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How the times do change

Posted on March 23, 2017 by

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  1. 23 03 17 13:57

    How the times do change | speymouth

313 to “How the times do change”

  1. R-type Grunt

    The times haven’t changed for me as I still believe the above quote to be true.

  2. Swami Backverandah

    Dear Theresa

    We want a divorce.

  3. Bruce L

    They are (obviously) completely correct regarding self determination. No doubt they’d’ve been more circumspect in their pronouncements had it looked likely there might be 56 SNP MP’s on the horizon, or if Labour hadn’t, several decades earlier, cravenly abandoned its Scottish home rule stance.

  4. Macart

    Unless of course the current crop reckon they know better than Mrs Thatcher or Mr Major….

    Hello, Ruth? RUTH? Mr Tomkins?….. ANYONE?

  5. Arbroath1320

    Best not shout this news too loudly … it might upset the Despot currently in 10 Downing Street. 😀

  6. Ian McCubbin

    Please let the First Minister know as this is welcome news and more powerful than a UN charter .
    Thanks again Stu.

  7. HandandShrimp

    There was a time when a simple majority of pro-independence MPs would have been enough to trigger independence talks. To win 95% of the seats would have been an absolute stick on for independence.

    Times have indeed changed.

  8. galamcennalath

    At the end … “Scottish nationalists have not needed to convince British Unionist politicians of the legitimacy of Scotland’s right to secede from the UK.”

    I believe that to still be the case. We need to convince Scottish Unionists, yes, but certainly not British Unionist politicians. Frankly, it is a decision for Scots to make, and no one else’s damned business.

  9. chris kilby

    Thatcher and Major would say that. They thought it would never happen and would have changed their tune if they did.

  10. heedtracker

    Cant argue with any of that, except…if Scotland cant claim devo as a right of nationhood in this union, what’s Holyrood devo so far based on, red and blue tory niceness?

  11. we want democracy

    Scotland. The only country that discovered oil and got poorer.

    Scotland. The only country in Europe where you get a free vote but no democracy.

  12. JaceF

    As they try and rewind the UK back to Dickensian levels of poverty and inequality they cannot afford for Scotland to go.

    They have adopted the Alfred Mantalini financial model and the Alf Garnett immigration policy. They cannot build Empire 2.0 without either.

  13. Wullie B

    56/59, even by Kezia Dugdales counting that is a majority in Westminster

  14. Mike

    Yep words spoken when Scottish support for Union was at or close to its peak.
    Now that the actual support for Independence is close enough to make a vote outcome doubtful the rhetoric changes to reflect a reality they never thought to see or experience.

    Suddenly Democracy and Common weal is no longer respected it is no longer sacrosanct.

    It can be challenged and denied with arguments and viewpoints twisted and bent to such a point of obscurity you’d need the Hubble telescope to define them from the vacuum that surrounds them.

    Not now Scotland!


    Not now!

    Ok When?

    Not now!


    Because you might actually vote for it.

  15. Douglas

    We’ve already soared over Mrs Thatcher’s hurdle for independence (a majority of Scottish MPs in favour).

    Unfortunately the test has been changed to gaining a referendum majority.

    We will just need to do that instead

  16. dakk

    Mind you,at that time Scotland was dominated by wall to wall Unionist politicians,so it was just cheap talk.

    I have no doubt in my mind that both these characters would be reading from precisely the same hymn sheet as our current Unionist politicians of all hues lest they allow Scotland to escape English control.It was easy for them then to project all democratic and magnanimous when they could not lose.

    Do you really think Thatcher would have allowed Scotland’s newly discovered oil wealth to escape Westminster clutches at a time when UK was bankrupt?

    They are British after all,Great British windbags the lot of them.And that’s being kind to them.

  17. donald anderson

    She should have telt Godzilla, who hung her portrait in his Office of n.10.

  18. call me dave


    Indeed “Get your SNP MPs to Westminster in enough numbers if you want independence” was what was rammed down our throats in the good old days. Before we had Holyrood.

    Always by a smiley Labour man (a well kent face in the community and usually in a union and with links in all the local pubs and socials where half his family had admin positions on committees or part time jobs). Funny old world then wasn’t it.

    Most of them are all dead now and would not recognise or believe the Scotland we live in today or the present Labour party either.

  19. Sparkle

    Re: Swami Backverandah at 12:20 pm

    “Dear Theresa
    We want a divorce.”

    But I can change, I will give you more of your wages back for housekeeping …don’t leave …you’ll be sorry if you do …you know you can’t live without me …I love you and your silly little tartan ways.

  20. gus1940

    Has any serious consideration ever been given to an approach to The UN given their view on the rights of nations as regards independence?

  21. Camz

    Westminster leaders made such statements from the safety of knowing that 50.01 or more of Scotland would vote to stay, or that Labour would fix the vote (1979).

    Nowadays, they’re not so certain, and it shows in their debates, their media and their followers.

  22. Peter McCulloch

    Never trust a unionist, they will tell you what you want to hear when they have the whip hand.

    But when the tide turns against them, they change their tune and the rules.

  23. Jack Collatin

    As Mick Clark posted on WGD yesterday:-
    “Does anyone think if England wanted an independence referendum they would seek our permission?”
    I am in no doubt that we are being attacked from within; a Fifth Column of Unionist self servers who have done all right out of selling their birthright continue to lie to, threaten and decry their fellow Scots citizens.
    Scots born, they deny that Scotland is a sovereign state.
    They use the EssEnnPee as a scapegoat. They deny that we have been subjugated by a Westminster System, which has treated Scotland as a colony for all of the 310 years of the Union, and especially so in the last 50 years.
    Brexit has killed the Union at last.
    If they think Scotland’s such a basket case, it is they, Davidson, Dugdale, Rennie, Murray, Carmicael, and Mundell, and their wee grubby disciples, who are responsible.

    I watched Findlay, Marra, and Rowley play the Judas card the other day.
    It’s all the fucking SNP’s fault. Does Holyrood pay their wages in pieces of silver?
    Children starve, old age pensioners face Bedroom Tax eviction, unemployed disabled citizens have their allowances cut by £30 a week, and Marra lies that the EssEnnPee has cut pupil funding, in the full knowledge that the 32 LA’s squirrelled away £450 million this year and have a nest egg of £1.2 billion, and have the power to increase CT by 3% locally.
    The Unionist Better Together Collaborators continue to betray Scotland. For what. For a grubby wee wage, at the expense of Scotland’s sovereignty and more importantly the health and webeing of its citizens.
    I’m sure Wullie Rennie, self declared Champion of Children sleeps weel o’ night knowing that he has plunged 260,000 Scots children into poverty. It is he who is guilty. Not the EssEnnPee.
    He props up Tory England. He would see Scotland as a crushed occupied colony of Empire 2.
    Davidson and that gaggle of smug self satisfied Dim But Nasty LisTory Boys would destroy civic society and scrap public ownership of Health, Education and our essential Public Services and Organisations.
    They would sell their birthright for dosh, and fuck the rest of us.
    The past few days have fair got my dander up.
    WE leave Little England to its fate.
    We welcome any political asylum seekers; we’re not full up.

    We are taking back our country by hook or by crook.
    Shape up or ship out.

  24. Alan

    Except she’s wrong about Scotland exercising the right to join the union. The Scottish political elite in the early 1700s decided Scotland would join the union. For some of them joining served their own interests very well. It was not popular with the people of Scotland at the time.

  25. galamcennalath

    Jack Collatin says:

    Scots born, they deny that Scotland is a sovereign state.

    They do indeed. My rationalising of the proud-Scot-but mentality is that they perceive their Scottishness in the same way as a native of Yorkshire or Somerset are proud of their ‘regional’ identity. However, when it comes to nation or country they look to something wider.

    That’s one group. There is another group of Unionists among us. They really don’t give a damn about anything other than their own wealth and position. They are those who owe their privileges to a UK state.

    The good news? IMO those two groups combined represent something like 25%. Also, with Brexit, that second ‘I’m all right Jock’ group could be persuaded Indy will look after their interest better.

  26. DerekM

    She was a lying two faced never to be trusted tory,she only ever said that to try and piss Eck off,he was her biggest pain in the arse.

    Its a nah nah ne nah nah get it up you in political spin.

    At that point there was no parliament and the SNP stuck fighting for councils to win MP`s and the UK press doing the division routine only Labour can beat the tories,while the Labour party was morphing into Thatchers little children.

    Even though she never meant a damn word of it,it was nice of her to set out a platform for Scottish independence,before that we were all kind off scratching our heads going shit what will we do now?

    So here`s to ya you old battleaxe i hope the devil is shoving hot coals right up your tory arrogance.

  27. TheItalianJob

    @Jack Collatin at 1.01pm

    Jack What a great post and we get a lot o’ good ones on this site. Your one is another “cracker” and right on the button.

    Doffs cap to you.

  28. Luigi

    Ach just let the yoons keep moving the goal posts. We are almost at the corner of the pitch already, where there is nowhere left for then to go. I expect the old 40% chestnut to rear its ugly head again just before the desperate end of the union.

    What Westminster says and what Westminster insists on, regarding rules and criteria for granting independence, is neither here nor there. Sovereignty lies with the people. Independence is ours for the taking. No WM rules, no dirty tricks, no hostile media, nothing can stop us.


    Independence will only be achieved when we can take the majority of Scotland with us. We are just (about) touching 50:50, but as yet we still have no clear majority in favour of independence. It’s our own folk that are holding us back. Many are coming round, albeit painfully slowly. No other way, I’m afraid, we have to be patient, disciplined and work very hard until that majority is achieved.

    Independence is like taking an overdue leak. Sure you can squeeze it out a wee bit faster, but you cannot force the issue. You just have to let nature take its course.

    And then we tell Westminster to go to hell. 🙂

  29. carjamtic

    By any of the objective or subjective standards normally used to confirm national status,Scotland is a nation.

    Why does this matter ?

    Once you have accepted this fact (Scotland is a nation) there,then follows,the right to autonomy,that is not to say Scotland is autonomous,but it does establish the rights of the citizens to have that choice (as recognised by the United Nations right to self determination).

    Whatever the reasons (and there are many) if the citizens to choose Independence,this should not be viewed as extreme or unusual as many smaller and/or less prosperous states have emerged over the last 20/30 years.

    To deny the Scotland’s citizens this right to choose,you must either,deny the fact that Scotland is a nation or refuse to acknowledge the UN’s right to self-determination or fail to believe in the democratic process.

    Any refusal or delaying tactics should be viewed in this context and would be against the best interests of the citizens of Scotland.

    Why do the Unionist’s continuously demand evidence of perfection from an Independent Scotland ?

    We will be,all we can be,no more no less,truthful,peaceful,responsible and law abiding,yes,but also respectful,fearless,daring and safe,in a modern fast-changing world.

  30. Effijy

    Let me see now, Scotland being stuck to Westminster where we are second class citizens of their colony, we can get:

    Woman’s retirement age increased from 60 to 67 in one fell swoop, with their being talk of it going up to 70 for all, and no doubt work until you die without the EU to support Human Rights.

    In some areas of Scotland, the average Male life expectancy is now lower than the age of retirement.

    We have the SNP Shielding our most vulnerable from the Bed Room Tax, and now it looks like Pensioners will be punished for having one spare room. Even Labour support this horrible Tory Tax

    It also looks like the Pension increases that were locked in, are about to be locked out. Labour ended Final Salary Pensions.

    We can see Westminster Privatising the NHS, gently at first and then bang, you can’t afford any form heath treatment, just Die.

    The Tories could bring back prescription charges, Toll Charges, University Fees, Hospital Parking Fees, etc.

    Oh how great it is to be tied to the United England!

  31. HandandShrimp

    56/59, even by Kezia Dugdales counting that is a majority in Westminster


    It would a close run thing though, especially if she used Baillie’s abacus

  32. Dr Jim

    Devolution was only ever the bribe to stay within the Union

    Although I’m a SNP member and all for consensus, democracy and co-operation there has never been parity of voting in all four constituent parts of the UK which has led to the present day situation
    No individual country or indeed a combination of all three of the smaller populated countries can at any time exersise their will or opinion over that of England which has the greatest population therefore democracy in it’s truest form can never be realised

    In order to leave the Union I have never believed that a referendum on the subject reflects anything other than a snapshot poll of an on the day issue and will and has ended up in the total dissatisfaction of everyone who takes part

    The so called will of the people has been amply demonstrated by the returning of the same party for the last ten years
    Even Tories vote SNP for their MPs and MSPs because they understand the resulting governance of Scotland has been better or they wouldn’t do it
    Reservations about Independence is understandable for these folk but it’s perfectly obvious and for Ruth Davidson and Kezia Dugdale hugely embarrassing that Scotland as a country prefers the SNP it’s why they’re so angry all the time

    So I’ll just agree with Mrs Thatcher and John Major when the say, Scotland should just do it, and referendum be damned
    If you asked people if they wanted jam today and jam tomorrow they’d change their minds by teatime for marmalade because it took their fancy or they’d want a different flavour of jam

    Because there is no pleasing folk all of the time


  33. Ken500

    Tory intransigence and abuse of power over Scottish Independence and Scotland’s right to self determination and right to stay in EU will take down the Tory Gov.

    Their intransigent corruption in the Tory Gov at Westminster will take it down. Theresa May is more than likely to be gone soon because of the increasing scandalous and shocking behaviour of the Westminster Gov with absolutely no mandate for what they are doing. So out of touch with the average population it is unrepresentative and criminal. They claim they want to help and represent ordinary people. How can they when they don’t know any and talk to them even less in their condescending intransigence.

    Anyone who opposes democracy, the rule of Law, the rights of the people will not succeed.Breaks International Law like the Tories/unionists are doing will not survive very long. The reason why the Tories will fail is because they are trying to do the impossible. What they want, not what a majority of the electorate want.

    This arguments and struggle will continue until it succeeds and Scotland is Independent in the EU as the majority of the citizens wish. No matter how many unelected Gov politicians or officials try to stop Democracy and Democratic choice. People are not stupid they know when they are being manipulated and abused by corrupt politicians. The will of the people will prevail not the the corrupt politicians and officials who are supposed to represent and comply with the people’s choice. Agreement will be made and reached because that is the only sensible way to go. No one can frustrate the will of the majority of the people forever.

    England/Wales will be Independent in the EU. That is what a majority want. There will be travel and trade. No doubt as per usual in everyone’s interest. It is an Island mass.

    The majority in Britain 50+ according to Polls (without manipulation?) are in total agreement with that solution. Then the majority will be happier in cooperate with their neighbours and Ireland could eventually be United if that is what the majority of the people want and there is a fair vote.

    It is just called economic, social and hidtorical progress. No person can put asunder. A diplomatic agreemebt or a nasty divorce. The way of the world in the interest of co existence and historical agreement. The majority of the people like to help each other in the interest of fairness and equality. The majority of the people like to share and cooperate with each other. It is Westminster undemocratic corrupt unionists without a mandate who get in the way. They try to push people around and impose their will of greed and corruption and not paying their dues. The friend of no one.They will not get away with it. Democracy and freedom of choice and self determination will prevail. Any corrupt lying politician, who stands in the way, will be swept aside.

  34. heedtracker

    Wonder what Snatcher Thatcher would say about this. Her crew were just as mental though, their ERM farce interest rates were hitting 20%, now 9%. Everything about the tories is so shit, yet they all get such a lovely time, from their ever loyal BBC grovellers and poodles.

  35. Artyhetty

    Thatcher, the (childrens) milk snatcher, said that Scotland have ‘exercised that right by remaining in the union’. So, you could be independent, but choose otherwise. She was saying that Scotland had a right, but note there is no mention of Scotland having the means. She, snatcher, knew that Scotland more than had the means, she would never have said so.

    She would have had a very good idea of Scotland’s economic worth and future economic potential. She would have the same attitude as Tereza has now.

    Everyone has the right to shelter, and food but many do not have the means. The unionists have made sure than many in Scotland do not and if they have anything to do with it, will never have the means for a better, more prosperous life.

    Jack Collaton@1.01pm

    I couldn’t have said it better. Scotland has a right to be very angry. Let’s hope that they show it at the ballot box in May. Labour are a disgrace, wolves in sheeps clothing for a long time. People can see that now. Out with them in May, lying troughers are no longer welcome in Scotland.

  36. stewartb

    Regardless of whether those Tory PMs would take a different view now, I’d still welcome one of our MPs reading out these quotes in full (with the actual sources given) in order to get them (re-written?) into Hansard, preferably at PMQs, and similarly an MSP doing the same in Holyrood.

    In the hierarchy of issues/values in the debate with Unionists, the one of prime importance is not EU membership or NATO membership or education policy or economic policy etc. but, in Thatcher’s words, our “undoubted right to self-determination” – a “right” that given a host of circumstances that have been developing over many years, there is now an urgent NEED to exercise.

    It will be important to frame the debate – the case-making – around explaining and justifying to the unconvinced this ‘need’. Yes we need credible answers to things like currency, but if there is no wider acceptance in the population of this need-based case then we may (simply) re-play 2014.

  37. schrodingers cat

    Dr Jim says: #Justdoit!

    I dont disagree with any of your post, but i would ask… how?

    what do we do if treeza refuses section 30?

    disolve holyrood and stand on a udi ticket ?

  38. heedtracker


    Tory ERM farce interest rates were hitting 20%, now 0%.

    Toryboy’s Nigel Lawson, John Major, Norman Lamont ERM interest rates at 15%, all treated like sage and brilliant experts today, on every thing, when they should be tarred and feathered. Before Crash Gordo was even considering becoming the saviour of the world too.

  39. Bob Mack

    @Jack Collating,

    Indeed Jack, we have reached a fork in the road after 300 odd years. Scotland learned the lessons of Mrs Thatcher and since that time never elected a majority of Tories to represent them. Mrs Thatcher fatally wounded the Tory vote in Scotland.

    Since that time there has been increasing diversion in the preference for governance here in Scotland. Labour would today have solid Scottish representation in Westminster had they not dropped the cloak and revealed themselves to be more interested in supporting the Conservatives than representing the views of the Scottish people.

    Our future therefore is quite stark. Twenty or more years under Tory government, possibly again supported by Lib Dems, or the opportunity to take our future into our own hands. I know my preference.

    Faced with such a choice I would hope the Scottish people evaluate the risks, actual and potential post Brexit.and come to the conclusion that we are actually no worse off being independent.

  40. sensibledave

    … deep breath, steel yourself sensible old boy, here we go…..

    I see no contradiction between the words quoted in the article – and the situation we find ourselves in today.

    If Scotland want Independence – then it should have it.

    Scotland was asked relatively recently, they didn’t want it.

    There is no evidence to suggest they want it anymore now than they did then.

    If there is evidence that Scotland does want another indyref then it should have one.

    I may be wrong, but I am not aware that Ms Sturgeon has actually said she wants another referendum?

    Then, if it is determined that there is evidence that the people of SCotland want a referendum and Ms Sturgeon says she actually wants a referendum then one should be arranged – for after the time when the rest of the UK has dealt with its most important issue for a lifetime.

  41. Robert J. Sutherland

    Artyhetty @ 13:56:

    […] wolves in sheeps clothing for a long time

    Actually, more like weasels in sheeps’ clothing. Or even possibly just sheep, period, for the total lack of gumption they have able to muster for a considerable time.

  42. Robert Graham

    a clear unambiguous statement from previous tory prime ministers .
    I see a few comments that seek to add their own interpretation to something thats there for all here to read , I dont require any help or reading lessons thank you very much.

  43. Bob Mack


    Your point is fair enough. What I would use to refute it simply this. Circumstances have indeed changed. Like JK Rowling beaten spouse we have learned the leopard never changes it’s spots. Promises were made and broken.(Smith Commission)
    They could not even be bothered to talk to our chosen representatives to discuss tactics on withdrawal from the EU.

    Every reasonable SNP amendment in Parliament has been talked down or ditched simply because it comes from separatists.

    Dave, you want respect but give none. I read your posts sometimes and what shines through is arrogance. Your posts are a microcosm of what we see in Parliament every day . That is why we want to leave.

    Watch the council elections in May. There is a gauge of how the Scottish people think right now. If there is no swing to the SNP then I will accept your point. I know however there will be. Canvassing is telling that story just now.

  44. skintybroko


    Re pensions – our politicians dont give a monkeys as they have an extremely lucrative pension that we the ordinary tax payer are supporting and can never emulate. Labour ruined the pensions for everybody when they “borrowed” the pension monies to support their policies. In any other way of life that is tantamount to embezzlement.

  45. Robert J. Sutherland

    sensibledave @ 14:05:

    Scotland was asked relatively recently, they didn’t want it.

    They also had a choice over the EU even more recently, and decided across the whole country that they wanted to keep it. Checkmate. It needs to be resolved, and the only possible way is by a new referendum. It’s a matter of constitutional correctness, not party-political. Even a union zoomer like you should be able to see that it’s necessary to restore a measure of UK stability, either way..

    There is no evidence to suggest they want it anymore now than they did then.

    Rubbish. That’s plainly factually incorrect. Half the country are already clearly unhappy with the current state of affairs, and for you that’s inadequate? Does it have to rise to 95% or something before you will see it? You need to make an appointment with Specsavers dear risibledave!

    If there is evidence that Scotland does want another indyref then it should have one.

    Oh, how gracious of you. Should you decide? Or should we use privately-run sampled polls to decide? (Like that’s reliable.) Or do we have to have a referendum to decide if we want a referendum? Pshaw!

  46. crazycat

    I don’t have a Twitter account, but I read it and have just seen this:

    I’ll assume it’s haste/incompetence rather than deliberate (aren’t I nice?).

    Could someone who does tweet please send the BBC a message that if they are going to use quotation marks, what’s inside them needs to be correct?

    Shock and sadness, not shock at sadness.

  47. crazycat

    Re: my post at 2.30

    I’ve just phoned the BBC complaints department and spoken to a man with a lovely Northern Irish accent – the tweet may have been removed or corrected because he could only find a slightly different one, but he said he would pass on my complaint (there were keyboard sounds, so he was typing something.)

  48. Bob Mack

    I suppose the word which explains what is happening in Scotland is TREND.

    Fifty years ago the SNP would have been happy to have had the one representative in Parliament and a few on local councils. The trend to vote for SNP is ever upwards, so much so that today there are over 50 SNP members in Parliament.

    Remember them Dave. Elected by the Scottish people to represent them in Parliament ? Despite the voting system at Hollywood they have a larger number of seats than Tories and Labour put together. Again because the Scottish people voted for them.

    Now call me old fashioned but such clarity of choice indicates the Scottish people have invested faith in the SNP to govern in the interests of our country.

    Councils will probably be next.

    Despite this we have a poster from England asking what is the evidence the Scottish public have empowered the SNP to make such a decision on their behalf.

    Damned if I know eh ?

  49. stewartb

    I really like this quote concerning when to hold an indyref2: “for after the time when the rest of the UK has dealt with its most important issue for a lifetime.” This from sensibledave at 2.05pm.

    Is it not a pretty damn important issue for this part of the UK (Scotland) too! But despite this, the implication here seems to be that the Scottish government and its supporters should just watch from the sidelines, passive and patient – not being a bother, a nuisance, not adding to the workload of the UK government – until big decisions of lifetime importance are made on our behalf by a Tory Government that we in Scotland have so strongly endorsed at the ballot box.

    We just need to be more stoical. (Stoicism: the endurance without the display of feelings and without complaint.)

  50. gus1940


    It has been announced today that the already obscenely high Parking Charges at The RIE are to be substantially increased.

    Is it not a fact that normally governments can borrow money at cheaper rates than commercial enterprises?

    Is it not also unlikely that the organisations who hit the jackpot allowing them to rip off the taxpayers which is known as PFI just went into their metaphorical back pockets to set up their PFI Schemes? If that is the case they must have had to borrow the money and if what I say above is the case they will be paying higher interest rates than the government would if they were borrowing said money.

    Over and above that to make it worthwhile they have to add to the interest they are paying a handsome profit for themselves.

    If what I say above is true it follows that it must be glaringly obvious that it would be greatly to the taxpayers’ benefit if the government were to compulsorily buy out the PFI Contracts at a price both favourable to the government and not leaving the PFI Owners out of pocket (and I don’t include future profits in that sum).

    It was done with The Skye Bridge and all it would need would be for WM to give The Scottish Government the necessary borrowing powers and if that was refused wait until we win Indyref2 and enact the necessary legislation to borrow the money.

    It would no doubt be argued by opponents that it would create a substantial Scottish National Debt but if that proved a political obstacle the answer would be to pay to the lenders the sum currently paid to The PFI Holders which would mean that along with paying the reduced amount of interest a substantial capital paymment would be made each year to reduce the amount borrowed. In that case the buy-out scheme would be financially neutral initially but like with a mortgage as capital repayments were made the interest part would be reduced just like with a mortgage.

    If I am right surely it is blindingly obvious that this is the way to go and Consort could stick their parking charges at RIE where the sun doesn’t shine.

    If there are holes in my argument please point them out and accept my apologies.

  51. Al Dossary

    Majority of MP / MSP etc works for me. And the Yoon can hardly cry “Not Fair” when we weresigned into this damned Union by some unelected lords, much to the chagrin of the majority of the population.

    £20,457 is the price that George Lockhart puts on the treachery of the Scots Parliament back in 1707. £20k for the Lords, and £457 to the Earl of Glasgow for arranging it. (Please don’t jump in telling me I’m wrong – I’m quoting from memory, the figures are close enough). Source – The Lockhart papers, which are a collection of letters and papers by George Lockhart covering the early 1700s.

    There are some cracking quotes where he comments on Westminster being lime a pack of Braying animals

    Well worth a look – the Lockhart Papers are available free on Google.

  52. Artyhetty

    Re;Robert Graham@2.12

    However, the ‘previous’ tory minister is dead. What that dreadful snatcher said hardly stands in law does it. So some are trying to make sense, if any can be gained, of this ‘statement’, as in what it represents in the present.

    If you don’t like the comments, why read them at all? Why comment on why the comments are not relevant or welcome to you? Strange, but we are all pretty much singing from the same hymn sheet, except for the odd yoon trying to distract, and debunk the truth, they don’t like the truth very much.


  53. TheStrach

    Scotland already has a mandate for independence. We have a majority of MSPs in favour of independence, 56 MPs at Westminster and 2 MEPs.

    We are faced by a unionist minority at Holyrood and an illegitimate Tory government at Westminster which only won the General Election by breaking electoral law. In a true democracy they’d lose their majority and all the acts passed since 2015 (including the Brexit referendum one) would be annulled.

    If May is stupid enough to try and stop an independence referendum she will cause a huge constitutional crisis which could increase the likelihood of the break-up of the UK.

    I’m sure the SNP have gone through each scenario and I trust them to make the right decisions in order to achieve our independence.

  54. Jock Scot

    Not only have the times changed. The percentages have also changed. The smell of fear is noxious at times.

  55. schrodingers cat

    Dave says
    there is no evidence that scots want another ref……..

    what evidence would you require, polling data?

    im unaware that anyone decides such issues using polling data,

    we uses mandates and elections even in westminster

    refusal to grant the section 30 could result another holyrood election with a manifesto declaring UDI with the next referendum in scotland being, Do you want to remain an independent country….

    will you be back here then arguing the minority unionist polling data?

  56. yesindyref2

    You do know that if it wasn’t for the terrorist attack yesterday the vote would have been taken in Holyrood to ask for the Section 30 legislation? And that that will take place on Tuesday now, and it’ll be a vote in favour, SNP + Greens having a majority?

  57. heedtracker

    If Scotland want Independence – then it should have it.

    Scotland was asked relatively recently, they didn’t want it.

    There is no evidence to suggest they want it anymore now than they did then.”

    Sensible, near on half Scots electorate vote SNP. Is it 47% last Scots GE?

    Polls are great and everything but how much more “relatively recently,” do you want it to be?

    etc sensibledave.

    Its a hard road for all the beeb gimps in Scotland today sensible, all hysterically ranting away at Scots to STOP voting SNP, your own good, for the UK zone, for the Empire 2.0 sensibledave. A really dirty dirty job, requiring hacks and placemen with no principles and certainly no respect for anything we might call balance at the beeb.

    But the main thing is sensible, you have the polls, to hammer away at Scots like me and election results are all meaningless, until it really counts.

  58. Lenny Hartley

    Gus 1940 re un route my understanding is that the Scotland act of 1999 put the requirement of a section 30 order into law, if you try to get round this it could result in years of delay. So yeah U can go down the UN route but it might take a while

  59. Proud Cybernat

    When the SNP have an absolute majority in Holyrood the Yoons rage that “Scotland is a one-party state”. When the SNP form a minority government (requiring the support of other parties to get legislation through parliament) then the Yoons rage even louder that the “SNP have No Mandate”.

    I mean, wtf!!

    Of course, Yoon democracy in Holyrood is entirely different. Every single Slab minority Government from 1997-2007 was entirely legitimate.

    Funny old world, innit!

  60. heedtracker

    Of course, Yoon democracy in Holyrood is entirely different. Every single Slab minority Government from 1997-2007 was entirely legitimate.

    Funny old world, innit!

    If we don’t get out now, their Great Reform Bill is going to annihilate Holyrood completely, sorry, The Great Reform Bill is going to strengthen this precious precious so very wery precious union.

    And beeb gimps will make sure we like it.

  61. Robert Graham

    artyhetty – i wasnt going to respond but your comment of ” if you dont like the comments why read them ” mm a bit of a circular argument there , a bit like the chicken and egg one , i hope i am not being presumptuous in posting without your express permission ,please accept my humble apologies .

  62. dakk


    How does this part of Thatcher’s statement

    ‘no English party or politician would stand in their way’,

    square with the ‘Vow’ intervention before 2014 Indyref.

    It is a contradiction alright.

    Not that Thatcher or Major would actually have honoured that pledge either.

  63. Ken500

    Thatcher was illegally and secretly taking the equivalent of £Billions out of Scotland.offshorimg it and keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act. The Scottish ministers in the Scottish Office were sworn to secrecy. One of the resigned because of what she was doing. The papers were released in 2014 under the Official Secrets Act after thirty years. So the politician will be dead. So they can never be brought to account of justice. Written on the Gov papers in her own hand. ‘this must be kept secret’. She took all the Oil revenues and spent them in London S/E building Canary Wharf and 26 miles of Tilbury Docks and left Scotland in poverty. Forsyth and Lang were Thatcher’s henchmen. Thatcher cut the Scottish Grant illegally. Shut down every manufacturing facilities. . Unemployment was up to 12%.

    Along with all the Labour politicans. in the Scottish Office. Willie Ross etc. Who were taken in and deluded by Westminster Officials. Giving out the absolute lie that Scotland was subsidised by the rest of the UK. A total and utter lie in every way.

    Refusing Scotland Devolution or any kind of control over there affairs, and grinding Scotland into the ground with biased political decision. To take every resources and energy out of Scotland and not make any investment in Scotland. Leaving the infrastructure an International disgrace. What they have done is absolutely appalling. Until 2000 Scotland got a Devolution with limited power better than nothing. Hide the books and said they could not collect separate figures. A complete lie. Manipulated the figures to lie.

    The Westminster MP and Officials are still destroying the Scottish economy with their illegal decisions. Resulting in Scotland losing Billions. They do the same in Europe. illegal decisions is cost European countries Billions. Getting the rest of the UK In to Trns of debt. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Scotland has to pay off the debt payments of the loans and wasteful policies in the rest of the UK. Illegal Trident, illegal HS2, illegal Hinkley Point, illegal Heathrow. Wasteful appalling decisions. Costing £Billions of illegal borrowing and ruining the Environment. The are less waste credible alternative. The Tory incompetents can’t count or even read a balance sheet. Most of them should be in jail for crimes against humanity.

    If they think they can getting away with it they can think again. They are not.

    The unionist Parties behaviour towards Scotland is an International disgrace. They are coarse, nasty crooks. Most of them should be in jail Disgustimg liars of every hue. Lining their pockets on public money and not paying their dues. The Barnett Formula secretly used to illegally defraud Scotland for years and £Billions of revenues and democratic choice of who the money is raised and spent in Scotland. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Imposing inequality and unfairness on vulnerable people. Agsinst the majority wishes and the public interest.

  64. Robert J. Sutherland

    Getting back to that interesting extract that Stu quotes, Thatcher’s view that Scotland had a right to secede but not to demand devolution was ultimately rendered politically unsustainable by evolving events that clearly showed that without meaningful devolution, Scotland would inevitably secede sooner or later.

    Labour’s subsequent recognition of that reality was what brought devolution, not any high principle that it was the correct thing to do, constitutionally speaking. Indeed they are now so wedded to that pragmatic view that they have become the drowning man, clutching at the straw which is a UK-wide constitutional reform that is never going to happen. It is the very reality of that UK constitutional impasse and Labour’s obdurate failure to recognise it which is bringing about their own destruction.

    Oddly, I believe that John Major, of all people, did realise the constitutional right of secession most honestly. Brought about in large part not because of Scotland, but because of the Irish Question that he had to grapple with intensely. I believe he has never received due recognition for convincing the republican side that the UK, under his watch at least, no longer had neo-imperial pretensions to NI at least.

    Which all begs the question of where the Tories (and their Labour and LibDem hangers-on) have been more recently. They were all for having a referendum to settle the issue when they were full of confidence that they would easily win it, and thereby put away the issue for a long time. (Remember Labour’s transient leaderene, Wendy, saying “Bring it on”. Only to be promptly removed on the orders of – guess who? – El Gordo, the political coward who never could decide anything serious until it was all too late.)

    The Unionists might even have succeeded in that aim after a rather scary (for them) win, if they hadn’t blown it by their utterly careless and dishonest reaction afterwards. Very many yes-voters (including yours truly) put a lot of effort into making genuine and sensible proposals for a way forward within the Union commensurate with the latter-day assurances of significant devolution that were offered by the “no” side in order to win. (Whether in fact it had any effect or not.) Only to be trashed by a cynical exercise of least-common denominator backroom bargaining operated by a cartel of the Unionist parties.

    It was the Unionists’ utter betrayal then, but especially that of the ruling Tories, which damaged the result irretrievably. It is the height of hypocrisy for them now to be demanding of the losing side in 2014 that it “respect the result” when they manifestly trashed the result themselves, and directly brought about the upsurge in the “yes” side thereafter. And that’s without the EUref result a couple of years later, which has now made the situation constitutionally untenable.

    Now the Unionists are no longer keen on “bringing it on”, and instead are now desperately trying to maintain there is no need or right. While everyone and their blind-&-deaf uncle can see their self-serving motivation. Principle has been thrown to the wind, and they are now cynically attempting to re-write constitutional history, using a poll result or two as a meagre fig leaf to cover their shameful embarrassment.

    In vain.

  65. Clootie

    I will give Thatcher and Major the benefit of the doubt and accept they held those values on a personal basis.

    However Whitehall knows the truth regarding the financial impact on rUK if Scotland leaves. Whitehall knows the “reputation” impact of Scotland leaving – “Great” lost from Great Britain…and Whitehall through decades of placement control (sycophants) advise the true power brokers who run this union. It is those who hide in the shadows (some in open sight your majesty) who run the UK cash machine as a private enterprise.

    So the self interest of a few will dictate media coverage and UK politics.

    Leaving is not only a political debate. It is aboutthe greed/self interest primarily of a centuries old Empire base. The elite, the few.

    Many politicians knew how wrong the Ireland position was but the machine held on.
    India, the Middle East etc etc – the machine held on.

  66. Elmac

    The Unionists have been falsely claiming that the majority of Scots do not want a referendum and therefore no referendum should take place. How do they square this with polling results prior to the Brexit vote that showed a genuine clear majority of people in favour of remain who presumably did not therefore want a referendum. Surely, applying the same logic, the Brexit referendum should never have taken place.

  67. yesindyref2

    @ Jock Scot says: “The smell of fear is noxious at times.

    Indeed, and some are getting very personal with their attacks. It’s the time to really keep the heid – I’m getting decent unionists defending me now because they’re sick of the extreme comments too.

  68. Jack Collatin

    Sensibledave oozes the haughty superiority of a Brit elitist, in the guise of a ‘reasonable man’ delivering a measured rebuttal of Thatcher’s self determination statement.
    Since 2014, we have returned 56 out of 59 MP’s to Westminster on an Independence ticket, we have returned a Pro Self Determination party to Holyrood for a record third term, we have voted 62% to 38% Remain in the EU, yet a man whom we roundly rejected in my constituency appears on BBC in a cynically weighted Unionist ‘debate’ is given free rein to dictate to me what I as a Scot can and can’t have from an English unelected Prime Minister.
    Sensibledave refuses to accept that Scotland is a nation. With an inferred smirk he cedes that if Scotland wants Independence all they need do is vote for it.
    Yet he refuses to acknowledge the seismic shift of the past 2 1/2 years since Indyref 1.
    We must dance through his Unionist hoops; we must provide him with detailed answers to everything, but not question May’s cliff edge Brexit? He expects me to justify my existence to him?
    I don’t think so.
    He is a proud Brit.That’s how he got where he is, ape you bosses’ views on the world and you’ll climb the greasy pole.
    Well, I for one feel not the slightest compunction to justify myself to a dyed in the wool Unionist.
    He has the full weight of the Brit Establishment behind him, from our pernicious Foreign Owned MSM, the Belted Land Owning Earls, the Finance houses, the ‘Professions’ in Law Accountancy Insurance Industry Farming Fisheries Agriculture and Trade, the Established Religions, the Armed Forces and of course the Rich.
    We, the people, are suppressed by an Oligarchy which is steeped in Unionism, and like Sensibledave, sees itself as a bulwark against the People of Scotland, the Lumpen Proletariat, and will do or say anything to keep us in our place. The Status Quo will be maintained at all costs.
    Sensibledave was brought up as a True Blue Brit, groomed to be a leader, as long as he toed the line.
    There are many Pro Independence supporters who are accountants, lawyers, insurance brokers, bankers, middle management civil servants. But they better keep their views to themselves if they want to ‘get on’ in their walk of life.
    The Scottish Branch of the Brit Establishment, by the hierarchical nature of elitism are few in number but ‘control’ the Scottish colony.
    1% of Scots own as much as the bottom 50%. 260,000 of our children, in a population of 5.4 million live in an English dominated Parliament Brit State engineered poverty.
    I believe that it was in Mark’s gospel that Jesus, who was being anointed with expensive oil by a woman, was challenged by some of his disciples for wasting oil that could be sold and the proceeds given to the poor.
    It is reported that Christ was foreseeing his imminent death, when he said that he would not always be with them, but that the poor would always be there.
    Sensibledave and that clique, that elite, that hierarchical top layer, have twisted this to suit their own end. ‘The poor will always be with us’, as long as the State transfers the wealth of the nation to the few at the top. An obscene interpretation of Jesus’ words.
    The game has been rigged in favour of the rich and powerful for 300 years now, and sensibledave sees nothing wrong with that,and the occupied colony system held in check by willing locals, while Scotland’s citizens suffer, and our EU friends who have done us the great honour to come and live and work here, are thrown out of Scotland because an English Cabal of arch right wing Imperialists say so.
    We’ve had enough, sensibledave. I won’t be corresponding with an anonymous shit stirrer.
    What will you do when Scotland falls and Empire 2 is Engwaland and Gibraltar?

  69. K1

    ‘…a referendum then one should be arranged – for after the time when the rest of the UK has dealt with its most important issue for a lifetime.’

    This most important issue for a lifetime affects Scotland as ‘part of the current UK’ as we are actually the only other signatory on the treaty with England. Ergo United Kingom?

    We are going to arrange it that we have a vote at the resolution of the Brexit negotiations in such a way that we have a ‘choice’ ‘between’ two options: to stay in the current set up (as outlined in the final Brexit deal, at that time) or leave and by so doing become an independent nation, again.

    It’s not difficult for any rational person to understand this Davey boy. We are not an appendage of England. As yesindyref2 just pointed out to you, there has been a temporary delay in the debate in the Scottish parliament, this will resume and we will set in motion the legally recognised protocol of gaining a Section 30 order to take forward the Scottish government’s mandate of providing an option for the people of Scotland to decide on whether we want to stay in the UK set up or not.

    If you want to keep regurgitating the speculative propaganda about mandates/polling…’There is no evidence to suggest they want it anymore now than they did then.’ When there is ample evidence to show that there is, then continuing to do so on a site where the vast majority who post are completely aware of the actual reality in Scotland, will continue to call you out on your sneaky and wilfully obsfucating pish for what it is.

  70. Mike

    Desperate Davey

    “There is no evidence to suggest they want it anymore now than they did then.”

    That’s what referendums are for they determine what people want at any given time and place.

  71. Mike

    I may be wrong, but I am not aware that Ms Sturgeon has actually said she wants another referendum?

    Oh I’m sure she would prefer if Westminster just agreed to Scotland being Independent without one but its best to let the people of Scotland decide.

    With a referendum.

  72. heedtracker

    Awful stuff, as a divert back to 1979:D

    All these guys do is fart out same ol same ol Scotland the what meh, for decades. Easy money I guess. What’s “an existential nationalist like Alex Salmond” anyway?

    Doesn’t matter.

    Scotland, only land in the west that struck vast oil and gas reserves in the 60’s and is now bankrupt, allegedly, and hopefully, in yoon world.

  73. K1

    Well said Jack.

  74. yesindyref2

    Another article by Tom Gordon in the Herald attacking Cunningham without also saying Rummbles had the same opinion – which he stated on ITN – that Holyrood shouldn’t have given in to terrorism. Plus of course the “witnesses” who heard her say something about the indy ref.

    That story was in the Express once, closed to comments which is actually sensible of it (my guess it was open and they had to delete the lot). But the Herald carries the smear story twice.

    I suspect Gordon will be moving to the Express where he rightly belongs – or there’s an opening at Dover House. Can’t come soon enough for me, though for those who’d like to see the Herald fail (not me), the longer he stays there the more he’ll destroy it – including for reasonable NOes.

    What’s even more sickening is that you could see Gordon coming down the stairs in the background of the BBC Scotland news. He sat in the chamber listening to all 5 party leaders giving decent speeches about the atrocity, in total agreement with each other as a rare event, and then came back and wrote his venom instead of covering that concensus. Words fail me.

  75. Socrates MacSporran

    Power in the United Kingdom rests with the Westminster Parliament. They have the final say on everything – having devolved some powers to the assemblies in Belfast and Cardiff and the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh.

    As old Enoch Powell stated: “Power devolved is power retained”. So, as I keep stressing, the front-line troops in the independence argument are our MPs in Westminster.

    David Cameron, when he hurriedly introduced EVEL – English Votes for English Laws, opened the door, in my opinion, for the SNP members at Westminster.

    They should reconvene the Westminster Scottish Grand Committee to discuss and vote on the motion that Scotland becomes an independent country.

    This would pass by, at worst, 56 votes to 3. HOWEVER, when it went to the full House for ratification, the massed ranks of English MPs would surely vote it down.

    Now, if that does not convince the doubters and Unionists in Scotland who calls the tune, nothing will, and, I would reckon, Yes would win the subsequent Independence referendum.

  76. David Caledonia

    We can all talk about the so called United Kingdom till the cows come home, there has never been a United Kingdom, apart from inside the head of westminster spinners and liar
    They even have the cheek to tell scotland that we don’t want another referendum, its funny, nobody ever comes and asks me or my friends about this, do you have to be a don’t know, not to sure, or a member of the Labour, Tory, or Liberal branches of westminster to be part of these polls, i get stopped in the street now and again for surveys, half the lies i tell to those people are not true, poor souls, it makes their day worthwhile if you stop and answer their questions, get me on one of their polls and it would say, one person gave some unusual answers, when asked if he thinks scotland should be independent, he wrote, don’t be so bloody nosey and mind your own business lol

  77. Mike

    “Then, if it is determined that there is evidence that the people of SCotland want a referendum”

    You mean we should have a referendum to determine if we want another referendum?

  78. gordoz


    Good to hear the BBC radio news broadcasting our parliaments political leader with sound words on Scotland’s thoughts of the fatal street attacks at Westminster, London.
    Ruth Harrison said ….WTF ???

    Predictable to end the BBC in full on Britannia mode as usual.
    Didn’t even follow it up with the FM’s words at all listen to 4pm news.

    Ohhh how they wish she was in control.

  79. sensibledave

    … In response to the general theme.

    1. Does Ms Sturgeon currently believe that a majority of Scots currently want another independence referendum ?

    2. If she does, what evidence does she have? Or, has she taken the view that she now not only professes to know that the majority of Scots want another referendum but that she also knows that a net number have changed their minds and there is now a majority in favour of Independence?

    2. My statement that said something like if the Scots want Independence then they should have it” – has no edge, arrogance or qualification. It is what I believe. Contrary to the ridiculous meme that is often repeated here, most folk in England want their neighbours in the next county or country to be happy. What no one seems to be able to answer is “Who speaks for the 55%?”. That majority voted to remain part of the UK. Now you can deflect your blame on to me all you want. I am a nobody. I live in the south east of England. I didn’t have a vote in indyref1 and I didn’t really care about the outcome thereof (I may have mentioned that a few times – to no avail). 55% of Scots voted to stay in the UK. Not me, or anyone else in England. In all the bluster about oppression, can you just let me know what the message is to the 55% majority of democratic, law-abiding Scottish voters that voted No and meant No?

    3. Can anyone point me to a quote where Ms Sturgeon has said she wants to hold another referendum?


    As I have written on previous threads, we have the ridiculous situation where Ms Sturgeon hasn’t said she actually wants to hold a referendum and Ms May hasn’t said no! Again, as I have suggested on previous threads, it is my view that that is because neither of them actually want one before Brexit – for very obvious reasons.


  80. sensibledave

    yesindyref2 3:11 pm

    You wrote “You do know that if it wasn’t for the terrorist attack yesterday the vote would have been taken in Holyrood to ask for the Section 30 legislation? And that that will take place on Tuesday now, and it’ll be a vote in favour, SNP + Greens having a majority?”

    Yes I do.

    I repeat, show me where Ms Sturgeon says she wants to hold a referendum.

  81. yesindyref2


    There you go! The answer to all your questions. Membership is not obligatory, but a donation towards the scotref fund would be appreciated

  82. torquil fluffington smythe

    Completly OT

    Scene–London Club–persona Eton educated Government Minister
    and M15 Spook–time-earlier this week

    GM I say old chap I have come up with a marvellous wheez–Spook-
    tell all old man I am all ears–GM lets dish this IRA chappie
    who has just died, along with his fellow travellers in the SNP–Spook good lets have it– GM If you drop a few hints to your poodles in the media that Martin was one of yours and was called in to sort out the SNP scumballs for us we then have both lots in deep poo, and by the by if you get your tweedy chappy up there to publish an article in the local rag playing the secretarian card we can sow enough seeds to dish any hope of a yes vote in the referendum they keep calling for.–Spook say no more old chap, consider it done.

  83. K1

    As you’re a big Tory supporter and can’t get yer head around what’s going on Davey boy. Here’s Andrew Neil interviewing Murdo Fraser (Tory MSP) about the Scottish government’s mandate.

    In this interview from a few short days ago, Murdo foolishly begins tae make the point about whether the SNP have a majority, over and over, Neil eventually rather casually but nonetheless deftly points out ‘the Scottish parliament was designed so that no one party can easily gain a majority’ or words to that affect. Watch him flounder and embarrass himself further with nothing but pure anti SNP rhetoric even though he is asked time and again what his party’s position is…

    Do you not understand Davey boy that ‘if’ it was FPTP in our Scottish elections and given how difficult it is to gain a majority with the D’Hondt system, that we would have a stonking majority of SNP MSP’s in our parliament? A majority the likes of your party of choice can only dream of, the astounding fact is, even though it happened once in 2011, is that it got so close in 2016, we are sitting at nearly 47% majority and you are regurgitating utter bollocks about whether the people in Scotland are or might be in favour of another referendum?

    Let me further help you out, in their mandate that they presented to the people of Scotland, it specifically states ‘or’ if there is a material change of circumstances, like Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will’. People knew exactly what they voted for Davey boy. That ‘specific’ change has actually occurred.

    We have every right to protect ourselves on the back of an England led polity consumed with anti immigration, anti EU, severe austerity imposed on them by their chosen government. We say guan yersel’s but we’re no joining you. We will choose a different path Davy boy and believe me when I say to you it will ‘never’ be the path that you are so happy to follow along with…ever.

  84. The Proctor Lewis


    Years ago I was at luncheon with a old tory “kingmaker”;

    Poor old Ruth was supposed to be a stop gap, young blood, friendly face chap. A filler if you will.
    Trouble was they couldnt get anyone to replace her that wasn’t clinically insane.

    So Ruth Harrison was left in peace.

  85. Proud Cybernat

    Effing zinger there, Jack!! Dinnae hawd back noo!

  86. Ian

    Fine words but completely destroyed of any real meaning by their actions in hiding the McCrone Report. Hypocrite seems too pleasant a word to use for such on-going deceit and treachery. Forget their words, it’s their actions that count.

    And since oil is still being bandied around as ‘proof’ that Scotland now can’t afford independence since the oil price is so low compared with a few years ago (when conveniently independence would actually have been ok?), the missing bit here seems to be how much oil and gas may remain to be found in around Scotland? The UK is strangely silent on that one, which seems very reminiscent of McCrone.

    Oil and gas are not the be all and end all of Scotland’s economy, but since it keeps getting brought up by the ‘better together’ lot in a very limited way (ie current oil price and only North Sea oil), a look at what reserves may well exist would provide a much more complete view of oil & gas to Scotland and of course to the UK. It would certainly explain why the UK stays so quiet about likely future reserves.

    This from 2014 –

    This from yesterday – (use an adblocker if you’re concerned about helping fund the Herald via advertising revenue)

    The spirit of McCrone seems to be alive and well in Westminster.

  87. Macart


  88. Lochside

    I’m genuinely shocked at the McWhirter article link. He’s back to peddling the same old Unionist lies about Scotland’s dependence on oil.

    Despite admitting we were swindled out of the bulk of it. The sad thing about the last decade is witnessing the willingness of turncoat ‘commentators’ like him scrabbling one way or the other like rats in shite desperately trying to evade a shovel aimed at their verminous skulls.

    One day soon these scabrous swine will be condemned to shameful ignominy and professional obscurity when we finally cast the whole fucking miserable shower of arselickers out into the dark universe of May’s fantasy of ‘global Britain along with their stinking ‘Union’.

  89. schrodingers cat

    Dave says

    1. Does Ms Sturgeon currently believe that a majority of Scots currently want another independence referendum ?

    a majority of folk didnt want an euref, but that isnt how it works

    the tories won an election on a manifesto commitment to hold an euref, and with 35% of the vote, thats what happened

    same for the snp.

    btw, last opinion poll had support for indyref2 at 50.5% in the next 2 years

  90. Steffano

    Sensibledave was fishing down a manhole,a cybernat walked by and and stopped to ask him if he had caught anything.Sensibledave looked up with a twinkle in his eye and said “yes your the ninth”

    ffs guys why waste your time with the thing?From a personal point of view I get great pleasure of skipping buy all his posts and those that find themselves caught on his devious wee hook.

    Lang time lurker btw.

  91. Dr Jim

    @The cat

    The UN charter says every country has the right to self determination and we’re members of the UN so you’d think we’d have a right of representation to those guys given current conditions
    I think if there are other avenues to explore then our lot should bite the bullet and do that before the Tories turn on the real nasty face

    Y’never know!

  92. robin

    Do we have any polls coming out over the weekend?

  93. Mike

    1. Does Ms Sturgeon currently believe that a majority of Scots currently want another independence referendum ?

    She currently believes her party won an election on a manifesto to hold a referendum under specific circumstances that have since materialised.
    Now she feels duty bound to deliver on that manifesto

    2. If she does, what evidence does she have?

    She would have to call for a referendum to find out definitively if Scots want another referendum or not. Its the ONLY way to be sure.
    Is that what you suggest she should do? Or do you think she should just go with her Manifesto mandate instead?

    “What no one seems to be able to answer is “Who speaks for the 55%?”

    The Scottish Government want to give the 55% a chance to speak for themselves in a referendum its the likes of you and the UK Government that’s trying to deny them a chance to tell us.

    “That majority voted to remain part of the UK.”

    Now they’ll get another chance to do the same or not. Their choice.

    “Can anyone point me to a quote where Ms Sturgeon has said she wants to hold another referendum?”

    How about a quote where she states an intent to hold one?


    Yer a gibbering heap of trolling stupidity deluding himself into believing its being clever and windie up.
    Newsflash cretin we will post on here with or without your stupid puerile contributions so yer no actually winding anybody up.
    You’re just giving us dart practice.

  94. Ken500

    (ex?) Liberals, Tories, and Labour supporters vote YES and support another Referendum. It would not be at all surprising that the unionist inadequate ‘politicians’ in Holyrood in the secrecy of the Ballot Box vote YES. The delusional hypocrites.

    Members of the unionist political parties support YES. Even unionist Councillers – Office bearers support YES and want another Referendum. The Unionists are chapping, crapping themselves. That is why all the lying is starting up again. Many now see the unfairness. The majority have voted for it. The lying propaganda which the majority now do not believe. Many now see the unfairness. The frantic, manic mania starting up again. They know they are fighting a losing battle and they are going to lose big time.The Demographics has changed. Many now see the unfairness. Brexit changed it big time.

    The Tories have excelled themselves in bad, wrong decision again. Westminster is now an incoherent clumsy bunch of unionists ‘psycho bastards’, There own description of themselves. The future economy is now totally on a spiral down and they know it.

    This attack will also change things. Give them something to mull over and think about. Truly shocking. Despite the rhetoric. London Centre is now classed as an unsafe place to be. Mental health problems are increasing in the UK and services are being cut. Inadequate services are provided for the increasing demand. The illegal wars, banking fraud/crash and continued tax evasion have traumatised the world.

  95. K1

    Do you seriously think you are making some ‘astute’ point asking everyone to provide you with evidence of Nicola Stugeon ‘wanting’ another referendum?

    I think it’s fairly self evident if we are about to vote for a section 30 order that she has by her actions stated that indeed it is ‘highly likely’ that we will be ‘preparing’ for another referendum. She has also said she’d prefer if TMay and her government wanted to, they could begin the process of actually compromising with regard to Scotland’s position in EU single market et al. They produced a not insubstantial document outlining how a compromise would work. TMay and her government have ignored this completely, it’s on the back of that, that she (NS) was left with no other option but to announce the decision to prepare for us having a choice between end of Brexit negotiations and ratification of 27 EU parliaments. I don’t actually think it’s her ‘preffered’ choice. She has been completely clear about that.

    So it’s nuanced and has substance and doesn’t reduce down tae a wee boy question repeated over and over in a whinny voice ‘where did she say she ‘wanted’ one.’ That just shows you up for the obsfucating petty minded weak debater that you truly are. It’s fucking embarrassing looking at what you type…a moronic level of engaenment.

    So why aren’t you chastising your government over their intransigence with regard to Scotland’s circumstances Davey boy? Where’s your outcry over Westminster’s ‘public’ face saying all the UK has to be included and their ‘public’ face of we’ve triggered A50 without even letting the SG know before going public?

    Every single step of compromise has come from Scotland and what we get back is little nobodies like you sicking up mama may mantras all the live long day. Pathetic.

  96. Dr Jim

    This is just for Mr no friends troll

    Independence means Independence and we’re going to make a success of it!


  97. Mike

    Seems the economic argument is based on Independence only being viable if Oil is priced above $100 a barrel except when the UK becomes Independent from the EU when its $50.

  98. manandboy

    How the times do change, and they are certainly changing now. Ask the elderly – they’re the people who know all about. They are the ‘do you remember when’ generation. I am one of them – well, nearly.
    I don’t remember Mgt Thatcher saying the above, but I do remember her, better than I remember Ted Heath, and much better than I remember Harold McMillan.

    Politics was of little interest to working people back then, unless you were a union rep and/or a communist. Back then, Labour voters hadn’t yet twigged that voting Labour was voting for the Union and for the Ruling class. Times have changed alright, but the kind of people who had a seat on the Gravy Train back then, they haven’t changed much.

  99. Ken500

    Bookies rates going down big time. On another Ref before 2020 and a YES win. Same. Returns lower than ever Much higher last time.

  100. manandboy

    In the years since Thatcher(1979), TV and the Press have become very very important to political parties. And with that, media barons became very powerful. It is reckoned that Rupert Murdoch has played a major role in the election of every British Prime minister for the last forty years. Is it any surprise he was one of Theresa May’s first port of call in September 2016 in New York.

    The Union owes its continuance to the unopposed State Propaganda in the UK and to the part it plays in brainwashing large numbers of Britain’s electorate. In this, the BBC plays the dominant role. Truly successful propaganda leaves the population in complete denial of their brainwashed condition.

  101. Ken500

    That’s what was strange last time. The elderly people voting No. They lived under Thatcher. Many people expected it was them who would vote YES but no, they voted NO. Project fear.The young ones might have wanted to stay in UK/EU for jobs and travelling. They wanted Indy/EU like other progressive countries It was the other way. Confident in their ability. Not going to be pushed around.

    The young ones are so confident now in their ability and will not be held back. A good thing. The difference in Scotland with a competent SNP Gov has totally changed things. Given folk confidence in their own abilities and provided training and better facilities. Looking at better progress all around. A major difference. Giving folk confidence and optimism for the future. Skilled folk make a better living. Instead of constantly being slagged off. There is even a London SNP branch and others elsewhere.

  102. Bill McLean

    yedindyref2 – how uncricket of you to quote facts at Sensible! I’m astonished at your honesty – that is not the British way!

  103. Thepnr

    A Section 30 order will be refused before Brexit discussions are concluded between Westminster and the EU. I’m certain of that, May want’s to show the UK public how much of an “iron lady” she is and there will be no backing down from “now is not the time”.

    Get prepared for that one hitting us because it won’t be from out of the blue. We’ve been told!

    What then?

    No idea to be honest but I’m sure the Scottish government do have a plan. An election in Scotland with an SNP mandate for Independence if elected on a majority certainly seems feasible.

    I think May would gamble on this, so too Nicola Sturgeon, I can’t see that there are many other avenues open though I’m sure too that they know better than I.

  104. Ken500

    Mcwhirter writes anything to sell. Makes an extravagant living at it. The piper plays the tune. No conviction. It’s quite sad really. That people have no conviction in their own ability.

  105. manandboy


    The ToryUKIP Party expects to be in Government for the next 15 to 20 years, by which time the UK will have changed beyond all recognition.
    By projecting the type and timeline of Tory Government policies into the future, it is virtually certain that not only will Democracy have been replaced by a more Presidential /Dictatorial model of governance, but everyday freedoms which we take for granted now, will have all but disappeared.

    What will NOT have disappeared is poverty. Quite the opposite – it will be highly visible everywhere you may care to look. Except that is, where the 1% live, the elite super rich. They however will be invisible. We will not be allowed to see them.

  106. Bill McLean

    Ken500 – agree with you about McWhirter blowing in the wind. Pity! I like his writing but he’s not a patch on the much missed Ian Bell.

  107. Ken500

    Is it not the case that the SNP still have an overall majority in Holyrood, without the Greens. Or is it because Ken McIntosh cannot vote. That is possible. There were reports the SNP have 63 and the opposition 59. Excluding the Greens. If the Greens voted against. Many people can’t stand the way they carry on at local and Gov level. Blaming the SNP for things that the Greens manipulation outcomes have caused. At a local level giving the Unionists their casting vote to waste £Millions on projects the majority do not want and cutting all essential services for struggling vulnerable people. It is a scandal.

  108. Robert J. Sutherland

    Thepnr @ 17:57,

    If you think about it, the Tories have been gambling quite recklessly with the whole UK’s future for quite some time now.

    Cameron thought he had a sure thing with indyref1, then got quite a bad scare towards the end of the campaign. His relief afterwards was palpable.

    Then he launched into the EUref, with all the dire consequences a loss would imply, but thinking he would win that one too by using the same vile tactics. But that bet came unstuck.

    Now his successor is gambling for even higher stakes. As others have already pointed out, expectations of the outcome of the deal with the EU27 are being ratcheted again and again by her regime towards a harder, bleaker outcome. She has sown the wind, and we will reap the whirlwind.

    And now in the midst of all that existing recklessness she adds a gamble on winning a constitutional standoff with Scotland?

    Does she feel lucky? Seems more like desperation to me, gambling addictively for higher and higher stakes hoping for that elusive eventual win.

  109. manandboy


    In 2014, 55%, allegedly, voted for an unseen future which turned out to be a fantasy land painted in lies by Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling. The BBC also had a big brush.

    At the next Referendum, the Scottish electorate must be told the truth of what awaits them should they vote No again.
    Humiliating and painful poverty and degradation.

    The Unionists however won’t be telling them that. More Pie in the Sky is what they’ll be getting from Theresa May.

  110. Reluctant Nationalist

    Jack Collatin, you gave me goosebumps.

  111. Rock


    “Let me see now, Scotland being stuck to Westminster where we are second class citizens of their colony, we can get:”

    The only right we didn’t lose in our 310 years and counting as a colony was the right to pretend that we are “sovereign”.

    Cheer up. Despite everything, unlike the English, we Scots are “sovereign”.

  112. Robert J. Sutherland

    Ken500 @ 18:14:

    Many people can’t stand the way they [the Greens] carry on

    No, it’s just your own personal obsession. =yawn=

    The yes campaign has to be as wide as possible to gain the most traction. That’s so staringly obvious it shouldn’t even need to be mentioned. Wanting to turn it into the narrow hegemony of one political party, as you seem to believe, is merely to validate the “one party state” calumny and invite another loss.

    We need everyone who is willing aboard, period. Everyone.

    Seriously, give it (and us) a break, FGS.

  113. Rock


    “I will give Thatcher and Major the benefit of the doubt and accept they held those values on a personal basis.”

    By that standard, you will need to give the benefit of doubt to the likes of Saint Theresa of England and Wales, Saint Davidson of Scotland, her assistant Dugdale and every other Tory and unionist politician.

  114. DerekM

    LOL is that the script you have been handed Dave,it is not very innovative where is the jam and the shiny beads.

    Listen up Scotland oor Dave and his pals from down south think we should wait until they fix their problems before we fix ours.

    So would that be in the time frame of next century Dave since it has taken your PM 9 months to sign a bit of paper you muppets seem desperate to get signed and voted for,either i have seen sloths move quicker or your PM really really does not want to sign it.

    Ah remember the days Dave when we were told by your pals down south that independence meant no EU no chance in hell, veto doom gloom and disaster black hole be like Greece with invading ET`s the only way to stay in the EU is to vote no.

    Oh and you cant get the pound and the oil is running out anyway.

    Should have let us go in 2014 made a song and dance about it in full British pageantry like only you mad Englishmen can do and become the good guys stole our thunder in one last fuck you Scotland and you know what for our old pals we would have let you.

    I bet that big seat in the UN would have looked even bigger with a Nobel peace prize winner sitting in it for England.

    You try and do an old pal a favour and he tells you to feck off,well see ya old pal.

  115. yesindyref2

    @Bill McLean
    I know, wicked of me. Kind of like having a scrum and putting the ball straight down the middle, the other side collapse in a heap because they weren’t expecting that. A bit like asking Rock to make a positive posting about Independence, or other posters here.

  116. Robert Louis

    Seriously, why do you folks on here willingly ALLOW trolls to divert the discussion, by feeding them. Come on folks, we have a fight to win, so ‘playing games’ with moronic unionist trolls is just plain old vanilla stupid.

    Just ignore them and they go away, but no, some folks on here, think they MUST ‘tackle’ the trolls, to the detriment of the discussion. Wise up FFS, these paid unionist trolls are NOT here to be educated, they are here simply to disrupt the discussion and distract any readers. It is their job.

    People all over the www have got that sussed, it just seems people on here who don’t get it.

  117. Rock


    “A Section 30 order will be refused before Brexit discussions are concluded between Westminster and the EU. I’m certain of that, May want’s to show the UK public how much of an “iron lady” she is and there will be no backing down from “now is not the time”.

    I see you have arrived at a conclusion I had reached 9 days ago:

    “Saint Theresa of England and Wales has no option but to deny permission until after Brexit has been completed, or the Scottish colony is lost.”

  118. Rock


    “What then?

    No idea to be honest but I’m sure the Scottish government do have a plan.”

    Don’t know about the Scottish government, but Robert Peffers does has a plan from his armchair:

    Robert Peffers,

    “All we need do is to go ahead and do what we wish and let them attempt to stop or prevent our exercise of what, under Scots law, is our legal sovereignty and let them take legal action.”

    Good luck with that.

  119. Sensibledave

    Yesindyref 5.00

    Sorry . Not good enough. Show me where MS Sturgeon is demanding a referendum.

    I see all the bluster and obfuscation and talking around the subject. But so far, she has not said she wants to hold a referendum to my knowledge. I might be wrong (unlikely though),but still no one can show me a quote where she says she wants to hold a referendum.

  120. Rock


    “If the Greens voted against.”

    Could Westminster be able to convince them, after yesterday’s attack against the mother of parliaments, that “Now is not the time”?

    What has been the “independence supporting” The National’s reaction to the attack and the suspension of the referendum debate?

  121. heedtracker

    What has been the “independence supporting” The National’s reaction to the attack and the suspension of the referendum debate?

    Hey Rock, you’re an outspoken YESer right, so tell us about your SNP MP, what do you make of her or him, how are they doing in your constituency, maybe even what issues you think your SNP MSP is getting stuck into, if you have an SNP MSP that is.

    Any info would be really interesting Rock, a lot more interesting than you pushing around WoS National readers anyway.

    My SNP is Callum McCaig MP and I have a really funny story when he met my Mum, out canvassing. I signed up my Mum and Dad as SNP members, one is a tory YESer and t’other ex SLab, never again.

    Anyway Rock, tell us about the SNP in your hood.

  122. Clootie

    I prefer the openly biased unionist media to false friends like McWhirter. He appears balanced to draw in readers then switches to the “….proud Scot but” routine.

    His pay cheque conflicts with his whisper for Scotland turning it into a shout for the Uniom.

  123. stewartb


    I commented on an earlier thread on Willie Rennie’s contribution to the first day of the Indyref debate at Holyrood. This was based on what I heard on TV coverage. What I thought I heard was correct.

    This is from the official record of the debate and his speech (See ).

    “I want to create a federal United Kingdom with power that is shared across the country, a written constitution, fair votes and an elected second chamber. SUCH REFORMS ARE ON THE WAY (my emphasis) to making our United Kingdom even stronger. The campaign for independence UNDERMINES THAT CHANCE AND THAT MOMENTUM (my emphasis).”

    How long have Liberals and LibDems been peddling such aspirations? How long do we have to suspend belief until they have the power and influence to deliver on even one of Rennie’s wants? Following a Yes vote in 2014 Scotland would now have or be close to having a written constitution and (if we chose) an elected second chamber – and now be setting a progressive example with the real potential to catalyse change in our nearest neighbour.

    Rennie went on to argue the positive case for the UK and seemed to believe the following remark was appropriate to include: “… It is about the compassion that has built the second-biggest aid budget in the world—SNP members do not like that.” Despicable, cheap, gutter political rhetoric!

  124. Bob Mack


    Err what do you think has been happening at Holyrood for most of Wednesday?

    Clue. It is about looking for a referendum.

    So Dave, passing the legislation to seek a referendum is now no proof you want a referendum, but wanting a referendum is a referendum bluff hoping you don’t get a referendum.

    Davey boy ,you getting cabin fever? You related to Kezia Dug dale perchance?

  125. stu mac


    With all this reminiscence on Thatcher, it’s interesting to recall that one big reason why her government got away with so much damaging policy was that the labour party of the time spent most of the 80s and early 90s in a kind of civil war. History they say repeats itself first as tragedy then as farce. Though perhaps in this case both at once since both then and now it was/is a tragedy that their infighting allowed/allows the Tories to get away with murder while that infighting itself could be seen as farcical if it wasn’t so serious.

  126. manandboy

    By what right under law, is any part of the UK outside Scotland, free to interfere in a Scottish referendum. If Mrs May has a legal right to set aside the will of the Scottish people in this matter, then let us see it, in writing.

  127. heedtracker

    Clootie says:
    23 March, 2017 at 6:59 pm
    I prefer the openly biased unionist media to false friends like McWhirter.

    He’s got to pay the rent like everyone else. Its his tone, all of it is maybe’s aye, maybe’s naw but underlying it is very very NO.

    If he was able to, he might or could flip into a pro Scotland indy mode, discussing big issues like Scots economic devo potential and how Scotland’s neighbours all thrive, with much less than Scotland has to offer. Instead, he’s got to think up even more creepy ways to insult Alex Salmond, existentially.

    But that’s not going to put food on the MacWhirter table, or would it? Lesley Riddoch’s been BBC Scotland black balled, probably as a clear warning to any others even thinking about it.

  128. K1

    Telt ye…weak petty minded obsfucating nobody, wee boy mentality mama may suckler on the teat of policies designed tae ravage his fellow humans…he’s got nuthin’ of any value tae contribute, we aw know it and his last wee pathetic quip showed it in spades.

    Whilst ah completely agree he’s no worth the bother, on some days it good tae hone yer skills out debating Davey boy types…he’s just a pencil sharpener when it come right down tae it. His blade is blunt right enough, nonethess if ye press in a little deeper ye can get yer nib fairly pointed, enough tae write him aff the thread altogether. Job done.

  129. heedtracker

    stu mac says:
    23 March, 2017 at 7:18 pm

    If you were around at the time, you could sit with your tory friends and watch them laugh at Tony Benn on telly, all three channels, and how he was such an extreme mad lefty and certainly a tory plant.

    It was kind of hard to disagree too, if you were there and watching likes of Tony Benn go wildly left, night after night on BBC 6 and 9 o’clock news. Its all very reminiscent of Nigel Farage blanket BBC coverage today too.

  130. Robert J. Sutherland

    Robert Louis 6:38,

    I agree, RL. I’ve been guilty of it in a small way myself, and duly stand admonished. Stu’s article is great stuff and highly relevant for the “virtual coup” that the Unionists are attempting to perpetrate upon us now, if we let them. Let’s stick to that and not get diverted by self-important trolls’ trivial personal agendas.

    Jeez, the referenced article tells us that once again Scotland’s a player on the international scene, not anyone’s pawn.

    Due to Nicola & Co.’s efforts. Let’s celebrate that, and not let the chance slip away this time.

  131. Sensibledave


    .. after all of this time k1, do you think your attempted insults worry me? Really?

    Obfuscating? I tell you the obfuscatory in chief – ms Sturgeon! She has got so many here wound up about being denied the opportunity to vote in referendum – that she hasn’t asked for!

    Think people, think!

    I do not “know” what is going on but ms Sturgeon hasn’t asked and ma may hasn’t said no. Agreed? So we have to try and guess what they are both up to. Will ms may wait for the vote in holyrood and then say yes – to a referendum in 3 months time? What would ms sturgeon do then? Will ms sturgeon use the mandate and ask for a referendum on a specific date – or will she bottle it and say she will decide on a date (i.e. Kick it into the long grass for the time being and hope some future event happens that allows her to escape).

    I note that still no one has produced a quote wher ms sturgeon is demanding a referendum.

  132. heedtracker

    I note that still no one has produced a quote wher ms sturgeon is demanding a referendum.

    Sensible its going through Holyrood now, vote next Tues, wait til the biggies work out hard Brexit, away we go, is what I heard sensible.

    What channels are you tuned into?

  133. Al Dossaru

    Love this website – as always.

    But why, oh why do even the seasoned posters still insist on engaging with the known trolls?

    Simple response – either just “ignore” or if you wish to be antagonistic “nice post, troll” and move on. Tonight is the quickest I ever read a thread on here – ignore the trolls. Period!

  134. harry mcaye

    Ken500 – I placed a large bet on Yes at 6/1 late on in 2013. Gave me added incentive to do all I could. Knew it would either be the best day of my life by a mile or the opposite.

  135. manandboy

    Meanwhile, those 50 Russians in London whom Russian police are very keen to have extradited back to Russia to face criminal charges, will be a little relieved, knowing that the publication of their names has made no difference to the protection they receive under Mrs May.

    As Home Secretary during the Cameron Government, Theresa May will almost certainly have presided over the decision to allow many on the list to stay. But how can she reconcile her present position re EU nationals staying in the UK with her treatment of her very wealthy Russian immigrants?

  136. Rock


    I take it that you and the likes of you have not been impressed by the “independence supporting” The National’s reaction to the attack and the suspension of the referendum debate?

    Has it joined in on the attacks against SNP MSP Cunningham?

    Or has it supported her like any decent “independence supporting” paper would?

    If it is shamed into supporting her tomorrow, I will claim the credit.

  137. robertknight

    For the likes of Kez, this debate has nothing to do with preserving the Union and everything to do with preserving Scotland as a potential source of votes/cash for the UK Labour Party.

  138. yesindyref2

    @Sensibledave “Sorry . Not good enough. Show me where MS Sturgeon is demanding a referendum.

    Do your own homework son, I kindly gave you the link for the SNP website which has all you need for your project.

  139. Wee Alex

    Tactically it’s a bad decision to leave it till Brexit announcement.

    If the FTSE and pound goes belly up, it will be blamed on Section 30, not the formal Brexit.

    Anyway am looking forward to 29th

  140. yesindyref2

    Good grief, it’s the Chuckle Brothers!

  141. shiregirl

    Hello all (sensibledave – you are a regular and I include you also 🙂 )

    TV off since yesterday as I find myself wondering what this is all about. I think I caught something on the radio about a school in Syria being bombed and many killed – I find the lack of interest so unjust. A life is a life, surely, but when 5 killed in London it is everywhere….the outpouring of grief.Don’t get me wrong, these people were complete innocents and something awful happened yesterday but I feel the reporting and mass grieving a bit much – I personally find it reminiscent of the death of Diana in ’97…. ‘Pray for London’ everywhere. What about those in Syria? They were innocent too.

    I also have to say, I don’t want to bum the Rev up (no, honestly 😉 ) but I find some of the shocking personal comments on twitter beyond belief. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but it appears this is just an excuse to have a go. I came off twitter a while back as the trolling was beyond a joke, however I check in as a reader to keep up to date. Sorely tempted to rejoin for the cause but would have 0 followers and risk a ban! Keep it going Stu. You are doing just dandy.

  142. Lenny Hartley

    Heedtracker re Mc Whirter, did u seen him getting interviewed by toodlethenoo after the FM announced a new Indy ref, going on about how Salmond had lied about oil revenues when in fact the White Paper estimated less revenues than some UK Government Depts and then ” and he also promised a renewables boom which has never materialised” what a tube how the f:)&k can Mr Salmond be critisised for something not happening which he has no control over.

  143. Calum

    Great and useful find, thank you.

  144. K1

    ‘So we have to try and guess what they are both up to’

    No ‘we’ don’t. While you’re guessing, for no other reason I presume other than you have no other interests in your own community or in any other aspects of your local politics. Else there is actually no other conceivable reason that you come onto the number one political site on Scotland’s independence as a Tory Englander wi apparently no horse in the race Davey boy?

    My insults as you refer to them are actually accurate and totally apt descriptions of your overall character and input on these threads. Treat them as insults if ye like Davey boy. You can’t debate, you are a whinny wee boy wi an over inflated sense of your own relevance on this site. You are a condescending, patronising obsfucating Tory with a clear inability to hold a nuanced debate on any subject at hand. Instead ‘you’ belittle, denigrate and generally conduct yourself in an over bearing and utterly disrespectful manner any time you appear btl driven by a constant emotional neediness writ large by your oft repeated ‘bating’ of others in an attempt to ‘appear’ knowledgeable.

    Which, when it comes to the subject of Scotland and it’s seeking of self determination you are woefully lacking in any capacity to understand our differing attitudes and outlook from your own polity on this matter.

    You merely regurgitate and mimic mainstream BBC and other leading UK newspaper’s ‘take’ and ‘slant’ on just about every conceivable matter when it comes to Scotland’s constitutional debate.

    You are nothing more than a wee nobody trying to ‘appear’ as a ‘somebody’ and if your contribution to these threads is anything to go by in terms of your generally pompous and condescending manner I’m almost certain this is reflected in your actual life out with these threads.

    We’re fighting for something here Davey boy. It is a principled stance, I would proffer a noble goal. We wish to run our own affairs and come out from beneath the yoke of a country who we are outnumbered by virtue of a system of voting that perpetually leaves us at the mercy of our larger neighbours interests, which are not ours. We have every right to pursue our aims through peaceful and democratic processes and we have achieved much in these past few years. We will achieve our aims.

    Your insistent ridiculous ‘where does it say she wants a referendum’ is to be treated with the deserved contempt it elicits. You are a debaser of debate, how could you not be? You are the perfect reflection of that which you have consumed. You merely come onto to Wings to sick up what is stuck in yer craw. Spluttering immature rhetoric written ‘for’ you by others ‘like you’.

  145. Jack Collatin

    Sources close to Project Fear 2 confirm that sensibledave is in fact a hub of techies being paid thousands in cash by Better Together Dependentists from a secret undeclared War Chest amassed by a right wing millionaires’club, tasked with clogging up pro Self Determination sites with pointless drivel. In WoS parlance, ‘the Arsehole Ultimatum.’
    Scroll past this load of toss is my informed advice.
    You may as well shout at the stars as engage. There is no one behind these offerings to debate with. Indeed there is no substance to any of fictional post.

  146. Liz g

    K1 @ 8.32
    Is that a posh way of sayin yer jist a sweetie wife?

  147. CameronB Brodie

    Having attempted to analysis British nationalism and Yoons in general, through post-modern critical social theory guided by a Zen rational, I find that my conclusions are best expressed through the media of SpongeBob Squarepants and ‘gangsta rap’.

    I hope you’ll find I’ve captures the essence of London’s present-day ‘rational paternalism’ towards Scotland.

    “This is for your own good.”

    Spongebob – DoodleBob (Goblins from Mars Trap Remix)

    P.S. “He makes me sick.” 😉

  148. K1

    Well…it wis the long winded ‘translation’ of ‘sweetie wife’…he’s no fae these pairts, um nuthin if no mannered Liz 😉

  149. Ken500

    Some folk would never, ever gamble except on a charity raffle occasionally but put money on the YES 2014 because they believed in Independence. Often the bookies would not take the bet or would only allow small amounts. The bookies has to keep phoning to get odds and agreement for relative smaller sums. They had put on a few bets that would have won a bit if YES won because of the higher rates.

    In the last week when it looked the Polls had swung to YES. Bad analysis or deliberate? The lying VOW. The bookie were accepting any amounts put on to YES. People were putting on money because it looked like a YES in any case. People lost all the money. The Bookie had obviously been tipped of by sources, it was a NO. They already knew. Insider dealing. They started paying out.

    They knew it was a NO so they started to accepted any amounts for YES. Fleecing people lost all their stake. That is why there could be a connect for bad deliberate Polling. So people put bets on influence by the Polls or predictions and lose their money. In the last week iwhen the Polls when th supposed to have turn. A con job.

  150. Bob Mack

    Many of you are of course right. I shall omit Sensible Dave from future reply.

    What he needs ideally is an echo chamber where the only replies he will hear are his own. That seems to suit him more than rational discussion.

  151. schrodingers cat

    if treeza refuses section 30………

    it has been proposed to dissolve holyrood and hold an election. I cant see what other option there is.

    a manifesto of declaring UDI and holding a referendum on scotland rejoining the uk

    if the greens supported this (solidarityrise and ssp now gone)

    question, what would be the required outome
    50.5% of constitueny vote? a majority of msp? wiping out the unionists?

  152. Robert J. Sutherland


    Though we really do need to move on now, I did enjoy your righteous condemnation there, especially the “You are a debaser of debate” line. Aaaah. Very satisfying, even if only by proxy. =grin=

  153. schrodingers cat

    i’m trying to think what are the best options, eg, holding a non binding indyref2, where potentially the unionists dont take part, or another holyrood election on a manifesto declaring udi and a ref to join the uk straight after?

    you can discuss scotlands peoples ancient and retained soveriegnty or argue with dave about whether we have a mandate to hold indyref2, but if treeza replies next wed…… no

    what then?

    people read these forums, and i’m sure that the snp and others use it to gauge public opinion, why wouldnt they?

  154. schrodingers cat

    also,having a plan which relies on outside intervention by the eu and or the un, or any country, is a non starter, nice if it happens, but we should plan to do this by ourselves

  155. Ken500

    Re McWhirter. Some folk have actually see him. He is quite well turn out and is obviously worth a bit of money. They felt like saying something but didn’t bother. Some of them journo would claimed it was harrassment or something for effect. To suit their purpose. He looks quite arrogant full of his own importance. Thinks he is something special. Full of himself. If you see them (jornos) they all look like that. Swan around like they think they are celebrities.

    The TV ones, the interviewers, wear a lot of make-up for the cameras. So they look quite weird. Like being done up in drag. But with fancy suits on. All done up. It looks comical. They swan around in it even off camera.

    A few of them don’t. The Times one in Glasgow who died, Angus McKay? Used to wander about like a bit of a scruff. Hurray up the road like mad. Never a look left or right. With a drink in? He walked very fast. A Tory?

    McWhirter writes articles which contradict what he writes. One day he writes something and three days later there is another article contradicting what he said, Then three days later there is another one saying the complete opposite. It becomes like he is only doing it for the money. Without any conviction. How can someone chop and change their opinion so quickly over such a short time. It is not credible, but just writing articles to sell for the money. Changing the article and opinion from different viewpoint to get it published. People have to make a living – but like that? About something so important.

  156. yesindyref2

    Sad thing is you still see Unionists posting “Sturgeon is bluffing, she doesn’t want a referendum”, you hear political pundits saying it, and even articles. They all know it’s nonsense but it seems to be a group hug thing, they upvote each other, nod their heads knowingly. And that May will force “her” to have it after Brexit.

    Somewhere in some newsroom in London there’s some poor sod actually believes it and all the rest of them are laughing their heads off at him or her “so innocent, so naive”.

    Sad but true.

    My guess is sensibledave is that person.

  157. schrodingers cat

    reading robert peffers, scotlands people are soveriegn and have a legal right to decide their future, and ignoring dave, the scottish government has a cast iron mandate from the electorate to hold indyref2.
    if next week treeza says no, does anyone think the un or the eu will intervene?

  158. ian m

    Wind up Dave

    Nicola has not demanded a referendum but she is taking all the correct steps to make one happen.
    The ticky tacky points you are trying to make were covered in previous threads so please try and keep up

  159. Auld Rock

    As I see it:-

    1. We have the UN Right of a Nation to self deternmination.
    2. We’ve got 96% of MP’s.
    3. We got 46% of popular vote in the Scottish Elections.

    So why not grab the bottle and go for UDI we are sure to get UN support.

    Auld Rock

  160. mike d

    I love the posts on this site . informative,articulate,amusing. But i always scroll past what’s his name???? Oh yoonatic dave.

  161. Clootie


    Pity you take the quote out of the post context – I.e. Even if it was true it changes nothing.
    Try reading before typing!

  162. Hoss Mackintosh

    @Bob Mack
    At 2.17 pm

    “Dave, you want respect but give none. I read your posts sometimes and what shines through is arrogance. Your posts are a microcosm of what we see in Parliament every day . That is why we want to leave.”

    Well said Bob.

    I don’t read sensibledave’s comments anymore.

    His arrogance is that he is right and everyone else here is wrong. It is the same arrogance that has led to Brexit view that England is better than everyone else in Europe and they can go and build a second Empire.

    That arrogance is going to be very sorely exposed over the next two years when England finds out it has very few friends left in Europe and across the world.

    When the Brexit experiment fails that is when we will have our independence vote. Either before or after Brexit – it does not matter to me as it will be a total disaster either way.

    Then we will win our Independence and become a sovereign country again.

    A normal North European country openly welcomed in Europe and taking its proper place in the World.

  163. yesindyref2

    OT – Herald
    I forgot to post earlier there’s a much better article from Tom Gordon “Holyrood urges unity in face of terror threat and possible backlash” went up at tea-time. It’s what he should have written in the first place, reflecting the tone of the Holyrood he was at in person.

    Perhaps someone from the Herald read my comment here.

  164. Phronesis

    Bad politics, bad economics – a useful summing up of the Brexit journey.

    ‘The oddity of a Brexit Odyssey’

    ‘…There is, for example, a clear narrative shift from the pre-referendum Treasury Budget Report, March 2016. In the Report, on the basis that EU members are Britain’s most proximate trading partners, and comprise 44% of its exports, membership of the EU was positioned as a powerful force encouraging a more open, cosmopolitan British trading economy. However, the Leave campaign and the post-referendum government have repositioned EU membership as a constraint on a globally progressive open Britain (free to now flourish in a ‘post-geography trading world’). Again, this is odd (and for more than the obvious reason that Britain looks set to create barriers to trade with its nearest neighbours, whilst seeking to develop trade treaties – a notoriously contingent and protracted process – with far flung nations). It is odd because it is an argument ostensibly focused on economics but dominated by other political concerns. The argument from the Right of the Conservatives was dominated by old concerns with the sovereignty implications of the European Commission’s Social Europe agenda of integration, rather than the realities of the Single Market…

    Ultimately, British post-referendum policy… creates uncertainty and dislocation for multinationals and influential corporations of all kinds (risking investment projects, affecting profits via currency instability, threatening inflationary pressures on costs that affect pricing, and creating the need for decisions firms would rather avoid). Brexit is a short-term headache for ‘capital’ and a long-term threat to some fractions within it. It seems like a defeat, a defeat articulated and orchestrated by a Right wing party that nominally represents ‘capital’. Again, this is odd. It is less odd when one considers that the referendum was a response to nationalist populism by a Conservative government aiming to undercut its own (anti-Social Europe) Right wing, as well as the electoral threat it perceived from UKIP. The leadership simply did not believe they could lose. It is also less odd when one considers the campaign was partly bankrolled by a hedge fund billionaire who made millions shorting the markets…

    Moreover, these 3 are ultimately answerable to the Treasury and the Chancellor, who must incorporate any new institutional arrangements into Britain’s emerging economic structure. Furthermore, all 3 must come to terms with the Home Secretary, who controls immigration policy (and so is where any special pleading regarding treatment of groups heavily dependent on foreign labour must take place — notably for the finance sector, the health service, and agriculture). The situation is, therefore, already one involving 5 different groupings, each with their own concerns and personnel. The simple mantra that ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is already about as meaningful as any stanza from the Jabberwocky…Brexit ,the interminable journey to nowhere’

  165. feel_loon

    Hi Guys

    i Had a few notifications from my linkedin app so went on for a nosey .
    Feck me
    Really shocked ,,some guy posted article about how he was YES now a NO
    comments unbelievable ,you would have a full house in scare story bingo well inside the jacker .

    Guy saying england already bailed out scotland loads of times and quotes BoS and RBS
    quite apart from the fact that he thinks that its ENGLAND that bailed the banks out is opposite his union argument .
    But to hold the city of london as some sort of beacon of light when every person in the land has been lumbered with the aftermath of their greed is quite incredible
    and these guys are quite successful so must have a modicum of intelligence !!!!

    wish i hadn’t gone on now ..raging

    i am always reminded of the quote in the film The Big Short from mark baum “there will be a bailout and then they will blame poor people and immigrints ”

    never truer word said

  166. heedtracker

    Lenny Hartley says:
    23 March, 2017 at 8:14 pm
    Heedtracker re Mc Whirter, did u seen him getting interviewed by toodlethenoo after the FM announced a new Indy ref,

    I did not but its easy to picture them hard at work, scorched earth Scottish democracy, BBC Scotland style. Never watch anything BBC Scotland much at all, since 2014. Its got so barking mad anti everything non tory Scotland, its boring as feck. As is most of the BBC now. You can judge how awful the whole shebang is by the non existent political satire it produces, or BBC’s case, none at all.

    Worst attack propaganda on Scottish democracy is always BBC Scotland 6 am radio news, kicking off an endless monstering of everything SNP and Holyrood. But its owned and run by unionist who earn a lot of money and will take yours too, it makes no odds to them, who pays the piper. Money’s money.

    Ask all new and exciting Pacific Quay boss Donalda Mac, who said she would win back trust in BBC Scotland, by making the last utterly ferocious unionist boss look like Walter Cronkite. The female of the unionist beeb ligger, is far more deadly than the male.

  167. Robert Peffers

    @Alan says: 23 March, 2017 at 1:19 pm:

    “The Scottish political elite in the early 1700s decided Scotland would join the union. For some of them joining served their own interests very well.”

    Historically, Alan, it was much, much more than that. Before 1707 the Kingdom of England parliament had run up massive National debts. This was due to the English, “Navigation Acts” :-

    It had involved England in several European wars and also contributed to the American Wars of Independence.

    These acts restricted trade with English colonies and dominions to being carried out by ships of the English Mercantle Marine or, if non-Englanders wished to carry out such trade with their own ships, they had to do so with an English crew. Be aware in these cases the, “Merchant”, in, “Mercantile Marine”, skippered the ship. These acts were applied to Scotland even while the Monarch of Scots was also the Monarch of England.

    So the London Scot, William Paterson, instigated a subscription scheme to raise money from those rich English merchants to bail out the English Crown/Parliament. This scheme led to the Royal Charter that began the Bank of England.

    It is historic fact that the same William Paterson was in the employ of Sir Robert Harley, who was also the English Parliament’s Spy Master. Also in Harleys employ was Denial Defoe the English author and undercover agent.

    This was the scene in pre-Treaty of Union. Paterson had been operating in Scotland setting up the Darien Expedition. The idea was supposed to be that as the English Navigation Acts were making trade difficult for Scotland that Darien would provide the Scots with their own colony on the isthmus between north and south America.

    It would provide an overland link that bypassed ships going, “Round The Horn”, (the most dangerous place on Earth for shipping). It would thus cost the English dear to have their cargos taken overland on their way to the Americas. The English, and now after they had made peace, the Dutch pledged to put up between them 50% of the Darien Expedition costs. Only to pull out of the arrangement at the last moment and thus consigned the expedition to be underfunded but, as ships, crews and some stores were already contracted the Scots could not pull out.

    It was this, together with the English Crown’s orders to the Royal Navy NOT to aid the expedition and the English army, already at Darien, not to aid the Scots expedition that contributed greatly to the expedition’s failure.

    Now be aware that Scotland was not bankrupted by Darien. Only the rich landowners/Parliamentarians were so affected. Scotland in 1706/7 had little or no National debts.

    So both William Paterson and the English spy Defoe were operating in Scotland pre-Treaty of Union.

    The letters sent by Defoe reporting back to Harley still exist in the English Achieves. Not only that but after bankrupting the wealthy landowner/parliamentarians there were English Troops massed at the Scottish borders and an English fleet standing off the Firth of Forth.

    This is all verifiable historic fact and the documented evidence still exists today. Never trust the history they taught you at school for the Westminster Establishment’s lies and intransigence have been with us since Roman Times.

    There is absolutely no doubts that the Treaty of Union was, even in 1707, illegal under Scottish, English and international law and it is still illegal today.

    The, “Paircel o Rogues”, were in fact, in most cases, more victims than perpetrators.

  168. ScottishPsyche

    Today my frail 86 year old mother told me she would vote SNP first at the council elections.

    She was Labour supporter all her life and believed they stood up for people like her. I have memories of her dragging us to polling places to vote in rain, hail or shine when it seemed there were elections every 5 minutes in the 1960s and 1970s. She voted No in 2014 and after, she argued she had done the right thing. It caused a bit of friction but, FGS, she is my mother it was never going to be anything other than agree to disagree!

    She is thrawn and we have had some feisty and dispiriting discussions but I had a tear in my eye when she told me. Wait till I try to explain to her that she should mark a vote for a Tory, even if they are in last place! I’m hoping a Yes vote is next.

  169. Ken500

    McWhirter – fake news. McWhirter spouts the line about Oil revenues Alex Salmond lying etc. McW Being presented as an expert. Alex is an expert on the economy, especially the Oil sector. 1st class honour degree in economics from St Andrews University. He was already in the National Party. He joined at 18. It was when he was an Oil economist at the Bsnk of Scotland analysing the data that he didcovered the value of the Oil sector and how much vast amounts was being produced. When Thatcher and the unionists knowingly were downplay it’s worth. (Deja Vu). Alex Salmond knew the truth but when he tried to tell folk no one believed him. That is when he went into Politics in the North East where the sector was based. To get the truth out?

    The Tories – Osbourne destroyed the Oil sector by high Tory taxes when the price had fallen. The Oil companies cut production. 6 jobs Osbourne lost 120,000 Oil jobs in Scotland. Scotland could have had very low unemployment. The sector would have still been producing, if the tax rate had been taken down sooner. Production With less value but so many jobs would not have been lost. The Oil sector is like a giant furnace once it is slowed down it takes a while to get it back up.

    Anyone in business or in the Oil industry knows the affect the tax rate had in relationship to the price. When the price is low the tax should be lower. When the price is higher the tax should be higher. To keep jobs and production. It is a basic economic requirements, The price of a product in relationship to the cost of production in relationship to the tax. That is why in most industries/companies in the world, the Corporation tax is 20%. A fifth of the value and the cost of production. Firms usually make between 10/20% profit and pay 20% Corporation tax on profits. Then have the expense of cost of production. Some sectors make more. Furniture is said to make more profits. 50% it depends on the quality etc. They need capital in reserve for manufacturing, or an overdraft facilities (interest charges) for cash flow. There have to make outlays before the product can be produced and sold. Main retailers make most of their profits at Christmas 70% which sustain them throughout the year.

    None of these journalist or commentators, i.e. supposed to be experts ever mention the tax regime in relationship to the price. They could find out with a bit of research on the Gov website etc. They are not experts. It is better if the Oil price is not to high for the economy. It keeps other costs down.

    In an Independent Scotland with Alex Salmond in power. The first thing he would have done was take down the tax as the price fell. To save thousands of jobs and preserve the industry. It is better to move to other cheaper renewable fuel but until,it is done. It is better to have the Oil industry instead of importing Oil & Gas that is needed, in the meantime. Electric cars are 4 times cheaper to run. Scotland meets its emission targets.

    The train service should be improved to cut journey times which are higher in Scotland because of years of lack of investment and the oil revenues going south. The multimillionaire Tory MSP for the NE says the Oil sector does not need any help? What planet are they on.

    Is McWhirter self employed, paying his full share of taxes. The reporters who are self employed off set their taxes by becoming.companies to pay less tax.

  170. Robert Peffers

    @Luigi says: 23 March, 2017 at 1:26 pm:

    “Ach just let the yoons keep moving the goal posts. We are almost at the corner of the pitch already, where there is nowhere left for then to go.”

    Yer kiddin, Luigi.

    The Westminster liars will continue moving the goalposts up the side-lines until they get to the Inglis Technical Area. Then have their Manager, Assistant Manager, the guy wi the black bag and the Inglis Ball boys in goal wi the Inglis keeper, oan the hauf wey line.

    Ye canna trust the Westminster Establishment – jings! The factions in the Westminster Establishment dinna even trust each ither.

  171. Wull

    heedtracker says:
    23 March, 2017 at 12:31 pm
    Cant argue with any of that, except…if Scotland cant claim devo as a right of nationhood in this union, what’s Holyrood devo so far based on, red and blue tory niceness?

    Certainly not based on ‘Tory niceness’ as heedtracker jokes. What it was based on was nothing at all to do with the Tories – ‘nice’ or otherwise – who consistently opposed Scottish devolution throughout the 1990s, until it was forced upon them.

    The original devolution settlement was essentially a Labour plan through and through, albeit aided and abetted by a stitch-up with the Lib Dems. Its aim was to puncture the SNP below the water line once and for all, and sink their ship. The intended result was to finish off any and every movement towards independence – so Labour thought – for good.

    They therefore presented the original version of devolution as ‘the settled will of the Scottish people’. That is, Labour pretended it had ‘settled’ the Scottish people’s ‘will’ once and for all, locking it into an arrangement that would remain static, and moribund, for ever.

    As if a people’s ‘will’, like that of an individual person, does not develop, grow, mature, or change, with the passage of time.

    So, it was originally a Labour wheeze to kill off Scottish nationalism in general, and the SNP in particular. You could say that that is what the devolved Holyrood was based on.

    However, it was also sincere, in other respects. Labour Scots like John Smith and Donald Dewar, whatever one may think of them, did know Scotland was different from England, and did have a pride in being Scottish.

    It now looks as if that ‘wheeze element’ in the original plan has backfired spectacularly. After less than twenty years the Party that looks to be dead in the water is not the SNP, but Labour.

    In 1999 no one would have dreamed of such an outcome. Even a backfiring nuclear submarine, it would have been thought, could never wipe out Labour in its impregnable Scottish heartlands. But that is what has happened. It is not just that the SNP have played a blinder – which they have – but that there is a momentum out there which goes well beyond any one Party, or politician.

    So, what about the Tories?

    They reluctantly joined the parliament they so much despised and, surprisingly, it has proved to be their life-line. The very dab – the one thing that caused them to survive in a Scotland that was very close to seeing the back of them altogether.

    Ironically, the safeguards which Labour built into the devolution settlement in order to prevent the SNP from ever achieving power at Holyrood not only failed in that precise purpose … they actually saved the Tory Party in Scotland from total extinction.

    Without the Scottish parliament, and proportional representation, the Tories would never have survived at all north of the border.

    With regard to the statements of Thatcher and Major quoted in the Wings article, I see no reason to suppose that they were insincere. It seems to me useless, counter-productive to the cause of independence, and simply mistaken to pretend that they did not mean what they said.

    The difference between that older generation of Tory leaders and today is the appalling ignorance of the current crop of Brit-fanatics who masquerade as a responsible British government.

    By comparison, even Thatcher and Major still knew some of the basics of British history, and had a reasonable understanding of what the UK is, and how it had come about. That cannot be said for Mrs May and her Cabinet Ministers. Hell-bent on Brexit, they seem to be living in a fantasy world, where their own fictional version of the UK is mistaken for reality.

    The so-called ‘4-Nation Union’, so beloved of Mrs May’s dull rhetoric, does not exist. It never has done. What is it supposed to mean?

    I was going to say ‘of Mrs May’s fabrication’ but changed it to ‘dull rhetoric’, for she is not alone in this. May is only borrowing from a battery of civil servants and other historically- or deliberately-ignorant people who have invented this latest ‘wheeze’.

    Older Tories at least had some clue about the constitutional make-up of the ‘country’ – or land-mass – they were governing. This present lot think they can make that reality up as they go along.

    Maybe that makes them successors of Blair, who was a great constitutional tinkerer but not much of a constitutional thinker. Blair and his pals filled the constitutional void with various wheezes, the main aims of which were self-serving, Party-political gain. Even Holyrood was initiated in that spirit, even if that was not the whole story.

    Mrs May’s model for her ‘4-nation union’, I suppose, is Wales. That is, at least, her fundamentally English version of Wales, and of Welsh history.

    That Wales which – legally speaking (i.e. within the framework of English law) – was officially incorporated and made subservient to the English crown, by 16th Century statute.

    She probably thinks the Union with Scotland is the same kind of thing. And, perhaps with more justification, she may think of Northern Ireland in the same way.

    Someone should ask her about these various so-called ‘unions’, and whether there are any differences between them, or nuances to bear in mind. What does her ‘4-nation union’ actually mean? Even legally speaking …

    OK – we know that no one will ever ‘pop’ such questions … and if they did, she will just avoid answering them. Which is a pity, since this famous ‘union’ is supposed to be such a great – and even mightily ‘successful’ – love affair.

    Mrs May seems to be completely (or perhaps willfully) ignorant of the fact that the only ‘Union’ which brought the UK into existence, and on which it is based, is that of 1707. The other bits and pieces of the present UK – not just entities like the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, but Northern Ireland and even Wales – are not its basis. Without the 1707 union there would be no such thing as the UK.

    When Scotland goes, as it surely will, the UK is a busted flush. The recently invented 4-nation Union is a wheeze intended not only to ignore and camouflage that fact, but to obliterate it.

    The 4-nation union is not just a wheeze, however. It is far more dangerous than that, for the Executive is promoting in order to subvert one of the few constitutional pillars of the UK. It seeks to ignore and surreptitiously abolish the Treaty of Union, replacing the true narrative (and meaning) of that event with a fictitious myth of English conquest.

    This myth, a fiction which much of Britain secretly adhered to although it had no basis in law, or in fact, is to lie at the heart of Brexit Britain. This Brexit Britian will pretend to be the old UK of pre-1972, pre-EU days. In fact, however, this reinvented UK will be a new political reality, the likes of which we have never seen before. Brave New World – Orwell’s 1984 – here we come, scuttling down the helter-skelter towards you!

    In the 4-nation union of Mrs May, Scotland is the new Wales. Northern Ireland was never anything more than that anyway. The problem was neither of these; it was always Scotland.

    Not, I hasten to add lest I offend my Welsh friends, the true Wales of Welsh history, but the Wales of English history. That is what we are to become. The Wales that was turned into an English principality, the Wales that ws forcibly subjected to the English crown by Edward I in the 13th Century, the Wales that was incorporated (as a mere legal formality) into the English Empire in the 16th.

    In the 4-nation union that has just been invented, what actually happened in 1707 was no longer a Treaty between Scotland and England – for Treaties can be revoked, and we can’t have any of that – but the final accomplishment of Edward I’s designs. Precisely four hundred years after his death (in 1307) Edward mysteriously rose from his grave, and finally finished Scotland off. In 1707, so it is thought (ignoring the facts of the matter), the job that he had started (basically, the abolition of the Kingdom of Scotland) was completed.

    What about the actual Treaty? Does it matter?

    ‘No, of course not – Well, OK, if necessary, we’ll just get rid of it, and invent another one (says the naive Mr. Mundell) – But, honestly chaps, there was no Treaty – not in reality, I mean – there couldn’t have been, because Treaties are between equals … And insofar as there was one, well, everyone knows it was just a pretendy kind of thing. You have to admit, that’s all it has ever been … a formality, nothing substantial. That’s why England always ignored it, right from the start … No, no – sorry about it, but you were conquered … . Everybody knows that (we’ve been telling them all about it for the past 300 years, and even these johnny foreigners have understood it, we made sure of that … ) We won, and you lost, and that’s it, … So just forget about all that ‘historical reality’ stuff, and pull together … There’s a good chap, now … You pull the oars, we’ll give the orders. …’

    ‘And Northern Ireland – well, that too. You know all of Ireland is really England’s, and has been since at least the time of Henry II (that’s the 12th Century, in case you don’t know). OK, so these violent people in the South managed to form their Republic in the 1920s and we won’t claim it back, but the people in the North are still loyal, as everyone should be. For all of our sakes …

    ‘Didn’t you see how depressed that poor Tory Minister-in-the-Welsh-Office was after his quick visit to Edinburgh the other day, when the atmosphere there reminded him of Dublin? As if he was in a foreign country? Wouldn’t it be terrible for you Jocks if somewhere as important to us as Edinburgh stopped being a British city, and became something as awful and horrible as Dublin?’

    If the ‘4-nation union’ is a wheeze so too, in its own way, was the so-called ‘devolution settlement’ invented by Labour and inaugurated in 1999. This was to be Scotland’s ‘parliament’, but not its ‘government’. (It was only when the SNP came to power in 2011 that they were able to change the ‘Scottish Executive’ terminology into ‘the Scottish Government’, which may have mattered symbolically even if it did not make much practical difference).

    Basically, you might say that the Scottish parliament was to be a glorified ‘County Council’, rather than a focal point of national expression. In the Labour mindset, it was supposed to satisfy the need to feel like a nation again, while eliminating the desire actually to become one. The intention was to appease the aspirations which the SNP fed into while at the same time killing them off.

    The calculation was mistaken, for instead of depriving the national movement of oxygen the parliament only gave it added momentum. One act of appeasement actually led to others, as further powers were litle by little added. Limited though these were, this meant that the trajectory continued to move in the same direction – always towards independence.

    Older English Tories like Major and Thatcher, as well as Scottish ones like Forsyth, were fundamentally opposed to all such appeasement. In terms of political calculation this was understandable, given their opposition to independence. They did not want to fan the flames, which is what gradually increasing appeasement in fact did.

    When Cameron refused to put devo-max on the 2014 ballot paper he was in this position; when he was panicked into signing up to the so-called ‘Vow’ he abandoned it.

    It is now too late to put the genie back into the bottle.

    May will probably try to do so, but without being able to, as she will quickly find out. I would not be surprised if she thinks the Scottish parliament is something she can ‘suspend’, more or less at will, like the Stormont of old.

    That Cameron wanted that to be the case is the only possible explanation of his deliberate failure to enshrine Holyrood’s permanence in law. He pretended to have kept his promise to do so by incorporating an ambiguous phrase into the post-Smith Scotland Act that seemed to fulfill that promise but which, as he well knew, would not stand up in law. It could not produce the promised effect.

    This is typical of the Unionist game-playing that has plagued the parliament, and everything concerning it, ever since it was first conceived. It was set up in order to ‘keep back control’ firmly in Westminster’s hands, handing over to Scotland a semblance of power, but not the reality of it.

    The whole point of all these ‘wheezes’ – whether of Tory or Labour origin – was to keep the independence movement at bay, and prevent it from succeeding.

    To return to heedtracker’s question, quoted at the beginning of this post, that is the basis on which the Scottish parliament was founded. Those who initiated it (Labour) and those who originally opposed it, but subsequently came on board to use it for their own ends (the Tories), have always had that much in common.

    Whether they supported the Scottish parliament or opposed it, they always shared the common objective of preventing the SNP from taking Scotland all the way to its re-birth. Holyrood was founded on the principle that Scotland must never again become an independent nation.

    At least the likes of Thatcher and Major were basically honest about that: they opposed the creation of the Holyrood parliament because they knew it might well eventually lead to that outcome. They were never in favour of Scotland becoming independent, and they wanted to establish anything that might lead to that end. When you come to think of it, the fact that ‘Better Together’ made the Tories and Labour bedfellows is not surprising as it at first seemed. They had always been ‘in it together’ to eliminate the SNP, and prevent Scotland’s aspirations to full nationhood from ever succeeding.

    Labour invented the Holyrood parliament with that precise purpose in mind, just as the Tories originally opposed its creation for the very same reason. When they later joined in with it, nothing had changed in their basic objective. It was still the same: now that the wretched thing had been brought into existence, they had to participate, if only to block the SNP and the whole national or independence movement.

    The SNP were also very aware of the new parliament’s original purpose, but they also knew how to use it to foster their own aims, agaisnt those of its creators.

    Funnily enough, however much we may dislike them, the Tories have never been mealy-mouthed about that. When they said in the time of Thatcher and Major that within the Union Scotland does not have an out-and-out right to devolution, Labour agreed with them. They did not say it overtly, but in practice the devolution settlement meant that only the Westminster parliament had genuine governmental authority within the UK. Its authority, moreover, remained ultimately absolute. If any particular use of a devolved power were to disturb the government at Westminster sufficiently, the Westminster parliament can ultimately withdraw these powers, and prevent the devolved parliament from using them.

    This is what is meant by the axiom that ‘power devolved is power retained’. This is why the promise to make the powers devolved to Holyrood irreversible, at the time of the ‘Vow’ in 2014, was not kept. For the same reason, no further promise of a similar kind, emanating from anywhere within any Unionist party during an election or a referendum campaign, will ever be fulfilled.

    Neither ‘Devo-Max’ nor genuine ‘Federalism’ will ever be granted, for even if it seemingly were, this will be done in such a way that Westminster can always suspend the arrangements. Though I hated the phrase, and he did not mean it in this way, Billy Connolly was not entirely wrong when he called Holyrood a ‘pretendy parliament’. That is what it was always intended to be, and it is what Mrs May no doubt wants it to become. It was founded on the principle of giving Scotland the appearance of nationhood, while ensuring – as far as possible – that she never recovered that nationhood in reality.

    In the old Union, Scots could and did regard Scotland as a nation, within the UK. In the ‘new UK’ which New Labour originally tried to engineer, and which the Brexit Tories are now trying to re-shape in their own image, this was always going to be – ultimately – impossible. You can sell people a dummy – give them a semblance of something while depriving them of the reality – for only so long. Sooner or later – and it is more likely to be sooner – they will see through it.

    This is what is happening in Scotland. The 2014 opened the eyes of many to the the sham scam Scotland is being subjected to. Many, but not yet enough. What has happened since only serves, gradually, to confirm that impression, and gradually to bring people over to independence. It is not a juggernaut, which might be simply emotional; now it is increasingly a matter of hard-headed reason. You can’t help seeing what you see, and once you have seen through a scam, you can’t believe in it again.

    I think next time round there will be many who vote ‘Yes’ with a heavy heart, because they did like the old Union. But by the time the referendum comes round, they will have realised the self-evident fact that that old UK no longer exists, and cannot be revived. And they will have seen the ugliness of the fake and brash new thing they are being offered in its place … They will by then have shed any remaining illusions about the Brave New 4-nation Brexit (incorporating) Union being offered to them. That is the version of the UK presently being invented by Mrs May and Co, entirely on the hoof. These future Yes-to-independence voters will know in their heart of hearts that such a vile and obnoxious thing is not an option. Whatever their nostalgia for the past, they will – thankfully – not be able to go along with it.

    These are people the future Yes campaign will have to convince, helping them to come round. If Mrs Thatcher and Mr Major, through the quotes cited in the article, can be our allies in this – why not? An independent Scotland is not going to be a Left-wing dictatorship, or – I sincerely hope – a dictatorship of any kind. It will still have its convinced Conservatives, of one kind or another. Even those who disagree with them will have to acknowledge that they are as Scottish as anyone else living in Scotland, and respect them for that. It will be all the better if as many of them as possible are convinced that independence was, in any case, the right option for Scotland to take in 2018 or 2019, or whenever the vote will eventually take place.

    We will then have a real Scottish parliament, not the pretend one that Labour set up, with Lib Dem collusion. The one which Unionist Tories later joined for the sake of maintaining the Union.

    Insofar as Scottish Labour or Scottish Conservatives still exist at Holyrood after independence, they will be very different from what we have now. Even if some of the people concerned turn out to be the same, they will surely have changed in the tone and much of the substance of their politics by then. Holyrood itself will change. Whatever the likes of Thatcher or Major said in the past about the conditions under which Scotland would have an indisputable right to independence, as quoted above, will have been vindicated.

    We can only rejoice in that – and allow those of a more Conservative disposition to rejoice likewise. I look forward to a tolerant and pluralistic Scotland. One where real politics, aimed at the genuine common good, at last gains traction. Once the destructive games played by an increasingly desperate and dying unionism are no longer there to plague and distract us, we will surely be able to make a decent fist of it. There will be plenty of disagreement in an independent Scotland, but at least the focus will be on the right place. On Scotland’s own good, and whatever little good she might be able to do for the rest of the world, in cooperation with other nations.

  172. K1

    Well firstly May can’t say ‘no’ outright, else she would have?

    Secondly May cannot dictate the terms of the timing or the question, why would she, it would directly contradict the first indyref’s protocols and would be viewed as ‘diktat’ from London which would play into our hands would it not?

    So ah can’t really see ‘how’ we will be stopped from going ahead with Scotref at our own pace.

    If and only if May went that far and took that kind of gamble, which it would be, she risks not only the union but Brexit negotiations being railroaded by internal politics at play here in the UK? Why would she risk that at the start of A50 trigger?

  173. Free Scotland

    @Robert Peffers at 10:42

    Nice wee snippet. I’ll copy and keep that one, if you don’t mind.

  174. TheWasp

    That creepy wee turd McIvor on disreporting Scotland, giving it SNP/Swinney very bad for wanting to reform education.
    Obviously he had back up from the nice lady from the EIS, with no mention of the local council part in education provision

  175. Dr Jim

    Do you want to Tweet for Scottish Labour and get paid for it
    contact Kezia Dugdale

    That’s how bad things are for Labour when they can’t even dig up enough nasty folk voluntarily they’re offering to pay them

    Oooh! we’ve got one here

  176. Ian Brotherhood

    @Ronnie A –

    If you’re about, can you give a wee shout-out for BBC PQ, Sunday?

    Gary45% has been asking over on O/T. I’ve just replied saying it’s ‘on’, 2-4.



  177. Robert Peffers

    @carjamtic says: 23 March, 2017 at 1:41 pm:

    ” … To deny the Scotland’s citizens this right to choose,you must either,deny the fact that Scotland is a nation … “

    Now, carjamtic, just why do you imagine I have been posting what the Secretary of State for Scotland said on national TV and the paper commissioned by the Westminster Government during indyref1 plus the Supreme Courts ruling?

    Fluffy’s claim was quite explicit:-

    “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.”

    Then there is the fact that there is no legally elected Parliament of England but Westminster legislates for England using English Law and only tags bits on the end of English Acts to accommodate Scots law.

    Westminster calls itself the United Kingdom Parliament but uses EVEL to prevent all others from interference in what Westminster decides is English only matter while at the same time directly funding only England as the United Kingdom, deciding the levels of block grant that all others get and thus is devolving England’s powers to the devolved administrations.

    To all intents and purposes Westminster is the de facto parliament of England and all others are English dominions. It really is as clear as Mundell claims it to be.

    Westminster considers itself the Parliament of not only the entire United Kingdom that it assumes is actually England but as the parliament of all the rest of the non-UK parts of Britain.

    They refer to themselves as British often enough for even the most blind to see and the most deaf to hear.

  178. DerekM

    @ feel_loon

    There is a lot of it going about but guess what happens when you dig a little it would appear they are mostly all better together chumps or WATP.

    You see the yoons never really noticed Phantom until Mike ex better together activist and now enlightened member of the Scottish population was on the No to Yes series and since then the yes to no trolling has started.

    Just my theory on why this is happening.

  179. Graeme Doig

    Mike d

    Seconded. A talented and knowledgeable bunch this Wings crew.

    SD is pissing into the wind. Best avoiding him.

  180. mike d

    O/t i note the ebc and media omitted to mention the behaviour of the England fans against Germany last night,booing the German national anthem and singing their offensive ditties about who won the war. Get us away from these racists please.

  181. Graeme Doig

    I should say its best he avoids Wings. He’s just making himself look a wee bit daft.

    BTW Stu, hats off for staying on twitter given the abuse you take. Lesser men have “flounced” at a lot less.

  182. lumilumi

    Oh, ffs! I was midway through my great thinkpiece and then accidentally touched something wrong on my keyboard and all dissappeared into cyberspace. GRRRRR!! Woe is me.

    Ah, well, maybe it was for the better. I’ll try to express myself more succintly. (haha, I can never use 1 word when I can use 10)

    Sad that people have died. Media hysteria does not help, and their demands for “respect” are hypocritical.

    As can be expected, this tragedy has been hijacked by various groups to try to score political points, with no regard to the feelings of the family and friends of the actual victims.

    The Scottish Parliament decided to suspend their session and postpone the vote… so giving in to a suspected terror attack 600 km away. What happened to “Keep calm and carry on”, that “great British attitude” during WW II, and a popular meme/poster/pillow cover?

    (I suspect the unionist parties wanted Scot Parl to “keep calm and carry on” so that they could get all emotional and accuse the government (SNP) of being “insensitive” or whatever. They even tried to make it so, but the SNP and the Greens overruled them, so now they’re left with the smaller accusation of ScotParl skiving… giving in to terrorists, while UK Parl doesn’t… or something like that.)

    Amongst all this tragedy and weirdness I was struck by the number of YES people denouncing Wings over Scotland for being “insensitive” or “disrespectful” or whatever, telling their in-group to block WoS and never read his blog because he’s vile/insensitive/misogynist/transphobic/whatever.

    I’ve followed this vile person and his vile blog since 2011 and he’s never been misogynistic or transphobic or homophobic or whatever is the current gripe he’s accused of… Yeah, insensitive, I’ll give you that. Sweary, too, so obviously not for people who wish to purge their language and life of strong, emotive content.

    To all the indy supporters who denounce, even “hate”, WoS, I have three words:

    Divide and rule.

    This is 101 basic colonial supremacy rulebook. I can’t believe people are falling for it all day, every day even as we speak.

    Three more words:
    Get over yourselves.
    Scottish independence isn’t your bitch.

    It’s a broad church, a big tent, hell, it isn’t even contained in any kind of outer walls. It’s a midset, a mindset full of hope and opportunities, and I resent people who attempt to define these opportunities narrowly to suit their own little agendas.

    This is getting boring. Just get independent. You can have all the internal division you want arfterwards.

    Just stick together to get independence first.


    For getting a bit ranty. But…

    Independence is bigger than any of you, or any of your various YES groups’ ideologies or egoes.

    It’s about any of your friends and families and the kind of country you live in. Locked into a Westminster goverment (Tory until 2030 seems likely), or taking the initiave and making your country all it can be.

    Self-determination is so sacrosact in my independent country that we never question it. Independence has allowed us to be what we are, grow and struggle and build a society that WE want.

    This idea of self-determination in Scotland is so big it has Westminster shit-scared.

    That’s why they try to deploy the age-old Brithish empire ploy: divide and rule. They’re doing their best to divide the positive YES groups, and succeeding… because some swerry words and non-PC stuff at WoS.

    I dunno, I think swerry words wouldn’t turn me against self-determination and greater democracy for my country, but if swerry words turn Scots against independence and democracy, I’ll just say @£$€ €$£@, ye fucking – I don’t think they even have an insulting word or an emoticon for this ! But maybe older voters need conversations from (small c) conservative-looking friendly young men… Even pro-indy head-girl-type “gals”. Whatever.

    Just never forget. Everything will be spun aginst you, indy supporters, so you really need to go out there, talk face to face with as many people as you can.

    If you don’t win this one, your nation is fucked. Just a region of a Tory Greater England, poor getting poorer and rich getting richer, the Tory ministers and their chums hiding their money in tax havens – one of which the UK aspires to be, as Eton schoolboys… sorry, the UK’s Brexit negotiatiors… want it all but don’t want to pay for any of it, ot accept any bloody Johnny Foreigners in their wonderful little England.

    It’s interesting, playing petty, stupid internal politics and then naively expect the rest of the world will take you seriously and give you all kinds of concessions, because Empire 2.0 and Trump. Jeez. [insert head-banging emoticon here).

    Aaarghraaagh. I have to go and sleep in a darkened room. I once believed in humanity and I’ve been proved wrong.

    Sorry for the long rant. (I doubt anybody read it through anyway, so why am I apologising?)

  183. Lenny Hartley

    lumilumi says @ 1146 Brilliant excellant rant 🙂

  184. yesindyref2

    That’s funny. There’s someone going around “A Proud Scot”, proudly displaying a table from GERS over the last 14 years or so showing how bad, naughty, Scotland is. It has deficit at the top of the column, and minus figures underneath.

    A minus deficit is a surplus 🙂

    Can we take that to the Central Bank of Scotland?

  185. K1

    Ta Robert (JS) 😉

  186. K.A.Mylchreest

    Wull @ 12:41

    The Four Nation Fiction wheeze could in the end backfire, since I’ve recently discovered that there’s a movement YesCymru for a multi-choice referendum in Wales. It seems they’ve seen the way things are moving in Scotland and NI and are saying, “We need to get a piece of that before it’s too late!” The point being that the outlook for a Wales left alone cohabiting with just big stroppy Engerland does not look good at all. Rather like a wife stuck with an abusive husband after the kids have grown and left home and can no longer shield her from the blows.

    No idea if this stands any chance of success, but I think they deserve our support where practical, e.g. advice for a start maybe?

  187. Ian Brotherhood

    @lumilumi (11.46) –



    One of the finest ‘rants’ this place has ever hosted.

    *standing ovation from me*

    🙂 🙂 😉

  188. K1

    Well ranted Lumi…never apologise for yer passion…ever.

  189. Lenny Hartley

    Manx Government urging the UK to fully involve them in the Brexit Process, will you tell them or will I? Would not surprise me if a Crown Dependency that is not in the European Union has more say on Brexit than Scotland which is and also legally an equal partner in the UK.

  190. Bob Mack


    Every word a gem. I wish there were Scots who felt as passionate as you do about their own country.

  191. Flower of Scotland

    Well said lumilumi!

    I like to have background news on but found myself going through umpteen channels of awe and horror and switching off.

    The media are doing exactly what the terrorists want.

    WOS is sane and that’s why they attack Stu! I’m sure I’m not in a minority that want them to move on with of course respect to those who lost their lives , but with those in Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan etc, etc. too.

    Went to a wee night with a conversation with Peter A Bell. Very good it was too.

    Let’s now concentrate on the next step to Scottish Independence and ignore what’s his name contract signed up for the Union cyberists, S, Dave

  192. Reluctant Nationalist

    Welcome, lumilumi, to the desert of the real.

  193. carjamtic

    @ Robert Peffers

    Hi Robert

    I am not totally up to date with what’s what,at the minute and would certainly,put nothing past the little shape shifting London bagman,with his batshit crazy,nervous mutterings,but on this occasion,surely through thru his erse ?.

  194. ronnie anderson

    @ lumilumi hiv you upgraded tae turbo charged internet lol. xx

  195. Famous15

    Wings transphobic etc?

    I do not even know what that means.

    He does not suffer fools gladly and why should he?

    He swears too fucking much for my wife to approve but she has gone to bed.

    All in all he is what he is amd the yoons go mental. A ten from me.

  196. Michael McCabe

    lumilumi 11:46pm Best post I have read in Ages. Hopefully people take heed.

  197. Robert Peffers

    @Mike says: 23 March, 2017 at 5:35 pm:

    “Seems the economic argument is based on Independence only being viable if Oil is priced above $100 a barrel except when the UK becomes Independent from the EU when its $50.”

    Oh! For Heaven’s sake. Mike.

    The price of oil in relation to Scotland’s past, present or future economy is on a par with that other idiotic question, “what is the Price of Fish at Peterhead fish market”.

    Fact :- Scotland, since the first single drop of oil was extracted from Scottish territorial waters, has received not a single penny of oil & gas revenues from the United Kingdom Treasury.

    Proof 1 :- All oil & gas revenues are claimed by Her Majesty’s Customs & Excise as being extracted from what Her Majesty’s Government claims is United Kingdom Extra-Regio-Territory and is thus United Kingdom earned revenue and it goes right into Her Majesty’s Treasury as such.

    Proof 2 :- The people of Scotland pay their tax to Her Majesty’s Customs & Excise and it goes right into Her Majesty’s Treasury as being from Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise as United Kingdom earned revenue.

    The ONLY funding that is returned to the Scottish Government comes as a Block Grant of what the vast majority of Englanders claim to be English Taxpayer’s money and has no relationship to oil & gas revenues. It is decided entirely by Westminster, (the de facto parliament of England), only by The Barnett Formula and the relevant, “Barnett Consequentials”, which are factually regulated according to the direct funding in England which is accounted as being the United Kingdom’s funding but not as a block grant.

    Thus the truth is that the price of a barrel of oil, or of, “Oil Equivalent”, has utterly no relevance whatsoever to the Scottish economy.

    What does is all other revenue, on a per capita basis, that Scots contribute to the Treasury. This is measured in per capita GDP. The Scottish per capita GDP is normally higher that that of any other United Kingdom Country.

    This must therefore be compared against the Block Grant returned to Scotland as a Block Grant.

    That is – the Scottish per capita GDP, excluding such things as the Oil & gas revenues, the Scottish goods that are exported from the UK via English ports/airports, (that are accounted by HM treasury as English exports), and, like oil & gas, do not count as Scottish earned revenues.

    Compared to the average per capita share of the Block Grant.

    This calculation shows that each Scot on average contributes more and gets back less than any other country in the United Kingdom.

    This stupid question ranks along with that other idiotic question – “But what currency will Scotland use”?

    It doesn’t matter a damn what currency Scotland uses. What does is what, if anything Scotland chooses to call it and what, if any, other currency Scotland decides to tie her chosen currency to.

    Both subjects are RED HERRINGS used by Westminster Unionists to divert from the truth.

  198. Chick McGregor


    Great comment and so true.

    The biggest threat to the indy movement is the clashing of ego’s from those vying for that ‘Ultimate Indy Champion’ accolade.

    Trouble is, the main contenders are talented and their ambition does imbue them with astonishing levels of energy.

    For those of us, and I suspect there are many, who hate the limelight, yet feel compelled by the cause to speak out, it is very frustrating.

    Especially with the NIHism that goes along with it and their unwillingness to listen or pretence not to.

    But we kinda need them.

    PS off to Finland for our son’s birthday in a couple of weeks.

  199. Shaun the sheep

    lumilumi Yes I’m old,not keen on sweary words,but I follow Wings. Gives you facts, an informed choice? Great post. My sentiments exactly. Keep posting many like me are reading.

  200. Still Positive

    Well said lumilumi and much appreciated.

    Wull @ 10.47.

    it was not the labour party who brought about devolution in spite of what they claim.

    After the 1979 referendum the Scottish Constitutional Convention was set up under the chairmanship of Canon Kenyon Wright who died recently and Nicola Sturgeon said at his memorial/funeral: He was responsible for devolution.

    In fact this convention lobbied the UN and the Council of Europe (not the same as the EU) who said there should be devolved parliaments. John Major’s government rejected it which is when, I believe, Ian Lang SoS for Scotland conjured up GERS Tony Blair put it in a manifesto because he knew the UK would be kicked out of the EU if he didn’t.

    If you are in the EU you also have to be in the Council of Europe but if you are in the Council of Europe you don’t have to be in the EU.

    I was trying to prove this to one of my sons and posted in off-topic. Someone, apologies for not remembering who, posted a link to Electric Scotland. Maybe they could do so again so we can all read it.

  201. William Wallace

    @ Lum 23:46.

    Always good to rant in such a constructive way. Some of the earlier points were very well made.

    One thing about us Scots, we are canny bunch. We can see what we are up against but, we are currently consulting with each other on the best way to defeat it.

    The term “shot yir load too early” springs to mind where the Unionist agenda is concerned.

    Many of us have probably been taken aback at the reactionary moon howling by the Yoons and their subsequent outlets. It’s been something of a spectacle for informed Scots. They live for the headlines but, the people of Scotland will make the news.

  202. artyhetty


    I read your comment, all the way through, sometimes I avoid very long comments, just too much to do, and read.

    Agree. If people allow the britnat establishment to divide and rule even those in support of independence, and they will do their damnedest to try, then we are fckd. Sweary word, because it describes what Scotland will be if it’s a no, next time, and all of the work done in the last 10 years to reject the labour and tory austerity on the poor, while working to take Scotland into the 21st Century, will have been a waste. Not gonna let that happen though are we.

    I see that the Scotgov have set up a ‘Scottish Centre on European Relations’. All brand new. 🙂

  203. artyhetty

    Oops, meant Lumilumi@ 11.46 in last comment, too late at night to be up and online!

  204. yesindyref2

    In the same vein as lumilumi, here’s my rant.

    The National has carried an article by Richard Murphy, and this is an article by Mark Littewood. Remember him? The guy who knocked Dimbleby and Mundell’s socks off and had us all sitting upright with big beamers on our clocks.

    And yet people “archive” links to it to deny it revenue which the Unionist interloper tells us goes to support the Herald, in spite of it being a totally different title, one of hundreds owned by Newsquest.

    The same Unionist who pretends to support Indy tells us The National doesn’t support Indy and sneers at those who dare say it is.

    But what is even more totally enraging is that some brain-dead people seem to actually believe the Unionist troll. He’s a Unionist people, a fucking Unionist. If the circulation of The National goes down and we lose The National the unionist troll wins, and we lose.

    So don’t give this turd any credence at all, it’s smelly, it comes from under a rock, and it’s a Unionist.

    Buy The National, or be faced with a never-ending stream of IFS papers being misrepresented by the Unionist press as “Scotland is fucked”. Instead of having a paper, a title, that gives out the good news, the real news. Here’s that link again:

  205. K1

    Steffano says:
    23 March, 2017 at 5:23 pm
    Sensibledave was fishing down a manhole,a cybernat walked by and and stopped to ask him if he had caught anything.Sensibledave looked up with a twinkle in his eye and said “yes your the ninth”

    Conversely he’s the caught fish. He’s in oor manhole and he’s struggling fur breath on these threads…cause we don’t let him get any mair air than serves our purpose to use him as a useful idiot to debunk his regurgitated pish?

    Ma eye is full o’ twinkles 😉

    Aw depends on perception, you seem tae imbue him wi the power in yer scenario as the one who’s fishing and cybernats being ‘caught’? Ah choose tae see him as he is, a powerless wee nobody wi absolutely nae influence on our debate in Scotland, but bending over backwards tae convince unsuspecting potential ‘cybernats’ that what he is saying ‘is’ pertinent, when it is not.

    It’s up to us as individuals whether we want to spend our time time responding to whomever we all please on here.

    Only Stu decides who’s a troll. The rules when it comes tae who is and isn’t a troll:

    ‘2. Play the ball, not the man (or woman).

    And by all means disagree, by all means disagree forcefully – but argue with people’s views, don’t insult them personally. And that includes calling them “trolls” or implying they’re undercover Unionists. We’ll decide if someone’s trolling or not. But in the meantime, if you think they are, ignore them.

    If you know what a “troll” is, then you’ll also know that getting you angry and talking about them, derailing the conversation off the subject, is exactly what they want.

    Email us about suspected trolls if you want. But don’t engage them in debate if you doubt their motives, and DEFINITELY don’t engage in on-thread discussions about whether they’re a troll or not.’

    Comment more Steffano, the mair of those who support Scotland’s independence unlurk the less air becomes available to those who insist it’s not ‘normal’ to want tae run yer own country.

  206. dozie

    Got a leaflet through door tonight – We said no in 2014 we meant it. Hear John Lamont MSP make the case against a second independence referendum. Tuesday 28 March 7.00 p.m Corn Exchange Melrose. Find out what you can do to help stop Nicola Sturgeon breaking up Britain. On back is a form to fill in send to Tory leader or sign online. Wonder if it will be well attended?

  207. gus1940

    The Scum at the Daily Mail are running a Fake News Story about ‘The Fury at the fact that it took Holyrood an hour after the event to suspend the sitting after the attack in London’ the implication being that it was all the despicable SNP’s fault.

  208. Macart

    @lumilumi 11.46

    I’d recommend people read that post and take heed mmmmkay?

    Independence is a mindset. It is a community. A people. A nation.

    It is ALL of that community. ALL of the people. All of the nation. It is every kind of person from every walk of life and there are some pretty basic yet hefty concepts which unite all of us. We believe in the right to self determination. We believe government should serve the needs and aspirations of the population. We believe in tolerance and inclusion. That last bit should be considered fairly important if we want to be independent by the by.

    It’s not about one person’s vision, or one person’s way. It’s about creating a home we can all live in and live with and that means living with each other. Learning to form consensus and compromise with each other without losing sight of who we are. It’s about having the opportunity to have the system and type of government that we vote for and is answerable to us as a ‘population’. A government shaped by the people, for the people.

    ALL the people.

    If some folk can’t get behind that concept, then I give you Westminster as an example of what happens when you have a state which considers favouring the wants and needs of one tiny demographic over the needs and aspirations of all in their care.

    Worked out well didn’t it?

    A nation is ultimately judged on how it views and treats its population from the least among them to the greatest, NOT the other way round.

    Maybe worth thinking about the next time someone decides to attempt to divide a grassroots movement by telling you who should be included or excluded.

  209. Capella

    @ Still Positive – here’s the link to the Electric Scotland pdf which tells the story of the UN and EU support for devolution:

  210. HandandShrimp

    The Mail may thrashing around for its usual foamy mouthed rant so an SNPBaaad story is always a standby. I heard on the radio that the killer was called Adrian. Their heads will implode as they wrestle with the implications.

  211. Capella

    @ Lumilumi 11.46 – just read your “rant” up-thread. Spot on. The Empire certainly does do “divide and rule” excellently well. Some poor fools will fall for it. But sanity should prevail once the feverish media calm down and gain some perspective.
    Please do carry on!

  212. Sensibledave


    I see, based upon some of the comments above, that many think I have over stepped the mark in some of my comments.

    The only time I start to get “cross” and therefore combative or more robust is through frustration.

    On this thread, my frustration is based upon my perception that many Wings contributors are so passionate, so determined and committed – and yet so lacking in an ability to even try to analyse events or positions being taken. The apparent dog whistle call to arms is unquestioned. No one questions or asks whether your leadership is getting it right.

    At the same time, there is enormous naivety regarding the commitment of your political opponents. Regardless of the situation or the subject matter, that is a potentially damaging trait.

    Based upon the comments from most here, the coming vote in Holyrood is seen as the next stage in automatic process to a win. No thought appears to be given to the risks of that strategy – or what the devils in Westminster may be plotting next.

    After the vote is won next week, what will ms may do next is the important question – I would have thought?

    Will she prevent it? Will she agree to it? Will she agree to it – but much sooner or until after Brexit? If an advisory referendum does go ahead,what will ms may do? Will she tell everyone to just abstain because the result will not be accepted at this time. What would the result of an advisory referendum be in those circumstances. Where would that leave ms sturgeon and the cause for Scottish independence? Etc, etc.

    As I keep writing, underestimating your opponent’s determination, will and commitment is often the quickest way to come unstuck. That statement can be misread as a “threat” – but it is not, it is understood by most people involved in any serious negotiation or situation.

    Peace and goodwill to al (even you Heedy).

  213. Thepnr

    Here’s something well worth reading until Nana puts her links up.

    “It is the negation of Scotland’s democratic will, not the EU question as such, that justifies an IndyRef2”

  214. Capella

    “On this day in history
    King James VI of Scotland also became King James I of England on 24 March 1603, at the death of Queen Elizabeth I of England. The two kingdoms were ruled in union by King James but each retained its own parliament and laws. On hearing of the death of Queen Elizabeth, James prepared to leave for England with all haste and was crowned in London on 25 July 1603.

    Despite promising to return to Scotland regularly, James is belived to have travelled there only once, in 1617.”

  215. Liz g

    Thepnr@ 7.30
    A good read…Says it all really.

    I see we are also having “Too Stupid” explained to us “all” this morning as well…..and it’s our own comments that prove it too…..Ho Hum.

  216. Effijy

    I watched Question Time last night and I was astonished at the Welsh Audience.

    With Teresa May not listening to a word from the Welsh Assembly, and the EU being a great source of funding for the economic black spots across Wales, they are going to be hammered by the very Brexit that they voted for.

    One member of the audience put forward that Wales, like Scotland, should have a referendum, only for this comment to become the only one that did not get a single supporting clap from the rest of the audience?

    These people know that they currently get a raw deal from Westminster, they can pretty much see that halting the EU Subsidies and further Tory Austerity cuts are going to drive them into the ground, but they seem happy that this is the price they have to pay to be governed by England?

    Like Scotland, they always voted for left of centre politicians, but like us they generally get right wing Tory
    governments, but they seem to be oblivious to the fact
    their ballot papers could be swapped for a colouring in books and deliver the self same results for them.

    I really don’t get what is going on down there, but I suppose it took Scotland a very long time to recognise how
    Labour in Scotland have used and abused us for the last 50 years.

  217. Hamish100

    S Dave

    You get frustrated – poor wee soul. Go for a walk. I do itballmthe time when the Scottish people’s and this nation is ignored , belittled and basically trashed by fellow ” I am a patriotic Scot, but…” Brigade the biased ” foreign owned newspapers ( outwith uk) dictating the terms of debate and debasing our people.
    Basic democracy is the issue.
    2014 Vote No stay in the Eu – turned out to be a lie
    The vow— enough said -multiple lies
    Scottish elections, general election SNP by all measures won. But evel kicks in . Westminster tells Scotland we don’t give a toss what you think. PM elected by Tory MP’s not by Scotland not by the other Nations converts to UKIP mode and undermines this country. Davidson and Dugdale convert.

    Frustration? Walk in our shoes.

  218. frogesque

    @sensible Dave.

    Personally I’m well aware of the twists, turns, lies and shenanagins Westminster may get up to. The next step for the Indy movement is to conclude the interrupted debate for a ‘polite’ Section 30 ‘request’.

    The ball is then in T.Rex’s court.

    Your speculation, my speculation is irrelevant. The rest? Events dear boy, events!

  219. Smallaxe

    Nana: Good Morning, (Been worried)

    It’s a lovely sunny morning here.Thank you for your links.Kettle’s on!
    All is now well.

    Peace Always

  220. schrodingers cat

    Effijy says:
    I really don’t get what is going on down there, but I suppose it took Scotland a very long time to recognise how
    Labour in Scotland have used and abused us for the last 50 years.

    once scotland is indy, the proud scotbuts will find out very quickly the extent of WM’s lies about scotlands economy

    but so will the welsh. to that extent, welsh independence is linked and dependent on scots independence

  221. Nana


    Good morning. I’m slow today, joints needed oiling! That 3 in 1 stuff is pretty good lol

    This afternoon Livestream with Prof Curtice

    Chatting with folk over the last few days, none of whom were aware of the tory election fraud. Just goes to show how little has been reported and also how few folk watch channel 4.

    Perhaps we should be publicising it more, maybe some posters? That would cause a few meltdowns I’m sure.

    Tory election fraud

  222. Breeks

    The problem with sweary words is that they feel terrific on the way out, but very dull when they’re inbound from the other direction.

    I say that as somebody that swears like a trooper, but I try not to. I feel I’ll be a better person, and less dull to others, if I can finally learn to express the terrific release that swearing gives you, but do it without the actual profanity.

    Sadly, that particular project isn’t going so well…Partial success with some empathy for my fellow potty mouths, but self improvement is slow and inconsistent.

    I’m not entirely sure putting the e in feck stops it being a swear word either. Just marks you as a Father Ted watcher.

  223. Bob Mack


    I can see you now in a past life, standing on the verandah of your home , and giving instructions out to the worker natives who have to be given explicit instructions because they are like children

    You would have been right at home during the days of the Raj Dave, giving other imperfect beings the benefit of your knowledge and experience before they go to work…

    We could probably crowd fund a pith pith helmet for you. Sahib.

  224. Polscot

    O/T – another rant about lack of preparation for media interviews.

    Just been listening to R4 Today programme where Nick Robinson mugged Eileen Campbell, SG minister for the SNHS. I know it’s been said many times before on here (and other blogs) but the lesson doesn’t seem to be learned at a senior level in the SG that they need to have responses prepared in advance for tory shills like Robinson.

    Campbell thought she was invited to talk about increased support for IVF treatment in Scotland, the good news story used to sucker the minister to appear on the show. So, of course, Robinson leads with missed A&E targets, waiting time targets and maternity care is inadequate in Glasgow, priorities are wrong in SNHS states Robinson. He also backed up his attack with a quote from the British Medical Association about how the SNHS is “near breaking point” and the Scottish Parliament passed a motion supporting this BMA statement.

    Instead of having some really good responses prepared in advance Campbell resorts to listing some things that the SG are going to do and “vast numbers of improvements” that have already been made. She could have been attacking the cuts in funding from the Tory government in Westminster, she could have prepared quotes or stats from front-line troops (consultants, nurses, managers) instead of the unattributed quote from the BMA. There must be no more than ten topics (the same ones that usually get trotted out) where some real tangible facts could be prepared in advance, then she could go on the attack and be less defensive, the old six Ps principle.

    When a SG minister or SNP representative gets invited by the BBC, or any other media channel to answer questions about a news story, they must know they are not there for “good news” therefore they must know they are going to be attacked about something tangentially related. This is no surprise, it happens regularly so why do ministers never seem to prepare their ripostes in advance. Do they have any media training for SG ministers? If so, the company doing it is spectacularly unsuccessful.

    There are many in the SG and SNP who are very good in media interviews, it isn’t difficult to prepare and rehearse those that aren’t yet at the level of a Sturgeon, Salmond, Cherry, Wishart or Robinson who don’t get side tracked by the interviewer and don’t come across as waffling. Some practice in advance and those skills will soon be learned.

    This is a bit of a longer rant than I had in mind, but it still rankles when there is an obvious lack of preparation for interviews. If the SG can’t find anyone to prepare them for interviews, I’ll come over and get it done!

  225. Smallaxe


    try Wd40 it’s Great.

    Peace Always

  226. Sensibledave


    … pleased to see someone is actually thinking frogy.

    “Events” indeed – kismet or planned.

  227. Famous15

    No wonder Wings is said to be really,really,really nasty unlike that nice Mr Spanner and Historywoman (is she on holiday?) as he said that nice Mrs May and her government are behaving like petulant children.


    You all are not a cult but do respond to a whistle like Pavlov’s dogs and it is sensible to listen to me Dave the yoon.That foaming at the mouth is probably just a touch of hydrophobia.Nothing to worry about.

    I have heard the word “democracy” and “democratic values” so often in the last two days that it would be insane for Mrs May to deny the democratic will of the peoples of Scotland. Innit.

  228. Brian Powell


    They should be better prepared for wider questioning, however in Scotland people know how good the service is and only those with an agenda readily accept the criticism for their own purpose.

    Nick Robinson is impressed by his own ‘cleverness’, it may go down well with folk in the south but not here.

  229. Macart


    Mornin’ Nana 🙂

    These three really stood out and are well worth the read for very obvious and pertinent reasons.

    No.1. Remember during indyref HMG/BTs pledges on pensions folks?

    No.2. Don’t just talk the talk. Walk the walk.

    No.3. Capital flight…. wonder if it’s a positive thing for the UK and only appalling and fearful when it’s Scotland?

  230. Robert Peffers

    @lumilumi says: 23 March, 2017 at 11:46 pm:

    … Sad that people have died. Media hysteria does not help, and their demands for “respect” are hypocritical.
    As can be expected, this tragedy has been hijacked by various groups to try to score political points, with no regard to the feelings of the family and friends of the actual victims.

    Well said, lumilumi. Sometimes a right good rant is required to get through thick skulls.

    As to the Holyrood action by inaction I too had a few thoughts upon that little matter but I did note that they would be damned if they did and damned if they didn’t.

    First of all my memory may be playing tricks with me but I do not recall the Westminster parliament shutting up shop when a terrorist walked into the school in Dunblane in Scotland and killed little children and their teachers.

    Of course, in Westminster terms, he could not possibly be a terrorist because he was Christian, white and had, apparently, friends in high places.

    So clearly the events in London, in the close proximity of the Westminster Establishment, come under quite a different category. My thoughts are that all these accusations that are going on now have nothing whatsoever to do with respect for the dead, the relatives and friends of the dead but are considered to be a good time to not only hide bad news but to score political points.

    Let me be quite clear I regret and am saddened by anyone’s death or anyone suffering life changing injury from whatever cause. My feelings of disgust at the political manipulators has nothing to do with those feelings of regret for fellow humans dying and being crippled anywhere in the World but if the World were to stop every time a tragic incidence took place then the World will be witnessing the end of humans in this World.

    It may sound daft but dying is all part of life as, of course, is birth and we humans must just get on with life.

    In short, carrying on with normal life is not disrespectful of the dead. Let those who loved them mourn their passing others stopping their lives for, “respect”, will not help the grief of the ones deprived of a loved one.

  231. Nana


    “wonder if it’s a positive thing for the UK and only appalling and fearful when it’s Scotland?”

    Never forget Macart, if a stink bomb goes off in London it is a very good thing. if a stink bomb goes off in Scotland its very very bad, so bad its snpbad [always] bad bad bad

    Spotted this earlier, any thoughts? Maybe I have a suspicious mind. Elvis are you in the building?

  232. Macart


    Nope. Don’t know enough to comment, but if I were the SG and an employer? I’d be pretty much aware of the chap’s background and CV. 😉

  233. Graf Midgehunter

    I turned off the computer early yesterday evening because I was completely pissed off with all the SUCKERS who still engage with Insanity Dave and ruin the thread.

    That meant I missed the superb post from our Ice Princess in Finland at 11.46 pm.

    Go and read it and think once again about why we need to stand upright on our hind legs and demand that we take our independence and not have to beg for it.

    LumiLumi thank you. 🙂

  234. mike d

    So the Westminster attacker was an englishman Adrian Russel born in Kent,and not an immigrant. Wonder what headline the daily heil will make with that info?.

  235. Ken500

    Rev Stu should ignore the trolls. They have ruined every other website. That is why Wings is so successful. The trolls are kept at bay. So they cannot ruin the website. It is an Independence supporting website without the disruptive trolls, Annoying people. There are few other Independence supporting websites. Where people can just exchange information.

    Rev Stu great articless and abalysis.

  236. Nana

    One more link. Yesterday there was a piece in the Catholic Herald written by an overblown balloon or bampot sage as Jason Michael calls him.

    Here Jason Michael puts him in his place

  237. Scott

    This is not trying to make any kind of political capital,
    but T May stands up in the HoC and tells them and all the country we are not afraid we then see her being ushered out to her car and running with her body guards I just wonder at that moment was she not afraid.Careful what you say TM as things can come back to haunt you.The clip I saw on tv will disappear very quickly I suppose.

  238. orri

    The insidious thing is that the tact may have been changed. Instead of “divide and rule” it’s not “unite and rule”. Although it’s in a borderline racist way.

    May was initially scheduled to say that we’re 4 nations but at heart one people. Obviously the problems with that re Northern Ireland might have been highlighted to her. So she changed it to Britons whether in England, Scotland Wales of NI. However that’s kind of problematic as she’s substituted one flawed but possibly divisive definition for another that’s highly problematic given she’s meant to lead a government of the UK as a whole rather than “Britons” only.

    I’ll hazard a guess that if it’d only had to do with Scotland then it’d be a way of denying any right to self determination to us in Scotland. On the other hand it doesn’t actually make any claim that the majority in Scotland are or would identify themselves as “Britons”.

  239. Ken500

    ‘D’ Notice. Official Secrets Act. MSM is not allowed to report details. Or the Editor goes to jail. The details are not being released because they do not want the public to know,

    Teresa May as Home Secretary was in charge of security.

    It is being played down. The details are not being released RT? Had a Report two days ago with all the details.

  240. Juteman

    Maybe this has already been suggested.
    Why don’t we contact the UN, as our right to self determination is being denied?

  241. Macart

    @ orri

    Yeah, spotted that at the time and posted this elsewhere, but I think worth reposting.

    “This isn’t a question about whether the people of Scotland should have a choice or not”

    That is an outright and bald faced lie by the PM. This is ALL about our right to choose.

    Another beaut worth noting however was: “at heart we are one people”. Which I’m sure folks who are of 1st or 2nd generation continental European origin, or folks who have partners of continental orgin, all of whom have the very real fear of deportation hanging over them, may take some fucking exception with. These are people, human beings. They are people with residency rights, civil rights whose investment in our society as new Scots, as UK citizens is placed under very real and direct threat by Westminster Conservative government.

    So, yes. Yes I’d say they may have something to say about Theresa May’s ‘one people’ bullshit. Also pretty sure that the near 190,000 EU residents in Scotland are fully aware that a major reason for Theresa May’s ‘not a good time’ delaying tactic is to ensure that the voting rights of these Scottish citizens are removed from any future ballot or referendum.

    Right now, finding it hard to grasp why people support this abuse? Why people would support what basically amounts to human rights violation. Is it because they think ‘it’ll never happen to me’? Do they think ‘well it’s that foreign bloke lives down the road, him that’s a neurosurgeon at the Royal’ or ‘it’s that wummin’s Tally husband. Works in that regen company’, or ‘them Polish tattie pickers. They just nick oor joabs, so fuck them’, is that it? Seriously? Can we fit in a few other stereotypes, d’you think?

    People you better wise up and wise up really, REALLY, quickly. NO ONE is above having their human rights violated or removed… and I do mean NO ONE.

    Unless you’ve been living in a fucking cave for the past seven years LOOK at Austerity/Brexit UK. Look at the food banks, the benefit sanction ideology, the rich/poor gap disparity, the mortality rates, the loss of services across the boards. You are having YOUR rights and mandate abused on a daily basis.

    Those EU residents. They are fellow citizens. Those new Scots ARE our people and some folk think its OK to abuse those citizens.

    I don’t fucking think so.

    So get a fucking grip of yourselves and act like the Scots you are meant to be and the Scots you want to be.

    Rant done.

  242. Dorothy Devine

    Nana , particularly liked that last one as he not only dissects S. Daisley but also that well known composer, so fond of his own voice and so into his victimhood.

  243. HandandShrimp

    I can’t say Dave bothers me. I sometimes read his posts and sometimes I am involved in other conversations and I don’t.

    I quite liked Captain Caveman too. A contrary view a troll does not make. Unlike Scotland United we don’t shut people down the first time they post an opposing view.

    Viking Warrior and all his permutations was a different matter. The obsession focussed on Nicola, Alex and the SNP generally was just a but weird. However, he was allowed a fair run before Stu got tired of it.

    On the whole I think we have a good site here. 🙂 That is why it is so widely read…even by the Yoon journalists although it sticks in their craw to admit it.

  244. One_Scot

    Seriously, I don’t know how people are happy to waste their time.

  245. heedtracker

    Peace and goodwill to al (even you Heedy).

    Awe, you must be a new sensibledave because the other one’s a panicky snide git.

    Doubt anyone is underestimating unionist and tory determination sensible, from the Vow shyste, to David Cameron’s tearful begging and pleading Scots, that turned into something rather different 19th Sept 2014.

    Never trust a tory sensibledave.

  246. stu mac

    @feel_loon says:
    23 March, 2017 at 10:35 pm

    Intelligence and education means nothing on its own. They don’t affect prejudice and self-interest which can put blinkers on both making them ineffective.

    Read a book years ago (lost in a house move so don’t recall author/title) which was about stupidity. Yes, but it was serious. A statement in the intro always stuck with me (and is so long ago I must paraphrase):
    Stupidity is not due to lack of intelligence. People who are otherwise very intelligent and educated often do and believe stupid things. Because intelligence doesn’t automatically protect you from being prejudiced, selfish, lazy, arrogant or obstinate. All these individually or several together can lead to an otherwise intelligent person acting in a stupid manner.
    On a lot of occasions these stupid things are everyday harmless things but sometimes, particularly where politics, religion and self-interest are concerned it can be dangerous.

  247. Chick McGregor

    Jack Collatin

    Great posting there.

    Would add that, I hope, for his sake, that Sensible is being disingenuous rather than actually believing the rubbish he comes out with.

    By his ‘logic’, with a starting point of 28-29% in the polls for indy and a minority of pro indy MPs from Scotland in the HOC, Cameron should never have agreed to a referendum.

    Whereas 50-50 in the polls and 56 out of 59 MPs is not enough.

    No logical consistency whatsoever.

    Of course the truth is, they oppose indyref2 because of that increased support and the likliehood of Yes winning and not because of any lack of indicated support.

    He may, of course, be a committee as you suggest. Would certainly explain the number of camels produced.

  248. schrodingers cat

    brexit was not of scotlands making and the blame for the inevitable economic fall out will be laid at WM’s door.

    Conversely, this situation offers the best opportunity for scottish independence for 300 years, the worse the economic fallout and the longer it continues, the more enticing the independence lifeboat will become.

    Westminster intransigence, meh, nothing new, but the worst effects of brexit will come once the uk actually leaves. A unionist could just as easily argue that indyref2 should happen sooner rather than later.

    Holyrood is not without its own options, some more dramatic than others, but for the moment, we should keep our powder dry and let brexit do its worse. it will give us time to prepare, publish scotlands future 2 etc.

    Our star is rising and i dont see anything on the horizon that is going to change that

  249. heedtracker

    German embassy had its flags at half mast after latest London attack,

    Meanwhile Graun says,

    “The Football Association’s chairman, Greg Clarke, has condemned the “inappropriate, disrespectful and disappointing” behaviour of England fans in Germany on Wednesday night – but stopped short of issuing an apology to their hosts.

    England’s 1-0 defeat in Dortmund was marred by supporters booing the German national anthem, outstretching their arms to mimic fighter planes and spending large parts of the night going through a repertoire of songs about the first and second world wars.”

  250. Mike

    A home grown convicted criminal thug committed a heinous crime in London and the UK establishment are hell bent on promoting the event as an Internationally inspired act of Terrorism.
    The media wanted and needed to promote it as an act of Internationally inspired terror to make it more sensational.
    The UK Governments motives are more sinister. They will use it to impose unpalatable legislation.

    This is just a small example of how utterly corrupt the UK State truly is.

  251. TheWasp

    As a former whisky worker i think that the GMB have a damn cheek to moan about brexit on behalf of their members.
    The industry has ridden roughshod over the workforce with the complicity of the GMB for the last 10 to 15 years. You will find on the shop floor these days the workers are non union, temporary agency placements.
    I was in the GMB for years and in my experience the union was actually in the pocket of the management at local level and Scotland wide
    I have seen “jiggery-pokery” in action over the years and have been told multiple times that the union wouldn’t back any kind of industrial action.
    GMB = SWA lapdogs

  252. Robert Peffers

    @Sensibledave says: 24 March, 2017 at 7:26 am:

    ” … On this thread, my frustration is based upon my perception that many Wings contributors are so passionate, so determined and committed – and yet so lacking in an ability to even try to analyse events or positions being taken.”

    Best laugh of the week, sensibledave.

    Your problem and frustration rests far closer to home than you suspect.

    You have absolutely no analytical powers whatsoever. Every conclusion you arrive at is arrived at via a very Britnat mindset, that in common with every other Britnat, cannot see the actuality that is the Westminster Establishment.

    I’ve stated it plainly and without frills often enough and it invariably goes whooshing way over your head.

    The name of the Treaty of Union that begat the United Kingdom is a legally binding contract under both the laws of England and the laws of Scotland.

    Neglecting, for the moment, the absolute historic truth that it was forced upon the people of Scotland by not only the crown & government of the Kingdom of England as proven by the undercover actions of Sir Robert Harley and the two proven undercover agents that Harley employed – William Paterson & Daniel Defoe. There was undoubtedly massed English troops on the Scottish/English borders and a Royal Navy fleet lying off the Firth of Forth and so military threats. The legal status of the Treaty, and hence both Acts of Union is obviously illegal by even international courts.

    Besides that the title of the agreement is “The Treaty of Union”, and what it supposedly created is a union of the only the two Kingdoms extant in the British Isles in 1706/7.

    There is not a single mention in the treaty nor in either Act of Union of the terms, “Country”, or, “Countries”, in the entire documentation. There is, though, in the preamble to the Treaty mentions of the Dominions of the Kingdom of England which are references to the existing English Kingdoms dominions in the British isles. These are Wales and Ireland but did not include the Bailiwicks of Jersey & Guernsey and the Iles of Man which still today remain, non-Westminster ruled, personal to the crown only, Crown Protectorates.

    So the United Kingdom was then and remains today a legal Union of only two, equally sovereign, kingdoms and is thus itself a bipartite Union of Kingdoms. It is not a unified country nor is it a unified state. It is a kingdom composed of only two equally sovereign kingdoms.

    Thus neither kingdom can lay claim to be sovereign over the other. As to the legal sovereignty of the resultant Westminster Government this only legally rests with the Westminster government as long as it abides by the terms of the Treaty that begat it.

    Yet today Westminster openly claims it not only sovereign but is the de facto parliament of England that was renamed by the Treaty of Union as the United Kingdom. No such terms are to be found in the Treaty or acts of union.

    Yet the Westminster appointed Secretary of State for Scotland has announced on national TV,

    “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.

    This is a downright lie but today the Westminster parliament has assumed for itself to be the de facto parliament of England. It funds itself as such and it legislates for England under only English Law while splitting the former United Kingdom as four countries with Westminster now the unelected as such, parliament of England that is thus devolving English powers to three dominions one of which is not, and never has been legally a dominion of England.

    That is the perspective you and the rest of the Unionists hold to be true but which has no basis in even English law. Your analysis will thus always be flawed and that is the basis of your frustration and you will never see the truth for what it is.

    Now, sensibledave, can you show which of my claims above are factually wrong for there is many proofs that I am right but none that I am wrong.
    A few to note :-

    There was no legal Union of the Crowns in 1603. Prove there was.

    The Treaty of Union was illegal: Prove that it was.

    Westminster is a bipartite union of Kingdoms: Prove that it isn’t

    There’s more, much more, but these will suffice for the time being.

  253. Alba woman

    Macart. I do not view your post as a rant in the least. You are spot on. Mrs. T set the ball rolling with her attack on the rights and entitlements of pregnant women. This was one of her first measures in government. She and her political friends did like to go for the most vulnerable.

    I was reading this morning that Britain is near the bottom of the European league for paid maternity leave provision. Croatia, Hungary and the Czech Republic pay more to new mothers. Looks like there are still loads of virgin births in terms of social and financial support for new mums and their much loved babies.

  254. Mike

    Love the fact that the so called deficit claims are being ripped to fuck on Twitter.

    Lets do it everywhere else now that we have an actual argument to present that the UK Government cant cover up.

  255. DerekM

    @ HandandShrimp

    lol yep and the only reason the Rev lets him post is so you all can cut your teeth on him,so that if and when you venture forth into the yoonstream you are prepared for the real yoon trolls.

  256. Ken500

    Stop critising the SNP representatives MSP being ambushed by the Press. It just back fires Many women/people know what it is like being bully and harassed by arrogant self centred ignorant ill informed men, with a sense of self intitlement. Women can experience it all the time being criticised. Many women/people will identify with Shona Robinson. In the workplace. Doing a good job but being criticised by an offensive male know all. Robinson comes over like an ill informed, rude arrogant, cheeky ignoramous. As a result woman/people will support Shona and vote SNP and have no confidence in the BBC misreporting and bias. BBC policy rebounds on the BBC No one listen to or watches it. Less viewers. Less offensive programmes. A waste of money. The MSM are destroying their own industry.

    People like people like themselves. Representational. That is why it is better to have a gender based, age based etc political Party. A cross section. It is better to have auld wimmin candidates because a bigger quota of them will vote and become engaged in the political process. It increases support.

    The biased ill informed Press attack just misfired. The ‘interviewer’ will lose support and the SNP will gain support. The people who use the SNHS and the workers in Scotland, know the SNHS is working will because of their experience when using it. A better improved service. It could be improved with a tax on ‘ loss leading’ drink. Or minimum pricing which the unionists oppose, The electorate know. The Unionists prevent improvements in Health policies in the UK. They cut the budget.

  257. heedtracker

    From the archives, my Slovene girlfriend in close up, being honest er a wee bit, great kisser too,

    As she whispers in my shell like after we been doing it like they do in the Discovery Channel, WATP!

  258. Scot Finlayson


    also watched bbcqt,

    Leanne Wood looks like she has a job on her hands convincing the people of Wales to free themselves from Westminster control,

    didn`t seem to be many Welsh accents in the audience, looked like a motly crew of retired English and non Welsh students,

    the priest was bad and good,

    the Tory and Labour were condescending establishment mouthpieces,

    disappointed in Rifkind and his commitment to the dying Brutish Union,a man living in the past,thought he might have come round to seeing what is best for Scotland not just what is best for him.

  259. Macart

    @Alba Woman

    Exactly so.

    It is ALL about rights. It’s about controlling or stifling those they cannot abolish and abolishing those they can for their own benefit.

    If we do not exercise our rights, or allow others to gain from exercising them on our behalf for purposes other than we would like, then we have no redress and no control.

    But we better believe that if we allow others access to those rights, they will use and abuse them.

  260. bjsalba


    What would you have had her say? Did you want her to rebutt his points one by one in order?

    He was prepared by experts.

    No matter how well she is prepared, it would be impossible to rebutt his points in that fashion without having advance knowledge of what he was going to say.

    Be reasonable.

  261. Reluctant Nationalist

    Sensibledave is here to save us all from ourselves. Hurray!

  262. Reluctant Nationalist

    @ bjsalba

    I thought the BBC sometimes let politicians know the questions in advance. Wasn’t there someone who refused an interview because they didn’t get briefed, then the BBC spitefully made it news?

  263. heedtracker

    Be reasonable.

    Also, we’re all on the same team! Coming up against tory henchman and bootboys like Robinson and the Ligger takes guts and must need a fair amount of practice to deal with beeb goons getting their shots in. They all know that they’ll still be here battering away for the tories, long after every politician they take down has gone, 4th estate BBC style and why the BBC exists.

    Other coffee news, Graun,

    EU referendum and Brexit Friday 24 March 2017 07.35 GMT

    UK will rejoin the EU one day, suggests Jean-Claude Juncker

    Brexit is a failure and a tragedy, says EC chief Juncker
    European commission president confirms Britain will get a bill for leaving, but said this did not represent a ‘punishment’

    Brexit is “a failure and a tragedy”, the president of the European commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, has said.

    The EU’s most senior civil servant promised that Brussels would approach the negotiation of Britain’s withdrawal in a “friendly” and fair way, but warned that European institutions were not “naive” about the process.

    Imagine all the Daily Heil style neo fascist tory roasters at their desks, trying to get to get their readers and viewers to hate Juncker even more, and he’ll never hear their hate rage.

  264. Bob Mack

    Are we going to allow the Unionist media to set the narrative about the Scottish NHS? It is doing better than any other country in this Union. Far better.
    We have had no junior doctor strikes, and our target times and other KPI’S are only just short of ideal in spite of repeated attacks.
    We have also introduced systems to ensure every worker has a voice and every team has the chance to put right problems they may have had in the past where no solution existed apart from a “generic” statement .

    The Scottish NHS, and I can tell you this with absolute certainty is gaining an exceptional reputation abroad for the way it treats it’s workers. So much so that the best health care providers in the world are interested in importing the systems for their own staff. Have you heard the Scottish Government bragging about this ? No ,and neither will you. Actions speak louder than words.

    Do not listen to rubbish from people who know nothing about the reality.

  265. Liam

    K.A.Mylchreest said:

    The Four Nation Fiction wheeze could in the end backfire, since I’ve recently discovered that there’s a movement YesCymru for a multi-choice referendum in Wales.

    No idea if this stands any chance of success, but I think they deserve our support where practical, e.g. advice for a start maybe?

    I don’t care if it stands any chance of success or not but it is definitely worthy of support.

    Even if it is only in our own self-interest we should support it on the grounds that it is playing the Unionists at their own Divide and Rule game.

  266. Ken500


    Ignoramous green Ron Greer 3rd rate reject criticises the SNP education policy. The Scottish Gove give the Council generous amounts to cover all local government essential services. There should be totally adequate provided services. A Green elected by 600 votes to stop an essential road wasting £Millions/Billions of public money. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.

    The said Green goes into coalition with the unionists to form a ruling group. For remuneration and Office to give them the casting vote. To get all the unionists unpopular policies through and break all ‘green’ principles. The ruling group cut education spending. Cut spenfing on essential services etc. No provision for homelessness, cut all additional educational support, etc. All social care,

    The unionist and green ruling group then borrow and spend £Million/Billion wasting £100Million or more. Refuses a Gift of £80Million to pedestrianise the City. Supported by the majority wishes and the public interest. To improve the City. There is traffic chaos. They are shutting essential roads, The emissions are the highest in the UK. The administration is totally despised for their corruption.

    The Green is responsible along with the unionists enabling them to cut the essential services and education funding and illegally spending it on a groteque carbuncle and wasting £Millions of public on a total non mandate mess.

    Ron Greer than uses out of date irrelevant figures to attack the SNP educational policies. The SNP has to try and get the funding to the schools bypassing the council (green) total neglect and mismanagement. Greer calls this centralisation. The Green try and blame the SNP Gov of events that are happening because of Green representatives. The Greens are an ignorant arrogant threat to Independence with their total mess and duplicity. A total disgrace. Greer is blaming the SNP – Swinney for the actions and the duplicity of the Green Party at local level. If the green had voted with the SNP group none of this would have hapened. Schools and essential services would have been properly funded and protected. £Millions/Billions of public money would not have been borrowed and wasted. Put the City into £MillionsBillions of debt which will have to be sorted out.

    They ignore all their own policies and principles at will and illegally waste £Million/Billions of public money at every opportunity. Never being held to account. They think people will not notice but they do. Who holds them to account?

  267. stu mac

    Stuff in news today about Swinney being attacked over teacher shortages in education. It annoyed me that the National’s report (looked short so maybe this is due to lack of staff but on the other hand non-expert me found a few things in 5 minutes surely they could.

    From in 2009. Loss of almost 1000 teachers (2009) But falling pupil numbers meant the child-to-teacher ratio remained steady, at 13:1.

    Then I looked for more recent figures:

    All publicly funded – Teacher-Pupil ratios
    13.3 (2010)
    13.7 (2016)

    Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable than me on this (can’t be hard) can explain more clearly what this means. To me it seems that yes we have fewer teachers but it hasn’t affected teacher-pupil ratios all that much (0.6 increase over 8 years – from 2009 – during a period when government funding has been severely cut due to UK austerity policies.

    At the time of the initial loss of teachers pupil numbers dropped so the ratio remained what it was before and, I would guess that the main reason we need more teachers is that pupil numbers are rising again (but due to previous drop I surmise the required teachers to maintain the ratio were either not produced or found work elsewhere, but I could easily be mistaken in that).

    That doesn’t mean of course that we don’t need more teachers: if the ratio was a bit lower before, we should try to get back to that. But I appreciate finances are tight for obvious reasons. I am a bit disappointed though that Swinney doesn’t appear to be taking some action on this even if he hasn’t the cash to make a huge difference. Of course that may not be the case and he is but it’s just not being reported.

    Would appreciate some comment on this as I accept I’m no expert and this is a topic which the opposition has been pushing very heavily recently.

  268. Robert Peffers

    Just for the record here is a link to the current state of the Scottish MPs at Westminster :-

    From this list anyone can see the truth.
    there are four exceptions in the solid SNP majority:-

    Natalie McGary; Michelle Thompson; Ian Murray and Alistair Carmichael.

    The first two are SNP but standing as independents pending satisfactory conclusions to Westminster accusations of Wrongdoing being proven wrong and the latter two are flying false flags. Murray is a Tory flying a Labour Flag but prone to wearing a Butcher’s Apron jacket – which jacket is at present hung upon a rather shooglie peg and Carmichael is a legally proven liar flying a LibDem Flag.

    Significantly the LibDems have not openly condemned Carmichael for lying to both the Scottish electorate and to both the Westminster and Scottish parliaments.

    Perhaps this is LibDem party policy along with not paying Police Scotland for providing security cover for their Scottish Party Conferences.

  269. liz

    @Effigy- don’t forget the ‘audience’at BBCQT is hand picked by an extreme right wing supporter, the producer, of Britain first.

    She was outed some time back and a prominent LBGTI member stopped his licence fee and broadcast it to his many followers.

    I believe the audience in Glasgow was quite balanced last time because social media ripped BBCQT apart,with humour, the day before.

    So they knew they couldn’t get away with a very biased audience.
    Support for indy in Wales is on the increase, hence Project fear will be used there as well.

    As for ill-informed reps of SNP, I agree they need to be more prepared for curved balls but Robinson is an arrogant arse

  270. ronnie anderson

    I see that once again the topic of conversation’s are on Troll’s , i might be reading to much into their posts ie trolling for information . As the biggest internet site for Independence would it not be reasonable for Journalist’s & Political Strategists to gleen information into the mindset of Us politically aware & politically active campaigners to be used against us.

    Pause for thought People . Do you need to Engage.

    My time is to valuable to waste on troll’s whither thats in intelligent discourse or stupid comments. I would ask all you WINGERS once again to Disengage & free this site from the Unionist Bilge Brigade .

  271. heedtracker

    Mike says:
    24 March, 2017 at 9:56 am
    Love the fact that the so called deficit claims are being ripped to fuck on Twitter

    Its not only showed that GERS is a load of shite, its that everything produced by Westminster has got to be questioned.

    Why are they dumping near 60% of their defict on 16% of teamGB?

    If you’re still creeping about sensibledave, it’d be great to hear from a high tory cybdergimp like you, concerning this rather massive UKOK con on Scots.

    But you wont will you sensible, that’s not your job.

  272. stu mac

    Meant to add I surmise pupil numbers rising because during time of SNP government Scottish population has grown.

  273. Bob Mack

    @Stu mac,

    Again, do not let the Unionists set the agenda. Compare Scotland with what is happening in England. There they are talking about laying teachers off and reducing the school week to four days. Add to this preferential treatment for grammar schools and reducing budgets for comprehensives,

    Give them your facts rather than listen to theirs, Time to fight back and control the limits of the argument

  274. DerekM

    Jings do the yoons better together gers scribblers not understand that they are poking the wrong guy.

    The prof will rip them a new one,he must be running some kind of social experiment the investigation into economic figures made up by idiots who believe the figures are accurate.

    I guess it is better than watching sterling turn into toilet paper as the UK does what can only be described as economic madness.

  275. stu mac


    What local authority are you referring to?

  276. heedtracker

    Its got the attention of a big schlub, very much enjoying his BetterTogether dosh in a lovely Glasgow suburb.

    Blair McDougall Retweeted
    Blair McDougall?Verified account @blairmcdougall 11h11 hours ago

    Latest GERS denying nonsense. Think about it & the maths don’t support conclusion: if rUK had a perfectly balanced budget… 1/2

    Blair McDougall?Verified account @blairmcdougall 11h11 hours ago
    2/2 … and Scotland had a deficit of 1p then 100% of UK deficit would be Scottish. It’s why you compare deficit as % of GDP.

    You see! DO you SEE! NOW!

    Don’t talk back, Bliar’s got a pedicure at 12 and then lunch with the girls.

  277. Scot Finlayson

    @Reluctant Nationalist

    all `live` TV/Radio interviews,phone-ins,panel shows whether politics,sport,comedy or reality show are either scripted or interviewee/caller/panel member are informed about subject and direction of discussion/question,

    like PMQ`s or FMQ`s the leaders are shown the question that are going to be asked well in advance,

    it is easy for BBC to give some people a little bit more time or information to prepare themselves thus making the other person look slow and uninformed.

  278. Dave McEwan Hill

    It is interesting to note that the teacher/pupil ratio in England is 1/27.

    At the EIS Fringe meting at SNP conference the business was dominated by a lacerating attack by Larry Flanagan on the Tories and Labour on their lies about Scottish education and their attacks on all those who work in the education sector which is now producing its best ever results. Oddly no newspaper reported this even the Sunday Herald which asked questions at the event.

  279. Ken500

    Whisky companies have been using Scottish assets, water and barley etc. They tax evade and pay no tax on massive profits, under UK tax regime. That is why they support NO in the IndyRef. They wanted to keep illegally tax evading. Some Trade Union leaders collude with employers against their members interest. Irrational people. Industrial history is full of examples. They write books about it. In Scotland some Trade unions policy decisions damaged the Scottish economy. They support Labour/Unionist bad decisions and increased poverty. Fifty years of lying Labour.

    Some Trade Union leaders illegally funded Political Parties to engage in illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud. Damaging their members lives, wotking conditions and living standards. Increasing the cost of living and low wages. Some Trade Union leaders use £Millions of their members money to support illegal wars killing and maining millions of innocent people causing the worst migration crisis since 11WW. Illegal crimes against humanity. Some Trade Union leaders complain about the migration they have created and support Brexit which will damage their members rights even further. Damage British industry, working conditions and increase unemployment. Damaging the British economy.

  280. Robert Peffers

    @schrodingers cat says: 23 March, 2017 at 9:45 pm:

    ” … if next week treeza says no, does anyone think the un or the eu will intervene?”

    Why would they? Far as I know no one has yet asked them to stick their oars in. In any case, unless I have spectacularly misread the situation, Nicola and the Scottish Government have no intention of NOT holding an indyref2 and they seem to consider they do not need the English Government’s Prime minister’s permission to hold referendums.

    Matter of fact a Section 30 Order is NOT the English Government’s permission because it is only a two way agreement by both signatories to legally abide by the results of any particular referendum.

    The legal point of referendums is that these are NOT normally binding upon those holding the referendum as referendums are only a means of consultation by governments to find out what the governed people think on particular matters.

    You should read the above as the SNP can legally run a referendum if and when they please and don’t give a damn it Theresa May and Westminster abides by the results or not.

    In practice it makes no difference anyway. However, here’s another fact. If Westminster attempts to prevent the SG from holding a legal referendum it very may well provide grounds for requests for the EU and UN and other international organisations to intervene.

    Any attempt to prevent such a consultative referendum by any government is proof positive of a breach of human rights that almost every international organisation, including the UK government, has signed up to upholding.

    Ms May could well have, (yet again), made a grave error of judgement.

  281. heedtracker

    Watched this too, Ligger knows how to please his tory masters, but best just let the tories get on with it, for ever and ever and a day.

  282. Lenny Hartley

    Robert Peffers, the problem is if they don’t have the powers devolved to hold a referendum under section 30 , then legal challenges will delay any intervention by outside agency’s such as the UN.

  283. Breeks

    From Robert Peffers…

    “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.

    When Unionists like Mundell are saying this, I think it was Derek Bateman who flagged up the argument that if Scotland and England were both extinguished by the Act of Union, then professing that is so means you forfeit the claim to be Scottish. By your own words, your “Scottish” country doesn’t exist, so you are UK or British. You cannot be Scottish, (nor indeed can you be English). You are a North Britisher like Gordon Brown, and you have no right to carry the Saltire as your flag.

    Alternatively, you know the truth full well and you are a liar, a disingenuous fraud who will say and do anything to keep Scotland subjugated by Westminster’s mendacity, and denied the protection of our sovereign Scottish legitimacy.

    I appeal to all proponents of Scottish Independence, especially our Scottish government; there is more at stake here than any democratic result of a referendum. There is the legal legitimacy, precedent, and provenance which enshrines Scotland’s sovereignty with its people. It is NOT democracy threatening to set this legitimacy aside, and conduct its affairs as if Scotland didn’t exist, it is an act of illegitimate political subjugation affected by Westminster, and it is OUTSIDE the law in doing so.

    The thief is not only keeping what he has stolen, he is claiming his possession of it marks his ownership of it. You do not apprehend a thief and resolve such misappropriation of your property by having a vote on it, you invoke the Law to uphold justice and take back what properly belongs to you.

    We need neither a referendum, nor a UDI; we need, and should demand, a Judicial Review of Scotland’s constitutional legitimacy, the UK’s constitutional illegitimacy, and secure International recognition of that vital distinction. Neither UDI nor IndyRef, but Independence by legal edict.

    It is not an issue which democratic process can resolve, and it requires no political mandate or majority to be set in motion. It is a binary, yes/no, on/off, black/white condition, which is being corrupted and obscured by superfluous political manoeuvring.

    I might be wrong in this last paragraph, but only so far as our SNP government’s campaigning is superfluous. They are playing the game, safe in the knowledge they are going to prevail, but they see their challenge as securing a consensual victory, essentially to sugar the pill of Scottish sovereignty for those who might find it bitter. Sometimes that makes the process frustrating and pedestrian to folks like you and I, and I bite my tongue. Trust Nicola.

    The question I have, is when does the SNP, and Nicola herself, start to use the vocabulary of sovereign legitimacy and legality precedence? It “feels” like the end-game is almost upon us, and yet we are still preoccupied with a referendum and debate surely compromised by febrile Unionist propaganda.

    Some say Scotland’s indulgence of EEA membership was a faux compromise that never stood a chance of happening but secured tremendous moral entitlement for our Scottish Government to fight for full EU membership. Saying NO! to EEA empowers the Scot Gov as flexible and innovative, and labels Westminster intransigent. I am actually wondering if this whole ScotRef is a similar exercise. It’s a democratic result we don’t technically need, but moral capital by the spadeful, as and when Westminster moves to block it.

    I know, Nicola said the matter of Brexit might be resolved in a constitutional court case. But has it begun? Is the process in motion! What are we still waiting for? A little more hubris from Theresa May? A little more pain from Brexit? The end is drawing closer…The tipping point approaches.

  284. Peter McCulloch

    I noticed in today’s daily stranger, which I had a scan through before putting it back on the newspaper stand.

    That Tory Kevin Hague is attacking SNP MSP Joan McAlpine for rubbishing what he claims are her own Government’s GERS figures.

  285. Ken500

    The Pet salesman is telling lies about the Scottish economy for money. He is so useless he can’t make money out of selling dog poo. He can’t count or read a balance sheet. That is why he is practically bankrupt. He can make money out of telling lies and issued false statistics/graphs on the internet. He wants attention and free publicity. To wind people up and annoy them. He succeeded in putting folk off the UK economic policies. Increasing support for Independence. He hasn’t got a clue about the UK deficit. Any publicity is better than no publicity. Increased funding for Stu and Independence. Thanks.

  286. Ozymandias

    Nothing seems more perverse to me than when politicians in the Scottish Parliament speak in favour of remaining in thrall to Westminster. It’s like watching Stockholm syndrome on a vast scale. Even the most casual reading of Scottish History would quickly inform the reader that Scotland’s biggest issue, has been the obsession of English rulers to a) have ‘overlordship’ over Scotland and b) to buy off Scottish nobles/merchants/oligarchs in order to support a). It’s on par with that oxymoron, the “Scottish Tory”. Oh and I am English born and bred, but a European heart and soul, (Soon to be living near Bannockburn!).

  287. Robert Peffers

    @heedtracker says: 24 March, 2017 at 11:18 am:

    Watched it. Neil has so many Westminster lies, misdirection’s and myths there that I’m not about to waste much time refuting them. Suffice to say his opening gambit, “This is the country that stood alone …”. Is the purest of pure fiction.

    Neither Great Britain, Britain nor the United Kingdom are countries in their own right and even if he meant England that too is and was a part of the United Kingdom but that too is not a country and as a kingdom is a bipartite kingdom – not a country. Furthermore, and I was there at that time, Neither England nor the United Kingdom stood alone.

    The Allies were the Entire British Commonwealth/Empire of nations/countries and the Free French, Free Poles and several other free peoples from European countries.

    “The country that stood alone”, is utter & total Westminster unionist bovine sphinctered waste matter.

  288. Mike

    “On this thread, my frustration is based upon my perception that many Wings contributors are so passionate, so determined and committed – and yet so lacking in an ability to even try to analyse events or positions being taken.”

    No you’re just too corrupt and dishonest to admit and acknowledge analysis and positions which successfully counter your own worthless wilful gibbering.

    “Based upon the comments from most here, the coming vote in Holyrood is seen as the next stage in automatic process to a win”

    We cant get into a position to win if there is no next stage that leads to a win so if we end up at a stage where we will win then it will be automatic.

    “If an advisory referendum does go ahead,what will ms may do? Will she tell everyone to just abstain because the result will not be accepted at this time. What would the result of an advisory referendum be in those circumstances. Where would that leave ms sturgeon and the cause for Scottish independence? Etc, etc.”

    You’re highlighting problems that Teresa May will have to deal with and trying to pretend they are problems for Nicola Sturgeon.
    You’re pretending the consequences are all one sided and wont adversely affect the position of the UK Government or the UK State itself.
    If Teresa May makes a takes a wrong step or makes a wrong call then the consequences will be on her not on her opponents.

    You done fooling yourself?

  289. Ken500

    @ Local authority Aberdeen City Council. Willy Young. The ‘green’ do it in other councils too. Aberdeenshire. Wasted £Miliins/Billions of public money in protests etc damaging the local economy. Supporting and getting funding from landowners. To stop land coming back into public use. How hypocritical is that. A so called ‘green’. Blocked essential road AWPR. Blocked expansion of the airport – no international flights. Meant more connecting flight. Making longer journeys. Putting up emission. Direct quicker flights mean less emissions. More public money wasted. Blocked essential house building. Stopped Golf Development. Green open spaces and leisure facilities. Heathy pursuits. Wasting public money. Putting up emissions etc. Cycle lanes not being frequently used. Waste of public money.

    They have done it in Edinburgh City Council as well. Trams etc. They do not allow OAP (bus) travel passes on the trams. Going under passengers capacity at off peak times but do not allow OAP (bus) travel passes. So more buses have to be run wasting public money. Airport bus £12 return. They take OAP bus passes. More buses have to be provided. It is quicker. Trams £8 return – priced too low. The wealthiest City in Scotland. ECC has subsidised public transport. Wasting public money by not intergrating services. No coherent policy. Trams are a tourist attraction but another kind of system (Alex Salmond) outdoor have been more suitable and cost a lot less for the full intended line. From Leith to the airport. Leith would have benefitted considerable from economic expansion. The trams are great but the administration was/is pathetic. It should be sorted out for maximum benefit to the City. Main tourist destination in the world etc,

  290. yesindyref2

    There are about 1.8 million YES voters,
    130,000 SNP members
    around 20,000 members of SGP, SSP, RISE
    around 10,000 non-alinged activists

    Daily sales of The National down from 20,000 to 8,500.

    Use it or lose it.

  291. yesindyref2

    That’s “Ther National”.

    The only Independence supporting newspaper in Scotland.

    A newspaper that has articles you won’t see anywhere else with the good news about Scotland, with contributors who support Independence like

    Rev Stuart Campbell (once) of Wings Over Scotalnd
    James Kelly of Scot Goes Pop
    Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp of Business for Scotland – all members YES
    Lesley Riddoch – YES
    Wee Ginger Dug – YES
    Richard Murphy – GERS Denier
    Mark Littlewood – Dimbleby’s nemesis
    Greg Moodie – YES cartoonist
    X Wings – crossword compiler
    many others, my apologies

    Use it or lose it. Buy it or cry it when it’s gone.

  292. HandandShrimp

    I occasionally see Tweets on Stu’s feed above and it would seem that guy whose name is full of stars gets awfully upset that….

    1) Few read his blog
    2) Actual economists question his interpretation
    3) People don’t take him all that seriously (apart from a few Yoons, who let’s face don’t have a lot of ports in the storm to choose from.)

    Derived apportionments from the Treasury to calculate a notional spread of expenditure and receipts do not an economy make. These nevertheless are published each year as an exercise in “transparency”. Like a cheap suit they fit where they touch…that goes for CRA data too and I have in my time had a hand in compiling some of that. It is better than nothing and if nothing else you can use it to look at year on year trends…assuming departments haven’t changed the way they compile the data (which invariably happens at some point).

    However, an actual economy with its own currency and borrowing and foreign exchange and balance of payments is a mightily different beast and it is a stretch of the imagination to go from GERS to such a thing. Kev’s position is political not economic. That is fine but his stage turns should be viewed as political polemic rather than academic forecasts of a future independent Scottish economy. To make such a forecast would be a hard call for a team of seasoned professional economists. There are simply too many variables and potential world events to make a truly accurate call of the future for any economy and that includes the UK and Brexit (it could be better or far worse than people think).

    Scotland has the people, the resources, the developed first world economy, the infrastructure and the mature markets to make a successful go at it. Success or failure would be down the willingness or otherwise of the Scottish people. If Kev’s argument is that we would be too rubbish to make it work then that is fair enough. He would be in line with Struth Haribo’s assertion that 90% of Scots are wasters and would tie in with the general Tory line that we are all a bit rubbish.

  293. call me dave

    I have an avid ‘Daily Express’ reader (80yrs+) who I usually sit adjacent to at the local cafe in the morning. We have often talked about this and that in a general way for about 5 years.

    For the last two days she has been ranting about ‘London’. Pointing out the headlines and pictures across to me from the next table.

    Furreners! Why are the coming over here! I’m not racist but etc etc. Too dangerous in the UK now.

    I thought I had got her to quieten down and reflect a bit yesterday by asking her why ‘those people’ might be doing these things. Blank stare!

    Also mentioned the 70s and 80s when we had trouble with the IRA to no avail.

    She had no concept of UK connections to wars in foreign countries or had read reports of bombing schools and hospitals there.

    Today she was moaning that the medical staff should have left the perpetrator to die and not treated him!
    I asked “why would they do that” Blank stare.

    I also pointed out the the man in question was not a furrener as she had said previously. She was not having it! 🙁

    There you go!… She seems to be able to spend one-sided coins in the shops as well.

    I must add that what happened in London was terrible and I do not condone anything to do with it. I’m 71 and not knocking people of her age either.

    I also heard Andrew Neil on Big Aunties radio this morning and cringed… Jeez!

    @ronnie anderson

    Aye too much ping pong across Hadrian’s wall. 🙂

  294. Robert Peffers

    @Lenny Hartley says: 24 March, 2017 at 11:21 am:

    “Robert Peffers, the problem is if they don’t have the powers devolved to hold a referendum under section 30 , then legal challenges will delay any intervention by outside agency’s such as the UN.”

    Sheesh! Don’t you ever listen? A Section 30 Order has no legal power whatsoever to prevent anyone holding a referendum.

    The Section 30 is only a two way agreement between the signatory parties to legally abide by the result of a particular referendum.

    The last Section 30 was signed by Cameron and Salmond who negotiated the terms that both sides agreed to abide by. For example the wording of the question(s), to be asked.

    If these two signatories on behalf of their respective parliaments could not agree of anything it could not have stopped the referendum going ahead. All it could have done was given Westminster the chance to not implement whatever the result happened to be.

    The point now is that it will be a great benefit if MAY refuses to agree to recognise the result if Scots vote for independence.

    Furthermore, it will be grounds for the EU and/or the UN to intervene on the grounds that the Westminster actions in disregarding the free and democratic choice of a majority of the Scottish electorates is being disregarded by Westminster and thus breaking treaty agreements on Human rights that the UK has signed up to with both those international organisations.

    It might just be the very action needed to give us a short cut to Scottish independence. Not least as it would very likely put up the backs of many Scottish fence sitters. We Scots don’t like being told we cannot do something by the de facto parliament of England.

  295. K1

    It’s funny really isn’t it, they gave us the poll tax and we fucked Thatcher for it…ultimately. That’s the thing about the wee Tory britnats they have no recollection of ‘events’ and an over inflated sense of their own ‘prowesss’…laugh out loud.

  296. manandboy

    So for the past 5 years, the UK Government repeatedly tells everyone on earth via the British State Propaganda Corporation & 99% of the Press, that that there is very very little oil left around Scotland, but then, on offering a new batch of exploration licences, a flood of applications from drilling companies is received.

    Dear No Voters, do you think you may have been consistently lied to about oil by Westminster these past 5 years.

    And do you think the UK Government is likely to be truthful about everything else it claims is bad about Scotland?

  297. ronnie anderson

    @ call me dave Ah think we’ll be getting mair Pong than Ping lol

  298. Robert Peffers

    Allow me to further attempt to clear up this Section 30 thing.

    The quote below is made by Stephen Tierney of the UCL, “Constitution Unit”.(UCL is one of the world’s leading universities, founded in London to open up education to all on equal terms).

    The bold bits in the quote are mine.

    “Whether the Scottish Parliament can unilaterally hold an ‘advisory’ referendum on this issue has never been finally resolved.

    But it seems clear that the Scottish government does not propose to test this issue; instead it will seek the consent of Westminster to a so-called Section 30 Order, thereby ensuring that the UK government will have to accept the referendum result.

    Being a London University set-up we must expect to be very careful reading what they say. So they are, while trying not to say so in so many words telling the truth.

    There is indeed a legal distinction between an “advisory”, referendum and a, “legally binding referendum”. The legal question has never been resolved in court but the good reason it has not is because it is quite plain what the Section 30 Order is.

    The good reason the SG seeks the consent of Westminster is they hope that Westminster will attempt to prevent it and thus break all the terms of the several organisations the UK Government has signed up to that contain Human Rights clauses.

    i.e. That all groups recognisable as separate units, (within whatever larger unit), have a legal right to self determination.

    It is why the United Kingdom had to accept devolution. Which, BTW, is a very questionable form of devolution because there is no elected parliament of England and Westminster is thus the, (not elected as such), de facto parliament of England that has assumed for itself to be the master race and the rest of the UK its dominions. I have no doubt that the EU & UN for two examples know this full well. However, the will not interfere in a state’s business unless a section thereof claims their human rights of self-determination.

    Which is exactly what an independence referendum is. So we need a democratic majority of Scots seeking independence and giving a recognised democratically elected parliament to do both the referendum and the subsequent request to leave the union.

    This is exactly what Westminster itself has done with Brexit. Yet Westminster is attempting to brainwash Scots that they need a Section 30 order from Westminster to do the same.

    Did you notice the Westminster’s request to the EU to hold a referendum to exit the EU?

    No! Aye! Me too. They didn’t ask but they expect the SG to be required to do so. All of which, from an outsiders POV, is grist to the mill of Scottish Independence,

  299. schrodingers cat

    bob peffers

    Any attempt to prevent such a consultative referendum by any government is proof positive of a breach of human rights that almost every international organisation, including the UK government, has signed up to upholding.

    it will be grounds for the EU and/or the UN to intervene on the grounds that the Westminster actions in disregarding the free and democratic choice of a majority of the Scottish electorates is being disregarded by Westminster and thus breaking treaty agreements on Human rights that the UK has signed up to with both those international organisations.

    I hope you are right, but i wouldnt bank on it, spain also signed such agreements, but the eu and the uk (and holyrood) ignored catalonia.

    I know scotlands situation isnt the same but getting bogged down in legal disputes for a generation isnt an option and until it is resolved i doubt we will get much help from the eu or the un.

    The eu wouldnt even throw us a crumb during indyref1 and that had an agreed section 30

    I have worked with the UN forces many times and when it is politically expedient they frequently ignore such treaty agreements, ask anyone who ever served with them what they think of the sky blue beret

    The idea they will intercede on scotlands behalf against the wishes of the UK, one of the 5 permanent members of the security council, is fanciful.

    far more relevent to our situation is
    1. the vast majority of english people couldnt care what scotland does or does not do
    2. a sizable majority support scottish independence
    3. a sizable majority want shot of scotland
    4. those who do want to thwart scotlands attempt to become independent are few and far between with little support across the country

    unfortunately our main opponents are in the bbc and the government but are very vunerable at the moment,

  300. HandandShrimp


    I would agree that we could expect nothing from the UN. It is a talking shop and more gets vetoed than not. No one pays much mind to its resolutions any way.

    The EU I don’t know, there we have friends but Juncker? I am not sure if he cares for any part of the UK. He was certainly exceptionally hostile last time. If there is German pressure he may relent though. In the short term EFTA may prove an easier route to the single market. However, the EU is quite different from the UN. It is capable of simply doing something and doing it quickly when it wants. It is pragmatic and surprisingly agile.

  301. Rock


    “There are about 1.8 million YES voters,
    130,000 SNP members
    around 20,000 members of SGP, SSP, RISE
    around 10,000 non-alinged activists

    Daily sales of The National down from 20,000 to 8,500.”

    The more alert independence supporters soon saw right through The National’s fake support for independence.

    The most gullible 8,500 continue to indirectly feed the venomous The Herald while not having much money to support the genuine independence supporting WOS:


    “To pick up what Rev says, all I gave was £5, and posted as much on the first thread.

    Am I ashamed it’s so little? Why should I be? It’s all I can afford at the moment.”

  302. Brian Doonthetoon

    Isn’t it strange that a professed Yesser can have such a bee in her/his bonnet about the pecuniary situation of another Yesser?


  303. Polscot

    bjsalba says:

    What would you have had her say? Did you want her to rebutt his points one by one in order?

    He was prepared by experts.

    No matter how well she is prepared, it would be impossible to rebutt his points in that fashion without having advance knowledge of what he was going to say.

    Be reasonable.

    I know I am coming back to the convo a bit late and probably on the wrong thread now, but I still feel that too many times we miss an open goal.

    You ask what I would have them do, the answer is “prepare”. Benjamin Franklin, who went from Britnat zoomer to rabid USA separatist, said “fail to prepare, prepare to fail”. It takes hard work to prepare, but the rewards are there.

    As I stated in my post earlier, there are a limited number of regular points that the liggers raise, it is easy to prepare answers and refute the paradigm. I recall seeing one interview with Rev Stu in the lead up to Indyref 1 where he knew every fact and figure and had obviously prepared well in advance. The interviewer couldn’t lay a glove on him because he was prepared.

    SG ministers aren’t working on their own, they have researchers who can prepare them in advance, rehearse, practise, work on answering until it is second nature to play word bingo or number wang with the ligger. Not difficult, but requires work. They don’t have to rebut points one-by-one but don’t be driven by the ligger’s agenda.

    I don’t believe that I am being unreasonable in expecting to see an increasingly more professional approach to media interviews by Scottish Government representatives.

  304. Rock

    Brian Doonthetoon,

    “Isn’t it strange that a professed Yesser can have such a bee in her/his bonnet about the pecuniary situation of another Yesser?


    Yes, strange:

    “Brian Doonthetoon,

    “Is it your time of the month?”

  305. Dave McEwan Hill

    yesindyref2 at 12.15 pm

    You can add George Kerevan, Pat Kane, Mahiri Black, Kevin McKenna Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, Ross Greer to the list of independence supporters who feature weekly in the National.

  306. DHall

    If T May decides to simply reject the Scottish parliaments vote for a second referendum, then that fundamentally amounts to Scotland no longer having any legal or democratic right to withdraw from a union which was originally formed via a ‘voluntary’ basis. Point being, that if any party in such a voluntary union can be denied the right and ability to leave by their own volition, then the act of Union as it was and is known surely becomes defunct.
    If T May does indeed intend to ignore/deny Scotland’s right to self determination, it would surely be tantamount to ripping up the Act of Union. Scotland would in effect have no mechanism to continue as a member in a voluntary basis, as a consequence completely undermining the principals inwhich the union was founded.

  307. Harmlessdrudge

    I’ve started showing up here with popcorn.

    I’m Irish. lived in Scotland for 5 years (among many other places). Couldn’t be more pro Scottish independence. I’m very much enjoying the atmosphere here, which is in such contrast to that below the line in parts south.

    I couldn’t stand to watch the BBC News at 10 this evening; had enough brexit to last a lifetime already. I’d prefer to be woken when it’s over; it’s just too slow a car crash to be able to watch.

    But I did catch a few seconds when I unmuted briefly of an old man saying that the UK would be fine as it always had been for I forget how long, and then he went on to say how “loved” the British (by which he meant the English) were all over the world. It was Sally Fields level cringeworthy (and remuted immediately; there’s only so much drool one can put up with).

    I have traveled widely for a long time. Occasionally I have been told there’s no room at the inn (or the restaurant is now closed or what have you). The English haven’t the faintest idea what doors an Irish passport opens in such circumstances. We shouldn’t welcome any competition from the Scots but… I do, gladly!

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