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England’s prisoners

Posted on August 09, 2020 by

Labour sub-faction the Scottish Fabians this weekend published a call for “a new Act Of Union”, an idea that’s been kicking around in the party for some time since failed branch office manager Kezia Dugdale came up with it in 2016.

And at first it sounds almost intelligent and democratic, proposing a clearly defined path by which any of the four constituent nations of the UK could become independent.

But then you get to the small print.

The Scottish Parliament has 129 seats. Under the Fabian proposals, two successive Parliaments would need, in a proportional electoral system custom-built to prevent majorities, to secure at least 87 seats in favour of a referendum for it to happen.

Even in the crushing SNP landslide of 2011, where pro-independence parties got a bigger vote share (47.7%) than any UK governing party has done for more than half a century, they still only secured 71 seats. It would be all but mathematically impossible under the Holyrood system to get anywhere near 87 without “gaming the system” with new list parties – a concept Unionists are already bitterly whining about as “cheating”.

(No peacetime UK government in history, including coalitions, has ever met the 67% threshold being demanded here, by any measure. The nearest was the 2010 Tory-Lib Dem coalition, which could claim to represent 59% of the electorate – 36% Tories and 23% LDs. In terms of seats the closest was Labour’s 1997 landslide, which got 63% of seats but on just 43% of the vote, in itself highly undemocratic.)

Even if such a miracle were achieved, the referendum itself would also require a two-thirds majority. And while on the face of it a “supermajority” for such a dramatic change sounds a defensible position, the reality of it is this:

Even if independence won a second referendum by 66-34, a colossal margin of 32 points, Scotland would be held prisoner against its will by England, and would be forbidden from even asking the question again for at least another three decades even if public support reached 100%.

More concisely: 66% Yes, 34% No would be treated as a win for No.

It’s effectively an announcement that Labour would simply refuse to honour a clear democratic vote, and then outlaw democracy for 30 years. It’s on a par with current suggestions in some quarters that Donald Trump is contemplating cancelling the US Presidential election in November on the pretence of coronavirus because he thinks he’s going to lose – an idea which everyone is quite rightly reacting to with outrage.

Indeed, under this proposal, were the SNP to stand on a platform of an immediate unilateral declaration of independence, and get 100% of the vote – literally every single vote cast in the election, both constituency and list – this “new Act Of Union” would still forbid independence for a minimum of five years. (During which period Westminster could simply vote to abolish Holyrood to prevent it from being enacted.)

Such an intolerable situation would fly in the face of every democratic principle and international law. The “New Act Of Union” therefore actually seeks to enshrine in law the complete practical impossibility of Scotland asserting the right to self-determination guaranteed for all peoples in Chapter 1, Article 1 of the UN Charter.

(Something that’s already Labour’s position informally, also as pioneered by Dugdale.)

In writing it down, the Scottish Fabians have revealed how Scottish Labour really sees the Union – as an infinite jail sentence without hope of parole, a hostile takeover of Scotland enacted in 1707 to endure forever rather than a treaty between voluntary and equal partners which either of them is free to withdraw from.

None of which is exactly a shock, of course, but it’s good to see it finally laid out in the open in black and white. We wish Labour – a party currently sitting at around 15% (and falling) in opinion polls with around 40% of its own voters supporting independence – the very best of British luck in getting elected in Scotland on a platform of making Scots the slaves of England for all time.

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  1. 09 08 20 12:57

    England’s prisoners | speymouth

  2. 09 08 20 21:39

    England’s prisoners –

287 to “England’s prisoners”

  1. Muscleguy says:

    The spectre of 40% rises to haunt Scotland as a bigger, scarier spectre. But still a transparent one.

  2. Ruglonian says:

    We need to question the confidence of folk that feel the need to rig the game in their favour!

  3. Erubus says:

    Sounds a bit like the Catalonia situation, it is technically possible to have a legal seccesion in Catalonia or any other Spanish region but it requires such a hugely unattainable set of things to happen that it’s all but practically impossible.

  4. David Holden says:

    You should go on holiday more often as you are producing some good stuff at the moment.

  5. John Lowe says:

    If they want a New Act of Union they will need 51% of Scottish voters to vote for it. If not no New Act of Union. If they try to impose one without a Vote, Original is made Null & Void. Scotland is Independent again. Or we go to UN & EU and declare Independence

  6. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If they want a New Act of Union they will need 51% of Scottish voters to vote for it. If not no New Act of Union.”

    Careful what you wish for. That’s not an impossible barrier. They got 55% to basically vote for that in 2014. You’re opening the door to an Enabling Act there.

  7. stuart mctavish says:

    On bright side, in order to have a new act of union there must be a transition period where the old act is terminated and an independent Scotland is empowered to negotiate terms..

    Accordingly labour, in so far as it lets Fabians dictate policy and direction, must now be obliged to support indyref2 🙂

  8. Oneliner says:

    This is just the latest convolution from the SDPO (Scottish Democracy Prevention Office) of London Labour.

    The McCrone Report was suppressed by the Wilson Government of 1974.

    George ‘The Tinkerer’ Cunningham introduced a 40% rule for the Scottish Devolution Referendum of 1979.

    Despite their (nominal) opposition to the Tories, Independence for Scotland remains anathema to their kid-on social priorities.

  9. Big Jock says:

    Mogabi would have been proud!

  10. Giesabrek says:

    If they’re so confident that this proposal is democratic they should apply their own rules for enacting it. Put the proposal to the people in 2 referenda 4 years apart, with a two thirds majority required in both, all regions having a majority voting for it, and if it fails then they have to wait 30 years before proposing it again. Let’s see how long it takes to get passed then…

  11. Big Jock says:

    Stu- They don’t need an enabling act. Sturgeon will do it for them.

    BTW don’t worry she will be asking for another Indy ref in 2021.She has committed to it. She means it this time. Lol.

  12. Giesabrek says:

    What other country has had to jump through so many hoops to become independent throughpeaceful democratic means? In particular those seeking independence from the British Empire?

  13. jfngw says:

    @John Lowe

    Surely they would expect it to be a super majority, otherwise it just looks suspicious. Oh! it is suspicious, it’s basically what these London parties have been pushing for ages, the elimination of Scotland’s people sovereignty. But they are trying to get Scots to agree to removing it themselves by deception.

    Don”t think of it as a ‘New Act of Union’ but ‘Removal of Scotland’s Sovereignty’.

  14. Lorna Campbell says:

    What has not been said, Rev, and I’m not being a smart-alec here because everything else has been highlighted, is the fact that it is an ACT of Union, which brings it right into the domestic legal sphere and, therefore, its terms can be overturned in domestic law (domestic courts and Supreme Court) should that become necessary – unlikely, given the above terms, but Holyrood was never intended to elect a majority SNP government either, was it?

    The TREATY of Union must be adjudged and adjudicated upon in the international courts, not the domestic courts who follow to the letter English Constitutional Law and the sovereignty of parliament which trumps everything except outright illegality in English law (e.g. proroguing of parliament except in exceptional circumstances). We have effectively acquiesced in this moral and legal outrage.

    This new Act of Union is a trick of the lowest order because they understand full well the significance of having a new ACT of Union. The original ACTS (Scotland and England) translated the international Treaty into domestic legislation, but could not supersede the primary international legislation itself, the Treaty. The Acts were and remain secondary legislation. The parliamentarians of each country RATIFIED the ACTS, not the Treaty which is still extant, and which must be adjudicated in international law before we can negotiate with England/rUK on independence, and that would open us up to having precisely the same rights as England/rUK. Commissioners from each country, acting on behalf of Queen Anne, acting in her capacity of Head of State of each country separately, drew up and signed the Treaty.

    The Crawford and Boyle Report of 2013, never used in the 2014 campaign by the UKG or Better Together, was an attempt to show that Scotland had been subsumed, but, if that were to be challenged in international law, it would be shown quite clearly that England, and England-as-the-UK has been acting ultra vires since 1707, and that Scotland is entitled to all her assets and resources, not to mention reparations for the theft of her oil and gas, etc.

    Devolution itself would be shown to be illegal because an equal partner to a Treaty (and the Treaty terms, or Articles show this very clearly, too, to be Scotland’s position) cannot devolve itself as a whole. That would make a legal nonsense of the partnership. Nor can it be forced to devolve itself as regions of the whole, without its prior agreement, and, in that situation, both partners would require to devolve regions of themselves simultaneously and in precisely the same way. Has England?

    We need to get out of the Union post haste.

  15. Bugger le Panda says:

    Sleekit intellectual wing of London Labour.


  16. Rm says:

    Do what the Irish did, don’t bother turning up in england at westminster stay at Holyrood and declare independence, set up an independent Scottish Bank, start trading with Europe we have plenty ports, open Prestwick so we don’t have fly from london, tell all the country’s in the world Scotland’s open for business.

  17. Sue Varley says:

    I see they are not even proposing to offer a referendum on whether this new Act is acceptable to the people of the UK, let alone saying it will only be accepted with the agreement of a super majority of two thirds support, and a double majority of every internal region in the UK.

    They generously permit the “Nationalist parties” to oppose this, enabling a delay of the new Act. Why don’t they also state that any delay must be for at least thirty years?

    It might be acceptable under these terms

  18. iain mhor says:

    Hmmm yes and the intellectual giants who would proof read and sign off such a ‘New Act of Union’? They would have the mandate and power to do so, invested in them by 2 successive parliaments, supermajorities etc.? Somehow… no.

    They would also be the same calibre of geniuses who signed off the original Scotland Act (and others) I suppose – same old same old.

    Anyway it’s academic; because before you can have a new Act of Union, you have to have a Nation and Government to enter into an ‘Act’ or ‘Treaty with – currently England isn’t and hasn’t. At a push, if it is a Nation (unlike Scotland which was extinguished) it still neither Government, nor Parliament.

    Of course, if suddenly that was all to magically manifest for England; then Scotland, by all logical definitions, would simumtaneously become a Nation with an Independent Parliament in order to negotiate a Treaty and incorporate such an ‘Act’

    Unless of course, the whole idea of a ‘New Act of Union’, as posited by Labour, is just so much pish on top of a steaming pile of colonialist bullshit.

  19. They are still using every dirty trick to keep Scotland enslaved to England and as for list parties being cheating how come it’s been alright up till now when it worked for them??? Were they cheating ??? I am sorry to say you cannot use reasonable means to deal with,unreasonable people as I said before they are closing every democratic ways for us to gain our freedom in the end we will be forced to use undemocratic ways to gain it their fault not ours

  20. Josef Ó Luain says:

    Quintus, Fabius, Maximus, Verrucosus, as everyone on here knows, died in 203 BC.Fare-play to the father of gradualism, Fabius Cunctator (‘delayer’), but does his tactical strategy have any relevance to anyone or anything amidst the demanded immediacy of modern life? I guess, as some would have it, we’ll just have to “Wait and See”.

  21. Merkin Scot says:

    Fabians? New Statesman? Can’t be.
    The BBC told me they are left leaning. Shome mishtake shurely?

  22. Beaker says:

    @Bugger le Panda says:
    9 August, 2020 at 12:01 pm
    “…intellectual wing of London Labour.”

    Bit of an oxymoron there…

  23. katherine hamilton says:

    More student politics from Labour. This is infantile as a policy, lacking any rigour. Lots of wee angels dancing on pinheads. Let’s do something twice, then wait 30 years to do it again, if we want.
    Christ, in 30 years time from now, 2050, with climate change, aye right. There might be slightly more pressing concerns.

    Independence now.

  24. Confused says:

    the fabians have been gumming up the works in favour of the status quo since they were formed

    “scottish” / “fabians” ? I am sure there is a joke there somewhere, similar to voltaires crack about the holy roman empire

    stinks of english left, meddling

    10 print “the english left is not my ally”
    20 goto 10

  25. kapelmeister says:

    There’s always been a strong whiff of the cult about the Fabian Society. Their original logo depicted a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

  26. Morgatron says:

    Great article Stu, Scottish Branch of the Labour Party are not Scotlands friends.

  27. Ottomanboi says:

    In the old Soviet Union nations and territories had in principle a constitutional right to ‘secede’. In practice it was impossible without coming to serious and bloody blows with the centre. Is that where the ‘Scottish Fabians’ got the idea?
    Why do they not simply adopt the Spanish formula where secession is unconstitutional. More honest and you’d know what you were up against.
    Btw how many taxis would it take to transport those Fabes.

  28. jfngw says:

    Well if they believe this is an equitable system then they will have no problem using it to have the ‘New Act’ approved

    2/3rd majority in Holyrood for 2 parliaments
    2/3rd majority of Scottish voters
    majority in every Scottish region

    If they can obtain that level of support who are we to stand in their way.

  29. Andy Ellis says:

    British nationalists are pretty transparent: they’re not going to “give Scotland up” without a fight. They can’t try and impose “Dominion” status on us like they did with Ireland in the 1920’s. The “new Act of Union” gambit is, as others have observed, just another way of backing us into the same situation as the Catalans find themselves in Spain, i.e. exercising their right to self determination is rendered functionally impossible because they are required under the Spanish constitution to get the permission of the whole of Spain.

    Of course, if the Scots representatives in Westminster try and make themselves as disruptive as possible, the English might do our work for us and chuck us out. I’m beginning to think that’s the only way it’s going to happen. If gradualists have their way, most of us will be deid before the promised indyref2 actually comes!

  30. Kenny says:

    I thought it was very telling and offers an interesting insight into their level of “fifth-form politics” that there was no provision for England maybe wanting to secede.

    England does not have its own “parliament or assembly”. It has EVEL in Westminster, of course, but this is not the same (the equivalent would be SVSL using the MPs at WM rather than MSPs at Holyrood).

    Apologies to anyone in the fifth form (or, actually, anyone over the age of 10). I know that you are all more intelligent than the “Scottish Fabians”…

  31. Shug says:

    I this this is a great idea to build into a Scottish constitution as a requirement for any unionist trying to reinstate the union

    Thank you labour for a great idea

  32. Bob Mack says:

    Don’t worry everybody. The SNP are right on top of this.

    Aren’t you?. Aren’t you? Hello anybody there?

  33. Breeks says:

    Lorna Campbell says:
    9 August, 2020 at 11:54 am

    …..Devolution itself would be shown to be illegal because an equal partner to a Treaty (and the Treaty terms, or Articles show this very clearly, too, to be Scotland’s position) cannot devolve itself as a whole. That would make a legal nonsense of the partnership…

    Spot on Lorna.

    I will never understand why these Constitutional arguments feature nowhere throughout our attempts to secure Independence beyond the setting up of Holyrood and the Scotland Act.

    We act as if Devolution wasn’t securing a small degree of autonomy, but Itself, an act of voluntary subjugation where Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution was superseded by the colonial Scotland Act. That is NOT what the Scotland Act says. The Scotland Act is the small (c) constitution of a devolved assembly. It does NOT in any way compromise the Constitutional Sovereignty of the Scottish people.

    To my mind, these issues are factual absolutes which are not open to interpretation, and nor can they be set aside as ambiguous.

    It is my unfortunate opinion that the SNP and indeed the whole YES movement has approached Scottish Independence in a very amateurish way, and we have made life very difficult for ourselves when it simply wasn’t necessary.

    When we test the potency of Scots Law and Constitution through Courts, we win, we stand vindicated. So why on Earth we have allowed Scotland’s “Government” to be divorced from Scotland’s Constitution, and denied the most powerful weapon which Scotland has in it’s armoury, is a complete mystery to me.

  34. Neil Mackenzie says:

    The dictionary definition of secession requires there to be a new state and a continuing state but the UK would not continue beyond Scottish independence. The nature of the Union is integral. Without Scotland, the union would not continue. There would, instead, be two new states. One called Scotland and the other called The Kingdom of England. The Kingdom of England would naturally include Wales but not Northern Ireland. Wales didn’t form a union with England. It was conquered by England long before The Kingdom of Scotland formed a union with The Kingdom of England. Northern Ireland’s status a possessed UK province is another matter along with various other possessed UK ‘assets’ which The Kingdom of Scotland currently possesses in union with The Kingdom of England. This whole idea of secession doesn’t work for the UK. Secession is not what Scottish independence would be.

  35. jfngw says:

    @Bob Mack

    What has this to do with the SNP, it’s Labour’s Fibian society floating rainbows.

    It’s a bit like having a rebuttal service that responds to every piece of nonsense that emanates from the BritNats, when you respond you can start to give something credence.

  36. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It’s a bit like having a rebuttal service that responds to every piece of nonsense that emanates from the BritNats, when you respond you can start to give something credence.”

    Well, that’ll teach ME to write something having a go at the Unionists rather than the SNP for a change.

    FFS, can’t win. I’m so tired.

  37. Patricia Spencer says:

    Oh the old ‘Fabian’ tactics of misdirection, confusion and conflation. So Jim ‘fundalymundaly’ Murphy is still sniffing around and trying to interfere in Scottish civic life and democracy?

  38. Alan D says:

    Always amusing to read proposals which establish a threshold which the proposal itself likely could not pass. If Labour won the next GE on 35% of the vote(like they did in 2005), they could pass this straightaway.

    Without waiting for two consecutive parliaments where two-thirds of MPs maintain unwavering support. Without making sure a “double majority” of regions and “internal regions” support it. Specifically suggesting it doesn’t matter if devolved institutions refuse to formally ratify this abomination.

    And simply golden, a concession that the Good Friday Agreement supersedes this daft New Act of Union. NI would still be able to hold a “secession referendum” every seven years upon a simple majority.

    But the biggest laugh came at the promise to implement proportional representation in Westminster “as soon as possible.” That is from the party which promised to abolish the House of Lords and merely transformed it into a tool of bribery for incumbent Prime Ministers.

  39. jfngw says:

    @Rev Stu

    Oh! come on, I wasn’t referring to yourself, this article or any blogger but the SNP (or any party actually) rebutting made up stories. Once you start to deny things then you draw even more attention to it.

  40. Johnny says:

    Yes what they propose is to allow a tyranny of the minority, where 33%+1 (someone from the Fabians can explain to me how that’s fairer than 50%+1 making the decision, I presume?) can decide what the rest get.

    It’s interesting how these people can make up bull crap about the “tyranny of the majority” when the public won’t vote how they like but somehow think it’s ok for significantly less people to hold sway in other circumstances.

    Anyone would think they just tried to shape rules so they got their way all the time.

  41. dandydons1903 says:

    Need to watch these anglo fascist fabians and ilk like a hawk.

  42. Graham Ballantyne says:

    That isn’t a “new Act of Union” it should be called the new “Act to Stitch Up the Scotnats for All Time Basically”. Realistically we’d be locked into the Union forever with no democratic means of escape that anyone would recognise. Just another example of why Labour are a dying irrelevance in Scotland.

  43. Garrion says:

    One of the scales that fell from my eyes in the runup to 2014 was that the British “left” served the same masters with the same absolute commitment as the British right, they just did it while looking you in the eye and loudly denying they were doing so.

    Plus ca change, without cedilla because Windows.

  44. Davie Oga says:

    Mair pish from glazey eyed native sellouts
    to entrench and justify England’s possession of its last colonies.

  45. Bob Mack says:


    You better tell the SNP then. They formed a rebuttal service. Silly them.

  46. Liz g says:

    Lorna Campbell @ 11.54
    Exactly Lorna..
    Acts of the UK Parliament are no the issue here.
    IT’s *The 1707 TREATY of Union* that we work to end.

    This lot, the group in the Lord’s and our “wonderful” media never explore Treaty change as an offer for keeping a Union between our two countries going forward.
    Even in the same article in which they point out the new acts of Union wouldn’t impact or change the international treaty which is The Good Friday Agreement.

    They’re hoping that we won’t notice that their “new act of Union wouldn’t impact or change our 1707 Treaty either.
    Or we haven’t worked out
    That Westminster can still make or unmake any law even if they passed their “new act”.
    That Westminster can still legislate for Scotland without Scottish representation of any weight in the Westminster chamber is all still implicit in this “new” act.
    And that we don’t see it obvious that
    In reality it’s ” New Act same as the Old Act ” in every way that matters!

    The only exception being making sure with legislation that Scotland and Wales don’t have the numbers to ever trigger demonstrating that they want to end the arrangements.
    England has the numbers if they want out and N.Ireland the right every 7 year’s .
    This proposal only really attempts to bind Scotland and Wales….
    They probably think we’re too stupid to work out the new act,the old act and any other act of the Westminster Parliament doesn’t mean a thing with out the old Treaty in place.

    I think most of us are well beyond “New Union” arrangements and all the pits and traps within them….
    We want the Treaty gone/dissolved/struck down, and any agreements after that can be negotiated, and it would be mair in their line if they gave some thought to what they can put on the table when, that, time comes.
    Because the end of that bloody Treaty is coming,over half of Scotland and rising do not want it any more !

  47. Stuart MacKay says:

    From wikipedia:

    The Fabian Society was named—at the suggestion of Frank Podmore—in honour of the Roman general Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus (nicknamed Cunctator, meaning the “Delayer”).] His Fabian strategy sought gradual victory against the superior Carthaginian army under the renowned general Hannibal through persistence, harassment, and wearing the enemy down by attrition rather than pitched, climactic battles.

    Says it all really.

  48. Stuart MacKay says:

    Josef Ó Luain beat me to it – bah!

  49. A Person says:

    I swear to God Labour’s attitude to Scotland is usually worse than the Toties’. Oh, they “care” about “working-class communities” as long as they stfu, know their place and keep voting for them.

  50. Polly says:

    @ jfngw

    ‘Once you start to deny things then you draw even more attention to it.’

    Yes and surely that’s precisely the point. Wings drew attention to the lies in newspapers and from Labour prior to indyref and from all I’ve read here lots of folk needed it and saw it as revelatory. The wee blue book worked for folk by drawing attention to and rebutting misleading claims. It and the blog drew attention to what was being said and written and debunked it. I didn’t read wings then or need it to make me suspicious of what was being said but many people did and still do. Many folk have written here, even from the time I started reading, that wbb opened their eyes. How can you now try to say don’t draw attention to a bad proposal which could hamper our cause? I don’t mean to be insulting but your position as stated sounds idiotic.

    ‘I’m so tired.’ I’m sure we all sympathise and understand. You’ve been in at the tough end for so long and get it from everyone. But we all need your input to continue. When my faith in the forward movement of independence failed it was here I gravitated rather then some other places since, though I read widely, here seems the real heart of the fight for and belief in independence that hasn’t changed and is completely brutally honest in doing so. Your voice is important in more ways than you realise.

  51. BuggerlePanda says:

    Exactly the point I was trying to make.



  52. A Person says:

    -Stuart Mackay-

    Lots of good politicians have been Fabians but in many ways they’re a pretty sinister group.

    The Fabians have a centralisation, top-down fetish, with “intellectuals” at the top. Fabians were instrumental in creating the welfare state in the 1940s, which is why it was so centralised, unlike in European countries where public services are provided at a local level. Indeed, when the welfare state was being set up in the 40s, Churchill (not someone I’m a fan of) said that the Labour government’s creation of nationalised, centralised organisations was destroying local distinctions and was “nationalising Scotland”. This might explain why the Tories did well in Scotland in the 50s.

    In modern times, warmongers like Blair and David Milliband have been Fabians.

  53. Andy Ellis says:

    @Polly & @jfngw

    Polly is of course correct. The argument (generally from unreasoning gradualists too…funny that, eh?) that we daren’t rebut things in case it gives them the oxygen of publicity is puerile in our situation: faced with an overwhelmingly hostile MSM and ingrained establishment, it’s hardly as tho’ we have the luxury of worrying about the Streisand effect! Good grief!

    No wonder Stu is tired of it. It’s not as if the SNP or others in the Yes movement have any noticeable rebuttal capacity. The laughably inadequate SNP operation is lucky if it can stir itself to issue a few tweets a months, altho’ Lord knows if it did it’d probably focus on telling us there is no debate about trans women being women or fluffing Daddy Allyn’s latest pearls of wisdom, or calling Joanna Cherry a terf.

  54. Republicofscotland says:

    New Act Subduing more like, where England call the shots on everything forever.

  55. Papko says:

    Josef Ó Luain says:
    9 August, 2020 at 12:12 pm
    Quintus, Fabius, Maximus, Verrucosus, as everyone on here knows, died in 203 BC.Fare-play to the father of gradualism, Fabius Cunctator (‘delayer’), but does his tactical strategy have any relevance to anyone or anything amidst the demanded immediacy of modern life? I guess, as some would have it, we’ll just have to “Wait and See”.

    Perhaps conversely I always think of the Yoon strategy as being a “Fabian” one; as it was originally intended, Hannibal defeated three Roman Armies in “square goes” yet Rome did not succumb nor could they beat him, what they did was keep an army in the field for 15 years to ever shadow him, but never give battle, as Hannibal marched up and down Italy he could never rest his troops nor could he smite the Romans who would never stand and his face him.
    And we all know what happened; reinforcements sent from Carthage were annihilated by the Romans and Hannibal distracted and hindered from helping them, knowing that his armies strength was sapping after all these years he set sail for Africa.
    Liken that to the Yoon parties who barely oppose the SNP with lackluster polices and a dearth of talent the Yoons sit on the opposition benches waiting.
    After Holyrood 2021 it will be nigh on 18 years of SNP Govt by 2025, the party of reform and “better country” will have become the party of the normal and the vested interest.
    And the Fabian strategy will have won again.

  56. Robert Graham says:

    Anyone still under the illusion that the Labour government fronted in Scotland by Dewar actively pushed the Devolution settlement to meet the demands from the electorate for more autonomy in Scottish affairs , sadly none of this is true, just like this latest slight of hand small print trap .

    The Council of Europe forced the then Labour government to devolve administrative powers to Scotland by means of The Scottish Executive currently called the Scottish Parliament

    The Labour Government having been forced kicking and screaming to abide by this ruling then set about making the ruling whilst outwardly complying with it ,in practice just as in the setup of the voting system made it almost impossible for the spirit of the ruling to be observed.

    Nice try Kezia but as you and your party have previous in lying and duplicity and attempt to be the acceptable face of the Tory party by duping a mostly political illiterate voting public, I think most of us will give your horse shit a miss ,

    A plea to contributors on here, forget the personal attacks on Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP making her weaker doesn’t help the move towards achieving independence , so please for the time being give it a rest, Unionists are the target not her ,and not the SNP ,by all means criticise and moan but the really personal stuff it’s embarrassing and not helpful, Thanks in advance.

  57. Lothianlad says:

    Well done stu! Keep exposing the lies and deceit of liebour!

    Pity we have a FM more concerned with nature denying tha independence.

    The quickest way to independence is removing sturgeon.

  58. kapelmeister says:

    And just how exactly would this ‘new act of union’ be brought about? By a majority of Scottish MPs being out voted and ignored during the legislative process? In which case the term ‘new act of union’ would be a misnomer. Domination would be the accurate description.

  59. defo says:

    “In modern times, warmongers like Blair and David Milliband have been Fabians”
    That’s not fair A P
    They’re war criminals.

  60. Orri says:

    So how do they propose that they adopt this? Without repudiating the Good Friday Agreement for instance. Or gaining over 50% in Scotland at the moment.

    The 30 years limit is a prohibition that is against the fundamental principles of UK politics as it prevents a future government from doing something. The GFA limits the government’s ability to delay going to the public but so does the 5 year limit on Westminster terms.

  61. Famous15 says:

    Johnny @1.49pm says it perfectly.

    Anything other than 50% +1 is a dictatorship of the minority.

  62. Beaker says:

    @Bob Mack says:
    9 August, 2020 at 12:59 pm
    Don’t worry everybody. The SNP are right on top of this.

    “Aren’t you?. Aren’t you? Hello anybody there?”

    They are too busy firefighting at the moment. That’s what happens when you play with matches then ask the arsonists in the party to put out the flames with petrol…

  63. HandandShrimp says:

    Pretty blatant gerrymandering there from Labour. We clearly need to get out before the door shuts. Of course there is no imminent sign of Labour returning to power but nonetheless it is bound to happen some day. Let’s not wait to see If they try to pull such a cunning stunt.

  64. jfngw says:


    There is a difference between us challenging facts and the SNP, no MSM outlet is going to headline ‘Wings denies’, ‘ScotgoesPop denies’ or whatever but they are almost certain to have ‘SNP denies’, even if the story is nonsense and they know it.

    @Bob Mack

    The SNP rebuttal unit may exist but as far as can see it is in hibernation and probably best staying there unless the lies take legs in the media.

    @Andy Ellis

    Someone can’t make comment without an insult attached.

  65. kapelmeister says:

    On the executive committee of the Scottish Fabians is one Cat Headley. Edinburgh lawyer and 2016 Holyrood Labour candidate.

    In early 2019 Headley reportedly left Labour in protest at leader Corbyn supporting Julian Assange after his removal from the Ecuadorian embassy. However she is now back in Labour as she states on her twitter.

    But here’s the really curious bit. Headley is also a member of the advisory council of Kevin Hague’s ultra yoon think tank These Islands.

  66. Allium says:

    Well said Polly.

  67. Colin Alexander says:

    This by the Fabians is just like the SNP saying they are pro-independence but,

    Sturgeon deciding Scotland can’t even hold an advisory opinion poll or referendum on ending the Union until England gives a s30 Order, in the knowledge that England will never give a s30, if support for independence is high

  68. Eileen Brown says:

    Sturgeon would like it, though.

  69. jfngw says:

    Just to highlight my opinion does anyone one believe the Labour continual rebuttals of anti-Semitism actually done them any good. They ended up having multiple denials, it was like a serial on Newsnight.

    The best way is infiltrate a party then within the party start accusations of anti-whatever, Jeremy Corbyn couldn’t kill it. The SNP has been infiltrate by another minority using the same tactics, they are using the lets ignore it route, I doubt if that will work out either. But as I’ve said before I’m no strategists in how to deal with this but just saying throw them out I doubt will work either.There are always consequences to actions trying to predict what they will be is the hard part.

  70. Dogbiscuit says:

    I see Sturgeon is turning the screws on the hospitality industry. Has no one noticed how increasingly draconian the leaders of the ‘free world’ are becoming?
    Sturgeon is determined to advance the suicidal Green UN Agenda at the expense of our freedom.
    Look at Bill Gates body language when he is interviewed on the ‘news’
    He bounces around in his seat expansive hand gestures and constantly moving hands to his face . He is lying folks. And you can tell by the way he chews toffee with his arse that he has a big secret to hide.
    I’m still finding the lack of basic common sense that seems to characterise some of you astounding.
    Bill Gates is a danger to humanity. You’ll learn in due course.
    Why are Governments so draconian at this late stage?
    Why is Australia,Victoria under Martial Law? 8 people died in Victoria and the Government closed the state down like a ghetto.
    Get real people.

  71. Dogbiscuit says:

    Sturgeon imposes state controls on businesses. Pure communism?
    Soviet style lifestyle for us Muzhiks Capitalism for the bosses in the Politburo Sturgeon et al.

  72. Somerled says:

    Didn’t Alex Salmond suggest a new Union with England if Yes won 2014 Referendum? With Queen as monarch and agreement on defence etc?

    Wouldnt a new Union on agreed terms be better than isolation which would happen with Independence? Scotland out of UK and out of Europe as i’m not convinced Spain, France & Germany would agree to EU membership in case it helped argument for Catalonia, Basque & other regions in Europe to be independent.

    The most important thing in my opinion is for Scotland to increase prosperity, reduce poverty, improve health and education. I dont care which party does it or if its a parliament in London or Edinburgh or Brussels. So far none of them have solved these issues & people can blame tories, labour or SNP but we are all to blame. We create division rather than work together to fix the problems. A new Union with more rights & money for Scotland but better accountability so we dont have a one party state and dictatorship like is happening under Mr & Mrs Murrell.

  73. Dogbiscuit says:

    Kenny Farquharson is a state owned stenographer parroting propaganda for number 10 Press Office . All the laughable ‘news media’ on contract to the Crown.

  74. jfngw says:


    Forgot to add, if you fall into the continual denial trap the opposition parties will play you, generate a story every day that needs to be denied. It looks unbelievably negative ‘oh look the SNP are denying something again, they seem to be doing that every day now’.

    Facts can be corrected but not necessarily directly through the SNP. In essence that’s why Wings and the other sites are invaluable, the facts can be broadcast without the MSM being able to make hay out of it.

  75. Colin Alexander says:

    Did anyone see any of The Kingmakers documentary on how the Philippines was ruled by the husband and wife team of Imelda and Ferdinand Marcos as a USA backed dictatorship, so the USA could amongst other things have military bases there.

    Political opponents were jailed. The media was strictly controlled etc.

    I’ve never been to the Philippines but things seemed strangely familiar.

  76. Kenny says:

    A lot of people on this thread have correctly pointed out a lot of constitutional issues existing under the current arrangements. To be honest, I think a wing of the indy movement (I think we have all given up on the SNP!) needs to be pursuing a lot of crowdfunded court cases. There could be a role for the likes of Cherry there, but she is not the only one.

    Here is another: dereliction of duty. The Scottish Government has allowed us to be dragged out of the EU. This means that a Scot cannot enjoy previous rights, such as being able to settle (for eternity, if you like!) in another part of the EU. You are now confined to the British Isles.

    I can understand losing a battle. But the battle was never fought! According to my understanding of the constitution of Scotland, where the people is sovereign, “the people” should be taking the government (who are just the executive, after all) to court for this dereliction of duty — and the court should be censoring the government and calling for fresh elections!

  77. Colin Alexander says:

    I am favour of constitutional court cases too.

    Not because there is any expectation of Scots Law delivering justice for ordinary sovereign Scots but instead, to demonstrate how utterly corrupt Scots Law continues to be, just as it was in 1707.

    They even continue to dress up the same way too.

  78. Colin Alexander says:

    But, taking things through the courts in Scotland, to expose the corruption and injustice, would be a first step to obtaining justice by other means.

  79. jfngw says:

    @Colin Alexander

    I hope you have a lot of spare cash then, these types of cases end up pretty expensive and remember your opponent has a bottomless fund, in fact it is your money they are spending to defend the case.

    You would have thought the Keatings crowdfunding would have hit its target fairly quickly but last time I looked it wasn’t even a third of the way. Crowdfunding isn’t a bottomless pit, many people are struggling financially just now, they don’t have spare cash to fund too many cases.

  80. Xaracen says:

    So… The majoritarians want to create a minoritarian law specifically to hold a majority hostage, in order to keep the majoritarians in charge.

    Have I got that right?

  81. Juteman says:

    From the last post.
    I’ve seen those figures, but it starts at 25%.
    I would like to see figures showing 3%, 5%, 9%, etc.
    No way will a new party get 25% unless AS leads it.

  82. dakk says:

    Good post Stuart.

    Insight into the colonial mindset of the british nationalist.

    Always important to highlight for the unaware.


  83. Robert Louis says:

    A ‘new act of union’, which actually enslaves Scotland to English colonial rule even more than the current one. Fabian sociaety is an absolute joke.

    What a bunch of idiots.

    But as many before have asked, if Scotland is (according to unionists) such an economic basket case, then why, why, why does England so desperately want to hold on to us?? Why would any country hold on to another country, unless the truth was that actually England NEEDS Scotland, more than Scotland needs England.

    We have the water, the renewables, the oil and gas, the land and (wholly against our wishes) the nukes. No wonder England wants to keep us as their colony in the North, what with Scotland paying in much, much more in taxation than it ever gets back from London.

    England’s last colony, sending all its taxes to England, and handed a wee bit of it back, that’s what Scotland is, and they are desperate to cling on to us so they can keep bleeding us dry.

    There would be genuine rioting, and more, in the streets of Scotland if ANY clown EVER tried to introduce a NEW ‘act of union’. Think Ireland.

    There is only so much of this cr*p, the people of Scotland will tolerate from England.

    And do you know what really angers me, it is still the same old nonsense, which was wholly disproven in indyref 1, which unionists and their puppet media (BBC) are using , here, now in 2020. No new arguments, just the same old lies.

    ‘Scotland’s too poor, too wee, too stupid etc etc..’ Away tae f***.

    So, as I (and others) asked in 2014, aside from nostalgia, just what are the benefits of this unwanted union with England to Scotland???? Any unionists want to answer?????


    The only country which benefits is England, as it has always been.

  84. Andy Ellis says:


    Keatings crowd funder has raised 1/3 of its £150K target in a couple of days. Given current economic circumstances, I’d say that’s pretty impressive. I can understand how it probably looks like nothing to a gradualist shill like you tho’. Stun us with another. It’s always so much easier sitting on the sidelines throwing rocks at people who are actuallly you know….doing stuff…rather than sit behind their cosy anonymity decrying others.

    As for your other gems:

    “But as I’ve said before I’m no strategists in how to deal with this but just saying throw them out I doubt will work either.There are always consequences to actions trying to predict what they will be is the hard part.”

    Yeah, we’d figured from the brain farts you’re no strategist bud. TLDR version: “I have no idea what to do about this issue I’m bloviating about, but I have really strong opinions about it.”

    Sheesh. With hot takes like yours none of us would be that surprised to find out you’re at the heart of the party’s inner circle. It’d explain a whole lot. Even if you aren’t, you’ve clearly drunk deeply of the gradualist Kool-aid.

  85. Bill Hume says:

    It’s always in the small print……I learned that on this site.

  86. Bill Hume says:

    Could Colin Alexander just fuck the fuck off……that would be nice.

  87. Liz g says:

    Somerled @ 4.05
    Assuming you’re actually serious!
    Why should we be dealing and horse trading for “more rights and more money for Scotland” any more ?

    We want ALL of them..

    ALL the rights of a sovereign citizen and ALL the resources of Scotland to be dispersed from a Government of OUR choosing.

    Why should we settle for only a share of what’s ours any longer?

    I don’t even think Westminster could afford to make us a decent offer any way any more,what exactly could they bring to the table for their share of this new Union arrangement. Not to mention that they can’t be trusted is beyond dispute now.

    As for a shared monarch….No thanks,a monarchy is I believe, not on offer.
    A head of state is a very different thing from a monarch and that head of state may well be auld Lizzie Windsor in the early years. But the limits to our coin and taking an oath to the Scottish constitution may not be to her taste. She unlike our Sovereignty is entirely replaceable!
    As for defence. We’d be far better protected by a whole range of different choices ( too many to mention here ) so much so that, when Holyrood is minding its first duty of protection of Scottish citizens we’d probably find there’s no much common ground there either!!!

  88. jfngw says:

    @Andy Ellis

    I’ve come across some dense people in my life but you are the clear winner. Still trying to work out if you are really that dense or a UK asset, for your sake I hope it’s the latter because I feel sorry for you if not.

  89. Andy Ellis says:

    @Liz G

    From your lips to God’s ears!

    I’m quite open to the prospect of a list only party for Holyrood 2021 even if if it is seen as a “short term” fix. All due respect to ISP, Alliance etc, but I want something a bit more radical and with bit more hinterland.

    I reckon what we need is a new party appealing to those disillusioned with gradualism and promoting an unashamedly republican vision of how to transform Scotland from the ramshackle quasi-colony it is today to the eventual destination of a Scandinavian style social democratic republic.

    I’m drawn to the vision of the Republic movement in the Faroes: we should promote ditching the monarchy, security co-operation with our northern neighbours, banning nuclear weapons from our soil, EFTA membership, immediate Scottish currency and central bank, land reform, protection for the Scottish NHS, a real living wage, defence spending in keeping with the average of our neighbours like Denmark. We could easily save £2billion per year just on defence in comparison with the current amount we send south to help fund the bloated UK defence budget.

    Given the current direction of travel, we have a few years to get organised. The SNP are patently not going to deliver a vote in this decade absent some political earthquake.

  90. twathater says:

    I hope ANY liebour voter who is interested in independence talks to future liebour voters and exposes this undemocratic shitfest that their non Scottish party is interested in pursuing for their london masters, to imprison for life ALL of Scotland’s rich resources including WATER which they are currently STEALING and which will get worse as bozos future plans evolve

  91. Andy Ellis says:


    Strange that: folk can easily discern my background and motivations bud, because I’m not a snivelling anonymous keyboard warrior like some. I post in my own name. Even the Daily Heil could find me to include me in the #cybernat7, so it’ll come as something of a surprise to folk to find out I’m a “UK asset”.

    Not sure about you at all though. Easy to come out from under your bridge an bait actual independence supporters from the safety of your anonymity. Same old, same old.

  92. Beaker says:

    On lockdown restrictions I don’t really have any issues. However, when there are rules such as “no background music” and “no dancing” that is getting farcical.

    Perhaps some people are worried that someone will put on “Dancing Queen” and start dancing theresa style… ( apologies to those eating their dinner)

  93. SophiaPangloss says:

    How does England leave?

    Reading this post through with that question in mind it appears that the Scottish Fabians want to trap England in the Union even if they pass the hurdles of passing a Bill through 2 Westminster parliaments with super-majorities and pass the proposition at a (presumably UK-wide) referendum with a handsome super-majority *IF* one of Scotland Wales or Northern Ireland chose to vote against…

    I’m being ironic of course, if England wanted to dissolve the Acts of Union it would happen in a day, and the Scottish Fabians, dim-lighted though they are, know this, even dogs in the street know it, but it serves to illustrate how any aspect of this Ununion (I meant that) falls apart as soon as you look at it from a slightly different angle, usually the Anglian one.

  94. Dogbiscuit says:

    Digital passports heading our way engendering a caste system of those with passport willing to submit to STASI ‘test and trace’ and those without the passport .
    Those with passports and fortnightly covid tests will be allowed a semblance of a life those who refuse the fascist system will have their lives and choices severely restricted.
    I do not consent to these Government impositions on my life especially as it’s becoming increasingly obvious the whole ‘lockdown’ business is predicated on BULLSHIT.

  95. gus1940 says:

    There is no longer any doubts re the Guys In The Black Hats being in a blind panic over the threat of Indy.

    Not content with defenestrating Carcrash todays metropolitan blats are packed with hagiographic interviews with Baroness Untruth and Dross while our own Scottish msm has gone into full Jim Murphy style saturation coverage of how wonderful Dross is.

    The Heil On Sunday has an article on Bojo’s forthcoming Scottish holiday and the btl comments are worth a look.

    No doubt we shall be honoured with more desperate day trips to Scotland by panicking members of Bojo’s Band of hypocritical incompetents.

    The End of The Union Show is fast gathering momentum.

  96. Tannadice Boy says:

    Andy Ellis says

    That’s true Andy but if you lived where I do any constructive criticism is taking as disloyalty to the SNP. Especially for an ex member like myself. We are lower than the low. So I am all for your suggestion but our circumstances are not the same. That would be up to Stu. If he wants to removed anonymity then so be it.
    Ps I glad the SNP are backtracking on the SQA results. I will be the first to say problem fixed. I hope they do.

  97. twathater says:

    @ Liz 5.07pm as usual Liz g bang on the money , I honestly cannot comprehend how ANYONE could even consider TRUSTING ANYTHING coming from england as the uk govt

    Somerled @ 4.05pm if you are unaware of the corruption , lies and putrid evil that encompasses ALL WM actions I would advise that you open your eyes and educate yourself

    I personally as soon as independence is gained will be insisting that a STRICTLY ENFORCEABLE border MUST be erected

  98. jfngw says:

    @Andy Ellis

    That’s a bit weird as I can’t find any of your posting history before June 2020, you would have thought someone so devoted to the cause would have been pretty active on wings longer than that. Unless you’ve been away residing somewhere?

    P.S.I have postings going back years if you want to check.

  99. Willie says:

    Legislation like this will do one thing and one thing only.

    It will move democratic process to alternative process. Deny democracy and you open the door to utter insurrection. Even with all of the Uber surveillance of the state it is impossible to lock down, lock out, or otherwise restrain those who would fight against imposed colonialism.

    Think every Tory MP, their families and all of the colonial administrators. How safe would they be. How safe could they be. Could mother England control the backlash like they controlled Northern Ireland. Somehow even the most militaristic fascist would question the wisdom of trying to force a military solution on a population denied basic democracy.

    But maybe that is the way. GB has never had a real kicking. Yes the IRA blew the guts out of the City of London, Docklands, Manchester and much more, but they did not hit, as they said they could have hit, a nuclear power station. Now that would have got the place rocking.

    Indeed as the IRA said when they nearly killed a Prime Minister Thatcher, we were unlucky this time, but she needs to be lucky all of the time. Lord Mountbatten knows the reverse of that. But isn’t it outrageous that in the twentieth century in Northern Europe, in a developed country, that it could come to that.

    And isn’t it incredible that the stinking pit that was Northern Ireland was allowed to fester into what it became. A hell hole of violence and a secret war that the British could not win. And why. Why could GB not have introduced democracy into its backyard. Why did it have to go the way that it did.

    But maybe I worry too much. Maybe England would not ever try to introduce a New Act of Union Bill. Maybe they would never try to destroy democracy. But I’m not so sure.

    So yes, we should all take warning, and get behind democratic process to resist the U.N. democratic menace on our doorstep.

  100. Andy Ellis says:

    @Tannadice Boy

    If you feel the need to be anonymous, fair enough. It’s anyone’s right. Just a shame more folk don’t feel confident enough to stand up to the woke Stasi and gradualists at all levels. If more did the party might be in a better place. It’s sanctimonious prigs like @jfngw & Bungo I have an issue with.

    It’s sad that the BTL comments seem infested with gradualist shills and party ultra loyalists like them. It’s beyond me why they think they won’t be picked up on this site, above all others, for their knee jerk atavistic party line.

  101. Col.Blimp IV says:

    This stushie about the Union has gone on long enough. It was never put to the people of Scotland in the first place.

    When the Holyrood parliament was opened they described it as The Scottish Parliament re-convening after a particularly lengthy break.

    Is it not about time they asked the people what we thought about this “Union” with England chicanery?

    Why not put the Ratification of The Treaty of Union to a vote, using the Kesia Dugdale/Scottish Fabian Society super majority idea?

    If it fails to get a 66% majority then booh-hooh the union is over.

  102. Republicofscotland says:

    The bigot and racist denier of democracy Boris Johnson is heading to Scotland for two weeks holiday. Of course apart from asset stripping Scotland, the rich and powerful like to come to Scotland, to do a bit of fishing and shooting, afterall isn’t that how they perceive Scotland, as a big play park to be used at their convenience.

    Johnson praised a poem that called for the extermination of Scots, he also wrote a derogatory column about Scots in his earlier days at the Telegraph newspaper. I wonder if Johnsons related to Kelvin MacKenzie?

  103. Andy Ellis says:


    I’ve been posting on here for year too, more often as @ndls61 as that was my (non-anonymous) twitter handle before the twitler youth had it canned.

    I wasn’t querying how long you’ve posted for, just your cowardice hiding behind an anonymous handle.

    Happy to help.

  104. jfngw says:

    Is Eastwood going to be a contest between a used car salesman and a Virgin Media salesman, what a choice.

  105. Colin Alexander says:

    Bill Hume

    Sharing a website with gutter-mouthed people like you is a bit of a downer.

    But, I’ll hang around just that wee bit longer than I intended just to cheese you off all the more haha.

  106. Thomas Valentine says:

    What it is saying in the document is there should be no PEACEFUL means to achieve independence. Perhaps they should ask the people of England if they agree to someone else saying Scottish independence would happen over “their” dead bodies.

  107. BLMac says:

    It’s time for the Scottish govt to grow some balls.

    Announce the Treaty of Union is dissolved, and that we will hold a confirmatory referendum.

    Doing it that way means we can ban parties governed by foreign powers from participating.

  108. Colin Alexander says:

    Imelda, sorry I mean Nicola, has already announced what she and hubby have decided will be SNP policy for Holyrood 2021.

    She’s waving the indyref carrot in front of the sheep’s noses again.

    Baa Baa Bill Hume haha.

  109. The Brutish Labour MP George Cunningham that put in the 40% amendment for the 79 devolution referendum was a member of the Fabian Society,

    this amendment held back devolution for 20 years,

    and also brought about the horror of eleven years of Tory misrule from Maggie Thatcher,

    the Brutish Labour Fabian Society is deffo a wolf in sheep`s clothing.

  110. jfngw says:


    I mentioned something along similar lines some time ago. A plebiscite election followed by a referendum, as people seem to like the idea of a referendum to confirm things.

    But my referendum isn’t to overturn the election but confirm the deal reached with the English Empire. Either accept the deal or no deal (if we make it reversible the deal offered by the Empire would be to try and reverse the result).

  111. Polly says:

    @ jfngw

    Ok, your further comments clarify your position somewhat, but I still disagree with you. Your position seems to be don’t give any legitimacy to bad proposals which would harm Scotland or independence until they get big enough to already be printed in papers/talked of on tv? A bit late then for you will be on back foot and their plans far advanced. Also in highlighting that early SNP would not be defending but attacking, making Labour have to take the defensive position.

    Yes Labour were outmanoeuvred to participate in continual denial which looks weak and as if they were guilty. But a lot of that was failure by Corbyn to come out fighting. He was a weak dishrag of a man as far as public speaking or most PMQs went (which is why old Marmalade looked good in comparison) and if I remember right he started ignoring journalists in the street. What was needed was for someone to come out fighting and with the authority to deal in party with the various factions. Boris kicked many out of the party in a bold move, and much as I despise the man, that kind of thing is often needed. Sturgeon does answer the press but all she mostly ever criticises is her own side, she rebuts but doesn’t attack the other side often enough. What’s needed if facing accusations like that is address them, debunk them and fight back quickly, loudly and often. That’s how some other leaders do it, it seems to work.

    Yes, Wings does wonders and so do other bloggers on occasion, but it doesn’t make up for lack of proper newspapers on our side, tv, or a better, punchier SNP party, most members of which when given airtime play softly and try to be reasonable. We’re under attack constantly from all sides, we need to fight every inch, tooth and nail. I saw Stuart said a while ago something like the SNP need a non vile version of me. He was right. I see now he often is. He and all he’s done is invaluable but it passes to folk on social media who can pass it on but it doesn’t reach enough and then too many folk also on social media and many SNP wouldn’t touch anything he says with a barge pole. They hate him to the exclusion of the truth he tells. Biased folk don’t want to see when their opponent tells the truth.

    The whole SNP party and all activists should be the rebuttal unit, each and every time they’re given a chance. Were I the leader of the party I would take Stuart in house and create a real rebuttal unit. If I won the lottery big I’d start a newspaper and plead with him to run it, not only before but especially after independence. I noticed Robertson recreated the ‘yes to no’ video type done so well by Phantom Power when there was no need. We do need a strong unit to come out fighting and it’s not Murray Foote.

  112. jfngw says:

    Jack McConnell tells the Scotgov to get the exam fiasco sorted out or resign. By sorted out I assume he means as we only reduced 23% of the grades and E&W reduced 40% of them we need to return some of these grades to England as we obviously have too many.

    You would have thought these BritNats would be pushing for alignment, I just don’t understand why.

    As I said before the SNP will fold on this, they usually do. E & W won’t, they will then claim the Scottish results have been demeaned as the pass rate is unrealistic. The same parties that forced this change will then want an enquiry as to why the Scottish exams are now of less value. The BBC are already on the case.

  113. Colin Alexander says:

    BLMac @6.30PM

    Spot on. Your comment earns the Brownie points.

  114. schrodingers cat says:

    realistically, before they park tanks on the lawn in front of holyrood, wm is more likely to pull a stint like this.

    is their anything, other than being outraged, we could do to stop it?

    i still think we should pre-empt such an attempt and bring forward the holyrood election before wm legislates independence out of existence

  115. Polly says:

    Stupid me ‘no to yes’ of course

  116. schrodingers cat says:

    someone just donated £2000 to martin keatings legal fund 🙂

  117. Polly says:

    ‘i still think we should pre-empt such an attempt and bring forward the holyrood election before wm legislates independence out of existence’

    Just a pity it’s been left til the last minute to try anything.

  118. Shug says:

    Hi stu I do hope you are keeping a wee list of the key corrupt contracts and peerages offered by Cummings and co for the next wee blue book

    Keep safe

  119. Tannadice Boy says:

    Jfngw says

    You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Think if you were a fifth year pupil with an A in prelim maths and your final grade was D. This is a real problem and not some BritNat Yoon conspiracy as you would say. This was made at home. Get it sorted.

  120. Breeks says:

    Colin Alexander says:
    9 August, 2020 at 4:23 pm
    But, taking things through the courts in Scotland, to expose the corruption and injustice, would be a first step to obtaining justice by other means….

    But I don’t think a Constitutional Test case would be, or even could be, determined in a Scottish Court. It’s not domestic law, but International law. It would be determined at the UN, and I hope something parallel goes before the Council of Europe, which might stick a spanner in the works for Brexit, if the UK’s subjugation of Scotland is recognised as unconstitutional, rendering Brexit as proposed unlawful.

  121. Somerled says:

    Liz G

    I’m an ex SNP and ex Indy. I no longer see the point to be honest. You say Westminster is corrupt but the Scottish Government is as bad. The SNP have spent over a decade in power and while a few things are okay, look at the mess in education, hospitals unused, Hate crime bill, GRA reform. I think an independent Scotland would be a financial disaster, out of EU & out of UK.

    While i accept some people think otherwise & can make a guess on economy & currency, there are too many uncertainties & risk, even more than Brexit. Any Indyref2 would need to discuss everything first and have a proper plan, not just wishful thinking.

    I think there are far too many Indy supporters who are Anti English or hate GB or hate tories because of Thatcher 40 years ago and seem to want Scotland as a republic like Ireland with Sturgeon or Salmond as President just as revenge against Westminster/England with no idea what to do after Indy. Look at Craig Murray with his get indy first then discuss GRA reform, now Alyn Smith says Indy is all that matters & is wants to throw disabled & BAME out of the NEC.

    There is not one SNP MP or MSP who i think is a decent politician, most are after the salary, expenses & pension. Sturgeon is good at the talk but is devious, a liar and as totally corrupt. Joanna Cherry is a strong contender & good for womens rights but isnt interested in child safeguarding and said James Rennie of LGBT Youth raping a baby boy was ‘unfortunate’ and wasnt interested in an Inquiry. How many SNP people like Humza are concerned about the child abuse at Celtic.

    You will say the usual ‘whatabout Westminster’ and i agree there is a lot wrong there too but the Union has worked for 300 years, its not great but is better than any alternative ive seen suggested. What Scotland needs is Scottish politicians of all parties putting Scotland first, making Scotland a success and doing best to sort all the problems. I dont see many doing that at present & i think creating more division with Westminster is a huge mistake.

    I wont convince any of the diehard indy supporters here and unless someone produces a comprehensive plan for independence then I will stay unconvinced. I think we should have another Indyref someday in about 20 years time but lets try and fix things with Westminsters help first.

  122. Davie Oga says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    9 August, 2020 at 7:07 pm
    “realistically, before they park tanks on the lawn in front of holyrood, wm is more likely to pull a stint like this.

    is their anything, other than being outraged, we could do to stop it?”

    Aye, but there’s a good chance you end up dead or in jail for a long, long time. You
    would be denounced by the majority, and the full force of the state would be used against you.

  123. iain mhor says:

    @Andy Ellis 12:52pm

    Actually Dominion status would in fact be the fastest way to indpendence; Dominions and Colonies worldwide have more inherent rights to it than Scotland.

    For a very interesting precis on Dominions, the Commonwealth and rights of secession; From Bonar Law & Balfour, to the Irish Free State, South Africa, Canada, India, Burma et-al see:

    Of course there are many papers on the rights and principles of independence – most regarding Great Britain & its Commonwealth, Colonies and Dominions – no surprise there.

    The current international principles and laws surrounding ‘Decolonization’ (sic) simply reinforce the fact; that Scotland the Dominion, Colony, or Crown dependency, would be far superior in sovereignty, than her currently accepted position as annexed and failed Nation State..

  124. Tannadice Boy says:

    Somerlad says

    I am an ex SNP member as well but I cling to the Indy dream. I would agree the performance of SG is rubbish. And there doesn’t seem to be an obvious way to correct the direction either. Talk of burning the house down?. They are public servants in our pay. Mainstream Scottish opinion will have their day.

  125. mike cassidy says:


    But cheer yourself up by imagining this as a part the Hate Bill coming our way.


    You know its a hate crime.

    Young Scot, Daniel Sloss is no doubt glad he got this routine in early

  126. Andy Ellis says:


    Ex-indy I can just about buy. In any mass movement you’ll always have a leavening of roasters swimming determinedly in the opposite direction. Hence, it is no doubt true that there are some “Yes to No” folk out there, it’s pretty obvious there are a lot more “No to Yes”.

    I find it harder to credit you’re ex-SNP. That’s quite some Damascene conversion: from pro-indy party member to “full cringe too wee, too poor, too stupid” in a relatively short period?

    Insisting on every i being dotted and every t being crossed is an old yoon trope. Fixing things with Westminter’s help? Waiting 20 years for indyref2? Are you for real?

    Wow…just wow. Truly you are the contrarians contrarian!

  127. Polly says:


    I’m sorry but you are not credible in what you say. There is no ring of truth in that whole post. You are a unionist through and through. I refuse to believe you ever voted for SNP. You sound very Labour like to me. Which is fine if you want to argue for that, but don’t preface it as you did, not if you want any of your arguments against independence to be believed.

  128. mike cassidy says:

    And here’s the link to the veganphobia

  129. schrodingers cat says:

    Polly says:

    Just a pity it’s been left til the last minute to try anything.


    not really polly, the earliest date appears to be dec 7th. bear in mind, even if we wait till may2021, it is unlikely we will be able to campaign as normal, leaflet, canvasing etc. (crowds, re football and auob marches are also unlikely.

    however, the uptake in postal votes is likely to be in our favour. safety precautions in a polling place dont look too difficult

    we could vote before we leave the eu, something we have a mandate to do!

    i think people fixate too much on referendums and elections. what we have is a consistent 50%+ support in the polls. that needs somehow to be translated into a public vote.

    there is an inevitability about this happening, as such, the only way i can think of for wm to stop this is by actually stopping the vote ever taking place.

    the douglas&ruth show isnt going to reverse the tory’s fortune in scotland.

    we are getting down to the wire now, regardless of what new acts or hurdles they put in our way, this vote must happen.

    it marks the end of the democratic road

  130. jfngw says:


    It’s a fine line getting this right, I’m not saying don’t rebut anything but make sure it is worthwhile, keep control of the situation. It’s not proposals that are the problem but planted negative nonsense the ‘critics have claimed’ (this normally means another party). I think this is too complex to try and fit in the space here without producing reams of text and annoying/boring everyone else.

    Boris Johnson can sack as many people as he likes, he has 90% of the press on his side, and there are no broadcasters I trust to impart the news with impartiality. The SNP has none of these advantages, that is not going to change. I’m not even totally convinced about The National, to many cross stories with the Herald and I have no time for the ferret or Bella.

    Even if there was an effective unit, would the media give it any time, they would always follow it up with the three other parties, always outnumbered three to one. This is going to be a hard slog and I still feel it is the activist spreading the message that is important, unfortunately it seems we are losing a lot of them.

    I think you are correct about Stuart C, there is probably just too much baggage there now. I think the same is probably true of Craig Murray but he is too much of a free spirit anyway, I wouldn’t want responsibility of keeping him restrained.

    Remember everything I write is just my opinion, I’m not claiming to be correct or be an expert on any of these topics. If I was I would be a lot richer.

  131. schrodingers cat says:

    @dave oga

    aye, but point being, we need to translate the 50%+ support into some kind of public vote.

    whatever happens after that, we need to be able to demonstrate that we have the majority support from the people of scotland

    I think in the event of a 50%+ vote where wm says no, the unionist voters would be split

  132. Ian Foulds says:

    ‘Neil Mackenzie says:
    9 August, 2020 at 1:15 pm
    The dictionary definition of secession requires there to be a new state and a continuing state but the UK would not continue beyond Scottish independence. The nature of the Union is integral. Without Scotland, the union would not continue. There would, instead, be two new states. One called Scotland and the other called The Kingdom of England. The Kingdom of England would naturally include Wales but not Northern Ireland. Wales didn’t form a union with England. It was conquered by England long before The Kingdom of Scotland formed a union with The Kingdom of England. Northern Ireland’s status a possessed UK province is another matter along with various other possessed UK ‘assets’ which The Kingdom of Scotland currently possesses in union with The Kingdom of England. This whole idea of secession doesn’t work for the UK. Secession is not what Scottish independence would be.’

    I apologise now that I may have misinterpreted our history.

    I understand, unfortunately, that the United Kingdom will still remain after our political independence, as the UK came into being in 1603 and the political union evolved in 1706 and 1707 with the Acts and then the Treaty of (political) Union.

    The Kingdom of Ireland and the Principality (now a Country) of Wales were under the remit of the English Kingdom at that time.

    So even if we separate politically, I believe we are stuck with the royal connection until the sovereign people of Scotland rule that such a Union is kaput.

  133. schrodingers cat says:

    I think england becoming the successor state of the uk would suit scotland well.

    it leaves very little to be negotiated, eg, they keep all the assets, debts, treaties, the PS at the un etc

    we leave. end of

  134. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Juteman at 4:45 pm.

    You typed,
    From the last post.
    I’ve seen those figures, but it starts at 25%.
    I would like to see figures showing 3%, 5%, 9%, etc.
    No way will a new party get 25% unless AS leads it.”

    The “What percentage of the regional SNP vote would have had to vote for a hypothetical ‘Pro-Indy’ party in the 2016 election?” is easy to work out if you look at the figures for each region at:-,_2016

    For example, if 10% of the SNP regional vote had moved to Pro-Indy, that party would have won no list seats in Central Scotland, Glasgow, Lothian, Mid Scotland and Fife, North East Scotland and West Scotland.

    You just take 10% of the SNP’s regional vote and compare it to the smallest party vote that achieved an MSP. For example, in Central Scotland, the SNP’s regional vote was 129,082.
    10% is 12,908.
    In my ‘wurky-out’ of Central Scotland, (with ‘Pro-Indy’ getting 25% of the SNP vote), the last seat available was taken by Labour with their 16,776 so with only 10%, the carve-up of regional seats would have benefited the unionist parties. Pro-Indy would have been unsuccessful.

    Incidently, I also looked at these percentages of the SNP vote in Central Scotland moving to Pro-Indy – 100%, 90%, 80% and 70%. Pro-Indy would have won 4 seats at all percentages upward from 80% and 3 at 70%. 4 seats was the ceiling – on 80% of the SNP’s vote shifting!

    As you probably saw at Quarantine, I’ve only done NE Scotland, Mid Scotland & Fife and Central Scotland, for the hypothetical 25%/40% Pro-Indy share of the SNP’s vote.

    I was intending just to do the other three regions where the SNP had no list seats but JGedd suggested in ‘off-topic’ that it would be interesting to see what would have happened in Highlands and Islands and South Scotland, the two regions where the SNP did win list seats.

    Hopefully I’ll get them all completed in the next couple of weeks.

  135. jfngw says:

    @Tannadice Boy

    I suspect the situation you are highlighting is rare, my understanding is most of the regrading is only one band. Your scenario should almost certainly be followed up by an appeal, there probably have been some mistakes made for whatever reason.

    The reports I’ve seen seem to indicate there won’t even be appeals available elsewhere.

    If the predictions in the past have been fairly accurate then it would seem OK to award the predictions. If there is a history of over prediction then you can’t just accept these predictions. The work has to be analysed to see if it is at the required standard.

  136. Fireproofjim says:

    Andy Ellis says he would like a Scandinavian type Democratic Republic. Only problem there is that all the Scandinavian countries of any size are monarchies. However I agree that it is a decision for after independence.

  137. Frank anderson says:

    It is written into the rules of the society that it has no policies. All the publications carry a disclaimer saying that they do not represent the collective views of the society but only the views of the authors. “No resolution of a political character expressing an opinion or calling for action, other than in relation to the running of the Society itself, shall be put forward in the name of the Society.”[49]

    So it is all meaningless waffle!

  138. Polly says:

    @ Cat

    ‘it marks the end of the democratic road’ No, even then it’s not the end of the democratic road. There are ways and means after that too, and I do believe independence will happen, when though and after how much damage is the question. But my previous remark was more something should have been done by the party long before now so we weren’t so almost out of time and options.

  139. Tannadice Boy says:

    Jfngw says

    Rare? 125000 downgrades. Prospective careers ruined. We slaughtered this cohort of fifth year pupils. I am not standing for it even though I have no direct interest in the outcome. Disappointment is par for the course at this time of year. I and hundred of thousands of Scottish people can see the injustice. Get it sorted on Tuesday.

  140. Liz g says:

    Somerled @ 7.23
    That’s it…that’s yer conclusion…
    Fix Scotland up with Westminster help and over all control,is the best option we have…… This is Boris Johnson’s Westminster ye pin yer future on ?
    I pity ye man I really do.

    I would like to know in which universe this Union actually worked for any of those 300 year’s and fur whom exactly did it work?
    Because right here right now I’m no feelin it and it doesn’t sound like you are either.

    Get aff yer knees man and open yer eye’s that union has nothing we Scots need or want and it never did!
    When something is dead the best thing to dae is bury it surely we can agree on that at least ?

  141. jfngw says:

    @Tannadice Boy

    Rare as in going from A to F, dropping one grade from the prediction is not rare even in the real exams, 125k did not drop from A to F. The pass rate has gone up, the differential pass rate between social groups has gone down. Your outburst is just hyperbole but I suspect you will get your way and the Scottish education system will be seen as untrustworthy for quality.

    Congratulations all those who are campaigning to make the Scottish exam system a laughing stock.

  142. Stuart MacKay says:


    So many targets hit with so few arrows. I think you ticked all the disaafection boxes with one volley.

    Anyways, you said

    What Scotland needs is Scottish politicians of all parties putting Scotland first, making Scotland a success and doing best to sort all the problems

    But that’s the thing. Only with independence will you get your wish. Right now priority number one for Liebor and The Crime Syndicate is opposing whatever the SNP do regardless of whether it makes any sense because the paymasters in London need to undermine the Scottish Government at any cost, including building any consensus that might solve Scotland”s problems.

  143. schrodingers cat says:


    i think it does,

    of course politicians will continue with legal challenges etc, mps will walk out of wm.

    but what of the voters and activists? bojo saying no to a 50%+ vote?

    in what sense does the democratic road still exist for them?

  144. Somerled says:

    Andy & Polly

    You can believe whatever you want and it seems typical indy tactic to throw insults about. Everything i said is true. I was a SNP member about 15 years ago for about a year but unemployment meant i stopped paying for membership.I was previously a Liberal voter. I voted Yes in 2014 and supported SNP until last year. Started following Wings & donated because i thought Kezia trial was wrong. Stu knows my real name as i emailed him over a year ago and offered to provide academic journals etc as i am a mature student and disabled too.

    To begin with on Twitter i was shocked by how vicious so many SNP voters are to tories etc online, much worse than vice versa. I experienced it twice myself last year while still supporting Indy ( i wont mention names as both quite well known) and had to get Police involved for one.Also My dad was in RAF and so many SNP MPs MSPs are anti GB including anti forces, and i started to doubt my support. With GRA, hate crime etc i realised i couldnt vote SNP any more as i have very little in common with most ie Celtic fans (i dont support anyone), republicans, PLO & Sein Fein supporters,etc. I think SNP are totally corrupt and i see no one in the indy movement who i think could run an independent scotland and the best Scottish politicians including SNP go to WM.

    Gradually i came to realise Scotland has achieved many great things in this Union and we are better together. There is too much hatred & division & the SNP seems to enjoy that for their own benefit, rather than fix the problems here. I still read Wings to see if anything has changed my mind and what puts me off the most are folk like you with hate and insults. . I will be waiting a long time because i sincerely believe independence will never ever happen but if you want to waste your time following the SNP rainbow (and i dont mean the SNP favourite subject LGBT) then thats up to you. I have better things to do.

  145. Tannadice Boy says:

    Jfngw says

    Ok let’s see what the fallout will be if you come up with nothing on Tuesday. You are trying to sell me something I have been selling for years. Dreams. I can tell from your responses you have no children. Or at least none that have an active interest in the outcome. It’s the lack of empathy. You must be getting paid well to sell out the next generation.

  146. Doug says:

    English/British nationalists of whatever variety can never be trusted. They are the enemy of Scotland.

  147. Liz g says:

    Shrodingers Cat @ 7.49
    Then I hope you’re never anywhere near the negotiating team.
    You’d part wi all the UK assets before even knowing their worth?
    Are ye mad?
    Even the English would probably be better served by opening up the books of the UK !
    Are ye also forgetting the priceless stuff stored ” on behalf of the nation ” by the Windsors…..some of that stuff is identifyably ours,it’s our history and heritage…we have nae right to walk away from that!
    Not to mention an interest in all those territories the UK plant the butcher’s work on….

  148. Liz g says:

    Dhu…Butchers Apron..

  149. schrodingers cat says:

    @liz g

    they would take the 3£trillion debt too.

    we can extort artifacts like the lewis chess men and the elgin marbles out of them once indy in exchange for electricty, oil, gas, petrol, water etc:)

    clean cut, job done

  150. jfngw says:

    @Tannadice Boy

    There seems to be quite a number of posters on here with telepathic powers that can tell you what you politics are now even your domestic situation.

    I’m not coming up with anything on Tuesday, I’m not involved in any capacity and I don’t have the qualifications to adjust any ones grades anyway (neither does John Swinney as he didn’t actually mark any of the assessments).

    Exams aren’t marked on empathy but ability. If we are judging peoples abilities on empathy then the pass rate would always be 100%. Students are disappointed every year, it’s no different this year.

    I assume you are also advocating those that received boosted grades have these reduced as they must also be suspect, you can’t have one without the other surely.

  151. Doug says:

    English/British nationalist Westminster is a world-wide laughing stock. Being part of it seriously damages Scotland. SNP MPs must withdraw from the cesspit that is Westminster.

    Do that and Westminster, unless it accepts the end of the union, will be rightly seen by the rest of the world as the unfunniest of exposed clowns wobbling around with its trousers about its feet.

  152. Doug says:

    English/British nationalist Westminster is a world-wide laughing stock. Being part of it seriously damages Scotland. SNP MPs must withdraw from the cesspit that is Westminster.

    Do that and Westminster, unless it accepts the end of the union, will be rightly seen by the rest of the world as the unfunniest of exposed clowns wobbling around with its breeks about its feet.

  153. jfngw says:

    @schrodingers cat

    Not sure I want the Elgin marbles, they should be in Greece.

  154. terence callachan says:

    Tannadice boy ….you are incorrect saying there have been 125,000 downgrades I reckon you took that from the Scotsman.

    Let’s look at facts

    Here is a copy from the SQA of results this year and the link to prove it

    This year despite the difficulties of covid19 we have more passes than last year the highest ever

    138,000 learners receive their results.

    Deputy First Minister John Swinney has congratulated all learners who have today received their results.

    With exams cancelled for the first time ever due to Coronavirus, young people are receiving qualifications based on a combination of teacher judgment and national moderation by the Scottish Qualifications Authority (SQA), which show that:

    the National 5 pass rate was 81.1%
    the Higher pass rate was 78.9%
    the Advanced Higher pass rate was 84.9%
    In 2019:

    the National 5 pass rate was 78.2%
    the Higher pass rate was 74.8%
    the Advanced Higher pass rate was 79.4%

  155. jfngw says:

    It’s been a serious day, time for something less intense.

  156. Tannadice Boy says:

    Jfngw says

    I am asking for fairness and integrity. Concepts you appear to be unfamiliar with. That’s my last response to you. You are not interested in making a better Scotland. I am glad you are not in a position of responsibility and have no say in influencing policy. I wonder why you post?. I post defence of our bairns.

  157. Liz g says:

    Shrodingers Cat @ 8.35
    That may very well be what happens,my point was we cannot say that till we know the actual value of the assets.
    Why would we agree blind

  158. Oneliner says:


    Good Gaelic name there. Your ancestors missed out on the attempted ethnic cleansing of the Gaels then?
    Given the above atrocity, I’m surprised that you think the Union has worked for 300 years.

  159. bipod says:

    Poor Donald trump, he should have just cancelled all elections for the next year and a half and said that he understands and found it really difficult to do, but still had to do it anyway. Just like nicola.

  160. jfngw says:

    @Tannadice Boy

    ‘bairns’ are you sure your Scottish, are you posting from your ‘but’n’ben’ and reading The Broons at the same time.

  161. terence callachan says:

    Tannadice boy…

    Three quarters of results estimated by teachers were allowed to stand
    But a quarter were changed
    Of the quarter that were changed most were downgraded but some were upgraded

    Why ?
    Well they do this every year to ensure that a pass really deserves a pass and an A really deserves an A basically to prevent a watering down of what is required to get a pass or an A etc.
    Giving everyone high marks dilutes the quality and reputation of the qualification
    which is especially important to employers and colleges/ universities

    It’s nothing new
    This always happens

    This year is obviously more difficult to get right because of that one gigantic glaring fact they did not sit any exams because of covid19

    Every child has in Scotland the right of appeal if they think their mark should be higher
    In England there is no right of appeal
    So Scotland does it the correct way there should always be a right of appeal

    It’s not injustice

    They have done a fantastic job in extremely difficult circumstances passes are higher at every level in all exams this year

    Are you one of those people who expected the Scottish government to give everyone a pass and give everyone a pass as an A ?

  162. OldPete says:

    Dogbiscuit you do really live in a Twilight Zone, dont you dodo dodo dodo dodo

  163. Tannadice Boy says:

    It’s your no Scottish and you have never lived in Scotland that gets me. Stu enjoy Bath. They lose the argument then they question your authenticity. Luckily I have a vote in 2021 and its definitely not going to the SNP. I saw in your earlier posts you were tired I had a beautiful day today went to our favourite haunts. Scotland is a beautiful country in the sun. Things will change.

  164. OldPete says:

    Well said Terence.

  165. Breeks says:

    Scotland CANNOT secede from the UK any more than the UK could “secede” from the EU. The disengagement of Scotland from England will end a Union between constitutional equals because that was the basis upon which the Union was created. It is simply inappropriate to think of Scottish Independence as an act of secession. Did the UK “secede” from the EU? Of course it didn’t. It left a Union which it had joined.

    It is simply wrong, but sadly, the perception persists in the minds of people who are misinformed about the truth, or “misinforming” about the truth in the case of the UK Government trying to assert Scotland would be a successor state. It isn’t true.

    It is precisely this kind of uncertainty and disinformation which a more professional pro Independence body like the SNP should have blown out of the water, and have a crystal clear grasp of the Constitutional reality and know exactly what constitutes the end of the Union, what must be done to achieve that goal, and knows categorically when those explicit criteria are met.

    All this muddle headed garbage about secession, Section 30 Agreements, and the muddled abandonment of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty would not exist if the Independence movement as a whole sat down and boiled all the superfluous flesh off Scotland’s place in the Union until the bare bones of it were all that was left… the critical essentials of what ties us in this Union, and what specific action breaks us free.

    The SNP seems to be making it up as it goes along, and is coming unstuck through what seems like an absurdly childish naivety concerning the Scottish Constitution, but I have to say, the whole YES movement seems little better informed. Small wonder there is no consensus on where we go from here to get to there.

    There’s an expression in SCUBA diving that you plan the dive, then dive the plan. In other words, you plan what you are going to do in explicit detail, identify key objectives and work out ALL the details, and once you begin your dive, you stick to that plan rigidly.

    That is what Independence needs. Clear, explicit end-game objectives and details, and an end to this indecisive blowing hot and cold about a referendum. It’s just sloppy apart from anything else and leaves people confused and exasperated. There isn’t a plan, we’re all just dodging away and hoping the path becomes clear by some divine intervention.

    Plan the dive, and dive the plan. Decide where the finish line actually is for Scotland to become Independent and focus all our efforts on achieving that destination by the most efficient and direct route possible.

    We really do need to grow up and define our own objectives and build up our confidence so that we can be much more assertive and discriminatory when the certainties of Scotland’s Constitution are being disputed or encroached upon by Westminster’s pernicious colonialism.

    Blame Westminster all you like, but be in no doubt, it is OUR uncertainty which is creating the gap which encourages Westminster to drive a coach and horses through our disorganised confusion. This uncertainty is our greatest weakness and it must be addressed or we will never coordinate ourselves to establish any forward momentum.

  166. OldPete says:

    Tannadice Boy maybe you and Dogbiscuit could both meet up in your Twilight Zone version of Scotland and leave sounder minds to deal with reality.

  167. Tannadice Boy says:

    Old Pete says

    Disappointing comment from you

  168. schrodingers cat says:

    Plan the dive, and dive the plan.

    great stuff, and your plan is………

  169. jfngw says:

    @terrence callachan

    I don’t always agree with everything you write, that’s the whole point though isn’t it. You are 100% correct about the efforts of the SQA, they have done a wonderful job under difficult circumstance. Of course there has probably been mistake, it would be miraculous if there wasn’t, the appeals I would hope should correct these.

  170. schrodingers cat says:

    an end to this indecisive blowing hot and cold about a referendum. It’s just sloppy apart from anything else and leaves people confused and exasperated.

    we can only move forward with the consent of the people of scotland

    in 2017, only 38% backed indyref2, it was the people who blew cold on the idea, not the yessers.

  171. Breeks says:


    Can anybody shed some light on this business of Nicola Sturgeon possibly breaching the Ministerial Code but not reporting a meeting she had with Alex Salmond?

    Is it just a minor issue which constitutes a technical breach of the rules, or is it something more substantial, like saying she was only told about the accusations against Alex Salmond upon a certain date, when this is proven untrue because she had meetings on the subject before that date and thus clearly knew much more than she claimed?

    I’m not fully grasping the significance of this. Minor misdemeanour or smoking gun indicative of deeper skullduggery?

  172. jfngw says:

    @schrodingers cat

    That is the crux of the matter you can have as many cunning plans as you like but if you can’t persuade over 50% of the voters to support it you are sunk.

    This is why I have reservation of voting for a another list party if we have a plebiscite election. They will find holes in the vote if there is a difference between anything on party’s manifesto’s and claim the vote has to be over 50% for one party.

    If it is plebiscite it has to be one independence party against the parties financed from England, we need no ambiguity. I can’t see parties like the Green’s playing ball though, unless we can create an independence alliance for the election. Need someone with a bit more savvy than me on electoral law though to tell us what is feasible.

  173. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @somerled (7.23) –

    ‘I wont convince any of the diehard indy supporters here and unless someone produces a comprehensive plan for independence then I will stay unconvinced. I think we should have another Indyref someday in about 20 years time but lets try and fix things with Westminsters help first.’

    Like others above I don’t believe you are real, but if you are seriously going to try and impersonate disgruntled indy supporters, please factor in to your characterisation the remarkable fact that no equivalent of the IRA has ever emerged in Scotland, and there appears no likelihood of it happening. You and your ilk should, if even privately, take time to reflect on that. If the people of Scotland have no appetite for armed uprising, fair enough. Be thankful. Exploiting that trait as if it were a weakness is to tempt fate.

  174. Rm says:

    Submitted a post which was accepted but hasn’t came through, anything wrong?

  175. Tannadice Boy says:

    Hands up anybody that worked for the SQA,
    Me but as an independent consultant! Do I think they are a perfect organisation. No. Do I think they try their best? I do. Do I think they have got this right. No I am English No. I have I always lived in Scotland. Yes. How far does my fathers line go?. To the Jacobite rebellion and then I don’t know because we were Gadgees. Nothing recorded. Get it sorted on Tuesday.

  176. Rm says:

    Two posts not been accepted any reason for that?

  177. Robert Louis says:

    Breeks at 922pm,

    Yet another excellent post. Scotland is in a union, a union, which it can leave whenever it wishes. This is why folk are getting so angry at the SNP, since this nonsense about a section 30, is just that, nonsense. More to the point, England has no right to unilaterally, forcibly remove Scotland from the EU against its wishes.

    These simple aspects of Scotland’s position within the union need hammered home, clearly and repeatedly, so not just Scots, but the murderous lying Tories in London also know.

    And that brings another point, most of the murderous Tories in Downing Street right now are ‘eton boys’, so probably have an incredibly ill-informed, jaundiced view of the union treaty. I fully expect that when the pig-like, De Pfeffle speaks of the ‘union’ he has, in all likelihood, bu**er all idea of what the union is in reality.

    But then when you have an SNP first Minister on bended knee, begging permission for the right to hold a referendum from England’s racist government, it is quite likely that even she doesn’t understand the union treaty either – and she is an actual solicitor.

    The way to understand it is to simply remember this, if it were England who wanted to leave the union, do we really think they would ask Scotland’s permission first??? No, they would just do it. That is what Scotland needs to do, and the sooner the better.

  178. Orri says:

    Think the problem is in which capacity did Sturgeon meet Salmond. The same game eternally played by unionists. If it was in a personal capacity or even a party one and Sturgeon did not pass on government information he was not entitled to then that’s really not anyone’s business. If Salmond told Sturgeon there was an investigation into him and that was genuinely the first she knew the that’s more of a plot against them both to rob her of any advice or support her mentor might give her.

  179. dakk says:

    “I’m so tired.” 1.27

    That from Stuart at 1.27.

    That doesn’t sound like Stuart.

    Coded Distress call.

  180. jfngw says:


    Have you checked there are no banned words even inside other words, that’s the most common reason. I wouldn’t keep posting it though if it is the same text, the Rev hates that.

  181. Orri says:

    The only list party worth voting for is one that says if over 50% vote for them that’s your plebiscite right there. No referendum needed. If not then they back a referendum S30 or not. Might just win but if not should get enough votes for one or two seats in each region.

    Then again Sturgeon might decide three ballots is better than two and go for indyref2 on polling day.

  182. Andy Ellis says:


    The Scots people weren’t voting for indyref2 in 2017. They were voting in a General Election (and one which the SNP monstrously mishandled by the way). It was the party that let the people down, not the other way around.

    The Scots people didn’t consent to being wrenched out of the EU. They don’t think Westminster should veto indyref2. They don’t want a no deal brexit. 54% now want indepedence, but the SNP have contrived a situation whereby we’re very unlikely to get a vote on it this decade.

    Anyone not wearing blinkers can see who is blowing cold…..

  183. jfngw says:


    That was a bit concerning, and I think some of the attacks on him have taken their toll, especially from those here BTL. I don’t think I have ever criticised him, I hope not anyway and my comment today that caused this response wasn’t actually directed at him personally, I was referring to the SNP, maybe my wording wasn’t clear enough.

  184. Tannadice Boy says:

    I picked that up as well after a day
    of enjoying myself it has to be said. But the responses to my latter posts questioning whether I was Scottish sickened me. And it is thousands times worse for him. I guess the SNP want to shut him down.

  185. schrodingers cat says:

    The Scots people weren’t voting for indyref2 in 2017.
    Supporting Scotland’s right to make our own decisions

    Scotland should have a choice about our future at the end of the Brexit process. A democratic mandate for a referendum was delivered at the Holyrood election last year. The Scottish Parliament has now underlined that mandate.


    except indyref2 was in the 2017 manifesto. you can argue till yer blue in the face who was to blame for the failure.

    fact remains, only 38% supported the snp manifesto and voted for them

  186. dakk says:



    He’s been got at.

  187. jfngw says:

    @Andy Ellis

    It would interesting to know exactly why the 2017 election campaign was so lacklustre, were they taken by surprise by the election being called, had they run out of cash to mount a proper campaign after 2014 referendum, and elections in 2015 & 16, were they just complacent.

    I wasn’t a member in 2017 so I have no insight before you come back to me on that. I joined in 2018 as I thought they were on the verge of mounting an independence campaign and WM circumventing the continuity bill, they didn’t.

  188. Davie Oga says:


    Sturgeon’s chief of staff requested to meet with Geoff Aberdein about allegations on the 9th of March.

    Geoff Aberdein met with Sturgeon and her chief of staff to discuss the allegations, in her office on the 29th of March.

    Sturgeon told parliament that she knew nothing about the allegations until a meeting with Salmond at her home on the 2nd of April.

    At first, Scotgov denied the meeting took place on the 29th of March. They now accept the meeting took place, but Sturgeon is saying that she stands by her statement to the parliament.

    She is asking us to believe that she knew nothing about the allegations on the 9th of March, even though her chief of staff requested the meeting with Geoff Aberdein.

    She is also asking us to believe that Geoff Aberdein is lying about the nature of meeting on the 29th of March.

    A jury found Geoff Aberdein’s testimony to be convincing during the trial.

  189. Famous15 says:

    Why is the SG answering for the SQA? Examinations are an exact science and the data has no emotions about “poor Johnny and his future”.

    To cave to the political storm in the face of the data devalues all past achievers of grades.

    It will be interesting to see how the media and politicians react to the results in other parts of the UK.

  190. jfngw says:


    Not by me, I have rarely made any comment about him. There was a number of flurries a while ago though. Most of them are now posting on WGD blog. Those are ones that thought this should be a pro SNP site.

    In fact there is a little cluster of posters trying to force SNP people off this site, they have succeeded with a few as they have stopped posting here.

  191. Tannadice Boy says:

    Have a glass of milk with a stripey straw. And go to bed.
    Alex Salmond needs you. So do I. Keep the faith.

  192. dakk says:


    *Not by me, ”


    By them.

    Where was Cummings left hand in Topher’s cartoon yesterday.

  193. jfngw says:


    Sorry about that, it’s not always easy to distinguish between subtlety and criticism here sometimes.

  194. robertknight says:

    Breeks @ 9:22

    “Scotland CANNOT secede from the UK any more than the UK could “secede” from the EU. The disengagement of Scotland from England will end a Union between constitutional equals because that was the basis upon which the Union was created. It is simply inappropriate to think of Scottish Independence as an act of secession”.

    Agree 100%, however…

    The departure of the Irish Free State from the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland in 1922 has muddied the constitutional waters in the minds of some.

    After the Anglo-Irish Treaty in 1922, the UK Govt. took the decision not to alter the Union Flag or the Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom, and waited until 1927 to change the name of the reformed state to that of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

    This refusal, on grounds of cost (and ego) to reflect the new reality, other than the insertion of the word “Northern” into the title of the state, gave the impression that it was essentially business as usual, despite the fact that the 1800 Act of Union had effectively been torn up.

    Had the Union Flag been changed back to the pre-1801 design, had the Harp of Ireland been removed from the Royal Coat of Arms and had the word “United” been removed from the title of what we have today, then people wouldn’t think that the UK of GB & NI has been around for 1000 years and that it is for Scotland to leave the UK; which will carry on unchanged, with all the symbolism of a state which was formed in 1801 and which ceased to exist in 1922.

    Secession is very much a part of the Yoon and MSM vocabulary and unless and until the SNP/Yes challenge them on it…

    Let’s hear more about the “Kingdom of Scotland” and the “Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland” and less about “Scotland and rUK”.

  195. dakk says:


    Just doesn’t sound right.

  196. Polly says:

    @ jfngw

    I don’t agree about the fine line, not any longer. Pick major battles certainly but contest everything any time you get the chance. Wait for it to come to you you’re nearly always at a disadvantage unless you have a full proof trap waiting. SNP as you say are already disadvantaged but if anything that’s why I’d argue they should carry the fight to the opposition always. Had Corbyn sacked 21 of his shadow cabinet he would at least have tried to gain control of the coups against him and wouldn’t have looked so weak in the media. He wouldn’t have been in a worse position than he ended up. Same with SNP, activists are great but can only do so much. It seems to me they’ve busted a gut with all the work they put in it’s the party always holding back. For all Stuart has baggage as you term it, as I said before were I leader I’d bring him in house, if he’d come, because you’re never going to please everyone and often it’s better to choose who is best for a role and nail your colours to the mast.

    I had hopes for the National, but quite early I felt they didn’t have intention to create a good newspaper. The regular columns by bloggers was a disservice to it. I’ve nothing against the bloggers in question, but it’s an easy way to fill pages and seems more a cheap sop to independence supporters.

    You’re right this isn’t the medium to be able to make detailed and nuanced arguments back and forth exploring the other person’s (and your own) weaknesses and strengths and refining points. And even if it were we’re all just folk with opinions and as for strategy, until the great and good are willing to listen to either of us, we’re not likely to know whether we would be proved right or the reverse. Have a good evening.

  197. jfngw says:


    Last year when he said it was going to be the final fund raiser I thought he had intentions of wrapping it up. It’s been a long slog since the site launched and the continual fact checking must in the end get tedious, especially when there seems to be no progress.

    Anyway I hope he’s OK and if he needs a break takes it, either that or he’s laughing at us for over reacting to his comment.

    In the past he would have just torn me to shreds if he thought I was writing nonsense.

  198. Kangaroo says:

    A good read on the subject matter, Is it the Scottish Question or the English Question.

  199. Polly says:

    @ Cat

    ‘in what sense does the democratic road still exist for them?’

    In the sense that Boris, whatever powers he strips from Holyrood cannot strip our voting rights. Even if he forces a fully unified one country on us, he can’t stop us voting for independence parties. The SNP win most things anyway and though the way they’re going they may well lose a lot of votes too, other independence supporting parties will arise. Granted we could be talking long term if the SNP fail utterly but the desire for independence will only increase with the sense of injustice at everything he would likely try to do to subjugate us – and I’m not talking violence from him either, just riding roughshod over us as he has but even more than at present. And the longer that goes on the more resentment will build.

    The EU also knows our plight now and though I agree with you won’t necessarily ride to our rescue, I do feel they would bring diplomatic pressure to bear if we have our parliament severed at the knees and our laws ripped up when we still vote against what Westminster wants. The lack of real democracy rather than democratic deficit, the curtailing of our laws and rights and means of fighting back against policies imposed against our will – all that will only increase supporters for our cause within and outwith Scotland.

  200. Beaker says:

    Well it’s lively here tonight. Too much sun perhaps (a rarity in Scotland I know).

    I’ll get back onto the SQA business.

    Just for clarity, the SG is ultimately responsible for the SQA. The SG decide on policy and the SQA have to follow it. The head of the SQA reports to the Scottish Parliament via the Education Secretary. SQA are not permitted to make the policy of cancelling exams. They came up with the method and the SG must have signed it off. Westminster have no input.

    What happens in the rest of the UK is of no consequence to pupils who have lost university / college places. Most of these will not be reinstated. The English and Welsh results are next week and the universities and colleges will be bombarded with students wishing to change their courses, and then there is manic period of clearing.

    Every student who is eligible for financial support such as tuition fees must make an application to the appropriate awards body – ie Student Awards Agency Scotland (SAAS). If they do not do this then a university / college can charge them any fees they like – ie same as overseas students. Even though tuition fees are paid by the Scottish Government for (most) Scottish students there must still be an application. If you do not do this the university / college will, in most cases, ask for the fees up front.

    125,000 students have been downgraded. What we do not have is the figure for how many students have lost an offer from a university / college. Some of these will decide to apply for another course where the entry requirements are lower.

    If they decide to make a change, then they must submit the details to SAAS in order that the fees are paid to the correct university or college and for the correct course. That takes time, especially if there are more than normal.

    All this information is in the public domain.

    A number of the universities and colleges have already make efforts to accommodate the students who are needing to change courses. But this could be turned on it’s head after Tuesday when Swinney announces his remedy.

    No point in speculating as to what the remedy will be. I’m just glad I’m not the one who has to deliver it.

  201. dakk says:


    “if he needs a break”

    WoS hasn’t been much more than a chat room for desperadoes and Yoon trolls the last few months till recently.

    Why would he need a break all of a sudden?

  202. jfngw says:


    My worst problem is I’m not that great a writer, I have tendency to be ambiguous, not intentionally it seems perfectly clear to me what I mean, but it’s not always what I think it is and others interpret it completely differently from what I intended. At my age I don’t think that is going to improve unfortunately.

    Corbyn was a mediator, he wanted to be inclusive and accommodate others views, he never had the killer instinct a party leader needs. I haven’t met many politician’s but the ones I have seemed different from ordinary people, as if they have some barrier around them, a bit like when you meet someone high up in a company, distant, no normal conversation, can’t say I enjoyed the experience.

  203. jfngw says:


    I don’t know, I’ve never met him. I don’t know in reality what his personality really is, so it would be insulting to him to suggest I do. We all have a life outside this forum that could be impacting us, he is no different. The take a break if he needed it was the best I thought I could offer without seeming impertinent to him, maybe saying nothing would have been better.

    To be honest I’m start off negatively here now and assume everybody could be a troll, apart from the long term posters I recognise, probably insulted people I shouldn’t have but such is life.

  204. dakk says:

    “probably insulted people I shouldn’t have but such is life.”

    Think that’s half the fun.

  205. jfngw says:


    It’s not clear 125k students are affect, just 125k grades, some of these may be the same student. Is this any different than when they get lower results than expected in a real exam, are the numbers any higher, I don’t know if this year is worse than normal. It’s something you would think the media could report as they are of no practical use if they can’t even deliver facts they could easily obtain.

    I don’t know if the procedure has changed but my children received a docket they handed to the university to reclaim the fees, no docket you had to pay them yourself. Maybe they’ve ‘streamlined’ it from my experience, it was a few years ago now (more than I care to contemplate).

  206. Tannadice Boy says:

    Dakk say

    Jfngw is not right Absolutely. Confession I am related distantly to Nicola Sturgeon. It’s her name. It’s something I am not proud of. Of course I am not Scottish and I have not lived in Scotland all my life. Of course not I am a BritNat Yoon troll. Anybody want to question my family tree. I would just love that. It’s an open goal against Aberden. We are winning…

  207. dakk says:

    “Confession I am related distantly to Nicola Sturgeon”

    Ur ye? Aye.

  208. Tannadice Boy says:


  209. Polly says:

    @ Somerled

    You accuse me of hate and insult? Really? I expressed neither to you.

    I said I thought you lied about being an independence supporter since the previous post you wrote which I responded to had every negative thing possible, every single negative thing possible, in the one post, being said about SNP party, activists and voters and everything negative about Scotland itself and yet good things to say not only of GB but the union AND its 300 year old history. It was all the stuff I’ve seen scattered out over many years and you puked it up all over one fairly small post all by yourself while claiming to have been a member and voter of SNP and a yes voter and supporter less than a year ago. It wasn’t believable.

    But if you’re telling the truth and in the last year only you’ve changed so much you can now say ‘Scotland has achieved many great things in this Union and we are better together’ then I’m sorry but I might really insult you and say you must be unhinged. With brexit due to hit, after 10 years of austerity where thousands of people have died, disabled people like you too, so you should have more empathy and sympathy, who had benefits cut to the bone and sanctions imposed, forced to rely on food banks and charity, some dying weighing less than a child, you can think us better together now? Unhinged, if you’re telling the truth, frankly I’d think better of you had you been lying.

    Stuart may know who you are in real life but he isn’t in a position to vouch for how you vote and your latest post only consolidated my previous belief. The fact you can accuse me of hate and insult, while stating how vicious SNP supporters always were online, but then deny unionists were as bad, in fact saying they were much much better, shows me you have a different standard for the one compared to the other. That shows where your loyalties lie.

  210. Tannadice Boy says:

    It’s her name of course I say no more. I look forward to the day Stu abandoneds anonymity. Otherwise I am a BritNat Yoon troll. Sent here to disrupt the Indy cause. Christ! That’s the job of the SNP. She knows me. I have criticised her many times. Ask her.

  211. schrodingers cat says:

    whatever powers he strips from Holyrood cannot strip our voting rights. Even if he forces a fully unified one country on us, he can’t stop us voting for independence parties.


    thats just it polly, it isnt just business as usual. everything we have done in the last 9 years has had one goal, to convince a majority of people in scotland about independence.

    there are those who shout,
    UDI, dissolve the union, we have 6 mandates for indy, mps walk out of wm, we are sovereign, levy the eu/un etc

    in reality, we only convinced 45% in dec 2019. after all the shit we have been through 40fukcin5%.

    whether due to the snp or boris, (i care not, let historians argue about this) we are now 54%

    we aint been here before. it is imperative this support is translated in to a public vote, no matter how, plebiscite, indyref2 etc.

    why? because at that point, all of the above becomes true.

    if Rob peffers were here he would claim “the people of scotland are sovereign” declare udi. and he would be right

    breeks would argue we should canvas the eu/un. and he would be right.

    bdtt would argue for mps to walk out of wm. and he would be right.

    peat worrier would argue about bringing court cases against wm in all courts. and he would be right

    craig murray would call to dissolve the union. and he would be right.

    I dare say politics will continue with machinations on all sides. but DONT dismiss this as just another vote. a 50%+
    vote in support for indy will unite all threads of the movement.

    that will include unionists. see sensible dave, he refuses to even answer a question about this senario. he knows, not all unionists are knuckle draggers. many are democrats

    this is it polly. many are tired, worn out. some even passed away. be we are finally here.

    carpe idem

  212. schrodingers cat says:

    Tannadice Boy says:
    Confession I am related distantly to Nicola Sturgeon.

    i thocht ye were a coggie fae dunday 🙂

  213. Corrado Mella says:

    I’m sorry Rev, but who wrote that shyte?

    No, really: who?

    Why do we bother to comment?


  214. schrodingers cat says:

    Corrado Mella says:
    I’m sorry Rev, but who wrote that shyte?
    No, really: who?
    a north brit labour think tank, fabians

  215. Polly says:

    @ jfngw

    ‘others interpret it completely differently from what I intended’

    🙂 Happens to all of us at times even when we think we’re being clear.

    Yes politicians often have and should have a killer instinct (as do a few other professions) and know when to use that to attack the throat. Corbyn seemed a bit of a waffler to me, call it negotiator or consensus driven if you like. Obama seemed the same, and he didn’t achieve much either. Sturgeon also touted as consensus lover, only not it seems in her own parliamentary party, and called a nippy sweety yet doesn’t use that when most needed. She’s a conundrum at times.

  216. Polly says:

    @ Cat

    Maybe, though I’m not convinced yet. But even if we don’t we’ll still be here after, tired, worn out, yes (and you know whose fault I think that) but we will regroup and others will join, even after the worst that might befall. And if the worst befalls us it will galvanise us and more people to join us. I do believe it is unstoppable now, unless they offer full federalism, that’s the only thing I feel might scupper us. I remember SNP accepting Smith commission, standing there smiling as though they’d won something. Better to have not played along and boycotted everything to do with it. Being more suspicious of them now I wouldn’t trust them to agree to federalism, even watered down federalism and try to make it look a success.

  217. twathater says:

    @ SC I have already agreed with your proposals re a early pleb election

    But I wrote this last night for you to tell us how you are going to get NS to comply with your wishes and idea , or are you just doing your PPB for the SNP

    twathater says:
    9 August, 2020 at 2:58 am

    Re NS interview in the National I note once again “The SNP leader also said Yessers could be “safely assured” there will be an explicit commitment to a second referendum in the SNP’s 2021 Holyrood manifesto ” with not even a mention or HINT of when this supposed ref would take place

    So there you have it more VAGUE promises and more can kicking just to get another 5 years of power, salary,increased pension whilst ALL the while bozo’s circus freaks devise even more ways to pillage Scotland’s rich resources and OUR citizens SUFFER more indignities and impoverishment but don’t worry queen Nicola has 5 more years in power to enhance her bankbook and CV

    So tell us now SC how your GRAND PLAN is going to be executed NS has just given you and us a great FU

  218. Breastplate says:

    December 2019 GE was not a plebiscite for Indy.
    I don’t think it’s helpful to suggest everyone who voted for the SNP supports independence and everyone who voted for Lib Lab and Cons supports the Union when it is demonstrably untrue.

    But you are quite right about people wanting to travel different paths to arrive at independence.
    All those people who support independence will all vote yes in a referendum, no matter what party they vote for otherwise.

    So if the SNP can bring all the Sturgeonistas, Independistas, SNP loyalists and the “malcontents” (as Bungo likes to say) together, why don’t they?

    My viewpoint of what you, me and others think should happen and what will happen are different.
    I think the SNP will break their promises to have an Indyref2 because (insert excuse here)
    They will also fail to use the HE 2021 as a plebiscite as you would like because (insert excuse here)
    The SNP will run next year’s campaign on having an Indyref2 in their next term of government but this time they will promise not to break their manifesto commitments to Indyref2 unless something crops up to stop it like (insert excuse here).

  219. twathater says:

    To SC ,jfngw , and other SNP members , genuine question , Can you tell me what NS and the hierarchy of the SNP have done to CONVINCE the voters in Scotland that independence for Scotland is the best way forward ,can you give links to facts for voters
    Can you show docs from the SNP that highlights the revenue gained from the oil industry and the total sent to WM and the amount of the percentage returned to the SG

    Can you show docs from the SNP that highlights the TAX revenue accrued in Scotland and the amount the SG gets back

    Can you show the GERS figures that are guestimates from WM and are accepted by the SG and we were promised a Scottish GERS this year highlighting the anomalies
    I could go on with fiscal examples of tumbleweed
    The only figures that are produced to show Scotland’s rich resources are done by many independence supporting bloggers and tweeters
    If voters are to be convinced that Scotland would be better off being independent then surely an independence driven party would supply information and documentation to support and CONVINCE voters that it is the right way to go
    We anoraks on here know it is right in our hearts and fiscally but the people who are NOT engaged and have lives to live NEED CONVINCING and shown

  220. Kangaroo says:

    Mags @ 12:59pm 9Aug

    Thanks for that very informative reference, it chimes with other sources.

    So here’s my take, (very short version) based on the evidence I have

    1. The US Military via the NSA which has the ability to use spying technology via mobile phones, computers and TVs got hold of the records of conversations between various Heads of State and their underlings. These files disclosed that they were being blackmailed and were complicit in various criminal acts including money laudering, drug and gun running, human trafficking (and worse). Think Epstein. Think Saville etc.
    2. Armed with this knoweldge Trump did a Grand Tour of Heads of State, Saudia, Israel, Vatican, Korea, Japan, China, the EU and Nato and laid bare the evidence.
    You may recall the UK visit where he walked in front of the quine during the inspection of the guard. Andy was a very naughty boy and ended up being the “Honey Pot” to entrap others. Guislaine Maxwell will testify to this as they also unlocked her encrypted Blackberry.
    3. Lizzie has been ousted as an imposter with no legal entitlement to the Crown. Hence she has been arrested and Buck Palace has been boarded up whilst they investigate the various criminal actions done under her watch.
    4. Trump went into lockdown on Friday aboard Airforce 1 to avoid being assassinated.
    5.There will be a lot of arrests in the next few weeks. 150 National Guards have been sent to Guantanamo, as a reception party I would think.
    6. The Trials will start soon and the high heid yins will be done for Treason and executed just like McCain and GHW Bush, the ramifications will spill over to every Country on the planet
    7. So on to the Article you have highlighted, this refers only to English Sovereignty. The giving of Royal Assent to transferring Lizzies Sovereignty to Parliament under s38 of the European Union (Withdrawal Act) 2020 was an acknowlegment by Lizzie that “The Game was Up”. At the same time Westminster is trying to assert itself illegally as the Sovereign. Note you cannot give someone that which you do not legally own.

    No doubt most of you will think this is bollocks, just as they did when i tried to post these revelations, with evidence, on this very site some years ago now.

    “The truth will set us free.”

  221. NotKangaroo says:

    Here’s my two cents. Wings is one of the best researched political blogs in the Scottish debate. I don’t always agree with its conclusions but I usually see its logic anyway.

    We’ve all been through the angry phase and eventually realised that it works better served cold. I think Wings is at the point where it could now achieve more by moderating its style and syntax from anti-everything undergraduate to a reasonably put, devastatingly argued Thunderer.

  222. Walter Jones says:

    As a casual poster, I can’t help noticing that Wings has been reduced to about a dozen core posters.

    With guys like jfngw and the Cat leading the charge.

    They post the same opinion over and over and over again. This of course becomes very very borrrrrrrrrrrring.

    Wings is screaming out for new blood, new opinions, new ideas.

    I don’t know if the Rev has looked at a new advertising campaign to attract new posters.

    But the present situation is so flat and uninteresting that I just fly past the usual shite posted by the usual suspects.

    So hopefully the Rev can get advice from some advertising companies and get the profile of Wings lifted to a height that it deserves,

    But to be hijacked by a few Sturgeon fanatics isn’t doing your site any favours at all Rev.

  223. defo says:


    Ach well, at least we’ll no need to go over the ‘queen’ ? this time.

  224. Breeks says:

    twathater says:
    9 August, 2020 at 2:58 am

    So there you have it more VAGUE promises and more can kicking just to get another 5 years of power, salary,increased pension whilst ALL the while bozo’s circus freaks devise even more ways to pillage Scotland’s rich resources and OUR citizens SUFFER more indignities and impoverishment but don’t worry queen Nicola has 5 more years in power to enhance her bankbook and CV…

    I’d have to go and crank up a defunct tablet with a broken screen to find the link I bookmarked, but way back, before Devolution, there were unsung heroes in the SNP who were lobbying the Council of Europe with specific regard to Scotland’s poor representation, and it was this pressure coming through the Council of Europe which obliged the Westminster Government to offer Scotland a degree of autonomy and devolved government. It certainly wasn’t the Labour Party who blessed Scotland with Devolution, although they took all the credit for it, it was background pressure coming from the Council of Europe, after agitation by SNP members. I wish I could find the link…

    It drives me mad that Scotland could have spent the last five years lobbying hard the same Council of Europe, putting forward the Constitutional arguments as permanent immovable obstacles to Brexit which Westminster could neither remove or overcome.

    For the last five years, knowing that Brexit “looked” inevitable, we could have been pleading our case with the Council of Europe who were in a position to apply pressure on the UK government while the UK Government was still under the EU Umbrella and bound by European legislation.

    The safety of that EU Umbrella expires at the end of December. We have squandered over five years doing nothing, and now have less than five months to do “something”. Register our protest. Challenge the legality of Brexit. Dispute UK Sovereignty. Challenge our unconstitutional colonial subjugation. Demand Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty is respected… And yet, even with so little time left, we are still doing nothing, and allowing Scotland to be carried on the current determined by Westminster.

    I cannot see this inaction as anything else but a criminal dereliction of responsibility by Scotland’s supine “Government”. They have NOT been taking care of business and looking after Scotland’s interests.

    Never mind the ridiculous Circus of distractions of Concerning GRA, Hate Crimes, Education, the whole Wokist agenda and the craven conspiracy to destroy Alex Salmond, – the SNP has simply abandoned the defence of Scotland’s interests and Constitution, and has stupidly set dangerous precedents which Scotland will now have to ‘un-set’. They have sat idle as powerless passengers these past five years, hostage to the will of Westminster, and shirked every responsibility they ever had to protect Scotland.

    Given the protection we have from the EU Transition Agreement expires in December, where is there any promise, any protection, any defence, for anything, in proposals for a referendum to appear in the manifesto for 2021 elections?

    All we have coming from Nicola Sturgeon is advance warning that December will come and go, deregulation will be forced upon Scottish Industry, our NHS will come under sustained assault as a bargaining chip for an American Trade Deal, and the SNP has no plans to do anything about it until the middle of 2021 when they’ll come fishing for another mandate.

    Do ANY of you, whatever you think of Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP, honestly think that’s even remotely good enough? Because I do not.

  225. Rick H Johnston says:

    If you’re frustrated at what you see as lack of action/progress on independence, you need to realise that nobody is holding you back.
    Anybody can mount a legal case or get campaign leaflets printed.
    Independence will finally be won as much by the Sma Folk as the MP’s or the SG.
    Expecting either the UK or Nicola Sturgeon to reveal their plans in advance is unrealistic.
    The Wee Blue Book is an example of what we can do without relying on elected politicians.

  226. Effijy says:

    Labour are borrowing from the joke sign that appears in many
    Local shops that advise of extending free credit any 80 year old
    who can be accompanied by both parents.

    Labour unionist Ian Murray today demanding confidence from the
    Scottish Government about kids returning to school.

    So he seems to have more confidence in his blue Tory brothers returning
    Kids to English schools after their worlds worst handling of the virus?

    Why are the BBC broadcasting his comments as his party represents the
    Smallest number of Scottish seats at Westminster and the 3rd smallest party
    at Holyrood?

    The answer is the BBC overdrive to disseminate any growing confidence in Scotland’s
    Ability to govern Scotland.

    If you believed the BBC you would be looking to exchange your home with one in war torn Syria.

    You need to go back to the 1960’s to find a Labour government who actually did anything positive
    For the country.

    Murray’s party is as dead as his union.

  227. Ottomanboi says:

    Covid-19 is a success story, for China, emerging barely scratched from ‘the crisis’, for the rich, richer than ever, the globalist influencers, more influential than ever and of course those arms of totalitarian capitalism the Microsofts, Googles, Facebooks, Amazons, Twitters, Zooms, Tik Toks (the latter both Chinese) and the like.
    Democracy is down the pan and weak countries are much weaker, many on the verge of implosion.
    Scotland? Who knows where the Sturgeonite gradualist faction will lead our struggling, Covid freaked out, aspirant sovereign nation, further away from the goal or the tendency that finally crashes the toleration barrier.
    Có aig a tha fios? Có nach eil coma?
    Who knows? Who cares?

  228. Colin Alexander says:

    Devolution is BRITISH Govt with a Saltire.

    Imelda and Ferdinand Murrell suppressing and blocking independence.

    Police and courts under the control of Imelda and Ferdinand Murrell. Richly rewarded with power for running a puppet govt under their British masters in London.

  229. Colin Alexander says:

    The media should be asking Imelda Murrell how many pairs of shoes she owns.

  230. Walter Jones says:

    Regarding those asylum seekers crossing the english channel to set up homes in England.

    Why would you leave France for England in the first place?

    Once the penny drops that they have landed in the most racist Nation in Europe, they won’t be long in jumping into their boats and heading back to France.

  231. Bob Mack says:

    The topic of a New Treaty of Union has been bandied around the House of Lords for the last two years. It was originally brought in by the former Clerk of the House. If it is now surfacing from politicians and their mouthpieces in the media, you can bet they have refined it to make it plausible.

    Everybody and their dug knows they are looking for ways to neutralise Independence. This is one that is right up there on the list.

    Sadly the Independence movement seems to have two camps just now. Those who believe Nicola will deliver and those who feel that she is a fraud. I am in the latter group.

    I become unsure if we shall ever have a choice of Independence again, and get I know if is my right to choose by law and history. What a shambles.

  232. Davie Oga says:

    The increased channel crossings are likely
    related to the UK ending Dublin III family
    reunification clause on the 31st of December. Its not a France/UK choice of what’s better. Many asylum seekers will be permanently separated from their families by a no deal brexit.

  233. Dorothy Devine says:

    The negativity of this site is choking it to death.

    As for the foolish comment of ‘Sturgeonista’s ‘ being the ones responsible – it sure as shit doesn’t look that way to me.

    The British Government has ignored Scotland at best, worked against her at worst.

    We find ourselves lied to about being out of the EU if we dared vote for Independence.

    We find ourselves lied to in the Brexit referendum.

    We find ourselves lumped together and lied to about Covid deaths
    with only UK numbers being given in any ‘news’ programme. Now we find the caravans and motor homes heading our way from south of the border bringing it with them , not to mention Johnson about to holiday here with his usual carelessness. It would be great if our country could close her borders properly but it appears we neither have the means nor the will.

    I am interested in the quarantining of those from certain countries and wonder how many countries are actually discouraging visitors from these ‘Sceptred Isles’.

    We have always said that Independence is not just about the SNP but logically we need the SNP as the political wing. It is under stress from the foolish and the infiltrators which was to be expected considering past history.

    Right now marches cannot take place which I am sure pleases Westminster but words of positivity , encouragement and information can be passed on – either on blog sites or at bus stops .

    One thing for sure we cannot rely on the media for even vaguely truthful reporting. Every time I visit a newspaper site it informs me that they are an endangered species and I should subscribe to keep them floating on the sewage they have created – I decline.

  234. What Dorothy Devine says.
    This morning Larry Flannagan, who is so Left Wing Militant that evn the Red Tories threw him out, was shoe horned in to a piece on BBC Breakfast from Salford Quay on Johnson declaring that opening schools in September trumps all else, prattling on about regular test for teachers when Scotland opens schools tomorrow.
    He was implying that all was not ready for our schools to reopen. No mention of Scotland’s Covid stats. No deaths in 19 days…outbreak well under control. Hundreds dying in England every week…don’t mention the Scots…Flannagan did but I think he got away with it..
    We are living in a conquered English colony.
    That English citizens can discuss and decide Scotland’s fate is ridiculous and extreme colonial fascism.
    WE are heading towards Brexit like someone caught short on the toilet seat and suddenly discovering they have no toilet paper.
    Off now.

  235. Davie Oga says:

    At the same as Sturgeon is telling The National there will be an Indyref commitment in the manifesto, The Sunday Times is reporting that Johnson will not agree to a referendum “under any circumstances”.

    If Sturgeon is going to persist with her “gold standard”, more of the same, can kicking, then Independence will not happen.

    If she is not unwilling or unable to change tack, she must be removed from office.

  236. Breeks says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:
    10 August, 2020 at 8:35 am
    Is this it, Breeks?

    It’s not the site as I remember it, but it’s the right subject matter. Cheers Brian. 😉

  237. jfngw says:


    You don’t CONVINCE people to support independence any more than you convince an alcoholic to go to rehab, it’s a leap they need to make themselves. There is no magic formula, unfortunately some people vote because they like the leader and believe their phoney sincerity, how else can you explain Tony Blair still winning an election after Iraq.

    Try the SNP web site if you want to know their policies, I haven’t read it as I’m not the acolyte you believe. I’m a member but rarely attend any constituency meetings, I really don’t have any of the attributes they were looking for except stuffing leaflets through doors and I’m not healthy enough for that now.

    All the other stuff you want isn’t actually available to the Scottish government directly, it is all filtered through the Westminster treasury. You are just going to replace one set of guestimates with another, you’ll then have a he said, she said conflict and a set of Kevin Hague graphs proving how the Scottish estimate is wrong.

    Your misconception is you believe because I have stayed a member I am content how things have transpired, you are wrong but I have decided to give them a bit longer and there isn’t any viable alternative at this minute. I know it sounds like who else are you going to vote for, but in reality who else am I going to vote for (and don’t say RISE, please).

  238. Breastplate says:

    Rick H Johnston,
    You said,
    “Expecting either the UK or Nicola Sturgeon to reveal their plans in advance is unrealistic.”

    Let’s for argument sake the SNP have a plan, with all the resources that the British Government have to hand, what makes you think they could possibly stop their secret plan becoming known to their political enemies?

    At least, you have admitted that you see no evidence of a plan, however you believe it must be secret but I would suggest to you the use of Occam’s razor and that the simple explanation is that there is no plan, fiendish or otherwise.

    A plan would suggest some kind of strategy but Nicola will simply ask Boris if we can have a referendum. That’s it, she is on record, adamant that this is the way forward for Scotland. No fiendish plan or Machiavellian machinations.

    Rick, would you agree that In the absence of a secret plan that the one we have in front of us, may be insufficient to win our independence?

  239. Breeks says:

    Dorothy Devine says:
    10 August, 2020 at 9:28 am
    The negativity of this site is choking it to death.

    The clock is ticking on the Transition Agreement Dorothy, and it’s business as usual at Bute House, no urgency or sense of emergency, just waffle about next years itinerary. All we’ve got to look forward to this Hogmanay is a stale re-run of last year’s dismal capitulation of Jan 31st, and the new year will auger in deregulation on steroids to make sure Scotland has a mountain to climb if it ever wants to meet convergence criteria to rejoin Europe.

    I see nothing, NOTHING to feel positive about. The timidly our “leadership” turns my stomach. Independence is dead in the water under their stewardship and frankly even their impeachment would feel like progress.

  240. Bailey says:

    Breeks at 10:13 am

    Here is an excerpt from Devolution and the Labour Myth by the late James Wilkie:

    “Members of Scotland-UN like John McGill (its founder and secretary), Pat Lang, Shanks Kerr, John Law, David Young, Willie MacRae and others were among the most vociferous members of the Campaign for a Scottish Parliament, and it was Scotland-UN that in 1979 first proposed the creation of a Scottish Constitution.”

    “The only member of the Labour Party who actively cooperated in the project was Dennis Canavan, while others like John Smith and Donald Dewar dropped the whole issue of devolution after Thatcher’s “repeal” of the Scotland Act”

    In those days we obviously had people actively working behind the scenes. I think the SNP is now “what you see is what you get”. The “plan” is just to ask for a Section 30 Order and, when it is refused, hope that a hard brexit galvanizes fence sitters into action. This is high risk as a lot of people don’t realise that legislative powers are being stripped from Holyrood and will just batten down the hatches if they are made redundant.

    The Treaty is going to have to be sounded in the ICJ but the SNP obviously aren’t going to do it.

  241. Dorothy Devine says:

    Breeks , the clock has been ticking for 300 years – urgency required.

    I too want some action from the SNP but I recognise that at this point in time it is a tad tricky – 70,000 coffins make it so and as many squirrels have sprung up too.

    But I really don’t need to be depressed by negativity in a quarter once so positive in outlook and so informative , with ideas pinging around and new leads to follow.

  242. jfngw says:

    @Dorothy Devine

    You are correct, there are too many that believe ‘with one leap they were free’ scenario. It’s going to be a slog.

    There is the democratic route that is taking time, that’s not the SNP’s fault they obtained a referendum in 2014, it is Scotland’s electorate that didn’t accept the opportunity at the time. WM were always going to make another one difficult to obtain, probably NS worst mistake is believing they would accept a mandate from Scotland.

    The other is the Ireland route, but does anyone in Scotland want to go down that route?

  243. Breeks says:

    jfngw says:
    10 August, 2020 at 10:32 am

    …The other is the Ireland route, but does anyone in Scotland want to go down that route?

    You mean the Irish route of protecting their European Citizenship by adopting a resolute backstop based upon an International Treaty being properly recognised and respected by the International Community?

    Where was Scotland’s Constitutional Backstop based upon an International Treaty being flouted by the reckless colonialism of Westminster forcing anti-democratic subjugation upon Scotland where the forcing of one Nation’s will upon another is contrary to International Law?

    How can Scotland ever persuade the International Community to respect Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty when our own farce of a “Scottish Government” doesn’t even recognise it’s existence and panders to the colonial aspirations of Westminster?

  244. Breastplate says:

    I don’t really want to get dragged into another CoV2 conversation as there is a risk factor with pretty much everything.
    Do you believe being a “tad tricky” is enough to suspend democracy?

    I’m not having a go at you as I have agreed with much of what you’ve said on this site but I’m not sure I can understand your thought process regarding having an independence referendum.

    I would also suggest that there are legitimate reasons to be negative about the progress of independence. I would love to be more upbeat about the realistic chances of achieving our independence but being realistic prevents that at the moment.

  245. Kangaroo says:

    Brian Doonthetoon @8:35

    That is the correct page.
    It used to be on website called aTrueIndependentScotland but the content was transferred to electricScotland after 2014 I believe.

    Yes it was the Council of Europe that forced Westminsters hand to create a Scottish Parliament. Nothing whatever to do with the Liebor Party or Dewar for that matter. Dewar signed off on the transfer of Scottish maritime waters to engerland remember, he was a ("Tractor" - Ed) to his people.

  246. Bob Mack says:

    Inaction is just as dangerous as hasty action. The SNP and those who back their strategy are waiting for that time when ALL the conditions will be perfect. The perfect alignment of circumstances before finally taking steps.

    This is as wrong as it is foolish. Inaction allows the opponent to plan strategy and take initiatives before you

    That’s why we see and hear Boris and the Unionists refer more to referendums than we do here in Scotland. He is preparing his ground for conflict.

    Nicola meanwhile is distracted by daily Covid briefings,whilst she has a perfectly capable Health Minister who could do that job just as well. Is Boris? No.
    He is getting on with the job of keeping the UK jntact.

    There never will be perfect circumstances. One error could turn popularity today into tomorrow’s unpopularity.

    We are in a knife edge with our independence and we must strike whilst things are in our favour.

  247. Walter Jones says:

    David Oga 9.27am

    Re,, Asylum seekers,,,

    The english are getting excited about their new idea of how to combat the invasion of asylum seekers coming over the channel from France.

    They are going to unleash their english navy on them.

    These asylum seekers include pregnant women and disabled adults with wheelchairs.

    The english navy are up for this battle, because this is the kind of enemy they like to be up against. Where the enemy have no weapons and can’t fight back.

    Go engerland!!!

    And many of these Asylum seekers are from Yemen, where they have been blown out of their homeland buy missiles made in,,,, England.

    These missiles were then sold to Saudi Arabia, who went on to use them to wipe the nation of Yemen off the face of the earth.

    Which created an Exodus of refugees.

  248. dandydons1903 says:

    It really is quite simple if independence is to happen we first need rid of Sturgeon and her sjw clique, she has had 4 years to make it happen and here we still are. You need to fight fire with fire with the brit bastards it is the only language they understand. Being a doormat gets you nowhere.

  249. Walter Jones says:

    Couple of new slogans for the SNP to use during the 2021 Holyrood election campaign:

    “Just one more push”.


    “One forward, Two back”.

  250. Walter Jones says:

    dandydons1903 11.21am

    Been saying for years,,, Scots e too nice.

    We need to angry.

    But Sturgeon and her supporters are powderpuff pushovers.

    The english government are playing with them.

  251. Beaker says:

    Spartacus time…

    I’m Nicola Sturgeon and so is my (ex) wife!

    too much coffee, sorry…

  252. dandydons1903 says:

    Walter Jones 11.32am

    Yes far too nice and subservient and that gets you nowhere against the colonialists and union jock flunkies.

  253. Bob Mack says:

    The prime rule of any business.

    Every organisation requires a well stated and prime purpose.

    We know that there is currently a deficit in that regard because all talk of referendums and independence is coming from the other side. I really want to know if the SNP have come to believe that never talking about Independence is truly the way to win a referendum?

  254. Republicofscotland says:

    George Kerevan calling for Sturgeon to lead a AUOB march when its safe to do so. Sturgeon said recently that she wants independence and its in the 2021 SNP manifesto.

    I agree Sturgeon should put up or shut up and lead a AUOB march.

    Meanwhile Westminster robs Scotland of £1.8 billion pounds via the Barnett Formula.

  255. jfngw says:


    I’ve read a lot of your post regarding the Scottish constitutional position, I don’t have the knowledge or the time to investigate this (I’m not using the internet as that is notoriously unreliable for factual accuracy, you need access to all the original material). The other problem is I’m not sure I would fully understand it anyway if it drops into ancient legalise or even latin.

    I can only say the SNP legal advisors must, I assume, tell them it won’t work, why else would they ignore it if it did. Unless you believe the SNP don’t really want independence, and to be honest this is not the most opportune moment with most country’s going to have financial difficulties trying to cope with this virus.

    And you know fine I wasn’t referring to NI, we didn’t have an international treaty assuring our continued access to the EU, the treaty of union is silent on that matter. We did have the will of Scotland after the EU vote but that was mishandled and the SNP need to take ownership of that. Again the people of Scotland could have sent the message to WM in 2017, they didn’t, they sent more unionist instead (more in the sense of increased not as a majority). That’s two chances (2014 & 2017 there has been an opportunity to reject Westminster, on both occasions we’ve bottled it).

  256. Almond Chutney says:

    I honestly feel tired of the same argument being a roundabout of finger pointing and pessimistic views of cultural superiority.

    On another note, I discovered an interesting article on an economical union of CANZUK being a real possibility upon departure of the EU. Small quarrels between home nations seem irrelevant to the bigger picture when there are threats to freedom and democracy in countries such as China, where protection of such rights should proceed to those especially in places like Hong Kong. Worrying about what England/Scotland may or may not agree on is smallfry in comparison.

  257. Big Jock says:

    Hey hey. Don’t doubt Sturgeon’s belief in independence. So she keeps telling the media.

    Nicola, it’s not your beliefs we are doubting. It’s the practice of your faith we don’t trust. You talk the talk , but never walk the walk.

    She seriously thinks just putting indy ref 2 in a manifesto , like a box ticking exercise will pacify us. We are not just dumb voters or followers Nicola. Having indy ref 2 in your leaflet means hee haw. We have seen what you have done with the other promises and mandates. You handed the destiny of Scotland to Boris on a plate.

    So far you have failed in the job we elected you to do. To at least deliver a choice for Scotland!

    We are indeed prisoners, but the gate keeper is not Boris, it’s Nicola!

  258. schrodingers cat says:

    jfngw says:
    @Dorothy Devine

    You are correct, there are too many that believe ‘with one leap they were free’ scenario. It’s going to be a slog.


    one more leap to gain a majority. if bojo says no, some will go down the irish route, and they will ridicule those who continue to suggest political or leagal routes to independence.

    dont underestimate the enormity of the position we now face. this is it.
    carpe idem

  259. Big Jock says:

    I doubt Nicola will do anything different with another majority.

    When she told the BBC that she was going to concentrate on the economy following Covid. That was the truth! She has no intention of doing anything with another mandate. I simply no longer believe her.

    If she stays for another 5 years , then forget independence. We need the leader of the SNP to take us on the march to independence. We simply cannot do this without the leader of Scotland being with us.

    So until we get rid of Sturgeon, forget it!

  260. Alec Lomax says:

    Where’s the replacement for Nicola ?

  261. Ottomanboi says:

    Republicofscotland…11:48 am
    [George Kerevan calling for Sturgeon to lead a AUOB march when it’s safe to do so…]
    Scottish nationalism appears to have become a concept involving belt & braces insurance, strict health & safety rules and lets not frighten the delicate sensibilities of the punters.
    Something of a very unfunny joke. Many might wonder what sort of game nationalist leaders are playing. To win? Not from this perspective.

  262. Bob Mack says:


    You are astute enough to know the end ,one way or another, will be within the next six months. I cannot think that anyone could refute that.

    Given that we have very limited options, when we should have had more.

  263. Liz says:

    I see the FM has folded over the exam results.
    I thought she would.
    She hates the MSM criticising her.
    On the other hand, she doesn’t give a toss what the members think.

    BTW read this.

  264. Breeks says:

    jfngw says:
    10 August, 2020 at 11:52 am

    ….I can only say the SNP legal advisors must, I assume, tell them it won’t work, why else would they ignore it if it did…

    But I believe Joanna Cherry’s case which forced the UK Prime Minister to un-prorogue Westminster is definitive proof that the UK Prime Minister is NOT sovereign, because a judgement delivered in a Scottish overruled Boris Johnson’s desire to prorogue Parliament. IF Johnson and the Palace of Westminster were indeed sovereign, then no power could have overruled their decision.

    Do the arithmetic. Westminster was compelled to reverse it’s decision when ordered to by a Scottish Court, so it follows Westminster is NOT sovereign over Scotland or Scots Law, and CANNOT overrule the will of the people (or law court serving the people) who properly are sovereign.

    I repeat an old question I asked years ago. Let us assume that Scotland’s popular sovereignty is ‘red’ sovereignty because it’s authority comes from the flesh and blood of the Scottish people. Let us also assume Westminster’s sovereignty is ‘white’ sovereignty becomes from the ethereal realm of an English Monarch being appointed by God.

    So what sovereignty is Holyrood using? Is it red sovereignty carrying the authority of the Scottish people, white sovereignty which takes it’s authority from Westminster, or is it pink sovereignty to reflect the paradox of two incompatible and distinct absolute conditions somehow becoming merged into one, or is Holyrood’s sovereign authority a raspberry ripple sovereignty, with some powers answerable to Scotland and some powers answerable to Westminster. So what “is” Holyrood? And that question has to have an answer.

    From the actions of the SNP these past 5 years, there seems little doubt that the SNP at Holyrood consider themselves bound by the colonial legislation of the Scotland Act and the white sovereignty of Westminster. They manifestly don’t not consider themselves bound in any way by the red sovereignty of Scotland’s Constitution.

    That is the crux of the matter. White sovereignty has Westminster as it’s sovereign master. Scotland’s strength and sovereign constitution is undiluted red sovereignty which comes from the Scottish people and cannot be overruled by the white sovereignty of Westminster.

    When Boris Johnson was compelled to un-prorogue Westminster, understand and be in no doubt, it was neither pink nor raspberry ripple sovereignty at work, it was the blood red sovereignty of Scotland out ranking and subjugating the ‘lesser’ white sovereignty of Westminster.

    Scotland Act? White sovereignty.
    Sewel Convention? White sovereignty.
    Section 30 Agreement? White sovereignty.
    Brexit? White sovereignty writ large.
    Holyrood? A dismal and disappointing white sovereignty which capitulates to the superiority of Westminster.

    Scotland’s emphatic and democratic rejection of Brexit? Red Sovereignty direct from the sovereign people which cannot be overruled by white.

    If Holyrood will not touch Scotland’s red sovereignty, then it’s a white instrument of Westminster’s colonial rule, and Scotland needs a different parliament which respects red sovereignty and nothing but the red sovereignty of the Scottish people.

  265. schrodingers cat says:

    Bob Mack says:
    You are astute enough to know the end ,one way or another, will be within the next six months.

    an end is imminent, perhaps not the end

  266. Bob Mack says:

    Today I’m watching Nicola stating her backdown on education is not because she is afraid of a backlash from angry parents at the ballot box. Even though she said on Friday that the process was fair.

    If she can worry about angry parents why can’t she worry about angry Indy supporters?

    Do we count these days?

  267. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “moderating its style and syntax from anti-everything undergraduate”

    I have not the slightest clue how you could characterise the article above in such a manner.

  268. MaggieC says:


    Here’s the archive link to George Keveran’s column in the National for anyone else who hasn’t read it yet ,

    It’s an interesting column about the Snp as a party and as George said Nicola needs to be leading an AUOB March when the conditions are right to be holding the marches again and the other interesting point is regarding the NEC and he’s another one calling for Angus McLeod to resign his position as National Secretary after the stooshie the NEC caused by changing the rules to stop Joanna Cherry standing for Holyrood .

    My opinion is that we need the likes of Joanna Cherry , Phillipa Whiteford and strong Snp members in Holyrood as this is where our fight for Indy lies and not in Westminster now that Boris has his 80 seat majority and why should they stay down there to be ridiculed by the tories week in and week out and I’m including that one Labour member Ian Murray who in my opinion should just cross the floor to join the tory party .

    Hopefully if we are able to contain the coronavirus in Scotland we can get back out campaigning as soon as possible and get that final push over the hill to Independence and hold our own ADVISORY referendum in Scotland just the same as England had their Brexit referendum , people in Scotland need to accept Brexit is happening now and nothing can stop it now .

    And on a final note everyone should be wearing a Yes badge and start that conversation about the benefits of Independence with other people whether in a queue at the shops or sitting having a coffee .

  269. Oneliner says:


    I would never besmirch the teaching profession, but it is not unknown for members of staff in poorly performing schools to be creative. Who would want a visit from Her Majesty’s Expectorate?

    Perhaps, just perhaps, the SQA were aware of such ‘creativity’ when producing their magic formula. Indeed, going on teachers’ recommendations, the current cohort would be way more successful than any previous years’.

    This is a question I would put not to John Swinney, not to Nicola Sturgeon, but to Fiona Robertson, CEO of the SQA. But, to quote Gordon Brewer, ‘Hang On’.

    She’s a civil servant and beyond reproach (MSM attention) – perhaps she benefits from the Peter Principle which continues to be used to good effect with Leslie Evans.

  270. Stoker says:

    Rev, sorry but you lost me at the word ‘Labour’. 😉 🙂

  271. Lochside says:

    jfngw says: in response to Breeks:

    ‘The other problem is I’m not sure I would fully understand it anyway if it drops into ancient legalise or even latin.

    I can only say the SNP legal advisors must, I assume, tell them it won’t work, why else would they ignore it if it did. Unless you believe the SNP don’t really want independence, and to be honest this is not the most opportune moment with most country’s going to have financial difficulties trying to cope with this virus.’

    If you can’t be bothered finding out the definition of ‘Sovereignty’, specifically in the international context of the flawed and broken Treaty and Act of Union , and truly believe that a country and nation of 1000 years unbroken history has to rely on timeserving cowards like the SNP to tell or not tell us whether we are sovereign or not, particularly when their political nous is nonexistent. then why bother commenting?

  272. Liz g says:

    Completely off topic but..

    I haven’t seen anything about how the recovery from those awful fires is going.
    Can you tell us a bit of how things are now?

    I think of all those affected often and send them my very best xxx

  273. jfngw says:


    Because I wanted him to expand on why he thought his position was correct. I wanted him to document why he thought he was correct and Scotland’s lawyers are wrong. Is it not valid to ask those making claims to justify them, seems more like a religion than a constitution you are defining.

  274. Dan says:

    @Bob Mack at 11.16am

    Re. Missiles and Yemen.

    IIRC Raytheon relatively recently got a bung from the Scottish Government Administration to help their multi million dollar company diversify out of making weaponary.

    I understand Babcock are still knocking out missile shiz in Rosyth for Anglo / American interests.

  275. Lochside says:

    ‘jfngw ‘says:’I wanted him to document why he thought he was correct and Scotland’s lawyers are wrong. Is it not valid to ask those making claims to justify them, seems more like a religion than a constitution you are defining’

    ‘Scotland’s lawyers’?…I think a moment’s pondering on our ‘legal system’ and its representatives performance, particularly at the ‘top’ level is egregrious to put it mildly. Think Alec Salmond, think Lockerbie, think Craig Murray etc.

    Think about the fact that they permitted the Tory Blair inspired ‘Supreme Court’ to be constructed as an overreaching organ of Britnat supremacy over Scots Law’s stated independence.

    Religion is faith based, therefore debatable and cannot be proven. A constitution, however, can be.

  276. Shug says:

    Is nicola
    1) very cautious and bringing indy ref 2 forward at next election
    2) Compromised by the salmond case and will resign
    3) compromised by a lifestyle and subject to Westminster Control.


  277. lumilumi says:

    Looking at the situation in Scotland ATM from the outside, Breeks’s comments in this BTL thread make the most sense. Everybody would be well-advised to read them and reflect.

    I’ve been trying to explain UK/Scottish politics to friends in my country for years. The Brexit vote in 2016 really got their attention, made them interested in the cause of Scotland. And then baffled. Why isn’t Scotland independent and a (prospective) member of the EU already?

    Because they feel they have to ask England??!!?

    Fair enough, we got our independence in 1917 by nicely asking Russia, or Lenin, who was a bit busy with the Russian Revoultion at the time. Not even a referendum, but all parties in our “devolved” Parliament agreed on independence, so we became independent on 6.12.1917. (Though the parties did not agree on the kind of independence they wanted and we had a Civil War in 1918.)

    Times a different now, of course. But creative ways of achieving independence are ever current.

    The SNP seems to have stalled, seem to have become comfortable with the status quo, no fire in their belly, and lots of side distractions like GRA, Hate Crime Bill etc. And the SNP seem to be morphing into everything that was worst about Scottish Labour.

    Entitlement, taking voters for granted because they’re supposedly the only game in town, lots of entryist, careerist “political broilers” attaching themselves to the SNP as a vehicle for career advancement and driving personal agendas (with independence low, if at all, on their agenda), and now blatant bending the rules and gerrymandering to impose top-down party control in stead of local democracy.

    That is how the SNP seems from the outside, from another country. Authoritarian, corrupt. European friends of Scottish independence are beginning to have doubts, not about Scottish independence, but about the SNP.

    Scotland dearly needs another strong indepence party – maybe first contesting list seats only in 2021 but perhaps constituency seats as well in the next HR election in 2026. (If Holyrood is even a thing by then, after hard Brexit and hardcore BritNat Tory rule.)

    Yes, I’m not hopeful that Scotland will be independent by 2026. The SNP need to get their finger out, the YES movement needs to activate and FIGHT (peacefully, of course) for independence.

    And just to think all this shit could’ve been avoided if the SNP had been more forceful in 2016 and thereafter. If they didn’t try to “stop Brexit” for the whole UK – the English and Welsh voters voted for it – but to try to avoid Brexit for Scotland through independence and remaining (or rejoining in short order) in the EU.

    Really, we from the outside don’t understand the Scottish Government’s actions (or inactions). Everything was handed to you on a plate but the SG, Nicola Sturgeon wanted the gold-rimmed plate from Westminster, which was never forthcoming.

    Go figure.

  278. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi lumilumi.

    Good to see you contributing again. It’s been MONTHS!


    Something for you from ‘off-topic’…

  279. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi lumilumi.

    Here’s the link it leads to…

  280. lumilumi says:

    Hi BTTD!

    Yeah, Sibelius is great. Us Finns being a bit picky, sniffy about how our “national composer’s” music is being played by philharmonic orchestras the world over.

    They hit all the notes but never the passion. The music is great… though perhaps a bit trite without the passion, the context.

    Sibelius published/performed some of his best work under titles like “Rural scenes”. Karelia suite or Finlandia would’ve been too contetious during the Russification period.

    But you can hear how uplifting, fighting, optimistic the music is. We Finns love Sibelius, for his music, but also for taking a stand. He and his artist friends were all for Finnish independence, and helped it to come about.

    Every ten years or so someone influential suggests replacing our national anthem (which is a 19th century student drinking song, very easy to sing) with Sibelius’s Finlandia Hymn, which is heartbreakingly beautiful and meaningful – but impossible to sing by ordinary folk.

    So we’ll go with “Maamme”, at least the lyrics were written by an important “national poet” back in the day, then translated into Finnish by an eminent “fennomanic” translator.

    Apparently our 19th century student drinking song is so good a national anthem that Estonia adopted it in the 1920s (with similar but different lyrics) and now, since 1992, uses the same song, except they dont repeat the refrain twice, only once.

    Well, we are “fellow peoples”, our launguages are closely related, almost mutually intelligible. But we are different. And share a national anthem, but that’s due to Estonian inertia. It was ours first.

  281. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi lumilumi.

    My favourite to begin with, was the Intermezzo. Then I discovered Alle Marcia. Now, I like all three parts. They’re on all my random classical/instrumental playlists.

  282. William Habib Steele says:

    Surely to have a new Act of Union, the current Union would have to be annulled! Then a Scottish Parliament would have to be elected to decide on whether they wished to be united with England; one which which would be a successor to that which was adjourned or dissolved in 1707, in a way which the current Scottish Parliament is not as it was established by the UK Government and is not competent under UK Law to deal with Constitutional matters.

  283. Sean McErlean says:

    Violates the Good Friday Agreement which states the Secretary of State must call a poll in NI if it is likely there will be a positive vote for Irish Unity and it is by simple majority. There would be pandemonium in Northern Ireland if this was floated for “all UK Nations”. A productive line of argument for the SNP may be to hammer on why the UK has agreed one thing for NI in international treaty, but denies the same to Scotland.

    Still, people keep floating supermajority requirements for NI too for concerns like stability and divisiveness. No one has yet explained how keeping NI in the Union is stable if there’s a majority to vote it out. It barely works now.

  284. Christian Schmidt says:

    Can this clause to be made to retroactively apply to the EU referendum too?

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