The divided kingdom
So this is an interesting one. The UK government currently finds itself in an appalling mess over the UK’s post-Brexit relationship with Ireland, due to the inconvenient fact of a small part of Ireland being in the UK, and has no idea what to do about it.
The closest thing Westminster has to a plan – and it has to be said that it’s not VERY close to a plan – is the so-called “backstop”, which isn’t a backstop at all and merely kicks everything down the road a couple of years, and which the EU has already said is a non-starter.
The fallback on the backstop, as announced last December, is “regulatory alignment” on the island of Ireland, which would effectively mean Northern Ireland staying in the EU and a border coming into existence in the Irish Sea (or to be more geographically accurate, the North Channel).
This would be, um, bitterly opposed by the DUP, on whom Theresa May’s government notionally depends, but given the absolute trainwreck of Labour’s position on Brexit it’s not at all clear that the DUP’s opposition would be enough to scupper any vote, so it could happen anyway, opening a simply massive can of worms.
That’s about the shortest rendition of the situation we can manage. But of course, in reality it’s much more complicated than that.
Because since Northern Ireland and Scotland both voted to stay in the EU – Scotland by a particularly large margin – then any deal which effectively kept NI in Europe would be a huge benefit that Scottish people and businesses would want too.
The downside is that if such special status would necessitate customs and immigration checks in the North Channel – as it would have to – then obviously it would mean the same thing on the land border between Scotland and England.
But how would Scots feel about that? The answer surprised us a little.
According to our recent Panelbase poll, it turns out that a hard border at Berwick and Gretna is a price that Scottish voters are – by a margin of more than two to one – willing to pay to stay in the EU.
As we found yesterday, this is another question where Tories are isolated from the rest of Scotland. While SNP voters (even including the third of them who voted Leave) are absolutely overwhelmingly prepared to tolerate a hard border – presumably since it’d plainly be a further big symbolic and practical step towards independence – Labour and Lib Dem supporters also back the idea by more than 2:1.
Only Tories would be against the idea of Scotland having the same special status as Northern Ireland, and they’re only a quarter of Scottish voters and a fifth of MPs.
And the most intriguing thing about that is this: were it to happen, there’d clearly no longer be any need for a sea border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
That’s because NI would no longer be shut off from the rest of the UK, the situation that’s so intolerable to the DUP – instead it would be England and Wales that were effectively quarantined. The need for a hard land border on the island of Ireland could be avoided, replaced with one between Scotland and England which would have no implications for the Good Friday Agreement.
(Also, at just 96 miles the Scotland-England border is a lot shorter than the NI-Ireland one at 310 miles, and has many fewer crossings, so it’d be far easier to manage.)
Now, to say that such an arrangement would be controversial is like saying relations between Israel and Palestine are “a little tricky”. But remarkably, it appears to be the LEAST problematic of the solutions currently open to the UK government.
It would – we’ve just learned – be acceptable to the people of Scotland. It would, at a minimum, be LESS unacceptable to the DUP than any other option is. We know the English would go along with it, because we already know they’d happily cut Scotland and NI loose entirely to secure Brexit, never mind give them a half-and-half status.
And let’s be honest, nobody much cares what the Welsh think.
So there it is. We’ve solved the most unsolvable problem in British politics. Northern Ireland and Scotland get what they want – to basically stay in the EU as part of a Celtic substate with one foot in both camps. England and Wales also get what they want – to leave the EU. We don’t need to have a hard land border in Ireland, destroying the GFA, because the border between the EU and the UK will now be a much shorter and less bloodsoaked one located just north of Hadrian’s Wall.
(If, as pro-Brexit UK ministers keep claiming over Ireland, there’s an easy technological solution which can all but eliminate border friction and delays, then all the better.)
Pretty simple stuff, this politics lark, if you give it a moment’s thought.
Oh you are awful, but I like you!
As fair an exposition as I have heard from anyone on this topic (and one a few churnalists might very well plagarise).
I would be happy with this as a least worst option pending we see what we do for ourselves. The bottom line is though that the King and Country crowd are going to have longer faces than their horses on a cold boxing day pretend fox hunt. They are going to see it as an emasculation of the Empire or something. The ultra Unionists in Scotland will undoubtedly go purple with apoplexy…that alone sells it to me 🙂
How do you ensure that nothing goes to England/Wales directly from Northern Ireland?
Now , now , rev. ! You are in danger of showing up the wise people negotiating Brexit with this sort of intelligent compromise . That is not what Theresa wants . Lord knows what Theresa wants !
Tick, as they say, tock.
Everyone’s a winner. Simple once you think about it. I doubt the Tory regime are considering this as an option.
Simples !
It would be with great sadness that I stopped at the Gretna border post, the Proclaimers’ ‘Cap in Hand’ blaring at 11 from the automobile sound system but what must be must be.
jeez rev, thats so simple, it might just work
win, win situation
everybody happy
make it so, please
I think you’ve cracked it – you should get the SNP to propose that Westminster debate it asap.
Sunday 15th July around 4:00pm would be an ideal time…
This needs to be shared far and wide with the voters in England.
Incredible.
A GE might be easier to get the Tories out, They can’t afford Brexit. Even with the Hedge funds slush funds. They could always use the Pollsters to try and manipulate it with fraud. Short the £pound and leave everyone worse off. The poorer to pick up the cost. Just maybe the Police will sort them out for electoral fraud. It just needs prison as a deterrent for a patsy. It just might deter them. The Tories and their sychophants.
Now that, is brilliant.
Soartit. Ah fine hing.
Wheiys awe thae kye, cumin hame?
I can hear the folks in SW Scotland who work in Carlisle moaning as I type. Personally, I’m all for it:-)
And let’s be honest, nobody much cares what the Welsh think.
______
Whilst the majority of this article is useful and contributes much to the debate, you also need to remember that we have ports which face and do business with the Irish Republic.
Don’t go using hackneyed, Fleet Street tropes in denigrating natural allies. It does both you and the Scottish cause harm, when we are your natural friends and supporters- and indeed share the common enemies and make common cause.
Yes, maybe the stats show that the majority of Welshies who did vote (the usual “voice of the people” claptrap) voted for Brexit. But that shouldn’t allow the rest of us a voice and equality of respect – that which we (as you, in Scotland) we never get within this Disunited Kingdumb.
Oh man, this is good.
We could even use it to close the minimum pricing loopholes to keep the Daily Mail happy.
Brilliant. Let’s make you Prime Minister.
Well done that man!
Now all we need is to get it out there and promoted by all who are interested in the advancement of the two Kingdoms on they route they both want.
Welsh Sion
How did Welsh Wales vote? Was there a “Little England” effect along the border which tipped the scales. I know the margin was tight.
Of course its the sensible solution,not only that, everybody’s “roughly” getting what they voted for.
The EU could probably get on board too.
But it will never be an option.
Mainly because of the extra power’s that would need to come to Holyrood, to achieve it!
Powers that,as well as being the “Devo Max” that everyone imagined when its mentioned,would also probably involve opening the books.
But the biggest bug is the oil and gas…. Who would be exporting it to the EU and under who’s arrangements?
Westminster won’t open that can of worms.
Ian says:
4 July, 2018 at 11:59 am
How do you ensure that nothing goes to England/Wales directly from Northern Ireland?
Now that would be smuggling would it not?
It is probably the only reasonably pragmatic solution that might – just- be remotely acceptable to various parties. And a remarkably interesting one for Scotland.
It is, of course, possible for goods and people to go directly to England from Northern Ireland via Liverpool, and presumably other ports, so Mrs T. May would have to set up a coastal protection service which would no doubt be costly. And that will apply to all ports at present served by ferries to and from the Republic of Ireland. Also costly. Jings, that fairly eats into the extra cash for the NHS!
Arlene Foster has proposed a bridge to Scotland. Probably thinking that links Northern Ireland totally to UK. She’s really far-thinking and good at reading the runes, isn’t she?
“How do you ensure that nothing goes to England/Wales directly from Northern Ireland?”
You probably have to stop any official direct flights/sea crossings from NI to England/Wales and make people either go through Scotland or go from the Republic, where there are already controls in place because it’s already a foreign country. Could be fabulous news for Dundalk.
An inconvenience and not ideal for NI folk, sure, but that’s the sort of stuff that happens when major upheaval occurs. This omelette isn’t getting made without SOME eggs getting broken, I just can’t see any way to break any fewer than this.
Best of ALL Worlds.
At least for the moment.
Well hopefully some of the Carlisle folks domiciles in Gretna will be up for a house swap! ?
“Whilst the majority of this article is useful and contributes much to the debate, you also need to remember that we have ports which face and do business with the Irish Republic.”
That line was of course both a joke and a practical appraisal of the political situation. But Wales and Ireland will be foreign countries (to each other) after Brexit whatever happens, so my plan doesn’t change anything in that regard.
Ian says:
4 July, 2018 at 11:59 am
How do you ensure that nothing goes to England/Wales directly from Northern Ireland?
______________________________________________________________
All trade between NI, Scotland and England and Wales as to be rubberstamped on the Isle of Man before its journey can begin.
Trade between NI, Scotland and the EU remains unchanged, but becomes bonded if it travels through England.
Trade between the EU and England will be subjected to tariffs at point of entry.
Incase of dispute and joint agenceny can be set up on Rockall, staffed equally between the EU and whichever countries are involved. This would additionally settle the dispute over Rockall and brought into glorious song by the Woftones (Rock on Rockall (see youtube.com/watch?v=1maOiysZe-4)) and of course it would need proctection, which could be provided by the Russian Navy…they are there anyway! 😉
Wolftones, obviously!
Rev, You are a Genius!
You have the answer for the future!
Erika.
John Dickson says:
4 July, 2018 at 12:26 pm
Ian says:
4 July, 2018 at 11:59 am
How do you ensure that nothing goes to England/Wales directly from Northern Ireland?
We don’t ensure this!
England can have a go at it, but smuggling will be big business down South again and HMRC will lose a fortune through it.
N.Ireland and Scotland would have the EU trade agreement and you will most things cheaper, Human and Worker’s rights protected, we wouldn’t have the massive job loses that England and Wales will suffer due to Brexit.
Could result in an order for Scottish Navel Ships to patrol England’s coast line and maybe employers like Nissan will move North from Sunderland to stay free of English Trade Tariffs.
This is gold star thinking
@Patrick Roden says: 4 July, 2018 at 12:08 pm:
“This needs to be shared far and wide with the voters in England.”
Yeah! Why not, Patrick? After all we already share every other bloody Scottish asset with the Better Together Yoonatics – it’s just that the Better Together Yoonatics don’t want to share bugger all with the Scottish Separatists.
According to Google Maps there are only 29 road and track crossings that I can see over the Scotland – England border, thats a lot less than 300+ that has been quoted between Eire and NI.
Liz g: “But the biggest bug is the oil and gas… Who would be exporting it to the EU and under whose arrangements?”
Maersk, INEOS, Exxon, Chevron, BP, among many others; with trading arrangements organised by the likes of ICE Futures, and overall tax policy presumably by Westminster.
Hand and Shrimp @ 12:26 pm
Cymru/Wales and Brexit
_________
Here you go – as usual Google is your friend. (Me too, I hope!)
link to en.wikipedia.org
You will see, for example, that my unitary authority, Gwynedd, voted to Remain. However, it wouldn’t be right to put a demographic of Wallia pura voted Remain and the rest of Cymru voted to Leave (See for example, Monmouthshire – which also voted AGAINST increasing the National Assembly’s powers in the 2011 Referendum. It was the ONLY unitary authority so to do out of 22, and the margin was very close.)
I know of Welsh speaking Welshies who were passionate Leavers, and I know of in-comers who were also Europlhiles. You could say, on balance that the Cymry Cymraeg voted Remain and others did not – but that would be too simplistic. I know that I personally am still sore as a Remoaner and internationalist – and I still fight the good fight for independence for both Scotland and Cymru.
______
In other news, are you all aware that there are now Leadership campaigns on-going in ALL (bar one) political parties represented in the National Assembly? Plaid Cymru, Tories, Labour and UKIP are all now involved in Leadership contests.
The only Party NOT involved in a Leadership ‘battle’? The Lib Dems – but then they only have one (1) Assembly Member (and she’s also part of the ruling Labour Government’s Cabinet.
Interesting times!
Sure, if the EU pay for the wall. We might need to set up refugee camps on the border for our English friends when they try to escape their nation’s chaos after Brexit.
Brexit changes everything. I think some kind of hard border between Scotland and England is inevitable if Scotland manages to escape London’s clutches.
For trade control of course but probably more so for immigration control. I really think that the English economy will collapse after Brexit and Scotland would not otherwise be able to cope with the resulting huge numbers of economic refugees from South of the Border.
Just saying. If there is any jobs going that I have always wanted to be a border guard.
excellento
[…] Wings Over Scotland The divided kingdom So this is an interesting one. The UK government currently finds itself in an […]
The only way out of the mess would be for the 6 counties of the north to join the 26 counties of the south. That might prove to be difficult for the Tories as they need the DUP. No other way beyond fanciful technological system yet to be invented or developed.
Welsh Sion
We had a numpty Laybir heid bummer here saying that if Glasgow voted no in indyref1 then it should be allowed to stay in the UK.
Glasgow voted Yes, so by his logic, it is now independent.
@McBoxheid says: 4 July, 2018 at 12:41 pm:
” … All trade between NI, Scotland and England and Wales as to be rubberstamped on the Isle of Man before its journey can begin.”
But! But! But! The Isle of Man is not governed by the Westminster Parliament but is only a crown, (not United Kingdom Government), protectorate and it only gets EU consideration as a Crown, not a United Kingdom, protectorate. I believe it is classes as an Associate EU Member but associated of who or what?
Some time ago I foresaw this option.
I suggested the early preparations of our ports and airports for the shipping direct from the continent of our essentials. Aldi and Lidl will play, Tesco might now morph into Carrefour (woopee, great cheese)
A stockpile of razor wire and concrete blocks for the roads might also come in handy.
This way there are no losers, not in real terms. The Britnats/OO will not like it, but they will be technically still in the UK, just with hugely more powerful devolved governments.
So Scotland gets to stay in the EU, but for the time being we don’t have to use that nasty independence word. Scotland keeps everything it values and has a sort of Faroes with knobs on status.
NI keeps its’ open border, the DUP has no barrier between it and “Britain”(apologies to Peffers). Arlene might get her bridge.
In due time NI will vote to reunite the island of Ireland and Scotland will see the benefit of being completely independent.
England can now enjoy it’s freedom from Brussels and watch and learn how it gets on in comparison with its’ immediate neighbours.
Best solution I’ve heard for a long time.
Reluctant Nationalist @ 12.50
Having the Tax and Control of Oil and Gas at Westminster as it is now,would mean that the Oil and Gas are exported to the EU under LESS favourable arrangements than would be the case if it was exported from Scotland!
Would the Company’s then not want to lobby for Scotland to be exporting it in the EU internal market?
And as it is in Scottish Water’s would it not be as much of a Scottish produce as Wild Salmon?
I cannot see Westminster wanting to risk even the discussion around this,especially since Holyrood would get sight of the true figures for Oil and Gas revenue and reserves.
Which is why as brilliant as the Revs solution is,I don’t think this plan will see the light of day.
Maybe the whole of the UK should just join the Republic of Ireland.
Then we can give Scotland and Wales independence and have the Republic of Ireland and England.
Weechid at 12:19 pm
“I can hear the folks in SW Scotland who work in Carlisle moaning as I type.”
Might I suggest that they are the ones who back Muddel
and
“Personally, I’m all for it:-)” I’m with you on that
Genius level thinking Rev.
You’ve just saved the union.
Wait a minute…
“The only way out of the mess would be for the 6 counties of the north to join the 26 counties of the south.”
That is of course the simplest option technically and practically by a mile. But while it might not be all that far off, there’s no way it’s happening before Brexit.
Ireland doesn’t want a hard border between north and south.
Scotland, according to the Rev’s latest poll, doesn’t mind having a hard border between Scotland and England.
And how many times have we heard little Englanders shouting that they want to rebuild Hadrian’s Wall (and gifting a big chunk of north England to Scotland in the process one has to presume).
What’s not to like? Brexit solved. Let’s get to it.
“Genius level thinking Rev.
You’ve just saved the union.
Wait a minute…”
Have I, though? Or have I just eliminated one of the biggest psychological barriers to independence by ensuring that there’s a physical border anyway, so it can’t be used as an anti-indy scare story?
Would be the ultimate irony if it came off. We are dealing with a really thick as shit DUP , so no it wouldn’t be agreed by those knuckle draggers who think Global Warming is a myth.
May has plans to dissolve Holyrood, so she wouldn’t want to strengthen Scotland’s independence.
Which brings us back to point A – Independence is the only answer.
Fewer crossing huh? Take a look on Google Earth about the hill areas on the border. There are farm tracks which go right up to the border and over it sometimes with only a short gap, but not always. We’re not talking about public roads but roads which a Range Rover for eg could negotiate, with a full load and maybe a trailer.
The smuggling possibilities are much greater than you seem to appreciate Rev. I take your points about the economics of running booze across the border now due to minimum pricing but post that scenario the range of goods and people, don’t forget people, can be smuggled across the border increase quite a lot.
If I can spot this problem then so can the EU and they would insist on an overseen much harder border than at present. Think double fence with dog patrols in between the fences. There’s a long distance path (the Penine Way?) which crosses and recrosses the border several times, another gleaning from Google Earth scrivening.
That may not be so inconvenient in the hill country but it may well be in Coldstream say and on both coasts where the majority of traffic passes.
And of course if we succeed in reclaiming Berwickshire (part of the Scottish Crown) then much more of the border is along the middle of a wadeable/fordable river. Am I stood in the river fishing or am I about to wade across illegally? Sales of fishing waders rods and tweeds to illegal immigrants (rented at high cost by smugglers to immigrants) will soar. Vis the Syrian asylum seekers who worked their way up Russia then cycled across the Russian-Norwegian border in the far north.
Arlene’s proposed NI/Scotland bridge would make more sense now.
Probably get masses of EU funding towards it.
There was a mention of the Isle of Man earlier and, having read this was intrigued at the difference between it and us in Wales and Scotland.
Apparently, the IoM has a Sewell-like convention,
“The UK Parliament has paramount power to legislate for the Isle of Man on all matters but it is a long-standing convention that it does not do so on domestic matters without the Island’s consent.” (link to gov.im)
But note, that UNLIKE Scotland or Wales, that weasel word “normally” has not been inserted between “not” and “do”, which it does in our respective and governing pieces of Westminster legislation.
Interessant, non ? 🙂
Guilty confession: I suspect we may become very desirous of a hard border with England. The Tories are dragging the poor English towards fascism, ably supported by ‘Labour’. We could have a major problem of economic refugees. Wouldn’t it be poetic if English antipathy to freedom of movement came back to bite them in the arse?
An excellent option that has no chance of happening, not least because it would give Scotland more power and an economic advantage, two things the British establishment does not want to happen.
It’s much more likely that London would induce Ireland’s reunification and transfer a million plus loyalists to Scotland. Irish ‘problem’ solved and a guaranteed No vote at any indyref2.
“Fewer crossing huh? Take a look on Google Earth about the hill areas on the border. There are farm tracks which go right up to the border and over it sometimes with only a short gap, but not always. We’re not talking about public roads but roads which a Range Rover for eg could negotiate, with a full load and maybe a trailer.”
And you think that isn’t true about Ireland?
It’s very heartening that 53% would be happy to have a hard border between Scotland and England if it meant remaining in the EU. A hard border then is not quite as scary as Project Fear believed now that the UK is leaving the EU.
As usual it’s the Tory supporters hugely against it, I would love to know what the figures would be for Yes/No voters if you have them Rev.
I like it,not as good as independence,but would solve the immediate problem.
Now the hard bit.How to get the Tories to think it’s their idea,because they won’t listen to anyone else while it’s ‘their turn’ for the fancy London offices.
Sarah Smith from Peterhead on BBC lunchtime TV news giving a very UK centric view of British fishermen’s access to British Waters.
Why are the West Coast fishermen never quoted on TV?
@Muscleguy – the same is true of the Irish border only even more so. The Irish border crosses peoples’ private land, runs up the middle of a village street and crosses several bodies of water where the two governments have never agreed on where the border actually lies or which part of the water belongs to which country. There’s even a house in Monaghan where the border crosses through their house with the result that after several court battles they’ve been told they don’t have to pay a TV license in either country.
The Scottish border is 96 miles as opposed to the 310 miles border in Ireland. There are only a handful of practical crossings in Scotland (much of it is forest) whereas in Ireland houses and farms straddle the border and there are umpteen wee roads. It is a much neater solution.
Quite simple really. Just confine Brexit to those who voted for it, and let the rest of us carry on as normal.
Scotland will however need a hard border with England, but don’t worry, we will want one if we want to avoid inferior quality foodstuffs coming into Scotland via “UK” Supermarkets, with no traceability, but laced with GM components, steroids and growth hormones, with inferior labelling.
Personally, I’d actually demand a hard border to keep that muck out of Scotland, and I’d also like the EU to have our back, and the EUCJ be ready to clobber England with sanctions and fines if it was sloppy with its standards and convergence criteria, or willfully tried to undermine the integrity and EU compliance of Scottish produce.
This situation however creates a laughable Constitutional dogs breakfast. Say, England is Brexited 100%, Scotland remains in the EU or has a FTA which binds Scotland to European Law, and Scotland itself has a devolved Government in firm command of a popular majority… WHO is actually sovereign over Scotland? What Sovereignty does the EU defer to? Clearly it does, to prevent formal annexation of Scotland. What Sovereignty does the UK defer to? Clearly it does, if it accepts the European Court of Justice has final say over Scotland.
The only robust and logical Constitutional solution is for Scotland’s own Sovereignty to be recognised, and that in effect, is simply to BE Independent. No mandate required, no majority required, but merely Scotland formally recognised as Constitutionally Sovereign. Scotland is finally free of its 300 years of political entrapment.
” The need for a hard land border on the island of Ireland could be avoided, replaced with one between Scotland and England which would have no implications for the Good Friday Agreement. “
.. sheer brilliance Stu. You have solved the unsolvable and with ease!
Something for everyone!
We could remake Doomsday (link to imdb.com) but set ‘civilisation’ on the north side of the wall…
The fishermen overfished the sea. Throwing back dead fish for years. Black fish. Leading to a need for conservation. They should have been using bigger nets. Like Norway and
improved terms and conditions.
The rest is a red herring. A fishy tale. A slimy tail.
Whatever the outcome between EIRE-NI it will provide an indication about independent Scotlands possible future relationship with UK.
Another reason to wait and see what Brexit means 🙂
Schrodingers Brexit.
“Theresa May would seek passport checks between Scotland and England ”
link to theguardian.com
“Theresa May says she will ‘never accept’ border with Northern Ireland”
link to metro.co.uk
Robert Peffers says:
4 July, 2018 at 1:02 pm
@McBoxheid says: 4 July, 2018 at 12:41 pm:
” … All trade between NI, Scotland and England and Wales as to be rubberstamped on the Isle of Man before its journey can begin.”
But! But! But! The Isle of Man is not governed by the Westminster Parliament but is only a crown, (not United Kingdom Government), protectorate and it only gets EU consideration as a Crown, not a United Kingdom, protectorate. I believe it is classes as an Associate EU Member but associated of who or what?
__________________________________
Thanks for that! I realise that it is only a crown protectorate and not under the control of the UK Government. It has links to both the crown and the EU and therefore however a possible compromise. It was meant to be a tongue in cheek solution. Particularly the Rockall bit, obviously.
Liz g @ 1.05pm
To your first question: yes; to your second question: it depends on whether export arrangements to non-EU countries will negate the effect of a 3% EU tariff; to your third question: yes.
A GE might come sooner before any border question can be settled. The saga could drag on and on.
It probably looks as though, post-Brexit, NI will likely remain part of the EU in some shape or form. There doesn’t seem any way around this.
Since Scotland ALSO voted to remain in the EU by a margin of 62%-38%, then exactly WHY shouldn’t the people of Scotland have their will honoured?
This is 67% in this poll preferring to have an Anglo-Scottish hard border to being chucked out the EU. That is 5% MORE than the Scottish EU referendum result. Positions definitely seem to be hardening and moving our way.
Well done, I am sure the media will pick this up, ask for your article to put on the front pages and run with it!
Looks like a win win situation, I wonder what the rEU would say to this, they want a simple solution as possible so let’s hope they see it as a realistic option, after all, the useless Britnat incompetents at WM have come up with absolutely nothing workable so far.
The Tories really do want their cake and eat it don’t they. Not reknowned for playing fair or clean though, if they don’t get their own way.
Fewer Crossings?
Look at the borders between Switzerland and the various EU states. There are border posts on the motorways but not on all minor roads – despite Schengen, and Switzerland being in EFTA not the EU. There are paths and tracks all over the place. Unless we’re talking about barbed wire on top of the Matterhorn?
@Sinky
The BBC agenda is not even hidden now.
Today – very upbeat report on UKGov proposals, only interview the people who are going to be supportive. Scottish government being awkward, not exact words but you get the inference.
Yesterday – drugs death high, all attributed to Scotgov, no mention of UKgov involvement with drugs policy.
They need to destroy the Scotgov reputation, it’s been their task since the 2015 election result. The establishment were shocked by this result as they thought the 2014 campaign by the media would wipe out the SNP. Instead the SNP membership has only increased.
Thanks for that! I realise that it is only a crown protectorate and not under the control of the UK Government.
Edit: Direct control
…now that is a very big stirring spoon you are wielding!
The problem is that the Tory cabinet will NEVER agree on any solution.
Yep. I’ve been challenged about this on other blogs and have always replied if that’s what it takes, so be it. Let’s get ready for our border posts – and the jobs, infrastructure etc. resulting from that! PS to Proctor Lewis at 11.57 – thank you for reminding me of the late great Dick Emery – but the quote does somewhat date us!
Now here’s my thought of the day!
Firstly let me state 100% I want a fully iScotland in the EU. However, Stu’s plan is an excellent half way house. Dare I suggest it would in effect deliver the elusive DevoMax. Lots of new powers would need to be devolved to NI and Scotland to make this work.
So here’s a thought. Why not have a referendum in Scotland asap on Stu’s plan? Like everything else it needs a few Brexit dominos to fall into place, but we should know the NI situation very soon.
So IF conditions are right, call a referendum demanding the same deal as NI.
Get this right and it could be 70% YES.
I would honestly put off IndyRef2 for 5-10 years is this virtually guaranteed to win first huge step was achieved.
And here’s the icing- if WM won’t deliver the outcome of SameAsNIRef, go for an immediate IndyRef2.
^ Switzerland is part of the single market (but outside EU).
Different circumstance to what the Tories want for UK.
@Proud Cybernat – I think the real answer to your question is that the UK government aren’t interested in honouring the wishes of the people in any part of the UK, they’re only interested in appeasing Rees Mogg and his ilk and holding the Tory party together.
If it wasn’t for the Irish government, backed up by the EU, they would have already thrown NI under a bus too.
About half the Scottish-English border is defined by waterways requiring a bridge point to cross, unless you are willing to swim or wade.
galamcennalath says:
4 July, 2018 at 2:17 pm
Now here’s my thought of the day!
Very well thought out too!
It gives the people of England and Wales what they voted for, chlorinated chicken, hormone infused beef, private healthcare. Keeps Scotland’s produce free from contaminants.
It looks like the hard Scotland/England border is the best that can be hoped for in these negotiations. It is no longer a red line to me, it is in fact looking like a desirable outcome.
Now we just need to find out what Dantalion Broon thinks about it.
The biggest threat to the UK is not from the YES movement, but from the hardcore British Nationalist side.
The Tories and the DUP are so desperate to turn us into a single unitary country, that they are unwittingly speeding up the demise of the UK. “Never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake.”
Let’s look at what’s happening:
The DUP continue to insist that NI should exit the single market/customs union with the rest of the UK.
The Tories continue to fight amongst themselves.
A hard brexit is on the horizon.
The powers grab has already happened and soon the UK Supreme Court will rule against Holyrood’s Continuity Bill. All the chips are falling nicely into place for Indyref2 (and a YES win).
Sadly I cannot vote in Indyref2 as I’m moving to Japan to be with my beautiful Japanese wife (the Home Office won’t let her live in Scotland with me) – but I will be flying my Saltire from Kyushu on that all important day. I will make sure my children learn all about their special Scottish heritage.
Go on Nicola! Do your thing!
Sounds good to me…
BRILLIANT !!!!
Get this sent straight away to Guy Verhofstadt and Michel Barnier. 😉
Give them something new from the most innovative folk in the world, represented by the Rev. in “Barf”, New Scotlandshire.
Something to chew on an’ spit onto May’s negotiating table..!
Awe thae new joabs, fur thoan watch-toourrs oan wurr boardurr.
Wae ah supply ah ‘Gatlin-Guns’, fae yoan hauf-Lewis foartae-fifth.
Is this option 4 for WM to take in to negations on the back of a fag box.
@Guy Threepwood
Come back to Scotland to vote in indyref2 if you possibly can. Consider it an investment in winning you, your wife and your children the right to live in an independent Scotland, in Europe, with its own immigration service that actually has a care for people’s fundamental human rights – whatever the origins the accident of birth has given them.
I see some are concerned that the SNP Claim of Rights debate could remove the sovereignty of the Scottish people. I’m not sure how this can be, since as we are sovereign then only we can vote to remove this sovereignty, it can’t be done by people of another country. They can only have a view on whether they respect this right that is currently I believe in the statute.
If they do not respect this then I would presume a majority of MSP’s voting for independence then makes Scotland independent since they are then resorting to parliamentary rules (could use the majority of Scottish MP’s at Westminster, same difference currently).
They either can support the majority of Scots or the majority of representatives, there is no other choices.
Oh my. Chances of anything like this happening about zero with the present set of ferrets in charge in London, or the ferrets-in-waiting either for that matter, but this is great fun anyway!
Oh naughty Stu, did you really have to stick the knife in with this trailing barb? =laugh=
Proud Cybernat says:
Yes indeed. Subtle signs are everywhere. That’s what getting the BritNats all in a fluster.
I’ve got 200 spare bricks for a border post.
This is a great series of questions because it highlights starkly how the Tories are alone in the world of Scotland, ranged against the SNP, Labour and LibDems voters who are prepared to support Scotland, unlike the Tories.
For a time Labour and LibDems were able to support the skirts of the Tories, when it was a “preserve May’s precious Union”, but it’s becoming very clear that that is NOT at all costs.
It leaves Labour and the LibDems in the position they can support Devolution and keep their voters happy with that.
There is another thing which will come more and more into play over the next few weeks not months, and that’s the recent SSAS which shows that it’s still only 8% who want to see Holyrood abolished. This will become more and more in stark contrast to the 27% who currently intend voting Conservative in Scotland.
So what is their priority, these 27% of voters, Tory policies, or keeping the Devolution they support? It’s fertile ground for Labour and the LibDems to exploit to increase their own share of the voter support – and the SNP and Greens of course.
The best thing for Scotland would be if support for the Tories fell below 10%. Perhaps then they’d reform and think of Scotland first.
OT sorry
Anybody know what time the Debate on our Claim if Right starts?
Thanks in advance
>i>Welsh Sion @ 13:20:
Yes, it was always my contention leading up to 2014 and even more in the aftermath, that the so-called “Devo Max” was never going to make us anything like the equivalent of the wee Isle of Man.
And so it has proved. Even the little we did receive is now being sneakily clawed back.
Not even Stu’s ingenious “solution” to the Brexit dilemma – for which I promptly nominate him for the next Nobel peace prize =grin= instead of that Yankee spiv – will fix that. (As I’m sure he well knows.)
It’s just a pity that Wales is tucked away geographically where it is, and apparently still locked in political stasis, or we could have a proper federation together…
Guybrush Threepwood @ 14:26,
O/T (Apologies!) Hi there Guybrush! Me and the kids have always enjoyed your adventures. Now you’re sailing off to Japan, eh? But as you know, the real treasure is back here at home… =grin=
@jfngw
It’s a curious one. I agree it can’t take away our sovereignty as that is not in Westminster’s control. Perhaps it’s along the lines of getting France, Germany, the US to recognise the sovereignty of the Scottish people – i.e. a foreign government.
I also presume it’s been run past Wolffe, the advocate general for Scotland, and “our man”. I think it’s a win-win trap, but then I’m the eternal optimist.
@Liz g
It is on immediately after the Ivory Bill which is being debated now. I’d guess not too long then.
How could you, Rev?! You want to divide Britain! You want to put borders between us and our friends and family in England! How could you! Don’t you know that solidarity ends at the cliffs of Dover? We’re only meant to hate those nasty Europeans, not our fellow Brits!
We will make foreigners of ourselves, the unionists cry. And this is a bad thing because…?
@ Edward Freeman at 2.44pm
Thank you.
@ jfngw at 2.44pm
I agree with you on the Claim of Rights, though I am not sure where sovereignty truly lies within Scotland as I have heard conflicting opinions within the YES movement.
The ‘single, unitary UK’ British Nationalists will never allow Scotland to remain in the single market and customs union – they view us as no more important than Lincolnshire County Council.
This doesn’t sound too much different from an earlier suggestion that England and Wales leave the EU and the rest of us stay in.
@ Robert J. Sutherland at 3.09pm
Well since my swashbuckling days fighting the ghost pirate LeChuck are long behind me – Monkey Island has become a rather boring place.
You should see the price of grog there now!
This doesn’t sound too much different from an earlier suggestion that England and Wales leave the EU and the rest of us stay in.
Difference now, though, is that the Rev has conducted a poll that shows Scots would happily have a hard Brexit border with England in order to keep our EU status. It was never before considered a ‘serious’ proposition because the conventional wisdom was that Scots would not want a hard Brexit border with England (the position the SNP are arguing for). The Rev’s poll findings make it a more realistic proposition. Whether there is any political will to make it happen is another matter.
I think it is likely there will be some debate about the sovereignty, as I suspect when these documents were written the will of the people is unlikely to have included all of the people, same is true of England’s Magna Carta.
After all the Union was not agreed by the people of Scotland, they seem to have been mostly against it.
Ukania/Ukak/Ukeich or, if u prefer UKGBNI is causing, by design, mischief max in Scotland. The divide em, rule em ploy is back in action. Being had, being taken for a ride, being the biggest mug on the European block needs fixing. We need to kick this stasis, as the Brit establishment engages in mutual political onanism, owre the proverbial dyke along with the shifty, cocky North Brit double-dealers.
A massive serving of Nat Mischief….bring it on please, along with tasty side orders of disruption.
This may be a far fetched idea – I know nothing bout borders between countries and the nitty gritty of how they’re policed, but…
if there were a hard border between Scotland and England, couldn’t there be a lane on the main routes where regular crossers (such as those working on “the other side”) had a tag in their vehicle and as long as they were on their own, could go through this fast lane to and from work.
A bit like the TAG lanes on the M6 toll…
When we get a hard border between Scotland and England (I agree with Chick McGregor 12.51) think of the benefits to an even more economically challenged England. You could give the new unemployed work to build the new Hadrian’s wall (lets give it a modern name, say Theresa’s folly) in the same way that in the 1930’s we built the hydro dams in Scotland.
A border control of some description will be needed once we are independent in ordr to track customs tarrifs and immigration even if we are not in the EU. No worries this happens all over the world.
Good idea Stu…
There was a proposal made by Dr Brendan O’Leary, the ‘Dal Riada document’, which offers a blueprint for exactly this that might be worth reading link to centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk
In any case, even NI simply staying in the CU is not enough to avoid a hard border as a simple CU doesn’t ensure the same sanitary regulations. This might, in theory, be solvable by the entire UK staying in “regulatory alignment” with the EU – but that would mean the UK continuing to enforce regulations made by the EU – an EU in which it would now have no representation – indefinitely. It is hard to see how this squares with the Brexiteers desire to ‘take back control’, so it’s hard to see Boris et al accepting it.
I’m currently writing a piece on this. Perhaps May is ignoring this, perhaps she knows there’s no solution and is hoping that when it come down to the wire she can persuade the DUP that it’s all the EU’s fault and she has no choice… Do the DUP want to ring down the Tory Gov and risk a Corbyn government? THAT would be the question.
Either way, it’s going to come down to a hard choice between upsetting the DUP or a hard, no deal Brexit (or maybe more fudge and a further extension of ‘transitional’ arrangements).
A small criticism, if I may, “such special status would necessitate customs and immigration checks in the North Channel”. No, not unless the Common Travel Area (CTA) was abandoned and either the Republic or the UK joined the Schengen Area (neither are currently members exactly because of the British Isles wide CTA), The UK and Ireland currently have a common external border in the form of the CTA which has been in existence since the 1920s. It is not clear why this would change because of Brexit – the REAL ‘borders’ problem is trade.
More on the CTA here:
link to citizensinformation.ie
What happens to Ireland will be of large significance to Scotland. The EU seems fully behind the ROI; let’s hope that continues.
I don’t care how many times I say this: Britnats are destroying their own so-called precious united kingdom. It’s beautiful to witness.
OT
Journalist that believe they are working to uncover ‘the truth’ for the people. They are either working for a newspaper that’s stance is decided by usually a foreign owned billionaire, or directly financed by the government (with the journalist placement now often both).
They are not revealing the truth, they are reporting what the money provider decides they can reveal. And produce whatever propaganda they decide is required.
The only journalists that are reporting without pressure from their owners are those which have no owners. They may still be biased, but it is their own opinion, not written to others requirements.
Hard lines to all those who aspired to the pinnacle of a BBC journalist just to find out you end up the ‘impartial’ UK governments mouthpiece, some of them seem to relish it though.
@Dan Huil
Ah well, the united kingdom will survive perfectly well after Independence, in its component parts. It’s the PU – Precious Union – is knackered!
My OT comment by the way is because it’s getting to the stage hardly anything is OT, hence the blank. It’s shaping up to be the Summer of Content for iScotland, and anything goes including the Union.
All this talk of anglo hard border, isn’t it a little premature? If we are still part of the UK after Brexit is completed we will be in a totally new game, one whose rules will not be set by ‘outsiders’.
The mood among England’s rulers is for no nonsense from provincials, that’s us, getting in the way of the new order blueprint they keep out of sight but whose ‘libertarian’ schematics can be guessed.
Beware Scots eg Fox & Gove, especially when telling tales of life post EU.
This is win win scenario .
I’m super cool with that solution.
Not so sure about the Warminster fuckwits will be keen to lose our assets though…..
The are those jam exports though, lol
I reckon the Rev. deserves some sort of peace price for that deconstruction. From a critical realist, post-colonial feminist perspective, Britain’s political geography badly needs decolonising, and political agency distributed in a more ethical, pluralist manner. That’s won’t happen though, so Scotland must emancipate itself from the cultural chauvinism and rational paternalism that is British nationalism.
Julian Go’s Post-Positivist, Postcolonial Realism
link to criticalrealismnetwork.org
Highland Wifie
Apologies for the delay in getting back to you re. the % of Scots who self-identify as Scots. That was the link I was thinking about, so my memory was in error if the figure isn’t there. Thanks to Holly Teine for spotting mistake, if I was in error.
Capella
My tongue was firmly in my cheek but evolutionary political psychology does link evolutionary and political sciences.
Evolutionary Political Psychology
link to pure.au.dk
The Scottish/English border would be easy to operate, because there are so few freight capable crossings. The back roads don’t matter.
Obvious precedent is Norway/Sweden, which is a long border, with dozens of unmanned crossings. The lorries go on the main road via the official crossings, because it’s cheaper than grinding over minor roads
Surprised by the poll results on this issue but your solution was really elegant, Rev.
Pity you weren’t around to solve the Schleswig Holstein Question…
Result just completed on the Ivory Bill debate. Scotland’s Claim of Right debate up next, so about to start.
I reckon on current performance it may take a few lifetimes for Scot Nats to finally ‘clock’ the true nature of the beast they’re up against. Too many fancy they’ll get a soft exit from the Union. It will be, if even realised, as hard as the Unionists will make it.
I’m not being pessimist, simply the realist Devil’s Advocate. There are no soft models for dismembering a 300 year old unitary state and IT has zilch to do with it.. Breaking up is raw, nasty and needs nerves of steel, ask any exasperated EU negotiator.
Promoting such a solution would be a great benefit to the cause, even if it never looks to us informed (or the Tories) like a realistic potential outcome. Logic put aside.
The effect on the collective population’s directly, and further afield with our Euro pals, would fair throw the consciousness of many into dissonance.
Go for it Stu. Big it up.
Not sure if anyone’s said it before, but you really are quite good at this sort of stuff.
Bathgate Academy (?) didn’t hinder me too much either. 78
Too many fancy they’ll get a soft exit from the Union. It will be, if even realised, as hard as the Unionists will make it… Breaking up is raw, nasty and needs nerves of steel, ask any exasperated EU negotiator.
Who knew?
Thepnr @ 5.12
Looking like they are wasting time now
They have gone back to the Ivory bill
@Welsh Sion says: 4 July, 2018 at 1:20 pm:
” … Apparently, the IoM has a Sewell-like convention,
“The UK Parliament has paramount power to legislate for the Isle of Man on all matters but it is a long-standing convention that it does not do so on domestic matters without the Island’s consent.”
(link to gov.im)
If I were you, Welsh Sion, and I’m not, I wouldn’t place too much credence upon the claims of the situation according to the de facto parliament of the country of England who also claim ultimate sovereignty over the people of Scotland under English Law established long before there was a Treaty of Union that formed a bipartite United Kingdom.
The three Crown Protectorates are not under the Westminster government’s sovereignty as the Westminster parliament is not the elected Parliament of England as no such parliament has sat since 1707. and it was NOT the United Kingdom Parliament the King Billy & Queen Mary delegated their sovereignty to in 1688. Note they still remain legally sovereign under English Law and only legally delegated the sovereignty of the crown of the Kingdom of England but when did the crown of Scotland lose sovereignty to the people of Scotland it the legal proof that is in question and that was most certainly made clear in 1320.
Westminster’s claims of being sovereign are quite simply gobbledegook. In 1688 the Parliament of the Kingdom of England had already, (illegally even under English law), annexed the Principality of Wales and (illegally even under English Law), annexed all Ireland and forced upon them the English Rule of Law.
So, in 1688, when the parliament of the Kingdom of England deposed James II of England it was only the Parliament of England that was in rebellion against the King of England because the deposed English monarch was also the King of Scots of the still independent Kingdom of Scotland.
Hence the monarch’s twin titles of James II of England and VII of Scots because monarchs in Scotland have not been legally sovereign since 1320 under Scottish Law and are still not legally sovereign even under The English Rule of Law as used by Westminster.
There is absolutely no legal evidence to back up Westminster’s claims of sovereignty over any other parts of the United Kingdom – other than that Westminster says it is so. In 1688 the parliament of the Kingdom of England had asked Princess Mary of Orange if she would accept the Crown of the Kingdom of England but Mary refused. She did not want her Husband Billy to be her consort. The English rebels then offered the English Crown to the couple as joint monarchs and they accepted but they had to legally delegate their sovereignty to the Parliament of England but, in 1688, the Parliament of the Kingdom of Scotland was still independent and had not deposed James II Hence the Jacobite Uprisings still being fought over in 1745 at Culloden.
Now “tac tent”, (pay attention), we have just had a Scottish MP stand up in the Westminster Parliament and throw down the gauntlet with a challenge that Westminster is not sovereign over Scotland. It was reported here on Wings but pretty much not mentions by the media. None the less it is recorder in Hansard.
Now I commented to you a long time ago that the best chance Wales has of gaining independence is by waiting for Scottish independence and following Scotland out of the Union.
If we can legally make our people’s sovereignty stick – and that in the international courts – it will be easy for Wales and N.I. to follow suit.
The difference in the cases lies in the timings. When England forced her sovereignty upon both Wales and Ireland the rule of law in all three monarchies was Divine Right of Kings but the England that had already annexed both Wales and Ireland changed to being a Constitutional Monarchy in 1688 before the Treaty of Union of 1706/7.
@Liz g
Does look a bit like time wasting, theyv’e had the vote and should exit stage right.
Speaker has just said they have another 15 minutes to speak, so CoR debate probably due to start 18:00.
Denmark is in the EU and yet parts of it are out of the EU. The UK could do the same. The precedent is there.
A large majority of the people of Scotland voted Remain, so that’s the position the Scot Govt should have fought for, as the people are sovereign, not the Scot Govt or UK Govt or EU for that matter.
That’s what should have happened, what happens now with Scotland or N.I. ?
Who knows?
@McBoxheid says: 4 July, 2018 at 1:56 pm:
” … It was meant to be a tongue in cheek solution. Particularly the Rockall bit, obviously.”
No worries, McBoxheid, I read it as tongue-in-cheek but, as I pointed out in earlier comments, even my close family never know when I having them on or when I’m serious.
Mind you even when I’m having them on there will usually be a serious bit in there somewhere.
Off topic I know but I’m not on twitter. I am truly horrified to see the cover of an old copy of The Week, which I believe is or was an insert for Scotland on Sunday, showing the saltire as a swastica with an article under the heading of Klan Alba. Surely that was beyond the pale. It’s on the Joy Brahim twitter feed. And given the tenor of the comments on Todd Ferguson, no evidence of any change of direction. And this from Scotland’s MSM. Was there ever any investigation of/apology for this?
Apologies. Predictive text at its worst. Klan Alba (not Caesar).
I don’t see us disagreeing, Robert Pefffers on any score – and am in full agreement that there needs to be a lot more maturity on the part of Plaid Cymru and those Welshies of other parties and none who are actively seeking independence. Perhaps a new leader of Plaid, perhaps realisation of what Brexit will really mean, perhaps a growth in the momentum of Yes Cymru, perhaps the cross-fertilisation of ideas with Scotland and others will all help the cause.
That’s why I’m pleased to work with both national movements in Scotland and Wales so as to share these ideas. I do not profess to know enough about Scottish history to pronouce fully on it – and my eztra reading and presence here ensures I learn more. I do however have a certain knowledge of my own country’s history and contemporary politics – all of this I happily share with yourselves, admin permitting. We do, after all, as eny fule kno, share the same enemies ultimately.
Build that wall!
The more I listen to Ian Blackford the more I like him and the greater my respect for him.
Thepnr @ 6.14
Yip he’s really getting into his stride
Colin Alexander @ 17:40,
Well, whaddya know? Mr Last-Hope of the Federalists speaks.
Sensible or a Stu leg-pull (or both), Colin, it’s never gonna happen. If any good sense, respect and moderation had existed among those who really matter in the Unionist Camp, your reformed Union would have happened long ago.
For them though it has always been London or bust.
So we’re going to have bust.
And the sooner the better now, so we can get on with building a bright new future for ourselves instead of wasting brain power and energy trying to keep this clapped-out old Union running on only one stuttering cylinder.
@Welsh Sion says: 4 July, 2018 at 6:03 pm:
I used to Visit Wales at least a couple of times each year, Welsh Sion, and made a lot of good friends. My late wife and I. many long years ago, had befriended a young Welsh couple and their brood who had just finished kitting out an old commercial van as a motor home. They were on their first weekend trial run when we met them.
We were about to pack-up for the journey back to Scotland to visit with friends who ran a caravan site on Skye. The young man was unemployed and times were really bad in Wales at that time but the family decided, on the spur of the moment, to come with us to Skye. I’ll cut this short and get to the point.
When we got to Skye the Welsh family were enchanted by both the island and its people. I suggested to the chap that Skye, at that particular time, was crying out for new blood but any that was settling seemed to be retiring English people which was not really what Skye needed as the need was for new young blood not old retirees.
We had a serious chat and I informed him that there were several really good schemes that would provide grants for hard workers to work and buy a croft but on condition it was a working croft and not a retirement home.
We subsequently kept in touch for some years until my late wife and we had our vehicle, and ourselves, wrecked by a drunk driver and after a long struggle my wife died and I lost contact with our friends on Skye.
However, the last we heard was that they were very, very happy and making a great success as crofters on Skye. Needless to say our friends, already Welsh Nationalists had become great supporters and members, of the SNP. I often wonder if they are still settled on the island.
@Liz g says: 4 July, 2018 at 6:23 pm:
“Thepnr @ 6.14
Yip he’s really getting into his stride.
Strikes me that he isn’t the only one flexing their muscles down in deepest Londinium. That whole team is really great and have learned their trade very well indeed. I can honestly day I cannot detect a dud one in the entire SNP contingent at Westminster.
Chick McGregor says:
4 July, 2018 at 12:51 pm
“Brexit changes everything. I think some kind of hard border between Scotland and England is inevitable if Scotland manages to escape London’s clutches.
For trade control of course but probably more so for immigration control. I really think that the English economy will collapse after Brexit and Scotland would not otherwise be able to cope with the resulting huge numbers of economic refugees from South of the Border.”
I agree I also think that business is a big factor in any future Scottish referendum. I remember people saying that some firms and unions were telling workers “You’ll vote no if you expect to keep your jobs”
Brexit shifts that now where business realises that the only way to keep trade borders open is to be a part of a single market. If they are closed from that the’ll move. It’s already happening. A new referendum could change that but we all know that we’ll have to endure some more pain before enough eyes are opened to get the vote over the line.
Electoral registration cards appearing through doors. No register to vote adverts appearing. Looks like GE coming folks!
Just a few thoughts in the wake of last night’s England win.
On paper, they are the highest-ranked and supposedly strongest team left in their side of the draw – they should therefore, make it all the way to the final.
However, Sweden has a long history of bursting England’s bubble.
Of the four teams in the other side of the draw, only Uruguay (14) to England’s (13) are lower ranked – England always lose to the first higher-ranked team they meet, the draw-back this time is, that will be in the final.
IF they win, even if the get to the final and lose narrowly, their media will go so far over the top (they have started already) their reaction may well push quite a few soft Noes into the Yes camp.
If they win, they might become so sure of themselves and of Brexit, they will forget how much they need us and decide – we’ve won the World Cup, we are the greatest, we don’t need those whinging subsidy-junkie Sweaties and not put up a fight to keep us.
Almost, but not quite, turning me into an England fan.
Should be New register to vote adds!!
Robert Peffers @ 7.04
Yes Robert every single one of them.
But I must admit Joanna Cherry is my favourite!
Regards England. I often hear Brit Scots saying they have nothing against the team it’s the commentators.
They voted to have colonial broadcasters so suck it up. Personally I don’t like their fans or commentators. The team are ok though.
Luke Graham, claim of right debate. Ignorant bast**d. Scottish NationalisT Party. Is he Scottish with a rose tattoo on his ass?
Now you’re just effing with the Tories heads now Stu
you can’t be giving them sensible solutions when complicated ones which can lead to wealth and unbenighted power and can be gotten for just the sacrifice of a few gunshot wounds and the odd bomb bang and a bit of destruction are all that’ll happen
They’re only Paddies Jocks and bogtrotting no users anyway so who’ll miss a few, C’mon the Tories!
Patricia Gibson is feisty 🙂
OMG that Gaffney Guy is embarrassing
He can’t even read his script
Hugh Gaffney Labour needs to go on elecution lessions never mind diversity training ???
Tommy Sheppard is a magnificent orator.
Will this debate on the Claim of Right go to a vote? Doubt it, put nothing on record so the speaker won’t call a division.
Hope I’m wrong.
Just watched an American TV show called Salvation and saw a Saltire among member country flags of an international science agency.
Like to think a friend was sending a message.
Re 7.38 pm
Oh no, not another. Stuart Andrew, (very Scottish sounding) Claim of right debate.
Scottish NationalisT Party.
re: continuing conversation about English Football team.
Quite a few in at work were really getting stuck into both the English team and the commentators. If England does go all the way, the except media ‘love in’ that will go on for years and an Indy referendum does happen in the next year, there could well be a lot of No voters moving over.
Oh well, that’s that. I couldn’t watch much more of this so I’m thankful that important debates on Scotland only happen now and again.
Sounds weird but who really could listen to Stephen Kerr, Douglas Ross, Luke Graham, Ian Murray or Hugh Gaffney for very long without getting a headache.
Look forward to Jeremy Corbyn making the case for a public holiday when we vote Yes in Indyref2 to mark a day of national celebration.
@Liz g says: 4 July, 2018 at 7:28 pm:
” … Yes Robert every single one of them.
But I must admit Joanna Cherry is my favourite!”
I must admit Joanna was probably my favourite also but I could never really choose between Dr Philippa Whitford and Ms Cherry.
And now there is another fine example of the traditional strong Scottish woman in politics. Our history is full of such great ladies but in days of yore they were kept in the background but were, so to speak, “The powers behind the thrones”.
A guest at my late (second), wife and my wedding reception was Margo McDonald and I met Winnie Ewing on many occasions. The SNP has been blessed with many such great ladies and is all the better for that.
I was just commenting earlier that I remember when Wingers were complaining, (much as they do now about our more elderly voters), that it was the female voters who were holding back independence.
I said then that this would be a really good thing as it indicated the ladies were NOT just following their hearts but giving the matter of independence much more thought and careful consideration and I thought that when they did make their minds up they would show up many of those who complained about them – and so it has proven.
It seems the tactics are now to go for Ian Blackford and to attempt to destroy his character at every opportunity?
Tories, Labour, and the execrable Lib-Dems are so transparent – pretending they are the grown-ups and diminishing anything that we feel passionate about as silly, even telling us what we should use debating time for. The entitlement they feel they have to be the custodians of those green benches is nauseating.
Christine Jardine is fast becoming the person I most despise in Scottish politics for the patronising and arrogant way she thinks she speaks for Scotland whereas Joanna Cherry is the wingman everyone needs, so glad she is in our corner.
I really liked the point Tommy Sheppard made about responsibility is not the same as power and that should be hammered home every time they bring up the ‘bloated SNP government’.
Christine Jardine is as thick as mince.
do you think bertie Armstrong will run a gunboat between his place of birth and Scotland to stop nasty irish fishermen (the southern type) using up his brit fish?
I hope the other fishing interests and producers (not just berties team) speak up more for their interests such as inshore / creel fishing. The last thing we need is to give fishing licences to some greedy north east coast fishermen (who would gladly sell you their fishing quota) whether you are foreign or not. Scottish government should say that licences will go to new licence holders resident in Scotland. That will give a few ex captains the hump in Marbella. It would annoy the tories too which is always welcomed.
The Claim of Right debate is quite the bear trap.
You either believe that the population of a country has the right to choose its own government and form of government, or you don’t. It’s a very simple question with a binary answer. Yes or no.
No semantics. No ah buts. No particular situations or circumstances. No ‘normally’. Yes or no.
Now we know what the Conservatives think of Holyrood and peoples rights. Labour and the Libdems? Have a really, REALLY, good think and choose your next words wisely.
Or not.
ot
By chance walking past a graduation ceremony. Fantastic weather , parents, grandparents wider family and friends all enjoying their day. Young adults, older mature students with many languages being spoken but all together. My kind of Scotland
Best bit? some young folk. tHE guys wearing kilts , girls with tartan plaid. They looked proud to be there- and so they should be- but as I walked past they were speaking Polish.
Well done to them , well done to Scotland.
Tam the Bam @ 9.19pm
With respect, I have come across some gey thin, watered-down mince. I humbly suggest, when referencing Ms Jardine – and several other red, yellow and blue Tories – you perhaps use a phrase much loved by the farming community here in God’s County of Ayrshire.
That expression is: “he/she is as thick as shite in the neck of a bottle.” Much better, I feel.
Hamish @ 9.45
When my son graduated from Dundee Uni in 2000 all the men who were his flatmates wore kilts, including the Englishmen.
All very proud of them and very welcome.
“Northern Ireland and Scotland get what they want – to basically stay in the EU as part of a Celtic substate with one foot in both camps.”
Is there any provision in the EU rules for parts of a country to be a part member of the EU?
Rock (5th December 2017 – “From the archives”):
“An open Irish border would be nothing less than a backdoor entry for the UK into the European Single Market and the other way round.
A massive fudge opening the door even wider to massive corruption.
The only reason it might happen is both the UK and the European Union are massively corrupt politically.
The “plebs” of the UK democratically voted to get out of the EU and the single market, not for a fudge to protect the City of London.
As for Scotland, Nicola spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
As a result, instead of being on the verge of independence, Scotland and its political leaders helplessly and cluelessly look on at the theatre going on.”
STILL POSITIVE
and so you should be
rock
is depressed
how often can you squander once in a thousand years in every 3rd email from rock?
@Macart
I think it became clear pretty early on that tonights debate on the Claim of Right was much more about the right of Scotland to have a 2nd Independence Referendum with or without a Section 30 order.
The government, labour and lib dems were well aware of this though and that’s why there was no vote just an acceptance that the Scottish people are sovereign and that was something British Nationalist representing Scottish constituencies didn’t dare vote against.
I’m enjoying these new tactics by the SNP who continue to do a good job both in Holyrood and Westminster. Others are noticing too and I’m thinking of the likes of Murray Foote, Iain McWhirter and even Chris Deerin. At this stage maybe that is as much as we could hope for.
Point is, I think most of Scotlands elected members are doing what they can in making our voice heard down there, it’s a start and I’m happy with that as it also shows up the elected British Nationalist politician for what they are. too.
Rock (“From the crypt” – 5th December 2017)
Spooky, but it’s months to Hallowe’en yet. Back in your coffin!
Aye, “The Claim of Right debate is quite the bear trap.” @Macart says at 9:43 pm
And even though “…there was no vote just an acceptance that the Scottish people are sovereign” @Thepnr says at 10:10 pm
That acceptance by Westminster means another domino has just fallen in our favour.
🙂
@Thepnr
Pretty much. It was also an open invitation for the establishment parties to make public statements. 😉
O/T
A man and woman found unconscious in Wiltshire were poisoned by Novichok, the same nerve agent as ex-Russian spy Sergei Skripal, police say.
Jings!
Socrates MacSporran @ 9-52pm
I accept your humble suggestion as you so eloquently posed.
p.s. I was referring to our ‘schools-dinner-mince’…you could literally stand yer fork vertically!
Call me dave, got to be the Russians only they could design a deadly nerve agen that fails every time 🙂 think they have modified the recipe by adding a big red squirrell into the pot and its obviously deactivated the deadly part!
Ah well, as Blackford says:
“If the conservatives accept the claim of right motion tonight and the sovereignty of the Scottish people then the conservatives cannot frustrate any future demand for a referendum achieved through a mandate”
link to twitter.com
(it’s twitter hence the small “c” on conservatives of course. No, stop that, it wasn’t deliberate)
@yesindyref2
That’s another domino tipped. 😉
O/T
Just watched the Scotland Tonight article re new UK Gov white paper on the fishing industry.Surely SNP HQ could have come up with someone better placed to refute wee Dougie Ross’s verbal diarrhoea than Alan Brown.Good constituency MP Alan may well be but public speaker he is not.It was embarrassing .
@Macart
Yes, and I wonder if it can be used and quoted in the UKSC later this month?
@call me dave
I hope the two people will recover as the Skripals did, I’ve no idea though if they have any connection to Russia like the earlier incident or whether that could be related.
The one certain thing that they do have in common is their living in close proximity to the chemical weapons research and testing establishment Porton Down.
Robert J. Sutherland
Did I say it’s gonnae happen? Naw, I said it should have happened: ( Scotland staying in the EU and England leaving). Now, I don’t know what’s gonnae happen. It seems the UK Govt and so the Scot Govt are in the same boat.
As for federalism. That’s your words, no mine. It’s your beloved SNP that always want currency union with the UK (first formal, now informal.
What sort of independence is that? Independent of running your own economy: having another country run it for you.
@yesindyref2
Possibly, but I suspect it could also be kept for shortly after the outcome of that case. May have greater impact as it were.
Wonder if this same discussion was happening when Hadrian decided to build a hard border between the Roman EU and Scotland (NB) who refused to join his Empire/Union,
unbelievably it took the Romans only 6 years to build a wall (plus roads and forts) 80 miles long, in the middle of nowhere and under constant attacks, with spades and chisels,
so if the Romans can build a Hard border the width of GB in 6 years it should only take modern man with computers and massive machinery about 20/25 years.
O/T – just for a laugh – I don’t know if I ever showed you the Tube map for the new Euro line.
We’re at Brexit Circus now with Scotland Yard, the break-up line fast coming up .
You’ll find it in here link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
The SNP really need to invest in a world class media trainer to knock their MPs and MSPs into shape.
This has been known since 2011 and STILL they stutter and stammer their way through basic questioning.
Get a grip of this SNP.
@indyref2 – any link to the discussion or news about the outcome of the debate? When’s the vote?
@Macart
I guess it depends on whether the SG want to win that case – or lose it. Hard to work out which is the best outcome, from the point of view of Indy.
Hamish @ 9.45
The Polish guys in kilts! That brought a wee tear to my eye. That’s the Scotland I miss.
Can’t imagine something similar (a Cornish kilt?) happening down here in DDD.
It’s win win really when you think about it, but their choice to take Scotland’s parliament and popularly mandated government to court. 😉
Good to see this idea articulated. It had come to me too, because I’m familiar with Ireland, have driven around, and through the Border many times. I don’t think of it as a Border really.
All the talk of bridges etc.also kind of triggered the thought. I suppose I wondered if it would be as an independent Scotland, or devo max, to facilitate trade movement with England/Wales. I don’t think for a minute the Tories would wear it. They despise the thought of jocks prospering inside the SM, and not controlling our assets.
Just read a day old report from Business Insider that a trade body has concluded a multi million £ deal with Port owners of Rosyth.
They want to make it the agri hub of the north. The port is to be deepened to take much heavier container transport. It’s brilliant to know things like this are just happening, people taking control.
Watched the NI committee this morning, where they question the Secretary. She got a hard time from Ian Paisley and Kate Hoey, sitting together as a double act.It’s clear the DUP plan is to push for Direct Rule over NI. Without Stormont, they pointed out, decisions are not being taken, now affecting progress etc.
I’m sure the DUP are pitching Direct Rule for NI, telling May, you get NI, then the other two devolved gov’t get pushed to Direct Rule, facilitating the UK “internal market”
From the UK House Of commons twitter;
‘House of Commons approves @theSNP motion on the Claim of Right for Scotland without a division.’
I feel that a wee shift in the tectonic plates just happened. 🙂
Exciting times.
@ben madigan
Sorry, I’ve only been following it on Wings with a quick look at a couple of twitter timelines. I don’t think there was a vote, and I think that means it goes through on the nod, but I could be wrong.
@Macart
It’s win win, but a case win is the more solid one, a lose would have to be followed by hearts and minds, and that seems to be slow coming – except for a few influential dudes, some on the cusp. Maybe the hope or expectation is those dudes will help sway the rest.
It’s exciting when you think you know the plot, but get surprises in the scene by scene progress!
@colin Alexander 11:59
The BofE set the interest rate NOW. The raise it when the economy heats up I.e. The South of England.
The transition case of using sterling after Independence would not be any worse than now BUT we would then have control of the fiscal levers and able to plan our future exit from the Sterling zone.
Do you really think the BofE looking at London house prices and London Financial Gambling benefits Scotland?
Transition case is logical. Staying in the Union is madness.
T Jenny @ 12.03
It did indeed.
@ valerie who said “It’s clear the DUP plan is to push for Direct Rule over NI”.
i agree that is the DUP plan/hope.
Unfortunately it’s not gonna happen because it breaches the belfast/Good friday Agreement. That’s an official, UN-lodged international treaty between the british and irish govts.
As a tiny miinority in the UK and now as a minority in NI, the DUP/Loyalists have used and abused their power, supported by Westminster, for far, far too long
colin alexander @ 22:59:
Maybe I’ve misunderstood you all this time, dear chap. If Stu’s tongue-in cheek proposal for Scotland to remain within the UK in some kind of semi-detached state turns you on, as it clearly does, and you really don’t like federalism, then I’m beginning to wonder what kind of Unionist you truly are. (The Gove fantasyland kind, one must conclude, I suppose.)
(And anyway, you wanted us out of the EU as well, didn’t you? Or was that just another of your many “positions”?)
BTW, your bitter SNP antipathy is really showing these days. (Quite revealing, actually, in a tacky kind of way.)
Now you’re playing the “non-independent” currency card. Ho-hum. Trying to make the best of a bad hand, there, I fear. The proposal will ease the concerns of many doubters – as has been quietly conceded by some BritNats – and in the event won’t last very long, because it’s only a transitional arrangement.
After indy, the UK pound will tank as economic realities start to bite (since the money markets depend on hard facts and won’t let themselves get distracted by any of the BBC state broadcaster “all’s well in the best of all possible worlds” propaganda), so we’ll all likely want to bail out of that arrangement pretty fast, having in the meantime set up all the necessary mechanisms.
But thanks anyway for serving up some of the reheated BritNat tactics for us. It’s pretty thin gruel though so far…
Here’s a wee tune for you. Listen to it and it will keep running through your head for the next several days:-
link to youtube.com
Orange is Orange Time for change
link to caltonjock.com
Clootie
I agree the BofE manages the Pound to suit primarily the South of England.
So a sort of Scottish political independence where we have a separate parliament would be a huge positive step forward but, still having our economy controlled by the BofE and rUK Govt robs of us of many of the economic benefits of independence.
I agree it’s a bad idea to stay in political Union as part of the UK.
It’s also a bad idea to stay in economic union as if were still part of the UK too.
We need to control things for the benefit of Scotland’s people, not hand away control to a country that does not care how their decisions affects Scotland’s economy or Scotland’s people.
If there has to be a currency transitional period, it should be for as short a period of time as possible, not the 10 years + that some have suggested.
@Colin Alexander says: 4 July, 2018 at 5:40 pm:
” … A large majority of the people of Scotland voted Remain, so that’s the position the Scot Govt should have fought for … “
For the love of God, Colin, could you please stop telling the professional political persons we Scots voted for what they should have bloody well done?
If the legally sovereign people of Scotland had thought Colin Alexander knew best they would have elected Colin Alexander as the First Minister of Scotland or as leader of the political party who we thought could reinstate Scotland’s independence from Westminster and England and would thus have ended the United Kingdom for ever.
But we didn’t – we elected the SNP and the membership of the SNP chose who they thought would be the best elected member to lead the party. Then the members elected to Holyrood elected Nicola Sturgeon to be the First Minister of The Scottish Parliament and that was accepted by the Scottish Parliament.
Perhaps you didn’t know that the Scottish First Minister and the First Minister’s cabinet members must be approved by a majority on MSP at Holyrood but that is a fact = and Colin- they didn’t choose you.
You know it would mitigate your colossal arrogance if you said, I believe that Nicola Sturgeon … or I believe the Scottish government should have … but you don’t. You state it as, “The SNP should have done … “ as if you were a better judge than the professional political figures who, incidentally, are doing a very fine job.
@ ben madigan
Yes, the Belfast Agreement was the obvious (quite rightly) defence of the Secretary. It was disgusting to see Hoey and Paisley chuntering away, and suggesting it might be overridden.
They will use the defence it’s not their side that are violent, and we mustn’t be deterred from delivering services by threats of violence.
It was obvious the DUP will threaten to withdraw support.
Colin Alexander @ 00:37:
Independence is like pregnancy, you can’t have a “sort-of” version. That’s one of the things you just don’t seem to understand.
You still hanker for us to remain chained in some kind of “half-cock” Union of your own imagining (but not “federalism”, oh no), yet also quibble about the initial currency option of a new fully-independent country.
“Does not compute, does not compute!”
Ben Madigan, no vote, the speaker said all who say aye and there weas this loud aye from everybody present and the speaker said anybody say no and silence. so the ayes have it 🙂
Not sure only a vote if speaker cannot tell if ayes or noes are loudest.
T Jenny @ 12.03
I think so too..
Westminster had the chance to turn out in their hundreds and tell Scotland’s representatives.
Westminster is Sovereign.
The Claim of right is a fantasy,an SNP spin,a nice idea and without legal substance…… but they didn’t..
In fact they agreed that The Claim of Right – was – Right..
Now why ??
The British Nationalists in Westminster, especially the one’s from Scotland could have had a lot of fun tonight!
They could have gotten revenge for last nights “voting during the England game”!
They could have put it on record that Our Claim of Right didn’t mean a thing to Westminster,and because of the 2014 vote,Westminster would be disregarding it!
They could have laughed and brayed and voted the motion down!
But they didn’t seem to want to …… Infact they were pretty subdued and only prattled on about how badly Scotland was doing!!!
Why….
Because they didn’t dare…. That’s what’s shifted..
This is why we needed the SNP in a majority at Westminster.
When faced with Scotland’s actual position,and asked to vote on the questions that they cannot duck and fudge..
They had to tread carefully.
They spoke about everything except The Claim of Right,they spoke around it,and when they did reference it…
They were, if not deferential to its concept,outraged on its behalf,claiming its being badly misused!
Seemingly Westminster thinks its a pretty special thing too!!!
They bottled the Lib Dem amendment on Indy ref 2.If they were confident in their position.Why not take the chance to put the matter beyond doubt?
Cause they need the Doubt,thats why… Well that and they don’t have the power they think they do over Scotland.
Tonight’s debate was indeed one of those moments on which History turns… Well done the SNP MPs…..
many thaks to valerie and lenny hartley for their replies
@ valerie who said “It was obvious the DUP will threaten to withdraw support”
Let them – if they withdraw support it’s a Westminster (PM May, Tory) problem, not an irish problem and certainly not a northern irish problem
@lenny who said “so the ayes have it” – great to hear . Onwards to independence Scotland! Time is running short
@Colin Alexander says: 5 July, 2018 at 12:37 am:
” … So a sort of Scottish political independence where we have a separate parliament would be a huge positive step forward but, still having our economy controlled by the BofE and rUK Govt robs of us of many of the economic benefits of independence.”
Reality isn’t your strong point is it Colin?
The reality of an independent Scotland with control of her own many rich natural resources would be in control of an economy whose main problem would be, like that of Norway, preventing their economy from overheating.
This would be in direct contrast to the Kingdom of England’s economy which, even with Scottish pauckled natural resources is increasing the United Kingdom National debt at an alarming pace. It is not decreasing and Westminster is crowing, not because the debt is decreasing, but because the rate of increase is decelerating.
How do you imagine the Kingdom of England economic prospects will be when they lose the oncomes they now pauckle from Scotland?
I cannot predict that but I believe I know a man who says he can. His name Gavin McCrone – that’s Professor Gavin McCrone and the author of the McCrone Report. So volatile it was immediately buried deep in a safe, in a vault, in the cellars of a United Kingdom Government facility, (How’s That for split infinitives, Wowee!)
Anyhow, if the McCrone report had even a grain of truth in it in 1974, when the United Kingdom economy was poor but not as bad as today, then it sure as hell is even more true today than it was in 1974 and in 1974 it frightened the shit out of EVERY Unionist Party in the United Kingdom enough to make them band together to suppress it.
And I quote a bit about the McCrone Report here:-
Now if you don’t know the problems that Norway has due to their hardest of European Currencies read This:-
https://nordic.businessinsider.com/norways-oil-money-is-potentially-ruining-its-innovation—heres-why-2016-10/
So it is not a bad idea but an inspired Scottish Government decision to NOT create a new Scottish Currency for it will prevent the same problems that Norway has if Scotland retains the Pound Sterling and ties it to the English Pound Sterling.
Note that the Scottish Banknotes are uniquely Scottish – enough of a difference for London Traders in particular to refuse to accept them as if they were, “Foreign”, currency.
The fact is that a very hard Scottish Currency would force the BofE to regulate the joint currency and thus benefit both former kingdom partners. i.e.If tied to the English Pound the Bof E, (incidentally Scotland owns part of the BofE as it was nationalised in 1946 by the United Kingdom Government and that is a bipartite government). In that case Scotland can demand either a presence on the board or a payment in leu.
Believe me the BofE would be delighted to regulate the pound properly or Scotland would only need to threaten to unlink the Scottish Pound and the Kingdom of England currency would go down the drain. So the Truth is that the Scottish economy, not the English economy, would be in control.
Unless, of course, you know better – and if you do then please explain your reasoning.
So the reality of an independent Scottish economy in charge of its own resources would mirror that on Norway.
Also watched the COR debate and like everyone else was raging and sickened by these brit nat tractors , the tories are far from the worst , TBH I think all the brit nat ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s are competing to see who could denigrate and disparage Scotland and the Scots the most
I absolutely loved Ian Blackford’s demolition and destruction of fluffy’s character and incompetence , fluffy was so angry he was nearly greetin
IMO Lesley Laird deserves a special mention , this woman is an enemy of a better Scotland , her blatant lies of what liebour would do for Scotland is presented without any sense of irony or honesty , Laird has whitewashed the destruction and incompetence liebour heaped on Scotland for the decades they were in power .
She also mentioned the WASPI women but forgot to mention liebour GCC fighting for 10 years and spending £1 million pounds in legal costs to deny women’s equal pay award
Labour a corrupt and rotten cabal of pseudo socialists who are the enemy of the working classes
So basically speaking after the “pathetic theatrics” of Monday meaning some MPs missed Kane’s penalty, the stupid SNP come up with some meaningless opposition debate and hey, let the children have their way, it don’t mean a thing. The ayes have it without a division, well, so what?
God did make a brain for Tories, but we don’t know who got it this week.
twathater @ 02:18,
Lesley Laird, JayCee the Messiah’s choice of craven pro-consul to replace Fluffy if he ever gets the chance.
As for that cynical WASPI trick, that’s Labour all over. “Never mind what we do, just listen to the lovely things we say”.
We had the same kind of hypocrisy here in Glasgow the other day, the local Labour councillor (who is not a bad sort, really) doorstepping and demeaning himself by handing out a NorthBritLab leaflet roundly castigating the SNP administration for cutbacks, when the main reason for the City being in a financial hole is precisely because of the dastardly legal attack the previous crew perpetrated for years and years on their own female employees at vast public expense (as you mention), and left behind an even more vast compensation obligation.
RJS @3.12 am
I have said previously in the past on here ,I was employed by GCC for 12 years and saw the rank corruption first hand , TBH I would say their corruption and incompetence surpasses the other brit nat parties ,
I have always prayed that the books would be opened up and the betrayers would be brought to justice , it just frustrates me that it has taken so long for the people to realise just how bad they are , yet there are still people who vote for them
I just read Blackford’s speech in the National, and I don’t think he missed one single trick.
link to thenational.scot
@yesindyref2
Yes. Yes he did. 🙂
That really does need spreading far and wide.
[…] is a problem though, and it has been researched by the Wings over Scotland website. I should put it on record that I know just how controversial this website is. It divides opinion, […]
Well done to the SNP in the cesspit of Westminster last night. It was interesting to note their were periods when Iain Blackford Spelt out just how Westminster had overridden the express wishes of the Scottish people, and there was silence. It is odd when watching it, since even the braying donkeys from the Tory party went quiet.
I think the SNP need to keep this up, and do not let this matter drop.
Last night however, was about putting things on record. Having what is happening to Scotland documented in Hansard in clear detail, and an explanation for all time in record of HOW that goes against the remotest scintilla of democracy. How parliamentary sovereignty doe not exist in Scotlands constitution, and that the people are sovereign instead.
Most importantly of all, however, Iain Blackford called out the man-snake David Mundell for the utter coward and craven, cloying pathetic excuse for humanity he is. And Mundell did not like it one little bit. Good. He deserved it and much, much more.
Mundell has been the most appalling example of everything that is wrong with conservatives for a very long time, and yet has been treated gently by the media in Scotland. He is not used to being told what a snake he is. Last night he got it full force.
The point about Mundell, however is this, in the past, Scottish Tories, despite their politics would FIGHT Scotland’s corner, but the current crop of Tory donkeys from Scotland think it is their duty to destroy Scotland. They foolishly mistake the SNP for Scotland, and whilst trying to bash the SNP are actually bashing Scotland and its people. They should read the history in Hansard and they might get a wee shock. Mind, I am not sure the current Scottish Tory thugs can read.
Watching last night, it was also interesting to note the way in which the Scottish Tory thugs like Douglas Ross behaved. At first they were laughing with fake bravado, then they tried taking the moral high ground, then they just returned to form, behaving as Tory thugs from Scotland always behave day in, day out in the house of commons.
Well done SNP. Make then unhappy. Make then uncomfortable. Make it awkward for them, day in, day out.
The referendum is coming. But, if their is a snap UK election first, we should move heaven and earth to unseat every single Tory donkey in Scotland. That will motivate SNP supporters – and indy supporters.
I see Richard Murphy is discussing this post.
Welsh Sion WE LOVE YOU!! 🙂
Guybrush Threepwood @ 2.26 pm You could be our Man in Japan =)
And obviously that would require alot of traveling home with the whole family in tow! And mibee settling in Scotland again or at least knowing you CAN live where you would most like to.
There seems to be this belief that currency choice doesn’t matter in isctoand and our resources will save us. If the quantity of money is constricted for any reason (say recession) the resources are of little use. Money moves resources.
Look back in history after wars when the king re-asserted the exchange rate for currency to gold. Food lay rotting in the fields. Plenty of resources, just no means to acquire them.
I’m thinking the ship has sailed though as far as the SNP are concerned.
Picking up on Stu’s brilliant suggestion and Brexit NI solution …
link to taxresearch.org.uk
Re “weechid’s” comments on commuters to Carlisle, hundreds of Spanish residents cross the border into Gibralter every day with very few problems. Only when the Spanish decide that they want to have a pop at the UK or Gib are there any delays at the border. In our case it could be the English who could try to prevent it working but surely these people who constantly tell us that we are a valued part of the Union would never do that!
The Democratic defict in Scotland as part of the UK is recognised in the UN. Westminster is a undemocratic embarrassment recognised throughout the world. If it does not change it’s ways it will lose it’s seat at the UN. One of the manipulator of world policy. It will probably lose it’s seat at the UN in any case because of Brexit, The Chinese, Britain ‘A small island without Empire’.
Scotland, ‘the land of discovery and invention’. Recognised the world over.
That’s why Scotland achieved limited Devolutiin, . People in Scotland appealed to Official world bodies, who uphold ‘self determination, rights and freedoms’. Westminster Law was breaking EU/UN International Law. Limited democracy only came to Scotland in 2000, Devolution/Holyrood.
The unionists still tried to block it and keep control. Ruining the Scottish economy, when they could. Damaging democracy and the electoral Laws. Lying and cheating like there is no tomorrow. The SNP are establishing the rights in Laws recorded for prosperity at Westminster. For any future reference that is needed.
Some fishermen and farmers are being sold up the swanney river by the Tory unionists. Ruining their own industry. ‘It wisnae them who sold their industry oot’. The multimillionaires ruined their own industry and blame everyone else. Overfishing and throwing dead fish back for years. Not improving the terms, conditions and remuneration. A bigger share.
The SNP were sorting out the bigger nets for bigger quotas. After finally getting some representation Richard Lochhead. Instead of being blocked by Westminster unionists. The UK fishing Minister was a Home Counties Tory, who did not have a clue, Then some of them voted Tory to cut off their nose to spite their face. Gove is a cheat and a diabolical liar, along with the rest of them. How people be taken in by him is a mystery. He should be charged with electoral fraud and embezzlement of public funds. Brexit ruining the economy.
Gove has refused to return or refund the £Millions in CAP funding given to Scottish farmers by the EU. Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest CAP funding in the EU. The Tory farming minister took it and face it to the wealthier farmers in the south. Soon farming land is going to change ownership in Scotland,
The majority of farmers are elderly receive on average £27,000 in remuneration. The average wage. Set in their ways. Conservative with a small ‘C’. In many cases the farms will be sold off to new bidders. A change of ownership. Some have mortgages.or borrowing, They will have to be paid off. Many estates have loans or mortgages. They raise loans or mortgages to live off or manage. Tax evade.
Land (sales) is exempt from tax to keep farms together. Larger farms produce more. In many cases their is no family to take over. Or they are employed in other more lucrative employment. Many farming members work outside the farm/estate to contribute to the upkeep. The costs of extended ownership.
The food and drinks industry in Scotland is a major industry and a main exporter. Earning £Billions for Scotland. Scotland is self sufficient in food and energy. It gets exported.
Half of the fish consumed in the UK is imported. There are exclusive EU limits for home ports. A radius for home fleets. 100 nautical miles? Exclusive limit. Under EU regulations which Gov can impose. If the NE of Scotland is the biggest landing place. 80% of the UK fishing industry? There are no foreign boats landing there. How can 40% of the catch being taken by other vessels. Many of the crews are foreign from overseas. The workers from the EU. The best of the catch exported to the EU and overseas for premium prices. Tariffs are the last thing any industry would want. In the future. Brexit bleak.
Posting the YT link for folk like me who have buffering problems with all other video forms.
Ian Blackford COR link to youtube.com
EU loans have aided many counties to self determination. In the Eastern bloc. Germany re unification. Poland (40million) Latvia, Lithuania etc were all helped out by EU loands and financial arrangement. ECB. Investment. These countries are doing extremely well by comparison. IR has increased growth, Just look on the back of the Council tax statement to see how many. EU countries are documented. They also got foreign investment in and EU grants. Even Russia has financial arrangements for selling Gas etc into the EU. Supplying Europe. There is a pipeline under the Baltic taking gas to Germany.
Scotland would not struggle to get the needed finance. It is so full of resources and assets. Economically viable. Improving investment. Undermined by Westminster unionists. A democratic deficit. An International rights issue. Kept hidden under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie for 100 years.
Westminster borrows £Billions from the Chinese (Hinkley Point/HS2) and the Saudis? The US – Trident (Borrowed £Billions). A total waste of public money which has to be paid back with interest. Instead of being better spent, £Trns of debt. Although the assets outweigh the debts. The only saving grace. The Scottish resources and assets.
@ Shinty, thanks for that, Ian Black excellent.
BBC News item on the chaos on London’s railways because of signaling failure.
I read the article looking for criticism of the Westminster Government, or even the Transport Secretary, as is customary in Scottish railway events. There aren’t even a few paragraphs with criticism from the opposition parties.
BBC frames it entirely as a problem for an organisation called “National Rail” and some train companies and commuters.
Who is the English Transport Secretary? BBC doesn’t say.
link to bbc.co.uk
Should of course be Blackford, we’re lucky to have him!
Come to the sad conclusion that many commenters on this site have their heads buried in the desert sand.
The SNP and the wider national movement do not seem to realise the enormity of the problem/problems a country like Scotland faces on the independence trajectory. The English, I do mean the English, have run rings round the Scots for centuries as they did in all their colonies. They are psychologically tough, unorthodox, quick witted, tenacious, proprietorial ie what they think theirs they will fight to keep and are perfectly capable of wiping Scotland off the map should they choose to.
That is the reality. Have we produced a movement with leaders to match? Not from what I see. The SNP gov is a competent, bourgeois devolved administration but it is not a party displaying the necessary passion and fire to lead Scots to independence. That will have to come from elsewhere but alas not sometime soon.
wrt people not normally considered Scottish wearing the kilt,
I was recently in Köln (Cologne) to see Runrig on their Last Mile farwell tour. The number of Saltires, lions rampant men wearing the Kilt and women wearing tartan was really quite brilliant to see. I asked one guy, who was dressed like someone out of Highlander, where the fan article shop was. He was a local man from Köln. I heard people in tartan speaking several languages.
I was a bit overawed to see this love and respect for Scotland and things Scottish. Great to see!
Hi McBoxheid.
Germany and Scottish stuff…
link to youtube.com
Abulhaq
Poor attempt at trolling pal – FOAD is my advice.
It may be the old joke about how the British Empire worked: The English decided what should be done, and the Scots made damned sure the Irish and Welsh did the exact opposite – is a bit far-fetched.
But, there is plenty of evidence, the best, most-dedicated and probably most-respected by the locals, colonial administrators, were Scots.
Also, the success of Scottish-based firms overseas, such as Jardine Mathieson demonstrates the huge role the Scots played in the Empire.
When the going got tough, the “shock troops” or the British military were the Scottish regiments.
I m certain, post-independence, there will be a few little Englanders all too-ready to do Scotland down, for having the sheer ungratefulness as to leave “Mother England”, but, I firmly believe there are enough cooler heads in England who will realise – the Romans never totally conquered Scotland, the Normans and the Plantaeganets couldn’t do it and, in the end, the Stewarts took-over England.
And, when the Protestants kicked-out the Roman Catholic Stewarts, it was a descendant of the Protestant Stewarts, from Hanover, who they got to take the throne.
If, in a post-independence scenario, the English are ever daft enough to take-on Scotland, I think you will find, we’ve got more pals abroad, willing to give us what we in the West of Scotland call: “hauners” than England has.
It is obvious why most Tories don’t want independence. The simple reason is even although Scotland hasn’t returned a Tory majority to Westminster in Scotland since the 1950’s, they have had a Tory government for around 60% of this time. It’s the type of ‘democracy’ they like, being governed by another country is acceptable if it’s to their advantage.
Concerned trolls are about, I see, must surely be because the SNP in Westmonster had a ‘good night’in the COR debate.
I was certainly proud of them, and Blackford’s demolition of the Fluffmaster was class!
Capella says:
5 July, 2018 at 9:52 am
BBC News item on the chaos on London’s railways because of signaling failure.
BBC “News” also doing NHS anniversary stories this morning. Get it totally wrong when a reporter in Edinburgh states that responsibility for the NHS in Scotland was devolved “in 1999”.
Ermmmm – wasn’t there a separate Act to establish a separate Scottish NHS in 1947 and hasn’t it always been managed separately from the NHS in England? It’s not as if this information is difficult to find, is it?
Both true – SNHS created separate, but under the Secretary of State for Scotland – a UK cabinet position – so not ‘devolved’.
Brian Doonthetoon says:
5 July, 2018 at 10:11 am
Hi McBoxheid.
Germany and Scottish stuff…
Thanks Brian! Great stuff. Wacken (Heavy Metal)is still going strong I think. This takes me back to the seventies. These days I can’t stand up for a whole concert.
Thanks again Brian!
Re Claim of Right Debate
I watched all 3hrs+ of this and at the end “the Ayes have it”, unanimous. Recorded for posterity in Hansard. Sovereignty is with the people. Full Stop; no contest.
Now the Supreme Court challenge to the Continuity Bill is a bit moot. Fun anyway though; should be good for a laugh.
After that Nicola asks for, nay DEMANDS, a S30 order and Maybot is stuffed.
Rock better eat some humble pie. It’s Bye Bye UK, all the way.