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This what now?

Posted on August 19, 2022 by

At least try to keep your story straight, lads.

(Properly oldschool batshit-mad Telegraph article here, by this guy. Trailer here.)

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    1641 to “This what now?”

    1. Alison Brown says:

      “One state in which all we’re equal” sorry but just fell about laughing!! What planet is this guy on?

    2. Confused says:

      Such articles are useful in telling us what they really think – this guy is an insider. The article is full of lies, half truths and cunning spins – but the overall effect, when dissected is chilling. I talked about “moving the goalposts” – how about this

      I would suggest 75 per cent of seats in the Scottish Parliament in favour of independence, over a 10-year period, legally binding. Without that, a referendum should simply be impossible.

      Going back to Jerry Sadowitz, one of his traits was this “Wildean Tourettes” – often he just fired the bald truth straight at you like a bullet. It was “awful people” like him, and John Lydon, a few others – who were onto Jimmy Savile before anyone else (the nation’s favourite is riding little kids, but I am a bad guy for saying fuck a lot); the Cynics talent for telling us the truth we don’t want to hear. They boil it down to essence, they annihilate sophistry.

      What would Jerry Say about Indy?

      THEY -NEED- THE FUCKING OIL AND SCOTLAND IS GOING NOWHERE

      THEY DONT GIVE A FUCKING SHIT ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND IF YOU THINK YOU ARE WALKING OFF INTO THE SUNSET WITH 10 TRILLION WORTH OF HARD ASSETS ON A SHOW OF HANDS – YOU ARE DELUSIONAL

      THEY CALL US “PORRIDGE-WOGS” AND THINK WE ARE THE R3T4RDED COUSIN WHO COULD NOT SURVIVE WITHOUT THEM

    3. Neil Mackenzie says:

      A lot was made of Truss calling Sturgeon an attention seeker and nothing really, at all, of what she said IMMEDIATELY after that. Too many people just didn’t even notice that what she said required that Westminster is essentially the English government ruling over (and overruling) all of the rest of the UK as England’s imperial domain.

      She said “What we need to do is show the people of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales what we are delivering for them.”

      Who is “we” in that sentence?

    4. David says:

      When somebody shows you who they are, believe them.

      These ‘people’ will never change.

    5. Neil Mackenzie says:

      I thought they’d changed the title of Branagh’s Boris impersonation show to “This Sceptred Isle” after someone remembered England doesn’t actually have a government or a Prime Minister of its own.

    6. Luigi says:

      It’s all very well cancelling Scotland, NI and Wales for the sake of the union, but if we are all supposed to be British, then surely England also has to be cancelled? They wouldn’t dare go down that road. However, it’s the logical conclusion, and it’s getting increasingly difficult to continue that Great British tradition of conveniently sweeping the now rampant English nationalism under the carpet. Boris Johnson is soon to be replaced by an even more nationalistic Brexit PM, it ain’t looking good for the one-nation crowd. Not good at all.

      As some have already prophesised – English nationalism will destroy the union. English nationalism, not Scottish, not Irish not Welsh, will bring about the end of the UK. Unintentionally of course.

    7. Gregory Beekman says:

      Each new PM should stand on the steps of 10 Downing St and announce:

      “England is dead, long live the Union!”

    8. Republicofscotland says:

      I always found this a good way to sum up the union.

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUpXB9LWUAAaoUI?format=jpg&name=medium

    9. Gregory Beekman says:

      Oh dear. It seems, from the newspaper headlines at the time, that Scotland was not involved in World War 1, just England…

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/firstworldwar-national-newspapers

    10. Bob Mack says:

      England expects—– everything!!

    11. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Oh dear. It seems, from the newspaper headlines at the time, that Scotland was not involved in World War 1, just England…”

      Or WW2, Gregory.

      Unimpeachable Source: Dad’s Army title music.

      Sadly, Nicola may very well read Frost’s article and think, “Sounds reasonable to me. Oh, well, that’s me off to The UN then!”

    12. Bob Mack says:

      Subordinate entity with subordinate people who have only the rights the English want to bestow on them. Says it all really.

    13. PRJ says:

      These articles serve one purpose and that is to consolidate a mind set. In this case the Tory mindset.

    14. Gregory Beekman says:

      @Tinto

      Thank you!

      Yes, I forgot about the Dad’s Army theme with it’s lyric “if you think Old England’s done” but with a Union Jack as the symbol in the title sequence.

      Given shows now like to re-edit their past work (especially George Lucas), perhaps we should campaign for this to get changed too?

      PS Given cost-of-living crisis, Fraser was right: we’re all doomed!

    15. Scott says:

      “Nationalists are obsessional about language – so we need to use it correctly ourselves” – Lord Negotiator of nAtIoNaLiSmFoRmEnOtFoRtHeE

      Use of ‘obsessional’ in published works peaked in 1952;

      Use of ‘obsessive’ in published works peaked in 2012;

      The latter has always been more popular, since usage of both started rising c. 1900.

      My favourite bit of the article highlights the fragile sense of identity ‘England & the English’ has.

      “Meanwhile, I urge people in England not to give in to the “let them go”* argument. Partly because the break-up of the country would be a massive national humiliation.”

    16. Republicofscotland says:

      According to this there are now twenty-two folk Civil servants and SNP staff working on next years indyref, up form ten staff last year.

      “The “constitutional futures division” is the Scottish Government’s team for drawing up blueprints for an independent Scotland and is led by Brian Dornan who earns between £77,340 and £83,233.”

      Those “twenty-two” if you believe it that is will eat up the missing 600K in wages, and whatever else they spend cash on if this is anything to go by.

      “The salaries of other members of the team are also known, but Dornan is the only member senior enough to have his pay scale publicly linked to him.

      The Mail reports another member of the team, who remains anonymous, is in the C3 pay grade, meaning they earn between £75,446 to £77,340, though this employee is not mentioned in the freedom of information release, published on August 10.

      Six members are in the C2 pay grade, earning between £65,275 and £75,341 and nine others are on C1 salaries ranging from £49,861 and £62,167.

      One on the team is on a B3 salary of £39,659-£47,485, two are on salaries of between £31,542 and £36,129, which are B2 salaries and two are on B1 rates of between £27,237 and £30,039.

      The total annual cost for the team will be between £1,150,402 to £1,351,483.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20675411.scottish-independence-team-growing-government-figures-show%2F

    17. Pete Wishart says:

      You do not even live in Scotland Mr Campbell. Our strong contingent of SNP MPs are achieving much more for Scottish independence than you ever have.

    18. Republicofscotland says:

      A interesting article on unionism within Scotland and how its becoming more divisive.

      “Speaking at the Edinburgh International Book Festival, Murray Pittock said Unionists are struggling to identify as both Scottish and British in the same way they used to.

      The Glasgow University professor said society today is “dangerously” polarised, meaning Scots are much less likely to hold a sense of dual identity.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20674208.unionists-struggle-identify-scottish-british-murray-pittock-says%2F

    19. 100%Yes says:

      @ Pete Wishart

      I bet you can’t name one.

    20. Christopher Pike says:

      Scott says:
      19 August, 2022 at 3:40 pm
      “Nationalists are obsessional about language – so we need to use it correctly ourselves” – Lord Negotiator of nAtIoNaLiSmFoRmEnOtFoRtHeE

      Use of ‘obsessional’ in published works peaked in 1952;

      Use of ‘obsessive’ in published works peaked in 2012;

      The latter has always been more popular, since usage of both started rising c. 1900.

      My favourite bit of the article highlights the fragile sense of identity ‘England & the English’ has.

      “Meanwhile, I urge people in England not to give in to the “let them go”* argument. Partly because the break-up of the country would be a massive national humiliation.”

      ———————————————–

      Frost represents a style of unionism that does more damage to the unionist cause. Most unionist Scots are overwhelmingly pro-devolution and ending the devolution settlement would be the single biggest gift to the cause of independence. Secretly, the UK Government knows this and would prefer to hollow devolution out from within, so that devolution exists in name only. The fringe extremists who would celebrate the end of devolution are a hindrance to the unionist cause.

      He is right on one thing, the break up of the United Kingdom would be a massive humiliation for the British Government. The UK has a permeant seat on the UN security council, is a founding member of NATO, a member of the G7 and is (I think) the world’s 5th major economy. The UK still enjoys a high level of soft power around the world, thanks mainly to our pop cultural imports. Any PM or political party who presided over the break-up of the UK, would be finished, politically.

      If an independence referendum were to be held next year, then Project Fear Mark II would be an relentless juggernaut that would crush everything in its path – it would make the first Project Fear look mild and forgiving in comparison. Do you honestly think that this current SNP-Green coalition is capable of taking on the British state and winning?

    21. Haagsehighlander says:

      Pete Wishart:
      Our strong contingent of snp mp,s have been destroying more of the Scottish Independent movement,than you ever could.
      Fixed it for you.

    22. Breeks says:

      It’s a good sign that SALVO and the Claim of Right is beginning to register in the minds of the Unionist bullshitters and their despicable media.

      That’s the “end game” argument, and the argument they lose.

      If Scotland had had even a semi-competent Government in 2016, one that was willing to defend Scotland’s Constitutional rights rather than capitulate without a fuss, they’d have lost the argument five years ago and Scotland would already be an Independent Nation.

    23. Al-Stuart says:

      .

      Under the GRA (Government Recognition Act), I would like to assert my rights to SELF-IDENTIFY as a SCOTTISH PERSON, born in SCOTLAND and a citizen of MY country which is SCOTLAND.

      I like a lot of the English, Welsh and a Northern Ireland people and suggest they SELF-IDENTIFY as citizens of whichever country they like, but I am SCOTTISH thank you very much and I don’t need one of Imposter FM Sturgeon’s crayoned in certificates to prove the facts.

      Anyone such as Baron Batshit de Pfefel Frost who breaches my right to SELF IDENTIFY as SCOTTISH is a TERF (Terrible Extra Rectal Fuckkwit).

      Those who persist in denying the FACTS that I am a CIS-GINGER hominid (CIS meaning Completely Independent Scottish) can kiss my kilt clad cauld chocolate star.

      Oh please bring oan the day when these Wokewanks, fuckk richt back to the cult-farm they were inculcated into.

    24. Breeks says:


      Christopher Pike says:
      19 August, 2022 at 4:37 pm

      Do you honestly think that this current SNP-Green coalition is capable of taking on the British state and winning?

      What makes you think they’ll be in charge and leading the fight?

    25. tarisgal says:

      “the Acts of Union fused the participants into one state in which all were equal, first “Great Britain”, then the “United Kingdom”. Uh huh… so how did WM get more English Representatives than Scotland? I didn’t see him write that Article out for us?

      Pete Wishart: YOU do not live in Scotland Pete. You live down in Westminster – or have you forgotten? I don’t think you’ve got the hang of putting people down… And please tell us what SNP have done? There’s no record of it and there’s no evidence you have even started campaigning for this NEXT Referendum.

      Sorry but honestly, do you hear yourself? You sound like a wee green eyed monster of a 6 year old, ‘My daddy can beat up your Daddy’? For goodness sake, why not try PLAYING NICELY, like an ADULT you purport to be, would behave?

      Dear oh dear…

    26. Dorothy Devine says:

      Mr Wishart , open your eyes and look at what has NOT been done by the SNP in protecting Scotland and her assets – in that I include the people of Scotland.

      I am also incredibly interested in the finances – most especially in the 600,000 RING FENCED for Indy Ref 2.

      You are most welcome , I’m sure , to pop up here and answer questions – you are not welcome here to write facile criticism of the Blog owner.

      Now if you have come on here to encourage a ‘pile on’ that you can then complain and bleat about, like some in the BBBC , I would forget it.

    27. Ruby says:

      Pete Wishart says:
      19 August, 2022 at 4:03 pm

      You do not even live in Scotland Mr Campbell. Our strong contingent of SNP MPs are achieving much more for Scottish independence than you ever have.

      What have the SNP MPs who work in England achieved for Scotland?

      No section 30 seems to be forthcoming which to my mind is the only reason we voted for you to go and work in England.

      We didn’t vote for you to have a de facto referendum we voted to have a proper referendum.

      I presume you are Pete Wishart the SNP MP and not someone else called Pete Wishart who is taking the piss.

      If that is the case very well done for posting on Wings.

      If would be very good to hear more from you and hopefully get some answers.

      Stuart Campbell does not as you say live in Scotland and the big difference between him and yourself is that he is not an elected official being paid mega-bucks by us taxpayers so he has no obligation to achieve anything for Scotland. Making a comparison between him and SNP MPs is ridiculous

    28. Dorothy Devine says:

      P.S Yours for Scotland has some excellent but worrying pieces- the loser is Scotland and her people.

    29. Gregory Beekman says:

      Pete Wishart says:
      19 August, 2022 at 4:03 pm

      LOL! Whoever pretended to be Comfy Pete, excellent wind-up work!!!

    30. Ruby says:

      Correction to earlier post

      I presume you are Pete Wishart the SNP MP and not someone else calling himself Pete Wishart

      Pete Wishart as moniker and not Pete Wishart a real name.

      Of course his real name could be Pete Wishart but he’s just not the SNP MP

      Here’s the problem with a forum demanding real names.

      Pete Wishart is more than probably not an unique name could be many other Pete Wisharts out there on the WWW.
      It’s not as if you can copyright your name.

      We could end up with dozens of Pete Wisharts posting here and we wouldn’t know one from the other.

      The Herald did at one time demand everyone use their real name. Problems arose when there were two John MacLeods one of the John MacLeods had been posting for ages and got very annoyed when a new John MacLeod arrived on the scene. He was accused of identity theft and cloning the first John MacLeod.

      (I can’t remember what the exact name of these posters were. It was a very common name like John MacLeod.)

      Better being an anonymous coward than being just one among many and confusing everyone.

      To those demanding real names I would say ‘careful what you wish for’

      How would you cope with two of you?

    31. Ruby says:

      Gregory Beekman says:
      19 August, 2022 at 5:16 pm

      Pete Wishart says:
      19 August, 2022 at 4:03 pm

      LOL! Whoever pretended to be Comfy Pete, excellent wind-up work!!!

      Don’t be such a sceptic Gregory. He is Pete Wishart it has been confirmed on Twitter.
      You should continue to ask him questions.

    32. twathater says:

      Well what is really good is that we are accommodating more new Scots every year so Lard Frost will soon have all his wishes come true , just like Pike our New Scots have proven overwhelmingly that they are AGAINST independence so it follows that they will enthusiastically embrace Lard Frost’s proposals and may even have proposals of their own ready to treat anyone mentioning Scottish independence as a criminal offence
      Of course this has nothing to do with the energy crisis where Scotland is awash with resources nor does it have anything to do with England suffering massive drought conditions whilst Scotland has beautiful fresh water supplied by a nationalised water company
      But fear not our new Scots and our unionist brit/Scots will be convinced that we are stronger together and will believe that Lard Frost is merely pointing out that being a loved and much respected equal partner in this great united Kingdom where the world admires and respects (England)/Britain should be reward enough for those ungrateful jocks

    33. Robert Hughes says:

      Is anyone surprised at the opinion expressed by yon * ham-shanker * – Frost that is , idiot goat boy Wishart’s is what we’ve come to expect from Mr Westminster himself eg self-serving delusion and pathetic attempted point-scoring ….” You live in England ” like that’s somehow relevant . YOU spend most your time there you halfwit , farting about achieving ZERO of any worth to Scotland and anyone not lolling in the narcoleptic haze you and your Queen of Media Tarts have enGENDERed knows Stu has done more of actual value than the lot of you wretches combined . Beat it ya twat , your time will come , when your constituents see you for the lazy buffoon you are and sling you out .

      As I was saying …..is anyone surprised at the views expressed by Frost ? Some of us have been saying for a while , not only will the UK/English NEVER countenance another Scottish Independence Referendum , they are without doubt intent on making it either illegal or impossible to achieve .

      We know Nu SNP are not even worth considering as a vehicle to achieve our ambition , they’re a burnt-out wreck on the side of the motorway , sans wheels , sans engine , sans everything – they’re done in that respect . Totally done .

      So ALBA better wake-up soon , and start getting real about where we are , and what we’re up against . Being a wee bit better than the SNP is just not going to cut it . It needs to start telling people the truth ie Independence will have to be taken , wrenched from the rigor mortis grip of – let’s not fuck about here – England . Forget Referenda and Plebiscite – or any other type of – Elections . IT WON’T HAPPEN by those routes . Ever

    34. Garavelli Princip says:

      Tinto Chiel says:
      19 August, 2022 at 3:14 pm
      “Oh dear. It seems, from the newspaper headlines at the time, that Scotland was not involved in World War 1, just England…”

      Or WW2, Gregory.

      Just so TN. I’ve been reading through some of Churchill’s wartime speeches in the English Parliament (as Baghot invariably refers to it).

      I am yet to find one where he refers to the country he was nominally leading (actually he was pissed most of the time) as anything other than “ENGLAND”.

      This was the normal state of affairs until Scottish independence rumblings became ever louder throughout the fifties, sixties and seventies, when Brit politicos started to refer to the United Kingdom.

      But much more frequently they refer to ‘Britain’ – and when they do – as we all know – they actually mean England (to which there are three appendages which are in fact ENGLAND’s possessions.

      Actually, it’s good that Frosty the no-man and others are telling it like it is – it makes our case for us, and our job clearer.

    35. Tinto Chiel says:

      @RoS 4.06: despite Murray Pittock being Bojo’s debating partner in his uni days, his historical writings on the Jacobites in the last twenty years or so have been a complete eye-opener and have made mincemeat (along with The Stennis Historical Society) of previous Unionist misrepresentations of the Jacobite “rebellion” as a mainly Catholic, Gaelic-speaking bunch of doomed romantics.

      Both MP and TSHS stress pan-Scottish patriotism as a very important element in Jacobite resistance to the Hanoverians. This probably explains why, for ten years post-Culloden, Scotland was occupied from Stornaway to Gretna by a Redcoat army determined to stamp out entrenched Scottish resistance.

      “Prosperity to Scotland and No Union!”

    36. Garavelli Princip says:

      Garavelli Princip says:
      19 August, 2022 at 5:41 pm
      Tinto Chiel says:
      19 August, 2022 at 3:14 pm
      “Oh dear. It seems, from the newspaper headlines at the time, that Scotland was not involved in World War 1, just England…”

      Just so TN. – Sorry Cheil – that should have been TC, not TN (apologies)

    37. sarah says:

      @ Pete Wishart: I do hope you are the real Pete Wishart as in the MP because I would like to remind you that the parliamentarians should be enabling the voice of the sovereign people of Scotland to be heard. It is not the MPs/MSPs place to decide when we will be permitted to speak.

      It has been clear for some years that the Westminster system has broken down – the conventions are not obeyed by the executive – and as a result the safety and wellbeing of the vast majority of the populace has been endangered.

      It has been a matter of urgency for Scotland’s sovereignty to be asserted and now the situation is desperate. The MPs and MSPs must immediately gather to take the urgent actions needed to protect us:
      1. Gather to declare the truth of our Constitution and organise a constitutional convention accordingly.
      2. Approach the UN for support as a de facto colonised country.
      3. Use the powers that the Scottish Government has to make an immediate impact on the financial straits we are in i.e. empower local authorities to raise taxes on those who can pay them. And implement the Land Tax that Graeme MacCormick has been proposing for many years.

    38. Breastplate says:

      Ruby,
      There are definitely 2 Pete Wisharts, one who tells everybody what he’s going to do to achieve independence and the other who does fuck all about it.

    39. Breastplate says:

      Regarding needing a super majority for the next referendum, I think it’s only fair that the Union must achieve 75% of the vote, sauce for the goose.

    40. Garavelli Princip says:

      Tinto Chiel says:
      19 August, 2022 at 5:42 pm
      @RoS 4.06:
      “Murray Pittock being Bojo’s debating partner in his uni days, his historical writings on the Jacobites in the last twenty years or so have been a complete eye-opener and have made mincemeat (along with The Stennis Historical Society) of previous Unionist misrepresentations of the Jacobite “rebellion” as a mainly Catholic, Gaelic-speaking bunch of doomed romantics”.

      Once again TC you are spot-on. I knew Pittock quite well a few years back when were colleagues.

      Despite being “ever-so-posh” and a very senior academic , Pittock is a lifelong and eloquent proponent of Scottish independence – a true-believer – and a thoroughly decent man – in my experience.

    41. Grouser says:

      Here are some of the things the SNP MPs and SNP Govt and SNP Party have failed to achieve:
      Land Reform; a Constitution; a policy on currency; reform of council tax; a National Bank; a National Energy Company; failure to resist Brexit on behalf of Scotland; failure to increase support for Independence since 2014; failure to capitalise on the worst Tory PM ever; failure to have Alex Salmond convicted of anything.
      I’m going for me tea now or I could go on, and on, and on….

    42. Merganser says:

      Dorothy Devine @ 4.59. ‘ I’m also incredibly interested in the finances’. Me too.

      Did you see that the SNP accounts indicate fundraising raised the sum of £437,820?

      And how much did it cost to raise that amount?: £272,907. What on earth was that spent on? Where did it come from. Was it ‘unwoven’ from the previous accounts?

      Perhaps Mr. Wishart (real or pretendy) could assist.

    43. Republicofscotland says:

      Mr Wishart ‘4.03pm.

      Oh come on Pete, Stuart Campbell worked his backside off in the run up to the 2014 indyref, Wings was, and still is the indyref site to go to, such was the big part it played in pointing out the machinations of the British state and I might add converting many to the indy cause.

      We who voted for SNP MSPs and MPs would like to know why you and your party passed up the greatest opportunity for Scotland to leave this union, and that golden nugget of an opportunity was of course Brexit.

    44. Muscleguy says:

      @Pete Wishart
      What the SNP MPs should be engaged in is identifying which UK Bills and parts of Bills Scotland will need to portmanteau into a Scotland Bill to keep everything running. Keep people without licenses off the roads, ensure everyone has to obey the road signs etc. Keep all the rules intact (except who we have to pay taxes to) until such time as our independent parliament can get around to writing replacement Scottish Bills.

      That would be truly useful work.

    45. @Pete,

      have you ever read the Howard Spring book (1940) `Fame is the Spur`
      or seen the film of the book with Michael Redgrave as the radical British Labour MP who is seduced by the trapings of Westminster and becomes a British Labour Lord.

    46. Republicofscotland says:

      Tinto Chiel @5.42pm.

      That’s why the Ordnance Survey was created to hunt down and kill Scots such as Highlanders and Jacobites.

      I recall years ago that the big chiefs at the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum had Jacobite swords removed from display because words were etched into them for Scottish independence.

    47. Liz says:

      @petewishart no you havent.
      You have done nothing except divide the indy movement.

      Ales Salmond is a hero, he united the disparate groups and handed 125k members, a full bank balance on a plate to Sturgeon, who has wasted EIGHT years and SEVEN mandates.
      You’re a fake and a fraud.
      BTW isn’t that statement of yours about where the Rev lives, anglophobic?

    48. Ruby says:

      Does anyone remember Lord Leveson calling the UK Parliament The English parliament and Alex Salmond saying ‘I like that’ and Lord Leveson slapping his his forehead!

    49. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Garavelli Princip: “Just so TN. – Sorry Cheil – that should have been TC, not TN (apologies)”

      Dinna fash, GP: it’s a daft handle onywise. My favourite misprint on here is Tonto Chief. Would that I were that man 🙂 !

      “I knew Pittock quite well a few years back when were colleagues.” That must have been genuinely enlightening. It’s interesting to me that both an academic like Murray and those dismissed as unreliable and unbalanced types (aka TSHS and the likes of “troublesome” academics e.g. Stuart McHardy) stress the Scottishness of Jacobitism.

      Perhaps one of the reasons he has escaped Unionist attack for his historical output is because of his extensive academic background also in Scottish literature (who cares? think the “Scots is slang” proponents) and, as you put it, his refined appearance (unlike wot I am, an’ that).

      I look forward to his future publications.

    50. Republicofscotland says:

      “Project Fear Mark II would be an relentless juggernaut that would crush everything in its path – it would make the first Project Fear look mild and forgiving in comparison. Do you honestly think that this current SNP-Green coalition is capable of taking on the British state and winning?”

      Pike.

      You forgot to add that the bias Civil service would once again work against Scotland dissolving the union, the British state would get up to more machinations than it did in Kenyan politics or the terrible lies and smear campaign against Jeremy Corbyn.

      With all that including the British states Fifth Columns at Holyrood, it would appear that UDI is the only way forward you’ve made the case for it quite clear.

    51. Tinto Chiel says:

      @RoS 6.33: quite so but I didn’t know the bit about Jacobite swords in Kelvingrove. Tasty!

      Every day’s a school day on Wings…..

    52. Merganser says:

      Dorothy Devine and Pete Wishart

      By way of comparison. According to the accounts:

      For every £1.00 the SNP on fundraising, they raise the sum of £1.50.

      For every £1.00 the Conservatives spend they raise the sum of£7.00.

      For every £1.00 Labour spend, they raise the sum of £5.00.

      Are the SNP so inefficient at fundraising? Or are they just so good at creative accounting?

    53. Dorothy Devine says:

      Merganser , I’m plumping for creativity.

      As a matter of interest where does HMRC figure in the finances of a political party?

    54. Geri says:

      I’ve said for years that these tossers will pass a new Act of Union WITHOUT any of the other three Nations being consulted. We’ll get locked in Catalonia style where no one can ever, ever secede.
      I was assured by Marky that ‘just couldn’t happen without consent’ Aye, & by consent they’ll mean the numbers to pass it through parliament – if it even makes it that far.

      & All while 56 elected DUDS + the Hollywood crew did fk all but talk shite for 8yrs.

      Pappy – why didn’t Scotland seize the day?

      Fannies, son. Fannies. Literally.

    55. Merganser says:

      Dorothy Devine.

      The only thing I know is that they have some sort of VAT exemption.

    56. Breeks says:

      I have my doubts you’re actually speaking to the real Pete Wishart. Far too many pesky Albaists around here for Pete’s liking, all saying hateful things about him and Nicola, and ruining Nicola’s great secret Masterplan that cannot be mentioned. Sigh.

      Breastplate says:
      19 August, 2022 at 5:49 pm
      Ruby,
      There are definitely 2 Pete Wisharts, one who tells everybody what he’s going to do to achieve independence and the other who does fuck all about it…

      Seems there may be more than two Pete Wisharts; one who scoffs at a Plebiscite Election, and the other who thinks it’s a great idea… Maybe it’s a split personality thing. Gollum. Gollum.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/remembering-pete-wishart/

    57. Geri says:

      Gregory Beekman & TINTO

      No one took part IN WW1 or WW2

      It was only England who defeated the Nazis. No one else.

      There was some poll being discussed on the radio yesterday ‘What makes you proud to be British ‘

      NHS was 1st place
      2nd Was their History

      Theft, bloodshed, slavery..jeez!

    58. John Main says:

      Perhaps worth remembering that “Project Fear”, when applied prior to the EU referendum, on stilts, did not work. Ordinary people were smart enough to see through the BS.

      Well, obviously it worked in Scotland, but Brexit was always a UK decision. All in, or all out.

      Maybes we Scots just need to collectively grow a pair? Like those English some of us detest?

      Here’s how I see it. Those on the Indy side who constantly bang on about how Scotland should never have been taken out of the EU are simply handing ammunition to those who insist that Scotland should never be taken out of the UK.

      Those on the Indy side who constantly bang on about how resource-rich and potentially wealthy Scotland is and will be need to be 100% committed to Scotland going it alone as a free, sovereign nation.

      The undecided and the apolitical are getting mixed messages from the Indy movement. It’s hardly surprising they are swithering. It’s long past time to make things clear.

      And for Republic, nobody gives a flying fuck about Kenya. They have been independent for near 59 years, and one of their people even made Great Chief Satan. If they are still fucked, then that’s down to them. Get real FFS.

    59. carjamtic says:

      Disgusted by the whole lot of them, unable or unwilling to police themselves, this has led to no trust what so ever, however, happy to give it one last go.

      It’s amazing how these so called intelligent people, have suddenly got a lot to say on this matter, lets hope for the safety of all journalist’s, the powers at be bring in proper regulation…….to the industry and that starts at the very top.

      The Leveson enquiry exposed everyone (including journalists) to the shame that exists within the industry, ignorance now, being no excuse, even in our more recent, local history, we have many examples of this type of gutter press (it is so disgusting, I wont elaborate on it) but maybe the journalists (like the FM) were simply intoxicated by the all the publicity and took leave of their senses (we all know, that level of addiction can be a terrible, ugly thing).

      The message is simple and clear, sort yourselves out, before bleating about the general public’s behaviour, yes no journalist should ever, ever be put in any danger, but the same argument applies vice versa, it seems that everyone still needs some sort of protection even now,from these low lives within the press industry (they also inhibit the good guys) and as it turns out, we discover, we also need a remarkably high level of shielding from their liberty taking enablers.

      When the journalist becomes the story, instead of reporting the story, we know it’s a sign of failure, deliberate or accidental it doesn’t matter and it should never happen, ever (particularly after everything that we have been through and are about to go through) to prevent this in the future, we need you to all raise your game and get better, get a lot f#@£ing better).

      Politicians and journalists, you do not have an invisibility cloak we see you and you should not need reminding that for every twisted arsehole out there…there is a threaded screw, so some advice, keep doing your job and do it well, to the best of your ability, but please, thats a pretty pretty please, with sugar on top, stop taking liberties and stop forcing it, truth be told, it just makes you look like really bad actors or….and as god is my judge…….twisted F#@£ing Arseholes.

    60. Skip_NC says:

      Dorothy Devine, if any organization indulges in “trading” with a third party, Corporation Tax is due. Also, investment income and gains are taxable. For instance, when I was a football referee in Yorkshire, I helped a few local associations in keeping their books straight and with tax filings. At the time, the inspector at Leeds 4 tax office who handled all the associations etc had a de minimis threshold below which he would not assess tax. However, if an association started buying stuff to sell to the general public, he would assess, because, at that point, they are acting like a business.

      As an aside, are we really sure that “Pete Wishart” on this thread really is Pete Wishart, MP? When I saw it earlier, I assumed it was just some mildly humorous trolling.

    61. John Main says:

      @Geri 8:05

      Anywhere you care to examine the history of the British Empire you will find the Scots.

      Yup, theft, bloodshed, slavery. Jeez.

      You maybes want to re-write history so that “we wis forced tae dae it”, but most rational people will just laugh at you.

    62. Merganser says:

      Show us the money.

      C’mon the real Mr Wishart or any other SNP official reading this (we know you all do). Tell us from where you got the £272,907 to spend on fundraising. And more to the point, where did it go?

      Are you satisfied it was money well spent to raise such a paltry amount?

    63. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Geri: strange that after all the Covid applause there’s little money for the NHS? But 37 billion (yes, that’s 37 thousand million) for Dido Harding’s (obscene versions are available) Track and Trace moola straight into the bloated coffers of Tory spivs and barrow-boys.

      Frankly, Geri, I suspect you’re one of these types 😉 :

      https://www.amazon.co.uk/Damn-Rebel-Bitches-Women-45/dp/1840182989/ref=sr_1_1?crid=989XCVEC1YR&keywords=damned+rebel+bitches&qid=1660936290&sprefix=damned+rebel+bitches%2Caps%2C69&sr=8-1

    64. Robert Hughes says:

      Breeks says:
      19 August, 2022 at 7:57 pm

      ” I have my doubts you’re actually speaking to the real Pete Wishart. ”

      What ! you mean there’s a real Pete Wishart ? Who’s that guy that’s been hingin aboot Westminster for the last 80 years then ?

      The surreal Pete Wishart ?

      Whether it was or not , diznae matter , we know he’s an avid reader of WOS , gives him something to do between eating , drinking n regular naps : plus , gave me an opportunity tae slag the bam 🙂

    65. Dorothy Devine says:

      Skip_NC and Merganser , thanks for the information.

    66. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      You want independence? Have patience.

      There is very little water in England and Wales.

      Global warming is going to get worse leaving much less water in England and Wales.

      Scotland has plenty of water, and oil and gas and renewables.

      The Tories, just to increase investment you understand will privatise Scottish Water, meter the Scots of course, then pump lots of high quality water darn sarf making more profits.

      This May irk the Scots sufficiently to eventually make them think about independence.

      Unlikely I hear you say? With a rabid right winger like Truss in charge I say it’s likely.

    67. John Main says:

      @Tinto Chiel 8:21

      Good post. I will admit I suspected your numbers at first, but they are correct.

      Question: 37 billion pounds, divided by the number of U.K. households. How much towards the leccy bills of every UK home could that money have provided?

    68. Geri says:

      John

      Or, better still, cut out the sliding middle man completely & then see where we are with our full pay packet intact.

    69. John Main says:

      J Smoothpiece

      Let me correct you.

      There is no shortage of water in England & Wales.

      There is, however, far too many people, with more arriving daily.

      We Scots, living in what is just about the least densely populated, habitable region of Europe, have far more pressing concerns than who will grab our water.

      As the nativists have already noticed!

      But not the Scottish Government, strangely enough. All new Scots welcome.

    70. Tinto Chiel says:

      @John Main: yes, it’s an obscene amount of money, particularly when you think of the tsunami of misery awaiting the vulnerable in Scotland this winter, and this in a country which is awash with oil, gas and renewable energy.

      You often say, “Show Scots the money and they’ll vote for independence” and I can’t really think of a better example but there’s no MSM to get out the message and as for the SNP?

      Well, Nikla’s more interested in pronouns and defending journalists like Cook who had badgered her relentlessly over Frenchgate.

    71. Pete Wishart says:

      Alex Salmond is yesterday’s man and many Alba supporters do not realise how toxic the man is now and indeed how damaging to the independence movement ALBA is overall due to their obsession with transphobia.

      Nicola Sturgeon has done a huge service to the independence movement and the SNP is more popular with younger voters than ever before in the real world.

    72. Mark Boyle says:

      Pete Wishart says:
      19 August, 2022 at 4:03 pm

      You do not even live in Scotland Mr Campbell. Our strong contingent of SNP MPs are achieving much more for Scottish independence than you ever have.

      You’ve achieved about as much for Scottish independence as Jaws achieved for seaside holidays, champ.

      BTW try asking your pal Ian Blackford sometime about his “consultancy” of a certain company whose CEO at the time on the day before the Independence vote told its workers in a meeting of all staff that if the vote went “Yes” it would be relocating down south – which clearly didn’t bother him as he spent many merry years getting paid for a few hours work a month the equivalent of a year’s salary for most of its workforce … a company which incidentally had its staff having to work in their office as per normal during the Covid lockdown whilst the ENTIRE management team worked “remotely”.

      As one of those still working there told me, “if this is what an independent Scotland is going to be like under him and Sturgeon – a place where the business class gets to s***e over the rest of us twice as much as currently – I’d sooner have fking Thatcher back from the grave!”

    73. Mark Boyle says:

      Pete Wishart says:
      19 August, 2022 at 8:50 pm

      Nicola Sturgeon has done a huge service to the independence movement.

      Don’t tell me she’s resigned?!?!?!?

    74. Geri says:

      Jason

      I’d doubt it. Remember the dog food salesman & his lottery win analogy regards Scotland oil wealth?

      It would mean of us not to share.
      I dunno where these tossers come from. Do you think if England struck oil they’d share?

      P.S. If that the real pension pishy Pete. Fuck off.
      We all remember your early days where you fapped yerself cross-eyed over Wings everyday. It’s where you found your information cause you sure as shit didn’t come up with any of your own!

    75. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @John Main (8.33) –

      I understand your being sceptical of the number TC quoted. I’ve had friends (and a very close relative) openly scoff and laugh it away. (And I was mistakenly telling them it was £27 billion.)

      What evidence did we ever see of that system? Not a lot that I can remember. But there’s been no call, from Labour or anyone else, for an inquiry.

      The level of criminality is so off the scale that people just cannot process it. And the criminals know that because they’ve had plenty of practice going back centuries.

    76. Geri says:

      Does pension Pete have a list of all her achievements towards independence?

      Answers on the back of a stamp.

    77. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 8.10 pm

      Maybes we Scots just need to collectively grow a pair?

      For all the talk about being sovereign Scots, in the end no people that really wants to be independent enough can be held by another in a union power against its will. If they ultimately lack the will, or simply don’t think things are bad enough to exert their self determination, nobody else is going to do it for them.

      Whether in the end the majority do it by taking to the streets and declaring UDI, or withdrawing from Westminster and calling some Constituent Assembly, or use plebiscitary elections or a referendum, I suspect it is going to take some kick up the arse to get the majority we need to make it happen.

      Maybe the the upcoming economic downturn will change enough minds. You’ve said often enough in the past the indy movement has to convince people it will make them better off. Perhaps that’s so.

      it may also be the case that given the upcoming shitemare we just have to use the Reverse Project Fear and convince enough folk that the risks of staying in the union now outweigh the risks of indy, and the potential benefits of indy outweigh those of “Global Britain” and Truss or Sunak as PM.

      Those that predicted an uptick in support for indy post brexit were disappointed: maybe things will be different in a few months? I’m not sure what it will take to provoke some movement to be honest. There has to be a constituency of “soft No” voters who may – finally? – be open to switching. Whether it leads to La Diada type scenes, or a storming of Bute House, I have my doubts. I’d love to see more fire in the belly of the movement and a Norwegian 1905 level of support…but I’ll still take 55%!

    78. Effigy says:

      We are all equally but most investment must go to South East England.

      The equally shared U.K. Bank is called the Bank of England but Scotland can’t use it if England says so.

      We are all equal and yet 3 out of 4 U.K. nations got to Brexit or Remain as they voted.
      Not allowed for Scotland.

      We are all equal but only England always gets the governing party they voted for.

      We are all equal but Scotland’s elected first leader must be ignored.

      We are all equal but Glasgows Commonwealth games did not get 1 penny from Westminster but Birmingham’s games received £780 million.

      We are not equal but we would so Scotland become superior to Englands fascist corruption that is going to starve and freeze its citizens to gorge the rich.

    79. Saffron Robe says:

      Republicofscotland says:

      “I recall years ago that the big chiefs at the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum had Jacobite swords removed from display because words were etched into them for Scottish independence.”

      That’s true, Republic of Scotland. I didn’t know they had been removed, but can understand why. I grew up near Kelvingrove Art Gallery and spent my childhood there. I remember seeing the swords and the inscriptions and being deeply moved. I realised then how our true history is occluded by what we are taught and how strong the feeling against the Union, and the desire to remain independent, was from the very beginning, and which resonates all the way to the present day.

    80. crisiscult says:

      Good to have you more regularly posting Rev. Your posts are great for 3 main reasons, but 2 of those reasons I’ll mention for succinctness:

      1. They are easy to understand i.e. they are well crafted
      2. The mere fact of you posting annoys some people and the people you annoy are tw@s.

    81. Geri says:

      John,
      Oops! Apologies. I thought you were talking about GERS figures there.

      £37 billion. Eye watering amount. They get away with it because they can. + All the Tory mates hotline direct regards protective equipment. It was a Tory free for all.

    82. Republicofscotland says:

      “I grew up near Kelvingrove Art Gallery and spent my childhood there.”

      Me too Saffron, I’m old enough to remember the putting course just behind it, I spent many a weekend as a kid in the gallery.

    83. @Pete,

      What is a woman ?

    84. Geri says:

      Re the Swords.

      Just an aside…

      Remember too in 2014 the Royal Mint was forbidden to mint the anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn £2 coin.

      Lizzie & Cameron decided it’d only noise up the Nats during indyref.

      They went on to mint a plethora of war coins instead.

    85. Saffron Robe says:

      Republicofscotland says:

      “Me too Saffron, I’m old enough to remember the putting course just behind it, I spent many a weekend as a kid in the gallery.”

      Yes, the putting course was great. I enjoyed the odd game of croquet too! Another fond memory is the rowing boats at Bingham’s pond. It was such a trek to get there. Simple pleasures in those days!

    86. Ruby says:

      No Outlander on TV.

    87. Tinto Chiel says:

      Since we have some Kelvingrove habitués here: am I wrong in remembering many more interesting exhibits (particularly dinosaurs for my wee granddaughters) and a much more coherent approach to displays?

      Nowadays we seem to have meaningless melanges with a D-Day Spitfire and weird Big Heads suspended with no context (I largely absolve the art gallery from these criticisms) and little which makes any sense.

      Admittedly, I was a bit pissed off because I took my three year old GDD to see the dinosaurs of my memory and all she saw was one of their eggs in a denuded section of the museum.

      It seems to have succumbed to The Curse of The People’s Palace and the whole Elspeth King debacle, i.e. a lack of a coherent historical/social “narrative”.

    88. Skip_NC says:

      Scot Finlayson, the word “Woman” means whatever the user chooses it to mean – neither more nor less.

      Of course, the thoughtful person may question whether one can make words mean so many different things.

      One who believes that words can mean many things might be tempted to retort that the question is “which is to be master – that is all.”

    89. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC (9.42) –

      From recent reports, it seems that the Burrell Collection is now ultra-woke.

    90. robbo says:

      Pete Wishart says:
      19 August, 2022 at 8:50 pm
      Alex Salmond is yesterday’s man and many Alba supporters do not realise how toxic the man is now and indeed how damaging to the independence movement ALBA is overall due to their obsession with transphobia.

      Nicola Sturgeon has done a huge service to the independence movement and the SNP is more popular with younger voters than ever before in the real world.

      ————–

      Obsession with transphobia. What the fuck are you talking about ya nutter? Women have vaginas and uteruses ,a womb and can bare children of the human species that keeps us going. They don’t have penises because men do and their job is to be the impregnator to the female to carry the cycle on. It’s not fucking rocket science ya clown.

      Nicola Sturgeon has destroyed the Indy movement and you’re part of it. Rot in hell ya wank.
      You couldnae lace Alex Salmond s bits ya fud. You’re a cunt . Fuck off.

    91. Geri says:

      I’m reminded of Amber Turds Pledge Vs Donation gymnastics.

      It seems we all need a new dictionary.

    92. Geri says:

      Robbo LOL

      How did that get past moderation? ??

    93. robbo says:

      Maybe because it’s the truth Geri.

    94. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Geri (10.00) –

      ‘How did that get past moderation?’

      He didn’t mention ‘the war’.

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    95. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Skip_NC 9.49: strangely, I was thinking recently about the word “gender” and why it exists at all. Seems to me we have a perfectly serviceable word in “sex”. My slightly out-dated Chambers dictionary has the definition of the former as : “a distinction of words roughly answering to sex”.

      I’m not a philologist or whatever but I wonder if “gender” arose because of prudishness regarding the earlier and earthier term “sex”. Of course, “gender’ gives wiggle-room to the dodgy types w/o a Gender Recognition Certificate but it seems a completely superfluous term to me.

      Or am I missing something?

      @Ian Brotherhood 9.53: well, at its best formerly it was just a rich man’s collection without discrimination of focus but sadly it has lived down to your description.

      At least it’s free (apart from the car park).

    96. Tinto Chiel says:

      I meant “discrimination OR focus”: thick old fingers.

    97. Saffron Robe says:

      Tinto Chiel says:

      “Since we have some Kelvingrove habitués here: am I wrong in remembering many more interesting exhibits (particularly dinosaurs for my wee granddaughters) and a much more coherent approach to displays?”

      Yes, they totally spoilt it, Tinto. For years the paintings were arranged classically and tastefully with adequate spacing between them, and then all of a sudden they were jumbled up and crushed together as if it was an offence to leave any empty space on the wall. It was as if someone was selling paintings at a bazaar rather than exhibiting them in an art gallery!

    98. @Skip_NC,

      `the word “Woman” means whatever the user chooses it to mean – neither more nor less`

      does this apply to all words or just the word `woman`.

    99. auld highlander says:

      Up at Culloden battlefield visitor centre is one really horrible exhibit.
      A medal which was struck in 1746 with a sword wielding cumberland (spit) and on the reverse a hangman at the gallows stringing up an unfortunate rebel along with two other unfortunates who are on their knees pleading in front of another rope holding executioner.
      The inscription reads. ‘More rebels a comeing.’

      https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/C_M-8541

    100. Derek says:

      Ruby says:
      19 August, 2022 at 5:28 pm

      Here’s the problem with a forum demanding real names.
      .
      .

      I’ve never had a problem with that; I use the same name – my first – wherever I go.

    101. Saffron Robe says:

      Pete Wishart says:

      “You do not even live in Scotland, Mr Campbell.”

      Says the man who spends all his time living it up in London.

      What Pete Wishart meant to say at 8:50 pm:

      “Nicola Sturgeon is yesterday’s woman and many SNP supporters do not realise how toxic the woman is now and indeed how damaging to the independence movement the SNP is overall due to their obsession with transphobia.

      “Alex Salmond has done a huge service to the independence movement and Alba is more popular with younger voters than ever before in the real world.”

    102. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If the real Comfy Pete has been commenting here will he not get into big trouble with Nicola? I thought she made a point, several years ago, of telling abody to have nothing to do with this place?

    103. McDuff says:

      Pete Wishart
      Tell me exactly what has the SNP done in the past 8 years to further the cause of independence apart from react to events. Go on tell me.
      When interviewed by the MSM do you take the opportunity to remind Scots of Scotland`s true wealth by listing its rich resources? Do you remind them that being vastly outnumbered by an English electorate renders our votes meaningless, if so time and dates please.
      As far as Stuart Campbell is concerned he is a Titan compared to you and has done more than anyone to defend and promote the cause of independence.
      You are a disgrace to this country.

    104. Gareth says:

      There is some corner of a foreign field that is forever England”

      The Rupert Brooke line from his famous war poem was instilled into Scots for years. No one appeared to notice the bloody insult to Scotland’s dead who fought for freedom and democracy now denied us. Pathos and patriotism is England’s possession alone.

    105. Josef Ó Luain says:

      https://www.sahistory.org.za/archive/imperial-duty-john-ruskin-oxford-8-february-1870-0#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20destiny%20now,and%20the%20grace%20to%20obey.

      Well worth a scan methinks. Penned by a “violent Tory of the old school”, as John Ruskin described himself.

    106. Roger says:

      Tinto Chiel says:
      19 August, 2022 at 10:16 pm

      I’m not a philologist or whatever but I wonder if “gender” arose because of prudishness regarding the earlier and earthier term “sex”. Of course, “gender’ gives wiggle-room to the dodgy types w/o a Gender Recognition Certificate but it seems a completely superfluous term to me.

      I remember reading somewhere that it became popular because in the US they found the word ‘sex’ to be too much for their tender sensibilities. It’s actually a borrowing from grammar. In many languages words have a gender – male, female neuter – but it doesn’t exactly correspond to ‘sex’. For example, in German the word for ‘turnip’ is feminine, but the word for ‘girl’ is neuter…

    107. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Gareth (12.02) –

      You were a more regular contributor here back when the British Establishment was ‘celebrating’ the centenary of the start of the so-called ‘Great War’.

      So that would’ve been sometime in 2014?

      Anyway, I can’t pinpoint the specific posts, but the discourse btl in this place was just extraordinary. It was real ‘education’.

      The sheer horror of what those young men (mostly teenagers) went through is still beyond imagination. And the political machinations behind it all? FFS, we still don’t know it all, and probably never will.

      This, more than anything else, is what makes me despair. The fact that we still don’t really understand why all those boys – from so many nations – were corralled and sent off to certain death.

      No reason. Just ‘Duty’.

      ???

      But all of the information is there to make sense of it.

      And god help anyone who really tries.

      🙁

    108. Gareth says:

      You were a more regular contributor here back when the British Establishment was ‘celebrating’ the centenary of the start of the so-called ‘Great War’” Ian 12.30

      Yes. the British State piled on the ‘one nation’ propaganda with a trowel and they have sustained the output ever since at great cost to the taxpayer. As expected, the monarchy pitched in too in every which way within their power.

      The British State is corrupt, colonmial and rotten to the core.

    109. Roger says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      You don’t want to think too deeply about the fact that people put up with it – for years. It’s worrying what people will actually tolerate – even if it’s insane.
      It’s a great strength and a great weakness…

    110. David says:

      Tinto @ 9:42 –
      Yes, sadly the Kelvingrove Museum found out that their Dinosaur exhibits had been stolen, and so they were sent back to their rightful home in (reads notes) the Independent Republic of Dinotopia…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXtAyv9kd0M

      😉

    111. Mark Boyle says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      20 August, 2022 at 12:30 am

      @Gareth (12.02) –

      You were a more regular contributor here back when the British Establishment was ‘celebrating’ the centenary of the start of the so-called ‘Great War’.

      So that would’ve been sometime in 2014?

      Anyway, I can’t pinpoint the specific posts, but the discourse btl in this place was just extraordinary. It was real ‘education’.

      The sheer horror of what those young men (mostly teenagers) went through is still beyond imagination. And the political machinations behind it all? FFS, we still don’t know it all, and probably never will.

      This, more than anything else, is what makes me despair. The fact that we still don’t really understand why all those boys – from so many nations – were corralled and sent off to certain death.

      No reason. Just ‘Duty’.

      ???

      But all of the information is there to make sense of it.

      And god help anyone who really tries.

      “the political machinations behind it all? FFS, we still don’t know it all, and probably never will.”

      WW1’s pretty straightforward – the conflict arouse from the ludicrous series of military alliances the various competing European Empires got themselves entangled within, not in order to prevent war, but in order to ensure victory when the next feeble excuse for one inevitably broke out.

      (That said, it didn’t stop the Italians reneging on their Triple Alliance treaty obligations and then stabbing Austria-Hungary in the back because they thought they’d get more booty with the Entente – with disastrous consequences).

      Despite the best attempts of the likes of the Rothschilds to popularise the idea amongst the political classes that “War Is A Ready Bad Idea In The Economic Long Term As Well As Short, Stupid!” – the worked example being the ruinous American Civil War, which was lost on the Europeans because “Well Civil Wars Are Ruinous By Default, D’UH!” – the old myths about war being a glorious “game” still had a popular hold (despite the horrors of the Crimean War and the appalling treatment of its veterans), particularly amongst the working classes as some sort of “glorious” alternative to the drudgery of agricultural life or the horrors of early industrialisation (to say nothing of mining!).

      Notions of “Duty” and “patriotism” were little more than the excuses the working classes gave themselves as much as the upper classes gave them for marching off to slaughter their fellow Christians as they had since time immemorial (and those who weren’t for that matter …) Anyone familiar with the history of the witch crazes will know of the bloodthirst of the mob’s tendency to override basic common sense.

    112. David says:

      Dangerous, no-go areas for journalists:
      Afghanistan
      Syria
      Perth Concert Hall

    113. Saffron Robe says:

      In many ways it was the First World War that precipitated the Easter Rising. As James Connolly wrote:

      “All these mountains of Irish dead, all these corpses mangled beyond recognition, all these arms, legs, eyes, ears, fingers, toes, hands, all these shivering putrefying bodies and portions of bodies once warm, living and tender parts of Irish men and youths – all these horrors in Flanders or the Gallipoli Peninsula, are all items in the price Ireland pays for being part of the British Empire.”

      “We went out to break the connection between this country and the British Empire, and to establish an Irish Republic. We believed that the call we then issued to the people of Ireland was a nobler call, in a holier cause, than any call issued to them during this war, having any connection with the war. We succeeded in proving that Irishmen are ready to die endeavouring to win for Ireland those national rights which the British Government has been asking them to die to win for Belgium. As long as that remains the case, the cause of Irish freedom is safe.”

    114. StuartM says:

      Re Churchill, I was astonished to discover that from 1908-1922 he was one of the 2 members for the safe Liberal constituency of Dundee, yet as far as I can see the only times he ever went there was during election campaigns. He certainly didn’t live there and rarely seemed to stray very far from the vicinity of London. You’d think that representing Scots constituents in Parliament would have given him a sensitivity to the concerns of other nations in the Union, but no. (He also as wartime PM acted as if the rest of the Empire should subordinate their own interests to his)

      Incidentally, my cousin who lives in St Albans in London’s outer suburbs came out to Sydney a few years ago to see her son and grandson. She mentioned that she was highly impressed that Australian MPs had very visible public offices whereas she said that British MPs were invisible to their constituents except at election time. I looked up the MP for St Albans and sure enough the only contact details were c/o Houses of Parliament. This was the woman who abandoned her duties to go on “I’m a Celebrity” around that time – not a poster child for British democracy.

      Australian MPs both State and Federal on getting elected set up their electorate offices in High street shopfronts, usually in high visibility positions such as main roads or shopping precincts. Here are a few photos I found using Google:

      content://com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/1660956234367795621235.jpg

      content://com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/16609563144641369152790.jpg

      content://com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/1660956366780795489278.jpg

      content://com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/166095639815668730786.jpg

      Failure to set up a public office would be seen as hiding from the voters. While the MP necessarily can’t spend all their time there, especially if Parliament is sitting and doubly so for Ministers and Shadow Ministers) their electorate staff are there Monday to Friday to help constituents.

      It’s also expected here for MPs to actually live in the electorate they represent and candidates who don’t currently live there typically promise to move there if elected. For the last Federal Election the Labor Party imposed blonde American Kristina Keneally (an ex-State Labor Premier) on a southwestern working-class electorate displacing the local branch’s pick, despite Keneally being resident on high-priced Scotland Island in Sydney’s north. To make matters worse, in a district with a high percentage of Vietnamese residents not only was the Labor candidate she’d elbowed aside Vietnamese but so were the Liberal and independent candidates in the election. Predictably the voters elected the high-profile independent in what the Labor Party and Keneally thought was a “safe” seat.

      So for those of you in the UK how visible are your MPs and MSPs between elections? Do they live in the constituency and do you know where their constituency office is?

    115. StuartM says:

      Hmm, I thought those links would post as photos but apparently not. They don’t even post as HTML links. Sorry about that.

      However if you google “Australia MP’s office” you can see what I mean.

    116. StuartM says:

      @Skip_NC

      Not sure if you saw my replies to you on the previous thread so here they are again.

      ********************
      You beat me to it about the Intangibles. Regarding the Cash at Bank vs Creditors I got the distinct impression from the 2020 accounts that they had deliberately held back on paying creditors until after year-end so as to pump up the Bank balance and give the impression to the members that the finances were all fine and dandy. As we used to say in business school – figures don’t lie but liars can figure!

      Loans from Executive Management 60K. This can only be from Pete Murrell and the reason for him lending money to the SNP (probably not taking his salary in cash) is that the SNP is struggling to pay its bills. If that becomes general knowledge to the membership Murrell would be forced out and lose his cushy job, hence the loan. It also fits with the panic appeals to the members to pay their subs in advance. Deduct the 60K and the creditors and the bank balance is in the red to the tune of 30K. That wouldn’t look good.

      I haven’t had time yet to analyse the accounts but going on what you and others have said there seems to have been an uncharacteristic outbreak of candour in the SNP. Reporting membership numbers and Murrell’s salary? These have previously been closely guarded secrets to protect the guilty. I can only assume the Electoral Commission has given them no option.

    117. steve davison says:

      No plan and no solidarity in the quest for nationhood it would have been better not to have taken the poison chalice of devolved powers in the first place if all it becomes is soap box to shout hatred from
      instead you have a SNP that has performed poorly and let down the people of Scotland ,solid governance and stable policies showing its ability to self govern instead of promising a utopia to every fringe element in society and offering a future where everything is free and everyone is valued
      So the frustration and the lack of progress brings about a lashing out at the great Satan that is all English people whatever there station in life
      To back it up reams of facts that People are cherry picking from history suit there version of the past that exclude the part some Scots played and profited in building and maintaining the British empire as well as those who sold out Scottish nationhood in the first place for there own profit
      Nationalism has a dark side that i fear to many are willing to entertain in the quest

    118. StuartM says:

      @Merganser

      The detail of what makes up Fundraising Income and Fundraising Costs can be found in Notes 4 and 12 respectively.

      Fundraising income is
      Independence Magazine 95603
      Raffles 342217

      Fundraising Costs
      Fundraising. 139583
      Independence Magazine 99746
      Election Appeal. 33578

      If you’re running raffles you have to offer prizes and presumably that makes up a fair amount of the 139K “Fundraising” cost. But note the weasel wording – it could include anything. Plus the Election Appeal was surely for donations for the 2021 Election, the income from which is recorded in the Donations line in the Income Statement. So while it is technically a cost of fundraising it hardly relates to the fundraising income line. While we are on the subject of Donations presumably the jump from 416K to 695K was largely in response to the Election Appeal yet is not broken out separately. That’s relevant because you wouldn’t expect to see the same level of donations in a non-election year.

      This illustrates one of the many issues I have with the presentation of the accounts. If I was preparing them I would only show the net income (or loss) from fundraising activities in the Income & Expenditure Statement and then show in a Note a schedule detailing the revenue and cost of each major source,including that of conference. Unless you’re particularly sharp-eyed you wouldn’t detect that the Independence Magazine went from a 22K profit in 2020 to a 4K loss in 2021 due to a 29K increase in costs over 2020’s 70K, countered by a small 3K rise in revenue. How does the magazine’s costs go up 41.7% while the revenue only goes up 3.3% (implying circulation is either static or even declining)?

      You similarly wouldn’t notice that Conference went from a loss of 34K in 2020 to a profit of 131K in 2021 thanks largely to a 53K hike in conference fees (up 37%) and 112K reduction in expenses. From memory the last time they held an in-person National Conference in 2019 it made a whacking loss. So now that National Conference has been converted into a profit centre you can expect it to remain an online-only event indefinitely into the future. Not only does that enable Sturgeon and her cabal to rig the conference by suppressing member dissent via their control of the communication links, the profits from conference pay for Murrell’s and SAS’s salaries. Must make folks proud to be members of the SNP!

    119. Ruby says:

      Derek says:
      19 August, 2022 at 11:07 pm

      Ruby says:
      19 August, 2022 at 5:28 pm

      Here’s the problem with a forum demanding real names.
      .
      .

      I’ve never had a problem with that; I use the same name – my first – wherever I go.

      You have been called an anonymous snivelling coward and you only have one name.

    120. Oneliner says:

      David @1.57am

      ‘Dangerous no-go areas for journalists’ (contd.)

      Courtrooms where the defence innocent parties is being ‘heard’

    121. Ruby says:

      StuartM is very good at this forensic accountancy stuff not so good with the links.

      Still the kittens in his first link were very cute. 🙂

      Cheers StuartM & thank you. Keep up the good work.
      Lots of very interesting information in your posts.

    122. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Roger 12.24: so prudishness may have given us the term gender? As you say, gender in grammar is often not what you would expect: LE vagin being a good French example.

      David: so that’s where the KG dinosaurs went? Looks a great place for a break. I see Carson from Downton Abbey went on holiday there too 🙂 .

    123. Bugger the Panda says:

      If anybody is interested, Lord Frost’s previous job was as Adminstrative Head of the Scotch Whisky Association.

      The SWA has a little history of appointing Treasury or HOME/ FOREIGN OFFICE types waiting to move on and up. (Security Service)

      With Frost they got the shitty end of the stick

      Says a lot about the SWA and who their friends are.

    124. auld highlander says:

      What if the next tory pm or the present object decides that the snp have had their fling and they shut Holyrood down overnight?

      Could they.?

      Would they?

    125. stuart mctavish says:

      @Pete Wishart

      I dont live there either but have just returned from being treated to a lovely 2 weeks with my mum after 3 years of not being allowed/ able to leave and return to one of this England’s other neighbours.

      My overall impression was that road signs – possibly the only ‘power’ to have been fully devolved (albeit in accordance with the highway code) – are a bit rubbish, eg 60mph to 20 mph downhill with no transition/ warning and airport bound traffic on Edinburgh bypass being directed into an accident friendly crossing approach to the gogar roundabout when better options are available, but are not nearly as bad as beautiful weather being greeted with broadcasts to the effect that the tweed was running dry (it wasn’t) and everyone could expect to die from sunshine in event MPs pleading guilty to (maybe) catching a cold and spreading even more horrible death and destruction didn’t get to them first.

      Worst moment of all though was not being able to purchase a bottle of whisky (which I suspect is actually half price in any one of a dozen local supermarkets) WITH CASH as thankyou present to the gentleman roped in at last minute to pick us up at our destination.

      Please get it sorted – and maybe get

    126. Ottomanboi says:

      «But the UK is a unitary state, not a federation or a
      confederation. Both the 1707 and 1801 Acts of Union fused
      the participants into one state in which all were equal,
      first “Great Britain”, then the “United Kingdom*, with one
      sovereign legal personality and one Parliament and
      government»
      The anglocentric perspective will prevail unless the equivalent of a wrecking ball is taken too it. Post EU the British state establishment is in no mood to be demeaned. Some might be prepared to go to war with Russia to prove there is life in the desiccated corpus: Truss?
      Trouble is some SNats would support that, just as many Scots might agree with the quote.
      The end of political Ukania must also mean the end of Britishness and the suffocating, bogus kith and kin sentimentality it deals in.

    127. Bugger the Panda says:

      StuartM says:
      20 August, 2022 at 2:23 am
      Re Churchill,

      Churchill eventually was beaten by someone from an amalgamated Party which campaign for prohibition.

    128. stuart mctavish says:

      better

    129. Andy Ellis says:

      @auld highlander 8.39 am

      What if the next tory pm or the present object decides that the snp have had their fling and they shut Holyrood down overnight?

      Could they.?

      Would they?

      Given what has happened since 2014 you have to wonder what it is going to take for the Scottish people to finally get up off their knees and say “enough is enough”. Perhaps moves to shut Holyrood down would suffice. I’ve long thought that moves against separate Scottish football and rugby teams would be enough: if more Scots were as passionate about their politics as they were about their football we’d probably have been independent decades ago.

      It’s possible that a new Tory administration – particularly one led by someone as out of her depth as Truss – will at least try to use salami slicing tactics to reduce the power of the Scottish Government and enshrine its subsidiarity to Westminster. The kind of “muscular unionism” plays well to her core little Englander base, as well as to Scottish unionists.

      It would be relatively easy for the post BoJo Tory party to use Scottish nationalism as its next whipping boy: they need a new focus now they can’t realistically blame their shortcomings on the EU.

      Whether the Scots people and their representatives are prepared to stand up and be counted to prevent the britnats trying to put devolution in to reverse, never mind ruling out independence, remains to be seen. In the case of the current SNP I tend to doubt it. I’ve never been convinced the SNP leadership were passionate enough about achieving independence to put their liberty on the line the way their Catalan counterparts did, whatever the provocation from Westminster.

    130. robertkknight says:

      The Moonhowling Yoons behave as though their precious Yookay has been around since Roman times and that it is simply the Empire of Greater England by another name.

      I forget how many times I have corrected someone who says “England” and have pointed out that the correct term is “UK”, to be met with the response “well, you know what I mean”. That for many, these terms are interchangeable, speaks volumes. Similarly, when talk of England mentions the word “island”, the look of incredulity when it is pointed out that England is not an island and on fact has two land borders is astonishing.

      If you remind them that in its present form the UK is only a century old and that Scotland wouldn’t be the first to leave their precious Union… the Witch King of Angmar being skewered by a teenage girl comes pretty close.

    131. Robert Hughes says:

      ” It would be relatively easy for the post BoJo Tory party to use Scottish nationalism as its next whipping boy: they need a new focus now they can’t realistically blame their shortcomings on the EU. ” .

      Precisely what Peter Bell was saying in a recent blog post of his Andy , and something I believe is very plausible , if not pretty much guaranteed .

      Truss positioning herself as Saviour Of Our Precious Union / Hammer Of The Seditionary Scots will indeed play well with the imperial fantasists that comprise a large % of the Tory support

      Also providing a useful deflection from their catastrophic governance , which by then will have sunk to 3rd World level shambles , possibly requiring the * strong arm of the Law * to quell civil unrest .

      The idea that they will * recognise * a Pleb Election itself , never might a Pro-Independence victory resulting from one is laughable in the extreme

    132. The Isolator says:

      My my…so Mr Wishart decides to throw a grenade into this particular room.Is Stu about to blow the doors off the SNP horsebox?

    133. Robert Hughes says:

      ” ….never mind …..”

    134. Andy Ellis says:

      @Robert Hughes 9.38 pm

      The idea that they will * recognise * a Pleb Election itself , never might a Pro-Independence victory resulting from one is laughable in the extreme

      Aye, there’s the rub right enough Robert. The thing is that if things have progressed to the point where the indy movement has opted to go for plebiscitary elections and the britnats refuse to recognise then, Scottish nationalism as a movement will be forced to piss or get off the pot.

      If they bottle it at that point, many of those currently purporting to support independence will be exposed for what they truly are: devolusionist trimmers who would be prepared to jettison “full fat” independence for the continuance of their cosy sinecures. Alternatively, the movement as a whole calls the unionists bluff. A majority is a majority when it comes to plebiscitary elections. Similarly, it’s time for the Scottish Government to be ramping up pressure on the yoons, not being on the back foot (as per usual).

      They should respond to britnat trial balloons about gelding Holyrood and reasserting the unitary nature of the UK, taking power away from Holyrood and giving them to local authorities, dictating when or how often and on what terms we are “allowed” to vote for independence by asserting the primacy of Scottish voters and Holyrood not Westminster in constitutional matters.

    135. Robert Hughes says:

      ” The thing is that if things have progressed to the point where the indy movement has opted to go for plebiscitary elections and the britnats refuse to recognise then, Scottish nationalism as a movement will be forced to piss or get off the pot. ”

      Quite so .That’s the only benefit I can see from calling the next UKGE a Plebiscite for Independence . Albeit couched in serious caveats, #1 …we still have to win it , never a foregone conclusion : even less so under an AIM dominated diktat and hitherto unseen levels of Brit State / MSM propaganda .

      If such a GE was fought and won with that understanding there remains the question of whether the current SNP * Leadership * would have the political will & determination to take – what should be , the next step …ie … taking our case to the U.N .

    136. Mark Boyle says:

      The Isolator says:
      20 August, 2022 at 9:39 am

      My my…so Mr Wishart decides to throw a grenade into this particular room.Is Stu about to blow the doors off the SNP horsebox?

      There’s no proof it was Comfy Slippers, probably just Friday night shenanigans from one of the multiple alias mob wanting to liven the highlight of their day up, but since Pete’s alleged (ie. take claim with a pinch of salt) to Google search all references to himself, there was some sport to be had in replying.

    137. Geri says:

      Saffron Robe 2:47

      Funny, I was going to mention that but deleted the post. Thinking best not.. I’ll be accused of being a nativist moon howling shortbread muncher.lol

      Yeah. Black 47
      Returning soldiers that fought for the Brits returning to a massive WTAF!!? Road to Damascus moment.

      I was also going to mention, in conflicts, does each opponent turn up with a white paper, a section30 request, 2 million signatures, 70% backing from the plebs & armed with an economic plan?

      I mentioned a few weeks ago. They think (just as this article states) the English created a brand new state & that state was forever & belongs to them for all time.

      I think it’ll come to this. They’ll never let an energy rich country just walk away. It should’ve been taken to the European courts a long time ago but Sturgeon was fixated on her way or no way. Especially after Brexshit & no consent to the powergrag. All her, Pishy Pete & the other brain dead duds have done is sleepwalk us into an authoritarian state & the English Daily Wailers & LBC phone ins are up for a lynching now for us to shut up & do as we’re told. This was a dead cert once Brexshit was done – they’d find another cause for the knuckle draggers.

      Meanwhile, in Scotland, they’re fucking about with fannies, pledges & codes of conduct. Jeez fk!!

      England would be financially & politically crippled on the world stage without Scotland & would be humiliated like they were when BoJo was reduced to loitering like a bad uninvited smell at the EU Council summit earlier this year.

    138. Breeks says:

      To me Winston Churchill is the living embodiment of “Britishness”. He has the populist persona of John Bull personified, an eccentricity which defied all logic and reason, but which despised the similar eccentricity and defiance of reason mirrored in his enemies.

      Celebrated as a hero who delivered victory, who promptly all but declared war on the one ally who had sacrificed 26 million people to actually defeat Nazism, and who played a huge part in creating the Cold War.

      Scratch the veneer just a little, and there it is, the elitist hubris, the toxic privileged background, the latent prejudices and bigotry, and the litany of disastrous failures and incompetence all swept under the carpet. Britannia rules.

      I don’t grudge the English their Churchill. I’d even extend that umbrella to Scottish Unionists and WW2 veterans who drew strength from Churchill when they needed strength like never before.

      I don’t grudge them, but at the same time, they’re welcome to him. He is the product of a Union which I despise, and a relic of the 19th Century which spilled over into the 20th, and certainly has no place in the 21st Century.

      That Churchill is frequently hailed as British Bulldog spirit speaks volumes to me and volumes to British Unionists; it’s just the volumes are in different commodities. What nauseates the former seems to intoxicate the latter.

      If Churchill is your ultimate hero, I’m forced to conclude you don’t have many others to choose from.

      It’s NOT the British Bulldog courage I dislike. Quite the reverse. In April 1940, the British Carrier Glorious was evacuating forces from Norway when spotted by the German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Desperate to save the carrier, two British Destroyers, Ardent and Acasta embraced their certain destruction, laid smoke, and charged the enemy battleships, and actually damaged both battleships; the Scharnhorst quite badly.

      Both destroyers were of course blown to pieces with not a single survivor, and their sacrifice didn’t save the Glorious either, but the damaged battleships were forced back into port for repairs, which likely saved a good number of other ships fleeing Norway meeting a similar fate. Ardent and Acasta. Bet you’ve never heard of them. Where are the films made about their bravery?

      When people describe the bulldog spirit, there is a world of difference between the real thing, and the red, white and blue daily bullshit version we get served up morning noon and night which is meant to cement the Union and vilify Scots who would save their devotion for Scotland.

      What the Brits don’t understand is that you’ll find that bulldog spirit in a Scot, a Frenchman, a German, a Russian, an Indian, an African or a Muslim, and you’ll find it in a woman as readily as you’ll find it in a man. The bulldog spirit is fine where it recognises courage, but sorely tainted the moment it’s used to indulge your deluded notions of exceptionalism.

    139. lothianlad says:

      robbo, re wee pishart…..!00% correct!

    140. Andy Ellis says:

      @Robert Hughes 11.31 pm

      I agree that I can’t see the current SNP leadership doing the right thing. I wouldn’t trust them to deliver in the unlikely event Sturgeon did what she has promised if #indyref2 is frustrated and calls for plebiscitary elections. “Noises off” from both the SNP and Greens suggest that they wouldn’t agree to a slate of “Yes Movement” candidates, but would insist on standing their own candidates, which seems like madness particularly for a Westminster GE.

      Interestingly Alex Salmond didn’t seem too keen on the plebiscitary election route in his comments in Edinburgh a few weeks ago. He said he thought if that route was taken it had to be by a united movement, standing one candidate per seat on the single issue of independence.

      Of course the quickest way to call the britnats bluff in 2023 would be for Sturgeon and her party to announce now that if the SC finds against the SG, and if Truss or Sunak make good on their “red meat” promises o their Little Englander base of making Scottish independence functionally impossible, then they will immediately provoke plebiscitary elections for Holyrood.

      The milquetoast devolutionists currently in charge would never have the balls to do it of course.

    141. Ruby says:

      Geri says:
      19 August, 2022 at 10:00 pm

      Robbo LOL

      How did that get past moderation? ??

      Could it be it depends on who you are addressing your post to or maybe
      Stu is very busy. I am going to volunteer to moderate to help him out. 🙂

    142. Ruby says:

      laisydaisy says:
      18 August, 2022 at 7:48 pm

      An interesting follow-up to the census. On 9 August I got a follow-up doorstep interview from scotlandcensus.gov.uk. One of the questions was “What is your sex – Male or Female”. That was it. No mention of gender or any other option. It was categorical.

      I had hoped it heralded a new dawn, that they’d paid attention to the stickered envelopes and comments written on the form, but given the latest developments …

      laisydaisy posted on above on the previous thread.

      It made me wonder a couple of things

      Is the Census anonymous?
      Does the SNP have access to the Census?

      What would be the reason to pay laisydaisy a visit?

    143. Rab Davis says:

      From all I have heard regards the best route to Scottish Independence, I would have to agree that dissolving the current Scottish government some time within the next two years and calling a Plebiscite election on Scottish Independence at Holyrood seems to be the most assured way of regaining our Independence.

      It also brings Into play EU citizens and 16 and 17 year olds. All of whom have shown to be up for voting Yes.

      And if Sturgeon really is hinting at calling it a day,,,then why not go out with a bang,,,it would give her some kind of legacy to bow out with.

      But,,,,she would have to start now by TELLING Westminster of her intentions,,, that way everyone is aware of the plan ahead.

      The more you look at that route, the more simple it becomes.

      And I could see a 70/30 result in favour of Scottish Independence.

      It’s over to Sturgeon and her faithful to carry this plan forward.

      For ONCE put Scotland first.

      And it is true, the NuSNP membership actually do believe she can walk on water.

    144. Geri says:

      Mark,

      I can confirm that’s exactly what the narcissist does.

      I found myself on his block list for talking about him, not to him. I wasn’t even rude or abusive – we were just discussing SNP slipping into their usual deep slumber while Scotland’s being shafted.

      What an insecure wanker to go hunting for your own name.

      Elected politicians who block from official accounts should be removed from public office, imo. They’re elected to listen to all complaints, not just their suck-ups fawning over their latest bullshit.

      If they want to go off – make a separate account.

      StuartM
      A lot gave up offices after Jo Cox & various other attacks & death threats. Staff were allegedly working in fear. They usually have a contact email on SM these days or passed direct to the head honcho.

    145. Rab Davis says:

      The Pete Wishart post HAS to be a wind up.
      The real Pete Wishart is too busy getting measured up for his new uniform to start his 50th Term at Westminster.

      Pete insists he is trying his best to bring about an independent Scotland,,, it’s just taking a bit longer than originally planned.

      His return to Westminster on a regular basis has absolutely nothing to do with the millions of pounds he has earned along the way,,,or the huge pension he is due to pick up at the end of his tireless work. (A pension that would choke one of Mike Russell’s horses).

      Pete Wishart,,,,,True Warrior.

      Brings a tear to the eye just typing this.

    146. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Breeks (12.02) –

      Great stuff.

      Who would have Churchill as a hero? Well, there’s Gorgeous George for a start. The very same GG who described Scotland as ‘a dying country’ and says not a peep when a political activist dares use his own rhetoric against him.

      Churchill’s role in the bombing of Dresden should be enough to have him forever condemned as a war criminal. Instead, we’re forced to use currency bearing his portrait. There’s another thing about him which isn’t often discussed and I can’t recall where I read about it – he was involved in a spy ring within Westminster (whilst he was out of office, in the 30’s perhaps?) and only just escaped detection. He would’ve been hanged along with his co-conspirators (for High treason) if caught.

    147. Ruby says:

      Rab Davis says:
      20 August, 2022 at 12:33 pm

      It also brings Into play EU citizens and 16 and 17 year olds. All of whom have shown to be up for voting Yes.

      I have another question.
      Is there any an EU citizens classification?

    148. Ruby says:

      Mike Russell doesn’t have any horses he’s just got a bigC’ empty box.

      Wonder if Mike Russell will give us a visit?

      C’mon Mike we would love to hear from you.

    149. Ruby says:

      Ooops dont know how the C’ slipped in there.
      Freudian slip?

      I quite like the C word (but I’m not risking it)

      A big C of an empty horse box. No horse just shit!

    150. James che says:

      BUT England breached ARTICLE 1:

      Article 1: states,….That the two kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the 1st May next ensuing hereof and forever after be be united into one kingdom by the name of Great Britain,

      ( only Two countries are in the treaty of the union 1706 / 1707,

      When joining with Ireland it changed its name to UK Parliament, and became bilateral parliament.
      Which is not in the conditions, agreements or articles of the treaty of the union.

      The parliament is now known as the UK Parliament. It states this when you research UK parliament in their own site.

    151. Merganser says:

      Stuart M @ 4.58

      Raffles

      Thank you for taking the time to point me in the right direction. I wish I had your analytical skills, but in the absence thereof I have to fly by the seat of my pants so I’m probably in for a bumpy landing by mentioning this:

      My experience of organising raffle indicates that most prizes are donated, with perhaps one main prize (usually a bottle of spirits) being purchased to be the attraction for people to part with their money, say £20.00.

      If the cost of funding the raffles was nearly £140,000, then an awful lot of raffles must have taken place in a year – I make it in the region of 7,000, or 1,400 a week.

      If I’m out by 50% that still means 700 raffles a week taking place somewhere. That isn’t happening I don’t think, and I note your comments about weasel words.

      It is interesting to compare the fundraising income and costs for the two years (2020 and 2021) relating to raffles.

      In 2020, for an outlay of £118,865, an income of £413,439 was generated. In 2021, for an outlay of £139,523, an income of £342,217 was generated. In view off the direction of travel it might be a good idea if they put a halt to having raffles. Or would that inhibit the ability of the weaving technique which seems to be such a feature of the SNP’s way of accounting.

      Now approaching the runway. Hope I survive the landing

    152. StuartM says:

      robertkknight says:
      20 August, 2022 at 9:19 am
      “I forget how many times I have corrected someone who says “England” and have pointed out that the correct term is “UK”, to be met with the response “well, you know what I mean”. That for many, these terms are interchangeable, speaks volumes.”

      Ditto, I’ve had the same reaction. When you point out to them that they’re actually referring to the entire UK they say “that’s what I meant”.

      When my English cousin was out in Australia about 10 years ago she asked me whether I would ever “go back to live in England”. In the interests of family harmony I restrained myself from pointing out that I had never lived in England in the first place. FFS the woman’s father, my uncle, was a Scot; her other cousins are Scots and she’s been to Scotland many times and has a timeshare in Aviemore. Yet she still equates England with Britain. And she was a geography teacher and deputy head of a high school so not uneducated. Yet the English myopia persisted in this otherwise intelligent woman.

      Another thing that gets my goat is when some pompous oaf starts pontificating about how “in 1940 England defiantly stood alone against Hitler”. Yes completely alone, apart from Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, India, Ceylon, Burma, Malaya, Nigeria, Kenya, Uganda, Jamaica, Trinidad and a host of smaller parts of the Empire and Commonwealth. The Indian Army alone reached a total of over 1 million men. Then of course there were Free French, Polish, Norwegian and other nationality soldiers, sailors and airmen plus virtually the entire Dutch and Norwegian merchant marines. Yes, England was totally alone.

    153. Ruby says:

      I will not be changing my moniker to ‘Ruby Tuesday’ to give me a full name.
      I don’t want to give anyone the chance to tell me Good-bye.
      Only Stu can do that

      What about if I change my moniker to Kirsty Blackman?

      How often can you change your moniker?

      Pete Wishart has been the first SNP MP to post here using his real name but could it be that Pete Wishart & many other SNP politicians have been posting here like S.A.C.s since we all left the SNP ‘cos of Covid or since June 29, 2022

    154. Mia says:

      @ Pete Wishart, 8:50

      “Alex Salmond is yesterday’s man”

      No, he is not. Mr Salmond is tomorrow’s man. Mr Wishart, on the other hand, is the day before yesterday’s man and Sturgeon is yesteryear’s woman.

      I doubt you are the real Pete Wishart, but clearly you must be his fan when you purport to write on his behalf. So forgive me for asking, but as a pro independence MP sent to Westminster to deliver Scotland’s independence, what has Mr Wishart done in the many, many years he has had his back comfortably positioned against the green seats in Westminster, that is of any significance or that is worth mentioning?

      How exactly has he put the votes and the trust from the yes supporters from his constituency of so many years, of so many elections, the last three being anti-union MP majorities by the way, to good use to progress Scotland’s independence?

      Because I see zero progress. What I see is regress. It is not what you call “value for vote”.

      Forgive me also for asking what exactly does Mr Wishart stand for nowadays? A healthy paycheque and the prospect of a comfortable retirement at the expense of thousands of yes supporters who put their trust on him to deliver independence?

      What will his constituents be voting for if they choose to vote for him at the next GE? More of the same? More wasted majorities? More powers and assets lost? More women’s rights lost? More engineered division of the yes movement? More increase in energy bills while England continues to siphon our electricity, gas, water and oil for free?

      Just to measure how much of a “today’s” man Mr Wishart is, let me ask you this: when Scotland becomes independent and our great-grandchildren are taught in school about how Scotland achieved its independence and who were the brave men and women who helped to deliver it by actively fighting to get Scotland out of the clutches of a self-serving crown and neighbour country, what will the history books say next to his name and his many, many years in Westminster? Would his name even appear in the history books?

      We now look back in history and utterly despise those commissioners and the pro union MPs who 300 years ago sided with the crown to betray and sell Scotland. Over 300 years ago the crown instigated this union through appointed commissioners, propagandists like Defoe and bribing MPs. They did this in the face of and despite fierce rejection and opposition from the real owners of Scotland: the Scottish people.

      Ever since, successive corrupt executives in Westminster and seemingly for the last 7 years in Holyrood too, have continued to do the same: ignore the people of Scotland. This has never been more obvious than since May 2015, the time in history that should have seen the end of this union. Instead, we had to watch how a corrupt and unprincipled SNP so called leader betrayed all what her predecessors and party membership stood for and abused her position of power to remove the wheels of the SNP as a party for independence, rendering its majorities useless. All in service of the british state, but to the detriment of Scotland.

      So, will Sturgeon’s name and the SNP she leads cause in future Scottish generations the same level of disgust, the same level of contempt, the same feelings of rejection than the commissioners and MPs who sold Scotland 300 years ago cause on us today, when our great-grandchildren review Scotland’s history and see in black and white how they stood up for the British establishment instead of for Scotland?

      How do you think our great-grandchildren are going to see her actions during the last 8 years when they realise that not delivering independence in 2015 has led to many, many unnecessary COVID deaths, the threat of extortionate energy bills and many Scottish families being pushed to the edge and having to decide if they eat or heat their homes?

      Who do you think they are going to blame for the regrettable suicides that this situation might bring about because families are left with no future, no prospects of a decent living and parents might no longer be able to bear the pain of their impotence watching their children going hungry?

      How do you think the new generations of Scots will remember her, when, since 2015, she has had on her hands the power to avoid all this by delivering independence but chose not to and instead force this on us?

      Rest assured Mr Salmond’s name will appear in the history books and will appear as a fighter for independence, not as the disgraced coward who sided with the UK civil service to betray her mentor, who used faux virtue signalling to divide the yes movement, who refused to close the borders allowing this virus to take many unnecessary lives and who disarmed our anti-union majorities so many families in Scotland can now face poverty, the coldest winter and malnourishment.

      And when our great-granchildren celebrate independence day, the political life of which person from this time and day will they be celebrating? Would that be Mr Wishart’s? Alyn Smith’s? Blackman’s? Blackford’s? Black’s? Robertson’s Sturgeon’s? or would be Mr Salmond’s?
      I think it will be the latter.

      And who will in an independent Scotland be decried as the despicable villains, the greatest cowards of the 21st century who, despite being given all the tools they would ever require to deliver independence, chose to betray Scotland instead by handing free vetoes to England and to the crown’s executive to stop it?

      Mr Salmond fought, is fighting and will fight for the rest of his life for independence. Having less than a dozen anti-union MPs, he managed to deliver a referendum. A referendum that, officially, almost won, and that was having the entire British establishment machine and coffers against him. That is what a real pro-independence leader, a sound strategist do, not wasting their voice (and our time and anti-union majorities) calling other pro-independence supporters “transphobes” to distract us from their inaction.

      In contrast to Mr Salmond, and from where I am standing, the only thing Mr Wishart appear to have contributed to over all those years is the preservation of this union, deeply toxic to Scotland. A union that if Sturgeon and the SNP MPs were the pro-independence advocates they claimed to be to secure our votes, would have ended in 2015.

      The other thing Mr Wishart appear to have been doing for the last 7 years, together with the rest of the SNP MPs and MSPs, has been to legitimise the outrageous robbery of Scotland’s assets and powers. They have done this by sitting on their hands through votes in Westminster that the SNP should have never allowed to take place if any of those MPs or Sturgeon herself believed even an ounce of what they preach related to democracy, about Scotland’s popular sovereignty and Scotland’s right to self determination.

      “many Alba supporters do not realise how toxic the man is”

      Mr Salmond is only toxic to the British state, the same state Mr Wishart and the so called “leader” of his party appear so desperately keen to protect. By default, of course, Mr Salmond will be seen as toxic to all the sycophants and useful idiots who, doing the dirty work for the British state, tried to put him in prison despite being innocent. He will be seen as toxic also by the deceivers and careerists who only claim to be pursuing independence to deceive voters, but who, for more than 7 years, have used their position of power and their seats to do the precise opposite. He is seen as toxic by them because he exposes their incompetence, their lies, their self-servitude and their deception. But more than anything, he exposes their total lack of appetite for independence.

      “damaging to the independence movement”

      The only thing that has damaged the independence movement has been the inexistence of a single backbone among all SNP MPs and MSPs combined, since Mr Salmond exited Westminster. SNP MPs and MSPs have apathetically witnessed how the most useless pro-independence leader in SNP history has proceeded to betray all what the party stood for, has dragged Scotland backwards in the autonomy road and effectively destroyed all what previous SNP leaders had built, and has used the last 8 years to transform a pro-independence party into another innocuous political tool for the British state. Mr McRae must be turning on his grave.

      What has really damaged the independence movement is the perverse, vicious, deliberate and direct attack by a fake “feminist” on women and girl’s rights and the disgusting attacks by her praetorian guard on any woman who dares to stand up for those rights, including those in the party themselves.

      What has damaged the independence movement is the contempt for democracy displayed by an alleged democrat who has deliberately let our mandates expire so England could drag us out of the EU, continue exploiting our assets for its own benefit and continue to abuse its position of power in this union. A pretend “democrat” who, let’s not forget, has endorsed Robertson to be undemocratically parachuted to a candidate seat by means of actively blocking a far better local candidate and, by the look of it, far more committed to Scotland’s independence than he, or the “leader” will ever be.

      What has damaged the yes movement is the actions of a useless pro independence pretend leader who instead of nurturing and directing the yes movement together in the correct direction, has actively engaged in divisive politics, has sided with the UK civil service and COPFS to destroy the only pro-independence leader able today to bend the British state to his will, and has exercised what looks like blatant abuse of power to retain control and to attack that yes movement from high to stop it moving forward.

      “ALBA is overall due to their obsession with transphobia”

      I am sorry, phobia to trans- what?

      “trans” is a prefix that comes from the Latin. It refers to movement from one place to another. For this suffix to be meaningful it has to be attached to something that explains what the change refers to.

      “phobia” is a suffix and does not do this. It means fear. Strictly speaking, the word “transphobia” just means phobia to change. Well, Alba is not displaying phobia to change. They are actively fighting for independence for ending the status quo.

      The ones who are displaying a more than evident phobia to change are the SNP MPs, including Mr Wishart, SNP MSPs and Nicola Sturgeon, who for 8 years, despite having on their hands many opportunities and majorities to effect change by ending this union, have done the exact opposite: fight against change, fight fiercely against the status quo.

      Well, let me tell you that as a yes supporter, as a person living in Scotland who is disgusted at the total inaction of the SNP and its leader despite the many majorities landed on their laps; as somebody who is disgusted at the fact that such inaction on independence has led to many unnecessary deaths to COVID in Scotland because our coward FM could not find the backbone to close the borders like other countries did; as somebody who is disgusted at the fact that such inaction is leading to a grotesque, cruel and inhumane situation where our energy bills are deliberately pushed well beyond our reach, despite living in a country which exports electricity, gas and oil, it is energy self-sufficient and it is ransacked by our neighbour country who appears to pay less for electricity than we do; and as somebody who is disgusted at the fact that such inaction is leading to my food bills increasing per week to exorbitant levels because of a stupid brexit Scotland never voted for and this FM chose not to spare Scotland from; and as somebody who is more than disgusted at watching how the unforgivable inaction of this so called pro-independence leader, is actually leading many families in Scotland to face the nightmare of poverty, to having to choose which member of the family will go without food on the day so the younger children can eat, is leading elderly people having to choose between heating their homes or eating, to be frank, the only phobia to change I am giving a shit about today is the unforgivable phobia to independence and to departing from the status quo this useless pro-independence “leader” and the SNP MPs and MSPs indulging her, are displaying and which has led us to the present avoidable situation.

      “Nicola Sturgeon has done a huge service to the independence movement”

      No, she hasn’t. And it is appalling that you dare to even try to deceive us with such nonsense after she has wasted Scotland 8 years of anti-union MP majorities. Under what parallel universe such contempt for democracy, for Scotland’s popular sovereignty and Scotland’s right to self-determination can ever be seen as a service to the independence movement?

      Nicola Sturgeon’s appetite for divisive politics has also caused the biggest division in the yes movement in 300 years of history and after doubling down on it, it can hardly be seen as an accidental act or even an act of poor judgement or temporary stupidity. Again, how was that a service to the independence movement?

      Her allergy to independence has put us in a situation where many will not be able to eat and heat their homes simultaneously.
      How is that a service to the independence movement?

      The first thing this woman did in 2014 was to remove the wheels of the SNP as a vehicle for independence, rendering SNP MP majorities as useless. How exactly has that been a service to the independence movement?

      All those things have been a service to the British state, the crown and herself, but never to the independence movement or to Scotland. Claiming otherwise is to insult our intelligence.

      The only thing a politician has to recommend themselves is their perceived integrity, their principles, their commitment to deliver what they claim to stand for and their honesty. Mr Salmond has demonstrated having all those in spades over the course of his political career and is still demonstrating them today despite having almost being put in prison by unprincipled and corrupt political mediocrities who, politically, will never reach by themselves the highest point of his shoe heel.

      Where are Mr Wishart’s and Sturgeon’s integrity, principles, commitment to deliver what they claim to stand for, and their honesty? Because from here they appear to be conspicuous by their absence.

    155. Ottomanboi says:

      Too many Scots might be perceived to be classic examples of the «useful idiot».
      Scottish nationalism, the politically approved mainstream variety, seems to havd done very little to correct the perception.
      The English élite recognize a «chump» when they meet one. Who can blame them for exploiting a golden opportunity and playing the field.
      If Ukania were a jurassic themepark à la Hollywood, I’d like to envisage Scotland cast as wily velociraptors to England’s T.Rex.
      All we need is the DNA, the knowhow and the chutzpah.

    156. Ruby says:

      Merganser says:
      If the cost of funding the raffles was nearly £140,000, then an awful lot of raffles must have taken place in a year – I make it in the region of 7,000, or 1,400 a week.

      Maybe just one raffle and they were competing with Scotland in Union

      My mind is still boggling at £200K for software.
      That’s a lot of copies of Microsoft Office.

    157. Mia says:

      RE my comment at 1:48

      Apologies for the typo. Where I say “fight fiercely against the status quo”, I clearly mean “fight fiercely against CHANGING the status quo”.

    158. James che says:

      Rev stu,
      The devolved government in Scotland is not a Scottish government, it is a branch of the Uk parliament and is illegal in its set up to Scots law,
      It perpetrates English law over rides Scots law,

      Ie) Scots law is to be retained as separate from English law in Scotland,
      Any law passed in Scotland that has been passed from the Queens council is deem to be breaking Scots laws according to the treaty of the union articles,

      NS breeches this if it was indeed a genuine Scottish parliament when she decided to put the matter and question of a independence referendum for Scotland.

      However it is not breached as a English parliament devolved to Scotland by an English in Scotland.

      It does breach the articles of the union however due to the following.

      Non of the treaty of union articles agree to a devolved government sent from old English parliament,
      Nor from the new formed Uk parliament which in of it self breach the treaty of the union under article 1 of the treaty of the union.

      NS and the SNP are well aware of this by applying to the supreme court of the illegal entity UK parliament for section 30s and the QC and supreme court,
      Instead of using Scots Law,
      According to the treaty English law is english law and Scots law is to (remain as separate) as Scots law.

    159. Republicofscotland says:

      James Che @1.34pm.

      James.

      Have a read of this.

      “The principle of unlimited parliamentary sovereignty did not exist in 1707 nor in 1998 or in 2016”

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/08/06/mia-deals-with-the-sovereignty-debate/

    160. Republicofscotland says:

      James Che @1.34pm.

      As for the Claim of Right, which appears to frighten Britnats when mentioned. Check some of them out at the below link.

      “Principles of the Claim of Right which remain applicable today include the following:”

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/07/06/so-what-could-the-claim-of-right-do/

    161. James che says:

      Mia,

      There is no legal UK parliament,

      Read article 1 of the treaty of the union,

      The [ TWO KINGDOMS ]…… (Only Two ) of Scotland and England shall upon the 1st of May next ensuing hereof and forever after be united into one kingdom the name of Great Britain,

      Any alteration such as the joining with Ireland broke and breached the treaty of union between Scotland and Englands parliaments agreement in 1706/ 1707. on what Great Britain comprised of.

      Only Scotland and England.

    162. James che says:

      The Uk is a invented concept that is outwith and after Article 1 of the treaty of the union.

    163. 100%Yes says:

      @ Peter Wishart

      Its nice to know your keeping up with Wings post peter, knowing your getting the facts peter must be a real comfort with living and working in the England.

    164. StuartM says:

      @Merganser

      I haven’t lived in Scotland for nearly 60 years so I don’t know exactly how the SNP run their raffles but I can make a few guesses. I agree that often raffles run by small clubs rely on the generosity of local businesses to donate the prizes, but these raffles are being run by SNP Head Office not some local SNP branch in Cockburnspath. Plus they sold 342,000 quids worth of tickets and that implies a helluva lot of bottles of whisky – I can’t see any publican being that generous. I think they must have bought the prizes. Does anybody remember what the prizes were in some of these raffles?

      The income from raffles increased dramatically from 160K in 2019 to 413K in 2020. I think that reflects their increasingly desperate need for cash, so they turned to selling raffle tickets. People were commenting here that even after having resigned from the SNP they were still receiving books of raffle tickets in the mail with a request to sell them and return the cash to HO. The lower income for 2021 while costs remained steady is probably a combination of less members to sell tickets and donor fatigue among the remaining SNP members.

    165. Effigy says:

      The Daily Hail claim the latest corrupt poll on behalf of the Union shows
      29% in favour of a referendum next year.

      That God it’s only in the Mail.

      Complaining SNP have cut funds for our roads and SNP should be giving Council workers bigger wage increases.
      Well that is unless the Council workers are in England where they become lazy Left Wing loonies who should be grateful they are not starving, well not until Winter.

    166. Republicofscotland says:

      So Michael Gove who backs Sunak as the next PM is to stand down from frontline politics the dad dancer and gish galloping bullshitter probably realises that the wannabe Thatcher Truss will win the PM race.

      Gove need not worry though, as he’ll have many friends in low places after saying this, At a “Closer to Israel at 65” rally in June 2013, he declared “I am proud to be a friend of Israel. I am proud to be a Zionist.”

      Gove is also a memeber of the HJS, the Franco-British Colloque and the Notting Hill Set, so they’ll be a well paid position waiting for him if he decides to call it a day altogether.

      Craig Murray summed up the Tories brilliantly here, and Gove is no exception.

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELPU2YUX0AAf4zd?format=jpg&name=small

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20679230.michael-gove-retire-frontline-politics-backing-rishi-sunak-liz-truss%2F

    167. Effigy says:

      The 46 Million U.K. residents who will become classed as fuel poor in the next few months are planning to clap outside their door every Thursday for the Energy companies.

      Just like the Doctors and Nurses they will be overjoyed to have this as opposed to money.

    168. StuartM says:

      @Merganser

      Regarding your assumption that the prizes are 20 quid bottles of whisky, clearly they’re not because as you note that would involve far too many raffles to organise. To raise serious amounts of money you need to offer a really valuable prize such as a car or an air ticket to Paris so that you can charge a higher amount per ticket and it’s still worthwhile for people to buy them.

    169. James che says:

      Repulicofscotland.

      Thank you on behalf of everyone for the links,

      Yes I have read those particular ones,

      Since mid 2020, I realised that you cannot be locked up without charge in Scotland, and yet NS did lock up the people of Scotland under fines and penaltiies during the virus,

      At the start of that (virus ) she stated on television [ “that in Scotland however it can only be advisory”]
      By the time she had finished power had gone to her head and she ignored Scots Law, and her own statements she had broadcast.

      I raged somewhat on here about being locked up in our homes in Scotland without charge under Scots law,
      However the mind set at that time missed the point, and took it to mean a protest against the jabs,
      Far from it I was well aware that you cannot lock up anyone into there homes or else where under threat and without charge in Scots Law and under the claim of right that is written into the treaty of the union.

    170. StuartM says:

      Bravo Mia!!! That’s telling it to Cosy Slippers Pete.

      Having left Scotland as a bairn nearly 60 years ago I had no opinion pro or anti about Alex Salmond. As you can expect Scottish politics feature hardly at all in the Australian media so for most of that time I wasn’t even aware of his existence. Then when the 2014 Independence Referendum came along I started following the situation but still had too little information to form an opinion of AS.

      That changed with Craig Murray’s coverage of the trial. I originally started reading Craig for his coverage of Julian Assange. That led to following Craig’s coverage of the Salmond trial and my growing outrage at the biased coverage of the UK media. That in turn led me to Wings, Ian Lawson and other blogs.

      Alex’s refusal to bow to the intimidation of Sturgeon’s goons and his determination to fight for justice against first the corrupt Scottish Government and then the corrupt COPFS and the whole power of the State – that deserved admiration. Alex has been tested and not found wanting, and as he said himself we haven’t seen the last of him.

    171. StuartM says:

      Thanks Ruby.

      So the prizes are in cash and total 25,000 quid per raffle, 10K first prize, 5K for 2nd and 1K each for 10 runners-up. A bit more than a bottle of whisky.

    172. Merganser says:

      StuartM @ 2.43

      Bumpy landing but still here.

      Wow. The raffle capital of the world. And there was me thinking that you could win a hand woven wicker basket or something. People must dread them coming round again. Good job I’m too remote to be pestered.

      Do you have any view on the suggestion that a research company may also be a holding company of certain liquid assets?

    173. Ruby says:

      https://archive.ph/YGvvU

      SNP raffle car at conference despite declaring climate emergency

      Really expensive prizes.

    174. George Ferguson says:

      @StuartM 2:31pm
      “You haven’t lived in Scotland for 60 years? I have and you have missed nothing”
      I have worked in 20 countries short duration and all my taxes came back to Scotland. What a waste. My son A and E Doctor has decided to leave Scotland only a few months ago he said 90/10 Staying!. We have watched the disintegration of Scottish Public Services aided by BBC Scotland. I am going to take a heap of schadenfreude when their children can’t access medical help.

    175. Merganser says:

      Stuart M and Ruby

      Thanks for the information. It seems there were two raffles in 2021 which resulted in payouts totalling £50,000. The total cost of fundraising events was £139,583, which leaves an amount of £89,583 which I can’t find accounted for. There would be the cost of printing the tickets. But did they pay people to sell them?
      Or am I missing something (again). Sorry to be so thick.

    176. Ruby says:

      To make £25K + profit how much would the tickets need to be and how many would you need to sell.

      Where does the draw take place & is it 100% legit?

      When are the police going to finish their investigation into claims of fraud.

      Could their raffles be one huge scam?

      Who won the car?

    177. Ruby says:

      Bundles of tickets get posted out to members.

    178. Rab Davis says:

      Ruby 1.07pm

      Regards EU citizenship,,,I’m sure EU citizens based in Scotland will have dual nationality.

    179. Ruby says:

      You get bundles of tickets & stickers with your name and address which I presume you are supposed to stick on the raffle ticket stubs and return along with money for tickets.

      I was a member for for only one year. 1914-1915.

      I think I still got tickets even when I wasn’t a member.

      Stickers were handy when SNP logo was cut off.

      Even with personalised stickers, printing of tickets, wasted tickets,mailing tickets it couldn’t cost £89K.

      But hey you never know they did spend £200K for Microsoft Office.

      Anyway that’s for those who are donating their money to the SNP to worry about.

      I just like a good old ‘Whodunit’ hence reason for interest in SNP accounts.

    180. Ottomanboi says:

      By now people ought to be kicking out the frame the Sturgeonesque legalist navel gazing re items such as the Union treaty, claim of right etc and facing the reality. BritState has no intention of relinquishing its hold over Scotland without a grand «showdown». The Brits do have a fondness for such macho spectacle.
      It seems there are those in Scotland running scared of such a confrontation, why?
      There will never be a gentlemanly accord on a sovereign state having territorial bleeding chunks removed as states tend not to like that sort of thing. The BritState ethos is certainly no exception to that propriatorial rule, think England’s great property inventory, the Domesday Book…what was yours is now ours.

    181. Republicofscotland says:

      This is a new idea I haven’t seen before, on demonising the Scots language, and its utterly bonkers.

      “SCOTS speakers have hit back after a former member of the Scottish Labour party claimed the language facilitated racism.

      In a blog post lawyer and former president of the Law Society of Scotland, Ian Smart, discussed an article published in The Telegraph, which claimed that Afghan immigrants were reportedly turning down accommodation in Scotland and Wales because “it’s cold and they don’t speak English”.

      Smart goes on to suggest that Scots is utilised by the Scottish Government as a “racist” mechanism to keep “refugees with black or brown skins” from moving to Scotland.”

      If I recall correctly Scots also turned out to thwart the dawn raids in Kenmure street to remove immigrants.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20679743.scots-language-ian-smart-claims-scottish-government-use-scots-racist-tool%2F

    182. Republicofscotland says:

      Re my 6.10pm comment Ian Smart added.

      “And that solution is not to say they can’t come here, just that they really, really wouldn’t want to. And her mechanism is Scots.”

      “The lawyer then concludes that there “is not such thing as a ‘Scots’ language” despite the Scottish Government officially recognising it as one of three official indigenous languages of Scotland alongside Gaelic and English.

      The self-defined “Scottish Labour Party hack” – who was suspended from the party 18 months ago under a previous disciplinary proceeding – then claimed that those promoting Scots are “invariably white middle aged, and older, men on the blood and soil wing of the SNP”.”

      Paying particular attention to the last sentence, a certain commentor in here wouldn’t be moonlighting as Mr Smart would he?

      I find the blood and soil comment extremely offensive, and so should all Scots, not just those that support dissolving the union.

    183. North chiel says:

      Terrific post by “Mia at 0148 pm “ telling it exactly how it is .

    184. Gregory Beekman says:

      HELP!

      Oh dear, looks like I was wrong in my debate on Twitter – the White Paper does mention the once-in-a-generation opportunity.

      https://twitter.com/beanbaby111/status/1561034892850372609

      But what legal status is a White Paper?

      Does anyone know? Help me out here!

    185. Republicofscotland says:

      I think this is disgraceful those 800 people have families mortgages and bills to pay, and they were dropped like hot potatoes without any notice. The Insolvency Service dropped the ball on this one.

      “THE Insolvency Service has determined P&O Ferries will not face criminal proceedings over its actions in firing almost 800 workers earlier this year.

      The company sparked public anger and was hauled in front of MPs to answer questions when it sacked hundreds of workers without notice in March.

      Business Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng asked the Insolvency Service to investigate whether any offences had been committed.

      In a statement, the Government agency said it had determined there was “no realistic prospect of a conviction”.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20679245.p-o-wont-face-criminal-proceedings-mass-sacking-insolvency-service-says%2F

    186. Gregory Beekman says:

      It’s really hard to find a Scot Gov site that explains what a White Paper is – loads for UK Gov and elsewhere but I’d like a Scot Gov site.

      Does anyone know where the Scot Gov define what a White Paper is?

    187. Republicofscotland says:

      Gregory Beekman.

      Its not in the Edinburgh Agreement either, it has no bearing on when we should be able to hold a referendum on whether or not to dissolve this union.

    188. Gregory Beekman says:

      The reply I made, though it lacks a Scot Gov source

      https://twitter.com/GregoryBeekman/status/1561045039840731138

    189. James che says:

      Anyone Had a problem with gateway timing them out today?
      Usually more comments, are they being thinned out by gateway?

    190. Tommo says:

      ‘Anyone Had a problem with gateway timing them out today?
      Usually more comments, are they being thinned out by gateway?’

      Hopefully.

    191. Geri says:

      What Pete needs to do is take himself & his motley crew of misfits on a door stepping challenge championing the Trans cause to the twin-set & pearls brigade of Perthshire. Take independence, which they’ve hijacked, completely out the conversation & stick to Trans rights & self I’d & don’t hold back on the venom when wee Morag dares ask a question.

      I’d pay to see that! LOL

      James Che
      This is were England doesn’t care about Claim of Rights etc. To them, that’s relegated to the history books. They created a brand new State with laws & an unwritten constitution (so that can be modified at any time) & it’s permanent. Nowhere does it state either side can end it. Only the GB parliament can & given the forever skewed numbers game & it no longer being a GB parliament with protestant entitlement dripping in every page – that’s not likely. The house will always win. That’s why the no side went holiday daft after the No result – it wasn’t football – it was knuckling dragging fuckwits stamping their authority at daring to challenge their supremacy.

    192. stuart mctavish says:

      @Ruby re raffles

      Believe it or not, the fascinating excuse given me for not being able to accept cash in ‘Duty Free’ was health and safety restrictions introduced in response to the pandemic.

      Since the cashier assured me he was not joking, or even taking the proverbial in response to my unfamiliar accent, it seems quite extraordinary, especially given the politically charged nature of the revelation, that our best journalists have yet to expose the apparent failures confining the smartest guys in the room to such a badly informed echo chamber that contemporary raffle ticket science appears to have completely surpassed anything the best minds at the treasury can conjure up – particularly in so far as it could have been used to add virus (or regulation) resistant properties to the new plastic notes I was obliged to exchange the old money for earlier in the week (ie shortly before it being refused in exchange for goods on government licensed commercial premises any event).

    193. Joybell says:

      Tommo @ 7.10 pm

      That made me smile.

    194. Geri says:

      Gregory

      The white paper was a prospectus. It has no legal standing.

    195. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Is there any way of confirming whether or not the Pete Wishart who visited this place yesterday is ‘that’ one?

    196. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Can I also ask if anyone here has visited the WGD place recently?

      Is it still going?

      If so are there any familiar names still frequenting the place?

      And has he managed to get the £5k he was begging for a couple of months ago?

    197. Geri says:

      Someone said he’d confirmed it on Twitter but I can’t see his account to look.

      I doubt that it’s him but given his past of being an avid reader of Wings I’d bet he licks every page, including the comments, looking for material for his Alba fetish.

    198. Ruby says:

      stuart mctavish says:
      20 August, 2022 at 7:16 pm

      @Ruby re raffles

      Believe it or not, the fascinating excuse given me for not being able to accept cash in ‘Duty Free’ was health and safety restrictions introduced in response to the pandemic.

      I’ve experienced that quite a lot.
      Edinburgh Leisure thats gyms & swimming pools etc are cash free zones now.
      It started during the pandemic but hasn’t returned to cash & card.

      There are a lot more of these card only self check-outs in supermarkets.
      Too much hassle to count cash, get change & organise floats.

      I’ve also experienced cash only for purchases under £10 because of fees charged by credit card companies.

      Talking of Edinburgh Leisure they are currently running an excellent deal £7 for 7days of unlimited access to swimming, gym, climbing etc

      https://www.edinburghleisure.co.uk/7-days-for-7-pounds

      ends 31 August.

    199. Republicofscotland says:

      England will never let Scotland leave the union, it just can’t afford to.

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/08/20/giving-it-awayfor-free/

    200. Ruby says:

      Geri says:
      20 August, 2022 at 9:00 pm

      Someone said he’d confirmed it on Twitter but I can’t see his account to look.

      Sorry that might have been me. I said it was confirmed on Twitter but it was a joke. I liked the idea of posters replying to Pete whether he was Pete the MP or just another Pete Wishart or even someone takin’ the piss.

      Maybe Pete the MP reads Wings or maybe not but still everyone who reads Wings will know the questions we would like to ask Pete Wishart MP.
      I’m looking forward to more SNP politicians or their ‘namesakes’ posting here.

      How about it?

      Who would you fancy being Geri?
      Think of ‘Stars in their eyes” the political version. 🙂
      Tonight Matthew I am going to be Mike Russell.

      Tonight Matthew I am going to be Nicola Sturgeon.

    201. stuart mctavish says:

      @Ruby

      Brilliant – I aiming for about 7 kilos over similar time frame, deal like that would allow pieces of cake every day to boot

    202. Breastplate says:

      Gregory Beekman,
      Saying that our independence referendum was a once in a generation opportunity was an observation not a promise.

    203. Geri says:

      At the time I took it to be the gravity & importance of getting out to vote as in ..

      ‘Look Scotland, you have this incredible once in a lifetime opportunity, for one day only, ONE DAY where the power shifts to YOU, yes YOU reading this. You’ll hold all the power to effect real & lasting change for Scotland. From the Private Estates to the council schemes, for One day – it’s in your hands. Sieze it while you’ve got it because the opportunity may not return for a generation. Get registered & vote. This isn’t a general election where you have no weight to your voice – this shit is real. The votes honoured! Don’t fuck it up!’

      *But whit aboot ASDA & can we still visit oor rellies?* Came the cries fae the gallery.

      FFS!

    204. StuartM says:

      RoS said

      “Ian Smart, former President of the Law Society of Scotland then claimed that those promoting Scots are “invariably white middle aged, and older, men on the blood and soil wing of the SNP” ”

      (I’ve combined elements of 2 of RoS’s posts for clarity)

      My respect for Scots lawyers has sunk even lower after reading this. Mr Smart is not so smart as he thinks he is. In claiming that independence supporters are racist he displays his own racism, ageism and sexism. Since I presume Mr Not-so-Smart is himself “white”, middle-aged or older, and male, this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. However what I suspect really offends him about Scots speakers is that he considers them lower-class yobs. So add snobbery to his list of misdemeanors.

      Being myself on the other side of 60 I object to people who dismiss my opinions and arguments because I’m “too old”. Similarly I refuse to apologise for my blonde hair and fair skin and by the same token I don’t think anyone is inferior to me on account of their skin pigmentation or hair type. None of us got to pick our grandparents so attributing worth to physical characteristics is nonsensical. BTW there is only one “race” – the human race Homo Sapiens.

      I also refuse to apologise for the Original Sin of being born with a Y chromosome, despite what the feminazis may say. Males are not inherently worse than females (or vice versa) no matter what Germaine Greer may think. Your merit as a person comes from how you behave, not what gender you were born as.

    205. wull says:

      The posts in question could not have been from Pete Wishart the MP. There were no spelling mistakes and they were grammatically correct.

      Although totally mistaken in what they said, these posts from ‘Pete Wishart’ did not rant and rave; they were totally dull and boring, and could be easily understood.

      Their style demonstrates beyond doubt that this ‘Pete Wishart’ was not the MP of that name. There was no sign of any frothing at the mouth.

      On another point: I have never believed that Scotland is a colony of England, or anyone else, and I never will. On the other hand, I do believe that many English people, especially English politicians and members of the establishment, believe that Scotland was colonised by England.

      I believe that their belief is false and mine is correct.

      I also believe that these two beliefs have been locking horns for centuries. When the Arbroath Declaration talks about the English crown’s determination to annihilate entirely (that is, bring to nothing / totally eliminate) the Scottish nation, this English view is what it is talking about. We should not be surprised that it resurfaces now – the truth is it never went away.

      That late 13th Century (and ever ongoing) idea of annihilating and erasing the Scottish nation was not primarily genocidal, but – rather – political. ‘Your nation is no nation; your king is no king and your kingdom is nothing; only our kingdom exists and only our kingdom is real; there will never again be any talk of a Scottish nation because what counts over all of these islands is only the English king and the English nation.’ That was Edward I’s project – the total annihilation of the Scottish nation so that it would no longer be in any sense at all a political entity. And he (and subsequently his successors) very nearly succeeded. If it had not been for Robert Bruce and his authentic supporters what Edward did to Wales in the 13th Century (1280s etc.) would have been done to Scotland (only more so, probably!) in the 1300s.

      In 1296, Edward even thought he had done it, and it looked as if he had, with the defeat and humiliation of John Balliol, stripped not only of his kingly but even of his knightly dignity and the capture of all the emblems of Scotland and its reduction to the status of a ‘land’ under the English crown, and no longer a kingdom in its own right. In 1304 even more so, when all of Scotland seemed to have submitted to Edward’s rule. If the Bruce monarchy had not been created, and if Bruce had not eventually become the leader that he was, that would have been it – curtains for Scotland.

      The framer(s) of the Arbroath Declaration of 1320 was fully aware of all that.

      We really should not be surprised that these English attitudes – which are indeed imperial, colonial and essentially aimed at the annihilation of Scotland (its reduction to precisely nothing) are still alive and well. It is a constant in Anglo-Scottish relations, even if it comes and goes and above all always comes back again, in wave after wave. It has been there throughout the last 700+ years and in fact goes back, at least in intention, well before that.

      So why are we surprised to see this virulent and nasty thing raise its nasty head again? Why be astonished that these modern Unionists – besides Frost you can include Truss, and Sunak too – are not Unionists at all? The same old English imperial, colonial would-be annihilators of Scotland, and everything Scotland stands for, that have been there for hundreds of years. And don’t think Sunak will be any different because of his Asian background – he is very much an English Asian. His Asian origins probably only make him even more determined to prove to his public how completely and quintessentially English he is – and that includes demonstrating a typically English attitude towards Scotland and the Scots.

      As for us, instead of being surprised or astonished, our job, as Scots, is simply to resist and oppose this English nonsense. This fundamentally English blood-and-soil bullsh*t has to be resisted for the plain and simple reason that it is a lie. No matter how urbanely it is presented, or with what seemingly civilised sophistication it is dressed up, it is a lie. And underneath, everyone from Edward I onwards, no matter how much they tried to kid themselves and others to the contrary, knew very well in their heart of hearts that it was all lies.

      We, as Scots, also have to resist this because this lie is bad for everyone, not just us. And we have colluded with it too often, and for too long, much to our own detriment.

      The English lie towards Scotland, ever-recurring, is the lie that founds the whole imperial and colonial lie which England pursued throughout the whole world and which, despite the current attempt to revive it, is now well and truly a busted flush. It is bad for the English people themselves to continue to believe that lie.

      And it is bad for the world that England is trying to perpetuate the lie, in new ways. It reinvented itself as a no-longer-controlled rogue state through the Brexit vote, led with a whole series of lies by the rogue would-be PM Boris Johnson. In the froth of his imagination, he was recreating the great nation that was morally better than everyone else, and therefore fully justified in bashing and exploiting everyone else for its own advantage and benefit, beginning with these pesky Scots. And then moving outwards from there into the whole globe. The lies simply multiply, as one lie builds on another.

      Of course, we too have our share of blame in this. While the Union did legally preserve Scotland as a political entity, it clearly weakened her. The part the Darien disaster played in bringing about the Union is also noteworthy, and ironic. We should have been the anti-imperial nation par excellence. Our attempt to become an imperial nation, in Panama etc., was a factor in our undoing or, at least, in our being seriously wounded and weakened.

      You could say that Scotland’s historic mission was metaphorically to p*ss on England’s border – and to defend and maintain that border – thereby being one of the forces holding back English expansionism. That was a major factor in maintaining the balance of power in late Medieval Europe, for instance throughout the Hundred Years’ War. The border between Scotland and England is a real thing, and England needed to be held in check there. Instead of opposing, however, once weakened by the Union, we colluded with England’s (expansionist / imperial) project rather than being an obstacle to it. Just think how different the outcome of the Seven Years’ War of 1756-63 (or thereabouts) would have been if the Scots had not fought on the English side. If they had been on the French side, or even if they had just been neutral, the whole history of North America, and hence of the world, could have been completely different from what actually transpired.

      We can also apply all this to two views of the Union of 1707, which I could characterise as ‘theirs’ and ‘mine’. Or as the typically English view of it (theirs) as opposed to what I think has always been the Scottish view of it, at least after many or most Scots came to accommodate or acquiesce in the Union arrangements (from late 18th and early 19th Century through to the 1980s or 90s).

      The Scottish view of it is legal, and takes seriously the actual terms of the Treaty/Treaties of Union of 1707. The English view ignores these totally and pretends that, effectively, Scotland no longer exists, and has been subsumed into England.

      This English view has no basis in law. It totally ignores the Treaty/ Treaties which actually constituted the UK in the first place (and which still legally constitute it), and acts as if these legal realities do not exist. Underlying, often unspoken but nonetheless real and sometimes overt attitudes of contempt and superiority ensue …

      England has propagated this myth, which has no legal foundation – namely, that England IS the UK – not only to its own people but also throughout the world. The fact that this view, this assumption, has no legal foundation should have been challenged immediately by the Scottish Government after the Brexit vote, and taken to the European court.

      The EU was obliged to deal with the UK in accordance with the UK’s constitution. However, it did not do so. It had swallowed the English myth hook, line and sinker, and acted as if it was true. This mistake was aided and abetted by the the feeble Scottish Government’s unwillingness and inability to mount the legal challenge to that myth that was required at that moment.

      You could argue that the failure of the Scottish government at that key moment, immediately following the Brexit referendum, was virtually criminal, in that it betrayed the clearly stated wishes of the Scottish people.

      Perhaps you could also be on the mark if you imagine that this was the crucial moment when the parting of the ways between NS and AS became definitive. There is every possibility that AS urged NS (in no uncertain terms) to appeal to Europe through taking this constitutional route, in order to ensure that Scotland got what she voted for and remained within the EU. No doubt, as we may imagine AS would have pointed out, this would eventually have resulted in the UK breaking up. Scotland would become an independent country in the EU (as the SNP had been advocating all along) and England would go its own way (outside the EU).

      Or else England would have had to buckle and say what was in fact true, namely that the Brexit referendum was only consultative, not obligatory. And on that basis Westminster could have decided not to act on it, since maintaining the Union with Scotland was more important to it than leaving that other Union, the EU. That would have proved that at least some of what the Better Together campaign had claimed had truth in it. The fact that it did not happen proved the opposite – far from being a valued partner in a union of equals, when push came to shove, England would override Scotland and treat her merely as one subjected to the wishes of the English people.

      That is actually what happened at Brexit. It’s new, and almost certainly in itself a most serious breach of both the spirit and the letter of the Union between England and Scotland. The people who talk about their ‘beloved Union’ have actually ripped it up, and are now determined to shred it into dust once and for always. The spirit of Edward I is not dead at all; it rides again!

      Another element to add: if you want to turn what happened inside the SNP into a drama – and surely the history of the relationship between AS and NS is indeed the stuff of high drama (Scotland seems to specialise in this sort of thing: think of Mary Queen of Scots, and many another example from Scottish history) – if you want to turn it into a drama, you can imagine AS strongly proposing the constitutional, Scotland-in-Europe way forward to independence and NS opposing that trajectory tooth and nail. Why would she do that? Perhaps for the simplest of reasons: maybe she would not have it just because AS wanted her to go there. If she felt AS was pressurising her to go in that direction, she would be all the more determined not to.

      Obtuse? Yes! Maybe… Who knows?

      No way would she pursue that self-evident path – so at least we may surmise – for the simple reason it was coming from him, and not from her. Maybe she just dug her heels in: she was now the leader, no way would she follow any prompting from him – she would do it ‘her way’ (echoes of Frank Sinatra)! ‘My way… Or the highway, Alex!’

      If so, what a ‘highway’ it turned out to be…

      That is all pure speculation, of course. Good drama, all the same – and the thing about good theatre is that it does at some level reflect reality, and make you think about themes that seem to recur perennially, even in different circumstances. They are ‘old chestnuts’ because they reverberate with something deep (and therefore recurrent) in human nature. Even the kind of things within us that we tend not to want to see, or look at, but they are definitely there – that’s why we avert our eyes, and blind ourselves, even to our own reality.

      Maybe NS was determined to develop some cunning plan of her own that would be better than AS’s, and would achieve independence more effectively than any idea coming from him. So – just maybe – she dug her (stiletto?) heels in – dug them in deep – and adamantly, vehemently, uncompromisingly would not, would never, go his way, or agree with anything he suggested.

      I am not in a position to say that this did actually happen. How do I know? But if it did, it would mean that the greatest opportunity we ever had for restoring Scotland’s full independence, and breaking up the UK, was ultimately lost for reasons of purely personal antipathy, competition and antagonism. If so, this is utterly tragic. That such pettiness could wreck a whole movement.

      I think NS did formulate plans which she thought would win independence, at least for a while. I think that to begin with she really did want to prove herself in that regard. And that, for her, meant proving that she was better at this (gaining our independence) than AS had been. She was going to do, by her own methods (and cunning plans) what he had failed to do by his! And she devised plans which she tried to implement, but they all failed – because they were all overtaken by events that she couldn’t control. Harold MacMillan’s ‘events, dear boy, events!’ or something to that effect.

      And the biggest event that scuppered her (though it didn’t have to) was the unexpected election that Teresa May called. NS had not expected that, or factored it in. She had presumed (quite reasonably) that she was going to sit with a full complement of SNP MPs at Westminster for a whole parliamentary term. May’s intention of getting a clear mandate for herself from that election did not work out, but she did get something from it that worked well for undermining the NS-led SNP.

      It was an entirely unintended consequence, but an important one for keeping Scotland shackled. The result effectively undermined NS, and whatever her plans were, simply because the SNP lost a number of seats. Strangely, although there was still an SNP majority at Westminster, but NS was rattled, and it showed. Actually, she had won (not as handsomely as in 2015, but she/her SNP was still the winner), but despite that victory, she began acting like a loser, and started shifting whatever her original plan had been accordingly.

      I think NS lost confidence at that moment, and she changed course, becoming even more cautious. And not just cautious, but fearful. And fearful not just of not being able to achieve independence, but also of not being able to hang on to her position as First Minister, which mattered a huge amount to her.

      From there on, retaining that position became paramount for her, and it was all downhill for ‘her way’ of gaining independence. Until, in the end, she didn’t have a plan for independence at all, as became apparent in that long awaited statement in January 2020 (or was it 2019?) which turned out to be the most heralded damp squib – or unexploding bombshell – ever launched in the entirety of the SNP’s history.

      And since then, she has fallen back almost entirely in regard to independence, and concentrated almost exclusively on various other pet agenda of hers, like GRA etc. These now demonstrate where her heart and her deepest commitments actually lie. They no doubt always did, though she might not have been completely aware of that fact.

      She is not opposed to independence but it now turns out that it is not – emphatically NOT – the driving force or main motivation of her political career, and never has been.

      That might even have been something of a revelation to herself. Or maybe she knew it all along. Who knows? Whatever the case, it now seems undeniable. Her real priorities are other things, and insofar as independence might also feature, it is entirely secondary to these other things. In that regard, as in so many others, she is the antithesis of AS.

      Maybe AS means ALL for Scotland; maybe NS just means, whatever else she might be or wish to be, she is definitely NOT SALMOND! And doesn’t want to be. If she wanted and still wants to leave her mark on Scotland, and on all of us, it has to be something radically different from anything Salmond did or represented. After an SNP forged in the image of Salmond, this new SNP of NS must be quite different from that, and even its opposite. Whatever else it might be, it must not be like his SNP. This is the antithesis: the anti-Salmond SNP.

      The personal has predominated over the political. The personal, that is, in terms of rivalries and hatreds and jealousy, and everything that is flawed and destructive within us. As the posts made by the ‘Pete Wishart’ on this thread, above, so amply demonstrate. And the genuinely political – the polity, Scotland itself and the Scottish people – is impaled on these antipathies. Everything, including reality itself, is skewered, and becomes a complete mess. In genuine politics, people sink their personal differences in order to achieve a common good, which is greater and more important (and more noble) than themselves. AS is still trying to do that. With NS in charge of the SNP, it’s simply not going to happen.

      But in the end, the lie or lies – whether ours or that of others, or those pursued by any vendetta-driven individual – will not prevail. They will have their little day, and it will be seriously uncomfortable for a while, but truth will eventually overcome them. Lies inherently contradict each other, and eventually bring their own house tumbling down.

      So, don’t lose heart. Steady as she goes…

    206. Ruby says:

      StuartM says:
      21 August, 2022 at 1:37 am

      I also refuse to apologise for the Original Sin of being born with a Y chromosome, despite what the feminazis may say. Males are not inherently worse than females (or vice versa) no matter what Germaine Greer may think. Your merit as a person comes from how you behave, not what gender you were born as.

      https://archive.ph/jpQgY

      Have you read or listened to anything about Jordan B Peterson?
      I get the impression the feminazis hate him.

      Having a feminazis as first minister is as bad an idea as having a misogynist.
      Not sure what Sturgeon is ….. she seems to be both. A Faminazi Misogynist

    207. Breeks says:


      wull says:
      21 August, 2022 at 5:20 am.

      I believe that their belief is false and mine is correct.

      I think you’re spot on with the English colonialism Wull, although in a strange way, it only feels like half the story.

      England’s avarice and colonial intentions are transparent and all too easily understood, but I think Scotland’s obdurate but ephemeral resistance to English control is more difficult to unravel. It’s complex, and thus more difficult to articulate, and thus more easily forgotten.

      Where the English wanted dominance, I believe Scotland was wearied by war, and was more than once seduced by the prospect of peace. I believe the bitterness which soured relations for centuries was caused by the perfidious promises of the English, who were much more fickle about peace.

      That Scotland played a fulsome part in building the British Empire is undeniable I think, however once again, there’s a complexity to that part of the story that is similarly difficult to articulate. In real terms, what other choice did they have?

      I think Darien typifies Scotland’s own attitude towards Imperialism, which was not conquering by force, by commanding, through technological superiority. It was still Imperialism, but a much less malignant imperialism, (although who can say what it might have evolved to become?).

      I’m going to disagree with you about Sturgeon. Sturgeon to my mind is an incurable and dangerous narcissist, and her antipathy towards Salmond doesn’t have it’s origins in the real world, but in Sturgeon’s head; a consequence of the grotesquely twisted reality of a Narcissist and their “imagined” nemesis. A Narcissist NEEDS somebody to hate, and to hate themirrationally, and unfortunately for Alex Salmond, he was her chosen victim.

      Sturgeon has no talent or acumen. None. That is, she is an accomplished liar and a charlatan, but in terms of leadership ability and capacity for progression of Scottish Independence, her arsenal is completely empty.

      She has not capacity to think strategically, no ability to plan ahead, no ability to plan full stop, no creativity or initiative, in practical terms… nothing.

      Without meaning to blow my own trumpet, Sturgeon has been a dismal disappointment to me from the day she took office, when Scotland was waking up to the complete dishonesty of the notorious vow.

      If you remember, the Vow broke Purdah, swung the vote, and many believe the last minute option of full fiscal autonomy was enough to swing the result. However the “Vow” was just an ambiguous promise of “more powers”, and those powers were never specified in detail.

      Had Sturgeon been a fighter, she could have seized the initiative and held a Plebiscite in late 2014 or early 2015 and had the Scottish electorate vote on which powers they wanted returned to Scotland. Westminster would have been bent out of shape trying to accommodate that… but Sturgeon let them off the hook.

      I firmly believe if she’d done that, Scotland would have been Independent in all but name, and Broadcasting and Constitutional matters would have Scottish portfolios.

      But Sturgeon did nothing. She’s been a dud, a very real Toom Tabard from the very beginning, but 95% of Scotland refused to see it because they didn’t want to believe it.

    208. Rab Davis says:

      Ruby

      One thing we do know about Sturgeon is her hatred of men.
      She utterly detests us.
      The only men she will tolerate either has to be Ultra Woke gay (Mr Murrell), or men who are signed up to have their dick chopped off

      Her opinions on women are more confusing.

      Being a lesbian you would think Sturgeon would be a staunch supporter of women’s rights,,,but then she suddenly does a complete U-turn and is all for men to enter women’s Safe places.

      And when asked, she can’t even define what a woman actually is.

      So all in all Sturgeon seems to be one mixed up person.

      But women are definitely her target voters, with her baby boxes and tampons and of course her fight against arch rapist Alex Salmond.

      She is a poisonous mix of a man hating narcissist.

      And should be nowhere near the leadership of the Indy movement.

    209. John Main says:

      @StuartM 1:37 am

      The arguments on here typically drag on for days or weeks, and sometimes head off on tangents so that readers forget how they started.

      From what I can see, this one started as a result of one of Republic’s daily outbreaks of synthetic outrage over some throwaway online comment.

      So, getting back to basics, this is a pro-Indy site. The majority consensus on here is that New Scots predominantly vote No. The majority consensus on here is that New Scots typically show little interest in Scottish history, culture, languages or our historically unique identity.

      Ergo, should New Scots be encouraged? No.

      Should any legal means of discouraging Indy-hostile New Scots from coming here be discouraged? No.

      Simples.

      Of course, some will want to cite Jock Tamson’s Bairns, or claim that we Scots just naturally fall at the kinder, more generous and more friendly end of the human behavioural spectrum.

      And that may actually be true. Nevertheless, to repeat, this is a pro-Indy site. Encouragement of attitudes that serves to harm the Indy cause is to be discouraged.

    210. John Main says:

      @Breeks 8:30

      I am always impressed by a post praising Scottish exceptionalism, so thanks for yours.

      I like your idea of Scotland as a less malignant imperialist. Should we be seeking to redefine Scotland as a “benign imperialist”? It has a certain ring to it.

      Just out of sheer coincidence, it was educational to see Griff Rhys Jones last night on TV, dressing up in a kilt as a Fraser Highlander, in order to participate in a re-enactment of the Battle of Quebec. The battle that effectively transferred the vast expanse and unimaginable riches of Canada from one group of imperialists to another.

      And so it goes. One quarter of the atlas was pink at one time, and everywhere those patches of land were being seized, Scots were in the vanguard.

      Must have been comforting to the disposessed and the murdered, when they were lucky enough to be on the receiving end of a Scottish benign imperialist’s depredations.

    211. John Main says:

      @Wull

      A long post, containing much of interest.

      But I stopped reading when you started to pine for Scotland inside the EU.

      There are no Independent countries inside the EU.

      If even your much hated English imperialist colonisers could recognise and understand that fact, why the fuck can’t you?

    212. Alf Baird says:

      StuartM @ 1:37

      “My respect for Scots lawyers has sunk even lower after reading this. Mr Smart is not so smart as he thinks he is. In claiming that independence supporters are racist he displays his own racism”

      Colonialism, as we know, is racism, and can also lead to ‘internalized racism’ suffered by the oppressed group. There are ‘two psychical and cultural realms’ in the colonial situation. The elites, including native/aspiring elites, tend to inhabit one of these realms, that of the dominant culture. Many native speakers first discover this other psychical and cultural realm as soon as they enter a classroom, a courtroom, or any public institution or corporation.

      This is why Fanon describes independence as ‘a fight for a national culture’.

    213. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 9.54 am

      The trouble for those like opposed to EU membership for Scotland, or indeed opposed to the EU as a concept, is that your view remains very much the minority. The overwhelming majority of both pro and anti independence Scots are pro EU. That’s not going to change any time soon.

      Even those slightly more sceptical of the EU, a group in which I’d include myself by the way, don’t accept your facile false equivalence that being in the EU magically renders its members “not independent” in the same sense as Scotland within the UK is not independent.

      Pooling aspects of your sovereignty in an association like the EU is not the same as being one of the constituent parts of the UK. Trying to posit some linkage between the motivations for brexit and the motivations for Scottish independence is just plain wrong, sorry: nobody in Scotland will take that remotely seriously.

    214. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Wull & Breeks –

      Really interesting comments to see first thing.

      So far as Sturgeon goes, isn’t the most obvious explanation for her behaviour that she was ‘got to’?

      Any conspiracy theorist worthy of the name has heard the one about every US President since Kennedy being shown the truth of what happened to him as soon as they’ve been sworn in and told ‘behave yourself, or else’.

      Same thing could have happened to her. Some Sir Humphrey type visited Bute House on the qt and had a wee word? Not to say that she was explicitly threatened with public assassination but she’s clearly blackmail material and probably always was.

      It would help explain the dead eyes which draw so much comment. Something in her withered away post-2014 and there’s no logical reason to expect it to spark back into life anytime soon.

    215. robbo says:

      John Min

      There are no Independent countries within the UK apart from England. Get up aff yer knees man!

      I’m sure you can furnish us with all the great benefits from leaving since 2016?

      Did Truss ever sort out the NZ lamb issue or are you enjoying yer wee Scottish lamb et din dins today?

    216. Mark Boyle says:

      John Main says:
      21 August, 2022 at 9:54 am

      @Wull

      A long post, containing much of interest.

      But I stopped reading when you started to pine for Scotland inside the EU.

      I stopped reading once it became clear it was double album sized.

      There’s been an outbreak of three thousand word long posts of late – leave that pish for your own blogs if you want to elaborate on a point to prog rock lengths FFS folks.

    217. Wally Jumblatt says:

      seen elsewhere

      “Alok Sharma, the Business Secretary, has launched the Government’s White Paper on the UK internal market. It proposes transferring 111 powers that are currently held by the EU to the Scottish government, 70 powers to the Welsh government and 157 to Northern Ireland without any competences currently enjoyed in Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast being transferred in the other direction to Whitehall.”

      Within the white paper, it suggests a body be convened which would rule on any disputes between the four nations when (over time) each diverges from previously common standards and they are trying to sell goods and services betwen each other.

      ….. Ian Blackford, the SNP’s leader at Westminster, has described it as a “plan to impose an unelected, unaccountable body to rule on decisions made by the Scottish parliament” adding, “the decisions of the Scottish parliament must and will be decided by the Scottish people, sorry Brussels.”….

    218. Breeks says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      21 August, 2022 at 10:21 am
      @Wull & Breeks –

      Really interesting comments to see first thing.

      So far as Sturgeon goes, isn’t the most obvious explanation for her behaviour that she was ‘got to’?

      Any conspiracy theorist worthy of the name has heard the one about every US President since Kennedy being shown the truth of what happened to him as soon as they’ve been sworn in and told ‘behave yourself, or else’.

      Yeah, I agree to a point. But Alex Salmond had proven resilient to any such pressure, so unless they had something specific on Sturgeon, (and maybe they did),, I have doubts about that being the full explanation.

      Then again, that footage of Sturgeon at the Hydro is spooky considering the metamorphosis that came over her…

      But I think you could be right about the swearing in… It was either the point where pressure was applied, moral inhibitions were released, the Manchurian Candidate was activated, or the doppelgänger was swapped in and the real Sturgeon was carted off to a dungeon and life in an iron mask.

    219. Andy Ellis says:

      @Mark Boyle 10.44 am

      Preach brother. It’s the Effie Deans-ish stream of consciousness, “why use one word where 10 will do!” school of editing.

      Doubtless Mia will be along directly to tell us all, at excruciating length, why we are indeed a colony.

      Still, it could be worse, we could be treated the pompous prose and constipated verbosity of “Thinker. Listener. Talker. Reader. Writer.” Peter A Bell of a Sunday morning. 🙂

    220. Breeks says:

      Alf Baird says:
      21 August, 2022 at 10:04 am

      … There are ‘two psychical and cultural realms’ in the colonial situation.

      Aye.. what Malcom X described as “house negros” and “field negros”, and where we Scots are borrowing the term “house jocks”.

    221. Andy Ellis says:

      Yeah, I agree to a point. But Alex Salmond had proven resilient to any such pressure, so unless they had something specific on Sturgeon, (and maybe they did),, I have doubts about that being the full explanation.

      And here was me thinking the tin-foil shortage was related to brexit or commodity shortages attributable to Vlad’s War: now we know that the moonhowlers have been using it all to line every square inch of their houses.

      Nobody would have given a flying fuck at a rolling donut if Sturgeon HAD been exposed for some peccadillo though. When Fluffy Mundell came out, few batted an eye lid. You don’t need convoluted and increasingly fanciful conspiracy theories to explain Sturgeon’s behaviour and lack of progress.

      She actually believes in what she’s doing, and in some ways that’s even worse than fanciful notions and pinning your faith in her having been blackmailed in to driving the indy movement up a cul-de-sac. Look at her background: a very mediocre lawyer, a plodder who had to try multiple times over many years to get elected and make any progress.

      She finally hitched her wagon to far more able and charismatic political mentor, only to turn on him and connive in his attempted character assassination in a vain attempt to bolster and entrench her own hold on the party once it became obvious she lacked the intellectual and political height for the independence ride.

      The problem with conspiracy theories of course is that they fall apart when they are adequately debunked by quotidian explanations. Sturgeon isn’t some Svengali figure, or a machiavellian “great betrayer”, she’s just a mediocrity who got promoted way above her ability level, and got lucky that circumstances placed her in the right place at the right time, only to see her manifest character flaws, lack of political ability and narcissism to becalm and hollow out a formerly vibrant and progressive mass movement.

    222. Republicofscotland says:

      “And here was me thinking the tin-foil shortage was related to brexit or commodity shortages attributable to Vlad’s War:”

      If there’s a shortage of anything it due to the idiotic Wests sanctions that are hurting the West more, mind you trolls are determined to blow the ZNPP maybe wrapping it in tinfoil will save it.

      Meanwhile 3000+ turned out for the Inverness AUOB march yesterday they were calling for the movement to go forward as one.

      Some photo’s included.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20679923.inverness-one-banner-independence-march-hears-call-unity%2F

    223. Ruby says:

      Rab Davis says:
      21 August, 2022 at 9:23 am

      But women are definitely her target voters, with her baby boxes and tampons

      I agree she definitely hates men.

      How would you explain the appointment of Mr Period/Mr Menopause?
      I see that as a big fuck you to women.

      https://tinyurl.com/2rjcyr6u

      FF to hear Peter Hitchins say

      I find Nicola Sturgeon to be a pretty cliched and banal figure

      Is she an independence support or a unionist?
      Is she a feminist or a misogynist?
      Is she a politician or an attention seeking celebrity?
      Is she a model or a photographer?
      Is she a lesbian or a happily married straight woman

      I would go along with Peter Hitchins she is a cliched banal figure with zero substance.

      She seems to just jump on any bandwagon that comes along.
      Feminist bandwagon she jumped on that
      Along came the MeToo bandwagon and she jumped on that
      Then came the Trans bandwagon

      Not sure why she decided on the baby boxes. Was it trendy?

      Every bandwagon she jumps on results in an unholy mess.

      I never paid much attention to Sturgeon until she fired Mark MacDonald for sending a text.

      What I found pretty strange about that was that men were either very quiet or were happy to stick the knife into Mark MacDonald.

      PS (Oh wait there are tampons in the gent’s toilets and men get baby boxes when they give birth. )
      Maybe she likes you. 🙂

    224. Andy Ellis says:

      Meanwhile 3000+ turned out for the Inverness AUOB march yesterday they were calling for the movement to go forward as one.

      I wonder if Drew Hendry thinks AUOB includes Alba or what he thinks on AIM’s Code of Conduct….?

    225. Ruby says:

      Will it be possible for the YES movement to go forward as one before the Sturgeon/Salmond volcano has erupted?

      Can this volcano erupt before independence or will it have to wait until after we are independent?

      Just been listen to the Peter Hitchins video in which the situation between Salmond & Sturgeon is referred to as a volcano waiting to erupt.

      Not quite sure why we need to go forward as one?

      Could we not just be many groups with different ideas but all supporting independence.

      The SNP can have their own group with their own rules and regulations as to what their members can say or do.

      I don’t fancy being part of that group or any group they are part of.

      PS Peter Hitchins reckons it was Gordon Brown wot won it for Better Together in 2014.

    226. Breeks says:

      Just a “not so” minor point which actually relates to Rev Stu’s article.

      “IF” the Treaty of Union marked the end of both Scotland and England, and created a single UK entity, then why isn’t Elizabeth actually Elizabeth 1st, the first ever Queen Elizabeth of UK?

      She is only Elizabeth 11 in the context of England… an extinguished concept no longer applicable after 1707 (according to some)…

    227. Ruby says:

      It would be great if Drew Henry followed in Pete Wishart’s footsteps and gave us a visit?

      Comfy Slippers optional Drew.

    228. Ruby says:

      Breeks says:
      21 August, 2022 at 11:51 am

      “IF” the Treaty of Union marked the end of both Scotland and England,

      Did the UK legal advice not say that Scotland was extinguished in 1707 and became lesser England?

      If you don’t believe that or any of the colony stuff then perhaps you can believe that Scotland was transgender transitioned in 1707 had bottom surgery and has been taking HRT every since.

      Basically Scotland was born in the wrong body.

      I’ll have to go and look at the UK legal advice again. It might confirm that Scotland is in fact a colony

    229. DavidRitchie says:

      Someone should have asked Paisley Liz whats the name of the local fiba team

    230. Jeremy says:

      @ Breeks 11.51 am

      I did read somewhere once that the convention on numbering monarchs is apparently that it follows whichever the highest number of them in either of the former kingdoms has been. So, for example, if there were to be another King James, he would be James VIII, even though England has only had two so far. I don’t know where the source for ascertaining that would be at the moment though.

    231. Andy Ellis says:

      Meanwhile 3000+ turned out for the Inverness AUOB march yesterday they were calling for the movement to go forward as one.

      Because the Statute of Westminster in 1931 accepted the general principle for use in newly independent Dominions that in such cases that the “higher regnal number” practice would apply. That was then used when Elizabeth came to the throne. The ruling in MacCormick v Lord Advocate (1953) was that the use of the numeral “II” was a correct use of the Royal Prerogative and hence valid in Scots law.

      Churchill announced in the Commons in 1953 that he and the Scottish Secretary had agreed a formula so that regnal numbers would be counted for English monarchs from 1066 and for Scottish monarchs from 1306, with the “higher number” being applied. So, any future UK monarch adopting the name James, Robert or David would be advised to follow the Scottish regnal numbers.

      It would mean, a future King James of the UK would be styled James VIII and not James III. Similarly, even though there has never been an English King Robert, any future king wishing to chose that regnal name will be known as Robert IV because there have been three Kings Robert in Scotland since 1306.

    232. Andy Ellis says:

      @Breeks

      Apologies, my 12.34 pm comment was meant to be in response to your earlier:

      “IF” the Treaty of Union marked the end of both Scotland and England, and created a single UK entity, then why isn’t Elizabeth actually Elizabeth 1st, the first ever Queen Elizabeth of UK?

      Cut and paste failure!

    233. Ruby says:

      It looks to me as the only thing the treaty of the Union did was change the name of England to the United Kingdom.

      When they say united they mean Scotland was taken over, colonised bought and sold for English gold but they couldn’t just start calling the whole of the land England that would have given away the game so the decided to call England the United Kingdom.

      https://archive.ph/3r6Ok
      Tory minister is ‘no fan of four nations expression’ for the union

      https://archive.ph/gMuXd

      British diplomats told to call UK one country instead of a union of four nations

      My experience was been that the UK and England are interchangeable.

      Elizabeth 1
      Elizabeth 2
      or
      Charles 69

      QFMD…….

    234. Ruby says:

      For many years I was referred to as la ‘petite anglaise’ but before I had time to explain I was asked why I had burned Joan of Arc.

      I have posted this already but now the worry would be that I would be accused of being a transphobe because it was believed that I had burned Joan of Arc.

      What is the French for someone from one nation UK
      Royaume-Uniaise?

    235. JGedd says:

      Yes, regnal numbers. Seems fair doesn’t it, the agreed formula for monarchs? So, if there ever is a King Robert, James or David then the higher regnal number of Scotland would apply. Except, I have been quietly confident, with every naming of a new prince, that none of those names would ever be used. Even when there was a prince known as David in Royal circles, on succeeding to the throne, he chose the regnal name of Edward and in his short reign was styled Edward VIII. On succeeding, the monarch can choose their regnal name. ( There was even idle speculation among folk who care about such things that Charles on accession might choose a different regnal name – such as George – because of certain unhappy associations with the fate of a previous King Charles.)

      Anyone like to hazard a guess that the formula was drawn up with that assumption confidently in mind? I’m sure the royal family is also aware of the political implications in their choice of names for heirs. As long as there is a UK monarchy, with political sensitivities in mind, probably there never will be a Robert, David or James ( just as I’m sure there will never be a Princess Tracey or Sharon or a Prince Jason but that’s for ‘other reasons’)

      Personally, in my idea of an independent Scotland, this would all be of no account since there wouldn’t be a monarchy and regnal names and numbers would be of no interest except to historians – or people posting comments on blogs on a Sunday. Like me.

    236. Saffron Robe says:

      I have to say that my Mum said from the very beginning, even before she was leader, that she couldn’t stand and didn’t trust Nicola Sturgeon, and has said ever since that we will never be independent as long as she is leader. Sturgeon’s character has always been suspect for those not blinded by hope. The writing was on the wall the moment she took a train ride with Mrs Battenberg and all of a sudden the name of the Southern General was changed even after the headed notepaper and bus timetables had been printed up. Someone who is so easily bought, with such shakeable convictions and lack of integrity, is not someone you want to be leading the cause of national liberation. As she has proven time and again, she is nothing but a liability and a danger to that cause.

    237. Gregory Beekman says:

      Geri @7:57

      Thanks

    238. Gregory Beekman says:

      Breastplate @ 11:01

      Thanks

    239. Dorothy Devine says:

      Saffron Robe, you have just reminded me of the rage I felt over the Southern being renamed at such ridiculous cost. I do not understand how anyone could justify that or why it was accepted without so much as a huge grumble.

    240. Gregory Beekman says:

      Republicofscotland @6:35

      Thanks

    241. Saffron Robe says:

      JGedd, very good comment re regnal numbers. I agree completely.

    242. Gregory Beekman says:

      Garavelli Princip @5:41

      Thanks.

      Hadn’t realised Churchill always referred to UK as England – or was even just referring to England!

      It is noticeable that it’s only because of 2014’s indyref that politicians and media have begun to change their terminology, but they really don’t like it.

      Even on Sky news today, the presenter said “with the new school term just around the corner” (in a piece about cost of school uniforms), totally ignoring the fact that schools in Scotland have already returned. So the new school term has already started!

      It’s this kind of casual racism – or ignorance – that I can’t stand. How hard is it for journalists to learn about the nature of the UK? If we can learn it, why can’t they?

    243. Gregory Beekman says:

      On this once-in-a-generation referendum opportunity line…

      I really wish Salmond & Sturgeon hadn’t used that line.

      Let’s all agree that NOTHING should ever be described like that again!!!

    244. James che says:

      Will,
      Breeks,
      Re you’re conversations yesterday on the two varying views of how Two sides of the treaty see it differently.

      The reason is to be found in the creation of the treaty itself.

      If the parliament of England ceased to exist to make way for the creation of the new Great Britain parliament,
      Then England’s parliament of 1706 could not legally continue to enter into the treaty of union,

      If on the other hand The English parliament claims it continued and entered into the new Great British parliament,
      Then we have to remember legally the Scots have No treaty with the New creation of the Great Britain Parliament.

    245. Rab Davis says:

      Gregory Beekman 2.15pm

      Regards the casual racism on Sky News,,, have you noticed that they still use the tilted earth view of the UK when showing us the weather forecast.

      Them and ITV News still use the tilted view of the map,,, which I put down to an inferiority complex the English have.

      They want to be seen as being visibly larger than any other Nation in the UK.
      The BBC had to give us a true view of the British isles when doing their weather forecasts because of the amount of complaints they received.

      Maybe a bit more pressure should be put on Sky News and ITV News to start giving us a true view of the British isles and not the English view, where Cornwall is the same size as the whole of Scotland.

    246. Republicofscotland says:

      Cinderella’s ugly sisters are tour Scotland and try and convince of the merits of being in the union, if there are any, which I doubt.

      “BARONESS Ruth Davidson and Arlene Foster are reportedly planning a “whistle-stop tour” of the UK to drum up flagging support for the Union in a move branded “desperate”.

      Former Scottish Conservative leader Davidson and the former-DUP leader are set to go on a tour of the UK in an attempt to highlight the benefits of staying within the Union, The Sun reports.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20680201.ruth-davidson-arlene-foster-uk-tour-plan-drum-union-support%2F

    247. Republicofscotland says:

      Hurrah!!!

      Another poll says we’re on our way out of this union, that’ll be the umpteenth poll, if you are counting that is, but don’t hold your breath, we’re going nowhere any time soon.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20679998.independence-likely-regardless-prime-minister-new-poll-reveals%2F

    248. Breeks says:

      Gregory Beekman says:
      21 August, 2022 at 2:17 pm
      On this once-in-a-generation referendum opportunity line…

      I really wish Salmond & Sturgeon hadn’t used that line.

      Let’s all agree that NOTHING should ever be described like that again!!!

      It makes no difference. If it wasn’t that particular line, they’d only have fixated on some other piece of nonsense and twisted that before blowing it out of all proportion. It’s what the enemy media does to stifle debate, and in turn, stifle democracy.

      Think about it… If Unionism was strong and confident of it’s case, they’d be content to have a referendum at the drop of a hat.

      Instead, they’re terrified of losing, don’t have any compelling arguments likely to win any debates, and thus their best defence is to stifle democracy by preventing or delaying another ballot.

      The Unionist fixation on “once in a generation” is basically a lazy form of cowardice, and a tacit admission of defeat when they have to avoid holding the argument they know they cannot win.

      I also think to a great extent they don’t like to be reminded of how they had to cheat and lie to “win” the first referendum. They know that won’t wash twice while their lies and deception is so fresh in the minds of the electorate.

    249. Republicofscotland says:

      Sturgeon knows fine well the UKSC will knock down any hopes of holding an indyref next year if this guys right.

      “CLAIMS from a former top advisor to Alex Salmond that taking Westminster to court over indyref2 are a “waste of time and money” have been dismissed as “speculation”.

      “Alex Bell, who helped negotiate the Edinburgh Agreement leading to the 2014 vote, has claimed the Supreme Court case “is a piece of theatre designed to disguise how the SNP has failed nationalists”.

      Nicola Sturgeon “does not expect the law to satisfy her”, said Bell, claiming that the Scottish Government know their bid is doomed because lawyers told the Scottish Government prior to 2014 it could not hold an independence referendum without Westminster’s consent.”

      And if by some miracle the UKSC did allow the Scottish government to hold an indyref, the result if yes won would not be acted up

      Tommy Sheppard lets the cat out the bag on the above.

      “There is nothing to my mind in the devolution legislation that prevents the Scottish Government from asking people that question.

      “Of course, it doesn’t have the competence to act upon it but to ask people what they think is the proper process of government and is within the general competence of the Scottish Government.”

      Bell added.

      “He wrote: “The legal ruling may work as an exit event that allows Sturgeon to get a UN job in Geneva with her head held high, but it will be of no significance to Scotland.

      “The Supreme Court will say no, she will claim to have done her best, and the SNP’s indy vehicle will splutter on.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20680139.alex-bell-claims-snps-scottish-independence-supreme-court-case-doomed-fail%2F

    250. James che says:

      Wull.
      Breeks.

      To conclude.
      At the point that both the Scottish parliament and the English parliament ceased to Exist and closed their respective doors so did the promise they made to each other to create a new parliament.

      However if both parliament continued for ( any period of time at all ) after the newly created Great British parliament came into being this broke the agreed terms and articles of the treaty before it had begun,

      Did the English parliament enter into the British parliament,
      IS there a specific date and time to be found in historical records of when the Scottish parliament and the monarchy requested that the English parliament close its doors and cease to Exist?
      We find historical records with the precise time and the precise date that Scotland’s parliament closed its doors according to monarchy and the English parliament records,

      However the English parliament records do not give the same precise date as Scotlands.
      Thus we find the old English parliament setting up the new creation of the Great British in a continuence of itself,

      But not the Scottish parliamentry members,
      They enter only as members after the the new Great British parliament has been Created. And their own parliament has been closed at the request of Englands parliament.

      At the very conception of the Great British parliament we witness the English parliament members continuing,
      But what has been missed by many historian,
      Is that when the Scottish parliament closed its doors prior to the newly created Great British parliament and prior the the English parliament dates, all bets were of. The treaty could not be legally complied with, with no sitting Scottish parliament.

      A promise made by a Scottish parliament while in existence is valid,
      But a promise made by a parliament that has ceased to exist ( before )the new to be, created Great British can exist,

      Is like a dead man promising he will meet you tomorrow,

    251. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd 1.43:

      “So, if there ever is a King Robert, James or David then the higher regnal number of Scotland would apply. Except, I have been quietly confident, with every naming of a new prince, that none of those names would ever be used. Even when there was a prince known as David in Royal circles, on succeeding to the throne, he chose the regnal name of Edward and in his short reign was styled Edward VIII. On succeeding, the monarch can choose their regnal name. (There was even idle speculation among folk who care about such things that Charles on accession might choose a different regnal name – such as George – because of certain unhappy associations with the fate of a previous King Charles.)

      Anyone like to hazard a guess that the formula was drawn up with that assumption confidently in mind?”

      That’s a “conspiracy theory” which I find very persuasive. But then, I’m probably just
      a pork-brained moon howler.

      Was the David who changed his name the Nazi sympathiser whom Churchill had to fire off to the Bahamas to keep out of trouble?

      Another angle to the Edward thing of course is that it does tend to remind rebellious Scots of that vindictive psychopath, Edward I.

    252. StuartM says:

      @John Main

      I’m not sure why your screed about New Scots was directed at me, but being born and bred in Scotland I am not one of them.

      I presume you are referring to the debate about whether incomers should be allowed to vote in an Independence referendum. My view is that only those who will be continuing to live in Scotland permanently after the vote should be voting.

      Most countries only allow citizens to vote in national elections and constitutional referendums and to become a citizen you usually have to spend a minimum period of several years as a resident. This is perfectly reasonable, only those with a commitment to the country should hold citizenship and determine its future, not those who regard it as a flag of convenience or a temporary residence. Sojourners who’ve come from elsewhere in the UK for a 2-3 year job stint and intend returning to their origins have no business making a decision for those who are staying. OTOH an incomer who is permanently settled in Scotland should have a say in that decision.

      Applying this principle to the Independence Referendum I propose that eligibility for voting be limited to UK citizens who can demonstrate continuous residence in Scotland for the previous 5 years. Not perfect but you have to draw the line somewhere.

    253. Ruby says:

      If we are one country then there is no Union.

      What they are saying about the UK being just one country is pretty similar to what Crawford & Boyle said about Scotland in 2014.

      This time the message is that Scotland, England, Wales & N.Ireland ceased to exist in 1707 and became the UK.

      Surely Ruth Davidson and Arlene Foster are touring the country trying to drum up flagging support for the Tory Government & this one not so great country.

      https://archive.ph/eZFHK

      Liz Truss says the UK is ‘not four separate nations… but one great country’

    254. the friendly sassenach says:

      Dear Scots – Frosts diatribe repays the closest study. It proves what I have said for a while – it is nothing to do with Westminster wanting to steal Scotland’s resources, oil, water or whatever. It is to do with the fact that if you get your independence – crash bang goes the all shitty pretensions which have dominated politics south of the border.
      If you go, England appears clearly – as it really is – a meddling sort of country without too many pretentions to grandeur. That would be a much better England, one where we could maybe progress – and that is why I’m a committed support of Scottish independence.
      But Frost has farted out the truths – because of the above they wont give it to you on a plate for that reason. Scotland needs to be in a position where the vast majority believe they can do a better job than the English Tories can. Not very difficult you might think.

    255. Chas says:

      First visit to the site for a week or so.

      As usual, I start reading the comments from the latest article by Stu, starting from ‘the bottom up’. Did not have to go too far before the boring ‘history’ posts from the founder members of the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade. Do they not realise that the past is well………… past. You can’t change it! Why can’t they look to the future which can be shaped for the benefit of ALL the populace. Admittedly not with Sturgeon at the helm.

      One of the founder members of the BPHB slates Sturgeon in nearly every one of the multitude of his daily posts yet keeps providing links to the comic that wholeheartedly supports her and her Party!

      With all the concern, correctly so, of the impending disaster in increasing energy costs, is the penny finally dropping that MONEY will be the main factor in convincing Scots that Independence may be a more attractive proposition? As other similarly enlightened posters have pointed out. What are the financial and economic titans within the SNP doing in this respect? What are Alba promoting? There is a another huge window of opportunity looming. Will it be wasted again?

      One other cause of real concern for Scotland-WATER. Watch this space.

    256. Rab Davis says:

      Republic of Scotland 2.48pm

      That made me laugh,,,, Davidson and Foster doing the double act to save the Union.

      They could appear at the Kings theatre in Glasgow as the new Fran n Anna

      Will they still be wearing their Sash and Ermine?

      Will it be a Question and Answer show?
      Because they have a lot to answer for.

      Sturgeon, Foster and Davidson are all yesterday’s women.

      Scotland must move on from stain these three women have left on Scottish life.

    257. Dan says:

      @ Ruby at 4.33pm

      Looks like a potential future square go Celebrity Deathmatch between Truss and Davidson then.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-simple-ruth/

    258. Mark Boyle says:

      DavidRitchie says:
      21 August, 2022 at 12:20 pm

      Someone should have asked Paisley Liz whats the name of the local fiba team

      For most of the locals it’s Rangers and for the local MP it’s Partick Thistle.

      Republicofscotland says:
      21 August, 2022 at 2:48 pm

      “BARONESS Ruth Davidson and Arlene Foster are reportedly planning a “whistle-stop tour” of the UK to LAMBEG DRUM up flagging support for the Union in a move branded “desperate”.

      Fixed that for you! 😀

    259. Dan says:

      Ach well, one wee motorbike ride around my locality chatting to folks and that’ll be another 4 EU citizens fucking off back to the Netherlands and Germany seeing as the UK is shit and the political “leadership” of Scotland lacks the baws / fanny to improve or protect oor situation.

      Ain’t it jist fucking braw having a First Minister whose more bothered about protecting her red shoes than her red lines…

    260. Ruby says:

      If the UK is one country then are we not cheating by entering different teams into the various international sports contests & football matches?

      Does France get to enter a team from the Cote d’Azur, Brittany, Normandy & Alsace?

      One country not a Union of four countries say Lis Truss.

      What then does the Unionist mean in ‘The Conservative & Unionist Party’ and the ‘Democratic Unionist Party’

      The word Unionist in meaningless.

    261. Dan says:

      Oh, make that 6 EU nationals leaving, I forgot about the Spanish couple…
      I’ll no doubt update soon on who buys their houses…

    262. Ruby says:

      Dan says:
      21 August, 2022 at 4:50 pm

      @ Ruby at 4.33pm

      Looks like a potential future square go Celebrity Deathmatch between Truss and Davidson then.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-simple-ruth/

      Don’t get too excited about seeing a cat fight or witnessing any of Colonel Sausage’s alleged kick boxing skills. Ruth & Arlene change their minds as soon as their are goodies on offer.

    263. Dan says:

      Hey Ruby, seeing as it appears you’re not too bust getting yersel dolled up for a date on the 15th of Sep ootside Holyrood with oor Andy… Maybe you could let me know what on earth is going on doon Leith way.
      I had the unfortunate experience of driving through oor capital city on Friday and couldn’t help but notice the third world country style roads and new development getting built on the shore side of Seafield Road near Daltons For Scrap.
      I don’t think there was a single chemical reaction of photosynthesis in the area! Who the hell would want to live in that no doubt hugely overpriced type of environment.

    264. Republicofscotland says:

      Boyle @4.52pm.

      I see somebody’s been reading the comments sections.

    265. Fiona Brown says:

      What way is up, who am I, what am I, where am I, who is me & other existential ?’s for unionists! LoL

    266. Republicofscotland says:

      Six more White Papers (On top of these two) to come from the Scottish Government on why we need to exit this God awful union.

      “THE Scottish Government has plans for a handful of new papers making the case for independence, a minister has confirmed.

      Ivan McKee, the business minister, has said there would be “five or six” new papers in the coming months.

      Prospectuses are being drawn up by the Government’s constitutional futures division – a team it’s understood that consists of 22 civil servants – who have been tasked with outlining the case for Scotland becoming an independent country.

      “The first two have already been published. One makes the argument that Scotland is being held back by being in the Union, using examples of similarly sized countries around the world that outperform the UK on a variety of measures.”

      The second, renewing democracy through independence, made the case for exiting the Union on the basis that Westminster “is eroding and constraining Scotland’s democracy” and argued that devolution was insufficient to tackle this challenge.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20680382.scottish-independence-papers-way-ivan-mckee-confirms%2F

    267. Ruby says:

      Dan says:
      21 August, 2022 at 5:30 pm

      Hey Ruby, seeing as it appears you’re not too bust getting yersel dolled up for a date on the 15th of Sep ootside Holyrood with oor Andy… Maybe you could let me know what on earth is going on doon Leith way.

      Aye bless he’s probably quite a nice **** when you meet him in person. I’m amazed that he agreed to a date with me. I’m saying no ‘cos I’m thinking of Scott.

      I haven’t been doon Leith way in ages – you can probably guess why.

      The only thing I know about Leith is that the Rainbow Bridge is crumbling and the coocil want to demolish it. 🙁 Locals don’t want it demolished.

      Cllr Scott Arthur is on the case.

      That name rings a bell! Know anything about Cllr Scott Arthur and do you think he’ll be successful in saving The Rainbow Bridge.

      There are new developments all over the place no idea who is going to live in any of them what with loads of people leaving to live in a warmer climate where you don’t have to spend your life savings to keep warm and be forced to take out a loan to buy food. A 2nd mortgage if you want Lurpak.

      If I don’t go off to Spain on a three month all inclusive package holiday this October I will be in Leith a lot more. Leith Victoria have a steam room & a sauna.

      Leith Victoria is the local Edin Leisure swimming pool/gym. They even have baths (bath tubs).
      All included in your Edin Leisure membership.

      Having my bubble bath in Leith is on my list of ways to save electricity.

      The Commi Pool has none of that. They had a bad experience with saunas.

    268. Republicofscotland says:

      This is what happens when you allow a foreign country to make trade deals for another country.

      “THE UK’s new trade deal with New Zealand will be “damaging to Scottish farmers, Holyrood ministers warn.

      The deal – which is set to allow a jump in tariff-free imports of food products – will result in a “lack of a level playing field” between Scottish and New Zealand farmers, according to Rural Affairs Minister Mairi Gougeon and Trade Minister Ivan McKee.

      The Scottish Government ministers have written a letter to Penny Mordaunt, the UK Trade Minister, to outline the deal’s “stark contrast” with the EU’s free trade agreement (FTA) with New Zealand – which they say provides the same market access while offering domestic farmers more robust safeguards from foreign competition.”

      Of course SNP minister’s are bitchin about it, and the damage it will do to Scottish farmers, but the one thing that could’ve helped our Scottish beef industry, and much more, dissolving the union, wasn’t on the cards for Sturgeon and her party and now our industries will suffer further on top of Brexit.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20680376.new-zealand-trade-deal-will-damage-scottish-farmers-holyrood-ministers-warn%2F

    269. Dan says:

      @ RoS

      Does Ivan McKee understand that trying to sell the principle of “renewing democracy” to the masses of Scotland whilst he’s still a member of the SNP Party which has effectively removed democracy and policy development from its Party members under Sturgeon doesn’t bode well.
      Aye, we’ll jist vote SNP on the premise of returning Scotland to self-governing status, only for that aspect to be ignored and instead we’ll get forced to conform to Hate Crime Act and genderwoowoo that the electorate don’t agree with or consent to.

      FFS, a fistfull of extortionately priced leccy bills would be more use as a campaigning tool than pissing dosh away on more white papers. Most folks’ white papers are already brown stained from shiting themselves from what’s coming this winter with cost of living increases.

    270. Merganser says:

      When push comes to shove; more constipation;runaway trains

      Assuming the polls over the last few years are right that a majority of Scottish voters don’t want independence; and assuming that Nicola Sturgeon is perceived by a majority voters to be genuine in her desire to achieve independence, what happens when crunch time comes with a vote on the issue?

      At the moment the SNP’s ‘popularity’ seems based on the fact that they are the ‘least worst’ option and are tolerated by no voters – as long as the voters don’t have to make a decision on independence.

      So when push comes to shove, where do the votes go when ‘independence, yes or no’ stares you in the face in the voting booth?

      If you’re against independence, you’re not going to vote SNP, Alba or Green. So where do you look for an alternative?

      The Labour Party burned their boats a while back for many but could become the ‘least worst option’ for some ‘no’ voters. The Conservative Party are unlikely to be seen as an attractive option to go to in view of their behaviour recently and the dislike of Truss and Sunak.

      The Liberal Democrat Party could well benefit from the ‘there’s nothing left’ contingent who are sufficiently motivated to turn out.

      Which leaves the ‘all politicians are bent/just in it to feather their own nest/my vote won’t make a difference anyway/I’m just not interested’ group. Which could be quite large and could have a substantial impact on an election where it’s the number of votes that count.

      Given the catastrophic effect on independence if it all went horribly wrong, never mind the ‘legitimacy’ arguments even if it succeeded, does anyone really think she will stick around to see the result of how she has tee’d this up?

      The SNP could leak votes to all and sundry. Not enough to prevent them being the majority party, but enough to result in the wrong answer to Nicola’s question. So constipation will return to the political scene in Scotland and round again we go

      This runaway train is now on its journey. Where will Nicola be when the train hits the buffers? Anywhere except on the footplate.

    271. Dan says:

      @ Ruby

      Being a Stockbridge bairn I was a Glenogle Rd Baths regular, I don’t want to give my age away but this was back when that pink soap and no bombing or heavy petting signs, and male and female changing cubicles were a thing.
      I went to the Commonwealth Baths once but almost inhaled a errant jobbie whilst warming myself up in the bairns’ pools so never went back there.

    272. Republicofscotland says:

      Dan the SNP is incapable of democracy under the leadership of Sturgeon and Murrell. Have a wee look at what’s gone on within the SNP and you’ll see what I mean.

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/08/21/how-to-take-over-a-party/

      The likes of McKee, like his boss and other SNP minister’s are so accustomed to finger pointing and doing nothing that its second nature to them now. Brexit was massive opportunity to ditch the union, but Sturgeon decided to try and save England from itself, rather than save Scotland from this union, and its all been downhill since.

    273. Dan says:

      @ RoS

      Aye, and almost 18 months earlier…

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/how-to-make-a-coup/

    274. Republicofscotland says:

      Dan @7.07pm.

      Yes indeed Dan.

    275. Doug says:

      As far as I know the latest census figures have not been made public to show just how many people from England have recently moved to Scotland. I don’t know if the census even takes into account the number of people from England who have not permanently moved to Scotland but have purchased a second home here, and whether this makes them entitled to vote in an election or referendum.

      Someone on here will know the facts I’m sure.

      In my opinion the majority of English “new Scots” will be, for a variety of reasons, unionists and will unhesitatingly vote as such. Only a fraction of these “new Scots” will, in my opinion, make the effort to learn about Scotland’s past, the current political situation and the reasons why many Scots wish to end the union.

      I can only see an increase in these “new Scots” and an increase in the anglicization of Scotland. We are running out of time. Scotland then really will be just another part of England.

      Sturgeon, Blackford, Wishart et al are averse to taking action to bolster the argument for independence perhaps because they know for Scotland to achieve its independence it will have to break Westminster law in order to do so. Sturgeon keeps reiterating her desire for independence to be achieved through constitutional and legal means. Whose constitution and whose laws?

      It seems to me the only time the SNP takes action is when they spring to the defence of the likes of the British nationalist BBC.

      All very dispiriting. It’s understandable that more and more people in Scotland are questioning the SNP’s lack of fight and its leader’s obsession with issues which have nothing to do with independence.

      And don’t call me Private Fraser.

    276. John Main says:

      Dan

      So you know 6 EU citizens who are fucking off back where they came from?

      Sounds, to me, that they came to Scotland thinking things would be better than where they came from. Now they have discovered that it isn’t, off they go to where things actually will be better, their places of birth.

      Nice to see my views confirmed: immigrants come here for what they can get.

      That reinforces my view on how immigrants will vote in any future referendum. Show them how Yes will benefit them, and they will vote Yes.

      Becoming moot now though, with the polls shifting into Yes territory anyways. Nice to see another of my views confirmed: convince ethnic Scots to vote Yes and how the rest vote doesn’t matter.

    277. John Main says:

      Andy Ellis

      Your assertion that most Scots want to be in the EU is stretching credulity to the utmost.

      All that we can say with confidence is that most Scots want the UK to be in the EU.

      But that ship has sailed. As for iScotland being in the EU, no rational Scot could be gong ho for that, simply because the T’s & C’s governing Scotland’s membership are completely unknown.

      We do know, of course, that we would have to join the Euro. We do know, of course, that as one of the wealthier members, we would have to subsidise the poorer ones.

      It astonishes me that so many in the movement, after 300+ years of our wealth being drained to London, are keen to see our wealth drained to Brussels.

      As for my “false equivalence” that countries in the EU are not really independent, I can prove it is a real equivalence in one word: Greece.

    278. Tinto Chiel says:

      John Main: “Convince ethnic Scots to vote Yes and how the rest vote doesn’t matter.”

      All very well, John, but this website was founded on the premise that the MSM was irrevocably opposed to Scottish independence and so alternative media were necessary. We came close in 2014 with a combination of Salmond’s political nous, the great power online of Wings, and Stu’s WBB.

      How do we get out the follow-the-money case you advocate (Scotland awash with all that NRG Europe craves: oil, gas, renewables) when there is no newspaper based in Scotland to even begin to enunciate this case. All MSM titles are essentially owned by ex-patriate non-tax paying “entities” totally opposed to anything which upsets the outrageous expropriation of Scotland’s immense assets.

      Add to that a possible voting franchise in a future referendum which would permit (even on Tory Lord Ashcroft’s measure) at least 400,000 foreign voters (probably significantly larger now, given post-Covid fright-flight from England), 70% of whom he calculated voted NO in 2014, and I would think that a vote for Yes would be very difficult to achieve.

      What’s to be done, John?

    279. Dan says:

      @ John Main at 8.47pm

      That’s just 6 in last couple of weeks. I know of many more from my years of activism and engaging with the wider electorate that are no longer here since yer full fat “Brexit”.
      You were wrong when you recently suggest it was my beloved EU. If you were alert, you’d ken I’ve had plenty reasonable discussion with the likes of J.o.e. that I had reservations about the EU, and that was long before all the recent war shit kicked off.
      Retaining regulatory alignment and single market access with oor nearest trading block for oor businesses makes a bit of sense for various reasons, ya ken, rather than importing lamb from NZ when we are in an energy “crisis” and also meant to be so concerned with reducing carbon emissions…

      But folk with the ability to up sticks and return to their homeland is why the franchise question warrants discussion. Folk with effective dual nationality and an escape route out of Fantasy Island when shit goes bad possibly aren’t so concerned about the serious matter of Scotland’s long term constitutional status.

    280. Saffron Robe says:

      I agree with your comment at 8:15pm Doug, but just wanted to say there is no such thing as Westminster law. There is English law and there is Scots law, and English law has no jurisdiction (legality) in Scotland. What Sturgeon means is that she is not willing to break English law to set Scotland free, which is as good as saying she wants to keep us tied to the Union forever.

    281. JGedd says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 3.21pm

      Was the David who changed his name the Nazi sympathiser whom Churchill had to fire off to the Bahamas to keep out of trouble?

      The very one TC. Mind you the regnal name he chose was actually his baptismal name – well one of them. He had a whole string of baptismal names to choose from and the last four were actually the patron saints of the four countries of the British isles. He was always known to the family as David which for some reason (?) was not considered suitable for a king.

      (I’m going to take up your recommendation and seek out Murray Pittock. Sounds like an interesting read.)

    282. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tinto Chiel 9.15 pm

      So you’ve already convinced yourself that we can’t add 6% to the 2014 total, when we added >15% in the 2 years between 2012-14, despite the MSM being uniformly hostile, Project Fear and the assumption that voting Yes meant being outside the EU?

      Nativists don’t know how many New Scots there are, but they’ve already convinced themselves the cause is lost. They’re getting their excuses in early for not being able to construct a case that delivers a pro indy majority from the 80% or so who are native born and the 20% who aren’t.

      How can you or anyone else be sure that 70% of New Scots would vote No “if” there’s another referendum?

      How about if it’s not a referendum but plebiscitary elections?

      Won’t EU nationals be more likely to vote Yes this time?

      How about “soft No” voters horrified by the prospect of Truss or Sunak as PM as the polling today suggests?

      And of course, that old favourite…how about increasing turnout? The Quebec referendum in 1995 had a turnout of 92.5% compared to the (admittedly impressive) 2014 turnout in Scotland of 85%.

      If we can’t get 50% + 1 given the upcoming shitemare, we might as well just hope our kids and grandkids grow some political balls rather than sit whingeing about how we wus robbed by furriners.

    283. Tinto Chiel says:

      @JGedd: I have heard Prof. Pittock may be working on something about the occupation of Scotland post-Culloden but any of his works on the Jacobites are very valuable, even table-cowping. Unfortunately, some of them are rather expensive now with the passage of the years (and other factors).

      Good to see you posting again. This site could do with a bit more intellectual rigour btl.

      Miss your musical musings on O/T too but I hope things pick up soon. If Grousebeater is right there may well be an independence groundswell we are not generally aware of yet.

      Here’s to a tsunami.

    284. President Xiden says:

      SNP = Socialist Nonce Party.

    285. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 9.00 pm

      Your assertion that most Scots want to be in the EU is stretching credulity to the utmost.

      Happy to be proven wrong. I don’t see the supermajority of Scots who supported staying in the EU at the brexit vote having changed. Indeed, I’d say it’s more likely to have grown than decreased.

      But that ship has sailed. As for iScotland being in the EU, no rational Scot could be gong ho for that, simply because the T’s & C’s governing Scotland’s membership are completely unknown.

      Sounds like more assertion and wish fulfilment on your part, and very much against the grain. The EU has no reason to do anything other than make Scottish accession the easiest it’s ever been for any candidate member, particularly post Vlad’s War.

      We do know, of course, that we would have to join the Euro. We do know, of course, that as one of the wealthier members, we would have to subsidise the poorer ones.

      *Sigh* No, we don’t know it, because it isn’t true. There’s no compulsion in Euro membership. It’s easily avoided as Sweden demonstrates. Any country that doesn’t want to join simply fails to meet ERM criteria for all time to come. Sorted. As for being a net contributor: them’s the breaks. I’d still take that than being part of the UK.

      It astonishes me that so many in the movement, after 300+ years of our wealth being drained to London, are keen to see our wealth drained to Brussels.

      As for my “false equivalence” that countries in the EU are not really independent, I can prove it is a real equivalence in one word: Greece.

      No, you can’t prove anything. It’s just more assertion because you’re ideologically opposed to the EU. The charge of false equivalency stands. The vast majority of folk in the EU member states would find your assertion they aren’t really independent risible. If the majority of Greeks thought there was a realistic alternative they’d have ensured Grexit. They’re not mental like little Englanders tho’.

    286. Alf Baird says:

      Republicofscotland @ 6:28 pm

      “Ivan McKee, the business minister, has said there would be “five or six” new papers in the coming months.”

      Here’s a paper he might need to add, if he really wants to understand what independence means:

      https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/wp.towson.edu/dist/b/55/files/2022/05/The-Socio-Political-Determinants-of-Scottish-Independence.pdf

    287. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Andy: you’ve been through your script before many times but it gets weaker by repetition.

      For example: how do you get out your case with the MSM against you? The only counterbalance to that in 2014 was Salmond , Wings and the WBB and we didn’t make it. Now Sturgeon has poisoned the well, divided the movement, and employed Foote, author of The Vow, as an adviser.

      What EU nationals? As Dan said, most of them have buggered off because Sturgeon pooped her pants with Brexit and ran around in her wee yella bus trying to stop the English from achieving what they voted for.

      New Scots? What does this mean? Temporary economic migrants, foreign students or English immigrants cashing in on the SE housing bubble? Someone born here or having built up a reasonable term of residence and paying taxes here would be a reasonable definition of “Scot” but a happy-clappy “Let anyone in Scotland” vote is self-defeating nonsense. We already have a shrewd idea from Ashcroft where the majority of English votes in Scotland would be going.

      Would you as a Scot be allowed to vote in France in a national election or referendum. How about Naw. And don’t try your usual “But you’re not independent so can’t restrict the franchise in this manner” stuff. It’s blatantly unacceptable and most EU countries have similar restrictions. Christ, you can’t even buy a hectare in Denmark unless you are a Dane, let alone vote.

      God, we’re still talking about Soft Noes? They must be rarer now after the polarising last six years than the Loch Ness monster or Bigfoot, and having been to western Canada frankly the latter seems much more likely.

      Throw about your habitual insults like “nativists” (and moon howlers, pork-for-brains und so weiter) as long as you like in the absence of a coherent argument but if we re-run a referendum under similar lines and media circumstances led by a half-hearted leader with the charisma of a limp lettuce and then the result is pre-ordained.

    288. twathater says:

      Now TC you are NOT allowed to be rational and point out that doing the same thing over and over probably leads to the same result .

      So okay you have pointed out the insults but Andy can go one better he will now drag out the REV says quotes again where he maintains the dissenters have had a bloody good fisking whatever that means and the REV’s opinion is gospel so no one is allowed to dispute the gospel
      It is a waste of time arguing with Andy because he is always right doncha know and even if the franchise was changed he would ACTIVELY work AGAINST independence such is his desperation for independence
      His deflection is always a plebicite election which as you know we btl have discussed and proposed for years but sturgeon the betrayer has refused to accept , for someone who returned to Scotland after the 2014 ref after living in Surrey for 25 years Andy knows how us stupid indigenous moonhowlers have been going wrong and he is determined to show us

    289. Rab Davis says:

      Watch out all you women golfers out there,,,the men are on your case.

      And if you complain you’ll be labelled a Transphobe.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11129215/amp/Golfer-set-transgender-woman-win-coveted-Ladies-PGA-Tour-Card.html

    290. Breeks says:

      Alf Baird says:
      21 August, 2022 at 10:35 pm
      Republicofscotland @ 6:28 pm

      “Ivan McKee, the business minister, has said there would be “five or six” new papers in the coming months.”

      Here’s a paper he might need to add, if he really wants to understand what independence means:

      5 “or” 6? Doesn’t he know? Or is there a fear might one or two of them might be unfit to publish? Given the increasingly common perception that the SNP has been asleep at the wheel these past eight years, after these first two amateurish and somewhat pointless “papers”, this process has all the hallmarks of a slow motion car crash.

      At some point, soon, we must reach the point where there is a consensus that it is now ALBA and SALVO who are carrying the baton for Independence. They’ve done more in a few short months to change the whole dynamics of Independence and establishing some momentum than the SNP has managed since 2015, while we’ve all had to watch in horror as the SNP squandered one golden opportunity after another.

      If the 2023 Referendum is the damp squib we always knew it would be, then it’s game on for the Plebiscite General Election, where we need a binary mandate under a single YES party standing for Independence. We NEED the parties coming together as one, common purpose agreed, and the YES Alliance agreed now. We cannot afford to waste yet more time on the selfish prima donas in the SNP hogging the limelight but steadfastly doing absolutely nothing.

      I have such an abiding fear the SNP remains on course to fuck this up, just like they’ve fucked up everything else they’ve touched under Sturgeon’s “leadership”.

    291. Ruby says:

      LPGA another load of misogynists.

      Transwoman are transwoman.

      Transwoman = male

      I am as opposed to transwoman as I am sexist misogynists pigs.

    292. Ruby says:

      Meanwhile back in Holyrood they want more women.

      https://archive.ph/NsGaQ

      However they haven’t said what they mean by women.

      Lets assume they mean ‘adult human females’

      Why would they need more ‘adult human females’?

      Would transwomen/transmen adult human males not be just as good?

      Is there any job that needs to be done by an ‘adult human female’?

      Patrick Harvie might want to have a word with Alison Johnstone re her transphobic/sexist views.

      Anything wrong with an adult human male or even a transwoman becoming Mr. Period, Mr Menopause, Mr Rape Crisis Centre, Mr Woman of the Year or Mr Ladies Golf Champion?

    293. Mark Boyle says:

      twathater says:
      22 August, 2022 at 2:22 am

      for someone who returned to Scotland after the 2014 ref after living in Surrey for 25 years Andy knows how us stupid indigenous moonhowlers have been going wrong and he is determined to show us

      For someone posting on a website owned by someone that has lived in Bath these last 31 years, to use Andy’s former place of abode after 25 years as some sort of denigration takes a particular lack of – at the least – irony, but moreover basic common sense.

      Congratulations champ, you’ve levelled up from moonhowler to puddledrinker.

    294. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tinto Chiel 11.05 pm

      You may think the script gets less convincing by repetition, but I’m interested in evidence, not your gut feelings or subjective hearsay like the fact Dan knows some EU folk that have left. I know quite a few EU folk that have arrived since 2014….so what?

      We start any new campaign, whether for an indyref or plebiscitary elections at around 50% (possibly even more given recent polling), rather than the high 20’s % we started with in 2012. It simply isn’t plausible to say that we can’t achieve the necessary additional % points required, when the situation with the MSM isn’t really any different. Yes, some things may have changed for the worse if we don’t have Wings Over Scotland and a more coherent, positive movement than in 2012-14, but some things have also changed for the worse for the britnats, particularly brexit and the character and performance of Tory governments since 2014.

      As for EU nationals: show me evidence, not hearsay. Yes, of course many will have left post brexit, but how many still remain? How do we think those who remain would vote now in comparison with before?

      The same goes for the argument about New Scots: it’s been well rehearsed. you and other nativists are wrong, both morally and politically. You don’t represent the movement as a whole, and you don’t have the support of ANY of the pro indy parties, yet you still keep banging away with the regressive, blood and soil, xenophobic platform that would do far more harm than good, and is profoundly out of step with international custom and practice for self determination votes.

      You return – as so many nativists do – to the false equivalence of what already independent countries allow for national elections or constitutional votes. You know fine well this is a false equivalence, because it’s been pointed out often enough, yet like a dog eating its own vomit, you just can’t resist it. Most other countries DON’T do what you say, they do the opposite. Are you just flat out lying, or just ignorant of a debate that has been raging on here for over a year since Rev Stu’s first magisterial fisking of the nativist pish?

      EU and other countries have restrictions based on citizenship. Scotland will have them too AFTER it is independent. BEFORE independence, it doesn’t have citizens, it has residents. The precedent for self determination votes in non-colonial situations is to a franchise based on residence, NOT ethnicity, blood or potential future citizenship. No matter how often you try to mislead folk, those facts won’t change.

      Denmark does indeed stop non-nationals buying land and property, but Sweden and Norway have no restrictions at all. An independent Scotland can restricts who buys land and property. First, Scots have to have the balls to vote for independence.

      As for your assertion whether “soft No’s” no longer exist, prove it. We’ll wait…..

      As for your antipathy to being correctly classified as a nativist, dry your eyes and stop clutching your pearls. Worse things happen at sea. This place in particular is an odd place to complain about what are objectively pretty mild descriptions given Rev Stu’s colourful turn of expression. I’m not on here regularly cunt-calling you or other nativists, nor do I call those espousing nativism agents of the enemy, but I saw few if any nativists calling that behaviour when it was doled out by their own side.

      If you’ve already decided we’ll lose if we don’t change the franchise, then defeat is indeed a self fulfilling prophecy.

    295. stuart mctavish says:

      Setting aside the cruelty of separating the verdict from the sentence for any victim of the prosecution service (far less one with a media profile who can expect to be further abused in the interim if it suits the prevailing agenda) as though a public order prosecution was as trivial as a private arbitration to separate the conflation of cause and compensation under contract, does anyone know if the Margaret Ferrier trial was heard by a jury?

      If so, what power does a jury have to overturn a plea that is clearly insane or some form of Faustian bargain made under duress – and why did it appear not to have been informed of such power in advance

      If not, what punishment* is reserved for judges willing to accept pleas of guilt that cannot be corroborated

      *eg private sector equivalent of undermining the fundamental principles of your profession/ client’s corrupt activity might be immediate dismissal and blacklisting (or worse) but civil asset forfeiture may yet be the more appropriate tool to guard against similar forms of self harm in the public sector

    296. Christopher Pike says:

      Saffron Robe says:
      21 August, 2022 at 9:36 pm
      I agree with your comment at 8:15pm Doug, but just wanted to say there is no such thing as Westminster law. There is English law and there is Scots law, and English law has no jurisdiction (legality) in Scotland. What Sturgeon means is that she is not willing to break English law to set Scotland free, which is as good as saying she wants to keep us tied to the Union forever.

      ——————-

      Overarching these systems is the law of the United Kingdom, also known as United Kingdom law (often abbreviated UK law). UK law arises from laws applying to the United Kingdom and/or its citizens as a whole, most obviously constitutional law, but also other areas – for instance, tax law.

    297. Andy Ellis says:

      @twatbynametwatbynature 2.22 am

      So okay you have pointed out the insults but Andy can go one better he will now drag out the REV says quotes again where he maintains the dissenters have had a bloody good fisking whatever that means and the REV’s opinion is gospel so no one is allowed to dispute the gospel

      I refer you to my comments to Tinto above: dry yer eyes ya wee bairn. The reason I often refer to Rev Stu’s words is a) it triggers the moonhowlers no end to be reminded that the Rev thinks they are all on the other side from him on this issue, and b) not a single one of you has ever effectively engaged with let alone answered his original demolition of what passes for your case over a year ago. If you don’t know what “fisking” means, go and educate yourself.

      Once again – and reiterating what Stu said then – nobody is saying our views are gospel, still less that you’re not allowed to dispute it, or profoundly believe your own woo-woo. That doesn’t make it any more true or any less regressive politically or any less damaging to the movement.

      It is a waste of time arguing with Andy because he is always right doncha know and even if the franchise was changed he would ACTIVELY work AGAINST independence such is his desperation for independence

      More deflection on your part because you lack the intellectual capacity to engage honestly. Of course I think I’m right. I’ve never said, nor do I think, that I’m never wrong. That’s just a charge the intellectually dishonest and inadequate throw around to try and stifle debate, or to avoid having to provide evidence. I would definitely campaign against proposals to change the franchise. I’d hardly be alone in that. That’s not the kind of progressive, civic nationalism I want an independent Scotland to be based on. If you can’t convince folk like me to support the campaign, your’ve got fuck all chance of convincing enough former No voters to switch sides. Well done, genius.

      His deflection is always a plebicite election which as you know we btl have discussed and proposed for years but sturgeon the betrayer has refused to accept , for someone who returned to Scotland after the 2014 ref after living in Surrey for 25 years Andy knows how us stupid indigenous moonhowlers have been going wrong and he is determined to show us

      I’m not deflecting from anything. Plebiscitary elections as an alternative to a “frustrated” indyref have been discussed for the past few years. I’ve never lived in Surrey, but can’t see why the fact I’ve lived in England half my life and Scotland the other half makes my analysis less cogent than that of some of the nativist moonhowlers regurgitating their xenophobia and bigotry in here.

      As we all know Rev Stu has the temerity to live in Bath. Sounds to me that you and others criticising me for having had the temerity to live in England are sounding an awful lot like the yoons using the same othering techniques against folk like Stu and me during indyref1.

      Strange bedfellows indeed, but there again I suppose crows spouting regressive, xenophobic bullshit will aye flock the gither eh?

    298. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Andy Ellis: you have made these points many times in your own colourful way (although I don’t know how you can make your assertions about what the majority of Scots feel on the various matters you talk about without extensive and expensive polling to provide you with the necessary evidence) and they have been argued about by many posters btl for a considerable time now, but you have really nothing to worry about. There is no way this FM would do anything as radical as to restrict a referendum franchise to native Scots and others who would qualify by some period of residency (something The Rev. has said he is open to discussing, incidentally).

      We can see by her meekly submitting the issue of referendum competence to the Supreme Court (whose very existence surely breaches the Act of Union by seeking to qualify Scots Law) that the towel has probably already been thrown in. Further, if she intends a later plebiscite “referendum” run on GE rules of excluding 16/17 year olds and EU nationals or some other dirty-work-at-the crossroads measure , this would almost certainly exclude many voters who would be Yessers, further undermining our chance of success. And of course, even with a massive landslide of 57 seats in 2015 the SNP share of the vote did not reach 50%.

      If I remember correctly, Alex Salmond did say around the time of the Edinburgh Agreement that the franchise was a difficult subject. He may well have accepted it warts and all to fulfil his promise to the electorate of a vote and not scare the horses too much, hoping to make a respectable showing which could be built on by normalising the idea of independence through his energy, commitment and political skills. Unfortunately, he resigned and placed our future in the hands of his Plan B, as he called her, and we all know the rest.

      Furthermore, our host’s reasoned recent post which shows a referendum is extremely unlikely in the short to medium term was pretty convincing. We seem to be in a bind and no mistake. Nothing will improve until there is a change at the top but the supine nature of the SNP in both parliaments means that changing a leader is unlikely to improve things automatically.

      @Twathater 2.22: you may be on to something.

      *Strokes chin*

      Maybe in the long run the Daisy Walker Gambit is the correct course 😉 .

    299. Colin the Keelie says:

      The Referendums (Scotland) Act 2020 has already set what the franchise would be for any future referendums in Scotland.

      (a)aged 16 or over,
      (b)registered in the register of local government electors maintained under section 9(1)(b) of the Representation of the People Act 1983 for any area in Scotland,
      (c)not subject to any legal incapacity to vote (age apart) (see section 5), and
      (d)a Commonwealth citizen, a citizen of the Republic of Ireland or a relevant citizen of the European Union.

      So, it’s a waste of time discussing what the franchise should be. But, if that’s what you want to do, feel free.

    300. John Main says:

      @Tinto Chiel says:21 August, 2022 at 9:15 pm

      “What’s to be done, John?”

      Demonstrate convincingly to the voters in Scotland how they will be personally better off post-Indy.

      Personally, in-their-pockets. Folding moolah left over at the end of the week. Every week.

      If that needs new faces, because all of the old ones are tainted by a history of mealy-mouthed platitudes, or downright lies, then so be it. New political movements are popping up from nowhere in Europe, we can do it here.

      As for a hostile MSM, so what? This is the age of social media. Again, new political movements overseas are harnessing social media and bypassing the MSM, so why can’t we?

    301. John Main says:

      @ Andy Ellis says:21 August, 2022 at 10:17 pm

      “I don’t see the supermajority of Scots who supported staying in the EU at the brexit vote having changed. Indeed, I’d say it’s more likely to have grown than decreased.”

      Really? If 62% No to 38% Yes is a supermajority, then today is a school day for me. If that hasn’t changed, despite what we have seen since, particularly the EU’s piss-poor record on Covid vaccines, then the people of Scotland are arguably not paying attention. Finally, you have not addressed my point that joining the EU as iScotland will be on greatly disadvantageous terms compared to those we had previously. Attempting to sell EU membership on the claim that “it would be just like before” is lying.

      “The EU has no reason to do anything other than make Scottish accession the easiest it’s ever been for any candidate member, particularly post Vlad’s War.”

      Did you just make that up? But let’s play with the idea it’s true. I wonder why? Could it be they need resources, and hard cash from us? One of the points I was making, actually.

      “*Sigh* No, we don’t know it, because it isn’t true. There’s no compulsion in Euro membership. It’s easily avoided as Sweden demonstrates. Any country that doesn’t want to join simply fails to meet ERM criteria for all time to come. Sorted. As for being a net contributor: them’s the breaks. I’d still take that than being part of the UK.”

      Fine, I am pleased for you. And do you speak for the rest of us Scots? Do these “breaks” work for the rest of us? How can anybody say they do WHEN WE DON’T KNOW WHAT THE “BREAKS” WILL BE?

      “The vast majority of folk in the EU member states would find your assertion they aren’t really independent risible.”

      Again, really? So they don’t know the meaning of “independent”, and when they heard the repeated mantra of “ever closer union” they just stuck their fingers in their ears.

      As an interesting, current, case study, Hungary is approaching the point where it will soon transition from a net receiver of EU subsidies to a net exporter of its sovereign wealth to Brussels. And because Hungary is led by a party and a politician who actually prioritises Hungary, “Huxit” is being discussed.

      Will it happen? What the pro-EU zealots fail to grasp is just how much the political landscape of Europe and the EU has been changed by the war we can’t discuss on here.

    302. Alf Baird says:

      John Main @ 10:38 am

      “Demonstrate convincingly to the voters in Scotland how they will be personally better off post-Indy.”

      That’s not really how this works though, is it. People mostly vote on the basis of their ‘values’, not necessarily what is in their best interest. ‘Independence is a cultural emotion’ (Fanon), which points us in the direction of our ‘cultural values’ as primary determinant of how we vote, also influenced by our language, and therefore our national identity/national consciousness.

      Two things we need to remember are that: 1) peoples in self-determination conflict are always culturally/linguistically divided, and; 2) an independence movement always reflects the solidarity of an oppressed ethnic group.

      In any colonial environment we also have to be aware of the ‘colonial mindset’ condition and what this means for an oppressed people. Simply informing people suffering from such a condition that they might be a few quid better off therefore seems at best a very crude or rudimentary approach. Independence is about self-recovery of a doun-hauden people and their culture, language etc., for which the only cure is liberation.

      Most former colonised peoples that are now independent states rightly regard their independence/decolonisation and sovereignty as priceless and non-negotiable. A more critical objective is therefore the need for a people to better understand what independence means (i.e. decolonisation) and why it is essential (liberation from oppression), as I have sought to explain here with reference to extensive postcolonial and related theory:

      https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/wp.towson.edu/dist/b/55/files/2022/05/The-Socio-Political-Determinants-of-Scottish-Independence.pdf

    303. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tinto Chiel 10.29 am

      The issue isn’t going away. If it keeps being brought up, and nativists keep talking about it, doubtless those who disagree with them will respond. Why is that in the least problematic? I happen to agree with Stu that it’s not something we have to worry about over much, because there isn’t any realistic prospect of a referendum happening. However, confronting regressive nativist views seems important to me, and perhaps to some others, even if you and others disagree. Such is life.

      Nobody is forcing you or others to interact. You’re free to ignore me and others discussing the issue, just as I routinely ignore certain individuals here on the principle that you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Presumably you’re also free within the limits of Rev Stu’s patience to cunt call people every other post.

      The reason I think it’s important to challenge what I regard as deeply regressive and problematic narratives like franchise restriction and the “Scotland as colony” bullshit, is that I think it has a negative impact on the movement and sets a truly dreadful precedent and example for those we will need to convince to change sides. you and others are free to disagree.

      Of course I can’t prove my view that nativist views are very much in the minority. The only certain way of doing so is actually having a vote. Polling – properly carried out – is as you note expensive, and tends not to go in to the detail or ask the exact question you might want answered unless you’re paying for it yourself. All we can go on is what support the narratives have in the policy positions of parties, what interest groups are saying, what leadership figures in the movement are supporting. Who knows, maybe you’re right and you and other nativists are in the majority, but you’re no more able to definitively prove it than I am that you’re in the minority.

      A plebiscitary election at Holyrood would include 16 & 17 year olds and have a wider franchise than a Westminster GE. The SNP and Greens could do it in a matter of weeks by resigning. That’s not likely to happen either, but doubtless if it happened the nativists would be still be whingeing about the New Scots included in that vote too, and you’d have extremist nutters like “Scott” advocating that anyone not born here should be excluded. I’m as entitled to my opinion that such views are electoral poison and morally repugnant, as you are to your view that we can’t win except by moving the goalposts.

      Nobody’s forcing you to interact, and since you seem no more able to argue in good faith than some the abusive trolls and creepy as fuck stalkers who increasingly infect BTL here, maybe it’s better if you take the Daisy Walker option and ostentatiously ignore me? Brotherhood keeps doing it too, until he forgets.

    304. Tinto Chiel says:

      @John Main 10.38: “Demonstrate convincingly to the voters in Scotland how they will be personally better off post-Indy.

      Personally, in-their-pockets. Folding moolah left over at the end of the week. Every week.”

      I quite agree but that should be the job of the SNP every day of the political week. Perhaps this winter may finally give people pause to wonder how such an energy rich country can have so much fuel and absolute poverty but we’re hardly a torch-and-pitchfork people like the French. Maybe that’s a reason for their government having a real price cap of 4% while prices here go through the roof.

      I’m afraid I can’t really answer your question about social media. This very site was probably one of the most effective tools in the box but it’s in partial cold storage at the mo for understandable reasons.

    305. McDuff says:

      Andy Ellis
      I have a lot of English neighbours and in the run up to the ref in ’14 I carefully asked them how they would vote. Out of 8, 7 said they would vote no,which is what I roughly expected.
      English people are more “nativist” than Scots and there is no way they would vote for independence which would make them ” foreigners” in their own eyes and their first allegience will always be to England.
      Perhaps their children or grandchildren will be “new Scots” but those who have recently emigrated to Scotland are English who now live in Scotland not “new Scots”. IF there is another referendum their voting intentions will once again have a negative effect on the result. And I do find it odd that someone who supposedly supports Indy would encourage this No-voting group.

    306. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 11.08 pm

      Really? If 62% No to 38% Yes is a supermajority, then today is a school day for me.

      A supermajority is generally accepted as a % significantly over 50%: there’s no set number. Most frequently it’s taken as 2/3rds, but 62/38 is pretty overwhelming, even if you don’t consider it a supermajority. Leaving aside your hair splitting, I’d still wager it might be more than 62/38 if you asked the question today.

      Finally, you have not addressed my point that joining the EU as iScotland will be on greatly disadvantageous terms compared to those we had previously. Attempting to sell EU membership on the claim that “it would be just like before” is lying.

      I neither said nor believe that the terms would be the same, or that it would be easy or automatic. There’s a process, and it would have to be followed. there is however no “queue” as brexiteers and britnats like to claim. Whether Scots voters post independence find the terms on offer for full membership acceptable remains to be seen. They may prefer a Norwegian style relationship, or just EFTA membership.

      However, if the majority of Scots ARE still keen to join the EU, it’s vanishingly unlikely the EU are going to put obstacles in our way, particularly as you note because Scotland would likely be a net contributor. Scots voters are doubtless sophisticated enough to judge whether the terms on offer are attractive enough to encourage them to join on those terms, or do something else instead.

      Did you just make that up? But let’s play with the idea it’s true. I wonder why? Could it be they need resources, and hard cash from us? One of the points I was making, actually.

      No, it’s a reasonable inference from the previous relationship, from what figures within the EU have said, and the simple fact that most in Europe would be quite happy to stick it to the little Englanders in any way they can. And yes, I agree the fact Scotland would likely be a contributor will help. No huge surprise there.

      There is absolutely no reason for the EU – or NATO – to do anything other than make Scottish entry as easy and as rapid as possible within the constraints of their processes (c.f.: Swedish and Finnish membership of NATO being fast tracked).

      Worth remembering that Finnish membership of EU – from ground zero with no previous relationship with the EU – took a total of 24 months. There’s no reason Scottish accession would be longer, and good grounds to think it might be shorter.

      Fine, I am pleased for you. And do you speak for the rest of us Scots? Do these “breaks” work for the rest of us? How can anybody say they do WHEN WE DON’T KNOW WHAT THE “BREAKS” WILL BE?

      Nobody knows. the future isn’t ours to see. As I said above, if the likely majority of Scots who want to be inside the EU find the “breaks” or terms of membership unpalatable then doubtless they will ensure their government rejects the terms and we’ll do something else. When it comes down to brass tacks, I still think Scots will do a cost benefit analysis and consider the benefits of EU membership outweigh the costs of being a net contributor. Time will tell.

      Again, really? So they don’t know the meaning of “independent”, and when they heard the repeated mantra of “ever closer union” they just stuck their fingers in their ears.

      Yes, really. Nobody really believes the EU is going to evolve into a Federal Union and dissolve the independence of all the member states any time soon. The dreams of euro-federalists may happen someday, but it could be generations or centuries hence. Meanwhile, back in the real world….

      Hungary is approaching the point where it will soon transition from a net receiver of EU subsidies to a net exporter of its sovereign wealth to Brussels. And because Hungary is led by a party and a politician who actually prioritises Hungary, “Huxit” is being discussed.

      So what? Let them go if they want. Nobody in the EU will shed much of a tear for Orban and his nice bunch of lads. There is no compulsion to be or remain a member as our little Englander friends just showed. If Hungarians – or anyone else – want a different future, then let them do it. The majority of Hungarians may very well feel prioritising their national interest takes precedence over everything else. Doubtless they’ll see what a great success the UK has made of brexit and draw their own conclusions.

      Will it happen? What the pro-EU zealots fail to grasp is just how much the political landscape of Europe and the EU has been changed by the war we can’t discuss on here.

      It’s probably too early to tell what the long term impact of Vlad’s Special Military Operation will be on the EU, European integration and the relationship between the EU and USA/NATO, and the impact on global security vis-à-vis China, the Indo-Pacific and BRICS.

      You don’t have to be a pro-EU zealot to see there are potential benefits, or to see that there are dangers too. We might see integration speeding up and deepening, or we might see centrifugal forces winning. In the short to medium term however, it looks like the EU has pulled together.

      The perceived threat from Vlad and his nice bunch of lads seems to be making a role for the EU in defence and security more likely, rather than less likely. It’s also focusing minds on energy supplies, to not being in thrall to gas supply blackmail, and (hopefully?) to speeding up renewable energy and sustainability.

      Vlad’s actions appear to have strengthened both NATO and the EU. Defence spending in the West is increasing rapidly, heightened defence co-operation and integration are already taking place. For those who rail against the Great Satan, an independent EU based centre of power and decision making could be a good thing, though of course most of the moonhowlers think the EU is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Same old, same old.

    307. Ruby says:

      https://archive.ph/CBwxO

      Support for rejoining the EU soars in new poll

      A new Panelbase survey has found that Scotland is even more opposed to Brexit than in 2016, when 62 per cent voted against. Now 72 per cent say they would vote Remain,while 69 per cent, would vote to rejoin the EU — up from 61 per cent in January.

    308. Andy Ellis says:

      @McDuff 11.54 am

      Nobody is disputing that New Scots from the UK are probably more likely to favour remaining British than seeing Scotland become independent. We have one poll that suggested a 70/30 split. That isn’t much to go on. We don’t know whether that will have changed since 2014, or how many more New Scots there are now than in 2014.

      Your subjective experience that 7 out of 8 English born folk opposing independence may chime with the reality, or it may be an over estimate for the whole class of “all English born people with an indyref vote”. Doubtless we all know lots of folk from the rest of the UK who are staunchly pro-independence too, even if they are overall a minority.

      There are many, many more Scots who fit your description of identifying as British first, and Scottish second. They are instinctive unionists and will never support independence under any circumstances. Whether they elect to take Scottish citizenship post independence in future is an interesting one: how many would feel British enough to live as what would be effectively a foreign national in an independent Scotland?

      For what it’s worth, I find it odd that so many in the movement – although I still think you’re a relatively small minority – are so keen to exclude New Scots from participation. Civic nationalism means something to many of us. We’re not simply going to give up on it because some are convinced the only way we can win is to disenfranchise a large percentage of the electorate on grounds of ethnic origin and birthplace, a practice that hasn’t been followed in other comparable self determination referendums.

      I understand why people are exasperated at the prospect that in a relatively narrow victory for the No side in 2014, the result may have been swung by No voting “New Scots”.

      My issue, and that of most others who support civic nationalism, is that the appropriate response to that exasperation isn’t to change the rules and disenfranchise some random percentage of the electorate, rather the correct response is to ensure our arguments are better, that we increase voter registration and turnout, and – most importantly of all – that we ensure a far higher percentage of “native born” Scots support independence.

      The fact that only a bare majority did so in 2014 isn’t an achievement, it’s an indictment.

    309. Andy Ellis says:

      @MacDuff 11.54 am

      Apologies: I posted a response to your comment but it’s moderation and I can’t really be arsed trying to figure out which word has fallen foul of the filter to repost it.

    310. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis says:22 August, 2022 at 12:01 pm

      Thanks for your response.

      Not saying you have convinced me, but you argue your corner convincingly.

      Perhaps we can agree to disagree for now. As I am about to point out to Ruby, Scotland will not be rejoining the EU. Scotland will be joining the EU for the first time. Given that the terms under which we could join are not yet known, my own view is that this is a simple fact that has not dawned on a lot of Scots.

      How else could such a leap of faith have such high support? Considerably higher support, in fact, than the “leap of faith” that is support for Scottish Independence.

      Meantime, every poster who claims how prosperous an iScotland will be is also upping the amounts Scotland in the EU will have to contribute.

      If that matters not to the Scots, then fine, but I think we at least need to have it clearly spelled out before we are asked to decide.

    311. John Main says:

      @ Ruby says:22 August, 2022 at 12:16 pm

      “Support for rejoining the EU soars in new poll

      69 per cent, would vote to rejoin the EU”

      There’s your category error right there, Ruby.

      Scotland won’t be rejoining the EU, as Scotland was never in the EU. The UK was in the EU. The UK left the EU.

      iScotland, at around one tenth the size of the UK, when negotiating to JOIN the EU, won’t get the same terms as did the UK.

      If the poll question asked for support for Scotland rejoining the EU, then the question was flawed. Thus the answer is misleading.

    312. Mark Boyle says:

      McDuff says:
      22 August, 2022 at 11:54 am

      English people are more “nativist” than Scots

      No they’re not, they simply don’t have the absurd psychological delusions which makes almost half the natives pretend to be Irish or Ulsterian on occasions in accordance with the “culture” of two institutionally sectarian clubs from a Mickey Mouse football league whose existence gives meaning to their sorry existences.

    313. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 1.27 pm

      I agree it’s a new application as far as the EU is concerned. However, there is no precedent for the Scots situation, in as much as Scotland was part of the EU within the UK for decades. It’s not in remotely the same situation as other candidate members when it comes to seeking entry in its own right, particularly as the SG has stated its willingness to ensure that we stay as closely aligned as possible to EU legislation.

      I think when the day dawns that an independent Scotland has to choose a future path, the various alternatives will be done to death at that point. Few will be unaware of what the various different options will be.

      The leap of faith as you put it is grounded simply in the attachment Scots have to being part of Europe, and aligned with what many regards as a communitarian, progressive project which is a “force for good”, even if you personally disagree, and/or in spite of the EU’s manifest difficulties, failures and issues.

      Oftentimes that belief is as much a differentiator between “Little Englanderism” and “Scottish communitarian progressivism” as anything concrete or objective that you can point to. Even if the belief may be a bit of a stretch, or in your eyes a lot of tosh, it has resonance for many Scots, and if nothing else contains enough of an element of truth to be persuasive for many.

      My own view FWIW is that Scotland would move quickly to join EFTA, then seek to do a deal with the EU allowing free market access and a medium term path toward full membership if the right terms can be agreed. In the end, Scots will have to decide if they think the benefits of full membership, pooling some sovereignty, access to the single market and being a fully integrated member that will end up being a net contributor to the EU budget, is a better deal than staying outside, not pooling significant sovereignty, not having any say or influence in EU decision making but still being impacted by it if we’re in the single market in a Norwegian style relationship.

      We won’t know what the cost benefit analysis of that will be until it happens, but that doesn’t mean many people will already have chosen a side. The same can be said of independence. I’d vote for independence even if it was guaranteed to make me personally worse off, or if it was convincingly shown Scotland would be worse off in the short to medium term, because I believe in the long term it would be better, but also because I think any self respecting people should want to be independent and not make it conditional simply on monetary advantage.

      I understand that others may be solely or significantly influenced by whether independence makes them better or worse off of course, and have some sympathy for your view that people who think that way are probably decisive, in that the dyed in the wool pro’s and anti’s have already picked their side, and relatively few flip from one side to the other.

    314. Republicofscotland says:

      “In any colonial environment we also have to be aware of the ‘colonial mindset’ condition and what this means for an oppressed people. Simply informing people suffering from such a condition that they might be a few quid better off therefore seems at best a very crude or rudimentary approach. Independence is about self-recovery of a doun-hauden people and their culture, language etc., for which the only cure is liberation.”

      Spot on Alf.

    315. Republicofscotland says:

      “I have a lot of English neighbours and in the run up to the ref in ’14 I carefully asked them how they would vote. Out of 8, 7 said they would vote no,which is what I roughly expected.”

      McDuff @11.54am.

      That’s probably a snap shot of what happened in 2014 all across Scotland, as 71,2% of folk from the rest of the UK voted no to Scottish independence in 2014.

    316. James che says:

      The UK does not legally exist in the treaty of the union, The Scots that signed the treaty with England agreed that the new parliament was the Great British Parliament, forever after,

      The UK parliament does not have a treaty with the 1707 Scots parliament of the Three estates.
      The UK parliament cannot over rule or impose its legislation, statues and Laws over Scots Law before or after it changed its name and breach article 1 of the 1707 treaty of the union.

    317. Republicofscotland says:

      Alf @10.35pm.

      Alf its very unlikely that the SNP never mind Ivan McKee will acknowledge your excellent paper mores the pity.

      Breeks @7.45am.

      Breeks I think we all know than an indyref won’t materialise next year, so McKee doesn’t have to be precise to fool the masses, as long as the SNP is seen to be doing something on the indyfront by the indy supporting electorate, it will be enough to fool them, and when 2023 comes and goes without an indyref Sturgeon can blame the UKSC and the Tory government for it not happening, job done.

    318. Gregory Beekman says:

      You may be interested in the comment I made on Steph Paton’s article in The National: The fights for independence and trans rights are allied against the Tories

      My comment
      I am 100% for trans rights but I am 100% against the idea that ‘woman’ is a ‘societal construct’. Woman is a biological reality.

      I recognise that there are some people with genuine gender dysphoria that need help, and if they need to have a sex change operation to make their lives better, then I’m all for that.

      But a biological male that does not take female hormones and does not have a sex change operation cannot simply call himself a woman because he believes ‘woman’ is just a feeling, and thus anyone can claim to be ‘woman’.

      Mental health is a complex issue and I will not claim to understand why there has been an increase in young people presenting with gender dysphoria. But I do believe that we need to explore their mental health more fully before simply affirming that the feelings of unease in their lives has its roots in gender identity.

      Stephen makes one point I do agree with – it’s not for other nations to decide how we go forward with our own policies, but it’s prudent to look at what other countries do to see if they can inspire our own policies. The issues with Tavistock definitely need to be considered here in Scotland, with the aim of updating our own procedures if need be.

      Finally, I wish all trans people the best in their lives and I apologize to them if I have seemed less than caring for them – this is not the case. It is right that we help trans individuals, but we need more options than simply rushing them into surgery or into taking puberty blockers.

    319. McDuff says:

      Mark Boyle
      Dear dear, you really don’t like anyone.
      I lived in England for a considerable number of years and yes they are more “nativist” and nationalist and right wing than Scotland.

    320. Andy Ellis says:

      7/8 is 87.5%

      75% would be 6/8

      As has been pointed out before, the total number of rest of UK voters in Scotland is easily “dissolvable” by the expedient of increasing the turnout to the same levels as the Quebec referendum in 1995 or just increasing the number of native Scots voting Yes.

      Making windows in to people’s souls is and will remain a deeply regressive concept. Civic nationalists should have none of it. Luckily most are better people than some of the regulars in here.

    321. StuartM says:

      I’ll say this again:
      THE DECISION ABOUT WHETHER SCOTLAND LEAVES THE UK SHOULD ONLY BE MADE BY THOSE WHO HAVE A LONG-TERM COMMITMENT TO ACTUALLY LIVING THERE POST REFERENDUM.

      That means that expatriate Scots who live permanently in London, Bath (sorry Rev), Australia, Canada,NZ, USA etc don’t get to vote. It does mean that English people who are permanently settled in Scotland DO get to have a say. I have suggested a test of 5 years continuous residence in Scotland as a reasonable basis for eligibility.

    322. Mark Boyle says:

      McDuff says:
      22 August, 2022 at 3:24 pm

      Mark Boyle
      Dear dear, you really don’t like anyone.
      I lived in England for a considerable number of years and yes they are more “nativist” and nationalist and right wing than Scotland.

      You accuse the English of being more “nativist” despite all evidence to the contrary, and you say I am the one with the issue of not liking people?

      And which of the two is the nation where almost all of its MPs are “nationalist” – England or Scotland, champ, hmmm?

      But that’s not the real problem with what I said, was it?

      Aw, baby’s all upset nasty man said unkind things about the Old Firm?

      GOOD!

    323. StuartM says:

      @ Andy Ellis 22 August, 2022 at 3:38 pm

      There’s an easy way to increase the turnout at an election or referendum – do what we do in Australia and hold them on a Saturday. The idea of holding an election on what is a working day for most of the voters is absurd. Yes most countries have laws requiring employers to allow employees to take time off to vote, but that is disruptive to production and means lost wages to the employee. And guess who heads up the list next time the firm is laying off workers? The one who caused the foreman headaches, that’s who. There’s only one reason to hold elections on a weekday – to discourage the working class from voting. It’s a lot easier for a white-collar worker to take time off to vote and then make up the time by working late, not an option on the assembly line.

      Another benefit of Saturday voting is that school premises are available as polling places. In Oz it’s compulsory to vote in elections so we have to make it easy to vote. Consequently there are numerous polling places set up in schools, church halls, etc. Each polling place is issued with electoral rolls and ballot papers for all other electorates in the State so that if you can’t return to your electorate to vote you can make an absentee vote. If you are interstate or overseas you can vote absentee in the State capital or at an Australian embassy overseas. It’s also easy to get a postal vote which is counted as long as it arrives by the second Friday after election day. Contrast this with the UK where AIUI you can only vote at the polling booth where you’re registered and postal votes are only counted if they arrive by Election day. Which is the real democracy?

    324. StuartM says:

      @Mark Boyle

      It’s not only the Scots that the English are dismissive of, they frequently had a similar attitude to Australians, at least until Neighbours and Home & Away started showing on British TV. I noticed this with my English relatives and their husbands when I first returned to the UK as an adult. They seemed to think that Aussies were “colonials”, country cousins who were a bit slow and unsophisticated. That attitude was considerably dampened when they actually visited Oz and were confronted with a thriving modern country.

      On business trips to the UK in the 80s & 90s I found the contrast between the superiority complex of so many of the people I met and the maddening inefficiency of so much of British business and government to be baffling. “Because that’s the way we do it here”. Stuck in a traffic jam outside Heathrow Airport at 6am I was confronted by a billboard proclaiming “Heathrow world’s best airport”. Clearly they’d never experienced any other world airport. Stop navel gazing. It’s not enough to chant “British is best”, you actually have to BE the best.

      I must say that attitude was much more common in England than Scotland, probably because so many Scots have relatives in “the colonies” or have lived there themselves. However on her first visit to Australia my uncle’s wife persisted in addressing my parents’ Australian friends as “you colonials”, so stupidity is not a purely English trait unfortunately.

    325. Rab Davis says:

      Not been on Wings for a while, but have noticed that Andy Ellis and John Main take up about 75% of all the printed words on every thread. It’s either them posting directly,,,or people replying to their posts, resulting in “Brain Freeze”.

      The beauty of Wings used to be the diversity of short informative posts from a mixture of contributors.

      But now we are reduced to a couple of names who have come to dominate the whole blog.

      In the end people looking in just stop reading and go elsewhere.

      Thousands of words either from these two individuals or replies to these two individuals does not make for good reading and in the end becomes a quick skite past every one of the words associated with these two names.

      And I am speaking as a complete neutral with no axe to grind with any of them.

      Not only have the SNP been fucked up since 2014, but it seems Wings Over Scotland has been fucked up as well.

      Deliberate or otherwise,,,Wings is not in a good place.

    326. George Ferguson says:

      Why has the Presiding Officer not recalled the Scottish Parliament? Surely MSPs have some crises to address in their inboxes. In recess until September 4th? Extravagant and out of touch.

    327. Dorothy Devine says:

      Rab Davis , and do you think that’s why they are here ‘to kill off Wings’ or do you think they have their own blogs but no-one reads them so they piggyback on this one?

      For the life of me I do not understand why anyone here responds to them – the Rev had everyone well told what to do with trolls.

    328. Chas says:

      Rab Davis

      I read your post with interest.

      It is strange that you pick out Andy Ellis and John Main yet ignore the likes of James Che and RoS.

      You claim to be ‘neutral’ however I suspect that Ellis and Main simply post ‘things’ that you do not like or agree with!

      Are you an avid reader of the posts from the founder members of the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade-Che & RoS?

    329. John Main says:

      @ Rab Davis says:23 August, 2022 at 5:41 am

      “Not been on Wings for a while, but have noticed that Andy Ellis and John Main take up about 75% of all the printed words on every thread

      But now we are reduced to a couple of names who have come to dominate the whole blog”

      Awa and shite, man.

      Take Dorothy in with you, show her how it’s done.

    330. Andy Ellis says:

      @Gregory Breeknab 3.21 pm

      Hear, hear! I noticed that the vast majority of the comments below Paton’s own retweet of the piece in the National were negative. Perhaps the worm has turned and folk generally are finally waking up to the dangers of the TRA cuckoo in the independence movement nest?

    331. John Main says:

      @Chas 8:21

      Think of TV programmes from the eighties, where a computer is represented with flashing lights and spinning tape reels on the front (big moving parts, which play well on screen).

      A character feeds in a computer programme which the computer can’t handle. The lights flash faster, the tape reels spin ever more quickly. Smoke starts to pour out. A humming noise rises in pitch and volume …

      Boom!

    332. Ruby says:

      Gregory Beekman says:
      22 August, 2022 at 3:21 pm

      Finally, I wish all trans people the best in their lives and I apologize to them if I have seemed less than caring for them

      My problem with the term trans is that I haven’t a clue what that means.

      One thing I am sure of is that transwomen are not women. Transwomen are transwomen.

      I wish them all the best in setting up their own sports, toilets, hospital wards, prisons, rape crisis centres, political parties etc etc.

      I would probably feel more kindly towards them if they hadn’t hijacked the SNP & if Sturgeon hadn’t let them.

    333. Mark Boyle says:

      Rab Davis says:
      23 August, 2022 at 5:41 am

      Not been on Wings for a while, but have noticed that Andy Ellis and John Main take up about 75% of all the printed words on every thread. It’s either them posting directly,,,or people replying to their posts, resulting in “Brain Freeze”.

      The beauty of Wings used to be the diversity of short informative posts from a mixture of contributors.

      Oh, behave yourself!

      Since when did either of them post a 3000 word long rambling snapshot of what’s going through the synapses of their brains that morning over their tea and Frosties; managing to take in voting criteria, “Scotland Is Sovereign”, the price of tottie scones and the latest Jimmy Savile conspiracy theory all in one tortuous post – often with minimum paragraphing or the remotest sympathy for the intended readers?

      Dorothy Devine says:
      23 August, 2022 at 8:09 am

      Rab Davis , and do you think that’s why they are here ‘to kill off Wings’ or do you think they have their own blogs but no-one reads them so they piggyback on this one?

      There’s nothing quite so disingenuous – or cowardly – as making an accusation disguised as a question to a third party, and it would have been nice if someone as “concerned” as yourself had made your feelings known when I was telling Peter Bellend to cease using WoS to guerilla advertise his shitty blog which was exceptionally bad manners, but nary a peep from you came.

      As for killing off Wings, I’d say the slipshod hosting (more prolonged downtime yesterday) is far more likely to do that …

    334. Andy Ellis says:

      @Rab Davis 5.41 am

      I can only echo what John Main and Chas say above. It’s never hard to spot someone with an agenda in here, nor is it hard to spot those whose intent isn’t to discuss or debate in good faith, but to close down debate and other those they disagree with. There’s a long history in here of people trying to tone police what is and isn’t acceptable too, and Rev Stu tends either to ignore them or only take action when folk try his patience on particular issues.

      The most egregious offender in the past was a certain Cameron Brodie who used to contaminate the BTL threads with endless cut and past links to off topic and extraneous secondary sources he insisted were important. It took quite a while for him to get banned, and even then there were some who insisted we should just put up with it and scroll past. I make no apologies for being one of those who pushed for him to be banned, because he was making BTL commentary impossible to follow. I recall even a few of those now routinely attacking me and others in here supported the ejection of Brodie.

      As Chas notes above, it seems odd that your concern for the site is so one sided and excluded the most egregious “bangers on” like James Che, Republic of Scotland, or a few others we could all doubtless name. I certainly don’t always agree with John Main or Chas, but unlike some who are supposedly on the same side as me, or at least more aligned with my general views, they open to rational debate.

      If you’ve been paying attention, you’ll also see that those “othering” posters they disagree with as unionist stooges, secret Sturgeonites, 77th Brigade etc, is almost exclusively the preserve of what Chas calls the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade and sundry conspiracy theorists. That doesn’t speak to them being rational people open to honest debate.

      I would agree that some folk are in desperate need of an editor before posting their verbose, stream of consciousness contributions, but if Rev Stu was that concerned doubtless he’d impose a character limit. There again, if someone is responding to a BTL post with many points or questions, it’s not hard for the response to be fairly lengthy if for clarity you include the original point and your response in a post.

      Of course, you could just take the Dorothy Devine option and not interact with those you disagree with at all. I’ve done it myself now with a few posters because sometimes the game just isn’t worth the candle, or because it become tiresome repeatedly being cunt-called by folk who think that’s something to be proud of.

    335. Andy Ellis says:

      @Mark Boyle 8.43 am

      Well said! I generally ignore the pronouncements of Dorothy, who appears to use virtually all of her posts in a vain attempt at tone policing BTL here and to ostentatiously point out that she’s ignoring me or others and advising others to do the same, but she’s another borderline obsessional along with “Scott” and Brotherhood who have real bees in their bonnet about folk who disagree with them.

      It really seems to rile them up for example that I have a few pieces I put on WordPress years ago, and yet I have the temerity to post my views on here when they don’t agree with them. that then get’s conflated in to some conspiracy theory that it’s only done to promote our own blogs, or because our own blogs have somehow failed.

      I do remember, and agree with your view, that it was bad manners for folk like Peter Bell and Grouse Beater piggy backing their contributions on here to try and fluff their own blogs on here, but then we also know that both individuals have egos a mile wide and graphene thick.

    336. Ruby says:

      The term cunt is a very commonly used term in Scotland.

      Everyone knows exactly what it means.

      It’s not racist, it’s not homophobic, it’s not transphobic, it’s just a very descriptive word.

      It’s a word used by adults it’s not generally something you hear in the playground.

    337. Ruby says:

      I find the term Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade
      offensive and racist.

    338. Ruby says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      6 July, 2022 at 12:48 pm

      Andy Ellis, Ruby: if either of you ever mentions the other by name (including any “clever” ways of doing so indirectly) again in any context whatsoever you’re banned. Clear? Not comment deleted, not pre-moderation, banned.

      I have HAD ENOUGH of this fucking playground shit.

      Maybe these same T&C should be extended to include other posters.

      Gotta say my experience on Wings has greatly improved since this ban.

    339. Republicofscotland says:

      Here Sturgeon defends her decision not create a nationalised energy firm that could’ve given that wee bit cheaper energy and gas to Scots.

      Yet her government is supposedly in the process of producing a white paper on energy outlining the case for independence.

      However Sturgeon gives the game away here, knowing this, she should’ve organised a referendum to dissolve this putrid union after the disaster of Brexit.

      “The First Minister also said that the powers to make a “meaningful intervention” in the energy crisis were still reserved to Westminster.”

      We’re going nowhere whilst Sturgeon is FM, we need her out.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20687387.nicola-sturgeon-scotland-still-facing-energy-crisis-nationalised-supplier%2F

    340. Andy Ellis says:

      @Mark Boyle 8.43 am

      There’s nothing quite so disingenuous – or cowardly – as making an accusation disguised as a question to a third party, and it would have been nice if someone as “concerned” as yourself had made your feelings known when I was telling Peter Bellend to cease using WoS to guerilla advertise his shitty blog which was exceptionally bad manners, but nary a peep from you came.

      As for killing off Wings, I’d say the slipshod hosting (more prolonged downtime yesterday) is far more likely to do that …

      Strange isn’t it? I can’t quite put my finger on when it was that woo-woo conspiracy theorising became if not de rigueur BTL here, it became much more common amongst many of those posting regularly? For any given issue there appears to be a preference – almost an atavistic need in some cases – to look at any issue and decide that it is best explained by the latest outlandish, improbable conspiracy theory explanation they read about.

      Perhaps it’s a Covid related phenomenon? The a-scientific flat-earthers certainly seemed to gain traction from that. Perhaps it’s just a case of the devil making work for idle hands…? There certainly seems to have been an upsurge of people who really ought to know better deciding that anyone who disagrees with them here or elsewhere is not just wrong, but actually working for the other side.

      It’s almost a mantra in here now that anyone disagreeing with the latest brain farts from the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade or the Brigadoon Popular Front types is working for the opposition. It’s particularly amusing when it comes from the usual suspects who cling limpet like to their cosy invisibility cloaks on-line the better to pepper spray us with their latest hot take on who is a 77th Brigade operative, or not a “real” independence supporter.

      No huge surprise that the cognitive leap from making windows in the souls of other independence supporters to deciding New Scots aren’t pure enough to be included in the demos at all isn’t all that great.

    341. Colin the Keelie says:

      A WARNING TO SCOTLAND’S MPs and MSPs:

      If the UK Supreme Court (SC) rules the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to legislate for an indyref the FM says the SNP will seek a plebiscite election on indy at the next general election.

      That response would be woefully inadequate.

      Scotland’s people would be denied the right to FREELY self-determine their political future by referendum in violation of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland. It would also be in violation of international law (the UN Charter and International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, both of which have been ratified by the UK).

      Our MPs should demand an immediate amendment to the Scotland Act 1998 to give the Scottish Parliament the power to freely legislate to enable self-determination.

      If Scotland’s MPs and MSPs fail to act, or the UK fails to respect and uphold the legal rights of the people of Scotland, a more robust response is required than “business as normal” until a general election, for Scotland’s MPs and MSPs would be colonial administrators. Agents of our oppression.

      If Scotland’s UK-salaried politicians try to continue with business as normal, I believe the the justified anger of the sovereign people of Scotland will be directed at our politicians for their absolute failure to defend our legal rights.

      (But, no matter how angry people are, they should NEVER resort to violence or make those sort of threats.)

    342. Republicofscotland says:

      This is an eye opener for such a short period of time, the grand total over the centuries must be astronomical.

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fawt51IWIAAP6Ic?format=png&name=900×900

    343. AberdeenPict says:

      Have had trouble with the usual Gateway problem and maybe it has already been posted further up.

      Sara Salyers/Salvo/SSRG and Aye Aberdeen will be at the Blue Lamp Bar in Aberdeen tonight. Kicks of at 7.30pm if anyone is in the area.

      http://www.thebluelampaberdeen.com/event-details/salvo-our-scottish-constitution

    344. Republicofscotland says:

      Maybe Cherry will make a bid for leadership if Sturgeon the betrayer of Scots stands down at the next Holyrood elections.

      “A senior SNP MP has said she would not rule out standing for the party leadership in a future contest.

      Joanna Cherry said she could be a candidate in the “long term” and also revealed approaches had been made about her joining Labour and Alex Salmond’s Alba party.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailyrecord.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fsnp-mp-joanna-cherry-open-27800653%3Futm_source%3Dtwitter.com%26utm_medium%3Dsocial%26utm_campaign%3Dsharebar

      Today is the 700+ anniversary of the execution of the Scottish hero William Wallace.

    345. Republicofscotland says:

      She hasn’t got a hope in hell that the Britnat media machine will be fair and honest in its reporting, come another referendum on dissolving this bucket of shite union.

      “A FORMER BBC journalist has stressed the need for a fair and balanced state broadcaster in an independent Scotland after becoming “seriously concerned” about a decline in “honest journalism”.

      Ruth Watson, who is now a media officer for the national Yes movement network, has insisted our democracy is in trouble because of the biased practices of mainstream media.

      Speaking on MP Drew Hendry’s Scotland’s Choice podcast, Watson described her shock at the BBC’s output during the 2014 independence referendum in the UK and said she witnessed people who trained and worked with her drop the editorial standards they had taught her.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20715643.former-bbc-journalist-stresses-need-honest-journalism-independent-scotland%2F

    346. Ruby says:

      Chas says:
      23 August, 2022 at 8:21 am

      Rab Davis

      I read your post with interest.

      It is strange that you pick out Andy Ellis and John Main yet ignore the likes of James Che and RoS.

      You claim to be ‘neutral’ however I suspect that Ellis and Main simply post ‘things’ that you do not like or agree with!

      Are you an avid reader of the posts from the founder members of the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade-Che & RoS?

      What would you say are things people don’t like or agree with that Ellis & Main post?

    347. Republicofscotland says:

      A rough translation of this meaningless photoshoot opportunity for Sturgeon the betrayer goes as, we’ll talk for a bit then I’ll finger point to Westminster because I can’t do a bloody thing about it, due to the fact that I sold out Scotland to save the union and that means energy is a reserved matter, but hey doesn’t my two-piece suit look good, and my hair as well, God I love myself.

      “NICOLA Sturgeon is set to chair a special summit on Tuesday to discuss how to mitigate the impact of rising energy bills.

      With warnings that the average amount UK households pay for their gas and electricity could reach £6000 next year, Sturgeon is bringing together representatives from both power companies and consumer groups to discuss what support can be provided.

      The First Minister has already warned that families will face “destitution and devastation” if energy prices increase again in October. ”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20712295.nicola-sturgeon-prepares-energy-summit-cost-living-soars%2F

    348. Anybody else having problems logging in to Wings?

    349. Ruby says:

      https://archive.ph/CBwxO

      Support for rejoining the EU soars in new poll

      A new Panelbase survey has found that Scotland is even more opposed to Brexit than in 2016, when 62 per cent voted against. Now 72 per cent say they would vote Remain,while 69 per cent, would vote to rejoin the EU — up from 61 per cent in January.

      I posted this earlier. I thought it was very interesting. I am really disappointed that the only reply I got was from John Main who said something along the lines of

      The poll is wrong because Scotland was never a member of the EU.

    350. Republicofscotland says:

      The puppet master and the next SNP leader (possibly FM) Heir Apparent Angus Robertson is concerned over this.

      “THE Scottish Government has recommended that Holyrood should not consent to the UK’s controversial Northern Ireland Protocol Bill.”

      Robertson said.

      “Robertson, in a 16-page memorandum, set out the reasons why the Scottish Government believes the bill should be rejected, including its “illegality” under international law and the impact on Scotland.

      He wrote that the Scottish Government “is extremely concerned about the potential damage such a dispute could do to Scotland’s vital interests, both in terms of trade and through exclusion from prestigious funding and cooperation opportunities such as the EU Horizon Programme”.”

      If Robertson or his boss the betrayer really cared about Scotland and Scots being dragged out of EU programmes never mind the entire EU, they would’ve done something (a indyref after Brexit) about it years ago, they did nothing and it speaks volumes about them.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20715616.holyrood-told-reject-controversial-northern-ireland-protocol-bill%2F

    351. Ruby says:

      Rab Davis says:
      22 August, 2022 at 7:10 am

      Watch out all you women golfers out there,,,the men are on your case.

      And if you complain you’ll be labelled a Transphobe.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11129215/amp/Golfer-set-transgender-woman-win-coveted-Ladies-PGA-Tour-Card.html

      I though this was also an interesting post. I would have been good to hear the opinion of Golf club members regarding this. Maybe male golfers don’t care about this.

      Maybe too busy othering Wings posters by referring to them as ‘Haggis Munchers’ or some such shit..

    352. Ruby says:

      The Tree of Liberty says:
      23 August, 2022 at 3:45 pm

      Anybody else having problems logging in to Wings?

      It’s an ongoing thing that affects everyone.

    353. Ruby says:

      Hi Dorothy

      My advice for what it’s worth would be that you should complain to Stu about trolls. That’s the way Cameron Brodie was banned.

      I would also suggest you pretend you got a warning like this from Stu. Just replace my name with yours. I am so glad I got this ban. 🙂

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      6 July, 2022 at 12:48 pm

      Andy Ellis, Ruby: if either of you ever mentions the other by name (including any “clever” ways of doing so indirectly) again in any context whatsoever you’re banned. Clear? Not comment deleted, not pre-moderation, banned.

      Have a nice evening Dorothy.

      Illegitimi cunnus non carborundum

    354. Robert Louis says:

      The problem for English Tory idiots like David Frost writing in the Telegraph is they mistake the SNP as not being the people of Scotland. They cannot grasp that it is not just the SNP who see themselves as Scottish and NEVER ‘british’. Most Scots see themselves as Scottish and NOT ‘british’. The coterie of English Tory thickos that currently inhabit Westminster think that by bashing the SNP, the desire for independence will just magically disappear, but they just do not ‘get it’.

      No amount of union jackery or imposition of abusive phrases about Scotland will kill my desire for Scotland regaining its independence.

      And here’s the point, I am not alone. The more England and the English Tory wastrels like Frost or the severely cognitively challenged Truss insist Scotland isn’t allowed independence, the more my hatred of English rule increases.

      What I want, more than anything, is just one credible journalist to ask the likes of Truss and her craven cabal of English Tory ‘british’ nationalists this question, “if Scotland does hold an independence referendum, what are you going to do about it?”. London and English Tory scum can denounce a democratic referendum as much as they wish, but what will they do if it goes ahead? send in tanks? send in the English army? You see, the endgame is quite simple, if England decides to take such serious action, it will only strengthen peoples desire to be rid of English rule over Scotland.

      Honestly, with each passing day, I hate English rule over Scotland more and more. Like many, I am furious at how Scotland is being abused with impunity by Tories and media comentators in England alike.

      Why would I ever want my country to be ruled by such people, who clearly hate Scotland and its people. Perfidious Albion indeed.

    355. Mark Boyle says:

      Oh goodie! Wings is back up!

      The hosting company must have got their emergency delivery of coal for the server after all.

    356. Republicofscotland says:

      So MI5 tipped off MI6 that a Sikh Scotsman Jagtar Singh Johal who campaigns for human right for Sikhs in India, was entering India on a visit. Mr Johal known as Jaggy was abducted off the streets and has been held in an Indian prison where he’s been tortured for the last five years and trumped up charges have been aimed at him.

      “Human rights group Reprieve has identified his case among anonymised details published in the annual report by the UK’s investigatory powers commissioner.

      It sets out how MI5 and MI6 passed information about a British national to foreign authorities who then detained and tortured them.”

      Its clear to me anyway that the British security services actively works against Scottish interests and have been doing so for years. Willie McRae being a prime example.

    357. Republicofscotland says:

      Oh look the head of Scottish Power said of the recent protestors, some numpty claimed that the staff were all (Bold) Terrified!!!

      Geez Peace.

      “Two weeks ago demonstrators stormed into the energy firm’s Glasgow headquarters and demanded a meeting with Mr Anderson.

      After “occupying” the building for ten minutes, they left with no arrests made.

      Mr Anderson subsequently said that the demonstrations were “peaceful, dignifice and spanning political divides – and all with one message, people urgently need help to get through this”.”

    358. Christopher Pike says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      23 August, 2022 at 9:07 am
      @Mark Boyle 8.43 am

      I do remember, and agree with your view, that it was bad manners for folk like Peter Bell and Grouse Beater piggy backing their contributions on here to try and fluff their own blogs on here, but then we also know that both individuals have egos a mile wide and graphene thick.

      ————————–

      Grouse Beater, the eccentric individual who wishes to see ‘Scots’ replaced as the official language taught in Scottish schools (yes, they really do walk among us). The same Grouse Beater who had a successful career in the United States because he was a native English speaker.

      The same Grouse Beater who writes “Proud purveyor of indigenous news to Indigenous People…”. There must be some kind of competition to see who can be the biggest zoomer in the independence movement. Only two days ago Gordon Ross said that Scotland wasn’t part of the UK. Imagine these people let loose on undecided voters?

    359. John Main says:

      Nobody took me up on my question about how far the 37 billion spent on Covid track & trace would have gone if divided equally between all UK households to help with leccy bills.

      Guess I must have been hogging the blog. Is that a thing? – sounds like it should be bannable. Go to it, usual suspects.

      But I digress. 27.8 million households in the UK. Doing the math, we could have had £1330.94 each.

      And still be getting the extra £400 recently announced.

      Not too bad.

    360. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ruby , I try but sometimes they just piss me off!

      Robert Louis, I have spent the last few years in despair or enraged – I suspect I now have a stomach ulcer thanks to all the utter ordure we endure.

      RoS , most interesting but not surprising – my sympathy lies with Jaggy and his family. It seems we have always been cruelly careless and greedy wherever we planted the British flag and the sense of superiority lives on.

    361. Suse Kemp says:

      Neil Mackenzie makes the crucial point

      “[Truss] said “What we need to do is show the people of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales what we are delivering for them.”

      Who is “we” in that sentence?”

      On one view of international law (Boyle-Crawford opinion for UKGOV from prior to the referendum) BOTH Scotland and England have ceased to exist as sovereign states. Yet there is no political way to sell that in England. So UKGOV persist with this fiction of England = UK.

    362. John Main says:

      @ Colin the Keelie says:23 August, 2022 at 11:32 am

      “If Scotland’s UK-salaried politicians try to continue with business as normal, I believe the the justified anger of the sovereign people of Scotland will be directed at our politicians for their absolute failure to defend our legal rights.”

      Would these be the same politicians who not only failed to defend our legal rights during Covid, but actively trampled on them?

      If so, I may have spotted a flaw in your argument, Colin.

      Incidentally, is it not the case that some, much, or perhaps even all of the emergency legislation rammed through WM and HR during the “good old Covid days” is still in place?

      I seem to recall a bit of a stushie about that, now long since died down and forgotten.

    363. John Main says:

      @ Dorothy Devine says:23 August, 2022 at 5:30 pm

      “It seems we have always been cruelly careless and greedy wherever we planted the British flag and the sense of superiority lives on.”

      Good gravy Dorothy, I had no idea you were so old, or had lived such an eventful life.

      Off the top of my head, I can’t think of anywhere the British flag has been planted in living memory, other than Port Stanley.

      And you were there and participating? Respect.

      [or am I reading too much into your use of “we”?]

    364. Alf Baird says:

      Christopher Pike @ 5:27 pm

      re ‘Scots’ language as not yet “the official language taught in Scottish schools”

      As the people move ever closer to liberation “suddenly the language of the ruling power is felt to burn your lips” (Fanon)

      Postcolonial theory tells us that liberated peoples always grasp thair ain mither tongue nae maitter hou roostie which they have been deprived of learning or respecting under colonial rule. Along with their culture, the indigenous language is what gives them their national consciousness – which is why the oppressor demeans it and prevents it being taught.

    365. Ruby says:

      Did we not plant the British flag in Brussels and in Calais?

      The UK uprooted the British flag from Brussels and I suspect the French will uproot the British flag from Calais in the not too distant future.

    366. James che says:

      BJ says not to worry about and energy shortage as the still have north sea oil as a reserve,

      Ahhh where would westminster be without Scotlands resources.

      Scotland don’t leave us, we love you, ( wipes false tear from eye ) as a union we are better together,

      Translated to old Scots, we love you’re land and sea resources, but do not like this land inhabited and covered by Scots,

    367. Republicofscotland says:

      The English controlled state broadcaster was terrified that the writer of the Outlander series of books, would say something positive about Scottish independence. The BBC phoned her to make sure she wouldn’t say anything inflammatory on dissolving this God awful union.

      Its well know that MI5 used to, and probably still do vet folk who want to work for the BBC, the English security services actively works against the best interests of Scots, along with a small percentage of House Jocks.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20718615.outlanders-diana-gabaldon-bbc-checked-scottish-independence-views%2F

    368. Ruby says:

      What about Tim Peake did he not plant the British flag on the moon?

      Then there’s the UK Gov planting British flags all over the place even on Scotch Whisky and in Wales.

    369. Ruby says:

      Mark Boyle says:
      23 August, 2022 at 5:04 pm

      Oh goodie! Wings is back up!

      The hosting company must have got their emergency delivery of coal for the server after all.

      Tumbleweed moment!

    370. Ruby says:

      Pretty sure there were British flags in Iraq & Afghanistan but none in Palestine.

      Sure the Scottish flag was there too ‘cos it’s stuck onto the English and N.Irish flag.

      The Scottish flag was also planted in Brussels which means anyone spouting the ‘Better Together’ mantra that Scotland was not a member of the EU is talking shit and nobody can be blamed for suspecting that person is actually a Unionist.
      Call it othering if you like I prefer to call it the truth.

      Any thoughts on how ‘one country’ can be called a Union?

    371. Republicofscotland says:

      “Then there’s the UK Gov planting British flags all over the place even on Scotch Whisky and in Wales.”

      Ruby

      The Butcher’s Apron is now everywhere in Scotland its on just about every product in the supermarkets as well.

    372. Republicofscotland says:

      Professor Richard Murphy a real economics professor and not a doggy biscuit salesman, tells us why the GERS fantasy figures should never be taken seriously.

      Just imagine for a second if these ludicrous GERS figures were for real, they would show utter failings of this bucket of shit union.

      “I HAVE been writing about Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) since 2014. I had no plan to do so, but once I had looked at what GERS was, and is, I realised it was pure and utter drivel and someone needed to talk about it.

      There are so many problems with GERS that it is hard to know where to begin, but perhaps the biggest problem is that no set of accounts, which is what GERS claims to be, should be prepared for an entity that does not exist and yet that is precisely what GERS does.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fpolitics%2F20718012.2022-gers-report-will-nonsense-last-ever-published%2F

    373. John Main says:

      @ Alf Baird says:23 August, 2022 at 6:14 pm

      “the oppressor demeans it and prevents it being taught”

      Education is devolved to HR, Alf.

      I think you need to know that.

      If you are now claiming that HR is a colonialist oppressor, we really are through the looking glass.

    374. Chas says:

      Dear Rev Stu

      Please forward 200.000 roubles or your site will continue to have access problems for readers.

      If you do not comply, even worse, Ruby, James Che and RoS will move to Bath and be your nest door neighbours!

    375. James che says:

      What is it that makes the uk government want to control what information Scots are allowed to Know,
      Why censor the economic poll that was done, or the MacCrone report,

      Fear?

      Fear of westminster and England by default being independent themselves.
      It would seem politcal giants of the old victorian empire like westminster are afraid to go it alone unless they can wangle or manipulate some other countries minerals, land and water, while taxing these supporting countries the same as Westminsters England.
      For goodness sake Westminster, you are political vampires in your Colonialism. For sucking the resources out of all three the neighbouring Countries around you.

      Should these Three Countries not get a well earned tax deduction every year for for our total
      contributions.or should the uk government that has no treaty with Scotland pay its directly.

      We have a trade agreement under the treaty of union articles,with the English parliament of 1707, not the British parliament nor the bilateral UK parliament

    376. Ruby says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      23 August, 2022 at 6:52 pm

      The Butcher’s Apron is now everywhere in Scotland its on just about every product in the supermarkets as well.

      Sign of insecurity perhaps?

      I wonder if Rainbow flags outnumber the Butcher’s Aprons.

      Not on food just on buildings & stuff.

      I don’t think we have rainbow flags on food yet. Maybe on tampons, pregnancy tests, frilly knickers, bras, chicken fillets, & HRT.

    377. John Main says:

      @Republicofscotland says:23 August, 2022 at 6:52 pm

      “The Butcher’s Apron is now everywhere in Scotland its on just about every product in the supermarkets as well.”

      Good one, Republic. You really did have me wondering about my eyesight.

      So I have just had a quick look in my fridge and cupboard.

      My conclusions; you shop in the wrong places, you have a subconscious, Freudian attraction to stuff with the butcher’s apron on, or you are simply just an eejit.

      I guess these are not mutually exclusive.

    378. Ruby says:

      Chas says:
      23 August, 2022 at 7:04 pm

      Dear Rev Stu

      Please forward 200.000 roubles or your site will continue to have access problems for readers.

      If you do not comply, even worse, Ruby, James Che and RoS will move to Bath and be your nest door neighbours!

      Another tumbleweed moment!

      The typos are quite funny

    379. Ruby says:

      John Main says:
      23 August, 2022 at 7:10 pm

      So I have just had a quick look in my fridge and cupboard.

      When he got there
      The cupboard was bare

    380. Ruby says:

      You know when you order online and there’s the option to just repeat last week’s order?

      People are reporting that this week’s order is costing £40 more than last weeks order even if it’s all the same stuff.

      Holy shit! Time to check out the cheaper brands.

      I have cut out Lurpak. I bought Tesco’s own brand ‘Buttery Spread’ it was £1. It’s absolutely fine.

      It’s made in Ireland. No Butcher’s Apron on it but no Irish flag either. Just some buttercups.

      Maybe you’re expected to hold the tub under your chin to test if you are going to like it!

    381. Republicofscotland says:

      “I wonder if Rainbow flags outnumber the Butcher’s Aprons.”

      I doubt it Ruby, but the Blue and Yellow thingy might. The O/O marched two Saturday’s (the last two) in a row in my home town plenty of Butcher’s Aprons in sight but no Saltires, the unions knuckle dragging footsoldiers have no loyalty for Scotland only for Perfidious Albion.

    382. James che says:

      Scotland did not join in union with the British parliament, Fact.
      Scotland did not join in union With Great Britain. Fact.
      Scotland did not join in union with the bilateral UK parliament. Fact.

      Scotlands parliament joined in union with the 1707 English parliament. Fact

      The British parliament did not exist until after the union, Fact,
      Great Britain did not officially Exist as a country before 1707.
      The uk parliament did not exist in 1707.
      The Scottish parliament in 1707 joined in a treaty arrangement, in our articles in our treaty they state they are with the English parliament,,

      Both parliaments joined each other, for as long as they both continued to live as political parliaments. Not just members!
      However the English parliament and the monarch in Crown, asked the Scottish parliament to close its doors, in readiness to create the British parliament.

      The Scottish parliament as a separate parliament in 1707, ( no longer in existence ) Is no longer liable to the New British parliament or UK parliament for upholding the treaty of the union.
      It cannot be held to account in its non existent state.
      The new created British parliament in 1707 failed to sign a treaty of union with Scotlands 1707 parliament before it ceased to exist,

      Who can westminster hold to account in Scotland for breaking the treaty of the union tomorrow,
      The scottish parliament,
      There is no Scottish parliament, its devolved,
      The members of the three estates died when the Scottish parliament died, For them perhaps, we could say the clergy, the Barons and the burghs,

      Thats fine by me, they do not support or stand up for scottish people.

      Scots law? Just pull the lagal rabbit out the hat How many times the parliament of England has failed to uphold the articles of the treaty of the union, starting in 1708 with the Scots laws of Treason being abolished.

    383. Scott says:

      Somewhere a nictator sits in a leather chair, behind a big wooden desk; The carrots she dangled mean nothing to her, she took her money just like all the rest.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20720081.energy-crisis-nicola-sturgeon-chairs-summit-demand-action-westminster%2F

    384. Chas says:

      Another grand post by che. Unfortunately I was unable to read all of it as I fell asleep a quarter of the way through.

      Change the record-it’s as boring today as it was the other 946 times!

    385. Republicofscotland says:

      Another gold mine comes online and it will make a fortune for the energy firms TotalEnergies and SSE Renewables. Scots will keep on paying through the nose as our energy sources are used to make huge profits.

      The Great ScotWind Giveaway.

      “THE largest offshore wind farm in Scotland has started producing energy.

      The first turbine of a total of 114 on Seagreen wind farm, which lies 27 kilometres off the coast of Angus, was commissioned and connected to the power grid in the early hours of Monday morning.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20715324.seagreen-offshore-wind-farm-begins-energy-production%2F

    386. Republicofscotland says:

      Keep them coming James Che, at the very least its annoying the Britnat mouthpieces in here.

    387. Ruby says:

      Chas says:
      23 August, 2022 at 7:04 pm

      Dear Rev Stu

      Please forward 200.000 roubles or your site will continue to have access problems for readers.

      If you do not comply, even worse, Ruby, James Che and RoS will move to Bath and be your nest door neighbours!

      Chas says:
      23 August, 2022 at 8:27 pm

      Another grand post by che. Unfortunately I was unable to read all of it as I fell asleep a quarter of the way through.

      Change the record-it’s as boring today as it was the other 946 times!

      What annoys me about these trolls is that they come on here and make highly provocative posts like the above and then complain when you describe them as cunts.

      What’s your game Chas?

    388. Chas says:

      Ruby

      You remind me of a wee yappy dug.
      Totally harmless but unfortunately useless and a wee bit neurotic.
      If you can’t take it-don’t dish it out!
      I do not recall you ever calling me a cunt. I think you reserved that witty retort for Mr Ellis but, I could be wrong, as there are a whole raft of posts I have never bothered to read.

      RoS

      As a founder member of the BPHB you are obviously an expert at spotting the Britnat mouthpieces except………………you are not!
      Are you a BPHB codpiece?

      Isn’t it great fun swapping insults?

    389. Ruby says:

      What’s your game Chas?

    390. Chas says:

      Ruby

      Golf. What’s yours?

    391. Ruby says:

      Chas says:
      23 August, 2022 at 9:24 pm

      Ruby

      Golf. What’s yours?

      My game is spotting the Unionist troll.
      You make it very easy.
      Some of your mates make it slightly more difficult but in the end they always out themselves.

    392. McDuff says:

      Mark Boyle 1.12am

      old firm??????
      As for the rest of your gibberish i`d need a specialist to unravel that lot, i`m not trained to deal with the unhinged.

    393. Andy Ellis says:

      @Chas

      As you’ve found out, the hard of thinking in here tend to resort to othering those who disagree with them in lieu of any substantive argument. Alert readers will know that the reasons vary.

      Some are just obsessively fixated on one topic and can’t stop themselves posting their post over and over again. Others are so triggered by anyone pointing out the deficiencies in what passes for their argument that they actually think it’s appropriate to accuse other independence supporters of being yoons, laughably it’s generally from behind their anonymous profiles, because they lack the bottle to own their own poison. Then you have the barrel scraping of cunt callers, creepy as fuck stalkers and conspiracy theorising friends of Vlad.

      It’s self evident to anyone that remembers how this place used to be that those most responsible for the BTL comments being a shadow of their former selves are the low life scum othering folk on their own side as yoons.

    394. Ruby says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      23 August, 2022 at 8:09 am

      For the life of me I do not understand why anyone here responds to them – the Rev had everyone well told what to do with trolls.

      I don’t know what the Rev said about the trolls. Was it don’t feed the trolls?
      The problem with that is that the trolls are feeding one another as can be seen on this and other threads.

    395. Chas says:

      Ruby

      Isn’t it amazing that any one who is not a member of the patriotic BPHB is a Unionist troll!

      Rather than answer any of my numerous posts on the way forward for the Independence movement it is far simpler to dwell on 300 year old guff along with the others who are lacking critical thought.

      300 year old Treaties, Colonialism, Sovereignty etc etc will get us absolutely nowhere. The majority of the electorate are concerned with one thing-MONEY, especially the lack of it!

    396. Mark Boyle says:

      McDuff says:
      23 August, 2022 at 9:34 pm

      Mark Boyle 1.12am

      old firm??????
      As for the rest of your gibberish i`d need a specialist to unravel that lot, i`m not trained to deal with the unhinged.

      One severely doubts that you are even toilet trained …

    397. AberdeenPict says:

      Good talk tonight by Sarah Salyers at the Blue Lamp in Aberdeen. Hopefully should be a video of it on the SALVO site in the next couple of days.

    398. Ruby says:

      Chas says:
      23 August, 2022 at 9:46 pm

      Ruby

      Isn’t it amazing that any one who is not a member of the patriotic BPHB is a Unionist troll!

      I have no idea what you mean by the patriotic BPHB. I have asked you several times but you haven’t replied. What is it this patriotic BPHB believe that you don’t agree with?
      Is it independence?

    399. Christopher Pike says:

      Chas says:
      23 August, 2022 at 9:46 pm
      Ruby

      Isn’t it amazing that any one who is not a member of the patriotic BPHB is a Unionist troll!

      Rather than answer any of my numerous posts on the way forward for the Independence movement it is far simpler to dwell on 300 year old guff along with the others who are lacking critical thought.

      300 year old Treaties, Colonialism, Sovereignty etc etc will get us absolutely nowhere. The majority of the electorate are concerned with one thing-MONEY, especially the lack of it!

      ——————-

      Correct!

      All of the answers that YES failed to answer during the last referendum remain unanswered to this day. Alba are a non-event, they will trundle along before running out of steam. The party has a shit name and had a laughably pathetic launch, with one technical fault after another.

      The SNP-Green coalition represent the political face of the independence movement:

      Can’t run ferries

      Turned Glasgow into a (bigger) shit hole

      Decline in educational standards

      Decline in Healthcare

      Record drugs deaths

      Currently turning Edinburgh into a shit hole

      Obsessed with identity politics

      Massively over-represented by LGBTQ+++++ theory

      Hostile towards straight, white males

      Can’t run a census

      Missed opportunities with brexit and the weakest UK Government in modern history.

      Slap Gaelic onto everything despite 99% of Scots not understanding it and not giving a shit.

      Nicola Sturgeon, Shirley-Anne Somerville, Fiona Robertson, Patrick Harvey, Lorna Slater and Ross Greer. That’s the face of the independence movement – no thank you! At least Salmond ran a competent government.

    400. Alf Baird says:

      John Main @ 7:04 pm

      “HR is a colonialist oppressor”

      Well, yes, it is a colonial administration, sae nae sign on ony Scots Langage Act.

      ‘Manichaeism’, I think Fanon called it.

      In colonialism a wee pretendy naitional pairlament’s members cannae ser twa maisters; thay aye luve ane an laith the ither. So one must be sacrificed to the other, and that would be the Scots, and their culture, language, lands, seas and sovereignty, aw bocht an selt.

    401. Ruby says:

      Christopher Pike says:

      Correct!

      All of the answers that YES failed to answer during the last referendum remain unanswered to this day. Alba are a non-event, they will trundle along before running out of steam. The party has a shit name and had a laughably pathetic launch, with one technical fault after another. …………………………………..

      Are you pleased or disappointed by all these failures?
      What question are you particularly interested in?

      Polls are showing 50% in favour of independence which means 50% are not looking for answers to whatever questions you are referring to. Perhaps you & Chas are putting too much emphasis on these questions. Judging by a recent poll perhaps the YES campaign should concentrate on answers regarding EU membership. One question which I believe can be answered is voting NO will guarantee there will be no EU membership/b>

    402. Gregory Beekman says:

      Ruby @8.42 says

      One thing I am sure of is that transwomen are not women. Transwomen are transwomen.

      I wish them all the best in setting up their own sports, toilets, hospital wards, prisons, rape crisis centres, political parties etc etc.

      Yes, great point! Let them set up their own versions of these things – I’m sure we’d all support them in that.

      Perhaps we should ask Prince Harry to set up the Trans Games?

    403. Gregory Beekman says:

      PLEASE!

      Let’s NOT create a new White Paper for #indyref2

      Just slap ‘take back our historic control’ on the side of a bus, leave everything else undefined, and the voters will flock to us!!

    404. Scott says:

      Kevin Hague & Steve Sayers are currently limbering up to see who produces the world’s stupidest graph.

      Happy GERS day.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fpolitics%2F20718012.2022-gers-report-will-nonsense-last-ever-published%2F

    405. Ruby says:

      Cheers for link Scott

      In fact, it is just a work of fiction that describes a Tory vision of Scotland into which they can sink as many costs as possible so that they can make it appear that Scotland is a burden which they are, inexplicably, desperate to keep control of.

      Wasn’t the answer to this that they loved us & wanted us to stay, didn’t want us to become foreigners or to have to show their passport to enter iScotland or some such shit.

      Now there’s a new question:

      But in that case what we have to ask is why, after so long in office an SNP-led Scottish Government still produces this nonsense with which the Unionists seek to beat it each year?

      https://tinyurl.com/52nnenux

      Derek Mackay to launch pro-independence GERS report alternative
      15th January 2020

      What really happened to Derek Mackay?

    406. Republicofscotland says:

      On top of this a whopping £64 billion that Scotland has lost, which I posted yesterday.

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fawt51IWIAAP6Ic?format=png&name=900×900

      We have this.

      “SCOTLAND’s economy lost out on around £18 billion because of a “decade of lost growth” in the UK which has added to the impact of the cost-of-living crisis.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20718515.scotlands-economy-loses-billions-slow-uk-recovery-report-says%2F

      Being in this rancid union has cost Scots dearly, and it will continue to cost us, until we drop it like a hot potato.

    407. Republicofscotland says:

      This is what living in unions gets you these days, as people with life threatening cancers are more worried about heating and eating and where they’ll find the money from to pay energy bills this Winter than their illness.

      The Cost of Living in the Union Crisis is very bad for your health.

      “THOSE living with cancer in Scotland are more worried about the cost of living crisis than their illness, a new study has revealed.

      A majority of those with the condition in the country worry that the crisis is affecting their chances of successful treatment.

      The poll took into account 500 people living across the UK with cancer as part of a survey carried out for support charity Maggie’s.

      It discovered that 80% of those in the UK are worried about how the cost-of-living crisis may impact on their ability to travel to hospital appointments.

      The study showed over half (55%) of those surveyed believe they will find it difficult to pay for food this winter while 67% think heating bills could be an issue. ”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20733795.cancer-patients-worried-cost-living-crisis-diagnosis-new-study-shows%2F

    408. RobRoy says:

      “Alex Salmond: Nicola Sturgeon’s Indyref2 court case ‘foolish’ and referendums ‘never unlawful'”

      After giving a speech at the 54th International Conference of the Universitat Catalana d’Estiu, Mr Salmond took part in a Q&A session and was asked about the issue.

      He said: “My successor Nicola Sturgeon has announced there will be another referendum on October 19 next year. I’ve got it circled in my diary, and I’m very hopeful it will take place, but I anticipate one or two obstacles on the way to getting there.”

      He said it would be possible to make the UK Government back down and agree to a referendum, as it was in a much weaker position than it was a decade ago.

      He recommended “parliamentary intervention, popular agitation and diplomatic pressure” as the UK was in a huge economic crisis” and relatively friendless in Europe after Brexit..

      He went on: “Nicola Sturgeon, if the request [for an agreed vote], is refused is then going to go to the UK Supreme Court. I don’t agree with it.

      “One of the good things about studying other international examples is you learn lessons, from the Spanish Constitutional Court or the Canadian Supreme Court.

      “To go to the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, which is stationed two minutes’ walk from the Palace of Westminster, and say, ‘Can you help us?’ is a big ask.

      “So I think it’s foolish to go to the UK Supreme Court. I think the answer to asserting Scottish democracy lies in the political process in Scotland.”

      Asked about the status and legality of a referendum, Mr Salmond went on: “In my estimation a referendum can never be unlawful.

      “I mean, if you think about it, how can a consultation with the people, how can a wish to let the people speak, ever be considered unlawful?

      “I mean, to say it’s unlawful is an abuse of the Spanish language, the Catalan language, the English language or any language. It’s a nonsense.

      “Referendums are either agreed or they’re not agreed.

      “Now obviously it’s better to have a situation where a referendum is agreed because that means, once it’s voted on, it’s followed through. But the phrase unlawful is a phrase obviously used to discredit attempts by national movements to consult with the people.

      “In the 1770s the United Kingdom regarded the American colonists as unawlful, not just unlawful but as ("Tractor" - Ed)s because they were rebelling against King George III.

      “After the acceptance of defeat then they became lawful because the Americans had won.

      “Referendums, in my view, should never be described as unlawful.

      “Consulting the people, asserting democracy, is not unlawful.”

      https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20682904.alex-salmond-nicola-sturgeons-indyref2-court-case-foolish-referendums-never-unlawful/

    409. Chas says:

      Ruby

      The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade.

      Those individuals who see themselves as more ‘Scottish’ than anyone who does not share there warped views.
      Those who would take Independence tomorrow. ‘It will all be fine’ in their eyes and minds. They think that the SNP will simply walk away-job done.
      Those who will happily ignore the costs to present and future Scots in setting up a fully independent Scotland.
      Questions like the undernoted are basically irrelevant to them-
      What share of UK National Debt would accrue to Scotland?
      What currency would we use?
      How do we set up a Central Bank?
      How will an Independent Scotland borrow and at what interest rates?
      Who negotiates the ‘divvy up’ of UK assets and Liabilities?
      How will the defence of an Independent Scotland including the waters surrounding us be paid for?
      How will Pensions/Benefits/Welfare be paid? Will the rest of the UK will pay for Scottish Old Age Pensions forever under the current National Insurance Ponzi scheme?
      What will be the role of the current Westminster MP’s be in an Independent Scotland? Do they simply continue their ride on the gravy train in an Independent Scotland?
      Projected ‘financials’ for an Independent Scotland.
      How soon after Independence would a general election be held?

      Off the top of my head, those are simply some of the questions that need to be put before the electorate PRIOR to any future referendum. I would not expect definitive answers to all. It is unrealistic to expect the sane and educated within the electorate to vote for the unknown-however the BPHB would.

      You will note that there is one common theme running through the majority of questions that have to be answered-FINANCE/MONEY.
      The BPHB have no interest in this. They would prefer to go on and on about Colonialism, Sovereignty, 300 year old Treaties that 90% of Scots have no real interest in. Every day there are generally umpteen posts from ‘the faithful’ about how unfair it all is. Few of them rarely present any way forward and prefer to dwell in the past.

      The Tories in Westminster are rotten to the core and a change in PM is not going to change that. Are the SNP/Greens any better?

      The BPHB see ‘The English’ as the enemy. I have lived and worked in England and 90% are the same as you and me Ruby. They share the same aspirations and dreams. I rarely watch tv, other than some sport, but tuned in to bits of the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham. I watched Eilish McColgan in the latter part of her 10,000 metre race. She never has a sprint finish however, roared on by the mainly English crowd, she produced one to win gold. Could you honestly see the BPHB doing this for an English athlete in Glasgow or Edinburgh?

      I am an Independence supporter but loathe the SNP. Raw nationalism is a scourge and should be discouraged at every opportunity. The BPHB actively promote it. The Tory’s and the SNP/Greens are our real enemies.

      Change will ONLY come via the ballot box. The BPHB seem to think otherwise. How -I don’t really know. Neither do they!

      Apologies to all for the length of this post.

    410. Breastplate says:

      Chas

      “Those who will happily ignore the costs to present and future Scots in setting up a fully independent Scotland.”

      Your comment has too wee, too poor and too stupid written all over it.

      “Apologies to all for the length of this post.”

      Apology accepted, try not to let it happen again.

    411. Mark Boyle says:

      Breastplate

      24 August, 2022 at 11:11 am

      Chas

      “Those who will happily ignore the costs to present and future Scots in setting up a fully independent Scotland.”

      Your comment has too wee, too poor and too stupid written all over it.

      Your response to the standard checklist of the hurdles to independence has “too lazy and too thick” written all over it.

    412. Chas says:

      Breastplate

      Do you think that a fully Independent Scotland will cost next to nothing to set up? It will cost billions and where will that come from? Will Westminster pay for it? Are the SNP/Loons capable of doing it?

      I cannot be faulted for your inability to grasp where I am coming from. Nowhere did I state Scotland was too wee, too poor……….. The too stupid part maybe refers to you and those like you?

      Your application to join the BPHB has been confirmed subject to one remaining hurdle. Bore us all with a post about Treaties, Sovereignty and Colonialism and you will be accepted.

      Congratulations!

    413. Dan says:

      Chas says: at 10:44 am

      Those who will happily ignore the costs to present and future Scots in setting up a fully independent Scotland.

      I suppose all these “future Scots” will also require to be included in the voting franchise or we’ll be classed as regressive…
      And jist how long into the future will be deemed an acceptable duration for voting eligibility by the “international community”.
      If I can find a suitable partner whose up for it, I’m planning on having 2.7 million kids that support Scotland returning to self-governing status, so it’s only fair they get a say.

      And is there any chance unionists wanting all these answers about a self-governing Scotland could put forward a proposal and justification on the present and future costs Scots are and will be exposed to under continued London Rule seeing as that is going so fucking well for us all.

    414. robbo says:

      Chas @ 10.44am

      How money works for dummies. Best you get yersel over to Amazon and buy it.

      https://howmoneyworks.com/

      “Will Westminster pay for it”? Feck me that’s the best wan yit. LMAO

    415. Dan says:

      I can recall Don (of that one LSE blog link fame) stating btl that successful international investor Jim Rogers doesn’t have a clue, but Don failed to list his own credentials as to why his view was of more worth than Jim’s, so make of that what you will…

      https://twitter.com/freethinker2030/status/1224038013409419265

    416. James che says:

      Why does the the UK parliament THINK it holds a treaty with a NON- existent Scottish parliament?

      Because it is Stupid?
      Because it is a bit slow politically?
      Because it pretends?.
      Because it is spin doctoring?
      Because it is full of deceit?

      No need for Scotland to have a plebicite election.
      No need for to wait for a referendum.
      No need to ask the English Westminster supreme court.

      I am in total agreement with those here that believe there is no need to beholden, to be talking about an old Treaty that ended 300 years ago when the Scottish parliament closed its doors, at the request of the English parliament and therefore was no longer liable to uphold any article in the treaty of union,

    417. James che says:

      The MPs sitting in Westminster that live in Scotland are not there as members of the Scottish parliament,

      It ceased to exist in 1707. Ending the treaty and all promises made.

    418. James che says:

      It is hilarious to think that the 1707 English parliament and monarch ended the 1707 treaty of union with the Scottish parliament,
      by requesting the Scottish parliament to cease existence as a Scottish parliament,

      Hence NO 1707 treaty with the Scottish parliament,

    419. James che says:

      Republicofscotland.
      When a new form of governance is set up in Scotland remember that the word Citizen is SUBJECTIVE for government purposes.

      The word PEOPLE must always be used as a replacement,

    420. James says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      23 August, 2022 at 8:33 pm
      “Keep them coming James Che, at the very least its annoying the Britnat mouthpieces in here”.

      Heah, heah! It’s their way or no way.

    421. Breastplate says:

      Mark Boyle

      “Your response to the standard checklist of the hurdles to independence has “too lazy and too thick” written all over it.”

      The standard checklist of answerable questions (those that don’t entail the services of a soothsayer) have been answered on numerous occasions over the years.

      Perhaps if you were willing to use your observational skills, you would have noticed.

      I’m sorry if I’ve offended your sensibilities when dismissing the inane post by your friend.

    422. James che says:

      Why does Scotland believe it holds a treaty of union with a UK parliament or the British parliament?
      After all SCOTLAND only signed a treaty with the 1707 English parliament.

    423. John Main says:

      @Ruby says:23 August, 2022 at 8:47 pm

      “What annoys me about these trolls is that they come on here”

      Readers who appreciate irony will be having a quiet chuckle at the spectacle of Ruby, named after a character appearing in many of Terry Pratchett’s Discworld books, complaining about trolls.

      Add to pure comedy gold the new concept of pure irony gold.

    424. James che says:

      Breastplate.

      Do you not think that when the 1707 English parliament cancelled its own treaty with the Scottish parliament by asking it to cease to exist, the English parliament has the ” to lazy, to thick and to greedy” for their own future good written all over it?

    425. Ruby says:

      Chas says:
      24 August, 2022 at 10:44 am

      Ruby

      The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade.
      Apologies to all for the length of this post.

      Oh fuck Chas you’ve gone and broken my BNTCD
      The reading went right off the scale and then it blew up!

    426. James che says:

      James.

      😉

    427. John Main says:

      @ Chas says:24 August, 2022 at 10:44 am

      “How will Pensions/Benefits/Welfare be paid? Will the rest of the UK will pay for Scottish Old Age Pensions forever under the current National Insurance Ponzi scheme?”

      Rev Stu has already answered this to my satisfaction. Pension liabilities post-Indy remain with the rUK. Those already retired have nothing to fear. Those still working will, on retirement, receive pro-rata part payment from rUK and (assuming the Scottish government can run a social security system better than it can build ferries) part payment from Scotland.

      As you say, it is a Ponzi scheme masquerading as an insurance scheme. Thus, the liability owed to those who have paid into it, does not simply evaporate because those people are now living “abroad”.

      If you think about it, rUK will jump at the chance to just pay pensions to Scots. In return, they will be shot of the far greater costs of geriatric health and social care.

      Two obvious considerations stand out:

      1) To avoid a “pensions gap”, the iScotland system has to be fully working on Day 1 of Indy. Maybes somebody should ask how the plans are progressing?

      2) The iScotland currency is of great concern to Scots pensioners. rUK will pay pensions in pounds sterling. For these to be converted to Euros or Merks, the benign, friendly financial markets will undoubtedly extract a high price.

      The rest of your questions are good ones though!

    428. John Main says:

      Remarkably quiet from our resident lovers of freedom, sovereignty and self-determination on here, considering the significance of today’s date. Here’s a wee taster of what Indy, freedom, sovereignty, etc. should look like:

      “We got our official independence in 1991 — more than 90% of people voted for it,” Hanna Shelest, Director of Security Programmes at the Foreign Policy Council’s Uk rainian Prism, tells me. “But without any struggle, there was little appreciation of what it really meant. Since February, there is almost no one who does not understand.”

      Independence has become for Uk rainians about more than just protecting their land. It is about self-identification. It is no longer just a political act. It is a historical return to their roots, which were repressed for so long. As Shelest says: “Independence is also now psychological — a feeling that we are different from modern-day Russ ians who consider themselves post-Sov iet, whereas we consider ourselves Western and concerned with the future not the past. We are ready to die to escape from a despot rather than worship him.”

      https://unherd.com/2022/08/why-put in-cant-capture-kher son/

      [remove spaces in link above]

    429. James che says:

      The fact that the Scottish parliament ceased to exist (as in it “closed its doors” ) at the request of the English parliament does not mean we cannot open a new Scottish sovereign peoples government of our own in Scotland,
      We just avoid the word parliament, so this has no connection to 1707,

      Having having had our old parliament cancelled and thus cancelling the treaty of the union,

      We are left with many options as to choosing a new government.
      With the Scottish claim of right and sovereignty still intact.

      The laws of a bilateral UK parliament, cannot prevent this, as Scotland did not make a 1707 treaty of union with the British parliament nor with the later uk parliament,
      And the 1707 Scottish parliament that is no longer in existence, cannot be found liable.

      They can try sue their own branch office, “The Devolved Government” but this is not the same Scottish parliament of 1707.

    430. Republicofscotland says:

      Here the king of dodging VONC’s John Swinney acknowledges the GERS figures, when they’ve already been debunked on several occasions, why is Swinney acknowledging these lies.

      I recall years back that the SNP before they became the NuSNP were going to publish figures to counter the GERS nonsense which the Britnat media loves to report on from all angles.

      The SNP acknowledging these unionist lies instead of debunking them as they should is another sign (one of many) that the supposedly party for independence is no longer an indy party.

      The Alba party is now the only REAL party of Scottish independence, today the Alba party is calling for a minimum wage of £15 PH.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20738439.uk-financial-future-not-positive-says-deputy-fm-gers-published%2F

    431. Ruby says:

      The BNTs don’t half post some shit.

      Everyone knows that I was named after a Rolling Stones Song.

      I’m quite proud of that.

      I would be pretty ashamed if I were named after a serial killer, the dumbest king of England, the poor sod who inspired the name of the letter which basically tells the recipient to fuck off, someone who pays prostitutes for sex, the guy who shagged Edwina Currie & somewhere folk go for a poo.

    432. Republicofscotland says:

      This is farcical from (Ian Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford, Blackford the spineless and gutless trougher “Demands” the Tories freeze fuel prices, as if the nasty Tories will pay any heed to what this little rotund trougher has to say.

      Blackford and his troughing self-serving SNP MPs did sweet f*ck all when Brexit brought the house down to save Scotland from this vile union. We no longer believe his or his MPs tired old rhetoric

      Blackford and his clique at Westminster have been found out for what they really are and whose interests they have at heart and its not Scots.

      It time for the Alba party to move up, and for the NuSNP to move down.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20737308.ian-blackford-writes-boris-johnson-demanding-action-taken-rising-bills%2F

    433. Republicofscotland says:

      This is good news, and it will irk a few in here good, I just hope the Queen of F*ck-ups SAS doesn’t f*ck this right up.

      “A CONSULTATION to ensure the long-term growth of Gaelic and Scots has been launched by the Scottish Government.

      Views are being sought on the most effective ways to raise the profile of the Scots language, as well as a new strategic approach to Gaelic medium education (GME).

      The creation of a designated Gaelic speaking area, known as a Gaidhealtachd will also be assessed.

      It will also ensure the Bord Na Gaidhlig – the principal public body promoting Gaelic in Scotland – is operating effectively.

      Education Secretary Shirley-Anne Somerville said the consultation will help build on an already growing community of Gaelic and Scots speakers.

      Some 57,375 people in Scotland speak Gaelic, while 87,100 have some of the language skills, according to the 2011 census.

      Meanwhile, more than 1.5 million people identified themselves as Scots speakers.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20722028.consultation-launched-ensure-long-term-growth-scots-gaelic%2F

    434. Republicofscotland says:

      Its not just the British state broadcaster that doesn’t want to report on the disaster of Brexit that just keeps on giving, or more like taking away, its all the Britnat media, they don’t want Joe Bloggs on the street knowing just how bad Brexit was and how bad its will continue to be for UK citizens.

      Why any Scots would want to remain in this dreadful union that just keeps damaging Scotland’s economy, and stealing its assets is beyond me.

      “FORMER BBC journalist Jon Sopel has said the BBC “ducked” reporting on the full consequences of Brexit after it was accused of having a bias in favour of the UK staying in the EU.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20684209.jon-sopel-says-bbc-ducked-reporting-full-impacts-brexit%2F

    435. John Main says:

      Cracker of an article:

      http://robinmcalpine.org/its-code-red-for-scottish-independence/

      Spoiler alert: Don’t read if you are one of the “just have faith” brigade.

    436. James che says:

      Republicofscotland .

      Good news that Scottish language is being recognised,
      I bet their is not an accurate word for trans- women in the Old Scots ethic languages.

      Now we need the Scottish government to recognise that the kilt is also Scotland national dress, instead of displaying racism and allowing schools to prohibits showing images of people in kilts.

    437. Ruby says:

      RobRoy says:
      24 August, 2022 at 10:12 am

      “Alex Salmond: Nicola Sturgeon’s Indyref2 court case ‘foolish’ and referendums ‘never unlawful’”

      After giving a speech at the 54th International Conference of the Universitat Catalana d’Estiu, Mr Salmond took part in a Q&A session and was asked about the issue.

      Thanks Rob your post inspired me to search for the video.

      Here it is:

      https://tinyurl.com/5n8f8xsy
      FF to 31.12.

    438. John Main says:

      @ Republicofscotland says:24 August, 2022 at 2:50 pm

      “BBC … accused of having a bias in favour of the UK staying in the EU.”

      No doubt about that, although to be fair to the BBC, every fucking establishment, union, company, organisation, charity, hell, even Saint Obama himself, had the same bias.

      Yet still the UK voted for offski.

      Makes you think. Is BBC and MSM bias against Indy really the overwhelmingly unstoppable force the movement claims it to be?

    439. John Main says:

      @ Ruby says:24 August, 2022 at 2:29 pm

      “Everyone knows that I was named after a Rolling Stones Song.”

      Tell it to Terry P, not us.

      Haud oan though, he’s deid. Nobody is going to re-write the books.

      Looks like you’re stuck with the Discworld connection, Ruby. Soz.

    440. Ruby says:

      Who/what are the ‘Just have faith’ Brigade?

    441. James che says:

      It was interesting reading Mr Watts book on “Celtic Scotland” languages.

      The Scots, irish and welsh are very similar of old tongue, and can converse with each other,

      However I noted the north east of Scotland as having a slightly different base in his book, this area was covered by picts originally and covers quite a large area north east of the grampians,

      Modern day new Scot like to call this Doric, a mixture of Scots/ english. Or slang English,
      However you find many words, ( nearly lost ) in this old north east language that do not have any relation to english,

      In Rabbie Burn or in old poetry and bothy ballads we find words being adapted to english form for the sake of under standing them,
      Often this transforms the original northeast Scots word to english dictionary Scots,

      Having been raised and married into families that have played music, and enjoyed an interest in the differences of and in Scots language, I find it a shame that one half of Scotlands old languages is being translated as slang english,

    442. Mark Boyle says:

      Breastplate says:
      24 August, 2022 at 1:38 pm

      Mark Boyle

      “Your response to the standard checklist of the hurdles to independence has “too lazy and too thick” written all over it.”

      The standard checklist of answerable questions (those that don’t entail the services of a soothsayer) have been answered on numerous occasions over the years.

      Perhaps if you were willing to use your observational skills, you would have noticed.

      Yeah, and in case you hadn’t noticed champ, they were sent back with WRONG ANSWER written next to them by the ultimate arbiters of who governs – the electorate.

      Perhaps if you were willing to come off the “Bonnie Wee Jeanie McColl” supermarket brand blended whisky and Kool Aid, you would have noticed?

    443. Roger says:

      See this? Another vulnerable person has had their life utterly ruined. She’s suing the quack involved and I hope she ruins him – but maybe the quacks will close ranks to try hide the consequences of the horrors they caused.

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11139585/Sydney-woman-transitioned-man-SUES-psychiatrist-negligence.html </a?

    444. Breastplate says:

      Mark Boyle,

      “Yeah, and in case you hadn’t noticed champ, they were sent back with WRONG ANSWER written next to them by the ultimate arbiters of who governs – the electorate.”

      If you believe the electorate already know the correct answer then why are you asking the question?

      There’s nothing wrong with being ignorant, however, there’s nothing right with being wilfully ignorant.

      But wait, perhaps you’re correct and I’m wrong to think little of you, please explain what was wrong with the answers.

    445. Gregory Beekman says:

      James che says: @3:18

      It was interesting reading Mr Watts book on “Celtic Scotland” languages.

      I can’t find the book – it sounds really interesting. Is it a recent publication or older?

      Do you have an ISBN or similar for it?

      Thanks.

    446. Ruby says:

      Have you noticed how much the BritNat trolls want to create divisions?

      They have already divided people into ‘The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade’ ‘The Just Have Faith Brigade’ ‘The Moonhowlers’ The Fringe Nutters and them.

    447. Republicofscotland says:

      Ah, where do I normally here this explanation on identity, usually its wielded by die-hard unionists who want to remain in the union, I’m definitely not surprised that the betrayer of Scots indentifies herself in this way.

      “NICOLA Sturgeon has said she identifies as both Scottish and British.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20741040.nicola-sturgeon-i-consider-british-well-scottish%2F

    448. Ruby says:

      Alex Salmond is very interesting. I can listen to him for hours which I did during the Holyrood Enquiry.

      Nicola Sturgeon on the other I want to tell to shut up before she even opens her mouth.

      I can’t listen to Nicola Sturgeon.

      Alex Salmond makes lots of very interesting points in his talk from the Catalan university.

    449. auld highlander says:

      Ruby. Don’t reply to the trolls as they just keep replying to wind you up and clutter the place deliberately with endless pish.

    450. Republicofscotland says:

      “Have you noticed how much the BritNat trolls want to create divisions”

      Ruby.

      That’s their job, and to back each and their comments as well.

      On your Salmond comment, he has a wealth of information on Scottish history and foreign affairs, you never ever hear Sturgeon the betrayer quote Scottish history, in nastiness she well surpasses him, but as a statesperson she couldn’t lace Salmond’s boots.

    451. Gregory Beekman says:

      AN OPEN LETTER TO REVEREND STUART CAMPBELL

      Dear Rev Stu,

      Where is your GERS article?

      Come on, it’s as traditional as Halloween – you’ve got to do one, even if it’s just to send us to a previous article!

      We want what we like!!

      Thanks in advance,

      Greg!

    452. Andy Ellis says:

      Have you noticed how the nativists, Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade and Brigadoon Front want to create divisions?

      They’ve already divided anyone who disagrees with their woo-woo in to yoons, britnats, Sturgeonista stooges, 77th Brigade operatives, not “real” nationalists, or just cunts.

      It appears to be their job. That and backing each other up in their (frequently) endless, incoherent and stream of consciousness comments.

    453. stuart mctavish says:

      Ruby @2:57

      Nice one.

      Deliberately taking the discussion around 1hr 58 out of context to focus on talk of nationalist MPs from Scotland maybe holding the balance of power in Westminster in couple of years (ie after the defacto GE/ referendum), can anyone expand as to how that scenario might better the preferred option of those of us living in cloud cuckoo land (or France for that matter)* who still wake up wondering why the treaty wasn’t revoked yesterday 🙂

      * particularly if the steps taken to get to that position (ie failure to hold, win or act upon indyref2 coupled with failure to agree, win or act upon the defacto referendum) tended to betray favour for the status quo regardless..

    454. George Ferguson says:

      @John Main 2:51pm
      Agreed cracking article. Code Red indeed.
      A clarification on the SNP view of Nationalisation of Energy. The FM has stated recently that the option should be on the table for the UK Government to Nationalise. Let’s go back to the privatisation of Scottish Hydro Electric, Scottish Power and Scottish Gas and try to put a number on that proposal. Very difficult to be precise but looking at the Market Capitalisation of the derivative and component parts because of acquisition and the consolidation of former RECS, divestment etc. For example recently SSE divestment of their supply business to OVO. So for Scotland to get back to the vertical integration of Generation, Transmission, Distribution and Supply for all of its assets for electricity and gas my estimate is 80 billion pounds. What a wheeze, costs the UK Government 80 billion and Scotland gets the assets after an Independence Referendum. More cloud cuckoo policies by the SNP or a deft touch?

    455. Andy Ellis says:

      @James Che 3.18 pm

      The Scots, irish and welsh are very similar of old tongue, and can converse with each other,…

      Scots Gaelic and Irish are mutually comprehensible, but Goidelic languages (Irish, Scots Gaelic and Manx) and Brythonic languages like Welsh, Cornish and Breton aren’t. Either you got it wrong or Mr Watts did.

      The Picts probably spoke a brythonic language, and much of the southern lowlands of Scotland was inhabited by Brittonic tribes. Y Gododdin is probably the most famous medieval Welsh poem and deals with a tribe from southern Scotland fighting the Angles of Deira and Bernicia in the North East of England. They rode to battle from Edinburgh to what is now Catterick in Yorkshire.

    456. Dan says:

      @ Gregory Beekman

      The environmental impact of servers using leccy power to host yet another GERS related article might bring on climate armageddon, so maybe best to just link bank to previous article.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-six-key-facts-about-gers/

    457. Gregory Beekman says:

      Dan @5:27

      😂😂😂

      If we’re all going to burn anyway, may as well make the last straw a final GERS-debunker article – what a great way to go!!! 😃

    458. Ruby says:

      auld highlander says:
      24 August, 2022 at 4:45 pm

      Ruby. Don’t reply to the trolls as they just keep replying to wind you up and clutter the place deliberately with endless pish.

      It doesn’t make any difference if you feed the trolls or don’t feed the trolls cos the trolls start feeding one another.

      I’ll try not to feed the trolls although sometimes feeding them exposes them for what are.

    459. Ruby says:

      Ooops.

      I’ll try not to feed the trolls although sometimes feeding them exposes them for what they are.

    460. Mark Boyle says:

      Breastplate says:
      24 August, 2022 at 4:05 pm

      Mark Boyle,

      “Yeah, and in case you hadn’t noticed champ, they were sent back with WRONG ANSWER written next to them by the ultimate arbiters of who governs – the electorate.”

      If you believe the electorate already know the correct answer then why are you asking the question?

      Where did I say I believe the electorate knew the correct answer?

      What I said was they are the ultimate arbiters – they get to decide what is “truth” or not by the power of their vote – rightly or wrongly, in much the same way a judge or jury gets to decide on the basic of the evidence presented to them, which may not necessarily the full and unvarnished truth of the matter.

      Deciding what is the correct answer is not – repeat, not – the same thing as knowing the correct answer. As the late Jim Mitchell long pointed out, “never underestimate the stupidity of the general public, for they will break your heart time and time again.”

      It’s your lamentable ability to grasp such subtlties that you need to get a grip of.

      Respond to what is actually said, not what you wish someone to have said.

    461. Dan says:

      @ Greg @5.42pm

      TBH I do have reservations that my earlier suggested plan to father 2.7 million pro-indy voting kids to free Scotland from London Rule could tip the balance of unsustainable energy consumption over the edge and cause planet meltdown.

      2.45mins of Doug Stanhope on climate change (NSFW or prudes as contains fucking swearing)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2o7y_b04YE

      In an attempt to carbon offset my planned procreation antics, I did use lime mortar mix today rather than cement, so whoever works on my house in a hundred or so years can reuse the natural stone.

    462. Tommo says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      24 August, 2022 at 5:16 pm
      @James Che 3.18 pm

      “The Scots, irish and welsh are very similar of old tongue, and can converse with each other,…
      Andy Ellis-
      Scots Gaelic and Irish are mutually comprehensible, but Goidelic languages (Irish, Scots Gaelic and Manx) and Brythonic languages like Welsh, Cornish and Breton aren’t. Either you got it wrong or Mr Watts did.”

      As a Welsh speaker I can assure you that Irish Gaelic is a closed book to me-sadly as I love the sound and sometimes tune into RTE in the car to avoid the BBC tedium and visit the Gaeltacht regularly
      Scots Gaelic likewise is closed to me though my mother spoke some in her youth
      The problems start when kids are educated solely in the language- fine if youre bright, well-connected and attain either academic or local government type posts; not so good if you need or want to move away-or compete

    463. Ruby says:

      The Robin MacAlpine article is just yet another of these wake up calls telling us the leadership is the problem.

      No shit Sherlock!

      What is missing from the article what we are supposed to do.

    464. Ruby says:

      Tommo says:

      As a Welsh speaker I can assure you that Irish Gaelic is a closed book to me-sadly as I love the sound and sometimes tune into RTE in the car to avoid the BBC tedium and visit the Gaeltacht regularly
      Scots Gaelic likewise is closed to me though my mother spoke some in her youth

      I have no idea what James Che’s comment means. No interest in joining in that particular debate.

      I do find what you said about enjoying the sound of a language very interesting.

      Do you reckon language is like music? If you learn the music of the language say French for example you know all the sounds but not necessarily the meaning of the words. So if a German word was introduced into the dialogue it would sound off key.

      So although you don’t understand Gaelic by listening you are learning the music of the language.

      Does that make any sense?

      I love Welsh music Karl Jenkins’ Benedictus puts me into a trance.

      Here it is:

      https://tinyurl.com/2p94zy73

      Beautiful.

    465. RobRoy says:

      “Data from the national statisticians for the UK suggests during the past 10 weeks the number has been 12% higher than would have been expected, based on the average for previous years.”

      https://www.bbc.com/news/health-62648951

      In terms of causes, there’s lots of possibilities but the vaccines aren’t to blame and aren’t even worth considering as a possibility, despite the fact that Pfizer’s own documents (that nobody was supposed to see for 75 years) revealed a variety of serious side effects.

      https://www.westernstandard.news/news/pfizer-papers-covid-vax-had-thousands-of-injuries-early-on/article_335204a0-f2f9-58e2-9ebc-088495ddc538.html

    466. Ruby says:

      OMG! Here’s the 2CELLOS doing Benedictus

      https://tinyurl.com/ymfc4st4

    467. Doug says:

      I think it can be fairly argued that brexit happened because the majority of English people ignored the intellectual pros and cons and voted with their gut. Dunkirk, battle of britain, Agincourt, froggies, huns and all that… it worked for those who wanted to get out of the EU.

      Frankly I wouldn’t object to a bit of gut voting if it meant an end to the disgusting union with England.

      Sturgeon wants independence to happen [I think she does anyway] by charming the angels to come down from heaven to reward the people of Scotland for all their politically correct obedience and kumbaya niceness. I think she’d sacrifice our independence to keep her pc pomposity intact.

      Get your gut out and vote!

    468. Chas says:

      The definition of a Troll (according to the dreamers and fantasists).

      An individual who does not subscribe to the views of the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade. The fact that they may be sane and educated is irrelevant.

      For those who are unsure, today is the 24th August 2022.

    469. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If the Glasgow refuse collection is disrupted by strike action (from tomorrow until Sep 1st and then again from Sept 7-10th) then other local authority workers will surely follow.

      Public support for the rail workers has been strong, but how long will it last when we’re up to our oxters in our own refuse? For those of a certain age, the mantras from each ‘side’ are well-known and are coming over the hill.

      But if the workers are striking for, let’s say, 10 or even 15% raises (and I don’t know the detail), what’s the point when inflation is projected to hit anything between 15-20%? Even if they get their demands, what happens six months from now? Do they have to go on strike again?

      We’re being played.

      Please listen to the first segment of today’s edition of UK Column News. (The first 16 minutes or so) The obvious problem is laid out in easy-to-understand terms which never *ever* make it onto mainstream news.

      As it happens, Glasgow is name-checked by Alex Thomson because the UKC did a couple of gigs in Scotland recently. UKC is not supportive of Scottish independence (surprise surprise!) but Thomson pays credit to Glasgow as a bastion of ‘old-style’ socialism in which strong unions played such a vital role. There is an admission that strong union leaders didn’t always get it right but…

      And there’s the rub.

      If a strongly anti-independence alternative media outlet can openly accept that the most politically active Scots (who just happen to be majority pro-indy) are, on this occasion, ‘right’, then we are duty-bound to listen to what they’re saying. But we can’t and shouldn’t cherry-pick – it’s either a reliable source of factual information or it isn’t. (Like this place, right?)

      UKC has been at the forefront in exposing the disgraceful behaviour of UK govt agencies (esp the MHRA) in explaining/exposing the life-changing side-effects of the various ‘vaccines’ we’ve all been hammered into accepting (or vilified/ostracized if we don’t). They’ve also been on the blue and yellow ‘war’ from the outset and have monitored the propaganda with the same kind of attention to detail that this place applied to developments in the run-up to 2014 and since.

      Another thing worth noting is that UKC has been paying close attention to the whole TRA ‘issue’ – Monday’s edition featured the news about yon ‘Alexandria’ character and one could be forgiven for thinking that the piece was based on the original Wings article.

      The point I’m trying to get across is this: if we can’t discuss all of the things which the UKC can, there’s no way we can even begin to view things on a similarly broad canvas. We are primarily concerned with Scottish independence, aye, but that hasn’t prevented Rev Stu from focussing on other issues over the years as and when he felt they were important. (Remember the pre-Sevco years, when he did a lot on White, Murray, Green, the EBTs etc? A lot of regulars didn’t like that one bit. And when he first started on about TRAs etc there was much bemusement – ‘WTF have these weirdos got to do with independence?’)

      (It suits some folk to narrow Wings discourse to this or that debating point *if* they believe they have the whip hand and can endlessly bat away any and all criticism. Indulging them only permits them to dismiss (as ‘conspiracy’) any discussion which shifts attention away from the balls they’re juggling.)

      https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/uk-column-news-24th-august-2022

    470. George Ferguson says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 8:15pm
      I would agree that Stu has allowed a diverse range of topics. Years ago, I remember on a Saturday there was some dissent about the discussion being about fitba. He batted it away saying we will get back to the Independence discussion later. There are other things in life that are important to some. Total tolerance. I will give you an update on medical matters. The HSE have issue an improvement notice on NHS Orkney, the Procurator Fiscal is investigating a avoidable death in Glasgow, the Royal College of Emergency Medicine has declared that 30 patients in Scotland a week are being harmed or die because of A and E delays bobbling around 65% within 4 hours, SNHS staff are being assaulted etc. And this after we killed 2000+ old people by sending them to Care Homes without a Covid test. Plus the 25000 at least of additional avoidable deaths because of lockdowns. Never mind the Scottish economy. But we have a selfie of the FM with Basil Brush.. Boom Boom.

    471. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @George Ferguson –

      Have just been reading bits and bobs via the Twitter about her saying in interview with Graham Spiers (at the Festival again?) that she feels ‘British’ etc.

      I thought at first it was a wind-up but it seems not.

      🙁

    472. stuart mctavish says:

      trolls?

      NS’s subliminal message to vote alba (or even green) 1 & 2 because SNP is being run by a British nationalist is certainly an intriguing one – but still not nearly as bizarre as the president of France lamenting (or heralding?) the end of abundance given his own countrymen’s ability to produce more than could be eaten since long before the most excellent suggestion from Marie Antoinette.

    473. George Ferguson says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 8:45pm
      Yeah we have multiple crisis and yet Nicola has 3 fringe events. People are dying because of the inaction of the Scottish Government and you don’t dismiss the Royal College of Emergency Medicine. And where is the Health Secretary Humza Yousaf? Warming his tootsies in the Stannergate amongst the sewage. It’s not only Jim Sillars that is in despair. Boat number 10 your time is up, Nicola come in and go away. And where is the Presiding Officer? On holidays until September 4th. Not good enough.

    474. Scott says:

      Trolls?

      A recent study has shown that online trolls have a greater interest in themes of fantasy (sci-fi/’magic’/mythology) than the population at large…which makes them a bunch of boring cunts on two fronts.

    475. Mark Boyle says:

      Doug says:
      24 August, 2022 at 7:21 pm

      I think it can be fairly argued that brexit happened because the majority of English people ignored the intellectual pros and cons and voted with their gut. Dunkirk, battle of britain, Agincourt, froggies, huns and all that… it worked for those who wanted to get out of the EU.

      The majority of English voted for Brexit because contrary to the garbage the Guardian classes were spouting in a style ironically similar to Thatcher and Major’s old “trickle down” bullshit, the EU had done nothing or even outright harmed them. All this utter shite about EU money “regenerating poor” areas fooled no one when places like the North East and the ex-mining areas of Yorkshire were still as big a load of Job Free Zones as they had been since the late 1980s – in some cases even worse. It was about much more than some “One World Cup And Two World Wars” mentality.

      For example, areas like Hull, Felixstowe, etc. which had saw the fishing industry devestated by quotas to save fishing stocks, and then saw Spanish trawlers coming up to trawl those very areas where everyone was supposed to be laying off the fishing to allow the stocks to “recover”. No point telling them that far more damage was being done by Russian factory ships, or that much of the damage to the industry was done long before the non-EU Icelandics won the Cod War (and arguably saved the Atlantic Cod from complete extinction, but that’s another topic), or by the dreadful working practices of an industry that put itself out of business.

      Then there’s the whines about going to and from Europe for holidays or business travel now being “more convenient”. Did they ever stop to think how much of a red rag such comments were to people in hand to mouth existences on minimum wage cleaning or care work jobs whose idea of a holiday was a weekend at Scarborough every second year at best because that was all they could afford, not least of all because their wages had been driven down in real terms from smug exploitative working practices encouraged by a glut of cheap labour for semi-skilled jobs.

      It’s easy to sneer – and plenty of the Guardianista classes did – that maybe had they worked harder at school they would have been able to tackle “better” work. To do was was to insultingly miss the point – it was their jobs, and the notion that they should suffer even more misery in their lives just so those better off than them could have an even easier time of things by artificially flooding the job market with those happy to do subsistence wage work (in some cases for tax dodging “entrepreneurs” …) … how would you feel?

      I’ll tell you how you’d feel: you’d think stuff “the greater good” when “the greater good” never seems to include yourself. It was no coincidence in the 2017 general election TV debate that Sturgeon plus the representatives from the LibDems, Labour, Plaid Cymru and the Greens all chastised the UKIP rep as the paragon of all evil, only for Jeremy Corbyn to say as the last speaker that actually he sympathised entirely with those who felt forced to vote UKIP because they seemed to be the only ones that cared less about an underclass of people Westminster – never mind the EU – had long left behind.

      End result, abrupt poll jump and only 2000 votes short across ten constituencies from ousting Tinfoil Theresa – literally a repeat of Thatcher’s “swamping” TV interview remarks in 1977 finishing the NF and sealing Labour’s doom.

      As has been mentioned before in other contexts, when putting food on your table and keeping a roof over your head seems an increasing day to day struggle, people do not care two hoots for people lecturing them they’re be “better off” in a system that has worked against them and their children all their lives. It’s the same fact Scottish nationalists need to remind themselves of daily is the primary motivator behind all those they still need to get in order to get that 50% plus one to get over the winning line to independence.

    476. Andy Ellis says:

      The point I’m trying to get across is this: if we can’t discuss all of the things which the UKC can, there’s no way we can even begin to view things on a similarly broad canvas. ……

      (It suits some folk to narrow Wings discourse to this or that debating point *if* they believe they have the whip hand and can endlessly bat away any and all criticism. Indulging them only permits them to dismiss (as ‘conspiracy’) any discussion which shifts attention away from the balls they’re juggling.)

      Really? Rev Stu is usually pretty forgiving, indeed some would say generous to a fault as experience getting rid of the skid mark that was Cameron Brodie amply testifies. We all know he can lose patience sometimes, as experience with the debates around “Country 404” recently shows, but where else is moderation policy so open?

      Stu hasn’t silenced folk discussing most other topics from what I recollect. Indeed I seem to recall that in his original rubbishing on twitter of the nativists plans for franchise restriction he said the opposite:

      And stop whining that by saying this I’m trying to “shut down debate”. I have no power and no desire to stop you debating it. You can debate it all you want. I’m not reporting you to Twitter or the police. I’m just not interested.

      So where does this false narrative come from that certain topics are tabu or can’t be discussed on a broad canvas? Has anyone stopped folk in here promoting nativism, or the “Scotland as colony” narrative? How about covidiocy or the truly endless debates about the Treaties of Union? Or cunning plans for indy?

      We know Stu’s views on some of these issues, though I don’t know what he thinks about others. I haven’t seen him or anyone else suggesting they are off the table for discussion though: indeed, it appears quite the opposite. Your assertion that “some folk” (who exactly, and how are they doing it?) are trying to narrow discourse just looks like special pleading, or a lame attempt to explain why the majority of folk see through fringe nutters and conspiracy theorising.

      Note, please that the mainstream generally don’t want to close down such discussion or drive it underground, however much you prefer to bleat about how “doon hauden” tin foil hat wearers are. Far better for woo-woo to be exposed in the full light of reason: all the better for us to point and laugh.

      Fuck knows, the way things are going we need to get our jollies anywhere we can these days.

    477. John Main says:

      @Scott says:24 August, 2022 at 9:02 pm

      “themes of fantasy (sci-fi/’magic’/mythology)”

      Hey Scott,

      sci-fi (science fiction) is not a sub-branch of fantasy. You must be thinking of science-fantasy, which most definitely is.

      Happy to help.

    478. Scott says:

      John Main says:
      24 August, 2022 at 9:55 pm

      Hey Scott,

      sci-fi (science fiction) is not a sub-branch of fantasy.

      Why are all the sci-fi books in the library in the same section as all the rest of the made up shit?

      Beam the answer up to the usual address, for a red jumper the chance to win.

    479. John Main says:

      @Mark Boyle says:24 August, 2022 at 9:25 pm

      Top post.

      “It’s the same fact Scottish nationalists need to remind themselves of daily is the primary motivator behind all those they still need to get in order to get that 50% plus one to get over the winning line to independence.”

      You can tell them until you are blue in the face.

      Ten minutes later, along comes another post about 1707, the Declaration of Arbroath, or how somebody’s great-great-great-great granny got her chickens thieved by the redcoats.

    480. Republicofscotland says:

      Scott @9.02pm.

      Oh and don’t forget they like backslapping each other on their comments.

    481. John Main says:

      @Scott says:24 August, 2022 at 10:05 pm

      “Why are all the sci-fi books in the library in the same section as all the rest of the made up shit?”

      Dunno Scott.

      But now, thanks to me, you can set them straight.

      Imagine the look of surprise on their faces when you finally turn out to be right about something.

    482. Robert Hughes says:

      Ian B @ 8.15 .

      Excellent post mon frere 🙂

    483. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ellis (9.37) –

      Your unsolicited boilerplate response is only worth noting for that disgusting throwaway description of Cameron B. Brodie.

      He was well known to many of us who met him in person and enjoyed his company. He was, by his own admission, unwell.

      Shame on you.

    484. Ruby says:

      The English electorate are a mystery.

      Who knows why they voted for Brexit why they vote Tory and why they are so keen for Scotland to remain in the Union.

      It’s just a bloody shame that like it or lump it we have to go along with whatever bonkers decisions they make.

    485. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ellis –

      And if you dare, open this tweet, then contact the author to tell her that she is a ‘covidiot’.

      twitter.com/MrsCharWright/status/1562430980140322817/photo/1

    486. Saffron Robe says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      “Public support for the rail workers has been strong, but how long will it last when we’re up to our oxters in our own refuse?”

      Ian, my Mum and I were discussing the strike action today and I made the same point. However, my Mum suggested the refuse workers should continue to work but dump the rubbish outside Bute House, the Scottish Parliament and the UK Colonial Offices! I thought that was a brilliant idea. It would stop ordinary households from suffering the consequences and lay the blame squarely where it belongs as it were!

    487. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Saffron Robe (11.28) –

      Ha!

      Nice one.

      Japanese bus drivers have been on strike, apparently, and they continued to work as normal but didn’t take any fares from the passengers.

      Haven’t heard how it’s worked out, but nice idea, eh?

      😉

    488. Ruby says:

      The pavements are very hazardous. It was raining today and all the food and slop from the over-flowing waste-bins all got mixed together to make one big very slippery mess.

      Can the council be sued if someone has a accident?
      What is the situation re ‘health & safety’ since Brexit.

      Then there are the rats which was a big enough problem before the strike now they’ve got an all you can eat buffet and the seagulls are bursting open the bin bags and spread the food all over the place.

      Probably a good idea to keep your dog on a leash otherwise you never know what they might be eating.

    489. Saffron Robe says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      “Japanese bus drivers have been on strike, apparently, and they continued to work as normal but didn’t take any fares from the passengers.

      “Haven’t heard how it’s worked out, but nice idea, eh?”

      Yes, that’s superb, Ian! I’m all for creative strike action. I think it makes far more sense than simply downing tools.

    490. Ruby says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      24 August, 2022 at 10:23 pm

      @Ellis (9.37) –

      Your unsolicited boilerplate response is only worth noting for that disgusting throwaway description of Cameron B. Brodie.

      He was well known to many of us who met him in person and enjoyed his company. He was, by his own admission, unwell.

      Shame on you.

      You do have to be a bit careful with regards to folk being unwell. I have quite recently questioned my own actions and wondered if I wasn’t being a bit too harsh on someone who may possibly be unwell. Unless you know a person well it’s difficult to know if they are behaving in a unusual manner.

    491. Scott says:

      Hundreds of high-achieving pupils are struggling to access university in Scotland because the rules say they have not been in the UK long enough

      Lawyers are taking the Scottish government to court over the case of one straight-A pupil who has lived in the country for more than six years.

      However, she is not getting her tuition fees paid because she is two months short of the length of time required.

      The Scottish government said it cannot comment on live cases.

      Under the current rules, if you are under 18 on the first day of your university course you must have lived in the UK for seven years to be able to access free tuition.

      If you are aged between 18 and 25, you have to have lived in the UK for either half your life or 20 years.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-62664664

      To vote in 2014, people only needed 9 days local connection/residence.

    492. Confused says:

      Does anyone know anything about this?

      https://archive.ph/o2JBT

      – I have a notion if we knew the details, it might be absolutely hilarious.

      Are these guys nationalists or are they unionists?

      What did they do, exactly? Has it been archived on the wayback machine?

      The removal of the right to defend yourself looks dodgy, chipping away at the what remains of the law.

      “vulnerable witnesses”

      “sitting on someone” = abduction

      It all sounds terribly sinister, but we know from other cases how low the bar is – “threatening messages” (- repeating Galloways own words back to him) and we know how vindictive our leader is, and how in-her-pocket the law is (for now)

      – it sounds to me like if they got to question the “vulnerable witnesses” the case would fall apart, and this is what is really going on.

      High Court, so they will get a jury, no?

    493. Robert Hughes says:

      ” Britons MUST pay the price for Uk reign , says PM ”

      How much more evidence does anyone with the capacity to think for themselves require ?

      There he is , the worse , most disgustingly * entitled * , scumbag product of the English Class System , a failure at every single thing other than self – and his * chums’ * – interests thumbs-upping the camera , surrounded by the elite of one of the most PROVEN corrupt Govs in the world , with the barely believable gall to tell us the impending economic savagery about to be inflicted on the people of these islands is the price WE have to pay .

      FFS can you not see what’s happening here ?

      Nothing to do with decades of rapacious Neo-Liberal ( Blue and Pink ) dogma

      Nothing to do with the imperial fantasises the provided the cover-story for Brexit – M.ake E.ngland G.reat A.gain . Haha fckn HA !

      Nothing to do with suffering the hollowest generation of Politicians in living memory . Right across the board . EVERY UK Party virtually identical in their uselessness and dishonesty .

      As with Covid – * Crises * Mach Frei . Reason . Truth . Law . Out the fuckn window .

      Here , eat this shite , your daily bread of MSM unrelenting , intelligence-insulting propaganda .

      And when the lights go out . When the fire goes out . When lives go out ; just remember …..it’s for a noble cause .

      Hahahahahahahahahahaha FUCKING HA . Again

    494. stuart mctavish says:

      Back in the days before mandatory vaccines that worked for about 2 months (or 5 weeks after the first three weeks when victims were unvaccinated status was retained for money laundering and other such administrative purposes) the deadly covid pathogen lasted for three weeks on outdoor surfaces.

      Accordingly, if Rishi Sunak is serious about questioning the science, he could do worse than arrange for publication of studies into the number of binmen (“selfish” or otherwise) dying from clearing up dirty hankies, face masks, etc for comparison with that of general public (or even students) who maybe were more likely to have left filthy stuff lying around for weeks on end..

      In other new, Leslie Ridoch is reporting Fins to be the happiest people on the planet and, presumably, is part of the fringe element that wants to make Scotland more like Scandinavia in every way possible. Having spent the worst ye



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