The counsel of despair
He’s got no right to shoot from there.
There’s less than half an hour to go and we’re holding the previous year’s World Cup finalists on their own patch. A point would be a great result, but we’ve got men up. Try to thread it through on the left. Turn, hold it up for a second and knock it out wide to the overlap on the right and get forward for a cross or a cutback. If we just wait, if we take it slow, the situation can only get better for us.
But definitely don’t waste it on a wild, optimistic punt.
Right?
The French commentary is much better, of course. The Scottish one can’t quite accept what’s happened, can’t bring itself to believe that we’re big enough or strong enough or good enough to have gone ahead legitimately (“well, the ball must have moved… I can only assume it’s taken a huge move”).
But anyway, back to politics.
We can’t rush to independence. We need to win big & get it right, says @GrayInGlasgow. We need clarity on the Brexit madness & losing twice is not an option. We need patience & persuasion. #skotia #AUOBEdinburgh pic.twitter.com/7sHBge9iKN
— Skotia (@TheSkotia) September 28, 2019
Michael Gray is a good guy. He wants independence. It’s not his fault that he’s so annoyingly young that he thinks he’s got all the time in the world to achieve it at a nice leisurely pace, while some of us already have one nervous eye on life’s ticking clock.
But the argument he makes in that video is fundamentally misguided and dangerous, for a number of reasons. Here’s where Wings Over Scotland stands.
(1) Even if we all had 10 years or more to wait, we cannot imagine events which would create circumstances more favourable for independence than this.
If Brexit is somehow avoided, it’ll be used as proof (with some degree of justification) that the UK works and Scotland’s voice is important, which 99% of the time it isn’t. But if Brexit takes place, no matter how bad it gets we’ll be told independence will only make it worse by adding even more chaos and upheaval.
Every day we’re out of the EU, with the UK government burning everything down, will in both emotional and practical terms be a step further away from Scotland being able to rejoin seamlessly, and therefore a more difficult sell to voters.
(And hey, let’s not automatically assume we’ll even still HAVE a Scottish Parliament by 2021, the way the UK government is going.)
(2) 60% support, let alone SUSTAINED 60% support, is almost certainly a fantasy. While Brexit has shifted quite a few people around since 2014, it’s been swings and roundabouts. Folk are pretty entrenched now, and even a working range of 45%-55% is probably a slight exaggeration.
If we ever DID get to a consistent 60%+, that would simply make Westminster less and less likely to permit another referendum. And Catalonia shows that appealing to the international community to step in is a pipedream.
No country that’s ever won its independence has gone back. But from where we are now, the only way to get support above 60% is to actually become independent. Like the smoking ban, people will quickly come to wonder incredulously why they ever opposed it, how something as stupid as Scotland handing responsibility for its affairs to another country that doesn’t give a damn about it was allowed to go on for so long.
Unity on any contentious topic only ever comes about in retrospect. The idea that we can magically generate a consensus whereby everyone just nicely agrees for Scotland to become independent will never, ever happen. The only possible route to unity is to win first, then behave properly and decently afterwards.
(Which is where the Leave side went disastrously wrong after the EU referendum, as to a slightly lesser extent David Cameron did on 19 September 2014 with his stupendously misguided “now shut up and let’s hear the voice of the English” speech.)
People adapt. They’ll adapt to Brexit if and when it happens – and again, every day that people start to get used to a Brexit UK is a step further away from independence. Unionists will adapt to and accept independence after we win. Not before.
(All that said, it’s also worth noting that nothing shifts opinion like a campaign. The first referendum was called when we were almost 30 points behind in the polls. People are a lot more willing to listen when there’s actually a tangible reason to, rather than it just being an abstract debate that they’ve already been having non-stop for the last eight years and are quite bored of.)
(3) We cannot underestimate the profound disillusionment that’ll descend on the Yes movement if we get to 2021 and beyond without another indyref. People have been kept on constant high alert for five years. It’s tiring and stressful.
If that all comes to nothing, if the SNP’s constant promises of delivering another vote by 2021 are broken, there’ll be anger. There’ll be recrimination. There’ll be infighting. All of those things are present to some degree already, and if another 18 months pass with no progress they’ll explode like a dirty bomb.
A great many activists will be thoroughly scunnered and walk away. The movement’s infrastructure, already thinning out and under strain, will crumble. Building back up to where we are now will take years.
To all intents and purposes, in other words, it’ll be exactly like we DID have a Quebec-style second vote and lose it. The damage will be similar, but we won’t even have had the chance of winning.
And what will the SNP’s post-2021 line be to keep the troops marching up the hill only to be marched down, yet again? “You gave us three mandates and Brexit on a plate, we blew it, give us some more and it’ll work next time, honest”?
It’ll be like listening to Labour promising to abolish the House Of Lords, like they have at every election for the last 120 years without ever really even attempting it. People will roll their eyes wearily. The SNP’s ongoing dismal transformation into their former rivals will be complete. A 2026 indy majority? Dream on.
It was right to be patient until now (although more work should have been done). But the time for patience is running out very fast. The house is burning down around our ears and the time for sitting around casually deliberating over the small print of the instructions on the fire extinguisher is just about up.
Or to go back to where we came in: you can’t always walk the ball prettily into the net after a slick, perfectly-choreographed move of 25 passes. Sometimes you’ve just got to grab a half-chance and put your laces through it.
Okay Mr Peffers, we’re all ears…
10 years; I’d be pushing 90 if I should be so lucky. No its got to be soon, 2022 at the latest
Exactly!
unionists calling snp feart just for not calling election before 31st Oct, imagine not calling indyref2
I got a whole article! I’ve made it 😀
Here’s another more developed point – I did after all only have 2 minutes to summarise a position:
To win independence we need an effective leadership and a successful campaign/movement.
These two groups are in danger of diverging at the moment. The SNP leadership talked up an early referendum in 2017 and then backed down. It’s not clear if they will follow through on holding a vote in 2020 and are yet to signal any response to Westminster just saying ‘No’.
People in the movement are getting restless & you yourself have considered even setting up a new pro-independence party.
My video was recognising this reality. Expectations may be dashed next year and frustrations could boil over. We need to be ready for the fact independence may take longer than any of us want. The leadership may be more patient than the movement is. That’s understandable – they need to govern and reach out to the country as a whole. The movement wants to be more assertive – on that I actually agree in most cases. But most of all we need to be prepared to see different perspectives and debate this reasonably. Because if we all end up splintering and falling out that’d be the problem. Whenever the date is set, we campaign together and we win.
Michael Gray @GrayInGlasgow and @TheSkotia
I see the Rev has commissioned Panelbase to ask people a few questions as a friend received an invite to partake. I was having tea and cake when it arrived on her phone and she read out the questions and I said I knew where this has come from. Didn’t see her answers though.
10 years, fuck that!
“But most of all we need to be prepared to see different perspectives and debate this reasonably.”
I thought the article was some pretty reasonable debating 🙂
But I think you’re underestimating how many people will just chuck it if the SNP blow it in this Parliament. If a chance as good as this is spurned they’ll put away their flags, pack up their dreams, wipe away their tears and get back to their normal lives, where Thursday nights are movies or pizza or poker rather than Yes Blantyre or whatever. And who could blame them? It’s been a long shift.
Sure, you and the rest of the Young Team might still be full of beans and hope but you’ll be increasingly alone on the streets, being dodged like charity muggers, an earnest and idealistic fringe with no chance of achieving anything. You’ll be RISE, basically.
Sturgeon is on record as saying she wants another referendum in the second half of 2020, so I don’t get why people are talking about 2021 unless she’s moved the goal posts yet again.
It’s all academic anyway, she’s had THREE years to sort out independence and instead, has worked tirelessly to stop Brexit. It was just two weeks ago that she said that she would support a referendum to rejoin the Union if Scottish people didn’t like independence!! What kind of nonsense is that??
Today she’s reported as saying that she’ll support Corbyn as a temporary PM. She’s working hand in hand with the Westminster establishment, helping them, assisting them when it’s Scotland that needs the help and assistance to get away from Westminster!!
The best chance of Scottish independence has been and gone and Sturgeon purposely blew it, nothing will change my mind about that.
Completely agree with this 100%. There will never be a better time. It’s time for action from the SNP.
I’m pretty much coming round to the opinion that early next year is the time to start the campaign, right now, with Brexit on a knife edge would be foolhardy.
Once we either have an extension or after we crash out is the time.
If by some miracle we stay in, I suspect things in England will get quite ugly
You have it exactly as I see it.
Only problem is how do we persuade Nicola Sturgeon to act within the next 6 to 9 months.
If she does n’t independence will never happen.
I will emigrate to a more benign country,probably Canada west coast.
“Michael Gray is a good guy. He wants independence…”
I’d certainly agree with that.
Here he is in 2013 visiting the Prime Minister of Iceland the year prior to our First Independence Referendum.
PHOTO:
https://tinyurl.com/y5sera89
If the SNP betray their mandate to hold Indy Ref 2, and give Scotland a choice over exiting the EU, I’m out of here. The SNP no more, as the Proclaimers might say.
But that’s not going to happen is it.
Is it?
Michael Gray is talking mince. We’re too wee, too small and need to get things right….
Rubbish.
You get things by getting off your arse and going for it!
“We need to make sure that the stars are auspicious…” my granny’s arse we do.
“It was just two weeks ago that she said that she would support a referendum to rejoin the Union if Scottish people didn’t like independence!! What kind of nonsense is that??”
That kind of “nonsense” is called ‘democracy’. The FM was saying that if Unionist parties can win a majority in HR and get a Referendum thru to ask England if it was willing to re-create the UK. Unlike the British Nationalists, Scottish Nationalists actually respect the other side’s immutable right to democracy.
“The best chance of Scottish independence has been and gone and Sturgeon purposely blew it, nothing will change my mind about that.”
Dinnae fret. IR2 is coming.
@Michael Gray
Your blow by blow commentary in the Court of Session was brilliant, thanks very much.
I’m surprised some of it doesn’s seem to have sunk home, like bits about the Claim of Right and Declaration of Arbroath … and now Cherry & Co with the nobile officium move.
Any comments how that might help out for IR2 in 2020?
”
Proud Cybernat says:
28 September, 2019 at 3:25 pm
“It was just two weeks ago that she said that she would support a referendum to rejoin the Union if Scottish people didn’t like independence!! What kind of nonsense is that??”
That kind of “nonsense” is called ‘democracy’. The FM was saying that if Unionist parties can win a majority in HR and get a Referendum thru to ask England if it was willing to re-create the UK. Unlike the British Nationalists, Scottish Nationalists actually respect the other side’s immutable right to democracy.”
It IS nonsense because Scotland nor any other country can keep having referendums every few years bouncing in and out of independence. I know this, Sturgeon knows this, I’d suspect that most people know this.
It IS nonsense.
Like the smoking ban, people will quickly come to wonder incredulously why they ever opposed it, how something as stupid as Scotland handing responsibility for its affairs to another country that doesn’t give a damn about it was allowed to go on for so long.
——————–
Can’t be said too often: handing your finances and all your other affairs over to your neighbour is very, very weird behaviour. If someone in your town did this they’d rightly be regarded as the local freak. They’d be laughed at in the street all their lives.
And all the more so if that neighbour is starting to hang fascist flags from his windows.
“Tut tut. Can’t believe my neighbour’s turning fascist. I myself am strongly anti-fascist, a right guid solid centre-left type. Still, I’ll continue handing my life over to his control because that’s what my parents did before me.”
Unionists are free to make their own political choices, of course. But let nobody tell you there’s anything normal about them. From the perspective of any country but this one, they’re craven, brainwashed village idiots. Freaks.
Totally agree, totally scunnered with all this pish about waiting for 60% in the polls, we have a mandate in fact a triple mandate for a referendum on Independence. If the SNP dont use it before this parliamentary term is up im out. For forty years I have been tramping the streets, attending Rallies, Conferences , meetings etc, if the SNP procastinate when we are on the cusp of Indy im finished with them.
As an aside I play golf often with couple of guys, most weeks they are having a go about the SNP and Indepedence. This morning the pair of them advised they now vote vote For the SNP and Independence. Yesterday another Who has always been anti SNP told me the same.
Two of the most prominent tories on the Island have told me they will no longer vote Tory but will vote Liberal. The tide is turning in our favour
We must have an Indy ref by May 2020.
Yes, Stu. It’s a reasonable piece.
I was champing at the bit to go asap after June 2016. But the leadership wasn’t.
So back in 2016, 2017, probably 2018 too, I essentially agreed with your points – and didn’t understand the delay. So if the leadership isn’t prepared to push for a referendum it leaves everyone building up false expectations and being let down and divided if it doesn’t happen.
That’s why people would get dispirited. I agree. Presumably your proposal for a new pro-indy party is precisely because of that risk? Personally, I don’t think people would give up on independence completely – but I’m concerned that there is a deep division over the date for indy2 when the most important thing is that we win it whenever it happens.
That piece puts the situation exactly as it is. Time for the new party Stuart, the SNP is not going to move unless they are forced to
Please, somebody tell me what the fk I’m missing.
Scotland’s people voted emphatically to reject Brexit in a referendum held under UK democratic conditions, and Scotland’s people are sovereign, hence any removal of Scotland from Europe is not only lacking ANY mandate, it must in fact overrule the Sovereign Scottish mandate to remain. That is unlawful. That is unconstitutional. That is British Colonialism forcing it’s way past Scotland democracy and constitutional sovereignty. It is Government without consent in a bipartite Treaty which requires consensus, and does not function without consensus.
Please tell me why the fuck Scotland has no Constitutional Backstop which binds Europe and Westminster to recognition of International Law, specifically that Colonial subjugation is unlawful, and that if Westminster wants Brexit, it must demonstrate how the Irish Backstop can be resolved, AND how Brexit can be achieved without the Colonial subjugation of a sovereign Nation.
Please, somebody tell me why the fk we’ve spent the last three years doing sweet fuck all to save our Nation and economy from Brexit.
You can take your referendum next year, or even a referendum on Brexit day +1, and shove it up your arse. IF we stand by while Scotland is removed from Europe contrary to International Law, Scotland’s Independence is a busted flush in 2019, and as a Nation, we will have to start all over again from the grassroots up, and form a new political movement which at least recognises Scotland’s popular sovereignty.
Meh… who else ye gonna vote for? Any fucker but limp dick wankers like you. Next question.
“It IS nonsense because Scotland nor any other country can keep having referendums every few years bouncing in and out of independence.”
Then you don’t seem to understand how democracy works. If that is what people vote for then that is what should happen. It’s not upo the FM to tell people what they want, it’s up to the people to tell her (or her successors). Democracy is not “bollocks”.
Excellent article, but only because I agree with every word.No doubt others will jump on it as a defeatist post.
We don’t need clarity on the Brexit madness. It is so clearly mad. And furthermore, madness clearly imposed on the Scottish people.
To oppose that level of subjection with nothing but pussyfooting would be the worst mistake ever by the independence movement. People who promise themselves they’ll be braver and more decisive a few years down the line are only habituating to subjection.
Since 2016 NS has stated she will decide when to call the next Indyref once all the circumstances of Brexit are known. We still don’t know that.
She also knows that as soon as she makes her move, Better Together/Project Fear will re-unite instantly against us. BBC will go into overdrive against Indy.
Whilst she continues to play her cards close, the BBC etc. can’t attack her and, instead, must keep all their attention on the Brexit crisis. How they would all love a Brexit distraction and to turn all their ire on the SNP.
The British EStablishment must be furious NS refuses to make all their Christmases come early, by quietly waiting for her own time and on her own terms.
Give a fool enough rope and he will hang himself. NS has quietly given the British Establishment all the rope they need to hang themselves.
Spot on Stu, especially with the state of the movement!
Most folk like to sit back in smug satisfaction about this vast ‘movement’ that we appear to have – the stark reality is that there’s only a handful of local groups with a handful of activists within that are putting on a really really good show, but it’s far from sustainable forever – we desperately need a campaign in order to get all the other indy supporters shaken up and back to being active.
Moaning on twitter about WM isn’t activism.
Putting on community events that bring in the indy curious, having actual conversations outwith rallies with folk about the devastating effects of the UK on Scotland, mass information dissemination like posting the IndyPosterBoy leaflets through doors or the It’sTime.Scot project, and myriad other practical exercises, are what is required right now.
The movement needs greater numbers to be active before we can successfully reach out to the general public – if the core of this ‘holding pattern’ movement that we currently have gets burnt out and loses hope (some are already dangerously close rn) then there’s simply no structure to build an effective grassroots campaign on *whenever* IndyRef2 is called.
Oh, what a breath of much-needed fresh air. Great good sense from start to finish.
I hope that those who really need to read this do read this and inwardly digest. If I read another “we’ve got to delay until we’re really sure we can win”, I’ll scream.
In this context, here’s something very practical worth reminding everyone about:
https://gogetfunding.com/lets-show-scotland-that-we-are-big-enough-smart-enough-rich-enough-a-scottish-independence-advertising-campaign/
Here’s the thing if Nicola and the SNP are successful in their bid to prevent a NO Deal Brexit, and given the lengths they are going to, I don’t see why they won’t be, then the chances of winning any Scottish referendum after that point will be slim to none.
IMHO it is only going to be a win if Boris wins.
I’m concerned that there is a deep division over the date for indy2 when the most important thing is that we win it whenever it happens
————-
This
I am in two [at least] minds on this.
1. I agree that it is better to strike now, before things get worse AND people get used to the state of things. As it is people under 40 won’t understand that society doesn’t have to be like this – no grants for college, zero-hours contracts, Sunday working being the norm, commercially owned utilities [water, gas, electricity, phones, mail etc], unjust and pitifully staffed, and privatised, Civil Service.
And the polls won’t reach 60% until we have a voting date set.
My local group has a handful of regulars coming to Yes meetings and we do the occasional thing e.g. free delivery of The National but without a date there will be no mass activity.
2. But I expect the SNP leaders are wanting to be able to point to a clear majority of support in the event that Westminster refuses to co-operate with a referendum.
What is it that you think the SNP should do, Rev? If I and others know what it is we can urge it to all our SNP MP/MSPs.
Michael appears to have made the mistake of thinking the future is linear…Everything for YES will be just like now just a bit “brexity”.
STOP PLAYING POLITICS LIKE ITS A CHURCH FETE
Just as YES moves, the Union moves against you and they play harder than you (300 years of history should have taught you that). You can call for a 60%…and once Holyrood is gone, all Westminster would have to do is change the voter mandate to include so many non-Scots – 60% would never occur.
YES has been given this moment and you either need to take it or bear the consequences. Right now, you have a Westminster distracted to cover its English civil war, a Scottish parliament, a Westminster Scottish majority, and a mandate, and constitutional rights.
If/When Westminster changes the ground rules under your feet…how do you manage Indy once they remove your institutions while plundering the country. This government has seen Brexit as a tool to rewrite the entire system and indications are it will be brutal.
Anyone who thinks Scotland has time for Brexit to really hit – is naive to the extreme. Westminster didn’t give a hoot about ports or customs…but they have already legislated for extreme control measures.
Henry VIII power
Military on the Streets
Emergency Powers
Stockpiling body bags
Those don’t look like a government planning for a trade disruption….those would be more consistent with a government at war with its population.
I forgot to say that when we do get asked, the answer will be Yes to Scotland regaining independence. I have no doubt at all.
We almost won last time when it was a new idea to many, and the campaign was full of lies from Better Together. This time the Unionists may be worse but the voters know more and independence is an accepted idea.
I am sure plenty of readers on here have lost family and friends due to Tory austerity and really needed independence in 2014 to save them from the misery and torture that was subsequently inflicted on them and was easy enough to forecast by anyone who looked at the actual facts.
To wait another 10 years with the horrors that will be inflicted on the poor and vulnerable due to brexit is not an option for many and should not be accepted as an option by a normal caring society.
These sort of proposals always come from politicians or political commentators who view it all as a political game that they have to win.
The human costs are too often forgotten by these people and are only ever raised by these people when it suits their political purposes, often as the result of some well publicised tragedy that they jump on to promote themselves and their position.
Do I sound angry, I hope so.
These political professionals all to often hold us back by shouting their different preferences whilst missing the main objective and creating divisions or at very least points that the mainstream media and opposition can use to give the appearance of division.
The only thing any independence supporting political professional should be doing is pressuring the SNP to call Indyref 2.
Mist001 @ 15:15,
Not even ultimately emerging facts? Strange.
There’s an old saying in the North-East that seems to apply here: “Feels en bairns shouldna see things hauf deen”.
And “Sturgeon”, eh…?
There shall be another Independence referendum before 2021 despite Newsnight last night trying to peddle the notion that we’d wait until after the 2021 SGE before arguing that we have a mandate to hold Indyref2.
We have it now.
By 31st October we’ll know for sure.
If Johnson barnstorms the UK out of the EU, that will be the starting gun of a 12 month campaign for independence, polling day in September 2020?
If England syas No, you cana’t have one, we take them to court, and go ahead anyway, while the International Courts, and the UN consider the matter.
We have right on our side.
England will go into severe social financial and political meltdown while we take forward Indyref 2.
If WM manage to stop Johnson leaving without a Deal 31st Oct., then there will be a Transitional Government, a delay to Brexit, and a UK GE.
When pro Independence parties are returned in a majority as is forecast, then that is mandate enough, yet again.
Any nonsense that we sit on our hands for a decade is just incredible.
In ten years England would destroy Scotland’s Parliament, and officially turn Scotland into an occupied colony of Greater England.
Michael Gray@ 3.03
We’ve already been in the position that you are speaking of!
After the No vote in indyref 1 all the talk was of which steps we needed to take in preparation for indyref 2.
How to counter the Media,how to normalize independence and crucially how long it was likely to take…
We (especially , but not exclusively, on here) war gamed just about everything. The huge rise in SNP membership was one of the first steps,the National was another.
Everyone seemed to think we were looking at about 10 years to pull it off back then.
…. But then Brexit….
So we really don’t have that kind of time anymore.
The yes movement won’t be held back much longer and I can’t see any good reason to wait.
You may cite reasonable reasons but you can’t predict where the voter’s will be at in the future any more than I can.
But the one thing that’s beyond dispute is that right here right now there’s a fully fledged Yes movement prepared to swing into action that’s something that should not be allowed to wither…. Sometimes ye just have to take the hand that ye have and go with it.
I suspect even another no vote would not destroy the Yes movement only inaction at this point in time would risk that.
Of course, it’s not lost on us old wrinklies, that this young man is saying, ‘If you are over 65, you’ll not live in an Independent Scotland’?
I doubt his commitment.
“Whilst she continues to play her cards close, the BBC etc. can’t attack her”
Someone should possibly explain to the Scottish media that they can’t attack, because they don’t seem to have noticed.
@RJS
“Sturgeon” – aye, ah noticed it too. Must think we’re stupit or something.
Cubby
“Asked by reporters if it was a possibility she could hold a Catalan style referendum without the permission of Westminster, the First Minister said:
“No, I am not open to that possibility.” “
@Breeks
What is the point of the Claim of Right if we can be removed from the EU whilst voting emphatically to stay in, it hardly seems worth the paper (not actually paper I suspect) it is written on. If the international community is willing to ignore Scotland’s sovereignty over this why would we expect them to recognise an independence claim.
Unfortunately the international community are resistant to change unless there is violence, or the threat of it, involved, unfortunate but it seems to be the way of world politics.
“Sturgeon”?
You don’t have to worship at the temple of Nicola to put an x next to an independence vote.
Perhaps you want to make that a condition.
“No, I am not open to that possibility.”
Voting to secede from Spain is illegal – it’s in the Spanish constitution that Spain is indivisible (or words to that effect). The FM is basically saying she is not open to a Referendum that would be regarded as being illegal.
The thing is, the withholding by WM of the S30 is a political decision, not a legal one. It has never been tested in any court of law whether the outcome of a ScotIndyRef can be actioned without an S30. (I think this is the issue the Rev wants settled so that we know precisely what we’re dealing with).
There is every possibility that we can legally hold an advisory IRef2 and seek the S30 after the fact for this is, after all, merely asking WM to accept the outcome. If they do not then it’s game on; a right stooshie will begin.
After three awful years of being put down, ignored, told we are useless etc, it doesn’t matter if there is a hard Brexit, a soft some kind of deal Brexit, or even, unlikely, no Brexit. The UK should/can “be” no longer. It can never go back, it will never work again. The union needs to be dissolved regardless now. It really is the only way forward.
And pretty dam soon.
Bon Dias Troops. 10 years!! We have an embarrassing wukfit sitting in no 10,who has “form” regarding Scotlands water. Waiting 10 years, our last natural resource will be under Westminster control, so we might as well “chuck the towel in noo”. Missing the Internet here in the Mediterranean, so not sure what’s happening in Scotland. 10 years? Go and do one.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/CRE-9-2019-09-18-ITM-007_EN.html
UK Withdrawal Debate EU Parliament 18/09/2019
Alyn Smith SNP: “…There is no such thing as a good Brexit. There is no such thing as a good outcome to this.
I cannot support the resolution today despite your best efforts and your good faith. I do not believe this Withdrawal Agreement will deliver because of your interlocutors. Scotland has other chances in this. We need more time to reverse Brexit. Please give us that time”.
Compare and contrast with:
Martina Anderson (GUE/NGL). – “Madam President, my Irish passport says that it is the entitlement and birth right of everyone born on the island of Ireland to be part of the Irish nation. As this resolution clearly states, we Irish in the north of Ireland are therefore entitled to EU citizenship where we reside….our right to self-determination as recognised in the Good Friday Agreement in British and Irish law”.
Too long complicated and too many what if. Boring. Tedious
There is no mystic Meg,
There will be no Brexit and Independence is coming soon,
The SNP and carrying their mandate to the letter and have not put a foot wrong.
Big exciting Conference coming up. Hope unionist carrying does not spoil it with premature GE.
Everything to look forward. Even for the elderly. The changing demographics.
When I was first old enough to vote in an election, I guessed that Scottish independence was likely about ten years later and for me, at that time, that was half a lifetime away. On that scale, I’ve waited almost two lifetimes, already, and I’m still waiting.
Spot on, Rev.
But what to do? Well, we’re an independent country that happens to be stuck in a terrible union with another country that somehow calls all the shots. If the Scottish people decide that that union no longer suits or benefits them, then they should dissolve the union. What UN or EU body would argue that? The people exercising their God-given right to choose, as per Claim Of Right? (No, we’re not like Catalonia,FFS)
The Scottish Parliament should pass a bill to dissolve the TOU, then call a confirmatory referendum (or the other way around). It’d be nasty, but we’d have a better chance of gaining independence – a return to pre-1707 self-rule – than hanging around waiting for a S30 order, that, if it ever comes, will tie us up into constitutional knots that would make it impossible to win (do we really think that Westminster will rollover and grant a replay of 2014? Nae chance.
We’ll have to fight for it, lads and lassies. Do you think our leader’s up for a fight?
“There will be no Brexit and Independence is coming soon,”
How?
I’ve said all along that playing by England’s rules as a devolved integral part of the ‘Union’ meant we would always be at the level of an English county. At no time have I heard the SNP argue on the basis of the breaches of the Act of Union and Claim of Right.
The wrong playing field i.e defending ‘UK’ rights, not Scotland’s over Brexit means that Cherry et al’s endeavours are buried under the ordure of English navel gazing and impending Civil War. In effect, we will be either dragged out of EU against our will and or buried completely by a new UK Constitution which will wipe out Devolution and any Referenda aimed at ‘separatism’.
Years ago on this blog, I predicted the rise of English nationalism and a repeat of the 17th century struggle over Sovereignty. I did not predict our supinity in face of this revolution based on Englands inherent contradictions resolving themselves thus,by sitting back and making the same mistakes that our Presbyterian forefathers made of throwing their lot in with the English only to be ground down and subjugated by Cromwell and subsequent Wiiliamite incorporation. But history appears to be repeating itself.
Proud Cybernat@4.09pm
Many thanks for answering that deliberately misleading and wind up question from Mr Alexander. He knows that is an incorrect nonsense question so he is trying to wind me up. I was pondering whether to answer the Britnat troll but now I don’t have to.
I don’t read his long posts but that one caught my attention as it was clearly designed to do.
Very, very well said. Big thanks.
Indy ref 1 was a vote for a big change – could we, should we, can we be bothered?
Indy Ref 2 is our only hope to save ourselves from the chaos and destruction of Brexit – and it looks awfully like our elected reps – sitting on 3 mandates – are not going to let us near the ballot box.
If they think they are going to be the new labour and keep dangling the carrot – they are in for a really big shock. I’ve voted SNP all my adult life. They’ve got one last guaranteed vote left from me. I will never forgive them if they don’t get us to the ballot box.
And for those that say, NS is just playing her cards close to her chest. Enough now. The hostile media mean that the only way she has to deliver any campaign is US. And If we are not given the script and the date – we can’t do that effectively – and it needs to be getting done now – there is no more time.
32 days till a Hard Brexit. No time now for a GE or Ref before then. All hopes pinned on a GE soon after – when it is not in the interests of any Brit Nat party to allow that when the SNP are so high in the Scot Polls. And a rampant tory win in Englandshire will mean they will cheer them to the rafters when they ignore the Scottish vote and shaft us.
And all efforts being spent trying to safe England from itself and pursuing a Fools gold plated S30 order which will Never be honoured in the event of a yes vote.
I regularly read Ian Dunts twitter account, 3 men in a pub, etc – and do you know what? None of those lovely, decent, democratic English people – give a flying fuck about the democratic deficit in Scotland – their eyes roll and the subject gets changed or the comments become derogatory – and yet they were all for SNP support to fight Brexit.
I lived through the Thatcher years. The 3rd GE in thought there was no way Nicki Fairborn could get re-elected – he scraped in. The 4th time, I hardly dared watch – and every one of the tories in Scotland got booted out. And Perth is dyed in the wool tory. We are there now, they won’t admit it, they won’t answer your polls particularly, but we are there now.
We must have a chance to save ourselves. And do you know what, If Scotland does not go for it this time. It will break my heart, but I will dust myself down and get on with it. They will not deserve indy.
Led by Donkeys have shown what can be done with Billboards and our own crowdfunding has started the same here. Utterly pitiful that our organised party of Indy – with all its experience and organisation and funding, after all this time, hasn’t done the same.
And for the absence of doubt – for once – this is very much SNP Baad.
Rev says “how”?
Two tsk. Bet you don’t even believe in the Tooth Fairy.
Magic you know. The most right wing PM in British history will give us anything we ask for when he is re elected. Well,either him or Farage if Johnson gets the heave ho.brave
It’s almost as if you believe the PM would defy the law for goodness sake.
Catalonia is a region in Spain, Scotland is a Nation in its own right, the Catalonians seem to put more effort to gain independence than the Scots, everyone on this site is looking for independence, we all have different views, some more radical is that not Scotlands problem through history we all have different ideas we have to work together, the Scottish government are working for the population so we have the right to know what’s happening regarding independence.
Neil@4.46. I feel your pain. We are all optimistic and live in hope. We are standing in front of an open goal, surely we will not hit the crossbar again. Karma is on our side this time. It has to be.
So what is it that we do exactly?
What is shooting at the goal now? Is it UDI? A referendum without section 30?
Did I miss the Plan B memo?
“We should all do something now” or worse “They should do something” is not a call to action. Without specifically spelling out the “something” it is just counter productive shit stirring.
Indy campaign should begin on November 1st,whether still in or out of EU.
@ Unionist Media BDSM Club, 3.28pm:
I shouldn’t insult the afflicted, but, after talking to a fair number of them on a street stall today, I have to agree with your assertion. Mostly proud of both their ignorance and affliction too…
RE an Indy Ref 2 in 2020 or 2021?
From the corrupt Indy ref 1 I recall the date 2021 was identified as the sweet spot
We’re a significant number of the aged voters who were scaremongers into the No
Camp would have expired and the number of new young voters, who want control
Of their country, would have delivered independence.
I think SNP needs to make more of how the UK pension is the 4th worst in the EU
and how the Tory think tank is recommending the UK retirement age should be 75.
This of course would mean most men in Glasgow would never see a pension after 55 years
Of contributions.
Michael Gray has yet to understand and acknowledge how brutal is the British state, and how efficiently its colonial mentality will block any move that allows the people of Scotland equality or liberty.
He assumes the power elite are not advancing their plans now is measure of his inexperience and lack of historical perspective. We need his enthusiasm but not leading from the front.
After over 300 years of squalid colonial rule and after attempts to regain nationhood, some bloody, some peaceful, quite frankly, someone needs to tell him asking for patience is insulting.
This might help: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-f9U
Your essential weekend reading
How Iceland taught the UK humility: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-nZC
‘Pain and Glory’ – a review: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-nZg
““We should all do something now” or worse “They should do something” is not a call to action. Without specifically spelling out the “something” it is just counter productive shit stirring.”
FFS, I wrote it about a year and a sodding half ago now and have linked it countless times since. Does anyone ever bother reading anything?
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-elephant-in-the-courtroom/
That all sounds marvellous except Michael Russell said there will be a referendum next year, that’s 2020, I watched it on the Telly, along with Murdo Fraser pretending he was joking about his 75% majority Tweet and Adam Tomkins trying of think up ways of thwarting it, and Michael Russell refusing to allow the electoral commission to tamper with the tried and tested question that had been asked 56 times since 2014, the Tories weren’t liking it it but accepted it was happening during a Holyrood committee on the new referendums bill
I didn’t dream that
I fear that Michael is woefully underestimating the damage to the campaign if this is delayed much longer. Most of the grunt work now is being done by the 30 to 60 year olds, and if they drop out if campaigning through disillusionment then the campaign is done. Yes, of course we’ll vote Yes, but all that grassroots effort we’ve been putting in whilst the SNP has NOT been clear or taking necessary legal steps, will be lost
I just remembered something else, Michael Russell laughed and rejected all and any form of *super majorities* in the upcoming referendum, if it’s good enough for one referendum it’s good enough for all referendums, you don’t get to change the rules of the referendum unless you do away with referendums and come up with something that isn’t a referendum
@Rev: I’ve now read “the elephant in the court room”. You said the SNP must pass any kind of bill to start the referendum process going.
Isn’t that what is happening now?
I think a new Indy party is needed asap. Let the SNP administer the daily routine of government in Scotland. And as we observe the SNP parliamentary conformance to the unwritten UK constitution – to continue under a Westminster procedural constitutional yoke, more like.
A more radical Indy party is needed to drive the impetus to independence. Faint heart never won fair lady. The Court of Session weren’t faint-hearted. we need the opportunity to show that we, Scotland aren’t faint-hearted.
The mal-behaviour of Johnson is astonishing, and yet witness the media, willing to call him Prime Minister, to normalise his behaviour.
Wake up folks, it is independence for Scotland or UK Neocon financial dominance, translated as – the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.
Selection of the species I suppose- if you accept the rules, of selection. Now about that unwritten UK constitution.
We could threaten to boycott voting SNP at the forthcoming GE
UNTIL,
the SNP seek a manifesto mandate to assert Scottish sovereignty either as an independent state or sovereign within the Union until a confirmatory indyref is held.
Basically, a return to their pre-2000 SNP policy.
I likewise think that the planets are in auspicious conjunction to take a punt. I doubt things will be more up in the air that allows for all the 2014 tropes to be pushed to one side.
I’m not even convinced it is high risk for the SNP. If a second referendum fails then it will be an issue that is put on the backburner for 20 years or more. Will people still vote SNP? Probably. Those who are content with a centre left pro Scotland party but are nervous of independence will feel safe voting SNP. Their vote may go up.
I understand that Michael and others do want to win this and don’t want it to fail but I’m not seeing how waiting, when the UK is failing on every level, is not being over cautious. I’m not advocating the lunacy of the clergy at Dunbar but rather the audacity of Montrose to seize a moment.
However, it is not my call. In other news I’m relieved to see Aberdeen kept it down to 5. I was predicting 8. My goodness! they are utter pants this season.
Do not flee, wait till we negotiate, where have we heard all that before, we’re not in a movie off the Telly and yes it is a load of pish and one mans opinion on information he doesn’t have just like the rest of us
Brexit, well that’s probably likely to happen this time because the party that doesn’t seem to want to co-operate with everybody else is the Liberal Democrats, and gosh why would that be if you were mad hungry for a wee shot at power like Jo Swinson the Tory you’d do a deal with Herrmann Goering to get yer backside on a government seat, even if it is just Junior partner skivvy
Lot’s of stuff can happen yet and everybody’s got a guess at it but in the end if the majority of Scotland even by one vote isn’t convinced now by the time this young mans vision comes around there won’t be a Scotland left
One part of Scotland isn’t ever going to accept Independence ever under any circumstances, there’s not going to be a warm and wonderful transition to *the new way* as this young man hopes because he obviously doesn’t live where an awful lot of the rest of us live, and it’s not in nice cafes drinking coffee and talking about knitting raffia in a convivial atmosphere of mutual understanding
Now, ten years from now or a hundred years from now the nutters will cause bother and folk have to accept that they will and prepare for it, instead of some mushy idea that they’ll all come round in the lovely fullness of time, coz they won’t
We get it done and we get it done now just like Bend it like Boris is doing in the country he represents, and that’s the point, he doesn’t represent Scotland, none of them do so lets get our business done before we don’t have a business
I see on the news that the Lib Dem’s are showing their true Tory colours today.
That will not form an opposition alliance to remove Bojo as it means putting Corbyn
In a temporary PM position.
They also tag any SNP support for Labour as an Indy Ref 2 sign off.
So it’s Jolly Hockey Sticks Swansong as PM or Boris stays put and delivers No deal Brexit.
It also heralds their determination to keep Scotland as an English colony.
I think the comparison with Labour and the House of Lords is a good one.
It’s super presumptuous to imagine that the SNP can get away with failing to deliver indyref 2 as promised, and then expect people to keep voting for them because “next time, honest”.
Disillusionment and distrust will be rife if they don’t do as they pledged so there can surely be no guarantee that people will give them endless mandates, and quite right too.
“Asked by reporters if it was a possibility she could hold a Catalan style referendum without the permission of Westminster, the First Minister said:
“No, I am not open to that possibility.”
——————–
Generally I believe NS and the SNP’s strategy has been fine in recent years, but one weakness has been being too honest at times, and this is one such instance. What is the strategic advantage in NS saying this? If she’d said she was open to the possibility (while in private she really wasn’t) it might have sent the Unionists down a timewasting blind alley of wargaming this scenario.
Another and arguably more important instance is saying we’ll support Corbyn as interim PM, while the Labour party reciprocate with endless infuriating switches back and forth over granting a S30.
NS is a genuinely likable and admirable person, and even by many opponents is seen as a straight-talker, at least by the standards of modern politics. And you have to wonder if her awareness of this element of her personal brand leads her to be more honest than she needs to be at times.
In other words, it’s time for the SNP to stop being so reliable/honest/predictable in their public dealings with Labour, while Labour aren’t within a mile of doing the same. This over-honesty makes us look too keen to please and therefore look like supplicants.
Are we really more desperate for independence than Corbyn and co are desperate to form a govt? I doubt it. We’re coming to the table with equal pressures on us to compromise and reach agreement. Let’s start acting like it, and if necessary start sending them the same mixed messages they keep sending us.
Guys don’t underestimate Nicolas commitment to Indy .
At there conference they will have to lay out some kind of timetable and it better be 2nd half of next year .
Also Section 30 it will all come down to what does she do if she asks for section 30 and whoever is PM says no what then .BTW I am not an SNP member but I am not having a go
The entire edifice of the Scottish Parliament and Government as codified in the Scotland Act(s) is one big S30. Have a read.
The UK ‘Constitution’ if it is codified at all, is defined as all its Acts of legislature. Constitutional issues are a reserved matter: Ergo all Acts are reserved matters and indeed, that is precisely what is set out in the Scotland Act – severally. There is no uniqueness to an Independence referendum which requires an individual S30. It is a tautology, a redundancy.
To flip this – including competence for an Independence referendum, or even if it was not specifically excluded, is still part of the glorified S30 which is the Scotland Act and “does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland”.
Does anyone recall a certain ‘Scottish Bill” anent Brexit.
Scotland’s powers are an S30, it includes specific competencies and yet may still be amended. An S30 for an Independence referendum wouldn’t be worth the paper it’s written on. There is no bar to legislating against it retrospectively, nor similarly rescinding in the event of a change of government.
Call a referendum and let the courts argue the toss (to follow the football metaphor) and a mighty constitutional stooshie that one would be. How would Scotland’s populace react?
Well many polls have the majority electorate, in favour of power to decide any legislation to be within Holyroods remit – across political persuasions and even specifically an Indyref (I believe such findings were also in one the Wings Polls)
As for percentages. There never will be and seldom are much more than 47% a side (give or take a couple), with undecided, floating voters holding the balance. What sways undecided voters and always has? Money. They will vote with their pockets, which is why “Vote Indy and you will be poorer” won.
This time, the opposition will have to run with “Vote Brexit and be richer” and I just don’t think the undecideds in Scotland are wearing that line at all. In fact, I think there was a referendum on it.
O/T
OMG, just saw in the paper’s TV section that oor Ruth the Mooth is on ‘Celebrity Chase’ at 7-30 tonight. So that’s where her new career is going to be, glad I don’t have a TV licence any more!!
Iain mhor says:
Well many polls have the majority electorate, in favour of power to decide any legislation to be within Holyroods remit – across political persuasions and even specifically an Indyref
——————-
Which is why establishing this beyond dispute should be at the heart of the SNP’s GE campaign.
‘Indy will be at the heart of the campaign’ is too vague to fire the troops up on the doorsteps. Instead it should be ‘It’s for Holyrood to decide our country’s constitutional matters. If you agree then give us your vote.’
90% of Scotland’s MPs elected on that platform gives us a far greater position of strength to demand an S30. Also, the movement *needs* a constitutional blowout like this to aid morale.
Most of the rest of your post I agree with, but unfortunately just don’t see NS going in that direction. Not in the next couple of years at least.
Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 18:34,
Fair comment. If I was the SG, I would be instructing the civil service to quietly prepare for a go-it-alone IR2, and make sure that the folks in London got to hear about it. (The Referendum Act is arguably a very astute potential first step on that road.) They might prefer to risk an agreed referendum instead of point-blank refusing and risking a disaffection that could grow.
I have a feeling that’s what AS was up to (with Nicola doing the background prep, don’t forget) last time round.
We keep struggling with the apparent lack of traction over an S.30, but it’s easy to overlook that the London junta aren’t exactly in a great place over that either. The anticipated upcoming significant electoral gains for the SNP on a loud-and-proud independence platform will be impossible for anyone to gainsay. Not least with this drumbeat background of “taking back control” and an increasing portion of the angry southern knuckledraggers wanting shot of us anyway. The more our presence, our words and our deeds thwart and aggravate them, the better.
.
In reply to this quote “There will be no Brexit and Independence is coming soon,”
Our intrepid WoS Rev. Stuart Campbell says: “How?”
Well, if I might be so bold…
I know not whether Nicola Sturgeon has a grand plan. I see and feel the lack-of-Indy frustration of AUOB and my fellow Indy supporters.
When to call IndyRef2 is torture. Get it right and a new dawn rises with ourselves getting to run our own country. Getting it wrong does not bear thinking about. Yet the high heid yins need to do this. High stakes poker.
My crystal McBalls reckon…
1) Mr Ian Blackford MP will either propose, or co-author a vote of no confidence in Boris Johnson’s government in the next five days.
2) Behind the scenes discussion will have persuaded enough of the banished 21 ex Tory MPs plus Amber Rudd to back a VONC, because…
3) Even though Jeremy Corbyn has first bite at caretaker PM under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, the banished Tories and LibDems have been assured, and will vote for…
4) Either Ken Clarke, Harriet Harmon, or my favourite, John Bercow as caretaker PM.
5) Sufficient opposition MPs will vote for John Bercow or one of the others to be caretaker prime minister to make it so. This next bit is why IndyRef2 will happen…
6) 17 million English Brexiteers will utterly pi$$ed off with Ian Blackford and the Scottish MPs the English Brexiteers will hash-tagging the hell out of #fuckoffscotland that anti-Scottish hatred will do the job for us.
7) Before 31st October 2019, prime minister Bercow will have negotiated a deferral of the proposed Brexit day until 30th June 2020.
8) The General Election is likely to happen in December 2019/January 2020 depending upon inter-party negotiations. Remember we WILL have a new PM and national unity government by 15th October 2019.
9) Dominic Cummings will be investigated and arrested for aiding and abetting malfeasance in public office (this is a bonus point as that sick fkuc is an anarchist and will be had up in front of the justiciary soon enough).
10) As England wants we scrounging Scots to fuck off and what England wants it gets, we will have our IndyRef2. Prime Minister Bercow will grant a Section 30 Order allowing IndyRef2 when presented with the proof of our democratic wish for IndyRef2. That handshake between John Bercow and Ian Blackford at the 2am prerogation in the House of Commons meant a great deal to both of these men.
11) Sufficient voters in Scotland will realize what a close escape to economic meltdown we have had, along with the understanding of the true democratic deficit agin Scots, as beautifully illustrated on the cover of Chris Cairns excellent book, that we will win IndYRef2.
12) England will have a second vote on Brexit (or rather Eng-Exit) and Farage will win. England will leave the EU and go slowly bankrupt as it has no Scottish Oil to bail it out. Whilst the £1 billion rental of Faslane for the Big Willy waiving nukes will finish off the Bank of England. With exquisite irony England will need to adopt the new Scottish currency (the Merk) and accept Scotland bailing England out, thereby extinguishing all the disgusting English myths about sweaty Jocks living off of the English taxpayer.
My good friend Stuart Campbell, you asked “how”. At this stage, none of us have crystal balls. But if we did, then that is what I believe will happen. Paraphrased slightly due to “events” but pretty much according to someone’s plan somewhere.
Cheers, Al.
Colin Alexander 18:15:
Jeez, you are getting more and more transparent by the day. Team BritNat must be really crapping themselves now.
If brexit happens a Scottish independence referendum will take place within a few months
If brexit does not happen , and that is a possibility , England will have sucked another four years of Scotland’s wealth into the south of England and will be extremely confident that it will get a majority of people in Scotland to vote against Scottish independence when it promises to raise pensions and drop ideas of increasing the state retirement pension age, job done.
SNP trying to stop brexit is baffling to me I just do not see the point , if England want to leave let them leave and take the opportunity to have a Scottish independence referendum at a time when two thirds of the people in Scotland will be angry about being taken out of the EU, job done.
I’ve had a few emails from supposedly Nicola Sturgeon telling me to be patient and they’re doing stuff blah, blah, blah.
I have respectfully replied pointing out that we need an officially declared campaign right now to move the polls then we might get close to 60% especially if the polls reverse and a few show Yes 54% and No 46% then a lot of people will fall in behind us because either they want to be on the winning side or don’t want to feel they were on the wrong side of history.
THEN and only then might we get to 60%.
But your point about us being less likely to get a Section 30 is probably correct. WM only tactic then will be hoping against hope the polls will over time go down, that the SNP’s defiance of normal politicala gravity will fail and a Unionist cabal get into power to do SOMETHING or as you say abolish Holyrood. Though I would hope and SNP Scotgov would at least try to circle the wagons and keep going. Though I can’t see cautious Nicola calling a UDI even in the face of oblivion.
So the SNP had bloody better have a bloody good PlanB that won’t get bogged down in the courts. Craig Murray has already some time ago listed all the likely alternatives and that various countries have legitimately used them.
Hell in the Czech and Slovak Velvet Divorce they didn’t even properly ask the people. It was presented as a fait accompli by the politicians. ‘We can’t make it work any more’ they told everyone. Job done, milk cannot be put back etc.
Indy ref 2 Too late for this year, and best to wait to see Brexit as no good is coming from it.
A section 30 can be obtained through the courts, with ref any time between April and September next year(2020) its only Unionists I’ve heard talking about 2021.
The Counsel of despair.
Was this post written before or after the football at Ibrox. Only joking Mr Site owner. For those who don’t look at football scores and at the risk of getting the hammers Rangers 5 Aberdeen 0. I guess that would drive any Aberdeen supporter to new levels of despair.
Other football news. I had to turn away as I saw some of Sheffield U versus Liverpool today. Sheffield are sponsored by a company called USG. Well USG stands for Union Standard Group and the football shirt has a DOUBLE union flag emblazoned across it. That was just too much Union branding for me. It’s bad enough it’s on everything in the supermarkets but you can’t watch a game of football without a DOUBLE union flag brand staring you in the face. I hope Gove doesn’t get any ideas from this.
Rev Stu and Colin Alexander, separated at birth, Im out.
Unionist Media BDSM Club says:
28 September, 2019 at 6:34 pm
“Asked by reporters if it was a possibility she could hold a Catalan style referendum without the permission of Westminster, the First Minister said:
“No, I am not open to that possibility.”
But I thought, as some on here aver, that Ms.Sturgeon was keeping her plans to herself.
I am a citizen of Scotland. I ask no English MP’s permission for anything.
We shall be an independent nation within a year of England leaving the EU.
For Johnson to blurt ot No at WM the other day means nothing to me.
I do not recognise his authority over me and my countrymen.
The Fifth Column Up Here who act as agents for a foreign power, that’s England, lest there be any confusion, have no mandate to dictate to their fellow Scots citizens.
We shall remember them.
Correct me, or inform me, if yous can.
Is not the Sec. 30 agreement thing, it seems to me, a promise from Westminster that they will Not, in the event of a Yes vote, send troops over the border to help us see the error of our ways.
Robert J. Sutherland
Britnat? Bullshite.
Do you think a Corbyn UK Govt is any less Britnat than Boris?
Aye or No?
Do you think replacing a Tory Bojo No Deal UK Govt, with Corbyn and his EU-ref2 policy, will increase support for indy?
Aye or No?
Al-Stuart – I like your thinking.
barge.
Yes watching The Chase now…never seen it before weirdly and up pops Ruth D. Within about 3 minutes she’s mentioned her maternity leave and son by name at least three times.
Poor wee soul is going to grow up with a d list game show ‘celebrity’ mother and no doubt teased to hell and back at school. Sad all round but she has to make a buck somehow I guess.
Nicola Sturgeon will be mince, and her political career over (at least, in Scotland), if there is no Indyref2 before the 2021 Holyrood elections. She must surely be fully aware of that fact.
She knows full well that she can’t kick Indyref2 into the long grass for ever. She knows she can’t even or postpone it till or beyond the 2021 election. If she tries to do anything like that, there will be an uprising within the SNP, and she will be ousted.
Of course, she knows all that. She is fully aware of the divisions in the higher echelons of the SNP in regard to her handling of the whole matter so far. And that she will be held to account for any failure to achieve the goal.
She will also be ousted if she holds Indyref2 before the 2021 elections, and loses it. She knows that too. After such a loss she knows she’ll have to resign the leadership. End of story, and end of the road for her, at least in the SNP.
I have plenty of doubts about her strategy, as do many in her party, both at the top of it and among ordinary members. And I don’t think she is getting everything right. But what I do NOT doubt is that she ABSOLUTELY WANTS to WIN Indyref2, and in as resounding a victory as he possibly can.
She’s a professional politician, and still rather young. She does NOT want her political career brought to an abrupt and premature halt. Of that I am sure. Without a doubt, her strategy – all of which she does not reveal, so we not know the whole of it – is AIMED at WINNING.
I find it all very frustrating, and there are elements in the way she goes about it that I do not like at all. But I won’t mind at all if all my criticisms finally prove wrong, just so long as she DOES win Indyref2. Or, if not her, then someone else.
Meanwhile, the only reason I would ever (or sometimes do) spread my criticisms of her around to others is when I think that that will help to increase the pro-indy vote. Or if, on occasion, there is an issue (which usually has nothing at all to do with independence) on which I feel conscience-bound to oppose her, taking the opposite line of the one she supports or proposes.
She has many talents but so far, in my opinion, she has not proved herself the best or most effective campaigner. That may be one reason why she originally wanted polls to be showing a steady 60% before she called Indyref2. It seems to me she is no longer insistent on that point, which is pretty much a pipe-dream. Even if it became a reality, I think it could give rise to the kind of complacency that would be very bad for the pro-Indy campaign. The truth is that you have to win the vote during the campaign. You can never have it all done and dusted beforehand.
Indyref1 itself demonstrated that, by the way the Yes vote surged during the campaign, especially towards the end, and not before it.
Despite all my frustrations about the present situation, I do understand Sturgeon’s insistence that she has to know the exact outcome of Brexit before she fires the Indyref2 pistol. I expect she is as frustrated as I am that this outcome has taken – and is still taking – so long to become apparent. But it is obvious that she needs to know what Brexit concretely means before she decides EXACTLY HOW to deploy her ‘independent Scotland in Europe’ card in Indyref2.
I have no doubt that there is in the inner echelons of the SNP various different plans, already well laid out, taking into account the different possible Brexit outcomes. If Brexit is x-shaped, we will argue y. If it is d-shaped, we will argue f, and so on.
Indyref2 won’t be all about Brexit, and Scotland’s future relationship with Europe, but these are obviously key issues which will loom large during the campaign. Sturgeon and the SNP leadership are surely well aware of this. Just as they are surely fully aware that Indyref2 will take place BEFORE the Holyrood elections in the middle of 2021.
It simply has to. Otherwise Nicola is mince. You may be quite sure that she knows that.
The Holyrood election in 2021 will no longer be for a devolved parliament. It will be the first election in the modern post-1707 era for a fully-fledged parliament of a free and independent Scotland.
Be sure of that fact. Which is, no doubt, already written in bold in Nicola Sturgeon’s diary.
And start acting accordingly.
And if you think she’s daft enough (and so naive about her political future) not to have decided that already, moreover irrevocably so, … don’t worry … In that highly unlikely case, there’ll be an internal coup and she’ll be replaced at the head of the SNP by someone else who will deliver the promises, and indeed the goods, on time. Within the prescribed period of time, and in accordance with the promised delivery date.
Scotland’s material circumstances have indeed been radically changed by the outcome of the Brexit referendum, and there WILL indeed be a SECOND INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM. Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU AGAINST HER WILL.
And – PS – if you are worried about remarks of Sturgeon to the effect that if Scots gain independence and later don’t like it, they will be able to have another referendum about entering into a new Union with England, don’t be! She’s only having a laugh. She knows that once we get it, we’ll never look back, and pretty soon even No-voting Scots will be very happy with our new situation. She has complete confidence in that outcome – there will be no reversal of independence once it has been acquired.
And besides being confident, by putting it that way she is taking the sting out of all those who, in regard to any referendum (on Brexit, or Scottish independence or whatever topic you like) are arguing that you can never re-run it. Of course you can, if there is sufficient support for a re-run. Countries that run plebiscites more regularly than we do – Switzerland, Ireland etc. – don’t deny the possibility of the question coming back, so long as the normal conditions are fulfilled.
@ Jack Collatin
Well said Jack.
Coco
Floundering like a fish after your “let’s not vote SNP” remark. You are truly outed!!
Totally, totally, totally agree 10000000% with Rev Stu’s article and analysis.
If the SNP leadership are thinking they are on the right track just now, I have bad news, they are most certainly not.
Right now, in Westminster, their is a moronic Prime minister, happy to flout the law, who is utterly out of control, and with a minus 40 something minority in parliament. You could NOT ever in the last hundred years, find a weaker Westminster government. Yet, the SNP leadership, still want to sit back and think about it, and hey, ‘who knows, their could be an election or wel,, nobody really knows what will happen..’, etc…etc…
You could not ever find a BETTER time to call an independence referendum, not now, not ever. If they do not deliver, on their absolutely crystal clear mandate, then the electorate will punish them. But, but, but, their defenders say, ‘oh but just you wait until brexit kicks in, things will be so awful, the support for indy will rise’. This is such nonsensical baloney as to beggar belief. Post brexit, folk will be scared, terrified of ANY further change. You wait, and post brexit, support for indy will crash within days.
I am frankly sick and tired of the SNP/Scotgov leadership, looking this way, that way, and ANY frwaking way, to avoid getting on with independence. When calamitous events are unfolding, which DO affect Scotland, take a look at the SNP twitter feed, and what will you find? something about Nicola’s favourite book, or how the SNP have increased the number of child care hours or some such. NOTHING, and I really do mean NOTHING about how Scotland will be better off running its own affairs.
I am now convinced Nicola Sturgeon is feart of her own shadow. Not once have I seen her truly stand up for Scotland. Oh, she does interviews where she calmly talks about how awful Westminster is or some such, but their is no passion, no anger, no outrage at what London is doing to Scotland. Eveery single SNP and MSP should be mad as hell at what is being done, but they seem to have collectively decided that, well, brexit is happening, and it’ll happen to Scotland because not one of them is prepared to stand up for our country.
The SNP have spent weeks/months/years trying to stop brexit for the UK, when instead they should be focussed on ONE country, Scotland. They toil away in Westminster pulling this plot and that plot, and with every single attempt to prevent brexit in England, they undermine Scotland’s rationale for independence. England voted for brexit, Scotyland did not. It is Scotland they need to save, not England. England is getting what it wants.
As I have stated before, I was at the big do at the hydro in Glasgow when Nicola became SNP leader, big freaking foam finger and all. I, and everyone there was filled with renewed hope. Now I am in utter despair. It is like the SNP are totally afraid to stand up for what has been their number one poliocy since they began.
It is ridiculous. It is absurd. They sahould be jumping in with full force, and not ‘asking nicely’ for a referendum, but demanding one, and then doing it, REGARDLESS of what London thinks. Westminster will NEVER hand over independence. NEVER.
I left the SNP many months ago, because of their timidity. No matter what Westminster does, the SNP moan and whinge, but DO NOTHING.
Call the freaking referendum. stop freaking well dithering and diddling. Their will NEVER be a ‘perfect’ time. Such things do not happen in politics. `they would say, ‘oh, but what if this… or what if that…, or what about the next thing… what if their is an election… what if their is a hung parliament…’ But these things will always be possibilities, such things do not go away.
The Scotgov/SNP need to seize this chance right now. The time for waiting is long gone. If they do not, I for one will NEVER forgive them, and I think many others in Scotland will feel the same. In years ahead once everything settles down, folk will say, ‘but why did the SNP never go for independence among the chaos, and honestly, their will be NO rationale answer and nobody will understand why.
It is a golden opportunity. Take it. The indy folk are ready and waiting for the call. We will not wait forever.
I agree with your opinion on this Stu, on the football commentary, and regarding ever getting to near 60% consistent independence support – maybe if there was a no deal brexit, but we will have all starved or died from lack of medication by the time actual independence arrived – and all the related economical disaster will be the one we’ll inherit. So an absolute no-goer waiting for such a percentage. Anything over 50% polling should be enough to give the SNP plenty of options, if the referendum is not forthcoming. Thems the rules. I also think a referendum needs to be done next year, latest 2021, but probably not for the same reasoning above.
But, I personally won’t be angry with the SNP if it doesn’t happen. I will be angry with the establishment, with Westminster, with the elites that control them, with foreign interferences, and with history. All the stuff about the SNP being too comfortable in Westminster and not trying etc is just state propaganda stirring up discontent and anger, and haven’t they done well. Yes, always good to keep those with power on the straight and narrow, but acting against them is acting against our own best interest. If you feel a certain degree of anger, chances are you ARE being influenced by the state machinery. That’s what they want, and that’s how they’ve always done it.
I still feel somewhat depressed about the highland clearances, and I see the last 300 years as a kind of long lasting national depression and self-pity. We were roundly defeated, sold out, kicked again and again when we were down. We were sold out long before the treaty of union ever came into being, centuries of fighting and unrest, incited and caused by our neighbour, nobles all sucked into the fraternity of our neighbour, selling out again and again – but still the union was not the majority choice then. So many people then left, and were made to leave, I don’t think we’ve ever recovered, or been allowed to recover. Never allowed to lick our wounds and grieve for what was lost, or for what could have been.
The only criterion I had for voting Yes in the first independence referendum was that there should still be some vestige of self-respect left in Scotland, that people could lift themselves from the perpetual self-pity – and that was shown without a doubt, beyond even my most wildly optimistic imaginings, and it was truly magnificent to see. The vigorous debates, the engagement, it was like beautiful music for me, people did care, and still do care. Even if the referendum was lost, it was still the most heartening thing to experience, to know that there is hope for the future, that there was suddenly a good possibility one day we can start building a proper nation again, where the land is ours again and we can use it it for our own benefit, to build communities and industry. Only then will we be able to grieve properly, for our past, and to lose the depression, to truly move on.
So, if independence doesn’t happen in the next couple of years, it isn’t the anger I fear. It’s that we will all curl up and die just a little bit more. So, independence needs to happen, it’s madness that we are still in this union, and madness for anyone to think it’s somehow a good thing. But everyone has their opinion.
Whatever the SNP are doing, they are manoeuvring through the nasty convoluted political establishment, and I believe their strategy is working – and I don’t believe they will fail for want of trying – but these aren’t ‘normal’ times, it’s too unpredictable to say how any strategy might work or not.
I did write to the SNP when they kept going on about how we should start ‘having conversations’, telling them that until a referendum was called, you cannot in any way force people to engage in such conversations – people just don’t. But I understand that calling a referendum too early gives the opposition too much time to interfere, or change the law mid-debate as Westminster is wont to do. Catch-22, rock and a hard place. I really wish we had the luxury of repeating the first indyref campaign, but I think this one is going to be fast and dirty. Anyway, I’m going with the SNP strategy on this one, and if it doesn’t work out, I might just start building a Wall.
Independence is really Plan B. That’s been the situation since the vote in 2014.
I think the issue here is around framing. Do people want independence? Well what does that actually mean? The devils advocates amongst my friends say that it’ll just be the same as we have now but smaller. I disagree, but where’s the overwhelming evidence that I can show them HOW it will be different.
Independence is a vehicle as is brexit.
Rather than ask whether or not people want independence we need to discover what people actually want.
For instance I want to live in a nation that can provide employment for everyone, a good standard of pubic health and a great education; the right of a parent to stay at home and actually bring up kids without financial hardship;
A state funded transition to a green economy ; non-aggressive foreign policy; work towards energy and food security (amongst other things)
Is this achievable? You’re darn right it is IF we make the right choices.
NONE of this should be about Brexit – A ‘LEXIT’ for example would likely have a very different outcome to the one we face under the tories. Rather it should be about what WE want as a society and I believe the SNP should be talking more about that.
So firstly, as plan A we make the demands of the currency issuing treasury in London to achieve our goals and issue an ultimatum. (Not going to happen)
Plan B we have a referendum based on what kind of country we want to be. We BECOME the currency issuer and start shaping the country the way we want it.
There are plenty of pro-brexit people on the left that would find this attractive and when folk ask about the EU membership we reply that we will enter the trade relationships and agreements that fit the above values. We have far far more going for us than we give ourselves credit for.
Colin Alexander
Don’t vote for the snp will provide what Uk or Scottish Parliamentary majority?
You claim SNP membership. Really?
I must admit over the past Year WoS has becoming more a tool of the ukippers than pro Independence.
If you don’t vote SNP you will not get independence.
Some on here seem happy with that prospect.
Maybe we need a new pro Independence web site!,
Bet that woke a few up! Lol
And here’s the first step..
https://www.reservebank.scot/?fbclid=IwAR05LlmaVbjOzALe1bFbEHdAoc-lwXjJHjbs1KI_Evva2OI0pznoKVbm9Jw
‘I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion.’
Alexander the Great
There must be a short run into Indyref2. If we go for a year the msm will have time to plan their propaganda and mi5 will have deleted or messed up every other in the electoral register under 50 and duplicated every one over 65
We know the question and what it is about now
@Robert Louis
Hear hear, I couldn’t agree more except I left them more than two years ago because I saw the writing on the wall even then. That’s why I refer to Sturgeon as Sturgeon and not her first name or anything else because I have absolutely no respect for her. She might be a good administrator but she’s not a leader, not by a long chalk. More often than not, she seems to be working on behalf of the Westminster establishment.
What I think she has done though is assured herself of a cushy number in Brussels once people cotton on to her and she’s emptied from her current job.
Mist001
OK, how do you propose we acvhieve independence? ‘Sturgeon’ has done more for the cause than anyone skince Salmond.
What have you done?
Mist001
OK, how do you propose we achieve independence? ‘Sturgeon’ has done more for the cause than anyone since Salmond.
What have you done?
Colin Alexander is not a supporter of Independence and is full of shit, just in case there were some folk that were still not sure.
Hamish100
No, I am NOT a member of any political party. I’ve only ever been a member of one political party: The SNP. I allowed my membership to lapse. I wasn’t kicked out.
So tell me. Did 56 SNP MPs get us indy?
How would 59/650 British SNP MPs get us indy?
How would stopping Brexit and installing a Labour Westminster Govt get us independence?
I’m all ears, explain please.
If not now, when? is the cry.
Having been a strong believer in waiting for the right opportunity I’m not sure this is now it. This is two minutes to midnight and it ‘appears’ like we’re out of options. The political landscape is exceptionally volatile, any campaign is likely to lurch back and forth reacting to Brexit related events. We could end up with Scotland’s independence being decided because of a particularly strong day for Unionists at WM. Waaaay too much risk.
The urgency is primarily due to the ticking clock and the very real chance that Holyrood will be neutered if Brexit goes ahead.
But, who knows? With hindsight, it seems that our best chance to date was about a year ago when things were calmer, May was on the slide and Yes support was solid.
NS may now have to put everything on red and spin the wheel (but not before the GRA legislation has been fully implemented. Let’s get our priorities sorted eh?).
The Chase is what Wee Ruth’s constituents do to try and find her doing s surgery.
She picks up £60k for the job she doesn’t do in Scotland’s parliament.
Patience is a virtue for sure.
Give Bojo and the Tories enough rope and they’ll hang their Unionist support up here in Scotland.
Brexit will be a complete disaster with higher food costs, limited supplies of food and drugs, high
Tax tariffs on items we import from Europe, more expensive holidays and greater queues at passport control, Million job loses and a one sided Trump Trade Deal inc the first steps in the NHS.
This will all be well developed in 2020 and there will be a great deal of pain and suffering.
Ideal for knuckle dragging Unionists to vote for independence and freedom.
Proud Cybernat. 3.25
Scotland has never had democracy in the Union and if we get independence its final. What you invisage would mean that there would be referendum`s` every 10 years or so, in and out of the union which would be calamitous for our economy and would make Scotland a laughing stock.
There has been too much of playing fair and being reasonable while the other side use every trick in the book and despise democracy.
The rev is right in what he says and those who are part of the wee knitting circle on this site need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Apologies barpe.
I tried 3 times to outwit predictive text to get your name right but it still got the better of me.
Your Saturday reminder
We’ll need these for #indyref2
https://www.gofundme.com/f/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes/share
@McDuff 8.42pm
‘…those who are part of the wee knitting circle on this site…’
The Francis Gay syndicate?
https://apple.news/ACY4JWlktT-euv7DsTxZzhw
Just look at some of these photos from London
Apparently it’s okay to drive an armoured vehicle a Saracen down the busy streets of London wearing civilian clothes
It’s a protest at soldiers being charged with murder for shooting unarmed people in the back in Northern Ireland during “the troubles”
Can a soldier ever commit a crime when they shoot someone ? In any circumstances ? I would say yes but I’m sure some disagree.
It would be wrong to let soldiers shoot whoever they like whenever they like especially during civil war and it’s civilians they are shooting
Again I think some will disagree
The reason I’ve posted this is that I think it’s another example of the British unionists crazy intimidating behaviour
Hi Robert.
“If I was the SG, I would be instructing the civil service to quietly prepare for a go-it-alone IR2, and make sure that the folks in London got to hear about it.”
If that, or something like it, happens, then great. We’re sending mixed messages and keeping the opposition guessing.
There are parallels here with what the Democrats had to do with Trump, which was proceed with de facto impeachment inquiries for months without announcing them as such, in order to keep the GOP guessing. Then when the right moment came, strike hard and fast, no messing about.
Is this NS’s style? We should know soon enough. Maybe her reputation for straight-talking is the best possible cover for such a sleekit strategy. Fine by me.
—————–
Kenny J says:
“I thought, as some on here aver, that Ms.Sturgeon was keeping her plans to herself.”
It was a strange moment. “Yes, I’m open to the possibility. I’m open to several possibilities” seems a better answer, at least for now. It would have committed her to nothing, and avoided annoying Yessers.
I reckon we need to have a national conversation over the next few years to make us ready to create the right kind of country we want to live in, one without racism, antisemitism, neoliberalism, nuclear weapons, fossil fuels, meat eating, sugary drinks; we need mike small and gerry hassan to write a new constitution for us, based on queer theory, halacha and the vagina monologues.
– and once the SNP have the correct hexa-decatuplet-locked mandate, we should ask for a section 30
gird up yer loins for the early 2030s boys!
“ScotsRenewables says:
28 September, 2019 at 8:29 pm
Mist001
OK, how do you propose we achieve independence? ‘Sturgeon’ has done more for the cause than anyone since Salmond.
What have you done?”
I’ve done more for independence than you’ve ever done. I fucking voted Brexit even though I knew it would be detrimental to myself because it was obvious to a blind mans dog that Brexit was the best shot at independence that Scotland would ever have.
In short, I put my country before myself.
Again, which is more than you’ve ever done and would likely ever do.
I have not read all comments so this point may already have been made. I share many of the concerns expressed about the the SNP approach to a second independence ref – in particular the need for a Section 30 “agreement”. That said, given the level of support that exists at the moment, triggering any sort of referendum / definitive vote on independence before the UK has technically left the EU would be stupidity on stilts.
In 400 years, the English Establishment has never been so threatened, nor so unstable.
They are well capable of recognising the signs of the times, and of reading the writing on the wall.
They know their time is at an end.
Propaganda is their last resort.
So they send the BBC and the Unionist Press into battle.
They know they are finished without Scotland.
6 th of April 2020 my suggestion for Indyref2. If there is one ( just put that in to try and cheer up my fellow indepence supporters that are of the glass half empty variety). If we win on that date then I think we will have our glasses full to the brim.
mist001
Surely if we had all done what you bravely did – “for your country before self” – and voted for Brexit the whole argument that Scotland was being dragged out of the EU would never have given us the main excuse for demanding out of this union.
Yea, yea, gie us peace!
Imagine Norway, one of the top three wealthiest countries in the world, as an English Colony, with all it’s incredible oil and gas wealth going directly to Westminster.
That is precisely what Scotland means to the English Establishment.
Ah. More divisionism from Wings. We have been endlessly told that we will be having a referendum before the end of 2020 or earlier if need be.
Have we reached 2020 yet?
It’s really very interesting reading independence supporters repeating and repeating unionist distortions.
Awfully helpful – to the unionists that is and to those trying to destablise the SNP at the moment and undermine it.
Here’s a little puzzle. What would suit the unionists best? Alex Salmond found guilty of the charges against him – or the charges against Alex Salmond dropped?
Agree with Cubby. April 2020 (the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath.
@barpe
You lot still don’t get it, do you? You claim to want independence but you can’t even give yourselves a basic education. Well, let me help you with that.
You have been spoon fed a LIE. An absolute lie, that Scotland is being dragged out of the EU against its will and you all swallow that hook, line and sinker.
Scotland has NEVER been a member of the EU. Ever. So, how can it be dragged out of something of which it has never been a member of in the first place?
Just to be clear, Scotland has never been a member of the EU and by the same token, neither has England, Wales nor NI. The UK as a whole entity is a member state, not the individual nation states within.
You’ve been fed, and swallowed, a lie.
Further, suppose Sturgeon and her cohorts are successful in stopping Brexit and the UK remains a member of the EU? What then? Does Sturgeon announce Indyref2 and say ‘BTW, it also means that we’ll be out of the EU’.
The ONLY way for Scotland to remain a part of the EU is to remain a part of the UK, so take that to the charlatan Sturgeon and ask her what she has to say about that, because as far as I know, nobody, not even the MSM has raised this point with her.
I’d certainly be interested in hearing her excuse for that one.
It’s OK for him. A lot of us might not have ten years.
I’d settle for a 50% + 1 result.
I can understand them wanting a solid majority but at the end of the day it’s about winning, not the size of the margin.
wull @ 19:54:
Absolutely, wull. That’s when most people engage with the issues that otherwise they ignore for more directly-appealing stuff. That’s when (if you’re astute) you finally cash in on all the background hum of affairs that people have been trying to ignore but which have been quietly seeping into the consciousness anyway.
This thing about “knowing the outcome of Brexit” is a bit of a distraction, though. We won’t know the outcome of Brexit for a decade or more. The Withdrawal Agreement doesn’t decide the outcome of Brexit, it just decides the preliminaries of exit, principally the financial bill and the mutual standing of resident citizens. Nothing whatever about trade except what’s needed to maintain the GFA.
What Nicola is waiting for, I think, is the final realisation of the “No-Remainers” here at home that Jo Swansong and her ilk are trying to sell them a pup – an invisible pup – and they are going to have to choose between UK and EU. And she understands the English situation well enough to realise that, no matter what she does to try to steer them in a wise direction, they are hell-bent on a kind of unstoppable self-harm, completely regardless and disdainful of us here who disagree.
The longer these shenanigans in London last, the easier it becomes to convince former Noes that we can do far better for ourselves. It’s a war of attrition, and the one who lasts longest wins.
Nevertheless, as Stu rightly says, there comes a point when you have to act and lead. That’s not a counsel of despair, it’s the polar opposite. A counsel of despair is whimpering in a corner always afraid to come out and put everything to the test.
There’s an election in the offing, and that’s where it starts. I’m sure we’ll see a full-on effort that will command the support of every possible voter. No quibbles, no Nirvana-quibbling, no operations out of the Cummings black book allowed to disengage us.
And once that one’s won, see where it goes thereafter. We’re climbing a mountain, and it’s step-by-step upwards. One at a time.
‘Scotland has NEVER been a member of the EU. Ever. So, how can it be dragged out of something of which it has never been a member of in the first place?
Er…so who constitutes the UK? Currently we represent 1/2 of the UK as it was originally Instituted…Scotland and England via the Treaty of Union I believe ( and don’t forget Wales and the province of NI,)…Or how are we going to dissolve this perfidious Union otherwise?
Mist001 @ 21:50,
Another desperate attempt straight out of the Cummings black book of disengagement (as I just mentioned).
It’s you that doesn’t “get it”: we here have seen off far better than you.
@Mist001 (9.50) –
A lot of folk with very different views comment here.
So who did you have in mind when you wrote ‘you lot’?
Mist001 at 9.50
Hello.Can I help? Are you on the wrong bus by mistake?
@Lochside
Well, you become independent obviously. Look. Brexit happening makes it a whole lot easier and favourable for independence BECAUSE Sturgeon and the SNP won’t have to explain to the voters that independence means Scotland playing no part in the EU. That’s one less argument to overcome.
That’s why Sturgeon and the SNP are playing you for fools. Sturgeon, Joanna Cherry, Blackford and the rest are hell bent on stopping Brexit and if that happens, the only way that Scotland can play a part in the EU is by remaining a part of the UK.
Do you think Joanna Cherry has any intention of challenging the legality of a section 30 order with as much enthusiasm and gusto as she did challenging article 50?
Of course she won’t, otherwise she would have done that a long time ago.
These people have no intention of delivering independence for Scotland and the sooner people wake up to that fact, the sooner Scotland can move to independence.
EVERY independence supporter should have voted Brexit and anyone who didn’t should hang their heads in shame.
Ian Brotherhood @ 22:20,
Dave McEwan Hill @ 22:22,
Thanks gents. Better observed and far funnier than me! (Though you do prove my point.)
@Cubby
Between April 2020 and September 2020
That’s my information also and I don’t think anybody believes Mike Russell tells lies
@Mist001 –
Something tells me you didn’t come here hoping to make a good first impression, perhaps with a view to establishing new friendships?
Mist001 :’ the only way that Scotland can play a part in the EU is by remaining a part of the UK’.
Your logic eludes me.
So if we had all voted Brexit in Scotland as you suggest…England and Scotland would be ‘better together?’…and out of EU…Scotland and our Imperial masters in unison…..just in the way that it appears that we are about to do so imminently and as one common UK unit?
I and others who are fed up with the SNP are so because of the completely opposite reason: we wanted to stay in the EU; we voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU; but we are being dragged out unconstitutionally, without a stand up fight, by our SNP Gov, NOT asserting our Sovereign right to remain in defiance of said colonial bullying gangsters. Not because of any cockeyed dependence on the emerging neofascist English State.
This is Better Together Bullshit by any other language I’m afraid.
Mist001
What a strange argument.
That every SNP supporter should have voted for Brexit and that all the SNP hierarchy are against Independence.
Well, that’s convinced me. Party card torn up. Boris is right.
Now reality, which has escaped you.
Scotland voted 62% Remain so the FM is obliged to pursue this route.
However Brexit is still most likely to occur in some form, thanks to English votes, so the SNP will be in a strong position to show that they did everything they could to fulfil the wishes of the Scottish voters but now they have a solid mandate for Inderef2.
The road ahead is clear. Scotland will vote YES this time.
Mist001
Obviously a misnomer. Should be Pist001.
@Ian Brotherhood says:28 September, 2019 at 2:54 pm:
” … Okay Mr Peffers, we’re all ears…”
I’m so sorry that your big ears are a problem for you but it is my opinion that even those big ears of yours are not actually your problem. It is your small brain that is the problem.
You are well aware, as must be every regular on , what my opinions are so it is utterly a waste of time my relegating them. Which is why I now sometimes don’t even bother reading Wings.
In any case neither you, I or Stu get to choose when the referendum will be run. What, in my opinion is a very boog thing.
It’s an odd point of view to say Scotland should have done what England wants to prove Scotland wants Independence from the thing we agreed with
Heading for the SNP national conference next month, I simply cannot get my head round all the resolutions that have absolutely nothing to do with independence and worthy as they are, at this pivotal moment of history it should be about indy and campaigning. I suspect most attending will really be there for Nicola’s speech and nothing else.
This conference should be a rally of moving forward to returning to being an independent country something the SNP seem to avoid talking about as if we had never been independent.
After 50+ years in the SNP I am tired and need action but while not throwing caution to the wind, the leadership needs to up the game and the talk and the rebuttals BIG TIME.
I agree with everything Stu has said in this article.
@Ian Brotherhood,
I didn’t come here expecting to make friends, I came here because the Rev is serious about independence, he talks a lot of sense, makes good points, calls things as they are and is a good, engaging writer.
@Fireproofjim
Scotland took part in a UK wide vote and were fully aware of that fact, so you can’t start bleating afterwards that Scotland voted to remain because as we all know, Scotland is still a part of the UK. It’s a daft, strawman argument. Do none of you approach independence with any sense of rationale? ‘We want independence, facts don’t matter to us cos we’re speshul!’
@Lochside
“So if we had all voted Brexit in Scotland as you suggest…England and Scotland would be ‘better together?’…and out of EU”
Well, I hate to break it to you, but that’s EXACTLY the way it’s going to be played out. You maybe missed it but my argument was that by voting for Brexit, that would be one less argument for the SNP to overcome, that an independent Scotland would be out of the EU. That was one of the sticks which Better Together used to beat the SNP with, remember? Brexit would have made things easier all round. What I never imagined in my wildest dreams is that I would see the SNP fight to prevent Brexit and thus make their job more difficult. Absolute madness.
@Elmac
Not Pist001, I don’t drink and don’t take drugs. My only vice is cigarettes which the SNP want to ban completely in Scotland by 2025 or something. Democratic right enough.
Now, is that everyone happy? Now I can fuck off to my bed, OK?
Nite nite.
@Robert Peffers (11.07) –
Cheers for responding.
It was well worth the wait.
😉
The best chance for independence is a NO DEAL BREXIT. What are the SNP campaigning for?
So lets say the SNP is successful in getting the UK to Brexit with a deal (thereby making Brexit more palatable), how does that help us?
Would someone in SNP hierarchy explain?
Oh you’re hard….Lol
Its at times of crisis that the truth of things emerge.
What do you see now? What is being done? What are the apparent priorities? The truth is right in front of you. Drop your long held bias, stop emoting, start thinking and try to see with fresh eyes
“Ah. More divisionism from Wings. We have been endlessly told that we will be having a referendum before the end of 2020 or earlier if need be.
Have we reached 2020 yet?”
Seriously? Okay, name your bet. If we have an indyref before 1 Jan 2021 I’ll never have been happier to pay someone money in my life. Pick a figure.
@ Footsoldier…just so you know my comment at 11.26pm was NOT meant for you though it appears after your comment…just so you know…Lol….was meant to appear after someone’ else’s comment…timing is everything and I failed……Lol
“Scotland has NEVER been a member of the EU. Ever. So, how can it be dragged out of something of which it has never been a member of in the first place?”
This is a really silly bit of semantic hair-splitting. As is the idea that independence means being out of the EU. That’s just not how the EU works in reality. It doesn’t want anyone to leave, and it certainly doesn’t throw people out who want to stay.
In the last three years, the UK has become like scrambled egg.
What has happened because of Brexit cannot be reversed.
The ‘United Kingdom’ can never be the same again.
What will happen in the future, only time will tell.
But the Union ‘shell’ has been cracked open, and is now in bits.
As a rule Unionists don’t like scrambled egg. But, over time, they will grow to like it.
@Mist001 –
Aye, okay, goodnight.
But I hope you will come back.
I don’t claim to understand your viewpoint but you shoot from the hip and that’s appreciated.
😉
Rev. Stuart Campbell at 11.36
Exactly.The notion that the EU would not very strongly want to have the country with most of Europe’s oil and gas,most of the fishing grounds and a strategic command of the N Atlantic is and always has been absurd.
As for the bet I’d need to do a crowdfunder.
Joe @ 23:32,
Oh Gawd, no sooner are we rid of one then here comes another. It must be a shift change.
Footsoldier
A three day conference purely as a single issue rally from a party that has been in government for the last 12 years would be a tad odd. There are a lot of issues, like climate change, that have to be discussed by every party. Even the Tories won’t spend three days talking about Brexit.
@Mist001
Your comment that Scotland took part in the EU referendum fully aware. Not really, only one MP from Scotland voted to have a referendum on EU membership, we were railroaded into the vote by MP’s from England. No matter who Scotland returned to WM we were forced to take part, perhaps boycotting the vote would have been a better option but somehow I don’t believe it would. If you had stated it was a consequence of voting No in 2014 then that would be valid.
Dave McEwan Hill
Regarding avoiding a border between Scotland and England, which you said was the reason why the SNP so oppose the UK’s EU-exit:
Remember this Wings article? (from July 2018):
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-divided-kingdom/
——————————————————-
As for the SNP opposing Brexit cos Scotland voted Remain. I wish that were true. They did for a while , then capitulated, surrendering Scotland’s sovereign decision to Remain cos they lost MP seats and took fright, (or tried to make the best of a bad situation), depending on your point of view. I would say the former.
The SNP then accepted the UK is the member state. The SNP accepted UK Parliament is sovereign and UK Parliament vote for Brexit.
The SNP accepted Scotland leaving the EU but, as Brexit is undefined, tried to argue for Single Market / Customs Union Brexit. The “Norway Deal”.
The SNP wanted a part in the negotiations, the UK Govt chased them. The EU humoured the FM. Croissants and coffee before giving her the polite bum’s rush oot the front door.
The SNP then flipped again and went for Eu-Ref2 or so-called England’s People’s Vote.
Labour has flipped so many times it’s hard to keep up but for now they also back an extension and EU-ref2. And negotiating a deal, which deal? Nobody knows.
The SNP accepted EU-Ref2 on the same terms as EU-Ref1: England decides, Scotland follows.
So, that’s where we are now: The SNP fighting for UK Parliamentary sovereignty and campaigning for a Labour PM and England deciding Scotland’s EU future (take2).
So, basically it’s either Hard Brexit or we’re back where we started over three years ago: uncertainty.
“As for the bet I’d need to do a crowdfunder.”
I make bets with my own money, not Wings money. Pick a figure.
Here’s a tweet from ‘Clem Fandango’ (@ScotiaIndyref2) approx 1 hour ago –
‘Back in 2012, Alex Salmond thinks it’s time to go for Indy, based on 28% YES And builds to 45%. Here we are, with the latest poll at 52% YES and the SNP won’t even kick-start a 12 month campaign……wot the fuck is going on here?’
Is that ‘fair comment’, or what?
Can I please put in a request to Britnat headquarters to bring back the simpleton Rock and his hilarious forecasts. He was so much fun. Some of the recent ones are just not acceptable,
My passport says I am a European citizen. I live in Scotland. So while Scotland may not be a member state of the EU I am still being dragged out of the EU against my will and Scotlands will. Anyone who states otherwise is in my opinion either a pratt or a Britnat or both.
I still agree with the site owner about one thing – no deal is still my forecast. Pity thepnr is not hear to tell me I am wrong.
Clint Eastwood “play misty 001” for me. Great film
I may have got the sequencing wrong!
Still Mis001 looks a bit like Brian ferry’s grandad.
My take on this post without specifying in detail each point is that I agree with most of it but obviously by definition disagree with some of it.
The key point is the reference to Labour and promising to abolish the House of Lords for over 100 years. That is correct but it is hardly an apt comparison to the SNP failing to do something next year or by early 2021. Next year and 2021 are still to come and go. No evidence is presented to justify a conclusion that it will not take place in 2020 or 2021. Now the site owner may have evidence but it has not been presented therefore it is only an opinion until evidence is presented.
On the other hand Scotgov ministers state that it will happen next year and the civil service have been preparing for an independent Scotland since 2017.
In summary, it seems fair to me to criticise politicians for breaking a promise but very harsh to criticise them for not doing something in the future. So unless the site owner has insider knowledge or can see in to the future it is his opinion. It must be noted that he does have a good track record of forecasts on political matters.
I think the First Minister has played a blinder over the No Confidence vote. Labour and tories don’t know what to do and lib Dems gone silent.
Over to them!
Hamish100 @ 01:38,
Y’know, I think you’re right. And NB: this was the SG/SNP on the front foot. It was even first item on the English Home Service (aka R4) lunchtime news Saturday.
I’m liking. More of this please!
Cubby @ 01:31,
I think the point is that Autumn 2020 will already be too late, let alone any time in 2021. I refer back to Nicola’s Bute House speech of Spring 2017. We have her solemn promise to give us a meaningful and timely choice, and there is an existing mandate for such choice which is likely to become a significantly-enhanced quadruple mandate before next Jan is out. (Seriously, how much more “mandate enhancement” does one need?)
The actual date of Brexit is still somewhat uncertain at the moment, true, but I’m still taking that promise as a given, and I don’t see why anyone would expect it to be abandoned due to inordinate and utterly self-defeating delay.
Read this comment on Going Down a Bad Road at the end of the post and thought it deserved another airing in case people didn’t see it , hope WULL disnae mind
Wull
27 September, 2019 at 9:55 pm
Thank you very much, Robert Peffers, @ 7.13. ‘Maybe the drive for independence is not via Westminster but via the courts.’ Nice one. Absolutely. It’s a matter of justice, after all – not simply political acumen, or tactics. Just justice, for everyone concerned. Including both countries.
Yet, not uniquely through the courts. The battle is being fought on several fronts simultaneously. And being won on all of them. This is important, because these fronts are all interconnected.
As I understand it, when a member state wants to leave the EU, that member state must respect its own constitution both when making the request to leave, and when negotiating the detail of how it will do so, and with which consequences.
If, through the courts, it could ultimately be proved that the UK is not / was not respecting its own constitution, especially in respect of Scotland, when it exited, then its exit will be as null and void – even in the eyes of the EU – as was Boris Johnson’s prorogation of Westminster.
In that case, the only way the English Brexiteers could ever have their cherished Brexit would be for England to become independent from Scotland (with Scotland thereby becoming independent from England). If England wants Brexit, England will have to break up the UK. Because England simply CANNOT constitutionally and therefore legally overrule the will of the Scottish people (62% in 2016, and now growing) to remain in the EU.
An English government – but not a UK one – could legitimately arrange for England to leave the EU. A UK government CANNOT constitutionally overrule the sovereign will of the Scottish people. If it attempts to do so it will be acting against the Scottish constitution. That, however, would be illegal, because the Scottish constitution which is an integral part of what originally constituted and still constitutes the UK, and it is still in force. The Westminster parliament CANNOT overrule it.
It (the Westminster parliament) CANNOT legally overrule, abolish or ignore one of the elements which constitutes it, and on which it was supposedly founded. Even if it HAS INDEED, as we all know, frequently ignored the will of the Scottish people – and even did so when it was first set up – whenever it has done so, it has been acting illegally.
WE know that it was a sham from the beginning, because all the evidence from 1707 shows that the Scottish people did not acquiesce in what happened, and did not agree with it. But even when decades and centuries onward, for a certain period of time (e.g. during the 19th and some of the 20th Century) it may have seemed as if the Scottish people did acquiesce in the UK Union that had originally been imposed on them against their will, the Scottish constitutional principle still remained that the people are sovereign in Scotland.
And in instance after instance, including very recently, even Westminster has acknowledged the ongoing validity of that basic constitutional principle. It has done so for the simple fact that it CANNOT do otherwise.
WE KNOW these things (or should do), but the world at large – including the EU – generally doesn’t.
Why don’t they?
Because England, and English-dominated Westminster has sold the world at large a dummy. Not just a dummy, but the very big lie that the UK = England, and that the English Constitution (in which parliament was sovereign) = the UK constitution. They have even sold that dummy – that downright lie – to themselves, and to their own people.
Now that all the lies are beginning to come undone, they are all unravelling before our very eyes, one after the other. This is Scotland’s hour. This is the moment when the world, including the EU, is beginning to realise how phoney and fraudulent the UK parliament actually is (and, in fact, always has been). In its pretensions to be something which, constitutionally, it isn’t.
That is, contrary to what they have always been told, the EU and the world are beginning to see that the entity they know as the UK, unlike other political entities, has two constitutions, not one. And they are BOTH VALID, and BOTH OUGHT to be and, legally, HAVE to be respected when the UK acts. As, for instance, when it is attempting to LEAVE the EU.
If the UK government tries to do that while contravening one of the two constitutions which underpin it (the UK), it will be acting unconstitutionally and illegally. The EU CANNOT legally make agreements with individual politicians or political factions (e.g. Boris and Co Unlimited) who contravene the constitution(s) of the political entity they purport (i.e. pretend) to represent.
As the court battles ensue, it will become more and more evident to the EU (and to the world at large) that a UK government which seeks to take the WHOLE of the UK out of the EU CANNOT actually do so. If it attempts to do so it is NOT representing the will of of the Scottish people which remains sovereign in Scotland which, as one of the two component parts which constitute the UK, all UK governments are bound to acknowledge and fully respect.
What is also becoming apparent, and ought to be increasingly noticed by the EU negotiators, is that the UK has finally spawned an Executive (Boris & Co Un-Limited) which is clearly illegitimate on all fronts. The EU therefore CANNOT negotiate with these people … Because, as a supposed, but actually illegitimate, ‘executive’ they (Boris & Co) do NOT represent anyone. Above all, they do NOT represent the political entity that joined the EU as the ‘UK’.
That is to say, this Executive is acting UNCONSTITUTIONALLY in regard to BOTH the constitutions which constitute the UK, and remain operative within it. The recent brou-ha-ha has demonstrated that Boris & Co, the pretendy executive that wants no limitations placed upon its powers, are not respecting the English constitution. They illegitimately closed down the legislature to which, as executive, they are constitutionally accountable. They did this in order to remain unaccountable to anyone other than themselves, all of which is totally unconstitutional.
The ‘Gina Miller’ case demonstrated this, even to the English themselves (or at least, large swathes of them). The English constitution, in which parliament is supreme and the legislature holds the executive to account, had been contravened. The action of Boris & Co had therefore been unlawful, and the prorogation utterly null and void.
It was therefore the Gina Miller case that grabbed all the headlines in the English-dominated press. But underneath that Gina Miller case lay the Joanna Cherry case.
The ruling of the Court of Session in the Cherry case had demonstrated that the same Boris & Co (the would-be unlimited and unaccountable ‘executive’ of the so-called UK) had also acted unconstitutionally, and therefore unlawfully, in Scots law as well. The Scottish judges had found that Boris & Co’s prorogation of Westminster had been undertaken for a purpose that rendered it invalid.
What all this increasingly suggests is that Boris & Co are a ‘rogue’ executive, which does not respect either the sovereignty of the people in Scotland or the sovereignty of parliament in England. Overriding both the constitutions of the two countries which constitute the UK, it is claiming for itself the ability to exercise powers which it does not constitutionally or legally possess.
Whether in regard to its own member states, or other states outside itself, the EU can only negotiate with constitutionally legitimate governments comprising those who do legally represent the people they purport to talk for. In view of what has been happening in the courts – and will continue to happen there – it must be beginning to dawn on the leaders of the EU that they CANNOT negotiate with Boris & Co. Any deal they make with him (Johnson) and his pals might well be open to challenge in the courts. Both in the UK (before both the Court of Session in Edinburgh and the UK Supreme Court in London), and in the highest European court as well.
Even if Johnson does get a ‘deal’, the courts might have to declare it invalid. And if he crashes out of the EU without one, that crashing out might be declared invalid as well. In which case the UK will still be a member state of the EU.
Even if he gets a deal and Westminster approves it, that need not be the end of the story. The deal could be valid in England, where parliament is sovereign, but not in Scotland, where the people remain sovereign. With the EU at last aware of the true nature of the UK’s constitution – aware, that is, that the Scottish constitution is different from the English one, that both are fully operative in their respective places, and that both have to be respected – their own (EU) lawyers and leaders will realise what Johnson’s ‘deal’ actually means, legally speaking. Namely, that England has left the EU, but not Scotland.
Maybe this is what Ian Blackford means, and has meant all along, when he has stated so often and so categorically that ‘SCOTLAND WILL NOT BE FORCED OUT OF THE EU AGAINST HER WILL’. The EU’s own insistence on respecting the respective constitutions of each of its member states makes such ‘being forced out against their will’ an impossibility for Scotland, even legally speaking, so long as the Scottish people continue to vote to remain IN the EU.
Yes, indeed – as Robert Peffers surmises – maybe it will indeed prove to be ‘through the courts’ that Scotland will achieve her independence. There is a logic in all of this.
If Scotland wants to stay in the EU and England wants to leave the EU, it seems to be a logical inevitability that the UK automatically breaks up. That is what the two constitutions operative in the UK automatically – that is to say, quite simply, of themselves – bring about. It just happens. Scotland goes the EU way, and England goes its own way.
A simple ‘bye-bye’, and no hard feelings required on either side. Both sides get what they want. As in all farewells, there might be a tinge of sadness – and why not? so there should be, we are only human after all – but no need for any grudge, since no one is being denied anything, and both are gaining precisely what they preferred and opted for. This parting of the ways is the opposite of one nation imposing itself on another, and should be celebrated in a friendly way, as a liberation for both.
Recognising the differences between us doesn’t have to make us enemies, and never should. That’s what adults do. Adult relationships don’t depend on agreeing on everything, but on recognising each other, in our difference. And even celebrating that difference.
Of course, we have quite a way to go before it comes to that. Even in terms of emotional maturity, all round. But come it will, … eventually!
I hope so …
I do not think the importance of stopping The SNP from watering down their priorities in the manner the Labour Party has, can be overstated.
I can see no benefit to anyone who is not employed directly or indirectly by the Labour Party, in having a Labour Government
It may appear divisive to criticise the SNP bosses for tardiness
at this time but the unpleasant fact is; The SNP has been for some time, a magnet for the same type of careerist weasels and fifth columnists who once flocked to the then omnipotent Scottish Branch of the Labour Party.
These self-seeking creeps are not Socialists any more than their counterparts are Nationalists and every day that independence is delayed their numbers and influence will increase and an SNP “Clause 4 moment” becomes ever more likely.
Being a perpetual major player the devolved parliament is a safer option than gambling your career on a leap into a tartan-trimmed unknown (especially if you are allergic to tartan).
An independence Party that doesn’t want independence?
Prevention is better than the cure!
Perhaps the SNP might be attempting to show up the entire Westminster political system for what it is by smashing it to bits Brexit or no Brexit then turning to Scotland and pointing at it and asking folk, well what do you want to do stay with that or go
The Lib Dems won’t vote with Labour because they’re Tories and the Tory rebels won’t vote with Labour and even some of the Labour don’t want to vote for themselves, and they’re all afraid to vote with the SNP because it’ll cost them Scotland and it’ll show them all up for the liars they are
Meanwhile in Northern Ireland there’s another group of people over there who are preparing for the Tories and their Brexit in an entirely different way and it won’t be with *we dont like you* banners
That’ll change what’s on the news in about six weeks time
Rev Stu
I’ll make you the following wager
If either there is an indyref2 OR Scotland is Independent before 2021 then you pay me 5 ounces of 99.9% Silver. Coins of any Country will do. Otherwise I owe you the same.
Payable in person over a beer at the Glasgow YES bar when I am over there visiting my Grandchildren.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
28 September, 2019 at 9:44 pm
Ah. More divisionism from Wings. We have been endlessly told that we will be having a referendum before the end of 2020 or earlier if need be.
Have we reached 2020 yet?
SNP Gaslighting.
When, and by who’s authority, has a 2020 Referendum EVER represented any meaningful defence of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty and EU Membership?
2020 is irrelevant if we defeat Scotland’s unlawful and unconstitutional Brexit, and if we don’t establish ascendancy for Scottish Sovereignty, your 2020 vote will be decreed constitutionally unlawful by your sovereign “UK” Government.
OT but has anyone noticed that any quiz programme with the word ‘celebrity’ bunged in front has been dumbed down to such a degree that a nine year old could answer , and that brilliant chasers who are obviously winning suddenly find the simplest question demands long term cogitation followed by an asinine answer?
Now that the ex Scottish conservative leader has practised answering puerile questions perhaps she could now answer those on postal voting , dark money , big burly men ,vicious dogs chasing pregnant women, the association with musical marchers and many more.
11:21pm
We “had a UK wide vote”
And there’s the ‘tell’… I fold 😀
Iain Mhor at 0658pm,
Yip. Bit of a giveaway, really. Totally agree.
On other matters, the indy march is on in Edinburgh next week, starting at Holyrood, at 1PM, and heading via the royal mile and George IV bridge up to the meadows. Should be a great day. Who knows what might have happened by then!!
I think the march finishing at the meadows is a good idea, but I hope the polis have a plan in place to handle the numbers they expect – it’s going to be HUGE.
The SNP approach reminds me of the Broad Front strategy adopted by Eisenhower in 1944/5 against Nazi Germany – a war of attrition; wear them down everywhere and keep them guessing.
Ignoring critics and getting on with it with the confidence that his was the correct strategy.
As apposed to Monty’s wish for a narrow thrust (which would not have worked).
Eisenhower won the argument and won the war on the western front.
Well said Michael, agree with every word . It will have to be the long slog , but hopefully more five and not ten years . The wheels are well in motion , keep building on that , and yes, it will have to be nearer 60% , the result will have to be substantially for yes to be fully acted on .
There will be no Brexit. Scotland will be Independent soon.
Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Get another to vote as well. Ignore the dissenters.
The SNP Gov are carrying their mandate out to the letter.
To Stop Brexit and stay in the EU (68%). Then to have another IndyRef (52%+) and rising. One campaign at a time. A good strategy. Or both could be lost. Good management. Prioritising, The demographics changing all the time. Support increasing.
One campaign at a time. The SNP just keep on winning. Support increasing. On to Independence.
Join, support and campaign. Do not leave it for others. Everyone do what they can. The good people are winning. The more who vote and help. The sooner it will happen. Those who can get out to make it happen. It has never been so close in history. It is within touching distance. If people vote for it. An S30 can easily be obtained through the Courts and on to Indy. Scotland is growing away in any case. Going in a different direction. The SNP Gov are protecting Scotland from the unionists excesses. Until the final push. A better, prosperous Indy country. To make the world a better place. Just do it. One day at a time.
Scotland would be Independent now. Without D’Hond’t and STV. Imposed by unionists to benefit them and try to keep control. They are just corrupt beyond belief. The 3rd rare losers wins but they can still be out voted by enough people. Not to let them in.
Every Indy bet put on has been lost. The bookies know the score. Good analysis better than the Polls which are often wrong. The piper pays the tune. Corrupt. Lost YES to win (2014). Lost over 50 MPs 2917. Lost IndyRef 2019? Lost Aberdeen 5 = 0. The losers win. The bookies always . A mugs game., The odds shortened for a winning Indyref Ref soon. That’s what people need to know.
When the English courts agreed with the Scottish courts that’s when the SNP should have made their move then the world would have known the truth but maybe no, not having a say in the media Joanna Cherry and her team have hardly had a mention.
Beyond The Flag
Olympism is a philosophy of life, exalting and combining in a balanced whole the qualities of body, will and mind. Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism seeks to create a way of life based on the joy found in effort, the educational value of good example and respect for universal fundamental ethical principles.
The goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practiced without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play.
When athletes are found to be cheating as their only goal is winning at all costs/at any price then correctly there is universal condemnation and they are stripped of their prize and the prize is given to the clean athlete, who performed to their very best without breaking the rules.
These ideals as we have all seen, are being tested every single day in sport, it is no longer just the most talented, the hardest working who are rewarded, it is the ones who have the biggest financial backers.
This commercialisation is not lost on anyone and truth be told it is a big turn off to most and then when some Mr B Johnson types (Swinson, Davidson, Murphy, Dugdale, Rennie. etc. etc) come along with their performance enhancing media ways, we easily recognise the signs of the obvious financial doping, the cheating.
and when the national broadcaster actively promotes these cheats (and promotes white sugar taking as good, but brown sugar as bad) one can only question their motives.
When you see a Saltire flying don’t just see the flag of Scotland, see a torch and beacon of hope that we can compete and compete clean, see beyond the flag.
Long time lurker at the threshold, first time poster…
@Rev
‘…This is a really silly bit of semantic hair-splitting. As is the idea that independence means being out of the EU. That’s just not how the EU works in reality. It doesn’t want anyone to leave, and it certainly doesn’t throw people out who want to stay.’
Eh?, Semantic hair-splitting?, we’re in the EU as the UK, the name on the figurative dotted line on all those treaties is that of the UK, the legal entity that is the EU deals with the legal entity that is the UK. (ok, I’ll be using the UK here as the usual shorthand for United Kingdom of Britain & Northern Ireland)
Suppose Brexit doesn’t happen, suppose Indyref 2 does, and the vote finally swings ‘yes’.
Now, being a cynic, the immediate scenario would be ‘well as the Brexit vote prove, voting yes actually means no, as we, your political masters know what’s better for you and got away with that one, so, fuck you, rebellious Jocks, eat more Westminister shit….’
But say we actually do finally formally end the Union, I’m assuming by this point the English people have been fed so much anti-Scottish shit that the base level of antipathy they normally exhibit finallly reaches the point where they want out of it as well (and here’s a thing for any unionist reading this, having worked down south for the better part of 20.years, to the average member of the English public, unionist or not, you’re still a {insert favourite negative epithet} Scot)
So, ideally, i’ll wake up one happy morn and the Union is over, thank fuck, like the bad dream it was, and even though i’m not a drinker, I’ll party hard that month, and then I’ll be ‘getting the popcorn in’ as they say as the next round of fun begins….Jockxit from the UK, and Ukxit, not just from the EU, but from the planet, and I’m not expecting either of those two processes to be either quick or painless.
Just taking the main aspect here, come the glorious day, the legal entity formerly known as the UK is now a Norwegian Blue, and, just like in the sketch, there’ll have to be a certain amount of legal pretence by the EU, the UN, and every other bugger on the planet with a vested interest about the continued vitality of said particular dead parrot as far as all legal treaties etc. entered into and signed by said entity are concerned, either that, or they’re all null and void the femtosecond the Union is dissolved and a whole shitload of trouble starts.
Despite impressions, It is not a given that any party who had entered into any sort of legal agreement with the UK would, even if it were legally possible for them to do so, be in position to automatically honour these treaties with the Scots and whatever the English decide to call themselves and their remaining possessions prior to any renegotiations, thanks to political considerations.
Aye, the EU might be like the Borg, and love assimilating everything it can, but unlike those lovable fictional rogues, it still has to be seen to be doing so both legally, and for internal consuption in member states, acting politically in a manner consistent with their big little book of rules of the game, which helps maintains the increasingly thin veneer of ‘member state sovereignty’ and doesn’t appear to encourage or reward any naughty ‘seperatists’.
If Brexit happens, we’re out of the EU, as legally part of the UK we’re not in a position to apply.
If Brexit fails, and the Union dissolves, we’re out of the EU and, just like the English, we’d have to reapply for membership..which, of course a hell of a lot of them don’t want to do.
Agree wholeheartedly with all the rev says.
I have long since ceased to follow any of the punditry here re indyref2 in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 etc. Also ceased to care about the SNP role in Westminster. Brexit will never bottom out – it’ll still be playing out after i’m long gone. The current support will not be sustainable.
However, the obvious saying came to mind, as a huge part of the whole scottish football analogy/ mythology –
‘LONG BALL, GO FOR IT!’
Sunday National good again.
Excepting the article over “Top Scots” attacks Uk for Brexit crisis.
The top Scot?
Baroness Liddel – ex Labour Party secretary and bag handler for the corrupt Maxwell
The Rt Hon Campbell – bit of a runner Lib Dem
Lord Foulkes– so much I could say but would still be too nice for this guy. Ooh mentor for dugdale- see what I mean
Mark Lazarowicz ex labour leader Edinburgh council
Henry McLeish — no not yet — later for Indy
Baron Robertson– yes him . New job with a ferry company , ex NATO, Minister of Uk defence – son married to the Smiths — yip that lot.
Yes there are Independence names too but it looks like this has been slipped into the National in-tray by the Herald.
All of the above have held Scotland back. All would prefer 50 years of Tory rule and Johnson than Independence for Scotland.
Don’t know about some of the independence supporters *cough* above but we’re heading up to Edinburgh early on Saturday to meet other members of my clan at Holyrood Park for ‘The Big Yin’.
It promises to eclipse all Indy marches so far in terms of numbers and will be a welcome shot in the arm for our movement at this critical time.
It’s a pretty illuminating sight on here, all this breastbeating and counsels of despair. Irrespective of motive – exasperation, self-aggrandisement or malicious intent, these witterings serve no useful purpose.
For right now it all comes down to trust – trust that the SNP leadership is conscious that the party and its members are only a part of the independence movement, trust that it will hold IndyRef2 when the swallows are here next year, trust that diplomatic work with the EU – both public and behind the scenes – will provide a flight path to Scottish EU membership after.a YES vote.
I trust the FM and IB’s judgement – and the fact that Joanna Cherry will be main speaker at Saturday’s rally is very significant. The message? United we win.
Much as I like Michael Gray I can’t wait ten years.
The boss wants Indy ref 2 next year and I’m good with that. She is playing brilliantly during this omnishambles, she is now showing up the rest of the opposition and hopefully attracting new converts from among their disappointed followers. Constant friendly fire from WoS is hardly helpful.
I have erred on the softly softly approach. but I am persuaded by this argument. on top of the encouraging signs from mates that where previous no voters, I think the time is now.
as addictive as it is, i’m getting tired of it all and would love to move on to either contributing to an indi Scotland or finding another interest to fill my days. I cant think of a scenario where I wont always vote Yes. but I can think of a gazzilion different things to do with my time.
Get yer wallet out folks. its time we put our money where our mouths are.
There’s a hint on the Rev’s Twitter feed re the First Minister
That – if true – would certainly see a cat trajectory in the direction of pigeons as far as the indyref2 debate goes on here.
Sturgeon to be gone soon, anyone?
@Kangaroo,
Don’tknow about the Rev ,but I offered such a bet two days ago. I have £100,which statex we will not have a referendum even by 2022. I will pay whoever takes the bet. I will make it easier. No referendum by 2023.
I am very confident now I will win.
Giving Goose says:
29 September, 2019 at 8:05 am
The SNP approach reminds me of the Broad Front strategy adopted by Eisenhower in 1944/5 against Nazi Germany – a war of attrition; wear them down everywhere and keep them guessing.
Ignoring critics and getting on with it with the confidence that his was the correct strategy.
As apposed to Monty’s wish for a narrow thrust (which would not have worked).
Eisenhower won the argument and won the war on the western front….
Long time since I read about Normandy, and while you’re correct, and I’m sorry, I forget which General it was, but one of the German Generals, (and I think it was Von Rundstedt), said Montgomery was absolutely right, and with German defence stretched and in such disarray, a narrow thrust towards the Rhine would have been unstoppable and successful. There was nothing to throw into the gap, and the war would “perhaps” have finished earlier with the Western Allies securing more territory and none of casualties in the Battle of the Bulge.
Obviously we’ll never know if he was right.
Norman Martin at 9.46
Well said
Codswollop
A great word. Never knew what it meant till I read some of the stuff on here .
“The SNP should have made its move when….” etc etc etc.
Never any sensible indication of what that “move” might be of course,because the SNP is not in charge of events. It is however cannily watching its opposition implode and its support climb, the support for independence climb and is has determined to follow the only sensible route to that through an agreed referendum. Anything else is as described by the word above. Everything however is determined by circumstance.
The SNPs present position is entirely sensible and coherent.
These are the words of an “SNP drone” (as described by another scintillating contributor here).
I am not however uncritical of the SNP.
The “snap” General Election effort was pathetic and completely wrong. I am still digging leaflets we couldn’t find anybody to put out from it into my garden. It knocked us back years in reality.The vetting procedures for the council election were an utter disgrace. SNP has never got to grips with its massive membership which it was never prepared for and has adopted a top down attitide which is unhepful. I have never been slow to sturdily express my misgivings about lots of stuff to the SNP at various levels.
There is however only one sensible way to independence. An agreed referendum. And only one organisation able to lead and fund it. This we are promised by next year. I have no significant information that tells me this is not going to happen.
Unless somebody has a better idea……….
Wings twitter seems to be floating the “Sturgeon will be gone by March” mantra.
Just what the Indy movement needs at this moment, another divisive rumour. Not.
Mind you, the attacks she has been getting lately from what is called the ‘Main Indy supporting site’ must make her want to get out. Losing her before Indy I think would be a disaster – maybe the cry of “The constantly effing Rev for FM” will become the new site mantra. But the Britnat rumour mongers will have won, anyway, so what the hell.
I cannot believe that the SNP leadership, which includes sharp legal minds like Joanna Cherry, have not considered the possibility and ramifications of going to court to challenge the S30 requirement. Now, not being privy to SNP decisions I can only see two reasons for not having gone to court already:
a) They have consulted and taken legal advice on the likely outcome of such a court case and have been advised the likelihood of a positive outcome is not in their favour
or
b) they do in fact have a plan to go to court and have been busy preparing the ground for such a case. After all, if the recent Brexit court case has shown anything, it’s that the Scottish Courts, and indeed the UK Courts, can be induced to grant a fast decision on matters of extreme political importance.
On point b, and taking into account the writings of people like Gavin Anderson, who argues that several court cases, including cases as late as 2006, endorse the view that the fundamental principles of Scots constitutional law are not necessarily the same as those of English constitutional law, it could in fact be argued that the recent court case pursued by Joanna Cherry et al was an absolute blinder – precisely because the result in the Scottish courts upheld this view, and then the result in the UK Supreme Court appears to have validated this viewpoint, and set case precedent. It may, in fact, have been a serious consideration in pursuing the case, which on the fact of it appears to be counter to the SNP raison d’etre, in the first place.
This is important because it reinforces the Union -State narrative in law, which is, in the words of Gavin Anderson:
The third view sees devolution as a renegotiation of the terms of Union on the part of the sovereign Scottish people, and hence sees the Scottish Parliament as a legitimate representative of the Scottish people in the course of any further renegotiation in which the interests of the Union as a whole and of its various parts are put at issue (the union state narrative)
As Anderson points out, The choice between these two options might turn in the end on whether the Supreme Court sees itself as a court interpreting and upholding a single and unified corpus of constitutional law, or as one recognising and seeking to reconcile the somewhat different constitutional traditions of the various jurisdictions of the UK.
The Supreme Court EU Brexit case has now answered this pondering – and it showed that the Supreme Court went with the latter interpretation, and that bodes well for a court challenge to the requirement for an S30.
Here’s a link to the article by Gavin Anderson I’ve quoted from:
https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2012/01/31/gavin-anderson-et-al-the-independence-referendum-legality-and-the-contested-constitution-widening-the-debate/
Wings twitter seems to be floating the “Sturgeon will be gone by March” mantra.
“Rumours”, “Sources”, the usual pish.
The very stuff Stu excoriates when it’s in the press and he’s doing an article on it.
People really need to stop making comparisons between Scotland and Catalonia. Catalonia isn’t a country (and never has been) and the Spanish constitution doesn’t provide any legal path for it to become independent. The international community adopting the same stance towards Scotland as is does towards Catalonia is a ludicrous proposition.
Does anyone on this forum actually believe that Stu has no contact with SNP politicians at all ?
Does anyone on this forum actually believe that Stu is not given information by SNP insiders?
Does anyone on this forum actually believe they have more inside information than Stu?
I think at least you should start to listen to what he is telling you in a roundabout way.
This is Stus livliehood. He could pander to all your hopes and aspirations no problem, and take the money.
However,that is not his style. He is giving you a clear signal something is not rjght, in spite of the fact it may alienate some contributors,thus reducing his income.I think you should at least think about the situation.
If Sturgeon is going I can only hope its because the allegations against Salmond are untrue. I find it hard to believe that Salmond would have taken such a stand off position.
I was surprised to see Kenny Macaskill wanting to return as a MP as I thought he left front line politics due to not seeing eye to eye with Sturgeon. Perhaps his return is a sign that Salmond will return or a more Salmond like figure will be in charge.
Assuming Sturgeon is going and Salmond won’t be able to return I think we are either looking at Joanne Cherry or John Swinney. Angus Robertson could be a good shout if he’s interested in returning.
Either way it now looks like either we have an emergency Indyref in response to a no deal brexit by end of this year or more likely 2022.
I remain optimistic. Deep down after indyref1 result I suppose I knew we would lose it, but at least the ‘war’ had started.
If we get to the end of 2021 without an Independent Scotland I will truly understand what defeat is, accept the result and zone out. I think our enemy knows this and will run down the clock as a strategy.
What gives me hope is Brexit on October 31st and the Indyref2 date being announced on 1st November – maybe for Feb 2020 when it’s bloody freezing and some of the auld no voting bastards stay indoors.
One of the two partners that makes the United Kingdom isn’t happy and the people here are sovereign, so just announce it and make it happen. No point asking for a S30, they (our perceived masters) aren’t going to give it, so we might as well avoid that debate right there.
Luck is simply timing and opportunity – all we need now is a pair of balls.
Quite an interesting comment an hour ago, which could be taken in context – or outside of it.
https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1178242203401035776
“The condescension of elements of the Westminster commentariat knows no bounds at times. @theSNP is perfectly capable of thinking through the implications of various scenarios.“
Wings was at one time a happy place for those who want Scottish independence.
But it has developed a suicidal tendency with a bunch of people regularly telling other Scottish independence supporters that they are british nationalists and not Scottish independence supporters at all, how dare they , self righteous fools .
Then we have those who are Scottish independence supporters who don’t like the SNP telling those who do like the SNP , that the SNP are doing nothing for Scottish independence , again I say what a bunch of self righteous condescending fools who do they think they are ? The SNP is without any doubt whatsoever the biggest strongest most important Scottish independence group , supporter , success that there has ever been , take away the SNP and you have nothing left that is strong enough to fight against Westminster that is a fact.
Then we have those who are Scottish independence supporters who don’t like Nicola Sturgeon and keep telling others who do like her that she is sitting on her hands doing nothing for Scottish independence or is in cahoots with Westminster to keep Scotland under the control of England , again I say what a bunch of self righteous fools , who do you think you are ?
There is absolutely zero evidence that the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon are not fighting for Scottish independence , yes that’s right , zero evidence.
The SNP and Nicola Sturgeon May not be every Scottish independence supporters favourite but you know what ? Get a life give yourselves a shake and stop making out that you are some sort of expert that had the magic answer that everyone else just doesn’t see.
YOU DONT.
There are always different ways of political activity, all those who support Scottish independence should get behind the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon or b….r off and start your own party , we have just about reached the zenith of the Scottish independence campaign it’s within our reach ,we can win it FOREVER if we stick together.
It’s too close to THE TIME of RECKONING to cause splits and decry the leaders , all you are doing is helping the enemy , you have had five years to state your opinions , get over yourself and get behind the leader and THE ONLY SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE PARTY.
Sick of know all’s who when scrutinised know no more than the rest of us
my! my! some new bloggers online saying the First Minister is going at some point. How very true. We are all mortal.
Whats the real reason? Labour and lib-dems are in a hole . Do they support the SNP “No confidence” in Johnson bid this week?
and for the other lot, lets divert from the tory conference, Johnson being investigated by the Police etcetera.
The FM will decide when it is time to go or the SNP membership will.
Not the unionist’s or those I’m not voting SNP (I believe in Independence “but” brigade
“Sturgeon” getting a lot of flak on here from the duty trolls.
Well let me just say that I love Nicola Sturgeon.
I love Nicola Sturgeon because she doesn’t put me in fear of my life with plans to introduce a US style NHS. I get a very expensive drug that keeps me alive. My US relative says if I stayed in the US I would either bankrupt or dead.
I love Nicola Sturgeon because she is not going to take away my European citizenship, with all it’s many benefits.
I love Nicola Sturgeon because she doesn’t have my neighbour fear being dragged from her home a 5:30 in the morning and put in detention before being deported to a country she hasn’t been in for 20 years, losing the business she has built up whist here.
I love Nicola Sturgeon because she isn’t stripping powers from my country’s parliament.
I love Nicola Sturgeon because she doesn’t maintain a nuclear deterrent that I’ve lived within 10 miles of for most of my life. She wants them to take it away. I want them to take it away.
I love Nicola Sturgeon because she doesn’t starve sport in my country of investment, thus ensuring failure. Like tennis in Scotland getting 1% of U.K. funding despite supplying 99% of the success. Or Rangers football club getting less U.K. television funding than Burnley (no offence) despite being the 18th most supported club in the world.
I love Nicola Sturgeon because she doesn’t have the state broadcaster wipe my country’s existence,and that of its party of government, off the map, whilst pumping out anti Scottish propaganda designed to undermine confidence in my country. The result is young people so drained of their self belief that they can throw away a 3 goal lead with 20 minutes to go in a World Cup finals.
I love Nicola Sturgeon because she doesn’t systemically seek to close down my country’s economy. Like closing Longannet with a vital 20% generation capacity, whilst subsidising similar generators in England. Or paying companies to move their fish processing to Grimsby, the Brexit fishing hub. Don’t start me on the banks. Or the Post Offices.
I love Nicola Sturgeon because her response to dissatisfaction in Scotland isn’t to create a regiment of trolls with the objective to undermine democracy in the nation, with every technological tool available. Throwing in their psyops wobblers, creating doubts, undermining leaders, encouraging extremism and creating dissent. The actual embodiment of the rottenness of the “precious union”
These are just some of the reasons why I love Nicola Sturgeon.
Nothing has happened to change my opinion. The referendum timing is critical.
So far so good. It will come.
Terry Callachan @12.14 Excellent post and my only cautionary note is we do NOT know who or why people post here. Undoubtably there are those from the other camp who only wish to sow “fear and despondency”.
Independence is now inevitable.
Black Donald@ 12-32
I’m with you in all that you say.
When did a blogger become the FM of Scotland?
United we stand divided we fall!
I love Nicola Sturgeon for her sane , dignified , intelligence.
@ Black Donald 12.23pm
That´s one of the best posts I have read during the six years I have been visiting this site.
I am going to print out and commit to memory.
Well done!!
I was there when Mr. Mc Fadden leathered it. Parc De Prince.
Wot a night we had.
Oh and as an SNP member, if we don’t go next year, I’m offski. They can forget it. I’ve got folk in Oz who’ll put me up.
Over to you Nicola. I’ve got the faith, have you? Skelp it.
If Nicola steps down for whatever reason, it could be a bonus.
There is too much power concentrated in Mr and Mrs Sturgeon / Murrell. Too much power concentrated at the top of the SNP in just a few people.
Such a concentration of power is never good for democracy and is putting all the eggs in one basket.
I just hope the door is opening to the SNP again accepting elections as a means of at least initially establishing the sovereign Scotland indy mandate ( a long held SNP policy which the FM has been adamantly against re-introducing).
Nicola Sturgeon would surely walk into another top job.
According to Google there are still 61 colonies around the world. Did they remember to count Scotland in the list?
So if anyone is looking for a very experienced and very competent colonial administrator, she’s the woman for the job ( am I allowed to say woman or is it “non-gender specific person” under the FM’s gender policies?)
Colin Alexander
you don’t let us down now you have confirmed yourself as a Non SNP supporter.
We would never guess
If you want independence SNP X 2 IS THE ONLY WAY.
Well said Terry Callachan and Black Donald.
We must all stick together, this bickering is getting grim. There is only one party that can get us over the line, the SNP. So support them and indy and ignore the trolls and dissenters.
So far the Westminster parties are falling apart in front of our eyes, every day they get worse and more dysfunctional. The SNP together with the indy movement are turning the screws ever more tightly, and with every turn another fault line appears in the enemy lines. Next up is the nobile officium court case to force the extension and despite all the uncertainty, I think the EU will grant it as they don’t want to be seen to be throwing the UK out. What do you think the establishment will do once the extension takes them into the EU tax haven legislation? They are popping blood vessels already and are getting desperate to deliver Brexit. Another little delay gives them something else to panic about, and they will.
We are in sight of the finish line and we need the whole team pulling in the same direction.
Boris Johnson is supported by billionaires who are betting on the financial markets and deliberately working towards the destruction of people’s livelyhoods all over the UK
Now we’ve got people trying to make bets on the destruction of Nicola Sturgeon and Independence for Scotland
These two sets of people are no different to each other for betting on human life and they disgust me
To behave in this way over this issue shows no interest in Independence for the people it only shows contempt for people and self interest in winning a bet to prove they’re right which is the very thing every Yesser accuses the Unionists of, and they’re right to do it
Most folk who can go out and march for it, leaflet for it speak the words of hope and right for it, the people who speak the words of gambling money on it don’t care about it, they only care about their own big headed self important cringing misery
Self determination for your country shouldn’t be put up for anybody to bet against or bet against the people who are trying to win it for all of us, for none of those people are doing it for the money
The FM could have any job she wants, she’s still here, we have QCs Lawyers Surgeons Doctors Business people in the SNP who could undoutably earn more money not doing what they’re doing for the country yet the betting cringing cynics keep battering and chipping away the good people of Scotland’s hopes and dreams over their desire to upset annoy frustrate and anger so they can be proved right Ha Ha
They’re sick fucks the lot of them with no moral compass whatsoever
Hamish100 @1:13
sigh
I am an SNP member (for most of the reasons Terry Callachan points out at 12:14 – although TC is in danger of sounding like a know it all!), but if we get to HR 2021 it’ll be SNP/Wings.
I trust in NS to have a strategy before then though.
Iain Mhor @6.58am
You may want to note that Terry Callachan on WGD claims it was a “UK wide vote” and goes to great lengths to justify the comment. I wonder why he has not expressed the same views on Wings? Or perhaps there are two Terry Callachans.
My view on this matter can be found @12.55am on this thread.
Dr Jim@1.18pm
Spoken from the heart with passion.
@ Kangaroo on 29 September, 2019 at 5:35 am
“Payable in person over a beer at the Glasgow YES bar when I am over there visiting my Grandchildren.”
The ‘Yes Bar’ no longer exists.
Hamish100
Correct. I am not an SNP supporter. I support independence. I vote SNP when I think it will help independence.
My nation and her struggle for freedom from the British Empire is what’s important.
Nicola has been a good servant of that cause for decades but, she’s not the right person for leading our cause. She’s become too cautious in the role of administrator of devolution / colonialism.
No disrespect to Ms Sturgeon but leadership of a freedom movement against the British Empire requires different qualities than the qualities Ms Sturgeon posses in quantity.
The (don’t trash-talk the) SNP thing – how can I put it – you are being driven on a long journey inside a smart car and you stop 1 mile from the terminus. Given how far you have come successfully you do not then take a massive shit all over the seats, break the windows etc … but it is legitimate to ask : “why have we stopped?” – and – “we start again soon, right?”
I am hoping the SNP’s squeaky-clean, play-it-by-the-rules propriety is a ruse and they will – “having their hand forced” – go for a “wildcat” referendum run by an external, impartial, international group, once the S30 request gets knocked-back for the umpteenth time.
The current “meek inaction” is a masterly stratagem; but only the SNP high insiders can know this. Belief in this is akin to Pascal’s Wager regarding God, I would admit.
Terry Callachan @ 12.14, Black Donald @ 12.32 and Dr Jim @ 1.18, very well said folks. Thank you. I’m absolutely scunnert wi a’ the back biting that goes on here sometimes.
Used to be a site where we could have a civilised debate and a bit of fun, not anymore. No wonder that we seem to have lost a lot of posters. I only lurk now, but I reckon I might give it up as well.
Hope you are all reading the Revs twitter feed. He knows something
Nicola insists no indyref till Brexit is settled.
Brexit, is primarily a focus of British Empire nationalism. The talk now is of Eu-Ref2 – which the SNP supports.
Regarding Indyrefs for Scotland, Ms Sturgeon accepts indyref2 may not be the final say. Democracy is ongoing. Not a one-off or double event.
Even if there is an Eu-ref2, Who’s to say that will be the final say? If Remain won in an EU-Ref2, I don’t see the Leavers saying, won one and lost one. 1-1 draw. That’s it settled permanently.
Has Scotland to be forever held in slavery while Ms Sturgeon waits for British Empire nationalists decide and re-decide our future (including EU membership) ?
The people of Scotland should be the people making the decisions for Scotland. That’s what sovereign countries (normally) do, except in Scotland.
I paraphrase –
“Great comment, well said. ‘Nicola’ is clever, pure of purpose and heart and doing everything right.”
“But the SNP seem preoccupied with Brexit and we are no nearer to Indy then 5 years ago. I don’t like some of the SNP policies, why do I have to vote for them?”
“You are not real Indy supporters, if you disagree with the current strategy and tactics of the SNP. You must vote for them no matter what. If you keep voting for them, they must give us Indy because….Treaty of Arbroath… Claim of Right…I find your motives impure and I have invented biographies for you that fit with my world view of things”.
This is a summary of every thread on this site. There is nothing more to be said.
Pro-indy Catalonian politicians are prepared to suffer imprisonment for the cause of independence. Are we?
To dash some cold water over some hot air that’s going around, here’s the challenge.
Bearing in mind that the minimum time from declaring Indy Ref 2 to actually holding it, is perhaps 2 months, going back over the 5 years who would have liked to announce on say January 14th 2019, Indy Ref on say March 14th?
Or September 5th 2018 for the date of November 5th 2018?
July 18th 2018 or any year, for Indy Ref 2 on Sept 18th?
Well? Would any date have not interfered with some election, referendum, resignation, Tory / UK leader campaign, or Brexit date / shift of date / postponment of date / who knows?
Over to you. Come up with a date in the past, and JUSTIFY IT.
Colin Alexander @ 2:48pm
“sovereign countries”
I’ll let others argue the merits of our current constitutional situation, but….
If we are a Sovereign people (as I believe), then we, the Sovereign people have elected to remain in a union (2014) then at subsequent opportunities (elections) not voted for any party that has stated that a vote for them is a vote to end the union.
We did elect, 3 times since then, a party that has said “vote for us & we’ll ask the people again in the lifetime of this parliament”
I feel & get the frustration, I want to live in a normal country, like, from since I was old enough to understand.
I don’t know how the referendum gets set, I don’t know what the result will be, but what I do know, is that when (if) a referendum is held, the Question will be the same, the franchise will be the same. As others before have eloquently put, each persuade 1 non or no voter to vote yes & it’s won.
I not with pleasure that you have reigned in your xenophobic comments about English settlers. Hope that your penultimate sentence acknowledges that the people of Scotland are those who choose to live here & are enfranchised in our attempts at democracy.
Panic rising and rising within the ranks of the No supporters and the disrupters, because when all they have left is to falsely endow the SNP Scottish government with powers they don’t have then shout loudly to everyone about how the SNP aren’t using these non existent powers so they’re letting everyone down is pathetic
People are the SNP power and the more of us there are we win
and it’s how we’ve been winning and will continue to win
Democracy isn’t easy you have to want it badly enough to keep standing there, you lift your hand, you’re as bad as them and that’s what they want, you keep facing them down because they only know the politics of division and anger and they seek to force that upon you
The disrupters have no moral character no ethics no humanity, they revel in their own bile filled world of misery and hate and want to impose on us to break our ranks and push us out of the way, the nearer we get the harder they try
It’ll take an awful lot more than this lot to move me
Truth is we don’t know what the SNP strategy is, we don’t know what plans they have. We don’t know how things will pan out next week re. Brexit or VONC. We don’t know what will happen with the Alex Salmond court case.
What we do know is that there are sound political, economic and moral reasons why Scotland should be independent. What we do know is that it is not better together, hasn’t been for a long long time, probably never was.
What we do know is that we can make a difference. What we do know is, if we’re in Edinburgh on Saturday AUOB that it sends out a signal to the SNP hierarchy that we have an appetite for independence and to the Soft No’s and non voters that it is the most reasonable thing in the world for a country to govern itself.
We don’t know everything but we can all do something. Just been reading a biography of Fr. Alec Reid, Catholic priest who was instrumental in the N.Irish Peace Process. One of his favourite phrases was ‘keep on keeping on’, let that be our motto.
The newspaper review on GMS this morning contained an interesting comment from David Clegg, former political editor of the Daily Record. See Craig Murray’s view that David Clegg, friend of Liz Lloyd, Nicola Sturgeon’s Chief of Staff, was in a position to leak the Alex Salmond accusations.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/08/the-alex-salmond-fit-up/
So he says that journalists know that Labour senior politicians want to delay any GE until the Alex Salmond trial gets underway as they will then have a stick to beat the SNP.
The rumour mill certainly is working overtime today.
The Sunday papers review with Ken MacDonald, David Clegg and Fiona Ross from 1 hr 22 mins in to 1 hr 25 mins 15 secs.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0008wrs
David Clegg hates the SNP with every fibre of his sash
Keith fae Leith
I will gladly praise up English Scots For Yes. I’m full of admiration for them and others of other airts and pairts who have made Scotland their home and support Scotland’s democratic freedom.
In contrast, it saddens me to see Scots and others wrap themselves in the Union Jack, no to support a fitba team (well done the ‘Gers winning 5-0), but to celebrate their nation and themselves being subjected to colonial rule by the British Empire.
And celebrating the British Empire’s abuse of the Presbyterian faith by “divide and conquer” tactics.
Willfully ignorant of the history of the United Kingdom’s attempts at taking control of a faith that is founded on the basis that it is not subject to any govt control.
———————————————————
There is a clear conflict of interest where the FM of the devolution administration is also leader of the SNP and also the de facto leader of the indy movement.
It tends to lead to a situation where a wrong call in the indy campaign threatens the job as leader of the SNP and leader of the Scottish Govt.
It’s too much power and too much responsibility for one person. Too much hope and expectation from a nation on the shoulders of one person.
So, to be fair to Ms Sturgeon, I’m no surprised she has tended to be more cautious than decisive about indy.
It now seems patently clear to me – under PM De Piffle, the UK will be leaving the EU on 31 October, with No Deal. He has been put in there by The Establishment to ensure their precious offshore banking scam can continue. He will deliver.
Parliament can pass all the Bills they like designed to prevent No Deal, De Piffle will ignore these and charge straight ahead. And the Opposition will not get their Vote of No Confidence and General Election through.
Those Independents and Change MPs who quit the Toerags will not risk their sinecures until they have no choice, the Labour Party will never unite behind Corbyn and Posh Spice and her Lie-Dems will back the Toerags – again, it all points to No Deal.
For months now, Ian Blackford has been insisting: “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against our will,” well, I think the time is now upon us whereby he has to put-up or shut-up.
I hope Joanne Cherry has found some legal means whereby the SNP/Scottish Government can petition the Court of Session to dissolve the Union, or to – perhaps via Nobile Officium – force the granting of a SEction 30. But, failing this, I don’t see what can be done to justify the pledge of not being dragged-out of the EU against our will.
This will happen in 32 days’ time. It is clearly time for the SNP to: STOP TALKING AND ACTUALLY DAE SOMETHIN’
I’m probably about the same age as that guy but starting your shpiel with one god awful cliché! Get real, Scots have been ‘patient’ too long, time they got restive, irritable, very, very, annoyed and acted as they really cared.
Less of this tedious, wee Scotch lawyer nonsense.
Young people usual go for instant gratification. Think this vlogger is old before his time,
pipe and slippers Gray?
It’s good to get angry.
@ Marie 2.42: please don’t stop commenting. That is exactly what “they” want. I do sympathise with what you say – I don’t look at the site with the same keen enjoyment as I used to but after all the analysis by the Rev is still important. And we need the voices of all such as yourself.
Perhaps we will meet in Edinburgh next Saturday and get a boost!
Bon Dias Troops.
Sturgeon gone by March? Aye and Palestine will be free from Israeli genocide.
Nicla “hold, hold”
The Yoons still don’t get it.
If she is gone by March, it’s because we will be Independent.
SIMPLES.
Marie, ignore the morons, keep posting.
@Marie Clark
Nil Carborundum, and keep posting!
The thing about an online forum is that it’s nothing without its below the line posters, who may or may not agree with anything above the line – or with other posters. If only sycophants of any point of view are allowed to post, or post without harrassment, the forum is dead as a Monty Python parrot.
Suppressing contradictory opinions is just so Animal Farm. Whoever does it.
Dr Jim@3.22pm
Well said as usual.
Thought I would respectfully point out that surely Scotch is a drink as in Scotch whisky not in wee Scotch lawyer. In my experience most Scots do not say Scotch lawyers big medium or wee sizes.
Salmond affair/SNP getting beaten by the media stick!
Please tell me that every Scottish Independence supporter expects this very scenario. The wife and I regularly discuss this very topic. Ever since it came to light, we have expected this. The Auld heids back home are now very wise to the garbage media, message to Yoon village. Must do better, but then again, they can’t.
Indy 2 Aye
Personally, I think there’s a load of misdirection going on. It has the Unionists in such a tizzy, poor dears, they don’t know whether they’re coming or went.
Go for it!
Scotland has never ever been Better Together in the UK and never will be. Probably out of the EU it will be worse.
For those posters who keep saying we do not know the SNP plans sorry but that is wrong. A referendum in 2020 is the stated plan. Now you may not like that or you may not believe it but that has been stated by the Scotgov on numerous occasions. They may also have other secret plans B C D etc etc but I repeat it is wrong to state that there is not a plan. So please stop saying this.
Dr Jim @3.48pm
“David Clegg hates the SNP with every fibre of his sash”
Sometimes I think Clegg posts btl on Wings.
I know something but I’m not telling.
Well knock me over with a union flag that’s some evidence to back up any position.
Let’s try that out.
I know Boris Johnston is really a Russian spy. I know something but I’m not telling.
Believe me I know something. Honest he really is another posh boy communist spy. He is going to run away with his secret lover Sturgeon and defect to Moscow where they will live happily ever after. Nothing beats a happy ending.
@Cubby,
You actually believe the Rev is lying when he intimated he knows what is going on re the Sa!mond court case?rd
Why are you finding a liar?o
I think he knows a da mn sight more than you do. About anything.
Jackson Carlaw on Sky.
Jewish people in Scotland are terrified of Jeremy Corbyn and it’s Nicola Sturgeon’s fault or something twisted like that.
And he continues about moderating language or something else twisted like that.
What a nasty, nasty creature he is.
To ALL the people who say Wings has gone downhill or Stu has been nobbled and the site is RIDDLED wae doomsayers or trolls , ask yourselves why you first came to the site and the reasons it is still the no 1 site for political and media excoriation , this guy has worked endlessly and tirelessly to expose and destroy the combined assault by british nationalists of all persuasions against our UNDYING efforts to become a NORMAL independent country
Ask yourself WHY he has written posts criticising the direction of travel of the SNP and their relentless support in attempting to subvert the wishes of the 17.4 million mostly English people who voted for brexshit
Then stop and think how YOU feel when liebour and tory governments introduce policies that are detrimental to Scotland and it’s people ( example 1 the continuity bill ) and many others , I and many others were outraged at that BLATANT interference in the governance of our Scottish Parliament and felt that our government should have challenged the ruling more robustly
Stu and many others are genuinely concerned that the continual fight to subvert brexshit has undermined and delayed our more pressing need for independence and that the SNP are being used as a patsy by liebour and the lib dums
Whether I know about this or don’t know about this it is still fun to gossip and try and undermine the First Minister of Scotland.
Bob Mack says:
29 September, 2019 at 2:42 pm
Hope you are all reading the Revs twitter feed. He knows something
I hope he does as opposed to knowing nothing.
I mean you never know when you could lose a court case or two!!
Still crowdfunding is a wonderful thing.
lol
twat hatter
When the rev and others are members of the SNP I think it would be reasonable to listen to their criticism. As the rev and others on here have no wish to become members and in fact wish to challenge the SNP in an election then you shouldn’t really complain about being challenged.
brexit has been a gift to the independence movement but has to be allowed to pan out.
@Twathater,
Spot on. I have listened for the last three years about Scotland not being taken out of Europe against our will.
Contrast this with the SNP efforts to ensure we will not leave Europe Without a deal.
Those are entirely different aims. Have I missed something?
Yes recently polled 54%. We could be a month away from a no-deal Brexit and a national catastrophe, meaning Yes could be at 60% or higher by the time of the Salmond trial.
If Brexit doesn’t happen England will see fascist riots and God knows what else. All bets are off down there.
I just don’t see support for Scottish independence falling never mind fading away in either of those circumstances.
The person who disagrees with me over indy tactics is not my enemy. Those hellbent on bringing about the above scenarios are.
@Hamish100,
I hope your comment earns you a ban. Your a bloody idiot.
No other way to put it in afraid.
Sorry, I didn’t know it was a members only forum.
Eggs …………………. Basket
@Unionist Media,
Your right. The ground is prepared and fertile ready to sow the seed of indy. Except we have no seeds or farmer to do the job.
All the stars are aligned and yet. Fill in your own ending.
Bob Mack @6:41
you beat me to it!
Forgot, I was there too. In amongst the wonderfully sporting French.
Handshakes all round exiting our seats.
What a day
@Defo,
Let’s make the independence vote SNP members only. That will get them 120,000. Doesn’t seem enough somehow
The SNP Gov is carrying out it’s mandate to the letter, according to the voters wishes. Keep EU membership and stop Brexit. (86%). Another IndyRef (52%+ and rising). The best time to have another IndyRef is when it can be won. Demographics rising. One Campaign at a time. Or else both could be lost. Good management is to prioritise in any organisation.
Scotland is growing away in any case. Going it’s own way. The SNP (Gov) mitigating.
Johnston is an absolute embarrassment. A total lying imbecile totally out of his depth. He will not last until October. A lazy, lying hypocrite. A criminal.
The National reports that Jacek Saryusz-Wolski MEP, a senior Polish politician who oversaw his country’s accession to the EU, is saying that Poland will welcome independent Scotland to the EU.
Lots of European notables like Jacek have said similar things so why doesn’t the SNP mount a billboard campaign quoting these good people?
There are 6000 Jewish people in Scotland. 5000 in Edinburgh (Tomkins US wife), 1000 in Glasgow.
Even less voters. Electorate.
Not enough voters to be really worried about about Corbyn.
4Million electorate.
@ken500,
So stopping Brexit is more important than an indy vote according to your SNP plan? You are OK with that ?
Some politicians are rather good at multitasking. Oh well.
There is already a billboard campaign. Make a donation and put in a suggestion. They have asked for them.
The SNP members pay a vast amount towards campaigning to help others and contribute to billboard campaign. 120,000 can do a lot but not everything suggested. For 4million electorate
Following the mandate given by the electorate/voters is the responsibility of every political party. Or otherwise they are lying.
Bob Mack says:
29 September, 2019 at 6:45 pm
@Unionist Media,
Your right. The ground is prepared and fertile ready to sow the seed of indy. Except we have no seeds or farmer to do the job.
All the stars are aligned and yet. Fill in your own ending.
————————-
I dunno, Bob. I always expected the SNP leadership to wait until we had more clarity over Brexit before making their move, i.e. after October 31st.
If by this time next year the farmer still hasn’t made her move, then it’s clear we have a major problem. But as things stand, other than the risible GE campaign in 2017, Nicola S hasn’t let me/us down in any way I can get annoyed about.
I think no-deal Brexit will happen, and that it will be a national nightmare that few people alive have experienced before, and I fully expect NS within months to say this is it. We’re on our way.
That nightmare — which may actually involve international foodlifts and medicine drops — in turn will earn us international support whatever specific route she decides to take.
If I’m wrong and you’re right, that doesn’t make us enemies. “Yessers I disagree with are not my enemies” — somebody in Edinburgh next weekend should offer to tattoo that on people’s foreheads.
Bob Mack @6.16pm
Thank you for your comments but I have no idea what you are going on about in your first two sentences. I don’t do twitter which is something I have posted before so I think you have read stuff into my comments that are only in your own mind. Your second sentence does not make any sense to me.
Your third sentence does make sense and I am happy to say that I understand it and I agree.
My post was intended as a general comment, with a small dose of humour, on posting an opinion based on not having any evidence to back it up but expecting people to just believe it. You wrongly interpreted it relating to some specific thing about a court case that I do not think it is appropriate to comment on.
If you are getting worked up about things can I respectfully suggest you might want to take another wee break like the last time you had a go at me.
OT
Not being a Twitter member and on advice from some WoS posters on here I perused some of the Revs feed. Interesting to note the frustration around males playing in female rugby games and refs walking away from the sport as they cannot guarantee player safety. Then I tripped over a comment from someone about the ‘gingerbread person’ sign, in ALL of the schools she had visited.
So, off I went….and found this in the UNs 2030 Agenda (section 20);
‘The systematic mainstreaming of a gender perspective in the implementation of the Agenda is crucial’
Source: https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/post2015/transformingourworld
Now, if that doesn’t make you a goddamn conspiracy theorist I don’t know what will!
ahundredthidiot
Sorry to inform, but every single international political body of any note, charities included, are totally corporate captured, mainly through US hegemony, aided and abetted by London.
As for Westminster, after Blair & Broon, can there be any doubt that it’s tweedle dee/dumb. Iraq?
Our version of Democracy is but a thin veil.
If you want to see who they fear, look towards who gets demonised.
Eck,Nicola, Assange, Corbyn,the Judges ;-)…..
There is a lot of irritation in waiting, I feel it too. This delay has been filled with all sorts of fiction, gossip, frustration, anger & disappointment.
I think the 2017 GE was a chastening experience for our leaders, even Salmond lost his seat. We still live with many fear-filled & quite a few self-centred voters. A conservative country really. If we look at Ireland, 1916 is seen as a turning point, but the rising was a minority interest initially. It was Westminster’s response to it which finally pricked the public’s conscience.
Like Peter Bell I’d prefer a more aggressive approach to Independence but sadly we live in a conservative country. From the last referendum I was dismayed at the lack of passion from a great many voters I encountered, the prevalence of fear. There was no love for the union but there was trepidation at the idea of Independence. Change ? Too scary. It was incredibly disappointing to find so many with no real spark of enthusiasm for their country’s big opportunity. They have had the optimism & confidence beaten out of them through years of managed decline.
Over many years I have learned the last thing these people want is happy, positive SNP activists at their door.
Go to the party, participate, have some fun, meet some new people, take a chance, grab an opportunity ? No thanks, I’ve got the soaps to watch.
They want dour reassurance that there is nothing spectacular planned, nothing exciting.
Holyrood was a long time coming. It arrived, due as much to Westminster failure as to anything else. The pain became unbearable, what harm could change do ?
For me the lesson of history is that our chance will come, as unexpectedly for us as for our opponents, just at it did for McFadden. It feels like it might be a twist in the Brexit road or it might be something else.
Focus on the prize, not ourselves. Michael & Stu are both correct. We must wait, but when the chance comes, out of nowhere, like Faddy, we need to be ready to strike. I’m certain that all the key players know this.
@cubby,
Blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah.
Spend less time ingratiating yourself to some on this site,and more to clarify of thought. Had my break,but reading some of the comments you despair about how they tie their shoelaces in the morning
Meanwhile in the outside world things are getting worse for BoJo:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17935248.boris-johnson-accused-wandering-hands-woman-journalist/
“Boris Johnson denies wandering hands claim by journalist Charlotte Edwardes [the assistant editor of the Sunday Times]”.
I see some folks complaining that the btl comments on here, are negative, or that RevStu’s analysis is wrong or somehow misplaced, but I disagree.
People have waited patiently for three long years of brexit nonsense, constantly getting folk on here, asserting stuff like, ‘nicola’ has a plan’, or that ‘once the Scotgov are excluded from brexit negotiations, then she will act’, or that now we have a clear mandate for indyref2, their is NO WAY westminster will refuse a section 30′, and so on, and so on. I have lost count the number of such somments seen on here.
Since 2016, people such as myself, sat and waited for the Scotgov to assert itself, to ‘take action’, but we waited and waited and waited, and are in fact STILL waiting. It is an utter joke. Instead of the SNP in every interview and on every occasion saying over and over again that the only way Scotland can save itself from brexit, is via independence, instead they talk endlessly about stopping brexit
Every now and then NS will say something vague that sounds good, about independence. A good example is the so-called ‘promised’ referendum in 2020. I have bad news for everybody, NS has not promised a referendum. On each and every occasion ashe talks of ‘wishing’ that their ‘should’ be, or that she ‘would like to see’, or that it will be best for a referendum in 2020′. At NO point did she EVER actually say ‘their will definitely be a referendum in 2020’. Now, I stand to be corrected on that, IF she has done so, more recently, and I wasn’t aware, but I do not think that is the case.
And here’s the point, IF the SNP really mean to hold a referendum in 2020, is it not about time for them to actually call it?? I mean are they going to wait until next year, and tell everyone, just a few weeks before the vote? And then their is the section 30 rubbish. Westminstewr has repeatedly said get tae f***, about a section 30, in the very clearest terms, yet the ONLY person on planet earth who thinks they will give a section 30, is NS. It is nonsense, with stilts on.
I am furious about brexit. Really, really angry, and do not want forcibly stripped of my EU citizenship by England, yet that is EXACTLY what is happening. And here’s the REAL point, the reason I and others are getting so mighty p*ssed off, is that this is being done unbder the watch of an SNP government, that has a cast-iron mandate for indyref2 – and I would argue for just ending the treaty of union and dissolving the current UK.
We cannot just sit back and let this almighty nosnense of brexit be forced upon Scotland. It is unforgivable.
I wholly support REV Stu’s stance and analysis, and I have been posting on here, pretty much since the site began, and on newsnet prior to that. I have read all his posts, and I am sure of two things, firstly he is absolutely committed to independence, and secondly, his political analysis is usually spot-on (even if some folk don’t want to hear it).
IMHO, the Scotgov/SNP leadership need a collective rocket up their ar**s, if they seriously think they can just sit back and wait until 2021. They need to be talking about a rescue plan for Scotland NOW, TODAY, NOT NEXT YEAR and how they plan to get Scotland out of this brexit nightmare. That is their elecotral mandate from the people of Scotland. They will be fools not to honour it.
Ottomanboi
LOL
The Wild Irish … For 800 years we have fought you without fear and we will fight you for 800 more.
The Canny Scots … For 300 years we have waited and shed tears and we will wait here for 300 more.
I’m sure the Proclaimers wrote a song with the title “No more cap in hand”, in fact I seem to remember the lyrics being printed on an SNP leaflet distributed at the Jim Sillars Govan bi-election.
but I can’t find it on youtube … or much evidence of it as a philosophy in SNP circles.
Oh Robert Louis, but you would say that.
Ghillie at 0759pm,
Genuinely not sure what you mean in your comment. Do you agree or disagree?
I am a remainer
I voted remain
I am also a member of the SNP and voted for Scottish independence 2014 and will do so again
I knew at the time of the brexit referendum that it was an all UK referendum
I was confident remain would win easily I thought perhaps 60% or 70%
I was shocked when leave won but I accepted it and I thought to myself at the time I should have been more aware of possibilities but hey that’s my fault
I believe that as the leave side won the referendum they should decide how brexit proceeds
I hate the whole idea of brexit but I do not believe the result should be ignored
I hated the Scottish independence result in 2014 as well but again I did not for a minute think that it should be overturned
If you win a vote you win the right to carry our the plan of action you were elected to do
Whatever kind of brexit we get I will not like it
I just hope it conforms with the good Friday agreement in Ireland
Scotland as a country within the UK voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU but if you honestly thought that it was a Scotland only vote you took part in and not a UK wide vote then I feel sorry for you because you were under the wrong impression perhaps even misinformed.
The Scottish govt have a mandate that says that if Scotland is taken out of the EU without their agreement or if there is some other pressing reason then another Scottish independence referendum will be held.
I look forward to that Scottish independence referendum if we are taken out of the EU by England and actually even if brexit doesn’t happen I hope there is still a Scottish independence referendum on the grounds that Westminster has ignored Scotland’s point of view / opinion so many times that we can only conclude that we are not an important part of a UK / British family
I hope that satisfies your comment cubby at 1.42pm today
At least you have stopped calling me a british nationalist
Great tweet from Almannysbunnet, late of this parish:
https://twitter.com/almannysbunnet/status/1178336498900504576?s=20
@Ian Brotherhood
Thanks. I understand that not everybody will agree with my views and opinions, but they’re as valid as anyone elses.
And I’m going nowhere unless the Rev bans me!
BTW, the clock’s ticking towards a no deal crash out Brexit on 31st October. Westminster couldn’t get a deal sorted in three years, so what are they going to come up with just a couple of weeks?
Someone on another site summed up Sturgeons position on Brexit perfectly recently. When the Brexit result was announced, the cry from the SNP was ‘We want off the bus!!’ Somewhere along the line, that changed to ‘Well, let’s see where the bus will take us.’
And that illustrates the Revs point perfectly. People will become used to Brexit just like the SNP became used to being on the bus.
Col.Blimp IV
This yin?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNCFR8SqioE
Nicola is the greatest politician these ceptic isles has produced in generations,
yes i would lament her leaving us but if Nicola went into world politics she has the ability to make the world a better and safer place,
strength,compassion,intelligence,empathy,humour,
i took my dad (RIP) who was SNP from the 70`s to see her during Indy1 at Craigmount High School and he thought she was fantastic,
he passed away later that year but at least he got to vote for a free Scotland,
so i will always back Nicola no matter what she does or where she ends up,
i certainly don`t have her abillity to forgive ,i am more Old Testament where my Dad and Nicola are/were New Testament.
The UK wide Brexit vote that Scotguv registered objection to as undemocratic (mistake 1 by UK England)
That could never happen in the EU because each country is recognised as a country and each country has a veto
Only a few weeks to go until England’s shit hits the Northern Irish and Scottish fan to get blown right back in their faces
Won’t be long now.
@Robert Louis –
Hear hear.
Politics is so personality-driven and coverage of it so dumbed-down that it’s impossible for any party leader to satisfy both party members and the broader public.
No-one in their right mind believes that Boris Johnson is the embodiment of ‘one nation Conservatism’ any more than ‘Corbyn is just a Communist’. Likewise, Nicola Sturgeon represents many things to different people and she’ll never unite everyone whose primary motivation is Scottish independence. No-one can.
So be it.
Most of us here have huge respect for her and what she’s done. Even the fact that she’s seen-off umpteen Scottish Tory, LibDem and Labour ‘leaders’ who treat her (and the parliament itself) with open contempt is remarkable. She’s maintained the dignity associated with her office and parliament whilst WM has been heading down the lavvy to universal derision.
But her departure – in whatever circumstances – will not stop us.
(FWIW, I can see Big Eck being exonerated and making the Muhammad Ali-style comeback, with NS more than happy to take a personal hit in the process. They are both honourable people and their friendship was forged in a fuckin tough business – who would bet against them having a long-established ‘understanding’ that things might play out as they are now?)
I think the problem right now is that all politics is a mess and unpredictable. This causes frustration for all but specifically for poltical analysts and activists as you have no sense of bearing.
Whilst the expected approach to Scottish Independence is through a referendum I’m not sure thats necessarily the case and I’m even less certain that anyone actually know when the next one will be.
Its enitirely possible that next month after a no deal Brexit and with food, medicine shortages and riots that the political scene changes rapidly. Equally its possible that a No Deal occurs but the recation is not as bad and people just suffer it and the chance reduces.
Also possible that the Salmond trial could be really bad for the SNP and by association the Independence cause but then the wider Yes movement might react by moving Independence away from the SNP to protect it. Also possible that Salmond walks free and comes back to polictical life with a point to proove.
Right now nobody knows what will happen next week never mind at the end of next month so I suspect we’ll all just have to hold our nerve and hope for the best.
@Cubby 1:42pm
Oh, I think I’ve covered that topic before, all good knockabout stuff – I’ve no wish to rehash it. Nor am I concerned about the motives for people posting, or about engaging in ad-hominems, it aint my first rodeo.
If I’m interested in something, I might engage, I might not – the world will turn regardless of my input, or lack of it.
I leave impetuousness to youth, where it rightfully belongs.
Colin Alexander
No, it was a kind of sequel to that one … with a sort of, enough of this cap in hand pish – time to get off our knees theme.
Can’t remember how it went, think they did it specifically for the election.
My memory isn’t completely fucked, I do remember Kenny Mccaskill and Ian Lawson singing “Cap in Hand” at a fundraiser in Govan, with alternative lyrics.
Donald Dewar? Donald Dewar? – NahNah NahNah – NahNa NahNa NAH NAH NAH!
@Mist001 –
‘And that illustrates the Revs point perfectly. People will become used to Brexit just like the SNP became used to being on the bus.’
Fair enough point.
But the Scottish people long ago became ‘used to’ Tory govts (or Tory-Lite via Blair & Co) but we’ve had enough of it. The SNP is only where it is because enough of us voted for a change, and if they can’t deliver it (for whatever reason) that doesn’t negate the seachange in public opinion.
Brexit or not, Scotland will be independent again.
Put it this way – would you bet against it?
Bob Mack @7.41pm
Sorry Bob but still don’t know what you are on about. You seem determined to have a go at me for one reason of another. I’m either too bad or I’m too nice. You are a hard man to please. Luckily that is not a priority for me.
Sorry you cannot just accept that you misinterpreted my words. I won’t lose any sleep over it.
If I’m being completely honest with myself, I shouldn’t even be involving myself in independence or UK politics. I met my wife 12 years ago and moved to France where we have two young children (who are currently dual nationality and with any luck in the future, they’ll have dual nationality with Scotland instead of the UK).
But as the cliche goes, you can take the boy out of Scotland but you can’t take Scotland out the boy and that’s kind of my position. I want what’s best for my homeland and that’s obviously independence and away from Westminster rule, so I am absolutely desperate for independence so that I can finally butt out but Sturgeon and the SNP are making that very, very unlikely any time soon. Steady boys and girls, that’s only my opinion.
So there you go. Anyone who reads this board now knows that I don’t drink, don’t drug, smoke cigarettes, support independence, seriously doubt the SNP and my furure goal is to butt out of politics!
And my nom de plume ‘Mist001’ is simply the first two letters of my first name (Michael) and the first two letters of my surname and the 001 is in case I decide to create Mist002, 003, etc. And I’m no relation to Bryan Ferry! 🙂
Scot Finlayson says:
29 September, 2019 at 8:24 pm
Nicola is the greatest politician these ceptic isles has produced in generations
What has she actually done to deserve such an accolade?
If it is a fact that she will not proceed to independence without a sec 30 referendum and it is a fact that Westminster will not agree to a sec 30 order then it is also a fact that Scotland will never be independent with the current FM as leader.
O/T…
A wee heads up for anyone needing a return bus ticket to Edinburgh from Dundee next Saturday, for the march/rally…
https://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/comment-page-76/#comment-2490482
dadsarmy says: 29 September, 2019 at 7:47 pm
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17935248.boris-johnson-accused-wandering-hands-woman-journalist/
Instructive to contrast the coverage of this in the media compared to the allegations against Alex Salmond.
Nicola Sturgeon is by far the best politician in the UK and is respected everywhere except, of course, in London. While nobody is indispensible, Nicola is uniquely well placed to achieve independence for Scotland. That’s why the PTB will work ceaselessly to get rid of her.
Let’s not assist them in that endeavour.
Of course, I have my differences with the SNP although it’s not impossible that the PTB have engineered those traps for us. Voter apathy is another well known trick they use in rigging elections. Everything that is rumoured about Nicola and Alex and others has to be seen in the light of relentless efforts to dampen enthusiasm.
I’m expecting the march in Edinburgh on 5th October to be a huge demonstration of our resolve to carry this campaign through to success. Hope to see many Wingers there.
I was the one this morning who drew attention to the “whither Nicola” question on the Rev’s Twitter.
My ‘simple’ point was that it threw up in the air the BTL debate about the how’s and when’s of indyref2.
It wasn’t an attack on any individual or party.
Just that if – repeat if – there was any truth to it
Then the Scottish political equation changes significantly.
Obviously the usual trolls and pretenders will leap on such a possibility in order to sing the same old song.
But that does not alter the potential significance.
BOTH Michael Grey and the Rev are way off the mark
Thank God neither is FM
And there are a good few others here who need to hang their heads in shame
Terry Callachan@8.12pm
1. A very extensive post. I didn’t see the bit where you said my son should be able to vote in the next indyref. Until I do see a change of mind from your blood and soil nationalism I will continue to hold the view, as does WGD, that your type of nationalism is not welcome and is exactly the type of opinion that the Britnat media love to apply to all Independence supporters. So if you are not a Britnat then you are doing a fine job of helping them.
2. It was a UK wide vote – same again – the sort of comment that Britnats like to say to deny any mandate for indyref2. Good on you – helping the Britnats cause again. I can just see the headlines – ” Well known staunch independence supporter Terry confirms there is no mandate for Indyref2″. As I said in my earlier post either a Britnat or a pratt would go gown this road. I guess it is a blood and soil Nationalist pratt for you Terry. If you can take comfort in not being called a Britnat I’ll give you that. I will never call you a Britnat again but of course you are in my opinion worse than that. How would you like it if I said your wife was not “the right type of person” to vote in Indyref2.
3. “I was confident remain would win easily perhaps 60% or 70%.” Sorry to break it to you Terry but remain did win 62%. You do tend to get a lot of things wrong but the biggy is your insistence on your blood and soil views.
4. You have also posted your thoughts that violence will happen. Still hold this opinion.
In summary, if you are an independence supporter you are of the type I find unacceptable. I make no apologises for that comment to anyone who thinks we should just shut up and all get on. Terry you won’t like this post but I don’t like your views even if you are an SNP member.
Terry Callachan @8:12
That you thought Remain would win by between 60 – 70% is mind boggling. You clearly were either not paying attention or have little grasp of the reality on the ground.
What else do you think you are way out on?
For goodness sake….
” If it is a Fact that she will not proceed to independence without a sec 30 referendum……”
If it is a fact that my granny has testicles then she will be my grandad.
If it is a fact If it is a fact
For goodness sake read what you are writing. Britnats must be pissing themselves laughing at the state of some people. When it is a fact get bloody worked up.
@Mist001 –
Fair play tae ye – I’m sure many of us here would quite like to be ‘elsewhere’ sometimes.
Can’t be easy, watching this shitstorm from a distance. The natural instinct is to cry out to yer mates to start legging it.
But most of us have to stay here, and some have chosen to stay here. No shame in getting out. FFS, the figures I’ve seen recently re the Scottish ‘diaspora’ aren’t that far off the Irish numbers, and they’re mind-boggling. Collectively, must be in the tens of millions. (Anyone have reliable stats?)
I dare say this place must be infuriating at times, but please bear in mind that less than 1% of WOS readers actually comment. The hardy perennials have been at-it full-on for over seven years. Familiarity breeds the proverbial an aw that…must get a bit tiring for outsiders looking-in, seeing us bickering like a bunch of Les Dawsons-in-drag. We should all take solace from the likelihood that the ‘silent’ 99% are surely more sensible than the usual suspects, of whom I confess to being one.
Hope you’ll keep posting mister.
😉
Jackson Carlaw is now fine with No deal Brexit “If we have to have that then so be it” he says
What’s wrong with that sentence
@Ian Brotherhood
I’m back in Embra at least once a year. My dear auld Ma lives there so it’s the only chance she has to see her grandbairns. My sons name is actually Edin. He’s named after the first four letters of Edinburgh. My daughter is Daphne, after Daphne from The Broons!
I didn’t come here intentionally or run away from Scotland. I was at the age when the opportunity presented itself and I realised that I’d never even set foot outside of the UK, so I just decided to sell up and go for it and that’s how I ended up in France! It was just taking the chance when it presented itself and damn the torpedoes! It’s not been easy and never will be. I find that I don’t have a lot in common with the French either socially, culturally or politically but hey! I’m Scottish and I never give up.
Ian Brotherhood@9.11pm
I agree. There has been a sea change in so many people’s thoughts.
Yes people do change. I have a friend who is the most Scottish person you could ever meet but he used to drive me to despair because he was a hardcore labour supporter and followed the party line – independence nationalism is bad – blood and soil stuff etc. I used to think if someone as Scottish as him cannot support independence then it ain’t looking good. He has now gone full circle and is even more strident than me that Scotland must be independent. He will be there in Edinburgh on Sat with me, as he has been, on many marches since he changed his opinion in 2012.
Stu Campbell said:
“the only way to get support above 60% is to actually become independent”.
Is that via a General Election mandate, indyref, vote of Scottish MPs, vote of the Scottish Parliament or what?
With the change of circumstances, have you changed your mind since you rubbished, what some people refer to as UDI, or maybe more correctly: Unilateral Withdrawal from/or termination of the Treaty of Union?
In the article found here: https://wingsoverscotland.com/udi-is-the-answer/
Where you compared Scotland unilaterally ending the Union to colonial Rhodesia declaring UDI.
Hi Cubby at 10:03 pm.
You referenced,
“Terry Callachan@8.12pm
1. A very extensive post. I didn’t see the bit where you said my son should be able to vote in the next indyref. Until I do see a change of mind from your blood and soil nationalism I will continue to hold the view, as does WGD, that your type of nationalism is not welcome and is exactly the type of opinion that the Britnat media love to apply to all Independence supporters. So if you are not a Britnat then you are doing a fine job of helping them.”
Cubby, why are you referencing “blood and soil nationalism” when there was nothing referring to that in T Callachan’s comment?
Terry Callachan is a member of the SNP.
He is entitled, as such, to offer opinion on their strategy.
Why do you flag up “blood and soil nationalism” in relation to a comment that typed nothing of the sort?
Cubby, I think you’re just here to stir it.
See you at the WOS stall at The Medows next Saturday, where you can explain your problem with Terry Callachan.
Boris Johnson says the world climate change summit being held in Glasgow is Being hosted by the UK and he doesn’t want Nicola Sturgeon anywhere near it, he goes on to say that he supposes he’ll have to put up with the odd Saltire but as long as there are plenty of Union flags on display that’ll be OK
A couple of things wrong with Mr Johnson’s statements there I believe, it’s not the UK climate summit, it’s the world summit and they chose where to have it not the UK and they chose Glasgow because of Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and if it comes to a choice as to who’s attending, the world will not miss Mr Johnson should he choose not to attend, but if he does he’ll have to sit through a speech from Nicola Sturgeon the person he says he doesn’t want anywhere near it, because the world chose her and he can suck it up or not go, and it’s Scotland that’s the host nation, there is no UK nation but I suspect Mr Johnson thinks like all his type that England is the UK
Oh and there’ll be a lot more than the odd Saltire there, in fact a great many more
@Cadogan Enright (10.00) –
‘And there are a good few others here who need to hang their heads in shame.’
Could you please expand on that?
The Mail online claims the Falklands *War* was the start of the UK feeling good about themselves
If folks can’t see what kind of people these are they need a trip to Specsavers
@Mist001 –
‘I find that I don’t have a lot in common with the French either socially, culturally or politically but hey! I’m Scottish and I never give up.’
🙂
If the word ‘French’ was substituted with ‘Tories’, most of us here would heartily agree.
There must be something about the place which you DO like, eh?
😉
http://www.un.org/en/sections/member-states/about-un-membership/index.html
How does a new State or Government obtain recognition by the United Nations?
The recognition of a new State or Government is an act that only other States and Governments may grant or withhold. It generally implies readiness to assume diplomatic relations. The United Nations is neither a State nor a Government, and therefore does not possess any authority to recognize either a State or a Government. As an organization of independent States, it may admit a new State to its membership or accept the credentials of the representatives of a new Government.
The procedure is briefly as follows:
The State submits an application to the Secretary-General and a letter formally stating that it accepts the obligations under the Charter.
The Security Council considers the application. Any recommendation for admission must receive the affirmative votes of 9 of the 15 members of the Council, provided that none of its five permanent members — China, France, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America — have voted against the application.
If the Council recommends admission, the recommendation is presented to the General Assembly for consideration. A two-thirds majority vote is necessary in the Assembly for admission of a new State.
Membership becomes effective the date the resolution for admission is adopted.
————————————————–
That begs the question, if Scotland becomes independent does that mean the United Kingdom is no longer a UN Security Council member so cannot veto Scotland’s application to the UN?
I like the weather and the metro (tube/underground railway). Seriously though, people would be shocked by the number of people who don’t know Scotland! They couldn’t point to it on a map. They think Scotland is simply the name of a rugby team. There’s a lot of Middle Eastern/North African immigrants here and every single one that I’ve spoken to, knows about Scotland, the kilts, the ‘pipes’ and all that but I’m talking specifically about white, Caucasian French nationals. Many of them don’t have a fucking clue!
I have several serious questions for the SNP faithful on here:
Alyn Smith is trying to get himself selected for Stirling as an SNP candidate for Westminster…would you agree this poses the question: bearing in mind his famous pledge to ‘keep the light on for Scotland Europe’ does this not display a lack of faith in our continuation in the EU project?
How does this square with the repeated statements by Blackford and Sturgeon that ‘we will not be dragged out of Europe’?
Does anybody really think Johnson and his gang of criminals will not succeed within the next month in bulldozing a ‘No Deal’through ‘Parliament’?
If we are out of the EU and inevitably, there is a blunt refusal to allow a Referendum….what exactly can we do?
Have a Referendum anyway? Despite the fact that dejure and defacto we are out of Europe precisely because internationally we are not recognised as a separate state?
Why has no attempt to establish that sovereign status via the international courts by our government ever been made?
Would a Ref without a section 30 be not UDI by any other name? and does the SNP have the balls to do it?
Will the English establishment and wreak revenge on Scotland or shrug their shoulders at our temerity at trying to prevent ‘democracy’ i.e. English electoral dictatorship being achieved?
Will Holyrood survive?
Or are we all waiting for Nobile Officium to spring us free?
I would appreciate some honest answers, not accusations of treachery or undermining etc.
I will still march in Edinburgh next weekend, because I believe in our struggle, but the wider YES movement is where I belong not with the politicians and their weasel words.
BDTT@10.42pm
For goodness sake one minute I’m being told I am too nice and next minute I am told I am a stirrer. Well Brian you are entitled to your view. So am I.
Brian as you well know that is the very point I made. Has he changed his opinion? If yes then say so. If not I find it unacceptable. I did tone it down from racism.
Brian you have been on my case before on this matter. So I get it – Terry is a friend of yours. Does that mean if it was someone else you would find his views acceptable?
“Terry is a member of the SNP and he is entitled to offer an opinion on their strategy” I don’t know why you raise this point as I never said he shouldn’t. Does the SNP know his views? Because it doesn’t sit with their stated views of a civic nationalism. Does Terry put it forward to change from civic nationalism to blood and soil nationalism through the SNP processes?
What exactly do you think I can add to my opinion at the Wings stall that I haven’t set out above or previously. If he doesn’t understand my opinion now he never will. Or is this some sort of veiled threat? Sad if it is.
I like to enjoy the marches somehow I think it will spoil the vibe at the Wings stall. Pity as I was looking forward to hearing your attempt at your long word. I’ll still use my Wings vile Cybernat mug I purchased from the stall at Bannockburn but perhaps not with the same affection.
I’ve lost some respect for you Brian after this post.
Hey cubby, cheer up I don’t care a jot what you think you’re sad eh
Hey ahundredthidiot you misread my post I didn’t say I thought remain would win BY 60% or 70%
I said I thought remain would get 60% or 70% of the vote
Your question “ what else do you think you are way out on “ …I RETURN TO YOU
Thanks, Twathater, in the early hours of Sunday morning (@ 3.16 a.m.). No problem at all. You are welcome, Twathater. Everyone has full permission to re-post anything I post here, wherever they like or to whomsoever they like, if they think it will be useful for others … in view of Scotland’s forthcoming, and very-soon-to-be-achieved, independence.
The Brexit referendum was supposed to be only ‘advisory’ and look what’s happened.
If Holyrood pass legislation for another referendum and make clear that it’s only ‘advisory’, not legal and binding, would this not circumvent the need for a section 30 order?
Assuming a majority voted on the referendum in support of an independent Scotland, then Holyrood could go ahead and declare UDI and argue in the courts that a precedent has already been set with the Brexit advisory referendum?
To lochside
I think even though Nicola Sturgeon and Ian blackford say Scotland will not be taken out of the EU against our will they are also saying that Scotland will hold an independence referendum and will leave the UK and rejoin the EU
Alyn Smith is saying the same thing to the EU , leave the light on so Scotland can return to the EU
I don’t think that Nicola and Ian are at odds with Alyn
They’re on the same page
House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee
Implications of the referendum on EU membership for the
UK’s role in the world
Fifth Report of Session 2015–16
78. “The referendum on membership of the EU offers the UK a once-in-a-generation opportunity…”
Draft Constitution of the Republic of Scotland
Article 1: We, the people of Scotland, are sovereign.
Article 2. Anybody that uses the phrase “once in a generation” is a diddy.
Article 3. The head of state shall be chosen by the people of Scotland and not interfere in politics by telling people to “think very carefully” before a referendum or “purr doon the telephone line” after a referendum.
I think BDTT is right about Terry callachan.
Terence Callahan spelt differently was another matter.
Terry Callachan@
At the rísk of BDTT telling me I am stirring it I take it that your reply means you still hold those views.
I am sad that someone can hold your views but generally I am a pretty upbeat and happy person.
If you don’t care what I think then fine don’t complain about my posts and no need to reply to this post either. As I said on WGD I can only assume you got hit on the head by a horse. It is of course a relief to have it confirmed there is only one Terry Callachan.
Mist001 the people of Scotland are Sovereign therefore any and all referendum are binding.
@Lenny Hartley
If the people of Scotland were truly sovereign, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion and there would be no need for Wings. If Scotland sovereignty hasn’t been legally tested, then it’s just a common belief, like Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.
Opinion polls aren’t binding. That’s essentially what an advisory referendum is, asking peoples opinion.
Re S30 – Nicola has said umpteen times that a refusal will be “unsustainable”. Whether she means the weight of international opinion will force Westminster to agree, or whether she means she will go to court, it is clear that she believes she will get a S30 when she asks for it.
Perhaps there is feature of the “unwritten constitution” which means that Scotland can exercise its own prerogative i.e. the votes of the Scottish people.
The people of Scotland are sovereign. That’s why the EU referendum will never be anything but a referendum in Scotland of the sovereign people of Scotland. A binding result for Scotland. Got it Terry it cannot be a UK wide vote in the sense that Scotlands vote is just lumped in with England, Wales and N. Ireland. If you say UK wide vote you are denying the people of Scotlands sovereignty.
In England of course, the English THINK they are sovereign but they are not. It will always be a moral imperative not a sovereign or legal right to have Englands vote implemented. Geoffrey Cox said in Hof Commons last week it was not a legal right to implement the EU result. As usual he meant for England as in English law.
No need to reply Terry. Just learn.
Lochside @ 11.24
Well while I cannot be described as SNP faithfull, as I’m not a member …. And mair tae the point I personally reject loyalty,to anybody or anything as a concept!!
I’ll try to answer ye…. But of course only with an opinion as it’s all any of us have at the moment!!!
Firstly… UDI is the wrong term ( a whole other conversation but go with it for now)
Suppose the worst happened and Holyrood is closed…
The Scottish MPs are still there,so it would follow that they would have to be the conduit for ending the Treaty of Union.
Just as they were pre Holyrood….
While its not ideal and opens up a whole new front, we still have the representation in Westminster who are willing to end the Union.
We haven’t had that previously when Labour ran the show and in my opinion that is where the power to end the Union has always lay.
Scots Law is still Scots Law and MPs are still MPs so that’s where we’d be.
For goodness sake. The Claim of Right has been established legally and politically. It is no tooth fairy. It exists – it is up to political representatives to use it. If they don’t use it it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. If you stuck an old DVD up in your loft and don’t use it does that mean it doesn’t exist.
Bloody frustrating when people post mince and in particular when it always seems to be against Scotlands rights.
How can we expect other nationalities in the UK to understand Scotland and its people’s rights when so many Scots are so bloody ignorant.
Terry Callahan Re.. The UK wide EU referendum…
What were Scotland’s other choices???
Bob Mack says:
29 September, 2019 at 6:41 pm
@Hamish100,
I hope your comment earns you a ban. Your a bloody idiot.
No other way to put it in afraid.
Oh bob. I thought you cared about free speech. Now I realise its your free speech. Of course as with others on here you have no coherent argument just insinuation.
Sturgeon is a lawyer, Cherry is a lawyer. Between them, these two ought to know if the claim of rights and Scotlands sovereignty has been established legally and politically or not. Maybe my memory is failing me but for the life of me, I cannot recall a single instance of either of them even entertaining that question.
In fact, the only people I read saying stuff like Cubby has said are from independence supporters who are not lawyers.
So sticking my neck out, I’m still with Santa and the Tooth Fairy on this.
Mist001 @ 11.56
I think your forgetting a few things….
If the Sovereignty of Scotland was purely a myth…
Why?
The on going effort since 1706 till the present day to enforce the Union.
Why?
Did Westminster agree to a Referendum in 2014 ?
Westminster is not permitted to act to dilute it’s power’s or bind it’s successors. A Yes vote would have bound and diluted all future parliaments. Sooo…It seems that Westminster was very well aware in 2012/13 that Scotland has the absolute right to vote on it’s future…. What has not been tested in Court is Westminsters ability to stop us!
I Presume that you are aware of the recent Court case?
Therefore,it’s beyond dispute that Scotland has a separate legal system…. Don’t Ye think if it was possible to have amalgamated Scottish Law with England’s it would have been done by now?
Can’t ye see why this is?
I could go on but I suspect I’d bore ye,I hope I’ve said enough to cause ye to rethink and Mibbi see that Scottish Sovereignty is far from a myth?
@Liz g
The question asked was exactly ‘Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?’
So Scotland had exactly the same choices as England, Wales and NI. There was no clause saying that Scotland should be treated as a special case and if people felt that Scotland should have been treated as a special case, then these legal eagles, Sturgeon and Cherry should have challenged it before the referendum took place because now, it just looks like whingeing.
Like it or not, Scotland is still a part of the United Kingdom and participated in the Brexit referendum in the same manner as the other three parties.
Sadly, the Scottish people voted NO in 2014. That has to be respected, even though we believe the NO voters were duped.
Then, the Scottish people voted to REMAIN in 2016. That has to be respected.
The obvious solution is for Scotland to stay in the EU and for England to leave.
The SNP position, stated repeatedly, is for Scotland to stay in the EU and so, if the Scottish people vote YES, to repeal the 1707 Treaty of Union (which is well and truly dead in a ditch) anyway.
@Liz g
What I’ve noticed since 2014 is that a lot of people seem to have become experts in both Scottish and English law. It doesn’t matter if it was Scotland or England, the courts were always going to find that Johnson had acted illegally in proroguing Parliament. If they were in favour of Brexit, you would have found English law overriding Scottish law.
Hamish 100 @ 12.22
I too had hoped the Rev would notice your comment and ban ye.
You took a back handed position on the Dugdale case to illustrate yer point and while yes that is indeed “free speech” it is still lowering the tone and Wings has standards…
But worse that that …Jesus saw you do it…
Kapelmeister@6.51pm
Indeed. More saltire and stars flags are beginning to go up across Galloway – a portent of the indyref campaign ahead.
In 2014 – bitter the memory of it! – Cameron tipped the wink to his pals in Europe to rubbish Scottish aspirations to membership.
Senor Barroso duly obliged and with no evidence crowed it would be “virtually impossible” for Scotland to join the EU.
Which of course, as everybody knew, was keech. But that didn’t stop the UKOK media pack falling on it like ravening wolves to celebrate a big boay in Europe telling us we couldnae jine.
But this time the goodwill cupboard is bare. In fact, not only is it bare, it has been ripped from its fittings and along with the whole rotten hoose is about to be thrown in the scavvy wagon marked “au revoir Angleterre”.
It would have said “au revoir Royaume Unis”, but the kicker ooters have been persuaded otherwise.
Because the outline of a new dwelling place is slowly taking shape. The foundations are as yet hard to make out but it already has a name.
It is Revenant Ecossais. And the meaning of revenant? “A person who has returned, especially supposedly from the dead.”
So it will be for Scotland in Europe. All we have to do, maybe as early as next spring when the swallows come, is walk through the door of our new home, which is being built as we speak.
Mist001@12.27pm
I admire your courage in sticking your neck out. But you are wrong. How do you know I am not or have been a lawyer. You seem to be good at assumptions.
The claim of right was accepted in a court case in the 50s and more recently in a vote in the H of Commons.
Have you asked Cherry or Sturgeon the question? Cherry raised it just last week in the Hof Commons. Blackford on many other occasions.
Give me your address and I’ll put a Euro under your pillow for you.
Mist001 @ 12.41
There’s nothing particularly wrong with “people” trying to understand and bring themselves up to speed with the Law of their Land, I’d say. ..
That’s actually the whole point of Sovereignty it’s a form of people power or AKA democracy, don’t ye think?
Even the Westminster Guru..Dicey warned of ” torches and pitchforks ” as a response to Parliamentary Sovereignty,which could be argued to manifest as English “popular” Sovereignty.
Nevertheless..
It matters not what the English Courts would have done,the point is that the — Scottish Courts Exist to do— and that is an argument that Scottish Sovereignty is no myth?
I’ve been very fortunate to have one of my lot currently studying for a Masters Degree in this very thing and I’m able to read her stuff … So while nae expert… I do have a thing or two to say about what I’m reading… And let me tell ya Mist my friend there’s a whole lot less literature around Santa!!
I wouldn’t actually speak to Sturgeon or Cherry because I believe them to be ("Tractor" - Ed)s to the cause as evidenced by their reticence to raise the point of Scotland sovereignty and claim of right in respect of Scottish independence and instead preferring to ask Westminsters permission.
Don’t worry, I’m not a lawyer either, although I have watched a few episodes of Perry Mason in my time!
What’s a ‘tractor’ got to do with the price of cheese?
Lizg@12.33am
I don’t think he will be convinced.
Sorry I won’t say hello again at the Wings stall. I don’t think I will feel welcome. I like to enjoy the marches and I don’t like the way Wings is going.
I’m off to bed now all the best in trying to convince our friend from France.
Mist001 @ 1.01 & 1.02
Could you indicate who your answering please?
It makes the conversation a whole lot easier to follow.
Thank you in advance. 🙂
Cubby @ 1.03
Aw…. Please ‘re think Cubby…
I would feel duty bound to say that I can no longer confirm yer no Chubby…
Just between me and you…
Is that the real reason :-)..
For my money, Mist001 has given this place a wee shot in the arm, and I’d like to see more new voices coming on here if for no other reason than to give the rest of us some time off (even if we think we don’t need it).
Let’s welcome the newcomers and keep thrashing things out.
What the fuck else is there to do?
As our old friend BuggerThePanda used to say…’Nytol!’
😉
Must just be me, but I’ve had a long career involving documents, agreements, contracts and more. I”m certainly not unique in that (Oh God he’s going to bang on about the Scotland Act again)
Yup, it’s a piece of shit and knocked up in an afternoon. Probably one of the clearest cut contracts I’ve read in my time and pretty much mirrors most kiddy-oan ones I’ve had put in front of me. “This agreement is not binding and can be amended at any time, by us, without informing you – we reserve that right, you have none” – If you have a PC, you’ve clicked a dozen of those.
When such as those were presented to me, they were ‘struck through’ severally and sent back. No-one allegedly representing Scotland did similar – “yeah, yeah, click click”
Point caller, Get to it…
There are a few articles around the ether, anent legal routes to challenging/implementing an Indyref – All miss the point.
Any successful challenge about an Indyref, challenges the entire corpus of the Scotland Act(s). Or to be more precise, its two fundamental clauses : Matters pertaining to the ‘UK Constitution’ are reserved & The UK Parliament may legislate unilateraly for any part of the Scotland Act.
The Scotland Act is a UK Constitutional Act and therefore its entirety is a reserved matter. Any argument upheld, which holds a single article pertaining to the Scotland Act, as not within the competence of the UK Parliament to legislate – strikes down the fundamental clauses upon which the entire body of the Scotland Act rests.
It doesn’t have to be about holding an Indyref – pick anything and use the same arguments. The argument basis? Oh, that’s that there is more than one valid constitution in the UK.
How much of this is “Scotch Lawyer” or ‘Barrack room lawyer’ havers? As much as you want it to be. Take it as you wish.
The relevant Sections and Schedules can be read in 5 minutes
and understood in less.
I’ve plenty more examples, if you are unfortunate I might post them.
Iain mhor @ 1.18
As I understand it Iain,the “killer phrase” is something a long the lines of…
…. Nothing about this Act affects the ability of the UK Parliament to make or unmake ANY Law….
This is the embodiment of power retained.
Even with all the talk of [New ACTs of the Union] that phrase will always be there….
We need to keep the discussion on the TREATY not the acts.
End the Treaty and the UK Parliament ends and along with it the ability to …. Make or Unmake any Law…
Which includes Laws for Scotland!!!
Mist001 @ 12 .34
Sorry I missed this one..
Scotland in theory had the exact same choice,but the very assertion indicates ….. Choice…..
So I would ask.
What exactly were Scotland’s Choices in this instance?
Actually what the FM said regarding the refusal of a section 30 order was that “That will PROVE to be unsustainable”
Carefully chosen words perhaps?
If you read the Scotland bill it clearly says *no nation could be held irrevocably against its will* That was John Major who certified that in 1993 in an article from the Law society Scotland and that pursuant to a referendum on Scottish Independence it is reasonable in law to infer that decision lies with the Scots electorate
The question will be asked as per the agreement of consultation with the UK government and if denied will be a matter for the Scottish courts to decide the matter
Not the Supreme court, the Scottish court system
When the order is requested formally by letter if the UK refuses by letter the court will decide
Thus far no section 30 order has been formally requested by letter from Scotland’s First Minister who is the only person such an official request can come from, just because the press ask the question and some nobody politician says Naw no way, means nothing, even if an MP asks in the House of Commons it means nothing, that’s just a wee show
There are people who bang on about this all the time who know better but they know that most folk don’t so they make capital for themselves by bleating about it all over the internet
The people who tell you a section 30 has been asked for are bending the facts because when it is requested the letter will be made public just like the last one was, remember it was all over the news because it was real, we all saw Alex Salmond’s signature on it and we all saw the reply in the affirmative with David Cameron’s signature on it
If you don’t see that then it hasn’t happened
Terry Callachan @11:31
wow, you really are an idiot and there was me giving you the benefit of doubt.
Pretty sure I have you pegged now.
.
Counsel of despair may be the topic at the head of this page, but at last some good news…
Here is an inside track direct from MP at branch on how our SNP-HQ plan to boost YES to the point where ScotGov WILL launch IndyRef2 within the next few months.
I am paraphrasing bluntly. The actual process conduct and conduits are more nuanced.
Almost gallus in ingenuity, the SNP Westminster MPs plan to mobilise 17,410,742 Brexit voters, millions of whom will join the #fuckoffscotland movement out of blame against the Scots for costing them Brexit. Thereby reverse engineering the dynamic of our IndyRef2 win. Stewart Hosie has already taken the initiative and courtesy of inviting Jeremy Corbyn as interim PM after a VONC in next few days, Nicola has also come out publicly with hard logic on why JC has first bite of Boris’ ar$e + P45.
HOWEVER, all behind-the-scenes discussions have today penultimately failed to crystallize Jeremy for PM in actual opposition votes. The SNP “Plan B” all along has been to coalesce the LibDem + 21 ex-Tory MP + Labour + Plaid Cymru and Green MP + SNP into a full blown opposition VONC in 48 hours but NOT with Jeremy as interim PM. Instead, an outside candidate who is controversial, but who also commands respect and a fair slice of TRUST from all opposition MPs has already met (under cover as “parliamentary peace talks”). This MP has now AGREED to serve as INTERIM Prime Minister.
In the next wee while using the Fixed Term Parliament 14 day rules to form and alternate government presented to HM Queen Elizabeth by the audacious move being proposed from several quarters along these lines of growing momentum. For example, one site…
https://tinyurl.com/Calumxxx
From the main website…
http://www.calumslist.org
The millions of arrogant noisy, angry English Brexiteers will be apoplectic against the SNP and Scotland. The John Bercow touch is delightful as he is loathed by Boris + the ERG.
In mixed martial arts it is well known that using your enemy’s strength against themselves can win the day if you are too wee, too short (maybe not too stupid). Therefore with 17,410,742 marauding Brexiteers against 1,661,191 Scottish EU Remainers, we have over 10 to 1 against us.
A brilliant move by the SNP-HQ in getting our enemy to do the heavy lifting for IndyRef2. As for all the MI5 + Yoon trolls on here, they can stick that up yer fake kilts.
As we are on the eve of this plan being voted through this week, it is safe to release the details.
Upon hearing the plan, I thought: thank goodness, some good news and an SNP master stroke.
——————
Sources and references…
https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/132687
https://archive.is/WqAGP
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results
Mist001 says:
30 September, 2019 at 12:34 am
@Liz g
The question asked was exactly ‘Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?’
So Scotland had exactly the same choices as England, Wales and NI. There was no clause saying that Scotland should be treated as a special case and if people felt that Scotland should have been treated as a special case, then these legal eagles, Sturgeon and Cherry should have challenged it before the referendum took place because now, it just looks like whingeing.
Like it or not, Scotland is still a part of the United Kingdom and participated in the Brexit referendum in the same manner as the other three parties.
But Mist001, that’s exactly where our opportunity springs up. Scotland is in this Union, by tacit consent, and our shameful 2014 No Vote was freedom squandered, but for all that, it was just an affirmation that for all day to day business, Westminster could ‘take it as read’ that Scotland was on board with whatever the UK Government decided.
Brexit fundamentally changed that, because Scotland, not normally asked about anything except an Election, was asked a specific question, and answered that question at odds with the UK majority.
The problem for the UK is that the people of Scotland are sovereign, and thus a Constitutional crisis has arrived on its doorstep where the bipartite Treaty of Union, between constitutional equals in a consensual Union has one Sovereign component choosing one option, and a second Sovereign component choosing a different option.
The two sovereign aspects of UK Constitution are resolved in different directions, and thus the Union is constitutionally untenable unless Scotland sits on its hands and acquiesces to having it’s sovereign integrity subjugated.
The Brexit Referendum was a million dollar question written on a crunched up sweetie wrapper. It was flippant and facile, not just about the ramifications for Europe, but parallel ramifications for the UK Constitution. Conventional UK wisdom has been to avoid rattling the Constitutional cage and giving Scotland any opportunity to express itself due to the Constitutional Pandora’s box it would open. The UK “Constitution” is unwritten for very good reason.
Brexit ignored all the alarm bells, DID open Pandora’s Box, and Scotland exercised it’s sovereign will to choose a different destination from the UK, and he United Kingdom Government now has Hobson’s choice to respect Scottish Sovereignty or attempt to subjugate it.
One of those options is lawful, the other is unlawful colonial subjugation. It is dressed up with guile and faux democracy, but be in no doubt we are seeing colonial subjugation is on our horizon… or at least the attempt.
The UK Union is thus living on borrowed time… provided we Scot’s don’t have another “parcel of rogues” plotting to sell ourselves and sovereign interests down the river, just like they did in 1707.
Scotland’s Government must defend Scotland’s Sovereignty, or “we should exert ourselves at once to drive
himthem out as our enemy and a subverter ofhistheir own rights and ours”.Let’s get back to the metaphor at the head of Stuart’s article. Nicola Sturgeon is James McFadden. In a tight match against formidable opponents there may be only one chance to score a goal. Although preceded by training and build-up play, the actual choice (to shoot, or pass..) needs to be taken in an instant. Make the wrong choice, and you lose. The rest of us are spectators.
English ‘superiority’ is undiminished, as is plain to see in PMJohnson, but also in Steve Baker. Add an overwhelming belief in one’s entitled and privileged status, and you have a nightmare when trying to negotiate on the basis of equality and mutual respect.
And then, with underlying chicanery, bare-faced lying and a hefty dose of England’s notorious penchant for treachery, negotiations become what they are now between the UK and the EU.
In any talks or dealings with this Westminster Johnson Government, now or in the future, Scotland can expect exactly the same – a complete absence of equality and zero respect. Instead, it will be more English upper class colonial attitudes of superiority, arrogance and contempt.
Or have we forgotten somewhat, as a by-product of the daily downpour of BritNat brainwashing from Downing Street via the wholly Unionist BBC and Press.
Please, wake up No voters, can’t you hear the smoke-alarm?
The SNP Gov is above reproach following the letter of the Law and carrying our the electoral wishes. Great commitment and management . The mandate to stop Brexit and stay in the EU. (68%). Then another IndyRef (52+). When it can be won. The demographic are changing. Support for the SNP/SNP and Independence rising every minute. Get one other to vote as well. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. It will be sooner than some folk think. There is no magic ball. Just complete commitment and conviction.
The Tories are going down. How low can they go. Fighting like rats in a sack Europe. Deja Vu. Some people never learn.
The Union with England Act 1707 is Scotland’s legislation for the Union.
If I understand things correctly, it’s that Act of the Scottish Parliament that gave UK Parliament authority over Scotland.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7/contents
Parts of it have been repealed or amended by UK Parliament.
Couldn’t the SNP simply seek an electoral mandate at the anticipated coming GE to repeal that Act completely as an antiquated piece of mince, or unilaterally amend it as the Scottish Parliament sees fit, if they obtain a majority of Scots MPs at a General Election?
So there would be a need to obtain to legally establish that Holyrood is the reconvened Scottish Parliament exercising Scotland’s sovereignty.
So, Scotland only remains subject to UK laws and legislation which it chooses to remain subject to them. Effectively reversed devolution: from Scotland to Westminster. But power is retained at Holyrood.
It would effectively kick the baw up onto the slates. A constitutional nightmare.
Of course it would be unworkable in reality. The UK State would never go along with it. That’s the whole idea.
However, it would form the basis for Scotland to negotiate an orderly move to full independence. To keep Nicola happy we could even have a confirmatory indyref at the end of the process.
I am not an advocate of the ‘once in a generation’ lie, nor of the idea that we will get only one chance of Independence.
The truth remains that the people of Scotland are Sovereign and can choose however many opportunities they wish to become Independent again.
Notwithstanding, that conditions may sometimes favour the winning of any battle, and right now, wind and tide and the current, are all in Scotland’s favour.
But it is not yet High Tide for the good ship Independence to sail on. There remains still, too much resistance to casting off on the part of Scotland’s resident England-loving voters.
But it can’t be long now.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/death-double-agent-british-torture-and-betrayal-1980s-belize/
Just to know what we are dealing with.
But what are we waiting for Manandboy? Brexit to happen and those set to profit by billions from selling short the UK to suddenly feel benign towards Scotland?
We Scots have the power to stop Brexit in it’s tracks. We have a constitutional kill switch for both Brexit and the Union, but a Scottish government unfathomably preoccupied with saving both, which won’t use Scotland’s Constitutional strength until after the critical event and the opportunity has been squandered.
If Scotland’s sovereign Remain vote is NOT respected and we end up outside Europe, then there better be a fearsome stewards enquiry into Bute House and Holyrood. Nicola will need to change the name of the Party all right, and while she’s at it, give it a fake passport, false moustache and spectacles.
And they have the damned fkg cheek to accuse us dissenters of being false Indy supporters…
“If I understand things correctly, it’s that Act of the Scottish Parliament that gave UK Parliament authority over Scotland.”
Nope. It’s that Act that CREATED the UK Parliament
“That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be Represented by one and the same Parliament to be stiled the Parliament of Great Britain“
dadsarmy said: ” Nope. It’s that Act that CREATED the UK Parliament”.
Good point. Cheers.
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/queen-sought-advice-sacking-prime-minister-638320
Jeez. Even the Queen wants shot of Johnson.
I wonder what the Brexiteers will make of this – storm the palace?
`If I understand things correctly, it’s that Act of the Scottish Parliament that gave UK Parliament authority over Scotland.`
jeezo Colin, jeez fricken O,
yill gee Mr Peffers a coronary.
Liz g
But worse that that …Jesus saw you do it…
Interesting comment. Was that a wee dig at someone’s faith or or you anti Buddhist ?
It seems some of the individuals on here get very annoyed when their own errors are placed online for all to see.
As for the dugdale issue (which is out for appeal) I hope the Rev wins but the issue was a free gift to the No side because of intemperate remarks.
Mist001 @ 11:56
I think you will find you are talking pish and I have enough to do without engaging with a troll.
I havent read all the comments, dreich disnae describe this thread so I apologise if both these things have been mentioned.
The rumour mill has it that the Queen asked if she can sack Boris, which follows pretty quickly on from an investigation being announced into Boris by the Polis which follows on from the SP upholding the COS ruling that Boris lied to the Queen which everybody and their dug kens isnae true. It would appear that the palace is rattled. Well done Nicola and the team, I say that, because Nicola is the defacto leader of the 3rd largest party in the uk, no a pretendy leader like willie and dick.. she’s the Boss and naebody should doubt that, Ian and Joanne aren’t acting off their own back. Every time they stand up in the cess pit and talk about Scotland’s right, its no for the lugs of of Britnat dross, its for the EU, the Commonwealth and the Palace. See Wulls comment. Anybody thinking that Henry the VIII laws were included to subvert the Royal prerogative, wrong, it was included to protect the Crown. The crowns just found its no working because its just been confirmed by both the SP and the COS that the Crown is not above the law.
One other issue, apparently the Queen of Denmark has just found documents which allows Denmark and Norway to buy back Orkney and Shetland, David Starkey ( nae laughing now ) has authenticated the document. Obviously Westminster has decided the oil just canny run out any more ( stop laughing ) and decided that old Liz should have a word with her cousin in Denmark. Old Liz needs to stoop digging.
P.S.
I for one am fair delighted that Rev Stu and the SNP are no pals ( very publicly ) come 2021 Holyrood elections, last chance saloon for Westminster to wrangle a reversal of a Yes vote, we need a wings or other party that cannot be accused of colluding with the SNP.
There were riots all over Scotland and petitions sent to Edinburgh. (90). The Jacobite Uprisings 1715/45. Nearly succeeded. The brutality to Scotland by the Westminster Crown. Scotland taxed and conscription for their foreign wars. Nothing changed. A bunch of lying thieves. Except Universal Suffrage 1928. Can stop these crooks getting away with it.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Vote for a better world. Get shot of the bastards. They even illegally changed the Electoral system in Scotland to give them unfair advantage. That is how corrupt the lying unionists can be and their lying duplicity. Scotland never treated equally. The Terms of the Treaty of Union broken before the ink was dry.
Scotland was sold out by a few Lords for money and bribes. The same thing happens now. The unionist politicians. A bunch of criminals and fakes on the take, The reason they join political parties. To ripe off other people. Stuffing their pockets with public money on the backs of other people’s misery. Killing people worldwide. The Brexit mess. Trying to cause misery to others. Vandals and conmen. The Tory ‘psycho bastards’. Their own description. Trying to make money. A fast buck and fool people over Brexit. Billionaires and crooks. Hedge funds and banks. Enough is never enough for them. To destroy the planet.
Illegal wars, tax evasion, financial and political fraud. Breaking International Law. The Westminster unionist imbeciles on the take. Brexit an absolute disgrace.
Iraq War, Dunblane and Lockerbie. Kept secret for 100 years, under the Official Secrets Act. All civil servants and officials have to sign it. The Westminster unionists corruption rotten to the core.
Westminster illegal wars and taxes on Scotland. Throughout history. Taking £Billion/Trillions from Scotland. Leaving people in poverty and Scotland poorer. Breaking the terms of the Treaty of Union, which were not support by the people in Scotland. An International disgrace.
Westminster lying, greedy sycophants and crooks. Vote them out for a better world. Make the world a better place. Stand up for Scotland in the first instance. Erode the power of Westminster illegals. The ‘psycho bastards’. Mucking up the world. They could not make a worse mess and shambles. An absolute disgrace mucking up people’s lives, worldwide. An international laughing stock but it isn’t funny. They are utterly ruthless and dangerous people. Send them homewards to think again.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one other to vote as well. For a better world.
Here is a little snippit on our incorporating Treaty of Union.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zbmsgk7/revision/2
For those of you who think the SNP is failing, get yourself over to Newsnet, read the article don’t just look at the the table.
The Tory Royals are supposed to be impartial. They are not. It could led to their demise. With their interfering. Interesting times.
The British Rooyals cost. £400 million. The Spanish Royals cost £8.7Million.
The Royals should slim down, cut costs or bow out. The lying, greedy hypocrites. The biggest consumers on the planet lecturing others. What a cheek. Cheek of the devil. Head of the Church of England. Not very Christian. The right Charlie. £20Million a year. Pays £2Million tax. 10%. Less than everyone. Illegal tax evaders. Ripping off the public purse. Defrauding the public.
A constitutional monarchy breaking all the rules. Including International Law. Those who make the Law break the Law. They think they are above the Law, including the Monarchy. They are not. Unequal Masonics. The Official Secrets Act. Breaking the Law. Not in the interests of the people.
How long will it last? Not a lot. Not a lot. Johnston will not last until October. Halloween. The Tory dream. Another utter disaster. They will have to have a GE they can lose. The usual get out clause. Leave the mess for someone else to clear up. Typical. A total bunch of fools. A total embarrassment. Each and everyone. No wonder nothing get done but the people shafted. Killing off their own supporters. The elderly that vote for them and the constant lies. Thank goodness for the internet. To get the bastards back. They will not get away with it,
Oh and I forgot to mention last night Joanna Cherry also flagged up the Declaration of Arbroath in the Hof Commons last week. Now that is a fact.
So if posters come on Wings and are not willing to accept facts then we can all make up our own minds as to why they are here.
Note to: Lizg if I have become more chubby then a good walk in Edinburgh will help. I get enough grief on here so no desire to get it at Wings stall. Walk on by is what I’ll do – no personal offence meant to you Lizg.
@ Footsoldier.
First lines bollocks, MP’s weren’t involved in negotiations, Queen appointed commissioners. How the hell can the bbc get basic facts like this so wrong.
I am always surprised as to how the world , or at least huge conquered swathes of it was persuaded that Britain was such an ‘honourable’ country and so superior to all others , uncorrupted and uncorruptible – particularly when so many of their citizens were killed , enslaved or imprisoned.
I think the last few years has opened the eyes of other countries and there is no respect left and little liking for team GB.
Golfnut @ 8.56 am
That is hilarious 🙂
I had heard that the queen is making enquiries into her ability to send Boris back as he is broken.
But the Queen of Denmark has discovered that Denmark and Norway have the right to buy back Orkney and Shetland?!!!
At the original price maybe??
That is huge.
I wonder how the islanders feel about that…
Wowsers?!?! 😮
Quite a thread.
Just paid a morning visit to WGD and his post is worth a read.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/09/29/taking-our-fate-into-our-own-hands/
This bit in particular caught my eye –
“It’s important that we never forget that this is not a disagreement about our goal, it’s a disagreement about tactics. All of us within the independence movement want the same thing, independence for this country. We may have different views about how we get there. We may have different ideas of the kind of independent Scotland that we seek to build. However we should, we must, agree to disagree without being disagreeable, because it’s only as a product of that respectful disagreement that a new consensus can emerge.”
Seems like a fairly sound bit of advice, right enough.
Probably worth people having a think about that. 😉
Can anyone advise on how Javids £25 Billion road infrastructure investment will impact on Scotland?
Is this the Central Treasury fund trick where Scotland gets nothing
Or is it money already committed and stacked up over several years
Or is just an out and out lie, again?
Obviously it isn’t what it says on the Tory Tin.
Denmark to buy back Orkney and Shetland? Solve two problems at once. Oil and Lib Dems.
@ Dean 7.27 – thx for link. A grim tale of British colonialism.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/death-double-agent-british-torture-and-betrayal-1980s-belize/
Bob Mack
Aye that’s right. How often do we here this we spoiler.
Orkney and Shetland sold to Denmark?
R u in Donald trump fantasy land.? Denmark selling Greenland. Only right wing fantasists think they can buy and sell people.
Incidentally most of the local populace have genetic links to the Picts, gaels, / Scots, Norse. We are all a mix.
We have an obligation to save the islands from the wee lib Dems , Rennie, jardine and co.
Joanna Cherry plugging the Claim of Right, the separate Scots legal system and the sovereignty of the Scots people, that I saw last week,
1 the court of sessions interviews she did afterwards
2 her excellent HoC speech
3 she was on R4 Any Questions (from Manchester) this weekend, and in the very first question she established all of these things, was listened to respectfully by the panel, and got the biggest round of applause of all the panellists. She was easily the most coherent and concise person there, and the audience appreciated it.
The people south of the border are being appraised of the fact of Scotland’s sovereignty, and the chess pieces that our FM, IB and Joanna et al are moving into place on the board. I do believe that very soon they will checkmate Westminster.
Rory the Ex Tory last week in the Hof Commons says:
“But it is for this house the ONLY directly elected representatives of the people to determine the form in which that Brexit happens.”
Now that is from a guy who is Scottish and is an MP for a border constituency. He seems to have forgotten about the Scottish parliament.
I really think all these Westminster MPs should attend a full weeks education course on the Scottish parliament. It would give our Britnat presiding officer something to do.
@Hamish100,
Amazingly enough it wasn’t my idea.just commenting on a story.
Shetlanders and Orcadians by the way view their history as Nordic. Wasn’t it Orkney that wanted to separate recently from Scotland? How very right wing of them.
Just like the rest of the Scots were schooled they were north Britishers. The DNA doesn’t lie.
The Tory party set looks at first glance like the Brexit party. I guess that is intentional.
@Hamish100,
That comment is a touch blood and soul Nationalism. They identify as Nordic origin and that is their choice.
Next you’ll be demanding blood tests to prove racial heritzge . I don’t like that “type”of Nationalism personally.
Boudicca@10.17am
Excellent post.
Liz g @1.30am
As ever you are spot on. It is all about terminating the Treaty of Union 1707. No treaty means no UK and therefore no UK parliament.
I just realised. I am risking Bob Mack’s wrath that I should stop ingratiating myself with other posters. Methinks Bob is just jealous I don’t ingratiate myself with his posts. Wonder why that would be.
Hi Cubby.
In your comment of 10.03 last night, you referred to the comment from Terry Callachan@8.12pm.
In your comment, you used the terms “blood and soil nationalism”, “blood and soil Nationalist” and “blood and soil views”. Nowhere in Terry Callachan@8.12pm was there any mention of anything that could be construed as expressing “blood and soil” sentiments.
Therefore, you were not playing the ball of Terry Callachan@8.12pm, rather you were playing the man, according to how you perceive him from comments he has made in the past.
BTW: I have never met Terry Callachan. I know OF him through a work colleague.
BTW2: Is this the kind of “blood and soil nationalism” to which you refer?
https://nation.cymru/news/wales-brexit-vote-caused-by-english-retirees-oxford-university/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research
@Cubby,
it is something of a relief to find you do not ingratiate yourself on my posts. That tells me I am heading in the righ
Macart,
I absolutely agree, Paul is right.
We are all arguing over strategy and I personally think we have been following the wrong strategy, I hasten to add that it is only my opinion and I am fully aware that I could be wrong.
I have however been heartened by what seems to me to be a more combative SNP in recent weeks, I’ve always believed that we should be picking fights with Westminster to accentuate the differences but at the end of the day, we are all on the same side and will be ready and eager to put our cross in the Yes box.
It seems perfectly logical and reasonable to me that more than one strategy exists for our independence. What doesn’t seem logical or reasonable is to call people who are advocates of one strategem trolls or tractors.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with dissenting voices and I would argue that they are needed for debate but only as long as they are sensible.
On the subject of the possibility of the Queen sacking Johnson, 2 things;
First I believe it is good news for Independence that this story is out and being talked about however secondly I believe it would be harmful to our Independence if Boris was actually removed and replaced by someone less toxic.
A reminder that this is only my opinion and I am willing to have my mind changed by intellectual means if I am wrong.
@Breastplate,
No ,you are right.Winning strztegy____but to what end?
Credit turmoil is happening now,today, and whilst we certainly are making gay out of it, the END product is far from certain,because there is no referendum for Scotland visible at the very instant of maximum opportunitg.
Wextminster may very well with help from the SNP thwart a no deal Brexit. We may get a deal and lose the greatest opportunity we have ever had to save by by to England.
Back to square one awaiting another disaster to provide an opporgunity
DNA studies provide a very interesting insight into the movements of people across the globe. Changes in DNA pinpoint moments in time when one group branches off to form a different population. Lines of migration across Europe can unite rather than divide.
It tends to demolish “blood and soil” notions of nationality. Such nonsense is untenable when the scientific evidence is clear.
We are all migrants.
That doesn’t alter the political entity that is Scotland. As a political unit with its own history and culture, Scotland is a normal European country with a very abnormal relationship to its big neighbour.
If Orkney and Shetland were interested in going it alone or joining fascist England
Scotland can agree to keep our North Sea oil revenues and they can lean on hand
Outs from their friends in London.
God help them!
I know the date of Indyref 2.
The day the ‘Sex Pest’ Salmond trial opens.
Scoop Hutcheon and Tam Gordon have big fat folders ready and waiting.
Clegg has been sent on secondment to Thomson’s up in YES Dundee, and will unleash his ‘secret’ dossiers when the time comes.
They know that we are leaving this time.
It will get very ugly and vicious.
The Picts were in the Northern Isles before they became part of Norway for 600 years, and for the last 550 years they’ve been part of Scotland, but when I last visited Shetland and sat on the bus from Sumburgh to Lerwick, (and back), the majority of the accents of my fellow passengers sounded neither Scottish nor Norwegian, nor indeed a mixture of the two which gives the native tongue its wonderful sound.
The vast majority of accents I encountered throughout the week originated a peerie bit further south than either Berwick or Carlisle. Perhaps that might explain local politics.
Apart from 60% being too high I’d agree with Michael’s video completely. I’m not about to go back to being in favour of the Union and the younger generation is unlikely to. Opinions over the last 5 years have proved far from entrenched – that’s maybe only a result of looking at a short timeframe. I believe that a sustained >55% is a near future possibility, and if it isn’t? If we can only drag the thing over the line briefly at 52% for 5 minutes I don’t think it works. But independence has to become a core value rather than a short term yes/no question. Rather than looking for a quick win on the streets it’s a matter of deeper education and normalising the idea. We do debate in ways that lead to entrenchment though.
Furious daily anti independence letter writer Dennis Forbes Grattan gives the unionists’ latest game away. He writes in the lead letter in the Record that Nicola Sturgeon is a useless SNP leader and should be replaced by Joanna Cherry. We all know if he and they believed that they would want Nicola to stay in the post.
Any SNP bigwigs with Dennis on this one do you think ?
Any commentators on Wings?
Macart @ 09:30,
Amen to that.
Breastplate @ 10:45:
Likewise.
Paranoia isn’t a good look. Doesn’t win any converts.
Dave McEwan Hill @ 11:38,
Huh. Joanna has been doing sterling work, but she doesn’t have a country to run. Doing that (oft thankless) day job.
Thankfully for us (if not the likes of Grattan) we have them both, and many other talents besides.
@Robert Knight.
my misxus is Orcadian. I assure you they most definitely do not see themselves as Scots in the main,accent or no.
Dennis G. is a known Labour activist. Another absolute disgrace. A total imbecile. A rotten P&J letter writer. A total mucking imbecile. Thick as mince. From the NE. Been at it for years. The unionist imbecile. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Spouting absolute nonsense. To muck up other people. Borders on obsession. Can’t even do a bit of research. Total stirrers. Full of rubbish. Gie’s Peace.
The Conference will stir their hatred.
Orkney didn’t want to separate from Scotland, that was Captain Pugwash or whatever he’s called. One single madcap. And he wasnted to stay with the rUK when we get Independence, and dingy Scotland. Ahoy ye landlubbers, Rule Britannia!
There will be no Salmond trial. They will be apologies and a massive compensation payment. Followed by the resignation of a few civil servants. In disgrace. Hopefully no massive pension payments for gross misconduct.
@Dave McEwan Hill,
Cards on the table time.
Nicola has been ,and indeed is, an e cellent FM especially on a domestic agenda. No arguement or dissention on that.
Alex Salmond when elected in 2011, promised a referendum on Indy. did he get it? yes ,he did in 2014.
Since Alex left Nicola has been promising the very same thing.
Has she got it ? No.
Westminster has been stalling her for the past two years, with no sign of movement to agree. and in fact al! subsequent PMs say is youve had a referendum,or now is not the time.
Challenges in court.? None.
This is not about writers who like kr dislike Nicola. This is about people believing the promises made to give them a choice of independence should conditions change. Promises made and repeated by those elected on that remit.
No clear sign it is going to be fulfilled, is there ?
Boudicca says:
30 September, 2019 at 10:17 am
Joanna Cherry plugging the Claim of Right, the separate Scots legal system and the sovereignty of the Scots people…
Joanna Cherry might be the saviour of us all. I certainly hope so, but I get anxious about the lead-in time for preparing a legal or constitutional challenge, and getting a timely result. Shouldn’t the preparations and fieldwork be apparent?
I found it interesting that the Supreme Court essentially “backdated” their judgement to affirm Johnson’s unlawful prorogation was void, as if it never happened. Rees-Mogg’s letter was turned into a blank sheet of paper. Bercow had the Westminster records altered to suspended, specifically not prorogued.
I didn’t know Courts could do that. I am now keen to learn whether Scotland could actually be Brexited, but challenge the Constitutional validity of Brexit from ‘beyond’, after the event, and have Brexit “undone” in the same way as Johnson’s proroguation.
I’m not at all sure whether such an “undoing” of Brexit and rewinding of consequences would work in the EU Membership context.
So a big thumbs up for Joanna, but I’m still not complacent about anything. I’ll feel better once our Constitutional Dreadnought is in the water and underway, not just battling for a principle, but full on Constitutional emancipation and Scotland’s Independence.
Ah well I was close:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_%22Captain_Calamity%22_Hill
He was much quoted during Indy Ref 1 by Unionists as Orkney (and Shetland) wanting to stay part of the rUK, though the Unionists implied it was all of the islanders, who actually felt just as remote from Holyrood as Westminster – hence the Council of the Isles or whatever it was/is called.
Ken500 at 11.55
You may well be correct.
And who would that suit best if it happened? With attempts to undermine Nicola Sturgeon reaching fever pitch.
Think clearly now.
Robert J. Sutherland at 11.43
Exactly.
Bob Mack @ 11:45,
Doesn’t matter a toss one way or another. The whole “Northern Isles secessionist movement” is a total FibDem/BritNat “astroturf” fiction – a distraction operation straight out of the “divide and conquer” black book. (As eg. appeared out of nowhere in the pages of The Graun a day or so before IR1.)
Giving it any credibility or attention (other than to expose it as a cynical fake) serves nobody but the BritNats.
@Robert J Sutherland,
Your argue that a people who were part of the Nordic Empire unti! 1600, should just forget that history and be happy to remain part of Scotland? Doesnt sound good for Scots indy if
we can dismiss others aspirations so easily.
Remind me how Orkney voted in the referendum ?
Being blinkered to any facts but your own is seldom enlightening.
Orkney and Shetland can indeed stay with England if they so wish to do. Under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea they will be re- classified as an enclave of another state.
The islands will have a 12 mile sea boundary and no oil fields. Im sure England will bail them out London is not that far away is it.
Anyhoo I have read that over 90% of these islander are Scottish genetically .
wullie at 12.20
Exactly.
@Wullie, Exactly what is Scottish “genetically”. Do Indians and Immigrants from Asia count ?
Scotland had lots of oil_______until the McCrone report.
Wonder who overturned that?
Oil and gas are real power Ownership will go to whoever the big compznies decide.
Hold the line!
Bob Mack@10.45am
Hi Bob, you never know I may think one of your posts are good one of these days but it would certainly help if you actually finished them and did some proof reading before you press submit. It would certainly help me to understand what you are actually posting.
Looking good for Scotland 27-0 61 mins gone.
Bob Mack says:
30 September, 2019 at 12:28 pm
@Wullie, Exactly what is Scottish “genetically”. Do Indians and Immigrants from Asia count ?
Ah Bob, it was a telly prog I watched many years ago the programme used the genetical link between mainland Scotland and the Northern isles. The majority of the people of the isles had ancestral links to Scotland and in no way were they connected to Scandinavian people, cannot remember when or by whom the programme was aired.
@Cubby,
sorry but I have severe contractures on both my hands. pot luck with typing.
Boris’s toxicity is scrambling through the roof.
Wants to block Scotland’s First minister from attending the United Nations Climate Summit to be held in Glasgow next year.
Boris said ‘I don’t want to see Nicola Sturgeon any where near it’.
Is that right son?
Oh and wants to plaster Union flags all about the place but doesn’t mind a Saltire or two.
Hmm.
Here’s a great Scottish website
I didn’t even know it existed until i came up it by accident
You can check where you live and see if there are any relics monuments old historical buildings
I just found some Pictish stones on the website that are situated just down the road from me
I didn’t even know they were Pictish nor did my neighbours
My good friend a historian said I was likely a pict I have the long white legs and red hair and shape of nose that the Picts were known for and I’m from the east of Scotland Angus area
Fabulous
Check it out
Do a search
Here’s a great Scottish website
https://canmore.org.uk/canmore_cart_sr
I didn’t even know it existed until i came up it by accident
You can check where you live and see if there are any relics monuments old historical buildings
I just found some Pictish stones on the website that are situated just down the road from me
I didn’t even know they were Pictish nor did my neighbours
My good friend a historian said I was likely a pict I have the long white legs and red hair and shape of nose that the Picts were known for and I’m from the east of Scotland Angus area
Fabulous
Check it out
Do a search
Bob Mack @ 12:18,
You are conflating society with politics. Many different regions of Scotland have their unique traditions but that doesn’t make them desperate to stick with England come-what-may. If the Orcadians and Shetlanders are as independent-minded as you believe (and they could very well be), why on earth would they have any more inclination to be a miniscule vassal of distant England than a valued part of Scotland? They are not stupid. Yet that was the very proposition we were served-up with in the lead-up to IR1. Are you seriously trying to maintain that this was a genuine grassroots movement that suddenly appeared, fully-grown, out of nowhere? Something genuine and not conjured-up by Liar Carmichael & Co. to serve their narrow purposes? Are you really that wonderfully naive?
As for practical politics, the traditional FibDem stronghold of Shetland suffered a serious reversal of fortune to the SNP at the recent by-election. Not enough to change the result, but a sign of the times nevertheless. There’s only one political movement that’s on the rise up north, and it’s the exact same one as the rest of us. For the exact same reasons.
@Wullie,
Jim Silson geneticist at Edinburgh University tested 1000 Scots and found most came from al! over Europe.Indeed the famous actor Antonio Conti ws found go be related to Bonaparg.
Vefy very few of us are distinctly Scots.We have ancestry from all over the world. I think it is one in 100 who can claim to be true Scots via descendency.(2012).
Modefn genetic research reduces this figure even further
Hey cubby,
Bye
No need to reply
Only genetically original Americans should run things in that country
Just think how quickly the votes would be counted
Instead of laughing at the latest propaganda effort by the Britnats regarding Scots oil were of on one discussing this. Does anybody seriously think that Westminster, if this was being brought up at a time when the Scottish question wasn’t going to be asked again, wouldn’t have just told Denmark and Norway to f#ck off.
Shetland and Orkney are part of the Scottish State, within the legislative jurisdiction of Scots law. Now personally, if I was a Shetlander or Orcadian, I wouldn’t be looking to Westminster for Denmark and Norway as a recipient of the oil revenue.
@Robert J Sutherland,
Evefy year over 1000 men and their families perform and prepare for a ceremony in Shetland called Up Helly aa.
Do you know what that is?
pop Shetland around 23,000.
Off Topic. TODAY.
Scottish Tories do a U-Turn on Brexit.
“A further delay to the UK’s departure from the EU would not be supported by the Scottish Conservatives, according to their interim leader.
Jackson Carlaw, who replaced Ruth Davidson earlier this year, also confirmed that the party had dropped its opposition to a no-deal Brexit.
However, he said his preferred option was for the UK to leave the EU with a deal on 31 October.
When she was leader Ms Davidson would not support leaving without a deal….”
Taken from Scotland Politics on-line.
There is no such thing as a good/soft Brexit or any other kind of Brexit Mr Carlaw or any of your other Tories, Blue or Red.
Boris Johnson is taking every opportunity to insult Scotland
it’s almost like he’s on our side
Keep it up BoJo, we’re luvvin it
From WGD
There’s been a lot of discussion within the independence movement recently about the timing of the next referendum. There are those who are deeply suspicious of the SNP leadership, and whether Nicola Sturgeon is serious in her pursuit of a Section 30 order and a referendum next year. Some want a referendum right now, before Brexit starts to wreak its destructive effects. They warn that the momentum will go out of the movement, that the devastation of a no deal Brexit will drive EU citizens away. Others call for caution and point to the slow rise in support for independence in opinion polls as evidence that we can and should wait for support to rise to 60%. Then they say, when there is a referendum we can be certain of winning it
It’s important that we never forget that this is not a disagreement about our goal, it’s a disagreement about tactics. All of us within the independence movement want the same thing, independence for this country. We may have different views about how we get there. We may have different ideas of the kind of independent Scotland that we seek to build. However we should, we must, agree to disagree without being disagreeable, because it’s only as a product of that respectful disagreement that a new consensus can emerge.
Bob Mack @ 13:21,
Up Helly Aa is a pure Victorian invention.
And it’s not politics. Duh.
What on earth are you desperately struggling to prove here?
Ghillie says:
30 September, 2019 at 12:59 pm
Boris’s toxicity is scrambling through the roof.
Wants to block Scotland’s First minister from attending the United Nations Climate Summit to be held in Glasgow next year.
Boris said ‘I don’t want to see Nicola Sturgeon any where near it’.
That’s because when she tells the delegates everything the Scottish Government has done in terms of combatting climate change and compares it with Westminster, she’ll give the UK Government a right beamer! Johnson wants to turn up (always assuming he isn’t in Wormwood Scrubs by then) and claim all the credit for himself.
In Ireland children at taught at their mothers knee, you can’t trust the Brits ever on anything, then they teach them the history of why
In Scotland we’re not good enough at that
It’s not about hatred it’s about fact, you can’t cure the Brits of arrogance and Imperialism and you can’t kill it, so you have to allow it to die naturally
@Robert J Sutherland,
OK. So over 1000men march in full viking gear to throw torches on a viking longship for no reason other than the Victorians invented it. You know like Scots love Morris Dancing and do it all the time.
You try to separate Social and political as if somehow they are not linked, yet before your very eyes Boris is driving the public just as much as the public is driving him.
Austefity a political decision has driven social unrest which in turn drives them altufn Political and social drive each other.
Duh! Even Homer would understand that .But you__ not so much.
When next years summit comes round maybe we should show Boris we’ve got a lot of Saltires
Robert J Sutherland
Basically Mrs Mack is trying to say Scotland doesn’t exist. Orkney and Shetland are Norse ( they ain’t) and a Victorian event with men with horns on their heads prove this. Many folk I know believe it is just an excuse to partake of alcohol and some are less than happy of female involvement. There are plenty of such events across Scotland highlighting local identify. All good.
Scotland has a wide wealth of peoples, traditions, music and talents.From the northern Isles, western isles , highlands, the east coast, borders Dumfries and Galloway and the central belt.
Such a richness.
CORRECTION Re my Post at 1:21pm:
“BBC Scotland Politics on-line.”
@Hamish100,
Try reading the history of Shetland before writing anything.
It makes you appezr stupid. Shetland was historically Nordic.
Do you thknk all those Norsemen just jumped in the sea and swam back to Norway when Scotland took over. Do you thnk like Scots they theh forgot their origins and beginnings?
Shetland has ALWZYS celebrated its Nordic roots, horned helmets or not. i imagine Scots after Flodden still felt Scottish and stil! survived and carried on with tneir culture.r
Dk you think at all ?,may be a more lertinent question
At last, a cure for the Scottish cringe!
It’s called BoJo and is available from all media outlets.
Boris is doing more for independence than anyone has over the last 3 years
@Dr Jim at 1.48: we’ll need all the saltires we can get to wave at the Westminster rep at the Glasgow climate summit next year. So more donors re needed for tartanpigsy’s “10,000 flags” GoFundMe fundraiser – at £4608 of target £12,000.
Johnson isn’t a recruiting sergeant for independence, he’s a draft board.
Hi Sarah.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes
New Panel-base Poll causing my other half some merriment.
She says it’s a bit different from normal. She’s giving clues.
* Some Q’s asking what do you think the SNP’s motives are
* S30 wait or go to court
* A gender question too.
She wont let me see them but I am thinking.
Hmmm! Are you doing your thing Rev? 🙂
I never get Polls: 🙁
Puir mr Mack back into the insults.
How long were the peoples of the Iron Age on Shetland and Orkney on the land and fishing before the Norse invaders.
Ask Tavish Scott!,
Oops wrong name – too Scottish. Lol
@BDTT – thanks for the link! Seems to have inspired Bob Mack at least. Good on you Bob.
The Viking festival is bigger now that it’s ever been because Scotland is on the map and it brings in tourists and tourists bring in money so the Shetlanders not being daft learned that a little was good so more must be better
Some areas do kilts and bagpipes some areas do pop concerts the Shetlanders do Norse
Disneyland does imagination for kids, they’re all selling what they can to make a few quid and it’s a lot of fun into the bargain
@Hamish 100,
if thats your argument then who actually owns Scotland ?
i believe they came from Africa pre continental drift.
Should we return it to them?
I await the new depths of stupidity to come.
“I don’t think people would give up on independence completely – but I’m concerned that there is a deep division over the date for indy2 when the most important thing is that we win it whenever it happens”
Michael, while we “wait” for these “divisions” to heal and for a utopia that may never arrive, Scotland’s natural assets and revenues are being taken away from us, our children and grandchildren.
If we “wait” long enough I am sure that 60 or even 70% may easily reach the polls. Would this be because much more people wants independence? No. It will be because Scotland will no longer have anything of worth or interest that could make the English establishment set their massive propaganda machine in motion and their battalion of useful idiots in Scotland in gear to oppose that independence, I include here the Civil Service. Scotland by then would be a real burden they want to get rid of.
In 2014 the Yes movement started below 30%. We have now close to 50%. It is ridiculous to say that there may not be enough people to vote YES. There are plenty of people to vote YES, they just need the right arguments. Waiting and seeing how a cartel of rogues destroys our country and bleed it dry of power, wealth and people is not going to make them see those arguments anymore they are seeing just how useless Johnson is.
I voted for the SNP in 2016 because they included that referendum in the manifesto. I fully expect a date for that referendum being enshrined in law BEFORE May 2021. If the SNP lets this opportunity pass, if they disregard our mandate, in my case the main reason why I vote for them, then forget it, I will cast my vote for somebody else or not cast it at all.
We have been very patient already seeing how the status quo we voted for in 2014 has been dilapidated and shredded to pieces by a rogue UK gov and nothing has been done in the courts to stop them, to reassert our Claim of Right.
the SNP have chosen a political game among some and linked to every political game is a gamble. I only say that I will not be complacent seeing how the mandate Scotland gave to the Scottish gov and parliament is trashed.
May 2021 that is the deadline. A date for Scotland’s indyref must be fixed by then or an alternative route to independence must have been pursued. No more waiting. No more procrastinating. It is time for Scotland to flex its muscles and assert its real power and position in this political union.
Jings!
BBC tick a tape words on screen reporting on the International Athletics ‘meat’. 🙁
We used to get the belt for that!
In other news Boris to ‘test’ the law and it’s only the ‘backstop’ that’s stopping us but a deal is nearer. Aye!
Bob Mack@12.58am
Sorry to hear about your problem with your hands. I admire your grit in continuing to post. I’ve no idea what all this stuff about Orkney/Shetland is about so I ‘ll have to wait a bit longer before I can say good post Bob. Based on your previous comments I doubt that will bother you.
If I do read a post that in my opinion merits a “good post Bob” please remain reassured that I am not trying to ingratiate myself with you. Similarly if you post something I think is wrong and I say so then please be assured it is nothing personal.
Have you noticed it’s like the BBC keep any news from Ireland a secret in case the truth gets out, and none of the media wants to report what any of the other parties in Northern Ireland have to say, you know the parties who actually represent Northern Ireland
They’ve got a cheek to complain about North Korea
I’ll bet most of England don’t even care what anybody in the whole Island of Ireland thinks or what’s going to happen when the N Irish decide they don’t like what the Brits are doing to them once again
In recent years the Independence movement has grown to the extent that we are almost there. Also for years the westminster cabal of unionists and their pals in the media have fought a battle of lies and misinformation to keep Scotland part of the UK.This despite them repeatedly telling us that we are a “drain” on westminster resources.
My view of the Orkneys and Shetlands wanting to remain part of the UK after Independence, let them. We know from bitter experience what its like to be denied our liberty. If they vote that way, let them. They can become the Gibraltar of the north sea.
A bonus would be getting rid of the Libdems.
little bit of bunkum on here today
Yes, there’s history, but Orkney and Shetland are a part of Scotland. Full Stop.
@Cubby,
You give me both barrels if you think im wrong. i will do the same for you. It actually isnt personal. its about something more important than our ruffled feelings. Its about how to achieve indy.
We disagree on much,but on indy we should find a common thread.
Dr Jim@3.14pm
It’s not only Ireland of course. The BBC which is supposed to be a broadcaster serving the whole of the UK really is just an English broadcaster. Just how much do you learn from the BBC about what is happending in Wales. It’s all London London with a smattering from some regions of England.
Javid finally mentions “Keeping the Union together” and dribbles
a sentence into the sand by exalting Ruth Davidson and……and leaves the subject of Scotland hanging to talk about the English Northern Power House. That didn’t take long. 🙂
@hundredgheidiot.
Guess which Nations flag can be found hanging on Lerwick town Hall and many houses on Norway National day ?
The most common surnames in Shetland end in son.
yearly boat races take place between Shetland and Norwegians.
Lerwick is twinned with Bergen.
Artefacts and street names litter Shetland,all of Viking origin
But its Scottisb. They are Scots. in name only. Those damn Victorians introducing all these Viking artefacts.
Didn’t they check the DNA of Shetlanders a few years back and it was 0.0000087 percent Scando?
@Andy Hay,
yes. However that does not prevent them having a feeling of being linked to Scandanavian history. like my Italian mate who swears blind he is Scottish through some miracle of reincarnation from Culloden.
He is more Scots than me
All this stirring talk about the Northern Isles is just that . I believe in democracy. So the peoples of these islands can choose. However international law clearly indicates that the oil and gas would still be in Scottish territorial waters even if and it is a big IF these islanders went their own way.
I always find this red herring goes running when the Unionists know that they have lost.
@Famous15,
playing devils advocate, what exactly have the Unionists lost?
As far as im aware no referendum has been sanctioned as yet.
At that point they are winning
Will the media hold tories to account on tory hypocrisy? I know, a stupid crap-arsed question.
Speaking of Operation Arse…
Re the Northern Isles
I suggest the inhabitants are mongrels like the rest of us.
After the last ice age, which ended ten thousand years ago, the Northern Isles were gradually colonised by settlers from the Scottish mainland. There are plenty of archaeological remains going back six or seven thousand years and Orkney had a magnificent civilisation which produced the earliest stone circles and stone buildings in the British Isles, more than five thousand years ago and before the pyramids of Egypt.
So the brief episode of Norse colonisation, no more than 400 years, is less than ten percent of the time the Isles have been inhabited, and, although no one thought of themselves as Scots for most of that time, the islander’s DNA is more Scottish than Norse.
The Norsemen also colonised the Western Isles and much of eastern Ireland, including Dublin.
The Western Isles were recovered after a series of battles in the reigns of the early Stuarts, while the Northern Isles were given to Scotland as a dowry for a marriage with a Norwegian princess, so for seven hundred years the Northern Isles have been legally Scottish.
It’s all a bit of Unionist nonsense to try to divide the Islands from the rest of us, but, as has been mentioned elsewhere, under International law, the islands would become a small enclave within Scottish waters, like the Channel Islands, close to France but part of England.
Their territorial waters would extend only twelve miles. There are no oilfields within twelve miles so they would be dependent on far-away Westminster for their economy and would not have the protection of the EU.
Good luck with selling that to the sensible Shetlanders and Orcadians.
ahundredthidiot
https://www.abdn.ac.uk/law/documents/RBS_v_Hill.pdf
A comment on a legal case relating to sovereignty of the Shetland Isles.
The tried and tested method of sexual harassment allegations by the media to overthrow politicians has become so commonplace now that people have come to expect it as part of life and either don’t pay any attention any more or just don’t care, and that’s had the unfortunate result of the media using that tactic so often that real cases of bad behaviour are as likely to be overlooked as the fake stuff
Now it’s a case of opponents of the particular politician involved will want say they believe this stuff and supporters will say they do not and the rest just give up the ghost with sighs of here we go again
At some point in time something must be done about the media’s desire to control the narrative of everything by using their power of 24 hour talking about what they want to talk about instead of what the actual news is
The media’s idea of a free press seems to be that if you don’t tell us everything we want to know we’ll just make it up and force you to deny it
The media aren’t playing the part of the public’s right to know information they’re playing the invention of information to control the public’s narrative
That’s way more dangerous than bad politicians because there are always decent politicians to put a halt to that kind but are there decent journalists to do the same in their profession, well no there aren’t, not if they want to keep their jobs
The media are a runaway train that insists nobody else can touch the brakes or it’s suppression of their right of manipulation
Why would Shetland want to become a tax haven enclave like San Marino or the Vatican and draw billions in investment?
No idea.
Update – Jo (flexi-vowels) Swinson has briefed the press there will be no VONC on Boris for the next 3 weeks – to enable him to negotiate the deal/extension with EU.
And so the clock keeps ticking down.
3 weeks ago we were told – in the face of an unlawful prorogation – that there could be no VONC because the person who had the statutory right to call the GE date was the PM – i.e. Boris and he would therefore pick a date after 31/10/19, parliament would be closed during the GE campaign and Brexit no deal would happen by default in the interim. That made sense.
Since then the date by which we could hold a GE or a PV Ref before 31/10/19 has passed.
We were told a VONC would be this week – to get rid of Boris, hold a GE as soon after 31/10/19 as possible an have an interim PM in power to negotiate (in good faith) an extension with EU.
BUT – not one single member of the Unionist parties, red, yellow, or blue want the Scots to get anywhere near the ballot box, not while the SNP are doing so well in the polls – it is not in their interests.
No Deal Brexit is very much in the interests of the British Establishment – they do not want to pay their taxes on the historic trust funds, they are used to running the UK from behind the scenes, they are very much a core part of the Tory, Lib Dems and Labour parties – just look at the House of Lords if you don’t believe me. And they stand to make a quick buck and a small fortune selling off the NHS and what remains of our public services. AND shut down Holyrood and shut up the Scots for a very long time.
We are now 31 days away from No deal Brexit = chaos = state of emergency = Holyrood shut down.
Slightly longer, and slower, but much the same is a GE in which the English Nationalist Tory/Brexit party win a whopping majority in England – and say fuck the scots and their parliament – to rousing cheers from the home county side.
None of this is good, not in any way.
@Daisy Walker,
Your supposed to wait for plan B Daisy dont ya know.
Can we get one thing straight. It’s Orkney & Shetland. No s at the end.
2014, YES votes, bottom eight:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/results
Orkney Islands 17,806 32.80%
Scottish Borders 95,533 33.44%
Dumfries & Galloway 122,036 34.33%
Shetland Islands 18,516 36.29%
East Renfrewshire 72,981 36.81%
East Lothian 81,945 38.28%
East Dunbartonshire 86,836 38.80%
Aberdeenshire 206,486 39.64%
Loads of Vikings!
Edinburgh 378,012 38.90%
Perth & Kinross 120,015 39.81%
Bob Mack 3.32
So Shetlanders eat Norwegian food, follow their football teams, listen to their folk music, wear their traditional dress at weddings and dances, speak Norwegian?
I think there is more to being Norwegian than sticking a few flags out.
2014, YES votes, bottom ten:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/results
Orkney Islands 17,806 32.80%
Scottish Borders 95,533 33.44%
Dumfries & Galloway 122,036 34.33%
Shetland Islands 18,516 36.29%
East Renfrewshire 72,981 36.81%
East Lothian 81,945 38.28%
East Dunbartonshire 86,836 38.80%
Edinburgh 378,012 38.90%
Aberdeenshire 206,486 39.64%
Perth & Kinross 120,015 39.81%
Loads of Vikings!
East Dunbartonshire is my constituency where I’m afraid it’s overwhelmed by folks my age and older, the ones who benefit the most from the SNP in government, they’re a *grate* full bunch
The dead the dying and the soon to be dead
@Macduff,
yep Theres more to being Scottish than wavng a Saltire as well, but plenty seem to put them together at indy marches eh.
No internet connection?
No Wings over Scotland
No demographics
@Ken500,
That was the best post of the day.
It’s likely a vote of confidence would pass in the Commons. It’s possible the Tories Alliance could vote for Johnston. So they do not lose their seats at a GE. Self interest and party before the UK interest. Typical. Self serving liars.
Bob Mack at 4.05
Because no referendum has been formally asked for as yet,or do you think we are all daft.
@Dave McEwan Hill,
No I dont think your all daft. Just a select few.
ps It was formal!y asked for two years ago.
ps You may also wish to believe that Mrs May decided to announce that “now is not the timd”out of thin air,given that she never received that request.
Mundell whk also never received thd request also refused to consider ghe request he never feceived.
strange world
The First Minister wrote a letter to the then Prime Minister Mrs May to begin discussions on a section 30 order but did not formally request one at that time, the steps required are that a letter is sent to the presiding officer of the Scottish parliament who approves its content (or not) and is put to a vote for decision
This did not happen because the FM in her letter to the Prime Minister recognised that the statement of intent from the Prime Minister in that she would not support it was agreed by the First Minister and so it was not pursued at that time
When a section 30 order is formally requested it becomes public domain knowledge, so unless there is another letter we don’t know about, that’s all that there has been, a request to discuss and a refusal to discuss
I can find no other letters pertaining to a section 30 order since that time, maybe somebody else can
‘Bob Mack says:
30 September, 2019 at 4:37 pm
@Daisy Walker,
Your supposed to wait for plan B Daisy dont ya know’
‘s’all right Bob – I heard a man on the tv say ‘Scotland will not be pulled out of the EU against our will’, ‘n anither ane telling the EU tae ‘keep the light on fir us’ – though he’s now packed his kit bag fir a nice (extremely well paid) green bench in London don’t ye ken, ‘n us no even oot yet.
Still, mibee when we’ve got a few more mandates under oor belt eh? 4 or mibee 5, not 3 though, 3’s nae use.
The letter written to Theresa May is printed on the Scottish Govt website dated 31\3\17.It is addressed to the Prime Minister Theresa May.
It isnt addressed to anyone else. Read the damn thing before you comment. It is as clear as day. read it,find it and read it again then come back and claim it is not a request for a section 30. Pleeeaaassse.
My cunning Plan B is simply to Self ID as a citizen of an independent Scotland in the EU.
These days that should suffice…
The request of a section 30 order may be undertaken by the Scottish government or the under secretary of state for Scotland but decisions on the execution or acceptance are a matter for the Prime Minister
Whoever holds the position of Secretary of State for Scotland however has no authority to deny or confirm such a power
In other words Mundell could say the moon was green cheese with chocolate on it, it doesn’t make it so, it’s meaningless as all secretary of state’s powers are, they are conduits for the UK government nothing more or less
Postmen/women/persons
@Dan.
I like your thinking
May & Mundell are gone. Nicola is still there. Seeing them off.
Try to keep up.
Another one gone, another one down, another hits the dust.
The SNP/Independence just gets stronger and stronger.
Just keep on voting for it. Make it happen. It works if it works. It won’t if you don’t.
Bob Mack I’ll save words.You are the red herring.Unionists are losing: losing their senses.
Cobblers!
for no particular reason
But I bet nobody can tell me WHY I’m wrong.
@Dr Jim,
I suppose thsts why Nicolas letter was addressed to
THE PRIME MINISTER.
@Famous15,
Frankly,the more words you save the better off we will all be for it.
@Dadsarmy,
cos they are shoemenders
You definitely do NOT want red herrings.
https://jamaicans.com/redherring/
Looks like a street accident, with Martian victims.
I stand ready to discuss so that I may formally take steps,,,, so on
It was a letter to discuss a section 30 yes but not a section 30 formal request because those steps are taken in the Scottish parliament first then voted on then formally requested, that was a personal letter to the Prime Minister to begin discussions which the Prime Minister declined
@Dr Jim,
so the letter was not asking the Prime Minister about her health w as it. it was about seeking discussions on a section 30 order. Correct?
Bob Mac , We have been through all this pish about Shetland/Orkney many times before ad nauseam. The Shetlanders are not a seperate people, DNA proves so, same for Orcadians even if they were and they decided to “Leave” Scotland they would have a little enclave with a maritime boundary of 12 miles , none of the Oil and Gas fields would go with them.
Im sure an Indy Scotland would not wish its oil and gas to be processed or transferred to a country outside its juristiction unless they were paying for it.
@Lenny Hartley,
very good !enny. Apparently Scots share much of English DNA as well. We seem however to think we are different in many ways. Which are you Lenny?
@Bob Mack
Damn!
Pretty much.
https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeon-s-section-30-letter-to-theresa-may/
“Let’s talk”
@Dadsarmy,
Thanks for posting that. nNow we all know what was asked for and why.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/09/30/johnsons-hot-air/#comments