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Kezia Dugdale Fact Check, Part 679

Posted on March 22, 2017 by

Sky News earlier this morning:

Our ears always prick up when Kezia says she’s counted something herself.

Dugdale’s comment is absolutely unambiguous that what she’s talking about is the period of campaigning before the first referendum on 18 September 2014. So how has she arrived at a figure of 847 days?

– The SNP won an overall majority at Holyrood on 6 May 2011. From that point on it was clear there would be a referendum, and people started talking seriously about it. (For example, by the weekend after the election the Sunday Times was talking about “senior Tories” like David Mundell trying to force a snap vote.) But counting from that date gives us 1,231 days.

– The Edinburgh Agreement, where the UK government formally transferred the powers to hold the referendum to Holyrood, making it a legal reality, was signed on 15 October 2012. But that’s only 703 days.

– The Order In Council at Westminster which actually passed the Agreement into law didn’t happen until 12 February 2013, which is 583 days.

– Alex Salmond announced the official date of the referendum on 21 March 2013. Classing that as the beginning would make 546 days.

To get a figure of 847 days, you have to start on 24 May 2012. We asked around and an alert reader pointed out that Yes Scotland launched just one day later, on 25 May, which by Kezia Dugdale’s standards would count as pinpoint accuracy.

But since “Better Together” didn’t launch for another month after that, on 25 June, one could hardly say the debate had begun, since under that criterion there was only one side in it. So she’s a minimum of 31 days out, and realistically more like 400.

The tragic thing is, that’s probably still a personal best.


Previous Kezia Dugdale Fact Checks: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]

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  1. 22 03 17 11:56

    Kezia Dugdale Fact Check, Part 679 | speymouth

383 to “Kezia Dugdale Fact Check, Part 679”

  1. Dr Ew says:

    Harsh. It looks cold in that video so she couldn’t take her shoes and socks off to help with the big numbers.

  2. Grinning idiot:has nothing upstairs.

  3. Lollysmum says:

    Thank heavens she doesn’t manage a budget is all I can say.

    Time to dig out the photos of the Labour calculator again-gonna need them on twitter 🙂

  4. Martin says:

    Prof Dugdale strikes again. I almost feel sorry for SLAB… She’s never been right about anything, that must grate. Then I remember the type of people involved (Anas Sarwar being a particularly awful human being) and I stop the pity.

  5. Macart says:

    TBF Ms Dugdale probably wasn’t aware anything of any importance was happening at all until some policy wonk informed her the day before (cough).

  6. Lollysmum says:

    Ooft Dr Ew- apt & definitely appropriate in the circumstances

  7. heedtracker says:

    Her sneaky “85% of Scots voted and voted NO” stuff, is very SLabour too.

  8. Dr Jim says:

    Fundilymundily sums can be confyoosing and complexcated just ask Kevin Hague who’s been on the BBC and knows a thing or two about, well maybe not!

    Kezia was at school when Labour were in charge, she should have had extra lessons from her Daddy, he’s in the SNP you know

    Smart man!

  9. Ian says:

    So she’s saying that no matter how much things change, you just plod along as if nothing has changed. The widespread view around the world was that Brexit was really dumb and that people in the UK were idiots to have voted for it. To give those that voted leave some credit, they were fed lies, lies that were proven to be such virtually immediately after the vote. But according to the unionists Brexit and it’s lies don’t require any reevaluation?

    If the Brexit shambles and lies aren’t grounds for reconsidering the UK as an entity then it only definitively shows what a bunch of callous self serving freeloaders the people who try to sell the ‘ignore it’ message are.

  10. Thomas Valentine says:

    Sounds like she is referring to some deal between the tories and labour that was done in secret. Only now she has blurted it out in public like a talentless and clueless oaf.

  11. Bob Mack says:

    The lassie is way out of her depth. She was elected to present Scottish Labour as a dynamic party with a young dynamic female leader. It transpires it was more about appearance than ability. It takes more than a law degree to be a “Portia”.

    She must have believed in independence at one time or she would never have tried to join the SNP.

    Hapless, helpless, and hopeless.

    Labour has taught her much. It has taught her to lie without regret. It has taught her to hate without compassion. It has taught her that principles are expendable .

    Labour only use her for their own ends. They cynically tried to ensure their national seat count at Westminster would be regained courtesy of their former serfs in Scotland. She will be expendable soon . It would have happened already had Labour not been in such a mess down south.

    No Kezia. Leadership is about more than who shouts loudest. It is about who can inspire the best. That position belongs to Nicola.

  12. Capella says:

    847 is a remarkably definite number. No rounding up for Kezia. Reminds me of Miss Brodie when summoned to the headmistress’ office at 4.15 pm :

    “She seeks to intimidate me by the use of the quarter hour.”

  13. Free Scotland says:

    “847 days” is a coded message from labour’s branch office to the London HQ. It probably means something like: “Help, support for independence up here is now sitting at 84.7 per cent.”

  14. Robert Graham says:

    Oh f/k me pick a number , any bloody number who cares it will never be challenged , a nice wee throw away line bordering on a lie when she more or less hinted the 85% who voted , voted NO a slip of the gob Kezia or a rehearsed little fib meant to confuse.
    This slip from anyone else might be forgivable from Kezia Aye right nice try but no cigar dear .

  15. Merkin Scot says:

    Loved the ‘conflation’ which tried to suggest that 85% of Scots voted against freedom from Westminster.
    Pure Gold.

  16. handclapping says:

    Remarkable she did indeed mention that it was held then. Somebody should ask her if anything has changed since then. Logically she will have to say no, then you ask her how come in that case she is now the leaderene.

    It is depressing that they cannot see that TMay BoJo DeeDee and Foxy have changed our world utterly so the circumstances of 2014 are not those of today and the ‘divisive’ arguments of then are not relevant today

  17. galamcennalath says:

    “847 days”

    Perhaps it’s the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Union, and Everything, calculated by an enormous supercomputer in London HQ.

    Unfortunately, no one now knows what the question was. 🙂

  18. Marker Post says:

    @Free Scotland. Could be code for the 847 Royal Naval Air Squadron to come in…

  19. MajorBloodnok says:

    She said yesterday that oil and gas business had actually COST the UK money last year. WTF is she on.

  20. Jim says:

    You are getting sloppy Stu, you missed the part at the end of the clip where she said, “85% voted in that referendum and they voted no”.

  21. Cuilean says:

    Dugdale’s last sentence should read, ‘..and we just want to freeze Scotland in time, reliving’Groundhog Day’ – 19th September 2014.

  22. liz says:

    Kezia Dugdale is a whinging wee whinger.

    She should be in politics except maybe as a councillor cos that’s her limit.

  23. Our education system must have been really had a problem, when we see people like Kezia Dugdale.

    And she has the brass neck to give lectures to SNP ministers at Holyrood on education.

  24. Jim says:


    She should be in politics except maybe as a councillor cos that’s her limit.
    The Peter principle should have found her out long before she reached that level of office.

  25. Sorry, before anyone picks me up the grammatical error.
    I thought I had deleted the word been.

  26. Vestas says:

    She’s definitely got worse since she went to the USA for her brainwashing course last year. No doubt at all.

  27. Proud Cybernat says:

    The simple fact these uber-yoons cannot get into their thick craniums is this: Scotland voted to remain two Unions. In the first referendum (UK) it voted 55%-45% in favour of remaining. In the second referendum (EU) it voted 62%-38% of remaining. There is a much larger majority wish to remain European than there is to remain British. But we cannot be European AND British.

    It has come down one or the other. We did not ask to be placed in this position–indeed, we were assured in 2014 that it could never happen. But it has and here we are.

    Scotland absolutely requires a THIRD referendum to decide this issue–it is the fairest way of settling this matter. To deny us this choice while every other nation in Europe, including tiny Malta and Belgium, gets a say in what happens to us would be a complete affront to democracy in this country and simply cannot ever be allowed.

    Only a third referendum can reasonably settle this issue.

  28. Macart says:

    Theresa May at PMQs

    “This isn’t a question about whether the people of Scotland should have a choice or not”

    That is an outright and bald faced lie by the PM. This is ALL about our right to choose.

    So, Daily Record. Scotland’s Champion. Are you willing to let this stand? Is this the better togetherness your readership should enjoy?

  29. walking on sunshine says:

    She wanted it in 2014 because she thought they would win it.
    She’s dead against it in 2018 because she knows they will lose it.
    Democracy Slab style.

  30. JaceF says:

    Hmm Dugdale maths:

    There are seven days in a week, there are four weeks in a month, there are thirty months in a generation (two and a half years) so.

    7 x 4 x 30 = 840 err on caution and add 7 just in case.


  31. Clydebuilt says:

    Radio 2 Jeremey Vine …… Discussing the Scottish Parliament debate on Ondy…..brought on 4 people …. We were supposed to assume they were eligible to vote in Indy Ref. 2. Every one was strongly anti Indy Ref2. …..

    Straight over to The BBC’s radio station in Scotland……. Ronald MacDonald …Unionist economist…… Preceded by John McLaren Unionist economist on before 9pm

  32. Arbroath1320 says:

    @Free Scotland @Marker Post

    Sorry guys, I have to disagree I think you’ll find that her number of 847 is the actual number of members of Labour in Scotland.

    It’s official folks.

    Labour in Scotland do NOT have 30,000 members, nor do they have 20,000 members they actually have an exact number of 847 members. 😀

  33. gus1940 says:


    Private Eye has historically been against Scottish Independence but not with the same hysterical attitude taken by the London blats.

    Most of the time when attacking Indy it depends on bollocks fed to it by an unnamed Scottish correspondent with the result that its comments re Indy are at best uninformed but at worst frequently untrue.

    It has been suggested frequently to Ian Hislop that said correspondent should receive the old heave ho.

    This morning I received the latest copy of The Eye and was pleasantly surprised to see a small piece comparing the English and Scottish editions of The Sun regarding Indy.

    Elsewhere there were a few snide anti-Indy comments.

    Stu has on several occasions produced wonderful graphics comparing the English and Scottish editions of various blats and if anybody has saved said images can I suggest that copies be forwarded to The Eye in the hope that they might publish them.

  34. Effijy says:

    I love how in sport, justice is sought.
    Medal winners from the Moscow Olympic games have recently been proven to have used illegal Drugs, and so they are being chased for their medals, and these are now to be presented to those clean athletes, who were cheated.

    Drug users who won the Tour De France are being stripped from the record books.

    Usain Bolt is to be stripped of a relay Gold Medal through a team mates’ positive drug test, but in politics:

    People who voted No in the referendum were persuaded by the promise of extensive new powers, a Federal State, Home Rule, ALL of which turned out to be Lies, Cheating, Corrupt.

    Others Voted No as it was proclaimed to be the only way that
    they could stay in Europe. Another unjust comment, a lie that sees us being ripped out of Europe against our will.

    The 3,000 HMRC Employees in East Kilbride urged their family, friends and local community to vote No as it was the only way that they could keep their jobs.
    That’s the Jobs that have been relocated to Croydon near London.

    The Ship yard workers the same situation, the only way to land 13 new ships was to Vote No. The order was cancelled at one point, but now they have a reduced order of 8 Ships that was placed late, and cost jobs.

    Peterhead voted No as they would get a £Billion Carbon Capture plant with a No vote and unemployment in the area would be dramatically reduced.
    No Vote Received, the project was cancelled.

    A No vote would see Scotland get £3 Billion to develop renewable energy projects. No vote Received, All Funding Stopped.

    How dare these Westminster Rats suggest that the referendum vote was clean, fair, or just.

    I,and Scotland, want justice!
    We want the cheats and liars exposed for what they are and brought to justice.

  35. Les Wilson says:

    As you listen to Dugdale,you cannot bu help asking yourself
    “who ties her laces?”

  36. Mike says:

    Borg Queen: Hey poundshop. Did I hear right? Is it true you can only count to 21?

    Poundshop Borg Queen: Eh Aye but in ma defence Ive only got 9 fingers and 12 toes.

  37. Vestas says:

    @gus1940 12:57 pm :


    Private Eye has historically been against Scottish Independence…”

    It would be more accurate to say Ian Hislop is anti-Scots, taught by his daddy. Educated at Ardingly College (public school) & Magdalen College, Oxford.

    I’ve watched/listened to/read the snide bastard’s comments on us more than 20 years before indyref1.

    You’re wasting your time. Really, he’s one of the establishment these days. Kids educated at Brasenose College and Jesus College Oxford….

    I’d stop paying for it were I you. I did that in 1997 when he was slagging off devolution (and Scots).

  38. Les Wilson says:

    Dugdale comes to mind in this good quote from Bill Murray

    ” It is hard to win an argument with a smart person,but it is damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid one.”

  39. Artyhetty says:

    Lying toad. We can all scoff at her for not seeming to be the sharpest tool in the box, but these people are not as daft as we think. She has squirmed her way to a top job, with a very lucrative wage, and into the bargain, gets to spout lies and nonsense that are piped into peoples’ living rooms.

    How many people are watching this crap out with Scotland and taking it as gospel. She and her tory pals are pandering to a wider audience than Scotland, so that anything they do to stall or stop independence is seen as legitimate.

    I was looking up how many years these people have to serve before getting a canny pension, I think it is 13 years?

    Love the 1-10 previous fact checks under the article. Dugdale should by now have a reputation, for telling porkies. I say, should.

  40. Wee Alex says:

    Jim says:
    22 March, 2017 at 12:34 pm


    She should be in politics except maybe as a councillor cos that’s her limit.


    Bit unfair on Councillors don’t you think.

    I gave up watching yesterday. Rennie did it for me, an utter clown.

  41. Dr Jim says:

    Theresa May has effectively announced her intention to void Scotland as a country and even the Unionists should be concerned about the implications of that because crossing their fingers and thinking she wont go any further than just blocking the SNP is a hefty mistake
    The Unionists might think they’re getting what they want now but further on down the line there are many more decisions they wont like that Mrs May and her troops can make and they need’nt think the SNP will be there to prevent that happening

    What happens to Scotland if the SNP are not there, do the Labour party see a revival, if they do how long will it last, not long I suspect

    So It’s Tories all the way under puppet Ruth Davidson

    But of course if Theresa Mays plan is to use Brexit to make the Tories even richer than they already are then resign from office and allow an ineffective Labour party into office to take the flack for the Brexit fallout then Scotland will gain Independence the Tories will blame the loss of Scotland on Labour, keeping the Tories record in government flawless

    Then Boom four years later the Tories are back to replace Labour and still get to crow about Labour incompetence on breaking up the Union

    So Now is not the time probably means it will be the time right after the Tories decide to lose the next election

    The same applies to the SNP they don’t have to do anything but wait till the country is screaming for them to be back in government to fix the shit that the current crop of Unionists are putting us in right now

    So Independence will still happen but it might have to be at the Tories convenience and Labour supporters will still be made to look like the Arses they are

  42. Ian says:

    ‘UK-based airlines told to move to Europe after Brexit or lose major routes. Fears for UK jobs as EU officials say airlines will need to move base and majority of shareholders to fly routes within Europe’.

    Just another trivial real world Brexit fubar. Never mind, just ignore it. We’ve covered all this before.

    I must have missed that bit.

    If Scotland does remain in the EU, decisions like this open up yet more positive conditions for Scotland. I wonder if the GERS projections (guesses) took things like this into account?

  43. Black Joan says:

    Private Eye’s ignorance and Britnat line re Scotland is very disappointing and caused me to stop reading it too.

    Quote below is from BBC UKOK Who Do You Think You Are? programme. So Hislop is another one with Scots ancestry who appears to nurture his own version of the cringe:

    “Ian knew less about his father’s family history, but his research helped him flesh out the story of his paternal grandfather, David Murdoch Hislop. He was raised in Ayr, and was an enigmatic, distant and mysterious figure in Ian’s early life. He was a strict headmaster, a lay preacher and a stern moralist.

    During the Great War he went to the front line in 1918, and was part of the 9th Highland Infantry that fought in the battle of Targelle Ravine on 29 September, one of many futile battles fought in that war. David Hislop’s regiment suffered grievous losses during one morning of battle for little gain, and fought for two weeks before breaking through the front line.”

  44. Arbroath1320 says:

    Think I’ll just leave these here. These are just a few examples of the incredible “bonus” we are going to be receiving as a result of Brexit! 🙂

    Not forgetting these either:

  45. Chick McGregor says:

    Baillie, Davidson and Dugdale, role models for honesty like Herod was for childcare.

  46. manandboy says:

    After a faltering start in Wales, what odds against Theresa May not completing her UK ‘listening’ tour.

    As a PR stunt designed to bolster her non-existent ‘listening’ credentials in Brexit talks, I suspect it will fail comprehensively.

    At least she’s consistent.

  47. Vestas says:

    @Black Joan 1:48 pm :

    “So Hislop is another one with Scots ancestry who appears to nurture his own version of the cringe”

    Probably inevitable given daddy was a civil engineer who worked in “Empire Countries” & then he went to public school/Oxford. Wouldn’t have had an accent due to daddy’s work so nice & easy to say nothing I bet.

    People are usually what their environment moulds them into.

  48. Capella says:

    Show will be starting soon:

  49. HandandShrimp says:

    One could argue that it began on the 23rd June 1928 when the National Party of Scotland was founded.

    Did Kezia have a point? (I appreciate that this is usually optional as all roads lead to SNPbaaaad)

  50. DAllan says:

    Apart from taking the piss, why is this important? Should we not be trying to raise the level of the debate, instead of trivialising it?

  51. Arbroath1320 says:

    Oops last post stuck in the ether. I’ll try and break it down here.

    Here are just some examples of how “glorious” Brexit will be.

  52. joannie says:

    I remember some of the things Ian Hislop said on HIGNFY around the time of the last referendum. He’s very biased against independence and the SNP, so I wouldn’t expect Private Eye to be fair in their coverage of the issue.

  53. Dorothy Devine says:

    Some truly superb letters in the National – and I just caught up with Peter Bell’ magnificent comment on Kevin McKenna’s article.

    There is a wee photo of WGD’s daddy in the paper which looks very much better on line! The one on line definitely speaks to you.

    Lucky Lockerbie will hear the man himself

  54. Footsoldier says:

    O/T but if anyone ever had any doubt about where The Herald stood on the independence issue, today’s paper provides a real pointer.

    The front page bold headline says “Tycoon vows not to invest while vote on Union looms”. This refers to Alasdair Locke who was on the No side in the last campaign and a known Tory supporter.

    On the same topic in the same edition there is another headline “Bellway says independence would not alter strategy”. This comment was made by Keith Adey, group finance director. However The Herald chooses to tuck this away low down on the back page with a rather small headline. The question is, why does the one get a big prominent headline and the other not?

  55. manandboy says:

    The Westminster / Unionist strategy at the moment is clearly to attack the SNP Government by accusing it of failing to implement policy votes taken in the Scottish Parliament, and by so doing to portray the SNP as being unfit to govern an independent Scotland.
    The unwary voter, on hearing this line of criticism, will conclude that Independence under the SNP would be risky.

    Forgetting that being a colony under the Tories outside the EU, will be Austerity-Max.

    The SNP need to present a very robust defence of the Scottish Government’s record on this score. And quickly, before it gains a foothold with soft voters.

  56. Holebender says:

    2012 was a leap year so she has probably added a day for that. Unfortunately for her the leap day (February 29th) was before May so she’s buggered herself up.

  57. Arbroath1320 says:

    Part two of my mini list of “glorious” affects of Brexit. 😉

    Has the penny dropped yet amongst the Yoons about just how GREAT it will be to live in an EX E.U. UK yet? 😀

  58. Vestas says:

    @Footsoldier 2:12 pm :

    “O/T but if anyone ever had any doubt about where The Herald stood on the independence issue”

    Ummm you must be new here 🙂

    Here’s a quick summary of the “Herald papers” positions on indy….

    Daily Herald : No Surrender to the SNP

    Sunday Herald : We’d like you to believe that we’re pro-indy but we’re really here to post divisive stuff to split your vote. Most of us.

    The National : Pro-indy. Personally I’m not entirely convinced as its owned by the same group and is sub-edited in the same place as the other two papers (Cardiff).

    You’re preaching to the choir matey, nobody here has the slightest doubt what the Daily Heralds stance is 🙂

  59. K1 says:

    Cheers Capella 🙂

    James sit down Kelly oan the noo…complaint about ‘social housing’…fucking cheek…getting smelled as ah type!

  60. K1 says:

    skelped…no smelled…hmm…perhaps a fitting typo 🙂

  61. Desimond says:


    Private EYe has now gone so far beyond the Yoon Pale that its actually part of the read to see how many times they:

    a: Mention anything Scotland related
    b: Slag SNP
    c: Rant at the Scottish Govt ( yeah you Pilori!)

    Sometimes there can be no mention whatsoever or the standard Letters contribution with someone damning SNP\Scotland or agreeing with a previous damnation.

    Once in a clue moon you get an NHS rant at England with an ,unlike in Scotland, line included but very rare.

    You will soon find yourself placing bets before you open an edition “Okay, this time I reckon 3 rants or sarcastic digs!”. Enjoy

  62. Mik Johnstone says:

    everytime the Dug talks about either The SNP, The Yoonion, or The New Independence referendum, i swear to god she’s gonna implode and turn into either Davros or a Dalek… Queue dodgy BBC set design …

  63. Vestas says:

    @Arbroath1320 2:14 pm

    “Part two of my mini list of “glorious” affects of Brexit. ?

    Thank gods for that!

    My main worry for indy Scotland in the EU is shite like HSBC (caught laundering money again) will move to Edinburgh.

    Scotland doesn’t need a whole load of bankers decamping north & continuing their corruption.

    If Dublin wants them then good. I’d avoid them like the plague….

  64. Bob Mack says:

    Interesting link on Rev’s twitter feed about the deficits of the various nations in the UK. It seems that Scotland Wales and N Ireland have over 52% of the national UK deficit attributed to them even though we only have a toal population of just over 10 million.

    Funny that.

  65. Ken500 says:

    The Unionist don’t want another IndyRef2 because they are too lazy to campaign for it. They can’t be bothered. They would rather do what they usually do. Sit on their lazy backside troughing on public money while killing and starving vulnerable people to death. They just don’t care as long as the cheque keeps rolling in for total useless incompetence. They have the electoral system tied up so the voters can’t get rid if them. That is why they are so smug. Ignorant, arrogant and total incompetents. Useless.

    No wonder the majority of the electorate don’t support PR. Getting taken a lend of and having to vote for people, of whom they can’t stand the sight. This is what puts people off voting. They really can’t be bothered with it. Undemocratic complicated electoral system. A total unreasonable proposition. Winding up, trolling and patronising the electorate by half-wit politicans who have the result screwed up. Puts voters off even more.

  66. Artyhetty says:

    Does anyone have any idea why site is down, on any device I try, and with different browsers. Gives an error message and long reference number. I wanted to look something up.

    The ‘Scottish labour’ site is loading fine. Is the vote today by any chance.

  67. sensibledave says:

    Yo Cybie (12.40)

    You wrote: “Scotland absolutely requires a THIRD referendum to decide this issue–it is the fairest way of settling this matter. To deny us this choice while every other nation in Europe, including tiny Malta and Belgium, gets a say in what happens to us would be a complete affront to democracy in this country and simply cannot ever be allowed.”

    …. who has said that Scotland can’t have another referendum?

    The only message I have heard is “now is not the time”.

    Ms Sturgeon agrees with that, she doesn’t want one now either.

    I believe Ms Sturgeon wants to choose the very moment when the UK will be attempting to finalise the most important negotiations for the UK in recent history. The very moment that will be so important to the economy of the UK (including Scotland – whether it is in, or out, of the UK at a future date).

    If you want to be taken seriously, best to stop the disingenuous rhetoric.

    Its pure political posturing designed to cause as much discomfiture to as many people as possible at a time when we really don’t need these distraction.

    We know, from her past, Ms Sturgeon is a political opportunist that will throw her integrity under the bus if she thinks she can score a political point.

    In a way, it would be very amusing if Ms May named a date, in say 3 months time, for a Scottish Referendum – just to watch Ms Sturgeon back pedal at 100 mph because she doesn’t actually want a referendum because she knows she wont win it.

    You and I both know by now there will not be another indyref before the UK Brexits – because neither Ms May or Ms Sturgeon actually wants one!

    All of the other pretendy, shouty stuff is about the set up to SNP supporters as to why Ms Sturgeon wont be holding a referendum before Brexit (i.e. its absolutely not because the Scottish electorate would vote it down, heavens no, its because nasty Westminster are stopping it).

  68. Ken500 says:

    England/Wales have a deficit of £1.7Trns. Scotland has to pay off loan payments on their debts even though the money is spent, on HS2, Hinkley Point. Heathrow and Trident. £500Billion. All a total waste of public money. Plus Scotland has to pay £1Billion for Trident. Double whammy. Paying the debts and another £1Billion. £1Billion could reduce child poverty in Scotland.Money much better spent. Etc, etc.

    £20Billion is wasted or taken out of Scotland because Westminster policies. High illegallyTory taxes on the Oil sector. Stopping production etc.

  69. Proud Cybernat says:

    Yo Risible – “The only message I have heard is “now is not the time”

    Aye Risible – that’s cos your ear is glued to listenin tae the wankers in WM. Try listening to the Yoon arseholes here in Holyrood – “The people of Scotland don’t want another referendum – BWAAAAAHHHH!”

    Oh and – nudge, nudge – wink, wink.

  70. Arbroath1320 says:

    Artyhetty says:
    22 March, 2017 at 2:38 pm

    Does anyone have any idea why site is down, on any device I try, and with different browsers. Gives an error message and long reference number. I wanted to look something up.

    The ‘Scottish labour’ site is loading fine. Is the vote today by any chance.

    I have no idea Arty, I did try and contact them via their website but apparently their website is down. 😀

    Maybe it has crashed due to the unexpected huge numbers of people applying to join the party. 😀

    As I hinted at earlier today Arty, Labour only have 847 members in Scotland so it stands to reason their website will be working fine. 😀

  71. galamcennalath says:

    Just reading this about how deep in the shite May has hot herself …

    The Tories have got themselves into one Hell of a constitutional mess with Brexit and Scotland. I obviously have no sympathy.

    She appears to have little option but to grant a section 30.

    I’m beginning to think that many in England probably accept the Union is over.

  72. Artyhetty says:

    Re;Bob Mack@2.32

    Of course, very handy, blame your neighbours for your debt, and make them pay. Win win.

    England is like a protection racket when it comes to the rUK, take their money, ‘we’re all one big happy family’. Got that? ‘Here,(handing a few notes back) buy your miss’s a nice new dress, now get lost outa my sight’! Scotland, N.I.,Wales, scurry away, lucky to be alive.

    Well we got the big boys and girls, watching our backs now, haven’t we? EU27? 🙂

  73. Liam says:

    “There are reports of shots being fired outside the Houses of Parliament and the Palace of Westminster is reportedly in lockdown.”

  74. Artyhetty says:


    Oh I forgot about that, yes Slab are so lightweight. In fact, they are so yesterday.

    Site for still totally down. Not happened before, not surprised though.

  75. Arbroath1320 says:

    Looks like someone has taken a bit of a hump to what the Despot Mayhem has been saying recently.

  76. Arbroath1320 says:

    Quick update to my last post. RT are reporting that TWO people have been shot.

  77. People Carrier says:

    Alex Neil……….mischief making. Not impressed.

  78. geeo says:

    Convenient timing…..!

    Expect the tories to milk this to death.

  79. Andy Anderson says:

    When Kez went to her Labour managed school maybe they used the Roman Callandar and 1 + 1 = 2.5

    I tried yesterday and today to watch some of the debate. Frustrated, angry and bored. Turned off.

  80. Shex says:

    She’s just a wee bit flustered as she was too busy wiping egg off Jim Murphy around that time.

  81. People Carrier says:

    Ian gray…………….just awful, just truly awful.

  82. Arbroath1320 says:

    People Carrier says:
    22 March, 2017 at 3:08 pm

    Ian gray…………….just awful, just truly awful.

    He’s improved then PC. 😀

  83. John Edgar says:

    Kez and Jackie Baillie are no use with figures.

  84. Chick McGregor says:

    I have absolute faith that the fine people of an independent England will sort things out down there, eventually.

    It may be a big un as far as swamps go, but they will drain it I’m sure.

    When that does happen, even those who would otherwise have been members of a privileged elite will benefit in personal human fulfillment terms even if they do not realise it themselves.

  85. Sinky says:

    Cole Hamilton’s speech shows up his lack of oratry. More creative at filling in expenses forms.

  86. K1 says:

    Are we kidding wi this cole whatisname? Talk about milking it! Puhlease….

    Any one any idea whit’s happened at Westminster?

  87. Artyhetty says:

    Awful happenings at WM bridge. 🙁

  88. K1 says:

    Right…ah see.

  89. Nana says:


    Wings get a mention and well done to all who have stopped paying for skytv

  90. Liz Rannoch says:

    SNP now OK. I checked out the Scottish Parliament site and they have a ‘live chat’ thingy. They checked it for me and said it was working ok. I explained about it being down and others saying the same, however all’s well that ends well.

    Am I too baad – hoping that it’s no been a Scottish person thats involved wi’ the shooting?

  91. Arbroath1320 says:

    There is still no great info coming out about incident at Westminster. What I have heard reported is :

    1) House of Commons were in the middle of a vote but the HoC has been adjourned for the rest of the day.

    2) up to around 10 people have been injured on Westminster Bridge after being struck by a vehicle driving along the pavement of Westminster Bridge. Looking at footage on SKY it appears the pedestrians who were injured were on the West side of the bridge i.e. the road side heading towards Westminster.

    3) a vehicle crashed into gates at Westminster and one occupant vacated vehicle and ran into Old Palace Yard. One police officer has been stabbed. The attacker has been shot.

    4) Casualties on Westminster Bridge are being attended to as are the police officer and attacker at Old Palace Yard.

    5) police are working through the Palace of Westminster checking for any other intruders.

    6) Scotland Yard are now saying they are treating this as a terrorist incident.

  92. Macandroid says:

    There’s a wee naughty bit at the end as well.
    “85% of Scotland’s population voted in the referendum and they voted NO”.

    Sorry Kez 85% of Scotland’s population did not vote NO. Was that a sneaky wee bit of subliminal falsehood or is she just dumb?

  93. Bob Mack says:

    Sadly people have been hurt at Westminster incident. My heart goes out to them.

  94. Chick McGregor says:

    Westminster events, shocking. Hope it is not as bad as it is looking.

  95. Mike says:

    Baillie kicks off by quoting Jim Sillars.

    It can only get better and will still be demented.

  96. Mike says:

    Baillie another Tory denying interventions.

  97. Vestas says:

    @galamcennalath 2:52 pm :

    “I’m beginning to think that many in England probably accept the Union is over.”

    You’re a bit behind the curve here – with the greatest respect. Since GE2015 when the Tories deployed the “SNP card” in their electioneering in E&W its very hard indeed to find people who don’t believe Scots get subsidised.

    As such I’d say the average resident of E&W doesn’t give a damn about Scottish independence. In fact the most likely response is “they want to go then fine, they can pay their own bills”.

    They simply don’t care. Just like they got taught the EU was the bogeyman, Scotland is the scrounger.

    Going to be an interesting few years 🙂

  98. Liz Rannoch says:

    God now I really do feel bad. Didn’t know about WM bridge. Hope everybody involved will be alright.

  99. Mike says:

    Another Tory telling us we knew the result of the 2015 General Election and the result of the EU referendum back in 2014 and voted accordingly.

    Hells Teeth.

  100. Vestas says:

    @Nana 3:34 pm :


    Wings get a mention and well done to all who have stopped paying for skytv

    Aye but have a word with her eh?

    ” Wings joins Commonspace and others in a thriving alternative media landscape in Scotland.”

    What’s that guff all about? Don’t tell me she chose those words by mistake.

  101. Meg merrilees says:

    Holyrood suspended following incident at Westminster. to be resumed…

  102. geeo says:

    Referendum Debate shut down for absolutely NO good reason!!

  103. Mike says:

    What are the odds that this incident at Westminster will be down to a Mad Scot Nat extremist unknowingly put up to it by MI5?

    Ive actually been expecting some kind of terrorist related incident to occur timed to coincide with the debates and designed to put Scottish Independence in a bad light.

    You cant put it past them.

  104. Arbroath1320 says:

    Interesting that everyone saying Holyrood is doing business as usual. Funny that. You all obviously did not get the memo from SKY News then … business has been suspended. 😉

    Should anyone think about watching/listening to SKY News I have some goos news. For everyone who was concerned about the whereabouts of Kay “I’ll keep quiet because there is a helicopter taking off and they can be quite noisy” Burley I can confirm that she has surfaced at the South Side of Westminster Bridge. 😀

  105. gordoz says:

    Indy debate stopped – political opportunism ?

    Can’t see why it was stopped. Seriously its miles way – was there a threat at entrance to Holyrood ???

    This is important to Scotland. Can’t agree with that position.

    Something stinks.

  106. TheStrach says:

    RT is reporting that the Westminster incident comes exactly a year after the Brussels bombings.

    I used to cross that bridge every day on my way home from work and it is always packed with tourists. Hopefully people have not been injured too badly but it doesn’t look good.

    Security around the Palace of Westminster is always very tight and it looks like the crash barriers did what they were intended to do – stop anyone getting into Westminster. However, someone did get in, probably on foot as the gates at the front are open to allow cars in and out. However, there are always armed police around in force and reports indicate they shot the intruder, but not before a policeman was stabbed.

    Best wishes to all who have been caught up in this incident and I hope my ex work colleagues are all safe and well.

  107. TheStrach says:

    Guys, I think we need to put a lid on the conspiracy theories. We don’t know exactly what has happened and who carried it out.

    Given the attack on Westminster it is only prudent that the Holyrood debate should be adjourned. We’ve plenty of time to take that forward.

  108. Dr Jim says:

    Westminster and Holyrood Labour Tories and Lieboral Dismalcrats informing us that
    Terrorism works and they will give in to it

    Now there’s a message lots of people will be delighted with

  109. K.A.Mylchreest says:

    So Labour are counting on Dugdale, and Dugdale is counting on … her fingers?

    No, I’m sorry, it’s a dirty job but somebody has to do it, a case of “Buggin’s turn” I reckon.

    Let us hope that in the New Scotland we can be charitable towards those less fortunate than ourselves.

  110. Roboscot says:

    Well at least suspending Holyrood means they can’t be accused of carrying on while Westminster is ‘under attack’. Knowing how the UK media work that’snot a bad thing.

  111. gordoz says:

    Ok since those moaning (repeatedly), that wanted this disrupted / halted etc got there way, then when it resumes can we please ensure it should go straight to a vote.

    Cant put up with any more of this meaningless verbose unionist posturing.

    Sad as it is for those affected by the regrettable incident in London, lets remember it was in ‘London’ and along way away from Holyrood business

    Totally needless stoppage regarding important business.

  112. Brian McHugh says:

    Mike @ 4:03… They are sneakier than that… My prefdiction is Irish. Just a hunch.

  113. Brian McHugh says:

    Mike @ 4:03… They are sneakier than that… My prediction is Irish. Just a hunch.

  114. Coolheads Prevail says:

    Heart goes out to everyone affected at Westminster.
    And as for those responsible and those who put them up to it: I hope the authorities hunt you to the ends of the earth, and drag you before a court to answer for what you’ve done.

  115. Brian Powell says:

    Welsh Assembly still in session.

    The attackers didn’t get inside the Parliamnet so it is the policemen and innocent passersby that are the concern.

    Hovever MPs are tweeting furiously about where they are and in which room they are in. If the attack had been inside that would be extremely stupid.

  116. Bob Mack says:

    One man apparently manages to shut down the democracy of Westminster Holyrood and the Welsh assembly which was exactly his intention in the first place.

    Terrorist wins. He has singlehandedly shut down the governance of these islands.

    Have we become so afraid?

  117. joannie says:

    Today is the first anniversary of the terrorist attack in Brussels which killed 32 people. I’d say this is ISIS’s way of celebrating it.

  118. t42 says:

    Roboscot says:
    22 March, 2017 at 4:14 pm
    Well at least suspending Holyrood means they can’t be accused of carrying on while Westminster is ‘under attack’. Knowing how the UK media work that’snot a bad thing.

    within seconds the mirror had a smear piece out(now altered to reflect the suspension):

  119. Tinto Chiel says:

    Vestas: re Ian Hislop and Private Eye.

    I stopped buying the publication a long time ago because of its inaccurate and sneering comments about Scots and Scotland.

    When I used to watch HIGNFY, I was particularly pleased when Merton reminded Hislop one night that he was Welsh. Poor wee Ian looked very unhappy. Must be an insult in England.

    News just in: as I type I’m listening to Pravsasound4 and The Media Show, I think. Anyway, in case you’re worried, the nice lady is telling us that the BBC puts impartiality at the heart of its political coverage.

    Somehow, words simply lose their meaning at times like this.

  120. Ken500 says:

    Last year some folk were in London on a sports trip. Stayed in accommodation with a view over Westminster Bridge. The Bridge was shut off. Police cars and ambulances with flashing lights standing by at night. Boats hovering in the Thames. St Thomas’s Hospital is nearby Across the Bridge at the other side. They thought it might be something to do with an emergency.

    Looked up twitter and a person was standing on the Bridge threatening to jump off. Commit suicide? They eventually did jump off. Died? There was reports they were trawling the river for a body. A person with mental health problems. Homeless? Seemingly it is a frequent occurrence. Homeless people sleep under the Bridges. Vulnerable people can be confused and do not know where to get help. Or if help is available.

    The guy that killed Jo Cox had mental health problems. The Council were going to evict him from his home where he had lived for 30? years. Previously with his mother who had died. She had cared for him. The ‘bedroom tax’?

  121. gus1940 says:

    Yon Cole-Hamilton is an arrogant pompous self-important little prick.

  122. Mike says:

    Well at least we’ll have a new theme tomorrow.

    We cant be Independent because its unsafe.

    Too wee Too poor and Too stupid to prevent terrorism.

  123. Robert Peffers says:

    @Vestas says: 22 March, 2017 at 12:38 pm:

    “She’s definitely got worse since she went to the USA for her brainwashing course last year. No doubt at all.”

    Naw! Couldn’t have been the USAsian Brainwashing at fault.

    The USAsians are very thorough with the brainwashing. They are super-efficient at the brain rinsing too.

    Mind you it could be the result of the spin drying cycle and final tumble dry that had something to do with it.

  124. Fireproofjim says:

    Mike and Brian McHugh
    Shut up about stupid conspiracy theories. Are you completely paranoid? Wait for some clarity before making up daft theories.
    Sometimes wicked things are done by wicked people.

  125. Meindevon says:

    Terrible news from London. I was there this morning and only decided to leave just after lunch due to the pouring rain. No doubt some poor, innocent people and tourists will be caught up in the mess that is now our world. Sad.

  126. Vestas says:

    @Robert Peffers 4:54 pm :

    “Mind you it could be the result of the spin drying cycle and final tumble dry that had something to do with it.”

    That always causes a build up of fluff 🙂

  127. Mike says:

    Its a bit weird that nobody in the media are reporting any details about the attacker.

    Why aren’t they telling us if he’s foreign or home grown? Islamic or not?

    They must know the basics about him by now. Young Old middle aged motivation? Anything?

    Usually we get something about the attacker at this stage.

  128. Mike says:


    Speculation is all we have as the media is being a bit unusually circumspect in reporting any details about the attacker.

  129. Mike says:

    Of course it could be a ploy to get the MPs and Lords out of the safe and secure Parliament into the open as a large body of targets?

  130. Luigi says:

    The presiding officer was correct to postpone the debate.
    People have died. Let’s show some respect.

  131. Cadogan Enright says:

    Video from Alex Salmond – A light in the Darkness

  132. liz says:

    What happened in WM is a tragedy for the people injured but twitter is going mental just now blaming the SNP for not closing after the incident.
    Welsh Ass did close but later

    That brainless bitch Lennon stirring it up saying SNP groaned when Holyrood suspended.
    This of course encouraged loads of complaints about Nicola. saying hope the newspapers have it in for her tomorrow, she’s anti-English blah,blah,blah,

    If she’s making that up, she should be suspended herself

  133. Robert Graham says:

    Aye well the English parliament shuts early for the day and that stops business 400 miles away ok .
    A piece earlier in the thread by Caltonjack got me wondering i am sure i have seen it somewhere before on wings , Just exactly how many tories have been elected by voters and not placements by the way of the list system , I know Fraser-Carlaw_Tomkins were never actually voted for by the public , but anyone know how many of the others sneaked in the back door ? just as a matter of interest .

  134. Ken500 says:

    Twitter is taking longer to load. Loads on twitter.

    The attacker has been show on a stretcher getting medical attention. With a medical mask on his face. Oxtgen. Asian appearance. 40ish. White open shirt. Brown jacket, grey trousers and black shoes on. He has died.

  135. Arbroath1320 says:

    Glad to hear you’re safe Meindevon.

    Unfortunately during the day Westminster Bridge is pretty busy … all those furriners taking photos and stuff I believe. Sad to hear about the injuries and allegedly two deaths. One person is being reported as being pulled from the river Thames alive.

    If it is possible for there to be a good bit of news about this incident it is that there is a hospital almost next door to WM, just across the Thames and Scotland Yard HQ is also within 5 minutes of WM.

    Our thoughts must surely go out to everyone directly and indirectly affected by this incident.

  136. Brian Powell says:

    Robert Graham

    23 Tories are List MSPs.

  137. Brian McHugh says:

    Fireplacejim, ok. I’ll hold off with the speculation. You cant blame anyone for speculating though. There seems to be a lack of info like Mike said. They knew who did 9/11 in a shorter time. There is also precedent. Just search on Youtube for ‘Panorama Britains Secret Terror Deals’

  138. Mike says:

    Scottish witness being interviewed via an interpreter.

  139. Famous15 says:

    Counter terrorism 101. Never give in to the terrorist and always minimise the effect on society.

    The one detail I share with Maggie Thatcher. Too much terror being reported and thus validating the actions of this loony. Calm down and sustain as much normality as possible.

  140. Undeadshuan says:

    This has been a terrible incident with several people seriously injured.

    Mike and brian, show respect and stop with the tinfoil hat conspiracy.

  141. manandboy says:

    Approximately 2174 people in the UK die every day from coronary heart disease, stroke and cancer alone. That’s 90 people every hour. No parliament in the UK AFAIK has ever been suspended due to their deaths.

    To adjourn parliamentary business at Holyrood out of respect for those who died in today’s incident in London, while ignoring the 90 who also died around the same time around the UK, is bordering on the bizarre .

    Was business at Westminster suspended over the bin lorry deaths in George Square?

  142. Ken500 says:

    If it was FPTP in Scottish Parliament. Possible figures? Opposition would have had 14 seats . SNP
    Would have the rest? Total of 129 seats? Less 14 = 115. Take away number SNP has now. Those left be roughly will be number of opposition list seats. Less Davidson and Harvie – 2. They were elected?

    Or just look up the Scottish Gov website.

  143. Ken500 says:

    It will just be a technicality. To reconvene and vote. Take less than an hour. Tomorrow? Re IndyRef2.

  144. shiregirl says:

    liz says:
    22 March, 2017 at 5:16 pm

    That brainless bitch Lennon stirring it up saying SNP groaned when Holyrood suspended.
    This of course encouraged loads of complaints about Nicola. saying hope the newspapers have it in for her tomorrow, she’s anti-English blah,blah,blah,

    Yes. Never one to miss an opportunity to have a go. SNP bad, etc,etc etc.

  145. Iain Rough says:

    Quite right that Scottish Parliament suspended. MSM would have gone off the scale if they hadn’t.

  146. Capella says:

    RT has live report from London:

  147. Ken500 says:

    Witness skills failing. The attacker did not have on a white shirt or a brown jacket. Black open shirt, dark trousers and no shoes on. On a stretcher getting attention. It might not even be the attscker but a passer by.

  148. Hamish100 says:

    Maybe best just to wait and see what is happening than guessing. Sad for those involved and the families now bereaved.

  149. Conan the Librarian says:

    A serious incident quite near the Westminster parliament stops one of the most important debates that Holyrood has ever had.


    There is always tomorrow.

    Mind you, 7/7 didn’t stop the Westminster parliament in its tracks, but then there weren’t MPs cowering in well protected rooms…

  150. Isobel Wilson says:

    RT reporters just said Scotland might have to think again about Indy as we might not e able to defend ourselves from terrorist attacks ffs!

  151. mike d says:

    At it already. News report asking if Scotland can protect itself After today’s events. These scum will make political capital out of anything or anyone.

  152. Conan the Librarian says:

    Or being “evacuated” in silver Jaguars.

  153. Robert Graham says:

    Brian @ 5.20 thanks for the Imfo wasnt sure of the total i knew there were more than the 3 stooges i mentioned Tomkins-Fraser_Carlaw .so much noise and table thumping from people who really shouldn’t be there .The unelected .

  154. Bob Mack says:

    Scotland won’t be able to defend itself against terrorist attacks ?

    John Smeaton !!!!!!! Armed only with two fists and two feet and a head.

  155. manandboy says:

    It’s as if the UK has become one huge psychiatric ward, in which everyone has an equal say. But when it is put to a vote, the patients, being in the majority, prevail.

    This is what Ruth Davidson calls a ‘mandate’.

  156. shiregirl says:

    Kay Burley on Sky News

    “there has been a terrorist attack on the mother of all Parliaments”

    She actually just said that a minute ago.

    TV is going off.

  157. Inbhir Anainn says:

    The Presiding Officer will convene a meeting of Parliamentary Business Managers in the Scottish Parliament tomorrow to consider rescheduling this afternoon’s debate.

  158. Brian McHugh says:

    Considering the police have said they do not have enough information, both the police and media seem pretty certain it is terrorism related. Is there not just a teeny possibility that it was just a mentally ill man?

  159. David Smith says:

    Scotland will not be bombing countries for profit. I think that’s a pretty good defence from genuine terrorists.
    Funny how the ‘conspiracy theory’ meme habitually gets trotted out to stifle any critical thinking that may be going on.

    Cui bono..?

  160. heedtracker says:

    From the inventor of BetterTogether. No tragedy cant be used, by schlubs like,

    Blair McDougall Retweeted
    Nick Eardley?Verified account @nickeardleybbc 34m34 minutes ago

    Met: Our strength as a city depends on our ability to stand together

  161. HandandShrimp says:

    No problem with the debate being postponed for a day or two. The vote is a foregone conclusion and the actual referendum will not be for at least 18 months. A couple of days makes no difference. Reschedule it for the 29th and we can have the A50 and the Referendum launched on the same day.

    My only concern is that I don’t like over-reactions to terrorism. The terrorists win if we re-order our lives every time they mount an attack. The more we stay unblinking the less point and less effective their attack. The more we go into over-drive the more attractive a follow up attack is.

    Just my opinion. As I said, it makes no difference to Parliamentary business, that will be done and dusted soon enough.

  162. Clapper57 says:

    To any politician or individual who is twisting today’s events at WM into an attack on SNP , re Holyrood parliament NOT being suspended immediately , then I say it is more THEIR shame that they should, at a time where people have been injured and killed, seek to politicise this tragic event.

    For any decent person , politically engaged or otherwise, I would imagine will find this discourse distasteful and unworthy of consideration. The question is ‘Is the death of innocents an appropriate time to score political points’ ?

    Is this what we have become ? Where Trolls on twitter can abuse tragic events to try and score a political unionist point . If any politician or journalist endorses and reiterates the sickening abuse that is being perpetrated by those who are trying to distort what happened in London and the subsequent reaction at Holyrood into a SNPBAD agenda then THEY truly are the real problem within our society and let it be to their eternal shame for promoting hate over humanity.

    My thoughts and prayers go out to those people and their families who were tragically affected by today’s events….for I am a HUMAN first and foremost and thus react accordingly to such news as occurred today. To the people of London I say be strong and my thoughts are also with you all at a time where you must be so very afraid and in shock . Please be safe and I and others reach out to you all at this awful time.

  163. heedtracker says:


    Today has been the highest threat, with the highest possibility and we’ve been warned over and over by UK security services. Its shocking to think its not happened more often.

  164. Mike says:

    From what little that’s being reported it doesn’t sound like terrorism to me sounds more like a disturbed individual losing his mind.

  165. Camz says:

    Maybe she took the 1,231 days, calculated the working days (879), then took off 6 weeks for seasonal breaks?

    I think we’ll be guessing for more than 847 days at that one.

  166. ephemeraldeception says:

    2 perspectives:

    A lone chaotic terrorist, outside Westminster responsible for the murder of some innocent people but dealt with quickly by the force of law.

    Many organised terrorists, inside Westminster, responsible for the deaths of thousands of men, woman and children protected by the force of law and not held to account.

  167. Conan the Librarian says:

    Torcuil Crichton under lock down.

    SNP bad, eventually.

  168. Brian McHugh says:

    I remember when the News used to report what they knew (facts)… Now, if the police state that they are treating it as (read treating it as if it is) a terrorist attack, the BBC etc start repeating it as actual fact.

  169. Conan the Librarian says:

    BBC shortbread, looking for quotes in Westminster doesn’t actually get any Scots MPs.

    There are quite a lot.

  170. Liam says:


    Well said.

  171. Robert Peffers says:

    @Luigi says: 22 March, 2017 at 5:12 pm:

    “The presiding officer was correct to postpone the debate.
    People have died. Let’s show some respect.”

    Do you mean we should show some respect for the dead like how Westminster does for the many deaths they have been directly responsible for? In every Scottish Winter the death rate among the most vulnerable people in Scotland sharply rises and is identified by coroners as being related to cold conditions.

    Then there is the high death rate among, mainly dusky skinned Middle Eastern poor people as a result of the bombs that the UK either drops or have provided for others to drop. Did you mean that kind of respect for the dear, Luigi?

  172. joannie says:

    As per Channel 4 news, it was Abu Izzadeen. Already well known to the police as an extremist and prevented from leaving the country last year.

  173. Tinto Chiel says:

    Very sad events today.

    Kay Burley’s “mother of all parliaments” is strange, even for her, even for Sky.

    Is the oldest not the Icelandic and then the Manx?

    Alternative facts?

  174. Robert Peffers says:

    Sheesh! I always turn off the text predictor in Windows 10 and every time I get a cumulative update the damned thing turns itself back on again. This time it has changed the word, “dead”, into, “Dear”.

    You would think by this time Microsoft would know it is a flawed concept. A spell check is more than good enough but even that is flawed.

  175. Brian McHugh says:

    Joannie, not according to Andrew Neil. Abu Izzadeen is still in jail.

  176. Mike says:

    The media and Government are still talking in terms of definitive terrorism but as yet no details of the attacker.

    It still looks like an individual acting on his own attacking armed police officers with a knife.

    This has all the hallmarks of a mentally ill disturbed person not a determined terrorist with an agenda.

    I’m starting to think we are being cynically manipulated by the establishment trying to increase our fear and wariness levels in order to bring in even more stringent anti terror legislation and restrictions.

    This kind of follows on from the increased airport security with regards to laptops and electronic devices.

  177. crazycat says:

    @ Robert Graham

    Jackson Carlaw was elected for Eastwood last year, having previously been a list MSP. (The defeated incumbent got in on the list and is now Presiding Officer, alas.)

  178. Dr Jim says:

    In this modern era of social media when something unpleasant happens no matter where it is or who it happens too a code of conduct has embedded itself into the social psyche of expressing well considered amounts of respectful grief in order to preserve onself from an onslaught of abuse from the people expressing the most respectful grief, and in a more public way than anyone else and more quickly in order to avoid the abuse for not responding quickly enough from the most quickest of responders

    Events themselves are now being diminished by the commentariats desires to comment on the events in ways which elevate themselves above the actual events

    In short whatever the event, if you don’t get “Boy I feel really bad” out quickly enough and heartfelt sounding enough you’re practically a criminal and are bound to be attacked by the nice people

    It’s a strange world the world of social media

    Please don’t attack me

  179. heedtracker says:

    Jon Snow, C4 teatime news, today’s terror attack has caused Nic Sturgeon’s “day of defiance against Westminster” to be postponed.

    Can they get any dirtier, UKOK hackdom? Sure.

  180. joannie says:

    @Brian McHugh – Channel 4 news saying the same thing now, Izzadeen’s still in prison.

  181. Brian McHugh says:

    I see that Joannie. Wow. So much for all the anti-terror intel and Cobra meetings blah blah. They couldn’t even stop a guy that they knew about and had in jail.

  182. Mike says:

    Jesus Christ BBC now trying to link the attack to ISIS without a shred of evidence or even thin threads to connect the 2.
    They cant do jack shit without pushing misinformation.

    Some news broadcaster.

  183. Robert Graham says:

    OH f/k STV really taking the piss now an Enguland friendly aye thats Number one on my list tonight , get ready for the Dam busters tune before kick off .

  184. Meindevon says:

    Thanks Arbroath.

    I worked in London at the height of the IRA bombings. I missed Hyde Park bomb by half an hour, remember a few evacuations for suspect packages, and was ‘locked down’ myself in a place of work due to a suspected bomb in Garrards on Regent St. It was scary times looking back.

    It made me look back and look up terrorist bombings in London on google and I was really shocked to see just how many there were in the eighties and nineties. Dozens. I’m sure we have all forgotten too easily those times. Without wishing to make light of what happened today, we do not have anything like the attacks we used to have thanks to the ‘troubles’, thank god.

    But we all got on with it. You had to. It was work and I was there because there was not a lot of it at home. (Mind you, I would be terrified if it were my kids there working back then.. I must have put my parents through the mill!)

    The criticism Sturgeon is getting today is disgusting politicising. She would have been damned if she did and damned if she didn’t. Still, it’s always better to be safe rather than sorry.

  185. ScottishPsyche says:

    A lot of scripts for the remainder of the debate being rewritten tonight probably. Who will do a Jamie Greene and make political capital tomorrow? A journo or a Tory?

    So many of Holyrood’s MSPs are on their phones or tablets all the time I’m surprised they can concentrate on anything, so probably they had to stop. Would have liked for a statement of defiance and strength to have been made though.Not surprised by any of the usual dross by the Yoons.

    Angry Salmond continues to act as a cheer leader for the perpetually affronted and sanctimonious.

  186. Valerie says:

    Switched it all off around 5pm, watching Netflix now. Twitter was getting obnoxious.

    I’m so sorry for everyone hurt in today’s incident, and sorry for those families that lost a loved one.

    Remember the rule when talking about the perp. If they have brown skin of any hue, they are a terrorist. If they are white, then it’s a lone wolf.

    Back to Netflix.

  187. stu mac says:

    @Robert Graham

    Actually it was Deutchland, Deutchland uner alles..

  188. stu mac says:

    That should be uber alles

  189. Orri says:

    If this is a terror attack it’s worth bearing in mind that the very standing up to terror reaction might actually be the aim of an attack. Bonus points if you can provoke an over reaction.

  190. Vestas says:

    I was literally around the corner when the (one & only) IRA bomb went off in Leicester. Probably about 150 yards away – police forgot about an alley I came through when they were cordoning off the area. I just turned around & went back the same way when it went off. I don’t remember being particularly bothered about it but I was a lot younger then & you think you’re indestructable for a few years 🙂

    I don’t think people were tougher then, I just think they knew less. Today with the internet and 24/7/365 news channels people are a lot more aware of what’s going on.

  191. Robert Graham says:

    Crazycat thanks for the correction , my heart felt apologies go out to Mr Carlaw , i must have become confused after following his many failed attempts at political office and after reading about his startling business career , i totally misjudged a born winner there , ok one got through it dosnt absolve the ones who are there when they failed , just like darling Ken the presiding officer .Then again the SNP have probably benefited from this daft system in the past that dosnt mean its a good system .

  192. Robert Peffers says:

    @Tinto Chiel says: 22 March, 2017 at 7:27 pm:

    “Kay Burley’s “mother of all parliaments” is strange, even for her, even for Sky.”

    Och! Tinto Chiel, the English always claim to be the originators of everything. They call their Football, “The FA”, and refer to that of Scotland as, “The SFA”. Yet the very first recorded football Club was in Edinburgh and it played its matches on the Meadows.

    The documents that record this are still in existence and they not only record the club meetings and so on but they contain a written set of rules. Not only that but Queens Park set out the written Football Association Rules before those of the English Football Association game.

    Furthermore the so called, “Scotch Professors”, were Scottish players who signed up for English Clubs to teach them how to play, “The Passing Game”. Previously the English game was like a primary school playground game.

    The keeper booted the ball out and the whole lot, both teams, chased after it. Only for someone to boot the ball back up the park and everyone chased after it again.

    If you check out the history of the older and larger English Clubs you will find they were often begun by Scots and their pennants & club coats of arms often include Rampant Lions. For example Chelsea was started by a Scot and features a Blue Lion Rampant. Man United has a red Lion Rampant.

  193. caledonia says:

    maybe the numbers are coming from kez,s magic money tree

  194. Breeks says:

    I’m sounding a bit Lib Dem, but I’m split right down the middle. I totally get people suspending the debate as a mark of respect, but I equally have no axe to grind with people who want to carry on with business and stick two fingers up at the terrorist.

    It was probably a good call, because the media would use it as a smear against us if parliament continued to sit.

    When I think of the families grieving their loss tonight, then yeah. Cease business for the day. But when I think how cowardly it is to drive a vehicle into a crowd of people, then pull out knives to stab people, then I feel angry, and think business as usual is the best way to frustrate and belittle the cowards intentions.

    There’s a sickness to these ISIS people, a mental malfunction. When you see their bestial executions and depraved theatrics, I cannot see what they think they are achieving. Its wrong to call them terrorists, because they’re not terrifying, they are simply disgusting. Disgustists?

    They crave some kind of twisted revulsion which is so obscene, it confounds rational argument. To be crass, I don’t see what it achieves beside easing the conscience of military jet pilots who needn’t lose too much sleep dropping bombs killing sickos. No good will ever come from this. No peace in Heaven or Earth.

  195. crazycat says:

    @ Robert Graham

    It was meant as information rather than correction.
    I believe Mr Carlaw is a used-car salesman. I’m sure there are many decent such, but when I was growing up it was the byword for untrustworthiness.

  196. manandboy says:

    Q. What to do when a lying media, devoted to fake news, actually has to report a real event?

    A. No change required. Do as you’re told. Spin everything to suit the Establishment. Never report the truth – it will be the death of us.

  197. schrodingers cat says:

    interesting article about what happens if treeza refuses the section 30
    “he SNP is not going to sit idly by, if the UK Government position does not concede granting an Section 30 order I highly anticipate that the SNP would collapse the current Holyrood administration and call an election of its own. The election would be fought to seek a mandate.

    Has May considered it may be for more than just a Section 30 agreement? Having put the idea of mandate front and centre, an SNP election campaign on “making the people sovereign” and to “exercise the democratic will of the people” is fairly likely.

    As such, the SNP would undoubtedly seek permission to ask again for Section 30 powers, but it is unlikely to stop there. Its mandate could seek to go further if Section 30 was still denied.

    Permission to unilaterally walk away from the union could be sought under those circumstances, with the caveat that there was an immediate referendum on
    rejoining the UK.”

    would we need to rebrand as NO?

  198. Robert Peffers
    22 March 7.27

    Arsenal was founded by a Fifer from Burntisland. Danskin or something like that.

  199. yesindyref2 says:


    There’s a thread in the Herald about the suspension of Holyrood and some of the comments are so disgusting, making political capital out of a tragedy, it’s unbelievable.

    Today 1 woman was killed, 3 French schoolchildren injured and several other people seriously injured, there was one other unknown person died, as well as the murderer. And one armed policeman described as some “security expert” on ITN as “Mr Plod”, also died of multiple stab wounds, doing his job.

    And I come on here to read the comments and regrettably some posters are just as disgusting as those on the other side have been about the SNP on the Herald, making political capital out this tragedy. Think before you post or please destroy your posting equipment and do something else for your kicks.


  200. Tinto Chiel says:

    Robert Peffers: this may predate your game……

    And Aston Villa and Millwall have lions rampant on their badges because of the Scottish connection, I believe.

    It’s a funny old game, Saint.

  201. Lenny Hartley says:

    Regarding today’s events , condolences to all those affected, re Parliament believe it was suspended as the MsP’s minds were on other things rather than the program of government they were debating.
    During the IRA attracks of the seventies, I was in the RAF, we had quite a few security scares but I can tell you it was more dangerous walking through the streets of Scotland at night than anything I encountered from either the IRA or Riots in Cyprus against the British Military.
    it is not my intention to belittle the hurt and despair visited upon friends and families of those who lost loved ones, just a personal recollection, I remember walking between Glasgow Central and Queen St in Glasgow one night and getting chased by a Clockwork Orange Gang complete with Bowler Hats and Swords, another time on a Saturday Lunchtime I was chased by a gang in Dunfermline, first time I had been there, I never went back. I remember seeing people with axes in their heads at Local Dances on Arran after being attacked by somebody called Mumford from Saltcoats. The sixties and seventies were violent times .

  202. Artyhetty says:

    So, surprise, the yoons are using today’s awful events to again try to stifle any notion of Scotland being independent. Scare the old folks, or anyone with the bias media piping dross into their living rooms. What a disgrace.

    As it is, er, do we feel particularly protected by the UK? I know I don’t, what with wmd’s (not ours) parked a few miles away. So even before we find out who was responsible today, we are told that our, (at present given that we are still shackled to the rUK, non existent army/navy) couldn’t protect us. Hmm, interesting.

  203. Mike says:

    Is nobody else even slightly suspicious about the fact that there are no details released about the attacker yet the entire UK establishment is acting as if we’ve been hit by an avalanche of terrorist activity?

    They haven’t as yet established a motivation for the attack and yet we are told with surety that its terror related with SKY actually directly accusing IS.

    We are witnessing the very epitome of fake news. Nothing but speculative guessing presented as fact.

    In fact it sounds like they WANT it to be terror related they are desperate to present it as terror related.

    I still think this was a single sick individual losing his mind and acting out his own personal agenda. definitely suicide related. This guy had no intention of surviving this day.

    I’m not seeing or hearing any evidence of an actual plan of action. I believe this guy ran over those people on the bridge as a spontaneous act.

    None of it makes sense in terms of planning and agenda.

  204. Mike says:

    What about the car?

    If he used his own vehicle then the Police will have his identity by now if he stole it why hasn’t the media reported the fact that the vehicle is stolen?
    The media could find out who the attacker was through the vehicle or find who the vehicle belongs to.

    What we’re not being told is more telling than what we are being told.
    I get the feeling real news is being repressed.

  205. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ yesindyref2: “Respect…”

    I hope you aren’t tempted to flounce and bounce over those comments.


  206. Capella says:

    It looks like the police have no idea what was going on or who was responsible. Now that the culprit is dead it might be impossible to find out for sure.

    Footage from RT of police clearing the area hastily.

  207. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    A terrible, shocking event. My thoughts and prayers are with those involved.


  208. Dr Jim says:

    It’s bad enough the unelected media trying to run our democracy and politics now we’ve got polling companies trying to set the agenda of our democracy and politics joined up with the Twitterati demanding to be obeyed in our democracy and politics surrounded by greetin faced moaners trying to change the rules of our democracy and politics and if our politicians don’t do as they’re told by all these people everybody’s going in the bloody huff


  209. JLT says:


    Like YesIndyRef2, I would probably stop discussing the events that took place outside Parliament today.

    If you keep on discussing it here, speculating on this, that and everything, then the media will leap on it; especially if people’s speculation get outlandish or accusatory. To do so will only lead the media to tear this site a new one.

    We have to remember that innocent people have been killed or seriously injured; some critical so. I don’t believe this evening should be one of discussing politics. Emotions will be running high, especially down south.

    I would maybe just leave it tonight, and just stay quiet. To be honest, the events of today have no real bearing on Scottish independence or the debate that was taking place in Holyrood.

    Until we know who the perpetrators were, then there is no point in speculating. Leave that to the media.

    Tomorrow, Holyrood will reconvene. Let’s just take it from there.

  210. Robert Graham says:

    Am I being unpatriotic in wishing that the fekn clock would run a bit faster towards the 90 min mark, just saying like,

  211. Lenny Hartley says:

    Brainwashed or deranged individuals of any race or religion don’t need to act with others to carry out acts of Terror. Given that it was the anniversary of the Brussels attacks and going by photos of the alleged attacker it is not difficult to assume that it is somebody who is either a member or a supporter of Daesh. Anybody else who supposes otherwise, I think your heid is full of mince, and my pals think I’m a Conspiricy theorist 🙂

  212. Fireproofjim says:

    Mike. The police are not here to give you a personal minute by minute report. When they get the information they will release it. No doubt they are chasing up every lead.
    You are still pursuing the tinfoil hat conspiracy/cover up theory. It seems you are desperate to find the authorities are to blame.
    I suggest it is either an Al Qaeda follower (There have been plenty of them around Europe recently) or a mentally deranged individual.
    However I am prepared to wait for a few hours to find out.

  213. Mike says:

    Lenny Hartley

    So any terrible act is an act of Terror? Murder? Rape? GBH? ABH?

    The judiciary will charge somebody under the Terrorism act ONLY if that act is classified as an Act of Terror.

    If its a criminal act of murder they wont.

    So how are we supposed to tell the difference?

    We rely on the State to make that classification for us.

    That’s the scary bit. Because the State itself is not adverse to committing its own Acts of Terror in the name of Defence of the Realm.

    Its a mad mad world.

  214. Graeme says:

    Did anyone else hear John Snow say on the news tonight the attack happened when the Scottish parliament were “DEFYING” Westminster ?


  215. Macart says:

    Thoughts go out to the families of the victims of today’s tragedy in London.


    This needs to be read.

  216. Mike says:


    I’m not asking the Police to give me a fucking report I’m expecting the media to report facts not make them up.

    I’m comparing the news release with this incident in comparison to the news release of other terror attacks.

    By now the focus of the media would be on the perpetrator. Telling us every little detail about him or her.

    They have a car. That car is a wealth of news value on its own.
    Whos does it belong to? Was it stolen? Does it belong to the perpetrator?

    The actual reporting is focused on promoting this as a definitive act of terror without a shred of information with regards to motivation or identity of the attacker.
    They are scaring people. Making people more anxious and wary. Not only that they are demonising a specific group of people putting them at risk.

    I’m not accusing anybody of being responsible for the attack I’m pointing out some very suspicious media behaviour and discrepancies in their reporting.

    Its fake news because its being reported factually without evidence in support of it.

    Even if they are right and the attack was a terror attack by IS or inspired by IS they don’t know that! So they shouldn’t be reporting it as FACT!

  217. Robert Graham says:

    I know a lot of you folks are busy with the London events today, I have long since given up believing anything from the British media and especially it’s government, so I wouldn’t get into pointless arguments with well meaning people on here , it’s probably a managed distraction, it’s what governments do in order to hide or push through some agenda they have.
    I also have a lot of sympathy for those and their families who were affected by today’s events wrong time wrong place probably, it’s a very cruel world.

  218. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 8.11

    Like you I’m thinking there’s an argument for not letting as far as possible an attack disrupt the democratic functions.
    To have continued with Holyroods? business would indeed have shown defiance towards those who would commit this atrocity.

    But on balance I think it was right to suspend the debate, mainly because of the content of it.
    Part of this particular debate is asserting that Westminster is not a suitable Seat of Government for Scotland, pointing out it’s failures, and it’s shortcomings, Westminster bad in other words, to do so today would have been so very disrespectful.
    To then go on to vote in some sense to fire/sack it would have been insensitive and I would want Holyrood to behave with a bit more class.

  219. galamcennalath says:

    Keep seeing the word grievance. Politics of grievance, another excuse for grievance, blah blah and usually with SNP in the sentence.

    Scotland has the opportunity to do things better, there’s a job of work to get on with, but there are obstacles to be overcome first – what’s it got to do with grievance?

  220. Liam says:

    My imagination or is the just a little TOO desperate:

  221. Rock says:


    “My only concern is that I don’t like over-reactions to terrorism. The terrorists win if we re-order our lives every time they mount an attack.”

    We should carry on as if nothing had happened?

    Like it or not, we have had no option but to have been forced to drastically re-order our lives in the last 15-20 years.

    Thanks to Westminster’s illegal wars.

  222. Undeadshaun says:

    Mike either stop posting bullshit or think about what you are posting can be turned against us.

    Or are you a member of the 77th brigade???????

  223. Phydaux says:

    I was struck by something that Angus Robertson was reported to have said during the traumatic events in London… that he paid tribute to those seen running towards the injured and fallen.The kindness of strangers, all of whom sprung into action to help their fellow human beings in extremis. A surprising amount of our security and safety comes from the kindness of strangers in times of personal tragedy as well as in normal times.

    So much heat and speculation and no light. Those who seek to make political capital are devoid of decency and humanity and should be named and shamed.

  224. Patience is a Virtue says:

    True Kezia there was a Referendum in 2014 – in which the Labour Party supported and campaigned with the Conservative Party (as did the Liberals), consequently, whereas the Labour Party previously held 38 seats, at the Scottish Parliamentary Election in May 2016 – the Labour Party earned a whopping 24 seats.

    SNP 63 – this is of course a much, much, bigger number than 24 (SNP previously held 64 seats) so presumably many former Labour supporters were ‘not happy’ about many aspects of Labour policy – possibly also including Labour policy on Independence.
    Con. Party 31 (previously 15) – looks like some Labour supporters voting Conservative Kezia; difficult to see any difference between Labour and Conservative policy perhaps(and the same is true today unfortunately, for Labour),

    and Labour, yes Labour, that’s the Labour Party you may recall, voted for the Austerity we currently endure (thanks to Labour (and the Conservatives)).

    This you may have realised (though perhaps not) by now, is why there is now a majority of MSPs representing the Scottish electorate in the Scottish Parliament, supportive of Independence – for which we have much to be thankful for. With your help things I am sure, can only get better.

  225. The Rough Bounds says:

    I don’t believe the police in London are as dopey as a lot of people seem to be suggesting. And I don’t believe the conspiracy nonsense either.

    The police won’t release any facts until they have followed up any leads they have on who that guy was, who were his friends, who were his relatives, etc.

    They will want to have police at all possible locations before they release the culprit’s details to try and stop any other terrorists, assuming that’s what he was, from flying the nest. He may just have been a lone loony. He may not.

  226. Robert Louis says:

    Every time a terrorist incident happens in the UK, Parliaments (in Scotland or England) do not suspend business. In N.Ireland many atrocious events happened, and they barely made the ‘UK’ news, never mind closing parliaments.

    Yet today, because of a terrorist attack in London, proceedings in the Scottish Parliament were suspended. I have no idea why. Did the banks also close, did the UN close, did the EU Parliament suspend business? No. I do not doubt all of those groups would have been as horrified as those in the Scots Parliament, but they did not close to ‘show solidarity’.

    Indeed, if the many years of terrorism in N.Ireland should teach us anything, it is that the more we carry on business as usual, the better. OUR Scots Parliament should set an example.

    Today’s events in London were tragic, and the murder of a police officer, who it seems exhibited great bravery carrying out his duty was especially awful, but we let terrorists win, when we, who are not under attack, wilt under pressure.

    Terrorists aim is to make us ‘suspend normal business’.

    Meanwhile in Mainstream media land, their is a veritable orgy of misinformation and generalised ‘made up stuff’ going on – as usual. Then those self same so-called ‘journalists’ girn and whinge when nobody takes them seriously anymore.

  227. Bob Mack says:

    I have lived long enough to remember many losses of life. Hungerford, Dunblane, IRA bombings, Derek Bird. Denis Nelson, Fred West.
    They all horrify for different reasons, but ultimately for the same reason. Innocents lost their lives.

    Remember them in your thoughts tonight. There but for the grace of God etc etc.
    It does not matter who did it this time or why. What does matter is the loss of life and severe injury, and people’s lives damaged forever.

    There are no winners in these situations. No rationality for such actions. Only losers.

  228. schrodingers cat says:

    just in
    catching up

    a word of advice


  229. Roughian says:

    Am I missing hearing the reports from BBC?

    They go on and on about how secure Parliament is and how this terrible act is a threat to the existence of the place. . How this vehicle got so close to the very very heart of our centre of democracy.

    I’m not hearing much about the 3 members of the public who were killed and the many people seriously injured just walking down the street.

  230. Ghillie says:

    Handandshrimp @6.42 pm and Clapper57 @ 6.45 pm : Both well said.

    My thoughts and prayers go out to those who have been killed and injured in London today, to their loved ones and everyone who helped.

    Peace and love folks, remember that always, peace and love.

  231. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Breaking news from BBC – It was Colonel Mohammed on the bridge with the dagger.

  232. Orri says:

    There’s a high probability that many MSPs know some of the MPs who as far as they knew were in danger from an ongoing attack. Certainly plenty of reasons for them to be unable to concentrate on what they were doing.

    Strategically though the attack will be on all front pages tomorrow with a small summary of Holyrood authorising the S30 application and an excuse to ignore any arguments in support of the decision had the vote been held as planned.

  233. Auld Rock says:

    I steeled myself to watch yesterday and FM was at her usual devastating best, then came Davidson with her ‘Bowler Hat Brigade’ lodge(d) behind her sprouting her usual diatribe of rubbish and lies, next up was Kez and I lost my will to live so I went and mad a cuppa getting back in time for one of Patrick Harvie’s best speeches ever. As expected Wandering Wullie was dreadful.

    As the afternoon progressed I felt that the FM should have presented the motion, heard the amendments then voted – we know the result after-all.

    Auld Rock

  234. Robert Peffers says:

    JLT says: 22 March, 2017 at 9:33 pm:

    “Guys, Like YesIndyRef2, I would probably stop discussing the events that took place outside Parliament today.”

    Oh! Get real!

    There are people dying every minute of every day all over the United Kingdom. Tragically, many of these deaths are avoidable. I highlighted one such fact earlier.

    Due to the direct actions, and also inaction, of unionist governments at Westminster over the past several decades.

    Mainly for no better reason than financial savings in order to finance either tax cuts for the richest 10% of the population or to finance obscene Weapons of Mass Destruction, many people both right here in the united kingdom and abroad are dying, and not just in numbers you could count on one hand but in multiple thousands.

    Disabled people with incurable disabilities forced out to work and dying as a result. Poor people sanctioned for being delayed by a late running bus service and getting so desperate they kill themselves. Old people having died alone with no, “Care in the Community”, provided and only being discovered after months when some neighbour complained about the bad smell.

    Baby deaths in maternity units from the results of hard pressed understaffing unable to cope with government cuts.

    Avoidable deaths in A&E as there is insufficient staff to attend to them. We read, hear or view about these things every single day.

    So, Please, may we have a little perspective?

    As I type this someone somewhere is dying due to the present Tory funding cuts and no one turns a hair. There are little hungry children lying tonight in bed in cold unheated rooms because of Westminster government policy.

    Now here is a stark fact. The very first thing the Tory Government did upon gaining power was to increase the rate of VAT, add more items to the list of things VAT was due on and they cut the top rate of tax.

    FACT :- VAT is an indirect tax and it is a well known economic rule that indirect taxation shifts the main burden of taxation from the richest to the poorest.

    That was bad enough without then cutting the top rates of direct tax for the richest 10%.

    So spare me the fake outrage and consider the real truth – right now, right this very minute – somewhere in the World Her Majesty’s Armed Forces are engaged in deliberately killing innocent people – even if the actual targets are not innocent people.

    Why the hell do you imagine all those foreign human beings are leaving their homes and heading for Europe and a very uncertain hope of NOT BLOODYWELL DYING, and lots of them are dying, just by trying to escape the USA and UK bombs.

    I’m not belittling the tragic deaths of the London incident – all such violent death is tragic – but please – have a little perspective. Did any of the dying babies in understaffed maternity units cause any parliament in the UK to suspend business? I know what I see as the more tragic event.

  235. Robert Peffers says:

    @Orri says: 22 March, 2017 at 10:52 pm:

    “There’s a high probability that many MSPs know some of the MPs who as far as they knew were in danger from an ongoing attack.”

    Balderdash! There is no safer place in the United Kingdom than the inside of the Houses of Parliament.

    It is sealed up tighter than a can of corned beef. There are defences everywhere and it is well manned by armed police. Gates are closed and guarded long before anyone could get near to entry into the building itself.

    There are even concrete blocks set up so that vehicles cannot be driven into the outside walls.

    No one gets in there without a pass. Why do you imagine there were armed police on the scene so quickly?

    Any MP in danger was on the outside of that ring of steel, concrete and armed guards.

  236. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Sorry for my previous post. It wasn’t right for me to say that, and I feel ashamed.

    I should have written ‘Colonel Mustafa’.

  237. Hamish100 says:


    re your response to us all

    nae harm to you but by your comments you are ratcheting up the anxiety bit. Whats your game? You state..

    “Its fake news because its being reported factually without evidence in support of it”
    “news is being repressed..”
    Unless you know all the facts you are spreading gossip. Fake news in other words. Why? Do you wish WoS to be criticized by the numpty brigade?

    Condolences once again to those with sorry hearts this evening.

  238. Ken500 says:

    Ken McIntosh is biased. He favours the unionists at Holyrood. Supposed to be impartial. He was a BBC ‘journalist. He did not want BBC Scotland to have more people speaking speaking with a Scottish accent. Wanted control kept in London. Not with the vocal locals. Cheek doesn’t come into it. Not strong enough voice to control misdemeanours. Treats it as a micky mouse Parliament. A good strong Scottish voice would be better to keep order.

    Teresa May keeps on going on about Westminster being, ‘the oldest Parliament in the world’. It isn’t. Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Arabian/Muslin, Persian, Chinese, Turkish civilisations were much older and had centralised, administration establishment.

    Britain has only been a modern Democracy – one person, one vote (or six votes depending on some PR farce) since 1928. Universal Suffrage. Equal votes. Scotland since Devolution 2000. For a meaningful democracy.

    In England citizens were subjects of the Crown. The ‘divine right to rule’ from God. The Monarch the embodiment of God (good) on earth. In Scotland sovereignty remained with the people. Equal rights. The fourth estate. The Monarch, the Nobles, the Church and the people. Each had representation. The Monarch kept order. The people petitioned the Monarch to make lawful decisions in disputes In Scotland the Monarch toured the Country going from place to place staying at the castles. People came to get legal judgements. The King lived off the land and the people/serfs provided the nourishment. Food, clothes etc. Scotland traded with countries of Europe, especially France. People drank wine as the water could be considered unsafe. Most cities were situated near rivers to get water to survive. The towns were established at crossroads for trade. The markets for barter and exchanging goods Or beside the sea and rivers for fishing..

    In Scotland they paid a tithe to the Church or King. A tenth of their income for local services schooling (monasteries). Only the monks could read and write documents. Often the Church documents. They taught certain others.

    French was the Official language of the Normans (Normandy) Edward the 1st Domain. Also the Scottish Court. The English, Scottish and French ruling families intermarriage as a form of control of the dynasties. Scottish King Alexander III. Died in a storm at Kinghorn. His second wife was French. ‘Maid of Norway’ was the heir. She died at Orkney on the way back to Scotland. Edward the 1, Hammer of the Scots tried to take over Scotland. The Scots revolted.

    Teresa May doesn’t seem to know much accurate, historical facts.

    State control was through the Church for Law and order. People had to be good, as per the code of ten commandments to go to heaven and a glorious after life. If not they went to Hell were burnt and their soul was never at peace. Chinese Emporer, Egyptian Pharaohs were Gods on earth. French ‘Sun King’. Out of touch rulers. People could not look upon the Emporer.

  239. Bob Mack says:

    @Reluctant Nationalist.

    Are you usually a feck wit or is it just a one night only performance ?

  240. Ian McCubbin says:

    Well this has moved from Kez continuing to be the spoilt child she shows day after day.
    She is the best thing Labour has as a spokes person for unionism and hence new better together.
    On the London matter, sympathy to the grieving relatives and shame on those politicians trying to make capital out of the tragedy.

  241. ian m says:

    Tragic and senseless loss of life today!
    A guy in a car with a knife would not be trying to attack members of parliament.He was clearly using an already tried and tested technique which is ploughing into people.
    It was natural to associate the attack with the Parliament buildings but they were never the intended target because the driver went after pedestrians.
    I would give the security forces a pass because they have all kinds of reports and statements to go through.The media want to be seen as in the know and they can not help themselves.

  242. bugsbunny says:

    Vestas @2.02
    Ian Hislop was born in South Wales, a fact that rankles with him to this very day.

  243. ian m says:

    We are frequently exposed to football metaphors so here is another one.
    Closing the parliaments is like kicking the ball out of play when the opposition has a player lying on the turf
    You have stopped your attack for no reason and given up your advantage.Rendering aid to an injured player may take an extra 30 seconds to reach him but rather than a member of the public who has to wait 5- 10 minutes for an ambulance the player has the trainer and team doctor available to him in less than a minute.
    The stoppage of the game is pointless and plays into the hands of the injured players team.
    Do not let terrorist attacks debilitate the function of our various governments. A wee bit of heightened security would be OK but lets not go catatonic

  244. manandboy says:

    In the aftermath of the incident in London in which 4 victims died, one of them a policeman, and around 40 were injured, in a statement from No. 10 Downing St, “The PM insists attempts to undermine British values are ‘doomed to failure'”.
    The perpetrator was shot dead by police.

  245. Brian McHugh says:

    Ian m, how do you know it was a terrorist attack?

    I know the media are jumping to this conclusion en-masse, but how did you rule out just a mentally unstable man? …or a man who had smoked a bowl of crystal meth?

  246. Brian McHugh says:

    Manandboy, I am seriously struggling to understand what it is they are not telling us? If PM May is so certain that terrorism was the motive for the incident; and they have had all the intel from the COBRA meeting, then why do we remain completely devoid of any details about the assailant?

  247. manandboy says:

    Wish I could help you out, Brian, but as you say no details have been issued so far, presumably due to the protocol for such an event.
    Far too many individuals have seemingly just jumped to the conclusion that the guy was a terrorist connected with Daesh. Newsrooms hate a news vacuum and so they make the story up.

  248. ian m says:

    Brian I may be guilty of not having all the facts
    but if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck and looks like a duck then it is a duck.
    I considered your suggestions and their likelyhoods but given what we know, I decided it was a duck

  249. Still Positive says:

    My heartfelt thoughts go out to the family and friends of those killed and injured in London yesterday afternoon.

    As Nicola says, we are with the people of London.

  250. Brian McHugh says:

    Ian, I’m still confused as to how the duck has been ruled out as a Thomas Hamilton or a James Eagan Holmes?

  251. Liz g says:

    A wee reminder to those so inclined.
    Giving Blood can be a way of showing support to the victims of the London attacks.

    Brian McHugh @ 2.40am
    Some early report’s I had heard (RT I think) said that the guy had been reconised and named on social media.
    This was apparently from some photos taken as he was being put into an ambulance, apprantly still alive at that point.
    I suspect that this is the basis of all the speculation.
    And they won’t be upfront about it incase they are wrong about the person photographed.
    I don’t think there’s anything more than the usual makin stuff up as they go along from news channels that are not good at what they do in everything..Not just trying to keep us in their stupit Union.

  252. Undeadshuan says:

    Government report looking at ending pension triple lock in next term and raising pension age.

  253. louis.b.argyll says:

    My condolences to anyone, anywhere, caught up in the disgusting proxy war now being played out across the world.

    Understandable that people are suspicious when facts are held back or distorted.

    But ‘the values our parliament represent’ said the PM..

    Huh? Westminster recently voted to attack Syria despite the fact that the US & RUSSIA already had their bombers in the region.


  254. Ade says:

    Brian McH – well observed.

    Have a read of the case of ‘Alice Wheeldon’ in 1916. She was accused of a ‘terror plot’ to kill the Prime Minuster of the day. The ‘plot’ saturated the news at the time & diverted attention from the Concientious Objections against WW1. Alice was sent to jail.

    Turns out the whole plot was cooked up by the security services.

    Commiserations with any deaths of course, but already a twitter tag of #fightterrortogether is abounding, complete with union jacks.

  255. Brian McHugh says:

    Morning Liz g, they were wrong. The guy The Independent and Channel 4 named is still in jail.

  256. Fred says:

    There’s surely a security issue here, why were there no armed police at the gate. The British media weren’t slow off the mark criticising the French & Belgian security services, what goes round….

  257. JLT says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Oh! Get real!

    There are people dying every minute of every day all over the United Kingdom. Tragically, many of these deaths are avoidable. I highlighted one such fact earlier.

    Robert. I am.

    You give examples, but what we have today is beyond the unusual. It’s not me your having to convince – it’s the soft ‘No’s and soft ‘Yes’s’ – they are the ones looking on. If they see posts which seem to be hard-hearted, insensitive and becoming accusatory, then damage is being done here.

    So if I’m wrong, are Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond, Angus Robertson, Patrick Harvie, et al, who also all expressed sympathy and stopped politics for the day – were they also wrong? Should they also ‘get real’? Should they tell the media to stop bleating about an incident where four people were killed …because after all …more folk were killed yesterday in road crashes, died in operating theatres, killed in combat, etc.

    Robert, sometimes …you need to ease back on the rhetoric. Yesterday was a dark day for people within the British Isles. It was a terrorist attack, and who knows, could be the first of two or three. Simply put, this was beyond the normal day-to-day injustices.

    Like yourself, I don’t like Westminster or its politics, but there are moments where we have to pause – because if we don’t, then to not express any sympathy or pay homage to those who were innocently killed or hurt yesterday, will turn people away if they think this site to be too hard-hearted and controversial.

    Usually, I agree with most of your posts. The one to me yesterday …you were wrong. Last night was a moment of pause out of respect.

  258. Nana says:

    Angus Robertson: “If HoC, EU Parl & 27 member states can have a choice why can’t people of Scotland have a choice over their future
    Video here

    Tom Collins: Last rites for Britain as Theresa May triggers Article 50

  259. Smallaxe says:

    Police say the London attack is connected to international terrorism, and that they fear retaliation against the British Muslim community.They know the attacker and are looking for his associates to question them, which they give as a reason for not naming him.

    peace Always

  260. Nana says:

    Apologies for double post.

  261. Smallaxe says:

    Nana: Good Morning,

    Another wet day.Thank you for your links.Kettle’s on!

    Peace Always

  262. Mike says:


    The difference is I’m not an official media source. I’m not somebody who’s trusted to report news. People reading me can do exactly what you’ve done question it ignore or rubbish it. Its not so easy to do that when the information is coming from sources we look to to provide the information we seek.
    And if these sources are corrupted and are used to deliberately feed us misinformation then they should be openly questioned and challenged.
    And those who do openly challenge and express doubt should not be discouraged from doing so.
    Its healthy when you don’t take everything at face value.

  263. Smallaxe says:


    Needless apology accepted!

    Peace Always

  264. Breeks says:

    I hear where you’re coming from. When Jo Cox was murdered, the story first emerging just didn’t ring true. She, a politican, had intervened in a fight and been killed accidentally. Spidey sense on overload… And it turned out she was targeted in a planned assault with a political agenda. Then the pieces fitted together.

    With Westminster however, I don’t have the same spidey sense tingles. The attack is crude and disgusting, and fits the MO for these cowardly vehicle based attacks. Not releasing the name has legitimate investigation aspects. Say for example the police find somebody who knows who did the attack before the name is released. How do they account for the knowledge?

    My instincts say to me Westminster is what it appears to be.

  265. Mike says:

    I have no trust left in me to take anything the State or the UK media tells me at face value anymore.

    About anything. Why would I?

  266. Vestas says:

    Apparently the attackers name is out there – it was posted on our local rag’s comments pages but was very rapidly deleted.

    The guy is apparently Muslim and lived in Birmingham (where there’s been overnight police raids related to this).

    He was recognised from pictures in the Guardian as he was being taken away on a stretcher.

    NB – that’s my understanding of the situation from what I read on the local rag’s comments.

  267. Mike says:


    It may all very well be as is being stated by the Police but I can no longer find the trust in me to believe it on their word alone.
    It can just as easily be somebody who has been driven to despair and madness through poverty and deprivation or somebody who has lost somebody and blames the Government or the State or the establishment.
    It could be somebody with a mental disorder who flipped.
    But I wouldn’t put it past the UK establishment to try to use something of this nature to ramp up their anti terror rhetoric and use it as an excuse to erode more of our freedoms.
    Wont surprise me to see another proposal brought to Parliament to introduce ID cards again.

    The Police have stated they’ve made several more arrests and in the next breath said they believed the attacker was working alone and believed without stating why they believed the guy was inspired by International Terrorism.

    What the fuck does that even mean?

    Your spidey sense may not be tingling but mine is. It has been since the systematic attacks across Europe which seems to benefit nobody but the hard right.

    Like I said its actually healthy to doubt and question. Lets stop listening to the media and the State as a default position until they provide us with real evidence and facts.

  268. Mike says:


    Channel 4 named a known Muslim terror suspect who is presently in prison.

    Quick to jump on the Islamic terror angle without proof or verification of any kind.

    See where I’m coming from?

  269. Nana says:

    Good morning Smallaxe

    Damp day here as well, hopefully brighten up later.

  270. starlaw says:

    Have no trust in the Police reports either. Why is Dunblane still under the Official Secrets Act.
    Wonder what is being slipped into law under cover of this attack. Remember the Tory saying .. today is a good day for bad news.

  271. Macart says:

    Basically agree with the Rev on this one folks. Avoid news broadcasts and printed media today.

    You’ll be far happier for it.

    I’ve just done a cursory dip around the newstands and airwaves and some of the coverage… Let’s just say it’s not the most respectful or appropriate and leave it at that.

    IMO we should let people grieve and let the police do their job.

  272. ScotsRenewables says:

    Is Donalda having an effect on the BBC after all?

    Times, Express et al full of nonsense this morning about Roseanna Cunninghame’s finger-jabbing ‘meltdown’ yesterday when Holyrood was suspended – with no mention of Mike Rumbles’ objection to the suspension of proceedings.

    BBC report:

    However, some politicians were unhappy about the decision to suspend the debate.
    Liberal Democrat MSP Mike Rumbles was among those to argue it was a “mistake”, telling BBC Scotland that had huge sympathy for those affected by the attack, but that: “We should not be giving in to terrorism, and I believe we’ve done that”.
    Environment Secretary Roseanna Cunningham was also unhappy with the decision – but was later said to agree entirely after learning the full details of the London attack.

    No attempt there to jump on the SNPBaaadwagon . . . let’s hope it’s the start of a trend.

  273. Smallaxe says:

    Mike says:

    “But I wouldn’t put it past the UK establishment to try to use something of this nature to ramp up their anti-terror rhetoric and use it as an excuse to erode more of our freedoms.”

    I will be amazed if they don’t do just that and more, whatever the case may be.

    Peace Always

  274. ronnie anderson says:

    @ JTL
    @ Robert Peffers. last night I deleted many posts that by design were there to invite other to post adverse comments . I blocked the person that started it a Carol Murphy ie false flag comment.

    Robert I skimmed over you post of yesterday , what you forgot we have 56 MPs & their staffers at Westminster ( who are heavily protected ) but since the attack started on Westminster bridge it was Innocent People suffered death & injuries .

    Lost in the inevitable post mortem of this attack will be British Foregien Policy & the Blair / Bush illigalities . Those are the real culprits of these attacks . the Farce of the Police demonstration on the Thames on Sunday should ring alarm bells.

  275. does anyone know what is happening at Holyrood,are they continuing the debate today and having a vote?

  276. Mike says:

    None of this gels.

    We’re told the Police have arrested another 7 suspects who they managed to find within hours of the attack based on a car hire.

    We’re supposed to believe a terror cell of 8 people planned an attack where only 1 of them participated with a hired car that could be used to identify the attacker and link him directly to the rest of the cell where they could all be scooped up without effort.

    This they tell us is all “INSPIRED” by International Terrorism not directly linked or even indirectly linked but “INSPIRED”.
    They got this idea from the dead “Terrorist”.

    A Terror cell of 8 people where only 1 of them armed with a knife and a hired car was going to what? Attack the Westminster Parliament.

    Seriously? An 8 man terror cell planned to attack the Westminster Parliament with only 1 of them armed with a knife and a hired car which allowed the Police to link the attack with Birmingham and known associates.

    Aye I’m buying it.

  277. Nana says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    I saw a tweet yesterday re the postponement of the debate and vote. can’t recall exactly what was said but I think it has yet to be decided when the debate will continue.

  278. Mike says:

    The NHS has all but collapsed in England.
    The Education system has all but collapsed in England.
    We are diving headfirst into a Brexit from the EU with all the predicted consequences.
    The Tory party is under Police investigation for election fraud.
    There is another Indy ref coming from Scotland.
    The UK Government is in turmoil and is dragging the whole of the UK over a cliff.

    But look over there a squirrel in the shape of an “Internationally Inspired” terror attack.

    Queue the systematic media circus of diversion.
    Queue the rhetoric calling on us to all come together and work in cooperation to defeat this evil no not that evil that other evil way way over there. Nothing to see here. Its all over there.

  279. Gerry says:

    Looked at many historical “false flag” incidents.
    This is not one.
    Sad indictment on our political leaders when the default question we find ourselves asking when something like this happens is “who is really behind it”.
    Truth is, political hay will be made and points will be scored on the back of this tragedy, which is indicative of how little a shit WM politicians really give, and how inferior they have come to look on their employers (the population) to be.

  280. @Nana


    was forgetting about FMQ`s.

  281. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Scot Finlayson There is a meeting of the Parliamentary Business managers this morning but with the announcement that Westminster will resume business as usual today, there will be no issues with Holyrood resuming business .

  282. Stoker says:

    I’m champing at the bit this morning, i can post links again, but my joy will be short lived. After i post a comment to Tam Jardine later on i will be disappearing out of circulation again for a week or two then hopefully, all going well, the revamped bunker will be fully operational again.
    To Ruby (i think?):

    I think it was you who posted a comment several weeks ago about wanting the Rev to add a likes/dislikes facility to the comments on the btl threads. I couldn’t respond at the time but my position is a big no-no for several reasons, not least of all because i believe that sort of facility has a tendency to destroy threads and the flow of conversation/debate etc. I came across this article yesterday and thought of you, it explains some of the reasons why we shouldn’t have a likes/dislikes button. Apologies if i’ve got my wires crossed and it’s not you.
    The Like Button Ruined The Internet

    RE: The “Debate” being suspended yesterday. Very tough call, Holyrood was damned if it didn’t and damned if it did. Holyrood will always be put in a no win situation by a corrupt and discredited Unionist media. Don’t buy into their lies and spin.

  283. @Nana

    you would think there would be a statement from ScotGov,

    it is after all the most important debate and vote ever held in our Parliament,

    some sort of clarity is needed.

  284. manandboy says:

    PROTECTING BRITISH VALUES in London’s money laundering industry.

    Mindful of all those in London most affected by yesterday’s incident, it has been reported by RT that the Russian Embassy in London has published the names of 50 Russians living in London who are wanted by Russian police.
    Requests have been made to the Home Secretary, past and present, for the extradition of these individuals who are suspected of fraud on a large scale. All such requests have been turned down.

    Item removed from RT page afaik – still trying to find it but the link below works.

  285. Mike says:

    @Sensible Dave

    “I believe Ms Sturgeon wants to choose the very moment when the UK will be attempting to finalise the most important negotiations for the UK in recent history.”

    No like me you believe the Tory party will be attempting to finalise the most important negotiations for the Tory party in recent history.

    Whatever “deal” the Tories intend to negotiate it wont be a deal for the UK it will be a deal for the Tory party and its supporters.

    So I don’t have a problem if the Scottish Government disrupts it in any way motivated by their desire to get the best DEAL for Scotland.

    Why would you?

  286. Nana says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    This tweet was the one I saw yesterday afternoon.

  287. G H Graham says:

    According to Fox News media sources, the parliament of England was attacked by Muslamic Terroristical Fundamentalisms.

  288. manandboy says:

    While Holyrood was suspended out of respect for the dead and injured, Westminster was suspended so as to secure the safety of all those inside as a precaution. Respect had little to do with it.

    The same people whose safety was paramount yesterday, voted to go to war against Iraq. As a result, over 500,000 women and children were killed by coalition forces. But this a forbidden subject in today’s UK. Apparently.

  289. Nana says:

    @Macart 8.11am

    From an earlier look, I would advocate avoiding twitter as well.

  290. HandandShrimp says:

    I was disappointed at May’s “they hate us coz freedumbz” This is the drivel that Bush used to justify his wars.

    The attacks are designed to cause civil strife between Muslims and Western societies, further radicalising alienated Muslim youth and strengthening the position of the fundamentalists. This a political war and there is a clear aim and goal. It is not hate for hate’s sake. I don’t think the goal will be achieved but we need to put a lid on hate preachers on all sides to make sure it has as little chance of success as possible.

    Bush was Bush and one wouldn’t necessarily expect nuance from him…although Trump makes him look like John Paul Satre. I did expect more from May though. Re-heats from 15 years ago show that absolutely nothing has been learned politically.

  291. sensibledave says:

    Mike 8.51

    …. following your missives yesterday, I see little point in engaging in a debate with you Mike. To debate, there has to be some acceptance that the person one is communicating is of sound mind, has similar basic human values and is capable of rational thought. Political differences are the very soul of democracy. Its healthy and benefits human kind. Paranoid delusion is, at best, a hindrance to the democratic process.

  292. Phydaux says:

    March for Europe, hosted by Young European Movement Edinburgh, organised for this Saturday 25th March… meet at 1pm at Waterloo Place and progress to Scottish Parliament, where there will be various speakers.

    Saturday 25th March is the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome.

  293. Clydebuilt says:

    O / T Last night Scotland’s international football team played Canada ( a dull 1:1 draw). STV aired a friendly between England and Georgia. Our state broadcaster covered the Scotland game on Radio. Football is Scotland’s national sport.
    Does this happen in Wales or Northern Ireland. Does this happen in any other Country.
    What opportunities are there for young Scots to see their nation playing its national sport, if their parents do not have the correct sports package, or any sports package. What are the implications of this for our nation and our game.

  294. HandandShrimp says:

    It is probably wise to avoid news media on the attacks and the fetid warblings of Britain First types but it would be wise to keep an eye on other news.

    The Cridland report on pensions for instance. I would imagine Gordon Brown is less than happy to see another vow potentially go up in smoke. Cridland recommends an earlier date for pension age rises and for the age to go up to 70 with the much vaunted triple lock ditched.

  295. Macart says:


    It’s going to be bad Nana. Worse than toxic.

    Steer well clear for the next couple of days.

  296. galamcennalath says:

    Mike says:

    Whatever “deal” the Tories intend to negotiate it wont be a deal for the UK it will be a deal for the Tory party and its supporters.

    Precisely! Everything about Brexit, from start to finish, has been about the Tories and no one else.

    And to be specific about Scotland, Wales and NI. They are part of the UK and by excluding them from the process it shows clearly that the Tories aren’t interested in views beyond their core support.

  297. orri says:

    There are 3 options available to May regarding a referendum.

    1) To hold it as soon as possible in order to clear the decks.
    2) Hold it when the proposed deal between the rEU and UK is known.
    3) Ensure it never happens.

    The last option is one that anyone negotiating with the UK will need proof of before engaging in a dialogue. The first is pointless unless the 3rd is guaranteed. The 2nd is something that the rEU might insist the UK agrees to as any deal involving Scotland’s assets will be meaningless if Scotland’s electorate disagrees to such an extent that independence removes the rUK’s rights to include them in any agreement with a 3rd party.

    The 2nd timing option might make far more sense if Westminster involved Holyrood in meaningful dialogue. As it doesn’t seem so inclined then the EU might be forgiven for treating any deal involving Scotland with a sack of salt.

  298. Thepnr says:

    Jamie Ross believes the Holyrood vote will be held over until next Tuesday.

  299. HandandShrimp says:

    I would hold the vote next Wednesday around the same time May is launching A50. 🙂

  300. Mike says:

    @Sensible Dave

    ” following your missives yesterday, I see little point in engaging in a debate with you Mike. To debate, there has to be some acceptance that the person one is communicating is of sound mind, has similar basic human values and is capable of rational thought. Political differences are the very soul of democracy. Its healthy and benefits human kind. Paranoid delusion is, at best, a hindrance to the democratic process.”

    In other words I’m unable to refute your incisive arguments and statements of fact so I’m going to make pathetic excuses and gibber more pish in a vain hope to avoid your instinctive genius.

    The fact remains there is no UK trying to get a deal with the EU there is ONLY a Tory party looking to get a deal for itself and those who support it.
    That’s a fact even a gibbering wee arse like you cant spin convincingly.

  301. manandboy says:

    It looks like a period of 1 minute’s silence will be observed in UK Government offices today.

  302. Marie Clark says:

    Thepnr @ 9.21. Aye Alex, I saw that tweet from Jamie Ross, Methinks that the Maybot might not be too happy about that one.

    There’s a wee bit of me agrees with HandandShrimp, hold it on Wednesday as she signs A50.

    The smelly stuff will hit the fan.

  303. manandboy says:

    The 60th Anniversary of the EU will be celebrated by the Scottish Parliament – but not by the other parliaments.

  304. Thepnr says:

    @Marie Clark

    Might be better if Alex Salmond walks across the floor of the House on Wednesday and hands May the letter from Nicola Sturgeon right after she announces Article 50. 🙂

  305. HandandShrimp says:

    Next Tuesday it is.

    The day before A50 is OK. I have no gripe with that. Will give the talking heads two things to talk about on Wednesday

  306. McBoxheid says:


    I have just had an interesting conversation on facebook with a EU national friend of mine that lives in England. She works for the police. Apparently she is not allowed friends who have a political opinion.

    Their reply to my question about why she chose her avatar (a Union Jack with a thin blue line through the middle) was;

    “I work for the police. I can not favour any political views, join animal rights or anything like that. If you wish to remain my friend on Facebook please do not make any comments like you have.”

    So apparently, “Friends” on Facebook of people working for the police in England, are not allowed to express their political opinion or have a political discussion with anyone who disagrees with the Tory Government in case it endangers their jobs.

    My comment?
    “Do you think that Scotland is a country, or just a region of Britain?”

    This is obviously too political for friends of people that have a civilian job working for the police in England.

  307. Smallaxe says:

    Although the prime target of the bomb that ripped through the Grand Hotel in Brighton during the Conservative Party conference survived, five others were killed and more than 30 were injured, many of them maimed for life.

    Margaret Thatcher’s reaction was characteristically defiant. Addressing the conference just hours after the IRA attack, she told them: “All attempts to destroy democracy by terrorism will fail.”

    She did not stop to show any respect to anyone!

    Peace Always

  308. Les Wilson says:

    Mayhem saying this will not thwart our precious democracy(words to that effect)
    Had to smile,what she really means is English Tory style democracy
    will continue unabated. The devolved powers will do what they are told, OUR form of democracy is paramount.

  309. Marie Clark says:

    Thepnr@ 9.51, Ha ha, I’d pay money to see that one.

  310. Ken500 says:

    The most devious duplicitous ‘politicians’ in the Scittish Parliament. Harvie. The Leader of a single issues pressure group. Censoring the SNP in the Scottish Parliament for events caused by his Party members at a local level colluding with Unionist for remuneration and Office. Casting aside in the process of the supposed ‘green’ credentials. A total and utter betrayal of every principle, Then censor and blaming the SNP Scottish Gov in Holyrood for outcomes of lack of funding of essential services at local on the SNP administration.

    Demanding more and more illegal funding for councils who along with Harvie and his party members have facilitated a unionist coalition betrayal of the electorate. For ‘green’ Party members personal greed. Harvie is the most corrupt,devious politician leader of a devious one issue political pressure group, in the Parliament in Holyrood. Taking the moral high ground while scrambling in the gutter of unionist policies and depriving essential services. At a local level of the relevant funding allocated by the Scotttish Gov.

    Corruption beyond belief because his party members have facilitated by going into coalition with union politicans to betray the electorate, Their one vote at council local Gov level gives the unionist the majority and power to divert total adequate funding for excellent essential services to grotesque, carbuncle projects

    Having the cheek and nerve to claim to hold other political parties to account for the corrupt deeds caused by himself and members of his own Party. Not only is he not held to account but he does not hold his own members to account. As they daily, gaily massacre essential public services with lack of provision and cause hardship. in collusion with Unionists for greedy personal remuneration and gain,

    They betray the week and the vulnerable and sanction and starve people to death in collusion with the unionists. If they used their vote responsible and voted against the unionists corruption in co operation with the SNP at local level. The unionists would be prevented from acting as they do. Facilitating the embezzlement of public money which is then syphoned off and wasted. More money is borrowed and spent £Million/Billions on non mandated grotesque wasteful carbuncles and projects. Negative of absolutely no essential value. Not supported by the majority. Putting up emission level to dangerous levels.

    Not supporting pedestrianisation and Gifts of £Millions to facilitate and improve city centres. Blocking essential road building in the interest of landowners who fund them. Blocking a Golf project which add green jobs and leisure services. Improving the local economy and supported by the majority.

    Blocking airport expansion. So longer, less direct routes cause more emissions, congestion and traffic chaos at other airport hubs. Making travel stressful and causing expensive delays. Blocking essential road building which increase emission levels. Scurrilous, illegal campaigns of illegal council insider dealing. Dubious campaigns which waste £Millions//Billions of public money.

    Not spending the funds allocated for adddition needs and education, potholes, social care, transport,nurseries, homelessness provision. Green parties elected members are colluding with unionists to cut the essential services budget and allocating the funds to building non mandated offensive projects. These do not support ‘green’ principles in any shape or form. In every town City in Scotland where they have managed to lie and gain control to any power in any shape or form.

    Colluding with unionists at every level against ‘green’ principles. Causing outrage. Wasting £Million/Billions which could be better spent not only on the essential services for which the funds were intended but on other ‘green’ positive outcomes.

    Without even considering the Trams, Not even referring to that Project in any way shape or form which has some value. Despite the collosal overspend. It is still being badly administrated at Council level. In the wealthiest City in Scotland where the transport system is subsided by public funds. The tram fares are pro rata too low, (Free? Bus) OAP travel passes cannot be used on the Trams even on the off peak hours they are allocated. Leading to less, pro rata, customer take up.

    The trams are running half empty at off peak time when they could have more oassengers. No consummating the maximum investment. The airport bus although dearer (£12 return) is quicker and OAP bus passes can be used on them at off peak times putting up passenger level. Requiring. more buses to be running, uneconomically. While the Trams are running at off peak hours without the full volume of passengers. OAP (bus) travel passes cannot be used on the trams even at off peak hours. A total waste of subsidies of public money. Harvie and cohorts would be better attending to these constituecy issues. In other rural areas people cannot access adequate transport services. They have to use cars to which the ‘greens’ object

    Rather then pouncing around the Scottish Parliament like zealots Making an absolute fools of themselves with total lack of self awareness. Being clocked at every duplicitous move. Wasting public time, space and money. Hypocritically and corruptly calling out other Parties (SNP) for the poor outcomes of ‘green?’ Party policies and behaviour at local levels. The duplicity and lies of the actions of ‘green?’ Party members, who Harvie as leader (the buck stops there) does not hold to account in any way shape or form. Bulldozing through essential services and decimation them at local level. Illegally borrowing and wasting public money like there is no tomorrow. Illegally Getting towns, Cities and administration into £Milliions/Billions of unnecessary debt. Then demanding more and more public money from the (SNP) Scottish Gov. Having already wasted £Billions at local level by bad and corrupt administration, all facilitated by the Green Party politician – one vote. Instead of voting with the SNP group to end the corruption,

    For duplicity and lies, corrupt lack of any self awareness at any level. Cutting essential public service which are more than adequately funded for excellent service at every level. Wasting and misappropriating public money for self gain.

    Without any doubt for hypocrisy, the (non) Green Party holds the Crown. Not only are they a threat to proper local/central good governance. They are a threat to adequate democracy and good essential local/municipal services. Not only an insult to people’s intelligence with the lack of their own self awareness. To add insult to injury they think no one will notice, covered up by their rhetoric The majority of people do notice and are outraged. No wonder the majority will not vote fior them.

    Rather then facilitating Independence. They are a threat to it and democracy on a farce of a political electoral system. The losers wins with less proportion of the vote while first and second choice votes are thrown in the bucket. What sort of political system is that. A farce which some politicians think the public will not notice. People do notice and are outraged at the devious political gerrymanding. So much so that people turn off and will not vote. Can’t be bothered because it is a waste of time in their opinion. They are so turned and switched off by the total corruption of self seeking, greedy politicians. I.e. The majority.

    The SNP do so well because they are the best Party who stuck to their principle and their manifesto whereever possible because they care about the outcomes and good administration supporting the vulnerable etc, I,e Honest and truthful wherever possible. Surrounded by liars of every political hue who actually have the cheek and downright nerve to blame the SNP good governance for their (iother Parties) bad corruption. Then think people will not notice adding insult to injury.

    People do notice and have a right to call it out but who calls out the ‘green’?’ Party corruption. While they are gaily, contemptuously holding other Parties to account and blaming them for ‘Green Parties immense failure of competent governance at every level. If anyone criticises them and responsibly calls them out. They lie and call the authorities/Police to try and use the authorities for cheap publicity. Wasting even more public money.Again wasting the Police/authorities and justice system time and money. Public money which could be better spent. Then complaining of a Police state when it suits them.

    The SNP support Green principles and carry them through better at every level than the ‘greens’. Meeting set emission targets and beyond, For a successful, balanced economy which support people/citizens at every level with competent visionary government,. To provide a thriving successful inclusive economy, supporting people at every level and potiential first class essential (Green) services, Especially with more support, than hinderance from other political Parties. The SNP are greener than the greens, Or the unionists. The unionist and green no party. Throwing their principles and manifesto promises in the bucket at every available opportunity. Until people just do not trust them anymore. Especially since they have been at it for so long. Since 1928 and before. Causing death and destruction and illegal wars in every parts of the world, Major criminals who illegally attack the weak and vulnerable with their own agenda of selfish greed and corrruption.

    No wonder so few people vote for a mainly single issue pressure group of arrogant Con men who are a threat to Independence because people will not vote for it because of the behaviour and policies of the ‘green’ movement. They turn off more people than they turn on.

    Anyone that wants to and supports it, can vote for Independence. They do not have to be lied to and insulted by anyone. Including Politicians, MSM or single issue interest groups. Or these will get the fall out. Sanctioned and criticised for their duplicitous behaviour. The UK is becoming an isolated Police state because of ever more centralised, distant illegal Gov. Cut off from their European neighbours by corrupt Westminster Gov who the majority in the UK do not support. Right wing illegal non Dom tax evasion, illegal wars and banking fraud and corruption for personal greed and remuneration.

    The Westminster unionist crooks destroying the world economy and blaming everyone else for their corrupt actions. Sanctioning and starving vulnerable people to death and illegal bombing them. Causing the worst migration crisis in the world since the 11WW and then trying to run away and leave other countries to try to cope with the burden. Costing the EU/European countries £Trns of funding. For many an immense burden, not of their causing or choosing. . US/UK Defence/foreign policies. Total illegal hypocrites. Corrupt politicians. Politics of the sewer. So they can illegally tax evade and not pay their dues. The UK (British State) one of the most unequal places in the world, Destroying the world economy.

  311. Proud Cybernat says:

    Yo Risible

    “Political differences are the very soul of democracy. Its healthy and benefits human kind.”

    So pray do tell – what’s the difference between “differences” and ‘divisions’? I’d really like to know cuz we’re all just SOOOOOoooooo DIVIDED with these effing DIFFERENCES.

    But hey, “Its healthy and benefits human kind.”

    Take a visit to Holyrood and tell the Yoons there, will ya cuz they don’t like differences.

  312. Dr Jim says:

    “Unarmed” police officers carry a Baton either extendable or fixed, disabling spray, and some other less used bits and bobs, neither of these defensive weapons was deployed by the officer when approached by a man with arms extended holding knives
    If that information is accurate and I hope not, means something went badly wrong and is that why every media presenter and interviewee keeps stressing the point about an unarmed police officer instead of an unprepared police officer, because if it’s the latter they really need to say so and I don’t say that out of criticism for the police officer I say that in concern for the quality of the training of the officers charged with facing actual physical threat who are put in a position between the bad guys and the rest of us

    Just because a man wears a uniform and has had training doesn’t always endow that man with the personality required to carry out armed or unarmed conflict when it becomes a reality

    The police have to answer that question for that mans family and not obvuscate by using the words sacrifice and bravery to cover themselves
    We know the officer put himself in front of the bad guy, that’s not up for question but you can’t have a local beat Bobby guarding a high security terrorist target, that requires a different kind of officer and a different kind of training

    As for the poor folk injured and killed by the car only the most extreme legislation could have made any difference to the mentality of an attack like this as we’ve seen with other cities around the world

  313. sensibledave says:

    Mike 9.31

    I was commenting about your missives to do with events in London and your lack Self awareness and empathy Mike. Empathy is about understanding how other people may be feeling. Its about getting a feel for the “mood” of the group and therefore not behaving like a complete a**e by promoting your paranoid delusions.

    Most commenters, regardless of their personal political differences with those based in Westminster, understood that a tragedy had taken place and that a little sensitivity to that was appropriate in the circumstance – even though, for many, yesterday was meant to be a very important date in Holyrood.

    To spend your time, spouting paranoid tut, was more than a tad inappropriate and demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of what the Police and the Authorities would be trying to achieve. Somehow, you managed to spin things that you were being victimised because you didn’t know “the truth” by some timescales that you alone determined.

    Have a nice day.

  314. Macart says:

    Just in case we forget what it was like in the days before we had a voice.

    You often wonder just what has the Scottish Government done for us? (Life of Brian moment there) Let’s face it, you’ll never find out from their political opponents. And as for a media which is almost 90% plus percent antagonistic toward the Scottish Government? Well, if a thing isn’t printed or broadcast by the media, apparently it hasn’t happened.

    I came across this piece by Grouse Beater a while back. Worth reminding folks just what has been achieved and what work has been done by the Scottish government.

  315. galamcennalath says:

    orri says:

    … the EU might be forgiven for treating any deal involving Scotland with a sack of salt.

    Indeed. With Scotland possibly/probably about to leave the UK it makes no sense for the UK and EU to negotiate and ignore this. Much of what was decided could be irrelevant!

    For one thing the reparations payment in the divorce should be lower for rUK than for UK.

    IMO the ‘Scottish question’ will be integral to the talks, and deal.

    The Tories, no doubt, won’t want that … tough.

  316. Proud Cybernat says:

    In case anyone missed it:

    ‘Wee Black Book – The Movie’

  317. Liam says:

    “The same people whose safety was paramount yesterday, voted to go to war against Iraq. As a result, over 500,000 women and children were killed by coalition forces.”

    I don’t think the attacker was going to ask people for their voting history. Yes, there were people in the Palace of Westminster who voted for an illegal war that I marched against. But there were also people in that building who voted against the war, people who weren’t elected to go there until afterwards and couldn’t have been part of the decision making process, and there were also hundreds more who just work there: cleaning staff, kitchen staff, porters, maintenance people, office staff, constituents wanting to meet their MP, lobbyists of all persuasions…

    Very few of the hundreds of people in that building had any input into the lead up to war with Iraq. The police response was so massive and complete because the Houses of Parliament are such an obvious target.

    I suspect and hope there are similar swamp and contain contingency plans for Holyrood.

  318. Dr Jim says:

    I always find it amusing when people refer to the UK government representing all of us when it never is and never has been
    If the UK government were to be representative of all the UK there would be Ministers from the other Nations and parties involved, but there never are
    The only Ministers involved are Ministers from the ruling party of the day and that’s always England

    So the nearest correct description of the UK government is in fact the English government in an undemocratic Dominion

    And in any book of democracy anywhere that’s usually called

  319. Mike says:

    @Sensible Dave

    My Missives about the London attack? I show concern and express genuine worry about how the UK State and the media will use these events not in any respectful way or sympathetic way in order to honour those who died or were injured but in a manner more cynical and self serving and you use that as an excuse to avoid answering the valid points I made regarding the utter shite you deliberately post.

    Spare me you’re deliberate painful need to troll.

  320. heedtracker says:

    sensibledave says:
    23 March, 2017 at 10:19 am
    Mike 9.31

    I was commenting about your missives to do with events in London and your lack Self awareness and empathy Mike.

    Indeed sensible, your “empathy” for and with Scottish democracy or even progressive liberal YES voters, btl WoS, is always such a joy to watch.

  321. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr (9.51) –


    Splendid idea there – then she can’t blame someone for ‘forgetting’ to give her the result of our parliament’s decision.

    Knowing AS, he’d do it with a flourish, giving her a complimentary teacake and a saucy wink.

  322. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    I don’t know if I was imagining it, but I could’ve sworn that the BBC article currently headlined “Nicola Sturgeon sees ‘sense of solidarity’ with London after attack”, was slightly different yesterday. The now-ubiquitous BBC quotation marks were just around the word ‘solidarity’, giving the headline a very cynical ‘aye, that’ll be right, Nicola’ look. Wonder what made them change it, if I didn’t just dream it.

    Maybe because it’d only be right to report – with healthy use of quotations – on all the politicians whose advisors thought it was a good idea for them to tweet (tweet? TWEET? Jesus Christ) about how their thoughts and prayers are with the victims. Their ‘devastation’ manifesting itself in a copy-and-paste internet message.

  323. Mike says:

    So what has this attack gained for International Islamic Terrorism?

    More people condemn and hate them. They invite reaction and retaliation.

    What has been gained by the UK State?

    Well where do I start?

    A huge deflection away from all the Domestic issues that’s plaguing the UK Government.

    Another excuse to bring in more anti personnel liberty legislation dressed up as Anti terror legislation.

    A more sympathetic attitude from the EU just before negotiation begin.

    The UK Government gets to look like victims instead of criminals.

    The UK Government gets an excuse to try and justify further warmongering.

    Please feel free to add to the list.

  324. DerekM says:

    This may sound cold but it was always going to happen,you can not instill fear,hatred and division into a mixed ethnic and religious population and expect the psychologically disturbed not to do something inhumane.

    Who did it?

    It could be anyone for any reason since the UK government specialize in pissing people off.

    Some people are just not ready to accept the reality in which they live and when their bubble world is destroyed by politics,war,poverty,disease or religion they can become highly unstable what is the word i am looking for ah yes radicalized and by the same establishments who like to talk tough on radicals and division.

    Hmmm fear,anger,hatred the dark side are those.

  325. Mike says:

    This would never have happened if our Trident deterrent had been in position in the Thames and not out of the way in Scotland.

  326. Vestas says:

    @Dr Jim 10:18 am :

    “If that information is accurate and I hope not, means something went badly wrong and is that why every media presenter and interviewee keeps stressing the point about an unarmed police officer…

    …you can’t have a local beat Bobby guarding a high security terrorist target, that requires a different kind of officer and a different kind of training”

    I dunno what you’re on about here at all. The cop killed was part of the diplomatic protection unit. He would be armed at ALL times and is about as far as you can get from a “beat bobby”.

    I suggest that you don’t know what happened and should stop speculating.

  327. sensibledave says:

    MIke (akak “Brains)

    You wrote “i’ve actually been expecting some kind of terrorist related incident to occur timed to coincide with the debates and designed to put Scottish Independence in a bad light. You cant put it past them.


    “Speculation is all we have as the media is being a bit unusually circumspect in reporting any details about the attacker.”


    “I’m starting to think we are being cynically manipulated by the establishment trying to increase our fear and wariness levels in order to bring in even more stringent anti terror legislation and restrictions.”


    “Is nobody else even slightly suspicious about the fact that there are no details released about the attacker yet the entire UK establishment is acting as if we’ve been hit by an avalanche of terrorist activity?”

    = Paranoid Delusion. QED

  328. harry mcaye says:

    I needed to get some thought down on yesterday and apologies if these views have already been expressed, I haven’t read all the comments.

    Had the debate continued yesterday and the vote taken place, I think it would have been a huge setback for independence. The media north and south would have leapt on it, even STV, in their allotted fifteen minutes (due to a super huge England friendly taking place later), and the SNP would have been castigated. The “not giving in to terrorism” angle would not have washed. It would have been “How dare they carry on…show some respect… who cares about Scottish Independence right now… lowest of the low…Sturgeon’s Gestapo” etc etc. As it was, even Jon Snow managed a little dig about “Nicola Sturgeon’s day of defiance against Westminster”. And now today, we find some papers can’t resist the temptation to still have a pop at Roseanna Cunningham. Really despicable. So, I have to totally disagree with Stu, I am hugely relieved it was stopped; it didn’t feel right as the clock approached 4pm to see them still debating when at that point we knew at least one person has died. Our movement certainly doesn’t need to give the British Establishment more ammunition.

    I saw some of Stu’s tweets and shook my head. I wish he would calm down and think more rationally at times. Again, it’s giving our opponents (enemies maybe a bit too strong today) the ammunition and we don’t need it.

  329. Roboscot says:


    If the two police officers were armed, why didn’t the second officer shoot the assailant. If he went to get help he must have been unarmed.

  330. Bill McLean says:

    Sensible – been taking in the exchange between you and Mike. Your latest post confirms that no one must have a different opinion from yours and I therefore, from my subservient and uneducated mind,conclude that you are a “big heid”.
    I know you’ll struggle to understand this but hell your pretentiousness amuses me!

  331. harry mcaye says:

    Meant to say above that the debate and vote continuing would also have sat very uncomfortably with many Scots. I was uncomfortable and I’m a committed yesser. For those undecided and, more importantly, for those sick of all the referendum talk, and there are many, it would have been an enormous own goal.

    Many do not have an appetite for another indyref but that is not to say that they wouldn’t eventually engage. We cannot afford any large public relations cock ups and they wouldn’t have come much larger than this one. I can’t imagine how the news would have been reported, how could the Holyrood vote compete with terrorism? I’m very relieved today.

  332. Conan the Librarian says:

    Indeed Harry, Westminster carrying on would be “defiance” whilst Holyrood doing the same would be “disrespectful”. We will never win where the media are concerned.

    Have to disagree about Stu’s tweets though; it wouldn’t matter what he tweeted, he’d still be a vile cybernat. So sod them and say what you think.

  333. Bill McLean says:

    Harry McAye – you will have noticed that the nice unionist Mike Rumbles (LD) was against closing down and that the only person who has the power to close down is the Presiding Officer – also a nice unionist! I think they have a new motto down south “Hypocrisy not Democracy” – that from my pal Dennis who I hope won’t mind me quoting him. Those who would use this tragedy for political means are not human – but we’ve always suspected that have we not?

  334. manandboy says:

    Before ye start, ah know – it’s too long. Ahm sorry aboot that. Read it fast if yov no got time


    The UK is changing, big time. A few are becoming wealthier, far wealthier, while most are getting poorer, some a little, others a lot. Austerity has created big changes in the UK. Except, Austerity has done no such thing. It is the Tory Party in Government who have implemented Austerity as a matter of their choice. They’re the ones making the changes. Austerity is a creation of neo-liberal thinking, just like Privatisations and Private Finance Initiative schemes.
    Austerity is a big change with a big future – if the Tories have anything to do with it.

    Anyway, the point is the UK is undergoing big changes at the hands of this Tory government. This is set to continue as opposition to the Tories becomes more and more a thing of the past. Only the few will benefit from these Tory changes because these changes are designed that way. Ordinary people in the UK are NOT in Tory plans for the future.

    It is important to understand that the Tory neo-liberal plans for further change in the UK are NOT for the sake of appearances. Oh no. No, no, no.
    Not satisfied with transferring national wealth to the elite, ie stealing YOUR money, this Tory government will make sure that we will not be able to get it back – or to stop even more of it disappearing in the future.

    To do this successfully, the ToryUKIP UK Government will make big changes to how Democracy works in the UK until it disappears altogether. (It’s actually well on the way already) But that’s not all. Freedom itself will in future be massively curtailed by the Tories. Our human rights will simply be removed because they stand in the way of creating the New British Empire which Theresa May envisages in her neo-liberal vision of the UK’s future. Changing UK law on human rights is a major reason why the Tories are keen on leaving the EU.

    The Tories have a plan for a new British Empire – and the EU isn’t in it. Neither are YOU.

    But Scotland IS. ‘Cos Scotland has loadsa money. NOT the Scottish people, they’re for the bin, but all Scotland’s lovely natural lucrative resources. The Tories want them. And they mean to get them.


    Yes, that’s right, we are. How? By getting oot yer front door and making it happen. An if yer no a member yit, wtf’s keepin ye. SNP, Greens, whatever. Get yirsel signed up, a pound a month, that’s nuthin, and then let’s put a stop to the Tory plans for ruining everything for ordinary people.

    Independence for Scotland – that’ll put a spanner in the Tory works alright. And that is exactly what we must do!

    Let’s do it, eh?

  335. Mike says:

    The Herald is reporting that the attacker was British born and known to MI5.

    I too am British born and I bet I’m also known to MI5 for expressing my “Extremist” views online.

  336. Brian Powell says:

    Leslie Riddoch writing in the National complained that the debate in Holyrood was lacklustre.

    Not an unlikely outcome in a contained Holyrood debate over two days with endless Unionist repetitious ‘speeches’, it is likely what they wanted.

    In the real debate we will not be confined by the other side, we will be talking directly to voters.

  337. heedtracker says:

    Roboscot says:
    23 March, 2017 at 11:17 am

    Even more shocking that he was able to crash into one side of Westminster fencing and then run through its main entrance round the corner, directly into the gardens. At such a height of terror alert threat, its just extraordinary.

  338. robertknight says:

    “85% of the population here in Scotland voted in that referendum and they voted no” according to our arithmetical genius and distorter of facts Kezia; deliberately trying to give a subliminal and distorted message that 85% of the population here in Scotland voted No.

    However, those of us who don’t button up the back know the truth is somewhat different.

    85% of the Electorate voted in 2014, or 85% of 4,283,392 registered voters, which is Not the same as 85% of the population, which in 2014 was approx. 5,358,000. (There were over 1 million people who were living in Scotland in 2014 who were not registered to vote).

    Therefore 3,623,344, and not 4,554,300, actually voted in that referendum.

    85% of the population did not vote No in that referendum, as Kezia’s subtle little bit of language infers.

    55.3% of 3,623,344 or 2,001,926 individuals voted No, which equates to 46.7% of the electorate or 37.4% of the population.

    Kezia Dugdale… Nothing else needs said.

  339. Mike says:

    @Demented Dave.

    “= Paranoid Delusion. QED”

    Just because somebody may be paranoid doesn’t mean nobody is out to get them.


  340. robertknight says:

    To confirm, accurate and truthful statements would be that…

    “85% of the electorate here in Scotland voted in that referendum and 55% of them voted no”


    “68% of the population here in Scotland voted in that referendum and 55% of them voted no”

    As it stands, her claim is another example of the twisting of facts and distorting of the truth we have come to expect from Red and Blue Tories alike.

  341. heedtracker says:

    Brian Powell says:
    23 March, 2017 at 11:28 am
    Leslie Riddoch writing in the National complained that the debate in Holyrood was lacklustre.

    I rather enjoyed watching my Slovene girlfriend trying on his WATP act. Its quite surreal really, watching a ferocious hard core tory chancer, reaching out to the WATP like this.

  342. call me dave says:

    From WoS twitter.

    Britain can complete trade talks within two years, says UK’s EU envoy.

    Sir Tim Barrow says EU has duty to negotiate not just the divorce but also the future trading relationship

  343. sensibledave says:

    Bill McLean 11:18 am

    You wrote “Sensible – been taking in the exchange between you and Mike. Your latest post confirms that no one must have a different opinion from yours and I therefore, from my subservient and uneducated mind,conclude that you are a “big heid”.”

    … on the scale of unflattering insults, being called a “big heid” doesn’t really register Bill.

    Pointing out to a contributor that, in my view, his contributions are paranoid and delusional – when his contributions are paranoid and delusional (and proven by showing examples of his work) – isn’t, again in my view, being “big heided”. It could be that I am wrong (very unlikely though) but it isn’t being big heided.

    So, try again.

  344. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Also, Mike, as Bertrand Russell said:

    “Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.”

    Shine on crazy diamond.

  345. Ken500 says:

    Margaret Thatchers respond to the illegal abuse of youngsters in Hotel suite at the Grand Hotel during Conservative Party Confetence. Was ‘Boys will be boys’. She knew Tory politicians were abusing children. The Police did nothing on her instructions. Saville. Tory Party Thatcher supporter. Given a Knigthood. and The Police did nothing on her instructions. Saville had the Police in his pocket. They colluded and hide the crimes on the instructions of Westminster politicians. So did the BBC.

    Appalling illegal child abuse is happening worldwide covered up by world authorities and the internet for money, favour and remuneration. A public disgrace of monumental proportions. Destroying the world environment and economy. Increasing world suffering, stress, security and contentment. Alarming people. There can be nothing more aberrant than the abuse of children which destroys people’s lives. Hague destroyed the dossier of Westminster cover up of the abuse and brutalising of children. He then tried to deny it.

    Thatcher cared about no one except herself. Broke the ministerial code and knowingly acted corruptly, secretly and illegally? Broke the Ministral Code Illegally handed the UK Press over to the right-wing criminal tax evading Non Doms for money. £Millions of illegal donations to her Political Party. For illegal knighthoods etc. Without a free and fair balanced Press there is no Democracy. Hiding her criminal behaviour under the Official Secrets Act buried for 30 years. Till she died.

    So she could never be held to account fir her crimes. So she could get away with it. Dunblane and Iraqi War Labour corruption. Illegally kept secret under the Official Secrets Act for 100 years. So Tony Blair and the Labour Party can never be held to account for their crimes. Killing maiming and murdering, starving millions of innocent people, worldwide, because of Westminster intransigence and lies.

    Devastating the world economy, causing the worst humanitiarian, migrant crisis in Europe sincev11WW. That is why the EU was formed to stop starvation and war in Europe after the 11WW. That had been relatively successful until now because of UK/US illegal Defence/foreign policy breaking International Law. They make the Law and break the Law. They are above the Law. The Police/illegal surveillance will be monitoring this site. Along with many others.

    Snowden called them out. The Democrats Obama was illegally wiretapping taping Trump, using Britain. Snowden showed how that was done. Gov Surveillance Authoritues use other countries to illegally circumvent their own Laws, Snowden was a patriot who wanted to work in US Gov to support his country.

    Snowden had a relatively successful career path in technology. A relatively affluent life. Snowden found out how the Laws were being totally broken and exposed what was happening because of the breach in the US Justice system. Snowden believed in democratic, justice in Gov. The US authorities crucified him. The Russians compassionately took him in . Instead of throwing him to the wolves. Of a probably lifetime of solitary confinement because he believed in justice and would not immorally break the Law. Supporting Lawful Gov. Wiki leaks etc. Assange held up,in the Embassy on trumped up charges, by the UK Gov. For releasing the truth. An absolute disgrace,

    Tony Blair, a warmongering criminal getting Police protection for ever paid by the taxpayers. For killing and maiming millions of other and getting away with it. Every attempt to bring him to justice thwarted by the British authorities. Yet starving vulnerable desperate people with mental health issues can be put in jail for taking a drink or water or a piece of bread. Thatcher – care in the community – prison.

    Trump knows what was happening, because they knew what he was doing/saying and meeting. Sometimes quite innocently or mildy inappropriately. Making and forming relations. For future administration. The Democrats were doing the same or worse, but not being surveilled to such an extent because they were in semi control of the surveillance. Most of the time the surveillance authorities are out of control but create division to serve a purpose of self entitlement and remuneration. Trump did not have the opportunity or appropriate means to do it. Or just did not want to because it was illegal. Or because he could be caught out. Now they are playing chicken. A dangerous game with people’s lives who will blink first. Clinton was exposed.

    How did they know? What he was doing – because of surveillance. Surveillance which would have been illegal in the US. The US surveillance get around the illegal surveillance in the US breaking US Laws. Get other countries to do it.- the UK surveillance authorities. So the US surveillance authorities claim they never did it. Correct but they got another country to do it. I.e. Not illegal at home. The then claim they do not do it or act illegal. When they know they sanctioned it. A technicality under the Law.

    The UK authorities then deny all knowledge of it, because they technically did not act illegally by surveilling citizens in the other country. Where it is illegal to use surveillance without the relevant legal requirement. Snowden exposed how countries, especially U.K./US were illegally surveilling people and breaking their own Laws with impunity.

    Trump knows they know. The US surveillance authorities knows he knows they were acting illegally in the US but using the UK authorities to do it. Then the surveillance authorities deny it because technically they were not illegally surveilling people in their own countries.

    They get another country to do it and pass on the information. Technically passing on the information is not illegal but a cover up. The surveillance is at the country of origin by other country’s friendly authorities. Out of the origin country’s jurisdiction. They were getting another country to do it.

    All in order to circumvent their own legal requirement (Laws) set by the authorities in their own countries. They do it for money. It costs an absolute fortune worldwide. A total disproportionate waste of money, time and space which could be better spent. Destroying the world environment and world interdependent relations.

    They do it all the time around the world surveilling innocent people totally disproportionately, Abuse and illegality. A Police/world State. To cover up their crimes and the illegal crimes of other government against their own citizens. To get the illegal outcome that they want, it is arrogance intransigence and ignorance of monumental proportions.

  346. Bill McLean says:

    Sensible – since, and as I predicted, you would not understand I will try again. No insult was intended, however if you assume you are important enough to me to insult you that is your problem. I have never met anyone who would claim they were omniscient enough to know definitively that someone’s opinion is/was “paranoid and delusional”…. only you! Hence “big heid”. Please feel insulted if you wish – i’m sure paranoid and delusional people are not by your childish jibes.

  347. Dr Jim says:


    Not speculating, asking! The prime minister said the cop was unarmed as did all the news services

  348. sensibledave says:

    O/T -This is just for Bill at 11.55

    Oh dear Bill. Wrong again! Look, I understand that you may disagree with my politics, but you shouldn’t focus on that difference – when we venture into other areas.

    You wrote “I have never met anyone who would claim they were omniscient enough to know definitively that someone’s opinion is/was “paranoid and delusional”…. only you!”

    … then you need to get out more. Moreover, you need to read many of the comments (that were not from me) where they were politely (and less politely in some cases), asking Mike to keep his thoughts to himself. Why was that Bill? Were they too being “big heided”?

    That is my last comment on the subject of “Mike” – he has had his moment in the spotlight and there are far cleverer and more interesting people to communicate with than him. I am sure he appreciated your support though – he didn’t get it from anyone else.

  349. Albert Herring says:

    Aren’t “British born” and “known to MI5” the same thing?

  350. ScottieDog says:

    Folks regarding suspension of parliament I guess we also have to remember that folk in holyrood had close friends, colleagues, partners down in Westminster too. Maybe. Eat not to be trying to debate whilst working out what’s going on elsewhere.

    Regarding Brexit. I’d be very surprised if any political strategist ignored his or her core vote during Brexit negotiations, hence LON/SE will always come first.

    This is about pulling up more power to political elites, not the people of the UK.

  351. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Not speculating, asking! The prime minister said the cop was unarmed as did all the news services”

    I think WM always has an unarmed bobby at the entrance as a ‘symbol’ of free, open and welcoming democracy. Something like that.

  352. Pete says:

    The officer killed was unarmed.
    Very impressed with Theresa’s speech to the HOC.
    Exactly the right tone.
    I know you guys won’t like this but, at times like this, most Scots look to the UK Houses of Parliament rather than the second division Holyrood.

  353. K1 says:

    Davey boy? You’re not the Wings moderator nor the decider of who is interesting nor the diviner of who supports what anyone else says on Wings. You’re a pompous little nyaff with an over inflated sense of ‘your’ own relevance on these threads sunshine. You’re never done insisting that ‘your’ deluded sense of self importance and the value ‘you’ place upon ‘your’ opinions is shoved down others throats on here ad nauseaum.

    Pot kettle Davey boy. Get aff yer jumped up high horse ya big snobby hypocrite twat.

  354. Bill McLean says:

    Sensible – Wrong again – your lack of depth does you little credit and is only a distraction to most of us! I have no dog in the Mike/Sensible race and could care less about your politics. I read this blog for the political information and exchange of views not your need to flex your feelings of superiority. If you like this site and the political discourse you might like to review your attitude to the opinions of others.

  355. call me dave says:

    A bit of concensus there at FMQs. That’s fair enough.

    Leave all the SNP bad until Tuesday as the SG gets the Section 30 through the stage of the procedure towards a referendum.

  356. Stoker says:

    Tam Jardine (and anyone else interested):

    A few days ago you posted a comment which seemed to be looking for other ideas on what more you could do with regards to promoting the cause of independence? Hope i’m not picking you up wrong but here’s a suggestion i’m doing.

    It concentrates on promoting WOS and therefore subsequently Scottish independence. There is absolutely no need to promote any particular political party because that just automatically turns off a lot of people as soon as they look at it. The same could possibly be said for mentioning independence or referendums.

    I’ve recently decided to make it my mission to go all out and make everyone in my patch aware of WOS’ existence – your patch can be as big or as small as you want to make it. I plan to repeat the exercise at set intervals using different material each time. The aim is to spike curiosity in folk, bring them to WOS where hopefully they will become regular readers and/or converts to the cause, without feeling pressured or badgered from door-steppers etc.

    If you have access to a computer, PC, laptop or any device that will allow you to access websites of printing companies and to play around on them and you can spare a few quid, just add a wee bit of imagination and planning and you’re good to go.

    I’ve started my promo mission by designing some simple A6 cards (postcard size). Very easy to carry around, even to the pub, club, library, waiting rooms or wherever. Keep the message simple and punchy and add a touch of humour. Remember, your aim is to spike curiosity and reel in the readers, the rest will take care of itself.

    My first promo effort has the following Cairnstoon on one side:
    The only addition i’ve added to it is Chris’ Cairnstoon web address, just under his autograph 😀 because that doesn’t come up very clear on the print for those with poorer eyesight. You can choose whatever touch of humour you think best suited to your patch, i live in a predominantly Tory area.

    On the other side of the card i used material from this article:
    I more or less just reproduced the last 4 paragraphs (edited down) and at the top of the card i headed it; DID YOU KNOW? and along the bottom of the card i put in black bold;

    I then got 5000 of them for £65 and had them in my possession three days later. Now i have to pay for my over eagerness and deliver them all 😀 Remember folks, shop around for a printers who provide a quality, fast and competitive service, and you can order as few or as many as you can afford.

    There are some really good companies out there so do your homework, unfortunately i discovered that most of them are in England but don’t let that small hurdle get in the way of progress. If i could find a Scottish based printers that offered equal service and supported our cause i would use them but i’m still looking.

    Also, the big names in printing are not necessarily the best to go with, companies such as Vistaprint etc. They offer a very good and competitive service but i found 2 or 3 which i believe offer better value for money and have better, more user friendly, websites. Ones such as Solopress (to give one example).

    The choice and creation is completely down to your own imagination. Apologies if i read your post wrong Tam but if i have hopefully this post will inspire others to make it their mission to do likewise. I plan to chop-and-change the Indy sites i promote but WOS will always occupy one side. 🙂

  357. Proud Cybernat says:

    Stinky Pete just couldn’t keep his gobshite to himself.


  358. Stoker says:

    RE: My post at 12:31 –

    Correction: I obviously didn’t put the “http://” on the cards.

    I’ve been looking at that pic of Dippy Dug too long, i swear every time i look at it i can hear her screatch DORATHEEEEEEEEEE

  359. Bill McLean says:

    Proud Cybernat – yes, really decent of “stinky Pete” to use tragedy for political purposes. But, then of course, he is a unionist.

  360. K1 says:

    ‘I know you guys won’t like this but, at times like this, most Scots look to the UK Houses of Parliament rather than the second division Holyrood.’

    Don’t presume to speak for ‘most Scots’.

    Just because people have known nothing other than what they have been taught to regard as ‘authorative’ in the UK context does not delegitimise Scots Parliament authority. Although your attempt at doing just that is duly noted.

    What a self cringing obsequious petty comment to make peety, yer knees must be in tatters wi aw that crawlin’ and yer tongue nippin’ like fuck what wi aw the arse lickin’ it’s been dain’ o’er the years.

  361. K1 says:

    Yer duly doffed: ‘petty peety’

  362. Ken500 says:

    RT has published the guy’s identity. Yesterday. There was a comprehensive report about it. (Unless it is fake news). Westminster must have put a shut down on the the information, A ‘D’ notice under the Offical Secrets Act – because of embarrassment? about their ineffective security policies. Especially Teresa May who as Home Secretary was responsible for security policy. A total dereliction of duty. MSM are not allowed to publish any details or even give out any details of the ‘D’ notice or they are put in prison. A preacher like the Choudry guy. One of his mates. He had been in prison a few times. Some folk thought it didn’t look like the guy in the stretcher, but could have been him in more conventional clothes. A bad angle.

    The RT? Report gave the account of the guy’s teaching and fights with the Police and Home Office who could not shut him down. The Tory Gov claimed they had no enough powers to shut him up under UK Law. i.e. One of the reasons given to come out of the EU. Nonsensical on every scale. Shared Intelligence and cooperation. Coming out of The EU makes Britain more insecure. In isolation. The exact opposite of what the Tories claim. Teresa May and cronies must be in total shock at the shocking situation. An shocking attack on Parliament. The supposedly ‘ oldest’ Parliament in the world. It is not.The seat of Democracy. It is not. It is old and crumbling at the seams. .History just came around like a dead kipper and smacked it in the face.Unforgettable scandal which will go down in history and shake the world to the core. Never mind the Tories. They must be bricking it, themselves.

    Like the Choudry guy. Well known Preacher from Birmingham. Public figure. It is possible they were trying to deport him. Increasing Mental health problems. That set him off on the terrible course of death and destruction. Westminster could be organising a cover up. Releasing the information selectively to deflect from any criticism. There will be major criticism and outrage. It could bring down the Tory Gov or they might close ranks. The participants must be in total shock. Not know what to do. In blind panic once the details get out. Otherwise why the immediate cover up.

  363. Mike says:

    @Desperate Davy

    “when his contributions are paranoid and delusional (and proven by showing examples of his work”

    Except what you haven’t done is prove the examples are examples of paranoia or delusion.

  364. heedtracker says:

    Christ BBC are milking every last drop of this nightmare. If just one would ask any Westminster MP that voted for the Iraq invasion, why they think these attacks are happening.

    Just watched Ligger Neil boost a tory nightmare like Ian Duncan Smith explain that endless terror is the new world order, everywhere, we all must accept it. Ligger’s such a ghastly character today.

  365. heedtracker says:

    IDS, grovelled to and fellated by hard core Murdoch henchman like the Ligger, sits in a BBC studio owned by the tories, promising endless terror for us all, forever.

    Consistently voted for the Iraq war Show votes
    5 votes for, 0 votes against, 1 absence, between 2002–2003

  366. Dr Jim says:

    Most people don’t look to the houses of parliament for anything, particularly in Scotland where the reaction to most of what comes out of there from Scots is

    Here we go again, is there nae news on?

  367. yesindyref2 says:

    The BBC Scotland broadcast, Brian Taylor, Robbie Dinwoodie and I’ve forgotten her name were very balanced, mentioning both Rumbles and Cunningham as having wanting to continue so as not to give in to terrorism. But that it was right to leave it to Tuesday so that people coud debate fiercely rather than be subdued as they would be today. I reluctantly agree.

    That’s not actually fair on Thatcher, whatever other criticism is due and there’s plenty of it, her first duty was to the UK as a whole, not colleagues, nor even others who died.

    @Dr Jim
    He was unarmed, and against a knife had no chance. In fact he should have run, let the guy in to be taken care of by armed officers. But he should of course have been armed. I’d presume he’d have had extensive firearms training, and probably some self-defence / unarmed combat as well. But against two knives, no chance.

  368. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ yesindyref2, re: unarmed defence.

    I’ve been avoiding discussing any of the finer details about what happened in the attack, cos it’s a bit pointless, but as someone trained in Krav Maga to a decent grade (including elements that deal specifically with disarming knife-wielders; and there were a couple of plods who regularly attended sessions), I’d disagree with there being no chance to defend against that cunt yesterday.

    Of course, I do realise it’s easy for me to sit here and say that…

    But that’s my tuppence worth, anyway.

  369. yesindyref2 says:

    @Reluctant Nationalist
    A relative of mine who was in protection (though not at that time) disarmed someone with a knife, broke his arm. He said afterwards if he could have done it again he’d have run like fuck.

  370. Robert Louis says:

    When I was younger, it was accepted wisdom, without any shadow of doubt that all Scotland needed to do for independence was elect a majority to the London Parliament in favour of independence. We already have that in bucketloads. We also have such a majority in the Scots Parliament. Now, here in 2017, it seems we think their are these untold imaginary barriers – not least due to the aggressive rhetoric from Westminster.

    The fact is, as that Witch Thatcher knew very well, is that Scotland and England are united in a voluntary treaty arrangement. it is entirely up to the people of Scotland to decide if and when they wish to end that treaty and become independent. It is not something to be ‘gifted’ from Westminster.

    Their is no magic power which Westminster has over us, although they like to make people think their is. The day Scotland says, we are independent, Westminster ceases to have a say, right at that very second. That is the nature of independence.

    Theresa May and her pig-ignorant Scottish stooges, Davidson and Mundell, would do well to stop believing their own ill-informed hype, and start paying heed to what John Major AND Thatcher said in the documents linked above. It seems even Thatcher, Major and, for that matter, David Cameron, were somewhat better educated than the current crop of London Tories

    Let’s get the Parliament vote done, then we’ll have our referendum, with or without the morons of 10 Downing Street involved.

  371. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ indyref2
    Haha! Aye. Funnily enough we were taught to run aswell, preferably after having disabled the attacker. My old instructor would be proud of your relative – both in his actions, and spirit afterwards.

  372. Muscleguy says:

    The entire article is certainly worth a read, I have saved the pdf for further analysis.

    It falls down a little on not further exploring the basis of the concept of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland excellently expressed in the Declaration of Arbroath and inherent in the uniquely Scottish idea of the monarch as King/Queen of Scots, not Scotland. Many in England and elsewhere think ‘Mary Queen of Scots’ is just a linguistic variation but it isn’t.

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