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Wings Over Scotland

The Simple Ruth

Posted on October 20, 2016 by

On the contentious and topical subject of what constitutes a mandate for a second independence referendum, we’re grateful to the super-alert reader who unearthed this clip from BBC Scotland’s election night coverage of 2011, in which Ruth Davidson gives a candid and blunt explanation of the criteria required:

We’re just going to write that one down for the record.

“You don’t get a referendum for free, you have to earn it. So if the Greens and the SNP – and the SSP or any of the other parties who’ve declared an interest in independence – get over the line and can make a coalition, make a majority, get the votes in the Parliament, then they’ll vote through a referendum, and that’s what democracy’s all about… it’s perfectly simple”

We’d have to say that that sounds pretty unambiguous to us – if you’ve got the votes for it in Parliament you get to do it, no matter what anyone else thinks or what anyone says. We welcome and sincerely salute Ms Davidson’s unqualified commitment to the principles of Parliamentary democracy.

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  1. 20 10 16 16:56

    The Simple Ruth | speymouth

390 to “The Simple Ruth”

  1. David McCann says:

    Thank you Ms Davidson. Couldnt have put it better myself

  2. Bob Mack says:

    Rev, I salute you and your alert reader. Game,set, and nearly match.

  3. Grouse Beater says:

    When the verbal snippet of Ruthie wisdom ended up popped a portrait of Peppa Pig.

    Just sayin’.

  4. heedtracker says:

    “Responding to the draft bill’s publication, Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson said the Scottish government had “given up on being a government for all of Scotland and is just playing to the SNP choir”.

    She added: “The majority of folk don’t want another vote, the majority of people in Scotland don’t want independence, and the SNP should take this off the table.”

    Is today’s version of tory democratic waffle. Sponsored by BBC No More Refs Scotland.

  5. JPJ2 says:

    Expect her to try and convince us that black is white or any other nonsense to try and wriggle out of her own words.

  6. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    I just love all these Wings Alert Readers – this one is just a cracker.

    Perfectly simple !

  7. Mike says:

    Has anybody tweeted that quote to her recently?
    Be nice to know what her reply would be.

  8. Proud Cybernat says:

    Internet is a right bastirt, ain’t it Roothie!!

  9. crisiscult says:

    As we know, Ruth gets a lot of tough questioning by the media so I’m sure this will be a regular question for her 😛

  10. Macart says:

    Oh, that’ll leave a mark. 😀

    Well remembered that reader.

  11. Ian MacDonald says:


  12. galamcennalath says:

    Well done that alert reader!

    There is so much video floating around, there are instances where almost every Unionist politician can be found contradicting themselves. Not trivia, or things where a change in position could be explained by changing circumstances, but fundamental constitutional positions which should be consistent.

    This is an absolute cracker. The definitive statement on IndyRefs. If a majority can vote it through parliament then that’s democracy. For ONCE, I think we can all agree with Ruth.

    She will never be allowed to forget this one.

  13. Proud Cybernat says:

    Thing is though, wee Roothie will jsut say, “There is no mandate for a second IndyRef. No bill has been presented to (Holyrood) parliament and no bill has been passed by the parliament. Thus, presently, there is no mandate. And unitl such time as the Scottish Government get the IndyRef2 Bill through parliament there will be no mandate.”

    Or words to that effect.

    It’s all about #10 pinging the ball back into the SG’s court.

  14. Arbroath1320 says:

    So the part time leetle tankette and buffalo rider states quite categorically that the people of Scotland do NOT want another vote I can only guess she is not very good at maths then. 😉

    As far as I’m aware there are 129 M.S.P’s of which one is the Presiding Officer meaning there are 128 M.S.P’s who “usually” vote. This will need 65 votes to cross wee Ruthie’s line. 😛

    In May we ended up with 63 S.N.P. M.S.P.’s just TWO seats short of an overall majority and across wee Ruthie’s line. Now if only we could find some other M.S.P,.’s from somewhere who have been minded to support Scottish independence in the past. Perhaps they might like to consider supporting the S.N.P. in this aim. If only there was such a party though … They must be out there somewhere.

    We are not asking much … just TWO M.S.P.’s … so come on Holyrood show us like minded M.S.P.’s! 😀

  15. nairnkev says:

    I can just see the buffalo wrangler saying ‘once in a generation’.
    Despite it being blatantly obvious circumstances have changed, she’ll squirm some way out of this evidence of her duplicity, that and her yoonie journo pals won’t provide any decent journalistic integrity by pointing out her contradictory opines of today

  16. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…In May we ended up with 63 S.N.P. M.S.P.’s…”

    And the Yoons, between them, only managed 60 seats.

    So, even if the Greens abstain, there’s an IndyRef2 majority.

  17. galamcennalath says:

    The SNP and Greens have a mandate to combine and pass legislation allowing a referendum, as Ruth says, “simple”.

    The objective is to be in a position to call that referendum, if it becomes the only way to protect Scotland’s interests in the EU. Downing Street, and others, are getting ahead of themselves on this. Or are they?

    We have no idea of what their Brexit deal will be. It will be the EU who dictate the terms, in reality. Does May et al actually have any idea?

    If the deal is soft and within the ESM then there will be no IndyRef2 as a result of Brexit. So, is all the white heat coming from unionists an admission that they expect a hard Brexit and that IndyRef2 will in fact be inevitable?

    If they do intend to try to go soft and stay within the ESM then they have nothing to get heet up about.

  18. manandboy says:

    Re The Launch of the Referendum Bill online at BBC Scotland

    Anyone who cares to read the comments for this article might be struck, like myself, after a while , and realise that they all ‘sound’ as if they have been written by the same person – in favour of no to another referendum.

    Tip – read the comments quickly, one after the other, without pausing between. The sense of sameness comes quicker.

    There hardly a single comment in favour.

    The BBC? Reporting panic and desperation across the network.

  19. Marco McGinty says:


    I wonder how the rancid one will try and spin her way out of that one?

  20. dramfineday says:

    Oh you are awful, but I like you! Nudge – and Ruth goes sprawling.

    Gold “Alert reader” badge for that spot.

  21. Big Jock says:

    What Ruth meant to say was: “Scotland has a mandate to call a referendum at any time ,but only if we are sure Yes will lose. If there is any chance yes look likely to win then there shouldn’t be another referendum ever”.

    The Yoons know the game is up. You can politically fix a referendum once but twice is pretty much impossible.

    I am expecting a lot more argument than there was the last time over the Edinburgh agreement consent. The Yoons are setting out there stall. If they refuse then Holyrood goes on strike and an election is called. One which clarifies it’s an independence election.

  22. galamcennalath says:

    The parliament has a mandate ….

    “The Scottish Green Party has welcomed the government’s newly published draft bill on independence. The Greens argue that the option of an independence vote is needed given the 62 percent Remain vote in Scotland, with the Westminster government refusing to show flexibility in allowing Scotland to forge its own relationship with Europe”

  23. manandboy says:

    Big Jock says:”You can politically fix a referendum once but twice is pretty much impossible.”

    I wish I had your confidence, BJ. I’ve read the T&C’s of the referendum bill consultation paper. It indicates that the Scottish Government is perfectly happy with the running of IndyRef14 by the Electoral Commission and intends to repeat the process.

    So, a network of Unionist providers will oversee IndyRef2 and everything will again be conducted fairly and honestly to everyone’s satisfaction.

    Not mine.

  24. Training Day says:

    Ah, but we’ve had the referendum since that clip, which was a once in an aeon event never to be repeated under any circumstances, and therefore that’s what democracy’s all about.. it’s perfectly simple.

    Or something.

  25. Dr Jim says:

    I don’t know what everybody thinks they’re hearing there, I clearly heard her say, Bmaha sbru hbcr hrinb, Absolutely not no mandate, mNHgft HIfcv strbs, Pull the wool over the electorates eyes, nbchud mkiIb dnhr, And I’ve made that perfectly clear..Meerkat!

    Is everybody deaf or something

  26. Flower of Scotland says:

    Do you think that there is a possibility of the Tories coming up with a new strategy that keeps us in the EU?

    If they think that they will lose Scotland, I think that there is a real possibility of that happening. England just could not survive without Scotland.

    It’s going to be a long wait for the announcement of Article 50!

  27. One_Scot says:

    Having just read the Greens response to the bill on Independence, for me, what makes IndyRef2 even more striking, is the fact that it can only be brought forward by two different political parties.

    And it is very reassuring to hear Ruth Davidson giving the Conservatives support for the right to do so.

  28. Nana says:


    Who is getting rich, not Scotland that’s for sure.

    North Sea Oil Firms Shares Soar After North Sea Find in the Trillions

  29. One_Scot says:

    That’s the thing, this is not the Greens hanging on to the coat-tails of the SNP. This is their referendum every bit as much as it is the SNPs

    I think that will have a significant bearing on the result of IndyRef2.

  30. JET Jockey says:

    Would it be possible to get the clip of a Tory Prime Minister, Ted Heath making the comment (when asked by Robin Day on a TV news programme how Scotland would manage if Independent) the answer from Mr Heath was “Perfectly well plenty talented people” this was before the true potential of the North Sea was known. Perhaps the BBC will have a look in their archives!!!!!!.

  31. Onwards says:

    To be fair, Davidson has always said that blocking a referendum isn’t realistic if there is a majority in the Scottish Parliament.
    Even Theresa May has been very careful in her wording.

    Just practically speaking, blocking a referendum would look anti-democratic, to the point of treating Scotland like a colony.

    It would backfire against the Tories, and lead to a surge in SNP support at the next elections.

    I don’t think the SNP wanted a referendum for at least 5 years after the last one, but its pretty clear that the situation has changed drastically, and we are in a new post-Brexit generation.

  32. Petra says:

    @ Nana says at 4:26 pm …. ”Who is getting rich, not Scotland that’s for sure. North Sea Oil Firms Shares Soar After North Sea Find in the Trillions.”

    How long is this going to be covered up for? Another for Inform Scotland Billboards?!!


    Ruth Davidson: ”It’s perfectly simple.” Oh well, maybe she should pass that advice, her opinion, on to her perfectly simple boss down south. A wee tweet to Nick Eardley of the BBC wouldn’t go amiss either.

  33. jimnarlene says:

    Thanx, Ruth…

  34. toprquil houghmagandy fflufington smythe says:

    Come now you good people our good friend Ruth never lies.

    Her recent pronouncements at FMQT on the NHS were not lies as you all know—she was just getting ahead of herself, thought she was already a big girl in a grown up debating chamber somewhere to the South of Hadrians Wall, although I must admit she would not have been allowed to tell such truths in that place, where truth is not part of the day to day scheme of things.

    As my late sainted father would have said the great Bobby Burns would have had a word or two for her. He, my father, was very fond of an old Scots word he picked up at his [minor] Public School,–Jennywillocks,– still in use in benighted parts of our beloved country.

  35. Iain More says:


    Like you I have no faith in the Brit Nat Electoral Commission either.

    For me the SNP SG Govt is setting up IndyRef2 to fail if that shower of canutes are left overseeing IndyRef2 and only a quizzer in my view would say that the Electoral Commission was in anyway impartial in the first IndyRef. The first Indy Ref left me with nothing but contempt for that body and a bitter taste in my mouth.

    Indy Ref 1 still reeks years after and the reek is that of the Yoons dirty foreign money. That is just one of the problems I have with the Electoral Commission. The stench of something rotten surrounding the PV still assaults my nostrils.

    I could go on but I wont. I feel nauseous at the thought the Electoral Commission will be overseeing IndyRef2.

  36. brian mcarthur says:

    The latest threat appears to be the HARD BORDER at Gretna, but what they forget is that they are going to be surrounded by hard borders when they exit. It’s a problem of their making, not ours. We can have open border with EU and whatever rUK wants to negotiate with us if we get our independence. I think that’s a better solution by far, rUK will not have a trade embargo on Scotland, that would be preposterous.

  37. Petra says:

    @ manandboy says at 4:03 pm …. ‘BBC link.’

    I couldn’t get it opened manandboy so I’ll try reposting it for you.

  38. Gav Box says:

    @ Onwards. Agreed, given the age demographic of no votes being so high in the over 65’s it would make sense to give it at least few years whilst nature take it’s course.

  39. JLT says:

    Seems to be the Tory thing to do these days!

    Getting caught in traps of their own making…

  40. Bob Mack says:

    Many people who live here and abroad but who voted to remain had much to lose by leaving the UK. That is just a fact. EU citizens voted to remain as did many silver swallows and others resident abroad. Brexit has changed all that and more.

    This time I am sure they will vote for indy

  41. arthur thomson says:

    I am with those who do not believe that the Brit electoral commission can hold an honest referendum. As a member, I will be communicating that opinion to the SNP and I will be looking for an answer to that and the other concerns people have raised about the conduct of the last indyref.

  42. Petra says:

    @ Iain More says at 4:53 pm …. ”manandboy – Like you I have no faith in the Brit Nat Electoral Commission either.

    For me the SNP SG Govt is setting up IndyRef2 to fail if that shower of canutes are left overseeing IndyRef2” ….

    I don’t have any faith in them either however we should start getting the word out there about not using potentially fraudulant postal votes (another for the billboard nearer the time?). Twenty percent of voters seemingly used postal votes.

    Additionally will the SNP change the electoral franchise this time round such as clamping down on second home owners, no vote for non-Scottish students, having to have resided here for at least 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years or more. One year at least as that would cut out the individuals who trotted up here and rented an apartment over the summer holidays. September 18th must have suited many of them, especially students, very well indeed. And of course we MUST have exit polls next time round.

  43. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Oh no, and there’s me telling everyone I know not to believe anything the Ruthenfuhrer says as she’s a lying bastirt 🙂

  44. Lenny Hartley says:

    Nana @4.26 southern North sea normally means the gas fields off Gt Yarmouth!

    I just checked and indeed it’s actually in English waters

  45. One_Scot says:

    arthur thomson, good for you, I know I for one would be very interested in the outcome of your enquiry.

  46. Juteman says:

    You are wrong, dear Reverend.
    She never said that.
    She never said that.
    She never said that.
    She never said that.
    She never said that.
    Repeat after me.
    She never said that.
    She never said that.
    The BBC is to be trusted above all, and she never said that.
    The BBC say she never said that.

  47. Legerwood says:

    Bob Mack @ 5.03 pm

    If you are referring to the EU referendum when you say EU citizens living here voted to Remain then it is my understanding that EU citizens living in the UK were not allowed to vote in the EU Referendum

  48. Vambomarbeleye says:

    For the the next referendum. I have my reservations about allowing postal voting. Not convinced that it can’t be manipulated.

  49. Paul D says:

    Comments? On a Scottish Politics article on the BBC? How did that happen? Someone will be getting their jotters.

  50. Bob Mack says:


    No ,I refer to the 2014 referendum where many were resident in Scotland. I have also recently talked to several families with elderly parents residing abroad who are now fearful of Brexit having settled in Europe. They are telling their children to support indy . Funny how events can turn your whole philosophy .

  51. velofello says:

    Such is my level of cynicism of Westminster and UK business types that I’ll believe the reality of this great new gas field in southern N Sea waters, post Brexit, as the gas flows. I’d reckon the southern N Sea has been surveyed extensively over the years, but then since Cluff of – Firth of Forth retreat – has made the discovery, the gas may well extraction by fracking or coal bed ignition.

    The news however will surely cheer up the Leavers.

  52. Nana says:

    Re my last post

    The is up with around 20-30 articles already there, but the remaining 120 odd articles on BBC bias we’re linking to are going to be uploaded over the next day or so, so folk might find a few gaps initially on the site. They will be filled!

    Please donate if you can.

  53. Iona says:

    Brilliant! There are so many backward somersaults by Ruth Davidson it’s difficult to keep track of them all… but that’s a gem!

  54. Robert Louis says:

    Meanwhile, the Labour party, failing to grasp just how significantly politics have changed, especially in England, still prefer Scotland to be taken out of the EU against our will, rather than take control of our own affairs.

    Labour are as of today, even more irrelevant in Scotland.

  55. Robert Louis says:

    Nana at 556pm, is excellent, and their plan for billboards, exposing the blatant BBC bias against Scotland, is a superb idea.

    The funding campaign page is at;

    If you can spare a few pounds, then this is one campaign worth supporting. Both Prof. John Robertson and Ponsonby are directly involved, so we can expect it to be done well. Please keep posting the funding link.

  56. geeo says:

    Right, thats me spent an hour putting that Davidson quote all over Davidson’s facebook pages…

    Boy is she obsessed.

    Almost every single of the leading 20/25 posts made in her name are about stopping the indyref.

    Her quote from here is now over every single one of them.

    Great ammunition. Cheers Stu.

  57. Ruby says:

    Just because an MSP is opposed to Independence isn’t a reason to vote against a referendum.

    The weird thing about Ruth is she says it would be a mistake for Theresa May to block a 2nd IndyRef yet she & her party are prepared to vote against a 2nd IndyRef in the hope of blocking it!

    Any Tory policy that doesn’t go down well in Scotland Ruth Davidson just says she is against it. You’ve got to ask why she is in the Tory Party.

  58. Ruby says:

    I’ll bet all Ruth Davidson will say is she doesn’t agree with Theresa May!

  59. galamcennalath says:

    @Robert Louis
    @Nana is excellent, and their plan for billboards, exposing the blatant BBC bias against Scotland, is a superb idea.

    Agreed! Great idea.

    Also, I like the way they take you to other top quality sources of impartial information 🙂

  60. yesindyref2 says:

    Indeed. I liked Patrick Harvie’s article in The National before the Holyrood Elections. I too wanted an overall SNP majority as the safer route to Indy Ref 2, but the advantage the other way was the diversity of the Green case, and greater authority for them with more MSPs. Harvie:

    Secondly, let us ensure that this new independence case is as broad and inclusive as it can be. Part of this of course is about non-SNP parties – including the constructive role the Greens can play – but it goes way beyond parties alone. The Yes campaign often managed to achieve this… but not always. The closer the referendum drew the more a “don’t rock the boat” mood developed. Independence is supposed to be about rocking the boat! It’s an inherently radical idea and we should be proud to say so.

    As we build this new case for independence we should be more than relaxed about the broad, multi-party democracy which exists in Scotland; we should recognise that it is the very source of strength that we need.

  61. Dawn in NL says:

    From the Guardian
    Dugdale has also written to the Scottish parliament’s presiding officer, Ken Macintosh, asking for clarification over how the SNP’s plans will be examined, arguing that the SNP is trying to dodge scrutiny by publishing the consultation during parliamentary recess.

    It’s a consultation document, Kezia. It’s not like they are trying to sneak it through parliament or anything. Soundbite politics, how are ye.

  62. manandboy says:

    How IndyRef2 will be set up – a consultation. This could be very important indeed, so please, make sure you’re views are known to the right people.

    Featured Consultation: Consultation on a Draft Referendum Bill
    This consultation invites views on the proposals for how the referendum would be run. A draft Scottish Independence Referendum bill is set out as an appendix to the document.

    Consultation ends in 83 days (11/01/2017)

  63. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, looking at that SNP page about the ref consultation, it does look as though they’ve been taking lessons from Wings – and using the media, using the media, using the media, f*kemall.

  64. Nana says:

    I just want to say the billboard project is thanks to Cadogan, Simon & Cherry and some folk behind the scenes.

    The links and spreadsheets were time consuming and hopefully worth it and I want to thank my hubby for his help.

    Let us make this project a success

  65. Legerwood says:

    Bob Mack

    Your use of the word ‘remain’ was confusing bit since it is so closely associated now with the EU referendum.

    Thank you for the clarification.

  66. Ruby says:

    Paul D says:
    20 October, 2016 at 5:47 pm

    Comments? On a Scottish Politics article on the BBC? How did that happen? Someone will be getting their jotters.

    Ruby replies
    Yes there are comments but they are about as worth reading as the comments on The Scotsman & Herald.

    The article is not much better! These Unonists politicians just keep repeating the same old stuff

    Ruth: Majority don’t want referendum. UK trade worth ten times more than EU trade. My remain vote not a vote for independence!
    Kezia: SNP should be concentration of education & healthcare not seeking fresh divisions. Once in a generation promise! Scotland doesn’t want 2nd IndyRef.

    Willie: education & health blah! blah! It’s clear SNP want independence!!!

  67. yesindyref2 says:

    Done. I asked for an exit poll. Couldn’t see where to put it, so I put it on Q2.

  68. Tam The Bam says:

    If the SNP said they didn’t want an indepednence referendum would the unionist parties insist on holding one?

  69. Graeme says:

    Just made a small donation to the billboard campaign this is something I think can really make a difference, I’d love to see this go way over target


  70. Ruby says:

    Most of the comments on the BBC article seem to be from very angry Englishmen. I can’t figure out why they are so keen to keep Scotland which they claim they subsidise in the Union. ‘What are advantages for England in having Scotland in the Union?’ Perhaps that question could go on a billboard.

    One of the comments says:

    ‘Yes = independence and No EU membership and No = remain as part of the UK and trade around the world and be prosperous.’

    What would prevent iScotland from trading around the world. We make pretty good biscuits. Everyone loves shortbread! Jam we can do that too ‘Dundee marmalade’ is the best in the world. We don’t grow tea but we do make a very popular alcoholic drink.

  71. Robert Graham says:

    looks like the Scotsman comments page has just acquired a BBC logo dont go there .usual pish and pretty ill informed pish at that , its amusing how many people still believe in the tooth fairy .

  72. manandboy says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    20 October, 2016 at 6:44 pm
    Done. I asked for an exit poll. Couldn’t see where to put it, so I put it on Q2.

    Essential, yesindyref2, and do you know what, with such a huge number of postal votes, I would argue not only for an ‘exit poll’ for them, however that could be organised, but also for a strict audit of postal voting.

    I will also be requesting/campaigning for strict auditing of spare ballot papers. In IndyRef14, you may recall, 800,000 spares were printed, but never heard of again. It is a coincidence that this number was close to the number of postal votes if my memory serves me correctly.

    The truth is yir2, that anyone wishing to have a safe and secure result, would build into the process all the checks and safeguards necessary. In contrast, in IndyRef14, so many safety measures were missed or left out, or left unchecked, or unaudited.

    The very idea of the Referendum being under the near complete control of the Unionist National and local government and not even a cough from the SNP, beggars belief.

    Maybe next time. If the Scottish Government does not deliver a secure, reliable referendum next time, then there must be personnel changes starting from the very top.

  73. Petra says:

    @ Paul D at 5:47pm … BBC comments section.’

    Looks as though the BBC is heading down the same route as The Express Paul by affording so many people a platform to post such divisive comments …. SNP Scots hate the English and so on. Exactly what they knew would happen and exactly what they wanted to happen. They’re an absolute disgrace and have reached an all time low, imo.


    Become a MEMBER of INFORM SCOTLAND for £10 a year. WELL worth it as it’s one of the few sites in Scotland (the UK?) that’s actively opposing the BBC’s blatant bias. Check out the list of contributors. Very impressive.

  74. yesindyref2 says:

    Ruth Davidson: “Nicloa Sturgeon should get on with the day job of running Scotland”

    Nicola Sturgeon: “But that’s a part-time job as we only have part-time powers. Can I put you down as a YES to Independence so I can have a full-time day job? Thanks.”.

  75. galamcennalath says:

    Ruby says:

    What are advantages for England in having Scotland in the Union?

    While I think all the economic arguments about oil backing up the pound, Scotland’s exports, etc are important, I think for many down south it’s a much more primitive reaction we see.

    IMO prestige, status, standing, authority, entitlement, etc are probably very important. They fear the the last vestige of their Empire slipping away. Their Greater England is destined to become Little England, and they don’t relish that thought.

    Sometimes the reality comes out in the language as they say ‘lose Scotland’. Scotland is not theirs ‘to lose’, but they don’t quite see it that way.

    That’s the emotive side. However in practical terms rUK loses most of the UK’s sea bed and coast line. Strategically they lose a vast chunk of the North Atlantic. Their top table nukes will probably have to be decommissioned. Their seat on the UN Security Council will be challenged.

    And all this when they lose their power and influence in the EU, and their economy is likely to nosedive.

    rUK is destined to be a much diminished wee corner of the planet, and they don’t like it.

  76. HandandShrimp says:

    Never thought I would say this but I agree with Ruth


    If the draft bill is voted on and it goes through then it will take place. It is all perfectly simple.

  77. Petra says:

    @ Nana at 6:36pm …… “I just want to say the billboard project is thanks to Cadogan, Simon and Cherry ….”

    What happened to Scunterbunnet Nana (and the other people on the original team?)

    Scunterbunnet? Is that Simon?

  78. galamcennalath says:

    Ruby says:

    We don’t grow tea

    Actually we do. High in the Perthshire hills. I haven’t tasted it, though. 🙂

  79. Fran says:

    @ Manandboy

    Went to consultation page but went above my head after question 3.

  80. ScottishPsyche says:

    Why does England want Scotland in the UK? Why wouldn’t they? We have the land they want to use as their playground, space to breathe but also to dump anything they do not want. We allow them to indulge in quaint fantasies about lovely landscapes and loyal subjects as the Royals troop up for their summer sojourn. Our coastline is strategically essential to them to play at being important.

    We have resources but not the infrastructure so we cannot exploit them fully. We have to rely on them so we will always be poor in relation to them. To do otherwise would let the genie out the bottle.

    Fundamentally though,they think we are just like them and obviously in many ways we are but increasingly our views and attitudes are not. This is why I believe it is so hard for them to understand. We just don’t want the same things anymore.

  81. Thepnr says:


    Well done to you and the hubby and all the others involved in putting together the Inform Scotland website, it looks very professional and I was imressed.

    Just made my contribution, maybe if they’d held off for a week or so until everyone gets paid their target might have been rached very quickly. I belive in this project and am certain that this initial (I hope it is initial) target will be reached.

    Many Yoons jaws will be dropping at the “affrontary” of ordinary Scots and others (Cadogan) to take on the might of the state and it’s chief propagandist the BBC.

    I’m looking forward to seeing my first ever attack on the disgusting Mis-Reporting Scotland in giant letters on a city billboard near you soon. Some presenters might need new nose jobs after seeing one as their noses will be put well out of joint.

  82. Ruby says:

    Ruby says:

    We don’t grow tea

    Actually we do. High in the Perthshire hills. I haven’t tasted it, though. ?

    Ruby replies

    We’ll that’s great we can offer the full Scottish afternoon tea and we can even throw in some fine Scottish Smoked Salmon triangles!

    I think we’ll do really well trading around the world we could perhaps also offer the full Scottish dinner!
    Langoustines, Scottish Beef or Lamb with Cranachan & shortbread for dessert, a nice ‘digestif’ of Drambuie or maybe a nice Gaelic Coffee.

    PS Do we grow coffee?

  83. ScottieDog says:

    Pity the Scottish elections weren’t post brexit.

  84. mike cassidy says:

    ScottishPsyche 7.46

    As I pointed out last night somewhere, the Scots and the English don’t even have the same attitude towards windfarms!

  85. Kevin Evans says:

    Good to have her onboard I guess.

    Sleekit bitch she is

  86. Stoker says:

    Struth, Ruth, it came oot your mooth!

    And these just in fae Nana, tig, you’re het, pass it oan!

  87. Why doesn’t Ruth Davidson get on with her day job as a self publicising glory seeker who has managed to appear on TV and fill column inches every day advising the SNP Government to get on with their day job, which, as we all know is to fight tooth and nail against Ruth Davidson’s Party who continue to punish ‘ordinary working families’ of Scotland, impoverishing our disabled, exploiting our institutionally marginalised low paid low skilled , zero hours ephemeral workforce, who will slam the European doors shut in our faces, and confine us Scots to a USSR closed state run by a Right Wing Fascist Oligarchy in England, if we just stand by and let Jackson Carlaw, WATP Professor Tomkins, and The Queen’s Eleven Murdo Fraser, members of a party which was soundly thrashed in the SGE this May, ignore the overwhelming democratic will of the people of Scotland.
    Nicola Sturgeon is doing the day job all right, Ms Strictly, stopping you and your privileged elite driving Scotland into colonial servitude, cut off from the rest of Europe, and indeed the world,at the beck and call of the Blue Tory Branch Office and their English handlers.
    Better Together has reformed. STV news tonight featured Davidson, then Dugdale, then that LD chap Cole-Hamilton (?) for the No vote, then Harvie for the Yes side. 3 to 1, giving the impression that this reflects the mood of the country.
    Ah, the MSM. Whit ur they like?
    The Road is long, with many a winding turn.
    Blue Red and Yellow Tories, arm and arm, fighting to drive Scotland into USSR style isolation.
    Not this time, my friends.

  88. Petra says:

    @ Ruby …. “Do we grow coffee.”

    Ha, ha, ha. I know Scotland is rich in resources but your pushing your luck now Ruby. We’ve got plenty of oil right enough and it’s a similar colour.

  89. crisiscult says:

    re the BBC comments and some comments above about England’s attitude to Scotland: having a fair level of familiarity with the relationship between Russia and Ukraine, I’d say the sentiments are remarkably similar. Ukraine is a part of Russia’s sense of itself. Ukrainians are viewed as being the same, though slightly rougher, like less cultured cousins from a village. Ukraine should never have been an independent country they think. To some extent there is truth in these sentiments. The countries have long historical ties (their existence as separate states or nations is much shorter and less clear than with England and Scotland). But, and this is the key point, what they don’t realise is that the relationship has got worse and worse – they’ve grown apart – and now many of those who, in the past, saw themselves as being the same as Russians, are now becoming fiercly Ukrainian. I can identify with this. Maybe if Maggie hadn’t happened, I would not be so determined to separate our countries. England and Scotland have definitely grown apart in my mind.

  90. Robert Louis says:

    This article from 2012, picked up from Rev’s twitter feed, says much more eloquently what I have been saying since the talk of the first indy referendum. That is, a referendum is just asking a question, the notion it can somehow be ‘illegal’ or forbidden by Westminster is utter hogwash of the very highest order.

    Meanwhile, I now know we grow tea (TEA!!) in Scotland.

  91. Petra says:

    @ manandboy at 6:30pm …. ‘Indyref consultation form’.

    Thanks for that manandboy. I filled in the form and made sure that I mentioned exit polls, 2nd home owners, students, short term migrant workers and term of residency. If anyone else is filling it in you need to cram in your points in the first couple of boxes. In saying that there is a back button but it’s a pain in the neck.


    @ Jack Collatin at 8:21pm ….Ruth Davidson.’

    Great post Jack and I bet you’re glad you got that off your chest!

    One of the things that really, really annoys me is the more recent mantra of “Nicola Sturgeon should get on with the day job” …. everything’s falling to wrack (right spelling?) and ruin.

    She, Dugdale and Willie are doing absolutely nought for anyone: Not even their constituents as they have assistants dealing with that, following the wee tête-à-tête. They sit in Holyrood griping from the sidelines and never have anything constructive to offer for the betterment of the Scots at all. Then wee Ruth’s party hits us all with a bombshell and Nicola has to add that, dealing with Brexit, to her already massive workload. They’ve got some brass neck and wouldn’t last for 5 minutes as First Minister.

  92. Dr Jim says:

    Get back to the day job they squeek, start running the country they complain, Scotlands education system is falling apart they girn….and yet

    MSN research says top 10 places to live in Britain are

    East Renfrewshire numero uno for Education and business in Britain
    East Dunbartonshire numero dos for education in Britain

    They even sent me this information as an email so really that’s numero shit for brains as a propaganda arm of UK Guv

  93. Cherry says:

    I put this over on off topic earlier to day.Petra Scunterbunnet
    dropped out last year and we three have been working together since the beginning…we’re all very hopeful it will be a success
    Thank you to Nana and Norman for their help it’s been a very hectic few weeks…but we won’t be finished until the people of Scotland know the truth and are free to build an Independent Scotland to be proud of.Thanks to everyone who has very kindly donated today…LET’S DO IT!
    Hi people
    You may have noticed our wee website. Well we know you did! coz you caught us out and you were putting donations in,before our Website was fully live. So apologises to those who may have been disappointed at not being able to work with it.
    Myself,Cadogan and Simon hope you will all come over and read our articles,join our membership to be able to vote and choose our next campaign. Print off our poster and stick it in your window, every little helps to get the word out, so go have a look, but most of all help us make our goal. Without your support we won’t be able to put as Many BILLBOARDS as we can throughout our wee country. THIS TIME IT’S PERSONAL!! check it out go to then go to
    read articles from Prof.John Robertson, who is our media spokesman, G.A. Ponsonby, Rev Stuart Campbell and many more to come. We are still adding articles daily, we hope to have all the gremlins under control but be kind we are just ordinary folks and we have been trying hard to get this out to the world!!
    Donate Donate Donate Donate thank you!
    Cherry, Cadogan and Simon

  94. Movy says:

    Great article as usual. I would like to fund the billboards, but I am unhappy that I can’t use PayPal, which I believe GoFundMe doesn’t support. Is there any way round this?

  95. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s great.

    But (you knew one was coming), couldn’t there also be a line on the billboard. something like “Listen or watch them very carefully or visit …”

    Something like that.

    There again “mis-reporting Scotland” on its own might alert them and make them aware, it did to a pal of mine – he paid more attention after I pointed it out to him.

    Don’t know though, simple is always best. It sticks.

  96. CmonIndy says:

    For those upset at the consultation paper giving the Electoral Commission their role, make sure you respond with your concerns and ideas. That’s the point of a consultation. I’m also going to mention exit polls and possibility of exclusion of holiday homers.

  97. Cadogan Enright says:

    @movey at 9.21

    PayPal can be done at -see ‘donate’

    Loads of PayPal donations received so far

    AND clear instruction at bottom of GoFundMe appeal ifor how to use PayPal you look to the bottom

  98. Liz g says:

    While I think it is pretty obvious that a lot of yes 2014 voter’s don’t trust either the postal votes and the electoral commission, so aye something different needs to be organised.
    But if Holyrood put a different set of arrangements in place.
    We would need to be very aware that the no voter’s would be just as suspicious of them,and they would be encouraged to be so.
    Probably even before the vote took place.

    The BBC would probably do a documentary about it.

    We I think, have to be prepared that ,just like with Brexit, the period between the Yes vote and Independence will be the optimum time to create a demand to reverse it.

    If we look at project fear for Indy Ref 1,as we have said ourselves every threat , happened anyway.
    They must have come up with which threats to use because this stuff was in the pipeline.
    That could have created a demand to reverse the vote at best.
    But at worse it also could have fed an angry protest.
    I won’t insult everyone’s intelligence by elaborating what I mean.
    So I think we need to put our thinking caps on to head off,what it seems to me to be if not an obvious tactic of the British state after a Yes vote at least,to coin a phrase a highly likely one.

    Maybe Joanne and/or Cadogen could give us some input on how we could mitigate some of these issues.
    So that we can put the best solutions possible to the consultation?
    We have to be as mindful of the period just after the vote,as the vote it’s self if it is to be successful.

  99. G4jeepers says:

    For those of you filling in the consultation please, please remember to remind them if we have to use the EC that we would like to have the ballots counted at the polling stations in front of witnesses from both sides and not have ballot boxes sent into the night as was the case last time.
    Exit polls are also a must for any free and fair election.
    Also monitoring of traffic at the border to keep a count of any unusual volumes of coaches heading into Scotland during the weeks leading up to the vote. This could be done with cameras.
    Have the vote outwith the tourist season.

  100. Macart says:


    Superb Nana. 🙂

    Site looks great.

  101. gerry parker says:

    Inform Scotland.

    Contributed, best of luck with the funding.

  102. Dorothy Devine says:

    OT ‘Russian warships heading for the UK ‘ on my MSN news attributed to the Independent -I nip over to the newspaper site and there is no article.

    I search for ‘Russian ships’ and I get ‘permission denied. I put Adam Lusher the journalists name in search and get ‘Permission denied”

    Can anyone give me an acceptable explanation of this – or try and follow the article just to see if they get the same message.

  103. Rock says:

    In the undemocratic UK parliament, the Tories have a majority of MPs who can force through legislation.

    In the democratic Scottish parliament, the SNP do not currently have a majority to force through legislation.

    The SNP have the mandate to try and carry out their policies as a minority government but they have to rely on the support of others to pass legislation.

    If and when the Scottish parliament votes for it, Nicola will have a mandate to hold a referendum, assuming that Westminster does not have the power to block one.

    At the moment, unfortunately, the SNP do not have the mandate to HOLD a referendum.

    As in their first term when they had to abandon their policy because the unionists would not have let it pass.

    But this time they would expect the Greens to back them and provide a majority.

  104. Graeme says:

    Anybody know how long the billboard campaign is to run ?


  105. Graeme Doig says:


    Great work on the site and plans for billboards. A few quid donated to the cause.

    btw Yanis Varoufakis on qt tonight. Might be interesting.

  106. galamcennalath says:

    National front page. Spot on ….

    “Where’s your mandate, Prime Minister?”

  107. One_Scot says:

    Not sure if this has been posted before, but it is the form to allow you to suggest ways to improve the running of IndyRef2. I have suggested some things about monitoring the referendum and postal voting.

    I don’t now how long it will run for but it you have an opinion, I would recommend filling it in.

  108. Still Positive. says:

    Could the SG restrict the vote to people with a Scottish tax code? That would weed out holiday home owners and others with only a fleeting residency.

    But what is the position of students normally resident here who have never had a job.

    I’m thinking of my 17-year-old grand-daughter who has a NI number but has never worked.

    I also wonder how many OAPs don’t pay tax.

  109. Tam Jardine says:

    Nana, Cherry, Cadogan et al

    Brilliant work- I cannot wait to see those billboards! Will bung in what I can when I can.

  110. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dorothy Devine
    Don’t know about that, but it’s open news about the Russian fleet – it is international waters in teh Channel, and it has happened before.

    Russian warships including an aircraft carrier are due to enter UK territorial waters some time on Friday morning.

    The Independent has been told that if the Russian task force including the aircraft carrier the Admiral Kuznetsov maintains its current speed, it should leave the North Sea and enter the Channel before noon on Friday.

    RN has a destroyer and a frigate to escort it through. But it will be well covered, hope nobody has an itchy finger.

  111. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, and Harvie has already said the Greens will be supporting the Referendum Bill. From the Scottish Green Party’s website@

    Westminster would be “foolish” to block indyref bill say Greens

    20 October, 2016 – 14:49

    The Scottish Green Party has welcomed the government’s newly published draft bill on independence. The Greens argue that the option of an independence vote is needed given the 62 percent Remain vote in Scotland, with the Westminster government refusing to show flexibility in allowing Scotland to forge its own relationship with Europe.

    Scottish Greens played a prominent role in the 2014 independence referendum and also backed a remain vote in 2016. The party’s co-convener said it would be “foolish” for the Westminster government to block a fresh independence referendum.

    It’s very clear that before Sturgeon announced this at the Conference, and before that when first announced, she and the SNP have talked to Patrick Harvie and the Greens, and agreement has been reached. As expected.

  112. scotspine says:

    Donation to informscotland sent.

    Lets do this folks.

  113. @ Petra 9.10
    I refuse to live in a country, the UK. which spends billions on WMD, and punishes our poorest for the crimes, and they were crimes punishable by imprisonment in my view, of the Filthy Rich Bankers and speculators. We should be building houses, improving our transport system, investing heavily in renewable energy, especially hydro, wave, and solar, giving every child a World class free at the point of delivery education, investing in growing our economy, och, I could go on; it has been discussed on here and many non main stream media outlets.
    Bairns not bombs. Self Determination for Scotland.
    Ruth Davidson believes in a hierarchy, of the Establishment, the rich, and the privileged at the top, and a dog eat dog rat race neo liberal middle class acting as a buffer between the top 1% and the Great Unwashed, whom the Red Blue and Yellow Tories consistently ensure through WM social engineering will always be an Underclass, the have nots, and while the rich get richer and richer, the Hoi Polloi will remain stomped upon by Strictly Ruth, and kept in modern day serfdom.
    Dugdale and Rennie (or has Cole Hamilton taken over as LD leader yet, because he is about to ) are sell outs. They are neo conservative Blairites.
    Our time has come at last.
    We have no alternative now. I am a European, I will not allow Mundell and Davidson, who have absolutely no mandate Up Here, to pull an iron curtain around Scotland and cut us off from our European friends, allies, and neighbours.
    They are beneath contempt.

  114. Chic McGregor says:

    Scotland produces enough food and drink to more than sustain its present population. It is called a food secure status.

    If there were a complete suspension of international trade for some reason, Scots would not go hungry, although they may have to give up some more exotic items for the duration.

    On the other hand, England has a food insecure status. They need to import about half of what they need. In a similar scenario, there would be famine and food riots down South.

    Sadly, such a scenario is less unthinkable now than it was just 5 years ago and indeed, increasingly easy to imagine.

  115. yesindyref2 says:

    @Jack Collatin
    Enjoy this:

    Mundell gets to be mentioned twice. He’s a useful tool in the box. Not as sharp as a chisel, not as hard-hitting as a hammer, or as gripping as a pair of pliers, more like the blob of blue tack you casually use to hold the nail in place as you hit it a mighty two-handed swipe with the hammer. And if that don’t work, use a bigger hammer!

  116. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Jack Collatin (10.44) –

    Hear hear.


    It’s like being a primary school, you get in a lunchtime scrap…

    ‘I’ll get you at three!’

    The afternoon feels like a lifetime, but then the bell goes, you head for the appointed place, and before you know it, win or lose, it’s all over.

    The bell’s awfy near now, eh?

  117. Effijy says:

    Well Fat Boab Davidson is really getting on with her job of
    RUINING Scotland.

    Does this latest catch on her Fundamentals of Democracy give her a Full House of either contradicting every word she has ever spoken, or has been caught telling downright lies.

    If her beloved BBC Propaganda Channel is to have her appear
    on the England and Local Colonies Bake Off, can I recommend
    the Eton Mess and the Tory Tart.

    So many Etonians have made a mess of this country, and Edwina hasn’t been on the telly for quite some time.

    Some of the Fruitcakes in her Party might pop in for a finally.

  118. Cherry says:

    What a surprising day!! Didn’t expect our website to be outed before it was finished, so it came as a bit of a surprise to Simon when he saw we had donations!
    Both Cadogan and Simon were calm and business like….however I’d had a major kitchen disaster when my over sink tap thingy burst and the water was hitting the ceiling. So when I started receiving email after email from them asking me to send thank you emails…well I couldn’t have a shower no water, so I was completely off guard and became a raving loony! That said it’s all calm now, people are donating we are nearly £2600 yaaaayyy!!

    Thank you people of Scotland you’re wonderful. Keep donating we need many many billboards to get this message out there.

    Yesindyref2 this first billboard has evolved from Proud Cybernat’s sticker campaign, we’ve kept it simple but the message is there. People we hope will question it then maybe come visit to have a looksee at what they are not reading or hearing in their media. Some folks may have never read one of Stuart’s wonderful articles, they can feel safe in the knowledge that we are not mad vile cybernats err.. emm..well we are nice!
    So well done guys give yourselves a wee pat on the back…canny wait for our billboards to subtly tell them we are here and we are NOT GOING BACK IN OUR BOX..

  119. Sandy says:

    Scotland 2016 tonight.
    Again, we are fed sweeping statements from the Cons. Scots are fed up of referendums, they don’t want a referendum on independence, etc. Where the HELL do they get that information. If they have a secret way of contacting the vast majority of the population, please let us know.

  120. Rock says:


    “It’s very clear that before Sturgeon announced this at the Conference, and before that when first announced, she and the SNP have talked to Patrick Harvie and the Greens, and agreement has been reached. As expected.”

    Let us hope so.

    But as I pointed out to Robert Peffers a few days ago, there will be a mandate for a referendum only after a majority vote in parliament. There isn’t one at the moment.

  121. Robert Louis says:

    Just a wee reminder folks, there are some great people who we all know, like G A ponsonby involved with the new site, which is aiming to tackle the BBC head on. They are looking for funds to place billboards across Scotland exposing the misinformation by the BBC.

    Well worth a punt, if you ask me, since the propangadist BBC does need tackled.

    Funding page at

    This is a great well organised chance to do something about our national state propagandists at the BBC.

  122. Thepnr says:


    I’m sure you really are a lovely guy, just a wee bit grumpy at times 🙂

  123. ed t head says:

    I just saw Yanis Varoufakis on question time seems to be the most real, the other people on the pannel are a set of idiots appart from Angela Ryner tryed to point out job loss I think the uk is f***ed indy2 is the only way to stop Scotland being dragged into a hell hole.

  124. Chic McGregor says:

    Ruth wants to have her cake and eat it (obv.).

    Unfortunately, it is only half baked.

  125. Dr Jim says:

    2016 The young laddie from the Greens was excellent and I don’t vote Green but the boy done good slicing up the no argument Tory twit

    Question time, It’s really just best not to look because they dig up the same walking brain dead audiences they find here in Scotland when they go on a Yoon hunt, the level of intelligence is limbo dancing low, Yoon and Brexit types seem to think nobody should be entitled to an opinion no matter what the circumstances and just get on with being part of the zombie holocaust
    The only one with a brain was a young girl who wasn’t old enough to vote

    Says it all really

  126. Smallaxe says:

    Jack Collatin:

    Jack have you been reading my mail again? 🙂

    Peace Always

  127. Ian Brotherhood says:

    For fellow non-telly watchers who may not know this – BBC QT is simultaneously broadcast on Radio 5 Live.

    *This comment is not an endorsement*

  128. Graeme Doig says:

    QT tonight. It’s come to something when Ken Clark proves to be the voice of reason in political discussion.

    YF was intellectually head and shoulders above the lot of them though.

    Don’t think I have the stomach to watch anymore English politics. That country has descended into a dangerous farce.

  129. Macca73 says:

    Last time round the establishment used “Big data” against us. I think these consultations are an attempt to gauge feelings out there and have this in storage ready to use at our disposal against the current Government.

    I’ve been thinking also. Who’s going to be the face of the next better together campaign? Darling won’t do it .. he was replaced because he was making an arse of it. Brown has sold himself short and not a soul would buy into his nonsense now. Would it be wee Ruth? They seem to think that she’s popular so in that case then it’s Game Set and Match in my opinion!

  130. crazycat says:

    @ Still Positive

    There are plenty of people who won’t pay Income Tax because their income is below the Personal Allowance; whether they have a Scottish tax code will depend on their employment history.

    They’ll all be paying lots of other taxes though!

    Until I checked for the purposes of writing this post, I believed the 2 letters at the start of National Insurance numbers were related to where the number was issued (which happens to be plausible in the case of my own NI number). But I was wrong; HMRC does vary the letters they use, but certain pairs are used for a while before they move on to other pairs as necessary, so that wouldn’t help.

  131. Ruby says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    20 October, 2016 at 11:38 pm

    For fellow non-telly watchers who may not know this – BBC QT is simultaneously broadcast on Radio 5 Live.

    *This comment is not an endorsement*

    Ruby replies

    Is that something new? I thought they just did Question Time Extra.

    I just tuned into Question Time extra to hear a woman say

    ‘The reason we voted for Brexit was because of illegal immigration’

    I immediately cut off and decided the prog wasn’t worth listening to.

  132. Stoker says:

    @ Proud Cybernat

    Did you manage to find a home for the duds? I thought the idea of giving them to some budding artist was a good one.

    Some time ago i seen a bit of art, can’t remember where, but it was very powerful and brave.

    It was a head portrait made up of thousands of tiny pictures of childrens faces and the further you stood away from the piece the clearer the subject became.

    Or if you stood back from the piece you could very clearly see who the monster was but as you moved ever closer to the piece the monster disintegrated into thousands of pictures of children.

    The monster was Myra Hindley and it was one of the most powerful pieces of artwork i’ve ever witnessed.

    Perhaps you could get something similar done using your dud stickers and the BBC logo? Then raffle it off or auction it on ebay or something and put the proceeds into 1 or 2 indy projects of your choosing.

    Just a thought!

  133. Richardinho says:

    Great find! Can’t wait for Ruthie to be asked about this in her next t.v. interview!

  134. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah well, who needs a big mac meal go large chocolate milkshake anyway. £5 on its way soon to GIRFUT BBC via son’s internet banking. Over 33% now.

  135. ScottishPsyche says:

    Donated to informscotland. Hope it really takes off.

    What I would love to see is as soon as a ludicrous or dubious statement is made on BBC Scotland that the billboards could refute it. Not possible with posters but a big electronic billboard as you pull out of Queen Street Station or halfway along the M8 ( just opposite raging Kev’s warehouse)!

    A pointer to alternative info is good enough to get started though.

  136. Ruby says:

    G4jeepers says:
    20 October, 2016 at 9:37 pm

    For those of you filling in the consultation please, please remember to remind them if we have to use the EC that we would like to have the ballots counted at the polling stations in front of witnesses from both sides and not have ballot boxes sent into the night as was the case last time.

    Ruby replies

    You would think in this digital age there would be something more up to date than people marking a cross on a piece of paper with a pencil and then having people count all these pieces of paper.

    Surely there must be a way to computerise the voting!

  137. call me dave says:


    Been listening earlier, still listening now to some nutters arguing that the UK is a world power etc… and shouting down each other and the two presenters up to now have never let a reasonable person make their point. It’s a shambles… 🙂

    ex-pats suffering in foreign European parts layoffs & pensions down possible charges for health treatment and so it goes.

    Oh Trump now that’s me had enough.

    FGS! Lets get out of this mad house asap!

  138. Still Positive. says:

    crazycat @ 12.07

    There must be something we can do to keep the holiday homers out of the next ref.

    Sometimes I despair.

  139. Flower of Scotland says:

    Great work with the billboards guys. Donated and hoping to see them soon. Thanks for all your hard work.

  140. Petra says:

    @ Cherry says at 9:13 pm …. ”I put this over on off topic earlier to day.

    Petra, Scunterbunnet dropped out last year and we three (Myself, Cadogan and Simon) have been working together since the beginning … we’re all very hopeful it will be a success.’

    Well I must say that it came as a bit of a surprise to me yesterday Cherry when Nana posted about Inform Scotland, in fact I was TOTALLY gobsmacked, as I thought that Inform Scotland was going to get off the ground in the summer of 2015 and was in fact no more. End of Inform Scotland.

    A group to counteract media bias and lies by using billboards was initially formed by Scunterbunnet in June of 2015 and the interested parties at that time were Lollysmum, Daisy Walker, Kennedy, jimboscotto, I Clark, frogesque, Jimbo, liz g, Brian, Hazel, jcd, Simoh, Puzzled Puss, Stoker, marydoll, Simoh, The moidart, nodrog, xsticks, fmnicholson2015, Tackety Beets, gerry parker, scotspine, Capella, Boorach, ms cloudy, Cameron Brodie, jdman, mcccat88 and myself. Taking a look at my notes I see that you, Cherry, sent two communications to Scunterbunnet during that time to register your interest.

    Scunterbunnet was absolutely enthused with the idea of using billboards to combat media lies and bias and worked his veritable butt off to that end. The aforementioned people came forward and were more than willing to put money up front, most were very keen to volunteer, there was a great deal of excitement, LOADS of GREAT ideas spinning around, legalities covered by Hazel, mention of linking to other groups and requests for a name. I proposed the name Inform Scotland which was accepted. A twitter account was set up and Scunterbunnet outlined a constitution, mission statement, proposed the setting up of a bank account and a website named

    Well that’s all by the way now. We dearly wanted Inform Scotland to get off the ground to combat the media bias and lies and we’ve got it now.

    However I’m posting this because I want to set the record straight and I don’t want Scunterbunnet to be forgotten. I don’t know what happened to him as at a point in time we didn’t hear from him at all and reckoned that ‘Inform Scotland’ had folded up. Seems that wasn’t the case at all. Maybe he’ll venture on here sometime or another to let us all know what happened to his ‘baby’. And out of interest was anyone else on the initial ‘board of interested parties’ notified that Inform Scotland was going ahead? I know that I wasn’t.

    Anyway Cherry I’ll back Inform Scotland 100% and ask others to do likewise. It was a great idea then as it is now.

    We’re all in this together with one aim in mind and that is to pull together and win Indyref2.

  141. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Ruby & Call me Dave –

    I don’t know how long Five Live has been doing this ‘simulcast’ with BBCQT, but it’s obviously not ‘live’. QT has always been recorded earlier in the evening so far as I know.

    Then this strange phone-in with Steven Nolan afterwards, although the QT ‘extra’ chunk is, presumably, in-the-can and ready for broadcast on R4 tomorrow? Or is it Sunday?

    Fucked if I know how/why it’s done as it is, but the ‘live’ phone-in on 5-Live is just mentally mental mentalness, the radio equivalent of cage-fighting.

    Ach, fuck the whole lot of them. Sooner the BBC disappears down its own Memory Hole the better.

    All the more reason to support this:

  142. galamcennalath says:

    Brian Spanner Tweets, The only way to protect Scotland is to have these nationalists anaesthetised.

    This would be the nationalists like himself and those which dominate Question Time audiences every week, I presume?

    Those are the right wing blood and soil nationalists which are a clear and present danger to Scotland, are they not?

  143. yesindyref2 says:

    Good Heavens, Brian Spanner is offering to buy us all a drink!

  144. crazycat says:

    @ Still Positive

    I mentioned the problem with holiday homers in my response to the consultation – didn’t suggest an explicit solution, though.

    It might get them thinking about it, at least.

  145. yesindyref2 says:

    My sounds were half out man, and now I found another jack splitter all is cool and dudey with the world

    Well, boys will be boys

  146. yesindyref2 says:

    Ooops, wrong thread 😳

  147. yesindyref2 says:

    Reading The National that explains the timing, I should have thought of that.

  148. call me dave says:

    Well AS told us this in 2014 but the Unionists told us we couldn’t but it’s quite helpful of Mundell to admit it now. 🙂

    Scottish Government could pay benefits to older Scots earlier, suggests David Mundell

  149. call me dave says:

    Hark! The Herald with a sabre rattling story…maybe/could but they like to look for the wee cracks to drive a wedge in.

    Too much upbeat news around and up with that they will not put!

    Greens could withdraw support from the SNP without ‘real change’

  150. woosie says:

    Maybe Treezamay has a mandate for an english referendum.

    Given the general consensus on QT, the question should read:

    “Are you fed up subsidising the Jocks?”

    If the majority of anglo saxons are so thick that they believe the words of the express and mail, that should do it!

  151. Indyref2 @10.58 pm
    ian Brotherhood @ 11.01 pm
    smallaxe @ 11.30 pm 20/10/16
    The only ‘tool’ the Right Wing Brit Fascists are using is Spanner, JK Rowling’s Court Jester, and smutty heavy breather of this parish.
    Ah’ll haud the jaickits, Ian, when you square up to Mundell the Michty efter skool.
    smallaxe, they’ve been reading our mail for years.
    Tony Blair refers to us as ‘insurgents’ because we campaign for Self Determination.
    Distorting Scotland last evening:-
    “They promised the people of Scotland two years ago that if they came out and voted in the Independence Referendum their voice would be respected.
    This is not the respect the people of Scotland were told. The majority of folk don’t want another Referendum.
    The Majority of people don’t want independence and the SNP should take this off the table.”
    Ruth Strictly looked a wee bit jaded, her Churchillian frown sagging somewhat, telling us all what the ‘majority’ of’people of Scotland’ (twice), ‘folk’ (once), and ‘people’ (once) want and don’t want.

    Time stopped for the Unionists on the morning of the 19th September 2014 when David Cameron fresh from getting his rocks off listening to Her Maj purring down the phone to him, came out of Number 10 and announced, I’ll paraphrase here, ‘Fuck off ,Scotland. Back in your box. I’ll make sure it never happens again. EVEL, Ya Bass.’
    In Ruth’s and Mundell’s eyes, we didn’t vote for 56 Pro Independence MP’s, we didn’t return an SNP Administration Up Her in May 2016, we didn’t vote 62% to stay within the European Community, her party didn’t get soundly cuffed, coming a very poor second in May. She didn’t vote Remain, but when she found herself on the losing side, where it mattered in Mother England, is now more Boris Johnson than Boris Johnson.
    The broadcasters edited out her ‘why would we vote to leave a Union into which we export 4 times as much as we do into the EU?’
    I did warn us.

    Prove it ,Ruth Strictly. Cite your source documents. Show me the graphs.
    You lie, oh Smirky Grinning Shovel Face.
    Prove me wrong.
    Unless you have wandered the highways and the byways and spoke to all of us, the people of Scotland, your wee free soundbite on BBC Distorting Scotland is just so much totalitarian mince.
    The vast majority of the people of Scotland ,80%, voted ‘anything but the ‘effing’ Tories,’ just like Cameron, Ruth’s Former Best Friend before ‘Big T’, assured us we could do back in the heady campaign days of Better Together’s once in a lifetime Liesfest.

    I refuse to contemplate the thought of Amber Rudd’s Home Office deciding whether or not I can leave Scotland to holiday abroad, set up a business, take up a job,or buy Le Dunroamin’ in Europe.
    The very thought of May Johnson Fox Rudd Davis and Gove ‘taking back control’, and what they would then impose on Scotland the Colony, should send a chill throughout these lands, no matter which party you follow.
    This is not Supermac Conservatism. This is the unacceptable shovel face of 21st Century fascism.
    We shall prevail, mes braves.
    Peace to us all.

  152. Nana says:

    Brexit: Alex Salmond slams Government for allowing foreign bankers to stay in UK but not other EU nationals

    Rosyth’s nuclear submarines: MoD says work to dismantle them will begin by the end of the year

  153. Nana says:


    Brexit: Alex Salmond slams Government for allowing foreign bankers to stay in UK but not other EU nationals

    Rosyth’s nuclear submarines: MoD says work to dismantle them will begin by the end of the year

  154. Nana says:

    Oops duplicate above sorry

    Theresa May Just Told EU Leaders That Britain Won’t Rubber Stamp Their Decisions Donald Tusk replies

    Brexit Dreamers Will Meet United EU Reality Check, Finland Warns

  155. Eppy says:

    Hi there,

    Just listened to John Humphries on R4 interviewing someone(?) about Theresa May’s meeting in Europe. Right at the end of the piece the chap said that talks were taking place with “the Prime Minister of Scotland”.

    Nana, any chance that you could post a link to this clip? (At about 7.15)

    It does sound from what he was saying that Theresa May and the UK have seriously pissed off the rest of the EU, hence not letting her have her say until 1 a.m.

    With Nicola, for all that the talks might have, by diplomatic necessity, been informal, it sounds like she has been basically given the nod and the wink, hence her confidence in putting up the mechanism of Indyref 2.

  156. Macart says:


    Read the Eric Joyce piece last night and TBF it was a pretty good bit of investigative writing from Mr Joyce. 🙂

    Watched the Tusk response on goggle box this morn. The UK media spins to their viewers as ‘May tells yhe EU’…, whilst the jist of what’s coming from EU officials is more ‘May telt by the EU’. 😀 LOL

  157. yesindyref2 says:

    @Nana, @Macart
    That’s a cracker about Gallagher, what an associate faker.

  158. Macart says:


    Isn’t it though? 😀

    He reads and writes ‘stuff’, he consults, he attends, but belongs to the square root of hee haw apparently.

    Scotland in union… chaired by those and such as those, staffed and advised by extremely invested snake oil salesmen with dodgy CVs. Funded by the wealthy (who else?) and clearly is being set up as the next indyrefs ‘grassroots’ (astroturf) movement for the union.

  159. Ruby says:

    ‘France must push back its border with Britain from Calais to the Kent coast and stop managing refugees and migrants for the UK, Alain Juppé has told the Guardian.’

    I reckon that would be a vote winner especially in Calais.

  160. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    Scotland in union… chaired by those and such as those, staffed and advised by extremely invested snake oil salesmen with dodgy CVs. Funded by the wealthy (who else?) and clearly is being set up as the next indyrefs ‘grassroots’ (astroturf) movement for the union.

    … and deluded enough to think a group like this will gain the trust and respect of anyone in Scotland, even NO voters?

    They sound just perfect for the role!

    Seriously, though, it is something I can’t quite get my head round … who is there who can stand up for the Union in front of cameras? U-turn-Ruth? What-day-is-it-Kezia? Wee Willie what’s his name?

    Or are the same liars as last time going to be enticed away from corporate coffers to stand and utter the same lies?

  161. Nana says:


    Sorry I’ve a hospital appointment this morning, perhaps someone else could look for that.


    Aye Westminster arrogance thinking they are running the show.

    Not read the rest of the comments so apologies to anyone I have not replied to.

    If you are able to please donate to the billboard fundraiser please do. The bbc are running the no campaign for indy2.

  162. One_Scot says:

    Lol, it looks like Westminster and the whole Yoon media are going full on crazy with the ‘no mandate’ for IndyRef2 angle, but to be fair, it’s all they have left, given that everyone and their granny can see Scotland would have to be absolutely mental not to vote ‘Yes’ this time.

  163. Undeadshaun says:


    I disagree

  164. Just some of the Labour failures names which popped into my head and easily googled abt ‘where are they now?
    Gordon Matheson, ‘Visiting professor’ Strathclyde Uni.
    Wendy Alexander appointed the ‘first’ Vice Chancellor (international) at Dundee Uni.
    Her Brother Douglas, Bono’s Bagman, appointed to international Law Firm Pinsent Masons:-

    “The firm said Alexander will also “bring his considerable experience to bear to help Pinsent Masons and their clients develop business strategies to respond to those geopolitical issues that impact on business from time to time.”
    Adding: “In the short term this will include helping shape the firm’s engagement with clients around the upcoming referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union in June.
    “He will play an active part in engaging with the firm’s clients at Board level to help identify and interpret key issues, including the role of business in informing public debate.”
    We vote them out, they leave or are sacked in disgrace, yet they are still there, in amongst us, deciding what’s best for us Proles.
    What is happening in Scottish Academia?
    If you aren’t a true blue Brit, you need not apply?
    The rancid Establishment stables need a complete clear out come Independence.
    PS. I gave up my ‘where are they now’ whimsy after three gravy trainers searches.
    The reward for failure and or disgrace. Nice wee manufactured sinecures.

  165. Macart says:


    ‘who is there who can stand up for the Union in front of cameras? U-turn-Ruth? What-day-is-it-Kezia? Wee Willie what’s his name?’

    In a word… yes.

    The twist in the tale I reckon though, is that Ruth and the Tories will front the show rather than Kezia and Labour and frankly who cares about thingy?

    Kez and thingy are there simply to make up the numbers and validate some cross establishment creds. The media north and south of the border have invested some effort over the past year in Ruth’s profile and promotion. Most especially since the votes in May and June. I don’t think that’s an accident.

    The big beasts may be used for walk on parts in support this time round, but I’d be genuinely surprised if any would be foolish enough to accept the poison chalice of UKOK leadership. Not on HMGs record of delivery of pledges made in the past two years, which has been entirely indefensible. That and they don’t have a thirty odd point starting lead to feel all comfy with y’see?

    Its entirely possible that the ‘powweeerrs that be’ may hedge their bets by letting Ruth run the show, but with the same or similar level of back up Darling had last outing. If she wins her career is made and great works await south of the border. If she loses, she was a five minute wonder, no great loss as a politician and who gives a shit as far as they are concerned. They’d also have far bigger fish to fry at that point anyway. 😉

  166. Macart says:


    I’m strapped right now Nana, but you can bet as soon as I have some readies there’ll be a donation. 🙂

  167. mike cassidy says:

    Gallagher is just a kiddy-on academic!

    His description here reveals how deeply involved he was (still is?) with the machinery of state.

    He was Whitehall’s most senior civil servant concerned with devolution until he retired in June 2010, as Director-General for Devolution in the Cabinet Office the No 10 Policy Unit and Ministry of Justice. He is now an academic heavily involved in the Scottish constitutional question….

  168. crazycat says:

    @ call me dave at 3.04

    Scottish Government could pay benefits to older Scots earlier, suggests David Mundell

    How hilarious that Ian Murray boasts about how hard he fought to get “welfare” included in the Scotland Bill, after the way SLab behaved in the Smith Commission. Did he and his party really support/propose amendments to the Bill (I can’t be bothered to check, but of course all amendments failed)?

    The SG (for which read SNP) should use its “vast powers” – just after Mundell has told him they don’t have the requisite power and would have to find a way to work round it.

  169. Ruby says:

    Nana says:
    21 October, 2016 at 9:06 am


    Sorry I’ve a hospital appointment this morning, perhaps someone else could look for that.

    Ruby replies

    Will do!

    That programme just finished at 9am so it might a a hour or so before it appears on the iplayer.

    I’m assuming the radio iplayer is still available for non BBC licence payers if not I won’t be able to do anything.

    I hope your hospital appointment goes well. Treat yourself to something really nice when it’s over!

  170. Ruby says:

    I did type a post with a load of links to foreign newspapers but it hasn’t appeared perhaps there were too many links.

    What I was suggesting was that the way to avoid to biased British media is to read foreign newspapers.

    I’ll try post just one link at a time


  171. Ruby says:

    Here’s a Spanish one

    Theresa May and the witch called Brussels

    Theresa May y esa bruja llamada Bruselas

  172. orri says:

    Never got why people didn’t see the inherent farce of the “EdStone” being made of limestone. After all it’s not the most immutable of materials. . Water erosion might take a bit of time though.

    On the other hand the oft quoted “line in the sand” that Rooth la Mooth is so fond of is as much use as when King Canute tried. When the tide comes in it’ll get washed away.

  173. One_Scot says:

    Not sure it would have world wide support, but the Yoons now believe the only chance they have of winning IndyRef2 is by gassing Independence supporters,

    Seriously, we have to save Scotland from these people.

  174. Tam Jardine says:


    I don’t know how to turn it into a wee clip but Today can be accessed at the following link (and is available now).

    The interview about 7.15 (01.15) in with Manfred Webber is worth a listen. He doesn’t hold back and I think John Humphreys is a bit taken aback by how annoyed he is.

    Positives for Manfred in the whole brexit experience appear to be 1. the pound tanking, 2. Scotland’s intention to stay in, 3. The effect the economic damage has had on galvanising other country’s support for staying in the EU

    Good stuff- nice find.

  175. Andrew McLean says:

    Radio 4,

    I listen to this morning. Just because there is less SNP bad, anyway it was amazing listening to reports of our PM being ignored, she made a speech about 1 am, just as the guests were leaving, no one applauded, she was left in “stony silence”, but its not a snub, Oh No! Definitely not a snub, you see its another example of how the EU is so badly organised.
    Were it better organised she would have been allowed to speak at the start, but dammed heath and safety stepped in and insisted she wait till all the knives have been taken in.

    But on a sadder moment, as I post this 50 years ago, around now a disaster was unfolding in Aberfan, Wales, I was very moved by John Humphry’s report. I was even more moved by his warning, in summing up he said “The children in these graves were betrayed by the men in power” “If Aberfan stands for anything today it stands for,, Authority must always be challenged”.

    As a democrat, I agree those in power need to be held to account, since the days of ancient Greece, the first republic and the dialectic between the patrician and plebeian down through the centuries, to today, the need for an effective opposition, and Edmund Burke’s unbiased fourth estate is as much, no, even more of a necessity, it’s an imperative in a world where cheap comment is abundant, and the analytical mind and thoughtful discourse is drowned out by a cacophony of ignorance transmitted down wires and over airwaves at 140 characters or less. Where opinion is presented as fact and there is no depth to where fools will not descend in reducing the argument to absurdum.

  176. Clootie says:

    She is a Tory…what they say and what they do are seldom aligned.

    Cheer up….we have a macho name for our new platform of death and destruction – “Dreadnought”
    We are whisked ba to 1904 when the.Emire ruled…I feel better already. You will forget all about this article once you see Ruthie astride Dreadnought.

  177. Clootie says:

    She is a Tory…what they say and what they do are seldom aligned.

    Cheer up….we have a macho name for our new platform of death and destruction – “Dreadnought”
    We are whisked ba to 1904 when the.Emire ruled…I feel better already. You will forget all about this article once you see Ruthie astride Dreadnought.

    The name was announced as part of Trafagar Day. That famous battle when the union was almost 100 years old and Scots made up 20percent of the Navy…but the flag message was “…England expects…”

  178. DerekM says:

    What no May slapped bashed shocked slammed headlines yoon tory boys of the state gestapo disinformation branch hmmm?

    Oh there there dont cry we can send you some hankies,seems like your little jam savoir of the empire didnt go so well,cup of tea Mrs May being the polite civil people in Europe inter state politeness between officials is just expected between foreign diplomats by the electorate now have you had any thoughts about signing article 50 you do know until you do you are welcome to pop in for a cup of tea but we are afraid we cant discuss it parliamentary procedure you see,we are sure you understand have a nice day.

    Well ouch so Ruth mighty buffalo straddler BBC celebrity look at me polished turd of the tank loyalist brigade actually got something right i find that astonishing 🙂

  179. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Stoker

    The art student idea is a good idea. I am, though, receiving emails from distributors asking for the dud ones to distribute (as the proper ones are now all gone). They can be peeled with good nails and a bit of patience. In fact, I’ve even managed to find a fairly reliable way of easily peeling. You just flick the edge of the label a few times with the edge of your thumb and it seems to loosen the sticky from the paper.

    So, if anyone wants some more, let me know and I’ll send a batch of the ‘dud’ ones to you. (If you can’t peel them then they can be left on tables in pubs/restaurants, left on bus/train seats for people to pick up).

    They’re popping up all over the place and witht he billboards going up as well soon, the fightback against the BBC propaganda gathers apace.

    Yer tea’s oot Kay (with an ‘e’). Yours too Union Jackie.

  180. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    Ruth run the show

    I agree, that will probably be what happens. Which is good news.

    2013 and there was good reason to believe Labour top guns were an acceptable face for their Union. Their party had dozens of MPs still and could be said to have been Scotland’s choice at Westminster. They were the obvious choice to front a campaign.

    2017/8 and the same cannot be said for Ruth’s Tories. While they are the official opposition in Holyrood, then have one MP just. They are the party of choice for a much smaller group than Labour were. To defend their Union, they will be challenged to defend that party’s record in that Union’s parliament. That is a tall order!

    It will be a strong argument that we are all in this constitutional mess because of the Tories, so they cannot then present themselves as part of a solution!

  181. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Jack Collatin says at 7:13 am

    Aye Jack, It was the promises given by Better Together to the people of Scotland two years ago weren’t respected.

    The sooner more people understand that the better.

    Unfortunately BBC/MSM etc. continue to parrot ‘most powerful devolved parliament in the world’ pish unchallenged.

  182. Ruby says:

    Translation of the story of Theresa May & the Witch called Brussels
    The British prime minister’s tour of the seventh Dantesque hell of Eurosceptics

    Worth a read! Rafael Ramos writes:

    ‘Barca beating Manchester City 4-0 is unfortunate, but basically the fault of Guardiola and foreign players’

    In her 15 minute speech she was much more conciliatory than in her (Nacional Populista ?) extreme right wing speech that she made at the Tory Conference in Birmingham

  183. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    ronnie anderson says at 9:51 am and Nana

    As for Pretendy ‘Prof’ Gallagher.

    Just another Unionist Walter Mitty.

    Hopefully Glasgow and Oxford revoke his ‘visiting Professorships’

    Maybe a mass of individual complaints to both institutions?

    Yoons like nothing worse than being stripped of the titles and baubles they covet so much and which they think make them more like their perceived betters.

    Anyone know who to contact re: The Pretendy ‘Prof’ Gallagher??

  184. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…BBC/MSM etc. continue to parrot ‘most powerful devolved parliament in the world’ pish unchallenged.”

    ‘Rood Almighty – The Most Powerful Devolved Parliament in the Known World. EVER

  185. Grouse Beater says:

    Am in Gibraltar.

    Were Cameron or Boris to arrive on vacation they’d get lynched!

    More in my essay site next week…

  186. Phronesis says:

    Billboard messages can be extremely effective in directing minds towards the truth.

    ‘There is no discourse … that doesn’t have to face this trial of journalistic selection in order to catch the public eye. The effect is censorship which journalists practise without even being aware of it. They retain only the things capable of interesting them…which means things that fit their categories and mental grid; and they reject as significant or remain indifferent to symbolic expressions that ought to reach the population as a whole’

    Pierre Bourdieu ‘On Television and Journalism’

    There should be a rolling campaign of billboard posters as YES 2 gains traction- let’s expand the mental grid.

    ‘To be is to be perceived- Esse est percipi’

  187. Andrew McLean says:

    Grouse Beater says: 10:41


  188. One_Scot says:

    Judging by the current tone of the Yoons comments in the twittersphere, they know the games up. They now seem to be pinning everything on preventing Scotland’s Independence, by preventing IndyRef2.

    And ironically they still don’t get why we want Independence.

  189. Robert Peffers says:

    @crazycat says: 21 October, 2016 at 12:07 am:

    ” … They’ll all be paying lots of other taxes though!”

    And that, crazycat, is actually the most important truth of the modern Westminster Establishment’s, always cynical, mind-set and was first introduced by the unionist Parliamentary Labour Party.

    Their object was to move the main burden of taxation away from, “Direct Taxation”, and move it to, “Indirect Taxation”. Their main object being to make the poorest sections of the United Kingdom’s peoples pay the greatest portion of tax and thus away from the richest 10% of the United Kingdom’s population.

    Previously we did indeed have a little indirect taxation by way of what was then known as, “Purchase Tax”, but this was aimed squarely at that richest 10% as it was only levied upon such things as the more expensive items like mink, and other rare animal, fur coats, expensive imported French perfumes, wines, foods such as caviar, and the most expensive luxury motor vehicles.

    So direct taxation is levied upon income, profits and wealth and thus the richest 10%, who can well afford it, paid the greatest burden of taxation with the added, “Purchase Tax”.

    Indirect Taxation is paid by everyone even if they earn nothing whatsoever. For example a child spends their pocket money and thus pays VAT on their pocket money spending. Pocket money that has already had a direct tax hit on their parent income.

    An OAP, (who has paid tax and National Insurance all their life to earn a pension), struggles to exist and pays indirect tax such as VAT, Road Fuel Duty, Alcohol Duty, Betting Tax and so on. Thus the Treasury is clawing back large parts of the pension the pensioner has paid tax for all their life to qualify for.

    Indirect taxation is actually specifically designed to hit the poorest hardest. Look at it in a different manner. Taxation, to be fair, should be governed by, “Disposable Income”, i.e. income remaining after deduction of taxes and other mandatory charges, available to be spent or saved as one wishes.

    If therefore the main taxation takes no account of, “Disposable Income”, then the taxpayer, with little or no disposable income, is forced to pay tax on their non-disposable income which is obviously from income already including, ” … taxes and other mandatory charges”, as defined in the definition of, “Disposable Income”.

    This is the not so obvious, “Double Whammy”, used by the always cynical red/blue Tory Westminster Establishment in order to move the main burden of taxation from the rich to the poor.

    Yet Joe and Josephine Public never seem to realise this and focus their views of taxation only mainly upon, the now far less important, “Income tax”.

    Open your eyes, Crazycat, the whole point of the multi-coloured, “Westminster Establishment”, is cynically dedicated to ripping off as much as they can get away with from the poorest and most vulnerable members of the United Kingdom population and giving it to the richest 10%, This with a wee special place in that dedication for the sovereign people of Scotland. A Scotland that has always been systematically raped of its resources in every way they can dream up to take from and not give back to Scotland.

    Give us our Independence Westminster for, “It’s commin yet fir aa that”.

  190. Andrew McLean says:

    Grouse Beater says: 10:41

    By the way AM is not in Gibraltar. If AM were he would more often than not be found exiting Lewis Stagnetto’s sporting a box of MONTECRISTO NO 5’s!

    What GB is up to is anyone’s guess!

  191. Clapper57 says:

    BBC Question Time….sorry BBC Brexit Time….I see the natives are STILL restless.

    FFS put them out of their misery ….Brexit….when do we want it….NOW.

    Forgive them….for they know not what they have done…..but WE do.

    Oh to be a fly on the wall when it finally comes home to roost… thinks some serious shit gonna go down.

    We have TRIED to say be careful what you wish for….but it’s like talking a FOREIGN language….Brexit bible equals see EVEL , hear EVEL and speak EVEL.

    We , the Scots , currently live as part of a kingdom, and there are those in this kingdom who are so very blind and so very willing to be led by those who are also so very blind.

    And the branch offices here in Scotland want US, the Scots , to REMAIN in THAT shit…..WTF….do they think we’re BLIND !!!!

  192. DerekM says:

    What do they think of May Grouse Beater ?

    I really hope they dont have a large group of britnat tory nutters living there they deserve better got their own international football team and its such a nice country be a real shame for them not to grab the opportunity for something better.

    Have a great time been many years since i was on the rock i might have to change that in the future 🙂

  193. Proud Cybernat says:

    “And the branch offices here in Scotland want US, the Scots , to REMAIN in THAT shit…..WTF….do they think we’re BLIND !!!!”

    You mean like this…

  194. Meg merrilees says:


    Just listened to the interview with Manfred Weber – what a brilliant bit of radio. I had actually switched off this morning, about 3 minutes before it started, so would have missed it if you hadn’t highlighted it. Thankyou.

    Seriously, everyone should listen to this. The establishment is being told how Europe really sees Brexit. John Humphrey’s sounds astonished!
    It starts about hour and 15 minutes in.

    Good front page on the Daily record today!

  195. Dorothy Devine says:

    Grousebeater , may we send them ??

    Thanks to yesindyref and meg merrilees , I had read the gist of the piece on My Newsfeed from MSN but when I tried to read it fully on the Independent I got the message ‘permission denied’ – that’s what remains a puzzle to me!

  196. Bob Mack says:

    Just heard Court has overulled appeal against alcohol minimum pricing. It can go ahead.

  197. terry says:

    Scotland in Union and the Tories – want to cheese them off? Then why not print this article and present it to them at their stalls which are springing up all over the place. It would certainly put their gas at a peep

  198. HandandShrimp says:


    I read the article by Eric Joyce you linked and found it a fascinating and beautifully crafted piece.

    As someone who studied economic history at Edinburgh I have been somewhat perplexed by people like Gallagher of whom I had, until recently, never heard of.

    Eric has rather set the record straight and set my mind at ease in the process.

    I don’t have a Twitter account so I don’t see much of the silliness between people like Gallagher and Effie whatever (which until very recently I had assumed was a joke caricature account). I don’t think I am missing much. If I want SNPBaaaaaad I can read Euan or Torquil.

  199. Ken500 says:

    Minimum pricing can be introduced in Scotland

  200. Robert Peffers says:

    @Rock says: 20 October, 2016 at 11:08 pm:

    ” … But as I pointed out to Robert Peffers a few days ago, there will be a mandate for a referendum only after a majority vote in parliament. There isn’t one at the moment.”

    Aye” Rock. What you pointed out a few days ago was utter pish then and it is still utter pish now.

    Parliament, (any parliament), does NOT give out mandates to the electorate.

    Parliament, (any parliament), IS GIVEN, or is more correctly, “Mandated to do something”, by a majority of the electorate.

    The best any parliament can do is request it be given a mandate from a democratic electorate.

    Which mandates begins with a majority mandate to be the government in power in a parliament. Then, when that mandate to govern is withdrawn, that government falls or is mandated out of power.

    Here is the dictionary definition of, “a Mandate”.

    the authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election.

  201. Ruby says:

    Bob Mack says:
    21 October, 2016 at 11:20 am

    Just heard Court has overulled appeal against alcohol minimum pricing. It can go ahead.

    Ruby replies

    It’ll be the supreme court next!

    The judgement could be challenged in the UK Supreme Court.

  202. Eppy says:

    Could Stu pick up on the item at 7.15 on R4 this morning?

    I think that it definitely deserves a wider audience. It certainly doesn’t seem to have percolated through to radio Scotland, – surprise, surprise.

    I often give up on listening to the BBC these days. I used to be a R4 addict but the increasing bias has often put me off of late.

    On occasion I listen to Radio 4 and radio Scotland at the same time (one on an earpiece) and the contrast in coverage and ordering of the same stories is often quite marked. Some media studies bod could probably get a thesis out of it.

  203. Bob Mack says:


    I hope it is challenged. It will show exactly what lies in store for Scotland under Tory rule. Scots law could become meaningless. That focuses minds. Especially legal ones.

  204. heedtracker says:

    Anyone can call themselves Professor. Its up to academia to ensure that this farce with that bizarre yoon is knocked on the head.

    Watching SKY News instead of BBC vote Tory 24, no difference, shock.

    Theresa May ‘objects to attempts to sideline UK at EU summit’

    The PM says she will refuse to automatically rubber-stamp decisions made without the UK’s involvement, sources tell Sky News.

    She said the UK would refuse to “rubber-stamp” decisions made during meetings of the remaining 27 European Union nations – a reference to an “informal” summit held in Bratislava in September, the first without Britain for 43 years.

    “Mrs May said that she will not accept rubber-stamping EU decisions if the UK is not invited,” EU sources told Sky News, although it is understood she was not suggesting the meetings of the remaining countries should end altogether.


    Rule Britannia, Brexit means Brexit, do as we say, we’re the tories of teamGB, have a free union jack johnny foreigner.

  205. One_Scot says:

    When the vote comes for IndyRef2 in the Scottish Parliament, Scottish Labour MSPs really need to take a long hard look in the mirror at themselves.

  206. Andrew McLean says:

    the office for national statistics has just published this,

    Public sector net borrowing (excluding public sector banks) decreased by £2.3 billion to £45.5 billion in the current financial year-to-date (April to September 2016), compared with the same period in 2015.

    Public sector net borrowing (excluding public sector banks) increased by £1.3 billion to £10.6 billion in September 2016, compared with September 2015.

    guess how this will be reported?

  207. heedtracker says:

    On occasion I listen to Radio 4 and radio Scotland at the same time (one on an earpiece) and the contrast in coverage and ordering of the same stories is often quite marked. Some media studies bod could probably get a thesis out of it.”

    Yesterday evening BBC Scotland has Ruth Davidson really stamping hard on ref2, clear, concise, No, not now, not ever, SNP bad, over and over.

    BBC r4 PM show with Eddie Mair didn’t mention anything ref 2 and their 6pm peek teatime news had about 15 seconds of ref2 with Sarah Smith gentle mocking, in the last 5 minutes. And that was that for BBC r4 England.

    BBC Scotland does the vote NO or else heavy lifting most of the time, Eddie Mair and chums pile on at the vinegar strokes.

    Would these observations in Britnat BBC propaganda get me an A+.
    If like me you’re a vile separatist, Eddie Mair in London and the assorted BBC Scotland UKOK freak show from Pacific Quay, was one of their finest displays of BBC attack propaganda on Scottish democracy, that afternoon:D

    What’s rancid the Graun saying Scottish democracy today? Fcuk all, shock.

  208. shug says:

    I see the Court of Session has come out supporting minimum pricing. One interesting point is the BBC are majoring on the challenge was from the Whisky Trade Association

    No mention of Labour and Conservative being against it

    Strange that

    Must call Kaye and ask why

  209. Macart says:

    Just clocked that radio spot.


    I suspect Mr Humphrys wasn’t quite expecting Mr Weber to be so forthright and candid with his opinions. Oh, and ‘meeting the Prime Minister of Scotland’…. Brilliant! 😀

    Seriously recommend folk get an earful of this interview.

  210. Ruby says:

    How weird is it that the UK Gov want to have a say in what happens in the EU having decided to leave?

    When do they stop having this right to have their say? Is it when they trigger article 50 or until all is finalised?

  211. Fred says:

    Ruth Davidson’s political future in Scotland is all behind her! a bit like her arse. The sooner the pair seek a safe English seat the better.

  212. heedtracker says:

    Eddie Mair and chums at BBC r4 PM show are such a jolly crew, instead of even giving ref 2 a mention yesterday, they went on and on about the escaped gorilla of merry old London, for ages and ages. He’s a beautiful gorilla said Eddie. And vote Tory.

    Day before BBC Newsnight did an interesting thing on this ,

    BBC Newsnight ligger’s interviewed interesting campaigner in his 80’s from Brighton, then ligger rounds of extensive interview with, “this is a Labour bill going in tomorrow…”

    Top of the range, mega expensive BBC2 Newsnight, owned by a cluster fcuk of toryboys.

  213. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Ruby If the Whisky Ass appeal to the Supreme Court Scottish Gov should go back to the Court of Sessions for a Judgement on Scots Law being seperate.

  214. Macart says:


    You had a chance to listen to Sir David Edward lecture yet?

    He has a thing or three to say on the subject of council entitlements once A50 is triggered. (chuckles) 🙂

  215. Clapper57 says:

    @One_Scot says:
    21 October, 2016 at 11:39 am
    “When the vote comes for IndyRef2 in the Scottish Parliament, Scottish Labour MSPs really need to take a long hard look in the mirror at themselves”.

    Is that so they can REFLECT ? ….their mirrors are well and truly cracked I fear…..perhaps though if they did take a long long long long long hard hard hard hard hard look….. they may SEE themselves as others SEE them. As a F**king useless bunch of moronic w**ks subservient to their MASTERS at HQ on the good ship UKOK deployed once again to sink the bad ship SNP.

    Perhaps One_Scot, if you are talking Mirrors and Labour then the saying ” Trust is like a MIRROR, once broken, you never LOOK at it in the same way again “. Ain’t that the fff**king truth !!!

    Have a good day .

    @ Proud Cybernat

    LOL. That image could apply also to comments I made above re a certain non reflecting party as they are forever looking for a FRESH start.

    Have a good day.

  216. ronnie anderson says:

    Rule Britannia no more Russian ships will sail where they want to & hee haw the Uk Gov & MoD can do about it , other than take photo’s , great backdrop that NO SO English Channel .

  217. Ruby says:


    I did listen to the lecture but I’ll have to go back and listen to the part about council entitlements once A50 is

  218. Andrew McLean says:

    One point on minimum pricing, take Morrison’s, today in its supermarkets out of 160 white wines only thirty are cheaper than £4.70, out of 186 red wine 29 are under £4.70.

    But if your favourite wine is say £4.71 or £12.00 it will not change it still will be £4.71 or £12.00.

    I do have sympathy for someone on low earnings who say want to buy two bottles of wine, where it would have cost say £6. it will now cost over £9, where as if you were used to buying 2 bottles of £5 wine there is no impact.

    Where health impact is greatest is in those who regularly consume excess alcohol’ as a percentage and if these are from disadvantaged groups those tend to have worse health outcomes for the same levels of alcohol consumption, usually due I suppose to poorer lifestyle and diet.

    Anne Ludbrook did good work on this.

  219. Proud Cybernat says:

    The Blue Pawn…

  220. G says:

    How many people have died needlessly in the last four years thanks to the Scotch Whisky Association taking this action? And how many more in the two years prior to that when Tory, Labour and Lib Dem MSPs voted down the measure? Unforgivable.

  221. Ken500 says:

    Won’t it be great if the Tories stopped Scotland paying loan repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Cut Trident which will be going with Brexit. The US did not want it here in the first place. McMillian illegally dumped it in Scotland. The Tories had stopped taxing the Oil & Gas sector at 80% to 60% when the price had fallen 75%, losing thousands of jobs. The tax is now 40%. Untaxed fracked Gas is being imported from the US. If tax evasion was stopped eg whisky companies pay no tax.

    Scotland could have had a £300Billion Oil fund and full employment without Westminster’s crass interference.

    Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence.

    The Tories are trying to ruin the world economy. The Tories have deluded the English working class to vote out of the EU, because of UKIP. UKIP is £3/4Billion in debt. A busted flush. Farague is rummeraging around the US for funds. After milking the EU for years.

    David Davis is an incompetent ignoramous. Boris Johnston is a self serving, self seeking. Attention seeker. The Tories have deluded the English working class to vote to be poorer. The wealthy are getting tax breaks. The UK is the most unequal place in the world. Mundell is aiding Independence saying the Scottsh Gov could pay out pensions sooner. A realistic (UK) Gov pension £180? would stop the need for welfare payments. Pensioners over the threshold pay tax.

  222. Ruby says:

    OK I’ve got it now the UK will remain a full member of the EU even after article 50 is triggered and will have the legal right to vote in the EU for two years (possible longer)after triggering article 50

    The UK COULD vote in the EU parliament but the question is SHOULD they vote in the EU parliament now that they have decided to leave.

    Surely they should follow the principle of EVEL
    European votes for European Laws!

  223. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ian Brotherhood says: 20 October, 2016 at 11:38 pm:

    “For fellow non-telly watchers who may not know this – BBC QT is simultaneously broadcast on Radio 5 Live.”

    May I add that the BBC Ceefax service is available from BBC radio stations on modern TV sets.

    Thus non-licence payers can legally read the BBC Text News on Ceefax on a BBC Radio channel without actually watching a BBC live TV programme.

  224. Andrew McLean says:

    heedtracker says: 11:49

    “On occasion I listen to Radio 4 and radio Scotland at the same time (one on an earpiece)”

    Will that not mean that you cannot make an unbiased coloration as spatial information from the right side of space is relayed to both hemispheres, whereas information from the left side is mainly relayed to the right hemisphere, ?? You are head tracker after all?
    Anyway Why can Captain Kirk hear so well? Because he has three ears: a left ear, a right ear, and a final frontier.

  225. Ken500 says:

    The London Supreme Court has to agree with the Scottish Courts because Scottish Law is separate for ever. It stops Scottish citizens right of appeal to the ECHR. Tommy Sheridan was prevented from appealing to the ECHR because the Scottish Courts rejected it. Along with the London Court. The London Court supports the Scottish Courts right to be separate and upholds their decision and jurisdiction. Can’t over rule Scottish Law. Depriving Scottish citizens right of appeal to the ECHR.

  226. Robert Peffers says:

    @Graeme Doig says: 20 October, 2016 at 11:59 pm:

    ” … Don’t think I have the stomach to watch anymore English politics. That country has descended into a dangerous farce.”

    Ach! Graeme, “That country”, has always been a dangerous farce. It is just that you are now aware that it still is.

  227. Ruby says:

    ‘Experts’ like Carney must curb their arrogance


    I can’t make up my mind if it would be worth trying to track down the full article on Newstand or not.

    Same applies to this one

    Frank McAveety insisted that the city had been badly treated by Holyrood and should have the right to opt out of the present funding settlement and negotiate directly with the UK government.

  228. Proud Cybernat says:

    Just thinking outside the digi-box here…

    Why don’t Sky or Virgin introduce a service where BBC is blocked on your digital box? I mean, if they can control what sports channels, movie channels etc you get access to, then surely it is possible to block the BBC channel?

    Anyone know if this is possible and, if so, would you then need a telly license?

  229. Ken500 says:

    People are raising funds to campaign against the BBC but listening to it. QT is a joke. Just to provoke. Stop watching/listening to it. The only BBC channel worth watching is the Parliamentary channel to see what the Unionist ‘Psycho bastards’ (their own description) are doing, before some ‘journalist’ distorts it. Costa is becoming a right clown. The smug, ignorant Unionists are often called out by the SNP.

    Nicholson, Cherry Alex and Co often give them as earful. Great to watch. The Tories squirming. Many are really arrogant and ignorant.

  230. Clapper57 says:

    @Ruby says at 12:42
    “Surely they should follow the principle of EVEL
    European votes for European Laws”!

    Ruby , Absolutely Brilliant BIG LOL..this should definitely be a future hashtag…… #European votes for European Laws.

    lOVE LOVE LOVE IT….Have a good day.

  231. call me dave says:


    The ambiguous Herald headline confuses somewhat and you need to read the report to get to the real gist of the story.

    I wonder if the headline would have been different if the appeal had been successful… 🙂

    Judge rejects appeal against plans to introduce minimum alcohol pricing

  232. Ruby says:

    Ken500 says:
    21 October, 2016 at 12:58 pm

    People are raising funds to campaign against the BBC but listening to it. QT is a joke. Just to provoke. Stop watching/listening to it. The only BBC channel worth watching is the Parliamentary channel

    Ruby replies

    You don’t need to watch it on the BBC you can watch it here:

  233. heedtracker says:

    “On occasion I listen to Radio 4 and radio Scotland at the same time (one on an earpiece)”

    That’s not actually my thing Andrew. I was responding to an honourable friend’s earlier statement about the BBC yesterday. Me in car yesterday, 4pm getting BBC brainwashed by BBC vote NO Scotland, until it got too much of “Ruth dictates” and flipped channel to BBC r4 PM and BBC England’s the greatest ever country in the whole wide world ever, radio 4.

    BBC is so corrupt now, its channelling its glory days of the Snatcher Thatcher era.

    Only remotely interesting thing about BBC Scotland newsdrive stuff, is how they specifically mix up the various accents in their relentless anti independence campaigning. SO their host is middle class Glaswegian, usual BBC front, then Northern Irish, posh England, not so posh England, bit of Welsh thrown in and so on.

    Its clearly all a selection of UK accents to hammer home the UKOK Britishness of their Scotland region. BBC r4 however is all honking upper class south east of England tory, bar front man Eddie Mair.

    Do accents matter to the BBC? They seem to. Top Pacific Quay Vote NO or else hitman Glen Campbell’s on BBC r4 politics stuff a lot now, but he’s eased off on his Scottishy accent a lot and no longer oozes out of the radio like tartan syrup. Maybe it just comes down to what the tory owners of the BBC want to think their country and regions sound like, as their country changes rapidly in front of them.

    Live long and prosper, vote NO, vote tory BBC style.

  234. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ruby says: 21 October, 2016 at 12:26 am:

    ” … You would think in this digital age there would be something more up to date than people marking a cross on a piece of paper with a pencil and then having people count all these pieces of paper. Surely there must be a way to computerise the voting.

    Oh! There is such an electronic version, Ruby. They use one in the chamber of the Scottish Parliament.

    The thing is that with ant computerised system of any sort there is also a load of computer nerds sitting in a bedroom somewhere coding a backdoor program to insert into the vote system and cheat with it.

    Such things can only works in a totally closed system and a countrywide or UK wide polling system would never be nerd proof.

    If you doubt that claim then ask yourself why the Westminster Establishment has re-instigated an old brigade to do just those very things. They are probably reading this blog and posting here too.

  235. Macart says:


    Its a pickle for them. 😀 LOL

    Points 3 and 4 are the most pertinent, which states:

    3. The treaties shall cease to apply to the state in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the member state concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

    4. The withdrawing member state shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

    So, as near as I can gather from the detail, after the 2 year period of A50 is concluded, they may still remain fringe members for several years until all negotiations have been finalized yet have no say at all throughout this period. Its what’s known as yer akchul clusterf**k.

  236. Thepnr says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    I’m afraid that you need a TV license in the UK to wtach any program as it is being broadcast by any channel. It doesn’t matter either whether you watch it on a TV, computer, tablet or phone.

    You can watch video on demand subscriptions services like Netflix, Amazon Prime ect. You can also watch all the catch-up sevices with the exception of the BBC since the st September.

    Simple description here

    Sorry page is not readable if you archive it.

  237. Ruby says:

    Robert Peffers says
    The thing is that with ant computerised system of any sort there is also a load of computer nerds sitting in a bedroom somewhere coding a backdoor program to insert into the vote system and cheat with it.

    Ruby replies

    These computer nerds are probably also sitting in their bedroom trying to hack into your bank account but hopefully they don’t manage it. Perhaps whoever designs the online banking websites could create a secure digital voting system.

    I suppose we would have to weight up whether the postal vote nerds or the digital nerds do the most damage.

  238. donnywho says:

    The one thing that is apparent with Ms May in Europe yesterday was that the BBC was ignored and treated as the propaganda arm of the UK government.

    It was quite shocking to watch, only because you are so used to deference to their power.

    So when they are treated with the respect they deserve (eg None)it is a jolt to you perceived reality.

    But it shows that they cannot cope with disdain!

  239. Valerie says:

    Good to know the high heid yins in EU made May wait until waiters had cleared the plates at 1am, before they allowed her a 5 min statement on Brexit – then they ignored her.

    She will start to realise the poison chalice she possesses. EU have the bit between their teeth, and will continue to show their displeasure at being used as the UKs whipping boy for decades.

    Good to hear about the decision on minimum pricing, and SNP are keen to get on with it.

    Big day for John Nicolson in HoC, as first SNP MP to present a private members Bill, but despite Labour support, I wonder if it will proceed, lots of nasty Tories making spurious complaints.

  240. Grouse Beater says:

    Andrew McLean: “What GB is up to is anyone’s guess!”

    Gibraltar Literary Festival. 🙂

  241. Jack Murphy says:

    Paul D said at 5:47 pm yesterday:-

    Comments? On a Scottish Politics article on the BBC? How did that happen?
    Someone will be getting their jotters.”

    You’re right Paul D—BBC Scotland DOES NOT DO COMMENTS.—“This entry is now closed for comments.”

    The British Broadcasting Corporation in Scotland put an embargo on them 2-3 years ago.

  242. Ruby says:


    It all sounds very complicated!

    Am I right in thinking that all Theresa May said in her 5 minute after midnight speech was to say

    ‘UK remains IN the EU until the moment when it’s officially out’

    That sounds a bit like a threat!

  243. Legerwood says:

    G. @ 12.34

    You are wrong about the Tories and LibDems voting against the minimum pricing bill

    The minimum pricing bill was passed by 86 votes to 2 against with 32 abstentions. Guess who abstained?

    Malcolm Chisholm voted for the bill.

  244. call me dave says:

    SNP wins alcohol minimum price court battle: Hootsman headline.

    Scotch Whisky Ass.(thanks Ronnie) said the industry may now appeal the decision to the Supreme Court in London.

  245. Papadox says:

    May and her cohorts should remember. Beware of the mouse that turns, there’s a lot of mice circling the Westminster wounded beast.

  246. Macart says:


    Hard to say really. All we’re getting in the main is the UK filtered version. What is certain is that it was a very short speech late on and was apparently not received particularly well by the relevant parties.

    I’d say Manfred Weber’s responses to John Humphrys questions are nearer the mark though. How and ever, as per the detail in my previous post, staying in and having any say are two different beaties altogether.

  247. DerekM says:

    yes @ Macart and it will more likely be before the EU elections that they will want all the UK MEP`s and bureaucrats positions removed or preferably replaced in the daily workings of the parliament.

    May can jump up and down all she wants she has one job sign article 50 or not she is not the PM of the European parliament neither is she elected to even be there the same is true for Nicola,the EU bureaucrats and MEP`s will need to debate this through parliament into legislation you would think the tories would know how a parliament works.

  248. orri says:

    Good to hear about the Greens being on board.

    Was recently reminded that there’s a long list of Westminster failings that have tied Scotland’s hands as far as producing the surplus of Green energy it could. The introduction of carbon capture had funding cut. Wind farms blocked by the HoL usurping what it was thought were devolved powers in the pretence of environmental protection. It’s almost as though Holyrood’s plans to escape reliance on fossil fuels, or at a minimum reduce their impact,and at the same time be in a position to profit from selling power abroad was deliberately sabotaged.

    Wonder how fast an attempt will be made by Westminster to convince the Greens that they’ve changed then I’ve no doubt they will back a second referendum should push come to shove. Especially when Westminster have already imposed fraking in England and may very well use some excuse of an emergency measure to gain energy security to override Holyrood and impose it here.

  249. Legerwood says:

    “”Ruby says:
    21 October, 2016 at 11:33 am
    Bob Mack says:
    21 October, 2016 at 11:20 am

    Just heard Court has overulled appeal against alcohol minimum pricing. It can go ahead.

    Ruby replies

    It’ll be the supreme court next!

    The judgement could be challenged in the UK Supreme Court.””


    Ruby, the matter has already been to the Supreme Court which I believe upheld the decision of the Scottish Courts. The Scottish Whisky Association and their supporters from some European drinks companies then appealed to the European Court of Justice. That court said that they thought that it did fall foul of European legislation.

    The ECU then sent it back to the Scottish Courts for a final ruling. The Scottish Courts decided that the Health benefits trumped EU legislation and denied the Whisky association’s appeal.

    There are further appeal routes.

    When the Bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament in 2012 the Tories and LibDems supported it. I believe Labour abstained but Malcolm Chisholm voted for the bill.

  250. Grouse Beater says:

    “What do they think of May, Grouse Beater?”

    They think her another untrustworthy Tory.

    Loyalty to Britain is only as antidote to possibility of Spain taking over. Mind you, Spanish tanks will find it near impossible negotiating eight feet wide winding streets with bikes and cars parked everywhere, and ninety degree bends!

  251. Ruby says:

    Question time from Hartlepool on You Tube

  252. Ruby says:


    I just repeated what it stated in this article

    It says:

    “The judgement could be challenged in the UK Supreme Court.”

  253. orri says:

    Wonder if it’s not just the EU elections influencing the decision on when A50 will be formally lodged.

    It’s a bit ahead of the May 2017 council elections so could be a strategy to improve unionist parties chances. However given May’s attitude I doubt she gives a fuck about that.

    On the other hand there’s still the little matter of the ongoing investigations into electoral spending that has a remote chance of forcing bye-elections. Depending on the timing and co-ordination should the shit really hit the fan the threat of UKIP might rise again to a sufficient level that they may not get anyone elected but leach enough votes for the conservatives candidates to be beaten. Pushing the A50 button at that point might be enough to avoid that.

  254. K1 says:

    Macart makes you realise how little the politicians really know/knew about how the EU commission/parliament actually functions. One of the best observations I’ve seen recently that describes this clusterfuck succinctly, on twitter…is along the lines of:

    The UK gov whilst In the EU demanded Opt outs and now that the UK gov is (about to be) Out of the EU demands Opt Ins.

    They’re getting nothin’ ‘cept what the other 27 countries say they are getting.

    I also found this earlier on Rev’s twitter which I think again succinctly ‘nails’ what Brexit was truly about for those who voted on the basis of ‘taking back control’. It’s a comment from under an FT article and should be spread far and wide to as many leavers as possible:

    ‘Can all of the closet racist who keep banging on about control just let up

    You don’t care about control and are liars if you say you do

    You care about numbers

    You want control in order to REDUCE numbers

    If the choice was between uncontrolled net immigration of 100 people a year or controlled net migration of a million people a year you obviously wouldn’t find the latter preferable on the principle that it is “controlled”

    This isn’t about sovereignty and you know it – as Martin Sorrel pointed out the question is what do you want to do with the sovereignty

    And all of you immigration fearers/Leavers/bigots are obsessed with the idea that there are too many immigrants – despite the fact that for net migration the UK is number 13 in the EEA, you feel overrun

    Because you just don’t like immigrants

    Read the news today with a revelation from one of Cameron’s advisers on Europe – when Cameron tried to renegotiate free movement with the commission the UK government couldn’t provide any data showing any substantive problems with immigrants; they even asked MigrationWatch to provide data and all they could come up with was a folder of press clippings about the immigrant impact on a hospital here or a school there – no hard data. All the problems which were being ascribed to immigrants were just caused by UK level policy – as the commission pointed out to Cameron.

    And Cameron himself admitted that the immigration “problem” he had to solve was a cultural one not an economic or services one.

    In other words, lots of middle English people culturally dislike immigrants even though the immigrants didn’t have any negative impact on them. What’s the word for people like that?’

  255. heedtracker says:

    BBC 24 toryboy tv news very stretched with May’s ridiculous EU speech, so the gimps have declared war on Russia, as Russian war ships sails down La Manche. Why dont they just send BBC toryboys off to endless tory war in the east? That would at least be far more interesting than their vote tory “squirrel” divert propaganda.

  256. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Ken500 says at 12:58 pm

    “People are raising funds to campaign against the BBC but listening to it. QT is a joke. Just to provoke. Stop watching/listening to it.”


    People are raising funds to fund a campaign to highlight the impartiality and down right politically motivated lies perpetrated by the BBC to continue to subjugate Scotland to those who are not as politically aware as us Wingers.

    Also, big fan of your posts. Informative and thought provoking.

  257. DerekM says:

    lol thanks Grouse i hope all goes well for them stuck between a couple of old imperialist nutjobs cant be easy should tell them both to get real and declare themselves independent and have a pig party.

  258. G says:

    Legerwood @1:51:

    “You are wrong about the Tories and LibDems voting against the minimum pricing bill

    The minimum pricing bill was passed by 86 votes to 2 against with 32 abstentions. Guess who abstained?

    Malcolm Chisholm voted for the bill.”

    You are talking about 2012 after the SNP had won a majority and were able to push it through. In 2010, all three unionist parties voted against and prevented it. The Greens supported the SNP.

    So this has been going on for six years, so far.

  259. yesindyref2 says:

    The media keeps asking the Downing Street spokeswoman the same question about Indy Ref 2 and keep getting the same answer “I don’t know”, but they didn’t report what was said earlier by the spokeswoman.

    “I don’t known, I don’t know and anyway Theresa’s out to lunch. Poor thing the menu’s in double-dutch, so she asked for flammetjes and burnt her mouth off. Then she asked the waiter what shoarmas were and he said lamb so she went for that thinking it was good old New Zealand lamb chops. But this donna thing arrived, so she reached for what she thought was ketchup and smothered it. Burnt her mouth off again. Then her coffee arrived with this jug of condensed milk so she reached for the cream that came with the shoarmas. Nobody listened to her talking for 5 minutes afterwards because they too were spluttering over the disgusting meal. Bloody Johnny Foreigners.”

  260. Dr Jim says:

    Theresa May isn’t up to this job, she’s a fearty who’s repeating the arrogant words she’s told to repeat and in her nervousness to say these things she’s appearing more and more like a total incompetent nut job just like when she was a complete failure as Home Secretary

    Her speech in Brussels looked and sounded like the visiting school governess dishing out the orders on what will be and then doing a runner once she said it
    Mrs May will find this approach might work with the meekened followers of the late Margaret Thatcher who like to have their bottoms smacked by the the female headmistress but the European heads of government are likely to have different tastes in political porn and will I think rightly dismiss Mrs Mays overtures as typical British eccentricity an be giggling amongst themselves at the very idea of the current PMs interpretation of “One goes mad in Brussels” with lashings of ginger beer, made in England of course

    Round one to the Euro chaps I think

  261. martin walsh says:

    Does the bbc have in its new royal charter that it has to support the unity of the uk , for the sake of an argument with a yoon i would like to find it if anyone can give me an answer or a link i would be very grateful been googling for ages and cant find it thanks , Ps keep up the great work stu

  262. heedtracker says:

    Go the Borders. Used to have a regular squeeze from Hawick, oh god. Rory the Tory owns this part of his Scotland region, which doesnt exist, except to flatter toryboy’s like him, he was explaining to BBC r4 Start the toryboy Week or something this week. Awful creep.

  263. ScottishPsyche says:

    Turing Bill talks out by a Tory Minister with help from his back benchers. Despicable people.

    NI wonder why there are no headlines saying ‘HUMILIATION as May SLAPPED down by EU’.

  264. Scott says:

    Government borrowing rises to £10.6bn in September

    Government borrowing rose by more than expected to £10.6bn in September, according to figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

    The figure was £1.3bn higher than the same month last year.

    Why not much about this on the news is our good friend the Tank going make a meal about it oh no it is not the SNP that has done this but she will still go on about our “black hole”

  265. Les Wilson says:

    ” @SJM339 – Scotland sold £50.5bn in goods and services to the rest of the UK in 2013. The rest of the UK sold £62.7bn in goods and services to Scotland. (source BBC)

    Despite 65% of Scotland’s exports going to rUK, we’re still a net importer, meaning we spend more with rUK than they spend with us.

    So, it’s in the rUK’s interest to continue to freely trade with Scotland in the event of Indy.”

    That is what I have been saying for ages, no hard border is coming despite their threats.
    They have far to much to lose in many ways.

    This coming from a posting on the BBC comments page.

  266. Stoker says:


    Can we have your take on your fellow Tory scumbags deliberate talking out of the TuringBill. Please, come and give us your thoughts, we’d love to know!

    Oh, and a wee birdie tells me that Labour sent less than a handful of representatives to debate the TuringBill so can we have a wee thought or two fae you also, Dippy Dug?

    Or have the pair of you eloped hand-in-hand into hiding behind Patrick Harvey’s lectern? C’moan oot, we need tae ken yer stance!

  267. Legerwood says:

    Ruby @ 2.25pm

    If the Scottish Whisky Association decided to appeal this latest decision to the Supreme Court then they would essentially be going round in circles. They would be appealing against a judgement that they have already appealed to the Supreme Court and lost. But I would not put anything past them.

  268. DerekM says:

    oops damn phone i meant big party not pig lol that is more our posh pal Dave`s mobs kind of thing.

  269. Thepnr says:


    The SWA might just quietly drop the case now. Any reduced sales and profits from Scotland will be massively offset from increased sales and profits from abroad due to the 20% drop in the value of the pound.

    Oh wait a minute I forgot about the tariffs! Am I or they the silly Billy’s.

  270. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Les Wilson @15:00:

    That is what I have been saying for ages, no hard border is coming despite their threats.

    What’s more, Teresa May agrees with you. On the radio news this very lunchtime, a snip from Reuters: “British Prime Minister says UK committed to trading freely with European neighbours”. So an iScotland has only to remain in the EU, and done deal!

  271. orri says:

    I could get it if the reason for opposing the mass pardoning of those still living was that there offences should be quashed. Or that there was a genuine concern that offences of paedophilia were ones that existed today. However if the Bill clearly stated that it was only for offences that no longer exist then the only conclusion is that the sticking point is over convictions due to the unfair difference in age of consent laws. The wording “under age sex” provides enough of a clue to that being so. I wonder if the minister who talked that bill out was motivated with a desire to promote the idea of there being a higher percentage of gay rather than straight convictions for paedophilia due to the statistical boost that age differential gives.

    If I was the SNP I’d be looking into quashing all convictions that happened in Scotland as being miscarriages of justice.

    Petty minded Tory bastards can’t even allow the SNP to prompt Westminster into something the Government itself was, so it claims, going to do. Politics trumps justice.

    I’m not gay, just angry.

  272. Chic McGregor says:

    “” @SJM339 – Scotland sold £50.5bn in goods and services to the rest of the UK in 2013. The rest of the UK sold £62.7bn in goods and services to Scotland. (source BBC)”

    Yes, seems Scotland is just about the only country in Europe England has a trade surplus with. And the only one where they control the accounting methodology. Strange that.

    Especially given our resource riches.

  273. Stoker says:


    These guys are going to be taking on and defeating our biggest enemy and obstacle to Scotland’s independence, The BBC:

    The projects supported by ayeMail are very important to our progress, things like shifting 3-tons of Wee Black Books, helping to promote and fund the National Yes Registry which helps facilitate vital communication and distribution channels between all the various Yes groups:–4#/

    I’m sure everyone would agree that our cause badly needs the continued support and tireless efforts of those behind these organisations so please help if you can folks. It’s extremely important and very much appreciated by all involved. Thank you!

    Scotland in Union has long since had a billboard campaign up and running but our billboards will educate with facts and evidence.

  274. yesindyref2 says:

    Nearly halfway in just 1 day

  275. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    With regards to the “Turing Bill”.

    As is done/tried to be done in Holyrood, so it shall be done in Westminster.

    The Unionist Parties cannot, and therefore will not, (not ever) allow the SNP any victory or moral high ground.

    Regardless if the proposed Parliamentary Bill is beneficial to the UK, Scotland or is just morally the right thing to do.

    The Union trumps all (and always will, GSTQ etc. etc.)

    As previous posters have commented where is the outrage from The Ruthenfuhrer and Dugdale?

    Maybe if the Union is so great as they, (The Ruthenfuhrer and Dugdale) keep telling us perhaps they should move South of the Border and see how well, as openly homosexual women with Scottish accents they are accepted.

    Agree that the Scots Gov. should put the same “Turing Bill” forward at Holyrood to pardon those those convicted in Scotland.

    Surely The Ruthenfuhrer and Dugdale wouldn’t vote against or abstain such a Bill in Hollyrood, would they????

  276. Robert Graham says:

    O/T Has anyone been following Andrew Neil’s comments over the past few days regarding the Tory assault on child migrants from the jungle in Calais , dental checks etc and age verification that have rightly sickened most normal people but for some reason has him frothing at the mouth with incandescent rage he was on the same rant last night on his comedy show and backed up by Portillo and a silent Labour MP Chuka Umunna , he also had the UKIP former leadership contender Suzanne Evans who stated unchallenged that UKIP were the Third most supported party in the UK when they in fact fall way behind the Greens, anyway as usual this party were given kid glove treatment possibly because of Brillo nuts right wing credentials, I used to view his program as a lighthearted dig at politics in general but watching last night I had this feeling of a underlying sinister real black agenda driven psychopath at work trying to cover his work with dry humour , and he probably would like to see The Donald as President, I wonder how much influence he has in News manipulation at the BBC , I doubt he is just a presenter he is right at the heart of BBC propaganda.

  277. Stoker says:

    Proud Cybernat on 21 October, 2016 at 10:16 am:

    Good news, waste not want not!
    Whats the max you can supply?
    I’d take a couple of hundred off your hands.
    Would happily cover P & P if need be.

    Feck, am ah poet an ah dinny no it!

  278. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Stoker

    Stickies. No probs. I’ll get a supply sent out to you. (Send the delivert details to peepthebeeb [at] gmail [dot] com (nae spaces, brackets etc.

    Anyone else want any of the ‘difficult’ BBC MISREPORTING SCOTLAND stickies, pleae do likewise.

    (Note: there is still a small amount from the original crowdfund to cover postage/stationery etc).

    First come, first serve basis.

  279. Alastair says:

    I think Im going to like “Carry on Brexit”

    My sides are sore with this one…
    “Barnier wants French to be the working language in Brexit negotiations with Britain,” a source told Reuters.

  280. Breeks says:

    Don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the way the BBC is going on about the Russian fleet being escorted through the channel by the Royal Navy.

    You’d think it was Operation Cerberus, when the Kreigsmarine made the famous Channel Dash in 1942 when the Sharnhorst, Gniesenau and Prinz Eugene dashed through the Channel heading home to Nazi Germany under the massive guns of the South coast and aircraft of wartime Britain.

    Still… at least a Royal Navy Destroyer managed to turn up in time, not a day late, like when the Russian fleet paid an unscheduled visit to Scotland back in 2014…

  281. Arbroath1320 says:

    So Russian navy is moving part of its fleet from Murmansk to the Med. Now I am no expert but I think to do so you really do need to sail past the UK.

    In 2014 the Russian fleet took shelter in the Moray Firth due to severely bad weather. The route they are taking this time protects them a bit from any bad weather.

    In fairness the appearance in 2014 in the Moray Firth did give our reserve navy (allegedly) a great chance to try out their new fangled interwebnettery thingy to warn Portsmouth of the arrival of the Russian fleet. I can only assume the interwebnettery thingy was not working at the Portsmouth end because as Breeks points out the navy arrived on scene AFTER the Russians had departed! 😀

    I can only assume the Russian fleet were feeling rather sorry to have missed the Royal Navy in 2014 so have deliberately chosen to sail down East coast of England and through English Channel to give the R.N. a better chance of catching up with them. 😛

    Let’s face it you don’t get too many chance to show of your BIG aircraft carrier to poorer wee countries like the broken (dis)United Kingdom. 😀

  282. manandboy says:

    As of October 8, and courtesy of both our resident brilliant and astute geniuses (that’s maybe a tad thick isn’t it), we have entered a new era in British politics, which has huge significance for Scottish Independence.

    For as Theresa May has emerged from the UKIP branded cocoon, newly born again into a new political world, Scotland is faced with a new choice. Or rather, Scotland’s No voters are faced with a new choice.

    In 2014, Scotland’s choice was between an Independent Scottish SNP Government or a Conservative and Unionist Government at Westminster.
    But now, in IndyRef2, with Brexit and the Tory lurch to the xenophobic right, the choice is as before, except that the Westminster Government will be made up of the Conservative and UKIP party, and the UK will be a whole lot poorer. Broad shoulders just became frozen shoulders.

    The choice is Independence with SNP in Scotland versus living under Conservative/UKIP rule in Westminster.

    It is my view that this choice should be given a very high profile from here on in to the Referendum.

    I don’t think too many Scots fancy being governed by a UKIP/Tory Government

  283. Dr Jim says:

    How do you follow a boat every STEP of the way
    Anyway that big Russian carrier should be fined for pollution have you seen the smoke coming out of that thing, how is it powered? a wood burning stove? spare tyres?
    Why’s Patrick Harvie’s party waving their arms and doing the hokey cokey in his conference when they should be waving at those Russian fellas for making all that black smoke

    Partick Harvies party is in favour of free speech for everybody…except Wings over Scotland apparently
    Maybe if they didnae do stupid things like attunement waving and hokey cokeying moments folk wouldnae laugh so much
    C’mon Patrick nobody is going to say this seems in any way grown up politickyness, I mean really

  284. Legerwood says:

    Thepnr says:
    21 October, 2016 at 3:21 pm

    “”The SWA might just quietly drop the case now. Any reduced sales and profits from Scotland will be massively offset from increased sales and profits from abroad due to the 20% drop in the value of the pound.

    Oh wait a minute I forgot about the tariffs! Am I or they the silly Billy’s.””

    The tariffs’ issue is going to be interesting. The UKIP MEP Mr Hannah an got himself into a right fankle the other day on that issue and the various EU trade agreements that governed tariffs between the EU and other countries.

    The minimum pricing won’t affect the premium brands of whisky because they are sold above 50p per unit. It will be the cheaper whiskies which are of course also produced by the drinks companies. Tariffs will likely be more of an issue for the expensive stuff.

  285. Dr Jim says:

    Email just in from Alyn Smith on all the Euro developments I can’t do the tech linky stuff so could another SNP member stick it up please and thanks

  286. Arbroath1320 says:

    Be fair Dr. Jim. The Russian fleet are only making so much smoke so that it makes them easier to locate in the busy English Channel.

    I mean in 2014 they were all alone in the Moray Firth and our glorious navy LOST them. This time round the Russians have obviously taken pity on our poor under supported, under manned under resourced R.N. and are doing all THEY can to help them out. … SIMPLES! 😀

  287. Dan Huil says:

    Most of you will ken aboot Aberdeen’s very own Thomas Gordon and his pivotal role in developing the Russian Navy in the 18th C. For those who don’t:

  288. Valerie says:

    I feel so sorry for John Nicolson. He played by all their rules. He was tweeting thanks out during the morning to Tory and Labour supporters.

    This week he kept saying Tories had assured him ‘no tricks’ during the Bill, then they shit on him.

    The Bill would pardon 50,000 living men.

  289. Breeks says:

    I also had a wry chuckle at Theresa May getting her 5 minutes in the spotlight after 1 in the morning. “Time Gentlemen, please”…

    I had another wry chuckle that Britiain is demanding to participate fully in EU affairs right up until the actual exit itself.

    But wry chuckles to one side, beware the Ires of May.

    If May really does find herself the laughing stock of Europe and the wider global community, it COULD provoke a petulant Britain to raise the battle ensigns and storm out of Europe without suffering the ignamy of forlorn and insincere exit negotiations.

    Prove me wrong, but Article 50 is a milepost on the negotiated exit route, but I fear there are routes to ending EU membership which are less amicable and could be a lot more abrupt. If Britain simply raised the drawbridge and stuck two fingers up at Johnny Foreigner across the Channel, then Scotland might find itself in an untenable position, bound to the UK, outside of Europe and with very little warning.

    There would be Hell to pay of course, but U.K. debts with Englands balance of trade and without Scotland’s resources must surely be scaring the bejesus out of the Treasury. The stakes could not be higher.

    If Britain does not manage to conflate the Russians into a dangerous military standoff / heightened state of emergency which suppresses unpatriotic dissent at home, then we should be alert to the dangers of some contrived or even provoked civil disorder in Scotland providing the excuse for a similar “convenient” state of emergency.

    An angry British government is a very dangerous thing.

  290. sinky says:

    On Ian Murray’s claims in the Herald that he campaigned for Welfare Powers to be devolved he should be reminded that he and Labour voted with the Tories to keep tax credits wholly under Tory Westminster control during the Scotland Bill debate in House of Commons on 9 November 2015.

  291. Ruby says:

    Alastair says:
    21 October, 2016 at 5:11 pm

    I think Im going to like “Carry on Brexit”

    My sides are sore with this one…
    “Barnier wants French to be the working language in Brexit negotiations with Britain,” a source told Reuters.
    Ruby replies

    Oh Mon dieu! 🙂 🙂 🙂

    I hope nothing get lost in translation!

  292. Arbroath1320 says:

    Just a wee thought here. 😉

    Wouldn’t it be hilarious if after leaving the English Channel the Admiral Kuznetzov signaled it’s shadow from the Royal Navy to thank them for their escort to ensure they passed through the English Channel unscathed as they could not have managed to do so without their support! 😀

  293. Ruby says:

    Turing Bill debate

    FYI you can click on the list of the speakers on the side to select.

    Hope that makes sense!

  294. call me dave says:

    ‘UK will not carry out Brexit negotiations in French’

    Gets curiouser and curiouser 🙂

  295. Hamish100 says:

    I can speak pidgeon French. Happy to assist.

    Ecosse dit rester.


  296. mike cassidy says:

    Carry On Brexit –

    with Kenneth Williams as General De Gaullebladder shouting at Hattie Jacques as Teresa Maybes Aye Maybes No

    “Stop Messing About!”

  297. Col says:

    Is there an indy event in Edinburgh tomorrow? I’m sure I remember someone mentioning something on here a week or two ago but I haven’t heard anything since.

  298. Ruby says:

    call me dave says:
    21 October, 2016 at 6:34 pm

    ‘UK will not carry out Brexit negotiations in French’

    Gets curiouser and curiouser ?

    Ruby replies

    That’s probably because they don’t speak French but if the EU side are speaking in French then they will probably have to bring along a translator.

  299. call me dave says:

    Home Office rules out SNP call for medicinal cannabis use

  300. Joannie says:

    @Hamish100 – as somebody who has slightly more advanced pidgin French, I think you should be using the subjunctive of the verb vouloir.

    So its – Ecosse veuille rester. Scotland wants to stay.

  301. Breastplate says:

    That Russian aircraft carrier is a bit scruffy looking on deck with what look like jets, not like our aircraft carriers totally uncontaminated by such things.

    We have 2 helicopters, a bottle of rum and a mop ‘n’ bucket.
    Let’s see them try to mess with the Royal Navy.

  302. laukat says:

    @Col – I think this is the event you referring to

  303. sassenach says:

    Just tried, twice, to donate to the billboard campaign, but nothing happens after I enter all my details and click ‘Donate’.

    Hope others have more success.

  304. Col says:

    Thanks Crazycat. Looking forward to it. Some good speakers going to be there.

  305. Thepnr says:


    If Britain simply raised the drawbridge and stuck two fingers up at Johnny Foreigner across the Channel, then Scotland might find itself in an untenable position, bound to the UK, outside of Europe and with very little warning.

    Yes, that’s possible though unlikely. Big business and the Cit aren’t going t go along with tat scenario very readily.

    “”There would be Hell to pay of course, but U.K. debts with Englands balance of trade and without Scotland’s resources must surely be scaring the bejesus out of the Treasury. The stakes could not be higher.”

    I think I missed the part where you haven’t explained how Scotland has already left. If they haven’t the Treasury still has all Scotland’s resources at her disposal.

    If Britain does not manage to conflate the Russians into a dangerous military standoff / heightened state of emergency which suppresses unpatriotic dissent at home, then we should be alert to the dangers of some contrived or even provoked civil disorder in Scotland providing the excuse for a similar “convenient” state of emergency.”

    This third paragraph is why I am responding to your post, yes there is certainly a wind up going on between BJ and Russia though IMO is merely to deflect from Brexit, the real issue.

    There would appear to me going by the likes of Question Time audiences that there is no unpatriotic dissent. All sounds very patriotic to me so far at least.

    I understand your concern at “contrived or even provoked civil disorder in Scotland” but we are certainly not there yet. I think “our” side raising this as an issue is counter productive else we start sounding as loony as the loonies.

  306. Thepnr says:

    Just noticed that Inform Scotland and their billboard campaign has just reached the 50% mark. Well done the supporters and the team trying to get this off the ground.

  307. Robert Kerr says:


    I cancelled my attempt to send money via paypal to “friends and family” since 20 pounds incurred a fee of 88 pence.

    Not good

  308. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Kerr
    I got my son to do my £5 through his internet banking, no idea if he donated as well but he liked the idea. I owe him £5 next time we see him!

  309. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh aye, I just sent him their bank details, sort code and account number basically.

  310. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, no doubt about the Greens committment to Indy (Herald):

    Patrick Harvie has called on Scottish Green members and supporters to prepare for a second independence referendum as he appealed for those who voted No in 2014 to “join our cause”. </i<"

  311. Thepnr says:



    No instead trust a Lib/Lab or Tory councilor to win Independence.

    I would say trust those that support Independence first, the rest not so much. Independence support United rather than Better Together. Get as many SNP councils as possible that might mean relying on the smaller Indy supporting parties so we should support them too.

    Never support a Unionist even for a fourth of fifth choice. Never.

  312. ClanDonald says:

    Is twitter down? Anyone else unable to access it?

  313. Iain More says:

    New levels of guff and bullshit from the Brit Nat Press and Media. I expect headlines tomorrow of MILLIONS OF BRITS DROWN “MAN MARKING” RUSSIAN CARRIER!

    Aye okay so we wont. They really do take the Brits to be totally thick. The Brits are definitely too thick to be Indy if they swallow the horseshit that the Press and Media pumps out.

  314. Breeks says:

    Don’t you start Thepnr….

    There would be Hell to pay if Scotland was dragged out of Europe, but because so much is at stake, disruption and disorder in Scotland might be a price Westminster might still be willing to contemplate as the lesser of two evils. We have options. They don’t. We are not desperate. They are.

    Scotland in revolt is the lesser problem for Westminster to deal with than the UK economy going down the toilet.

    I agree that winding up Russia is a diversion away from Brexit, and a good excuse to beat the drum for Britain. That’s exactly what I said. The latter point I made however was that should the Russians refuse to play ball, Westminster might require a new whipping boy to serve as a similar diversion, and there is a very real risk that that could be us.

  315. winifred mccartney says:

    Had same problem with billboard site – eventually discovered it is to do with postcode, you have to choose from pull down menu once your postcode is in otherwise you get a post code error coming up and your donation does not go through. Hope this helps because we really need this.

  316. Big Phil says:

    NaNa, always thought you were a stalwart for the cause,and i think is brilliant. Proud Cybernat,(loving your youtube vids btw), Feck sky and the bbc, i cancelled my sky packages(£85 quid a month) ,and cancelled my tv license ,saving 100 poon a month,kept the broadband and bought a wee android box and stream everything.I told the license board (as a householder,no name given), they’ll contact me in 2 years.I can now watch everything i want. Smashing.

  317. Thepnr says:


    Don’t be like them. I know how unhappy you are with the SNP as you often state. However, your talk of UDI, false flags, violence in Scotland is not welcome from me.

    So don’t you start Breeks…

  318. yesindyref2 says:



    No instead trust a Lib/Lab or Tory councilor to win Independence.

    Had me going there for a moment, I was going to ask where the real Thepnr had gone!

    Yes, we need to support the minor parties AFTER the SNP if we’re SNP, and hope they’ll support the SNP for later preferences after their own candidates. But there’s massive ignorance out there as to how the STV system works. It needs the SNP, Greens and RISE to separately explain it.

  319. Thepnr says:


    Prof Curtice, of Strathclyde University’s politics department, said the SNP could win outright majorities in around a dozen of Scotland’s 32 councils, up from two at present, and emerge as the largest party in almost a dozen more.”

    Being the largest party means nothing compared to running the council. Nothing to stop the Unionists forming coalitions which they will.

    Sounds a lot better to me if the SNP are in control of 24 out of Scolands 32 councils even if they need the support of minority parties such as the Greens.

    Independence supporters need to use their noggins and not be blinded by party politics.

  320. bjsalba says:

    There has been a bit of talk about listening to R4.

    I regard it much as GCHQ does when listening to terrorist communications.

    I monitor them to see what they are up to. I regard it as a propaganda monitoring exercise.

    I have also been looking at EU and foreign press sites since before the referendum.

    When it comes to the 4 freedoms being in divisible that is not new.

    What I have noticed is a hardening of attitudes in response to the arrogant and stupid attitude and luducrous public utterances of the UK Government. With close to 6 months to go to the submission of notice under article 50, I dread to think what kind deal the UK will get if they go on like they have done so far.

    Might help Scotland’s case though.

  321. Balaaargh says:

    @ClanDonald, 7:58PM

    Twitter itself is not down but its DNS provider, Dyn, has been having issues all day thanks to a DDoS attack.

  322. galamcennalath says:

    “French President Francois Hollande said that by signalling she wants to sever most of UK ties to the EU, leaving its single market and customs union, May is setting up her government for a bumpy ride.”

    So, Hollande’s understanding is May is going in hard!

    Scotland needs to make preparations for a smooth ride!

  323. Robert Peffers says:

    @Proud Cybernat says: 21 October, 2016 at 12:55 pm:

    ” … if so, would you then need a telly license?

    The answer to both of your questions is yes.

    BSkyB does not block anything. They encrypt their own stuff and just do not broadcast anything other than their own stuff and what the Westminster Parliament has ruled as statutory public services, mainly news.

    The second answer is yes you still need a licence. It is what its name says it is – a licence to view. It gives you licence to view live TV broadcasts from anywhere and of any kind. It is not a fee to watch the BBC.

    Although collected by the BBC on behalf of the government, the fee goes to the treasury. Then Westminster decides what size of grant the government pays the BBC for services rendered.

    The government probably make a big profit from the licence fee.

  324. R-type Grunt says:

    Twitter is down! I’ve also read the problem lies with Dyn but does anyone know if this will affect other sites because I’m having a nighmare with several at the moment? Soor, great article Stu & I know this is a bit off-topic.

    I’m just going to throw myself off a cliff. 😉

  325. Meg merrilees says:

    @Martin Walsh, 2.40pm,

    Here is the complete draft Charter renewal doc. The current charter is in place till Dec 31st.

    You want to scroll to Point 6, “The Public Purpose of the BBC”, section 5, page 7, fourth line down:-

    Not quite ‘Unity’ but I think this may be the bit you mean?

    Section 2 of the Public purpose of the BBC is quite an interesting read when you think of Dundee QT or some of the bias we’ve noticed!

  326. Meg merrilees says:

    Sorry – for some reason it didn’t upload action 2 of the new BBC Charter

  327. Balaaargh says:

    @R-type Grunt,

    Yes, there are quite a few sites impacted. The article I linked above has a list of known major sites. It’s going to be sporadic and intermittent dependent on your ISP and other factors.

  328. Glamaig says:

    BBC reporting how Wallonia, ‘a region of under 4 million people’ is blocking the Canadian-EU trade deal.

    I wonder how many viewers will ask themselves how the Wallonians can do this, when its Scotland that has the worlds most powerful devolved parliament.

  329. yesindyref2 says:

    Chances are it’s a bit of a test, and that it comes via totally innocent victims like us. I reckon at least half of us are infected, if not more. I’m pretty clued up, but I certainly wouldn’t guarantee any of my computers are clean. Advice from Government is pathetic “use a more complex password”. Ignoramuses.

  330. Big Phil says:

    its not the sites guys its the internet providers,the web is worldwide not just us wee shites, It may be a flurry of people that bog down a server, but the inner me says the are dangerous bastards.

  331. Cadogam Enright says:


    That was 50% in 24 hours – must be an all time record for a Scottish crowdfunder

    Like and Share widely on Facebook so we can run viral ads later

  332. Thepnr says:

    @Big Phil

    Yep, now that we have stated our intention to attack the state media via billboards and a website they have shat themselves.

    Theresa May will be holding an emergency discussion soon in downing street.

    We have them on the run. Westminster get tie fuck

  333. Big Phil says:

    Thepnr, i really cant wait for the Billboards to be on the news. just imagine they twats will call it graffiti. lol

  334. heedtracker says:

    Do you promise to tell the Ruth, the whole Ruth and nothing but the Ruth? Another UKOK hack heads for the slammer. As the BBC declare war on mother Russia, its amazing how many journalists ARE actually jailed in teamGB. Usually its if they’re meanies to royals though. Its probably just part of the deal for all tory hacks.

    Rancid The Graun,

    “News UK faces civil claims totalling millions after Mazher Mahmood trial

    Rupert Murdoch’s newspapers face more than 40 cases and calls for second Leveson inquiry after ‘Fake Sheikh’ is jailed”

  335. cearc says:

    BBC charter.

    It is hard to believe that this is a 21st. century document!

    ‘…it has been represented to Us by Our right and trusty and
    well beloved Counsellor Karen Anne Bradley, Our Principal Secretary of State for Culture, …’

    ‘…NOW KNOW YE that We by Our Prerogative Royal and of Our especial grace, certain
    knowledge and mere motion do by this Our Charter for Us, Our Heirs and Successors will,…’


  336. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, there’s still a bit of red mist around after the Holyrood elections. Mmm, red mist. Sounds like the name of a malt whisky.

  337. Chic McGregor says:

    They just can’t help themselves.

    Gorilla ‘mistake’ shown again tonight on HIGNFY.

    I was so annoyed I thought about finding piccie of Naga losing on Strictly and Googling a gorilla in a tutu as her winning play off opponent.
    Ed Balls might have done, or at least required less photoshopping, but I reckon they are keeping him to do Meatloaf’s ‘Bat out of Hell’ for that ‘American tradition’, Halloween week.

    Next up, QI, Sandi Toksvig (sp?) informed us that ‘stoor sooker’, a new dictionary entry, was Scots for a vacuum cleaner (correct) but added – from ‘stair sucker’.
    Her rep. is in dust already, bring back Stephen Fry.

  338. ronnie anderson says:

    May wants to cement the Uk relationship with the Eu after Brexit. She;ll be uasing that Lafarge cement then lol.

    Ah black day fur UK .

  339. Bob Mack says:

    Today we saw the shameful filibuster in that went on in Westminster against a very good John Nicholson Bill ,that meant it failed. Mr Nicholson advised tonight that the press were briefed by Ministers saying they could not allow an SNP Bill to pass ,regardless of its decency. There we have it.

    The object is to thwart the SNP at every turn. Psychologically this is intended to send a signal to the people of Scotland. That is if you send the SNP you will get nothing. You must send figures who are acceptable and who fit in with our tradition.

    In effect you are being ignored till you do.

    Very bad decision. They clearly know nothing about the Scots mentality. We are fighters. Knock us down and we come back all the harder. This fight is just beginning

  340. Fran says:


    A good turn out for Yes2 Aberdeen and WGD in Inchgarth tonight

  341. heedtracker says:

    Ouchski. Economist puts the UKOK boot in early. There’s going to have be a lot of reconfiguring of merry old England in the coming years.

    “Scottish democracy’s an Economist “spetre” and
    Consider the basic dynamic of the referendum in 2014: the nationalists had emotion and the thrill of the gamble on their side, while the unionists had reason and numbers. Reason won”

    If you can barely get a Euro or a dollar for a quid, by the time planet toryboy does rule the waves, have kicked out Johnny Foreigner, made lashings of megatastic deals with everyone in the world, except the frightful Europeans, Scottish currency isn’t that much of a problem, is it.

  342. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Does anyone have footage of when the SNP MPs were calling ‘Shame!’ etc?

  343. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, pound rose today in anticipation of May putting the boot into the EU leaders, and then when that happened OK it went up even further. Oh, not it didn’t, it dropped back down again. Maybe I got that boot thing wrong?

  344. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    @Rock says: 20 October, 2016 at 11:08 pm:

    ” … But as I pointed out to Robert Peffers a few days ago, there will be a mandate for a referendum only after a majority vote in parliament. There isn’t one at the moment.”

    Aye” Rock. What you pointed out a few days ago was cthen and it is still utter pish now.

    Parliament, (any parliament), does NOT give out mandates to the electorate.

    Parliament, (any parliament), IS GIVEN, or is more correctly, “Mandated to do something”, by a majority of the electorate.

    This is what the Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:

    “We’d have to say that that sounds pretty unambiguous to us – if you’ve got the votes for it in Parliament you get to do it, no matter what anyone else thinks or what anyone says.”

    Is that “utter pish” too?

    You only get a referendum if the parliament votes for it.

    Parliament decides what laws are passed, whether there was a mandate or not, not the people.

    This is what you had claimed:

    Robert Peffers,

    “as a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland, being sovereign, cannot be overruled and Nicola has a mandate to hold a referendum from the sovereign people of Scotland.”

    How does Nicola have a mandate when the SNP did not get 50%+1 of the vote?

    You can shout about your “sovereignty” from the rooftops.

    But there will only be a referendum if the SNP, hopefully with support from the Greens, manages to get a majority vote in parliament.

  345. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh right, the BMG poll with new stuff out. It ahs leaders ratings, so far not published for some reason by the Herald.

    Nicola Sturgeon +16
    Ruth Davidson +14
    Patrick Harvie +10
    Willie Rennie -3
    Kezia Dugdale -10

    But the don’t knows also tell their own story
    Nicola Sturgeon 13%
    Ruth Davidson 33%
    Patrick Harvie 54%
    Willie Rennie 48%
    Kezia Dugdale 38%

    Seems some people don’t know who Davidson even is 🙂 Who?

  346. heedtracker says:

    Awe. Its cute when they try. Although people use Bloomberg hacks for investment advice, apparently.

    “The Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh was restored in 1999, with the U.K. government relinquishing oversight of education, transportation and health. The momentum of the secessionist campaign forced the U.K.’s main political parties to promise Scotland an accelerated plan for more powers to help keep it in the union.”

    No wonder the banks went tits up.

  347. Tam Jardine says:

    OT Just taking a wee break from the Express. They have a piece on the Polish lady that spoke up on QT the other night. It is like wading through a sewer.

    Here is a guy who thinks he is being pretty decent in trying to restrain his fellow xenophobes:

    “Come on, fellas!
    The Poles are upright citizens and Christian based, they work hard and ‘keep the peace’
    The alternative is the burka brigade….”

    Mind boggling. Some fun to be had from these threads though.

    Bunged my wee bit in the Inform Scotland- was looking very healthy a few hours ago so cannot wait to see them SMASH the target (or SLAM or HUMILIATE or DESTROY)!

  348. mike cassidy says:

    Are the powers-that-be worried that an independent Scotland might not be so accommodating on immigration?

    Gretna the ‘new Calais’, anyone.

  349. heedtracker says:

    Seems some people don’t know who Davidson even is ? Who?

    Ruthie babes is a charisma bypass and that’s not gone unnoticed by her BBC handlers as she’s on general peek time BBC telly a lot more now, chat shows, stuff about their awful dance shows, British Cakes or whatever the feck the creeps deem to be telly these, Ruth’s got a lot to say about it all. Unless it’s the extremely not funny Susan Calman I’n watching smirk and wiggle. Same cringe “humour” what our chums in the south really enjoy. Even telling them its cold in Scotland gets a canned BBC larf.

  350. Chic McGregor says:


    Nice one re Lafarge cement, however they have recently ‘merged’ with some other fucker and now I’m struggling to get the Lafarge ready mixed mortar I used on the front of my garden wall for the back. Ach well, who’s gonna notice.

  351. Stoker says:


    See if this helps:

    Fran on 21 October, 2016 at 10:57 pm:

    Excellent news Fran! ((((( C’MON SCOTLAND! )))))

  352. Rock says:


    “I just repeated what it stated in this article

    It says:

    “The judgement could be challenged in the UK Supreme Court.””

    The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

    It is my view that this judgement has been made in the secret knowledge that it will be challenged and will be overturned by the UK Supreme Court.

    I will be happy to be proven wrong.

  353. Legerwood says:

    Rock @ 11.26pm

    The UK Supreme Court upheld the judgement of the Scottish Courts on the issue of minimum pricing when the Scottish Whisky Association appealed the decision of the Scottish Courts the first time. The SWA then took it to the European Court of Justice who made a ruling and passed it back to the Scottish Court for the final say

    Why would the Supreme Court not uphold the judgement of the Scottish Courts if the SWA appealed the decision a second time.

    Do you think the SWA are going to keep going in an endless loop? They have much, much bigger problems facing them now because of Brexit, eg tariffs, that make Minimum Pricing look like a minor itch.

  354. Stoker says:

    Thepnr wrote:

    “ that we have stated our intention to attack the state media via billboards and a website they have shat themselves. Theresa May will be holding an emergency discussion soon in downing street.”

    FFS, Alex, don’t be tempting fate! For the past wee while i’ve been getting a strong feeling, which is growing by the day, that not only are these bastardos going to attempt every attack trick in the book but watch out for new rules & regs and attacks on communications etc.

    Maybe even some form of heavy tax or other obstructions as yet unseen. In our wee battle for Scottish independence the FUDamentalists own the dying media but we own cyberspace and they know it. We have the brains, the facts, the numbers, the will and the determination. They’re left with eff all and they know it.

    If folk think they fought dirty in IndyRef2014, well, you’ve heard the saying, you ain’t seen nothing yet! They will come out with all guns blazing. Not only will they be throwing everything including the kitchen sink at us, they’ll be throwing the wall it is attached to. Be prepared for the fight of our lives folks!

  355. ben madigan says:

    “The Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh was restored in 1999”- I watched the re-convening on TV by chance when i called into my dad’s house.I didn’t even know what was happening. While the ceremony was on he was not to be disturbed ( we sat in silence, no comments) .He was proud of his scottish clan name and background and as i said it meant nothing to me at the time.We sat watching the programme until I had an intuition, an out of the blue thought: “these people mean business” “they won’t stop until they are independent!”
    I’ve supported scottish independence ever since –

    on your way Scotland- the wind’s in your sails and we’re set fair for Europe!!!

  356. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Chic McGregor Just buy a bag of Lafarge & mix it yourself & point over the other cement or a black floor tiling cement that is Lafarge cement .

  357. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Stoker (11.19) –

    Cheers buddy, as ever.

  358. Rock says:


    “Rock @ 11.26pm

    “Why would the Supreme Court not uphold the judgement of the Scottish Courts if the SWA appealed the decision a second time.”

    Why is there talk of an appeal to the Supreme Court then?

    “Do you think the SWA are going to keep going in an endless loop? They have much, much bigger problems facing them now because of Brexit, eg tariffs, that make Minimum Pricing look like a minor itch.”

    Yes, I think they will try.

    No problem is bigger to the UK establishment and its Scottish branches than the SNP in power trying to better Scotland.

  359. silver19 says:

    OT: Seen this on the news, Thought it was priceless by Jean-Claude Juncker:-

  360. Chic McGregor says:

    Thnx, but it was for red sandstone pointing, Kirrie is all red sandstone build. I remember it was 1/6th lime, but can’t remember if it was 2 portland + 3 builder’s sand + 1 lime or 1 portland + 4 builder’s sand + 1ime.

    I guess, either will be close enough.

  361. call me dave says:

    As reported earlier: The Herald.

    New survey reveals SNP ‘retain commanding lead in polls’

  362. yesindyref2 says:

    Saw a mention earlier about the Record front page, and here’s an editorial from yesterday

    They should not underestimate either the grit of Sturgeon or the inestimable anger and sensitivity of Scottish voters who gave the Union the benefit of the doubt two years ago.

    They might not do so again in two years.

  363. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Bob Mack says 21 October, 2016 at 10:55 pm

    “Mr Nicholson advised tonight that the press were briefed by Ministers saying they could not allow an SNP Bill to pass ,regardless of its decency.”

    Interesting as I have been convinced of for some time that any SNP Bill was intentionally being voted down.

    Good to see I’m not paranoid.

    SNP should be shouting about this from the roof tops.

  364. gus1940 says:

    Re Billboards:-

    Rental of Billboard Sites does not come cheap.

    Can I suggest that to gain maximum exposure we tap into the resources of the massive SNP membership and non-member indy supporters.

    There must be many of them who have houses or businesses situated in prominent positions suitable for maximum possible exposure.

    Surely some could be persuaded to host the erection of billboards.

    I don’t know what the situation is regarding the need for Planning Permission but it would be worth trying.

    We could even use the skills and assets of members and supporters for the provision of materials and skills required for the construction, erection and maintenance of billboards and even the skills needed for billposting.

    By avoiding commercial billboard sites the bang for buck by following the above would multiply the effect of funds many times over.

  365. Cuilean says:

    If Westminster did not allow the whole of Scotland’s current 5.4 million EU citizens a 2nd Indyref, 27 other EU countries would be very angry at this.

    I hope that the 27 would make it very clear that 5.4m EU citizens could not be treated in such a manner, without some knock-on effect, especially staying in single market / keeping London’s financial sector’s passporting ability.

    It’s a whole new ball game since 23 June 2016 & the EU’s anger at England’s attitude since then, is palpable.

  366. Nana says:


    Argentina: Hundreds protest British military exercises in UK-occupied ‘Falklands’

    Hackers Used New Weapons to Disrupt Major Websites Across U.S.

  367. Nana says:


    I’ve passed on your suggestions re billboards.

  368. cctxt says:

    Good thinking gus1940 I have a shop window in Hawick which will be ideal for a big poster – let’s do it !

  369. gus1940 says:

    Re billboards- In addition how about something about the size of estate agents’ ad boards to go in people’s gardens – they obviously don’t need planning permission.

  370. Breeks says:

    @ Thepnr at 8:14

    First reference I have seen to a “dirty Brexit”; that is Brexit without a negotiated solution…

    I humbly submit a dirty Brexit is just as likely to be a fast and dirty Brexit, and it is precisely where Scotland would be left by such events unfolding which so concerns me.

    What contingencies do we have to protect our sovereign interests if the UK metaphorically “does a runner?”

  371. Chic McGregor says:


    The way I read the Lisbon Treaty, a few years ago, it is two years until the leaving nation can force an exit with or without agreements.

    With mutual agreement the UK could leave earlier or indeed later.

    Without the EU’s agreement the UK cannot leave before the two years are up. They could stop attending parliament and withdraw their commisioners, but they would still be liable for EU budget contributions and EU fines.

  372. Breeks says:

    Chic that could be correct, I bow to your judgement, but I rather suspect we are in similar territory to any UDI, which is either recognised or it isn’t. If the UK effectively “UDI’d” itself and declared itself no longer a member of the EU, perhaps citing unreasonable intransigence on the part of the EU as giving due cause for the abrupt departure, then the decision could conceivably be given sovereign recognition in law or simply stand by virtue of foreign recognition from the US, China, etc.

    A sovereign country can declare war on another sovereign country, and throw all manner of agreements and protocols into the wastepaper bin at a stroke. It isn’t legal, but it happens. If the British asserted their sovereign right to exit Europe, there might very well be litigation over a messy breach of contract, but sovereignty is the superior principle. The British would be out of Europe.

    Ok, I hope that is a worst case scenario, but seeing the British humiliated and belittled by Europe is not healthy for Scotland if it provokes Westminster into petulant bloody mindedness. Until Scottish sovereignty is distinct and recognised, the U.K. still means us, and Westminster is the internationally recognised seat of U.K. Sovereignty, and to date, the U.K. Prime Minister is on record as dismissing Scotland’s capacity to enact its own sovereignty by inferring a second Indyref requires her permission.

  373. Gordon says:

    The Scottish Greens and maybe a few others will be on side with the SNP after a year or two of rule by shambles from Westminster in contrast to the display of competence in Edinburgh. They accuse the Scottish government of ‘not attending to the day job’ and ‘being obsessed by independence’. With the infighting going on in both of the major parties down there and the scramble for the top of the greasy money pole, I will set them a task. Rearrange the following: kettle, pot, calling the black the. Ruth Davidson and her party forget that the SNP government are bright enough to multitask. She knows fine that the independence referendum was a swick and the Scottish nation was duped and she’s terrified they won’t manage it twice. Plus, the opinion polls could be wrong.

  374. Thepnr says:


    “What contingencies do we have to protect our sovereign interests if the UK metaphorically “does a runner?”

    I said as much myself here on Wings a week or so ago. We are at the mercy of their timing and there is literally nothing we can do about that. YET.

    When circumstances change then we can if we so wish change our opinion. We both know that, for now, I’m trusting in the SG doing it’s best.

  375. Greannach says:

    Gosh. Ms Davidson does have a raather elegant accent.

  376. Robert Peffers says:

    @ScottishPsyche says: 20 October, 2016 at 7:46 pm:

    “Why does England want Scotland in the UK? Why wouldn’t they? “

    While every thing you state is 100% correct there is one wee very telling fact that even very few Scots seem to grasp.

    We get the same old story they have been pushing for centuries that is so obvious a total myth that even those pushing the story miss the obvious idiocy of their claims because the actual claim they make is the proof that it is a total load of old, well rotted, manure.

    This idiotic claim that England subsidises Scotland with, “English Taxpayers Money”

    There is no such thing in the account books of the United Kingdom as, “English Taxpayers Money”. Any more than there is Scottish, Welsh or N. Irish Taxpayer’s Money.

    What is true is there is “United Kingdom Treasury”, Revenue raised from taxation and everyone is subject to the main taxes. The main taxation, in any case, is NOT Income Tax.

    The main taxation has long been from indirect taxation and everyone pays that tax. The main one being VAT. However there is Alcohol Duty, Road Fuel Duty, Betting Tax, Tobacco Duty, and so on. So there is no such thing as individual countries or even individual kingdom’s tax.

    So the claim of giving us a present of English Money is utter claptrap. So just what is the right story?

    Again it isn’t rocket Science but simple, logical, arithmetic. Everyone pays taxes and everyone has government funded services in return. That is the whole idea of taxation.

    We all pay in and we all get something back for our contributions. So it is UK taxpayer’s money that comes to Scotland and the Scots pay tax on the same rates as the English, Welsh and N. Irish. There is a way to assess if we get a good or bad deal.

    First thing to realise is that the way, and the proportion of, how our tax that is returned to us is NOT done on an equal basis.

    First of all only England does not get a Block Grant for only England is funded directly from the UK Treasury and England is NOT funded as England but as, “The United Kingdom”, and only England thus gets the benefits of what Westminster chooses to class as, “National”, Treasures or, “National”, Assets. Such as the National Museums, Galleries, Ballet, Theatre, Opera. et al. are also much infrastructure projects like HS Rail, London Cross-Rail and the London Olympics Stadium. Etc.

    So excepting for England where it is almost impossible to work out the true extent of the English/National funding as it comes under UK funding there is an easy way to get a fairly good assessment of the per capita funds returned to at least Scotland, Wales and N.I.

    This is my examining the relative, “Per Capita Gross Domestic Product”, of individual countries.

    But here again there is an artificial anomaly, you might think this was deliberate – and you would be probably correct.

    In fact the Scottish per capita GDP is usually higher that that of the rest of the UK, (the actual, “Kingdom of England”), and is usually higher than that of any other of the UK’s individual countries.

    So just what is this per capita GDP? It is the average revenue raised from a given area divided by that area’s population. Thus the average sum paid into the treasury by each person in that area.

    So, as Scotland’s per capita GDP is normally higher than each individual UK country and usually higher that the UK as a whole then each Scot on average is paying in more that any other parts of the UK. Ergo we are the ones doing the subsidising. However, even that is a con trick for all the revenues from oil & gas are NOT counted as Scottish earned revenues but as from United Kingdom Extra-Regio-Territory and go directly to the UK treasury.

    Yet between 95% to 98% of the revenue comes out of Scottish territorial waters. There are also several other such scams operated by Westminster that cause revenues to be classes as earned by the UK but are really earned by Scotland.

    However, it is usually enough for the Unionist claims of giving Scots English Money to prove that it is United Kingdom money and Scots pay tax like the rest of the UK.

    It usually silences the shout Britnats without the rest of the arguments. Matter of fact Scotland pays in a great deal more than Scotland gets returned by the treasury even without the oil, gas and other factors being counted and, as Scotland has no borrowing powers and the SG must always balance their books it is not possible for the SG to run up a deficit and Scotland is a net exporter while England is a net importer.

  377. mr thms says:

    I’m not sure if it has already been mentioned or if anyone has posted a link to Ruth Davidson saying the words quoted by James Dornan SNP MSP during the debate.

    Wings Over Scotland had an article about what she said at the last October… with a You Tube clip of the whole quote!

    “On the contentious and topical subject of what constitutes a mandate for a second independence referendum, we’re grateful to the super-alert reader who unearthed this clip from BBC Scotland’s election night coverage of 2011, in which Ruth Davidson gives a candid and blunt explanation of the criteria required:”

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