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Her masters’ voices

Posted on August 08, 2020 by

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    1. 08 08 20 08:57

      Her masters’ voices | speymouth

    200 to “Her masters’ voices”

    1. ALEX HOLMES says:

      Good one Chris – well done!

    2. jimnarlene says:

      Superbly sublime.

    3. Marie Clark says:

      Sums it up nicely Chris, great stuff.

    4. Simone says:

      Almost Russian dolls

    5. ronnie anderson says:

      Hiv they all got their hands up Sue’s skirt dirty puppeteers

    6. Willie says:

      Chris, you’ve missed out the biggest glove puppet of all – with that being Nicola Sturgeon

      Ah only joking, Nicola is committed to independence, an open government that has nothing to hide from enquiries, who heads a party run openly and without restriction, who who would not seek to use the law against political opponents and bloggers.

      House of Lards for Nicola methinks. She’d be in good company. Give her it for the exam results even!

    7. Juteman says:

      That’ll be a first for her Lordship.

    8. Rm says:

      The powers that be would like everyone to be puppets, things with no brains, no thought, no speech, no talking back, when your master pulls the strings you do what your master wants, we’re getting more controlled especially in the internet world, probably going back instead of forward.

    9. kapelmeister says:

      Dross in a gypsy outfit. Nice one Chris.

    10. deerhill says:

      Willie says:
      8 August, 2020 at 7:46 am

      “Ah only joking, Nicola is committed to independence, an open government that has nothing to hide from enquiries, who heads a party run openly and without restriction, who who would not seek to use the law against political opponents and bloggers.”

      Aw Willie, it’s the way you tell them!

    11. OldPete says:

      Brilliant, right on the button.

    12. McDuff says:

      Nice one Chris.

    13. Ottomanboi says:

      Speak for Scotland! ……appears to be a vacuum where that’s concerned.
      Plenty of chancers, charlatans and pretenders and the like.

    14. dakk says:

      Nice, if now a tad incongruous on this site Chris.

    15. Bob Mack says:

      @Dakk,

      Nobody is keeping you here.

    16. The big question is, who is working Dominic ?

      `late Roman-Italic name “Dominicus”, its translation means “Belonging to God” or “of the Master”.`

    17. robertknight says:

      Why would the Tories care who speaks for Scotland – the b****rds never listen anyway!

      Nice one Chris.

    18. defo says:

      Is DC standing on a hedge?

    19. dakk says:

      “Nobody is keeping you here”

      Love you too bob.

      Thought you were emigrating to France anyway.

    20. Bob Mack says:

      @Dakk,

      Love is a bit strong. We haven’t met yet.

    21. Vivian O'Blivion says:

      YouGov, Westminster voting intentions for The Times, Scottish sub-section, field work 4th to 5th August.
      Con 19%, Lab 19%, LibDem 5%, SNP 54%, Greens 2%
      Still, if certain factions get their act together we won’t have to vote in a Westminster election in May 2024 as we’ll already have had Indy Ref II.

    22. Rick H Johnston says:

      Tory BritNat chain of command.
      Says it all Chris. One of your best yet.

    23. dakk says:

      “We haven’t met yet.”

      Freedom Square the day after indy if I’m still here bob 🙂

    24. Bob Mack says:

      @Dakk,

      I’ll buy you a pint to celebrate.

    25. jfngw says:

      In his other hand he of course has Jack & Mundell shouting ‘that’s the way to do it’.

    26. Dan says:

      Meanwhile, out of picture…

      Thread starting earlier this year.

      https://twitter.com/BettGunther/status/1228279980884463619

    27. jfngw says:

      Talking of Mundell, I see there is a headline he could be interviewed by the FBI. He looks like a rabbit in the headlights just being interviewed by the press, I can only imagine at this minute someone is following him with a hoover to catch the crumbs falling from his beard as he quacks in his shoes. ‘New underwear for Mr Mundell’ is the cry heard around his colonial home.

    28. jfngw says:

      That should be quakes, but quacks is just as funny (to me anyway).

    29. HandandShrimp says:

      I was slightly surprised when Ross resigned. Not that it wasn’t the right thing to do but rather that he felt moved to do it. Last night I saw him on Newsnight refusing to criticise Cummings. I’m suspicious. Something doesn’t quite chime.

      Resigned or simply clearing the decks for action so Ross could take over as leader? Did Cummings unceremoniously ditch Carlaw and simply appoint Ross leader without so much as a by your leave with the membership?

      The cartoon is I feel spot on. The Tories have never been more of a branch office than they are today.Ross’ protestations otherwise look less than convincing.

    30. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Mundell Latest:

      “David Mundell says no indyref2 even if pro-Yes parties win big.”

      http://archive.is/90AYr

      “FBI could quiz David Mundell over Donald Trump’s lobbying for Open.”

      http://archive.is/V16Ze

    31. kapelmeister says:

      HandandShrimp

      I reckon you’ve got something there. The Ross resignation a bit of theatre staged by Cummings and Johnson to create the illusion that Dross is his own man.

    32. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Oh look, Baroness Buffalo has got the red flag flying there.

    33. jfngw says:

      Ross is running the line for Johnson, meanwhile Davidson who once thought Johnson an arse is now massaging his ego.

    34. jfngw says:

      I read the opposition want a vote of no confidence in the education secretary, if the SNP lose this vote is it is an effective vote of no confidence in the Scotgov as education was their number one priority. I would expect them to resign if the vote is lost and an election triggered, if we want an early election on independence there may be a chance coming up.

      Spoiler: The SNP won’t take it.

    35. David Llewellyn says:

      Douglas Ross has a bit of a James Kelly look.

    36. Alec Lomax says:

      jfngw – you might have noticed we’re in the middle of a pandemic ?

    37. Davie Oga says:

      jfngw

      A true government of national liberation would take that opportunity. A government committed to independence would not be defensive about it and would have used Brexit and even the virus to assert that independence is not only desirable but vital if Scotland’s story as a nation is to continue. Brexited England is a threat to Scotland’s very survival.

    38. Mialuci says:

      Bob Mack

      Tell us all, who will you vote for when the next Independence referendum comes around, you do an awful lot of whinging on here about Nicola Sturgeon and others, I usually do not get to serious about comments on this site, but your comments are insulting the intelligence of a lot of people on here, so tell us, who will you vote for, The SNP, or do you know any other party in scotland that we have not heard of, that will take us all to the promised land

    39. Doug says:

      Nice one, Chris.

      Yeuchy erse time fir English/British nationalists.

    40. Polly says:

      I love this cartoon

    41. stuart mctavish says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker

      FBI seems to be all over the place with TDS so it would be perfectly reasonable for Mundell to turn the tables on them and point out that, as the MP for his neighbouring constituency might be conflicted in promoting anything British, it is actually part of his own job to lobby for the open to come to Turnberry and what in the name of the devil do they think they are playing at in lobbying against it.

    42. John Jones says:

      See Sunak is in Rothsay without a mask, no, not the one over the mouth, the one over his eyes.

    43. winifred mccartney says:

      kapelmeister says: says:

      I think you were first to come up with the name congratulations.

      The name for the new Tory Branch Manager is: drum roll

      DROSS

      Wonderful.

    44. jfngw says:

      @Alec Lomax

      So democracy has to stop, you must be aligned with Trump then, the US election should be delayed/cancelled. I can’t see how going to a polling both is any less safe than going to a pub, rarely is there more than 2 or 3 voters in any voting station I’ve ever visited.

      Also this vote would not be until around Oct anyway once the parliamentary dance starts as the Britnats try to cobble together a majority (well enough votes to elect a FM).

    45. Andy Ellis says:

      @Milauci

      Voting in a referendum isn’t FOR a party you utter plank, it’s for a proposition. I’ll never vote for anything other than independence in a binary referendum: whether I can hold my nose and vote SNP at Holyrood or other general and local elections remains an open question. I’m obviously not alone in that.

      The problem with your lame “who else are you going to vote for, splittist!” line, as many on here are growing tired of pointing out to unreasoning party loyalists like you, is that the SNP as currently led and constituted aren’t going to lead us to independence any time soon.

      The party’s fixation on a “PLAN A & nothing BUT Plan A!” policy means it has next to zero realistic prospect of delivering a vote this decade. The fact you and others fervently disagree and have a faith based position that they will, doesn’t make it any more true.

      By all means, feel free to explain how it will come about, because none of the other party ultras has yet been able to explain how it will happen without recourse to magical wish fulfilment.

      On you go…..

    46. Sarah says:

      @ Dan at 10.00 a.m.: that link to Sarah Elliott’s twitter thread about husband Matthew Elliott being the eminence grise behind Dominic Cummings et al is terrifying.

      But isn’t it odd that she would put it on the public domain of Twitter? Can it be real?

      I hope it isn’t.

    47. jfngw says:

      @Kapelmeister

      The Mooth, the ARTful Dodger (it’s a car isn’t it) , now the DRoss, they are the gift that just keeps giving.

    48. jfngw says:

      @Andy Ellis

      Voting SNP may not deliver independence but there is a chance it will. I can guarantee though letting the London parties take control of Holyrood is a 100% guarantee of not getting independence. At this minute there is no other party with enough clout to make a difference, it might be an old claim, doesn’t make it any less true.

    49. jfngw says:

      I noticed a programme where William the Bald dropped in on Peter Crouch with a curry. Meanwhile a guide troop in Slough are keeping their whereabouts secrets after hearing a rumour another royal wished to drop in with some pizzas.

    50. schrodingers cat says:

      which set of puppets are on cummings other hand?

      makes you wonder what they found on his computer eh?

    51. Andy Ellis says:

      @jfngw

      There is a chance of it yes. As I’ve argued with some of the SNP ultras on here in the past (including the unlamented Bungo and Schröders Cat amongst others), nobody is saying it’s impossible that Pete Wishart’s magical thinking will somehow come true, it’s just that more and more of us aren’t prepared to take it on trust.

      You and he MAY be right: the SNP appears likely to win an outright majority in 2021. They may then ask for a S30 Order. BoJo might say Yes. He might allow it to happen within a year or 2. He might honour the Edinburgh Agreement precedent. That’s a whole heap of “mights”.

      If you and others honestly still think that this SNP leadership, and the supine membership and voting base, have it in them to deliver independence, all I can do is applaud your optimism. Any objective observer however would look at the balance of probabilities.

      It is overwhelmingly likely any British nationalist administration with the power to do so will veto any referendum. It is similarly more likely than not that if it becomes a matter for the courts, they will support the UK government view, not Martin Keatings, that a S30 Order is a pre-requisite. Of course, even if the courts find in Keatings favour, we still have to trust the SNP to actually have the courage to call a referendum.

      In truth, I suspect many in the current SNP leadership are praying for Keatings’ case to fail, because if it succeeds it means they’ll have nowhere to hide.

    52. Dogbiscuit says:

      Alex Lomax fuck off with that ‘pandemic’ push you Government shill.

    53. Dogbiscuit says:

      A pandemic of fear and stupidity.

    54. schrodingers cat says:

      @andy
      feel free to explain how it will come about, because none of the other party ultras has yet been able to explain how it will happen

      —————————

      except me of course andy. we vote snp at next election, we win a majority, hey presto
      job done

    55. Dogbiscuit says:

      Scottish Nationalish Party.

    56. Dogbiscuit says:

      jfngw London already controls Holyrood.

    57. Dogbiscuit says:

      Schrödingaling Nicola Sturgeons fixation on section30 belies your optimism.

    58. Dogbiscuit says:

      Pish not push. Bastard computer.

    59. jfngw says:

      @Andy Ellis

      You have catalogued the SNP failures, that doesn’t show me what your alternative is and how it wins independence. Boycott the SNP to deliver independence looks like a hollow argument at the minute without an alternative.

      Maybe the next thing Mr Keatings should do is take the Treaty of Union to international courts as being imposed under duress and bribery, passed by a 0.008% of the population many of whom gained financially for selling out their country. Have it thrown out as being unjust and imbalance to the advantage of one country over another, The Treaty of Versailles was more generous to the Germans than the union treaty, I’m sure we didn’t lay claim to 90% of Germanys resources in perpetuity.

    60. Breastplate says:

      Independent thinker: Boris Johnson will not grant a Section 30.

      SNP loyalist: Yes he will.

      Independent thinker: No he won’t as he doesn’t have to?

      SNP loyalist: Yes he does.

      Independent thinker: There are no rules, regulations or laws that compel him to do so.

      SNP loyalist: But he will.

      Independent thinker: I understand that you feel that opinion polls showing a majority in favour of independence will force him to change his mind but that is just wishful thinking.

      SNP loyalist: No it isn’t.

      Independent thinker: Expecting Boris Johnson to change his mind because it was the right thing to do would require him to have some integrity and he doesn’t have any.

      SNP loyalist: Yes he does.

      Independent thinker: He doesn’t care what Scotland thinks.

      SNP loyalist: Yes he does.

      Independent thinker: No he doesn’t.

      SNP loyalist: Yes he does!

      Independent thinker: This isn’t a debate, this is just contradiction.

      SNP loyalist: No it isn’t.

      Independent: Yes it is.

      SNP loyalist: No it isn’t

      Independent thinker: I don’t think we have anything left to discuss.

      SNP loyalist: Yes we do.
      ———————————————————————————————

      This debate has been brought to you by Monty Python.

    61. jfngw says:

      @Dogbiscuit

      Go away with your silly deflections. I’m not interested in what London is or what they want, I want us to throw London out of any involvement.

      There is a difference with taking control against the wishes of the Scot Parl and the Scot Parl willingly handing them over. The equivalent of when Labour handed back cash as it wasn’t needed, ‘take these powers we don’t really need them, we agree Scots will in future only be sovereign with London’s acquiescence’.

    62. schrodingers cat says:

      Breastplate says:
      Independent thinker: Boris Johnson will not grant a Section 30.

      SNP loyalist: No he wont. we dont need one either, we vote in next holyrood election, we win big, hey presto

    63. jfngw says:

      @Breastplate

      You really need to speak to more SNP members than Pete Wishart. But if you enjoy pidgeon holing people, enjoy the feast.

      I’m still a member, sometimes against my better judgement but I don’t see anything better available yet. I would probably be expelled for some of the things I’ve posted here, I’ve breached the membership rules with some of my comments.

      Was that one of the rejected scripts?

    64. Andy Ellis says:

      @SC

      “except me of course andy. we vote snp at next election, we win a majority, hey presto
      job done”
      – – – – – – – – –

      We vote SNP at Holyrood 2021. We win a majority. We ask for S30 Order. Boris says “now is not the time”. Rinse, repeat.
      #Indyref2039
      Thanks a bunch.

    65. Andy Ellis says:

      @jfngw

      “You have catalogued the SNP failures, that doesn’t show me what your alternative is and how it wins independence. Boycott the SNP to deliver independence looks like a hollow argument at the minute without an alternative.”
      – – – – – – – –

      How many times does the alternative need to be spelt out to Sturgeonista shills like you? This really isn’t rocket science. It’s been floated by multiple sources over many, many months, yet still you’re like a dog returning to your own vomit of “what the alternative, splittist!!”.

      All the SNP has to do is announce next week that , based on the SG’s multiple mandates, they expect Westminster to abide by the Edinburgh Agreement precedent within 48 hours of this announcement. Refusal, or failure to answer, will render every succeeding Holyrood or Westminster elections a de facto plebiscite on independence.

      Where pro-indy parties win 50% +1 in any such election, we will deem ourselves independent. Simples.

      The alternative to SNP right now is to ensure “real” independence supporters are elected to Holyrood on the list to hold the feet of the devolutionists SNP to the fire, because it’s abundantly clear that their platform will not deliver a vote – still less actual independence – in the current decade. The fact you earnestly believe in unicorns doesn’t make them real.

      Happy to help.

    66. Andy Ellis says:

      @jfngw

      “I’m still a member, sometimes against my better judgement but I don’t see anything better available yet. I would probably be expelled for some of the things I’ve posted here, I’ve breached the membership rules with some of my comments.”
      – – – – – –

      It figures. You lack the courage to come out publicly and identify yourself. You feel sure the SNP are generally on the right track because *reasons*, but you’re happy to throw rocks at them from the sidelines just as long as it doesn’t cost you anything.

      No wonder the SNP is in the state that it’s in.

      I warmly recomment Robert McAlpine’s recent article to you.

      https://sourcenews.scot/robin-mcalpine-the-foundations-of-scotlands-democracy-have-crumbled-and-you-should-worry/

      It’s pretty obvious that folk like you, lacking in any appreciable political courage, are a big part of the problem, not part of the solution.

    67. jfngw says:

      The Scottish Fabians are worried about Scottish democracy, they think the SNP are unaccountable.

      At the next election and the 22 years of the Scottish Parliament the SNP has been in power for 68% of the period, had a majority for 23% of the time with a vote over 45% in the last 2 elections.

      The Tories have since 1979 till the next election been in power for 71% of this period. They have obtained absolute majorities for 60% of this same period with a vote never reaching 45% (in 2015 they gained a majority on 37.7% of the vote).

      Which is the undemocratic parliament?

      They want a new act of union, one that removes Scotland’s ability to leave, one that removes Scotland’s sovereignty, they are as Britnat as a stock of rock with the union flag embedded in its core.

    68. Sarah says:

      @ Andy Ellis: there is a flaw in your argument, I think. Only members of the SNP have a definite chance to influence policy. Leaving the party, or never belonging in the first place, doesn’t allow the same input, obviously.

    69. PacMan says:

      kapelmeister says: 8 August, 2020 at 10:27 am

      HandandShrimp

      I reckon you’ve got something there. The Ross resignation a bit of theatre staged by Cummings and Johnson to create the illusion that Dross is his own man.

      I was actually thinking that myself.

      Certainly Ross has done good politically, from his perspective anyway, by going from a political nobody to the leader of the Tories in Scotland.

      This may fool certain sections of society but it certainly doesn’t fool us.

    70. jfngw says:

      @Andy Ellis

      Being lectured by a superior being, I prostrate myself at your intellect and courage. You are iconoclastic, you are breaking the mould, when will you get Scotland independence, ‘from behind the keyboard I will mobilise a nation said nobody’.

      Read the article yesterday, it’s mostly shit.

    71. C Griffiths says:

      Brilliant. “The SNP doesn’t speak for Scotland” yoons often love to say as if they’re stating a fact in a clever way. Well, as they keep winning in a representative democracy the SNP do actually.

    72. jfngw says:

      @Andy Ellis

      I believe I’ve spotted many SNP members/supporters advance the plebiscite election route for years, it’s not a new idea.

      And the question I asked what was the alternative if the SNP don’t do what you want, what are you going to do about it beyond insulting people online. You must be a boycott the SNP boy, return the Tories for independence brigade, I wonder why that would be.

    73. Republicofscotland says:

      Well you got that one spot on Chris, the SNP doesn’t speak for Scotland alright it speaks for Sturgeon/Murrell and her cosy wee clique, and the current SNP leader certainly doesn’t speak out for independence either.

      We expect treachery from Davidson, Ross etc but from our own FM, its been a hard kick in the stomach to take, I just hope Scots get back up on their feet and take a deep collective breath, and with a pumped up fist in the air cry out loud for change at the top of the SNP, and onward to independence.

    74. Alec Lomax says:

      jfngw – what government would that be, dude ? Whatever one it is they’re rather tardy in putting money in my bank account.

    75. Alec Lomax says:

      Alliance for Scotland speaks for Scotland ?

    76. Andy Ellis says:

      @Sarah

      Only members had a direct influence perhaps, although from what I’ve seen many members don’t feel they have that much (or any?) influence. The influence the broader electorate has is just not to vote for them.

      For what it’s worth, I couldn’t see myself rejoining a party that’s behaved the way the SNP has over the past few years anyway. I might still vote for them in my constituency depending who the candidate is, I certainly won’t be voting for them on the list. It’s apparent many people feel the same way, but doubtless it won’t make a lot of difference in the 2021 elections, but who knows – if a week is a long time in politics, who knows what might happen in 9 months time.

      It is interesting however that the over-reach of the woke Stasi last week, and the reaction to it, seems to have been driven by opinion amongst voters and rank and file members expressing their outrage to the high heid yins.

      A promising start perhaps…but early days yet.

    77. Andy Ellis says:

      @jfngw

      The alternative is not having a vote. So what you’re advocating for is in effect #indyref2039. The SNP aren’t entitled to my vote or that of anyone else. They have to earn it. Right now they aren’t. As I’ve said before, I’ll vote for them tactically if it suits me. In my constituency I’d vote for Joanna Cherry if the ridiculous #Cherrygate decision is reversed. I won’t vote for Roberston or Biagi. On the list I’ll vote for ISP or WoS if he stands a party up.

      In the end, it won’t matter how big a majority Sturgeon gets, or what % vote SNP if the party remains wedded to accepting Westminster has to “allow” us to exercise our self determination.

      It doesn’t take a genius to work out how that scenario plays out.

    78. Republicofscotland says:

      It say a lot about Sturgeon and her lack of action on the independence front over the last few years, that its been left to a group of private individuals (Forward as One) to have to crowd fund a court case to try and prove that a S30 order isn’t needed to hold an Independence referendum.

      The group even had to resist a motion from the Scottish government to halt proceedings for 3 months, after they were subject to a further motion from the Scottish government which the government had to drop at a late stage.

      How many bloody times do we need to expose the machinations and the hypocrisy of the SNP heirarchy before die-hard Sturgeonistas actually open their eyes and realise what’s going on.

    79. jfngw says:

      @schrodingers cat

      I think the reason many people shy away from the plebiscite election is the nature of an election that encompasses more than just independence and four other parties. It’s give the other parties the opportunity to deflect the argument by making spending promises backed up by Westminster (probably never delivered but that’s their standard practise). Expect the other parties to not mention independence at all during the election then claim there was no proper debate, every underhand trick will be played.

      We are arguing for independence, some voters ‘oh I’m going to get an extra tenner if I vote for them’. It’s a risky strategy, it may end up the only one available though.

    80. bipod says:

      In England the lockdown led to 16,000 additional deaths within the first 2 months.

      https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-lockdown-may-have-indirectly-caused-16-000-excess-deaths-study-12044923

      This is a report compiled by the ONS, it was shown to SAGE last month but is only now being released. Sobering reading for those that demand an endless lockdown until a mythical vaccine is developed. Does anyone think that this will give nicola pause before implementing another unjustifiable lockdown? Doubt it.

    81. jfngw says:

      @Andy Ellis

      No I’m not advocating just keeping the SNP in power forever, that is something you have just made up but I have never written.

      I’m saying we need to keep the British parties out of power and if the SNP won’t deliver create another party that will, but that can’t be done overnight. It takes planning and a believable leader, I wish the ISP well at the coming election but at present they are too invisible to make a real impact. Being visible on here and twitter does not guarantee election success, the Rev has a lot of readers but many will not have a vote and many are not independence supporters.

    82. Andy Ellis says:

      @jfngw

      You’re as bad as Bungo of ill fame. If you interact with what I actually say, not what you wrongly infer, we’ll all get along much better. I didn’t say you advocated keeping the SNP in power for ever. I said by following your proposed policy, the SNP were very unlikely to be able to deliver on their promise of a referendum &/or indy.

      Keeping the britnats out of power is great and commendable in itself. Luckily the state of the opposition at present makes is a racing certainty that the SNP will win in 2021 Holyrood election, possibly even have an outright majority. That victory, however desirable from the POV of being better than having yoons in power, still doesn’t translate to the SNP delivering a referendum, still less independence.

      Since, in my view and that of many others, the SNP’s stated policy is likely to ensure we won’t get a vote this decade, it makes sense for those disillusioned with the SNP to begin the process you talk about. After all, we have little else to lose when the SNP aren’t going to deliver. We’ve seen the polling evidence of what a list only party led by someone like Salmond could achieve.

      Even if Eck or Stu Campbell isn’t interested in standing up an alternative to ISP or the Alliance there wouldn’t seem to be anything to lose in my view. A credible list only party is only likely to increase pro-indy seats and impact unionist list MSP in the first instance, and I for one would much prefer some alternative pro-indy voices to the SNP and Greens.

    83. jfngw says:

      @Andy Ellis

      So what you’re advocating for is in effect #indyref2039.

      This is what you said, admittedly not forever but around 20 years, I’ll be more than likely dead by then so it is forever in my context.

      And in reality there is no tactical vote in the constituency unless the Green’s stand up a candidate. It is either SNP, British or abstention (abstention is in effect a 50% vote for the Brits as it is one less vote for the total they need to win).

      Vote for who you like, I’m not telling you how to vote, I’m giving you my opinion of the consequences, enough constituency abstentions combined with tactical voting can result in Douglas Ross as FM.

    84. Neil H says:

      Not sure if the irony of SNP actually no-longer speaking for Scotland is the joke, or whether its focus on Cummings’ projection is. Works on both levels.

    85. Neil H says:

      On reflection, Sturgeon would be the puppeteer, and the puppets would be legion.

    86. Andy Ellis says:

      @jfngw

      Sheesh…you just can’t kill a bad idea. My comments were about the prospect of the SNP delivering a referendum &/or independence NOT about how long they were in power for or what their majority is/will be.

      Luckily for us (and the SNP) the unionist opposition in Scotland is so execrable there is little to know chance of them being in a majority in your lifetime, so you should be happy.

      The issue, as we keep having to re-explain to hard of thinking Sturgeonistas, is that whether the SNP is in power and the size of their majority or % of their vote, signifies precisely nothing if they meekly accept that Westminster has to grant permission for us to exercise our self determination.

      I don’t think I can dumb it down for you any more than I already have.

      If the SNP doesn’t have a majority (which hardly seems likely given current policy) it’s still likely there will be a pro-indy majority with the Greens and possibly other minor pro-indy parties if the ISP, Alliance or A. N. Other party emerges. Personally I’d prefer the current SNP (or SNP/Greens) not to have a majority but to be beholden to other pro-indy voices because I wouldn’t trust Sturgeon or Harvie further than I could throw them.

      Douglas Ross is as likley to become FM as I am to become prima ballerina assoluta at the Bolshoi.

    87. jfngw says:

      @Andy Ellis

      I’ll make one final comment as I’ve already posted too many today.

      I can’t see AS starting a new party from scratch, he is ages with me and it is a Herculean task to take on. The energy and time required is huge, does he still have that energy and drive, will the predictable press hounding make him wary of entering the battle.

    88. Doug Buchannan says:

      Just imagine as some on here seem to want, the FM resigned, the cabinet followed suit and The SNP disbanded.

      The backdrop to this is voting intentions to the Scottish Parliament (SNP) and independence are between 55% – 60%.

      What next?

      A party that currently does not exist and has no one, repeat no one, credible to lead it is going to win over the trust of the Scottish people?

      What are the policies?

      1. Actively hate anyone and everything that Stu does not like.
      2. Hate trans people
      3. Hate the Gaelic language

      That’s a lot of hate, but no tangible policies on education, transport or health, let alone independence!

      Some people on here really need to look at themselves and ask why are they so easily manipulated and how their contributions on here serve the cause of independence?

      A couple of years ago this site would have run stories on the sleaze involved with Ross becoming tory leader, it would have been laid bare for all to discuss. Instead we have manufactured stories on the SNP and the selection of candidates.

      How does ignoring tory sleaze and manufacturing SNP BAD stories help the cause of independence?

    89. Bill Hume says:

      Great cartoon but I do wonder if there is some unseen person with his hand up Dominic’s bahookie.

    90. red sunset says:


      Doug Buchannan says:
      8 August, 2020 at 3:31 pm
      Just imagine as some on here seem to want, the FM resigned, the cabinet followed suit and The SNP disbanded.”

      Doug, I don’t often comment here, and sorry I won’t be able to enter into any conversation this afternoon, as I’ve got some sunbathing to catch up on.

      But reading your comment as quoted, I really don’t know where you got that from. I’m not aware of anyone on this site advocating for the SNP to disband.

      It seems a very weird idea, for independence supporters.

      I’ll check back in again tonight for a while, see what that’s all about. Maybe I’ve misunderstood you.

    91. Andy Ellis says:

      @Doug Buchanan

      If straw manning was an olympic sport bud you’d be a shoo-in for the gold.

      Didn’t take long for Bungo’s replacement to crawl out from the gradualist dung heap did it?

      Tell us Doug, if the SNP is so wonderful, how come polls suggest >20% would vote for a list only party led by Salmond in 2021?

    92. It seems to me the way the SNP has been acting lately the real puppeteers are us,???

    93. robertknight says:

      Doug Buchanan @3:31

      “The backdrop to this is voting intentions to the Scottish Parliament (SNP) and independence are between 55% – 60%.”

      The broader canvas to your backdrop is that even if voting intentions were 75% – 80%, we’d still be no closer to Indy with team Sturgeon/Murrell.

      I suspect that certain individuals of the gradualist/devolutionist persuasion within the SNP have concluded that, post-Indy, the fortunes of them and the SNP itself will up and disappear like a fart in the wind – a school of thought prevalent no doubt among those who make a comfortable living in the Palace of Westminster.

      Why then should the turkeys be out campaigning hard for Christmas?

      We should expect to hear much more in the way of “now is not the time”, but from lips belonging to someone other than the UK PM, and therein lies the problem!

    94. jfngw says:

      I see some want an enquiry into the this years exam results, I think this is a good idea.

      What I would like to see is the predictions and actual pass rate for every school compared and see if there is any trend in over or under predicting results in the last five years, ‘I taught them to band A, they must have just flunked the exam on the day’ is great back covering. If there is a trend then this needs to be investigated further.

      Also was the moderation process actually fair.

    95. crazycat says:

      @ Doug Buchannan at 3.31

      2. Hate trans people

      You really have not understood this issue at all, have you?

      Supporting women’s rights does not equal “hating trans people”.

    96. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @andy
      feel free to explain how it will come about, because none of the other party ultras has yet been able to explain how it will happen

      Another variation on the truth Andy? You really are a lost cause when it comes to mendacity.

    97. Breastplate says:

      SC @ 12:40pm
      You seem a little defensive, would you class yourself as an SNP loyalist?
      The SNP loyalists are ready and willing to follow Nicola Sturgeon’s plan for independence which entails asking Boris if it’s ok with him first, of course. They also don’t necessarily need to be that fussed on self determination.

      I have never been a member of any party but I have only ever voted SNP since I’ve been able to vote. The one and only reason for that was independence. I don’t care who delivers independence for Scotland just as long as they do. I am not an SNP loyalist.

      I know you want a plebiscite and I’m more than happy with anything that works but that’s not the SNP stance though, is it?

    98. Breastplate says:

      Jfngw @ 12:50pm

      I’ve already had that debate I posted at 12:25pm with Paul Kavanagh on WGD last week, it may have been different words but amounted to exactly the same thing. So yes, I’m well aware of various positions amongst SNP supporters and voters regarding independence.

    99. Breastplate says:

      Good grief, speak of the Devil

    100. Mags says:

      Just out of curiosity how likely would it be if sturgeon resigned or was kicked out before the end of this year? Remember thatcher and may were kicked out. As she is hell bent in destroying the economy etc sooner she is out the better. There is even a petition on a ‘no confidence’ against her. The longer she stays the more damage she does.

    101. Marydoll says:

      O/t sort of

      Isn’t there anything in the holyrood rulebook that won’t allow a party leader who has resigned from just appearing as leader when it suits her.and doesn’t the leader of the opposition have to be an MSP. There must be some sort of standards!

    102. jfngw says:

      @Mags

      There is no comparison between how the Tories and SNP change their leaders. If you are a SNP member you can try and remove her, if not then you get your say at an election.

      @Marydoll

      No

    103. Juteman says:

      I’ve only ever voted SNP since the ’70’s, but am thinking seriously about my list vote, depending on the situation at the time.
      The only thing that gives me pause is the obvious unionist trolls that have got behind it on here, and have went on full out SNP attack.
      If genuine folk that want me to vote for another party on the list don’t get a grip of the trolls I might stick with both votes for the SNP. They are doing your cause no help at all.

    104. Ian Brotherhood says:

      For those who may have missed it, here’s a soo-perb comment by Breeks from very early this morning, appeared on the previous thread:

      Breeks says:
      8 August, 2020 at 7:38 am
      I wish Alex Salmond would write a book too, but from the off, I wondered how any book that gave away the identity of the alphabet women would be possible while these malicious conspirators enjoy protection from anonymity, the State, and the Scottish Government. What a grievous indictment upon Scotland that they do.

      twathater says:
      8 August, 2020 at 1:54 am

      …The Scottish parliament is proposing a new bill to stop Alex Salmond publishing his book! Defamation and Malicious Publication (Scotland) Bill…

      My god, if that’s true, what a nasty and vindictive phenomenon we have passing itself off as a Scottish Government. An absolute ogre, crushing the Scottish people and squandering their constitutional birthrights, and lying through it’s teeth about Independence, yet cowardly, gutless and wholly ineffective in it’s capacity to defend Scotland from Westminster.

      The SNP increasingly looks like a rotten Scottish Local Authority. No competence in any sector except it’s nepotism, corruption and collusion between itself and it’s domesticated rogues, and the general public denied any path to justice.

      I actually understand the ‘good’ people which have been taken in by Nicola. It’s the next mandate, not the last 6 mandates, which will make the difference and unlock Independence. They are just ordinary people who don’t want to believe their eyes and ears.

      Nicola hasn’t been building the case for Scottish Independence. Brexit gave her all the tools needed to do that and secure Scotland’s exit from the UK but she enthusiastically ducked and dived her way out of that, and squandered every opportunity for nothing in return. The only thing Nicola Sturgeon has been cultivating is her own political citadel, surrounded by her own praetorian guard, and spitefully vindictive towards anyone who expects her to deliver material progress on Scottish Independence.

      All these people who attempt to slaughter Wings, and dare to suggest it is the criticism voiced here which threatens Independence are truly unprepared for the shocking reality that’s heading their way. The SNP under Sturgeon isn’t going to deliver Independence. They had the ready means of doing precisely that on every single day since the Brexit result was declared, but instead they laid on extra bullshit and diversionary rhetoric until one by one, Scotland’s windows of opportunity were closed.

      I’m going to say something nasty, but you’ll just have to take my word that I’m not trying to be nasty, but Scotland’s problem isn’t Sturgeons cosy wee autocracy. Scotland’s inherent weakness are the decent and ordinary YES footsoldiers who shore it up, who don’t ask questions, and who will follow the SNP simply because it carries a pro Independence banner.

      Maybe these folks are lucky enough to have never known betrayal, and refuse to believe it will ever happen to them. What’s so depressing is that Scotland has just been betrayed, twice, and it still doesn’t register. Our democratic mandate to fight Brexit was sold down the river. The Constitutional Sovereignty of our Nation has been body swerved so that the Scottish “Government” could forfeit Scotland’s constitutional strength and capitulate to the will of Westminster.

      What are these devastating injuries to Scotland if not betrayals? What are all those squandered mandates we have wasted on the SNP if not broken contracts?

      The SNP is living on borrowed time. The 54% for Independence is lying hostage to the SNP’s borrowed time, because for the time being, much of the Scottish electorate is in the dark about these betrayals, and the dirty smearing of Alex Salmond, the ramifications of GRA reform, the Hate Crime Legislation, and the SNP’s aloof indifference to criticism. But for some of us who consider ourselves more astute, the SNP under it’s current leadership is a walking catastrophe which simply unelectable because it has committed sins which are unforgivable. It is the SNP’s hubris and strategic incompetence which represent the greatest possible threat to Scottish Independence, NOT the anger and frustration of those who will speak out about their damaging ineptitude, and demand something better.

    105. @Doug Buchannan,

      `Hate trans people`

      gonna give us a link or a quote where anyone has disparaged trans people,

      you are either one of the misogynists and peodophile enablers that have hijacked the trans lobby or you have still to catch up on what is really happening,

      hoping it is the second.

    106. schrodingers cat says:

      @breastplate

      all elections going forward will be seen by everyone as plebiscites on independence regardless of what nicola decides

      Independence will be central to the snp manifesto, the only question that remains is to what extent will nicola capitalise on this? hint, she wont announce her intension 8 months out from the election or until she sees the polls holding nearer the time.

      people are demanding a plan b. i just gave you one.

      feel free to post your own folks

    107. twathater says:

      Chris bang on as usual,Dross,Bozo,Cuntings,bang on but I’m afraid you made tRuthless look almost HUMAN

    108. schrodingers cat says:

      looks like the crowd fund, to bring legal action to confirm holyrood has the right to hold a referendum without wm’s agreement, is floundering

      i guess folk dont think it is a worthwhile use of their money

    109. Andy Ellis says:

      @SC

      “people are demanding a plan b. i just gave you one.”

      No, you didn’t. It will only accepted by the international community as a mandate for indy if it was fought on that basis. There is zero evidence of Nicola having the chops for that. If she had, why hasn’t she said so? (Pro tip: “keeping her cards close to her chest” is no more an adequate response than Pete Wishart’s fervent belief in unicorns).

      As others have pointed out, people will simply state that unless the elections were fought on a specifically plebiscitary mandate, they can’t be used as a prima facie argument for independence, because people aren’t necessarily voting SNP in general elections to achieve indy, unless the parties themselves make it explicit.

      Happy to help.

      – – – – – – – –

      “i guess folk dont think it is a worthwhile use of their money”

      Perhaps folk just think the Scottish Government should have done it 5 years ago?

    110. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “ makes you wonder what they found on his computer eh?”

      Assuming that is an unfounded allegation based on WoS not toeing the SNP is great Party line and Stu getting lifted a couple of years ago? @schrodingers cat says at 12:00 pm

    111. twathater says:

      I don’t know about the fundraiser foundering its over £46,000 in 3 days plus people haven’t had the ability to earn with Covid , but I also note quite a few comments saying this SHOULD have been done by the SNP SG instead of a private individual BEGGING for money to FREE SCOTLAND FROM THIS MORASS, but never mind NS has a secret plan shhhhusshh

    112. Liz says:

      If you read the interview with NS in the National,she’s washing her hands of the decision taken to bar Joanna from putting her name forward for selection.
      Unbelievable.
      http://archive.is/O7djO

    113. Beaker says:

      @Juteman says:
      8 August, 2020 at 7:51 am
      “That’ll be a first for her Lordship.”

      Thank you for making me choke on my tea 🙂

      I see Sturgeon is in full “don’t panic” mode. So the SQA moderation is not an issue, nothing to hide about Salmond, there will definitely be a referendum next year, only very minor issues within the SNP about candidate selection, nothing to worry about COVID…

      Next she will be stating that Swinney has her full confidence.

      Is she taking lessons from Boris?

      @jfngw says:
      8 August, 2020 at 4:45 pm
      “I see some want an enquiry into the this years exam results, I think this is a good idea.”

      So do I. Bet there will not be anything conclusive prior to next year’s elections, since the Scot Govt are not going come out of this well.

    114. Bob Mack says:

      Independence is always central to the SNP moifesto and we always aLl walk into that cage to be captured like the gullible children on Chitty Chitty Bang Bang following the lures of sugary promises.

    115. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @”Mags 5:42 pm

      Just out of curiosity how likely would it be if sturgeon resigned or was kicked out before the end of this year? Remember thatcher and may were kicked out. As she is hell bent in destroying the economy etc sooner she is out the better. There is even a petition on a ‘no confidence’ against her. The longer she stays the more damage she does“.

      FFS! She’s the most popular politician in Scotland, leading the most popular party in Scotland with the core policy of that party, independence, also leading in the polls. Only in nutjob land could that be considered a record to resign on for ‘alleged‘ independence supporters. And only enemies of independence would think it beneficial to independence to see her go. It’s madness to think otherwise.

    116. jfngw says:

      @iain brotherhood

      The defamation bill has nothing to do with the Alex Salmond case, it has been in progress since at least 2017, you can find all the consultations with legal firms online. It references the changes in Wales in 2013 and brings Scotland’s laws into line with other UK countries regarding the internet.

      @Beaker

      Nonsense, there was no perfect solution, in fact the solution in Scotland looks like it will be fairer than other UK countries.

    117. Beaker says:

      @Me Bungo Pony says:
      8 August, 2020 at 7:33 pm
      “FFS! She’s the most popular politician in Scotland, leading the most popular party in Scotland with the core policy of that party,”

      Against the most disorganised and impotent opposition in living memory, combined with a hat trick of incompetent Prime Ministers, polling only shows 54%?

      Problems are surfacing in the public arena because she is not the great leader some people think. Discipline is sorely lacking in some areas. Some of her politicians have dismissed pupils’ concerns about their results as trivial.

      Perhaps she is spending too much time on her book reviews…

    118. Dan says:

      @Juteman

      Your name hints that you may be in Dundee which is included in the North East Scotland Regional List area.
      An area where in 2016 the SNP obtained 137 thousand Regional List votes and returned zero List SNP MSPs for all those votes cast. Similar occurred in 6 out of the 8 Regions.

      The concept of a new Pro-Indy Party standing on the Regional Lists is supported by the information on the following page.
      Folk really should take the time to read through and comprehend the information, particularly that relating to the Regional List Voting.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Scottish_Parliament_election

      Actually putting a successful strategy into practice from the concept is another matter altogether, and at this time there are already several aspects that are in the mix which complicates matters unless they are resolved. EG. Multiple List Parties, individuals possibly standing as Independent candidates meaning no pooling of votes in a particular region, and campaign message becomes more difficult.
      Basically it’s just the usual modus of Scottish folk agreeing with a particular direction they want to go, but disagreeing on the type of vehicle used to make the journey, then agreeing with the colour the vehicle should be, then bickering over the shade of the particular colour they agreed with, and ultimately fighting to the death over whether the paint finish should be gloss or satin…

      The idea has been floated about for years, but has come to the fore even more so now because we find the democratic options available to Scots to determine our future being rather time constrained before bad shit happens, and for some bizarre reason the two main Pro-Indy Parties have chosen to take positions on certain policies which a significant proportion of the electorate do not agree with.
      So at a time when you’d think our main Indy parties would be wanting to gather as many folk into the room as possible, they’ve chosen to coil out several big stinky shites on the floor which puts off many folk wanting to enter the room.
      As exam results are topical at the moment, I think that would earn an F- in Political Strategy Studies…

    119. Beaker says:

      @Dan says:
      8 August, 2020 at 7:48 pm
      “As exam results are topical at the moment, I think that would earn an F- in Political Strategy Studies…”

      Appeal to the SQA and tell them you live in Kilmacolm.

      You’ll get an A…

    120. Tam the Bam says:

      Doug Buchanan @ 3-31pm

      In a nutshell Doug.

    121. Willie says:

      Couldn’t agree more with earlier commentators that the SNP is living on borrowed time.

      Unless it changes tack and cleans up the sty the internal implosion together with a mass drift away from the party at the ballot box will be enormous. Members, and even less the voters, owe a bloated belligerent party like the SNP has become, absolutely nothing.

      Like guttersnipes fighting in the roadway, Sturgeon and her coteries are nothing without voters and members. And the party they ruined will be replaced.

      I hope not. I hope the party changes tack. I really do. But equally, like tens of thousands of ordinary members I am realistic enough to understand that if the party does not change, if the corrupt are not outed, then folks will destroy the party in favour of another who will stand in its shoes.

      Nearly forty years a member, and a loyal committed member at that, I make that promise.

    122. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dan at 7:48 pm.

      You typed,
      “@Juteman

      Your name hints that you may be in Dundee which is included in the North East Scotland Regional List area.
      An area where in 2016 the SNP obtained 137 thousand Regional List votes and returned zero List SNP MSPs for all those votes cast.”

      I did the wurky-out for what could have happened in the NE Scotland region in the 2016 election, if ONE Pro-indy party had stood, only for the region, and attracted 25% and 40% of the SNP’s regional vote.

      You can see the results at the link below:-

      Quick summary…
      2016 actual result in the regional vote:-
      Tories 4 MSPs
      Labour 2 MSPs
      Lib-Dem 1 MSP

      2016, if 25% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 3
      Labour – 2
      Pro-Indy – 1
      Lib-Dem – 1

      2016, if 40% of SNP regional votes had gone to a Pro-Indy party:-
      Tories – 3
      Pro-Indy – 2
      Labour – 1
      Lib-Dem – 1

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/quarantine/comment-page-3/#comment-2549419

    123. jfngw says:

      Those that mock the idea that Douglas Ross can be FM, the Tories don’t need to win they just need to keep the independence seats below 50%. The FM is elected by parliament, the London parties can then elect a FM, they don’t need to go into coalition but just not introduce any controversial bills that would result in a defeat.

      You don’t believe they would do this because I do, they would then delay any chance of independence for at least 5 years, they could even make any referendum or independence parliamentary vote in Scotland require a super majority.

      You can oust NS but if done in a way that destroys peoples confidence in Scotland’s ability to govern itself then you have gained nothing. Apart from the trolls on here who would have achieved their objective.

    124. Breastplate says:

      Jfngw,
      Why is it necessary to insist that people who don’t agree with you are Unionist trolls?
      Does it mean you don’t have to engage them in any kind of debate?

    125. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      As I see it, there are a number of different “groupings” in existence, today, in Scotland.

      1. Members of the SNP who can see nothing wrong within the party and its direction.

      2. Members of the SNP who are raising questions about the internal machinations taking place within the party.

      3. SNP voters who get their news from STV, BBC, MSM, etc.

      4. SNP voters who get their news from Twitter, Facebook, etc.

      5. SNP voters who are content with the performance of the SNP government over the past 13 years but who don’t fall into any of the previous categories.

      6. Floating voters, who are impressed with Nicola’s handling of the Covid pandemic and may be coming round to the idea that we’d better off independent so may change their vote to SNP at the HE.

      7. The entire YES movement, who are champin’ at the bit – and could include many of the previous categories.

      8. Diehard unionists – apparently, around 25-30% of the Scottish electorate.

      So, what’s the best way to achieve independence within the next year?

    126. Rm says:

      @Briandoonthetoon @9.12 that’s probably the way it is, still looking better than it was a few years ago, It’ll end up good but for folk that’s getting on a bit well I’m nae sure we’ll maybe nae see Scotland on its own.

    127. Andy Ellis says:

      @jfngw

      More tilting at windmills. We don’t need the (objectively very unlikely) prospect of a unionist resurgence or SNP losing seats to delay independence by 5 years though, do we? Barring some political earthquake the SNP will have a majority in 2021, possibly an absolute majority. It still get’s us no closer to independence, whatever nonsense Pete Wishart comes out with.

      The clear and present danger to independence being delayed until 2029 or beyond is the SNP’s lack of a Plan B. You and your gradualist mates can keep trying to sell the “indy has never bee nearer” snake oil, but more and more of us aren’t buying it.

    128. jfngw says:

      And there off!

    129. Alec Lomax says:

      Willie – where’s this fandabby new party ?

    130. Andy Ellis says:

      @Alex Lomax

      Perhaps if it’s built, they will come?

      I mean, it’s not as if the SNP are in any mood or position to bring about a vote in any reasonable time scale is it?

      Many of us don’t think there’s anything to lose by advocating for a new party that will truly fight for independence. It’d be great if SNP members could turn their party around, but more and more people don’t have any faith they will.

    131. Breeks says:

      Beaker says:
      8 August, 2020 at 7:47 pm
      @Me Bungo Pony says:
      8 August, 2020 at 7:33 pm
      “FFS! She’s the most popular politician in Scotland, leading the most popular party in Scotland with the core policy of that party,”….

      So what? Precisely the same thing could be said of Boris Johnson in England, which tends to suggest popularity is a somewhat unreliable yardstick to judge competence and integrity. Are we all to knuckle down to the will of Boris Johnson because he’s popular?

      In the last five years, under the SNP we have abandoned Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, overruled Scotland’s sovereign Remain mandate, ignored multiple mandates for IndyRef2, presented Westminster with a Section 30 veto on Scottish democracy, witnessed Scotland’s colonial subjugation as the will of England is forced upon Scotland while Scotland’s Government capitulated without a fight … but Courage mon braves! …everything is peachy because Nicola Sturgeon is popular???

      You wonder why people feel short-changed? Nicola Sturgeon’s popularity is just a fickle veneer which is hiding some deep rooted failings, strategic ineptitudes, and damaging shortcomings, and what appears to be some damaging association with some very grubby goings on with regards to the smearing of Alex Salmond.

      What people want is honesty and openness, and an achievable strategy to extricate Scotland from this Brexit train wreck, and rotten, perfidious Union. What they’re getting is an unfathomable enigma which shows no initiative, no urgency, no strategy, nor indeed any capacity to defend Scotland’s interests. Nicola Sturgeon can barely bring herself to say the word Independence.

      It just isn’t good enough.

    132. terence callachan says:

      Brian doonthetoon…9.12pm

      At (8) you said
      8. Diehard unionists – apparently, around 25-30% of the Scottish electorate.

      But hang on you cannot be correct

      It’s known that nearly all English people living in Scotland voted NO in 2014
      The Scotsman famously said 500,000 of them were NO voters

      The last census ten years ago showed 550,000 of them living in Scotland the figure will be much higher than that now

      2,100,000 NO votes won the day in 2014
      So almost a quarter of the NO vote are English people living in Scotland

      The YES vote was about 1.6 million
      Total 3.7 million

      So England’s people account for about just over a seventh of the total lest say 14%-15%

      Then you have Scottish folk who are labour voters who are surely a bigger group and Scottish folk who are Tory or Lib Dem voters who are probably a smaller group than the Scottish labour voters
      Both these make up the 40% that added to the 14%-15% gave them their victory
      So I doubt the hardline unionists are just 25%-30%

      I would say all the English who voted NO last time are still hardline unionists why wouldn’t they vote for England .. so there you have 14%-15% perhaps a wee increase since 2014 lets go for 15%

      The 40% I would say is 30% labour 10% Tory and Lib Dem
      Of the 30% labour I would say a third are hardline unionist
      Of the 10% Tory Lib Dem I would say they’re all hardline unionist if they were gonna change they would have by now

      So there we have it in my view 15% + 10% + 10% = 35% hardline unionists

      I see where you are coming from with 25%-30% but everyone underestimates the effect of the huge proportion of English people living in Scotland their regular answer is always that there are just as many Scottish people living in England but what their response disguises is that there is a massive difference in distortion of the local populations wishes taking effect because of

      500,000 English living amongst Scotland’s five million

      500,000 Scottish living amongst England’s FIFTY MILLION

    133. terence callachan says:

      https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/08/07/fixing-the-covid-numbers/

      Here we see that in USA they are lying about the number of covid19 deaths and infections

      It’s almost certain that the U.K. govt have an exact copy of the USA plan of action

      Expect the same lying behaviour when they talk about a vaccine for covid19
      What many people don’t know is that it takes on average about 10 years to develop a vaccine
      Don’t expect a safe workable vaccine for covid19 anytime soon

      But do expect the U.K. govt to copy what the USA govt is doing which is paying huge sums of money to pharmaceutical companies to rush through an untried and properly tested vaccine the dangers of doing this are numerous , terrible side effects , people on placebo taking less precaution thinking they are on the actual vaccine and then getting infected even dying, mass vaccinations that don’t work.

    134. LeggyPeggy says:

      Liz @ 7.22 pm

      Thanks for the link to the National column and the line below from Nicola in the article is the problem with the Snp right now .

      “ So what I would say to my party “

      And that is the problem right there in that line . The party belongs to the members and too many of the officials at the top and that includes Nicola and some of the MPs and MSPs and the NEC committee seem to have forgotten that the party belongs to the members and not them .

      They’re only in their positions because of the members . Too many of them have have lost touch with the ordinary members who they are supposed to represent .

    135. Davie Oga says:

      I would have gone to war for Salmond if it were asked for and required.

      I wouldn’t go to the Spar for Nicola Sturgeon.

    136. jfngw says:

      @Breastplate

      I didn’t say everyone that disagrees with me is a troll, nice trick though, seen it used many a time to try and gain an advantage.

      I watch the content of their comment history, if I find the Daily Telegraph being more positive of things happening in Scotland than they are then I draw my own conclusions. Of course I could be wrong with some and their visceral hatred of NS could be deceiving me.

      I have no affinity with NS, I will support any coherent plan that gains independence, but I want a plan that has a high chance of success. Lets just do it is not a plan, I want a Bannockburn, not a Culloden.

    137. Astonished says:

      I see some former allies are raging at Alyn “daddy bear” Smith. Shoogly nail .

    138. Breastplate says:

      Jfngw,
      I’m not trying to trick anyone. I’m here to give a reasoned and honest opinion of events, I will answer questions and debate earnestly.
      I have no hidden agenda and as I’ve said before do not care who delivers independence for Scotland, that can be Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond, Boris Johnson or the Devil himself, I would however ask that it be in a timely fashion.

      I don’t believe the current SNP plan will deliver independence. My belief is that people who think it will are deluded and are actually a drag on the Yes Movement.

      I would be delighted if I was wrong.

    139. Terry says:

      Davie Oga says:
      8 August, 2020 at 10:56 pm
      I would have gone to war for Salmond if it were asked for and required.

      I wouldn’t go to the Spar for Nicola Sturgeon.

      Ouch!!!

    140. Beaker says:

      @Astonished says:
      8 August, 2020 at 11:10 pm
      “I see some former allies are raging at Alyn “daddy bear” Smith. Shoogly nail.”

      He’s on Twitter saying he has asked the journalist in question to at least change the headline to “better reflect my actual proposals”.

      Talk about digging a bigger hole for yourself…

    141. twathater says:

      Re NS interview in the National I note once again “The SNP leader also said Yessers could be “safely assured” there will be an explicit commitment to a second referendum in the SNP’s 2021 Holyrood manifesto ” with not even a mention or HINT of when this supposed ref would take place

      So there you have it more VAGUE promises and more can kicking just to get another 5 years of power, salary,increased pension whilst ALL the while bozo’s circus freaks devise even more ways to pillage Scotland’s rich resources and OUR citizens SUFFER more indignities and impoverishment but don’t worry queen Nicola has 5 more years in power to enhance her bankbook and CV

      So tell us now SC how your GRAND PLAN is going to be executed NS has just given you and us a great FU

    142. Mialuci says:

      Andy Ellis

      I tend not to bother with idiots that insult me by giving a reply to them, but in your case I will make an exception, first of all you spelt my name wrong, then you call me a plank, then you go on to gibber about something or other.
      So now is your chance, who will you vote for if when the referendum comes and Nicola Sturgeon is still the leader of the SNP, its an easy question to answer, I have voted for the SNP and it never bothered me who was the leader, we all live and we all die, and inbetween human beings actually kill each other, rob each other, call other people names like plank as you do.
      If and when you reply to this, do me a favour show some respect, or don’t bother replying, your lucky, I usually never give people who disrespect me a second chance, so if you use abusive language again, I will not reply, Caesar! Gu Bra

    143. Mialuci says:

      There is no alternative to the SNP, love or hate whoever the leader may be at any given time is ok with me, but do not call yourself an independence supporter if you don’t vote for the only party that can deliver it.
      And as for local elections I have still to come across better candidates than the SNP put foreward because when all is said and done, the scottish unionist leaders do what their masters in london tell them or else they get removed pronto, yes they say they resigned from the leadership for whatever reason they tell us , Mrs Lamont got her p45 when she would not get rid of someone that London wanted rid of, and let me say here, she would have been a great worker for the SNP, alas like many others before her and since, she picked the wrong party when maybe she was young and foolish and the SNP was just a little itch on the unionist backside, if I had chosen labour as my party and they let me down as they have done to many in scotland, I would have joined the SNP but Mrs Lamont chose to stay with them, and I for one am glad that she did, she is much better now that she is not on the frontline, I wish she would join us in the SNP though, but that will not happen cause she stood to often in the scottish parliament and said to many things that where not true, and she new it, labour let her down, used her as the leader in scotland, and when she said no to them, london got rid and sacked her now she is doing good work
      as a labour MSP, but if she might happen to read this I would say to her, please join the SNP, its no shame to admit you where taken in by the labour party in London, a lot of ex/labour voters where, I was fortunate when I was a young man my labour MP got a complaint from me against my local council which was labour controlled, he sent me back a letter which to be blunt, was utter garbage, and the complaint was very minor, but important to me as it was about a job that I was after and a guy got the job ahead of me, he had no skill for the job and I did, I would have bossed a gang of men, he was like me unemployed but his claim to fame was that he used to work in the shipyard, and my claim to fame was that I had worked in the same kind of job for many years, how he could have told men what to do in that job is beyond me, but hey, he was well known to the people that gave him the gig, ( what did you say, jobs for the boys ) well I could not possibly comment ) lol

    144. Mialuci says:

      Right,

      Lets just say for the sake of argument I hated gay people, absolutely hated them and Nicola Sturgeon was gay, what should I do, god please tell me what to do, but wait a minute I know what your thinking dear reader, how can you be a christian and hate someone, well its just a wee story from me, but I am a christian, don’t ask which branch, cause am no tellin ye, na na na na, na.
      But I would vote for the SNP even though the SNP leader was gay, for one reason and one reason only, I want scotland to be free before I die and shuffle off to pastures new Caesar! Gu Bra

    145. Mialuci says:

      Its really amazing, we get a few so called SNP supporters on here commenting about how bad the SNP leadership is, funny then how a lot of scots keep voting for the SNP and its leadership, cause you can’t have one without the other.
      One guy says he has been a member for 40 years and now he is not, I can afford £5 a year, and if he asks me nicely, I will pay his fiver as well lol

    146. Mialuci says:

      I know, this is my last and its important, I can’t remember if I have put this on here before.

      Google…. The Stolen Seas

    147. terence callachan says:

      Mialuci…at 0357hrs you said…..

      There is no alternative to the SNP, love or hate whoever the leader may be at any given time is ok with me, but do not call yourself an independence supporter if you don’t vote for the only party that can deliver it.

      My reply…..I agree , it appears that there are many on WOS who
      will only vote for Scottish independence

      1) If they like the leader of the SNP

      2) if they agree with ALL the legislation PROPOSED by the Scottish government

      3) If the SNP NEC does not include what they term as “woke” people

      4) If a Scottish independence campaign for independence is implemented at the same time that we try to overcome this covid19 epidemic

      5) If ALL children and their parents in Scotland are always happy with their exam results

      6) If Nicola Sturgeon proves she did not start the court case against Alex Salmond

      7) If Nicola Sturgeon proves she is not in favour of Scotland staying in the union

      8) If Nicola Sturgeon is deposed as leader of the SNP

      And I’m quoting here the terms of long-standing regular visitors to this place

      Yes you are right Mialuci..I too wonder who all the people are that are giving SNP
      with their leader Nicola Sturgeon
      The 54% lead they have

      None of the ones referred to I guess

    148. Juteman says:

      @Dan and BDTT.

      If there is only one credible party, they will probably get my list vote. Probable would become certain if led by AS.

    149. Robert Louis says:

      I see from The National, today, that Nicola Sturgeon has been reasserting her desire for Scottish independence. It also states that insyref2 will be in the manifesto.

      Well, that’s all very nice, but should have been done several years ago. Events are moving on at a tremendous pace, and the SNP leadership are still showing themselves to either be woefully out of touch, or just inept. So far ‘behind the curve’.

      The problem is this, even after the election in 2021 (assuming the parliament has not been closed by England), what if De Pfeffle says no?? Will indyref be held, will that be the commitment in the manifesto??

      It is abundantly clear that ‘better together’ is up and running again, with both the blue Tories and red tories (LABOUR) using the exact same phraseology in their moans and press releases about the SNP and independence.

      Westminster is going at it full tilt to neuter the Scots parliament, and like somebody who is living in the past, NS talks of a referendum, following May 2021. That will simply be too late.

      They already have several electoral democratic mandates to act.

      What part of brexit can the SNP not freaking well understand? Scots are furious about it being imposed by England against our wishes, yet the SNP either won’t or simply don’t know how to tap into that anger.

      I want independence before January 1st 2021, not ‘sometime after wards’. That will be too, too late. After that, I think most of us will either make plans, if we can, to move to other countries, or just give up.

      Brexit Scotland will see a mass brain drain. Nobody who is able to make their future in an EU or other country is going to hang around on a vague ‘promise’ that the Scottish Government will ‘aim’ for independence. Brexit ‘britin’ will be like USSR-ruled Poland in 1979. You better start getting used to food and medicine rationing, or even being unavailable. There will be plenty for the elite and wealthy. Are the SNP really going to wait until May 2021 to act???

      NOW is the time to strike, not in 9 months time. For goodness sake, Nicola, wake up.

    150. Walter Jones says:

      March 2017,

      Ms Sturgeon said: “My argument is simply this: when the nature of the change that is made inevitable by Brexit becomes clear, that change should not be imposed upon us, we should have the right to decide the nature of that change.

      “The people of Scotland should have the right to choose between Brexit – possibly a very hard Brexit – or becoming an independent country, able to chart our own course and create a true partnership of equals across these islands.”

      She added: “I hope the UK government will respect the will of this parliament. If it does so, I will enter discussion in good faith and with a willingness to compromise.

      “However, if it chooses not to do so I will return to the parliament following the Easter recess to set out the steps that the Scottish government will take to progress the will of parliament.”

      I wonder how that panned out,,,I wonder if Ms Sturgeon ever did lead Scotland to Independence???

    151. Stuart MacKay says:

      Breeks

      I would go further and say that the popularity contest and the adoption of the presidential presentation of politics is what helped create this mess in the first place. Dissent that potentially challenges the leader is not tolerated. The leader must maintain a tight grip on the rest of the executive so everybody stays “on message” all the time. Anything that makes the leader potentially look bad is swiftly dealt with. Actually governing takes second place to making the leader look good. As a result you end up with a coterie of yessers who pose little challenge to the leader. The cult of personality sucks all the political air out of the room so the leader becomes the party and the party becomes the leader. Among the populace you get people who bind their self-worth to the leader and will broke no disaffection. Sound familiar?

      It’s a form of politics that breeds corruption and ineffectiveness. Instead presentation is all important. You saw it with the war-criminal Blair and it’s alive an kicking in every second rate country today. It’s rather disappointing to see this replicated here.

      All that’s missing are the banners and the statues.

    152. Walter Jones says:

      June 2017 General Election,

      The SNP leader added: “There is too much at stake for Brexit simply to be imposed on Scotland, no matter how damaging it turns out to be. Our future must be decided by us, not for us.

      “Last year’s Holyrood election delivered the democratic mandate for an independence referendum in the event of Brexit, and the recent vote of the Scottish Parliament underlined that mandate.

      “If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that will further reinforce that mandate. And in these circumstances, any continued Tory attempts to block Scotland having a choice – when the time is right and the options are clear – would be democratically unsustainable.”

    153. Walter Jones says:

      Dec 2019 General Election,

      Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands

      “We believe that the best future for Scotland is to be an independent, European nation. Not for its own sake, but because it allows Scotland to become the open, tolerant, inclusive and democratic nation we are determined to build.

      By making all our own decisions here in Scotland, we could end poverty faster, play our full part in tackling the climate emergency, ensure a fair deal for pensioners and create new opportunities for jobs and our economy.

      We have a clear mandate to deliver a new referendum on becoming an independent country, and we are making it clear at this election that next year we intend to offer the people of Scotland a choice over their future.

      To ensure that a referendum is put beyond any legal challenge, before the end of the year, we will demand that the UK Government transfers the necessary powers under the Scotland Act to ensure the decisions about the referendum can be taken by the Scottish Parliament.”

    154. Gullane No 4 says:

      We have the only credible party in Scotland that supports Independence leading the polls by 4/5% for the first time EVER.
      Winning hearts and minds across the nation and making Independence inevitable and led by one of the most charismatic and popular leaders in the world.
      And we have a fringe of dafties and werdios who SAY they want independence trying to sabotage that.

      [shakes head slowly]

    155. Walter Jones says:

      April 2019,

      “Nicola Sturgeon has said she wants to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence by 2021 if the country is taken out of the EU.

      The first minister told Holyrood that she would introduce legislation soon to set the rules for another vote.

      But she indicated that she would need the agreement of the UK government before actually holding a referendum.

      Downing Street has previously said it will not grant a new Section 30 order, which underpinned the 2014 referendum.

      Ms Sturgeon claimed this position was “unsustainable” and challenged her party to increase support and demand for independence”.

    156. Rick H Johnston says:

      Fair comment Walter. And the next step is to replace the Unionist Trolls masquerading as politicians in Holyrood.
      Only a strategy for the list vote will do that.
      Not many things are certain in politics but doing the same thing on the list won’t achieve this.
      My list vote is up for grabs but with a strategy to get us to Independence.

    157. Walter Jones says:

      August 2020,

      “NICOLA Sturgeon has said independence supporters can be “safely assured” of an explicit commitment to indyref2 in the SNP manifesto for next year’s Holyrood election.

      The First Minister also described people questioning her commitment to independence as “bonkers” and confirmed her intention to serve another full-term if elected again in 2021.

      She said the SNP is a “very strong” position and support for independence will continue to grow if “we keep doing right by the people of Scotland”

      I wonder where I have heard that before???

    158. Williey says:

      I have just read the reports of the BBC interview with Nicola Surgeon.

      She comfortable in her position. They or she is the party of government. No time for internal disputes. Challenge would be bonkers. People are worried about their health, their jobs and how they can pay the bills. She intends to be a First Minister for the full term post 2021.

      And it is in the last statement that she exposes the truth when she says that she will be First a Minister for the next five years after 2021. That is exactly what we do not want. We do not want ANOTHER 5 YEARS of devolved government. We want independence!

      And look at Sturgeons words, comfortable, the assumed party of government, with her as the leader of course, with no time for internal differences, with people only interested in their health, jobs and abilities to pay bill and about and about which Queen Nicola and her devolve£ Government can do fuck all about.

      Well here’s a message for the Queen Nic.

      There is a vote of no confidence coming up in the Scottish Parliament and it is possible that your minority SNP government will lose it. That then could occasion an election. Would it bake in another minority or marginal majority SNP government based on current independence opinion polls. Or would the SNP be less popular that it thinks it is and lose seats whilst a new list Independence Party soars.

      I do not want another five years of a devolved Scottish Parliament that is currently having its powers removed, and can do nothing, and I mean nothing about jobs, the economy, and all the big picture stuff reserved to a Tory Westminster Government that we didn’t vote for.

      Nor do I want a party with a leader that at her core commands a corrupt coterie of control. The Cherry disbarment, the outrageous attempt to destroy Alex Salmond, the persecution of journalists, and a party that is now failing in every sphere from education, to the failure to protect social and employment safeguards, to the failure to stop us being dragged out of Europe, it just goes on and on from a party that delivers nothing save paid political jobs to the comfortable and some extreme political wokes. And

      Time for her to step down gracefully

    159. Sharny Dubs says:

      Walter Jones @8:33
      Strong commitment to independence and serve a full term for the next electoral term.
      Is that not just a tad contradictory.

      Haha

    160. Willie says:

      I have just read the reports of the BBC interview with Nicola Surgeon.

      She comfortable in her position. They or she is the party of government. No time for internal disputes. Challenge would be bonkers. People are worried about their health, their jobs and how they can pay the bills. She intends to be a First Minister for the full term post 2021.

      And it is in the last statement that she exposes the truth when she says that she will be First a Minister for the next five years after 2021. That is exactly what we do not want. We do not want ANOTHER 5 YEARS of devolved government. We want independence!

      And look at Sturgeons words, comfortable, the assumed party of government, with her as the leader of course, with no time for internal differences, with people only interested in their health, jobs and abilities to pay bill and about and about which Queen Nicola and her devolve£ Government can do fuck all about.

      Well here’s a message for the Queen Nic.

      There is a vote of no confidence coming up in the Scottish Parliament and it is possible that your minority SNP government will lose it. That then could occasion an election. Would it bake in another minority or marginal majority SNP government based on current independence opinion polls. Or would the SNP be less popular that it thinks it is and lose seats whilst a new list Independence Party soars.

      I do not want another five years of a devolved Scottish Parliament that is currently having its powers removed, and can do nothing, and I mean nothing about jobs, the economy, and all the big picture stuff reserved to a Tory Westminster Government that we didn’t vote for.

      Nor do I want a party with a leader that at her core commands a corrupt coterie of control. The Cherry disbarment, the outrageous attempt to destroy Alex Salmond, the persecution of journalists, and a party that is now failing in every sphere from education, to the failure to protect social and employment safeguards, to the failure to stop us being dragged out of Europe, it just goes on and on from a party that delivers nothing save paid political jobs to the comfortable and some extreme political wokes. And

      Time for her to step down gracefully

    161. Andy Ellis says:

      Sturgeon needs to construct “plausible deniability” to explain why she has failed, and will continue to fail, to deliver the “Gold Standard” indyref2 referendum she and her acolytes have been assuring us is going to happen.

      As others are pointing out above, from the National interiview, we’re now being assured yet another commitment to indyref2 in the 2021 manifesto. So after years of being told it was both certain and imminent, that unionists would somehow be forced to cave in by the strength of our arguments, by the number of our mandates and by moral persuasion, we finally get to the truth.

      We now see that next year’s Holyrood elections are yet another mandate (what’s that…the sixth…seventh..? I’m losing count). The patent Sturgeon brand “indyref delivery counter” (TM) will thereafter be reset to zero, and we start again. Another S30 Order request. Another unionist “But now is not the time, Nicola!” response. More huffing and puffing and righteous anger from the FM. Appeals for just one more push, because after all we need to make sure [Covid-19 is beaten/we have a consistent 60% in the polls/people have seen the effects of brexit no deal/] delete as appropriate.

      If it weren’t so dispiriting it would be comical. Anyone who swallows the gradualist snake oil deserves all the disappointment coming their way.

    162. Willie says:

      Too right Sharny Dubs!

      Another full term, which is 5=years as FM in a DEVOLVED Parliament.

      That’s what she said. Independence, readmission to Europe, a macro plan to get Scotland moving,. No, just the arrogant assumption that she will b3 the leader and that folks will simply vote for her.

    163. Davie Oga says:

      The Sec 30 referendum policy allows the SNP to keep winning elections on the back of soft unionist voters. An all things to all men marketing ploy to keep them in power. It does not deliver independence because it is dependent and conditional by nature.

      Holyrood 2021 will be the same. Maybe there will a different inane, meaningless slogan to replace “Stronger for Scotland”

      I vote for “Scotland means Scotland” and an “Oven ready Sec 30 request”

    164. Me Bungo Pony says:

      Oh give it a rest Andy. You don’t even know what a “gradualist” is going by how you poo poo the scenarios put forward by those you label as such.

      And who would you replace them with? Alex Salmond, the ultimate “gradualist“, who had a referendum he didn’t want forced on him after over five years in power and an outright majority in Holyrood? Joanna Cherry, one of his alleged supporters?

      Frankly, you throw the term “gradualist” at anyone who expresses an opinion that differs from yours. Even if it is only slightly different or actually compatible with it. You have no credibility on this subject.

    165. Walter Jones says:

      Bungo

      Defending the indefensible.

      The Rev gave you the heave ho last week for committing the same offence,,,and yet it still hasn’t deterred you.

      If you are looking for gradualists, then have a peak through the letter box of Bute House,,, you’ll see a couple of prime examples in there

    166. Michael Laing says:

      @Gullane No 4 at 8:25 am says: “We have the only credible party in Scotland that supports Independence leading the polls by 4/5% for the first time EVER.”

      The problem is that the SNP isn’t credible. There’s been zero progress towards independence since 2014, and all Nicola Sturgeon has to offer is the same old failed strategy which has got us – and will continue to get us – nowhere. Clearly, a more effective strategy, and one that isn’t dependent upon Westminster politicians abandoning their commitment to British nationalism, is required. Those of us who want to see independence within our lifetimes are entitled to say, ‘Enough is enough: Nicola, your time is up’.

    167. Scozzie says:

      A commitment is just that – no more no less. Doesn’t mean she has any intention to deliver on it.

      And the real give-away was that she intended to serve her full 5 year term. So that proves, at best, she is only going to fulfill her ‘commitment’ to an indyref at the end of her 5 years.

      Yet another example that power and warming seats are more important to the SNP than delivering independence.

      But what she really should have said in that interview is that the manifesto doesn’t need to have a so called commitment as they plan to honour their 2016 election pledge to hold an indyref in this current parliamentary term.
      …same as it ever was eh!

    168. Davie Oga says:

      Gullane No 4 says:
      9 August, 2020 at 8:25 am
      We have the only credible party in Scotland that supports Independence leading the polls by 4/5% for the first time EVER.
      Winning hearts and minds across the nation and making Independence inevitable and led by one of the most charismatic and popular leaders in the world.
      And we have a fringe of dafties and werdios who SAY they want independence trying to sabotage that.

      This not true. Independence consistently polled a majority between 1999 and 2001 when the SNP were only polling 20 – 30%.

      I think you are on shaky ground referring to people who disagree with a party that put “Flowjob” in a primary school as “weirdos”.

      By the way, the wee Austrian with the funny moustache was “one of the most charismatic and popular leaders in the world” during his time.

    169. Sharny Dubs says:

      Perhaps at the next election when NS is asking for yet another mandate, “we” the electorate should be saying “now is not the time Nicola”

      And vote monster raving looney.

      Any shit is better than this crap

    170. Walter Jones says:

      Unionists give Sturgeon their full support, free prescriptions, free Uni, and all the other freebees and wage settlements you get in Scotland that you don’t get anywhere else in the UK.

      Who doesn’t want that?

      The problem is, all those who vote for Sturgeon are not all that keen on Scottish Independence.

    171. Dan says:

      Juteman says: at 6:40 am

      If there is only one credible party, they will probably get my list vote. Probable would become certain if led by AS.

      One credible Pro-Indy Party standing in most of the regions would be ideal.
      With the limited time available it would certainly simplify the cross nation campaigning message activists can use to inform the electorate.
      That said large Party politics also has inherent issues.
      We can see the machinations of Parties trying to control the selection and vetting processes, parachuting in candidates to areas they have little connection to, and there are party whips which could instruct elected representatives to vote a certain way which could actually be against the interests and wishes of the electorate in the constituency that elected them.

      Scotland is a diverse country with the contrast of the central belt to the more rural countryside areas, and there is a case for having independent local representatives that aren’t controlled by a larger organisation so they are less constrained and better able to serve their constituencies.
      So if it came to it specific Regional Parties could also work as they should be better tailored to their locality.

      Lesley Riddoch has often highlighted that we need more local democracy with the communities better empowered to serve the needs of their areas.
      Centralised control works for some aspects with economies of scale and regulations, but utterly fails in other areas so communities are effectively left without assistance, or the residents take it upon themselves to carry out the tasks the Councils should be doing.
      So regardless of whether Indy happens soon, it would still be a step in the right direction to have representatives in our Administrations that were more beholden to their constituents rather than Parties.

    172. Stuart MacKay says:

      Barrheadboy says “my money is on a United Ireland first!”
      https://www.barrheadboy.com/the-final-push/

      As is typical, he plants a mischievous seed by saying:

      “England for its entire history has never been an independent nation. It has always needed other countries to support it.”

      Come on England, time to stand on your own two feet.

    173. Juteman says:

      It would be good if someone has worked out the percentage needed in each region to gain a seat. Folk are talking about 25% of SNP voters lending their vote to a new list party.
      I just can’t see that happening. I think getting 10% would be around the maximum. Would that be enough?

    174. Andy Ellis says:

      @Bungo

      If ever there was an unwelcome return to BTL discourse on here it’s yours. It’s a shame Stu never blocked your excuse for a contributions permanently after your last outburst.

      We all know what gradualists are bud. We all see what they’re doing.

      Whether I have credibility on the matter I’ll leave it for others to decide. There again I’m not the one without the courage to post under my own name am I? I’m also not the one that got warned by Stu the other day for coming on here opining that Wings was no longer a pro-indy site.

      I certainly won’t be taking any moral lessons from a pusillanimous gradualist shill like you tho’!

    175. Andy Ellis says:

      @Juteman

      Just look at past Holyrood election results. “Minor” party candidates frequently gain list seats on 5-7% of the vote: look at the results for Greens, Margo McDonald, SSP, the Pensioner Party.

      Gavin Barrie did the maths some time ago and posted it on here and on twitter. The idea that it will all be a dismal failure and that new list only parties are for the birds à la James Kelly & his clueless ilk, is simply for the birds.

      It’s eminently possible that a Wings backed party, or even more so a Salmond based party could attract enough votes for MSP’s in virtually every region. The only sure thing we can say is: if we don’t try, we won’t get.

    176. Effijy says:

      Bojo says we have a moral responsibility to ensure English kids return
      To school next month.

      So says the man who has no morals, the man leading the party
      That has been chopping the education budget for the last 10 years.

      Some schools in England close Friday at Noon as that is as far as their
      Budget can stretch.

      Laughed at Patel funding a new spy to find out about
      Illegal migrant crossings?

      Does he stalk anyone with an inflatable looking for an opportunity to
      Puncture them with a giant pin fired out of his Aston Martin?

      The French as Bojo for an extra £30 Million if they are to help stop these crossings?
      Why on earth would the French not be happy to see such a drain on their resources
      Move out of the EU and in to England?

      If I were Macron, I’d be handing out free ferry tickets.

    177. willie says:

      To those who unswervingly think that Nicola Sturgeon has the God given right to rule and that the SNP will walk any election as the natural party for Scotland then they need to think again.

      The membership and the wider independence vote is disillusioned with the current SNP leadership position.

      Scotland has been dragged out of Europe, it has a hostile Westminster Government poised ready to destroy the Scottish Parliament, the SNP have become a party corrupted by power where the ruling coterie rig vetting and selection of candidates, where even education, a key policy is mismanaged, and where independence is off the cards – for as Nicola Sturgeon has just admitted for another five years or full term of the Scottish Parliament, which she assumes she will lead.

      Well think not. There is a vote of confidence coming. The minority SNP government might not win it, the Greens might abstain, as might some retiring MSPs.

      The truth about the Salmond Affair may emerge despite the FM governments every attempt to stymie the will of parliament to enquire into the murky business.

      A new party may emerge and as became apparent last week tens of thousands of members may leave.

      Time Nicola cut the arrogance, she is not invincible and her corrupt control of the party is coming to an end. She may try to burn the house down, or threaten it, but the independence movement is stronger than her and her select band of apparatchiks.

    178. Polly says:

      Stuart MacKay says:

      ‘Anything that makes the leader potentially look bad is swiftly dealt with.‘

      I agreed with all the rest of your above post except this one sentence. Yes, this was tried and worked for a while, but ultimately failed and will continue to fail now the facade is starting to crumble, I think that’s why she’s developed a bit of the haunted Tony Blair look in her eyes recently. She knows she’s failed and has limited space or time to change. And her downfall is precisely because of her policies and her own way of doing things which you just encapsulated in your post above. That one sentence has been wrong for a while though since she’s been shown up badly since the abusive way the TRAs have behaved on social media proved her failure to deal with them. It’s been like that what? a couple of year now at least and has shown her as either complicit or not the strong leader with integrity folk thought her.

      She’s made so many errors along the way and all her own choices. She jumped on women’s issues first with equal cabinet, boards etc., since she believed Salmond wasn’t popular enough with that demographic. Then jumped on the youth bandwagon trying to give them all she thought they wanted, lots of seats/affiliates in party to guide it, GRA etc. She jumped to defence of EU citizens since she thought that would get everyone over to yes and made promises she couldn’t keep, but keeps promising in the hope it will work if she hangs on long enough. Now it’s the covid thing and guiding us through that, again hanging on for grim death in the belief all of Scotland will be behind her eventually.

      But with each new facet she’s chosen to focus on and demographic she’s tried to help she’s often alienated the one championed before it. Women’s representation through all women shortlists annoyed many men, the Self ID being pushed terrified women, EU citizens felt let down and some covid sheilding folk I know were annoyed already when the Scottish border wasn’t shut, but there were reports Wales was more active in trying to do that than she was. And of course anything that goes wrong with covid handling will be all at her door since she’s chosen to take such a visible lead. Strategically she’s been so very inept all along the way. People talked about her one issue focus on covid to exclusion of all else, but really, in a way, that seems to be her modus throughout.

    179. Liz says:

      @Walter Jones another faux pas from NS , it’s not the will of the parliament but the will of the people.

      Does she even understand the sovereignty if the people?

    180. Alec Lomax says:

      Liz – how do the people express their sovereignity ?

    181. Alec Lomax says:

      Willie – This new emerging party better get its skates on: there’s an election next year.

    182. Stuart MacKay says:

      Polly

      A very interesting observation and you’re absolutely right (I was thinking more about the trail of bodies on the road with the bus tyre tracks all over them).

      It’s doubly interesting as possibly all the “now is not the time” comments about the questions on the suitability of the SNP to lead us to independence makes me think that a lot of other people see this too.

      Thanks.

    183. susan says:

      NS is on a shoogly peg. She has proven dictatorial in her determination to push unpopular policies, yet strangely absent when it comes to reining in her minions as they rampage across social media with impunity. Guess they suit her purpose, or is she just frightened they’ll turn on HER?

    184. Rm says:

      An interview with Campbell one of the biggest unionist supporters, typical english establishment tactics to influence the population, why suddenly at this time just when people are beginning to question the SNP government, why didn’t Nicola stand up herself and say something regarding independence at Holyrood.

    185. Liz says:

      The people express their sovereignty through voting. We have lent the SNP our sovereignty because they promised to give us a choice between indy and Brexit. We voted 62% remain in the EU. The SNP led government have abused our sovereignty.

      It’s still the will of the people not the will of the government who have ignored our wishes

    186. TJenny says:

      Rm – ‘An interview with Campbell’. Campbell who and when and what was said?

    187. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Juteman at 9:53 am.

      You typed,
      “It would be good if someone has worked out the percentage needed in each region to gain a seat. Folk are talking about 25% of SNP voters lending their vote to a new list party.
      I just can’t see that happening. I think getting 10% would be around the maximum. Would that be enough?”

      I’ve already done it for NE Scotland, Mid Scotland & Fife and Central Scotland. I also looked at the possible number of Pro-Indy MSPs if 100%, 90%, 80% and 70% of the SNP list vote in Central Scotland had moved to a Pro-Indy party in the 2016 election.

      Have a look at this link and the following comments.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/quarantine/comment-page-3/#comment-2549419

    188. Davie Oga says:

      Despite the many good people in the SNP, the centralised control, the Ceau?escu like hubby and wife team, and the top down diktats are very disturbing. Robin MacAlpine’s article the other day demonstrated the state of the play quite succinctly.

    189. TJenny says:

      BDTT – thanks, couldn’t hear the sound and only caught a glimpse of some slightly sweaty, baldy man at the beginning, but didn’t recognise him.

    190. kapelmeister says:

      Enough Scots now support independence to make it happen. With the right leader the SNP would be currently forging ahead with Yes allies towards securing a second and eminently winnable indyref.

      The right leader would be currently making sure that Scotland’s democratic deficit of forced EU exit and stripping of devolution powers remained incandescent topics with the Scottish people. The right leader would be striving daily to
      articulate the fears and frustrations most Scots feel at the vile treatment we are experiencing as a nation.

      Instead we see Sturgeon preferring to acclimatise Scots to the union under Johnson and postponing the fight for independence to some distant and unspecified future date.

      This politician poseur prefers to devote energies to polishing a presidential image whilst her cronies assist her in viciously derailing honest opponents within the SNP.

      Go she must.

    191. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi TJenny.

      You have to unmute the sound on the video.

    192. Willie says:

      Alex Lomax @ 10.36am

      ” This new emerging party better get its skate on ” you say because there’s an election next year.

      Don’t know what your concern is. There’s an Indy list party ready to go. So no hurry. In fact even if there was an election later this year, there’s plenty of time.

      But in any event what we want is a strong SNP, on message, commited to independence, with as an adjunct, a list only Indy party to give a super majority.

      Plenty of support for both a reformed SNP and a list party. Don’t you think so.

    193. TJenny says:

      BDTT – Och, I did, and had it up full but couldn’t hear it. Anyway it wasn’t Alistair Campbell, so that’s something. 😉

    194. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Glenn Campbell (BBC).

    195. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Walter Jones 9:18am
      The Rev gave you the heave ho last week for committing the same offence,,,and yet it still hasn’t deterred you“.

      Not to my knowledge he didn’t. If that was the case, how am I able to post now? Are you just making stuff up …. again?

      You won’t be happy till independence is a forgotten dream, will you Walter.

    196. Tartanpigsy says:

      @BDTT 11.17am Extremely patronising tone to everyone of us calling out the “slow boat to Indy” strategy on that clip.
      Well noted by another comment above how Nicola uses the same excuse re COVID that she did while fighting AHEM Brexit, how voters would be dissapointed if we were distracted by the teeny wee marginal issue that has been the raison retreat of the SNP since it’s inception.
      Extremely painful watch. The fact she mimmicks AS’s delivery style in interviews just compounds things for me.
      It will be a massive betrayal once we hit 31/12/20 without a whiff of action to protect Scots of all hues from the car crash that will follow.

    197. TJenny says:

      BDTT – Jings. Time hasn’t been kind to him, has it.

    198. Grouse Beater says:

      Hello again, Chris.

      Sorry for not being in touch of late but I’ve been ‘indisposed’, as this weekend’s essay explains:

      The Scottish Health Service’: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-p0Z



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