A plan of little action
Well, this won’t take long.
The First Minister’s speech to Parliament today contained a single useful and practical step: by aiming to pass the legislation required to conduct a second independence referendum by the end of this year, Scotland will be well prepared to act swiftly in the event that such a vote somehow becomes a reality.
On how to make it become a reality, there was nothing.
The FM’s plan, if we might generously put it as strongly as that, appears to be to keep appealing to the UK government’s sense of reason and decency (stop sniggering at the back) in the hope that one more time will work where the last 200 attempts failed.
She also plans to initiate a Citizen’s Assembly, in which a bunch of people elected by nobody (but whose identities we can probably make an educated general guess at) will sit around and talk and the outcome will presumably be used to appeal to the UK government’s sense of reason and decency etc.
The meaningful effect of this will be zero. If events should conspire in such a way that the SNP can extract a second indyref as the price of supporting a Labour government (which is unlikely on several levels, but not quite impossible, as the Tories are currently imploding at speed since failing to deliver Brexit again), there’ll be one no matter what stage the Citizens’ Assembly is at. If they don’t, there won’t.
The speech was a stalling exercise designed to appease the SNP membership and Yes movement by not explicitly putting a second referendum beyond 2021, in the hope that something (such as the aforementioned general election) happens to change the deadlock by which the UK government can just say “No” indefinitely.
Crucially, no steps were announced to resolve the question of whether Holyrood has the legal power under the Scotland Act to conduct an indyref or not.
As such, any attempt to hold a “wildcat” one would fail, as Unionist-controlled councils would simply refuse to cooperate. Were it to be attempted in, say, June 2020, the legal wrangling over the issue would certainly extend beyond the Scottish Government’s current electoral and parliamentary mandate.
In short, nothing changed today. The SNP is still frozen in headlights, hoping for some sort of deliverance to show up from an external source. It still clings to the belief that reason alone can win the day.
“I have in my hand the findings of the Citizens’ Assembly!”
.
The evidence is that that is not the case. Theresa May does not appear to be the sort of person who changes her mind readily in response to logic. Ironically, the best hope for Scottish independence may now be Nigel Farage.
A total non event
She relies on the sheep like disciples to swallow it as something of substance , which it isnt.
As long as that membership cash keeps rolling in and the backsliding conferences rake in more money , the can will forever be kicked down the road.
Nicola is a brilliant First Minister , but no bravery on the Indy issue of
Farage, Boris, Gove, or even Theresa herself will provide Scotland with the impetus it needs for independence. It just takes time and we need a bit more patience. It’s coming.
it’s quite obvious to me that corbyn won’t give scotland a referendum either.
it’s our to take.
We have clumsily managed to allow the illegal vote idea to dominate.
We should be saying that the legality hasn’t been tested
We consider it legal if the Parliament has a mandate. And will
challenge in the court
It’s a disgrace the BBC editor can simply claim, without any nuance, a vote without s30 is illegal. Sturgeon has allowed this. Poor.
Let’s get the legislation through Holyrood while waiting for the Tories to implode. That’s quite a constructive use of time.
However, if there’s a GE then an independence manifesto would remove the need for a S30.
Not even a sign of a clue of how to proceed.
So now we know that conference will be just as underwhelming as the FM’s announcement today.
Feels like the Grand ole Duke of York all over again.
It’s on…
Campaigning has just started.
FFS!
Thanks for the post – I was going to watch, but had a feeling it’d be a fudge – what a state the Scottish Government are in, their ‘reasonableness’ and caution won’t be any comfort to the folk directly affected by the economic downside of brexit.
Any talk of letting people see, and experience, the worst of the UK is frankly immoral and I want no part in it 🙁
Obviously Revis not expecting Indyref2 any time soon under the SNP’s failed logic for obtaining one and neither should we but at the,possible, risk of opening up another can of worms would it be possible to have the third in the series of ‘wee’ books to be printed in pink? Just to prove a point to Kezia and all her two? supporters.
The only thing that I can take from the SNP is that they hope to use the Indy referendum carrot to get elected and then kick it down the road again.
Life is nothing but a great leap of faith. Time to close your eyes and spread your arms….
May willl be gone. So will the Tories. The SNP Scottish Gov can go to the Courts and get a S30 anytime they want because of the way the Westmibster unionists have behaved. Westmibster is imploding. Like rats in a sack. The longer the wait the higher support. Demographics.
Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Vote out the Unionists there will be no opposition. Get the Councils all SNP as well. Everything SNP will do it. Then call it,
Just keep on campaigning, it will happen.
Just had an email from Keith Brown asking for funding for the SNPs prospectus!!’ No way. Far better giving the cash to the Rev.
I don’t think the SNP are getting how much they have and are pissing off their support
OK Stuart, I get your sense of frustration. It might surprise you, but I share it.
That said, its all very well to berate Sturgeon with “In short, nothing changed today. The SNP is still frozen in headlights, hoping for some sort of deliverance to show up from an external source. It still clings to the belief that reason alone can win the day.” Even if you are right.
One could be considerably less than a genius to work out May will say “No” – indeed its likely that any future PM – unless there is a major change in Scottish public opinion will continue to say “No”. Lord North still gets a bad press for losing America, and there wont be many WM politicians who would want to go down in history for losing Scotland.
But what is missing from the righteous indignation of your post is what would you do? May (or whoever) has said “no”, what are you going to do? And I mean that specifically. What I dont mean are soft weasel words like “we have to resist”, “we have to campaign”. These don’t mean much.
Or do we go the road of Ireland 100 years ago? It’s easy to say “No” – it’s not an attractive step – but the historical fact remains that it’s the only part of the UK that has got out.
But in any event, having told us clearly that the FM’s statement does not match up to your hopes, what would you do?
She did do something useful, the ‘wait for Brexit clarity’ policy was overtly ditched as it had to be. It will likely be a decade or two, with hindsight that some Brexit clarity might be gained with all the lost growth, population and opportunities between now and then.
I had hoped at least for that, maintaining the policy would have been stubborn witlessness of the worst sort. It indicates that at least one neuron in the SNP brain is functioning while the rest are in a fug of feart indecision.
What happens if the Scottish Government did take the S30 matter to the supreme court, but then lost? Either holding or threatening to hold a consultative referendum, or bluffing the British Government out of it’s current No Surrender position might be a better strategy than a definitive call in court that they could very well lose.
Aw Stuart this is possibly the first time I have ever disagreed with anything you have written, does it matter if it’s this year or the year after or 2021 as long as it happens. I think Nicola is practising the six P’s Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance we need to ensure a Yes vote this time or we may not get another chance in my lifetime and I’m 59.
Getting legislation through in advance of Section 30 saves several months before holding a referendum.
Citizen’s Assembly is a good idea if we are trying to bring people together and flushes out Unionist plans, if any, on currency more powers etc. It shows SNP reaching out to others.
We can only hope that Nicola is keeping her powder dry on Tory or Labour refusal of Section 30.
Brexit is the elephant in the room and she realises that many natural pro UK voters are very open to Indy if Brexit goes belly up.
Listened to the speech, bit disappointed in the fact nothing was definitive but what choice do we have – start another party? split the yes vote? help!!!!
nikki’s speech has just gave me a raging … -semi- … whoa, yeah – I will be SO READY, in a little while, if you just let me …
I don’t like criticising the boss because she is so good
– she could be the perfect leader, in normal, peaceful times
– this is a war, a primal struggle
we need a war leader (I don’t know who – maybe nikki should watch vikings and channel some of that lagerta, the shield maiden)
– we can’t virtue signal our way to independence, or win a rigged game playing by the enemy’s rules – being nice and reasonable, lisa simpson-esque, cannot work
– just calling another referendum, at the worst time for brexit – the day before halloween, for example – would be best
– and, for the challenge
– do NOT ask for S30
– if asked about it, say it is a “formality”
then if push comes to shove, let it all be challenged in the courts, these notions of “sovereignty”
– force the constitutional arguments into the open
– force that which is “unwritten” to be finally written down, to be settled
– we need to really put the cat among the pigeons – we need to be setting the tone, leading
the great problem, as I see it, is that the UK bureaucracy is much more competent than their political masters – psychopaths and idiots, mostly; if you give them long enough, then they will sort out the problems of brexit and “make it work” … then you are in trouble – for it does not matter the amount the process has cost you, there will be wall to wall constant propaganda about how
– its all worked out alright again
– coming up roses
– will be better in the long term
– teething troubles
– Y2K non-event
and the real insult over the injury will be – they are pumping the oil like crazy, taking advantage of higher prices, to pay for it all – we are paying for our own shackles here, financing our own bondage – for once the body goes into starvation mode, the extremities are sacrificed in order to save the centre …
in 2021 the dhondt system fucks up holyrood for us anyway – some opportunities only come once
What an utter mess.
Dont be silly Alasdair, you will not be getting a coherent response to that perfectly reasonable question.
“Indy now” is a catchy slogan, but without a clear and decisive pathway, it is meaningless rhetoric.
Nicola could have announce she was going to gain indy by by personally blowing up Westminster, and people would complain about why she didn’t jump on a London flyer train and do it today.
This thread is a anti indy propagandists wet dream.
This will be my last post on this thread. We have enough negativity around, without encouraging it.
Also the talking to the other parties and the citizens’ assembly are clarion calls for strident DevoMax NOW! and Federalism offers.
Expect an absolute plehora of offers from all and sundry. What better way to kick all this referendum stuff into the long grass by the offer of Smith Commission 2?
This is my prediction.
At least Gordon Brown won’t have to look far for his next assignment.
Alasdair:
Fairly sure Stu has now said loads of times that they should be (and should have been already) testing the ‘legality’ bit to death in the courts.
Cancelled my SNP membership over this.
We are a country not a region the sovereign people of Scotland are the ones to decide when we have a referendum not Westminster I was hoping for more but we will just have to wait and see?
So have I and let Keith Brown know why
I’m not a member of the SNP (and I am unmistakably English), but it is quite clear to me that there is no possibility of Scotland gaining independence, if the SNP are not leading the charge.
It is a stroke of luck that UK’s Brexit blundering has presented us with the chance to make the independence reference question the subject of a real election.
So, if the SNP do not put indyref2 front and centre of their Euro election campaign, I shall sadly, sadly, sadly conclude that the Scots are not going to vote for independence in my lifetime.
A citizen’s convention got Scotland Holyrood. Limited self Gov. The unionists made sure it has limited powers and no FPTP to ensure control. Just out vote them. Their vote is going down, down, down. To be meaningless. The SNP Gov does everything to maintain the economy. The better off Scotland gets demographicly the closer Independence comes. If Scotland gets better off so does the rest of the UK. Total logic. Unstoppable. Just keep on campaigning. Unstoppable monmentum.
No one would be surprised to hear that I’m 100% behind what has been announced today. Quite simply there is no other choice other than to delay that bit longer.
The positives?
Well getting legislation through is almost certain to throw up a legal challenge in that it will be claimed to be outwith the competence of Holyrood to pass such legislation.
So the question there is will either Ken Macintosh or Westminster take the Scottish parliament to court once again in order to judge if a referendum act passed by Holyrood is within it’s legislative competence?
Who knows, but the statement today is a challenge to be prepared to do such a thing. The second positive is that it has now been made clear that the Scottish government intends to have a second referendum before the next election in 2021.
The negatives?
Guess we will just have to wait a bit longer to free ourselves from this unequal Union than most of us would like.
I can live with that, in my opinion what was said today made perfect sense given where we are with Brexit. Getting it wrong doesn’t bare thinking about. In it to win it.
And as a matter of interest to those who said they are cancelling their SNP membership over this , just for whom will you vote ??
There is no other party that will lead Scotland to independence – absolutely NONE.
Everyone join the SNP and give support. The more the merrier. Job done. Go through the Courts.
Hi Confused at 4:16 pm.
In your comment, you typed,
“– its all worked out alright again
– coming up roses
– will be better in the long term
– teething troubles
– Y2K non-event”,
which, for some reason, reminded me of this classic 2mins 7secs of televisual pleasure…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T72TopWbXJg
Tweet from James Kelly – Scot Goes Pop:
In what sense can the BBC be called a “public service broadcaster”? (rhetorical question).
https://twitter.com/JamesKelly/status/1121044831906795520
Interesting alternative angle on today’s proceedings here, from around 8 months ago…
https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/2018/09/07/do-you-see-it/
As far as I’m concerned, there is far too much uncertainty about Brexit for the FM to be more pragmatic or launch indyref2. The activation of A50 destroyed the concept of Britain, but it could still be revoked, though unlikely. English exceptionalism and (white) British nationalism still have a fair bit of damage to do to the Tory notion of ‘One Nation’ Britain. It isn’t time yet for action, IMHO.
https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/6544/cosmopolitanisms-social-inclusion-and-global-futures
I am assuming that the SNP conduct focus groups around the indy question and if they are all pointing to a no now and a no after a campaign then she can not really move on it. It may seem cowardly but in my opinion the next referendum really will be the last for a generation.
So you just vote for the SNP like the Labour monkey in a red rosette of years ago? No thanks, I thought Scotland had moved on from that.
Would rather no independence than be deceived by another party in Scotland.
And the Grand of Duke of York
he had 10,000 men
He marched them to the top of the hill
and he marched them down again…
Dorothy Devine at 435pm,
Yes you are right, their is no other independence party. And THAT is the problem.
I confess I’ve only caught snippets of the speech but I’m so underwhelmed by the general tone. There seems to be the play it safe tactic of ‘what will be the outcome of brexit?’. FFS stuff that, we’re now in survival mode – we are being stripped of powers, depleted of our resources, and have no political influence.
If the Euro election is more of the insipid ‘stronger for Scotland’, Scotland’s voice in Europe’ then I despair.
I sadly see a pitch for can kicking to the 2021 elections with a ‘vote SNP to secure a super duper, cherry on the top,unicorn sprinkles mandate’.
If only the the Establishment hadn’t neutered Alex Salmond we might of had a strong advocate pushing for action.
So if we cant hold a referendum without Westminster’s consent and even if we did but unionist councils wouldn’t co-operate, what the hell do we do? It seems the SNP cant win whatever they do. Shall we take up armed resistance against London rule? Break away Ireland-style? I don’t think anybody wants that.
Where are you, Alex Salmond?
I think the timing of this is very opportune, just before the conference, where, if it has not addressed the Indy movements recent complaints, they can make another announcement.
The SNP have tried to respond to the recent criticism, meanwhile told WM nothing it didn’t already know.
But it’s not enough! Indy now! Pull the trigger!!
good one Brian Doonthetoon – the tears are rolling, but its not laughter
orwell comes to mind – “a boot stomping on a human face forever”
– on scotland becomes – “a union jack waved in your face, forever, while a boot stomps you in the balls and someone nicks your wallet – forever”
one back at ya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni2wnORWB0c
Grant and Brian.
Imagine living in England. Like me. Imagine the choice of parties here to vote for. Even I, living in England, am a member of the SNP. It’s the least I can do as I can’t vote for them. I have a long term plan to return home and I want it to be to a normal self governing country. No one else will be able to do that. I can’t imagine not supporting a party that would give me free prescriptions and eye tests or give my kids virtually free uni education.
Think yourself extremely lucky that you have them and can support them and please please vote for them.
How would it have been if King Robert, before Bannockburn, had ridden out on his light steed to the English and pointed out to them where the pits with the pointy sticks were and where the best bits to attack the Scots with English heavy horse troops were situated? Now remember, the story goes, that King Robert was perceived to be in a weak position while on that light horse and was promptly attacked by an English knight who thought, wrongly, King Robert was in a weak and exposed position.
That did not go very well for Sir Humphrey de Bohun.
You don’t send information of where your strengths and weaknesses are before the battle starts – it might be gentlemanly but it sure as hell doesn’t win battles. In fact many battles are won by fooling the enemy to believe your strong points are your weaknesses.
Did you really expect Nicola to tell Westminster what she had planned for them?
@Confused, 4.16
Great post. The key point is
we can’t virtue signal our way to independence, or win a rigged game playing by the enemy’s rules – being nice and reasonable, lisa simpson-esque, cannot work
It is not enough to wait passively. What we need is the YES movement fully functioning again, not a Citizen’s Assembly.
Just heard a rumour that the Scotland in Union team has ordered in the champagne to celebrate ‘Grant’ and’ Brian’ cancelling their SNP memberships. Is this going to be a long night of Yoon celebration?
They may also be delighted too to be able to quote back the inflammatory language of Indy supporters exemplified here by ‘Confused’ who writes above “this is a war”. Could go down well in influencing the undecideds perhaps?
And then add to all this the reference to the FM’s speech and the term ‘immoral’ in the same few lines of a BTL comment. I refer to the contribution of Ruglonian above who although admitting not to having read/listened to the FM’s speech can still write in this context about the “.. frankly immoral and I want no part in it.”
Impatience, frustration, disagreements OK but some of this is stuff is not constructive, not helpful IMHO.
Hi Dorothy,
I won’t be cancelling my membership personally, impatient or not.
But people saying they are might not vote at all – if they feel they are never going to get what they want regardless, they may feel there’s no point voting at all
If that happens on any sort of scale, it would be very sad when you consider how engaged many people were in 2014 and the elections just after.
I think a lot of it is just impatience, though, and I can understand the impatience. If and when an actual chance for indy comes round, I believe people will rediscover their enthusiasm.
Personally, I am not enthusiastic now but would continue voting SNP while they are pledged to keep many of the good things in place, i.e. not ‘double charging’ for prescriptions, for example, that other parties might threaten if they get a sniff of power.
There’s probably a certain amount of people saying ‘cancelled membership’, who didn’t ever have one and are concern trolling, mind 😉
BBC completely failed today, Snooker on both BBC2 and BBC ‘Scotland’.Do they think we have heads that button up the back?
Then an hour long report with Brewer interviewing a ‘balanced’ group of MSPs, pundits etc. Balanced meaning Labour, Conservative and LibDem against SNP, plus the occasional Green.
One guy saying he won’t take part in consultations unless SNP take Independence off the table. How would he like to be told he cannot attend unless he takes Unionism off the table?
And it’s goodbye from me to Wings over Scotland
I just saw what you did there Rev, perfect Farage tactic
Everything has changed since 2014 but nothing has changed since 2014. At least in the minds of many residents of Scotland. That will change. 🙂
https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/1762/who-is-making-the-decision-matters—conceptual-methodological-empirical-and-applied-approaches-to-i
Josef Ó Luain
Totally agree. Being nice will never get us independence from the lying cheats in Westminster.
Nicola has no plan.
Free prescriptions, tuition fees, Council Tax freezes are temporary. They are used as sweeteners for votes. Once they are gone?
The facts are: the SNP will not go to court as they know they will be defeated.
Ffs the Party is stuffed with lawyers ( perhaps that’s part of the problem?)
They will keep begging for a section 30 or hope to prose one from a fictional labour government as art of a deal to prop them up.
When will people see the SNP have been playing them for mugs?
Vote for us to send the Tories a message, vote for us to send Europe a message!
What is the message? That Scotland is full of fools and sheep that follow the SNP to a land that doesn’t exist?
People needing a reality check.
1 We called a referendum from an impossible winning position and predictably lost.
2 It was compounded by making it clear it was to be a once-in-a-generation thing.
3 To get round point 2, NS asked for a mandate to call Indyref2 in defined circumstances.
4 The circumstances were either a sustained show of a majority of the electorate supporting Independence and/or a event of significant change such as being brought out of the EU against our will.
Neither of these events have come about yet so how on earth can NS call a referendum now?
It is the unfortunate truth that the majority of the public lack the SNP’s desire for Independence at the moment and until either that changes or Brexit finally happens we have to wait.
What people need to do in the meantime is to start changing the public’s mind by trying to persuade them that Independence is the right way forward for this country and get the polls moving.
Johnny , yep concerned trolling is exactly my view.
The other thing that irks is ‘the waiting for the firing gun brigade’ – that gun was fired long ago and each and everyone who wants independence should have been quietly getting on with the job of persuading , counteracting lies of the media , acting as ambassadors for an independent Scotland at every turn – as pleasantly as possible ( that is the hard part!)
Marches are wonderful , full of life and enthusiasm , family and friendship which gives impetus to the cause.
Nothing like a sea of saltires to lift the spirits.
Good move by the FM.
We, while we are still EU citizens, are being promised an indy referendum. This gives the EU an “in” to give the referendum their support, observers, whatever, if it happens when we have been Brexited. It also means that all the “Ex-pats” of the other EU nations will be able to vote as well and this time they’ll all be Yes to stay in the EU whereas last time they were No to stay in.
Yeeha, get along little doggies, we’re on the move at last.
Would prefer it sooner but hey let the tories elect Johnston and more independence thinking labour and others will consider enough is enough.
Brian and grant – if you don’t agree with the policies of the SNP then you must vote for a party whose policies you agree with.
Alternatively, you could get involved in shaping policy by attending branch meetings and proposing resolutions to be voted on at Conference and adopted.
Democracy isn’t for the faint-hearted.
The picture of Chamberlain is very apt. Time for a new leader I think. The primary purpose of the SNP has been lost by a few elected members and if the tact isn’t changed soon, they can try to regain it when they are unelected. Leaders have to lead, not follow Westminster.
It’s just woeful to see Nicola Sturgeon demand a second Brexit vote, but not call the one we vote her into power for.
The Brexit fog has still not disapated. To charge through the mist at this stage would be glorious but utterly futile. In fact it would be doing the BritNats a massive favour. Nothing help unite the red, blue Brit Nats like an existential threat.
Folks, we have to let Brexit run its course.
Yes TM is trying to kick the can down the road endlessly, but IMO this cannot last more than a few months, perhaps not even as long as October. The Brexit civil war south of the border is bubbling away and will soon reach critical meltdown stage.
As the rev said, we may have to depend on Nigel Farage – this could be prophetic. If this is the way the UK is going to end, so be it. The Brexit pressure ramps up and the EU is becoming increasingly scunnered.
Something has to give, and when it does the political landscape of the UK will change forever. All hell is about to break loose. To try and force an indy ref at this time would be folly IMO.
Never interrupt your enemy…..
Well, at least don’t help them out with another glorious, unsuccessful highland charge.
The main strategy as WM implodes, should be to keep the pressure on, which I think NS is doing rather well. 🙂
Change SNP policy….think not while Nicola and her husband rightly control output.
Not healthy and I won’t be wasting my time.
We need politicians of conviction like Dennis Canavan
I watched the whole 90 minutes.
By any measure Sturgeon is a remarkable politician and leader.
Carlaw Leonard Rennie Rumbles Briggs Gray Findlay Fraser Two Jobs Tomkins all got to their feet and spouted the usual ‘divisive’, ‘get on with the day job’ mince.
Legislation to hold a second Independence Referendum will go through Holyrood ‘this year’, in anticipation of a plebiscite to prevent among other things, Scotland being dragged out of Europe against the express wishes of the People of Scotland.
England will definitely say ‘No’, regardless, We all know that.
May’s government will fall as Corbyn the TIGgers, the ERG , and Farage’s Brexit lot put pressure on, and resist May’s Deal.
The most likely imminent outcome is a UKGE with May stepping down, and chaos ensuing, and a Hung Parliament, with so many warring English Brit Nat factions trying to win the Middle England We Hate Furriners vote.
Only then can we proceed with Indyref 2, without a Hung Parliament Down There’s ‘permission’.
NS took it as far as she could today.
She sucked the Brit Nats into being forced to ‘work with’ the Scottish Government’ to provide a solution for Scotland, not their Masters in England.
Stu, I’m surprised at your stance.
You sound like Neil Findlay. You offer negative feedback on NS’ proposals but no viable alternative that leads to Self Determination.
There are a thousand ways to say No, only one way to say YES.
It may well be that we hold an ‘illegal’ plebiscite, since it looks as though there will be no alternative.
But the ground work goes ahead ‘this year’, and given the chaos and hasty UKGE I describe above, the Independence Referendum will follow quickly, well before May 2021, probably early 2020.
I can wait that long.
Either Gove, Johnson, Rees Mogg will be the next PM, and Farage and Galloway will be in their cabinet.
We won’t need or seek England’s ‘permission’.
I am in awe of sturgeon’s stamina and adroit slapping down of a bunch of list Blue Red and Yellow Tory Hangers On today.
They offered nothing to a debate on Scotland’s Future; quite literally nothing.
James Kelly and Ian Gray were particularly dense and vapid.
We shall be free, and soon.
Stu, what’s your solution?
You know like the rest of us that WM and the Brit Nat Imperialists will never say Yes this time.
An armed Uprising and drive the imperialists from our shores?
She has NOT kicked the Independence can further down the road.
We lay the legislation in place THIS YEAR, and respond to the inevitable clusterfuck that is about to explode in England over the next two months.
‘We’ve got a song for that, haven’t wee, Johnny?’
Freedom.
This time, Rev., I think you have called it wrong. We laugh at May’s repeated attempts to get her Brexit deal through. Our FM knows that the next referendum when it comes will have to succeed or it’s game over. The current political landscape is so uncertain that any precipitate decision could see us in a wrangle over the legitimacy of a referendum in the middle of a `UK election or the aftermath of a Brexit crash out. It would be disastrous. Patience and reasonableness is the way forward and don’t dismiss the Citizen Assembly idea. It seems to have had an effect in Ireland and may do so here. We may have a solid core who are totally convinced that independence is the way forward but there is still work to be done to generate a convincing majority for the cause. Brexit shows how divisive a close result would be.
Come on with this cancelling memberships.
All that does is feed the Westminster Parties
And there is no support for this and SNP have peaked.
We have no other party to vote for if we wish to
End our status as a second rate colony belonging
To England.
Fight for what we want from within the party not from without.
It is my understanding that Holyrood already
Has a mandate for Indy ref 2 if we are to be taken out
Of the EU by England.
I want it made clear to England that Scots are Sovereign and we
Will be having Indy ref 2 if you force us out of the EU.
Blazing mad at BBC in it many forms not broadcasting this Live.
Radio shortbread has Hibs FC Secretary on during the announcement
Talking about her relationship with her dog?
‘Keep your powder dry Nicola’
‘Don’t tell anyone your plans…even your own supporters’
Been listening to this drivel on here for two years.
Fact: there’s no plan,
Indyref2 hinges on a minority labour government needing the snp to prop them up.
God help us and how shameful of the snp to wait all this time to ‘ come clean’
“We need politicians of conviction like Dennis Canavan”
I think Brian has just won today’s internet.
Yeah OK, after two mugs of tea and 3 or 4 roll-ups reading and thinking about the speech.
@Rev – first for you, thanks for the article, it had to be written, and I do mean HAD to be written.
As for the speech itself, it was said it was going to be inclusive, and it was that to its very last word. Must have taken weeks to be written and re-written, shortened, lengthened, changed and reworded. Probably with some drafts scrapped completely.
At its least it’s a call to action to – everybody, including the (currently) unionist parties. At its most, it says, well, nothing in a way. I’ve skimmed a few articles on it, and they miss the point. Or, to be more precise, they miss the point of the many points. And in fairness, being too partisan in people’s views makes them incapable of seeing the points. Or the point of the points. You have to be “empathic” to get a lot of them.
If I was to make a speech as a punter, it’s be like, and apologies in advance to the sensitive of ear: “I want Independence, and I want it fucking now”.
But she’s the FM of all of Scotland, and her speech was indeed, 100%.
Superb Jack. Every. Single. Word.
Luigi – I agree that Brexit will have to run it’s course. Could come much quicker if Lab and Tories do a deal.
To be fair, it worked one time out of the last two 😀
I agree with previous posts that the Scottish government should have been exploring options for the inevitable refusal over Section 30, and it should be said that there have been rumblings that this has indeed been going on. But you could hardly expect her to say anything other than a Section 30 would be required. Until someone comes up with a definitive (in law)ruling then that is in fact the case.
And, as much as I’d like to say that there is a consensus for independence in the country, given all the nonsense Brexit has brought, and the complete lack of truth of any of the promises from pre the last independence referendum, the fact is that no polls have shown a majority for independence in the last year. Sadly.
I think she is banking on the SNP increasing it’s seats at the next election as voters punish the other parties for their interminable Brexit rubbish. Or maybe on May getting kicked out of the leadership role and a hard Brexiteer getting the post – in the hope that they might be more willing to get rid of Scotland, since they are more likely to subscribe to the notion that we’re a nation subsidised by Westminster. Certainly that’s what a lot of those English who voted for Brexit already think.
If anyone doubts that the Tory Party i.e. the UK government are imploding take look at this thread. Hilarious. And probably mild compared to what’s out there in the shires:
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1121053511809163265
As we see the state of the UK today, going nowhere, I am unsurprised at the reaction.
When I joined the SNP in 1966 we had no Westminster MPs, a few councillors and were ignored by London. Now we have 35 MPs, a Scottish Parliament we control and a reasonable amount of councils.
The SNP is in a cleft stick with a stubborn Tory Government which may not last.
I should be impatient as I am in my eighties; Nicola is faced with a hostile press – there is no obvious way ahead- but we just keep going. Why am I still in the SNP? If I want independence only the SNP can deliver it. Criticism of Nicola delights the Unionists.
I have had patience for 52 years – what’s your problem?
Politics Scotland this afternoon.
Now the Britnats are always lying and misrepresenting and talking a lot of crap but Christine Grahame Lib Dem MP came out with this almighty massive piece of crap – ” leaving the United Kingdom will be well nigh impossible.”
The LibDem spokesperson suggesting the U.K. Is a prison. It certainly feels like that a lot of the time. The problem is that too many Britnats seem to like living in a prison.
Tut tut. Och, it’s just not good enough, is it Stuart?
Hard to say who is the biggest ditherer, May or Sturgeon?
Christine Grahame is an SMP MSP and Deputy Presiding Officer.
If she believes that then what IS the point of the SNP?
I’m so glad I have ended my membership
@Brian
I see you complaining about the SNP a lot, and intimating that they are not actually interested in independence. Are you in the Scottish Resistance,because that’s one of their lines. Where are your suggestions? If you’re that concerned that the SNP are a front for deception, why are you not joining the party to change it or, even better, trying to stand as an MSP or MP? Or even just publishing a proper argument for your path to independence. Chucking crap at walls is easy work.
The SNP have totally changed the political landscape in Scotland. I don’t know about you, but I’m old enough to remember when the SNP were a fringe party and independence was a laughable fringe idea. The SNP changed that. We came within a few points of winning independence,something which, quite frankly, most people would have told you you were insane for thinking could happen just six months earlier. The idea that the SNP, particularly Sturgeon, do not actually want independence is right up there with claiming the Earth is flat for sheer ridiculousness.
Do I want independence? Hell yes, and I’ve been supporting, and agitating for it for decades. Do I want to sound like those tubes in the Scottish Resistance? No, I do not. And neither should you.
Just donated to the SNP
@Rev Stu…“The SNP is still frozen in headlights, hoping for some sort of deliverance to show up from an external source”.
I suspect the SNP rabbit is static in the Brexit headlights due to the complete lack of a sea change in the opinion polls in favour of Indy.
Since 2014, polls have shifted perhaps +/- 5% from the 45/55 ‘No’ result. This despite the machinations of Brexit courtesy of Farage, May, Johnson, Gove etc. which you’d think should be driving a significant number of the 62% actual, (2016), and 66% polled, (2018), ‘Remainers’ into the ‘Yes’ camp.
This hasn’t happened – and the SNP/Yes can’t seem to figure out why.
Until that Brexit bounce takes place, assuming it ever will, the SNP would be crazy to serve up IndyRef2.
Spot on jack.
@Dr Jim “And it’s goodbye from me to Wings over Scotland”
Nope. Rev’s entitled to his view, as are you. It needs both.
If you leave Wings I’ll seek you out and drag you back screaming 🙂
“.. she also plans to initiate a Citizen’s Assembly, in which a bunch of people elected by nobody (but whose identities we can probably make an educated general guess at) will sit around and talk ..”
I guess this (pejorative) description could come to pass … or perhaps not! Given that we are to have a Citizens’ Assembly for Scotland (of some sort), evidence from the recent Irish experience is relevant.
The links below are to the record of the Michael Littleton Memorial Lecture delivered on 18th December 2017 by The Hon. Ms. Justice Mary Laffoy, the Chair of The Citizens’ Assembly, Ireland. The lecture was entitled ‘The Citizens’ Assembly – an exercise in deliberative democracy’.
The lecture sets out the scope and objectives of the Irish initiative; the concept of ‘participative democracy’ that underpins it; and how the Assembly was ‘operationalised’.
The lecture can be heard at: https://www.rte.ie/radio1/michael-littleton-lecture/programmes/2017/1229/930110-michael-littleton-memorial-programmes-29122017-000000/?clipid=102691694#102691694
The transcript can be read at: https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/About-the-Citizens-Assembly/Michael-Littleton-Memorial-Lecture/Michael-Littleton-Memorial-Lecture-Final-.pdf
I’m surprised at some of the negativity being expressed towards the FM’s announcement.
Brexit remains mired in uncertainty so the FM’s position must remain flexible in the options available to her. She certainly cannot name a date.
Nevertheless, she has made a concrete and significant move by her intention to introduce and pass the legislation necessary for a referendum. It has also helped her regain the initiative to some extent rather than continuing to wait on Westminster.
The proposal to engage with all the Holyrood parties on proposals to enhance devolution is a welcome challenge for the opposition to actually come up with their own initiatives rather than simply snipe at the government and to make clear what aspirations they actually have for the parliament short of independence.
The citizens assembly has the potential to do something positive but nothing is contingent upon its success.
Through the three initiatives, the FM is engaging her own party, the parliament as a whole and ‘civic Scotland’.
Only one party is positioned to lead Scotland to independence, that’s the SNP. I’m not about to vote for any other party, if the unionists think I can be persuaded to change they are quite wrong.
I want to be a citizen of an independent Scotland and personally I want to retain my EU citizenship. I won’t achieve this by voting for a unionist party and I have issues with the Greens, although I am very grateful for their support.
As for the Section 30, it may or may not be necessary, I honestly don’t know. But the lack of such an agreement, which is not a permission, would give unionist councils a further excuse not to cooperate. We seem to have forgotten the progress with Block Chain. If such a system can be introduced in the reasonably near future then the councils are bypassed. I am anxiously awaiting the introduction of a radical new voting system.
As a general observation, I am distressed by what seems to me to be bile directed at the only pro independence party available to us. I am a branch member, if I don’t like a particular policy or want to raise a new one, I can, so long as I can get enough others to agree.
Be positive, if you see hiding dragons, don’t draw attention to them. Present a united front against those who are our opponents.
The unionist love to devide and rule, don’t let them do it, keep your powder dry and give them no ammunition to fire at us.
Everyone’s opinion is worthy whether or not you agree with it.
I was SNP and today I am not.
I do not have the answers, that’s why I am not a politician.
Neither it seems does the SNP but they did know for quite some time that they had to beg for a section 30 order; nice of them to not let the populace know until now.
As far as I am concerned, Independence has been lost and a vote for the SNP is just a cite for them to govern and nothing less.
Given that WM will do all it can to make things difficult for an SNP Government then maybe it would be wise to place our votes elsewhere.
I have not said anything that is not a fact if you care to read back so you let me have my day and I will let you have yours
@geeo
I was not expecting Sturgeon to say pretty much what she did say – we are going to get things in order for a second referendum. Hopefully she will actually start to campaign – that seems to me the implication of the Lincoln quote. But I recognise that she has to allow May to actually say “No” to a formal request. I would hope she then has a plan B in the handbag, but it would be unwise to reveal it now.
What pissed me off about Stuart’s post is not that the argument has no basis, but that it’s all very well to make it – any fool could do that – but, if you think Sturgeon’s statement falls short then “what would you do?” seems to me the next question, which was never addressed. So @Johnny perhaps this should have been covered? Ie, if May says No, then this is what we do next. Otherwise you are falling just as short as you claim Sturgeon is.
So two scenarios then.
1)Some future would be Westminster government agrees to a section 30 as the price of SNP support.
2)The bullet is bitten and a section 30less indyref2 is held with all the divisiveness in Scotland that implies.
Eg what about those who want to vote in unionist controlled areas which decline to prepare.
Does Holyrood have the power to bypass local authorities on this issue?
The second scenario is not going to be politically or socially pretty.
And I suspect the SNP are well aware of that.
Political bullet-biting is not for the fainthearted.
The SNP are shite.
They’ve been shite for the last five years, ever since Ms Sturgeon took over.
I am on a train between Edinburgh and Glasgow after a half hour taxi journey to the station, at the beginning of which the taxi driver commented that Nicola Sturgeon had just announced that there would be an independence referendum before 2021. Noting that there had been no “that” or “thon” before “Nicola Sturgeon” I said, “Can’t come soon enough!” There then followed a conversation which completely gobsmacked me.
The taxi driver claimed he had voted for independence in 2014 but now wanted no part of it “..because of all the lies the SNP told , like “..only £200 million to set up the new institutions and this had been proved to be false so how could you trust them -their finances were all over the place.”
In the ensuing conversation, he listened to points I made but then simply moved on to make his next set of observations. These included the following –
“Yes,Westminster and Brexit is a mess, but all politicians are a waste of space: what good is independence if you are just going to swap UK masters for European masters to control your fisheries and farming? No-one wants another independence referendum; people making a fool of themselves dancing around in kilts; SNP incompetent – just look at the health service – those pigeons in Glasgow and that Tayside thing -and the transport chaos -and the schools: and they haven’t got the currency sorted -so even your mortgage wouldn’t be safe; just hitting the middle classes with their leftist policies – I’m £1500 a year worse off because they of them; and the deficit – it’s only the Barnett formula that keeps us afloat with money from the South. We wouldn’t be able to deal with a major incident in Scotland – we need to rely on the union to keep us safe.. there’s no one in the SNP competent enough to get my vote..but Ruth Davidson at least is a great politician..though I’m not a Tory…etc etc.
Now this was not a rant. It was in no way aggressive and there was no indication that he was in any way on a mission to convince. It was an extremely affable conversation which I found disconcerting. What struck me was the sheer mass and volume of unionist MSM propaganda taken in wholesale and delivered so effortlessly and with such easy conviction, particularly since so much of it is easy to counter with a few articles from Wings and John Robertson. He is not a “Britnat” (not a word I do not find helpful) but his views are definitely unionist. Perhaps it is just such a long time since I have exchanged views with someone so completely immersed in this mindset.
What I think it did bring home to me was the complete success and effectiveness of the communication techniques of the MSM and broadcast media. My taxi driver did not strike me as unintelligent – these were simply the views he had absorbed through constant exposure to them. He showed little disposition to argue against any of the points I brought up, perhaps because he has not thought about them enough. I do not think he is a lost cause but a few random conversations in a taxi will not make any real dent.
Before my encounter, I was firmly of the opinion that Nicola Sturgeon should be carrying out the referendum mandate as soon as practically possible. I do not know how representative my taxi driver is of the general population or even of the Edinburgh population. I think the desire for independence is far greater than the MSM are generally willing to admit – but perhaps that is simply a reflection of the company I keep. So perhaps but Nicola Sturgeon’s caution is a recognition that there is still much work to be done to persuade many people like my taxi driver before putting it to the test.
In any event, the Independence movement will need an effective ongoing and highly focussed communication strategy to cement key messages and information and counter the myths. People will not come looking for the information, necessarily. I am not terribly impressed with the “people’s convention approach, but I am heartened by Keith Browne’s intention to put a booklet into every home in Scotland as one strand. It is essential to find a multitude of ways of bypassing the MSM and broadcasters -as the pioneering Wings Blue book initiative did. My taxi driver needs clear and reliable alternative information.
Not even halfway through the comments yet but we have a few crackers already.
@Peter
She relies on the sheep like disciples to swallow it as something of substance , which it isnt.
@grant
Cancelled my SNP membership over this.
@Brian
So have I and let Keith Brown know why
@Brian
Would rather no independence than be deceived by another party in Scotland.
@RMF Brown
And the Grand of Duke of York he had 10,000 men
He marched them to the top of the hill and he marched them down again
Solid Indy supporters one and all. Hahaha GIRFUY.
@Jack collatin
Yup.
Brian….. I’m glad you’ve left the SNP….must have been a bummer hanging about with Competent people ! Now you can return to your British Nationalist Mothership ?
Oh dear, some on here do not like criticism of the SNP.
Maybe you should go and live in North Korea. Your ‘mind’set will be welcomed there
A referendum BEFORE 2021, could be for independence, or to repeal the treaty of union. A referendum to repeal the treaty of a union does not need Westminster permission, only the permission of the people of Scotland, who are sovereign.
Feeling foolish after all that keeping your powder dry?
Put yourself in Nicola’s shoes and lets speculate that she does have a solution to the Section 30 order (which she does):
1. Would you explain to your opposition what your approach to having a second referendum and validating it would be? NO.
2. Do you want the yes “troops” to be ready for when the time comes (Brexit decision is finally made)? YES.
She is one of the smartest strategists out there and fortunately for us she is on our side.
Only one thing needs to be devolved – the ability of the Scottish Government to hold legally binding referendums when they have a mandate to do so and at a time of their choosing. That would apply to not only independence but the EU as well. Westminster devolving some matters is largely just a smoke screen. Yes it means a better run NHS, but it’s short term. Without the ability to even choose to vote on key issues, eventually Scotland will suffer from whatever rUK decides to do. The key matter that needs to be addressed is simply – Do the people in Scotland want to be able to democratically decide on key issues by using referendums?
The FM is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The mandate for another referendum is contingent on the material change happening to Scotland, i.e., being dragged out of the EU. Thanks to Tory and general WM incompetence, no-one can even say if that will even happen.
Despite the voices on this echo chamber (together with some of the FUD trolls), calling it without public support AS IT STANDS NOW, tars any referendum with the ‘neverendum’ brush. We don’t get to run these every week, if a referendum is called then it MUST be won and won convincingly.
If we gamble now and lose – which IMO is what would happen – then we kiss goodbye to everything we have worked so hard for this last 30 years. WM will have Scotland back in its box, padlocked and chained like its unicorn, dragged to the bottom of the North Sea.
I won’t waste time with concern trolls on an internet blog, I’ll be out there talking, convincing, showing the people of Scotland why this union has never been fit for purpose.
Your work for the coming months is done Rev , you have united the Implement the Mandate mob lol
Not sure what to make of this article. It’s a heartfelt opinion piece from an unexpected source. The frustration at perceived inaction is plain to see in the Rev’s writing.
I’ve posted far less inflammatory points questioning SNP policy in the past and been stomped on by the Wings Gestapo for posting Britnat crap. Not sure what they’ll make of this either.
One thought which did occur is whether the Rev is sufficiently rested after the court case (I mean spending time away with family and no internet type rested).
Hey, the man can handle himself I’ve no doubt but us Wingers do have a duty of care here I think.
Week or two with no Wings? Just a thought.
Jack Collatin…..brilliant piece of thoughtful writing.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17594643.the-national-launches-10000-steps-independence-campaign/
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17595322.snp-launches-new-yesscot-website-saying-its-time-for-independence/
https://www.yes.scot/
Oh bugger, Indy has been kicked into the long grass along with the cans of (low sugar) Irn Bru.
Well… Like Thepnr I can see why she needs more time,although I’m not happy about the legality of Indyref 2 not being tested in a Court, as soon as.
Now that shes re-committed to Indyref 2 in this Parliament, what I took from her speech was that she was pushing for something that was IMHO missing from Indyref 1.
Which is – why should we stay…
What are the Unionist parties going to do in an Independent Scotland.We spoke about it a wee bit here,but, it was never much mentioned anywhere else.We got the politicians answer of ” I’m going to do all I can for a No win ” and Cameron refusing to discuss “life after Yes.Even the MOD pretended to not be doing any contingency planning.
If I remember right more was said about the SNP breaking up after a Yes vote. The British Unionists wouldn’t attend meetings to answer for what they would do if Yes won,they only spoke about doom and gloom for the voters,never how they would separate from London HQ control themselves!
It’s looking like Nicola is using the waiting time to head of that option by challenging them to come to the table and say what their vision for Scotland to stay in the Union actually is, map out the next vow,describe this federalism thing and then show how they intended to make Westminster abide by it.
Sell their Union to us….
She knows the Yes movement will take anymore promises apart and that non answers about what a response to any given situation (yes vote) is likely to be,is irritating the voters.
So they are being challenged to defend their Union right now,show to Scotland the bright shiny new arrangements that’s their vision for Scotland staying in the Union.
Do it now while we have the time to examine the proposals, and most importantly the failings and faults with the Union will have to be acknowledged and discussed by all of Scotland’s MSPs,as it should always have been.
There will be no pretending that everything about the Union is just fine.
I’d say we need to get onboard with this citizen’s assembly thing (what else are we doing with our time if the SNP can’t call it just yet) and help to go through exactly what it is the British Nationalists are offering Scotland’s voter’s….
AND … at some point either pin them on or expose them for having no plans for a Yes vote and no plan about how they could separate from London HQ to be an actual party,showing that they are in fact the ones advocating “a Blind Yes”!!!
Or “a Blind No” if they won’t engage!!!!
Fuck the legalities, if there even is any. Are we to believe that England’s majority counts where Scottish ones don’t. Should have fought any legal battles long before now. We just seem to be blowing in the wind a bit. Next weeks march should be interesting to hear folks opinions
re. Deliberative Democracy.
Deliberative Democracy
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/deliberative-democracy
Bewildered by you n this Rev,
What polling have you saw that shows the surge in support for independence that we need to get us over the line?
Clearly Brexit isn’t biting yet, as ‘They’ have been kicking it down the line, but once people in Scotland start feeling the pinch, they will start to realize just what being tied to Westminster costs, then hopefully look again at independence.
Otherwise we go into another indy campaign in which the scare stories still work because our scare stories about Brexit will be classed as ‘project fear mark 2’ unless the people are seeing it for themselves.
Once Brexit bites, let the voters decide.
The SNP leadship will have ‘wargamed’ every scenario and route forward. Does anyone think they haven’t? Serious BritNats will certainly have assumed so!
And for every eventuality there will be plans with appropriate responses.
There will be mountains of focus group opinions and private polling stats. There will be learned and legal advice.
What surprises me are those who expect any of this to be made public before it can be actioned.
Why would the FM and inner circle even hint at what they would do when any of the dozens of possible situations arise?
We don’t just need a referendum we need one we can win. The wild incompetence of Westminster has dragged everything down to a snail’s pace.
However, a hard Brexit will I believe be a catalyst for a successful move to independence. What I am not sure about is whether there is any will left in Westminster for Brexit. We are in limbo and it is frustrating.
Mmm, seems very appropriate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-_I
but it’s not just us under pressure now …
And we’re off!
https://www.yes.scot/
(I think).
Byeee Dr Jim.
and this to go with it:
https://www.google.com/search?q=under+pressure+lyrics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab
and that’s me for the noo, time to get other stuff done.
To all those who are doubting Nicola’s sincerity and the resolve of the SNP.
Put yourself in their shoes.
T May has managed to completely bamboozle everyone – probably even herself with her ineptness over Brexit. Even at this stage we don’t know ‘when’ or even ‘if’ it will ever happen.
Corbyn is confusing things further with his unwillingness to commit to a 2nd referendum on the EU.
WM is screwing itself in knots but throughout this we all have to keep sight of our one goal which is to become an independent country, successfully at the next attempt.
There won’t be another attempt for a long time if we muck this up so we have to get this right.
Imagine we are all on a storm-tossed ship heading for the rocks. We don’t know when the ship will hit the rocks, we don’t know where it will be damaged or how it will sink but we know one thing – it is going to run aground and there will be only one chance to jump safely onto the rocks and survive.
That is where we are just now and we have to be the survivors.
Nicola will jump and there will be little time to carry that out so be prepared.
We are not just doing this for ourselves we are doing this for all the future generations that will be able to say that they are Scottish, so we owe it to them to stay patient but alert.
I’m not saying that is going to be easy but the prize is definitely worth it and I want to win.
Frustration.
The length and breadth of these islands , and the rest of europe , frustration at brexit and everything that goes with it.
Cant see anything happening over the next two to three years , unless something unforseen at present jumps up and sticks a stick in the wheel.
500/650 in westminster or so dont want brexit. The majority of that number dont want scottish indy or irish unity either.
The way i see it , the powers that be who wish the status quo want to sit on their hands for the forseeable , maybe do a bit of dodgy dealing in back allways , until something comes up , like a mass change in polling of the english electorate over brexit.
In the local english and euro elections coming up , if labour and tories get a kicking by the brexit party , then it ramps up the pressure over brexit even more. If they dont , the two main parties will see it as business as usual and free reign to carry on as normal kicking brexit into the long grass.
Unless the europeans run out of patience , and i dont think they will , nothing much is going to happen over brexit or indyref 2 until the next scottish and uk general election.
Politicians of all parties seem intent on sitting on their hands publicly waiting on someone else to make the next move.
So unless the scottish government and yes movement take the fight ruthlessly to westminster and start dictating how things develop , we continue to be at the mercy of westminster over their brexit can kicking , and they are going to do nothing with brexit until they are forced to by an angry english electorate.
This is similar to the 1979 scottish devolution referendum all over again , where a yes vote was overturned just as they are doing to the brexit vote in a more subtle way , and we waited 20 years for the result to be implemented .
We seem to be at the mercy of events in england yet again.
You could of course have an ‘advisory’ referendum, after all that is what the Brexit referendum was.
Hope the Black Books production is well underway. We will soon be selling water from Scotland at a higher price than even oil.We have all the resources and all the cards in our own hands.
Marches this year should be bigger than ever, show them what ‘no appetite’ looks like and start wearing our Yes badges everywhere we go.
And if Scotland votes No again then we will deserve everything Boris, his pals, and the red tories throw at us.
Me@5.47pm
Correction – it should of course have been Christine JARDINE Lib dem MP.
We had a chance – it was 2014. The people of Scotland blew it.
End.
Re;Jomry@6.13pm
Very interesting to read your comment. Afraid it’s not so uncommon for people to have those ideas and beliefs that have been fed into their living rooms, over the airwaves 24/7.
Taxi drivers listen to the radio, bbc, a lot.
Propoganda works, it’s happening now, it always has done. The Britnat state do not play nice when they are threatened with losing, well anything really, nevermind Scotland’s massive massive resources and land.
We have to remember that Scotland is really, really up against a monster. That monster is the so called MSM.
( Britnat state controlled ) They hold all levers of power and money. Come on people look at the dark money stuff, how much the British nationalist parties get away with, it’s horrendous.
Mixed feelings today, but NOT giving up. The SNP are not perfect, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place, they rely on membership to fund campaigns. They don’t have unlimited funds from dodgy people, from dodgy regimes to get the votes, or even put shiney leaflets through doors.
SNP are actually doing the day job for Scotland, while trying to maneouver and negotiate their way, our way around a big fat lying Britnat right wing state.
Anyone saying they are cancelling their membership today hopefully do not rely on the SNHS, do not have kids or grandkids at University, do not need prescriptions, do not need the £400 a year carers’ supplement to carers allowance in Scotland, via the SNP gov.
Hopefully they do not need to use the borders railway, or cross the Forth via a new bridge. Hope fully they do need to live in a brand new council house built by the SNPgov. Hopefully they are not victims of the Ukgov in England’s bedroom tax or other benefits cuts. Hopefully they can get all of these things without the SNP, because if there was a Britnat party in charge at Holyrood right now, Scotland would be a basket case, with no NHS to speak of.
The Britnats have kept Scotland poor for a very long time, siphoning away Scotland’s oil and huge revenues. Labour UK branch were at Holyrood for ten years, anyone think of ANYTHING they did for Scotland? because I can’t.
Nicola Sturgeon is not daft, perhaps hesitant, perhaps been at the receiving end of T.May threats, re Scotland, but I am not giving up.
Let the Britnats laugh, let them squawk, let them squirm, they p**s on Scotland, but they will be livid that an Indy ref has not been put back until after the next Holyrood election.
Just wait and see how they react, boo hoo.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
This is so, so, frustrating.
Nicola seems to want to have a Perfect Storm and all the dusks lined up.
I undertand that the strategy of waiting for Brewit pain to take hold is potentially the right approach assuming that a shift of opinion towa
The pretendy independistas are all crawling out of the woodwork to put the boot into the SNP.
Even Stu.Perhaps he resented (rightly)a paid official woman’s officer of the SNP praising Kezia Dugdale.
As for the rest of the naysayer piling in to put the boot in to the FM I have two Campbell words for you tractors.
FUCK OFF.
Not quite sure how to ‘take’ this thread.
My views coincide with Jack Collatin @ 5-15?
However I think the Revs articles have changed since his court judgement came out. I think he may be suffering some delayed ‘reaction’.
I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but I’m rather concerned for ‘Wings’.
However he has managed to bring loads of concern trolls out of the woodwork!!
Coco @ 6-13 excelled himself, bet he managed a stiffy!
towards independence can even be fairly measured.
Its not what I would do. UK is weak and we should strike while they are focused on Brexit before 30 Oct. Even if it failed we can state correctly that its an unailenable right for self determination as opinion moves.
Famous 15 @ 6-53
Perfect summation!
Nicola’s really good accessment of the current appalling situation. With legislation to follow. Cross Party/ citizen’s convention. A citizens convention achieved Holyrood governance and the improvement to Scotland that has brought. It can be taken forward. Applying to the EU Courts and UN once again. Westminster unionists have to comply with International Law or fail once again. A S30 can be obtained through the Courts because of the terrible way Scotland has been treated by Westminster unionists. The total lack of Democracy within the Uk Union.
The Brexit shambles. Absolutely appalling, The Westmibster unionists could not make a bigger mess. Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence and a better world.
O/T
The metropolitan blats and the BBC are going to great lengths to avoid any suggestion that Ian Blackford was among the mourners in Belfast earlier today.
@Proud Cybernat
Sorry, I nicked your quote elsewhere. Must have stuck in my mind!
I can’t help thinking that the vast majority of posters on Wings have entirely missed the main point of Nicola Sturgeons statement today and it was this:
Firstly, I can confirm that the Scottish Government will act to ensure that the option of giving people a choice on independence later in this term of Parliament is progressed.
We will shortly introduce legislation to set the rules for any referendum that is now, or in the future, within the competence of the Scottish Parliament.
The point being that the legislation that governed the 2014 referendum was only passed by Holyrood AFTER they had agreed a Section 30 order with Westminster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Independence_Referendum_Act_2013
Now however, Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish government have just stated Fuck your Section 30 order as we will pass legislation anyway for a second referendum AT THE TIME OF OUR CHOOSING!.
Now Mrs May or your successor. What’re you gonna do about it? Eh! Eh!
Keep the faith, Nicola is a sharp person, she won’t be telling the unionists what is happening next.
I may not be the sharpest tool in the box,but even I can see that NOTHING can really(apart from preparing referendum legislation) be done till Brexit is done and dusted. Brexit will be completed well before our mandate expires,this gives us the legitimacy to hold indyref2 and London will feel the full force of the Scottish electorates wrath at the next GE if the section 30 order is not granted.
I’m inpatient,we are inpatient and the Revs impatient but hold tight as circumstances will fall in our favour and then the prize will be claimed.
May / Johnson / Gove / Dingbat: “Help me Rona!”
LOLZ
If you fancy a different take on today’s statement go on over to Wee Ginger Dug and also have a read at the comments 🙂
Well said, Jack Collatin 5.15 and Jim Lynch 5.47. A real sense of perspective.
I watched it all this afternoon too, up until the Stasi thug, Findlay grunted his disapproval and here was me thinking the revolutionary comrades might have welcomed her announcement on a citizens assembly with roses.
Honestly, I was verneer weeping when i looked around at the calibre of the msps on show in this parliament and the voting system that produces wullie Rennie, wanna buy a Carlaw, ‘psy-ops’ Tomkins, doolally Wells, all the labour politbureau and their brazen amateur night-out faux facial expressions during the questions session. I mean, I didn’t even hang around for James Kelly. Mibbes just as well.
Yeah, political change just doesn’t happen as quickly as a tweet, but what’s the alternative? Nowt furrit but to thole it. Tough shit. How long did the Irish take to shake off the British? Half a Century? and not even by painfully slow democratic means.
The FM is still gathering support (ie independence votes) from all quarters in her reasonable inclusiveness. And that won’t suit the naysayers not one bit. She knows and is saying devolution itself is under existential threat from Brexit. When people begin to realise that decent day by day governance will go down with the ship, they’ll throw their lot in with the Yes movement. She is playing it right down the middle as far as i can see. She’s playing politics in a bid to maximimise and widen support. She is in it for the long game, not for how long it takes to tweet one’s frustration. All cliches I know, but there’s an element of truth there. She knows the numbers simply have to increase.
Ther, at least i’ve said something.
She can count on my vote.
thepnr@6.14pm
You are correct. The Britnats are out in force today. Of course you missed the prize winner for being the sneakiest Britnat concern troll – Essexexile even concern trolling Stu Campbell. This guy is the biggest phoney.
The responses from the other parties were just as I expected.
The Tories spouted nonsense (pretty much stuck in 2014).
Labour! Well they didn’t even reach the level of nonsense but decided to ask what is being done on reserved matters. But we are reminded that Scotland is the only country they oppose gaining its independence, Brit Nationalism in its purest form.
The most interesting are the LibDem’s because they claim to be a pro EU party, but when push comes to shove they choose Scotland enslaved in the UK over being an independent country in Europe. They are the biggest frauds at Holyrood.
Westminster can’t crash out of the EU without a deal because of the Scottish problem. They can’t revoke A50 because of the English problem. They can’t take a middle course because of the Irish problem.
Why unite them against Scotland by announcing Indyref2 too soon? Let them fall apart first.
Recently in several taxis in Glasgow. With migrant and Scottish drivers. All totally supportive of Independence. Absolutely knew their stuff. Every single one of them. Knew all the great reasons for Scottish Independence. The total valid criticism of Westminster unionist governance. The total folly of all the policies from illegal wars etc to Brexit. Everyone of them knew their reasons. They could not believe people had not voted for Ibdependence 2014 and how foolish that had been. They all supported another Referendum and Independence. All voted SNP. The migrant drivers possibly could not have been allowed to vote in a GE. UK terms. All appreciated Scotland.
Depends which taxi people go in for completely difference reaction. Many Taxi drives are even aware of Wings etc. Internet connections. Go on the internet while waiting for fares and connections. Really savvy taxi drivers out there.
I’m with Gaavster at 4;39 pm.
This is how we secure independence.
https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/2018/09/07/do-you-see-it/
On the new BBC Scotland channel the programme YES/NO the independence referendum (principles involved in 2014), has three parts. In the first part Nicola Sturgeon is interviewed.
She admits to being a huge pessimist.
She went on “I am always pessimistic, even in the last week of a campaign, I am so pessimistic I think we are going to be beaten”
In 2017 at the General Election she got a massive fright when the SNP lost 21 seats. Her getting a fright is how one of the longest serving SNP MPs at Westminster told us when he was giving us a talk in Cupar Rugby Club in December 2018. The big reason, IMO, the SNP lost 21 seats in 2017 is because they were the only party that never mentioned “independence”, Nicola Sturgeon shied away from the word independence. Which caused about 500,000 indy supporters not to vote.
Sadly, I think Nicola Sturgeon is a ditherer, a feartie. It raises the question whether she really wants independence.
She has thrown a number of SNP MPs/MSPs under the bus when anything has been alleged. She played a huge part in the Alex Salmond case, even after the judge had savaged the procedure the head of the Civil Service had implemented, yet what did Sturgeon do??? She backed Lesley Evans.
All this raises a further question in my eyes. (Maclean, Blunt, Burgess, Philby recruited by the Russians at university. I am sure MI5 did the same back. ??????)
I used to blindly defend Nicola Sturgeon against everyone who ever criticised her. I am not so sure now.
I think the rev is still upset over last week. He made an ungracious comment and the tory press –Daily Record pounced. He didn’t have to say anything other than be pro independence. His disappointment will subside even with the SNP.
The First Minister is cleverer than most. The labour party and tories have to basically say to Scotland “yir no getting any more other then Brexit”
Every young person from age 15 onwards will wish to vote as a majority for Independence. Those britnats who voted No will stay say No. The waverers and doubters can be won over and this is more likely as the Brexit mire continues.
I’m hoping for BRINO, which will give Scots the legal protection of still being in the EU, but will drive the English Leave vote to destroy any remaining notion of ‘One Nation’ Britain. Mind you, I just caught an interview with a Scottish Conservative MSP, outside Holyrood. Didn’t catch his name but his world view was certainly that of a British nationalist, and he had no apparent concern for avoiding the damage Brexit will cause Scotland.
IMHO, Scottish Conservatives need to decide whether they are Scottish patriots or lapdogs of English Tory exceptionalism and (white) British nationalism.
Nicola said she was hoping for a Brexit before Oct 31, but we are not going to wait forever a referendum will be held in the lifetime of this Parliament based on the treatment and complete disrespect shown to Scotland. Sounds good to me.
A couple of Sun Zhu quotes which may be relevant..
“How victory may be produced for them out of the enemy’s own tactics–that is what the multitude cannot comprehend. ”
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt”
“Do not swallow bait offered by the enemy. Do not interfere with an army that is returning home. “
Looks like Sturgeon will have to find a way of getting around Westminster to hold a second indyref posturing is a dead end.
If not we’ll remain tied to this dysfunctional union until Scotland is sucked dry by the Westminster vampire.
Thepnr@6.58pm: “…we will pass legislation anyway for a second referendum AT THE TIME OF OUR CHOOSING!”
That’s what I inferred from it. I want to say it’s glorious, but don’t want to jinx it.
What today did was show us that Sturgeon is atently NOT up to the job.
Oh for a Mary-Lou McDonald!
Btw for all those that swarm over any piece of criticism of the SNP.
Rev did not set up this site as a pro SNP website for SNP sychophants.
It is a website for open discussion and opinions with a pro Independence view.
I agree totally with the Revs views and think those lambasting him on his own site should have a long hard think.
FM has done well today.I am optimistic that her inclusive approach gives the persuadable a route out of the Unionist silo , recognising that there is no rational alternative to independence.The Brexit saga has to play out.Jumping before then means certain defeat.
The Scottish government will NOT be asking Westminster for a Section 30 order. Instead they will go ahead and vote through the necessary legislation for another referendum WITHOUT asking Westminster’s “permission”.
If Westminster want to challenge the legitimacy of Holyrood to make such an act without a Section 30 then let them try.
That in a nutshell is what today’s statement is all about.
Have some faith all you Indy supporters, not every politician is as incompetent as May or Corbyn and we have a good one!
“The speech was a stalling exercise designed to appease the SNP membership and Yes movement by not explicitly putting a second referendum beyond 2021, in the hope that something (such as the aforementioned general election) happens to change the deadlock by which the UK government can just say “No” indefinitely.”
Yes it was Stu, and Frankly that’s ok with me. The point of the whole thing is that Scotland becomes an independent country. The Westminster Government and the British political system is in a state of collapse and disarray, which is why we should let them get on with it.
As Napoleon said, never interfere when your enemy is making a mistake.
As an ex black cab Glasgow taxi driver for 12 years, I can state Nicola has my full confidence in her and indy awaits.
@Brian
Fuck OFF troll! Just my opinion and is fair comment.
Still keeping that powder dry thepnr?
How long have you all been saying that…. two, three years?
Your the clown.
You just proved that
Note to Rev…..anyone who says anything to criticise the SNP is a troll apparently.
That makes you a troll on your own website!
Mad Unionist doesn’t seem so bad now that Brian the Britnat is venting his crap.
Cubby
I’m going to pull you up on that one.
Having experienced a lengthy court case myself several years ago I know that they can hang over you and have a negative impact on your life. Towards the later stages it can become all consuming. You really do lay awake at night wishing it would all be gone in the morning.
To get a judgement that is, at best, unclear after all the effort will have affected the Rev, not to mention the further uncertainty about costs. If he’s feeling pretty down about politics in general and a bit jaded about the SNP at the moment then I think it’s understandable. A proper period of rest, reflection and refreshment might be the best course of action.
I’m not ‘concern trolling’ anybody. I’m just genuinely concerned for the welfare of another human being who also happens to be a key member of the indy movement.
I’ll say no more other than your silly comment has actually made me quite angry.
“The speech was a stalling exercise designed to appease the SNP membership and Yes movement by not explicitly putting a second referendum beyond 2021, in the hope that something (such as the aforementioned general election) happens to change the deadlock by which the UK government can just say “No” indefinitely.”
I’m with Nicola on this, as Napoleon said, never interfere with your enemy when they’re making a mistake. The UK government is in disarray, leave them to it.
Thepnr
You are on exactly the same wavelength as the Scottish Government.
I have mentioned this before re the new proposed Scottish Constitution that Mike Russell introduced just about one month ago. One thing the SNP is not doing is sitting on their hands.
The devil is in the detail. Perhaps some people need to go away and read it.
I only cancelled my snp membership today and now I am a Britnat?
A lot of bumptious twats on here with their heads up their own backsides.
Rev deserves better
@Brain
Couldn’t give a shit what you think. You’ve dumped the SNP and would rather have no Independence if it meant being deceived.
What the fuck are you posting for then on an Indy supporting site? As I said earlier you can fuck OFF.
Och has your inner anarchist been let down Stu…diddums.
Her speech was fine as things stand. We’ll all still be voting SNP unless anyone is really taken in wi the abject stupidity of those that think voting for Labour en masse again or transferring their votes to the Tories is the ‘answer’ to the ‘question’: ‘Should Scotland be an independent country?’
Thought not. 🙄
No I do not like being deceived by a party I put my trust in.
The SNP have been VERY deceitful.
I am on this site because I support Independence.
I will never vote SNP again and there are many that agree with me.
I will not as you say FUCK OFF, I will continue to put my views.
The Independence supporting GREEN party now have my vote.both votes.
Reprehensible twat, get your head out your backside
brian is a spanner or is its a wrench?
I’ve waited decades, I’m not in a tear arse hurry.
Had to live a life in that time, it won’t fall apart because of Brexit or no Indyref this year. On the other hand, I have had to swerve stress and negativity.
The Rev has a website which requires daily rolling in the mire of swine, to bring some semblance of ‘Independence news’ to the masses. That can only bring a grim nihilism to anyones outlook, when there is barely a bone of hope to gnaw at.Time for a change of perspective perhaps.
Someone will stand on an Indy ticket. It may not be the SNP. But if the likes of AUOB and the greater YES movement can put 100,000 on the street at the drop of a hat, then no political party is safe…
Certainly a stench.
Hi Dr Jim at 5:01 pm.
“And it’s goodbye from me to Wings over Scotland
I just saw what you did there Rev, perfect Farage tactic”
I’ve been reading your comments on WOS for a whiley and have always found them understandable, even when longer than two sentences.
However, in the above comment, I just can’t understand what your point is. Maybe I’m being a local football venue (dens[e]) but could you expand further, for the sake of my piece of mind?
TIA.
@ Thepnr.
Well said, a significant move by the government, a direct challenge to Westminster in my opinion. The Government must be fairly well advanced in the preparations for this, so we can look forward to this getting pelters from the media.
Yes it was a stalling exercise and I’m not sure what everyone expected. It’s politics I’m afraid and the shit has still to hit the fan IMO.
I’m no SNP die hard. I vehemently oppose the idea of their six currency tests laid out by a bank economist for example, but I struggle to see what calling indyref today would achieve.
There is still a huge stushie brewing in England with the right wing parties waiting to move in and stir up a summer of discontent.
Thing I was most surprised about was that the briefing took place in the first place.
If the Westminster government does not accept the mandate of a government elected at Holyrood they then must accept the mandate of the system accepted by themselves. A majority of SNP MP’s returned to Westminster is a mandate to end the union. They can’t claim both are not acceptable, we either use the Holyrood or Westminster system. Under both systems currently there is a mandate (no matter how the BBC political editor tries to spin it).
Thepnr says
Just want to say to you, and before you tell me I don’t want independence, I criticised Nicola Sturgeon today. I am 100% for independence and I would go a long way for it.
What was said today in her statement, why wasn’t all that done 2 to 3 years ago if not before, I mean the preparation. Why is the only game in town, to be begging Westminster for a S30, that is Nicola Sturgeon’s only way forward.
There are experts, one writes on here, who has given her other legitimate legal routes to independence. But she still sticks to the gradualist approach and a S30.
Why?
Essexexile – one minute you are Mr Nice guy from Essex trying to charm everyone – even trying for a bromance with Cactus – next minute Dr Doom takes over and you are concern trolling away.
If this makes you angry away and pour yourself a cup of tea.
Really good article from Wee Ginger Dug as usual. Totally Positive. Donated. Great read. Clear graphics etc. Enlightened.
Because Scotland voted NO in 2014, that’s why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFDcoX7s6rE That’ll save the Implement the Mandate mob some energy Fixed that fur yous nae need tae thank me LoL .
A lot of people whose names I don’t recognise telling us they are leaving the SNP. I smell shite!
Ergo the stench.
I’m with you @Thepnr says at 6:58 pm
It is a f*ck you, we’re having IndyRef2 with or without an S3O.
To quote the FM today:
“We do not need a transfer of power – such as a section 30 order – to pass such a framework Bill, though we would need it to put beyond doubt or challenge our ability to apply the Bill to an independence referendum.”
https://www.snp.org/it-is-time-to-look-to-scotlands-future-with-confidence-in-the-potential-of-our-country-and-all-those-who-live-here/
A ‘keep being the only adult in the room’ regarding Brexit to win over Soft NOs and Pro EU voters from BritNat Parties when England “Takes back control” via Brexit and the wheels properly fall off the UK.
4 SNP MEPs returned from the European Parliament Elections in May (if they actually happen) will also send a message (2 fingers) to the “no appetite for… Polls show no rise in support for…” naesayers and also to the EU.
Keep the faith folks.
Another diehard troller. Scrolling on. Bypass. So patiently obvious. Oblivious.
Actually Brian has a mind of his own
Btw maybe Sturgeon kicking the can away as after the Salmond investigation she may be out of a job?
Please don’t say… Nicola knee nothing!!!!
Cubby
I can’t believe that we’re doing this a-FUCKING-gain
I have requested politely, and on numerous occasions that you please stop hassling me on this comments board.
This endless tripe about ‘Britnat’ and ‘concern trolling’ is complete nonsense that only exists in your head.
I could post many, many opinions of you but I won’t.
Final warning (and I do mean it this time). I’d rather not have to run to teacher but enough is enough.
@James Caithness
I take it you didn’t read any of my post at 7.33pm where I said:
“The Scottish government will NOT be asking Westminster for a Section 30 order. Instead they will go ahead and vote through the necessary legislation for another referendum WITHOUT asking Westminster’s “permission”.”
What is it that makes you think that “Why is the only game in town, to be begging Westminster for a S30”?
Quite obviously they aren’t begging for anything and are going for a referendum regardless.
You have done it yet again Rev. Spot on!
Anne McN says:
24 April, 2019 at 4:15 pm
Listened to the speech, bit disappointed in the fact nothing was definitive but what choice do we have – start another party? split the yes vote? help!!!!
Dorothy Devine says:
24 April, 2019 at 4:35 pm
And as a matter of interest to those who said they are cancelling their SNP membership over this , just for whom will you vote ??
There is no other party that will lead Scotland to independence – absolutely NONE.
————–
Couldn’t agree with you more. Hopefully there is a way.
Many very good Indy people/SNP members and supporters with immense talent have been cast aside, thrown under the bus by the current regime. You know who you are!
Stand as Independents for Independence. I beg you?
Many in the Yes movement will support you and vote for you.
Signed: Independentista, depressed beyond belief.
PS
I love Wings commenters but I’m so sick of the SNP sycophancy. Just saying.
This strategy of Holyrood passing a referendum bill without a Section 30 being in place does not need a general election or the support of anyone other than the Greens and SNP in Holyrood.
It is a direct challenge to Westminster to take the Scottish government to court or allow any bill passed to stand. I think we can all guess where this is most likely to be headed next.
Those that wanted a fight, looks like you’re going to get one.
If you haven’t already, then check these out …
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com
https://www.yes.scot
Labour and the LibDem’s voted against the removal of Scotland’s powers, they now have to put their money were their mouth is. They need to engage in proposals to protect Scotland, if they don’t then we can see it was just empty rhetoric to give the impression they were standing up for Scotland. I suspect I know want they are going to do.
The legislation is needed to be passed, this was always the case. A section 30 will in time be requested, if it is refused we then either hold the referendum and proceed dependent on the result (I’m not sure the councils will boycott it, dangerous precedent). Or we then use the next election, doesn’t matter which, as a referendum. An election just needs a majority in the relevant parliament to make it valid (more than 50% of the vote is a bonus), but that’s how parliamentary mandates work.
Of course the claim will be that Holyrood can’t take constitutional decisions, well that’s fine it is much easier to achieve a majority at Westminster with less votes.
Some will claim this route is UDI, but I don’t see how a vote using the constitutional rules can be claimed to be this. Especially if a referendum is refused no matter how we vote.
Thepnr @8.24
Spot on.
Adrian B says:
24 April, 2019 at 3:59 pm
It’s on…
Campaigning has just started.
Some of us have never stopped campaigning but this non event has done it for me. Sick of beating the drum for a leadership who are quite happy to sit back and watch our hopes disappear. I feel like they are taking the piss and watching us as they play games with our lives.
I am backing Nicola Sturgeon, just like I backed Alex Salmond, and how I do Scotland, the SNP, Wings…..and all of you….
(most of you anyway)
I am Team Nic
Brian may not be a troll (a word that perhaps should be treated like Ts & Qs), but what he….or she is…..is a SPLITTER!
Now….BRIAN…..do us all a favour and go watch the scene in the movie of your own life
The SNP seem to think it was THEY who took us to the brink of success in 2014.
It was not. It was the YES movement.
All the lads and lassies out trudging the streets getting the message out, distributing revs book etc.
And ever since the SNP hierarchy have tossed the YES movement to the sidelines and offered not a crumb.
To then come out and smash us in the face like this is unforgivable.
Prove me wrong Nicola….get yourself out and march under the AUOB or are you washing your hair that day?
Thepnr @8.24
Agreed. I’m no chess master but I reckon Nicola is moving pieces into position.
Croompenstein – I would be very wary of donating to this new fundraiser at http://www.yes.Scot The SNP have approximately £482,000 sitting in their coffers from the first big indyref2 fundraiser in early 2017. We were assured, after Theresa May scuppered everything with her unexpected GE, that the money was frozen for later use. So why the need for another one? What has happened to that money? I think we deserve to be told before they can expect any more donations.
@ gus1940 who said says:
“The metropolitan blats and the BBC are going to great lengths to avoid any suggestion that Ian Blackford was among the mourners in Belfast earlier today”
he was there – 2nd or 3rd pew back from the altar. See RTE coverage of funeral in direct
My posts are at least as relevant as anyone else’s on here.
You can carp and froth at the mouth all you want but you will go before I do, I guarantee you.
Name calling like Britnat, troll etc is acting like spoilt wee kids that are not getting all your own way.
Maybe it’s time for us with open minds to take back this site from the sycophants
Heed the words of WGD …..
“So we’re on the way. The conditions for a ensuring that there is successful vote on Scottish independence have never been more favourable. We have something to work towards. But we have a great deal to do. There is pressure to build. Coalitions to form. Consensus to seek. Alliances to make. Persuasion to produce. Campaigning to plan. A future to create. We have work to do. We’re going to be busy.”
Agreed. The SNP need to come clean and tell us where our £482,000 is.
Remember the SNP raffles to ‘win a car’ and the shenanigans that went on there.
Can the SNP be trusted?
I dont like admitting it but all my respect for the SNP has gone by now and I see Nicola as a posturing hyper-progressive politically correct waste of space.
Im not even talking about the referendum non event here. Im talking about the lack of respect for freedom of speech, the constant feminist claptrap, the constant pandering to *certain religions*, her stupid opinions on other countries leaders and elections. Its pathetic. Just take a look at her twitter feed.
In all honesty I believe a large section of SNP support (or at least Nicola’s) is only so high just now because A: everyone else is utterly ridiculous and B: they are holding their nose and ‘getting on with it’ or the sake of Scottish independence.
Cant stand progressive leftist politics and I cant stand the poisonous, hypocritical pushers of it. That’s what the SNP now are.
@Brian
“Maybe it’s time for us with open minds to take back this site from the sycophants”
You’re a scream so you are LOLOLOL
@Brian who said
“What today did was show us that Sturgeon is atently NOT up to the job.
Oh for a Mary-Lou McDonald!”
There is one big, big difference (apart from others policy-wise etc ) between FM Sturgeon and Mary Lou McDonald
FM Sturgeon grew up, was educated and operates politically in the UK
ML McDonald, SF leader, grew up and was educated in the Republic of Ireland and operates politically there and in the UK
It makes a difference when a leader grows up and is formed free of the UK from birth
And we won’t need to beg for a section 30 order to do it thepnr
Moving on, there’s this from Sturgeon’s speech “The Euro elections will also give voters a chance to back a party, that wants to keep Scotland in the European Union.”
https://news.gov.scot/speeches-and-briefings/first-minister-statement-brexit-and-scotlands-future
and also about the cross party aspect of pro-EU “Cross party votes of this Parliament have been disregarded time and time again.” (slightly out of context).
I’d come to the conclusion I could care less about the EU Elecitons. Who cares? It’s only for 4 months then it’s Brexit. And unless there’s an Indy Ref involved, what’s the point of yet another message to the EU that Scotland wants to Remain?
Her speech changes this, for me at least. If Indy Ref 2 is in the air, we need 6 pro-EU MEPs to be elected. No Fartage, no Brexit and bust party, and no Tories as the home ones are just appendages of the UK Tories (mostly).
But note she said pro-EU, not pro-Indy. Well, in Holyrood she could hardly say SNP (or SNP and Green). But the thing is this, two of the Labour MEPs were part of the A50 revocation super six. Shame we can’t do STV on this, rank candidates in order. Safest thing is all SNP.
But for those that hate the SNP there’s Green, and for those not for Indy we may be talking to but are pro-EU, there’s Labour. Perhaps it could be achieved to get 3 SNP, 1 Green and both the Labour for a total of 6 pro-EU MEPs. That would be a message for the EU, to complement Holyrood’s passing through the dateless preparatory Indy Ref legislation.
So yeah, now I’m all for the EU elections, vote SNP! Or if you can’d do that, make it Green. Their top candidate is Maggie Chapman. The SNP’s top three are Alyn Smith, Christain Allard and Aileen Macleod, with Margaret Ferrier in 4th, with 4 SNP MEPs being a remote possibility.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17594306.revealed-top-three-snp-candidates-for-next-months-eu-elections/
I thought the Scottish education system
Was separate… or am I wrong?
Could there be a clever masterplan behind today’s otherwise underwhelming announcement?
We know that:
1 – a majority of Scots believe that holding a 2nd indyref should be up to the Scottish Parliament
2 – many (most?) Scots do not like to see their country being told what it cannot do by a Tory government in Westminster
3 – the UK government is unlikely to “allow” a second indyref right now
Taking all three together it seems reasonable to ensure that the plan is for Westminster’s reaction to this to increase Scottish dissatisfaction with the status quo ahead of the referendum eventually happening. This may not be a bad idea, after all a 2nd indyref right now is far from a shoe-in for yes whatever we may wish to think.
Thepnr says:
24 April, 2019 at 8:15 pm
@James Caithness
I take it you didn’t read any of my post at 7.33pm where I said:
“The Scottish government will NOT be asking Westminster for a Section 30 order. Instead they will go ahead and vote through the necessary legislation for another referendum WITHOUT asking Westminster’s “permission”.”
Quite obviously they aren’t begging for anything and are going for a referendum regardless.
====================================================
I didn’t read your 7.33, but in answer to your paragraph.
I heard her statement today and I heard they were going to have legislation in place by end of the year, to be in a position to ask for a S30. Then they would ask for a S30 to carry out a referendum. And Nicola Sturgeon then said that Westminster would be under pressure not to refuse. (not her exact words but the meaning is right)
No one should bother to go out and cite in the eu elections. Totally pointless and irrelevant. They don’t take notice of our Scottish election votes so the eu ones are a waste of our time. Stay in and watch re-runs if Question Time folks
BTW
Thepnr says:
24 April, 2019 at 8:15 pm
I hope you are correct.
And I am wrong.
maybe all this is actually, really, really brilliant – a perfect strategy born of cynicism and pure realpolitik
getting out of empire successfully
– have the empire fully occupied – check – brexit
– have powerful allies – everyone hates england by now and even the americans have significant corporate holdings – no one will mess with their shit
– have a quality leadership – check
– choose the right moment to go for it
– expect trouble, be prepared for it – the empire likes to take a shit on its way out
nikkis wanderings recently – to the americans, to the europeans – have been to ensure the necessary support – HAUNERS – to prevent any “spanish measures” from perfidious albion, once we make our move; loyalist mobs riot, send in the army to restore order, institute martial law … nah, no way – we are a nato member, an eu member, trump has his golf courses here, and you can’t punk us like that … the UK deep state is disarmed
2021 is the chosen point in time as the DEMOGRAPHIC WEAPON DETONATES – enough old people have died (sorry auld yins!), and enough younglings turned of voting age – to ensure that no matter how many english live in scotland, nor postal votes get lost/flipped etc … we still skoosh the game by 70-30 – its not even close, not even riggable without it being obvious, and some clever neckbeard dude has found a way to PUT IT ALL ON THE BLOCKCHAIN via a smartphone app …
and this has all been wargamed by edinburgh unis supercomputer (fastest in the UK) – tens of MILLIONS OF SCENARIOS SIMULATED to make sure that this time – there is no mistake, and most importantly – no chance to lose, or to succumb to enemy tactics
I believe in russia citizens assemblies were called … ? … “soviets” …
ALL POWER TO THE SOVIETS!
– will she say it, ever?
– is this a secret shout out to the bella-byres-road front?
I think this post has broken some kind of “layers of irony”-limit and I need to lie down
Oooooh. Sturgeon has a master plan ……burp
@Brian
Is your surname Wilson?
I would highly recommend anyone who has not heard the speech and more to the point answers to the follow up questions to listen to both. I personally think it was clever, non confrontational and was a smart move if you want soft Nos to be Yes voters in 2020. The other parties are put on a hook to explain what they would do and if course if they do that to explain how they would make it happen. So no doubt Devo max and Federalism will be dragged out of the closet but realistically who nowadays will believe those old chestnuts. The Tories in Westminster would block a referendum but realistically will they be around much longer. JC favours Irish integration so I can’t see him denying a section 30 order. Citizens assembly an astute move in my opinion as it will get lots of publicity and again may well encourage soft No’s to move.
Legislating now for the referendum means that actually calling a date and holding it will not take that long. As I said at the start listen to the speech and more importantly the whining of the unionist parties, they know they have been on a clever hook especially Labour.
In the interim it’s essential however the Yes groups all mobilise and as many of us as possible turn up for AUOB. Oh and everyone be positive, usually it’s unionist tweets that drip negativity leave them to be the half pint empty brigade.
@Brian
Guess who said this on Wings? Was it YOU Brian?
“I refuse to vote Green until they have a leader who is Dragonkin.
I then won’t vote for the Greens because they have a leader who is a lunatic.”
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-new-binary/#comment-2052906
Wonder who it may have been that had this to say?
“Let’s be honest, SNP line was we will wait until after the Brexit deal offers before we ask for a referendum.
Then the PM decides to have a General Election that she said she wouldn’t have.
Then the PM loses a lot of seats and bungs the DUP a Billion for votes which I always thought was illegal but nuance I suppose and the Brexit deal is all over the place because the Tories realised (late) how big a problem they had created.
The fact is the SNP can’t do anything until the Tories sort out the shitstorm they created. Ruth Davidson can fuck of and Kezia Dugdale is a non entity. Willie Rennie is less than nothing a fucking negative.”
https://wingsoverscotland.com/up-down-and-turned-around/#comment-2279662
Some Indy supporters bend with the wind while others stand straight and tall.
I managed to watch most of the FM’s speech today. My first feelings were disappointment that things are not moving towards independence as quickly as I would like. But at least there was movement towards holding that important referendum.
I watched as it went round all the other parties in the Scottish Parliament to get their comments in. Then I noticed how NS, rather than giving them her killing slap downs was to some extent pleading with those who were commenting to come up with their own ideas and bring them forward for discussion. Those getting this treatment were fully focused on NS and her encouragement and looked as if they were taking it on board. Of course those who just spout automatic nonsense were quickly moved past.
From reading the more recent articles about the independence campaign it seems that more and more of the infrastructure needed for an independent Scotland is being readied and put in place.
I remembered a recent article saying that some of the Conservative Scottish MSPs were thinking that the Scottish Conservatives should break away from those south of the border. I particularly noticed NS pleading with those that had suggested this for them to bring their own ideas forward in Holyrood. In fact she went round all the opposition parties, concentrating on those MSPs most likely to listen to her message, than those that just delivered soundbites.
When Scotland gets its independence the population will need to be represented by more than the SNP and the Greens. The other parties will have to be present to represent their own party members and all colours of political opinion must be represented in an independent Scotland. I think a lot of the discussion today was aimed at getting the other parties to see a place for themselves in an independent Scotland and to think about the opportunities it would provide for them and the type of Scotland that they would like to work in.
It seemed to me that another phase of building the new Scotland was taking place, even though not much of the SNP plans for gaining that independence were given away.
Well done Rev Stu, you’ve flushed out the concern trolls rather nicely.
Thank goodness for the seasoned Wingers who remain positive and insightful in the face of today’s Britnat politics clusterbourach.
Nicola Sturgeon is a brilliant and astute leader of Scotland.
She has my backing 🙂
Thepnr,
I can guarantee the comment you dug up was not me and I happily swear on your life that it wasn’t.
How many Brian’s do you reckon support Independence thepnr?
I’ve already been called Brian Wilson and God knows whose post you have conjured up.
You really are a strange one!
What petulant childish bollocks some of these posts are. Sturgeon this, Sturgeon that, threatening to cancel SNP membership or stating a preference for no Indy rather than being let down or betrayed or whatever by the SNP. No SNP, no Indy. Deal with it, buckle up, vote, campaign, make the default choice in every action be whatever brings us closer to the prize.
@Ealasaid
Probably by far the most sensible post made on this thread, so many thanks and you won’t be surprised to hear I totally agree 🙂
I thought the announcement was sensible. There has to be a build up of public support for a vote. The experience of Brexit (UK wide) proves how unsatisfactory a narrow win actually is.
4 SNP MEPs might not actually be that remote a possibility @yesindyref2 says at 8:58 pm.
From James Kelly (ScotgoesPOP!):
“…the SNP would have a chance of winning four seats even on 40% of the vote. At 65% they’d be more likely to win five seats, although that would depend on how the remainder of the vote is split between the other parties.”
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/04/are-european-elections-about-to-hand.html
Too many on here are watching Game of Thrones and the Walking Dead
I have a right to cancel my membership unless you’re saying we are controlled by nazis.
Not threatening… I have.
The rest of you can just keep pissing in the wind like you have been for the last 4 years
@Geordie
Well said and it needed saying!
James Kelly (ScotgoesPOP!) is also “…reasonably happy with the statement, and I think it leaves us in a better position today than we were in yesterday.”
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/04/nicola-sturgeons-statement-of-intent-on.html
It’s Politics (Tactics) and we are still moving in the right direction (although frustratingly slowly for some).
Nicola has pulled the trigger on the firing gun for the next Independence vote,
maybe not the Henry V speech some were wanting,
let us all get behind her as she leads Scotland to Independence,
trust her,she is one of the most competent politicians in the world,
time to let England go to fulfil its separate destiny .
I doubt that this is the same poster called “Brian” that I linked to earlier. This one is too stupid and obviously out to cause disruption.
I think I can safely say that what he has to say is of little value and I for one will ignore his dribbling of pish from now on.
‘On how to make it become a reality, there was nothing.‘ Rev. Campbell
I am as frustrated as yourself and my fellow commentators.
However, I am clinging to the hope that the Scottish Government have no intention of letting anybody know at this stage how they intend to make things happen. Why tell your enemy what you intend to do?
Also why do we need this s30?
It was surely only provided in the Edinburgh Agreement to confirm that Westminster would abide by the decision in Indy Ref 1. Do we not take such a matter to Intrenational Courts if Westminster do not like an Independence result. No doubt more clued-up commentators will correct my ramblings should they be inaccurate. Thank you.
Could someone post a transcript of Nicola Sturgeon’s whole speech? So that we can all have a (another?) look at it … And remind ourselves of exactly what we are talking about.
I understand the initial disappointment. And share it … no doubt because I did not at first acquaintance find anything nearly as ‘substantial’ as I had expected. And thought I had been promised …
But it’s quite possible I did not pay sufficient attention, and am missing something. Even quite a few things …
Although I feel rather despondent – quite a lot down, in fact, since I was hoping for more – I am not going to rush to passing any judgement of any kind right now. I won’t be doing so – that is – until I see what NS says at the SNP Conference. This is a double-header, after all.
I expect it’ll be quite a different speech, for a very different audience. She won’t be able to contradict what she said in Holyrood today, but she can’t just repeat it either. If today she threw the bare bones of the matter to the ‘mad dogs and Englishmen – sorry Unionists – in the (just-after) mid-day sun’ in Edinburgh today, I expect her to flesh the whole thing out at Conference.
We might find there that it’s a whole lot meatier, and appetizing, than it seemed to be today.
In its skeletal form at today’s ‘away fixture’ at Holyrood, during its first outing, it deliberately didn’t give the mad-dog scavengers – should I have said the opposition Hyenas? – anything much to feed on. It’ll surely be a different matter for the ‘at-home’ next week, among friends, when the whole ‘family’ turns up from all over the place for its annual festive gathering.
They’ll be wanting something pretty tasty and substantial to chew on. And I can’t imagine the heid chef letting them down … Far less, not turning up.
I have a feeling if what she said the day was all there is to say, there might be few knives out – and they won’t be for the turkey. I also expect she’ll be fully aware of that, and knows exactly what she’s going to do to make sure there’s no chance of any mishap.
It should be a very confident and fleshed-out message. One that gets the momentum going, and into full swing, for the coming European elections which will be less than a month away …
And if it were transpire that these EU elections do not in the end take place, because Brexit will have happened before them, then the same momentum will be applied instead to the post-Brexit action plan. Which will be timed to kick in immediately … without the slightest further delay.
For those who are discouraged, I say the above even though I am not one of Nicola’s biggest fans. In fact, I disagree with her on quite a few things – but I still think she can pull it off.
And, contrary to some of the doubters posting above, I am sure that she really and truly does want independence … Even if her preferred way of getting it (and no doubt some of the things she hopes to achieve through it) are not quite the same as mine, there is no reason to doubt her on that one. As for strategy … well, she’s the politician, not me.
Meanwhile, I am still looking forward to something quite tasty and substantial coming up very soon … Let’s see what happens next – after all, it’s only a couple of days, or so, to wait, this time round … I hope my appetite isn’t being whetted for nothing … C’mon, the Chef!
Capella @ 4.38 pm
Further to BBC not broadcasting live the FM’s announcement.
Radio Scotland between 5pm and 6 pm (peak audience) an interpretation of the FM’s words were conveyed by a news reader whilst listeners were Treated to Carlaw express his views twice.
6pm onwards Sturgeon’s voice was broadcast .
Well I intend to putting the time until Brexit to good use. All this theory and stuff might appear irrelevant and a distraction, but this stuff helps in understanding what makes folk tick and how best to change their opinions. Some of it is even reasonably interesting, if you like that sort of stuff and have the time. 😉
Untangling Cultural Influences on Human Cognition: Integrating Evidence across Cultural Contexts and Methodological Approaches
https://www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/9133/untangling-cultural-influences-on-human-cognition-integrating-evidence-across-cultural-contexts-and#overview
Nicola Sturgeon’s speech to the Scottish Parliament on the implications for Scotland’s future following the recent Brexit developments.
Presiding Officer,
My statement today will consider the implications for Scotland of recent Brexit developments.
As members know, two weeks ago the European Council extended the UK’s membership of the EU until 31 October, with a right for the UK to leave earlier if the House of Commons agrees terms of withdrawal.
The extension granted by the EU rescued us from the nightmare scenario of a no deal Brexit on 12 April.
As a result, I can advise Parliament that the Scottish Government has, for the time being, scaled down our no deal planning.
My thanks go to all those across the public sector who have worked hard to make sure Scotland is as ready as we can be for what would be a catastrophic outcome.
However, I also want to express my regret and anger at the money and effort that has been spent preparing for an outcome that the UK government should have ruled out.
As things stand, if an agreed way forward is not found quickly, the risk of no deal will rise again as we approach the October deadline – with the potential for yet more money, time and effort to be wasted.
The UK government could remove this risk now by making clear that if the only alternative is a no deal exit, it will choose to revoke Article 50 instead.
I hope members will join me today in calling on it to do exactly that.
However, the extension afforded by the EU presents the UK with an opportunity to find a positive way forward – and an opportunity for me to update Parliament about the implications for Scotland.
The view of the Scottish Government is that the best way to break the deadlock for the UK is to put the issue back to the people, with an option to remain in the EU.
The Euro elections will also give voters a chance to back a party, like the SNP, that wants to keep Scotland in the EU.
Of course, almost three years on from the referendum in 2016, it is impossible to predict with certainty what will happen next.
The UK might still leave the EU before October, it might leave in October, it might seek another extension or it might not leave at all.
This chaos was not an inevitable consequence of the vote to leave the EU. It is down to a toxic combination of dishonesty and incompetence.
Those who campaigned for Leave in 2016 failed to set out what Brexit would mean in reality. To the extent that they made any attempt at all, they misled people.
The UK government triggered Article 50 before it had answered that question. The Prime Minister then boxed herself in with a series of self defeating and contradictory red lines.
Instead of trying to build a consensus across parliament or country, she claimed the right to interpret the result in the most hardline way possible.
As a consequence, those who voted to remain question the legitimacy of the whole process,
Those who voted to leave feel – with justification – that promises made to them have been broken. And faith in democracy has been damaged.
Throughout all of this, the Scottish Government – and our party colleagues at Westminster – have worked tirelessly to help find the best way forward for all of the UK.
Whatever Scotland’s constitutional status in future, it will always be in our interests for all of us on these islands to have the closest possible relationship with the EU
So we proposed the compromise option of single market and customs union membership.
We back a public vote to break the deadlock, even though it offers no guarantee that Scotland won’t be outvoted again.
And we are working with others in an effort to remove the risk of a no deal Brexit.
In fact, we have done everything possible to help avert the Brexit crisis for the whole UK. And we will continue to do so.
But we must also consider the best way forward for Scotland in the event that the UK does leave the EU.
And to ensure that all options remain open to us, the time to do that is now.
Of course, we must learn the lessons of the Brexit mess.
Whether we like it or not, the continued lack of clarity around Brexit has implications for Scotland’s decision making – a point I will return to later
But there is, surely, one point of clarity that has emerged over the last three years – even for the most ardent opponent of Scottish independence.
The Westminster system of government does not serve Scotland’s interests.
And the devolution settlement – in its current form – is now seen to be utterly inadequate to the task of protecting those interests.
In other words, the status quo is broken.
Scotland’s 62% vote to remain in the EU counted for nothing. Far from being an equal partner at Westminster, Scotland’s voice is listened to only if it chimes with the UK majority – if it doesn’t, we are outvoted and ignored.
The Scottish Government’s efforts to find a compromise that might mitigate the damage to our economy fell on deaf ears.
Cross party votes of this Parliament have been disregarded time and again.
The agreed constitutional principles which have underpinned devolution since its establishment 20 years ago have been cast aside by the UK Government. And vital powers were effectively taken from us without consent.
Even our financial settlement – which already leaves us vulnerable to austerity, with too few levers of our own – was openly breached with the UK government’s bribe to the DUP.
There is no denying that Brexit has exposed a deep democratic deficit at the heart of how Scotland is governed.
And – whatever our different views on independence – it should persuade all of us that we need a more solid foundation on which to build our future as a country. The consequences of inaction could be severe.
If we are unable to stop or even mitigate Brexit, we will find it harder to export our goods and services across the single market.
Scotland will become less attractive to inward investors – a risk that will be compounded if the Northern Ireland backstop takes effect.
The result will be fewer jobs and an economy that is smaller than it should be.
The Tory and, I’m sorry to say, UK Labour obsession that drives the desire to leave the EU – ending free movement – will restrict the opportunities of our own young people to live, work and study across Europe.
And it will send our working age population into decline.
The issue of migration is not an easy one for politicians to address, but I am proud that parties across this chamber are willing to take on the myths that surround it.
In Scotland, we know that the Westminster approach to migration – as well as being inhumane – poses an existential threat to our future prosperity.
So the Brexit outlook for Scotland is this:
A smaller economy, restricted job growth, fewer people, narrowed horizons and greater pressure on our ability to fund the public services and social contract that we value so highly.
Let me put it in simple language. Brexit, and all that flows from it, will affect the ability of Scottish Governments now and into the future to do the day job – to support business, combat poverty, fund the NHS and public services, and work with other countries to tackle the defining challenges of our time.
And at a time when I think most people in Scotland would want to see this Parliament having more influence on the decisions that shape our future, there is a risk of the reverse.
As the UK scrambles to do trade deals, the inclination to impose uniformity – even in devolved areas – will lead to more Westminster centralisation.
It is my judgment now that, for the first time in 20 years, there is a risk of devolution going backwards.
Not through blatant, wholesale removal of powers – although on recent experience, more of that can’t be ruled out – but by an increasing use of Westminster’s powers to override the decisions of this Parliament and constrain devolved decision-making.
So the question that confronts us now is this: if the status quo is not fit for purpose – and I know even some of the most committed believers in the union find it hard to argue that it is – how do we fix it?
And can we do so in a way that maximises consensus rather than amplifying difference?
These are not easy challenges – but those of us who sit in this chamber are elected to represent the national interest.
We have a duty to rise to the challenge. To stand in each other’s shoes and find a way forward.
No one expects us to abandon deeply held beliefs.
Just as Labour and Tory MSPs may continue to believe that remaining in the union is the right option for Scotland, I will argue that independence offers the best future.
That case for independence is even stronger now, given the profound changes that have taken place in the UK since 2014.
In that time, we have seen the limits of Scotland’s influence within the UK and, in sharp contrast, the power independent nations have as members of the EU.
While Scotland’s interests have been ignored by Westminster, independent Ireland’s have been protected by the EU.
And of the 27 independent countries that decided the UK’s future at the EU Council two weeks ago, around a dozen are smaller than or similar in size to Scotland.
Many of these countries are also more prosperous than Scotland.
With all of our assets and talents, Scotland should be a thriving and driving force within Europe.
Instead we face being forced to the margins – sidelined within a UK that is, itself, increasingly sidelined on the international stage.
Independence, by contrast, would allow us to protect our place in Europe.
It would enable us to nurture our most important relationships – those with the other countries of the British Isles – on the basis of equality.
And it would mean that decisions against our will and contrary to our interests cannot be imposed on us by Westminster.
It would put our future into our own hands – with the decisions that shape our future and determine our relationship with other countries taken here in our own parliament.
That is the essence of independence.
Let me turn, then, to the issue of when I think people in Scotland should be offered a new choice of independence.
My party was elected with a mandate to offer that choice within this parliamentary term should Scotland be taken out of the EU against our will.
There is also a majority in this chamber for that position. And polling evidence suggests that a majority in Scotland want a choice on independence, though opinions vary on timing.
There are some who would like to see a very early referendum. Others want that choice to be much later.
My job as First Minister is to reach a judgment, not simply in my party’s interest, but in the national interest.
In doing so, a key priority is ensuring that we learn the lessons of Brexit.
To rush into an immediate decision before a Brexit path has been determined would not allow for an informed choice to be made.
However, if we are to safeguard Scotland’s interests, we cannot wait indefinitely.
That is why I consider that a choice between Brexit and a future for Scotland as an independent, European nation should be offered in the lifetime of this Parliament.
If Scotland is taken out of the EU, the option of a referendum on independence within that timescale must be open to us.
That would be our route to avoiding the worst of the damage Brexit will do.
However, that intention does not mean that we should cease trying to build as much agreement on the best way forward as we can. Nor should we cease our efforts to avoid any Brexit at all.
We must also try – in all of our actions – to avoid the mistakes that have caused so much division over Brexit and instead bring people together to focus on finding the common ground between us.
Our aim must be to act in a completely different manner to the UK government and parliament.
The fact is, based on the evidence of the last three years, Westminster has failed.
It has failed to protect Scotland’s interests. It has failed to reach consensus. And it has degenerated into chaos.
It is now time for this Parliament, for all the parties represented here, to take charge.
There are therefore three specific steps that the Scottish Government intends to take now.
Firstly, I can confirm that the Scottish Government will act to ensure that the option of giving people a choice on independence later in this term of Parliament is progressed.
We will shortly introduce legislation to set the rules for any referendum that is now, or in future, within the competence of the Scottish Parliament.
We will aim for this legislation to be on the statute book by the end of this year. Mike Russell will set out the details next month.
We do not need a transfer of power – such as a section 30 order – to pass such a framework Bill, though we would need it to put beyond doubt or challenge our ability to apply the Bill to an independence referendum.
Of course, as members are aware, the UK government’s current position is that it will not agree to transfer power.
I believe that position will prove to be unsustainable.
However, by making progress with primary legislation first, we won’t squander valuable time now in a stand off with a UK government that may soon be out of office.
We will seek agreement to a transfer of power at an appropriate point during or shortly after the Bill’s passage, on the basis that it will be exercised when this Parliament – and no other – considers it right to offer people a choice.
In 2014, the Scottish and UK governments and parliaments – to our collective credit – set the gold standard.
Two governments with very different views on the outcome came together to agree a process that allowed the people to decide. That is what should happen in future too.
It is how we will ensure unquestioned legitimacy, not just here at home, but crucially within the EU and the wider international community too.
And it respects the principle enshrined in the Claim of Right – that the Scottish people are sovereign.
Those who oppose independence are, of course, entitled to argue that case. But it must be for the people to decide.
Lastly, on this point, let me quote these words –
“With public sentiment nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed.”
These are the wise words of Abraham Lincoln, an ardent defender of a union, albeit in a great moral cause.
For those of us who support independence, his lesson is obvious.
If we are successful in further growing the support and demand for independence – and I will say more later this week about how we build that case – then no UK government will be able to deny the will of the people or stop that will being expressed.
Presiding Officer,
Let me now turn to two parallel processes I want to outline today.
The first is directed to the parties in this chamber who do not support independence. I may not agree with that view, but I do respect it.
However, what I hope we might all agree on after these last three years is that serious change is needed.
So to those who believe that independence is not the right change for Scotland, I say this:
Bring forward your own proposals to equip our parliament with the powers we need to better protect and advance our interests.
For example, more powers to boost trade and strengthen our economy.
More powers to tackle poverty and inequality.
Powers to protect the public finances that our NHS and public services rely on.
Powers that will allow us to grow our population.
Powers that will give us a stronger voice in the UK, enable us to determine our own future, and better protect our interests here at home and internationally.
I welcome, for example, the recent signals from the Scottish Labour party that they now support the devolution of employment law.
This Parliament was almost unanimous in opposing the Brexit power grab.
And I know many share our concerns on migration and recognise that we do not currently have the tools to solve this problem.
So perhaps there is already more common ground than we like to admit; a starting point that we can build and expand upon.
The fact that we do not agree on Scotland’s ultimate destination should not stop us travelling together as far as we can.
I have therefore asked Mike Russell to explore with other parties – perhaps with the help of a respected and independent individual who could broker such discussions – areas of agreement on constitutional and procedural change, and also take the views of stakeholders about such issues.
I will write to party leaders today and Mike Russell will be in touch with their nominated representatives thereafter to consider how these discussions might be progressed.
This should be an exercise that doesn’t start with the fixed positions of any party – but one that considers the challenges Scotland faces and what solutions might help us to address them.
If serious and substantial proposals emerge, this Parliament could then present them to the UK government in a unified and united way.
If other parties are willing, I give an assurance today that the Scottish Government will engage fully and in good faith.
The last aspect of my statement today is also about how we confront the change our country needs but in a way that tries to build agreement.
None of us can fail to be concerned about the polarisation of political debate caused by the Brexit experience.
The answer though cannot be to ignore or suppress the differing views about the best future for our country.
Instead we should try to find ways of debating our choices respectfully and in a way that seeks maximum areas of agreement.
We should lay a foundation that allows us to move forward together, whatever decisions we ultimately arrive at.
I have been struck recently by the Irish example of a Citizens’ Assembly to help find consensus on issues where people have sharply divided opinions.
Of course, the circumstances here are different, as are the issues under consideration. But the principle is a sound one and I believe we should make use of it.
So I can confirm that the Scottish Government will establish a Citizens’ Assembly.
It will bring together a representative cross section of Scotland, with an independent chair and be tasked with considering, in broad terms, the following issues –
What kind of country are we seeking to build?
How can we best overcome the challenges we face, including those arising from Brexit?
And what further work should be carried out to give people the detail they need to make informed choices about the future of the country?
Again, Mike Russell will set out more details shortly, and seek views from other parties on the operation and remit.
Presiding Officer,
Brexit was not the choice of this Parliament – nor was it the choice of our country.
As I said at the outset, the immediate opportunity we now have is to help stop Brexit for the whole UK. And we should seize that opportunity.
But if that cannot be achieved, dealing with the consequences of Brexit and facing up to its challenges will be unavoidable.
I am aware that the debates that flow from that will provoke differences of opinion.
I believe that the case for independence is stronger than ever. And I will make that case.
I will also do all in my power to protect Scotland’s right to choose – to do anything less would risk consigning the next generation to the damage of Westminster decisions that are not in our interests. But I know others take a different view.
So as we take the necessary legislative steps over the next few months, I will also seek to open up space for us to come together and find areas of agreement as mature politicians should.
And in so doing try to set an example of constructive, outward looking and respectful debate.
We have seen in Westminster what happens when parties fail to work together.
When leaders take a ‘my way or the high way’ approach; and when so many red lines and inflexible preconditions are set that progress becomes impossible. Tensions rise and tempers fray.
Twenty years on from the establishment of this Parliament I believe we can do better. Brexit makes change for Scotland inevitable.
But our fellow citizens will judge us on how we lead debate on the best way forward and the efforts we make to come to a common mind about it.
This place was established with the hope that it would be a new type of Parliament.
I think we are, but we can prove it anew by the way in which we respond today to the challenges that lie before us.
We can show that we have already begun to learn not just the lessons from Westminster’s failure but also those that Scotland has taught us as devolution has grown and strengthened.
We can show that we are able to put the interests of the people first.
So if others across this chamber are willing to move forward in that spirit, they will find in me an equally willing partner.
But if all they have to offer the people of Scotland is a failed and damaging status quo, then the process of change will pass them by and support for independence will continue to grow.
Presiding Officer,
It is time to look to Scotland’s future. Let us do so, together, with confidence in the potential of our country and all those who live here.
https://www.snp.org/it-is-time-to-look-to-scotlands-future-with-confidence-in-the-potential-of-our-country-and-all-those-who-live-here/
I take it thepnr will be going to the Alhambra this panto season with the rest of the morons on here who can’t accent ANY snp criticism to see Sturgeon in her new role as Wishy Washy?
Most do not share Rev Stu’s pessimism…
Tomorrow, the National is devoting 17 pages to the launch of Indy Ref2 and they are printing EXTRA COPIES for shops tomorrow … so don’t forget to pick one up!
They have tweeted, “With your support, we’ll be doing all we can to help secure a Yes vote in indyref2.”
Ealasaid @9.20pm
The Scots Tories were all vehemently opposed to devolution and the creation of the Scottish parliament. Nowadays 20 years on some are now supportive of devolution and take a pride in the Scottish parliament.
Some Scots Tories can change it just takes them a long long time. They do not call themselves the Conservative party for nothing. Change does not come easily to your average Tory but change they do. It is just so slow ( like a lot of evolution ) that it is hardly noticed by Tories themselves or opposition parties.
Brian has already won today’s internet but it appears he doesn’t know when to finish his celebratory dance. 😉
Well having caught up with everything today I am quite pleased with the statement. It sets out a strategy of sorts with enough ambiguity for the dry powder aficionados.
Sturgeon sounds as if she she is listening and taking account of the different voices in the party now – at least with regard to Independence. The conference will be interesting.
Also I have received my email from Keith Brown, asking for money for the campaign:-
“…To make that possible, the Scottish Government will now put in place the legislation required to have a referendum. And our government is to establish a Citizens’ Assembly to deliberate the changes our country needs in a way that builds agreement…”
Should I donate now or wait till after the conference? Sounds like they will need that money with all those leaving.
Brian is not the messiah
🙂
Thanks CameronB,
I’m signing off for the night.
Some of us have to work……..for the Scottish Government.
Some people on this forum need to get out there and listen to what the public are saying.
You are living in a bubble if you believe Independence is anywhere near.
Yes, people are disillusioned with Westminster but it hasn’t (yet) made Independence the preferred option.
I’m afraid it’s a case of a plague on all your houses.
At least we now have a target to aim for. Let our enemies do there worst, no one believes them, but again no one believes the SNP.
This will be won in spite of the SNP.
Brian 6.08pm ” maybe it would be wise to place our votes elsewhere” . Who do you recommend we give them to brian?.
@HandandShrimp
That’s what his mum says anyway 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_kKAeh6qyc
The Royal Mail then the Tories can decide who we voted for?
@Wee Alex
You are right I think, if there was a referendum tomorrow would we win?
Well when it comes to asking that question for real once more I want to be able to say with 110% confidence that it will be won.
Waiting a wee bit isn’t hard to bare only losing is, we are VERY VERY close. lets have patience and trust for a little longer.
Meantime there is absolutely nothing stopping you acting as if we are already in another Independence campaign. So Stop mumping and use your voice to persuade others that Independence is the way to go.
The campaign has started, in fact it has never really gone away.
cassandra says:
Clearly the email was sent just after the FM’s speech. Obviously only members received one. Seem’s odd, folks claiming to have cancelled membership, when the starting pistol has quite clearly been fired! Makes you wonder, eh?
Many thanks, K1, @ 9.46 pm, for posting the full speech.
I’m chilling with a beer. Tick tock.
HandandShrimp says:
24 April, 2019 at 9:57 pm
Brian is not the messiah
?
He just thinks he is – and there are places for those THAT deluded.
Essexexile@8.14pm
I also requested you politely to stop your concern trolling. I also said to you politely that if you continue with these posts I reserve the right to call them out. It’s called free speech. You were the one who went for the insults and threats etc etc etc. You were big enough to apologise which I accepted but this was not me giving up my right to exercise my fair comment. If my comments make you angry don’t read them or go away and have a cup of tea.
It’s my opinion you have been at it from day one and I have read nothing subsequently to change my opinion. Britnats love to come on Wings and try to undermine the confidence of independence supporters.
I repeat if you don’t like my posts then don’t read them.
@X_Sticks
Ah but, where are you chilling?
Wee Alex
“This will be won in spite of the SNP.”?
What about “not only by the SNP”. We’d have no hope of any real opportunity of indy without the SNP, so I’d have thought they are kind of integral to the plan. They are not best placed to influence our families and friends though, we are.
@Alex
Unfortunately still in Aberdeen and still working 🙁
I got mine immediately after the FM speech as I was a member.
Due to the cheek of it I cancelled .
What’s strange about that?
Seems a lot of others did the same.
And Brian’s mum has been calling him a naughty boy since 1979!
Sassenach,
You’re damn right…. SNP members club?
Mike Cassidy,
No that was Jimmy Saville’s Mum.
The democratic campaign for Scottish independence has been going on for many decades. It didn’t just start in 2011 and it will continue on until it is achieved. All those doom and gloom merchants are missing the point – self determination is a basic human right – it hasn’t gone away and it won’t whether or not an indyref2 is won or lost.
Scotland is one of the worlds oldest countries and it will become a normal independent country again. The only questions are when and how.
Sadly the history of the nations achieving Indepence from London highlights the lack of cooperation and accommodation of debate to be expected.
galamcennalath says:
24 April, 2019 at 10:16 pm
cassandra says:
I have received my email from Keith Brown, asking for money for the campaign … they will need that money with all those leaving.
Clearly the email was sent just after the FM’s speech. Obviously only members received one. Seem’s odd, folks claiming to have cancelled membership, when the starting pistol has quite clearly been fired! Makes you wonder, eh?
————–
galamcennalath
Hold, hold: Pause: Procrastinate. Not everyone’s idea of a campaign for Independence.
K1 @ 9.46 pm
Thankyou!!
Now that is a POWERFUL speech by our First Minister 🙂
Always look on the bright side of life, Brian.
Of course you could always join the peoples front of judea, if your not happy in the judean peoples front that is.
@yesbot
You’re another dribbling pish. Fuck OFF.
Yeah, but you’re not calling them out are you? You’re just wierdly obsessed with everything I post and try to convince yourself that I must be some Unionist plant because I have Essex in my profile name and you don’t understand the context of the word exile.
That’s all this boils down to. This ‘from day one’ crap is the result of a few highly bigoted individuals on here who launched into me with profanity laced bile as soon as I started posting because my profile name fits their idea of ‘the enemy’, and (let’s be absolutely honest here) they’re too fucking thick to get past it.
It’s not so much the constant hassling that bothers me, it’s the hassling by an individual showing all the traits and intelligence of a Daily Express reader.
I think I’m done with Wings over Scotland in all honesty. The articles are getting depressing and the BTL is a rinse and repeat argument about sovereignty. A subject which is going to win over precisely zero votes.
For those who do good work here, please keep going and try to keep your head above water. Oh, and thank your lucky stars you were able to avoid the rabid attentions of the glaikit wankers on here by choosing a Scottish sounding profile name.
POWERLESS speech.
She can’t hold Indyref2 unless WM agrees ( which they wont)
Point 1. £482,000 donated by people like us i.e. not million/billionaires, the CIA, Russian oligarchs etc etc. That is a good sum towards a campaign.
BUT the Led by Donkeys group in England raised over £350,000 in about 8 weeks – that will have funded 350 billboards for one month. Only one month.
So the SNP will need more money. As will all our non-party activists.
Point 2. I would have loved a rousing defiant declaration that Scotland is a country that is equal with every other country and we declare ourselves to be outside the Union with England right now/will hold a referendum on X date.
But then what? No country stood up for Catalonia. What if Westminster ignored or said “now is not the time”? How could our income and taxes be redirected to Scottish Government? [And there are more questions that need answers.]
So it isn’t realistic to think we could be free in one leap, much as I would like it. Peat Worrier’s twitter is worth looking at about the “don’t need a S30” view.
Point 3. Like others btl and the Rev, I am tired and strained and desperate for Scotland to be able to put right all the dreadful things that are going on – Universal Credit, immigration, arms sales etc etc etc.
BUT I will keep plugging away, I won’t give up and I will vote SNP. At least there is a declared series of steps being taken by the Scottish Government. And there is a deadline.
Point 4. I have said before that it is worrying to have Alex Salmond out of the game, unable apparently to influence SNP decisions [though he must still have contacts]. BUT there are other tough, experienced people on the case.
I do not believe that Nicola and Ian Blackford and Philippa Whitford, and others, enjoy their current jobs so much that they are postponing action to free Scotland in order to keep their salaries. Remember it was Joanna Cherry and others who took the Article 50 case and won. I have faith that they will not be neglecting to examine every possible avenue.
Finally, an idea for the Rev – surely he and Paul Kavanagh and Peat Worrier must know some top people in the SNP. What about a joint approach to offer counsel and services?
Thanks K1 @ 9.56 pm =)
Nicola Sturgeon’s speech in our Parliament today is truly POWERFUL 🙂
Sturgeon is POWERLESS.
SHE has to go cap in hand ( to borrow title from the Proclaimers) to get for a Section 30 order.
How humiliating.
Sarah, you were doing ok till your second to last paragraph.
There your comment came across as nothing short of spiteful.
We have been waiting for over 300 years to get our independence back so a few more days, weeks or a year or two won’t make any difference.
Nicola says,
“So I can confirm that the Scottish Government will establish a Citizens Assembly.
It will bring together a representative cross section of Scotland, with an independent chair ”
would love to see Stu as part of the Citizens Assembly,
would also wonder where the f@ck in Scotland you will find an independent chair,maybe have to go abroad,as long as it`s no some corrupt Lord or Judge .
Just watched the ITV news report on Nicola’s speech. It was abominable as the context was a complete load of “no demand for independence” cobblers, polls showing no movement and they had the temerity to interview some Leithers (where the SNP gained a council seat last week with the Greens second against collapsed Tory/Labour vote)as some sort of evidence for anti independence sentiment. ITVshoud be watched.
They and STV are getting worse than BBC
Hey, what about if Nicola agrees to vote for May’s Withdrawal Agreement in return for Section 30?
Or would Nicola not go for that as the UK being in the EU is more important to the SNP than Scotland leaving the UK?
Just a thought.
A lot of folk commenting appear to be under the misapprehension that “strategy” is something that is always planned out in advance. This isn’t the case, as open systems (e.g. life, politics), are complex and chaotic. Strategies have to be responsive to real-life circumstances, if they hope to be successful.
http://my2.ewb.ca/site_media/static/library/files/1177/of-strategies-deliberate-and-emergent.pdf
@ Ghillie. Eh? I was referring to some btl comments that SNP politicians aren’t interested in independence any more, being too engaged with being in “power” and having good salaries. So I was refuting that view.
@Ghillie
Shame that her speech appears to have went over the top of the heads of many. It seems clear to me, Holyrood plan to legislate with a bill for another Independence referendum without waiting for a Section 30 order.
A Section 30 order would be good but regardless Scotland and it’s people will have their voice heard on this Brexshit fuck up that is being forced upon them
Basically the Scottish government ARE fighting for the right of all citizens to have another say even if Westminster will try their best to deny it.
I’m of the opinion that this is the best thing that could have happened, there will now be a showdown. Are the people of Scotland sovereign?
This question will need to be answered and I think today is the first step in doing so. Let’s wait and see.
It is normal legal practice to test a claim beforehand yet the SNP ( stuffed with lawyers) ‘ apparently want to wait until just before they intend to dispute it to test the legality of whether Scotland is sovereign.
This is just a load of bollocks.
If Scotland was sovereign we would already be independent.
Stop making it up to suit your argument in defence of a discredited SNP
@Brian
…………………./´¯/)
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………./’/…/…./……./¨¯\
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………\……………..’…../
……….”…\………. _.·´
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Having just celebrated my 80th birthday I have more reason than most to be impatient for Independence, however there is no point in going for an immediate referendum unless the polls show Yes at consistently very close to or over 50%. I assume the SNP are aware of the current state of the polls.
There is a good argument that a strong Yes campaign will achieve the magical 50%+1, (after all the last campaign took us from below 30% to 45%), but for that campaign we have to get the conditions right. I believe Nicola has set out clearly what she wants to do to lead up to a referendum . (Although the Citizens Forum is an unnecessary distraction at this time.).
The SNP is the bedrock and together with the Yes campaign we will win next time.
@Brian
Thought you had work in the morning? You tosser.
What age are you thepnr?
Dot to dot!
Oh, come on
I thought you promised everyone you would ignore me thepnr?
Here’s some scientific Brexitology looking at the emergent political values of Brexitania.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/casp.2375
Brexit and emergent politics: In search of a social psychology
Thepnr, I have decided that you are such a sad twat that you probably sit up all night to ensure you get the last word on the thread so I will stay awake and ensure you don’t!
Thepnr @ 11.11
Also,if I’m understanding it correctly…
If Holyrood was writing the Indy ref legislation WITH a section 30 order in place,Westminster would have input into our legislation?
As it stands they are not involved!!!
A section 30 will be put in place after Holyrood Only legislation is approved.
They had been invited to participate and said ” now is not the time” so it’s going ahead without them!!
3 years of wasted time. No explanation of why they didn’t do this 2 years ago. Nicola doesn’t want a referendum before the next term of government.
The cat is oot ra bag. They want another mandate in 2021. I am utterly scunnered with Nicola. She no longer speaks for me.
Love to see an Indyref2 without a Section 30.
maybe you are all kidding yourselves….the SNP couldn’t even run the benefits control they obtained from WM
Brian @ 11.28
Wrong … That’s me, and K1, and Cameron, and Cactus!!!
We’re the recognised night shift and are fully paid up members of the awkward squad…
Whits yer point…?
This time!!
Aside ALL that, Kudos in recognising the brilliance of Frank Millers TDKR. One of the best comic book novels ever penned and illustrated. Batman gave Superman a pure dullion and sparkled the big cape. Let’s hope the Scottish Electorate get charged also and knock the UK into history.
So you don’t work or you think you control the site?
Whits your point?
And one for those of you with a sense of self-preservation and the time to inform themselves and others.
The politics and economics of Brexit
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13501763.2018.1467957
Don’t waste your time with the night shift crew
Apparent there is no desire for another referendum, but the in 2016 election the number of people that actually voted SNP increased
Constituency votes
2011 902,915
2016 1,059,897
List votes
2011 876,421
2016 953,587
So it would seem the unionist and MSM is lying (again), more actual people wanted an independence referendum in 2016 than did in 2011.
What was the % turn out?
Brian @ 11.33
The SNP and Holyrood could run a Benefit system .. Easily…
It’s no rocket science,the Westminster Government managed to set one up and run it for years… I mean if they can do it trained monkeys could..
What is difficult to do is to run a small part of a benefit syatem, marry it up with a larger system who is trying to stymie the system and play with the poorly paid employees who implement it…
Don’t oversimplify that which is subjective,otherwise you look a fool…
Just because you vote SNP does not mean you want Independence
Brian I might be in Los Angeles. Work it out. I thought you had given up in Independence so should you not be heading off? Remember your dummy lol
Really, you don’t work but your an expert on everything!
Aye really don’t waste yer time Brian,ye haven’t the wit!
I will never give up on Independence, I have just given up on the SNP… I support the Green Party now.
A party with A principled leader
Tom Gordon of the Herald knows exactly what this statement today by Nicola Sturgeon means but he just can’t bring himself to say it in print.
http://archive.fo/4j5sS
He has completely ignored the fact that Westminster must challenge any referendum bill passed by Holyrood in court in order to declare it outwith the competence of the Scottish parliament.
Nicola Sturgeon knows exactly what she is doing, this is the most blatant “come on then” vision that could be sent. It looks like we may be going to court in my opinion if Westminster refuse to acknowledge Scottish sovereignty and the right to determine our own destiny.
I won’t waste it oan you hen as you’re just a tit
@Brian
Well if you vote for a party that’s manifesto says independence then you must be particularly dim witted if you vote for them and are still a unionist. Caught out were you?
The % turnout is irrelevant. The claim is less people want independence, the total vote went up. More people voted for independence, you can try and deny it but it will still be true.
So why is she making us wait two years to find out who is right in court then thepnr?
Oh dear you are stupid you tosser
Brian @ 11.42
I rest my case… Voting SNP and not seeing that independence is a possible result,is as stupid as David Cameron’s sure thing referendums…. Seriously up your game man,this is no Murdoch rag your commenting on!
Never heard of tactical voting you clown
Brian
So how would you deal with protecting Scotland from the full-English Brexit? The one that Scotland voted against. The same Scotland that voted to remain part of Britain in 2014, partly in order to protect their EU citizenship.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/02/13/long-read-brexit-and-the-future-of-the-british-model-of-democratic-capitalism/
When did you stop working hen?
Are you getting benefit money?
Two bedrooms?
Mobility car?
stupid you tosser
Now I see why you support Mr Harvey, You should tweet him, he seems to like flavoury retweets.
Ah I’m a hen again…that sounds familiar…
You’ve never been able to take me on have ye…
Bloody shame too.
I love to play with my food in the wee sma hoors!!l
Scotland does not deserve protecting if they believe in Sturgeon.
The Act of Union has been broken,fight it in court now.
Not a court case in two years or more
Oh dear, another Sturgeon feminist.
I suppose you congratulated Kezia too
Oh! Brian’s losing the rag, he’s started to just insult everyone now.
Where’s Cactus when you need him.
Brian @ 11.54
We don’t have any witnesses for Court , will you do it?
Love from Ben x
Mr Harvey got you your statement from Sturgeon.
If he had not demanded one she wouldn’t have given it today.
She treats you all like shit…then I suppose you deserve to be.
@Brian
That’s an awful lot of pish been dribbled. Mibbee time for bed aye.
Liz g is now speaking in rhymes….take it she’s the female cactus.
Another alcoholic bum
Fuck off thepnr. Go and play with your sturgeon dolly in bed
Thepnr @ 11.46
Funny you should say that.
I can remember Nicola saying she felt that this would end up in court…I just can’t remember where and when???
Just be all my night shifts messing with my memory 🙂
Ask for your report from the Royal ed then
@Brian
Oh that hurt LOL
Noo who do we know who dishes oot random insults like Brian lol
Well don’t stick the dolly where the sun don’t shine then
Well done Ronnie
Brian @ 11.59
Yeah,Yeah,Yeah,
We know the script,canny argue worth a shit,so get more and more outrageous till somebody report’s ye to the Rev,and he let’s ye of the hook because he banned yer arse…
Have ye ever thanked him fur saving ye, enquiring minds want to know?
Well done Liz g
@ Thepnr.
” come on then “.
Absolutely bang on, and they do have to challenge the bill. We can expect lots of Gordon type comment and opinion spouted as fact, its illegal, its not competent( remember the continuity bill ) the media and liblabtory will lay this on in spades. Nicola is taking Westminster head on, time the Yes movement fired a warning shot at the media the Britnat parties in Scotland.
Golf nut
Here here
Brian if you hadn’t already noticed gave up his membership of the SNP tonight. He doesn’t want Independence if political parties can’t be trusted.
He’s decided though to give both votes to the Greens whatever that means. There have been a few posters on this article that are pretty much just like like Brian. The main difference being that Brian is as thick as two short planks and the others are now keeping a low profile.
Brian, I must thank you for tonight’s entertainment, definitely better than the telly. Keep it up! If you can 🙂
Thepnr,
I Can honestly say your are the most opinionated gobshite on here who hasn’t got a fucking clue and is basically a total arsehole who cannot abide freedom of speech.
If I were you ( thank God I’m not) I would do as you said to me…FUCK OFF.
You bring nothing to the table and in all likelihood turn people off the notion of Independence if it is supported by knobheads like you……that a good summation Ronnie?
Brian @ 12.07
Why,thank you Brian,if you really do want to be able to keep up to the debate standards on here,and I think that ye do!!
Could I suggest starting at the less challenging comments sections of the Murdoch press and working yer way up…
Rev’s first rule for btl comments is “Write as if an undecided voter is reading”.
Murdoch doesn’t own any press dear
Brian pretendy green, pretendy ex snp. Too ashamed to say he is a britnationalist.
Puir wee sowel.
I am as green as the grass in your garden wee man.
Oh sorry, you’re probably up a 17th storey multi in Ruchazie
Well helloooooh there Brian, cheers for summoning me, how’s your night going Brian, pray tell me something about yourself, kindly share a little something with us Brian, ah don’t even know ye pal
Cheers Brian
@Brian
I’m feeling sorry for you now, I understand how lonely you are and are just seeking attention. All I can say is try not to let things bother you.
Sometimes it’s best just to take a deep breath and let the pressure that’s built up inside release. So big breath out Ahhhhhh. Feel any better 🙂
Well for starters , the night shift are a bunch of knuckle dragging morons who think they know how Sturgeon thinks when they’ve probably ever had a days work between any of them
Mornin’ Thepnr, how’s yerself bro, lots of emotion on here tonight, excellent stuff, ah feed aff the stuff
Thepnr I will day feel better once I hear you’ve had your last breath….now that would help me
Did you know any Clarks from Ruchazie Brian?
And in return can I suggest you take constipation pills
I certainly did
I certainly did.
CameronB Brodie. It was UK election to to stay or leave the EU. I do understand fundamentalist fascists find this difficult to digest just like the 2014 referendum. It is in the nature of some people to think only stupid people vote contrary to themselves.
Remember to watch FMQ’s later today, about high noon
https://www.scottishparliament.tv/
Keep posting posters
Did any of them have a picture of King Billy on his white horse on the wall above the mantelpiece?
No he didn’t…did you in your flat?
Ah well and never mind.
Mantelpiece is ever so quaint so I’m guessing your over 70 years old
Thepnr says:
24 April, 2019 at 10:55 pm
@yesbot
You’re another dribbling pish. Fuck OFF.
———–
How so?
As we know, ah week issa lang time in politics
5) “And then, they, the ukUnionists fight with each other”
We’ve yet to get tae oor final laugh hehe
Then we WIN
Forget him yesbot he is a worthless piece of shit
Though I’m not an international lawyer, legal doctrine would appear to be on our side. However, giving birth to a nation in the courtroom, is less attractive than by popular demand, IMHO. It is also placing your future in another’s hands, which aren’t guaranteed to be unbiased or competent (see Rev. v Kez).
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236726687_The_Right_to_be_Taken_Seriously_Self-Determination_in_International_Law
Hey Cactus
Brian seems to have overdosed on constipation pills…
Do you know of any such pills..
And do you know of any such pills so good ye’d take them twice?
Who in the world would deliberately want to be constipated..?
Although,having said that it certainly explain a lot about British Nationalists…?
I’m no the junkie oan here doll
@Cactus
A tune you MUST hear but more importantly watch. Take it from me, a worthless piece of shit that this is worth watching.
Tell me I’m wrong Brian LOL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GD-5mRyaJw
Hi Brian, do you think you’ll make it along to the Glasgow rally for the march from Kelvingrove Park tae oor Glasgow Green on the 4th May, it’s a crackin’ day out, come and join us dude, cheers
It depends if Patrick Harvie is going Cactus.
Obv Sturgeon isn’t as she prefers LGBT marches
Have you yerself ever been tae any of oor marches / rally’s before Brian, cheers
Yes…that was amazing
And here’s some Scottish research folk might not be aware of.
International Political and Legal Implications of Scottish Independence
https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_270495_en.pdf
https://www.gla.ac.uk/study/search/?query=International%20Political%20and%20Legal%20Implications%20of%20Scottish%20Independence&level=
Quite a few Cactus yes
Which marches / rallies have ye been tae Brian, whom were your favourite speakers / musical acts? It’s a crackin’ day out isn’t it? Cheers
Thepnr
Yesbot is one of us… Don’t let the influx of idiots cloud yer judgement Alex…
,…………..
Yesbot, there’s been a lot of strange names turn up today,and you rarely comment,this is a genuine mistake by Alex..
Just ask Cactus…Thepnr is ok…
But as you can see he gets the brunt of stuff quite often..
I’ll introduce you the next time you two are at the same night out,you’ll see xxx
Top tune Thepnr, oor pipes really work well with his music
As CBB would enthusiastically tell us there certain characteristics that people trying to disguise themselves can’t suppress, changing roles/names doesn’t work, the original person always rears its head. (I’m not telling you the clues….!) 🙂
New troll for the nth time is back, stupid as ever the poor bugger.
My marches have been in the Capital Cactus.im from east lothian. I like to hear Alyn Smith & Tommy Sheppard.
I also have a lot of time for Tommy Sheridan.
We are charting new legal territory folks, with an unpredictable and unscrupulous opponent, i.e. Westminster/Whitehall. I kind of trust the EU and the ECJ but I trust myself more. Independence is never given, the people must demand it.
Determining Customary International Law:
The ICJ’s Methodology between Induction, Deduction and Assertion
https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/26/2/417/423002
Today I avoided entirely all political news so on hearing the take from radio Scotland on Nicola Sturgeon’s speech was massively downbeat about our way forward.
Then tonight I read this article and the comments (hahaha I is a glutton for punishment) and felt, really cheered! 😀
I know that may sound strange but going down a dark hole then fighting my way back up I came to a realisation that the FM has a plan and that plan is in action and I don’t believe she is deluded, feart, scared or thinks Independence is an unassailable dream.
Of course there have been moments, I cannot deny, that I felt we were further away than ever but watching her speech, listening to replies both at HR and btl here it’s just become awfully clear to me that she is not giving up and neither am I.
With the National campaign starting and new website set up we all have to do our bit and that’s why I’m going out leafleting this weekend and have already stated I will canvass.
No going back, no more defeatist talk from me. Onwards and upwards…
Just to add to Liz’s comment (hey Liz x) Yesbot is good bro
There’s just a lot of the necessary passion in the air
Vent it out folks…
Thanks Cactus
“What polling have you saw that shows the surge in support for independence that we need to get us over the line?”
POLLING COULD BE SOLIDLY 99-1 AND IT WON’T MATTER TWO WANKS OF A GNAT’S COCK IF WE DON’T HAVE THE POWER TO HOLD THE FUCKING VOTE.
What is the MATTER with some people?
Thepnr
Andre’s very popular with a certain demographic, good choice. 😉
Well said AGAIN Stu
Excellent stuff Brian, at was at the one in Edinburgh 2, yeah they are really good speakers, ye should get yerself and a crowd along to Glasgow for a week n Saturday the 4th, don’t let any politician put ye off not going
It’s no about them, it’s about us, you and me like
What’s yer most favourite thing about Scotland Brian?
Some more international law.
https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/20/1/111/444727
The passion Cactus. Thanks again. It is about folks like you and me.the politicians all get rich but we normal folks live day to day and it’s us that make and will make Scotland what it is.
I will come to Glasgow mate. Definitely.
What a brilliant speech from Nicola Sturgeon and of course throwing down the gauntlet to the lazy, carping Unionists at Holyrood is a master stroke. Too bad however that no one in the MSM decided to broadcast her speech and strange, to say the very least, that not one link on this Wings blog publicized it either. Instead it was replaced by a pathetic, derogatory ”plan of little action” comic book strip. What’s on earth is going on here?
Stu says:- ‘’In short, nothing changed today. The SNP is still frozen in headlights, hoping for some sort of deliverance to show up from an external source. It still clings to the belief that reason alone can win the day. The evidence is that that is not the case. Theresa May does not appear to be the sort of person who changes her mind readily in response to logic. Ironically, the best hope for Scottish independence may now be Nigel Farage.’’
‘’The SNP is still frozen in the headlights.’’ Really? What a ridiculous comment to make. I reckon that the stance that Nicola Sturgeon has taken is more in line with, as she says, that ”the UK might still leave the EU before October, it might leave in October, it might seek another extension or it might not leave at all.” And of course who in their right mind is going to try and sell Independence to the ”undecided” or prior No voters when you have no clear comparisons to make …. ”to rush into an immediate decision before a Brexit path has been determined would not allow for an informed choice to be made.”
If support for Independence was over 50% right now it would be ‘’most helpful’’ for Nicola Sturgeon and the Independence movement. So instead of belittling her ‘’plan’’ what about your ‘’plan’’, Stu? … ‘’deliverance from an external source’’ … being the Wings book that we contributed to and are still waiting for? Any chance of getting an update on that? As to Theresa May, she’s on the way out so why mention her at all and why promote someone like Nigel Farage on here? You may say that the latter point in relation to Farage is not how it should be read / understood however it could be easily misconstrued by people visiting this site, imo.
……………………………………
@ sassenach says at 6:54 pm …. ”Not quite sure how to ‘take’ this thread. My views coincide with Jack Collatin @ 5-15? However I think the Revs articles have changed since his court judgement came out. I think he may be suffering some delayed ‘reaction’. I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but I’m rather concerned for ‘Wings’.
You’re not on your own sassenach, however I reckon that the ”change” relates to something else altogether and came about quite some time ago.
…………………………………..
@ Dr Jim says at 5:01 pm … ”And it’s goodbye from me to Wings over Scotland. I just saw what you did there Rev, perfect Farage tactic.”
Dr Jim you’re one of the most influential posters on here. Don’t even consider leaving, if for no other reason than that’s what ”they” want. Don’t let them win.
…………………………………….
@ Gaavster says at 4:39 pm …. ”Interesting alternative angle on today’s proceedings here, from around 8 months ago…”
https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/2018/09/07/do-you-see-it/
Well worth a read. Thanks for that Gaavster.
……………….
………… On a more positive note:-
Stu’s Wee book, which we have already forked out for, is going out to 1 million households in Scotland. The SNP are planning to reach EVERY household. Between them we will surely make a massive difference.
Get on board and sign up ….. ”Pledge your support for independence”
And donate, donate, donate.
…”Our plan is to distribute An Independent Scotland: Household Guide to every household – all 2,460,000 of them! To achieve that, I am asking you to join me in making a donation to this specific project.”
http://www.yes.scot/
…………………………
Subscribe to the National. The ONLY newspaper supporting Independence.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/04/24/support-the-nationals-10000-steps-campaign-and-get-your-own-wee-ginger-dug/
……………………………
Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp:- ‘BREAKING: FM says Brexit means a referendum in the lifetime of this parliament.’
http://www.businessforscotland.com/breaking-fm-says-brexit-means-a-referendum-in-the-lifetime-of-this-parliament/
Another key activist remaining positive and inspirational.
WGD:- ‘We have work to do”
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/04/24/we-have-work-to-do-2/
………………………..
From a poster on his site. It’s been covered before on here but worth considering again.
@ Maria says ….
“She wasn’t so clear in her statement on how to get that agreement”
According to the Charter of the United Nations on Decolonisation,
Article 3 states:
“Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence”
In my view, the excuse “Now is not the time” goes in direct violation of article 3 of the UN charter.
Article 5 states:
“Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom”
In my opinion, refusing a section 30 order and the transfer of power to Holyrood to celebrate that referendum and implementing the result is in direct violation of article 5 of the charter of the united nations.
The UK is a signatory of the United Nations Charter. I think refusing that Section 30 order or the transfer of powers to Holyrood will go in direct violation of the Charter of the United Nations.
On the other hand, Scotland is one of the only 2 signatories of the Treaty of Union, an international treaty that can be unilaterally revoked. There is nothing that the Kingdom of England can do to stop Scotland dissolving that treaty. Scotland may like to have a section 30 order but it does not need one in the same way Cameron did not need one from the EU to hold EU ref. Should the current FM of England or the English cabinet deny a Section 30 order, what the Scottish gov and parliament should do is threatening with pass legislation in Holyrood for the immediate unilateral dissolution of the treaty of union. Scotland’s claim of right indicates that it is Scotland who decides how Scotland is governed, not the kingdom of England. If I was the FM of Scotland, I would give the English FM two choices in rather clear terms:
“Or you issue immediately the section 30 order and you retain a slim chance of preserving the UK if YES does not succeed, or say goodbye to the UK for real because we will dissolve the treaty and the UK and will have a confirmatory referendum afterwards with international observers on our own terms. You choose”
Where would we be without passion Brian eh, might aye enquire if you practice religion yerself Brian
It’s cool if ye dinnae wanna share with us, just that it’s topical again
Have ye thought of a plan of action for Scotland yerself
Cheers
I am a Roman Catholic Cactus.
I do not discriminate on religion.
Brian must be a bot, surely?
I want an Independent Scotland with new political parties.
I do not see me voting for the SNP in that as I do not agree with all their policies.
Why am I a not?
Bot
Thanks for sharing that with us Brian, ah’ve never really been into the religion maself (ah wiznay brought up on Glasgow football like) probably ah guid thing
SO it seems we’ve progressed and came far from yer original opening towards me, mate
What say you, Brian?
Cheers
I strongly believe the SNP were wrong and still are wrong to have stopped the sale of council housing to their tenants who have probably paid tens of thousands of pounds in rent to the local councils to live there.
Brian @ 1.01
Well aw the besmirchin of of the name of the good people of wings that ye have done here tonight.
Yer confession should be a doezy eh!
Oh Sarah! @ 10.58 pm and 11.10 pm
I am so sorry!
I completely misread your statement.
And of course it didn’t fit with what you’d been saying which is why I was suddenly jangled – BUT in fact you said exactly the opposite of what I stupidly misread!
Sorry =)
I’m perfectly fine Cactus. I just felt I was not given a very warm welcome for a newbie.
All I said was that I was disappointed in the SNP after today.
I want independence. I think no political party should rest on their laurels…..they are supposed to work for us.
Liz g says:
25 April, 2019 at 12:42 am
Thepnr
Yesbot is one of us
—————–
Thanks Liz. Independence always the focus, cannae understand why folks degrade me here.
Petra, PNR. It hurts. Sometimes wonder about the motives.
Anyways good to hear from you, hope to see you next week. + Cactus thx also.
I was attacked for no reason before you came on Liz. Unfairly in my opinion.
I am new to the site and I was not expecting to be greeted in that manner.
Yes I got over zealous but was defending my position.
We all have our opinions and we are all entitled to speak our opinions.
I support Independence but am a socialist.
Ok Cactus…. You’ve got this… I can see that…
Till we meet again 🙂
Ye might like tae review yer earlier comment at 11:59pm, mate
Whit’s that awe aboot Brian…
What say you?
Cheers
Ignore the trolls who want you to leave the SNP. They want us to replay the Battle of Dunbar where we dismiss our professional army, the SNP, because they are not Independista enough, and then abandon our winning position by charging down the slope prematurely to a dreadful defeat.
I used to play a bit of chess. I remember a game where we reached move 8 and my opponent still hadn’t moved his central pawns. I was all over him. A certain win I thought. And then he started to move his centre pawns forward. And they just kept coming and coming. In the end I was crushed. My opponent wisely spent his time building his positional strength, delaying his attack. When the attack eventually came he was so strong there was nothing I could do.
We sit in a favourable position. We just need to wait for the enemy’s internal disarray to fully express itself. Then we launch our attack.
In the meantime we build and build our positional strength like the good chess player. We each individually need to work at convincing as many as possible. We have to do this work anyway.
Nicola has given us a commitment. More importantly she has also given us the time we need.
When the time comes, we will win. Like the good chess player.
I withdraw that comment completely and unreservedly.
It was made against a background of some kind of threat that you were coming onto the site.
Remember this is the very first time I have been in here.
I know nothing about you and have never read any other posts.
I was not treated with respect prior to yourself or Liz g coming online.
In fact thepnr was very rude and told me to fuck off for having an opinion.
I do not think this is helpful in attracting others.
I do not need to support either sturgeon or the SNP to believe in independence.
Brian @ 1.13
I will argue/debate “till the cows come home”,as they say.
But don’t get personal…
Stay on the subject and keep disagreeing if ye must,but don’t name call, you loose every time if you do…
I really ment I’ll discussed things all night,that’s my schedule not my vices…. Do you see?
Say what you believe and why you believe it and we can debate.. One exception… Utter Pish … Is a back handed compliment,you’ve arrived basically…
So (being that poet) let’s start again and don’t call me hen!
Cheers Liz g, thanks. I do not think the spat with thepnr will be repaired though. He did jump in and attack me telling me to fuck off.
That isn’t good for the site at all.
Thank you for your unreserved retraction and apology Brian, ah was thinking it over and wondering why you made that insinuation of aye and my friends in the first place if you don’t even know me…
Yet you state:
Your earlier post at 11:59pm suggests different, dude
What say you?
Cheers
Thepnr @ 11.22 pm 🙂
Oh you were saving that for a special occasion weren’t you =)
Well chosen.
That is the post I am referring to Cactus..
I have never been on here before.
It was hitting out at those hitting at me I am not a troll or a ("Tractor" - Ed) or anything else.
I am not aware whether you drink or don’t drink.
It was a throw away comment just like a later one about junkies.
I do not know anyone on here or their circumstances.
This all was kicked off by thepnr whom was extremely rude to me and then got others to come in and assist him.
I will NOT be attacked on here by anyone. I have unreservedly apologised to you personally.
I however will almost certainly not receive one in return from thepnr.
The concept and principle of self-determination still lack clear definition in international law, but their morality is pretty clear cut, IMHO.
THE CHALLENGES OF CONTEMPORARY
SELF-DETERMINATION IN INTERNATIONAL LAW
Abstract
The history of diplomacy and theory of political state shows that the modern international legal principle of self-determination, in the current state-centric formal international political system, regulates inter and intrastate relations. Therefore the international legal principle of self-determination contributes to the national and international order.
The self-determination is highly contentious, irregular and lacks a degree of certitude. This causes a threat to international peace and security when overlooked, or implemented immoderately, and without goodwill. Such a jurisprudential disposition leads to doubts over the legal credentials of the political concept of self-determination, suggesting that it invokes moral imperatives. This view runs contrary to the findings of this research.
Political and legal moderation is shown to be essential in the administration of international law and therefore that of self-determination due to three distinctive elements: the humanity, the political state and the formal state-centric international political system. The components and determinants of society, political, and legal rules are distinctive thus rendering each system sui generis. Therefore no legal precept serving all three distinctive domains of order can achieve certitude and regular application, found in dissimilar legal systems, and be subject to fair criticism arising from comparative analysis.
Although international law is sui generis legal system, the current challenges of self-determination can be resolved by the deployment of administrative measures and values within formally empowered international political system.
The hypothesis is that the conditionality of legitimate components and determinants of international legal principle of self-determination, in the current formal state-centric international political system, does not deprive its jural imperatives. Once the hypothesis is proven jural imperative of self-determination in all three domains of humanity, the political state and the formal international order will be self-evident. Secondly, if all three domains are unregulated by international jural imperatives, they would be pitted against each other’s interest, and compete to subjugate each other.
The proof of the hypothesis leds to several sustainable conclusions.
First the transcendental jural cohesion provided by the three principles; legitimacy, democratic accountability and rule of law, in the said three domains of humanity, the state and the formal international order, forms the theoretic fusion of their pursued ends, as well as being found in practice as state action in the current UN era.
Second, self-determination also provides stability in diversity, and conflict of interests, aggravated by the constancy of change in national and international political systems.
Third, self-determination when administered moderately and with goodwill, provides the ultimate solution to international peace and security by placing greater international responsibility on the individual, and collective of individuals, and the state and international community, within the formal international political system. Thus, international law may be gentle civilised after all.
https://sas-space.sas.ac.uk/6402/1/Mustafa,%20Ahmet.docx
Allow me to post the above again Brian…
Your earlier post at 11:59pm suggests different…
SO why have you applied a perceived character upon me
From what you’ve written, you know of my wandering ways on Wings
What say you?
Cheers
Word
Ignore Brian…the Britnat troll.
Morning Grafter, howde do, hope ye can make it along to Glasgow on the 4th May, cheers
Listen Cactus…I’ve explained. If you don’t want to accept as the truth that is up to you but this site does not belong to you or anyone else and I am not going round in circles again and again.
I detect from what you are saying that you may have a problem with alcohol and if that is the case then I am sincerely sorry.in that case it was a very unfortunate accusation.
If you do not accept then there is nothing we can do.
I will NOT be going fro the site and I will NOT be bullied by anyone.in my opinion thepnr is not a good advert for the site. Liz g even had to persuade whom that another posts was ‘allright’ that is unacceptable. He is abusing people until they lose their tempers and then come out with retorts which in my case was unfortunate.
I hope you accept the apology but if not then you go your way and I will go mine
I see your friend has just insulted me again…what’s with everyone on here Cactus.?
What you say about that dude?
Yesbot @ 1.12
Your welcome Yesbot…
I haven’t read back all the comments yet (caught on the phone,and you know who you are 🙂 ) but I came on to finding Thepnr getting it in the neck – Again – and saw your post!
I haven’t saw anything from Petra,but nevertheless I knew Alex (Thepnr) would be horrified to have upset another Winger unfairly…. Mind you he will pull no punches if he doesn’t agree,but that not the same as just dismissing you as a troll.
Tis a genuine mistake Yesbot,and I’m sure you will agree when you look back and see that he was pretty much a lone voice for most of the afternoon and evening when a lot of unfamiliar names turned up having a go!!I
Anyhoo..
Hope to see you at the march and we’ll catch up till then take care of you xxx
ALOT of very positive feedback on Twitter for our First Minister’s speech today 🙂
I think you are reading this correctly Thepnr =)
Hahahahaha hook, line and sinker Brian
Anybuddy that addresses ye as “Listen, your name” loses the debate
You lost your cool, dude
One has never been derogatory to you, ahm aye right Brian?
You changed the tone of YOUR conversation to ME
Why are you getting angry?
Thepnr is out of line in attacking people on their first visit.
I dont think this site is very good.
It appears if you don’t chime with the group then you not accepted.
That’s not the Scotland I want.
Brian, socialism and catholisism are verboten. SNP sorry no papes are an extreme form of right wingness who make the Tories seem like alter boys.
Kindly please Brian dinnae change the subject
Aye have never been derogatory to you, ahm aye right?
You changed the tone of YOUR conversation towards moi
Why are you coming across as being angry, Brian?
What made you go to there?
Wur just brainstorming
Hey there Cactus and Liz G 🙂
I think Rev Stu just fancied stirring things up a bit =)
He certainly flushed out the usual suspects!
And as usual got us talking and debating and working out our own opinions well away from the thought pollution of the MSM.
Oh right , thanks for that. Is that what it has been.
Well you’ve just convinced me…the site and the people on the site are not what I want for Scotland. Thanks for explaining that to me. I couldn’t work out why I was treated the way I was.
Hey Ghillie, ah LOVEly morning to you x, yer on the money
Cheers for nothing everyone, Mad Unionist just explained it all to me.
Shame.
Brian @ 1.25
Well the site (thankfully) is the Revs job to mind,so we’re free to do as we please till he says stop…
Therefore any spats are always repairable and don’t forget if sayin fuck off held any real power to make someone disengage Westminster would keep sayin it to us.
Why let it have that power over you?
E.G. You said some nasty things to me… Yet here I still am..
Can ye no get past the word’s and be contributing to the cause, if ye don’t agree that’s fine,tell us why, and tell us how you would do it differently… That’s surely why yer here cause ye cared enough to comment???
The political climate is tense and nerves are a bit fried through inaction. This is a grass-roots site, not AstroTurf like Vote NobOrders, expect things to get a bit ‘real’ from time-to-time. The effects of “symbolic violence”, such as psychological hostility and belittlement, has a very real damaging public impact. That’s a bonus of the yoonyawn that Better Together won’t tell you about.
Brian
Public political discourse is an academic subject all on its own. If you hadn’t sought to wind the forum up, you wouln’t have been telt where to go.
Political discourse as mediated and public discourse
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378216605001542
That’s cool Brian, Wings Over Scotland is an adult site, maybe this website isn’t for you, ah hope ye’ve enjoyed yer first time on here anyways, there’s some really good daily debates about Scotland a going on and we’ve aussi got Cairnstoon on a Saturday (unless the artist is abroad, or golfing)
Dinnae be deterred though, you always have the freedom to post
Stick around Brian, aye think aye like you x
THIS book is NOT for you, Brian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsKaLIWGS4I
The librarian’s name is “Koriander”
Ghillie @ 2.03
Hi hunny… I think yer right,but we all have to try.
We’ve nae media to speak of and we are left to work it through ourselves…
Sometimes I do think that the trolls and the instigators do us a great service in this… But what dae ah know :-).
Will I see he at the march Ghillie?
I came on with my opinion CameronB and was ridiculed by thepnr.
The first time I have ever posted.
I will continue to support Independence but not through this site.
I don’t think the site nor many of the contributors are what I see a fair and inclusive Scotland to be.
Liz g even had to tell thepnr that another poster he attached was ‘all right. That is not exactly welcoming to anyone.
I was winding up no one. I was voicing my opinions until thepnr jumped in and got abusive.
Liz g was very gracious and I think Cactus is a nice guy ( I really did not mean such offence)
If thepnr hadn’t intervened with accusations then none of tonight would have occurred.
I have learnt from tonight that Scotland is far from inclusive and far from the welcoming place I thought we were all striving for.
For someone who has voted for independence for many years to be accused of being a Britnat is offensive especially from people supposedly on the same side. What a shame.
Scotland is what each of us wants her to be, Brian
But all has already been revealed tonight
It’s been ah gas!
Tine for some more International Legal Theory?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228152058_The_Normative_Status_of_Self-Determination_in_International_Law_A_Formula_for_Uncertainty_in_the_Scope_and_Content_of_the_Right
Someone correct me if I’m wrong…
But after hours of thoughtful comments and a pledge to defend a position all night…
Brian bugged out on the strength of a 3 Mibbi 4 line post from mad unionist ?
A post so convincing a mind was changed… Mad Unionist…really!!! Bizarre doesn’t even cover it…
(Pisst…I think it was Cactus ( the male one ) really! 🙂
@Ealasaid
Thanks for that description, I didn’t watch the thing, but that’s exactly what I’d want Sturgeon to do. Never too early to be conciliatory and indeed as was said before the speech “inclusive”. And the curious thing is it shows a confidence in Independence being soon, the next steps have already started..
So the question is: Do Labour, Conservatives and LibDems want to contribute to Independent Scotland – or not?
Brian @ 2.20 Then defend yer position man…
Forget the insults they are of no consequence when it comes tae yer country surely?
Plenty of SNP sycophants to put a spin on what was a non event. I am off abroad as I have had it with the Sturgeon obfuscation. I am not hanging about eating the be patient shit any longer.
Hey Liz aye it’s been quite a night eh, och ahm just wondering why Brian appears to come across as angry when he’s posting, it’s weird like
What kind of music are you into Brian? Cheers
To me knowledge ah’ve never jousted with Brian before, yet the user made perceivedly knowledgeable derogatory marks about you and aye and this was Brian’s first time on WOS
Ah dinnae ken, something disney fit like right?
Brian
I’ve not checked back but I don’t think Thepnr would have piled in to you without feeling indirectly threatened. You certainly expressed hostility towards the FM. A lot of indy supporters feel protective of the FM and the movement, even non-SNP members. I agree, tempers do need to be held in check. Do you not agree though that you might have drawn the challenge?
Liz
My posts had nothing to do with PNR ..or him getting it in the neck, he just jumped in to denigrate.
I had posted disappointment with NS’s statement. The SNP/SG behaviour is perplexing.
What do you think about cancelling women as a sex? I simply cannot fathom this..?
Also why the hell is Lesley Evans still in a job, never mind joined at the hip with FM?
Hope we can catch up. All best xx
Ah’d like to dedicate THIS song tae mah new mate, Brian x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaZpZQG2z10
THIS could be us, dude, cheers
Hey Brian ah dinnae ken if that’s you aff for tonight
Come back in later today and give us a shout…
Ah’ve enjoyed our conversation
Try bookmarking Wings
Cheers
Cactus…..hope to see you in Glasgow mate.
And so glad the stupid comment has been put aside.
Having to get some kip as got hospital appointment tomorrow.
Cheers my friend
Anyways, basically speaking I’m dead flattered Sturgeon actually used the speech I sent her without changing a single word, and apparently she read it out very well.
Star pupil 🙂
Cactus…..hope to see you in Glasgow mate.
And so glad the stupid comment has been put aside.
Having to get some kip as got hospital appointment tomorrow.
Cheers my friend
SO we return you to debating Scotland’s independence…
What say YOU?
Hello Danny, didn’t you get banned?
Mornin’ yesindyref2, how’s yerself, hope ye can make it intae Glasgow on the 4rth
Ahm havin’ ah rare nicht ahm aye
Endorphinoids like 🙂
The only way will have to be a legal route and Nicola Sturgeon I believe has already ruled that out.
I am still a bit aggrieved that Alex Salmond ‘gave away’our right to declare Independence on gaining a majority of seats at Westminster as a bargaining chip to obtain the Section 30 from David Cameron.
As Thatcher had declared, all we had to do was vote for a majority of SNP MP’s as in her own words that negated the need for a Referendum.
Salmond likes a gamble but that was one he should not have made unilaterally.
@HMGovernment Legal Department
Any comment? You do support the international rule-of-law?
http://sam.gov.tr/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/BurakCopAndDoganEymirlioglu.pdf
Aye heard THIS 24 minute song on the radio last week, NOW sharing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMIk3xYaYo
Octavarian
Brian
That’s enough of your mince for one night, surely?
That should be Octavarium
Pieces of eight
It’s late
Latin
Is my info wrong?
That was a statement from an SNP MSP at a rally in edinburgh post 2014.
I have it on tape.
CameronB
Please extrapolate on what you mean?
Here’s a song from the back catalogue everybuddy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXkN3nJyWEA
When you couldn’t feel the pain
Yesbot @ 2.46
I suspect he was on the defensive Yesbot, Wings is a very different place now,the ” hi your new welcome aboard” has certainly gone,for good or bad I don’t know but we’ve been attacked so many times,it’s all we can do to verify each other as best we can.
Anyhoo …
Like wee ginger dug,I’m still trying to work through it all!!
As the mother of a gay child it hurts me dreadfully to think of anyone being denied their right’s.
Nevertheless as a mother I can see the problems with female spaces,tis a problem right enough…
At the moment though, the biggest problem I can see is the shutting down of the conversation..
We have a wee microcosm of it here in the Yes movement with the terms that we habitually use being called out!
There is no right or wrong in it,nevertheless,it matters!
I’m sure that we will work the gender issues out,and just from a personal point of view,and with reference to my own personal hobbie horse….
If everyone is secured in their own right’s within a written easily understood,with no ambiguity,Constitution,then they are more likely to be willing to live and let live.
It’s only when people are persuaded they could loose out that they kick back…. And usually at the wrong people….
So yes we’ve lots to talk about,so I too hope we catch up,stay well my friend xxx
Brian
From my perspective, which is reasonably well informed, your interpretation of events appears somewhat far-fetched an a bit contrived, IMHO. I simply think your opinion suggests an ambivalence to the project. Anyway, stick around and prove me wrong. 😉
@Cactus
It’s a definite maybe 🙂
Apart from that, I should maybe have caught up with all the postings from 10pm before commenting, seems evillyding is udder komtorl.
Ho hum.
Liz g and Cactus,
Is my post of 3.09 am common knowledge as far as you are aware as CameronB has taken exception to it.
I don’t recall who the minister was but I have got it on tape and can easily look it out.
I thought everyone knew that was the case but CameronB thinks I am trying to irritate.
Why are people taking exception to perfectly reasonable posts?
25 April 02.46
Sorry misspelled; it is of-course: Leslie Evans the first women to hold the post of permanent secretary in the Scottish Government.
The question remains; why is she still in situ?
Ahm no even ah fan of this band, though many are
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6cyIG0CRQg
It was of a time
CameronB,
I refer you to my post of 3.36 am.
Hey Cactus @ 2.39
He doesn’t add up because..
Brian is Danny the guy from about a month or two ago..
Just wait you’ll see …
Liz g
You are accusing m e of being someone I am not.
Why are you doing this?
I am due an apology
That’s no mah debate dude, yours to discuss directly
Dae ye like the Abba Zaba anybuddy?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTo7OgXkbe8
Brian..
As Nicola well knows, A,Thatcher,pronouncement is no more the law than yours or mine.
Why would, or should, we give it any more weight than any other thing she said?
She was wrong and lied about so much,why then should any Scot believe her on this?
I tell you what Liz and Cameron,
I’m sure you will be ambivalent to the National but I hope Rev is reading this as I will be contacting a reporter tomorrow to tell them how as a new contributor I was treated on the blog today and tonight.
I will show them all the screenshots of how it came about that I was vilified as a troll and a Britnat.
And the way others were too.
I am going to hospital tomorrow for serious treatment of my blood disorder.
I know the Rev won’t be happy as the National will take another swipe at him but that is down to you. I will name both Liz g and CameronB.
You having nothing about you which would have anyone new want to contribute.
Hope Rev loses it with you and kicks you both off his site
Brian @ 3.43
Why… Ok
I apologise,you identify as Brian and I will accept you as him…
Now can you answer what you’ve been asked?
Brian @ 3.53
Oh behave your self child…
Hi Brian
Just for the record, aye re-refer you to your earlier 11:59pm, Brian
It works both ways dude
Cheers
Brian @ 3.53
And the intelligent thing to do,when having a hissy fit, is to by pass the National and use the contact button at the top of the page.
Go on I dare ye…
Get ready for another bad news story Rev. Your site is populated by bullies who are ruining it with their accusations to anyone new venturing to come on.
Online bullying is a criminal offence under the communications act. I will let the National explain it to the public
See you too then Cactus
Brian
No “exception” taken here Brian, my natural setting is “Skeptic”. Sorry if I’ve caused you to feel excluded but you are selling mince.
“I am still a bit aggrieved that Alex Salmond ‘gave away’our right to declare Independence on gaining a majority of seats at Westminster as a bargaining chip to obtain the Section 30 from David Cameron.”
That’s just make-believe, Alex Salmond couldn’t give away anything without appropriate legal authority. He had no such authority. Section 30 was an agreement between governments, not a derogation of power from Westminster. Show me the legal statute that Scots derive their authority from to declare indy, based on the number of SNP seats in Westminster. Bet you can’t.
I was only repeating what an SNP MSP stated in front of a rally in Edinburgh and as such I am entitled in law to rely on that information as given.
It may or may not be fact but I thought it was fact given that he is a prominent minister.
To be honest, I don’t really fucking care now. I’m sick of the bullying on here and Rev has been advised
Hahaha you’ve made mah night Brian, ah thought ye were mah mate, whit’s changed?
Are ye insinuating aye ahm a bully Brian, that’s priceless
Listen Brian, why are you SO angry?
Whose the bully, mate?
Hey Liz, how’s yer week going, not long till we go walkies again 🙂
Cameron..
Are the National now law enforcement??
Admin th a friend 🙂
Brian
You’ve accomplished your task, we don’t all have heads that button at the back though. Off you pop.
Ha Ha
That was Gaelic for
Askin fur a friend… 🙂
Cactus, as you intimated to me that you indeed have a problem with alcohol then my comment would be ‘fair comment’
However, online bullying is a criminal offence under the communications act and will have effect on the website and those involved.
The Scottish government also have a zero tolerance policy with regard to online bullying.
Cactus
I’m lookin forward tae oor walk Cactus,loads of ma freends are commin tae…. Some of them newbies 🙂
Oh not just the National, the record, the sun, etc.
Maybe even Kezia so she can take another swipe.
You be famous….for thirty seconds
Brian @ 4.11
Then you may be in big trouble for the things you said about me Brian…
From what Cactus said to me re that that was also fair comment.
In any case take up with A lawyer
Ahhh, sweet Brian, the gift that keeps on giving more, LOVE you x
First time for you on Wings you say eh haha
THIS is bliss, ahhh
Ah reckon weel get well over 100,000+ Peoples of Scotland again Liz!
It’s gonna be an excellent day
Everybuddy is gonna be there
Sadly I don’t think we’ll make it through on the 4th (be with you!) but we’ll be rooting for you all 🙂
And cheering for Scotland 🙂
One of those nights.
https://www.e-ir.info/2014/05/02/does-self-determination-entail-an-automatic-right-to-secession/
Wow, it’s been quite ah day and night, same again laters Wingers
Ahm powerin’ doon till twelve noon
Nite all (you too Brian)
X
Nite Cactus
Night night Cactus =)
Night night folks =)
Aw Ghillie so sad you cant make it,but there always the next one 🙂 …
Nite Cactus xxx
Brian
It’s most certainly not fair comment from you at 11.59 Brian!
But I’m curious to know why I’d need a lawyer and you need the National,do ye think so highly of them?
Sweet Dreams Ghillie xxx
I hate them. They want funding to keep the anti Scottish Herald propped up?
Brian
Are you going to tell them that when you are complaining about the Revs blogg?
My name is Brian, not Danny nor any other name.
I have never been on here before no matter who thinks otherwise.
I am not a troll, A Britnat or anything similar.
I fucking hate the Union Jack flag.
I am angry and I have a right to be angry.
It’s personal and I don’t wish to get into it.
I want Independence as much or probably more than anyone else on Wow.
I detest everyone who puts Scotland down.
I don’t buy any food items with Union Jack logos.
I do not shop in Asda, Tesco, Morrisons, Sainsbury or Marks & Spencer.
I do not pay the tv license.
I do not watch Sky tv or BBC.
I will NOT be going away and I WILL be posting when I want to but I probably won’t react to anyone who disagrees with me. My posting for others to see will be enough. It’s been a learning curve
Brian @ 4.55
What are are ye Brian?
Sorry age?
Nite Liz
Oh and where inevitably do shop?
Sorry again
Where is it you do shop?
And now for something completely different. Night, night peeps.
How to train your brain to accept change, according to neuroscience
Change is naturally more difficult as we age, but it’s beneficial to our cognitive health to stimulate and encourage it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/how-train-your-brain-accept-change-according-neuroscience-ncna934011
I’m 52.
I can’t go into the personal bit on a blog but it would become very clear to you.
Just take it as fact. I am only who I say I am.
Aw night Brian 🙂