The top table
Posted on
December 15, 2018 by
Chris Cairns
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Just wondering who is chained to who? Don’t answer lols.
We’re tired of being tied to their withdrawal.
Set Yes Scotland free.
Wicked!
John Bullshit, firmly in his place with Hamish looking smug because he knows where the key is hidden.
Brilliant, Chris. Just Brilliant.
Oh Chris, superb… Hamish shackled to his place between Ireland and England at the European table. A drumstick leftover is in with the Christmas spirit… A fish skeleton might have been good too… And John manacling Hamish at the neck. That’s what they think they have now.
The other way round. Westminster has lost it’s place at the top table. Now insignificant. Nebulous.
Scotland will have EU support. If people vote for it.
Blistering
But fair
Bravo
[…] Wings Over Scotland The top table Read the full article:: Wings Over Scotland The […]
Captures the result if the judgement perfectly.
Our Bill was fine when it passed Holyrood.
They amended the UK Bill to make our Bill unlawful in the House of Lords, with no debate in the Commons. Lying cheating, dishonest bastards. How the yoons can countenance this behaviour is beyond my Ken. They really do hate Scotland, the yoons are the slaves. We will have to free ourselves.
They will not let us go, they will not let us go.
And the Maltese flag.
Talk about rubbing it in Chris!
BritNats have zero self respect.
BritNats prepared to receive humiliation on a daily basis, sometimes before breakfast!
The Maybot ” Could you give me some clarity on the dry bone that you have you have just thrown me”?
Politics at its pathetic peak and its all born and bread in England!
Tories don’t know how to negotiate … its their way or no way.
But they have hit a wall this time.
I picked up the word “Interlocutor” from Donald Tusk, and just picked up “nebulous” from Jean Claude Junker. I’m quietly very impressed. But words were used with crosshair accuracy, and added to my personal lexicon.
I wonder how many years I would need learning Polish to know the Polish word for interlocutor, or indeed the French word for nebulous. Our friends in Europe easily put my language skills to shame.
I wonder too whether Theresa May can say please or thank you in either French, German or Polish.
She certainly doesn’t seem to comprehend the Irish either.
Great portrayal of the current situation, which saddens me that given that it is so accurate.
Malta and Ireland at the table just makes the situation all the more unbearable.
Why can’t “proudscotsButs” see what everyone else in the World can…?
Malta and Ireland at the top table. Scotland is the beggar’s dog!
2014 NO VOTERS, just take a moment to let that sink in. That COULD have been us still sitting up there!
Great toon Chris.
Sorry OT
Feck sake RS have Drew Hendry on from Inverness Studio with shit connection.
Absolute bollocks, Gary Roberstson , Bruce MacGregor often broadcast their programs from this studio.
Technical problem my @rse!
Hamish’s tail is still badly broken. What did that John Bull do to him?
John Bull on his knees.
And he may think he has Hamish shackled by the withdrawal agreement…for now…
But you’ll notice,
Hamish is still standing 🙂
Very eloquently drawn. Hamish is clearly contemplating his next move.
Clootie 8.57am . Because they are wearing union jack blinkered glasses. But they will have a day of reckoning coming to them.
@Kangaroo
That Bill amendment has fucked us. Is there anyway, anywhere to appeal this ?
I don’t often comment on the cartoons, mainly because the consistently high calibre would mean writing something every time, but this one has really struck a note. Superb.
Les gilets jaunes d’Écosse…VIVE L’INDÉPENDANCE…ça ira! ça ira!
The Brexit bolus in Scotland’s body politic needs a strong laxative.
Colonial irrigation brings fast relief from Unionism!
Labour on Radio Scotchland we will vote for what we think you want be it Brexit, OR Brexit but we need a general election first and I hope that is as clear as mud.
Tories will ignore the Scottish constituents SNP – connection fails, telephone connection shit. What a surprise!
I don’t think I have ever said this about a cartoon before, but it is actually very moving. 🙁
This is one of your worst ones Chris, by which I mean it’s one of your best 🙂
And by that I mean it is a cartoon of the highest quality, it actually brought a tear to my eye.
Breeks at 856, don’t put yourself down. If you’re Scottish you’re already bilingual. Multilingual if you can speak Doric, too. You think I’m joking? Read some Doric, then have a scan of some of the Skandi languages. Soooooo many similarities.
Breeks – you already know the French word for ‘nebulous’ 😉
Misteralz at 0948
Try Amande’s Bed by John Aberdein for some Doric reading – and the effect of the crushing of the Hungarian Uprising on the working class of Aberdeen in the 1950’s.
Good article in the Herald by Tom Gordon by the way, sets the scene very nicely for the main event 🙂
What a terrific cartoon Chris. Yer some talent man 🙂
Is John Bull playing with his willy?
The English still think the EU are bluffing,,,boy are they in for a shock.
Meanwhile,,,,Scotland continues to be completely ignored.
We hear the opinions of English MPs,, English journalists,,,English this ,,English that…Not a peep about how this mess will affect the people of Scotland or Wales.
This is what happens when you are a Colony of England,,,you have no voice or say in anything.
Dougalentendre, I’ll search that out, thanks!
Chris this is brilliant.
2014. Scotland don’t leave us stay and punch above our weight on the International stage and the best devolved Parliament.Open your eyes Scotland get out as soon as we can we are going to get shafted a lot more if we don’t.
When i asked for the bare bones of the deal i though you would have done a photocopy, how can my Brexitears read anything of that .
Well done Chris on the ball as usual, if you had drew ah few mair bones we could hiv read the runes .
Brilliant and timely.
Hoey and Farage had the wingnuts out in force last night with disgusting dog whistles. They say they are rallying the troops and not to trust “cheating, lying politicians”.
I know, kettles and pots.
I despise Hoey masquerading as a socialist. I don’t know how she was re-elected last year, pictured with bigots all the time.
Spot on Chris nice one, we in Scotland should now be focusing not on what type of deal on Brexit that the PM and Westminster achieve, for in reality that is surely irrelevant to Scots, after the SC/UK government sleekit judgement.
No we should be strongly focusing on how best to implement the next independence vote. For in reality we will be leaving the EU either way but independence will see us re-enter in one form or another.
I believe that we have enough support to win at the polls now, and that leaving the UK not the EU should be our main focal point.
Depressingly true picture of where we are now Chris.
I fear Scotland is being boxed in and there may not be any way we can get out other that the nuclear option of UDI.
I hope I’m wrong and that the SNP (and any other interested parties) have some sort of plan, but I don’t see much, if any, evidence of it.
We are never going to be allowed a recognised referendum by England again – they simply can’t afford it. They will do everything in their power to prevent Scottish independence.
You can be sure they have been watching events in Catalonia with great interest. The lesson learned there is that the EU will stand by and do nothing about a member state imposing a dictatorship against the will of a region that wants independence.
How much easier it will be for England to do that once we are no longer a member of the EU.
I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but I strongly suspect that we are fucked and I don’t see any way out that won’t cause strife.
Now slither off back to your thiefdom and set that wonderful lion free before it tears you apart.
@X_Sticks
Stay happy, hopefully all will be revealed 🙂
Might be your best yet Chris . . . . Really hits the message home
Chris deserves a well earned holiday after this.
@ Breeks – you also know the French for impasse and cul de sac. Where the Tory Party have ended up.
Starting to see the Snp strategy on a people’s vote. Ie theres been no material change in England and only two years since last brexit ref yet in Scotland there’s been four years, a material change plus a new mandate on a second Indy ref. Therefore if people’s vote granted and we are rejected it ain’t going to look good on Westminster and its more ammo for Indy.
Same goes for the sleekit power grab which afronts me the most. Can you imagine the fury in England if the EU ever tried that? Big mistake by Westminster in the long run as no Scottish govt, particularly an Snp one could ever accept that.
Mike Russell, Andy wightman and Joanna cherry in particular have been outstanding of late.
September 2019 for our freedom vote?
X Stick hows it going pal? Long time no see, two things I would say about your comment above,
In our out of Europe , makes no difference, you already mentioned Catalonia so Europe is not going to save us, however we constitionally nothing like Catalonia, unless they are going to suspend voting on Scotland we have a way out. If they tried to suspend Voting in Scotland then off course we could declare we are dissolving the Union. That is not UDI by the way.
Nicola is playing her cards close to chest that is why you cannot see a plan emerging, if we could see it so could the Uk Govt. All the little ducks are being lined up in a row, we have some very good legal brains in the Party , some even serving as MP’s/MSP’s . Unlike 2014 , this time I am confident there is a plan.
Neatly done. 🙂
Now where’s the bolt cutters?
Brilliant, Chris, quite brilliant.
LibDem, Layla Moran, summed it up neatly on Question Time. “If you’re not at the table, you are on the menu.”
Scotland has a bill of fare to whet any appetite, it’s long past time Scots benefited from it.
Hi Lenny – I know there’s a lot going on behind the scenes, but the reality is that if Scotland finds a way then England will be fucked financially and my fear is that they will fight to protect themselves. Next year will be the 100th anniversary of the Battle of George Square and history has a way of repeating itself.
What I’m trying to say is that it won’t be as easy as a simple referendum or dissolving the union and there’ll be nobody at our backs. I hope I’m wrong.
Sums it all up just perfectly, Chris.
O/T
My son was raging this week. Was doing some maths prelims. Teacher handed him the paper (they don’t exactly see eye to eye). Anyway, my son completed the paper and handed it in. What he didn’t know is that, during his exam, his maths teacher went and changed a whole load of the questions on the paper and, as a result, my son failed his maths prelim.
Pure sleekit intit!!
X Sticks stay strong Colin the SC ruling isn’t the end of the matter , any comparison with Catalonia & Scotland should be dismissed ie ( sovereign status ) in all the court cases involving Scotland previously 1953 ect ect , the nuts and bolts of the Treaty of the Union 1707 havn’t been addressed , why ! therein lies our Freedom .
Breeks 8:56 – Nebulous
From French nébuleux or Latin nebulosus.
Proud Cybernat says:
15 December, 2018 at 11:12 am
Sums it all up just perfectly, Chris.
O/T
My son was raging this week. Was doing some maths prelims. Teacher handed him the paper (they don’t exactly see eye to eye). Anyway, my son completed the paper and handed it in. What he didn’t know is that, during his exam, his maths teacher went and changed a whole load of the questions on the paper and, as a result, my son failed his maths prelim.
Pure sleekit intit!!
Aye, and the Returning Officer made sure he couldn’t hand in his paper until the questions had been changed. 🙁
Powerful, eloquent etc. Why this man’s work isn’t regularly featured in the pages The National is beyond me. Shameful.
Lenny Hartley 11:03 – I do hope you are right on Nicola having a plan. I waited in vain during indyref1 for what I thought must be a final assault and nothing happened.
There may be a grand master plan but it certainly does not include promoting the benefits of independence meantime while we wait for indyref2 or how poor the Union is for Scotland. They need a good sales person.
I hear zilch about any message to potential voters on how independence would change anything. All I hear about on most of the media is the opposition message about the “SNP obsession with indyref2”.
The vast majority of people I know have never heard of Wings, although I do recommend it to them. They also seem happy with their current sources of info.
X Sticks says: ‘ England will be fucked financially’…
Which is one reason our First Minister and team are working so hard to save England from the worst ravages of brexshit.
Indy Scotland will want a healthy, happy neighbour, not a huge basket case next door!
Keep the faith X Sticks, we ARE on our Road to Independence 🙂
(ps It was lovely meeting up again with you in Holyrood Park)
I wonder/hope that the Continuity Bill issue and the ‘Supreme” Court’s analysis and ruling will now be passed to the EU Court of Justice,
And yes, the cartoon’s message makes for uncomfortable viewing.
@Footsoldier
In August before the vote, Salmond and advisers did consider changing ths strategy, e.g. currency, but it was going OK and according to their reckoning it would be a YES vote in September. But after the Ref Salmond said it peaked too early, a week before the Ref, and then along came the infamous VOW. With hindsight a different strategy could ahve worked, but then hindsight is always easy!
England’s Bull gets a bone. Scotland gets nothing but deceit from England. But Scotland has friends in Europe.
Angus Robertson’s article today:
link to thenational.scot
@X_Sticks says: 15 December, 2018 at 10:37 am:
” … Depressingly true picture of where we are now Chris.
I fear Scotland is being boxed in and there may not be any way we can get out other that the nuclear option of UDI.”
It is impossible for Scotland to legally declare a UDI. The World recognises that Scots law is independent. This was well shown when both Westminster & the USA attempted to take legal jurisdiction for the Lockerbie Bomber trial. They failed to get legal jurisdiction but there were some compromises in that the trial was under Scottish legal jurisdiction but held in a foreign country but on a site declared to be temporarily Scottish soil.
Also the International Law of the Seas recognises that both the Scottish 12 mile limit and the 200 mile Continental Shelf limit are under Scottish jurisdiction and Westminster will not contest that The People of Scotland are sovereign, even in their own Supreme Court.
A sovereign people cannot declare UDI – but a majority of them can give their elected representatives a mandate to end the United Kingdom Treaty of Union as the Kingdom of Scotland is a fully equally sovereign signatory on that Treaty of Union and that treaty is, (like the Good Friday Treaty), an international treaty.
There’s the problem, the SG/SNP require a recognisable majority of the sovereign people of Scotland to declare the Union has ended.
” … I hope I’m wrong and that the SNP (and any other interested parties) have some sort of plan, but I don’t see much, if any, evidence of it.”
I’ll ignore that obvious unionist pish! Why would anyone, including Nicola Sturgeon, tell the Westminster Establishment what they had in mind for ending the union?
” … We are never going to be allowed a recognised referendum by England again – they simply can’t afford it.”
More unionist pish! We are a recognised, even by Westminster, legally sovereign people. As such we need no one’s permission to do anything a majority of us decide to do, (and Westminster knows it. Which is why they have been brainwashing the people of Scotland since long before there even was a union).
That means you are either successfully brainwashed or a Britnat agent attempting to reinforce the Britnat brainwashing invective.
Poor Hamish, shackled to a corpse!
Thats the problem with Brexit; we cant afford to be neighbours to a banana monarchy that cant grow bananas
During any IndyRef2 TV debates, the YES spokesperson must take each and every opportunity to point to the NO spokesperson and say to the audience:
“This person will promise you anything and everything to win your vote and, if the result has been declared in their favour, they will deliver absolutely nothing. Remember the infamous VOW splashed across the front cover of the Daily Record? Remember David Cameron telling us we’d have the most devolved powerful parliament in the world with a whole raft of extra powers coming to it? And what is the truth that we see today? Remember Gordon Brown telling us we’d be as close to a federal contry as could be in the UK. And what exactly have they delivered? Where have all their IndyRef1 promises taken us? To a situation now where we have DINO – Devolution In Name Only; to having a parliament in Edinburgh where many of the powers it had in 2014 have now been stripped away by Westminster. THAT is what the Unionist promises in 2014 have delivered. THAT is what a NO vote really meant in 2014. And if you vote NO again to their false promises – for that is all they offer – they will go further still. You will hand to these people your very sovereignty for ever more for, I tell you now, they will work to entangle us within this Union so tightly that we will never again have the chance to free ourselves from it. That is what a NO vote will deliver to this country of Scotland. And no country in the history of the entire world has ever so willingly given up their god-given sovereignty. Do not let Scotland become the first to do so.”
The truth is we are sadly still part of the u.k. And we are always on about democracy and fair play well the vote to leave the e.u. Did won but the remainers refuse to accept the result of the vote so we are in this mess to me leave ment leave no deals just leave and the remainers who really should be called the losers are trying to twist things by under the guise of wanting a people’s vote are try to overturn the people’s vote that won trying to claim they are trying to defend democracy by trying to stop a democratic vote and rolling out people like T., Blair A ., Campbell proven liars who should be in jail and V., Cable of the Fib Dems if these are the sort of people you get to put forward your argument then it speaks volumes about your lack of knowledge of our intelligence
“to me leave ment leave no deals just leave”
In Scotland we voted 62% Remain, only 38% Leave.
So, The SG call a referendum, do the unionists recognize it and take part, or abstain?
If they abstain, does the result stand?
X_Sticks says:
“I know there’s a lot going on behind the scenes, but the reality is that if Scotland finds a way then England will be fucked financially”
I totally agree.
“my fear is that they will fight to protect themselves”
With all what they got. They are doing it already. The disgusting maneuver of the English establishment to stop the Continuity bill, the way they rewrote that law in the unelected HoL and applied it retrospectively to steal Scotland’s assets and then having the supreme court judges as the useful idiots to do their dirty work for them was a magnificent example. The way they rewrote that law without Scotland having a chance brings memories of the maneuver of Labour to steal the 6000 sq miles of Scotland’s territorial waters. That was also a dodgy job in the HoL rather than properly being passed in Parliament, so one wonders about the legitimacy of it.
“What I’m trying to say is that it won’t be as easy as a simple referendum or dissolving the union and there’ll be nobody at our backs”
You are not wrong and that is why I believe any presumption that we will be able to rid ourselves of this voracious barracuda without the help of a superpower like the EU is ridiculous. We need the help and he protection of the EU to do this. The English establishment knows this too and that is why they are desperately dragging us out of the EU by all means possible: overruling our vote, stopping our legitimate representatives sitting the negotiating table, rewriting laws by the back door (for me the jury is still out there that this is actually legitimate without a vote in the HoC and consent from Scotland) to use our assets as bargaining chips and keeping them locked in deals so we cannot use them, by ignoring us in TV programs, MSM, by having tories continuously pumping lies and misinformation, by having labour members insulting us and attempting to undermine us etc, etc, etc.
We cannot do this alone. We need help. We are England’s economic life support. We know it, they know it.
“If they abstain, does the result stand?”
That’s their problem. If they don’t vote it just makes it easier for YES to win. I’ll take that. And if YES win a larger number of votes than NO obtained in 2014 then even sweeter – and that CAN’T be contested.
@DanHull
Scotland has loads of friends in Europe (even in Spain), and the world, a psychological boost to getting on with the job. From the outside the United Kingdom appears a ridiculous throwback, living off diminishing prestige.
Returning Scotland to the world stage has never looked more favorable.
This is excellent from speech given by Sir Ivan Rogers, former rep to the EU. Rooted in facts, objectively written, it won’t suit Brexiteers.
Lifted it from Rev’s Twitter. He does an excellent job of sifting through the crap for good pieces.
Know your enemy. Read this, and think just what kind of hole UK will be in, come April, 2019, then think how hard you thought they will fight to preserve those shackles with us, and multiply by 100.
link to news.liverpool.ac.uk
@Robert Peffers.
I’ll choose to ignore your insults out of deference for your advanced years.
I know for sure that I have given everything I can in the cause of Scottish independence and I know other on her know that too.
I’m not just a ranting keyboard warrior, unlike some.
How about the SNP raising a debate at WM:
“As the devolution settlement has been ripped up and the democratic will of the people of Scotland shamefully violated by UK Parliament and the UK Govt,
Would UK Parliament recognise the election of a majority of Scottish MPs on a manifesto of independence as a democratic mandate for Scotland to dissolve the UK Union?
What is the process for the people of Scotland to democratically dissolve this unfair, undemocratic and failed Union?”
Xsticks@10.37am
“Nuclear option of UDI”
Scotland is not Catalonia. Scotland by definition cannot declare or do UDI. Scotland is an existing country that can of course end the Treaty of Union. This is not and never will be UDI. Talk about UDI is just assisting BRITNAT propaganda. Please stop using the term UDI it is counter productive.
If Scotland holds a referendum and the No’s abstain the result will stand. The nae sayers had their chance and failed to take it. Who is to tell an Abstainers from I couldn’t be bothered to vote person. In a referendum votes are counted and the side with most votes wins.
Every time you see how a poor animal advert on TV, replace the animal with Scotland and a lot of the time you will be correct, try it.
From a layperson I always think Scotland’s resources (not the people) is what really concerns whoever is in power in WM at the time, so we call a referendum that the unionists don’t support but they see that the yes result may have international backing if RP is right. Brexit is canceled in panic to save the “precious” but we carry on regardless presenting our yes vote to the rest of the world for recognition.
I have spoken to many Europeans this year and they understand exactly the position Scotland is in mainly because they are informed by an unbiased press. WM no longer has any friends.
What are we waiting for?
Do people really believe that the Claim of Right will save us?
It refers to the Sovereignty of the Scottish people of course, but unfortunately ‘we’ voted to remain British in 2014. Therefore, Westminster will continue to claim that is the staus quo i.e we have affirmed that we are a subordinate region of England/UK.
They will continue in the same way that they have ignored our 62% majority vote in the EU ref on the same basis. This situation will be confirmed when we are out of Europe with no recourse to EU justice .
Unfortunately, because of no counter campaign to convince and inform the general Scottish population of the treacherous and seditious undermining of our sovereignty and democratic rights over the past two years, the chances of a majority for Indy after Brexit No deal looks extremely poor.
Scotland can secede from the Treaty of Union. It cannot UDI from it.
@Lochside
Maybe that’s what we need to make the next independence question.
I want Scotland to become a independent country
or
I want Scotland to remain a vassal state under English rule.
And we should be clear this is English rule, they are changing Scots Law to English Law by imposing laws declared by English MP’s.
“…the chances of a majority for Indy after Brexit No deal looks extremely poor.”
Fortunately, that’s NOT what the polls say.
Without fair representation in all media we have little chance of success. This should not stop us from trying to gain our independence
If it comes to a second referendum on the EU it might be remembered that the Tories will have the power of deciding the question options which I’ve no doubt will NOT be including remain on current terms, it’s more likely to reflect the definite *will* as expressed by the *British* people of leaving the EU in terms of *would you like to leave with A the loss of a leg or B the loss of an arm* the loss of an arm highly likely to be the the stupid deal on offer now so the Brits win anyway
Of course Nigel’s back with his flaming pitchforks and crosses of fire to enrage the *British* public into bad behaviour threatening disruption everywhere no doubt backed up by all the forces of *BNP* and UKIPPY darkness and we know by past experience that the *British* government ALWAYS negotiate with terrorists which Nigel is about to exploit using Englands angry mob to do it
He’s only making plans for Nigel
Nigel plans raising holy hell in England and the media love him so expect to see him on our telly screens and in the papers constantly, but this time he won’t dare come to Scotland
Robert Peffers, You are totally out of order in your attack on X Sticks, if there is one keyboard Warrior on here it is you, albeit understandably due to your infirmity and advancing age.
I know for a fact the incredible amount of Work that X sticks did in the run up to the referendum, dare I suggest that if everybody on here including myself did half the amount of work that X Sticks did, we might have had a different result,
You owe the man an apology.
@Lenny Hartley –
Hear hear.
Chris, somewhere in my essay I use the leg manacle image; it’s so very apt.
Incidentally, have you a Festive publication we can order as gifts? Or can I order from the compendium that already exists?(Askin’ fir a friend.)
Your essential weekend reading:
‘Can Sturgeon Twerk?’: link to wp.me
‘Free City Transport’ link to wp.me
@Robert Peffers
Sometimes people are worried just because they are Robert. And not everyone has decades of party membership and political discussions to call upon.
X Sticks is one of the good guys. I don’t give my wings badge to just anyone.
@ Valerie 1.11pm – a very ineresting read – thx for the link. It is very refreshing to come across the analysis of someone who knows what they are talking about, as opposed to the bravado and bluster of the Boris Johnston faction.
link to news.liverpool.ac.uk
ENGLAND LOVES TO URINATE AND DEFECATE ON SCOTLAND
In its dealings with Scotland, the English Ruling class, only ever do one of two things. Either they will urinate on the Scots, or they will defecate on them instead. Except that, of late, their Colonial hostility and malevolence seem to have increased, and now they prefer to urinate and defecate on Scotland at the same time.
Westminster’s piss & shit policy.
Lochside says:
15 December, 2018 at 1:50 pm
“Do people really believe that the Claim of Right will save us?
Yes
“It refers to the Sovereignty of the Scottish people of course, but unfortunately ‘we’ voted to remain British in 2014”
This does not mean that our claim of right ceases to exist. Not only it has been upheld by the UK parliament recently, but it is precisely the claim of right 1689 that gives legitimacy to the current monarch to hold the crown of Scotland.
“Therefore, Westminster will continue to claim that is the staus quo”
The Status quo the people of Scotland voted for in 2014 has been blown to pieces by the dirty maneuvers of the UK gov and that ruling of the Supreme Court on Thursday.
The Parliament of Scotland and the devolution settlement as stated in the Scotland Act 1998 are the Status quo the people of Scotland voted for in 2014. That Act indicates that all powers that are not reserved are devolved. The Devolution settlement also says that the Parliament of Scotland has primary legislative powers, the powers to pass Acts. That is what the people of Scotland voted for in 2014, that is what they ratified with their vote and those are the circumstances where the people of Scotland agreed to keep the Treaty of Union.
This means that the 24 powers that the crooks in the uK government are attempting to steal from us are devolved according to that Act and belong in Holyrood if they are not in Brussels. That is the status quo the people of Scotland voted for.
So after blowing the devolution settlement to pieces by both stalling a law which was in perfect competency of Holyrood to pass and by bulldozing the part of the Act of Scotland 1998 that claims that all powers that are not reserved are devolved, all done without mandate or consent from the people of Scotland or its legitimate representatives, the present constitutional settlement of the UK is not longer the status quo the people of Scotland voted for in 2014.
Effectively, what that England Supreme court has done by giving more weight to the sneaky re-writing of the Withdrawal Act of the UK by the back door over Scotland’s continuity bill passed withing its perfectly legal competence is to ratify the UKgov destruction of the status quo and with it destroying the legitimacy of the result of the independence referendum of 2014.
So now there is no doubt. It is there in writing. The UKgov has unilaterally destroyed the status quo the Scottish people voted for without a mandate or consent from the people of Scotland.
You cannot simply extrapolate the acceptance of the status quo the people give consent for in 2014 and assume they are going to be happy with whatever sht you want to give to them. Would you be happy if you go to a Mercedes car dealer, purchase a brand new, top of the range car and when you go to pick it up in a week’s time you find that “the status quo” has changed and what your money buys now is simply a second hand Fiat Panda that has been involved in a massive frontal collision? And how would you feel if then the hired attorney of the dealer simply rules that the company is right because they are the ones that had your money?
The people of Scotland gave consent to what was the status quo in 2014, not to the present one that has been fabricated by England tories and that is about to be blown even more with their poisonous brexit. The devolution settlement has been destroyed and therefore so has the legitimacy of that vote.
Now there HAS to be another indyref because the tories in their stupid thirst to grab Scotland’s assets have shot themselves in the foot and threw the baby with the bath water. The supreme court ruling on that paragraph and the actions of the UK government that have unilaterally changed without consent the devolution settlement a posteriori and completely changed the constitutional settlement within the UK have made it a now a democratic necessity to restore the validity of the 2014 vote in light of the modifications both that supreme court and the UK gov have forced upon the status quo done without the mandate or consent of the people of Scotland.
I don’t have any problem with the Scottish. Solid people.
I don’t have any problem with the English. Good people.
I don’t have a problem with the Welsh. Sound people.
I don’t have a problem with the Irish. Cracking people.
I DO have a problem with the British. Stupid people.
Maria F….You obviously didn’t understand the irony of what I wrote. I don’t accept any of the traducing of our sovereignty since 1707. I have commented many times on here on how I never accepted the Supreme Court’s existence or the validity of the either the Indy1 ref result or the EUref ignoring of our democratic vote.
I intended to clarify what we are facing from a Westminster interpretation of our democratic rights…zilch.
Please read what is written before ranting at me as if I’m defending the indefensible please.
Proud Cybernat says:
15 December, 2018 at 1:57 pm
“…the chances of a majority for Indy after Brexit No deal looks extremely poor.”
Fortunately, that’s NOT what the polls say.’
Check the ‘National’…it’s still 53/47%……….
Hi Macart at 2:28 pm.
You typed,
“X Sticks is one of the good guys. I don’t give my wings badge to just anyone.”
I go along with your sentiment. I think X Sticks has been at every march, rally and Wings get-together I’ve been at since 2014.
And typing of badges… ‘Twas X Sticks who presented me with a gold Wings badge at the get-together in Waxy O’Connors in March 2016.
For which I thank him again.
Manandboy@2.37pm
I’m sure a lot of the proudscotsbut yearn for the good old days when it was only one or the other and not both at the same time. Stockholm syndrome in all its glory. They probably blame Independence supporters for annoying their prison guards and making life worse.
Please please just piss on me. That was good. I don’t like both at the same time.
Pathetic creatures.
@grousebeater, 2.23
great post “Can Sturgeon twerk?” You nail it. “We did not elect a Scottish government to save England from itself at our cost. ”
as piping hot 1.37 asks “What are we waiting for?”
The Scottish Government has a mandate to call an Indyref if there have been major changes. There have been two major changes – Brexit and the changes to the devolution settlement (see MariaF,2.51). It is now time to use the mandate.
There was only one question answered in 2014: “Should Scotland be an independent country?”
The NO campaign presented a NO vote as a vote for devolution to the maximum, not just the 1998 devolution settlement.
But, as the EU and indyref campaigns have shown: you can promise everything and deliver nothing. Winner takes all.
The FM has repeated recently that a referendum is the “gold standard” to obtain indy.
We have seen twice: Referendums in the UK are fools gold.
Nothing entertains like the Express! I rarely get beyond their ridiculous headlines, of course.
“General election in UK could trigger FINANCIAL CRASH “
…. says some asshole they’ve found who no one has probably heard of!
Quite honestly though, the big threat right now is a GE!?
Laugh a minute. Where would we be without their comic relief?
I fully sympathise with the anger many on this site have displayed about the shocking way the Spanish government has dealt with the Catalan independence movement. The consequent frustration with what is often seen as the EU’s failure to intervene in the matter is also perfectly understandable.
However, blaming the EU for what is happening in Spain is seriously misplaced. It arises from a misunderstanding about what the EU is, and what it is not. The EU is not a superstate which has colonised, and subjugated, all its member states. It is not a central authority which has the power, or automatic right to intervene in every issue arising in every country that is part of it. It is not a European version of the kind of authority Westminster is currently claiming to have (in some cases falsely, as we know here in Scotland) over all of the constituent parts of the UK.
Unlike Westminster, the EU has a clear and commonly agreed written constitution, which defines and severely limits the powers of those who lead and serve it. What these leasers can and cannot do, and the manner in which they have to go about their business, is not something they can tamper with. They cannot change the rules at whim, or augment the areas and manner in which they can intervene in the affairs of their member states whenever and however they want.
The EU is not a simply bigger or even a better version of Westminster – what we might call Westminster writ large. There is no resemblance at all between Westminster and the EU. Those who are asking the EU to intervene directly in the constitutional affairs of Spain, and directly sort out the very serious internal problem that exists there, are demanding that the leaders of the EU ignore the EU’s own constitutions and act beyond the powers that their member states have granted to them.
In other words, they are demanding that the EU leaders ignore the rule of law, and exercise powers which they do not actually hold over a member state. Which is the very thing we Scots are complaining about in regard to Westminster’s unconstitutional seizure of powers when it tried, by underhand means, to kill off the Scottish government’s essentially correct and legally justified Continuity Bill.
Those who think they are supporting the Catalans by attacking the EU, blaming the EU for its supposed inaction in the matter, are well-intentioned but misinformed. Without realising it, they are unconsciously ‘Britifying’ – i.e. ‘Westmisterising’ – the EU. They are presuming and imposing on the EU a ‘British Unionist / Westminster model’ which does not belong to it.
This is an understandable, but nonetheless a very big mistake. Because, in reality, the EU is a very different kind of thing from the UK. Its institutions – indeed, the EU itself as an institution – have arisen from a very different set of historical circumstances from those which gave rise to the UK, and they are constructed on the basis of a very different set of legal and constitutional principles.
The EU and the UK are not commensurable in any way, and should not be compared. Do not ask the EU to do what it legally cannot do just because the UK feels empowered to act in that way, whenever it suits it, according to what it perceives to be its own interests. The reason for the apparent inaction of the EU in regard to the Spanish government’s handling of the Catalan situation is not because the EU supports the Spanish government, far less because it is simply pursuing its own agenda for its own benefit and for what it perceives to be its own best interests. The reason some of us are tempted to project such motives, pure and simple, on the EU is precisely because that is the way Westminster operates. Westminster/UK, the deliberately undemocratic parliament of the pirate ‘nation’, pursues whatever it thinks are ‘British interests’ both around the globe and even internally (e.g. vis-a-vis Scotland) in every way possible and at any given time. And without reference to any overriding principle other than self-interest (i.e. financial gain and ‘profit’), although some vague, ill-defined and ‘foggy’ (Junker’s ‘nebulous’/ or cloudy) principles may be artificially attached as a fig-leaf. As the necessary camouflage to justify the unjustifiable and self-motivated ventures which then ensue, and the violence which inevitably goes with them, which they then unleash.
All of this carried out with style, of course. From the moral high-ground, with that self-righteous sincerity and, well hid from view, that constant underlying hypocrisy.
It is understandable that those of us brought up within this kind of political culture – so much are we conditioned by it that most people hardly even notice it – tend to project the same kind of modus operandi (way of operating) onto the EU as well. So we are quick to condemn the EU for not condemning matters over which it has no direct jurisdiction, and in regard to which it can only work behind the scenes (which I am sure it did in this case) and not by taking public positions.
This easy and quick condemnation of the EU, where we hold it accountable for matters beyond its control and over which it does not have any direct authority or power of intervention, arises for various reasons. Not least because our knowledge of what the EU is, and how it actually does operate, is so feeble. Nobody ever told us about these things (which does not exonerate us from finding out about them for ourselves).
Meanwhile, the popular press, instead of educating us in the matter, continually bombarded us with stories about how awful and terrible a thing the EU is. Too many of us have swallowed this ridiculous propaganda too easily. And far too naively.
We have to be a bit more critical, and ask ourselves the pertinent questions.
Who wants us to blame the EU for the situation in Catalonia? Who wants us misunderstand the reality of the situation, including the legal restrictions on what the EU can and cannot do, so that we mistakenly make the EU accountable and responsible for things over which it has no power of jurisdiction.
Not only the ‘who’ but also the ‘why’ and the ‘what’ questions. Why does anyone want us to misinterpret the situation in that specific way? Why do they want to manipulate us into hating and despising and opposing the EU? Who profits from that? What will the outcome of such a misunderstanding about the EU eventually be? What are they driving at, these people who want to undermine the SNP’s long-held policy of attaining our independence within the EU, as a full member state?
What objective have they in view? What do they hope to achieve by fostering an increase in the anti-European spirit within the Scottish independence movement? If that spirit becomes more virulent, and gains strength, what happens to the SNP, the only structure strong enough to have any real chance of getting independence over the line? Who wants to exploit this in order to build up a steam – more ‘fog’ – of anti-European feeling, especially within the movement for Scottiah independence? Who wants to divide us on the issue of our relation to Europe and eventual EU membership? And which – and whose – purposes will such division serve?
Who gains from all this?
Those who want independence, or those who want to thwart and strangle it at birth? Or, rather, those who want to kill it off beforehand, making sure it never comes to term?
In short, does the ensuing fog and the confusion which will follow from blaming the EU for what is happening in Spain emanate from the powers of the good? Or are its deep origins from the dark side, which seeks only to confuse and destroy?
And don’t forget the Catalans. It is nice to feel oneself to be on the side of the right and the good, but if that feeling is consolation for me personally but of no actual effect in the real world, what good is it? What will it profit anyone? If no Catalan gains anything from it, what use is it to anyone? Will the Catalans really gain from Scotland staying outside the EU? Or will a Scotland within the EU, as a full participating member state, not be able to have more influence on the Catalan situation, even from behind the scenes, than it would from staying outside it? Even from staying outside it and making grandiose, but totally ineffectual statements about it?
And is there not something else that is being overlooked, on account of misinterpreting what the EU is in regard to this issue? Something that will be very important for Scotland and the Scots if and when we become a full and free member state of the EU. The fact that the EU is restricted in very well defined ways concerning the powers that it can, or cannot. exercise over any of its member states will be very beneficial for us. Also the fact that it works by consensus, so that no one rides roughshod over any one member state. This will be an entirely new experience for us. We have never – NEVER EVER – been in a Union of that nature before. We are going to have to learn a whole new political culture, one that is much better and more modern and more principled and more free than that of the UK. That old, immensely outdated UK, which is so self-evidently and so totally unfit-for-purpose in the world of today.
We will actually, for the first time in our lives, be in a Union (the EU) that supports and enhances our Scottish constitution, instead of being in one (the UK) which continually seeks to undermine and destroy it. That is the reason why the EU could not intervene directly in the internal constitutional affairs of Spain. The EU is obliged to uphold and in no way undermine the particular constitution of each of its member states. And it is only each member state itself, according to its own internal procedures, which can change its constitution or any of its constitutional arrangements. That is the reason why the EU could not interfere in the Catalan issue – because it was a constitutional matter – and could at best only work behind the scenes in regard to it.
And that is a great plus for us in Scotland, as a future member state. The EU will not override in our long-established, centuries-old Scottish constitution, according to which the people are sovereign. It cannot. It is not empowered to do so. Instead it will protect that constitution from interference by any outside party. And that might be very helpful indeed. Especially if, even after acquiring our independence, we might find our southern neighbour having some difficulty to shed its own centuries-long habit of continually seeking to interfere in the internal affairs of our country. And even in its constitutional arrangements, as we know only too well.
Of course, our gaining our independence will also give us the opportunity we need to give modern expression to our centuries-old constitution, on the basis of its founding principle of the sovereignty of the people. The EU will welcome whatever way we, the Scots, choose to define and implement that sovereignty. The member states of the EU all have different constitutions, and the EU respects them all. It does not overrule them, and it does not undermine them. It very much upholds them, and guarantees. This is an expression of the fact that the EU does not have any sovereignty over any of its member states – they are all still fully sovereign, in their own right. And it is freely, as sovereign states, and without detriment to that sovereignty, that they enter into the agreements they make with the other member states, together with whom they form the Union.
It is not that the EU ‘allows’ its member states to have their constitutions and lets each of them define that in the way that they desire. No. If it did that, the EU would be sovereign over its members, and it simply isn’t. The members are all sovereign states (contrary to the entirely Brit-Nat, popular press image of the EU that the anti-EU propagandists continually promote in the UK). Having a constitution, and defining it oneself, is a presupposition – and in that sense, a condition – for any state to become a member state the EU. The applicant has to be a self-governing state in the first place. And if it is self-governing, it must surely have a constitution.
Now, if we need to be educated into a better understanding of what the EU is and is not, we are not the only ones who ought to be on that kind of learning curve. The EU, too, needs to be educated on what the UK is, and what it is not. I expect not many of its leaders have a proper understanding of the UK’s constitution. It is even likely that they are seriously mistaken about it. Once again – as for many of us in regard to the EU – for perfectly understandable reasons.
They do not understand what the UK is, or even what its constitution actually is, because that information has always been conveyed to them by English or Anglo-dominated politicians who speak from a typically English viewpoint. And that viewpoint amounts to a seriously distorted, indeed inherently mistaken view of how the UK was constituted, and what it still – constitutionally speaking – is.
A view which, in short, makes abstraction of the legal realities which underpin the UK and brought it into existence, and which believes instead that Scotland was fundamentally conquered in 1707 – even ‘abolished’, in Mundellian terms – and subsumed into the kingdom of England. In other words, 1707 was the final accomplishment of the project of edward I at the beginning of the 1300s, which it mots certainly was not. The legal texts foundational to the UK, bringing it into existence in 1707, are very clear about that.
England has presumed and propagated that entirely baseless myth (UK = England) all over the world for the past three centuries. In recent times we may be sure that, from the word go, it did exactly the same in all its dealings with the EU. It is not always pure malevolence, but it is a deeply ingrained cultural and political assumption. One that does not bear any scrutiny, because it is based on sand and crumbles before any objective examination of the facts. But there it is – the world, and I dare say many in the EU – have been inadvertently taken in by what is fundamentally a (constitutional) hoax. It is our job – not just the job of the SNP or the SG but all of us – to enlighten our friends in Europe about the constitutional reality of both their soon-to-be erstwhile member state (UK / with England masquerading as such) and their once and future member state (Scotland, once as constitutive of the UK and in future as a free and independent country).
Scotland has a great educational tradition. Let’s all educate, and be educated together …
As a PS, just in case if anyone – even just one – is interested, I put in another input far too late about 3 posts back which will not have been seen by many since everyone had moved on by then. There was one positive comment, for which thanks to geeeo (sorry, I am getting the name slightly wrong). Just if anyone is interested, of course.
Maria F says:
15 December, 2018 at 2:51 pm
Lochside says:
15 December, 2018 at 1:50 pm
“Do people really believe that the Claim of Right will save us?
Yes.
Don’t know if it can save us, but when we finally get our day in a Constitutional Court, the Claim of Right is a pretty damning endictment of Westminster’s Claim to be Sovereign.
But if we are too timid to ask the question, you’re correct. What good will it ever do us?
David Mundell, Scotland’s anti hero working every hour of everyday to undermine our nation!
Robert Peffers your post at 11.53 re XSticks being a britnat or a unionist agent , the names X Sticks no Chopsticks nor candlewicks but his light shines brightly far beyond his Aberdeen domicile & has done for a long long time both on WoS & in the wider Independence movement & at the many Wings nights out ,
Therefor Mr Peffers I will add my voice to those Wingers who are asking for a unreserved apology to X Sticks ( Colin ) & I hope you have the good grace to do that post haste .
Unionists, especially Tories lie. They claim they must uphold the will of the people when a 53/48 poll is taken. They then reverse devolution which was passed by over 70% of the people.
What does this tell you, the will of the people refers to the people of England. The rest can just whistle as far as Westminster is concerned.
The next decision for Scotland can’t be far away now. Let’s hope the campaign can condense the lies and deceit from 2014, the over-ruling of Scotland’s wishes in the referendum and the rewriting of Scotland Laws to suit England are fully revealed. I don’t think we can go down the nice but fair route, their mendacity needs to be at the fore of the campaign.
Lochside says:
15 December, 2018 at 3:01 pm
“You obviously didn’t understand the irony of what I wrote”
Clearly not. it didn’t seem like irony to me.
“I don’t accept any of the traducing of our sovereignty since 1707”
Sorry, I am not sure I follow. Who has been traducing our sovereignty? As far as I know it was upheld in Westminster not that long ago, tories and all. Didn’t you like that I mentioned the fact that it is precisely the Claim of Right 1689 what gives legitimacy to the current monarch over Scotland? Well, I am quite certain that that is the only reason why all those tories that cannot stand devolution or the idea of Scotland being sovereign and having the right to choose a form of government that is not necessarily what England chooses, did not have any other choice than grudgingly vote for it to be upheld.
“I have commented many times on here on how I never accepted the Supreme Court’s existence or the validity of the either the Indy1 ref result or the EUref ignoring of our democratic vote”
Good for you. I am afraid I have not had the pleasure of reading your comments before, nor associating your alias with any type of comments in particular. Please accept my apologies if that fact has wounded your delicate ego. I am sure you will appreciate that older and boring people like me sometimes has other things to do than reading your comments, absorb them perfectly before somehow, archive them in our memories to be certain that we will never doubt your commitment to Scotland whatever you write. Don’t get me wrong, I really wish my memory was that good. Unfortunately it isn’t and you just have to live with it, I am afraid. You may write here tomorrow and I may answer again without having a clue what you wrote here today. It is the content of the comments and not the aliases what attracts my attention, I am that shallow you see. On the other hand, may I ask why is so important for you that others perceive you in a particular way? What do you fear exactly? I couldn’t care less how they see me.
“I intended to clarify what we are facing from a Westminster interpretation of our democratic rights…zilch”
What we are facing? Permit me to correct that: what YOU think we are facing. And yes, I agree, Westminster is totally desperate and will try to pull a fast one as they have done time and time again. Yet I personally think they have blown it this time. They have invalidated the vote of the Scottish people in 2014 because of their greed to grab Scotland’s assets and we should not let them get away with it. The worse Scotland can do is now to let them get away with it because this is the first time they have bulldozed the devolution settlement and we should not let them set up a precedent. If they want to continue with the “new Status quo”, then we must have another indyref to ratify the vote because they have rendered the first vote invalid.
“Please read what is written before ranting at me as if I’m defending the indefensible please”
I think you should lead by example and read what is written before flying off the handle and accusing others of “ranting” at you when the only thing they were trying to do is express an honest opinion of the situation, and actually, not necessarily just directed at you in particular. I was using sections of your comment because a good number of people thinks the same way as you do.
Let me tell you though that my post above is not me ranting not even close. If I had chosen to rant you would not be able to read the comment at all because I am absolutely sure the Rev would have censored my post as toxic. That comment above is me being polite. What you read in that post is the situation as I see it, nothing more nothing less. And the way I see things is not going to change no matter how upset that makes you or how much I am being accused of ranting. You may not like what I have written, but that is just tough.
Proud Cybernat says:
In a Scottish context, I totally agree. They are loyal to an entity which doesn’t care about them.
However, there is another type of ‘British’ in these Isles. Large numbers of the population of London claim to be British i.e. recent immigrants who have settled. If they were in Scotland, they’d be Scottish. However down south there is that really odd (from our perspective) notion that they can’t be English because that’s an ethnicity rather than a nationality.
The more you think about that, the sadder it becomes.
It’s another group of people latching on to something which is in it’s dying days because they can’t adopt the nationality of those among whom they have settled.
Just a reminder, the party that has just changed Scotland’s Laws and ignored our referendum result has never achieved a majority in Scotland for over 60 years.
You can call Scotland a colony or a vassal state, take your pick. The only word you cannot use with Scotland currently is Union, and those that support this position therefore cannot be called Unionists, not sure what to call them.
link to facebook.com
I too have met X-Sticks at the Wings Aberdeen get together and I too regard him as a dedicated Winger and a kind and generous human.
I also appreciate the great contribution Robert Peffers makes and I enjoy reading his detailed expositions of the legal and constitutional niceties. I have learned a lot from Robert Peffers and will always be grateful for that.
But being rude to true wingers is not a good look. A simple apology would be sufficient.
Wull
Didn’t get all the way through that last comment of yours but I get what you said about the EU being unable to intervene in the Catalonian situation but would it have been too much for them to issue a strongly condemnatory statement regarding the actions of the Spanish govt?
Why didn’t they? It’s not as if they’d have had to endorse the Catalan independence movement, all they’d have had to do was simply state that the actions of the Spanish govt were unacceptable, in no uncertain terms.
But they didn’t. Personally I think that the EU stinks (though I voted Remain because the alternative under the circumstances was clearly worse) and is now little more than an enabler for neoliberalism in Europe. However, it doesn’t stink nearly half as much as being out of the EU and stuck in the DisUK would stink.
Which is precisely where we’re soon going to be unless the SNP/SG and Yes movement stop dithering and get their act together.
Maria F… I tried to explain to you that I was being ironic. Unfortunately, you didn’t get it. It doesn’t mean I have got a fragile ego or not. You have now taken up half a page basically agreeing with me.
Whether you’ve read my contributions or not is irrelevant.
But I have to say that arguing Scotland is a kingdom is of no relevance to me. Lizzie Saxe Coburg is a German cuckoo in an English nest who rubber stamps English legislation over us. I would rather use 1707 as a start for the Scottish parliament’s re-establishment and not the ‘devolved ‘ one in Edinburgh’
Brexit has been a magnificent exercise in self harm and a virtuoso performance of internecine incompetence.
It isn’t desirable that Scotland goes its own way it is an essential act of self preservation…anyone got a hacksaw?
@X_Sticks says: 15 December, 2018 at 1:12 pm:
” … I’ll choose to ignore your insults out of deference for your advanced years.”
Please yourself kid but I’m not the one casting doubts about the FM/SG/SNP – you are.
” … I know for sure that I have given everything I can in the cause of Scottish independence and I know other on her know that too. I’m not just a ranting keyboard warrior, unlike some.”
So you claim, yet here you are on an open public forum casting doubts that the FM/SG/SNP don’t even have a plan or have no incentive to act. This, much to the delight of those in the MSM and supporters of the Union who we know do read Wings.
Just who is it you are aiming your doubts at? Is it the unionists to boost their moral or is it the Wingers who you want to discourage?
Oh! And BTW, I did my bit. I’m disabled and ill but spent a lot of hours, and a wee fortune on diesel, driving around Fife with a decorated campervan fitted with a public address system during indyref1. What’s more I’ve been doing my bit since the mid 1940s. So you can stop casting aspersions in my direction.
If you do not want people to doubt where your loyalty lies then take your doubts and fears to the local SNP branch, (they don’t usually even throw out non-SNP members), or go to your local YES or AUOB group and seek assurances there.
Why air them on an open forum and give encouragement to the Unionists? You simply do not wash your family dirty linen in public. Families always squabble among themselves but they do not do so in public.
@Dr Jim – If Nigel does come back to Scotland. I have every intention of following him around and playing Ode to Joy to him constantly. After all he is German.
“Check the ‘National’…it’s still 53/47%. . “
Well you did say “…after Brexit No Deal.” In that particular scenario the last poll I saw (printed in The National and elsewhere) was:
If UK Brexits without at Deal, how would you vote in an Independence Referendum?
YES 59%
NO 41%
And if we Brexit WITH a Deal, how would you vote in an Independence Referendum?
YES 53%
NO 47%
*** EDINBURGH INTERMISSION ***
One is at the top table…
They’re playing Boney M, excellent.
Oh ra Joy!
“Empire is always a looting operation. Discuss” (20 marks)
link to informationclearinghouse.info
Someone needs to get similar figures for Scotland. Never mind begging for what’s already yours – start asking for what is owed.
A couple of years ago it looked like the Caribbean nations were trying to put together a “class action” re : slavery … then there was a fire at the national archives in Kew. Best not to hang around dealing with the likes of these.
asking -> DEMANDING
that’s better. Never submit in haste.
@Lochside says: 15 December, 2018 at 1:50 pm:
” … It refers to the Sovereignty of the Scottish people of course, but unfortunately ‘we’ voted to remain British in 2014. Therefore, Westminster will continue to claim that is the staus quo.”
Cobbler’s Awls! Such an idea is totally undemocratic.
Read this:-
link to whigs.uk
Here is an extract:-
So, by your ideas the Whigs should still have been in power today – However the electorate exercised their democratic rights to change their minds and we have had various different political parties in office at Westminster every few years.
Mind you that soon changed and we have been effectively back to a two party system with little difference between them for many long years now.
The people, not the Westminster Establishment have elected the government of the United Kingdom since those days of 1688. Which is why the Westminster Establishment have, since those days, evolved the powerful Westminster Propaganda machine in order to always have a unionist, “Establishment”, party in power.
There is never any real differences between any of the Establishment unionist parties. When push comes to shove they stop arguing among themselves and unite against their common foes.
Note that there is only Labour Party Lip service paid to opposing Brexit. Just as there is also a common unionist Establishment opposition towards Scottish and Irish nationalism. They are all simply, “The Westminster Establishment”, and unionist to the core.
The Westminster Establishment is like one of those old saloons in the old USA Wild West. A one story dirt floored shack hidden behind an impressive multi-story false front.
Except the Westminster false front is much, much bigger and grander and includes the Royal Palaces and Grace and Favour establishments.
We can either choose to be a member of the EU with the same rights as every other member, or a possession of Westminster to extract the resources from Scotland and ignore the elected representatives of Scotland.
I find it hard to believe that Scots would choose to remain the serfs in their own country.
Maybe we should revisit the arc of prosperity and compare how these countries which were so derided by the No vote are doing compared to the UK now.
I don’t do twatter, but have a wee look at the wings twatter thingy.
The Heil’s comments about Ian Blackford are just par for the course regarding the pathetic excuse we have for media.
I cannot see the Heil reporting about rich tory donors from the Southern shires owning holiday homes in the Highlands.
Pathetic really.
Oh Aye, nice “Toon” Chris
Nicola could announce the new Scottish referendum on Christmas day. Now that really would spoil May’s Christmas.
Time to go for Independence is now. Who care what the lying red,yellow and blue Tories say now is the time. Maximum effort while in the Brexit mess, could push us over the line.
Nicola could announce the new Scottish referendum on Christmas day. Now that really would spoil May’s Christmas.
Time to go for Independence is now. Who cares what the lying red,yellow and blue Tories say now is the time. Maximum effort while in the Brexit mess, could push us over the line.
Robert Peffers says:
15 December, 2018 at 5:09 pm
There is never any real differences between any of the Establishment unionist parties. When push comes to shove they stop arguing among themselves and unite against their common foes.
Which is why, if the SNP ever used a GE mandate for independence, it would be the final nail in the coffin for “Scottish” Labour. Such would be the threat to their precious union, the red tories would have no choice but to side with their blue chums and come to some pretty sordid arrangements. The Britnats’ dirty laudry would then be exposed for all to see (like 2014 all over but even more so now that the Scottish public are more savvy). The result would be tight because the BritNats would work hard together to deny the SNP marginal seats, but BritNat Labour would finally die in Scotland.
Lochside says:
15 December, 2018 at 4:12 pm
“You have now taken up half a page basically agreeing with me”
And why do you think that is such a bad thing? You would rather I had disagreed with you?
“But I have to say that arguing Scotland is a kingdom is of no relevance to me”
And that is of course your prerogative. But it appears to be however of a great relevance for those that claim “Westminster is sovereign over Scotland” as for all the sycophants surrounding the royals and actively fighting against independence, including all those who are salivating at the prospect of receiving their gongs in exchange for their loyalty. I remember how some footballer was outraged when after licking the boots of the royals and “even fighting openly against Scotland’s independence” was not given the knighthood he so much craved for. He was obviously fighting against Scotland’s independence in order to get his gong. So while I fully respect your views, I also think it is important to not underestimate the power of how the royalty and what/who surrounds it are actively fighting against Scotland’s independence and can influence people.
I also distinctly remember in a TV program during the indyref campaign how a devote pro-English establishment and royalist lord or another used, believe it or not, as an argument against Scotland’s independence the idea (passed by him as fact) that Scotland’s independence had to be fought because if Scotland became independent it might become a republic and that would be a tragedy because it would affect somehow the union flag, you know, the blue and the white cross would have to be taken away from the flag. Yes, it was surreal. His reasoning behind his comment was because, according to him, there are far too many republicans in Scotland so the union is really what is keeping the republicans in Scotland at bay and as a consequence what is saving the integrity of the union flag. Stupid arguments like this will proliferate again on the run to our next indyref. Judging by the reactions of some members of the audience after the lord comment, I wouldn’t say they erupted in laughter as I was hoping they would. Some of them appeared totally incandescent at the idea of the blue and the white cross being taken away from the flag. So again, we cannot underestimate the visceral reactions of some people. Every vote counts.
I also think that being a former kingdom on its own right has its implications too when trying to argue the identity of a country as a separate nation that is fighting to separate from another. You would not be able to use the same arguments of unity, identity and heritage in an international court if instead of being a kingdom on its own right for a significant amount of time it had been just something that had been annexed by other kingdom. In our particular case is of even more importance because the kingdom of Scotland was a sovereign state on its own right when it entered the Treaty of Union, so should that treaty be dissolved and it would revert to its former status. You may not be concerned about it being a “kingdom” and I understand that as the monarchy is in my view a time warp that does not belong in the 21st century, but I guess that we certainly would be concerned about Scotland recovering its full former sovereignty and if being a kingdom helps with that, bring it on. Once we gain independence the people of Scotland will be free to decide if they want to continue having a monarch or not.
“Lizzie Saxe Coburg is a German cuckoo in an English nest who rubber stamps English legislation over us”
That may well be the case, but it is that Claim of Right 1689 that gives her legitimacy over the Scottish throne. She may “just” rubber stamp English legislation over us, but this time, in my opinion, she has overstepped the line by not “rubber stamping” our continuity bill and by “rubber stamping” instead the UK bill that includes the power grab, even when this was passed months after our continuity bill, without Scotland’s consent and only because the UKgov acted as an absolute ruler by stalling our bill to bite time to pass theirs.
“That all Proclamationes asserting ane absolute power to Cass annull and Dissable lawes … are Contrair to Law”
This is in the Claim of right that gives Lizzie the right to hold our crown. Claim of right that not only has been upheld by Westminster but that is also embedded in the Treaty of union 1707, the treaty that gives legitimacy to this union. So, has she failed in her duty to protect and respect Scotland’s law?
“I would rather use 1707 as a start for the Scottish parliament’s re-establishment and not the ‘devolved ‘ one in Edinburgh’
Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you mean by “I rather use 1707 as a start”. What makes you think they are different? (I am not having a go at you, I am just asking because I am curious and would like to know your view). I consider them the same because when the current parliament in Edinburgh was opened, the words of Dr Winnie Ewing were:
“I want to start with the words that I have always wanted either to say or to hear someone else say – the Scottish Parliament, which adjourned on March 25, 1707, is hereby reconvened.”
This has been published by the BBC itself:
“Winnie Ewing reconvened the Scottish Parliament for the first time in 292 years”
from
link to news.bbc.co.uk
Also published by The Independent and the Scotsman in May 1999, so it is widely accepted that the Parliament of Scotland was not created de novo but it was reconvened in 12th May 1999. It is England who does not have a functioning parliament.
Why do you view it differently? Is it because it does not have the same amount of power than what it had in 1707?
Nicola could announce the new Scottish referendum on Christmas day. Now that really would spoil May’s Christmas.
Time to go for Independence is now. Who cares what the lying red,yellow and blue Tories say now is the time. Maximum effort while in the Brexit mess, could push us over the line.
If May calls a general election even better, the SNP should put Independence as part of the EU as their goal.
If they achieve a majority of Scottish MP’s and the SNP and Greens combined achieve 50%+ of votes cast in Scotland, then they should declare Scottish independence with a mandate from the Scottish people.
Y’know, I’ve tried. I’ve really, REALLY tried, but I’m only human. When someone shows you nothing but contempt. Directs insult upon insult toward everything you hold dear. Puts you, your family, your friends and your community in harms way for the sake of personal/political advantage. Acts toward those in their care with ignorance, arrogance and a total lack of empathy. How is any reasonable human being supposed to react to that kind of treatment?
Neither the Conservatives, nor their on again/off again chooms in Labour, are friends of the population. Any population. What they’ve both done to their own, to those in their care, those who trusted them? Should never be forgotten. (The forgiveness bit is up to the individual, but memory should be collective.)
What they’ve done to the very concepts of trust, community and yes… unity, is beyond appalling. They didn’t do it for us. They did it for party. They did it for power. They did it because they could, but most most hurtful of all? They did it for themselves and they did it with our help. The gawd awful and punitive legislation, the harm they used the public’s vote to undersign should shame all of society.
Westminster, those parties which support its horrendous system and their practice of politics are beyond the pale and have been for way too long.
We put this right. We clean our house and we clean our politics up, because those… bastirts … certainly won’t do it themselves. We make Scotland a country fit for human beings with conscience and empathy.
We WILL get our chance. Our government WILL reflect the preference and the needs of the people and we CAN make that a reality.
Believe it.
Perhaps when posting ironic comments it should have IRONIC POST at the top.
This will have the benefit of saving a lot of time and energy.
Wull @ 3.37. What an excellent post!
@Macart
Amen to that, we will get our chance all right. Let’s hope we can persuade enough that weren’t convinced first time around and make sure that next time we grab that chance with both hands.
@Mcart
I have to say thank you for your latest post.I agree with every word.
x sticks
just ignore the old duffer
Tis the evening in Edinburgh…
Ahm still at the top table, aye ain’t bluffin’.
Aye have the KEY to Glasgow.
Did you know that hehe.
Taps aff Saturday.
Macart @ 5.44, very well said Sam, hit the nail squarely on the head. I am so sick fed up of all the nonsense going on around us, had a bellyful of it to tell the truth.
I long to live in this new Scotland of ours, I know it’s difficult to maintain hope at the moment, but surely, surely the end of this buroch is near.
Hey ?, dance the night away!
Sorry you’re reduced to a picture there, my tablet translates you literally..
For all of us fretting and champing, sometimes feeling a bit
powerless..
It may for us be as soldiers
perceive their general when confronting an enemy thus; they had to trust that he and his advisors knew what they were doing.
Trust.
Without that trust we bicker and fear.
Think of the higher prize.
If Nicola had not blown it, it would have been independence for Scotland in March 2019 and Brexit (or not) for England.
Now Hamish will remain the underdog at Westminster till 2640 AD.
Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):
“Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.
The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.
But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.
It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.
Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.
Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.
If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”
Proud Cybernat says:
15 December, 2018 at 4:32 pm
Sorry the 59% and 53% was not to a question on voting intention in
Indyref2 the question which gave those figures was along the lines off do you think an Indy Scotland would be better off than staying in the UK with a No deal or a negotiated deal Deal, and 59% said Scotland would be better off than a no deal and 53% with A negotiated Brexit Deal (not necessary May’s Deal)
The Indy question was asked before those options were asked. There are probably a few more details to come out on tomorrows Sunday Times as there were a few more questions than I have seen reported asked.
@Rock:
Please could you come up with something original?
Drinks at 7 fortuitously, ah’ve already started.
Tap table somewhere in Edinburgh.
Ahm on the stage.
On an elevated level.
Aye just walked thru a door.
The People look happy 🙂
Cac tus, I wid keep that tap oan tonight pal!
Macart says:
15 December, 2018 at 5:44 pm
“We WILL get our chance. Our government WILL reflect the preference and the needs of the people and we CAN make that a reality.”
Any idea when?
I am certain it will be in 2640 AD.
If you have an earlier date in mind, I would be most interested to know.
Okay Edinburgh, aye dare you… ahm gonnae head back round to Cameron B Brodies bar. Left NOW ahm in a place in Edinburgh… ye know that way when you go to an unknown bar and before you come back out… YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHERE YOU ARE, OR BASIC GEOGRAPHY?
OPEN THE. DOOR… Ahhh the Joy!
High on The Mile like.
What’s yours?
Pete Barton says:
15 December, 2018 at 6:24 pm
“@Rock:
Please could you come up with something original?”
Do you believe that Westminster will grant a Section 30 order for a legally binding independence referendum anytime soon?
Do you believe that Nicola will defy Westminster and hold an independence referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster?
These are the only two questions that matter this side of 2640 AD.
Times …
“Labour would fall behind the Liberal Democrats in the polls if Jeremy Corbyn helps the Tories to secure Brexit, according to a huge new poll.
The YouGov survey of 5,000 voters, commissioned by the People’s Vote campaign, shows that support for Labour could fall from 36% to 22% if they helped the Tories to pass a compromise deal with Brussels like the one advocated by Theresa May.
Under those circumstances, the Lib Dems would soar from 10% to 26% — their highest rating in any poll since they entered coalition government with the Tories in 2010.”
Rest behind paywall.
That doesn’t surprise me. Tory voters want Brexit, most others don’t.
Labour would be stupid to facilitate Brexit.
Good evening Pete, how ye doin’…
Ahm inter-continental-mainland.
What ye daein’ for ra bells?
As ahm aye.
The ice cap is melting, England will have disappeared below the waves long before 2640 AD. I predict Scotland will be the last Kingdom standing.
X_Sticks says:
15 December, 2018 at 10:37 am
“Depressingly true picture of where we are now Chris.
I fear Scotland is being boxed in and there may not be any way we can get out other that the nuclear option of UDI.
I hope I’m wrong and that the SNP (and any other interested parties) have some sort of plan, but I don’t see much, if any, evidence of it.
We are never going to be allowed a recognised referendum by England again – they simply can’t afford it. They will do everything in their power to prevent Scottish independence.
You can be sure they have been watching events in Catalonia with great interest. The lesson learned there is that the EU will stand by and do nothing about a member state imposing a dictatorship against the will of a region that wants independence.
How much easier it will be for England to do that once we are no longer a member of the EU.
I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but I strongly suspect that we are fucked and I don’t see any way out that won’t cause strife.”
I can assure you the way out is going to happen – in 2640 AD.
Just a bit more patience pal.
Hey Pete, ah’ve got ma feet up on the public house table.
Ahm gaun tae the top n over it.
As are we.
Coyote.
X.
What on earth is going on?
Some of Robert Peffers’ most diehard sycophants daring to request an apology from him?
Some of us can say things with foresight rather than hindsight.
Lochside (2nd February 2015 – “The lost art of keeping a secret”
“Robert Peffers you are a pedantic bore. However, you have a wee fan club of sycophants who are making this site a no go for proper discourse and discouraging new contributors.
Anyone who disagrees with your meandering musings on the origins of the meaning of ‘British’or ‘Britain’is treated to frankly insulting contempt in return and treated as a potential ‘troll’.
So please, go and write a book about ‘Britain’ and define it until you disappear up your own fundament.”
Rock (2nd February 2015 – “The lost art of keeping a secret”
“Well said.
Everytime one of these ‘sycophants’ post, the tone of the debate is *ahem* lowered.”
Cairnstoon.
Watch as the camera draws diagonally back and pans to the left to see the other cool EU folks. And what a sight to see the difference.
Our international neighbours can see the difference between us n them.
Any recommendations for Italian food in E…?
Ken500 says:
15 December, 2018 at 7:52 am
“Scotland will have EU support. If people vote for it.”
Any idea when the people of Scotland will be given a vote, this side of 2640 AD?
@Rock
SNP always seems to be caught napping. Who’s running the joint MI5? They couldn’t do a better job than the current ‘leadership’.
56 mps/50% vote. Sturgeon’s doleful epitaph.
The NS fan club is losing members.
Back to zero? Press the reset.
@ One_Scot at 9.45 – “tear in my eye”. Same here – really sad to see England/Britain self-harming and still mis-treating Scotland.
The criminal thing is the way the MSM have been allowed to pour poison into the minds of so many people for decades and the Establishment have permitted it. I’m beginning to think that it is the fault of the party system that has at last reached the point, for unknown reasons, where the quality of MPs is so poor that they are just lobby-fodder, doing what the whips tell them.
There is no choice for voters – it is either a stuffed puppet wearing a blue rosette or a red rosette. Each party follows the same policies of undermining the welfare state and civil service, whilst allowing free-rein to an unfettered banking system and multi-national corporations.
If there was no party system then voters would have to consider the abilities and character of the candidates rather than vote blindly for the party label.
And once elected the MPs would have to learn to co-operate and think about governing for the benefit of the voters rather than themselves as there would be nobody handing out “plum” positions.
It is shocking to see how quickly this decline in standards, and the resultant corruption and destruction of the quality of public administration and policy, has occurred. It has only taken about 30 years.
But this means there are millions of voters who don’t know that it doesn’t have to be like this. Everyone under 40 years old won’t have any idea of what we had before – strong trade unions, proper employment rights, decent welfare benefits, decent wages. We need to inform them.
They won’t know about McCrone or the loss of 6000 sq miles of our seas either.
There’s an awful lot of information we need to share but I still think that we will get a majority vote to rescue Scotland from being unjustly and corruptly ruled by Westminster. Once a date is given for the vote then we do what we did last time but now enough people will know that Better Together lied last time and cannot be trusted. It’s only 5% we need.
By the way, does anyone know whether Scot Gov has the power to say that only Scottish parties can stand in Scottish elections? Our ballot paper for a council by-election had Scottish Conservatives, Scottish Labour and Scottish LibDems on it. No such parties exist so why does the Electoral Commission allow falsely identified candidates?
YES!
Any questions?
Unionist trolls and the resident drunk.
I can’t be bothered with this.
How Rock is not banned from this site is beyond me.
Hey top table, peekaboo aye see you, can you see me?
Cameron’s bar.
Good buzz.
O/T
As a signed up member of Scotland In Union it makes Ken Mackintosh unsuitable to hold the position of impartial Presiding Officer of our Parliament.
If the above is true then was it right that he did this should he now be forced out of his position as it shows up his bias against the Scottish Government.
Holyrood Presiding Officer Ken Macintosh wrote an official memo saying the bill was “not within the legislative competence of the parliament”.
It’s started snowing…
Praise be.
Sarah @ 7.06pm
“”No such parties exist so why does the Electoral Commission allow falsely identified candidates?””
I think the terms Scottish Labour etc are registered with the EC as logos which allows the candidates to be touted as Scottish Labour etc when in reality they are Labour etc.
In light of the SC Ruling on the Continuity Bill, the Scottish Parliament’s Presiding Officer, Ken Mackintosh should:
67% Resign
10% Be suspended
10% Apologise to Parliament
13% Explain his behaviour
1842 votes cast. Closes tomorrow, midnight.
link to twitter.com
Ghillie, Ghillie, Ghillie…
Where be you?
Hey Marga, hope ye had a groovy time here in the big city…
Next time babes…
Apprendre.
X_Sticks says:
15 December, 2018 at 10:37 am
Your comment is more or less what I have been saying for more than a year.
Although I tend to be very diplomatic in the language I use.
Never the “f” word, never the “t” word, never demands to anyone to stop posting.
@ George wood: I empathise with you.
However, I don’t make the rules here, Stu does.
Like you, I am a reader, a watcher.
Some comments I don’t like or agree with perhaps, but in the end this is the best site we have for informative exchange.
@ Cac tus, party on friend, even if you don’t do the strictly highbrow political input, your input and take on life is refreshing.
@Rock: neither of us have a crystal ball, so your guess is as good as mine.
In these dark days it can be hard to keep positive.
Corny though it may seem, Bruce’s spider just kept mending the net
It had no concept of events beyond it’s ken.
Rememberthat Rock, when you wallow in your caustic negativity.
Cheers Pete and cheers to you.
Ahm on the mile.
Annit aint green.
It’s snowing!
Abulhaq says:
15 December, 2018 at 7:05 pm
“@Rock
SNP always seems to be caught napping. Who’s running the joint MI5? They couldn’t do a better job than the current ‘leadership’.
56 mps/50% vote. Sturgeon’s doleful epitaph.
The NS fan club is losing members.”
If blind faith in religion is bad, blind faith in politicians is worse.
The only thing the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here have to offer is blind faith in Nicola.
I hope they have a Plan B in mind when it becomes clear that Nicola is not going to offer a second independence referendum before 2640 AD.
Since the Supreme Court ruling, should we replace the term Unionist with Colonist?
Pete Barton says:
15 December, 2018 at 7:44 pm
“@Rock: neither of us have a crystal ball, so your guess is as good as mine.”
As a “sovereign” Scot, surely you have some guts to go on the record with your guess?
*** THIS IS YER SECOND INCOMING INTERMISSION ***
Show us yer passion Scotland…
What do U Love?
And WHOM do ya?
Yep, I’ll join in. x_sticks has had a huge input in yes campaigning. Also, he is an extraordinarily kind and generous person.
Everyone gets a bit down at times. I find looking at the overseas press for mentions of Scotland helps. There is now a far greater understanding of Scotland’s constitutional position and as the Tories trash the UK’s credibility and vestiges of respect worldwide, Scotland is mentioned more and more.
I fairly recently read a magazine article about Merkel’s career in which they posited that Nicola was the one to watch with ability to occupy her dominant role in european politics.
Unfortunately, I didn’t save it and I’ve no idea where it was, pretty sure it was in french.
Let’s also not forget that at the recent UN climate conference. Not only was oor lassie invited to represent Scotland (despite us not being a member in our own right), she was seated beside the secretary- general. Of course, that was not the first time she has been invited to an UN conference.
So I reckon we will have a lot of welcoming friends who are expecting and preparing for us to be independent. Whereas Westminster is heading for the schadenfreude-on-which-the-sun-never-sets.
You called it cearc xx.
Ahm in Whistle Binkines…
Come and join fun.
Say hi first.
Ahm shy.
2 ra top.
@ Legerwood at 7.39
Thank you for the info that “Scottish” Tory/LibDem/Labour are permitted by EC as being logos.
I had an idea that electoral matters are “devolved” so perhaps Scot Gov could ban parties whose legal existence is outwith Scotland. AND forbid funding from outwith Scotland.
That would set the cat amongst the pigeons and would draw attention to the extreme oddity that permits outside parties and funding to stand in Scotland-only elections.
Robert Peffers:’So, by your ideas the Whigs should still have been in power today’
No Robert…as per usual, you take something out of context and use it as a battering ram to ‘straw man’ a viewpoint i.e. my point. Again, as I pointed out to you several years ago,’de facto’ i.e. actual political action is different from ‘de jure’ i.e rightful entitlement. Instead of what should happen, what actually happens. ….but we’re back to irony again…which upsets a lot of people on here more than fact apparently.
Maria F. We actually agree on much. You ask me why do I feel 1707 is more important than 1603. Well in 1688/1690 there was a coup de tat led by the English Parliament which usurped the sovereignty of the Stuarts. A replacement was placed on the English throne by the English Parliament. Unfortunately, the Scottish Parliament agreed to this sectarian arrangement. Hence for instance, no RC can be sovereign.
Since then the musical chairs of monarchy have landed us with a Germanic Saxe Coburg succession which has no real legitimacy nor real political actual de facto power, but is used as a de jure rubber stamp for English supremacy over the rest of the ‘uk’.
Our monarchu has been banished into history and obscurity. And therefore is irrelevant. The political Act of Union was formed in 1707. Since then universal suffrage determines who rules. That is where our real Sovereignty lies. Therefore, we must exert that sovereignty in Westminster by whatever means are necessary.
@Rock:
Surely you know the difference between Scottish national sovereignty and personal power.
Question.
– Whit happened to breakfast… aye did it
– Lunch… whit’s that?
– Dinner… at some point.
Aye fucking Love Scottish politics.
That’s the 1st furra long time ah’ve sworn on the holy Jesus.
My fucks are all unassociated.
Shit, new crowd…
Every time you see the sun rising, think will it feel brighter to you in an independent Scotland. YES
wull @ 15:37,
Just catching up on the thread again, and I have to say this is probably the best posting I’ve ever read on WoS, among some very good postings indeed. Long as it is, it covers all the bases with rare truth, honesty and perspicacity. (The direct antihesis of “nebulous”. =grin=)
Including a very pertinent question that is rarely if ever asked: who benefits from attacking the EU right now? When it isn’t the loony-right BritNat media or the divide-and-rule black ops, it’s the bandwagon-jumpers who don’t give a damn about independence but are cynically using it as a convenient platform for their own private agenda.
George Wood@7.23pm
I would rather have one drunk independence supporter posting on Wings than all the sneaky nasty Britnat phoney Independence supporters.
There certainly are a lot of sneaky Britnats posting tonight. Rockshit is, as often is the case, stinking the place out with his boring Britnat crap and infantile Nostradamus predictions.
I feel independence is so close and so essential and necessary for the wellbeing of the peoples of Scotland that some of the bletherings here akin to debating angels on a pinhead is just sad.
Takes deep breath.
Perhaps the sad parts are interjected by people who do not support independence but pretend they do.
For me I want independence to be a broad political church but all parties supporting a bright future for our children.Yes I wish to rejoin the EC but as a friendly club not as the vassalage experienced in the UK. How Ireland was supported by the EC really opened my eyes and I saw brotherhood and not servitude.
Yes,I do support our First Minister and will continue to do so until Independence is achieved.
x-sticks and I had a conflab earlier and have pencilled in Feb for a wee gathering in Glasgow.
Abody invited. Probably Counting House at ‘George’ Square, date to be confirmed.
😉
I think that all the britnat trolls that foul this website should hang their heads in shame and stop polluting this site.
They must surely know that Scottish indepence is inevitable as the uk is doomed to shortly fragment due to the rise in English nationism.
The Scottish people have had their eyes opened by the supreme court ruling and the britnat shenanigans.
Like most of the people in Scotland I have the utmost confidence in our first minister Nicola to bring about our freedom from foreign rule.
Saturday…
Look around ye.
Love it.
We know what you mean:
“Look Aboot Ye”
As enblazoned on the Kincardine Bridge to Clacks.
I’ve spent some time on catching up on this thread.
As several have said, X_Sticks has unimpeachable credentials as a Winger: I’ve met him several times on marches and on anti-BBC demos. He has every right to express his misgiving and at the moment I share many of them.
Lochside has always made sceptical but intelligent points and he has a long pedigree on here. Ditto as per his misgivings. I want an SG which is outraged at our being ripped out of the EU, despite voting 62% to remain. I don’t expect this:
link to mobile.twitter.com
Is this for real? I’m not interested in mitigating Brexit for the English people who voted for it, despite it being perhaps an SNP brownie point position about “exhausting our options” pre Indy2. Rudd is one of the nastiest Tories so why are we cosying up to her? Trust a Tory? What are you thinking, Joanna?
It’s all very well for the FM to wish to have a wish list for a SM and CU position on Brexit, but the Tories will never consent. Why have we not been screaming about being dragged out of the EU during the last 18 months?
At this stage we need an emotional response to our EU position as much as some cold legalistic argument which ultimately will be ignored by Treeza and The Orcs.
Why are my rights as an EU citizen being trampled upon while the Tories continually change the goalposts and piss all over our Law?
Asking for a nation.
Just a quick one to add to the favourable comments about Wull’s contribution at 3.37 above.
😉
The fact that our ‘resident’ Britnats are infesting the site even more than usual does tend to suggest that they are even more worried about the impending Indyref – good, keep it up, chaps!
Think NOW.
Remember laters.
Yes2.
@Ian B 9.01: forgot to say that I would hope to make any date about that time.
May dust down my fedora.
@Ian B
Glasgow.. Sounds good. I’ll keep my eyes open for updates. Back to Lambrini time. ?
Tis thyme to head back HOME Scotland…
Ah’ve scared maself enough.
Glasgow callin’.
Aye do.
Its about time Hamish turned and kicked the f&@£?r right in the bollocks.
There she goes again…. Playin live.
Ra Big things are comin’
As long as aye believe.
Choose yur wheel Lovers.
Factory wall.
Aye got soul but ahm not a soldier, sister.
Various analyses and comments are four-square, or at least 3.75 square, that Holyrood was correct in the Continuation bill it passed. And that it was Westminster that took pains to prevaricate, delay, and pass sand-bagging legislation to divert Scotland’s rightful demand for returning EU rights passing to Scotland.
So. Where now? My feeling is that Indyref2 is now a distraction as WM has very specifically broken the 1707 Treaty of Union wide open. WM has overridden plain statements in the Treaty that Scots law is paramount in Scotland, etc. That treaty can no longer be in force.
The what-to-do-now should shift to international efforts to get our new position recognised out there in the world’s important forums.
With international understanding and support Scotland then needs to state its independence.
Sure, with intransigence from down south the desired normal negociations might be unforthcoming or awkward at the least and we will always hope they do not resort to sending in troops.
Suffice to say the lid of pretence that WM has a natural right to control Scotland is gone, but this is not yet widely understood.
Tinto Chiel
@9:28
Tinto the Tories will never go for that. In my opinion Joanna is not tending a helping hand to the tories at all, on the contrary, she is tending them a rope with a noose. The referendum Joanna proposes (remain vs Teresa’s crap deal) will most certainly give a victory to remain besides bringing a revolt in England among the brexiteers that will demand what they were promised.
And with a victory for remain here comes back all the EU regulations including the EU tax avoidance laws, which was, in my view, the main catalyst for the referendum in the first place. All those important names that popped up in the Paradise and the Panama papers will not be amused.
I am convinced the tories are after a “no deal”, which secures the avoidance of those laws and gives them full control when re-writing hundreds of laws. I think the deal is just a hoax to make the “no deal” more palatable. The deal is not popular with the tory moderates, it is not popular with the tory brexiteers, it is not popular with the DUP, it is not popular among some Scots tories, it is not popular with the opposition nor with the public. Nobody appears to want the deal.
If the tories will ever agree to a people’s vote it will be one that does not include the option of remain on it or one that has the option of “no deal” instead of the deal. Until the resolution of the ECJ, things were going tickety boo for Theresa which was counting her chickens when presenting the MPs with the only two “options”: crap deal with backstop vs no deal with full control over the borders. The ECJ changed the game so now their problem is how on earth to get rid of the “remain” option.
I don’t think the vote is going to happen, to be honest. The tories will have to be pushed out of power before accepting such vote and even so, Corbyn does not agree with the vote either. I think it is a non starter.
Now you see it, now you don’t 😎
@Tinto Chiel –
Well said indeed.
The ’emotional’ response is often downplayed or even derided, as if it signifies irrationality and/or confusion.
As if there aren’t plenty of other things to get ’emotional’ about!? FFS, I can recall conversations with people, even close friends and relatives, who give me ‘the look’ if I bring up anything to do with politics. It’s as if they pity me, that I’m an unreachable nerd for even having an interest in such dryness.
They don’t get it, and a lot of them never ever will. That attitude – “I just don’t *do* politics!” – has become an acceptable comfort-blanket for otherwise intelligent citizens who know deep-down that their lack of engagement is, in fact, a form of cowardice. Hence the denial, the anger when pressed to acknowledge their own lack of responsibility, and the abuse which then greets anyone who dares ‘get above their station’ by expending energy on stuff which isn’t really ‘their business’.
We happen to have been born in a revolutionary period and have wonderful tools at our disposal which were the stuff of science-fiction just a few decades ago. Many of us had scant knowledge of Scottish history and constitutional affairs before becoming regulars on this place, but now, knowing what we *do* know, there is a clear duty on us to right an historic wrong.
You have quoted Steinbeck before, his line that Scotland is ‘an unwon cause’. It can be overwhelming, the realisation that such a duty falls to us, but that is the logical terminus of any objective analysis. It is then that the ’emotional’ drive becomes vital, providing the energy to help each other through these final stages. The logic and emotion go hand-in-hand, and here on WOS we have, between us, more than enough of both to get over the line.
@Maria F: I wish I were so sure about any future vote. I have heard so many English fruit loops on Radio 4, even supposed Remainers, saying, “Let’s just get on with it, we’ve voted already,” etc.
I agree May has always wanted the Tory Dream of crash out Brexit but we have to act before then and harness our EU voters. We need clarity on where we stand: that’s for independence and our rights as EU citizens, which are being ignored and crapped at the mo.
Yes, Ian, as you say, a lot of this is emotional. It’s no surprise SNP membership went up when the PP walked out of the WM cesspit. I’m being dragged out of the EU by a bunch of Tory gangsters, aided by a corrupt and compliant MSM and it’s time the SNP reminded everyone how deeply undemocratic this is. I think at least the 62% of Remainers would be energised by this. Instead we get debating points about how nice it would be to stay in the SM and the CU. We need an emotional rallying point to make people think, “Hey, that’s right, this is shit!”
And don’t forget, about 75% of Scots voted for devolution, yet the Tories have just committed a massive power grab on that institution. This is complete crapola, and we need a campaign to highlight this.
Nice gets you nowhere.
Tinto Chiel @9.28 well said, I feel pretty much this way myself.
Why are the Tories now willing to reach out to other parties. Because they can’t get their own bloomin deal through parliament, well tough.
They have totally ignored Scotland, we have never even been a consideration on their horizon. Only time the thought about us, they had to cheat and move the goalposts to decry our continuity bill. I don’t see it as our job to save England from itself. Our government needs to tell us what it IS doing on our behalf to retain our EU citizenship, after all we voted by 62% to remain. I believe it’s an even higher percentage now.
It’s all very well the SNP playing clever games, we all understand why, but now time is rapidly slipping away from us. If they are not careful we’ll miss the boat altogether.
Now I’ll probably get a telling off from Robert Peffers, but I’m normally a very patient soul, but my patience is now becoming very, very thin.
Ach, in those famous words:
“We ain’t seen nothing yet”.
WM Parliament will NEVER allow a no deal Brexit. Business is against it
There was a Yorkshire Lamb farmer on the radio today who said that without a deal there would be a 90% tariff on his meat. The livestock industry creates over £100 billion for the economy and employs 4 million people. Without a deal there will have to be a mass slaughter of animals as they will be unsaleable, livelihoods will be ruined, local economies will collapse – not just here, worldwide!
WM will not allow T May’s deal through – DUP oppose the backstop.
There is a hard border in Ireland with No Deal.
We have to hold a second referendum – for T May’s deal v Remain.
The leave campaign has already started campaigning and it’s slogan is ‘tell them again’.
Remain must win. WM cancels the EU Withdrawal Bill which then cancels WM appropriation of the ability to over-rule Holyrood.
A second EU referendum being held annuls the argument about never having a second Indy ref.
If Article 50 is revoked, ECJ remains the final arbiter and so we go to them to have our Sovereignty upheld.
There have been enough material changes in the way WM has ignored, plotted around, cheated and over-ruled Scotland to justify another Indy ref. This time the EU witnesses.
Pressure is on T May this weekend to hold a vote on her deal before the Christmas recess.
Absolute minimum is Article 50 extended whilst another vote is organised.
If Scotland votes remain again, with nobs on this time, maybe that will be an extra handle on the mandate for a second Indy ref. Scotland is resolute it wants to stay in the EU.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit.
Ahm at Platform 17 on the return, Edinburgh.
To ra city.
Mines
Glasgow.
@Tinto Chiel
I think Maria F is quite accurate, SNP are playing canny. I’ve spent some time listening to LBC.
England will melt down if there is a remain vote in a new brexit ref.
We must be ready for wherever this leads.
Heading HOME.
Aye don’t if you can see…
Glasgow callin’.
Aye can.
“They don’t get it, and a lot of them never ever will. That attitude – “I just don’t *do* politics!” – has become an acceptable comfort-blanket for otherwise intelligent citizens who know deep-down that their lack of engagement is, in fact, a form of cowardice. Hence the denial, the anger when pressed to acknowledge their own lack of responsibility, and the abuse which then greets anyone who dares ‘get above their station’ by expending energy on stuff which isn’t really ‘their business’.”
I meant to say, Ian that that was an excellent description of what we are all up against with the supposed “unreachables”. This explains their often quite shocking hate-filled and violent responses. Deep down there is a deep shame that they have gone along with all this shit their whole lives and yet they can’t admit this to themselves. You can call it cognitive dissonance or whatever you want but it’s a difficult attitude to “turn”. A morning spent canvassing provides a wealth of head-shaking/disbelief.
Marie, like you I rarely say much at length (normally bite my tongue) but time’s running out. Good to see you on the M/T again.
Ahm back on the train… Glasgow bound.
This time next year…
Scotland will be.
Answer.
We are moving,.. said Eddie Murphy.
You wanna beefjacket?
Trading places.
Said Billy Valentine.
Hey Sunday!
I think, it’s a time to sharpen the pencils, make sure the pens work, the printer is dusted up with a new cartridge ready, A5 is good, so gullotine a stack of A4 ready. Clean up the YES badges and banners, saltires. And the boots! Revise the arguments, the facts, the background, and sit and relax for a bit.
Chew over the list of people to talk to when whatever happens. Maybe even be able to relax over Christmas and New Year, but BE READY because it could all kick off any time.
I think, the chances of nothing happening over the next 6 weeks are 1 in a million.
@Jock 10.48: trouble is, it’s impossible to predict what would happen. The English electorate is incredibly volatile and the BBC is working overtime for Brexit. I fear getting mixed up with English politics while our clock ticks down will get our fingers burned. Grouse Beater’s blog further up the thread resonates with me.
We KNOW what we voted for and this point needs to be made on every occasion.
If Christmas day is everyone’s choice to announce a referendum, 3pm would be the optimum time. Put a bit of spike in the Queen of England’s broadcast.
Enter perceived trolls…
The twilight zone is emerging.
Challenge yerself!
Ian Brotherhood @ 21:01,
Count me in also, Ian.
(Circumstances permitting, it would be nice to finally meet up with some Wingers in the real world. =grin=)
Hey Scotland!
How ye doing?
Speak up.
If ye dinnae, ahm gonnae start swearing.
That’s a pinky promise.
The next stop is Curryhill.
Fair do’s driver.
My primary aim is to get Indy for Scotland.
However, this Brexit debacle has proven one thing, you can get rogue parties and governments, and I reckon WM won’t get sorted until they introduce PR.
This has happened because the Tories under Cameron took absolute power with just 37% of the vote.
May struggles on, out of control, with a ‘kind of’ majority.
If there had been PR there would have been more parties, none (especially rogue ones) could dominate, and there would have to be more consensus and cooperation. The res of Europe calls this democracy.
This is Curriehill… says the scoreboard.. diction dude!
Ahm comin’ HOME Glasgow.
Miss ye.
Hey you Britnat politicians of bullshit.
Get to know YOUR place…
And sleep.
@Robert J. Sutherland –
Yay!
Great.
No date as yet, but if you have any suggestions, please fire away.
We normally sort these things on Off-Topic when the great day draws nearer, but you’ll be sure to get a heads-up one way or another.
Cheers!
🙂
The next stop is West Calder… Croy is a cummin’..
Aye can see your hand.
Now is the time for garlic king prawns…
On the tandoor baby.
Who does it?
If it’s in Glasgow in February ahm in tae. Then everyone can draw me dirty looks cause ah swear on these pages…you’ll be shocked to know ah swear aff these pages tae, should be a good night. 😉
Don’t mind me Wingers…
Ahm just rattling a few off, hello.
Ahm honda HOMEbound train.
In public view an everything.
Love yerself.
I’m a maybe if I get some orders (and money) in January.
One will go to fuck, anytime one NEEDS to.
There are other words, but this one seems to hit the hardest.
Oh my Fuck!
Love the Fuck.
More than Fuck, is all aye ever need…
Words.
Meant to warn you Cactus that Cory is “Cruaidh” in Gaelic and means ‘hard ground’ but it seems you may have passed through already.
Carry on!
CROY, dagnabbit!
Haul you ya fuckin’… with Love.
Ahm frae Glasgow.
Rev knows.
The next stop is Hartwood an it’s still fucking snowing…
Could it be anything but else?
Aye Love Lumi.
Middle ground, hard ground, soft ground… ah’ll take it Tinto.
One passed thru it all earlier.
Passing out laters.
Ahm coming intae Glasgow at Freedom Square soon soon.
Anybuddy fancy a gab inda Counting Hoose?
Ahm ever SO lonely tonight.
Strike that last comment, bars close at midnight in Glasgow…
Somewhere else…
TBC.
The next stop is Holytown… an ah hope yer still enjoying the journey wae me an it’s still fuckin’ snowing.
And aye aint complaining.
SO looking forward to the morning comments.
Aye ahm a bad boy, this much is true adventurers.
Table-tops.
This is Bellshill (Primal Scream) the next stop is Uddingston, aye used to stay there at 116 Kylepark Drive.
Mon the palace.
“Proud Cybernat says:
15 December, 2018 at 1:52 pm
Scotland can secede from the Treaty of Union. It cannot UDI from it.”
Actually the correct verb is withdraw. Scotland can withdraw from the Treaty of Union. It’s the only time the withdrawal method works.
Unionists may prefer to use the alterative verb resile, which has a more negative connotation. But I can live with that. The key point in international law is that the right to self-determination is inalienable, which means precisely that you cannot sign it away in perpetuity even in a treaty that claims to sign it away. That the right to self-determination is inalienable is not in any serious dispute in international law.
The next stop is Cambuslang (south lanarkshire)
Please mind the gap.
Ok.
Earlier this year, when walking back from Asda on the bridge over the M8, I heard a little boy ask the woman who was with him, what that was. He pointed to the log jam of cars in both directions on the motorway below. Without hesitation, she told him it was a ‘f*****g motorway’. Presumably, when he went to nursary the next day he told his friends what he saw for the first time.
Hey Pedro, what you thinking about dude?
Thanks in advance.
Pedro & Tia.
The next stop is HOME.
To you and yours!
To us.
X.
Final destination achieved, level up.
Arrivals…
@Craig Murray
Well, on that note:
link to icj-cij.org
or maybe esaier on the eye:
link to en.wikipedia.org
God fuckin’ save us from the morally righteous. Do people think they are going to heaven if they don’t use a swear word?
Oh that’s right…we’ll lose indy2 unless we all stop occasionally swearing on Wings. I mean seriously just fuck right off wi this pish.
Get over it people. Putting furtive little tales of a wee lad hearing his mum saying fucking motorway doesn’t cut it, it’s self righteous crap.
@ Craig Murray – good point. Let us withdraw from the Union. Sounds calm and orderly.
Fuck ’em
Och ah know…just gets on ma tits.
@Capella
New Netflix made film you might like, Gun City set in Barcelona in the 1920’s I thought it was good, subtitles.
Cactus is now the principal voice for Independence operating in the blogosphere commetariat.
His roamings and stylised commentary has become a new institution – his freeform haiku poetry and improvisations indicate a new Ivor Cutler in our midst.
A radiant joy, of positivity and enthusiasm – I find Late Night with Cactus to be a cosy place. These days, I don’t tune in for much else.
A neutral would think at times, just reading here, that independence was dead. Well, I have been wandering in many strange sectors of the web and I can tell you, among our enemies, they think their country is finished, the government is hopeless, the UK is ruined and the loss of Scotland is inevitable – and that is just the English – if you listen to Germans and French, they are roaring with caustic taunts and abuse – “the eternal anglo” – it is vicious and it is from everyone.
The English have no friends left in the entire world – even the Americans treat them with contempt (ordinary Yanks can’t stand them – watch Family Guy!)
We now know the UK establishment is attempting a task far too complex for it, and it has no friends of any kind in the world. It is certain – thanks DUP – to fail, with likely to be disastrous consequences, the extent of which we cannot even imagine. The current Tory leader is hanging on by her fingernails, a dead duck – and no one any more competent to take over.
And the SNP sail on. And Nikki sails on – how many opponents has she seen off now? Remember staying in power and winning elections is the job of any leader, but our boss has even more on her plate – getting out of this madhouse called the UK.
Any old hippies out there might remember The Eagles “Hotel California” – a beguiling, unsettling song with mysterious lyrics
Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
‘Relax’ said the night man,
‘We are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave!’
– this Union was never meant to be dissolved and no amount of legalistic jamflammery and examinations of notes in the margins in 16-fuckteen by sir percy haudit and lord nigel daudit will break the contract. Getting out of the empire without oceans of blood and wreckage (while the empire still wants and NEEDS you) – has never been done. So give our team some respect.
You may be living in the greatest times of all. Think on that.
Using the f or c or other words doesn’t help independence. So why use it?
You don’t care for independence.
As for the commentary of where you are. Don’t care whether your on a bus or a taxi. By a map.
@ Thepnr – thx for the info, sounds good. I’ve been watching Shaka Zulu but it’s getting tedious. The colonial sneering is not very subtle. Quite blunt, in fact. But it was made in S Africa .
Netflix productions are more impressive.
I the premise if flawed, the conclusion is flawed.
What a lot of shite.
words, words, cunt, cunt
words, words, fuck fuck
words words, twat, twat
words words, prick, prick
Oh fuck, we lost the vote.
Musta been the wordz wot dunnit.
It’s only words, and words are all I have, to take your heart away.
Just fucking vote YES, alrighty?
🙂
Righto. Just back from a night out with some like minded bods and a couple of converts.
Feeling good and almost Cactus like. 🙂
Onyhoo. We’re not the SNP. We’re not privy to government or party strategy. And I thank every lucky star in the heavens for that. If I were part of the political class, I’d spend most of my day just slapping people because… reasons.
We’re the end user. The bill payer. The boss.
Might be folks need to remember that in Scotland. WE. ARE. THE. MANAGEMENT.
When enough of us are fed up with the staus quo, we CAN change the management. You have more power than you’ve been led to believe. You CAN have the government you want, where you want and when you want.
Believe it.
Aaaand some more Chrimbo cheer. 🙂
Merry 9 days to Xmas!
A lot can happen in 9 days …
… ho ho well, nose mask on, latex gloves, back to the bleachers and astonish, and it’s back to demoulding. What a lark!
K1 am mortificated that ah nice wummin like U should use the alternit mode of communication & with extenuations as weil lol.
Looking forward to meeting U again , its ah long time since we ah chat wie or withoot sweary wordy thingies .
Big Hugs K1 .
Hey there Cactus!
I am so sorry I missed you!!
Looking after Mum.
Hope you catch with pals back home in the City of YES 🙂
X all.
Hey there Robert Peffers =)
X Sticks is a good guy, mibee feeling a bit low, but I think folk have piled in on you a bit heavy.
We are inundated with panicky trolls (good sign but tedious) and it makes it difficult to separate the good from the bad sometimes. A simple heads up would have sufficed.
Anyhoo, keep cosy and stay close. We need you 🙂
One has returned to the Catty…
Where else!
Love the Love.
Fuck something…
Ma good buddy Confused kens, respect to you bro.
Safe hame Cactus
Cheers Ronnie…
8% remaining honda moby.
Today has been a great night.
Highway 2 hell diggin’ down at the catty.
6%… good nighties soon.
Mon the Jammies!
Cactus – Peace to you Brother..
Nana – Get well soon
Smallaxe – Peace to you Brother..
John King – Keep weel freen..
Heedtracker – Come back freen..
X-Sticks – Paula Rose can vouch for ye..
Auld Boab – Chill Aul freen..
Steven Seagull – Richt all along..
bugs bunny – Ayrshire’s finest
Sensible Dave – Deal or no deal?
Do aye give a fuck for hogging this thread…
Do aye fuck… do aye?
Do you?
4% remaining Lovers.
One will recharge on the return…
It could be fun.
Late Call…
This is Lovely water.
2%.
Ugxutzjtdtmdmydmydx5r6rurudytentglasgowiyxiydkydmydkysktsktsktsktsmtsjtsitduchkcihdiycYes2NOW!
Till the marnin.
There can be only 1%.
link to news.liverpool.ac.uk
I read this lengthy transcribed piece today. I recommend it to any serious minded member of the Scottish Electorate. A former Ambassador of the UK to the EU, Sir Ivan makes clear that much of what this Tory government has told us about Brexit is little more than a fairy story, and at the same time he explains in detail just how bad Brexit will be.
“But the debate in this country – on all sides – continues to suffer from all manner of delusions, fantasies and self-deceptions.
And the debate in the EU on the British question, insofar as there is one, suffers from complacency, fatigue and strategic myopia.
We are in a bad way. And a descent into a deeply troubled and essentially conflictual medium term relationship with the EU, and a deeply divided British politics for a generation, becomes completely inevitable unless we learn these lessons and apply that learning in the next few years.”
As far as I can see, Brexit is to the UK what an incoming torpedo is to a cruise ship.
Get your lifeboat ready, Scotland.
Fuck
The vast majority of people don’t express their views in conversation with a plethora of swear words. Posters, ask yourself this :- are you likely to attract more people to this site by continually swearing? I, myself, am broad minded, however the ‘f’ & ‘c’ word is somewhat out of place on a public forum.
Whenever this subject comes up, there are certain posters who take a very childish attitude & curse & swear, just for the ‘Hell’ of it.
We want to attract people to this site, not disgust them into ignoring it.
Buggar.
Night-night, cactus.
yesindyref2, 12.48, My thoughts exactly.
Manandboy, thanks for the Ivor Rogers link.
…chargio..
Does one give a fuck about the fuck, nope, apprendre people.
HOME is good.
Gimme 5…
Today is Sunday bitches!
Recharging ma heid like hehe.
Croompenstein knows…
Ah’ve got 2 beers in ma fridge.
Gimme a second Scotland till ah get sorted.
All shall be revealed…
Triple Venn D.
Ok you’ve had 7 minutes
Scotland is waiting?
Cearc @ 3.37
Hope you are keeping well and mind and keep us informed of how you get on x
Here we go Liz 😉
Cheers for letting me vent Rev, Edinburgh is cool, met lots of groovy folks of last.
Please do not be offended by me… and if ye are.. Fuck you!
Fuck you and thank you please.
(ahm gonnae report maself to Rev for naughty words) 😉
Aaaaaand aye mean well, ass always.
Word.
Sandy @ 3.19
No that auld tattie… again…
Honestly I am away fur the day and the tone takes a dive!
Whit are ye all like?
I thought we were all clear that “this being an eclectic adult site All words and expressions were to be expected “ were we no?
I know I’ve said more than once that “telling”other Adults how to post, is neither the business, or the point.
As to attracting others…. well….As I understand it, people like Frankie Boyle and in his day Billy Connolly , attract as much as they repell!
Therefore don’t you think it would be fair to say that..
When it comes to something as important as Indy we also need to appeal to people without a stick up their arse?
Try once more, like you did before, sing a new song chicken tikka.
The swearage should wear off in about 2 hours.
Unless you are next of course…
What’s ur reaction?
Cactus @ 5.42
Do you think the Rev doesn’t already know that you’re naughty .
You’ve spent too much time in the Catty my friend and the Rev Knows exactly what you Cats are like!
Chicken Tikka
Tell me the truth… cause there’s no way you can deny it..
Stopping the -Fuck – would make you sad and quiet
Hehe, very true Liz, one frequents the Catty cause aye Lurve the pussy (do aye get away with that one?)
What the fuck is an additive.
Fuck def has its place.
Keeps it alive!
manandboy @ 1.59
I read that too..
It was indeed fascinating and also disturbing..
But what I took from it was.
If Aungus Robertson is right and the EU are looking to fast track us back into the EU after the Yes vote.
Our situation is… well… brilliant!
We ( Indy Scotland) will be negotiating with Westminster our share of the UK Union assets.
All the while being part of the EU 28 (and we will be the Country takin it back to 28) who are negotiating the new trading arrangement between the EU and Westminster.
With a veto and everything…
That’s one hellava Sweet Spot to be in… is it no?
All this is ours for the taking.
So much so, I’ve changed my mind about EFTA first and then an EU vote.
We absolutely need to be in the EU !!!
This is the best way to ensure that we retain the Scottish resources that we are entitled to!
Liz G
I think there would offer us a ‘transitional holding pen’ arrangement. So that in all practical terms we are in but the paperwork would follow.
Not, too good, thanks.
I only comment occasionally, but read most days. I like reading about Cactus’s travels through Glasgow, and last night his venture through to Edinburgh. The swearing doesn’t bother me, even though I only occasionally swear myself.
The world would be pretty boring without colourful people in it.
O/T
Apparently the new BBC Scotland channel is going to bless us with the long awaited Scottish version of Question Time.
The big question is – Who will be the chairperson?
2 questions for wingers:-
a) Who should chair the program?
b) Who will the BBC put in the chair?
The chances of identical answers to the 2 questions are nil.
Just catching up this morning after a power cut last night, perfect end to a really shitty week.
Many thanks to all who jumped in to defend my reputation, but no need to worry, I’ve got a thick hide and I won’t let Robert’s very knowledgeable but unicorn view of our current situation regarding our constitutional state upset me. If only it would be as easy as an annulment of the union, but I doubt it will.
As Ian says we discussed a wee Wings social event in Glasgow towards the end of Feb before the marching season kicks in. I’m up for that. It’s been a while since we had a real get together, mostly been quick catchups at the marches.
And Fuck you Cactus – ah luv you dude 😉
@ Liz G.
The EU also has a mutual defence policy. The EU I’m sure would provide Air and Naval support to maintain the integrity of our land and sea borders.
@Manandboy 1.59
Good catch and a good read.
@X_Sticks
I’ll be keeping my eye open for that get together. 🙂
Why does Cactus remind me of Robert Louis Stevenson and his “Travels with a donkey in the Cevennes”?
I’ve got my coat!
Have Drunks over Scotland finished their expletive filled shift yet?
The drunken ramblings between pals on this site, and plans for their piss ups, do more to render it pointless for others, and is more disrespectul to Stu’s good work than any troll could achieve.
Hang your heids in shame or get your own website:
Alkies for Independence
Famous 15,
Well spotted!
a) Who should chair the program? Lesley Riddocn
b) Who will the BBC put in the chair? Sarah Smith
Riddoch
Cactus’s return journey from Edinburgh to Glasgow last night was a metaphor for Independence. In the last of his updates which I read before retiring for the night, he wrote that Curriehill was the next stop.
I thereby deduced, he was taking the scenic route home, via such metropolitan hot spots as Breicht, Shotts and the badlands of Lanarkshire.
Still, he made it, just as we will surely negotiate the many ambushes, avalanches of shit, sloughs and waterslaps of lies and deceit which the Unionists will place in our path to the Promised Land of Independence.
As another poster mentioned last night – you cannot, supposedly leave the Hotel California, but, I am sure California, Dallas, Moscow and the many other communities of Scotland will soon be leaving Hotel UK, and be ready, after they do, to give Hotel UK a really bad write-up on Trip Advisor.
I think it is worth me repeating what have said previously. One drunken sweary genuine independence supporter posting is easily more acceptable to me than all the phoney Independence supporter sneaky British Nationalists that also post on Wings.
Talking about phoney – Kate Howie Labour ( how do mad no surrender nutters like her get elected for Labour) really should just wear her Orange Order sash all the time.
What Westminster is doing to Scotland deserves a bit of anger and outrage and yes even swearing if that is how you want to express yourself.
Sturgeon now on Sky.
Nicola on Sky very soon. People’s vote ? How does this help the cause ?
wull says:
15 December, 2018 at 3:37 pm
….I fully sympathise with the anger many on this site have displayed about the shocking way the Spanish government has dealt with the Catalan independence movement…..
Another bullseye Wull.
I think the EU is entirely benign towards Scotland’s predicament, but they are bound by Constitution to be reactive, not proactive. If we want the EU to have our backs when it comes to Sovereignty, it is Scotland which needs to set the initiative in motion.
Do not let anyone persuade any one of that this is an initiative which must be predicated by a supporting democratic majority. It isn’t. We do not need a democratic mandate to power up constitutional sovereignty, but we have one anyway, our 2016 remain vote.
I believe with every fibre that if the Scottish Government chose to cite the ECJ’s judgement that revocation of Article 50 is the prerogative of the sovereign entity which pronounced it, then Scotland, citing the Declaration of Arbroath and the Claim of Right can rightfully claim the sovereign capacity to revoke Article 50 in every capacity which affects Scotland, and leave the UK with both an Irish Backstop and a Scottish Backstop which hold in check the precise malevolence and interference of the United Kingdom Government so accurately described in Wull’s comment.
Come on Nicola, draw upon the Claim of Right and divide Theresa May’s Ultra Viraes UK Article 50 notification into England’s Sovereign prerogative to leave the EU and Scotland’s Sovereign prerogative to remain, and revoke Article 50 for Scotland.
Make Brexit the definitive act of England and Wales choosing their own secession from the EU, and laying full claim to be the “separatists” which they so often like to deride us. Scotland doesn’t leave the EU because we sovereign Scots have not sanctioned any change in our status.
Enjoy the sweetness of an English proto-dictatorship being free to self harm its own country and people, but the conflagration held in containment by the Northern Irish Border Backstop and the Scottish Sovereignty Backstop.
Brexit only happens to those who voted for it. The UK Union is ended by the careless haste of those who least respect it.
Revoke Scotland’s Article 50.
Revoke Scotland’s Article 50.
Revoke Scotland’s Article 50.
It lets Scotland’s Constitutional Dreadnought slip its anchor and put to sea, but it also empowers the European Fleet of 27 other Dreadnoughts to steam an intercept course to our position. Gunboat diplomacy which Westminster of all governments can surely grasp.
And last point, since Scotland’s state would be constitutionally isolated from these events, Scotland’s Interests would constitutionally unaltered by these events. There is no “lead in” time our clock running out for nothing to change. Scotland would be the 28th EU Nation to be making its own preparations for an English No Deal EngExit.
Revoke Scotland’s Article 50 Notification….
Old Pete says:
16 December, 2018 at 9:46 am
Nicola on Sky very soon. People’s vote ? How does this help the cause ?
To my eye, it doesn’t, but then I have never been in step with Project Enigma.
Fergus Green says:
16 December, 2018 at 9:28 am
a) Who should chair the program? Lesley Riddocn
b) Who will the BBC put in the chair? Sarah Smith
———-
Correct.
However, should Ken McIntosh resign, it would be a nice little jig for him back to the fold of auntie beeb with the rest of his Britnat pals.
Who should chair SQT – Bernard Ponsonby
Who will chair SQT? A place man or woman , possibly with a lisp.
Cactus , home safe?
Yes indyref2
A lot can happen in 9 days – exactly and we’ve still to hear the pronouncement of the Court of Sessions on the Article 50 judgement.
Maybe they will astonish us all and state that as Scotland applied for the information she now intends to use it to declare that we are revoking Article 50 in so far as it applies to Scotland…. now that wold be something!
The problem I have with a SQT is it’s just another example of ‘news where you are’. We will get our own wee parochial version but it wouldn’t replace the (primarily) English one continuing to be beamed to Scotland.
The solution is to give the SNP as third party the kind of coverage on QT it should receive PLUS folks like RevStu and WGD as non party guests.
They will use the SQT as a further excuse to keep Scotland off QT as much as possible.
The underlying problem is of course BBC failure to differentiate England and UK, again.
If the want an English QT, then fair enough. It just shouldn’t be shown across the UK!
Nicola Sturgeon on Sky’s Sophie Ridge show.
Our FM has the patience of a Saint to deal with these interviews. Calm collected comments. Particularly when that same old question about why do you want to leave the UK union but stay in another Union – the EU. Just how many times must this be explained to the Britnats. I think the explanation will have to be put on the side of a double decker bus to get the message through to the Britnats.
During the week Channel 4 news as part of its Brexit coverage had a short piece by Helia Ebrahimi, their Economics Correspondent, on the consequences of no-deal Brexit on trade and WTO rules. For example, UK would be limited to 3000 trucks per day to Europe if no-deal in place
Short, informative piece which has been posted on Twitter.
Here is the link, worth watching
link to mobile.twitter.com
The raison d’être of the SNP is independence. There are many who would not vote for this social liberal agenda party if it were not for that fact. The leadership does presume to much from the Scottish electorate. Independence is the unique selling point.
The English proverb ‘make hay while the sun shines’ applies now. The political sun is hot, when will the haymaking begin.
I think that SNP strategy is pretty clear , as actions speak louder than words.
The strategy was more powers WITHIN THE UK.
Plan A: The devolution Scottish Govt went to court to fight over devolution powers, not for national sovereignty or Claim of Right, if Brexit goes ahead.
But, The UK Govt have sunk that strategy, if Brexit happens, with powers grabbed to WM. UK Parliament has been declared 100% sovereign over the Scottish Parliament.
Plan B: Stop the Tories grabbing Scottish / EU devolved powers from the EU, by all UK remaining in the EU. Where Scotland is not represented at all.
The SNP is fighting alongside the pro-EU Tories for another UK-wide EU-REF. (Whatever happened to the warning that if you lie down with dogs you catch fleas?)
If Plan B succeeded what would that mean for indy?
If Plan B succeeds we are back where we started in 2014: NO is a vote for the status quo of UK and EU.
YES would be Project Fear2: out of the UK and EU. Economic wilderness.
I’m sure I will be told that that is the great master plan: The SNP campaigning for years for something they don’t really want, that it’s all a pretence. If that were independence we were talking about, I would find it hard to disagree. But, the SNP haven’t campaigned for independence since 2014.
The fact is, the SNP again went for the step by step approach of increased powers. The 30 year old strategy. So predictable and so easily defeated by the UK.
“But, the SNP haven’t campaigned for independence since 2014.”
Not according to the BritNats.
All this talk about the forthcoming Scottish Question Time begs the question – does anyone really believe that the new BBC Scotland TV channel is going to be any different to what we have now?
No? Didn’t think so.
BBC Radio Scotland’s GMS (yestreday and today) and yesterday’s Shereen Nanjani programme, programmes which normally look and discuss events of the last week with various guests, had plenty of stuff about Brexit, TM’s no confidence, TM’s gadabout in Europe trying to get something she knows she won’t get, irresponsibly inaccurate and misleading comments on EU, even something about Cliff Richard. But, absolutely not a word, not a whiff, about Thursday’s SC ruling.
link to bbc.co.uk
“The BBC is recognised by audiences in the UK and around the world as a provider of news that you can trust. Our website, like our TV and radio services, strives for journalism that is accurate, impartial, independent and fair.
—
Research shows that, compared to other broadcasters, newspapers and online sites, the BBC is seen as by far the most trusted and impartial news provider in the UK.
Is there any way we can sue the BBC Trust under the Consumer Rights Act 2015? BBC is not fit for purpose, it is certainly not accurate, impartial, inependent or fair, especially when it relates all tghings Scotland and Scottish politics.
Who to chair SQT? Lesley Riddoch, definitely. For the obvious reasons and because she was born where I spent most of my life – Wolverhampton.
Who will chair SQT? My feeling maybe Ken Macintosh, when he gets his jotters and returns to BBC fold. Or maybe the Colonel when she resigns, as she promised, and aslo returns to BBC fold whence she came.
Just thoughts.
Colin Alexander@10.41am
I really wish you Britnats would make up your mind. Some of you are saying the SNP should stop obsessing about independence and get on with the day job and others like you are saying they are not campaigning for independence but spending too much time on the day job.
Britnats not only do they lie and cheat all the time but they cannot even get their lying ducks in a row.
Had a snap survey, and latest polling suggests I couldn’t give a flying fk in a thunderstorm about a Scottish Questiontime on TV. Are we really still all they way back there??? I mean, that was barely topical back in 2014 when it was a news station, not just a programme. HAVE WE LEARNED NOTHING??? There’d be more edge and jeopardy buying a tropical fish tank and watching that instead. The required attention spans are broadly similar too.
As for the People’s Vote,…. see previous paragraph above.
REVOKE ARTICLE 50 FOR SCOTLAND.
Isn’t it a fact that the only people “banging on” about Scottish independence are those very people who oppose Scottish independence. It has always been so.
I also wonder aboutthose people who keep saying that Nicola Sturgeon should get with her “day job”. As far as I can see that is exactly what she is doing. However, I cannot see the leaders of the unionist parties going about their “day jobs” as they obsess with their in-fighting and Brexit.
So its emerged that the BBC already controls 42% of the market with regards to news in Scotland, and the BBC’s new Scottish news programme will see that grow to over 50%.
Bear in mind, that Rupert Murdoch was refused by Ofcom on merging Sky because he already had a 10% share across all platforms, and it becomes patently obvious that the BBC is flooding Scotland with its propaganda more than ever.
Will Ofcom refuse the BBC more airtime? And will this man’s challenge win?
Do we even trust Ofcom to start with?
link to thenational.scot
Liam Fox says no second referendum because that would entitle Scotland to another one and we can’t have that
Like I’ve been saying for two years, it’s all about Scotland,
we’re the money
Dr Jim says:
Agree completely. To mainstream Tories their Union/UK is more important than Brexit. IMO every move they make has more to do with maintaining the integrity of the UK than achieving a planned Brexit.
I firmly believe if Nicola had called (or calls) Indyref2 prior to Brexit, and it looks like a Yes win, the Tories would potentially even cancel Brexit completely just before the vote took place. They will do anything and everything to thwart Scottish independence.
If a peoples vote can be agreed between the Tories and Labour. Two options are proposed , Mays deal or No deal. A referendum with two choices, A. May’s deal … or … B. No deal. … A referendum to choose either the frying pan or the fire.
BBC shortbread QT being trollied out to tell the Scots what’s best for them.
1. Because the original QT is tainted and
2. There’s possibly three political events coming and they’ve got to do something to save the ‘Nation’ ‘Country’ ‘Realm’ ‘Britain’ etc.
Jings! They’ve even got James Naughtie back on the air…
Oh wait it can’t possibly be him as a well respected chairperson. Naw! 🙁 🙁
I see Ian Small has written to the National, it would seem that his defence is that QT is not unfair to the the SNP as they have been on 17% of the time (not checked this but I’ll take his word).
Of course as far as Scotland is concerned this is way under their representation. So what he is actually saying the guests reflect mostly the voting pattern of England. The second and third placed parties in Scotland will be guests 100% of the time the top party 17%, it’s certainly an interesting take on fairness.
Inadvertently he has basically given one of the most convincing reason for broadcasting to be devolved, the BBC is basically an English Broadcasting Service.
Who to chair SQT? So many possibilities from Lesley Riddoch and Derek Bateman to Frankie Boyle.
But the BBC will chose some malleable place person or PSB.
Consider this:
link to buzzfeed.com
Contrast that with Sir Ivan Rogers piece where he states
link to news.liverpool.ac.uk
And the Brexiteers still think we are going to get a great trade deal?
Its definitely pantomime season at Sunday Times today who are running usual Independence will be a disaster piece from ex BBC chief John Boothman whose main “expert” on the subject is Doug McWilliams of Centre for Economics and Business Research.
Sounds respectable until you read this
link to businessinsider.com
starlaw says:
16 December, 2018 at 12:40 pm
‘If a peoples vote can be agreed between the Tories and Labour. Two options are proposed , Mays deal or No deal.’
If that was the case, I think for the first time in my life I might not vote. Its blackmail pure and simple – vote for this terrible thing or an even worse thing. Whichever wins the majority in Scotland, it would be ‘Scotland votes for Brexit’.
The SQT will be largely unwatched, I haven’t watched QT for ages, except the odd dip to see if it is still as bad, pretty much since Dimbleby took over. In fact if you just tell me the questions and the guests I could pretty much write down what they will say without having to watch.
It will most certainly be about Holyrood, so we will be fed a diet of SNHS, Education & Transport, sort Rep Scot with extra unionist in the audience.
There would be little point of discussing Westminster stuff as there no reps of the two major parties that have any influence there. and the thought of watching Mundell stuttering through his pre-prepared mantra ad nauseam hardly set my expectations on fire.
@galamcennalath
So the “material change” has to be not just Brexit, but the ripping up of the devolution settlement.
The latter has the advantage of having ALREADY HAPPENED.
Why give the BBC the power to broadcast more stuff in Scotland rather than give Scotland the power over broadcasting to broadcast our own stuff
Making the questions obvious why does England refuse to devolve the *power* over broadcasting, why does England feel it has to retain this *power* over the content of what comes out of our tellys, what is England afraid of that other normal countries are not
Answer: Scotland having its own power
I bet there are millions of people in England who think BBC Scotland is Scottish instead of it actually being BBC England broadcasting in Scotland but just changing the name
I wonder how many people in England realise that Scotland’s elected First Minister has to wait to be invited (allowed) on the telly
I wonder how many people in England would put up with that in their own country
They wouldn’t would they
I’d put a fiver on Glenn Campbell…ah really would.
I have zero interest in anything coming from the BBC.
They have proved themselves many times over.
Once there is a GE soon. The SNP hold the balance of power? There will soon be another IndyRef, as long as voters in Scotland vote for it.
I have a strange feeling that it the EU ref result had been a remain in England but the Scottish vote had made the result leave then you would never have heard the phrase ‘will of the people’. It would have suddenly become what is best for the country and the vote of England would have been the outcome.
In fact no matter what the vote was if the result of the UK had differed from England I suspect there would either be another referendum or the fact it was advisory would became the over riding narrative.
@Galamcennalath
Yeah, if Scotland had voted YES in 2014 Brexit or Englixit wouldn’t even be an issue, they wouldn’t have done it because already they’d have been feeling the loss of Scotlands cash and without Scotland they’d have nothing to sell hence the immediate removal of a whole bunch of Scotlands powers over the stuff they fully intend to sell
Following the 2014 vote we saw the introduction of UK flag stamping on Scottish produce, that was David Cameron, so even then this whole Brexit debacle or something similar was being planned otherwise why do it
Every day in the HOC we hear the answer to every question put by the SNP …*You gave up all rights in 2014 now you have no say*
Or is that *not normally*
Joanna Cherry will be on BBC radio 4 Any Questions on Friday night, repeated at 1.10 on Saturday. Jacob Rees Mogg will also be on, so that could be sparky.
After two years of this nonsense I still don’t understand why the Scottish government agreed to a UK wide vote on Brexit knowing full well that no matter what happened it would be what England voted for is what would be enacted, it’s FPTP voting when Scotland is proportional representation, it goes against every principle of fairness you could possibly apply to a Union of countries saying that the majority of one country overides the majority of another yet Unionists insist the EU is undemocratic but the EU would never employ such a system riddled with weight population bias, again showing that the British think Britain the United Kingdom and England are all one and the same because the other nations are not nations except when it becomes politically expedient to enlarge English bigness on the world stage (how’s that working out now)
Scotland is outnumbered 10 to 1 so a gamble was taken by everybody and everybody lost
Erm, eh, with regards to the “peoples vote” Labour and the Tories discussing the choices for the question, May’s deal or no deal.
What the hell kind of choice is that, Hobson’s choice! That is precisely the question these people, laughingly known as politicians should be answering themselves, We pay them enough money for making these decision, although in Labours case the only thing they same able to do is abstain. What a bunch o’ chanty wrastlers.
I don’t think that I could vote for either option in another referendum. I’m an citizen of the EU, and along with my fellow countryman, I voted, by a large majority to stay as an EU citizen.
So where exactly is Scotland’s choice in this “peoples vote” then. Naewhaur as usual. Oh aye, I forgot, you voted to stay with the UK in 2014, so therefore, you gave up all rights to a say about anything.
Fur goad’s sake Scottie, beam me up outa here.
Dr Jim @ 1.52, hear hear.
Cactus…..Cactus should chair the Scottish Question Time.
Loads would watch that…
… or Ronnie.
It doesn’t look as if some in the EU really want the UK to stay in.
You got your opt-ins, opt-outs, special this and special that. A gold plated membership card for trade with the EU, FTAs with a lot of the world and more in the pipeline..
The WM, Brit.Nat. clique are a pain in the a**e to most Europeans nowadays. They’re not all that keen on the UK revoking A50.
A comment from Germany:
link to spiegel.de
I agree with Breeks and co above. Formally in the Scottish Parliament as the Sovereign Entity we HAVE to officially:
Revoke Scotland’s Article 50.
Revoke Scotland’s Article 50.
Revoke Scotland’s Article 50.
What do we have to lose? Its that or we are done for.
Dr Jim says:
16 December, 2018 at 1:52 pm
“”After two years of this nonsense I still don’t understand why the Scottish government agreed to a UK wide vote on Brexit…””
The decision to hold the referendum was taken in HoC so not sure the Scottish Government had any say.
What was important, however, was getting the count taken in the 4 constituent parts of the UK. This then laid bare the unequal nature of the Union when the results were counted. Scotland’s overwhelming result for Remain and its subsequent treatment by the Westminster Gov has been an eye-opener for many and further substantial ammunition in the case for independence.
Blah de blah de blah blah blah
Get a grip , you go on about this is unfair that is unfair unfair unfair unfair blah blah blah but when the most unfair subject crops up ,
English people
your colonisers
The people that cram unfairness into every nook and cranny of your life
you say
oh but we must be fair to the English
talk about dumb and dumber
English folk being given a vote on Scottish independence allows them to keep you subjugated
You will always be subjugated because they have sixty million people and can increase the number of them living in Scotland whenever they want to
You are in with a chance of persuading the “proud Scots but” to change their mind but you will never ever ever ever ever change English people because they already think you are part of England they are fighting to retain what they think they already own, they think you are trying to take a bit of their Britain , Englands Britain.
England is a great country it is powerful make no mistake about that, they have a history second to none.
English people are ….well….just people ….same as people anywhere else in the world ,good bad indifferent.
English people living in Scotland should only get a vote on Scottish independence if they were born here or if one of their parents was born here or if they can PROVE that they have lived in Scotland continuously for at least five years.
Allowing English people who were not born here who’s parents were not born here, who have only lived here a day or a week or a month or a year etc , to vote on Scottish independence is the most unfair thing of all it diminishes the importance of Scotland as a country it diminishes the status of Scottish people it’s a travesty of justice and fairness.
England as a country makes all the laws for uk and excluded EU citizens from voting on Brexit
Any person applying for a passport to live in England had to either show that they were born in England or one of their parents was born in England or they have to have lived continuously in England for five years, one more thing they have to do is take nationality and sit a test to show they know stuff like when the queen was born and how many Lords their are in the House of Lords etc the life in the uk test ludicrous and they talk about fairness ?
And you lot support their arrogance.
Evening Scotland and groovy international neighbours ~
Hehe looks like ah pushed a few stimulatory buttons last night, GOOD.
Perception is a beautiful thing and not always what it seems. 😉
Ohhh the Joyousness!
Where’s Officer Dibble when you need him?
This site needs new-blood, and fast!
‘Any’ Brexit will turn it all to dust n’ bones:
link to youtube.com
More is always good and welcomed.
To Scotland.
Pete Barton says:
15 December, 2018 at 8:35 pm
“@Rock:
Surely you know the difference between Scottish national sovereignty and personal power.”
How can a colony have “national sovereignty”.
Even Ghandi could not have won independence for Scotland with its pretendy “sovereignty”.
The only “personal power” a Scot resident in Scotland, and plenty of Toms, Dicks and Harrys living in Scotland, have is the Westminster given power to go and vote, if and when an election (or referendum) is called.
Back to the questions you conveniently forgot to answer:
Do you believe that Westminster will grant a Section 30 order for a legally binding independence referendum anytime soon?
Do you believe that Nicola will defy Westminster and hold an independence referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster?
These are the only two questions that matter this side of 2640 AD.
Is anyone surprised that Robert Peffers has failed to apologise to X_Sticks despite some of his own diehard sycophants requesting him to apologise?
Not me.
Cairnstoon.
Hey if that wasn’t a bone being tossed from the table it could easily pass as a toy rattle being tossed again at the spoilt child (more like baby)
They would probably still try to chew the ends of it 2.
Scotland is chained to a big baby.
That’s the word of the day.
Relentless.
Eternal sunshine: 🙂
link to youtube.com
Table scene.
Hmm ye know how John Bull is the fat character with the butchers apron on…
Is this toon character also just another John Bull or does eee ‘ave a different name? One of the best ones with him in it, was on the plane with Hamish on the rhs with only one lever to his use… “Do something!” may have been the caption.
Whoever he is reminds me of the Cockney characters in these:
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
To the tippy-top table, just the tip.
Rockshit
Is anyone surprised that Rockshit just posts the same old boring repetitive Rockshit.
Merry 17th of December 2018 everybuddy. 🙂
Nine days remaining till Stallone Day.
Eight days remaining till Turkey Day.
c/w all the trimmings…
Gobble gobble.
A tippy-tap of the marnin’ tae yees all.
Thought I’d share with yees that ah’ve been me rewatching an auld boxset again of a cracking series… remember “Prison Break”
Recommended for a check out if you’ve not seen it before… just finished Season 1, again.
Lot’s of tie ins with our Uk situation.
Might aye kindly share some Prison Break for your viewing pleasure…
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
“But life’s not a wheel, with chains made of steel”
Aussi did ye get me Led Z, “triple-venn-d” teaser (C attached)
link to youtube.com
All has NOW been revealed.
To the top table!
Can you diggit?
As you know, there are three circles in the venn d…
1. Scotland
2. EU
3. Westminster
We need to lose the spoilt child (big baby 3)
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
Have a look under the ‘Cover’.
SO yeah, let’s drop the Westminster baby, let’s drop the deid donkey:
link to youtube.com
Santa’ll be on his way here this time next week, hopefully he’ll clear customs checks okay hehe. As you know Santa is an honourary member of the European Union.
Best y’all know that Freedom of Movement applies to Santa 2.
BrUKexit = Santa no more! (tell that to yer kids)
Might one pre-empt that all we will see and hear about tomorrow is…
“THERE ARE 100 DAYS REMAINING TO GO!”
NOW it’s one Scot for each day…
Wae sumthin tae say.
06/04/1320
NB Independence for England appears to be a very popular article (with over 500 reader comments already) and rightly SO. Thanx for that one Mr Millar.
They’re freaking out the lbc wireless radio.
Westminster May’s No Deal’s (WMND’s)
Roll on 11th o’clock news.
link to youtube.com
EXCLUSIVE footage of John Bull II (The Bone Collector) moments later:
link to youtube.com
Hamish has given him the slip and is NOW FREE to join the rest of the world for dinner, drinks & entertainment at the top table. A seat will do just fine thx.
That’s what the rest of Europe does.
Wait, that IS the original John Bull on screen above. Ah mistook him for that other Cockney geezer. Ye ken the geezah with the mad-looking eyes and curly sideys.
John Bull the 1st looks like he’s lost a bit of weight.
He must be feeling stress and the pinch.
Jolly good, said Basil (Tory)
My bad, had a look back over the toon tab and NOW realise there only ever has been one John Bull (phew) it was his hat being on or off on toon-image that changed the pov for me.
Aye think.
The top table is a there for the joining, future independent Scotland.
But we have to do THIS first:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Think of a number, any number…
Are you Yes too NOW?
Dearie dearie me, looks like ah’ve hit the sweet spot on the main thread.
Aye wonder if folks would think and feel the same if aye had posted all on The HOMEcoming or off-topical threads…
Interesting.