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Wings Over Scotland


The Symbolist

Posted on May 09, 2024 by

Comment seems superfluous, really.

So we’ll just make a couple of the obvious points for the sake of it and then we’re off to the park.

(1) As we told you yesterday, the Scottish Government/Parliament has, by the express and deliberate nature of its design, basically zero control over the economy.

(2) In so far as it does have any minor ability to tinker around the edges, it’s one of the responsibilities of the Finance Secretary (whose official title is “Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy of Scotland”), though now it’s been sliced off and handed to Kate Forbes, who used to do the whole job but now only has to handle a wee bit of it.

(3) With the economy now having its very own dedicated (albeit powerless) minister, it’s already getting extra focus, so why would the role of Minister For Independence need to be abolished? (It’s not to save money, as Jamie Hepburn hasn’t been hoofed to the backbenches, just moved to Minister For Parliamentary Business.)

Hepburn’s role of course was purely symbolic and he was a useless haddie anyway, but the fundamental problem when you create a purely symbolic office to supposedly demonstrate your priorities is that the destruction of it then becomes symbolic too. And it’s not too hard to decipher what the symbolism is this time around.

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0 to “The Symbolist”

  1. Jason Smoothpiece
    Ignored
    says:

    Why would a party commuted to devolution have a minister for independence?

    Independence is what you want? That will be Alba you are looking for.

  2. Jason Smoothpiece
    Ignored
    says:

    Committed to that should read

  3. Andy Anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Focus on the economy!!
    Does he not realise that independence will give Scotland full control of the economy. They must think we are all stupid,

  4. Vivian O’Blivion
    Ignored
    says:

    Hepburn’s remit has been slimmed down, unlike his wardrobe over the last year. Jamie sure does like his gravy.

  5. Robert McAllan
    Ignored
    says:

    ‘Comment seems superfluous’. Aye a bit like like Forbes, Hepburn and the SNP in Scotland’s fight to free the colonists shackles.
    #End The Union!!

  6. SteepBrae
    Ignored
    says:

    They care not a jot.

    Does anyone still plan on voting for this?

  7. Dickie
    Ignored
    says:

    Of course when the economy starts booming, as it will in the next cycle, the Yoons will be claiming that it all because of the strength of the Union.

    That said the “Westminster bad” tactic has failed miserably. The worst and nastiest Tory party in decades, Brexit, Johnson, Truss, Braverman, the threat of Reform etc etc etc and not a single point movement in support for independence.

    Dammed if they do, damned if they don’t.

  8. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    It may be symbolic but it’s surely worth more to the British state than the dosh McConnell handed back to the treasury.

    🙁

  9. duncanio
    Ignored
    says:

    Hepburn is Swinney’s dogsbody – a good fit.

  10. Antoine Roquentin
    Ignored
    says:

    With no powers worth the name, the man is either living in dreamland or attempting to have everyone forget about independence, or both. His predictable failure in the economic-sphere can be ascribed to Forbes, of course. Hardly, I realise, an original prognosis, but hey, it’s the SNP we’re talking about here.

  11. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    “the Scottish Government/Parliament has, by the express and deliberate nature of its design, basically zero control over the economy.”

    You’ve just described a colonial economy, Rev. For 300+ years Scotland has been controlled and plundered by another country and another culture, our nation left to wither. Which is why half our people were either removed or left, and half of those remaining live in or close to poverty, whilst our infrastructure and public services look more like eastern Europe than our nearest nordic neighbours.

    But at least we can estimate the value of that plunder, which is at least £150 billion per year today based on GDP-per-capita analyses; and its good to know this for whenever the matter of imperial plunder ‘reparations’ comes up, which it will, as soon as we reclaim oor soveranety:

    https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2024/03/19/the-real-economic-price-of-the-uk-union-for-scots/

  12. Geoff Anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    The role of “Minister of Independence” was vote harvesting once again. It was merely another use of the Carrot technique.

    Murrell Enterprise Ponzi scheme is about the Business continuation. They need to harvest the votes to get the seats to earn the short money. Devolution is the best model to maximise income and longevity of careers.

    They will pretend to listen, they will pretend to compromise but the simple reality is that the old SNP has gone. Nothing personal…..just Business as the Mafia say.

  13. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    This focus on promoting EU membership and Freeports in Scotland by the SNP seems highly suspicious. Straight out of the colonial drawer, methinks. A good earner for someone but not ordinary workers. I can’t vote for this nonsense.

  14. Peter S.
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland may have little control over the economy at large but the Scottish Government has plenty enough control to make Scotland a less attractive place for doing business, with higher and more complicated taxes, more regulations and so on. Any business looking to start something new in Scotland has also the rest of the UK available for comparison – and some will naturally decide to go elsewhere, or do most of their business outside of Scotland.

    So however bad Westminster is, let’s not let Holyrood off the hook.

  15. Patsy Millar
    Ignored
    says:

    Crowd of chancers.

  16. Patsy Millar
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry, should’ve have said ‘useless chancers’

  17. Chris Avery
    Ignored
    says:

    I predict a record low turnout in Scotland at the next election.

    A great number of the electorate will have no one to vote for.

  18. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    I disagree that Holyrood has “basically zero control over the economy”. They have (and have used) income tax raising powers (as well as other very important aspects of taxation e.g. Land & Buildings Transaction Tax, certain environmental taxes, alcohol minimum pricing etc.). Clearly, there’s a reason why the hapless Scottish taxpayer has to stump up even more than his English counterparts. There are, of course, many other important fully devolved powers, most notably in matters of both education and health, which, again, are hardly trivial.

    Frankly, I find it a bit of a cop out when people (in effect) claim that none of the blame for Scotland’s manifest woes can be laid at its own door? Cripes, there’s enough of that sentiment – day in and day out (ad nauseam) in the BTL comments here. The reality though, in my opinion, is that there are plenty of cases where Scotland’s home grown political “talent” has made a right royal fist of things, including in matters of the economy. It’s surely one of the reasons why a few dozen turn up to marches where there were hundreds or thousands before; I couldn’t blame anyone with property, a career (esp. public sector), kids and/or sizeable pension pot for thinking “be careful what you wish for”.

  19. Dorothy Devine
    Ignored
    says:

    Chris Avery , I hope there is a huge turnout and innumerable spoiled ballot papers with apposite messages scrawled across them.

  20. sam
    Ignored
    says:

    @Peter S

    “..with higher and more complicated taxes, more regulations and so on.”

    Could you elaborate, please?

  21. Campbell Clansman
    Ignored
    says:

    Why would anyone want the politicians in Holyrood (or elsewhere) to “control” Scotland’s economy?
    Politicians “control” is POLITICAL. They “control” things for the benefit of themselves, not us. They act in their own self-interest, not ours. This has been the rule for the last 2500 years.
    Take a look at what the Holyrood politicians have done with, say, new ferries (cf. https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/all-about/ferry-fiasco), and ask yourself–“Do we want them controlling MORE things?”

  22. Ian McCubbin
    Ignored
    says:

    Well he didn’t take long to reassert his true views and direction. Devolved colonialism and he is the governor General.
    We know where he visited and what was discussed in his London trip last week.
    Only votes now for Independence are Alba and ISP.

  23. D Russell
    Ignored
    says:

    I doubt it was intentional, but Swinney is correct. Stop banging on about independence, and concentrate instead on creating a stable, competent economic platform. When that is achieved, you will convert the doubters. (Certainly a better policy than telling the opposition how much you despise them)

  24. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s not a shock and although the SNP needs to focus hard on improving people’s lives within the restrictions of devolution, it wouldn’t have hurt to even have some token mention of independence in there.

    One of the things Swinney could do is review everything the Greens did & see if there’s a way out, or any ability to claw back the damage they did. Certainly the £200m taken out the housing budget for cycling paths needs to be overturned. The more he distances himself from the Greens the better as I suspect there’s going to be a lot of dirt and scandals regarding the Greens to come, especially in the light of Cass and their reaction to that.

  25. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    Does he not realise that independence will give Scotland full control of the economy.

    To be fair there’s not the slightest hope in hell of independence happening until people see a competent Scottish government doing what they can to improve people’s lives. That’s one of the reasons things did get as close as they did a decade ago. People could see there was a competence in Scottish government but enough of the argument for indy wasn’t convincing to people who had some doubts, especially over currency.

  26. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    «ORWELL’s 1984 introduced the concept of doublespeak as a tool of the totalitarian regime. In the novel, the ruling party, known as The Party, used doublespeak as a means to control thought and manipulate the truth, essentially removing any word that is in someway connected to actual emotions»

    «Doublespeak is now defined as language that intentionally obscures, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words, often for political or deceptive purposes
    The motivation behind employing doublespeak is often rooted in the desire for POWER and CONTROL.
    By manipulating language, individuals, organizations, or governments can maintain authority, mislead the public, and avoid accountability. Doublespeak is a potent tool for marketing and propaganda, as it allows those in power to shape public perception without overtly lying»

    «The concept that “it’s not important what you say, but that they listen” highlights the crucial role of the audience’s interpretation and perception in communication»

    By lightyears « Global English» is now the prime language for Doublespeak discourse, beating historic NaziDeutsch and SovRusk, most «news» is cozily couched in it.
    The irony of a onetime party of national liberation employing this obfuscatory register may well be lost on the «audience».
    Just words eh!. «Independence», A double of the first class.

  27. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    Clearly, there’s a reason why the hapless Scottish taxpayer has to stump up even more than his English counterparts.

    If you’re at the level where you’re paying more tax than you would in England, then the extra tax isn’t going to hurt especially when you consider things like the cost of living in Scotland is cheaper than much of England.

    Of course people can argue til they’re blue in the face about how taxes are spent, but to sit there complaining about how awful it is being taxed more in Scotland when you’re earning more & enjoy a substantial improvement in living conditions is nonsense. Maybe even some day a Scottish government will actually enact some land reform & we can start to not just charge people/organisations buying up Scotland but also discourage the wealthy from making Scotland their own theme park.

  28. Doug
    Ignored
    says:

    Abstain at the next Westminster election – unless Alba adopts abstentionism. Get an extremely low turnout in Scotland. Make the Westminster exercise a world-wide laughing stock.

  29. Anton Decadent
    Ignored
    says:

    Independence means acknowledgement of a country, people, culture, history and identity and this flies in the face of what we are witnessing across Western nations where laws are being introduced to make people afraid of expressing who they and their ancestors are/were unless they arrived in that country half an hour ago. The SNP are a party of globalists and if we do not like them we can vote for a selection of other globalist parties, anything else is deemed unacceptable across the West. If a party such as Alba became a serious threat the other parties would probably proscribe it.

  30. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    “… but to sit there complaining about how awful it is being taxed more in Scotland when you’re earning more & enjoy a substantial improvement in living conditions is nonsense.”

    I doubt it’s “nonsense” (as you kindly put it) to the ones actually having to pay up? Seriously, you lefties are very good at spending other people’s hard-earned aren’t you…

    Just maybe, they’re “enjoying a substantial improvement in living conditions” by dint of the fact that they worked their arses off and/or took big risks, put their house on the line, studied whilst their peers were enjoying themselves and are now (justly) reaping the fruits of their labours, only to be squeezed until their pips squeak as it were.

    IMO, we need a lot more people like them on both sides of the border, and a lot less cappuccino communists.

  31. robertkknight
    Ignored
    says:

    If the SNP isn’t ‘for’ Independence, and let’s face it there’s plenty of evidence to prove it isn’t, then what exactly is it for?

    In a system where left/right/centre forms the political landscape, without a USP such as Indy, there’s no place for a 4th party.

  32. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    “I disagree that Holyrood has “basically zero control over the economy”

    That’s due to a lack of understanding of how colonialism works, or in Scotland’s case ‘internal colonialism’.

    Read Alf Baird’s book, Doun-Hauden and visit the Salvo website to get a clearer picture of how the plundering of a people and their nation is ‘engineered’.

    In the case of Scotland’s colonisation it’s essentially some sleight of hand, a whole bunch of distraction and the tellin’ o’ mony muckle lies while Scotland’s ‘hoose’ is ransacked.

    Colonialism is nae mair than common theft wrapped in a pompous imperial costume marchin’ tae the tune o’ a big brass band when it comes right doon tae it.

    Salvo proves the plunder o’ Scotland. Take a look. It’s a real eye-opener for Scots wha dinnae ken the truth.

    Salvo – The Plundering of Scotland

  33. Dick Wall
    Ignored
    says:

    Next year there will be a Labour government. There are plenty of themes that might allow Independance supporters to demonstrate to the 50% yoons that indy could be a good thing. Why not work on that. All with the added benefit of stuffing the greens. A Scotland with a sensible constitution and a 60 or 70% support.

    Just for talking sake!

  34. Boyce Frank
    Ignored
    says:

    There is another point:

    If Scotland’s economy flourishes the Unionists would say there’s no need to leave and risk it all because it happens within the union- ergo the union is good for Scotland. Why leave?

    If it fails the unionists can say Scotland’s politicians are incapable of delivering a thriving economy – ergo you need England. Why leave?

    But this was the point of devolution. It strengthens the union at the cost of independence.

  35. Republicofscotland
    Ignored
    says:

    Swinney has been bumping his gums all last week about the need for independence, yet one of the first things he does is he scraps the post of Independence Minister, okay it was all pretence anyway, Hepburn is a useless turd, but Swinney just plastered over the door a door that was already slammed tight on delivering independence.

    We really need to vote this shower of self-serving lying b*stards out of office when the time comes, starting with the GE, vote Alba or ISP instead.

    Its the same sorry old useless grifters that are running the SNP, they have absolutely no intentions of delivering indy Christ they can’t even run the country properly, since Salmond resigned the country’s went into a nosedive under Sturgeon, Yousaf and now we have the man who was Finance minster and Education minster both of which he f*cked up completely, now he’s FM, another two years of utter mismanagement are on the cards under Swinney.

  36. Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:

    SNP = SDP Scottish Devolution Party. Game over folks. Alba are going to have to front the independence movement on their own.

    This GE could put the SNP back at pre- 2007 levels.

  37. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Jock
    Ignored
    says:
    9 May, 2024 at 3:15 pm

    This GE could put the SNP back at pre- 2007 levels.

    Make that 2004 Big Jock… the year Swinney stood down as SNP Leader after driving the SNP into decline and reverse with his sparkling charisma.

  38. John C
    Ignored
    says:

    Seriously, you lefties are very good at spending other people’s hard-earned aren’t you

    The Tories have record levels of debt and very little to show for it outwith of the furlough scheme. What they’ve been incredibly good at is giving away taxpayer money to their mates and ensuring as little as possible is spent on the UK’s crumbling public services and infrastructure. Then there’s the open sore of Brexit.

    No, you ‘righties’ need to check yourselves before accusing anyone of wasting ‘other people’s money’.

  39. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    @John C

    Whataboutery/deflection, irrelevant. Besides, I’m clearly not even talking about governments, but left-leaning individuals who quite often seem to be envious of those who’ve accrued relative personal wealth by the sweat of their brows, as opposed to, say, spending all day “greetin” on the internet about their lot in life.

  40. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    John C @ 2:37 pm

    “there’s not the slightest hope in hell of independence happening until people see a competent Scottish government”

    It would be unfortunate if that were the case, because all we can ever expect with a colonial administration and its institutions which are tasked with ‘protecting the interests of the colonizer’, is a ‘mediocre meritocracy’ (Albert Memmi). And Memmi did not mean by this the national party politicians, most of whom do not even have qualifications or skills of any merit; their behaviour is simply that of ‘a gang’ which ‘feathers its nest’ (Fanon).

    Which implies that a colonial administration consists of a ‘mediocre meritocracy’ led by ‘a gang’; which explains why the Scottish Government are unable to build a ferry at reasonable cost, or a road, or much else, whilst continuing to facilitate the external plunder of our resources, meantime inflicting laws that ‘mystify’ and oppress the people and hold back the movement.

  41. sam
    Ignored
    says:

    @John C

    The Tory non- spending = austerity with stagnant wages at a time of high poverty had an effect.Decreasing life expectancy.

    “Dr David Walsh, co-author of the report and honorary senior lecturer at Glasgow University, said austerity policies have had “tragic consequences”.

    “These changes are almost unprecedented,” he said.

    “They should simply not be happening in a wealthy society such as the UK.

    “The evidence shows they are principally the result of UK Government austerity policies that have squeezed billions of pounds from public services and social security and have had a devastating impact on the lives of so many in our communities.””

  42. Grouser
    Ignored
    says:

    Those complaining about higher taxes in Scotland should remember that there are no University Fees (a saving of about £9000pa last time I looked); no rape clause for +2 children; extra payments to try to alleviate child poverty; free personal care; free bus travel for under 22 year olds and the elderly; no prescription charges and altogether a more humane approach to dealing with the disabled and disadvantaged.
    If this means nothing to complainers then move to England, forego the benefits of living in Scotland and pay less tax. And stop complaining.

  43. Ian Smith
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s nonsense to say Holyrood has little control over its economy. Energy, transport and low external costs are the lifeblood of economies

    They are managing to regulate it out of existence.

    Fracking banned, nuclear banned, oil and gas subject to as much delay and obstruction as possible, offshore wind to endless environmental and regulatory checks and review that add next to nothing but at cost, delay, and massive civil service/ngo overheads.

    Shipbuilding mismanagement, ferry mismangement, airport mismanagement, plans for additional carbon charges. Anti car policies – road building delays, ULEZ, lane closures for unproductive cycle lanes.

    Needless but botched schemes cancelled or delayed at the last momment – bottle recycling, fire alarms.

    Increased income tax burden making the country unattractive.

    It’s no coincidence that the large jump in support under Salmond coincided with basic competence.

    Christ knows what this lot would do with more control.

  44. TURABDIN
    Ignored
    says:

    «SOCIAL/DIGITAL MEDIA» have exposed what lurks under the stones of Western «americanized» so called culture.
    Many appear to enjoy what they see…many in the public sphere too.
    What is taking place in Scotland reflects that lurch away from the «noble spirit».
    Trust has certainly been thrown in trash.
    Without trust democratic governance is sham.

  45. 100%Yes
    Ignored
    says:

    The SNP Leadership and its moron followers have been following their mantra on Independence for over a decade now, even the morons surely can see the SNP is stalling or maybe not if you follow the Rag newspaper.

    We met Sturgeon on her grant Tour. We come up from England and this is true. We seen her in Edinburgh and the hall was totally full and people where calling what is the next way forward and when do we hold another referendum, even then Sturgeon answer was we had a referendum and we lost, anyone who was at that event can back up what I’m saying, I can even prove I was there I’ve got the t-shirt to prove it.

    We left the hall and was heading back to England talking about how the event had went and we both where amazed that Sturgeon had no appetite for progressing 45% even further, I’ll be honest I had stayed in England for 25yrs and you don’t get any news about Scotland in England, so seeing and listening to Sturgeon for the first time came as a real eye opener for both of us.

    Please feel free to add to the list.

    01 We’ve just had a referendum
    02 We need to persuade the no voters
    03 I’ll ask for a section 30
    04 We’ve just left the EU
    05 Covid
    06 Economy
    07 We need to wait for Brexit to happen
    08 We need to wait to see what deal the UK gets
    09 Supreme court
    10 I’ll take it to the SNP membership in January
    11 Now its March
    12 No one in the leadership knows if it’s a majority of seats or votes
    13 Its now votes, but one vote more doesn’t count
    14 Sturgeon stands down
    15 Humza Takes over
    16 I’ll tour Scotland says Humza
    17 Humza stands down
    18 Swinney is given the roll of FM with the red carpet
    19. “Because the Scottish Government believes independence offers the best future for Scotland, all Cabinet Secretaries and ministers – not just one – are responsible for helping to bring about that better future.”
    20 “As a party we will use every electoral opportunity to advance the cause. The next such opportunity will be the forthcoming UK General Election. The SNP will go into that election on a manifesto which will say on page one, line one: ‘Vote SNP for Scotland to become an independent country.’

    More Mantra from the SNP and its new leader, I know the upcoming election the SNP will stand on the ticket of vote for SNP for Indy, Well we in this house have no intention of listening to the SNP mantra and honestly believe the best thing for Scotland is the complete death of the SNP as a party.

  46. Lorna Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    The post was window dressing in any case, and a big salary for doing sweet fanny adams. Devolution can only do so much with the economy. You need all the levers of power to make difference – and, even then, you can still blow it, like Westminster.

    On top of all the levers, you need the brains and acumen to make the very best of what you have. The calibre of the people we elect after independence will decide whether we are to flounder or to thrive. Without those levers, we are going to sink.

    Politicians with certain skills and talents need to be deployed to departments that can utilize those skills and talents the right way and to have skilled and talented civil servants, too. Useless tools who think more about the gender woo and impossible climate targets are a waste of space.

    We have wasted ten years on useless and pointless delusions. You don’t save a threatened ship by sending out your own subs to torpedo it. Roadmap to independence, start getting everything we need for independence in place as far as possible, campaign for and achieve independence, declare it, start to rebuild our country. No other way. Confrontation is inevitable. Embrace it or stay at home and gies peace, SNP.

  47. Iain More
    Ignored
    says:

    I hope the SNP get exterminated at the Brit General Election. It will be 40 plus less of the Quizlings.

  48. Alf Baird
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian Smith @ 4:31 pm

    “It’s nonsense to say Holyrood has little control over its economy. Energy, transport and low external costs are the lifeblood of economies”

    No its not nonsense. Most of Scotland’s utilities in energy, ports and airports etc have been sold off by Westminster. Electricity prices in Scotland, despite being the offshore renewables energy capital of Europe, are 4 times higher than in Norway, and much higher than all other oil rich nations.

    Westminster dictates Scotland’s energy costs, which clearly makes Scotland less competitive internationally, leading to a higher cost of living and fuel poverty for many. Imagine what a sovereign Scotland might do with £100 billion a year income (2030) from offshore renewable energy via a state-owned energy company like in Norway, i.e. double the current Holyrood budget?

    https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2024/04/18/the-realities-of-an-energy-rich-scotland-plundered-under-colonial-rule/

  49. Haagsehighlander
    Ignored
    says:

    A shower o shyte raining down on Scotland

  50. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “I doubt it was intentional, but Swinney is correct. Stop banging on about independence, and concentrate instead on creating a stable, competent economic platform.”

    But you can’t, because HOLYROOD HAS NO POWERS OVER THE ECONOMY.

  51. Geri
    Ignored
    says:

    Just further confirmation that the SNP treat what voters they may have left with utter contempt.

    The only way to grow the economy is to switch off the syphon tap direct to the English treasury.

    How fucking dense does he think we are?

    Even if he did tinker – it’s only deducted without even so much as a thanks.

    We get fck all from this union but parasites.

  52. Pat Blake
    Ignored
    says:

    To say that Scotland can’t control it’s economy is only partly true. It’s true in the way cities, companies and individuals can’t control the economy but that doesn’t mean that they all have the same prosperity and that’s what people mean by a good economy. If Scotland’s businesses and people were increasing in wealth, then it would bode well for an independent Scotland. What things has the Scottish Parliament done recently to improve prosperity for businesses and individuals? Improved transport? Less red tape? Greater numbers of STEM courses and kids studying them? Cheaper energy?

  53. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    “What things has the Scottish Parliament done recently to improve prosperity for businesses and individuals? Improved transport? Less red tape? Greater numbers of STEM courses and kids studying them? Cheaper energy?”

    Agreed, but hardly surprising from such a bunch of nobodies who’ve barely had a real job between them! Seriously, what does the SNP know about the needs of business and commerce? (Less still the Scottish Greens!)

  54. Pat Blake
    Ignored
    says:

    Captain Caveman 10 May, 2024 at 12:10 pm
    “but hardly surprising from such a bunch of nobodies who’ve barely had a real job between them!”

    Unfortunately this applies to most politicians. Worse, many of them come from jobs where spending money rather than making money was their only remit. It gave them a false sense of success. No need to get value for money or achieve a goal. Spending money is the easy bit. My observation about the independence movement is it’s based around how much more money they’d have to waste.

  55. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Fallacy after fallacy after fallacy is woven through each and every ‘argument’ which either seeks to support the Union or traduce the ability of the Scots to manage their own affairs.

    These arguments are so obviously flawed it isn’t worth the effort involved in proving them erroneous.

    I suspect they aren’t meant as logical, or even rhetorical, arguments at all – just more denigration of the Scots wrapped in flimsy brown paper and tied up with string…

    Unlike the discordant sound of Unionist argument; I do like The Sound of Music – it’s one of my favourite things.

  56. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode, all you seem to do is call out unionists, telling them how terrible their arguments are but never actually refuting any of them, nor adding anything actually useful. Zzzz.

  57. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Just to be clear, I refute unionist ‘arguments’ all the time. I’m never done refuting them. I’m constantly refuting them. They’re all so…refutable.

    What I can’t do is argue against unionist arguments because unionists present nothing that could be called arguments at all.

    Wait. That’s unfair to unionists in general. Let’s say instead that those who comment on here in support of the Union as Unionists present no rational arguments – let’s call those types ‘WoS Unionists’. Because their might be unionists not on here who are perfectly rational.

    ‘WoS Unionists’ constantly attempt to ridicule the Scots with what they might believe passes for argument, but it rarely does – if ever. And as I said. I see no arguments coming from ‘WoS Unionists’, only open or very thinly disguised insult.

    Present a proper argument and not only will I instantly refute it – I’ll take it apart and hand it back dissected on a platter.

    But be warned, the end result will be further proof that Scotland is a colony and the Scots a colonised people with no control over their own nation.

  58. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    “Be warned” lol. The tension is bearable…

    Mate. The SNP – and the Scottish Greens – are self-evidently deplorable as they are ineffectual and useless. No sane, rational, fair-minded person of either an Indy or Unionist perspective could reasonably disagree- but they excludes you, it would appear…. I’ll let you ponder on that and join the dots, Chief.

    Toodle pip, lovely sunny afternoon in leafy rural Cheshire.

  59. Pat Blake
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode, independence is dead for a decade. Unionists need not fear any time soon. Even Alex Salmond thinks that SNP incompetence has hindered it for now. Alf thinks that the SNP are unionist plants. Kate Forbes turns out to not be the One. Where is the competent independence movement going to come from?

  60. sarah
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Pat Blake, there are plenty of competent people in the independence movement, just not in either parliament!

    Have you signed up to Liberation.scot and Salvo, to start with?

  61. Saffron Robe
    Ignored
    says:

    It is a typical SNP ploy to put the cart before the horse and make independence conditional. To create a condition – something unachievable, highly improbable or deliberately vague – which must be met prior to independence, in this instance a “vibrant economy”. However, not only do the SNP have practically no control over the economy, but the Union is designed to keep Scotland’s economy subject to England’s economy and, as such, only independence can ever bring about a “vibrant economy”. Just another example of the SNP continually kicking independence into the long grass and never-never land.

    In fact, we can demonstrate the fallacious thinking of the SNP logically:

    Their argument is as follows:

    If A (where A = the condition to be met), then X (where X = independence).

    However, we can see from the above that X is dependent on A, which is an inherent contradiction since X is defined as “independence”, that is, independent of any condition.

  62. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Pat Blake

    You ask a reasonable question in a reasonable manner and so I will respond in the same vein.

    You are right. Captain Caveman is right. You are both right. I can’t argue against the truth and expect to win that argument – no-one can.

    Independence might be held back for a decade because of the SNP, but I wouldn’t bet on it just yet.

    The SNP and the Scottish Greens are as deplorable as they are ineffectual and useless, or worse. I would posit that Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives, and the Scottish Lib Dems also fit those same labels.

    Alex Salmond is right when he says SNP incompetence has hindered the independence movement.

    Alf Baird, among others, is right when he describes the SNP as being a party whose leadership, at least, is filled with Unionists.

    And Kate Forbes is absolutely definitely not ‘the one’.

    You ask “where will the competent independence movement come from?”.

    I answer by saying it will come from the Scots and those supporting them who are the Independence movement. Where else?

    The problem for Scotland in her current state is that no Scot with any competence or intelligence or nous is allowed anywhere near the decision making bodies and institutions in Scotland. They have been blocked from having any influence whatsoever on the way Scotland, their own country, is run civically, economically, and in every other way.

    But the woeful incompetence of Scotland’s compromised government and public institutions is not the root of the problem. I would argue that the incompetence, corruption and mediocrity we see in Scotland’s elite and her governing ‘elected’ representatives isn’t the problem at all.

    The incompetence, an incompetence praised far beyond its worth by describing it as mediocre, of Scotland’s government is merely a symptom of a far greater problem facing Scotland and the Scots.

    I have been swayed by the logic and the supporting evidence underpinning Alf Baird’s assertion that Scotland is effectively, if not actually, a colony of England.

    Postcolonial theory describes exactly how the machinations of a coloniser operate on the colonised and we see it in action each and every day right here in Scotland.

    And once the premise that Scotland is a colony is accepted it’s clear to see that everything, and I mean everything, wrong with Scotland stems from that one truth.

  63. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Saffron Robe @9:19pm

    Exactly, Saffron Robe. The SNP’s independence ‘argument’ is a ruse. A catch-22. An Ouroboros forever consuming its own tail.

    There can be no conditions attached to a people’s liberation, their right to self-determination, or their right to defend the continuation of their culture and way of life.

    The argument for Scottish independence is Scottish independence; the liberation of the Scots as a people from their subjugation by another.

    Any argument against the liberation of a people can only be a lie promulgated by their oppressor and its colonised converts, and therefore will always and forever contain some erroneous premise – a fallacy.

    Find that fallacy, that false premise, in their argument, and you always will, and their argument will be proven fallacious; or put another way, false.

    I’m speaking of logical argument here not rhetorical, there’s a difference. Logic deals in absolutes, rhetoric in probabilities, or more often than not mere plausibility. That’s why politicians love rhetoric so much – it helps them sell their lies to the people.

  64. Saffron Robe
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode at 23:13

    Excellent comment, Northcode. Reason is our weapon!

  65. Pat Blake
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode 10 May, 2024 at 9:38 pm

    Thanks for the well considered reply. My problem with the way you view the colony issue and that power is swamped with unionists is that it has almost direct echoes to English blogs discussing why the UK Parliament and government is so useless and destructive of the UK. Just swap EU for Union and WEF members for Unionists.

    Instead I see politicians as people of a certain nature (people with style over ability) who when they get into power drop into well worn ruts. Ruts developed over centuries and maintained by people who also have a certain nature (civil servants, judges, administrators). We have rules, both written and unwritten. They don’t all come from inside the country, a fair number are global and others are as a result of trade and co-operation. Whilr our instinct is to say ‘break the rule’ that stops us doing what we want. But when a politician tries to do that they are swamped by all the other rules and reasons why that first rule can’t just simply be broken. They are surrounded by people whose job and inclination it is to keep the rules. Not because they’re WEF or Unionists but because they love rules. There are ways to legitimately break rules but they’re slow and boring. The quick way is a revolution but that has nasty consequences and you may end up in disaster. So a referendum is the halfway house. A controlled revolution and only legitimate if itself is bound by rules. Any country that radically changed its rules without due process would be viewed very poorly by its neighbours and business partners. They can’t necessarily stop a country doing what it wants but they can make life afterwards very difficult. Just as the UK needed to be viable after Brexit, Scotland needs to be so after independence. What Scotland wants to be after independence would be affected by how it gets independence.

    I suggest that the SNP’s desire to join the EU added a huge layer of caution in how they felt they had to proceed. The EU government is all about rules.

  66. Northcode
    Ignored
    says:

    Pat Blake

    You make some valid points concerning the natures of those who form the ranks of political classes around the world.

    However, your comparison between the Scots seeking liberation from an oppressor and faux union and England’s decision to quit the genuine European Union is, I’m afraid, a fallacy. The fallacy of False Equivalence to be exact.

    Apples cannot be made into oranges because they both share a few similar features.

    And although there may appear to be some similarities between Brexit and Scottish independence, they are not the same thing. Far from it.

    Brexit was the manifestation of a nation’s mistaken (England mainly) desire to regain its sovereignty.

    Mistaken because the sovereignty of England was never in question, otherwise the European Union would never have allowed England to leave – and probably wouldn’t have allowed a referendum on the matter either.

    I know it was a UK referendum, but the reality is that the will of the other nations of the UK was ignored in what is supposed to be a fair and equitable union – it isn’t ,as Brexit clearly showed.

    You say:

    “The quick way is a revolution but that has nasty consequences and you may end up in disaster. So a referendum is the halfway house. A controlled revolution and only legitimate if itself is bound by rules.”

    But whose rules? Those of the oppressor? Because if that’s the case a referendum, a referendum not even allowed by Scotland’s coloniser, will never deliver independence for the Scots – not ever.

    I intend no insult or wish to denigrate your views in any way, but it’s clear that you do not yet understand the true nature of Scotland’s predicament.

    You do not understand that colonised peoples cannot gain their liberty from oppression by following the rules of their colonisers.

    And you do not understand that the true relationship between the colonised and the coloniser is one of prisoner and jailer.

    I confess I didn’t understand myself until a short while ago. Scotland’s colonisation is not an easy reality to confront when we have been conditioned over generations to think of the UK as a fair union between equal partners.

    But therein lies the trick.

    However, having said all that, I feel that your comment reflects genuinely held views and I appreciate you taking the time to set them down.

  67. Pat Blake
    Ignored
    says:

    Northcode, Thank you, I genuinely wish Scotland well, in or out of the UK but I see the same problems.

    Every every union you join has rules. The EU has rules about a country joining and a country leaving. At the moment Scotland doesn’t qualify to join.

    Scotland has had one opportunity to leave the UK and it didn’t take it. Sure not every condition was favourable to make leaving easy but the same was true of the EU. What very few unions will do is let you opt in and opt out on a regular basis. It’s only reasonable that Scotland has to wait for another opportunity. A generation seems reasonable. So plan for the next one. Instead of muddying every election with independence, get a government that would make leaving a credible option. How impressive would Scotland be to be pulling ahead of the rest of the UK, despite being tied to the UK economy?

    Each EU member country has lost areas of sovereignty since they joined. It has long held plans to erode more sovereignty and eventually become one country. That means mixing tax and creating a single benefit system. The EU is very skilled at union. The EU the UK left was very different from the Common Market we joined. The EU is a legislation machine. Most changes are too small to object to or even seem better than what countries had before. Periodically it lurches forwards. Some countries vote on those changes but most don’t, their governments just accept them. The stragglers are bribed and then threatened if they don’t comply. Eventually the right party gets into power and the grip of the EU gets tighter.

    Countries are now balking, especially after the UK did not vanish in a puff of Brexit smoke. If leaving the UK is about swapping one empire for another, are you sure that the grass is greener over there? The further Brexit slides into the past, the less important it becomes to return to the EU. Yes it makes true freedom from both empires look possible but Brexit also serves as a template for what has to be done. My sceptical Scottish DNA would rather hear someone say ‘it’ll be tough and we need to do X, Y, Z’ than ‘trust me, it’ll be fine, don’t bother about the details’.

  68. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland has had one opportunity to leave the UK and it didn’t take it. Sure not every condition was favourable to make leaving easy but the same was true of the EU. What very few unions will do is let you opt in and opt out on a regular basis. It’s only reasonable that Scotland has to wait for another opportunity. A generation seems reasonable.

    #OnceInAGenerationKlaxon
    Material change in circumstance mandate with Scotland being taken out of the EU / Single Market against its will due to “Brexit”.

    How impressive would Scotland be to be pulling ahead of the rest of the UK, despite being tied to the UK economy?

    And just how is Scotland going to be able to pull ahead of the rest of the UK when all major powers reside under the control of London Rule, and our Scottish Parliament that controls the limited devolved powers has a voting system to create that “government” specifically designed to not give majority control to any one Party.

  69. Pat Blake
    Ignored
    says:

    Dan, for Scotland’s success it needs to be once in a generation. Who would do business with a country that changes its mind on major decisions regularly? Do you think that they EU would let you join? This idea that some of you have that you could grab back assets like gas or wind power without paying for them is similarly dangerous. Reliance that the World will forgive you swiping assets because you’re a poor down trodden colony won’t impress anyone. They’ll put their own interests over any amusement at Scotland leaving arrogant England. And as most people are now in agreement, an independence party isn’t going to provide a mandate for sudden departure any time soon, choosing a suitable future date makes sense.

    How could Scotland pull ahead? How does anyone or any company? With hard work and innovation. Having control of education could be an area of extreme improvement and money is not the key factor. Not frittering endless money on wokeness would free up tax money to spend encouraging business. Instead of free degrees for every subject, why not more support for STEM subjects? How much quality control on degrees is there? How about improving the tendering system for major projects? How do they go about employing the right people? Scotland falls down on exactly the same things the UK does but could do it better. Waiting until you are independent is leaving it too late.

    Those advocate just sending a ‘we’ve left’ note or claiming Scotland never joined are at the same time dreaming of a reasonable departure deal. Unlike the EU, there is no plan for how a break up would go. What if the UK just said ‘ok, you’re on your own’? Boom. No arm bands. No friendly division of assets or continuation of shared services until Scotland could arrange its own. Do you even know which systems rely on the rest of the UK?

  70. Dan
    Ignored
    says:

    …Dude calls for once in a generation vote on Scotland’s constitutional future for long term stability of business; But completely ignores that a couple of years after 2014 Indyref the EU “Brexit” vote drove a horse and cart through any stability businesses had.
    Even Kevin Hague of Endura bike clothing argued for a No vote in 2014 because it was imperative that his business had single market access.
    Scotland is a net exporter and England is a net importer so the two Kingdoms that make up the UK have conflicting requirements to support their respective business activities.
    There is a democratic mandate for the KoS to re-address the situation that unfolded due to the KoE voting to leave the EU.
    And just where did I say Scotland would want to join the EU now. The EU has morphed into a different animal from what it once was, plus Scots have no idea of what any potential EU deal might be if we were to rejoin the EU as a self-governing member State.
    So you are just making shit up to create more barriers. EEA or EFTA may be better options, but that decision would be for Scots to decide.

    I do agree with you to a small extent that there could be some improvements made within the devolved framework. Education is certainly one area that I feel needs a revue with way more focus on practical vocations and apprenticeships instead of academic woowoo university courses.
    Environmental issues could also be an area where significant improvements could be made if competent people were empowered to initiate more sensible initiatives.

    EG.
    Dodgy as fuck ASHP and solar PV installations on totally unsuitable properties need booted into touch.
    Relax archaic restrictive planning rules and regs so folk can at least install double glazing. They can’t currently do that in my village because it isn’t “in-keeping”, so how the fuck is whacking solar PV array on the roofs of listed building in conservation area “in-keeping”…

    Maybe address the pumping of untreated effluent into our rivers. It’s 11 weeks since I reported a village sewer pipe fault and reckon over £300k has been pissed away on a holding position that is as witnessed again this morning still on occasions allowing effluent to be pumped into the wrong watercourse.
    They haven’t even started the actual rectification work yet…
    300k could have put a new upgraded treatment system in place that could have properly treated the effluent the village produces before it is discharged into the river.

    But alas, Scotland doesn’t appear to have a Minister for the Environment. It isn’t clear if the NetZero Minister deals with environmental issues, and tbh anyone using the term NetZero is a fucking idiot and not to be taken seriously because they clearly don’t understand physics, chemistry, or biology.

    As per your last point on division of assets, that’s a two way street and would be sorted out through negotiations.
    Your asking if I even know what Scottish systems rely on rest of UK involvement is again just a one way view and I can throw it right back at you asking if you even know what English systems rely on rest of UK involvement? You may want to consider where the production and generation of a large amount of the UK energy requirements are sourced from.



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