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Wings Over Scotland


The counsel of despair

Posted on September 28, 2019 by

He’s got no right to shoot from there.

There’s less than half an hour to go and we’re holding the previous year’s World Cup finalists on their own patch. A point would be a great result, but we’ve got men up. Try to thread it through on the left. Turn, hold it up for a second and knock it out wide to the overlap on the right and get forward for a cross or a cutback. If we just wait, if we take it slow, the situation can only get better for us.

But definitely don’t waste it on a wild, optimistic punt.

Right?

The French commentary is much better, of course. The Scottish one can’t quite accept what’s happened, can’t bring itself to believe that we’re big enough or strong enough or good enough to have gone ahead legitimately (“well, the ball must have moved… I can only assume it’s taken a huge move”).

But anyway, back to politics.

Michael Gray is a good guy. He wants independence. It’s not his fault that he’s so annoyingly young that he thinks he’s got all the time in the world to achieve it at a nice leisurely pace, while some of us already have one nervous eye on life’s ticking clock.

But the argument he makes in that video is fundamentally misguided and dangerous, for a number of reasons. Here’s where Wings Over Scotland stands.

(1) Even if we all had 10 years or more to wait, we cannot imagine events which would create circumstances more favourable for independence than this.

If Brexit is somehow avoided, it’ll be used as proof (with some degree of justification) that the UK works and Scotland’s voice is important, which 99% of the time it isn’t. But if Brexit takes place, no matter how bad it gets we’ll be told independence will only make it worse by adding even more chaos and upheaval.

Every day we’re out of the EU, with the UK government burning everything down, will in both emotional and practical terms be a step further away from Scotland being able to rejoin seamlessly, and therefore a more difficult sell to voters.

(And hey, let’s not automatically assume we’ll even still HAVE a Scottish Parliament by 2021, the way the UK government is going.)

(2) 60% support, let alone SUSTAINED 60% support, is almost certainly a fantasy. While Brexit has shifted quite a few people around since 2014, it’s been swings and roundabouts. Folk are pretty entrenched now, and even a working range of 45%-55% is probably a slight exaggeration.

If we ever DID get to a consistent 60%+, that would simply make Westminster less and less likely to permit another referendum. And Catalonia shows that appealing to the international community to step in is a pipedream.

No country that’s ever won its independence has gone back. But from where we are now, the only way to get support above 60% is to actually become independent. Like the smoking ban, people will quickly come to wonder incredulously why they ever opposed it, how something as stupid as Scotland handing responsibility for its affairs to another country that doesn’t give a damn about it was allowed to go on for so long.

Unity on any contentious topic only ever comes about in retrospect. The idea that we can magically generate a consensus whereby everyone just nicely agrees for Scotland to become independent will never, ever happen. The only possible route to unity is to win first, then behave properly and decently afterwards.

(Which is where the Leave side went disastrously wrong after the EU referendum, as to a slightly lesser extent David Cameron did on 19 September 2014 with his stupendously misguided “now shut up and let’s hear the voice of the English” speech.)

People adapt. They’ll adapt to Brexit if and when it happens – and again, every day that people start to get used to a Brexit UK is a step further away from independence. Unionists will adapt to and accept independence after we win. Not before.

(All that said, it’s also worth noting that nothing shifts opinion like a campaign. The first referendum was called when we were almost 30 points behind in the polls. People are a lot more willing to listen when there’s actually a tangible reason to, rather than it just being an abstract debate that they’ve already been having non-stop for the last eight years and are quite bored of.)

(3) We cannot underestimate the profound disillusionment that’ll descend on the Yes movement if we get to 2021 and beyond without another indyref. People have been kept on constant high alert for five years. It’s tiring and stressful.

If that all comes to nothing, if the SNP’s constant promises of delivering another vote by 2021 are broken, there’ll be anger. There’ll be recrimination. There’ll be infighting. All of those things are present to some degree already, and if another 18 months pass with no progress they’ll explode like a dirty bomb.

A great many activists will be thoroughly scunnered and walk away. The movement’s infrastructure, already thinning out and under strain, will crumble. Building back up to where we are now will take years.

To all intents and purposes, in other words, it’ll be exactly like we DID have a Quebec-style second vote and lose it. The damage will be similar, but we won’t even have had the chance of winning.

And what will the SNP’s post-2021 line be to keep the troops marching up the hill only to be marched down, yet again? “You gave us three mandates and Brexit on a plate, we blew it, give us some more and it’ll work next time, honest”?

It’ll be like listening to Labour promising to abolish the House Of Lords, like they have at every election for the last 120 years without ever really even attempting it. People will roll their eyes wearily. The SNP’s ongoing dismal transformation into their former rivals will be complete. A 2026 indy majority? Dream on.

It was right to be patient until now (although more work should have been done). But the time for patience is running out very fast. The house is burning down around our ears and the time for sitting around casually deliberating over the small print of the instructions on the fire extinguisher is just about up.

Or to go back to where we came in: you can’t always walk the ball prettily into the net after a slick, perfectly-choreographed move of 25 passes. Sometimes you’ve just got to grab a half-chance and put your laces through it.

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    968 to “The counsel of despair”

    1. Cubby says:

      Hi Bob, I have to say major respect for the volume of posts you are managing to make with your problem. Top marks for determination and perseverance.

      The Counsel of Despair thread is owned by you Bob. Great effort. How on earth did I manage to win our previous debate. You clearly like to win a debate – not that I am saying you are winning this debate. All this blood and soil genetics stuff is not for me. I prefer a nice civic nationalism where DNA genes colour of skin or hair is not relevant. So I’ll let others decide who wins. So no “good post Bob” yet from me Bob despite the considerable quantity to choose from.

    2. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby
      Well. Im crushed. No gold star again. Death, where is thy sting ?

    3. ahundredthidiot says:

      Colin A @4:24

      Thanks for the link, Scottish Vikings Wha Hae!

    4. Bob Mack says:

      viking genetic marker is M17. Found in high numbers North of Caithness Around 26% Of Island population.

      Sorry,just scientific awkward fact.

    5. Iain mhor says:

      Lizg 1:30am

      That’s getting closer to the nub of the matter.
      Though I don’t really want to rehash, whether or not the ‘Treaty’ exists and was, or was not abolished by the two Acts of Union. That’s an old topic (Mr P, has some definite views there and we are familiar with them) But I may have to succumb to that topic later.

      However, the fundamental issue, as I perceive it, is a peoples right to decide, regardless of Treaties, Acts, Legislation ad-infinitum. As the powers of both the UK and Scottish Parliaments and their governments, wallow in a morass of lies and obfuscation, any other position is fraught with difficulty.

      So, the ball must be played as it lies. “Who speaks, under whose authority and what is the claim”? Currently all that is moot, but is basically a variation of: ‘The Scottish Parliament speaks, under the authority of the Scottish electorate and claims the right of self-determination’. The variation that “Scottish MP’s speak, under the authority etc” I find particularly interesting though.

      We have been told, repeatedly, that the only recognised UK democracy, is UK Parliamentary representative democracy (So also says Scotland’s Act of Union – “,The United Kingdom… to be represented by …the Parliament of Great Britain” etc) Do a majority of Scottish MP’s currently sit at Westminster, elected with a mandate to call and hold an Independence referendum – or is that only MSP’s? If they don’t, will we return MP’s with such a mandate at a forthcoming GE?
      Further recalling, that such MP’s may be representative of Scotland under UK democracy, but do not represent a large demographic of Scotland’s electorate under Scotland’s Parliamentary democracy.

      Neither Parliament truly represent the entirety of Scotland’s electorate (hence the favour of a referendum) However, some form of Parliamentary ‘representation’ must be considered valid, in order to proceed with such a referendum. That indeed is the cleft stick – a sublime piece of UK politics – A majority of Independence MP’s is acceptable to Westminster, but are unacceptable to Scotland’s electorate and vice-versa.

      A nice trap – does Scotland extracate itself and nullify this, by claiming a dual representative mandate, both at Westminster and Holyrood, to hold a referendum? It appears that is the current play. It forces a choice and acceptance of “Who speaks under whose authority”. Both cannot be rejected.
      The smoke and mirrors, is the UK Parliament rejecting overtures from Scotland’s Parliamentary representatives. It cannot reject the same request from Scotland’s MP’s, under the UK’s own constitution and its representative democratic rules. Well, it could try, it would destroy itself in the process.

      Finally, to touch on the “Treaty” question: if indeed the dual Kingdoms were extinguished, then there are no entities left to be bound by the Treaty – it ceased to be ‘live’ the moment the “Acts” were passed. There is no “Treaty” to be dissolved
      I though favour the view, that neither Kingdoms were extinguished, the English Parliament was absorbed by the Parliament of GB etc and extinguished as an unique entity and the Scottish Parliament was prorogued.
      References to the “Acts” & “Treaty of Union remain referenced within the UK constitutional legislation as ‘live’ ordinances. Ergo, the UK legislative constitution must consider there to be entities bound by it.

      The devolution settlements of the “UK Parliament of GB etc” and its failure to create an English Parliament, will be viewed historically as its greatest error – an act of hubris which culminated in the ending of the Union.
      All great logical and semantic fun. I enjoy it thoroughly.
      Perhaps, due to the nature of the morass, it should be simplified as Holyrood being the valid representation of the Scottish electorate. Take the plebiscite and claim the right. But, I know I know nothing.

    6. RobertTheTruth says:

      We are happy to have New Scots who want to identify as Scottish, no blood (or DNA) requirement. They just have to want to live and contribute to Scotland.

      In these days of identity politics where feelings apparently matter as much as biology, or maybe even geography, to the SNP why should Shetland and Orkney have to be Scottish if that is not what they feel?

      After all in the scheme of things we are all but ephemeral wisps of matter passing through time and space …!

    7. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Sullom Voe is already being bypassed for “technical reasons” which I believe is E&P Major speak for “tax avoidance purposes”.

      https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2015/10/26/schiehallion-to-bypass-sullom-voe/

      “SHETLAND has been dealt an economic blow after BP and its partners confirmed that oil from the Schiehallion field is to permanently bypass Sullom Voe Terminal (SVT) after it resumes production late next year. Earlier this month BP announced that initial production from the field would go to Rotterdam for technical reasons”

      The Atlantic Margin will be the same subsea pipelines enabling the reservoirs to be tied back to FPSO units and then ship to ship transfer from the FPSO to tankers heading out of UK (Scottish) waters.

      Northern Isles Enclave = Legal Maritime Boundary of 12 Miles as per UNCLOS this is the usual British Nationalist divide and conquer; smoke and mirrors distraction pish and in the same tradition as British Labour in Scotlands “Jam Tomorrow” promises.

      Trotted our when they are on the ropes and hope the gullible and the less politically aware have forgotten the last time such statements/promises were made and then subsequently shown up to be bollocks.

      As others have said let the Orcadians and Shetlanders have a Referendum on it Post Indy and if they swallow the FibDem and BritNat pish (as usual) let them go, that is the way Democracy works.

      I’m sure Westminster will dedicate a lifeline ferry service, fisheries protection and Naval vessels to enforce their territorial sovereignty (‘cos the UK Gov are renound as benevolent to all things in North Britain).

    8. Bob Mack says:

      @Robert the Truth,

      Aint that the truth!!

    9. Golfnut says:

      @ dadsarmy

      Thanks for reposting the letter dadsarmy, its been a while since I first read it.
      It struck me then as it does now just how careful Nicola is with language ( the assertion that Nicola asked for a section 30 order is of course nonsense ) in reiterating what I considered to be a very important point at the time of her speech which included ‘ asking permission of the Scottish Parliament to agree terms for a Section 30 order. For those who haven’t had time to read the letter, she refers explicitly within the letter to the Scottish Parliament authorising a referendum and goes on to hoping to ‘ agree terms ‘ with Theresa May.
      Thanks again.

    10. Iain 2 says:

      Remember that there are only two countries mentioned in the act of union and half of uk defense assets are Scottish, hence we will have a fairly large navy. England will have no pals and be out of the European Union and we will be in.

    11. Liz g says:

      Iain Muir @ 7.07
      It is all very fascinating isn’t it!
      Legally The Scottish Parliament is an instrument of Westminster…. But politically it’s the representation of Scots, and round and round the debate goes..
      The only thing we can be sure of is that this arrangement doesn’t stand up to the slightest scrutiny.
      Every time the British Nationalists politicians speak of the ” most successful Union in history ” I always wish that we had a decent enough media to ask for an explanation of how exactly it works!!!
      That would be fun to watch… 🙂

    12. Bob Mack says:

      “I am therfore wring to begin discussions between our respective Governments to request a section 30 order under sec@@ Scotland Act”

      Is that not pretty clear.

    13. Gary says:

      So, what IS the answer? Seriously. Having a majority and mandate politically isn’t enough. Having the polls at over 50% isn’t enough either (all for the government to allow us Indy2)

      The terms of the Edinburgh Act stated ‘only in the even of a material change in the relationship of Scotland to the UK’ and the example given by SNP at the time was “If Scotland is dragged out of Europe against her will” and that IS happening yet IS being ignored. Every single mean open to us politically and legally has been shut down. Now what?

      If we WERE campaigning we are starting from a position of being 50% in the polls, last time we got to 45% from a starting point of approx. 28% (if I remember rightly) Any future Indy campaign need only increase support by a few percentage points to ensure freedom.

      BUT – will they EVER allow it. I’ve read Craig Murray’s views on this and I’m not sure exactly what he’s advocating, and I don’t want to misrepresent his views, but it does seem like we’ve ‘run out of democracy’

      If we are simply told ‘NO’ all the time when we want to be independent then we DO have to find the means to become independent without having a referendum. THAT would require for support to be consistently well over 50%. To take action outwith Westminster’s control would require the backing of MORE people than if it were a ‘simple referendum’ Any ‘win’ on THAT basis would have to be rigorously defended and would need widespread support from the populace…

    14. dadsarmy says:

      @Golfnut / @Bob Mack

      As it says: “I am therefore writing to begin early discussions between our governments to agree an Order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 . . .

      Yes, as it says “”early discussion”. So nothing pushy in it at all, and no time limit set, whether 1 month, 1 year or 2.5 years 🙂

    15. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      Alex Salmond had a similar letter, only he managed to do it.

      Refusal should have meant Court action. Then,not now.

    16. crazycat says:

      @ Call me Dave at 2.55

      When I wrote to the BBC to complain about the spelling (and other things) in their subtitles, they told me they use voice recognition software, which of course cannot distinguish between homonyms.

      They don’t proof-read it because it appears almost instantaneously – that’s their excuse, anyway.

      I still think they could do better. We know there’s a time-lag.

    17. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bob Mack @ 13:47:

      So over 1000men march in full viking gear to throw torches on a viking longship for no reason other than the Victorians invented it.

      Precisely. A total fantastical invention for a piece of fun, which proves nothing except to the occasional pub bore trying to stretch a point.

      There are many places in Scotland which have genuine ancient fire rituals around the turn of the year. Stonehaven at Hogmanay, for example, which has a procession of whirling fireballs:

      http://www.hogmanay.net/events/scotland/fireballs-stonehaven

      That doesn’t mean that the good burghers of Stoney have any special adherence to LibDemmery, let alone a desperate wish to hive themselves off into their own wee English enclave. Duh.

      Culture and politics are not the same thing. People have all sorts of other interests that cross party lines. Tory MP Kenneth Clarke is a big jazz fan, for example, but that doesn’t mean that every jazz fan is a Tory.

      The only people with an interest in amplifying a completely fake Orkney/Shetland “separatist” movement are the enemies of independence. As we saw back in 2014. Now it raises its ugly head again. Funny that. So what’s your big interest here…?

    18. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      Well, Sturgeon’s letter has this:

      In light of the above, there appears to be no rational reason for you to stand in the way of the will of the Scottish Parliament and I hope you will not do so.

      May: Excuse me? Are you accusing me of being irrational? How rude!

      However, in anticipation of your refusal to enter into discussions at this stage, it is important for me to be clear about my position.

      May: Are you threatening me? Get lost!

      It’s a letter designed to elicit a refusal “Now is not the time”.

      Next up – the polite but firm reminder, without all the initial small talk.

    19. Bob Mack says:

      @Robert J Sutherland,

      Perhaps you should absorb what you read. My wife is Orcadian.

      In any event you presume I started the topic,which amazingly I did not. I was responding to an earlier post.

      All right Daddy Bear?
      .

    20. Golfnut says:

      @ Bob Mack.

      No Bob, she didn’t request a Section Order, see Dadsarmy above, or better still read the letter again.

    21. Bob Mack says:

      @Golfnut,

      My interpretation skills are just fine thanks

    22. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Bob Mack at various points

      What exactly is it about “begin discussions” that you don’t understand?

    23. Bob Mack says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill,

      Hard One Dave. Perhaps that the discussions never began and that this was meekly accepted.

      Sadly to do anything in life that involves more than input from yourself ,you have to BEGIN somewhere. This was Nicola indicating she was ready to begin. Got it?

      That of course was 2 and a half years ago, and I know politics can be slow but______ Oh wait. Mrs May said now is not the time didnt she? No doubt Nicola is well primed to BEGIN discussons having patient!y waited all this time.

      practice your condescention by the way. Its a little rusty.

    24. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bob mack , we share 98% dna or thereabout with chimps. The last book i read on Scots dna claimed majority of Shetland was Scots not Viking. As for my ancestry 75% scots 25% paddy
      The latter , im very happy about coz it means i can get a paddy passport if/when required.

    25. Bob Mack says:

      @Lenny Hartley,

      Your name is Anglo Saxon. Dates back to days of Richard the Lionheart in Hampshire. A good argument could be put up to say your DNA is probably English origin,but divdrsified through the centuries.
      Hou see ykurself as a Scot.
      islands have M17 Viking chromosome marker in over 26% of population. Argue if you like but that is just fact.

      who cares? If you see yourself as a Scot,your a Scot.

    26. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bob mack, yer wrong, my name comes from Ireland , in Gaelic O ‘artghaile which means Son of the Valiant Bear. It was first recorded as used by the rulers of Leinster and was recorded well before Norman Times in Ireland.

    27. Bob Mack says:

      @Lenny Hartlet,

      yes,thats what my son in law thought about his name,which is Hartley by the way. Further investigation revealed it comes from England. English did live in Ireland you know Lenny.

    28. Lochside says:

      I asked a few questions late last night of SNP diehards re. where we are. Apart from a couple of direct answers by Liz and a couple of others it degebberated into the usual punch and judy..and convoluted assertions about S30 meaning anything.

      One last time:Regarding the EU Ref…if we are Sovereign, why do we need the S30 ‘Request’ at all and why are we all waiting for the inevitable with bated breath?

      OT:
      Orkney and Shetland ‘SEPARTISTS’..anything to do with 18% and 14% RUK residents in 2011 (5% more than 2001). In a couple of generations, both will be Little Britains so no problem about assimilation into the New England of Brexitania.

      Similarly:

      dadsarmy says:
      30 September, 2019 at 4:46 pm
      2014, YES votes, bottom ten:

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/results

      Orkney Islands 17,806 32.80%
      Scottish Borders 95,533 33.44%
      Dumfries & Galloway 122,036 34.33%
      Shetland Islands 18,516 36.29%
      East Renfrewshire 72,981 36.81%
      East Lothian 81,945 38.28%
      East Dunbartonshire 86,836 38.80%
      Edinburgh 378,012 38.90%
      Aberdeenshire 206,486 39.64%
      Perth & Kinross 120,015 39.81%

      Loads of Vikings!

      Naw loads of RUK!

    29. Lochside says:

      sorry…’degenerated’

    30. Golfnut says:

      @ Bob Mack.

      Not sure we were talking about interpretations, more what she actually said, which didn’t include the word ‘ request ‘
      As I said earlier, Nicola is very careful in the use of language, particularly important when you don’t wish people to misinterpret or misrepresent your meaning.

      On a lighter note, I was surprised to learn today that Kim Kardashian has Scots Royal blood in her veins due to one of her ancestors being Rob Roy, perhaps she would be interested in standing in for Liz the last. Gets my vote.

    31. Bob Mack says:

      @Golfnut,

      Seconded. I will be her Private Secretary, if I ever get my fingers sorted.

    32. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lochside –

      If ‘degebberated’ isn’t a word it fekkin well should be.

      😉

    33. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bob mac, i have done the research the Hartley which I am descended from came from Leinster.
      I have checked the various sources and some say its a lancashire name, some like you say Hampshire, the oldest records I can find come from Leinster.

    34. Bob Mack says:

      @Lenny Hartley,

      Those who !ived in Ireland were called by the Gaelic equivelant rather than their own tongue. Thus Hartley and its derivatives became incorporated into the mainstream Gaelic language. A bit like my own name. I would be called different names depending on which country I lived in. though I would have a family history in both.

    35. Lochside says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      According to Lenny Hartley we are genetically 98% chimpanzees or , maybe I got that wrong, or is it 98% of the contributors are? …I think this thread has degebberated enough already Ian!

    36. McDuff says:

      Lochside
      Spot on.
      I wander around Scotland and all I hear is English accents and we are aghast when some expert commenting on something in Scotland actually is a Scot.
      Its a serious problem for us as England is bursting at the seams and there is no doubt Scotland has been pencilled in as the overspill and it wont take much to make us the minority in our own country.
      There is no doubt about it I believe this is going to be our last chance at independence.

    37. Nana says:

      BREAKING: the UK has proposed a string of “customs clearance centres” on both sides of the Irish border as a key part of its plan to replace the backstop, RTE News understands. The “centres”, effectively customs posts, would be located between 5-10 miles “back” from the border.
      thread
      https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1178760377678618626

    38. crazycat says:

      @ Bob Mack

      Those who !ived in Ireland were called by the Gaelic equivelant rather than their own tongue.

      And vice versa, Bob. See here:
      http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/sloinnte_ultacha.htm for examples from Ulster, but the same will be true elsewhere.

      (I discovered that article by chance the other day when looking for something else; I found it really interesting.)

    39. dadsarmy says:

      In all fairness this thread has been quite an interesting degebberation!

    40. Bob Mack says:

      @Lochside,

      No fun is it? There endeth the lesson. I have deliberstely tried to provoke everyone today, just to demonstrate what it feels like to be on the receiving end of the wolfpack that inhabits this site.

      Argue if you must,but try to find common ground where possible. I had decided to stop posting but thought why the hell should I back down from what I believe to satisfy others.

      simpld answer. I shouldnt. So I gave you some of what posters regularly receive on here. Stop it now please. You are turning tnis great site into a ganghut for the chosen few.It is for everybody. You be nice,I be nice.

    41. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Just asked the I-Ching whether there’ll be an indy referendum before the end of 2020. (And why not? It’s about as valid as anything else right now.)

      First hexagram was No. 9, ‘Gentle Progress’:

      Image
      Wind, which itself has no substance, can bring together clouds in the sky but they may move apart again. A good person, in difficult times, may likewise only be able to achieve small things.

      Judgement
      Conditions are not yet right and we cannot rush ahead to achieve the final objective. Success will come but there are still problems to be solved. The way forward is to proceed gently, adapting to the outside influences, but never weakening our resolve for the final goal. The thoughts and actions of others can be ameliorated by our influence.

      That first hexagram had one ‘moving line’ (in the second place), so:

      If we see that the progress of other good people is blocked there is no point in pushing forward ourselves. Needless exposure to failure has no value.

      Because there was a moving line, a second hexagram can be formed. In this case it is No. 37, ‘Relationships’.

      Image
      Energy from the heat of a fire stirs up the wind. Such forces arise from within and are based upon a continuing supply of fuel. In the close relatonships between people, as in a family, communication is only successful when words and deeds relate together. The power to influence others is based upon a firm constancy arising from inner faith in what is right.

      Judgement
      In the family group, or other close relationships, it is the correct behaviour of one person to another, founded on obligations and loyalties, that brings success to the partnership. When extended beyond the small group, such attitudes promote successful business and social activities.

      So that’s what a 5,000 yr old Chinese oracle has to say about it. Make of it what ye will!

      😉

    42. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lochside –

      Dunno about embdy else but I’m not bothered about being 98% chimp.

      Discovering that I was even 1% Tory would really mess with my head though.

      All relative intit?!

      😉

    43. Bob Mack says:

      @Ian Brotherhood,

      I like the Judgement section

    44. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      It’s good practice anyway, a dry run, and these are the sort of questions we need to be able to look up and get a good source of info in seconds or at least minutes – and to be aware of in the first place. And to be able to reply to politely.

    45. wull2 says:

      I see a few people are trying to use a distraction technique, I wonder what’s really going on?
      vote SNP/SNP nothing else.

    46. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Please read this tweet and thread.

      Haven’t digested it properly yet but if memory serves this is pretty much what David Davis proposed, to great hilarity, when he was doing his Brexit shuffle.

      Fuckin unbelievable stuff – it’s like watching a petrol-soaked car full of toddlers playing with matches.

      https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1178760377678618626

    47. schrodingers cat says:

      In deference to a million years of evolution, schrodingers cat will resist the temptation to pick fleas off
      Ian Brotherhood

    48. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      I live and breathe for independence as my family will tell you. I find it so wearkng to come on Wings with a different view because I know the “usual” suspects are waiting to que ston your loyslty to the cause, or insinuate you are some kind of agent working for Unionist masters. it actual!y wears you down mentally. Just because you think for yourself.

      how often have we seen new posters mauled after their first input ?/ Its ludicrous. No wonder people lurk rather than contribute. Anyhow.

      Its easier to walk away if anything. That also comes at a cost of your self esteem. Not for me.

    49. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      Aye, that’s the problem. A few put off the many, and probably cost the votes of undecideds lurking in to see what’s going on.

    50. mike cassidy says:

      Ian Brotherhod 9.12

      Is that the I-ching On The Cake?

    51. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ian B , I-Ching which took me back many moons to a cosy house on Arran with two very good friends.

      I am now off to reminisce for several hours which will take me away from the degebberation going on here.

    52. Lochside says:

      @
      Ian Brotherhood

      That I-Ching reading was the most interesting S30 contribution yet…as for being any % genetically tory.. I would go Ape!
      Degebberation indeed!

      @Bob Mack..no problem with that…. as someone once said..’i admire your indefatigabi… fuck it… degebberation!

    53. Bob Mack says:

      Im a Degebborate. Guilty as charged.

    54. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lochside –

      Well, seeing as you have neologised the thing it’s your responsibity – nay, duty sah! – to provide a definition.

      degebberate

      degebberator

      degebberation

      etc…

      😉

    55. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @mike cassidy –

      Ah see whit ye done there!

      Perhaps Joanna Cherry could provide a suitable finishing touch?

      😉

    56. Sarah says:

      @Ian Brotherhood: your I-ching post is very interesting indeed. It is completely right but is very difficult to carry through in practice. I’ve had some family conflicts lately and it is precisely because we have so much in common that makes any differences hard to accept and deal with. Same goes for Wingers!

      But we should try. “Divided, we fall.”

    57. boris says:

      Of interest given, they are very active in Scotland

      Senior Twitter Executive Exposed as British Army Information Warrior

      Gordon MacMillan, a senior Twitter staffer with editorial responsibility for Europe, the Middle East, and Africa, joined the social media giant’s UK office in April 2013, however it remains unclear when he was recruited to 77th Brigade, the British army’s shadowy psychological warfare unit.

      https://sputniknews.com/military/201909301076927374-gordon-macmillan-twitter-77th-brigade/

    58. Lochside says:

      @Ian Brotherhood :

      I’d rather be a neologist than a neoliberal or neocon!

      A final haiku..in the spirit of ‘distraction’

      The mud elephant
      wading through the sea
      leaves no tracks.

    59. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bob mac, according to the research I did the name was known in Ireland centuries before any English or other influences were in Ireland . Basically I dont give a flying flamingo where it comes from, only where its going and hopefully it will not be going back with me to whence it came . However if Nicola doesnt get her arse in gear and we dont have a referendum by May 2021, I will be offski.
      forty odd years of being an Independence supporter and all that entails on my time are enough for me. Ive got a hobby restoring old motorbikes which is being neglected by all this political/constitutional stuff.
      Anyway im out, going to spend the rest of my evening watching you tube video’s of how to build a DIY Vapour Blaster ! For me much these days much more interesting than politics.

    60. Dr Jim says:

      Exactly correct @Bob it was a letter seeking to begin talks on the subject of a section 30 order that never happened so no formal request was ever made

    61. Bob Mack says:

      @Lenny Hartley,

      Good luck with the rebuilds Lenny. I used to own an old Vincent but sold it after keeping it in a garage for 10years.
      seemed a waste.

    62. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@6.53pm

      Good to see your sense of humour shining through.

      I see you have continued to post at a very impressive rate. Good on you. This is definitely the Bob Mack thread.

    63. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,
      No Cubby,
      This is a Wings thread. it is our thread.All of us.

    64. Iain More says:

      I will be in Moscow on the 10th October. Actually I will be in Moscow for a whole week making a holiday of it as the Stop the Brexit Party will still be shitting themselves about having ago or a dig whatever. I am of course talking about the SNP. I don’t se the point of hanging about to watch the SNP shitting it.

    65. cirsium says:

      I-ching and degebberation – interesting conversation – thanks Ian

      @wull2, 9.22
      I see a few people are trying to use a distraction technique, I wonder what’s really going on?

      could it be our friends in 77th Brigade? https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/09/senior-twitter-executive-is-an-officer-at-britains-army-troll-farm.html#more

    66. Bob Mack says:

      @Iain More,

      If tonights news about customs stations away from the border is true, that deal will pass unfortunately, with or without Johnson. What then ?

    67. Jock McDonnell says:

      Interesting there, 10pm news on Yoon Stream 1 re the Naga complaint.
      The BBC is officially not impartial on certain subjects. Worth banking that.
      I don’t mind their partiality. Its the denial of it that is objectionable. The cloak of objectivity must be pulled away.

    68. Hamish100 says:

      Well over 50 posts from Mack. Is it a record? Has he no home to go back too?

      Most recent post re the border posts ain’t going to happen despite the tories floating the non paper.

      The English want a 20 mile DMZ the Irish work in Km!

    69. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bob Mack @ 22:33,

      The EU might well not accept some kind of half-baked scheme fresh out of a UKGov position paper. They want a legally-watertight agreement – the backstop – not pie-in-the-sky from you-know-who.

      After all, if this Brit techno fix is a flyer, why would the ERG zealots be at all worried about a never-needed backstop?

      I still reckon it’s just UKGov setting up the Blame Game, despite BoJo currently having his arm twisted by WM.

    70. Bob Mack says:

      @Hamish100, 51 actually. i Have a very happy home which Im sitting in rjght now whilst my other half is visiting Orkney.
      Strange but true.

    71. Ken500 says:

      Aye away you go flakers. Off on your travels. The unionists will be pleased. Right into their barrows.

      Pack up yer troubles in yer auld kit bags. Offski into the sunset. Smiling away. The pathetic wee threats.

    72. frogesque says:

      @Ian Brotherhood: 9.28

      Read through that lot. Yea Gods! Are they really that stupid? No way will anyone sign up to that gobbledygook that will create a 20 mile wide strip of no man’s land between The Republic and the Six Counties.

      If this is a serious proposal then its time to call on the burly guys with the white coats

    73. Dr Jim says:

      England grows the Marquis potato recognised as the perfect chip potato and they export thousands of tons all over the EU even America

      Scotland grows the perfect seed potato and exports them to Egypt Israel Spain and other countries and they grow them and export them back to the UK and around the world

      Which potatoes do we think will be more desirable post Brexit: The chip tatties or the seed tatties

      It’s a funny old world innit

    74. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @frogesque –

      Aye, it’s bonkers.

      Do you remember David Davis proposing something similar, for about five minutes before the laughter drowned him out?

      Mibbes ah just imagined it…

    75. Bob Mack says:

      @Robeft J Suthefland,

      Not sure if its pie in the sky. The object waS to ensure the border was kept undisturbed A customs facility prior to the border meets the needs of the EU with regard to allowing checks on produce and !ivestock. The UK was going to leaVe the border open in any event.

      If Ireland and N Ireland agree,it could be done.At least it is feasible. It depends on the DUP I suppose. I cant see how it would infringe on their red !ines.

    76. Ken500 says:

      The cat’s away the mice will play. Someone’s been at the drink.

    77. Ken500 says:

      This tread is too long. Everyone starts bickering.

    78. Bob Mack says:

      @Ken,

      Please. If youve something to offer then do it. Keep your remarks on the topic and not on your own agenda.

    79. Fireproofjim says:

      Bob Mack @11.01
      You say it depends on the DUP.
      It doesn’t. It depends on the Irish government who will veto it. Then it can’t happen as the EU willl support them all the way.
      It’s a crackpot scheme and violates the Good Friday Agreement which is an international treaty, approved and sanctioned by the UN. However the Tory Government are probably too stupid to know this, or more likely don’t care.

    80. robertknight says:

      I think the Northern Isles were formally annexed by the Old Kingdom of Norway from the Picts in 875AD. Formally recognised by the Kingdom of Scotland as being under Norwegian rule by the Treaty of Perth, (1266), but subsequently absorbed by the Kingdom of Scotland in 1472. In 50 years time, Scotland will match Norway for tenure, but the Picts had run of a few thousand years up there so that puts everything into perspective.

      Was puzzled by the dual-names on some of the street signs in Lerwick. Anybody shed any light? (Forgot to ask while I was there).

      The DNA thing is fun. I’m riddled with M222, which originated in Donegal of all places. Me? Irish? Who knew…

    81. Bob Mack says:

      The Good Friday agreement guarantees no border in Ireland.

      It does not guarantee no Customs inspection for lorries at customs posts specially created outwith that border zone.

      Just flying a kite here.

    82. Dr Jim says:

      Sajid Javid makes his conference speech and this is what he said “We will give a pay rise to 4 million of the lowest paid people in the UK, some of the lowest paid in the world”

      Nobody seems to have noticed the Tories just admitted some of the UK poor people are the lowest paid in the world, so he’s proud of that then

      It’s not actually 100% true but in terms of the developed world it is true

    83. Davie Oga says:

      Bob Mack says:
      30 September, 2019 at 11:25 pm
      “The Good Friday agreement guarantees no border in Ireland.

      It does not guarantee no Customs inspection for lorries at customs posts specially created outwith that border zone.

      Just flying a kite here.”

      It’s border infrastructure. Combine it with passport/ID checks that already occur for immigration purposes + police/army to protect the customs posts and you have a recipe for disaster. The customs posts will be attacked/the customs posts will need defending.

      This proposal will be rejected by Ireland and the EU, but its effectively what will happen with a disorderly withdrawal on the 31st.

      There is no solution, hence the backstop.

      Dark days ahead for Ireland and Scotland. I never thought I would see an SNP led administration playing an active role in this English farce. Police Scotland on the way over? Propping up pro brexit Corbyn? Surrender to the fact that Scotland is leaving the EU?

      It’s a long way from the FM’s 2016 response to the leave vote.

    84. Liz g says:

      Are the British really suggesting that Ireland lose an additional 20 mile strip of their territory to suit the British Government and N.Irish loyalists?
      Don’t Irish people actually live in that area?

    85. Mist001 says:

      The clock’s ticking, just 30 days to go now, so just imagine:

      Sturgeon: “Boris. Can we have a section 30 order please?”

      Johnson: “No.”

      Now would be the time for her and the SNP to spring their big plan that people seem to believe they have.

    86. Dr Jim says:

      There are folk in Ireland whose farms houses and even driveways straddle the border

      Nobody should think these folk will lie down and accept it, they won’t

    87. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – great I Ching reading. Sums up the present situation. That inner fire can certainly cause a lot of wind!

      I was disappointed that there was no VONC today. Typical of the LDs to refuse to co-operate with Jeremy Corbyn. They’d all rather go down with the Titanic than get into a lifeboat steered by JC. Oh well. Another failure in Westminster is probably good for the indy cause.

    88. Ken500 says:

      The ghoul strikes again. A village has lost an idiot. Deja Vu.

    89. Ken500 says:

      Kettle black. Keep on topic Aye right. The 90th ramblings. No self awareness.

    90. Dr Jim says:

      @Capella

      If you’re Jo Swinson you’re not going to assist Corbyn because he won’t give you a job if he wins a GE but if you don’t vote against the Tories (because she is one) if there’s a coalition on the cards you might be in with a shout in the Tories when they win

      Kerr Ching! And Swinson bets on the money job

    91. Capella says:

      @ Dr Jim – I read, on twitter where I get all my information these days, that Jo Swinson doesn’t want an election as she will lose her seat.
      I’d stay up late to see that.

    92. Bob Mack says:

      @Ken500_

      Dont fret Ken. The village will find you eventually.

    93. manandboy says:

      Iain McWhirter: “I love the corporation and worked for it for 25 years.” https://t.co/vOs9RMnCZR

    94. Ken500 says:

      Doubt it loser

    95. Dr Jim says:

      @Capella

      Yep, that’s my constituency she’s my MP and I know her and have had conversations with her I’m ashamed to say, and yes she is as awful as she seems

      It’s more possible now that she’ll lose her seat the SNP vote is back to being much stronger again after the Lib Dem disgraceful behaviour in ousting John Nicolson who was and is one of the good ones

      East Dunbartonshire is a weird constituencey chock full of people my age and older, I like to call them the dead the dying and the soon to be dead, and they all live next door to me, it’s horrible living in idiocracyville, but the yougsters are more engaged here now so there’s a strong chance she’s a goner

      Swinson was MP before John Nicolson but did nothing except bang on about potholes convincing folk they were the FMs resposibility even though it was a Lib Dem council, even the folk who voted Lib Dem don’t know who they voted for they’re just dim, she never even turned up till the last few days of campaigning it was mostly all done by overwhelming leafletting and vile innuendo about Mr Nicolson and the usual horrors about Nicola Sturgeon, no policy no discussion, just horrors upon horrors would befall them all if they dared to vote for the SNP again

    96. Tam the Bam. says:

      Naeboby….apart from the NP ….

    97. Tam the Bam. says:

      Nae body…apart fae the Fib Dems and corrie party…want a nae deal-exit.

      Swinson and Corbyn…just get it together ffs.

    98. Bob Mack says:

      @Ken500,Would love to banter with you but ive got some root canal work coming due which would be much less painful.

      Goodnight Ken.

    99. Kangaroo says:

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008r6k

      This should be Joanna Cherry on Any Questions Radio4 Manchester.

      Unfortunately it won’t play in my location, so I can only go with what was said above that it stated what the SNP were doing was working and that Westminster would be checkmated shortly.

      Hope it’s suitably deggeratable.

    100. manandboy says:

      Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is a British politician serving as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and Leader of the Conservative Party since July 2019.

      He has been Member of Parliament for Uxbridge and South Ruislip since 2015 and was MP for Henley from 2001 to 2008. Wikipedia

      Partner: Carrie Symonds Trending
      Children: Lara Lettice Johnson, Theodore Apollo Johnson, Cassia Peaches Johnson, Milo Arthur Johnson

      Mr Johnson is strictly Establishment, unquestionably entitled, irremediably superior, totally contemptuous, and utterly dismissive of the indigenous peoples of English Colonies.

      In addition, he is ring-fenced by the Unionist media and a designated protected species.

      It is believed among the Establishment community, that he is above the Law, and can do virtually whatever he wants.

      The concepts of respect, equality and cooperation are de facto alien to him.

      He abhors Democracy.

    101. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Fireproofjim @ 23:19,

      Exactly. (Saved me the effort, thanks!)

      There’s been a lot of kite-flying tonight. It must be getting windy somewhere…

    102. Kangaroo says:

      manandboy
      Right on cue, here is an English perspective from the erascible Dr Richard North who is an expert on all things brexity.

      Its a good laugh; an excerpt “Johnson, a serial liar, philanderer and sexual incontinent…”

      http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87379

    103. Robert Louis says:

      And for those who don’t believe the English establishment is going on forums and social media to distort opinions etc.. Just see this. A British English Army, member of their 77th Brigade, works for twitter. And twitter, bizarrely says ‘that’s fine and dandy’.

      https://sputniknews.com/military/201909301076927374-gordon-macmillan-twitter-77th-brigade/

    104. Ken500 says:

      Not very good at espionage. There are few follower/viewers. A failure. The posts could be a conflict of interest. A breach of employment code/terms and conditions. Bringing the company into dispute. A sackable offence. Inform the company of the extra curriculum activities. Not a good company look or professional. He could get the dunt.

    105. Socrates MacSporran says:

      OFF-TOPIC

      The evolution of right-wing politics: Ronald Reagan was known to break into his film back catalogue and ask his supporters to: Win one for the Gipper.

      I cannot see De Piffle being as-successful, encouraging his supporters to: Win one for the Groper.

    106. robertknight says:

      Same from RT. Well I never…

      “Twitter editorial executive is British Army ‘psyops’ soldier – report”

      https://www.rt.com/uk/469915-twitter-executive-psyops-army/

    107. Dorothy Devine says:

      Socrates , having read some of the guff from last night your intervention brought a smile to my physog – thank you

    108. Golfnut says:

      @ Liz g.

      The EU are not amused, the non papers, which I think demonstrates how seriously the border suggestion is being taken, fall far short of a viable option.
      However, Boris, heaving noted how successful the last attempt to bypass Brussels was, have decided to send details of the proposal to each of the 27 members by email or was it by text.
      I don’t really think this is a serious proposal, more about blaming Brussels, EU baad.

    109. Ken500 says:

      Johnston could be the shortest and worst PM in parliamentary history. Quite an achievement. The dope on the rope going down in history as a loser. Before the Tories getting boot out. The dope groper on a rope, loser. Quite a feat. After loser Cameron, loser May. The biggest loser of all. Johnston.

      Who wants the poison chalice? Step up losers. How low can they go. Even lower. Osbourne the doper. Cameron the alcoholic. May the abuser. Johnston the loser. Roll up. Roll up for the next contender before they get booted out. A game changer. The next imbecile, halfwit loser to apply. Even shorter candidacy. What a total shambles. Chaotic mess of idiocy.

    110. Hamish100 says:

      Lets help the Irish out by placing controls at Scotland providing we are still in the EU or at worst efta. England should be happy.

    111. Rep of Ireland uses the euro and UK uses the pound,

      how hard or easy does this make trade (local and national) across the UK/RoI border,

      was there concerns when RoI joined the euro and ditched the Irish pound that trade across the border would be harder.

    112. Heart of Galloway says:

      Got a VERY expensive mail shot through the door yesterday from BoJo’s man in Scotland, Alister Jack.

      It’s a glossy, double-sided, six-page pile of keech about what a wonderful MP he is, with the backdrop of a union flag waving across the corners.

      It’s main message is *drumroll* “No to a second independence referendum” just as it was in 2017. Groper Johnson does not rate a mention.

      We are up against a powerful and well-funded enemy whose sole aim is to “bind Scotland fast”.

      The SNP blundered strategically in 2017 by sidelining independence. The same mistake will not be made again.

    113. galamcennalath says:

      Back to fundamentals.

      The simple unavoidable truth, from which all the current chaos flows, is that England cannot have a hard Brexit and the UK survive.

      Before EURef this was made clear by anyone which their head screwed on. Even TMay said just before the referendum that if Leave won, Northern Ireland would need to stay close to the EU. The essence of the Good Friday Agreement / Belfast Treaty was that the North and Republic would converge on many fronts under EU membership.

      The Backstop in the Withdrawal Agreement is an insurance policy to protect the peace. Any alternative which amounts of divergence is a betrayal and will be considered unacceptably internationally.

      If Northern Ireland gets a special arrangement, then why not Scotland? This is a Scotland which was promised that voting NO in 2014 guaranteed ongoing EU membership. This is a Scotland becoming increasingly exasperated by the way it is treated. From a Scottish perspective, the UK only had one thing going for it … EU membership. What else does the UK actually do for Scotland?

      If England wants out of customs union and the single market, it can’t expect Northern Ireland and Scotland to follow.

      The Tories, blinded by far right ideology and English Nationalism will just not face up to the truth. They want a hard Brexit and to maintain the UK. That’s impossible.

    114. Ottomanboi says:

      Another day dawns and Scotland appears no nearer to independence.
      Stop Brexit, however, is still the favorite in the SNP derby although it hasn’t a cat in hells chance.
      Oh, the grandeur of delusion.

    115. re upcoming GE

      Scottish tories apparently furious that Carlaw has backed leaving with NO DEAL without consulting them – is that code for Ruth is mightily displeased?

      They fear a snap winter GE as traditional voters will stay at home – excuses already for why they are going to lose

      they then go on to say that they want the election AFTER the Salmond trial when the SNP will be in disarray…

      Perfidious England at its best.

    116. Famous15 says:

      Now that a Twitter executive has been outed as a psyops officer in the 77th Brigade of the British Army I will play a subtle game of spot the 77th squaddie on Wings Over Scotland, It is not a persecution complex you got if they really are out to get you. Y’all.

      Independence is inevitable and the normal state for a nation!

    117. Bob Mack says:

      Can I be your fist capture ?pleeasse.(pretty please)

      Time for coffee Sarge.

    118. jfngw says:

      I see the latest proposals from the UK for NI seems to like the old ‘demilitarised zone’ of previous conflicts. Maybe they will call it a ‘decustomised zone’ so it doesn’t sound so regressive.

    119. Robert Kerr says:

      Completely O/T

      Was in Edinburgh yesterday. Two things of Note.

      Exhibition in National Library on the Scottish Enlightenment

      Next Door the French Consulate as always was flying the Tricolore and the EU Flag. Glad no butchers apron there. Flags at half mast due to death of Jaques Chirac.

      Soon!

    120. Liz g says:

      Golfnut @ 8.18
      Your probably right Golfnut. It’s hard to say which is the more disturbing though,that Johnstone is ” playing ” at solving the Irish Border issues,or,that he really “believes” that this rubbish is the solution?

    121. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bob mac @ 10:10 pm , bet u wished you had kept the vinnie, big bucks now,
      Its Velocettes I like most, especially the racers, wish i could afford one!

    122. Bob Mack says:

      @Lenny Hartley,

      My old nejghbour ,now sadly deceased,had a beautiful Velocette which he cleaned weekly. His family sold it before he died and he was broken hearted. I tnink the bike kept him going.

      I made good money on my Vincent(Black Knight) as it was oe of only 200 ever made before Vincent went bust i n 55?

    123. Ken500 says:

      The SNP did not take Independence off the agenda, The first Rule in the agenda rule book the belief in Independence for Scotland. Written down for all to see including and supported by the members.

      The 2015 SNP Election achievement was one of the highest in electoral political history. Since 1928 Universal Suffrage. The highest achievement ever, Even higher than the Labour landslide victory 1945? One of the highest ever,

      The benchmark achieved was exceptionally high. No doubt as a result of the declaration of Evel on the steps of Downing Street. People realised the had been duped with lies and broken promises. Just as the EURef. Unionists lies and broken promises

      May decided to go for another election. 2017. The Tories lost more seats. Lost an larger majority. The Tory losers,

      The SNP still gains a sizeable majority but not as outstanding as the exceptional 2015. It could be expected a re adjustment, but still a substantial victory. Out voting all other parties. Just a readjustment. A normal reaction. To the massive outstanding victory of 2015. Difficult to repeat in any circumstances. Until the next GE. Another major feat.

      An illegal party emerged. The Ruth Davidson anti Independence Party. To dupe the voters again. Totally illegal under electoral Laws but funded illegally by Tory unionist supporters. Black funds and campaigning. Totally illegally. Against electoral rules and gerrymandering. Some of them have paid for it with their position, ie Ruth Davidson no longer leader of the Tories. Paid for the duplicity with her position. For all the lies and illegal activity. Another one gone, another one down. Another one hits the dust.

      Do not ever trust a Tory. Especially in Scotland. They started all of this mess and shambles. Total lying sycophants. A public disgrace. Death and destruction. They will pay for it. At the Ballot Box. Their supporters are getting killed off. Austerity. So is everyone else, illegally. Watch them try and start a war, illegally. To try and divert attention. Trump refused to start trouble on the Russian border although Johnston wanted it. Even more turmoil and strife, Wasting public money. Johnston the waster. Losing public money.

      2017 voter fatigue. To many elections. After elections. The voters stayed away to register their disgust of Westminster Gov. Most had just had enough. It was also raining heavily in some areas. The LibDems voted with the Tories, The fence sitters made their move. A perfect storm, Now regretting it re Brexit. The next election will be a different kettle of fish. A perfect Tory Brexit storm. Sweeping them aside. Especially in Scotland. The EU matters brought down Thatcher. Deja Vu. Geoffrey Howe, A few choice words got rid of Thatcher. .

      Everything to play for to embrace a better world.

    124. Ken500 says:

      The loser’s back, Too much time and looking for attention but nothing much to say.

    125. RobertTheTruth says:

      @Famous15

      There was another poster here called ‘geeo’ who made it their mission to hunt down those that they felt were not pure enough. They got banned because they were horrible and went after Terry, amongst others.Is there someone else who does that here?

      What makes you think you have any expertise in this matter? Maybe you are deflecting because you are afraid your handler has told you to up your game ? Are you worried you are about to be outed?

      I can tell you there are a number of posters here who post under more than one name – they use clusters of phrases and the construction of their sentences are uncannily similar. A simple piece of software can detect it. They all post similar sentiments to the one you have voiced. They go after posters who disagree with their orthodoxy, the end result is to put people off posting a range of opinions.

      Shall I say who they are? Or will we wait for you oops – they – to show themselves up?

    126. Bob Mack says:

      @Ken500,

      Go back to sucking your thumb. It will help you stop typing nonsense.

      I now expect some sort of rant.

    127. Famous15 says:

      Pretty please @ 9.22 am .

      If the shoe fits,eat it!

    128. Bob Mack says:

      @Famous15,

      Yum yum.

    129. Famous15 says:

      @ 9.11 Disagree with your orthodoxy you say?

      If someone unrelentingly undermines your wish for independence I would say that my little game of spot the 77th is too easy for an adult game .

    130. hackalumpoff says:

      Nobile officium AKA “nob off” case begins:

      https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1178958968728801280

    131. Cubby says:

      Adam Boulton Sky news says Hong Kong used to be a British responsibility. I think the word you are looking for Adam is colony.

      Britnats cannot make up their minds if the British Empire is a good thing or not. Some want to casually hide the past, like Adam, others revel in the glory of conquering and murdering people all over the world – for good reasons, of course, the enrichment of the British and the civilisation of the natives.

      Lots of Britnat media coverage of protests for democracy all over the world like Hong Kong but not so much for the friendly peaceful Scottish independence protests just up the road from London. London wants democracy across the world but just not for Scotland.

    132. Proud Cybernat says:

      Here’s what the SNP will face at coming GE: https://twitter.com/GraceBrodie/status/1178954283880009729

      They were warned about going down this path.

    133. RobertTheTruth says:

      @Famous15

      ‘… unrelentingly undermines your wish for independence…’

      Who would that be? Those who keep telling you to sit tight and wait or those who search for other means to effect change?

      The most dispiriting thing is to be constantly told you cannot have what you want because ‘now is not the time’ and those who have the power to change that are doing nothing about it.

      Now back to your witch hunt, whoever you are. If you cannot argue your case without discrediting the poster first, it is not much of a case is it?

    134. Famous15 says:

      GOTCHA!

    135. Bob Mack says:

      @Robert the Truth,

      Imagine people who behaved like this in the real world.They would be tzken to their GP by family members.

    136. Cubby says:

      Customs Clearance Centres

      Just another time waster. No deal exit is heading our way – sooner or later.

      Well done the Britnats. After laying waste to N.ireland for decades they now want to repeat the trick. At the top of the lying Britnat pyramid there are seriously nasty people. Below them are some seriously bigoted people followed by some seriously stupid people.

      If a poster claims there are no Britnats posting as an independence supporter on Wings then they are either very naive or a Britnat. Take your pick.

    137. RobertTheTruth says:

      @Bob Mack

      It is so obvious as well.The same people all the time. They are not even any good at it.

      Wings is the site that is the biggest threat to the UK establishment. Undermine Wings, promote the SNP and you have your status quo. Job done.

    138. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,

      Dont worfy Cubby, Famous is on the case !!

    139. Liz g says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 10.32
      They were well warned…. I think that’s partly why Ruth the Mooth left. She supported it as did all the other parties.
      The new leader of their Scottish branch will likely be against it and make it an issue to try to turn an election on!
      The Trans People are a small enough group to be chucked under a bus by the Tories without any real electoral consequences,and they too were warned that they were being used as a political pawn.It wasn’t the political parties the Trans People needed on side to affect change,it never was,it was and is Women whom they needed to meet halfway!

    140. galamcennalath says:

      Cubby says:

      enrichment of the British and the civilisation of the natives

      Civilisation LOL

      I read somewhere recently that in 1800 the estimated GDP and average standard of living of India was higher that the UK’s.

      Then followed 150 years of industrial scale (literally) plunder, abuse, and general ripping off.

      You need heavily rose tinted specs to put a positive spin on the British Empire. And of a large percentage of the UK population don’t have a scoobie what actually happened. The two main thrusts of the Empire revolved firstly around slavery in the Caribbean and America providing sugar, cotton, and tobacco. Then secondly opium from India being sold in China, the money laundered then used to buy tea to be shipped back. The British Empire was the biggest criminal enterprise in history.

    141. Doug says:

      Thank god there’s Ireland.

    142. Cubby says:

      Galamcennalath@11.03am

      “The British Empire was the biggest criminal enterprise in history”.

      It certainly was. Yet even today we have a head of state that hands out “honours” celebrating people as a Commander of the British Empire CBE. Seems like not everyone agrees with us that travelling around the world, murdering people, enforcing a membership of the British empire and then looting resources is something to be deplored. Sad in 2019 that these opinions still exist.

    143. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@10.51am

      “Don’t worry Cubby…..”

      Cheers Bob. I won’t – there are more than enough worriers about on Wings. So many independence supporters posting on Wings seem to be so convinced that independence is not going to happen I wonder how they get out of bed in the morning with all that Doom and gloom swirling about in their head.

      Thanks for your concern. Much appreciated. Hope your hands are holding up ok with all that posting you have been doing. I will concede that you were right in your previous post to say this thread is not yours but everyone’s. So there you are Bob a winning point for you.

    144. dadsarmy says:

      “nob off”

      I like it 🙂

      Seems very appropriate for BoJo, somehow.

    145. RobertTheTruth says:

      If you want to maintain the integrity of the UK but pretend that you are representative of all the voices therein, how would you go about?

      Well, you would ‘allow’ a party to exist that notionally represents Independence but neuter them through vagaries of voting in Holyrood. You would ‘allow’ them certain legislative powers but none that give any real power.

      You would undermine the desire for Indy by setting thresholds and saying that until there is a majority in the polls you won’t act on anything. You would write polite letters asking for a chat about Independence but when they are rebuffed you lick your wounds and go away. You say you want an election, a VONC but you allow Unionist Westminster parties to dictate when. You effectively amplify the message that this is not the time’.

      If there is a site that challenges these strategies and posters highlight this, you turn on THEM and the site owner accusing THEM of being in the 77th. You discredit the site owner by questioning his Indy credentials. You go on other sites and tut tut about WoS and how it has ‘lost its way’, make insinuations about money and the site owners’s questions about GRA reform and the direction of the SNP.

      Now who on this site constantly does that? Who benefits if WoS falls?

    146. galamcennalath says:

      Boris’ alternative to backstop …

      “1) Would the integrity of their single market be protected, could they be sure rogue goods and food from Northern Ireland would not taint their market?

      2) Would the increased friction in trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic endanger the fragile peace on the island of Ireland?

      3) Does Johnson have the authority in parliament to secure agreement for a new deal from MPs, if EU leaders meet some of his demands? “

      …chances of him succeeding? Not high IMO.

      So the real choice is delay or illegally crash out. Exciting times.

      http://archive.is/LIPRI

    147. Famous15 says:

      Independence is inevitable.

      Independence is the normal state for a nation.

      Why let fools destroy your future. For your friends and family take back control of your own destiny.

    148. Cubby says:

      Britnats believe that telling the truth is an illness to be avoided.

    149. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – re the survey on attitudes to GRA and self ID: it is also an issue that Labour may be pursuing. I had no response from the SNP to four emails asking for clarity on their policy. Not even an acknowledgement. But I have now had two emails form Labour MSPs offering help.

      Contrast this with Shirley Anne Somerville telling an LGBT rally last Saturday that the Scottish Government will reform the GRA and that trans women are women. Video of this is circulating on twitter. This is the same SAS who is too busy to meet representatives of women’s groups who disagree with the policy but regularly meets trans lobbyists.

      Promising a consultation and announcing the outcome before the consultation has happened is not good practice.

      But they were well warned so I can only conclude that they expect to reap thousands of votes from the ordinary members of the public who, until now, had no idea what this policy is about.

    150. RobertTheTruth says:

      Who would most like to see this site eliminated because it asks awkward questions?

      Who has gone ballistic that a poll asking questions about the GRA reform has highlighted the utter madness of the policy?

      I ask again, who benefits most from denigrating posters who ask questions about the SNP strategy?

    151. Dr Jim says:

      Acouple of days ago I watched a programme warning that there will be shortages of fresh fruit and veg post Brexit and they explained in great detail why

      This morning scientists have informed the nations that they’ve discovered that eating more meat and dairy is actually fine and dandy even though they’ve been telling us for umpteen years meat bad more cancers

      What a lucky coincidence that that’s the very thing we’ll have enough of post Brexit

    152. Cubby says:

      The British Empire

      The British Empire along with other empires like the Roman Empire can be taught in schools or other places of education in basically 3 ways:

      1. Fact based and totally objective with no value judgements.

      2. A negative value judgement applied to the empire.

      3. A positive value judgement paced on the empire.

      Guess which way the UK likes to apply in its schools to the British Empire.

    153. John H. says:

      galamcennalath says:

      “The British Empire was the biggest criminal enterprise in history.”

      As this book proves.

      “Cruel Britannia” by Ian Cobain, a history of British torture.

    154. manandboy says:

      It appears that Westminster can only do politics, including economics, when it is bolted into a framework of psychological operations (PsyOps) aka propaganda, including data harvesting & micro-targeting, aka lying from a to z to the electorate and the general public, as well as to the European Union.

      It feels like we are all swimming in a UK completely flooded with Westminster’s lies, a pool of virtual quicksand, being slowly sucked under.

      Independence – our only hope, sadly now under impending further threat because of the SNP leadership’s Achilles Heel, its obsession with inclusivity/trans-gender self-id, soon to be targeted apparently by the Unionist Alliance in the forthcoming General election campaign.

      But, hey, nobody’s perfect.

      After 312 years of often brutal and cruel English Rule and exploitation without limit, let’s not blow Independence this time around by focusing on temporary issues to do with personality and individual tastes, but instead rather on the permanent ones of self-determination, freedom and self-government.

      It is time to break chains wrapped around the Sovereignty of the Scottish people by the English Establishment and Ruling Class for 312 years.

    155. desimond says:

      Theres a reason that they tell you to secure your own safety before tending to others before a big plane crash.

      I can appreciate the SNP trying to do the right thing and trying to save so many in UK from a terrible Brexit fate but sadly they have painted themselves almost into a corner and have become a part of the Westminster establishment.

      Pete Wisharts recent “joke” at wanting to become next Speaker said it all…I don’t care if it was all for a laugh and piss-take.. I don’t want us playing any of their games and all focus should be on the ultimate goal, always.

      Remember when we laughed at Ruth and Co shouting “Get on with the day job!”..seems SNP took it a little to heart.

      I don’t see a grand plan, and whilst “Don’t interrupt your enemies…” is a nice idea, we need to show some fight, unleash Joanne Cherry, lets get some anger out there.

      Declare what the Independence intention is before any GE manifesto is just “Our Brexit Plan” and gets lost in the Farage deafening hubbub

      Boris is not going down easily, if at all, and should he win a majority ( or even a coalition with Brexit and/or Swinsons Fanc Club) then we are doomed. Holyroods powers will get closed one way or another and we will all suffer as the Croydon pound philosophy takes hold.

      2nd class Scotland prepare for the worst unless you do better.

    156. RobertTheTruth says:

      The leader of a party with unprecedented goodwill after IndyRef1 is surrounded by Civil Servants and SpAds whispering in their ear that their charismatic predecessor may be trying to undermine them. This takes a sinister turn.

      Suddenly everyone is under suspicion. An influx of new members many with their own agenda meanwhile are lobbying hard for ‘progressive’ policies. They get the ear of the beleaguered leader who is totally suckered into supporting this with no way out. The distraction levels are sky high.The main focus is lost. Something needs to be done because the grass roots are getting restless.

      Indy sites then become swamped with huge waves of propaganda to dampen down any dissent. Wings is under attack both personally and from people who claim to support the site. The niggles start.

      Then full blown war.

      And the people who highlight this are the ‘bad guys. Really?

    157. Bob Mack says:

      @Desimond,

      The problem with playing two agendas is simply this. You can very easily be sucked in to playing one of the two more than the other.

      Independence is the SNP game. The routine of Parliament is Westminsters game. The SNP are now concerned by the rules laid down by Westminster as well as the agenda and time scales.

      I want to see them cast those aside. I want them to disrupt and hinder Westminster whenever possible.

      The only one I see doing that is Ms Cherry.

      we are actually too busy helping at a cost to our ultimate aims.

    158. frogesque says:

      @desmond: 1.08

      Joanna Cherry is reported to be going on the Edinburgh march this Saturday. Bring on the fire!

    159. Terry callachan says:

      This is interesting

      I reckon the outcome in Northern Ireland will have a huge impact on what happens regarding Scottish independence.

      The British border across Ireland separating Ulster from the rest is the main topic in brexit negotiations again.
      Any sort of hard border even one a bit of distance away from the actual border will cause trouble let’s see what the outcome of the negotiations are because whatever they are they will affect Scotland and Scottish independence

      https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2019/09/11/majority-of-uk-voters-including-scots-would-encourage-a-united-ireland-and-are-prepared-to-vote-tactically-for-a-brexit-outcome/

    160. manandboy says:

      “THEN WE ARE DOOMED ”

      “Boris is not going down easily, if at all, and should he win a majority ( or even a coalition with Brexit and/or Swinsons Fanc Club) then we are doomed. Holyroods powers will get closed one way or another and we will all suffer as the Croydon pound philosophy takes hold.”

      Nah, nah, nah. A thousand times nah. Defeatist nonsense, ignoring Scotland’s legal position under the Act of Union, and the untouchable Sovereignty of the Scottish people. Not to mention the consequences for trade which would plunge the rUK into Third World conditions.

      And in any event, unless Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson PM, completely changes his spots, he is on the right track toward failure, and rejection by the Establishment and his own Party. By refusing to obey the Law, and by disrespecting the Supreme Court, Johnson is committing political & electoral suicide. He just doesn’t know it yet.

    161. Bob Mack says:

      @Terry Callachan,h

      Those are grezt posta Terry. They remind us of why the SNP is untouchable in Scotland. They must stay focused on what the voters want tnougb.

    162. dadsarmy says:

      Luckily, the totally secret 1320 Society has undiasporaed and reformed, and after their recent stop in Japan to drop off some of their secret elixir, will shortly be arriving back in Scotland having made contact with us members here already.

      I could tell you who is the head of the 1320 Society, who is already here in Scotland, but then my three person cell and I would have to [redacted] you.

      Be aware, Scotland needs wares.

    163. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      The goose is on the water.

      This message will self destruct in 5 seconds

    164. RobertTheTruth says:

      Oh and Brexit don’t forget about that. Always Brexit at the forefront of every stalled move forward. We can’t have Indy because we are busy with Brexit…

      Every condition set has been met for another IndyRef. The mandate is there, the support is there. What has to happen next?

      And still there are people here who consume themselves all day every day with the minutiae of who has not met the purity of thought, word and motive test that they created in their own tiny minds. Soon there will be just the 5 of them, telling each other ‘great post’ because it does not disturb their comfortable one dimensional view of what what support for Indy is.

      Yes, imagine living like that every day, suspicious of people you have never met, attributing lives and motives with no basis other than they they have a different opinion of how to achieve independence.

      Yet when it is done to them they rail against it as if we must believe they are above the suspicion they constantly cast on others?

      It must be exhausting. I worry for them. This is enough for me for now, real life and fresh air beckons.

    165. dadsarmy says:

      To all cells:

      “You’ll have had your Brexit then”.

    166. Proud Cybernat says:

      To the shit-stirrers, doom merchants and general disrupters here (you know who you are and so do we) – hey, guess what?

      WE’RE ALL STILL VOTING INDY AND YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO CHANGE THAT.

      Indy support is STILL RISING and you cannot STOP IT with your
      shite posted here.

      But do carry on – I totally love watching the desperation. Your UK is FUKCED. Get over it.

    167. wull2 says:

      As far as I am concerned the clock has been wound up for the last time.
      Vote SNP/SNP nothing else.

    168. Cubby says:

      I heard Truthless Davidson (remember her) was on Celebrity Chase. Surely Pointless Celebrity would be more appropriate.

    169. Cubby says:

      Some of the glass half empty Independence supporters should pitch up in Edinburgh on Sat it might help raise your spirits. You can watch it on independence live but the real boost to your spirits will come from participating.

    170. Dr Jim says:

      Just had a letter from the Scottish social attitudes research folk to take part in their studies and they give you a voucher for a free tenner to collect at the post office for participating

      Happy days I’m off to collect my £tenner

    171. Cubby says:

      What was worse Accuri sleeping with Johnson or taking public funds for doing so – all allegedly of course.

    172. robertknight says:

      Terry Callaghan…

      The trouble with talking up a United Ireland is that the knuckle draggers and mouth breathers, who dress up as tin soldiers and march up and down playing penny whistles, will leave the former British Ulster in droves and set up shop in Ayrshire and Lanarkshire where they will continue to spout their sectarian bile whilst violently displaying their Ultra-Yoon credentials.

      I’d rather Ireland remained partitioned until such time as Scotland has left the UK if that’s ok with you.

    173. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic. BREXIT. The Tories in Scotland do a U-Turn.
      She’s gone, and the big fellas move in and toe the Head Office line.

      The National newspaper yesterday
      https://tinyurl.com/y4wmf2qx

      Scotland didn’t vote for Exiting the European Union. End of.

    174. Bob Mack says:

      Proud Cybernat has gone over to the crazy side.

    175. Jack Murphy says:

      TODAY. BREXIT and Labour.
      ” Labour has rejected the idea of a “government of national unity” – headed by a figure like Ken Clarke or Margaret Beckett – to prevent a no-deal Brexit.

      Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said any interim government – formed after the removal of Boris Johnson – must be headed by Jeremy Corbyn……”
      BBC Politics on-line.

      LibDem Jo Swinson MP for Dunbartonshire East rejects Corbyn as temporary PM and now Labour rejects!

      Are these people really serious?

    176. Ken500 says:

      All of Ireland wanted Home Rule/Independence. The mass movement was led by Protestant landowners/estate owners because the Catholics were denied rights. To own a horse (transport), carry a sword (Defence) etc. Eg Charles Stuart Parnell. Same in Scotland. The Jacobites or those who resisted Westminster imbecile rule. Now people have the vote. They can go through the Ballot.
      The Westminster unionists impose electoral systems to benefit them in NI and Scotland. D’Hond’t, STV etc. The 3rd loser wins.

      An Irish Home Rule Bill was scheduled to be passed into Law two weeks after the start of the 1WW. It was postponed. This led to the illegal Partition. 1923. Lloyd George. To suit the unionists at Westminster. Universal Suffrage 1928. Even after 1918 the Irish could have voted for Home Rule/Independence. Thwarted by Unionists.

      Ireland can vote to reunite. Demographics are changing,

    177. Dr Jim says:

      Swinson’s a Lib Dem Tory so would never support anybody else no matter what the reason
      What she’s doing is letting Boris Johnson know that she’a available to vote for him in return for a coalition if he wins a GE just like they had before and a cushy number for her in it

      Brexit is of no concern to Jo Swinson, that’s only a problem for poor people and the like, she’ll always be able to claim her tooth floss on expenses

      Career Career Career

    178. Dr Jim says:

      Boris Johnson is at the tailors being measured up for his rest of life Kevlar suit

    179. frogesque says:

      @Dr. Jim: 4.08

      Jo Swinson will have to be re-elected in a GE first.

      Smiley thingy.

    180. galamcennalath says:

      Reuters…

      ” U.S. investment bank JPMorgan raised the probability of an extension to Brexit to 85% from 60% and cut the likelihood of a no-deal departure from the European Union.”

      … and yet the Tories still talk of successful new withdrawal agreements, and leaving one way or another on Hallowe’en.

    181. Dr Jim says:

      @Frogesque 4:24pm

      True, she’ll have to find an English seat to do it in because East Dunbartonshire looks like it’s eventually cottoned on to her, well the young folk have

      I’m doing my best to help her on her far away way

    182. Sandy says:

      Is Boris trying to broaden his gene foothold in England?
      (National: today: Kirsty Strickland.)

    183. callmedave says:

      Ha! But..but Swinson “I’ll do anything to prevent Brexit” and

      Christine Jardine says the other night. “Aye! that’s true but not Jeremy as temporary PM, he’s not got the confidence of the house”

      Now Labour saying “Jeremey is the one and only!”

      SNP FGS!
      “We’ll be forced to go on our own maybe but nobody will hold our beer?” 🙁

    184. Hamish100 says:

      Has to be the leader of the SnP in the commons as PM!!

    185. dadsarmy says:

      My guess it the Tories will be looking for a new treasurer of the 1922 committee 🙂

    186. twathater says:

      Peter Bell has written a personal letter to the FM in his blog well worth a read

    187. @Jockanese Wind Talker 7.13

      I have done a lot of research on where oil is landed v’s where exports are credited to. This oil will not be treated by the UK as a Scottish export

      Oil landed in Holland is credited as an export from London and the SE of England. Greater than 60% of Scottish oil and gas is treated in this way to put together the UK regional export statistics

      In a similar manner, most of Scottish Whiskey is credited as an export from London on the grounds that Diageo and other companies are registered for VAT there.

      Electricity produced in Scotland is credited to London and the SE and to NE England if exported to France or Ireland. Ditto gas

      There are several other gross inaccuracies in estimating Scottish exports arising from these adjustments. UK stats do not credit Scotland for trade in services (e.g. banking, tourism) and intangibles (e.g. financial investments or transfers)

      But despite all of this Scotland has always had – even according to UK Government ‘adjusted’ statistics a massive quarterly export surplus

      UK export statistics for England show massive quarterly deficit going back to the 1960’s – despite getting the credit for most of Scotland’s major exports using the adjustments above and others.

      Were Scotland’s real exports to be reflected in the official statistics they would be ‘off the graph’ compared to rUK

      see here for the 4 UK Nations latest ‘official’ adjusted statistics https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/RTS/Pages/default.aspx

      I had a long FoI war with these lovely people in 2016 and 2017 querying the basis of their statistics

      For instance, all petroleum products consumed in Scotland were treated in the statistics as an import from England.

      I eventually forced a few minor adjustments (£billions) which they refused to backdate to correct the historical data. Most of the gross irregularities in accounting for regional imports and exports were not corrected.

      The Scottish Government publishes its own analysis of exports and imports which is obviously considerably at odds with the brigade 77-style stats above and reflects well on Scotland. See https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication

      But even these stats still do not reflect the full (positive) picture

      I did write to Stu suggesting that Wings sponsor a couple of PhD’s on this subject to accurately reflect imports and exports going back (say) 20 or 30 years.

      Data is all published and the adjustments made to the UK official statistics reversible to find the true figure.

    188. Bob Mack says:

      @CadoganEnright,

      I would love to see that research. What that fantastic bit of detective work would do for indy is beyond description.

    189. Socrates MacSporran says:

      It’s an old and cynical joke, but, watching De Piffle waffle on truly is a case of knowing when a politician is lying – definitely when his lips are moving.

    190. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      RobertTheTruth @ 14:04,

      Oh, pleease. You made your point a very long time ago and now you sound like an old stuck shellac record. Can you not start to make some positive contributions instead of the same predictable old moan? As it stands, you are just scroll fodder, so you might as well not bother.

    191. Dr Jim says:

      On a no deal Brexit

      Alister Jack Scottish sec of state says the Scottish Conservatives ahave been brought into line with the rest of the UK party

      So far we haven’t heard any of them bark or even whimper, maybe Ruth Davidson will howl or whine

      But I doubt it

    192. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Heart of Galloway @ 08:51,

      Huh, that fusty old tactic really worked out well for the Tories in the EU elections, so not-so-good luck to them in the forthcoming elections. With Alister I’m-all-right Jack in front, Boris in behind and the SNP taking them full no-prisoners head-on over our rights, it’s going to be fun, fun, fun!

      UKGEs are by no means the ideal opportunity, but this one will surely ratchet up the pressure nicely. Let’s focus on it and see what develops thereafter.

    193. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 18:15,

      Craven and useless. But at least there’s no doubt now about what they truly are, and who/what they really represent, having sloughed-off Buffalo Gal’s carefully-confected humanoid skin.

    194. Cubby says:

      Now we know why Jack was given the secretary of state against Scotland job. This guy is an even bigger groveller than Mundell. These people have no shame – Scot Britnat Tories being told to come in to line with Westminster on a no deal Brexit – anyone who thinks these people will ever stand up for Scotland need their head examined as they must have been kicked in the head by a donkey.

      I hope every one of these Tories in Scotland get the boot at the next GE.

      Alexander and Truth posts I now scroll on by. Waste of time reading their same old crap.

    195. RobertTheTruth says:

      @Robert J Sutherland

      Apologies. I really don’t post that much.

      When I have something to be positive about, don’t worry I’ll let you know!

    196. Dr Jim says:

      We know the Irish border can’t be in Ireland, and we know it can’t be in Northern Ireland, and we know it can’t be in the sea

      But we know the way they keep moving this border it’s getting closer to my house every day and I’m in Glasgow, look out Edinburgh the Irish border will be round your way any day now

    197. Effijy says:

      I did some sums based on Javid’s let’s vote Boris in minimum wage projection.
      If the sum is £8.50 currently and with inflation increasing on the back of Brexit
      I see nothing reason to see inflation at a minimum of 4% over their proposed 5 year term.
      I make the minimum wage to be £10.35 over that term.

      So the £10.50 they propose in this case would mean employers finding and extra 3p per annum to add to the hourly rate!

    198. Dr Jim says:

      Priti Patel is going to introduce a new *Special Services* to police her immigration laws, she didn’t need the *pecial or the ervices* she could’ve just cut it short to SS , easier to say, trips off the tongue don’t you think

    199. Dan says:

      Does anyone know what the script is with BoJo stating there will be 40 new hospitals built (or existing ones reconditioned).
      How does that sit with previous PM’s policy and the Naylor report.
      Wonder if tax payers are going to see their dues being funneled to big construction firms who will build the shiny new hospitals, only to see said hospitals sold off to the private sector on the cheap.

    200. jfngw says:

      Boris Johnson meets his Scottish underlings and informs them of the consequences of not supporting his no deal.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpZ3QgcxHrs

    201. Bob Mack says:

      @Dan,

      Government is going to rake in a fortune over the next few years from new car sales.

      Basically old cars pre 2017,keep theif old tax rates, but new cars except electric pay a minimum of £135.

      They are also harging extra on diesel cars and those over £40,000. It is a huge revenue increase.

      Enough to finance their plans at our expense again.

    202. ahundredthidiot says:

      Priti Patel and her ilk are the very enemy of Humanity. It’s see you next tuesdays like her who have gotten the US in such a pickle with 17 odd security services all vying for the same buck – which means they will do whatever you want them too, in office hours and out. And we all know the kind of person drawn to security services…..unfortunately, so does Priti Patel.

      Englands own worst enemy has come to town.

    203. Terry callachan says:

      Robertknight…3.05pm

      The question of reunification of Ireland may well be settled before Scottish independence

      I say that because if a no deal brexit goes ahead and border checks in Ireland resume
      there will be trouble in Northern Ireland
      and I think that trouble will lead to a reunification referendum

      You might be right that some people move from NI to Scotland as a result of reunification
      But not if Scottish independence happens about the same time

    204. ahundredthidiot says:

      Terry Callachan @8:20

      I disagree – trouble in NI will have the opposite effect, which is why one might think that these nutjob little englander tories are deliberately trying to set the heather alight – they dont give two f*cks about peace in Ireland – it’s about status and power on the global stage for the GREATEST EMPIRE EVER KNOWN! – RULE BRITANNIA and all that pish.

    205. PacMan says:

      I’ve been skimming through the comments of this thread and there is a definite air of despondency amongst them towards both independence and the SNP. One post that caught my eye was one which mentioned that we the Scots people are too conservative in nature to ever want as big a change as independence.

      That is true but such a conservative attitude works both ways. We may not want change away from the status quo but we also don’t want to get rid of the things we take we granted.

      It reminds me of a chat I had with a work colleague. She is stupid in that she talks about how she is claiming single parent benefits even though her partner lives with her. She also constantly bad mouths the SNP all the time. Recently I gently reminded her, although not mentioning anything about how she is a benefits cheat, that the Scottish parliament has devolved powers over some benefits and that they will be taken away by the Tories if they get rid of the Scottish Parliament. It looks like the penny has dropped with her has she has kept her trap shut about the SNP since.

      It does seem rather than going on about independence, there needs to be a new message about preserving the Scottish Parliament. It is not perfect and has made many mistakes but it is far better than the Tory Government down in Westminster. This can be seen ever more clearly now where they are trampling all over democracy and society. The choice is simple preserving the rights you have even if that means by going for independence or have them taken away which the Tories will do. They illegally tied to prorogue Westminster and if they had the chance, they would shut it down. If they will do that, they will shut down the Scottish Parliament.

      If faced with that question, maybe the penny will drop with a lot of Scots people who enjoy the benefits of the Scottish parliament and give them something to think about.

    206. Fireproofjim says:

      CadoganEnright @5.37
      Re crediting oil exports to Scotland.
      I noticed that the new Lancaster field, West of Shetland, has now shipped four tanker loads to BP in Rotterdam over the last three months.
      That is 1.2 million barrels in total. Worth at least $75 million and this will continue at an increasing rate for the next thirty years at least
      If you are correct this will be credited to London, as will the billions of dollars to come from this field.
      The SNP should make much of this.
      Can you expand on this please.

    207. How can it be a `frictionless border` when both sides use different currencies,

      when travelling over the border you need to change/buy currencies,

      frictionless = effortless,

      clearly not effortless if you need to buy/exchange currencies.

    208. Cubby says:

      Pacman@8.51pm

      Shutting down the Scot parliament will mean in due course:

      No free university tuition

      No free childcare.

      No free elderly adult care.

      That tends to get people’s attention. I know because I tried it out recently. Net result some friends/family attending on Sat in Edinburgh who would never have thought of going before.

      A number of people have become comfortable with the benefits of Scottish devolution and they need to become aware that instead of the status quo things may go backwards.

    209. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye, true enough when they say there are “Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics” @
      cadogan Enright says at 5:37 pm

      I think your PhD proposal is a fantastic idea.

      I also believe all companies operating in Scotland should be legally compelled to submit Tax Returns to the Scottish Government breaking down sales/exports in/from Scotland (even though we don’t have control of VAT yet) for comparison with U.K. statistics.

      I also believe in actually taxing E&P Majors for extracting oil and gas from our territorial waters rather than giving them tax rebates as per Westminster.

    210. Terry callachan says:

      Westminster don’t tax the oil and gas extracted from Scottish waters
      The way they get the money from the oil companies is that they sell off areas of Scottish waters for oil and gas exploration to the highest bidders .

      All that money goes to Westminster
      There is a website the oil and gas authority which shows when and which areas are up for action

      But we never get the figures showing how much money they got from the auctioning

    211. Terry callachan says:

      Ahundredthidiot 8.28pm

      What is it you disagree with ?

      1) reunification of Ireland might happen before Scottish independence

      2)there will be trouble in Northern Ireland if brexit no deal and border checks go ahead

      3) resumption of troubles in Northern Ireland will lead to a referendum on reunification

      4) some people might move from Northern Ireland to Scotland if reunification of Ireland happens but not if Scottish independence happens about the same time

    212. Lenny Hartley says:

      Terry Callachan reoil and gas taxation, you are wrong , although Petroleum Revenue tax has been phased out, there is a special 30% corporation tax rate for Oil and gas production companies.

    213. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      No, I think I’m gonna be another Winger who gives up.

      If a comment goes into moderation, like what happened to me on the 30th September at 10.43am with my reply to Cubby’s comments of the evening before, you email to Rev Stu to ask “why” some hours later, you get no response, while Rev Stu is continually active on Twitter, you try again, tonight, with an explanation about the moderation WHICH ALSO GOES INTO MODERATION, you lose the urge to comment.

      Seeyiz on Saturday. You too, Cubby.

    214. manandboy says:

      Keith Brown is quite happy with the system in use in Scotland and the rest of the UK, even though “it’s quite antiquated”.

      So why does our voting system remain antiquated? As when Mears vans pick up the ballot boxes and deliver them to a central counting centre. Mears is part of the Unionist structure, yet they get to have possession of the ballot boxes for a while.

      While Keith Brown has no concerns.

    215. Dr. Jim @6.52

      That’s it then – my banner at the march in Edinburgh on Saturday will be : –

      ” No Hard border in Edinburgh – Humbug!”

    216. manandboy says:

      Brian Doonthetoon, don’t give up, Brian, the liklihood is that you will have used a banned word, without realising it. Stu’s software has ‘caught’ it in ‘fishing net’, and you’re left scratching your head in frustration. Been there, done that.
      Look through your comment to see if you can spot the offending word. For me, it was ‘saor’. Good luck!

    217. Dr Jim says:

      @Meg merrilees 10:08pm

      Too late Meg it’s in Rotterdam now

      Politics is sooo fast moving these days

    218. Dr Jim says:

      If your post contains letters like that lttle fruit that comes in green or red or black and quite often seedless
      or Canadian curtains the Gremlins will seek out and destroy your post

    219. Anybody seen the gruesome interview with Boris on BBC Scotland webpage? 9 Deliberately not including the link – he was on R4 Today and i had to switch it off he is such a liar)

      Did you know that the Scottish Nationalist Government’s inadequacies include:
      an appalling record on health in Scotland – NOT QUESTIONED OR CORRECTED BY THE BBC INTERVIEWER – e.g.could have talked about the A and E figures best in UK;

      an appalling record on education – BBC Interviewer could have pointed out NO tuition fees but Boris kept the best till last, lying blatantly –

      staring straight into the camera he stated that they (the UK Gov) promised Scotland that the 2014 indy ref was a once-in-a lifetime- event…. so now you know, it is on record for all time that it wasn’t Alex Salmond OR Nicola Sturgeon but the (p)UK government that PROMISED Scotland it was a once-in-a-lifetime event.

      Amazing how you change history at the flick of a finger eh? and now peeps have heard and seen it on the TV it will be set in stone like the Ten Commandments.

    220. Oh! Maybe that’s why they are protesting so much in Hong Kong!!!

    221. RM says:

      Has the SNP been infiltrated aye maybe higher up than you’d think maybe!

    222. Terry callachan says:

      Oil and gas taxation

      On 14 February 1973 the Parliamentary Public Accounts Committee issued its report “North Sea Oil and Gas” (HC122). It reflected a comprehensive review of the oil industry, government administration, and the exchequer implications.

      It noted that: “Under the present arrangements the UK will not obtain either for the Exchequer or the balance of payments anything like the share of the “take” of oil operations on the continental shelf that other countries are obtaining for oil within their territories. Indeed at present the only certain revenue from a large number of the North Sea operations is the royalty and licence payments. This situation needs close review…”. It was particularly concerned that profits from continental shelf operations could be offset by extraneous losses and capital allowances.

    223. Jock McDonnell says:

      @PacMan

      You might have read my post. In truth most electorates in most countries are ‘conservative’.
      Even in what we think of as rebellious Ireland. Compliant India is another example.
      My view is that positivity will take us so far, but like you imply, a little bit of pain & negativity might help too. Hope in the presence of despair. Please make the bad thing go away.

    224. call me dave says:

      Boris to reveal his deal at conference and has sent the details to Brussels.

      Special status for NI for 4-years

      “But…but will the DUP be happy?” asks interviewer!

      FFS! Hey! Will Scotland be happy? 🙁 BBC never thought to ask.

      Anyhoo! It wont fly says Ireland. Brussels should say the same.

      Not long now.

    225. Liz g says:

      Pac Man @ 8.51
      I agree, we need to be pointing out the flaws in the Union a lot more this time!
      While it’s all very fine to point out a pensioner that what they have is not at risk, ( and let’s face it a lot don’t believe us) reminding them that they risk the Tories coming after the little they do have ( TV license ect ) if we stay is also fair comment.

      Another thing I find quite useful to make them think,is pointing out that all the good jobs are kept in London.
      That doesn’t just keep all the high paying taxes there..
      A lot of pensioners have, or know someone who has, a Kid who has left for London. That’s an emotional unfairness of life in the Union that’s hard to argue against.
      To say that we want future Scottish kids to be able to stay here and still earn good money is,I think, an uncontroversial conversation!!

    226. Doug says:

      May and her Britnats always said they would never put up customs posts in the north of Ireland after brexit. They always claimed there was no need for them whatever happens.

      Johnson is now accepting customs posts will be needed regardless of brexit outcome – no-deal or deal.

      Small difference in britnat attitude I admit, but still a difference.

      Johnson definitely going for no-deal. He’s deliberately pissing off EU to ever higher levels.

      Ach, then again I could be totally wrong. Happy days.

    227. PacMan says:

      Cubby @ 1 October, 2019 at 9:09 pm

      Thank you for your kind words.

      Reflecting on what I said in previous post, we Scots are conservative in nature where he don’t like changes from the status quo that are new. We also don’t like changes from the status quo where things are taken away from this. We have seen this with the historical Scottish involvement in Trade unionism and workers rights, not to mention greater democratic rights with the support of most of Scottish society throughout the years for devolution.

      The status quo here and now is the Scottish parliament, which isn’t perfect and the current government not perfect as seen with the ongoing debate with GRA/Self ID, but since the SNP has taken over has done a lot of good both for Scotland as a whole and individual Scots and you mentioned Cubby with the benefits they receive which is not enjoyed in other parts of the UK.

      Brexit and the freedom it will give the Tory party in Westminster is a substantial threat to that status quo. If that happens and if Scots want to preserve the status quo which gives them benefits they would not normally receive, they will have to go for independence.

      It might seem double talk that for them to preserve the status quo they want they have to go for substantial change which they didn’t want in 2014. However, as well as these benefits, they are also losing EU citizenship and the benefits that goes with that. What is the more destructive change? The status quo which they experience now, albeit being an independent country in the EU or continuing being part of the UK which will involve substantial change, most likely for the worst for most ordinary Scots?

      If we are wanting any chance of independence, we need to get the support of the EU until we gain full membership. It is better to be a preferred country to the EU than a third country as what will happen to the UK after it leaves. To do that, we need to do everything we can to stop Brexit or to minimise the damage both to us and the EU. I know a lot of people in here don’t like and it feels like squandering our best chance for independence but we need to play it by the book and not be sneaky and underhand as the current Tory government if we are to win friends in the EU and hope for their protection and support in the early years of independence.

      The way things are going, Brexit is inevitable and nothing can stop it. Although in trying to stop it is futile, we simply can’t be seen to be facilitating it from happening even though it benefits our short term interests.

      Once Brexit plays out to it’s logical conclusion, then the Scots people need to ask themselves what path do they want to take. Do they take the blind leap towards independence or sit back and let what rights and benefits they currently enjoy be taken away from them?

    228. Liz g says:

      Call me Dave @ 10.29
      Happy doesn’t even come into it Dave lol..
      One day of “special” trading arrangements breaks the Treaty of Union….

      I know,I know it’s been broken many times since 1707…
      But the people of Scotland accepted this and ratified the Treaty only on 8/9/2014.
      Westminster accepted this!

      The Treaty is predominantly a Trading Treaty…
      So the question would become which Treaty do Westminster want to “try” to keep intact?
      The Good Friday Agreement or The 1707 Treaty of Union…
      Enquiring Scots need to Know?? 🙂

    229. Liz g says:

      Me @ 10.43
      18th September 2014… Duh… Obviously 🙂

      Jist as well I’m no writing Treaties… But I promise tae be mair careful wi the Constitution… 🙂 🙂 🙂

    230. shug says:

      Scotland needs the EU and NATO to protect it from London in the years after a vote

      Be assured London already has a department targeting and undermining everything Scottish and it will go into overdrive with an unrestricted budget as indyref2 approaches hence my belief that the run in for indyref2 must be swift

    231. PacMan says:

      Jock McDonnell says:1 October, 2019 at 10:23 pm

      My view is that positivity will take us so far, but like you imply, a little bit of pain & negativity might help too. Hope in the presence of despair. Please make the bad thing go away.

      I think it was your post that I read.

      I know it sounds like I am suggesting negativity but another way to look at it is that you would not work hard to better yourselves then knowingly beggar yourself. If you wouldn’t let that happen on a personal level why would you let it happen on a societal level which in turn will beggar you? In short, why would you let the things you worked hard for be taken away from you?

      There is no doubt that negativity and FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) was how the No campaign won in 2014. As seen, that was short lived. It could or couldn’t work for the Yes campaign in a future referendum but it needs to be framed like I had previously said in that independence is going to be leap of have for individual Scots and will present a lot of uncertainties but they are going to lose a lot by not voting for it. Are they willing to accept this?

      The simple fact is that this time the referendum will involve change regardless for ordinary Scots regardless of how they vote. What change do they want?

    232. galamcennalath says:

      From the Guardian … “Boris Johnson will lay out details of his final Brexit offer on Wednesday, setting up a high-stakes fortnight with a threat that if the EU27 fail to engage, he will press ahead with no deal.”

      … but, but, ‘no deal’ is supposed to be impossible now with the ‘Benn Act’ in place.

      So, Johnson talking bollocks or he has a plan to circumvent the will of parliament?

    233. Dr Jim says:

      News coming in from the Scotsman journalist Paris Gourtsoyannis that Downing street are already rehearsing a Genereral Election where the focus will be on the destruction of Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP using similar tactics as they used against Scotland previously depicting Nicola Sturgeon as the thief of Englands democracy and manipulator of Jeremy Corbyn

    234. ahundredthidiot says:

      pacman @10:54

      you said ‘they’ not once, but twice – who are they?

      shurely shir, you mean ‘us’ – or are you just another nobber found out?

    235. Doug says:

      @Dr Jim 10:57pm

      Sounds like the tories are concentrating solely on England but using Scotland as the bad guys. Thus, in doing so, it also means the tories have given up on saving their seats in Scotland.

      If so, the difference between Scotland and England will be exacerbated, with anti-Scottish feeling rising considerably in England.

    236. PacMan says:

      Liz g says: 1 October, 2019 at 10:30 pm

      Pac Man @ 8.51
      I agree, we need to be pointing out the flaws in the Union a lot more this time!
      While it’s all very fine to point out a pensioner that what they have is not at risk, ( and let’s face it a lot don’t believe us) reminding them that they risk the Tories coming after the little they do have ( TV license ect ) if we stay is also fair comment.

      Another thing I find quite useful to make them think,is pointing out that all the good jobs are kept in London.
      That doesn’t just keep all the high paying taxes there..
      A lot of pensioners have, or know someone who has, a Kid who has left for London. That’s an emotional unfairness of life in the Union that’s hard to argue against.
      To say that we want future Scottish kids to be able to stay here and still earn good money is,I think, an uncontroversial conversation!!

      Agreed. Pensioners whose sons and daughter have to move south of the Border or abroad don’t get to see them as well as their offspring. Why should that happen?

      There is no doubt that the No campaign was manipulative in the 2014 campaign and will be even more in a future one but we need to turn that around and point out some home truths that some the cornerstones of the Union just doesn’t need to happen and in fact has been beggaring Scots for decades.

      What I have been saying is all well and good but reality is that all the media is biased against independence and constant, relentless propaganda, misinformation and misrepresentation of facts is going to make the strategy I mentioned hard to succeed. It really is going to have to take creative and innovative methods to circumvent them if there is any change for it to work.

    237. ahundredthidiot says:

      Terry Callachan @9:47

      You truly are an idiot. That anyone on this site takes you in the slightest bit seriously flabbers my gastor.

      This will be my final riposte as far as you are concerned.

    238. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 22:16,

      My last “gotcha” was to use the entirely innocent phrase “… heads above the p.a.r.a.p.e.t”.

      It’s a totally idiot implementation that anyway can be bypassed, as this example will show if it actually appears. =grin=

    239. PacMan says:

      ahundredthidiot says:1 October, 2019 at 10:59 pm

      pacman @10:54

      you said ‘they’ not once, but twice – who are they?

      shurely shir, you mean ‘us’ – or are you just another nobber found out?

      If you are more interested in microscopically analysing my grammar rather than the logic of what I am saying then let your paranoia run riot?

      BTW, have you actually fully read what I’ve said or just stopped halfway through and jumped on your high horse with your mighty conclusions so you can let the world know how smart you are?

    240. ahundredthidiot says:

      pacman @11:07

      yes to all of the above.

      what time did your shift start?

    241. PacMan says:

      Also, I won’t be replying to any more of these comments that think think I am a ‘nobber’, Brigade 77 or some other tractor so don’t bother wasting your time in posting anything.

    242. ahundredthidiot says:

      pacman and very possibly Terry Callachan – take a good whiff of the air fellas – that’s what defeat starts to smell like.

      Scotland will be independent. I suggest you get out of our way.

    243. Doug says:

      Johnson’s new “offer” to EU is more like Germany/Austria’s demands to Serbia after the Sarajevo assassination in 1914.

      Made to fail.

    244. ahundredthidiot says:

      Doug@11:14

      Exactly – which is why I fear for our cousins in Ireland.

    245. Effijy says:

      Boris said on the news bulletin that as a sovereign nation
      We have the right to withdraw from the European Union.

      Equally Scotland the sovereign nation has the right to
      Withdraw from this corrupt UK Union.

    246. Liz g says:

      Pac Man @ 11.04
      You’ve got that right Pac Man,but I think that we can!
      The innovation in 2014 was stunning.
      All we need to do is get it across to the Yes Campaigners is that it’s Ok,and probably essential to tell it like it is.
      EG..
      Another thing that I find quite useful is to take the opportunity to proclaim in a conversation that’s not any where Indy related That the Daily Record has a reading age of 9….
      While, I do actually believe this.
      I never need to explain it.
      The result is that people no longer admit to reading the thing and are very resistant to taking on board it’s message.
      It might make them feel foolish for a wee while,but it surely makes them think!!

    247. Ken500 says:

      Oil sector taxed at 30% since Jan 2016. The Tories ruined it with too high taxes when the price had fallen. In 2010 ConDems raised tax 11% (£2Billion). The price was $120 a barrel. The tax was 70%. It put it up to 80%. The Oil companies stopped drilling bore holes. They could not break even.

      When the prices started to fall. The Tories Cameron/Osbourne did not take down the tax quick enough. 120,000 lost their jobs. Scotland could have had full employment. (120,000 unemployed). When the price had fallen. 75% it was still too highly taxed. (50%). If Scotland did not produce. It would have to import. Oil. Fracked US Gas is imported into Grangemouth.

      Scotland runs on renewables. The best place in the world geographically for renewables. The Isle of Lewis recorded the fastest wind time in the world.,The Scottish Gov wind turbine policies are paying off. Some gigantic wind farms. Cleaner, cheaper and greener. Totally practical. Wave technology. Oil & Gas technology skills are transferrable to renewables. CCS are feasible in the NS. The EU counties are developing the technology. Scotland is being left behind by Westminster lack of development and funding. Broken CCS promises. Longannet in Fife and gas at Peterhead.

      There are large decommissioning projects going on. Tax free. Dundee. Deep harbour. Shell.

      The Scottish tax revenues were raised £3Billion from renewables. From £60Billion to £63Billion. Scotland is 25% in surplus in fuel and energy. Scotland could gain £8Billion a year from fuel and energy. Scotland has a bright future in renewables.Even more could be established. Scotland should pay less for therm/ unit for parity. It would if Independent.

      Fishing, farming, oil & Gas industry all mismanaged by Westminster unionists. They have not got a clue. A bunch of ignorant, arrogant clowns.

    248. ahundredthidiot says:

      Liz G @11:20

      I know a man (who knows a man) and well before indyref1 (so, no need for us to get too paranoid) their pitch (Daily Record), grammatically speaking, was agreed to be at around the 12 year old mark. Short, punchy sentences with paragraphs no longer than what before, would’ve been considered sentences, were the order of the day – much to the annoyance of those tasked with writing said articles.

      The dumbing down of society – we reap the seeds we sow.

    249. Liz g says:

      Ahundrithidiot @ 11.16
      Which is why we in Scotland should get as far away as we can for any obligation to the Good Friday Agreement…
      In or out of the EU Scotland cannot act to protect it and should have nae part in the wrecking of it!

    250. Heart of Galloway says:

      Joanna Cherry, Jo Maugham and Dale Vince have lodged a new action at the Court of Session which if successful on Friday could potentially see BoJo the.Cliown put behind bars.

      That happy eventuality could come to pass if Johnson fails to comply with the Benn Act compelling him to seek a three month Brexit extension should he fail to get a deal,

      Key section: “To impose such other conditions and other penalties including fine and imprisonment, where consistent with the European Union (Withdrawal) no.2 Act 2019 as to the court shall in all the circumstances seem proper and appropriate in the event of the order not being implemented.”

      The U.K. Gov has been given 48 hours to respond.

      The petition is linked to, but separate from, the nobile officium action at the CoS, which will be heard next week.

      As Meg@10.17 correctly points out, the Scottish broadcast media in particular are protecting this cheating, lying, self-entitled posh boy charlatan.

      Every day the fuse on several powder kegs is getting shorter. Anyone of a nervous disposition may have to head for the hills.

    251. Dr Jim says:

      I cannot locate where Scotlands office of the exchequer is, you know the place where all our taxes go and where Scotland borrows all this money from that creates this deficit that all the British people say Scotland has

      I’ve looked on street maps and the Scotguv website but Scotland doesn’t seem to have one of these things

      I don’t think Scotland is borrowing any money you know I think the English Exchequer are borrowing money and telling folk they’re giving it to us when they’re not, and the thing is why would they do that when we don’t vote for their political parties, we don’t like who they vote for and we keep telling them we don’t want anything to do with their politics at all and yet they still demand nay threaten us with retribution if we dare speak words of dissent

      There must be something more to this, let me think, Hmmm?

    252. Liz g says:

      Ahundrithidiot @ 11.30
      Exactly…. But like I said..
      It doesn’t need to be part of a particular conversation…
      Just throw it in there…
      Another Yesser arguing that it’s 12 not 9 would be more than helpful though!!

    253. ahundredthidiot says:

      Liz G @11:33

      I agree completely

    254. Liz g says:

      Ahundredthidiot @ 11.40
      Glad to hear it…
      I also think that we should be pointing out that.
      If we are “not the member state” like they ALL keep bloody well telling us we’re not.
      Then no part of the “Bill” for leaving the EU is Scotland’s.. Aye…?

    255. Liz g says:

      Ahundrethidiot @ 11.40
      Not to mention that Scotland needs people..
      So we’re now in the position that all three stumbling blocks between Westminster and the EU that could wreck our economy don’t NEED to exist for Scotland.
      We have nae obligation tae the Good Friday Agreement!
      We owe the EU not a penny!
      We need People!
      All we have to do… Is dump the 300 year old trade Treaty and Scotland can jettison the Westminster issues and move on..

    256. Cubby says:

      BDTT@10.03am

      Hi Brian, Sorry to hear that I never got to read your comments that you tried to post. Not sure I would have enjoyed reading them. Also as I said upstream I won’t be visiting the Wings stall on Saturday so if the crowd is anywhere near the 250k planned for Sat you will have some task trying to find me whilst attending to the stall. You may be very busy at the stall but it won’t include me. I like to enjoy the marches and I have no desire to spend the day with people who will give me grief. Looking forward to hearing Joanna Cherry as it will be a nice contrast to all the negativity you get on Wings these days above and BTL.

      You are entitled to defend your pal Terry if you so choose but I do not need to accept his views either. After reading his posts and your backing I have no problem stating that I was wrong to call him a Britnat in the past. Unlike some I do not have a problem admitting when I am wrong. Everything else I maintain my opinion. He is an independence supporter with views that I find unacceptable. In many ways that is worse. I note that both you and Terry have never said I was wrong about his views just that I am stirring by calling them out.

      Too often on Wings posters cannot accept criticism of their views or opinions and they resort to personal abuse. I doubt I will ever visit Wings stall again and I have doubts about continuing to post on Wings with the never ending negativity and Dr Doom concern trolls that are dominating. Some may be shouting hurrah.

    257. ahundredthidiot says:

      Liz G @11:52

      Not quite, I think we are very much a part of the Bill for the ‘vote’ that resulted in the ‘UK’ leaving the EU, however, I am more or less aligned with Breeks on this. I see the ‘vote’consisting of two parts, because;

      There is two parts to the UK – Scotland & England. In England Parliament is sovereign, but they did go and give the good folks a referendum, so tough titty with that. In Scotland, the people are sovereign – and we voted stay – so stay we should. Ergo, end of the UK as a political entity.

    258. @Fireproofjim 8.54 RE Scotland not getting credit for oil, gas, whiskey, electricty and other exports – instead these exports being credited to London and the SE in UK statistics

      I have posted a random copy of interesting FoI questions and answers on ‘OFF TOPIC” .

      It is quite extraordinary the lengths the UK Gov goes to find obscure reasons not to credit Scotland with exports but to allocate the to London or not at all

      It would be wonderful if Wings would sponsor a PhD on this – IE

      “What are Scotland’s real import and export statistics? and how are these misrepresented in UK official statistics and what reaons are given by the UK Government for doing this?”

    259. Liz g says:

      Ahundrithidiot @ 12 .13
      Why do you think that an entity that’s not a member should pay any part of the Bill?

    260. Liz g says:

      Ahundrithidiot @ 12.13
      Please remember that … At no point did any Westminster or Holyrood representatives from Scotland take part in the negotiation of that Bill..
      How could we be sure that obligation met the terms and conditions of the Treaty of Union??

    261. Liz g says:

      Me @ 12.27
      It’s not as if the 2014 section 30 order didn’t signal there was a doubt that the Partner Nation may not be completely on board with the ” Constitutional Arrangements” of the Union.
      The EU cannot pretend that the section 30 was not a thing!!

    262. Breeks says:

      3 sad things.

      First Peter Bell’s open letter to Nicola.

      https://peterabell.scot/2019/10/01/an-open-letter-to-first-minister-nicola-sturgeon-msp/#comments

      Read it for yourselves. It hits the mark, but why I say it’s sad is because it gave me one of those moments of clear lucidity… How on earth can Scotland be so close to the seismic rupture of Brexit and all the colonial subjugation that entails, yet a prominent and articulate pro Independence lieutenant (who’s not alone), has to write an open letter to Scotland’s First Minister pleading for her to explain the profound and alarming enigma she has cultivated for over three years. What the actual fk? How and why have we don’t this to ourselves??? Have we been asleep or drugged???

      The second sadness is we are now in October, perhaps now in the last month in our European Citizenship, and when school children in the years and decades ahead study the immense catastrophe of Brexit, they will perhaps look back for Scotland’s part in the Brexit Narrative, and find virtually nothing. A vote against it yes, by the people, a couple of legal footnotes about Joanna Cherry’s legal niceties, but no meaningful disruption to the Brexit bandwagon. The Irish will celebrate their Backstop, and powerful camaraderie with their allies in Europe, but Scotland will be left in desolate contemplation trying to reconcile its bleak and supine acquiescence to “UK” oppression which we could have walked away from.

      The third sad thing is the uneasy feeling I have in my bones that we are through the Boris Johnson looking glass now, and every attack or criticism of Johnson just makes him stronger. The English Brexiteers have their champion, a rogue and upstart, but a hellraiser. The Brexiteers are not blind to Johnson’s dishonesty, but they are factionalised in their thinking, a bit like radicalised militia who become blind to their own sides nastiness and dishonour. They have a tainted perspective. They will forgive their own war crimes.

      The Brexiteers do not want a leader to behave. The want another Edward 1 Longshanks, who will ride roughshod over every Law, convention, and protocol that gets in his way. If the SNP fails to extricate Scotland from this mess, that’s the kind of regime Scotland will be dealing with, and asking them to cooperate with our IndyRef. If that doesn’t make your heart weep, then you’re not paying attention.

      If it is our ‘policy’ that the UK needs a General Election, then that General Election must become our Independence, not merely a referendum or promise of one; the actual delivery and realisation of Scottish Independence, because the same General Election will be a coronation for Johnson ahead of a new and dangerous English radicalism.

      I hope Nicola Sturgeon writes a reply to Peter Bell, but I bet she doesn’t. I hope she reads his letter, but I bet she doesn’t.

      I grow impatient with Joanna Cherry, not for her prowess and ability, which lift my spirits beyond measure, but her standing off from the “big one”, the full on and outright defence of Scotland’s inalienable Constitutional Sovereignty from this catastrophic Brexit misadventure. Enough hors d’oeuvres Joanna, it’s time for the main course. We are running out of time.

    263. Kangaroo says:

      Breeks @2:41am

      Don’t you worry, its very close to “put your laces through it” time. When that happens you can rest assured there will be NO Fergie time.

    264. Ken500 says:

      There will be no Brexit. Independence is coming. If people vote for it. The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. Demographic changes.

      One campaign at a time or both could be lost. The electorate can be so fickle. Put the resources where they are needed. Prioritise the best form of management in life.

      The SNP are carrying out their mandate to the letter, as usual. To stay in the EU and stop Brexit (86%). Another IndyRef and rising (52%). Demographics changing. Time never rubs out it is infinitive.

      Scotland is going it’s own way in any case. The Scottish Gov mitigating the Westminster imbecile policies. Standing up for Scotland.

      The Tories will be gone soon, especially in Scotland. The unionists have had their day in Scotland. The unionists illegally changed the voting system to give them advantage. Without D’Hond’t, STV Scotland would be Independent now. It was introduced not for consensus but for prevention. To hold Scotland back. Campaign to change the voting system in Scotland. A complete fallacy. The 3rd loser wins. They can’t be get rid.

      The Tory are losing. Going down. How low can they go. There will be no Salmond unionist show trial. The ‘charges’ will be dropped. An apology given and massive compensation paid. A few civil servants will resign. Hopefully without massive pension rights. The unionists will suffer. Just as they make other people suffer To line their own pockets with greed. They are despicable. Ignorant and arrogant beyond belief. Alex Salmond will win again. One of the greatest Stateperson Scotland has ever had.

      The Police waste time and money on ‘charges’ which can never come to Court. Keeping people in cells overnight. The prisons are full with people on the ‘spectrum’ who should not be there with proper support. People addicted to drink/drugs who should be receiving proper total abstinence drug/drink rehab care. Not put on methadone for years. More addictive and worse than heroin.

      All the drug deaths in Scotland are of people on methadone taking other substances. Proper total abstinence care is cheaper than prison. Prison £40,000 a year. Crime and drink/drugs are linked. Drink in the wit’s oot. The State should not be acting as a dealer killing people but provide proper care for those who need it. Including councils and Health Boards.

      People or insurance have to provide the funds, themselves. People who can afford it can pay. Poorer people go by the wayside and suffer more. Instead of leading better lives. MUP is saving people’s lives. Alcohol related deaths down 25%, in a year. It took five years to implement but is so worth it. NA and AA help people with addiction problems, They can be the first point of call for rehabilitation. Get help for those suffering. Including families and friends.

    265. manandboy says:

      The essence of North Korea, is that the population’s view of itself is completely at odds with the view the rest of the world has.
      This is equally true of England, which is now saturated with lies, not only about itself & Brexit, but also about Europe, and the rest of the world.
      The net effect is also true. Isolationism – of both North Korea and England.

      From theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/29/europe-isnt-enemy-undermining-britain-tories-nasty-party

      “The Tory party has elected the most callous, ruthless, mendacious and superficial politician in living memory as its leader and thereby prime minister. According to the polls this deeply nasty man is easily the most popular politician in the country.”

      “For years now a decisive segment of the British establishment and electorate has been poisoning itself with lies, delusions and the demonisation of everyone with a different opinion about membership of the EU. These people want to throw themselves off a cliff and take their country with them. It is a deeply painful process to follow, especially for those who know that a different Britain is possible. Alas, the EU cannot save a country that does not want to save itself.”

      Ps. It’s a pity that so many in the UK and the EU think of the United Kingdom as either ‘a country’, or worse, ‘the country’.

    266. manandboy says:

      What does it really mean when we describe Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson PM as mendacious? It means that he is someone who lies habitually, knowingly, and deliberately or intentionally.

      Yet every day and every hour, the UK broadcast TV, Radio & Print/Online Press, tell us that what PMJohnson says must be believed and followed. ‘Get behind the Liar’, they all cry. And so many do.

      But then the same is true of Kim Jong-un of North Korea.

      Brexit is not the right road for Scotland or for the rest of the UK.

    267. RM says:

      Hello Ken 500, aye your right in everything you say, I’ve first hand knowledge of what drugs can do, the whole systems wrong plenty of good people trying to help their hands are tied, methadone just doesn’t work, people who are giving it start taking other things along with it and they start abusing the whole system it ends up an ever ending spiral, but your right the SNP government are trying their best trying to help the whole population free prescriptions, bus travel national health, what a future Scotland could have if we had independence one of the best caring modern nations on this earth.

    268. Cubby says:

      James Cleverly, black Conservative party leader defends his pal Sir Desmond Swayne Tory MP saying that there was nothing wrong with blacking up his face, would do it again other than getting the colour off was difficult. Cleverly says it’s not something he would do himself.

      People defending their friends unacceptable views seems to be in vogue these days.

    269. manandboy says:

      From an article by Aditya Chakrabortty in today’s Guardian online. http://archive.fo/MbU95

      “This is today’s Tory party: patriots who want to bulldoze their national institutions, self-declared liberals who hate the liberal order, an entire government crying about being bullied. That, you might say, is what happens when you shove out 21 of your MPs and lose control of parliament.
      But it is also the result of trafficking in the language of betrayal, surrender, collusion. This is rhetoric that has been workshopped in No 10, ventriloquised by Johnson, then parroted by every Tory who wants to get ahead.”

      Tories like Jackson Carlaw MSP and the new leader of the Conservative and Unionist Party up here in the ‘Territory’ of Scotland, where, incidentally, the voting system, albeit ‘very antiquated’, is totally secure, and above reproach.

    270. Robert Louis says:

      When a pig-ignorant little sh*t of a ‘scottishy’ Tory is shooting his mouth off, to cheers from his English masters, about putting Edinburgh castle back under ‘UK’ control, what he really means is putting Edinburgh castle back under ENGLISH control.

      The ‘scottishy’ Tories eh? For London’s gold they are bought and sold, such a parcel of rogues in a nation.

      Dancing jigs for their London overlords. ‘Dance jocko, dance’.

      Pathetic wee England servile sh**es, each and every one.

    271. manandboy says:

      Scottish Democracy, defined by Westminster, means that only the Unionist parties are able to have their own dedicated TV channels, their own dedicated Radio network, and their own dedicated, with exclusive access, to the countries’ newspapers.

      But that the security of the voting system cannot be faulted, must be emphasised, according to the SNP.

      Like saying the ball was perfectly round, in a game with a crooked referee.

    272. Ken500 says:

      Lady Chakrabortty is part of the system. Part of the problem. A total hypocrite. Corbyn nae principles. Trident etc. Labour shambles.

      The Tory unionists liars will get defeated in Scotland. Never trust a Tory in Scotland. Liars always get found out. Davidson. Liar Johnston will not last until October.

    273. Cubby says:

      Ken 500 @7.44am

      As it is October you might want to update that last sentence in your post.

    274. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,

      Cubby, you and I dont agree on very much regarding the SNP and also the way forward to Indy.

      However,we do agree that Scotland should be kndependent. That is a common aim. I would prefer you did not give up Wings or indeed visiting the Wings stall. You are a soldier in this army and as such are as entit!ed to your views as any other.

      To express your opinion on a public forum is inevitably set ting yourself up for punishment, but those are the hurdles you must jump in order to contribute

      Criticism can be fierce,and unfair,but you have to face it.

      I have criticised many on here for many reasons but I tel! you in all honesty, I would be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with any of them to achieve our common aim. The freedom. of our country.t

      You know I mean this because I take no prisoners myself.

    275. Jock McDonnell says:

      @PacMan

      Nothing wrong with a doze of realism. Too much happy-clappy positivity makes us look lightweight & lacking gravitas. We did that, it took us so far but we also need to point to unionist failure.

      The future is uncertain, unknown, by definition. The union provides no guarantees. It didn’t prevent Thatcher, Brown’s Boom n Bust, Iraq, Brexit & a whole load of other calamities. You are correct, we will have a choice between 2 futures. The union’s record v examples of Independent countries of Scotland’s size.

    276. Essexexile says:

      Cubby @ 12.04am

      I’ll miss you, like the deserts miss the rain.

    277. Cubby says:

      Andrew Bowie, Scot Britnat just like the pratt from Essex, wasnt he the Maybot’s teaboy, wants Edinburgh castle to be controlled by the English. Perhaps there are some shelves that need stacking in the castle that you can come home to do for your English masters essex.

      The man from Essex the biggest pratt posting on Wings and there is a lot of competition for that accolade

    278. Megmerrilees says:

      Some interesting comments on BbcR4 this morning from Chairman of Cons party being interviewed by Nick- I’ll ask that question again- Robinson. Someone with access to I-player might want to transcribe some of the hypocritical remarks- 8.14 – 8.16

      …. The DUP are the elected representatives of the people of NI and we must listen to those elected representatives … important people believe in gov, if change is not initiated through the ballot box they will get very angry ….

      and other choice phrases which clearly do not apply to Scotland and her elected representatives/people.

    279. Essexexile says:

      Test results.
      Check and check.

    280. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack@8.08am

      Good post Bob. There you are you got me to say it – dam it.

      Won’t be changing my mind about ever visiting Wings stall again. The jury is out re posting on Wings. Depends if the site owner goes back to what he is good at – namely factual and forensic analysis of Britnat lies and hypocrisy and tearing apart Britnat unsourced claims. If he continues with opinion based claims with no evidence being produced to back it up then ……….. Hammers may be Winging its way towards me.

    281. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,

      A reminder to everyone.

      We have forgotten the Revs rules. If you wish to refresh yourselves about them, please go to the “about us”section at the top of the page. He is very clear about what is acceptable and what is not.

      The fact we (and I include myself)have broken nearly every one of them is evident.

      The Rev is not changing the rules. We are.

      His remit is to post discussons points. Ours is to discuss.

    282. Terry callachan says:

      Hurrah

      The hundredth idiot is actually one of the ninety nine, he just hasn’t realised it , yet.

    283. Terry callachan says:

      Essexexile… well said

    284. Ken500 says:

      October has 31 days. The end of October. It will all end in tears. That’s for sure. Halloween. Scares the Tories. May clung on for a bit longer. The dope on a rope might survive a bit longer but will not deliver Brexit. None of them will. It finished Thatcher. The only way the economy improved after Thatcher was greater ties with Europe (EU). It costs nothing but brings benefits. Too good to lose.

      It is quite funny watching the Clown self combust. If it is was not so serious. The Tories are dangerous. A danger to themselves and others. What a bunch.The lies and deceit. The blatant lies and the downright denials. The nerve of it. They stand and tell total lies, knowingly. They know they are lying and know people, know they are lying, but keep on lying. What a complete and utter mess. A complete shambles. Who wants the poison chalice next? The Tories are complete abd utter fools. In it for the money. Fraud and corruption. That is why many join the party. Self interest and greed. So few of them. Useless, To deceive.

      The Tories will cause a world recession. Just like Labour. Imbeciles The illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. All against International Law of equality and fraternity. The Westminster unionists are trying to destroy the economy and the world. Killing, maiming innocent people destroying lives. People will not put up with it.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. For a better world.

    285. Cubby says:

      Note to BDTT there is your pal Terry Callachan stirring it. Want to criticise him.

      Hey Terry thought you said bye bye. Couldn’t resist could you.

    286. galamcennalath says:

      From the Guardian …. “Mujtaba Rahman, a former European commission official who provides well-regarded Brexit analysis for the Eurasia consultancy, sent out a briefing revising down his assessment of the chances of the UK and the EU agreeing a deal to 10%”

      So, very little chance of a deal, just 10%.

      JP Morgan have put the chances of an extension to 85%.

      Arithmetic agreement there.

      And yet Johnson STILL talks of a ‘no-deal’ Hallowe’en Brexit.

      Is he delusional, or mysteriously confident?

    287. Terry callachan says:

      Well done SNP

      Gaining control of money from Scottish crown estates marine assets that previously went to Westminster
      Under SNP control the amount of money generated from this asset is nearly four times as much as when Westminster controlled it

      And well done the SNP again for giving it all to coastal towns to spend

      https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2019/10/01/scotlands-coastal-communities-to-receive-100-of-revenue-generated-from-the-crown-estates-marine-assets/

    288. Terry callachan says:

      Hi cubby

      Thought you’d gone ?

    289. galamcennalath says:

      I see a problem with Johnson’s latest offering.

      It requires considerable compromise for the EU. If the EU openly agree to compromise than it would be difficult to back pedal when circumstances in the UK change. And changes are inevitable – deal won’t pass WM, a GE, a more powerful Tory government, national unity government, a hung parliament – too many uncertainties.

      The EU can’t afford to change direction when the UK is so politically unstable.

      Even if the UK leaves with ‘no-deal’, immediately talks have to begin again to sort out the mess. Red lines now, will begin again as red lines then.

    290. Terry callachan says:

      Poetry is beautiful

    291. Cubby says:

      Callachan@9.38pm

      I always thought you had a problem reading. Thanks for proving it.

      Stirring it again Terry. You may not be a Britnat like your pal from Essex but you are certainly both pratts. So tell me Terry does the SNP know you hold blood and soil nationalism views. Is that acceptable in the SNP these days. Do you attend branch meetings wearing your white pointy hat or do you keep it hidden in the loft.

      You should have stuck to your bye bye promise.

    292. Capella says:

      Hundreds of thousands of Scots voters missing from the electoral register:

      http://archive.fo/i8W1G

    293. Ken500 says:

      Netanyahu is on the way out. Facing corruption charges. The Israeli political system in bits. The pits. Corrupt liars always get found out. People are sick of it,

      Sectarian Football clubs £millions in debt. Crime not pay or play fair. People are sick of it. No wonder the terraces are empty.

      Rugby players get injured. It is a dangerous game.

      The safest place for women on the planet are mixed changing rooms and prison (unfortunately many should not be there).

      The most unsafe place for women is their own space. Their own home. Attacks from family and ‘friends’. Statistically.

      4 time men than women get attacked, murdered, violently. The norm is the majority of attackers are men. It is a gender issue. So is crime in general.

      People always do not conform to certain gender or norms. Genes and DNA. Women can be born without a womb. That does not make them men. Others can conceive for them. A surrogate. A small amount of people want to self ID, as a right. That is absolutely not a problem. If handled sympathetically with empathy. Most would not hurt a fly. Any incident gets deal with like any other. A minute proportion. Often they can become distressed, self harm or commit suicide. Just for not conforming to the norm. That is not right.

    294. Golfnut says:

      @ galamcennalath.

      That will be music to Johnson’s ears, since the desired outcome is no deal.

      The latest from the Palace is that if Johnson fails to ask for an extension the Queen will sack him. The palace lackeys are trying to put distance between Boris and maj before the sh#t hits the fan.
      Meanwhile Nicola and her team get on with the job of cutting the head of the snake.

    295. Cubby says:

      Tory party Conference in Manchester

      Alun Cairns MP Wales Secretary of State making a speech where he goes through a long list of where Wales is better than England – best sportsmen, best entrepreneurs, best musicians, best traditions and culture etc etc . He says this – “it is this friendly rivalry that makes our union so very special.”

      A very small smattering of applause and the camera turns to the audience and the look on some of the faces was priceless. You could just see them thinking I didn’t come to the English Tory conference to be told how much better the Welsh are than the English. English nationalism is very much on the rise and on display in Manchester.

      Get back in your box Taffey was the look of disdain in the audience.

    296. galamcennalath says:

      Golfnut says:

      the desired outcome is no deal

      That certainly seems to be what Johnson has been working towards all along.

      This latest ‘offer’ is probably only really intended for Tory faithful and Brexiteers as part of a blame Johnny Foreigner plan.

      “The latest British proposal on Brexit, as reported by media, is “fundamentally flawed” and “won’t fly”, European Union diplomats and officials said, adding that another delay to Britain’s departure is likely if is London’s final offer for a deal.”

      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-reaction/if-reported-uk-brexit-proposal-is-final-offer-it-wont-fly-eu-sources-idUSKBN1WH0WE

      What I really don’t get is Johnson confidently still talking about a Hallowe’en ‘no-deal’ exit.

      The Benn Act is supposed to force an extension. Clearly the EU expect an extension.

      I suppose it could still be part of the blame the EU plan – firstly for not accepting a perfectly reasonable offer (rolls eyes), and then for forcing an extension. Johnson goes into the inevitable election on a ticket of no-deal because ‘we just can’t do business with that untrustworthy EU’. He hopes for a landslide and with FPTP he might get it.

    297. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Cubby.

      I’m gonna try another comment.

      You are making an assumption that doesn’t stand up. I have never met T. Callachan. I know OF him from WOS and, latterly, a work colleague, who knows him well.

      I’ll try a couple of links in a follow-up comment.

    298. Iain mhor says:

      I tried a new tack recently and thought I’d find out more on English devolution and Parliament (an idea which has hovered occasionally around 40% support curiously) Part of the reason, was to shine a light into the deeper recesses of the “Westminster mind”, rather than specifically an English one. The Westminster mind is the Unionist mind, the English in general we know, may be less wedded to the Union ideal. Reading various articles also helped inform the current policies being implemented.

      It’s a convoluted topic, however a generalisation, is that English devolution would be complicated, require a degree of federalism and (crucially) – critically weaken Westminster control and its creaking institutions. The Westminster choice falls to English devo, creeping federalism, further decentralisation, or – double down on the union and emasculate the current devo settlements.

      We know the choice which is being made – Double Down. We have Boris “Minister of the Union”, the Secretary of State against Scotland, the new Union civil service in Edinburgh and “Taking back control” – So far, so depressingly telegraphed. The silver lining (?) Is that such a scenario is also predicted to not go well constitutionally. The currently devolved parliaments are not going to rollover (though they will be pitted ultimately against one another)

      The Union is gearing up for a scorched earth battle. Devo wasn’t working for them, English calls for Devo was on the rise, all threaten Westminster’s “”Sovereign Power”.
      Brexit was their opening salvo and we’ll have our clash soon enough – so it’s probably best to stay resolved. Butting our heads at one another is not necessarily a terrible thing, it’s just a form of ‘shield biting’ – the snarling dugs will eventually see the rabbit…

      A couple of articles.

      Harvard Society – Probably the most well linked and detailed (though long) analysis of English Devo & constitutional issues.

      http://bit.ly/2olDKq0

      Holyrood magazine. A Scottish ‘unionist & federalists’ vision of a new Constitution (summary – Decentralise Holyrood, all devo parliaments should be an administrative arm of central government)

      http://bit.ly/2ofATz4

    299. Iain mhor says:

      Link is Hansard Society – not Harvard – deary me.

    300. Terry callachan says:

      Bye cubby bye thehundredthidiot

    301. Golfnut says:

      @ galamcennalath.

      Don’t forget the ‘ Nob Off ‘ ( seems an appropriate abbreviation somehow) to be heard by the COS, JC has I believe also asked the court whether Johnson can be actually be jailed. The COS was quite explicit though, the Crown and Parliament are not above the law, but there is a wee bit to go before Parliament is brought to heel and we have a level playing field for indyref.

    302. Terry callachan says:

      WOW well done the Scottish NHS
      Well done all the nurses doctors surgeons , assistants , technicians , drivers, cleaners , kitchen staff and the many many other occupations that run behind the scenes making our NHS Scotland one of the best healthcare facilities on this earth.

      Well done the SNP for allocating more money to the NHS and to the provision of medicines by prescription for free we know this would definately not have been done by Labour Tory or Lib Dem party’s.

      https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2019/10/01/nhs-scotland-hovers-around-near-perfect-efficiency-as-cancelled-operations-hold-at-only-2/

    303. Terry callachan says:

      A message to those who support Boris Johnston not that there will be any commenting on this website but there will be some who read it

      Look at how good the Scottish NHS is doing

      https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2019/10/01/dear-boris-nhs-scotland-ae-services-treat-more-than-90-within-target-despite-17-increase-in-demand-and-15-more-than-nhs-england-can/

    304. Clapper57 says:

      Watch out for the ambition of one Michelle Ballantyne.

      I mentioned in a previous thread, when the Tory leadership fight was going on, that possibly she would make a move to put her name in the hat to be new Scottish Tory leader….today we learn she has NOT ruled out doing that.

      Now we see she was chairing a session with Alister Jack,Alun Cairns and NI secretary in Manchester Tory conference …..

      This is the same Michelle who , on BBC Debate night, stated Bojo NOT INTERESTED IN SCOTLAND….then in the famous Tory U turn tradition she hypocritically endorsed him in Tory leadership….planting herself on what was perceived to be the winning team….she and many knew Ruth D would never , based on past history between her and Bojo, serve under him…his sacking of Mundell and her support for other candidates as opposed to him sealed Ruth’s fate and made her position untenable..so it was clearly inevitable that Ruth would stand down….also not forgetting Ruth knew her party would probably now be (f)ducked in Scotland…thanks to team Bojo.

      So Michelle , another opportunist, knew that for her to be in with a chance she MUST support Bojo….we the public are supposed to ignore and consign to the realms of amnesia the negative and disparaging comments she, Michelle, made on Debate night about Bojo.

      Is this Michelle being introduced via the Tory conference,courtesy of Alister Jack, as the new warrior queen to replace Ruth ?….Because we all know how obliging she will be to Bojo’s Union jackerry flag invasion strategy he intends to impose upon Scotland…..considering how far to the right the Tories are now travelling Michelle would be the PERFECT selection as new leader….now she will definitely stay on message…..a bit like Ruth really …Tory party first but with added Bojo allegiance…a combination that ensures Scotland’s place in UKOK continues to remain secondary to the ambitions and prominence of England in a post Brexit UKOK.

      I may be wrong…but she seems such the perfect choice…devoid of empathy, compassion, ruthless (pun intended) and a devout Brexiteer that she seems the obvious choice to replace Ruth….the kind of leader Tory voters now seem to want and need in Tory Brexit La La land….

    305. robertknight says:

      “Twitter exec moonlights as UK psy-ops warrior, but mainstream media declare ‘nothing to see here, move along’”

      https://www.rt.com/op-ed/470020-twitter-psyops-british-officer-media/

    306. Sarah says:

      O/T The petition to have international observers scrutinising the next Scottish independence is not going viral. Signatures 10,300 at the moment.

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269150

      Could the Wings stall on Saturday encourage all visitors to sign? And a message be sent to the National Yes hub, and all the other high-profile groups?

      My SNP branch put it on our FB but didn’t get much response. I think it is important – not that current UK Gov would agree to request such observers – far too transparent, democratic and sensible for them.

    307. Dr Jim says:

      Boris Johnson does *Stand up* in a brand new and hilarious Evita style show at the Tory party conference
      Like a history professor buffooning his way through every lesson where no child remembers anything he said because they were too busy laughing at the bufoonery

      Oh what a circus oh what a show, but without the music as Boris Johnson engages the audience with his brand of laughter and mirth on an afternoon to remember and the crowd go home delighted

      Somebody said he was a politician? That can’t be right

    308. gus1940 says:

      According to Boris Nuclear Fusion is just round the corner and will solve all our energy problems.

      It was just round the corner when I left school and it was called Project ZETA.

      N.B. I left school in 1958 yes 1958.

    309. Sarah says:

      Whoops. 12.25 comment. Insert “referendum/election campaign” after “independence”.

    310. dadsarmy says:

      What would be a good article for the Rev next is one in reply to my challenge which is better detailed here.

      With the advantage of full hindsight, at any time over the last 3 years since the EU Ref, specify the timetable to do the following, with illustrative dates:

      1). request a Section 30 Order, formally rather than just say “let’s talk”
      2). define what “formally” means, does it mean a Holyrood Motion to request one, or what?
      3). specify the fastest a referendum could be held after its date is announced
      4). specify what date the process would need to be started in Holyrood
      5). specify a date for Indy Ref 2
      6). relate this whole lot to whether it’s even known for sure that Brexit is going to happen, like, ever.

      Well? Any takers?

    311. dadsarmy says:

      Basically speaking, instead of just saying “Sturgeon gonna oughta shoulda done SOMETHING”, what and when would YOU have done in her shoes, in detail and related to other events and possible changes in UK Gov policy if an Indy Ref had been called?

    312. mr thms says:

      The British High Commissioner to New Zealand Laura Clarke ahead of the 250th anniversary of Captain James Cook and the shop Endeavor’s arrival has expressed regret over the killing of M?ori people by the ship’s crew.

      This bit caught my attention..

      https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-02/uk-acknowledges-pain-over-killings-in-1769-of-maori-in-new-zealand/

      “And here on behalf of the four countries of the United Kingdom, on behalf of the people of those four countries … I acknowledge the pain of those first encounters.”

    313. Dr Jim says:

      That’s my first letter in from Jo Swinson begging the people of East Dunbartonshire to vote in another Lib Dem for the constituency, but nowhere in her letter does she say the candidate will be her because we and she knows she’s looking at being wiped out in East Dunbartonshire

      Swinson goes on in her letter about not voting Tory or Labour because that’ll let the SNP in and they’re terribly bad as she points out several times in her A4 sheet of big fibs, she even provides a wee colourful graph to make it more exciting

      The biggest fib however is when she talks about going around talking to people in *our* area, because she doesn’t, and she also doesn’t live in *our* area she lives in Chippenham in England and only comes to Scotland for photo ops and videos, she has an office staffer forward any correspondence to the House of Commons, nobody can actually get an appointment to see her because she’s not there and hasn’t been for around four years but she does hope that the old biddies and uninformed don’t know that

      The only difference between Jo Swinson and Boris Johnson is she’s a wummin, other than that they’re both the same person, Allmouth and Toothfloss, hey! they could be a double act

    314. Terry callachan says:

      mr thms…2.15pm

      That’s nice the British high commissioner to New Zealand Laura Clarke apologising to New Zealand for killing maoris .

      Will they be sending someone to Scotland to apologise for killing Scottish people during the many invasions of Scotland ?

      Is Laura Clarke the daughter of ken Clarke ?

    315. Dr Jim says:

      @dadsarmy 2:05pm

      Michael Russell did all of those things weeks ago the media and others chose to ignore it

      I repeated what Mr Russell said a few days ago and folk chose to ignore it

      Every question you have asked was laid before a Holyrood comittee and agreed to even by the Tories who moaned but they know it’s coming and accepted it, their main objection was wording of the question and electoral commission scrutiny and Mike Russell refused to change the question because it was a tried and tested question and has in fact been asked 56 times since 2014 in various polls so the electoral commission interference is dead

      6 months is the time involved and the earliest mooted time was between April 2020 until September 2020

      Both Adam Tomkins and Murdo Fraser weren’t happy but agreed

      There’s way too much misinformation about all of this stuff and also deliberate concealment to assist everybody’s own happy agendas of sewing the seads of anger and frustration for folks own gain
      The people who say it isn’t going to happen are the people who don’t want it to happen so they’re in the business of making folk angry

    316. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      Nicola did request section 30 discussions. To read anything else into that such that it was on!y an expresxion of inte rest is semantics. Al! PM s to date have refused to engage.

      Thzt should have been the cue for legal action. It is a bluder pure and simple.

      Wesminster are not goinv to sanction a section 30 order zny year soom especially if Johnson survjves. We all know this.

      We are pinning our hopes on plan B whatever that is.
      Therd may not dven be a plan B.

      Blind faith is admirable in some things but not in others.

      A nation awaits indications of how it can escape the clutches of Westminster, but as yet is lacking information.

      I suppose the turning point for me will be Nicolas conference speech. Clear indicaions will ignite my belief,whilst muddying the waters again will probably switch me off for some time to come.

    317. Terry callachan says:

      Maybe you have read this before
      It’s worth a read, even for a second time
      Just to remind yourself of the dodgy goings on in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum

      Here , the report from Dunoon SNP supporters
      Have a stress ball handy to release your anger as you read

      https://talkingupscotlandtwo.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/howtheref-3.pdf

    318. Bob Mack says:

      @Dr Jim,

      We want it to happen al! right. The problem is that lack of information leads to fear and anxiety. You see it on these threads. It manifexts itself in paranoia and attribution bias, resulting in angry exchanges and accusations o f a par aoid nature.

      That wouldnt happen if we had a clear path go a goal

    319. callmedave says:

      Bold and brash Boris on the TV but whistling in the wind hoping to con the EU into a compromise. Looks strong but really he’s balancing on a knife edge with only a few days to go.

      The ‘precious’, a union, a millstone round Scotland’s neck carried by the SNP to the threshold of Mordor.

      Shurley the ‘Act of Union’ needs to be cast into the fire to set us free. Where’s the folk like Frodo & Sam able to complete this last act once ‘Brexit’ is seen to be a dead horse.

      The UK Markets slow decline over the last three days all based on the financier’s false hope for a deal, drop sharply today they know a thing or two because they seen a thing or two.

      I’m making a lot of soup today trying to avoid the mad Tory conference but pinning hopes with those doing the day job to sharpen their swords and pitchforks very soon. 🙁

    320. Doug says:

      Hopefully the EU will now tell Johnson and Westminster to piss off permanently.

    321. mr thms says:

      Terry callachan @ 2:29 pm

      “Is Laura Clarke the daughter of Ken Clarke?”

      I don’t know.

      I wonder why the High Commissioner referred to the four countries of the United Kingdom (and their people) instead of “Britain” and “the British” ?

    322. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack
      The main point though is, when would you have held Indy Ref 2, on the mandate(s) the SNP had, over the last 3 years?

      @Dr Jim
      Yes, but the other side of that is – why did it take so long to start that process off? Why couldn’t the Referendums (Scotland) Bill have been started earlier, or made urgent?

      Basically the comments of the two of you represent the divide, the two camps in a way. Those who say “Why wasn’t it done before?” and those who say “Have faith”.

      What I wonder is – can the two be put together?

    323. callmedave says:

      Jings! Wonder what’s in that letter Boris sent to Brussels?

      Don’t think it’s that letter… No it’s not! 🙂

    324. Dr Jim says:

      If people can’t avail themselves of the information they want and others deliberately don’t make that same information available then it of course is difficult for everyone, but it also plays into the hands of those who have their own purposes, you just cannot trust what you read

      The SNP have made all sorts of efforts to get information out but they are stymied by the press and media in the reporting of it, it’s always been the case and unlike in England where the media camp outside the doors of politicians for any titbit that doesn’t happen in Scotland because the media know what they’re going to write about beforehand whatever happens

      There are journalists who would report the truth but they can’t because they’re afraid to lose their livelyhoods which has already happened to some

      Most people have no clue the restraints the Scottish government are under when it comes to constitutional matters, one foot wrong, one dodgy legal step and Bazinga no Scottish government whereas the UK government as we’ve seen does anything they damn well please and the media just brushes it off with forelock tugging deference

      Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t have the power some folk like to attribute to her, she can’t just launch into Boris Johnson type defiance or she could find herself in contempt of her office and they’ll get rid of her and our parliament

      This all makes folk like us furious, but that’s the only weapon the UK have left now, make the Scots angry, make them doubt their own sense of identity, frustrate them, crush the spirit, and in some cases it’s working

      Some will argue that the SNP are appearing to do nothing, that’s just wrong, within the law they’re beavering away and digging up every piece of legislation and every document the UK and Scotland have ever signed and that will all be presented in court very soon once they’re sure they can win

      The section 30 thing is of course relevant but it’s not about asking for it, it’s about claiming the legal right to it that is agreed by both he UK and Scotland, the UK will shout no no no but that’s just the same as they shout Alex Salmond said, it means nothing until the legal papers are served, once the documents appear in court the attitude will change

      That’s if it even gets as far as court, because the UK knows it’s the law because they already agreed to it

    325. cirsium says:

      @mr thms, 3.11

      I wonder why the High Commissioner referred to the four countries of the United Kingdom (and their people) instead of “Britain” and “the British” ?

      Perhaps it is because the UK defined itself as four countries in one state when it joined the UN?

      Further, to quote from paragraph 4.2 from the Joanna Cherry Court of Session action
      Scotland in accepting the Union in 1707 remained a nation and as a result any sovereignty in the British parliament could not be national sovereignty.

    326. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      Me and Dr Jim agree on one thing. There should be a referendum. I suppose ultimately everything else is window dressing. If I knew for certain a r eferendum was coming even two years from now I would be happy and focused.

      I just dknt see how its going to happen

    327. robertknight says:

      Hope that BawJaws enjoyed his only conference as Leader.

      He’s there to deliver a No Deal. Whether he succeeds or fails, he’s yesterday’s man.

      Unconstitutional bullshitting Her Maj, pole-dancing blonde bombshells and alleged improper use of public funds, allegations of wandering hands under tables, the adulterous divorcee parking his g/f in No.10 with all the brass of a French politico, withdrawing the whip from 20+ MPs – like they won’t bear a grudge or three?

      The ’22 Committee, if it doesn’t already, will see him as a short term solution and a long term liability. They’ll get shot and replace him with a ‘unifying figure’ who will bring the 20+ back into the fold and lead post-Brexit trade negotiations with the EU.

      Must be the worst kept secret in Manchester this week. Everybody knows his days are numbered – except him!

    328. Dr Jim says:

      I’m off out but I just wanted to say one more thing and it’s this

      We live in a country where the First Minister of the government of the country isn’t allowed on TV without the express invitation of the broadcasters, if Nicola Sturgeon wishes to make an announcement on anything she has to ask the broadcast media to avail her the opportunity to do it

      The First Minister and leader of Scotland has to use Twitter to communicate, not because she wants to use Twitter, she has to or nobody would know anything

      Where else in the world does that happen

    329. dadsarmy says:

      @Bob Mack / @Dr Jim
      Where I sit is that I remember fine Sturgeon saying along the lines that Scotland would have another referendum when the people of Scotland wanted another referendum.

      From that point of view if we all sit there and say and do nothing, then we’ll never get another referendum.

      So those complaining about Sturgeon, ARE actually doing what she said and wanted – pushing for another referendum.

      I’m in that camp, while also being in the “Watch what’s happening in the Courts” one, plus even with the benefit of hindsight, there’s no time over the last 3 years I would have called Indy Ref 2.

    330. When are the Scottish unionists going to wake up and realise the English ruling class have been just using them for their own reasons they have them believing they are something special when really they are not they have got them talking down their own country and their own people and being proud to do so and in their special clubs masons O.O. Etc., all run by bigots and their hatred of openness honesty and compassion waken up and see you are being used as fools against your people and just in case you you think I am anti prod I am a prod.,

    331. galamcennalath says:

      Feels like living in The Matrix today.

      Johnson mouthing off about ‘his deal’ or ‘no deal’.

      I can’t see any mention in any of the MSM reporting this that ‘no deal’ is supposed to have been removed as an option by the ‘Benn Act’. It’s like Johnson is being allowed to continue his charade completely unchallenged, everywhere, on every platform. WTF is going on!?

    332. admiral says:

      Come on, Scotland. Waken up – they’re extracting the urine, every second, every minute, every hour, every day…

    333. Terry callachan says:

      Blair Patterson..3.56pm

      The thing is Blair many Scottish unionists believe that their fellow Scottish people are too wee too poor too stupid and probably as Ruth Davidson said , thieves and drunks or drug addicts.
      They’ve been led to believe this all their lives by the media.

      I have lived in many countries I was born in Dundee Scotland but left when I was one and can honestly say as an adult returning to Scotland I was amazed and taken aback at how engaging and collective most Scottish people are, they will talk to you ,help you if they can there is much more togetherness in Scotland than you would believe, the newspapers and the tv and radio especially the BBC continually make out that it’s other wise but Scottishness is togetherness.

      We will prevail
      We don’t give up

      Forgive the unionists in Scotland they are beginning to tire of Westminster’s horrible treatment of Scotland.

    334. Terry callachan says:

      Jim…3.38pm

      Well said Jim
      It’s a disgrace , it’s insulting , this is our country
      I now refer to Scotland as “ the country”

      The country has a fabulous first minister she is too smart for the other side

    335. dadsarmy says:

      Well, talking about Sturgeon who I call “Sturgeon” as we’re not best pals and don’t have each other visiting for tea, though I did get a selfie with her as many have, but I’m a bit old-fashioned in that respect, here’s her latest:

      https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1179413660327911429

      Hard to see how the UK government Brexit ‘proposals’ fly. And hard to escape conclusion that they’re designed to fail. For Scotland, the fundamental point remains – these proposals would take us out of the EU, single market and customs union against our will. That’s unacceptable.

      So – is that rhetorically unacceptable, or democratically, or even legally, unacceptable?

      Time will tell.

    336. Effijy says:

      Help! Is Boris proposing the N Ireland stays under the control of the EU
      While the rest of us get dragged out?

      If the DUP are in agreement to this after insisting they must be treated like
      Everyone else in the UK, I take it another 1.5 Billion has been offered to them
      In exchange?

    337. callmedave says:

      @Effijy

      Yes I think there has been another ‘boost’ for NI intimated today by Boris. 🙂

      Boris dangling his ‘new’ deal trying to accommodate the Mps in DUP + dodgy Labour leaver Mps and the sinful banned Tories Mps.

      Then one more go with a WM vote which if he wins… bang goes the Ben Motion and hey presto!

      So will the Scottish ‘Nob Off’ ruling if it were to get the nod
      🙁

    338. galamcennalath says:

      callmedave says:

      Then one more go with a WM vote which if he wins… bang goes the Ben Motion and hey presto!

      But first …. getting the EU to agree to it. Nae chance …. but I may be wrong.

    339. callmedave says:

      @galamcennalath

      No I think your OK. Fingers crossed.

    340. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T
      Jon Craig
      Verified account
      @joncraig
      40m minutes ago

      Parliament is to be prorogued on Tues 8 October & Queen’s Speech will go ahead on Mon 14 Oct, senior Westminster source has confirmed to Sky News. That means Boris Johnson will avoid PMQs on Wed 9 Oct.

      BawJaws will never learn.

    341. defo says:

      If it’s good enough for Norn Irn…

    342. Essexexile says:

      RobertKnight@ 3.36pm

      Good post.

      …and BoJo would probably agree with your prediction of him being the shortest serving PM ever, and indeed would probably welcome it.

      Everything I’ve read or heard about him suggests he gets bored after the initial chase and has no interest in ‘the long game’ once he’s got what he wants.

      If he ‘gets Brexit done’ and is then out on his ear, he’ll regard that as a win / win I reckon.

      I think he’d just go off in a sulk if he’s forced to ask for an extension.

      Just a reminder that our most senior politician has the temperament of a 5 year old.

    343. Dr Jim says:

      @Bob Mack @dadsarmy

      We’ve all been desperate for a referendum but if the FM had called it in 2016 we’d have lost no matter what we did because the people weren’t ready

      Scotland is small c conservative plus the No Surrender mob with the help of Ruth Davidson have been loud and helped by the media who repeated every word Davidson uttered any time she uttered it

      Look at the amount of reporting that went into Don Bertie Armstrong Mafia Millionaire fishing magnate and his five families from the North East who control the fishing, night after night treated to this man’s tearing down of the Scottish government as if the whole of Scotlands economy was based around a barrel of fish, but the punters don’t know that it’s not, because the media tells them it is, these are the same people who fished the Herring to extinction and now that they’re on the way back the SNP has protected them so these Bastirts can’t do it all over again, left to their own devices these fishermen would empty the sea and not give a shit about the future of the country, for money

      If Scotland were a Latin American country the media would’ve been stood up against a wall long ago, I know we’re not supposed to use that tone but if Boris Johnson can get away with it well I’m a nobody so only us will know I said it and nobody will care anyway

      We’re up against 3 British political parties in our own country and virtually all of the British media and the millionaires who have interests in not seeing Scotland thrive

      That’s a lot of Bastirts to fight with one arm behind our backs but I do believe we’re doing it because we’ve the legal agreed right to do it and wee Joanna Cherry and her team are on it now and as the FM originally said when the media kept banging on about invented section 30 refusals just because the *important* politicians kept saying Naw *whit ye gonnae dae noo* Nicola Sturgeon said: “I believe that position will PROVE to be unsustainable”

      I don’t think she used that word PROVE by accident

      The threat of punching us in the face isn’t enough we have to force the UK to be seen doing it then we’ll hear the quiet people of Scotland shout *Feck that for a game of soldiers we’re off* and join the rest of us

      This Saturday in Edinburgh will be covered in the media, there’ll be no getting away from this one and I’ll bet it makes the big England important news as well

    344. callmedave says:

      @Breeks

      Jings: Unicorn gone!

      That could mean a thing or maybe another thing! 🙂 or 🙁

      Strange though.

    345. Bob Mack says:

      I hope the EU do not play ball, because there are 21 Tories who will vote for it but for now sitting on the opposition benches.
      There are several Labour MPs who have already stated it would be doable,in spite of Corbyn
      In addition the DUP are again bought and paid for.

      Only hope is a big NO from Europe.

    346. galamcennalath says:

      The Scottish unicorn ripped off

      Blessed day! A sign! 😉

    347. Iain mhor says:

      So If I’m reading the current proposals by the ‘Clown in Chief for the Blessed Union’ correctly, N.I will be operating almost as “Crown Dependency’ in all but name. The EU(Ireland) & the UK will be operating seperate Trade & Customs deals (and a CTA) with dual borders (both Ireland & the UK). Oh well, I was nearly right!

      On another note; the reason for recent interest in English Devo etc, is because of my suspicion that an Indyref (or at least an S30) may gain traction if the Unionists get to knobble it with a Devo-Max option – which I believe to be a strong possibility. Of course it will just be another “Vow” to be consigned to the dustbin, but it will split the Indy vote.

      Devo- Max of course requires a form of federalism and federalism can’t be stopped at the Scottish border, there will be a requirement to appease England; whether in the form of English Devo or just more decentralising of key elements (and a few DUP type bungs) That’s a possibility, but probably guaranteed in any such arrangement will be precisely that – ‘decentraliation’.
      It may be a form of federalism, which sees the decentralising of Holyrood’s powers out to Scotland’s local Authorities. Good for the Unionist coalition councils and the new civil service at Queen Libby house.

      Whether or not a promise of a similar S30, dangled by M Donnell & Labour to help put them in power, will also include a devo-max clause is another moot point. With a No deal Brexit getting tight to the wire, Labour is seriously considering climbing into bed with the SNP – in my opinion anyway. Corbyn can’t get there on his own and needn’t look to the Lib-Dems under Swinson, who has already plumped her pillows on the Tory side of the duvet.

      Anyway, better get some grub on.

    348. galamcennalath says:

      On the off chance the EU accept Boris’ ‘Norway style’ solution AND WM votes it through, it isn’t necessarily bad for Indy.

      It would mean a 21 month transition period begins. IndyRef2 can go ahead on the basis that we have been dragged out against our will.

      The downside is perhaps that it won’t be against a background of Brexit induced chaos which might help our cause.

      The upside is perhaps that it won’t be against a background of Brexit induced chaos which could be used as propaganda saying “this chaos will happen all over again with independence”.

      We can focus on being dragged out, WM atrocious attitudes towards Scotland, and all the lies plus broken promises.

      Also, WM will be very busy with trade agreements. It will become apparent quickly that they want a US agreement with low regulations AND only a basic EU trade agreement at removed from the single market. That does not suit Scots, nor the Scottish economy.

      A withdrawal deal in the short term may never happen, of course.

    349. One_Scot says:

      If I was a betting man having watched this,

      https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1179440563122098176

      I would say the EU look like crumbling.

    350. Doug says:

      Looks like Johnson’s “offer” could heat up the north of Ireland – again. Not that he’s bothered about that.

      https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/a-complete-lack-of-regard-for-ireland-irish-politicians-respond-to-johnson-backstop-proposals-954485.html

    351. Dr Jim says:

      The Scottish Tory party (misnomer) PPB

      With every word they uttered in this PPB the Tories shot themselves in both feet, *No more referendums* three or four times they said that then they blew it with one phrase

      *We will oppose* because they can’t deny or refuse and they know it

      “We’re the only party who can stand against Nicola Sturgeon” they said, as if she was made the FM from some Military coup or under false pretences

      If you get the chance watch it, it’s pathetic, oh and the star of their little movie, Kirsten Hair, remember her she’s the one who said she didn’t know how to vote over Brexit becasue it was too difficult for her to decide

      Now she’s full on Gung Ho Eva Braun

    352. Colin Alexander says:

      Has anyone noticed in the Scottish version of the uk coat of arms both beasts wear crowns.

      In the non-Scottish UK coat of arms only the English lion wears the crown.

      The armorial version of who wears the troosers in the uk?

    353. ahundredthidiot says:

      Colin Alexander @6:43 re coat of arms…..I’m not sure about the crown thingy, but in all of them the Unicorn is shackled.

      Not today.

      I’m taking that as a sign, even the chain was lying in tatters.

    354. Tam the Bam. says:

      Dr Jim @ 6-38pm

      I caught that PPB Dr Jim.
      Why oh why would the Scottish (get in line) Tories feature Kirsten (oh Brexit is far too difficult for me to engage with) Hair in a PPB.
      Laughed my sides off!

    355. Tam the Bam. says:

      Off topic

      Has anyone else noticed the phrase ‘The island of Ireland’ gaining circulation? Interesting.

    356. Effijy says:

      Tory PPB a hate Nicola and SNP fest stop Scotland from having any kind
      Of worthwhile voice in Westminster.

    357. nycgype says:

      Like many readers, I don’t comment on here very often. I work and by the time I’ve read through everything the conversation has moved on. I read the articles and the vast majority of the responses – sometimes days afterwards. I appreciate the depth of perspective, experience and opinion provided btl.

      We have to keep in mind that we are all pushing towards independence and it’s entirely understandable that we have different opinions in how to get there. We should encourage all points of view and let them stand or fall on their arguments or merits.

      I spent 8 years working in a tough environment in NYC and the starting point of every group conversation was ‘you’re wrong’. It forced people to back up their arguments and think about their point of view. The result was sometimes you were right, sometimes you needed to look at things from a different perspective. The process resulted in breaking down group think or agreeing with perceived wisdom.

      I find the difference of opinion and debate healthy. If someone disagrees with your point of view, so what? Stand up and defend it – assuming you’ve reached it with considered thought. You might be right you might be wrong.

      I do not agree with the current SNP strategy. I think we should aggressively assert Scottish sovereignty and disregarded Westminster convention. I accept however it’s an entirely plausible stance that the softly, softly approach may work. Challenging that approach however is a very legitimate stance. I’ll still vote for the SNP but nobody should be expected to provide uncritical support.

    358. Benhope says:

      Tam the Bam at 7.00.

      Simple, Kirsten is an attractive blonde young woman. Image is everything on tv. Who is checking IQs ?

    359. Lenny Hartley says:

      One-scot because a spokesman for the EU is a statesman do not take that as a weakness. I suggest you watch ch4 news tonight and you will see that The EU are far from crumbling.

    360. Heart of Galloway says:

      Reaction from Brussels to BoJo’s cunning plan.

      “I can tell you that the first reaction of the Brexit steering group was not positive. We don’t think these are the safeguards thst Ireland needs. The first assessment of nearly every member of the Brexit steering group was not positive at all.” – Guy Verhofstad MEP, chairman.

      Reporter: “Do you think it was a serious effort or is this trying to put the blame on you.?”

      GV: “I think your last point was not so bad.”

      C4 reporter: “So there we go – he’s not just saying this is a bad but almost insinuates that the Prime Minister Boris Johnson may not be operating in good faith.”

      Ouch. The truth laid bare right there. There is no chance the EU can or will give ground and why should they?

      They know they can never trust Perfudious Albion and have had run of patience.

      And aye Dr Jim, the shortbread Torres PPB was priceless comedy gold.

    361. Heart of Galloway says:

      …make that a bad DEAL in last quote. Duh!

    362. One_Scot says:

      ‘statesman’, Lol, he looked and sounded like he had just kaked his pants.

    363. Effijy says:

      Boris Brexit:

      Breaks the Good Friday Agreement
      Sends even more £Billions to the Bigots of the DUP
      Doesn’t allow freedom of movement as per the Norway Deal
      Will the UK have massive annual payments to make to the EU, just like Norway
      Gives N I a greater trading opportunity over Scotland
      Customs checks after the event is just absurd.
      Scotland the only country to vote remain who are to be dragged out.

      I seen in the news a border sign advertising Diesel Fuel at £1.23 per litre?
      Here in Glasgow, largest City in the country of Scotland, rich in oil these last 50 years
      Has the lowest supermarket price of £1.27.
      Is this yet another subsidy from Scotland’s revenues given to the Ulster Mafia from the Westminster Mafia?

    364. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      Re: the unicorn at Buck house making a break for freedom.

      Interesting to compare the old Scottish coat of arms, with what went later.

      Royal coat of arms of Scotland…
      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_Kingdom_of_Scotland.svg/1024px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_Kingdom_of_Scotland.svg.png

      Coat of arms of James VI from 1603 as both the King of Scots and as King James I of England, France, and Ireland…
      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Coat_of_Arms_of_Scotland_%281603-1649%29.svg/1024px-Coat_of_Arms_of_Scotland_%281603-1649%29.svg.png

      Arms of Queen Elizabeth II used in Scotland…
      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28Scotland%29.svg/1024px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28Scotland%29.svg.png

      Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom…
      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/2000px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png

      Most images are by “Sodacan” and found at Wikipedia.

      The unicorns have always been chained. Perchance, when we have our independence, Scotland’s coat of arms will have the unicorns unchained. (See my next comment.)

    365. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      The chains ripped from the unicorn.

      A badge Pete and I produced…

      https://sites.google.com/site/webgaffer/_/rsrc/1472779047643/home/badge-designs/Unicorn3-46mm-SAMPLE.jpg

      The text on the badge taken from this song, performed at TITP 2016…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj4NvNw2G6o

    366. HandandShrimp says:

      One Scot

      I think you are mistaken. The EU position has always been to avoid a No Deal. He is saying nothing new. They offered a deal to May. What Boris is proposing is a dogs breakfast of sticking plasters to try and appease the wing nuts in the DUP and his own wing nuts while keeping the bulk of May’s deal.

      The EU may discuss his proposals. His letter to the EU says it is a “landing strip” – broad suggestions to form a basis of discussions.some of the dafter notions may quickly be kicked into touch.

      Of course, Parliament may vote against it regardless of whether the EU approve a version of it.

    367. One_Scot says:

      Time will tell.

    368. hackalumpoff says:

      The #Brexit Steering group at the @Europarl_EN is absolutely not postive about PM Johnson’s proposals. It doesn’t provide the necessary safeguards for Ireland. Full written statement tomorrow.

      video

      https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1179454449443581953

    369. HandandShrimp says:

      If the EU decide to go for a variant of this keeping most of the original deal intact Farage’s head will will explode. He will call it a surrender document. It may make the election interesting.

    370. Dr Jim says:

      Yep, up a gum tree without a Koala, but then does Boris Johnson really want a deal, I don’t think so,I think he wants to be a Brexit hero to the folk who think he’s a man of his word even if his word is crap

      Such is the stupidity of the division now that it’s not about right or wrong good or bad, the whole thing’s just them or us, and the entrenched right wingers won’t back down

      Harry Hill to the rescue, Fiight!!

    371. Clapper57 says:

      So apparently a Union day holiday has been suggested by yon Alister JACK…..no seriously, this is the new save the Union secretary’s official COMEBACK…he knows the last numpty was given (rightly) the SACK…so he thinks this will be his anti Scot Nat winning COUNTERATTACK…that will keep him in a job and Scotland as England’s KNICKKNACK …pity then the audience seemed underwhelmed in their FEEDBACK…perhaps it’s his style of delivery or rather the LACK (of)….meanwhile us Scots rightly see this as a kind of PAYBACK…for daring to want to leave and creating a UKOK SETBACK….so strengthen a ‘Union’ that exists only in the minds of a MYTHOMANIAC….where the reality is it’s like living in a badly built unionist HELLSHACK…a Union not fit for any purpose other than giving the LEASEBACK….well past it’s sell by date and deserved of all our negative FLAK….

      But Alister is one of Bojo’s boys and that , for him, is an APHRODISIAC…stay on message and keep conning the Scots to stay on TRACK…like we Scots suffer the symptoms of an AMNESIAC…no amount of forced planting of unwanted flags called the Union JACK…will convince any Scot of worth they’ll convert to be one of the Unionist PACK… a sad ploy so obvious in that it seems like a badly contrived THROWBACK…to times when gullible Scots believed they were being given a PIGGYBACK…from England without whom they gullible Scots would be enduring many a CUTBACK…but now we Scots know better and will no longer fall for this YAKETY YAK…cause the time is now for us Scots to leave this Union CUL-DE-SAC….a dead end for Scots who want to live and thrive and not look BACK…so Alister and co there is no point you trying to HIJACK…our allegiance to the Union is as dead as your fantastical imperial FLASHBACK…so jog on cause your spiel falls on deaf ears like your Tory promises that BACKTRACK…

      And like the HUNCHBACK of Notre Dame…..you ain’t ringing any bells in Scotland with your Uber Union SOUNDTRACK…so farewell, so long , auf wiedersehen and ADIEU ADIEU cause we Scots without YOU are staying in the EU……the NOO…so hit the road JACK and don’t you come BACK no more no more….The End..we hope.

      This was a party political broadcast brought to you by the Mark Francois Braces party for men too rotund to wear a belt and who need to resort to Braces….funded by the ERG ( Egomaniac Rabid Gammons)…..who breed like flies and live on lies.

    372. Contrary says:

      Dr Tim Rideout has created a handy, clear and concise, website describing how a new Scottish currency can be introduced, along with economy info, useful for linking to and distributing (though, something like this would be useful to have for each aspect of ‘questions that may be asked’ about how we are going to actually do it):

      https://www.reservebank.scot

      Well, I think it’s good stuff.

    373. Terry callachan says:

      Benhope….7.25pm

      Kirsten Hair MP for Angus her family own farms that’s why she got votes
      Your vote or your job

      By the way , are you still under cover doing your special ops missions ? haha just kidding good books though.

    374. Terry callachan says:

      B Johnston’s latest offer of a deal will get nowhere its already been rejected by Southern Ireland

      Any agreement has to be agreed by Southern Ireland and the EU it’s unlikely the EU will agree to this latest deal either

      But B Johnston knew that before he wrote it up it’s all part of the bluff I mean plan

      Once it’s rejected by all
      By the weekend I think
      There are four weeks left for an agreement to be reached two of those weeks would be required for writing up any agreement that materialises
      So we really only have next week and the week after to reach agreement

      It’s not going to happen unless B Johnston betrays the DUP and agrees to a border down the middle of the Irish Sea which is pretty much what Theresa May came up with .

      It’s very possible that if the EU and southern Ireland agree on a border down the middle of the Irish Sea the Westminster lot will also agree to it rather than see a no deal but it might be the week after next before Westminster agree

    375. Terry callachan says:

      Looking forward to Saturday
      Marching up the royal mile with the good people of Scotland who want Scottish independence

      I’m so excited
      I can’t help it , it takes my breath and just about brings tears to my eyes when I hear the pipes and see the saltire and so many people standing up for Scotland’s right to handle its own affairs as an independent country

      Going by train
      Was gonna stay overnight but it’s so costly for a decent hotel
      I thought about the Edinburgh castle hostel which gets great reviews
      But in the end I decided just to get the train home to Dundee Saturday evening

    376. robertknight says:

      In mythology (and heraldry) Unicorns are supposed to be chained up – they’re dangerous beasts. Only a virgin maiden can tame them. They are also a symbol of the purity of Christ. Not sure that chained unicorns have any degree of symbology in terms of Scotland’s political situation – they’ve been supporting the Royal Arms of the King of Scots since the early Stewart Kings. Leave them chained I say.

    377. schrodingers cat says:

      england closes westminster…… scotland re opens it

      boris refuses to ask for an extention to leave date, scottish courts will do it for him.

      boris lies to queen, scottish courts will emprison him.

      question, why does england want to leave one union, the EU, but stay in another union, the UK

      surely thats not independence?

      🙂

    378. shug says:

      If Boris gets his way and there are border checks in Ireland and there is a border up the Irish sea with NI following the republic it looks like it will rile both sides.
      The IRA wont like the border checks regardless where they are and the UDA folks wont like following the republic rules as required by full regulatory alignment or checks being done at the Irish sea.

      Where will this leave the Unionists in Scotland?

    379. Essexexile says:

      Terry Callaghan
      250k marchers… That’s a helluva thing! No wonder you’re so excited. It’ll be a great day and (maybe) an ‘I was there’ moment with JC set to address the crowds afterwards. The movement really needs a springboard right now and the Edinburgh march might be it.
      Btw, I share your lack of unhappiness that a certain element of Wings BTL, comprising a handful of individuals, appears to have now entirely purged itself from further contribution.
      Intelligent, considered output is the norm here. We don’t need a few bad apples contaminating the whole crop.
      We’ve been led a merry dance on the path to indy and we’ve all been driven to despair at times. I look at WM politics right now and think ‘surely there must be something better than this’.
      I’m sure in Edinburgh, at the weekend, you will be sure that there is.

    380. Doug says:

      @schrodingers cat 9:50pm

      Nice one. And England’s cider fields are running dry and England will need to spend £billions to decommission them

    381. Sarah says:

      @BDTT and others: the unicorn is not chained: the chain is loose because the point of a unicorn is they can’t be chained [except by a virgin maiden, as Robert Knight says above].

      Thanks for the links [cough] BDTT.

    382. McDuff says:

      schrogingers cat

      Good way to look at it. Of course the reason England wants to stay in the UK union is because it completely dominates it unlike the EU where they do not, and they can`t stand being in that position.

    383. Terry Callaghan

      Kirsten Hair will have her work cut out at the next election. The SNP has picked Heather Anderson to be the candidate there. She is another in the mold of Joanna Cherry – Feisty, and knows her stuff … and from a fantastic farming background.

      Hopefully the SNP will regain that seat with ease.

    384. Doug says:

      Why would the Irish Government sign up for checks as part of a deal when it thinks checks are the worst thing about no deal?

      And why would the Irish and EU leave the people of the north of Ireland customs arrangements open to a future veto by the bunged-up-beyond-decency DUP?

    385. Doug says:

      Scotland, Ireland, the EU and the rest of the world know that British nationalist Westminster can never be trusted.

    386. Capella says:

      Nick Eardley tweets that Boris Johnston will prorogue Parliament next Tuesday and hold a Queen’s speech on 14th. No PMQs next week.

      https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1179438312660058112?s=20

    387. Phronesis says:

      Crikey, Boris’s Speech Writer was busy today or was it all Boris’s work- cutting and pasting from other speeches written by individuals who still have a moral compass and shred of humanity. His speech was bold, packed full of metaphoric concepts and figurative expressions, amazing tidbits of information to quell fears of economic collapse, food and medicine shortages because of Brexit and ignored the devastating effects of austerity and disinvestment in state infrastructure that his party has presided over. A little bit of drift sometimes as it descended into nostalgia, maudlin sentiment and downright lies.

      Citizens-fear not, we can all be reassured about ‘astonishing’ exports that will sustain the economy post Brexit,
      ‘an Isle of Wight ship-builder that exports vast leisure catamarans to Mexico, Jason Donovan CDs to North Korea, exported Nigel Farage to America – though he seems to have come back’
      Wow-Jason Donovan CDs to North Korea and Farage returns. The cutting edge of capitalism.

      Astounding -the Conservatives are the party of the NHS. That really means a quick fire sale to create NHS Inc and boost the coffers of the 0.1% nation Conservatives and their backers.

      ‘We are the party of the NHS and I claim that title because it is our one nation conservatism that has delivered and will deliver the economic growth that makes those investments possible, and it is we Conservatives who will solve the problem of social care’

      And linkage is very important- it’s great for Daily Mail headlines. The SNP are involved in a Marxist ‘coup’ with Corbyn to stir up ‘total national discord’ secretly devising another Indyref – unacceptable when 2020 is going to be a great year particularly if you have shares in Jason Donovan CDs.

      https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/full-text-boris-johnsons-tory-conference-speech/

      The speech today is a fantasy and disconnected from the suffering and lived experiences of millions of citizens. The NHS is not safe in his hands, there are record numbers of UK citizens living in food poverty, fuel poverty, rising child poverty rates as a result of conservative ideological policy choices. Scotland, the country, is not amused, entertained nor on side with the UK. We need not be party to this debacle when Scotland remains united as a country on Scotland’s position within Europe. Scotland’s democracy is not dying in a ditch.

      https://nhaparty.org/facts/proof-of-nhs-privatisation/
      https://cpag.org.uk/
      https://undocs.org/A/HRC/41/39/Add.1

    388. HYUFD says:

      Excellent plan from Boris today, takes GB out of the Customs Union and Single Market and just leaves NI in the Single Market for goods only until a technical solution found to the Irish border

    389. Dr Jim says:

      I’ve just been watching the BBCs The Nine and may take my own life, I can’t watch another second of it, the guests and the audience are about the level of the Buckfast survivors club ex life long members, apologies to any of them who aren’t but maybe they’re the ones who should be opening their mouths and not the ones who already have

      I never thought I’d say it but this is almost as bad as the Question time moron audience, who ever came up with the idea to have members of the public who can barely distinguish right from left or up from down as participants in a political discussion programme

      It’s like the media have contrived to find the most idiots they can and present them on TV like some sort of Gogglebox I’m a bake of get me out of Love island Kardashian nightmare show so they can all sit back and laugh at the population turning on their TVs to be even more thick than the nonsense they’re watching

      If there has to be programmes like this then surely to God people should have to pass at least some kind of simple test like have you ever read a whole grown up persons book or name four people in the government and what they do or even just do you need glasses to think with or how much are carrots or any bloody vegetable because this lot clearly are eating something that’s not good for them mentally

      My 12 year granddaughter is a genius compared to this lot, where do these people come from

    390. Dan says:

      It’s all in the mind…
      Voila my cunning Plan C*
      While us Scots are attempting to slowly awaken and gain a majority of oor seemingly comatose population to the fact that oor southern neighbours are dragging us in a direction we dinae want to go…
      A view from a majority of oor southern neighbours’ perspectives might be that Scotland is attempting to deny them from arriving at their preferred destination.

      So, that Unicorn isnae chained, it’s a powerful force that is attempting to drag its perceived chain holders in a direction they dinae want to go.
      That being the case we can keep trying to promote the benefits of Scottish Indy to the dour and reluctant Scots until we finally gain a majority to get it over the line, if we are ever afforded some kind of inevitably corruptible democratic process…
      Or we could quickly setup Wings over England and rally the already present majority that would happily vote for English Indy…

      AUOB and YES Bikers have already attended most of the big Scottish cities, so maybe now is the time to go on a wee tour doon sooth.
      Could be some top bantz.

      What do we Want?
      English Independence!
      When do we want it?
      Now!

      Jocks! Jocks! Jocks!
      Out! Out! Out!

      Pesky Scots! Hands Off Are Parlymant!

      *Other plans are available, such as Plan D

      Sail off to warmer climes for muchos cheapness whilst scoring maximum recycling and environmentally sound points.

      https://www.gumtree.com/p/surfboards-windsurfs/windsurfer-free-to-uplift-/1353553116

      Alert readers will note there are two boards available so rsvp if you fancy tagging along. lol

    391. Balaaargh says:

      Excellent plan from Boris today, NI gets to stay in the SM proving that it is possible “for the regions” to get preferential access but it’s not for the sweaty socks who voted to stay. Another entry for the WBB demonstrating how the money-grubbing scum in the WM establishment don’t give a shit about Scotland or its people.

      Bring on indyref!

    392. Dr Jim says:

      There is a solution to the British border in Northern Ireland, move it to Scotland where it’s getting nearer to every day, Northern Ireland and Ireland reunify and Scotland becomes Independent, problem solved

      Then England can be an Independent country and stand on their own feet instead of stealing and sponging from Scotland, they’ll be happy and we’ll be happy and every other country around the world who has taken their freedom from British Imperialism will congratulate Scotland and N Ireland and welcome us into the club that none of them ever want to return to

      Because it’s so great innit

    393. jeff says:

      Watch out everyone HYFUD just farted again.

    394. Cubby says:

      I would like to take this opportunity to commend Barrhead boy for once again flying in to Scotland for another independence march. A true independence supporter who puts his money and time where his mouth is.

    395. HYUFD says:

      I see the pro democracy protestors of Hong Kong have been waving Union Jacks and singing ‘God Save the Queen’ outside the British Consulate.
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-49705984

      Perhaps the UK could swap Yes voting Glasgow for Hong Kong?

    396. Dr Jim says:

      If anybody sees me at the march come and say hello, I’ll be the guy with the grey white hair and the 8foot sea fishing rod with my Saltire on it

      Look out for the fishing rod I’m too mean to buy a pole

    397. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@11.40pm

      Propaganda Quay picked them. Just more propaganda to make Scots look stupid.

      Britnats say look at how crap the programmes are that are produced by Scots on this new Scottish channel. All just more propaganda trying to diminish Scots and Scotland.

    398. Cubby says:

      I told you HYFUD had a colonial mindset.

    399. Dr Jim says:

      It’s always the thug element waving the Union flags that cause the trouble, it’s built in Empire brainwashing, if folk wont do what you want, shout loud then hit them

      Take a lesson from 250.000 marchers this Saturday waving Saltires and not a soul will be hurt or even barely offended

      That’s unless the Orange Union flag wavers have’nt planned themselves an intervention which would be unwise for them because the cops are onto them and their trouble

    400. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      HYUFD at 11.33

      Here’s a better idea. Just revoke Article 50. Problem solved.

    401. Dan says:

      @HYUFD at 11:33 pm

      Aye, it’s a totes excellent plan to restrict folk’s potential dating candidates…

      https://twitter.com/SebDance/status/1047032564601499650

      @Dr Jim at 12:02

      Market analysts have been miffed by the high sales of fishing rods in Scotland in recent years.
      Considering taking my beachcaster for increased flag elevation.
      I’m not on the bike this weekend as meeting up with family for the march. All specially laid on buses from my local areas have been fully booked with waiting lists so could be a braw turnout.

      Anyone ken when the Wings fundraiser perks are getting sent out? Could have done with the bag for carrying my lunch.

    402. Cubby says:

      Britnats are always saying Scottish independence supporters want to create a new border.

      Johnson’s plan will create 2 borders in the island of Ireland and another in the Irish Sea and of course another one in the English Channel and in Gibraltar. So we know who are the people wanting to create new borders – the Tory Britnats.

    403. Dr Jim says:

      @Dan 12:26am

      My brother bought himself a pole but I found it too bendy in the wind, the sea rod is much less flexible so yer flag doesn’t tend to bend right over into folks coupons and you don’t have to keep swirling it about so much when yer flag wraps itself round yer rod in the wind plus if you’ve got some bits and bobs of kit with you you can have a bit of a fish if the mood takes you coz it works OK as an all round rod if there’s a bit of water nearby

    404. manandboy says:

      The Prime Minister’s latest performance, is yet more rocket fuel to power, among other things, Scotland’s resolve to recover its Independence, despite all the Colonial odds stacked against it by its ‘Treaty partner’.

      So also Wales and NI. Democracy is a bitch when you are addicted to Empire, with its lording over other nations.

      That’s the root of England’s problem with the EU – Europe refuses to be colonised by the English Establishment. PMJohnson foolishly believes he must strive to turn that around, or else, ‘punish’ continental Europe for clinging to its collective sovereignty by leaving the EU in the kind of self-harming tantrum practiced by the spoiled, entitled and privileged children of the English Establishment. While the brainwashed and confused Brexiters tag along, as they have been trained to do.

      Life – something that happens while you are busy planning something quite different.

      The Brexit Avalanche continues. In next week’s episode……

    405. Ken500 says:

      The Westminster Gov gave Hong Kong back to Chinese dominance. 99 Lease. They caused the trouble. Opium wars. Britain attacked China. Japanese violently attacked China. Nanking. 1937-45 The Fifteen year’s war. Pearl Harbour 1941. Japan Treaty with Germany and Italy. Brought US into 11WW. Hiroshima. Atomic bomb.

      Trident dumped in Scotland, without permission, by Westminster unionist imbeciles, Greenham Common, 40 minutes from London closed in 1992. After protests.

      China – ‘Britain the island without influence or Empire’.

      ‘Scotland the land of discovery and invention’.

    406. starlaw says:

      I hope the EU accepts this offer just to see Johnson squirm as they are supposed to reject the offer. The people of N I will sort this out themselves at the next election.

    407. Breeks says:


      manandboy says:
      3 October, 2019 at 5:39 am
      The Prime Minister’s latest performance, is yet more rocket fuel to power, among other things, Scotland’s resolve to recover its Independence, despite all the Colonial odds stacked against it by its ‘Treaty partner’…

      I get the heebie-geebies about Johnson. I see the same arsehole everybody else does, I see he’s a liar, indiscreet, a fat mouth,… we all know the profile, and yet for all of that, he is inspiring to his BritNat minions… and more so than Farage.

      Johnson, and the juggernaut of English Nationalism will not be brought down by conventional means. It will gobble up Brexit if it kills it, and dare the world by asking for more. I suppose the closest we come to that in Scotland is amongst that section of Rangers supporters who revel in being hated or disliked. It’s a mind toxin, but an addictive one.

      To be clear, I don’t see Johnson as anything special. Amongst populist gobshites, I’d rank him lower than average, but what is more difficult to gauge because there’s much less written about it, is the extent to which populist dictators like Mussolini or Hitler, or proto-dictators like wannabe Johnson, were elevated to their dangerous position by strength of their own character, or the weakness and inability of others to stop them.

      We have a very average populist Proto-Dictator in Johnson, but opposing him, we have the utterly dismal Jeremy Corbyn, and the mind numbingly stupid and self serving Jo Swinson. The brains in the organisation is clearly the SNP, but if we divide up the “rebel alliance” into it’s three component parts, two of those component parts are false “friends” of convenience who might, repeat might hang together long enough to win a Commons vote, but would cock their leg on Scottish Independence in a heartbeat.

      It is fanciful delusion to think that we are building a constructive coalition which will ever embrace Scotland’s progress towards Independence. It doesn’t matter how you alter the formula, there are three elements, Toryism, Labourism, and Lib-Demism, which are fundamentally incompatible with Scottish Independentism. The chemistry in my opinion is unalterable.

      Boris Johnson is a liar and a crook, but the Boris Johnson regime doesn’t care. Their mentality is such that the Reporter whom Johnson allegedly groped should think herself lucky she’s not raising a Boris Johnson love child. That’s not meant to be flippant; misogyny and male-chauvinism are integral components of fascist mentality. Boris Johnson is their idol because nobody knows how many kids he’s fathered. Boris is their idol because he’ll thumb his nose at convention and Establishment.

      I’ve said it before. It isn’t Winston Churchill whom we should be comparing Johnston against, but the rabid colonial exceptionalism of an Edward 1st, who’s greed and opportunism wouldn’t recognise the sovereignty of any other, nor would it fret about instigating decades and centuries of war. Does that sound too radical? I’m guessing Ireland doesn’t think so.

      Come on SNP. Come on Ian Blackford. Come on Joanna Cherry, especially Joanna Cherry,.. the Robert the Bruce moment is upon you… you cannot any longer justify being in the Court of Edward 1. You MUST strike out for Scotland. It is time.

    408. Cubby says:

      BREXIT MEANS BREXIT

      NO DEAL IS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL

      GET BREXIT DONE

      BRITNAT TORY CHAOS

      GET SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE DONE

      I only like the last slogan.

    409. Ken500 says:

      Westminster Gov handed Hong Kong back to Chinese dominance.99 year lease. British Opium War. Japanese violent invasion of China 1937-45. Nanking. Japanese Treaty with Germany and Italy. Pearl Harbour 1941 took US into WW11. Hiroshima.

      Trident dumped in Scotland without permission by Westminster unionists imbeciles. Greenham Common facility, 40 minutes from London shut down in 1992. After protests.

      Any trade wars will just put up prices. The natives will get restless. Start complaining. Non EU membership will put up prices.

    410. Terry callachan says:

      To HYUFD 11.33pm

      That option you mention has already been rejected by Southern Ireland as unworkable because the “goods” would still have to be checked for authenticity and origin which means border checks .
      Boris thought about border checks “ 30 miles away from the border” but the EU has said that is unworkable too and as for “waiting until a technical solution can be found to the Irish border” that has already been rejected by the EU and Southern Ireland several times.

      By the way it’s not the Irish border

      It’s the British border in Ireland
      That’s what the people in Ireland call it

    411. Terry callachan says:

      Meg merrilees..hope so

    412. Terry callachan says:

      Essexexile .. good lad ,onwards and upwards Scottish independence

    413. Ken500 says:

      Scottish Gov mandate. Keep EU membership stop Brexit (86%). Johnston will be gone soon. Another GE. Vote SNP/SNP. Another IndyRef (52%+). Vote for a Independence. Could be another EU Ref. People have to vote for it. One campaign at a time. Or both could be lost. Prioritise a good strategy for success in life. Good management. To win. Demographics changing.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get another to vote as well.

      The Tories are toast, especially in Scotland.

    414. Golfnut says:

      @ Breeks.

      Excellent comment, I always enjoy reading your take on events.
      I would disagree with the pairing of Edward 1 with Johnson, perhaps both being born into wealth being their only commonality. Edward was as younger man by all accounts different to the dark megalomaniac his character descends into, highly educated, a meticulous planner, he had the mind of lawyer. What changed for Edward is hard to nail down, but change he did. On the other hand Johnson, has never been anything other than arsehole.

    415. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “The Trump administration slapped 25% tariffs on French wine, Italian cheese and SINGLE MALT SCOTCH WHISKY”

      https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1WH2G7

      Worth noting that both current head and previous head of the Scotch Whisky Association are ex UK Diplomats (potential MI6 types).

      The previous head of SWA was David Frost who is now the BoJos Europe Adviser and Chief Negotiator for Exiting the European Union.

      These tarriffs will be weaponised in the same way the Common Fisheries Policy is “This is all the fault of the EU ‘cos Airbus and EssEnnPeeBaaad want to stay in/rejoin the EU”.

    416. Heart of Galloway says:

      Dr Jim@11.40pm

      Totally agree wi’ ye. I forced myself to watch the Q&A on Brexit and was struck by how the debate was framed in UK terms. 17.4 million voted to leave, NI backstop etc etc.

      It was so bad I had to bale oot a couple of times but from what I saw and heard the only meaningful reference to Scotland was from a lassie in the audience who reminded everybody that Scotland voted strongly to remain in the EU.

      Yet there was an SNP MP on the panel, Stewart MacDonald.

      I may have missed it and if so apologies to him. but at no time did I hear him mention how Scotland has the right to choose independence, that Boris Johnson is a lawbreaker and a liar, that power lies with the people of Scotland and no-one else to decide our future, that legally Scotland is an equal partner in the union yet is being treated like an abused wife, and like any woman in such a situation can dissolve the contract of marriage on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour to the endangerment of our wellbeing and very survival.

      So memo to SNP: please instruct whoever is chosen to appear on TV or radio – no matter whether the programme is good, bad or ugly, or the audience figures – always FRAME THE DEBATE IN SCOTTISH TERMS.

      We are frozen out often enough – deliberately – by the MSM at almost every turn. So when we do get a platform we must MAKE IT COUNT now of all times. That ways at least we have a chance of getting the truth out to the undecideds.

      We cannot afford to paddle the U.K. canoe any longer.

    417. North chiel says:

      So the Bojo “Scotland strategy” is clear ? Following the “ hard Brexit car crash” and the severe damage and injury to the Scottish economy, “Dr Boris and his Scottish nurses “ will be “ in charge” of recovery & rehabilitation via a series of “ Union Jack administered cash injections “ designed to stabilise “ the patient” . Thereafter, it will of course take many years of “ careful nursing” to restore the patient to a semblance of the former being ,to include of course “ mental “ as well as physical “ reconditioning “ under the careful control of the Westminster Britnat emergency response team”. Perhaps the “ false friends in the rebel alliance” mentioned in “Breeks” post @ 0751 a.m.,also see this as the only way of saving the patient from “ the Independence disease” . ??

    418. Ottomanboi says:

      @HYUFD
      The pro democracy agitators in Hong Kong waving union flags and singing the Brit national song is ironic given the conspicuous lack of popular ‘democracy’ when under British rule.
      The ‘two systems’ model operating in HK was agreed between the Chinese and British.
      The Chinese have every reason to distrust the British given the historic context, opium wars etc.
      Much of this is muddle headed social media frenzy by people with an identity problem.
      Would they demonstrate over the persecution of the Uyghur muslims or the growing suppression of Christians?

    419. Bob Mack says:

      @Breeks,

      I agree with just about every word. The tariffs imposed on Whisky are more to do with weakening Scotlands economy rather than punishing the EU.

      Boris asks Trump. Trump delivers.

      The assault on Scot!and grows, as we show more appetite to be free.

    420. ghostly606 says:

      Love the French! “oooo la la”

      😀

    421. Bob Mack says:

      Delighted to hear that Michelle Thomson has been named as the SNP candidate for E Lothian.

      It was a disgrace the way she had to endure the witch nunt.

    422. Cubby says:

      Ireland didn’t have a vote in N.Ireland leaving the EU. N. Ireland voted remain. Yet the Britnats are creating no end of grief and uncertainty for them. The British Empire’s misrule all over the world continues to come back to haunt them but they do not recognise the obvious background problem and almost blame the Irish for not just getting back in the old imperial box and do what they are told.

      Scotland of course voted to reject leaving the EU but the Britnats continue to create grief and uncertainty for Scots except of course for the craven Scot Britnat Tories who are now lapping up a no deal Brexit possibility while at the same time Truthless Davidson and Manky Mundell are hiding in their attic.

      GET SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE DONE

    423. Iain mhor says:

      @HYUFD 11:33PM

      Sarcasm surely? Everybody and their dug came up with that plan years ago.
      Some actually came up with marginally better. (Even I had a mad idea of making NI a ‘Crown Protectorate/Dependency)
      Some people, astoundingly, even came up with genuinely workable plans.
      I wonder if you read anywhere what they might entail.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-divided-kingdom/

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/independence-for-england/

    424. Big Del says:

      Going to my first march on Saturday, I’m always offshore when they have previously happened.
      Also Going with a few mates, 1 from Germany who is also in the Tartan army…
      really looking forward to it.

    425. Frank Gillougley says:

      Janey Godley is still the best.
      Sheer Poetry.

      https://twitter.com/JaneyGodley/status/1178635082103439360

    426. Lenny Hartley says:

      Seen on twitter that #itstimescotland who recently ran a successful crowd fundraiser to pay for billboards and adverts have had their adverts pulled from Greeneking pubs, so if your out and about these are thevpubs to avoid! Greene King is the UK’s largest pub retailer and brewer; 2,700 pubs, restaurants and hotels including brands Hungry Horse, Chef & Brewer and Farmhouse Inns.
      This was the advert they pulled
      https://twitter.com/ItsTimeScot/status/1179501432120250377?s=20

    427. HYUFD says:

      Ottomolanboi It was the last Hong Kong governor Chris Patten in 1995 who enabled the first full democratic elections to the Hong Kong Legislative Council despite opposition from Beijing

    428. Cubby says:

      Only a Britnat with a colonial mindset could boast about giving a bit of Democracy to a colony (after ruling it for a century) TWO Years before they lose the colony.

      An insight to the mindset of a colonial Tory. We know best they say and you must like it (or else). Cruel Britannia right enough.

    429. Dr Jim says:

      Yay for Michelle Thompson a nice lovely woman and she’s got guts to put herself through it again after what they did to her, I hope the good folks of that area give her their vote

    430. Cubby says:

      Johnson continues his attack on the Parliament in Westminster and adds to that with an attack on the Parliament in Holyrood. Where will this all lead – stoking up the hatred of some people for these Parliaments.

      The only good thing that can be said is that at least he hasn’t organised for the parliament to be burned to the ground as Hitler did. Hitler got his brown shirts to burn it down not long after becoming Chancellor of Germany and blamed it on the Communists thus giving him a reason to create the first concentration camps in Germany. Let’s hope we have a better future than that – one way to guarantee that is to:

      GET SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE DONE

      GET YOURSELF TO EDINBURGH ON SATURDAY

      IGNORE THE DOOM AND GLOOM OF THE PHONEY INDEPENDENCE SUPPORTERS

    431. Effijy says:

      What are you up to Today Rev?
      I know you are busy on something big.

      The Rev must be Revving the engine for the last step in the Independence Revolution.

    432. Naina Tal says:

      Lenny Hartley at 10:38 a.m.
      Of course Greene King better known as owners of Belhaven who used to make a decent pint and have good pubs before being taken over.

    433. Dr Jim says:

      Liberal Democrat MP Jamie Stone in a live interview when asked if he would support Corbyn as temporary interim leader or no deal Brexit said “No deal Brexit every time”

      Liberal Democrats exposed once again as Tories

      I keep saying it, if Liberal Democrats were animals they’d be ticks waiting to drop onto the backs of other animals to suck out their life force and give them Lymes disease into the bargain, political parties usually have some form of ideology or direction, Liberal Democrats only exist to suck

    434. Dr Jim says:

      @Cubby

      Actually it was the British during the Boer war who invented concentration camps and the scorched earth policy, Field Mrshall Herbert Kitchener, although if you attempt to verify it you find most of the online information altered from what it used to be
      the Nazis just admired the concept and borrowed it

    435. jeff says:

      HYFUD still farting away?

    436. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Dr Jim, Jamie Stone was elected as one of the few FibDem non-paper candidates in GE 2017.

      Their was a very aggressive campaign attacking SNP over Highland SNHS (Caithness Maternity provision etc.) despite Health Board being led by an ex-FibDem Councillor who presided over the subsequent bullying culture.

      Electorate used as collateral damage by BritNat Health Board and Council then these failings laid at the door of the SNP despite Health being a Holyrood matter not. Westminster one.

      All amplified by the BritNat BBC and dead tree press like ‘The Neofascist Voice of the North’ (aka The P&J)

      He has also been a wee bit ‘insensitive to the Jewish community’

      https://web.archive.org/web/20191003103333/https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15541833.scottish-libdem-mp-jamie-stone-apologises-for-insensitive-holocaust-remark/

    437. North chiel says:

      Spot on the money “Jockanese wind talker @ 1135 a.m.” The maternity provision” issue in Caithness was a significant issue at the GE and the SNP government got blamed by the “ Fib dems” when the real bogeyman was the Centralist agenda of Highland Health board who control the purse strings.

    438. Sinky says:

      Ian Blackford nailing Boris in House of Commons.

      Todays Edinburgh Evening News is more like a Ian Murray election campaign leaflet with three major articles.

    439. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@11.19am

      You are of course correct and I was aware of that. My words are obviously open to more than one interpretation. I did not mean to create the impression that they were the first EVER concentration camps but the first in Germany. I believe I am correct in that statement but if I am wrong happy for someone to put the record straight.

      I have told many people about Britain inventing concentration camps who were unaware of that and found many just would not believe it. Luckily there are some books that can be refered to. So many people in the UK have this mindset that the Great British Empire was a force for good in the world. It was great in terms of size nothing else.

    440. Bob Mack says:

      @Jokanese Wind Talker,

      Believe me when I tell you that Health Boards are going to be sorted out pretty soon. They have been running a political agenda contrary to the expectation of the Scottish government.

      There are many “enemies within” shall we say .

    441. Cubby says:

      BJohnson says yesterday at the Tory conference that his mother voted to leave the EU. He is such a liar I wouldn’t even put it past him to use his own mother in a lie. His father in the audience was caught on camera saying “I didn’t know that”.

      You can’t trust any Britnat.

      Britnats lie and they lie all the time about nearly everything. There is a new King liar in town the blonde hair populist PM.

    442. Cubby says:

      Blackford tells Johnson a few home truths in the Hof Commons but how much of it will be shown on Reporting Scotland, the Nine ( I guess there must be some people who watch this) and Stv news etc etc

      He points out that Johnsons deal allows for the consent of N. Ireland every four years but where is the consent of Scotland for this deal or any Brexit.

      He points out N. Ireland stays in the single market in his deal but Scotland is once again ignored.

      Ignorant shouts and braying noises from the lying Britnats like the FUD who seem to think they own Scotland and think colonialism is just dandy. Their heads are still in the Victorian era.

    443. Jack Murphy says:

      Re a comment further up this Thread.

      Yes Michelle Thomson has taken many knocks in the past and has gone through ‘BLANK’ and back .

      The muck thrown at her was vile,pernicious and unjustified.

      I wish her every success in East Lothian.

      The National newspaper:
      https://tinyurl.com/yycts4p2

    444. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      That is great news. I can think of Grampian and folk like Dame Ann Begg (ex BLiS MP who campaigned for No with the National Front in IndyRef 1) @Bob Mack says at 12:03 pm

    445. dakk says:

      HYUFD says:
      2 October, 2019 at 11:59 pm
      ‘I see the pro democracy protestors of Hong Kong have been waving Union Jacks and singing ‘God Save the Queen’ outside the British consulate’

      Every state has it’s bad apples.

      There happen to be quite a few of your own shittish britizens who wave the black flag of ISIL and indeed fight under their banner.

    446. Ken500 says:

      Everything comes to those who wait. Patience is a virtue. Forget the prima donnas. Like Johnston. The entitlement, randoms.

    447. Ken500 says:

      The Opium wars. Hong Kong tax haven caused a bit of disruption. UK influence. Stop over for lots of goods. Mainly a massive container plant. Interesting. Massive harbour. Built up. Not much space.

    448. Dr Jim says:

      Following FMQs BBCs Bryan Taylor stammers and struggles to avoid saying Jackson Carlaw is rubber ducked is a fraud a liar and a tool of Boris Johnson

      There you are Bryan it wasn’t that hard now was it

      Well it would be for the BBC to articulate these things because who do they support now that they don’t have their instructions carried out by Ruth Davidson anymore

      BBC Scotland are going to struggle now to find somebody credible in any of the opposition parties to get behind to fight the terrible SNP, they might have to resort to Willie Rennie for Gods Sake

    449. Cubby says:

      FM questions

      Have a look at Truthless Davidson’s face sitting behind Carlaw. Absolutely tripping her. She knows the game is up. The face of someone thinking all my hard work over the last 8 years ruined by that arse Johnson. She’ll be out of politics at the next Scot parliament election.

      Cracking line by Sturgeon about Carllaw ” no wonder his colleagues want to get rid of him.” At least labour wait until their leader is elected. “Jackson Carllaw is about to be ousted before he is even elected.”

    450. Ken500 says:

      Whisky price could rise in the US. It will be more expensive. The whisky drinkers will not be pleased. Especially the 10% of voters of Scottish descent who can throw an election. 23Million? Trump lost by 3million. D’Hond’t.

      1 in 6 US voters are of Jewish decent. 40million?

      Netanyahu in trouble. Up on corruption charges. Lost election. Can’t form a Gov. .Another election looming, (3rd) Reclining economy. A US military base.

    451. Cubby says:

      The British politicians in the Scottish parliament are treated with the respect they deserve by their masters in London. They treat them with no respect because that is what they deserve. They are a bunch of grovelling diddies who deserve no respect in Scotland because they sure as hell don’t get any from London.

      SHUT UP AND DO AS YOU ARE TOLD

      that should be the campaigning slogan of British Labour in Scotland, English Conservatives in Scotland and British Lib Dems in Scotland.

    452. Bob Mack says:

      The utter stupidity of the majority of voting English in England never fails to amaze me.

      They have fallen once again for the populist dogma. What is so funny about that is that we have “elite”factions in
      Wesminster with their multii billionaire backers calling for the overthrow of the “other”e!ite whoever they may be.

      It goes to prove there is no depths to stupidity people cannot attain.

    453. Ken500 says:

      Edward 1 died at Alnwick. Failed in his campaign. Tried to imposed taxes and conscription on Scotland to pay for his wars in France. Normandy. Failed in every sense. Bruce emerged.

      Scotland always taxed to pay for Westminster’s illegal wars. Financial fraud and tax evasion. Losing Scotland £Billions/Trillions. Years of deceit and secrecy. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years. Appalling.

    454. Dr Jim says:

      This very afternoon the Tory branch party in Scotland are meeting to discuss the removal of Jackson Carlaw as quickly as possible to elect a new leader, the meeting has been arranged by *You guessed it * Murdo Fraser and Adam Tomkins

      There will be blood

    455. Graeme says:

      Ken500 says:
      3 October, 2019 at 1:25 pm

      Edward 1 died at Alnwick. Failed in his campaign. Tried to imposed taxes and conscription on Scotland to pay for his wars in France. Normandy. Failed in every sense. Bruce emerged.

      I could be wrong Ken but I think he died at Burgh on Sands on the Solway Firth

    456. jeff says:

      Ken500 says:
      3 October, 2019 at 1:25 pm
      “Edward 1 died at Alnwick”

      Hi Ken. Their king Edward I actually died on the southern banks of the Solway Firth near Carlisle.

    457. dadsarmy says:

      How many Tory leaders does it take to screw a joke?

    458. Cubby says:

      Please let the English Conservative Party in Scotland new leader be Annie Wells or crabbit face Ballantyne . Truth be told any of them are likely to be rubbish. The only question will be will the new leader be worse than Leonard.



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