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At the margins

Posted on November 01, 2019 by

Alert readers will recall that among the many tirades of abuse this site has recently been subjected to for suggesting the idea of a 2021 Holyrood list party to compete for seats currently won by Unionists, one of the main themes was “We already have a reliable pro-indy alternative to the SNP in the form of the Scottish Greens”.

Now, that argument misses the point by the hugest distance imaginable, but let’s not get into it here, because something more important is happening much sooner.

As we approach a 2019 Westminster general election in which the number of pro-indy MPs returned could be absolutely crucial, we were alerted to the number of candidates the Scottish Greens are intending to stand this coming December.

So it’s perhaps worth considering the possible consequences.

So far the party has announced candidates for 16 of the 59 seats. More may follow. The news was announced by the Green-friendly The National a few days ago with a strikingly positive spin:

The paper declared that the Greens were only going to stand against the Tories in one seat, supposedly maximising the SNP’s chances of capturing it. The seat in question, Stirling, is certainly a vulnerable one, with unpleasant Tory MP Stephen Kerr defending a majority of just 148.

Readers may observe that in such circumstances, a Green candidate could in fact easily make all the difference between the SNP taking the seat or not, and leaving Kerr – a Mormon opposed to equal marriage – in place for another five years, an outcome that it might seem surprising the super-duper-LGBT Greens were willing to risk.

(The National made particular play of the fact that the Greens wouldn’t be standing against Douglas Ross in Moray, but Ross is defending a majority of over 4,000 and the Greens didn’t fight the seat in 2017. The only time they ever contested Moray they got just 1,345 votes.)

But wait. If the Greens are standing in 16 seats and only one of them is Tory-held, who are they competing against in the other 15?

The paper only actually identifies 15 seats in total including Stirling, not 16. let’s have a look at their list.

DUNFERMLINE AND WEST FIFE
Held by: SNP
Majority: 844 (down from 10,352)
Green candidate in 2017: No, but got 1195 votes in 2015

EAST KILBRIDE, STRATHAVEN AND LESMAHAGOW
Held by: SNP
Majority: 3866 (down from 16,527)
Green candidate last time: No, but got 1003 votes in 2010.

EDINBURGH EAST
Held by: SNP
Majority: 3425 (down from 9106)
Green candidate last time: No, but got 2809 votes in 2015

EDINBURGH NORTH AND LEITH
Held by: SNP
Majority: 1625 (down from 5597)
Green candidate last time: Yes, 1727 votes.
(Also got 3140 votes in 2015)

EDINBURGH SOUTH
Held by: Labour
Majority: 15,514
Green candidate last time: No, but got 2090 votes in 2015

EDINBURGH SOUTH WEST
Held by: SNP
Majority 1097 (down from 8135)
Green candidate last time: No, but got 1965 votes in 2015

FALKIRK
Held by: SNP
Majority: 4923 (down from 19,701)
Green candidate last time: Yes (908 votes)

GLASGOW CENTRAL
Held by: SNP
Majority: 2267 (down from 7662)
Green candidate last time: No, but got 1559 votes in 2015

GLASGOW NORTH
Held by: SNP
Majority: 1060 (down from 9295)
Green candidate last time: Yes (3251 votes)

GLASGOW SOUTH
Held by: SNP
Majority: 2027 (down from 12,269)
Green candidate last time: No, but got 1431 in 2015.

KIRKCALDY AND COWDENBEATH
Held by: Labour
Majority: 259
Green candidate last time: No

LINLITHGOW AND EAST FALKIRK
Held by: SNP
Majority: 2919 (down from 12,934)
Green candidate last time: No

LIVINGSTON
Held by: SNP
Majority: 3878 (down from 16,843)
Green candidate last time: No

STIRLING
Held by: Con
Majority: 148
Green candidate last time: No, but got 1606 votes in 2015.

WEST DUNBARTONSHIRE
Held by: SNP
Majority: 2288 (down from 14,171)
Green candidate last time: No

We’re told, but haven’t yet been able to confirm, that the 16th seat a Green candidate has been selected for is Perth And North Perthshire:

PERTH AND NORTH PERTHSHIRE

Held by: SNP
Majority: 21 (down from 9641)
Green candidate last time: No, but got 1146 votes in 2015.

Of those 16 seats, the Greens would be going up against an SNP incumbent in 13. All are seats in which the SNP’s majority was slashed heavily in 2017, and only two of the seats had Green candidates that year, so most of the challenges will be new.

In nine of the seats – Dunfermline, Edinburgh East, Edinburgh North, Edinburgh South West, Glasgow Central, Glasgow South, Kirkcaldy, Perth and Stirling – it looks highly likely that a Green candidate could make the difference between the SNP taking the seat and not. In several cases the Greens stood candidates in 2015 whose votes, if repeated in 2019, would be enough to more than wipe out the SNP’s majority in 2017.

Among the most vulnerable are Pete Wishart in Perth & NP (majority of just 21 and a Green 2015 vote of 1100), Joanna Cherry in Edinburgh SW (majority barely 1000, Green 2015 vote of over 2000), Deidre Brock in Edinburgh N&L (majority 1625, Green 2015 vote 3100) and Douglas Chapman (majority 844, Green 2015 vote 1200), three of whom would lose their seats to Labour with Wishart’s going Tory.

Brock is especially vulnerable as EN&L is a three-way SNP-Lab-Con marginal highly susceptible to tactical voting – the Tories were within 2000 of Labour in 2017. And we suspect that the Greens would view the ousting of gender-critical feminist Cherry with unmixed delight, as would the SNP leadership.

She currently faces a Labour candidate who today posted an image depicting herself spraying bleach in Cherry’s face, accompanied by a tears-of-laughter emoji – and who ironically got her candidateship through the Jo Cox leadership programme.

(Hoole is a GMB union rep from Shepton Mallet, just a few miles down the road from Bath. Maybe it’s something in the Somerset air that makes people vile, eh?)

Tommy Sheppard in Edinburgh East (whose majority is just 600 more than the 2015 Green candidate got) and Alison Thewliss in Glasgow Central (with a majority only 700 higher than the 2015 Green vote) will also be looking over their shoulders especially nervously at the “allies” who could put their chances in jeopardy and let two more Labour MPs in.

The Greens, of course, are perfectly entitled to stand in any constituencies they like. But they have absolutely no chance whatever of winning any of them (their strongest performance in either 2015 or 2017 was in Glasgow North, where Patrick Harvie still got less than 10% of the vote), so it’d be entirely a vanity exercise and could result in serious damage to the number of pro-indy MPs returned with a mandate to demand a second independence referendum.

The SNP currently have 35 MPs, which is 59% of the Scottish total. If they were to lose just six – a highly plausible scenario on the numbers above – and make no gains they’d drop to 29, which critically would be less than half.

The WORST-case scenario for a Wings party in any reasonable fact-based model was a net pro-indy loss of ONE seat, making no difference to any indy majority. And the circumstances for even that outcome were vanishingly unlikely. In all other feasible outcomes there was either no difference or a significant net pro-indy gain.

The Scottish Greens contesting 16 (or more) seats next month, however, could all too easily turn a majority of pro-indy MPs at Westminster into a minority, both destroying any sort of moral mandate and extinguishing any lingering chance of holding leverage over a second indyref. And all for NO possible gain.

Supporters of independence – and especially those citing the Greens as an argument against a Wings party – might find themselves with cause to ponder who their friends and enemies really are.

.

[EDIT 7.35pm: now confirmed as “more than 20” seats.]

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    1. 01 11 19 13:56

      At the margins | speymouth

    2. 01 11 19 19:11

      The Crossroads to Independence | A Wilderness of Peace

    131 to “At the margins”

    1. alasdair galloway says:

      You know Rev Campbell, I have just finished listening to Farage on the BBC News Channel – launching his manifesto – and he was making exactly the same argument about his party and the Tories. Are we not better than this?
      If you are going to make that case, it seems to me a poorer one based on the interests of the SNP (sounds like Peter Bell to me). Is a better case not based on how best to take independence forward and how the parties can all work together for that end rather than mere political advantage.

    2. Sharny Dubs says:

      Tin foil hat on, it occurred the GE was called (obviously not the main reason, but it fits) sharpish to ensure a Wings threat to list sets did not have time to be mounted.

    3. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Is a better case not based on how best to take independence forward and how the parties can all work together for that end rather than mere political advantage.”

      Fucking hell. The best way to take independence forward is not to put a whole bunch of SNP seats at risk for no possible benefit.

    4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “it occurred the GE was called (obviously not the main reason, but it fits) sharpish to ensure a Wings threat to list sets did not have time to be mounted.”

      This is a Westminster election. There are no list seats.

    5. Doug Bryce says:

      Basically it is SNP vs Tory / Labour / Lib Dem in Scotland.

      The electoral system makes anything else a wasted vote.
      Vote for the Greens lets a unionist party in.

    6. Camy says:

      I suspect that they don’t have a list vote in a UK wide general election – safe to put the foil back into the drawer IMO

    7. Colin Dunn says:

      alasdair galloway says:
      “Is a better case not based on how best to take independence forward and how the parties can all work together for that end rather than mere political advantage.”

      Simple undeniable fact is that without as many SNP MPs as possible in this GE there will be no ‘how best to take independence forward’ at all. None. Zero.

    8. Neil Mackenzie says:

      It is a stark choice in Scotland. Any vote, here, that isn’t for a specific SNP candidate is either effectively or actually a vote for England’s Tories. That’s never been more true in a UK General Election than it is, today.

      People don’t realise how precarious SNP representation is in many areas. My own Westminster constituency is currently an SNP constituency. Despite that, despite the fact that there must be a great many SNP voters in this area, this same postcode has 3 Tory, 3 Labour, 2 Green and ZERO SNP representation in Holyrood. It’s knife edge.

    9. Mist001 says:

      The Greens are as much entitled to field candidates as any other party. They don’t care if they split the vote or harm the Indy cause and why should they? They have their own agenda to take care of.

      The message that HAS to be made loud and clear to everyone is JUST vote SNP. Tactical voting and all this stuff is mainly an English matter. The message has to be that in Scotland, vote SNP.

      It’s a very simple message but might be the most difficult one to convey.

    10. cynicalHighlander says:

      Voting Green in the coming election is a vote for a unionist.

    11. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Yes, there is some irony here. The SNP have no right to a monopoly, but it is well said that politics is the art of the possible. Vanity candidates at the present juncture are highly unhelpful, and no more so than in an FPTP WM constituency election.

      What the Greens (and The National) appear to wantonly ignore is if we get another “Ruth Davidson” result that knocks out a great MP like Cherry, there will be all hell to pay afterward.

      We can only hope that in a reinvigorated SNP election campaign with independence at the forefront, most of those seemingly narrow margins will turn out to be illusory, as voters themselves realise the crucial issues at stake. (Messrs. Wishart and Gethins have every right to be worried, though, but nothing new there.)

    12. Terry says:

      Disgusted at the greens. They can’t be that stupid to not know the damage they are causing. Serves them right if they lose members over this.

      Snp for this one. And if lack of Indy action after this? Then Wings party takes to the air.

    13. dadsarmy says:

      Well you know what they say – the Greens are their own friends.

    14. Bob Mack says:

      Greens are ambivelent about Indy.It is not their priority.

      It is however mine, and should be for every Indy supporter,

      Vote SNP only.

    15. Cath says:

      There is also a fair contingent of SNP members in Joanna Cherry’s seat who are actively campaigning to have her deselected. Wonder what they’ll be doing in the campaigning for that seat? There are a fair chunk of “pro-indy” people who are absolutely not pro indy, or at least for whom it’s far down their priority list.

    16. Martyman says:

      If they are contesting Edin SW, and jeopardising Joanna Cherry, I’ll be f&$king furious.

    17. Artyhetty says:

      Crikey. The Greens, can’t be trusted, voted to scrap the OBFA, didn’t want the new Forth Road bridge built, ( I bet lots of ’em use it quite happily, they should be using dingy’s to get across!) and now they have huge ideas above their station thinking they have a hope in hells chance of filling some seats at Westminster?

      They would actually risk having red Tory and Tory/yellow Tories MP’s in Scotland? Wow, way to go Greens! Well done.

      Woe betide they lose seats for the SNP in Scotland, they will never be forgiven, will they?

      I was thinking, this election will be used to try to diminish the SNP, and we all know who has plenty of £’s and $’s to help that long don’t we. Christ nevermind gaining seats we could lose seats, and the Greens, a dulpicitous lot, will help that along, disgusting.

    18. John says:

      I wonder where the funding is coming from for these Green candidates?

    19. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Mist001 @ 12:30,

      Actually, tactical voting is just as important here. Especially in the context of the headline article. This election is a two-way street. We have to politely ask pro-indy Greens to forfeit their natural allegiance and lend their vote to the SNP, against their own party’s immediate interest.

      For the long-term greater good of their own politics, of course, since only in an independent Scotland can their own brand and policies flourish.

      But it’s still a big ask, and an important one. Let’s not ignore or dismiss that.

    20. Normski says:

      Alasdair galloway says:

      “…how the parties can all work together…”

      Getting in the way and putting a spanner in the works is not a good of example of working together.

    21. alasdair galloway says:

      @ColinDunn. and @ Rev
      Of course the only realistic option is to maximise the number of SNP MPs. To argue otherwise is nonsense on stilts. The issue is how the SNP manage their domination of the independence movement. Let’s not forget, without the Greens there would be no indy majority at Holyrood. They are an autonomous political party which has a right to stand candidates wherever they want. But two things. First of all, nominations wont close – or cannot be withdrawn – till 14/11, so there is still two weeks to work this out. For instance for the SNP to approach the Greens for a deal – to get certain concessions to stand down at least some of their candidates (something they wouldn’t mind doing because they don’t have money coming out of both ears). But to do that they need something from the SNP, and its here that the SNP regularly hack me off. They very often, it seems to me, approach the rest of the independence movement as though they don’t matter or very definitely are subsidiary to the SNP, which they probably are, but it’s still not a good idea – if you value the independence movement as a real movement and not just a single political party – to stick it to them. In short the SNP’s domination does not justify them making demands of others – independence is about more than the SNP.

    22. kapelmeister says:

      O/T

      Stephen Gethins gets a campaign boost as former Lib Dem Provost of Fife Council Frances Melville says she will be voting for him.

      There’s a piece of news for the unlimitedly ambitious Swinson.

    23. admiral says:

      I’ve never trusted the Greens in their so called support of independence. I remember they stood a candidate in Edinburgh Central (at the time an SNP seat) and allowed Ruth Davidson to win the constituency.

      And to seek to get rid of Joanna Cherry, one of the best and most articulate proponents of independence and a real thorn in the side of law breaking Johnson, is the height of folly.

    24. Colin Alexander says:

      There is a clear collaboration between the forces of the Empire. They are doing the sensible thing by tacit cooperation to stop the indy candidates winning.

      The Indy movement is such a F***ing shambles under the SNP’s lack of leadership (and Greens as the indy allies) that YES forces are fighting each other.

      Both the SNP and Greens need a good kick up the airse to put aside their differences and put Scotland first.

    25. Bob Mack says:

      @A!isdzir Galloway,

      From your own post “The only realistic option” is the SNP.

      Voting other than SNP for Indy is nothing but self indulgent at this time given Patrick Harvey has openly stafed Indy was not a priority.

    26. Colin Alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      Stopping Brexit is the SNP priority. They’ve been saying so for the last three years.

    27. Sharny Dubs says:

      Ah! Westminster election no list seats!

      Duh,

      Sorry guys!!

    28. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin A!exander,

      I was referfing of course to the best interests of supporters of Indy,not of political partys.

    29. Breeks says:


      Cath says:
      1 November, 2019 at 12:37 pm
      There is also a fair contingent of SNP members in Joanna Cherry’s seat who are actively campaigning to have her deselected…

      That, to me is utterly unfathomable.

      I cannot think of any member of any party, in my living memory, who has been so singularly effective in realising her objectives. If you examine 300 years of UK “unwritten” Constitution, you will find very few, if any, Scottish MP’s forcing the UK Government into codifying that unwritten constitution into permanent binding protocol.

      My only criticism of Joanna is that I’d have gone for the jugular; Scotland revoking Article 50 unilaterally, and making sure the World understood that Westminster didn’t write new law to accommodate unlawful prorogation, it was actually forced to do it by it’s ‘superior’, – Scot’s Law and Scottish Constitution.

      The funniest quip I saw, I think it was on Twitter, went something like “Members on the Government Front Bench twitched nervously in their seats as Ms Cherry fired up her laser…”

      Deselect her??? I would rather deselect the rest, and build my own dream team from scratch, built around Joanna Cherry and her laser.

    30. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      alasdair galloway @ 12:46,

      Your sentiment is somewhat similar to mine @ 12:43, but we also have to recognise that there is no constituency in which the Greens could possibly benefit from an SNP withdrawal, and it’s not the business of the SNP to “pinch” the Green agenda. Neither party could possibly accept that.

      A formal pact is disallowed by the electoral rules. The best that could be hoped for is that the Greens copy the tactic of the BritNat Coalition, where eg. the Tories and Labour field dummy candidates to give the FibDems a free run to challenge the SNP.

      The whole Environment Emergency movement represents a definite danger to independence, not least because of its importance and appeal to the righteous young. It poses a potential diversion far more challenging than the (now-faded) “JC the Saviour” one.

      We just have to urge folk to put first things first, and that is far more than a mere matter of SNP arrogance. A rightwing Tory UKOK will never deliver any kind of Green agenda.

    31. starlaw says:

      This is a vital GE for Scotland, people will not be interested in the green party its going to be SNP V The Unionist parties. If the Green party wish to lose money . . they will by putting up candidates in this GE

    32. panda paws says:

      I don’t want any of the SNP seats to be lost, for indy rather than party political reasons, but Thewliss and Sheppard are particularly good and I’ll be spitting chips if Joanna Cherry is not returned. She has been a consistent thorn in the Tories side and would be a HUGE loss. Are they really going to throw an excellent politician and a lesbian under a bus? Does the L in LBGT+ not count for anything these days?

    33. HandandShrimp says:

      It would be ironic if the Brexit Party stepped back to give Boris a clear run but the Greens scuppered the independence vote.

      The stupidity of politics is a constant source of amazement.

    34. Normski says:

      Colin Alexander says:

      “The Indy movement is such a F***ing shambles under the SNP’s lack of leadership (and Greens as the indy allies) that YES forces are fighting each other.”

      The problem with other parts of the Indy movement is that when you try to work with them, they whine that the SNP needs to take charge. As soon as the SNP do take charge of something (like a local event) they whine that the SNP are a bunch of control freaks.

    35. robertknight says:

      Kerr is my MP. If he gets back in due to votes going to the Greens, well, Lord help any Green Party candidate that comes knocking on my door in future.

    36. Colin Alexander says:

      The SNP could announce they won’t field 16 or so List candidates for Holyrood, but no asking for any favours, nudge nudge wink wink to the Greens.

    37. Bobp says:

      I agree with posters on here. Anything other than a vote for the snp is a vote for the union, and all the austerity and cutbacks that entails.

    38. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Well, another predictable round of empty whinging. Can we try to be more creative, please?

      Meanwhile, Trump endorses BoJo+Farrago, and we begin to see that the Leave project isn’t at all about “loss of our chains” but actually about the UK becoming a vassal state of the USA.

    39. Dan says:

      I think motorbike aside, I can pretty much guarantee I live a more environmentally friendly life than most Green voters.
      I grow most of my own veg, catch my own animals to eat, use minimal energy, recycle my own and other lazy fuckers’ waste, repair rather than replace items, clean my local community and rivers of discarded rubbish, beach clean whenever I visit the coast. etc etc.

      Yet I have never voted Green other than ranking them in Vote Till You Boak Single Transferable Vote Council Elections.
      There is just no way The Kingdom of Scotland can properly implement a range of environmentally sound policies whilst stuck in the union with The Kingdom of England.
      The democratic deficit of being outvoted 10 to 1 by our southern neighbours who have chosen a different trajectory from us, along with most influential powers being reserved to Westminster mean that environmental policies are being held back at the very time when we need to be forging ahead with them.

      I was searching for plastic recycling info this morning after noticing the staggering amount of larger plastic items such as car bumpers and patio chairs that were being dumped into general waste skips at my local recycling centres.
      I turned up the following article about Sweden which seems appropriate in putting forward ideas on where Scotland might progress towards in the future should we regain control of our destiny.

      https://sweden.se/nature/the-swedish-recycling-revolution

      Can the supposed Green Party not work out that sometimes a compromise is required if one wants to ultimately reach a position where they can have more influence in achieving their objectives.
      Indy should therefore be environmentally minded Scots first priority.

      If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem!

    40. alasdair galloway says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland, you say “A formal pact is disallowed by the electoral rules”, but this is what Farage has sought from Johnson (though I doubt he will get it). You are right the Greens are unlikely to win in any constituency – I don’t dispute that, but the core of my point is that the SNP should be more mindful of how they manage the smaller parties (and those of us of no party), though I accept without letting the tail wag the dog (ie both sides have a responsibility to manage their relationship constructively to take forward the outcome we all want).

    41. kapelmeister says:

      Vote SNP to have indy Scotland in the European Union.

      Vote Labour/Lib Dem to keep Scotland in the unequal union.

      Vote Tory to be the 51st state of the union.

    42. Bobp says:

      Alasdair galloway. 12.46pm ” independence is about more than the snp” . Agree, but only after independence.

    43. dadsarmy says:

      @alasdair galloway
      Alasdair, what on earth could the SNP give the Greens for Westminster? Practivally nobody in the Indy movement cares about what can be achieved at Westminster apart from getting rid of it. The letter from Nicolson in the previous thread won’t strike a chord with most of us for instancen when it talks about getting rid of Universal Credit. Why should we care when that’s gone along with Westminster with Independence.

      Many in the Indy movement tolerate the Greens because they support Independence. But many also tolerate the SNP for exactly the same reason.

      Neither party should put themselves, before Independence.

    44. Dr Jim says:

      Vote Green get Tory

      That’s what happened last time

    45. Mark Robertson says:

      A vote for SNP is a must for any decent future of Scotland !
      Lets save Scotland FIRST and then we can help save the planet !
      The vision should be simple ,lets get our independence and after that we can start voting for any other new parties that will morph or appear in a new Independent Scotland.
      Im a greenie but I understand that a vote for the greens is a waste of time if they are still being ruled by Westminster.A Westminster that doesn’t give a toss for Englands environment let alone Scotlands and most definitely not our planet !
      I am glad you brought this topic up Stu even if it does seem that you are starting to come across as acting in a self centered manner recently, however i do get your point and it is a good one that to have another indy party to pick up list seats But there is not much reason to start wasting your time and donation money to start scrutinizing and denoting the SNP or the Greens ,That is the Unionist Medias job and they have enough power and resources on thier side .
      Keep it Real Eveyone !

    46. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      alasdair galloway @ 13:24,

      It’s easier said than done, though. As Normski rightly points out @ 13:07, the SNP are typically damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

      (It just comes with the territory of being the dominant party in which all our disparate hopes and aspirations are necessarily invested, and is a situation that likely won’t be resolved until normal politics returns post-indy.)

    47. Bobp says:

      If the greens cause the snp to lose seats, the cry from the yoon press and politicians will be, there is no appetite for independence. So its got to be snp.

    48. Geordie says:

      If you want Scottish Independence vote SNP. End of.

    49. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Does the L in LBGT+ not count for anything these days?”

      Short answer: no.

    50. Ian Foulds says:

      Dad’s Army at 1.27pm

      Well said.

    51. Muscleguy says:

      I’m a habitual Green voter on the Holyrood List but I don’t see any point in voting Scottish Green in a GE. Even if they stood here in Dundee East.

      But I hope you stand Wings Party on 2021 so have at least one Yes party which hasn’t swallowed the woke kool-ade hook, line and sinker.

    52. Tatu3 says:

      In Scotland regardless of whether you would like to vote for Greens, Lib Dems, Labour, Tories if you WANT Scotland to be independent then you MUST vote SNP. It really is that simple.

    53. HandandShrimp says:

      Stu

      I thought it stood for Ladeeee

      ….

      I’ll get my coat…and flee the country

    54. Republicofscotland says:

      Yes but won’t Greens be taking votes away from the opposition other than the SNP as well? Which could bode well for the SNP in some of the thirteen seats.

      Also we all know the Greens are pro-indy, and okay they will back the SNP on indy issues at Holyrood in return for whatever they wanted at the time, which is to be expected in politics.

      However the main point is that the Greens are pro-indy is it not?

    55. Stuart MacKay says:

      All this tearing of hair, gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands is an utter waste of time and energy. The only course of action is getting votes for the SNP. Anything and everything else is a distraction.

    56. Glamaig says:

      I think all parties should stand and let the voters make their own mind up. They know all about tactical voting in FPTP.

      If you’re talking about electoral pacts not to stand it’s hypocritical to then complain about the Better Together parties colluding in for example NE Fife and Lochaber.

      The Brexit party are looking like standing and splitting the Tory vote, good luck to them.

    57. Confused says:

      the greens are not, never were, for independence; it was just a tagalong to a mish mash of cool opinions – self determination for small countries, ok, stick it in.

      as the possibility edges closer, they shy away from it.

      all they want is for scotland to be a kind of – brighton with heather and lochs, and this they seem to be getting as the SNP seems determined to turn itself into Greens Mk2

      – making a new country will be hard, a lot of boring shit, grind and in the face of nasty opposition; strategic decision making, setting up the economy, diplomatic relations, security arrangements – that’s all just hard, but without any brownie points to gather, not much virtue signalling; as long as the trannies are all right, that’s all we care about

      an old pal of mine said 20 years ago – “when fascism returns – it will paint itself GREEN” – I thought he was nuts, environment and all that, whits wrang wi it … and so the world turns and we have astroturfed psy ops like extinction rebellion and the turbo-aspis, Greta, all determined to blame the poor for the state of the world, and not its real cause, exploitative capitalism, the levers of which the rich control. You can market any idea at all – as long as you are “saving the planet”. I could go on.

      – fuck the greens. not to be trusted. ever.

    58. galamcennalath says:

      I’m fairly sure every single WM seat in Scotland is contest between the SNP and one of the Britnats’ parties.

      While the Greens are pro Indy, I have the feeling their voters are more Green than Indy.

      A Green candidate may take votes from any party, though I can’t imagine many folks swapping between Green and Tory! This makes SNP-Tory marginals a problem. In the case of SNP-Labour, I’m not so sure that.

      There’s a really really simple solution to the ‘problem’ of Greens … make sure SNP campaign gets support back to the heady days of 2015! Both activists and the party ‘central command’ need to do utmost. It is perfectly possible.

    59. OT I was listening to lbc just now and the anti democrat Fogarty she brouhght up anti semitism it seems if you are one of these people who think that to murder people and steal their land is wrong then you are anti Semitic you must not say a word or do anything to change this imagine if we had taken the same attitude with nazi Germany to do and say nothing about what they were doing to the Jews where would the Jewish people be today ??? Talk about double standards ???

    60. Another Union Dividend says:

      I wait to see if our fearless radio / TV/ press highlight the disgraceful tweet from the Labour candidate in South West Edinburgh.

      Will Ian Murray be given a two page spread in the Daily Mail to savage Ms Hoole in the same way as he attacked the SNP candidate in 2015 when his seat was in serious danger?

      Will Corbyn and Leonard or sanctimonious Lib Dems condemn nasty Yoons threatening female candidates on Twitter?

    61. mr thms says:

      What if Nicola Sturgeon believes Jeremy Corbyn would grant a Section 30 Order for a referendum on independence? It would be in Scotland and the SNP’s interest to help get him elected. A pact would be counter-productive. The Scottish Greens contesting marginal SNP seats where Scottish Labour result in Labour gains is clever. The SNP need to take seats from the Scottish Conservatives to help Corbyn. If it works the SNP could find themselves as the only party able to form a coalition government with Labour.

    62. Millsy says:

      Simple message , Nicola : Vote SNP for Independence !

      ALL other issues will be dealt with AFTERWARDS !

      Get this on the Billboards , pamphlets , Party Politicals etc…

    63. Stephane Sechaud says:

      I’ve never trusted the greens. They wax lyrical about saving the world but they are silent on the main cause of what threatens that world: capitalism.

    64. Scott says:

      Below is part of a quote from a certain person who is a regular in the P&J always downing the SNP what he is really saying vote tactically to stop the SNP and let a Tory in.They must be really afraid.I see a former Lab/Lib donar is giving Ross Thomson £5K to fight the election that is someone who now resides in Jersey.

      If Unionists do not vote sensibly we can look forward to five more years Ian Blackford and co.

    65. Heart of Galloway says:

      The Greens have decided to stand aside to give the SNP a clear run against Jackass and Fluffy. I welcome that very much.

      Personally if I were the Scottish Greens I would not have gone anywhere near the GE given the extremity of the hour.

      And in doing so would have said why – and with an eye on the future urged every independence supporter to get behind the SNP.

      Sometimes you have to keep your powder dry to earn greater rewards further down the line.

      I don’t know if the present situation will change – but it it important to remember that the decision to stand candidates is down the regional party, not Patrick Harvie.

      In any case, I hope this is the last time an independence supporting party is in the dock Stu.

      Our unionist adversaries and their media jackals are having a field day at the moment. Lies, distortions, omissions and blatant bias.

      Where are you Stu?

    66. Footsoldier says:

      No matter your politics, if you want independence it has to be be vote SNP.

    67. Joe says:

      The left always eats itself. The trouble is the misery and damage it causes when it does. Theres always one more stage of radical fkwittery to achieve. Theres always a former ally no longer committed enough. The circus of wokeness and fake pro EU indy BS has put Scottish independence back years. This is why people with experience absolutely hate socialists and pseudo socialists

    68. John Wood says:

      I support independence but I am a Green. Green MSPs have kept the SNP in power in Holyrood. Why should Greens be treated with such disrespect? If the SNP don’t want Greens standing against them how about making a deal and getting some Green policies into their manifesto instead of arrogantly demanding everyone stand aside to give them a clear run? It’s about time the SNP recognised that, importantas independence is, there is also a climate emergency. Let’s see some action on that.

    69. katherine hamilton says:

      At times I think folks are overthinking this election already. I want this. I want that. The SNP must do this or I’m off. Etc etc.

      This is the time. Now. Not 2020 or 2021. Now. We absolutely must cream this election. No ifs, no buts and certainly no Greens.

      As for you, Mr Campbell, don’t even think of sleeping for 6 weeks! We need you now like never before, sir.

      The campaign for our independence has started again in earnest. Phony war is over.

      Aux armes, brothers and sisters.

      Hold whatever you want to hold, but vote SNP. Pretty please.

    70. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      mr thms @ 14:36:

      The Scottish Greens contesting marginal SNP seats where Scottish Labour result in Labour gains is clever.

      “Clever” for whom? If you really mean what you seem to mean here, this is the dumbest piece of pseudo-analysis I’ve read in quite a while.

      Labour is not be taken as any kind of “ally”, and the stronger in Scotland they are, the trickier to deal with. They would keep us hanging on at their convenience then dump us at the earliest opportunity when our usefulness to them was over, just like before. Co-operate at arms length within a UK context if we must, but the more of them there are and the less of the SNP, the harder that will be to manage properly in our best interest.

      The fastest way to get independence is for NorthBritLab to be totally pushed aside once and for all, just like the FibDems, so that people don’t have any false choices punted to high heaven in the media to distract them, futile “options” that – as intended – go absolutely nowhere.

    71. admiral says:

      @ John Wood.

      John – the UK GE will make no difference to green policies, as the SNP cannot form a UK government. Indeed, current environmental standards are at risk, if Johnson manages to secure a majority, because the Tories will need to sell us down the river to get Trump to agree to a trade deal.

      So it is imperative that the progressive vote in constituencies already held by the SNP is not split to allow one of the Yoon parties to win.

      I agree that where the SNP can make a difference – by forming the next Scottish Government – that tackling the climate emergency should be one of the priorities.

    72. Clapper57 says:

      The Green party DARN SARF stood aside to allow the Lib Dems to win in August in the Tory held seat of Brecon and Radnorshire.

      Jo Swinson said :

      “”Plaid Cymru and The GREEN PARTY have taken a brave and principled decision to ‘PUT THE NEEDS OF THE COUNTRY AHEAD’ of their party political interest.

      “I am incredibly grateful that they have given us the BEST CHANCE of electing Jane Dodds to Parliament and ADDING another PRO-REMAIN MP to the growing number who are campaigning for a People’s Vote.

      “It is VITAL that PRO-REMAIN parties CONTINUE to work TOGETHER where possible to give us the BEST CHANCE to stop Brexit”.

      Where as Patrick Harvie in KEY seats ( also noted as vulnerable seats for SNP a Pro REMAIN and INDY party) decides NAW I’M NO GONNA DAE THAT….

      So will be interesting to see how the ‘Remain Alliance’ plays out darn sarf and if Green party ‘step aside’ once again for Lib Dems or another individual (ex Tory now independent) to ‘take’ the seat….Jo Swinson in above quote stated “It is VITAL that PRO-REMAIN parties continue to work together, where possible, to give US the BEST chance to stop Brexit” …

      As some others have said on here …yes anyone can CHOOSE to stand a candidate in a seat…however if that same party CHOOSING to do that is also CHOOSING to stand aside to allow a Unionist party candidate and supposed REMAIN party to gain a seat darn sarf…BUT…..here in Scotland that same party CHOOSES to do the opposite by CHOOSING to field candidates against another REMAIN party who has “BEST chance to stop Brexit” for Scotland…AND..get Independence Referendum…then one does begin to wonder…WTAF and also where do their Remain and Independence priorities lie… No?

      However , should they, in fielding candidates allow things to go ‘Tits Up’ in this election then they will reap what they have sown in the 2021 Holyrood election ….AND I think the WOS party would be a choice for many in their choice for the list vote…where as the Greens will be remembered as those who stood aside for Unionist parties darn sarf to gain seats in the GE of 2019 BUT failed to do the same for the SNP an Independence and REMAIN party in Scotland….it will be more than the climate that will heat up in Scotland….many a Indy voter will also be fair ‘bilin’…

      I think we need to monitor the ‘Remain alliance’ darn sarf..in particular The Green Party’s compliance/collusion with other parties and individuals ( Ex Tory MP’s now Independents )….perhaps the Scottish Green party in Scotland could STAND ASIDE for the Lib Dems in Scottish seats….you know what with the Lib Dems being the mostest most remain party…like EVER…in the whole UK and like the WORLD und UNIVERSE…Hmm.

    73. Simon Curran says:

      ‘Green’ as in totally and utterly naive. Realistically Green voters have much more of a chance to address environmental issues in an independent Scotland than fettered to Boris Britain. Standing candidates v the SNP can only be understood as a desire to stay in the union, leave the EU and do as little as possible about the Green issues they profess to care about.

    74. Fergus Green says:

      I would like to vote Green, but I understand the importance of lending my vote to the SNP until we gain our independence. I also know I am not the only one thinking that way, but there are also many voters who choose not to lend their votes.

      The SNP could make things easier by putting in place firmer policies on land reform and climate change. If they were a bit less wishy-washy in these areas, they just might attract more Green voters.

      The Greens will get ny list vote in 2021 unless:
      1. We are not already independent
      2. There is no alternative indy list party in place (are you listening Wings?)

    75. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      John Wood @ 14:56,

      This is the same point as I made upthread, but from the other side of the table, so to speak. And an eminently reasonable one.

      But in the context of this present WM election, you are in danger of losing focus, I fear. It’s not the job of the SNP to steal the Greens’ clothing, is it? You would likely be the first to complain if they tried.

      Hard as it is, you have to weigh up the chance of the ScotGreens, however earnest, making any progress whatever on the climate emergency via a Tory BritNat London. An infinitesimal chance, frankly. And the more you scupper the chances of independence, the further you will obstruct and retard the very progress you desire. That’s the brutal truth of it.

      The best you can hope for in the present circumstances is “money in the bank of good will” within the pro-indy community that will stand your views in good stead for the future. Play it badly out of futile gesture politics instead and you only harm your own cause along with the rest of us.

      You and your fellow believers are surely smarter than that. Aren’t you…?

    76. Alibi says:

      Why the fuck would anyone want to get rid of Joanna Cherry? Is this some sort of narrow minded campaign by the woke brigade, your Shirley Anne Somerville crew? Cherry is a star and if we were to lose the likes of her, it would be a disaster.

      I wonder if some dark money is being used to fund opposition to the SNP. We are fighting a war of independence and the UK state isn’t going to fight fair.

      If the Greens harm the indy movement, they will never be forgiven – the Wings Party would become a necessity for 2021.

    77. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      This is the same point as I made upthread, but from the other side of the table, so to speak. And an eminently reasonable one.

      But in the context of this present WM election, you are in danger of losing focus, I fear. It’s not the job of the SNP to steal the Greens’ clothing, is it? You would likely be the first to complain if they tried.

      Hard as it is, you have to weigh up the chance of the ScotGreens, however earnest, making any progress whatever on the climate emergency via a Tory BritNat London. An infinitesimal chance, frankly. And the more you scupper the chances of independence, the more you will endanger the very progress you desire. That’s the brutal truth of it.

      The best you can hope for in the present circumstances is “money in the bank of good will” within the pro-indy community that will stand your views in good stead for the future. Play it badly out of futile gesture politics instead and you only harm your own cause along with the rest of us.

      You and your fellow believers are surely smarter than that. Aren’t you…?

    78. Jock Tamson says:

      I remember calculating where the greens second preference vote went whilst working for the SNP as an agent at the count for my local council by election. I recall it went about 60 % Labour 30% SNP and 10% Tory. We were quite surprised given the cross party support in Holyrood but all agreed that the Greens’ like the rest of the country’s second vote, was exclusively influenced by their position on Scottish Independence. My own experience was that many green voters in the ward were originally from England and were employed in professional jobs and had a soft spot for Labour.

    79. Terry says:

      Did they forget Kirsty bkackmans seat in Aberdeen north? https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/aberdeenshire-greens-general-election-fund

    80. Marcia says:

      Now that the campaign has started can I ask people on this site who are not members of any political party to do your own bit by gentle persuasion of friends, family and work colleagues. It does work as I have managed to move a few to consider Independence at our pensioners groups. Gentle persuasion rather than arguments.

    81. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Fergus Green @ 15:38,

      Focus, Fergus, please. This is 2019, not 2021. This is a WM election on reserved matters, not a Holyrood election on devolved ones. In due course the ScotGreens will be able to stand with their own policies on their own terms and be judged on their merits by the voters just like all other parties. That’s then. This is now.

      Everything in its own time, please.

    82. Dr Jim says:

      Greens are pro Greens like Liberal Democrats are pro Liberal Democrats, both coat tail parties who can’t be governments themselves but can disrupt others from doing so or form coalitions with others to wreck or assist if it’s to their advantage

      The Greens standing against SNP for a Westminster seat when they know they haven’t a chance of winning is a wrecking tactic, so why do it, unless somebody else is financing it, are the Greens that keen on throwing away their own money, I doubt it

      Even if the Greens thought they could win Westminster seats why would they want to given that if they say they support Independence there’s a referendum coming next year so why not leave it to the SNP MPs to do the negotiations rather than waste money, again unless it’s not their money

      None of this makes the Greens any less relevant in Holyrood so again why stand candidates against the party who can deliver the thing the Greens say they support

    83. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Harvey and The Greens know if they can’t get an MP elected now at peak Environmental Crisis, Greta Thumberg bounce they never will.

      They also know they will be severely punished for assisting the repeal of The OBF & TC Act.

      Wings Party at next Holyrood would pretty much annihilate them IMHO (which may not be a bad thing).

      Environmental Policy, like that of NATO Membership and EFTA vs EU Membership can wait until after Indy.

      Splitting the Indy vote and allowing BritNat MPs to get a majority returned sets back Indy which then sets back differential policies to Westminster’s.

      WokeNats will be to Independence what the Radical Left were to Labour in the 80s, the reason the Tories will rule for 15 years and decimate society.

    84. Dr Jim says:

      I like strawberry ice cream, Oh I don’t I’m a blackcurrent liker, out out out you evil strawberry likers

      They’ll be wanting to get rid of MPs because they don’t like their hairstyle next

    85. Clapper57 says:

      And so it begins :

      The Green Party stepping down for Labour Party in Calderdale…darn sarf…

      Yeah…Labour Party…party who have sat on the f**%%88 fence for the last 3 years plus…and who are still sitting with half of their collective arses on the fence for REMAIN….but now apparently THEY are part of THE Remain alliance…or so it would appear…

      So is this just to stop the Tories then ?…so, if THAT is the case then WTF is it all about in Scotland then Patrick…Hmm ?…asking for a friend…friend called Captain Caveman who is confused Dot Com…..and desperate to understand your strategy in Scotland Patrick..So who is the Baddies in Scotland Patrick ?

      Maybe we need Patrick Harvie to ‘step aside’ and allow Jonathan Bartley and Siân Berry to make decisions in Scotland….you know…since they are SOOOOOOOOOOO obliging darn sarf to other REMAIN parties…

    86. tartanfever says:

      I find this post uncomfortable.

      The Green Party can stand candidates anywhere they like. There is not talk of alliances between the SNP and the Greens or anyone else so all parties can list candidates as they see fit.

      Argue to vote SNP and not vote Green if you like, but questioning their decision to actually stand a candidate makes you look intolerable and does nothing for your party of choice. Concentrate your efforts in getting people to vote positively for your party.

      Your ire should be directed to the nonsense article in The National.

    87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jock Tamson @ 15:45,

      That all rings true. There are likely going to be disaffected Labourites (from anywhere) who can neither bring themselves to vote NorthBritLab again nor go the whole hog over to SNP, but who will instead be willing to transfer to the Greens or FibDems. In the places Stu considers above, that will tend to work to the advantage of the SNP, if not so dramatically as straight conversions.

      (That’s one of the blessings of STV elections; if analysed carefully they can give a lot of info on “undercurrents”.)

    88. James Boatman says:

      This is the usual disingenuous stuff.

      The fact is the average majority on SNP held seats is less than 2,500 and Falkirk is their 6th safest seat. To argue that the Greens should not stand because the SNP did not get their vote out in 2017 is not targeting the correct enemy – the enemy is SNP voter complacency.

      The Greens will die as a party in Scotland if they can’t stand in the most relevant elections – and that will not help anyone.

    89. Leslie Rutherford says:

      “We already have a reliable pro-indy alternative to the SNP in the form of the Scottish Greens”
      No we dont, trust the sneaky wee buggers at your peril

    90. Alabaman says:

      Thanks for stating the obvious Stew,
      As you indicate , the Greens have absolutely no chance of any of their candidates being elected, so it really become a “protest vote ” for them, but at the same time possibly greatly damaging the potential vote for the S.N.P. candidates.
      Do they care, have they thought this through?, maybe some should pressurise the attending Greens this Saturday.

    91. Alabaman says:

      James Boatman @14:27.
      The “Boatman” is down the Clyde, without a paddle with that last posting.

    92. RM says:

      The SNP and GREEN party’s should have a deal, the SNP are in power but the GREENS have plenty good ideas especially going into the 21st Century where things will have to change big time if global warming and pollution etc end up being a fact, if Scotland wants to be different get everyone involved to live a more natural life we have to start sometime, somewhere.

    93. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Clapper57 @ 16:00,

      To be strictly accurate, it’s a different Green Party down south.

      To their credit, the English and Scottish parties are genuinely distinct, no fake name-plating or branch-managing, so they won’t necessarily sync on anything.

      (And on our side of the border, the decision whether or not to stand a candidate lies solely in the hands of the local constituency association, apparently.)

    94. Del G says:

      In North Leith, Deidre Brock is opposed by Gordon Munro, a long-time Leith Resident and well-respected in the area, never mind Labour circles. That’s one reason why the margin was fairly tight last time round.
      A tweet regarding Joanna Cherry, is nowt to do with Leith Politics. ‘terf’ references are nasty but you’re applying it to the wrong politician. I think Joanna Cherry’s recent work in the Scottish courts will polarise the vote but may stand her in good stead. Especially if Frances Hoole is the opposition. She was co-chair of N Leith party, and I suspect that was an equal-opportunities appointment. Never heard of her working in the area.

    95. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      RM @ 17:02,

      Fine, then stand up policies in an election where it can count, and see what the voters think of it. That’s democracy 101.

      Unfortunately, WM FPTP elections are more like pseudo-democracy 0.001. Just one of the reasons to definitively escape them so the real thing can flourish among us again.

    96. anton de grandier says:

      The Greens are a disgrace and should be consigned to the electoral margins where they would be if it wasnt for Holyrood.While I understand the electoral reasons for SNP cosying up to Harvie et al they should be kept at MAXIMUM arms length.Utterly poisonous and totally out of touch with the vast majority of Scots.SNP adoption of many green policies re gender etc puts them at risk of following wee Pat down the primrose path.Win,win,win should be the SNP motto and the Greens can go back to where they belong-nowhere.

    97. Christopher says:

      I would’ve thought you’d have been clever enough to realise the point here. In 2017, the SNP experienced a swing towards Labour in all of these seats, they lost progressive voters they’d won in 2015, as people were voting for a Labour government. Many of these people could well have been frustrated by the SNP government after 12 years – fair enough. The Greens aren’t standing to take the SNP votes (those are pretty safe, core SNP voters are pretty loyal). They’re there to take votes from Labour and the Lib Dems, two give the angry progressive vote somewhere to go that isn’t unionist. That HELPS the SNP in these seats, not the other way around.

    98. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Excellent article Stuart,


      It bewilders me why the powers that be don’t listen to fact based evidence. There will, I fear, be a price to pay after 12th December 2019 if the SNP Westminster MP group follow the 2015-2017 trajectory. Given the abreaction and unpleasant comments on earlier threads, there’s is little merit pointing out the obvious. My worry is there will be 20 to 25 SNP MPs in the 2019-2024 Westminster Patliament. Assuming the Fixed Term Parliament Act is not repealed

      I think Alasdair Galloway’s post makes such good sense, it is worth “bumping” it so that other Wingers don’t miss what is a very useful contribution…

      ——-

      alasdair galloway says:
      1 November, 2019 at 12:46 pm

      Of course the only realistic option is to maximise the number of SNP MPs. To argue otherwise is nonsense on stilts. The issue is how the SNP manage their domination of the independence movement. Let’s not forget, without the Greens there would be no indy majority at Holyrood. They are an autonomous political party which has a right to stand candidates wherever they want. But two things. First of all, nominations wont close – or cannot be withdrawn – till 14/11, so there is still two weeks to work this out. For instance for the SNP to approach the Greens for a deal – to get certain concessions to stand down at least some of their candidates (something they wouldn’t mind doing because they don’t have money coming out of both ears). But to do that they need something from the SNP, and its here that the SNP regularly hack me off. They very often, it seems to me, approach the rest of the independence movement as though they don’t matter or very definitely are subsidiary to the SNP, which they probably are, but it’s still not a good idea – if you value the independence movement as a real movement and not just a single political party – to stick it to them. In short the SNP’s domination does not justify them making demands of others – independence is about more than the SNP.

    99. Fairliered says:

      I wonder whether the Green leadership have been reading all the anti SNP posts on this blog, and have thought there are enough indy supporters scunnered enough with the SNP to vote Green instead?

    100. Capella says:

      I don’t think the SNP lost many voters to Labour in 2017. My understanding is that SNP voters stayed at home. The transfer in votes which allowed 13 Tories to take seats came from Labour and Lib Dem who ran dummy candidates to allow the Tories a free run.

      That’s what happened in my constituency.

      The Greens don’t do strategy.

      My feeling is that the SNP voters who stayed at home last time will come out in droves this time to get out of this dreadful BREXIT UK death spiral. Many others will join them from unionist parties which are dying on their feet – mainly because they can’t help shooting themselves in both of them. The in-fighting over the EU will only get worse as the weeks roll on.

      The only way to “make it stop” is to cancel BREXIT and the only way to do that is through independence.

    101. ScottieDog says:

      Shit I’m going to be politically homeless at this rate. Stopped my membership of the SNP this year and switched to the greens but always with the intention of voting SNP at the GE and constituency vote in the SE.
      Can’t believe they are doing this. Oh well stern email on its way and probably save my monthly membership fee when they refuse to back down.

      What a mess.

      We need a new Indy party as a matter of urgency. 2021 is not far away (if we have a Scottish Parliament by then)

    102. AlbertaScot says:

      The Greenies and their evil dwarf leader are the biggest threat going to Scottish Independence.

      They’ve already forced the SNP into dump ass policies, wrecked their fiscally responsible budget and if they keep piling it on will get them de-elected.

      Better wake up and smell the herbal tea.

      Or the Nat dream will be done like a fish supper.

    103. ScottieDog says:

      I’d also say to folk who are relaxed about Indy, if you want a green new deal your best route is U.K. labour over the Scottish greens.

    104. Helen Yates says:

      Is there something in the water at Holyrood I wonder seeing as EVERY party sitting there appear to have lost the fucking plot. It’s getting I’m scared to wake up in the mornings ffs.

    105. Gordon Keane says:

      I am not a fan of Patrick Harvie’s Green group these days. And they seem to want to attack SNP over environment issues, which Scotland oftentimes have little control over.
      They also appear a bit impractical with some of their ideas.
      We all want to ave the Planet, but we have to be sensible at same time.

      I would like to see another pro Independence Party in Scotland, and it might turn out that we will need one if SNP mess up with their play it by the London rules strategy. i.e one that effectively replaces them!
      However, at this moment in time, at this particular General Election, as pointed out here, it would be just too much of a risk to field candidates, that could give us yet more tory MPs or more Labour MPs. For either Labour, or tory will be for Brexit, which s not what Scotland wants.
      And either, will be anti Independence, and if the Greens split that vote, they will not be treated too kindly in future.
      We saw that outcome in Edinburgh, and it was the Greens that effectively got Ruth Davidson elected.

      But as also noted here, it was the Greens who complained against a Wing Party for Edinburgh Parliament, making this very claim of not wanting to split the vote. But what they were actually getting at, without wanting saying it, is that such a Wings Party, would impact on the Green chances at Edinburgh.
      But here they are prepared to do the same thing, but with no gain for anyone, when it is clearly not a sensible, nor would be effective, idea.
      As I say, the Greens have been a bit of late down recently.

    106. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The Green Party can stand candidates anywhere they like”

      As it LITERALLY SAYS IN THE SODDING ARTICLE.

    107. Fergus Green says:

      The SNP lost seats in 2017 because they did not get their vote out. They also avoided mentioning ‘Independence’ It was not the Greens who took seats from them in 2017 or caused them to lose majorities. It was a well co-ordinated unionist collaboration which did the damage, but it only worked because lots of SNP voters were either complacent or took the huff.

      Its different this time round and SNP voters are more likely to get off their arses and down to the polling stations in December. That is what will win seats.

    108. SOG says:

      I hope Andy W has a more sensible viewpoint over this. I appreciate he may be a bit busy right now.

    109. Defo says:

      Ta for setting out what/who our friends are so concisely Stu.
      Those reduced margins were scary.

      Any chance of a forensic on who are behind the obvious,deliberate sabotage attempt on the only party who can get us where most of us here desperately want to be?
      After the GE, (& Eck’s stitch up dismissal at hearing hopefully too).
      Name names. Bring the pus to the surface 🙂

    110. twathater says:

      TBH I am disgusted if the greens carry on with these plans , as has been discussed on this site and others the ONLY way we will obtain independence is when the PEOPLE are motivated enough to vote for it , and the ONLY party with enough clout and respect to get the impetus moving forward is the SNP
      I believe in the green planet but as the backlash in the workplace parking policy shows unless you can implement it properly and can convince people of its benefits you are moonhowling

      The ONLY way Scotland will have ANY form of a socially , empathetic , green conscious government is when we are independent , if the greens think splitting the SNP vote will in ANY way accomplish their ambitions they are WRONG
      If they think that ANY unionist party will listen and act on their proposals they are deluded

      INDEPENDENCE FIRST then fight for your policies don’t sabotage our chances of a better country

    111. Kenny J says:

      I’ll repeat the story I have put up a couple of times in the past.
      In 2014, before the Ref. I was at question and answer meeting.
      Mr. Harvie was one of the speakers, rolled up on his bike.
      So, Labour, Snp, Torry and Harvie.
      I asked how they viewed Scotland and the UK.
      Harvies answer was that if he got his policies accepted, he was NOT bothered about Not having Independence.

    112. tartanfever says:

      “The Green Party can stand candidates anywhere they like”

      Rev Stu – As it LITERALLY SAYS IN THE SODDING ARTICLE.

      Reminder posters, even the Rev says you can’t question the Greens for posting candidates.
      So examples like these are daft.

      ‘and if the Greens split that vote, they will not be treated too kindly in future.’

      ‘The Greenies and their evil dwarf leader are the biggest threat going to Scottish Independence.

      They’ve already forced the SNP into dump ass policies,’

      ‘The Greens are a disgrace and should be consigned to the electoral margins’

      ‘The Greens standing against SNP for a Westminster seat when they know they haven’t a chance of winning is a wrecking tactic’

      What do you expect them to do ? they’re a political party and a General Election has been called. Of course they are going to stand candidates. There is no alliance between the Greens and the SNP as things stand, if there was you have a point. But there isn’t so you don’t.

      And yes, the Greens most likely will not win a seat, and it may reduce the number of SNP MP’s, who knows – but one thing is crazy, the idea that 50 SNP MP’s in Parliament not asking for Indyref or shutting up when a section 30 is requested then rejected (again) is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.

      Personally I would be asking Patrick Harvie what their manifesto is on taking the Independence message to Westminster and if it’s more robust than current SNP standards ( not hard) then I’d vote for them.

    113. John from Fife says:

      Regarding Climate Change there is nothing any Government can do about it because the reason for it is world overpopulation. The world population has doubled in the last 50 years so any measures being proposed are only tinkering around the edges regardless of what is said in the media.

    114. Dr Jim says:

      Pete Wishart has a majority of 21 votes
      The Greens know exactly what they’re doing and it’s got zero to do with climate change or any other issue they’re spouting
      The Greens are doing what they did when they allowed Ruth Davidson to win
      The last time the Greens contested that seat they got 1000 votes so they know they have no chance of winning but they do know they can wreck the SNP vote and let the Tories in…..again

    115. ScottieDog says:

      I want a green new deal for Scotland – for the sake of my child. I have to hope that other countries will do likewise. The election of Bernie Sanders in America could be transformative.
      The best chance for Scotland having a green new deal is independence. My Mrs is a long time green supporter but knows voting green in a WM election is a wasted vote. I can only hope there are many others in the Scottish Green Party share that view.

    116. SOG says:

      I’m assuming the Greeens are expecting a quid pro quo. That’s the only explanation I can see for a lot of lost deposits and volunteers’ time.

    117. Robert Louis says:

      Greens showing how immature they are as a party, and making one shed load of enemies in the indy movement. Student politics from Harvie. It will be interesting to see the kind of reception Harvie gets tomorrow at the indy gathering in George Square.

      As others above have pointed out, it was this kind of stupidity that literally gifted the seat to Ruth Davidson in Edinburgh, when it could have been won by the SNP.

      Now they are doing it again at many seats across Scotland. It will achieve nothing for the greens. At the last Scottish election they got my second vote, but for this, today, they will never again have any of my votes. Harvie is just a chump.

      And do you know the real problem? It achieves nothing except damage the SNP and indy movement. With so-called ‘friends’ like the greens, who need enemies?

      The greens are no friends of the indy movement.

    118. TJenny says:

      This move by the greens is an excellent advert, and reason, for the Wings Over Scotland party on the Holyrood list vote. I’ve never trusted the Greens and by god, I and many others will never give them our second vote if they let in unionists in this GE.

      C’mon the WOS party.

      Vote SNP on 12/12.

    119. AndyMcKangry says:

      It’s classic Harvie and the greens. Said for years he would swap independence for his own agenda any time, never trust a green.
      Anyone with half a brain knows that in a GE it’s SNP versus the Unionist Alliance, Harvie can’t be that stupid so it’s deliberate.
      Do the greens in Scotland seriously think that for one minute, any Unionist, Tory government in Westminster is ever going to go for a green agenda?? Fuckwits!!!

    120. Gary45% says:

      Who or what the f*ck is a Patrick Harvie?
      Answer – A poor mans Wullie Rennie.
      Wee Pat is believing his own press, not a good sign.
      Park the ego son.

    121. Terry callachan says:

      The Green Party is british so in my book that’s English I would never ever vote for them there is zero chance they will ever get anything other than a LIST seat in Holyrood and zero seats in Westminster.

      Now they plan to do as WOS says which is put SNP and Scottish independence seats at risk by letting tories Lib Dem’s or labour in.

      DO NOT EVER VOTE GREEN PARTY if you want Scottish independence

    122. Joe says:

      @ John from fife

      The problem with global warming is that its dodgy ‘science’ pushed by people who want more taxes to play with. Despite most emissions coming from non western countries who dont give a flying fudge about the environment. The annoying thing is its mostly pushed by well to do liberal hypocrites

    123. Ian McCubbin says:

      Yip they have now made it official via the Scotsman they are taking on the SNP.
      Are they stupid which government has done more for climate change than any other part of UK, the SNP government.
      I spoke for the recent resolution to create an energy Agency in Scotland.
      What more do they want.
      If they persist my 2nd vote will go to SSP

    124. Ghillie says:

      Ok. I hope everyone has got that out of their systems.

      The reduced margins are scary.

      So we can all work work work to get the SNP Independence vote out.

      How the Green Party plan to present themselves this GE is up to them. Again, maybe scary.

      I AM disquieted by Mr Campbell’s revelations above.

      In some instances it may draw some Libdem votes, and disgruntled Tory votes. But the impact on the realistically ‘in with a good chance of gaining/regaining a seat in Westminster’ party, the Scottish National Party, is highly worrying.

      BUT NOT IF WE GET THE SNP VOTE OUT!!

      The truth is that the Green Party will fare better (actually survive and thrive!) in Independent Scotland and be able to make a real difference from that platform. Sticking in union with a sick Westminster mindset will destroy all their future efforts. So maybe the Greens themselves will have this difficult conversation amongst themselves in time to do what is best for the World, for Scotland and their own political future.

      Anecdotally, we have a friend who is mad keen on the Green Party and Green issues AND is passionate about Scotland’s Independence. I think he sometimes votes SNP for that reason. And every Green member I have ever met has been totally committed to Scotland’s Independence. Having said that I suspect there are folk I have known in the past who lean towards being unionists also voting Green, but for different reasons. Bummer.

      Yes, this is a thorny question. I hope and expect that this is being thoroughly and sensitively discussed in both parties.

      Meantime folks, we have REAL enemies to fight.

    125. chicmac says:

      The Greens standing candidates does ostensibly represent a threat to the SNP in a Westminster GE. We should, however, hope, and with some expectation, that in effect this is no more than a minor blip for which the re-collapse of the Tory vote sans Babe Ruth and the continued collapse of the Labour vote under Ricardo Neolard will more than compensate.

      It is also difficult to grudge the Greens a modicum of retribution when they were so ill rewarded for their previous abstention by the sadly all to predictable party tribalism on display towards them at the ensuing Holyrood elections.

      Something which, thankfully, was not adhered to enough by the voting public to prevent them saving indy’s ass in the form of 6 Green MSPs.

    126. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Is there any real reason why the Indeppenence supporting SNP and Green Parties should stand at all at the Westminster Elections, never mind standing against each other?

      Independence apart, they are both broadly in favour of not destroying the environment and are both in favour of Scotland remaining in the EU (as are the majority in Scotland) and neither are keen on Westminster imposed austerity.

      In my view, it would make more sense for them to abstain in favour of a YES organisation which could select candidates from both and for that matter other sources as well.

      The SNP would benefit as more Independence MPs would be elected and the Greens because some of these MPs would be Greens.

      This coming election is probably too soon for such an arrangement to take place, but in my be inconclusive or we may not be as successful as we might wish – So I think it wise to consider it for the future.

      All the while hoping that it will become unnecessary.

    127. Col.Blimp IV says:

      third from last line should read –

      [but might be inconclusive]

    128. a wings party that was not openly hostile to the SNP might be a credible vehicle as an alternative to the Greens

      but not a Farrage-style one man show with unexplained governance and selection processes

    129. Andrew Morton says:

      If the Greens want to lose a bunch of money then that’s up to them. Worth pointing out that 2017 wasn’t a highwater mark for the SNP vote, rather the opposite so I’m expecting the lost 300,000 votes to come back again.

      It’s also dubious that all Green votes would come from the SNP; I wouldn’t be surprised if disillusioned Unionists choose to back them rather than the SNP. I’m guessing that the Green intervention will have little effect other than to make them look silly (again)

    130. Bibbit says:

      I’ve said it before & I’ll say it again. In 2014, during the first Indy campaign, at a small public meeting at Lamlash High School, Isle of Arran, Mr Harvie stated blandly, ‘I’m not that bothered about independence’. He then droned on about his (perfectly entitled to) priorities, which, to me, were all pie in the sky dreams of living in a green, green, green world with schemes difficult enough in an Indy Scotland, but positively impossible within the UK.

      I favour green policies but I have parked all these ambitions until we are Independent. Mr Harvie has not. He’s unable to see the wood for the trees.

    131. Gary says:

      Not EXACLTY on topic but still relevant, kinda, is the interview of John MCDonnell on Ch4 News tonight.

      At the Edinburgh Festival and since he, and Corbyn, have dropped heavy hints that IndyRef2 could be on the cards ‘if only we had a Labour Government’ But they WERE hints, neither would come right out and say it and the most recent comments appeared to kick the can down the road a little further.

      Well tonight the can has been crushed and tossed in the bin! He was asked directly to comment and said that he was ‘against another referendum’ and would not grant it and DEFINTELY not accept a request under S30 in the ‘formative years’ of a Labour Govt. As he said this I was mindful we are approx. 18 months away from a Holyrood Election. He started to say something about “if they had a mandate…” but didn’t finish. The obvious hope is that they’ll trick enough former Labour Indy supporters into voting for them and then hope that SNP numbers drop sufficiently low at Holyrood for them to say that there is no mandate, not grant a referendum and STILL claim to have kept their word.

      I’m not of the opinion that Corbyn & McDonnell are personally against IndyRef2 BUT they are doing the same with this as with Brexit, they are trying to please both sides at once. And that just doesn’t work. They are losing votes due to Brexit and THIS will cost YET MORE votes in Scotland.

      No doubt some will hear what they want to hear but hopefully SNP can get the message out that Labour are DEFINTELY going to ignore Scotland’s voice AGAIN and are trying to trick voters – AGAIN.

      After spending DECADES voting for this party in Council, Regional Council (yes, I’m old) and then Scottish Parliament, Westminster and EU at EVERY SINGLE ELECTION (never EVER missed a vote) I will never, ever vote for these liars and tricksters again. They have literally never done anything for this country and have stood in the way and helped dismantle good legislation too.

      On THAT point, after Labour and their Tory pals did away with anti-sectarian legislation we NOW have the international football people wanting us to introduce rules about how we deal with racism and, guess what, sectarianism in our football here at home. Our football association promises to introduce ‘a version of’ what they as for (FFS!) Apparently Scottish football will DIE if ‘fans’ aren’t allowed to be sectarian and racist. If that WAS true, I wouldn’t mourn its passing…



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