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Wings Over Scotland

Return Of The Terror

Posted on December 10, 2018 by

On one level you have to feel a bit sorry for Scottish Unionists. Having believed until very late in the day that they’d win a crushing victory in the 2014 indyref and put the matter to bed for a century, they’ve never been able to relax since.

And this week the fear has them well and truly in its grip.

The hapless Scottish Secretary demonstrated the lack of self-awareness for which he’s famous when he said at the weekend that the thing he warned would threaten the Union (a defeat for the PM’s Brexit deal) was going to happen on Tuesday, at which point – having said he’d resign if the Union was threatened – he’s made it absolutely clear that he ISN’T going to resign.

And he wasn’t alone in the panic room.

The paper’s Chief Gammon Correspondent also had a dire warning about how Nicola Sturgeon’s eminently rational plan to moderate the impact of Brexit concealed a secret timebomb. Hold onto your hats, readers, but it seems that the dastardly underhanded nationalist still wants independence!

Who knew? But Linklater’s line of thinking is starkly illogical. The FM’s proposal does not require a general election and specifically seeks to AVOID a no-deal Brexit, so his suspicion of her plan is without reason. Outwardly, indeed, Sturgeon’s suggestion would inescapably damage the cause of independence, which is undeniably served by a disastrous hard Brexit.

(We needn’t concern ourselves here with the broader strategic positioning of the SNP – the party’s stance in so actively putting forward positive and constructive Brexit options has rendered its would-be critics impotent, to the point where, as in this case, they have to behave completely nonsensically in order to push an SNP BAD narrative on the subject. The party will of course happily – and quite properly – leverage any hard Brexit in pursuance of its core goal, but in the meantime has behaved in a manner impossible for Unionists to credibly attack.)

But why are Linklater and his ilk so terrified now? The answer is revealed in the next paragraph, where he abandons any loose hold on reality altogether.

Is it, though? Is it “doubtful”? If only we had some data on that.

Oh. In fact, just 24 hours earlier, a poll commissioned by Linklater’s own paper found that Scots faced with a no-deal Brexit would in fact support independence by almost a 20-point margin. That sounds quite a lot like “greater enthusiasm” to us.

And you definitely know support for independence is on the rise when the Union’s greatest pretend economist says it isn’t:

Just like Linklater, the brittle businessman has been forced to flatly deny the reality in front of him to try to keep a lid on his anxiety. The poll literally demonstrates the exact opposite of Scots valuing the UK over the EU – it unarguably and empirically shows that if they can’t be in both the EU and in the UK, they’d prefer the former to the latter, even if the Brexit were to be of the soft variety rather than a catastrophic no-deal.

The fact that the Panelbase poll showed current Yes-No numbers of 47-53 (still the firm’s highest Yes figure for more than two years) plainly indicates only that Scots are still clinging to the hope that Brexit can be avoided entirely at the 11th hour. But that’s a slim hope. The tipping point is almost upon us.

So perhaps it’s shock. Perhaps the Unionists had genuinely succeeded in convincing themselves that support for independence was in freefall despite polls barely budging since 2014. But whatever the reason, the dawning realisation that Scottish voters will react to Brexit if and when it finally happens by switching to independence in serious numbers has them visibly quaking in their Union Jack slacks.

For those of us near the end of our tether with boredom after a two-year-long phoney war with nothing to do but wait for the world’s slowest-motion trainwreck to unfold, it’s an invigorating sight. But we suspect that things are going to get a lot worse for the frightened Unionists before they get better.

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    646 to “Return Of The Terror”

    1. handclapping says:

      More popcorn please

    2. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      The anti Labour / Putin UK Government funded hub in Fife may one of many scattered around the UK.

      What is the betting that there are several targeting Independence and the SNP

    3. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Saw somewhere this moring the description of the Scots as “the common sense nation” in reference to growing support for independence. We can use that.

    4. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Should of course be “morning”.

    5. Auld Rock says:

      It is truly sad to think that Linklater’s Mam was such a staunch Nationalist in her day, the poor woman must be turning in her grave. Just hearing that May be about to chicken-out of tomorrows vote. The clock is ticking, tick, tock. Listen out at 15:30hrs.

    6. Macart says:

      If I keep knocking back this snackage, I may have to go up a size… or two, in the old troosers dept.

      You can’t sell people on a bill of goods then fail to deliver. Since indyref 2014, they’ve shown nothing but contempt, arrogance and ignorance. They doled out what they felt was their due to Scotland’s YES voting electorate. A punishment exercise.

      They might just find out that Karma can be a right… wossiname.

    7. Call me naïve, but even if Scotland dissolved the union with England, it might still trade with it?

    8. yesindyref2 says:

      We could be in for an even better poll result when we see the data tables and the number of don’t knows.

      NO could be way down from 50% on all three questions.

    9. Iain says:

      Ah, Magnus. Not possessed of a self-reliant talent: thirled to the Union to maintain the social status he could not, as an Old Etonian, bear to forgo.

      This extended to being dependent on Robert Maxwell for work, which required him to be subjected, with other yes-men, to Fat Bob’s tantrums. However Tom Bower’s biography of Maxwell records that, dutifully grateful, Linklater thought “He’s an attractive man. A true human being.”

    10. Gerry says:

      Vote pulled by May, statement at 3:30 in Hoc

    11. Frank Waring says:

      I hope you’re right (but I still secretly fear that the spineless Tories will fold at the last moment — maybe even tomorrow — and agree to the May deal: and subsequently that too many Scots will just turn over and go back to sleep).

    12. K1 says:

      Think the ECJ ruling is having its effect. How could a meaningful vote ‘back me or else’ ever get through in light of the ruling? They’ll spin it. But that’s the reality.

    13. alexicon says:

      The main attack, their only attack, from the unionists, including politicians, in Indy ref II will be the so called lose of the trading link between Scotland and the rUK.
      I hope the SG raises its game and nips this in the bud before they start getting that lying sound-bite out.

    14. K1 says:

      Keunssberg…3rd source: ‘vote is definitely off’

      She’s in the thick of it..probably v reliable.

    15. mountain shadow says:

      If the vote is off, then surely May has to be too? Unless the EU have offered an olive branch?

      What a shambles

    16. K1 says:

      Nicola’s trolled her and told her complete ‘cowardice’ if called off.

    17. yesindyref2 says:

      Sturgeon isn’t pulling her punches:

      100% this ?. If rumours of a delay are correct, it will be pathetic cowardice by a PM and government that have run out of road and now need to get out of the way.

    18. galamcennalath says:

      I’ve always believed the survival of the UK is a high priority, even if the msm don’t present it that way. May knows she has the survival of the UK in her hands, and how Brexit plays out.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if the existential threat to their UK play a part in the rumours….

      Laura Kuenssberg
      Third source tells us vote ‘definitely off’

    19. Macart says:


      Right enough on the vote?

      Oh, that’ll leave a mark.

    20. Luigi says:

      There’s another rumour now circulating that May will backtrack (again) and allow a second euro ref, but with only two options:

      Either: Her “revised” deal (whatever that will be),

      or: Remain in the EU.

      Oh Dear, better stock up on the yellowjackets and popcorn, folks. Things are going to get a bit, well…..”interesting”. 🙂

    21. K1 says:

      ‘Downing Street and key ministers have repeatedly said the vote would not be delayed, in an attempt to concentrate the minds of MPs. Earlier on Monday morning, Michael Gove categorically stated the vote would go ahead.

      John McTernan Wanker Of The Moment Award’

    22. Doug_Bryce says:

      UK is backed into a corner

      3 options…

      1) Mays unequivocally bad deal (with NI dispensation)
      2) Catastrophic No-deal
      3) Cancel brexit and admit it was sold on a lie

      Sit tight and get your popcorn out.

    23. HandandShrimp says:

      It crossed my mind yesterday that SiU would go into melt down. What is particularly ironic is that a fair number of that happy crew are full on gammon and want as hard a Brexit as possible. Unionists like Kevin might see Brexit for the disaster that it is but that is not a view widely shared in the more active unionist ranks as a cursory glance at the BBC HYS will show.

      Kevin is sailing on a ship that us not going in a direction he wants.

    24. schrodingers cat says:

      the vote is off,,,,,,,,,is it?

      wouldnt she need a majority vote in the hoc for that?

    25. Abulhaq says:

      Now lets have a GE, a Scottish independence GE. The auguries look very propitious. Are the gods smiling on us at last?

    26. hackalumpoff says:

      “The meaningful vote has been announced in the Parliamentary schedule. Pulling it needs a vote to approve. That vote could be lost!”

    27. There you go again giving credence to their phoney polls how can the opinion of the few they ask can anyone with a brain accept that they represent the opinion of the whole country I bet they have had polls showing the yes vote away ahead but of course they will bury them yes some of the people all of the time???

    28. starlaw says:

      Three different statements to come this afternoon.
      At the end of the day Tax Havens must be protected. This is the Tory way, the only way. … Interesting times.

    29. dave Stewart says:

      What we need is a lesson from history after the ww2.
      Where is that man/woman of the people, someone like Mountbatten, last Colonial master of India.
      What we need is the masterplan of moving the people across the border and producing a single country separated by thousands of miles. Just as they did with East and West Pakistan. That worked out well.
      My own view is that Nicola should just write to Barnier citing the decision of the ECJ. Scotland recinds article 50, we have no objection to our partner, England , leaving the EU. As the only other signatory of the Union called the United Kingdom we demand to continue our membership.
      Ok maybot now is the time. What do we get at 15:00, more smoke and mirror stuff

    30. Gerry says:


      Can’t they just not beg to move the motion ?

    31. scunner says:

      that and the “single UK Market” crap they’ve been peddling since 2016.

      Anybody who seriously believes that cross-border trade would end come independence doesn’t have an ounce of common-sense.
      No business down south can take a 10% hit (or more) out of sheer spite. Also impossible to do if we are in EFTA/EU.

      The days when the Empire could simply bully small countries into submission are long past. Unless they want to be some sort of buccaneering rogue state going forward.

    32. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Gerry I second that emotion.
      Getting fed up with popcorn now, changing to Guga Jerky.

    33. Marcia says:

      This Brexit thing lately has been like a game of ten pin bowling. Joanna Cherry and her gang bowled and knocked away all of May’s skittles. She cannot argue take it or leave it anymore.

    34. galamcennalath says:

      Guardian rolling news …

      ” The European commission has said that it will not renegotiate the withdrawal agreement. At a press briefing the commission’s spokeswoman Mina Andreeva said:

      We take note of the court of justice judgment today on the irrevocability of article 50.

      We have an agreement on the table which was endorsed by the European council in its article 50 format on the 25th November.

      As President Juncker said, this deal is the best and only deal possible. We will not renegotiate – our position has therefore not changed and as far as we are concerned the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union on the 29th March 2019.”

      Will the EU allow tweeting to make May’s deal more palatable to WM? IMO nae chance.

      There needs to be a new government, a general election, a revocation of Brexit, whatever. May can’t just kick the can further.

    35. but but but… Michael Gove definitely said at 8.25 this morning that the vote is ‘definitely going ahead – YES’ …
      Things must be moving so quickly at WM this am.

      According to the BBC website EU has flatly refused to alter the Deal.

      So, she goes to the people, – my deal or Remain. Either ways the weasel Tories stay in power… so it’s party before country again.

      Wonder if there is the possibility of an emergency vote of no confidence today.

      Think the ECJcourt case has them well and truly rumbled. In chess terms – ‘Check”

      Still to get the High Court ruling tomorrow as to whether the EU ref was held illegally and then the Supreme court ruling on Scottish Continuity Bill on Thursday.

      So exciting!

    36. Gerry says:


      What I mean is tha if the tories just don’t beg to move, then the whole vote is off. It’s a dictatorship.

      On the upside, I sense a serious change in tone from scotgov over the weekend and especially today from the FM. We might just have turned the corner away from the cliffedge and toward indyref2.

    37. Cubby says:

      Every time I have seen a report on the ECJ decision to rule that the UK can revoke article 50 not once has our English media ever mentioned it was initiated and progressed by a group of Scots.

      In the English media Scotland just does not exist – Scotland is invisible – except of course when they are stealing our resources they seem to remember the way north.

      Scotland is treated like a colony but it just needs Scotland to say enough is enough I’m out of this stinking union.

    38. Hang on – I smell a rat!!!! called Michael Gove.

      There was a discussion on the radio last night which stated that Gove is the last one down to speak on the debate. Apparently the last speaker could talk the vote out if they are still talking at 18.59. (assuming the vote is scheduled for 19.00 hours).

      This government is the absolute pits!

    39. Colin Alexander says:

      “Sturgeon’s suggestion would inescapably damage the cause of independence, which is undeniably served by a disastrous hard Brexit.” Correct.

      The SNP put saving “Britain” aka England, ahead of saving Scotland from a disastrous UK Union.

      Is this because the Unionists voted against the SNP in 2017, so the SNP are sooky-sooky to get unionist support back again by backtracking on indy? The well-used / worn-out policy of: “you can support the SNP without supporting independence strategy, that makes the SNP kings of UK devolution. The SNP-first safe option.

      Stu goes on:

      “We needn’t concern ourselves here with the broader strategic positioning of the SNP” . He goes on to say, the SNP’s strategy is acting in a way that Unionists cannot criticise.

      Is the SNP sooky sooky strategy to convert Unionists into independists to promote indy in the longer-term? Or is it to encourage Unionists to back a UK Union devolution SNP strategy?

      So the Unionists keep their union and the SNP keep power at Holyrood as a UK Scottish puppet govt?

      Will there be a Hard Brexit? Will the SNP, to quote Rock, have been “flogging a dead horse” for over two years, that could have been better spent preparing for a better independence campaign with a Scottish currency etc.

      If hard Brexit happens and the SNP are forced into indyref or forced into full abandonment of their manifesto, what then?

      So many twists and turns. No answers yet.

    40. Breeks says:

      Government refusing to revoke Article 50, “think how angry the 52% who voted Leave would be” says a smarmy Jeremy Hunt.

      So, we can’t risk upsetting Leave voters by offering them a now much better informed second EU referendum, but Scottish Remain voters and Scottish Sovereignty can be as upset as they like, – they are getting Fk all.

      Come on Nicola!!! Get us out of this shite. Revoke Sovereign Scotland’s Article 50! Do it today.

      NOBODY has ANY sovereign mandate to remove Scotland from Europe.

    41. Andrew Adonis has tweeted that the Gov has made a change ( DEC 6TH) to the voting Schedule stating that ” only a minister can formally move the motion” which means said Minister could talk past 7pm and the vote is lost.

    42. mogabee says:

      Hahahaaahhh gulp hahahaha

      Sorry Stu. but cannot think of anything else to say!

      Hahahahahahah hahaha hahahahah

    43. yesindyref2 says:

      This from the Herald about the ECJ ruling:

      The ruling of the ECJ will be a “preliminary” ruling to enable Scotland’s Court of Session to give its final say.

      I like the way that’s put 🙂

    44. yesindyref2 says:

      “Oh, is that the time? Oh dear, I didn’t realise it ws 7 O’clock. Oh well then, the vote will just go ahead tomorrow after all, oh dear, how sad.”.

    45. One_Scot says:

      Jeez, I can’t keep up. 🙁

    46. geeo says:

      “But we suspect that things are going to get a lot worse for the frightened Unionists before they get better”.

      Aye, especially on Thursday when the Continuity Bill either ends the Union by voting with WM, setting aside the Treaty of Union AND the Devolution Act, or decides Scots Law cannot be over ruled, which brings in, why that is the case.

      The ‘case’ of course, is that Scots law is protected forever by the Treaty of Union.

      What else is protected by same such Treaty …oh aye, the Sovereign Will of the Scots People.

      Ergo, brexit is an affront to said sovereign will and contrary to the Treaty of Union.

      SC ruling with Scotsgov means Brexit is effectively cancelled for Sovereign Scots.

      If treeza is running scared over brexit vote, she will be in a mad paddy come thursday evening.

      Lovin it.

    47. Breeks says:

      “The Prime Minister ‘s Deal should come before the House of Commons so that it can be voted down and we replace Tory chaos with a solution that will protect jobs, living standards and Scotland’s place in Europe”.

      Yeayyyyyyy. Fightin’ talk from oor Nicola….

      You know, now I think about it, … I kinda reckon that a sovereign Scotland’s unilateral revocation of Article 50 might be just the very thing to protect jobs, living standards and Scotland’s place in Europe… and correct a long standing Constitutional anomaly into the bargain.

      You can run Theresa, but you can’t hide. Wee Nicola is huntin’ ye doon.

    48. Ghillie says:

      Can any MP call for a vote on revoking Article 50?

    49. Graf Midgehunter says:

      If there was a WM Parly election tomorrow in the midst of this clusterf***, then I doubt whether the Ruth D errgh… Tory Party in Scotland would win ANY seats and I don’t think that BliS would gain any of the Tory seats up for grabs.

      Same goes for Holyrood, who would be mad enough to give the Tories/Labour a list vote?

      At least it would get rid of Murdo Fraser 🙂

    50. Meanwhile that increasingly waste of space and oxygen is at the othere end of the Big Island promising millionaire Fish Folk £37 million in sweeteners when he ‘takes back control’.
      He was interviewed on BBC Radio Jordanhill and the interviewer didn’t have the good sense to ask, where are you getting the Money, honey,or why the fuck are you hiding in a lobster pot in the North of Scotland rather than down in your spiritual home, Merrie England?
      Linklater demonstrates the logic of a paid up Trumpist.
      If Scotland remains in the EU, he actually thinks that any deal his precious England brokers with the EU 27 will exclude trading with Scotland.
      Some may call this man a fucking idiot, or a contemptuous arsehole for considering us Sweaties thick enough to buy this Murdoch Toss, but not I; I couldn’t possibly comment.
      I’m looking forward with great delight and lots of popcorn to the guff served up in Project Fear 2.
      They know that the Union is finished, but need the money to write hysterical nonsense like this.

    51. galamcennalath says:

      A lot of excitement for a Monday!

      Guy Verhofstadt
      I can’t follow anymore. After two years of negotiations, the Tory government wants to delay the vote. Just keep in mind that we will never let the Irish down. This delay will further aggravate the uncertainty for people & businesses. It’s time they make up their mind! #brexit

      Nicola Sturgeon
      So @jeremycorbyn – if Labour, So @- if Labour, as official opposition, lodges motion of no confidence in this incompetent government tomorrow, @theSNP will support & we can then work together to give people the chance to stop Brexit in another vote. This shambles can’t go on – so how about it?

    52. Doug_Bryce says:

      Absolute panic at the clown house by the thames.
      ECJ ruling has holed them below water line.

    53. galamcennalath says:

      Question. Is it possible something about the two additional imminent Brexit court cases has leaked?

      e.g. The High Court rules EURef was fatally flawed, or, the Supreme Court says Holyrood Bill should stand.

      With the A50 revocation tiling at the ECJ, the hopelessness of May’s WA, it could be Brexit plans have hit the iceberg hard!

    54. mountain shadow says:

      I feel that the Westminster Government are going to play hard ball with the EU with the threat of a hard brexit which would be very bad for the EU and calamitous for the UK.

      Time is desperately running out and it could end up a hard Brexit simply because time is up.

    55. Proud Cybernat says:

      “SC ruling with Scotsgov means Brexit is effectively cancelled for Sovereign Scots.”

      All very exciting but we need to keep our feet firmly planted on the ground with this. While I very much hope the SC finds in favour of ScotGov, I remember reading a Tweet by Joanna Cherry (some months ago so can’t find it) that she felt winning the CB case was 50-50.

      Sits with bated breath…

    56. Jack Murphy says:

      ” Government sources have said the prime minister is set to tell MPs about the delay in a statement at 15:30 GMT.

      Downing Street had been insisting the vote would go ahead.

      The pound fell sharply in response, shedding 0.5% versus the US dollar to stand at $1.26. Against the euro, the pound was 0.8% down at 1.10 euros.

      Mrs May’s Commons statement will be followed by a statement from Commons leader Andrea Leadsom – and then a statement from the Brexit secretary Stephen Barclay on Article 50 – the legal mechanism taking the UK out of the EU on 29 March…… ” BBC.

      This ‘Parliament TV’ link to the Commons starts shortly,with Theresa May’s Statement at 15:30.

    57. Abulhaq says:

      Given that the Labour party is as divided on the EU as the Tories with whom would Sturgeon be working with? Corbyn is no Europhile, he considers the EU a capitalist club.
      The SNP must serve Scotland’s interests and not be swayed by those of avowedly anti-independence UK parties. Saving the UK from ‘mistakes’ is not our business. In particular a fat mistake from which we might draw considerable profit.

    58. torquil fflufington smythe says:

      dave Stewart-12.49PM.
      Mountbatten-another Old Etonian erse, during WW2, committed men and money on a study into a project to carve icebergs into the shape of aircraft carriers which would then be towed into position in mid Atlantic.
      It surely must be the inbreeding.

    59. geeo says:

      @proud Cybernat.

      As i said, if SC rules with WM then is cannot do so without setting aside the Treaty of Union and the Devolution (Scotland) Act.

      That is even more disasterous than ruling with Scotsgov, which gives WM enough headaches.

    60. geeo says:

      Abulhaq, ye might want to slap some body spray on buddy, the stench of your fear is getting over powering there.

    61. Proud Cybernat says:

      “The SNP must serve Scotland’s interests and not be swayed by those of avowedly anti-independence UK parties. Saving the UK from ‘mistakes’ is not our business.”

      The SNP are leading the BritNat parties into the corner to engineer the perfect constitutional storm. The SNP put forward a credible and sensible compromise and purely upon the ‘Bain Principle’ whereby anything the SNP propose is rejected out of hand simply because it’s propsed by the SNP, the BritNat parties reject it thereby giving the SNP precisely the situation they are hoping to engineer.

      The SNP are using the BritNat parties’ sheer hatred of the SNP against them – and the BritNats are too stupid to realise it. I know – all very Machiavellian but hey-ho.

    62. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander

      Everyone of your posts attacks the SNP. Who attacks the SNP – Britnats. You are a sneaky kid on phoney independence supporter who is just another Britnat.

    63. geeo says:

      Well said PC…always rely on thon Bain Principle hehe

    64. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…if SC rules with WM then is cannot do so without setting aside the Treaty of Union and the Devolution (Scotland) Act.”

      If I remember the Twitter discussion correctly (and it was several months ago), that will depend on whether the SC views the Scots Parliament simply as an ‘instrument of the sovereign Westminster Parliament’ or sovereign in its own right.

      But yes, either way I agree – it’s a win-win situation for us.

    65. Luigi says:

      So, it looks like it will be the softest of BREXIT (face-saver BRINO) or remain. Another English civil war may ensue. All hell is about to break loose.

    66. Luigi says:

      The resident trolls putting in quite a shift today, I see. The BritNat fear is tangible. A hard act for Rock to follow tonight, methinks. 🙂

    67. geeo says:

      The SC can see it however it likes, the Treaty of Union is explicit in its view of Scots Law and Scots Peoples Sovereignty protections afforded via the Treaty of Union.

      I see no way for SC to over rule Scots Law on the Continuity Bill.

      WM can try argue HOLYROOD is incompetent on the CB, but there is no such argument for WM to say that Scots Law can only be approved by WM, which is what would be the consequence of saying Holyrood is an agent of WM.

      Ruling against Holyrood would therefore mean a subjugation of Scots Law which again, sets aside the Treaty of Union.

      I see no escape from that reality.

    68. Macart says:

      So now we have a PM who faces losing a vote on cancelling a vote that she was going to lose anyway?

      Scream if you want to get off the ride.

    69. Sunshine says:

      Thanks Jack (14.27) for the link to the Parliament tv channel.

    70. Proud Cybernat says:

      “WM can try argue HOLYROOD is incompetent on the CB, but there is no such argument for WM to say that Scots Law can only be approved by WM, which is what would be the consequence of saying Holyrood is an agent of WM.”

      But if the CB is outwith the competence of the Scots’ Parliament, then surely it cannot then be covered by Scots’ Law? No?

    71. Dan Huil says:

      So rabid British nationalists declare that a No Deal will be easily handled by the so-called united kingdom but will be disastrous for Johnny Foreigner. Yet britnats want to renegotiate with the EU?!

      The EU must call the arrogant britnats’ bluff.

    72. K1 says:

      This is how I’m feeling right now….

      Come the fuck on…let’s go…

    73. Dr Jim says:

      Britain declares war on Gibrovia

      See that’s what’s been the problem, if the Tories could’ve engineered a wee war with somebody they would have had their distraction, jets and big boats and bombs and stuff and Britishness but they failed to start one

    74. orri says:

      Said it on the previous thread.

      The whole document deals with Section 30 orders which are the mechanism for changing the reserved areas. In Indyref1 it was a time limited removal of specific changes to the constitution.

      It clearly states that both governments must be in agreement.

      Westminster can’t simply remove Holyrood’s powers without Holyrood consent. Which means anything they legislate on can be amended or repealed at a later date by Holyrood. International treaties might be an exception but the specific mention of EU membership indicates that it’s the exception rather than the rule.

      Even the alternatives don’t affect legislative competence.

    75. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Westminster can’t simply remove Holyrood’s powers without Holyrood consent.”


    76. Breeks says:

      torquil fflufington smythe says:
      10 December, 2018 at 2:31 pm
      dave Stewart-12.49PM.
      Mountbatten-another Old Etonian erse, during WW2, committed men and money on a study into a project to carve icebergs into the shape of aircraft carriers which would then be towed into position in mid Atlantic.
      It surely must be the inbreeding.

      Slow down there… the ice berg aircraft carrier was actually made from ice and wood pulp, called Pykrete, which was very strong and would have been up to the job and tough to sink. I think I saw it on World War Weird or something, but it wasn’t as daft as it sounds. It was a credible idea.

      You’re maybe not wrong about the inbreeding however…

      “According to some accounts, at the Quebec Conference in 1943 Lord Mountbatten brought a block of pykrete along to demonstrate its potential to the admirals and generals who accompanied Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt. Mountbatten entered the project meeting with two blocks and placed them on the ground. One was a normal ice block and the other was pykrete. He then drew his service pistol and shot at the first block. It shattered and splintered. Next he fired at the pykrete to give an idea of the resistance of that kind of ice to projectiles. The bullet ricocheted off the block, grazing the trouser leg of Admiral Ernest King, and ended up in the wall.”

    77. Frank Gillougley says:

      The commentariat are all talking about ‘the backstop’ as being the issue regarding this withdrawal agreement. Nah, the problem goes further back to the partition of Ireland in 1921.

      This is what is well-known as Karma, and Westminster are blithely unaware of it. You can’t just sweep history under the carpet.

    78. geeo says:

      @proud cybernat.

      “But if the CB is outwith the competence of the Scots’ Parliament, then surely it cannot then be covered by Scots’ Law? No”?
      So, what basis is such a ruling based on ?

      The Continuity Bill is written in Scots Law
      Claiming ownership of DEVOLVED Competences returning from the EU.

      If that is the ruling, (Holyrood not competent) then the SC is saying that Scots Law does not exist and devolution has been ended. (What is not SPECIFICALLY reserved is Devolved).

      If Scots Law cannot exist in Holyrood, where does it exist ?

      Have ALL laws ever made at Holyrood been incompetent under the same basis ?

      Or is it just Laws made using Scots Law that WM does not like that cannot be made at Holyrood ?

      That is plainly ridiculous.

      Not going round in any more circles on this one.

    79. gordoz says:

      Still cant believe there is significant support for British Tory party in Scotland. Honestly???

    80. Graf Midgehunter says:

      The vote has been deferred and she’s using the backstop as the excuse to chicken out.

      The ECJ decision – errgh – never heard of it.. waffle, waffle, waffle

    81. Macart says:

      Ayup. Vote to be deferred apparently.

    82. Cageybee says:

      My she has spent some amount of cash on brass to reinforce her neck

    83. Golfnut says:

      @ Geeo.

      All Acts going through Westminster are under English law, every such Act has to be made competent in Scotland through additional legislation either as an attendum or through the Scots Parliament. That process alone signifies that Westminster has to adhere to principals of Scots legal jurisdiction, both by the Treaty of Union 1707 and the Wales and Berwick Act of 1746.

    84. Corrado Mella says:

      “…things are going to get a lot worse for the frightened Unionists before they get better.”

      Things won’t get better for the Unionists.

      The BritNazi Establishment cabal will flee to remote shores with the monies they stashed in tax havens, to hell everyone else – especially the useful idiots.

      We’re ready.

    85. geeo says:


      Good input on legal statuses.

      Said requirement to comply the EUWA with Scots Law was rejected by WM when they inserted the Rapist charter to that part of the (15minute) ‘debate’ when Holyrood explicitly refused consent to the EUWA as it was set before Holyrood.

    86. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      BBC online running behind the issue. There’s a surprise. Haven’t managed to pick up that the SNP (via Nicola Sturgeon)has offered the Labour Party a coalition to force a vote of no confidence in the Government.

      Labour of course is frightened of a “People’s Vote” because of divison with Labour Brexiteers and wants a General Election. SNP wants “Peoples Vote” so we can stay in the EU, get an with an independence campaign doing away with the “hard trading border between Scotland and England” the unionists would love to use against us.

      My bet is we will not leave the EU. Can’t find the political betting site on my bookies at the moment. Wonder why.

    87. Proud Cybernat says:

      “If Scots Law cannot exist in Holyrood, where does it exist ?”

      It exists in Scotland, as we all know. But that isn’t the issue. We can write as many Bills in Scotland as we like but if that Bill is not within the competence of the Scottish Parliament as per the Scotland Act 1998, it is irrelevant. This is to say we shouldn’t have been doing it in the first place because, according to WM, it’s a devolved matter and, as such, is not within the competence of the Scottish Parliament. It would be akin to the Scottish Parliament passing a law on Corporation Tax but just because it is passed within Scots Parliament / Scots Law does not make it legal in Scotland i.e. within the Scottish Parliament’s competence because Corp Tax is also a reserved matter.

      In short, we can’t make laws on reserved issues even if passed within Scots Law.

      It’s just the way I see things and I would be happy to be wrong. As I said earlier, Joanna Cherry said the CB case in SC is 50-50. But as we know – it’s a win-win for us whatever way the SC adjudicate.

    88. msean says:

      Leave the EU,they said,put the uk in control of everything they said.

      Watching this chaotic caper,that may not be the best idea,lol.I think when the tories want to take back control,they really meant them,the tories,not actually Parliament.

    89. Socrates MacSporran says:

      torquil fflufington smythe Check your facts before posting old boy – “Dickie” Mountbatten did not attend Eton.

      On another issue – am I alone in becoming very tired of the Maybot, repeatedly refering to the SNP as the Scottish “Nationalist” Party.

      Let’s be generus, she has a BA (2nd class) degree in Geography, from an Oxford college. She therefore cannot be said to be stupid, and we must concur, repeatedly misnaming the SNP is deliberate and unworthy of the position of Prime Minister.

    90. msean says:

      I’m sure there was someone during the indyref campaign that stated that if Yes won,Westminster could call another ref to make sure,and bog it down that way. Surely,they could do that here with Brexit.

    91. Mosstrooper says:

      A little refrain is running through my head at the moment. It’s based on the “here we go” call only it says “we wont go, we wont go, we wont go” etc. Do you think it should be adopted for all marches or gatherings?…. I bet you all have an earworm now.

    92. jfngw says:

      As the UK verges on the edge, the PM still thinks the most important thing is saying ‘Scottish Nationalist Party’. Yes this is how small minded and insular this xenophobic English Nationalist PM is, she hates all foreigners who are not English.

    93. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Time we opened a book on what WOS’s 5000th post will be about…

    94. Anna Soubry giving it laldy saying the mood in ‘the country’ has changed. Time for a second vote.

      T May dismisses it out of hand.

      Methinks T May’s intransigence stems from the fact that if she gives ‘the country’ a second EU ref she cannot deny a second Indy ref 2 to Nicola.

      People repeating the urging for Corbyn to call a vote of No Confidence.

    95. Ian

      I think that the 5,000th posit will be centred on the fact that it is December and it is snowing – ooh look a squirrel.

    96. Dr Jim says:

      Every time they use the phrase Scottish Nationalist party the SNP should immediately bring a point of order, every time!

      Damned annoying and that’s why they do it

    97. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Got the odds few minutes ago but they suddenly seem to have been taken down again.
      It was.
      No referendum 8/13 (a bit surprising)
      Referendum 2019 6/4
      Vote to “remain” wins in referendum 3/1 (looked tasty).

      Labour don’t want referendum because if their division on the matter. Nicola has offered them support on a vote of no confidence in the government and a “Peoples Vote”.
      Playing a blinder

    98. Joanna Cherry reminding the PM that ‘the country’ is actually a Union of four nations of which two are already divided.

      Time to put the vote to the people. JCherry accuses her of a lack of courage in her convictions and urges her to put it to the test.


      Acts of Union of 1801 has just been mentioned with reference to the backstop breaching the 1801 Treaty.

    99. jfngw says:

      If there is a vote of no confidence I would assume that all those that vote for May would then be obliged to vote for her deal. After all how can they vote for a PM then immediately vote against her main policy stance, they would look somewhat hypocritical (I know that is water off a ducks back to most MP’s but this one couldn’t go unnoticed).

    100. AlbertaScot says:

      Yup, Pykrete sounds cockamamie, but it’s true.

      They tried to build one on Patricia Lake in Jasper National Park back in 1943.

      It was 1/50 scale model and the Mounties press-ganged a bunch of conscientious objectors as the construction crew.

      The gizmo was code-named Habbukuk and all the mess and rubble left behind is now a popular – but cold – wreck dive-site.

      I guess the darn thing must have melted. Who knew!

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      They should just refer to the “Conservatory Party” on the basis that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t act as though they’re stoned.

    102. Dr Jim says:

      Corbyn could’ve stopped this half an hour ago but his party is in as bad shape as the Tories
      At least the Tories face the front when they’re lying …mostly
      Labour try to face every direction at once and still can’t win

      The only Unionists left in Scotland now can only be the diehard nutters and they are a disgrace to their children, I won’t say to their country because they have no country and no country should want such people

    103. Colin Alexander says:

      “Who attacks the SNP – Britnats”.

      Who has spent the last two years trying to prevent Brexit; Brexit that would trigger the indyref2 mandate and promote support for indy? The SNP.

      I have every reason to be critical.

    104. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Ian B

      The 5000 post will probably be about the care and wellbeing of emergency kittens in the current climate of European economical and political divergence.

      OTOH …..

    105. One_Scot says:

      Lol, you have every reason to be full of crap more like. 🙂

    106. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Colin Alexander

      Think before posting. The people of Scotland voted 62%-38% they wanted to REMAIN in Scotland. This then is the settled will of the sovereign will of the people, so the SNP MPs are correctly seeking to deliver the will of their electorate.

      That that appears to make it more-difficult for the SNP to secure the Independence they crave. However, if they had ignored the will of the electorate and pushed for Independence, they would have been vilified for it by their political opponents.

      The time to push for Independence is when Brexit becomes inevitable, the SNP can then say: “We did all we could to give the people of Scotland the continued membership of the EU which they mandated us to seek.

      “Our political opponents did not agree to this, therefore, our only alternative is to seek Independence.”

      Win-win in my book.

    107. Tom says:

      Just on a point about the Act of Union – if it is broken, therefore the Union is dead. The original Act had a clause saying that Scotland must keep its own mint. That lasted just a few years.

    108. Dan Huil says:

      Once again the so-called precious united kingdom is shown to be an absolute world-wide laughing stock. Arrogant, ignorant and incompetent British nationalists must not be allowed to further damage Scotland.

    109. WM Gov. has just announced that it will not take up the Speaker’s option of allowing a vote on whether the debate can be adjourned or not.

      It has railroaded through a total disrespect for Parliament and cancelled the vote.

      Speaker had suggested that since 164 MP’s had already contributed to the debate, in any mature establishment it would be only courteous, and the Speaker’s preferred option, to allow the MP’s to vote on whether the Debate should be adjourned or not.

      Gov. just slapped Parliament in the face and the notion of bringing Sovereignty back to Parliament.

      Very disappointed with Corbyn – could have called a vote of NO Confidence an our ago.

    110. call me dave says:

      Douglas Ross might just have asked the most sensible question he has ever asked in the HOC… :-).

      On my 2nd double decker since getting in and watching this shambles run out of popcorn.

    111. Dr Jim says:

      I used to play kick the can when I was wee until the can burst, the England governments can’s burst, Kaput, broke, a dead can and they’re still kicking the thing while eveybody’s going home and nobody wants to play anymore and it’s getting dark and their tea’s oot

      This is disrespect and a disgrace of the highest magnitude to each and every citizen of each country of the UK that a government who are paid £millions between them and hold the power that they do can behave in this way ignoring parliaments in all countries of the UK and still the *official* opposition under loser Corbyn does nothing and it’s left to the speaker of the house to advise parliamentarians that they can do something about it but still Corbyn refuses because he has no party support either

      Scotland has to wait for *THESE MORONS* to make decisions?

    112. Macart says:

      No fixed date for the vote and Jeremy bottles stating Labour’s position on Brexit. TBF he also didn’t call for a vote of no confidence. January being bandied about as a likely date. Can kicking (pfft).

      Both of them putting party before people and the PM basically showing the greatest of disrespect to the chamber. As for the PM’s treatment of Scotland and the third largest party in chamber? Take a wild guess.

      This is like watching a slow motion train wreck.

    113. geeo says:

      Re: WoS 5000th post topic.

      It will be a post about reaching 5000 posts.

      I claim my fiver now….!!lol

    114. Hamish100 says:

      More bad news but hidden away

      Anyone got £1.4 billion spare?

    115. gus1940 says:

      Re Pycrete About 50 yaers I read a book about Pyke’s various schemes during WW2.

      The title was ‘Pyke The Unknown Genius’.

      Well worth a read.

    116. gus1940 says:

      50 years ago

    117. Luigi says:

      Typical Labour – when push comes to shove and now is the moment…….

      They are nowhere to be seen!

      Red Tory Cowards one and all. 🙁

    118. geeo says:

      They (Tory gov) keep desperately kicking the can in the hope that we, indy and SNP supporters, lose patience and kick the stool away before we put the union on the gallows and attach the rope.

      On a personal note, i just want to thank all you popcorn munchers out there, i am making some amount of cash from the near weekly dividend payouts from those shares in popcorn making companies i purchased a few years ago…hehe…!

    119. Luigi says:

      Methinks there may soon appear a window of opportunity for the SNP MPs to force Labour’s hand in this. Ho Ho. 🙂

      However, when push comes to shove, just remember that the Labour party is British Nationalist to its core.

      As will soon be demonstrated (yet again).

      Are ye watching, Scotland?

    120. Abulhaq says:

      Personally have no problem with ‘the Scottish sic Nationalist party’. My problem is that the SNP isn’t nationalist enough. Still waiting to hear Westminster mps use the word independence in the context of a reasoned alternative to Scotland’s present state of global, political powerlessness within the current set up.
      Watching them they do act the part of British mps rather well.

    121. Luigi says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:
      10 December, 2018 at 4:12 pm

      On another issue – am I alone in becoming very tired of the Maybot, repeatedly refering to the SNP as the Scottish “Nationalist” Party.

      It’s deliberate. She has been told to say that by her advisors. It’s all part of the “dehumanising” strategy. Other the SNP who are, after all, seen as the real enemy and the most dangerous threat to their BritNat/Empire 2 project.

      Look around you, Mrs May – the real threat comes from within. Your enemies are much closer to you than you realise. The empire is crumbling but you are not paying attention. Like many daft BitNats, you are far too obsessed with Scottish independence.

    122. Terence callachan says:

      Well said everyone on wings today, we are all in this together, some less certain than others that it will all come together in the correct fashion for Scottish independence but it makes me so proud and steadfastly happy that it could be happening, soon, wow ,to be blessed with the opportunity to be part of independent Scotland starting out afresh in the modern world is something I have been dreaming of since I was a boy.
      We can do this, our politicians are clever , up against the sneekiest most ruthless uncaring bunch of scalliwags you could ever find, it makes you wonder how such people could ever be voted into a parliament ,anywhere, what kind of people vote these draconian vampires into Westminster.

    123. ronnie anderson says:

      6.22 on a Monday night an am driven tae Drink gless of Auld Pulteney & can of Sweetheart stout its either that or ah wiz gonnae trigger the Phaser an give masel ah severe malky .

      Am pure pissed aff ah might hiv ah few .

    124. Terence callachan says:

      Englands Westminster can’t call the shots or bully the EU
      Englands Westminster will still try and call the shots and bully Scotland because they can, they know that if they crash out of the EU they will lose control of Scotland and if they lose control of Scotland they will likely lose control of NI, thereafter Wales will be wondering why they should continue to vote for labour year after year only to get the labour government they want about twice every hundred years or so.
      After that gibralter will fall and Englands true size and strength will be shown for what it is.

    125. Macart says:

      Worth thinking about. But just picture if you will, no SNP MPs present in Commons today. Imagine the Scottish benches in a post 2014 indyref going back to being as they were in years gone by. Mainly Labour, Some token Tories and Libdems kinda thing. That was their intention, yes? To crush the SNP presence and any pro indy or pro Scotland voices.

      Does anyone think, even for a heartbeat, that Scotland’s voice would be heard at all? No Continuity bill to be challenged. No ECJ option explored by a cross party team. No defence whatsoever of Scotland’s choice. I’d reckon there’d be just silence personally. Mibbies the odd bit of tumbleweed, crickets in the distance. But mainly Scotland’s population would be dragged wherever they were telt and to whatever fate was decided for them.

      I’d say that whilst we are still party to the (dis)United Kingdom? That’s why you have an SNP presence in chamber. Because someone needs to speak for the choices we make. Someone needs to say ‘not in my name you don’t’.

      As I say, worth a thought.

    126. Colin Alexander says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:
      10 December, 2018 at 4:54 pm

      Said “Colin Alexander: Think before posting. The people of Scotland voted 62%-38% they wanted to REMAIN”.

      We did. And Remain in the EU, or indyref was the SNP Scot Govt manifesto. All good. So far.

      Then it went from that to the SNP saying they want EU but will accept Single Market, EFTA etc, which are NOT the EU. They tried special deal for Scotland; place at the negotiating table; now are backing England’s People Vote.

      The SNP, accepted England’s decision that Scotland will Leave. They should have stuck with the settled will of the people of Scotland is to Remain, so they MUST Remain or it’s Indyref. They could have continued that all the way till now.

      As I said previously, maybe England will decide to Remain or it could still be No Deal Brexit.

      You see it as the SNP showing they are trying every way possible to protect the interests of Scotland. So, they can say: See! We tried everything and so now indy is the only way.

      That is a belief. An expectation. A hope. Not a fact. I see it as the SNP folding, undermining the settled will of the sovereign people, to protect the role of the SNP running UK devolution.

      I no longer have your faith that the SNP regard indy as more important than SNP devolution, so I’ll believe it when I see it.

      If indyref is called then I and the SNP will be on the same side. Until, then I will criticise to put pressure on the SNP, if I can, that they promised EU or indyref, so must keep that promise.

    127. ScottishPsyche says:

      The next time anyone is accused of playing politics, they should be reminded of this day. The concept of shame is alien to Theresa May – how she can face the mirror never mind the world with this performance is beyond me. The Ministers she sent around the UK selling her deal have been humiliated and she has lost what little credibility she had.

      It is naked political survival tactics to delay the vote indefinitely. She need not worry, Corbyn has no intention of stepping up now or in the near future – what pathetic specimens the two of them are.

    128. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Colin Alexander @ 18:31,

      All this urgency for indy from the former earnest advocate of some kind of federalism within the UKUnion.

      The only common factors between then and now being constant carping at the SNP and an utter lack of credibility.

    129. Orri says:

      The word normally is absent from S30 unlike that for the bit allowing Westminster to legislate for Holyrood.

      On a slightly different tact.
      If I miss my guess then there may be a bit of fast and loose going on. Parliament may be being deliberately misled about the Meaningful Vote not being a concession but theirs by right.
      If May’s proposed treaty is covered then there might be an attempt at laying it before the Houses without official notification. 21 working days pass without an objection and May can sign of on it. Just make sure neither the HoC or HoL realise what’s being done.
      On the other hand perhaps this debacle is an official starting gun and Westminster now get to vote without the Government being able to stop them.

    130. wull says:

      I appreciate Joanna Cherry very much, and rate her very highly. However, I do wish she – and everyone else in the SNP, from Nicola downwards – would deliberately refrain from ever making any further mention of a ‘4-nation Union’.

      That language was invented by Unionists with the specific intention of equating Scotland’s legal status, and her standing within the UK to that of Wales in particular and, simultaneously, of Northern Ireland as well. It is the language of denial.

      For it deliberately denies the reality and terms of the 1707 Acts of Union. And it does so by presuming and deliberately fostering the assumption that Scotland is no different from Wales or Northern Ireland. That includes the entirely mistaken view that Scotland has somehow been incorporated into England, the only one of the four nations that is presumed – equally fatuously – still to exist.

      These mistaken assumptions are widespread in England. Many ordinary people, almost without realising it, take them for granted. Because they are ignorant of the political entity they belong to, and have been allowed to maintain a completely false view of its history. It must therefore be hammered home – not least by the leadership of the SNP, and all the SNP’s members – that these thoroughly mistaken views have no foundation whatsoever either in law or in reality.

      Far too many people in England presume that Scotland was incorporated into England in the same way that Wales (at least in English law) was in the 16th Century. The 4-nation concept denies the obvious fact that Northern Ireland’s status within the UK – as a ‘Province’, if that is the correct technical term – bears no resemblance whatsoever to the relation between Scotland and England within the same UK.

      The notion of the so-called ‘4-nation Union’ was invented to give credence to a lie. The underlying lie that it propagates is that what seem to our southern neighbours be the three smaller or minor ‘nations’ all belong, without differentiation, to the big and important one, the only one that counts. In other words, the UK, understood as the 4-nation Union means everyone else is united with England. (And, we may add, besides which, hardly with each other, though that is another story …). The 4-nation Union idea = England uber alles, with all the other minor insignificant peoples and places equally incorporated into her (England).

      This is the lie that underlies the completely false concept of the ‘4-nation Union’. And the purpose of its invention was, and remains, to strengthen and perpetuate that lie. And to get everybody to use it and keep using it … So that the more they do so, the more the concept will seem normal, and the more the lie will stick. Until everyone will simply take it for granted, by which time it will have done its job of … obscuring the reality of what the UK actually is, and of how it was and is constituted.

      The desired result of spreading this lie is to create confusion about the nature of the UK … and to make a complete lack of clarity multiply in the minds of everyone, throughout these islands. So that a generation or two down the line, no one will ever again be able to think the matter through in a straight and honest fashion. And if some still do, they will be marginalised as cranks and crackpots.

      History is being ignored and torn up, to be replaced with a false narrative which straightforwardly denies – and keeps denying – the plain facts of the matter.

      In other words, this is propaganda at its most insidious, and in the worst sense of the term. The ‘4-nation union’ concept is the visible tip of an enormous underlying subterfuge. It slides in like the snake in the garden, in an apparently innocuous form, its fangs hidden but its inner intention entirely venomous.

      For it gives expression to a seemingly true untruth – there do ‘seem to be’ four ‘nations’ making up the one ‘UK’ … it’s obvious, isn’t it? You peoples of the lesser ‘nations’ should not complain: we are giving you your place, within the whole. Aren’t you lucky? To be tolerated in such a nice way! … While all the time, that new ‘4-nation’ concept sets about the truth from within and knowingly undermines it.

      This false concept is aimed at producing a false consciousness concerning what the UK actually is. Very deliberately. So that once the idea takes root in ordinary minds, ordinary people will never be able to work their way back to the reality which it will have obliterated. The SNP – and all us Yessers – must never give any credence or air-time to such a false conception of the political realities in which we live.

      It is the small lie which is used to spread a far bigger lie, a lie that it wants to plant in unsuspecting minds. So that, once planted, that big lie will take hold there, and will not be easily removed. Like a giant and ever-growing weed it will snuff the life out of the truth that the UK is a political union between two fully constituted nations, held together by a Treaty which each of the two can always rescind, thereby bringing that union to an end. It is the Union of two kingdoms, that of Scotland and that of England, and not a 4-nation Union at all.

      We can have no truck with that lie. We can never give it credence, and whenever it is used we need to oppose it loud and clear.

      We should not even be using the language of that lie. Because each time we do so the lie itself gets emboldened, as do those who promote it, and it gains by stealth a little bit more ground. Lies have to be opposed totally; there can be no compromise with them.

      The UK is emphatically NOT a 4-nation Union.

      Whatever Northern Ireland is, it is certainly not a nation. Scotland most certainly IS a nation, as is England, and they are the two nations which make up the UK.

      I would certainly agree 100% that it is entirely correct and permissible to talk of Wales as a nation, but the relationship of Wales to England bears no relation to that between England and Scotland. The 4-nation Lie wants us to believe that these relationships equate with each other, but they do not, and never have done. It wants to reduce one of these relationships (Scotland-and-England’s) to the other (that of Wales to England), but it cannot be done. The histories are quite different, and the relationships are not so reducible.

      It goes without saying that Wales has all my sympathy, and I look forward to the day when she at last escapes from the clutches of England. Just as I of course look forward to the day when Scotland will finally bring the UK to an end by becoming once again an independent country. And I also look forward to the day when Northern Ireland becomes again a full part of the nation to which it belongs and from which it was so artificially hived off.

      And, of course, that is not the end of ‘looking forward’, for I will also rejoice when England at last becomes what it so obviously now wants to be anyway – that is, quite simply, herself. Simply the English nation – let her be. May that too happen as quickly and as peacefully – and as harmlessly – as possible.

      Instead of this ‘4-nation Lie’, why can’t everyone just drop all the pretensions of bygone times? Why not cast aside the outmoded forms of history that prevent us all from progressing? Why can’t each of us happily become once more our own true selves? Hanging on to whatever is noble and worthwhile from our past, and shedding what is not? Even England will feel, and actually be genuinely liberated when she realises that her imperial trajectory has finally hit the buffers, allowing her to make a much more worthwhile contribution to the future once she unshackles herself from its illusions.

      Instead of a fictitious 4-nation Union, what we need is four neighbouring countries each making their own worthwhile contribution to the world around them. It might even be the duty of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland not only to become free, for their own good, but to set England free too, for her good as well. Freeing her, that is, from her outmoded, past-inspired illusions, which – alas! – are making her mentally (and politically) ill. Nothing else really seems to make much sense.

      As today’s episode of that well-known ‘soap – i.e. down-the-drain – opera’, commonly known as ‘Westminster Shambles’, so aptly demonstrated.

    131. Bill Purves says:

      The section 30 order also broke the treaty of union as it broke the claim of rights that the Scottish people are sovereign, this was confirmed by a vote in Westminster parliament recently.

    132. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland

      I have NEVER advocated any form of UK federalism.

      I did suggest sovereign Scotland could be part of a confederation, which is a much looser set up of cooperation where Scotland would remain an independent sovereign state – not part of the UK – but many months ago accepted English nationalist WM Govts would never accept and respect that, so indy is the only option.

    133. galamcennalath says:

      Macart says:

      Can we all say BURACH?

      The comments are interesting. As far down as I got, they were polite enough. But … two totally opposing views. There can be no compromise, I fear.

      Brexiteers want control of everything, curbs on free movement, and no financial contributions. Remainders want to remain in at least the single market. There is a big gulf with not much middle ground.

      Scotland needs independence close to the EU, Ireland needs to reunite as a new country, and England needs to work out what it really wants, painfully.

    134. Gary45% says:

      Votes delayed, because Treeeza wants her crimbo sprouts in No10, Fluffymeister will cling, on until he gets the nod from the Lords £££$$$ Kerching and then his daft laddie will get his job.(keep it in the family at ANY cost)
      Tory = No morals, No!!! the list is endless.
      Although I despise the Royal Family for all they stand for, maybe its time Brenda stuck her neb in and shut the wee racist Britnats up. She has been paid handsomely for the last decades for simply waving her hand. The Daily Heil reading wukfits would at least do what Brenda says, hope and glory and all that bollocks.
      “Mon Brenda I dare you”.

    135. North chiel says:

      Agree wholeheartedly with “Wull@ 0645 pm” . I too, was dismayed with these comments made in the HOC . At a time we should be continually emphasising the Acts of Union of 1707 between the Kingdoms of England& Scotland ( in fact we should be “ ramming it down their “ Unionist throats” ( metaphorically) at every opportunity, particularly within the context of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland and the diametrically opposed outcomes of the EU referendum between the 2 Kingdom signatories of the Union treaty, it is disappointing that Ms Cherry did not emphasise this point.However, possibly and to her credit she possibly did not want to not include N.Ireland& Wales in her question (This could have been subsequently been mentioned after say an initial mention of the “ Union treaty”?).

    136. ronnie anderson says:

      The road to Brexit is littered wie cans getting kicked down the road . Tomorrow tomorrow is only ah day away ? or is it .

    137. Cubby says:

      I’d like to reassure all in Scotland that British Nationalists lie and they lie all the time on just about everything.

    138. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Colin Alexander @ 18:52,

      I could go back over past threads and dig out all the arguments various posters had with you on that very issue, Mr. Gaslighter, but life’s too short to bother that much with diversion-merchants like you. But it’s all there in the public record,

      (Of course, it could have been your all-caps buddy wot dun it then ran away… )

    139. Bill Hume says:

      All things considered…….it’s been a good day.

    140. JLT says:

      It was an economic crisis that created the Union in 1707.

      It will be an economic crisis that will tear the Union apart.

    141. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bill Hume @ 19:33,

      True that. It’s fascinating in a kind of quasi-horrific way to watch the HoC slowly disappearing down a plughole of its own making…

    142. Albert Herring says:


      Why not email Joanna directly?

      joanna [dot] cherry [dot] mp [at] parliament [dot] uk

    143. Dan Huil says:

      @JLT 7:34pm

      To paraphrase: It cam wi a crash; it’ll gang wi a crash.

    144. Cubby says:

      The game is a bogey. So says Stewart Mc Donald SNP Glasgow South in the debate in H of Commons.

      Bogey Burach – whatever – get us out of this madhouse SNP.

    145. robertknight says:

      Do not have anything near you when you look at the clip.

    146. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander 6.52pm

      Well well well a post in which you are not slagging off the SNP. What a day – wonders will never cease. Be careful you will miss out on your Britnat Xmas bonus if you do not get back on message. Yes you know the one you have been selling for a long long time – SNP baaad.

      How about a Britnat baaad post or are you too worried about your Britnat bonus.

    147. galamcennalath says:

      Just thinking about the ‘people’s vote’ (stupid name). Surely the decision would now be … May’s deal, or not? Simple. Classic two way choice. Each completely defined and there for all to understand.

      Now that the unilateral cancellation option has been clarified, that must be the default. In a referendum, the status quote should be one option, always.

      Leave the EU on the deal the elected WM government and the EU have agreed, versus Reman in the EU.

      But what of all the other options cry the multivarious factions supporting each? Well, they can formulate a policy, create a political party, stand in a general election with a manifesto, get elected as government, negotiate with the EU …. THEN have their way.

      Will it all fall into place with this obvious common sense arrangement? Nae chance!

    148. cearc says:

      Not only the use of ‘Nationalist’ but May repeatedly addresses Joanna Cherry as an ‘honourable member’. Whereas the correct term for a QC in their parliament is ‘learned member’. A point that the speaker should have picked up on.

    149. call me dave says:


      Whaaaa..ha..ha..aaaagh!! 🙂 Good find. Thanks for posting.

      Must dig out the trilogy again. It’s been a while.

    150. Thepnr says:


      Very funny. That’s how to do political satire.

    151. Phil says:

      Wull stated @ 10 December, 2018 at 6:45 pm

      “I appreciate Joanna Cherry very much, and rate her very highly. However, I do wish she – and everyone else in the SNP, from Nicola downwards – would deliberately refrain from ever making any further mention of a ‘4-nation Union’. ”

      Thanks Wull.

      Cannot state and re-state the Scotland / England 2 states relationship often enough. Especially in unexpurgated media like broadcasts direct from the floor of HOC. MSM will always ignore this truth and substitute some flavour of lie in its stead.

      It may be coming so soon that no further general election or referendum is required to gain independence for England (and for Scotland) if the courts and HMG inadvertently conspire to break apart the 1707 Treaty of Union by expunging its binding statements which describe our relationship.

      Scotland will need only send a letter to (¿Her Majesty?) to point to the breaking of the Treaty of Union and make the statement that Scotland is now not part of The Union, nor would England be, and both would become sovereign independent states.

      For this very eventuality many arrangements the working, sovereign Scottish Government will need ought to be in creation now. Some, (the Bank) apparently, are in development.

    152. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi wull says at 6:45 pm.

      You typed,

      “I appreciate Joanna Cherry very much, and rate her very highly. However, I do wish she – and everyone else in the SNP, from Nicola downwards – would deliberately refrain from ever making any further mention of a ‘4-nation Union’.

      That language was invented by Unionists with the specific intention of equating Scotland’s legal status, and her standing within the UK to that of Wales in particular and, simultaneously, of Northern Ireland as well. It is the language of denial.”

      That comment is in the same chord as a comment I posted on my Facebook page a couple of days ago, regarding UDI. I will embolden the pertinent sentence.

      One more thing tonight…
      There are a number of Yessers who promote the idea of a Scottish UDI. This is why that’s unnecessary.

      This is from:-

      “Unilateral Declaration of Independence
      a declaration of independence made by a dependent state without the assent of the protecting state”

      As the kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England are in a “voluntary” union of parliaments, neither kingdom is “dependent” or “protecting”. They are, legally, equal partners in that union.
      Either kingdom can dissolve the union if it feels that the union is not serving it.
      The status quo, prior to 1707, would then exist, ie two separate, independent kingdoms.
      No UDI required.


      “A unilateral declaration of independence (UDI) is a formal process leading to the establishment of a new state by a subnational entity which declares itself independent and sovereign without a formal agreement with the national state from which it is seceding”

      As the kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England are in a “voluntary” union of parliaments, under the terms of the 1707 Treaty of Union, either member of the union removing itself from that union, does not lead “to the establishment of a new state by a subnational entity which declares itself independent and sovereign without a formal agreement with the national state from which it is seceding”.

      Neither Scotland nor England are “subnational entities” – they are equal partners in a union of parliaments.

      Once again, Either kingdom can dissolve the union if it feels that the union is not serving it.
      The status quo, prior to 1707, would then exist, ie two separate, independent kingdoms.

      No UDI required.

      It’s my belief that the seeds of the UDI weed were planted by pro-union agitators, probably by “concern trolls”. Some on the YES side of Scotland’s independence campaign then ran with it, muddying the waters in their wish for any means of achieving independence for Scotland.

      Legally, Scotland cannot declare UDI – coz there’s no need for it! The majority of Sovereign Scots just have to ask the Scottish Parliament to dissolve the 1707 Treaty of Union, under the terms of the “Vienna Convention on the law of treaties” (1969). (Google it!)

      The propaganda is being spread and the ‘slightly gullible’ on the YES side are inadvertently promoting it.

    153. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Apologies- totally O/T

      Buchanans of Greenock have just started putting Union Jacks on their packets of sweets’
      I have sent them this letter.

      The Directors
      Buchanans of Greenock

      Having enjoyed displaying, selling and indeed consuming your excellent Pounders for several years now we are sad we will have to stop doing so.
      We were particularly happy to sell good quality Scottish sweets (though there are other brands accessible) but the addition of Union Jacks to your packaging means we will be looking elsewhere for our confections.
      There may indeed in Dunoon be a number of Rangers supporters who might be inclined to buy your Dolly Mixtures but there are many, many more people who will be less likely now to patronise your products. The addition of the divisive Union Flag is an inappropriate political statement which has no place in sensible retailing.
      It is also commercially stupid. A very large section of the West Central Scottish community have for political reason always found the Union Jack offensive and they have been joined now by a cross section of the rest of the community who no longer have any time for the British union. It may have escaped the notice of your marketing geniuses but around 50% of the people of Scotland now no longer support the British union and in many parts of central Scotland this sentiment is now a significant and growing majority.
      If you imagine that putting Union Jacks on your produce will change the political sentiment or have any effect on those who enjoy the odd Mint Imperial or Liquorice Comfit (except to persuade them not to purchase your brand) you are deluded.

      David McEwan Hill
      The Forward Shop
      186, Argyll Street

    154. galamcennalath says:

      “Leo Varadkar said on Monday preparations for a no-deal Brexit should intensify”

      Someone needs to do something about this fiasco, NOW.

    155. Colin Alexander says:


      UK bad has been shown over and over again since DevoMax promises turned out to be Devious Max. Along with making Scots MPs second class MPs with EVEL.

      I could go on and on about the broken promises of the NO campaign. A major one being the broken promise that NO guarantees Scotland’s membership of the EU.

      I can see some merit in the SNP campaign re Brexit.

      I can see the SNP want to keep Scotland aligned with EU rules, even if not in the EU fully.

      I’ll be generous and say the SNP knows: That means if Scotland became indy and Scotland’s people wanted EU membership they would already be aligned with EU regulations, so membership would be straightforward.

      Conversely, I’ve no doubt, with the Brexit power grab,if it succeeds, WM will immediately try to make Scotland non-compatible with EU regulations, if they can, to try and close that route to quick EU membership for Scotland and tie Scotland ever closer to England and away from the EU.

      Easier EU membership for indy Scotland is one reason the Unionists WON’T mention when howling in protest over the possibility of the UK remaining aligned with EU regulations.

      So, I support the fight over the Continuity Bill.

      If EU devolved powers are grabbed to WM instead of remaining devolved so going to devolved Holyrood, almost all power will be concentrated in WM.

      Scotland would be under WM’s control more than it has ever been in the last 40 years.

      The Brexit fight is not just about the EU, it’s about the very existence of sovereign Scotland v absorption into Greater England.

    156. Elmac says:

      So the vote is pulled and May rides roughshod over Parliament’s right to decide whether the vote should go ahead or not. Yet more contempt of parliament and further proof that we live under a tory dictatorship. In Scottish parlance the woman is, and has always been, a lying cow. Now she has extended that definition by the addition of 3 letters – ARD. She is a cowARD, incapable of putting her money where her mouth is. What a disgusting incompetent corrupt shambles this is. We all know the woman is the puppet of the money men who stand to make a fortune through the UK crashing out of Europe. The rest of the 99% will pay for that for the rest of their lives and their kids and grandkids ad infinitum.

      At least we have an option and there is evidence that the Scottish population are beginning to see through the BBC and MSM lies. If we fail to take this opportunity to exit this stinking union now then, as a nation, we deserve what is coming to us. I do care for those south of the border and in Wales who have no such option. Corbyn?? Don’t make me laugh. He is an inconsequential wimp.

    157. geeo says:

      Wittering british nationalists in clear panic mode.

      Hilarious to behold.

    158. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Socrates MacSporran at 4.54.

      Colin Alexander’s problem is that he thinks he is very clever and we are all stupid.
      He confuses this “cleverness” with wisdom.

    159. HandandShrimp says:

      Just when you think Westminster can’t get any sillier it does.

    160. Jock McDonnell says:


      It was private debt & bribery.

    161. Capella says:

      I sat through that interminable disaster this afternoon ie the Westminster Parliament trampling all over democracy. Theresa May made a statement – they will not put her Withdrawal Agreement to a vote tomorrow and so the debate which should have been held today – on the Union – will no longer take place. Nobody knows when the debate will be resumed or when the vote will take place, if at all.

      It seems that the CJEU decision, and the pending decision of the Supreme Court on Thursday, have caused some panic in the ranks.

      Someone in the debate said that the Labour party will put forward a motion of No Confidence tomorrow. I don’t know if that is yet another lie. Probably.

      As ministers pointed out severl times, the Labour Party promised to leave the EU in their last manifesto. So they don’t have a leg to stand on.

      Would everyone who voted NO in 2014 agree with me that this chaotic shambles demonstrates beyond doubt that Westminster government is lethal to the interests of the people and an affront to democracy.

      Not really a question.

      What an utter fiasco.

    162. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      JLT at 7.34

      No-it was Scotland’s friendly relationship with England’s enemy France and the French in the Forth and Edinburgh that was the real political reason for the Union. The economic measures were taken by England to force the Scots into union and close the back door.

    163. Giving Goose says:

      Re Buchanans sweets. If it has a jack put it back!
      As a quick finger on pulse I checked out the yoons on twitter.
      Jeezuz! What angry people worship the jack.
      It’s an angry cult right enough.

    164. Breeks says:

      North chiel says:
      10 December, 2018 at 7:07 pm

      ….At a time we should be continually emphasising the Acts of Union of 1707 between the Kingdoms of England& Scotland ( in fact we should be “ ramming it down their “ Unionist throats” ( metaphorically) at every opportunity, particularly within the context of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland and the diametrically opposed outcomes of the EU .

      I agree with you 100%.

      But I would go further, and say the Scottish Government should move beyond talking with a broken, lamentably inept and dysfunctional Westminster Government, and as was suggested this morning, move to unilaterally revoke the Article 50 notification in so far as it relates to Scotland and Scottish Sovereignty. Let us tell Europe that the sovereign people of Scotland do not wish to leave the EU, and revoke Scotland’s Article 50 notification.

      Westminster won’t negotiate with Scotland, Hell they treat us like dirt. Westminster refuses to revoke Article 50 itself, and sooner or later, Westminster must pay the price for its attempted subjugation of Scotland’s Democratic, and sovereign, Remain vote.

      Ask yourselves what kind of position and competence could Westminster pull together to confound us?

      Scotland gets to remain in the EU, and the Westminster Parliament pays the appropriate penalty for throwing Scotland’s interests under a bus.

      The time for politicians is passing. If they still do nothing, they make themselves obsolete. Perhaps we need some public ruminations about our own vote of no confidence, and if the SNP are afraid of Constitutional vocabulary, we instead place our faith in bringing further Constitutional cases before the ECJ and crippling the Union beyond the point where it ceases to function then ceases to exist.

      If you stood back and took a long sober look at Scotland since our defeat in 2014, Brexit, and in particular Scotland’s rejection of Brexit, gave us Constitutional dynamite to thoroughly wreck this damned Union. For reason I frankly find inexplicable, the SNP has been inexcusably pedestrian and reluctant from the the outset to champion Scotland’s Constitutional rights in law.

      The SNP didn’t create the Brexit constitutional watershed, the SNP has singularly failed to make any political capital from Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation, and for two and a half years have essentially been sleeping partners in an asymmetric Union which has been run with such manic incompetence it has brought the United Kingdom to the brink of a No Deal Brexit and rogue nation status when it defaults on its obligations.

      Throughout the two and half years of Brexit “negotiations” Scotland been excluded and sidelined from constructive discussions, but rather than stand up to defend our constitutional rights, the Holyrood Government has chosen to appease the Westminster Government by ignoring the unconstitutional breaches of faith imposed on Scotland by a Government of reckless buffoons wholly ignorant of Scotland’s Constitutional rights in the Union.

      Not until yesterday, when a cross party initiative took a Constitutional argument all the way to the ECJ did ANYTHING originating from the Scottish political landscape have ANY impact on Brexit, and my goodness, what an impact it may have had. It has wrongfooted Westminster, exposed their lies and duplicitous scheming and false agendas, and might yet let to the Brexit process being revoked.

      Not bad for a wee Constitutional Test Case about whether a Sovereign Power can change its mind.

      What a pity it wasn’t a big Constitutional Test Case about Sovereign Nation being Constitutionally neutered for 300 years through pernicious colonisation and subjugation, stripped of its resources and treated as a dumping ground, and merely asking to have its Constitutional Sovereignty recognised to prevent Scotland being dragged over a cliff edge by psychotic idiocy of a Westminster Government which is determined to self harm itself.

      Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If only somebody had suggest going down the Constitutional route back in 2016 rather than squander month after month in the suspended animation of a dysfunctional political process anaesthetised and pacified by wall to wall propaganda and State sponsored indoctrination. Aye… If only somebody had suggested doing that…

      To date, we Independentists have been PASSENGERS in this Brexit process. We’ve been taken for a ride, and worse, we’ve allowed ourselves to be taken for a ride. I’m fkn sick of it.

      If the SNP won’t lift a finger to defend Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, then let’s see if another cross party initiative can seek a ruling from the ECJ on whether a sovereign Scotland can revoke Article 50 unilaterally. I’ve had enough of endless, pointless, sterile political dogma to do me for the rest of my life.

      We could have brought this case, and a dozen more like it to the ECJ two and a half years ago, and had our Sovereignty and our legal personality established months, if not years ago. Brexit would have been laid to rest, and we wouldn’t now be fretting over the asinine stupidity of troughing Tory imbeciles who may or may not be about to destroy our economy because we’re too gutless and wet to prevent it.

    165. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath 6.59

      Couldn’t agree more. This was always headed toward constitutional crisis. And that’s going as far back as the legislatures warnings to Cameron before the vote even took place.

      The parties decades long use of divisive tactics split the public beyond hope of true consensus long ago. Cameron gambled for his own ends and lost because he underestimated the scale and effect of these practices. (shrugs) His choice. He was given plenty of notice.

      Now we’re looking at Karma’s response.

    166. galamcennalath says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Also questions of succession …

      The Union was, as Dave says, to “close the back door” and neutralise any threats.

    167. Famous15 says:

      Oh dear me! How sorry do I feel for the dear SOS Mundell and his acolytes on here who are pretendy yessers. The unreality of the reality is so loco that their undermining activity seems to have the opposite message.

      I am a simple soul and therefore the common sense conclusion that Scotland with all its resources ,both physical and human can at least match similarly sized nations likeNorway,Denmark or even Switzerland is clear.

      I have spent a lot of time recently in England and I do not like what lies behind Brexit. My many English friends now encourage me and my fellow peoples of Scotland to go for Indy as they are also unhappy with too many of their compatriots.

    168. Dr Jim says:

      This gamble by Theresa May that she can run the clock down and down then cross her fingers and hope that everybody goes with her option or creates a no deal then blames everyone else for what she caused is the most irresponsible behaviour ever displayed by any government at any time and probably guessing that Labour will abstain or vote for her because they’re more Unionist than she is might not bear fruit because Corbyn is gutless bonkers and nobody knows what he’ll do except maybe dump Northern Ireland if he gets the chance and Mrs May would like that too I suspect

      Remember Jeremy has always been a fan of a reunified Ireland but doesn’t want the blame by the Brits for *losing* it

      Then they can get on with their greater England project which is *Scotland the grave*

    169. Rock says:

      Rock (5th December – “In England’s Dreaming”):

      “Whether Brexit happens or not, two things are absolutely certain, in my humble opinion.

      1. Westminster will not grant a Section 30 order for a legally binding independence referendum before 2640 AD.

      2. Nicola will not dare hold an independence referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster.”

    170. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “..if SC rules with WM then is cannot do so without setting aside the Treaty of Union and the Devolution (Scotland) Act.
      That is even more disasterous (sic) than ruling with Scotsgov, which gives WM enough headaches.”

      Agreed @geeo says at 2:32 pm and that is why I think it is probable for a Union saving High Court ruling tomorrow that the EU ref was held illegally so the Political Class can make the judiciary the scapegoat for the Neo-Fascist EDL types anger at the betrayal of their Racist Wee Isolationist Wet Dream.

      Then the Supreme court ruling on Scottish Continuity Bill on Thursday might not be as explosive in breaching the Treaty (Acts) of Union as no ‘Material Change’ if no Brexit.

    171. Rock says:

      The European Court judgement proves that the European Union justice system is rotten to the core and the European Court judges who made this ruling are the lowest of the low.

      The judgement would have carried some credibility if it had added that in the event of the UK revoking Article 50, it would have to pay punitive costs and damages to the European Commission and the 27 other members states for creating two years of uncertainty and wasting everyone’s time.

    172. Rock says:

      “But we suspect that things are going to get a lot worse for the frightened Unionists before they get better.”

      The British Establishment has ZERO fear of Nicola but it is terrified of Alex Salmond.

      Nicola has fully backed the dishonest unionist civil servant trying to destroy Alex Salmond.

    173. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Having enjoyed displaying, selling and indeed consuming your excellent Pounders for several years now we are sad we will have to stop doing so.
      We were particularly happy to sell good quality Scottish sweets (though there are other brands accessible) but the addition of Union Jacks to your packaging means we will be looking elsewhere for our confections.
      There may indeed in Dunoon be a number of Rangers supporters who might be inclined to buy your Dolly Mixtures but there are many, many more people who will be less likely now to patronise your products. The addition of the divisive Union Flag is an inappropriate political statement which has no place in sensible retailing.
      It is also commercially stupid. A very large section of the West Central Scottish community have for political reason always found the Union Jack offensive and they have been joined now by a cross section of the rest of the community who no longer have any time for the British union. It may have escaped the notice of your marketing geniuses but around 50% of the people of Scotland now no longer support the British union and in many parts of central Scotland this sentiment is now a significant and growing majority.
      If you imagine that putting Union Jacks on your produce will change the political sentiment or have any effect on those who enjoy the odd Mint Imperial or Liquorice Comfit (except to persuade them not to purchase your brand) you are deluded.

    174. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Sorry about that. Ignore previous post.

    175. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock at 9.35
      Rock re-appears.

      I suspect his remark is actionable, Stu

    176. galamcennalath says:

      I sense a bit of a trap in the making.

      The far right Tories and DUP can continue to thwart May’s WA, however they can also ensure she stays in power by avoiding a general election or vote of no confidence. They will vote to ensure their no deal Brexit occurs when time runs out, but also to hamper anyone coming in with alternatives.

      May needs to decide whether she is complicit in his can kicking, or takes a radically different direction.

    177. geeo says:


      The Continuity Bill verdict will not be diluted in its strenth in the slightest by what you say about the “union saving” high court case as that case is a long way from relevence to brexit.

      It rules with the complainants, it gets appealed THEN kicked to the Supreme court.

      Whatever happens with Continuity Bill case, will be done and dusted way before that other case sees the light of day again.

      WM passed the EUWA without Holyrood consent, remember ?

      Nothing in law will save the union.

    178. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock @ 21:39,

      By the same token, you ought to have to richly compensate every unsuspecting visitor to this site whose time is wasted reading your relentless daily drivel.

    179. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I agree with you @geeo says at 9:51 pm

      I just think that the BritNats would rather sacrifice their Brexit to save the Union (and their hold on Scotlands resources).

    180. Sinky says:

      Bbc 10 o’clock TV news cuts out Theresa May’s acknowledgement that it was the SNP MPs who loudly claimed that they wanted Hoc to defeat Brexit.

    181. Lenny Hartley says:

      drama in the Westminster, the Mace was grabbed. All fun and games 🙂 Diet has gone , need to stop eating the sweet popcorn 🙂

    182. Rock says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      10 December, 2018 at 9:55 pm

      “Rock @ 21:39,

      By the same token, you ought to have to richly compensate every unsuspecting visitor to this site whose time is wasted reading your relentless daily drivel.”

      Stop being a complete plonker.

      You are hardly an “unsuspecting visitor” and anyone reading anything on the internet is doing it voluntarily knowing that different opinions to theirs will be on view.

      Only the lowest of the low judges would rule that it is okay for a EU member state to cause enormous uncertainty and costs to the European Commission and the 27 other member states for two years and then walk away as if nothing had happened.

    183. Reading that the High Court has rejected the ex-pats challenge.

    184. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      10 December, 2018 at 9:45 pm

      “Rock at 9.35
      Rock re-appears.

      I suspect his remark is actionable, Stu”

      Care to specify in what way?

      I repeat for your convenience:

      “The British Establishment has ZERO fear of Nicola but it is terrified of Alex Salmond.

      Nicola has fully backed the dishonest unionist civil servant trying to destroy Alex Salmond.”

    185. Daisy Walker says:

      So, 2 years almost up, and none of the stated aims of Brexit make any sense.

      Take back control = fuck over parliamentary sovereignty when it suits you.

      Increase trade = not in any way, in this reality.

      Protect the Union = nothing has put it under more (realistic) threat of breaking up – NI and Scotland.

      Control Immigration = bollocks, just utter bollocks>

      I spent about a year, a full year, each day, trying to figure out what the bampots were up to, what were their real bottom lines and motivations, and who was pulling the strings.

      The wealth of Scotland, and the full control of same was clearly huge, and extremely important, but…. the whole Brexit pantomime threatened that big time. It made no sense.

      The film The Spiders Web – suddenly made it much clearer. The wealth, accumulated over centuries, stolen from entire continents during the Spice Trade, The Opium Trade, The Slave Trade and the robbing of continents during the time of the Britush Empire. Suddenly the proportions were in view, and the players. Brenda and Co at the very, very top.

      The Queen and co ain’t coming to our Brexit rescue any time soon. They or their ilk have orchestrated this whole shebang.

      Brexit is about Saving the British elite from the EU Tax Haven Legislation – and that means keeping ECJ out of Britain. Whether by No Deal, or TM’ shit deal. Everything else CU or SM is all collateral damage.

      Keeping Scotland – is necessary – to pay for it, for leibensraum and because they are greedy.

      And it was all going to plan, the only vote available for MP’s was No Deal or a Shit deal – nothing else – and both options managed to keep mainland Britain safe from the ECJ and its new Tax Laws.

      The right to cancel Brexit unilaterally – really, really fucked that up.

      So now, today, has been the day for the Labour Party to step up/back and on the face of it appear to drop the ball (look useless) but in reality save the plan, the only plan the establishment have ever really had – No Deal. And isn’t Corbyn being a loyal, royal, mock socialist, unionist, English Nationalist, good boy. Again.

      There are blue tories, there are Red Tories, mini me tories – and each and every one of them serves the WM establishment and is there to play different tunes to different parts of society when the mood requires. For the benefit of what remains of this rotten British Empire.

      At every stage, at every turn or bump in the road, including today’s parliamentary fall-apart, if you view it through the lense of – its all about the elite 1% trying to save themselves from the Tax Haven legislation and quite prepared to destroy the entire British economy to do so… then it is the model that consistently fits with events, and continues to do so.

      Best wishes to all. I wonder how much money Terrible May’s hubby’s hedge fund made today with all the ups and down with the £ today?

    186. Sinky says:

      They can’t help themselves bbc news review of new Mary Queen of Scots film talks of a divided country in16th century when there were two separate countries

    187. geeo says:


      Brexit strategy (oxymoron alert) has ALWAYS been about how can they have it and save the union.

      All else is a sideshow.

      The problem with the strategy(sic) is, how do you scrap brexit to save the union…sorry..Scottish revenue flow, when you have spent hundreds of years claiming your voters subsidise us whinging jocks ?

      Especially when that Wings poll made it clear English voters would happily sacrifice Union with Scotland to ensure brexit.

      Hoisted by their own petard on a massively ironic scale….!!

    188. Terence callachan says:

      That’s the trick
      England now has a choice
      Which does it want to give up


      SCOTLAND NI and possibly WALES

      Said it all along
      Scotland is worth more to England than brexit

    189. Terence callachan says:

      Hey ..rock…
      Can’t believe how many people on here don’t like what you say
      I don’t agree with all you say but I agree with a lot
      Free speech rocks
      They definitely fear Alex
      Nicola hasn’t thrown a punch yet
      Wait and see

    190. mike cassidy says:

      David Mundell has now threatened to resign 2640 times.

      I knew that number was significant!

    191. Proud Cybernat says:

      Saw your handle Rock – scrolled on by. You are convincing very, very few (if any) here on WoS. In short – you’re wasting your time. Carry on by all means but know that you’re efforts are completely and utterly wasted.

      Just so you know.

    192. ronnie anderson says:

      Dave McEwan Hill stoap throwing Rocks or sumbudy will get upset an disappear Aw thegither now Ahhaha

    193. Golfnut says:

      @ Jockanese windtalker

      ” I just think they would rather lose their Brexit than their precious union.( or words to that effect)

      Maybe not.
      The timing of Brexit would suggest that off shore tax havens was a major issue. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the Bush. They have those billions or maybe even trillions already stashed, they are not likely to risk that.
      However, Scotland is the boulder in the ointment. The smoke and mirrors used by Westminster to fool Scotland into believing they have no power doesn’t appear to be as successful as it used to be.
      They no longer have a majority of Britnat MP’s, or lib lab majority in Holyrood to wave legislation through and keep the natives quite.
      They are struggling now through a mire of their own making. Evel was truly stupid, but the withdrawal bill was way beyond that. Endangering the Crown isn’t covered by Parliamentary immunity, which is the real reason theirs talk of changing England’s treason laws.

    194. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Notice that Katya Adler on the BBC news described the five Scottish politicians who achieved the breakthrough on Article 50 as “five anti brexit UK politicians”.

    195. Terence callachan says:

      To.. daisy walker…magnificent
      You said it all
      1% in U.K. avoiding EU action on tax havens created brexit
      England is no friend of Scotland
      It’s plain to see that in the way they treat us and disrespect us
      Yes there are lots of nice people in England
      But we can’t let England destroy is just because they have nice people
      England as a country is crushing us
      All English people have to be told you are NOT getting a say in Scotland’s future
      Any other course of action allows them to smile at you whilst ticking the NO box
      Any of you that allow that are helping the British unionist cause
      You won’t be he first
      We have been done over by people from within like you before
      Not this time though
      The net is closing in

    196. Capella says:

      Now looking forward to Stu’s 5,000th post. Not short of material this week and it’s still only Monday.

    197. jfngw says:

      Some think May is stumbling around not knowing what to do. Don’t agree, she knows exactly what she is doing. the same as she did when Home Secretary, she is determined to get her own way and is going for my deal or no deal. It’s her mode of operation and always has been.

      Watched Newsnight, still an English only debate programme, even had an ex UKIP person on, talking nonsense but the BBC love them. One of them would only acknowledge that London and NI voted Remain, I think she tried to say Scotland but the words stuck in her throat, or she was given a no go sign from a BBC handler.

      The word Scotland has been effectively banned from the MSM, it’s easier to find a Gerry Adam speech from the 1980’s than a Scottish MP on the BBC (until Ruth returns that is).

    198. Dr Jim says:

      Just had a look at a panelbase poll giving out stats on who and what age group would vote what, strange thing is there were no don’t knows, I’ve never seen a poll that didn’t include don’t knows so I paid no attention to its results

      From here on in I don’t reckon any polls will reflect anything other than the opinions of those who commission them, not even a little bit

    199. Dr Jim says:

      Is the only journalist in Scotland asking direct questions now Bernard Ponsonby

    200. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander @8.45pm

      Good try. Pity I have read all your other posts that do nothing but slag off the SNP. At least you are not a boring Britnat like your colleague Rockshit.

      Best start looking for a new job soon. The Union is on its way out and your services will no longer be required.

    201. Cubby says:

      Dave McEwan-Hill@ 8.37pm

      Well said. I too am pissed off going to buy an item to suddenly find a union flag has appeared on a product that wasn’t previously there.

      Next time I’m in Dunoon I’ll pop in and buy some sweets.

    202. Cubby says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @8.24pm

      Spot on re your comments on UDI for Scotland. All I would add is that if we talk about UDI it allows Britnats to make out we are doing something illegal/wrong. Terminating/dissolving the Treaty of Union cannot by definition ever be a UDI. As I have said previously if England terminated the Treaty would they say England was declaring UDI from Scotland. I don’t think so.

    203. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m sure most people have noticed that 2640 is 2x12x11x10, though this in itself doesn’t mean very much. But if you put the 11 to one side, and break the rest down to 2x3x4 x 2×5, an alarming picture emerges. Becuase if you take 2 + (3×4) – (2+5), you get 7, and if you multiply that by the number you set aside, suddenly everything becomes clearer.

    204. Still Positive says:

      What a total shambles in the H of C today. I went out about 7 to my local SNP branch meeting and we were all agreed on the shambles that is Westminster.

      Didn’t see much of Westminster TV when I came home just before 9pm.

      Caught up with Wings and others.

    205. Valerie says:

      @ jfngw. 11.38

      Been saying No Deal on here for months. Running down the clock. Power retention at all costs.

      No Deal makes a lot of sense, when you know the rabid Tory’s MO.

      My coffee stash is pretty good now. Time to step up on other bits.

    206. manandboy says:

      Daisy Walker, I’m in agreement with much of what you say.

      England’s Brexit misfortune is probably Scotland’s best opportunity for Independence in 311 years. I am placing all my hopes on that.

      As for Theresa May, she is not worth thinking about.

      I believe she is a ‘placeman’, installed in the PM’s job with only one instruction – to get out of the EU but still be in government. To help accomplish this, she has been aided considerably by using the methods of Vladizlav Surkov. Hence the reason for May’s evasion techniques, her repetitious use of meaningless phrases, and rarely imparting any real information about anything. Oh, I nearly forgot – and lying. All stock-in-trade techniques developed by Surkov in the service of Vladimir Putin, and designed with one purpose only – to remain in power.

      If the people behind Theresa May have their way, then it will be a No deal, and the accumulated wealth of the Establishment will remain intact as you yourself have said.

      Scotland must seize her opportunity and secure Independence.

      Hail Caesar!.

    207. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Rock @ 22:23:

      Stop being a complete plonker.

      Har, har, haaaaaaaar! =choke=

      You win tonight’s prize for a total lack of self-awareness. (Glass houses, stones, etc.)

    208. Artyhetty says:

      Re;Daisy Walker@10.34pm

      Excellent comment Daisy. Brexit was never about the ‘country’ as T. May keeps saying. It’s about the 1%. Disgusting, destructive, backward and dangerous indeed.

    209. manandboy says:


      Yvette Cooper :
      “Raised this in Commons with Speaker now – he says it has been corrected/ clarified but he cannot currently provide assurance that under the legislation there will definitely be a vote on the Government’s plan if they decide to switch to No Deal”

      Treachery afoot from May. Took me by surprise it did.

    210. sandy says:

      Wee bit of fun OT.

      Competition (two clues):- Pinpoint the poster who seemingly has at one time taken on the law, whether civil or criminal, & who was represented by a woman & subsequently lost.

      That poster has, by his postings, apparently sustained a head injury at some time which has resulted in permanent concussion & a fixation for the number 2640.

      In my humble opinion, should not be too difficult to identify.

      No prizes.

    211. North chiel says:

      Breeks @ 0910 pm , I concur entirely with your view of the utter contempt shown to the Scottish government and people by this arrogant , incompetent and now utterly discredited Westminster government . As I have suspected for some considerable time , the Westminster establishment don’t really give a toss as to what “ deal” on Brexit transpires, just as long as they are out on March 29th . However, what their overriding concern is with this “ bourach “ , is indeed ( and always has been) their “ precious precious union” . They simply will not contemplate the thought of losing their most prized possession over Brexit . ( but please please state propaganda outlets don’t dare give a whiff of this to the Scots electorate . Keep them on their daily “ fixes” of Britnat “ cultural reality tv shows and Britnat soap operas “ and state controlled “ local” radio. ).
      The time is close now and I earnestly believe our FM will take a slow and deliberate aim , and when indeed she pulls the trigger (on both barrels )she will not miss.
      Surely now , the only way that the union can be “ saved” by the Westminster establishment is for the UK to REMAIN in the EU by revocation of article 50 and/or a 2nd EU vote for remain? The other two only options are leave ( May’s deal or similar , or no deal) . In both of these scenarios , the sovereign vote of the people of Scotland has been overruled and the treaty of union has been breached. The Holyrood government material change in circumstances has been triggered, and our FM will give the people of Scotland their “ say” ( finally). How thereafter Independence is “ prosecuted” by our sovereign government& parliament is very probably what has been preoccupying our FM and her advisers these past months . Could the plan be a twin track approach of legal & political moves designed to entangle Westminster , with perhaps a “ European dimension” of sort to circumvent possible “ economic and/or political ploys “ from the Westminster establishment” ?. Who knows , however , one thing is very clear . The Westminster Britnat establishment has now got a clear choice , either remain in the EU ( backstop against Independence) or the 1707 treaty of union is over as surely the people of Scotland cannot fail their children and the generations to come for a second time.

    212. manandboy says:

      Secret Scottish-based office led infowars attack on Labour and Jeremy Corbyn
      Explosive leaked documents passed to the Sunday Mail reveal the organisation’s Integrity Initiative is funded with £2million of Foreign Office cash and run by military intelligence


    213. Kangaroo says:

      Manandboy @ 1:23am

      Having read the referred to legislation it would appear that,
      Gov. can simply NOT ask for a vote on the Withdrawal Agreement and there is NO immediate effect.

      By simply doing nothing,there are NO repercussions in terms of having to do anything.

      Neither are they required to have a vote on revoking A50.

      The consequence of this is that the default NO Deal scenario plays out on 29 March 19.

      Corbyn will NOT go for a no confidence motion. He is partmof the establishment and also wantsbto Leave the EU.

      So by simply sitting on their hands the effect is NO Deal and there is nothing anybody can do about it.

    214. twathater says:

      What I am looking forward to come Thursday , is alongside the SC’s positive decision of SG’s continuity bill is the RESIGNATION of Ken McIntosh and his baldy sidekick , the 2 britnats who asserted openly , publicly and loudly to their bbc and stv maisters that the SG did not have the competence to introduce their own continuity bill

      These tractors are obviously working against the best interests of the Scottish people and the SG , McIntosh by his alleged membership of the SIU has IMO compromised his non partisan required status to state loudly to all and sundry his assertion of the SG’S constitutional competence being illegal . it is therefore untenable that his position as an advisor to the SG is trusted so should RESIGN

      If Nicola Sturgeon and the other MSP’s had listened to his legal advice Scotland would have suffered catastrophically without any recourse to protection from our continuity bill

      Question I have to ask , was this done deliberately to subvert our rights or deliberate sabotage

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m guessing people from afar are casting their open eyes with interest on our travels towards Independence, and setting their plans accordingly for us – and for them:

      That would be another building block, a major one.

    216. Cactus says:

      Hey if May is away today runnin’ around Europe, could Westminster not just hold an ‘advisory vote’ today, ye know a bit like a ceremonial vote of things to come.

      Ye wonder how many abstentions or non-voting politicians there will be 2.

      Rumour has it that the ceremonial hoose mace will now be placed in a glassed cage under lock and key.


    217. Stravaiger says:

      @Daisy Walker

      You and I think along very similar lines.
      Have you read ‘The Sovereign Individual’, co-written by Rees-Mogg’s dad? If not, you should. It was written 20 years ago and explains why you are right. Straight from there horse’s mouth. It’s only available in paperback.

      For a book predicting the results of the computer revolution written 20 years ago it is remarkably prescient. It is more than that though. It is a book which opens a window to the mindset of the rich and priveledged, and which predicts the future of the entire civilization. It’s not for the faint hearted.

      On the plus side, reading between the lines it tells us that the tax havens are far more important to them than Scotland.

    218. Breeks says:

      If May and the Tories won’t revoke Article 50, if Corbyn and Labour won’t revoke Article 50, then what is the point of us fishing for dissenters at Westminster? How much time have we allocated towards doing this? Without wider support, what vehicle is there within Westminster to bring about a full revocation of Article 50?

      There are 108 days to save ourselves. We’ve ran around the deck on Titanic for two years now, screaming “man the lifeboats, women and children first!” but all we have proved is that we are passengers on the proverbial ship of fools.

      Enough is enough. Medals for gallantry and unrequited compassion will be of no use to us if we slip down to the same watery grave as they do. We have done all anyone could ask of us to try to save the ship. It’s time to save ourselves.

      Scotland is on its own. It actually always has been. If we wish to see any meaningful consequences from the revocation of Article 50, Scotland must lead by example and pursue the No Brexit option by unilaterally revoking Article 50 as is pertains to Scotland’s place in Europe.

      6 Scottish Parliamentarians have handed the UK an eleventh hour “Get out of jail free” card, with adequate time and opportunity to use it, and save the whole UK from economic disaster, and yet still, even before a full or temporary stay of execution, they squabble amongst themselves, goading themselves to drive faster, dig deeper…. Even the EU didn’t offer them that get out, Scotland did. The same Scotland they sneer at and deride whenever one of our MP’s gets up on their feet to speak.

      The United Kingdom won’t even concede an Irish Backstop for the essential practical necessity of avoiding the collapse of peace in Northern Ireland. They care more about their colonial dignity, (somewhat ironic no?) rather than a return to murderous bloodshed. If that’s all they care about Ireland, why the hell do we care about them?

      I call again for,… no, let’s up that to a demand. I demand we now cite Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty together with Westminster’s formal acknowledgement of our Claim of Right as evidence Scotland has Constitutional Sovereignty and Legal Personality, and thus can, and does, revoke Scotland’s “decision”, a decision we never even made, to leave Europe.

      As for our pro Independence politicians… a cautionary warning from the Abbot of Arbroath…

      “Yet if they should give up what they have begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive them out as our enemy and a subverter of their own rights and ours, and make some other party who was well able to defend us our Government….

      If returning bloodshed to the streets of Ireland doesn’t fluster England’s Brexiteers, if the time and sanctuary of revoking Brexit to regroup and think again doesn’t make a dent in England’s Brexiteering resolve, then let us simply leave in peace while we are able, and have no further part in their folly.

      A plain question for our enigmatic Nicola Sturgeon… If not revocation of Article 50 under a European Court of Justice affirmation of Sovereign entitlement, then what?

    219. Nana says:


      Brexit has shown how unequal the Union of the UK is. The PM and her government have no respect for Scotland. Her #Brexit deal has failed and her government is failing. She must put the deal to the people

      Save and share

    220. Nana says:

      Today @BiancaJagger addressed @scotparl as part of our #RightsTakeOver to celebrate #HumanRightsDay . We spoke with Bianca about the importance of human rights and how she feels about the work the Parliament is doing to ensure human rights are at the heart of everything we do

      Prof John has a number of new articles on his blog, check them out

    221. Nana says:

      A no-deal Brexit would be the deranged action of a rogue state

      1/ Olly Robbins is in town talking to the Task Force. Word is that May wants some kind of declaration clarifying that the backstop won’t be needed, that it’s temporary etc

    222. Cactus says:

      Ian Blackford to speak on BBC Radio Scotland shortly.

      Should be another exhilarating day.

      A fine mornin’ to ye Nana.

      The kettle is on.

    223. Alan says:

      You could read FM’s proposal the other way round. If UK stays in single market, then Scottish independence becomes easier – there would be no hard border, we would be in the same single market, and if Scotland joined the EU we would have, just like Ireland, the power to decide the regulations that England and Wales would have to follow….

    224. Nana says:

      Re the article below, I doubt there will be a peoples vote and Norway don’t want to play and who can blame them.
      From all I’ve read, I would say May is hell bent on a no deal Brexit and Corbyn’s in her handbag.

      No Brexit, No Exit From Brexit, and Nobody’s in Charge

      Mark Curtis says
      “My view, looking at declassified files and evidence of UK foreign policy going back 70 years, is that Britain is a serial violator of human rights, a systematic supporter of repressive regimes. This has largely been kept from the British public by the media.”

      This is an expanding collection of declassified government documents on UK foreign policy

    225. JLT says:

      @Jock McDonnell says:

      ‘It was private debt & bribery.

      It was more than that, Jock. The Scottish elite along with the banks invested an incredible amount of money into Darien. It is estimated in today’s terms (…wait for it) – as much as £100 Billion to £120 Billion pounds.

      That’s an economic crisis, mate. No matter what way you look at it.

      As to your two points, private debt – absolutely ….bribery? Well …only if we’re talking about Queensberry during the ‘negotiations’ for Union.

      But at the time when Darien failed, it created an economic crisis in Scotland. With the elite having lost so much money, it impacted on our ability to trade, buy influence, settle debts. We weren’t lying flat out like a corpse, but we were most definitely on our knees. Debate still takes place as to whether Scotland really was finished, since there were signs of profit here and there in business. As my OU Scottish studies taught us, Scotland wasn’t completely broken – ‘the Scottish Parliament and Privy Council passed a series of measures designed to improve agriculture and to stimulate industry and trade, indications of a new-found determination to turn the Scottish economy round (Smout, 1969, p,116-118). Even before this, linen exports from Scotland had begun to expand dramatically. Grain exports too had grown substantially, to such an extent that in 1705, the 1st Earl of Seafield, Scotland’s Lord Chancellor and one of the most influential pro-Unionist, but also a large landowner, was warned that ‘unless we alter our methods, or fall on some nieu ways of export, our corne will become such a drug on our hands, that we will neither be able to live or pay publick dues’ (Grant, 1912, p.415)’.

      We were poor. We had taken a devastating financial hit, but we were still operating …and succeeding in areas.

      But …it was an economic crisis.

      And once if a Hard Brexit comes …the impact on jobs, pensions, mortgages …everything …will create an economic crisis that will lead Scots to look to the alternative – Independence and access to Europe.

    226. Nana says:

      Morning Cactus, milk and two sugars please 🙂

      Re London Crossrail & Barnett Consequentials

    227. Nana says:

      A new Scottish stock exchange could begin trading in the Spring after plans received a major boost.

    228. JLT says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill

      I would say France was a side factor in all of this. Let’s flip history (a dangerous game because you’re messing with facts) …but what if Scotland had created a colony at Darien that was just moderately successful? What if its debts had been substantial, but not truly damaging? Would ‘Union’ have still been on the table?

      No matter that England was involved with the Spanish succession, both Scotland and England were Protestant countries, and Scotland had long broken with France after the fall of Mary, Queen of Scots, literally 130 years earlier. That’s a long time. Scotland was closer to England than it was to France. Union of Crowns saw to that.

      But while England saw an opportunity, which as you rightly point out – ‘to close the back door’; for Scotland, it was economic crisis. It was an economic crisis that brought us to the table and it killed 2 birds with 1 stone for England; the coveting of Scotland and the security of the British Isles.

      LOL, I have no doubt we could debate this all day, Dave, because even when I studiedthe period 2 years ago …even my Professors at Dundee Uni still debated about the factors (if you check my previous post above for Jock McDonnell, you can see Scotland’s economic stability may not have been as bad as it seems and is still hotly debated. Personally for me …it was economic crisis that created the Union. Without it, there would be no Union. How else would England have brought us to the table and what would they have really offered us to join up. Makes you wonder…).

    229. Cactus says:

      Stirred, hot and not shakened Nana, enjoy 🙂

      Ye wonder if Labour do their ‘no confidence’ thing in the PM at the HoC today and it’s successful…

      Would that mean that May would get the sack whilst on tour?

      Flying back on Easyjet to London.

    230. Nana says:


      I spotted this last evening, but perhaps Corbyn has grown a spine during the night

    231. Nana says:

      Artist taxi driver hold up the scot national front page

      Opposition leaders write to PM accusing her of showing contempt for Parliament over pulling the vote, the debate, and whether section 13 of Withdrawal Act re vote by Jan 21st still applies.

    232. Cactus says:

      Yeah things could move quickly today Nana.

      Stephen Charles Kerr, British Nationalist, tory MP, on BBC Radio Scotland just after 8am this morning.

      Let’s hear him trying to defend their position.

    233. Hamish100 says:

      It really is simple.

      Independence is better than brexit

    234. Cactus says:

      Btw Nana, mines is a hot toddy 😉

      This is all SO absorbing!

      iScotland soon.

    235. Macart says:


      “perhaps Corbyn has grown a spine during the night”

      Nope Nana. I very much doubt he has.

      He can’t afford a spine about now I’d reckon. It would expose the mahoosive divisions within his own party and Labour’s lack of ANY alternative solutions. Labour aren’t anywhere near ready for government, despite their bluster, and they know it. They need the Conservatives to carry the can for the omnishambles that is Brexit and they need a forced Brexit to provide their own PLP and membership with a fait accompli. What they do not want is government right now. They’re perfectly happy sniping from the trenches/sidelines thangyouverramuch.

      As for how much pain and suffering huge swathes of the population will have to go through for Jeremy and chooms to achieve their wet dream? Not entirely sure they ever gave a shit. Winning is everything has been the Labour mantra for many a decade now. People are disposable assets and collateral damage unavoidable to both sides of the Westminster coin. Jeremy merely puts on a sad, resigned face whereas Conservatives openly gloat at the suffering of others. At least yer Tories are honest about their brutality.

      They both ran away from their office and responsibility yesterday. They both hung the public out to dry for party political reasons. They both disrespected the chamber and its occupants. They ran away from the public and their needs. (TBF I don’t have much liking for that big hoose on the Thames either, but then I don’t pretend to like that howf or much about it.)

      Just think though, some folk believe that’s the worst day that parliament and its politics has ever seen. As I said elsewhere, no… its not. That day is yet come Nana. It’s going to get markedly worse than that I’d say.

    236. Nana says:

      On labour and the elusive no confidence vote

      The blame game begins
      Will not archive

      Carpetright deepens losses amid store closures and weak trading

    237. Davosa says:

      Stephen ‘Nonenity’ Kerr avoided Gary Robertson’s questions on Radio Shortbread. At least Kerr went on. ‘Scared of his Own Shadow Slug’ Mundell avoided being interviewed altogether. Now he really is a pathetic, cowardly piece of shit.

    238. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      I think I’ll follow Cactus and have a hot toddy, or even two or……..

    239. Macart says:


      Good plan. 🙂

      I may join you.

    240. Cactus says:

      Cheers all, ching ching.

    241. jfngw says:

      Corbyn hopes he can steal the Premiership not by leadership but by hiding in the hope that the government will end up hated. Not so much a leader, more just an opportunist. That’s how he spent all those years as a meaningless backbencher, waiting for the Labour leadership to implode, he sees it as a winning formula.

      He is useless, also has no answer to Brexit except statements he hopes placate both remainers and leavers that he is on their side.

    242. Cactus says:

      @Dominic Grieve on the wireless.

      “A who’s sorry now…”

      It’s not even 9.

    243. Breeks says:

      Nana says:
      11 December, 2018 at 7:02 am

      Yeah. Make that “Article 50 ruling shows the ECJ respects sovereignty more than BOTH UK governments do…-

    244. Golfnut says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill.

      Yep pretty close.
      1704 Securities Act, basically Scotland objected to the proposal that the Crowns, the Union of the Crowns was rejected by both the Scottish and English Parliaments,that Scotland would appoint another to the Crown, the English saw this as a threat to return the Stewart’s. There was also a proposal for the creation of a standing army, the Darien fiasco had at that time removed Scotland traditional method of raising forces through the Burgh trainedbands and and Scotland’s nobles.
      Within a couple of days of the Acts of Union between 13 and 17 wagon loads of Scotland’s Wealth were removed from the Treasury and sent south. England was bankrupt, and couldn’t even afford to pay Marlborough’s Continental army.

      England’s response, was the 1705 Alien Act, which effectively cut off the Nobles and Burgh’s trading opportunities, it was trade and the threat to remove ownership of land in England that created the Union.
      Sounds familiar to the current Westminster threats.

    245. Abulhaq says:

      Ms Sturgeon posted on Twitter:
      So @jeremycorbyn – if Labour, as official opposition, lodges motion of no confidence in this incompetent government tomorrow, @theSNP will support & we can then work together to give people the chance to stop Brexit in another vote.
      “This shambles can’t go on – so how about it?”
      Nicola Sturgeon in bid to lead the Labour party/SNP government of National UK unity? London post worth ditching that indy thing?
      I am one of many who no longer trusts this woman with her recent talk of ‘the country’…..which one?

    246. misteralz says:

      That’s politics. You don’t think a deal like that would have a quid pro quo?

    247. Famous15 says:

      SNP does NOT wish to go into a coalition with Labour,Stirrers do!

      SNP must not lead on a no confidence move! That is a trap. Labour is the official opposition so let IT lead any such move.

    248. Cactus says:

      Aye Theresa May, check ye oot sauntering around mainland continental Europe when you should be back in Westminster getting on with the day job and doing things like protecting jobs and being answerable to the hoose.

      This is an excellent build up to Thursday.

      Street party!

    249. manandboy says:

      “Just remembered I have a written message from a senior BBC bod explaining (unambiguously) that the BBC does code negative messages about Corbyn into its imagery.” Jo Maugham QC

    250. Cactus says:

      Politicians are saying on the radio that Theresa May should ONLY “come home” if she can strike a better deal hahaha.

      Has a PM ever been banished from the land before?

      UK unionists are freaking out.

    251. Ken500 says:

      Even if the SNP could raise a motion of no confidence. Labour would not vote for it. They would just abstain again. Corbyn is useless. It will have to be the Tories who get rid of May. The fall out will cause a GE election. Once the SNP make gains. Then is the time for another IndyRef . Once the dust has settled. It would not be wise to have an. IndyRef at the same time as a GE. The longer it takes the higher the support. Increasing 2/3% a year. 50,000 keel over a year. The young ones come on board.

      Trade with the EU has increased to the same as the the UK. Without Oil & Gas. Scotland would gain £Billions more selling electricity. The EU costs Scotland nothing. Scotland gets grants and investment from the EU. Often taken by Westminster. £Millions in farming CAP support taken.

      The UK Union costs Scotland £20Billion a year. Paying repayments on loans not borrowed or spent in Scotland. A higher cost of Trident and Defence. £Billions lost on tax evasion. Scotland can’t borrow to grow the economy. Farming, fishing and the Oil & Gas sector mismanaged. No investment in renewables by Westminster. Hickley Point and HS2 are a complete waste of time and money. London Crossrail now needs another £1.2Billion.

      Illegal wars, tax evasion and financial fraud have cost Scotland. Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years. The McCrone Report kept hidden. £Billions of Scottish revenues and resources taken secretly and illegally.

      The Hedge Funds are making £Billions out of Brexit. Once again the poorest are paying for it. £Billions being taken from essential services quite unnecessarily. People are being sanctioned and starved illegally. The elderly in the south are dying prematurely. The Tories are killing their supporters. How people can still vote for them is a mystery. Labour are as bad. Completely useless.

      Independence can’t come soon enough. It just needs a bit of patience.

      Westminster is a total shambles. A world laughing stock. The Tory mess about who wants to be PM. Corbyn doesn’t want the poison chalice. He wants Brexit. No opposition. Just a complete bunch of totally inadequate incompetents. What a unionist shower.

    252. Ken500 says:

      Corbyn is an agent of the British State doing their dirty work for them. Just another lying sychophant. Any so called principles reneged upon. A charlatan. Just like the members of his Party. Two faced liars. LibDems are the same. Clegg now making £Millions from Suckerman. The criminal.

    253. Colin Alexander says:

      Gina Miller got it right – again. She said that the choice was between Hard Brexit or more talks. Dragging it out would benefits the Unionists, running down the Indyref mandate.

      Brexit is a clear warning for Scotland:

      The EU Brexit negotiations reveal how unrealistic the Scot Govt’s White Paper was in 2014, offering “independence” based on cooperation, where we: “would work in partnership sharing the Pound…sharing institutions”.

      The most recent discussion paper on currency appears to have failed to learn the basic POLITICAL lessons of 2014 onwards. Sharing the Pound in some ways makes sense from a purely economic perspective. Politically, it will prevent Scotland’s independence.

      A YES campaign MUST have answers for the basic questions: our own currency, pensions, social security and funding for the NHS. Most other issues would be a distraction that muddies the waters.

      The White Paper failed to give real world answers to the most basic questions. The White Paper tried to give too many answers to too many side issues.

      The Scot Govt White Paper offered SNP-type policies to voters, the majority of which do not vote for the SNP’s policies. The Scot Govt and No campaign, to a large extent, turned it into a referendum on the SNP and SNP policies.

      Yet, the basic reason for indy is that AFTER indy, the people will decide the policies for their country, such as EU membership or not.

      Have these lessons been learned? Will they be learned? Are the Scot Govt preparing the groundwork or remain fully focused on Brexit, where Scotland’s vote to Remain has been ignored from day one.

      Nobody knows; the Scot Govt and FM don’t tell us: how does that encourage support for YES?

    254. Ken500 says:

      Agent of the British State. Agent provocateur. Fifth columnist.

    255. The Milngavie Fox says:

      I saw a fox (no not that one!)walking up Downing Street on last nights extended TV news. Perhaps Mrs May should have asked it in to see if it could come up with a Cunning plan B,C,D,E etc…………………………………….

    256. Effijy says:

      Let’s have a look at the Tories and May’s performance:
      2.5 years of bull shit and nothing achieved on the end of it.

      Brexit means Brexit?
      Brexit is red white and blue?
      We will get the best possible deal. True but a stinker of a deal.
      She says you only have 2 choices deal on the table or no deal?
      Then they announce that UK can withdraw from Brexit- option 3
      Then she returns to EU, after telling us that she can’t, to look for
      Another deal- Numver 4.
      Now it looks like option 5 a re-run of the Brexit Vote,
      Or option number 6 a general election.

      This cretin is in charge of Scotland and she can only see 2 of 6 options?

      Get her out of Downing St, the Tories out of Westminster and Scotland
      Out of the U.K.

    257. Sinky says:

      BBC continue to airbrush SNP out of the Brexit debate. Inexcusable for them to ignore T May’s specific reference to SNP cheering for No Brexit option in Commons yesterday.

      Didn’t watch the BBC TV Special last night but told they only had Tory and Labour on while Call Kaye this morning had UKIP rep on plus Labour hack Catherine McLeod but no SNP rep so far as I heard (although missed some parts).

    258. Dr Jim says:

      This can be solved with a border poll in Northern Ireland and the DUP can object till they’re blue in the face but they don’t represent the vote in their country and NI is under direct rule from Westminster

      If the people of NI want to reunify with the Republic then it would be up to the Republic if they wanted to accept NI because it would mean absorbing their poverty and poor GDP

      The Brits always end up doing the same thing over and over because they have no reasonable arguments, it always comes down to threatening bullying or reneging on promises to get what they want it’s why they hate democracy so much

      Democracy to the Brits means Adam ate the apple so that’s it till the end of time, we had a vote so Jesus gets crucified, nobody else gets on Noah’s magic Zoo boat you must all drown

      Brits are Zoomers but lying dangerous Zoomers that no country needs nor should want, wherever they go they are always Trouble with a capital T and that stands for Timebomb

      The EU have been patiently talking to these nutters for two years and politely putting up with their drivel and what has it resulted in? The Brit Zoomers are already threatening NOT to pay the debt they agreed to at the beginning of the talks and it’s not even over yet

      The Brits can’t be trusted on anything, except to lie and cause trouble, it’s what they do, eh and the EU know it

    259. mike cassidy says:

      I’ll say this much for Ruth Davidson.

      Perfect timing for her maternity leave!

    260. Dr Jim says:

      See if Ed Miliband had listened to Nicola Sturgeon none of this would have happened

      Now Corbyn’s doing the same

    261. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I understand Theresa May turned down Baldrick’s cunning plan to solve the brexit bourach, as being too-sensible to ever work.

    262. Dr Jim says:

      Brits of all descriptions complaining Nicola Sturgeon has secret alterior motives in getting involved in offering help

      The FM doesn’t have to do anything, she could just sit back and watch it explode and Scotland will benefit by default, of course the Brits would blame her for that too

      Brits are such partisan belligerent idiots

    263. Maolbeatha says:

      Colin Alexander says:

      Have these lessons been learned? Will they be learned? Are the Scot Govt preparing the groundwork or remain fully focused on Brexit, where Scotland’s vote to Remain has been ignored from day one.

      Nobody knows; the Scot Govt and FM don’t tell us: how does that encourage support for YES?

      Nicola Sturgeon said all along that she would make the call on Indy2 Once the details of Brexit were known.
      That makes perfect sense doesn’t it?
      Then there is a clear choice Indy or Brexit (Whatever that means at the time)
      Theresa May is in a similar position in that she cannot go to MP’s for a vote either. Her problem is that she knows she will be defeated. So she plays it out by going to Europe again to “negotiate” on the Backstop.
      That is a dead end if what is being quoted is true.

      So May comes back with nothing. Then what?

      Remember that those of us on here are already convinced of Indy.
      We have done our research and looked at the facts.

      But also remember in 2014 there were apparently more that thought differently.
      These people had different facts and different views and voted accordingly
      They, perhaps trust the BBC and Westminster more than the SNP.
      They are not yet convinced.
      For these people Nicola Sturgeon needs to be cautious, reasonable, conciliatory.
      To do, and be seen to be doing everything possible to avoid/ mitigate Brexit.

      If she starts showing her hand too early all he reasonable efforts she has made will be labelled as false.
      If she shows her hand too early and Brexit is cancelled we lose the biggest demonstration of Westminsters ineptitude and contempt for…. well everybody.

      The undecided need to see the effects or feel the effects, to realise the harm to them as individuals Brexit will do to make them see that Independence is the better choice.

      Until they see that we cannot make the best use of Westminsters monumental mistake.

      So I believe that she is correct to not even mention Independence too often just yet.
      However behid the scenes I would like to believe that there is a strategy in place just waiting for the right time, when Brexit is bolted in.

      Do I know that for certain? Of course not. Its an opinion, a hope.

      Think like an undecided voter, think scared of uncertainty, think the SNP are bad (cheers BBC) think like the opposition, not like an ally.

      Then maybe it makes sense why Nicola is biding her time.

      Of course the currency pensions, media, and all the other things we learned in 2014 need to be addressed. Do you think the SNP cant see that too?

      For all of us on all sides its wait and see for now.
      Who the hell can predict what is going to happen next?
      If you cannot at least estimate your opponents position how can you know where to attack?

    264. Arabs for Independence says:

      Dr Jim @ 10:35

      I agree she could have sat back and watched the chaos unfold. Maybe the FM has done her bit now and needs to start concentrating her energies on a new independence campaign.

      Although she will always be criticised by the ultra unionists, there must be a great many who have admired her positive, can do attitude, albeit grudgingly.

    265. Cubby says:


      Happens all the time. Joanna Cherry on Victoria live on BBC hardly given any time on Brexit discussion this morning. In fact she was rudely told “that’s enough Joanna” when she had hardly said anything. Two Tory MPS and the labour MP and Libdem MP allowed to talk on and on and on. It is clear the BBC detest the SNP and don’t mind showing it on live TV.

      Scotland counts for nothing in the U.K. other than looting Scotlands resources. Time to dissolve the Treaty. Time for England to stand on its own two feet.

    266. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@9.42am

      Back on the Britnat script (SNP BaaaaaaD ) to make sure you get your Britnat Xmas bonus. Sorry to tell you that you’ll be looking for a new job soon.

    267. Cubby says:

      Dave McEwan Hill
      Jock Mc Donnell

      I think your discussion would be aided by putting the points raised by all of you clearly into the
      HOW and WHY categories. Or the means and the motivation.

    268. Cubby says:

      Alan @7.11am

      Spot on just what I thought myself. England in Single market customs union but out of EU independent Scotland in EU = no trading issues between Scotland England after independence.

    269. Daisy Walker says:

      So, the next Brexshit deadline is 21/1/19. On that date WM has GOT to sign off on a deal or confirm No Deal.

      Yesterday’s antics indicate there is no way they are going to risk a vote in WM. Or a PV.

      Jermie Corbyn – mock socialist that he is, will continue to be a good boy and not bring down the Govt.

      The Supreme Court decision on Thursday is important. Suspect it will get ‘postponed’ now that they’ve discovered this tool in the tool box.

      Have a good Christmas everyone. I’m away to read a book about what/how to stock up on emergency supplies.

      Peace and love.

    270. ronnie anderson says:

      Tereza May’s not coming back from Brussel’s waving a piece of paper . The EU has nothing more to offer, there is no giving way on the 4 pillars of the EU( free movement ect ect ) May is running down the clock & Corbyn hasn’t got a clue , he’s just sitting on the sidelines hoping for a GE .

      Cactus/Macart/Nana we bitty to early in the day tae be imbibing the faw doon juice even under the guise of medicinal purpose .

      Ah at least waited last night tae the sun was over the yard arm lol.

    271. call me dave says:


      Heard Cherry being picked on there and ushered back North of the Wall… Good old Big Auntie nothing to hear here.

      Has that vile pleader got round Europe yet to discover all the doors closed.

      Will Jeremy cough up a motion of ‘no confidence’ today?

      Many hope he will but there are a few who think he wont.

      Now is not yet the time I heard a labour woman say on GMS Auntie with a kilt this morning. (didn’t catch her name)

      Stocking up on Beetroot and Edam cheese at the moment, sickened myself on the popcorn. 🙂

    272. Proud Cybernat says:

      Ah, Abulhaq – concern trolling again. We see you.

    273. Call me dave

      The Labour party has said that they will not initiate a vote of ‘No confidence’ today. They are waiting for TMay to return from Brussels.
      They say that she will not have anything different to offer them so her deal will be just as likely to be voted down, and if they wait they think they will be more likely to get disgruntled Tory MP’s to back the vote.

    274. Proud Cybernat says:

      “So, the next Brexshit deadline is 21/1/19. On that date WM has GOT to sign off on a deal or confirm No Deal.”

      Read somewhere that May can defer the vote until as late as 28th March 2019. Not sure if that’s true though.

    275. Valerie says:

      Bloody Diane Abbott attacking Nicola on Twitter for pleading with Corbyn to call for No Confidence vote.

      Corbyn has secured an emergency debate today on the subject of the cancelled vote. WTF is there to debate? That was done yesterday, anyway.

      I understand SNP have to do everything, but now it’s open abuse from Labour MPs for trying to tackle the mess. It’s sickening.

      A lot now exercised by the Jan 21 date, as they realise this is nearest to No Deal we’ve ever come. Good, let’s hope Scots wake up too, cos some are still supporting Corbyn like Jonathan Shafi out on Twitter, it’s really unbelievable they believe he’s the Messiah.

    276. schrodingers cat says:

      the deal is dead, treeza only succeeded in avoiding a coup de grace.

      no one believes it is an option

      talk on twitter about a leadership challenge to may

    277. Proud Cybernat says:

      18m18 minutes ago
      .@IanBlackfordMP and other opposition leaders have written to Jeremy Corbyn calling on Labour to put forward a motion of no confidence in the Conservative government.

    278. One_Scot says:

      Slightly off topic.

      I cannot tell you how F’in angry I am.

      Watched a bit of an interview on RT last night where some clearly smart person was listing all the wars and conflicts that the UK is involved in and supplies weapons for and how the UK media and Westminster hide these stories/facts from us.

      He mentioned how the UK supported the Vietnam war and supplied weapons for the conflict in Yeman.

      I will be honest I am not up all all these conflicts but I have just sat through an appeal during a Sky News break form some nondescript British actor asking for money to help children in Yeman.

      I cannot tell you how much I despise being part of this corrupt cesspit of a UK. The sooner we get out of this sh*thole the better.

    279. Proud Cybernat says:

      David Davis on R2 (J. Vine show) saying that WA vote could indeed be deferred to as late as 28th March 2019.

      And my own view – it will then probably be filibustered on the final day so that it falls and we end up with hard Brexit, a no deal by default.

    280. call me dave says:

      @Meg merrilees

      Ach well! Not surprised really but I must keep up. 🙂

      I said a long time ago when elected that the new labour superman Corbynite was Kraptonite.

      He’ll dither until it’s too late to make a difference.

      Off to Sky news on the PC see what’s up. 🙂

    281. Macart says:

      @ronnie anderson

      TBF Ron, it was still fairly dark outside this morn. 🙂

    282. gus1940 says:

      Am I the only person who having watched the current ‘Warship’ series on HMS Duncant see it as a screamingly blatant government propaganda tool.

      The ludicrous hyping up of Russia as the dastardly enemy about to attack the Maybot’s precious union is a classic example of a government in deep trouble conjuring up an enemy in the hope that it will unite the nation behind them.

      Duck And Cover.

    283. ronnie anderson says:

    284. Breeks says:

      The problem with putting our faith in Jeremy Corbyn is that he too is a Brexiteer, who will only back a vote of no confidence if there is political capital in doing so, and given that a General Election might conceivably put him in Government and having to sanitise the omnidisaster of Brexit, it is open to debate where any political capital for Labour currently lies.

      Instead of a vote of No Confidence in May, how about we pursue a vote of No confidence in Westminster and start laying out a “Scottish Backstop” just as intransigent as Northern Ireland’s whereby Westminster cannot drag Scotland out of Europe without the literal subjugation of Scotland’s Remain vote, and an act of subjugation which automatically terminates the Union? I know, I know, better late than never…. but we are where we are.

      Or these days is it just Europe which respects Constitutional principles these days?

    285. Kangaroo and manandboy

      I fear that you are both right.

      There is no need for a subsequent vote if there is nothing to vote on. So Parliament can only watch as the iceberg gets closer.

      Reading a tweet from Angus Mc Neill -he thinks that Labour don’t want to challenge the government before march 29th. They don’t want to be holding the baby when the bath water runs out.

    286. Dave McEwan Hill says:


      It should be understood that William 11 (or William 111 in Scotland- Good King Billy) was hugely instrumental in the destruction of the Darien Scheme (along with the Spanish) although taking bibles and wooly hats out to central America doesn’t sound particularly clever. (One wonders if Willian Paterson,the Scot who founded the Bank of England and who was a unionist anglophile had motives in designing the Darien scheme as he did).
      William was also largely responsible for the trade restrictions and trade embargo threatened to Scotland if it didn’t join the union.

      A section of the Scottish ruling classes were heavily hit by the collapse of Darien but not the overall Scottish trading and the economy, particularly the burghs which were commercially growing very quickly – paricularly their trade with Europe. Sound topical?
      The English national economy was in huge national debt and Scotland had no national debt. At the union Scotland took on a share of Englands debt. Sound familiar?

    287. galamcennalath says:

      ” Nicola Sturgeon’s clarity on Brexit reminds us what a leader looks like

      May’s current disaster should be Corbyn’s chance, but instead it is the SNP leader who is displaying purpose, energy and guts “

      Aye, Scotland is lucky to have Nicola.

    288. yesindyref2 says:

      Tricky one. Like the other forces the RN has recruitment problems, so a series like Warship could help that. And by its nature “the most advanced warship in the world”, that’s going to be British propagandist, same as is having a “genuine” enemy to get people’s fighting spirits up. Plus having a female skipper to encourage female recruitement. From that point of view therefore, it’s quite normal!

    289. wull2 says:

      You know up to cheer me up with (The Supreme Court decision on Thursday is important. Suspect it will get ‘postponed’) from a previous post.
      If they do, I think I will start my New Year Drink now. I will sober up to find out who is left with the Brexshit parcel when the clock stops.

    290. geeo says:


      You said this..

      “A plain question for our enigmatic Nicola Sturgeon… If not revocation of Article 50 under a European Court of Justice affirmation of Sovereign entitlement, then what”?

      I am pretty much on the same page as you regarding your posts, i just take the view that Scotsgov has the plan waiting to be deployed and are trying to keep it under the unionist radar until it is deployed.

      As to the quote from your post above…

      Perhaps that, or something along those lines, is the last stand, to be deployed when all else fails?

      It may well have been already discussed with the EU already, or perhaps the EU have told us that they cannot discuss it until the deal, and therefore legal intent to remove Scotland, subjugating our Sovereign will, has been confirmed.

      We are not party to such planning, and frankly, that, if happening, should certainly not be public knowledge as that would give an advantage to our enemies.

      The language being used and a stiffening resolve by our politicians at WM recently, suggest there is indeed a plan of action they seem confident of.

      If not, then more fool them, but i would gently suggest there is a plan, considering the carefully crafted legal recourse the Scotsgov have produced by some brilliant politiking, which has created legal gateways to defend our People’s Sovereignty and Scots Law.

      The Treaty is under genuine threat, not just by what WE do, but, by what WM do as well.

      That never happened by accident.

    291. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyways, Panelbase data tables out, and thanks to a link posted under SGP’s article.

      As always for me these days, the don’t knows (DK) are interesting.

      “Q6. How would you vote in response to the question: Should Scotland be an independent country?”
      Yes 45% No 51% DK 4%.
      Add all the DK to Yes and you only get 49%.


      “Q15. Which do you believe would be better for Scotland? ”
      Scottish independence 46%, A no deal Brexit 32%, DK 22%.
      Add the DK to Indy and you get a massive 68%.

      Clearly the two questions and their answers are inconsistent, and I think there’s an automatic response still to “Indy YES or NO”, but if people have to think about it, it’s very different.

      Without an actual Indy campaign or Indy Ref, people don’t have to think about it.

    292. yesindyref2 says:

      The likes of Curtice by the way, really don’t like analysing the don’t knows, which is why he’s not a proper psephologist at all.

    293. Where`s Ian Blackford ?

    294. yesindyref2 says:

      It goes like this:

      “I don’t want Independence”
      “I don’t want a no-deal Brexit”.

      You have to choose.

      “Oh shit, I’ll go for Indy / I don’t know”.

      For them it’s a choice between the deep blue sea and the devil. So let’s give them a lifejacket and a whistle. Now JUMP you dick 🙂

      The boy stood on the burning deck when all around had fled.

      Why someone doesn’t ask Curtice why he hasn’t commented that 4% don’t knows suddenly leap up to 22%, I don’t know. Well I do of course, frankly.

    295. Artyhetty says:

      Re; Man and Boy@9.13am

      Coded messages on BBC re Corrrbbbyyyynnn?

      BBC don’t bother doing that with the SNP, they just either ignore and exclude them, blatantly insult them, shout over them, or ridicule them. Thereby taking the absolute rip out of the people of Scotland.

      I watched the Joanna Cherry interview yesterday, the interviewer was desperate for her to crumble. She is excellent, she knows her stuff and takes no prisoners. No wonder BBC blocked her speaking on their propaganda radio this morning.

      I was appalled to hear that one SNP MP, I think Alison Thewliss, was basically told to go home by a Tory at WM yesterday. It seems workplace bullying is rife in the Britnat parliament.

      Hard to believe that support for independence is not at 70% right now in Scotland. It should be!

      PS some great comments. Especially Dr.Jim and the bit about Noah’s magic zoo boat at 10.02am! 🙂

    296. hackalumpoff says:

      She couldn’t fight her way out of a paper bag, so what chance does she have with the mighty Mercedes.

      The comments are better than the video.

    297. Breeks says:

      From Jean Claude Juncker…

      “ …There is no room for renegotiation, but further clarifications are possible”.

      I think that further clarification means getting a loud hailer and a Marshall Amp before driving a van up and down the street belting out “THERE… IS….NO….ROOM…FOR….RENEGOTIATION”.

      Or thinking laterally, maybe the “further clarification” is to invite Theresa to Brussels then shut the door in her face and pretend to be out, even though she can see you moving the curtains.

      There you go Theresa. Saved you all that expense and bother of going all around Europe. Take the day off and play crazy golf down the park if you like, or stay in and wait by the phone, and brace yourself for all the Hitler in his bunker Downfall memes that are currently in post production…

    298. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      no deal Brexit 32%

      Like all countries, Scotland has its fair share of thick people!

      I keep seeing folks claim a percentage of ‘no deal’ supporters totally misinterpret what it means! The think it means no Brexit / status quo / Remain.

      I believe there may be truth to this and it should perhaps be factored in to claimed ‘no deal’ support.

    299. geeo says:


      Imagine for a moment that Scotsgov decide, after WM gov flat refuse a S.30 order and TELL the Scots people they ARE leaving the EU, and tough titty.

      All this talk of “instructing the Scotsgov” they want independence become soundbites unless there is a process we can use to find out the will of the people re: yes or no to indy.
      I get the requirement of “instruction” argument, but there is never an answer to what happens if WM just say gtf Scotland, no S.30, no indyref, nae nothin’ ?

      I have previously said that the process available, is a legal route.

      However, that process needs to be a quick one, as WM will absolutely try to crush Scotland, once free from EU protections.

      So i believe that a PROTECTIVE political dissolution motion put to Holyrood, clearly caveated with holding a Plebiscite (free of WM influence, since there is no S.30) to affirm the Protective Political motion.

      I believe this satisfies the Sovereign will issue (affirmation plebiscite) and is easily justified as a response to complete intransigence by WM.

      Now, imagine what the response would be if the question (and the question would be up to Holyrood only) was along the lines as you highlighted in that poll….

      Q. Do you, the Sovereign people of Scotland, wish to…

      1. Affirm the political protective dissolution motion, and remain independent ?

      2. Remain IN union with WM and accept brexit for Scotland ?

      Now, i know some have dismissed such a plan, but i have yet to see an explanation of an alternative method of finding out via plebiscite what Scots feel about indy, should WM just absolutely refuse to entertain Scotsgov’s approaches for a S.30 and insist we are dragged out the EU.

    300. yesindyref2 says:

      I could just see Curtice on the TV for some future poll “YES hasn’t made any advance since the last poll, at 53% NO to 47% YES”.

      “Yes John, if you exclude the don’t knows, but the actual poll results were 17% NO to 16% YES – what about the other 67% who said don’t know, eh?”

      He’s gone well downhill since his Sirship, got to agree with other posters. The guy is now a dribbler.

    301. Dr Jim says:

      If you’d asked a Unionist 6 years ago if they hated the EU they would’nt have been able to answer because the Daily Mail and the right wing hadn’t told them what to think about that yet

      I do not know a single soul on this earth who even gave the EU a thought because it was an accepted way of life and freedom for everybody and when you have freedom you don’t think about it, now our freedom is being removed by people who never thought about it till they were told it was a bad freedom

      And that’s always been the problem with the extremists on the right wing they don’t think they just react more loudly and more violently and are easily manipulated to being told to perform

      The press and media and right wing politicians are to blame for this by using peoples lack of ability to think for themselves

      It’s how they train soldiers, remove the responsibilty to think then fill up the space with what you want to put in there and you’ve got yourself an army and all they want to do is win, eradicate everything in front of them, job done, right or wrong

      It usually works too, except this time the moderates are fighting back and that’s good but bad as well because unless sanity is restored by co-operation of the people who did this none of it will end well

    302. Macart says:

      Somehow I can’t see Mr Corbyn being particularly moved, but another i dotted and another t crossed.

    303. Dr Jim says:

      *Sir* Prof Curtice is to polls what *Sir* Ian Wood is to oil

    304. yesindyref2 says:

      I think a lot of people are just switching off with the Brexit thing, and yes, don’t really understand it. Helped by the BBC.

      In normal terms I’m against dissolution without a Ref, but have said before that if that’s the only way of getting a Ref, then it should be done effectively for the sole purrpose of holding a Ref, confimatory as you say, or just a straight YES / NO as before.

      It could be stronger of course:

      “Should Scotland remain an Independent country?” YES / NO.

      Or should it go batshit crazy and rejoin a sinking Union of precious self-interested Tory dingbat yahoos?

    305. It may have been me, but it was certainly one of our number, who coined the oxymoron ‘sore winners’, to describe the Brit Nat Triumphalists post September 18th 2014.
      You mat recall that Cameron, outside Number 10 at 07.00 on the morning of 19th September 2014announced EVEL, English Votes For English Laws.
      The Sweaties were back in their box, Auld Lizzie purred, and the True Blue Loyal invaded George Square in belligerent celebration that Scotland had voted by 55-45 to remain a militarily occupied colony of its larger neighbour to the South.
      The Smith Commission, front loaded with a Better Together punitive majority met, lied, curtailed, and denied, even a vestige of Home Rule.
      In 2015, we threw out 41 New Labour Chancers, and returned 56 SNP MPs out of 59 seats available.
      In hindsight we should have declared Independence on the back of this overwhelming Pro Self Determination result.
      We didn’t.

      We are now on the verge of being dragged out of the EU despite a 62-48 result to Remain.
      We cannot buckle under again.
      May is leading an Administration which makes a mockery of Democracy.
      Corbyn is a tired Old Man (my age, so to heck with any ‘age-ist’ retorts) who has never held any political office until he rose without trace as a product of the Left backlash against Blair Brown and Miliband.
      He will never sit in number 10 as PM.
      Middle England will never vote for a tired old Commie.
      Despite the incredible fuck up the Blue Tories have made of the UK since 2010, they still head the polls, whereas their Coalition Partners, the Lib Dem Yellow Tories were punished severely in 2015, reduced to 8 MPs and falling.
      Clegg resigned, Cameron has ‘effed off’, and the three UK Parties are headed by ancients, May, Cable, and Corbyn.
      Nobody wants to be in the Hot Seat come March 29th 2019.
      We are in the very real predicament that Time will conquer all, and Spring 2019 will be upon us and the EU bids us ‘adieu’ and closes the Chunnel.
      They are already preparing for No Deal Brexit, while the UK Raa Booh Sucks its head off in the Palace of Westminster.
      Nicola Sturgeon and the Pro Independence Movement have played the Long Game, patiently waiting, offering options, turning the other cheek, waiting, waiting.
      We have reached the Tipping Point. May will be back by Friday 14th (phew) with no new concessions.
      She’ll try to get through Christmas as PM, just because she can.
      Then all hell will break loose as the TV adverts are cluttered with European Holidays for 2019, which UK citizens will not be able to book with any certainty because Freedom of Movement stops in April next year.
      Now is the time, dear Readers, now, is the last chance to free ourselves from England’s yoke.
      Let’s hope that the SNP, Greens, and MP’s MSPs of other parties who must surely now being Independence as the only option, are brave enough to grasp the thistle.
      NMS accuses TM of ‘cowardice’.
      Do not allow the enemies of Scotland, like Mundell, Tomkins, Leonard, Rennie, and Murray the reason to level the same accusation at NS and the Scottish Movement.

    306. geeo says:


      Slight correction…

      Curtiss has ALWAYS been a ‘dribbler’.

    307. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s all part of due process.

    308. Breeks says:

      geeo says:
      11 December, 2018 at 1:15pm

      …All this talk of “instructing the Scotsgov” they want independence become soundbites unless there is a process we can use to find out the will of the people re: yes or no to indy.

      Constructively disagree with you Geeo. It’s high time we had a Scottish Backstop that dragging Scotland out the EU would be an unconstitutional act of colonial subjugation which would immediately and irremediably terminate the Treaty of Union. Then we can sit back, relax, while giving the UK enough rope to hang itself.

      “We didn’t end the Union. They did”.

    309. geeo says:


      “Should Scotland remain an Independent country?” YES / NO.

      Or should it go batshit crazy and rejoin a sinking Union of precious self-interested Tory dingbat yahoos?

      I bow to your alternative option 2….hehe!!

    310. yesindyref2 says:

      @Jack Collatin: “In hindsight we should have declared Independence on the back of this overwhelming Pro Self Determination result.

      Couldn’t do that Jack, the SNP fought the 2015 GE on pushing Smith through – stronger devolution – not Independence. They therefore had no democratic mandate for declaring Indy.

    311. Macart says:



    312. Dr Jim says:

      Where’s the legacy?

      Corbyn has always enjoyed being a nuisance and probably never expected himself to be in this position and doesn’t know what to with it anyway except just be a nuisance

      Much easier to go down in history as *coulda woulda shoulda been the best Prime Minister we never had* best seller in that title

      No book sales in demented old failed worst Prime Minister ever

    313. geeo says:


      Dragging Scotland out the EU already IS exactly what you say it is, i completely agree with it ending the Treaty of Union.

      I just think a Holyrood Protective political dissolution motion caveated with holding an affirmation plebiscite is cleaner and quicker than a Scottish backstop, which still requires a plebiscite to be held anyway.

      But hey, both ways still work for me. Happy for your route if thats what happens.

    314. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m in fine fighting fettle today, taking a rest from the usual moderate empathic ambassadorial self 🙂

    315. geeo says:

      Who are you, and what have you done with yesindyref2 ???

    316. Luigi says:

      Scottish Backstop

      Don’t know where that came from?

      (but I really like the sound of it). 🙂

    317. Dr Jim says:

      The BBC state broadcaster is banging on about Scotlands obesity problem again quoting the 5% figure but here’s what they don’t tell you

      England 8% and rising
      Wales 11% and rising

      The figure of 5% in Scotland has not moved up or down for 4 years

    318. ronnie anderson says:

      Corbyn’s emergency debate serves no purpose , just more and more & waffle from the mother of all fuckup parliaments .

    319. Shinty says:

      Eu officials knew May was ‘pulling’ the vote 24hrs before she informed her own cabinet.

    320. call me dave says:

      Jings! Sky news.

      The DUP have no other strategy apart from sending Theresa back to Brussels with a pretendy big stick… shaped like a begging bowl.

      Bad day for the UK they say. Get a better deal.. infinitum.

      But…but…NI voted to remain. Funny old DUP world.

      Corbyn still wavering..the time is not yet for a ‘no confidence’ motion.

    321. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Bet they made a killing on the currency markets betting against the GBP (£) then @Shinty says at 2:13 pm

      “Eu officials knew May was ‘pulling’ the vote 24hrs before she informed her own cabinet.”

      Wonder if the financial investment company her husband works for made any unusual ForEx transactions in the 24hrs leadioup to the vote getting pulled?

      If it did it smacks of insider trading.

      Still we are all in this Brexit thing together aren’t we?

      The Establishment 1% and the ‘Disaster Capitalists” will do alright out of the Great British Fire Sale, of that I have no doubt.

    322. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      If the UK had any real investigative journalists worthy of the name they’d look at the portfolios of P May’s employers and compare against things like pulling last nights vote, the snap GE etc.

    323. Nana says:


      I have absolutely no idea where the morning went to…..Hic

      Only kidding 🙂

      Ah the old kinder, gentler politics of labour

    324. Nana says:

      @One_Scot 12.14

      Was it the interview with Mark Curtis on RT?

      See link at 7.13am.

    325. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Luigi @ 13:43,


      It’s all about framing, and that gets the message through in just a pair of words.

    326. manandboy says:


      “Conspiracy theories are all the rage now. It is unfashionable to question someone’s views – the new method is to question their motives.

      Remainers have gotten used to this after two and a half years. They’ve been branded ("Tractor" - Ed)s, fifth columnists and enemies of the people. But this morning something more disturbing happened. The leader of the House started using it against the Speaker. This injects the fevered mania of culture war conspiracy theory right into the heart of the Britain’s constitutional arrangements.”

    327. manandboy says:

      “The storm clouds of the next global financial crisis are gathering despite the world financial system being unprepared for the next downturn, the deputy head of the International Monetary Fund has warned.

      David Lipton, the first deputy managing director of the IMF, said that “crisis prevention is incomplete” more than a decade on from the last meltdown in the global banking system.”

      A no deal Brexit combined with a global financial crisis, means a level of distress in the UK that no one here is in any way prepared for.
      Falling off the Brexit cliff meets falling into a massive tidal wave.

      Could be we are all in for a very rude awakening.

    328. manandboy says:

      Jon Henley Europe editor:

      “Welcome to the Guardian’s weekly Brexit briefing, essential reading now more than ever as the wheels come off the bus.”

      Sounds like, either we, or Theresa May, is going nowhere.

    329. Giving Goose says:

      Regarding Corbyn and his dithering about a “No confidence” motion, I think he must be looking over his shoulder at how English public opinion would react to that.

      Can you imagine the outrage that would leap out from the Daily Mail and other right wing newspapers around the SNP involvement.

      Corbyn would look like his dog was being wagged by the SNP tail. This would not play well.

      He is going to be nervous whichever way you look at this.

      Corbyn is portrayed as a willing puppet of those dastardly Scots.

      Corbyn is a ditherer.

      Corbyn has betrayed Brexit/democracy/England/the will of the people – please select.

      It’s the Scottish dimension that carries the most risk for Corbyn.

      He will play to the English nationalist gallery. He hasn’t the courage to face them down and at heart he is an English Nationalist pretending to be something else.

    330. Breeks says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      11 December, 2018 at 1:24 pm

      ” …..In normal terms I’m against dissolution without a Ref, but have said before that if that’s the only way of getting a Ref, then it should be done effectively for the sole purrpose of holding a Ref, confimatory as you say, or just a straight YES / NO as before.”

      I’m more flexible about a referendum for 3 reasons:

      1) There isn’t time.

      2) Scotland should properly see Brexit as a National Emergency, an further claim with absolute legitimacy that “normal” rules don’t apply. Make our Nation’s interests safe from emergency first, then address the technical nicety of democracy later, with a ratification plebiscite held once the emergency has passed.

      3) A referendum vote might be practicable, but in the current propagandafest which attempts to pass itself off as credible news media, there is no prospect of holding the objective, dispassionate and informed debate that is necessary to support an informed choice in any referendum we do have. In fact, even the holding of such a referendum tainted by those constraints and indoctrinations serves only to bolster the falacy of the democracy.

      For these reasons, I would set aside democratic “ideals”, because they are seriously compromised, and instead I would indeed follow the path of Constitutional expediency in a heartbeat.

    331. Where’s Wally? Oh you mean Mundell? He wasn’t available for comment.

    332. Abulhaq says:

      Hope the SNP has a clear and articulate strategy for the coming weeks/months and is not simply engaging in the customary knockabout point scoring. ‘They’ need to made to feel the fear.
      Bet la Davidson is biting her tongue. Being on maternity leave during these momentous times and not able to fight for Scotland, after her swaggering fashion.

    333. Juteman says:

      If Scotland signed the Acts of Union as an equal partner, what is stopping us saying we will stay in the EU?
      Surely our parliament must have the same power as the other English parliament in Westminster?

    334. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Chris Cairns on twitter likens the Maybot to Mr Bean. At least, in the Snickers advert, Mr Bean eats his snickers and turns into a Samurai warrior.

      If only it was that easy with a Tory.

    335. North chiel says:

      On reflection , is it possible that May has postponed the vote as she “ doesn’t wish to spoil Xmas for herself , cabinet and her Westminster establishment cronies. Has she in fact “ traipsed off” to the European capitals for “ canapés & a farewell drink” with her soon to be “ former counterparts “.Absolutely nothing would surprise me indeed with this bunch of arrogant self centred “ little Englanders”. Let’s all forget about Brexit chaps after all it is the hols. We can all have “ a jolly good time” and carry on regardless after our usual festive break !! Happy hockey sticks & jolly good show”!! Who cares about the plebs ?

    336. geeo says:

      @socrates mcsporran.

      When treeza bites her snickers, she turns into a peanut.

    337. galamcennalath says:

      It’s been said by others – Corbyn doesn’t want an election with Brexit looming. He would want to gain power if it were cancelled or delayed. But the last thing he would want is to take over in the immediate aftermath of a no deal crash out.

      Tories caused this, and they need to take the stick for it. Someone will!

      As long as Brexit is scheduled to take place in 3 months, Labour would be daft to want to be left dealing with the disaster.

      As things stand all Corbyn is proposing is an alternative magic unicorn with cherry picked cake. Labour have no serious alternative proposals. They aren’t behaving like a party with a plan.

      I suspect the plan is to let Brexit seriously damage the Tories first.

      One thing both Lab and Tories have …. they put party before people!

    338. starlaw says:

      Bet Davidson is glad that she is sitting this bourach out, her timing was perfect.

    339. Socrates MacSporran says:


      Unfortunately, the problem we Scots have is, when the independent Scottish Parliament suspended itself in 1707, it handed its powers to the UK Parliament.

      The very-limited powers we were handed back in 1997 were handed back by that same UK Parliament. Their belief is: “power devolved is power retained,” and we would struggle to overturn that belief, reinforced as it is by the fact, between 1707 and 1997, the Scots MPs at Westminster simply rolled over time and again and allowed the convention and belief to grow that England owned us.

      Now we have SNP MPs in sufficient numbers to fight back – well, Westminster doesn’t like it, and will fight all the harder and dirtier to retain our powers.

      But, the sovereign will of the Scottish People, as demonstrated when they believed the lies of Better Together and voted “No” in 2014, and reinforced when they voted “Remain” in 2016, further reinforced by repeated votes in Holyrood, and by that being the position of the majority of Scottish MPs at Westminster, is that Scotland wishes to remain within the EU.

      Westminster recently backed the Scottish Claim of Right, that the people of Scotland are sovereign.

      Given all these confirmations, surely Scotland, as one of the only two parties to have signed the Treaty/Act of Union, now has enough evidence to convince the international community – EU, UN, whatever, that the Act of Union has been voided and an independent Scotland can remain within the EU.

      I think, given the way the UK Government has, and continues to mess the EU about – we would be home and hosed if we pushed this matter.

      Come on Nicola – The Tories are not going to change now – Let’s Go For It.

    340. yesindyref2 @1.33 pm.
      I know that, but if only they had grasped the thistle.
      Why should we be squeaky clean while the Red Blue and Yellow Tories lie, break promises and kill 10’s thousands of UK citizens through state engineered poverty to reward their rich backers and future employers?
      It’s time to get dirty and start biting ears off, and ripping out lungs, politically of course.

      May has effectively reduced the time between now and crashing out of Europe by five weeks, if the vote has been ‘deferred until 21st Jan ’19.
      There has never been such a dysfunctional totalitarian Government in my lifetime, and that includes Thatcher and Blair, which is saying something.No more Mr and Mrs Nice Guy,we go for the jugular.
      Has Mundell resigned yet?

    341. geeo says:

      Sky talking about those pushing Corbyn for a VONC, mentioned everyone except the only party DIRECTLY challenging him to do it.

    342. schrodingers cat says:

      mhairi black on her feet in hoc wearing a wee blue yes badge 🙂

    343. Juteman says:

      I enjoyed your reply.
      You started off saying NO, but by the end of your post you agreed with me. 🙂

    344. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 4.15
      And she didnay miss them and hit the wa.
      Whit a wummin…

    345. Thepnr says:


      That’s some news and if true then she has to go or the Tories won’t be able to get rid of her for another year.

      It will throw the Brexit debacle into even greater turmoil if she does lose though and they have a leadership election.

      What a shambles this all is, just beyond belief.

    346. Dan Huil says:

      Corbyn will lose any immediate GE because, even after all the evidence proving the corrupt, deceitful and incompetent nature of this Westminster britnat government, the people of England will still vote tory.

      Once again the clear evidence of the pointlessness of voting Labour in Scotland is there for all to see.

    347. Nana says:


      I’m seeing several reports saying the same re the letters and someone reporting May is going to visit Varadkar tomorrow and Merkel has said no more deals.

    348. schrodingers cat says:

      Martin Docherty-Hughes, belter son,

    349. manandboy says:

      And still, all the while, 1,500,000 people living in Scotland continue blindly believing that Westminster is on their side.

      They are like a man who stands by his ‘best friend’, after he is found guilty of raping his own wife & daughter.

    350. schrodingers cat says:

      Martin Docherty-Hughes snp mp for west dunbartonshire

    351. Still Positive says:

      Schrodinger’s Cat @ 4.29

      Martin is my MP. Known him since 1992 when he was elected to the former Clydebank District Council at the same time as my late husband.

      He is a good man.

    352. jfngw says:

      Labour will oppose the no confidence vote as they believe it will fail because there is not more than 50% support. Strangely they believe there is 66% support for a general election, that’s Labour logistics, using the Abbotcus.

      Dennis Skinner insulting SNP MP’s, I think that is just his job, I’ve never seen him do anything except spout red faced nonsense. He is just Jeremy Corbyn but without Corbyn’s charisma.

    353. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Why doesn’t the SNP group of MPs, under Ian Blackford try something sectacular.

      Find a reason, perhaps at the next Scottish Questions in the HoC to immediately convene a meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee to discuss Brexit and its consequences for Scotland, then pass a motion calling for the termination of the Act/Treaty of Union, on the grounds that the Conservative Government had broken it by rfusing the sovereign will of the Scottish people – as per the EU referendum – to remain within the EU.

      Of course, the inbuilt English majority would go ape shit, but, it would be on the official HoC record.

      I wonder what would happen next.

    354. donald says:

      Safe to say we’ll be hearing very little from Labour supporters ever again about SNP supposedly ushering in Thatcher if Labour decide to keep the Tories in power today, right now, right this moment by not joining up with the SNP on a vote of no confidence in May.

    355. Bobp says:

      Manandboy 4.29 pm. Too wee, too poor?. yup either definitely too stupid or bigoted. These unionist f*****s deserve all the austerity coming their way .every ignominy,every job loss, every benefit cut, inflicted on them by their london better together tory masters. If i could i would deny these people access to a foodbank. And i bet many of them will be using one.

    356. Luigi says:

      JC better get the finger out and go for a VONC pronto. If he continues to dither over the next 24 hours, events may end up running away from him. Don’t try to respond to events in this chaotic season, Jeremy – you will never keep up. Try instead to make something happen.

      The time is now for real leaders (of all parties) to step up to the challenge.

    357. cirsium says:

      @juteman, 3.38pm

      If Scotland signed the Acts of Union as an equal partner, what is stopping us saying we will stay in the EU?

      Scotland needs to have its own central bank to be eligible to apply. We need to gain independence first.

      Mrs May looks as if she is running the clock out either to facilitate a hard Brexit (she is being advised by staff from the Legatum Institute which was set up by people who made money looting Russia in the 1990s) or to pull back from Brexit altogether. In the very near future, we need to stop playing the Westminster game and step away from the trap.

      I saw this on twitter “Smart enough, big enough, rich enough – f***kin had enough”. Sums it up for me.

    358. Macart says:


      I don’t believe Mr Corbyn will. Labour isn’t ready for government and he isn’t ready to expose his party’s Brexit differences and policy deficiencies. Nor would he be willing to fall back on a second people’s vote on the issue for obvious reasons.

      No, I reckon his first preference is to let the Tories carry the can and then supposedly swan in heroically with a resigned look on his face.

      Never say never right enough, but that is certainly how it looks.

    359. Nana says:

      30mins ago
      Corbyn refuses calls to trigger instant Brexit no confidence vote in Theresa May

      Footage of May leaving her meeting with Merkel

    360. John Major is calling for Article 50 to be revoked as the only possible path now.

    361. Hamish100 says:

      Labour’s tactic is based on impotance. We canny dae it, so we canny?

    362. Hamish100 says:

      Bbc tactics are to ignore the snp or to mention any opposition as UK

    363. One_Scot says:

      Yeah Nana it was him, thanks for that.

      I think his work should be more widely aired. Clearly the UK media won’t give him a platform. Kudos to RT for giving him the opportunity to be heard,

      Mark Curtis says
      “My view, looking at declassified files and evidence of UK foreign policy going back 70 years, is that Britain is a serial violator of human rights, a systematic supporter of repressive regimes. This has largely been kept from the British public by the media.”

      This is an expanding collection of declassified government documents on UK foreign policy

    364. wull2 says:

      Labour, now is not the time, I am sure that I have heard that before from the other side, or is it the same side, only just South of he Border.

    365. Proud Cybernat says:


      Yer trolling’s no’ working. Chase yerself.

    366. Corbyn refusing to lodge a vote of no confidence BUT he’s accusing the SNP of ‘game-playing’

      What about the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and Greens who are also asking the same thing – are they ‘game-playing’?
      Is Vince Cable a ‘game player’
      Is caroline Lucas?

      Corbyn – stop putting party before country, stop being a wimp and act like the leader you are supposed to be. You are not fit to work in tandem with Nicola Sturgeon and if you had one iota of her courage, her honesty, her political ability or her gravitas you would not be in the supine position you now find yourself in.

      What an arse!

    367. neil bruce says:

      Just watched the clip posted by Hackalumpoff at 4.34.

      Right at the very end, while saying that his constituency
      will vote snp and to stay in Europe, he says “will vote,
      time come May, for my nation to become an independent sov”

      Which is where it cuts off, needless to say.

      Am I misreading that? Or has he just revealed the timing
      of the next indy ref.

    368. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Nana @ 17:00,

      So Corbyn sidekick McDonnell now claims the SNP is “dodging” a UKGE because “it would lose seats to Labour”.

      It’s too laughable for words. He clearly learnt nothing useful from his recent brief expedition to the northern colony.

      In the alternative universe that is the WM bubble, it seems that the Tories are not the only ones who are lost in fantasies spun out of their own wishful thinking.

    369. Robert J Sutherland

      but Labour doesn’t want to be in charge come March 2019 as they’ll get the blame for the Brexit mess. Corbyn is sitting back waiting for it all to fall into his lap.

      Well – it’s not going to this time!

    370. call me dave says:

      Double poisoned chalice for Big Labour to avoid, one marked Brexit and other marked GE, but trying to pin the blame on the Scottish Party using weasel words.

      FGS! 🙂 Wha’s like them eh?

    371. Socrates MacSporran says:

      neil bruce

      Having watched the clip, I think Mr Hughes-Docherty is going on the assumption, it will take six months to arrange Indyref2, once Nicola fires the gun.

      That would mean, at the earliest, the vote would take place in May. That’s my reasoning any way.

      I still think it could be done sooner – if Nicola got her finger out and said Go. Timing would now be very tight and difficult, but, hopefully we could still have a verdict by 29 March, 2019.

    372. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Meg merrilees @ 17:29,

      It would almost be worthwhile waiting for the next UKGE just to watch Corby & Co crawling cap-in-hand to the SNP to help get them into power. (Assuming they could even get close enough in their own right, which doesn’t look that likely, whatever happens.)


      But I dearly hope we’ll be well gone before then.

    373. Thepnr says:

      FWIW Here’s what I believe the possibilities are of where we will end up by 29th March in order from least likely to most likely.

      1. Straightforward vote is support of revoking Article 50.

      I make the least likely as it would only be used in the final days before exit if we were leaving with No Deal. There probably would be enough moderate Tory MP’s willing to support an Opposition says as to stop No deal. 5% Chance.

      2. General Election and an extension to Article 50.

      As we’ve seen and read the last day or two Corbyn is in no rush to call a vote of No Confidence in the government and for good reason at least this side of any meaningful vote as he wouldn’t win it. As well as that of course his best chance of winning a General Election will be after 29th March when the government will have collapsed if Mays deal has failed (which it will) and we are only left with No deal or a 2nd EU referendum. 5% Chance.

      3. May’s deal.

      This has no chance in normal circumstances but ironically it does have a slight chance if there is a 2nd EU referendum and May’s deal is one of the options in either of a two option or even three option referendum. 10% Chance

      4. No deal Brexit.

      The default option of course if May fails(as she will) to get her deal through. I do not think there is any chance that we will go straight into a No deal exit on 29th March without a 2nd EU referendum being given a chance first. My reasoning is simple, we will 100% see panic buying and empty supermarket shelves in the weeks running up to what looks increasingly like No deal becoming a reality. I think this will be a pretty good reality check for enough Tory MP moderates to get together with the opposition and force through a motion calling for the “peoples vote”. The people too faced with empty shelves will be making their views known too during this time. I give this option a 35% because it is still very much in the game in a 2nd referendum even if stopped before 29th March.

      5. A motion in support of a “Peoples Vote” winning the vote.

      I make this the most likely outcome for all of the reasons above. It has other features that will make it attractive to many MP’s, it takes the decision to “cancel Brexit” away from MP’s if say they revoked Article 50. It could eventually prove to be very attractive to Labour even though they might fear a backlash from Labour supporters who voted leave it is the Tories who would face the bigger backlash for this motion to win it can only do so with Tory support. Tories are the most rapid Leavers and they punish their party hard. The other good news for Labour is that after the “peoples vote” has taken place then no matter if remain wins or no deal wins the government will fall. Corbyn will get his General Election and it will be his best chance of winning one plus he no longer has concern himself with Brexit. That will be over. 45% Chance.

    374. Re Martin Docherty snippet:

      Is he not just using a ‘quaint’ poetic figure of speech along the lines of ‘may the time come’ but says ‘time come may’.

      Suppose it depends on whether may has a capital ‘M’ or not.

    375. Colin Alexander says:

      The SNP backing England’s People’s Vote. That’s nice of them.

      If there’s a GE who I vote for will be mainly based on indy.

      If a vote for the SNP is a vote for indy, they’ll definitely get my vote.

      If a vote for the SNP is a vote to send SNP MPs to back England’s People’s Vote or Labour, then I won’t be voting SNP. England can vote for them.

    376. call me dave says:

      Stu asking about the online deleted page 19 on the Daily Record.

      Rushed next door to get it and it seems its the backpacker murder case.
      They have shown a picture of the accused and his name.

      That’s probably it. It was mentioned in the news earlier that the New Zealander Legal system didn’t like that from the media in the UK.

    377. ScottieDog says:

      @meg merrilees
      My wife and I were sitting giving it WTF regarding mr Corbyn and labour. Leadership is exactly what’s needed now but your comment is correct. He doesn’t want to take over the ship as it approached the rocks. He wants come in after the ship has foundered. Thing is, we all know he was complicit in steering it to oblivion. He’s no leader that’s for sure.

      Labour are simply not an opposition and for me have absolutely no place in government. They are shambolic and are willingly letting the tories wreck society. I used to admire John McDonnell and the way he stood up to the Tony Blair neoliberal band wagon, now I just think he’s a devious lying prick.

      Agree or disagree with NS, but at least she has put forward an alternative and stuck to it.

    378. Capella says:

      Just heard Euan Davies interview Kirsty Blackman on R4 PM, quite politely. Is this a first?

      Kirsty was making the obvious point that in the People’s Vote it is valid to include a Remain option as people were misled the last time.

      Mind you, he has just said that Theresa May is “hopping around” Europe today. Must be exhausting.

    379. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 17:41,

      I reckon that May has a better chance of getting her deal through the HoC than you posit, and for the very reasons you give in your scenario 4.

      She will keep stalling right to the last minute, no longer in the belief that the EU will fold at the 11th hour, but in the hope that enough MPs of all colours will.

      I can’t see her ever agreeing to an EURef2. Except maybe as a desperate last-chance ploy to scupper an imminent IR2.

    380. cearc says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker, 2.24

      Spot on.

      I think it is quite unacceptable that he should be working in hedge funds whilst his wife is PM. but as with Farage possibly ‘shorting the pound’ on the vote night it is almost impossible to prove as there won’t be a paper trail.

      I somehow doubt that the FCA are bothering to keep tabs on any strings of remarkable coincidences.

    381. Sarah says:

      @meg merrilees at 5.42

      I think you are right re Martin Docherty-Hughes figure of speech. “Come what may” is perhaps what he meant to say.

    382. Bobp says:

      Proud cybernat 5.18pm. I’ll say what i think. Go f**k yersel.

    383. frogesque says:

      Portents are important, or maybe not.

      Comet 46P Wirtanen makes its closest approach to Earth on December 16th 2018.

      Not very big or bright in the scheme of things but pretty none the less. It’s a fuzzy aquamarine blob at the moment but should be easy to spot at closest approach as it will appear to be be close to the Pleiades

    384. twathater says:

      My opinion ( HOPE ) is when treesas deal is voted down or not and we head for a no deal , Nicola will just say according to the vote where 62% of Scots and rising voted to stay in the EU I have no option but to follow the instructions of the majority of Scots and to inform the wastemonster government that due to your insistence that the UK including Scotland leave the EU you have broken the treaty of union by your actions and I am informing wastemonster we ARE NOT LEAVING

    385. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      I can’t see any hope for May’s deal winning a vote in the HoC while is still has the Irish backstop in it and there are 48 ERG rabid Ultra Brexteers AND the DUP against it, probably just the DUP against it alone is enough to see it fall is how I see it anyway.

      May won’t have a say in whether there will be a peoples vote or now, it will be parliament and once Mays deal has been defeated and no general election called all we are left with is No deal or a “peoples vote”. One of those has to win the day and for reasons explained already I can’t see moderate Torys going with No deal after they start witness empty shelves due to panic buying even before Brexit has happened. There will be enough in my view to stop the default No deal happening on 29th March. That is the cliff edge.

    386. jfngw says:

      Labour instead of calling for a vote of confidence on a shambolic government they take to twitter to attack the SNP for wanting the said vote. No matter how bad things are Labour’s eye is on how they can attack the SNP and reclaim seats in Scotland they see as rightfully theirs. It’s why they target SNP seats and ignore Tory held ones, their bottom line is to keep Scotland in the UK, no matter how bad it is for us.

    387. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Colin Alexander at 5.43

      FFS He’s at it again. Thinks we are all stupid.

    388. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      One_Scot at 5.14


      Ballymurphy massacre enquiry going on but explosive testimony getting lost in the Brexit debacle in all the media.
      Reports of entirely innocent people being gunned down by 1ST Paras. Report of a retired ex British soldier who lost an arm in WW2 being gunned down as he came out of a church and much more

    389. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 18:17,

      I guess it all depends whether enough Labour MPs will crumple under the severe economic pressures as the cliff edge looms. So far Labour have managed to duck the issue and allow the Tories to shoulder most of the blame, but as the crisis develops, the entire HoC might begin to take the flak, and that might induce a change. Especially since Corby and associates are EU-allergic, and (privately at least) might accept that their pretendy “better deal” won’t be forthcoming anyway.

      But May is stubborn, so absent her deal, I could see her digging her heels in and just letting no-deal happen. (Out of frustrated spite, rather like Adolph in the bunker.) Unlike others, I haven’t rated that outcome much before, but for me that possible outcome has become more likely all of a sudden.

    390. TheItalianJob says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hilll

      I read all your posts but who’s Colin Alexander I skip past his posts. I may have read one of his posts 2 years ago and it was a load of p**h I no longer even bother.

      But you. Keep on posting. You have a lot of good arguments that I listed to.

    391. ben madigan says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill, One_Scot and anyone else that’s interested
      Some info about the ballymurphy massacre with statements and a video

    392. jfngw says:

      Who is most likely to topple May, Labour or Tories. My vote would be the Tories, Labour haven’t touched her in two and a half years.

      May is in the meantime not playing to parliament but her voters. I have bent over backwards to achieve a deal but the EU has been unbending is her play. Time to back my deal or no deal is her direction. Whilst we laugh at this fakery I’m not so sure it isn’t playing out for her down south with the public, I’ve seen some of their voxpops.

      I saw one claim she voted leave to stop illegal immigrants, presumably she must have believed this was EU policy and the UK government had no power over them.

    393. TheItalianJob says:

      That I “listen to”. Doh.

    394. galamcennalath says:

      Looks like May is getting the bum’s rush on her walkabout. No renegotiation.

      Options now …

      – cancel
      – delay
      – WM passes Withdrawal Agreement as it stands
      – no deal catastrophe

      The EU won’t delay unless there is a reason … perhaps EURef2, General Election, gives of national unity.

      I really don’t think WM will pass the WA..

      Cancel? Who and how!

      No deal crash out? Easily achieved if everyone just continues to whistle at the moon.

      Ok, time to start buying a few extra tins, pasta, rice, UHT milk, ……

    395. Lenny Hartley says:

      Thenpr, disgree with your well thought options on the outcome, think the Rev’s are the most likely.
      Im pretty sure the “Establishment” if it favoured a “Soft” Brexit would have endorsed May’s deal or Softer. Stopping the EU legislating on Tax Avoidance/Evasion is the Primary reason we are having this discussion at all. Only a hard Brexit will deliver that and how empty or not the shelves in Supermarkets do not enter into the equation.

    396. Macart says:


      RE: Bum’s rush

      Oh, I’d say she knew that looooong before she even went to chambers and the deferral statement. No, I reckon she’s just having a mid week continental holiday. Eat some nice meals, drink some falling down juice, say hi to the neighbours (while she still can). Do some Christmas shopping. That kinda thing.

      Good excuse to get out of Dodge for a few days, yes? The can kicking damage she’s already seen to, the gambling with peoples lives and such. She knows her coat’s on a shoogly peg. By her lights (and knowing her future and career is a bit on the bleak side), she has little left to lose at this point. So right about now she’s probably on her second glass and pondering the mysteries of the univese… or some such. 😉

    397. Proud Cybernat says:


      Sorry pal – not biting.

    398. Rumour that the Whips are trying to cancel next week in parliament and send everyone on an early Christmas break – what planet are these people on?

    399. ScottishPsyche says:

      Catching up with the Dennis Skinner – Stewart McDonald spat.

      Skinner really is a nasty piece of work – he epitomises Labour entitlement and may well be exhibiting compromised frontal lobe function as well. An angry one-note old Labourite who rails against the establishment of which he is now the embodiment.

      The esteem in which he is held by younger ‘socialists’ really is baffling. A career that now consists of unfunny one-liners and disinhibited yelling. It is behaviour that would be deemed worthy of sympathetic eye-rolling in a tolerant care setting for the elderly.

      Interesting to see all the Labour hacks lining up behind him and various commentators saying what a rough old business politics is and if you can’t take it …etc.

      We should remember that the next time a Labour or GMB snowflake complains of nasty name calling and -isms

    400. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Macart @ 19:03,

      Her English exceptionalism renders her blind. She just can’t see how humiliating her little excursion with begging bowl appears to everyone else.

    401. schrodingers cat says:

      treeza mays deal issnt a soft brexit, it is the no deal that she requested (ie out of the sm & cu) but with a transitional period to prepare and start to negotiate a trade deal with the eu

      the reason treeza deal has no trade deals and only vague promises of future trade deals is because a50 specifically forbids states leaving the eu under a50 to conduct trade negotiations and deals with anyone, including the eu

      barnier couldnt have given the uk anything more than vague promises of trade deals even if he wanted to.

      what the eu did give the uk was this 2 year transition period, which a50 says nothing about nor are the eu obliged to grant the uk.

      what the eu got in return was ni permanantly in the cu/sm til a time of their chosing, even in the event of no deal

    402. I think the mask is well and truly slipping in WM now.
      Dennis Skinner had called Stewart Mc Donald SNP ‘a piece of shit’ apparently because he heckled Corbyn.

      Skinner not apologising and the Speaker said he cannot possibly comment on a conversation he did not hear.

      Don’t think that this will reach the national news headlines but what would happen if it was the other way round???

      and this other item gets to the nub of the matter…. Ireland is so small – how can it have so much power over England?

    403. Jockanese Wind Talker says:


      Another Ex-TA, based in Scotland (undoubtedly working against Scottish Independence) who is now Honorary Colonel.

      Wonder if it was awarded for Services to/In Defence of the Realm during Indy Ref 1?

      But this time it is a former member of the Intelligence Corps as opposed to ex-Signals like oor Colonel Yadaftie.

      Won’t be long before SKY News have a representative of “The Institute for Statecraft” or their “Integrity Initiative” on the 22:30hrs newspapers review slot.

      This “old Victorian mill in Fife” will be ground zero if there ever is a False Flag Op which lands at the feet of the Independence Movement (bet MI5 have bods/advisors ‘attached’ as well).

      It’ll aw come oot in the wash.

    404. mike cassidy says:

      Re BBC and the SNP.

      You know how the BBC’s fallback position is –

      If the left and right are both accusing us of bias, then we must be achieving balance.


      Genuine question.

      Does anyone know of any unionist complaints against the BBC’s reporting on the issue of independence being biased in favour of it?

    405. Capella says:

      OT – BBC report that Tommy Sheridan has won, on appeal, compensation for the loss of interest on his £200,000 award for defamation by the News of the World. He didn’t get it till 10 years had passed. So he gets another £176,000.

      BBC can’t help but add “convicted perjurer” to their report. Does everyone with a previous conviction get tagged with it on the BBC? I don’t recall Vicky Pryce on R5Live being introduced as a convicted preverter of the course of justice.
      Maybe too long a sentence.

    406. Thepnr says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      A fair point of view to have, but I have to say I really don’t think every MP is part of the “Establishment” and it is MP’s who will be voting whether to bend over and accept the default of No Deal if May’s deal is defeated.

      This is how I understand the timings of what is coming up:

      A May spokesperson has said there will be a “meaningful vote” on May’s deal before 21st Jan.

      Ii is absolutely certain that she will lose that vote in my opinion, not least because the Brexit Ultras only chance of a No deal is NOT supporting her vote.

      If she loses then and we are now at a No deal situation, the government have 5 calendar days from the 21st Jan to make a statement to the HoC about what their plans are to move forward in this situation. They also have 5 sitting days from 21st Jan to put forward a “Neutral motion” with their plans before the house.

      This means that is Mays deal fails then by sat 26th Jan we must have a statement and by Tuesday 29th Jan we must have another vote on the governments plans.

      I’m not sure if this will be a chance for putting forward an amendment for a “peoples vote” as I don’t know if “neutral motions” can be amended.

      This is what I think May is gambling on, no one other than her and closest advisors can know what they intend this neutral motion to say but if amendments are not allowed then it would appear accept governments new plans or no deal. Vote might be closer by I still believe the government will fail because she can’t satisfy both those that want No deal and those that won’t accept no deal.

      At the end of the Day there is still two onths from then until 29th March so an opposition motion could be voted on at any time proposing a 2nd referendum and if that failed then right up until the 28th March another motion to revoke article 50 could be made to avoid no deal.

      Only Brexit luvin lunatics like Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Ross Thomson et al are going to be happy with No deal. Anyone with a brain cell in parliament know it will be catastrophic for the UK and in particular ordinary people. I have faith that there are more sane MP’s than insane in Westminster, maybe only just but should be enough LOL.

    407. schrodingers cat says:

      erg have got their 48 letters

      here we go, leadership challenge to follow

    408. Liz g says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 7.24
      Aye Meg their great Labour mooth piece hiding behind the wee speakers robes!!
      Is he gonnay,admit he said it,deny he said it, stand by his comments or step up and apologise.
      Naw… I’ll wager he will depend on the MSM leaving him behind the speakers skirts!
      He’s as yellow as the rest in that midden wi sword lady!

    409. schrodingers cat says:

      hold, no official confirmation, on erg leadership challenge

    410. schrodingers cat says:

      Dr Paul Monaghan
      Verified account


      is tweeting this

    411. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye the Airborne Infantry

      1st Battalion – Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday, Northern Ireland

      2nd Battalion – Goose Green and Wireless Ridge, Falklands

      3rd Battalion – Mount Longdon, Falklands

      That was pre-Kosovo, Sierra Leon, Iraq, Afgan

      1st Battalion were always considered pricks even amongst the TA (15, 10 & 4 Para).

    412. Dr Jim says:

      Mrs May makes a VOW

      Now that would put the tin lid on it no question

      Step up Daily Record, go on do it again go on go on go on

    413. mike cassidy says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker 7.29

      And if this is the spokesman for that Gateside Mill mob mentioned in the article

      then I’m sure everything is ticketyboo!

    414. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Please, Please, Please let it be BOJO or Mogg with Ross ‘Zoomer’ Thomson as Scottish Secretary.

      Please Santa

      I’ve been very, very, very good this year.


    415. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander @5.43pm

      Yep you really are a smelly old Britnat. Colin Alexander says SNP baad again. Who says SNP baaad – Britnats of course.

    416. ScottishPsyche says:

      In this link, hopefully, you can see Stewart McD speaking to Skinner saying he will raise a Point of Order. Skinner then gets up and tells him to get on with it, walks off, turns back and shouts ‘shut your mouth’. Not very parliamentary at all.

    417. Dan Huil says:

      British nationalist officials now spreading “warnings” that the EU banking system will collapse if there’s a No Deal.

      The rest of the world now seeing Perfidious Albion in action.

    418. mike cassidy says:

      Missed the link in my 7.55

      This appears to be the spokesman for that dodgy Fife ‘charity’.

      Couldn’t get more establishment if he washed under the establishment shower while singing ‘land of hope and glory’.

    419. schrodingers cat says:

      Dr Paul Monaghan
      Verified account

      4m4 minutes ago

      “No confidence vote about to be triggered in UK PM May, Sky News reporter” | Article [AMP] | Reuters

    420. Thepnr says:


      Yeah, looks to me like he said “just shut your bleedin mouth”.

    421. schrodingers cat says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says:
      11 December, 2018 at 7:57 pm
      Please, Please, Please let it be BOJO or Mogg with Ross ‘Zoomer’ Thomson as Scottish Secretary.


      it matters not who is the new tory leader
      it matters not what his/hers long term vision for the future of the tory party.

      this challenge will be fought exclusively on their position vis a vis with brexit

      nothing else.

      (but if no deal wins, ross is a shoe in, he nailed his flag to the mast some time ago)

    422. schrodingers cat says:

      i would urge any snp mps/msps to delay commenting on this. the story is only just emerging

    423. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      The story emerged on Wings about 4 hours ago thanks to a Wings alert reader 🙂

      Nana says:
      11 December, 2018 at 4:15 pm!/conservatives-have-sent-the-48-letters-needed-to-trigger-no-confidence-20181211

    424. geeo says:

      Pretty sure the 48 letters cannot be confirmed officially until the PM is back in the Uk.

    425. schrodingers cat says:

      i missed it pnr, but with all such rumours, they gain credence through repetition

      indeed, i saw a tweet from a jouro yesterday saying he had heard a cheer from outside the 1922 commitee room.

      these tweets only re affirm belief in what is happening, but until it is official (see newsnight) our elected members should be wary of tweeting.

      im thinking of james dornan rt a poll from 12months prior claiming it was today

      im just urging caution to our elected members, who i know for a fact read these threads

    426. schrodingers cat says:

      geeo says:
      11 December, 2018 at 8:22 pm
      Pretty sure the 48 letters cannot be confirmed officially until the PM is back in the Uk.


      i dont know enough about wm procedure to comment (does anyone???)
      but i’ll take yer word for it geeo

      i wouldnt put it past treeza to apply for asylum in germany tonight just to keep her deal on life support.

    427. schrodingers cat says:

      btw pnr
      Thepnr says:
      11 December, 2018 at 8:20 pm
      @schrodingers cat

      The story emerged on Wings about 4 hours ago thanks to a Wings alert reader ?

      Nana says:
      11 December, 2018 at 4:15 pm!/conservatives-have-sent-the-48-letters-needed-to-trigger-no-confidence-20181211
      schrodingers cat says:
      11 December, 2018 at 12:05 pm
      the deal is dead, treeza only succeeded in avoiding a coup de grace.

      no one believes it is an option

      talk on twitter about a leadership challenge to may


      it was watching wm and reading posts here over the last 24hrs which made me realise that regardless of treezas prestidigitation, her deal was dead regardless of what she is doing/will do. this route is now a dead end. that includes for any tory candidate who now supports.

      lets face it, it is the tory mps who will decide what happens next pnr

    428. schrodingers cat says:

      my money is on mogg, the antidisestablishmentarianist candidate 🙂

    429. H Scott says:

      BBC manages to report the Skinner incident from Skinner’s point of view and describes (accuses?) the SNP guy for ‘escalating’ it by referring it to the Speaker. Good old BBC.

    430. mike cassidy says:

      Here’s how the BBC are reporting the possible confidence vote.

    431. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      I remember James Dornan comment and how he was slated. Agree with you that in their position they should keep mum until known for certain.

      Regarding when the letters can be confirmed I believe geeo is absolutely correct, under Tory rules for leadership contests I read today(after seeing Nana’s link) that Graham Brady will only reveal a leadership contest after he has personally informed Theresa May that he has received enough letters, so I guess she would have to be back in the UK.

    432. Elmac says:

      I have been puzzled by May’s European jaunt given statements by Juncker and others that there will positively be no renegotiation. The only explanation I can think of is that May is deliberately playing for time, not to come up with alternatives or to delay the inevitable, but to take things down to the wire so that when the dam breaks there will be no time for anything other than the UK to crash out on a no deal. Nothing else makes sense. She is a puppet of the elite 1% who are solely concerned with protecting their tax havens as well as making a killing from the Brexit turmoil. A no deal suits them perfectly. Her husband appears to be up to his neck in this as no doubt are many prominent tories.

    433. schrodingers cat says:

      cheers pnr
      appreciate that you understand where i am coming from…..
      careless talk costs lives etc

      but i cant help rubbing my hands with glee since i predicted this this would over 2 years ago

      phfeuh… fox news… meh…. fa’ needs ’em 🙂

      ps, do i get an wos award for using antidisestablishmentarianist and prestidigitation in my last 2 comments?

    434. Tinto Chiel says:

      @ScottishPsyche 7.16: spot on re Skinner, licensed jester of the faux left. Like Corbin, he has managed a career of pretendy opposition to the Tories while raking it in as an utter nonentity. What has been the sum of his parliamentary career? Diddly-squat, imho.

      Do No-voters now see our treatment in the HoC as utter contempt and hatred? Or do they just switch over to Corrie or Strictly Come Dancing wittering and think, “Wibble, wibble, wibble?”

      Martin Docherty-Hughes: rock on!

    435. Colin Alexander says:

      Elmac said:
      11 December, 2018 at 8:52 pm

      “I have been puzzled by May’s European jaunt”

      Is she making the best of the EU customs allowances by stocking up before Brexit Day on 29 March 2019?

    436. Jock McDonnell says:

      Its the little things.
      Short political film after C4 news.
      Tonight the tories, the MP for Faversham is supporting her local high street & calmly hands over £20 for sausages, no change is given.

    437. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi schrodingers cat at 8:25 pm.

      You typed,
      “i missed it pnr, but with all such rumours, they gain credence through repetition”

      Reminded me of this:-

      “The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, it should be a big lie, and one should stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.”


    438. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 20:49,

      That’s maybe really why she’s doing her otherwise pointless rounds of all the continental capitals. As long as she keeps moving, they can’t oust her!

      Maybe she’ll set up a government-in-exile on a UK base in Cyprus or something. =laugh=

    439. Thepnr says:

      @mike cassidy

      Interesting snippet there from Laura Kuenssberg:

      But, let’s take a breath. There is of course, as you’ll know if you read this blog often, no way right now of being sure how this will all play out. At 15.00 GMT I was pretty reliably told that the threshold for a contest hadn’t been reached.
      Two and half hours later, the prime minister herself said that she hadn’t been told it had.

      So at 17:30 tonight the PM said she has heard nothing about a leadership challenge? Why was she asked and who asked her?

      The mere fact that this is being printed by the BBC says a lot and the possibility that there are enough letters for a leadership contest in the Tory party look very likely indeed now I would think.

    440. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      I think it’s become kinda obvious that the MSM are defining the agenda.

      The question is, who’s pulling their strings?

    441. schrodingers cat says:

      Martin Docherty-Hughes: rock on!


    442. Thepnr says:



    443. Skinner was one of the Labour MP`s that voted for the 40% Tory Cunningham amendment during the 79 Scot Dev Ref,

      against the wishes of the Labour party leader and PM, Jim Callaghan,

      this resulted in the vote of NO Confidence that ultimately brought in Thatcher and 11 years of her barbaric Government,

      Skinner has never been a friend of Scotland.

    444. Tinto Chiel says:

      @BDTT and Thepnr: the Deep State must comprise the five tax-dodging billionaires who control the U.K. Press and the traditional Establishment who have dominated since 1707. Even the public school thickos who have dominated English life must realise the constitutional dangers of yesterday and coming Thursday.

      We need to push the right constitutional buttons at the right time.

      We were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off…….


    445. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Terrific editorial in today’s Daily Record and huge coverage of Nicola Sturgeon – again!

    446. Bobp says:

      Tinto chiel 8.58pm. I dont think your average no voter in Scotland would know what HoC meant. And as for the former ‘beast of bolsover’ is it not past his meds time.

    447. Rock says:

      jfngw says:
      10 December, 2018 at 11:38 pm

      “Some think May is stumbling around not knowing what to do. Don’t agree, she knows exactly what she is doing. the same as she did when Home Secretary, she is determined to get her own way and is going for my deal or no deal. It’s her mode of operation and always has been.”

      The Establishment and the Tories always know what they are doing. They always make very calculated moves.

      They appear as fools and idiots but are most definitely not.

      Never underestimate them.

      The only fools and idiots are the pretendy “sovereign” Scots who have been colonised by England for 311 years and will be for another 622 years.

    448. Bobp says:

      Should have said they thought someone in HoC owed loads of money,

    449. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Och Dave McEwan Hill, a link to click?

    450. Rock says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      11 December, 2018 at 12:16 am

      “I’m sure most people have noticed that 2640 is 2x12x11x10, though this in itself doesn’t mean very much. But if you put the 11 to one side, and break the rest down to 2x3x4 x 2×5, an alarming picture emerges. Becuase if you take 2 + (3×4) – (2+5), you get 7, and if you multiply that by the number you set aside, suddenly everything becomes clearer.”

      You seem to be in a bit of a muddle, poor you, so allow me to help you out as a fellow independence supporter.

      2018+622 = 2640


    451. Elmac says:

      Re Sxcot Finlayson @ 9.30pm.

      The Beast of Bolsover has a reputation to defend. He is definitely a character but at 86 after 48 years in parliament it is time for him to bow out before he sullies his legend by any more crass remarks.

    452. Colin Alexander says:

      “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”

      Thanks to Stu Campbell and WingsoverScotland and the YES campaigners who are exposing the lies and deceit that this UK Union of unequals is based upon.

    453. Cubby says:


      what is simple to understand is that you are a boring Britnat that posts a lot of repetitive Britnat shit.

    454. mike cassidy says:

      Surely 2640 is the number of years Skinner has sat in Westminster pretending to be a left-wing firebrand!

    455. Alan Crerar says:

      This week’s Economist has an interesting article on entrenched views, going on at great length and citing scientific studies to prove what we have known at least since 2012, and Linklater admirably demonstrates on the Rev’s post.
      You can wade through the psychobabble here ….

    456. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Brian Doonthetoon

      Sorry.Haven’t got one. Just read a copy in the Forward Shop today. Somebody else might be able to provide a link. I’m online useless.

    457. Terence callachan says:

      To manandboy…posted by you 4.29 today

      Yes you are right…one and a half million people in Scotland still,intend to vote against Scottish independence, who are they ? well many Scots are in denial, they quote a census from 2011 but that is seven years ago, the fact is 800,000 English people now live in Scotland that includes many in HM forces but at the end of the day nearly all of them will vote against Scottish independence, even if England pointed a trident missile at Scotland they would still vote for their motherland which is England.Lucky if fifty thousand of them vote for Scottish independence.So half the number you mention are English people the rest are hard boiled Scottish Tories and lifelong Scottish labour.
      Colonisation is quiet until they fight you from within, that’s the way colonisers have always played it, befriend you find out what the opposition is doing then work out your tactics and that’s where the Orkney and Shetland lib Dems and the north east Lib Dems are prepared to switch to Tory or labour to keep Scottish independence out and it’s where you get coalition between Tory and labour and Tory and libdem .
      Wake up.
      Forget all the crap you hear from British nationalists about blood and soil nationalism it’s the pot calling the kettle black because the only blood and soil nationalism we are seeing is English blood and soil nationalism that they camouflage with Union Jack flags and British or uk slogans that we all know are code for Englishness.
      Roll on Scottish independence.
      Take back control

    458. Rock says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      11 December, 2018 at 1:33 pm

      “Couldn’t do that Jack, the SNP fought the 2015 GE on pushing Smith through – stronger devolution – not Independence. They therefore had no democratic mandate for declaring Indy.”

      They did when “stronger devolution” did not happen.

      The SNP had ZERO effect on the Smith outcome.

      That was the time to return home and cause a constitutional crisis.

      Despite the blind faith in Nicola, the SNP is currently in an even bigger muddle than the Tories or Labour. They haven’t got a clue how they are going to be played.

    459. Thepnr says:

      Leadership challenge on May? We’ll know for certain tomorrow.

      It(BBC) said the chairman of the Conservative 1922 committee, Graham Brady, has asked to see Mrs May on Wednesday after her weekly question session in parliament.

    460. geeo says:

      Here goes coco, pretending he is an indy supporter again, just after spending days slagging off the SNP.

      Bog roll for coco….5p…50p…5p…50p…..smell his panic.

    461. Bobp says:

      Just this minute on itv news , some scumbag in hull( i think) kicking 2 rough sleepers in a doorway. First its immigrants now its the vulnerable, JC what kind of a country is england turning into?. Is this what you want to be a part of Scotland?.

    462. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Terence callachan at 9.59

      There you go again. There is not nearly 900,000 English people in Scotland. It is around 450,000 – as you have been told many times – and as polls have indicated about 30% of them vote YES. This is probably a higher percentage now and in fact some of our more active local SNP members here are very English.
      This sort of aggressive, divisive stuff is very unhelpful.
      Anybody with a vote here is a target for us.

    463. Colin Alexander says:


      Don’t you worry about me. You stick to worrying about who in the highest echelons of the SNP are the MI5 Case Officers.

      And I’ll give you a clue: it’s no me. I’m no a member or supporter of ANY political party.

      I support independence, no devolution party politics.

    464. Terence callachan says:

      I agree..comments here by several people…..Theresa May ,Westminster in general ,they are not fools they are not bumbling along ,they know exactly what they are doing this whole Brexit charade is being played out as they planned it, Nicola Sturgeon knows this,that’s why a referendum has not been announced yet.
      The greatest empire of all time was established by this place ,Westminster documents everything ,they know what has been done before and they know everything worth knowing about you so don’t ever ever be gullible enough to think they don’t know what they are doing.
      Theresa May was chosen specially for that blank look she puts on when confronted with important questions and for the waffle ability in all circumstances that leaves you looking at her with a frown on your brow and a tilt of your head to the side and don’t forget Cambridge analytica ,even if it has been shut down there will be another working steadfastly for Westminster providing it with up to the minute data showing who supports who in Scotland.
      This is Westminster you are talking about.
      They have a grip on you and Scotland and if you are unaware of that fact you are not paying enough attention and not enquisitive enough about these matters.

    465. ScottishPsyche says:

      The glee with which hacks are reporting the Skinner incident shows there is one rule for the Labour-Tory elite and another for anyone daring to intrude in that Labour-Tory cosiness that exists in Westminster.

      Of course, McDonald was going to come out of it badly – he is the interloper. They have now dug up a tweet from 2013 which supposedly shows his hypocrisy but as ever context is everything.

      As I understand it, the language used wasn’t the main problem, it was the unrelenting harassment of SNP MPs who were not being allowed to voice any criticism of Corbyn without Skinner taking them to task in his bullying and vulgar manner.

      It really is a zoo down there and I hope that the SNP MPs keep showing their disgust at how Westminster is run and never become used to it.

    466. Maid_in_Scotland says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 8.58 “Do No-voters now see our treatment in the HoC as utter contempt and hatred? Or do they just switch over to Corrie or Strictly Come Dancing wittering and think, “Wibble, wibble, wibble?”

      I’m afraid they do. I know quite a few here in the Highlands who freely admit they couldn’t care less. “Politics is boring and it doesn’t affect me”. So what interest have they in the future of their country (Scotland) – none. For me, that’s the saddest thing of all, particularly so because they’re actually quite decent, sensible and nice people, they just lack any kind of passion. Heid in sand, I suppose, but worryingly these are the very people the media and unionists target with their negativity and scare stories.

    467. Terence callachan says:

      To dave macewan….you missed out your usual mention of the 2011 census.
      There you go again misleading people
      Why would you be doing that ?
      The reality of the Division you speak of is having 800,000 people from the country that ignores you that insults you that threatens you that wants to abolish your parliament that erases your flag and identity and history, being able to vote for their motherland to continue this subjugation because they are currently living in Scotland even though they are likely to return to live in England.
      That is the real division.

    468. jfngw says:

      I see Murdo the Misogynist is at it again with his tweeting.

    469. Some Tory twat – Simon Hall? on R4 just now – when asked how we can move forward has dissed Anna Soubry’s suggestion to have a gov on National Unity formed from the two parties just went off on one accusing the SNP of using this situation to grind their axe of Separatism and independence.

      I despair!

      Maid in Scotland – I agree – a friend of mine yesterday said… Oh, I’m so sick and fed up of all this Brexit rubbish, no idea what it’s all about…. and changed channels

    470. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Meg merrilees

      Are you friends with Theresa May?

      Cos Meg merrilees said: ” a friend of mine yesterday said… Oh, I’m so sick and fed up of all this Brexit rubbish, no idea what it’s all about…. and changed channels”

    471. yesindyref2 says:

      On the other hand of course:

      SNP MP to SNP MP: “Corbyn’s got no balls”
      Skinner: “You’re a piece of shit”
      SNP MP: “I’m going to report you”
      Skinner: “Shut your f’ing mouth”.

      Or is anyone going to claim the SNP never call other MPs cowards, liars, dicks or whatever – specially when the house isn’t even in session.

      Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, the SNP are going to look like wusses. At least Skinner didn’t punch them out in the bar 🙂

    472. Clootie says:

      ….is it over yet?


    473. Proud Cybernat says:

      Sky News saying 48 letters have NOT been received by 1922 Cmmt.

    474. ScottishPsyche says:


      Of course, the SNP can be as childish and uncouth as the rest but Skinner and his acolytes think he should be allowed to get away with this stuff and others shouldn’t.

      Corbyn knows the score, politics is a rough old game, he shouldn’t need Skinner to protect him etc, etc. Just Westminster double standards again.

      McDonald is now the Softy Walter of the green benches…

    475. Hamish100 says:


      your fondness for labour is shining through again.

    476. Colin

      Has T May got any friends?

    477. Skinner is a nasty British nationalist obnoxious bully,

      like all bullies he will continue until someone does something about it,

      standing up to bullies might get yourself in trouble or even a fat lip but it might stop someone else being bullied.

    478. Gary45% says:

      Skinner is not a bully, just another bygone, FUD nobody.
      Its time the SNP walked out of Westminster again.

      Colin Alexander@ anytime.
      What’s your point???

    479. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Fuck up Skinner ya saggy old english cunt.

      Anyway, let’s move on.

    480. Colin Alexander says:

      Meg merrilees said:
      11 December, 2018 at 10:58 pm

      “Has T May got any friends?”

      I think she’s gained a few in Scotland for the great job she’s done in encouraging support for Scottish independence.

    481. jfngw says:

      Does this mean Mrs May after touring the EU begging for help has to change tack and tour the offices of Tory MP’s begging for support.

      Meanwhile it is rumoured that SNP MP’s are currently playing ‘I Don’t Feel like Dancin’ in their offices.

    482. yesindyref2 says:

      I don’t have any fondness for any political party. But as for Skinner, I’m not convinced the Labour party thinks he’s part of the Labour party.

    483. yesindyref2 says:

      Jings, that’s 4 of them doing the anti-English thing, and the 5th is taking the piss.

      At least the woodwork is safe for a time.

    484. Rock says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      11 December, 2018 at 10:32 pm

      “On the other hand of course:

      SNP MP to SNP MP: “Corbyn’s got no balls”
      Skinner: “You’re a piece of shit”
      SNP MP: “I’m going to report you”
      Skinner: “Shut your f’ing mouth”.”

      The posters here who think they have the God given right to use the “f” word on this blog will not object to Dennis Skinner’s language in the hated Westminster parliament.

      K1 says:
      9 December, 2018 at 10:40 pm (The Stoned Roses):

      “There is no ban on swearing on Wings and no one moderates this, so why the fuck do people think it’s okay for them to moderate other posters’ language on here.”

      Elizabeth Stanley says:
      9 December, 2018 at 10:47 pm (The Stoned Roses):

      “K1,What a fucking wonderful post!”

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      9 December, 2018 at 10:53 pm (The Stoned Roses):

      “@K1 –

      Hear fuckin hear.”

      Dr Jim says:
      9 December, 2018 at 11:08 pm (The Stoned Roses):

      “Scottish swearing is punctuation”

      Liz g says:
      9 December, 2018 at 11:16 pm (The Stoned Roses):

      “Well said K1… You nailed the point with class and mair tae the point with grit…
      Fuck me I’m glad ye oan oor side… LOL”

      sandy says:
      10 December, 2018 at 1:19 am (The Stoned Roses):

      “Now, if the powers that be should disapprove the “F” word, many, including a few on this blog, would be at a loss.”

      For the record:

      Rock says:
      9 December, 2018 at 11:05 pm (The Stoned Roses):

      “The usual suspects wanting to drag down the best blog in the country (UK) into the gutter with them.”

    485. yesindyref2 says:

      The thing is Skinner is only important if the SNP MPs make him so. Smile and ignore him, and he’s impotent not important. And bearing in mind the talk about language on Wings the other night, there’s little difference between calling someone a piece of shit, or a thug. In fact the latter is closer to defamation: “a violent person, especially a criminal“. Piece of shit is just “A despicable person” or similar.

    486. jfngw says:

      I believe Corbyn has written to the 1922 committee demanding they hold off on a Tory vote of no confidence on May until he makes up his mind about his vote. He claims first dibs apparently and doesn’t want to look a fool being outflanked by a shambolic party.

    487. geeo says:

      I see the bigot and the clown are providing the entertainment tonight.

      Good work lads, us actual indy folk need the laughs you provide.

    488. mike cassidy says:

      If you add up all the occurrences of ‘feck’ on this site

      It comes to


    489. boris says:

      This is a two part article the content of which will expose the recently formed organization for what it is. A Westminster State supported attack on the right of Scots to be independent from England.

    490. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      11 December, 2018 at 10:14 pm

      “Terence callachan at 9.59

      There you go again. There is not nearly 900,000 English people in Scotland. It is around 450,000 – as you have been told many times – and as polls have indicated about 30% of them vote YES.”

      Does that mean about 70% (more than two thirds) vote No?

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