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Kezia Dugdale Fact Check, Part 677

Posted on December 01, 2016 by

Here’s Kezia Dugdale at FMQs today.

Just for fun, let’s do the sums again, shall we?

As the FM pointed out, when Labour were last in power 85% of patients were treated within 18 weeks. The figures since the SNP took power are 96% within 12 weeks. But since Kezia Dugdale is apparently unable to calculate that that’s a very significant improvement, let’s concentrate on her arithmetically simpler claim that it would take her “centuries” to relate all of the other 4%’s unfortunate tales.

Now, it doesn’t actually take terribly long to say “Agnes needed a new hip, but had to wait 14 weeks for treatment rather than 12” – a few seconds tells the whole story, to all intents and purposes. But let’s imagine that Dugdale wanted to spend two minutes giving a bit of heartstring-tugging background on each case, which is still quite a long time to talk about one person’s hospital circumstances for.

There were 53,000 patients (out of a total of 1.32 million) who weren’t seen inside 12 weeks. Two minutes on each is 106,000 minutes, or 1,767 hours. If Dugdale spent just eight hours a day going through them one by one, that’d take 221 days (or 0.61 of a year), rather than “centuries”.

For it to stretch out to, say, three centuries, she’d have to present the details of each individual case to the Holyrood chamber for 16.4 hours.

To put that into some sort of perspective, it would mean that she’d have to drone on about poor Agnes’ wonky joints all the way through Batman v Superman: Dawn Of Justice and Captain America: Civil War and Doctor Strange and Deadpool and X-Men Apocalypse and Suicide Squad and Fantastic Beasts And Where To Find Them, and she’d still have to pad for another 15 minutes after that.

civilwar1

In fairness, with the exception of Deadpool, listening to The Saga Of Agnes’ Hip would be more fun than watching those movies. But it would only feel like centuries. And as we can see from the clip above, that’s something Kezia Dugdale can already achieve in under 40 seconds.

.

Some previous Kezia Dugdale Fact Checks: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]

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louis.b.argyll

It’s too much, I can’t listen to the wishy washy LPIS any more..and it’s not even panto season yet.

louis.b.argyll

Rev, how about a Kezdug advent calendar..
..a lie a day..keeps the nationalists at bay.

Richard McIntosh

Dearie dearie me!

Proud Cybernat

Oh Button it, Kez…

link to imgur.com

(Laughter’s the best medicine, allegedly)

louis.b.argyll

Remember this – Scots and Unionists alike…

The Labour Party in Scotland USED TO SEND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS / BILLIONS BACK TO WESTMINSTER – BECAUSE THEY COULDN’T FIND ANYTHING WORTHWHILE TO SPEND IT ON.

Do we want to return to a puppet government?

Proud Cybernat

Right Kez, starter for ten…

link to imgur.com

Dr Jim

It’s all the wee soul’s got, Aah
I see Alex Rowley’s a man on the edge now, a thing to behold
Did anyone notice the kind way in which the FM replied to Alex,her eyes were saying “C’mon Alex you know you want to”
He’s hovering!

Bob Mack

You have forgotten the common denominator for Kezia ramblings and calculations—–she’s an idiot.

dakk

Lying for a living.

Can you imagine what that would do to a body after a time ?

Another day in the life of a professional Yoon.

Scott

For everyone that Kez says there are many,many more who are seen within the time and I for one have been seen before the 12 weeks also I can phone the surgery in the morning get a phone call back from Doctor and if he thinks he should see me no problem.

A question for you all I noted today and other times that the Tank is not wearing her engagement ring as she was all over the press showing the ring at the time has there been a split.

Proud Cybernat

“I see Alex Rowley’s a man on the edge now, a thing to behold
Did anyone notice the kind way in which the FM replied to Alex,her eyes were saying “C’mon Alex you know you want to”
He’s hovering!”

Can you just imagine it, Jim? If Rowley stepped across the floor to the SNP then we would haveL

SNP = 64
Unionists + Greens = 64

Casting vote always goes to the party of government.

Go on Alex – you know it makes sense.

Doug Daniel

The only conclusion to be drawn from Kezia’s line of attack is that anything less than 100% is unacceptable – and that’s clearly a ridiculous proposition.

There will always be people who don’t get seen within the target waiting time. It’s unfortunate, but it’s just how it is.

The journeyman

To be fair I think she meant by bringing one case per week of FMQs.

Albert Herring

Kezia is absolutely correct!

If she brought up one single case at each and every FMQ’s, it would take her 1,432 years and 16 weeks.

Bob Mack

I should not be laughing about poor Agnes but I cannot help but look at the nodding Labour dogs behind Kezia all feigning concern for the poor soul. Jabba looks as if she is thinking of a gammon leg and whether poor Agnes is edible.

Meanwhile the rest of Labour would not look out of place on a car rear parcel shelf advertising Churchill insurance.

Maybe they will get up a collection between them to send poor Agnes to a private hospital to get her hip replaced but I doubt their concern about her goes that far. Same surgeons in any case

Auld Cynic

I was one of those who waited longer than 12 weeks, and yes, it was “wonky knees”. My operation was cancelled the evening before it was scheduled. The lady calling apologised and gave me a new appointment four days later. The operation went ahead as rescheduled. This made it 12 weeks and 2 days. Was I a dis-satisfied customer ? Not in the least. I’m prepared to bet a reasonable proportion of the 4% are like me.

Arbroath1320

WOW!

Alex Rowley is hovering on the edge … REALLY?

As others have said what a coup that would be if he crossed the floor to join the S.N.P. I don’t just mean a coup in the literal sense of a Labour M.S.P. crossing over to the S.N.P. but much more significantly the DEPUTY LEADER of Labour branch office stepping over.

How would wee Kez cope?

No doubt she’d roll up on the following Thursday to ask questions about kidnapping or some other obtuse topic. 😀

HandandShrimp

The SLab team abacus broken again?

They really need to get that thing looked at.

ronnie anderson

@ Bob Mack Jist you gonna no state the obvious some of us like ah conundrum , an yer dain us oot o funding selling carberandum stanes tae Blis members when they fund oot lol.

Artyhetty

‘Centuries’ eh. The unionists have attempted to keep Scotland in the 19/20th century. The SNP are trying to take us into the 21st century, against massive odds, ie tory and red tory policy, perpetuated by Dugdale’s party.

Where’s that £1.3 billion that Labour, when in power at Holyrood, saw fit to send back to their masters in england back in 2006/7? Nothing to spend it on they said, utter disgrace.

It will not take ‘centuries’ to repair the unionist damage with N.Sturgeon and her party in charge, but it will take some time.

What has Dugdale’s party ever really done for Scotland, not much in reality, and all they can muster is SNP bad, instead of shouting down th tories’ disgusting attacks on our poorest and most vulnerable. Nothing but contempt for Slab.

galamcennalath

85% of patients were treated within 18 weeks versus 96% within 12 weeks, seems like a massive improvement to me!

The only comparable figures for England I could find were …

“85.6 per cent of people with admitted pathways (adjusted) were treated within 18 weeks of referral in September 2015, compared to 88.3 per cent a year earlier. That was the last month for which this target was applied.

90.3 per cent of people with non-admitted pathways were treated or discharged within 18 weeks of referral in September 2016, compared to 93.7 per cent a year earlier.”

[ link to nhsconfed.org ]

… note the target is 18 weeks !

There’s always room for improvement, but thank Heavens we live in Scotland and have an SNP government.

Unionists, No voters, politicians like Kezia really need to reflect on this. Do they really want Scotland to be like England, or are we better in our own path?

ronnie anderson

@ Hand andShrimp Aye somebody needs tae keep they’re beady ein on that.

Ian Brotherhood

‘On yonder bench there sits a coup
He’s no there noo
He must’ve shiftit.’

Iona

Come on Stuart you are better than this. Point made in first paragraph, SNP figures are way better than Labour but tell that to someone waiting for an opp. It really does feel like centuries.

RichTea

Kezia Dugdale stars in “The Big Fact Hunt”.

[…] Wings Over Scotland Kezia Dugdale Fact Check, Part 677 Here’s Kezia Dugdale at FMQs today. Just for fun, let’s do the sums again, shall […]

Scot Finlayson

@Proud Cybernat

`SNP = 64
Unionists + Greens = 64

Casting vote always goes to the party of government`.

I think in the event of a tie, the Presiding Officer will have the casting vote.

velofello

Now that Kez has raised her concerns over the 53,000 persons waiting for treatment beyond the targeted waiting time, and having raised their plight I think she owes to all of them to study and collate each of the 53k circumstances. By her estimate she will never finish the task, centuries of work. That’s OK, better that than idle hands.

Proud Cybernat

“I think in the event of a tie, the Presiding Officer will have the casting vote.”

Which must be given to the government.

Adrian B

kezia admitting that for her running the Scottish Health service is beyond her ability….

Lenny Hartley

Louis.b.argyll re labour sending money back, I think its more deceitful than that, they would be in cahoots so that Brron could announce record spending for Scotland and get all the positive propaganda from their lackeys in the men and wee Jack would slip it back announced.

galamcennalath

Alex Rowley is hovering on the edge

I think he is unhappy with Labour Scottish Branch’s approach to the developing constitutional crisis which has been simmering away, but brought to a head with Brexit.

Rowley has stated he’s not a Unionist and would like a federal UK. He must realise that isn’t a viable position, soon the choice is very likely to be hard Brexit UK, or Indy.

While I don’t see him crossing the floor, I sense the first shoots of a pragmatic Labour grouping willing to accept that anything and everything has to be on the table.

The Tories are arch Yoons beyond redemption. I have always held out hope that some Lab and LibDems might be willing to put their constituents and Scotland before the Union. When any possible ‘middle ground’ has been laid waste and there are only two choices left, I hope some will do the decent thing. I would be a game changer.

Proud Cybernat

Hmm – perhaps not as simple as I thought, Scot:

“62. The convener has a personal vote as a committee member and also a casting vote in the event of a tie. It is entirely a matter for the discretion of the convener how to use the casting vote. There are no agreed conventions on this point. It is however recognised as good practice for a convener to explain the basis on which he or she was using the casting vote immediately before doing so.”

Now where did I read the casting vote was always given to the Government?

sassenach

Scott Finalayson:- “I think in the event of a tie, the Presiding Officer will have the casting vote.”

But I think convention dictates he must, in the event of a tied vote, vote with the Government.

manandboy

This is just a much rehearsed performance from a politician who behaves like a wee lassie in her early teens having a rant.
She does appear to be unhappy, as others have also hinted at, but if true, she is unable to rise above that to do her job in a professional manner. Except no one could ever describe Kez as a professional.

Murray McCallum

I can sense a Scottish Labour election pledge in the making:

“Scottish Labour pledge we will fund 1,000 NHS operating hours over and above the SNP pledge.”

Labour built the foundations (the internal market) of undermining the NHS. The branch office in Scotland seem hell-bent on continuing this destruction by chipping away at the current improved performance, despite UKGov cuts, in Scotland.

Proud Cybernat

“But I think convention dictates he must, in the event of a tied vote, vote with the Government.”

That was my understanding, Sassenach. But I found this:

“…the convention is that the speaker [Presiding Officer] casts the tie-breaking vote in favour of the status quo.” – Wiki

So, would the Presiding Officer then vote against any tied IndyRef#2 Bill as the status quo is the yoonyin?

Stoker

All together now….

Here we go Dippy dooooo, here we go Dippy dyeeeeeee.
Here we go Dippy dooooo, all Dippy can do is lie.

Who’s the bulldug sittin’ right ah-hint her?
The wan chewin’ a wasp?
(puts ma tongue very firmly in ma cheek 😉 )

louis.b.argyll

C’mon Scottish voters and members and leaders of Labour..

..after independence you’ll (likely) be in a permanent 3 way coalition, sometimes leading, sometimes propping up, but you’ll definitely have a presence in policy and politics.

Imagine the joy of completely removing Conservative influence on the public systems of this country.

C’MON..C’MON C’MON C’MON C’MON..
After thinking carefully of course.

Robert Peffers

@The journeyman says: 1 December, 2016 at 1:27 pm:

” … I think she meant by bringing one case per week of FMQs”.

Well! Journeyman, So you claim that you think you know what Kez meant to say. and that’s much more than Kez can say for Kez doesn’t know what she thinks she meant to say.

Sharny Dubs

Fundemundally….
Look out behind you!! no! no! not that side, the other side….
Panto season indeed

Macart

I suspect that Labour abacus has more beads than your average one and then they give it to a slightly numerate chimp to work out the weekly sound bite.

geeo

What the P.O. does is irrelevent to an indyref vote.

The Greens will vote WITH the SNP. Job done.

carjamtic

Is it a Secrect Santa thing ?

(The Gift that Keeps on Giving)

My John Lewis – Paul Hollywood Pie Funnel at £6….doesn’t seem as good now.

;-j

geeo

“Well! Journeyman, So you claim that you think you know what Kez meant to say. and that’s much more than Kez can say for Kez doesn’t know what she thinks she meant to say”.
…….
Actually, what kez meant to say was that she thinks what she meant to say was not to be confused with what others meant to say what she thought she meant to say….

Scot Finlayson

@Proud Cybernat

Indy2,the Greens would support the SNP,

SNP 63 Greens 6 = 69

yoons = 59.

Wullie

2006/7. £1.3 to £1.5 billion sent back to their buddies in London, I’m sure they found plenty to spent it on the engerland. Wonder how many of our elderly people in Scotland starved or died of the cold. Labour don’t give a damn for any one

Peter McCulloch

It’s wishful thinking to believe that Alex Rowley would leave Labour to join the SNP.

Proud Cybernat

“Indy2,the Greens would support the SNP”

Well, most probably. What I was looking at though was what it would need to get the IndyRef#2 Bill through Holyrood without the Greens support. They like to make great play and show of the fact that they are not the SNP’s glove puppets. Fair enough. I’d be likewise.

But what would they demand from the SNP Government in order for the SNP to obtain their support for IndyRef#2 bill? I just do not trust the Greens. Ever.

If it could be done without Green support, all the better as far as I am concerned. Maybe a by-election or two going the SNP’s way might be needed.

gus1940

On BBC Question time when there is an SNP representative on the panel and that person brings up the subject of Scottish Politics they are immediately slapped down by Dimblebum and told that it is a program on UK Politics.

This occurs even when the program is from Scotland.

Can the BBC therefore explain what the justification is for a Member Of The Scottish Parliament in the form of our beloved Ruthsfuhrer being on the panel for tonight’s program which I understand is from Wakefield which was in England the last time I looked.

I cannot recall any other occasion when a member of The Scottish Parliament appeared on the panel when the program was from England.

CameronB Brodie

What do you expect from a tool of colonial oppression?

Kezia Dugdale
Why do you continue to support ideology that denies my innate humanity? Not particularly progressive of you and actually conduct that is considered a crime by the civilised world.

Put the master’s tools down.

“The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

“The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

link to un.org

Robert Kerr

@gus1940

Bye-election soon near Wakefield?

Les Wilson

If Alex Rowley did turn I can hear the BBCs headlines.
” Evidence of mind control,Labour MSP in a trance state as he switches to the SNP”
” An unnamed expert says he is showing signs of mind control”

Labour party insists on an investigation,saying “There is no other reason for this to happen, we need an answer”

Kezie has not been seen since the announcement.

Proud Cybernat

Would love someone in the QT audience tonight to ask Rooth the Mooth:

“Why should I, as an English tax payer, subsidise you and all other Scots?”

Would love to see her squirm. And remember Rent-a-gob – try and not steal or break anything when you’re doon there slagging of your fellow Scots (as per).

Andy-B

Dugdale, and her floundering party,have no ideas of their own, and spend every waking minute deriding the SNP government, on behalf of their London masters – it’s a pathetic stance that is plain to see.

O/T this is doing the rounds.

link to indiegogo.com

Proud Cybernat

”An unnamed expert says he is showing signs of mind control”

Mind control, Les? You mean like this:

link to imgur.com

fletch49er

Just watch all MPs blindly lap up that piece of non fact big style. They’re just drones, banging their desks in that smug ‘1 nil’ manner, without ever having the intelligence the were born with to realise the Northern Branch Manager has just scored another own goal

Les Wilson

Proud Cybernat says:
Ha Ha, hope the BBC do not see it, otherwise….. expect it after every News.

call me dave

Rowley crossing the floor kinda thing… naw!

Not in his DNA from what I know and he’s Brownie’s pal too.

Anyhoo! I missed all the fun of FMQs but I caught the shortbread tv news while I was visiting someone. Nothing on FMQs just Hammond visiting the wasteland of the North.

Catch up on all the cringe later. SNHS waiting time again!

All I saw 2nd item in was the demise of the lollipop folk outside schools wie two lollipop woman on the same crossing and loads of traffic whizzing by.

Glimpsed a Ford anglia /popular van in an old film clip. Jeez!

Also Prince Harry celebrating Barbados’ independence from Great Britain. 🙂

PS:
David Davis says Britain could pay money to EU for single market access. Funny old Brexit init!

link to archive.is

iain

Re Jack Mc Connel and the 1.3billion stolen from the Scottish people. I was in the Victoria infirmary for several weeks, there were pidgeons in the corridors

orri

No doubt the Mooth is on QT to be congratulated about how well her party is doing in the polls. By a weird coincidence polling took place almost simultaneous with the whole palaver over Scotrail.

Conan the Librarian™

I genuinely think she’s a nice wee lassie who’s been put in an awful situation.

Hi Jeff, can I go now?

mogabee

Iona

As someone who waited longer than the 12 weeks for an op. date, it’s really not that bad being in a queue, especially having put off my op because I was a bit feart!

Nevertheless, waiting 12 weeks and 3 days was unbearable! Admittedly I’d had a phone call a few days prior to ask which hospital I wished to go to. Oh, the angst!

On the day I had my op. there were 55 operations carried out, efficiently with great staff.

Not bad for a “terrible” Scottish NHS. 🙂

yesindyref2

Rowley wouldn’t cross the floor, he’s Labour. The problem is that his party isn’t.

Jimbo

If anyone were to hear the Holyrood Unionist parties they’d think none of our public sector organisations in Scotland worked properly, when in fact they mostly outdo all the others in the UK.

However, every time they attack these organisations, they’re not just using it as a stick to beat the Scottish government with, they’re also attacking the competence and dedication of the people in our education, police, fire, health services etc. – Then they wonder why their parties are heading for extinction.

So every time you meet some-one employed in Scotland’s public sector, make sure to let them know that, even though we think they’re fantastic, under valued, dedicated people, Kezia/Ruth/Willie said they’re incompetents.

call me dave

Oh meant to mention Dr Tom on ‘Your Call’ shortbread radio on the lack of specialists and the waiting time for treatment above 12 weeks + more in certain cases, a woman was calling in before lunchtime. (I was in tuned in while in the car)

“We need to have more specialists” says the Doc

“That’ll be the SG Government” squeaks Kaye

“No the Health Boards” says the Doc… “more money yes”

“But Health is devolved” squeals Kaye

“Aye but it’s the total amount of money you need to take into account” says the Doc “and that’s down to Westminster”

“We’ll not go into that here” says Kaye…. 😛

But…but Kaye you started it.

Anyhoo! I marked the Doc up a notch.

ronnie anderson

@ Conan the Librarian Ah did’na ken they hud started underground Fracking in Whinchburgh I’d him the watter tested if ah wiz you . (smilies)

Glamaig

O/T
From the BBC

‘New powers over income tax were formally devolved to the Scottish Parliament on Wednesday, with Scottish ministers able to makes changes to rates and bands from April of next year.
And Mr Hammond said Scotland now had the “fiscal autonomy that it has long been asking for”, with the Scottish government able to raise more money if it wants to spend more.’

So control over income tax rates and bands is ‘fiscal autonomy’? Utter bullshit.

link to bbc.co.uk

Legerwood

The figures for the patients waiting longer than 12 weeks need to be put into context. The number of people attending for outpatient appointments has actually risen over the last few years. Therefore demand is up therefore not entirely unexpected if it appears that the numbers waiting longer than 12 weeks is rising.

O/T
Several posters have raised the issue if Labour’s £1.5 billion return to the Treasury. I believe it is the case that the ‘SNP during its first term in office managed to get it back or at least put into a separate ‘advising’ for future use in Scotland.

ronnie anderson

4.31 Hiz Hiz Hiz no Him bloody eyes no engaging wie the tap piece ,see ah dont blame ma misstooks oan predictive text.

ronnie anderson

On yonder roadway there sits a pothole
its filled in noo
its cawed ah puddle
Nth Lanarkshire Council makes ah muddle
fae the pothole
that became ah puddle.

Put your inflated costings to sort the roadway To Chief Executive Civic Centre Motherwell

CameronB Brodie

Kezia Dugdale
Re. the denial of inalienable human rights. Perhaps your not a fan of Hegel but how would you suggest we go about creating “systematic solutions” and what would be your “historical prognosis or prophecy” re. Scotland’s post-modern condition? The forces of rationality would suggest independence, no?

Certainly one of the most famous chapters of the Phenomenology of Spirit is the one on “lordship and bondage” or master and slave (“Knechtschaft” in German is not necessarily slavery, but Hegel’s bondsman has no rights and no contract with his master). Marxists (not Marx himself) understood the reversal of the master-slave relation as one of the central messages of the book. In contrast, recent Hegel-scholars have argued that the chapter is not about social practices or historical processes at all. Some claim that the social phenomena are only illustrations of the logical categories developing “behind the scene”. For others the relation between master and slave is meant to signify a relation within self-consciousness itself, namely between pure reason and the “inferior” faculties. Indeed, the young Hegel criticized Kant’s moral philosophy as demanding an internal servitude of the sensual and emotional faculties under the “tyranny” of pure practical reason….

The abolition of slavery is accomplished as a result of the progress of reason and the consciousness of freedom. Hegel does not understand relations between capital and labour as lordship and bondage. However, he realizes the emergence of class struggles within market societies. Although necessary for the execution of individual life plans, market economies are bound to run into crises which might dissolve the loyalty of the poor to state and law. Hegel’s Philosophy of Right discusses these possibilities but offers no systematic solutions and refrains from any particular historical prognosis or prophecy. This to some extent contrasts with his view that the rational institutions of the modern state are in principle irrevocable and that the rational tendencies of history will in the end prevail.

link to cambridgeblog.org

Bob Mack

Might interest you to know I have just read the Crown submission to the Supreme Court, and very interesting it is too.

To cut to the chase, the Attorney General states thar Constitutional consequences should be avoided by the Court, and they should base their judgement entirely on law.

However he also states that there is no basic difference between English Scottish and Irish law and backs this up with a case from the 1960’s, in which a judge ruled that English and Scottish Law and get this Burmese law were the same in basis.

That my friends is the get out. Unless the Lord Advocate insists that this is untrue then they may well win their case.

Effijy

Not only are the SNP government treating more people more
Quickly than the last Labour government but
That are doing it during a decade of Austerity
that Labour would not vote against.

I think also worth pointing out tha Labour NHS Wales has an even
Worse record than the Tories NHS England, who themselves
Are vastly inferior to NHS Scotland.

Proud Cybernat

“… in which a judge ruled that English and Scottish Law and get this Burmese law were the same in basis.”

Presumably an English judge?

Has any Scottish judge agreed?

Muscleguy

@Murray McCallum

Except it was Malcolm Chisholm as a Labour Health minister who scrapped the internal market here in Scotland.

I’m no longer a labour voter but the facts are sacred. It wasn’t the SNP who did that.

Clootie

…I have to admit that when Kezia reads out the details of a patient in that drone it does feel like centuries are passing.

Meg merrilees

O/T
Re QT tonight –

Will Ruth side with the leave UK side on Brexit questions and will Dumblebore point out that she defended Remain – ON TV and wanted us to stay in the single market??? Think I will be sick listening to the cringe!

Will she defend Scotland or stick the knife in? All bets are off. Presume she will toe the Westminster line and well and truly betray Scotland. True colours will show out from someone who wants to be the next First Minister!!!

Maybe there’s a Wakefield by-election coming up soon?

She’ll be playing to the English tory audience that’s for sure. Definitely a (‘tractor’).

Mind you Nicola well and truly embarrassed Ruth this lunchtime.

Robert Peffers

@call me dave says: 1 December, 2016 at 4:24 pm:

… “We need to have more specialists” says the Doc
“That’ll be the SG Government” squeaks Kaye
“No the Health Boards” says the Doc… “more money yes”
“But Health is devolved” squeals Kaye
“Aye but it’s the total amount of money you need to take into account” says the Doc “and that’s down to Westminster”
“We’ll not go into that here” says Kaye….
But…but Kaye you started it.”

That’ll be just one more BBC recording posted missing.

The BEEB has a very long history of embarrassing, (to the

BBC), recordings that cannot be found. (AWOL=Absent With Out Leave).

Dan Huil

@Bob Mack 5:33pm

Interesting. It does not bode well. But this is britnattery we are dealing with so we shouldn’t be surprised.

Hamish100

Davidson will undermine Scotland. That’s the Tories way. Tories /Labour are working to overthrow the Democratically elected government. Fluffy and co , private meetings organising to undermine helped by the BBC, telegraph Mail and co. Such a pot of shit in a nation.

ephemeraldeception

RE: Scotland now had the “fiscal autonomy that it has long been asking for”

Scot Gov should call their bluff, take his statement literally and act as if we now do have full fiscal autonomy.

The fallout would open the eyes of many.

manandboy

Question Time these days, is more often than not a carefully orchestrated presentation of propaganda.

The Producer of BBC’s Question Time has more than likely, chosen Ruth Davidson because she is on QT’s wanted Unionist list, but almost certainly, also for propaganda purposes, because, let’s face it, what knowledge or experience of Wakefield or England does Ms Davidson have, that is so valuable, that she travel to Wakefield, and back presumably, leaving the day job in Edinburgh, to impart to the good people of Wakefield and the viewers in the rest of England and Wales.

Whatever the reason, the answer(s) will be available on screen during QT. For myself, I’ll be paying close attention to Ruth ; where she is seated, centrally or peripherally ; how soon David Dimbleby engages her, and how often, and how often is she interrupted. Then there’s the type and nature of the questions themselves and how many are channelled first to Ms Davidson. The audience’s response to Ruthie may also be interesting, and more besides.
All for the purpose of seeing a little bit more of Westminster’s propaganda tactics against Scottish Independence and, incidentally, all on someone else’s telly.

Robert Peffers

@Legerwood says: 1 December, 2016 at 4:38 pm:

” … Several posters have raised the issue if Labour’s £1.5 billion return to the Treasury. I believe it is the case that the ‘SNP during its first term in office managed to get it back or at least put into a separate ‘advising’ for future use in Scotland.”

You raise a matter that hasn’t been aired for a long time, Legerwood and I, for one, have not considered it for a very long time.

If my memory serves me well it was indeed put into a special account for future Scottish uses but I seem to remember the SG did not get free access to the account.

If it was to be handled by Westminster it has probably been raided by this time to spend on telling us SNP BAAD.

Can anyone enlighten us all further?

Bob Mack

@Proud Cybernat,

That is the issue. The case was on behalf of Burma oil and was heard in Edinburgh.

Dan Huil

@ephemeraldeception 6:15pm

Exactly right. They should go further and act as if our independence was already regained.

Bob Mack

Although the Attorney General is arguing that the various devolved powers have basically the same laws this is entirely inaccurate in my view.
The case of the runaway slave Joseph Knight during the late 18th century proves the point. This emphasised the differences in law.

The get out of jail for the Lord Advocate is that the Act of Union is law and therefore open to debate about its purpose and usage. It may straddle the border between lawand Constitution but is relevant.

gerry parker

“Scotland now has the fiscal autonomy it’s been long asking for.

Aye, and Westminster is going to get the kick up the arse it’s been long asking for!

call me dave

News from darn Sarf! The Guardian.

Scotland will not get special Brexit concessions, says Philip Hammond

link to archive.is

Brexit: 1m EU citizens in Britain ‘could be at risk of deportation’

link to archive.is

North Chiel

With regards to tonight’s propaganda channel 1830 output, it must be
such a relief to our first minister that Glen Campbell has now taken over as ” Chief
Brexit negotiator ” on behalf of Scotland . He instantly professed his interpretation
of Hammond’s every word , mannerism ,body language and gestures as regards his attitude
to various aspects of possible Brexit solutions ( within the Scottish context of solving the Brexit conundrum).
“Take a break and have a kit Kat Glen”, you must be completely exhausted running after Hammond and his ” better together” cavalcade all day throughout ” Auld Reekie”.

Scotrock

Many Yoon newspapers have highlighted the 1% fall in independence. One I don’t really believe that and two did any of then report when we went above 45%?
Serious question

Legerwood

Robert Peffers @ 6.20

I found this article which includes a paragraph on the About surplus. The ‘SNP seems to have negotiated it’s return over a 4 year period. The article also gives a pretty good explanation of underspend and surpluses.
link to thecommongreen.wordpress.com

Also, please accept my apology for my reply to your post last night. I was in a foul mood and unfortunately your post Hove into view just at that time. Should not have replied to you in that way.

Robert Peffers

Far as I can see the Hammond claims of, “Scotland now had the “fiscal autonomy that it has long been asking for”. Is no more than the usual Westminster bombast and bloody minded arrogance.

The word, “bombast”, is an interesting term and it comes from the, (now obsolete), meaning, “cotton or other material used to stuff garments”, i.e. padding meant to falsely pad out the wearer’s real physique.

The bloody minded bit is that Westminster has given no autonomy whatsoever to the Scottish Government.

Here are some synonyms of the term. “Autonomy” :-

self-government, self-rule, home rule, self-determination, independence, sovereignty, freedom.

Nothing that Westminster has arrogantly handed down as, “Autonomy”, comes without conditions and restrictions. Like independence, you cannot have partial independence – you either are independent or you remain dependent.

Neither can you be partly autonomous – you either are or you are not autonomous.

Neither fits in with a United Kingdom of two equally sovereign partner kingdoms.

The obvious lie is that there are not two devolve kingdom’s parliaments and as there is no parliament of England the truth is that Westminster has assumed it is England’s parliament and will do exactly as it chooses and furthermore England will prevent Scotland from acting autonomously.

The SG now has the opportunity to take this arrogant Yoon Loon at his word and act autonomously.

Anything Westminster says in reply the SG tell Westminster that as the people of Scotland are legally sovereign they will tell the Westminster Parliament what the sovereign people have decided to do.

That Her Majesty Elizabeth Queen of Scots, under independent Scots Law, is The Protector of the Sovereign People’s sovereignty and, as Sovereign Monarch of England, has no legal right to force upon her Sovereign Scottish people the authority she legally delegate to her English Parliament. Her Majesty must make a choice and no one can make that choice for her.

Her Scottish job is to protect the Sovereign People of Scotland’s sovereignty but if she does not do her duty then she will cease to be our Queen of Scots and we can, under Scottish law, choose another able and willing to protect our sovereignty.

I nominate Nicola Sturgeon for the job – Have I a seconder?

She, Elizabeth II of England, now has a choice to make as the Scottish people have, (finally), made their position clear.

Dan Huil

@Scotrock 7:11pm

The polls haven’t been very accurate in the last few elections – national and international. They’re just trying to sap our enthusiasm for independence – ain’t working.

Lenny Hartley

Robert Peffers – Seconded

Flower of Scotland

O/t

Decided to watch “The Crown” on Netflix. It’s actually quite enjoyable. However for a series made in 2016, I wonder who advised them.

In the series, Queen Elizabeth is called Queen of England and Queen Elizabeth the 2nd.

We know that England thinks it’s the UK but now it says it is!

call me dave

@Robert Peffers

I’ll throw down a gauntlet too! 😛

Lenny Hartley

Bob Mac me thinks the learned gentleman was on the Claret if he thinks Scots and English law are basically the same, I remember from Skool being edimekated that Scots law is based on Roman law , found this via Google tonight.
link to thestudentlawyer.com

It’s clear from above that the law in England is different from Scots law. Get the popcorn out!!

Hamish100

If we have fiscal economy let’s drop vat from 20%

. What? We can’t!

That’s Westminster rule for you – autonomy – joke

CameronB Brodie

All non-Yoon No voters should be aware that British national ideology rejects Hegel, Heidegger and principles of individual liberty, in favour of utilitarian colonialism.

How very British.

Dr Jim

@Robert Peffers 7.19pm

Ooooh! I really like that (smirkily narrows eyes)

Put her Maj in the position af having to comment on the only thing she actually has a sovereign duty to have a say on, derelection of duty if she didn’t….Ooooh!

That would take the bend right out of Westminsters bananas

Stoker

WOS archive links for April 2012 now over on O/T.

call me dave

A guide to the Supreme Court justices

All 11 will sit in the Article 50 case.

They differ in in philosophy, temperament and in how they understand their role

link to archive.is

Robert Peffers

@Legerwood says: 1 December, 2016 at 7:13 pm:

“I found this article which includes a paragraph on the About surplus. The ‘SNP seems to have negotiated it’s return over a 4 year period. The article also gives a pretty good explanation of underspend and surpluses.
link to thecommongreen.wordpress.com

Thank you I’ll have to download and read that later. I have a mountain of paperwork to climb just now.

“Also, please accept my apology for my reply to your post last night. I was in a foul mood and unfortunately your post Hove into view just at that time. Should not have replied to you in that way”

No need for apology for I did take a swipe at you. I do not take offence when criticised and am a great believer in open and frank debate. If we cannot be open and frank with each other we cannot expect others to be open and frank with us.

What’s more no one is above criticism. We must accept it, correct ourselves if we are wrong, and move on. Things move far to fast to dwell upon our little differences when there are bigger things to consider.

I am late making reply as I have a really puzzling quirk affecting Wings. I sometimes find I cannot cut, paste or copy and then the machine reports that Wings is not responding and Windows will check it out and report, *if*, it finds a solution but it never does.

I ran System File Checker, (sfc), and it reported it had found corrupted system files and repaired the affected files. Then tonight the fault has returned. I’ll have to do the investigation again and this time take better note of which files are getting corrupted. None of the security checks is finding anything unusual, though.

I wonder if other wingers have suffered the same sort of thing? Could we be under attack?

CameronB Brodie

Kezia Dugdale
Given that Scotland’s position within the British state is that of a subordinate, dominated, other and that my innate humanity is denied by an unwritten constitution, I have to agree with Freud and conclude that “sometimes a cigars is only a cigar”. The British state, intended as a vehicle to advance the interests of Anglo ‘protestantism’, has made little progress since the days when England controlled the global slave trade.

The British state does not provide space for Scots to choose an authentic Scottish identity or express their innate Scottish humanity. Despite this, Scotland is forced to adopt an alien philosophy of social Darwinist austerity, by a distant, secretive, authoritarian, plutocratic regime without insight, empathy or sympathy towards Scotland.

This is a state of 21st century slavery!

Put the master’s tool down!

“The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

“The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

link to un.org

twathater

Robert Peffers,

Robert i also second your proposal, and further i have read all your posts and your (ahem descriptions for ahem dummies ) is very illuminating, i am no history buff but your description of the Treaty as an agreement between two equal sovereign nations makes sense, I also agree strongly with the assertion that the Westminster parliament (aka English parliament ) has deliberately, willfully and forcibly sought to eradicate any belief that Scotland and the Scots are a country and a nation, unfortunately fully supported by a lying cabal of tractors.

It’s my opinion that Scotland’s senior lawmakers and government, should be making clear that we are well aware of what has been going on and that we will no longer accept the status quo, we DEMAND that the treaty be adhered to fully, we ARE equals and failure to enact the treaty will result in the repeal of the treaty.

We are not children who require the permission of our overseers ( sorry abusers ) to govern or manage ourselves, how dare they have the audacity to imagine that they have the right to determine whether their permission is required to allow the Scots to decide their future.

I Robert Traquair as a sovereign Scotsman hereby give permission for Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP Scottish Government acting as agents on my behalf, to hold a referendum to determine Scotland’s future as an independent country

CameronB Brodie

twathater
Seconded, though no rush. Choosing the best field of battle is as important as choosing which battles to fight. 😉

CameronB Brodie

Kezia Dugdale
Your party projects a facade of ‘working-class’ Scottish authenticity, in order to maintain Scotland’s state of subjugation to English colonialism.

Put the master’s tools down.

Robert J. Sutherland

So Kez in effect admits in public that she’s grossly inefficient. Who knew? =grin=

Not that she’s in much danger of replacement because all the decaying dunces of BLiS are at least sufficiently aware to realise that none of them could do any better. They can spout the flim-flam but (just like their chums in the Ruth Davidson Party) they know very well that’s exactly what it is. But El Gordo’s representative on Earth, Alex “I’m no Unionist” Rowley, might just fancy his changes of leadership when the time seems right.

Rowley is still far too heavily committed to his master’s “Vow2” shyste of “federalism”, so little chance of him changing sides any time soon.

But given a gaggle of Labour soor-prune faces after next May’s local elections, who knows who might finally wake up to reality and…?

(…or not. They all seem to have a deeply-ingrained political death-wish.)

punklin

Louis.b argyll at 12 55 said “and it’s not even panto season yet ”

Oh yes it is!

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi Robert Peffers at 7.19pm.

You typed,
“Her Scottish job is to protect the Sovereign People of Scotland’s sovereignty but if she does not do her duty then she will cease to be our Queen of Scots and we can, under Scottish law, choose another able and willing to protect our sovereignty”

Has that got anything to do with the 1704 Act I referred to on 27th November? I addressed that comment to you but you never responded.

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Robert Louis

Oh my, the UK pretendy ‘supreme’ court is going to be fun, isn’t it. In essence, we have a situation where, no matter what Nicola/Scotland will effectively win. Has that witch theresa May realised it yet?

If the court accepts the petulant, and mildly childish outpourings from the English UK Government lawyers, then it is simply Westminster ignoring the DEMOCRATIC WISHES of Scots, and QED we would have an indy referendum, we will win. If the court disagrees with those lawyers, then the Scots parliament will vote to remain in the EU, and refuse to permit article 50 for Scotland, QED, effective independence, in all but name.

The fact is, the so-called ‘constitution’ which London likes to refer to is nothing but conventions and ‘norms’, yet now they are trying to argue that all conventions are equal, but some (Sewel) are less equal than others.

The most telling thing so far has been the rude nature of the UK Government submissions to the pretendy UK ‘supreme’ court. An odd approach to take,unless you don’t really have a convincing argument to make. Lallands Peat worrier has written about it, link below.

Just another point, I like Robert Peffers suggestion that the Scot Gov take Westminster at its word, and just start acting autonomously. The reality in all of this, is their is little London can do – unless it wants to start some kind of war (literally). I’ve often felt Holyrood should just take whatever measures they deem fit, whenever. Who are these unelected clowns in London to tell Scotland what to do?

See : link to lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.com

Robert J. Sutherland

me @ 21:09,

Oops! “chances”, not “changes”.

Robert Louis

Twathater at 842pm,

QUOTE “It’s my opinion that Scotland’s senior lawmakers and government, should be making clear that we are well aware of what has been going on and that we will no longer accept the status quo, we DEMAND that the treaty be adhered to fully, we ARE equals and failure to enact the treaty will result in the repeal of the treaty.

We are not children who require the permission of our overseers ( sorry abusers ) to govern or manage ourselves, how dare they have the audacity to imagine that they have the right to determine whether their permission is required to allow the Scots to decide their future.

Well said. Very, very well said. I too am tired of the kowtowing and subservience to these clown in Westminster. Scotland is and always has been an EQUAL sovereign partner in the bipartite union with England. This abuse of power by England has to stop.

CameronB Brodie

Re. federalism. The British Commonwealth of Nations came in to existence as a result of the Balfour Declaration, drafted by Viscount Milner (Fabian). It’s major proponent was Lionel Curtis, former member of Milner’s Kindergarten in South Africa. It was intended as a federalist means to enable Britain’s continued global relevance in the 20th century. Just saying.

Scotland is a colony that is blind to it’s own slavery, let’s be a nation again.

‘If Christ were to return to this world today’, the Oxford-based historian Lionel Curtis asked in 1910, ‘where would He find the principles of His teaching best followed?’ He unhesitatingly gave his own answer: in the British empire. Few even of his contemporaries shared the same degree of enthusiasm for empire. Emily Hobhouse, the exposer of Britain’s ‘methods of barbarism’ during the South African War, Agatha Harrison, the supporter and follower of Mahatma Gandhi, and Rita Hinden, secretary of the Fabian Colonial Bureau, certainly did not. Yet the fact that Curtis could pose such a question and give such an answer reminds us that, for part at least of its existence, many British people saw their empire not as something embarrassing, nor merely as the object of pride and loyalty, but as the outcome of an imperial mission, which in turn was a key element in contemporary constructions of British identity.

link to oxforddnb.com

twathater

Watched Scot politics yesterday with Brewer salivating on all the new tax raising powers the SG have just been AWARDED ( so good of the adults to give the wee pretendy parl anything )
my take and no doubt someone will correct me if i’m wrong

ALL taxes from Oil and Gas go to westmonster, we are given a percentage back

ALL taxes from rUK head office registered companies and their employees go to westmonster

ALL exported goods supplied by Scotland yet exported via rUK are credited to westmonster with duties payable to same

So essentially ALL positive tax raising benefits are payable to westmonster and the SG can collect the crumbs.

Yet we have our glorious unionist MSP’s exhorting how wonderful these super duper tax raising powers are, and if the SG want to defeat poverty all they have to do is raise the taxes of the people who are suffering. FFS i do not believe anyone could be so stupid

Let me be clear i do not and have never objected to paying my income tax or council tax, unlike the parasitical tax evading and avoiding business owners and non dom friends of government
I do have a massive objection to paying additional levels of tax different to the rest of the uk to stand still,whilst exporting our best tax revenues to westmonster to receive pocket money

galamcennalath

Philip Hammond and no special deals for Scotland.

These people do realise this is probably their last chance to save their Union?

If Scotland is forced out of the EEA there will be IndyRef2. By then it will be hard Brexit versus Indy and their chances of winning a NO next time are looking much slimmer.

Rock

Bob Mack,

“the Attorney General states thar Constitutional consequences should be avoided by the Court, and they should base their judgement entirely on law.

However he also states that there is no basic difference between English Scottish and Irish law and backs this up with a case from the 1960’s, in which a judge ruled that English and Scottish Law and get this Burmese law were the same in basis.”

The Scottish Legal system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

Glamaig

Another twist to the Article 50 farce – December might be an interesting month

link to bbc.co.uk

The Westminster system is crazy!

harry mcaye

O/T

link to labour25.com

I don’t quite know what to say about this. How widely known is this?

winifred mccartney

Can anyone explain to me why it is the BBC News today can report and film about a new teacher on an island in Scotland and yet failed to report on Nicola Sturgeon’s address to the Irish Senate. Are we still supposed to believe that the BBC is not biased – heaven help that they should show Scotlands FM in a favourable light – they obviously could not find anything bad to say about it so decided to say nothing.

dunx

@ Brian doonthetoon at 9.22pm

The act of security 1704 by the Scots parliament, was a response to the Act of Succession of the English parliament.
With Queen Anne about to shuffle off this mortal coil without leaving any heirs, this was a constitutional crisis . Since the Scots were not going to be bound by an act of the English parliament. If this were to happen that would have been the end of the dual/joint/shared monarchy.

The Scots parliament had also passed the Act Anent Peace and War 1703 ( in that Scotland would not be dragged into wars in Europe without that being decided by the Scots parliament and NOT by Royal prerogative!)

One of the first acts of the ‘new’/amalgamated parliament at Westminster (after the union!) was to repeal both of these acts.
Although technically the “amalgamated” parliament wasn’t bound by them. Nor would it have been bound by any acts of the previous English parliament.

However it saw fit to repeal both these acts and re-affirm or re-pass another “duplicate” Act of Succession (as per the previous English act.)

Breifly:
Act of Security

link to oxfordreference.com

Repeal:

link to british-history.ac.uk

Hope this helps.

KOF

@Robert Peffers 19:19

Sorry, no second from me on that proposal.

I would, however, whole heartedly support her for the position of Guardian of Scotland while a new monarch is found. A monarch who will actively stand up for Scotland and defend our sovereignty.

Tam Jardine

Doug Daniel 1:26 pm

“The only conclusion to be drawn from Kezia’s line of attack is that anything less than 100% is unacceptable – and that’s clearly a ridiculous proposition.”

I am not sure Kezia fully understands what a target is. It strikes me as being something to work towards and if 12 weeks for treatment is deemed as a reasonable target then 96% is very good.

Kezia can’t be arguing that 96% is unacceptable because it would be too small an improvement in numbers required to reach 100% (and after all we know all kinds of stuff happens that will lead to treatments being cancelled due to staff illness, equipment failure or whatnot which means 100% is unachievable).

So she must be arguing that the target of 12 weeks for treatment is not ambitious enough. Which leads us back to the previous slab target of 18 months which they could not meet.

I thought the FMQs today was hopeless- it reminds me of the worst of Westminster with partisan attack politics and zero actual meaningful discussion. There must be a better format than this tired sideshow.

Chic McGregor

Next up, Madame Dis Ecosse. on QT.

There is a reason her name does not start wit a T, not even a silent one.

Chic McGregor

Next up, Madame Dis Ecosse. on QT.

There is a reason her name does not start with
a T, not even a silent one.

CameronB Brodie

harry mcaye
That’s what the Firm calls “leverage”. 😉

Chic McGregor

Oops, sorry for near double post, must have inadvertently hit return during edit.

Brian Doonthetoon

Thanx dunx!

That puts that question to bed.

Socrates MacSporran

BBC National News earlier this week. Nicola Sturgeon becomes first foreign political leader to address the Irish Senate – not news, no mention.

Tonight. New teacher found for Isle of Muck in the Inner Hebrides. Film crew and reporter despatched, two minute segment on the National News. OK, it was in the “Dead Donkey” slot at the end of the news, but, still, it was shown across the UK.

Get to the back of the bus Scotland is clearly the BBc’s approach.

Col

Robert, if no one from the Scottish Government is prepared to call a spade a spade then how are the people supposed to know that the new powers amount to nothing and the whole thing has been just another huge con directed at the Scots from Westminster?

Connor Mcewen

Dead Parrot Dugdale in my eyes.
Completely oot the watter, cannae find yir article on those voters who wanted indy. but wanted out of EU and vice versa .
Something like 10% diff. but critical for Independence.
See there link to facebook.com

Big Jock

I know many Yes voters who voted for Brexit. I don’t know any of them who will vote no because the SNP want to stay in Europe.

They see Scottish independence as more important than their own political persuasion. So where are these independence supporters willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces?

Incidently a lot of the pro indi Scottish Brexit voters have very worrying similarities to some English leave voters. I am not comfortable with closed door nationalism. However it takes all sorts to make a nation or to reach a destination.

Chic McGregor

Ah! Ruth, the Red Line expert.

Hamish100

Question time

Full of right wing extremists or better known as white middle aged English people. Cmon England you can’t be all like that? Ruth Davidson – trying her weasly way of not saying anything to upset the audience. It’s Corbyn’s fault. She is a disgrace to Scotland

Tam Jardine

Ruth Davidson on QT:

“What we’re doing is making sure that we’ve got the negotiators in place, that we know exactly what it is that we’re asking for, we know what it is that we’re willing to give away, we know what the red lines are going to be so that we can get the best deal for all of these different sectors because people didn’t vote to make themselves intentionally poorer, they voted so that the UK Government would do what they said, get us out of the EU (now I didn’t want that but I’m a democratic and I respect it) we are leaving the EU but we want to do it with a good deal, not having France and Germany and Italy taking big chunks out of us when we leave.”

One part of that rambling monologue stood out: “we know what we are willing to give away”. What are the UK Government willing to give away on this? To get exactly what they are asking for?

It sounds very much like for every Nissan worker kept on or taken on (for example) some other guy is going to wind up on the scrapheap.

Audience ready to march on EU tonight. Not comfortable viewing.

ScottishPsyche

Where is pantomime Ruth tonight? Where is the grimace and rhetoric about the SNP?

She looks utterly terrified as she realises she represents the Tories who are not doing what the baying mob want in Wakefield.

Meg merrilees

Ruth is remarkably quiet tonight!

What a revolting audience. The south britons really do think they are the Superior race.
So glad that some brave people are prepared to voice the other side of the argument and full marks to Laurie Penny from the New Statesman . Heaven help the pupils of the primary school teacher at 23.20.
Going to give up on this- it’s too depressing.

Ruth an absolute coward!

HandandShrimp

Talking of checking facts I see that Jackson Curlew has shot himself in both feet over Humza’s use of trains.

What a silly billy as an ex chancellor would have once said.

Hamish100

Smiled, as Davidson tried to do the interviewers job of ” if I could bring this altogether.. ” so she can repeat what others say but plays the get out card of saying nothing! How Ruthie even school kids get taught such group tactics. The only difference is they do it better.
Davidson is out of her comfort zone with even more right brexits baying for blood.

Serves her right.

CameronB Brodie

“What we’re doing is making sure that we’ve got the negotiators in place, that we know exactly what it is that we’re asking for, we know what it is that we’re willing to give away, we know what the red lines are going to be so that we can get the best deal for all of these different sectors because people didn’t vote to make themselves intentionally poorer, they voted so that the UK Government would do what they said, get us out of the EU (now I didn’t want that but I’m a democratic and I respect it) we are leaving the EU but we want to do it with a good deal, not having France and Germany and Italy taking big chunks out of us when we leave.” – Ruth Davidson

Total incompetence completely lacking any rational plan?

@Ruth Davidson
That’s all very well but what about my human rights?

“The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

“The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

link to un.org

ian M

I am not in favour of another monarch.
Also if we need a chamber of sober 2nd thought it should be term limited

Chic McGregor

Well, I was wrong, virtually an entire programme on Brexit/Ukip/Immigration. Ruth was the token Jock, almost indistinguishable from the role Susan Calman normally fulfills. No Scottish topics at all, the nearest (approx 150 miles short) was HS2.

Pantomime season has started early. Oh yes it has.

NiallD

Well that was a fun QT. Good to see Ruth the Mooth offering a hand of friendship to the SNP to heal the divide.
Next week Nigel Farage and Louise Mensch will offer full devolution to Scotland.

Right matron I’m ready for my medication now!

Robert J. Sutherland

Chic McGregor:

Oh yes it has.

Oh no it’s not!

(I’ve been wanting to reply with that all evening long!)

More seriously, it’s actually high tragedy, except most people don’t realise it yet.

Dave McEwan Hill

Tonight’s QT reinforced my thought that they couldn’t afford to put Ruth on a Scottish QT anymore. She’s not up to it and has very limited political skills and a Scottish audience would destroy her. She is out of her depth now.Let’s hope she stays there but we’ve been getting a lot of Murdo who is even worse.

That poll today was great.
IT MEANS WE ARE WINNING. After two years (in which we have not campaigned for independence) during which the SNP,the Scottish Government,Nicola Sturgeon and the Independence theme have been attacked continuously in the most savage,unbalanced, dishonest political campaign I can ever remember by virtually all the printed media and our so called national broadcaster they can claim they may have dented independence support by about a half percent! They cannot beat us from here and they know it.

Look out for the next phase.
Anybody know where there is a Scottish Republican Army of nail bombers we can invent,Nigel?

The poll also suggests that only the over 65s are now opposed to independence

Dr Jim

Ruth Davidson bringing the Nation together to fight the real enemy, the people who will take great chunks out of us “The Germans”
Way to go Ruthie bring back good old English values
We won the war, Hooraaay!!

Loved the audience though, they hate the French they hate the Italians, the Germans, but they’re not stupid, they read stuff apparently even though they all speak different languages in the playgrounds of Wakefield

I wonder if half of those folk could actually spell disalu
dissaloosh disallushond,

Not happy about stuff

CameronB Brodie

Scotland is a colony who’s older generations are kept blind to Scotland’s slavery. Let’s be a nation shaped through liberty not subjugation. We can still be friends with England and share cultural, cross-boarder ties, we don’t have to give up Scotland’s free-will to achieve that. It’s how the rest of the world does things.

ScottishPsyche

Ruth Davidson just wanted to get through that without being lynched. She did not seem to speak for anyone except herself and she really got away with not having to defend the Tories record at all. Loved the idea that there would be harmony in Scotland if it weren’t for Indyref1!

Sometimes it seems that the Tories are happy creating Brexit turmoil as a smokescreen to get as many reprehensible domestic policies through as possible. They would be quite happy to leave government in 2020 without having done anything about Brexit.

Robert J. Sutherland

DMH @ 00:14:

…but we’ve been getting a lot of Murdo who is even worse.

Yes, but so woefully OTT that I’m wondering if he’s not actually counterproductive to the Unionist cause. After indyref1, people are a lot more clued-up about such huff-and-puff. (Not to mention his pandering to the Loyalist fringe.)

(It’s hard to believe this is the same person who once stood against Ruthie for leadership of the ScotCons on a platform of rebuilding them as a totally-new moderate centre-right autonomous Scottish party.)

The Robert Peffers theory of “giving the Unionists enough rope” is not in of itself enough, I believe, but it does have its merits!

call me dave

Ruthie flying by the seat of her UJ pants!

Here’s some local news. You must remember this.

Anyhoo! Seems there is no shame among some labour politicians.

link to archive.is

In other Herald news: SNP bad. Just a Hammond rehash!

Chancellor Philip Hammond dashes Nicola Sturgeon’s hope of Scottish Brexit deal

Capella

@ twathater 8.42 – great comment. I’d sign that pledge (with a small correction):

I ……… as a sovereign Scot, hereby give permission for Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP Scottish Government acting as agents on my behalf, to hold a referendum to determine Scotland’s future as an independent country.

CameronB Brodie

Re. Mungo Fraser. Sound, I could do with a new object of ‘interest’. 😉

@Murdo Fraser
Hey Mungo, better brush up on your principles of contemporary social science, lad.

Dr Jim

@Dave McEwan Hill

Yep Dave it’s still us oldies holding up proceedings (excepting us oldie wingers) this demographic will not move easily until they actually notice physically their pensions dwindling and costs going up

Telling them the triple lock pension is gone is a lie in their books until it happens, and they conveniently forget about all the free stuff because unfortunately they have convenient selective memories

Plus the other main and more important point, there are a hell of a lot of selfish gits out there who just don’t care enough to do anything about it, so what do they do, they wait and wait while they moan and then they make the decision to do nothing but moan again

But usually about the wrong government
What was I saying again? Oh aye fish’s got really dear hint it, it’s that Sturgeon Wummin,….. is she still in?

Jack Collatin

On UKIP overtaking Labour in England as the Workers’ Party, Ruth Davidson drew an analogy with Scotland Branch Office losing 40 of its 41 seats in Scotland at the UK GE, as an example of Labour flagging as a political entity.
She could of course have added that we only have one Blue Tory, one lying Yellow Tory, and a Red Morningside Tory, making up the Unionist pack up here.
To extend her argument therefore, the Tories, Labour, and Lib Dems are withered failing husks in Scotland.
She is also agin HS2, now standing at £63 billion, and not the absolutely final including contingencies figure of £47 billion that Danny Boy Alexander was spouting when he was a bought and paid for Tory collaborator.
She was clearly a makeweight because none of the London Tories could be arsed venturing into the darkest North of England.
Earlier, her alter ego Kezia Dugdale demonstrated yet again what a facile little tub thumper she is, while Baillie nodded obligingly in the background.
These two amply demonstrate the absolutely woeful calibre of Unionist politicians Up Here.
BTW, England is now a ‘foreign’ land, if this Yorkshire audience is anything to go by.
Their xenophobia and lemming like approach to leaving the EU,and the single market, and their denial that they will in effect be cut off socially, economically, and culturally from Europe is quite alarming.
The ‘they need us more than we need them’ remarks were alarming.
Davidson’s comments about the Germans and the French taking ‘chunks’ out of the UK were also telling.
We are well out of this Union.

bugsbunny

Richtea at 1.56pm yesterday.

The words you used to describe Kezia can be used to describe Ruth if you take the c from the third word and replace the h with it in the fourth word.

Smallaxe

bugsbunny:

I had to look all the way back,just to see what you meant.It was worth it!

🙂

Peace Always

geeo

Lib dems win Richmond Park by election…Zac Goldsmith…egg…face…hahaha

yesindyref2

@bob Mack
An interesting overview of the Supreme Court session how it goes, and about nobody wanting to involved the ECJ of the CJEU. It doesn’t touch differences between Scots Law et al, but the interesting thing is that first the UK Gov appeal submission gets heard, then the original claimants submission and the interventions.

Which is great as it seems to mean the whole of Wolffe’s submission will be read in to the UKSC – and hence answered possibly on a point by point basis, by the 11 Judges in their determination in January. But in any case, it does seem to get fully read in.

link to fullfact.org

@BDTT / @dunx
Thanks for that, very interesting.

yesindyref2

@cmd
Yes, the Herald’s playing a good game. I like it! I think.

What gets me is it’s still not all inevitable, I can’t wait. Same as everyone else, I’m starting to get as ratty as a mole with toads nipping away at its (b)adgers.

Macart

Mr Hammond is making this awfy easy and that’s before the Supreme Court submissions.

link to thenational.scot

In one breath ‘NO DEALS and stop clutching at straws’ and in another ‘I look forward to hearing the SGs proposals’.

Mibbies just me, but doesn’t the former negate the need for the latter? Sit down, shut up and eat your brexit cereal.

‘Course oor boy is overlooking a a salient point or two. Firstly that the brexit vote has occurred at all is in direct contravention of a core indyref assurance of better together and HMG. That being ‘only by voting NO could Scots guarantee continued membership of the EU’.

Secondly the Lord Advocate’s submission based on the Treaty and Articles of union, not to mention the Claim of Right itself may have a thing or two to add to the mere bagatelle of HMG fracturing their own indyref pledges to the Scottish electorate.

So here’s the thing. Folks could indeed sit down, shut up and eat their Brexit cereal. Yes, they could do that.

Or

They could remind Her Majesty’s Government of commitments they made to the Scottish electorate. They could remind them that consistently, pre and post 2007, they have voted for pro EU parties in Scotland. They could also remind Ms May and Mr Hammond that partnerships and agreements which have been wilfully welched on by one party can be dissolved by the other at their leisure.

Mind you, when it comes to welching on the agreements made between HMG and the Scottish electorate two years ago, Brexit is simply the straw that broke the political unions back.

And yes by the way, we really CAN do that too. Simply vote for it when asked a simple question. Personally after this arrogance and disdain shown the Scottish electorate this week, that question couldn’t come quick enough for me.

#welcherwatch

yesindyref2

Just read Keen’s reply to the Lord Advocate’s submission. Like wow. But careful does it, there’s “supercilious and ill-tempered” in there, but it hides what I think is desperation, and could be an attempt at misdirection to the tone of it, and on to Sewell, just Sewell. Could be wrong. Anyway, new LPW article on it:

link to lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk

This really could be the case of the millenium, 2 or 3 in fact! And all 11 judges so it’s as final as you can get – apart from the CJEU / ECJ. Now that would be a difficult political decision if the appeal was upheld, but Scots Law was ignored. Fortunately it would be Sturgeon’s to make, and she don’t do bluff.

Ken500

The worm has turned. Zac Goldsmith out, The tide is finally tuning. The ‘psycho bastards’ days are numbered, even in their heartlands. Watch a changing policies from the threatened ignorant incompetents at the prospect of their lying privileges being deceased. The reason why this whole mess was started. The lying,fraudsters, crook Unionists are in total disarray. The SNP can capitalise on it. The Tories could be on the run. Labour out of the game, especially in Scotland. No wonder a bunch of criminals. Most of them should be in jail.

The Labour Unionists did not just give back £1.3Billion, They lied cheated and wasted a £300Billion Oil fund. The McCrone Report. They started illlegal wars. Condoned banking fraud and tax evasion, They destroyed the world economy and created suffering and deprivation worldwide. To line their greedy pockets. Getting the UK into £Trillions of debt. Q

Hammond has just increased the debt and denied Scotland Democracy, They are despicable. They blame migration for their failures when they caused the migration in Europe. They take no responsibility for it, or their other crimes.

Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence. Make Scotland a fairer, equal happier country. Let go of the Westminster lying, deceitful. totally arrogant. Ignorant incompetents. .

Breeks

Hammond tells Nicola to stop clutching at straws???

What, as the UK tries to bung some money to the Germans to buy access to the free market? No special Brexit deal for Scotland, but a nod, wink, and a UK bung in a brown envelope is fine with the honourable gentleman.

Ken500

Hammond could be clutching at straws on his way out. Don’t forget to slam the door on the way

Hammond called the area around Faslane a wasteland. It would be if he got his way. He sneered and laughed at Scottish Independence and the idea of Scotland having it’s own Navy to patrol it’s shores. Another Tory liar spending £200Billion on Trident and leaving vulnerable people and pensioners to starve and due. Disgraceful. Nasty little person. Teresa May is the same. Two irreparable liars. The damage they are causing to the world economy.

Sinky

Someone should tell newspapers that it is not Sturgeon who has been slapped down by The Chancelllor but Scotland which despite being ostensible a partner in The Union has less clout than Nissan or City of London

Free Scotland

Bob Mack’s comment from 1:29 p.m. (yesterday) hits the nail on the head:

“I should not be laughing about poor Agnes but I cannot help but look at the nodding Labour dogs behind Kezia all feigning concern for the poor soul. Jabba looks as if she is thinking of a gammon leg and whether poor Agnes is edible.

Meanwhile the rest of Labour would not look out of place on a car rear parcel shelf advertising Churchill insurance.

Maybe they will get up a collection between them to send poor Agnes to a private hospital to get her hip replaced but I doubt their concern about her goes that far. Same surgeons in any case.”

Thanks, Bob. I’m still laughing.

yesindyref2

So a scenario, never mind all the others!

Scenario 1. UK Gov wins the UKSC appeal but the LCM is given statutory force (or the FM’s royal prerogative). Not great for other side presuming UK Gov wants to Brexit. So what do they do? Scotland gets IR2 in a hurry via S30, perhaps gives (LCM) consent or allows to be bypassed – or defers, considering appealing to the CJEU / ECJ, probably doesn’t lodge its papers as that freezes the UK Gov’s A50. Pity, because ECJ takes months and moths (that’s the paperwork). Meanwhile.

UK Gov prenegotiates with Scotland, the thing it didn’t want to do before, as it really really wants us bye-bye and anyway, it can be useful having us in the EU and it out. The EU is extra helpful as they want it all done and dusted: “Oh yes, common thingy area, nae bother”. IR2 autumn 2017, Brexit and Indy 31st March 2019.

We can but hope.

Marcia

The Tories nominal majority at Westminster now down to 10. The win by the LD in one the most affluent constituencies has that rare event a revolt by the well off. If I was to have a by-election on the topic of Heathrow I would not have it in Richmond Park who are mostly anti-Brexit and the main topic of the by-election would be Brexit and not Heathrow.

South West London seem to have a history of dumping MP’s who cause by-election and stand again for re-election. In 1982 the voters of Mitcham and Morden ousted the SDP defector from Labour Bruce Douglas-Mann who did the honourable thing and caused a by-election when he changed parties. They elected a Tory instead.

yesindyref2

Putting some details on that after the YES vote. rUK doesn’t want to hang around, Brexit is more important. What it does want is Continuing UK in a hurry.

Agreement in princple rUK v Scotland Feb 2018, PwC appointed jointly to audit accounts and calculate settlement. Meanwhile quick change to Scotland Act to give Scotland £10 billion borrowing power, to get started. ScotGov start borrowing as that starts our credit rating going (it might start next year anyway with the tax devolution). Meanwhile rUK / cUK takes charge of the debt.

PwC preliminary range of settlement e.g. debt range £40 billion to £200 billion. An agreed preliminary and totally nominal amount of £100 billion agreed so as to set the ball rolling on interest and repayments, but without prejudice as it were. Perhaps some asset split, and asset repurchase by the rUK, and a lower debt.

Scotland Independent.

PwC second of three reports, range now more restricted, and Scotland starts borrowing to actually repay the debt, as otherwise the cUK’s credit rating could be affected. We can perhaps by then actually borrow cheaper, if interest rates stay down.

Scotland thrives, and then in about 10 years time the full PwC is complete, cost £200 million split two ways, onwards and upwards, bestest of pals everafter.

I’ll have a Guinness.

galamcennalath

The scale of the LibDem win in Richmond Park is probably significant. If May was to try to reinforce her pro Brexit position by calling a general election, it might not turn out as she expected.

Firstly she might be out-Brexited by UKIP calling for a firm hard outcome.

Secondly any party willing to be anti Brexit would rally votes from those opposing it all together.

Although Leave won at the referendum vote, Remain voters might now be in the majority!

Proud Cybernat

@ yesindyRef2

I like your positive thinking.

More likely though is that WM, as usual, totally shafts Scotland in the courts, in Parliament and anywhere else it can shaft us. And Scotland ends up with precisely hee-haw.

Well, there’s always the crumbs from the WM table, isn’t there?

Ken500

Scotland raises £54Billion in taxes. That is what Scotland could spend, wisely without Westminster Unionist intervention. Westminster’s deficit on Scotland. Average spend – £30Billion basic, £16Billion pensions/welfare benefits, £3Billion Defence (No Trident) No £4Billion debt repayments on loans Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend. More raised in Oil & Gas sector with lower taxes when the price is low. £4Billion? Less imported untaxed, fracked US Gas or Norwegian Oil. £49Billion. With £9Billion to invest. Scotland needs control over spending.

Scotland would be in surplus as it always has been. Without the illegal, secret interference of Westminster Unionists, Scotland could invest and expand it’s economy, with low unemployment and excellent essential services, NHS/Education. No more illegal wars causing mass migration, banking fraud or tax evasion. Costing £Trillions.

call me dave

As they used to say in the comics…Coo!

First LibDem bye-election win for WM since 2006 in Dunfermline.

That’s Rennie’s record gone. 🙂

Too early to extrapolate which way the winds blowing yet as it was already a strong remain area but looks good.

Prof Curtis was a bit reflective not speculating just the facts!

Meanwhile in Scotland a new scare story for the listeners as radio,shroud waving, shortbread says Police Scotland bad… SG bad! :/

It’s just another day.

yesindyref2

@Proud Cybernat
I’m getting to the stage I think it needs both. Optimistic, perhaps wildly so at times, and pessimistic, perhaps berserkly at times. Expect either to happen or somewhere in-between, and plan for all of them!

@cmd
I still say cool because i think it’s kewl to do so. Humph.

What the LibDem thing does I think is blow the Tories chances of managing to do an early election to take advantage of their apparent big poll lead over Labour.

Slowly but surely the noose draws its plans on their necks. Oh dear. Never mind, there’s always HMS Thunder Cloud to the rescue.

Macart

@Yesindyref2

Ayup, the UK gov’s legal response is a bit on the ‘tetchy’ side. 🙂

I agree, that does in and of itself speak volumes. I suspect there are a few nervy wigs and a lot of nervy policy wonks wondering how this is going to play out and latterly be sold to the public at this point. 🙂

call me dave

Not cool… just coo! Lord Snooty and pals. 🙂

Anyhoo!

Sarah Smith of Auntie fame in Scotland to join James Cook in America to report the news where they are.
Shortbread web site says. Please take Glen with you Sarah.

Brian Powell

On Zac Goldsmith’s losing to the LibDems. The LibDems are similar to Tories, and they never had a Danny Alexander or Alistair Carmichael who turned completely against the country they were supposed to represent, sucking up to a Tory Government which was constantly rejected by Scotland.

Robert Peffers

@CameronB Brodie says: 2 December, 2016 at 12:24 am:

“Scotland is a colony who’s older generations are kept blind to Scotland’s slavery.”

Not true, CameronB. Most of those of the older generation that still vote NO are the actual hard core remnants, families and hingers oan, of the Unionist, Labour, Tory and LibDem parties that used to run Scotland and subject the rest of us to Westminster Establishment over lordship. Do you imagine they all vanished upon the SNP gaining support?

This is why, the closer we get to Scottish Independence, the more difficult it becomes to convert that hard core of oppressors.

You are talking as if this group of despicable people were just low intelligence, brain washed numpties. They are not for they are part of the Westminster Establishment and they do not identify themselves as Englanders but as, incongruously, , “British”, and thereby hangs the great challenge to the Scots and the People of Scotland, Scots born or not.

There is no way those who were the backbone of the Britnats all moved to other parts of Britain when they lost their grip on running Scotland. They are still here among us and if we do not recognise the fact that they are not just voting NO to independence simply because they belong to an older generation then we fail to realise they are largely part of the oppressors who have ruled Scotland from 1707 until today.

Yes there is still a group of those who are simply, (not to put too fine a point to it), thick as pig-shit, low intellect, brainwashed numpties. However, in the main they are the traditional actual oppressors.

Let me quote you an example. Yesterday I noted that some Wingers had the notion that the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party in Scotland, Alex Rowley, was swithering on crossing over to the SNP. Now I’ve known Alex family since before Alex was born. He went to school with my step-son.

The Rowley Family have been involved in local politics long before the SNP gained any recognition as a political force. Alex thus has spent his entire life steeped in the Unionist mind set of entitlement to rule over Scotland as stand-ins for the Westminster Establishment.

This is why Labour hate the SNP so strongly, these people feel that the SNP have usurped the Labour parties inalienable right to be the rightful rulers of the people os Scotland.

“British”, (sic), blood courses through Alex’s veins and in no way would I ever trust him, his family or his Hingers oan a single millimetre.

Neither would I waste a precious moment of my, rapidly running out, time attempting to convert the unconvertible to the cause.

Put it this way. If Alex Rowley ever crosses the chamber and joins the SNP then Alex will have done so in order for Alex Rowley to climb over the bodies of his erstwhile opponents in the Labour in Scotland hierarchy and not because he has, “Seen the light”.

” … Let’s be a nation shaped through liberty not subjugation. We can still be friends with England and share cultural, cross-boarder ties, we don’t have to give up Scotland’s free-will to achieve that. It’s how the rest of the world does things.”

Now that I can stand 100% behind but please recognise that the enemy is not composed of those who are just old and stupid because most of those older people are not Yoons just because they are older, and perhaps stupier, but because they are the same Yoons who once were the Westminster Establishment in Scotland.

Thereby hangs the most telling proof of that particular pudding. Have they not always fought hard among themselves as opposition Westminster parties? Yet they have always stood firmly shoulder to shoulder together to oppose Scottish independence for as long as I’ve lived, and actually been doing so before and since 1707.

Just as yesterday we saw them stand together opposing the SNP government at Holyrood. These people are the descendants of, “The Paircel o Rogues”, who not only sold out Scotland’s birth right to the Kingdom of England but who also enthusiastically helped to engineer that disgraceful action. Mainly, mind you, because of out and out sectarianism. The sectarianism so plainly recorded in the Treaty and acts of Union.

The Union was forged in order to make the English Protestant Monarchy forever the rulers of all the United Kingdom. It is being maintained for the very same motives today. There really is no place for religious sectarianism, (of either persuasion), in a modern, independent, Scotland.

Greannach

How did things get to this state for the Branch? It’s is barely credible that Kezia Dugdale could reach the dizzy heights of patrol leader in a scout troop let alone lead a once important political party.

yesindyref2

@Macart
It’s a strange one. But Keen is strongly anti-SNP, and his specialities were NOT constitutional matters, so who knows?

Not so long to wait now to find out 🙂

Capella

Willie Rennie was in Richmond fighting Scottish Democracy. A little off piste in Richmond perhaps, he thinks Nicola has “no leverage” over Westminster. Whereas the Liberals:

… can put pressure on [the UK Government] by threatening a Brexit deal referendum, with the large numbers we have in the House of Lords

He can also call on the support of “John Major, and I hate to say it, Tony Blair.”

According to Willie, nobody else is interested in Scotland in Europe apart from Nicola Sturgeon. Not the Scottish voters, not the Irish, not the Europeans. How she and her party get so many votes must be a mystery to Willie.

In yesterday’s Scotsman with the usual vials of poison in the comments section.
link to archive.is

Macca73

I’m not sure how much longer the labour party can put up with Dugdale, She’s a total liability for them now. I’m sure people watching even the small clips can’t believe what they are looking at when they see her on the news.

Her speeches are lame, her points are mute, her attitude is based on a total hatred of one party rather than trying to fix things and her policies are devoid of any thought!

In other words… please keep her in place and keep backing her .. we’ll be independent before you know it with buffoons like this trying to speak the case of the union!!!

Proud Cybernat

Just leaked from BBC Scotland…

link to imgur.com

Breeks

@Yesindyref2

I have misgivings about the Supreme Court Case because I very much doubt it’s going to address the constitutional issue of Scotland’s sovereignty first because it is beyond its jurisdiction, and secondly, that is not what it has been asked to do.

I do appreciate the Lord Advocates varied submissions in his arguments, but these are addressing matters which have limited bearing on the narrow parameters which the Supreme Court will use to contain its judgement. To illustrate what I mean, it’s like expecting the court in a murder trial to deliberate on the general ethics of murder as a crime, before it actually began the trial of the accused.

At best the Supreme Court is going to tie a flag onto issues of constitutional significance, but then sideline those issues as beyond its remit. It is only where these constitutional issues actively obstruct the Supreme Court coming to a decision which will see any deliberation or consequence.

Said it before, but there are no matters of constitutional principle at stake here beyond the precedents set in 2011 Axa case.

If Scotland wants the status of our sovereignty to be recognised in law, and further recognised by the international community, then the Court will have to asked to address that issue specifically. That’s a catch 22 however, because the Supreme Court has acknowledged itself inferior to Scottish sovereignty, so it is only Scotland’s Court of Session which can deliver a determination properly in law.

The UK Supreme Court has nothing to give us. It is inferior, and thus irrelevant, to Scotland’s efforts to reassert its own sovereignty. It has been asked, and indirectly asked, whether Scotland should be consulted about Brexit. The verdict local to this issue will either be it should or should not, and that is all.

If we want a test case to establish Scotland’s sovereignty, then we will have to bring one before Scotland’s Court of Session. It is the only way.

carjamtic

Greanach@ 10:47

Hubris is one word to describe the situation,it also applies to BBC Scotland,when one reaches the point where they believe the rules don’t apply to them,they are in the danger zone of hubris.

Similarly the Tories with Brexit and their snoopers charter,(politicians excempt of course),I look forward to the day when the voters in Scotland deliver them all,a political,broadcasting ASBO and good riddance to them.

They have had their ‘near misses’ it is now time for the walls to come crashing down and they cannot say they weren’t warned….Scotland deserves better.

Bob Mack

@Breeks,

I understand what you are saying, but there is a significant point to be made here.
The Attorney General is stating that there is effectively little difference between Scots Law and English law, and cites an example to prove that fact.

However the Treaty of Union itself acknowledges the difference and was thus designed to maintain that fact and status. How can the judges acknowledge the case of the Attorney General therefore which totally tries to dismiss Scots law as an irrelevance. They would be agreeing.

The bottom line is that many laws have been passed with the approval of a predominantly Unionist Parliament, but this does not change the intrinsic fact that Scots law is preserved in the Treaty for as long as the Union lasts.

How the judges get over that hurdle without making some decision on that fact I think is nigh impossible.

Dave McEwan Hill

Surely a very significant point on the by election result was Labour losing its deposit. Pointed out by somebody that they got less votes than they have party members in the constituency.
Corbyn is finished. Despite my personal respect for the man his backing away from his own positions to calm the parliamentary Labour Party means he is not leading. And he can’t lead this Labour Party which cannot win any UK election from a left of centre position.

yesindyref2

Found this very useful link on ONS which explains how the EU budget worked for the UK, coming up with a nett average annual contribution from the UK for 2010 – 2014 of £7.1 billion. Our straigh per capita share would be £600 million, but taken off that would be the Scottish CAP Uplift Convergence Carmichael kindly gave away to the four quarters of the UK. Which would make our nett contribution more like £300 million, or even less, quite possibly a lot less.

None of that takes into account the value of the single market to our economy and jobs.

yesindyref2

@Dave McEwan Hill
Not really, apparently they basically didn’t campaign to allow Zac Goldsmith to get back in. Ooops.

One_Scot

Just saw this tweet saying ‘Statoil starts drilling 5 wells in Mariner field east of Shetland, aimed at 2018 production start’

link to twitter.com

But I’m sure it will all have ran out in a few months when IndyRef2 is called.

Proud Cybernat

Ruth unmasked…

link to imgur.com

yesindyref2

@Dave
It’s kind of an honour system, since Goldsmith resigned on a point of principle the opposition don’t stand against him/her, or stand abck and do nothing. They do similar for the Speaker’s seat. Just the two main UK parties, other parties are under no such constraint, for instance the SNP happily campaigned against the speaker who ahd a Glasgow seat whoever and whenever that was, a few years back.

Clootie

The Labour MPs (Rad Torres) must be so proud they have managed to undermine their leader, the party principles and party electoral chances in their drive to prove their point (New Labour in all but name)

ronnie anderson

Breeks 11.19 am. One of the reasons I supported Indycamp as outlined at the start to have the College of Justices give a definitive answer to Scots Sovereignty & Scots Law being tested ,but for the interventions of Idiots we would have put that to the test .

WE would have to do that as a People, I cant see the SNP being supportive that would certainly put the cat amongst the pigeon’s .

Proud Cybernat

“The Attorney General is stating that there is effectively little difference between Scots Law and English law, and cites an example to prove that fact.”

Surely there is a total fudge going on here?

There may well be many laws in Scots law and English law that are the same or very similar. Indeed, they may even have the exact same law in the USA, Canada, Australia or anywhere else. But just because some laws may be the same in these countries does not mean that these countries laws have any jurisdiction here and vice-versa.

Scotland and England may have laws that are identical but they remain identical within two completely SEPARATE legal systems.

Surely?

Stoker

Theresa May banned from EU dinner?

There’ll be no After Eights for her then! Oh well, just think Theresa, there are thousands struggling to get dinner in because of multicoloured Tory policies. Maybe your EU friends will send you a doggy bag.

Macnakamura

GMS this morning focus on police Scotland.
Final question……. Why so reluctant to comply with FOI enquiry ?
This from the BBC !!!

call me dave

Guardian take on the bye-election.

Tory Brexit voters switched to us, say Lib Dems

link to archive.is

Electronics firm Semefab invests £1.25m in Fife site

Semefab – which earlier this year reported a return to profitability – exports 85 per cent of its devices to Europe, the US and the Far East.

link to archive.is

ronnie anderson

Ah wiz thinking aboot putting up ah Crowdfunder appeal to send Zak Goldsmith ah Scottish produce Food Parcel , or would it best be left until we see what his final salary amount is.

Im wary of Wingers wie Big Blowtorches.

Chic McGregor

Stoker
“Theresa May banned from EU dinner?”

She’ll just have to make do with her English Brexit then.

link to i51.photobucket.com

Balaaargh

What Mr Peffers said.

Alex Rowley is not only Labour, he is FIFE Labour. A more sleekit, perfidious bunch of two-faced bastards you will not find.

Alex Rowley was election agent for mucky Brown, the boy from the manse. Everything Alex Rowley says is for the benefit of Alex Rowley. He will play the home rule card to position himself as Dugdale’s replacement by “listening to the voices of traditional Labour voters” to be conveniently forgotten after an election.

ronnie anderson

Wee tip ( naw no fae blue peter cabinet )

Blue /White bin bags cut into 3″ strips & tie in ah bow & adorn ah Lamppost Saltire’s abound lol.

orri

The clever reference to sovereignty ignores the actual wording of the clause in the 1998 Act

link to legislation.gov.uk

28 Acts of the Scottish Parliament.

(1)Subject to section 29, the Parliament may make laws, to be known as Acts of the Scottish Parliament.

(2)Proposed Acts of the Scottish Parliament shall be known as Bills; and a Bill shall become an Act of the Scottish Parliament when it has been passed by the Parliament and has received Royal Assent.

(3)A Bill receives Royal Assent at the beginning of the day on which Letters Patent under the Scottish Seal signed with Her Majesty’s own hand signifying Her Assent are recorded in the Register of the Great Seal.

(4)The date of Royal Assent shall be written on the Act of the Scottish Parliament by the Clerk, and shall form part of the Act.

(5)The validity of an Act of the Scottish Parliament is not affected by any invalidity in the proceedings of the Parliament leading to its enactment.

(6)Every Act of the Scottish Parliament shall be judicially noticed.

(7)This section does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland.

[F1(8)But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.]

There’s no explicit mention that Westminster is Sovereign. The obvious point is that should Westminster actually legislate without consent then Holyrood will very swiftly reverse that legislation. It’s a game of legislative ping pong that the SNP will only be too happy to engage in. The Queen is getting on in years and forcing her to put on the big hat and scrawl her name is too much effort for May and her ilk to only have to do so again is only going to piss her of.

Also check out clause 5.

Bob Mack

@Ronnie Anderson,

Zac is the second wealthiest MP in the House of Commons £300 million net worth.
He should be sending food parcels

orri

Almost forgot, the irony is that the whole sodding case is about the Government getting around Parliamentary Sovereignty by assuming that the Queen will simply do as they ask.

galamcennalath

Re May being excluded from EU dinner.

Perhaps they didn’t like her wee end of dinner speech at the last one.

Or, perhaps she chews her food with her mouth open.

Proud Cybernat

“(3)A Bill receives Royal Assent at the beginning of the day on which Letters Patent under the Scottish Seal signed with Her Majesty’s own hand signifying Her Assent are recorded in the Register of the Great Seal.”

Surely the wrong appellation used here? Before James VI hot-footed it down to take the English crown, his appellation among Scots was “Your Grace”. The appellation “Your Majesty” was the somewhat more ostentatious term used for the English monarch.

So, “Her Grace, Queen Elizabeth of Scots”.

I can be as pedantic as the next.

sandycraig

Wullie Rennie says “John Major is a credible voice”.

No on Spitting Image he wisny.

Dr Jim

Around 9pm last night I nipped round to my local Morrisons (I know I know) for a bottle Barrs Ginger beer (love that stuff) and piled up on the fag counter were all the papers waiting to be sent back, the thing is there were absolutely heaps and I’ve never seen that many before, they took up more than half the counter and it’s a big counter

Now I live in Bishopbriggs, for those who don’t know that’s Johnny Nicolsons constituency and it’s a bit spam belty with lots of money (except me) and they are Express readers and Mail readers mostly (horrible intit) but those were the unsold publications that topped the heaps, and there were heaps

Maybe folk are turning off all newspapers now for fear of them all lying and in a way that can only be a good thing and the evil cybernat plan is working

The information’s out there you just have to let it in
but not from a newspaper
Because what’s the age group that reads newspapers? Buzzer sounds!!! The No Voter…..10 points Yaaay!

Liz g

Proud Cybernat @ 12.10
The law in areas like this are always a total fudge.
If it was at all clear there would be no need for judge’s.
What the attorney general is trying to argue… I think… is that we run the law on precedent.
The UK Court’s are allowed to draw that precedent from other closely aligned legal systems EG the US,and quote judgements in those Court’s to make their arguments.
But only to make their arguments.
It’s supposed to in theory help the Judge’s reach their decision.

I personally can’t see how that claim that the legal system is too similar will work here.
Other than inviting the Court to indirectly give the impression that it can see no difference between the the Soverenty of the two signatures of the Treaty.
Thus setting the precedent for any future case that directly asked for a judgement on a Soverenty question.

But having said that I also can’t see how and under what circumstances a Court could rule on Soverenty anyway.
Mainly because it would be a bit of a paradox to hold that Soverenty was subject to a Court ruling.
I would have said it should work the other way around
IE. Holyrood with the support of the Scottish MPs dose something “Sovereign” the people support it and the Court of Session rule it legal.
Job done… Westminster have no where to go ( other than the use of force ) Soverenty is established.

I am saying that because I see Soverenty as a Political decision first, not a legal one.
Much the same way as Westminster are trying to argue that the word… Normally..in the Scotland Act is not for the court’s to decide,but rather for the politicians.
Although I did notice that they haven’t said which politicians,cause the Holyrood one’s had to approve that act as well.
Once they have decided what it’s ment to mean,the Court’s will then apply it.
Hope I am making some sense here!!!

Robert Kerr

Annent the English/Scots law similarities it should be remembered that there is a 98.8% similarity between human and chimp DNA.

link to amnh.org.

The devil is always in the detail!

ronnie anderson

@ Bob Mack Ah canny see that happening any time soon hiz names Goldsmith an its no goldplated Goldsmith 24 carrot , he kin eat cake if he likes carrots . lol

The Man in the Jar

Seeing how its quite quiet here’s a wee OT to keep yourselves amused.

Some Icelandic cartoons 😀

link to 9gag.com

galamcennalath

O/T Good article ..

“People’s concerns over immigration are being fueled by a corrupt media and lazy politicians who cannot account for their own failings. It is easier to claim that there is too much demand than admit you failed to meet supply.”

link to evolvepolitics.com

DerekM

“The Attorney General is stating that there is effectively little difference between Scots Law and English law, and cites an example to prove that fact.”

You know he is kind of right about that in the same way that French or Irish law has effectively little difference to English or Scots law.

The law is the law after all,the problem arises when you get some eejit who think the laws of England are applicable in other countries the clue is in the name English law,and for the hard of thinking yoon that means the laws of the country England not the UK or Britain and definitely not Scotland.

Though they would just love to hold English law over us and do away with Scots law it is one of those things that has kept the Scottish free identity alive and in so doing is a threat to English domination over the countries of these islands and their insane quest to create a fictitious British “one” nation.

Sinky

UK government boasts that “The Vow” was a gigantic con-trick

Next week at the Supreme Court, Westminster is trying curb the powers of the Scottish Parliament and has submitted the following to the Appeal judges

“The legal irrelevance of the Sewel convention is expressly accepted”

“the convention does not purport to prescribe an absolute rule. Its content is only that “Westminster would not normally legislate” (emphasis added). Whether circumstances are ‘normal’ is a quintessential matter of political judgment for the Westminster Parliament and not the courts. There are no judicial standards by which to measure such a question…” More at:

link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk

So much for the strongest devolved parliament in the world as regularly quoted by Mundell and his side kick Ian Murray.

This is the sort of stuff that should be all over the print and broadcasting media but not in North Britain.

orri

The buffoon cites a case that took place prior to devolution when control of UK and Scots law was in the same hands.

call me dave

Lord Wallace: Holyrood may have Brexit legal role

Don’t get your hopes up. >:(

link to archive.is

Dan Huil

So Hammond says there will be no brexit deal for Scotland. So Scotland will have to obey Westminster. Aye right. Even britnats like Hammond know if Scotland is prevented from staying in the single market in particular and the EU in general Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish parliament [SNP and Greens] has every right to call IndyRef2. Indeed Holyrood should not bother with IndyRef2 and just have a straight vote on ending the union with England. Constitutional crisis? Too bloody true. The more constitutional crises the better. Time for Holyrood to get angry.

CameronB Brodie

The Scottish and English legal systems are tools of colonial oppression. Submission to their depiction of reality is to accept the bondage of medievalists. Step out of your slavery and in to the post-modern age, ffs Scotland.

The Acts of Union institutionalised Scotland’s slavery.

Put the master’s tools down!

“The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

“The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

link to un.org

mike d

I think the sg should call Westminsters bluff,spend their budget on things that matter,then when the money runs out blame Westminster for shortchanging Scotland.that will open some eyes. And when the lying yoons try to retort with fiscal incompetence. I don’t think many will be taken in with their lies.

gus1940

RE last night’s QT I thought that Mussolini was killed in 1945.

Brian Powell

call me dave

Ironic that lord Wallace belongs to a Party that has caved into Brexit now looking to the only Party that has stood steadily against the Tories and Brexit.

When Brexit happens to England and Wales I’m sure the LibDems will claim they have softened the Tory approach, just as they claimed when in coalition with them. However all they claimed to have modified was gone within 6 months of the 2010 GE.

Flower of Scotland

While it’s quiet on here…….

Went to see the superb film “A United Kingdom” Its about a black African King marrying a white girl and their subsequent fight with the British State to regain their Independence. It’s now called Botswana.

There was a row in front of me with about six 70-80 year old women. They clapped and cheered at the end.

The experience was very uplifting. Hopefully they were yessers!

Robert Peffers

@Capella says: 2 December, 2016 at 10:56 am:

“Willie Rennie was in Richmond fighting Scottish Democracy. A little off piste in Richmond perhaps, he thinks Nicola has “no leverage” over Westminster. Whereas the Liberals:

I was rushing to catch up as I’m having internet connection problems and I misread that post, Capella. I thought you had said, “Willie Rennie was in Richmond fighting Scottish Democracy. A little half-pissed – or was it you who made a typo?
;-))

manandboy

So Phillip Hammond comes, or is sent, to Scotland to tell Nicola to ‘stop clutching at straws’. The irony of course is that by saying this, Hammond is himself clutching at straws. His WISH and HOPE is that Nicola and the Yes movement give up and just accept Brexit á la May.
The reason is because the British Establishment branch of international neoliberalism has a plan. Same as the previous plan, but a few name changes. The 1% get the money, the tax paying masses get sfa.

Here in the UK, this means that the Conservative party plans to stay in power, and wealth, whatever comes, and if that means becoming an extreme right wing fascist party, deporting millions of EU citizens back to continental Europe, and, shafting the 17 million brexit voters, while intensifying austerity, then so be it. But here’s the key idea – they do not want any opposition, stiff or otherwise. And right now the plan is to destroy the confidence of the anticipated opposition – especially the SNP – by saying its hopeless, give up, it’s impossible, stop clutching at straws.

This tactic is as old as the hills, and it has worked a treat in England’s favour in the past. But that is in the past. The world is changing and no one has given the UK an opt-out clause.
Anger is fuelling a desire for change across so many countries as a result of austerity, industrial scale tax avoidance/evasion, and casino banking – with no one being held responsible and being sent to jail.
Brexit,Trump, Hollande, who’s next? The British Establishment?

Robert Peffers

@Macca73 says: 2 December, 2016 at 11:08 am@

… In other words… please keep her in place and keep backing her .. we’ll be independent before you know it with buffoons like this trying to speak the case of the union!!!

What case for the In Union would that be, Macca73?

I’ve been looking for such a case for nigh on 80 years and I haven’t heard, seen or read any viable case for the union in all those years. What is more I have been well aware for even longer than that of a very good case against the Union and the case keeps getting better as we speak.

Chic McGregor

When Tories say “We have to confront an ideology which thinks we should take money away from hard working people and give it to those who don’t.”

All they gotta do is look in the mirror.

starlaw

manandboy

Well said. I’m fed up listening to the BUM’s rattling on about the polls not moving. I don’t believe them or their polls this is propaganda full steam ahead from a panic struck Westminster. Before indi1 I posted about Westminsters secret department. The Ministry of Disinformation . This is now the busiest department in Westminster

Snode1965

Orri,
Great post regarding the 1998 Act.
For me the most significant part is no.5, every Act of the Scottish Parliament shall be judicially noticed, as the opposite opinion is the crux of the Westminster defence.

Dr Jim

The case for the Union

Basbados just celebrated it’s Independence from the Union and the Royal Family sent Prince Harry to mark the occasion
Over 60 other countries fought and died to get out of the United Kingdom of England and don’t want to come back

Case closed

galamcennalath

Anyone else feel uneasy that the Tories are making IndyRef2 more likely, but that doesn’t seem to worry them?

What makes them confident enough to carry on kicking Scotland and her government?

Do they thing they can stop Indy