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Wings Over Scotland


A plan of little action

Posted on April 24, 2019 by

Well, this won’t take long.

The First Minister’s speech to Parliament today contained a single useful and practical step: by aiming to pass the legislation required to conduct a second independence referendum by the end of this year, Scotland will be well prepared to act swiftly in the event that such a vote somehow becomes a reality.

On how to make it become a reality, there was nothing.

The FM’s plan, if we might generously put it as strongly as that, appears to be to keep appealing to the UK government’s sense of reason and decency (stop sniggering at the back) in the hope that one more time will work where the last 200 attempts failed.

She also plans to initiate a Citizen’s Assembly, in which a bunch of people elected by nobody (but whose identities we can probably make an educated general guess at) will sit around and talk and the outcome will presumably be used to appeal to the UK government’s sense of reason and decency etc.

The meaningful effect of this will be zero. If events should conspire in such a way that the SNP can extract a second indyref as the price of supporting a Labour government (which is unlikely on several levels, but not quite impossible, as the Tories are currently imploding at speed since failing to deliver Brexit again), there’ll be one no matter what stage the Citizens’ Assembly is at. If they don’t, there won’t.

The speech was a stalling exercise designed to appease the SNP membership and Yes movement by not explicitly putting a second referendum beyond 2021, in the hope that something (such as the aforementioned general election) happens to change the deadlock by which the UK government can just say “No” indefinitely.

Crucially, no steps were announced to resolve the question of whether Holyrood has the legal power under the Scotland Act to conduct an indyref or not.

As such, any attempt to hold a “wildcat” one would fail, as Unionist-controlled councils would simply refuse to cooperate. Were it to be attempted in, say, June 2020, the legal wrangling over the issue would certainly extend beyond the Scottish Government’s current electoral and parliamentary mandate.

In short, nothing changed today. The SNP is still frozen in headlights, hoping for some sort of deliverance to show up from an external source. It still clings to the belief that reason alone can win the day.

I have in my hand the findings of the Citizens’ Assembly!”
.

The evidence is that that is not the case. Theresa May does not appear to be the sort of person who changes her mind readily in response to logic. Ironically, the best hope for Scottish independence may now be Nigel Farage.

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    704 to “A plan of little action”

    1. Brian says:

      I shop in Aldi. I know they also do the brit thing but at least they do have scottish produce

    2. Liz g says:

      Ok and the big one…
      Why do you hate a flag… It’s a piece of cloth??

    3. Brian says:

      It is used to subjogate us

      I think that is the word.

      They have it everywhere but going and even take a saltire to a concert….how do they get away with It!?

    4. Brian says:

      We can’t even take to a concert

    5. Liz g says:

      Well… I don’t disagree but why get so hung job in it to hate?

    6. Liz g says:

      Hung up on it…

    7. Brian says:

      I can’t say on here Liz. It’s very personal.

      I hope you get a good sleep.

      Take care

    8. Liz g says:

      Are we too tired or is auto correct having a laugh? 🙂

    9. Liz g says:

      You too Brian stay well
      And haste ye back

    10. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian
      Now you won’t know this, being your first time here and all, but I had a bit of a struggle for acceptance myself. This was a while after my first appearance, and I wasn’t selling mince. So can I ask who you are outside of your imagination, and why do you feel yourself sufficiently important to disrupt an entire thread, on your first visit, if that’s not a personal question?

      Cognition and personality: an analysis of an emerging field
      cognitioninthewild.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/files/2015/03/Griffin-et-alCognition-and-personality_an-analysis-of-an-emerging-field.pdf

    11. Wullie says:

      A lot of comments with I think the underlying message that the current leadership of the SNP has gone utterly soft on the pursuit of independence.

      The target of getting an option of a referendum into place by the end of the current parliament is pure kick the can down the road sophistry.

      No more the dynamism of the Salmond government. No more the vigour of introducing real policies like no student fees, free prescription, no NHS parking charges, the decision to build our way through recession through infrastructure expansion, the saving of Ferguson’s shipyard through skilled governmental intervention, l winning the right to hold the 2014 independence referendum that took us close, very close.

      But now all gone. The vision of a Citizen Assembly, gender fluidity , a referendum some time maybe in the next decade, an increase in the poly bag tax, and then some more of the policies that undely acceptance of the writ of our Southern masters.

      But that I suppose was the trap of devolution and the current SNP sit comfortably in it as we get ripped out of Europe , have our economy wrecked by a Westminster in chaos, whilst huge numbers of our citizenry sustain fuel, food and income poverty.

      Yeah First Minister, like the once policy of abolishing the unfair council tax, it’s all gone.

      New Labour on steroids complacency did for Labour what it will do for you. Time is running out.

    12. CameronB Brodie says:

      This isn’t a dance peeps. Westminster doesn’t acknowledge international law unless it benefits Westminster. Our legal personality and human rights are not protected by the outdated British constitution, which is optional anyway, apparently.

      Brexit is an attack on the rule-of-law and the principle of universal human rights. The Government is acting illegally in preparing to drag Scotland from the EU. This must not be allowed to happen.

      EU citizenship
      Rights of EU citizens, the citizens’ initiative, reports, citizen surveys and more information on EU citizenship.

      https://ec.europa.eu/info/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/eu-citizenship/eu-citizenship_en

    13. Capella says:

      I see the “healthy” MSM are full of the idea that UK pensioners, the poorest in the OECD, should have their incomes cut so that young people can afford to eat and live in a house.

      This is from a report in the House of Lords – people who collect £300 per day just for turning up. The biggest unelected body of state decison makers outside the Chinese politburo.

      Why not tax the rich instead? Then we can all afford to eat and live in houses.

    14. Endie says:

      I trust and accept the legitimacy of an unelected citizens assembly no more than I do any other politically-skewed and ideologically-managed group. I reject the House of Lords, so why would I accept a version with “facilitators” whose job is to “guide” the discussion to the right sort of outcome?

    15. brian lucey says:

      The citizens assembly worked exceptionally well in Ireland. It delivered nuanced and we’ll evidenced proposals

    16. Dorothy Devine says:

      well! you lot have been playing cat and mouse all night with a creature who threatens to run to the media with clypie tales of bullying – an Aldi shopping adult of 52 no less.

      Go and stand in the corner for being cruel to a dumb animal.

      Looking forward to the 4th and a plethora of blue and white , and a plethora of good companions – in that I include our own Glasgow bobbies , who seem to enjoy the day too!

    17. Brian says:

      Sturgeon is just lining her poakits like aw the rest

    18. Brian says:

      An independence wi nae FM? bawbags

    19. Brian says:

      An independence march wiv no FM? bawbags

    20. Brian says:

      The Divine Dorothy ( she’s anything but) should keep her beak lot o others posts and go on the wee crap march without an FM lol

    21. Brian says:

      A plethora o blue n white Divine….must be the same day as a Rangers game then hen

    22. Brian says:

      Or she’s taking a busload o blue rinse pensioners wi white scarfs own a day oot fae drumchapel?

    23. Brian says:

      The pretendy parly had it’s day in the limelight yesterday…now back in your boxes

    24. North chiel says:

      Petra , great post from yourself at 1253 a.m. Agree with everything you have highlighted and in particular your support for our FM . If anyone believes that they could do a better job in progressing independence then why don’t they stand for Holyrood on a more radical or “ courageous “ ticket??

    25. Brian says:

      For your information Divine, I was playing with them all day and night.not one word unsaid was true.
      I’ve never seen such a bunch of self opinionated self righteous tests as on here.
      Those slamming into the Rev should give him an apology.
      It’s his site and he was as usual bang on the money.
      Open your eyes peeps ffs

    26. Brian says:

      Put up the 5 grand mate and I will!!
      Elitist shite

    27. asklair says:

      Time never runs out, but SNP is morphing into a “normal” UK political party.

    28. Breeks says:

      We had something even better than a Citizen’s Assembly. We had the 2014 YES Movement and it was the most progressive, inclusive, and spiritually uplifting community I have ever been involved with. It didn’t seek the equilibrium of consensus, it brought people from the dark into the light, and very, very, few of them ever stepped back. Then it was stopped and politically petrified.

      If we had a Citizen’s Assembly, it would just be hostage the usual BritNat indoctrination and duplicitous misrepresentation which contaminates every other aspect of “Scottish” cultural growth and common purpose. It’s output would be communicated to “our” people through “their” media, just as it is now.

      To all SNP folks heading to Conference, can I ask you to think about one thing? What would you be discussing at Conference if the ECJ had just passed a ruling declaring that Scotland could revoke Article 50 unilaterally?

      Revocation of Article 50 a sovereign prerogative, and we are a sovereign people which democratically rejected Brexit emphatically. The threshold between lawful Constitutional mandate and unlawful Colonial Subjugation was crossed the moment Article 50 Notification was issued by Westminster. We do not need the actual event of Brexit to occur to prompt our Constitutional defences.

      Come on Joanna Cherry. Let’s put the band back together and ask the ECJ for clarification of its judgement.

    29. Brian says:

      Well done Wullie at 5.39am…..great post. Very insightful.

    30. Phronesis says:

      ‘Teamwork is the ability to work together toward a common vision. It is the fuel that allows common people to attain uncommon results’
      Andrew Carnegie

      There are many paths to Scotland’s independence but they all converge at the same destination. It’s teamwork and having a defined timeline that will make it possible. Much to be positive about, the politics of hope and solidarity defining Scotland’s citizens, not learned helplessness and apathy.

    31. Brian says:

      But if those leading the team are not in it then it is certain to fail……Wee Jimmy Krankie

    32. Petra says:

      @ Ghillie says at 1:53 am …. ”A LOT of very positive feedback on Twitter for our First Minister’s speech today ? I think you are reading this correctly Thepnr =)”

      I agree Ghillie, Thepnr is reading this correctly, talking sense, whilst seemingly taking a great deal of flack for doing so.

      ……………………..

      If YOU want Scotland to become Independent YOU have to play a part. It’s not just down to Nicola Sturgeon, one individual, rather there are hundreds of thousands of us who, if we care to do so, can make a massive difference.

      WGD:- ‘We have work to do.’

      … ”So we’re on the way. The conditions for a ensuring that there is successful vote on Scottish independence have never been more favourable. We have something to work towards. But we have a great deal to do. There is pressure to build. Coalitions to form. Consensus to seek. Alliances to make. Persuasion to produce. Campaigning to plan. A future to create. We have work to do. We’re going to be busy.”

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/04/24/we-have-work-to-do-2/

      ……………………………

      The SNP is planning to inform EVERY household in Scotland and require your support. They don’t have billionaires and Trade Unions (and dark money) donating to them, as do the Tories, Labour and Libdems (and groups such as Scotland in Union). They need US.

      SIGN up to – ”Pledge your support for independence” folks.

      And Donate, Donate, Donate.

      …”Our plan is to distribute An Independent Scotland: Household Guide to every household – all 2,460,000 of them! To achieve that, I am asking you to join me in making a donation to this specific project.”

      http://www.yes.scot/

      …………………………

      Subscribe to the National. Scotland’s ONLY pro-Independence newspaper. Take a look at what they are planning to do.

      1. With 6000 subscribers they will produce a new series of monthly supplements targeted at No voters.

      2. With 7000 subscribers they will hire a full-time video journalist to produce viral videos for the Yes movement.

      3. With 8000 subscribers they will launch a Unionist fact-checking and rebuttal service.

      4. With 9000 subscribers they will hire a digital journalist to work with Yes groups on local stories.

      5. With 10,000 subscribers they will deliver a free glossy magazine outlining the benefits of independence to every town in Scotland.

      6. Support them with by subscribing and they’ll send you a Wee Ginger Dug!

      ”First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has declared that indyref2 should take place before 2021 – and Scotland’s only pro-independence newspaper is going into campaign mode. We need to make sure we’re in as strong a position as possible to influence the national debate – and here’s how you can help.”…

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/04/24/support-the-nationals-10000-steps-campaign-and-get-your-own-wee-ginger-dug/

      ……………………………

      And take a look at what’s going on, on this site now, and if you genuinely support Independence please consider posting.

    33. Brian says:

      Throw yer money awa folks.
      Neither the National nor the SNP will get that Section 30 order.
      I was going to say give it to a food bank but I just saw the SNP McGarrie story…….you’ve been warned

    34. ScotsRenewables says:

      Is this Brian’s blog now? Sheesh, what a boring wee troll. Please, please STFU Brian, you will wear my screen out with scrolling past your self-indulgent, self-important say-nothing tripe.

    35. Ken500 says:

      Goodness gracious, multiple posting of serveral people under the same non de plume A completely pointless exercise. Rev Stu will put right shortly to preserve the site.

      Just scroll on by the toxic irrelevance. There is nothing some people will no do to be egotistically irrelevant. The life of Brian totally irelevant, toxicity.

    36. Phronesis says:

      Scotland’s independence movement will succeed – it is built on an established grassroots movement that is represented across the length and breadth of the country and permeates the whole strata of society.
      Working hard not for financial gain but to future proof this small country’s destiny that is not mired in the broken political WM system that is fuelled by dark money with no regard for Scotland’s well being.
      Those who fail to grasp that haven’t been paying attention

    37. Famous15 says:

      Brian,as soon as I saw you say “Wee Jimmy Kankie” I remembered who you are. You are the wee retired Sergeant Major in the Black Watch now working for the MOD 77th who sits in our pub incontinently talking shite. Ya spanner.

      For the rest of us we will keep calm and carry on. Wee crowny thingy imogee.

    38. Ken500 says:

      @ Petra

      ( : > ) totally agree, one hundred percent.

      That’s the spirit. Excellent posts including from others. Too many to mention. Independence is on the cards and on the way. Millions of people will back it. All will join in. Do their part. Get the show on the road to success.

      Will donate with millions of others. To make the world a better place. Including Scotland’s inclusiveness. Already happening. Curtailing Westminster unionist toxic power, Led by the FM.

    39. Sharny Dubs says:

      Keep hearing people say but see how far we have come, follow the SNP’s proven track record. But the situation then is completely different to the situation now. It’s one thing to be a struggling minority, another thing to have a majority and still motivate those who supported you back then.

      The SNP have proven capable administrators, however it’s not difficult to look good against a bag of shit.
      IMHO (did I actually write that! Good god!) Sturgeon is obviously a sharp lawyer, but is she the politician for the times?

      No doubt if there is a GE, WM will be hoping and planning for another body blow to our ranks. Then the majority and chance has gone and we are screwed.

    40. Ken500 says:

      Get the Party started. Now.

      Another go. At the starting blocks and getting off the mark.

    41. ScotsRenewables says:

      Nicola did what she could.

      Even if there is/was a plausible framework to ‘Repeal The Act’, declare UDI or whatever this month’s fanciful flavour of the same is, it would still require a statement of majority support from the Scottish people, either a referendum or an election.

      Preparing for either takes time. So putting the legal and administrative framework in place for a referendum now while the Brexit situation remains opaque is very sensible. Remember, the mandate says break glass in case of Brexit. It hasn’t happened yet, so using the mandate now could be attacked. We have been promised a referendum in the next two years, and you can be sure the political and legal groundwork will be in place.

      So get out and campaign. Forget your understandable but unrealistic wish for ‘instant Indy’ for a few months and start a meaningful campaign to win hearts and minds, as Nicola did yesterday.

      The Unionist media are having a field day with this blog right now. Stop feeding them. I am remaining a member of the SNP, but I will not be displaying my ‘Proud Cybernat’ or ‘Alert Reader’ badges until you all calm down and wise up. I will still be here, but at the moment there is no way I would recommend this site to any of my ‘soft No’ friends or acquaintances.

    42. Certainly flushed out a few unionist parasites infesting this site,

      anyhoo,

      should be a good FMQs today at Holyrood,

      Nicola realy has the patience of a saint when dealing with the weak minded halfwits that lead the British Nationalist parties.

    43. ScotsRenewables says:

      And now let’s get onto something more immediately relevant… GCC’s obstruction of the upcoming AUOB march.

      What are we going to do about that?

    44. frogesque says:

      Was a wee bit down yesterday what with all the miserable dreich haar and some equally miserable postings here.

      But its another day in indyland and the sun’s out.

      Fuck the negativity, Westminster and green ink trolls! Power, real power, is taken not given. If anyone isn’t prepared to drive the bus then piss off out the driver’s seat and let in those who can.

    45. Sinky says:

      Daily Mail hyperventilating on prospect of Indy Ref 2.

      Snp need to start making the positive case for Independence and beef up its rebuttal unit to counter unionist propaganda on Snp performance in government.

    46. Petra says:

      @ North chiel says at 7:43 am …. ”Petra, great post from yourself at 1253 a.m. Agree with everything you have highlighted and in particular your support for our FM . If anyone believes that they could do a better job in progressing independence then why don’t they stand for Holyrood on a more radical or “courageous “ticket??

      Thanks for that NC. One just wonders who some of the ”courageous” people posting on here would care to replace her with? Davidson, Rennie or Leonard?

      …………………….

      @ Breeks says at 7:48 am …. ”We had something even better than a Citizen’s Assembly. We had the 2014 YES Movement and it was the most progressive, inclusive, and spiritually uplifting community I have ever been involved with. It didn’t seek the equilibrium of consensus, it brought people from the dark into the light, and very, very, few of them ever stepped back. Then it was stopped and politically petrified. If we had a Citizen’s Assembly, it would just be hostage the usual BritNat indoctrination and duplicitous misrepresentation which contaminates every other aspect of “Scottish” cultural growth and common purpose. It’s output would be communicated to “our” people through “their” media, just as it is now.”..

      Breeks there are thousands of people out there who have never stopped campaigning. Why don’t you join them? If you did it could / would surely cheer you up somewhat. After 300 plus years of being part of this so-called Union Independence is coming. There’s nothing surer. As to the Citizen’s Assembly why exclude that as part of the campaign overall? I don’t get it and would rather agree with people like Wee Ginger Dug on that one. Positive and spiritually uplifting.

      …”An important announcement was the setting up of a Citizens Assembly so that there can be wide consultation and discussion about the kind of country that we want to be. With Westminster’s chaos and crisis this is exactly what we need, a reborn and reinvigorated Scottish Constitutional Convention searching for collaboration, consensus, and . Scotland is seeking a calm and measured assessment of its future, and seeks to present detailed and well thought out plans on how to get there. This is exactly the opposite of Brexit, an ill-defined and nebulous proposition which has been hijacked by the populist right for its own ends.”..

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/04/24/we-have-work-to-do-2/

      ………………………..

      BBC’s propaganda Kaye is on this morning planning to ”discuss” Nicola Sturgeon’s plans for IndyRef2. Negative and spiritually dismal no doubt.

    47. Tatu3 says:

      Well I watched the whole speech from Nicola and all of the questions and Nicola’s answers. She most definitely wants Independence.
      And as each question from the union supporting sides got more and more stupid and repetitive, Nicola had to work hard not to get angry with them. She was calm and controlled and positive and mentioned in almost every answer how Scotland would be better off independent.
      I think she played it very well indeed. And by the looks on her opponents faces, they knew it too!

    48. frogesque says:

      @ScotsRenewables: 8.39

      Don’t know about you but I’m turning up at the designated place at the allotted time.

      Fuck anyone who tries to stop a 70+ guy exercising his right to roam on public property!

    49. Baldeagle58 says:

      So, The National will launch a Unionist fact-checking and rebuttal service with 8000 subscribers, will they?

      I’m sorry, but as it’s Scotland’s ONLY Pro-Indy newspaper, they should be doing this as a matter of course, NOT waiting till they get 8000 subscribers!!
      And I speak as a National online subscriber!

    50. Mike cassidy says:

      SSH.

      Don’t wake Brian.

      He’s been a naughty boy.

      Or probably a lot of naughty boys.

    51. brian lucey says:

      Scotland might well declare UDI but then it will be like Puntland or Western Sahara – unrecognized. The EU has made it crystal clear that an independent scotland, IF THAT IS ACHIEVED IN A CONSTITUTIONAL AND LEGAL manner, will be welcomed into the club.
      Now, the problem y’all have is this – the legal and constitutional reality is the Westminister must agree to any independence declaration. Malarkey about the interpretation of the union of crowns, the Act of Union, about national self determination trumping everything, all that is hot air. A referendum or PERHAPS a clear and unequivocal statement that if a supermajority of Scottish MP’s or MSP’s stand at an election on a single issue – independence- then thats your option set, it seems from the viewpoint of a sympathetic outsider.

    52. Petra says:

      @ Baldeagle58 says at 8:45 am …. ”So, The National will launch a Unionist fact-checking and rebuttal service with 8000 subscribers, will they? I’m sorry, but as it’s Scotland’s ONLY Pro-Indy newspaper, they should be doing this as a matter of course, NOT waiting till they get 8000 subscribers!! And I speak as a National online subscriber!”

      Baldeagle58 the National has around 5,813 subscribers, ONLY, already ”rebuts’ Unionist cr*p on a daily basis and of course offers a platform for key Independence activists. The newspaper is working on a shoe-string budget, so where do you think they are going to get the money from to hire additional staff members and carry out their plans, such as hiring a full-time video journalist to produce viral videos for the Yes movement, launching a Unionist fact-checking and rebuttal service (more intensive / extensive than now), hiring a digital journalist to work with Yes groups on local stories and delivering free glossy magazine outlining the benefits of independence to every town in Scotland.

      The only way that they can do so is to sell more newspapers.

    53. Another Union Dividend says:

      Indy ref2 Being discussed on BBC Radio Scotland Morning Call at 9 a.m.
      Contact details

      Phone 0500 92 95 00

      Sms 80295

      Email morningcallscotland [at] bbc [dot] co [dot] uk

      Facebook http://www.facebook.com/bbcradioscotland

      Twitter @bbcradioscot

      Email morningcallscotland [at] bbc [dot] co [dot] uk
      .

    54. Giving Goose says:

      Something to remember re MSM people like Torquil Crichton and BBC Scotland, is that they have an ideological belief in keeping Scots subserviant to Jacob Rees-Mogg, Teresa May, Boris Johnstone etc.
      No need to ask why, just accept that fact.
      Torquil and the BBC work for Jacob, Teresa & Boris! And get paid lots of money to do it!

    55. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting main webpage for the Herald at the moment.

    56. Old Pete says:

      If a Scottish referendum on Independence is called and the Westminster government says “now is not the time” what happens next ? If the vote goes ahead who will collect all the votes and count them ? Will the Unionist council’s not just refuse ? Will the UK government not just ignore it ?
      Any realistic and probable answers please as I don’t see any way round these problems without the English government’s “permission”

    57. Colin Alexander says:

      The SNP have already more or less known for years that any UK Govt ( Labour or Tory) would not give another S30 if there was a realistic prospect of a YES win.

      The SNP repeatedly deny the people of Scotland a chance to vote directly for independence at election time. Instead, the SNP want to be elected as administrators of the UK’s Scotland colony.

      The SNP are unwilling to offer independence at the ballot box as that runs the risk of SNP politicians losing out their cushy jobs, power and prestige as colonial administrators for the British Govt, if they lose an election fought on independence.

      The (false) counter argument, for a straight mandate for indy, is that the SNP need to get into power at Holyrood to offer an indyref. The Continuity Bill events have already shown that the UK state can simply overrule anything that comes from the Scottish Parliament. Devolution is a con. Scottish democracy via the Scottish Parliament is a con. Democratic mandate via the SP is something the UK Govt and UK Supreme Court has already rejected.

      The SNP continuing to play along in their part of the con, pretending they can deliver an indyref via the Scottish Parliament is a cynical attempt to appease and con votes from the YES movement in the Euro elections and 2021 Scottish election.

      So, no indyref and no indy plebiscite elections any time soon. The argument there is: the SNP are wise not to hold a vote on indy when figures don’t clearly indicate an INDY win. There is some merit in that argument.

      The reality is the SNP have done almost nothing in the last five years to promote independence.

      Preparation is 99% of the process. There has been no preparation, no campaign by the SNP to convince people of the merits of indy for the last five years. No attempts to bust the myths of Project Fear. No attempts to establish answers to basic questions such as: how are the debts and assets of the UK distributed if Scotland chose to end the Union? Could Scotland legally prevent Brexit by exercising Scottish sovereignty and Scotland democratically voting Remain?

      So, what now for the YES movement? The SNP lead – they lead us to a dead end with their doomed-to- failure indyref policy.

    58. Robert Louis says:

      Scots renewables at 0839am,

      The obstruction of the AUOB march by glasgow city council, by a committee made up of SNP and greens, if I am correct, is just stupid. They were told the date and time one year ago. They had a year for the council and police to make the necessary provisions. They can do it for the orange lodge knuckle draggers, so why not an indy march??

      And just btw, I’d really like to see the FM turn up at the march in Glasgow. She can join bexit marches in London, so why not an indy march in her own town?? Time for her to start getting directly involved.

    59. John H. says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      “They and STV are getting worse than BBC”

      Don’t worry about the BBC losing their crown Dave. They and ITV are competing against each other in talking down Scotland. I know I shouldn’t but I watched the last ten minutes of Newsnight last night. They were discussing the possibility of Scottish independence.

      It seemed to be surprisingly reasonable until the last two or three minutes. Then the boot went in, leaving no time for a response from the Scottish person involved. Oh how they laughed.

    60. Robert Louis says:

      And, further to my last post, I’d like to see the SNP start talking of nothing but independence from now on. If it really ‘is time’ and they are truly serious about it, they need to stop ‘not mentioning’ independence. Time to speak out for what they believe in, at every opportunity, getting the message across in every interview, tackling the silly objections head-on and making the case strongly for Scotland running its own affairs.

      I’ll not hold my breath.

    61. frogesque says:

      Westminster refuses > court case > UN Right to development.

      That’s the legal route unless Queen Lizzy, Queen of Scots knockles a few heads together. Can’t see it somehow.

      UDI would need at least 90% of Scots in favour not only of Indy but UDI as well. Ain’t gonna happen!

    62. Robert Louis says:

      Scots renewables at 0819am,

      Amen to that. Just looked at posts overnight, and it was just endless sh*te from mainly one gobs*te.

    63. Bobp says:

      O/t. I see a lords committee led by lord true has recommended abolishing free tv licences for pensioners. Cutting or abolishing winter fuel payments, free bus passes, and other free pensioner perks. Ah well, if that doesnt focus the minds of those elderly no voters in Scotland. Then i’m afraid nothing will.

    64. Lenny Hartley says:

      ScotsRenewables @8:39 just tell yer soft noes not to read btl, thats what I do after a few were spooked by the comments. After all its the Rev’s brilliant analysis and writing that this site is about and not the btl comments.

    65. Patrick Roden says:

      @ fireproofjim

      you said: “There is a good argument that a strong Yes campaign will achieve the magical 50%+1, (after all the last campaign took us from below 30% to 45%), but for that campaign we have to get the conditions right.”

      I’ve heard the argument put forward a number of times, that since we went from (below 25%, if my memory serves me right) or 30% to 45% in the first referendum, then surely getting from 45% to over 50% in the second referendum should be relatively easy!

      However, this does not take into account the ‘Law of diminishing returns’ because most of the folk who could be easily converted, did so in the first ref, AND have remained loyal to the cause, but we still have the stubborn 10% or more, who although support the concept of an independent Scotland, they are too easily frightened off the idea by MSM scare stories.

      It is these people who will help push Scotland towards its independence, but this will only happen when they are more scared of the disaster that is Brexit, than better-Together’s inevitable ‘Project Fear Mark 2’, promoted by the ever willing MSM.

    66. Robert Louis says:

      Frogesque at 0948am,

      I agree with your argument. BUT, as REVSTU points out, that should have been done over a year ago, indeed when the section 30 got knocked back first time around. It is where it will end, so why did the SNP not just get on and do it. Why wait until now, to start planning such things? I think that is what frustrates many folk.

      Anyway, events moved on quickly yesterday and Westminster has now told the Scotgov yet again, that they will not provide a section 30, so that is effectively dead.

      As regards UDI, I agree, but would point out, that Scotland cannot declare UDI, since it is not part of England. Rather it could unilaterally end the treaty of union – and that is a right enshrined in the Vienna convention. Scotland is in a political union with England, it is not, despite what unionists think, owned by England.

    67. ScotsRenewables says:

      Robert Louis says:
      25 April, 2019 at 9:41 am
      And, further to my last post, I’d like to see the SNP start talking of nothing but independence from now on.

      She’s mentioned it pretty much every time she has spoken in public or on camera recently, surprised you hjaven’t noticed.

    68. frogesque says:

      @Robert Louis: 9.41

      If GCC can’t cope with 100k+ peaceful Indy supporters then they can’t possibly cope with 100k+ rival and potentially violent football supporters.

      Time to close down the big clubs or only play behind closed doors?

    69. yesindyref2 says:

      @Old Pete
      When the proposed Referendum Bill receives Royal Assent it becomes Law. And Councils are obliged to floowl the Law and perform their duties under it. I would think that any council officers refusing to co-operate could be prosecuted.

    70. Capella says:

      @ Old Pete – since it is enshrined in the UN Charter on Human Rights that “The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government”, and since the UK is a signatory and so is the EU while we are still in the EU and since it is also enshrined in the UN Declaration on decolonisation that, “all peoples have an inalienable right to complete freedom, the exercise of their sovereignty and the integrity of their national territory” then the Scottish Government can take their case to the UN if there is any attempt to deny our inalienable rights.

      https://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/eng.pdf

      https://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml

    71. Robert Louis says:

      In all of this, however, there is one point that folk, including the SNP seem to forget. Scotland has by democratic vote, already determined it does not wish to leave the EU. The Scotgov, therefore has a clear democratic mandate to keep Scotland in the EU. That is the will of the sovereign people of Scotland.

      It really is not complicated.

    72. yesindyref2 says:

      “floowl”? Good grief, “follow”!

    73. Tatu3 says:

      Robert Louis @ 9.41
      In the Q&A session after her speech, Nicola mentioned her wish for Scotland to be independent in almost every answer.
      She also managed to get in a mention of how Labour voted for Tories in 2017. She also managed to mention a couple of times (once to Murdo F and another to a lib dem guy) how Federalism would never work as no Westminster government has ever wanted it and never will want it.
      I think she did really well, considering what/who she is up against!
      She has a plan and the opposition are scared because they know it will be a good one.

    74. ScotsRenewables says:


      Robert Louis says:

      Anyway, events moved on quickly yesterday and Westminster has now told the Scotgov yet again, that they will not provide a section 30, so that is effectively dead.

      We knew that. So let’s put the framework in place and ask again when things have moved on at Westminster.

      As for UDI, repealing the Act of Union or whatever other method you think might be a way forward – any one of these would require a solid mandate from the Scottish people, which could only be obtained through a referendum or an election. The only thing there is a mandate for at the moment is a referendum IF we are Brexited.

      Normally rational posters on ehre and other prio-Indy groups are starting to sound like spoilt kids who demand instant gratification. There are no shortcuts, we (narrowly) failed in 2014 and we get one more chance, let’s not screw it up by bickering and splintering.

    75. ScotsRenewables says:


      Robert Louis says:
      25 April, 2019 at 9:53 am
      In all of this, however, there is one point that folk, including the SNP seem to forget. Scotland has by democratic vote, already determined it does not wish to leave the EU. The Scotgov, therefore has a clear democratic mandate to keep Scotland in the EU. That is the will of the sovereign people of Scotland.

      It really is not complicated.

      How do you propose ScotGov performs this miracle, unless the EU makes some sort of extra-statutory concession to Scotland, which it is not going to do while Brexit is unresolved.

      Do calm down, we have two years to sort this – but it needs cool heads.

    76. Robert Louis says:

      Scots renewables at 0951am,

      Good. I am glad to hear it. I just want to see no more of SNP folk almost bragging, when interviewed, about how they haven’t mentioned independence. It has been happening since NS became leader.

      When Alex Salmond was leader, he mentioned it in almost every thing he said. No matter what the question, it would lead to …’and so this is why Scotland needs to control its own future, or resourcees, or development or whatever’. He made the case very strongly in every thing he said and did. Always. His focus was independence.

      If the approach of the current leader has changed, then good. Let us hope it continues.

    77. ScotsRenewables says:

      . . . and of course the easiest way to keep Scotland in the EU is to recverse Brexit, which is what the ScotGov has been trying to do for two years – and getting mightily slagged off by Indy hotheads for it as well.

    78. Robert Louis says:

      Scots renewables at 0958,

      The point is, the Scot gov keep saying they need a democratic mandate via vote in order to have independence, since the people of Scotland are sovereign. Well, if the people of Scotland are sovereign, why is their vote on EU membership being ignored.

      How to achieve it??? Independence. The referendum should already have been called just after the brexit vote.

    79. ScotsRenewables says:

      Robert, I think you will hear Nicola mention independence nearly every time she speaks from now on.

      The problem has been that even when she keeps it below the radar and concentrates on the day job the Yoons will not stop commenting on her ‘obsession’ with independence.

      I think she has realised that there is nothing left to gain by soft-pedalling it. She has called their bluff by, in effect, asking them to bring forward options for ‘anything but indy’ to improve Scotland’s situation. They will either bring forward hee-haw or straw men she can demolish without breaking sweat.

    80. Robert Louis says:

      Scots renewables at 0959am,

      Well perhaps they should have spent the last two years pursuing independence, instead of trying to save England from its own stupidity. That is what irks people.

      Having a different opinion to the SNP, does not make an indy campaigner a’ hothead’.

    81. ScotsRenewables says:

      Robert Louis says:
      25 April, 2019 at 10:02 am
      Scots renewables at 0958,

      The point is, the Scot gov keep saying they need a democratic mandate via vote in order to have independence, since the people of Scotland are sovereign. Well, if the people of Scotland are sovereign, why is their vote on EU membership being ignored.

      How to achieve it??? Independence. The referendum should already have been called just after the brexit vote.

      Robert, what good would it have done? A Section 30 would have been refused, Yoon controlled councils would have refused to participate in an ‘illegal’ (haha) referendum and NO voters would have boycotted it in droves, resulting in a very low turnout and an easy opportunity for the referendum to be discredited and ignored.

      My great hope was that we could have an electronic, bombproof blockchain technology enabled referendum with over 50% of the eligible electorate voting YES< but this seems as far away as ever both in terms of technological implementation and actual numbers of people prepared to commit.

      NO, it may be frustrating (I am not getting any younger!), but I am convinced that the SNP under Sturgeon remain our last great hope – else we risk falling slowly but inexorably back into fringe status and lose 50 years of progress.

    82. Robert Louis says:

      Scots renewables at 1003am,

      I understand your point, but my question would simply be this, why on earth was NS ever trying to keep indy ‘under the radar’? That is what many folk do not understand. It is the life and soul of the SNP. Why be so shy about it?

      Yes, I recall the unionists slagging her off for talking of nothing but independence, even when she didn’t, but why did she not just say, well of course I’m talking about nothing but independence, because Westminster is screwing up Scotland, or similar. She just didn’t stand up for what she believed in.

      As I say, if that has changed, then good. Not before time.

    83. ScotsRenewables says:

      Robert Louis says:
      25 April, 2019 at 10:05 am
      Scots renewables at 0959am,

      Well perhaps they should have spent the last two years pursuing independence, instead of trying to save England from its own stupidity. That is what irks people.

      Having a different opinion to the SNP, does not make an indy campaigner a’ hothead’.

      I did not say you were a hothead, and I understand your frustration. But you are contradicting yourself.

      FIrstly you say ScotGov has a duty to save the Scottish people from Brexit – which I agree with. But then you say Sturgeon was wrong to try to use the systems at her disposal (viz. diplomacy and the Westminster parliament) to try to do just that by cancelling or mitigating Brexit.

      OK, it looks like all attempts have failed and England cannot be saved from its own stupidity, but is determined to drag Scotland down with it. But she had to try, and to be seen to try. Now the iceberg looms and we get the lifeboat ready for launch while we still have a weather window.

    84. robertknight says:

      @P Roden…

      Agreed. The swing that is required has yet to appear, despite Brexit.

      There can’t be a headlong rush to failure for the sake of it.

      Québec went to the polls in 1980 where the result was 40/60 in favour of ‘No’.

      The second Québec referendum in 1995 saw a result of 49.4/50.6 yet again in favour of ‘No’.

      You will not hear a cry of “Vive le Québec libre!” in the streets of Montreal these days. Let us take that lesson from history if nothing else, for those that cannot learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.

      A worthwhile read, and particularly the section titled “Present” –

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_sovereignty_movement

    85. Robert Louis says:

      Scotsrenewables at 1009am,

      I’m not going to keep debating so here is my final point.

      Of course a section 30 order would have been refused in 2016. Just like it was yesterday, just like it will be in 2020, 2021,2022,2023 etc,,

      Time to move on from this s30 nonsense. Scotland does not need the permission of England to end the treaty of union. It is called unilateral for a reason. Otherwise we need to just accept Scotland can NEVER be independent until England says so.

      Scotgov needs to move on from this nonsense about s30. They are not going to get one.

    86. Iain More says:

      So let me get this right.

      Jesus!!! The alleged Indy paper called the National will only do X, Y and Z if it gets X, Y or Z subscribers.

      Quite frankly that just isn’t good enough. It is also insulting to the present subscribers. Here come the apologists for the pseudo Indy paper called the National. They are almost as bad as the SNP sycophants.

      The National as the alleged Indy paper should be doing X, Y and Z anyway and not applying conditions. But hey the SNP should be the Political Party of Independence and not applying conditions as it did yesterday.

      Colin Alexander at 9.33 hits the nail on the head when it comes to the SNP. I am so thoroughly disgusted with them and totally out of patience with them. The Nat politicians have their cushy well paid jobs and it is a case of screw the rest of us. The National is also taking us for granted.

    87. Robert Louis says:

      Ian more,

      I actually think ‘The National’ newspaper is very good. It is a business, and they need subscribers to undertake additional work, pay more man hours. It’s not rocket science. It will really help for an indy referendum campaign, when(if) a referendum is called.

      I hope they get some new subscribers. It has some very good writers, including the wee ginger dug.

    88. Sinky says:

      Some on here don’t appreciate that we need a majority for independence and there is no obvious evidence for this at present. I suggest instead of moaning on here they get out and canvass middle class voters as those are needed to win.
      Another lost Indy Ref will kill it off for 50 years.

    89. ScotsRenewables says:

      Iain More says:
      25 April, 2019 at 10:16 am
      So let me get this right.

      So where does the National get its money to perform these actions, you tube? From big daddy Herald group? I think not.

      Good grief, Stu, check this clown’s IP address . . . it’s not unreasonable to stop multiple identity postings from swamping a blog, in fact it is standard practice on many forums.

    90. robertknight says:

      @sinky…

      Seconded!

    91. Robert Louis says:

      Sinky at 1022am,

      The polls are not going to move substantially until such time as a referendum is actually called. At the start of the last campaign, the polls for yes were around 28-30%. The campaign moved that up to 45%.

      Waiting for the polls to call a referendum or vote, is just nuts. Just ask Theresa May, the polls showed she would increase her majority in an election, but that changed once the campaign started. She lost seats and ended up with a minority government.

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      @Old Pete
      Probably not the best, and Sturgeon said there’s new stuff in connection with the Ref coming out, but this about the Returning Officer duties (Page 14):

      Breach of official duty and power to correct procedural errors
      3.19 You are also subject to breach of official duty provisions. This means that if you or your appointed deputies are, without reasonable cause, guilty of any act or omission in breach of official duty you (and/or they) are liable on summary conviction to an unlimited fine in England and Wales or, in Scotland, a fine not exceeding £5,000
      “.

      http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/175365/UKPE-Part-A-Returning-Officer-role-and-responsibilities.pdf

      Perhaps in the new provisions the fine will be higher!

      But anyway, the RO is accountable to the courts. So if it’s Law, it’s Law.

    93. Breeks says:


      brian lucey says:
      25 April, 2019 at 8:57 am
      Scotland might well declare UDI but then it will be like Puntland or Western Sahara – unrecognized. The EU has made it crystal clear that an independent scotland, IF THAT IS ACHIEVED IN A CONSTITUTIONAL AND LEGAL manner, will be welcomed into the club.
      Now, the problem y’all have is this – the legal and constitutional reality is the Westminister must agree to any independence declaration. Malarkey about the interpretation of the union of crowns, the Act of Union, about national self determination trumping everything, all that is hot air…

      You’re obviously new here since you’re talking about a UDI, and you’re not very well informed about Scotland’s Constitution either if you think it’s all hot air. It would be patronising to say your perspective is classic BritNatism, but I reserve the right to think it.

      The problem we have has nothing to do with “our” Constitution, but is two fold; our population is indoctrinated from cradle to grave with a monopoly of “British” propaganda and distortion of the Scottish political landscape and lawful Constitution, and secondly, our “equal” partner in this Union has never once seen itself as our equal, and is a deluded egotist who believes in its own exceptionalism and considers itself above the law. For 300 years Scotland has been too weak, disorganised and isolated to pursue its true Constitutional legitimacy, and until recently has been denied political representation outside the Westminster system. All that is changing. All that was, is now in a state of flux.

      You could still make the argument that Holyrood is still part of that Westminster system, but at least there is now a degree of autonomous government, and a greater degree of autonomous thinking. The momentum for change is one way traffic. Independence and self determination is kept in abeyance by the UK’s suppression and distortion of Scottish affairs, but that damn of Unionism is now springing leaks everywhere, and sooner or later the damn will burst. It is inevitable.

      For Centuries, the United Kingdom has only survived because it has managed to disrupt Scotland’s leadership and government, and suppress any and all rejection of “Britishness”, which is really just a flag of convenience for anglicisation. It’s control over us is still daunting, but it has never been weaker.

      We have the semblance of our “own” government, and social media also allows to coordinate ourselves and work together constructively towards the common objective of a modern Scotland which is a fully autonomous sovereign nation making its own way in the world. We grow stronger with the dissemination of information. Unionism is sustained by suppressing it.

      We haven’t got it right yet. Some of us, like me, would jump through a plate glass window to seize control of Scotland’s Sovereignty whatever the consequence. Others are more moderate, some, to the point of insufferable timidly in the eyes of others, but when we raise our flags, you can see by the sea of saltires how absolutely united we actually are.

      It is our Scottish prerogative to fight amongst ourselves. We can disagree, even come to blows amongst ourselves, but when it clicks, when the threat is understood, Scotland will come together as one Nation and be rid of this Union forever.

    94. Robert Louis says:

      Jeez, judging by some of the nonsense last night, the English army’s 77th brigade seem to be employing real amateurs these days. Maybe they are just paying the minimum wage?

    95. starlaw says:

      If Westminster thinks Scotland needs an S30, good! leave them thinking that.
      The 2021 date appears to apply only if Brexit does not happen/is not settled. In this case the disrespect and insulting behaviour shown to our Scottish MP’s in Westminster would justify a referendum. Nicola said next to nothing about what would happen if Brexit did occur before then, but she has always said this act would be enough to call a referendum. Hoping for more clarity over the weekend.

    96. Breeks says:

      Incidentally, I typed dam, not damn.

    97. Robert Louis says:

      Breeks at 1032am,

      Totally agree with this;

      “It is our Scottish prerogative to fight amongst ourselves. We can disagree, even come to blows amongst ourselves, but when it clicks, when the threat is understood, Scotland will come together as one Nation and be rid of this Union forever.”

      I cannot wait to see this tawdry unwanted undemocratic, pointless union with England ended. That is our common cause. It is that rock-solid common cause which scares unionists so much.

    98. RoberttheTruth says:

      I have brought you to the ring, now you must dance.

    99. yesindyref2 says:

      Another thing about a Referendum organised by the ScotGov, Sturgeon said

      We will shortly introduce legislation to set the rules for any referendum that is now, or in the future, within the competence of the Scottish Parliament.

      We will aim for this legislation to be on the statute book by the end of this year. Mike Russell will set out the details next month.

      I’ve lost track a bit of this though I was following it a bit, but I think all elections will be under the EMB, and that the Electoral Commisson is being dispensed with, but don’t quote me on that!

      The Electoral Management Board for Scotland (EMB) has a key role in delivering electoral events in Scotland. Returning Officers and Electoral Registration Officers drawn from across the country lead and support their colleagues to coordinate elections and referendums to give results in which the voter can have full confidence.

      In 2014 the EMB gave extensive support to its Convener, Mary Pitcaithly in her role as Chief Counting Officer for the Scottish Independence Referendum.

      http://www.electionsscotland.info/

      As far as I can see, and maybe I need to go to Specsavers, the EMB appoints ROs, and the RO appoints teams, i.e. counters etc. By default these seem to be drawn from or with council cooperation, but I don’t think they need to be. I’d guess the RO has the power to co-opt ANY public building for the purposes of an election of any sort. Otherwise democracy would be at peril of such as LA strikes or indeed, refusal to co-operate for political reasons.

      So as far as I can see, Unionists can boycott the referendum as far as their own votes go, but can do nothing else at all. They are powerless hahahahahahahaha.

    100. mike cassidy says:

      Trolls will be trolls.

      Meanwhile – in the real world

      Is this another Scottish first?

      http://archive.is/E9OB4

    101. Robert Louis says:

      Do we have a timeline for the referendum legislation?

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      I think also, by the way, that anyone interfering in the lawful execution of a ballot, can be prosecuted through the courts, and face a fine or even imprisonment. Postal vote “counting” being an example.

      I suspect the recent ScotGov consultation will result in stiffer elections in future, and probably be implemented for the Ref.

    103. ScotsRenewables says:

      Nicola said the legislative framework for a referendum would be in place by the end of the year, but hinted it might be sooner.

    104. Thepnr says:

      Just thought that this post from another site fits right in with the views of some of the posters on Wings so this is for them. Enjoy!

      “The SNP has failed to come up with a viable independence plan in the last eighty years – how does Sturgeon think she can come up with a new plan in the next two? In the meantime, she and her cronies pocket vast amounts of taxpayers’ money while Scotland falls apart around them.”

    105. Thepnr says:

      I have my doubts that these posts are actually from genuine Independence supporters but you never know. Lots of genuine Independence supporters on here often talk the same language?

      “Sturgeon needs to take a long hard look at herself.

      She has wasted her life to date on this lost cause. Despite all her efforts she has failed to persuade a majority at any time and is hopelessly short of achieving a “settled will”.

      Her legacy will be a divided country and generation of kids failed by the education system.

      Time she moved on and retire to her villa in Portugal to do something useful with the rest of her life.”

      The Scotsman btl comments are wondrous, many on here would be made very welcome I’m sure.

    106. Baldeagle58 says:

      Petra says:

      25 April, 2019 at 8:58 am

      @ Baldeagle58 says at 8:45 am …. ”So, The National will launch a Unionist fact-checking and rebuttal service with 8000 subscribers, will they? I’m sorry, but as it’s Scotland’s ONLY Pro-Indy newspaper, they should be doing this as a matter of course, NOT waiting till they get 8000 subscribers!! And I speak as a National online subscriber!”

      Baldeagle58 the National has around 5,813 subscribers, ONLY, already ”rebuts’ Unionist cr*p on a daily basis and of course offers a platform for key Independence activists. The newspaper is working on a shoe-string budget, so where do you think they are going to get the money from to hire additional staff members and carry out their plans, such as hiring a full-time video journalist to produce viral videos for the Yes movement, launching a Unionist fact-checking and rebuttal service (more intensive / extensive than now), hiring a digital journalist to work with Yes groups on local stories and delivering free glossy magazine outlining the benefits of independence to every town in Scotland.

      The only way that they can do so is to sell more newspapers

      Petra, I stand corrected. Been one of these mornings, and really should have put brain in gear before posting my comment. 🙁

    107. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScotsRenewables
      I suspect it will if needed to be sooner, otherwise they’ll let it follow its course as a longer red rag waved in the face of John Bull, if, for instance Brexit is delayed yet again to next March.

    108. Abulhaq says:

      Encapsulates what many have felt for some time. The SNP, as currently led and constituted, may well not be the vehicle to free our country from the thralldom of Ukania and Britishness.
      In common with the rest of Uk political life Brexititis has taken its toll. What ought to have been an opportunity of Brit establishment disorder to seize slipped through the National party, British conditioned?, grey cells. Time was wasted on fruitless appeals to Unionist remainers instead of puting the boot in to the whole decaying system.
      SNP cosy party of devolution today and independence possibly at some future date.
      Scotland could do with an unashamedly Nationalist party not one whose leadership is stricken by the dreaded cringe about the word. Perhaps the forthcoming SNP conference will give birth to one.

    109. mogabee says:

      Breeks

      Brian Lucey has definitely posted before.

      Can we all stop with accusations towards other posters. It’s really ok to disagree with someone, that is normal but nastiness is unwarranted.

    110. Thepnr says:

      @Abulhaq

      Are you lost? You seem to be posting on the wrong site.

      Your mates are all waiting on the other one to hear your words of wisdom. You can find them here, don’t say I’m not nice to you.

      https://www.scotsman.com/

    111. Terry callachan says:

      Of course Scotland does not need a section 30 order to hold a Scottish independence referendum Scotland does not need England’s Westminster to give scotland permission to become an independent country all that is needed is a majority in favour of Scottish independence however, Scotland will benefit from a cooperative separation the separation of Scotland from England will require many many legislative changes and complex arrangements over a lengthy period of time ,what we do not want is an uncooperative Westminster when we declare independence .
      Once a majority in Scotland vote for independence and independence is declared it will be embraced by Westminster and presented to England as being of benefit to all, an amicable separation is always best so seeking the agreement of England’s Westminster is sound practice.

    112. Cubby says:

      For goodness sake the UDI rears its head again. Scotland cannot do a UDI because it is not a region or part of a unitary state. Scotland is one of the worlds oldest nations that was bribed/ tricked/threatened into signing the Treaty of Union 1706/7. Yes that’s right the precious precious UNION that the Britnats keep expressing their love of. It’s a UNION – anyone still not got it. A bipartite UNION between the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England.

      Therefore as a UNION Scotland gains its independence by terminating the Treaty of Union 1706/7 and dissolving the U.K. THIS IS NOT UDI and can never be. Scotland would not be leaving the U.K. Scotland would be terminating the U.K.

      It’s not rocket science. For example, is the UK doing a UDI in leaving the EU. – No. If England decided to terminate the TREATY of Union 1706/7 would that be England doing a UDI – no.

    113. yesindyref2 says:

      Talking about the Scotsman, Kenny MacAskill had an article there apparently, quoted in the Herald. Use of very clearly Unionist language, such as “delusional” about Indy supporters expecting a relatively soon Indy Ref, and “But it allows her [Sturgeon] to reassure the party this weekend that she’s undaunted and the light undimmed.”

      Can’t make up my mind about him, is he running interference for Sturgeon and the rest, adding to the Unionists’ confusion? Or is he for real, perhaps bitter about being sacked by Sturgeon, same as that Alex Bell ding dong was by Salmond.

    114. Maolbeatha says:

      So everybody didn’t get what they wanted then?

      What was said didn’t provide the answers to the questions in your minds?

      And the response of some is what?
      I wont vote SNP? I withdraw my membership?

      This does what to aid independence?

      Some vote for another party for Independence?
      Who would that be? If they are not bigger than the SNP then you split the vote don’t you?

      IF the section 30 is the only way of getting a legally recognised vote then what else could she do?

      Does the sovereignty of the Scottish people recognised by Westminster provide a way through that via the courts?

      Does the EU’s apparent support for Scotland in the eu provide an indication of support from the court of Human rights? or from the EU itself?

      Can Westminster be FORCED to grant a section 30? By reason that a democratically elected parliament representing the population of a Country whose people are sovereign wish to express their rights towards self determination?
      I see courts in the future of this.

      I don’t know the answer to those thoughts.

      For me the section 30 issue was always going to be the biggest obstacle and I cannot see a way around it.
      I hope that those in the SNP have calculated a way around that.

      I choose to believe they have understood that and are working towards a position to get around it.

      Until I hear a route past the Section 30 problem I wont be getting too excited about it. Not yet.

      Vote for whomever you like, but who would you vote for that has a better chance of giving us what we want?

      Frustration causes people to act in more extravagant ways sometimes when they calm down their minds can become clearer.

      For what its worth.

    115. yesindyref2 says:

      @Maolbeatha
      From Sturgeon’s speech:

      We do not need a transfer of power – such as a section 30 order – to pass such a framework Bill, though we would need it to put beyond doubt or challenge our ability to apply the Bill to an independence referendum.

      Read into that what we will!

      But remember she frames her words very carefully, with a lawyer’s precision.

    116. Thepnr says:

      @Maolbeatha

      In my view the Scottish government made clear in Nicola Sturgeons statement that they will legislate for another Independence referendum before the end of this year.

      I’m certain that they will do this, with or without a Section 30 order. The point is that if any bill for a second referendum is unchallenged then we go ahead and have a referendum that is accepted as legitimate as laid down in the bill.

      The choice of whether to challenge the legitimacy of such a bill made in Holyrood lies with Westminster. They cannot stop such a bill being voted on but they can prevent it becoming law.

      This is what they will of course do and to me it looks certain that this will end up in court UNLESS Westminster agree to a Section 30 order.

      The whole point of this is that it will be for Westminster to challenge the legitimacy of the Scottish government and not the other way around. Scotland will be having a second referendum is what was said yesterday. Just try and stop us is what was shouted.

    117. yesindyref2 says:

      @Brian Lucey
      From Sturgeon’s speech, after the one above:

      Of course, as members are aware, the UK government’s current position is that it will not agree to transfer power.

      I believe that position will prove to be unsustainable.

      and

      If we are successful in further growing the support and the demand for independence – and I will say more later this week about how we build that case – then no UK government will be able to deny the will of the people or stop that will being expressed.

      Sturgeon’s Westminster conditioned having never been an MP, she’s a fearty 😎

    118. Abulhaq says:

      @Thepnr
      The SNP is simply a political party like any other, it and its leaders are not idols to be worshipped.
      Independence is its raison d’être, it is miserably failing in that regard.
      Only a misty eyed Sturgeon groupie could think independence was now a dead certainty.
      A change of strategy as well as leadership is now due.
      Interestingly, you read ScotBrit unionist press, I don’t.

    119. Thepnr says:

      @yesindyref2

      Sturgeons speech is crystal clear so it’s puzzling why so many appear to miss the point. Scotland will be having another referendum. Full stop, we don’t need “permission”

      By the way on your earlier post about MacAskill it does look like he’s much like Bell or Sillars and a few others.

    120. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Enjoyed yesterday’s speach by Nicola – strongly at first,then felt a bit flat later on.
      Then I realised what she had done.

      That message was for them, (those not with us yet),not for us.

      She held out the hand of reason to the soft NOs. And also to our enemy and asked them to show similar respect. The enemy responded as expected with yelping and squealing and insult.

      She offered them an opportunity to be positive and constructive and to work for a better Scotland – and they wont turn up.

      And we will go on without them.

      All today’s enemy newspapers are screaming “Sturgeon is going for IndyRef2”. Job done. On several fronts.

    121. schrodingers cat says:

      james obrian on lbc discussing indy

    122. Thepnr says:

      @Abulhaq

      I’ve read a great many of your posts, you’re not here in support of Independence, you have your own agenda.

      In the past you talked of Scotland as “your” country and having been pulled up on that now talk of “our” country. You are not Scottish and it’s very doubtful that you even live in Scotland.

      Your posts are consistently looking to stir up discord, some might even think you’d love nothing better than to see a real rammy erupt between the people of Scotland and our government in Westminster.

      Of course you though don’t have any such agenda eh and are only sympathetic to the plight of the poor Scots being denied their Independence by their colonial masters.

    123. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Just as a matter of concern to some. Several have said “Nicola has no plan”. They don’t know Nicola. She has a plan. I might not agree entirely with her plan but be assured she has a plan. She always has a plan.

      Let’s see what she says to “us” on Sunday.

    124. Col says:

      Much talk of what we’re up against, billionaires, dark money all funding unionist parties. Would it be legal for yes Scotland to start an international fundraising campaign?

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr

      The rest of your posting makes it clear, but this is missing a little bit – “they can try to prevent it

      They cannot stop such a bill being voted on but they can prevent it becoming law.

      Basically yes, all this talk about the ScotGov taking things to court is redundant, they can just do things and make others take it to court.

      Or to put it precisely, *try to* take it to court, as a court could even rule there was no case to answer, the sumission (e.g. by the UK Gov) was incopetent, so no court case allowed.

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry, this should have been in italics and quotes from your posting:

      They cannot stop such a bill being voted on but they can prevent it becoming law.

    127. Thepnr says:

      @yesindyref2

      It looks that way, if Westminster don’t like it then they can try and take the Scottish government to court.

      Let them try as I’m sure the Scottish government are prepared for just such an outcome. Might even be inviting it?

    128. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m going to go out on a total limb, and say that when the Framework Bill is passed, it’s a double win if the UK Gov try to take it to court to prevent Royal Assent.

      1). They’ll be seen to be trying to obstruct not just the Scottish Government but the will of the people for a referendum.

      2). Either their case will be thrown out, or they’ll lose.

    129. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      Yes, her speech was a little provocative when it came to the UKG …

    130. SilverDarling says:

      @yesindyref2

      PeatWorrier has been tearing out his (luxurious) hair at having to repeat himself. As many of us have tried to say on here, there may be a case either side but it has yet to be tested in court.
      https://twitter.com/PeatWorrier/status/1121051111023050752

      The FM will be relying on the political argument before it even gets that far. Imagine having to say ‘now is not the time’ or ‘because we say so’ as your justification for bringing it before the courts.

    131. desimond says:

      The Establishment have won….

      SNP and Nicola and her team have either been seduced by power or find themselves entrenched in the view they are fighting the power!…all the while…Westminster just howl like a big fat Kingpin making an exhausted Spiderman fight his battles all over town ( that’s Marvel not DC – Ed)

      The prime focus of Independence has now been replaced with “providing a competent devolved government and lets stick to looking at Independence as a long term outcome”.

      The best the SNP can hope for is people recognising the good job they are doing as a devolved Govt but then why would anyone want to change then doing the job they are good at…theyre hoisted on their own petard regardless of how worthy a cause they believe they have been championing especially in the years devoted to being “the good guys” on Brexit debates.

      I don’t believe Independence should be an option against Brexit, I believe in Independence..thats it. No comparisons, no excuses, no fudges dependent on a mad Tory Party tearing itself to bits.

      Im an SNP member of many many years and Im now resigned to the fact that this wave of opportunity is ebbing…we are looking at another decade or 20 years before the cause re-emerges as the raison-d’etre of the party.

      Its a shame, so it is but its the hope that kills.
      One day we will be free.

      PS…Can anyone also tell me why Ian Blackford was at the Irish journalists funeral..if it was representing Scotland..why?. It looked like nothing more than token photo opportunism and standing next to Arlene does nothing to help anyone but Arlene.

    132. Abulhaq says:

      @Thepnr
      Think what you may, my ancestors fought and one died, in Brit ruled Egypt aged 19, in the fight against the foreign colonialisms. I believe I know what the Brits and similar imperialists are actually like and how they think. I’m a New Scot and it does amaze me the degree of naivety I sometimes encounter. The system will keep hold of Scotland as long as there are legions of useful idiots. Not a few of those vote SNP.
      Làtha briagh dhuit! Have a good day!

    133. Socrates MacSporran says:

      That first question from Small Dick Leonard just might be the worst back-pass straight to an attacker to present them with an open goal.

      And Nicola disn’t miss. He is a total embarrassment.

    134. Thepnr says:

      @Abulhaq

      As I said, it is clear you have your own agenda.

    135. Legerwood says:

      Petra, Thepnr, Scotrenewables, yesindyref2

      Agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying in your posts.

    136. Bobp says:

      Mike cassidy 10.43am. ” is this another Scottish first” I dunno, nobody tells us anything good about scotchland down here in the shires. Had it been down here though, they would be shouting it from the rooftops as an example of how not racist brexiteers are.

    137. Luigi says:

      No plans? Scared? Clueless? Sold out?

      I don’t think so. 🙂

      I believe that the SG have a flexible set of plans and will taking on WM head on when the time is right. And there’s the crucial point.

      Brexit has to run its course

      How many times must this be repeated?

      The Brexit can will not be kicked down the road forever. Sure, it’s taking longer than expected, but it ain’t a never ending story, folks. Brexit has the Brit Nat imperialists completely trapped. There is no painless or constitutional safe way out for them. Sooner or later, something has to give, and when it does, Nicola will be ready to strike (whatever form it takes).

    138. Luigi says:

      At the moment we have a stand-off between the UK and Scottish governments.

      Why are people insisting that Nicola blinks first?

      Hold yer nerve – it won’t be forever. 🙂

    139. John Bell says:

      Yoon newspapers are in hyper SNP bad mood today. They must be rattled

    140. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Our FM knows that the next referendum when it comes will have to succeed or it’s game over.”

      But first there has to BE a next referendum.

    141. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Aw Stuart this is possibly the first time I have ever disagreed with anything you have written, does it matter if it’s this year or the year after or 2021 as long as it happens.”

      But that’s my point exactly. This plan does absolutely nothing to ensure it happens. It leaves us perpetually in the hands of Westminster.

    142. Baldeagle58 says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      25 April, 2019 at 11:40 am

      james obrian on lbc discussing indy

      Schrodinger, do you have a link for that?

    143. Douglas says:

      Re: desimond
      25 April, 2019 at 12:10 pm

      Ian Blackford was at Lyra McKee’s funeral in his official capacity as the elected leader of the SNP Westminster Group of MPs.

    144. Cactus says:

      Just finished listening to fmq’s on the wireless, good stuff, Nicola whipped them they ukUnionists again… what do you think?

      Yeah, there was a good Scottish caller on lbc radio with James at about 11:45am earlier

      9 days remaining to go

    145. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sinky says: 25 April, 2019 at 10:22 am:

      ” … Some on here don’t appreciate that we need a majority for independence and there is no obvious evidence for this at present.”

      That bit is spot on, Sinky.

      ” … I suggest instead of moaning on here they get out and canvass middle class voters as those are needed to win.”

      That bit is nearly correct but there is another bit needed to make it clear. In indyref1 the wonderful thing that happened was the sudden and Scotland wide birth of a spontaneous YES movement.

      The wonderful thing about the YES movement was that it was spontaneous, nationwide and no one person or organisation organised it – it just spontaneously happened and it then survived the loss of the referendum.

      … Another lost Indy Ref will kill it off for 50 year”

      No it will not. Not as long as the people of Scotland demand it but that needs a majority demanding it.

      Now here’s the thing – why is the YES movement now sitting on its hands waiting upon Nicola Sturgeon to lead them in indyref 2?

      The SNP made a point of NOT leading or incorporating the YES movement and the YES Movement did not require her, or the SNP, to lead it. What is more although many SNP members were in both organisations the YES movement did its own thing and did it wonderfully well.

      So the question now has to be – What the hell are you all waiting for? The strength of the YES movement was that it was NOT led by either the First Minister, the Scottish Government or the SNP as a political party. It was spontaneous.

      There were YES movement strange bedfellows with people from every political party and none working hard for the principle of Scottish independence. So I repeat – What the hell are you waiting for?

      Let Nicola and the legal eagles of the SG take on their opposite numbers in the Westminster/English/United Kingdom opposition while the legally sovereign people of Scotland make their obviously legal, “Claim of Right”.

      Let me make it crystal clear – The people of Scotland are legally sovereign and a sovereign’s word is law. No matter that Westminster claims it sovereign it is not and is on a hiding to nothing if a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland make their Claim of Right. The UK Supreme Court and the international courts have conceded that as fact.

      I’ll make it even clearer – Nicola Sturgeon cannot claim Scotland’s freedom and neither can a Scottish Government even with the facts being that as the United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of two kingdoms and thus if one of the partner kingdoms wants to legally end the union then Westminster would be thrown out of any court because Westminster is legally representing both partner kingdoms so has conflict of interest no matter who they support.

      The only way that Nicola, or the SG, can make a Claim of Right is with a clear mandate of the legally sovereign people of Scotland and no such mandate has yet been given to her. No Westminster dreamt up claptrap can overrule the claim of a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      Believe it or not but all the international bodies concede that ultimately, no matter what country or political state is involved, the people are ultimately sovereign. That is what is behind the Human Rights claims that, “Any identifiable group of people have the human right of self determination”.

      Scotland can only regain her independence when a majority of the people of Scotland demand their right to self determination. Why are you sitting waiting while demanding Nicola Sturgeon do it for you?

    146. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      There’s some very unpleasant innuendo being made in this thread.

      “So instead of belittling her ‘’plan’’ what about your ‘’plan’’, Stu? … ‘’deliverance from an external source’’ … being the Wings book that we contributed to and are still waiting for? Any chance of getting an update on that? As to Theresa May, she’s on the way out so why mention her at all and why promote someone like Nigel Farage on here?”

      Everyone who’s paid the tiniest bit of fucking attention in the last 12 months knows what my plan is – RESOLVE THE LEGALITY OF A HOLYROOD-CALLED REFERENDUM VIA THE COURTS.

      If we don’t do that we have ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE of getting one other than by the highly unlikely route of Jeremy Corbyn being dependent on SNP votes to be PM. Westminster really couldn’t have been any more clear – we’ll be waiting 20 years or more for another go, unless Yes falls so far behind in the polls that they’re absolutely certain of victory, and that’s not happening.

      Nicola Sturgeon can huff and puff at the UK government all she wants, they’re just going to keep telling her to piss off and without a court ruling there’s not a damn thing she can do about it.

      “External source” means other events forcing the issue, with regard to Brexit or general elections.

      A second Wee Blue Book will happen when there’s a second referendum. It would be idiotic to waste all that money now when there’s no vote to influence and when it would be colossally overtaken by events by the time there was.

      Nobody is “promoting” Nigel Farage, ffs. I’m pointing out that if his new party does really well in the Euro elections it MIGHT be one of the things that could get rid of Theresa May or trigger a general election, ie bring about the “external events” that I talked about over which the SNP have no control.

      “However I think the Revs articles have changed since his court judgement came out. I think he may be suffering some delayed ‘reaction’. I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but I’m rather concerned for ‘Wings’.

      You’re not on your own sassenach, however I reckon that the ”change” relates to something else altogether and came about quite some time ago.”

      I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Kindly explain.

    147. yesindyref2 says:

      @SilverDarling
      There’s too many on our side saying “We need a Section 30”, even including some stupid jounralists. NO, we don’t, not neccessarily, it just makes things a lot easier. I’ve posted this enough times, and I think it’s BDTT has done the same. From 2012 when this debate was going on to start with:

      https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2012/01/31/gavin-anderson-et-al-the-independence-referendum-legality-and-the-contested-constitution-widening-the-debate/

      And to take it a bit further, for the “advisory” bit, I also don’t think so. A YES vote expresses the self-determination of the People of Scotland, but it also expresses that Sovereignty of the People of Scotland. As far as I can see, it’s binding.

      And of course, it’s at that point if Westminster throws its toys out the pram, that the SG does actually take the UKG to court, and where the three legal Claims of Right come into it.

    148. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rev
      Everyone who’s paid the tiniest bit of fucking attention in the last 12 months knows what my plan is – RESOLVE THE LEGALITY OF A HOLYROOD-CALLED REFERENDUM VIA THE COURTS.

      You too have this THE WRONG WAY AROUND.

      The way it works is the same as the EU Continuity Bill. Holyrood passes it, and other parties including the UK Gov have one month to challenge it, otherwise it becomes Law unless the Queen withholds Royal Assent, something which hasn’t happened since 1708 or something like that, Queen Anne anyway.

      The SG does NOT have to take anyone to court to prove legality. It;s up to thers to prove ILLEGALITY.

    149. desimond says:

      @Douglas
      Ian Blackford was at Lyra McKee’s funeral in his official capacity as the elected leader of the SNP Westminster Group of MPs.

      Thanks for reply but doesn’t answer the question of Why?
      It was tragic of course but why should “SNP at Westminster” be represented there at all? I don’t view “playing diplomat” as being respectful to the dead at all.

      Would we expect the DUP or Sinn Féin to appear if similar event happened here, I very much doubt it.

    150. yesindyref2 says:

      “up to others”. I’m gettng agitated 🙂

    151. yesindyref2 says:

      @Silver Darling
      Peat Worrier said this:

      People who say: why not just call it tomorrow and dare Westminster to block it? We know the UK law officers can refer a Bill to the Supreme Court. But critically, any punter could too. That, as the Continuity Bill showed us, takes time and derails political timetables.

      In this he is incorrect. The UKSC heard the Miller Appeal quickly, in haste almost, and if asked for a good reason, such as an impending election, referendum, political things like invocation of Article 50, CAN advance the normal leisurely timetable. So can the ECJ as we saw.

      And since the UKSC does NOT want to be involved politically, it is very likely to oblige, else it gets roundly accused of interfering in a political activity.

      Peat Worrier sees the Law, not politics, at times. But since Law tries to avoid politics, it can’t ignore them.

      IMHO any challenge to a ScotGov Referendum Bill would be heard and ruled on at latest a month before the planned date.

    152. Ghillie says:

      Brian, hope your hospital appointment today goes well.

    153. HandandShrimp says:

      A strange day. The Yoonishly inclined are foaming at the mouth, Viking Warbler has returned with a vengeance and Wee Willie is begging for someone to make it stop and at the same time many on the Yes side wanted more.

      Stu is right in that a legal way forward is necessary although I’m not too phased with the Tory claims they won’t grant a S30. Not much they have been strong and stable on has come to pass or held firm.

      However, I do have one concern. May has stood down her “no deal” team. Either she is hopelessly optimistic on getting her deal through or she intends to give up on Brexit. If the latter then I don’t think there will be an Indyref2. At this point the indecision and uncertainty over Brexit leaves everything in the air. However, there does need to be a very cunning plan for holding a referendum should we fall out of the EU through mismanagement, incompetence or a palace coup. It could go either way. I wouldn’t like to call it.

    154. orri says:

      The plan is to prepare for a referendum ahead of any agreement from Westminster to abide by the result. That’s a perfect counter, even if subtle, to the Westminster has more to worry about.
      Any reasonable government would either have finalised it’s deal with cross party agreement or rescinded A50 at this point in time. Anyone who knows about the UKs constitution or listens to the more rabid of the Brexit brigade would know that any agreement without broad support might fail after the next GE.
      The plan might also be to force a gross error of judgement from Westminster. The Bill to hold a referendum has already been passed without the PO advising it was outwith the remit of Holyrood or it being struck down by the Supreme Court. Westminster might be able to legislate to revoke that. Doing so would be the biggest boost Yes could imagine.
      Note that none of the unionist parties at Holyrood have yet to threaten opposition to a referendum at all. It’s always once in a generation. Even the Westminster doesn’t have time for this bit is a repetition of now is not the time. Too fucking bad. The way things are going we could have a referendum before any agreement with the EU is reached. Certainly the SNP can do their best to derail things in Westminster.

    155. Robert Peffers says:

      @erry callachan says: 25 April, 2019 at 11:14 am:

      ” … Of course Scotland does not need a section 30 order to hold a Scottish independence referendum Scotland does not need England’s Westminster to give scotland permission to become an independent country”

      Wee gentle reminder, Terry. Legally there is no such thing as you claim, “England’s Westminster”. The fact that there isn’t is a very good legal point if/when the matters of Scottish independence gets into court, and no court, even the United Kingdom Supreme Court, would dare claim there was.

      Fact is the United Kingdom was constituted by The Treaty of Union and is thus a bipartite union of kingdoms and Westminster is thus legally the parliament of both equally sovereign kingdoms. In any court Westminster would be disqualified from fighting either kingdom’s corner against the other or against Westminster as being sovereign over one kingdom at its expense of the other. A clear conflict of interest. By the way there has been no kingdom of England parliament since 30 April 1707.

      Legally there is no English parliament to fight England’s corner. Westminster is 100% illegally operating as the de facto parliament of England.

    156. Ken500 says:

      A similar event would not happen in Scotland

      Ireland was illegally Partitioned by Westminster Unionists. Totally against International Law and Democracy. Brexit is increasing tensions in Ireland as the Tories were warned.

      All political parties at Westminster and Ireland were represented there as a mark of respect. Any relevant person can show respect and dignity at a funeral. Ian Blackford was there as a representative of the Scottish Gov to show respect to the Irish people. Extremely put upon by Westminster Unionists.

    157. Abulhaq says:

      Brexit party announce prospective candidate for Glasgow euroconstituency.
      Guess what, he’s a property developer. Scottish property on the up apparently.

    158. Petra says:

      @ Baldeagle58 says at 10:56 am … ”Petra, I stand corrected. Been one of these mornings, and really should have put brain in gear before posting my comment. ?”

      No problem Baldeagle58. I have mornings like that too, believe you me.

      …………………………

      All genuine Independence supporters, like myself, are totally frustrated with this delay, however that’s got nothing to do with Nicola Sturgeon at all, as we well know. As far as I can see she’s doing everything in her power, albeit extremely limited, to get us out of this madhouse …. against all odds. She’s made it clear that we’ll be holding an Independence Referendum in the very near future, has highlighted the potency of the Sovereign Scottish people and that:-

      “If we are successful in further growing the support and the demand for independence – and I will say more later this week about how we build that case – then no UK government will be able to deny the will of the people or stop that will being expressed.”

      That’s the part of her speech that unlocks that door, imo. Does anyone on here really think that if the polls were showing support for Independence, say being consistently over 55% Westminster could refuse a Section 30 order? Their, the Unionists, mantra up until now is that the majority of Scots don’t want Independence and they are generally correct. That’s the issue that we’ve got to rectify. It’s not just down to Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP to get support over the line, it’s our job too and everyone who constantly undermines Nicola Sturgeon undermines our cause.

      There’s loads of ways of getting the ”Truth” out there now and in the process converting others. Choose one or two (or more) and get on with it. The constant whining on here about Nicola, the SNP, the National, etc, tbh, comes across at the very least as being absolutely embarrassing and at worst totally destructive. I actually have a vision of many of the people posting on here (now), if they had lived in Scotland in the 14th Century, doing a runner when Robert the Bruce issued his call to arms. Thank goodness we’ve got thousands of people out there who seem to know what’s required of them and are actually getting on with it.

      Meanwhile the Herald is running with an article entitled:- ‘Scottish independence prospectus to be sent to every household in Scotland.’ You can bet your bottom dollar that the Unionists will follow suit now by sending out their wee (propaganda) book too.

      We could all start by signing this form. Bows, spears and pitchforks not required to do so and donating to get the SNP Independence guide out across Scotland. :-

      http://www.yes.scot/

      And think of subscribing to the National:-

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/04/24/support-the-nationals-10000-steps-campaign-and-get-your-own-wee-ginger-dug/

      Become an Independence Ambassador. Costs £5 a month:-

      http://www.businessforscotland.com/independence-ambassadors/

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      @H&S
      I meant to post this earlier but forgot:

      https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17596916.derek-mackay-refuses-to-rule-out-second-independence-referendum-if-brexit-cancelled/

      Which kind of answers that perhaps.

    160. Robert Peffers says:

      @Col says: 25 April, 2019 at 11:42 am:
      ” … Would it be legal for yes Scotland to start an international fundraising campaign?”

      Yes it probably would be legal as the YES Movement is a movement and not a political party but don’t quote me on that point as it is only my impression and I have no confirmation for it. In fact I have personally met Yessers from every one of the main United Kingdom political parties.

      Just for interest I’ve met both more, Labour and Tory Yessers than LibDem Yessers I can only remember ever meeting one LibDem who claimed to support independence.

    161. K1 says:

      Just a wee point of order. You don’t have to be a member of the SNP to receive emails from the SNP, if you are on any SNP mailing lists you tend to receive all relevant updates such as Keith Brown’s latest.

    162. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “You too have this THE WRONG WAY AROUND.

      The way it works is the same as the EU Continuity Bill. Holyrood passes it, and other parties including the UK Gov have one month to challenge it, otherwise it becomes Law unless the Queen withholds Royal Assent, something which hasn’t happened since 1708 or something like that, Queen Anne anyway.

      The SG does NOT have to take anyone to court to prove legality. It;s up to thers to prove ILLEGALITY.”

      Oh for fuck’s sake. Yes, that is the order in which events would happen. Other parties absolutely definitely would challenge it, and it would go to courts, which is where it WOULD BE RESOLVED. Which is precisely what I’m calling for the Scottish Government to do. Jesus.

    163. Jack Murphy says:

      OK let me get this right—- David Lidington the High Tory MP for Aylesbury just north of London comes to Scotland and tells us Scotland isn’t getting a self-determination referendum!

      This beggars belief. Another bag carrier for Theresa May and the Tories up here and down there.

    164. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, Peter A Bell posting in the National, good to see him back.

      Even if I disagree with him often 🙂

    165. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      ” Does anyone on here really think that if the polls were showing support for Independence, say being consistently over 55% Westminster could refuse a Section 30 order?”

      Yes, that’s exactly what anyone who isn’t an absolute idiot thinks. Have you watched the news in the last three years at all? Has it given you the impression of the UK government as an entity bound by a strong moral code of decency and justice as far as Scotland (or indeed anything else) is concerned, and one which would abandon its most fundamental policies just because some opinion polls were against them by a few percentage points? Christ alive.

      Scotland elected 56 out of 59 SNP MPs and Westminster just ignored them. Scotland’s parliament passed a democratic vote for a second referendum and Westminster just ignored them. You honestly think a few opinion polls are going to change their minds?

    166. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rev
      Here’s what you said: “Everyone who’s paid the tiniest bit of fucking attention in the last 12 months knows what my plan is – RESOLVE THE LEGALITY OF A HOLYROOD-CALLED REFERENDUM VIA THE COURTS.

      That’s not the same at all. It implies something being done in advance, not at the time or within a month after the actual event of the Bill passing with a majority. And this:

      Other parties absolutely definitely would challenge it, and it would go to courts

      Not neccessarily, in which case it becomes legal without any court action. A Bill becomes an Act, with the full force of Law – by default.

      That is not splitting hairs by the way, as you know yourself the way the media wrongly portrayed your case.

    167. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “That’s not the same at all. It implies something being done in advance, not at the time or within a month after the actual event of the Bill passing with a majority”

      I wrote it, I know what it fucking means and it’s not that. “Resolve the legality” means “resolve the legality”. The precise order of the events which achieve that don’t matter a shite.

      “Not neccessarily”

      Oh my God you can’t really be that stupid.

    168. cassandra says:

      @’Peffers’

      “Just for interest I’ve met both more, Labour and Tory Yessers than LibDem Yessers I can only remember ever meeting one LibDem who claimed to support independence.”

      Are you insinuating the Rev is not a ‘Yesser’? Otherwise what is the point of that post?

    169. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rev “Oh my God you can’t really be that stupid.

      Rev, I would be really stupid if I posted what I really think is and has been going on.

      Think about it.

    170. Ghillie says:

      Oh Rev Stu, I have never seen Nicola Sturgeon ‘huff and puff’.

      I’m also pretty certain that any tactic you or any of us can imagine has already been considered by our First Minister and team 🙂

    171. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh, and raise your optimism levels a bit. Well, a lot, actually.

      Do you, for instance, think it’s pure coincidence the National made a big splash today, with “so little notice”?

    172. geeo says:

      Hmm…

      Lowest pensions in the developed world .

      Pension Credits about to be slashed by £7000 for couples where one is a pensioner and the other isn’t.

      And now this:
      ……..

      Scrap pensioner benefits to help youths, peers urge government in report.

      ……..

      http://archive.is/QZnt4

      Scary stuff, yet pensioners mostly vote and vote for the mob doing this to them.

      Go figure.

    173. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Rev, I would be really stupid if I posted what I really think is and has been going on.

      Think about it.”

      Just so we’re clear: what you’re suggesting is that we’d call an indyref, which could be opposed in the courts by ABSOLUTELY ANYONE (it doesn’t have to be a political party or a government, any ordinary Joe in the streets could do it), and nobody actually would? That every last Unionist in Scotland would just let us carry on with nobody raising an objection?

      Because to be clear, if you think that then you’re a complete lunatic and shouldn’t be let outdoors without supervision.

    174. Breeks says:


      mogabee says:
      25 April, 2019 at 11:08 am
      Breeks

      Brian Lucey has definitely posted before.

      Can we all stop with accusations towards other posters. It’s really ok to disagree with someone, that is normal but nastiness is unwarranted…

      Err, I wasn’t being nasty. If I was, it was completely unintentional.

    175. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 13:48,

      This is true. I’m not a member but I’m registered with them from previous actions and consequently also got the KB e-mail.

      And though not a member, I’m not proposimg to quit the SNP either, if you see what I mean. I just don’t understand the “my road or the high road” mentality. At best it seems to indicate nothing more than a level of immaturity in the person uttering the empty threat.

      Or with at least one serial arriviste, claiming to be renouncing membership then launching into rather implausible diatribes against the SNP, possibly something else entirely. I’m getting to the point of expecting any new arrival with a first name moniker to be some kind of plant.

      The nadir of this particular intervention being an assertion that the EU elections should be ignored as worthless. Oh, really? The first electoral challenge that can provide a real airing of the pro-indy case?

      I can understand why normally calm posters might run out of patience with that kind of interference.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rev
      Good grief are you still clutching desperately to your own quivering feartie version of reality? Because if you can’t remember that NOBODY challenged Indy Ref 1 in court – though they could have done – you’re a complete brain-dead wank-hole of an arsehole diplodocus pile of smelly turds.

    177. K1 says:

      ‘I can understand why normally calm posters might run out of patience with that kind of interference.’

      Quite so Robert, quite so.

    178. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Good grief are you still clutching desperately to your own quivering feartie version of reality? Because if you can’t remember that NOBODY challenged Indy Ref 1 in court – though they could have done”

      No they couldn’t, you dolt. Because it was conducted under a Section 30 order, which meant it definitely and unarguably WAS legal. Bloody hell.

    179. yesindyref2 says:

      You still don’t get it do you, you curvy overripe banana? ANY legislation can be challenged in court.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh I forgot to end that post with “Holy shite”.

    181. geeo says:

      @yesindyref2 : “you’re a complete brain-dead wank-hole of an arsehole diplodocus pile of smelly turds”.
      ……….

      Can i steal that to insult a good mate of mine ?

      It would take him 3 days to figure out !!!

    182. Stoker says:

      Abulhaq typed on 25 April, 2019 at 11:34 am:

      “@Thepnr………….
      Interestingly, you read ScotBrit unionist press, I don’t.”

      You’ll find that about him,Abulhaq, as well as being quick to decide who is & who isn’t genuine etc, he helps promote the BUM rags that crap all over Scotland. The Hootsman & The Dirty Redcoat etc, then he’s got the neck to accuse others of having their own agenda. You’re not the first he’s had a pop at & no doubt you will not be the last. Please keep putting your alternative views across. Refreshing!

      BTW, Abulhaq, please don’t waste your time responding to this post because nowadays i only visit WOS for the articles & occasionally i may quickly scan the btl comments to see if anything’s changed & leave a comment or two. Mostly just for the articles though, that includes the great collection in the archives, if you ever get the time there’s a ton of brilliant material in there. Keep it real, just like the Rev.

    183. Thepnr says:

      @Stoker

      Where have you been?

    184. Petra says:

      I see that I’ve received two posts from Stu! Looks as though I’m on the naughty step, lol.

      @ Rev. Stuart Campbell says at 12:52pm … ”There’s some very unpleasant innuendo being made in this thread.”

      Firstly I didn’t see my post as being one of ”innuendo” at all. I was just stating my opinion with regard to points, or lack of them imo, outlined in your article which I wasn’t impressed with in general. And just to add that this isn’t my customary opinion of your articles overall.

      I had no idea that the launch of your book related to the ”resolving of the legality of a Holyrood-called referendum via the Courts” at all. The first I’ve heard of it. And of course if that did come to pass, and if challenged, we could lose the Case. What then?

      I also think that you’re being pessimistic, Stu, and not taking account of the many twists and turns in this saga that could come to pass over time. Jeremy Corbyn could quite easily become the next PM and when it comes right down to it we don’t need a Section 30 order at all to hold an IndyRef2 (plus whatever Nicola Sturgeon has in mind such as, ”We will seek agreement to a transfer of power at an appropriate point during or shortly after the Bill’s passage, on the basis that it will be exercised when this Parliament – and no other – considers it right to offer the people of Scotland a choice.”) Strengthened if support for Independence rises say, due to the contents of your Blue Book.

      You don’t know what Nicola Sturgeon is planning to do either other than, as you say,”huffing and puffing at the UK Government”. I, on the other hand, don’t think that she’s stupid enough to divulge her plans in entirety at this time. You state that, ”crucially, no steps were announced to resolve the question of whether Holyrood has the legal power under the Scotland Act to conduct an indyref or not.” Who knows maybe she’s already discussed this with Constitutional / legal experts (surely has) and been told it would be absolutely futile. If so, do you really think that she would disclose this type of advice to all and sundry?

      You say that a second Blue Book will happen when there’s a second referendum and yet Nicola Sturgeon has stated that she will be holding one within this Parliamentary term. In other words between now and May 2021. I can’t understand why you don’t distribute it now to increase the level of support. You reckon that ”now is not the time”, not unlike the stance that Nicola Sturgeon’s is taking right now, due to the current data ”being overtaken by further events” (out of date). Surely those that you could convince right now with the contents of your Blue Book would become more enlightened as a result and take that into account? Keep up to date thereafter with events themselves. Or if need be, say IndyRef2 wasn’t held until at the latest at the beginning of 2021 (no way!), if there was no money left in the pot we could go onto fund-raise to get updated fliers sent out.

      You say that you weren’t promoting Farage, rather pointing out that his popularity could oust T May when you stated at the end of your article … ”ironically, the best hope for Scottish independence may now be Nigel Farage.” Well I know what you were implying, and I also know that ”external events” OTHER than Farage could oust T May too, but the wording in your article in relation to Farage was so obscure, imo, that it could have negatively influenced irregular visitors or newcomers to the site.

      As to the ”change” that I referred to, well I reckon that things, such as the type and content of some articles and the monitoring of the site, have changed on here, since shortly after your office was raided by the Police. Some others thought it had to do with the Dugdale case. I hope that clarifies my comments.

      ……………………

      @ Rev. Stuart Campbell says at 2:02 pm … Petra -”Does anyone on here really think that if the polls were showing support for Independence, say being consistently over 55% Westminster could refuse a Section 30 order?”

      ”Yes, that’s exactly what anyone who isn’t an absolute idiot thinks. Have you watched the news in the last three years at all? Has it given you the impression of the UK government as an entity bound by a strong moral code of decency and justice as far as Scotland (or indeed anything else) is concerned? Christ alive. Scotland elected 56 out of 59 SNP MPs and Westminster just ignored them. Scotland’s parliament passed a democratic vote for a second referendum and Westminster just ignored them. You honestly think a few opinion polls are going to change their minds?”

      Well this idiot, who watches the news every night and is well aware of how devious and despicable the Westminster crew are, reckons that if over 55% of Sovereign Scots indicate that they want their country to become independent Westminster will have no choice other than to agree to a Referendum being held, even if it means being pressurized ultimately by the EU/UN (Courts), as happened with devolution initially. They can ignore Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish Parliament and our MSP’s / MP’s all they like, but to my mind they’ll be pushing their luck if they try to face down the vast majority of Sovereign Scots. Once again, just my opinion.

      Then again maybe it’s Nicola Sturgeon’s too.

      ”If we are successful in further growing the support and the demand for independence – and I will say more later this week about how we build that case – then no UK government will be able to deny the will of the people or stop that will being expressed.”

    185. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’m just lovin’ this bromance featuring yesindyref2 and Rev Stu.

      More entertaining than “The Life Of Brian”…

    186. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Onnyhoo, whilst browsing my FaceBook news feed, I came across this story in “The National”. Here’s a quote from it:-

      “The rules of the European Union state that you must have had your own currency and central bank for three years before applying for membership.”

      Now, I raised my Roger eyebrow at that because, since 2013, I have been absorbing all kind of news about indy from all over the place but that’s the first time I have seen this particular contention uttered. There was no rebuttal from “The National” and, so far, nobody has referred to it in the BTL comments.

      Why is it possible for this “false news” to still be propagated without thinking it could be contested?

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17592669.growth-commission-proposals-threaten-unity-of-the-yes-movement/?fbclid=IwAR0jQZZc1qP5SYn-9NKUaREpROlp_OZprkcV4lF7hAPd5cvdqb3GUk_VuvA

      https://theferret.scot/independent-scotland-join-the-euro/

      If I’ve missed this, somehow, I apologise for time-wasting.

    187. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      The statement is false as you need not have your own currency or a central bank to apply to be a member of the European Union.

      If however you want to use the Euro as your currency then those rules do apply, so there’s another reason that Scotland couldn’t be “forced to use the euro”.

    188. qwertyfiable says:

      Some really high quality contributions here as always. Stu, do you think better management of the optics ahead of your own recent court case might have produced a different ruling?

    189. Petra says:

      I’ve just been reading the Sun newspaper and I’m not surprised to see that they are now quoting from this very article …

      “There was an immediate backlash (to Nicola Sturgeon’s speech) from grassroots Indy supporters – and a luke warm reception from senior SNP figures.

      “Stuart Campbell of the Wings over Scotland blog, said the SNP was “frozen in the headlights” and labelled the speech “a stalling exercise designed to appease the membership and Yes movement.”

      “Influential Indy activist Craig Murray said Ms Sturgeon’s announcement of a cross-party Citizen’s Assembly – to help find consensus on issues was “designed to kick the can down the road.”

      Jonathon Shafi of the Radical Independence Campaign said …

      MP Angus MacNeil said …

      Jim Sillars said …

      Jackson Carlaw said …

      Richard Leonard said …

      Wullie Rennie said …

      David Mundell said …

      A senior Tory source added …

      PM Theresa May’s spokesman said …”

      Too long to type in full but all making negative comments about Nicola Sturgeon and her speech other than Angus MacNeil. A sad day for me seeing Stu’s name being added to this list.

      …………

      And not surprising to see that one of the main stumbling blocks to us getting our Independence, as mentioned in my last post, is the first article of the day. And yes I know how the Sun reports!

      ‘SNP have ‘triple-lock mandate’ for rerun.’

      “The First Minister insists that she has a “triple-lock” mandate to hold IndyRef2.

      But opponents point out she made a public promise not to stage one unless polls show majority support for Independence – which they still don’t have.

      She points to three things which means she has a right to hold a vote before the 2021 Scots Government Elections.

      Firstly, the SNP’s manifesto for the 2016 Holyrood ballot, which stated they should “have the right” to hold another vote if a majority wanted it.

      Secondly, in March 2017, MSP’s voted in favour of seeking permission to hold a vote before the UK leaves the EU.

      Thirdly, the Nats’ manifesto for the 2017 General Election. It read: “If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats, that would complete a triple-lock, reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists.”

      But Pro-Union rivals claim Ms Sturgeon is breaking public promises made in 2018.

      Just four of 51 polls since June 2016 have shown a Yes majority, with polling in recent weeks suggesting the Yes / No split could be 40/60 or wider.

      ……………

      And in the Sun top news item column following a damning account of the SNP’s h*llish track record in relation to their ability to do the “day job”, they state, “No, the big problem facing Ms Sturgeon is “growing support for Independence.”

      Meanwhile we’re sitting on the Wee Blue Book.

    190. Cubby says:

      For what its worth I have always held the view that Cameron only agreed a sect 30 because his advisors told him there was no chance of the Scots voting for independence. The closer it gets that Yes might win the less likely any UK PM will agree a sect 30. Therefore a sect 30 will probably only be agreed when the chance of Yes winning is very low – not much use. As we build up support for independence a Sect 30 is highly unlikely.

      Sturgeon has previously said she would PREFER a sect 30. This is not MUST have a sect 30.

      Westminster wants to keep Scotland prisoner. They are not going to help Scotland be free. You just have to remember all the threats during indyref1 as the polls narrowed.

    191. Ghillie says:

      Petra, don’t Rev Stu’s own polls show that a desire for Independence rises with the advent of Brexit?

      And by that, I do not mean that folk need to feel the pain that Brexit will bring (nobody deserves that!) but that many folk need to actually see Brexit happen to believe that it is real.

      That is what it will maybe take for the other half of the population of Scotland to wake up to the need to control our own future AND in my opinion, more importantly, wake up to the possibilities for life in Independent Scotland =)

      And that fulfills the SNP Manifesto of 2016.

      It’s coming yet for aw that 🙂

    192. geeo says:

      @petra 8.06pm

      Good post, and glad to see another positive voice.

      I would just add, that anyone waiting on OPINION POLLS in the MSM to show indy support over 50% is in for a long wait.

      They only released THAT poll in 2014 to scare unionists to the polling booths.

      Scenario:

      Daily Mail / multiple other unionist media outlets, commission an opinion poll each, which ALL return Yes 56% No 44%.

      Which of the following things happens next.

      A) Banner headlines proclaiming “INDY CERTAIN IN 56% YES POLL SHOCKER”

      B) Poll? What poll ?

      Anyone thinks its A) then i have rocking horse shit for sale, £1000/ ounce.
      ………..

      I also liked your later post re: selective reporting of comments from Wings in the Media.

      Notably how they never referenced your positive posts, nor Yesindyref2/Thepnr and myself, amongst many others.

      The problem for that media is, its an own goal, as folk will rush to wings to ‘witness the infighting’ on here, but in doing so, they get to read the many positive messages and thoughts by folk like yourself etc.

      They get to read a positive argument they would never have done if it was not for the media distortion.

      Stay positive folks, we absolutely ARE winning here.

    193. geeo says:

      @Cubby 9.47pm

      “Sturgeon has previously said she would PREFER a sect 30. This is not MUST have a sect 30”.
      ………..

      THIS every time.

      It was not ‘hidden’ in the small print, it was front and center of that particular statement, yet ignored by the media, and seemingly (bizzarely) by some on the Yes side.

      Well said, Cubby.

    194. Mary miles says:

      Hi from Tassie:

      Sad to see all the anger building because of no immediate action being taken for freedom of Scotland from union but I suppose we have to trust Holyrood to know what’s best as hopefully they have all the information for how to proceed. I did wonder though why matter not being dealt with through the Courts as Stu says. Seems obvious that England isn’t going to let go and will continue to try and hold on to Scotland as tightly as possible. It’s obvious that the politicians and establishment in England will never be of a mindset to let is happen. It is such a riddiculous situation.

      I think the worse thing that can happen is for anger and disunity to occur amongst those who wish Scotland to leave the union. I do hope that everyone holds together as its all for one and one for all which will achieve the break of the union in the end. Stay strong and together and continue to fight for an independent Scotland as it will suit the English politicians and establishment for in fighting now. I do know how you all feel – the msm, the trolls, the complete unfairness of the situation but please don’t fall out with each other as the union is probably depending on that.

      Special good wishes to Robert Peffers – I do hope your health is improving. Thank you for all the time you have given for the cause Robert and I do hope you will be able to celebrate in the not too distant future! You are a shining light!

      Love to everyone who fights for Scotland’s Freedom!

    195. yesindyref2 says:

      @geeo
      I think it’s important to have both positive and negative views about the likes of Sturgeon’s speech, because that puts us in touch with the undecideds and noes.

      Think of a YES stall, with two campaigners trying to get attention from passers-by, with the same message, where people swerve to avoid them or even cross the road.

      Then think of two campaigners festooned wiuth YES badges having an argument about which form of YES, or even when should we have Indy Ref 2, the passer-by comes over to see what the fuss is about, and after a few seconds, the two YES campaigners turn to the punter and say “What do you think?”.

    196. yesindyref2 says:

      @BDTT
      He came back with “dolt”. dolt! The reverse way it was going he’d have been calling me wise and knowledgeable next, and what could I have done back then? I was doomed, doomed I tell you. Good grief 🙂

      @geeo
      Help yourself 🙂

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      @BDTT @8.40pm
      I missed that article at the time, a bit late now but I did post this:

      Craig, I like your work, but this is totally wrong:

      “The rules of the European Union state that you must have had your own currency and central bank for three years before applying for membership.”

      No they don’t. Here is what the EU says about it:

      https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/conditions-membership_en

      and note carefully this, which is a coverall for anything the EU discusses, basically:

      “transitional arrangements – sometimes certain rules are phased in gradually, to give the new member or existing members time to adapt.”

      There’s also this:

      https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/glossary/terms/accession-criteria_en

      Central bank and own currency are NOT mentioned.

      The condition you mention may well apply to the eurozone, not actual accession. For accession, it’s the Copenhagen Criteria:

      ————-
      political criteria: stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;

      economic criteria: a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces;

      administrative and institutional capacity to effectively implement the acquis* and ability to take on the obligations of membership.
      —————

      I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve corrected that misconception, and as you say, time it was stopped dead.

    198. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Well this idiot, who watches the news every night and is well aware of how devious and despicable the Westminster crew are, reckons that if over 55% of Sovereign Scots indicate that they want their country to become independent Westminster will have no choice other than to agree to a Referendum being held, even if it means being pressurized ultimately by the EU/UN (Courts), as happened with devolution initially. They can ignore Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish Parliament and our MSP’s / MP’s all they like, but to my mind they’ll be pushing their luck if they try to face down the vast majority of Sovereign Scots.”

      (1) 55% is not a “vast majority” of anything. Do you think we lost to a “vast majority” in 2014?

      (2) The EU/UN doesn’t give a shit about opinion polls. They MIGHT just conceivably take an interest if we got 55% in an actual proper referendum and were denied independence, but *COUGHS AND POINTS AT FUCKING CATALONIA*.

      (3) And of course (2) is a moot point anyway since we currently have no way to get that referendum.

      You’re living in a fantasy world. And that’s fine if it makes you happy, but if you continue to use it as an excuse to make thinly-veiled allegations then you can fuck off. You’ve been warned.

    199. Petra says:

      @ Rev. Stu Campbell at 11:50 am …….. “Thinly-veiled allegations you can F off.”

      What thinly-veiled allegations? I don’t get it!

      “(3) And of course (2) is a moot point anyway since we currently have no way to get that referendum.”

      I’m living in a fantasy world? And yet just two articles on you’re highlighting a way that we actually could get one. That idea came from someone? with 8 or whatever followers on Twitter. I would imagine that Nicola Sturgeon, in consultation with experts, will have a better idea than “someone” (can’t go back to check out who) as to how we can get our Independence.

    200. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I would imagine that Nicola Sturgeon, in consultation with experts, will have a better idea than “someone” (can’t go back to check out who) as to how we can get our Independence.”

      Then where the fuck is it? Brexit was three years ago and we’ve made precisely zero progress. We don’t have infinite time.

    201. Petra says:

      @ Rev. Stuart Campbell says at 11:38 pm … ”Petra says:- “I would imagine that Nicola Sturgeon, in consultation with experts, will have a better idea than “someone” (can’t go back to check out who) as to how we can get our Independence.”

      ”Then where the fuck is it? Brexit was three years ago and we’ve made precisely zero progress. We don’t have infinite time.”

      The result of the EU Referendum was three years ago. Brexit in fact hasn’t taken place yet at all, therefore people like Nicola Sturgeon don’t know how this is going to pan out, as an example Big T could call the whole thing off. Nicola Sturgeon needs to know how this stage of the Brexit process is going to be taken forward before she can stand up and make a comparison between one and the other: Brexit (type) or Independence.

      We don’t have infinite time right enough. We’ve made zero progress right enough too. You know how this saga has twisted and turned. We should have been at this stage 6 months ago, but we’re not due to the madhouse in London. This fiasco is down to Westminster, not Nicola Sturgeon. You could in fact help her out, as an example getting the wee blue book out to move the whole situation along, Stu. Running her down to the ground in your articles doesn’t help us one whit. FAR from it. All it does is get your name in the Unionist press … agreeing with the Unionists.

    202. yesindyref2 says:

      Hotdog to Romeo, Daz washes whiter than white, I repeat, Daz washes whiter than white. You are go for the big wash.

    203. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “We don’t have infinite time right enough. We’ve made zero progress right enough too. You know how this saga has twisted and turned. We should have been at this stage 6 months ago, but we’re not due to the madhouse in London.”

      We should have been far beyond this stage. Not the UK government, not Theresa May, US. We should have been to the Supreme Court and finished by now, so that WE could decide when the best time for a referendum was. It’s nobody’s fault but the Scottish Government’s.

      You sound like a Rangers fan in 2010 and 2011, raging at the people who were trying to wake them up before it was too late.

    204. Osakisushi says:

      I am genuinely starting to wonder if NS has been promised a seat in the HoL.

      This is getting ridiculous. From the “airgun licence consultation” to which 87% were again to even the Dunoon Ferry Action Group – our own green ink brigade who’ve accomplished zilch, the Scottish Govt is seriously starting to concern me.



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