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Wings Over Scotland


Posted on January 02, 1968 by

For off-topic chat. Duh.

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    37596 to “Off-topic”

    1. Cubby says:

      Clapper 57 I also think your comments are wasted here. They should be on MT. good stuff. You should try not to take any criticisms of your comments to heart.

      With regards to Swinson I bet many people in England probably listening her don’t even think she is Scottish.

    2. Clapper57 says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood @ 12.58pm

      Hi Ian, yes it would be nice to post on MT…but just have a look at the comment after your last comment on MT just now..( that is after your comment re Dave apologising)..why should I , or others for that matter, have to put up with that ….healthy debate..yes..abuse and accusations…nope….it sickens me and ruins what should be a lively and welcoming site for all.

      I know I am naughty for posting my comments on OT…will try and limit them…not that I think that was what you meant in your comment to me….see what I mean you get so paranoiac on here thinking people will misunderstand your comment because there is so much negativity and misrepresenting of your opinion on MT….it’s become , for some, a ‘my way or the highway’ kind of attitude…and a certain person telling you to …you know what “OFF” yesterday was shocking.

      Have a lovely day


    3. Clapper57 says:

      @ Cubby @ 1.18pm

      Cubby, I hate all of the negativity and think, IMHO , that calling people out because they do not support the SNP is wrong.

      I am an SNP member BUT I am entitled to challenge them when I see that some of them are IMHO are being way too focused on Brexit and the UK while seemingly taking their eye of the Indy ball…I may be wrong…you and others may be right….but I will never accuse others who support Independence as being anything other than independence supporters.

      Remember we do not know each other , we do not know what kind of lives we lead outside this bubble we post on….please please be a better person, one that I am sure you are and focus on helping us to win Independence because we are all human and need to act as such….let’s not alienate people irrespective of who they vote for.

      ps. Guess you deserve to slight me for my last comment to Ian B as yes it was targeting YOUR last comment on MT….this is an never ending cycle of he said she said…let’s us break it now.

    4. Cubby says:

      Clapper 57 I’m fairly confident that my family and friends think I am a pretty decent person already but everyone can always improve. I am also pretty confident you are a decent person as well.

      I certainly do not go around accusing loads of posters as being anti independence/ phoney supporters ( something some posters for their own reasons have tried to pin on me). I may think all the anti SNP/ Sturgeon/ Scotgov comments all the time serve no useful purpose at this point in time. As I have stated many times I have no affiliation for any political party I just don’t think it serves a lot of purpose to criticise the Scotgov at this critical time. I may be proved wrong that the mandate is not used but I am willing to give the Scotgov the benefit of doubt at present. If they are not planning to do something then they are putting up a pretty good smokescreen. Apart from that why would a political party that exists for independence do nothing. Logically I am sure you will agree that I hope I am right as it will mean an opportunity to gain our independence.

      No problem with your comment about my post. That was your opinion. Similarly, I have looked at my post again and don’t see anything wrong with it.

      We should never forget that Britnats cause great damage to people in Scotland and I will never respect phoney independence supporters on Wings. I cannot help it if some people who are genuine independence supporters think I am referring to them when I say that – I’m not.

      With regards to personal abuse I try to give people the opportunity to apologise if it’s directed to me from a genuine independence supporter but if not then I’m afraid I do hold grudges. We all have our personal failings. My experience is that some posters cannot accept losing an argument or being proved wrong and resort to personal insults. I fully accept it can sound a bit like a child saying he started it. But it is what it is.

      Similarly if an independence supporter posts unacceptable comments like racism I make no apology for calling them out. They of course do not like it and resort to personal insults.

      I also think we should also just cut each other a bit of slack. Ok Peffers said F off and it was not his normal response but perhaps he is also feeling a bit bullied as well. I am sure he is a decent person as well.

      Anyway going back to my initial point your posts up thread are wasted on here – again just my opinion.

    5. Clapper57 says:

      Hi Cubby ,I typed a response to you on MT under ‘The Contaminant’ thread.



    6. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      This is a post I did on my Facebook page today. It works here with a small alteration.

      “The last and biggest pro-independence march and rally of the year takes place in Edinburgh next Saturday, 5th October.

      March starts at Holyrood Park at 1pm, progresses up the Royal Mile to George IV Bridge, then down to The Meadows. I understand around 300 Yes Bikers will travel the route ahead of the pipes and drums and marchers.

      My plan was that my son and I would bus down to Edinburgh, visit a bra’ wee cafe we discovered last year for nosebags, then walk up to George IV Bridge to join the march. A pint or two after the rally then bus back to Dundee, leaving Edinburgh at 20.20, arriving back in Dundee at 21.55.

      That was the plan so I booked the bus tickets last week, only to find out, subsequently, that Chris and his Mum are leaving for a holiday in Greece on 2nd October so he won’t be here for the march/rally.

      Therefore, I have a spare return ticket, to and from Edinburgh next Saturday.

      Leave Dundee, Seagate Bus Station at 09.20. Change at Broxden approx 09.55.
      Arrive Edinburgh Bus Station at 11.20.

      Leave Edinburgh Bus Station at 20.20.
      Arrive Dundee, Seagate Bus Station at 21.55.

      Cost: £18 for the return ticket.

      If you want it, email me at:-

      bumfluffbrian [at] doonthetoon [dot] plus [dot] com
      (Remove bumfluff for the correct email addy.)

      First come, first serve.

    7. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Do you happen to know where I could get details of any buses going from Glasgow?

      Sorry to be such a lazy arse but things have been a bit frantic here and I honestly didnlt realise the Edinburgh march was so close. I don;t want to drive as last time we went to the park & ride at Hermiston and it was a total fuckin nightmare getting back, there were no buses, and that was relatively early.

    8. a few examples of FoI questions around imports and exports

      Sent: 18 April 2017 20:50
      To: UKTradeinfo, Team (Customs)
      Subject: Re: Freedom of information request

      Dear N,

      I am still trying to pursue my FoI request as to how production of oil , whiskey, gas and electricity are showing in the regional export and import balances and have been trying to use the statistics base you sent me

      I am struggling to find a table with the Import Export figures for the 4 home countries in your statistics going back ten years.

      I found this one for Scotland going back to 2012

      While I understand that Oil exports are not credited to Scotland, there does seem to be a substantial Mineral Fuel figure amounting to more than 20% of Scotlands import figures from year to year.

      How is it possible that oil exports are NOT credited to Scotland, but Scotlands consumption of oil is counted as an import?

      Cllr Cadogan Enright

    9. UK stats office explaining why tankers of oil are not credited as exports from Scotland

      (dozens of questions – they always answer te question you did not ask – but persistence and re-phrasing gets them in the end
      Fri 21/04/2017 13:12
      UKTradeinfo, Team (Customs) uktradeinfo [at] hmrc [dot] gsi [dot] gov [dot] uk
      RE: Freedom of information request
      Cadogan Enright

      Dear Cadogan,

      The following link will take you to the starting point for building your own data table. This is where you can input your own criteria to create the equivalent dataset of the graph that you previously referred to.

      The next link will take you to the page where the RTS archive of releases and commentaries are found. Using the drop down function will enable you to look back at the releases from 2008.

      Exports of Crude oil (CN8 27090090) are made up of two aspects:
      • That exported by oil tanker is allocated to the region based on the proportion of the employees of the exporting business located within that region.
      • That exported directly from an off-shore oil rig is allocated to the region which is nearest to that rig as we receive no information on who the exporting business is.

      Import figures are not based on the location of where it is consumed but is allocated to the region based on the proportion of the employees of the importing business located within that region.

      Kind regards

    10. From: Cadogan Enright
      Sent: 27 March 2017 14:40

      To: UKTradeinfo, Team (Customs)
      Subject: Freedom of information request

      Dear N,

      I am referring to the specific data set in the link I sent you below showing the import/export balance for the 4 Nations of England, Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland. –

      For 2016, It shows Wales in balance, NI and England in deficit and Scotland in Surplus on the left hand side of this link from your website;

      It is not unreasonable of me to expect that you would be aware of which Nation’s heading would show Petroleum and Whisky exports given the small number of companies involved and that these products are overwhelmingly produced in one of the 4 Nations.

      I am trying to determine if exports as depicted in your statistics are shown by the port of export, or the home country of production.

      It goes to the heart of the veracity of your statistics.

      Given the size of Petroleum and Whiskey production in pounds sterling, the statistics for Scotland look improbably low. I have similar concerns here in Northern Ireland, but an answer on Petroleum and Whiskey would satisfy my question

      I refer you to government statistics on oil which show £19.6 billion exports of oil alone .

      And value of Whiskey trade

      These two figures alone equal the figures shown by you of £25.5 billion for all Scotland’s exports during 2016 as shown in your figures.

      When you look at the Scottish Government’s total of international exports (excluding oil and gas) they show £28.7 billion in 2015 v’s your £25.7 Billion total for 2015

      Can you explain the difference – this is the essence of of FoI request

      Cllr Cadogan Enright

      ———- Forwarded message ———-
      Date: Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 10:38 AM
      Subject: RE: Freedom of information request
      To: cadogan enright

      Dear Cadogan,

      The Regional Trade Statistics figures are based on the location and employment of the businesses exporting and importing the goods. They are not based on the location of the manufacturer / consumer nor the location of where the goods enter or leave the UK. It cannot therefore be assumed that all Scotch Whiskey is exported from Scotland. There is some additional re-allocation of region done for Crude oil exported directly from offshore oil rigs but not that exported via tanker which is allocated by location / employment of the exporting business.

      The full methodology can be found here:


    11. more random selections from my file

      From: Cadogan Enright
      Sent: 30 June 2017 16:14
      To: UKTradeinfo, Team (Customs)
      Subject: FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST No.2 – attention N
      Dear N

      I asked you a specific question on 18th April (see below) to which I have not received a reply.

      In our correspondence to date, we have established that Oil exports or other hydrocarbon or energy exports are not credited to Scotland in the Regional Trade Statistics.

      However in going though the database you sent me, it does appear that you allocate a substantial Mineral Fuel figure amounting to more than 20% of Scotlands import figures from year to year to Scottish imports.

      While I accept that mineral oil exports are NOT credited to Scotland, is it true that Scotland’s consumption of oil is counted as an import?

      If this is a correct understanding of the figures, why is this so?

      IE Exports not counted to Scotland’s Regional Trade Statistics, but consumption of Mineral Oils counted as an import.

      The relevant link is shown below.

      With thanks

      Cadogan Enright

    12. and it gets more and more detailed . . . .

      From: Cadogan Enright
      Sent: 03 April 2017 21:29
      To: UKTradeinfo, Team (Customs)
      Subject: 1449 Freedom of information request

      Dear N

      I have 5 follow up sets of questions labelled A, B C, D and E;

      A. Questions on section 3.9 in the document attached below;
      The section on ‘gas and electricity’ is easy to follow but, oil is VERY vague – can you clarify the brief summary in the document you sent me in section 3.9

      “Where oil is processed on rigs in the North Sea and dispatched directly to other countries, the oil does not enter the UK and therefore does not obtain any regional coding. The RTS methodology categorises this oil trade based on the location of the oil rig. This allocation also uses information from the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999. Oil imported or exported into or out of the UK via ship will be associated with a business. Trade is allocated to the region where the business is registered subject to the main allocation method outlined above.”

      1. what does this mean? “The RTS methodology categorises this oil trade based on the location of the oil rig. This allocation also uses information from the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999. Oil imported or exported into or out of the UK via ship will be associated with a business. Trade is allocated to the region where the business is registered subject to the main allocation method outlined above.” ?
      It appears to imply that either the Scottish Adjacent Water Boundaries Order OR that oil exported by ship and associated with a business will result in Oil exports not being credited to Scotland’s regional trade balance. Is this correct?

      2. Is it fair to say that businesses for this purpose are often not registered in Scotland?

      3. Are any of them registered in Scotland?

      B. Question on Section 3.10

      “Treatment of unusual trade There are a number of categories of trade that present difficulties in terms of assigning regions to the business or activities responsible for the trade flows. These are described below. These are recorded in the ‘Unallocated’ category, split ‘Unallocated – Known’ where full details are known but it is not realistic to allocate it to a region; and ‘Unallocated – Unknown’ where not enough detail is known to allocate to a region.”

      What are the main types of catagories of trade that fall into the ‘Unallocated’ Catagory. Are any of these related to Whiskey, Gas, Electricty or Oil?

      C. Questions on section 3.11
      “Overseas businesses registered in the UK There are a number of businesses who act within the UK on behalf of foreign companies overseas, operating as ‘ghost presences’. For ease of administration, the majority of these businesses are registered for VAT purposes with Customs House, Aberdeen. The RTS methodology categorises this ghost trade as ‘Unallocatedknown’, as allocating it all to Scotland would falsely inflate the Scottish share and we do not have any information to enable us to re-allocate these data to other regions.”

      This clearly indicates that this huge volume of petroleum related exports are NOT credited to Scot;and, but to the rest of the UK – am I correct?

      What are the main types of catagories of trade that fall into the ‘Unallocatedknown’ Catagory. Are any of these related to Whiskey, Gas, Electricty or Oil?

      D. Questions on Whiskey.
      Diageo is the world’s biggest whisky producer with malt distilleries open to the public at Blair Athol, Glenkinchie, Dalwhinnie, Royal Lochnagar, Cragganmore, Cardhu, Glen Ord, Clynelish, Talisker, Oban, Caol Ila and Lagavulin.

      It is registered and has it headquarters in London.

      Sections 3.2, 3.3 and 3.4 seem to indicate that Whiskey production will not be allocated to Scotland’s account – but either all to the South East Region, or in proportion to Diageo’s employment around the UK, on on account of the address of its VAT registration – London.

      Can you clarify this with specific reference to Diageo as an example?

      E. Section 3.8 on Gas and Electricity.

      This section seems to be clear. The region from whence the gas or electricity flows abroad is credited with the export. Is this a correct interpretation?

      Does that mean that Scotland as a net producer of gas and electricity is not credited with the flow of these commodities that leaves its region, but this surplus is credited to other Regions as their ‘exports’?

      Thanks for your attention in this matter.

      Councillor Cadogan Enright

    13. dadsarmy says:

      @Cadogan Enright
      It beats me. I tried to check out where whisky is bottled, if there’s any statistics for that. A cask of whisky is worth so much, but the bottles from it are clearly worth more than a cask. And a lot of bottling is done outside Scotland, in England, no idea how much. So the bottles are greatly value added over the cask value. To be called Scotch it has to be matured in the cask in Scotland, but not as I understand it, bottled. Unless perhaps a single malt!

      The other thing or the same thing (both) is whisky being moved in bond, where the UK excise duty isn’t paid until it’s taken out of bond. Clearly if that duty was devolved it would be due to Scotland not England. But which country IS it attributed to?

      The SWA website wasn’t much help, what a surprise.

      I spent days but gave up in the end, life’s too short!

    14. dadsarmy says:

      Don’t rely on anything I said there being right by the way, it was a couple of years ago and a lot happened since then, plus I lost interest as I wasn’t getting anywhere.

    15. @Dadsarmy

      Whiskey mostly credited to London on account of VAT registration addresses

      not Scotland where it is produced

    16. dadsarmy says:

      @cadogan Enright
      Not according to the GERS FAQ though:

      Q: Do you use company headquarters to assign corporation tax or taxes like VAT?

      A: Corporation tax on trading profits is estimated on a company-by-company basis, depending on the economic activity each company has in Scotland, not location of company headquarters. VAT is a consumption tax, and is therefore estimated based on purchases that are made in Scotland, rather than the location of a company’s head office.

      Q: How do taxes from the whisky industry feature in the GERS estimates?

      A: Like any industry, the whisky industry’s activity in Scotland generates tax revenue through a range of sources, such as corporation tax on profits, income tax and national insurance contributions on staff earnings, and non-domestic rates payments on business premises. These are all captured in the estimates of Scottish public sector receipts reported in GERS.

      In addition, whisky consumed in the UK is subject to VAT and alcohol duty. This is assigned to Scotland on the basis of how much is consumed in Scotland. Whisky which is exported does not generate UK VAT or alcohol duty. There is no export duty in the UK.

      Anyways, I’m not going there again, it’s a black hole!

    17. dadsarmy says:

      Sorry by the way, I suddenly realise you’re talking UKTradeinfo, I’m talking GERS 🙂

      And the ScotGov figures for trade are different from the UKTradeinfo ones if I remember rightly.

      Anyway, I’m getting an early night for a change.

    18. Dorothy Devine says:

      Cadogan Enright , you have an intrusive ‘e’ in that whisky.

      I had no idea who the eejit was who thought Edinburgh castle should be returned to ‘Britain” – I now discover he is West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine and I have great difficulty understanding how anyone could vote for a pillock so anti his country’s heritage , a cultural cretin indeed.

      I actually thought I had reached saturation level in disgust and dislike but hey ho , someone always pops up with greater idiotic disparaging comment obviously thinking to please their masters by running their own country down – and I think of very rude responses.

    19. @ Dorothy Devine – I am Irish

      but I think we can both agree that the correct original spelling was “Uisce” or Uisce beatha

    20. Dorothy Devine says:

      Happily Cadogan!

    21. dadsarmy says:

      Oh well, since the MT is OT, the OT becomes the MT!

      On 16 October, the supreme court will hold an open day to celebrate its 10th anniversary. Anyone will be able to explore the architectural splendour of its courtrooms and its colourful, swirling carpets – incorporating a Welsh leek, English rose, Scottish thistle and Northern Irish flax – designed by the artist Sir Peter Blake.” [UKSC]

      Look at Hale by the way, she’s definitely on loan from a Harry Potter movie, probably as head of Gryffindor or something like that.

    22. dadsarmy says:

      And a wee take on Aidan O’Neill,

      He’s due tomorrow to as the CoS case is about: “A judge has fixed a date for proceedings in which Scotland’s highest civil court will consider whether it can imprison the Prime Minister if he pursues a ‘no-deal’ Brexit.

      Lord Pentland arranged a hearing to take place this Friday at the Court of Session for a legal action brought by SNP MP Joanna Cherry, English lawyer Jo Maugham QC and businessman Dale Vince.

      imprison the Prime Minister

      This case is alongside the nobile officium which is next week. So basically BoJo could be jailed, plus the clerk of court in the CoS sign the request for an extension for him. Presumably Police Scotland would send a squad down to Downing Street to arrest him.

      Wonder what the EU would make of the UK’s PM being in the Bar’L.

      Better than any joke 🙂

    23. dadsarmy says:

      I think by the way that the English courts also have the power to imprison BoJo if he refuses, as that would be contemept of court if the court had ruled he must write the letter according to the “surrender act”. But it#s only the CoS has the nobile officium, or “Nob Off” power as it’s being called 🙂


    24. dadsarmy says:

      Sorry, the quote from the “imprison” post is from the Scotsmand, not Adam Wagner whose comments are interesting, if perhaps a little insitutionally ignorant of Scotland. As in this tweet: “Also, Pannick has done the heavy lifting already so he can go a bit off grid” which was both true AND untrue; different angles.

      Ha, geddit? “Angles” 🙂

      I slay myself.

    25. Dan says:

      A younger and fresh couponed John Lydon with PIL – Rise

      Although slightly different wording in the song “May the road rise up to meet you” seems appropriate for all the AUOB marchers this weekend.

      Peter Gabriel – Games Without Frontiers.

      Lyrics now seem to fairly accurately describe numerous ongoing political antics within UK.
      Someone really needs to produce the meme “If Carlsberg did political shitfests…”

    26. Clapper57 says:

      Can some kind soul put a link for Gong’s “Magdalene”…please.

      Thanks in anticipation…tonight or any night after.


    27. Shinty says:

      Trying to find out about the indy march tomorrow in Glasgow?
      Anyone direct me to detail – google has nothing but past marches – cheers.

    28. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian B.

      Apologies – I missed your comment about buses until a minute ago.
      BTW: Another member of Dundee’s Team Yes Bus has claimed my spare ticket.

      The three sites I refer to are:-

      I did a check on Citylink’s site (Citylink and Megabus are intertwined) at the back of lunchtime, re buses from Dundee tomorrow for another Dundonian. Here’s what I found…

      “The 9.20, 10.05, 10.15 and 11.15 Citylink/Megabus buses are full. Another Citylink at 11.15 still has seats but doesn’t get into Edinburgh until 13.10. (change at Broxden.) If you’ve not already booked, you’ll have to look at the 3 buses at 8.45 or the 7.55.”

      Hope this helps…

      Citylink fares stay the same; the nearer you get to journey date, Megabus fares rise.

      Here are some examples from Citylink, Glasgow to Edinburgh, tomorrow morning.

      You can click on the left arrows at top right for earlier journeys.

    29. Ghillie says:

      Looking forward to seeing you all tomorrow 🙂

      Safe journeys x

    30. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Thepnr and Mrs Thepnr, Cactus, Cameron B and all old friends and new 🙂

      I’ll be looking out for you 🙂

    31. Dan says:

      My sister sent me a pic of a tray of lovely looking Saltire cakes she’s made for the morra.
      Had to check she hadn’t coloured the icing blue by grinding up a load of viagra tablets!
      Admittedly that might help keep folk’s flagpoles erect, but
      I reminded her it’s not an All Under One Boner event…

    32. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Where’s Cactus gone?

      FFS man, come back eh?


      Good luck to all heading for the march. I can’t make it. Totally gutted.

      Can’t complain though. Have been to most of the bigger marches and rallies in recent years and enjoyed them all thoroughly, even the ones that weren’t so well attended. Feels like tomorrow could be a landmark although, like others, I’m a bit wary of the numbers being bandied about.

      Here’s hoping the weather stays fair. Looking forward to getting first-hand accounts from some of you at Dows on the 25th.

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    33. dadsarmy says:


      Won’t be there myself in body, left it too late to book buses as I couldn’t guarantee being free, but will be there in spirit. Anyways, I did last year and Glasgow this year.

    34. Clapper57 says:

      @ David @ 2.19am

      Thank you David….

    35. Shinty says:

      @ dadsarmy – thanks for that – sorry but stopped buying the national a year ago – also thought the march was Glasgow. No I won’t be going to Auld Reekie. I’m off to S.A. shortly and thought it would be good to attend at least one march before I left.
      Don’t worry if there is a vote – I’ll be back in a heartbeat!

    36. Macart says:

      Wishing all the best for folks going to Embra today.

      Have a great time folks. 🙂

    37. Ghillie says:

      Thanks Macart 🙂

      This is feeling like a practice for the biggest celebration Scotland has ever seen 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Clapper57, hope we might meet!

      I expect alot of folk will gather in the Meadows that didn’t manage to join in the march.

      So where ever you are, join us there 🙂

      Oor Nicola says ‘Have a great day!’

      ‘And be in no doubt – Independence is coming’ 🙂 🙂 🙂

    38. Dan says:

      Garbage – Only Happy When It Rains (Unionist Tears)

    39. hackalumpoff says:

      Driving home today from the march. I heard these two great “protest songs” on the Radio.

      1-Martyn Joseph – Nye : A Song for the NHS

      2-Martyn Joseph – Here Come The Young

      @Welsh Sion – you kept this guy to yourselves !!

    40. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      One of my highlights of the day was after we had disposed of the WOS stall, I wandered towards the stage and they were just winding up so I headed towards George IV Bridge to go back up to the Royal Mile for a pint.
      As I left the Meadows, just before the George IV Bridge, something caught my peripheral vision, on the left. I looked round and saw a squirrel (a grey, unfortunately) foraging in the fallen leaves. I stopped and watched it, whilst trying to pull my phone out of my pocket to video it. I didn’t quite manage.
      This squirrel was gallus. It wandered about “patting” the leaves until it eventually climbed the log (see the link) and looked straight at me, as if it was daring me to move.
      After a few seconds, it went back to patting the leaves in front of the log, before disappearing into the undergrowth.
      The log it clambered up is the one you can see at this link, leaning up towards the viewpoint.
      The one with the hole in the end. It just sat there, looking at me, like it was daring me to do something. At one with nature…

    41. dadsarmy says:

      Sussing you out BDTT to see if you were a threat, and after its nuts. If Wings had a few more squirrels there’d be less ferrets 🙂

    42. Dan says:

      Should have nabbed it for the pot Brian.
      Those pesky invaders may look cute but they ain’t no friend to oor red uns.
      I can personally vouch that one grey squirrel easily provides enough meat for a tasty stirfry. It tastes like a chicken / pork combination.
      Come “Brexit” foraging for decent nosh such as a grey squirrel, rather than buying shitey hormone fed beef and chicken will be all the rage.

    43. dadsarmy says:

      Haven’t played this for some time.

      YES should maybe make a banner of it to show NO voters. Or T-shirts.

    44. CameronB Brodie says:

      Right peeps, you’ve had a good long break from me. Well I’m back.

      Is Westminster still a racist patriarchy? Is the Prime Minister still acting as if the Brexit referendum was legit and Scots as having no constitutional or human rights? Is the Scottish goverment still being advised by the legal team of Doofus and Dolt, who appear determined to undermine the coherance of legal doctrin and the effectivenes of international juresprudence?

      Human rights and natural law

      “No declaration of human rights will ever be exhaustive and final. It will ever go hand-in-hand with the state of moral consciousness and civilization at a given moment in history,” says the French philosopher Jacques Maritain (1882-1973) in his text “On the Philosophy of Human Rights”, which he sent from Rome in June 1947, in response to UNESCO’s survey about the philosophical foundations of human rights. “And it is for this reason,” he adds, “that after the considerable conquest constituted at the end of the eighteenth century by the first written formulations, there is now a major interest in renewing these declarations from century to century.” – Jacques Maritain

      Taking Sex Discrimination Seriously

      Gender Semiotics and the 21st Century Feminist Utopia: Implications on National Security and Socio-cultural Development

    45. Clapper57 says:

      @ CameronB Brodie

      Welcome back…..I was really worried about you….nice to see you posting again.

      Have a lovely evening

    46. Clapper57 says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon on 7 Oct @ 11.56pm

      Hi Brian, after reading your squirrel story it reminded me of mine.

      I used to love squirrels and my hubby and I would feed them in Princes st gardens as thought they were so cute….and then….

      One morning a long long time ago…before I took early retirement ….I parked my car , as per usual, in Castle street carpark to go to work….this car park is next to one of the side entrances to princes street gardens…and as I was walking from car park to get to work in Lothian Road….an incident occurred…involving a ……squirrel !

      As I was walking all of a sudden a squirrel jumps out, from the gardens, and stops dead a few yards in front of me and stared at me…as I tentatively moved it moved too… like a Ninja and it mirrored my movements….for some reason ( i.e. Fear) I was a bit freaked out and it was….. honest to God………… blocking my path….

      Fortunately for me another girl came up behind me and she too was a tad apprehensive about said squirrel…it just seemed so CALCULATED….like it was ready to pounce…it was quite funny really because the both of us were too scared to move…and when we did …then it moved too…very ninja like and menacing….as if to say “Where the hell do you think you two are going”

      I love animals but this Ninja squirrel has totally destroyed any affection I have for squirrels ….this was the devil’s squirrel for sure….

      Eventually we both made a run for it and the wee swine chased us…which prompted us both to scream ….to any passer by who did not notice the squirrel they must have wondered what the hell was going on….and who the Hell we were trying to get away from…don’t know about her but if anybody had asked me I would have been way to embarrassed to have admitted that our behaviour was due to a ……………..squirrel…..but is was a Ninja one…so hey….justified panic obvs.

      Beware Ninja Squirrels……

    47. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thanks for your thoughts and kind words.


      I’m not really back, just pulling folks legs. For shits and giggles. I’ll probably not post again for a while. Saying that, I hope I’ve managed to draw folks attention to the spamheededness of believing that it is possible to self-ditermine one’s sex. As it doesn’t take a lot of philisophy to link gender and nationality, gender politics are an ideal gateway to understanding Scotlland’s predicament. The full-English Brexit treats Scotland in the same way the woke-wing of the SNP want to treat women. The First Minister might appreciate this, if she was open to a gender-critical view that is grounded in liberal, practicle, science. Not radical philosophy and ideological idealism.

      The SNP needs to divorce itself from woke radicalism and support for self-ID of sex, if it hopes to deliver self-government for Scotland.

      Hegel, Human Rights, and Political Membership


      This paper examines Hegel’s view of the relationship of human rights and political membership. Attention is accorded the concept of a right to have rights, one famously thematized by Hannah Arendt but articulated already earlier by Hegel. The discussion has five parts. Part One considers how for Hegel a notion of political membership is entailed by the concept of right itself. Part Two examines the place occupied by modern civil society in a realised account of human rights. Part Three considers the challenges posed to realised right by the phenomenon of modern poverty and the experience of ‘rightlessness’ it occasions. Part Four details how Hegel’s conception of the corporation addresses the phenomenon of rightlessness, taking into account his uniquely reflexive understanding of a right to have rights and its contribution to the project of the Philosophy of Right. The concluding section briefly compares Hegel’s conception of membership rights to Arendt’s.

      Shawn Lee’s Ping Pong Orchestra – Mood Bender

    48. Dan says:

      Hi Cameron. Hope all is well with you.
      Did you make it to any of the recent marches?

      You’ve arrived back just as the “old” Self ID shiz rears its head again.
      We were there man, in the One Week in the War on Women thread a while back as two blokes voicing our concerns over the matter.
      I’ve been busy this week with physical work restroring cars and today pouring concrete, so pretty tired and cannae really be arsed going over it all again as I’m somewhat jaded at seeing that bunch of fannies still pushing this bollox.

      Tears for Fears – Mad World

    49. dadsarmy says:

      Does this remind you of anything?

      I used to play it on piano, adding wrinkles, just for the fun of it.

      Couldn’t make it to Edinburgh, anyway it was muddy.

    50. Clapper57 says:

      @ CameronB Brodie

      Your welcome.

      I do read your stuff….but unfortunately in my family my brother got the brains and I got the brawn…so sometimes it takes a few readings to understand …some of it…I don’t know about Shawn Lee’s ‘Mood Bender’ but there is certainly a lot of changing moods going on a bender with all of this brexshit shenanigans and when’s Indy 2 going to happen… there not !!!….Lol

    51. Liz g says:

      Oh Smallaxe…. While I think of you and Mrs Smallaxe often..
      So missing yer Wisdom tonight xxx

    52. Clapper57 says:

      @ Liz G

      Hi Liz G, how you doin ?

      I am back on MT…you probably noticed…I just thought what the Hell…caution to the wind…

      You are certainly presenting a good argument on MT…gaun yirsel lassie…like another poster said..wish there was a ‘like’ option …..I would add it onto your comments fir sure…

      Have a good evening

    53. Liz g says:

      Clapper 57 @ 6.43
      Thanks for sayin Flapper xx
      And I’m glad you took the plunge back on to the main thread you’ve a thing or two to be sayin yerself my friend 🙂

    54. Dan says:

      In oot, in oot, shake it all aboot.
      Let’s do the EU hokey cokey.

      Please jive carefully…

      JXL & Elvis – A Little Less Conversation

      Stakka Bo – Down The Drain

    55. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I don’t think I’ve linked to this track before in ‘off-topic’.

      The background… Back in the early 70s, Barclay James Harvest were regarded by the music press pundits as the “poor man’s Moody Blues”. They eventually took control of that sobriquet and composed this tune, as a tribute/homage/two fingers.

      It stands up on its own as a rather good track. I like it.

    56. David says:

      The recent Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times has some very interesting findings. Here’s the link to a pdf file of some of its data tables:

      It is basically 2 full polls in one, with 1,003 people polled in Scotland and 1,010 in Eng & Wales.

      Q6 for Scots voters is “Should Scotland be an independent country?” Excluding ‘Don’t Knows’ the result is the narrowest possible win for NO with 413 against 412 for YES. There is now just a ONE-vote lead for NO!
      That’s YES on 49.94% and NO on 50.06%.

      Q6b piles the pressure on Westminster – if there is a “No-deal Brexit” then YES beats NO by 54% to 46%. 🙂

      Q10 is “Would Scotland be better off economically as an independent country within the EU, or as part of the UK outside the EU?”
      This was asked in Scotland and also in Eng & Wales, and the differences are very significant.
      In Scotland, with “Don’t Knows” removed, 55.9% say we’d be better off being Independent and in the EU. Only 44.1% said we’d be better off as part of Brexit Britain. That’s a 12-point lead for indy.

      In Eng & Wales, 69.3% said Scotland would be better off as Independent and in the EU. Only 30.7% said we’d be better off economically as part of Brexit Britain.

      Think about that. People in England and Wales are much more positive about the financial benefits of independence for Scotland!
      It shows how much negative effect the “Scottish Cringe” has.

      Too wee, too poor? Aye right! The English and Welsh know the truth, even if some BritNat Scots don’t.

    57. David says:

      Hey Brian Doonthetoon, thanks for posting Barclay James Harvest.

      Here’s one of their early songs, “Mocking Bird”

    58. Ghillie says:

      David, THAT is an interesting polling result!

      I wonder if the owner of Wings might like to discuss that?

      Thankyou for the music links folks 🙂

    59. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Cheers, David!


    60. dadsarmy says:

      It’s funny when you look back at music and think about it.

      You knew these things but who cared eh! It’s music.

    61. dadsarmy says:

      Remember when OT was mostly music? Those were the days! Anyways, don’t think I’ve ever seen Melanie played so here’s a whole album.

    62. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If you’re definitely coming to the gathering in Dows next Friday, can you please let us know here?



    63. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Albie Dair, with the product of my lions.

    64. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Make that “loins”. My lions went to a good home.

    65. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Apologies for being presumptuous but I already had you on the list!


    66. Tam the Bam. says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Hi Ian

      Could you state the time for Wingers ‘meet-up’ @ Dows next Friday?


    67. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Hi Tam,

      Some of us will be there mid-afternoon but I imagine most will arrive between 5 and 7ish. Just whenever suits you, we’ll be in the downstairs bar until they open upstairs and that will depend how many of us arrive early.



    68. Tam the Bam. says:

      Many thanks Ian.

    69. Gary says:

      I need to get this off my chest, and, looking at previous comments on here I can see I’m not the only one who’s noticed or been aggravated by it…it’s Jo Swinson’s accent. There, I’ve said it.

      It’s just AWFUL. I’m not being racist, sexist or anything else like that. I don’t care what colour you are, where you’re from, what religion you are or whatever. I don’t even case what accent you speak in either BUT, she does take the biscuit.

      I know that she’s from Scotland and, as someone who lived in England and still visits very often, I know that you need to avoid certain words and (not joking) speak more slowly, to be understood – especially in places like London where they won’t make an effort to listen. But you don’t need to put on a phony English accent, it might not be so bad if she could pull it off and actually SOUND English but it’s dreadful, someone should tell her. It almost worse than when Dick Van Dyke did that DREADFUL Cockney accent in Mary Poppins (if you’re not old enough – Google it or try YouTube)

      English people must be genuinely offended by it. It’s like when you’re on holiday somewhere and someone you don’t even know comes up and puts on a really bad version of a Scottish accent to mock you.

      Thanks for the space to get that off my chest, I almost can’t hear what she’s saying for the sound of the fake accent, it’s beginning to sound like fingernails on a blackboard to me. But she’s a LibDem anyway so she’s not very important, luckily we don’t have to hear it much…

    70. Michael McCabe says:

      Hi folks hope you don’t mind me jumping in here. The place has changed since my last visit. Anyway to the point. A good few people who used to frequent this place regularly are meeting up tomorrow for a blether and a few beverages from about 5 pm till closing I was just wondering if any of you wanted to come along.

    71. Michael McCabe says:

      If you do fancy coming along it is taking place at Dows bar just outside Queen Street Station in Glasgow. these wee meet up are legendary the first one I went to I went by myself and since then I can honestly say I now have about 30 new friends. I know it is short notice but if you can make it you will be made most welcome. Hope to see some of you there.
      Cheers. ? ? ??????? ?

    72. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 22:48 (19.Oct)

      Alas I’m going to have to give y’all a miss later today, despite my previous good intentions. Caught a bug a couple of days ago whilst on my travels, managed to make it home OK, but am in no fit state to go anywhere else right now. Besides which, don’t want to pass this particular lurgi on to any of you.

      Which adds an extra layer of self-pity on top of the usual bleary pathos of such circumstances, ‘cos I was rather looking forward to another of these all-too-rare occasions. But have a wonderful time anyway despite my absence! =grin= (Or is that “because of”…? heh, heh =laugh= =splutter=)

      PS: While in Brussels of late I discovered to my pleasant surprise, nearby to Central Station, a watering-hole called “Wings Tavern”. Took a photie that I would have printed out for the (mild) amusement of all, but there we are. (Still, you can always make do instead with streetview on Google maps, just look at the east end of La Putterie.)

    73. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland –

      Hope you’re feeling a bit better now. Sounds quite nasty.

      You would’ve enjoyed last night. Not as busy as the first gig in Dows (was that really this year too? Seems ages ago…) but a few of the ‘auld’ faces and some newbies too.

      Jim Fae the Glen got footage of BDTT’s speech and Ronnie’s acceptance of a special plaque from Donna B. Hope this link works okay and that Jim et al don’t mind it being re-linked.

      A lot of positivity in the room. General feeling appears to be that we’re very nearly there and the surprise announcement of the Nicola/National-organised rally next week is viewed as highly significant.

      Also worth noting that Angus MacNeil (aye, the MP) took the time to pop in and say hello after Ronnie A spotted him emerging from Queen St station and gave him a shout. What a lovely guy, seemed very happy to show face despite being in a hurry.

      All in all, another successful ‘Wings’ social.


    74. Cactus says:

      Howde’s, ah wisnae planning on coming back on just yet but but but, hey needs must, great to be with ye Wingers at Dow’s, that was important, I was at the RIC conference at the Radisson earlier yesterday 2, good talk.

      Excellent stuff both above and below the line as ever… keep going.

      ps ah’ve lost my phone (or somebody stole it 2nite), if ye know me call me 07940 595 ***, cheers everybody 🙂

      One of two…

    75. Cactus says:

      Hey, I got me a new phone so now back in contact, have an excellent birthday Rev, I’ll be back in a bitty, cheers all.

    76. Dan says:

      Fair Scunnered with things so my pal and I took the bikes for a wee tour around north Perthshire today.
      Absolutely stunning scenery on such a bright clear day with the autumn colours on display.
      Made our way to Glenshee, then over to Pitlochry, and along Loch Tummel, down past Schiehallion, through Fortingall wi the Yew, cut across to Invervar*, round the back of Ben Lawers, down past the hydro scheme to Loch Tay, then Kenmore, Aberfledy, and o’er the hill to Amulree and down to Dunkeld then toodled off hame.
      Scotland’s too wee… A’wa and dinae talk pish!

      Big Country – In a Big Country (with a bit of Scotland’s scenery)

      Big Country – Wonderland (I feel the winter too, coz winter is coming in more ways than one)

      * I reckon someone in Invervar has a pet panda as there seemed to be a lot of bamboo growing in the village for some reason!

    77. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian B.

      Downloaded your Dow’s link yesterday – but haven’t had the courage to watch it yet!

      Further info: Dow’s upstair is gonna be open on Saturday from 11am, to act us a hub for activists/stallholders at the George Square rally; tea,coffee/stimulating beverages and so on.

    78. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Have no fear!

      You did a splendid job, and so did abody else. Pity it wasn’t a bit busier but a great night all the same.


    79. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 21:07 (26.Oct),

      Thanks for the video Ian, which I did enjoy even if necessarily at one remove this time. Add my appreciation to Ronnie also, if from a relative latecomer to the party.

      This current outage is turning out to be a bit of a sluggard to shift, but I’m still very much looking forward to at least popping in before everything starts off on the Great Day this coming Saturday. Another milestone to rank with the vote in Holyrood back in the heady days of Spring 2017.

      Unmissable! (You lot too! =laugh=)

    80. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland –


      Always good to see you popping up away from the MT.

      Unfortunately, I won’t make it to Glasgow tomorrow (unless I slip my handlers early in the morning at the shift-change) so it’s one gig I won’t be able to tell the grandweans about.

      The only party I’m really bothered about is the first post-indy one when we can all get thegither. What a party that will be sah! Where, when, and for how long?

      The mind boggles, in a good way…

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    81. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Quinie Fae Angus.

      Here are the two tracks I mentioned in Waxy’s earlier this evening.

      (Greg Lake?)

    82. Quinie frae Angus says:

      Hey Brian Doon the Toon

      Thanks very much for posting the choons…..

      I do agree that the “Oh Yeah” track is absolutely DB’s “Jean Genie”! And the Shy Limbs one is quite like Procul Harum’s “Whiter Shade of Pale” – which incidentally was the No. 1 tune the week in which I was born, which is why my Dad (a former Morgan Academy pupil) has such a soft spot for it.

      Great to see you and Chris on Saturday.

    83. Macart says:

      Worth checking this out and very much worth spreading far and wide.

    84. dadsarmy says:

      Music! Guitar intro and blah:

      The Gypsy

    85. Smallaxe says:

      For Hackalumpoff;
      Van Morrison – Gypsy In My Soul

      For Nana;
      “A Young Gypsy” Joan Baez;

      For Tinto;
      Sandy Denny and Fotheringay: “Gypsy Davy”

    86. Smallaxe says:

      Tinto, here’s the track that I meant to play.

      Sandy Denny and Fotheringay: “Gypsy Davy”

    87. Smallaxe says:

      For All Wingers;

      “Don’t Let the Bastards Get you down”

      “Cheer Up” Bob Marley;

      Frankie Miller: “Caledonia”

      One People One World One Love

    88. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Evening all!

      Good to see some auld faces popping back in!

      Here’s a funky tune I just happened to have playing there on the YT.

      Earth, Wind & Fire, ‘Shining Star’

    89. dadsarmy says:

      Every time you look there’s more up there. And yeah, often enough I’ve only ever been there for the beer.

    90. Dan says:

      An ominous look into the future as Scots attempt to deal with Donalda MacKinnon’s overzealous BBC broadcasting bias.

      Canvas sheets…Keeping me up all night.

    91. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hi Dan

      Sorry for not replying, way back. I’ve not really been feeling too hot recently, so I’ve not really had much contact with the movement. Nothing to worry about.


      Folk might wonder why I’m so vocally against self-ID of sex. My training aimed to enable me to support the development of sustainable communities. This training was endorsed by the Royal Town Planning Institute, and included an introduction to ethical rationalism, which is considered a fundamental requirement of ethically moral social practice.

      Liberal constitutionalism can only remain liberal, if public policy remains grounded in empirical reality. As such, contemporary British nationalism and trans-ideology in law, were both considered as detrimental to the potential for effective and open democracy.

      Supporting trans-ideology in law, dislocates legal reason from the real world, and undermines the potential for government and public policy that is supportive of ethically moral social practice.

      Is it not a bit silly to fight tooth and claw to defend the legal personhood of those living in Scotland, while denying the same ethical logic to the legal rights of women? Endorsing a state of authoritarianism that is grounded in the irrational, whether British nationalism or trans-ideology, can certainly not be considered compatible with a state of ethical governance.

      Persons and citizens in constitutional thought

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      One for your traditional Marxists, who tend to deny the significance of personal identity, due to a unfavorable suspicion of the political emancipation of the individual. Marxists tend to view individual liberty to be a gateway for market exploitation. Solidarity, brother.

      Also suitable for the re-edumication of the woke set.

      Personal Freedom through Human Rights Law?
      Autonomy, Identity and Integrity under the European Convention on Human Rights

    93. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi CamB – good to see you posting again.

      Hi Smallaxe – apologies for missing your input in the last couple of weeks.


      Collected this video via Facebook tonight. The fact that the song was about the gig location reminded me…

      When me and my son were in Campbeltown for the AUOB march, we attended an after-march party in the Argyle Arms Hotel, where the band finished off with “Mull of Kintyre” (Wings.)
      Onnywhere else, it would have been cheesy but, that night, it worked.

      But I still think that the best version of “Loch Lomond” is the recording from the Albert Halls Stirling, in the late 80s.

      Sleep pattern disturbed, hence silly hours comment.

    94. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hi Brian, I see the loonatic fringe of the reactionery right has outed itself on the MT. 🙂

      As with Zionist nationalism, Englishness is often guilty of thinking itself blessed from above, and so justified in a sense of cultural supremacy (see the full-English Brexit).

      Christian Zionism and English National Identity, 1600–1850

      This book explores why English Christians, from the early modern period onwards, believed that their nation had a special mission to restore the Jews to Palestine. It examines English support for Jewish restoration from the Whitehall Conference in 1655 through to public debates on the Jerusalem Bishopric in 1841.

      Rather than claiming to replace Israel as God’s “elect nation”, England was “chosen” to have a special, but inferior, relationship with the Jews. Believing that God “blessed those who bless” the Jewish people, this national role allowed England to atone for ill-treatment of Jews, read the confusing pathways of providence, and guarantee the nation’s survival until Christ’s return.

      This book analyses this mode of national identity construction and its implications for understanding Christian views of Jews, the self, and “the other”. It offers a new understanding of national election, and of the relationship between apocalyptic prophecy and political action.

    95. Dan says:

      Hi Cam,
      Aye, this Indy game certainly is a rollercoaster ride and there’s no harm taking a break before it makes you puke.
      I’m having a bit of an existential crisis myself these days…
      Can’t even take a break and go fishing as the water’s frozen over!
      Too fookin cold in workshop to play around with classic bike and car projects.
      By the time I get them sorted no doubt the woke brigade will be trying to ban the use of them anyway for environmental reasons, not realising that all their social media posts are sitting in mega servers consuming huge amounts of power.
      I presume they’ll be paying a price premium on their smartphone tariffs to ensure the shit they post is being held on a server powered by renewable energy.
      I mean, you are either part of the solution or part of the precipitate.

      Anyway, question for you Cam, as you regularly link to academic studies; I thought it took a lot of years of education, thought, and practical experience to develop a good strong foundation of knowledge on any particular subject.

      So how come these young cocksure woke types are supposedly so well versed and at the cutting edge in numerous different areas?
      EG. Studied economics but also think they are an expert in the fields of biology, social sciences, and geo-politics.
      I’m calling bullshit and think they spent their time studying ego-politics.

    96. CameronB Brodie says:

      You might be on to something there Dan. Labour were out street campaigning in my neck of the woods, just the other day. I spoke with one elderly Scottish gent, who claimed to be a socialist who would never support nationalism. He agreed with me that Brexit was Tory madness and that it would harm Scotland. Unfortunately, his cognitive dissonance prevented him from appreciating his support for the union, was an endorsement of English (Tory) nationalism. According to this gent, Scotland has nothing to worry about over Brexit, as Corbyn is a good man, with Scotland’s best interests at hart. He’ll look out for Scotland. Apparently.

      I then got speaking with a young English woman in her thirties(?). She was open to me suggesting that contemporary British nationalism denies Scotland equal legal status to England. She reacted as if I was an unspeakable ghoul though, for suggesting that biological women need to do more to defend their legal identities, and that trans-women are not women, but biological men performing an interpretation of womanhood. Apparently the trans-cult is more culturally entrenched than I had imagined.

      Insisting that medical science and legal decree can transform man in to woman, diminishes the cultural value that can be afforded to the state of being female, thereby providing cultural justification for the legal subordination of womanhood, to the interests of biological men. As such, endorsing trans-ideology in law, ‘breaks’ legal reason and promotes the legal consolidation of misogynistic patriarchy.

      What is John Locke’s theory of natural rights and justification for a limited government?

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