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The new binary

Posted on August 31, 2015 by

We can’t help feeling there’s a simpler way of putting that.

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  1. 31 08 15 12:43

    The new binary | Speymouth
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  2. 31 03 19 06:58

    Wings Over Scotland has a problem with Cymraeg as well as Gàidhlig | Newsfeed Cymru
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252 to “The new binary”

  1. Mark
    Ignored
    says:

    Non-nonsensical

  2. John Moss
    Ignored
    says:

    ‘Non-women’….sounds like sexula discrimination to me.

  3. Murray McCallum
    Ignored
    says:

    Maybe the selection process has been opened up to other species or alien life forms?

    What other reason is there for the use of such a catch-all term?

  4. Tony Little
    Ignored
    says:

    I can’t help but say

    “It’s Political Correctness gone mad!” In an odd Home Counties voice.

    Is the term “men” now persona non grata in the Green Party?

  5. K1
    Ignored
    says:

    Leaves me non-plussed.

    (coat in hand…out the door)

  6. Bill Steele
    Ignored
    says:

    The relevant article in Bright Green says that “John Finney … left the SNP when they switched to being pro-Trident …”

    I’ve been somewhat out of touch since moving back to Canada, but I was not aware that the SNP had become pro-Trident. Would someone please give references, dates etc. when this happened?

  7. Alan Mackintosh
    Ignored
    says:

    Bill, its the green version of SNP bad, no references allowed, just inferences.

  8. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    The correct first order definition of men is wapmen and women.

  9. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    Which raises the question – does a lady who has had a hysterectomy fall in the first or second of their classes?

  10. Anagach
    Ignored
    says:

    So the Greens split into Women and the others, which I guess are Men, Trans, Intersex, Non-Gender specific, small furry woodland creatures.

  11. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    That’s an insult to my non-womanhood!

  12. jimnarlene
    Ignored
    says:

    In the name o’ the wee non-woman.

  13. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    It is one of those arrow of time things; you can differentiate men into wapmen and women but when you integrate wapmen and women you dont get men you get children. Isn’t mathematics wonderful! 🙂

    My minders have my coat, I should have had the pills when I got up!

  14. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    Perhaps dolphins.

  15. muttley79
    Ignored
    says:

    Bizarre. This kind of thing puts me off the Greens, as well as their knee jerk opposition to road building among other things. It is a shame because they have good ideas on land reform and taxation imo.

  16. MJT
    Ignored
    says:

    When you scroll down the article they use the terms ‘Women’ and ‘Not Women’ – so maybe this is all just work in progress and they’re figuring out their terminology in public. And, maybe Non/Not Women includes G&T candidates, from LGBT. I dunno it’s hard to make rules about this stuff.

    I don’t mind ticking a box that says Non Woman if that’s the road we’re going down as an infant species. I don’t mind hostesses and non hostesses and mistresses of ceremonies saying ‘ladies and not ladies’ And gents toilets being renamed as ‘Not the Ladies’ with a new symbol, we need new symbols.

  17. Paula Rose
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh no Dusty will never be the same again –

    The only non-woman who could ever reach me
    Was the non-daughter of a preacher non-woman

    and as for Burns –

    A non-woman’s a non-woman for a’ that.

  18. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    Good grief!

    That is all.

  19. Socrates MacSporran
    Ignored
    says:

    This is definitely off-topic, but, I thought I’d raise it anyway.

    Nothing showing this morning on the Daily Heil’s website about Wee Eck ditching the bended-knee, forelock-tugging usual sign-off in his responses to Chick Rothesay’s “black spider” letters.

    Are Quentin Letts, Max Hastings and the usual suspects all off for the English August Bank Holiday? Has news of Eck’s lack of respect for one’s royal personage not yet reached London, or Tuscany, or the Planet Zonk?

    I await the backlash with interest.

  20. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    Aye, it’s a non-woman’s world, right enough. 🙂

  21. Jean-Loup
    Ignored
    says:

    Can someone explain to me why this site is suddenly having a go at the Greens? Have you finally become bored of Labour?

    Have you tried contacting Adam Ramsay to find out why he’s using that wording? Yes it’s not very bright but surely news must be slow for Wings to dig out a blog post from February to make what point exactly?

  22. Johnny
    Ignored
    says:

    A strange sort of othering is what it looks like. I wonder what’s wrong with ‘female’ and ‘male’? I wonder how Andy Wightman et al feel about learning they are ‘non-women’?

  23. Mrs Grimble
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s nonsense even in PC terms – you call people by the gender they wish to be known as. As far as I know, both Peter MacColl and Andy Wrightman define themselves as men and wish to be called “men”. So calling them “non-women” is disrespectful at the very least!

  24. Legerwood
    Ignored
    says:

    If it is ‘non-woman’ then that leaves it open to all remaining species on the planet.

    So far they have two non-woman’ otherwise known as men, anyone want to enter their dog, rabbiut, tortoise etc in this race?

  25. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Can someone explain to me why this site is suddenly having a go at the Greens?

    Chillax. Its pretty funny, and goes on to-

    Not women:

    Jason Rose. Jason is head of media for the Green MSP

  26. Amber Heath
    Ignored
    says:

    There are more than 2 genders you know. Might not be the most delicate phrasing but it is the most inclusive. The Greens unrepetant stance on practical gender, sexual and racial equality is something to be admired not mocked.

  27. hoss mackintosh
    Ignored
    says:

    Bill,

    John Finney left the SNP as a protest about them staying in NATO not about the SNP being pro-Trident. He is still an independent MSP but is going to stand for the Greens at SE16.

    He will be the top list candidate for the Highlands standing as a non-woman.

    https://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/news/scottish-greens-confirm-regional-lists-for-holyrood-2016/

  28. Clare
    Ignored
    says:

    But gender isn’t binary.

    I’m not familiar with the best forms of terminology but I do like to see recognition that the labels ‘Male’ and ‘Female’ do not fit everyone.

  29. John Moss
    Ignored
    says:

    @Jean-Loup

    Why bother asking anyone why ‘non-women’ is being used instead of ‘men’? Nonsense is non-sense, no matter whose political party it comes from.

    Chill.

  30. Kennedy
    Ignored
    says:

    This is Newspeak green style.

    Is this gender balance gone mad?

    OT:
    Anybody seen The Cheviot, The Stag & The Black Black Oil? It’s playing at The Rep in Dundee and I was thinking of going.

  31. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    As a non-woman myself am I allowed to express an opinion or would that be non-correct even although I would attempt being non-partisan in my opinion, allowed or non-allowed, or is this a non-story gone wrong by non-politicians attempting to be all things to all non-men

  32. Alex McArthur
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s a bit like Americans trying to normalise genital mutilation by calling us uncircumcised.

  33. scotspine
    Ignored
    says:

    Jean-Loup

    It seems that the document that the Greens printed and has been copied above contains the inaccuracy that SNP are now Pro-Trident. Naughty, vote-splitting SNP bad smearing.

    With friends like that (pro independence? – maybe), who needs enemies.

    The best chance of our objective is SNP-SNP voting at the Holyrood elections…..period (as our Independent American cousins would say.

  34. donald anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Are the Green Onionists and saft Indies truning Orange?

    How is Bitter Together, former cabbage leader, Len Harper doing these days?

  35. Kennedy
    Ignored
    says:

    Does that mean Andy Wightman is fourth on the green list?

    I’m SNP all the way but I would like Mr Wightman in Holyrood. He has much to contribute to land reform in an independent Scotland.

    Any Wingers read his book “The poor had no lawyers”?

  36. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Bill Steele

    Hi Bill, At no time ever in the SNP history has it been Pro Trident, This is a reference to Scotland remaining in the Nato Alliance should Scotland gain it’s Independence which of course many countries are a member of that organisation even though they have no WMDs

    The Greens enjoy mischief making over that position for cheap political points, as does every other party who’s only strategy is SNP bad because in fact SNP record in Government which will be emphasised this Session is excellent despite the Drivel the opposition and the BBC between them try to cook up to inform the misinformed

  37. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Alex McArthur says:
    31 August, 2015 at 12:33 pm
    It’s a bit like Americans trying to normalise genital mutilation by calling us uncircumcised.

    No its not. It’s dopey stuff from a dopey party. Sorry Greens, je suis frae Aberdeen, where we live the Green dream/fiasco.

  38. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    Jean-Loup says:

    31 August, 2015 at 12:15 pm

    Can someone explain to me why this site is suddenly having a go at the Greens? Have you finally become bored of Labour?

    Because ‘non-women’ is such a seriously ridiculous, idiotic term, it’s author should be taken to task (before he/she does any more damage). The MSM tend to ignore the greens because they are not considered a serious threat to the establishment. Start picking up in the polls, however, and they will be crucified for antics like this. If the greens want to be taken seriously, they have to grow up and act a bit more professionally. And I say that as a potential supporter/voter.

    Take it as constructive criticism, or constructive ridicule! Learn and move on.

  39. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    At last, recognition that none of us are 100% ourselves. Our bodies are superorganisms consisting of human and non-human matter working in combination.

    ‘Mon the microbes. 🙂

    Seriously though, until the ‘Scottish’ Greens make independence their top Constitutional goals, I’ll simply consider them as another Communist Party (i.e. a ‘protest party’ controlled by the Establishment).

  40. Jamie Arriere
    Ignored
    says:

    Maybe the pandas are finally going to stand…they seem to be bugger all use at anything else.

  41. gus1940
    Ignored
    says:

    Re The Cheviot etc. am I right in saying that The BBC have never repeated it since the original transmission?

    Does the tape stillo exist?

    If Yes surely in these days of finacial constraint at The BBC it would be possible to broadcast it at little or no expense.

    Still, I suppose the main reason for not broadcasting it is that it contravenes their biased unionist agenda.

    The same applies to Dommhair which has I understand never been broadcast on terrestrial TV.

  42. Johannes Climacus
    Ignored
    says:

    Isn’t this the language of apartheid?

    http://overexposed.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/non-whites-only.jpg

  43. gus1940
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T

    Given that it looks as if Fergusons is going to land the contarct to build the 2 new Calmac Ferries is there any legal reason why The Scottish Goverbmnt could not go ahead and order 2 ferries up to the old Superfast Standard to operate a daily vehicle and passenger service from Rosyth to Zeebrugge.

    The vessels could be owned by the Calmac Holding Company and operated either by Calmac or chartered to one of the existing European Ferry Operators.

    Calmac receive government subsidy so why should a service to the continent not receive adequate subsidy?

  44. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    With regard to the Green candidate lists for 2016, seeing some of the usual unionist suspects up there, IMO all Green candidates need to be asked personally, in front of a public audience, if they support independence. Many potential green voters will not support any unionist candidate, so they have to come clean and declare their support or opposition to independence. Depending on the parliamentary arithmetic post May 2016, a number of unionist greens at Holyrood could be problematic for IndyRef 2 when it comes.

    So folks, of you attend one of the many debates between now and May 2016, you know what to ask the Green candidate.

  45. G H Graham
    Ignored
    says:

    Animal, vegetable or mineral?

  46. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Kennedy
    I agree. Andy Wightman would be a real asset in Holyrood. His book “The Poor had No Lawyers” is excellent. I hope he is still no2 on the Green list.
    And “The Cheviot, the Stag and the Black Black Oil” is on youtube.
    But a live performance would be worth seeing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-r_J14n100

  47. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Jean-Loup
    Hi, why do the ‘Scottish’ Greens not recognise that without Scottish independence, there is no chance of obtaining any of your main objectives? You are an autonomous party, aren’t you, able to make policy decisions independent of England?

  48. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    A non-woman’s a non-woman for a’ that.

    lol

  49. Chitterinlicht
    Ignored
    says:

    So I am a non women married to a non man.

  50. Tackety Beets
    Ignored
    says:

    Hoss @ 12.36 & Bill Steele

    Being picky , I know ” John Finnie ”

    Anyway yes what Hoss Says.

  51. Scunterbunnet
    Ignored
    says:

    Wow, thanks Stu! This should make for hours of amusement, as we ponder the sundry applications of set theory to pudenda.

    Is an intersex person not woman and also not non-woman, and therefore ineligible for either list?

    Hypothetically, if fundy-murphily’s minder, Mx Izzard, who self-identifies as “a lesbian in a man’s body”, wants onto a list, to which should they apply?

    To be listed as woman, is biological femaleness PLUS cis-genderedness required? Or, is it good enough to just self-declare as a woman/non-woman? Will the Green Party be conducting a pants-down vetting regimen, for example?

    Should the viewpoint of traditional matriarchal societies be favoured, and maidens be categorised as non-women? If so, how will status and/or re-assignment be assured?

    … hey, actually, the Scottish Greens are starting to sound like a lot of fun. Who’d’ve thunk it! Where do I sign up? ;P

  52. Laverock
    Ignored
    says:

    Women have been thought of as non men for a long time and black people as non white etc. It’s worth thinking about what your ‘normal’ category is.

  53. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    We’re all Green really but this is Green green in Aberdeen

    https://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/news/awpr-decision-a-body-blow-to-north/

    The North-east of Scotland has been let down by today’s decision by the Court of Session to reject the objections of local residents to the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route, Greens argued. The party remains doubtful that the vastly expensive and counter-productive road will ever be built, given the financial impact it would have on both national and local government. – See more at: https://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/news/awpr-decision-a-body-blow-to-north/#sthash.XmQf9PCe.dpuf

    So here we are, this vastly expensive and counter-productive road is now being built, 40+ years late.

    Green objections like a huge legal block on the by-pass has bumped up construction costs by several hundred gazillion quid, all the economic boosters that come from these roads is long ago lost to the North East, EU’s oil capital Aberdeen staggers along with its Victorian infrastructure, all and any transport development is 40 years too late, the damage to the North East environment is near catastrophic with moronically shambolic lack of planning, meaningless Green blocks and on and on it goes.

    EU oil capital Aberdeen, the play thing for UKOK red, blue and green tories.

  54. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    We’re all Green really but this is Green green in Aberdeen

    https://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/news/awpr-decision-a-body-blow-to-north/

    The North-east of Scotland has been let down by today’s decision by the Court of Session to reject the objections of local residents to the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route, Greens argued. The party remains doubtful that the vastly expensive and counter-productive road will ever be built, given the financial impact it would have on both national and local government. – See more at: https://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/news/awpr-decision-a-body-blow-to-north/#sthash.XmQf9PCe.dpuf

    So here we are, this vastly expensive and counter-productive road is now being built, 40+ years late.

    Green objections like a huge legal block on the by-pass has bumped up construction costs by several hundred gazillion quid, all the economic boosters that come from these roads is long ago lost to the North East, EU’s oil capital Aberdeen staggers along with its Victorian infrastructure, all and any transport development is 40 years too late, the damage to the North East environment is near catastrophic with moronically shambolic lack of planning, meaningless Green blocks and on and on it goes.

    EU oil capital Aberdeen, the play thing for UKOK red, blue and green tories.

  55. Truth
    Ignored
    says:

    This is a disgrace. There are a great many non-women who identify as women.

    How dare they discriminate against them.

    Men are women too.

  56. Truth
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Bill Steele

    I believe he left when the SNP became pro NATO. Since regard that as being pro trident I suppose.

    From all this all I can conclude is that the greens are not to be trusted.

  57. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    Can someone explain to me why this site is suddenly having a go at the Greens? Have you finally become bored of Labour?

    its called light relief

  58. t42
    Ignored
    says:

    The greens want to ban rabbit hutches, yet strangely they want to retain the snake pit House of Lords?
    Someone must be eyeing a peerage.

  59. frankieboy
    Ignored
    says:

    Victor Meldrew will now say “I non-believe it”

  60. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    The BBC version of The Cheviot the Stag and the Black Black Oil is on YouTube

    From the logo, BBC Alba has shown it.

    http://tinyurl.com/og3pof6

  61. Kennedy
    Ignored
    says:

    Capella

    thanks

  62. Graeme Doig
    Ignored
    says:

    As an un-non-man i take offence at the anti-non-un PC attitude which would not take my needs seriously.

    Away for a lie down.

  63. One_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    Non women = Everything in the known universe – Woman.

    That’s a very wide net.

  64. David
    Ignored
    says:

    Surely under the Greens’ gender assignment rules, the play’s name is ‘The Cheviot the non-Doe and the Black Black Oil’.

  65. Truth
    Ignored
    says:

    Perhaps it would serve the greens well to ponder just why there are so many non-greens rather than greens elected.

  66. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    For a’ that, an’ a’ that,
    It’s coming yet for a’ that,
    That Non-woman to Non-woman, the world o’er,

    Nah, disnae quite go, does it?

  67. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-18115045

    Here we go, or went. Green legal block on AWPR in 2012, construct costs then, £400 million, after Green road block £800 million. Even with their 2012 mid Green legal action, costs went berserk

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-20121664

    Aberdeen bypass cost rises to £653m after delays.

    Fair enough this is the Pacific Quay lie machine but even so. Thanks a lot Green women and non women.

  68. ahundredthidiot
    Ignored
    says:

    The Greens will definitely be getting my non-vote

    The SNP can have the other two non-non-votes

  69. green_pedant
    Ignored
    says:

    It is to allow people who are transgender or who don’t identify 100% with either gender. Laughing at it is suggesting that the thousands of trans people in Scotland shouldn’t be allowed into politics.

  70. Brian
    Ignored
    says:

    I refuse to vote Green until they have a leader who is Dragonkin.

    I then won’t vote for the Greens because they have a leader who is a lunatic.

  71. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    @green_pedant
    But it still doesn’t answer where my ‘ a lady who has had a hysterectomy’ falls

  72. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    Truth says:
    31 August, 2015 at 1:28 pm
    @ Bill Steele
    I believe he left when the SNP became pro NATO. Since regard that as being pro trident I suppose…

    Actually the SNP had a grown up debate and basically decided not to be anti-NATO as a campaigning stance.

    Once independent, and we have member status, I’d expect that if NATO offers real protection, we’d stay in. If not we’d leave.

  73. David
    Ignored
    says:

    I think that some of the Green party candidates womentioned in their blog may need to re-gender their names.

    Andy Wightnon-woman
    Maggie (or Non-Pa-ggie) Chapette-non-woman
    Alinon-daughter Joanstone
    Peter Non-NicColl
    Non-Ma-trick Harvie
    Zara Kitnon-daughter
    Kirsten Ronon-gg – well, obviously ‘cos bb = Boy’s Brigade, she it is not the gg , Girl Guides.
    Joan Wilnon-daughter
    Denon-bra Storr
    Non-Ma-uline Hincheon
    Janon-daughter Rose
    Non-Roz Greer
    Alys Non-Dadford
    Elaine Morrinon-daughter
    Janet M-non-cow-ley
    Steve Non-vagina-non-daughter
    Jody Jamienon-daughter
    David Officer-non-gentleman
    YV Non-NicLellan
    Elaine Morrinon-daughter

    Whit a fankle!

  74. David Smith
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry Greens.
    There’s much about your party and its policies that I admire but this, I’m afraid, is a candidate for Zoomer Patrol.
    Wonder if my female (neutered) dug qualifies under the ‘non-woman’ ticket?

  75. green_pedant
    Ignored
    says:

    Saying that Non-Woman is the same as Man is like saying that Non-White is the same as Black. Unless you think Trans people don’t exist…

  76. Fred
    Ignored
    says:

    At the George Square demo, the Greens leader was introduced as “a bi-sexual man”. Does anyody give a monkeys?

  77. Hamish Kirk
    Ignored
    says:

    Another reason to stick with mainstream SNP, avoiding Greens, Sheridanistas, Foxites and Early Risers.

  78. green_pedant
    Ignored
    says:

    @handclapping
    You are confusing Gender, with Sex. Sex is unchangeable and biological while gender is a social construct. So if a woman chooses to get any type of operation her sex will stay the same. However gender is down to what one sees oneself as, it can change. So said women would be the same gender and sex, unless they wanted to change gender.

  79. Scunterbunnet
    Ignored
    says:

    “Laverock says:
    31 August, 2015 at 1:19 pm
    Women have been thought of as non men for a long time and black people as non white etc. It’s worth thinking about what your ‘normal’ category is.”

    Hi, Laverock. I’m sure most of us can appreciate your point. But “worth thinking about” isn’t a justification for arbitrarily forming a new ‘normal’ that explicitly makes one category the “other” (and in this case, limits their chances of becoming a democratically elected rep). “Woman” is not an intrinsically pejorative term, but “non-woman” might be. Quotas to redress historic discriminations and imbalances are fine – but how could a minority ethnic, disabled, transgender person from a deprived background (who happens to be ‘non-woman’) not be multiply alienated by this new binary?

    Someone’s just made a clumsy choice of words here. It’s slightly amusing, no real harm done. But it does confirm my impression that the Greens live in a utopian bubble. Surely having a “Women” list and a “General” one would be less impolitic?

  80. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    Fred says:
    31 August, 2015 at 2:17 pm
    At the George Square demo, the Greens leader was introduced as “a bi-sexual man”. Does anyody give a monkeys?

    Careful now, you’ll get accused of being anti monkey..

  81. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    Yep,
    …just the Greens trying to up the aunty…

  82. punklin
    Ignored
    says:

    Shouldn’t it be Andy Wightnonwoman and btw does he support Nonwomanchester United or Nonwomanchester City?

    Has he read Jane Austen’s Nonwomansefield Park? Has he seen The Road to Nonwomanderlay?

    I think we should be told before we give the Greens any sort of nonwomandate.

  83. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Leading Green non-woman opposition to Aberdeen’s by-pass is this dude/dudess

    http://news.stv.tv/north/194836-bypass-protestor-wiliam-walton-is-orchestrating-campaign-from-newcastle/

    Fair enough, we voted BetterTogether, who wants a bally great road through ones estate etc.

    Mr Walton went back to Newcastle and if you never been there, Newcastle’s road transport network is light years ahead of EU oil capital Aberdeen. In fact it’s unlikely Aberdeen will ever begin to catch up with English towns and cities like Newcastle, despite very similar population sizes. Such is UKOK unionism.

    Aberdonians will delighted to know that Newcastle continues to get heavy investment in its road network

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/major-roads-investment-in-the-north-east-and-yorkshire

    The A1(M) stops dead just north of Newcastle, why go any further, but it’s getting heavily modernised and their next all new by-pass is underway too. Vital stuff, buts it’s going to be great to see non woman Mr Walton and the Greens in action once again, fighting their huge legal battles to stop all this new road investment, in Newcastle.

    Meanwhile, the main bridge in and out of Aberdeen was consecrated by Bishop Elphinstone in the 16th Century, when Scotland was an actual country, proud Scot buts. Its still got the Bishops marks on too, lovely.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_of_Dee#/media/File:Bridge_of_Dee_Aberdeen.jpg

  84. Alan Mackintosh
    Ignored
    says:

    Green pedant, then why specify that some are women, and others are NOT women? Just list people by their names. Unless of course you are aiming for gender equality. But then that implies that women are a specific group and all others are non women. By trying to juggle the gender equality and /or LGBT or Androgenous or whatever, trying not to offend anybody, it just ends up being ridiculed.

    Everyone has a name, why not just use them?

  85. Adam Ramsay
    Ignored
    says:

    A couple of things

    1) I wrote the article on Bright Green that this screengrab comes from. I used the term non-men because the SGP constitution works such that half the places on zipped lists are for women, the other half are for people who identify as any other gender. We have some members who identify as neither men nor women, which is a phenomenon recognised by everyone from the NHS to Facebook (who have 56 gender options) – see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer. The term “non-men” is just the clumsy shorthand I used to indicate this.

    2) Someone pointed out that I’d said in error that John Finney had joined the Greens when the SNP switched to being pro-trident. I do apologise – I of course meant pro-NATO. As others have rightly said, the SNP has always been steadfastly anti-Trident, and the piece has now been corrected. Having been arrested at Faslane alongside SNP friends, I certainly didn’t mean to question their commitment to this cause.

  86. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    heedtracker says:

    31 August, 2015 at 1:59 pm

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-18115045

    Here we go, or went. Green legal block on AWPR in 2012, construct costs then, £400 million, after Green road block £800 million. Even with their 2012 mid Green legal action, costs went berserk

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-20121664

    Aberdeen bypass cost rises to £653m after delays.

    Fair enough this is the Pacific Quay lie machine but even so. Thanks a lot Green women and non women.

    For the life of me, I cannot understand why genuine green people (as opposed to NIMBYs) have such a big issue with bypasses. Are they completely unaware how much additional pollution is caused by grid-locked traffic? It is far more environmentally friendly to keep it flowing! You cannot undo traffic levels (at least not in the medium term).

    In Aberdeen (and shire) the Greens should be pressurising the councils, who do really daft things like build an airport terminal at the other side of the runway from the train station, and plan a new station at Kintore at the limited west side of the town, whilst at the same time restricting new developments to the east side. Duh!

  87. ErinT
    Ignored
    says:

    @green_pedant

    Thanks for this. The language is inclusive of people that are intersex or have a non-binary gender identity but in no way denigrates the identity of the male candidates.

    As a person that actually felt included and accepted by the language used by the Greens it is really sad to read some of the comments here today. Complete misunderstanding and belittling laced with good doses of harmful mockery.

  88. crazycat
    Ignored
    says:

    @ green_pedant

    Both your points are fair enough, but why are those who don’t identify with either gender (for instance) described as non-women? Aren’t they also non-men? Wanting to include them (quite rightly) doesn’t necessitate the particular choice of labels.

    The problem for me is not trying to expand the categories, but that one of them is labelled as the antithesis of the other, which could be interpreted as a value judgment.

    I do realize (as was pointed out above) that women have been regarded (and in places still are regarded) as non-men, and it is that othering that is the problem. A versus not-A implies that A is the important trait/identity and not-A is just everything/body else all lumped together.

  89. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    @green_pedant
    Its the non-married-woman-use of the English term woman which defines one of the generic men as the one with a womb as opposed to the one with the weapon that I object to. If you are going to create fancy divisions of men then create your own terms for your divisions and stop trying to horn in a sense that you are normal by mis, sorry non married woman, using “normal” terms.

  90. annie
    Ignored
    says:

    @Bill Steele – Both John Finney and Jean Urquhart left the SNP after the NATO debate when the party voted to adopt joining NATO after Independence. SNP have never been pro Trident.

  91. ErinT
    Ignored
    says:

    “The problem for me is not trying to expand the categories, but that one of them is labelled as the antithesis of the other, which could be interpreted as a value judgment.”

    That is because it is clearly stated that the Greens felt a woman would be necessary. Therefore all other genders would fall under the category of “non-women”.

    Alternatively, if the leader of the Scottish Greens was a woman and it was felt a male candidate was necessary, all other genders – be that non-binary, agender, bigender, female etc – would be classified as “non-men” which basically means the other candidates that do not meet the specifying criteria.

    This is just gender neutral language focused on inclusivity. That people are using this as an opportunity to mock vulnerable minorities is depressing.

  92. Dal Riata
    Ignored
    says:

    green-pedant says: “Laughing at it is suggesting that the thousands of trans people in Scotland shouldn’t be allowed into politics.”

    Yeah, yeah, it really, really, really does ‘suggest’ that… Oh, and; Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! ROFL!

  93. cirsium
    Ignored
    says:

    Why introduce categories? Surely all that is needed is a list of candidates?

  94. notallusenglishareeejits
    Ignored
    says:

    Non-dickless?

  95. John Young
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T A link was posted earlier showing the location of the Culzean Gas Field. I opened it and discovered this was east of Aberdeen but also discovered the associated gas pipeline lands it’s gas South of the border.

  96. ClanDonald
    Ignored
    says:

    The greens are upset at everyone laughing at them for trying to include people who identify as neither male nor female by giving them a non-female category.

    However, they don’t explain why lumping all non-gender specific people in with men is inclusive.

  97. Schrödinger's cat
    Ignored
    says:

    From now on I want to be called Loretta

  98. Graeme Doig
    Ignored
    says:

    ‘By trying to juggle the gender equality and /or LGBT or Androgenous or whatever, trying not to offend anybody, it just ends up being ridiculed.’

    Exactly Alan. That’s because it has all become a bit ridiculous.

    I’m all for equality but when you start getting hung up on someone’s sex or sexuality as a prerequisite for a job (not withstanding those exempt through carefully considered law) you are essentially indulging in inequality

    The whole thing has become mad. Apologies to ‘mad’ people who should only be assessed as ‘mad’ by two qualified individuals of no specific orientation or belief system other than that to which their qualification pertains.

    No apology for the tone of my comment as is my right. Everyone has them and i want one.

  99. Schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    Um women and…..those who are one chromosome short of a picnic?

  100. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    ErinT says:

    31 August, 2015 at 3:02 pm

    This is just gender neutral language focused on inclusivity. That people are using this as an opportunity to mock vulnerable minorities is depressing.

    Woa there! No one here, as far as I am aware, is mocking vulnerable minorities. Anyone who does is quickly dealt with. We may think the Green Party terminology used in this instance is daft, and I appreciate it is a sensitive subject, but please don’t jump to conclusions. Not guilty.

  101. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @Luigi

    I’m not a Green but my understanding is that bypasses increase traffic volume and eventually become congested requiring a bypass to the bypass. eg. the M25 cars crawling along nose to tail.

    The Green answer is public transport. Railways.

    Freight and passengers could return to rail as it did in pre Beeching days when Ernest Marples was Transport Minister (of Marples Ridgeway Motorway Construction Company.) and decimated the rail network.

    Motorway projects and bypasses can also provide property developers and some landowners, with an opportunity to get rid of the green belt and make a fortune on the instant rise in land values.

    Infrastructure in England is, of course, far more extensive than in Scotland. But they probably fund it as UK projects whereas our roads have to be funded from our block grant.

    This post will probably take ages as today I’ve joined the list of people who have to wait to see their posts appear.

  102. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Luigi says:
    31 August, 2015 at 2:45 pm
    heedtracker says:

    When one country runs another or says it wants to, this kind of generational planning dysfunctional catastrophe, is going to happen and keep on happening.

    Clearly policy makers in Whitehall see the North East of the Scotland region as a get in, get the money, get the fcuk out zone. Its how North Sea oil industry is run, its how the north east is run, its how its all sold by that giant fraud at Pacific Quay, or SLabour or the Tories or the Libs etc, all UKOK unionists.

    And then we have the Greens moving in to legally block investment in and around Aberdeen for decades not years, meanwhile investment in England keeps pumping away. Do we need to get into HS2 or stuff like the Trans Pennine, Leeds to Manchester thing?

    No doubt non woman Mr Walton is heading to the High Court in London as we speak, pumping millions in the silks bank accounts right the noo, just to stop the second Tyne tunnel and by-pass alone. Maybe.

  103. David
    Ignored
    says:

    The language used by the Greens in their article replaces old-fashioned, or ‘traditional’, male superiority with female superiority.

    This may be refreshing, but it is not a step forward. It is not equality. It is clumsy use of language, and I both expect and deserve better from an organisation that wants to gain political power.

    P.S. (Joke alert) If divisive categories are really needed by the Greens, they could take a leaf out of Facebook’s book, and go with 3 categories – “M”, “F”, and “It’s Complicated”.

  104. Scunterbunnet
    Ignored
    says:

    @ErinT, @Any-Green-members-who-are-reading

    “That is because it is clearly stated that the Greens felt a woman would be necessary. Therefore all other genders would fall under the category of “non-women”.”

    I’m still baffled, ErinT: I’m totally in favour of equality for all citizens regardless of sex/gender/orientation/race/ethnicity/status-of-any-other-kind. AND I support positive discrimination where it redresses existing inequality or imbalance.

    But how possibly is the term “non-woman” inclusive? I don’t think for one second that the Greens are deliberately trying to disenfranchise anybody, or making a value judgement that those identified as women are “better” than the rest of the population. It is a strange choice of words though: why not “rest-of-population”, or “other” or “general”? How is “woman” defined for the purposes of Green Party selection?

    Yes, some people are getting a rise out of the strange semantics, but there is a serious cause for concern too – watching from the outside.

  105. Bob Mack
    Ignored
    says:

    Non moman. Non man = Non-sense

  106. James Caithness
    Ignored
    says:

    Schrödinger’s cat says:
    31 August, 2015 at 3:20 pm
    From now on I want to be called Loretta

    Thought that was the name you liked every Friday?

  107. Schrödinger's cat
    Ignored
    says:

    What is really sad is that one of the top priority changes happening in holyrood after 2016 will be land reform

    Having Andy wightman in holyrood would be to the benefit of everyone in Scotland and the greens
    It is nuts that Scotland’s foremost land reform campaigner is second on the list

  108. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    The Swiss, for example, have an excellent, and cheap, public transport system. You can’t drive to Zermatt. You have to park miles down the valley and take the train. Then, in Zermatt, you can get a horse and carriage or a “milk float” type vehicle from the station to your hotel if necessary.

    They got fed up of EU lorries trundling through Switzerland on their way to Italy and the south. So they built a railway and made the lorries get on the railway to be whisked trough to the other side without the tonnes of pollution caused by lorries.

    The snow around the Matterhorn near Zermatt is melting. The Aletsch glacier is shrinking dramatically.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aletsch_Glacier

  109. DerekM
    Ignored
    says:

    well Greens dont say you were not warned if you stand against us in an election you will get no free ride this time,oh and you had better get your house in order and i mean squeaky clean cause we will be coming gunning for you and if you had not noticed we are particularly good at that.

    And dont blame the SNP if you choose to stand then you are our opposition and we will do what we have to for the sake of independence and if that means crushing you then so be it,would rather we didnt have to and your party could go on to learn some valuable experience in our councils but if you want to commit political suicide then who are we to stop you.

  110. Schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    Only on days of the week with a Y in the name James,

    Maybe if we start calling Andy wightman Loretta, he will rise to the top of the greens list?

  111. ErinT
    Ignored
    says:

    @Scunterbunnet

    But how possibly is the term “non-woman” inclusive? I don’t think for one second that the Greens are deliberately trying to disenfranchise anybody, or making a value judgement that those identified as women are “better” than the rest of the population. It is a strange choice of words though: why not “rest-of-population”, or “other” or “general”? How is “woman” defined for the purposes of Green Party selection?

    Thanks for the reply! I’m not actually a Green Party member but rather SNP. While this conversation hasn’t really been all that pleasant for someone in my position, at the very least this has highlighted that intersex and non-binary individuals do exist to people that otherwise may not have known so that is a positive.

    “Woman” in the Green party is probably how it is in the SNP – an individual that self-identifies as a “woman” (according to old emails this seems to be the case).

    Personally I would prefer the term “other” however the need to use “non-women” over “others” appears to be a quirk of the current Green party rules which state that at least 50% of candidates in winnable seats should be women (positive discrimination that I don’t necessarily agree with but that is beside the point). As a result, the other category must be the remaining candidates. For most political parties this would be men but since the Greens are trying to be non-binary and intersex inclusive (in a clumsy manner but it is at least something) the term that they seem to have ended up using is “non-women”. “non-women” does cover “men and non-binary and intersex and anything else” pretty well after all and shows a distinction from the “women” that are being positively discriminated (positively selected?).

    I really think it could have been worded better but the party is at least trying to be inclusive of groups of people that are often forgotten about or used for crude humour so I appreciate them accepting that there are people that don’t fall into the “man” or “woman” boxes and trying to accommodate them.

    For the record this is much better than the SNP who seem to allow absolutely every title under the sun aside from one that is gender neutral and only allow “male”, “female” or “prefer not to say” gender options for members.

  112. crazycat
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Erin T

    Ok; unfortunately, I’m not convinced they would do what you suggest if their leader were a woman – perhaps one day I will be proved wrong.

    (“Leader” in this instance means leader at Holyrood; they have co-convenors for the party as a whole, who are currently Patrick Harvie and Maggie Chapman. Until the latter becomes an MSP, Patrick is the “leader” in practical terms, and this thread is discussing election to Holyrood. If she is elected next year, presumably they will take it in turns. I’m assuming that he will also be elected.)

    There are 8 regional lists, and they have 4 headed by women, followed by alternation down the list, and 4 the other way round. Every time I have heard this mentioned by Green Party members that I know, they have talked about this in terms of “men” and “women”. This is the first occasion that I have seen the term “non-women” being used.

    I don’t want to be defined by what I’m not, so I wouldn’t be happy being called a “non-man”, or a “non-believer”, etc, even though all these are true. Is there really no other way of being inclusive?

  113. Alan Mackintosh
    Ignored
    says:

    ErinT, “That is because it is clearly stated that the Greens felt a woman would be necessary. Therefore all other genders would fall under the category of “non-women”.”

    Why is it necessary for it to be a woman? To balance Patrick Harvie’s presence? Surely in that case it should have been specifying a non-man? As I said they’ve made a rod for their own back by labelling like this. Call people by their names and ignore their gender. By highlighting the gender or not-gender of people in such a daft way leads to ridicule.

    In any case, I thought Patrick Harvie and Maggie Chapman were both co-conveners of the SGP?

  114. Iain More
    Ignored
    says:

    In the run up to the Holyrood Elections the Greens will be painted by the Brit Nat Press and Media as the best thing since the discovery of fire in an effort to split the pro Independence vote.

    After that election is out of the way the Greens will be back to being bad not as bad as the SNP but still bad. The Brit Nat Press and Media will of course in the run up to that election fail miserably to point out the anti Scottish actions of Caroline Lucas in voting with the anti Scottish Tories etc to water the down the already pathetic Scotland Bill.

    The above only adds to my disenchantment with the Greens since the Referendum.

  115. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    Capella says:

    31 August, 2015 at 3:33 pm

    @Luigi

    I’m not a Green but my understanding is that bypasses increase traffic volume and eventually become congested requiring a bypass to the bypass. eg. the M25 cars crawling along nose to tail.

    I’m aware of that rationale also, but sorry I don’t buy it – not for Scotland with so much land and a relatively low population density. As Heedtracker implied, we have a planning ideology designed for another country, which is far more congested and with a much higher population density. And as for “Green Belts” – what a joke – a terminology designed (again for another country) to prevent conurbations merging way back in the 1950s. Are people aware that the effective Green belt around Aberdeen is 50 miles all ways but east (North Sea)! How many fine green spaces within the city have been over-built in the name of maintaining a ridiculous green belt policy? Cities need space within to breathe – all Aberdeen council is obsessed with is their precious green belt (much to the NIMBY’s delight). I would rather see green spaces in the city than a useless green belt (agricultural/golf course desert) around it.

  116. Ali
    Ignored
    says:

    This perhaps only highlights an outdated view of gender as binary which the Greens have avoided

  117. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “But gender isn’t binary.

    I’m not familiar with the best forms of terminology but I do like to see recognition that the labels ‘Male’ and ‘Female’ do not fit everyone.”

    Gender and sex aren’t the same thing.

  118. Lollysmum
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Capella at 1.08pm
    Thanks for the link to The Cheviot, The Stag & Black,Black Oil. Just watched it & it was very moving which explains why it was never shown again. You only have to watch the faces in the audience to see that.

  119. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “There are more than 2 genders you know”

    There really aren’t.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

  120. Alan Mackintosh
    Ignored
    says:

    Cat, I agree Andy Wightman should definitely be higher on the list given the importance of land reform in the next parliament. Its bonkers that he hasnt been given higher prominence.

  121. ErinT
    Ignored
    says:

    ErinT, “That is because it is clearly stated that the Greens felt a woman would be necessary. Therefore all other genders would fall under the category of “non-women”.”

    Why is it necessary for it to be a woman? To balance Patrick Harvie’s presence? Surely in that case it should have been specifying a non-man? As I said they’ve made a rod for their own back by labelling like this. Call people by their names and ignore their gender. By highlighting the gender or not-gender of people in such a daft way leads to ridicule.

    Firstly, I don’t know why it is necessary for it to be a woman. I’m not a Green and I don’t particularly believe in positive discrimination as it is implemented by many political parties. For example, I think the idea of being able to have all women lists isn’t helpful – no one gender should have that representation. And indeed, you point out one flaw of the system where a gender minority is classified within the gender group that is seen as being too numerous for true representation.

    I think referring to people by name is a nice idea though it doesn’t work in practice since names are predominantly gendered and at least making a reference to there being more than two genders is an awful lot more inclusive than many other political parties.

  122. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “I used the term non-men because the SGP constitution works such that half the places on zipped lists are for women”

    Just out of curiosity – how are you defining “woman” for the purposes of that categorisation?

  123. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    Shall I tell you about my life?

    They say I’m a non-woman of the world.

  124. Betsy
    Ignored
    says:

    So using this non-women tag we’d be lumping a traditionally disadvantaged group (f to m trans) in with a traditionally over represented group (men). On what planet is that progressive?

  125. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    Now I am totally confused. In my simple world view there is sex:
    women = 45:X 46:XX etc, men = 46:XY ditto
    and gender: /* flippancy*/
    likes pink = female, likes Top Gear = male. /* end flippancy*/

    Surely the Green agenda is to right the historic wrong that has been done to those of the female gender. It is called feminism after all not womanism. So I think they have defined those that they want to prioritise wrongly as women when what they should have called for was feminine preference and and made their binary division female and non-female.

    Or am I a bitch barking up the wrong tree?
    or even just barking 🙂

  126. green_pedant
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Wightman is 2nd on the lothian list for those who want to know.

  127. green_pedant
    Ignored
    says:

    This seems to be much ado about nothing, this is a blog post about who COULD stand for election internally for the Green lists. Interesting how this has been trawled up from more than six months ago…

  128. t42
    Ignored
    says:

    “Of course, both women ran for the nomination back in 2011, so in a sense, this is a re-run of that.”

    nothing to see here..move along please..

  129. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Luigi
    Wikipedia says the concept of Green Belts goes back to biblical times, long before 1950s UK (and the Green Party):

    “The Old Testament outlines a proposal for a green belt around the Levite towns in the Land of Israel Moses Maimonides expounded that the greenbelt plan from the Old Testament referred to all towns in ancient Israel. In the 7th century, Muhammad established a green belt around Medina. He did this by prohibiting any further removal of trees in a 12-mile long strip around the city.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_belt#History

    I like trees and fields. But the planning process is a devolved issue and the Scottish government could change it if there is political support for that. But if it is changed just to enrich property developers then I would vote against.

    BTW the Swiss have a federal system. Translated to Scotland, that would mean if the canton of Argyll and Bute didn’t want Faslane in their area, they would hold a referendum and the result would be implemented. Socialist peaceniks!
    https://archive.is/h3IAv

  130. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    @green_pedant
    Interesting how this has been trawled up from more than six months ago…
    ??? Its the silly season Bank Holiday for heavens sake

  131. Midgehunter
    Ignored
    says:

    In every woman is a man. 😉

  132. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Lollysmum
    Brilliant isn’t it (Cheviot the Stag and the Black Black Oil). I went to see it live when it first toured and Bill Paterson was a fresh faced young(ish) actor!

    I was at an Andy Wightman talk in Aberdeen a couple of years ago and someone in the audience mentioned it was on youtube.

  133. ahundredthidiot
    Ignored
    says:

    Life of Brian here

    As a man…..I reserve the right to have a baby

    That would be the Greens then

  134. Lollysmum
    Ignored
    says:

    Capella
    Yes you’re right-everyone should watch it. 1hr 29mins well spent. I can’t understand those people who don’t want to know their own history. If they did then independence would be a walkover 😉

    Highly recommended by this English woman 🙂

  135. bugsbunny
    Ignored
    says:

    If Jeremy Corbyn ever becomes Prime Minister? (I jest of course), maybe he can introduce women only ATM’s, so us mere males, can get out our money and check our balances even when we are 10th in a male line, as this would be quicker than being stuck behind a single lady. lol.

    Stephen.

  136. Graeme Doig
    Ignored
    says:

    OT

    Oil very good today. Energy, jobs, income!

  137. Taranaich
    Ignored
    says:

    I think the main reason this seems so strange is because everyone in the “other” section is a man, which makes “non-woman” seem like a synonym for “man” rather than, well, anything other than woman. Of course, I don’t know of Messrs McColl & Wightman identify as male, so there it is.

    @shrodingers cat: Can someone explain to me why this site is suddenly having a go at the Greens?

    I like the Greens and campaigned with them during the referendum, but to be frank, this “having a go” is hardly a one-way street. Patrick Harvie said he’d refuse to share a platform with the Reverend. Ross Greer was quite vocal in his objections to local Yes campaigners handing out the fliers with Wings’ address, and I wager is a significant factor in Yes HQ’s embargo on the Wee Blue Book. And they aren’t the only high-profile greens to take issue with the site and Rev in the past.

    @Adam Ramsay: 1) I wrote the article on Bright Green that this screengrab comes from. I used the term non-men because the SGP constitution works such that half the places on zipped lists are for women, the other half are for people who identify as any other gender. We have some members who identify as neither men nor women, which is a phenomenon recognised by everyone from the NHS to Facebook (who have 56 gender options) – see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer. The term “non-men” is just the clumsy shorthand I used to indicate this.

    Good of you to come onto the site to explain, Adam.

    And for those wondering, I believe these are the 56 Facebook gender options:

    Agender
    Androgyne
    Androgynous
    Bigender
    Cis
    Cisgender
    Cis Female
    Cis Male
    Cis Man
    Cis Woman
    Cisgender Female
    Cisgender Male
    Cisgender Man
    Cisgender Woman
    Female to Male
    FTM
    Gender Fluid
    Gender Nonconforming
    Gender Questioning
    Gender Variant
    Genderqueer
    Intersex
    Male to Female
    MTF
    Neither
    Neutrois
    Non-binary
    Other
    Pangender
    Trans
    Trans*
    Trans Female
    Trans* Female
    Trans Male
    Trans* Male
    Trans Man
    Trans* Man
    Trans Person
    Trans* Person
    Trans Woman
    Trans* Woman
    Transfeminine
    Transgender
    Transgender Female
    Transgender Male
    Transgender Man
    Transgender Person
    Transgender Woman
    Transmasculine
    Transsexual
    Transsexual Female
    Transsexual Male
    Transsexual Man
    Transsexual Person
    Transsexual Woman
    Two-Spirit

    #The More You Know…

  138. bugsbunny
    Ignored
    says:

    How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb? Ten. One to change it, and another Nine to write a Thesis on the Submissive Role of the Socket.

    Stephen.

  139. Scunterbunnet
    Ignored
    says:

    @ErinT, thanks for your perfectly sensible reply at 4:05pm.

    If the Greens are doing what you say, I have no objection, except to the slightly awkward wording.

    And as somebody for whom crude humour is the default setting, apologies if anything I typed earlier offended.

  140. Famous15
    Ignored
    says:

    I went off the idea of green belt a number of years ago after getting a gift of a non green helicopter trip around Edinburgh. From the sky it was clear that there was more greenery in the city than in the countryside.

    In West Edinburgh oil seed rape fields in the “green” belt gives you a little cough but for full blown pollution of your fresh air you cannot get better than the foul smelling composting of the contents of garden waste at the old dump site at Turnhouse. The smell travels beyond Drumbrae to Corstorphine Road. Those who complain about sewage smell at Seafield should try whiffing the air in East Craigs!

    The bottom line (sic) is that Green is not always green.

  141. bugsbunny
    Ignored
    says:

    Midgehunter,

    In Brighton, the saying would be “In every tenth man is another man”. lol. Or in the Tory Party it would be, “In every pre pubescent London Orphan boy, is a Tory MP”.

    Stephen.

  142. Schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    This discussion is a light relief from the news over the last few days which, to put it bluntly, is all bad, so thanks for that rev

    This discussion is language constricted
    Eg, he she or it, in French it is he she or he, il, covers both
    But gender really means type, not sex, in English, the idea that inanimate objects can have a gender seems odd, eg le or la chaise, German agrees which is why nouns are masculine feminine and neuter. Bantu languages regard gender as type with 7 or 8 genders, covering inanimate objects like rocks, stones etc, animals, people etc, the prefix for humans is Ki, which is why Kenyans are usually called Kiptanui, kipkano and the language they speak is Ki Swahili, in some Bantu tribes, the women have their own female language.
    Our ideas are constrained by language, it is how we communicate. In English we still sometimes refer to ships and cars as she, but we are limited to he she or it in our nominative pronouns. Transgender people are a modern phenomena, how do we describe them? It sounds too impersonal and insulting, How do we deal with them, do they need separate toilets? Working on an oil rig, this is a bigger issue than you may imagine due to the lack of space and bed rooms, what sort of sign would you hang on the door, on the directions board in an airport.?
    Just because you can’t think of another gender doesn’t mean there isn’t one. You are merely constrained by your. Language
    Language isn’t fixed in stone, like Rosetta, it changes and evolves to cover new ideas, eg, chairperson, Harriet harperson, etc
    It’s also our source of humour and this Non women attempt by the greens, if nothing more has put a smile on my face 🙂
    Btw, did I tell you that from now on I want to be called Loretta 🙂

  143. NN
    Ignored
    says:

    Tokenism, empty populist and attention grabbing noise, identity politics and setting themselves up to be a tool of the usual elite or simply self serving actions and ladder climbing under a useful banner. No real actions and nothing that’s actually helping pepole’s quality of life while the majority will increasingly suffer.

    As long as this is the state of politics and distractions in the UK then real change will never happen and people will increasingly suffer while these people and anyone tangled up with them chase their tails.

    I sometimes wonder if the Greens have some sort of Trojan staff members high up as every time they take a turn for the better and start to look electable they then start poisoning the well or start adding the crazy.

  144. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t think all this friendly banter about the Greens is going down well with the actual Greens

    They seem to be getting a bit “Browned Off” with it all and some of it has been a bit “Blue”

    To be “Fair” though I don’t think anyone has any “Black” thoughts towards the Greens and they have got lots of new members now so they won’t be in the “Red” financially

    OK OK I’ll stop, I’m sorry and I apologise to all non specifically named genders of all non specified colourings and indeed groupings of humans and non humans alike

    Worldwide (please it’s only fun)

    If they can put my Nicola in a tartan bikini sitting on a wrecking ball then we’re all fair game

  145. Hugh Kirk
    Ignored
    says:

    Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls…., Sorry I should have said Non women and non men. non girls and non boys…. girls…, I think!

  146. Schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    My wife, a geneticist, assures me that the default of humans is xx. I’m not sure how that works but she says this is accepted dogma

    The Y in the xy of males is nothing more than a stunted, malformed X, basically an X with one of its arms broken off giving rise to bizarre looking mutants 🙂

    You could argue that she would say that anyway, just as I could argue that the Y chromosome is an evolutionary step forward 🙂

  147. muttley79
    Ignored
    says:

    Just back from seeing Alex Salmond and Paul Mason at the Embra Book Festival. Paul Mason was very good, Alex was a good host. I thought Eck said that he was not for a light touch on banking regulation, which I don’t think was the case. He still seems to have a blind spot on that and monetary policy.

    There was the obligatory unionist asking/stating about how Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid! Apparently the massive oil revenues were a lie, and we could not survive without the wealth concentration in the south east of England (something along those lines anyway)! Seriously where on earth do we get these people from? They would rather put up with the Tories ripping apart society than Scotland running its own affairs. Alex very politely verbally slapped her down.

  148. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    I once read Red Cloud’s book in which he describes male members of the tribe who liked to dress as women and hang around with the squaws.They were called “winkties” I recall. Was considered perfectly natural to Plains Indians (I expect that is no the PC term for them either).

    http://www.biography.com/people/red-cloud-9453402#red-clouds-war

  149. ErinT
    Ignored
    says:

    @Scunterbunnet

    “And as somebody for whom crude humour is the default setting, apologies if anything I typed earlier offended.”

    That is appreciated though not needed seeing as I think your earlier post got to the stage where it was so ridiculous it was clearly satirical!

    The wording is indeed awkward in the SGP’s stuff, but it is a start. Ideally we wouldn’t have to make these distinctions and people would be people but alas.

    @Schrodingers cat

    The language aspect is rather interesting and just shows how things can vary so much between cultures. I’m reminded of how the inuit apparently have 36 words for snow.

    Transgender people are a modern phenomena, how do we describe them? It sounds too impersonal and insulting, How do we deal with them, do they need separate toilets? Working on an oil rig, this is a bigger issue than you may imagine due to the lack of space and bed rooms, what sort of sign would you hang on the door, on the directions board in an airport.?

    Not so. Transgender people have been around for thousands of years if you include the Hijra culture. Native Americans had individuals that were seen as being multigendered as well (two-spirited is normally used I think).

    Generally, if you wish to describe a trans person you would use pronouns for the gender that is being presented / identified as unless the person is neither male nor female in which case you can use “they”. Separate toilets would only be needed for people that are neither male nor female – the disabled typically gets used as a gender neutral toilet anyway so no problem there.

    Hope that helps Loretta! Good luck with your new chosen identity! :p

  150. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “Andy Wightman is 2nd on the lothian list for those who want to know.”

    But surprise new late entry Mandy Wightman’s gone straight to the top.

  151. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “Interesting how this has been trawled up from more than six months ago…”

    It wasn’t “trawled up”. I was having a discussion with someone this morning about my tweet regarding smaller parties contesting constituency seats. The page came up while I was trying to find out if the Greens were running in any other than Patrick Harvie’s.

  152. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “And for those wondering, I believe these are the 56 Facebook gender options:”

    Okay, I more or less follow other than the asterisks. What are those?

  153. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh, and what’s the difference between “Man” and “Male”?

  154. Arabs for Independence
    Ignored
    says:

    Non man Wisdom

    Mrs Grimsdaaaaale

  155. Gordon
    Ignored
    says:

    Women and “potential rapists” I once heard in a debate in my student days.

  156. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    They could have had; women, everybody else.

  157. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    Apologies. Not Red Cloud. The writer was Lame Deer – Seeker of Visions. Great book.

    http://www.amazon.com/Lame-Seeker-Visions-Enriched-Classics/dp/0671888021

  158. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    My head hurts. Can we no just have Female, Male and Other? Simples.

    Apologies, this may already have been covered in the discussion, but life is too short, IMO. A better gender balance, though essential if we want to achieve a sustainable society, is not my first priority.

    Then again, you could see institutionalising gender equality as a relatively cost neutral policy goal and low hanging fruit can be difficult to ignore.

  159. David
    Ignored
    says:

    The French have got a word for it…
    …but it’s all Greek to me.

    Or in the immortal words of Al Murray’s the Pub Landlord, “Never confused!”

  160. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    Apologies again!
    The UK link is here and you can “Look Inside” too:
    http://tinyurl.com/oc9bz25

  161. ErinT
    Ignored
    says:

    “Okay, I more or less follow other than the asterisks. What are those?”

    Wildcard symbols, like in unix for example.

    In this case meaning trans(and everything else). Could be used as someone that wants to explicitly identify as both transgender and transsexual.

  162. David
    Ignored
    says:

    Non-white is the new black.
    (If that’s alright with everyone)

  163. Alan Mackintosh
    Ignored
    says:

    Whats a zipped list btw? Saw it mentioned in Adam Ramsays post up the top and then mentioned a couple of times.

    Yay for Mandy Wightman, Go Lothians!

  164. Adam Ramsay
    Ignored
    says:

    Just to clarify a few more things that have come up here:

    – @Rev Stu: you asked how this is decided. I think it’s self identified – ie, people decide if they are a woman. No one goes around checking.

    – In many ways, the whole thing is a bit of a mess, and I think there are proposals to fix it at the conference this year (which, annoyingly, is too late for the 2016 elections). The party constitution says that 50% of candidates in winnable seats have to be women, and 40% of candidates overall have to be women.

    – In order to implement this requirement, the candidates were split into two groups: those who say they are female on one side, those who think of themselves as anything else on the other. In practice, almost all of those people were men. But if anyone who identifies with any of the other labels listed above (or any other) stood, they would find themselves categorised in the latter group. As such, I called it “not women”. Perhaps I should have said “men, genderqueer, intersex people and everyone else who isn’t a woman”. I chose “not women” because that seemed the quickest way to describe this group. I don’t know if anyone who isn’t a man either was in this group, but if they were, I didn’t want to exclude them.

    – On the question of *whether* there are more than two genders, here’s how I see it. I understand that there are different views, and I’m afraid I am not going to spend my evening debating about them:

    “Sex” describes your biology. There are men (people with XY chromosomes) women (people with XX chromosomes) and much less common, intersex people, whose chromosomal make up is more complex, and, often, who have different genetalia from both men and women. See more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

    Then there’s gender, which is socially constructed (like nationality, say). This is all the stuff which isn’t intrinsic to biology, but stems from the way we organise society, from cultural norms, etc. People identify as having a whole range of different genders (a phenomenon which exists across many cultures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28South_Asia%29).

    Whichever we are talking about, there are some people who don’t neatly fit into either box “men” or “women”. The SGP selection system, essentially by mistake, includes these people alongside men. And so, rather crudely, I just gave this group the title “not women”.

    I hope that makes sense.

  165. Schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    Erin
    You are of course correct, transgender people have been around for thousands of years, more importantly, in some parts of the world different levels of gender are and always have been more excepted, eg, Tahiti, in many cases they raise children as per the gender they want rather than that which nature gave them. Folks think this is perfectly acceptable and talk about it quite freely.
    Point I was making is that our language is constrained, the stiff upper lip attitude stopped us from complaining about the crap train service for 100 years
    Is it any surprise that when we talk about such things as transgender issues in 21st century Scotland we lack the vocabulary?
    The revs article above illustrates the, homourous, pigs ear we make of such issues.
    If you were not an English speaker, reading this, you might struggle to follow the comments?
    Ps I have box under my bed Erin, just in case 🙂

  166. ErinT
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh, and what’s the difference between “Man” and “Male”?

    The option of trans man and trans male are probably given just to cover all bases. The only significant difference that comes to mind would be someone that doesn’t undergo medical treatment might identify as trans male more than trans man.

    The term trans masculine is better than trans male in this scenario though.

  167. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry, I see the problem in my earlier suggestion. It would need to be Female, Male, Other and Other Other.

    I’ll get my coat.

  168. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    There’s such a time lapse between posting that I’ve no idea if my previous comment has appeared. But Wikipedia has a brief description of “winkte” in Lakota culture. Translates as”wantsto be like a woman”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winkte

  169. stitch
    Ignored
    says:

    Why do our children have to go hungry and they have found 5 million pounds to spend on trident pens and food banks sprout up everywhere, next they will bring back the workhouses.

  170. frogesque
    Ignored
    says:

    Regarding gender balance lists, positive discrimination, and, and well just about anything else. And this as much directed to the SNP as well as the SGP.

    Will whoever is chosen be any damned good? It is all that matters. End of.

  171. Schrodengers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    At bugs
    How many rise supporters does it take to change a lightbulb
    Answer, none at all, enlightenment is the inevitable emergent property of the never ending revolution of the people’s republic of Scotland, 🙂

  172. Schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    From where I am standing, on a drilling rig in the artic, answers on a postcard only
    Um, the ice is a bit thin around here, 🙁
    How many men does it take to wash a pile of dishes?

  173. Alan Mackintosh
    Ignored
    says:

    Thanks for your response Adam, and for coming here to discuss. I appreciate that you are not the architect of this and were only writing about it (my presumption). I’m curious though why it was felt that women/female had to be a distinct category on its own with everything else in the other group. That, in its own way, is as exclusive as having it the other way round with there being “Men or non-men”

    My criticism is not having a go at the Greens, more about the knots which people can get into trying to be PC to the nth degree, which as you agreed was a bit of a mess. Some common sense is required without offense being taken or even sought for.

  174. Scunterbunnet
    Ignored
    says:

    Thanks to Adam Ramsay, for clearing up the intent of the original Green communique.

    To avoid confusion, I propose a new clause in the future constitution of Scotland: that every citizen should fall under a single gender for legal purposes. We will borrow grammatical gender II of the Dyirbal language for this, which applies to “women, water, fire, violence, and exceptional animals”… that should easily cover everybody north of Gretna. 😉

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyirbal_language#Grammar

  175. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Hard core tory Press and Journal’s usual awful unionist garbage today but they have UKOK wide exclusive they say with Donald Trump, who forbids Scotland having another ref for 50 years.

    Trump says, he cant work out why unionists haven’t taken action to stop any referendum for 50 years, it should have been part of the deal, vote NO and that’s it all over.

    “I won battle over golf links-now for the Whitehouse” is toryboy grovellers of the P&J headline but that bunch fumble a bit when it comes to Trump golf at Balmedie. From Trump loves Salmond shrieks red and blue toryboys last year, to P&J grovellers say it turned “sour” with Salmond. It was an odd scrap though, Greens fighting to stop Trump and all exploited by ferocious get Salmond Project Fearing via BBC.

    How bad could another far right US President be, fighting alongside red and blue tory UKOK?

  176. Paula Rose
    Ignored
    says:

    On a subject that has been raised on this thread-

    Should the Green party candidates be questioned about their independence stance.

    I don’t think so, the Greens need to convince voters from avowedly unionist parties, this would not be helped by being for independence rather than for their policies. It would be better for them to concentrate on what is best for Scotland with the devolved set-up that exists at present.

  177. Fearchar
    Ignored
    says:

    Those with a Y chromosome, perhaps?

  178. Dinnatouch
    Ignored
    says:

    Scanning down the comments, I’ve got to say that I’m getting fed up with people defending this lunacy an the basis that simply putting Women and Men would be discriminating against transgenders. Well why the hell discriminate between Women and Non-women then? Why not just list the candidates names and ignore their bloody sex?

  179. Marco McGinty
    Ignored
    says:

    @Amber Heath
    “There are more than 2 genders you know. Might not be the most delicate phrasing but it is the most inclusive. The Greens unrepetant stance on practical gender, sexual and racial equality is something to be admired not mocked.”

    @green_pedant
    “It is to allow people who are transgender or who don’t identify 100% with either gender. Laughing at it is suggesting that the thousands of trans people in Scotland shouldn’t be allowed into politics.”

    @Adam Ramsay
    “I used the term non-men because the SGP constitution works such that half the places on zipped lists are for women, the other half are for people who identify as any other gender. We have some members who identify as neither men nor women, which is a phenomenon recognised by everyone from the NHS to Facebook.”

    First things first – I don’t like discrimination of any kind, much preferring the idea that equality should be a prerequisite of society, but just as equally, I do not like this idea of gender balance that seems to have permeated into modern thinking. I firmly believe that the most qualified person for any given job or position, should be the first choice, and gender balance should not come into it. So if that means that a company employs 85% of women/men/transgender/etc because of theor exceptional talent and they are simply the best for a particular job, then so be it. That is the way it should be.

    Now onto my comment on the Scottish Green Party’s take on gender balance, which does seem to be somewhat contradictory. If we take the quote from the Bright Green webpage “Greens also have a system of gender balance, which means that half of the candidates in winnable seats have to be women.”, then that in itself is a major contradiction, and it is completely at odds with what the Greens are trying to achieve.

    Very similar statements can be found amongst other Scottish Green Party publications, so it can’t be excused as an editorial error.

    So, the Scottish Greens idea of gender balance is to have 50% women, with the remaining 50% comprised of men and other non-women, which defeats their very purpose of trying to achieve a gender balance in their selection process in the first place. Surely, if there was to be a gender balance, men and women would have the same percentage, which in this case would have to be below 50%?

    The idea of gender balance, is utter stupidity in the extreme, and I hope my comment has somehow shown this.

    This reminds me of the political correctness nonsense that was cast upon the Wimbledon tennis tournament a few years ago, with campaigners demanding financial equality for the female tennis players. Of course, there is nothing wrong with that, but the issue did seem to ignore the fact that the men played far more tennis for their prize money.

    What should have happened was that the prize money for the women’s championship was increased to equal that of the men’s, but also seeing an increase in the length of the women’s matches, or a decrease in the length of the men’s matches, but what happened was an increase in the women’s prize money, but all match lengths stayed as they were.

    In doing so, they perhaps created an even greater imbalance in terms of equality than anything that had went before.

  180. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Paula Rose
    Perhaps but I’m afraid I have fallen under the influence of an evil cult. All things flow from independence. Ohmmmmm, ohmmmmm.

  181. Paul
    Ignored
    says:

    OT, but suitably late, can I share this here?

    https://thescotsperspective.wordpress.com/2015/08/31/fear-and-loathing-at-the-buroo/

    Cheers 🙂

  182. vronsky
    Ignored
    says:

    Some years ago I was walking in Europe, fell in with a bunch of women. They decided to have a girls’ night out but hadn’t the heart not to invite me, so for the evening (they told me) I was promoted to ‘girl’. I think that’s a slightly higher rank than ‘non-man’ but I’m not sure.

  183. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    vronsky
    Hey, you were “cock*-in-the-basket” though, which can be fun. 😉

    * Non-female chicken.

  184. Kennedy
    Ignored
    says:

    Kermit says “it’s not easy being green”

    I now know what he meant.

    He was a he was he?

  185. NN
    Ignored
    says:

    Ironically, by taking the tome to create and phrase it as “women and non-women” they’re making it even more insulting to all the “non-women”, who are apparently all scraped into one big bin together. Transgender women, etc. all to be tossed aside as not “real women” or not at that level and so classed with “non-women” it seems.

    It’s a total foot in mouth situation and entirely self inflicted. Serves them right for trying to score cheap points and not even having the brains to follow it through.

    The Greens make themselves unelectable.

  186. Murray McCallum
    Ignored
    says:

    I find it worrying that Scottish Greens on twitter seem morally outraged that others do not find their simplistic categorization of (i) woman and (ii) non-woman as socially profound.

    They appear to be branding people mocking (or questioning) their linguistic style as “non progressive”.

  187. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “Perhaps I should have said “men, genderqueer, intersex people and everyone else who isn’t a woman”. I chose “not women” because that seemed the quickest way to describe this group”

    Well, given that both of the people listed happened to be – as far as I know – plain and straightforward men, “men” might have been quicker still. Had either of them been genderqueer, whatever the heck THAT is, then you could have looked for a more generic term.

  188. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m beginning to think I’ve led too sheltered a life after reading this thread.

    Feel like I need to get out there and get me some of this action.

  189. Graeme Doig
    Ignored
    says:

    “They appear to be branding people mocking (or questioning) their linguistic style as “non progressive”.”

    “Non progressive” am i. Such branding of my kind ill behoves a party which aspires to have equality credentials.

    What a load of non-female pig wash!

    I’m off before i get flung oot.

  190. Taranaich
    Ignored
    says:

    @Rev: Okay, I more or less follow other than the asterisks. What are those?

    Adding an asterisk to “trans” makes it an umbrella term that includes all non-cisgender identities such as third gender, two-spirit, transgender, transvestite, transsexual, genderfluid, agender, non-binary, genderless, trans woman, trans man, genderfuck(apparently a thing), bigender, and genderless.

    I got this from here, which I’m assuming is correct:

    http://guardianlv.com/2014/02/all-56-of-facebooks-new-gender-identities-defined/

  191. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    But the whole thing is based on a false premise.

    We have seen what all male leaderships can do from Hitler, Himmler and Goebels to Tony lets make war cos I promised George in the locker room. The thinking is we need more of the qualities commonly associated with women, such as empathy, discussion and consensus building, i.e. feminine qualities rather than sex-linked attributes.

    If you make the restriction on sex, women only, all that happens is you get the womanly equvalent of Clarkson standing and we get the Thatchers, Mays, Harmans and Balls, who do not seem to have toned down the macho culture of Government in the slightest.

    The premise that women per se will improve governance is flawed. It is notable that the Labour candidate who most exhibits those feminine qualities we want to see in Government is male, Jeremy Corbyn.

  192. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    Further to my post at 9.28

    I’ll take anything that’s going,but the idea of genderfuck has got my juices flowing 🙂

  193. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    testing testing testing

  194. Croompenstein
    Ignored
    says:

    Where do ordinary mothers fit in ?

  195. Laverock
    Ignored
    says:

    Scunterbunnet@2.23

    Thanks for the reply. The point that I was trying to make was made more eloquently later by crazy cat.

    ‘ women have been regarded (and in places still are regarded) as non-men, and it is that othering that is the problem. A versus not-A implies that A is the important trait/identity and not-A is just everything/body else all lumped together.’

    I think a lot of scottish people understand how it can make you feel alienated , in relation to being ‘non English’ in the uk, and therefore thought of as a non normal variation. Anyone?

  196. Nation Libre
    Ignored
    says:

    Shouldn’t the women’s list have been non-men then? Why do the women get a group on their own and everyone else in together

    Can a man consider himself a woman to get on the women’s list?

    I’m confused

    Best Regards

    Non-Mrs D

  197. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    I have concluded that you can take this equality and diversity stuff a wee bit too far. People is people.

  198. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    Heedtracker

    True,remember Blair’s babes were all enthusiastic Iraq war crime cheerleaders.

    My own experience of female clients in my business is that they tend to be more xenophobic,warmongering,and totally heartless regards ‘migrants’even than males.

    I am frequently dismayed when I hear well educated ostensibly civilized women(young and old) spouting their bloodthirsty Imperialist loose talk.

    One older lady 2 weeks ago said we (Allies) should have dropped a third atomic bomb on Japan.

    Not sure if this is an overcompensation to be tough syndrome or what,but it doesn’t fit in with what female traits are purported to be.

  199. Scott Weir
    Ignored
    says:

    I think that the candidates should be introduced as people. It does not matter if they are male or female.

    Everyone is human, everyone is made from the same flesh and blood.

    Talent, not what sexual oriantation or gender type, should determine the candidate, and that goes for all organisations and all parties in Scotland and the rest of the world.

  200. Clootie
    Ignored
    says:

    I obviously lead a sheltered life!

    I find the whole “label” debate boring. It does nothing to get rid of Foodbanks, welfare sanctions, nuclear weapons etc etc

  201. Fred
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Capella, that would be Peggy Sioux & Pawnee Mary of Argyle.

    Ah’ll get ma Ghost Shirt!

  202. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    Perhaps ‘non women’ is a sound description for the likes of Alistair Carmichael ?

    Never a ‘man’ in a hundred years, and would be disrespectful to women to call him a big girl’s blouse…so this compromise was found to fit ?

    What now happens to the word ’emasculated’ ?

  203. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Nah, You’ve gone too far now, as they say in the pub

    This should only have been a twenty minute giggle

    As the great Johann Lamont once said “I’m Astonished” and turn our attention to some real unfortunate people… The Labour Party…. Ta Da

  204. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    “A lot of girls go out with me just to further their careers… damn anthropologists.” – Emo Philips 🙂

  205. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Here’s a coherent argument

    Admiral Lord West says on Radio Scotland this morning and I quote “Nobody ever dropped the bomb on a country that has the bomb”

    And on that note feeling satisfied with themselves the BBC reporter said “Well that’s all we have time for”

    The BBC always professional

  206. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Non of this Non of that and Non of the ither either, the Rev wont like it , not on this site .

  207. Alan Mackintosh
    Ignored
    says:

    Aye, Dr Jim, and they were playing the card of it having kept the peace since WW2. I did text John Beattie the following, but it didnt get read out. The only year the British armed forces were not involved in a conflict somewhere was 1968. All the major powers were involved in proxy wars, whether it was South America, the Middle East or Asia. Funding, advisors or troops on the ground. Some of it was open and some carried out in secret like the Claret rules operations. From Indonesia, Malaya, Oman, Aden, Korea, Vietnam, etc.

  208. Tam Jardine
    Ignored
    says:

    Holy shit – this is still a discussion? On a day that Osborne announce a half billion quid upgrade of nuclear weapons facilities at faslane whilst simultaneously the Culzean is given go ahead. On the good news for the north sea, Osborne asserts:

    “Despite challenging times, this government has backed the oil and gas industry at every turn, introducing a vital package of support to help it to protect and create jobs. Despite its claims, the Scottish government would have struggled to deliver such support alone – its own numbers showed that due to the current oil price an independent Scotland would have faced a £20bn black hole in its public finances over the first three years.”

    Support for the industry means taking less taxation. It’s not an enormous leap to envisage an independent Scotland, unencumbered by ludicrous levels of imperial war machine spending would be able to ‘support’ the oil industry no bother at all. And the revenues would clearly have a bigger positive impact in our wonderful, relatively sparsely populated Scotland.

    Osborne pushes on with the son of trident – we should have a national strike against trident. Everyone who is against it should down tools and assemble in our cities and March against renewal.

  209. David
    Ignored
    says:

    Respect to the Greens’ Adam Ramsay, on here, and Gary Dunion, on Twitter, for explaining the thinking behind the article, and not being totally po-paced.

    It would benefit the Greens if more of their online people were open, and able to admit that they can get things wrong. This gender/sex/orientation stuff is especially tricky, with many ways to mess it up.

    In general, I want to have politicians who are willing to admit when they are wrong, who are open to new ideas, and who can learn from their mistakes. It’s called being human, and this quality has been in short supply at Westminster for a loong time. Too many egos, who lose sight of the reason they are there, to help their constituents.

  210. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    Whit dis binary mean ?

  211. Graeme Doig
    Ignored
    says:

    Croompenstein at 9:57 pm

    ‘Where do ordinary mothers fit in ?’

    Don’t go bothering ordinary mothers Croomps. They’re far too busy being the glue that holds all this together.

    If it wisnae for them no one would have the time to be discussing this nonsense.

    Definitely away now!

  212. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Alan Mackintosh

    Would it be treason if our First Minister were to have a talk with Vladimir over there at the Kremlin along the lines of say: When Scotland becomes Independent, Russia agrees not to bomb Scotland

    Seeing as how Mr Putins country is partial to a bit of Cod and Haddock, which at the moment we’re not allowed to sell him because our Rulers and Masters in the south are playing: Silly Buggers and Oil Domination because of the Americans and the Gulf States, he might like that

    We could do a similar deal with China, that would be a nice new Bank lender of last resort, they can afford 50 billion for a wee lend of

    Cultural exchange, that’s what we need, wee bit of dialogue

    It’s late and my mind wanders but what a world it would be if folk stuck to their word

  213. mr thms
    Ignored
    says:

    #Dr Jim

    On BBC News this morning one the BBC correspondents stated as fact, it was an assertion, that Britain spends more on defence in Scotland than an independent Scotland ever would..

    Also saw this article on BT News

    http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/bbc-a-unionist-institution-says-channel-4-news-economics-editor-paul-mason-11364001126796

    “BBC a unionist institution, says Channel 4 News economics editor Paul Mason”

  214. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    “BBC a unionist institution, says Channel 4 News economics editor Paul Mason”

    Mason has a conscience. As a former BBC journalist he’s spoken out a few times against BBC’s assertion “We are strictly impartial” as a load of … And I think his recent book has more to say.

    https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/scotlands-carpetbaggers/

  215. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Blimey. I didn’t even bother with all this yesterday, just took the non-cats for a long walk.

  216. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @Grouse Beater

    I recall Mr Mason was one of the few during the referendum debate who called the BBCs coverage out for what it was, ‘propaganda’.

  217. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    This is just a joke. The wasteful Green rubbish. The Greens a handful of middle class English in comers who have tried to ruin the economy of the North East. They are arrogant, ignorant, devious and spiteful. They don’t give a damn for anyone else. They collude with Unionist landowners because they are Unionists.Vote for them at your peril.

    Osbourne is sleekit, Major called them ‘Bastards’.

  218. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Osbourne is mis spending Scottish taxpayers money.

  219. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    At the BBC all the interviewees supported Trident, of course. Spending Scottish taxpayers money illegally.

  220. Nana Smith
    Ignored
    says:

    It seems Jackson Carlow has a beef with the Gaelic language, well here’s my message for Mr Carlow
    “pog mo thoin”

    Our history shows how those with power tried to crush the gaelic language, wearing of highland dress and teaching our history in Scottish schools.

    Who taught the Nazis how to suppress national identity.

    http://www.welshnotbritish.com/2013/10/proud-to-be-british-reinhard-heydrich.html

  221. Robert Kerr
    Ignored
    says:

    But Nana,

    Reinhard Heydrich was running a German Protectorate as Stellvertretender Reichsprotektor

    Not that Scotland has such status even.

  222. Alan Mackintosh
    Ignored
    says:

    Dr Jim, aye, if Nicla were to invite Putin over for a chat, that would have Whitehall jumping the shark. Reminds me of the play from quite a few years ago, ” A very British Coup” where the new Lab PM was being cornered by the establishment over funding and eventually he found an unconventional solution. Was going to tell you, but that would have been a spoiler. Must have been quite good as its probably the only one I remember. Don’t know if its online anywhere.

  223. Alan Mackintosh
    Ignored
    says:

    That last comment prompted me to have a look for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Very_British_Coup
    Didnt realise it was remade in 2012 as Secret State for Ch 4 in 4 parts. Have to look it out. Having reread the snyopsis it looks quite apt for Corbyn should he win.

  224. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    dakk says:

    1 September, 2015 at 12:34 am

    Whit dis binary mean ?

    The opposite of non-binary.

  225. JBS
    Ignored
    says:

    @dakk 1 September, 2015 at 12:34 am

    “Whit dis binary mean?”

    It’s a kind of spicy sauce you can spread on your boiled leeks.

    @Ian Brotherhood 1 September, 2015 at 5:22 am

    “Blimey. I didn’t even bother with all this yesterday, just took the non-cats for a long walk.”

    Yes, pet ferrets can be fun.

    O/T

    Helen Lewis interviews Kezia Dugdale in the New Statesman:

    “…she is under no illusions about how hard her job will be. As she puts it: “There were lots of people saying, ‘Don’t stand, because you’ll have a crap election in 2016, it’s inevitable, and then they’ll have your head and that’ll be you done.’”

    Yeah, and “lots of people” may have been right…

    http://www.newstatesman.com/2015/08/kezia-dugdale-decline-scottish-labour-nobody-knew-what-we-were

  226. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Whit dis binary mean?

    0010 types of people in this world, those who know what 0010 means and the rest.

    Press and journal Tues, another massive tory front page vote imperial master Gideon Osborne boost. Fair enough it’s a hard core tory newspaper but it’s pretty freaky watching this level of propaganda in action everyday. ProjectFearing over and over again.

    Does it work though? “Gideon delivers UKOK £ for you Scotland”

    Aberdeen gets £3 bn of UK oil because there’s none left and home of UKOK nukes Argyll gets half a billion UKOk generosity, to keep you safe you see. Future US president Donald Trump, new editor of the P&J.

  227. Chris Baxter
    Ignored
    says:

    @AdamRamsay

    “Whichever we are talking about, there are some people who don’t neatly fit into either box “men” or “women”.”

    No. That’s their perception of themselves. That doesn’t necessarily make it so.

    If a 30 year-old person has two testicles, a penis, no breasts, and no vagina, and considers themselves to be a woman because they like to wear a dress and lipstick, does that make them a woman?

    If I were a woman, then I’d be pretty insulted if you reply “yes”.

    Gorillas have society. Are you going to suggest there are transgender gorillas as well?

    All you’re doing is dressing up (pun intended) people’s own delusions as fact through being politically correct.

    I wonder if your spin doctoring stretches to ethnicity as well.

  228. Robert Kerr
    Ignored
    says:

    @Luigi

    Doubleplus good!

  229. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Whit dis binary mean?”

    I’ll let you have two guesses…

  230. Lollysmum
    Ignored
    says:

    From the Independent. Nicola Sturgeon to address the public via YouTube today-her vision for Scotland
    https://archive.is/23Uin

  231. Kennedy
    Ignored
    says:

    Attention all women and non-women:
    If you are a good person we accept you regardless of how you define yourself. However, if you are a dick we reject you regardless of how you define yourself.

    Attention all Greens:
    We rip the pish because we love you and actually want you to replace the unionist in Holyrood. If you are Green and unionist, no-one will vote for you.

  232. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    https://archive.is/SnKvq

    Rancid Graun tells NI to behave with stuff like this, via an actual women, maybe Green, we’re all Green.

    “Consider two comparisons. You could look across to Scotland and suggest that Northern Ireland takes its fate into its own hands, as the SNP government has done there. The flaw in this argument is that Scotland remains subsidised and will not, so long as it remains in the UK, run the full risk of bankruptcy, even if it heinously overspends. That eventuality has not yet arisen, but it could.

    The other is with the Irish Republic.”

    UKOK England at endless war in hot countries, UK.gov historic giant debt, Bank of England printing near half a trillion £ QE from nothing, UK inequality/slave wage highest and lowest in West, English cities in flames 2011, they dump their nukes in the Clyde, they extract Scotland’s resources and pump them in to England, and then on top of all that they very decently subsidise their Scotland region.

    Cant think why NZ want the union jack off their flag for good.

  233. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @handclapping says: 31 August, 2015 at 11:44 am:

    “Which raises the question – does a lady who has had a hysterectomy fall in the first or second of their classes.”

    In theses days of transgender changes I suppose there is a stage where the person is genuinely neither one thing or the other. I mean physically, of course, and not as a matter of their personal preferment.

  234. David
    Ignored
    says:

    Chris Baxter says:
    1 September, 2015 at 9:31 am

    @AdamRamsay

    “Whichever we are talking about, there are some people who don’t neatly fit into either box “men” or “women”.”

    No. That’s their perception of themselves. That doesn’t necessarily make it so.

    If a 30 year-old person has two testicles, a penis, no breasts, and no vagina, and considers themselves to be a woman because they like to wear a dress and lipstick, does that make them a woman?

    If I were a woman, then I’d be pretty insulted if you reply “yes”.

    Gorillas have society. Are you going to suggest there are transgender gorillas as well?

    All you’re doing is dressing up (pun intended) people’s own delusions as fact through being politically correct.

    I wonder if your spin doctoring stretches to ethnicity as well.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    As Nicola said BOLLOCKS. {assuming that this is now a mainstream comment and allowable}

    So we should just ignore transsexuals and hermaphrodites.

    The intersexed, people of the third sex that are actually non males and non females

    OR Maybe they all should join the green party help ma bob

  235. Flower of Scotland
    Ignored
    says:

    Thanks for that link Lollysmum.

    I was really excited to hear that the First Minister is going to do a youtube version of her Education commitment to the Scots. She will share it on social media today. Show the BBC and all media that she can her messages out to the population despite them!

  236. Glamaig
    Ignored
    says:

    “and then on top of all that they very decently subsidise their Scotland region.”

    I’m still waiting for the big lie to come back and bite the red/blue tories in the ass with a big grassroots English and Tory backbench campaign to get rid of that expensive scrounging Scotland region full of whinging jocks that’s such a drag on their economy.

    Think of that 20bn black hole that could be saved and how much better off the UK would be without us.

    I think we should infiltrate the tories and kick off that campaign.

  237. Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T but in response to that poor wee soul, Jackson Carlaw:

    1. The Scottish Government from 1999 to 2007 consisted of a Slab/LibDem coalition.

    2. It was in 2001 that the Slab/LibDem Government announced plans to erect bilingual signage along trunk roads in the Highlands.

    3. We have established that the SNP were not in power at that time?

    4. The government policy is that bilingual roadsigns are only erected when for example, replacing older, perhaps damaged signs and on new or upgraded roads.

    5. Due to this policy, the cost to the taxpayer for the gradual replacement of older signs and signage for the occasional new/upgraded road have been and are negligible.

    6. Did you get excited and naively believe someone else’s “SNP bad” propaganda or did you pull that £26M figure for road signs out of your own arsehole?

    No “SNP BAD” to see here Jackson, jog on.

  238. Jack Murphy
    Ignored
    says:

    Macart says:1st September, 2015 at 5:47 am:-
    “I recall Mr Mason was one of the few during the referendum debate who called the BBCs coverage out for what it was, ‘propaganda’.”

    The Herald is carring that story. Paul Mason is a former economics editor for BBC Newsnight and Channel4.
    “The BBC sees itself a “a unionist institution……………..” 🙁

    The Herald article: https://archive.is/GhOaA

  239. Chris Baxter
    Ignored
    says:

    So we should just ignore transsexuals and hermaphrodites.

    The intersexed, people of the third sex that are actually non males and non females

    Transexuals isn’t a gender.

    “intersexed” – get a grip.

    And just because someone somewhere has created a label, that doesn’t make the label valid.

    What next; “I wear lipstick but not nail varnish, I wear thongs but like to shave, I’m every woman, I’m every man, how dare you oppress me, my label is omnihuman”. Yeah, how about that: I’m Omnihuman. In fact, go further, because you’re not including the rest of the animal kingdom, which is so terribly unfair to all the canines, bovines etc. So “I’m Omnianimal”. But now you’re not including the plants. And so on.

    There will also be people who need pandered to, so they feel so special, so unique. If you want to pander to them, that’s your right. Just as it’s my right to call you daft.

    Why don’t you actually provide an example, rather than blethering on about spurious, pretentious concepts?

    By the way; just saying bollocks doesn’t address any of the points. And if you’re not going to address them, then your input is worthless.

    First world problems, eh.

  240. Morag
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh for goodness sake, intersex is a recognised medical condition. Babies are born with ambiguous sexual morphology. In the past an arbitrary decision was taken to assign them to one sex or the other (usually female because that’s easier to construct surgically), often with disastrous consequences if the child didn’t agree.

    I believe the modern thinking is that it’s best to leave the child alone and see which sex s/he identifies with, and then whether s/he actually wants surgery to normalise matters.

    It’s bloody rare though, so I’m struggling to see why the existence of these people needs to inform a political party’s selection criteria. Even less so, why intersex people (undoubtedly disadvantaged) should be lumped in with men (the traditionally advantaged group).

    Given that everyone is legally either male or female, even intersex people, why not simply go by the individual’s legal sex?

  241. Chris Baxter
    Ignored
    says:

    @Morag

    “intersex is a recognised medical condition.”

    It’s not a gender though.

    “intersex people [are] (undoubtedly disadvantaged)”

    In what ways?

  242. Blair paterson
    Ignored
    says:

    On the vote on 2016 vote SNP twice on your ballot paper

  243. jcd
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m glad this boring silly season crap’s nearly over.

    Oh, and btw since Lucas voted against Scotland the SGP can go take a flying fuck to itself.

    SNP+SNP

  244. David
    Ignored
    says:

    What you are looking at is the creeping doom of radical feminist pish that will try to worm its way into every progressive movement and party.

    I got banned from Bella Caledonia for pointing out that when someone said ‘we need a fairer society, one that puts women first’ it is in fact not a ‘fair society they are after.

    I f***ing hate modern feminism and the screeching small minded harpies who speak for it.

    While women are being treated as cattle and sexual property as part of some other cultures ‘norm’ western feminists are pushing for the most rediculous man-crushing legislation here in the west.

    This piece of nonsense is an example of how useful you become after doing a social science degree…

  245. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    Man, oh man.

  246. DickieT
    Ignored
    says:

    I assume its an all encompassing description just like Perth and Kinross Council’s on-line application Form Select “Male / Female / Androgyn.

    Personally disnae bother me

  247. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi jcd.

    “I’m glad this boring silly season crap’s nearly over.”

    Well, after ploughing my way through today’s current page, all I can type is a long row of “LOL’s”, whatever that is in emoticon language.

  248. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    Yesindyref2. 7.59

    I’m sure control over W o S would be worth a bit more than $77981 to the British State.

    They are about to waste One Hundred Thousand Million Pounds on pretending to protect Britain from an imaginary threat,whereas they could just buy Wings for a fraction of that,and be more likely to stop their nation being ‘destroyed’.

    In fact if they’re quick I think a packet of beef Space Raiders might swing it tonight,the mood Stuart is in.

    Never mind Perfidious Albion,how about Profligate Albion.

  249. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    @ me. 10.20

    Sorry,wrong thread,meant for The lesser of 2 Stupids.

    Got distracted when thought I was having heart attack,took aspirin ,OK now.

    Stuart was nearly up on a manslaughter charge there.



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