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The Circus Of Hate

Posted on May 09, 2024 by

Well, what a nice statement of unity and tolerance this is:

And only slightly undermined by coming from THIS guy:

But Smith’s new message of tolerance hasn’t fully penetrated the party ranks.

Dovydas Kuliešas used to work for Emma Roddick MSP, who until yesterday was the minister responsible for the grotesque “conversion practices” legislation being developed by the SNP, and we gather he’s now a member of the staff of Westminster SNP MP Alison Thewliss, who alert readers may recall from her role in the infamous “DECAPITATE TERFS” trans protest at Buchanan Steps in Glasgow last year.

He’s also a member of the SNP Socialists group run by serial opportunist carpetbagger Cllr Graham Campbell (no relation), and one of the founders of the po-faced Student Grant masturbation collective Our Republic, a handy one-stop gathering of Scotland’s worst living beings.

And just a few days ago he posted this on Medium:

Attention-grabbing opening, isn’t it? Let’s carry on.

Whoever could he mean?

We know who it sounds like – the cadre of hyper-intolerant “progressive” young activists we call the Twitler Youth, to whom everything is “bigotry” and “phobia”s and who endlessly scream for the expulsion from the party of people like Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine and Kate Forbes – but we rather suspect it isn’t.

Ah, of course. It’s old people.

And indeed specifically old men, with their “old man computers”, sliding into “abject psychotropic decline” and refusing to accept that children can “choose their own puberty”. THOSE total bastards.

(Let’s not be distracted by the flat-out and potentially-defamatory lie that Alex Salmond was a “paid Russian Government employee”. That’s a matter for Mr Salmond.)

Those people need to be told that their “time” is “over”, whatever that might mean precisely. (Expulsion? Exile? Euthanasia? Execution?) We’re not told what the cutoff age is under which you’re allowed to continue to be a member of the SNP, or perhaps of Scottish society in general, but we can probably pretty safely assume that since it’s “the Scottish youth” who hold the only acceptable, “decent” views, it’s going to be 30 at the absolute most.

This is pretty constant messaging from the party’s youth wing. Last month we watched an interview with SNP activist Cameron Greer, who when asked to give a message to the wider independence movement told them that only young people should be listened to because their opinions mattered more than anyone else’s, and that if anyone wasn’t sure what opinions to have, just ask some young people.

Young Cameron fronts his own show, menacingly called “We Are The Future”.

Because, y’know, tomorrow belongs to them.

But back to young Dovydas. He wants you to know that your grandchildren – because everyone over 30 has grandchildren, right? – think you’re a “terrible person” and find you “disgusting” like all your “fellow old fogies” because you don’t have the same opinion as the kids.

The idea that you might dare to have your OWN opinion, rather than simply aspiring to comply with that of your grandkids, isn’t even fleetingly contemplated. Or perhaps it’s part of your “incessant whining”.

As Dovydas is clearly a huge fan of the Scottish Greens, we’re not sure why he’s so furious at what he anticipates as a flood of voters moving to them.

Surely that would only increase the likeliness of a future SNP/Green pact committed to all his priorities, and help to reverse the “fuckup of megastrophic proportions” that the collapse of the Bute House Agreement represented, and thereby help to guard against a return to the days of the old-style SNP, which was apparently a party of “various assorted creeps, perennial pains in the hoop, Putin apologists, downright scumbags [and] fucking weirdos”?

Readers, if we took all the easy shots that line sets up we’d be here all day. But the thing Dovydas wants to make super-clear is that if you don’t agree with every single one of his decent and progressive and self-evidently correct – ie they’re held by the young – views, then “people like you can’t be listened to”, (his emphasis) on account of your “utterly dogshit, broken-vehicle, farts-for-words, unreality based nerdery”.

(It’s a tiny bit bold for someone whose bio goes on about Dungeons And Dragons dice to be accusing anyone else of “nerdery”, but we’ll let it pass.)

Indeed, to make sure you’re not listened to, if you’re one of the considerable number of SNP politicians/members who wanted the BHA ended, you simply “should never be allowed to speak again”.

The rant has been warmly welcomed by Dovydas’ peers – many of whom, ironically, are rather close to Alyn Smith.


It was even tweeted by Irish artist Dr Robert Bohan to his 304,000 Twitter followers, although as Dr Bohan is 54 years old we hope he’s aware that his continued existence is a barely-tolerated affront to the dynamic new generation, permitted only so long as he continues to hold all the allowable opinions determined on a weekly basis by the Committee Of The Revolution.

Conversely, we gather that it’s already been reported as a hate crime by some concerned citizens, given that it fairly clearly appears to incite hatred on the basis of age, one of the protected characteristics of the new Hate Crime Act.

But given young Dovydas’ proximity to the SNP’s corridors of power, we think we can go out on a limb and say that the chances of inter-generational harmony breaking out inside the “big tent” any time soon are pretty slim.

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0 to “The Circus Of Hate”

  1. duncanio
    Ignored
    says:

    Dovydas Kuliešas sounds like a Wolfie Smiff for 2024: Power to the Pre-Pubescent People!

    Ah well, his 15 minutes will soon be up.

  2. Sven
    Ignored
    says:

    Goodness, so this is type of nationalist hoping to build a new, inclusive, tolerant Scotland.
    Brave New World indeed. Unfortunately not, it would seem, one with room for a pensioner like myself with no grandchildren.

  3. bmc875
    Ignored
    says:

    “Big tent”

    “All right to not agree on everything all the time”

    “The cause is bigger”

    —————————–

    With 2 exceptions
    1. Alex Salmond is a twat.

    2. Our way or the highway.

  4. Davy Smith
    Ignored
    says:

    As soon as I saw the name, I knew we were in for a rocket ride.
    The Baltic Buffoon filled my WEF Dogma bingo card in a single paragraph.

  5. Gaelstorm
    Ignored
    says:

    Dovydas, delusional, deranged and a dangerous ass.

  6. President Xiden
    Ignored
    says:

    These annoying children should be sent to their rooms .

  7. Lee Floyd
    Ignored
    says:

    If this was 1933 that chap would be one of the first to burn a book, smash shop windows, and beat up old people of a certain religious persuasion. I thought we’d left all that behind. Well done Scotland, you’re breeding some fine human beings.

  8. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    Psychotropic Decline and Megastrophic Proportions are two of my favourite Death-Metal bands

  9. Jeannie McCrimmon
    Ignored
    says:

    I vote for execution by boiling in the big soup pot.

  10. Mac
    Ignored
    says:

    Yeah that screed is 100% a hate crime. Stirring up hatred against people based on their age.

    Get it reported old fogeys of Scotland.

    ‘Dov’ is a right fat shit as well.

  11. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    As Hank Hill would often say: That boy ain’t right…

  12. AnneDon
    Ignored
    says:

    The irony is, of course, that now the SNP is reliant on this dynamic young generation who are right about EVERYTHING, they have to pay canvassers at by elections because none of the little shits want to go out and do anything.

    And can’t be trusted not to shout at or hyperventilate when faced with anyone who disagrees with them.

  13. ronnie martin
    Ignored
    says:

    Reminds me of Rick (silent P) from The Young Ones only more self rightous

  14. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    This is all very positive, means these roasters know their playtime is coming to an end.

    🙂

  15. AnneDon
    Ignored
    says:

    It sounds like that poster “Quick, kids, get a career and a house now, while you still know everything!”

    Personally, I’m feeling quite threatened by this and would like to report it under the HCA.

  16. twathater
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh My Goodness surely Ms Roddick will be slightly displeased at the tone YOUNG Dovydas appears to be using towards elderly over 30s
    I assume young Dovydas will be making his views vehemently and vociferously known at any cross party group on islands because there is an unacceptable number of AULD people on that committee
    It is somewhat confusing that young Dovydas appears to revile the decrepit elderly over 30s when so many of his heroes and heroines (am I allowed to say that now) like Nicoliar,Alyn and others are in a state of advanced decomposition

    Can we be assured young Dovydas and young CaMORON Greer will be fully supportive and highly promoting the Assisted Dying Bill lodged at HR
    It is really reassuring that young people like Dovydas are Scotland’s future, they will be a beacon of hope to other countries who also have decrepit auld arseholes in charge

    I think their parents (if they are still alive at their ripe old age) should be really proud that they have instilled such progressiveness and civic enlightenment in their children

    I remember fondly the days of the young gangs of Easterhouse,Castlemilk,Drumchapel,Bridgeton,Oxgangs, their harmony and inclusivity for other young people was legendary

    Scotland for the YOUNG TEAM

  17. Oneliner
    Ignored
    says:

    His big mistake was joining the development group task force. He would have been better in the steering committee task force. Or even Burger King.

    Youngsters eh?

  18. Donald MacDonald
    Ignored
    says:

    When I was peripherally involved in student ‘politics’, I formed the impression that young ‘progressives’ fundamentally misunderstand what it means to be of the Left. They’re right around the corner and reappearing on the far right…

  19. Cath
    Ignored
    says:

    What a bizarre rant. He seems not to know it was the “old people” of Alex Salmond’s generation who built the SNP, made it successful, legislated for same sex marriage and created a truly progressive Scotland – one his lot of authoritarian, gender stereotyping zealots have trashed. It seems, despite the ageism, to actually mostly be targeted at Kate Forbes who is, by any definition, ‘the younger generation’. It’s fair to say he just despises anyone genuinely SNP or pro indy.

  20. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    As Dovydas is clearly a huge fan of the Scottish Greens, we’re not sure why he’s so furious at what he anticipates as a flood of voters moving to them.

    I don’t know if anyone’s been following what’s been going on with all the new Green councillors in England, but there’s a number of very dubious new councillors who are, to put it mildy, dodgy. There’s a number of exceptionally dubious Green politicians and hangers on in Scotland of which this lad has been emboldened by the way the Greens have had next to no scrutiny til fairly recently.

    Conversely, we gather that it’s already been reported as a hate crime by some concerned citizens, given that it fairly clearly appears to incite hatred on the basis of age, one of the protected characteristics of the new Hate Crime Act.

    Fantastic. As much as I despise the HCA, it’d be hilarious if he was prosecuted under the terms of the act, which from a layman’s view, that blog is something that would probably see him in court.

    Thing is these people don’t want a broad church, or a consensus or to compromise which is the basis of politics. They want to rule by dicktat for the few & they’re not ‘progressive’ in the slightest as authoritarianism and bigotry isn’t progressive in my book.

    Most of all, what’s going to be hilarious is when this boy hits his 30s and 40s and suddenly realises there’s younger generations trying to push him out the way. Though I doubt he’ll amount to anything more than a footnote in the history of these times, unless he goes to court of course…

  21. Spartan 117
    Ignored
    says:

    Couldn’t be arsed reading through the diatribes by know-feck-all wee lefty smartarses. TL;DR version?

  22. Joan Hutcheson
    Ignored
    says:

    I can’t forgive myself for not only voting for Alyn Smith but campaigning to get him elected, so I don’t expect anyone else to. It didn’t take long (his first attendance at an SNP branch zoom meeting during Covid) for me to realise that he his interest in promoting independence was zilch.

    Not long afterwards I and every other woman on the branch exec. left the SNP because (a) it had abandoned independence in favour of identity politics, particularly harmful ‘gender’ ideology) (b) there was no hope of reforming it due to the ‘ownership’ of its processes and positions by Team Sturgeon. When reformers were voted by the membership onto national committees the latter weren’t allowed to meet. I say this as someone who was voted onto such a committee. Alyn Smith memorably said “They (the reformers) have position but no power.” Damn straight, Alyn. Oops, could that fragment be construed as a hate crime? Honestly, as a mature person I meant it in a bland (‘un-reconstructed’ or ‘sane’, take your pick) sense.

    Talking about ‘age’ — I’ve got news for Mr Dovydas and co. Far from blaming me, my teenage grandsons look to me to help them survive the injustice never mind insanity of what’s happening at their school. The boys have raised these issues with me as they feel confused and let down by the teachers who are supposed to protect children and young people, not collude with harmful and unsound propaganda. I did not initiate discussion as I’m mindful of the appalling treatment of pupils who challenge the overt promotion of propaganda by ‘Trans’-activist staff. Pupils have been shouted at and suspended from school for stating that it’s not possible for humans to change sex. Furthermore, children experiencing various of unresolved (by staff) problems (e.g. being bullied due to being overweight) are deciding that they’re not boys but girls or vice versa. And why wouldn’t they? There are exclusive clubs set up in the school to make them feel not only ‘safe’ but special. There aren’t coffee and cake events for ‘ordinary’ teenagers with or without problems. These fundraising events for LBGT (with posters all over the school saying NO LBG without T) are the ONLY such events.

  23. Lorna Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    Talk about hyperbole. Ach, fear not, Rev, life has a habit of bringing real reality to the young. Perhaps someone should remind him of how many children and youths of both sexes died in WW II and never got the chance to grow old and become a pain in the nethers and a burden on society. Many, many more died in the Soviet Union. Many more in Japan, China, Europe. That is what happens when people like him shut down debate and dialogue. The old die, too, of course, but not at the same rate as the youth.

    That daft laddie singing, ‘The World Belongs to Me’ would have ended up six feet under, and those his utter stupidity left behind would have inherited starvation and extreme poverty for a number of years. Three million Germans died after the war ended. Dovydas’s name would be Lithuanian? Latvian? Estonian? He will know what his people endured during WW II and afterwards at the hands of madmen – Hitler and Stalin.

    Alyn Smith is a Svengali who has latched on to the SNP for now. Scary guy. I’m not sure in whose image he models himself, but anyone who runs a stable of young men with those ideas needs to be checked up on by the security services. Or maybe he is the security services? Hard to tell with the SNP these days.

  24. Eddie Munster
    Ignored
    says:

    These clowns should be put up for question time, debate night etc just to show people, who don’t have a twitter, the people behind the scenes that accuse others of being bigots who are out with their circle jerking group.

  25. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    Goodness, so this is type of nationalist hoping to build a new, inclusive, tolerant Scotland.

    In a decade we’ve went from a civic nationalism where anyone of any race, sexuality, religion or politics would be included in an independent Scotland, to ‘our way or else’.

    I think part of it is these people are coddled so they’ve been locked in their echo chambers with no criticism or scrutiny, and as soon as people say no to them they throw a tantrum. What worries me is people in positions of power will still listen to them and I hope Swinney finds the courage to tell them to go away.

  26. Andy
    Ignored
    says:

    Well, that’s certainly an argument to raise the voting age by a decade or two.

  27. Annemariedoc
    Ignored
    says:

    As AnnDon says these people do nothing but shout absolute pish and vitriol. I wish they would canvas and stand on stalls so that the public would realise how dead the SNP is.

    That rant was incredible.

  28. revjimbob
    Ignored
    says:

    I wonder if he would be a better writer if he was less angry? I doubt it.

  29. George Ferguson
    Ignored
    says:

    Reminds me of Logan’s Run. A popular TV series back in the 1970s. Everybody under the age of 30 was OK until their 30th Birthday. Then rather dramatically they had to be vaporised for the greater cause of the general population. The only solution was to run to the free hinterland and hope a Sandman didn’t catch you. Old people survived out in the hinterland. I always knew one day I would return to the Highlands!

  30. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    When I was peripherally involved in student ‘politics’, I formed the impression that young ‘progressives’ fundamentally misunderstand what it means to be of the Left. They’re right around the corner and reappearing on the far right

    I don’t think there’s been a time when the Horseshoe Theory is so prevalent, with the extreme left and right having so much common ground. These kids aren’t progressive or socialist or anything but authoritarian neoliberals at best, strict fascists at worst.

    What worries me is that some of these people are getting more and more extreme on a number of issues from Trans rights, to the Gaza War, environmental issues, etc that I fear some of the bigotry and violence we’ve seen is going to escalate as they realise they’re not getting their way anymore.

  31. H Scott
    Ignored
    says:

    “Spartan 117
    Ignored says:
    9 May, 2024 at 6:21 pm
    Couldn’t be arsed reading through the diatribes by know-feck-all wee lefty smartarses. TL;DR version?”

    You’ve covered it.

  32. robertkknight
    Ignored
    says:

    These fekwits probably wish Logans Run was a documentary.

    Will the last grown up to leave the SNP kindergarten please turn off the lights.

    Thank you.

    What a f*”‘ing embarrassment the SNP has become…

    Indy for Scotland!
    SNP Out!

  33. Eddie Munster
    Ignored
    says:

    Thinking again, sounds a lot like a call for “””re-education camps””” for those who don’t think the way they do.

  34. Sven
    Ignored
    says:

    John C @ 18.30.

    If this is what they envisage as “rational debate”, John, I despair. When I think of the heated arguments and discussions of the Trades Unionists of my teen years and the strong emotions on display it’s always pleasant to recall that they never ended in that type of rancorous, totalitarian display of intolerant entitlement.
    As you say, such folk have probably yet to experience anyone saying “No” to them and meaning it.
    However, I can’t really imagine “Nutella & Banana” John Swinney standing up to them.

  35. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    I did not initiate discussion as I’m mindful of the appalling treatment of pupils who challenge the overt promotion of propaganda by ‘Trans’-activist staff. Pupils have been shouted at and suspended from school for stating that it’s not possible for humans to change sex.

    That’s against the law & those schools open themselves up for prosecution if they do it. Schools and other organisations need to realise that Stonewall law isn’t the actual law which is one of the reasons I assume an increasing number of companies and organisations are withdrawing from Stonewall and what is essentially an enormous scam/protection scheme.

    Furthermore, children experiencing various of unresolved (by staff) problems (e.g. being bullied due to being overweight) are deciding that they’re not boys but girls or vice versa. And why wouldn’t they? There are exclusive clubs set up in the school to make them feel not only ‘safe’ but special. There aren’t coffee and cake events for ‘ordinary’ teenagers with or without problems. These fundraising events for LBGT (with posters all over the school saying NO LBG without T) are the ONLY such events.

    It’s grooming. Kids have a hard enough time as it is without all this Queer/Trans nonsense making their lives hell.

    One of the things that made me realise what was going on was a friend’s daughter who was suffering hellish bullying, but the school rather than expel the kids bullying her, isolated her with other ‘troubled’ kids including some of the early Trans teens. Three weeks later she comes home to say she’s a he and wants to go on puberty blockers and aim for surgery when she’s old enough.

    I accept now there’s going to be an amazing amount of damage done to young people but I hope at some point sooner rather than later that some of the people responsible for all this end up in the jail.

  36. Confused
    Ignored
    says:

    One thing that annoys me about stupid cunts is how they can’t accept when they “got a really good deal out of it”; Harvie retains incredible de-facto influence, whereas the toxic midget should by rights be cast beyond the doors of night … has Kate Forbes been calling for “corrective r4pe”? Is there no religious tolerance for presbyterians? Harvie, shiting it, never mentioned anything about islam, a very “socially conservative” ideology. But Harvie, and it must be the gay in him, just won’t let it rest – the wide eyed outrage never dims.

    – then this guy .. that’s a colossal effort-post from the lad; impressive in a way, it’s so bad, it defies being picked apart, like it should be a re-write. The badness, the long winded sanctimony reminds me of … bella … and there it is! He learned his bullshit from the masters, Hassan and Small will be glowing.

    But in the normal world, he … “writes like a pouf”. This is why we need to bring back bullying in schools. And the belt.

    – the lithuanian angle is interesting – around the turn of last century some lithuanians turned up, most were catholics but some were jews; the catholics went to lanarkshire, the jews to the south side. The catholics were proper, hard-core catholics, so either he’s drifted a long way, or he is a tribal member. Normally I would against abortion, but this was a big miss for the hot needle and the dustbuster, shame his parents never believed in it. Maybe he exists because of a religion and values he hates.

    There is certainly a bit of age-ist hate criminality going on there; no tolerance for bigots, mind, and he should be cancelled.

    Part of me hopes for global war (just watched Fallout), and I think this fella should be drafted, to fight for trans rights in the yoo_kraine.

  37. Confused
    Ignored
    says:

    in other news, some amazing finds –

    trans surgery is truly horrific

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuoFsi2iIi0

    – we need to stop this madness, and yet smokey robinson never sounded better.

    also found 10 hours worth of patrick harvie playing the pink oboe –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDNQYJUdxks

    conspiracy theories suggest such “repetitive audio visual stimuli” have been used to facilitate trauma based mind control, ipcress style

  38. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    @ George Ferguson

    I was just about to post this but had a visitor wanting their lawnmower fixed so you beat me to it!

    Footage of the next SNP Conference if the SNPYoof have their way.
    (natch unrealistic numbers attending to fill that hall but you get the drift)

    Logan’s Run Carousel (3mins)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M2vx_RCwSs

    But have they thought this age intolerance through, coz what happens when they get old…

  39. Iain More
    Ignored
    says:

    Jeannie McCrimmon
    Ignored
    says:
    9 May, 2024 at 5:36 pm

    I vote for execution by boiling in the big soup pot.

    ===================================================================

    Seconded.

    Why arent the Wokist Advocates of the seuxal absue of children not beingt arrested by the Police and charged with various crimes that should send them to special “safe” prisons and sex offender units?

    It is ironic that if Swinney keels over then Kate Forbes will be SNP leader for a while at least. Then all hell will break loose.

  40. Anton Decadent
    Ignored
    says:

    A quick image search produced a photo of him standing in the Victoria Road entrance to Queens Park which is kind of fitting given that a seventy year old was murdered by a fifteen year old at that end of Victoria Road last month. People need to realise that Govanhill is the blueprint for all of Scotland in the future.

  41. Sheepshagger
    Ignored
    says:

    I guess I’d better reserve my slot at the euthanasia clinic then.

  42. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    “In a decade we’ve went from a civic nationalism where anyone of any race, sexuality, religion or politics would be included in an independent Scotland, to ‘our way or else’.”

    Very few countries give universal enfranchisement on constitutional matter in 2014 the SNP under Salmond did in the indyref vote and it cost us dearly with 72.1% of people from South of the border who live/lived in Scotland voting no to independence, whilst the majority of Scots did vote yes, that is a bit galling if you ask me.

    Since then the incomers population has increased greatly and the hidden census that was a year late and cost millions more hasn’t been revealed to show us just exactly how many folk from South of the border have arrived in Scotland, the attitude towards who can and can’t vote in Scotland especially on constitutional matter has arisen and rightly so if you ask.

  43. Tommo
    Ignored
    says:

    Is the Greer referred to any relative of Ginger Nuts ? It seems scarcely possible that even the indy movement could produce two prannocks of this calibre.

  44. Agent x
    Ignored
    says:

    21 May 2024
    Population by age and sex at all geographies down to output area (unrounded)
    Number of households at all geographies down to output area (unrounded)
    The 2022 output area boundaries will also be made available for download

    21 May 2024
    Ethnic group, national identity, language and religion
    ———————————————————

    It should be interesting when the above census results are published soon.

  45. Mia
    Ignored
    says:

    “Conversely, we gather that it’s already been reported as a hate crime by some concerned citizens, given that it fairly clearly appears to incite hatred on the basis of age, one of the protected characteristics of the new Hate Crime Act”

    and religion:
    “Your grandchild does think you are a terrible person for believing “normal Christian teaching” on abortion

    Religions other than Christianity may have similar teachings.

    and potential mis-gendering:
    “Your grandchild does think…… . And she does think….”
    How that this young man know if the grandchild is a he, a she or a “they”?

    and political beliefs:
    this individual falsely accuses people of being “actual murderers” for the mere reason of being part of a political party.

    and race:
    “people like you cannot be listened to”
    “or any of its fellow travellers”

    White Christians are not the only ones who may have objections to abortion. Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jewish, Sikhs, may too.

    Transgender identity, sexual orientation and disability:
    “a social democratic welfare state where they (young scots) and their friends are accepted for who they fucking are”

    In line with the above, it seems like in the disturbed mind of this young individual, those who are no longer young don’t longer have to be “accepted for who they fucking are”, and that includes those with transgender identity, disabled and gay people because they become old too.

    So it seems the young Dovydas has pissed on each and every one of the five protected characteristics included in the Hate Crime bill.

    I find this individual’s ramblings disturbing. They are not even funny. They are irrational, delusional, ridiculous. They give the impression of a very confused, troubled and dangerous mind that is completely detached from reality, social norm, morality, empathy or respect for others. These ramblings come across as those of a sociopath. I think this person needs help.

    But what I find even more disturbing is that ANYBODY in the SNP could have ever displayed the unprecedented level of idiocy and negligence of validating such irrational nonsense and allowed disturbed individuals like this to hold them and the party to ransom. This is negligence on steroids. People who are so embarrassingly weak that bent to sociopaths demonstrate they do not have the presence of mind to distinguish what is right from what is wrong, what is real from what is not, what is respectful from what is not, what is acceptable and what is not, and what is reasonable and what is not. Such people are not fit to hold office and therefore should have never been allowed anywhere near the levers of power. What the hell were they thinking? What the hell those around them were thinking? How could they possibly allow our government to be held to ransom by completely delusional extremists like this?

    How could they have been so stupid?

  46. George Ferguson
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dan 7:09pm
    Thanks Dan that clip of the Carousel spooked me because the uniform of the Sandmen looked suspiciously like the Fintry Shams a gang that tried to hunt me down a few times. I wouldn’t join them so I had to die. Youngsters today need investment in their characters best served by loving parents and Grandparents. Intergenerational relationships is vital to children’s well-being and not the State.

  47. Michael Laing
    Ignored
    says:

    That was the most utterly unhinged load of stinking bilge I’ve read in a long time. Totally off the planet. The likes of this Dovydas Kuliešas character haven’t the remotest clue how alienating and irrelevant their wacky obsessions are to the general public.

    Incidentally, I’m wondering what on earth all this identity politics and ‘women have penises’ garbage has got to do with independence. We voted SNP because we want Scotland to be independent. They have totally failed to deliver and they deserve nothing but contempt.

  48. Andrew Morton
    Ignored
    says:

    Worm complains tearfully when his host goes to the surgery for treatment for a nasty intestinal parasite.

    “I was peacefully sitting here in his gut sucking his lifeblood when the old bastard decided to throw me out. How dare he!’ screeched the young bloodsucker.

  49. Nick
    Ignored
    says:

    Two things about this that demonstrate the sheer and utter stupidity of the author. Firstly if you are what you identify as then what is an old man!
    Secondly does he not realise that he will grow old and this more wrong?
    Stupidity is not curable sadly

  50. Tom Halliday
    Ignored
    says:

    It was always going to come to this, just a pity the SNP have gone out of their way to put Swinney in as a buffer between Forbes and the intolerant youth, thus dumbing down the outrage, even Alyn Smith is trying to appear “normal” he must be shitting it now that he doesn’t have the back up of Sturgeon and her Mandela United

  51. Soda
    Ignored
    says:

    Fuck me, wind your neck in you insufferable little cunt

  52. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    Not happy at being labelled a “Pootin apologist”.

    Not happy at the writer assuming my grand-daughter’s pronouns (“she” and “her” being used throughout – hypocrisy in clear view).

    Not happy at Christianity being singled out, while yet again, Islam gets a free pass. That’s just yellow.

    Very happy to see this shite being given the oxygen of publicity. Give it more, saturate it with oxygen, shout it from the rooftops.

    No such thing as bad publicity, eh?

    People on here have the nerve to castigate me for objecting to paying through the nose to live in this dump. I bet I’ve been subsidising the author of this shite for most of his miserable existence.

  53. Antoine Roquentin
    Ignored
    says:

    The author is full of fascistic blather, for sure. His insurmountable problem is, unlike in Nazi times when the NSDAP picked-on an estimated 3% of the population to hate, along with anyone else who didn’t match their ideological template, he’s picked a huge demographic to hate, one that he’ll unavoidably be joining in the not so distant future.

  54. Glenn Elder
    Ignored
    says:

    What an ineffable wee: “Logan’s Run” prick.

    I could get irate at this rage and hate – filled diatribe.

    However, for all its fury and vileness, it is the unfettered screeches of an impotent loser who knows, but will not admit, that the game is over and his team lost.

  55. Cameron Robson
    Ignored
    says:

    If this Twitler Jugend is representative of Socialist Nationalist Party Scotland, I’m glad I’m 68 and a member of Alba. I am in opposition to nearly everything this bigoted fanatic supports.

  56. Hatuey
    Ignored
    says:

    If they’re upset now, imagine what it’s going to be like when the election results come in…

    A lot of people are going to be looking for jobs. And a lot of them aren’t going to find jobs.

    That’s how it goes.

  57. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    He’s right the SNP are a broad church. They accept every weirdo who’s been knocked back from every other club in Scotland. They don’t let normal people have a voice , because we are all bigots.

  58. Mac
    Ignored
    says:

    I read Roddy Dunlop’s precis of the HCB on here and therefore I am almost qualified to adjudicate on it.

    This is an open and shut case of stirring up hate on the basis of age. It could not be more blatant, it really could’nt.

    Paragraphs and paragraphs of it.

    Full fulminating ageism in hundreds and hundreds of bigoted words.

    Am I joking because actually this is a crime according to the SNPG.

    So will they enforce their own hate legislation or will they by not doing so admit it was always about persecuting their political enemies and not their hate filled, hate espousing, political friends above.

  59. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “We Are The Future”

    A more suitable name might be ‘We Are The Future Past’, circa 1930s Europe, perhaps.

  60. KiwiMike
    Ignored
    says:

    Dovydas Kuliešas is maybe a perect example of the ‘Dunning-Kruger effect’, (people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities).

  61. chris moore
    Ignored
    says:

    That fellow Dovydas is not meaning one iota of that drivel! He is a comic genius or I’m a monkey’s proverbial.

  62. shug
    Ignored
    says:

    I see Kelly Given is thinking about leaving the SNP

    Now there would be a loss!!

  63. Young Lochinvar
    Ignored
    says:

    He/ She/ It (Hope I have covered all the possibilities there as I am over 30) sounds like they *are away wi the faeries* as they used to say..

  64. AndyH
    Ignored
    says:

    History just keeps on repeating itself.

    Thank feck we lost the referendum.

    Just imagine how shit things would be now.

    This is a global neo liberal epidemic that is thankfully now in decline.

    Go woke go broke etc etc.

  65. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    @ shug

    Kelly Given thinking? You’ll need to provide some evidence to verify she’s capable of such skills.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-stupidity-of-vanity/

  66. Ebok
    Ignored
    says:

    For readers who advocate gaming Holyrood’s AMS/D’Hondt electoral system – and there are many – the Rev’s article should serve as a stark warning: you are playing with fire.

    The odious creatures described in the article have a voice because the system was gamed in 2021, and Sturgeon, rather than going it alone with a workable 64 MSPs, brought them on board.

    The weakness of gaming can be shown by considering the outcome of a (highly unlikely) case where a Holyrood election was called tomorrow, and SNPs estimated half million remaining voters all voted SNP1/green2. This would result in SNP getting between 2 and 10 constituency seats – which would be fantastic – but greens would win 20-25 list seats.

    That is an extreme scenario, but even ignoring that possibility, if those voting for second parties are naïve enough to vote in sufficient numbers for green2, they will have a growing influence way, way above their 2% or 3% polling.
    That’s what can happen if you vote 1 & 2 for different candidates as many of those who choose different candidates will have no thoughts about gaming or the possible ramifications.

    And those who go down that route with the intention of gaming might THINK that their choice could do well as a result, they might think that others share that opinion, but there is no way of knowing, and that is the danger.

  67. sarah
    Ignored
    says:

    @ AndyH: “Thank feck we lost the referendum.”

    I think if we’d won everything would be quite different. The entire population was engaged and pretty well-informed so they would have been involved with the discussions about a written constitution. We probably would have had a form of direct democracy a la Switzerland where the electorate can stop politicians doing mad or bad legislation.

  68. robertkknight
    Ignored
    says:

    Never heard of this shower, who appear to ooze self entitlement and think that the rest of the world is obliged to give a shit about what they have to say on any given Satuesday, until today…

    https://sensibility.scot/contributorshttps://sensibility.scot/contributors

    Their banner states…

    “Toward a positive, inclusive, and progressive, independent Scotland for all

    Unless you’re old, apparently…

    Their blog also states:

    In the name of promoting reasoned, nuanced discussion of issues, this blog will not support comments. ”

    I haven’t laughed so much since watching Sturgeon’s last appearance on TV concerning the charging of her husband!

    “Sensibility”!?!?! LOL!

    What’s next? Are we going to have BNP supporters setting up a blog called “Harmony”?

    If these idiots represent the “future” then runaway global warming may well do us all a favour.

  69. robertkknight
    Ignored
    says:

    https://sensibility.scot/contributors

    Link that works.

  70. Jockanese Wind Talker
    Ignored
    says:

    D = Dumb
    O = Obsequious
    V = Volksschädling labelling
    Y = YouthWing
    A = AlexSalmondphobe
    S = Sycophant

    K = Kunt
    U = Unemployable-shortly
    L = Loser
    I = Idealist
    E = Extremist
    S = Scornful
    A = Arsehole
    S = Sensationalist

  71. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Ebok
    Ignored says:
    9 May, 2024 at 10:05 pm

    ….The weakness of gaming can be shown by considering the outcome of a (highly unlikely) case where a Holyrood election was called tomorrow, and SNPs estimated half million remaining voters all voted SNP1/green2. This would result in SNP getting between 2 and 10 constituency seats – which would be fantastic – but greens would win 20-25 list seats.

    The weakness in your argument is a disingenuous fraud like Sturgeon, not the “List Party” strategy which you describe as gaming the system.

    The whole point was to have a List Party, ALBA, picking up those 20-25 List seats, and thus augmenting an SNP Constituency majority with an ALBA List Seat majority, and thereby have pro Independence supermajority which could power towards Indyrf2 without seeking Westminster’s “permission”.

    The strategy was sound. ALBA were sincere, and Salmond’s timely initiative was inspired. The tre@chery lay in Sturgeon, subverting any prospect of a pro-Independence supermajority through her fear of Alex Salmond, the man she’d freshly conspired to destroy.

    Don’t blame the strategy. In it lay victory for Scotland. Sturgeon was its undoing, and may she rot in hell for wrecking Independence for a third time, the nasty little wretch.

  72. Henwife
    Ignored
    says:

    Another spoilt bairn needing telt. Not surprised to see that he worked for Emma Roddick. In which connection, https://x.com/EmmaRoddickSNP/status/1787499025316364388. Bet she isn’t so keen on John Swinney now.

  73. shug
    Ignored
    says:

    Patrick Harvey has a problem with Kate Forbes taking us back to the 1950s but had no problem with Humza taking us back to the 1500s. A chap who made a publicity statement out of bringing his personal faith into Bute House.

    Islam is not known for its modern liberal views is it.

    What a wally

  74. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    FFS. It’s like something written for the People’s front of Judea.

    “In the real world of real ppl this does not affect you..”

    LMFAO! I wish it didn’t. Their pish is everywhere, from schools to the workplace & even enforced, like the Nazi youth, snitching on their parents/neighbours with the latest hotline direct to the polis if their pronoun is wrong.

    These sad fucks think they’re *progressive*
    They’re Delusional.

    It was a bad idea to give angry incels a vote lol Now they think they can enforce the electorate to comply with their temper tantrums & vote SNP & Green to continue their …er…good work. Away & raffle. Typical narcissist – it’s not him that’s the problem for the party sinking to the abyss – it’s everyone else’s.

    *Can someone remind me what their beef is with abortion please?

  75. Cynicus
    Ignored
    says:

    chris moore says:
    9 May, 2024 at 9:19 pm

    “That fellow Dovydas is not meaning one iota of that drivel! He is a comic genius or I’m a monkey’s proverbial.”
    ==========
    I think you could be on the Money here.

    I am something of a connoisseur of diatribes and this one is fantastic. 10/10.

    The content is, of course, totally unhinged but the form is brilliant. It is surely a parody marred only by the fact there is no top over which this boy won’t go!

  76. Hatuey
    Ignored
    says:

    “Islam is not known for its modern liberal views is it.”

    What religion is?

    Please don’t make me quote Leviticus.

  77. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    What did Leviticus ever do to you?

    What is liberal views these days anyway? They’re cracking skulls & detaining people across the pond for protesting (even just passers by on the way to class LOL) & here they’d love to crack a few skulls if you don’t have a pronoun.

    So much for liberty & equality in the West eh?

  78. Stuart MacKay
    Ignored
    says:

    “The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very very brightly, Dovydas”

    I think we should step aside and let the poor boy get on with it. The destruction of the SNP would be absolute, and with a bit of luck they’d all take themselves out in the crossfire.

  79. Stoker
    Ignored
    says:

    Dopyass Dovydas is an angry insignificant little fellow with “44 followers” and his only political achievement is getting his expletive-laden article and name mentioned on WOS. He ironically has a sideswipe at Alex Salmond, an old man with tens-of-thousands of followers, an old man who has achieved many things in his political career such as the legalising of same sex marriages. As they say these days, go figure. LOL!

  80. Robert Louis
    Ignored
    says:

    You know, I have a degree of empathy with this Dovydas person. When I was twelve years old, I too believed I was RIGHT all the time, and all the ‘old fogeys’ were wrong to the extent they really should do us all a favour and shut the f*** up.

    But, alas that was when I was twelve years old. The I grew the f*** up. What I realised upon going to university was that I was wrong, not ALL young people thought the same as me, indeed most had very different opinions.

    The worst thing, I mean the VERY WORST thing the independence movement or even the SNP could do, is take even one word from this man-child Dovydas seriously. The lad is a tube.

  81. Robert Louis
    Ignored
    says:

    Breeks at 1225am

    Ah, Breeks, yet again I find myself in full agreement. Your final paragraph, is worth re-quoting in full;

    Quote

    Don’t blame the strategy. In it lay victory for Scotland. Sturgeon was its undoing, and may she rot in hell for wrecking Independence for a third time, the nasty little wretch.“.

    Could not agree more.

  82. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Hatuey says: 10 May, 2024 at 1:53 am

    “Please don’t make me quote Leviticus”

    We could quote Leviticus all we want. We could tear it to shreds, both metaphorically in print or online, and literally on Princes Street in front of the invited TV cameras.

    We could do all that with every book of the bible, old or new. We could paint pictures of everybody in it, or draw cartoons, or make a film with every character blaspheming, eff-ing and blinding.

    Neither of us would be killed, or have to spend the rest of our lives in hiding because we had been sentenced to death.

    Yet again, you post on this pro-Scotland, pro-Indy site in favour of a foreign culture, a foreign set of values, and a foreign religion intrinsically hostile to native Scots.

  83. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    shug @ 1:07 am

    “Patrick Harvey has a problem with Kate Forbes taking us back to the 1950s but had no problem with Humza taking us back to the 1500s.”

    Conflicts with invaders and their ‘cultural imperialism’ seeking to exploit arguably began long before, pre-dating even the Romans, merger with Gaels, and Viking occupation, though the ‘customary foe’ remains the same, more or less:

    “The earliest surviving document to use the name Picts is the Latin panegyric dedicated to Constantius Caesar, dated to AD 297; this refers to the “Picti” as customary foes of the “Brittani” or Britons (Aitchison 2003). The name ‘Picti’ was said to be in use after the campaigns of Septimius Severus early in the third century (Laing and Laing 2001). Both the Picts and Caledonians (also known as the Verturiones and Dycalydones) are described in AD 313 by Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus, with the Dycalydones also mentioned in Tacitus’ account of Agricola’s Roman campaigns in north-east Scotland.”

  84. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    John C
    Ignored says:
    9 May, 2024 at 6:20 pm
    As Dovydas is clearly a huge fan of the Scottish Greens, we’re not sure why he’s so furious at what he anticipates as a flood of voters moving to them.

    The Greens are welcome to them. This chap reminds me of that weird Greer fellow. I do pity the genuine greens, but these men-children need somewhere to go. A trash can would be more appropriate. However, they want to mould the world in their own image and refuse to let up. They may be in for a nasty surprise though. The public do vote habitually along party lines, but they are not stupid. The red line has been crossed. Big backlash coming, methinks. Not soon enough.

  85. Frank Gillougley
    Ignored
    says:

    The photographs of gender mutilation are legion. Those who carry out and authorise these legalised acts of butchery are no less than those ideologues who did so at the extermination camps in the 40’s
    I do hope and pray that one enlightened day all of those cheerleaders are held responsible and will pay for their crimes against humanity.
    There has to be justice for their rank abuse of the vulnerable.

  86. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    The old adage was that it takes a village to raise a child, so in the bairn’s formative years they would be exposed to a diverse range of people and views outwith the restricted outlook of just the insular family unit.
    With the dawn of the internet and smartphones some children often spend way too much of their time self-absorbed in their own chosen insular bubble of like-minded individuals, so they become hive-minded and fail to properly develop the necessary life skillsets of being well-adjusted and tolerant individuals capable of getting on with folk in wider society.

  87. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    The Yewkay Eurovision entry features man on man sex in a toilet.
    Is there a trigger warning?
    Would that be a Westminster or Holyrood toilet or one in of many dysfunctional HM prisons?
    An unintended percipient comment on the pitiful state of HM’s realm, maybe?

    UK Border Control.
    Perverts Preferred

  88. Lynn
    Ignored
    says:

    It is indeed unacceptable to write with such hatred . I am pleased our government has laws now to tackle this level of hate within our society and concerned citizens can help out .
    The police are encouraging this level of responsibility.

  89. Vivian O’Blivion
    Ignored
    says:

    The John Smith Centre has announced that Eddie Barnes is to be its new Director. Barnes is presently Director at Gordon Brown’s, Our Scottish Future, a devolutionist pressure group. Our Scottish Future is curiously a Private Company rather than a Charity.

    Our Scottish Future lists its Advisory Board. These are predominantly Labour Party functionaries with a few LibDems thrown in. First on the untitled, non-alphabetical list is Andrew Hilland.

    From the site bio.: “Andrew is an executive at the strategic advisory firm Hakluyt. Born and raised in Lanark, he graduated from Oxford University in law and has worked subsequently as a lawyer and a human rights activist. His work has taken him to the US, where he helped represent prisoners on death row, and to the UN, where he presented a report on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.”

    Hakluyt is a private intelligence outfit set up and staffed by former Officers of MI5 & MI6. Andrew is to put no fine point on it, a Spook.

    Hilland will not have to follow his boss over to the John Smith Centre, they already have their resident spook in the shape of former Hakluyt Director, Baroness Smith of Gilmorehill.

  90. AndyHolt
    Ignored
    says:

    Alyn Smith bears a remarkable resemblance to my grand daughter’s Guinea Pig.

  91. Spartan 117
    Ignored
    says:

    Don’t know why Patrick Harvie is making such a (bigoted) fuss over KFs religion. Has he looked at what HY follows? Did he voice his displeasure at that? Nah, thought not. Just another Green Alphabet anti-Christian bigot.

    Nasty wee gets these Greens, eh. Not so much a chip on the shoulder as a whole chippy.

  92. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Ughh – no doubt filmed in the ladies.

    Dan.

    Exactly. Probably plonked in front of the teletubbies untill they were old enough for a playstation.

    Going back to the article – was it Smith who called SNP membership dinosaurs? I seem to remember that “spring chicken” being ageist before along with other insults about being nasty nats. Peter Pan there let the camel in the big tent to kill off the SNP. Who can forget his boyfriend Jordon & his rants & bullying of MSPs & MPs.

  93. Gregory Beekman
    Ignored
    says:

    This gay old fogey is delighted to deny trans children the right to choose their own puberty because trans children are human beings like all children and human beings don’t get to deny their own humanity or deny their own DNA.

    Just let trans kids grow up without encouraging them to participate in a ‘drug-n-cut’ culture. To coin a phrase:

    “Leave trans kids alone you absolute Tennants!”

  94. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    I do wonder how much of the green lighting to NuGender has come from this secretive band, the World Economic Forum.

    The WEF is economically and socially ultraliberal. It despises ethnic nationalism believing in a corporatist world governance with not a few interesting Chinese features. It is no friend of Scots dissolving the link with England, but then who is…(irony)
    It is not hot on true science the stuff involving brains and lots of mental energy, per se, except when science can deliver off the shelf global medicalization strategems that will put wads of cash into the pants pockets of the already megarich fatcats via their investments in pharmaceutical conglomerates. It, unsurprising, likes so called «artificial intelligence». AI is the up coming big brother informant in your living room, bed room and maybe inside your body.

    LGBTxyz the WEF would mate with, if that were biologically fixable, but someone is no doubt working on that divine error. LGBTxyz is the spawn of globalism. All countries have queers so their porno size member is through the door promoting a sexed up version of colonialism.
    No same sex unions how backward etc.

    An insight into the SCHWAB universe is a book by Peter S Goodman, «DAVOS MAN».
    All the manipulators are in there. Engrossing and chilling account of the corporatist planet in embryo. Fascism resurgent. Long live the stakeholder. Adieu, citizen democracy.

  95. Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    All extremist groups throughout history have used unhinged young people like this to create an atmosphere of hate and terror.

    Oh, Alex, what possessed you. If you had stayed on, we could probably have avoided the worst of this.

  96. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s just as well Kate Forbes is a woman. Can you imagine the furore if a white, Christian man had been appointed DFM?

    A real Christian man, that is, not a token spiritual cross-dresser trying to fool everyone. 🙂

  97. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    DAVOS MAN is downloadable gratis, from

    https://pdfdrive.to/dl/davos-man-how-the-billionaires-devoured-the-world-0

    Have a good day!

  98. Stravaiger
    Ignored
    says:

    My dad used to say that the far right and the far left meet up round the back.

    When people ask me would I rather go forward in time or back in time (you’d be surprised how often I get asked that), I always say back. No way I’d want to see the bourach that these lot are going to make of things. I’m glad I’ll be dead relatively soon, they’re making their bed and they can lie in it.

  99. Spartan 117
    Ignored
    says:

    TURABDIN

    Name any problem of the current age contributing to the decay and decline of the Western world and the oppression of its populations, you can bet the WEF are behind it.

    They are pushing hard on anti-democratic policy, China being the model; they want us as mechanised drones to be used for whatever they choose. They want to take away your vote, your voice, your education, your travel, what you eat, anything that remotely makes you human and resembles any semblance of freedom or free will.

    Three particular tools are bring used for this – firstly, Net Zero, under the lies of “Climate change”; secondly, Alphabet weirdness, to destroy the very fabric of civilised society; thirdly, the deliberate removal and denial of democratic process – most Western politicians are captured by the WEF and are following the programme.

    Fun fact:- Nicola Sturgeon is a WEF fan girl.

  100. BLMac
    Ignored
    says:

    That sounded like an demented rant by a deluded child.

    The really sad thing is that nowhere is he rallying his supporters to act towards independence.

    It looks like our youth aren’t so much about the future, but about preserving our past as an occupied country with our masters in Westminster. Isn’t that what they call conservative thinking? 🙂

  101. Doug
    Ignored
    says:

    The SNP must be destroyed if independence is to be achieved. The pro-indy movement needs a radical alternative. If Alba was to adopt abstentionism they’d be independence leaders overnight and the independence movement in general would get a tremendous boost. And britnats would self-combust in rabid rage…

  102. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Luigi

    The Russiaphopes would go into meltdown if that happened.

    Wee Harvie doesn’t think he has a religion lol. It’s the church of LGBTQWERTYS2 +++++ & unbelievers should be punished. The harsher the better.

    Delusional or what?

  103. Garavelli Princip
    Ignored
    says:

    This dafty is in for a real shock if and when he has to work for a living.

    As we have long known (and he undoubtedly confirms) a high proportion of this bollocks is driven by mental illness.

    I do hope he gets better soon, especially since most psychiatric beds have been closed.

    I doubt he’ll get the care he clearly needs in the community.

  104. Anton Decadent
    Ignored
    says:

    @Turabdin, Ghislaine Maxwell was, last time I checked, still listed as a WEF Champion Of Technology. The owner of TIME magazine which promoted HY is a member of the WEF.

    @Spartan117, three heads of the hydra are the queering of the children in Western nations, using environmentalism as an excuse for a social reset with opaque companies set up to harvest money like Lorna Slaters’ shelved scheme and mass immigration as a form of incremental genocide, there are too many people for the planet to survive so do not have children/you have not had enough children so people whose cultures have lots of children will be coming in to sort that out. We are heading towards Chinese style social credit where currencies and/or paper money/coin will be abolished (the Guardian publishes periodical pieces promoting this), we have seen debanking used as a punishment against the owner of this site. Control of the political sphere, finance, advertising, publishing, entertainment, media be it written, visual or social, academia, law, health, social housing/services, the Arts and the charity sector are all engaged to implement this.

  105. Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    ” If Alba was to adopt abstentionism they’d be independence leaders overnight.”

    Doug, you are absolutely right. They could keynote it with various words: ‘Abstention’ or ‘Direct Democracy’ or ‘Scottish Sovereignty’ – but if they fought the election on a promise to work hard for their constituents but not visiting Westminster, unless the attendance had a direct tangible benefit for their constituents, and was at the request of their constituents, it would give them an enormous fillip.

    They are going to get nowhere playing the Westminster game or trying to do unity deals with the SNP, so this is the direction for them to go. I can’t understand why they can’t see this.

  106. Zappaphile
    Ignored
    says:

    Now I realise that the AUOB money has been spent on Freddo bars…

  107. Ebok
    Ignored
    says:

    Breeks @ 12.25am

    We have locked horns a couple of times recently, Breeks, something I regret as I follow your comments with great interest and invariably agree with you.

    On this occasion, you seem to be shifting the goalposts by disagreeing with something that hasn’t been said.

    The point of my comment was to highlight dangers of using the list vote as a second choice. That is not the same as voting for a list party only.

    What I am maintaining is that from an objective stance, voting 1&2 for the same party is logical and safe, just as FPtP is. It prevents minorities from calling the shots. Mix and match is dangerous and its advocates are, IMHO, misguided.

    SNP 1&2 is the vote that sticks in many throats, but it wasn’t that which gave us this omnishambles. If every SNP voter had gone 1&2, there would be no green MSPs, 65 SNP MSPs, and 64 unionists or vice-versa – I haven’t made that calculation.
    That outcome could hardly be worse than it is at present, and indeed would have given enormous powers to rebellious MSPs such as Regan and Ewing. Sturgeon couldn’t have gotten away with half the shit she’s laid on us.

    Alba’s share would have been unaffected because there wasn’t enough time to make the case for Alba2.

    If you wish to disagree with my point that 1&2 is sound, please tell me which two parties you’d be inclined to vote for in 2026 and I will be happy to respond.

  108. Spartan 117
    Ignored
    says:

    @Anton Decadent – indeed. I had forgotten about the deliberate mass replacement programme and the featuring of Useless on TIME. Plus Stu’s debanking.

    Sick and wicked people. Anyone stupid enough to vote Tory, Labour, Snip, Dim Lib, Green etc is guilty of endorsing this, they all march to the WEF drum.

  109. Effijy
    Ignored
    says:

    I read in the Independent that Brexiteers on a parliamentary committee have warned that Brits and NATO personnel could be blocked by the EU from entering Gibraltar if it goes ahead with a settlement negotiated because of Brexit.

    Unique EU relationships for N Ireland, Gibraltar and the Channel Islands but Scotland go #### Itself as you are owned, powerless and hopeless.

    If only we had an independence party to raise this issue and walk out of Westminster.

  110. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    Another species of «CIRCUS».

    https://archive.ph/UL1Hr

    And the woman during whose tenure two fires occurred gets off uncharred.
    It is said she was a pal of…….guess?

    Notre Dame is taking less time to restore….

    lawyers, insurance companies a stitch up forged in hellfire to line deep pockets.
    The French have a sense of pride.

    In nuScotland «pride» signifies but(t) one thing.

  111. robertkknight
    Ignored
    says:

    “Independence can be delivered in 5 years” says Sturgeon’s puppet.

    By who?

    The devo-max supporting, pound-shop political midgets in the SNP?

    They’ll be too busy troughing to think Indy because in 5 years time the SNP will be a museum piece through a combination of scandal, political oblivion and bankruptcy.

    The SNP are dead already. But, as with all zombies, they just don’t realise it yet.

    Indy for Scotland!
    SNP Out!

  112. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    Very few countries give universal enfranchisement on constitutional matter in 2014 the SNP under Salmond did in the indyref vote and it cost us dearly with 72.1% of people from South of the border who live/lived in Scotland voting no to independence, whilst the majority of Scots did vote yes, that is a bit galling if you ask me.

    If people want Scottish independence to be based around blood and soil ethnic nationalism then I’d vote to stay in the union. I want no part of that, neither I think would a number of other people regardless of where they were born.

    This is just the same as those headcases who say next vote should include Scots living outwith Scotland, which is also blood and soil nationalism. No, Salmond got it right. Where we failed was making a solid enough case for people to vote for it. No amount of conspiracy or sour grapes can hide that.

  113. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    Re Charles Rennie MACKINTOSH…

    He is held in high regard in Europe, a continent where they name streets after famous sons and daughters.
    An Italian company launched reproductions of his unique chair designs.
    Scotland….WAKE UP!

  114. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    The photographs of gender mutilation are legion.

    I mentioned about my friend’s daughter who wanted to transition & have surgery earlier in the comments. When she was talking about surgery I’d foolishly assumed such surgery was safe & wasn’t a Wild West of what wouldn’t even be called ‘experimental’.

    So I contact an old school transexual I used to work with who’d went through full surgery in his 30s and asked him about it. His reaction was one of horror and he explained what they do for a FtM operation & suggested I Google the results. So I did. If anyone’s seen the pictures you know what came up and this was in 2012/3 when this was all just starting to be a big thing.

    Once I was told that one of the reasons transexuals never used to be approved for surgery until in their 20s at least was that nobody then though people in their teens were mentally or physically mature enough to deal with the consequences of such surgery. That of course, is all out the window now as health services around the world have adopted the affirmation model which is what Harvie and The Greens want to maintain in Scotland, regardless of the dangers or the damaged people it leaves in its wake.

    Do you know that on the likes of Tumblr or Reddit you have TRAs telling young girls that don’t worry if you change your mind, you can get breast implants when you’re older? I don’t think most people are quite aware of how many TRAs are complete monsters & in this regard, I’d include the Greens in that catagory.

  115. Fearghas MacFhionnlaigh
    Ignored
    says:

    The long years of silence and invisibility of SNP MPs suggest that “abstentionism” is just one more policy pushed through without it having been in their manifesto.

  116. AndyH
    Ignored
    says:

    @ John C

    Absolutely correct.

    Also. I think it’s time for Alex Salmond to take more of a back seat or change tactics.

    Alba need to use every moment of exposure to the maximum and highlight the SNPs inaction on Independence.

    I suspect Mr Salmond thinks Alba offers him a back door into the SNP again.

  117. Confused
    Ignored
    says:

    religion?

    – all the major religions – catholicism, islam, judaism (maybe also buddhism and hindus) are against, in broad terms “degeneracy”

    – protestants, generally try to be “progressive” which means not actually believing in anything, and just “trying to get along”; most of them, that is, though the extremists still do have firm beliefs, e.g. presbyterians, southern baptists.

    – the most ironic thing about “woke-ism” is that it is, in essence, a new global religion being imposed, top-down, by elites. Operationally it is a form of neo-puritanism, which needs to be understood.

    In puritanism/presbyterianism/extreme proddyism – there is no salvation, no free will, no “doing good works to buy yourself a place in heaven”, it is all predetermined, ye are of the elect or ye be damned. Since we all start at zero, or rather are in original sin, and there is nothing which can aid your situation, it is very much a game you can only lose. Winning thus becomes a matter of “going backwards slower than the next guy” – to protect yourself, get your accusations in first – mistress martha she be cavorting with satan in the graveyard … and she has a black cat …

    Witch Hunts! – a prod phenomenon, not the inquisition. Get on that fucking twitter and hunt down the racists and the transphobes, virtue signal along the purity spiral into madness!

    Satanism seems to be the most “progressive” of the religions and the incarnation Baphomet, had a dick AND a pair of tits. Which is probably a coincidence.

    As for the modern fetish “access to healthcare” (abortion), this seems to mirror the hebrews period when they sacrificed their children to Moloch, by throwing them into a fiery furnace underneath the idol; maybe jehovah wasn’t working out, so they decided to hedge their bets.

    Destroying your children via drugs and genital mutilation is another form of sacrifice.

    GIVE US YOUR KIDS SO WE CAN SLICE THEIR JIMMIES AND HACK THEIR TITTIES !!!!

  118. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    I hope Dovidas reads this – Tomorrow belongs to me!

    Outstanding work. I love Wings Over Scotland. You’ve completely destroyed him ahahahah.

    YES! Brilliant!

  119. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    Dovydas Kuliešas sounds like some kind of Lithuanian name.

    Last I checked… We left the EU.

    Your VISAs UP!

  120. James Che
    Ignored
    says:

    The youth have been brainwashed once before in history,
    They were buried for their beliefs en masse during WW2.

    We are now on the brink of WW3, are they ready today to die for their beliefs, for it is the youth that are called upon first, and as they die the next youthful generation are conscripted,

    Ahh, “global civic society” introduced in Scotland will target the easily brainwashed youth first to fight and die for their beliefs, the old fogies are usually left at home, and usually survive,

  121. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    #trigger warning. The Lithuanians fought with the NAZI party during WW2. Didn’t they? 50,000 Lithuanian Volunteers in the German Wehrmacht!

    Guess what Davidas…

    We won!

    Wayheyyy!

  122. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    The Scots are in the process of being extinguished as a people and as a nation. Not the English, the Scots.

    Clunky cliches and language like ‘blood and soil nationalism’ are often deployed by oppressors in their attempts to discredit a people’s legitimate right to exist.

    None but the Scots should have a say in their own future as a people and as a nation.

    None but the Scots should get to decide whether they continue to exist as a unique people or be assimilated by a foreign, an alien, culture.

    None but the Scots have any legitimate right whatsoever to participate in what are entirely Scottish affairs.

    It really isn’t the business of foreign nations and their peoples to dictate what the Scots do with their own lives and in their own country.

  123. Vivian O’Blivion
    Ignored
    says:

    It puzzles me that so many folk are willing to take the World Economic Forum at face value. Take a sceptical perspective and concentrate on their rather ostentatious presentation. It’s a clear psyop.

    Klaus Schwab looks like a Bond villain, dresses like a Bond villain, acts like a Bond villain and talks like a Bond villain. It’s all too obvious.

    Their events are geared to maximise exposure. Controversial issues such as the infamous talk on genetic engineering humans to make them allergic to consuming meat, are slickly filmed and distributed. They know this will cause outrage yet they actively seek out publicity. Everything is geared to distraction, camouflage and subterfuge.

    Running the WEF psyop is of course not cheap, so why is it necessary and what does it achieve?
    The WEF are running cover for nameless, faceless bureaucratic drones in Foggy Bottom who plot and conspire to manipulate Western society to a create a passive populace under a technocratic, dictatorial, Permanent State.

  124. Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    “Alba’s share would have been unaffected because there wasn’t enough time to make the case for Alba.”

    Ebok, I don’t think it was that. Alba’s message got through well enough, but because of Nicola’s Fatwa on Alex, the SNP loyalists who understood the second vote gave it to the Greens rather than Alba.

    SNP leadership and a very sizable number of their membership would rather cut off their own heads than rub shoulders with Alba.

    Alba needs to accept that now and stop being the wee, slightly better SNP.

    They should make their pitch on sovereignty and the Claim of Right, and stop saying people should give their first vote to the SNP. The SNP back in the day had to listen to Labour hold that gun to people’s heads ‘vote for them and you are letting in the Tories’. But eventually people ignored it and the SNP started climbing the rungs of the ladder to power.

    Same thing needs to happen now to the SNP.

  125. Bob W
    Ignored
    says:

    @David Hannah

    I prefer this Lithuanian

    https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCMuMtNL3bLLEJ__u0kuEb-A

  126. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    HE’S A NICE CARING SORTA GUY..FROM NORWAY.
    (Not for the squeamish)

    https://archive.ph/Hhb5b

    If you log on to the internet…

  127. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode – Cultural appropriation began in the 1920’s. It started in Edinburgh and was warned about by McDiarmid. It spread to the highlands and islands. An alien culture now pervades in these places. It is now on the march in every well to do town in Scotland. The only sanctuary for indigenous Scots are the working class areas of Glasgow, Lanarkshire, West Lothian , Dundee and Fife. Every other area of Scotland is being eaten away at bit by bit. So gradual we hardly notice.

    Scotland’s unique culture is being lost. Not by diversity. Instead by a monolithic migration from a single country. That’s what happens when you are not independent.

    It’s what happened to the Gaels , who were removed from the islands. To be replaced by settlers from Yorkshire and Surrey.

  128. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    In 2021, inflow from the rest of the UK was 14,400 higher (+34%) than the previous year, while 8900 more people moved to Scotland from the rest of the UK than left.

  129. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s been a while but John C picks up and runs with the #FranchiseKlaxon

    Aye, lets just give everyone that rocks up a vote on Scotland’s constitutional future, even though they may have only just arrived, may have no intention or long term commitment to staying here long, and have a get out of the shit card to play if they don’t like it here because they have the ability to escape and return to their homeland if they choose.
    It’s sooo progressive to dilute democracy and deny a peoples their right to self-determination.
    And for clarity, calling to restrict aspects of the franchise like voting eligibility through duration of residence is not necessarily blood and soil ethnic nationalism.

    Another side to immigration is that by folk making the choice to leave their homeland because it is more advantageous to go elsewhere, it means that their homeland loses citizens that could have stayed and voted to better influence and steer the course their homeland takes to better suit there ideals.

    You can throw in that all we need to do is better convince folk, but you handily omit to acknowledge the massive influencing power of the Unionist controlled media that Scots are up against, and good luck trying to explain the complexities of Scotland’s political predicament and voting systems to folk with little if any knowledge of the subject and limited comprehension of the English language.
    I know quite a few EU nationals that just rock up here for summer, pay little if any taxes but use our health services, then go home to avoid our harsh winters. Even after informative conversations with them they remain utterly clueless on the intricacies and nuances of Scottish politics.
    I have an English neighbour who has lived here for decades but she didn’t vote in the 2014 Indyref because she felt it was for Scots to decide, which I felt was a very principled position to take. I’d certainly not feel I had any right to move to another country and have an instant right to vote on its future without meeting at least some basic enfranchisement criteria.

  130. Confused
    Ignored
    says:

    I have mentioned before that england is destined to fall beneath the waves and some people might have thought I was joking, well …

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2024/05/uk-banks-will-go-bust-because-of-climate-change.html

    – and what happens will be either a massively expensive program of coastal flood defences, or mass migration to “higher lying lands” … either way, we are on the hook for this, yet again.

    The grand infrastructure programs are not going well – the nuclear power is already well behind, and for a shocking read, check out the telegraph of yesterday which gives a detailed and incredibly frank account of the new nuke underground dump (a cavern twice the volume of wembley stadium) which will take generations to build and will cost a fortune. Revealed in the article is how we already have, literally, a million tons of radioactive shit, and it was recommended to stop making it, way back, because we produced too much … they did not.

    – the “good news” is, amazingly, it is NOT in Scotland (the 2 proposed sites are off cumbria, or the yorkshire coast), but I wouldn’t count on that because – english political opposition will be fierce and they can always hurt their politicians at the ballot box, whereas Scots are outvoted 10 to 1, and have no political power whatsoever, and “representation” that is irrelevant.

  131. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    “If people want Scottish independence to be based around blood and soil ethnic nationalism then I’d vote to stay in the union. I want no part of that, neither I think would a number of other people regardless of where they were born.”

    John C.

    Like I said other nations do not give a vote to non nationals on constitutional matter is that blood and soil nationalism in your eyes or is it just in Scotland that its blood and soil nationalism?

    Of course you could say that Brexit was a blood an soil nationalist movement derived in England and forced upon Scots/Welsh/NI.

    On Brexit which was, and still is an utter disaster, ex-Welsh FM Carwyn Jones said that Brexit cut clean across Scottish sovereignty and it did, he (Carwyn Jones) like many Scots who want to ditch this rancid union were surprised and dismayed that Sturgeon chose to do nothing about Brexit, rather she chose to save the fetid union instead of saving Scots from it the treacherous b*stard.

    On the 2014 indyref in my opinion enfranchising everyone and their dog was the only real mistake Alex Salmond made, Scots voted yes, and if the vote was restricted to Scots we’d have kicked this bucket of shit union into touch and ploughed our own path.

    Still I rather like Ash Regan’s Voter Empowerment Mechanism where every election is a not only an election on government but an election on independence, in which we only need to win once and its adios to Westminster whilst flipping the bird.

  132. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    Remember watch what Swinney and his party does not what they say.

    “John Swinney has claimed independence can be delivered within five years as the arguments are “compelling”.

    The First Minister said ending the Union was the “answer” to the cost-of-living crisis and Brexit which he said were the result of decisions taken in Westminster.

    The new SNP leader is facing claims of going soft on his party’s key aim after he scrapped the post of independence minister in his reshuffle

    But he offered hope to independence supporters on the timescale of a new Scottish state.

    When asked whether independence could happen in five years, Swinney told Sky News: “I think independence can be delivered in that timescale because the arguments for it are compelling.”

  133. Mark Beggan
    Ignored
    says:

    Hey! Mr Law man!
    When is the people being hearing the sound of the gavel.
    Mr Law man.
    People hearin the sound of the gavel.
    Mr Law man.
    Where is the swift sword of justice.
    Mr Law man.
    When your scales be a balanced.
    Mr Law Man.
    When will the folks getta justice.
    Mr Law man?

  134. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    Why was this in private, we pay their wages and have a right to know what was said. Lets see if the Parliaments standard Committee takes any action, Matheson has been caught lying and should resign from being an MSP altogether.

    “A Holyrood watchdog quizzed shamed iPad expenses MSP Michael Matheson at a secret hearing.

    The Parliament’s Standards Committee heard from Matheson over the £11,000 data roaming bill, but the public were blocked from watching.”

    iPad man, “He initially claimed he did know know what was to blame but later admitted his children had used the parliamentary device to watch football.

    He was also accused of lying to journalists about the matter.”

    “A parliamentary probe found he had made “improper” use of the Parliament’s publicly-funded expenses system and the matter was referred to the Committee.”

    “Members on the committee could recommend a stiff sanction such as suspension if any breach of the MSP code of conduct if judged to be serious.”

  135. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    Swinney and the SNP Clique (Old Guard) chomping at the bit to introduce the GRRB back into the Holyrood chamber even though the public like the Hate Crime Laws don’t want it.

    Like I said watch what Swinney and Clique do not what they say, next up juryless trials forget cheap energy or good housing and education or the NHS.

    “THE Scottish Government has issued a statement on the Gender Recognition Reform Bill following an interview with John Swinney on Sky News on Friday morning.

    The bill, which makes it easier for trans people to get a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) was passed in Holyrood in 2022 but was later blocked from becoming law by a section 35 order from the UK Government.

    When asked by Sky News presenter Wilfred Frost whether the Scottish Government was going to “abandon” the policy, the First Minister (below) said: “We quite simply can’t proceed with it. It’s legislation that can’t be implemented, so we cannot take that forward.””

    However, the Scottish Government has since issued a statement after Swinney’s response was interpreted as confirmation that the legislation would be abandoned.”

    “Following the interview, a Scottish Government spokesperson said: “The GRR Bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament. If the UK Government lifted its legal block – the section 35 order – it would become law.“The problem is that the current UK government has said they will not.

    “The Scottish Government’s position is simple – UK Government should lift their section 35 order.

    “They have made it clear however that they will not, and until they do, it is simply not legal to implement the legislation.””

  136. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Re the franchise klaxon..

    Scotlands treaty is for sovereign Scots to decide.

    None of us can just rock up to their country & expect or demand a vote on their constitutional affairs.

    They’re perfectly entitled to vote in council & general elections but not on constitutional matters.

    Imagine our fate decided by Heinz 57 varieties. It’d be lost before the ballot was even declared open & how stupid to let other people decide if we can end an internationally recognised treaty of Union with England or not.

    It’d be as stupid as offering everyone in the UK a vote on a “Scottish” independence referendum too cause they’d want a vote too if everyone else can have one.

    Where do these people spring from? LOL

    Don’t feel bad. If/when the shoe is on the other foot, don’t expect a voting card.

  137. Xaracen
    Ignored
    says:

    @John C; Your blood and soil ethnic nationalism rant is inappropriate because in Scotland the true owners of Scotland’s sovereignty are the very ethnic Scots whose sovereignty you want to sideline by allowing others to make decisions they may not be entitled to make on the matter of independence.

    Under Scotland’s constitution, Scotland’s people are sovereign, and as such they are the true owners of their country. Major constitutional matters such as independence should be decided by a country’s owners and not its guests, unless those owners themselves agree to permit it. So before you go around handing out the keys of Scotland’s future to non-Scots, you should first be asking Scotland’s actual owners what they think of that idea.

    It is for precisely that reason the UN’s decolonisation recommendations are that the autochthonous population be prioritised in any franchise for a nation’s vote on independence from a coloniser country.

    Scotland is in that situation.

    In that case, ethnic nationalism is just a proxy for identifying who Scotland’s sovereign owners actually are, so that they get to vote, while those who are not Scotland’s sovereign owners don’t get to muddy the outcome.

    Bottom line: guests in a country are not entitled by default to take part in determining a country’s future; that’s a right they must earn, and it must be the natives who decide how guests might earn that right, not the guests.

  138. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    The EU is over.

    Von Der liar was sent in to crash it’s economy to make America great again & she’s doing a fantastic job. The whole world knows this apart from the SNP it seems LOL

    The SNP have been too busy fannying around with the yoof wing to notice the meter ran out on their light.

    Swinney & 5 yrs eh? How convenient to be the same time as an election term. If the arguments are compelling for indy then why isn’t he telling everyone else what they are? There is zero point to those losers otherwise.

  139. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Xaracen @ 5:07pm

    Well said, Xaracen. Excellent comment.

  140. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Geri

    Aye, Scots jist need to try harder to convince folk is bullshit when the goalposts can be so easily moved by those that hold real power and influence.

    For examples of that power and influence being applied see how Corbyn was dealt with.
    And see how well these endured when the real power was exerted to see them off.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/flying-with-wings/

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-cat-and-all-the-pigeons/

    FFS even some of our “politicians” don’t even know how the voting systems work.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/dawn-of-the-imbeciles/

    But I should be able to just rock up to the local electoral office in France with my B pass French O Grade, kenning next to heehaw about le politics de Francaise, but having once built a really competitive regulation compliant Peugeot 205 challenge rally car engine for a pal, drank plenty appellation controllée red wine during the couple of summers I spent as a watersports instructor sur leur lacs et mer, and state je m’appelle Dan ya bass, donner moi une vote on votre future s’il vous plait.

  141. Spartan 117
    Ignored
    says:

    Swiney still flogging the GRRB deid horse. Continuity Sturgeonism alive and well.

  142. twathater
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s amazing that so many Scots??? who profess to be independence supporters are quite willing to be held captive for another 300+ years by people who have no cultural attachment to being Scottish yet they insist their progressive and inclusive attitude will win independence support
    BREAKING NEWS, Alex Salmond gave the new people all sorts of progressiveness and inclusion AND the VOTE and they still told him AND us to Fuck Off
    What the progressives fail to realise is that the majority of people voting from the ROuk are quite happy to remain in the UK, they have attachments to the UK which supercede loyalty to their new home Scotland,as long as they can get cheaper bigger, better housing,pension stability in the UK, free and better NHS care, free dental care,free bus passes,fuck independence, they have the best of both worlds, they DON’T NEED independence to thrive WE DO,how many English, Welsh, NI,or other nation new people give a shit about being Scottish, they ALL have their own nationality but by coming here they PROVE it’s NOT about nationhood it’s about personal gain,people thinking that blood and soil nationalism is an insult or something to be ashamed of GO and ask some Pakistani, Indian , Thai or many other nationalities what they feel about their nationality
    I am sick of politicians and others giving our nationhood away like some cheap suit

  143. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Xaracen;
    the true owners of Scotland’s sovereignty are the very ethnic Scots…”

    Who decides what an “ethnic Scot” is? You? Are you going to have every Scot submit to a DNA test?
    Is Alba’s Ash Regan, with her Irish name and heritage, an “ethnic Scot” under your definition? Is Sarwar? Is Yousaf? Is English-born Alex Cole-Hamilton? Seems to me you’ve just disqualified most of the party leaders in Holyrood.
    That sounds very much like the National Socialists deciding who was, or wasn’t, German, and that you had to be “Aryan” to be an “ethnic German.”

  144. Derek
    Ignored
    says:

    “… je m’appelle Dan ya bass, donner moi une vote …”

    My pal in Finland has a vote there, but he is now a Finnish citizen – it was easier in the long run to do that rather than deal with all the post-Brexit shenanigans, even bearing in mind that there’s a language test.

    I don’t know if that includes votes in referendumses.

  145. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    Any response from Dovydas?

    Harvie was a disgrace as well in the Scottish Parliament. He’s another fascist who thinks he’s “on the right side of history.”

    Whoever came up with that phrase is a bell end. I heard it years ago in 2014. And it was a horrible thing to say back them as it is now.

  146. David Hannah
    Ignored
    says:

    Also I don’t think John Swinney will sack Matheson. He’s got a scandal brewing. Matheson is the embezzler of public money. He’s the Moroccan fondler and worst dad of the year!

    Honey, I shopped the kids!

  147. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    I think only Scots should vote on the countries future. People who are born here and live here. Or people who were schooled in Scotland and remained here.

    Not retirees from Surrey or students from Oxford. What the hell do they know about being Scottish. Being Scottish is not just a geographical convenience. It’s about our culture, bonds and identity. It’s not voting for a government. It’s voting for our country’s right to exist. Why would incomers think they are entitled to block what natives want. That’s colonialism in a nutshell.

  148. Campbell clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Big jock:
    Your denial of voting would mean that Bath England resident Stu Campbell would be ineligible—the one person who’s done more to promote Independence than anyone not named Salmond.
    Try again!

  149. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    He wouldn’t get the vote because he doesn’t live in Scotland. Same as 2014. What’s your point caller?

    But if he moved home he would get the vote as a native resident Scot. Hardly controversial is it.

  150. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “Who decides what an “ethnic Scot” is?”

    Let me think…is it the French? The Spanish? The Americans? The Swiss? The Chinese? The Norwegians? The Columbians? The Inuit people? The Abacaxis (no wait they’re now extinct due to colonisation)? The Beothuk (no wait they’re now extinct due to colonisation)? The Lucayan People (no wait they’re now extinct due to colonisation)? Or should it be the English, they like deciding things for other peoples.

    Wait, I have it. Could it be the ethnic indigenous Scots themselves?

    Now why didn’t I think of them first?

  151. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Who decides what an ethnic Scot is?

    Geography i.e being born in Scotland.

    This is not exactly taxing my brain.

  152. Billy Carlin
    Ignored
    says:

    David Hannah 10 May 2024 1:37pm

    As I have said on here before THE VICTORS WRITE THE HISTORY and the gullible masses take all of that in in their brainwashing and indoctrination in school etc and from the corrupt controlled mainstream media etc.

    150,000 Jews all the way up to the rank of General fought for the SS, as did 89,000 Muslims, 44,000 Cossacks, 25,000 from India and thousands from many other countries as well.

    These people all fought for FREEDOM especially FREEDOM from this SCAM massive Debt and Interest Banking System that has ENSLAVED just about everyone on this planet while the Allied people were LIED to as usual into going to war to take out the Debt and Interest and Inflation FREE Germany, Japan (and Italy until they rejoined the Allies and ended up in massive debt like the rest of the Allies apart from the USSR that was allowed FREE Credit because the USSR was owned and controlled by the same Mafias that still own and control most of this planet today INCLUDING China hence why they sent most of the Wests jobs there.

    I laugh at the people who are clueless about what was really going on back then especially those who are supposed to want Independence and are clueless about the Corrupt controlled Banking/Financial System that Frank Baum was warning about in his book The Wizard Of Oz – that book is also warning about the Corrupt Controlled Legal System as well via the Birth Certificate “Strawman” etc and especially the dumb “unionists too stupid too realise that the Crown etc that they are so loyal to is behind this SCAM System and is being run by Mafias that have enslaved them and their families from the day they were born – the same Mafias that have DELIBERATELY brought in all of these Great Depressions/Cost of Living Crisis’s etc that Hitlers Germany, Japan and Mussolini’s Italy escaped from until the Allied people were suckered into bringing down because these Mafias did not want the people in all of the other countries waking up and questioning why their corrupt puppet governments/political parties were not doing the same re printing their own Debt and Interest and Inflation FREE money.

    If you want REAL Independence then you are going to have to think Independently and get rid of your Brainwashing and Indoctrination and educate yourself to REAL history and what is really going on.

  153. twathater
    Ignored
    says:

    The indigenous Aborigines of Australia asked for a permanent representation in the Australian parliament to discuss and ensure Aboriginal matters received proper focus and attention, it was known as the ABORIGINAL and TORRES STRAIT ISLANDER VOICE which they had been asking the parliament for years

    The parliament agreed to a referendum of the people ALL the people on 14th October 2023,the result was that the NEW Australians overwhelmingly voted AGAINST the proposal

    NO 9,452,792

    YES 6,286,894

    So unbelievably the NEW Australians told the ORIGINAL AUSTRALIANS to FUCK OFF, does that ring any bells with our progressive inclusive ALL are welcome here, or do we have to wait until they erect the reservations or encampments

  154. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Jock says:
    11 May, 2024 at 12:29 am
    Who decides what an ethnic Scot is?
    Geography i.e being born in Scotland.
    This is not exactly taxing my brain.

    Your answer is so laughably stupid, perhaps you ought to have taxed your brain.

    Ethnicity is not determined by geography. The two are different.
    Maybe if I repeat that, it might sink in….
    Ethnicity is not determined by geography.

    By your standard, the LibDem leader Alex Cole-Hamilton is not an “ethnic Scot” and would not be eligible to vote. Nor is former SNP leader Michael Russell. In fact, the two founders of the SNP (Cunningham Graham and the Duke of Montrose) were both English-born and thus, according to you, not Scottish. The SNP’s first president was born in India.

    I could go on ….

    Try again.

  155. Stoker
    Ignored
    says:

    There is a perfectly good case to be made *FOR* the introduction of some form of restrictions on who has eligibility to vote in another indy referendum. In 2014, for example, there were thousands of folk given a vote who no longer live in Scotland and who, at that time, never had any intentions of living in Scotland long-term. Thousands of folk who got to dictate what we in Scotland would be subjected to long after they had f@cked off. That should never be allowed to happen again.

    Also in 2014 hundreds of thousands, if not millions, got to help the ‘No’ side promote a ‘No’ vote from other parts of the “UK” and abroad. Some of them were even bussed up to Scotland to walk our streets and gatherings promoting their “Don’t go, we love you” shite etc. The conditions attached to the 2014 vote were a nice fairyland idea but in reality was the basis for our defeat, along with a massive media campaign against ‘Yes’. A UK media campaign responsible for echoing every sinew of “Project Fear” 24/7 right into our homes.

    Only with hindsight can we now see just how badly the deck was stacked against us. Still, with all of that said, we managed to achieve a remarkable final effort from a 27% starting point. The reason the BritNats absolutely fear another indyref is they know they will lose it. All their lies and manipulations have now been well-and-truly exposed. And their response? Cover everything in The Butchers Apron. LOL!

  156. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Campbell Clansman @ 9:35 pm

    “Who decides what an “ethnic Scot” is?”

    Ethnicity is an important feature in terms of the struggle for liberation of an oppressed ‘people’.

    As Northcode implies, ethnic Scots ken wha they are. However, in a colonial society the more assimilated native has a intentionally confused identity, and hence a strong desire or ‘craving’ to be like the colonizer, resulting in a ‘false persona’ (Purves), or ‘cultural illusion’ (Gaughan).

    In the colonial situation, perhaps the main point, as Albert Memmi wrote, is that:

    “Being oppressed as a group, the colonized must necessarily adopt a national and ethnic form of liberation from which he (i.e. the colonizer) cannot but be excluded”.

    In other words, the liberation (i.e. independence) of a colonized ‘people’ is a matter only for the oppressed ethnic group; the colonizer (and assimilated elites, albeit to a lesser degree) is ‘a more privileged being, an usurper’, and hence has more interest in maintaining the status quo and an oppressive exploitative system.

    And, as Professor Michael Hechter noted in the context of the ‘UK Internal Colonialism Model’, the development of independence movements throughout the Celtic Periphery “reflects the ethnic solidarity of the oppressed groups”.

    https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/15/determinants-of-independence-ethnicity/

  157. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    I wouldn’t give Alex Cole Hamilton the shite off my shoe, never mind a vote on my country’s future. He was born and educated in England, and has no Scottish connection other than moving here. Some people shouldn’t get a vote end of. Mike Russell has Scottish family and was educated in Scotland, he is not the same as diddies like Cole Hamilton.

  158. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Which brings me to another point. Our sporting teams are now littered with plastic jocks. Parents yes, but grandparents and the like no. Too many failed English players in our football team , which deprives actual Scots getting picked for their country.

  159. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    Will just tack this link re NuScots on end of thread.

    https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2024/05/10/benefits-in-scotland/

  160. Bruce Williamson
    Ignored
    says:

    What happened to the “Hate” badges that were meant to be sent out?

  161. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Edinburgh and it’s cultural appropriation and even the very accent. Is an example to the rest of Scotland, of what happens when it’s native population is pushed out.

    They used to call it the Athens of the North. Culturally it is the Cambridge of the north. It didn’t help that the natives bought into the anglicisation of the culture and spoken word. Accent is important. Because it defines thd history of a land. That’s why you cross the border and you know right away, you are in another country. You just have to speak with the locals.

    In Edinburgh they look down on Glasgow because they speak with their native tongue. They are in fact cultural snobs. That’s not to say there aren’t pockets of Edinburgh where you still hear Ken and Aye. But the middle classes have an Anglo accent.

    I love Rugby but you never sea a stadium covered in Saltires. Yet Hampden is a sea of white and blue. Why is that? It can only be that they view their country differently and are unionist in the main.

    At moment there is a mass exodus of middle class Angles coming to Scotland. Ironically they will homogenise Scotland into the very thing they left England for. That’s just what the English do, they have done it everywhere in the world. We are their last colony, their last hope and their easiest exit from a toxic culture in England.

    We might be the last generation of Scots. In 50 years without independence the migration will explode. And native Scots pushed out, much like the city of Edinburgh.

  162. Dave Hansell
    Ignored
    says:

    Mr Kuliešas is a long way behind the curve in regards to the restrictions on the rights of young people.

    Because the situation is far worse than he realises than being unable to choose their own puberty and has been for some time.

    Even a cursory glance at the present number of legal restrictions placed on the rights of young people reveals the extent of what Mr Kuliešas sees as problematic.

    For instance, young people are legally prohibited from purchasing alcohol and tobacco products; solvents and sharp objects. They cannot legally marry or enlist in the armed forces or even be employed in full time work to earn an independent living. They are even legally required to spend five days a week for some seventy five per cent of the year in what presumably those like Mr Kuliešas would regard as ‘forced education camps’.

    Even worse, their rights to self identify are severely restricted to, at best, gender. They cannot, for example, self identify what age they want to be in order to access the State Pension and associated benefits such as free travel on what passes for ‘public’ transport.

    They are unable to self-identify as another species – restricting their ‘freedom of choice’ to human medical services. Even their ‘freedom’ to obtain educational qualifications without effort by self-identifying as a genius is denied them.

    Mr Kuliešas is seriously confused if he thinks he is representative of the political or progressive left. His ravings reveal that he and his like are nothing more than ultra libertarians who, like Margaret Thatcher and Ayan Rand, do not accept the concept of society. Only the sovereign individual.

    Scotland, along with the rest of the Collective West, is a State run exclusively along the lines laid out in the novel ‘Lord of the flies’.

  163. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Jock @ 9:27 am

    “We might be the last generation of Scots. In 50 years without independence the migration will explode. And native Scots pushed out, much like the city of Edinburgh.”

    Demographics are a key factor in any colonial situation and used by imperial powers as a method of divide and rule. Scotland has been subject to numerous imperial population management policies since the violated Union treaty began, starting with clearances, evictions and transportations, followed by Empire Resettlement programs and other incentives amidst enforced economic decline and mass unemployment resulting in removal of between 3-4 million Scots; this was combined with in-migration of a meritocracy from rest-UK, mostly from England. Historic early census data tells us there were already some 30,000 people from England living in Edinburgh during the late Victorian period, and mostly oriented towards professional and managerial jobs.

    Based on available and historic census data we don’t have 50 years, or perhaps even half that; this is because independence obviously becomes more difficult when an indigenous people who comprise the bulk of the anti-colonial movement falls close to or below 50% of the population (as in New Caledonia). Scotland appears to be very rapidly headed in that direction, if not there already:

    https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/10/26/determinants-of-independence-demographics-2/

  164. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    Looking from the outside in (as is my wont), it all seems very simple to me: the 2014 Indy Franchise – which was straightforward and fully inclusive – came within 5 points of victory. FIVE POINTS.

    It seems to me, then, that it wasn’t the voter qualifications that was the issue, it was the nature of the offer itself? Although clearly effective – 45% was impressive and much higher than was assumed by the Unionist Press at least – it still wasn’t quite enough.

    Why look for complexity where there is none? If the Indy offer had been a little bit more attractive and convincing than it was, maybe another 1 in 20 Scots voters would put an X in the Yes box. No need to change the voter franchise (thereby – quite rightly IMO – incurring the disdain of important, interested third parties e.g. the international community), just make the offer better and more credible.

    How do you do that? You guessed it folks, put together a detailed, credible route map and prospectus for Indy that adequately answers all the big questions that stakeholders rightly have (ergo, something along the same lines as, but much better than, the 2013 SNP White Paper, preferably co-authored by recognised, non lefty nutter economists etc.).

    The gerrymandering alternatives being discussed here leave a nasty aftertaste in the mouth. Scotland is better than this, you’re better than this.

  165. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    The chairperson of the Alba Party was born in England.
    Under the fantasy formula of Big Jock and other mini-minded fanatics here, she would not be allowed to vote for (or against) Scottish independence!

  166. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Captain Caveman @ 11:10 am

    “the 2014 Indy Franchise – which was straightforward and fully inclusive”

    The UK-Scottish Government used what is a highly irregular ‘local government’ franchise which is never used anywhere else for a national referendum, more especially on a major constitutional matter; permitting non-nationals such a vote in a national referendum is not reciprocal in any other country.

    The SNP Scottish Government were/are either extremely naive or complicit. I recall Sturgeon telling a US audience afterwards that adopting a standard national referendum franchise would be ‘too complicated’!

  167. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Captain Caveman @ 11:10 am

    “If the Indy offer had been a little bit more attractive and convincing than it was, maybe another 1 in 20 Scots voters would put an X in the Yes box. ”

    On the other hand, had Scotland used a ‘secondary criteria’ UN-agreed franchise similar to New Caledonia, the Yes vote would have exceeded 60% and Scotland would now be independent.

    So the real question is, why did the SNP Scottish Government not use a similar UN sanctioned franchise as New Caledonia, rather than the irregular local government franchise Westminster stuck in the Scotland Act?

  168. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “So the real question is, why did the SNP Scottish Government not use a similar UN sanctioned franchise as New Caledonia, rather than the irregular local government franchise Westminster stuck in the Scotland Act?”

    Only three reasons I can think of, Alf. Naivety. Stupidity. Or complicity.

    Or maybe it was all three.

  169. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s vital (for both sides, but most especially for the Agents of Change – the Indy side) to be seen to be completely above board, to maximise legitimacy either way. IMO, nowt else will do, to my ever-simplistic, straightforward thinking.

    One man, one vote. What could be simpler? If you’re a UK national, whose primary residence is Scotland, surely that’s one vote.

    Again IMO, anything else looks like you’re gaming the system. Plus, personally, I find the notion of “indigenous” people being more equal than others – however it’s dressed up – highly regressive.

  170. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @ all the blood and soil types soiling this place again (is it a full moon, or somehow related to the aurora I wonder…? Sheesh…!):

    The case for franchise restriction and ethnic sorting is neither clear, nor undisputed. It still falls at the first hurdle proposed by Rev Stu many months ago in his twitter fisking of the whole concept.

    It’s regressive, would you cost you more votes than it gained, and it ABSOLUTELY contrary to custom and practice in virtually all other self determinations referendums since 1945. It would fatally weaken support for independence from the international community.

    Rev Stu’s original July 2021 fisking is reproduced for the hard of thinking bigots below:

    If you want to deny 20% of the people who live in Scotland the vote in a referendum because they were born somewhere else, we’re not on the same side. If you want their votes, fucking well persuade them. If you can’t, your case is shit.
    And stop whining that by saying this I’m trying to “shut down debate”. I have no power and no desire to stop you debating it. You can debate it all you want. I’m not reporting you to Twitter or the police. I’m just not interested.
    We debated this in 2011 and we came to the right decision. Nothing has happened that justifies abandoning that principle in my view. You can’t just disenfranchise people because you think they’ll vote the wrong way.
    ’As well as being morally wrong, it’s almost certainly self-defeating. The Scotland you’d be trying to sell people under that franchise is a very different place to the one we were advocating in 2014, and very much for the worse.
    That, of course, is true in many ways. If we got a referendum tomorrow I don’t in all honesty know if I could bring myself to campaign in it, because it’d be a *de facto* campaign for Nicola Sturgeon’s vision of a hellish, intolerant, incompetent and corrupt Scotland.
    But that’s not a decision I need to lose sleep over, because we’re not getting a referendum tomorrow, or next year, or the year after that, or the year after that.
    But I’ve officially lost any urge to even think about it, if even the people opposed to that awful vision just have a different kind of awful vision, of a country where only “ethnic Scots” have a say. Bollocks to that.”

  171. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Caveman: One man, one vote. What could be simpler? If you’re a UK national, whose primary residence is Scotland, surely that’s one vote.

    Again IMO, anything else looks like you’re gaming the system. Plus, personally, I find the notion of “indigenous” people being more equal than others – however it’s dressed up – highly regressive.

    Absolutely correct. Fanatics like Baird and his echo chamber Northcode are really angling for the following on voting:

    1) Only “True Scots” are allowed to vote.
    2) A “True Scot” would support Independence.
    3) Therefore, anyone opposing Independence isn’t a “True Scot” and shouldn’t be allowed to vote.

    That way they can obtain a 100% “yes” vote!

  172. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Alf Baird 1.29pm

    The reason Scotland didn’t (and indeed couldn’t) use the same criteria as New Caledonia, is that Scotland is not a non self governing territory recognised by the UN as such.

    This really isn’t rocket science. Even if blood and soil nativists had somehow managed to persuade the progressive, big-tent, civic nationalist movement in Scotland prior to 2014 that it SHOULD restrict the franchise, there is not way of knowing how many of those who voted Yes in 2014 would have refused to do so for a referendum franchise based on bigotry.

    The way to win is to make a better case, increase turnout, and ensure that more than 52% of native born Scots grow a pair.

  173. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    I disagree. There is one country with 10 times the population of Scotland over the border. They have a vested interest in controlling Scotland. Their citizens are actively preventing independence by voting in our referendum.

    Soon there will be 12/13% of them voting no by some 80%. So essentially even if 60% of Scots vote yes. They can overturn the majority.

    In what way is this fair?

  174. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy good luck getting independence on that franchise. Have you seen the demographics.

    It’s all very well throwing terms around like blood and soil. But you will be forever British if its the 2014 franchise.

    You will never convince the majority of English people that Scotland is not part of their own country. Its a mental state.

  175. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Quhy is hit dae ye think, Alf, thaim wha appere solit cannae seim tae gresp the conceate o’ colonialism an hou it wirks?

  176. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    “Andy good luck getting independence on that franchise. Have you seen the demographics.

    It’s all very well throwing terms around like blood and soil. But you will be forever British if its the 2014 franchise.”

    Now see, I do find the likely sentiment behind posts like this as quite revealing. Is it really the case that the Indy side could never present a laudable, credible, well costed and well thought out case for independence to the Scottish electorate at large (i.e. not just “indigenous” Scots alone), that they’d likely vote for? When you think about it, it really is incredible.

    Are you, in effect, saying that so such case exists, even if serious, professional effort and graft is put into making said case by talented people with the right skillset (as opposed to poor, outmoded source material, half-arsed propaganda, half-truths and soundbites)?

    Even I, as an English Unionist, would have much greater faith (and indeed fear) that such a case COULD well be made within reason, which could stand on its own two feet and would not have to rely on what I regard as regressive tactics appealing to the worst political sentiment/excluding anyone from the vote on the basis of ethnicity (good grief…).

    Thank goodness no-one seems to agree, and it’s all talk of 300 year old guff, “colonialism” etc. Long may it continue.

  177. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    “The way to win is to make a better case”

    Indeed, glad we agree this isn’t a “Yoon trick” but is, in fact, an absolute prerequisite, Andy.

  178. twathater
    Ignored
    says:

    AND the franchise fanny returns to gobble up his never ending VOMIT and as usual sucking up rev Stu’s arse in the process

    It shows the amount of exceptionalism and self delusion of some people, mostly it appears the engerlish when they come on to a independence seeking website to deride and denigrate everything about Scotland and its people , it’s amazing how they survive with such amounts of hubris that they think they can tell Scots how to run their country whilst all the time ignoring the fucking corrupt cesspit of WM that the ENGLISH continuously vote for, one would think they would be better concentrating on getting their fellow ENGLISH MEN educated on why they are reviled by their former colonies and most of the world

  179. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Jock says:
    11 May, 2024 at 2:20 pm
    I disagree. There is one country with 10 times the population of Scotland over the border. They have a vested interest in controlling Scotland. Their citizens are actively preventing independence by voting in our referendum.

    Soon there will be 12/13% of them voting no by some 80%. So essentially even if 60% of Scots vote yes. They can overturn the majority.

    Leaving aside your loathsome notions of “Our” referendum (shades of 1933!), your assertions about “overturning” are laughably wrong. Even under your scenario, the yes side would still win, with 54.8% of the vote. The laughable math is in keeping with the laughable point of view.

    I suggest you take a course in remedial math.

  180. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    It doesn’t matter what case is made. You are asking Scots to start 10% behind with the English block vote.

    The English didn’t vote no based on the pitch. They voted no because they are British. Being a nation is actually about culture and identity, not economics. Without those things there would never even have been the SNP or a referendum.

    I repeat you will never convince the majority of English people to break up what they perceive as One Nation.

    You are childlike in your naivity. And you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

    I don’t care how we get independence, and I do not want it to get richer.

  181. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    A recent example is Ireland. They didn’t vote based on a pitch, they voted because they were a nation and Irish. Its only complicated when you make it so.

  182. Xaracen
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis said;

    “The way to win is to make a better case, increase turnout, and ensure that more than 52% of native born Scots grow a pair.”

    Thank you, Andy, for the concession that the native born Scots actually did vote for independence in 2014. Those native born Scots are the sovereigns that own Scotland under their own Treaty-guaranteed constitution, and independence should have been followed through at that point because their decision was the only constitutionally valid one, having been made by a majority of Scotland’s actual sovereigns. That the non-sovereigns voted against independence is irrelevant despite their greater majority because their decision could have no constitutional standing in Scotland to deny a formal decision made by its actual sovereigns.

    Big Eck doesn’t make many mistakes, but that was one of the worst. He didn’t properly understand what ‘Scotland’s people own the sovereignty of Scotland’ really meant, and thus that the outcome of any plebiscite of a sovereign electorate must be deemed compelling in their own territory.

    Constitutions and sovereignty are very important to any country, just ask Westminster, it knows all about those.

  183. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s arithmetic Campbell , and it’s Maths not Math!

    My arithmetic wasn’t a calculation just a lower guesstimate based on current migration patterns. There may well be 15% more English at the next referendum.

    But if you must play the man instead of the ball. Then your argument must be weak as piss.

  184. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @ 2:19 pm

    “The reason Scotland didn’t (and indeed couldn’t) use the same criteria as New Caledonia, is that Scotland is not a non self governing territory recognised by the UN as such.”

    Scotland is a ‘non self-governing territory’, which is precisely why Scots want to reclaim our sovereignty and become self-governing again. A country does not have to be designated by the UN as such, this is simply our political reality, and as we know the UN has historically been misled on Scotland’s ‘equal’ status.

    The reason Scotland used an irregular local government franchise for our national referendum is simply because the UK Government and its colonial administration decided to impose it. A more determined and savvy national independence organisation could have had UN inputs all along, if necessary, and could have adopted a proper national franchise.

    No matter if Scots are/are not ‘Listed’ as a NSGT for decolonization, the UN has a major interest in this matter given that the Scots are actively seeking self-determination, and national independence would of course create a new UN member state. Hence UN inputs, support and advice should have been sought by the dominant national party and still could be, instead of Scotland depending on and being led by one-sided Westminster diktat.

  185. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t remember an outrage when the English denied EU citizens a vote on Brexit. Yes a block who had a vested interest in keeping the UK in the EU.

    I don’t remember the EU or UN stepping in to deny the legitimacy of the vote. Nor that Scotland voted remain , yet we are frightened of upsetting English sensibilities.

  186. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Jock @ 4:07 pm

    “Being a nation is actually about culture and identity, not economics.”

    Yes indeed, long-established postcolonial theory confirms that culture is THE central feature of any independence movement, and much as Frantz Fanon wrote that:

    “the desire for nationhood is a cultural emotion”, and;

    “the conscious and organized undertaking by a colonized people to re-establish the sovereignty of that nation constitutes the most complete and obvious cultural manifestation that exists”

    As peoples in self-determination conflict are linguistically and hence culturally divided, this explains why the independence movement is composed mainly of Scots language speakers who identify as Scots, much more so than those who are against independence / decolonization, the latter to a larger extent culturally Anglophone and British-identifying.

    Which is rather similar to the Quebec, Catalan, Irish and most other cultural divides in instances of self-determination conflict between distinct ‘peoples’ and ethnic groups, which is often obscured by the procedures of ‘cultural imperialism’ (control of media, education, language deprivation etc) and hence ‘assimilation’.

  187. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    “Being a nation is actually about culture and identity, not economics.”

    Not if you have a house (or two), a large accrued pension pot, a good job, kids in school and bills to pay it’s not. Or at least, not in my opinion.

  188. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    In Francis Ford Coppola’s 1979 Vietnam war movie ‘Apocalypse Now’, based on the novel ‘Heart of Darkness’ by Joseph Conrad, there’s a scene which perfectly captures the insanity of Colonel Kurtz (played by Marlon Brando).

    Kurtz has fallen into madness and has gone completely ‘off the reservation’ as Captain Willard (played by Martin Sheen) puts it.

    Willard is the special forces assassin sent by his commanders to eliminate Kurtz whose atrocities in Cambodia are embarrassing the United States Government (I know, right).

    Anyway, the scene goes like this:

    Kurtz: “Did they say why, Willard, why they want to terminate my command?”
    Willard: “I was sent on a classified mission, sir.”
    Kurtz: “It’s no longer classified, is it? Did they tell you?”
    Willard: “They told me that you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound.”
    Kurtz: “Are my methods unsound?”
    Willard: “I don’t see any method at all, sir.”

    My version ends like this:

    Kurtz: “Are my arguments unsound?”
    Willard: “I don’t see any argument at all, sir.”

  189. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    If the question of Scotland ending the Union and returning to self-governance is for Scots. Then why does some self confessed English Unionist living in England feel the need to rock up on this site and spend so much of his time sticking his neb into business that has fuck all to do with him…

  190. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    An excellent question, Dan. I wouldn’t hold my breath for an answer, though. Not one that makes sense anyway.

  191. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s not about you Caveman!

    Narcicists can’t see past their own noses.

  192. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    “It’s the economy, Stupid!”

  193. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    Because this is a forum for discussion, and I’m interested in Scottish politics?

    Didn’t realise you were the site moderator, Dan.

  194. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh aye, CC playing the concerned Englishman worried about the economy card.
    But hud oan a moment, why would Scotland leaving the Union have a negative effect on the English economy. Us Scots are always being telt we are a drain because we are worthless workshy scroungers and have nothing of worth here. If that is indeed the case then losing the Scottish leech would surely allow England’s economy to flourish after it sheds the Scottish parasite.
    Hmm… But what’s this.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/spoiler-alert/comment-page-1/#comment-2771335

    And is successful international currency investor Jim Rogers talking pish here?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY2W_Okl9lE

  195. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Jock says: It doesn’t matter what case is made. You are asking Scots to start 10% behind with the English block vote.

    You’re once again wrong with the numbers (as well as the concept behind the numbers). But, as you admit, to you accuracy “doesn’t matter.”
    I suppose being consistently wrong on simple numbers has the virtue of consistency. But isn’t your purported cause being embarrassed by these obvious errors?

  196. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Alf Baird 4.21pm

    Scotland is a ‘non self-governing territory’, which is precisely why Scots want to reclaim our sovereignty and become self-governing again. A country does not have to be designated by the UN as such, this is simply our political reality, and as we know the UN has historically been misled on Scotland’s ‘equal’ status.

    You asserting Scotland has that status doesn’t make it so, any more than Tories asserting – and making parliament say – that Rwanda is safe makes it safe. If you want international recognition, you have to play by the rules.

    You won’t get the international community to accept a Scottish declaration of independence claiming colonial status unless the UN agrees with you. It just doesn’t: however hard you wish it were different, Scotland’s colonial status is like Tinkerbell: it’s not real mate!

    The reason Scotland used an irregular local government franchise for our national referendum is simply because the UK Government and its colonial administration decided to impose it. A more determined and savvy national independence organisation could have had UN inputs all along, if necessary, and could have adopted a proper national franchise.

    It’s NOT an irregular franchise though Alf, is it? As has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, the franchise used in the Scottish referendum was similar to those used in the vast majority of other self determination referendums since 1945. Indeed, many were actually MORE liberal than ours.

    The franchise used wasn’t imposed, it was negotiated with Westminster for the Edinburgh agreement. The movement as a whole accepted the franchise used everywhere else because it rejects your bigoted ethnic nationalism. It continues to do so. The UN has never shown any interest in taking up Scotland’s case, nor will it do so unless it’s patently obvious a majority of Scots are in favour.

    Adopting a non-standard franchise that no other people has attempted to use will be death for any referendum. We’ll be like the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus without the sun, and without a major power backing us up. It’s a political dead end.

  197. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Xaracen 4.13 pm

    Thank you, Andy, for the concession that the native born Scots actually did vote for independence in 2014.

    It’s not a concession. I know that the one Edinburgh University study which is constantly quoted (and for which I understand the figures and tables are not available) showed that 52% of native born Scots voted Yes.

    As discussed before however the nativists can’t prove what the vote would have been if they’d had their way and introduced a non-standard franchise. Many Yes supporting people may have reacted badly and voted No, or not voted for all you know. It wouldn’t have taken that many to overturn that 2%.

    You and other nativist don’t get to define Scots as only those born here. You can GRTF with that kind of bigoted nationalism. You don’t speak for the majority of Scots, whether born here or adopted.

  198. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Of course ignoring the English unionist block vote , might seem like the egalitarian thing to do. But it makes a mockery of calling it a Scottish vote. What we are essentially doing is making it a free for all.

    If I moved to Wales and the Welsh people had a vote on independence. I would not expect a vote just because I pay taxes in Wales. Because it’s not my country, and I am not Welsh. Why would I think the Welsh bigots for only letting actual Welsh people vote?

    This name calling and faux outrage from unionists is laughable. Why is it Scotlands job to persuade English people to vote for Scottish independence? Is this the price we pay for being so called Civic?

    One thing is sure with this franchise. Scotland will never be independent. The migration patterns won’t allow it.

    I couldn’t give two monkeys if people label me a bigot or whatever other blood and soil terms they throw around. I am realist.

    And I still wait the answer about EU citizens being denied a vote on Brexit. Many who had lived 30 years in the UK. Who decided that franchise was fair?

  199. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    How can you be Scottish if you were born in another country and didn’t grow up in Scotland? Sure I get the point that moving here when a child . All you have known is Scotland. That makes sense you feel a Scottish identity.

    But older people moving to Scotland doesn’t make them Scottish. That’s just silly games. Andy Murray moved to England at 18 or 19. Is he English?

    Terry Butcher lives in Stirling ,is he Scottish? You can’t just pick and choose your nationality like a football team. It’s who you are and your true identity.

    If I move to England I am Scottish,or Canada or Ireland. I carry the baggage of identity forever.

    You can’t just say you are Scottish because you decide. Well you can , but it’s patent nonsense and you are only kidding yourself. If I went to Ireland with my Scottish accent and said I was Irish. They would just laugh at me. Znd quite rightly.

  200. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock

    Andy good luck getting independence on that franchise. Have you seen the demographics.

    The demographics still show that around 80% of the population are native born Scots. If we can’t fashion a pro-independence majority from that and the section of “New Scots” who support independence, then there’s no hope for us anyway.

    In any case, as Rev Stu rightly said, another referendum is vanishingly unlikely anyway. Plebiscitary elections should be the movement’s aim now.

    It’s all very well throwing terms around like blood and soil. But you will be forever British if its the 2014 franchise.

    Not if we make a better case, convince more native Scots to grow a pair amd increase turnout. The turnout in both Quebec referendums was in the low 90’s %: ours was only 85%. Which part of that are you finding hard to grasp?

    You will never convince the majority of English people that Scotland is not part of their own country. Its a mental state.

    Having lived in England for half my life before returning home, I can assure you that most English people don’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about Scotland.

    They know little about it, and care even less. In fact a lot might be sad to see the end of the union, but if that’s what happened, most would shrug their shoulders and wish us well.

    Of course, there are others who are convinced Scotland is a burden and will actively encourage the end of the union. The British nationalist establishment will drop Scotland in a nano second if and when they think it’s more trouble than it’s worth maintining the union.

    That’d only happen in a future situation where Scottish nationalists were in a position of power like Irish nationalists were in the past and could stop little Englanders getting what they wanted, or where they made Westminster’s business so impossible they chucked us out. 🙂

  201. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @ 7:45 pm

    “It’s NOT an irregular franchise”

    As you know, Northern Ireland will have a totally different franchise than Scotland for its referendum and primarily based on “all persons who were born in Northern Ireland”; as well as negotiating a rather more privileged position than Scotland in terms of EU trade (which contravenes ToU articles). Scotland is aye sold short by our elites.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/619500728fa8f5037d67b678/The_Belfast_Agreement_An_Agreement_Reached_at_the_Multi-Party_Talks_on_Northern_Ireland.pdf

  202. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Alf Baird 9.10pm

    So what? Scotland =/= NI, which is in a very different situation due to the situation with Ireland.

    Not surprisingly you ignore the many, many other examples of countries and peoples which have achieved independence with the same or even more open franchises.

    Why, one might almost think you were deflecting Alf.

  203. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Except you ignore the uniqueness of Scotland. We are in a union with an elephant. Our small population is extremely sensitive to that other country’s massive exodus to our country. Unlike other new Scots. The English are very much against self determination. A majority will never accept Scotland as an independent nation.

    Other nations who used an open franchise did not have the colonial country as neighbours. And nor did they have so many migrants from the country they wished to break away from.

  204. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @ 9:50 pm

    “one might almost think you were deflecting”

    I doubt you would ever go on Irish blogs telling folks there that they are all “nativist” and “You can GRTF with that kind of bigoted nationalism” like you constantly do here with us Scots. What is it about us you dislike so much?

  205. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Incidentally the quebec referendum failed twice with an open franchise. 90% of new Quebecers voted no. The Canadian government made sure they got the vote,knowing they would vote no.

    Then what happened. The national party fell to pieces. Unionism restored and polls now sitting at below 30% for independence. And that’s due mainly to ongoing migration and new Quebecers growing larger.

    This is a warning to Scotland. We don’t have time. Time is the friend of the Union. Independence will eventually become impossible. It may already be too late.

  206. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    This from Wikipedia:

    According to Cas Mudde, a University of Georgia professor, nativism is a largely American notion that is rarely debated in Western Europe; the word originated with mid-nineteenth-century political parties in the United States, most notably the Know Nothing party

    Interesting, isn’t it? The origin of words.

  207. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    The truth is that we are correct. Scotland will never be allowed to get independence while pandering to the UK establishment. Part of their remit is to make sure non Scots get a vote.

    They know if the migrants from England don’t get a vote,then it’s game over. Those who use labels like natavism and blood and soul. Are actually using the unionists own rhetoric against themselves, and their fellow Scots. We are not your enemy.

    But you are happy to dismiss us as cranks and bigots. For the crime of simply pointing out, what is as clear as the nose on your face.

    I want independence first. We can be as civic as we want after independence.But if we never get it , we won’t ever change our society. You need independence to give new Scots real citizenship. At the moment no Scot has any real citizenship either.

  208. James
    Ignored
    says:

    Cut & paste Franchise Fanny back again keeping us Scotch proles right *sigh*….

    I must tell all those French voters that they are ‘blood and soil nationalists’ at the next French elections.

    What a w*nker. Scroll on past the trolls,folks.

  209. James
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland – uniquely – can’t have it’s own currency and must let every chas, Main and Andy from wherever they’ve popped up from last week have a vote on Scotland’s future…according to chas, Main and Andy.

    They Yoon trolls keep being corrected but just keep on cut’n’pasting to fool the unwary. Best ignored.

  210. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    “Narcicists can’t see past their own noses.”

    Ah I see, so making perhaps a dozen (at most) polite, on topic posts here makes me a “narcissist” according to you and “Dan”, despite the pair of you spamming your shite here monotonously by the cudgel every bloody day. Lol.

    Fair enough. You call me names, I get to do likewise: in my estimation you’re a pair of low-wattage, semi-literate, obsessive, embittered thickoes, get a life.

    Guess we’re even.

  211. Xaracen
    Ignored
    says:

    @Andy Ellis 11 May, 2024 at 8:09 pm;

    Stuff your bigoted nationalism accusations! Your allegation that a sovereignty-based franchise in Scotland would be based on bigotry is unwarranted, scurrilous, and vexatious.

    Our sovereignty is formally stated in Scotland’s own constitution, and there is no evidence that it was ever intended to apply more widely than just to Scotland’s own people. Given its antiquity, that’s a highly unlikely interpretation.

    A sovereignty-based franchise is a natural and legitimate outcome of the sovereignty of Scotland formally belonging to its people, a constitutional tradition that can be traced back many centuries, and ‘people’ in this context essentially must mean native-born Scots.

    That alone makes it clear that any formal plebiscite of the Scottish electorate can engage that sovereignty when it becomes relevant, and an independence referendum is unequivocally a major constitutional decision that clearly belongs to the sovereign owners of our country on both constitutional and democratic grounds.

    But that doesn’t have to mean that non-sovereigns can’t ever participate, but it does mean that it MUST be up to the sovereign Scots themselves to decide whether non-sovereigns may acquire the privilege of participating in a Scottish constitutional plebiscite, and how that acquisition can happen.

    In Scotland it’s not up to anyone else.

    As for the Edinburgh study, it says what it says, and nothing else is currently available to contradict it. Your pretence that bigotry would have played a significant part if the ‘nativists’ had their way, and that such a franchise should therefore be disallowed because of it, is based on nothing more than dishonest and wishful speculation by worried unionists.

    Scotland is the sovereign Scots’ country and no-one else’s, and they alone have the right to determine who else gets the privilege of taking part in any constitutional plebiscite regarding their own country. If you don’t like that, tough!

  212. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Xaracen @ 9:09 am

    “In Scotland it’s not up to anyone else”

    Unfortunately, as we see here, the ‘superior’ colonizer always thinks he knows best; the ‘colonial relationship is based on this cultural difference’ (Memmi) between colonizer and colonized. Which helps explain why colonialism is defined as ‘hateful racism’ (Cesaire).

  213. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Captain. I hate to do this,but I have an honours degree in psychology, an HNC in business studies, a diploma in marketing and various chartered insurance qualifications.

    You can disagree with me, but that hardly qualifies me as a thicko. But then again, of you can’t play the ball play the man.

    Should start calling you Lundstrum!

  214. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    Alf. Interestingly not one of them has answered my question about the Brexit franchise. Which of course denied all resident EU nationals a vote on something so fundamental to their lives.

    Was this blood and soil English nationalism?

  215. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    As a matter of record, anybody can go anywhere and claim to be of their destination. Their “right” to claim to be of their destination will be vociferously defended by a sizeable chunk of the people who genuinely are of the destination under discussion.

    The only wrinkle is that the people moving have to be of an ethnic minority. It doesn’t matter which one, any one will do.

    That’s why we had Yousaf as FM for a year.

    That’s why Scotland’s towns and cities would burn if we ever got an English FM, unless she too wasn’t white.

    None of the endless discussions about the franchise any longer make sense in a country so irretrievably warped by decades of unlimited migration. Doesn’t matter whether we’re talking about Scotland, England, the UK, or Londonistan itself.

    This is an end result brought about by the voters for progressivism, a cohort vastly over-represented on here. Your unthinking knee-jerk “be nice” support over decades destroyed the ethnic uniformity that is the only basis for an acceptable democracy. You lacked the guts to face down those who chanted “racism” at you, and opted for the quiet life, while hoping against all historical precedent that things would work out in the end.

    It’s now time for you to own your creation.

    Looking forwards, you can try to convince a majority of Scotland-resident voters of the merits of Indy, or you can try to force your done deal on an ever-increasing percentage of “non Scots” by denying them a say. All while taxing them to the hilt for the “privilege” of living here, doing necessary work here, and increasingly running the show.

    Good luck with that.

  216. Stoker
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis says on 11 May 2024 at 9:50 pm: “Not surprisingly you ignore the many, many other examples of countries and peoples which have achieved independence with the same or even more open franchises.”

    Trying to do my own homework on all of this so i need to ask you if you can give me a list of those countries or direct me to a useful source/link/whatever?

    I also want to try and research if any of those countries you speak of had almost half-a-million voters originally born in the country they were seeking independence from?

    Thanks in advance for any help given.

    And btw, folks, both Ellis and Rev have stated previously that there is a case for some form of criteria changes. What that entails is another story. I suppose the devil may be in the detail, eh! LOL!

  217. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 11.40am

    Alf. Interestingly not one of them has answered my question about the Brexit franchise. Which of course denied all resident EU nationals a vote on something so fundamental to their lives.

    Was this blood and soil English nationalism?

    OK, I’ll give it a go. It was almost certainly English nationalism in action, yes. The thing is since they (as in the government of the UK) got to set the franchise, then that’s the franchise that was used. Excluding EU nationals from the brexit referendum is functionally indistinguishable from excluding non-Scots born folk from any indyref frnachise. Still, I’m glad we’re agreed it represents blood and soil nationalism in action! Progress of a sort I suppose.

    The thing is, when Scotland is an independent country, it will have citizenship criteria of its own just like every other independent state. It will be able to exclude those without citizenship from voting in elections and constitutional votes just like every other independent country.

    The problem for the sundry nativists, blood and soil nationalists and some out and out racist bigots who sadly pollute BTL discourse here, is that they aren’t bright enough to discern the difference between the franchise used for self determination referendums, and that used for elections and constitutional votes in already independent states.

    It doesn’t matter how often this category error is pointed out to them, they return to it like a dog to its own vomit. When Scotland is independent, it will have citizens and can decide on its own franchise. Until that happens, the standard practice for self determination referendums is an open franchise, often more open than ours was in 2014. You can rage against the machine all you want, and insist that Scotland is special because *300 year old guff about treaties and sovereign Scots*, but the international community ain’t interested.

    They’ll treat Scotland just the same as everyone else, many of who managed to have the balls to vote for their own independence with a lot less going for them than we have, and with considerably bigger numbers of non-natives who had been deliberately planted by former imperial masters like all of the Russians living in the Baltic States after 1945.

  218. Saffron Robe
    Ignored
    says:

    Indigenous (or autochthonous) is the correct term. Native, as Northcode points out, is an applied term, used to paint indigenous people in a poor light, with negative connotations of primitivism, and therefore implying that the “natives” are somehow subordinate (to the coloniser). When actually, the opposite is true.

    As regards the franchise, an unrestricted or “civic” franchise obviously favours non-Scots (and those who want to keep Scotland subjugated). Similarly, the Democratic Party in the US is attempting to give illegal immigrants the vote in order to boost their voter base before the election since their policies are essentially un-American (or at least put the American people last). Unfortunately it is part of Agenda 2030 to destroy individual liberty and national sovereignty. Just as the Covid bioweapon and plandemic were designed to destroy bodily autonomy, so Western nations are being flooded with immigrants to weaken national identity (“confuse the nations”), thereby creating internal instability and reducing the threat of organised opposition. Both individual liberty and national sovereignty are impediments in the way of total global control of the population by the elites and their organisations.

  219. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Stoker 2.09pm

    A good resource is in the paper by Ivan Serrano and Jaume Loper of Girona University: “Who is Entitled to Vote”. It contains a number of tables at the end relating to the wording of the questions used, any threshold criteria and the franchises used.

    A number of the countries in the analysis probably had a greater proportion of non-native voters than Scotland had in 2014, or is likely to have in future, particularly those in the Baltic States which had been forcibly settled by people from other Soviet republics after the widespread ethnic cleansing and political repression both pre and post 1945.

    In previous threads I probably did a list, but can’t find it if I saved it somewhere.

    And you’re right, both Rev Stu and I in earlier discussions said there might be a case for some form of change in criteria to stop flagrant abuses, or a limited proof of residence criteria which “the movement” as a whole had signed up to. T

    he issue was that there was no real case for a blanket approach dis-enfranchising anyone not born here, or who hadn’t been here for an unusually long qualifying period, because that would have been both contrary to the civic nationalist project, and out of step with other analogous referendums, which risked alienating international support.

    That hasn’t changed. What has changed is that we’re most unlikely to get a referendum anytime soon, so we might as well concentrate on plebiscitary elections. We don’t control the franchise for Westminster elections. We do for Holyrood elections.

  220. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Jock 11.40am

    I missed that question. Yes, it was English nationalism. They control the franchise for UK elections and UK wide referendums. That’s how it works.

  221. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Xaracen 9.09am

    Pure wishful thinking on your part. It’s always the same with proponents of “cunning plans for indy” sadly. They insist there’s a silver bullet or short cut to independence that avoids the need to demonstrate the only feasible parliamentary route (demonstrating a clear majority in response to a clear question).

    In the end, it doesn’t matter whether the snake oil you’re trying to sell is Salvo, a Convention of the Estates, a Citizens Assembly, sovereigntist guff about our ancient constitution, UDI, a popular uprising, storming Holyrood…yadda, yadda, yadda.

    None of it hold any water. None of it is endorsed by serious academic or constitutional experts in law, politics, or history. None of it has any support from serious political figures or major political parties with a hope of making it happen. None of the plans for by-passing conventional political parties or political activism have shown any groundswell of support.

    A couple of hundred or even thousand folk waving banners forlornly at AUOB marches is hardly La Diada. If they were attracting those sorts of numbers, folk might take you seriously, but we just don’t because it’s a clown show.

    Do the work. Convince more people, both native born and “New Scots”. Increase turnout, and make better arguments in favour of independence, particularly given the post brexit unionist alternative. Nothing else will do.

  222. Stoker
    Ignored
    says:

    Ellis, you wrote: “…we’re most unlikely to get a referendum anytime soon, so we might as well concentrate on plebiscitary elections. We don’t control the franchise for Westminster elections. We do for Holyrood elections.”

    And that’s the very position i’m coming from. We shouldn’t be asking anyone for any form of permission to carve out our own destiny. I only asked you for that info because i want to see it for myself and educate myself. Plebiscite is *the* way. Can’t ever see myself supporting the idea of a referendum again. Unless one is, against all odds, plucked out the hat. Then i’ll just have to work with what we’ve got at the time. Meanwhile, Holyrood plebiscites are the way forward.

  223. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Saffron Robe 2.19pm

    Indigenous (or autochthonous) is the correct term. Native, as Northcode points out, is an applied term, used to paint indigenous people in a poor light, with negative connotations of primitivism, and therefore implying that the “natives” are somehow subordinate (to the coloniser). When actually, the opposite is true.

    No, the use of “nativism” is purposeful and legitimate. Some of those pushing for franchise restriction are out and out sub Sion nan Gaidheal racist. A few such have even (shamefully)posted on here. Many more are just useful idiots for the more extreme bigots, but it doesn’t make their regressive nationalism any more acceptable or palatable. Scotland isn’t in a colonial situation. It becomes no more true for constant repetition by clueless nativists.

    It hardly helps your case to decry what you (incorrectly) label the effect of racism, and then to immediately say that actually the coloniser should be subordinate to the indigenous Scot. That’s the very antithesis of civic nationalism.

    It is of course entirely unsurprising that a nativist shill is also a vaccine denying true believer in Agenda 2030. I’m only surprised the space lizards haven’t hoved in to view.

  224. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    Link to a previous comment back in 2021 that contains a further link re. Franchise criteria and “Permanent Residence” status.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/tidying-up/comment-page-2/#comment-2678661

  225. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Enallage (e-NALL-aj-ee) is a deliberate grammatical mistake.

    Here’s an example:

    Saffron Robe – you right.

    Joseph Conrad in his novel ‘Heart of Darkness’ knew that grammatically a verb was required to make a complete sentence, but the line “Mr. Kurtz is dead” would have been neither striking nor memorable.

    So instead Conrad used a rhetorical figure and wrote:

    Saffron Robe – you right. “Mistah Kurtz—he dead.”

    That enallage.

  226. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dan 3.33pm

    Interesting stuff: I can never get my head round searching back through BTL comments on here. Still…the debate doesn’t really seem to have moved on any. Whilst perusing further down that thread I noticed a comment I made then on 5 October, 2021 at 9:58 pm in response to the widespread “we’re being swamped” narrative.

    I don’t recall anyone really engaging with that, though I may have missed it I suppose. Dan certainly went on an on about permanent residence for long enough.

    OK, folks….let’s just talk numbers. No to-ing and fro-ing, it’s beyond obvious now in here that it’s just not worth trying to change entrenched positions in here on this particular issue. But somewhere out there the data exists about whether Clavie or Southernbystander’s take on this is right, doesn’t it?

    1) 4.28 million registered voters May 2021 elections.
    2) 4.28 million registered voters for 2014 indyref.
    3) 3.62 million votes cast in indyref1 (85% turnout).
    4) Scots born electors…? 83%?
    5) 157,400 foreign nationals registered to vote (Dec. 2020) – excludes Irish and Commonwealth citizens.
    6) 2011 Census (yeah..I know…the figures will be updated soon…)
    4.9 million people in Scotland born in the UK (93.4%).
    4.4 million 83.3% of all Scots born in Scotland.
    459,000 born in England
    369,000 people born outside UK.
    7) How de we know the net figure over a number of years of those who leave, against those who enter, and how do we know what way any net gain will vote?

    So…imminent swamping?
    Swamping over [X] years?
    Manageable numbers that should be easily outweighed by any reasonable campaign/decent pro indy campaign?

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/tidying-up/comment-page-2/#comment-2678736

  227. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “…the coloniser should be subordinate to the indigenous Scot.”

    At last, some rational thought from a unionist.

    In rhetoric what I just did there is called Fallacy of Accent.

    Fallacy of Accent is where you take something someone has said or written out of its context and employ it in your own argument to counter theirs.

    Keep an eyey out for it – it’s a devious, but very useful, rhetorical trick.

  228. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    …alternatively, you could keep an eye out for fallacy of accent tricks if you don’t know what an eyey is.

  229. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    I can never get my head round searching back through BTL comments on here.

    Mumbles something quietly to oneself about the difficulties of educating pork… and further muses that this really takes the edge off getting quality answers returned from the #AskAndy hashtag…

    But what the heck, whilst you’re here. #AskAndy – Can you define “Permanent Residence” for me? Both the “international best practice” and your own definition versions will suffice.

  230. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh aye, retro post contains “6) 2011 Census (yeah..I know…the figures will be updated soon…)

    #AskAndy – Can you please define soon? LOLZ

    Mia’s previous post on demographic changes.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-last-ten-seconds-of-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2673159

  231. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    “You can disagree with me, but that hardly qualifies me as a thicko. But then again, of you can’t play the ball play the man.”

    “Can’t play the ball play the man”… it was *you* who played the man, not me, you echo-headed numbskull, by calling me a narcissist with no just cause (I doubt you even know what it even means) in response to perfectly polite posts on my part. I mean, DUH. It’s literally all up there in black and white and was only yesterday… and here’s you projecting and trying to claim the moral high ground like a 14 year old… one more revolution round the goldfish bowl, right chief?

    (Also, trying to initiate some dumbass pissing contest isn’t going to work for you either mate, trust me on that score. What’s next, your 25 metres swimming certificate? Bore off).

    “Should start calling you Lundstrum!”

    I’ll keep calling you Thicko.

  232. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dan

    I’m hardly to be held responsible for the vagaries of Wings BTL search function. I don’t generally care about long past posts. As already noted, the debate hasn’t appreciable moved on in the meantime. Moon howlers still howl at the moon. go figure.

    Permanent resident means people who reside here permanently I suspect. Same goes for all the other places where they had self determination referendums.

    I doubt there is an “international best practice definition”, whatever that might be. Each country or state no doubt has it’s own criteria, but it’s pure evasion thinking there’s some magic get out for the nativists hiding in the definition of the term. All seems a bit “eats shoots and leaves” stuff. Still, logic never has been the strong suit of blood and soil addled nativists now, has it? 🙂

    Despite all the deflection about the relatively paltry number of students with 2 votes and second home owners that all the nativists assured us we were flooded with, I never saw any actual evidence about numbers.

    Funny that.*

    *Totally to be expected.

  233. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dan 4.50pm

    You can’t expect any reasonable person to read one of Mia’s logorrheas surely? Any chance of a TL/DR version? My eyes glaze over as soon as I see her name and the ignored cross next to it sorry. If it’s anything like her usual output it will take 10 words to say what one would have sufficed for and yet still mean SFA.

    As for the output of the census, I have no insider knowledge. I suspect at the time folk expected the figures would be produced by now, but that’s what having an SNP government does for you I guess: they can’t even run a census.

    You might want to check with the authorities.

  234. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode

    Are you the same Northcode who exhorted us to become more like the Picts?

    The Picts we Scots colonialists drove to extinction?

    Give us a fancy word for that.

  235. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @ 4:13 pm

    “Manageable numbers”

    One of the very few academic analyses of Scotland’s demographics in the context of independence was my own work; chapter 5 (‘Demographics’) in ‘Doun-Hauden’ (2020). A summary of that chapter was published in 2021 on Yours for Scotland and Grouse Beater, as one of the series of nine ‘Socio-Political Determinants of Scottish Independence’ from the theoretical framework I developed based on my post-2014 referendum research.
    https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/10/26/determinants-of-independence-demographics-2/

    Given our increasingly obvious colonial reality, analysis of Scotland’s demographics must begin from the 18th century when Scotland’s population ‘management’ first came under the imperial corporate-military control of the British government and parliament. It is from that point onward until today that an extensive array of ‘colonial procedures’ were put into operation which has resulted in the decimated and culturally ‘manufactured’ population we have today.

    Essentially this means that your reliance only on recent census data (albeit where you fail to highlight ongoing long-term displacement of Scots is now more rapid) can only ever provide a limited overview of Scotland’s present population make-up and resulting cultural emotions.

  236. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    Professor Baird

    If you’re going to bring Scotland’s ‘manufactured’ population into play, you may as well throw in the towel now.

    Every self-identifying indigenous Sovereign Scot may be descended from a ‘manufactured’ Scot dating back to the 18th century ‘managed’ population.

    How can we ever know?

  237. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    There are many splendidly ‘fancy’ words in the English language. And many more in Scots.

    But the common term bullshit will suffice in this instance – the comment deserves no fancier word than that.

    For clarity this from wikipedia:

    In philosophy and psychology of cognition, the term “bullshit” is sometimes used to specifically refer to statements produced without particular concern for truth, clarity, or meaning…

    Besides – the Scots are the Picts…and vice versa.

  238. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Alf Baird 7.09pm

    As you know, I don’t accept your asserted “colonial reality”. I realise some folk have, but I wonder how general that would be amongst Scots generally and the wider independence movement? I don’t think it helps to talk about a “manufactured population” or harking back to the 18th century.

    What matters is the present day, and how a broadly based, civic nationalist movement can move things forward towards the attainment of an independent state.

    I refuse to believe that will be based on a regressive, backward looking ethnic nationalism. If it is, I want no part of it. The problem for those who do, is whether there are enough people horrified at the prospect to derail their vision of how to proceed.

    By the way current census data is the only game in town: we don’t know the current figures, and we have no real way of gauging the unknowables of what you call long term displacement. It’s pretty hard to demonstrate with any accuracy what the nett figures will be at a point where a vote occurs.

  239. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    There’s probably an XTC gag in this but yon Census is working overtime…
    So in the meantime here’s some anecdotal evidence…
    Last year out of 200 newborn children in my area only 20 bairns were born to both Scottish parents. That sounds totes like what happens in normal countries.
    Plus there was this.

    https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2023/03/26/healthy-demographics/

  240. James
    Ignored
    says:

    Trouble is, #AskAndy won’t even entertain a debate on the peculiar franchise used last time; it’s his [unionist] way or no way, sound familiar?

    I must tell my “regressive, backward looking ethnic national” French friends what awful nativists they have always been for not letting every Tom, Dick and Andy come-lately a vote on such things…

    “Visit Scotland and vote on our future”

  241. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @ 8:58 pm

    “What matters is the present day, and how a broadly based, civic nationalist movement can move things forward towards the attainment of an independent state.”

    I don’t suppose you have any examples of this new phenomenon(?) considering that ‘civic nationalism’ is such a recent political slogan and about as wooly as gender ideology – i.e. telling people they can have another identity that is not their own. I can’t see any other people anywhere that have been liberated by this ‘model’, which the UN and others might call ‘external interference’.

    You are partly right about present day influences. Whilst Scotland’s people have been subject to ‘colonial procedures’ for over three centuries, recent trends suggest some intensification of the process; this is to be expected ‘whenever colonialism is imperiled’ (Fanon), and according to National Records of Scotland:

    “Migration has been adding to Scotland’s population for the last 20 years”.

  242. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dan 11.30pm

    Trouble is Dan, that while you’re entitled to your own opinion, you’re not entitled to your own class of facts. the fact you don’t like the franchise used in 2014 doesn’t mean your view is accepted by the movement more broadly.

    More importantly however the franchise used was in no way peculiar: it was the same as that used in virtually all other self determination referendums, apart from those that were explicitly in a situation of de-colonisation, which doesn’t apply to Scotland however Alf Baird and his supporters claim otherwise.

    The bigger question is why you and other nativists continue to insist that black is white. The franchise used in some other referendums was actually MORE open than ours. There is no case for franchise restriction, and no appreciable support for it in the movement.

    You’ll be trotting out the old canard next that no other country allows this, conveniently forgetting of course that franchises for self determination referendums and for voting in elections are two quite different things.

    It’s like trying to explain the difference between small and far away to Father Dougal, except he wasn’t a regressive nativist bigot of course.

  243. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    #AskAndy – Have you been to specsavers recently? It’s just that it was James and not I that posted at 11.30pm.

  244. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Dan 8.12am

    Due apologies, it was directed at James’ comment not yours. That’s the trouble with small screens on phones!

  245. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Alf Baird 7.28am

    It’s possible to argue that many of the instances of recent self determination involved broadly based movements of a civic nationalist character. Those in the Baltic republics spring to mind, and (to their credit) they were more inclusive than many thought they would be with respect to including non-natives who had been purposefully settled there since 1945.

    Indeed it’s instructive that their approach is considerably more liberal than that being advocated by some of the nativists in here.

    I’m not sure when “civic nationalism” became a thing exactly. Like so many such concepts, it ay be difficult to define, but we all know it when we see it, and it’s not hard to discern from the kind of non-civic nationalism it stands in opposition to. If you find that too wooly or problematic, I’m not sure what to tell you.

    If your nationalism consists of telling people that they can’t have a Scottish identity unless they are born here, or that they can’t be considered Scottish enough until they’ve lived here for “X” years before they even get a say in their joint future as residents here, then I want no part of it.

    I don’t really care if you and other nativists think that makes me a unionist. I think that kind of nationalism is regressive, particularist and not a safe basis on which to build a new, independent Scottish state.

    You keep trying to use the UN as a shield with absolutely zero evidence that they accept your assertions about the Scottish situation. However hard you try to justify our colonial (or even quasi-colonial) status, it just isn’t accepted outside a small coterie of cranks within the Scottish independence movement.

    The effects of internal migration are marginal. There are two main paths to ensuring a large enough majority for independence which the international community will find convincing. The positive path involves increasing the number of native born Scots who support it, increasing turnout and registration of voters and making a better case.

    The negative involves highlighting the bin fire that is the unionist project, the impact of brexit, the economic costs of the British nationalist project and the fact that things have changed since 2014 and the risks of staying in the union now outweigh the risks of independence.

    Nobody really know the nett numbers of incomers versus emigrants, or what their voting preferences will be at the point of a vote. The way to ensure they don’t hold the balance is to encourage more Scots to grow a pair, not to jerry-mander the franchise or to try and dream up ever more fanciful unicorn and rainbow non-parliamentary routes to independence.

  246. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Is franchise fanny still banging on about what he thinks the YES movement thinks lol

    Let’s take a look at how opinions can change..

    Remember when a plebiscite was howled at by eejits like you?

    Remember when abstention ING from Westminster was a crazy idea?

    Remember when we thought “the international community” was worth a shit?

    Opinions change, ya roaster. Things evolve.

    Scots Sovereignty & it’s treaty of Union is fuck all to do with outsiders, especially those from a plundering hostile nation.

    Colonisation is coming to an end. Plunder & rigged elections with it &

    The UK English government doesn’t permit ppl to just rock up at election time. Are they bigoted nativists? If they held a ref on independence do you think Scots could just rock into town & get a vote?

    The franchise would be a wider topic of conversation when a convention is assembled – not some backward meeting in a local community centre with spoilers banging on about how outsiders votes are more fucking important than the actual Scots who have to live with the result.

    So get the fuck over yerself at calling ppl bigoted nativists. You’ll have fuck all say on the matter when it comes to it.

    If Scots seek another ref then the details of that ref should be put to the actual Scots – not civil servants & politicians.

  247. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “then I want no part of it.”

    Good!

    The Scots are sovereign. Outsiders are not.

    You don’t believe we’re sovereign. You also don’t believe Scots constitution. Therefore you demonstrate you ARE a unionist.

  248. Xaracen
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis said;

    “I don’t think it helps to talk about a “manufactured population” or harking back to the 18th century.

    What matters is the present day, and how a broadly based, civic nationalist movement can move things forward towards the attainment of an independent state.”

    More dishonest framing, Andy! You just can’t help yourself, can you?

    Harking back to the 18th century certainly isn’t going to help the Union’s argument, is it, Andy? Can’t have that, now can we?

    It was the 18th century that brought us the Union, when Scotland allegedly* chose to be governed by England’s establishment, by allegedly* agreeing to have Scotland’s MPs defer their majority decisions to those of the MPs of a foreign kingdom. Yes, Andy, a foreign kingdom!

    It was the 18th century’s political plotting by one kingdom that hijacked the governance of a foreign kingdom, and which pretends even now that everything was legit, kosher and above board, such that Scotland has no legitimate grounds for complaint about how England runs Scotland and the Union, because it’s allegedly* a democracy after all, and that’s all good and perfectly fair, coz votes and all. The Union simply couldn’t be run in any other way! (At least not if England can do anything about it).

    Our ‘broadly based, civic nationalist movement’ is hamstrung at every turn by unwarranted, unjustified, pseudo-legal, faux-constitutional, covert and overt undemocratic gerrymandering of every process, every discussion, every debate, every vote, and all done in the name of Westminster’s alleged* ‘unlimited sovereignty’, a sovereignty that was manufactured in the 18th century, and whose authenticity of authority over Scotland is itself entirely bogus, and it still claims and exerts that fauxthority today.

    No wonder you’d rather we didn’t look into that black and rotten past!

    Our ‘broadly based, civic nationalist movement’ would do very well to examine and expose the true history and nature of the Union, because the revelations of all the outrageous details of the monumental scam that is England’s Union would see it ended by lunchtime.

    * Means it’s a lie.

  249. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    If the Scots are the Picts, posts exhorting us to become more like the Picts would logically be superfluous.

    Alert readers will note how I destroyed the argument of the earlier poster without having to resort to emotive language.

    Could that be a Pictish thing? Whatever, I bet there’s a fancy word for it.

  250. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @ 8:46 am

    “It’s possible to argue that many of the instances of recent self determination involved broadly based movements of a civic nationalist character. Those in the Baltic republics spring to mind”

    Please try to do some research. You are clutching at straws trying to compare the independence of the Baltic states from the Soviet Union or anywhere else for that matter with what you think you mean by ‘civic nationalism’.

    As Fanon tells us, national consciousness/culture is the key to liberation of oppressed peoples and their culture ‘but this is not nationalism’, and is therefore not ‘civic nationalism’ either, however poorly defined or understood is the latter.

    The colonisation of the Batic states sounds and looks very familiar to the Scottish ‘condition’ in a number of respects, for example:

    “While forced to be part of the Soviet Union, Estonian culture was besieged. Moscow wouldn’t allow locals to wave their flag or sing their patriotic songs. Russians were moved in and Estonians were shipped out in an attempt to “Russify” the country.”

    The Estonians taught us how to become independent with an elected majority, something the SNP does not have the courage to do even after being handed 6 electoral majorities:

    “In February 1990, the first free parliamentary elections took place in all three Baltic states, and pro-independence candidates won majorities. In 1991, on the eve of an expected violent crackdown of the Singing Revolution, the makeshift Estonian Parliament declared independence.”

  251. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    Geri

    It appears to be beyond your comprehension that it’s perfectly possible for a Sovereign Scot to be pro-Union, or agnostic about Indy.

    It’s a blind spot that seems to afflict many. Perhaps it’s what is at the root of the failure of the Indy movement to persuade a clear Scottish majority of the merits of Independence.

    If you truly believe, as your posts regularly suggest, that those sitting on the Indy fence aren’t worth bothering with, then you’ll continue to make the same zero progress you have made over the past decade.

  252. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    & as for the UN

    There was an excellent lawyer speaking on behalf of the Arab league to the ICJ that went viral. I suggest you listen to him cause #AskAndy doesn’t even know what a genocide is far less the definition of colonialism or the international community, it’s laws or what it thinks of the treaty on the United Kingdom (s).

    How very Yoon eh? What you think & what is actual international law on decolonisation & the right to self determination differ widely along with a nations right to statehood.

    We need no permission from Westminster, the international community or anyone else. Scotland is signatory to a union. It wishes to end that union & is perfectly entitled to do so.

  253. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    Xaracen

    If you believe your revelations would end the Union by lunchtime, then reveal them.

    I am confident Rev Stu will provide you with all the apace you need on here, and once published here, there can be few people in the entire western world and beyond who will be unable to access, read, download, re-post, print, distribute and discuss them.

    I’m betting though, that all your revelations are already in the public domain, and have been for years.

    That leads to the very awkward question: Why is it that the majority of Scots don’t care?

    Ten years after the Indy Ref, and with the ongoing collapse of the SNP plain for all to see, that’s the question that most interests me.

  254. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Andy Ellis @ 8:46 am

    “many of the instances of recent self determination involved broadly based movements of a civic nationalist character.”

    The independence of the Baltic states or any other country depended on the national culture of their people who comprise the colonized oppressed national/cultural/linguistic ethnic group, they tell us so themselves:

    “This is the story of how culture saved a nation”

    https://singingrevolution.com/

  255. Xaracen
    Ignored
    says:

    Hatey McHateface said;

    “None of the endless discussions about the franchise any longer make sense in a country so irretrievably warped by decades of unlimited migration. Doesn’t matter whether we’re talking about Scotland, England, the UK, or Londonistan itself.”

    Don’t worry, Hatey, I haven’t forgotten your earlier comment above;

    Blethers, Hatey! Of course it matters which country we are talking about, because the sovereignties and constitutions differ between the two kingdoms of the Union. Those sovereignties and constitutions need to be properly respected, but Scotland is an anomaly precisely because its so-called equal partner in the Union absolutely refuses to respect Scotland’s sovereignty and constitution; England’s establishment thinks their own sovereignty and constitution are entitled to overrule Scotland’s. But there has never been any formal agreement between the two kingdoms for this position, so it is abusive bollocks.

    There is no reason whatsoever that we should put up with that constant abuse and disrespect, and we should be getting angrier with every day that it continues. Scotland’s sovereign-based franchise as I’ve described it above is an essential tool to combat that disrespect for the constitutional right of Scotland’s sovereign electorate to make constitutional decisions for themselves in their own damn country without others who have no such right interfering with it.

    “Looking forwards, you can try to convince a majority of Scotland-resident voters of the merits of Indy, or you can try to force your done deal on an ever-increasing percentage of “non Scots” by denying them a say. All while taxing them to the hilt for the “privilege” of living here, doing necessary work here, and increasingly running the show.

    Good luck with that.”

    Scotland’s ‘ever-increasing percentage of non-Scots’ have no inherent right to make sovereign-level decisions for Scotland over the heads of the actual Scots who are the formal owners of Scotland under their own constitution, and those “non Scots” should have no expectation that they would have such rights by default. If they get upset by their exclusion on such matters, tough! They cannot claim to have been ‘disenfranchised’ because they were never ‘enfranchised’ for those matters in the first place!

    Everything else in your comment is dishonest nonsensical framing.

    As for; “That leads to the very awkward question: Why is it that the majority of Scots don’t care?”

    What makes you think they don’t care? Most are unaware of those revelations. But once a campaign gets itself organised and those revelations start to appear on billboards, posters and adverts, and get debated on TV, they’ll soon get the message.

    Currently it’s really only the readers of blogs like this one who have been exposed to these matters, and the ones who do now understand the truth certainly do care!

  256. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    Professor Alf Baird

    Invoking Eastern European nation’s efforts to free themselves from oppression and colonisation goes down like the proverbial lead balloon on here.

    The consensus was that their languages, cultures, ethnic distinctions, etc deserved destruction and as for their own claims to the contrary, they were lying through their teeth. I see no evidence that things have improved.

    I suggest you try a different approach.

  257. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “Self determination does not depend on others agreeing to it’s realisation It is a right. It’s colonialism to withhold a nations right to independence & stating freedom will only be realised if they coloniser deems it fit to do so”

    There. International law.

    No hoops to jump.
    No 70% pish.
    No Plebiscite.
    No franchise fannies.
    No international community.
    No Colonial permission.
    No section 30.
    No “now is not the time”
    No Westminster vote.
    No Royal interference.
    No fannies vote from a plundering nation jettisoned in to spoil democratic votes.
    Scotland is in a Union. Unions end when a Sovereign Nation decides to terminate it. Scotland is a sovereign nation.

    So #AskAndy – update yer Yoon software. The UN knows perfectly well what self determination means. What a sovereign state consists of & what the international community will & won’t accept.
    Not even a referendum required.

    Scotland is forbidden a referendum.
    Scotland is forbidden from exercising democracy & it’s mandates.
    Scotland is forbidden from holding any position in high office. UN/EU/Treasury etc..
    Scotland is forbidden from control over her own resources, wealth, immigration, ports, fck – we can’t even conduct advisory refs on what Scotland actually thinks.
    Scotland is treated as a 2nd class citizen in its own country.

    That’s Colonialism. Scotland never extinguished itself as a nation or her Sovereignty & the English UK government has ZERO authority here. ZERO.

    The 18th century is where this treaty began. How very Yoon of you to dismiss an internationally recognised treaty as unimportant. It’s just what a coloniser would say along with inviting outsiders to come fck up our vote to terminate it.

  258. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    @Xaracen

    Thanks for your reply.

    The English population is being replaced at a faster pro-rata rate than the population of Scotland (thankfully, but that’s purely an accidental phenomenon that could change).

    The “New English” if they ever think about these things at all, will be less likely to respect Scotland’s sovereignty than the Old English. Why? Because any argument that indigenes have rights over and above those granted to immigrants will damage their position. They will want to re-make England and indeed the UK in their image when they reach critical mass. Indeed, 2023/24 showed clear signs of that already happening (to considerable approval on here).

    My point? Your belief that Scotland’s historic sovereignty can be used to solve the franchise problem becomes more untenable every day.

    The route to Indy lies in persuading a majority of the people in Scotland to want Indy.

  259. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Hatey McHateface @ 10:33 am

    “Invoking Eastern European nation’s efforts to free themselves from oppression and colonisation goes down like the proverbial lead balloon on here.”

    You will have to take this up with Andy Ellis who raised it in his failed attempt to identify any concrete examples in which the recent notion of ‘civic nationalism’ had actually brought about the national liberation of a colonised people.

    In Estonia’s case the indigenous people were naturally opposed to Russia’s longstanding efforts to destroy their culture and language, together with the organised movement of Russians into their country and removal of their ain fowk (i.e. ‘Russification’).

    Somewhat ironic that even the BBC kens this, yet cannot see the same process on its own doorstep:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z6rjy9q/revision/7

  260. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    How fortunate us Scots who support Scottish independence are to have a haunfu o’ unionists on here help us make our case.

    Every malformed premise and twisted fact bent out of shape to form what is imagined in ignorance an argument, a faux argument no more than a demand for Scotland and the Scots to be assimilated by an alien culture, work in favour of Scottish independence.

    Every word scrawled in delusional displays of ‘superiority’ and every witless insult aimed at Scots strengthens the desire for the liberation of Scotland from a mankit union – and it hardly needed strengthening in the first place.

    Every atom of animosity and mote of mean-spirited sentiment carelessly tossed at the Scots shines a light on the undeniable truth of Scotland’s subjugation and the soundness of her people’s argument for independence.

    I’m minded of this;

    “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways… As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

    Isaiah 55:8-9

    God works in mysterious ways.

  261. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “The route to Indy lies in persuading a majority of the people in Scotland to want Indy.”

    No it doesn’t. Under international law the Act of Union can be terminated at any time by either side as BOTH are sovereign nations. It’s a treaty. Treaties end. Even Davis told you that during Brexshit negotiations. There isn’t a treaty in the whole wide world where a sovereign nation can only leave when tne other side says so. (Or when the other side rigs the vote)

    If yoons want a vote. Terminate the treaty of Union & actually have one for rejoining along with all the details on what the actual benefits would be on rejoining.

    Scots were never asked to join. They were never asked about the monarchy either. Time to fix that & stop acting like a serf. England & it’s King is OUR equal. Not our masters.

    Stop thinking like a Yoon.

  262. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “What happened to the “Hate” badges that were meant to be sent out?”

    They’re coming. These things take a while.

  263. Hatey McHateface
    Ignored
    says:

    God does indeed work in mysterious ways.

    It’s all interconnected, Northcode.

    You shouldn’t really come on here quoting the Old Testament to people, many of whom want extermination for those to whom the OT is their holy book.

    “How fortunate us Scots who support Scottish independence are to have a haunfu o’ unionists on here help us make our case”

    Yeah, well, how unfortunate us Scots who have pride, honour and a genuine desire for a better future, to have the mankit abortion that is the SNP/Green ScotGov almost daily reinforcing our country’s image as the laughing stock of the world.

    An Independence movement lacking even one decent, competent, honest, charismatic individual from among the indigenous population to lead it? Surely never before in history has such an aberration existed.

    I’ll tell you what would strengthen you, Northcode. The wisdom to fess up and say “We screwed it up big time”, the honesty to own the slomo car crash that is the SNP, and the humility to say “We’ll listen and learn so that next time it’s better”.

    But you continue with your well-worn refrain: It’s the Yoons doing it to us.

    The next decade is going to really drag.

  264. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Wisdom, honesty and humility. The noble characteristics regularly displayed by Unionists who post comments on here.

  265. Xaracen
    Ignored
    says:

    Hatey McHateface said;

    “My point? Your belief that Scotland’s historic sovereignty can be used to solve the franchise problem becomes more untenable every day.”

    Your point is meaningless; that the franchise needs to recognise and respect the formal sovereignty of Scotland’s indigenes is precisely because the Kingdom of Scotland constitutionally, and therefore legally, actually belongs to them and not to anyone else! Not to Scotland’s non-indigenes, not to England’s people indigenes or otherwise, not to England’s MPs, not to the Union parliament, not to Scotland’s monarch, not to England’s monarch, and not to the Union’s monarch!

    Which bit of ‘the Kingdom of Scotland belongs to Scotland’s sovereign indigenes’ are you having trouble with, Hatey?

  266. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “You shouldn’t really come on here quoting the Old Testament to people, many of whom want extermination for those to whom the OT is their holy book.”

    Zionism doesn’t have a holy book. It is a racist, colonial outfit driven by greed & control. Know the difference. It’ll help with yer fake ramblings.
    What book do fascists & fundamental Christians have? We’d love to know.

    Maybe someone needs to come to your house & eject you at gunpoint & announce they live there now & they’ll arm themselves to the teeth in their “right to defend themself” against you, the aggressor.

    As for Scots indy. It doesn’t need anyone to agree or set targets & criteria for it to reach to appease the other side because international laws recognises that’s manipulated bullshit. Holyrood is a colonial outpost. It would always fail because it’s not in the colonisers interests for it to succeed. It’s job is to hush the “natives” into thinking it has democracy & a say in things but darn… always just out of reach as spanners always throw into the works to snatch it out of reach.

    You clearly have no clue on Colonialism & how it works or any clue on Zionism. Colonisers have no claims there. Point us to chapter & verse.

  267. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Xaracen, please inform the world who (in your twisted mind) qualifies as “Scotland’s indigenes” and who doesn’t.
    And for that matter, point out the specific law that requires this distinction among Scots.
    For example, the chairperson of the Alba Party was born in London. Is she (in your mind) an “Scottish indigene” and therefore (in your mind) entitled to vote?

  268. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Xaracen

    I found this definition of ‘Indigene’ on the web:

    An indigene refers to a person, animal, or plant that is native to a specific region. It signifies a connection to the earliest known inhabitants of a place, especially in areas that were later colonized by a dominant group. The term emphasizes the deep-rooted relationship between a living entity and its original environment

    Seems plain enough to me.

  269. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Alf Baird 11.19am

    In Estonia’s case the indigenous people were naturally opposed to Russia’s longstanding efforts to destroy their culture and language, together with the organised movement of Russians into their country and removal of their ain fowk (i.e. ‘Russification’).

    Odd then Alf that the Estonian self determination referendum in March 1991 enfranchised ALL permanent residents of Estonia. Of around 1.2 million eligible voters, only 60% were ethnically Estonian, 30% ethnic Russkis and 10% from elsewhere in the USSR.

    Total turnout in that referendum was 82.9% of 1.14M registered voters. 78.4% voted in favour and 21.6% against, so significant numbers of Russkis voted in favour.

    So the Estonians – despite a much less favourable political, social and security environment than we are likely to face (indeed they faced the clear and present danger of invasion) consented to a franchise that most of the xenophobes in here would reject. That’s civic nationalism in action Alf.

  270. Andy Ellis
    Ignored
    says:

    @Alf Baird 11.19am

    In Estonia’s case the indigenous people were naturally opposed to Russia’s longstanding efforts to destroy their culture and language, together with the organised movement of Russians into their country and removal of their ain fowk (i.e. ‘Russification’).

    Odd then Alf that the Estonian self determination referendum in March 1991 enfranchised ALL permanent residents of Estonia. Of around 1.2 million eligible voters, only 60% were ethnically Estonian, 30% ethnic R****** and 10% from elsewhere in the former ruling empire.

    Total turnout in that referendum was 82.9% of 1.14M registered voters. 78.4% voted in favour and 21.6% against, so significant numbers of R******* voted in favour.

    So the Estonians – despite a much less favourable political, social and security environment than we are likely to face (indeed they faced the clear and present danger of invasion) consented to a franchise that most of the xenophobes in here would reject. That’s civic nationalism in action Alf.

  271. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    I see an ass abroad is back..

    “Xaracen, please inform the world who (in your twisted mind) qualifies as “Scotland’s indigenes” and who doesn’t.”

    Have you asked the English government how they managed it with Brexshit? I’ll save you the bother. The electoral register is there for a reason.

    “And for that matter, point out the specific law that requires this distinction among Scots.”

    Scotland Act. Scotland is in charge of its own elections & with it the powers over the franchise. Oh deary.

    Scotland is a sovereign nation & can decide who she likes has a vote. Not a foreign country.

  272. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode’s and Geri’s comments are always good for a laugh.

    Take Northcode’s latest attempt to define indigene: “An indigene … signifies a connection to the earliest known inhabitants of a place.”
    Northcode, Please tell the world what constitutes a “connection” and who were the “earliest known inhabitants” of Scotland. The Picts? Neanderthal man? The Irish who migrated to Alba and started to call themselves Scots?
    In the real world, real Scots are descended from many different lineages. Bu that’s the real world.
    As to Geri, she just lies about the Scotland Act. Plus she can’t (or chooses not to) read what she comments on. There is nothing in the Scotland Act that REQUIRES such distinctions.
    Oh deary.

  273. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “There is nothing in the Scotland Act that REQUIRES such distinctions.”

    Parliament discusses what distinctions there will be, ya fud.

    An example of Scotland exercising its powers over the franchise is the recent inclusion of refugees being given voting rights in national & local elections. This was debated in parliament & passed & is now active. See how easy it is?

    Oh my giddy aunt – how will Scotland know who is a refugee or not?!? It’s all so complicated & unworkable eh? *Yawn*

  274. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “Northcode’s and Geri’s comments are always good for a laugh”

    I appreciate, as I am sure does Geri , this compliment most kindly and graciously given us. Humour, it is said, is a sign of great intelligence. And the recognition of my own and Geri’s superior intellects is most welcome, and indeed extremely gratifying. Although I must confess some mild surprise as to its source .

    It seems there’s at least one unionist on here who can post at least one comment without resorting to insult. Well done.

  275. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Notice how Northcode still evades answering my simple question.
    For his (her?) benefit, I’ll repeat it:
    The chairperson of the Alba Party was born in London. Under YOUR “indigene” formulation, would she be eligible to vote in a Scottish election? Are you going to disqualify the Alba Party head from voting?

    Yes or No?

    Yes or No?

    Yes or No?

  276. Saffron Robe
    Ignored
    says:

    “And your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt; you shall raise up the foundations of many generations; you shall be called the repairer of the breach, the restorer of streets to dwell in.”

    Isaiah 58:12

  277. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Northode can answer & so will I.

    Yes she would.

    She’s lived in Scotland for over 50 years +.

    Not just rocked up buying a second home, going to university, becoming a landlady for a string of cheap properties, migrated for military, sponging off the “free” socialist Scottish NHS or just here for an indy referendum.

    I hope that answers yer question.

    Residency is the key. 20 yrs plus. No holiday homes. No landlords. No retirees. No migrant students. No migrant fruit pickers.

    In other words. No part timers or their part time offspring who think Scotland is their personal possession & playground. They have their own country & their own constitution & the freedom to fck off back there when it comes up their humph to do so. Scotlands constitution is nothing to do with them as Scotland isn’t or hasn’t been their home. Comprendez?

    Indigenous Scots take precedent over incomers. If, like last time, Scots vote YES to independence but rUK vote No. It’s the Scots vote that has full authority. Not outsiders.

  278. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    I lifted a definition for the term ‘indigene’ from the internet and as such the definition is not mine – although it seems to me to be a perfectly rational and workable definition.

    As for the chairperson of the Alba Party question – the answer is of course, yes.

    See Geri’s more comprehensive answer for details. Details I agree with.

  279. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Saffron Robe

    Sometimes that Old Testament stuff just delivers exactly what’s needed in an argument. 58:12 is a good one.

  280. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “The chairperson of the Alba Party was born in London. Under YOUR “indigene” formulation, would she be eligible to vote in a Scottish election? Are you going to disqualify the Alba Party head from voting?

    Yes or No?”

    I’ve just noticed how poorly formed this comment is.

    Is it two opposing questions to one request for an answer, or is it three requests for an answer to two opposing questions? Yes or no?

    Whatever, here’s my answer re-stated so as to avoid any doubt.

    My answer to the first – “would she be eligible to vote in a Scottish election?” – is of course yes.

    My answer to the second – “are you going to disqualify the Alba Party head from voting?” is of course no.

    I’m sure Geri was equally bamboozled by the comment’s confusing structure and that she won’t mind me suggesting that her answers will be the same as my own.

  281. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Geri, Northcode, you NOW say that “residency is the key,” not bloodlines. So under your latest formula (it changes every two minutes) would Stu Campbell of WOS be allowed to vote, having lived in Bath, England the last 33 years?

    Yes or No?

  282. Xaracen
    Ignored
    says:

    Campbell Clansman said;

    “Xaracen, please inform the world who (in your twisted mind) qualifies as “Scotland’s indigenes” and who doesn’t.
    And for that matter, point out the specific law that requires this distinction among Scots.
    For example, the chairperson of the Alba Party was born in London. Is she (in your mind) an “Scottish indigene” and therefore (in your mind) entitled to vote?

    I don’t know if she would or wouldn’t be seen as a Scottish indigene, since no criteria appropriate for setting a sovereignty-based franchise for constitutional-level plebiscites has ever been properly considered to date in or for Scotland. In my view that’s a serious failure of our political system and its advisors to properly appreciate the importance of Scotland’s constitution and the sovereignty of its people under that constitution, and one that arguably had cost us our independence in 2014. Unfortunately, that failure is endemic in the UK’s governance structures, and is entirely unwarranted given the formal basis of the Union, and as such is a primary justification for Scotland’s resumption of independence.

    Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh would be and is able to vote in local and national elections either way, but she will probably not be considered a Scottish indigene. But even if that probability is confirmed, it does NOT mean she will never be entitled to the privilege of participating in a Scottish constitutional vote; there would certainly be criteria for non-indigenes in Scotland to acquire that privilege, such as long-term residence for example, as happens in other countries that restrict franchises on such votes, so it’s not at all an unsolvable problem, as I think you know perfectly well.

    The failure to consider a proper sovereignty-based franchise for Scotland needs to be addressed, and it really should have been by now.

    It needs to be created by a body of serious, sensible and appropriately-knowledgeable people who will be given the responsibility of assembling it, and that process needs to start well before any constitutional plebiscite takes place, since obviously it is going to be a contentious job and needs a lot of careful thought and consideration.

    Helpfully, other countries have had similar situations and have created franchises that they deem fair enough to satisfy their indigenes and non-indigenes both, and as such they can be used as templates that can be adapted for Scotland’s specifics in line with its own constitution.

    Unfortunately, CC, I’m very much afraid that you won’t be on any such body. Soz, and all that. It’s going to be contentious enough already without having you there stirring up shit over irrelevant wrong-headed and bogus whatabouteries.

  283. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    North code – agreed.

    I don’t think CC knows that the English government has just passed laws that gives ppl living abroad a vote on who the UK prime minister should be. LOL.

    They can also donate to their party. How convenient.

    So, Barbara living abroad with absolutely no policy affecting her directly, can vote on who the next prime minister should be that those of us living here have to put up with. Wasn’t this what directly led to Truss? Lol.

    I think he needs to pay more attention to his own government & leave diddy wee Holyrood to the ppl that actually live in Scotland. We’re quite capable of sorting things out for ourselves. We don’t need another country doing it for us.

  284. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    “would Stu Campbell of WOS be allowed to vote, having lived in Bath, England the last 33 years?”

    Probably. He has historical ties to Scotland & can prove it.

    Isn’t that a thing right now amongst yoons? & that’s on an imaginary being concerning Zionists thousands of miles away LOL.

    Stu has family that’s real.

    Plus he fully intends to return the last I read – tho that’s maybe changed since.

  285. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “We’re quite capable of sorting things out for ourselves. We don’t need another country doing it for us.”

    Aye, Geri. Especially another country incapable of sorting out its own government’s corruption and incompetence, incompetence orders of magnitude beyond Holyrood’s. Oh wait, Holyrood is part of that foreign country’s government tae; its wee mini-Westminster – I forgot aboot that for a moment there.

    That’ll explain the ‘Scottish’ government’s rampant corruption and keystone cop levels of incompetence then.

    To paraphrase Philip Larkin’s wee poem ‘This Be The Verse’:

    They fuck you up, your coloniser
    They definitely mean to and they do
    They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.

    By the way, Larkin uses a rhetorical figure called prolepsis in the first line.

    His version, not quite as good as mine, runs ‘They fuck you up your, Mum and Dad’ followed by ‘ They don’t mean to but they do’.

  286. elisa
    Ignored
    says:

    Bizarre. he doesn’t make one argument for any point he raises. Other than he is just simply ‘rigjt’. How do such stupid people get into politics?



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