The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

Everything is transphobic

Posted on May 30, 2019 by

The modern world is an ideological minefield, readers, and is increasingly almost as dangerous as a real one. Having the wrong opinions about things can easily get you fired, ostracised from polite society, arrested or beaten up, and nowhere is this more the case than in the sphere of gender politics.

The extremely brave intersex woman Claire Graham (aka @MRKHvoice on Twitter, her latest account after a series of arbitrary bannings for upsetting the wrong people with statements of biological fact) recently compiled a list of things which are now deemed “transphobic” by trans activists, and given the transience and vulnerability of anything published on Twitter, we thought it was a good idea to preserve it here, with some additions of our own and from others.

[EDIT 9 Dec 2019: Claire has of course now been permanently banned and her original list deleted by Twitter.]

We’ve previously noted how alarmingly this sort of extremist, intolerant and openly violent male bullying in the guise of progressive political correctness has been used in recent months to silence all sorts of people (mainly but not exclusively feminists).

Politicians, police and numerous other authorities in both Scotland and the UK have been complicit – whether intentionally or not – in enabling a terrifying “woke” culture of censorship and intimidation in which the wishes of the vast majority of the public are about to be simply ridden roughshod over, resulting in the creation of laws which could have (and are already having) absolutely horrific consequences.

Anyone raising issues, however, is liable to find themselves at the centre of a vicious storm of outrage, abuse or worse. So if you’re concerned about the imminent abolition of sex but want to stay out of trouble, here’s the stuff you need to avoid.

1. Gender-neutral toilets are transphobic.

2. The desire for privacy is transphobic.

3. Snapchat is transphobic.

4. Having a “genital preference” is transphobic.

5. The NHS is transphobic.

6. Talking about prison reform is transphobic.

7. Women’s rights are transphobic.

8. Every dictionary in the world is transphobic.

9. Biology is transphobic.

10. Transwomen writing about trans schoolchildren are transphobic.

11. Liking someone’s tweets is transphobic.

12. Retweeting a poem is transphobic.

13. Debating proposed changes to the law is transphobic.

14. Telling parents about their child’s sex change is transphobic.

15. The word “bisexual” is transphobic.

16. The words “gay” and “lesbian” are transphobic.

17. Writing about “men” and “women” is transphobic.

18. Saying men and women are different is transphobic.

19. Making jokes about genitalia is transphobic.

20. Writing books with transgender characters in them is transphobic.

21. Keeping foxes out of henhouses is transphobic.

22. Holding public meetings about feminism is transphobic.

23. The entire British media is transphobic.

24. Drag queens are transphobic.

25. The phrase “ladies and gentlemen” is transphobic.

26. Thinking you know if someone’s male or female is transphobic.

27. Friends is transphobic.

28. The Daily Show is transphobic.

29. The Colbert Report is transphobic.

30. 30 Rock is transphobic.

31. Mike And Molly is transphobic.

32. The Cleveland Show is transphobic.

33. How I Met Your Mother is transphobic.

34. South Park is transphobic.

35. Family Guy is transphobic.

36. Two And A Half Men is transphobic.

37. Doctor Who is transphobic.

38. Pink woolly hats are transphobic.

39. Cupcakes are transphobic.

40. Lesbians are transphobic.

41. Dogs are transphobic.

42. Facial recognition software is transphobic.

43. Bank security checks are transphobic.

44. Airport security checks are transphobic.

45. Chocolate bars are transphobic.

46. Nice weather is transphobic.

47. Climate change is transphobic.

48. Mumsnet is transphobic.

49. Mothers Day is transphobic.

50. The phrase “Mother Earth” is transphobic.

51. Martina Navratilova is transphobic.

52. Paula Radcliffe MBE is transphobic.

53. Sharron Davies MBE is transphobic.

54. Dame Jenni Murray is transphobic.

55. Dame Kelly Holmes is transphobic.

56. Dame Edna Everage is transphobic.

57. Germaine Greer is transphobic.

58. Meghan Murphy is transphobic.

59. Feminism is transphobic

60. The Vagina Monologues is transphobic.

61. Cervical smear tests are transphobic.

62. The modern remake of The X-Files is transphobic.

63. The modern remake of Tootsie is transphobic.

64. Academic research into transgender issues is transphobic.

66. Psychiatric research into transgender issues is transphobic.

66. Trans people talking about trans rights is transphobic.

66. Saying that women get abortions is transphobic.

67. Saying that women have periods is transphobic.

68. Using anatomically-accurate language is transphobic.

69. Investigating the circumstances of child rape is transphobic.

70. Wanting to have sex with trans people is transphobic.

71. Not wanting to have sex with trans people is transphobic.

72. Gendering cats is transphobic.

73. Calling girls in an all-girl school “girls” is transphobic.

74. Ace Ventura: Pet Detective is transphobic.

75. Crocodile Dundee is transphobic.

76. The Naked Gun 33 1/3 is transphobic.

77. Psycho is transphobic.

78. The Silence Of The Lambs is transphobic.

79. The 40-Year-Old Virgin is transphobic.

80. Trainspotting is transphobic.

81. Dressed To Kill is transphobic.

82. The Crying Game is transphobic.

83. Diamonds Are Forever is transphobic.

84. Paddington is transphobic. (Yes, Paddington. Shut up, transphobe.)

85. Correctly defining the word “castration” is transphobic.

86. Ships are transphobic.

87. Goths are transphobic.

88. Bud Light beer is transphobic.

89. Protecting young children from abuse is transphobic.

90. Not being allowed to call women “scum” is transphobic.

91. Female sport is transphobic.

92. Including transgender characters in videogames is transphobic.

93. MPs talking to women’s groups is transphobic.

94. Graham Linehan is transphobic.

95. Ricky Gervais is transphobic.

96. Frankie Boyle is transphobic.

97. The director of Queer Up North is transphobic.

98. At least 37,000 people on Twitter are transphobic.

99. Google is transphobic.

and of course,

100. Wings Over Scotland is transphobic.

So don’t do, say, read, watch, play, listen to or just stand too near any of those and you should be fine, folks. Good luck.


101. Transgender writer Miranda Yardley is transphobic.

102. Telling young children their bodies are fine is transphobic.

103. Supporting a trade union picket line is transphobic.

104. Debating women’s issues is transphobic.

105. ScotRail is transphobic.

106. Acknowledging the medical condition of intersex is transphobic.

107. Philosophy is transphobic.

108. Birth certificates are transphobic.

109. Being imprisoned if you commit a crime is transphobic.

110. Working in a gender clinic is transphobic.

111. Body hair is transphobic.

112. Medicine is transphobic.

113. Peaceful protest using stickers is transphobic.

114. Deciding that you’re not transgender after all is transphobic.

115. Not tweeting about corsets is transphobic.

116. Being pansexual is transphobic.

117. Pregnancy is transphobic.

118. Childhood is transphobic.

119. Questioning gender identity is transphobic.

120. Banning men from women-only spaces is transphobic.

121. Women modelling women’s lingerie is transphobic.

122. Facebook is transphobic.

123. Shakespeare is transphobic.

124. The NSPCC is transphobic.

125. Reporting a court case is transphobic.

126. The alphabet is transphobic.

127. The post is transphobic.

128. Children are transphobic.

129. The Pogues and Kirsty McColl are transphobic.

130. Sitting next to someone on a train is transphobic.

131. Chromosomes are transphobic.

132. The female orgasm is transphobic.

133. Scarves are transphobic.

134. Guide dogs are transphobic.

135. Crosswords are transphobic.

136. Greta Thunberg is transphobic.

137. The word “woman” is transphobic and should be replaced by “womxn”.

138. The word “womxn” is transphobic.

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. 20 10 20 01:24

    Trans, Frauen, Wissenschaft - in Deutschland - Feuerstein

474 to “Everything is transphobic”

  1. Donald says:

    I don’t agree with you on much but on this I couldn’t agree more.

  2. Ian McCubbin says:

    How the fuck will I cope, is that transphobic?

  3. BuggerLePanda says:

    I don’t know what to say.

    Err…. 101.?

  4. Ruglonian says:

    Thank you Stu for highlighting this issue – hopefully by posting it here it’ll reach a wider audience – this is not a ‘feminist’ thing folks, this is a discussion we should all be having! (unless you don’t have a mum, wife, sister, aunty, niece etc)

    Aside from that, as Wings readers, you all know the value of facts, and how language and framing are important!!

  5. HandandShrimp says:

    Archaeology is also transphobic

    Dig up some bones and an archaeologist will look at the pelvic bones, skull or the DNA and declare this is a male or this is a female.

    We will all be bones some day and reduced to our DNA and pelvic bones.

    I have no problem with people declaring they identify as male, female, Klingon or alien grey and undergo body modification to further that identity but I’m not going to waste a lot of time trying to balance political angels on a pinhead over the issue. A narrower cul de sac it is harder to imagine. Drive up there and there is no easy way out.

  6. Red Squirrel says:

    M. BuggerLePanda
    I’m fairly sure binary language code will also be deemed transphobic. As I’m drinking Earl Grey Tea I expect to be on a watchlist very soon.

  7. Dr Jim says:

    I see science is safe, they must have ignored that

  8. Camy says:

    Phew – nothing on Cheese & Onion Crisps

  9. teh_klev says:

    > 100 – Wings Over Scotland is transphobic.

    Hoo boy, rational wiki seems more like irrational frother wiki.

  10. CameronB Brodie says:

    The woke-brigade are undermining the normative foundations of human rights, at a time of economic crises and the rise of authoritarian, right-wing, nationalism. This is no coincidence, IMHO. Open society is currently under extreme pressure and self-ID may be key to its’ imprisonment. Control language and you control decent.

    Feminist Theory And The Law

    Abstract and Keywords

    American feminists have identified law as an instrument of male supremacy since their first national gathering at Seneca Falls, New York in 1848. Critiques of law thus became an important part of the early feminist movement, which succeeded in eradicating the most blatant examples of legal sexism. The successes of the contemporary feminist movement might not have happened without one of those early successes: the opening of higher education to women. Contemporary feminism has had a profound and lasting impact on intellectual discourse.

    Many young scholars focused on gender in their research, pursuing the feminist goal “to question everything.” These scholars and their successors continue to realize the revolutionary potential of feminist thought. “Feminist jurisprudence,” as it came to be called, is law’s equivalent of feminist history, feminist psychology, feminist philosophy, and their counterparts. Feminist jurisprudence has borrowed freely and fruitfully from these cognate disciplines. This article examines the premise and presence of male bias, feminist jurisprudence and gendered reality, and feminist legal reasoning.

    Keywords: law, feminism, feminist jurisprudence, bias, women, legal reasoning, legal sexism, feminist psychology, feminist philosophy

  11. john says:

    Why are we going here?

    There is nothing to be won by it.

    Let’s not let the wider cause be mired in an unwinnable war.

  12. dramfineday says:

    At the risk of appearing coarse and upsetting people (youngest readers, please look away now) FFS.

  13. Dave M says:

    101. Mrs Doubtfire is transphobic
    102. Victor-Victoria is transphobic
    103. The Rocky Horror Show is transphobic
    104. Sport is transphobic
    105. Cupid Stunt is transphobic

  14. geeo says:

    I can honestly say that i have never encountered an issue with any of the above list in my 52 years on earth.

    Maybe it is because i respect people’s right to be who and whatever they want to be, and just go about living my life as I prefer.

    I only ever identify as ‘me’. If others do not like me for that, then good for them.

    Ever been on holiday in a country where the female cleaners simply wander into to toilets to clean them unannounced ?

    You have 2 options, freak out and get all upset, or continue as you are, unaffected.

    If you are the former, then that list will probably freak you out and make you a social hermit (unless hermits are transphobic, as i see its not on the list).

    If you are the latter, then life probably (and rightly) simply moves along just fine.

    Sometimes, life is as difficult as you choose to make it.

  15. BrianW says:

    You’d have been quicker making a list of topics/things etc which are not considered ‘transphobic’

    I note Volcanoes is not in the list.

    I may take to simply discussing Volcanoes with friends, family and work colleagues to be on the safe side.

  16. Gaelstorm says:

    Well, Bud Light…

  17. stu mac says:

    @Dr Jim says:
    30 May, 2019 at 1:45 pm

    I see science is safe, they must have ignored that.

    I quote from the list:

    9. Biology is transphobic.

    Biology is science so it’s not safe either.

  18. stu mac says:

    @geeo says:
    30 May, 2019 at 1:56 pm

    Sheesh, talk about completely missing the point. People can’t be relaxed about these things because they are under torrents of unpleasant abuse for stating basic facts. It’s ridiculous to expect them to “shrug their shoulders” about it. Even worse, as the Rev points out, police and politicians are going along with it in some cases when they really should be calling it out.

  19. thingy says:

    Male-to-female cable adaptors. There, I said it… 🙂

  20. Sharon Kinning says:

    Does my dislike to gender neutral toilets cancel out the fact I am a biologist?

  21. Proud Cybernat says:


  22. CameronB Brodie says:

    Conflating sex with gender undermines science and our potential to make effective public policy.

    Resisting Sex/Gender Conflation: A Rejoinder to John Hood-Williams


    The irony of the rejection of the sex/gender distinction is that it renders sociology per se an impossible enterprise. For it is my submission that, contra Hood-Williams (1996) and others, the biological and the social constitute distinct, irreducible levels of reality: to conflate (in a ‘downwards’ or ‘upwards’ direction) the two levels is immediately to render analysis of their relative interplay at best intractable.

    It is indeed arguable that Hood-Williams is not so much concerned with (rightly) rejecting the so-called ‘additive’ approach to the biological and the social where the biological base is seen a priori as immutable, but more fundamentally with rejecting the necessary dualism of nature and culture (ie the biological and the social).

    In contradistinction, a realist defence of the sex/gender distinction will be made, involving critical reference to various major writers in the field and offering a brief but tentative discussion of the provenance of gender.

  23. Ruglonian says:

    Thanks Stu Mac!

    Spend any time on twitter just looking around at this ‘debate’ and you’ll see why it can’t be ignored (god forbid you go so far as to even ‘like’ some reasonable comment – that’ll see you on some crazy block list because of the folk that trawl through these threads looking for enemies).

    If it was a ‘live and let live’ situation (as it was before these extreme TRA got involved) then fair enough, but it’s no longer as simple as that…you know how the song goes 🙁

  24. geeo says:

    Stu mac@2.12pm

    Oh right, so because i choose to respect everyone’s decision to live their life, as they see fit, as i get on with living mine, and feel no need to get involved in their lives, issues with stuff leading from their life choices/situations, then YOU attack ME for MY view in regards to that ??

    So sorry, was i not fucking offended enough for you?

    Should i be offended/bothered, just to please you ?

    Away and shite.

    Because i take that view, DOES NOT mean i do not understand the issues ffs.

  25. Joe says:

    This is where mindless quests for equity lead. This is identity politics, probably the caustic and dangerous mindset you can foster in a society. Never trust politicians who use any identity politics. That especially includes fake nationalists

  26. shiregirl says:

    They can fuck right off and take their wokey transgender activist technical jargon and etiquette with them.

    These trans activists really are a rabid, miserable and bitter bunch.

  27. MerkinScot says:

    One of your best.

  28. CameronB Brodie says:

    The woke-brigade consider themselves as progressive but they as actually regressive, they are assisting the return to paternalistic patriarchy. A lack of systematic discipline withing the social sciences is partly to blame for encouraging this.

    Unintended Consequences of the Feminist Sex/Gender Distinction

    The average person does not distinguish between “sex” and “gender,” and uses the two terms interchangeably. The same can be said of a significant number of social scientists. For instance, an unsystematic review of one recent issue of Sociological Forum and several recent issues of American Journal of Sociology produced five examples of this conflation of sex and gender (Bonilla-Silva et al., 562; Huffman and Cohen, 912; Lincoln and Allen, 621; Petersen and Saporta, 855; Rutherford, 593).

    This treatment of “sex” and “gender” as synonymous dismisses, whether knowingly or unknowingly, the considerable conceptual work of gender scholars over the last thirty years and harks back to essentialist as well as determinist notions of sex, conflating, among other things, social roles, psychological dispositions, power differences, norms of grooming and comportment, sexual object choice and reproductive anatomy.

    Such an understanding thus collapses important intellectual and experiential distinctions; in so doing, it also fails to provide conceptual categories for the experiences of women and men whose sex, gender, and/or sexuality do not “align” in socially normative ways. The instantiation of the conceptual separation of gender from sex was an effort to give language to some of these distinctions, and the subsequent rigorous critical assessment of the term “gender” over the intervening decades has further refined them.

    [2] Although it is impossible to make accurate generalizations about the work of all gender scholars, the prevailing trends can be usefully defined and studied. Here I am addressing the vast body of gender scholarship that continues to rely, either implicitly or explicitly, on the conceptual distinction between sex and gender. While my analysis draws predominantly – though not exclusively – on social scientific scholarship, the trends I will outline apply equally to humanistic scholarship that is organized conceptually by the sex/gender distinction….

  29. handclapping says:

    And meanwhile
    Violence against women
    are just fine

    Its like the Church debating angels on a pin head while the Black Death ravaged the Earth

    If you will/are/did produce the large gamete you are a woman, the rest are just men

  30. Joe says:

    Cameronb brodie

    This is what happens when the social sciences started denying biological facts to push feminist ideology over common sense. Now biology means nothing. It was good when we got to pretend that all of female problems in society were manufactured deliberately by evil men wasnt it? This where this garbage leads

  31. Artyhetty says:

    It’s an amazingly convenient distraction from so many problems that humans are facing in the world today, I find it all unbearable because it seems so unecessary.

    All humans (should) have rights, yet it seems that whole idea is being played around with, and one day everyone, except the rich elite in positions of power, will have no rights at all.

    It’s terrifying.

    I was crossing the road yesterday and overheard and older man say to his wife, ‘but I can’t see the green MAN!’ I thought crikey, yes, the green man surely is now part of the whole issue too.

    It’s all getting out of hand, and it’s political, who really is controlling the narrative on this whole bizarre saga? It’s has sprung up quite suddenly, all the while the far right around the globe are taking liberties with peoples’ rights, especially womens!

    In my opinion, this has all been blown up at the expense of tackling serious immediate problems like climate change, poverty and inequality. There are Islands in the south seas that are at risk of disappearing, where people actually live.

    The movement of people will be a huge issue in the next few decades, due to climate change, and so many are arguing and attacking each other about gender, sex preferences, etc, and violently and it’s scary as hell.

    I just hope this all peters ( I am sure that’s the wrong spelling!) out, because if not, if it escalates people will really regret it when the tipping point really does wreck their lives and remove any rights they thought they should fight others for (who are in fact no threat to them).

    Some are fighting the wrong fight, their supposed enemies have been orchestrated out of the blue, conveniently, and it’s very very scary.

  32. Alan says:

    Is keeping quiet transphobic? Sorry, I have probably just been transphobic in asking that question.

  33. aldo_macb says:

    Wondering what this has to do with indyref2

  34. CameronB Brodie says:

    Although I appreciate the “discursive turn” has added to our understanding and sensitivity towards the human condition, it is vital that sex classes remain grounded in biology.

    Better science with sex and gender: Facilitating the use of a sex and gender-based analysis in health research


    Much work has been done to promote sex and gender-based analyses in health research and to think critically about the influence of sex and gender on health behaviours and outcomes. However, despite this increased attention on sex and gender, there remain obstacles to effectively applying and measuring these concepts in health research.

    Some health researchers continue to ignore the concepts of sex and gender or incorrectly conflate their meanings. We report on a primer that was developed by the authors to help researchers understand and use the concepts of sex and gender in their work.

    We provide detailed definitions of sex and gender, discuss a sex and gender-based analysis (SGBA), and suggest three approaches for incorporating sex and gender in health research at various stages of the research process. We discuss our knowledge translation process and share some of the challenges we faced in disseminating our primer with key stakeholders. In conclusion, we stress the need for continued attention to sex and gender in health research.

  35. desimond says:

    Some praise due to their Lobby divisions though, along with the Vegans, they have fair made their voices lately and really upped their public profile.

  36. winifred mccartney says:

    Just as women are becoming able to stand up for themselves and have courage eg to leave abusive relationships, to have single sex refuges, prisons, toilets etc these trans activists come along and tell them that their rights are more important and they are quite prepared to take away women’s hard fought for rights.

    If this continues there will be no safe spaces for women and no womens sport – and so many people have been sooked into their nonsense without thinking it through – no groups rights should be allowed to take away another groups rights.

  37. CameronB Brodie says:

    You paint with a broad brush Joe. So you don’t appear to be a fan of critical rationalism, critical realism or feminist standpoint epistemology. Care to detail where you think this scientifically grounded perspective is lacking?

  38. Linda McFarlane says:

    Dr Jim

    Oh no! Biology is transphobic!

  39. Henry Gough-Cooper says:

    Thank goodness ‘The Big Bang Theory’ isn’t transphobic. Oh, wait . . .

  40. Graeme McCormick says:

    apparently it is also fascist to have policies which encourage child birth

  41. McBoxheid says:

    Nosomorphism is transgender. That or wikipedia because they don’t have a definition.

  42. Armitage Shanks says:

    Lol its the future man, get used to it.

  43. Joe says:

    Arthetty this is no accident. Marxists and post-modernists have taken over many universities including activist judgies and politicians. This has been seen before and people have been warning for years. The equity doctrine killed 10’s of millions in the 20th century

  44. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I believe, to Me and most of my fellow Baby Boomers, it’s simple:

    1. A cock and one or two bollocks – MALE

    2. Tits and a vagina – Female

    Some people, having altering surgery might fall between the two, but, good luck to them and when they finish the operations and have reached their final destination – stances 1 and 2 above apply.

    Anything else is shite.


  45. Lenny Hartley says:

    Socrates, spot on .

  46. yesindyref2 says:

    Wake me up when the blog gets back to Independence.

  47. Gary45% says:


  48. CameronB Brodie says:

    This certainly isn’t the site’s core issue but it’s a mahoosive issue and does have relevance, IMHO, as it resembles the authoritarian destruction of the Scottish identity (see the full-English Brexit). Even if you disagree, here’s some cultural anthropology and stuff. 🙂

    N.B. Sex denotes biological difference between male and female. Gender is the social psychology of sex. Gender identity is the emotional “performance” of what “sex” is thought to feel like.

    Gender and Sexuality


    Anthropologists are fond of pointing out that much of what we take for granted as “natural” in our lives is actually cultural – it is not grounded in the natural world or in biology but invented by humans.[2] Because culture is invented, it takes different forms in different places and changes over time in those places.

    Living in the twenty-first century, we have witnessed how rapidly and dramatically culture can change, from ways of communicating to the emergence of same-sex marriage. Similarly, many of us live in culturally diverse settings and experience how varied human cultural inventions can be.

    We readily accept that clothing, language, and music are cultural-invented, created, and alterable – but often find it difficult to accept that gender and sexuality are not natural but deeply embedded in and shaped by culture. We struggle with the idea that the division of humans into two and only two categories, “male” and “female,” is not universal, that “male” and “female” are cultural concepts that take different forms and have different meanings cross-culturally.

    Similarly, human sexuality, rather than being simply natural is one of the most culturally significant, shaped, regulated, and symbolic of all human capacities. The concept of humans as either “heterosexual” or “homosexual” is a culturally and historically specific invention that is increasingly being challenged in the United States and elsewhere.

    Part of the problem is that gender has a biological component, unlike other types of cultural inventions such as a sewing machine, cell phone, or poem. We do have bodies and there are some male-female differences, including in reproductive capacities and roles, albeit far fewer than we have been taught. Similarly, sexuality, sexual desires and responses, are partially rooted in human natural capacities. However, in many ways, sexuality and gender are like food. We have a biologically rooted need to eat to survive and we have the capacity to enjoy eating.

    What constitutes “food,” what is “delicious” or “repulsive,” the contexts and meanings that surround food and human eating – those are cultural. Many potentially edible items are not “food” (rats, bumblebees, and cats in the United States, for example), and the concept of “food” itself is embedded in elaborate conventions about eating: how, when, with whom, where, “utensils,” for what purposes? A “romantic dinner” at a “gourmet restaurant” is a complex cultural invention.

  49. Juteman says:

    Like 99.5% of the population, I have no idea what ‘woke’ means, and don’t really give a fuck.
    Is it an anti independence insult?

  50. CameronB Brodie says:


    The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue

    Yeah most people don’t care about parking spaces for families with disabled pets. I wish they were woke like me.

    #woke #social justice #sjw #hipster #progressive #feelthebern

  51. Graeme says:

    There are 2 genders Male & Female and nature decides which one we are just like we don’t get to choose our parents, admittedly nature may not always get it right but we are what we are, we don’t have to like it but we have to live with it like it or not.

    If a man wishes to live like a woman, dress like a woman, grow his hair like a woman etc, that’s fine with me but he is a man that’s just a biological fact

  52. handclapping says:

    CBB @1536
    Thank you

  53. jfngw says:

    Just as I was reading this my computer informed me that my evolution-data-server has an update, what could be more transphobic, it even spotted what I was reading.

    Linux, possibly the most transphobic operating system?

  54. Robert Peffers says:

    What the hell is transphobic … … … Oh! Wait! have I just got myself classed as transphobic?

    They didn’t have such a thing when I was a boy … … Oh! Hell I’d best stop while I’m still ahead … … Err! Err!

    I’ll awa an keep quiet afore they come to get me.

  55. yesindyref2 says:

    If I was interested in such issues I’d go to blogs that address them. Sorry, life is too short to take an interest in everything.

    Focus! There’s Independence to be won and it won’t be long now.

  56. robbo says:

    Aw this transgender phobia mince does ma tits in.

  57. Giving Goose says:

    Let me get this right.
    If I wanted a multi cubicle toilet installed with each cubicle sound proofed then that would be transphobic because I didn’t want to hear a possible trans person in the next cubicle squeezing one out?

  58. CameronB Brodie says:

    Queer theory has added to the sensitivity and effectiveness of educational theory and public policy. However, sex-classes that are grounded in biology are essential to the effectiveness of sex-based human rights.

    SOCI 270: Sociology of Gender

    Course Description:

    This is an introductory course to the sociology of gender. Throughout the semester, we will explore a wide range of theories and experiences of gender, from scholarly and activist perspectives to popular representations of gender. We will examine how experiences of gender, sex, and sexuality intersect, and we will explore the patterning of socioeconomic and health outcomes and experiences of discrimination by gender identity. Theories of gender will also be applied to topics such beauty, education, sport, work, and religion….

  59. Liz g says:

    Ah but would Crowning Charles as a King and not a Queen be transphobic ?
    Not to mention all the gender specific titles the British Nationalists love so much!!!

  60. Clootie says:

    I really don’t care what the topic is. I follow simple guides.
    a) The rights of a few are to be respected BUT cannot dominate the rights of a much larger majority
    b) The IMPACT and the INTENT must be recognised by both sides.
    c) Threats of violence, closing down debate through aggressive means, should never be rewarded by giving ground.

    a) religious groups
    b) asking for a black coffee does not make you a racist.
    c) intimidating people trying to enter a meeting

    On this particular issue I have seen scientific fact dismissed with threats of violence. I have seen organised complaints to social media forums against individuals for stating established facts. I have seen a total disregard for the genuine concerns expressed by over half the population (Woman)

    As with any topic I reject rewarding aggressive minorities forcing a solution through. I am also very concerned that political parties, the police, public bodies etc are surrendering to the aggressors out with any debate and before any legislation passed.

  61. jfngw says:

    O/T but a tweet worth reading (not if you are a unionist).

  62. geeo says:

    winifred mccartney@2.49pm

    You mentioned the threat to womens sport there, so out of genuine curiousity, what do you think about the Castor Semenya case?

    She has been punished for her natural (female) genetic make up producing higher than ‘normal’ (funnily enough, that reads different if you use the word ‘Average’) testosterone levels, and after years of degrading treatment by, well, every agency going, has been told to medically REDUCE her natural testosterone levels to a level deemed as ‘fairer’ for those she competes against.

    Who decides what level it should be reduced to, for starters ?

    If she keeps winning, should it be reduced further until she stops winning ?

    As is, she is not even a world record holder at her chosen events on track, so actually, the issue is further clouded by that inconvenient fact, as making her potentially slower, has no sporting purpose at all.

    Castor Semenya is not Transgender, she certainly considers herself all woman, despite allegations that was not the case, a fact confirmed when she disgustingly was subjected to a ‘gender check’ as a young athlete. Considering the debate here, that gender check involved basically examining her genitals, to see ‘if she was indeed a man/woman or not’!

    Turns out, shock surprise, she was all woman and cleared to race.

    Bitter losers seems to have driven this particular witch hunt of a young athlete and shamefully, world athletics have went along with it.

    Her testosterone level is indeed higher than average, but does that really give her a FALSE advantage, like say, a drug cheat ?

    Sporting greats are littered with natural ‘freaks’ of nature, like say, swimmers with massive feet, or those near 7ft basketball legends.

    I do not recall anyone wishing to ‘sanction’ them to give other, less naturally endowed athletes, a ‘fairer’ chance to win.

    An interesting point to note in regards to athletics, is that, the Womens 400 metre world record, set by Marita Koch of the East German generation of athletes KNOWN and proven to have routinely cheated using performance enhancing drugs, and where athletics removed lots of world record achievements by those athletes, still recognises that record in the 400m.

    This despite Koch being found to have used banned anabolic steroids to set most, if not all, of her 16 world records over several years.

    It is a record rarely got anywhere near in the last 34 years.

    So an obvious drug cheat, keeps her tainted WR yet a young woman with a NATURALLY OCCURING advantage, is violated to prove she is a woman and forcibly disadvantaged for that, when other naturally advantages athletes are not.

    All the above, and not a ‘trans activist’ in sight.

    Womens sport is doing a good job of bringing itself into disrepute without any help.

  63. Scozzie says:

    Stu, as a female I truly thank you from the bottom of my heart for drawing attention to this issue and standing up for the rights of the female biological sex. Our classification of our biological sex is being reduced to nothing more than a ‘feeling of being a woman’ in this transgender debate.

    It is totally warped in every sense – what is going on with our politicians who are accepting this ‘crank science’? How the hell can gender trump biological sex?

    In my opinion the GRA as it stands is sound, and many transsexuals agree. Self ID is so open to abuse and quite frankly, the trans-activists appear to me as pathological nutters!!!

    I have never in my life identified as a feminist but I will not stand for my biological sex to be erased in this way.

    I know you’ve had some criticism for highlighting the trans debate but please know there are so many women that are thankful for your support. Please keep up the good work of supporting women.

  64. Giving Goose says:

    To think Danny La Rue was at one time cutting edge in the gender stakes.

  65. dakk says:

    That picture is like something out of the 70s classic film’The Warriors’.

    I’m all for for minorities standing up for their rights,but they look like they’ve been watching too many movies.

    If they are serious about using those weopons then we do seem to be moving towards a more surreal dystopian world.

    This article has certainly ensured any strong opinions I may have had on the matter have been neutered.

  66. orri says:

    Is it bad I thought that picture was a kind of “Lost Boys” “The Warriors” tribute act? Or is it I went to uni in the 80’s and the New Romantics, never mind Boy George and Adam Ant were about. Not to mention the 70’s and Glam rock, or 60’s and flower power.

    Obviously Jack Sparrow is transphobic too.

  67. Golfnut says:

    Surely every single one that lot were arrested for carrying offensive weapons, as for the axe weilder, that surely is demonstrating an intention to kill.

  68. Noel Darlow says:

    Mr Campbell is once again displaying his ignorance of gender issues.

  69. CameronB Brodie says:

    Noel Darlow
    I’m not saying whether I think you are right or wrong, but would you care to elaborate?

  70. Robert Peffers says:

    @jfngw says:30 May, 2019 at 4:12 pm:

    ” … O/T but a tweet worth reading (not if you are a unionist).

    That’s a great comment, ifngw.
    Just about 30 seconds before reading it I was finishing my evening meal and it was my first chance to think through the events of the day so far. The though that was running through my head as I sat back down at the computer was about today’s FMQ’s.

    I had just thought to myself that the unionists leaders and questioners seem not to have learned anything after the events of the past week.

    Wall to wall running down Scotland and accusing the SNP of everything except perhaps genocide. Earlier I had rerun a video of a Holyrood debate about the Bifab yard probably losing out and the fabrication of the wind turbines for the wind farm off the mouth of the Forth being built across the other side of the World and shipped round the globe to Scotland.

    The way the unionists, and particularly the Tories and Willie Rennie, had it the fault was all due to the SNP.

    The unionists were gubbed in the EU elections and anyone being handed that sharp lesson would have realised their past tactics were leading to their total wipe out in Scotland and instead of changing tack they stick with the same tactics and step up the attacks.

    Do they not realise they are the ones causing their decline – not the SNP. So it is madness to keep doing what doesn’t work for them.

    The people, the voters, at least the bulk of them, are full of praise for the SNP yet these numpties, in spite of being often invited by the FM to work with the SNP for a better Scotland, step up the bitter attacks, the public know are bullshit, and further lose the public’s support.

  71. Welsh Sion says:

    Off topic – For those more into politics than gender issues.

    Adam at work.

    Dear member,

    I have today written to the leaders of the other pro-Remain parties to ask for urgent meetings to discuss how we can work together to beat Brexit.

    In my letter to the leaders of the Liberal Democrats (Wales and UK), the SNP, the Greens (Wales, England and Wales, and Scotland), and Change UK, I said that the need for cooperation is now urgent.

    I am of the view that that cooperation should last as long as is necessary to deliver a People’s Vote and ensure that Wales is not dragged towards a no deal Brexit for which there is no mandate.

    As Plaid Cymru Leader, I am prepared to have an open discussion with those parties about how best we can work together in Westminster, in a referendum, and in any potential general election.

    The European election showed that Plaid Cymru is Wales’ party of Remain, and I am determined that we will show the necessary leadership to protect Wales’ interests.

    We cannot accept anything that would cause damage to Wales and our communities, and pro-Remain parties now have a responsibility to work together to avoid that.

    For Wales,

    Adam Price AM
    Plaid Cymru Leader

  72. Hamish100 says:

    Help me. I’m phobic

  73. Scozzie says:

    you Caster Semenya example is a complete misnomer as she is intersex. The trans debate is about male to female or female to male gender preferences.
    If you want to discuss trans people in female sports and the advantages they bring due to male physiology, why don’t you look up Hannah Mouncey (Australian footballer), or how trans competitors at track and field are completely reducing female sport to a pointless activity.

    Females cannot compete with biological males in strength and speed. That is why we have a separate categorisation in all forms of elite sport. Allowing biological males who happen to identify as female (regardless of hormone treatment) will always have a competitive advantage due to their male physiology.

  74. Bob Mack says:

    I think I’ve lived too long. I find these activists repetitive and boring now.

  75. Hamish100 says:

    No your not

  76. Bob Mack says:

    Repetetive Darn it.

  77. Hamish100 says:

    Response was to myself and no other!

  78. CameronB Brodie says:

    “Off topic – For those more into politics than gender issues.”

    Sorry but I’m honestly surprise at the crassness of that comment.

    The Effects of Confusing Sex and Gender

    When we allow the misuse of words, or blur the meanings of words important to our movement, and to radical politics in general, we are weakening our position.

    Though sex is biological, legitimately dichotomous except in rare instances of intersex individuals: female or male, gender is entirely contrived. Gender is a construct of, and for the benefit of, patriarchy: masculine or feminine. Even the World Health Organization, hardly a bastion of feminist sensibility, is (sometimes) clearer on sex and gender (see also Note (1)):

    “Sex” refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define
    men and women.

    “Gender” refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities,
    and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and

  79. CameronB Brodie says:

    OK, so the World Health Organisation can’t really be considered woke.

    Gender, equity and human rights

    Gender—gender requires us to ensure that health policy, programmes, services and delivery models are responsive to the needs of women, men, girls and boys in all their diversity.

    Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed. While most people are born either male or female, they are taught appropriate norms and behaviours – including how they should interact with others of the same or opposite sex within households, communities and work places.

    When individuals or groups do not “fit” established gender norms they often face stigma, discriminatory practices or social exclusion – all of which adversely affect health. It is important to be sensitive to different identities that do not necessarily fit into binary male or female sex categories.

    Gender norms, roles and relations influence people’s susceptibility to different health conditions and diseases and affect their enjoyment of good mental, physical health and wellbeing. They also have a bearing on people’s access to and uptake of health services and on the health outcomes they experience throughout the life-course.

    There are often misconceptions about terms related to gender. Learn more by reading the glossary of terms related to gender, equity and human rights….

  80. Capella says:

    This is an important political issue and one that directly affects 50% of the population i.e. those born female.
    Changes in policy in public services such as the NHS, Prisons, schools, volunteer organisations and charities (forced in cases where funding is dependent on allowing transgender women with male bodies access to refuges, rape crisis centres etc.) put women at risk.

    It goes way beyond toilets and changing rooms though that is bad enough. Someone has to stop this madness and I think it is legitimate for a political blog to raise it.

    We all have to understand what is being done, often in secret, to remove the rights of women in Scotland. So Stu is quite right to point out the storm of abuse that many women and men are now subjected to for stating the most basic biological facts.

  81. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Wondering what this has to do with indyref2”

    Pay more fucking attention, then.

  82. stu mac says:

    @geeo says:
    30 May, 2019 at 2:28 pm

    Stu mac@2.12pm

    Oh right, so because i choose to respect everyone’s decision to live their life, as they see fit, as i get on with living mine, and feel no need to get involved in their lives, issues with stuff leading from their life choices/situations, then YOU attack ME for MY view in regards to that ??

    NO. 1) I didn’t attack you. I stated you had missed the point. A list of areas where really nasty attacks are made for no good reason and you go on about live and let live? I actually presumed you had missed the point and hadn’t understood the issue. However it seems you maybe did and and are fine with folk being subjects of abuse and untruths defended and promulgated in the nastiest way.

    So sorry, was i not fucking offended enough for you?
    Should i be offended/bothered, just to please you ?
    Away and shite.

    Oh? Seems you’re fine with the kind of abuse the REv’s attacking, here it is from you – and I’ve noticed you giving it out to other posters here.

    Because i take that view, DOES NOT mean i do not understand the issues ffs.

    If true then you’re fine with all those folk being attacked on line .. seeing the way you seem to respond to something of a mild statement (i.e that you might have missed a point) I can understand it. Or maybe you just have anger issues?

    NB Please note, I’ve not replied to your abuse in kind.

  83. Confused says:

    Monty Pythons Life of Brian, also – the judean peoples front in discussion with Reg

    – I mean, obviously, someone is at the social engineering and doing the room 101 power play : 2 + 2 = ?
    4, sometimes, but it can also be 3, or 5 depending on how we feel
    – truth is what we say it is, that is all

    and if you object the twitter witchfinder generals and purple haired red guards will hunt you down

    this is not about biology, or science, facts and logic it is about the right to define reality by exercise of social power – and such an atrocity must always be opposed

    there is no making peace with the insane and vindictive, so you need to purposefully enrage them at any opportunity – the only pleasure one can obtain from a tranny is in – sending them into a blind rage – triggering them is beautiful, but over-easy

    XY means youre a guy
    no womb, you aint no woman
    a man with his balls cutoff
    a hairyarse in a wig
    the dick emery appreciation society
    the sodomites

  84. geeo says:

    @stu mac.

    By TELLING me what i think, rather than listening to it, you are forcing YOUR opinion of my words upon me.

    That is an attack.

    I know my views, and i explained them in great detail.

    If you do not like that, then tough titty.

    If you want to know my view, fucking ask me, but do not presume it for me.

    I never agreed with anyone, i stated it has never affected ME so i steer clear.

    That does not mean i agree with negative things trans activists are doing.

    You do not have the right to presume my non disclosed views for me.

    I do not do that to you, do I ?

    Now feck off and go talk for yourself.

  85. stu mac says:

    This has been said before by others (and no doubt better than me) but one reason why this seeming madness gets some political support is because it is a useful (for them) distraction from directing energy at real and more important social problems. OK the promulgators may appear to be nutcases (actually a lot aren’t, they’re kind of real-life trolls, enjoying bullying others) but a lot of folk, who would normally support good social causes but who don’t think things through to well get caught up in it (and other similar stuff) and so get diverted from where their nergies would be much better spent.

  86. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.s. from the perspective of cultural anthropology, states are masculine and nations feminine. Ergo, One Nation British nationalism is a form of misogynistic rational paternalism.

  87. susan says:

    Thanks Rev for bringing this up. No its not Indy related but it IS being punted by both the Indy parties; SNP and Green. It has been slipped into position in a very low key, sleekit way after much lobbying by TQ groups. It’s just not on.

  88. Robert Peffers says:

    @Noel Darlow says: 30 May, 2019 at 4:52 pm:

    ” … Mr Campbell is once again displaying his ignorance of gender issues.”

    That’ll be in your humble opinion, of course, Noel?

    Now I’m in no way the kind of guy who is biased against any human being as to me there is only one race. It is called the human race.

    This lot strike me as acting like gangsters and if it wasn’t this issue they were espousing they’d invent one.

  89. Noel Darlow says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    The key point is are our minds gendered? Our bodies (obviously) are, as far as that goes but that’s not very far. There’s a limit to the relevance of reproductive physiology.

    If our minds aren’t innately gendered (and they appear not to be eg see Prof Gina Rippon) then gender doesn’t exist. It’s just a meme, a social norm.

    There will be men who don’t conform to stereotypically “male” behaviours & characteristics and women who aren’t stereotypically “female”. Male or female, our individuality would be plucked from the same broad spectrum of cognitive abilities & personality traits which does not innately vary with reproductive sex.

    Body dysmorphia might then be traced to individuals who are intensely uncomfortable in the gender role society expects from their reproductive sex (rather than the idea of a biologically male mind trapped in a female body or vice versa). Or we can simply take a practical view and accept the advice and best practice of the medical profession which recognises this as a serious condition (Mr Campbell displays the usual populist disdain for genuine expertise).

    Basically, our ideas of what it means to be a man or a woman deserve to be challenged. Talking about gender (a powerful social norm) as if it were a biological fact is a basic category error.

  90. Millsy says:

    RIGHT YOU LOT – YES , YOU ! I am reporting ALL of YOU for breaching the Transgender code of conduct for even THINKING about this issue .

  91. Essexexile says:

    That’s the problem though.
    While the FM has booted indy waaay down the road to a time when the political situation might lead to a S30 being granted, the hardcore feminists who have their hooks well and truly into the SNP can push their agenda knowing they have NS full attention with indy out of the way.
    I’m all for waiting for the right moment but beginning to seriously wonder what the priorities are.

  92. Dan says:

    Earlier I thought I was living the dream as I spent the morning getting dirty with a beautiful 35 year old German topless model that required some attention…

    Now I learn that my use of both male and female electrical connectors whilst repairing the wiring loom on a Golf convertible could potentially be construed as a hate crime by some.

    Quickly self IDs as a table to avoid capture…

  93. Capella says:

    This has nothing to do with “hard core feminists” – quite the opposite. The baseball bats in the photo are often accompanied by fantasies of vicious attacks on feminists – called TERFs (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists). This is a hard core anti feminist movement.

    For example:
    There’s a limit to the relevance of reproductive physiology.

    Not of you are born female. It is usually used to define your entire existence. Alabama is a good example ATM.

  94. geeo says:

    @Scozzie 5.09pm

    You may want to fact check that claim that Castor Semenya is ‘intersex’ as that is based on media claims her ‘gender test’ was leaked and there were ‘aspects’ of intersex’ noted.

    Her ACTUAL test results were not released but by allowing her to continue to compete as a woman, until using her naturally high testosterone levels as the new stick to beat her with, makes it very clear she WAS NOT ‘intersex’.

    In fact, high testosterone levels could fall into what the leak said were “aspects of intersex”

    Key word ASPECTS.

    That, given the green light to continue competing in womens events, clearly indicates that high testosterone was the ONLY concerning aspect of her testing.

    In other words, all woman but with high testosterone levels.

    The world governing body then went on to discuss if those high levels gave her an unfair sporting advantage.

    your entire intersex claim is unsubstantiated nonsense, based on a high testosterine level in her results, which the salubrious media pack were desperate to turn into a ‘juicy’ story.

    Semenya lost a championship race, where people thought she ‘threw’ it to avoid more controversy, but even that was wrongful speculation, as she had never run the winners time before and the winner was later banned and stripped of the title for drug cheating.

    How ironic that you want wonens rights defended from trans activists (nothing wrong with that btw) yet are too eager to spread rumours and lies about a young female athlete persecuted by all and sundry for no other crime than having a higher than usual testosterone level.

    Yet on here, i am attacked for not supporting women from trans activists (stu mac) while defending a young woman being denigrated by another woman for no good reason.

    Go figure huh ?

    Now you see why i just live and let live, personally.

    Too many unreasonable fruitcakes on all sides.

  95. CameronB Brodie says:

    Noel Darlow
    I’m open to queerness, it’s just I’m concerned with protecting the internal linkages between biology, equity and human rights. Self-ID of sex will disrupt the coherence of legal doctrine and harm the cultural foundations of human meaning. That does not appear a reasonable cost for the appeasement of misogynistic narcissism, IMHO.

    Sex Differences in the Adult Human Brain:
    Evidence from 5216 UK Biobank Participants


    Sex differences in the human brain are of interest for many reasons: for example, there are sex differences in the observed prevalence of psychiatric disorders and in some psychological traits that brain differences might help to explain. We report the largest single-sample study of structural and functional sex differences in the human brain (2750 female, 2466 male participants; mean age 61.7 years, range 44–77 years).

    Males had higher raw volumes, raw surface areas, and white matter fractional anisotropy; females had higher raw cortical thickness and higher white matter tract complexity. There was considerable distributional overlap between the sexes.

    Subregional differences were not fully attributable to differences in total volume, total surface area, mean cortical thickness, or height. There was generally greater male variance across the raw structural measures. Functional connectome organization showed stronger connectivity for males in unimodal sensorimotor cortices, and stronger connectivity for females in the default mode network.

    This large-scale study provides a foundation for attempts to understand the causes and consequences of sex differences in adult brain structure and function.

    Keywords: brain volume, cortical thickness, fMRI, sex differences, surface area

  96. Ken500 says:

    Most women are really tolerate of others. Most people have a mother. Mothers and others love their children. A bit of empathy might help. Especially for those who are a bit different to the norm. What is all the fuss about? It affects a small % of people and can be dealt with constructively. What are they all fighting about. It almost reflects how gay people used to be persecuted.

  97. Normski says:

    “72. Gendering cats is transphobic.”

    Best not mention then that my boy cat has a blue name tag on his collar and my girl cat has a pink name tag.

    And Lynsey Sharp is a TERF (and a racist) apparently.

  98. robbo says:

    telt yi this would all get on ma tits.Should i cut them off? What would i be then?

  99. Abulhaq says:

    The English/American language is a veritable minefield. So called ‘politically correct’ language is stunting discourse, argument, debate and deriding alternative opinion. The language is being totalitarianised. Such a process happened to Nazi German, Soviet Russian and Maoist Chinese. The fact that this is occurring under self-defining democratic systems is more than troubling.
    A brave new western world, especially social media, is seemingly populated by the immature, the gobby, the self-obsessed and the pedlars of unreason. The saying ‘empty vessels make make most sound’ incarnate.
    In the culture I came from they’d be eaten alive, poor things.

  100. Normski says:


    “She has been punished for her natural (female) genetic make up…”

    Semenya and her advisors refused to release the details of the tests to determine this. Draw your own conclusions.

    “… she disgustingly was subjected to a ‘gender check’ as a young athlete…”

    Complete bollocks. Gender checks in sport have for about the past 30+ years or so been a simple gum swab to determine XX or XY. Semenya and her advisors refused to disclose the result. Draw your own conclusions.

  101. Capella says:

    Interesting post by Morag on the Week in the War on Women thread re Semenya – see also the post immediately above it:

  102. CameronB Brodie says:

    I might get back to the brain science in a bit, but here’s some political theory to think about for now. Sorry, I can find an open text.

    A Realistic Vision? Roberto Unger on Law and Politics


    This paper considers Roberto Unger’s views on legal reasoning. His account is defended against two misplaced attacks. The first critique is by Emilios Christodoulidis. Using the language of systems theory, Christodoulidis contends that Unger’s programme of democratic experimentalism cannot be achieved through law, as the constitutive structure of the legal system is immune to politics. Christodoulidis accuses Unger of attempting to reduce law to politics. It will be argued, however, that Unger does no such thing.

    The second attack holds that Unger’s criticisms of objectivism apply to his own democratic vision and that, as a result, he cannot promote this vision without self-contradiction. Again, it will be argued that this criticism rests on a misunderstanding of Unger’s views. The paper concludes with a tentative objection to the substantive proposals of Unger’s work, suggesting that they ought to be replaced by a pluralist account of value.

    democracy, legal reasoning, objectivity, pluralism, politics, systems theory, Unger

  103. CameronB Brodie says:

    Noel Darlow
    I think this article address your point particularly well. Full text.

    Queer Genes: Realism, Sexuality and Science


    What are ‘gay genes’ and are they real? This article looks at key research into these hypothesized gay genes, made possible, in part, by the Human Genome Project. I argue that the complexity of both genetics and human sexuality demands a truly critical approach: one that takes into account feminist epistemologies of science and queer approaches to the body, while putting into conversation resources from agential realism and critical realism.

    This approach is able to maintain the agential complexity of genetic materiality, while also critically challenging the seemingly stable relationships between sex, gender and sexuality.

    keywords: agential realism, critical realism, feminist standpoint epistemologies, gay genes, queer, situated knowledges

  104. CameronB Brodie says:

    That should have read I can’t find a full text for the Roberto Unger paper.

    Noel Darlow
    Here’s some cognitive science that responds to your comment.

    Sex-related variation in human behavior and the brain

    Male and female fetuses differ in testosterone concentrations beginning as early as week 8 of gestation. This early hormone difference exerts permanent influences on brain development and behavior. Contemporary research shows that hormones are particularly important for the development of sex-typical childhood behavior, including toy choices, which until recently were thought to result solely from sociocultural influences.

    Prenatal testosterone exposure also appears to influence sexual orientation and gender identity, as well as some, but not all, sex-related cognitive, motor and personality characteristics. Neural mechanisms responsible for these hormone-induced behavioral outcomes are beginning to be identified, and current evidence suggests involvement of the hypothalamus and amygdala, as well as interhemispheric connectivity, and cortical areas involved in visual processing….

  105. Republicofscotland says:

    Oh jeez how will I get to the shops for groceries without being transphobic. Best just to crawl back under the duvet.

  106. geeo says:

    Actually, it was the IAAC who refused to release the test results.

    The same ruling group who ALLOWED HER TO CONTINUE COMPETING IN WOMENS ATHLETIC COMPETITION in full knowledge of her results.

    Draw your own conclusions from that, you ignorant fool.

  107. Lenny Hartley says:

    Saw somebody on Twitter say that Politics and things have gone tits up (wonder i am offending there) since the Large Hadron Collider at Cerne went into operation.
    He was joking but may have a point 🙂

  108. Illy says:

    Oh look, it’s Stu shitting on me for wanting to use a public bathroom again.

    Can you stop it with the hyperbole please?

  109. There is a poll on the Dundee Courier just now –
    scroll down and you’ll find it.

    Nicola Sturgeon has said it would be a democratic outrage if a Second Indyref 2 was denied – do you agree or disagree?

    Currently on 57% for no and 42% for yes after 1,900 votes

  110. ronnie anderson says:

    Am at 21 that Raynard the fox is ah sneeky bastward

  111. Giving Goose says:

    Noel Darlow

    Ok so minds may not be gendered, but biology is and if a man who identifies as a woman doesn’t have ovaries then that person is a man. Correct?

  112. Hamish100 says:

    Has Edna from the lib dems got a view on this (watch FMQ’s)?

  113. CameronB Brodie says:

    And here’s some up-to-date thoughts on Roberto Unger and how his philosophy and legal thinking might help resolve the current confrontation between the interests of men’s rights and social equality.

    On the Road to Radical Reform: A Critical Review of Unger’s Politics


    Two aims drive this essay. The first is to provide the reader with an accessible, yet relatively comprehensive, introduction to Roberto Mangabeira Unger’s social and legal theory. The second aim is to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of Unger’s most recent scholarship and to make some suggestions as to where he goes awry.

    In particular, the author draws several parallels between the Ungerian enterprise and that of some feminists. The central motivation of the essay is to keep the critical conversation between male radicals and feminists open. To this end, the author posits the possibility of mutually beneficial contributions.

  114. Dr Jim says:

    Biology isn’t really science

    Physicist joke!

  115. @HandandShrimp,

    the sexing of skeletons is not as precise as our BBC historians and grave robbers like to portray,

    like the `Richard III` skeleton in the car park or the 4000 year old `Ava` skeleton found in Caithness,

    the atribution of sex to these skeletons fit the agenda more than the science,

    worth a read,

    `Research Article`
    The Difficulty of Sexing Skeletons from Unknown Populations,


    how can a historian/grave robber, in todays `woke` world, sex a skeleton when the owner of the skeleton might have had a different view on their sexual identity,

    not sure but i think the BBC grave robber Alice Roberts got herself in a bit of a twitter cul de sac with that conundrum.

  116. Corrado Mella says:

    It’s another “divide et impera” trick in the weaponry of the 1%.

    Disseminating strife is their way to keep the masses distracted from their parasitic existence.
    This too will pass, just ignore the idiots.

    Oh, before you accuse me of transphobia, I have three (YES, THREE) transgender children.

    They’re stupid and insufferable, they don’t make sense, speak in memes, as every other teenager does.

    Yep, not because of their sexual preferences, their chosen gender or other trait. But because they behave like arseholes, like every normal teenager does with their parents.

  117. Giving Goose says:

    If I practiced mysosgyny and excluded a trans person from my mysogyny could I then be accused of transphobia?
    Gosh! This a social niceties mine field.

  118. Hamish100 says:

    Rev. or is it Revess — is there something you are trying to tell us? lol

  119. galamcennalath says:

    Meg merrilees says:

    Nicola Sturgeon has said it would be a democratic outrage if a Second Indyref 2 was denied – do you agree or disagree?

    So far, a majority of Courier fans saying, NO it wouldn’t be a democratic outrage.

    Well, all I can say to those people is … what would you actually consider to be a democratic outrage?

    They don’t want independence because they have some personal vested interests in the UK continuing. I can see that. However, I think it is morally reprehensible to be willing to cast aside democracy to get their own way.

  120. Ian Brotherhood says:

    This is one of the very few topics that I’v always avoided commenting on, partly because the whole issue is so jargon-ridden, but mostly because it seems to generate such aggression.

    Having watched several very serious fall-outs between indy supporters on various aspects of it all, it’s hard to avoid the obvious conclusion i.e. that the rational, more sober analysts on ‘our’ side are being intimidated into silence by those who have thrown their lot in with a vociferous narcissistic zealots. And if they dare break that silence – as Rev has, repeatedly – they are instantly castigated, forever stamped as ‘bigots’.

    I don’t know enough about the subject to be able to offer any comment on any of it (e.g. I honestly didn’t know a definition of ‘woke’ until reading CBB’s comment upthread) but most of us have been reading this and other indy-related sites for a long time and we’ve come to know a very wide range of folk who are experts on all sorts of things. From now on I’m not going to avoid these arguments – even if I can’t contribute to them I know who I trust and, therefore, feel comfortable supporting if/when forced to take a side.

    It’s surely not just coincidence that the indy supporters who seem most inclined to slap-down the non-‘woke’ among us just happen to be the same voices who sow division and upset across a range of other topics. It wouldn’t be fair to name them here, but I suspect most of us have a fair idea of who they are and, more importantly perhaps, so do they.

    Aye, there are plenty of other hills on which most of us would prefer to ‘die’ (it’s just a saying, right?!) but this one has the potential to be one of the costliest. We have to be careful, calm, and support one another.

  121. ronnie anderson says:

    Robert Peffers

    Hud oan tae yer tackle , they tranphobe’s ur sneeky bastwards they go aboot in the night like Wee Wullie Winky stealing wee boys magic wands lol .

  122. mike cassidy says:

    Some thoughts.

    1)The irony of Castor Semenya’s case

    is that if she had said she was a man identifying as a woman

    she would have had no problems at all.

    2)Does anybody know whether women identifying as men are causing or having similar problems?

    3)Did anybody publicly complain about the new royal baby being referred to as a boy?

  123. geeo says:

    Meanwhile, back on Castor Semenya, a female athlete being run ot of athletics by the IAAF rather than trans activists, nutjob ones or chilled out ones….

    She has taken her case to CAS (Court of Arbritation for Sport).

    And frankly, she has a very strong case, since the IAAF very recently changed their rules to force female testosterone below a mandatory level decided by, well, mostly white middle aged men in suits (ducks for cover) to specifically defy the previous CAS precedent on female athletes/sportswomen, with high natural testosterone levels (hyperandrogenism)


    the court (CAS) suspended the practice of hyperandrogenism regulation used by the IAAF. The practice will be declared void if the organization fails to present better evidence by July 2017.


    Members of the same clinical hormone evaluation team (Working for CAS) report there is NO EVIDENCE that innate hyperandrogenism in elite women athletes CONFERS AN ADVANTAGE IN SPORT.

    Raised levels of testosterone have not been shown to give an unfair advantage to the athlete.

    Scholars question whether this advantage can really be considered “unfair” if it is a naturally occurring and out of the control of the athlete.

    For example, elite athletes have a greater aerobic capacity and endurance in comparison to the majority of people. 

    The case has been criticized as showing vulnerability of women athletes to unnecessary medical interventions under duress, with no evidence of cheating and no evidence of athletic advantage.

    Castor looks like she has a very strong case to take to CAS, and will damn the attitude of the IAAF in the process.

    CAS will not take lightly, the IAAF attitude of trying to circumvent their latest ruling on hyperandrogenism testing by simply changing the rules to suit themselves.

    They (IAAF) were ordered to find better testing and when they couldn’t, but rather than comply with the CAS previous ruling on testing guidelines, have tried to ‘game’ the rules by changing the criteria.

    CAS will not like their authority openly subverted by IAAF.

    I expect Castor Semenya to win this case, and hope she takes her rightful place, unadulterated, back on the stage her talent deserves to be showcased.

    This topic on Wings is partly about protecting womens rights against aggressive trans activism, yet when i highlight that an international athletics body is actively TELLING WOMEN athletes how much testosterone they are ‘allowed’ to be considered a FEMALE athlete, i have been attacked for it, and by at least one woman !!

    Its a funny old world huh ?

  124. Capella says:

    @ Meg merrilees – something fishy about that Courier poll. I’ve just voted twice but it didn’t change the total. Now there are 1,882 votes, down from the 1,900 you saw!

    56.96% (1,072 votes)
    43.04% (810 votes)

    Total Votes: 1,882

  125. geeo says:

    Mike Cassidy@7.21pm

    Exactly right, there are NO sex testing guidelines never mind testing, for male athletes.

  126. Ahundredthidiot says:

    what we need of course is lots of new Laws so that if anyone disagrees with our mental illness we can put them in prison.

    For now.

    (later on we will try to re-educate them….and if that fails, we can always gas them)

  127. Michael Cameron says:

    They remade Xfiles?

  128. mike cassidy says:

    Ian 7.20

    I’ve pointed out this before.

    And it is the one really serious point.

    There are men out there -clearly violent and misogynistic –

    who are taking advantage of the promotion of equality for transgender people

    especially the promotion of acceptance of non-biological gender identity

    to claim that they are now identifying as women

    and that this identification now entitles them to inhabit those ‘spaces’ previously seen as safe spaces for women.

    eg women’s refuges

    Do not doubt for a second that this is a declaration of war on women.

    Ironically, it appears the one group in society who are truly fecked are women who identify as women.

  129. robbo says:

    Well it says now after my vote.

    Thank you for voting!
    56.73% (1,075 votes)

    43.27% (820 votes)

    Total Votes: 1,895

  130. ronnie anderson says:

    Ur wee expected tae walk this way noo . LoL

  131. CameronB Brodie says:

    I wish I didn’t feel bound to being sensible, as there’s a lot of scope for humour with this nonsense (self-ID). Apparently though, this is what happens when I turn my back for a decade or three. Time for some Critical Realism? 🙂

    Critical Realism, Gender and Feminism: Exchanges, Challenges, Synergies

  132. Clydebuilt says:

    Are”Trans Issues” being foisted onto Scottish politics to cause problems for the ruling party.

    Seems to be working a treat.

    If this Gender Recognition Act makes it through the parliament the S MSM will run amok.

  133. Ahundredthidiot says:

    why should someones right not to be offended trump my right to free speech

  134. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    In support of being supportive, I think I’ll stop using “woke”. Ill-informed, left-leaning, ‘liberals’ doesn’t have quite the same psychological impact on the reader though. Perhaps “wrong-headed” is both appropriate and less antagonistic? Or what about “gender-blind”?

  135. Dan says:

    I had a wee chuckle at the Warriors comments upthread.

    Surely folk posturing on the internet with axes, sledgehammers, and baseball bats in a threatening and intimidating behaviour towards others is wrong.
    Maybe in Scotland we need to put together a threatening communications and an offensive behaviour to females act…

  136. Capella says:

    The MSM are already sharpening their knives, and that is before the GRA bill is amended. Let’s hope common sense prevails and SelfID is not automatically rolled out.

    However, many public services are already applying it in the mistaken belief that SelfID is good practice. It isn’t.

  137. PacMan says:

    Identity politics compared to other social issues, costs little to implement. Therefore it is an easy and lost costly policy for political parties to jump on and garner support from wholly headed liberal sort who are the most politically active and able to ‘spread the message’ among undecided’s.

  138. HandandShrimp says:


    Sexing skeletons may be more problematical than TV archaeology suggests but they still only use a binary set of options…male or female based on perceived biology.

    Gutted Stu hasn’t added archaeology to the list (obviously I’m not I never think about this subject unless it crops up on here)

  139. PacMan says:

    re: Comparisons of Warriors movie.

    I’d suggest Bronx Warriors which is mashup of The Worriors, Clockwork orange, Escape from New York city and nearly every other associated movie of that genre which the jokers in the picture of this article would fit right into.

  140. PacMan says:

    Dan says:
    30 May, 2019 at 7:54 pm

    Surely folk posturing on the internet with axes, sledgehammers, and baseball bats in a threatening and intimidating behaviour towards others is wrong.

    If those individuals walked down any street of Scotland, people would be making way for them and calling ‘make way for the gangsters’ but it would be done out of mocking rather than fear 🙂

  141. Muscleguy says:

    I’m a former Biomedical scientist specialising in Developmental Biology and I understand how sex determination works during development. I know Robin Lovell-Badge who discovered Sry, the male determination gene*. I also know how it works (it bends dna).

    NOBODY can tell me people can become members of the opposite sex by self declaration.

    I am not against Trans people. I am against TRA’s and the current assault on safe spaces and safeguarding of women and girls. I am brother to three sisters, father to two daughters and uncle to five nieces and their safety is a major matter to me. I need to know they are safe from predators like Karen White.

    I am DEEPLY suspicious of the Queer Everything agenda and Mermaids’ attempt to sexualise children. I want the Tavistock gender clinic investigated properly, a major scandal is brewing there. Government and the regulators are supine. Brave psychiatrists have resigned from it rather than be complicit in the harms going on there.

    Proper psychiatrists tell us homophobia is behind much Trans desire. If you are being bullied by classmates and/or your family for being same sex attracted declaring you are the other sex seems a good solution. You can fancy your girlfriend if you’re a boy.

    Kids need to be told that all this will pass and they can be who they really are. Instead they are fed puberty blockers and encouraged to get desexed, irreversibly.

    It is a fundamental tenet of modern medicine that just because you can treat something doesn’t always mean you should. The Tavistock seems to have forgotten this and the first principle of Hypocrates: First do no harm.

  142. Muscleguy says:

    Sorry forgot my asterisk.

    *The female developmental program needs no determining factor, it’s the default program. You can be XY and morphologically female (but infertile) if there is a fault in the male determination program. Most Trans people are not such, though I am happy to allow that some like that may wish to transition to be morphologically male.

    I also understand how sex reassignment surgery can happen and it’s all tied to the devleopment. The lining of the scrotum is the tunica vaginalis. Handy that.

  143. Davie Oga says:

    The SNP appear to be risk adverse at times, solid management, governing in the centre ground in order to instill confidence and build support for independence. Yet here they are promoting a policy that gets up the back of women, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Scientists, men with wives and daughters, sane people, and a lot of other demographics. A bit of a risk to take so that male lesbians have the right to get their tadgers out in female changing rooms. Madness.

  144. ronnie anderson says:

    Cappella ( there’s something fishy about the Courier poll ) Of cause there is its Klik Bait to get revenues from the unwary , If your not bying the Britnat media news print then why would you’s contribute

  145. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Does this spell the impending break up of the Union?

    Not the doomed UKGB+NI … the hitherto expansionist LGBTQIA+

    Are the T’s going to declare UDI ?

    They don’t seem to have much in common with any of the others, you could say that they were the “odd men out”…but be sure to don a vitriol proof suit before you do.

    What about the P’s? Will the P’s get back into the fold?

    Although they have been ostracized of late, they still have a lot of friends in political circles and the fact that the medical profession (motto – first do no harm) is permitted to manufacture T’s, is proof that with a bit of Orwellian Newspeak,
    Anything is possible.

  146. Dan says:

    PacMan says: at 8:09 pm

    If those individuals walked down any street of Scotland, people would be making way for them and calling ‘make way for the gangsters’ but it would be done out of mocking rather than fear.

    They are all carrying long shafted weapons that take time to swing, so rather than move away it’d be better to move in really close and give them a hug so they can’t whack you!

    This is what happens when society swaps their Air Max for Ava Max… everyone’s gotten Sweet but Psycho.

    Does this situation stem from the era of removing winners from school sports day and children learning in their formative years how to deal with their strength and weaknesses.
    Just because you got yer arse handed to you in a sack / three legged / egg and spoon race doesn’t mean life will forever more be shite for you.

    The good news is that there’s now so many fookin snowflakes in Scotland we can have a year round ski season!

  147. Capella says:

    @ ronnie – I get it ronnie, although I believe it’s really “click-through” rates which boost MSM income i.e. people then clicking on adverts.

    The few thousand who click on the poll aren’t going to make the Courier look much more popular than it is. So I balance the aim of boosting the YES vote against giving the Courier a small, but economically unimportant, boost in visits.

  148. Col.Blimp IV says:


    That was co-incidence rather than plagiarism.

    I had yet to read your post, every word of which I agree with.

  149. Ken500 says:

    There has been mixed changing rooms in swimming pools etc for years. With absolutely no problems. There are separate cubicles and family changing rooms. It is absolutely no problem. There could be separate unisex toilets. Without much problems. A variety so people could use what they like. There are unisex toilets, separate cubicles, in many restaurants and cafes. Especially smaller ones. No problems,

  150. Illy says:

    Ahh, the comments here make me feel so loved.

    Everyone is not only calling me a rapist and sex predator, but a pedophile as well as a violent thug.

    And you wonder why trans folk are so aggressive about equal rights?

  151. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. harm, the avoidance of which is a key tenant of administrative law. IMHO, the Scottish government would be negligent in meeting the needs of its’ duty of care to Scotland’s public, if self-ID is not abandoned out-right. What on earth are the civil service playing at, proceeding on the basis that “sex” is undefined in law?

    The Policy/Operational Distinction:
    What Would an Administrative Lawyer Do?

    * This is a second extract from a forthcoming essay of mine on the policy/operational distinction in Canadian tort law, “The Policy/Operational Distinction – A View from Administrative Law“. Download a draft here. See my first extract, a post on the Imperial Tobacco case, here *

    An administrative lawyer is comfortable in recommending that the policy/operational distinction should be abolished. Yet the idea that it would be unfair in some instances to impose liability for difficult decisions taken in difficult decision-making contexts is one to which someone mindful of contemporary administrative-law jurisprudence would nonetheless be sympathetic.

    Administrative law’s rejection of absolutism gives rise to two possibilities: one, that the policy/operational distinction could be subsumed into the other stages of the duty of care analysis; two, that it could be taken into account in assessing whether the government agency discharged its standard of care.

    Duty of Care: a Holistic Approach

    If courts took an administrative law approach to state liability, the claims of the policy/operational distinction to categorically exclude some decision-making from liability would not be given absolute effect. Rather, the “policy considerations” they embody would be treated as one factor in the analysis, weighing against the imposition of a duty of care. They would have a relative value, not an absolute value. If other considerations weighed strongly in favour of liability, a duty of care would be imposed.[1]

    For example, in Imperial Tobacco, the potential ‘chilling’ effect on government officials who wish to explore harm-reduction strategies does not seem to outweigh the repeated exhortations to the tobacco industry to travel down the soft-tar cigarette path.

    But policy considerations might sometimes be weightier. Brown is an example of a case in which a court might legitimately be concerned that the imposition of liability in respect of a negotiated work schedule would pose difficulties for future relationships between public authorities and unions. Here, the prospect of an undesirable ‘chilling’ effect seems plausible.

    Standard of Care

    Administrative law presents a second possibility: that the “policy considerations” underpinning the policy/operational distinction could be addressed at the second stage of the negligence analysis, in determining whether the government agency met the required standard of care.[2] I do not suggest that establishing that the decision in question was unlawful, unreasonable or procedurally unfair should be made a condition precedent to a finding of liability; this is a matter for administrative law rather than the law of tort.[3] Rather, I suggest that awareness of administrative law concepts may assist courts in determining whether a public authority has met its standard of care.

    The concept of the “range” of reasonable outcomes can expand or contract by reference to economic, social and political considerations. As Stratas J.A. has explained:

    In some cases, Parliament has given a decision-maker a broad discretion or a policy mandate – all things being equal, this broadens the range of options the decision-maker legitimately has. In other cases, Parliament may have constrained the decision-maker’s discretion by specifying a recipe of factors to be considered – all things being equal, this narrows the range of options the decision-maker legitimately has. In still other cases, the nature of the matter and the importance of the matter for affected individuals may more centrally implicate the courts’ duty to vindicate the rule of law, narrowing the range of options available to the decision-maker.[4]

    One might add Binnie J.’s suggestion that the “highest standard of deference” is presumptively appropriate when reviewing exercises of discretion by high-level executive officers. In Mount Sinai Hospital Centre v Québec (Minister of Health and Social Services),[5] the minister’s remit to regulate in the public interest favoured

    …a high degree of deference, as does the expertise of the minister and his advisors, not to mention the position of the minister in the upper echelon of decision makers under statutory and prerogative powers. The exercise of the power turns on the minister’s appreciation of the public interest, which is a function of public policy in its fullest sense.[6]

    A decision-making process must also bear the hallmarks of justification, transparency and intelligibility, but these too depend on context. For example, in the case of a municipal taxation by-law, adopted after public debate rather than an adjudicative hearing, the appropriate question for the court to ask was whether the by-law was one that a reasonable municipal authority could adopt.

    Deferential review, in the form of a reasonableness analysis that is context-dependent, allows the intensity of judicial review to be reduced in appropriate cases. To borrow from an English commentator: “[i]t is the variable standard of deference which allows the courts to afford a degree of respect to the decisions of elected bodies and which has come to mean that while action taken at what might have been called the fringes of justiciability may be reviewable per se, it may not necessarily be subject to intensive review in practice”.[7]

    As McLachlin C.J. put it in Hill, recognizing a tort of negligent police investigation, “[a] flexible standard of care appropriate to the circumstances” can be imposed instead of excluding tort liability altogether on the basis of policy considerations.[8] No floodgates would be burst open by such an approach.[9]

  152. manandboy says:

    I take it baseball bats are not transphobic – but they are very intimidating and potentially a lethal weapon. But, who knows these days.

  153. Mike cassidy says:

    Just a thought.

    Will this be the first and last time a 100 per cent female squad represent Scotland at the Women’s World Cup Finals?

  154. Dan says:

    Illy says: at 8:34 pm

    Ahh, the comments here make me feel so loved.

    Everyone is not only calling me a rapist and sex predator, but a pedophile as well as a violent thug.

    And you wonder why trans folk are so aggressive about equal rights?

    Your reading comprehension needs some work if that is the conclusion you come to.

  155. Capella says:

    The Scottish government conducted a consultation on changing the GRA last year. It turns out that the civil servants administering the process changed the wording of the documents to remove definitions of sex and gender, eliding the meaning of both.

    This was done after they were lobbied by the Equality Network group.

    Re changing rooms. There have been pools on Hampstead Heath since 1920s. There is a men’s pool, a mixed pool and a women’s pool. After a consultation conducted by Edward Lord, the women’s pool is now open to trans women who SelfID.

    Edward Lord is a man who SelfIDs as non-binary. He is a freemason as a man because the freemasons exclude women. His consultation received 40,000 replies. However, 20,000 were disallowed because they didn’t accept the terminology. Hence the majority for allowing male bodied trans women into the women’s pool and changing rooms.

    It’s obvious that we have to take the results of consultations with a massive pinch of salt.

  156. Morag says:

    Mmm, yes. Geeo seems to be quite a long way behind on the news about Caster Semenya. She has an XY genotype, that is the male genotype. The only way an XY individual can be female is if the SRY gene on the Y chromosome is absent or non-functional (Swyer syndrome), or if the individual has complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS). Caster Semenya has an SRY gene. She has testicles (undescended) and it’s likely she could actually father a child (although not carry one). She also, quite obviously, has bioavailable testosterone.

    The reason she was believed to be a girl when she was born is that her external genitalia looked female, or at least looked more female than male – it’s likely she actually has ambiguous genitalia, but that the standard of neonatal care available to poor black South African families when she was born was not capable of spotting this. The reason for this abnormality is that she has depressed sensitivity to male sex hormones – androgens – a condition known as partial androgen insensitivity syndrome or PAIS. This is an intersex condition. Properly diagnosed in infancy, such children are brought up as boys under best practice guidelines.

    See the case of Erik Schinegger, who was born in Austria with the same condition and brought up as Erika. He was the women’s downhill skiing champion when he was 18, but was diagnosed as XY PAIS three years later in 1969 when sex testing was first introduced at the Olympics. He opted for surgery to exteriorise his internal male organs, married, and became a father.

    Different times, different rules. Exactly the same situation has arisen with Caster Semenya but the rules now say she can continue to compete in women’s events if she lowers her testosterone a bit. Maybe this is the kindest thing from her point of view but I’m not sure it’s so kind to the actual 46XX women who are being beaten out of the park by her and a couple of other athletes with the same condition. The fact is that 46XY with bioavailable androgens is a male genotype. Caster Semenya is socially and legally a woman but she has a biologically male body. She’s not a gifted woman, she’s a disadvantaged man, biologically speaking.

    Nowadays children like Erik born in developed countries are being diagnosed early and brought up as boys. Nevertheless these children are acquiring hard currency value in sports competitions if they’ve been registered as girls at birth, so one wonders whether countries which are very eager for sporting success (like South Africa, which has apparently appointed a director of sports specifically to find promising intersex girls) will be too keen on adopting best practice any time soon.

    This is just for clarification. It has absolutely nothing to do with the transgender debate, which is about genetically and phenotypically normal individuals wanting to be the sex they most definitely aren’t.

    I suppose it’s relevant to some extent in that it’s likely the scouts looking for promising intersex girls are wasting their time. With women’s events being opened to trans-identifying biological males, they’ll probably get better results persuading some of the not-quite-good-enough male athletes to identify as trans.

  157. CameronB Brodie says:

    “I’m open to queerness” means I live and let live, or I take a “whatever floats your boat” stance. However, allowing self-ID would be seriously bad law. The more I think about the conduct of the civil service, the more I’m certain they need to answer serious questions


  158. Dr Jim says:

    In the new shiny Boris Johnson or Esther McVey reich the question of rights won’t be what’s on most folks minds because those people will remove whatever they don’t like and replace it with what they do like, and it’s practically guaranteed if it’s not mainstream they won’t like it and that’ll be that, so this particular current Genie will be stuffed back in the bottle whether it likes it or not to the sound of applauding far right wingers the length and breadth of good old liberal Britannia

    When England voted for Brexit and gave free reign to Mr Farage, that also opened the door to the Trumpism extremists who are more religious about their God given rights to being bigger bullies than anybody else in the name of their God (birthright and there’ll always be an American England with beer darts and apple pie) all bets on any form of rights will be off

  159. SilverDarling says:

    @geeo 7.28

    Most people agree Caster Semenya’s treatment by the IAAF is shabby but that is not what the thread was about. The person who compiled the list is intersex and has like others with DSD has had their particular condition hijacked by TRAs in the same way as Caster Semenya.

    Whatever condition Caster Semenya has, she has always been comfortable in her body ie her body matches her internal identity.

    This is not the same as those who want to self identify as another gender (mostly feminine) but present their body and their aggressive male behaviour unchanged to females who have to accept them often in situations where (again mostly) females would feel threatened or uncomfortable.

  160. Morag says:

    There was a bit of cross-posting there. Capella, excellent post, these consultations are being blatantly manipulated on both sides of the border.

  161. Col.Blimp IV says:


    You forgot “Loony”!

    In real life Nationalists (well Scottish ones anyway) are fairly inclusive there have always been squllions of gays in the SNP, Dykes, Chinks, Pakies, Half-castes, Coons, English, miscellaneous other foreigners, Jews, Orangemen, Catholics etc. and many, many nutcases.

    A sort of Broad Church where failure to make the new guy feel welcome was considered to be something of a sin.

    There was even a Tranny who became a Parliamentary Candidate, under his/her new Ladyname.

    It is an Identity thing…If you self-identify as “Politically Scottish”, you are one of us.

    This is of course the internet, where you can type things to or about people you wouldn’t dream of saying out loud.

  162. Joe says:

    Dr Jim

    I hate to tell you but for all the right wing might be blamed for – this issue with essentially identity politics isnt one of them.

    This is a monster created by and nurtured by the left. Seriously.

  163. Effijy says:

    I looked at Margaret Ferrier’s wonderful tweet .
    I was sickened by the Unionist Knuckle Draggers
    Attitude at so many wonderful SNP achievements.

    With Westminster taking the UK into £2 Trillion of
    Debt and a lion’s share plus being spent on London
    Scotland his to take an 8.5% share of the total debt.

    The Unionists suggest we will be running up debt
    Providing so many support services and the beauty
    That they think Westminster just gives us the Barnett
    Formula and we don’t put in any money.

    Half Whitts abound dressed in Butchers Aprons

  164. geeo says:


    I know that, im not sure how much clearer i can put it why i brought up Semenya !!

    People are (rightly) complaining about trans activists behaviour which disrespects womens rights, in regards to ‘safe’ spaces for women.

    So far so good ?

    My point is that people, who are NOT trans activist nutjobs, who are actively discriminating against a FEMALE athlete, just trying to get by in HER ‘safe space’ ie: the running track.

    Semenya has a medically recognised condition (hyperandrogenism) which means she has a high testosterone level.

    Some MEN have very LOW testosterone levels, yet nobody accuses them of being women and suggests they compete with Female athletes or use the ladies toilets !

    All discrimination is bad, clearly, and ALL areas of society indulge in it.

    I just happen to find it sad that a young, vulnerable athlete should be treated the way she has been.

    Especially from other women, some of whom may be against the type of trans activism under discussion on here.

    A wee bit solidarity goes a long way.

    That list of 100 things on here is ludicrously wrong on so many levels of ‘normal’ thinking, nobody is arguing that.

    If Semenya wins her case, she wins it for WOMEN like her.

    If she loses, Women’s rights (in sport) to be women on their own terms, are the losers.

    And if that happens, who will defend women in sport then ?

  165. CameronB Brodie says:

    True, the discursive turn is from the left, but it has been pirated by far-right male interests. Undermining the social position of biological women is part and parcel of the neo-liberalisation and shrinking of the state, and the ongoing erosion of human rights.

    Collusion of fundamentalism and neoliberalism:
    Its impact on women and minority rights

  166. @HandandShrimp,

    I do not identify as `Scott`,

    although i was born `Scott` i have chosen to be identified as `Scot`,

    my life my choice 🙂

  167. geeo says:


    Those are big claims when the IAAF test results have NEVER been published and AFTER testing, allowed Semenya to compete freely as a female athlete.

    The ONLY reason that Semenya is being punished today, is related to her testosterone levels.

    Hence the IAAF trying to circumvent an earlier CAS ruling against the type of testing used to discriminate against Semenya in the first place, despite an expert assertion that such a condition DOES NOT give an advantage of any sort re: performance.

    Semenya is being used as a pawn in a battle between the IAAF and the CAS.

    CAS are FINAL arbritrators in disputes in Sport.

    IAAF has always fought this status as they believe THEY should be re: athletics.

    If Morag has had access to Senenya’s medical files, that would be interesting to know how ?

    Please do not say the ‘leak’ of the IAAF ‘sex test’…as that is heresay and the actions of the IAAF allowing unfettered access to female competition with no caveats, suggests the only thing they found was the hormonal imbalance (the high testosterone).

    Otherwise, they would have banned her from competition as she was not fulfilling the criteria to compete as a woman, right, morag ?

    I have followed this case for years, i am well versed in it.

  168. Confused says:

    holyrood committee footage

    the average twitter user

    the wokest take

    banned 70s humour, discovered on illegal alt-right chatserver

    humour and ridicule are your weapons – even taking nutcases seriously empowers them in a sense.

    someone posted a link about a week ago – it was an article in national review by the worlds foremost tranny expert(?) – it was, quite a lot of stuff I have said in the past, bulked up with technical jargon and without the gratuitously offensive caricature … but a good summary would be : YES, the reality is just what you think it is but its obscured by activists talking bollocks … for example, there are no PERVERTS anymore … no, instead one has “paraphilias”; also notable is how the very terminology has been fucked around with – an attack on language is an attack on your mind

  169. Dr Jim says:


    Oh I know who created it, it’s who will end it I was talking about

  170. SilverDarling says:

    @geeo 9.35 pm

    Yes, but Caster Semenya is intersex, not female. Her social and cultural upbringing has perhaps meant her condition was not identified until the eyes of the world were on her. She was accepted as female and grew up as female because presumably at birth she looked female. Only when puberty kicked in did her testosterone levels increase from her cryptic testes but her male body did not respond fully.

    I am reluctant to call her a man because of that but she is not just a woman with the genetic gift of more testosterone. If she had been identified earlier as Morag said the choice to allow her body to develop its male potential may have been available.

    Her condition has benefited her athletic ability from more than just a bath of testosterone. Her pelvis will be different, her bone density will be different and she has muscle mass and muscle memory more in keeping with her genotype XY. Her cardiac capacity and lung capacity will be enhanced as well.

    Upthread, Morag explains her condition which is well documented now.

    I accept though she has become a cause celebre for TRAs and on a human level discussion about her genitalia and reproductive system is horrible.
    However, that is what this toxic debate has become for us as females because if having a male reproductive system and XY chromosomes means you are still female, like Caster Semenya, how do natal females claim any identity at all?

  171. Liam says:

    What Ian Brotherhood says – and I know trans people. It’s not a subject that comes up in everyday conversation. So much other stuff to talk about.

  172. geeo says:


    Hold on, you are claiming facts out or air.

    There is NO medical evidence backing up your claims.

    Please by all means link to it.

    Not a RUMOUR or STORY about it, but the hard evidence.

    It must be there if YOU know about it, surely.

    Semenya is NOT and never has been, a darling of TRA’s, nor has she ever sought to be.

    She is a WOMAN who simply wants to get on with being one.

    Why do you have an issue with that ?

  173. SilverDarling says:

    @geeo 9.54

    I see you have contested Morag’s claims so I guess there is not much point in answering my post as I am of the same opinion. However, I appreciate your compassion for Caster Semenya, I just don’t agree that the evidence for her intersex state is disputed.

    I understand that no formal statement has been made from the IAAF since when it was done for another athlete many years before, they attempted suicide. They have left it up to Caster Semenya to confirm what is generally accepted. By saying it is purely a high level of circulating androgens they have increased speculation rather than quashed it by saying it is idiopathic.

  174. geeo says:

    Compassion ??

    No Silverdarling, i an sticking up for her human rights as a woman.

    And nice to see you agree there is no evidence to back up your claims.


  175. Robert Peffers says:

    @Millsy says: 30 May, 2019 at 5:40 pm:

    ” … RIGHT YOU LOT – YES , YOU ! I am reporting ALL of YOU for breaching the Transgender code of conduct for even THINKING about this issue .

    Oh! Come on, Millsy, You know as well as I do the best way to get Scots to do something is to tell them they can’t.

  176. george wood says:

    The IAAF made such a hash of their case to CAS that they almost lost it.

    They only won because CAS agreed that the IAAF had to act protect women’s athletics and so they overlooked the shortcomings of the IAAF’s efforts.

  177. Robert Peffers says:

    @Essexexile says: 30 May, 2019 at 5:47 pm:

    ” … the hardcore feminists who have their hooks well and truly into the SNP can push their agenda knowing they have NS full attention with indy out of the way.”

    Well all that comment proves is that you do not grasp exactly what this new bill for referendums, and that is any and all referendums, is all about.

    It is, perhaps, one of the cleverest legal moves I can ever recall ant Scottish Government coming up with. I’ll tell you this, though, there have been, “Emergency Bills”, pushed through Holyrood in very short order and this bill is not just about Indyref2 it will apply to any referendum and none will require Westminster to sign a section 30, AGREEMENT”. BTW; A section 30 agreement is just that, an agreement and not a permission.

  178. geeo says:

    @george wood, even in their latest ruling, CAS admitted they are discriminating against Semenya but ruled to allow the IAAF to do exactly that, despite the fact it does not make her faster, her human rights have been violated, and she risks serious medical risks if she is medicated to reduce
    testosterone levels (higher risk of pulmonary embolism fkr example).

    Here is a good report on it by an expert in the field.

  179. Morgatron says:

    Corrupt Gummy Swinson , Brian May with Swiss Tony (Barry G) and Smeggle looking for the gold ring – his precious all on QT. I think I’m tripping on a Thursday night.

  180. Morgatron says:

    Kraftwerk done my favourite Trans song.

  181. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Methinks they have realised Ruthie is a busted flush in Scotland and we are going to get Rory Stewart and lots of Libdemery.

  182. Robert Peffers says:

    @Corrado Mella says: 30 May, 2019 at 6:50 pm:

    ” … They’re stupid and insufferable, they don’t make sense, speak in memes, as every other teenager does.”

    Yep! I think that is the most correct comment today, Corrado Mella.

    In my younger days the accepted belief was that it was perfectly normal for younger members of the human race to go through a stage of being attracted to people of the same sex but that most would, “grow out of it”.

    The concept was that this attraction took the form of more or less hero worship of, perhaps a sports personality, film star, ballerina or recording artist. Et Al.

    Yet most of these teens, including me, grew up, married the opposite sex and raised, (sometimes large), families, It was before the days of, “The Pill”.

  183. Brian says:

    I’ve been very reluctant to get involved whenever I see this particular ‘hot topic’ raised as your never sure to the reaction of your input. I’m never really sure when is the right time to respond either, do I respond etc.

    Every time I see this issue being discussed I keep getting this thought.

    A crime is committed and the Police swab for forensic evidence left at the scene. Traces of DNA are analysed and are shown to be male.

    Where do the Police concentrate their search in order to find that male person of interest?

    Are they looking for your average man on the street or the man self identifying and living as a woman?

  184. HandandShrimp says:


    Apologies for being t total

    Or something…bloody minefield

  185. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ian Brotherhood says: 30 May, 2019 at 7:20 pm:

    … have thrown their lot in with a vociferous narcissistic zealots. And if they dare break that silence – as Rev has, repeatedly – they are instantly castigated, forever stamped as ‘bigots’.”

    Dear God, Ian, for a brief moment there I thought you said they had been, “castrated forever”.

    Phew! You had me worried there for a moment, what with that picture up there with all those great big axes.

  186. Katie says:

    What I can never understand is that while we pussyfoot around what is politically correct to that extreme lever, its still ok for MSM to be ‘racist’ against Svottish people. See link here

    Also note that British =English.

    We need out now!

  187. george wood says:


    CAS, to me, seem to be on the IAAF’s side and so as long as the IAAF doesn’t make an arse of it again, CAS will back them.

  188. Katie says:

    Sorry about typos last post. Its been a long day. 🙂

  189. Robert Peffers says:

    @ronnie anderson says: 30 May, 2019 at 7:20 pm:

    ” … Aye! Ronnie. see my reply to the post just before yours.

  190. SilverDarling says:


    The ruling by the IAAF:

    “The DSD covered by the Regulations is limited to athletes with “46 XY DSD” – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes. Accordingly, individuals with XX chromosomes are not subject to any restrictions or eligibility conditions under the DSD Regulations.”

    As you can see by making those rulings they have excluded XX DSD athletes with high circulating testosterone but applied the ruling to individuals with 46XY DSD

    If it were purely the high levels of testosterone CS would not be affected. It is the XY chromosomes that make the difference. Why would CS appeal it if it did not apply to her? It could not be clearer. They handled it badly because they made it so obvious who it was aimed at.

  191. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    `Methinks they have realised Ruthie is a busted flush in Scotland`,

    BBC/MSM have squeezed the last drop of `SNP bad` out of Colonel Ruthie,she will be unceremoniously dumped,

    bring on project `Swinson` the next turd to be polished by BBC/MSM,

    same SNPbad sh@t just a different face.

  192. Dan says:

    Apparently Prince Harry gave a speech earlier today to open the Ashes (cricket) that stated something along the lines of how wonderful the diversity of the UK was and that it would be like home games for all the foreign teams.
    I guess whomever wrote the speech must have forgot about the recent Windrush scandal…

  193. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s one for Conservatives out there, who might believe they are innocent of involvement in creating the current sexual politics.

    Spaces of power: feminism, neoliberalism and gendered labor


    This paper offers an intervention into current debates about the demise of feminist politics in neoliberal times. It draws on an empirical study of women working the spaces of power over the last 50 years to trace different mappings of the ‘landscapes of antagonism’ in which feminism and neoliberalism are entangled. The paper challenges singular conceptions of both feminism and neoliberalism, and seeks to offer a political-cultural analysis that does not erase the possibility of politics.

    Keywords: neoliberalism; feminism; social policy; modernisation; landscapes of

  194. george wood says:

    Some people wondering why this is important.

    It is important because it is a big vote loser. If the SNP and Greens bring this in, it risks an pro Indy Holyrood and a pro Independence vote.

    Allowing men to use women’s changing rooms, toilets and places like rape shelters and female prisons will not go down well with female voters. Men, like a few on here who don’t see the problem, probably won’t give a toss because it’s only woman’s rights.

    I don’t want to live in a country that trashes women’s rights to give more to men.

    I don’t want to live in a country that allows men to dictate to woman what it is to be woman.

    I don’t want to live in a country the tells lesbians that they have to consider men as sexual partners or they are being transphobic.

  195. Still Positive says:

    Scotland is taking the piss out of Javid. Long may it continue.

  196. Robert Peffers says:

    @ Illy says:30 May, 2019 at 8:34 pm:

    ” … And you wonder why trans folk are so aggressive about equal rights?”

    No I don’t, Illy, Matter of fact I never give it a thought. I have no phobias about anyone and my attitude has always been that whatever anyone is it is their business and not mine – that is unless they try to shove their business up my nose, (so to speak), then it becomes a case of telling them I do not need to know.

    I cannot recall ever seeing a straight people’s pride march anywhere. Why would that be?

    Now don’t get me wrong – I have always defended people’s right to be what they want to be and that extends way back to when they hauled homosexual men off to prison. I knew several homosexual people and was never bothered or treated them other than as just ordinary human beings.

  197. Robert Peffers says:

    @geeo says: 30 May, 2019 at 9:35 pm:

    ” … I know that, im not sure how much clearer i can put it why i brought up Semenya !!”

    Geeo, it doesn’t matter how clear you think you are you just happen to be wrong on this occasion.

    Morag is actually an expert on this subject and her post has to be accepted as being correct.

    I actually knew a person with that same condition way back when I and she, (the person had also been stated on her birth certificate as female), were teenagers

    Being the person I am I always had at least one someone who had a trouble mind who confided in me. The person was in fact a very nice and gentle person but could never come to terms with the problem and eventually took their own life.

    Back then there was really no way to decide and correct the problem. In any case as best as could be decided then the medics could not tell one way or the other and if they could had no way of correcting it. The condition is not new.

  198. Jock McDonnell says:

    Thing about Swinson is, if the LibDums want to present a ‘credible’ (no chuckling) candidate for PM then they really need to have an English seat. The Great Helmsman was similarly undermined.

  199. Dan says:

    It’s late and this is a bit off topic: Here are a couple of short clips of alternative sports that highlight the high level of long term dedication and tenacity certain young people make the personal choice to put in to being successful at what they do.
    Nobody can just be great at this sort of stuff off the bat, they have to be committed and dedicated to achieving and excelling in their goals.
    You cannot learn this stuff in 10 mins sitting on yer arse swiping away on a laptop or smartphone. This is only possible with good old fashioned hard graft, with the inevitable aches and pains one has to endure with trial and error till it all clicks and you get the satisfaction of nailing a trick.
    Might not be everyone’s bag but for me I think it’s great to see these young folk do this sort of stuff as it encompasses the clarity of thought, determination, and belief in oneself that is needed to succeed in an activity, which I feel mirrors life in some respects.

    A 3min vid of Matthias Dandois performing his Flatland BMX tricks.

    A 2min vid of Sarah Lezito showing her tenacity and practice she puts in to becoming good at Stuntbike riding. (Of course there are vids of slickly performed routines but this shows the work in progress efforts)

  200. geeo says:


    Yet there has never been actual evidence that Semenya is as Morag and co says she is.

    Why is this difficult ?

    I actually give up, think what you like.

  201. geeo says:


    The IAAF are more corrupt than the drug cheat athletes.

    But hey, you believe whatever you like.

    If Semenya had the “46 XY DSD” she could already be barred from competing prior to the latest CAS ruling by the IAAF.

    But fuck it, be right, past caring.

  202. Liam says:

    Robert Peffers says:

    Yet most of these teens, including me, grew up, married the opposite sex and raised, (sometimes large), families…

    Yep. They did. But, just because they did – because they were expected to and that is what society demanded of them – didn’t mean they were happy.

  203. george wood says:

    @Gary 1.00am

    Well if standing up for woman’s rights is extreme then I’m proud to be extreme.

    If standing against misogeny and homophobia is extreme then I’m proud to be extreme.

    You are on the wrong side on this one, as usual the Rev is on the right side.

  204. CameronB Brodie says:

    re, “political correctness gone mad”.

    Has political correctness gone too far?

    The idea of PC “gone mad” is a fig-leaf for naked prejudice, says Julia Symons

    This essay is the winner of The Economist’s Open Future essay competition in the category of Open Society, responding to the question: “Has political correctness gone too far?” The winner is Julia Symons, 25 years old, from Australia.

    Regardless of how it is labelled, its underlying idea is the same: that measures to increase “tolerance” threaten the liberal, Enlightenment values that have forged the West. Self-styled opponents of political correctness and proponents of free speech may find themselves (mis)quoting Voltaire: “I disapprove what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

    When framed like this, it seems utterly reasonable to think that political correctness has the potential to be a menace. Moreover, some aspects of tolerance culture, particularly the actions of students—who frequently draw the ire of such culture warriors—are, in many cases, cloying and precious.

    Britain’s National Union of Students, and campus politics generally, is rife with such examples: at one conference, it urged its delegates to use the “jazz hands” motion to express their appreciation, lest the noises made by clapping “trigger” other delegates. Meanwhile Facebook, in its own efforts at tolerance, has made a list of 71 genders from which its users may choose to identify, including genderqueer neutrois and bi-gender. This is farcical and arguably trivialises the very real struggles that transgender individuals face.

    However, some easily-dismissed examples aside, the notion that political correctness has gone too far is absurd. That a man who boasts gleefully about grabbing women by their genitals, mocks disabled reporters and stereotypes Muslims as “terrorists” and Mexicans as “rapists” was able to become the leader of the free world should disabuse anyone of that notion. Indeed those who invoke “political correctness” often use it for more cynical means. It is a smoke screen for regressivism….

  205. Liz g says:

    IIIy @ 8.34
    Since You mention it….
    No we don’t wonder why Trans People are “ aggressive” about their rights.
    Long experience has taught us that aggression will be used when men don’t get their way, that’s the whole fucking point.
    Trans Women don’t seem to have left aggression behind them with their old identity, and you just pretty much said so!
    Once again I’ll ask you ( now you’ve decided that your not banned from Wings) …
    Don’t you think getting your rights should not be done at the expense of others and the doing of it is the responsibility Trans community to explore?
    Park the “aggression “ and try convincing Women of the case would be a start!

    Try looking at it from a different point of view
    It’s been claimed that menstrual cramp can be for some women as painful as a heart attack, and very debilitating, so can you see a case for those Women to use the disabled bays when parking?
    Should they get a Blue Badge?
    Should they have to demonstrate they are one of the percentage of women who suffer like this, or should the Badge be available for the asking?
    This is not the case for all Women but it is for a significant percentage of them. I’d wager, a larger percentage of the population than the Trans community, so it could be argued.
    Or do you think that that would seriously undermine and disadvantage our disabled citizens, another protected minority ?

  206. Petra says:


    A must read from WGD with embedded article by Andrew Tickell.

  207. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    It is this kind of self-indulgent narcissistic navel-gazing that destroys any meaningful connect between progressivism and ordinary people, and brings the very purpose of a politics of meaningful change into serious disrepute. These intolerant idealogues hollowed-out the Labour Party so now they have jumped host to the Greens and the SNP to wreak the same havoc on them.

    As someone upthread rightly pointed out, it’s the same coterie of self-entitled splitterists who cause all these unnecessary diversions. This absurd misuse of “woke” simply oozes exceptionalism: the soi-disant “enlightened”.

    Best to quietly sideline these people and stick to the basic principle that everyone deserves respect but meanings can only be based on hard fact, not fantasy. The latter way lies madness, Huxley’s “Brave New World”.

    But seriously, is there anyone in the leadership of either pro-indy party who is really pushing for this? Or is it rather a miniscule minority of foghorns importing their extreme notions from elsewhere?

  208. twathater says:

    Liz G , Shiregirl , George Wood and others I am on the womens side , as I posted on a previous thread the threats and abuse some of the SNP females have recd on twatter is abysmal , and the despicable language that these defenders and promoters of this cause use is totally confrontational

    I have stated quite openly that I feel that the SNP should be parking this distraction and concentrate on independence , my wife and daughter are rather annoyed at the direction of travel this appears to be going , and are equally concerned that the SNP hierarchy are listening to and being manipulated by vociferous and forceful individuals and organisations

  209. Breeks says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    30 May, 2019 at 11:11 pm
    Methinks they have realised Ruthie is a busted flush in Scotland and we are going to get Rory Stewart and lots of Libdemery.

    The latest in a long line of busted flushes…

    There’s something creepy about Rory, and kinda pathetic, but his greatest and most dangerous achievement in life is to tell a bare faced monumental lie and pass a polygraph test while he’s doing it.

    There’s a bohemian element to the way he thinks, which kinda gives you hope, but once it gets your attention, you realise it’s not really spontaneous originality , but more like the very dull and formulaic character you’d expect to see playing Ygor the oddball manservant in virtually all Hammer House of Horror Films from the 70’s.

    He’s like the Eton love child of Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen and Gollum.

  210. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Petra @ 02:46,

    A most welcome change of topic, IMO!

    The only thing I’m aware of that Paul seems to miss is that the Bill also includes the provision that any previous referendum with a particular question already agreed with the Electoral Commission in effect creates a precedent that enables the same format to be reused without further discussion or agreement. This short-circuits any possible delaying tactic on that score and insulates that aspect of IR2 from any possible S.30 interference. (As indeed also does the provision for 16-17 and EU voting rights.)

  211. Morag says:

    Geeo, everything I and SilverDarling said about Caster Semenya is in the latest CAS ruling, including about her being intersex. “DSD” is the currently accepted terminology for intersex, disorders (or differences) of sexual development. And 46XY is the male genotype, which she has.

    What Caster Semenya is, is not a mystery. She started as a male foetus but because of decreased sensitivity to testosterone her genitalia were underdeveloped and mostly inside her body. Because of this she was believed to be a girl and was brought up as a girl. She identifies as a woman and nobody is allowed to take that basic human right from her.

    Nevertheless she has underdeveloped male genitalia including testicles. She went through male puberty. She has a broken (masculine) voice). With the proper treatment, if she wanted to, she quite probably could becime a father like Erik Schinneger did.

    The question is, should she be allowed to compete in women’s athletics events? That is a matter which is entirely for the appropriate authorities to decide. In earlier decades the answer would have been an unequivocal no, and in my opinion that is the only fair answer from the point of view of the 46XX women she’s competing against. However past enforcement of this rule has caused serious distress and indeed harm to other athletes and the authorities have backtracked and are now allowing anyone who was believed to be female at birth and was brought up as female to compete. That’s up to them, not us, but it doesn’t change Caster Semenya’s diagnosis.

    In my opinion they made a mistake when they decided to allow males brought up as females to continue to compete. It’s not fair to actual females, and it’s an open invitation to unscrupulous countries to game the system by deliberately bringing up slightly ambiguous boys as girls in the hope they’ll win medals.

    Sure, it’s hard for the people who’ve been genuinely wrongly diagnosed at birth, but to a large extent that’s been because of the cackhanded way they handled the testing in the past. Nobody’s biology changes. Make it known that only athletes who have either no functional SRY gene, or of they do have such a gene also have CAIS, will be allowed to compete in women’s events. Offer every promising girl the chance to be tested as a junior, to make sure any distresing surprises happen before anyone hits the big time. And stick to it.

    But they won’t. They’ve backtracked too much already, and countries are already combing the backstreets for possible intersex “girls” in the hope of more medals. And anyway they’re now letting actual males in, so what does it matter any more. Women’s sports are doomed. Find something else to do, girls.

  212. Morag says:

    It’s been claimed that menstrual cramp can be for some women as painful as a heart attack, and very debilitating, so can you see a case for those Women to use the disabled bays when parking?

    I’ve never had a heart attack so I can’t tell you. But I can tell you that I wouldn’t have been driving a car at all, I’d have been sweating in a corner with my toes curling and in no position to drive a lawnmower never mind a car.

    But it only lasted for two hours every time, so there is that.

  213. Capella says:

    From the Week in the War on Women thread, a link from Cherry to an article on the billionaires funding this:

    Exceedingly rich, white men (and women) who invest in biomedical companies are funding myriad transgender organizations whose agenda will make them gobs of money…

    As an environmental activist who was deplatformed from a speaking venue by transactivists, in 2013 I developed curiosity about the power of this group to force this development. A year later, when Time magazine announced a transgender tipping point on its cover, I had already begun to examine the money behind the transgender project.

    I have watched as all-women’s safe spaces, universities, and sports opened their doors to any man who chose to identify as a woman. Whereas men who identify as transwomen are at the forefront of this project, women who identify as transmen seem silent and invisible. I was astonished that such a huge cultural change as the opening of sex-protected spaces was happening at such a meteoric pace and without consideration for women and girls’ safety, deliberation, or public debate.

    Concurrent with these rapid changes, I witnessed an overhaul in the English language with new pronouns and a near-tyrannical assault on those who did not use them. Laws mandating new speech were passed. Laws overriding biological sex with the amorphous concept of gender identity are being instituted now. People who speak openly about these changes can find themselves, their families, and their livelihoods threatened.

  214. BuggerLePanda says:

    For Morgatronto

    prove someone read your post and got it

    Trans Europe Express

  215. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Capella if true, that’s a brilliant strategy. They’ve got feminists & minority groups viciously clawing at each other, all the radicals fighting among themselves. Somebody must be pissing themselves at the whole jolly wheeze.

  216. Morgatron says:

    @ BuggerLePanda.
    Thanks ?

  217. Morgatron says:

    Please excuse the question mark Panda

  218. Frank Gillougley says:

    I have always greatly admired the bravery and personal dignity of Robert Millar/Philippa York. Perhaps in my naivety, as shown in the difference between the individual and the group, I would like to believe that she would not want much to do with the whole snarling, aggressive nature of trans activists against women.

  219. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Breeks at 3.12am
    Rory Stewart worked for the security services so telling bare faced lies was an essential daily obligation. He does remind me of Stan Laurel.

  220. Jomry says:

    @Morag 3.28

    An excellent crystal clear post, both compassionate and respectful in its expression. Thank you for that.

  221. Marcia says:

    As one fundraiser comes to an end another one begins. Our James Kelly, Scot Goes Pop has started one.

  222. orri says:

    One tip to the women who haven’t already figured it out. If you need something for cramps then
    might be useful.
    For the cramp version you can pay at least twice as much as the IBS. Because the latter is one of the essential medicines as are paracetamol and ibuprofen. Caffeinated drinks are also useful as they speed the absorption. If the SNP were in charge of VAT and pricing perhaps they could address that additional cause of period poverty.

  223. Robert Peffers says:

    @Liam says: 31 May, 2019 at 1:30 am:

    ” … Yep. They did. But, just because they did – because they were expected to and that is what society demanded of them – didn’t mean they were happy.”

    Yep! And there it is, the expected retort. The thing is Liam, some folk are never happy and they go through life always looking for something, anything, to complain about. It usually has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with their sexual orientation.

    However, if it has, today no one turns a hair when a person declares they are other than heterosexual simply because it really is no one else’s business than the person and their chosen partner – and if it doesn’t work out no one is interested except the people immediately involved.

    So why the bitterness and hostility to all and sundry? If this crowd of numpties weren’t causing trouble no one except the people immediately concerned would bat an eye.

    As I pointed out I was always the go to person for the disabled, mentally troubled and downtrodden to pour out their hearts to and to offer what help I could. Even if it was only a friendly ear. Now, at least in Scotland the social climate is generally open for all – unless the person or group of persons are proving themselves hostile and aggressive.

    Put it this way, if you don’t shove your personal perceived sex or gender up people’s noses no one will know or bother what it is.

    I don’t need to know if the person serving me in a shop or whatever sees themselves as. It is none of my business unless they decide to make it my business. What is more if they do so in a threatening manner will get a hostile reaction.

    Got it now Liam? We all have our life to lead so get on with it as best you can but keep in mind the other guy/gal has their life to lead also.

  224. Nana says:

    Good response to Carlaw’s nonsense

    New Tory leadership hopefuls are being vetted by Philip Hammond the Chancellor.
    So whoever is voted for by the white elderly Tory party members, will be a brexiter, with a remainer as Chancellor?

  225. manandboy says:

    In its daily attempts to deceive Scottish voters, the BBC under Donalda MacKinnon, uses every trick in the book, leaves no stone unturned, and always gives great attention to detail. It would be a serious mistake therefore, to believe that there is any aspect, like elections and finance, of the relationship between our Imperial Masters in Westminster and the Scotland colony, in which we attract any respect whatsoever from any part or person in the Westminster Establishment.

    Yet voting figures show, quite apart from hard-core British Nationalists, that significant numbers of Scotland’s people continue to be willing to put their faith in the four Unionist parties of Labour, Tory, LibDem & Brexit Party. Hence the reason why the BBC in Scotland continues to peddle it’s propaganda. Donalda MacKinnon knows only too well that you can fool some of the people all the time, and for the continuous wellbeing of an English Establishment dependent on Scotland’s wealth, it is imperative to continue to do so.

    Only Independence can stop the influence of the BBC – by shutting it down completely and incarcerating its principle actors.

  226. Steph says:


    You said: “Wondering what this has got to do with indyref2?”
    I agree. Where’s the Scottish politics? There are bigger issues that affect this country.

  227. Nana says:

    Two lots failed to appear, I have no idea why. Tried posting in lots of 2, no show.

    Tories are monsters

    Govt has pulled a vote on a bill to force UK tax havens to publish registers of beneficial(ultimate) owners which would’ve been a huge boost in the fight against money laundering & tax avoidance

  228. Steph says:


    You said: “Wake me up when the blog gets back to independence.”
    I absolutely agree mate.

  229. Liz g says:

    Morag @ 3.39
    ye can’t leave the kids standing at the school gate so that at least one time he can’t curl up in a corner … Aye!

  230. Nana says:

    Still some missing so please Rev no hammers should you find duplicates in the dark place 🙂

  231. Capella says:

    @ Steph – what it has to do with independence is votes.

    Women represent 50% of the electorate or approx 2,ooo,ooo votes. Using best estimates of the number of transwomen in Scotland it comes to approx 500 votes.

    If the SNP inflict this change on voters they will lose a massive number of votes and probably also lose any chance of independence.

    This media are keeping a low profile on this at the moment which is why most people are unaware of it. But I believe that, as soon as the GRA is changed to allow SelfID and access to all women only spaces, the media will make sure that every voter is fully aware of it.

    If I was scheming to undermine public support for the SNP and SG this is exactly the sort of issue I would be promoting. Pretending it isn’t there won’t make it go away.

  232. Robert Louis says:

    Been thinking a lot about this.

    Their are complex arguments on both sides of the debate on Transgender ‘rights’, but the extremely aggressive bullying and actual physical violence against women who disagree by Transgender campaigners, will only end in failure. You cannot, as a minority literally bludgeon your way to acceptance. It will not work. If all you want are ‘bragging points’ on twitter, then it will.

    I totally get that superficially, allowing self ID seems a really good idea. Indeed when I first heard about it, I thought, oh well, why not etc.. Then I started to actually read what some women were saying about women only spaces, and I realised that whilst on the one hand self ID would be good for transgender folk, on the other hand it literally flings open the doors for creeps, perverts and sexual attackers, to legally invade women’s spaces. And it is important to note, that I am not for one second suggesting such categories are more prevalent within the Transgender community, but simply the fact that such people DO REALLY exist whether they be straight, male, female, gay, lesbian, transgender, whatever. So, given such types of people DO ACTUALLY exist, the necessary protections need to be in place for women.

    Importantly, I think their are valid points on BOTH sides.

    In addition, the very last thing a female rape or domestic abuse survivor needs is to be placed in a care shelter, where a burly masculine guy, fully sexually intact, with beard etc,, is also allowed access. I find it hard to fathom that transgender campaigners simply cannot or rather, will not, see that. It is about perceptions. It matters not one jot that that burly physical male self identifies as ‘female’. As the old saying goes, perception is reality. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. And so a male bodied transgender person who identifies as female is, to a rape survivor’s eyes A MAN.

    But sadly, their can be no rational discussion of these very legitimate concerns. Transgender activists would describe my last paragraph above, as ‘transphobic’, so end of discussion, “oh and here’s some vile abuse too, TERF”.

    And that really is the root of the problem, one side, the transgender side seems unwilling or unable to hold a rational discussion on these issues, and point blank refuses to even consider the concerns that women have – and they are REAL concerns. They are not borne of hatred of transgender folk. Most folk nowadays don’t really care if somebody is transgender.

    I have watched as people who should be natural allies of transgender folk have been driven away by the transgender movements venomous hatred and spiteful, aggressive behaviour. They have attacked lesbians, with the most vile, vile, hateful comments, that are homophobic in the extreme. For that they need to apologise. And that is why I and many other gay people no longer support organisations such as stonewall (which has really lost its way), and the Scottish equality network.

    I am really sorry, but transgender campaigners really should sniff the coffee and wake up to the fact that their aggressive no discussion, shut down meetings, lose people their jobs, approach will backfire and backfire big.

    The gay rights movement succeeded by engaging in discussion, presenting fact to dispel lies (such as you can’t catch being gay – which some folk used to believe), not by beating up middle aged ladies who disagreed. Shutting down discussion will achieve nothing in the long run. Perhaps the transgender campaigners could do well to read up on how gay rights were really won (not the transcult distortions). If they seriously want to gain transgender rights, then a good starting point would be this book (and I am being serious);

  233. Abulhaq says:

    The Tory contender Dominic Rennie Raab came out with stuff about how open and welcoming England/Uk was to immigrants, particularly the persecuted members of his family. He also implied that the antisemitism issue in the Labour party paralleled that of the Nazis and the Shoah.
    Ralph Miliband had this to say:
    “The Englishman is a rabid nationalist. They are perhaps the most nationalist people in the world … When you hear the English talk of this war you sometimes almost want them to lose it to show them how things are. They have the greatest contempt for the continent in general and for the French in particular. They didn’t like the French before the defeat … Since the defeat, they have the greatest contempt for the French Army … England first. This slogan is taken for granted by the English people as a whole. To lose their empire would be the worst possible humiliation”.
    REALITY CHECK Mr Raab…what it says on the tin may not be the actual contents.
    Btw..what is it about English sports fans abroad that is so unsettling…invading marauders perhaps?

  234. THomas says:

    I dare say there is a lot of transgender and trans people who have genuine grievances and should be heard and understood, and a lot of women who have grievances in this matter. But I think a lot of people are using this whole gender thing as a tool and a way of shutting some people up and controlling the views of others. Don’t force your views on others in a violent manner discus and get your grievances and across to others in a civil and understanding way.

  235. Frank Gillougley says:

    As an aside, but still on topic, here is a small point probably worth making that shows that part of the whole problem is intrinsic in both written and spoken language that uses gender pronouns e.g. in the third person singular in english – ‘he’ and ‘she’, or in the french – ‘il’ and ‘elle’.

    Having been a student of Hungarian over the past 8 years (and that doesn’t make me a fascist Orban supporter), there is no gender i.e. there is no ‘he’ or ‘she’ in the third person singular or plural. There is only ‘ö’ meaning ‘he/she’.
    There must be many more languages in the world that don’t have gender pronouns.
    Ther, part of the problem solved. Just sayin. Ah’ll get mah coat on.

  236. Robert Louis says:

    Capella at 1005am,

    I agree with improved transgender rights (with protections for women), but I also agree entirely with your comment, I do think the Scotgov is being ‘set up’.

  237. Capella says:

    @ Robert Louis – I agree with human rights for all, and that includes women. Like most people I was not aware of the issues at the centre of this debate. So I’ve had to do a lot of quick research. But I have time to do it, which most people don’t.

    Good that Morag has the scientific background to explain the biology.

    For the estimate of numbers see The Demographics of the Transgender Population. 2013. This has tables with best estimates of numbers in populations, including Scotland e.g in 1999 incidence per 100,000 was 8.2 (usual caveats about collecting data).

    You need to download the pdf to see the tables.

  238. jfngw says:

    If as some Tories claim a referendum should only be ‘once in a lifetime’. how come I’ve taken part in two regarding membership of the EU/CM.

  239. Jaygee says:

    Steph @09.33

  240. Legerwood says:

    jfngw says:
    31 May, 2019 at 10:57 am
    If as some Tories claim a referendum should only be ‘once in a lifetime’. how come I’ve taken part in two regarding membership of the EU/CM.””

    Worth remembering that the second referendum on the EU came about because the politicians who wanted it essentially argued that there had been ‘a material change’ in circumstances since the first referendum on Europe in the 1970s. Maastricht Treaty then the Lisbon Treaty.

    Therefore the precedent has been set that ‘a material change’, whatever its nature, is sufficient reason for a second referendum.

    Might be useful to remind the Unionists of this.

  241. Ken500 says:

    Very few people are bothered about it. Or what is going on. It will not affect the Scottish Gov.

    Boris coming under the spotlight for the serial affairs etc. Denial of a love child. He wants a quickie divorce to try and look respectable. He also disclosed someone address so they could get attacked. Murdoch sacked him for lying. Benefited from EU privilege. Lived in Brussels.

  242. orri says:

    Funny how they goalposts are being moved from “once in a generation” to “once in a lifetime.”

  243. Joe says:

    For those who think the Scottish government are being set up: i would say this has been team Sturgeon all along. Jump on any and every progressive bandwagon to appear ‘with it’ regardless if those causes clash with each other in future.

    Either that or they are involved deliberately with the same nonsense agenda that is simultaneously being pushed in Australia, the EU, Canada, the US, New Zealand etc.

    Id take the latter option. They are a Trojan horse now.

    The SNP are not really about Scotland anymore. They are more pawns to globalism and a global agenda. Thankfully the Scottish Independence movement is bigger than political parties and im glad to see a lot of comments reflecting that outlook.

  244. manandboy says:

    Why is Moray strongly pro-Tory and pro-Brexit? Eh, well…..

    Moray is home to RAF Lossiemouth, one of the largest and busiest multi aircraft-type stations in the Royal Air Force, and Kinloss Barracks, the base for the army’s 39 Royal Engineers (Air Support). In April 2018, the UK Government announced major investment in RAF Lossiemouth with the introduction of new aircraft to strengthen the defence of the UK and its allies. Over 10 years, MOD investment in the region of £3bn will increase Moray’s population by up to 4,000 people, including an additional 550 service personnel by 2020, bringing the total number employed at RAF Lossiemouth to over 2,200.

    There are strong ties between service personnel and their families and the wider community in Moray. There is a lot of support for families relocating to Moray from finding housing, schools and jobs for partners and spouses of armed forces personnel.

    You could start believing that Scotland was just another Overseas Territory in Westminster’s eyes.

  245. jfngw says:

    Surely John Lennon must fit into the transphobic criteria, that ‘Woman’ song phew!

  246. Capella says:

    @ Joe – the Tory Gov in Westminster has also conducted a consultation into amending the GRA in 2018 with a view to making SelfID easier. So I don’t think we can accuse the Tory Gov of jumping on every progressive bandwagon.

    The GRA was introduced inn 2004 when there were Labour govs in both Holyrood and Westminster. So I don’t think you can lay this at the door of the SNP.

    The flawed recent consultation seems more likely to be the result of lobbying of SG civil servants. It should be binned.

  247. Abulhaq says:

    @Frank Gillougley
    Add to that Armenian, Persian, Turkish, Finnish, Chinese…
    Gender is in origin a grammatical category. Modern English is gender neutral, nouns have lost their gender classification and no longer impact on grammatical structure as is the case in German or Arabic but it does have three surviving gender referent pronouns. The conflation of gender with sex is a result of a ‘neutral’ linguistic term being appropriated and loaded with significance it does not have.
    Gender has nothing to do with biological or psychological ‘taxonomy’. It is simply a handy device for classifying nouns derived from Latin grammar, where it actually matters. Its use, by the ignorant, outside the linguistic context is to be deplored.

  248. O/T
    Brexit is slowly taking effect be warned….

    Went to collect my prescription yesterday.

    Handed it in 10 days ago as usual. Have been collecting it for the last 8 years – no problems.

    Yesterday the pharmacist was unable to obtain my drug from any of his regular sources. They don’t know when or where they will be able to track it down – just keep phoning every few days to check…

    Fortunately I have 55 days left having built up an extra prescription’s worth before March 29th but as this is my post transplant, anti-rejection drug I am mildly worried.

    Take note people, if you need a prescription of something unusual get out there now and make sure you have some extra tucked away.

  249. Steph says:


    I see where you’re coming from, how it may effect indy votes.

    But sometimes it feels like an echo chamber in here in regards to taking the piss on things that are classed as “transphobic.”

    But @Illy from example, can’t we be at least a little more considerate in the way we express our feelings on this matter?

    I’m a woman, and I’m not saying I speak for all women – I don’t – but I personally don’t feel threatened if the person in the stall next to make taking a dump or having a piss has male genitals but identifies as female.

    Like I said, that’s just my personal feeling on the matter and I do understand and respect that other women do not feel this way. I understand that women have fought long and hard for rights to feel safe in their environment etc, I understand that women have been violated, assaulted and raped, and we do have the right to feel safe.

    But if someone is going to rape a woman or assault her, they don’t need to pretend to be transgender to do this. Rape, assault happens everywhere and anywhere. In fact, sexual assaults and rapes happen in female only toilets etc, as male sexual predators have crept into these “safe spaces” before.

    In fact, it’s just as common for women to sexually assault other women, and plenty of women have had that unfortunate experience. Just because something is “women only” doesn’t make it a safe space. The last thing a transgender person wants to do is show off their genitals in a public toilet.

    But again, I do completely understand the right to want the safe space.

    In fact, I even agree that males who identify only as female should not compete in female sports. There’s a lot of things people on here are saying about the issue of gender identification that I agree with, but I think the way it’s being discussed can come across a bit too aggressive (I understand the passion behind the issue) though.

    Again, at least try to see from @Illy’s pov: It can seem hurtful that they see people as basically calling them sexual predators.

    I think there are just better ways to discuss the issue without the sarcastic “oh, this is transphobic and that is transphobic” too.

    All I’m trying to do is see it from both sides.

    But I absolutely respect everyone’s opinion on the matter in here – even if I disagree with some of them. There is a way to express opinions without sounding too harsh.

    When black people were given the same space as white people, apartheid supporters used to scaremonger about the “dangers” black people posed because they were inherently more violent/aggressive or whatever.

    Gay people were also treated the same way.

    Nowadays it’s transgender people.

  250. jfngw says:


    Because they are quoting peoples of the cuff remarks/opinions, there is nothing which legally stipulates this. I think Nicola Sturgeon made this off the cuff remark in a TV interview, it was something like ‘probably only a once in a generation opportunity, perhaps maybe only once in a lifetime’. It was an opinion not a promise.

    Compared to Ruth Davidson’s daily policy change it isn’t even a talking point, except with Ruth Davidson and those in the MSM whose ear she has (pretty much all of them). The English Tories are just following her lead, they have no real interest in Scotland beyond its resources.

  251. Capella says:

    BTW I only realised that Westminster had conducted a consultation last year because that was the one I actually responded to. An email search revealed my mistake.

    The research carried out by SG civil servants had c 15,500 responses but only 49% of those were resident in Scotland. Odd that most respondents live in the rest of the UK or rest of the world!

    Of the groups responding, there were 20 Women’s groups, 28 Trans groups and 26 LGBT groups. Not all resident in Scotland.

    I wonder whether many women in Scotland realised that the consultation existed.

  252. Socrates MacSporran says:


    Re your “once in a lifetime point,” maybe just as well then, thanks to Toerag austerity, we Scots tend not to live as long, so, once in a Scottish lifetime tends not to be as long as once in an English lifetime.

    Therefore, the next independence referendum will be along all that quicker.

  253. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “But if someone is going to rape a woman or assault her, they don’t need to pretend to be transgender to do this. Rape, assault happens everywhere and anywhere. In fact, sexual assaults and rapes happen in female only toilets etc, as male sexual predators have crept into these “safe spaces” before.”

    Sigh. Burglars still burgle places with locked doors, so should we all just leave our front doors open all the time? This is such a daft argument.

    Obviously most trans people aren’t rapists, just like most men aren’t. But because SOME men are, we exclude men from some spaces for women’s safety. That doesn’t make everywhere safe. It doesn’t even make those places perfectly safe. But it makes those places MORE safe.

    And since transwomen are men, that means them too. It’s the penis. The penis is what women get raped with. So the rule in these places is “no penises”, because that’s the ONLY way to be sure. No man penises, no “lady penises”. No penises.

    “When black people were given the same space as white people, apartheid supporters used to scaremonger about the “dangers” black people posed because they were inherently more violent/aggressive or whatever.”

    Nobody is saying transwomen are “inherently more violent/aggressive” than any other kind of man. In fact all the stats show that they’re precisely AS violent/aggressive as other types of men, because they’re men.

  254. Capella says:

    @ Steph – I posted this on the Week in the War Aainst Women thread.
    I once worked for Women’s Aid. Men were not allowed inside the refuges. But that didn’t stop them standing outside with guns firing bullets through the windows or throwing acid over the face of a spouse caught outside the refuge (blinding her for life in a horrendously painful way so that she will never be able to see her young children again).

    So I would not agree that males are entitled to enter women’s safe spaces simply by declaring themselves to be female.

    As for r**e – the legal definition absolutely does apply only to men – who have a penis. Otherwise we are talking about sexual assault. Even then, the vast majority of violent crimes are committed by men (c 90% I can’t be bothered looking it up ATM.)
    However, the victims of violent crime are equally men or women.

  255. Capella says:

    Also, if we’re talking about sexual crimes committed by women, we have to bear in mind that police now record crimes committed by transwomen as women’s crimes. Apparently they have been doing this for some years. We have no way of knowing now what the true figure for women who commit crimes is.

  256. Legerwood says:

    jfngw says:
    31 May, 2019 at 11:47 am

    Because they are quoting peoples of the cuff remarks/opinions, there is nothing which legally stipulates this. I think Nicola Sturgeon made this off the cuff remark in a TV interview, it was something like ‘probably only a once in a generation opportunity, perhaps maybe only once in a lifetime’. It was an opinion not a promise.””

    It was not Nicola Sturgeon who said it. It was Mr Salmond.

    This was discussed at length on the previous thread and links to him saying it were included in some posts if you wish to check it out – look for the post by robbo

  257. Brian says:


    Is eating donuts transphobic?

    It’s all I’m worried about Science has all the answers I need.

  258. call me dave says:

    Woo Hoo!

    Works pension day and finally contributed for a new shiny badge.

    Love Wings. 🙂

  259. Morag says:

    In fact, it’s just as common for women to sexually assault other women

    That is complete and utter bollocks.

  260. Graham says:

    I know this is a bug-bear of yours but I don’t see how wading into this argument does anything to further the interests of Scottish Independence. All it does it give them a stick to beat you with.

  261. Capella says:

    @ Graham – I disagree. They already have a stick to beat us with. The only way to disarm them is through facts and scientific evidence.

  262. geeo says:

    Meg merrilees @11.45am

    I had the same issue with a specific item on my repeat prescription for the last couple of months, as it was difficult to source for the pharmacist.

    Because of the strength of the medication, and allergies to possible alternatives, it basically has to be what i get or i get a drug which will not help much at all.

    What I take only takes the edge off as it is, but allows me to function day to day.

    Pharmacist blames brexit concerns for supply issues.

    Thankfully for regulars, she now over orders hard to get stuff, when she can get it, so nobody is either left without or stressing they might be.

    Customer loyalty pays off sometimes !!

    It is a real concern for when brexit actually happens for a lot of people.

    I hope you continue to receive what you need, as your case shouldbe an absolute priority every time.

    This tory gov must see an opportunity for a wee bit more mass culling of the sick. They are contemptable scum.

  263. orri says:

    My point was that the original quote was “once in a generation” so about 20 years. Now tories, mainly, are changing that quote to “once in a lifetime” so 70 years.

    I’ve seen an interview where Salmond says it’s his own opinion and another where Surgeon explains that it’s more a reflection on how often these kind of referenda take place.

    Or at least that used to be the case but now the time between them is quickening.

    Then again in political terms the life of Westminster Parliaments is definitely getting shorter.

    That said I read in a few places in the run up to to either/both the independence referendum and the EU one a desire on some to have a defeat by as wide a margin as possible so as to put the matter to rest.

    That would not only make it less likely that public opinion might shift in the immediate aftermath but also that if the only change in the electorate was via deaths and coming of age then there would be enough of a continuity of voters that the result seemed valid for a long time.

    However the 45:55 split along with the tendency for younger voters to vote yes, older to vote no and an insistence on some that nothing has changed for previous voters still alive gives a potential that some time soon natural turn over should mean YES will win.

    Obviously the narrowness of the EU referendum means a similar trend would change the result far sooner.

    Basically the closer the result the shorter the time before it could be regarded as unsound.

    In other words the “lifetime” or more apt shelf life of a referendum result depends on the age profile of those who voted and the swing needed to overturn it as well as any factors that might cause a change of heart in those who either voted previously.

  264. slackshoe says:

    Final straw. This post has nothing to do with Scottish politics. I fail to understand why people like you, Glinner and others have become so consumed by an issue that probably barely registers on most people’s awareness, yet has got millions of disgruntled extremely online men foaming at the mouth thanks to swivel eyed grifters like Jordan Peterson. This is why I am now unfollowing you on Twitter, and probably won’t be back on here.

  265. Dr Jim says:

    Flags who’s waving them and why: Referendums:

    Unionists mean once in a forever unless they decide differently

    After all if you can invent a political flag and con people into believing it represents a *country* then call everybody elses flag Nationalist (even your own) you can pretty much get away with anything

    There was a wee Austrian fella copied the very same principles in the 1930s, didn’t end well for him though

  266. SilverDarling says:

    Many of us have come to this argument late in life when we thought our rights were unassailable.

    It feels now as if we were sleepwalking and all the while these rights we took for granted are now under real threat. It almost seems as if Trans individuals are not even the real focus of the argument anymore, it is about men telling women what is best for them and how they should share their hard won spaces and rights to represent themselves with anyone that men say.

    The toilet argument is almost spurious too – if it is men who threaten Transwomen then it should be men who should change their behaviour in male toilets or changing rooms. Women are being asked to accommodate and compensate for male behaviour towards Transwomen. Now if that seems an ask too far then consider why? Are men who are violent beyond the law? Why is male violence considered the responsibility of women?

    Why it is so important regarding Indy arguments is that the SNP have adopted almost without scrutiny the arguments of the TRAs and in doing so may have alienated a demographic – women over 45 – who need more convincing of Indy than the young activists they seem to be pandering to now.

  267. mike cassidy says:


    The weegingerdug link.

    Anybody with legal knowledge care to comment?

    Cos if that assessment is right

    Its popcorn time again!

  268. Giving Goose says:

    It’s actually very easy to be flippant about this subject and I have myself been rather flippant (see above contributions), however this is a subject well worth engaging with.
    I raised this issue at work with colleagues and was really surprised at the response.
    It would appear that this is not as niche as some would think.
    My colleagues are very aware of the Trans conversation current on social media and it has generated some real concerns.

    Although the number of Trans people in our society is relatively small they do make a great deal of “noise” and are heard.
    There are several points that we really do need to take notice of because the overall subject will (and already does) seep into the political conversation about Scotland.
    I’m not the best at articulating my thoughts, so apologies if I cause a faux pas with the use of language.

    Where I think the potential political minefields lie are with the rights of woman.
    If you think about the amount of effort that has been gone through over the decades to get equality for woman, e.g. the vote, equal pay and conditions; then the very quick political response to Trans people’s highlighting of their agendas, could be seen like a betrayal of everything that woman have fought long and hard for.
    There are various contributions above that touch on this.
    Where it gets political is when politicians start to bend in the wind of political correctness.
    There is a great danger that the Scottish Government and the Yes movement become embroiled in this debate and get painted into a corner.
    Where the engagement should take place in Scotland is to include Trans people in questions about education, the economy, health, jobs etc.
    In my opinion that is a better way to expend conversational energy.

  269. Clapper57 says:

    Breaking news ….Lib Dem Jo Swinson lied on BBC QT in her (wrong) assertion that only 4% from Govan area go onto University education.

    Well I am surprised she did that…..said NO ONE.

    Jo’s party riding on the crest of the remain wave….admitted on BBC breakfast TV that she would not be averse to once again going into coalition with Tories….

    Probably because that was such a winning strategy last time….said NO ONE.

    Jo and Willie need to understand that Unionist votes are being LENT to them just now because they have adopted a win win strategy to mop up the Unionist remain voters because they, as Lib Dems, are the quintessential scavenger party…nothing to lose by taking this position and everything to win for a once failing party bereft of principles and who saw a tactical opening left by a useless Labour party and ruthless Tory party.

    I am sure they will not betray the remain voters….said NO ONE….. with a memory of the Lib Dems political history or with any intellect….political or otherwise.

    Meanwhile in Scotland how we laugh at those Remain voters in England who are so desperate for another vote on EU that they are willing to hold their collective noses and vote Lib Dem… duh…. think on ….and remember…this will be wasted wasted vote….. they are just as much flip floppers as the queen of Flip Flops the Colonel.

    Vote Lib Dem ……should be said by NO ONE.

  270. jfngw says:


    They both said it, it’s still an opinion, it doesn’t matter how many people said it or if they believed it, it is not written in any laws. Also one administration does cannot tie another’s decisions, unless these are written into law which would then need to be amended first.

    Were we not told that general elections were to be every five years but the first administration after this rule just ignored it.

    The people of Scotland voted for a referendum in 2016, reinforced this vote in 2017 (SNP won both elections), I expect a referendum at the minimum. To be honest I would like just to tell WM to F.O. now, but that is just my opinion I won’t hold the whole country to it.

  271. jfngw says:


    To be accurate the ‘once in a lifetime’ was only Nicola Sturgeon to my knowledge. There is a clip of this somewhere, probably on YouTube, but I’m not wasting time looking for it.

  272. Morag says:

    Many of us have come to this argument late in life when we thought our rights were unassailable.

    It feels now as if we were sleepwalking and all the while these rights we took for granted are now under real threat. It almost seems as if Trans individuals are not even the real focus of the argument anymore, it is about men telling women what is best for them and how they should share their hard won spaces and rights to represent themselves with anyone that men say.

    The toilet argument is almost spurious too – if it is men who threaten Transwomen then it should be men who should change their behaviour in male toilets or changing rooms. Women are being asked to accommodate and compensate for male behaviour towards Transwomen. Now if that seems an ask too far then consider why? Are men who are violent beyond the law? Why is male violence considered the responsibility of women?

    SilverDarling, that is so on the nail. I also thought there was nothing left to fight for as regards women’s rights in developed western democracies. I put my political energy into fighting for independence instead. This has shown me how wrong I was.

    The response to the trans demands has, as you say, been instructive. No tackling of the real issue which seems to be that men cannot be trusted to treat their feminine-presenting brothers with kindness and understanding, just the demand that women should budge over and make room for the misfit men.

    Also, as Giving Goose pointed out, that whereas women had to fight against enormous opposition to achieve basic rights, and this fight lasted for decades, the trans lobby just seems to be able to turn up, aggressively demand whatever they want (and to hell with anyone else’s rights) and the response is yes sir, certainly sir, three bags full sir.

  273. Liz g says:

    Mike Cassidy @ 1.57
    I think that assessment is indeed correct.
    But what we don’t know is if Westminster will move to “reserve” all kinds of referendums?

  274. geeo says:


    Why on earth are you still blithering about a throwaway line ?

    Ever heard an exotic holiday described as “once in a lifetime” ?

    Do these people not go on holiday ever again ?

    Get a grip ffs.

    We, the sovereign People of Scotland will decide when we want a referendum on indy, as long as we vote into power, a party which has holding one in its manifesto.

    We had one after the 2011 election.

    We are having one after the 2016 election.

    If need be, we can have one after the 2021 election and so forth.

    If ever Scots do not want one, then we can vote for a party who does not have one in its manifesto.

    No reasons are required, no justification.

    If the SNP manifesto simply says, vote SNP for another indyref, then we can have one as it is the will of the sovereign people of Scotland.

    Democratic choice in action.

    When Davidson/Leonard/Rennie all yelp that “Scots do not want another referendum”, then all you have to do is ask them this: “then why do they keep voting for a party with one in their manifesto ” ?

    Not rocket science.

  275. mike cassidy says:

    The whole selfidentity thing is built on a foundation of bullshit.

    I feel like a woman. Therefore I’m a woman.

    As if there is written down somewhere what all women feel like and all you have to do is tick enough boxes and you are one.

    Myra Hindley. Margaret Thatcher. My Mum. (sorry, Mum.)

    Here’s the reality.

  276. iainmore says:

    So what about that South African athlete that Seb Coe hates and the Brit Press and Media isn’t too keen on either? I want to have Seb Coe sex tested or am I getting off topic or is he just a fanny anyway?.

  277. Scozzie says:

    This has everything to do with Scottish politics. It’s the Scottish Government who are proposing to amend the GRA to enable self ID. Self ID throws up a whole load of issues not least the protections of women’s safe spaces.

    The trans lobby is becoming a pervasive entity. Already groups such as Mermaids etc are ‘training’ police forces and schools in their ideology(not sure if this has happened yet in Scotland but certainly has happened in England). Language and science is being turned on its head. You may state something as factual as ‘only women can have babies’ and be found to be supposedly using hate speech as it’s supposedly transphobic. The list Stu put up was not just ridiculing the absurdity of the trans lobby ideology but to also demonstrate the censoring of language and science.

    We are dangerously close to the legal definition of female sex being obliterated in favour of gender identity.

    This affects us all, we all have mothers, sisters, nieces. Men would do women a big favour to get up to speed of what is happening quiety under the radar and support women to defend our rights. That is exactly what Stu and other influential men are doing and they’re taking lots of flack for it.

  278. Breeks says:

    jfngw says:
    31 May, 2019 at 2:11 pm


    To be accurate the ‘once in a lifetime’ was only Nicola Sturgeon to my knowledge. There is a clip of this somewhere, probably on YouTube, but I’m not wasting time looking for it.

    How many lifetimes are there in 312 years when we didn’t get a referendum? I think we’ve got serviceable backlog of unused “once in a lifetime” opportunities… enough to have an indepence referendum once a month for few years if we want to, and that’s without even going into overdraft on “Once in a lifetime Opportunities”.

    After 312 years, the Once in Lifetime Cookie jar is pretty much full to the brim. Dig in says me. You’ll maybe never get a better opportunity in your entire life….

  279. Terry callachan says:

    To silver nail and morag

    Well said so exact

  280. Terry callachan says:

    “ once in a lifetime”

    So many things we do are we imagine at the time “once in a lifetime “ things
    but then we progress ,develop, age , mature, marry , separate , divorce , etc etc etc
    and we change our mind
    It’s very human it’s the way we improve develop and progress

  281. HandandShrimp says:

    In news other than underpants contents, that is a remarkable poll today with the Tories and Labour 3rd and 4th on 19%.

    The Scottish sub sample had the SNP on 44% (and Greens on 6% which is significant) so no cataclysmic impacts here. However, can’t see the Tories calling an early election on those numbers.

  282. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    So to be ultra-correct should LGBT not be changed to LGBW then…?

    Just wonderin’…(!)

    (It seems self-doubts about identity even extend to a denial of what – to everyone else – is an obvious unique personality category. Confused or what? Or just another dubious exercise in advantage cherrypicking?)

  283. Terry callachan says:

    “ once in a lifetime”

    So many things we do are we imagine at the time “once in a lifetime “ things
    but then we progress ,develop, age , mature, marry , separate , divorce , etc etc etc
    and we change our mind
    It’s very human it’s the way we improve develop and progress

    Imagine making a decision , having a point of view and never ever ever changing it !
    We would all have the mind of a new born baby ?

  284. Liz g says:

    Once in a lifetime!!!
    Doesn’t matter who said it….
    The Yes movement disagrees and they work for us…

  285. Phil says:

    geeo says:
    30 May, 2019 at 1:56 pm

    “I can honestly say that i have never encountered an issue with any of the above list in my 52 years on earth.

    Maybe ……..”

    Maybe 53 years on this planet is Transphobic!

  286. galamcennalath says:

    Once in a lifetime?

    We’ll let the British and English Nationalists know the answer to that one soon enough.

    Truth is they already know the answer.

  287. vlad (not that one) says:

    O/T See today’s Indycar, food for thought.
    Softly, softly, catchee monkey?

  288. Lenny Hartley says:

    Scozzie @ 1431 well said. We need to start paying attention on this subject, acording to the figures posted earlier 8,2 per 100,000 of Scots were Trans in 1999, thats under 1000 people in Scotland!
    Time the SNP woke up, on another matter, found out today the new Transport Bill which will be introduced in a couple of weeks will ban all Veteren/vintage and Classic Vehicles from City Centres.(In England these vehicles are excempt from low emissions legislation) If the SNP want to throw any Indy Ref2 they are going the correct way about it. I am one totally scunnered SNP Member at the moment.

  289. HandandShrimp says:

    “Once in a lifetime opportunity” was what was said and as such was not some sort of weird pledge to tie all future mandates and governments but a simple sales pitch to get people out to vote. Make the most of this you might not get another chance. Indeed were it not for Cameron’s moment of madness we might not have have had another chance any time soon.

    A shop may have a once in a life time opportunity to purchase goods but may have an even better deal a couple of years later because circumstances and the economy have changed. The observation had no more meaning than that but it is a sign of unionist desperation that they repeat it (inaccurately) ad nauseam. Their desperation is not a bad thing though. Even the stones in the streets are bored with their limited range of mantras.

  290. Jimbo says:

    Wow, who knew so many things and so many people can be deemed as being transphobic?

    Is it safe to be heterosexual?

  291. geeo says:

    Callachan@2.46pm :”Imagine making a decision , having a point of view and never ever ever changing it !
    We would all have the mind of a new born baby ?

    Excellent self summary there…oh wait, thats harsh, you self identified as a green voter for a couple of days, before reverting to being a Concern Troll…!!

    New born baby has more sense than you.

  292. Ottomanboi says:

    George Orwell could never have imagined that 1984 would be inaugurated by a phalanx of ‘Ladyboys’. I suspect I may have just hatespoke….

  293. CameronB Brodie says:

    It is disappointing that some folk appear to think that the integrity of political reason and legal doctrine is an insignificant issue. This shows a particularly narrow appreciation of politics and human rights. Fact!

    Sex Effects on Development of Brain Structure and Executive Functions: Greater Variance than Mean Effects


    Although male brains have consistently reported to be 8–10% larger than female brains, it remains not well understood whether there are differences between sexes (average or variance) in developmental trajectories. Furthermore, if sex differences in average brain growth or variance are observed, it is unknown whether these sex differences have behavioral relevance.

    The present longitudinal study aimed to unravel sex effects in cortical brain structure, development, and variance, in relation to the development of educationally relevant cognitive domains and executive functions (EFs). This was assessed with three experimental tasks including working memory, reading comprehension, and fluency.

    In addition, real-life aspects of EF were assessed with self- and parent-reported Behavior Rating Inventory of Executive Function scores. The full data set included 271 participants (54% female) aged between 8 and 29 years of which three waves were collected at 2-year intervals, resulting in 680 T1-weighted MRI scans and behavioral measures. Analyses of average trajectories confirmed general age-related patterns of brain development but did not support the hypothesis of sex differences in brain development trajectories, except for left banks STS where boys had a steeper decline in surface area than girls.

    Also, our brain age prediction model (including 270 brain measures) did not indicate delayed maturation in boys compared with girls. Interestingly, support was found for greater variance in male brains than female brains in both structure and development, consistent with prior cross-sectional studies. Behaviorally, boys performed on average better on a working memory task with a spatial aspect and girls performed better on a reading comprehension task, but there was no relation between brain development and cognitive performance, neither for average brain measures, brain age, or variance measures.

    Taken together, we confirmed the hypothesis of greater males within-group variance in brain structures compared with females, but these were not related to EF. The sex differences observed in EF were not related to brain development, possibly suggesting that these are related to experiences and strategies rather than biological development.

  294. Clapper57 says:

    Once in a lifetime ?

    Same as it ever was…Same as it ever was……from the real Talking Heads…but stolen and twisted by the political talking heads …no style and no substance….blah blah bloody blah as per….talking of a lifetime is Brexit eternal or generational….asking for a voter friend who has LENT their vote to Lib Dems ….not for a lifetime…just LENT it until the faint hope that a second EU ref will materialise…then back to business as usual…i.e. vote for anyone other than Lib Dems…with exceptions obvs.

    Or until Lib Dems betray her trust…now that IS surely an eternal probability and not confined to a generation…. and indeed most certainly WILL happen more than once in her lifetime.

  295. Abulhaq says:

    The SNP is not a republican party but how many commenters on here are?
    I have never understood the ‘queamishness’ in some Nationalist circles about republicanism. Do they actually think it would put voters off?
    Perhaps someone might explain?
    I do not believe, from my observations, that the institution of monarchy is especially popular in Scotland, albeit the present monarch does have many fans.

  296. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I have even heard some Tory claiming that the “once in a whatever” was written into the Edinburgh Agreement. Plumb ignorant, wishful thinking or outright lying, I dunno. Whatever, they are getting soooo desperate now.

    And it shows.

    [Readers’ warning: this comment was issued without the permission of Sajid Javid.]

  297. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Abulhaq @ 15:43,

    Bog off, you transparent wannabe diversionary shit-stirrer.

    First things first.

  298. ronnie anderson says:

    jfngw U of limited knowledge Alex Salmond was the 1st person to coin the phrase re the Independence referendum 2014 during a interview on Sky tv .

  299. SilverDarling says:

    Thanks, Morag and others.

    My route to this is a personal experience. My elderly mother is now in a care home having been cared for by me and my siblings for some years. She became quite paranoid with dementia and personal care was something that caused a huge deal of anxiety for her and us. Latterly she would not allow males to attend to her and although the carers were wonderful, more often than not they could not always guarantee female only staff. The care home can. It is one small example but for me it was a pivotal moment. I can only imagine how she would have reacted if a self ID individual who looked male with a beard had tried to convince her they were female.

    It made me think of all the instances where as a women, we might want other women to attend to our medical or personal care and we would have to accommodate the feelings of the individual who identifies as a female over our needs in times of pain or fear. Where we would want only the company of women, in refuges or shelters because we might feel threatened and how that could no longer be guaranteed if self ID is adopted.

    On a more general level, we hear all the time about poor uptake for smear tests or breast screening and I’m sure there are many women who feel it doesn’t matter who carries out these procedures but there are others for whom it is extremely important.

    This is not all about seeing predatory males everywhere or even that women are better than men at some things, it is about what allows you control over your body and your space and your rights.

  300. CameronB Brodie says:

    Gender and race equality aren’t widely discussed issues, most folk don’t have the time to consider the global effects of their actions. Most folk are generally getting on with the day-to-day and although aware of “distributive justice”, most are at a loss when trying to explain why the 1% keep getting richer while they are standing still, at best. Fortunately gender provides a particularly powerful lens to examine the workings of neo-colonial capitalism through.

    Explaining gender violence in the neoliberal era

    Let us begin with an image: a naked white man pursuing a low-wage Black female asylum seeker down the corridors of an expensive Manhattan hotel in order to force her to have sex with him. The man, of course, is the then-director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), French politician Dominique Strauss-Kahn, and the woman, thirty-three-year-old Nafissatou Diallo, a housekeeper at Strauss-Kahn’s hotel who was also at the time seeking asylum in the United States from her native Guinea, a former colony of France.

    Although all criminal charges of rape and assault were dropped against the IMF chief, he had to pay a somewhat heavy price that included, among other things, his resignation and a hefty financial settlement to Ms. Diallo. Was justice, then, served? The answer should be of interest to all revolutionary Marxists. This is because a veritable cartography of dispossession extends between these two figures, and it is the purpose of this essay to outline that map.1

    This image ought to be considered an icon for our times. It is iconic in the sense that the scene captures a moment when the distinction between the individual and societal vanishes, and the individuals—the naked wealthy white man and the Black low-waged woman—emerge as pure embodiments of the societal….

  301. CameronB Brodie says:

    It appears I’ve been over-doing things, again. For those that are interested, “Explaining gender violence in the neoliberal era” is @ 3:56pm. It looks like I might need to work out some proper rules with the Rev. (joke). 😉


  302. ronnie anderson says:

    Am transmogrifying into ah Mental institution Its no safe oot here lol .

  303. Dan says:

    Lenny Hartley says: at 3:09 pm

    …On another matter, found out today the new Transport Bill which will be introduced in a couple of weeks will ban all Veteren/vintage and Classic Vehicles from City Centres.(In England these vehicles are exempt from low emissions legislation)

    Oh aye, have you a link for that Lenny?
    For the small percentage of classic vehicles there are in regular use, and the mileages they actually do this seems an odd policy to be looking to implement.

    Related to pollution, are wood, coal fires banned in cities?

  304. galamcennalath says:

    Alyn Smith’s weekly update ….

    I am still absolutely amazed that Christian Allard being a French citizen and elected to represent Scotland hasn’t featured in the media.

    I would have thought the pro Brexit loonie right rags would have spat the dummy …. how dare those peskie Scots elect someone who isn’t ‘British’ to represent them!?

    Perhaps, of course, they have decided it’s news which must be suppressed …. not the sort of agenda to be promoted … Scots are Europeans.

  305. Clootie says:


    Everyone knows we have many issues to discuss. However we can not address any of these issues until we have the power I.e. Independence.
    Wish lists are a distraction and pointless. I don’t know what shape an Independent Scotland will take and nobody knows what it will be in 100 years. However I know that the people who live here will have chosen it. That is good enough for me.

  306. Robert Peffers says:

    @Abulhaq says: 31 May, 2019 at 3:43 pm@

    ” … I do not believe, from my observations, that the institution of monarchy is especially popular in Scotland, albeit the present monarch does have many fans.”

    Perhaps, Abulhaq, there is sound reason why the monarch is of little importance in Scotland. Since at least 1320 the monarchy in Scotland is not legally sovereign and thus unimportant. Legally we Scots are not Her Majesty’s subjects as are her English, Welsh and Irish subjects.

    Now it may not have crossed your mind but as the people are legally sovereign it means that she is the only person in the Kingdom of Scotland who is a subject of the sovereign people of Scotland.

    What is more we do not even need to change Scottish law to get rid of her. We just, as sovereign, tell her she is no longer our subject and servant.

    After all her job in Scotland is Defender of the People’s sovereignty – she has, in my opinion, done a lousy job so far.

  307. Capella says:

    @ CBB – you post a lot, that’s true, and I skim read most of it and click on some of it, but there aren’t enough hours in the day to read all of it. Some very relevant links though 🙂

    There are great comments on here with much insight into a problem which has to be resolved. Some express doubt about the relevance to WoS. If you have been following Stu’s twitter for any length of time you will be aware of the enormous struggle building up in the background. The YES movement has to get to grips with it and arrive at some consensus. We do that through discussion.

    Stu shows great courage in confronting this issue openly.

  308. geeo says:

    Remember when Trump called a certain North Korean dictator “a great guy” ?

    His (Kim Jong bad’un) SISTER is in hiding ‘just in case’ as she was part of the team who have been murdered.

    Same Trump thinks Boris and Farage are ‘great guys’.

  309. galamcennalath says:

    hackalumpoff says:

    Good article on Referendums bill from GMK.

    Indeed. GMK is usually fairly reserved in his thinking, but this is pleasantly radical ….

    ” … any snap GE becomes a pseudo-referendum (in Scotland) but with a twist … If the SNP win a majority then … if the UK still refuses a section 30, they have the right to declare independence before Brexit and immediately begin negotiations on independence from the UK and on continuing EU membership (Scotland never having left) “

    …. 🙂

  310. Dr Jim says:

    Loads of countries have referendums all the time on all sorts of things and don’t have a problem with democracy

    Only dictators have a problem with democracy

  311. Breeks says:

    Dr Jim says:
    31 May, 2019 at 4:37 pm

    Loads of countries have referendums all the time on all sorts of things and don’t have a problem with democracy

    Only dictators have a problem with democracy

    Given Scotland’s extraordinary popular sovereignty of the people, if Scotland had never entered the Union but been an Independent Nation throughout the last 300 years and developed it’s own democracy, it is pretty inconceivable that modern Scotland would not have a Parliament which was fundamentally inseparable from countless referendums, as entirely fitting for a sovereign electorate.

  312. Scozzie says:

    capella @ 4.28pm
    ‘Stu shows great courage in confronting this issue openly’. Well said Capella, I’m ashamed to say I would not have been aware of this issue if it wasn’t for Stu’s twitter feed that brought it to my attention. This is not being widely debated in the MSM (no surprises there!).

    I agree the YES movement need to collectively get to grips with the issue of self ID and its implications. As you previously pointed out approx 50% of the voting population are women and does the Scottish government really want to piss off that franchise?

    The legal, scientific and linguistic definition of women is being reduced to a bloody Shenia Twain song!!!!! I am so livid with some in the SNP in advocating this policy of self ID. I’m so thankful for Joan McAlpine and Joanna Cherry for their support and it saddens me they are getting flack from some within their own ranks.

  313. Dan says:

    @Lenny Hartley at 4:24 pm

    Cheers for the link Lenny. I’ve got various classic vehicles that will be affected.
    I’ve also dozens of Indy friends and acquaintances with classic cars and businesses that specialise in classic vehicle restoration so will share and make them aware of this.

    FFS. At this rate Murdo Fraser might finally win a seat!

  314. call me dave says:

    Very interesting indeed.

    This, including the WGD and some other commentators, looks like a fertile seam to be explored.

    Strangely enough, apart from the usual Ruthie and current WM p*sh, there is no actual rebuttal from ‘Brit Nat’ sources.

    But rest assured there will be a few Government Madarins darn Sarf poring over legal tomes as we speak. 🙂

  315. Colin Alexander says:

    @ Dan

    In Glasgow you are not allowed to discharge smoke from your lum.

  316. galamcennalath says:

    David Cameron has a new job leading board of artificial intelligence firm. As someone clearly lacking in natural intelligence perhaps his renumeration package includes some implants.

  317. Joe says:

    @Scozzie 2:31

    ‘This affects us all, we all have mothers, sisters, nieces. Men would do women a big favour to get up to speed of what is happening quiety under the radar and support women to defend our rights. That is exactly what Stu and other influential men are doing and they’re taking lots of flack for it.’

    ‘Men’ have been. The trouble is this is only just starting to properly affect women and, more importantly, feminists. I have been dismissed as a bigot for suggesting what everyone is saying on this comments section. Thanks to feminism white men are always walking close to the line when they say anything negative that involves another group in society.

    Now we get ‘but…where are all the men??’ when the problem properly rears its head.

    Well, heres some brutal truth for the ladies out there: your problems, thanks to the PC brigade, have only just begun. Just wait til theres enough adherents of a certain religion in your area that wont leave you alone unless you are properly attired and the crime rate soars.

    I can hear it now ‘but…where are all the men??’ Don’t believe it? Just wait.

    Where are the men? Where we have always been. But unfortunately we always come last in the PC oppression olympics (toxic masculinity, anyone?) which means we were the first to lose the right to complain. Just as women are losing it now.

  318. Republicofscotland says:

    Anyone interested in the truth about Julian Assange’s unlawful persecution should read Mr Cook’s excellent account on the matter.

    The nefarious activities of the British State with regards to Assange are breathtaking.

  319. ben madigan says:

    o/T people – here’s an analysis of why Sinn Fein lost so many votes in the local Irish and EU elections.

    It’s a sorta warning to the SNP since SNP and SF share some features though not many others.

    I do wonder whether something similar could happen to the SNP in the future, unless Indyref2 gets moving.

  320. geeo says:

    Joe@5.28pm said this:

    Well, heres some brutal truth for the ladies out there: your problems, thanks to the PC brigade, have only just begun. Just wait til theres enough adherents of a certain religion in your area that wont leave you alone unless you are properly attired and the crime rate soars.

    Sneaky attempt at islamophobia there.

    Noted and reported.

  321. galamcennalath says:

    I spotted this article earlier, but was behind a paywall. Rev Stu has kindly captured it for us …

    Tom Harris points out that IndyRef1 changed politics in Scotland forever and any party (Labour in Scotland) which fails to get involved is screwed. He says, rightly, this should have been a lesson for Brexit. Labour has however failed to engage and is being screwed, again. It’s a fair analysis.

    However, he’s a Brit Nat and ends the article by proposing that the way to resolve the Brexit issue is simply to “get Brexit over with”. Does it not occur to him that the logic may apply also to Scotland? The easy way to resolve the issue of how Independence dominates politics here is to get INDEPENDENCE over with!

  322. Dr Jim says:

    The court case against Glasgow City Council brought by the Orange Order to overturn the GCC decision to reroute OO marches has been thrown out of court

  323. Joe says:


    I used to be a transphobe (like all of you now)

    Feel free

  324. call me dave says:

    @Dr Jim

    Good news. Must have given them the pip!

  325. CameronB Brodie says:

    Joe @5:28pm
    That’s simply ‘entitled white male resentment’. Just say what you really think, its’ pretty clear where you’re coming from.

  326. Fireproofjim says:

    My SNP voting wife is a strong monarchist, no doubt like many others, so why push a republican agenda which will only antagonise some Inde voters. It’s a question for after we win.
    Anyway, most of the countries which we admire and hope to emulate are monarchies. I give you Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, Australia, Canada, New Zealand.

  327. galamcennalath says:

    A passing thought.

    Not so long ago trans meant someone who had physically transitioned, or was in the process of transitioning. Fair and clear. I respect their bravery and commitment.

    When did trans begin to include people who haven’t actually transitioned physically, nor have any intentions of transitioning in any meaningful way beyond in their own mind?

  328. Mike cassidy says:


    As has been said to others.

    You’ll have to up your game if you intend to troll this site.

    And playing the poor, oppressed white man suffering from pcitis ain’t gonna cut it.

  329. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Clootie at 4.27
    Good post. Exactly. Our enemy loves us to be dividing over all sorts of stuff we can’t deal with till we are free.

  330. galamcennalath says:

    Fireproofjim says:

    most of the countries which we admire and hope to emulate are monarchies. I give you Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Sweden

    Indeed. That challenges me. I am a republican on the grounds that I do not believe in hereditary privilege. And yet, as you point out, the nations we look up to he most and believe are models for iScotland, are monarchies.

    It’s one of many decisions we Scots can settle after we achieve independence.

  331. Capella says:

    Whilst may of the countries I don’t like have presidents. Even heriditary presidencies like the Bushes.

  332. schrodingers cat says:

    galamcennalath says:

    ” … any snap GE becomes a pseudo-referendum (in Scotland) but with a twist … If the SNP win a majority then … if the UK still refuses a section 30, they have the right to declare independence before Brexit and immediately begin negotiations on independence from the UK and on continuing EU membership (Scotland never having left) “

    i’ve been posting that on here for months

  333. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dan , i Also know a lot of folk in the Classic Bike field and its not very popular at all. I am scunnered that SNP legislation is making me support a Murdo Fraser amendment. Very poor from the Scots Government, definate vote loser. I have emailed my MSP, however I am not holding my breath .

  334. Dan says:

    @Colin Alexander at 5:22 pm

    Thanks Colin. I was born in Auld Reekie but only pass through it occasionally these days so wasn’t sure what the status was.
    Oil heating can still pump out the CO2 though.

    I understand that dealing with pollution is an ongoing agenda, which in this instance is most likely to do with health matters due to the proximity of vehicles and high density of people in city centres.
    The trouble I have with it is that in some cases it just offsets the pollution to elsewhere so other people and wildlife suffer the effects.
    Importing firewood from eastern Europe to be burnt in the UK must have some pretty significant implications with haulage and shipping.
    Don’t mention air travel…

    First they came for the coal fires and I said nothing, but was cold because in this low wage economy I lacked the funds to upgrade to more environmentally sound housing and heating equipment.

    Then they came for the woodburning stoves and I said fair enough if you’re importing your wood from freakin Lithuania!

    Then they came for the smokers and to be honest I was quite chuffed about that.

    Then they came for the classic cars and I’m somewhat peeved because that will do nothing to stop city folk driving their kids to school in Chelsea tractors. Get the wee chiels to cycle to school for some exercise.

    Then they came for the vapers and because they’d already banned the fairground folk cos the Waltzer was powered by a big diesel generator, I am disappointed that the smell of candy floss will be lost forever.

    Then they came for the BBQs because drunk folk setting fire to animals whilst reekin out the neighborhood is no loner acceptable.

    Welcome to the future of bland compliance…

    I’m now thinking that Logan’s Run would actually be a good way for society to go, because at least I’d have some bloody excitement evading the authorities!

  335. Maria F says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    31 May, 2019 at 3:44 pm
    “I have even heard some Tory claiming that the “once in a whatever” was written into the Edinburgh Agreement”

    Look who is the naughty birdie that is currently claiming in its website that the referendum “was a once-in-a-generation opportunity”!!!!!
    So much for attempting to ping down the blame on Ms Sturgeon or Mr Salmond eh?

    And this of course are some of the pack of lies that Scotland’s office spouted at the time, please note the matters referring to Scotland having to apply to get back in the EU (pag 6)

    And now look at this one and the lies in the front page already

    “The referendum on 18th September 2014 means
    making a big decision – a forever decision”

    ” The UK will still go on without Scotland, as will all the
    organisations and services it provides”

    Actually, looking at those documents retrospectively, the pro-union propaganda in those leaflets is simply breathtaking and I would say undemocratic. Would the brextremists ever tolerate the EU producing that kind of propaganda leaflets during the EU ref?

    More propaganda on steroids

    All the above leaflets were generated by Scotland’s office and can be accessed from the UK gov website here:

    Look in the link below at the enormous number of papers that the UK gov produced prior to the Scottish referendum (with our money, by the way), for every detail

    And then compare them with the papers the same gov published BEFORE brexit.

    Do you notice anything different?

    Now, I have unearthed this, from 2012

    It is obvious from this “consultation” that the UK gov was not convinced it could reliably peddle the idea that Holyrood did not have power to call referendums and therefore conducted a restricted “consultation” in 2012.

    It is fascinating the list of organisations consulted in Annex A. I would like to know why organisations like the British Academy, the English democrats, the English lobby, the London Scottish conservative club were consulted on Scotland’s constitutional status. Names like Adam Tomkins, of course, appear among the people consulted, which throws huge question marks over how random this “consultation” actually was.

    It is also fascinating the ridiculous number of times such document insists “the UK Government set out its clear understanding that the Scottish Parliament does not have the legal authority to hold an independence referendum” as if for repeating this more times will make it more true. This “consultation” is determined to prove that by providing only the responses of those who agreed with the uk view, but suppressing the views of those who did not – this is very, very telling.

    This “consultation” makes crystal clear to me that Scotland’s office did not have a clue at the time of what the real situation was, but were very clear of what they wanted and what the end result would have to be: they wanted/needed Holyrood to not have the powers to do this.

    In addition, it shows the enormous level of meddling of the UK gov which wanted to have a say in everything, since the type of question, when the referendum should take place, the participation of the electoral commission, who would oversee the process and the franchise, this is impressive. Reading this, one almost feels that this was not really Scotland’s referendum at all, but rather Westmisnter’s referendum.

    It is clear to me from this document that the situation is not “crystal clear” as the UK gov pretends it to be but rather a matter of opinion. The question for me is how relevant the opinion of those “consulted” actually was.

    Please tell me that I am not the only one that reading all this garbage retrospectively feels sick at the unfettered level of propaganda and interference of an organisation that should have had simply step back and acted neutral in our referendum. Those leaflets read to me more as a threat as anything else. And well the consultation, just a stitch up job to endorse the “view” of the UK gov, not the courts, mind, but “the uK gov”.

  336. schrodingers cat says:

    for scot greens info

  337. CameronB Brodie says:

    So what’s liberal democracy really about then and will it exist in Brexitania?

    Liberalism is no friend of gender equality

    Historically, liberal thought was not aligned with female emancipation or gender equality. The idea that women were inferior to men and needed to be kept in a state of dependency was not a betrayal of liberalism – instead, it was at the heart of liberal thinking.

  338. Sinky says:

    Good old BBC reporting Scotland puff piece failed to challenge Jo Swinton over her slur on Govan schools on BBC Question Time

  339. North chiel says:

    Pathetic Quay “ propaganda team “ , with early indication of “ Better together 2” leadership “ get to know the new faces “ Rory Stewart and Joe Swinson. Expect to see their persona increasing incrementally as the anti self determination campaign propagated by the “ in house Britnat servants” at Pathetic Quay moves into gear.

  340. galamcennalath says:

    schrodingers cat says:

    i’ve been posting that on here for months

    You have indeed, as have others.

    What I think is significant is the usually un-radical, conservative even dare I suggest (small c), GMK is putting the idea to print.

  341. Pete says:

    You are one of the few sensible people on here.
    Time NS stopped hacking people off with trying to be so pc.
    It’s fair enough having left wing economic views, although I don’t, but it’s time she learnt that Scots are, by nature, socially conservative.

  342. CameronB Brodie says:

    Is “socially conservative” the new code for culturally intolerant?

  343. Footsoldier says:

    “Ruth Davidson faces huge backlash over backing of Brexiteer Tory
    By Andrew Learmonth @andrewlearmonth Journalist”.

    Davidson is not going down too well in England as well as Scotland. Time for her to do the day job and produce a policy – any policy because right now there are none – and she wants to be First Minister?

  344. Cactus says:

    Greetings frae ra Scottish mainland, Scotland… lochside

    Ahm awa somewhere and everything

    Love X.

  345. alistair x says:

    I read in todays national that on the last Glasgow march, one of manky shirts *force for good* brown shirts tried to disrupt the bikers roar past with a pathetic attempt to grab flags.
    he then dropped his kackes and flashed his arse,earning himself a public indecency charge and 200 hours community service.
    His name was Bates, and if I pass his crew tomorrow I will be chanting”bates bates, wheres master bates?”
    childish I know, but they would do a lot worse to us if they could.

  346. Cactus says:

    Oui have wifi here aye

    iScotland’s jist arun yer corner

    Could B a long night Wingers


  347. Capella says:

    Topical – BBC has an article about India’s 3rd gender – eunuchs. Much persecuted under British colonial rule, they were officially recognised as a third gender in 2014.

  348. Pete Barton says:

    @ North chiel 6:53

    Spot on

    Watch this unfold.

    Rory and Jo are being groomed for BT fame.

    @ PQ Give it up now, your new stars have been spotted before they ascend.

  349. Scott says:

    Sinky says:
    Good old BBC reporting Scotland puff piece failed to challenge Jo Swinton over her slur on Govan schools on BBC Question Time

    I noticed that as well shouting at that twerp Kerr go ask her and why did Sally Mag not ask?oh I forget it is SiU BBC.

  350. wee ginger, wee says:

    listicles are transphobic, why boast about the length and breadth of your list?
    should be presented as a gender neutral wordsquare, without O’s or l’s, they are problematic.

  351. Scott says:

    BBC Scotland Douglas Fraser telling us about Scotland’s black hole its a pity he did not mention nor does any other MSM the link below,

  352. Capella says:

    The Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill 2021 stage three proceedings are scheduled for 12th June

    15. There has always been a question on sex with a binary response option (male/female) included in the census. The 2011 Census recognised that society‘s understanding of sex has changed and guidance provided explained that the question was being asked in terms of self identified sex. Looking forward to 2021, consultation has identified the need for a more inclusive
    approach to measuring sex. The sex question being proposed for the 2021 Census will continue to be one of self-identification and will provide non-binary response options. Importantly, the sex question proposed will not seek a declaration of biological or legal sex.

    See the Parliamentary business page for details of other related papers.

  353. geeo says:

    Pete @7.30pm

    The fact you said Joe is sensible, says a lot about you.

    Joe made an Islamophobic slur earlier.

    Did you think that was a sensible comment ?

  354. Robert Peffers says:

    @Joe says: 31 May, 2019 at 5:49 pm:

    ” … I used to be a transphobe (like all of you now)
    Feel free”

    That is quite a stupid accusation, Joe, and quite an idiotic sweeping generalisation.

    I do hope you realise that it also hinders the cause you espouse but instead deeply harms it. As does, of course, that sick photo way up there /|\. You do not get a sympathetic hearing by punching people in the ear.

  355. Terry callachan says:

    Watching the BBC programme about the Scotland women’s football team.
    What a fantastic achievement , what a great manager they have , I didn’t know about their individual or team successes , how come ? is it just me or has the media been a bit too quiet about it over the years ?
    Anyway the programme was great, very informative, I’m going to watch the women’s World Cup on tv for sure and I will now follow with great interest and pride the journey of our women’s Scotland football team.
    Absolutely smashing stuff well to you all.

  356. Ian Brotherhood says:

    The idea of anyone being a SNP supporter and a monarchist is one that I cannot process.

    Just thought I’d share that with ye’s all…


  357. CameronB Brodie says:

    Silly me, I wasn’t being too busy earlier, I triggered a word filter.

    Explaining gender violence in the neoliberal era

  358. Liz g says:

    Capella 8.50
    Well if this isn’t sorted before 2021,that Census leaves a lot of scope for Women to mess with the results as a protest?
    The expense of it alone should get their attention!

  359. Cactus says:

    Dig deep people

    There’s gold in them hills

    Them Scottish hills

    THIS is gonna get messy…

    Wur ontae ah promise

  360. george wood says:


    It was mentioned in the Scotlands Future document.

    “557. If Scotland votes No, will there be another referendum on independence at a later date?
    The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence.

    It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity. This means that only a majority vote for Yes in 2014 would give certainty that Scotland will be independent.”

    I don’t know why some people on here don’t like it when they are reminded about what we actually said about this topic in Indref1.

    I was annoyed with the Yes campaign for pushing the once-in-a-generation idea as as far as I could see we were not winning Indyref1 and all this was going to do was to hang a millstone around the SNP for the possibilty of another referendum.

    Life would have been much easier for NS if this had not been said.

  361. Golfnut says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood.

    I don’t think I would describe myself as a monarchist, but I firmly believe Scotland should remain, at least till negotiations are completed and compensation agreed and honoured, the oldest surviving Kingdom in Europe. Sovereignty, both individual and collective. The Crown and Scots Constitutional law are Scotland’s big guns. Westminster has spent nearly 300 years undermining Scotland’s position within the Union, but they are subject to Scots Constitutional law every bit as much as English law. Westminster, HM gov, military, civil service all come with our legal jurisdiction.

  362. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Golfnut –

    Noted, cheers.

    Wasn’t having a go.

    Just find it genuinely perplexing.

    I can appreciate there are pragmatic reasons for keeping The Firm on-board until the details of the separation are thrashed out, but it’s just such a pity we didn’t decommission them along with the royal ‘yacht’ back, whenever it was, twenty-odd years ago.


  363. Lenny Hartley says:

    George Wood, the clue is in the view of the current Scottish Government, that Government was replaced in 2015.

  364. Lenny Hartley says:

    George Wood sorry type shpuld be 2016 not 2015

  365. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ian Brotherhood says: 31 May, 2019 at 9:08 pm:

    … The idea of anyone being a SNP supporter and a monarchist is one that I cannot process.”

    Have you forgotten, Ian, that in Scotland the Queen of Scots, is the subject of the legally sovereign people while in England, Wales and N.I. the people are the subjects of the legally sovereign monarch?

    Although, in practice in the English kingdom, the monarch, while legally sovereign must legally delegate her sovereignty to the Parliament of England.

    Their problem is that there has not actually been a legally elected parliament of the English Kingdom since 1707.

    Westminster has actually been operating illegally since 1707 as the de facto parliament of England but there has been no members of an English parliament.

  366. Cactus says:

    Them hills, like, Wingers of oor ’19

  367. Petra says:

    I’ve already had my say on this subject on the ‘One week on the war on women’ thread and I’m in a rush right now but reckoned these links may be of interest. Maybe?


    Gender or sex? Folks, such as Professor Rosa Freedman, talking sense. Well worth listening to.


    ‘Reading professor reveals shocking abuse for views on gender identity.’


    ‘Development of consultation on reform of Gender Recognition Act 2004: FOI release.’


    ‘Transgender Rights in the United Kingdom and Ireland: Reviewing Gender Recognition Rules.’

    …”One possibility is to enact a third or ‘X’ gender marker, which accommodates persons who do not/cannot self-identify as a man or woman. In many ways, this may be the optimal solution – and it is a result for which a number of non-binary or non-gendered persons are currently litigating in the UK and Irish courts. ‘X’ gender markers provide individuals with official recognition, but also exempt them from having to embrace traditional male or female status.”..


    ‘Legal Gender Recognition in Ireland.’

    ..”International Pressure:- Beyond Irish borders, the Government faced pressure from Europe on this issue. In 2012, following a trip to Ireland, the Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights, Nils Muižnieks, wrote to Minister Burton to highlight the lack of legal recognition of trans people. He expressed concern that no clear timeline was provided and stressed the importance of self-determination and the right to family life within the legislative framework.”..

  368. Petra says:

    Ooops in ‘moderation’ so breaking down.


    I’ve already had my say on this subject on the ‘One week on the war on women’ thread and I’m in a rush right now but reckoned these links may be of interest. Maybe?


    Gender or sex? Folks, such as Professor Rosa Freedman, talking sense. Well worth listening to.


    ‘Reading professor reveals shocking abuse for views on gender identity.’


    ‘Development of consultation on reform of Gender Recognition Act 2004: FOI release.’

  369. Dr Jim says:

    There’s no evidence that the people of Scotland want Independence

    That’s why we’ve been voting SNP for the last 11 years they’re the largest party, the most councillors, the most MPs, the most MEPs, the Government of Scotland

    Yeah, There’s definitely no evidence Scotland would like Independence

    What there is evidence of is that the people in Scotland who say they oppose Independence don’t care enough to go out and vote so every time there are *polls* to show nobody wants it, who and where are these people because they don’t bloody vote so why on earth is anybody giving consideration to folk who don’t care about their country the rest of the time, or are considering policies too difficult for them but they’re able to articulate NAW!! as well as spitting on some clergymen

    I suppose that’s a big day for many of them, they must get a little tired having to think about coming out to vote against Independence inside of that well known and scientific system of timing *the generation*

    Bu a maan sayed iht wanced

  370. Petra says:

    ‘Transgender Rights in the United Kingdom and Ireland: Reviewing Gender Recognition Rules.’

    …”One possibility is to enact a third or ‘X’ gender marker, which accommodates persons who do not/cannot self-identify as a man or woman. In many ways, this may be the optimal solution – and it is a result for which a number of non-binary or non-gendered persons are currently litigating in the UK and Irish courts. ‘X’ gender markers provide individuals with official recognition, but also exempt them from having to embrace traditional male or female status.”..


    ‘Legal Gender Recognition in Ireland.’

    ..”International Pressure:- Beyond Irish borders, the Government faced pressure from Europe on this issue. In 2012, following a trip to Ireland, the Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights, Nils Muižnieks, wrote to Minister Burton to highlight the lack of legal recognition of trans people. He expressed concern that no clear timeline was provided and stressed the importance of self-determination and the right to family life within the legislative framework.”..

  371. Terry callachan says:

    George wood your post at 9.25pm 31st May

    What nonsense .
    You still pushing that “once in a generation” “ once in a lifetime “ nonsense ?
    From the time you are born you change your mind about things ,learning about things around you often causes a change of mind but other things do too, it’s just how life is.
    You know this already.
    But you apply your different take on it just for Scotland ?
    Nothing was ever decided about future referendums on Scottish independence same for elections circumstances change and when they do elections referendums etc are brought forwward.

  372. Robert Peffers says:

    @george wood says: 31 May, 2019 at 9:25 pm:

    ” … Life would have been much easier for NS if this had not been said.”


    Referendums are not against ANY law under either Scottish or English law and there is no such thing as a United Kingdom Rule of law. Thus anyone or any organisation can hold a referendum.

    Now, just in case you did not understand that. Let me further add this little snippet.

    Under Scots law, and the Westminster Supreme Court has acknowledged the Scottish Claim of Right, if the legally sovereign people of Scotland decide ANYTHING then it is law because they are sovereign.

    We do not need Westminster’s permission to hold a referendum and the result of any referendum is law under independent Scottish Law.

    Now guess where those legal facts are taken from?

    The Treaty of Union and If Westminster were to attempt to claim otherwise they are illegally breaking the Treaty of Union and that means the Scots can simply negate the Treaty and end the Union

    End off.

  373. Cactus says:

    If YE want some fun…

    Sing oblaladeela


  374. Dr Jim says:

    Carwyn Jones ex Wales FM agrees with and supports Scottish Independence

    Nicola Sturgeon’s Twitter!

  375. geeo says:

    Robert peffers@9.49pm

    I would never dream of speaking for you, but what you are basically saying is: Betty owns the English people (and Wales/N.I.) however, Betty is OUR beeatch !

  376. george wood says:

    @Lenny Hartley

    Yes, if you take that in isolation, but if you add in what was being said by Yes campaign leaders the message was it was to be a once-in-a-generation thing.

    It would have been better, if they had said that it was upto the Scottish people if there was to be another referendum or not.

    NS has two millstones around her neck, one being this and the other being the opinion polls still showing a pro Union majority.

  377. geeo says:

    george wood@9.25pm

    Be honest now, are you being paid to post that pile of crap ?

    Bravo if you are, your handlers must be thicker than you .

  378. Lenny Hartley says:

    George Wood, i will spell it out once more, “in the view of the current government”

  379. Robert Peffers says:

    @geeo says: 31 May, 2019 at 10:13 pm:

    ” … I would never dream of speaking for you, but what you are basically saying is: Betty owns the English people (and Wales/N.I.) however, Betty is OUR beeatch !”

    Yup! And here it is, black upon white from the Declaration of Arbroath:-

    “Yet if he should give up what he has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own right and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. “

    Here they are referring to King of Scots Robert Bruce but it sets the law of Scotland and establishes that under Scots law the people have right to drive out any monarch who does not defend the sovereign right of the people. There is one small flaw in this but, because the people are sovereign, they can change anything if a majority, or their chosen delegates, wish to change it. This is that they replace the unsuitable monarch. They could simply do without a monarch or elect a president instead of a royal.

  380. manandboy says:

    Brexit, let’s face it, is a road to nowhere. And, there’s no turning back. Yet Brexit has a huge bearing on the progress of Independence. A resolution is, as yet, invisible, much to the consternation of the Yes movement. But this is the reality of our situation, and it demands virtually unlimited amounts of patience, of which we are seemingly, in short supply. It is truly a waiting game for Scotland.

  381. galamcennalath says:

    Jeez, everything the BritNats said before and after IndyRef1 has turned out to be absolute bullshit … lies, fake promises, false offers, fanciful predictions, .

    Four very long drawn out years later, where a very great deal has changed, BritNats draw attention to a YES-side phrase here and a statement there and tell use they were solemn promises we mustn’t break.

    Encyclopaediae could be filled with their subterfuge, U-turns, and duplicity. And yet we are being to told to stick by a few opinions as if they were commandments.

  382. Robert Peffers says:

    @george wood says: 31 May, 2019 at 10:16 pm:

    ” … Yes, if you take that in isolation, but if you add in what was being said by Yes campaign leaders the message was it was to be a once-in-a-generation thing.”

    Oh! For heaven’s sake, George, put some thought into what you claim. In the first place the SNP were/are not the leaders of the YES campaign. The YES movement just suddenly morphed out of groups all over Scotland. That was the most wonderful thing about it – it was a spontaneous movement of the people and it had no actual single leader.

    The SNP are the elected representatives of the people and the SNP chose their leaders but they did not lead the YES movement they led the Scottish Government’s campaign.

    In any case it doesn’t matter a damn because the people of Scotland, all of them not just the independence supporters, are legally sovereign. Scottish and English Law are legally independent and there is no such thing as a United Kingdom Rule of Law.

    The people being sovereign means their word is law and they can change it at will. Strangely enough English law is the word of the monarch of England but in 1688 that law changed. While still maintaining the Monarch of England as sovereign they made the monarch of England legally delegate their sovereign powers, (the divine right of Kings), to the parliament of England but that does not apply to Scotland’s law.

    Now get this, on 30 April 1707 the English parliament went into permanent recess and has never sat since. That means Westminster is the United Kingdom Parliament but is devolving English sovereign powers down to Wales, N.I. and the only United Kingdom Partner to England in the United Kingdom – that means Westminster is actually only acting as the de facto Parliament of England and that is illegal.

    Now either just give up this rubbish you claim or prove my arguments wrong. Go on I dare you.

  383. galamcennalath says:

    Brexit. Mark Harper has been Conservative MP for MP Forest of Dean since 2005 is currently a candidate for the leadership of the Conservative Party. In his ‘sales pitch’ he states … “We must go back to Brussels and open real and transparent discussions to change the backstop. “

    What can you say? That he hasn’t been keeping up?

    There are three choices – no deal, THE deal, or no Brexit. We are going to get weeks/months of Tory hopefuls telling everyone that they can renegotiate. Mind you, most of the voting members seem to just want ‘no deal’.

  384. HandandShrimp says:


    Alex Salmond said that in his opinion it was a once in a lifetime opportunity. It was not something that was said often in the two year campaign and I don’t recall anyone in the Yes campaign (Blair Jenkins etc) saying it all.

    The No campaign have clung to Alex’s observation like a drowning man to a straw ever since Cameron upset the apple cart with the Brexit mess. Prior to Brexit an indyref2 rerun didn’t seem likely. It was internal Tory Party dysfunctional infighting that opened the door. No amount of pithy moaning “but Alex said” is going to shut the door. A soft Brexit whereby we stay in the CU and SM might just about do it…but that might finally rip the Tory Party in two.

  385. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    So what if somebody said it was aonce in a generation opportunity?
    It was never SNP policy and was never offered as such.It was a conversation and SNP policy as contained in the manifesto long after that conversation said something entirely different. As circumstances changed our position changed.
    It’s called politics.

  386. Thepnr says:

    “Patience is power.
    Patience is not an absence of action;
    rather it is “timing”
    it waits on the right time to act,
    for the right principles
    and in the right way.”

  387. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 23:11,

    Yes, I caught Harper claiming this very thing roday on the lunchtime R4 news (aka. The English Home Service). This exceptionalist delusion is extraordinarily persistent – a kind of Tory political Japanese Hogweed – which will only finally die out, I suppose, when the next PM’s boat ends up the same proverbial creek as Mayhem. After several further precious months have been fruitlessly wasted.

  388. Capella says:

    @ George Wood – We’ve changed our mind.

  389. Capella says:

    Hi Thepnr -great to see you back and with a wise comment too. 🙂

    @ Petra – thx for the links. Will read them tomorrow.
    I spent the evening watching the excellent film on BREXIT filmed from Guy Verhofstadt’s point of view. Shows what a shower of incompetents Theresa May’s government is (I nearly said was but she’s STILL THERE). Unbelievable, but funny too.
    It’s on Youtube but you should watch soon as it tends to disappear for copyright reasons.

  390. CameronB Brodie says:

    Folk tend to want to do the right thing and generally aren’t intolerant of Others, apart from the overly ‘socially conservative’. Saying that, gender and race equality aren’t widely discussed issues, as most folk don’t have the time to consider the global effects of their actions. Folk are generally getting on with the day-to-day and although aware of “distributive justice”, most are at a loss when trying to explain why the 1% keep getting richer while they are standing still, at best. Fortunately gender provides a particularly powerful lens to examine the workings of neo-liberal capitalism through.

    Women, Poverty Policy, and the Production of
    Neoliberal Politics in Ontario, Canada

    This article contributes to our understanding of the production of neoliberal policies and political culture by offering an anthropological analysis of women, poverty policy, and Third Way politics in Ontario, Canada. After tracing the history of neoliberal politics globally and in Ontario, I consider two examples of women’s attempts to shape poverty policy drawn from ethnographic research in the legislature.

    The first centers on a social assistance recipient who was unexpectedly thrust into the media spotlight, thus given a chance to speak publicly about Ontario’s welfare policies. The second focuses on a consciously planned challenge to policy by a coalition of feminist researchers and frontline
    workers. These cases illuminate the challenges facing
    feminists who seek to shape Third Way government policy, as
    discussion of gender and socioeconomic inequality is actively
    avoided by politicians, and women’s experiences of poverty and demands for action are ignored, obfuscated or re-packaged.

    KEYWORDS women, poverty, policy, neoliberalism, feminism,
    Ontario, Canada, Third Way, political culture, domestic violence, and welfare

  391. Cactus says:


    Nicola has called it already like


  392. Cactus says:

    Fuck everything

    Get busy with it Scotland

    Aye swore

  393. carjamtic says:


    Yer back


  394. Graf Midgehunter says:

    @ Capella

    “I spent the evening watching the excellent film on BREXIT filmed from Guy Verhofstadt’s point of view. Shows what a shower of incompetents Theresa May’s government is (I nearly said was but she’s STILL THERE). Unbelievable, but funny too.”
    I watched the German version a few weeks ago on German telly but couldn’t find an English version to post on Wings..!
    Thank you, thank you…….

    This is an eye opener for anyone (yoons/brit nats) who thought that WM was a diplomatic giant of the world.
    The EU had profis who knew exactly what they were doing.

  395. Petra says:

    WGD:- ‘Wee Ginger Dugcast – 31 May.’

    ‘In this week’s Wee Ginger Dugcast myself and National editor Callum Baird discuss the EU election results and what it tells us about the state of the UK.

    Also on the agenda is Labour’s civil war, the Bill facilitating an indyref and an update on that vital political issue … the bins in Barlanark.

    PS. We regret to inform listeners that we failed to seek permission from Sajid Javid for this podcast to be posted. We can only apologise.’


    LOADS to check out on here.

    Professor John Robertson:-

  396. Robert Louis says:

    It would matter not one jot, if Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and the entire YES movement had said the last indyref was “once in a lifetime’ or similar. Why does it not matter? Simple, because we live in a democracy. If the people of Scotland elected a party to hold a referendum, then that is what happens. What a person or several people have said about it is irrelevant.

    If David Cameron said in 2013, that income tax cannot be raised for another lifetime, could he be held to that? No. Could any democratically elected government be held to it? No. The same applies to all democratic governments, otherwise people could not choose a new direction for the politics of their country.

    This is actually an important point. You see, it is not for a single person to say a referendum (or any other policy) can NEVER be held, simply because they said so in 2014.

    Alex Salmond could have said it 100 times, and it would make no difference. He isn’t First Minister, and it isn’t his Government that has been elected.

    So, in short all this fluff from opponents of independence, is just errant nonsense. It is schoolboy politics. I’m not sure why indy supporters even give it the time of day. It’s obviously baloney of the very highest order.

    The Scottish Government was elected to hold an indyref when circumstances change – and they already have, many times over. No further ‘approval’ is required, not even from that arrogant pr*ck Sajid Javid.

  397. Joe says:

    To those it concerns:

    In a free society I have the right to be wrong and I have the right to express it. Regardless of offense taken. Just 2 years ago many of you would have called someone ‘transphobic’ for saying the things that are common now on this comments section.

    Take this lady for instance:

    You and I MUST be able to speak what we think regardless of ‘offence’. We must also do it regardless of the totalitarians who would ‘report’ us also to higher authorities (not looking at Geeo).

    This is the tip of the iceberg. Your children are next.

    So your job will be on the line? What about your ability to use banks (yes, people with the wrong opinions are losing banking functions). People are already losing the use of social media for wrongthink.

    This is just 1 facet of a global agenda, and yes the EU and the new SNP are in on it. All the while people who speak up against it are called ‘fascists’ and ‘nazis’ as well as all the other lefty shame-names which justifies stigmatization, dismissal and even violence.

    Time to look in the mirror folks and ask yourself what is really important and to educate yourself on whats going on. Oh yes – turn off the fkng TV.

  398. Joe says:

    Just so nobody takes me for a biased yoon – yes Westminster also

  399. Breeks says:

    Capella says:
    1 June, 2019 at 12:01 am

    I spent the evening watching the excellent film on BREXIT filmed from Guy Verhofstadt’s point of view. Shows what a shower of incompetents Theresa May’s government is (I nearly said was but she’s STILL THERE). Unbelievable, but funny too.
    It’s on Youtube but you should watch soon as it tends to disappear for copyright reasons.

    Started watching that… thoroughly excellent, even though I’m only 12 mins in and have to go to work.

    I had no idea the EU Parliament, who would have to ratify Michel Barnier’s deal with the UK, had to lobby hard to secure a roll in the Brexit negotiations. They were successful. Scotland, a sovereign nation, were not…

    I look forward to the rest of this, but it might be hard on the spirit to do so. Scotland had EVERYTHING in common with EU Parliament prior to Brexit Negotiations. Scotland should NEVER have been excluded, so how and why were we?

    When do we Scots stop reacting with tacit indifference to this never ending litany of grievous subjugations and unconstitutional injustices and inequities? Why didn’t we get angry? Why didn’t we say, “go ahead if you must, but exclude Scotland and we will not be bound by your terms”? Oh right enough, Mike Russell reckoned we’d “given up” our Sovereignty….

    Our battle isn’t in Brussels or London. Scotland’s battle is here, in Scotland, in each of our heads. We Independentists all want Independence but we have literally no clear grasp of the critical path to achieving our objective.

    We ARE a sovereign Nation of ancient standing, in a bipartite Treaty of notionally “voluntary” Union, but currently being manipulated by indoctrination and flagrant abuse of that Union to suffer an act of subjugation being brought down upon Scotland to its serious disadvantage, and contrary to the settled will of the sovereign majority. What part of that requires a referendum???

    Dammit. I’m late now. Grrrr.

  400. Capella says:

    @ Breeks – we’re going to make a decision on BREXIT in 2020. Had we been genuinely involved in the decision making there would be the softest of BREXITs and little change of circumstance. As it is, the UK negotiators’ sheer arrogance has so far given us our greatest opportunity for independence. The new Tory PM will seal the deal!

  401. Willie says:

    Here are five things that we can talk about. But could they cause offence to our very important, sensitive, and utterly important trans community. I hope not.

    1 Transport
    2) Transubstantiation
    3) Transmogrification
    4) Transfiguration
    5) Transmission

    Transport of the trans. Transubstantiation for trans. Transmogrification of trans. Transfiguration for trans. Transmission of trans.

    And when can we anticipate trans approved foodstuffs certified to be neither male or female. Certified trans could be like certified halal or certified kosher. This I think is an important issue. A very important issue. We should get on to it right away. Our trans will depend on it.

    Otherwise, Brexit, the proclamation of Farage or Johnson as our new leader, the destruction of our economy, or continuing austerity can all wait.

    All hail the trans!

  402. Breeks says:

    Capella says:
    1 June, 2019 at 10:13 am

    @ Breeks – we’re going to make a decision on BREXIT in 2020.

    Slight elephant in the room there…

  403. geeo says:


    You were reported for ISLAMOPHOBIC comments, so do not even try get all self righteous, you utter bigot.

  404. Dan says:


    Please, please PLEASE try and understand; THERE IS NO SUCH COUNTRY AS ‘HOLLAND’. Are we in England?

  405. Joe says:


    Thank you for proving my point, better than I could have with any amount of paragraphs.

  406. geeo says:

    Crack on Joe, you got a free pass.

  407. CameronB Brodie says:

    Joe @8:42
    I absolutely agree that freedom of speech is essential but that dosn’t include hate speech. I was picking you up what look uncannily like coded racism. Remember, I know a bit about critical discourse analysis.

  408. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s one for Conservatives out there who might think it logical to tolerate the far-right and embrace cultural insularity, in the face of zombie neo-liberalism (see the full-English Brexit).

    Neoliberalism and the Far-Right: A Contradictory Embrace


    This article examines the contradictory relationship between neoliberalism and the politics of the far-right. It seeks to identify and explain the divergence of the ‘economic’ and the social/cultural spheres under neoliberalism (notably in articulations of race and class and the ‘politics of whiteness’) and how such developments play out in the politics of the contemporary far-right.

    We also seek to examine the degree to which the politics of the far-right pose problems for the consolidation and long-term stabilization of neoliberalism, through acting as a populist source of pressure on the conservative-right and tapping into sources of alienation amongst déclassé social layers. Finally, we locate the politics of the far-right within the broader atrophying of political representation and accountability of the neoliberal era with respect to the institutional and legal organization of neoliberalism at the international level, as most obviously highlighted in the ongoing crisis of the EU and Eurozone.

    Keywords capitalism, class, fascism, international political economy, neoliberalism, race

  409. CameronB Brodie says:

    Still not convinced the full-English Brexit is the articulation of Britain’s colonial legacy and the latent racism in English culture? Brexitania is intended to whitewash Britain’s colonial legacy, so that far-right racists don’t feel culturally threatened in an ever shrinking Thatcherite economy.

    Racism and Far Right Imaginaries Within Neo-liberal Political Economy


    This article focuses on the connections between neo-liberalism and the politics of the far right through the prism of race. Contesting the claims of neo-liberal theorists and politicians as to its ‘post-racial’ character, it seeks to both historise the significance of racism within neo-liberalism through its connections to liberal political thought and practice over the longue durée and examine the relationship between neo-liberalism and far right politics.

    It does this through (1) highlighting the political significance of the far right in securing the electoral-political hegemony of neo-liberalism within Britain and the United States since the early 1980s; and (2) the way in which the socio-economic insecurities produced by neo-liberalism have helped to provoke far right responses as an alternative form of racialised moral economy. Consequently, while the relationship between the far right and neo-liberalism is contradictory, racial signifiers and racism have provided an important means through which such contradictions have been eased.

    KEYWORDS: Neo-liberalism, far right, liberalism, capitalism, race, racism, class, democracy, Britain, the United States

  410. Joe says:

    CameronB brodie

    (im sorry this is off the transgender topic but it must be answered)

    Conflating religion and race is a tactic used to stop critical thought on religion. Its dishonest and is another tactic to shut down free discourse. Just like criticizing feminist theory is ‘misogynistic’. 2 completely different things conflated to shut down criticism.

    If the bible belt in the U.S was to start coming to Europe and pushing for bans on abortion, loose gun laws and there was a increase in shooting deaths because of it what would you say to someone who called you ‘racist’ and ‘anti-white’ for criticizing it? They’d be insane.

    Oh but wait…its people with a ‘progressive’ education that decide what can be conflated and what cant (such as race and religion) they also get to infer what words others really meant AND what is behind those words.

    Good luck arguing the transgender lobby when they are using your own thinking from the same kind of education against you, where supporting womens rights will be the exact same as being ‘transphobic’. You wouldn’t want to be a giant evil bigot now, would you?

    You starting to see a pattern here?

  411. Cactus says:

    Afternoon carjamtic, last night was SO much FUN!

    Tis mah mates birthday today and the bbq is NOW on

    Okay d’s, time to check out the wrecking ball…

    (aye, there be gems in them Scottish hills of oors)

  412. CameronB Brodie says:

    I recognise reactionary, right-wing, populist, xenophobic discourse when I see it.

    “Well, heres some brutal truth for the ladies out there: your problems, thanks to the PC brigade, have only just begun. Just wait til theres enough adherents of a certain religion in your area that wont leave you alone unless you are properly attired and the crime rate soars.” – Joe

    Review article
    Between neoliberalism and nationalist populism: what role for the ’European social model’ and social quality in post-Brexit Europe?

    This article investigates the idea of ‘the social’ in Europe after the UK’s EU Referendum vote, with reference to the ‘European social model’. It is argued that the key drivers of the vote outcome did not feature in the referendum campaign but are features of longer running and deeper fractures in both British and wider European society. Especially, the lack of response to societal problems,the downplaying of individual participation, and a crisis in democracy created by an increasingly neoliberal direction within an EU concerned with austerity and social control, contrary to the values of the ‘European social model’ (Walker, 2005).

    In the absence of action for better ‘social quality’, this overall neoliberal direction has also weakened the progressive and integrative potential of social policy. The result is the regressive nationalist populist backlash against neoliberal technocracy. Instead, we argue that answers to contemporary European challenges must focus on improving social quality and democracy.

    Key words: Brexit European social model Populism Social dimension Social

  413. Dan says:

    Joe says: at 8:42 am

    Oh yes – turn off the fkng TV.

    I did that a decade an a half ago!
    Ronnie would be mega impressed if he saw the mahoosif pile of letters from TV Licensing I have accrued.
    Can TV Licensing not be taken to court for damage to the environment seeing as their endless mailings are contributing to the destruction of rainforests for paper production.

    I see with mention of TV and that someone also mentioned critical thought upthread, I’m reminded of the tune by the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy – Television the Drug of the Nation…

    @Lenny re. Classic Vehicles

    Spoke to various Indy folk today including those with classic vehicles and one with a business specialising in classic car restoration.
    I can tell you the proposed new Transport Bill is going down like a lead ship with them.
    These folk are busy running their businesses and therefore don’t have the time to produce carefully worded emails to submit to MSPs showing their disgruntlement.
    Murdo Fraser will be loving this and yet again you have to question the judgement of those that put together the Bill in a way that deviates from the English rules relating to older vehicles.
    My pal’s business and the classic vehicle owners I know were not aware of this proposal and were certainly not consulted either, so I guess it’s not unlike the Trans Consultation process that appears to be compiled with bias which avoided or limited input from all stakeholders.
    It was also noted that Unionist minded folk are now able to have a go at these Indy minded classic car enthusiasts by saying that’s your Scottish Government for you.

    Well played, not. TBH the amount of stuff I see building up that I in my limited capacity as an activist am now going to have to deal with and justify is getting beyond a joke.
    It’s like the Scottish pastime of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory sometimes…

    And so to another tune that sums up how I feel at the moment by the banned Death – Politicians in My Eyes

  414. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Lol, trannies again.
    Roll up, roll up. Come and see Scotland’s #1 astroturf blog. The wee conman from Bath and his selective social sciences gimp are here to tell you what is PC gone mad and what isn’t. The wee man will insult you while the gimp will bend its spineless body backwards to spin carefully-chosen pseudoscience in a way that might sicken you, or even arouse you – either way, you don’t get to see this kind of thing anywhere else.

  415. Cactus says:

    Evening Dan ~

    Cheers for ur recent Mr Broonstain lyrics btw

    Ah used tae do ah little but the little wouldnae do it SO ra little got mair and mair

    We just keep trying to get a little better than b4

  416. CameronB Brodie says:

    Reluctant Nationalist
    You really are a narrow minded bigot.

  417. Dan says:


    I can’t recall how many Broon interventions ago I put them together but the lyrics are pretty much timeless.
    Talking of time. Does it move twice as quick for Broon and Blair, those dudes look like they are ageing quickly to me. Guess the constant screaming in their heads of all the tormented souls eating away at them takes its toll.

    Killing Joke – New Jerusalem

    A bit hard for some possibly, but rage at injustice does that to you.

    In Iraq, quarter of a million dead, how’d you feel about bring mislead…

  418. CameronB Brodie says:

    Reluctant Nationalist
    Social science is only part of my tool-kit, as I’m trained as an enabler of sustainable communities, in line with the requirements of the Royal Town Planing Institute. I suppose you consider the RTPI a bunch of woke gimps?

    New Nationalism and Old Ideologies

    No event in recent British political history has generated the level of despondency, exhilaration and chaotic scramble that has accompanied the result of the 2016 European Referendum. Brexit, in the course of engendering a historically unique standard of socio-political uncertainty and constitutional intrigue, tore apart the two-party compact that had defined much of 20th century politics. Put differently, the allure of nationalist assertion in the form of exiting Europe seemed to cross and confound the distinctions of class, geography and ideology that had underpinned so much of recent British, and – truth be told – Western European politics writ large.[1]

    Brexit represents, however, only one – albeit spectacular – milestone. Indeed, the issues constitutive of new nationalism, and the demagoguery intrinsic to it, only seem to be intensifying in the wake of the referendum result. These iconic issues include: the purported ‘refugee crisis’ and immigration concerns more generally; the War on Terror and cognate anxieties regarding British Muslims; the diffuse disenchantment with even just a nominal commitment to multiculturalism; alongside the outpouring of nativist concern regarding the plight of a disenfranchised ‘white working class’….

  419. CameronB Brodie says:

    Reluctant Nationalist
    Are you Joe’s glove-puppet?

    Neoliberalism in Britain: From Thatcherism to Cameronism

  420. CameronB Brodie says:

    OK, back on topic. Here’s one with Harvey Jeni @GappyTales, Joe and RN in mind. Full text.

    Desiring Neoliberalism


    The paper is based on the premise that neoliberalism is a political rationality that is not only anti-social but also requires an anti-democratic and violent form of statehood. However, neoliberalism is not solely based on coercion and force, but paradoxically also on consensus. This consensus is not least organized through its flexibilized and pluralized sexual politics.

    By focussing on sexual politics in Germany’s capital Berlin, the paper highlights that the flexibilization of the apparatus of sexuality is not merely a side effect of neoliberalism but a constitutive element of neoliberal governmentality that is deployed to legitimate an anti-democratic and violent neoliberal state.

    Neoliberalism uses the promise of sexual tolerance, flexibility, and pluralism in order to fulfill its anti-social, anti-democratic, and violent agenda. Furthermore, it is argued that neoliberal sexual politics require a rethinking of the concept of heteronormativity. Here, I propose to recast heteronormativity as heteronormalization.

    Keywords: Neoliberalism, Sexual politics, Governmentality, Statehood, Apparatus of sexuality

  421. CameronB Brodie says:

    Just to be clear, I wasn’t lumping Harvey Jeni with Joe and RN, who I think represent the opposing teams in this contest for social supremacy. Misogyny and racism can’t really be separated, see. This personality type is prone to social dominance orientation and right-wing authoritarianism.

    Beyond equality: Why equal rights are not enough
    Time to change the system, not just seek parity with in it

  422. Dan says:

    CameronB Brodie says: at 7:27 pm

    I’m trained as an enabler of sustainable communities, in line with the requirements of the Royal Town Planing Institute. I suppose you consider the RTPI a bunch of woke gimps?

    I’m possibly a glutton for punishment in asking. Please don’t add a link to an academic study like last week where I read all 16 pages, during which my beer must have evaporated because absorbing 16 pages of words killed my wee beer buzz dead.

    So… Birth rates are dropping, house prices are unrealistic for the majority based on 3 times median salary, the state cannot properly recycle the waste it generates, etc
    If that is down to following the RTPI’s guidelines then maybe they aren’t really capable of enabling sustainable communities.
    In your own words Cam, so I don’t lose tonight’s beer’s therapeutic properties, where is the mechanism failing?
    I’ve heard that the optimum number of primates for a viable community is around a couple of hundred. That number means that everyone knows each other, they all play their part in making the community function so the value and loss of individuals has a marked effect on the group in terms of their input and the emotional ties from them all being integral parts of the functioning of that community.
    Should we maybe consider listening to or emulating monkeys as they seem to have their shit together better than our current overlords?

  423. CameronB Brodie says:

    You can’t get much further from the woke world-view than critical feminist legal realism. Fact! Sex defines biological difference between men and women, which are embodied characteristics, so can’t be imagined away. Also a fact. Queer legal theory has value but opens biological women up to further sex-based discrimination. Self-ID of sex has no legal justification, IMHO. What are the civil service playing at?

    Collaborative Research Networks

    51. Queer Theory in Law & Global Society

    Organizers: Ralph Wilde, University College London; and April Petillo, Kansas State University

    Queer theory in law focuses on disrupting established meanings while bridging identity and disciplinary boundaries to shed light on the interconnected-ness of patterns of domination and the social invisibilization engendered through multilevel legal technologies and narratives. To queer international and domestic law is to be concerned with the biopolitics and governance of social life.

    Thus, this CRN seeks to examine and disrupt the (re-)production of the discipline that happens through the othering of certain bodies, identities, subjectivities and conceptions of sovereignty in medias, policy-making, legislation, adjudication (including litigation strategy) and activism, globally.

    More generally, this theoretical approach seeks to ‘queer’ law’s boundaries and binaries (‘bindings’) that serve to uphold current structures of oppression affecting queer subjects as well as all gendered, racialized, classed, sexed and (dis)abled subjects. The approach recognizes that those who are ‘bound’ through law’s ordering of subjects on the basis of legal technologies such as ‘citizenship’, ‘immigration status’, etc. are a part of these oppressive structures.

    Queer legal theory’s critical exploration of the oppressive and emancipatory potentials present in othering, ‘binding’ and rupture (through and/or in spite of law) is an important intellectual component of the quest for a more just global reality rooted in the local, the communal and the personal.

    In this CRN we actively seek broad interdisciplinary conversation, collaboration and action that challenges preconceived notions of ‘queer’, ‘the legal’, and ‘theory’. We expect to examine our own roles and complicities in structures of oppression and emancipation as well. We welcome members of all disciplines, genders, sexes, sexualities, races, religions, (dis)abilities and those of some, all, or none.

  424. CameronB Brodie says:

    And here’s one for folk who want to re-visit the political aspirations of second-wave feminism. I thought this chapter might also interest those who seek to emancipate Scotland’s political sovereignty. 😉

    Real Politics and Feminist Documentaries: Re-Visioning Seventies Film Feminisms

    Chapter Three: I Am Somebody (1969) and a Politics of Recognition

  425. CameronB Brodie says:

    OK, last on the subject. Hopefully this will highlight the links between gender equality and Scotland’s self-determination.

    The Gender of Sovereignty

    There are currently two U.S. national campaigns that appear to draw legitimacy from the definition of state sovereignty traditionally understood as the exclusive right of the modern nation-state to govern people and territories, a definition harking back to the time of the Treaty of Westphalia (1713) up through most of the twentieth century. Proponents, first, for the proposed legislation to criminalize an estimated 12 million immigrants living and working in the U.S., and second, the U.S. “war on terror” – ranging from the invasion of Afghanistan and the occupation of Iraq – seek to draw justification from these traditional understandings and to associate the measures with the securing of a “new world order.”[1]

    Both efforts view the nation–state as the primary political actor on the global stage, and define the sovereignty of the nation-state in terms of its power to control its borders, as well as the populations within and outside of those borders. While this definition of sovereignty refers to a particular genealogy of academic political science, from an interdisciplinary feminist perspective, the recent fortification of the U.S.-Mexican border appears less as a rational index of a new “immigration crisis,” and more an expression of a gendered transformation of the meaning of U.S. state sovereignty within the context of globalization….

  426. lumilumi says:

    Sorry to come so late to this comment thread. This is an issue that touches me in several different ways.

    First of all, I hail Rev Stu for highlighting this issue, highlighting the underlying fascist, misogynistic and homophobic tendencies of the loud minority of transpeople, the TRA ideology/cult and lobby groups.

    I laud support for SNP politicians like Joan McAlpine and Joanna Cherry who fight for women’s sex-based rights, such as women’s safe places (safe refuges, rape crisis centres and the like). Women who get so much dirt and hate and worse for pointing out biological facts and statistical facts and potential unintended consequences of self-ID laws, women who call for a reasoned debate and examination of the issues.

    The SNP did right to hit the pause button (though only after the cat got out of the bag). Transpeople’s rights are important, but at the expense of women’s rights? At the expense of silencing and disappearing women? Because that’s what the aggrassive TRAs (usually young men self-IDing as women) seem to be about.

    The SNP getting on this bandwagon risks alienating half of their supporters, the independence minded women. The SNP still remains the best vehicle for achieving Scottish independence but if you’re into conspiracy theories, this is a classic “divide and rule” tactic.

    That’s the political side. I also have a personal side to all this.

    Today, I went to my nephew’s high school graduation party. In my country, after 12 years of school, you get a funny white velvet cap with a black velvet rim (with a golden emblem in the middle) and a shiny black peak. The white cap. On your graduation day, it’s so pristine… Later, it gets worse for wear. Mine (from 1988) is yellowish/dirty, mishappen and a size too small.

    Anyway, my nephew did well in his final exams (exams take place in March, results come by mid-May, graduation first Saturday in June). I was so happy for him. We’d never been particularly close but last autumn/winter, I taught him to drive, spending all those hours in my stick-shift car brought us closer. He’s a great kid.

    He was a she, my niece, until she was 14. Then she became my nephew. He’s not aggressive about it, and I’ve never really discussed it with him, his parents or my parents. If that’s the way he wants to be, and his parents are fully supportive, it’s not really my place to bring politics into it. But I do think about things, and I’m sure my nephew, the bright kid, very politically minded, interested in sociological things, must be aware of the TRA cult/ideology. Maybe we’ll discuss it in a year or two. Most of all, I love him. I don’t care about gender identities, I love the person that he is. And today, he took that big step into adulthood, graduating from school, not yet sure of a university place so maybe working at the fast food joint he’s worked for a month now for a year more.

    Besides my nephew, I went and congratulated three other “white caps”, sons/daughters of my friends. We parents got nostalgic about our “white cap day” way back when. It’s all good. A happy day.

    Also, the weather now turned cool and rainy, so the young ones won’t party too hard. (Back in my day, there was a heat wave, temperature never dipped below +15 and we partied till 8 or 9 o’clock the next morning.)

  427. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, I couldn’t let this one pass without sharing. This is what happens when you apply a bit of critical feminist legal realism to the issue. As you do. 🙂

    Sovereign Invulnerability: Sexual Politics and the Ontology of R4pe

    As Rebecca Whisnant has noted, notions of “national…and…bodily (especially sexual) sovereignty are routinely merged in rhetoric and metaphor.” (2008:155) Departing from this observation, this project explores the ‘existential infrastructure’ of the ‘logic of sovereign integrity’ in which personhood is thought as analogous to jurisdiction over a bounded territorial enclosure.

    It traces the philosophical history of this logic, and unfolds the post-Heideggerian French critique of sovereignty as an analysis of how sovereign imperatives are animated by a drive to deny the vulnerabilities of constitutive ontological relation, and are thus implicated in violent cycles of disavowal and appropriation.

    It then applies this analytic to the question of women’s sexuate personhood, suggesting that while sovereign invocations are an understandable response to attacks on women’s bodily self-determination, the logic of sovereign integrity is implicated in undermining the possibility of penetrable sexual subjects and in producing proprietorial notions of sexual interaction which confound our ability to successfully prosecute rape.

    Moreover, I argue that the imperative toward sovereign invulnerability itself issues in a drive towards appropriation, and is an animating impulse of the misogynist rage and aggrieved narcissistic entitlement that propel acts of sexual violence. Sovereign logics, that is, both undermine women’s sexuate personhood and are implicated in generating the acts of violent appropriation they are frequently deployed to resist.

  428. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, I couldn’t let this one pass without sharing. This is what happens when you apply a bit of critical feminist legal realism to the issue. As you do. 🙂

    Sovereign Invulnerability: Sexual Politics and the Ontology of R4pe

  429. kestral says:

    Hi all

    Don’t often get the time to post, and after reading this thread I can see why – spent a few hours looking up some of the terminology used.

    So to throw in my viewpoint on a couple of things

    1 I disagree with jobs for the Girls, it’s no better than jobs for the Boys, So yes I can see Joe’s point about the demonisation of men – it’s not equality, it’s not what I believe woman fought for when they fought for equality

    It seems to only be getting worse with some of the extremes of metoo, I am not saying abuse of woman doesn’t happen it does and it’s wrong, but some of the metoo stuff was very wrong on the scale of Justice

    Woman require to be responsible for their actions, getting hot with a man and then having buyers regret half way through does not entitle a woman to destroy that man’s life as was seen in USA with arrests and job losses.

    20 years ago I phoned into a radio station to go on a phone in – first time only time on radio – but I felt so strongly that the fear of pedophile activity was being pasted onto every man and that was so so unfair.

    So example, my child falls of his bike and is crying, hurt, bleeding, distressed, yet males we being so attacked as possible peodifiles that we were making them scared to go help my child just because they were male – so so getting Joes feeling about what feminism has done,

    I was entitled to get my job on my ability, not the fact that i was female I am so sick of SNP jumping on this crap woman entitlement…….. debased 15 years of my life in seconds, worth nothing, because now……… I am a token female ,

    Job note for the future

    can you tell me did I get the job to please the quota or because i was worth it……….
    thanks nicola

    we are true partners with men, kinda works quite well
    feck sake they are not beasts
    they are the other sex and not the enemy

    So yes i can see Joes point on that one above about men being demonised

    – on the being forced to dress point, I was at college with a burka woman, she was quite content to wear it, she could take it off when at break time the males went out but some of us females stayed to talk with her – to her it was us western females who lost out, she was a kept woman, her husband required to provide for her, to look after her, to pay for the college, to earn the money to keep her, she honestly thought we were the nuts ones to not have her life

    Just another perspective, not saying right or wrong

    ok to main point Transwoman, soooooo who here thinks they have never once in the past 30-40 years been in a female toilet(ie aiming this question at the females) at the same time as a transwoman has been there – it was never a problem, they were and are woman to the extent that we would never know in 99.5% of the times we have encountered them in females spaces like toilets

    Totally different when it comes to other things like personal examinations and sports, I need to have the choice, as a woman to know who is examinine me, a choice, not a rejection of a transwoman doing it, i have consented to men doctors examine before – it’s really no big deal unless you feel more comfortable with a woman and if that is the case you deserve full disclosure of transwoman , and hense I believe that those transwomen who have lived for years with us as woman don’t want this and have been hijacked – they don’t attempt to take up jobs that place them in the line of fire, but we woman need to remember that as we brand them potential rapists – we need to be mindful that the vast majority of them out there had nothing to do with the attacks online shutting down women’s voices.

    So think carefully, ………we are all capable of doing wrong by our fellow human, we are all capable of being mind police to others voices, we are all capable of making judgement on what we perceive in words….

    How capable are we of walking a hundred steps in an another PERSON’S (gave up trying to remember how many new differentials there are) shoes, to feel it, to live it, to drown in its pain, to soar in its glory, who said it was gonna be easy to even understand, but walking those steps is a worthy journey

  430. CameronB Brodie says:

    I liked that sentiment but I think I recognise ‘white male resentment’ when I see it. Time for some International Relations theory?



    In international relations (IR) theory, it is important to understand that feminism is derived from the school of thought known as reflectionism.

    A feminist IR involves looking at how international politics affects and is affected by both men and women and also at how the core concepts that are employed within the discipline of IR such as war, security, etc, are themselves gendered. Feminist IR has not only concerned itself with the traditional focus of IR on states, wars, diplomacy and security, but feminist IR scholars have also emphasized the importance of looking at how gender shapes the current global political economy (Tickner, 2001).

    Therefore, the scope of traditional international relations expanded over the years in order to accommodate new perspectives, themes, and concepts. Feminism, for so long was ignored and the concept of gender neglected. Feminism in international relations rose in the 1980’s to give voice to the marginalized women. Feminist international relations seeks to create a different view and a different perspective of international relations. By introducing new ideas and presenting questions. Feminism in international relations seeks to change how the world is viewed. Another aim of feminist international relations is to give emphasis on gender in the discipline of international relations.

    However, beyond exposing the hidden assumptions about gender in the field of international relations, feminist international relations often challenge traditional concepts of gender as well. These traditional international relations concepts revolve around the assumptions that males fight wars and run states, whereas females are basically irrelevant to international relations. Feminist scholars in international relations countered that these gender roles are based in the broader construction of masculinity as suitable to public and political spaces, whereas femininity is associated with the sphere of the private and domestic (Goldstein and Pevehouse, 2008).

    Consequently, True (2001) writes that gender refers to the asymmetrical social constructs of masculinity and femininity as opposed to ostensibly “biological” male female different, although postmodern feminists contend that both sex and gender are socially constructed categories. Thus, military training for example is considered to be socialization into masculinity carried to the extremes. Feminist international relations scholars also seek to demonstrate how the entire enterprise of international relations is a gendered construction, including the processes of militarization and capitalist globalization and the practices of state sovereignty (True, 2001).

  431. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry for the poor formatting.


  432. geeo says:

    Spamalot in here today.

    Mind you, islamophobic comments are allowed, unchecked, even when reported.

    31st May: Joe, “Well, heres some brutal truth for the ladies out there: your problems, thanks to the PC brigade, have only just begun. Just wait til theres enough adherents of a certain religion in your area that wont leave you alone unless you are properly attired and the crime rate soars.

  433. Joe says:


    I think this is the basic mindset of those who have not been ideologically possessed. Which is 90%+ of the population. Thankfully. But when peoples jobs are on the line because of this kind of totalitarianism it gets very serious.

    @CameronB Brodie

    ‘white male resentment’ that’s a good one. No racism or sexism there eh? Pity double standards isnt an olympic sport…


    Be fair to the guys at WOS. They dont have your nack of deciding what people REALLY mean when they say something. You ever read the Gulag Archipelago? You should.

  434. CameronB Brodie says:

    No double standards from me, remember, I’m a bit of a post-colonial feminist, so that means I’m a bit of an ethical rationalist as well as a bit of a critical realist. I also have a background in the social and political sciences. Perhaps I simply have a better understanding than you, of how the world works. 😉

    White Man’s IR: An Intellectual Confession

    Drawing largely on my own career in academia, I elaborate on the need for greater gender, racial and other forms of diversity in International Relations. Although theories are thought to be “objective,” what goes into those theories and, in turn, their explanatory power is ultimately shaped by subjective, lived experiences. Different individuals with different life stories will develop different intuitions about how the world “works,” and thus will write different theories to capture those intuitions and, in turn, larger patterns of politics.

    I explain here how my life experience as a privileged white male has shaped the intellectual contours of my work on international hierarchy. Building from this foundation, I then explore how professional practices elevate as gatekeepers individuals with generally similar life experiences and, thus, intuitions about what constitutes “good” work in the field, which in turn reinforces those professional practices and priorities. The final section focuses on problems of eroding the disciplinary hierarchy and broadening the pipeline into the profession.

  435. CameronB Brodie says:

    I also have a background in critical legal theory.

    Reasoning from the Body: A Historical Perspective
    on Abortion Regulation and Questions of Equal Protection

  436. Dan says:


  437. CameronB Brodie says:

    This background in critical legal theory tells me that society is historically structured through legal oppression of non-whites and Others thought less than human, e.g. women. This is the historic legacy of liberal society, the structural symbiosis of sexism and racism.

    The Social Construction of Whiteness:
    Racism by Intent, Racism by Consequence


    The discipline of Sociology has generated great contributions to scholarship and research about American race relations. Much of the theorizing on American race relations in America is expressed in binary terms of black and white. Historically, the study of American race relations typically problematizes the “othered” status, that is, the non-white status in America’s racial hierarchy. However, the sociology of race relations has historically failed to take into account both sides of the black/white binary paradigm when addressing racial inequality.

    In other words, in the case of race, it becomes difficult to see the forest for the trees. Thus, in Sociology, we find less scholarship about the role “whiteness as the norm” plays in sustaining social privilege beyond that which is accorded marginalized others. In order to examine the historical black/white binary paradigm of race in America, it is important to understand its structuration.

    This article extends the applicability of sociologies of knowledge (Thomas Theorem, social constructionism) and Gidden’s structuration theory to inform a postmodern analysis of America’s binary racial paradigm.

  438. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is where an inter-disciplinary approach comes in handy. I feel I have a duty of care as an ethical citizen, would you rather I allow structural misogyny go unchallenged? Btw, what’s you position re. the full-English Brexit and how it annihilates Scotland’s AGENCY?

    The determinants of health: structure, context and agency


    The concept of social structure is one of the main building blocks of the social sciences, but it lacks any precise technical definition within general sociological theory. This paper reviews the way in which the concept has been deployed within medical sociology, arguing that in recent times it has been used primarily as a frame for the sociological interpretation of health inequalities and their social determinants.

    It goes on to examine the contribution that medical sociologists have made to the debate over health inequalities, giving particular attention to contributions to
    Sociology of Health and Illness. These have often provided a focus for discussions outside or critical of the mainstream debates that have been driven primarily by epidemiologists.

    The paper reviews some of the main points of criticism of epidemiological approaches, focusing in particular on the methodological constraints that limit the capacity of epidemiologists to develop more theoretically satisfactory
    accounts of the inter-relationships of social structure, context and agency in their impact on health and well being.

    Some recent examples from the Journal of more theoretically innovative and analytically fine-grained approaches to understanding the impact of social structure on health are then explored. The paper concludes with an argument for a more historically-informed analysis of the relationships between social structure and health, using the knowledgeable narratives of people in places as a window onto those relationships.

    social structure, health inequalities, determinants of health, context, agency, lay knowledge, narrative


  439. Essexexile says:

    If a transwoman is injured after slipping on the wet floor in a female changing room and sues the leisure centre’s owners, which branch of feminism within the Scottish legal profession gets to decide whether she should have been in there in the first place.
    I’ll have a tenner on this actually being a news item soon.

  440. Susan Johnston says:

    I won’t be reading anything WoS writes again. Cheerio.

  441. Joe says:

    Cameronb brodie

    I respect your efforts in learning. However I believe that you have been miseducated into the arms of a twisted marxist/socialist ideology that attempts to reframe history and human societal interraction into a struggle between different societal groups for the purposes of control. Yup, i know how it sounds 🙂

  442. CameronB Brodie says:

    Critical Realism is a systematic method of explaining complex causality and is grounded in the physical sciences, and do you actually believe Karl Popper and Critical Rationalism Marxist? Silly man.

    Thinking about Karl Popper and Open Society

    This is the twentieth year of the commemoration of Karl Popper?s death in 1994, the man who is the founder of the idea of open society. He devotes his lengthy book The Open Society and Its Enemies primary to the origins of totalitarianism and its critics. He started writing his book after the Anschluss, the occupation of his country in 1938, and he finished it in emigration on the other part of the world, in New Zealand, in 1944.

    The book was published by Routledge in 1945, and aroused the Western Intelligentsia?s interest after the WW2, immediately the eve of the Cold War. The reason for this attention was, first of all, that Popper drew a parallel between Hitler?s fascism and Stalin?s bolshevism, and he pointed out a close connection between the political systems of the enemy and ally in the war. On the other part, he traced the origins of totalitarianism back up to Plato.

    In 1943, while the book was in making, Popper described The Open Society in a letter written to one of his friends, Frederick Hellin, in just these terms:

    „The book is a very bold and challenging book, not so much in its style, but in its content. It attacks some of greatest authorities of all times; and not only a few of them, such as Plato, Aristotle, Hegel, etc., but in fact a great number which are not named in the table of contents.

    And it does so with a recklessness which is excusable only in view of the fact that I consider the destruction of the awe of the Great Names, the Great Intellectual Authorities, one of the necessary prerequisites of a recuperation of mankind. It is, of course, not an attempt to put anybody else, or myself, in the place of these Great Names. I rather insist that the whole bumptiousness and pretentiousness, with which the business of philosophy is glorified, must disappear.”1

    In his voyage of the history of philosophy in the book, Popper astonishingly presents that the endeavour to totally explain the world how inevitably leads to the aggressive wish of the total alteration of the world, which implies a cruel oppression.

    I. Science and Politics

    His first significant philosophical results Popper produced during great scientific and political changes, after the development of modern physics, the Great Depression from 1929 to 1933, and the fall of Weimar Republic. He worked in a unique milieu, in the capital of Austria, which even then started waking up on the ruins of Austro-Hungarian Empire defeated in the WW1.

    For his spiritual development was very much influenced by the debates with Vienna Circle, and the central topic of the debates was how to lay the foundations of scientific knowledge by which we can reply to the problem how to make a distinction between scientific and non-scientific theories. And whether how to check back the progress of scientific knowledge?

    In 1935 he published a book titled Logik der Forschung (The Logic of Scientific Discovery) in German, which instantly entitled him to be one of the founders of the theory of scientific method. In this book Popper thinks in a line that any theorem and any theory should be verified, but the statements verify them should be verified again. In this way, however, we run into either infinite regress or dogmatism in which the acceptance of unverified statements is a matter of belief or authority. That is why he rejects inductive logic, because “it does not provide a suitable distinguishing mark of the empirical, non-metaphysical character of a theoretical system; or in other words, that it does not provide a suitable „criterion of demarcation?.”2

    As an inner opponent of Vienna Circle he writes that “[…] positivists, in their anxiety to annihilate metaphysics, annihilate natural science along with it. For scientific laws, too, cannot be logically reduced to elementary statements of experience.”3 How can be verified then the fundamental statements considered traditionally as the foundations of science, as the building blocks of complex theories? Popper gave a revolutionary answer this question. He gave up the idea of the foundations of science, and he claimed that scientific knowledge was always hypothetic.

    However, each theory can be tested, and in this way, they can be refuted: “I shall not require of a scientific system that it shall be capable of being singled out, once and for all, in a positive sense; but I shall require that its logical form shall be such that it can be singled out, by means of empirical tests, in a negative sense: it must be possible for an empirical scientific system to be refuted by experience.”4 Thus theories cannot be a priori valid, and they cannot reach a validation by experience once and for all, but they are ready to be fallible, that is, one can point out if they are false….

  443. CameronB Brodie says:

    Then there is always the law to consider scientifically, to assist better jurisprudence.

    International Legal Positivism and Legal Realism

    1. Introduction

    The initial encounter between Legal Realism and Legal Positivism in the United States did not go well.1 During the first half of the twentieth century, Legal Realism came to dominate the legal academy in the United States. Although they shared many assumptions with Legal Positivism, Legal Realists utterly ignored Kelsenian legal positivism, seeing it as a version of the various formalisms that Legal Realism had rejected. HLA Hart’s positivism was largely quarantined in jurisprudence courses far from the core of professional training that is the main mission of law schools in the United States.

    But twentieth century Legal Realism has itself come to seem rather quaint. Its early practitioners aspired to a social scientific approach, but they lacked the requisite empirical and methodological tools. In the past decade, a New Legal Realism has emerged, and its practitioners are as a group more philosophically sophisticated and more familiar with empirical social scientific methods than were the original Legal Realists.

    Perhaps as an inevitable by-product of globalisation, some US academics have attempted to apply the New Legal Realism to international law, and since positivism is a far greater force in the academic discourse relating to international law than it is in the domestic context, international law becomes the realm in which a dialogue between the new Legal Realism and Legal Positivism becomes both inevitable and necessary….

    2.3 Legal Realism and Hartian Legal Positivism

    Until relatively recently, Legal Realism and Legal Positivism were routinely viewed in the American academy as incompatible.17 Brian Leiter has argued otherwise.18 It may be that the two jurisprudential approaches, while perhaps not incompatible, are concerned at their core with different questions. Legal Positivism attempts to explain what law is, and Legal Realism attempts to understand how judges decide cases – in particular how they decide the relatively rare ‘hard case’.19

    If that is so, then Legal Realism exists as a supplement to Legal Positivism, illustrating how law works at the margins (or penumbra) of clear legal rules whose ‘core’ meaning is routinely enforced and adhered to.20 However, some defenders of Legal Realism argue that the effect of its insights into the nature of law and legal processes cannot be so constrained. As Frederick Schauer has recently observed, ‘[d]etermining whether and when [Legal Realism’s] genuinely non-traditional and destabilizing version of law’s operation is true is an empirical question, the pursuit of which is an important part of future research in the Realist spirit’.21

  444. CameronB Brodie says:

    And then there’s the biopsychosocial model of health to consider. Put them all together and you have a legal medical model for policy analysis. What is your specific problem with this, or are you simply opposed to scientifically and legally grounded political reason?

    Biopsychosocial Approaches to Men’s Health Disparities Research and Policy

    Though a century ago the life expectancies of men and women were about equal1, the life expectancy at birth between the sexes has grown in the most recent four decades.2 In most industrialized societies across the globe, men tend to have more opportunities, privileges and power than women, yet these economic and social advantages do not translate into better health outcomes.3

    In recent years, there have been important global efforts to document the ways in which women fare better than men across a number of health outcomes4,5, but the European Commission’s report on the state of men’s health in the European Union and other efforts have been criticized for not attending to disparities among men6,7. Men’s health research has primarily focuses on the extent to which social and cultural factors shape men’s health practices and health outcomes8, but an important gap exists in how we explain differences in health among men.9–11

    Men’s health disparities are differences in health outcomes that are determined by cultural, environmental and economic factors associated with socially-defined identities and group memberships.11 This special issue of Behavioral Medicine helps to fill this gap by using a biopsychosocial approach to explaining health differences and health disparities among men in and to inform future research and policy to improve men’s health. This body of work also highlights the critical role that an intersectional approach can play in systematically moving the field forward through research and policy.

  445. CameronB Brodie says:

    And if you add some legal theory to structuration theory and stuff, you have a powerful analytical tool at hand. Is that what you oppose because you believe the ‘legal-scientific’ view Marxist?

    Theorising Patriarchy

    Subordination of women to men is prevalent in large parts of the world.

    We come across experiences where women are not only treated as subordinate to men but are also subject to discriminations, humiliations, exploitations, oppressions, control and violence. Women experience discrimination and unequal treatment in terms of basic right to food, health care, education, employment, control over productive resources, decision-making and livelihood not because of their biological differences or sex, which is natural but because of their gender differences which is a social construct.

    “Sex is considered a fact – one is born with either male or female genitalia. Gender is considered a social construction – it grants meaning to the fact of sex. Conversely, it could be said that only after specific meanings came to be attached to the sexes, did sex differences become pertinent” (Geetha, 2002: 10). Gender based discriminations and exploitations are widespread and the socio-culturally defined characteristics, aptitudes, abilities, desires, personality traits, roles, responsibilities and behavioral patterns of men and women contribute to the inequalities and hierarchies in society.

    Gender differences are man made and they get legitimised in a patriarchal society. This paper attempts to link the theoretical dimensions of patriarchy with its empirical experiences to engage in the ongoing debates and discussion on “patriarchy” which manifests itself in various forms of discriminations, inequalities, hierarchies, inferior status and position of women in society. Thus it is important to understand patriarchy in terms of its multiplicity, complexities and dynamics.

  446. SOG says:

    Sorry, I didn’t read all of the 450 previous comments.

    Bicycles offer a choice of male or female designs. Are they transphobic?

  447. Joe says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    Youtube: Yuri Bezmenov: Deception Was My Job (Complete)

    This interview with a defector from the KJB in the 70’s. If you cant bring yourself to listen to the whole thing then 1:07:33 is probably the main point here.

    In the complete interview notice how he mentions western multinational corporations (bankers chiefly) funded soviet socialism with very sympathetic politicians, academics etc.

    Today the communist toy for this is China. But the methods are the same. You’re worldview is a product of a communist subversive education system.

    This is why you can justify calling criticism of a religion ‘racist’, but make dismissive blanket statements about an entire race and sex.

  448. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I won’t be reading anything WoS writes again. Cheerio.”


  449. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ah, I see now that you’re a right-wing conspiracy theorist.

  450. Joe says:

    CameronB Brodie

    Of course I am. What other conclusion would you come to?

    But…in the case of the poison of Progressive ‘thought’ (there’s an oxymoron) test yourself:

    How many utter glaring contradictions (such as arguing for women’s rights against men in dresses = transphobia) can you handle before you have, as alcoholics call it, a ‘moment of clarity’?

    Anyhoo, enough from me. Ill leave you to use Critical Theory with an Intersectional Approach to ‘smash the patriarchy’ and ‘challenge structural misogyny’ in the same way as Don Quixote’s tilting at windmills.

    I was going to laugh, but in all seriousness – you are a victim of a very pernicious set of falsehoods. All the best.

  451. CameronB Brodie says:

    In case it escaped your attention, I’m arguing against self-ID and for the protection and enhancement of the cultural significance afforded to biological women. This action is a result of my legal-scientific perspective and a personal appreciation of social vulnerability and marginalisation. Hopefully you appreciate the clarity of that message? 😉

  452. Foonurt says:


  453. Richard Taylor says:

    I think this whole thing is based on very little. The overwhelming majority of people who describe themselves as feminist are for the rights of trans people.

    I personally know four trans people – two F2M and two M2F – and rights for them do not result in fewer rights for anyone else. There are no trans M2F’s who have transitioned to female so that they can invade female-only spaces and harass women. What would be the point? Men do that with near-impunity anyway.

    If you were to posit that people should go into the bathroom of their ‘birth gender’ – who is checking that? One of my trans acquaintances who is F2M has a beard. Forcing him to go into the ladies loo would result in more complaints than letting him use the gents’. Likewise my M2F acquaintances – who is doing the dick-check?

    The things that make life difficult for trans people, are by and large the same things that make life difficult for women.

    Stop it, all of you. Please. There is not some army of ‘trans activists’ policing all your thoughts and words. It just ain’t true.

    The sort of independent Scotland I want – and I like to believe that you want – is one where people are treated equally and fairly.

  454. RyMc says:

    Is typing on this keyboard transphobic?

    Is breathing transphobic?

  455. KB says:

    You are incorrect in describing this as male bullying. It’s nothing of the sort; it’s the radical left and 3rd wave feminism eating itself as the logical inconsistencies of their ideology come home to roost. Third-wave Feminism has embraced the trans movement and the LGBT+ categorization, so leave your faux male-bashing out of it.

    It’s all part of the same post-modern neo-Marxist religion that the left has embraced and enabled, including those on the left who champion Independence and even on this site, whereby any dissenting opinion is considered heresy.

    It began with the inability of the Left to look at, never mind acknowledge, facts and data that challenged their beliefs or goals or suggested that things were not so simple as one thing or another – things like the gender pay gap which has been dismantled time and again by anyone with a base understanding of statistics or that life choices contribute to societal gaps in earnings.

    It continued with labeling everyone on the right as “far-right” and demanding their silence because their speech was considered offensive simply because they had a different view or because they pointed things out like the above.

    It continued with the insistence of the Left, in labeling groups as vulnerable (LGBT) or minorities (immigrants) and determining that any criticism of those groups, no matter how well founded, constituted hate speech. It has never occurred to the Left that a blanket labeling in such a manner is discriminatory and that people who fall into those categories also fall into others that are also advantageous (i.e. may be wealthy or attractive/healthy).

    That’s an aside though – so the radical Left have silenced debate under the pretext of compassion towards who they perceive as minority and vulnerable groups (arrogantly so) and the media, such as this site, have been complicit because the targets to date have been those with differing opinions that are conveniently tarred as far-right in a deliberate attempt to undercut and discredit counter argument.

    Those people expressing concerns were the proverbial canaries in the coal mines.

    And now here you are; you reap what you sow. You moved the Overton window so far left and silenced debate so effectively that you are now held ransom by the rabid ideologues you happily embraced when it suited you purpose to silence those with different political views. The politicians have embraced them because for so long those ideologues have dictated public opinion, this is why the SNP are now openly advancing those causes (such as non-gendered sports days) and why you now have mentally ill people determining what is socially acceptable.

    So don’t label it as male bullying of women and don’t think for a second you haven’t been complicit in the propagation.

  456. kestral says:

    “Joe says:
    2 June, 2019 at 2:57 pm

    I think this is the basic mindset of those who have not been ideologically possessed. Which is 90%+ of the population. Thankfully. But when peoples jobs are on the line because of this kind of totalitarianism it gets very serious.”

    I totally agree, for a week now watching twitter allow “kill a terf” – but 100 times more shocking was watching how their supporter stood by and let them act like that quite happily – not once did I see them getting called out by thier own for that behaviour, any call to kill anyone is wrong, its now been removed as hate speech so you don’t see it anymore which yes, makes twitter quieter but its still there in their minds

    Not a nice look for a set of people who want to share my space

    So they only have themselves to blame for their own self destruction, and self implosion, I believe edinburgh uni has delisted from stonewall

    As a very live and let live person their screaming pressure, there deplatforming and their online behaviour is having the opposite effect of making me feel safe

    Richard Taylor “Likewise my M2F acquaintances – who is doing the dick-check?”

    Do you think that woman don’t realise that transwoman are using public toilets along side us – I personally never have a problem with it, womans toilets are all cubicles, and mostly we aren’t able to identify transwoman

    however that makes this behaviour reprehensible – Transwoman phones ferry company and says which toilets should I use, staff have no idea what she looks like and suggest she uses disabled toilet – transwoman takes ferry company to court. – She didn’t need to do that

    So if they think doing things like that are helping their cause they are very very wrong.

    And as for PRIDE – chucking lesbians under the bus big style, not a nice look for something, that I believe, was supposed to celebrate tolerance to be what you want

    But until transpeople can actually come and have a discussion rationally based on them being able to discuss that their sex and gender are different – I am not trying to hurt them, I wont misgender them, I just actually have to be able to say male body to be able to discuss the issues – (I believe about 80% don’t undergo surgery) then it’s really difficult to actually talk to people who are trying to remove the word Sex from the language.
    and who’s behaviour needs a dam good talking to by their friends and supporters, not reinforcement the their actions are justified.

  457. kestral says:

    So now to define transgender having spoken to a couple of real transgender woman online

    utter disavowment of the body you were born into, so strong that you will engage in self harm to be rid of its identifiers, you sure as hell won’t find any transgender woman growing a beard

    abjure would be another word I would use to describe the feeling (I think) transgender people feel to their birth body

    Looks like their pain/struggle has been subsumed into any male bodied beard wearing male who wishes to force another to call him she = power play misogyny, or to make it acceptable as they dress as a woman, to cuddle up real close to young woman half their age.

    my woman danger alert is going off left right and center, but not because of transwoman in my space, I now realise this isn’t trans woman doing this, they realise and can rationalise that their self limiting behavior, ie not working in rape services is totally down to having understanding and compassion for the sex they have transitioned into

    They know they still may have physical bits of them that cause females to feel uncomfortable and they totally understand and respect our feeling on that, they self limit themselves to stay out of those situation

    Huge respect to these souls, I believe this shitstorm is not in their name, they are just being used

    So this isn’t transpeople screaming – kill a terf, its just a projection based set of people who want to impose something on me by guilting me using another’s suffering whom they really care nothing for (or get caught up in thinking they are doing the right thing, the path to hell is paved in good intention)

    interesting times we live in

  458. Jan Rivers says:

    Former NZ MP and Mayor Georgina Beyer, a transexual woman is transphobic too. See

  459. Lewis Moonie says:

    And of course Clause 28 was transphobic. It talked about homosexuality, so by excluding trans people literally killed many of them

Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

↑ Top