Wings Over Scotland

Absolutely ragin. Love it.

Mark Beggan , he certainly seems to identify as such – what a cretin! Are there no adults in the SNP/Green parties?

Mark Beggan , he certainly seems to identify as such – what a cretin! Are there no adults in the SNP/Green parties?

I have only seen a snippet and would dearly like to know if someone pointed out that Alex Salmond was found innocent .
Does Neil Gray think all those found innocent are really guilty as charged? And if the boot was on his foot would he be a happy bunny??

Sorry about the double post Stu

@Dorothy Devine

Neil Grey is not addressing the audience or the camera. He is talking to his masters. Or should I say she. This oddity is:

‘A Cretin!’

A grovelling dipstick.

I would like to make clear that in my previous comment;

“Is Neil Grey a ten year old girl?”

no disrespect was intended towards young girls.

“So it’s about one man!” What an ending.

I watched that debacle with horror last Wednesday night. Neil Gray, the grey man, could not have spelled it out any more clearly than he did. Salmond, probably the only politician capable to taking us to independence, even if just stays in the background, is to be bounded at each and every opportunity. This is scandalous and disgraceful behaviour. I left the SNP over the foot-dragging on independence and over female rights, but I would have swallowed my rage and pride had Humza been allowed – and I choose those words carefully – to make a deal with ALBA’s Ash Regan, probably the only politician who comes anywhere near Mr Salmond’s political acumen. That would have signalled to the rest of the indy movement that unity was foremost and would have allowed all those thousands who have left the SNP to follow them again, but only in unity circumstances.

That was deliberately spurned and spat out by the SNP grey men and the rainbow wing of Toddlers Inc. God, I loathe them with such a passion. It is a toss-up on which I hate most: their absolute lack of political nous and total lack of grey cells or their utter stupidity and lack of self-awareness in every social sphere. Let’s just get them out ASAP. No more holding out the hand of peace and unity. F them. Cut them down in the GE and wipe them out in the SE. Take no prisoners. No quarter given or asked for after this. Mr Salmond, if you continue on this path of reconciliation, of another indyref, you, too, will lose people. Yes, we need the country behind us, and I think we have it behind us. You are a man who takes risks – calculated ones, admittedly – so do that now for Scotland. Ash Regan, like you, is head and shoulders above the common herd in politics.

Now absolutely clear that SNP have no direction other than self grahifactiknmof almost senior figures in the gravy train.
Alba has to call them out for what they truly a self serving devolution party who will only tolerate the woke Greens.
Time for real change in shape of Alba Isp and Independents for Independence.

Swinney was asked today on Sky News about any other candidates coming through for leader and about a second referendum.

Kept stummn about any other candidate coming forward ( “Graeme McCormick?) responding simply to say that his appointment would allow the SNP to build to where they need to be. No other needed.

In relation to a second referendum he acknowledged that support for independence was greater than it was at the time of the referendum but effectively poored cold water on the idea of a referendum.

Swinney is being put in to kill any independence campaign, aside of which, do the SNP, having spent the earlier crowd funded £650k,now got any money.

More of tbe same. The SNP is in its death throes.

2023
“THE SNP leadership contest cost the party £160,000 which it had not budgeted for, according to leaked documents.”
————————————————-

They can’t afford to have another contest – hence Swinney.

@ Anton Decadent
There but for the grace of God go I.

EDIT: I hope that the certain contributor sees this and reads it and starts to wake up from the bullshit she is regularly spoon-fed and stop telling us that the SNP are the vehicle for independence, they are so far from the fuckin vehicle that will lead Scotland away from Westminster clutches.

I accidentally posted before completing my post at 3.06pm

The outstanding European leader of the second half of the 20th century was probably General Charles de Gaulle of France.

He led the free French to their part in the Allies victory in WWII, whereupon he restored democracy to his country. But, lesser politicians got involved and he retired to write his war memoirs, before coming out of retirement to sort-out French politics, at a time when, in a Good Show script, Peter Sellers (as Hercules Gryptpype-Thynne) was: “negotiating with one of the French governments”.

Alex Salmond is our de Gaulle. He should, given the downright hatred of him at the top of the SNP, perhaps leave the day-to-day business of Alba to the likes of Ash Regan, Neale Hanvey and Kenny MacAskill, instead focussing his energies on winning his court cases which will finally silence the character assassination and finish-off the Tractors inside the SNP.

It might, as his age, be too late for the second part of the de Gaulle story to play out, but, with the SNP discredited and probably bankrupt, we could then get on with the business of ending this Union and restoring Freedom.

Mind you, for this to work, Alex would still have to find a way of squaring the circle of the fact, we political parties are a necessary part of democracy, but, they can be infiltrated and stymied, and nobody does it better than the English, against the fact, English political parties will never allow a Scottish one a referendum and freedom has to be achieved by extra-parliamentary means, short of armed conflict, of course.

So, in the interest of pursuing independence, the holyrood election campaign starts now, and the plan should be to challenge the seats of the most resistant snp msps with the strongest indy candidate(alba/independent) available. We could start a crowdfunder to support these candidates, with the provision that indy was the main priority.

Weeding out the weak could produce the supermajority previously offered, with a view to provide good governance whilst pursuing indy. Only problem is that if we apply that to the UK GE, it could be close to 100% snp seats challenged

A “ vassal state” is a country subject to the control of another country but not actually occupied by that country. Instead the vassal state pays tribute to the controlling entity and obeys its orders. A “ colony”, of course, is occupied and fully controlled by the colonizer.

Craig @ 15.06.

I don’t doubt that this public forum (WOS) is closely read by both MSM (how often have we seen Stuart’s scoops and facts repeated by journalists) and politicians, Craig.
It’s not so much, I believe, that the present SNP/Green administration and the cabal behind them don’t know in how low esteem they are held by the general public, far less independence supporters … it’s just that they don’t care.
Truly they hold us in contempt and we therefore return the compliment !
As for the remaining SNP supporters and Sturgeonistas, sooner or later they’ll find the truth of the saying, “The hypocrite despises those whom (s)he deceives”.

Neil Gray is the health secretary. There’s not an ounce of compassion in his face. He’s like a petulant child by ignoring Ash Regan.

You can tell he goes home and beats his wife. He’s got that vibe about him. A misogynist to his core. If he’s not an obnoxious gay man. So out of touch with Scotland and her needs.

Fuck him.

Ash Regan is brilliant.

No Neil Gray will never demonstrate progress on Scottish Independence. He hates Scottish Independence. His face is like fiz!

You can tell Neil Gray sits at home and calls Ash Regan a terf – to his secret male partner – you can tell these things just by looking at the baldy bastard. He’s got that angry male look about him.

This guy should never be a politician or a health secretary. He is so blatantly incapable of compassion of listening and compromising and accepting other belief systems.

I fear for Scotland’s children with Neil Gray – No independence for Scotland with the puberty blocker Neil Gray.

Neil Gray – Got the violent male look about him. Probably dresses up in leather and fetish gear with patrick harvie.

There’s no rehabilitating the SNP is there?

Absolutely NOT. I’ll never vote for you sex pests. You creeps again.

I hope Neil Gray reads this. No rehabilitation for your party of chalatans thieves and crooks. You’re the worst kind of people.

I wouldn’t trust you. I will never be fooled again!

And that includes Kate Forbes!

Sarwar saying in interview today that Graeme McCormack has the numbers (100+names/20branches) and there may be a contest.
Also being claimed elsewhere on YouTube. Interesting.

Elizabeth @ 16.42.

Latest media reports I’ve seen report that Police Scotland is investigating potential reset of stolen, or unlawfully obtained, property; although no names have been disclosed.

How about we avoid the single point of failure that a uni-party for independence creates and, if not a thousand flowers bloom, then at least let’s have a selection of parties that can represent the aspirations of different segments of the population.

Who knows, if a party that represents the interests of farmers arose, then the 50% of the population who are not so keen on the SNP’s vision of a progressive, green gulag might see that there are people who put the needs of the country first. All of it.

I don’t understand why WoS thinks wee Eck is a nice guy maybe its because its run by a man and not a female civil servant from Bute House. This odious man is was wasting millions of our money converting Governors House into a private castle for himself rather than keep paying the less than a quid rent for Bute House thankfully his referendum failure saved us from his ego.

What can you say to an idiot out of step with the Scottish population, nothing really,

Paul Oliver.

You type shit.

From the English propaganda machine the BBC, (Circa 2011).

“The first minister could move to a new official residence because of the rising cost of refurbishment work on his current property.

Alex Salmond lives at Bute House in Edinburgh’s Charlotte Square but civil servants are looking at “a number of options” for an alternative.

Mr Salmond has been advised that moving into a building owned by the Scottish government could keep costs down.”

The cost of refurbishing Bute House, for which a commercial rent is paid to the National Trust for Scotland, could reach £3.5m.

It is understood the Georgian townhouse needs to be refurbished to upgrade disabled access and security.

“However, no final proposals have been developed by officials, and therefore no decision has been taken.”

He added: “The first minister is extremely fond of Bute House as a place to showcase Scotland. However, in the current financial climate, we have to pay careful attention to any proposal which substantiates a more cost effective option.”

Asked about the prospect of moving, Mr Salmond added: “I’d have to see the figures, I’d have to see the bottom line, but I’m certain that whatever happens no doubt the civil servants will find somewhere for me to rest my head.”

In my personal opinion, this “hatred” against Mr Salmond roots on the visits of Theresa May to Scotland in 2016 and then 2017:

“Theresa May visits Scotland to press case for ‘special union’” (the Guardian, 15 July 2016).
“Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon meet ahead of Article 50” (BBV News, 27 March 2017).

I am of the opinion that the first visit of TMay to Scotland was to open negotiations and her second visit in 2017 was to cut a deal.

On 13 March 2017, Sturgeon announced intention to seek a S30 and the SNP launched the crowdfunder for Indyref. In my opinion this was just political posturing from Sturgeon to dupe the voters and perhaps to prompt Theresa May. In my opinion, the prospect of a deal was well underway at that point and, by seeking a S30, what Sturgeon was doing was essentially handing a veto to Theresa May over indyref. I am also of the opinion this was agreed.

Soon after May’s second visit, she called a general election (18 April 2017). It is my personal opinion that, during that second meeting, calling an early GE was discussed and also that one of the main objectives of this was to remove Mr Salmond from Westminster and to thin down the SNP representation in WEstminster, of which, in my own personal opinion, Sturgeon was complicit.

This is based on the fact that STurgeon continued to deny that a vote for the SNP was a vote for independence, despite the SNP having record membership figures, a re-energised yes movement, being in a position to win again and both FFA and the first request for S30 had been denied.

More things hint towards this:

May 2017 – “Leader Patrick Harvie hints that supporters should postpone push for independence and focus on stopping Tory landslide – The Scottish Green leader has urged supporters to consider a tactical vote for Labour or the Liberal Democrats if their candidates have a better chance of stopping the Tories” The Guardian, 19 May 2017

Harvie was at all practical effects thinning down the pro-independence vote.

In June 2017 the SNP drops the fundraiser for the referendum ahead of schedule and before reaching the target, suggesting they never had an intention to hold a referendum.

The tone of Sturgeon’s speeches changed in strength against brexit and pro-independence strength after that second visit.

And then we have this:

May 2017 – “Ruth Davidson won’t like to admit borrowing from the SNP playbook, but there has been something almost Salmond-esque in her boasting that her party will take seats from the nationalists on June 8. Ms Davidson had already predicted a Portillo moment in Moray, the home of SNP deputy leader Angus Robertson, but now seems to think that Gordon is within her grasp”
The Scotsman, 9 May 2017.

It was obvious Mr Salmond had already been targeted for eviction. This is bizarre. He was not the leader of the party, Sturgeon was. It does not make sense to target Mr Salmond in 2017 but not Sturgeon in 2016 or 2021 for tactical voting unless Sturgeon was already on their side. Also, if Mr Salmond was in Westminster, he had direct access to that absolute majority of SNP MPs.

Needless to say that the quality of the speeches in Westminster and the quality of the opposition decreased enormously when Mr Salmond left.

That Mr Salmond’s seat and not Sturgeon’s was targeted for tactical voting to me hints towards his eviction from Westminster being very much a calculated and planned for move and one where both Sturgeon and the BE colluded.

The fact that the SNP, civil servants, the press, the national broadcaster and the crown office were involved on this directly or indirectly, suggests active intervention from the BE.

In July 2017 Mr Salmond “reveals he will stand again in future election” (The National, 13 july 2017)

I think this was the turning point that set Mr Salmond’s faith in motion. In my opinion this was the point when the emergency smearing plan against him was deployed. But this “new plan” represented a departure in the level of risk and its assessment and mitigation. The targeting of Mr Salmond’s seat with tactical voting was clean. Left no trace. This however contrasts with the incredibly dirty, unprofessional and amateurish way the complaints procedure plan was deployed, leaving elephant-size footprints and piles of waste everywhere. That points, in my opinion, to a departure from the original strategy and it being more a fire-fighting operation than a carefully planned strategy.

31 October 2017 – “Ministers order a review of the Scottish government’s “policies and processes for addressing inappropriate conduct”

To me, that all these events above are linked is obvious.

I am convinced Sturgeon offered Scotland as the sacrificial lamb to the BE at some point in 2014, so the UK elites could have their brexit in exchange of something like FFA, rebranded as FFResponsibility. This was actually part of the SNP’s 2015 manifesto. FFA should have been delivered in line with the vow. Considering the landslide victory that was expected for the SNP, Sturgeon should have been much more ambitious than that. But she never actually fought publicly against the deception that the vow was. That only FFA was in the manifesto, in my view, points to Sturgeon having already settled with some kind of deal in the pipeline. Whatever that deal, it was short of independence and therefore Mr Salmond stood in the way of it.

I am also of the opinion the GE2017 was agreed with STurgeon and had as one of the commonly agreed objectives to eject Mr Salmond from his seat.

It is obvious to me Sturgeon never pursued independence. There are records already in 2015, the day after the GE, hinting at Sturgeon and Johnson considering negotiating a deal:

“At an event hosted by the think-tank Reform Scotland, Ms Sturgeon said she had not had many dealings with Mr Johnson, who is widely expected to be the next Prime Minister.
But she recalled walking beside him the day after the 2015 general election, at the VE Day commemorations in London.
She said: “Boris and I walked along together and I think he said something to me like – I’m not directly quoting here for the journalists in the room – but it was something that was along the lines of, ‘So Nicola, full fiscal autonomy – does that kind of buy you guys off?’”
The context around the remarks is not clear, but Ms Sturgeon joked it would be the “starting point” of her relationship with Mr Johnson if he secures the top job. – Johnson asked Sturgeon showing Sturgeon and Johnson already ”
the Herald, 18 June 2019

I am of the opinion Sturgeon was dirty well before that. Her words: “A vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence nor a vote for a referendum”, rendered the SNP worthless. The presence of Mr Salmond in Westminster threatened that too.

I am also one of those “conspiracy theorists” who does not believe the official 2014 ref result. I am convinced yes won, by a narrow margin, but won. It is the only way things like 2015 landslide for the SNP, a narrow majority pro-independence vote, Sturgeon’s infamous words “a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence nor even a vote for a referendum”, the desperate attempts by Brown and Cameron to remove from our minds the possibility of another referendum, the conspiracy against Mr Salmond, the enormous efforts the sNP continues to make today against his rehabilitation and against progression towards independence, and the de-democratisation of the SNP and ring-fencing of its membership from having any say in the direction of travel of their party, make any sense.

There is no longer a reason to keep the SNP in our parliamentary seats. They have become an obstacle to Scotland’s independence and they need to go. All of them.

Lets try this again.

Even if he does win the contest he won’t be FM just leader of the SNP, still surely that would better than the current lot.

“Graeme McCormick – a retired solicitor who has served as Convener of SNP’s Dumbarton branch – was at the All Under One Banner march in Glasgow on Saturday seeking to gather the required support to stand for leader.

It is understood McCormick believes he is very likely to receive the 100 nominations from at least 20 SNP branches before the Monday deadline.”

McCormick previously highlighted in an exclusive interview with The National that he felt the route to independence lay in international treaties – a motion for which was rejected at last year’s conference, where he also unsuccessfully ran for SNP president.

The activist still appears to believe this route is the way forward for independence.

In a letter to The National, McCormick said he wishes to stand because “I know of no potential candidate who is prepared to call an early Holyrood election”.

“Central to the campaign is that a majority vote will result in the SNP MPs being instructed to dissolve the union, establish the sovereign government of Scotland, advise the UN that the union is ended and that Scotland will adhere to the terms of the Vienna Convention on the dissolution of a former state,” he wrote.

“Under international law, this is the “how” of delivering our nation statehood.”

New poll says Alba on 4%. If the SNP leadership [for want of a better word] continues to piss off pro-indy voters they, the pro-indy voters, will have no option but to kick the SNP into the long grass. It’s amazing how the SNP leadership couldn’t care less about pro-indy voters or independence. Swinney and others like Gray are taking these voters for granted and fully expect them to vote SNP anyway. Have they forgotten what happened in the Rutherglen and Hamilton West by-election?

May the (once) good ship SNP founder upon the skerries with the loss of all hands.

Absolute shower of feckless, oxygen-thieving charlatans.

Independence for Scotland!
SNP Out!

Mia @ 6.22, you haven’t explained why they were so determined to keep Salmond out.

I gave an explanation of this on the previous thread. I believe at the root of everything is political blackmail of some sort. I point out that May came up through the Home Office which has direct control over MI5.

Britain was in a very precarious position after the Brexit vote. It’s very easy to imagine that the British Government would have gone to any lengths to keep a lid on Scottish nationalism with so much hanging in the balance.

Scotland pushing for independence at that time could have tipped the balance and turned the disaster of Brexit into utter calamity, with the UK seat on the security council, confidence in the economy, Sterling, and everything that matters on the line.

You really couldn’t exaggerate what a desperate position the UK was in back then.

As for Sturgeon, I think there’s a distinct and discernible change in her character, approach, and priorities after this period. I believe she was genuinely interested in independence up to this point and genuinely saw Brexit as a potential game-changer. It was.

I think it would be very easy to make a case for saying she turned from being a politician that was sincerely committed to forwarding the cause of independence to one that really did everything possible to destroy that cause.

And for what it’s worth, I think the mechanism that was triggered in 2017 that resulted in the dramatic change in approach is still in play today; I think it explains a lot, In particular the brazen determination to keep Alba and others at bay, and making sure the leadership of the SNP doesn’t fall into the hands of anyone that will seriously pursue independence.

Good luck to Graeme McCormick. I hope he’s friends with Alex Salmond.

Nasty Nicola Sturgeon won’t like that.

Good luck to the man in the grey kilt. I hope he beats the men in the green skirts.

The Scottish nonse party that Neil Gray enjoys nonsing the children of Scotland with in his nonsey horrible child hating and woman hating cesspit of corruption.

Get Swinney out now!

There is no behaviour in Scotland more disgraceful, than that of an SNP politician. Under investigation for massive scale fraud, charges of embezzlement. Sexual offenses a culture of cover up – Just ask Patrick Grady and Derek Mackay! Which Blackford of course – who’s traded his wife in for an older model.. Haha.

Neil Gray – if his wife doesn’t know. She will now. His behaviour. If only she knew what he got upto in London while he was a way! If only she knew about his behaviour of him and his sleezy party.

If only! He’ll not last at all. He’ll not last at all!

You get back what you give out Neil Gray. I’ll tell you that for a fact.

Your friends in London are all going to lose their jobs. Allison Thewliss and the rest – decapitate terfs – the women of Scotland don’t forgive. And they don’t forget.

We know what you’re like. We know what you and your crooked ilk are like!

SNP OUT NOW!

the dogs bark,the caravan moves on.
not my circus, not my monkeys.
Scotland, wake up! You need new blood, the old order is dead.

If any of you are still SNP members vote for Graeme McCormack as he is really for independence. It could be there is no coronation for John Swinney after all.

It’s a bit rich Gray talking about ‘rehabilitation’ . When his party are being investigated for financial irregularities. And there are several high ranking MPs and MSps who’s sexual pecadilos would turn your grannies hair blue.

Can anyone on here tell me the Alba party policy on Freeports in Scotland?

If Salmond is finished politically,because the MSM have painted him as a monster and wont let him come back. Then he might as well just exact revenge on all the liars in the SNP. I am not sure he has anything to lose now.

Hatuey

“Scotland pushing for independence at that time could have tipped the balance and turned the disaster of Brexit into utter calamity, with the UK seat on the security council, confidence in the economy, Sterling, and everything that matters on the line.”

It was the Americans that instructed Brexit.
The Americans wanted the UK to leave because of the UN security seat & they know what was coming to the EU. It’s backfired spectacularly tho. They thought they’d be carving up Rs resources by now. Disappointed.

There is NO hope for the SNP.
If enough members do not back Graeme McCormick I hope that they all rot in hell.
Maybe N Gray’s reaction is a visual proof that the party worked with London to attack AS.

“They would dump their own leader to keep Salmond away from them.”

This!

Geri at 9:05 pm
“It was the Americans that instructed Brexit.
The Americans wanted the UK to leave because of the UN security seat & they know what was coming to the EU. It’s backfired spectacularly tho. They thought they’d be carving up Rs resources by now. Disappointed.“

Oh yeah, I remember them coming round my house and telling me to vote Leave…
What on earth are you on about?

@Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh

Thanks for the Freeport info. That’s about right considering similar things across the world.

Has Forbes ever been questioned on any of these points and why she still agrees with them?

“why they were so determined to keep Salmond out”

From the perspective of the BE and the USA elements’ perspective I think it is rather obvious: Mr Salmond did what they considered the impossible:

1. He brought support for independence from 23% in January 2013 to over 50% (as I said above I do not believe the official line that No won in 2014)

2. He forced the UK gov to concede on Devo Max as the only possible thing that could stop independence albeit temporarily

3. He brought the SNP from the fringes to become the third party in the UK in terms of membership. Considering that Scotland has less than a 10% of England’s population, this is an amazing achievement

4. He set the SNP on course for a landslide – a majority of SNP MPs could very well end the treaty of union at any time.

All this meant that if he was left in place, he would be in a position to deliver independence in no time and the car-crash of brexit offered him the perfect opportunity for this.

From the perspective of Sturgeon and co, it is my personal opinion that they had to get rid of him for two reasons:

1. initially, because halting any pursuit of independence, acquiescence to brexit and transforming the sNP machine into a devolution party might have been part of some deal Sturgeon cut with the BE. In my opinion what she negotiated was mid to long-term implementation of something down the lines of some watered down version of FFA rebranded as full fiscal responsibility. I do not see Mr Salmond acquiescing to that when support for independence is around 50%

2, Secondly, in my opinion, Sturgeon’s animosity against Mr Salmond was a consequence of her own narcissism. Mr Salmond left a hell of a lot of resources at Sturgeon’s disposal to deliver independence: an absolute majority both in Holryood and Westminster, over 100,000 SNP members, support for independence around 50%, a vow quickly being exposed as a huge con and a EU ref on the horizon. With all those resources, FFA or its watered down version FFresponsibility fall well below expectations. Seeing him around only served to remind her of her own failure to capitalise on all those resources. I do not see how a narcissist would be able to stand it.

3. Later on, having to contend with the failure to beat him in court and basically being exposed as a liar and a back-stabber (metaphorically speaking) in the eyes of a sizeable proportion of the yes movement which used to adulate her, must have been unbearable.

As the time went on, the inefficiency and incompetence of Sturgeon in government and her betrayal of the people of Scotland became far too obvious. If you are a narcissist, the idea that you will be remembered as an insignificance who achieved nothing because you are being constantly compared with your predecessor, must be difficult to swallow.

Add to this that she may perceive him as the main reason for many people turning against her – akin of a wife beater telling her “look what you made me do”, and you start to understand why she cannot back down. Backing down now would be having to accept that she was truly outsmarted by the BE.

It is my opinion that at some point already in 2014/early 2015, Sturgeon might have entered some sort of negotiations with the BE for something down the lines of FFA or as they rebranded it Full fiscal Responsibility.

But delivery of that might have been conditional to never again holding a referendum or campaigning in a way that would show the level of support for independence in Scotland. In other words, transform the SNP into a devolutionist party.

I think they knew Mr Salmond would never settle for that and why they needed him out.

“I believe at the root of everything is political blackmail of some sort. I point out that May came up through the Home Office which has direct control over MI5”

I am sure you are absolutely right and there is an element of that. In fact, it is my opinion that the alphabetes and the elements in the SnP and Sturgeon’s gov that got involved in the Salmond case are now fully dependent on the protection from the BE, which is holding over them operation branchform and exposure as the sword of damocles.

But my gut feeling and the sly way Sturgeon has behaved, the desperation to push Mr Salmond out of politics above anything else, and then the intervention of so many elements of the BE in the stitch up of Mr Salmond tells me they were all colluding, ie they were following an agreed plan.

“Britain was in a very precarious position after the Brexit vote. It’s very easy to imagine that the British Government would have gone to any lengths to keep a lid on Scottish nationalism with so much hanging in the balance”

I totally agree and I am sure elements of MI5 are in control of the SNP and I would not be surprised if the Greens too.

But in my view, the BE and the Americans saw the risks of brexit well before the EU ref took place. I am of the opinion that the takeover of the SNP started before the 2014 indyref, but it increased its pace afterwards.

“Scotland pushing for independence at that time could have tipped the balance and turned the disaster of Brexit into utter calamity, with the UK seat on the security council, confidence in the economy, Sterling, and everything that matters on the line”

I couldn’t agree more. Should the political fraud Sturgeon really dragged her heels and declared that the triggering of A50 without Scotland’s agreement was unconstitutional violating A50 conditions, and the BE would be absolutely Fkd. Without any trade agreements and totally surrounded by EU countries, and with little left to sell, England would have been isolated and unable to exit the EU.

” I believe she was genuinely interested in independence up to this point and genuinely saw Brexit as a potential game-changer. It was”

In this point we diverge. I am of the opinion you cannot change your principles overnight. In my view Sturgeon was a bad one. She was putting up a performance, but deep down she was a devolutionist through and through.

“And for what it’s worth, I think the mechanism that was triggered in 2017 that resulted in the dramatic change in approach is still in play today”
100% agree with you. Whatever deal they were promised has clearly not been delivered yet and still can revert, hence their frantic attempts to hold on the hand break of independence and keeping Mr Salmond out.

Whatever their reasons, whatever their intentions, whatever their aspirations, it does not matter. What matters is that these people, by accident or by design, have deliberately frustrated independence for the best part of 10 years, have betrayed the people of Scotland and, during that time, they have been enabling the stripping of Scotland from its assets.

Handing the stone of destiny to the English king was, in my view, the ultimate betrayal, the ultimate insult and a sign they were no longer working for Scotland. It also proves they see Scotland as a subjugate to England.

That is, in my view, absolutely unforgivable and unforgettable.

Graeme McCormick – a disappointment that’s for sure. Still, better we find out his unsuitability before rather than after.

Maybe they’ve offered him a cut-price campervan.

Graeme McCormack will have been told he’s going to have his legs broken. Police Scotland will have planted something on him.

He’s been threatened. Quite simply. It’s how Sturgeon operates.

Okay Mia, there are a few sequential issues with what you say but there is one major one that is central to everything — there is no evidence of a rift between Salmond and Sturgeon prior to mid-2017.

There is evidence to suggest that Salmond was quite perturbed by the decision to put independence on the back burner in the general election of that year, though, which fits with my theory that Sturgeon was turned in the first half of 2017 (27th March, 2017, to be precise).

And I suppose the decision to de-prioritise independence in that election is a perplexing one given the mood of the time, the opportunity Brexit provided, and the clear need to create and maintain momentum. That decision was highly suspicious and contradictory but it snugly fits with my “turned” theory.

Your theory has difficulty in explaining Sturgeon’s seemingly sincere determination to use Brexit as a pretext for another referendum, and when she came at that press conference on the day the Brexit result was declared, nobody anywhere doubted her seriousness in suggesting it was time for Scotland to be given the opportunity to think again about the union (in line with the 2015 SNP manifesto which specifically defined a Brexit as a material change and trigger).

In a nutshell, your theory doesn’t explain the dramatic difference we see in Sturgeon prior to the meeting with May in March 2017 as compared to her stance after that meeting, when she decided to de-prioritise independence and totally contradict her previous posture.

I think we are more or less on the same page, though, and I don’t suppose it really matters now.

Nobody should ever underestimate the great lengths the UK Government and all its servants will go to in order to prevent Scotland breaking away. That’s as to be expected, since with Scotland becoming independent they stand to lose so much.

thothscot: “Your posts show a timeline of changes in approach, suggesting FM was turned. What were the reasons for her being turned?”

I don’t understand the question. The reasons from a UK government perspective would revolve around preventing Scottish independence, obviously.

If you are asking me what might have been used to turn her, I have no idea. There are various options one might reach for if one wanted to convince someone of the merits of looking at things differently.

All I know is that Sturgeon seems to have changed around the middle of 2017, on an issue that was all important to her politics.

James Jones

“Oh yeah, I remember them coming round my house and telling me to vote Leave…
What on earth are you on about?”

They didn’t need to come round yer house.

They just flooded the Tories with ‘Dark money’
Adjusted the algorithms across all their social media platforms (Facebook ads etc with vote leave)
Send a memo to the MSM to comply.
Create a *hostile environment to immigration* & even throw in a few terrorist threats/ swarms are coming & bobs yer uncle – fckwits eager to sign up to vote leave. The EU was creating an army LOL. (They already had one, it’s Americas NATO)

You seem awful naive.
Did you learn nothing from the empire?

Look at the absolute mess of the EU economy at the moment. ALL by instruction from the USA. The US vultures have already bought up 404 farmlands, blew up the EUs cheap energy pipelines, instructed them to commit theft, back war criminals & genocide as well as told to boycott china LOL!

They’re being hung out to dry. Von der liar is their plant.
She’s been to the EU what Sturgeon was to the SNP. The kiss of death.

Hatuey

“Your theory has difficulty in explaining Sturgeon’s seemingly sincere determination to use Brexit as a pretext for another referendum, and when she came at that press conference on the day the Brexit result was declared, nobody anywhere doubted her seriousness in suggesting it was time for Scotland to be given the opportunity to think again about the union (in line with the 2015 SNP manifesto which specifically defined a Brexit as a material change and trigger).”

She was clearly buying time which the YES movement ended up giving her.
Shed absolutely no intention of calling a referendum & why she went on to lose 21 seats in 2017. She shat herself & sat back down.

Sturgeon wasn’t a player through indyref. Salmond even said she wasn’t leadership material. (Why he came back & made her deputy in the first place)
Mia is correct. She’s a narcissist. Narcissists hate losing & they definitely don’t like being challenged or forget a slight cause they’re unhinged. Salmond said he was coming back to politics, some say because he was sick of her fcking up Westminster majority & squandering chances (Not just Brexit but power grab, internal market etc) & Emelda & her grubby wee husband couldn’t allow that to happen or Branchform would’ve happened a lot sooner & they’d both be jailed by now.
It’s Angus Robertson who gave her absolute power over the party. He’s the plant. Questions need addressed on why he saw fit to do that. The party was doing fine until he gave them full control of the party & all it’s branches & conferences. Two eejits that couldn’t run a bath.

VLADIMIR: Suppose we repented.
ESTRAGON: Repented what?
VLADIMIR: Oh . . . (he reflects) We wouldn’t have to go into the details.
— From Beckett’s ‘Waiting for Godot’
________________
VLADIMIR: Et si on repentait ?
ESTRAGON: De quoi ?
VLADIMIR: Eh bien . . . (Il cherche). On n’aurait pas besoin d’entrer dans les détails.
— Extrait de ‘En Attendant Godot’, de Beckett
________________
(Above quotes appear as frontispiece notes in the English and the French version of Alasdair Gray’s LANARK)

Sturgeon put a hypothetical bill in for a referendum knowing it could be challenged and defeated in the Supreme Court. That was her ticking a box and putting independence to bed. She could say “look I tried”.

If she was serious she would have put the actual bill through first, and dared WM to strike it down. This was not naivity, it was calculated to fail. She didn’t want a referendum or a fight with WM.

This is why the SNP are so dangerous. Her people are still running the party. Swinney doesn’t want independence. But they are wasting years of people’s lives and endangering all our futures.

Whatever else you do. Do not feel guilty about not voting SNP and letting SLAB in. Because they are both the same British parties.

Geri, there’s no evidence that Sturgeon was faking her commitment to independence prior to 2017. I’d be willing to bet that everybody here was more or less satisfied with her immediate response to Brexit and that nobody suspected she was being insincere when she said it represented a trigger for indyref2. Consider this an invitation to prove otherwise…

As for the narcissist label, that goes without saying with most politicians. She definitely was. The “I’m with Nicola” slogan on the election pamphlet of 2015 testifies to that. But you can be a narcissist and support independence, and there’s no contradiction in that.

Actually, when you think about it, narcissism would probably make you more susceptible to political pressure, blackmail, and rewards or bribes, not less susceptible.

socrates macsporran
5 May, 2024 at 3:34 pm

“Alex Salmond is our de Gaulle. He should, given the downright hatred of him at the top of the SNP, perhaps leave the day-to-day business of Alba to the likes of Ash Regan, Neale Hanvey and Kenny MacAskill, instead focussing his energies on winning his court cases which will finally silence the character assassination and finish-off the Tractors inside the SNP.”

As the Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

“The only remotely positive outcome we can see from the last week’s events is that Alba might finally, belatedly realise that their strategy of co-operation with the SNP will never, ever work.

The SNP are not only Alba’s enemy in a direct political sense, they are also the enemy of the independence movement as a whole. They are a bloated, rotten corpse blocking its path.”

There is a very quick and easy way of clearing Alex Salmond once and for all and at the same time burning the rotten corpse blocking independence.

All that is needed is for MacAskill or Hanvey to stand up in the House of Commons and name all Salmond’s accusers.

It is time for massive grassroots pressure to be put on them to just do it.

There has been a debate BTL in a number of previous topics about whether Kate ‘Freeports’ Forbes is the ‘great white saviour’ that can turn around the SNP to be an independence party again and I’ve been meaning to comment on it.

When looking at Alex Salmond recently on TV, it’s hard not to compare him to her.

While Salmond has only been given the air of publicity by certain parts of the media in order to try to get him to discredit the SNP, he speaks of his opposition to SNP policies in a sincere and conciliatory manner.

He also avoids this trap and changes the narrative of the interview by pushing it i the direction of independence which is what he and his supporters want him to talk about.

Contrasting this to the media presence of Freeports Forbes, apart from a few scripted reference to independence, she sounds no different from the bland, media polished young political class that is seen throughout the world.

To be fair, the problem that Freeports Forbes faces is that she has to deal with problems that has been caused by the policies of her own party.

For me, Independence is supposed to be about a solution to Scottish problems as well as a bulwark against the excesses of the neo-liberal Westminster system. In essence, it is a vision that is different from the Status quo but also workable for a modern, mature Western democracy.

There is no way that the likes of Freeports Forbes can talk to the people of Scotland about independence being a positive option when her own party is implementing policies that are no different from those pursued by Westminster.

Again using the issue of Trans as an example, the SNP could have been arguing that independence could having been a bulwark against the social liberalism being passively tolerated by the Tory government but pursing a more aggressive policy which are making people actually feel safer under the Westminster system.

Ultimately, no SNP politician can further the argument of independence towards the Scottish population as long as they pursue policies that undermine the argument.

An excellent piece pointing out just how absurd the SNP rejection of the ALBA party ideas was. And still, the unelected greens know they have full control of the SNP.

The sad fact is, that the SNP since, and during, Sturgeon as leader, has been nothing like the fiercely pro independence party Alex Salmond shaped. The party that brought Scotland so close to independence.

The current SNP is a sham independence party – just as it was for decades upon decades. Working WITH London, to act as a ‘lightning rod’ for pro independence sentiment. A place where Scottish people who wanted rid of English rule, could essentially tread water, over and over again. That ‘promise’ of independence always stated as tantalisingly close, but somehow, magically, never to be delivered.

It is England’s finest creation. Like other shame ‘independence’ parties all through the English colonial history. A tool of English tyranny over Scots.

Oh, yes, the SNP will ‘condemn’, and ‘complain’ and ‘argue’ with London, but that is for show. All part of the act.

Meanwhile, England can continue asset-stripping Scotland, stealing OUR wealth for England’s benefit. The SNP MSP stooges sit in Holyrood, knowing full well they have zero intention of ever pushing for independence, unlike Alex Salmond. And that’s the real issue isn’t it?

When the ilk of Neil Gray talks of ‘rehabilitating’ Alex Salmond, the real problem he means is that Alex Salmond STILL wants to fight for independence, and hence he can never be allowed into Scottish politics.

The SNP, the pretendy independence party.

First time I have seen this Gray guy.

He is a VERY dislikeable individual and a total fraud standing as an MP of an Independence party.

Much like the SNP itself these days. They all gotta go.

I mind Brexit well.

It caused a stushie at the time, largely among those in the professional chattering classes who are well paid to cause stushies.

Then along came Covid and The War, and by comparison to either, Brexit was seen to be the fart in the teacup it always was.

Everywhere apart from here, obviously.

I see the pound is around the 1.16 Euro mark, just as it has been for years. I can’t help thinking those forever banging on about the wrecked UK economy and the crashed EU economy are being a smidge hysterical.

When Theresa May said :”now is not the time”. I genuinely believe Sturgeon had no answer to that. She is such a poor strategist, she had no mechanism in place to counter WM saying no.

She just walked into a trap and made herself look silly. Instead she should have gone in with a step plan to allow Scots a vote, and before Brexit happened.

One way to do it was calling a Scottish election based on independence. Westminster would have crumbled before it took place. Let’s face it Theresa May was there for the taking, and the SNP had 59 MPs.

Sturgeon was a terrible leader. You can’t go into a negotiation with only one hand to play. Even school kids know that.

I think this excellent piece of journalism, link below, will be relevant still for some time. The Employment Tribunal decision is likely to offer criticism of ERCC.

link to holyrood.com

Questions for Jo Swi, redacted

@dan

Thanks for the link to Daisy Walker’s timeline.

Big Jock

I think it was Scott (poster on here) who said she could have instructed a backbencher to write & present an indyref2 bill to Holyrood that wouldn’t be blocked by the presiding officer. She chose not to use that method either.

There is plenty of evidence she wasn’t interested in indyref2. She was a gradualist & a devolutionist & wasn’t even good at that because we got fck all but selfies & book recommendations while Holyrood was being stripped of powers.

An absolute waste of everyone’s time. Achieved hee haw & can’t even blag the baby box cause even that was someone else’s idea. 10 yrs of zero. Wonder what her book will be about? LOL! How to kill a movement stone deid & hopefully failing at that too.

John Curtice nails it.

link to thenational.scot

“…getting rid of the First Minister.

He said: “You don’t want to do that if you’re in opposition and the guy in front of you is not very good. You want to keep him hanging on a thread.”

Curtice further said that Yousaf had been “relatively unpopular, relatively weak” and this had actually benefitted both Labour and the Tories…

…On Swinney’s ability to connect with the public, Curtice added: “Swinney’s expertise, I think, is being able to say nothing for three minutes. Definitely who you want as your deputy but it’s not the person to front an election campaign.”

He was scathing about Yousaf’s press conference on Monday, saying the speech was “terrible”.

He added: “It was very self-regarding. Theresa May could do a better job.””

FFS. That’s it then another two-years wasted with Swinney at the helm.

“An SNP activist who planned to challenge John Swinney for the party’s leadership has pulled out of the running.

Graeme McCormick said that he had enough nominations from party branches to trigger a contest but decided not to proceed with his nomination after having a “fruitful conversation” with Swinney. It means that Swinney is set to be crowned SNP leader on Monday afternoon as he is the only candidate.”

I’m with you Geri,

Add in No Road or Bridge Tolls
No Hospital Parking Charges for visitors
Free further Education- For University this saves over £27,000 on a 3 year course
Best performing A & E
57% of Scots pay less tax than in England. I pay more and happy to do so.No hungry kids.
Free travel passes for students and over 60’s. Welsh Labour dropping this.

Vote Labour or Tory and wipe all of this out in the pretend we are all in it together garbage.

There have been very good policies here but lately the Trans and Hate Crime Aspectd have gone right off the planet.

Separation of powers.

Why should the SNP leader be an elected parliamentary politician?
Elect the leader, president or preces by popular party member ballot, the chosen then being the guardian of its aims and constitution.
Why should there be a single «leader», why not a triumvirate, praesidium ot the like so as no «clique» dominates.

The off course crisis in the SNP originates in the parliamentary party having too much, proven unaccountable, power to play with.
Independence has been victim of parliamentary party «indifference».

Breeks: “Not me. Sturgeon has always been a crushing disappointment, from the moment she became leader.

Okay. Show me a comment or article by you written prior to 2017 that slates Sturgeon in the sort of terms you describe.

You won’t. You would struggle to find anyone on the Indy side criticising her prior to 2017.

Regardless, most were happy with Sturgeon until 2017. Her immediate response to Brexit was well received amongst Yes voters, etc.

Only when Sturgeon changed did we change towards her.

Graeme McCormick has undoubtedly put in some serious effort over the years with an example being his traveling round Scotland visiting YES groups giving talks to showcase his AGR proposal. I’ve often wondered why Graeme has stayed in the NuSNP so long. He’s obviously an intelligent individual capable of interpreting and collating detailed information to put together his Annual Ground Rent proposal.
But year on year it gets no serious consideration at his chosen Party’s conference.
Is he oblivious to how his chosen Party has been captured and its constitution altered, and all past attempts by very committed Indy-minded members and activists to try to counter this malignant takeover have come to nothing because of the way his Party’s elite have stitched up all options to redress the power imbalance that the cliquey cabal now hold over the wider membership.
If quite so many can see how awful the NuSNP has become then why can’t he?
I’m at the point of thinking that anyone left in the NuSNP is now at it in some way. Graeme’s quick in and out leadership challenge has just helped identify any remaining dissenting voices faction in the Party that isn’t aligned with the gravy swilling swinefest of devolutionist (aka Unionist) Swinneyists…

Hatuey
Ignored says:
6 May, 2024 at 11:04 am

Only when Sturgeon changed did we change towards her.

Aah – the fall to the dark side. What happened? Seduced by the dark side of the force or just a naughty girl from the go that eventually got found out? The empire strikes back.

The only explanation that I can think of is that she was seriously compromised by some event(s) in the past and that the UK establishment got to her. The UK media went through the motions of course, but suspiciously gave her an easy ride (even built her up at times) which suggests that she was already owned by the time that she took the reigns.

There may be other explanations of course, but that’s the most plausible IMO.

Ooh the irony !
On the one year anniversary of the coronation of King Charles, we have the chance to celebrate the coronation of Mr Swinney on his ascension to the rule of Scotland.

There’s only two things that’d keep anyone in the NuSNP.
One is salary. The other is the rainbow flag.

That’s it.

There’s nothing else going for it.

Salmonds ideas have all dried up now. Replaced by Mickey Mouse side issues the majority do not want or even asked for but will be implemented anyway to please the empire remaining in a dead end.

Unionists vote for the SNP. There was no clearer example of that than when Ash presented a plebiscite. They all fell over themselves to howl how unfair that’d be.

Hatuey

I suggest you watch some Phantom Power vids. Plenty complaining of no action. I can think of Allen Bissett. He had her card stamped in 2016. She was a gradualist. A devolutionist & a waste of everyone’s time. So much so at one point he thought Corbyn would be better to deliver a ref than Sturgeon was.

She was fcking about with selfies while watching powers being stripped from Holyrood & the fake internal market bill.

She didn’t throw a deaf ear. She was allowing time for it to be implemented while she watched two mandates expire. Brexit vote & the mandate to trigger indyref2. That wasn’t by accident.

“Now is not the time” wasn’t Mayhems to give. Sturgeon had two mandates. Three if you want to include Holyrood election at that time.

Umm “Now is not the time for democracy” doesn’t have the same ring to it but that was what she was accepting.

Effigy.

Agreed. Once unionists live with unionist policies the better. It may shut them up once reality kicks in with the added benefit of hitting their pocket.

“Show me the money” lol!
Aye, okay. Haud oan tae yer bank statements…

Weapons don’t buy themselves ya know…

Hatuey @ 11:04 am

“You would struggle to find anyone on the Indy side criticising her prior to 2017”

This article from 2017 implies criticism of the SNPs lack of action over Scotland’s enforced Brexit and disrespect of successive electoral mandates to hold a further referendum. It is also perhaps more importantly the initial contemporary analysis of Scotland’s treatment and condition as effectively a colony of England which our enforced Brexit and various other factors indicated.

link to newsnet.scot

A potential upside to the current excuse for a political party that is the SNP, is that, if they were to lose the next Scottish election, this could/should lead to a complete clear out of the old guard, replaced by a more radical independence party. Not being in Government, they could then revert to their proper role as an insurgency party, pointing out Westminster and Holyrood shortcomings and promote the cause of independence unfettered by the need to also Govern. They could spend the duration of the parliament promoting the cause of independence with the promise that, if elected at the next Scottish election they will immediately declare Scotland independent.

@Geri says: 6 May, 2024 at 12:02 pm

“Once unionists live with unionist policies the better”

Erm.

You’re the one banging on about everybody in HR being a plant, a tractor, etc. and doing London’s job for them.

Do you have any logical arguments at all?

What’s your beef with fracking? It used to be Scotland’s Oil, remember? I don’t remember being asked if I wanted Scotland to go all green virtue signalling.

I’m with the Scottish descended next POTUS: “Drill, baby, drill”.

As for weapons, it’s high time Scotland got some decent manufacturing jobs back. Arms and ammunition have always been well paid employment opportunities. I expect that the many Scots who would welcome some well paying jobs won’t be keen on purists like you sniffily telling them to stay on the dole.

And nobody is threatening the SNHS. You just made that up.

The greatest creation of England recently was the pretence of Scottish Devolution. And a supreme court,

It installs two sets of laws over Scottish people compared to England, but England is still able to step in and control the Devolved parliament when it needs too,

Good examples are during Brexit, the Barnett formula, Free ports, Referendums, the control over more devolved powers to Scotland or (not).
Tories are registered and are able to be voted in both sides of the border, labour the same both sides of the border, as are lib dems and greens both sides of the border
Civil servants in the devolved government to control the political parties in Scotland.
And the Supreme Court used for removing Scotland right to self determination. And the Claim of Right, when required, for the likes of trade or when Alex Salmond managed to make The SNP the third biggest party in Westminster it had to be controlled and knocked back with the help of those civil servants.

Everything set up in the devolved government behind the scenes to control, stymie and prevent Scotland taking issues into their own hands,

The one controlling factor over Scotland setting up double standards

So Swinney has been coronated as the SNP leader and FM, I wonder what BS he told McCormack to make him stepdown or was it all just a ruse to start with.

If McCormack was serious about being the next SNP leader, what did Swinney say to make him change his mind, more to the point does anyone actually believe that Swinney will genuinely attempt to achieve independence, No? nor do I.

C’mon Operation Branchform (Police Scotland) do your f*kin job and arrest and rearrest and charge the clique that’s holding the progression of Scottish independence back.

The same applies to the COPFS we’re f*ckin watching.

More than likely it will be another two-years of identity politic s forced up us will Scotland falls apart at the seams.

I have now read almost three complete books, big books tae, on what is known of the mysterious Picts and by internet standards am now an expert on such matters.

One thing I discovered is that modern theory postulates that it was the Vikings who killed the Kings of the Picts, but not the general populace.

And although a haunfu of Scots with an agenda, in an attempt to curry favour with the Pope of the day who mistakenly thought of the Picts as barbarians, claimed to have killed-off the Picts, modern theory suggests the Scotti and the Picts amalgamated in common cause – that of Christianity.

Apparently the Picts were the first people documented to have believed in an immortal soul and many of their beliefs, which pre-dated Christianity by some measure of time, fitted neatly into the Christian faith.

So it would seem the Picts are still with us. Indeed many of us might be direct descendants.

By the way, the ancient Greeks are documented as saying that much of their initial enlightenment was founded on the teachings and beliefs of the ancient Picts. That makes complete sense to me. Being a ScotPict and all.

I’m with Alf Baird on this matter – when independence is achieved we should immediately rename Scotland to Pictland.

I thought i saw mccormick leaving edinburgh in a campervan

Seems like a remarkable coincidence that with Branchform charges coming for Murrell and the Misfeasance action due to start for Sturgeon, that this should be the precise moment to change the First Minister.

Humza (inexplicably violently) withdrew from the BHA and was surgically replaced by the person who put Murrell in place.

With the COPFS reporting to the Lord Advocate and the Lord Advocate serving at the First Minister’s pleasure, who better to fight a defensive battle than Swinney?

Was Humza too hapless to be relied on to play an interference role?

The SNP’s destruction is of no importance to them.

You’re wasting your time on this thread, Twathater.

You would be far better employed on the new thread. Get on there and boast about how much extra taxes you want to pay so that the Scottish NHS and other Scottish government-funded gravy trains can throw puberty blockers at Scottish kids.

And your dildo fetish will “fit right in”. Mind you don’t lose it.