The Handmaiden’s Tale
It should now be abundantly clear to any rational person that time has very nearly run out to avoid a no-deal Brexit.
Theresa May has been sent swiftly home from Europe with a skelped arse and told that any further negotiation is out of the question. But she’s insisted that the meaningful vote in the UK parliament on her Brexit deal won’t now happen before Christmas, which in practical terms means before mid-January.
That means that if Labour wait until the deal is thrown out before they call a vote of no confidence – which is their current position, so far as anyone can tell what their position is – then by the time the government falls it’ll already be February.
(Under the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act, after a successful VoNC there are 14 days for someone to try to form an alternative administration before an election is called.)
Add in the six weeks minimum that are required for an election campaign and you’re halfway through March, literally just a few days before the UK will automatically crash out of the EU with no deal.
Even if a couple of months extension of Article 50 were to be granted – and we’re not sure who’d be asking by that stage – that’s plainly nowhere near enough time for a new government to come up with anything the EU would agree to.
(Remember that the withdrawal agreement was supposed to be done and dusted by October in order to give the EU six months to ratify it. Their patience with the UK is plainly at an end, and it’s hard to see them agreeing to drag the whole mess out for another year or more, which would be the realistic timescale.)
“And that’s all very well”, readers might be thinking at this point, “but that’s a picture of Kezia Dugdale, an insignificant backbench Holyrood list MSP. What the bloody hell’s it got to do with her?”
And the answer is that it’s all her fault.
No, really, bear with us on this.
The reason Labour haven’t called a vote of no confidence yet, and probably won’t, is that they want Brexit, but they don’t want to be the government when it happens. Jeremy Corbyn, quite rationally for a man who’s always wanted out of Europe, wants to take over shortly afterwards, on a platform of sorting out the Tories’ giant mess and building a great socialist utopia etc, but without the stigma of being the one who was holding the Brexit baby when it took a catastrophic dump all over the British economy.
The result of the 2017 election, in which the Tories were left crippled but just barely clinging onto the doorframe of Downing Street, was the perfect outcome for Corbyn in that respect. Had he actually become Prime Minister he couldn’t possibly have stalled for a year and a half without taking a position one way or the other. And had the Tories won with a decent majority they could probably have forced something through. But a stalemate gave him exactly what he wanted.
And how did the Tories end up with just enough MPs to form a government but not enough that it had the power to do anything? Because they unexpectedly got 13 seats in Scotland, up from the previous tally of 1. And that happened because of this:
Just days before the election, Dugdale – as explicitly as she could ever practically do – told voters in the Borders, Highlands and North-East that voting Tory was a better way to stop the SNP than voting for her own party’s candidates, even though Theresa May had said the same day that her government was on a knife-edge:
Unionist voters duly took Dugdale’s advice (not just in that one Sky News interview but underpinning Labour’s entire campaign in Scotland), returning a clutch of new Tory MPs in those exact regions, who were just enough to enable Theresa May to cobble together a Parliamentary majority with the help of the DUP.
Scottish Labour activists even now often try to furiously deny that Dugdale did what everyone saw her do (“She didn’t literally say the exact words ‘vote Tory’, so it doesn’t count!”), but the truth has a way of coming out.
(This site had of course warned in advance of the danger, to no avail.)
And to make sure nobody was left in any doubt, Scottish Labour and the media trumpeted the election result – in which Labour had come a distant THIRD and seen Scotland’s anti-Tory contribution to the House Of Commons arithmetic reduced from 58 to 46 – as a massive triumph:
But what if Labour hadn’t run a campaign focused solely on beating the SNP? What if the Tory gains had all stayed SNP and Theresa May hadn’t been able to scrape up some sort of almost-functional government?
Dugdale, of course, would have been mortified. Bitterly opposed from the beginning to Corbyn’s leadership of her party, she’d have been fuming if he’d been the person to actually deliver a Labour government.
But nevertheless, the Parliamentary Labour Party which could have taken control at that point – backed by the pro-Europe SNP and Lib Dems and still full of pro-Remain “moderate” Labour MPs – would have been able to exert huge pressure on Corbyn to bring about, at the very least, the softest Brexit possible.
(The Tories would have had just 305 MPs. The combined strength of Labour, the SNP and the Lib Dems would have been 321 – an effective majority with backing from Plaid Cymru (4) and the Greens (1) plus the absence of the seven MPs of Sinn Fein.)
Instead, Dugdale’s futile determination to destroy the vile Nats – and deny the Scottish people the second vote that she now indignantly demands over the EU – let the Tories sneak in through the back door and left the country where it is now: rocketing down a tunnel towards a no-deal brick wall, with no visible exits and no brakes.
Those of us who follow politics in Scotland, of course, have long known that Scottish Labour prefer even the most disastrous UK Tory government to any independent Scottish one. Normally it’s only Scotland that pays the price. But in just a few weeks’ time, barring some sort of unforeseen miracle, the whole of the UK is going to feel the full force of that blind tribal hatred as it slams into reality.
If we were Kezia Dugdale, we’d be praying that they didn’t look too closely into who it was who ultimately brought them there.
Since she got the heave and the Duracell Bunny is now Branch Manager, some people have been reqriting history to portray Ms Dugdale as either a victim or a well-meaning nitwit. She was neither, as this article shows. She was Theresa May’s Little Elf, and if there were any fairness in the world she’d have been in Brussels helping her boss.
Too right!
Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh was elected for Ochil and South Perthshire, but Labour hated the SNP so much they put up a no-hoper in a seat Martin O Neil once held for Labour , in the full knowledge that they were gifting the seat to the Tories. O Neill now sits in the Lords a Lord O Neill of Clackmannan
Not to mention that in a number of electorates where SLAB was in third place in the running SLAB activists abandoned their candidate and actually went out and gleefully canvassed for the Blue Tories.
NEVER trust a Red Tory, they are Blue and Yellow Tory enablers. It’s a very great pity hell doesn’t exist because there should be a special hell for such people. Probably boiled in oil while being gleefully lectured by Alex Salmond tag teaming it with Jim Sillars.
Of course way too convoluted for Kezia to have thought of this as a plan but Kezia by being a Div thicko contributed to the neverending string of thicko Labour thinking which often leads to stumbling Labour government, but privately I guess you’ve given her something she can congratulate herself for, after all Kezia is autonomous
They told her she could say that
Roll up Roll up £6.29 to go on holiday to Europe.
And that’s the start!!
Brill!
The EU says ~MayBaaaaaaad.
How will that be spun to actually mean SNPBaaaaaaad?
Can’t wait.
Can’t fault the reasoning here.
It is to be hoped that this article receives widespread circulation and reading.
The nebulous and imprecise windbag Theresa May, is currently giving a speech in Brussels, which appears to be mostly nebulous and imprecise.
Kezia Dugdale and Ken Macintosh,
(not to mention the entire shower of other equally “useful” red tory idiots),
Your services to the British Establishment will not be forgotten. Your places in history are assured. 🙂
What’s happening with the Campbell court case against Dugdale?
So if Scotland does win her Independence back sometime soon you could arguably say that Kezia Dugdale delivered if for us.
Thanks Kezia. 🙂
As I’ve often said before on these forums, why are people here so upset by Brexit? I mean seriously, Indy supporters should be on their hands and knees thanking God for Brexit.
The Tories are in open civil war. The Commons is a mess, the country is divided, and Scottish Indy is the smart option. We will never get this free pass again.
I voted to Leave the EU, and as much as I despise it, I’d take an Independent Scotland in the EU tomorrow, if it were offered.
This chaos has presented a golden opportunity for Scottish Indy, and had we not had Brexit, we’d be back at 2014 levels: a holding pattern at 45% support, with Unionists beating us with the Spanish Veto stick, and you lot would be wasting valuable time and energy trying to dispute it, even though it never worked in 2014.
If Sturgeon could get off the fence sometime soon, and seize the day, we’d all be laughing.
“A statesman cannot create anything himself. He must wait and listen until he hears the steps of God sounding through events; then leap up and grasp the hem of His garment.”
– Otto Von Bismarck
She’ll no be enjoying Xmas very much, what with certain legal fees in the offing, especially since Jezza cut her off from party funds.
Still staggered at the collaboration between the three Britnat parties in the last election. Fuckwittery went to new and greater heights etc. We are where we are because of mindless hatred and tribalism.
One look. One objective look at that house on the Thames and it’s usual head office inhabitants by any reasonable human being should be all it takes. May or Corbyn was the bottom line. I mean FFS!
There isn’t a leader in the place. Not one, in either of the usual suspect’s parties. There’s only a power for powers sake struggle between party policies you couldn’t put a fag paper between. Their ideals, ethics? We’re working molecular levels of difference at that point. As for their practice of politics and what they’ve both done to the populations of the UK? What they’ve done to gain their preciousss, preciousss, power? Neither are fit to lead or govern.
They’ve both legislated to put their own people in harms way for personal advantage or benefit. They’ve both smeared, lied, misled, manipulated and misrepresented because, ‘that’s politics’, ‘rough n’ tumble’, ‘it’s a dirty ol’ game’ and …reasons.
They didn’t give a shit what it did to the populations of the UK. They didn’t care about turning neighbour against neighbour. They didn’t care about undermining trust in just about any service or institution you care to mention. They simply didn’t care. The win was and is everything. Whatever it takes, right?
Well have a good look at the end result of the whatever it takes mentality today folks. Take a good long hard look at the UK’s politics, society and it’s economy. Mean spirited and isolationist are probably the only two descriptions I’d get away with typing for what we’re looking at. No, it’s not pleasant and it WILL get a lot worse.
The current omnishambles is on both of them. Conservative and Labour alike. No amount of airtime and essenpee baddery can alter the fact that only one source could have brought this shitshow to our front doors and no others need apply.
I’m for using the very next opportunity at a ballot to thank the ugly twins of politics in the appropriate fashion. And hopefully to say goodbye to them, their rank wee howf and everything it stands for. 😎
Luigi says:
14 December, 2018 at 1:41 pm
What’s happening with the Campbell court case against Dugdale?
Rev Stu sleeps soundly at night, whilst Kezia’s bowels haven’t produced anything solid for weeks!
No its not. If you are rewriting history its Lord george Cumnock who took her in and taught her all he knew thats responsible.:)
Their was almost a Weir principle inevitability about Kezia falling in with the SNPout nonsense. The anger and frustration at the SNP success boiled over into the most extreme political form of my enemy’s enemy is my friend. Foresight and logic were not consulted.
I don’t know if we will achieve independence but if we don’t and end up stuck in a no deal UK then that falls to our Better Together choooms. No ifs or buts.
Most of them should be put in jail. Dragged off the street to support May. What a shower of absolute losers. A bunch of craven liars. It would never have happened but for their criminal actions and lies.
Hopefully some of the electorate will have woken up by now.
Macart says:
14 December, 2018 at 2:02 pm
Still staggered at the collaboration between the three Britnat parties in the last election’
You are right Macart, they did, but the SNP instead of taking them on in their ‘NO Surrender to another Referendum’ re-run of Better Together and giving it all about Independence, decided to go for the managerial ‘steady as it goes’ tack of good governance meme
It was not the time for that narrative, true as it was. It was insipid and unispired and guess what…half a million SNP voters either didn’t vote or switched somewhere else. An own goal aided and abetted by the vicious and spiteful Dugdale. BTW are there still innocents on here who still think she would be a great recruit to the SNP?
Donald Urquhart
That is an alternative commentary on the legal case that I had not read before.
All true.
However, the SNP also bear the blame for the absolute shambles of trying to repeat the campaign of 2015, with the result that half a million voters did not vote SNP. The SNP made it easier for the Tories and their Labour / LibDem Unionist allies.
The Unionists work together. For the SNP, it’s the SNP way is the only way, with no independence alliance or cooperation with the Scottish Greens or others who support indy but aren’t SNP.
The SNP 2017 campaign was: vote SNP to send MPs to WM, as a strong voice for Scotland at WM.
Those, like me, who voted SNP and in 2015 and in 2017 saw sending SNP MPs to WM achieved NOTHING. Their task was and remains impossible, no matter how talented and industrious.
The SNP should be standing on a ticket for indy every time. A pro-WM camgpaign was total garbage. Scotland can NEVER have a strong voice at Westminster. It’s completely rigged so it’s alway: UK wins / Scotland loses. So why pretend?
Like devolution, the whole design of the UK is to ALWAYS PREVENT Scotland from having her voice respected. ALWAYS subjugated to the will of the UK, which is mainly England’s Tories.
The ONLY way Scotland’s voice will ever be respected is by leaving WM, ending the Union, and having a real government. One not subject to devolution power stripping at the whim of UK Parliament. A real government, not the subservient pretend one we have now.
Scotland needs independence NOW.
What’s that big thing drawing ever closer to you England???
Of course,,,, it’s the buffers st the end of the line.
CRASH!!!
New questions to add to – Has Mundell resigned yet?
Has McIntosh apologised yet?
Has Dugdale apologised yet?
Has Tomkins apologised yet.
Don’t hold your breath for any of them as all of them are hardcore Britnats who always lie and cheat. British Nationalists who care nothing for the land they live in other than to rename Scotland North Britain.
Independence supporters who think Dugdale might embrace independence are kidding themselves on. There is a better chance of the Daily Mail campaigning for an independent Scotland.
Dr Jim@1.21 pm
“After all Kezia is autonomous. They told her she can say that” – classic comment. LOL
360,000 Scots children starving because Dugdale exhorts Labour supporters to back the Blue Tories for another 5 years.
No heart, no brain, no conscience.
Big del says:
14 December, 2018 at 1:24 pm
Aye, 7 Euros… £6.29 today, probably more than £7 by the time the fee kicks in 🙁
I agree someway to your analysis but I don’t feel Corbyn, had he had the majority, would have been capable or able to deliver a soft Brexit given his own views on the EU which apparently was/is in tune and the main stream Labour voters who were stupidly demanding to leave. In all other respects I concur.
No forgetting Davidson’s part in it. The Tories should not be in Holyrood. They want to shut it down.
Someone who stays in England but registers their kids in a house rented out in Scotland are committing fraud. It should be totally clear from the council tax declaration that they do not live there. The uni administration should be checking up on parents addresses. From the application forms. They have to live in Scotland for three years before they are ledgible for uni fees and loans.
People who lived abroad, but were home did not qualify. So how can someone living elsewhere qualify?
Awkward question : Why do 10 DUP MPs have more power and influence than 13 Scottish Tory MPs ?
No idea why Labour, Conservative, and Lib Dem didn’t shut up shop in Scotland after 2014 and merge to form a Scottish Unionist Party, dedicated to opposing the SNP and supporting whatever government was in power at Westminster. They’d have won the majority of seats in Westminster and at Holyrood in the last couple of elections, and they might actually have done some small good by extorting DUP-style bribes in return for their support.
There is literally no point any more to the British nationalist vote being split in three. It’s just a vanity, a forlorn hope that things will one day go back to a pre-2014 ‘normal’.
Those days are gone, Scottish unionists. Swallow your differences and unite over your mutual hatred of self-determination. You know you want to.
Given that the Constitution is a reserved matter for the UK Parliament, and given that Holyrood is a devolved agent/instrument of the UK Parliament and must act within the devolved competences, would it ever be possible then for MSPs in Holyrood to create a Bill to Dissolve the Union in the first place and then to have a vote on it with a confirmatory plebiscite afterwards (as some have suggested)?
Thoughts?
A wee snippet about the “dirty tricks at the crossroads” i.e. the Tories sneaking an amendment through the House of Lords which deligitimised the Continuty Bill. Lord Advocate not amused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrCwY53UFSg
Proud Cybernat @ 3.36
That’s the main question when it comes to our actual route out if there’s an uncooperative Westminster.
Some say that our Sovereignty is held/exercised by the Scottish Westminster MPs!
And others say that because Holyrood is directly elected by Scots that’s now where our Sovereignty is now
There’s pros and cons with each view…. we are probably going to need a combination of the two…
@ColinAlexander
Scots must inevitably bite the bullet and tear themselves away from the ‘comfort zone’ of this off-shore pseudo-nation which even in the best of times, during its active membership of the EU, never truly gave itself to the founding principles of the European project.
Viewed from the European mainland Brexit is not just a political mess it is also the consequence of a perception that the British were ‘slumming it’ in their rather detached association with the EU. as if in the expectancy of something better turning up. That something was the notional conceit of the fabulous Anglosphere. Fox and Gove had a thing about that.
However, Trump, the indifference of the ‘white anglosaxon’ commonwealth and the grim reality that the world cared little for Britain’s past glories or its mythic exceptionalism has effectively put a stop to that.
Even if Brexit were scrapped the UK might find the 27, pour encourager les autres, less indulgent of those exceptionalist eccentricities.
I believe Rev Stu is 100% correct. The Britnats were devastated by the 2015 result where they were left with one seat each here.
Remember too, the 2017 GE was against a background where the SNP were openly talking about an IndyRef2.
The BritNats clearly decided to ‘share the burden’ and run zero campaigns with paper candidates to allow another BritNat to win.
In Ochil we received virtually no Labour literatue, there was no one in the street, no public meetings, no one had heard of their candidate. Result … enough labour voters switched to the Tories to let Swindon resident and general carpet bagger Luke Graham win.
The decision by Labour to ‘stand back’ where Tories stood a chance is why we are where we are i.e. May still has a majority, of sorts.
Proud Cybernat@3.36pm
It needs a majority of Scottish MPs to declare at Westminster the Treaty is over, the UK is ended. and that Scottish sovereignty now rests at Holyrood. Simple if our representatives have the people behind them and the strength of will to stand up to Westminster.
What the UK Guv have just done is demonstrate they can at any time rewrite any law they choose at any time, get royal assent and remove any future attempts at any kind of change in Scotland in effect strangling the Scottish parliament at will
I’m shocked and totally amazed that our bastions of truth and justice the great Scottish press have decided in their infinite wisdom NOT to inform the totality of the Scottish electorate that they’ve become less than second class citizens now and if you believe it possible reduced to the status of serfdom
Then again sometimes our great Scottish press and media forget or mistakenly don’t report information like that on the grounds of *reasons*
Of course a large portion of the Scottish electorate would support that position perhaps until it becomes clear to them that behaviour like that has happened before in another country in the 1930s however this information is difficult to find as it’s CONCEALED within BOOKS, again which that part of the population who support this kind of behaviour tend not to access until it’s they who are being asked to breathe deeply
The SNP politicians should not support a second EU referendum in Westminster for the simple reason that they bear allegience to the Sovereignty of the Scottish people and not the sovereignty of parliament.
The English people discovered their sovereignty by voting against the will of their MPs. If the SNP MPs were to support a second EU referendum they would be confirming that the sovereignty of parliament takes precedence over the sovereignty of the English people. Belief in the sovereignty of a people is absolute whoever those people are.
If they do vote for parliamentary sovereignty how can they complain when Scotland’s sovereignty is denied when we make our bid for a second Indy Referendum?
Instead we should be campaigning for Independence and not get sucked into English constitutional matters. History is full of states born out of the chaos of the state of which they were once part . Scotland’s time will be soon and when you least expect it.
@Cubby
“It needs a majority of Scottish MPs to declare at Westminster the Treaty is over, the UK is ended.”
Well, as LizG said, this is one view. Let’s suppose you’re right – how would/could that practically be brought about at WM? Surely to have a vote on something at WM a Bill first needs to be introduced and must get the support of the incumbent Gov – which I suspect it won’t. Only other way I can see is a Private Member’s Bill being introduced but, even if it were to get through all the various stages at WM without being fillibustered out (strong possibility) and got to a vote, how could it possibly obtain a majority at WM when our Scottish MPs are outnumbered 10:1?
RMF Brown @ 13:46,
Well quoted. Bismarck was the supreme “mover and shaker”. He might as well have been the originator of the saying “never let a good crisis go to waste”.
We really need a touch of that kind of genius now. Given the evident uselessness of the leadership of both main UK parties, it ought to be a pushover.
@ Proud Cybernat
Don’t hold-hold-your-breath. That would take leadership and the ability to think-outside-the-box.
May is a positive asset for the Indy cause! Her contribution will be noted in history books.
“Unprofessional’ May alienated European leaders with summit dinner speech”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/unprofessional-may-alienated-european-leaders-with-summit-dinner-speech-1.3731409
BREAKING: “FORMER First Minister Alex Salmond has secured a legal victory ahead of his case against the Scottish Government over the handling of harassment allegations.The government will be forced to fully reveal emails and notes relating to the sexual harassment claims made against him.”
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17299645.legal-victory-for-alex-salmond-ahead-of-case-against-scottish-government/
Foot n mouth…
https://i.imgur.com/2nb4502.jpg
@Proud Cybernat
Right on the ball there PC. Nana will have to watch. 🙂
These court cases are like buses nothing then three come along together. Oh the Dugdale bus due too!
Proud Cybernat@4.15pm
I never said it needs a majority vote at Westminster. A majority of SCOTS MPs have the sovereignty of the Scottish people. If we assume The leader of the SNP has a mandate and a majority of Scottish MPs why do we need to use the Parliament of Westminsters rules to end same parliament. We don’t – it just needs people to throw off the cringe and act as an independent nation. MPs should then leave them to recreate the Parliament of England.
@Dr Jim
Not only outstanding that the MSM is uninterested in the repercussions of the SC vote but are actively making sure they are not discussed.
We now have the position that English MP’s can now legislate and over-rule Scottish elected representatives but Scottish MP’s cannot even vote on English matters.
We have three political parties and pretty much the entire MSM working to further the interests of England and denigrate Scotland’s position.
It would hard to find outside a totalitarian state a media that so actively works against the people of the country which it reports on. Of course it is not surprising in the fact that all these organisations are based in England and the people here are merely the pawns of control.
I could only imagine the outcry in the press if the EU after the A50 letter had referred it to ECJ then changed the rules about leaving to make the A50 letter invalid.
And we in Angus got Kristen Hair who had never demonstrated an independent thought. Backed the withdrawal deal on the premise that it was what voters wanted despite the fact that her constitutents voted remain, backed May in the vote of no confidence. I hope the fishing and farming voters rememberer
@Greannach says: 14 December, 2018 at 1:15 pm
” … She was Theresa May’s Little Elf, and if there were any fairness in the world she’d have been in Brussels helping her boss.”
Yep! And I have been telling it true here on Wings for years that there is really only one unionist party at Westminster and that is how it always has been. That party is the Westminster Establishment of English Nationalists.
Yes there are several faction within the Westminster Establishment and it is far bigger than the parliamentary group. Including the civil service, armed forces and the financial sector but when their precious union comes under threat they all stand shoulder to shoulder against the common foe.
On the United Kingdom getting involved in war the first thing that happens is Her Majesty calls in someone and commands them to form a cross-party war cabinet and the Establishment swings into action.
British nationalist hatred towards Scotland is ingrained in people like Dugdale.
Macart 2.02pm Sam you have very eloquently just described the REAL situation of what passes for politicians in the yookay, we SNP voters in Scotland are well aware of liebours rank hypocrisy and corruption , we have suffered it for so long .
The only addition I will add to your post is we cannot exclude or forget about the wee yellow bellies or bellends ( cough ) we have to give them their fair share of blame .
Then there is the greatest destroyer of democracy in this country , the fabled MSM , THOSE WHO WOULD EXPOSE the charlatans, the corruption, the liars and cheats , the people who are wantonly killing our citizens through poverty and homelessness, yet instead of exposing these bastards and their Co conspiritors they actively support their policies and effects by giving them photo opportunities to smile at food banks they have created
In Scotland these tractors will not be forgotten and their willing complicity in ignoring and falsifying their actions will be remembered
jfngw @ 16:49:
That’s it in a nutshell. It’s manifestly one-sided and humiliating.
This is beyond everyday party politics. No-one with any self-respect, who could reasonably regard themselves as “proud”, could possibly accept this as in any way acceptable.
@Proud Cybernat 4.29pm
Oh my that’s going to upset some applecarts in the halls of the Scotland office
Alyn Smith …. ” … our only options are simple: leave with this deal or remain. I will not even dignify ‘no deal’ as an option. Scotland voted for remain.”
https://www.alynsmith.eu/scotland_in_europe_update_14th_december_2018
An extension to article 50 will not be a problem either for a General Election or a 2nd referendum. The EU have made that clear already and numerous times.
The length of ant extension will be as long as the UK says it needs to be whether 3 months, 6 months or a year. I don’t think that time is really an issue at all.
All that matters now is whether or not parliament will request an extension and for what purpose, there will be no extension other than for the two reasons mentioned above.
You know what I belive Independence supporters aught to be thinking hard about? It’s that the final end game of this debacle will be a 2nd EU referendum sometime around June next year.
It’s the only sane way out of the mess for both Tories and Labour, Remain will win it easily and where does that leave the mandate for a 2nd Independence referendum?
Forget May’s Brexit exit, lets concentrate on producing a winning indy vote. Leave Westminster and the red and blue Tories to fight it out, over who controls the wheel of the Titanic.
We have a Holyrood mandate for the vote, so lets use it before we lose it. We all know Westminster will never change so lets put our efforts into breaking up this onesided union.
We’ll never get a better chance than this to exit this farcical union, with all the chaos south of the border, now is the time.
Dan Huil @ 17:05,
As far as Scotland is concerned, I don’t think it’s hatred they feel, Dan, it’s inadequacy, dependence, a full-blown inferiority complex. The hatred they feel is towards the likes of us, who are confident in the ability of our native land and its people to prosper unaided, because in our resolution and self-assurance we show them up for who they truly are. It’s a kind of jealously gone rancid.
For those however who do wake up to the realities and find their feet, it is a liberation that is refreshingly personal as well as social.
With this, and the Presiding Officers recent disasterous decision it’s clear that Labour are determined to have Scotland absorbed into a greater england either intentionally, or by their incompetence.
@Thepnr
“It’s the only sane way out of the mess for both Tories and Labour, Remain will win it easily and where does that leave the mandate for a 2nd Independence referendum?”
I don;t believe this is now only about Brexit and that IndyRef2 will still be a goer even if UK Remains in EU.
The entire Brexit debacle has completely unmasked WM in the eyes of a substantial number of soft-Unionists here in Scotland who believed it to be working in Scotland’s interests and who have now seen that it does the complete opposite, ignoring and despising us at every turn. And with the Devolution settlement now completely broken by WM who can now change ScotGov legislation whenever they so wish, I consider that another significant and fundamental ‘material change’ from 2014 that should be sufficient to trigger IndyRef2. Devo is DEAD. Will we remain at the mercy of a callous UK Tory Party or do we take matters into our own hands and get the hell out?
I say wait until all the New Year is over, and we have planted the seeds of what’s going on to our friends that we only see every now and then.
Half way through January, fire the start gun.
@ Robert J. Sutherland 5:33pm
“For those however who do wake up to the realities and find their feet, it is a liberation that is refreshingly personal as well as social.”
Great point, Robert. I must confess I sometimes forget about the personal and social aspect of the journey towards independence. More should be made of this liberation.
@Proud Cybernat
“Devo is DEAD”
That’s good enough for me as proven yesterday that Westminster can change the Devolution settlement at their whim without even consulting Holyrood shows DEVO is definitely dead.
That for one is a “material change in circumstances”. We fight right on in seeking Independence no matter how Brexit finishes. The demand for Independence won’t diminish now, it can only increase until we get that vote.
Have Corbyn and May got a backroom agreement?
I’m beginning to think it may not belong till we see someone in a white jacket, tied at the back franticly screaming ‘Brexit is Brexit, it’s red, white and blue, we are almost there, they are still negotiating’ as she is dragged away.
Have we almost reached the Einstein definition of insanity, or have we already past it?
Thepnr @ 17:28,
Sorry, Alex, but I think you’re whistling in the dark here out of an evident persistent wish to delay the necessary confrontation. May’s strategy is clearly to run out the clock till her “deal” is the only available alternative to the “no-deal” that no-one wants, and the Labour opposition is so hopelessly conflicted it’s utterly incapable of achieving any alternative.
We have to face up now to the hard reality that we will assuredly be dragged out of the EU next March against our will unless we take control of events somehow and do something on our own account first. Anything else is self-delusion that will keep us the passive victim of events. We have been that far too long already.
@Cubby says: 14 December, 2018 at 4:47 pm:
” … If we assume The leader of the SNP has a mandate and a majority of Scottish MPs …
You just answered your own question, Cubby.
“IF”, we assume …
Big if and bigger assumption.
The SG has indeed got a mandate but it is a mandate to hold a second referendum.
Neither the SG, the SNP MPs or the SNP are legally sovereign.
They are the elected representatives of a majority of the electorate who have chosen them to govern |Scotland.
They still need to have a mandate from the legally sovereign people of Scotland who demand an end of the union. They do not have that mandate – YET.
The point is it is not just those who voted for the SNP that are the legally sovereign people of Scotland and the combined unionist parties voters are also legally sovereign.
Washington Post headline … ” Is Theresa May a bad negotiator, or is Brexit just an impossible proposition? Answer: Yes. “
The Leave campaigns sold voters the idea that the government could build an ocean going battleship made of finest English Stilton cheese – May has negotiated a rowing boat with a box of Edam sandwiches.
Whose fault? The Leave campaigns for being totally dishonest and peddling impossible expectations, May for pretending delivery was achievable, or those voters who allowed themselves to become so ill informed and gullible?
It’s a funny post but a bit of a stretch. 🙂
It is however, a good response to the old Labour pish about how it’s all the SNPs fault Thatcher came in to power in 1979.
If you have yet to do so, Google for the TM / Gollum video – it’s side splitting!
Copy/paste the following terms to find it:
Andy Serkis Theresa May
🙂
Robert Peffers @ 5.03
Agreed Robert, the Establishment always act together and the pretence that we or England have any real choice is an illusion. They’ve been at this since the French Revolution,we only ever get to pick from the approved choices.
And we are seeing first hand how they manage things when we make choices they don’t like…
It would be interesting to know which “Lord’s” exactly ,put that wrecking amendment into the sleekit Bill?
Who authored the wording of it ( it would need a Legal mind)
When was it authored and who authorised it?
Did the Welsh FM know it was in the pipeline,because they never really explained why after being shoulder to shoulder with Holyrood they capitulated. Lastly did our Presiding Officer have wind of it?
There’s quite an effort been put in to this,it didn’t happen “one day in the Lords” and we know from how much the news of it is being suppressed,there’s probably quite a story there too?
Shame Scotland doesn’t have any journalists in Westminster to investigate!!
Anyhoo.. how are you keeping Robert?
Scottish Tories separatist tendency.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/12/scottish-tories-are-preparing-back-second-brexit-referendum
@Robert J. Sutherland
No need to be sorry for having a diametrically opposing view 🙂 Robert and I totally agree with you that May is attempting to run down the clock and Corbyn is effing useless.
Still I do believe sanity will prevail and I guess we’ll have to wait and see. What does intrigue me though is your assertion “unless we take control of events somehow and do something on our own account first”
We hear this all to often on Wings though very rarely does anyone explain what the “somehow” and “something” might be.
I don’t think it’s good enough to gnash and wail without providing solutions, else you’re no further forward. Just left there gnashing and wailing.
I’m beginning to wonder if the SNP MPs may have missed a trick this week.
They could have walked out of the HoC after the Kangaroo SC verdict on the CB, stating the reasons and forcing the MSM to cover and debate it.
Just sayin. 🙂
Just seen the homelessness reports for the countries of the UK. I wonder when it is going to dawn on those in Wales they need to dump the London based parties and elect a party from Wales that has primarily its interests at heart.
Labour, Tory and LibDems in Wales are the same as the ones in Scotland, branch offices with the masters based in London and another country as their priority.
Dugdale the (snowflake) destroyer.
Hey Ghillie, excellent let’s go for a snap seasonal gathering tomorrow the 15th in the capital then Yes! 🙂 ah was looking back thru o/t and Winger Marga actually arrived in Edinburgh last week and returns this Sunday… SO ah’ll jump over tomorrow afternoon then, aye’ll be in contact with ye Ghillie, we’ll give you a shout when we’re out an about Marga, yipeeeee!
Let the excitement continue…
All welcome, be there 2 of us or two-hundred!
Seasons greetings and welcome to Wingers Pedro & Tia.
I fully agree with the article. However we should not neglect the efforts of the LibDems. The old BT team were so focused on attacking the SNP by tactical voting. The gifted the Tories seats and helped the continuation of austerity.
Labour and LibDem voters in Scotland smirk about “their victory” ignoring the damage they caused to society by their narrow minded vindictive action. For the Unionists the suffering of their fellow Scots is a price worth paying to protect their London masters.
A pity it is always those in greatest need who pay that price for the union and not them.
I might be looking at this in a simplistic way but as Scotland voted to remain, and we are dragged out of the EU on March 29th against our will, then isn’t this a subjugation of Scottish sovereignty?
If so, then the Treaty of Union is over and Westminster have no “authority” any more. Please correct me if I am wrong.
@Luigi
The SNP missed a few tricks when there were 56 of them@Westminster and had 50% of the popular vote.
Nebelous
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/nebulous
I think that is a good description of Theresa may.
Given the total silence in our wonderful media it would appear that contrary to the norm Rangers supporters behaved like angels in Vienna.
Hahaha This might be worth going to see on 19th Jan 2019.
https://www.gamespot.com/videos/brexit-2019-official-trailer/2300-6447730/
Thenpr @5.28, dont worry alex, the manade actually says the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is “clear and sustained evidence” that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a “significant and material” change in circumstances, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will.”
If Brexit doesnt happen , we are not going away, we are nearly there now, sureley this shambles will bring a few more onside ?
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/thesnp/pages/5540/attachments/original/1461753756/SNP_Manifesto2016-accesible.pdf?1461753756
@ Robert J. Sutherland
I’ve been saying for years that the SNP should be using every non-violent means at its disposal to de-legitimise the British state in Scotland. If for example, refugees are getting forced out of Scotland by the Home Office, put them up at Bute House and embarrass London.
The SNP act as though they have all the time in the world. This Brexit crisis won’t last for ever – nothing ever does in politics. Sooner or later, through natural laws of politics, the SNP majority in Holyrood won’t last forever.
‘Mike Harding reads his viral letter to Theresa May’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H31p46iZqKw
He didn’t miss and hit the wall.
Jings!
Two mentions by Tory folk of “working with all parties and a government of National Unity”.
Aye right! 🙁
…………………………………………………
PS: Mrs May and my precious. It was posted a few threads back.
Sent it out in email to a few ‘bexiteers’ I know on Wednesday.
Believe it or not radio shortbread played it this morning on GMS (sound only of course).
https://www.rt.com/rtmobile/news/latest/446059/html
Thomas Valentine says:
14 December, 2018 at 5:53 pm
Have Corbyn and May got a backroom agreement?
________
Dunno. But I *do* know neither have a backbone.
Or….
Will a no deal Brexit be the fault of the SNP who, by shying away from their core policy during campaigning for GE17, led to many SNP softies holding their nose or staying at home.
Come on Rev, EVERYTHING is the fault of the SNP in the end. You just need to think it through…
@RJS
I see Thepnr has replied, but to take this “out of an evident persistent wish to delay the necessary confrontation” I’m sure he has no wish to delay, same as the rest of us, as in “unneccessary” delay.
The problem is that if Brexit is cancelled, as it might be, the mandate for Indy Ref 2 is changed, to put it mildly. It could no longer be on Brexit being a “material change” because Brexit would have been cancelled.
What other grounds there could be would be worth discussing though.
jfngw says:
14 December, 2018 at 6:15 pm
Just seen the Just seen the homelessness reports for the countries of the UK. I wonder when it is going to dawn on those in Wales they need to dump the London based parties and elect a party from Wales that has primarily its interests at heart.
Labour, Tory and LibDems in Wales are the same as the ones in Scotland, branch offices with the masters based in London and another country as their priority.
_______
Work in progress, my dear friend – just as it had been in Scotland for decades. I hope that one of my (new) leaders – Adam Price AM/AC, will become the First Minister by the time our National Assembly is renamed a Parliament.
(PS I live in exile from both National Parties I belong to).
O/T
I saw a wee bit on Statue of leading suffragette Emmeline Pankhurst being unveiled today and then It reminded me of
Viscountess, Nancy Astor,First woman to ‘take her seat’ in HoC all good stuff and fair play to them both. 🙂
But I also saw a reference to a lesser known fact.
The first woman to actually win a Westminster seat was Irish.
https://archive.is/8l4W2
You’re just trying to deflect criticism, Rev. Everybody knows it was Nicola that caused Brexit.
Somebody said it again just the other day.(Or words to that effect)
George Orwell was spot on the money with ‘Newspeak’.
@yesindyref2
“What other grounds there could be would be worth discussing though.”
Weeellll, since you mention it and since it’s a hypothetical ‘what if’ scenario. It does pose quite the interesting problem to consider.
UK gov took the Scottish government and nation partner to court to steal powers from Holyrood and force Scotland’s population into a situation against its will. A first time ever on all counts. An uncomfortable point on public record where UK gov sought and succeeded to undermine the devolution settlement by taking powers from Scotland without permission or ballot. That would constitute a reasonable shift of constitutional status quo, you’d think.
Then there’s the trashing of the Sewel convention in the midst of the Gina Miller case. The lack of delivery on their indyref one pledges and assurances, once again seeking to undermine their own devolution agreement, endangering a constitutional settlement and covenant with the Scottish electorate. The interim trashing of their economic and social assurances made during indyref 1 a bit of an insult on top of injury. That kinda thing.
More importantly though. Should Brexit fall through, or get reversed. Will powers return to Holyrood and the EU? Will UK gov give up those Henry VIII powers? Undo their overhaul the fixed term parliament faddle?
In effect, would they be willing to undo all they have done in the past couple of years? And if they did? How do they make amends to all the affected and offended parties they pooped on from a great height?
The UK today isn’t the UK they claimed it would be back in 2014 to be sure.
Worth a thought. 😎
Dug dale knows well she chose the wrong side!
Such now is her determination to fuel the justification of her unionism. In dark places in her conscience she is well aware she FU¥KED up, so her country is paying the price.
Dug dale is a clown!! A silly wee lassie that that knows she is finished! Nae credibility and nae brains! Put her on the shelf, it’s the festive season!!
Fintan O’Toole, Irish Times columnist, talks about BREXIT and the brand of English Nationalism which drives it. He has just published a book “Brexit: the Politics of Pain”. Interesting observation on the state of Britain/England. 1hr 3mins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvDAW5SjdaE
In fairness to Dugdale,
em,
em,
nope i got nothin.
“The first woman to actually win a Westminster seat was Irish”.
She was indeed
Countess Constance Markeivicz, née Gore-Booth was her name. She stood on a Sinn Fein Abstentionist policy and never took her seat.
She had been active in irish nationalist, socialist and republican centres for many years, shouldered a rifle and fought in the 1916 Rising,
She was sentenced to death like the other Irish leaders but reprieved because she was a woman,
She was imprisoned and still she fought on, becoming the 1st woman to be elected to Westminster and then disdaining to take up her seat.
Sinn fein’s abstentionist policy continues to this very day – a century-old tradition
@Macart
Yes, that would be the case to make. And then if support rises, that’s the mandate again.
Even the UK Parliament cancelling Brexit might shift some to YES on the basis of “What on earth was that all about?”.
Macart @ 7.40
All good points to consider…
Because if Westminster withdraw article 50 their Union with the EU might reset as if article 50 never happened.
But the UK Union won’t..
And for what it’s worth I can’t see Westminster giving up any power’s that they’ve used brexit to gain.
Although if they did stay in Europe and had to “withdraw their withdrawal bill,and, we were still in the UK Union.
Then we should redraw the continuity bill and submit it for royal assent again… That should stir thing’s a bit..
as a staunch remainer who voted Brexit (supported indy all my life) I got a lot of flak down here in Cambridge as I reasoned Brexit for England was an economic disaster which might just might tip folks over the border to see sense in a second indy ref.
I now see hard Brexit coming and a bit of I told you so ; but to give the Scottish tory leader whatever her name is her due , she ran a good campaign and Kezia’s effect was much less I feel.
Don’t get me wrong, Kezia must know what an evil person she is and must wonder how she will ever look anyone in the face ever again, but lets not take our eye of the ball that its the tories that need to be seen as the enemy of the people.
@Liz g and yesindyref2
😉 (winky thing)
Basically they’ve already altered the status quo and constitutional settlement within the UK.
Somehow I don’t see yer average Tory resetting the clock in a gentlemanly fashion and apologizing for all the unnecessary bother (cough).
Quote: “stigma of being the one who was holding the Brexit baby when it took a catastrophic dump all over the British economy.”
I LOL’d like a nutter in a crowded Pizza Express in Stirling when I read that…. hilarious!
Some normally sane, or desperate folk, saying “Sanity will prevail/ they won’t be THAT irresponsible” regarding the Tories just opting for No Deal.
Think about the evidence thus far. They have acted irresponsibly for the last two years. The EU issue has dogged the party for 40 years, so we are OUT in March, come hell or high water. No responsible or caring group of people acts like this. The extremists will do anything to get this over the line. Look at the line up of Tory gammon, lots will be standing down to enjoy the spoils, they just dont fucking care about citizens.
Get your stash of essentials sorted as best you can. Accept the realty of this situation.
the tories were very close to electing a no deal leader, and they know it. the scots tories know just how disasterous it would be for them, if an english nationalist like rees mogg were elected, they are talking about breaking away from london as they know they cant sell no deal in scotland. they read the polls
labour held meetings with the dup last night, they need their votes for a VONC to carry. the arithmatic is very tight in the hoc. altho i cant see the dup doing this? they prefer to wait and then vote to kill treezas deal for good. (if after what the eu told treeza last night the deal could still be considered alive in any real sense)
it wouldnt surprise me if a group (small but big enough) of hard brexiteers wouldnt consider voting in corbyns VONC if treeza tries to extend the depature date.
tories, dup, ugh, i dont envy corbyns task, like trying to nail jelly to a wall.
but a VONC is still a serious possibility. i think tho, the ball is now in treezas court
A few of us were espousing this (obviously not as well written) over on the Graun just before the GE and more so just after it. Most comments fell foul of the Wraiths aka The Moderators, especially if any criticism of the Graun’s Scottish Editor Severin’s handling of coverage was made. Kesia in her drive to oust the horrible nasty SNP did a fine job – and in so doing 12 + 1 Tory MP’s were hatched. The 1 being fluffy who would have got back in anyway. On the BBC debate where all the Scottish leaders were on , Nicola S stated that sLAb & sLibDem had an unwritten pact to reverse campaign in areas where either party was weak but drive up voters away from the SNP. Ruth (The Tank Commander) Davidson giggled joy at hearing this – on a debate, on prime time TV. The ‘Best Way to Beat the SNP’ was Kezia’s coup de grace – hopefully her political epitaph when at last her Political career is put to rest. Still, at least Kezia’s love life has some sensibility about it.
Their @6:11pm
“… rarely does someone explain what the somehow and something and somehow might be” ..”Grrr bashing of teeth”
On the previous thread I explained EXACTLY that but got few comments on the “Plan”. Perhaps you could assist by reading it and commenting. At this point in the proc3ss with all that has happened, we are where we are and need to now grasp the thistle.
@Valerie
I guess you mean me as I was the only one I think to mention sanity on this thread so far. I think you’re missing the point I tried to make and that it’s not the Tories I’m talking about it’s all 650 MP’s.
Only around 100 of them are insane enough to positively embrace a no deal Brexit, the rest are already either very much against no deal or will see sense.
Parliament will decide what the end result of this shitshow is going to be and not the Tories, I’m very confident that faced with a choice between no deal and a 2nd referendum that the latter win win easily.
Only Turkeys would vote for Xmas, self preservation will come to mind alright and now the majority in the country are clearly for Remain. This is no wishful thinking I absolutely believe that it is closer to reality than the folly and ridiculousness of crashing out with no deal.
Thepnr @8:34pm
My post @ 8:27pm was meant for you. Alas auto correct got me.
For the avoidance of doubt, whether it is no deal or a 2nd Ref I really don’t care. I’m certainly not desperate to Remain and a no deal would greatly aid the Independence cause.
All I was suggesting was to consider the possibility of Remaining in the EU and what that might mean for when Indy 2 should be called and under what mandate?
There’s no doubt that we all become attached to our own pet theories, nothing wrong with that but best not discount anything even something with just a 1% chance will happen 1% of the time.
Thepnr @ 18:11,
You make a fair point, and one I do appreciate. I guess I recognise my own lack of ability to control matters, and like many I just have to invest my hopes in Nicola and those around her, and hope that they do have a plan and a serious willingness to pursue it.
The principal difficulty of course is that the situation is inherently chaotic, out of anyone’s obvious control. But that can be an advantage as well as a disadvantage in that it offers an opportunity to impose some desired direction on it. (That’s what May is trying to do, after all.)
But in deference to your implicit challenge, I can have a stab at it. The critical point, it seems to me, is the decision on EURef2, or more accurately, the realisation that it is just not going to happen, since there is no likely parliamentary route to achieve it. This pending “failure” is a mixed blessing, since after that point frustrated Remainers in Scotland like Kezia will likely revert to their Unionist default and those in England will again lose all interest in us. It would be nice if that realisation would cause some high-profile names to finally flip, or bring a significant shift to indy in the polls, and either would certainly be welcome, but I’m not counting on them.
Likewise, I can’t see May being willing to voluntarily accede to a S.30 ever, really, but the request has to be submitted once the hope of an EUR2 is gone, to put her under pressure over the issue while she is already under under other pressures, and provide a rallying-point to the pro-EU majority in Scotland.
May will only move if she is pushed, and I can see two opportunities. The weaker is to threaten – and be fully prepared to implement – an “advisory” indyref. The stronger, if a means can be found to do it, is what I and others such as Daisy Walker have previously proposed, namely to use constitutional-legal means to stall Brexit. Art.50 demands that exit be done according to constitutional means, and we have good reason to make objections. It doesn’t in the end matter if they are ultimately upheld or not. We use the same legalistic tricks as UKGov just used with us in the SC.
Just imagine the effects that would ensue if a case had to go all the way to the ECJ for a ruling. Calls in England to throw us out, for instance. Show the PSBs just how much (ie. how little) they count with London and the English body politic.
Even taking steps to institute an “advisory” referendum (which in a Scottish context isn’t actually advisory at all, even without the precedent of the EURef) could be a useful challenge to UKGov – would it dare a “normally” Sewell intervention and thus precipitate a constitutional crisis?
That is precisely the situation which UKGov fears the most, because it would rally support for independence like nothing else. So instead of leaning over backwards to be accommodating – the right confidence-building approach heretofore – a constitutional crisis is exactly what the SG should be striving to engineer now, and trust that the people of Scotland will rise to the challenge.
I am firnly in the ‘we need brexit to destroy Britain’ camp. I wound up with a vote in both countries due to moving south just before the vote. I knew Scotland would vote remain so I used my English vote to vote leave, specifically to damage Britain. I agree with some of the earlier posts – the most damaging no deal brexit is in our interests. In fact our SNP MPs should openly state in their Parliament that they will vote for whatever is the most damaging thing for Britain, specifically to cause said damage. Drive the bstards over the cliff then announce Indy2.
On the subject of the Scottish Parliament dissolving the Union and the means to do so. Would it take the form of a Bill for Royal Assent as that is for the functioning of a Constitutional Monarchy?
An interesting possibility, is that a declaration of intent to dissolve the Treaty may be enough in itself. If though the requirement is for an Act of the Scottish Parliament via a Bill requiring Royal Assent; that in turn places the Constitutional issue directly at the feet of the Crown and not the Westminster Parliament – because such a Bill would be directly referred to the Crown as a Scottish Monarch without requiring passage and assent via Westminster – as naturally that place is no longer recognised by the very declaration of intent to dissolve the Treaty, nor is it recognised the Monarch of the KoE should be giving Assent to a Scottish Bill.
Lizzie can only rummage for her correct hat and impress the Great Seal (or a Wafer facsimile) or refuse to assent to a Bill by the declared Scottish Parliament as Scotland’s Monarch and what a pandoras box that would open.
Knocks out pipe on heel, fills a fresh bowl…
@Kangaroo
”Grrr bashing of teeth”
Watch you don’t wear out your gums with all that teeth bashing.
I read your “plan” on the last thread and didn’t feel the need to comment. It was your plan and I had nothing to add, correct me if I’m wrong but it boiled down to announcing Indyref2 now for Brexit day on 29th Mar and if Brexit day moved then we cancel Indyref2 and reset it for the new Brexit day?
I don’t see much merit in calling Indyref2 now, I don’t see any significance or advantage to having it on or close to Brexit day. So it’s another opinion of which we have a lot of on Wings as you will have noticed.
I also thought you were completely wrong to rule out what the alternatives from happening. You said.
My own opinion is that none of these are “non starters” and an extension to article 50 is the most likely thing that can happen between now and 29th March.
A final thought, the post I made that had you bashing your teeth, I said “rarely does someone explain” not never.
I love it when politicians say they speak for “the public” or “the people” as if they’ve asked all of us. As for Dugdale, her position on referendums seems to be: let’s repeat the ones my side loses and not repeat the ones my side wins.
Very principled stance there, Kez. Truly an inspiration to us all.
Sorry Rev but you are wrong. Theresa May’s government is not almost functional. “Barely functioning” would be a closer description 😀
Dan Huil
‘British nationalist hatred towards Scotland is ingrained in people like Dugdale.‘
How can you tell looking at a newborn that it will be a British nationalist? It is not inborn but like selfishness its learned and Dugdale learned by her mistake.
She joined Labour to profit from its hegemony over Scottish political life. By joining the entourage of Foulkes she thought she had put her foot on the first rung of the ladder to a life of privilege. Then along came the SNP and turned that ladder up the ship of state from a First Class companionway to a scrambling net for the folk in steerage. No wonder the poor lassie has taken a scunner to the SNP.
If we listen to them we can learn what turned them into BritNats and then use that their framework to paint an alternative ScotNat future using the Indy lifeboat rather than going down with the Britanic after the Brexit iceberg
We have to hope that the SNP to come up to the mark – I am reasonably confident they will, as many of them, but especially those most in the news recently, have absolutely shown their comprehensive nous at this time.
It is difficult to juggle this and get the budget past an unwilling parliament when you are a minority government, with your “allies” seeking maximum leverage – as they are entitled to do.
However, as this unravels over the next 2-3 week – IF T MAY’s CAR CRASH CONTINUES ON – I hope the SNP can stand to up the pressure.
I am happy to await Labour finding a spine and/or a direction, Lib Dems a principle they will actually adhere to (other than no to Indy), and the Tories for a mug to put in the knife in on behalf of the next Tory leader .
The SNP hopefully will begin to also play a longer game. The Scottish Stock Exchange is a great idea, as is the SIB. So would any extra benefit or allowance if we can afford it.
We need to make at least a gesture to local taxation reform as we also agree with it.
We should also look again at beginning to experiment with local currency as several contributors here have suggested – notably Capella for one. I have also written to individual SNP politicians on this.
It is legal and has UK precedent – the Bristol Pound. It is acceptable to US rednecks and socialist communes alike. It is quite normal in variously sized and organised areas within the EU.
It prevents speculation as it is worthless to accumulate long-term. It retains any wealth creation within the restricted area that it circulates. It is controlled by the issuing authority. Its use is entirely voluntary – THUS THOSE THAT DON’T WANT TO USE IT CAN STFUP and F.O..
This would complete another leg of the support for an independent nation – the use of a separate currency – even if on a restricted scale. It would help if if a personal banking system was also set up, possibly with the cooperation of credit unions which would not allow speculative geared lending.
Thus, a form of currency proof against speculation, an investment bank, stock trading and personal banking can be created in advance of independence without the agreement of Westminster. All that institutionally left is the creation of a central bank which would not allow the creation of speculative debt by the orthodox bankers.
The Scottish people can decide the degree of our future involvement with the EU – I would hope for a cooperative one.
BUT – nothing can give us that choice but independence. Thus, Labour is a blind alley, with its internal corruption, block votes, pseudo-socialism, while pursuing personal gain and a chance at a dead weasel coat.
If independence resulted in a right-wing government for Scotland I would be disappointed and surprised – BUT I COULD CHANGE IT WITHIN 4/5 YEARS. I would never be faced with endless neoliberalism from Westminster because England outnumbers us 10 to 1. We would have control over our lives.
@ Thepnr
If I was referring to you, I would have addressed you. Is sanity such an odd word to be using at this time?
It was a general statement referring to quite a few on Twitter. I follow quite a few academics, trade experts etc.
We are now being bombarded with no deal details, such as Channel 4 tonight. It’s not that bad, we can have zero tariffs on goods coming in, that will benefit the consumer.
An increase in the bullshit.
We shall see, but the Rev rarely calls it wrong, as we know.
Even now Lord George Foulkes states on the 13th when Labour return to power, with the support of the Libdems, civic society etc there will be a constitutional convention for the U.K.
Basically our voice counts for heehaw re Brexit,
Our Parliaments decisions can be overturned on a Westminster whim
Unelected Lords now drawing up their own plans
See they work for you
Thepnr@9:08pm
The gnashing of teeth was in quotes as it came directly from your post.
Did you read all of the various posts, as there are several?
The advantage of having it on Brexit day are clearly stipulated and the reasons for the options being ruled out are also clearly stipulated.
Whilst I agree that all options are possible, they are improbable for the reasons stipulated. You do not offer any reason why you rule these options in, other than they are possible.
I agree that “it is another option of which we have lots here on Wings”. How does that sit with your comment “rarely does one explain what the somehow and something might be”. Either there are proposals or there are Not.
Nicola has said clearly that the people will have their say, that implies a referendum does it not. If it does then all other mechanisms are simply sldeshows or at best skirmishes.
If you have an alternative proposal, were all eyes.
Tories are the enemy of ordinary people. Labour however, in Scotland, run on the philosophy of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. There is no difference between them.
The SNP have ended years of entitlement for Labour and are thus hated as the main opponent.
I am not powerless in this situation by any means. I have legs,a voice and a willingness to use them for independence. When enough make the same decision, that is real power. Political parties only exist by the appeal to ordinary people. Without our vote they cannot function.
There is a basic truth, which is that for Labour to have their moment in the Westminster sun, they need Scotlands vote.
Having lost it,they are struggling to regain it,and thus their chances of a majority are reduced. They made their own bed, through their own choices, so let them stew.
“When the situation is obscure, attack!” [Heinz Guderian]
Situations don’t get much more obscure than the present one.
Just sayin.:)
@yesindyref2 and Macart
“What other grounds there could be would be worth discussing though.”
Agreed. That the devolution settlement was ripped up and Scotland was politically shat on by the UK Govt / UK Parliament seems a material change to me.
Let me qualify that: Scotland being shat on is the same as the last 300 years, but the ripping up of the devolution settlement is a huge change.
Talking bout my generation
The Britnats are squealing about the once in a generation thing again because they’re terrified of the next indyref
If I could just remind all thick Britnats of what a generation is in political terms to quote Jacob Reese Mogg
*One government cannot bind the next* plus a normal political generation would be five years because that’s what the fixed term parliament is
I guess the Britnats counting of a generation would apply to what now, an elephant generation, a blue whale generation, a Galapagos island tortoise generation I think I’ll just accept a parliamentary generaton so that means Indyref 2 anytime you like FM, announcement preferably the day before Brexit nice and official like
Kezia should undoubtedly never be allowed to forget this. But laying the blame solely on her – isn’t it all a bit, “the SNP ushered in Thatcher”?
@Kangaroo
I’m not wanting to start an argy bargy but you don’t quote someone by using words of your own and calling it a quote.
Nicola has said the Scots will have their say and I’m 100% in agreement with that, I’m also in 100% agreement with her saying that it will be when the results of Brexit are clear.
I did post my view the other day as to why I rule all these options in, I’m guessing you missed that post. I could repost the lot again but others would have read it already so here’s a link.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/return-of-the-terror/comment-page-1/#comment-2415839
Get your Flags & Flagpoles out for New Year in Princes St & George Sq / Caird Sq / & Aberdeen & fly them in front of the Bbc/Stv cameras lets show the World we’re a proud Nation in the face of adversity .
Dr Jim says:
14 December, 2018 at 9:59 pm
Talking bout my generation””
………
The generation time for E. coli is 20 min.
Just saying.
Thepnr @ 21:08,
Knocking down calls for a more proactive approach by invoking existing uncertainties, no matter how unlikely or implausible, invites the obvious counter that your apparent preference for waiting passively for an equally unlikely extension is merely another version of the same, except with the added risk of being at the mercy of events entirely in the hands of others.
There is now a snowball’s chance in hell of a UKGE before Brexit. May clearly intends to hang on come-what-may, and Corbyn has neither the power nor the inclination to do anything about it. Same goes for a EURef2, it could never get through the current dsyfunctional HoC.
How you imagine there is going to be an extension beyond end March beats me anyway. The EU is already heartily sick of two years of atrociius faffing about and doesn’t want even another minute of any more of the same. It has more-pressing matters of its own to be getting on with. The deal on offer is the only deal, and to think otherwise is to buy into the UKGov exceptionalism that believes that if the UK just keeps being obstinate enough, the EU will cave in to its demands at the eleventh hour. Fat chance.
I have a suspicion that the “delay, delay” strategy (if one can even honour it as such) is most popular among those who are either vainly hoping that “something will turn up” ex-machina, or those who are secretly rather hoping to foist Brexit on a population against its clearly-established preference.
This is where leadership is sorely needed, carrying us forward against our natural inclination to hesitate and in the face of uncertainties. That is how success is won. Waiting for everything to become staringly obvious is for losers.
Valerie says:
14 December, 2018 at 9:45 pm
I think CH4 news tonight in the piece by their economics reporter, Helia Ebrahemi(?), made the position tariffs and WTO rules pretty clear. Tariffs on beef for example of 90%.
There was a discussion afterwards with a business leader and someone from the ‘it will be all right on the night brigade’. The latter was on a hiding to nothing given what had been reported beforehand by Helia which gave the lie to the gloss he seemed to be trying to put on a no deal scenario.
CH4 news does not seem to have put either of these pieces on their web site unfortunately
I wish folk would stop calling Kez a daft wee lassie, she’s 37 not 17, although, I agree, still daft. Her parents are also SNP members, so God alone knows why she ended up on the dark side
Thepnr @10:08pm
Sorry if I misquoted you. The gnashing of teeth was in reference to the last para of your 6:11pm. A simple misunderstanding.
I guess we disagree on the probability of each option being used. That is the nub of the debate between us.
If we don’t go before Brexit day then we won’t have the ECJ at our back. I therefore infer it is the last possible day, otherwise Scotland will be subsumed into Greater England just as Peter Bell and others have warned.
We need to GO whilst there is maximum confusion and conflict in the opposition, and when our troops are ready whilst theirs are bickering. It would also be good if they otherwise engaged with a GE so theyn ill fight amongst themselves.
Given the probabilities of the various outcomes in your post. Do you have a plan to go with given your views on the options?
Robert J Sutherland @10:35pm
Good post, I wholeheartily agree. Let’s get the party started.
Unleash the dogs of war, set the date as Brexit day.
@ TJenny at 10:45 pm
I thought she looked for a position within the SNP, but got waylaid by the smooth talking of a job with Lord George Faulkes
@Kangaroo
Sorry, any plan I might have would depend on the eventual outcome of Brexit. A plan for No deal Brexit would be vastly different from one that ended up with a Remain vote in a 2nd referendum.
I can only guess that this is also why Nicola Sturgeon won’t make any announcement on Indyref2 before the outcome of Brexit is clear.
It would be very useful if a couple of folk crossed the floor, either at Holyrood or Westminster.
I hope we are working on it. An offer or two might do the job.
IF she’d used the ‘T’ word in the interview it would have breached her Labour membership T&Cs – not being allowed to promote other political parties, arguably she did so in that she promoted the interests of other parties even WITHOUT naming them.
I’d been a lifelong Labour voter (until I saw how they acted in Holyrood) and have NEVER understood their visceral hatred for SNP. The SHOULD be natural allies. But Kezia, along with previous leaders, has helped to gut the party with their attitude to SNP…
ANOTHER ABBA INTERMISSION:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BshxCIjNEjY
Rock (2nd November – “Ifs and buts and maybes”):
“The iron was hot and ready to be struck the day after the Brexit referendum result.
If Alex Salmond had been in charge, he would have not missed the opportunity.
But cautious Establishment lawyer Nicola was not up to it.”
Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):
“Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.
The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.
But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.
It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.
Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.
Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.
If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”
Rock (27th June – “Going strong”):
“Following from Unionists United’s success at the last “snap” election, my prediction is that the SNP will lose a lot of seats at the next “snap” election.”
Dave McEwan Hill says:
14 December, 2018 at 11:07 pm
“It would be very useful if a couple of folk crossed the floor, either at Holyrood or Westminster.
I hope we are working on it. An offer or two might do the job.”
The SNP tractor who is in bed with Dugdale should have crossed the floor and moved over to Labour a long time ago.
In my humble opinion.
Stonefree, AFAIK she tried to get a job with SNP but was rejected and then ended up with a job with Foulkes.
Allegedly she was running a nasty twitter account attacking SNP which suddenly disappeared when she ran for office as BLiS MSP candidate. Of course that could have been a coincidence…
That’s Uriah Heep on with *is umble opinions* again, I’m away to watch telly
Before I go Daniel Hannan Tory MEP admits on Talk radio referendums can be rigged
Defo not the Scottish one though eh
She drives a wee Nissan micra, which does not know if it is going left or right or in between … Pleez let me make the right decision , I beg you masters of the Labour party
@Macart, 7.40pm
Should Brexit fall through, or get reversed. Will powers return to Holyrood and the EU? Will UK gov give up those Henry VIII powers?
No, the UK gov will not give up these powers even if Brexit is reversed. The Official Secrets Act was regarded as breaching civil liberties but it was approved in 1914 on the understanding that it would be repealed once the War was over. This has never happened and, in fact, it has been strengthened and extended since then.
Whether there is a no-deal Brexit or Brexit is cancelled, the Scottish Parliament will be neutered after 29 March 2019. It will be a talking shop which Westminster can safely ignore.
For those who may not be familiar with ‘him’, Rock has to squeeze a few out here on a regular basis for reasons which are beyond our ken.
Please be assured that normal conversation will resume in due course.
😉
A wa’n Fuck yir sel ‘Bloke Fae Barnsley’ On Wings tweets.
He’s killing unicorns one by one.
I got to 5 or was it 6 and enough was enough.
A’pen we’v ti da whits in’t best interest of England’shire n’t save it frumt self.
Awa ‘n’ pochle.
Ye ‘ll need tae look it up, its no ‘in’t yorkshire’.
‘A’pen Englandshire votes should have a bloody good look at themselves and if they don’t like what they see, dig in, stick in and MAKE THEIR COUNRTRY BETTER.
The people of Scotlandshire, Walseshire North Irelandshire are NOT your voting conscience.
This is England’s shit – BREXSHIT to be precise – you sort it out if you don’t like it – Scotland has already done its bit, and all you ‘liberal/democratic left wing English voters – now have your arses hanging all the way out the windae – you colonialist, nationalist, hypocritical, socialist, ignorant, Little Englander, wee shites.
Awa hame ‘n look in the mirror. Scotland is free.
Dear everyone from England who is now living in Scotand and voting for Indy Ref 2 – the above rant is not aimed at you. But i do think it is necessary.
The problem is, for all we know May’s plan all along was to make Brexit so impossible it would never happen. And there’s plenty to support that idea, the plenty being the number of mostly Brexiteers who have resigned or been sacked from her government. It could be said she’s set them up for them to be knocked down or fall down, and they haven’t disappointed her.
Now she’s basically forced a no confidence vote by Rees-Mogg & Co, and won it by 2 to 1, there’s no getting rid of her for a year. And that’s plenty of time to have a no deal so terrifying, she’s “forced” to cancel A50 for the good of Britain. What a hero.
Whether that’s likely or not, I have no idea.
Oh aye, talk about leaving things hanging without a conclusion.
That’s why Indy Ref 2 can’t be annoucned yet.
Daisy – I read that tl and I don’t think they were referring to unicorns as reference to Scotland, I think that they’re referring to the Maybot/DUP fantasy Brexit deal. I thought it was positive esp re reform and blame the uk instead of the eu for injustices to those who feel left behind. I think our unicorns are safe. 🙂
tractor rock, its past your bedtime.
Yorkshire 4.500 square miles approx
Population 1.8 million
Scotland 32.000 square miles
Population 5.4 million
Scotland: All the oil in Europe, Yorkshire: none
Scotland : The biggest fishing waters in Europe, Yorkshire: None
Scotland: Self sufficient in renewable energy, Yorkshire: Sheep
I could go on all day like this but the most important fact is Scotland: A country, Yorkshire: Not a country
Education seems to be something the Yorkshire twitter moaners have missed out on as well, 10 year old Scottish kids could tell them this stuff, oh and by the way Yorkshire moaners Scotland kept your lights on in Leeds in 2016-17 and we paid for it, post independence You pay us!
Dr Jim – ah, but don’t forget that Yorkshire has …
The Rhubarb Triangle.
Adam Tomkins, you have a brain, you can reason. yet you peddle this Brit Nat Fascist Pish.
You have chosen to live in Scotland.
Here, the de’il does not take the hindmost.
IF you want to be a fascist Far Right Blue Tory, fuck off back to England.
I took immense pleasure in not voting for you at the last election.
Your politics are poison in Scotland.
Dr Jim you are being disingenous to the Great County of Yorkshire. I have many Yorkshire Mates and they aint that much difference to us apart from their being a lot of batshit brexiteer tories.
Coming to think of it, its probably only the same 25 to 30 % we have that are Brit Nats .And they have quite a few fishing ports actually. Its a lovely place, got everything and with them being tight its cheap as well. Politics aside its a great place and people, generally no waffle or bullshit.
I’ve known a lot of people from Yorkshire, some of them living here many to get away from Westminster and most supporting Independence. Not one of them had anything good to say about Westminster and the bunch of southerner politicians. I’m only surprised there isn’t an Independence movement in Yorkshire, which in fact with the Humber has a population same as ours – 5.4 million.
I should point out that I’m not being anything about the people of Yorkshire, I don’t spend one iota of my time thinking about the people of Yorkshire, to me it and they are an inconsequential subject but it seem to be them who never stop prattling on about their superiority to Scotland all over the internet, if they were not there I would not miss them but they do seem to have a bee in their bonnet about stuff that’s none of their business like most people in the south who feel they have some claim of ownership to a land that other people occupy
People in Yorkshire vote Tory
People in Yorkshire voted Brexit
They get what they voted for.
Scotland voted SNP and to Remain. They do not get a say in it.
The Barnett Formula taking £Billions out of Scotland. Secretly and illegally. Trident and higher Defence costs. The Oil sector totally mismanaged. Oil workers come from Yorkshire and the South. They benefit. CAP payments taken from Scotland. Fishing totally mismanaged. Etc, etc.
Daniel Hannan MEP has been embezzling money from the EU. Has to pay back £Thousands. A crook. Paisley has been taking undeclared foreign holidays. Plus the other illegal DUP bribes. Foster was embezzling £1/2Billion on a corrupt boiler scheme. Other corrupt donations. Still not declared.
Why is a Scottish uni, with Scottish taxpayers, employing someone who wants to destroy the uni sector, the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish economy.
The third rate rejects should not even be there. The unionists illegally changed the Scottish electoral system with no mandate.
The Scotsman website. The first comments.consistently. Lies. How did they do it? Bams.
Now bankrupt.
The Herald going down the tubes
Yorkshire vote
37 Labour MP
17 Tories
1/3 Tory
They get a say in Brexit. Scotland out voted 10 to 1, gets powers taken away.
The North was offered an Assembly. They voted against because they would not get fiscal control. They could have campaigned for it and increased powers. They got Mayors instead?
When Scotland becomes independent one of the first things that should happen is a process put in place to investigate and punish BritNat Tories like Dugdale.
At a minimum they should be barred from political representation for life.
Personally, I’d jail them.
Giving Goose…
You would have gone far in the middle ages or Stalin’s Russia!
She seems a good person to me even if I’m at odds with some of her politics.
It needs somebody to point out the obvious, any chance of her crossing the floor have been made less likely by the legal spat with a certain internet blogger.
Its that time of year.
So feel the Tory pain on having to come to terms with being ripped a new one by the Irish.
https://www.conservativehome.com/book-reviews/2018/12/how-dublin-ran-rings-round-may-on-brexit-and-the-northern-ireland-border.html
(not archiving)
“… it is painful to be reminded at such length that under May’s insultingly opaque leadership, our Government has never worked out how to operate as a team, for a long time did not get to grips with the detail, and then did not realise what it meant, or at least refused to be candid about what it meant, until very late in the day, and is in many ways not being candid now.”
Essexexile says: “It needs somebody to point out the obvious, any chance of her crossing the floor have been made less likely by the legal spat with a certain internet blogger”
Absolute bollocks.
@ Essexexile
Fuck off with your “She seems a good person to me” bullshit
she is a lying, spiteful & vindictive woman who’s spent the best part of her political career standing in the way of my countrys right to self determination and my childrens & grandchildrens right to live in in a prosperous, socially just country for no other reason than to further her own political career.
That woman is repulsive and she has no place in the independence movement
Graeme , you are like me – the forgiving type! I will not forgive the ‘Scottish media’ either.
Can anybody give me a cogent argument why Scotland should NOT revoke Scotland’s “share” of the UK’s Article 50 Notification?
The ECJ says it’s a sovereign prerogative, and the Claim of Right confirms we are Sovereign.
So???
What are we waiting for?
I think Wolffe is an expert fisherman, and is preparing his trophy case as we speak (so to speak).
Another week, another polite post of mine is met with a foul mouthed response for differing slightly from the rabid nationalist agenda.
You guys really are a boon to the Unionist media who want to paint all nationalists as angry, intolerant extremists.
For the billionth time, I am on your side (although I must confess, I become a softer Yes every time I converse with some of the people on here).
I could produce a list of Wings posters who could benefit from a refresher course on posting etiquette. The Rev’s primary rule being ‘post as if you are talking to a no voter who you hope to persuade to vote Yes’.
And, for the billionth time, telling somebody their mild post is bollocks, or calling them a c**t, scum and a loser and that they should f**k off (all of which I have had to put up with) are likely to win over precisely nobody.
“So???
What are we waiting for?”
I love this idea but how, practically, could it be done? Does Nicola Sturgeon simply write a letter to the Maybot & the EU? Would that be acceptable? What objections would there be?
@ Essexexile
So what’s so polite about suggesting another poster would do well in the middle ages or Stalinist Russia ?
I’d like to say sorry if I’ve offended you but to be honest I don’t care I’m sick fed up of lying sleekit unionists like Kezia Dugdale and anyone who defends them, it’s time we stopped pussyfooting around these people and called them out for what they are
@Graeme / @Essexexile
I’m a bit of a defender of Dugdale, but not on this article. Scottish Labour were so full of hatred of the SNP as a party they let the Tories in for another 5 years of universal credit and foodbanks. And Dugdale was complicit in that. But in any case she’s not worth falling out over.
Proud Cybernat says:
15 December, 2018 at 10:18 am
“So???
What are we waiting for?”
I love this idea but how, practically, could it be done? Does Nicola Sturgeon simply write a letter to the Maybot & the EU? Would that be acceptable? What objections would there be?
The Article 50 Notification was a letter written to Donald Tusk. I don’t see why a letter revoking Article 50 wouldn’t follow the same format, however given the Constitutional ramifications, it would be a strategically wise move to have a summit with Nicola and Tusk beforehand to smooth the bumps in the road.
Provided Scotland argues our sovereignty is an existing constitutional reality, rather than a change of circumstances, even in the worst case scenario, I think the EU would at least have to suspend their view of Brexit pending a Constitutional Test Case firing through the ECJ.
As soon as Sovereignty is formally disputed, May’s arbitrary decision to overrule Scotland is Ultra Viraes I think the legal term is… She has exceeded her formal capacity to do it. She is acting as Sovereign without actually being sovereign.
Even if you want to be mealy mouthed about it, you could stop short of enacting Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, and simply raise a point of order where we require Theresa May to PROVE she has sovereignty and ISN’T acting Ultra Viraes. Good luck with that, considering the Claim of Right Scotland has enshrined.
It will be more than adequate to raise a point of Constitutional Order with the EU Bureaucracy to turn Scotland’s Sovereignty into Scotland’s very own Backstop every bit as powerful and immovable as Ireland’s.
Would it be acceptable? Well, the last opinion the Scottish people expressed was to remain in Europe. If we Scot’s, through our Holyrood Government affirm that constitutes a sovereign edict, then the issue becomes formally disputed. Both sides would be required to prove sovereignty, and Scotland has the Claim of Right where Westminster acknowledges Scotland’s popular sovereignty. We don’t have to prove anything, simply challenge others to prove their legitimacy.
With regard to objections, let them object. Their objections I promise you will be no more visceral or outraged than my own objections to the loss of my EU citizenship and the colonial subjugation of my Country to suffer this heinous economic calamity of Brexit. Unless of course we all concede that BritNats have secured another monopoly on being outraged.
I say we do it. Holyrood Debate, vote, send the letter, stop Scotland’s Brexit. Prevention is better than cure.
Essexexile @10.03am
“The billionth time”
I certainly remember you being abusive to me in the first instance and then tried to play the victim with the same type of post. It was on a Sat morning as well. I have deep suspicions of your motives. You are starting to look like just another sneaky Britnat.
I certainly have never seen anyone call you the names you claim.
Bob Mack began his Post last night at 9:51 pm:
“Tories are the enemy of ordinary people.
Labour however, in Scotland, run on the philosophy of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
There is no difference between them……..”
Very true and shame on them. 🙁
” run on the philosophy of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. “
Oh Jeez, really? Is this how we’re spending our weekend?
To fill you in, there are 3 prominent posters on here who have levelled unnecessary aggression and abuse at me in the past. I could trawl through the last few months and find the posts but I really, really do have better things to do. They know who they are. We clashed, they got rude and abusive for whatever reason and now I just avoid reading their posts.
There are others, of which you are definitely one I have to say, who seems convinced that everyone who isn’t bang on message is a Unionist troll, which I definitely am not.
For what it’s worth, I’m fairly sure that two of the people who got radge with me, read my Username and jumped to completely wrong conclusions about my politics.
Also, I didn’t get abusive to you. I suggested some other people’s posts were a bit gammon like and you took offense on their behalf.
On a genuinely serious note, and one which I feel could be somewhere near the heart of why, in the face of all the WM madness, we can’t seem to convince anywhere near enough people to move to Yes, the Unionist accusation that nats are embittered, angry types who are naturally suspicious and untrusting of anybody who thinks like them can be hard to argue against when their point is so frequently underlined on sites like this.
Is the push for indy one of those trigger movements (like Scientology, Veganism or hard line Islam) that naturally attracts a certain type of person with dare I say it, a personality disorder?
It certainly has the required ‘rage against the machine’ element which people who feel rejected by society latch on to as a vehicle to vociferously vent their frustration. Unfortunately, so stark and seemingly without control are their utterings, it gives the whole movement a bad name.
It does seem to be the same people saying the same things in the same way on here, with the whole thing frequently turning into a who can be the angriest competition.
Surely, if we want to progress as a movement we should be more introspective and self critical.
Or should I just f**k off (again)?
@ Essexexile
Look I don’t think your last post is solely directed at me but the last line certainly is
So just to clarify I wasn’t saying “Fuck off” to you personally and I never called you a troll or a unionist, it was your soft spot for Kezia Dugdale I have a problem with
I can understand you misinterpreting what I said but I’m telling you I didn’t mean it that way but you can choose to take it any way you like, matters fuck all to me
Essexexile@2.32pm
I assume your post was directed at me. To me your post contains a lot of negative anti independence stuff. If I see that then I call it out. If you don’t like it can I suggest, as you claim to support independence from Essex , why not try try stopping posting anti independence comments. Simple really.
E.g. “We can’t seem to convince anywhere enough people to move to yes” – how do you know this – speaking to people in Essex or was it from the Daily Mail?
Nats are embittered nasty types……… ” – something the Daily Mail might say.
This post is once again full of stuff that Britnat media would regurgitate.
The truth is that Britnats are the nasty types even the Maybot called her own Tory party the nasty party. People are naturally entitled to be angry about what is happening to Scotland. Only Britnats do not care.
Cubby
No I’m not sourcing the Daily Mail, I’m simply looking at the polling data which quite frankly hasn’t moved in the last four years despite Better Together campaigning on our behalf. The Rev posted an entire article recently on the subject, his conclusion being that you’d have a hard time convincing anyone that the Yes vote has moved since Indyref1. That’s not anti indy, it’s just a fact. I’m far more interested in why it hasn’t moved.
As for ‘nats are embittered, angry types…’ I clearly stated that was the Unionist accusation not my belief.
I’m happy to exchange posts with you and debate issues relevant to indy but please try and read my posts carefully so as not to misinterpret them. These rather terse exchanges between us are unnecessary.
As I said, I’d far rather be talking about what we need to address to make Yes a more attractive option for people who, in spite of everything, would still rather vote against us.
Essexexile@4.33pm
Good try but not convinced by your attempt at sincerity. I think you are the one who should have a few long looks at your posts again if you truly are an independence supporter.
You are either a not very bright independence supporter or a sneaky Essex Britnat.
The polling data has moved. To say otherwise is Britnat propaganda.
” independence ……… that naturally attracts a certain type of person, with dare I say it, a personality disorder.” Again Britnat crap. Stop posting this type of crap and perhaps you may be taken seriously as an independence supporter and not a sneaky Britnat.
So please read my post carefully. Stop posting anti independence comments. It really is that simple. Trying being unique – a Britnat on Wings who does not post anti independence crap.
Graeme says:
15 December, 2018 at 8:34 am
“she is a lying, spiteful & vindictive woman who’s spent the best part of her political career standing in the way of my countrys right to self determination and my childrens & grandchildrens right to live in in a prosperous, socially just country for no other reason than to further her own political career.
That woman is repulsive and she has no place in the independence movement”
Totally agree, unlike the more gullible independence supporters:
Dave McEwan Hill (27th September 2017 – “The Cunning(hame) Plan”):
“Rock at 8.27
What a infantile comment. Rather sums you up. You don’t want the until recently leader of the Labour Party in Scotland to come to us?”
Rock (27th September 2017 – “The Cunning(hame) Plan”):
“Isn’t that the same lying hypocrite of a woman whom the Rev. Stuart Campbell has taken to court for defamation?
The woman who relentlessy attacked the SNP in parliament while being in bed with an SNP MSP at home?
No, I don’t want that woman anywhere near the independence campaign.
She is free to vote Yes if she wants.
Unlike you, I have some principles.”
The trouble with your posts Essex is that you resort immediately to attacking anyone who dares to question the merits of what you actually ‘do’ post. You don’t address anything substantively and immediately go for the ‘typifying’ of those who post on here in the most ‘derived from the ‘anti independence’ stereotypical tropes’ that are out there?
Why is that where you go repeatedly? You once again have shown this to be the most salient points that you want to make, along the lines of ‘no wonder people say blah blah blah because ‘look’ this is ‘blah blah blah’.
And it isn’t. You seem to be overly concerned with ‘how things ‘look’. Rather than address the points, which are ‘valid’.
We are right to call out someone who immediately resorts to any criticism with this sort of shite:
‘Another week, another polite post of mine is met with a foul mouthed response for differing slightly from the rabid nationalist agenda.’
What ‘rabid nationalist agenda’ would that be then? Who ‘actually’ ‘speaks like this’?
Yes you just made out your were ‘only’ stating what you think ‘our’ opponents ‘think. But actually you wrote that on the back of feeling ‘got at’.
If you are a ‘softer’ Yes because of ‘words on a page’ that ‘you’ve’ decided are ‘foul’ then god fucking help you.
There is not a soul on this site that would ever liken any of us to, irrespective of disagreement regarding debate, ‘rabid nationalists’, in the face of ‘criticism’ of what we may post.
Yet you react time and time again, accusing posters that ‘you have marked’ because they question some of ‘your rhetoric’ on here, with these intemperate outbursts that you think are justified ‘because’ why?
Why give ‘succour’ to Dugdale Essex?
Cubby
‘…..to say otherwise is Britnat propaganda’
No it’s not. See the Rev’s article of June 10th – The Buckaroo principle.
And K1,
Again, no it’s not.
Repeatedly, I’ve made sensible posts with the purpose of adding to and progressing the debate of the day and repeatedly I’ve been immediately sworn at and aggressively dismissed. There is a pattern to it which I wouldn’t expect to find on any forum which (yet again) I am conversing with people on my own side.
To the angrier posters on here, try replying with ‘No I don’t agree and here’s why….’ rather than ‘Bollocks, fuck off loser…’ (an amalgam of replies I’ve received on here). It would make your point more valid and mature. Anybody can litter our sentences with expletives. Some of us grow out of it.
Anyway, I’ve told you all that before and it hasn’t made any difference. You still want to portray me as a ("Quizmaster" - Ed) Troll. I’m not at all bothered about bringing my allegiance closer to your quite extreme version of nationalism, I simply don’t have the anger to sustain it. Or the lack of vocabulary.
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The pomegranate (Punica granatum) is a fruit-bearing deciduous shrub or small tree in the family Lythraceae that grows between 5 and 10 m (16 and 33 ft) tall.
The fruit is typically in season in the Northern Hemisphere from September to February,[2] and in the Southern Hemisphere from March to May. As intact arils or juice, pomegranates are used in baking, cooking, juice blends, meal garnishes, smoothies, and alcoholic beverages, such as cocktails and wine.
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I don’t like them myself, not fond of pumpkin pie either.
Essexexile@7.04pm
Try putting a specific time when referring to my posts if you are intending to quote me.
No I don’t agree and here’s why – you are a sneaky Britnat.
Your referral to the Bukaroo is just nonsense. My quote refers to polls.
The more you post the more it is clear that you are a sneaky Britnat. At least HYFUD claimed to be a Britnat and he was from Essex. Your not the FUDs wee brother – are you?
“Extreme version of nationalism” – there you go again. Britnats just can’t help themselves.
Independence is NORMAL – treating another country like a colony is despicable.
K1@6.23pm
Spot on – nailed the Sneaky Britnat.
Oh Cubby!
You seem to want to completely falsely pigeonhole me and I’ve not the faintest idea what you’re on about most of the time.
Let’s just avoid each other shall we?
‘completely falsely pigeonhole me’
Projection much.
Lmao
Stop fucking lecturing us about ‘etiquette’ you bombastic arse.
And of course Cubby…add the patronising infusion of ‘above the fray’ and the heavy aroma of condescension into the mix and we have the full picture: One sneaky patronising condescending….prick.
The guy is here to make out he’s some sort of victim, I don’t know how many more times he can ‘allude’ to ‘nationalists’ and ‘nationalism’ and ‘anger’ whenever anyone actually notices the trite assertions masquerading as ‘debate’ he posts as a means of getting us all to bite.
This is my last comment and my last about oor wee kiddie on ‘independence supporter’.
Pfft!
Another lowbrow outpouring from you K1. I’ll add ‘prick’to the list.
I’m not lecturing you on etiquette, but as you’ve mentioned it, you may want to (re)read the Rev’s rules on etiquette linked from the bottom of this page.
1) Post as if trying to convince a no voter.
2) Play the ball, not the man (or woman).
As you go out of your way to ignore both of these you may expect hammers.
Oh fuck off…you are not the moderator nor the moderator’s pet…but you are a boorish twat (threw that in for xmas).
Arse,prick,fuck off and twat, all in one evening. And you’re saying it’s me who’s boorish.
I’ll stick with the traditional good wishes for a merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.
Probably best we avoid each other from now on though for the sake of your blood pressure.
Och awa ye go ya dafty, does the sound of those words inside your own head as you read them on a page…’hurt your sensibilities’?
Lmao
You typed those words…did that ‘hurt’ too…did it make you feel ‘dirty’.
Get over yersel Essex lad.
Essexexile@9.39pm
I’ll repeat for you as you are now playing the simple lad.
Keep posting Britnat anti independence comments and I will call them out and call you out as a sneaky Britnat phoney independence supporter. Even the most simple minded person must be able to understand this comment.
You will avoid me if you avoid posting anti independence comments. Crystal?
Don’t forget the bollocks. Never forget the bollocks.
Or mind them…
8=)
My last on this.
Re-read my post at 14.32 and then the trail of responses afterwards to their conclusion.
If the Daily Record wanted to write an article under the headline ‘Vile Cybernats’ they have all the material they need right there.
Well done guys.
Essexexile@8.40am
Just another post demonstrating that you are indeed a Sneaky Britnat phoney independence supporter. The fuds wee brother from Essex.
The only vile Cybernats are sneaky phoney independence British Nationalists supporters like you.
You have been rumbled. Away back to the Scotsman or the Telegraph. Plenty of your fellow vile cybernats there.
You’re welcome 🙂
Yesindyref2@9.30am
Very droll. One of your better posts. LOL
Cannae help himsel’…it’s what he’s here to do. Create ‘fake outrage’…what a plonking heap of balderdashingpish he writes. Fairtheweel little Essex lad.