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Wings Over Scotland

Narrow windows

Posted on September 08, 2019 by

Supporters of the opposition’s plan to block a no-deal Brexit have been proclaiming vindication this weekend over a couple of polls which show significantly lower support for the Tories, and a lead for Labour, in the event that a general election is called after 31 October with Brexit not having happened.

In that scenario, Tory voters tell pollsters that they’re more likely to defect to the Brexit Party, and the resulting split in the Brexit vote appears to point towards a Labour-led government if you plug the figures into a site like Electoral Calculus.

The reality is much more complicated than that. But what we’re specifically interested in is how it would affect the chances of securing a second indyref, so let’s take a look.

Firstly, the bare numbers on those figures:

At first glance it looks promising. Labour and SNP votes would add up to a 337 – a clear majority. However, the SNP wouldn’t be Labour’s only option. A deal with the Lib Dems would be slightly better for them, producing a 341-seat coalition.

It seems overwhelmingly likely that Labour would choose to work with the Lib Dems rather than concede a second independence referendum, particularly given that John McDonnell as recently as this morning expressly rejected the latter idea.

(We fully expect Labour’s position on this to flip at least three times before tomorrow, but throw the Lib Dems into the mix and it’s a pretty safe bet that it’s not happening.)


But the Electoral Calculus figures are oversimplified. They take no account of tactical voting, which would be likely to be a HUGE factor in any general election this year, before or after 31 October. Luckily, the site allows users to add a “Tactical Fraction” (TF), imagining the percentage of a party’s voters who might switch tactically to another if their preferred party was unlikely to win in their own seat.

So let’s try that with a uniform TF of 25% for every party:

Now Labour need both the Lib Dems AND the SNP to get to a majority, and if the prospects of Labour agreeing to another indyref were slim, the chances of the Lib Dems also going along with it can fairly confidently be said to be nil.


So what if we crank the Tactical Fraction up to 50% across the board? There is, after all, much open talk of electoral pacts on both sides, which would increase the tactical-voting effect hugely. And if one side agreed a pact it would make it far more likely that the other side would too, in the classic arms race.

With a TF of 50% we get this:

Now even a three-party Remain coalition struggles to get to a majority.


It’s actually a lot more plausible, however, that the TF will NOT be uniform. For a Brexit voter, it’s really easy to switch between the Tories and the Brexit Party according to your local circumstances, because both will be unmistakeably in practice standing for the same thing – a no-deal Brexit.

The situation is much less clear for the Remain parties – assuming, indeed, that we can even class Labour as a Remain party. Large swathes of their voters will be extremely reluctant to vote either Lib Dem or SNP, particularly in seats in the north of England which voted overwhelmingly Leave and which will be heavily targeted by the Brexit Party because the Tories have next to zero presence there.

So what if we make the TF 50% for Leave parties and 25% for Remain?

A completely hung Parliament. Right back to where we are now.


But for fairness, let’s imagine it skews the other way, and the Remain parties somehow cobble together a viable alliance. So we’ll swap those numbers around – a TF of 50 for Remain parties and 25 for Leave.

Again, all three Remain parties are needed. To fully understand how implausible a second indyref is in this scenario, imagine that Labour and the Lib Dems somehow agreed to one, and Scotland voted Yes.

(Which is probably quite unlikely in itself in those circumstances – with Brexit averted, who’d volunteer to plunge back into several more years of uncertainty?)

The remnant UK would now be in a situation where it had only been kept in the EU by the votes of MPs who were no longer part of the UK. It’s all but inconceivable that this plainly unsustainable scenario wouldn’t result in another election and/or another EU referendum which would return a clear rUK Leave vote. And jings, you think we’ve got constitutional chaos NOW?


So let’s have one last attempt at stacking the odds. Let’s assume Labour voters remain utterly resolute and refuse to vote tactically, but let’s say that every single Lib Dem or Green is willing to vote tactically for Labour. And let’s also imagine that the Brexit Party and Tories are SO at loggerheads that none of them will switch either.

Even in this wildly, comically unfeasible fantasy of a future, the SNP can’t quite carry Labour to a majority alone.


Remember, these calculations are based on the opposition’s attempts to block a pre-November election succeeding. That isn’t in itself guaranteed by any means. They represent a best-case scenario for both Remainers and Yessers.

And while Electoral Calculus projections are by no means a source of hard empirical stats, the underlying fact they illustrate is that the main beneficiaries of any Remain alliance will unquestionably be the Lib Dems. Labour, and in particular Jeremy Corbyn, are simply far too unpopular to deliver a situation where the SNP can effectively hold them to ransom for a second indyref.

The time when that strategy could have worked, if it ever existed, is gone. While we can tantalisingly glimpse the light, there is no window big enough for us to get through.

In so far as it can be said to have a Plan A at all (we’re not sure that just asking nicely over and over again in the hope that Westminster suddenly develops a conscience and gives us another indyref out of the kindness of its heart really counts as a “plan”), the SNP, and the Yes movement, definitely and urgently need a Plan B.

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433 to “Narrow windows”

  1. Yes, Plan B is required.
    And, I was very apprehensive about splitting the vote up here but I have come around to the simple logic of it. It must be coordinated and the SNP need to get off their high horse and go along with it to. This is not a question of disloyalty to the SNP but is Loyalty to the cause of Independence. I will shout for this from now on and directly to the SNP.
    Right behind you Rev!

  2. Ruglonian says:

    This is the current gold standard link to explain both the ongoing WM shambles and the lack of leverage for IndyRef2 within – thanks for the resource Stu, and for the unmistakably stark reality check!

  3. Alt Clut says:

    How likely is it that the SNP leadership is not looking seriosly at alternative strategies ? They would have to be among the most inept leaders in history. Another way of qualifying for that group of numpties would be to have worked out alternatives and then blab about them.

    Just keep the heid and keep pushing.

  4. John Thomson says:

    Truly demoralizing, aware you didn’t intend it to be that way . God help us all in this maze of unicorns.

  5. John Thomson says:

    Vote SNP 1 WINGS 2 in hollyrood election to be called this year hopefully

  6. Beee says:

    Why don’t YOU go along to Nicola Sturgeon’s next press conference and ask her all these things that nobody else seems able to ask?
    Doorstep her office, ask for an in-depth interview. Demand answers on behalf of the Indy movement.
    What is “plan B”?
    The SNP did zilch with the 56 MPs (now reduced) so what is going to be different at the next General Election?

  7. Rob Outram says:

    While I accept the underlying calculations here I dont recall anyone in the SNP actually saying that this was their plan. I also don’t believe in unicorns so am not naive enough to think that any resulting government that is not dependent on the SNP will grant indyref2.
    However a large boost in support for the SNP standing on an independence manifesto might be hard to resist indefinately. And if Boris does squeak through, even without his parcel of rogues, he might just wash his hands with us.

  8. Mist001 says:

    They’ve never had a plan in the first place, except for maybe accepting devo max. I don’t believe that Sturgeon is truly independence minded and in fact, I believe she is central to what I see as a deliberate sabotage from within regarding Scottish independence.

    The problem is that independence supporters seem blinded to the fact that there is no alternative independence party in Scotland and Sturgeon and the SNP use this to their own advantage. That’s why currently, I support the Wings initiative.

    Scotland desperately needs an alternative independence party and Wings is the only one that’s thrown their hat into the ring so far and made proposals at least.

  9. faolie says:

    There can only be one plan B – and that’s a) for the SP to (somehow) dissolve the TOU and then b) hold a confirmatory referendum to endorse, or indeed, reject, its dissolution and a return to pre-1707 self-government. Assuming we’re out of the EU, we should be able to rely on their support at least

  10. Sharny Dubs says:

    1 SNP, 2 Wings

    Makes so much sense

  11. Wynn Thorne says:

    Perhaps ‘OUTCOME: NO INDYREF’ is the plan. Mad to advertise your tactics to the opposition in advance. I believe this is exactly the scenario the SNP have been looking for – the next steps they take will be the ones they can state they have been FORCED to adopt. Faolie isn’t far off the mark. I would also point out that Scotland will not be the only issue facing Westminster, there will be N Ireland and of course the EU to deal with.

  12. HandandShrimp says:

    As I said last night, I think Corbyn would be unwise to assume a split to the Brexit Party if the 31st is missed. Voters aren’t entirely thick. If the opposition so the hands of Boris so he can’t leave on the 31st the chances are Labour will take some of that blame. It may be that some of their vote goes to Farage.

    Boris would suffer if he was deemed to have deliberately missed the 31st. He is patently determined on No Deal.

    If it is as seems likely another hung parliament with no Tories in Scotland our best chance is that Boris offers a referendum in the hope of losing 59 opposition MPs and getting shot of us.

    Failing that mandates are pointless whether now or in 2021 if they are to be ignored. A plan B is therefore necessary and enacted asap.

  13. Republicofscotland says:

    In other words the slim window of opportunity for a second indref vote is…well, slim to non existent under the current Brexit thingmyjig.

  14. Helen Yates says:

    I hope the ‘Idea’ of a Wings party has morphed into something more substantial now because I see no way forward without another party nipping at the heels of the SNP

  15. Capella says:

    Nicol Sturgeon says that, if there is a clear majority of Scottish voters in favour of independence then the Labour Party would bend to the democratic will and agree a referendum. She says any other stance would be “unsustainable”. She doesn’t say how she might test that unsustainability.

    See interview in Republica:

    Do you think that Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party are really into a second Scottish referendum? They have sent mixed messages recently.

    “On this question Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t support independence, he’s taking the correct and the Democratic position: I don’t support independence, I’d rather there wasn’t an independence referendum but it wouldn’t be right for Westminster to block it, if there is a government in Scotland with a majority for that then we should respect that majority.

    That seems to me just to be the statement of basic democracy and really still puzzles me why the Scottish Labour Party don’t just take that view as well because it doesn’t take them into supporting independence or even to supporting an independence referendum. They can say “We would vote against it, We will argue against it” but when it comes to if that is our majority in the Scottish Parliament for that… then Jeremy Corbyn’s view I think will ultimately be the view of the Labour Party. It would be anti-democratic to block it.

    “La Repubblica si batterà sempre in difesa della libertà di informazione, per i suoi lettori e per tutti coloro che hanno a cuore i principi della democrazia e della convivenza civile”

    Carlo Verdelli
    TagsArgomenti:BrexitscoziaReferendumreferendum scoziaProtagonisti:Nicola Sturgeon
    © Riproduzione riservata
    06 settembre 2019

    La premier scozzese Sturgeon: “Il Regno Unito è destinato a morire”

  16. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    Why do you think that Nicola and the SNP don’t have a plan B?

    It’s been obvious for years that none of the Unionist parties will grant a Section 30 order.

    Do the think the SNP leadership is unaware of this?

    We just have to let Brexit run its course – the UK will never recover and it will lead to the breakup of the UK.

    It going to happen and it’s going to happen very quickly.

  17. galamcennalath says:

    No WM government is going to give a S30 when they know it will lead to Indy. End of, as far as I am concerned.

    They have so much form. The 40% rule in 1979 to prevent devolution. Thatcher never delivering the ‘better devolution package’ they promised pre 79. There was no way DevoMax/FFA was going to be allowed on any referendum paper, because it would win. Cameron only accepted the Edinburgh agreement because he was sure he would win. (He also did EURef on the basis of expecting to win). The made false promises to win IndyRef1, and never delivered.

    WM begrudges giving anything to Scotland. An S30? No chance.

    I don’t know what the SNP plan involves but clearly they are trying hard to be perceived reasonable and wiling to compromise. And they want this to be seen as a contrast to BritNats being intransigent and unreasonable. This is probably to persuade No-Remains to switch to Yes.

    Are they seriously expecting an S30? I don’t think so.

  18. Muscleguy says:

    It would indeed need us to weaponise a Holyrood List vote. Although if Swinson loses her seat which she might do then the FibDems might be more likely to let us have one without being led by Swinson. Because of course for Swinson to concede one would be likely to result in her losing her seat as it vanishes under Independence.

    Turkeys do not vote for Xmas.

    Also because of the obvious problem that relying on the SNP in a coalition would indeed mean a loss of govt majority when we leave the UK. So at best we might be allowed to have one in say 4 years time which put it at the mercy of by-elections and defections.

    Personally in that scenario I would prefer the SNP to offer only Confidence and Supply and not fully enter into a formal coalition. That way they will be less likely to be contaminated by the Lib/Lab govt actions.

  19. Capella says:

    @ galamcennalath – I agree. The remain vote in Scotland was 62% in 2016 and is probably c 70% now. If the SNP are the only remain party in Scotland (Lib Dems not clearly remain if they are toying with a coalition) then there is a chance of picking up a huge swathe of votes.

    Nicola Sturgeon obviously thinks that in that scenario opposing Indyref2 will be “unsustainable”.

  20. Mac says:

    Why is there any debate at all about an S30 and the Westminster Parties “allowing it” or giving it in exchange for support?!!?

    This should never be the SNP position. We are entitled to the S30. We don’t need to beg or do deals. And we shouldn’t. It’s ridiculous. It should not even be debated on here.

    It’s falling into the Unionist trap, similar to the ‘cannot use the pound’ type of argument.

    Doing a deal with Labour or anyone else would make Scottish politics as facile as Westminsters. Seriously? Support a political party who would deny Scottish democracy, in exchange for one S30. You must be kidding.

    Who gives a flying fish if Labour does a deal with Lib Dems, or Tories do a deal; with Farage. It merely accelerates the rise of English Nationalism. And this is the way forward for the whole of the UK.

    Why are all you “We are sovereign” guys, not up in arms about the very idea that we can be refused? And if you are, why do we even need to discuss it.

    Let’s face it. No one wants to give Scotland a second chance. It came too close last time. And in any case, the polls for Indy will be scaring the crap out of them.

    Let any party ‘refuse’ a democratic S30, while at the same time English Nationalism is soaring, and you will see, not only a rise in YES in Scotland, but a great deal of support from many in England.

    We are approaching, crunch time, we need to assume that S30 is a given after a GE that returns the expected SNP seats.

  21. aldo_macb says:

    My prediction is that it’s going to be a Tory majority, swiftly followed by Brexit. This will give Scotland it’s best ever chance at independence. Let’s keep positive and together and make the case.

  22. Street Andrew says:

    Scottish Independence within the context of the Brexit backdrop was always a ‘Three Bodies Problem’.

    That has not changed. Not one iota.

    Pretty charts though……

  23. Meindevon says:

    Blackford has said time and again that Scotland will not be taken out of the EU against its will. They absolutely must have a plan B. Otherwise he is going to have a plateful of egg on his face in the next few months. And I agree he SNP must have something else going on or they would be completely inept.

    We also have the Revs plan B of a Wings Party for the Tory list votes which, if successful, will show Westminster to be totalitarian if they don’t ‘allow’ another Indy ref. Then we go through the UN maybe?

    Whatever, we have to stay positive and more importantly, united by our common goal. We are totally screwed down here. You need to keep your eye on the prize and back the SNP to the hilt or like us you will have no Party worth putting a cross by on the ballot paper.

  24. Bob Mack says:

    I do not actually believe we do have a plan B. Nicola wanted an election now but apparently met resistance from the Westminster members. So we wait.

    Labour are not going to give a referendum. Of that I have no doubt. Scottish Labour feel they are left without hope of future recovery in that scenario. Especially if indy wins which is their biggest nightmare. My cousin is a former Labour MP.

    So, no chance of a section 30 from any of the major parties, but possible coalition on their terms,which will be a buy off with trinkets and baubles.

    As you have said all along Rev, there should have been measures put in place regarding the legitimacy of a referendum for a sovereign people. Tested in court well before now, and it will be vigorously contested by Westminster.

  25. Essexexile says:

    Joss Mackintosh @2.43pm
    I believe the SNP have ruled out any debate towards a potential plan B at their upcoming conference. The thinking behind the move being that it undermines plan A.

  26. Somerled says:

    I dont think the SNP have any plans and are just making it up as they go. And if i was Mr & Mrs Murrell on £250,000 per annum, I would be happy for the status quo for a few more years until i take early retirement and a UN job somewhere.

    I wonder if these polls include the Jewish backlash against labour.

    I agree a Wings party is needed now to prepare for the next Scottish parliament election as the SNP need strong opposition at Holyrood, which they dont have just now.

  27. Wee Alex says:

    I can’t believe anyone could possibly think the leadership of the SNP weren’t supportive of anything but full independence, it is ridiculous.

    I’ve been trying in my own mind to ask why they don’t go now and it’s quite obvious, the residents of Scotland ain’t there yet.

    Yes we have all heard from neighbours and friends that they have changed from no to yes but it’s not what opinion polls are telling us.

    The SNP will be doing its own private polling, that will tell them when the time is right, my gut feeling is the general public are not there yet. The underlying problem I’m detecting is a hard border between Scotland and England.

    I agree with the assessment carried out and not one Westminster scenario will offer us independence and the SNP knows that too.

    I’ve been around the trade union and political movement long enough to know that every possible option is discussed, challenged and reviewed.

    Conference season is coming soon, it’ll be interesting to see how all party’s line up.

  28. Cubby says:


    Exactly. It is an advantage not having a Sect 30. The Britnats ( and I don’t just mean the ace liar Johnson) can never be trusted. They would never honour a sect 30 if an indyref was YES.

    On the Andrew Marr show this morning John Mc Donnell Labour shadow chancellor was trying to make out he was a democrat by saying he stood by his words at the Edinburgh festival. Except this time he said a UK ( not the truth as he said in Edinburgh English) parliament would not stand in the way of a democratic indyref for Scotland. He then reverted back to the normal Britnat lies by saying that “there would have to be a proper mandate in Scotland ” for it.

    Of course, Britnat Marr who had just spent a lot of time intensely interrogating him about Brexit doesn’t ask any follow up questions e.g. Define a proper mandate or the Scottish parliament think they have a proper mandate as they have voted for an indyref.

    The Britnats will never play fair. They control the airwaves and the press and pump out lies, misrepresentation of facts and basic propaganda every day of the week so why should anyone think they will suddenly turn in to the fictitious decent British gentleman is way beyond me.

  29. Republicofscotland says:

    One wonders what Boris Johnson et al, would do (declare English independence) if the EU said to him now is not the time and no you can’t leave without our permission.

    There would be rioting on the streets of England.

  30. Terry callachan says:

    A S30 is preferable for Scotland and England , we do not want a NO DEAL exit from the UK and I am pretty certain that both countries politicians agree with that.

    England keep refusing a S30 because the NO vote is always higher than the YES vote it’s as simple as that.
    Poll,s recently may be showing the YES vote as a majority but that is not the same as numbers in an election or referendum.

    Once the YES vote exceeds the NO vote in numbers consistently Westminster will allow a S30 because they do not want a NO DEAL with Scotland which unlike the rest of the EU is actually attached to England’s land and that makes a huge difference, we both need an amicable separation.

  31. Steve the pirate says:

    Given that Corbyn has said he wouldn’t block a Scottish referendum, a coalition isn’t necessary. SNP picking up fifty odd seats and Labour in government should be all that’s required.

    I would also expect Labour to pick up more votes as campaigning goes on, so I think there’s a very reasonable chance of those two outcomes occurring.

  32. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Trying to be objective, seeing it as an alien might, I just don’t see the logical difference between disbelieving Sajid Javid and the PM when they bang on about negotiations being so important that they cannot show their hand, and what some are claiming on Blackford’s behalf.

    Essentially, all are saying ‘keep the heid, it’ll be alright’.

    So it’s alright for Blackford to demand that we keep the faith without the slightest evidence of a strategy, but when the UK Govt does likewise we can safely dismiss it because we know it’s just Tories up to their usual dodginess?

    There’s a lot of wishful thinking going on here.

  33. Sarah says:

    Petition for international observers at next independence referendum: the map shows Scotland in red shades, mostly [NE letting us down again], so I take it that all Wingers have signed?

    No we haven’t because there are only 7000 signatures and there’s 200,000 plus readers of Wings.

    And Mark Piggott’s fundraiser on GoFundMe for flags is struggling. He needed £8000 by this weekend and has reached £3750 from 174 donors.

  34. Athanasius says:

    It MIGHT be possible to hold them up for a change in the law granting Holyrood the right to hold an indyfer without a section 30 order. Probably not a usable right immediately, but it would mean that, given the right circumstances, a Scottish parliament could call a referendum off its own bat at some time in the future.

  35. Artyhetty says:

    Does anybody in the media EVER ask Labour or whoever is sitting in the ‘you’ll not be getting your indy ref two lolz’, seat, why on earth it is they so desperately want to hang onto Scotland when so much ( I mean it must 100’s of £BILLIONS by now!) of their hard earned cash is propping this desperate, useless, stupid tiny backwater, where ‘Scotland doesn’t matter’?

    This was all so predictable on 19th Septemeber 2014. Brexit, dissolve Holyrood, send in a couple of thousand English civil servants, make sure the tanks are at the ready.

    ‘You’ll have had your tiny wee parliament’, lolz, nothing more than a ‘parish council’!

    The UK is the US’s bitch, Scotland is the UK’s ( England’s) bitch. Fabulous.

  36. Iain mhor says:

    I think that brings us full circle to the endless S30 requirement arguments.
    Call me naive, but I have never believed that another S30 would be entered into since 2014 by any Unionist party (ie all of them) So I have never troubled myself with placing it front and centre of any speculation (tactically or otherwise) it’s been said before, that if Independence can only ever be achieved via an S30, it will never be achieved.
    Well, there’s an outside chance in some sort of Doomsday/ Zombie Apocalypse/ Chernobyl quarantine scenario – though I doubt we’d be controlling any marine resources.

    Without rehashing arguments, to address the central point ‘how do you hold a referendum – well you hold one. If the argument is that for some ‘reasons’ Councils etc may refuse to participate, then we must ask “what is a referendum”? It is nothing more than a census. There is another mechanism for holding a census – which is called “Holding a census”.
    They tend to happen quite frequently and everyone is bound by law to complete it. There’s due to be another one in… Let me see – 2021 (with a trial in October 2019) *Other census are available.
    Though some may pore over that and decide that such a Census has to be approved by Westminster and “His Majesty” again (yes, King George) and again and again ad-infinitum.

    Is there to be no recourse at any turn? Scotland, you can’t point at it, nor even look at it by any means whatsoever, without it being agreed by the Crown in Parliament. “Let One give one a clue – One never shall”
    Can we ask nothing without approval and if there is only one question and one alone, which Scotland is prohibited from asking, then there is a word for that. So now it brings us into the realm (ha) of legitimacies.

    A census or referendum is only to find out if your actions will carry the majority of the people. That’s really all elections are – a census, a referendum a poll. Decide to introduce a beard tax? “Outrage” The people backed us to make that decision. “How do you know?” Had a census mate. “I don’t recognise your census!” You don’t recognise yourself in the mirror with that beard mate – you owe us tax by the way.

    As for recognition of Independence declarations and their legitimacy; I think there is a fair amount of evidence for people refusing to accept legitimacies of any actions; whether nations, countries, towns, streets and the last person standing. What is the criteria, where is the line drawn?
    Scenario: The free countries of the world acccept Scottish Independence, except for England, the USA and China and a vice-versa scenario. So how legitimate is Independence then? Ok a reductio ad absurdum argument, but you get the point.

    Fight a GE on it, fight Scottish Elections on it, take a poll of any flavour you like, weigh yourself, weigh the people, pass your Independence bill. It might even stick.
    So, there you go, that’s my starter for ten. Next.

  37. Capella says:

    Well RT managed to get a camera to Perth on Saturday

  38. Artyhetty says:

    Does anybody in the media EVER ask Labour or whoever is sitting in the ‘you’ll not be getting your indy ref two lolz’, seat, why on earth it is they so desperately want to hang onto Scotland when so much ( I mean it must 100’s of £BILLIONS by now!) of their hard earned cash is propping this desperate, useless, stupid tiny backwater, where ‘Scotland doesn’t matter’?

    This was all so predictable on 19th Septemeber 2014. Brexit, dissolve Holyrood, send in a couple of thousand English civil servants, and make sure the tanks are at the ready.

    ‘You’ll have had your tiny wee parliament’, lolz, nothing more than a ‘parish council’!

    The UK is the US’s bitch, Scotland is the UK’s ( England’s) bitch. Fabulous.

  39. Mac says:

    Controversially, I believe the SNP should include in their GE Manifesto a Scottish EU referendum for 2025.

    It would be after we settled, and discovered how it was going. And it would be giving the decision fully to the electorate.

  40. Giving Goose says:

    It is possible that the SNP believe that their strategy for an Independent Scotland requires stability in England.
    We do not want a chaotic neighbour when we are Independent, as much as some would take an uncaring viewpoint on that.
    It’s in the best interests of Scotland for England not to be some neo-fascist hell hole.

  41. Neil Mackenzie says:

    Three paragraphs in and I hate the premise of this article, already.

    “the chances of securing a second indyref”

    There was an election with a second indyref in the manifesto of the party elected to govern the country and the parliament endorsed the mandate by a clear and unambiguous democratic majority. The UK government is compelled by international law (which it committed to in writing voluntarily) to respect self determination of peoples as a legal right and, therefore, can’t do something which directly contradicts that fundamental principle. A second indyref has been secured.

  42. mr thms says:

    Remember Article 50 has five parts and Part 5 is reserved for Scotland.

  43. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “A second indyref has been secured.”

    How’s that working out?

  44. Breeks says:

    The thing that strikes me is Brexit, or rather it’s buoyancy.

    In the beginning there was Tory Euroscepticism, which was pretty anodyne until UKIP and Farage came along.

    Fearful of losing ground to UKIP, the Tories farted out a referendum, confident the result would be staying in Europe, and the annoying UKIP boil would be lanced.

    But having won against all odds, and staring up at the enormity of what they’d done, Farage said “job done”, quit his Party, and ran away. The three Tory Brexiteers, Rees-Mogg, Johnson, and Gove, all ducked responsibility for Brexit, and left Brexit in the hands of former Remainer, Theresa May.

    Despite “nobody” being especially keen to be the figurehead of a Brexit initiative, in fact the Brexit “Ringleaders” had essentially ran away, at no stage was the general public allowed to run away from Brexit, because the UK media pumped steroids into the notion that Brexit was a National obligation, whereas stubborn Remainers were an affront and a threat to democracy. No threat to Brexit would be tolerated.

    The Leave Campaign was guilty of breaking the law and Electoral Protocol, but despite the fines, Court cases and Electoral Commission bumping it’s gums, at no time was the validity of the referendum questioned. No threat to Brexit would be tolerated.

    When May tried to undo the Brexit crochet, the Tory canoe suddenly found there were rocks and rapids in Shit Creek, and they couldn’t be moved. The EU apparently didn’t read the Daily Mail and didn’t know the script on Brexit, and while the Irish Backstop is often described as the UK’s idea, it was nevertheless inevitable and always going to be there… an unmovable.

    With Theresa’s May’s preliminary attempt at a Withdrawal Agreement, the EU’s intransigence and the Irish Backstop suddenly brought Brexit much too close to objective reality, and a nation shitting itself and perhaps thinking twice about Brexit could not be tolerated, so Farage was ushered in again, riding a wave of invisible money to put the UKIP brand back together, only to discover brand UKIP was unfrocked as a racist and thick as pigshit, but No threat to Brexit could be tolerated, so a new “Brexit Party” was magicked into existence, trumpeted by the media, and encouraged to hijack the EuroElections. Not bad, Party inception to a busload of MEP’s in a few short months. SNP must be green with envy. (Sorry, couldn’t help myself).

    With May stuck between a rock and a hard place, hemmed in by reality and unable to move forward or back, all the pressure is on the Brexiteers, because the longer it takes for Brexit to happen, the more pennies there are dropping from the pound collapsing, and Britain is in danger of a premature recovery from its insanity before the dirty deed of Brexit is in the back of the net.

    So May has to go, and an increasingly stale and faltering Brexit needs tarted up with Boris the Buffoon put in charge. He only has to keep it together for a few weeks until the default Brexit kicks the U.K. out. What could go wrong? But wouldn’t you know it? The hopeless charlatan Boris Johnson is a hopeless charlatan, and can’t keep Brexit on it’s collision course even for a few days.

    So. …..Where am I going with all this, you ask. Well take a step back. The impetus for Brexit is NOT political. The Brexit campaign has changed it’s clothes time after time, and recycled it’s leadership with indifferent cynicism. If the Tories won’t deliver, then they’ll invent UKIP. If UKIP won’t deliver, then they’ll invent the Brexit Party. Brexit isn’t a political stratagem, it’s a shapeshifting xenomorph which alters it’s appearance when discovered. It’s a political Trojan virus.

    Brexit is the will of the UK Deep State, the money men in grey suits. It doesn’t matter if Boris Johnson was to be struck by a meteor tomorrow morning. By tomorrow afternoon there’d be some other gormless Patsy parachuted into the driving seat, and a gaslighting media promotion cementing their credentials and confirming they’ve got what it takes to get the job done.

    Brexit is a titanic battle between a partially anaesthetised democracy and the wicked greedy Deep State manipulators who are administering the anaesthetic.

    The UK is fighting Brexit tactically, battle by battle, but the driving force behind Brexit, (and I promise you that’s neither Boris Johnson or Farage), has a global dimension to it’s strategic campaign. It’s Brexit they want for it’s global ramifications, and the UK is expendable.

    Take down Boris, and there will be ‘another’ Boris by the middle of next week.

    Brexit doesn’t need a referendum or General Election to fix the mess. Brexit needs a forensic judicial review by UK Security Forces with Emergency powers of investigation and arrest. The UK has had it’s central nervous system attacked by factors unknown, and is only just beginning to realise it.

  45. Kenny says:

    And all those dodgy Twitter accounts over the last few months, ranting; ‘Now is the time, or I’m tearing-up my SNP card!’ – it appears that ‘now’ in fact is not the time and I wish they’d just fade away.

    Sure, most unionist Polls are bound to show favour to their own, but Wings has a few Polls since ’14 and none of them show Yes stretching-out, endlessly, into the galaxy.
    As the SNP have been urging for a long, long time; keep working, stay positive, use your influence, show Scotland in a good light, and let the Tories do what they’re good at.

    Yes, a hard Brexit and its barbaric consequences – no matter how tough on the lives of Scots – might garner a Yes stretching endlessly.

  46. Not Convinced says:

    Let us suppose that a general election leaves Labour in a position of being the largest party, but where only the SNP (well, and presumably also the Tories but can’t see a “grand coalition” forming outside of wartime) have the numbers to put them in power.

    Now Labour can say what they like at the moment about how they won’t do a deal with the SNP, and will dare them to put the Tories in power instead, but in this scenario without the support of the SNP they (Labour) can’t assume power in the first place. The Queen is not going to summon Jeremy Corbyn to form a government when he self-evidentially lacks the confidence of The House!

    Even if they somehow dodge that bullet it would leave them largely at the mercy of the SNP! Imagine Labour propose a piece of legislation (it matters not upon what subject), the Tories propose an amendment that Labour+SNP defeat and then the SNP propose an amendment which the Tories+SNP support (the SNP because they think it a good amendment, the Tories simply to cause trouble for Labour) and it’s carried. What do Labour do then? Vote down their own legislation alongside the Tories, or pass the SNP amended version?

  47. starlaw says:

    There are international laws against keeping and fleecing colonies, serious sanctions can be applied through the UN. Refusal of a section 30 will start that process. Still lots of water to go under the bridge yet, still time to wait.
    England seems to ready to become a one party state and that will be the end of the UK as the world will not allow this to happen, remember Hitler.

  48. Gary45% says:

    The UN are about as much use as a chocolate ashtray.
    Israel condemned by the UN for war crimes, and NOTHING gets done.
    If we hold our hopes with that lot we are FKD.

  49. frogesque says:

    OK, the SG have to formally ask nicely for an S30 from whatever Gov Westminster can cobble together. I have always assumed this would not so nicely be refused.

    Plans B,C and D will come out the locked cupboard.

    No army can stop an idea whose time has come.
    Victor Hugo: Les Miserables.

    Our job is to grow the concept of Independence into an irresistible force that the World at large recognises. Our future does not rest in the hands of Westminster. It rests with us.

  50. Neil Mackenzie says:

    This article is founded on a capitulation to the propaganda that we don’t have a right to self-determination unless the UK government, in whatever form it takes, says we do but it shouldn’t need to be explained to anyone that what the UK government says and what is true are separate things which overlap only occasionally.

    Every time anyone says they (whoever ‘they’ are) will refuse or block a second indyref, they’re effectively saying we don’t have that right to self-determination that every people on the planet has – and it isn’t true.

    For all this nonsensical presumption, no one has ACTUALLY blocked or refused to allow the second independence referendum, yet. Stuff has been said but nothing’s been done. “Now is not the time” is a procrastination. It’s not a refusal. It can’t be refused and it can’t be postponed indefinitely.

  51. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@3.01pm

    “Nicola wanted an election now but apparently was met by resistance by the Westminster members.”

    Bob do you know that is true because you say apparently. What is the source of this info?

  52. JPJ2 says:

    The problem, if this analysis takes hold, is that we could see the re-emergence of the decades long view of the electorate in Scotland that voting SNP in Westminster General Elections is pointless.
    Nobody can convince me that the SNP falling back to the 6 seats they held in 2010 would be as useful for independence as having 50 seats in Westminster, even if the near random nature of FPTP voting failed to deliver the balance of power to the SNP.

    50 seats for the SNP, followed by persistent refusals by Westminster to allow an S30 would likely result in a Holyrood Election in 2021 with the SNP declaring that election as a de facto referendum on independence.
    Believe me, if a genuine majority of the people of Scotland want independence, it will happen, one way or another.

  53. Famous15 says:

    Too many here wishing to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory!

    I have waited over seventy years so you lot can wait a few more weeks.

    Cut oor Nicola some slack!

  54. vlad (not that one) says:

    Breeks @ 16:09
    <i.The thing that strikes me is Brexit, or rather it’s buoyancy. … The impetus for Brexit is NOT political. … Brexit is the will of the UK Deep State, the money men in grey suits. …

    There is no doubt in my simple mind that brexit was necessary to avoid EU poking its nose into the money laundering affairs of those people in grey suits and their bosses. Follow the money, follow the money …

  55. robertknight says:


    Forget IndyRef2 and opt for the simple process of UK GE resulting in SNP securing >50% of votes cast and >50% of seats in Scotland = Indy.


  56. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    “The SNP, and the Yes movement, definitely and urgently need a Plan B.”
    Not so at all..
    Anybody that imagines the SNP is not fully aware of the other options (Plan Bs,Plan Cs, call them what you will)is naive in the extreme and has little understanding of the political realities that they are very aware of indeed.

    Plan A is the gold standard road to independence.It is supported by the UN Charter, by the Scottish Claim of Right and even the Smith Commission. It is the route the SNP must follow.
    To presently publicly consider at “Plan B” is a concession and a surrender to the divisionists and confusionists (and those seeking to undermine our FM. Do you think we haven’t noticed?)

    Should the UK government however unequivocally refuse a powerful demand (ie supported by a Scottish majority)for a Section30 we the enter a different ball game. At that point.

    But presently we go powerfully for Plan A.

  57. Tam the Bam. says:


    Your glass is continually ‘half-empty’

    That I should start to lose faith in our most Indy determined blogger…saddens me to my core.

  58. Col.Blimp IV says:

    robertknight 4:55

    Hopefully that is the Plan B that the SNP are keeping under their hat…If it has no place on their agenda, we are in dire need of a second Independence Party at Holyrood.

  59. Tam the Bam. says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 5-14pm

    Say it again Dave!

  60. Lochside says:

    Neil Mackenzie says:
    8 September, 2019 at 4:41 pm
    This article is founded on a capitulation to the propaganda that we don’t have a right to self-determination unless the UK government’

    How many times do people have to understand what national sovereignty is?…First you have to establish by some historical and legal precedent, such as an Act of Union and confirm it with further affirmations of that Sovereignty e.g. a Claim of Right.

    However, if you allow that Sovereignty to be constantly over-ruled , ignored, reduced to a historical oddity, then three hundred years later have a Referendum that confirms that subordinated and non sovereign status, then you are in trouble.

    Particularly, when you have a year later, a loophole of regaining that Sovereign status by having the vast majority of seats and over 50% of the popular vote, but decide that ‘now is not the time ‘ to assert this. But repeat trying over the next 4 x years to keep getting mandates that no longer have any real meaning as you have abandoned your Sovereignty de facto.

    You could well find yourself in a scenario where the dominant partner in that Union over rules your subordinate parliament and legal system and de jure rub your redundant status out of existence and make it constitutionally impossible to ever appeal to the world to recognise you e.g. Catalonia.

    Now do you get it?

    I now believe the SNP are hoping for the ‘nuclear option’…No Deal…total collapse of the UK system politically and economically…a and a grateful phalanx of soft ‘no’s’ and fearties flocking for Indyref. I don’t believe that will happen as the British American Project will ‘manage ‘ the decline so that more political upheaval will be unwelcome to that group of people. Ordinary folk i.e. non politically involved, just want ‘it over with’..unfortunately, I’ve been told that time and time again.

  61. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Tam the Bam.
    It must be difficult when there are so many conflicting positions being posted here, many of them from pretendy supporters who have been sent here by an establishment which understands how powerful Wings has been in our journey.

    However I am more concerned by the good guys who are swallowing the unionist bait.

    As history should inform us it doesn’t matter how high some of our soldiers are never allow your guard to drop.
    In politics total trust is a weakness.

    If anybody imagines our movement is not heavily infiltrated they have no understanding of our enemy.

  62. Doug says:

    @Neil Mackenzie 4:41pm

    Well said.

  63. Alisdair says:

    Fuckng well said, thank you.

  64. Alison Brown says:

    A massive pro Indy vote needed in May 2021 if we are refused Indyref2. We can only be sure of that if we can persuade 50% of YESers to vote SNP 1 Wings 2!! I’m sold. Put it in the manifesto that in that case we move to dissolve the Union.

  65. Doug says:

    Good to see English nationalism on the rise.

  66. Lochside says:

    I see Dave McEwan Hill is back on miscalling anyone who questions the SNP policies for Brexit/Indy again. A Stalinist view of dissent is not a pretty approach for a democratic movement Dave. But you obviously embrace no disagreement with the ‘party line’.

    I objected to the outburst of McCarthyism and lists of ‘suspects’ that broke out on here recently. Yet you are encouraging this mindset again.There are many so-called SNP supporters who trolled too many good free thinkers off this site. I’m not descending into the sad level of invective adopted by the ‘righteous’ on here by naming and shaming these intellectual zealots who brook no disagreement, but since they have disappeared , for what ever reason, the level of debate has risen again.

    People such as you, appear to feel that division over the road map to Indy is somehow unhealthy. Yet that is what made this site so dynamic in the past. I suggest that you stick to analysing and explaining your interpretation of what the SNP leadership’s plan A etc is, rather than attacking people who may be contributing for the first time legitimately. They have a voice too.

  67. vlad (not that one) says:

    starlaw @ 16:21
    There are international laws against keeping and fleecing colonies, serious sanctions can be applied through the UN. … England seems to ready to become a one party state and that will be the end of the UK as the world will not allow this to happen, remember Hitler.

    To expect UN’s or the “world”s help us is breathtakingly naive. The “world” is biased to status quo, embellished by pious hopes and best intentions. Independence can only come from the grass roots, all else is bound to fail.

    Re Adolf: Mercifully England is militarily in no position to emulate Herr Schikelgruber. Even such a simple matter as annexation of Austria might be out of question.

  68. manandboy says:

    Unless it can be shown in clear evidence, that the EU has promised to help Scotland gain independence and secure access to the EU, on condition that the Scottish government helps to reverse Brexit, and no deal Brexit, then I refuse to believe that the Scottish government and the SNP party, are acting wholly and exclusively in Scotland’s best interests.

    Pressure. Fair squeezes the patience out of ye.

  69. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    In all this focus on the clown circus of WM we seem to be (mostly) missing the crucial factor here: the people of Scotland. Things are uncertain right now because there isn’t a clear preference one way or another, indy or Union. But just one poll puts indy a statistical wobble ahead and all hell breaks loose in the BritNat camp. If we are fed up with the ongoing stasis, just think how worried our opponents are. Because they know we only have to win once.

    It seems to me that what people are lacking is clear guidance, someone who can lead the way forward. And the difficulty of the SNP having to “keep its powder dry” is that it makes this impossible to do. Hence the annoyance to many of us – the committed – of the fighting talk with no action. Thankfully there isn’t anyone in the opposite camp, through their rank ineptitude, able to do this either.

    This is the real point about a forthcoming UKGE. Not in the likelihood of producing another fine mess in the clown circus of WM, as it likely will be, but in the opportunity for Nicola and the rest of the SNP to finally come out fighting. To offer a clear and unambiguous way forward that can finally rally the necessary public support.

    Because once public sentiment tilts unambiguously in favour of indy, as I believe it will, it’s “game over” for the BritNats. And they know it.

    And most importantly of all, the people of Scotland will know it.

  70. Robert Louis says:

    Yip. Totally agree with the conclusion, we need a plan B.

    I am frankly astonished that the SNP think by repeatedly asking nicely, Westminster will say ok have your referendum. I mean seriously, just look at what is currently happening down there.

    And here’s the point. We all know an election is imminent, so here is how the SNP should play it. Request section 30, and GET the agreement tied up BEFORE the election. If Westminster refuses, simply state well, we tried, but under our Scottish claim of right, Westminster is blocking democracy, therefore in the forthcoming election, if the Scottish electorate choose a majority of pro independence MP’s, we will regard that as a full mandate for the ending of the treaty of union. Such an approach is totally legitimate, it is forced because Westminster is simply refusing any other option.

    THAT, is how you get political leverage.

    Telling your opponents, you will not do anything whatsoever, except keep repeatedly asking for a section 30, is giving them a cast-iron way to prevent Scottish independence forever. Every single MSP and MP in Scotland could be SNP, and still Nicola would be asking Westminster for a section 30. And having it denied.

    I just do not understand the utter timidity and lack of political strategy of the SNP leadership. It is like they are afraid of their own shadow.

  71. vlad (not that one) says:

    Mea culpa. There is no “e” in Schiklgruber. Profound apologies.

  72. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Dave McEwan Hill said:

    “If anybody imagines our movement is not heavily infiltrated they have no understanding of our enemy.”

    Hmm…I fear that the British might have taken the opportunity to expand their efforts on that front back when the Scottish parliament was being set up.

    It would have been glaringly obvious that an organisation[SNP] that had barely a dozen MP’s, assistants, and HQ staff combined, working for them, was wide open to infiltration, when that number was due to increase exponentially.

    With no evidence, I would be willing to wager that a fair crop of wannabe James Bond and Matta Hari spooks have traveled the uni-researcher-MP/MSP route.

    If I was trying to track them down, I would look first at those who’s cv’s include a spell at an educational establishment in the USA and also the woke-wing.

    There will also be a few confined to a computer screen in some god-forsaken basement of a GCHQ outopost in the frozen north…but I’m not sure that we have much to fear from them.

  73. Colin Alexander says:

    My theory is that the SNP under Ms Sturgeon don’t want independence: they want increased devolution. So, the SNP leadership never wanted to hold an indyref between 2016-21.

    Their 2016 manifesto deliberately put a series of conditions to an indyref that seemed unlikely to happen: that England would vote Leave and Scotland would vote Remain and the UK would drag Scotland out of the EU. Thus, the SNP made no preparations whatsoever for an indyref campaign as they expected the UK would vote Remain.

    The runes all landed the wrong way for the SNP delivering the indyref mandate. The SNP can’t admit they don’t want indy or their vote would plummet.

    So, the SNP have fought tooth and nail to undo that mandate. eg Stop Brexit. They even offered a compromise Soft Brexit, so they could drop indyref, by arguing staying in the Single Market is what they really meant by staying in the EU. That appears to have failed.

    So, the SNP now seek an s30, without needing one, in the hope and expectation that it will be refused. The FM insists no indyref without an s30.

    The SNP will use that s30 refusal, or UK refusal to respond, as the excuse to not hold an indyref and try and pin the blame on the UK Govt.

    They will then seek another devolution mandate at Holyrood in 2021. That’s why Stu’s idea of a Wings Party has rattled the SNP and its acolytes by threatening their plans for devolution administration for 2021 onward.

  74. Ronnie says:

    Based on their performance to date I don’t believe the SNP have any cogent plan. I’m so fed up waiting for any sort of progress that I (reluctantly) chucked my party membership about 3 months ago.

  75. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Colin Alexander

    They can’t possibly have infiltrated the SNP to that extent…but I suspect you know that…LoL!

  76. Col.Blimp IV says:

    My God…They are everywhere!

  77. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Must have anoyed them by saying “we have nothing to fear”.

  78. chicmac says:

    We are rapidly approaching the crunch point I predicted the minute Boris Johnston became PM.

    If the judiciary sides with him, that he can by whatever mechanism, ignore a parliamentary instruction which has gone through due process, then the only thing left to save parliamentary democracy is the constabulary and military.

    And they will only do so if there is massive public unrest.

  79. Iain mhor says:

    I know Stu is wondering what “Plan B” is, or what solution the SNP in particular might effectively enact. I’m also aware of the recent proposal for a “Wings List” party.
    To my mind, that must have been predicated on the SNP and independence support not having collapsed and a referendum not having been held, prior to 2021.

    So, inferring that is a tacit acceptance of a ‘Long Game’ for Independence – I wonder what Stu thinks a hypothetical political situation might be in 2021 and what the effective “Plan B” might be, that ‘Wings List’ is to facilitate.

    Risking the Hammers – I think by now Rev’, I am becoming aware, through numerous inciteful posts, of what you don’t think will be effective and of what you disapprove – is there any chance of an article discussing a solution you would like to see happen.

  80. mr thms says:

    Putting the cart before the horse does not work.

    Scotland must be dragged out of the EU against its will, and for its people to lose its EU citizenship with all the rights that entails before any Referendum on independence.

    Should the EU grant a further extension, the GE produce another hung parliament, and People’s Vote produce an identical result. It would take several years for the UK to leave the EU if it ever does!

    Also, the UK government has repealed the EU Communities Act 1972 and replaced it with the EU Withdrawal Act 2018.

    That put EU law into UK law.

    I cannot see any new UK government wanting the new Act to be repealed and the previous one resurrected.

    Also, devolved powers the EU has responsibility for will be returning to Scotland.

    There are new civil service hubs in Edinburgh and Glasgow for new departments moving from Whitehall

    The few returning powers the UK government want a UK wide framework, require the consent of the Scottish Parliament.

    I recall reading a UK government report on progress of talks with the devolved governments claiming the Scottish government had agreed a framework on all but four and that progress on the last four was being made.

    Odd that these talks are not reported…

  81. starlaw says:

    Vlad 16;21

    The annexing of Ireland might not.

  82. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Lochside at 5.48

    Perhaps you can indicate where I attacked anybody who attacks the SNP line.
    I am entirely entitled to attack or defend the “SNP line” as I see fit and have done both at regular intervals.

    I am also entiteld to believe that “Plan B” is naive divisive bullshit AT THIS POINT which is made clear if you understand my post.
    Which I’m sure you do.

  83. ElGordo says:

  84. Graf Midgehunter says:


    “Re Adolf: Mercifully England is militarily in no position to emulate Herr Schikelgruber. Even such a simple matter as annexation of Austria might be out of question.”

    Vlad. I didn’t know England was interested in annexing Austria, has Boris J come up with something new..??

    “Mea culpa. There is no “e” in Schiklgruber. Profound apologies”

    Vlad, there is. It’s between b and r

    BTW, the daddy of Adolf was a Schicklgruber. Austrian spelling. 😉

  85. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Neil Mackenzie at 4.41

    Hallelujah. Somebody who gets it.Thank you.

    The UN Charter (to which the UK, a member of the Security Council, is an original signatory) the Scottish Claim of Right which passed unopposed on 4th July last year in Parliament and even the Smith Commission (final paragraph) makes the UK refusing “unsustainable” as Nicola pointed out.

  86. Col.Blimp IV says:


    Fortunately I do not suffer from photosensitive epilepsy … I’m sure that some do, or they wouldn’t keep warning people about it on the telly.

  87. Colin Alexander says:

    mr thms

    I politely suggest you are mistaken. UK Parliament would only be required to consult and seek approval from the Scottish Parliament.

    The EU Withdrawal Act says that basically Holyrood’s answers are interpreted thus:

    Yes = yes

    Consent refused = yes

    No response = yes.

  88. Lochside says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    8 September, 2019 at 7:37 pm
    Neil Mackenzie at 4.41

    Hallelujah. Somebody who gets it.Thank you.

    The UN Charter (to which the UK, a member of the Security Council, is an original signatory) the Scottish Claim of Right which passed unopposed on 4th July last year in Parliament and even the Smith Commission (final paragraph) makes the UK refusing “unsustainable” as Nicola pointed out.’

    Spain is a signatory to the UN Charter. The UN celebrated its signing in Spain of the 71st anniversary in 2016.
    The Smith Commision…yeah that really means a lot…the unchallenged ‘claim of Right…guess why the gangsters in the HOC ignored it when they could have voted it down? because it was irrelevant, a sham, we had already asserted our ‘sovereignty’ by rejecting it and defining ourselves as slaves in 2014.

    And your point is Dave?

  89. mr thms says:

    That is the impression that the UK parliament likes to give.

    In the same week that David Cameron was in Brussels negotiating with the EU over new deal (Brexit Lite) which would have been the outcome had the UK voted remain, the Scottish government announced..

    The Scottish and EU referendums are connected.

  90. Cubby says:


    Spot on. It is clear that Sturgeon is trying to stop Scotland getting independence. Do you think she is a secret agent of the British state? Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon 006. Reporting for duty when she goes down to London.

  91. Colin Alexander says:

    Neil Mackenzie

    Dave McEwan Hill (Nice to see you back).

    I don’t agree with the view that the UK would cave in to pressure from the UN, (assuming the UN could and would rule in Scotland’s favour).

    Are the UN gonnae send in the Blue Helmets to give Scotland an indyref?

    By the way, how’s the Chagos Islanders getting on since the UN ruled the Chagos Islands belongs to sovereign Mauritius?

    Has the UK bowed to international pressure to comply with that UN legal ruling?

    No !

  92. bowanarrow says:

    “The revs blogpost in 2016 stating that attempts to,
    “game” the Holyrood voting system were a “mug’s game””.
    What has changed?
    Apart from a new party is in the offing.
    Come on!!

  93. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexander at 8.09

    Don’t be bloody silly.

  94. Nana says:


    Chatter tonight over whether Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings cd declare a national emergency by using part 2 (Emergency Powers) of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 seek to scrap the European Union (Withdrawal) (No6) Act 2019 and thereby avoid having to apply for extension?

  95. Nana says:

    Follow up to the above

    No, the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 does not come to the aid of Brexiters

    This much-misunderstood statute does not say what the Brexiters think it says

    Will try to find time this week to set out what that Act does say

  96. Willie says:

    Makes you wonder if there is any sense in voting SNP.

    We got 56 out of 59 MPs and what did we do with. Absolutely nothing.

    Since then, and still with a majority of Scottish Westminster MPs, together with an independence majority in Hollyrood, we do nothing.

    So what would another super majority achieve?

    The bottle has gone, the revolution trap is the comfort and the MPs are happy to play in the Westminster midden

    Time for a Wings party to increase the indpendence vote in Hollyrood.

    Would smarten up the comfortable time servers too.

  97. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander

    Reading some of the posts on Wings recently you may be able to sell quite a few of your “make Scotland great again” “SNP baaad” “Sturgeon out” baseball caps. Only problem is not on the 5th of October in Edinburgh. Best try the Tory conference I am sure you will get a warm welcome.

  98. Ken500 says:

    There is no mystic meg. Even intentions change from day to day. Just more voters good intentions. Another IndyRef will happen when people in Scotland vote for it. Not jumping the gun. Successful campaigns happen one campaign at a time. One day at a time. Especially in this complete and utter mess. The Tories unionist complete and utter shambles. They could not make a bigger mess. The Westminster complete imbeciles. Just as well support for SNP/Independence is increasing. Demographics. Gives Scotland a better chance of stability. Smart folk.

    Polls can be wrong. Especially in tight margins. Used by illegal fraudsters and money launderers to manipulated the vote. The bookies a mug’s game are more accurate. Or a donkey’s tail. Throw of the dice.

    Confusing a GE result and a Ref result are not compatible or helpful, without qualification. Quite different.

  99. Daisy Walker says:

    Meanwhile I see over on Ian Dunts twitter account. Gove is looking at deploying 1600 troops to deliver fuel under Civil Contingencies Act/or Emergency Act – sorry can’t remember exactly which act… and LibDem leader is speaking to re likes of Rory the Tory to see about reaching a deal whereby the LD’s don’t stand in the recently IndyConservative seats.

    Some things however, have not changed.

    A S30 is an agreement for both sides to respect and uphold the results of a Scottish IndyRef2.

    One side cannot be trusted in any shape or form to uphold such a treaty – and for evidence of this we need only look at the Chago Islands, or Eire and Northern Ireland WA.

    A S30 order would not be worth the paper it was written on, and would not last for as long as it took the ink to dry, pending England’s interests lay elsewhere. (wee spoiler – England can’t afford to lose Scotland, we pay the UK’s bills).

    Seeking a S30 order is like begging for a level playing field – when the game is well underway, in the second half and we should be firing in goals at every turn.

    Other things that have not changed – 31/10/19 we leave the EU with No Deal – unless A50 is revoked (and its not being proposed anymore at WM), or a deal (most likely Terrible Mays deal resurrected) is voted through – and that will be time consuming.

    Parliament is still all set to prorogue between 9 – 14th September until 14th October when there follows up to 6 days of ‘debate’ about the Queens speech.

    Under the fixed term parliaments act – 25 working days are required – absolute minimum – to call a GE. I worked it out last time and 13/9/19 seems to be D day for calling it to happen before Brexit Day.

    The PM – is legally obliged (but might not) to negotiate an extension of A50 for us with the EU – though I’m sure we would all rather he was dead in a ditch. I can’t think of anyone worse or less trustworthy to do this. The EU is under no obligation to grant it – and why would they, it will just prolong the agony. That talk is scheduled for 17/10/19.

    Labour don’t want a GE – because they’re going to lose in England.

    None of the English parties want a GE because the SNP are going to win big, in Scotland.

    None of them are going to sign any form of mandate to grant a S30 order to Scotland before a GE – because it will leak to the papers, and they will lose votes in England because of it. As they are not in power, when they do come into power, that contract will be null and void because ‘events/circumstances’ have changed.

    A GE before 31/10/19 looks incredibly far fetched now. An orderly deal looks unlikely.

    The ensuing Westminster disruption will be grist to the mill for a No Deal Chaotic leaving, chaos means Civil Contingencies Act being invoked, across the UK. Which means Holyrood and Westminster and the courts being shut.

    All the plan A’s and plan B’s and C’s are relying (as far as I can see) on what our manifesto would be in a GE. More pleading for a S30, or all out declaration of a vote for us is a vote for Indy, and every shade in between.

    We will be lucky to get a chance to have any of them.

  100. Colin Alexander says:


    In homage to Dave McEwan Hill for showing himself to be the bigger man, I’d like to quote him:

    “Don’t be bloody silly”.

  101. Terry callachan says:

    Without the SNP there will be no Scottish independence
    The SNP is at the forefront of the Scottish independence campaign

    Without Nicola Sturgeon there will be no Scottish independence in the near future
    A new leader of the SNP at such a crucial time in UK politics would be a devastating setback

    Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP will lead us to Scottish independence all we have to do is keep cool heads and avoid attacking other Scottish independence supporters

    You may not agree with all the different points of view but surely you see that keeping every vote onside is essential

    Let’s do it

  102. Ken500 says:

    Budgets cuts stopped 2016. Now 2019. Yearly budget considerations?

    Split the vote between SNP and Wings could lose a safe, consistent majority, A political Party needs a manifesto etc. and funds. To obey electoral rules. Not a lot of mavericks. Just confuses voters, An increasing mess of disillusionment? Despite good intentions? Not helpful? might be a set back. Or a step back.

    Campaign to change the voting system. To one voters and everyone else understands. Not D’Hond’t. Just ridiculous. A complete non mandated unionist mess. Leslie Evans.

  103. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Willie at 8.22

    Is that “Willie” as in short for William or “Willie” as in something entirely different.

  104. Ken500 says:

    An S30 order can be obtained through the Courts because Scotland has been unfairly treated under International Law. Ie EU/UN. Right to self determination and self government if voters vote for it. The reason (limited) Devolution was achieved. The same argument/issue. The Scottish Convention/Assembly can achieve this once again. Concerned citizens. The reason it was set up again?

    People in Scotland can go outwith/bypass Westminster governance and petition the EU/UN. It has been done before successfully, many times, and can be done again. Under International Law/Treaty. Sanctions and judgements can be placed on (UK) governments that do not agree to uphold International Law. Change their intentions. The EU know what’s going on, The Westminster government breaking the Law. A government that makes the Law breaks the Law. Breaking EU/International Law. Total. Corruption. Punishable by Law.

  105. Ken500 says:

    The reason why the SNP is popular and successful. Is because they do not lie but stick to manifesto promises. Wherever possible. Uphold them. The reason they are trusted. They do not lie. The only Party in the UK that do try not to break electoral promises. Even from some voters who do not support Independence. They too believe the SNP can be trusted more caring management.

  106. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    SNP branches being primed now for GE within 10 weeks. Independence will be central theme.
    Be on the doors and round the people shortly.
    Probably meet Colin Alexander. Aye,right

  107. Lenny Hartley says:

    Daisy Walker , i said the other day that there was no concensus in the EU to grant an extension, the BBC website is reporting (sorry not linking to it) that France will reject a request unless there is political stability. Cant see that happening for a while!

  108. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander@8.50pm

    “Don’t be a bloody Britnat”

  109. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Waht I have recognised over the past couple of years is that if sombody makes a good and telling point the pretendy friends are all over it – giving the game away.

  110. Cubby says:


    “Makes you wonder if there is any sense in voting SNP”. Not if you are a Britnat. Are you Willie?

  111. Shug says:

    Whats with the outburst of violence at orange/republican marches in glasgow
    Is somone winding them up
    Are thw police watching who is winding them up or are they looking the other way

  112. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Dave McEwan Hill says:
    8 September, 2019 at 9:22 pm
    SNP branches being primed now for GE within 10 weeks.

    So, second week in November ish?

    If there is a No Deal Brexit that is likely to be during peak disruption time I suspect, if not in Scotland then in South England.

  113. Famous15 says:

    Shug 9.44.

    Exactly what occurred to me when that slimebag Annie Wells MSP conservative raised the issue at FMQ’s.

    SectRianistic Orange pretendy outrage is all the Tories have left. but still potent if not handled sensitively.

    Yes this is the 21 st century!

  114. McDuff says:

    So you are privy to the SNP`s inner sanctum, they call you up and keep you in the loop about their supposed plan b`s and c`s, you alone know their strategy Gosh.
    You think you are on some higher intellectual plane calling those of us who dare to question the SNP as naïve, pretendy supporters and trolls. Well we are not answerable to you or anyone else for our opinions and after forty years of supporting the SNP I for one don’t care to be lectured by an arrogant twit who hasn’t the grace to respect other opinions without reverting to petty name calling.

  115. Ealasaid says:

    In-D-Car Gordon Ross 8.9.19 – Lib dems are doing deals with expelled Tories in upcoming elections

  116. frogesque says:

    Have said this before but bears repeating:

    Power, real power, is taken not given.

    We have to get off our arses!

  117. chicmac says:

    It is fairly straightforward, although laborious, matter to find out exactly what would have happened for various imagined transfers of SNP list votes to third parties on the list.

    I did so myself for the 2011 result.

    What I found was that even if 30% of the the SNP list votes were at that time transferred to third party recipients it would only have resulted in a net gain to total pro-indy MSps of 2

    If 50% were transferred, you start to get a significant effect. At that time it would have increased the indy MSP total by 11.

    If 100% of SNP list votes were transferred to other* pro-indy parties then you would have got something like 96 pro-indy MSPs that is about +25.

    So the process is potentially very successful but ONLY if a large percentage of SNP list voters can be persuaded to do so.

    In 2016 I didn’t have the time to do a full analysis, so instead I just did the reverse scenario, i.e. calculating what would have happened if all the list Green voters had instead listened to the vocal consensus at the time and voted SNP on the list instead. It showed that the total pro indy MSP total would have been reduced to dangerous levels although the SNP would then have scraped an outright majority.

    * The target party(s) does not really matter. In 2011 it was the Greens and SSP, but the number of parties does. 2 is better than 1, 3 not so sure 4 and above and you are splitting the vote adversarily.

  118. Colin Alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    With all your years in politics, tell us please:

    Before the devolution Scottish Parliament was created 20 years ago, by which political / democratic means did the SNP seek to establish Scotland’s people had decided to dissolve the Union?

  119. Famous15 says:

    Also that other slimebag Historywoman labelled all English forIndy supporters as catholic or more catholic than the Pope.

    It was only later reflection that made me think she was labelling them as Jacobites.

    May we be protected from the Tory Unionist separatist disruptive discordant slimebags.

    I really am not liking the result at Culloden even though my clan supported the Hanovarians.

  120. Mary McCabe says:

    None of the Unionist parties will ever give us a Section 30 order (even if, like Labour, they temporarily promise us one). No Prime Minister wants to have as a personal legacy that England’s 300-year control over Scotland was lost on his/her watch.

    Without a Section 30 order from the UK Government it’s unlikely that any advisory referendum / UDI would be recognised by the world. Bodies such as the UN and EU pay lip-service to the right to self-determination. However in practical terms – as we saw with Catalonia – it’s all about current treaties and, ultimately, might is right.

    Our best plan meantime is to try to develop international friendships – trade links, educational and academic exchanges etc. – as fast as the UK Government is shedding its own. We’re helped by the fact that our Scottish Government comes across as more ethically and ecologically progressive than the UK Government.

    The Scottish Government has been forging such links for a long time. This has the UK Government worried to the extent that it’s stopped funding Nicola’s trips abroad and has banned the Scottish civil servants from going abroad. Three cheers to the Scottish Civil Service for ignoring this attempt to isolate us in the world.

  121. Hamish100 says:

    All those non snp members telling the SNP what to do.

    Thanks guys but we can choose to ignore the unionist trollers and the could not run a ménage Scottish socialist workers!!

  122. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    McDuff at 10.02

    Rather proving my point. Thanks

    Perhaps you can find some example of me actually abusing anybody.

  123. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Mary McCabe at 10.23

    “None of the Unionist parties will ever give us a Section 30 order”

    How do you know?

  124. Colin Alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    Am I correct in saying that for many many years, SNP policy was: The election of a majority of SNP MPs would be regarded as the SNP having a mandate to open independence negotiations with the UK Govt?

    Which means the majority SNP MPs would effectively be representing the sovereignty of the people of Scotland?

    Am I also correct that the plan was that the provisional Sovereign Scottish Govt would later hold an indyref to confirm independence? No s30 or UK Govt consent required.

    If that was valid then, why is it not valid now?

  125. Colin Alexander says:

    Is the election of a majority of SNP MPs no longer valid as a mandate for taking sovereignty away from Westminster and back to Scotland, because the SNP can now achieve a majority of SNP MPs?

  126. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexander at 10.40

    Exactly. It was the case until the SNP changed it.
    You know. As you do as politics moves on.
    Any other questions?

  127. Cubby says:

    This post on Wings is in my opinion the poorest I have ever read. Pity considering all the brilliant posts that have gone before.

    There is a strong element of Dads Army about it – we’re doomed doomed I tell you. Essexexile will be on soon to say “I told you so” ” we’re all doomed doomed.” Independence no more will be the Proclaimers new song etc etc

  128. Col.Blimp IV says:


    Hey, credit where credit is due, there was a time when the Socialist Workers were rabid Scotland deniers, and would justify their position with pish like :

    “We’ve more in common with the working people of Liverpool and Leeds than we have with the Duke of Buccleuch”. while advocating self determination for all people everywhere except in their own country.

    That is no longer the case.

  129. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander@10.40pm

    You know all that. I know all that. It has been well aired on Wings before. So why are you raising the question now. Oh that’s right you are a shit stirring Britnat.

  130. Col.Blimp IV says:

    highlight text – right click – select “go to..”

  131. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @DMH, Daisy Walker and others –

    What happened here on Friday night was shocking and, I’m sure, upsetting for many (including Rev) but it had to happen eventually. The tension in this place has been building for months.

    I’m not a precise thinker. I don’t do ‘detail’ very well and I find anything involving stats really quite difficult. Mibbes just laziness on my part but there it is. That’s why I can’t offer any thoughts on the substance of this post.

    But that doesn’t stop me having an opinion, and I have to filter pure ‘opinion’ to find out whether or not there’s anything there which could be of use to those who can do the ‘stats & details’ stuff. Seems to make sense, that we pool whatever we have, right?

    But that’s where it fuckin hits the buffers…

    The idea that we co-operate – given that we all want the same thing – is simply not acceptable to some in the Yes movement. Because they want it all, and they want it their way.

    They’ll happily snaffle ‘big vision’ rhetoric and ideals from others, and incorporate whatever details happen to serve their particular agenda, help to make it all more effective. But the idea that any groups or individual players should get their hands anywhere near levers of actual power is a complete no-no – that power is the birthright of ‘those and such as those’ within the whole Yes/Indy movement, and we footsoldiers are nothing more than the muscle (intellectual and physical) required to put them where they feel entitled to be.



    (They know who they are, and so do a lot of regulars here. Some of them used to *be* regulars here!)

    Must be so tempting, eh? You can see indy drawing closer…so close you can taste it…the rallies grow bigger and bigger…the British State is committing death by a thousand cuts…Brexit is causing mayhem…

    All you have to do is sit tight, maintain undying, unquestioning allegiance to SNP – if you’re ‘in there’, nae danger. You’ll get a gig when independence is secured.

    How could you not be rewarded?

    It’s unthinkable!

    The idea that such careerist cynics could be using all of us to ease their progress into public life makes me want to fuckin honk my actual guts up, but it has to be factored in to any equation by those serious about calculating the likelihood of indy happening anytime soon.

    If Scotland does become independent? we’ll have to deal with another configuration of the same cunts who’ve always held power in this country. For them it’ll just be be ‘Business As Usual’, minor tweaks required, nothing too tiresome…

    This place means nothing to such characters, even if they read it secretly at each and every opportunity. The dismissive tone of Nicola to the WOS ‘party’ idea speaks volumes.

    Sorry to be so gloomy, but that’s how I’m seeing it all right now. I hope I’m properly wrong.

    (I’ve just read this again before hitting ‘submit’ – pretty sure I haven’t named anyone, but you’ll know who I mean anyway.)


  132. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Well “Colin Alexander” is out in force again, I see. Quite an opportunity for the sower of confusion. Accuses the SNP of being content with “devolution” =pshaw= when “better devo” was once (among others) his big thing whilst that canard still had a feather or two and a vain hope to fly. Some of us have had our quibbles around the edges of SNP strategy, but if anyone believes Wormtongue and his fantastical musings they need their head examined.

    As to the current ruckus, “S.30 or no S.30?”, let’s leave it be for now. There will be a UKGE before long, after the current UKGov has been humiliated just a little more, and the more pressing questions will be such as “will Farage’s little pirate crew help wreck the Torn Tories?” and “Just how many gains will the SNP get?”.

    It’s a simple matter of priorities. First things first. The most important of which is that the SNP have clearly every intention of coming out fighting for independence this time, and will achieve a significant gain that will further demoralise our opponents and show the world that they have only one leg to stand on. A wooden leg full of woodworm. So quit squabbling and fantasizing please, and focus on that one important next step.

    If the rest of the UK descends into another slough of parliamentary directionless dithering, so what? Our solution doesn’t lie there, nd never did. It will merely further demonstrate that the UK doesn’t have broad shoulders but actually none at all, and emphasise to all that we are our own safe haven and a sound way forward.

  133. robertknight says:

    Said it before…

    If during the next few weeks, either side of Halloween, there’s a UK GE, all the SNP need to to secure Indy is as follows…

    Cover the country 2′ deep in election leaflets with the following manifesto pledge:

    “If over 50% of the votes cast in Scotland AND over 50% of Scottish constituency seats are won by the Scottish National Party at the UK General Election on (insert date), the SNP will appoint a cross-party and cross-community ‘Scottish Grand Committee’ to return to Scotland the status of an Independent Sovereign State, with membership of international organisations, including NATO and the EU, to be determined by the citizens of the Kingdom of Scotland.


    No need for a ‘Section 30 Order’as there’s no longer a need for an IndyRef2.

    The SNP won 50% of the vote AND 95% of the seats in 2015…

    Get both the majority of seats AND votes and that leaves no wriggle room for the “Ah yes, but…” brigade.

  134. yesindyref2 says:

    Global Thermonuclear War.

    Would anyone like a nice game of chess?

  135. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    robertknight @ 23:22:

    Said it before.

    Oh, we did notice.

    But politics isn’t as simple as that. There is no need to nail ourselves to any figure in advance, it only gives our opponents another superfluous means to scoff if we somehow fail to clear some ambitious self-erected hurdle. No-one with any sense would do that unless they were pretty damn sure it was going to be surpssed. Do you? (No, didn’t think so. How could you? How could anyone?)

    The result, whatever it is, will speak for itself. And if it does deliver something more spectacular than we have any right to expect from a UKGE with all its London bias and other distractions, then we can make a very tasty meal of it anyway.

    That at least is simple.

  136. Daisy Walker says:

    Worth a look over on twitter GetReatTodayUK, also Jo Maughan QC.

  137. Ruglonian says:

    *Wings stall info*

    The Wings promotional stall was very warmly received by the Perthonians, and all visitors to the beautiful city, yesterday.

    The sun was shining and we heard that the marchers got a great welcome, with folk lining the streets and hanging out of windows along their whole route – another cracking day for the indy grassroots!

    Again, there was lots of positive discussion about the Wings Party proposition, and generally about how the debate has promoted a more thorough understanding of the Holyrood system – Wingers are a bright bunch 🙂

    Many thanks to all our volunteers for helping to setup and run our wee operation – special mentions to our stars Liz G and Ronnie A, and to Dan our personal Perth greeter.
    Everyone’s input is appreciated, no matter how small – that’s what makes a successful collective!

    Brilliant to see so many btl folk popping by for a gab too (stay tuned for news of the next Wingers social!)

    Thanks also to everyone who donated their pennies in exchange for some of those famous Anderson insults (and a free badge).
    Remember that if you’re looking for campaign material to distribute around your local area then we’ve got loads, so bring a big bag next time.

    Next stop before Edinburgh is Hope Over Fear’s George Square Glasgow rally on 21/9 – meeting for setup at 9am at the Walter Scott monument in the centre of the Square – see you there!

  138. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The reason the SNP dropped the GE option is a very simple and obvious one. A GE is not fought on a single issue and it is much more difficult to get a majority vote for independence as many folk,some of then actually independence supporters,vote for the party that have always supported in a GE.
    It’s normal party loyalty.

    It is much easier and more sensible to establish a majority for independence in a single issue referendum.

    Many countries have gone independent on a parliamntary vote but that has been in cases where and obvious, long term and demonstrable majority of their country’s people have supported independence.

  139. Colin Alexander says:

    If Indyref has to be the gold standard for international recognition of an independent Scotland, then so be it.

    But achieve it by exercising Scottish Sovereignty, through obtaining a mandate from the people of Scotland for the SNP to exercise Scotland’s sovereign power to hold an indyref.

    No permission should be sought from the UK, if people of Scotland are asked and give their sovereign mandate for Scotland to hold an indyref.

    This would be a Scotland only indyref. Nothing to do with the UK state. It would be Scotland’s people exercising their Claim of Right.

    No asking permission, no seeking of an s30, no subservience:

    Scotland exercising her sovereignty.

  140. defo says:

    Asking permission!
    From who/what?
    After witnessing the anti-democratic shenanigans thrown up by Cameron’s Brexit shambles?
    Please Sir, can I have some more?

    Returning 30+ MP’s is all we need, if that’s how it’s put to the people of Scotland.

    Rest easy, the people of this disunited Kingdom will get what they voted for in 2016. The inevitable upcoming GE will drive the process on

    Who actually gives a flying feck what Corbyn thinks today, or tomorrow!

  141. Alex Birnie says:

    Let’s imagine that the SNP win 51 seats at the (likely) upcoming GE, and that Sturgeon (as promised) officially requests a section 30 order, under the terms of the Scotland Act, so that a referendum can be held. Let’s not forget, she has not formally requested one yet. Let’s suppose that the UK government refuses, and that the Supreme Court backs the UK government in the inevitable lawsuit, brought by the SG.
    There are (it seems to me), only three options left.

    1. Run an “unofficial” referendum.
    2. Wait for the next GE and then declare in the SNP manifesto that a repeat performance of 50+ seats would trigger a Declaration of Independence.
    3. The SNP put a similar promise in their manifesto for the 2021 Holyrood election.

    No.1 is problematic, because it is probable that unionists would boycott such a referendum, and international recognition of any subsequent Declaration of Independence would be doubtful.

    No 2 would be a good option, but the yes movement is becoming tired of waiting, and ….. events …

    No 3 would be my preferred option, because it is likely to be sooner than the next GE, and it would be a purely Scottish affair. Wrt the option of Wings starting a new party, I am not as pessimistic as James Kelly of “Scot Goes Pop!”, because Wings has a huge footprint in the yes movement, and it would (IMO) have a better chance of succeeding than Solidarity or RISE had in 2016, and at the time, (as we all remember), Stu pooh-poohed the idea of “gaming” the D’Hondt system. Everything depends on the question asked in the poll that Stu has promised before the decision to launch the party is made. I agree with James Kelly, that the question should be:-

    If the following parties stood on the regional list ballot, who would you vote for?
    Scottish National Party (SNP)
    Liberal Democrats
    Wings Over Scotland
    Brexit Party
    Change UK

    If polling shows that a Wings party wouldn’t reach the “seat-winning threshold, (around 5%), Stu has promised not to form a party, in case it harms the number of indy seats. If the figures show that this figure would be exceeded, then I would say go for it. To reiterate, asking the right question is crucial. Stu should not stand as a candidate for the Wings party (IMO). He is too divisive a figure (IMO), and not standing would preserve his status as a voice speaking to power, and would prevent accusations of self interest being levelled against him.

  142. Schrodingers cat says:


    Perthonian see Perthite

  143. Ruglonian says:

    Schrodinger – Damn, i was going with Perther until I was, apparently not, corrected on Saturday 😀

  144. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood, I get where your coming from and I’ve felt the same at times – and been deeply hurt by the name calling – and I’m also no saint and have lost my tempter too.

    Well, its darkest the hour before dawn.

    Brexshit is so big, there really isn’t going to be time for ‘business as usual’ tribal, gatekeeping stuff. I think its going to sweep aside nearly all party plans to be honest, including the SNP’s.

    Its going to be all hands to the pump, and we shall be very grateful for them all – regardless of previous disagreements over policy – when the time comes, (don’t look at your watch).

    Some things to see positively:

    England is in the mix now – 50/50. That’s 55 million people the British Establishment now have to ‘manage’. All of them are disgruntled.

    Wales – the Dragon is stirring. Even more of a split for the British Secret Service to manage.

    The Army: They don’t have the numbers they did in the 70’s. If NI kicks off – or even looks like it – they haven’t got the numbers to occupy it like they did before.

    Police – England’s Police numbers are so low, they are struggling to deal with day to day stuff. They really don’t need riots in any (never mind more than one at a time) major city.And on top of that deal with Operation Stack/food and fuel shortages.

    If Police are the back up plan for NI – they can only ask – not force – for volunteers. They won’t get a lot once the bombs and bullets come out (praying it won’t get to that).

    Scotland’s Police, our numbers are not as bad as England’s. Also not so much pressure/tension in our major cities. Again can’t be forced to go to NI.

    Information – mobile camera phones and internet access. Think Catalonia – the BBC and others tried – and failed – to create a false narrative. They did not succeed.

    Scotland’s people and history – we can and we always have managed to get the ‘real story’ from one end of the country to the other, and more than that, we instinctively look for the real story. England’s culture is much more msn dominated. Information is key.

    If I were a British Nationalist with kind thoughts and genuine love for the whole UK, standing shoulder to shoulder as one, etc… at every stage since 2014 from Cameron’s EVEL onwards I would be pulling my hair out at the stupidity of their tactics. They have doubled down on being bastards. The same tactics that have cost them every single colony in the past, only now its on their own doorstep – and even they are realising they can’t shit there, not with the neighbours looking.

    Now its all falling apart on every single front. Shit or bust indeed.

    When the mainstream news is showing Lord Paton openly decrying his party over English Nationalism – the games up. That is the one thing they could never admit to, anymore than they could openly admit that Scotland pays the bills.

    And last but not least there’s all the YESSERS. We are not going to riot, or panic, or fall apart. We might well quibble about the best route up the mountain, but we’re all agreed its the same mountain. And we are now a significant chunk of the population that is well versed on the political situation. God how they must hate that;)

    And so here we are. Aye standing yet.

  145. Daisy Walker says:

    Its definitely Perthonian… not that I want to start any more disagreements… but you know, there’s a principle here.

  146. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi McDuff at 10:02 pm.

    You asked,
    So you are privy to the SNP`s inner sanctum, they call you up and keep you in the loop about their supposed plan b`s and c`s, you alone know their strategy Gosh.

    Strategy? Here’s a wee quote for you – an extract from an email I received today. (My capitalisation.)

    Dear friend and supporter,

    The next few weeks will be some of the most important in Scotland’s journey to independence.

    Whilst Johnson and his Brexiters attempt to ram through a deeply damaging No Deal Brexit, I and my colleagues will do everything in our power to stop them. If you are interested more on my thoughts, please have a read of my latest e-newsletter here.

    As Scotland is set to be dragged out of the EU against its will, support for independence continues to rise. Poll after poll is showing that Scots are fast changing from No to Yes.

    However, make no mistake: despite the polling, we can never be complacent. A General Election will be called any day now, and it is vital now more than ever that the Scottish people send a loud and clear message to Johnson and Corbyn, that we, the people of Scotland, must have the right to determine our own future.

    This is your opportunity to join us on the election campaign trail in our pursuit of independence. You can be key to helping to make that difference.

    Yours for an independent Scotland,

    Chris Law MP
    Dundee West”

  147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Daisy Walker @ 00:13:

    If I were a British Nationalist […] I would be pulling my hair out at the stupidity of their tactics. […] The same tactics that have cost them every single colony in the past, only now its on their own doorstep…

    Absolutely. That’s the crux of it. Entirely unintentionally, of course, they’re on our side! =laugh=

  148. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Brian Doonthetoon at 12.20

    Thanks. With some of the stuff I have read today I got too pissed off to answer. What gets on my tits (and I don’t have any BTW) is the number of people who have absolutely no idea of what the rest of us are doing almost daily but who think they know whats going on.

  149. Daisy Walker says:

    And just to prove their stupidity, have a look over at Munguins Republic. Article there, woman from NI who ID’s as Irish, being taken to court by the UK telling her she can only be British because she’s from NI.

    This is breaking the Good Friday Agreement. An International Treaty.

    I wonder if they are trying to get NI to go boom. In that way get their state of emergency.

    I’m not saying this to cast disrespect on the SNP or NS – its just the truth. A S30 order – an agreement to respect and honour the Result of an Indy Ref – would not be worth the paper it was written on. There is no respect or honour on that side. Recent events have proved that. Our policy should move on as a result.

  150. Dan says:

    Perth and Dundee folk are Taysiders, so dinae start any pish or we’ll set oor phazers tae malky!

  151. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 00:58,

    It’s a well-known tactic to sow disillusionment and disengagement. And a predictable gaggle of willing hot-headed dupes always helps. Get people so confused and upset that they give up trying.

    In the BritNat case, it’s about all they’ve got left. But it’s backfiring, hurting their own wilting support more!

  152. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Daisy Walker @ 01:05,


    Don’t care right now. Let’s cross one bridge at a time.

  153. Liz g says:

    Daisy Walker @ 1.05
    I agree with ye,there was talk of the strength of the section 30 in the Lord’s in 2014 around the time the polls shifted for Yes. They were wondering if Cameron had the authority to issue the section 30 and if they were actually bound by it!
    They seemed to think they would need to act if a yes vote was returned because it changed the whole UK and no individual Prime Minister could do that unilaterally….
    So even then it was not worth the paper it was written on…
    But the refusal of it could be worth a few votes. 🙂

  154. Liz g says:

    Hamish 100 @ 10.32
    At this moment in time the SNP are the Scottish Government we’re supposed to be telling them what to do!
    That’s the whole point!!!
    Nae membership required.

  155. Patrick Roden says:

    One of the main problems effecting a lot of Yesers, is that we seem to think getting a vote on independence will guarantee us or freedom…

    It won’t!

    The very best poll we have had so far is 52% for yes, so giving the 3% margin of error could take us into No territory, we simply must wait until we have climbed sufficiently enough in the polls to give us our independence.

    If we fail again, it will give Unionists the perfect excuse to demand we wait some unspecified time until we are ‘allowed’ to have another.

    Note to SNP leadership: As a long time Voter/supporter and ex member of the SNP, I find it difficult to even defend you in this thread.

    Your behavior with the trans issues has lost you a huge amount of good will, that will only ever be truly won back again, by removing the SNP members who were behind this movement.

  156. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Patrick Roden @ 02:00,

    Oh, heavens above, here we go again. The 60-percenter catch-22 raises its miserable head once more, just when we need inspiration. When will the ultra-hesitant finally wake up and realise that it’s only after we start campaigning in earnest that we can ever hope to increase support! Without a campaign we will just continue to wallow in inertia, going nowhere. If we don’t believe in ourselves, how can we expect anyone else to believe in us either?

    Yes, of course we have to reckon there’s a decent change of winning through, but equally, a win will never be handed to us on a plate, wrapped in a nice red bow. Never. It’s this kind of defeatist hesitancy that drives me nuts. And judging by public reactions of late, a hell of a lot of other people feel the same frustration and impatience at this kind of thing.

    People admire others who stick up for themselves and have the evident determination to drive something forward. The Leavers may be led by total phoneys, but if every independence supporter had their gumption instead of all this hesitant hand-wringing, we would already be independent by now.

  157. Ghillie says:

    Frankly, I see our pet trolls and moles efforts getting rather flaccid.

    Must try harder.

    Perhaps finding themselves spread too thin. Or now feeling a tad squeamish? Or just getting very very weary.

    Never too late to change your mind 🙂

  158. Ken500 says:

    Increasing use of facilities by females their friends and families by using mixed changing rooms etc. With separate cubicles advantageous for females. Endorsed by the the millions of females that use them, every day with absolutely no bother. For increase access to facilities. A win win situation. Instead of spreading hysterical misinformation. With less likelihood of attack and higher participation.

    Much healthier population all around. Win, win for society. Benefits outweigh any negatives. Or doomsayers. People who do not use them. The prudes. who often do not engage in sport or healthy activities. The couch potatoes. Outraged on behalf of others who do not use them. Or realise the advantages for women, their families and friends of higher participation in many activities. Totally increasing the benefits all round.

    Seriously, trying to predict how people will vote in years time, in ever changing circumstances, is deluded. Especially in the way humans change their minds, repeatedly. A natural human reaction and emotion. Most folk do not know what they will have for their tea tomorrow. Never mind how they will or will not vote in a few months/years time.

    An interesting but pointless wind up. Pollsters fraudulently and illegally ripping off the public. Trying to manipulate the vote. The piper pays the tune. Gaming statistics.

    More people should join the SNP, support, fund and campaign. To increase the 120,000 members who already do. Instead of millions leaving it to others. Or often criticising in the sidelines.

    A constant is support for the SNP/Independence rising. Demographics. How high it has become in just a relative few years. Really surprising. The imbeciles at Westminster getting found out repeatedly. Another one gone, down one down. Another one hits the dust, Not looking too healthy for unfit Johnston. Too much greedy lies. Dishonestly at the forefront. Liars always get found out.

  159. Ken500 says:

    A S30 order can be gained through the Courts because Scotland has been so unequally treated by Westminster imbeciles, under EU/International Law. A right to self determination and self governance cannot be denied. If people vote for it.

    A Convention/assembly can apply and succeed. Or do it not just the SNP (members). The Convention/assembly already set up, was that the cause. Even more easily. It was done before for (limited) Devolution. The Westminster imbeciles had to conform under EU/International Law or face unpleasant sanctions by defying the Law. Lose the right to (UK) representation and privileges, under International Law. Those that make the Law and break the Law face sanctions,

  160. Robert Louis says:

    DMH at 1134pm,

    I understand the point you make about a GE as mandate for indy, I respectfully don’t agree. But, even if I did, why on earth is the Scotgov seeking Westminster’s permission for a referendum?? That is not how you get independence for any country, with Westminster behaving the way it is. OK, it worked in 2014, but it has been steadfastly refused over and over again. So how will a referendum ever happen? do we have to wait possibly many years, until such time as a prime minister in Westminster decides to ‘allow’ a referendum??

    I honestly, just cannot see how the current strategy can work. We should not be repeatedly begging permission. It insuts and ignores Scottish sovereignty and the claim of right, in every possible way. The Scotgov should not ask, they should simply SAY they are going to hold an indyref, name the date start the campaign then Seek a section 30, if it refused, proceed with the referendum anyway. The Scotgov no longer has the luxury of being able to sit back and wait, wait, wait, until Westminster decides to be ‘reasonable. Look at what is happening. This is an emergency.

    This is why indy supporters are getting angry. Like myself and others they see we could be sitting waiting for years for ‘permission’ while Scotland, its businesses and people get utterly shafted by brexit.

    Please convince me otherwise.

  161. Hackalumpoff says:

    See Nana’s links here :

  162. starlaw says:

    Do you think any plans SNP have are going to be shouted from the rooftops.

  163. Heart of Galloway says:

    And meanwhile in a parallel universe Philip Rycroft, ex-top civil servant in the UK gov’s Brexit department is speaking at the David Hume Institute in Edinburgh the nicht.

    His topic? “Brexit and the Union: what next for Scotland in the UK?”.

    An almost tearful Mr Rycroft was given a platform by Shortbread TV this am to warn that unless the current PM and his successors embrace federalism the U.K. Is in danger.

    “It is within the UK Government gift” to do this, said Mr Rycroft, someone to whom the notion that Scotland should be anything other than content with being handed fake beads and baubles as and when our imperial masters see fit, is utterly alien.

    Two things stand out here about which I invite readers to make up their own minds.

    1- BBC Scotland reported this “event” in exactly the same way when Gordon Broon climbs out of his crypt to assail us with his decrepit British nationalism – extensively.

    Yet of the wonderful Perth independence march at which, significantly one would have thought for the media, SNP deputy leader John Swinney addressed 20,000 marchers, absolutely feck all.

    2.- a cursory look at Mr Rycroft’s cv shows he was embedded in senior positions with the Scottish Executive and subsequently the Scottish Government,

    He is an ardent UK nationalist who was employed by an administration whose avowed aim is to break the British state in which he so passionately believes. He is not alone in that belief in the upper echelons in the civil service at Holyrood.

    And I’ll leave that right there.


  164. Motion in Parliament today for early General Election,

    what circumstances could give this any chance of getting passed.

  165. Lochside says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    9 September, 2019 at 12:58 am
    Brian Doonthetoon at 12.20

    Thanks. With some of the stuff I have read today I got too pissed off to answer. What gets on my tits (and I don’t have any BTW) is the number of people who have absolutely no idea of what the rest of us are doing almost daily but who think they know whats going on.’

    And that comment neatly sums up your arrogant and myopic, and dare I say grandiose opinion of yourself in relation to others on this site. Toys firmly back in the pram Dave, you have now continued throughout this site with slights and sneers at anyone that disputes your vision of never ending GE mandates and pointless pleas for Referendums.

    Well I don’t agree, not because I’m a ‘pretendy’ supporter, nor because, like you, I am one of a clique, but as someone who has supported Independence for his whole adult life and is beyond frustration with illogical strategies by the SNP. The Rev, who has far greater time and inclination to explore the outcomes of the current policy has more or less reached the same conclusion that I and others have that the SNP do not want a show down on Independence, at least not in the very near future.

    i believe this is because from 2015 onward they have been bought over by the Westminster puppet show. No-one on here from your coterie of strategists has explained why in 2 x years the SNP lost the initiative to such a degree that 1/2 million votes were shed. To me the answer was obvious: the massive vote by the ‘YES’ electors was turned off by SNP playing the Westminster game e.g. AS leading a sing song of ‘ode to Joy’. Something that only career politicians would think meant anything.

    We voted for change back then. But the SNP decided to change their own rules. And people like you go along with everything that is a denial of what the YES people want because ‘It’s normal party loyalty’. Well many people are not interested in narrow party interests. They are interested in their sovereign European status being taken from them with all the real dangers of food and medicinal shortages..yes even death as a direct consequence of evil English Nationalism yet again stamping on our rights as citizens of Scotland.

    You partly agreed with me on a previous thread about the black ops approach currently taking place in Glasgow to stir up the ‘Loyalist’ mob. But you rejected my analysis that is part of the BritState’s undermining, at all costs, of our movement. In that case, why is it happening? Why is the msm conflating these attacks on Republican marchers ( whom I have no time for either) as ‘equal’. In the same manner they did when the same scurvy mobs attacked our YES youth in George Square?

    The answer is because we are under attack at every level. But our leadership is allowing us to sink into infighting and fear because it is weak and indecisive. Believe me, I would allow all my doubts to evaporate if I could see any chance of a way out of this constitutionally, but I see none.

  166. Bob Mack says:

    Perhaps we should all reflect we are grasping in the darkness for something to aid our path. The bottom line is we are all guessing and offering solutions to obtain a referendum within our own knowledge.

    I am well clued up as many on this site are to the various routes to independence, but like many I know not what the chosen route will be. It calls probably for patience on my part,which is in short supply.
    It also leads me to challenge the views of others on here with my own blinkered view of how indy should be done.

    No doubt there are dozens of others doing the same thing,which causes annoyance and resentment. At least one of us may well be right.

    We need to debate,but we also need to respect the views of others with whom we debate. They hold sincere convictions just as we do.

    There may well be trolls among them, but there may also be genuine indy supporters who see a different route to ourselves.

    This forum is the best thing to happen for an independent Scotland. I would hate to see it sink into acrimonious berating of any dissent to a particular view. We have a common aim,but different route maps. My hope is we all end up at the same destination.

  167. Peter A Bell says:

    Great argument. Wrong conclusion. We don’t need a Plan B. We need a better Plan A. The problem with a creating a Plan B is that this assumes you’re going to get a second bite at the cherry. The attitudes and behaviour of the British political elite strongly suggest that this is not a safe assumption. We would certainly be wise to proceed as if we anticipated getting only one shot; if for no other reason than to eliminate any residual complacency and replace it with the necessary – and unquestionably warranted – sense of urgency that is currently missing from the Scottish Government’s approach.

    What is the common factor in all these electoral calculations which lead to “OUTCOME: NO INDYREF”? Section 30! The problem is not the electoral arithmetic but the Scottish Government’s insistence on adhering to a process which, As WOS has shown, leads in every conceivable, barely conceivable and inconceivable scenario, to “OUTCOME: NO INDYREF” and, therefore, no independence.

    Any outcome which doesn’t lead to the Union being dissolved in the very short term provides the British establishment with opportunities to create new and increasingly intractable obstacles to restoring Scotland’s independence. If we don’t get Plan A right, you can just forget the rest of the alphabet.

    There is no route to independence through the twisting and shifting pathways created and controlled by the British state for the purpose of protecting and preserving the Union. Quite why anybody would think there might be is a total mystery given that this involves disregarding such a glaring contradiction. If we want independence, we must break the Union. And if we are determined to break the Union then we must be prepared to break the rules imposed in the name of and for the sake of the Union. Why is that not obvious?

    There is another common factor in all the scenarios Stu Campbell has prepared. The all lead, not just to “no indyref”, but to the inevitable conclusion that the Section 30 process must fail. And when it fails, we are right back in the position of having to break the rules to break the Union. So why go through all that crap just to end up right back where we are now except with new difficulties to overcome in order to attain our goal?

  168. shug says:

    Well just listening to Call Kaye – giving big push to sectarianism in Glasgow.

    Westminster must be winding up the orange and green factions.

    Thank you Kaye for alerting us

  169. Bob Mack says:

    @Peter A Bell,

    Great post Peter. It’s becoming increasingly obvious that section 30 order has no tacit support among the larger Cabal at Westminster. It would be economic suicide for England should Brexit go ahead with No Deal.

    Who takes the lead in your scenario Peter ?Scottish Government or people. Somebody would have to initiate resistance.

  170. manandboy says:

    Politically, Scotland is in the doldrums, and with no wind in our sails, and no petrol for the outboard, there’s not a lot we can do about it, but wait for a change in the weather.

    Except of course, we could argue about it, with accusations of blame etc. It’s what we do in Scotland. It’s in our DNA. Why be surprised?

    No matter, Independence is coming. It is time.

  171. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Robert Louis at 7.32

    The SNP is not asking for permission to have a referendum. It is going to agree a Section 30 on a referendum it holds (and it can hold as many referendums it likes)which is an agreement from the UK that both sides will honour the result.

    I can’t think of anything more sensible and simpler to understand.

    And I can’t think of anything that embarrasses the UK more. They can’t win on this one.

  172. Bob Mack says:

    @Dave Mcewan Hill,

    I see just one tiny flaw in your argument. The SNP have currently a majority in Westminster (Scottish MPs), and a working majority at Holywood (with Greens) ,but have not used them to go ahead with a referendum since being eldcted.

    Add to that the fact that Nicola has been requesting a section 30 order for the past two years without success,.

    There appears at least to be no appetite from the SNP to travel the route you favour.

  173. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    shug at 9.22

    Exactly. Spot on post. We should call this out right now. The so called “unionbears”are being called out to attack and everybody is getting the blame.

    Sent this to the National

    I have entertained serious doubts about the “riot” in Govan last week. I could not find any photos of any “riot”. There was lots of photos of lots of policemen on the site so I assumed, if there had been a “riot”, those photographers would have captured it for our information.

    Eventually I saw a photo of some policemen and something burning with some guys in black hoods who appeared to be shouting at something in the distance.

    It has now been established that there was no attack on the band or marchers , no physical contact at all as the “protesters” never got within two hundred yards of the march and somebody set some bins on fire. It must have been some “riot” if all those polis only managed to arrest two persons.

    The mainstream media however have elevated this to two huge sets of sectarian yobs engaged in battle though in none of the “yobs” had anything to do with the legal march.

    Similarly two permitted marches the weekend marched entirely peacefully but the mainstream media are quite deliberately misrepresenting aggressive behaviour directed at them as if they were somehow involved in the disorder.

    This has been an establishment plot to reintroduce sectarian worries against us.

    More worrying is the thought that if these “ yobs on call” attack our march in Edinburgh will we get the blame?

  174. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack @3.01pm

    Bob at 4.46pm I asked you a simple and polite question. Any chance of clarification?

    I noted your sentiments in your post of 9.12am this morning.

  175. Bob Mack says:

    Just read your comment.
    Sorry for not replying sooner,but other family business has no timetable.

    The Rev posted the article on his twitter page. I think he was trying to emphasise his concern that the SNP were too docile at present,or were concentrated on other issues.
    That’s the Rev!

  176. Proud Cybernat says:

    ScotGov will soon be able to call a referendum on any matter and the outcome will be legally binding. The legislation for this is going thru Holyrood as I type. To put the outcome of a Yes victory in Indyref2 beyond dispute ScotGov are hoping to get WM to sign S30. Should WM refuse to sign S30 then the issue cannot be decided by internal UK courts – the matter would have to be referred to international courts. I simply cannot see how, having voted for our independence in a legal referendum, any international court could decide against us. If UKGov still refuse then they will surely face the wrath of the international community and find themselves with all manner of sanctions. In short – for Scotland’s Yes vote to eventually win thru, we’re gonna need hauners.

  177. shug says:

    Caller from the National hit the nail on the head – Kaye said there are 20+ republican marches planned – national chap there are 20+ planned but some are religious (Islamic)celebrations, some are young climate activists and a range of other causes – fake news from Kaye.

    Nice wee lady followed by reporting the Perth AUOB march not covered by the BBC – as usual

  178. Bob Mack says:

    @Proud Cybernat,

    The US, China,India, and many other nations ARE CURRENTLY, in defiance of International Court Edicts. The US has actually stated that the International Court has no jurisdiction over anything .

    That is not a guaranteed route, especially with the rise of populism in England. Would Boris or Niger be concerned about defying a court ruling? It appears not.

  179. Bob Mack says:

    Sorry, it was Nigel, not Niger. Predicate xterm strikes again.

  180. Al-Stuart says:


    Just been watching Boris Johnson at a joint podium in Dublin with Eire Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and will need to relisten and read the exact wording but….

    10 Downing Street’s political buffoon has slipped in paraphrased wording of a REUNIFIED IRELAND on certain levels to gloss over the backstop problem “for sanitary reasons”.

    FFS That idiot of a U.K. Prime Minister and Psyco Cummings puppet master are REALLY playing with matches. Lit ones at that.

    WoSers who haven’t seen this summit interview would maybes pick up some interesting points.

    The press are politely spit roasting Boris, so am away back to the television.

  181. manandboy says:

    “… it is vital now more than ever that the Scottish people.. must have the right to determine our own future…
    Chris Law MP
    Dundee West”

    ‘Must have’, Chris? How’s about ‘already have’? As a sovereign nation, Scotland has no need for the implicit request contained in ‘must have’.

    Our starting point is Scotland’s sovereignty. Not England’s.

    Scotland’s is a colonisation by stealth, but colonisation nevertheless. We are just the latest in a long line of colonised countries seeking the restoration of our independence which we had, like all the other ‘British’ Colonies, till the English cast their greedy eyes on us.

    Independence is a demand. Just ask the other 62. Start with India.

  182. galamcennalath says:

    Johnson in Dublin speaking. He can get a ‘deal’ with the EU. He can come up with solutions to the border in Ireland.

    If he’s so confident in a ‘deal’ why is he worried about being forced to ask for an extension? Achieve deal, no extension necessary.

    It’s the same logic as, if there are easy solutions to the border in Ireland, then why is he worried about the backstop? Solve border, no backstop necessary.

    The only conclusion a logical person would come to is, he expects to fail on both accounts and therefore has issues with extension and backstop.

    Does the media employ any logical people?

  183. Hamish100 says:

    The intentional doubters of independence referendum, that attackers of Nicola Sturgeon as First Minister have mistaken the mood of Scotland.

    In my estimation the continued dithering of labour as to what Brexit means to them and how individual labour MP’s will vote, the factional tories infighting with the right wing takeover of its executive has demonstrated more than we could do, the failed state that is the UK.

    What it has shown to Gilbraltarians ( remember them), the Welsh, Irish and Scots that we are all expendable. The respect and support shown to Ireland by the EU the exact opposite shown by Westminster and the English establishment to the Celtic nations.

    We have to watch the continued civil war in part through a right wing press But we are not as gullible as we were post war. We have other sources of information. As I posted last week a unionist to the core rangers supporting labour man openly saying he is going to vote SNP is the true mood of this nation.

    In a few months we will be voting in a GE or Independence referendum. The tories and labour will be punished. Timing is all.

  184. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Bob Mack .at 9:43 am

    You typed,
    Add to that the fact that Nicola has been requesting a section 30 order for the past two years without success,.

    You seem to have inferred from press and TV output (spin/propaganda) that a Section 30 has been asked for.

    No – it hasn’t. There has been no request, only an expression of intention to seek it when the time is right.

  185. Nana says:

    Taoiseach @LeoVaradkar says the Government would oppose the introduction of Direct Rule in Northern Ireland, though he recognises the UK is the sovereign government in Northern Ireland | | Live #brexit blog:

    RTÉ Europe Editor @tconnellyRTE says @LeoVaradkar gave @BorisJohnson a warm welcome, but didn’t hold back in pointing out the problems the UK faces securing a future trade relationship with the EU in the event of a no-deal #Brexit | Live blog:

  186. Bob Mack says:

    If Boris is considering a backstop for Ireland,then he is selling out the DUP. Scotland won’t benefit from this as the Good Friday agreement is protected by the EU and the US.

    They won’t see Scotland has special status.

    It sounds as if Boris is going to throw the DUP to the wolves and try to keep the rest of the UK intact to get his deal.

  187. Socrates MacSporran says:

    When a status quo has been allowed to develop that institutes the interests of a minority so deeply into a system of governance, expansion beyond that minority – genuine, transformative expansion – faces so many obstacles as to become inherently compromised, even preventively so.

    The above is a quote, lifted directly from a story in the Observer. That story concerns World Rugby, the governing body for that sport.

    I would suggest, it refers just as surely to the position Scotland is in as regards the UK, and our gaining our independence. The rules are so-slanted to suit the Union, we will face one almighty battle to release ourselves.

    But, we know it will not be easy, however, it has to be done.

  188. Bob Mack says:

    @Brian doonthetoon,

    Sorry to contradict you Brian ,but you will remember the photograph of Nicola ,feet up on her couch signing that very request following a vote at Holyrood May 2017?.

    Remember now?

  189. Effijy says:

    For all the hysteria demanding SNP action now
    What signals have the party had from the general
    Public that we are ready to support them in any with the
    Required numbers?

    We have a poll showing a margin lead should Indy ref 2
    Take place tomorrow but you can bet the next series of
    False promises the UK Fake News teams and all the Dark
    Money ploughed into the next Cambridge Analytics company
    Will erode that lead.

    This is our last chance for a generation at least.
    We cannot blow until the storm truly rises.

    Look at the First Minister’s Independence Petition launched
    Months ago. She asked for only 300,000 signatures and it currently
    Sits at 278,379.

    Look at the petition requesting UN support for any future referendum.
    It’s struggling to get near 10,000 signatures.

    How about the fund raiser for our Indy Fags at 25% of target?

    You can bet your life MI6-5, Anti terrorist groups, Police, Army and
    UDA are there ready and willing to corrupt any referendum not going their way.

    We need a right wing extremist Tory Government with Bojo the Clown, hater
    Of the Scots as PM. We need a No Deal Brexit and we need all the pain and
    Suffering from it to motivate the many. to sit up and notice demanding change.

    Yes, I practice what I preach in all aspects above.
    I sign, I ask friends to sign, I raise it with new contacts,
    I’m afraid to add up what I’ve Spent on a variety of Independence support groups.

    Today is another step in our journey.
    I’m confident Bojo will get up to more dirty work after today’s vote and
    He just keeps giving to rile people toward to independence path.

    Long live the Fascist White Supremest English Elitist Empire builders as they
    Opening the door to Scotland’s freedom.

  190. Dan says:

    Dogs For Independence Perth AUOB. (apologies if this was posted previously over weekend)

  191. laukat says:

    Seems to be a lot of bluster knocking about over the weekend and various hair brain schemes to avoid asking for an extension. I suspect the only one that is real is altering the withdrawal deal to be a Northern Ireland only backstop.

    If true and if UK parliament votes for it there will be trouble ahead. Obviously the Unionists in Northern Ireland and the West coast of Scotland will go nuts.

    However the economics will drive change more than the immediate reaction. It will put Scottish fisherman and farmers at a massive disadvantage to North Irish counterparts when it comes into play.That would be 2 years post 31st October.

    That would mean that for the next 2 years the Scottish Government can bang away about the negative economic impact and differental treatment leading into the next GE and a Indyref in 2020.

    I suspect if it came to pass it would from an Irish perpsective be seen as unification in all practical terms therefore a very short time period before a unification referendum and the end of Northern Ireland.

    I’ve always though that if Scotland leaves the UK Union that Wales and Northern Ireland won’t be far behind. By the same token if Northern Ireland goes Scotland won’t be far behind. Its not inconcievable that the UK could end without the need for another referendum.

  192. Robert Kerr says:

    When the section 30 request is not granted then it’s time to throw the tea into the harbour!

  193. Hamish100 says:


    Was your photograph taken at equator? Lol

  194. Bob Mack says:

    Wsection 30 order signed by Nicola March 2017. Thought it was May from memory. Mrs May was then PM, so probably got into that thought trap.

  195. Golfnut says:

    @ Dave McEwan Hill.

    Request a Section 30 order.

    Your absolutely right, and rebuttals of this nonsense have been posted here and elsewhere repeatedly.

    Nicola stated that she would seek permission from the Scottish Parliament to agree terms on a Section 30 order.

    I can understand why the media keep running with this drivel, its their job to lie, and misinform the public, but you would think that actual independence supporters would know what she actually said.

    The Scottish Government is constrained by the devolution settlement because that’s what we voted for, its our fault. They have to work with the tools we gave them and despite how blunt and inadequate they are, the SG are doing a damn good job.

    Blame rests with us, because we aren’t constrained or limited by Devolution, we are a Sovereign people with unfortunately many within and out with our ranks who haven’t a clue what that means or how to use it.
    The FM has started a petition, good for her, but its such a shame that it was left to the FM.
    It should have been the Yes movement on every street corner gathering signatures, informing people and educating people just exactly how powerful a voice we have when we act as one. Ordering, not demanding action from our Parliament, to act on our behalf.

    No, maybe not, much easier to blame Nicola.

  196. Iain mhor says:

    Appeals to all and sundry internationally to help ‘Poor Scotland’, are all well and laudable in their sincerity I’m sure. But ‘we’ve bocht aipples aff thon cairt afore’
    In Mr.Peffers absence, I might direct the temporarily forgetful towards Edward I, Phillip IV & Boniface VIII – That worked well didn’t it.
    Two claimed Suzerainty over Scotland and one signed a peace treaty with the other and excluded Scotland from it. Scotland’s international envoy was hung drawn and quartered and Scotland was invaded severally.

    Draw your own conclusions.

    *Scotlands Interregnum (Baliols accession) 1291, Papal Bull 1299 (Scimus Fili), Barons Letter 1301, Treaty of Paris 1303 etcetera.

  197. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@9.52am

    Thanks for the reply.

    I think the question I asked is what is the original source – you mention an article – is it just from unknown sources? Does someone put their name to it that is a credible source or is it just rumour and gossip. If it’s the latter I have to question why do the Britnats work for them.

    My view is that just because the site owner posted something on twitter does that make it true. Evidence to back it up?

  198. Bob Mack says:

    Lord help us.

    Nicola has already requested a Section 30 order. Holyrood voted on it in 2017 and Nicola signed it and sent it to Mrs May. What bit of that is difficult?

    Holyrood has requested a Section 30 which can only come from Westminster who are refusing to engage.
    It is going nowhere.

    Holyrood cannot issue a section 30.

  199. Bob Mack says:


    I cannot help I’m afraid. It is the Rev’s info.

  200. ScotsRenewables says:

    Most of us feel we are closer now to independence than at any time since 1706.

    Yet it is at precisely this point in history that a man we have seen as a pillar of the Indy movement, a force for truth, comes out with some of the most potentially divisive stuff we have heard for a long time.

    Some might wonderSome might find this curious…

  201. Bob Mack says:

    Some might wonder if years of fighting,arguments, fearing trolls and saboteurs have made everybody just a touch paranoid.

    There seems to be a plot or alternate meaning lurking round every corner.

    Every word analysed and scrutinised to death. Every poster vilified if not agreeing to a common concensus or the dominant figures on Wings.

    This is the Rev’s site, He decides what goes on it. We can discuss.

  202. Iain mhor says:

    Perusing the Maltese government website (for reasons) was extremely interesting, as it’s probably the most succinct and accessible asessment I’ve read, for any European country’s preperation for a No-Deal Brexit.
    I think it’s fair to assume an extrapolation for other EU countries.
    I’d summarise, but it’s concise enough to bear reading itself, quite sublime.

  203. galamcennalath says:

    “A former head of the Brexit department has said a new relationship between the Scottish and UK governments is needed to secure the future of the union. …. He suggested a “radical” solution such as moving to a more federal structure might be required to maintain the UK. “

    What is it these people see in their UK that they feel worth saving? Why do they believe that it is in Scotland’s and NI’s best interests to stay in an abusive relationship?

    They want to save their Union, but never offer any reasons other than nostalgia and bigger-is-best reasoning.

    A “more federal structure”? They have had so many chances to take such a route and botched them. If they were serious about restructuring then five years ago was the right time, or earlier. And who wants a federal outcome anyway? No one in England, certainly. And what sort of Scot want their nation and country to be legally redefined as federal state? Only the über Scot-butts.

    The UK is moving fast towards dissolution. Anyone believing otherwise is blinkered or cultist.

  204. Daisy Walker says:

    BREAKING from the Guardians Twitter

    parliament to be prorogued from end of play today until 14/10/19

    Shit or Bust.

  205. Willie Fleming says:

    Reports that No10 is suspending parliament after close of business today.

    Coups just got real.

  206. Jack Murphy says:

    cynicalHighlander said yesterday at 4:55 pm:

    ” So did Broadcasting Scotland Capella. “.

    Thanks for that link cynicalHighlander —-I usually watch Independence Livestream but Broadcasting Scotland has equally made a fine job of the Rally,speeches and music—-picture and audio excellent.
    One hour 18 minutes.

  207. RobertTheTruth says:

    This constant harrying and questioning of meaning and motive by the same few on here is wearisome.

    Posters are pilloried and bullied because a few on here have decided they are not the real thing.

    All the different viewpoints here are an opportunity to rehearse arguments for the real thing. The Socialist argument, the SNP are not always right argument, the legal arguments for sovereignty.

    On the doorsteps for those who campaign, if you came across someone with Colin Alexander’s Socialist stance who has always said he wants Independence, would you engage or say ‘you must be a pretendy supporter because you disagree with the SNP’?

    If someone said they wanted Independence but they took issue with Nicola Sturgeon’s approach, would you say ‘how could you, she has wanted Indy all her life, therefore her stance must be correct?’

    Because these are genuinely some of the answers that occupy BTL on a regular basis.

    To constantly question meaning and to misrepresent what posters say because you do not like them is almost the norm here. It is done under the guise of legitimate questioning but it is nothing of the sort – it is designed to discredit the person by reinforcing the central point that nothing they have to say is worthwhile.

    The ones who do it know who they are and they have no greater rights to an opinion or response than the rest of us.

  208. call me dave says:

    Special deal looking a possibility for Northern Ireland with a ‘customs union’ called er..! Something else. 🙂

    DUP maybe thrown under that London bus. 🙂

    But nothing for you Scotland!
    Ball bounces over the net to us …what do we do?

  209. Bob Mack says:

    2@Robert the Truth,

    I’m half expecting some of them to issue a Prerogative order any day on Wings comments ( smiley thing)

  210. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    “Anchors of our Soul” on the new Skipinnish album is surely the song for our next campaign. Fabulous and moving. Download it now

  211. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    RobertTheTruth at 12.19

    “Colin Alexander’s Socialist stance”
    You are having a joke,right?

  212. Roger says:

    Interesting times, no? The government is short of a majority by a long, long shot – even with Arlene’s Orange band. They are all saying the government is breaking the law, ruining the country, etc, etc. Now if only there was some form of sanction that could be applied…some sort of vote of censure or vote of confidence or something…
    So why don’t they do it?

  213. galamcennalath says:

    An Ireland only backstop was always the EU’s preferred outcome. May rejected it to sook up to the DUP and probably on consideration of the Union itself.

    As I understand it, if NI is allowed to stay closer to the EU than any other part of the UK and given favoured trading arrangements, this is a direct breach of the Treaty of Union.

  214. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert the Truth,

    I think your point has just been proven.

  215. Roger says:

    @Call me dave

    They should throw the DUP under the bus – they’re useless now anyway as even with them the Tories are waaaaaaaaaaaay short of a majority – but hat doesn’t matter as the Opposition lack the nuts to vote them down in a confidence motion.
    The obvious solution to the backstop is a custom’s border in the Irish Sea and not along the border. It makes geographic sense and there already exists such a border for agri products. The Tories would have jumped at that were they not dependent on the DUP. And as for numbskulls who want to blabber on about the ‘integrity of the UK’, Northern Ireland was ALWAYS a place apart. You probably know that NI was the only part of the UK to have it’s own devolved parliament from 1921 to 1972, but did you know that up until about the 198s0 – I forget the exact date – people from the rest of the UK actually needed a work permit to work in NI? Where was the concern for the ‘integrity of the UK’ then?

    Customs border in the Irish Sea, backstop solved, deal done. Oh and just because a few moo cows would be getting their udders felt as they come off the ferry wouldn’t mean that NI wouldn’t still be in the UK – or is that concept too difficult for some to grasp?

  216. galamcennalath says:

    Roger says:

    vote of confidence or something…So why don’t they do it?

    My understanding is that Boris losing a vote of no confidence, or having an election, won’t stop the ‘no deal’ crash out on Hallowe’en.

    I think it’s pretty clear that his plan (Cummings plan?) is to try to run the clock down and avoid being forced to seek an extension. It’s probably too late to guarantee stopping him with censures or elections.

    So, the opposition are attempting to force him to seek an extension should he fail to get a deal.

  217. manandboy says:

    How many people in Scotland remember these jingles:

    ‘A million housewives every day
    pick up a tin of beans and say,
    Beanz Meanz Heinz’.

    ‘A Mars a day helps you work rest and play’.

    It didn’t take long for us to learn these for they were on the telly every day, repeatedly. Even now, they are still ‘stuck’ in our minds.

    Now, compare that to Westminster propaganda :
    ‘Scotland’s too poor to be independent’.
    Also ‘stuck’ in the minds of millions of Scots still.

    By focusing on being poor, Scots were suckered into forgetting about their Sovereignty, if they ever knew about it in the first place – with a little help from English history lessons at school. And the Labour Party of course. Never forget the role they played in suppressing Scotland’s right to a restored, post-colonial, Independence.

    Many people are unaware that they are ‘brainwashed’, either by Heinz, or Mars, or by Westminster. But Supermarket shelves are never without Mars bars or tins of beans. And elections and referendums are never without those same old brainwashing lies-come-beliefs.

    But, like bubbles of captured air, rising to the surface, the truth is also coming to the surface about the disgusting abuse meted out by the English to all its colonies over hundreds of years, and no less to Scotland. Based on lies and unbridled greed, the English Establishment built an Empire of power and wealth which sustains it to this day from its vaults in offshore tax havens. Including, among other lucrative revenue streams, the seemingly endless oil, gas, fresh water, and wind-powered electricity from Scotland. Preserve the UK? There is all the motivation Westminster needs right there.

  218. Daisy Walker says:

    So, today, at some point (unless the Queen throws a sickie) Benn’s Bill to force Boris to go to the EU and negotiate an extension will receive Royal Assent.

    And parliament is prorogued until 14/10/19.

    On re-opening on 14/10/19 there is the Queens Speech followed by 4 – 6 days of debates about the contents of the Queens speech… which burns the clock down nicely.

    17/10/19 there is the meeting with the EU.

    31/10/19 we are out, with no deal, that anyone can realistically see, except perhaps Terrible May’s really, really shit one.

    On the plus side, a Prorogued parliament can and would be recalled if they try and utilise the Civil Contingencies act.

    A parliament shut down for the purposes of an election could not be.

    Think its definitely time to stockpile the emergency supplies.

  219. Roger says:

    galamcennalath says:
    9 September, 2019 at 1:04 pm

    “As I understand it, if NI is allowed to stay closer to the EU than any other part of the UK and given favoured trading arrangements, this is a direct breach of the Treaty of Union”.

    Really? A breach of which Article? Take your time now… Oh, and please note that the Church of Ireland being the established church and united with the Church of England was supposed to be ‘forever’ – according to the Act of Union. The C of I was disestablished in 1867…
    But please explain how a custms border in the Irish Sea breaches the Act of Union…and make sure you are referring to the 1801 Act of Union

  220. Clydebuilt says:

    Call Kaye this am.

    Discussing the trouble at marches in Glasgow. Kaye repeatedly says that “there are to be 14 more Republican marches this month” Martin Hannan points out that of these 14 marches only TWO are Republican.

    John Beattie Show @12.10

    Ex Lord Provost of Glasgow Janes Kelly asked about the ” Sectarian Marches” Ban all marches, no need for marches in today’s modern World. If people want to get a message out use social media.
    He’s content for people to congregate in public halls and parks. Where the public wont see the strength of support for a cause.

    Job done

  221. Sean Swan says:


    Apologies for my previous intemperate post – and my other post about a Confidence vote was mean ironically. Basically I’m saying the Opposition are a shower fkn gobshites, cowards and chancers – no better than the Gov

  222. galamcennalath says:


    Article six, from the Treaty of Union we seek to revoke ….

    ” That all Parts of the united Kingdom, for ever, from and after the Union, shall have the same Allowances, Encouragements, and Draw-backs, and be under the same Prohibitions, Restrictions, and Regulations of Trade, and liable to the same Customs and Duties, and Import and Export. And that the Allowances, Encouragements, and draw-backs, Prohibitions, Restrictions, and Regulations, of Trade, and the Customs and Duties on Import and Export settled in England, when the Union commences, shall, from and after the Union, take place throughout the whole united Kingdom. “

  223. Bob Mack says:


    The DUP will most certainly utilise a border in the Irish Sea to establish the proposition of two separate counties in N Ireland as opposed to the current six,

    These are staunch Unionist areas who will most certainly refuse to concede any movement that robs them ,or evenly remotely suggests depriving them of British identity.

    They will resist by force if necessary. It has very serious potential dangers for N Ireland.

    I expect a backlash very soon.

  224. Dorothy Devine says:

    OT The RSPCA are running heart rending adverts on T.V .

    Please remember to support the Scottish version NOT the one south of the border – nae harm to their needy animals but they do have many more folk that can contribute.

  225. Iain mhor says:

    So, by tonight Scotland will have the only functioning Government and Parliament in the UK – It will be operating independently.
    Oh well, while the cat’s away… nah, not going to happen is it. 🙂

  226. manandboy says:

    “EU is losing patience with Britain, warns Dutch minister
    Sigrid Kaag throws further doubt on Boris Johnson’s claim he is seeking new deal with Brussels”

    We already know that here in Scotland at least.

    ‘Losing patience’, a recurring theme in Brexit world.

    But when patience is finally lost or exhausted, it is usually accompanied by a determination to do something decisive. With Brexit, I guess that’s when it will all kick off. Or, as we used to say, ‘that’ll be when the trouble starts’.

  227. Roger says:

    “The DUP will most certainly utilise a border in the Irish Sea to establish the proposition of two separate counties in N Ireland as opposed to the current six”

    No, no they won’t – you’re talking about Antrim and Down – south Down has a nationalist majority (so have the Glens of Antrim) North Down is Lady Sylvia Hermon’s constituency.
    Even the OO and Peter Robinson have broadly accepted not only a customs border but – if a majority was for it, a united Ireland. Anyway, what you’re talking about is repartition – nobody sane would countenance or allow it – it would mean ethnic cleansing.

  228. Golfnut says:

    @ Roger.

    Galamcennalath referred to the Treaty of Union, the document which created the United Kingdom, the Articles of Union cannot legally be altered by any internal Act passed Westminster.

  229. Dan says:

    manandboy says: at 1:14 pm

    By focusing on being poor, Scots were suckered into forgetting about their Sovereignty, if they ever knew about it in the first place.

    Pretty much on the money manandboy. For most of my life I’ll have to admit to having virtually no comprehension of what Sovereignty actually means.
    If you’d asked me when I was 20, I’d have answered with – “Ahh, sovereignty, that’ll be the adjective used describe those lads that wear those big gold rings with the coins in them”… like “he’s a bit sovereignty that lad”.

    I’ve no recollection of ever hearing the word in my school lessons. Guess the powers that be didn’t want to awaken the Scots to their real status in the UK context.

  230. Roger says:

    I’m not sure that’s the 1801 Act of Union – but never mind. You see it would solve everybody’s problems. The backstop would be gone and Scotland would have a REAL ‘material change in circumstances’ – a breach of the Act of Union.
    But believe me, London will breach the Ac of Union if it suits them – they did in 1867.

  231. manandboy says:

    NI. We didn’t think the billion pound bribe by the Tories of the DUP-UDA was all for public services, now did we? The Loyalist paramilitaries will be well stocked up with arms ‘n ammo, and anything else they need in order to uphold the’No Surrender’ ethos.

    If Johnson shafts the DUP, the pressure inside the North East corner of Ireland will be very difficult to contain.

    Will Johnson care if NI kicks off, I doubt it. The preservation of the English Establishment, with its Ruling Class and its wealth & power, and a ‘divorce’ from the EU, are Johnson’s priorities, together with securing English control over Scotland’s great wealth of resources. Sorry NI.

  232. Roger says:

    “Galamcennalath referred to the Treaty of Union, the document which created the United Kingdom”

    He did no such thing – I think he was referring to the 1707 Anglo-Scottish Act, I was referring to the 1801 Act of Union which created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland – OK, the latter bis now a bit truncated, but that’s the Act of Union


    The OO says it would accept a UI if a majority voted for it

    Peter Robinson countenances a UI

  233. Dan says:

    @Iain mhor at 1:36 pm

    Westminster shutting for a month tonight. Seems an ideal time for the First Minister to ask for that Section 30 late this evening just before proroguing with a 28 day to RSVP condition. Nae response fae Westminster then she can presume they have nowt to say on the matter and she can progress accordingly.
    Still go back to this old bookmarked series of posts. Obviously events and times have altered from when this discussion took place so be interested to hear what folk now make of this line of thinking.

  234. Bob Mack says:


    I can assure you that the Unionist community will not take any betrayal lying down. There are issues at stake such as land taken over at the time of partition. There are issues of culture. This for them is not about numbers or who has higher birth rates.

    This to them is about their life.

    The six counties are full of guys who want to prove themselves in baptism of fire. The UDA and others have not gone away. They are mainly concerned in drug running,but are still there and armed to the teeth via drug money.

    This is foggy just now, but we will see what happens if Boris, like Harvey Proctor a century ago betrays the Unionists in N Ireland.
    There will be conflict.

  235. manandboy says:

    Empires come and go. It is the bit in the middle, before they’re gone, that most of the upheaval tends to occur, as we can all see, as the ‘mini-empire’, known as the UK, breaks up before our eyes, even though many will not understand what is actually happening in those terms, as they go about their usual Saturday business. Indeed, for some, it will not happen at all, unless they see it on the BBC News.

  236. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@11.32am

    Sorry to hear that you are happy to just repeat anything you read on twitter without any analysis or search for evidence. Is that not one of the values that the site owner would recommend.

  237. Golfnut says:

    @ Roger.

    Galamcennalath referred to the Treaty of Union. The Acts of Union, because there are 2, one passed by the English Parliament, the other by the Scottish Parliament. The 1801 Act you refer to is irrelevant in context to the Treaty of Union between Scotland and England.

  238. Roger says:

    Firstly – despite all the hype on many sides – neither a ‘hard border’ nor a customs order in the Irish Sea contravenes the letter of the GFA (which is why those who suggest that it does never quote the thing), secondly, the only options that the GFA recognises for NI is that it – in its entirety -remains part of the UK or – if it votes for it in a referendum – becomes part of a UI. There’s no option for an opt out whether for Keady or Ballymena – because no sane person would suggest reparition.
    I’m not too sure amybody would really want to put up a fight to establish the Orange Free State of North Down and Most of Antrim – anyway, North down is a frightfully nice place – all golf courses and nice middle-class people who vote for Lady Sylvia.
    And, by the way, Belfast is actually in Antrim – and Belfast city proper has a nationalist majority. Join the dots – cos that’s what you’d have to do to get this Orange Free State.
    Ordinary people on either side don’t want to go back to the 1970s – and without the support (or at least tolerance) of ordinary people, you just can’t play those games.

  239. Roger says:


    The Act of Union? Irrelevant? And yes, I mean the 1801 Act – that would probably depend on where you’re standing – but it is what constitutes the UK as currently constituted (with a bit of an adjustment in 1921…but there was no new Act)

  240. Doug says:

    Westminster going on holiday. Good opportunity for English nationalism to simmer and boil.

  241. Lenny Hartley says:

    “Our” James Kelly is getting to be as much as pain in the arse as the one that wont sit down.
    He says this about the WOS party today, basically calling the Rev a Fascist. Well he (kelly) is now on my arsehole list and as such I wont be reading or contributing finances to him again.
    Quote Many potential Wings supporters are rightly concerned about the SNP’s cautious managerialism and stifling of debate at conference. But for my money they’ll rue the day they swap all of that for the Il Duce principle. unquote

  242. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Roger @ 13:17,

    gala is perfectly correct. The 1800 British and Irish Acts (to abolish the inherently-sectarian Irish Parliament by another disgraceful purchase of votes on the Irish side) only reinforce the 1707 Treaty with respect to internal trade (again Art.6, as it happens in this case, Art.4 in the 1707 Treaty, IIRC), albeit with some minor temporary restrictions that are long gone.

    Putting an EU border in the Irish Sea, while arguably an eminently practicable solution to current Brexit difficulties, is a direct breach of the 1707 Treaty – a constitutional matter. Whereas Art.50 of the Lisbon Treaty requires that exit be conformant to the constitution of the departing country. Thus Brexit on those terms is directly challeangable.

    This is never amplified by BritNats, but is revealed by their generalised mutterings about “endangering the Union”. But they know full well the implications.

  243. Roger says:


    Still predicting murder and mayhem if here’s a customs border in the Irish Sea? Well, time will tell, as they say. I have strong doubts, but you seem to lust after such an outcome…I wonder why

  244. manandboy says:

    Roger, I’ll take your word for all of that. I hadn’t quite appreciated how peaceful and law-abiding the Loyalist paramilitaries were. I don’t normally think of them as strolling round the beautiful golf courses of the Six Counties.

  245. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 13:04,

    The irony of recent developments is that the UK junta is so far up shit creek now that the tiny DUP paddle can no longer save them. Thus maybe expendable, if an alternative solution can get through the HoC with the help of wishy-washy Labour MPs like Kinnock.

  246. Bob Mack says:

    If it’s of any interest

    My family comes from Cookstown. We once held land there until the partition when it was removed from them. I know N IRELAND well, and I know the people.

    To think because a politician states there will be peace in naive in extremis. Politicians don’t control terrorists. It’s the other way about. I know for a fact that there have been suggestions of annexing two provinces to maintain British ness as a last resort.

    I lust for peace, not war,as do the majority in N Ireland. However that gift is only in the hands of men of violence.

    Imagine what happens if things get out of control,and if Ireland not the UK has to put resources in to quell the situation? Best recruiting sergeant the Unionist terrorist ever will have

    You put your own thoughts onto mine and make assumptions.

    This will play out as it may.

  247. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Lenny Hartley @ 14:21,

    It’s not just WoS supporters who are “rightly concerned”.

    Whereas JK is right in his fundamental point (which you omitted in that quote), that you can’t have a democratic political party run on the likes of James Goldsmith’s late-unlamented EU-hating Referendum Party.

    Besides, Stu is no James Goldsmith, and it’s (already fairly clear) likely won’t get the same considerable degree of funding for such a political proposal as for this excellent non-aligned analysis website.

    I suggest that two main benefits of Stu’s kite-flying exercise have already been achieved: to put the BritNats on notice that they can’t rely on hanging-on till 2021 in the hope of removing the pro-indy majority in Holyrood, and to put some more fire in the bellies of the SNP in the meantime.

    We all need to calm down over this. It’s highly premature, and we can return to coolly evaluating the possibilities after a better appreciation of more immediately pressing matters.

    Burning bridges and rashly making enemies of people who are basically on the same side isn’t going to help anyone. Obvious really.

  248. Cubby says:


    “…the 1707 Anglo Scottish act.”

    There is no such thing. Happy for you to attempt to prove me wrong.

  249. Willie Fleming says:

    What Robert J. Sutherland says above.
    Keep calm and chill, keep your eyes on the Big Picture. Rev Stu can and has done an awful lot of good simply by mentioning the possibility of a WoS banner under which alternate list candidates could stand in carefully selected areas.

    Go out and stock your cupboards, though.

  250. Welsh Sion says:

    Plaid Cymru reported to be planning to ‘impeach’ Johnson in the same manner they led to the campaign to impeach Blair for the Iraq war. Scotland on side for that?

    And here are some pix from the AUOB/YES Cymru March on Saturday.

  251. Roger says:


    And I used to live on an interface in Belfast (nd on the wrong side of it)- used to buy cheap fags from the UDA, in fact. NI today is not the old ‘our wee Ulster’ – it’s gone. E Belfast votes Alliance ffs.
    Nobody – apart from a few dissidents on both sides – wants the Troubles back – and nobody is going to go to war over the inspection of a few moo cows on the ferry. Sorry.
    By the way, have a look at this:

  252. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Golfnut @ 11:23,

    Excellent posting.

    Bob Mack @ 11:31,

    I don’t myself remember, Bob, but you may be quite correct in recalling that in the heady days of the Spring of 2017 after the historic vote in Holyrood for a S.30 request, Nicola signed the order. But even if so, it was never sent. It (and much else besides) was overtaken by May’s misbegotten snap election of that year, which possibly in part was triggered by the anticipation of receiving such a request. With all the distractions alas that followed.

    The current SG has never formally submitted a S.30 request. It would require a formal reply.

  253. Bob Mack says:


    That link is rather troubling. If Johnson has got this right he can sit tight and do nothing whilst we Brexit on his terms.

    I wonder if this is why Cummings is so smug ? The law is about anything but justice after all. It concerns itself only with facts.

  254. Lenny Hartley says:

    Welsh Sion, great pics, just spoke to some of your countrymen and woman who are here on Arran with Celtic Tours. The Coach was just parking up and folk getting off and I engaged some in conversation. I said I loved the green bus with the red dragon on its side and they said thanks us Celts must stick together so I mentioned the March on Saturday , they had not heard of it probably as they were touring Scotland however the were gobsmacked when I told them 5,000 were marching in Wales for Indy. Think there may be a latent groundswell in Wales waiting to burst out.

  255. manandboy says:

    Tweets from Prof. Colin Talbot


    “Dethroning Democracy.

    Probably the best way of describing the process of undermining representative democracy and replacing it with an authoritarian regime, with some vestigial democratic trappings?

    It has happened in Russia, Turkey and Hungary. It has started in the US and UK?

    It can be stopped, and even reversed because it is a gradual process, not a coup d’?tat. Resistance is not futile.

    But its also more dangerous because its incremental – each individual move can seem “not too serious”, until accumulated changes become a qualitative tipping point?

    In the UKs case steps have already been taken towards Dethroning Democracy.
    ?Treating an advisory referendum as a ‘mandate’ that overrules representative Parliament
    ?Suspending Parliament to undermine its ability to act & scrutinise
    ?Hinting that Parliament might be ignored

    I have spent 30 years as an academic debunking claims of “paradigm shifts” and “revolutions” in organizations, management and government. Continuity is a strong force.

    But what we are seeing in the UK now really could be the start of a massive change, unless stopped.”

  256. manandboy says:

    Boris Johnson says during a visit to Dublin that a no-deal Brexit “would be a failure of statecraft for which we would all be responsible”, while Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar says “there is no such thing as a clean break” between the UK and EU.

    Well worth watching this video from Ch4

  257. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert J Sutherland.

    Robert, the letter requesting a section 30 was sent to !and received by Mrs May. She stated”now is not the time ” in response.
    Mundesley backed that up by acknowledging the section 30 had been received but intimated the government were not going to give it time.

    Nicola did formally apply

    The vote in Holyrood on a Green amendment won by 69- 59.

    Does a section 30 application have a shelf life?

  258. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    RobertTheTruth @ 12:19,

    You obviously haven’t been around here very long, so you don’t have a sensible appreciation of the many varied policy meanderings of our “Colin Alexander”. He may or may not be a “Socialist” as per your naive assessment, but the only constant that can be determined with any certainty from his voluminous outpourings – which always increase in times of dispute – is a concerted attempt at discrediting the SNP.

    Well, voter disengagement is a well-established technique, and it isn’t coming from anyone on our side, whatever their politics.

    (Oh and jeez, what an absurdly arrogant appellation. You have a direct line to God or something…?)

  259. Colin Alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    Thank you for engaging in debate.

    So, one reason for not seeking indy via a GE is GE’s are for multiple topics?

    The SNP could make it about one topic: A vote for the SNP is a vote for the SNP to represent the sovereignty of Scotland, by removing sovereignty over Scotland from Westminster, so the SNP can negotiate independence followed by Scotland then holding a confirmatory vote on indy.

    That way Nicola still gets her gold standard indyref – a “gold-sovereign” Scottish indyref, not a UK Govt s30 subservient devolution Scottish Parliament one.

    The risk is: People might not vote SNP at a GE. So what? The SNP MPs at Westminster are a complete waste of time and money anyway. There is also the risk that if the SNP don’t seek an indy mandate at the GE people won’t vote SNP. That’s what happened in 2017. Half a million SNP voters didn’t vote.

    There is also the very real risk if the SNP don’t seek an indy mandate via a GE the UK State will prevent the devolution Scottish Parliament from holding an indyref. That means the SNP never deliver their mandate for indyref2 when they could have.

    If that happens, the SNP will be a busted flush. Many will give up on the SNP and indy or a Wings Party and others? will chase the indy vote.

    That would be a tragedy caused by the SNP being afraid to come out fighting for indy and being unwilling to risk some pointless / useless SNP MP jobs.

  260. Bob Mack says:

    @Colin Alexander,

    Rather disagree Colin. Prior to 2007 Scottish MPS were a complete waste of time and money. Having MPs in parliament who talk about Scottish sovereignty is rather novel and better than what went before. They don’t necessarily toe the English line on every occasion.

    Swings and roundabouts.

  261. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert the Truth

    Thank you. An excellent comment.

    I and others have every right to be able to criticise our Scottish Government and suggest what we believe are better choices. That’s democracy and free speech.

    As for me discrediting the SNP. I criticised Shona Robison’s performance on several occasions: she resigned admitting she wasn’t able to do the job due to tragic issues in her personal life.

    I praised her for eventually doing the right thing. But, I was right, she admitted as much.

  262. Colin Alexander

    GE’s will not allow any EU cItIzen’s or 16 yr olds to vote for YES… that’s quite a few certain YES votes lost.

  263. call me dave says:

    Speaker Bercow boiler to stand down on 31st October.
    Applause as he makes his announcement.

  264. katherine hamilton says:

    My goodness, Mr Alexander, you don’t half talk s***e. Ms. Robinson done well. Enough already. If you think you’re good enough, stand.

  265. ScotsRenewables says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    9 September, 2019 at 2:49 pm

    We all need to calm down over this. It’s highly premature, and we can return to coolly evaluating the possibilities after a better appreciation of more immediately pressing matters.

    Burning bridges and rashly making enemies of people who are basically on the same side isn’t going to help anyone. Obvious really.

    Spot on. We all need to calm down, including Stu and JK

  266. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Bob Mack @ 15:20,

    I know about the vote in Holyrood, because I was there in the public gallery to witness it! And you are evidently perfectly correct that Nicola signed the letter, since here is as example one article that supports your recollection:

    But on a cursory internet search I can’t find anything to substantiate your impression that the request was actually sent. The few press reports seem to assume that having been signed, it was going to be sent, but that’s all. A P&J article headlines that it has been “received”, but the body of the article merely states “it is expected to be sent on Friday”, which is not too convincing either way. So on balance you could be right, and I would be happy to be proven wrong. Here’s a lazy challenge for somebody! =grin=

    A formal written request would surely require a written response, though, no? To repurpose an old phrase, “no such response has been received”. I’ve always taken May’s notorious hand-waving verbal assertion that “now is not the time” was merely an attempted deflection at their sometime face-to-face meeting.

  267. manandboy says:

    Just for information :

    Since June 22nd 2016, the pound has fallen in value to 73p.

    Since the EU referendum, the isolation of the UK continues unabated, as the pound haemorrhages value, increasing the overall weakness of the UK as a State.

    The world meanwhile looks on in disbelief at the deterioration and disarray of the UK’s political infrastructure. However, within the protective firewall of the UK Media, the electorate is not allowed to see the view from outside. So we think things are not too bad and will surely improve. But the watching world knows better. They can see the true state we are in, and the very real possibility that the UK may very well not recover. PM Johnson’s performance in Dublin today, did nothing to reverse that view.

  268. Ottomanboi says:

    What the ‘establishment’ could repeat should the going get too sticky.
    Not gone away those guys keen to keep British ‘democracy’ on the right path.
    Scotland? we’ve got a plan for that….all very hush hush.

  269. manandboy says:

    As for the age of criticism, in which I have participated, it too will soon be over, as the damage wrought by the Brexit ‘avalanche’ becomes clearer, even as it increases. Then will be the time for silence in Scotland, as the reality of what is taking place IN ENGLAND becomes clearly visible, despite heavy denials by the Unionist media, the BBC, under Donalda MacKinnon, in particular.

    After that, it truly will be decision time.

  270. manandboy says:

    After the resignation speech by John Bercow today the Opposition benches rose to their feet in warm and supportive applause.

    For their part, the Government benches remained seated, without applause, until slowly, a few rose and politely applauded the outgoing Speaker.

    The Government benches were sparsely populated while the benches opposite were full.

    In a single image, it was clear to see that one side favoured Party before Country, and Authoritarianism over Democracy.

  271. Ealasaid says:

    In-D-Car Gordon Ross 9.9.19 – 5 weeks holiday at the most critical time in recent political history

  272. katherine hamilton says:

    I’ve been away for a few days. Lurker, really not saying much.
    However, let’s give Nicola Sturgeon a kicking. Lat’ll work.
    Christ, Annie Wells will agree.

    One vision, one future.

    I used to be Labour. We had one true message. Solidarity.

    We need it now

    Hold, friends, Hold. Wings is still the best hope we have after the SNP. We need both.

  273. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert J Sutherland,

    I have done some research on parliament UK site and indeed on the SNP site. It is clear Nicola did indeed make the section 30 request. It was sent. It was received.

    It also appears that the government did not formally reply. Mrs May gave the Times the quote” now is not the time” in response, as did Mundell

    Staggering if true, that they did not formally respond. I’m sure the SNP would have utilised such a refusal in writing to full advantage, especially coming from a request from a devolved parliament.

  274. Colin Alexander says:

    Meg merrilees

    You are correct that EU nationals and 16-17 year olds can’t vote at GE’s.

    But that’s the situation in 2015 and 2017 and the SNP won a majority of seats then.

    The exclusion of EU nationals and teenagers would be addressed if there was a confirmatory Scottish referendum, run by Scotland in exercise of the sovereign electoral mandate.

    At the later Scottish confirmatory referendum 16 and 17 year olds and EU nationals could vote, if Scotland decides that, which seems likely.

    So, the GE would not be the ultimate decider on indy: it would be the green light for Scotland to act as a sovereign nation to hold its own indyref.

    The criticism here would be: it’s the SNP seeking another indyref mandate. That’s true, but this time it would be a mandate for an indyref in exercise of Scottish sovereign power, not by UK devolution so not subject to UK Parliament or English law.

  275. Bobp says:

    Manandboy 1.14pm. Excellent post, spot on

  276. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@4.43pm

    What you have posted has always been my understanding of the situation. The ignorance and the arrogance of the UK knows no bounds. Sturgeon will therefore be able to say the request has been outstanding for years. Time to make up your mind UK a formal decline or not.

  277. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander complimenting Mr Truth.

    A Britnat telling his fellow Britnat to keep up the good work. Namely – try and convince the gullible that it is all about free speech/ different opinions etc etc

    Robert the truth posting more mince. No one is stopping you posting your mince Mr Truth. You just posted some today – so by definition you are talking mince. You just don’t like being called out.

    So who is stopping you posting your mince Mr Truth and Mr Alexander. NOBODY.

  278. Simon Curran says:

    There’s been a number of comments about young voters, persuading soft Noes etc but doesn’t there also need to be a focus on engaging the thousands of voters who for on reason or another don’t vote?

  279. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Bob Mack @ 16:43,

    Thanks, Bob, for duly clarifying that.

  280. Bob Mack says:

    @Simon Curran,

    I completely agree. Every vote will be essential in an election that may very well determine the ultimate fate of our country for generations to come.

    We must try to work out why a great many have apathy to that message. We must inspire and ignite the belief that they currently lack.

    This will be a pivotal moment and a pivotal election in Scotland history.

  281. call me dave says:

    Many MP’s trying to warn, head off Dominic Grieve from naming names re: Boris’s motives for proroguing the parliament.

    POO. Rt Hon Redwood having another go at stopping him.

    Spill the beans FGS!

  282. Cubby says:


    Best of luck with telling the Britnats that their 312 year Union is only 218 years old. Or is it really under 100 years old?

    The key point is that it won’t be around for much longer.

  283. Col.Blimp IV says:

    So No No Deal Brexit is now officially THE LAW !

    But is it really? will be the question Boris’ gang will be asking.

    What is the penalty for transgressing this “Law”?

    £25 fine? Unlimited fine + six months in the nick? Ten years in the nick?

    Is it criminal Law? Is it Civil Law? Is it Parliamentary Law?

    Is there such a thing as Parliamentary Law?

    Who is it that enforces this “Law”?

    Is it The Speaker?

    What is the maximum penalty that The Speaker can impose?

    What does the UK constitution say about this Law?

    Are their any precedents?

    Can we set the precedent by ignoring it?

    Is the UK Parliament a competent body to pass a Law that compels the EU to give The UK a “Deal”?

    What is the procedure for getting all this clarified?

    Can we challenge the competency of this Law?

    If we kick off this procedure will the “Law” be in force while everything is being sorted out?

    Do we have one Friend or Enemy in Europe who will Veto any further extensions to article 50, rendering this “Law” irrelevant?

    Perhaps there is more to Brecow’s resignation than you think!

  284. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@5.27pm

    ” We must inspire and ignite the belief that they currently lack”

    Nothing to do with people calling Surgeon a liar and relentless SNP/Scotgov baaad on sites like Wings. No, of course not, that is just people expressing their freedom of speech. No impact at all. The Britnats on Wings must be wasting their time.

  285. Bill Hume. says:

    I know there are a lot of frustrated people posting here….I’m probably one of them, but let’s all pause for a second.
    There will in all probability be a UK election in the not too distant future.
    Do any of you believe there is a viable alternative to voting SNP in this UK election?

    One battle at a time…..let’s get the SNP vote out for this one, then get ready for the next obstacle the British Establishment put in our way

  286. stuart mctavish says:

    Re Bob Mack @3.20
    So in theory things could still get interesting if Boris steps up at 1 minute to midnight and says something along the lines of “Now is the time (FFS), my timorous beastly brethren”, and names the date for indy2 as 17 October..

  287. call me dave says:

    Getting serious now D. Grieve alludes to a revolution

    Right Hon Geofferey Cox QC for the Government now trying to put the frighteners on Grieve.

    All fingers pointing to Cummings and / or Boris IMO in No 10

    Wait! Not in the rules Cox QC intervenes. Re: government employees to ‘leak things’.

    Names on a list circulating in the house…not for us to know, Yet! Read the Daily Mail in the morning.

  288. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Ealasaid @ 16:41,

    Yeah, whatever happened to Private (ex Little Corporal) Ruthie’s jibe about “doing the day job”?

    Seems Tory MPs aren’t even doing the month job. But I guess they will happily collect their salaries regardless.

  289. Bob Mack says:


    Independence is what it is. There are many who vote for it,Nicola or no. She is the vehicle at present,but not necessarily the owner of said vehicle.

    If you insist on only Nicola And SNP lovers voting for indy, I tell you now you will lose. People vote for an end product and not personalities

  290. RobertTheTruth says:


    Yet again you are misrepresenting what is said here. You have an unfortunate habit of reading all sorts of things that are not there into other people’s comments.

    No one has said people are being stopped from speaking, the objection is the constant insinuations that someone is a Britnat because they do not conform to a number of posters’ narrow idea of what an Independence supporter should think and say.

    People should be allowed to express differing opinions without their integrity being questioned. If someone says they are an Independence supporter, who are you to suggest otherwise?

    You claim to be a polite person who does not indulge in personal abuse. To call me a Britnat is the height of abuse and I strongly object to it.

    You have absolutely no justification for doing that.

  291. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Bill Hume @ 17:51,

    My view also, Bill (but I guess that’s no secret).

    The UKGE likely won’t settle anything much, but the biggest possible SNP vote on an explicit “headline” demand for IR2 – as is virtually certain – will be impossible for anyone to dismiss or otherwise spin away.

    And moreover, any attempt to deny it therefter will surely drive ever more people into the indy camp as the “leaders not leavers” fantasy self-destructs.

  292. David says:

    Still got to ask what happens if the FM asks for section 30 and PM whoever that is says no.
    Scotland being ignored wont do or is the plan not to ask.

  293. Daisy Walker says:

    France making noises that any extension of A50 would need to be for 2 years, so that the EU can get on with its own business.

    Hmm. Hope that one doesn’t fly to be honest, although I can see why it would appeal to the EU member states.

    England imports 7% of its ‘leccie from Mainland EU. Expect your electricity bill to go up after 31/10/19 – some estimate by 30%.

  294. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It is fairly straightforward, although laborious, matter to find out exactly what would have happened for various imagined transfers of SNP list votes to third parties on the list.”

    Watch this space…

  295. Bill Hume. says:

    I’m watchin this space with much interest……but we have a UK GE to win first.

  296. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Bill Hume. says:

    “There will in all probability be a UK election in the not too distant future.”

    So everyone has been saying.

    But the reality is – There will be an election when BOTH the Labour and Conservative Parties want one OR in four years time when the fixed term Parliament runs its course.

    A wise Indian once said White “Man speaks with forked tongue”.

    We have no idea whether The Tories with or without Boris will elect to soldier on with a Minority Government or for how long if they do.

    Or what the Parliamentary Labour Party and the Lib/Dems (who both hate Corbyn) will do if the Government resigns.

    And who can say with any certainty that the Conservatives will lend their votes to a coalition motion to dissolve Parliament – what’s sauce for the Goose and all that.

    All that we do know for sure is, they will all act in what they perceive to be their own best interests.

    We can only play the hand that we have been dealt … Once it has been dealt.

    Which, frustrated as I am at the SNP’s recent Brexit form … Is why I am not screaming for Sturgeon and Blackfords heads to be hoisted on poles from the ramparts of Stirling Castle.

    They may actually be acting in good faith in the best interests of the independence movement, rather than as the willing servants or unwitting tools of the dark forces of Global Capitalism.

  297. North chiel says:

    Chief “ Misreporting Scotland” state media propagandist “ the Rhinestone cowboy” initiating “ the vow 2 “ Federal U.K. “ horseshit” again . Time that Glen “ road of into the sunset” .

  298. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Daisy Walker says:

    “England imports 7% of its ‘leccie from Mainland EU. Expect your electricity bill to go up after 31/10/19 – some estimate by 30%.”

    The EU does not slap export tariffs on goods and services by default … and it would have to be a real humdinger of a punitive duty to take an increase of that magnitude into the real world.

  299. Capella says:

    I thought “These Islands” sounded familiar. But it is different to the unionist outfit. Website set up by Sean Swan who posted upthread. A new voice?

  300. Cubby says:

    Robert The Truth@6.06pm

    Is that the truth and nothing but the Truth?

    Never read any of your posts saying you are an independence supporter. Never read any of your posts giving even the smallest hint that you support independence. Plenty of posts promoting the right to slag off all aspects of SNP/Scotgov and getting stuck in yourself.

    Sorry. I do not claim claim to be a polite person who does not indulge in personal abuse. Your Truth is wrong. You accuse me of misrepresenting- ha ha. I’ll spell it out for you mr Truth I don’t like phoney independence supporters and have no respect for them. Others if they are civil to me then am I am civil to them. Got it. That’s my truth.

    It’s freedom of speech. If you don’t like my truth then scroll on by.

  301. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@6.05pm

    “If you insist on only Nicola and SNP lovers voting for Indy, I tell you now you will lose”

    Bob, where exactly did I say that ? That was not my point. No value in replying to a point I did not make.

    Mr Truth has just accused me of misrepresenting posters comments. Want to read my post at 5.47pm again?

  302. RM says:

    I wonder if any of the other member countries have any sympathy with Scotland? Are they not saying or not allowed to say or have England vetoed the press, Scottish people have been members of the EU same as Ireland, Wales and England, we should have the right to stay in as we voted for it can’t the European Courts fight for it, we are a Nation.

  303. schrodingers cat says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    9 September, 2019 at 6:30 pm
    “It is fairly straightforward, although laborious, matter to find out exactly what would have happened for various imagined transfers of SNP list votes to third parties on the list.”

    Watch this space…


    i already did this for the 2016 he results a while back

    assuming everyone who voted snp on the list voted for the wos party, (unlikely, i know)you would win 3 seats in each region.

    gaining 4 seats in any one region is unlikely

    then again, you wouldnt need every snp voter to switch to wos on the list to win 3 in any one region, about 75% of snp voters would still win the 3 seats

  304. Republicofscotland says:

    So Gordon Brown is in Glasgow today, the Gorbals to be precise giving one of his ceremonies on what he thinks is the way forward.

    Brown who has no politicial clout, but is a die-hard unionist is fawned over by the BBC, that Scots might actually listen to him.

  305. Patrick Roden says:


    I think most other EU countries have sympathy for Scotland right now, but they have always been loathe to express an opinion, because this would be seen as ‘interfering’ in another members democracy.

    I get the feeling that once the UK is no longer a member of the EU, we will see quite a few politicians expressing support for Scotland having a right to decide to either belong to the EU or belong to the UK.

  306. RobertTheTruth says:


    I am telling you that I am Independence supporter.

    I am sorry that the word ‘truth’ upsets you so much. The truth is not always black and white. The SNP do not represent every Independence supporter – even you must realise that.

    You have no evidence to suggest that I am a ‘phoney’ Independence supporter.

    Politeness and civility are similar traits but I see neither from you when you decide to hound someone on this site for no reason other than you disagree with their views. I suppose it is my turn now.

    You decide an Independence supporter is ‘phoney’ because you do not like their views on the SNP. You pick on someone who expresses an opinion usually on the SNP. Initially you start with snide remarks often mocking their name, their often reasonable opinions and then you come straight out and call them a ‘Britnat’.

    From then on you misrepresent everything they say as ‘evidence’ to fit your prejudice. You then turn up at every opportunity with snide remarks deriding them personally or their opinions. Everyone can see that is how you operate.

    There is no freedom here to express opinions once you decide to bully someone. The best thing for you is to ignore my posts if they upset you so much but you appear to like to create conflict. I ignore yours on the whole but when you appear like a bad smell denigrating a poster every time they post it gets a bit much.

    I doubt there is anyone here who actually wants your respect.

  307. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 19:47,

    And even to get 75$ of which would require the tacit goodwill of the SNP. That’s how these things work. So getting up their noses and making them afraid it’s going to hurt their chances just ain’t going to hack it. It requires friendly co-operation to have any hope of succeeding.

    Besides which, that’s for then and this is now. If we’re still footling around ’bout indy two years from now, I’ll really despair.

  308. Colin Alexander says:

    I was just having a wee browse through the archived blogs. Came across this yin and thought its worth re-posting:

    “Posted on June 27, 2017 by Rev. Stuart Campbell

    Changes to SNP Indyref Policy:

    1. No changes.

    2. This article is over.”

    Excellent writing Stu and still so accurate. Sadly.

  309. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    me @ 20:16,

    Wee finger slip, that should be % not $.

  310. Gary says:

    As hard figures go (and twisting the to see what’ll happen) then I can’t disagree!

    BUT (of course there’s a ‘but’) you have to figure in the personalities too. Whilst SNP would be willing to participate in an SNP/Lab/LibDem loose ‘coalition’ we have already heard Swinson say that she won’t back Labour whilst Corbyn leads it. In fact she ended the chance to kick the Tories out purely based on this demand. And, as we know, Labour would refuse to deal with SNP partially due to the SLAB intransigence and partially due to memories of the election billboard of Salmond with Milliband in his top pocket, this campaign caused Labour to lose their romp to victory and give Cameron an unexpected Tory majority government after the LibDem/Tory Coalition. Yes, the English were scared by the thought, after 300 years of Union, that Scots would tell them what to do! That came hot on the heels of the ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech being reprinted in ‘The Daily Mail’ with ‘black man’ being replaced with ‘Scots man’ Racism is alive and well, thriving in our southern neighbour, sadly.

    So, after this GE it’ll be ANOTHER mess, not better, just different…

  311. AuldAlliance says:

    An extremely pessemistic piece.

    Ask yourself a) How did the the first vote for a Scottish Assembly arise in the 1970s? b) How did the successful campaign for a Scottish Parliament emerge in the 1990s?

  312. Colin Alexander says:

    The Guardian’s Live Reporting on debate in the Commons tonight:

    “The SNP’s leader in Westminster, Angus Robertson…”

  313. Lenny Hartley says:

    robert J Sutherland , ill decide who i read and who i do not read, do you think your my headmaster?

  314. Arthur C says:

    @ RobertTheTruth at 8:15 pm

    Stop feeding the feed the troll. Watch the fitba if you want pain.

  315. Jams O'Donnell says:

    Re your little spat an hour or so ago with James Kelly – you’re losing it man. Both of you came across as childish 4 year old school kids. This is the sort of thing MI5 will drool over. Get real and stop this shite – even if JK is too immature to do so (as he seems to be, having deleted similar posts from me), show an example – get a grip, please.

  316. Bob Mack says:

    John McTernan predicts no majority in HOC. That’s it then tories will win by a landslide.

  317. Lenny Hartley says:

    Well I suppose there will be a no deal Brexit bonus, Post Brexit, Scotland will be in a savage depression, our kids parents wont t be able to afford the leccy for their kids x boxes and Ps4’s , the games consoles will be pawned, the kids will have to go out on the streets and play football, once again we will have the likes of Jimmy Johnstone, Dennis Law and Willie Henderson gracing our National game.
    Every cloud has a silver lining.

  318. Cubby says:

    RobertThe Truth@8.15pm

    That is your truth Mr Truth. Funny how I remember your first post was to me attacking me – out of the blue.

    I am happy not to have your respect. You don’t sound in that post like a bullied person so give it a rest with the victim crap.

    Mr Truth speaking for everyone now.

    So go on Mr independence supporter please explain how slagging of the SNP/ Scotgov on this forum assists Scottish independence. Can’t say I’ve ever read any of your posts slagging of any Britnats.

  319. RobertTheTruth says:


    What are you on about?

    Whatever goes on in that head of yours is best kept there. Nobody has to prove anything to you. Away back to the playground and sort out your issues.

    @Arthur C Nobody needs that much pain!

  320. Cubby says:

    Arthur C.@9.04pm

    Arthur I am devastated by that comment. I guess you support the transformation of Wings into an anti SNP/Scotgov site.

  321. call me dave says:

    Radio shortbread trashing the Scottish team there but Belgium are
    a great team.

    I remember as a boy Uruguay 6 V Scot o
    England 9 V Scot 3
    and many more. 🙂

    Lighten up it’s fitba!

  322. Hamish100 says:

    So Colin Alexander and the Rev are singing from the same hymn sheet.

    Sorry guys SNP is getting my vote.

    There ain’t any other party just lots of hot air.

  323. Bob Mack says:

    @Call me dave,
    England 9 Scotland 3,

    I was at that game. I think Kennedy of Rangers was the goalkeeper. Literally broke his career.

  324. Arthur C says:

    @ Bob Mack @ 9.48 pm

    Strange how your powers of recall vary when it suits.

    Frank Haffey of Celtic if I recall correctly.

  325. Bob Mack says:

    Arthur c,

    You are quite correct. Kennedy only let in 5. Slightly better. As for recall,it was you must admit a long time ago.

  326. Arthur C says:

    @Bob Mack

    “You are quite correct. Kennedy only let in 5. Slightly better. As for recall,it was you must admit a long time ago.”

    Sorry, not acceptable!

    The name of Haffey is burned in the soul of all Scotland fans born 1935- 1965. God rest him he was just the fall guy.

    Maybe your NI background is causing you’re “Burnt” Orange slip to show.

    Bye for now.

  327. Miked says:

    Scotland, eh, wha’s like us? NOBODY, because nobody is f*****g stupid enough. No other country in the world would let a neighbouring country run their affairs. Ffs if you have any self of worth or respect left, for gods sake get off your f****ng knees. Short of plague,famine, or nuclear war, what in the f**k will it take to shift you’se out of your apathy.

  328. Arthur C says:

    Cubby 9:32 pm
    Do as thou wilt!

    I have been an SNP member since 1972 and I will call them as I see fit!

    Away, nasty evil Troll, away.

  329. Bob Mack says:

    @Arthur C,

    You appear to be a somewhat ” disturbed” individual.

    To make you happy .I am a member of the Orange Lodge Black Chapter, controlled by MI5 and currently working with the 77th brigade to disrupt the threads.

    This involves naming Scottish goalkeepers who lost 9 goals and deliberately putting responsibility onto a Rangers goalkeeper rather than celtic one.

    “M” advised me on that. I must get back to my book on glories of Empire,whilst you can retire to bed safe in the knowledge you have outed an agent of the State,

    Sweet dreams mon ami. That’s code by the way.

  330. Colin Alexander says:

    “Until 2000, the party would have regarded winning a majority of seats in
    a parliamentary election as a sufficient mandate to seek immediately to negotiate terms for independence, without the need for a prior referendum. The policy was changed precisely to break the link that a vote for the SNP necessarily meant a vote for independence…”

    No my words, the words of Aileen McHarg.

  331. Miked says:

    Scotland! A northern region of england with a pretence of being a ‘nation’ being slowly eaten away from within by the cancer that is unionist british nationalism.

  332. @ Alt Clut 1.55 and @Rob Outram 1.58 & Hoss Macintosh 2.53 – well said

  333. Bobp says:

    Well i wont be wearing my scotland top in bournemouth tomorrow. Can only take so much of the piss being ripped out me. Mind i do a good irish accent, so will avoid any embarrassment.

  334. Miked says:

    Robertthetruth 9.29pm. ‘What goes on in cubbys head’. I think the intensive training by cubbys handlers/ and the outing of him on wings, has f***ed cubby’s head up.

  335. call me dave says:

    There was a joke at the time:

    Q. What’s the time?
    A. Nine past Haffey!

    Radio Auntie retired to have a wee pundit chat when Blackford began to speak.

    Big talk about an agricultural/farming ALL Ireland slimmed down backstop for the 30% of trade. The other 70% Phfft! Who knows.

  336. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Better joke was “Seven past Niven”

  337. Bob Mack says:

    Quite remarkable listening to the House of Commons. I remember when a leader in such a position as Johnson would fall on his sword as a point of honour.
    Now they seem to want someone else to push the blade in for them.

    The whole thing is surreal. Sack me now! No we won’t. Go ahead finish me off! No we want you alive.

  338. Cubby says:

    Arthur C@10.48pm

    Arthur, congrats on being a long term member of the SNP. Pity you are now morphing into a nasty troll yourself. I don’t remember telling you not to post anything.

  339. Arthur C says:

    @ Bob Mack @ 10.48pm
    “You appear to be a somewhat ” disturbed” individual.”

    “Chaff” as they say in the trade, wee see you.

  340. Bob Mack says:

    @Arthur C,

    Caught me again. You want some tickets for the Secret Police Ball. I get a good staff discount.

  341. Cubby says:

    RobertThe Truth@9.39pm

    “What are you on about.”

    Too thick to understand or deflection Mr Truth.

    I’ll repeat for you – what is the case for slagging off the SNP/Scotgov that assists Scottish independence. Come on even a diddy like you can understand that. Give it your best shot.

  342. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Had a pretty heated discourse in our centre today.

    “They’ll not give us a Section 30”
    “So who has said that?”
    “Well they’ve said they will postpone it, delay it etc etc etc”
    “But have they definitively said they wont allow one?”
    “Well no. But they’ll not give us one.They imply they will oppose it They won’t agree. We need a Plan B”

    “Well,we know Plan A is a referendum with a section 30. What is Plan B?”
    “We have a General Election with Independence as the issue”
    “Okay. What if they don’t agree that a General Election is an appropriate vote for independence? Any more than a referendum.”
    “Well I don’t know. How could they say no?”

    “Well you just said they would say no to a referendum with a section 30. Why wouldn’t they say no to an Independence General Election as well?”
    “Well I don’t know. Perhaps we need a Plan C?”
    “And what would that be?”

    “Well I haven’t thought about that. Perhaps a Scottish Parliament Election on an independence ticket?”
    “And what if they say no to that as well?”
    “Well I don’t know really”

    “So Plan A – a referendum – is the most sensible way forward?. No other way is any likelier to succeed”

    and on and on and on

  343. Iain mhor says:

    “Yes” support from “others” (including voters of other parties) in 2014, was greater than the SNP voters share. Just thought I’d mention it.
    Unless that is, there were 1,619,634.768 SNP Yes voters (there weren’t)
    I don’t believe Wings touts itself as an SNP site and considering the above – it means there will be a considerable number of non-SNP voters/members contributing here.

    Whether or not criticism of the SNP helps or hinders the Indy cause is a moot point, but fair enough argument I’d say. However, accusing all who do so of being Unionists, or anti-Indy, is a bit naive I’d have thought.

    Ach well, ma coupon stoated up fur the fitba. # 1 rule – work oot whit it’s worth tae ye, tae see yer team/sportsman win – bet it oan the ither lot! – Yer either laughing, or huv the price o a nice bottle o Scotch tae bubble intae.
    Now, if only ah wiz a minted Unionist, Ah could be engineering elections and short sellin fur the big money! 😉

  344. Bob Mack says:


    SNP members over 120,000.
    Votes for yes in referendum 1,600,000.

    Not all indy voters are SNP. Even then the SNP were being crucified in the media to little effect.

  345. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack @12.32pm

    ” not all Indy supporters are SNP ” thanks for that Bob – I guess I had worked that one out as I am not a member of any political party.

    Is that your case for slagging off the SNP/ Scotgov on Wings. Well with respect it’s not very strong in my opinion. Perhaps if they weren’t crucified in the media the 1.6m may have been 2m.

    Why do the Britnats need to slagg off the SNP on Wings they have a full range of broadcast media and newspapers?

  346. Bob Mack says:


    The simple fact is that not everybody who has issues with the SNP or Nicola is a Britnat. People think for themselves as individuals and not as a collective.

    I remember Alex Salmond, perhaps our greatest leader being expelled from the party for being too socialist.

  347. dadsarmy says:

    That Aileen McHarg article on the LSE blog in May 2015:

    previously April 29th 2015:

    Of relevance to the trust / distrust / mistrust / agnostic for the SNP is this:

    The more power it is able to exercise at Westminster, the less compelling becomes the argument for complete separation. Happily then for the SNP, by treating it like a pariah, the Unionist parties seem determined to make its case for it.

    It seems that even back in 2015, the likes of Peter A Bell, Craig Murray and now the Rev, were not alone in casting a critical eye.

  348. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Lenny Hartley @ 21:00,

    Well, congrats, you win the day prize anyway for spectacularly (+belatedly) missing the point.

    I actually couldn’t give a damn what you read or don’t read. That’s your business. Duh.

  349. Robert Louis says:

    Oh FFS. Pete Wsihart is apparently thinking of standing for the post of speaker of the house of commons again.

    THIS is the kind of thing which really winds people up. To Wishart, it seems, it is all a jolly hoot, a game, to play. This is what happens to good people who spend too long in London, and forget just how much Westminster is utterly despised back in Scotland.

    But, hey, what a jolly jape, Pete. tee hee. How you can all chuckle over drinks on the terrace…

    Meanwhile Scotland is about to get dragged out of the EU against its wishes, but never mind, Pete’s having a right laugh.


  350. Graeme says:

    Robert Louis says:
    10 September, 2019 at 5:49 am

    “Oh FFS. Pete Wsihart is apparently thinking of standing for the post of speaker of the house of commons again.

    THIS is the kind of thing which really winds people up. To Wishart, it seems, it is all a jolly hoot, a game, to play. This is what happens to good people who spend too long in London, and forget just how much Westminster is utterly despised back in Scotland.

    But, hey, what a jolly jape, Pete. tee hee. How you can all chuckle over drinks on the terrace…

    Meanwhile Scotland is about to get dragged out of the EU against its wishes, but never mind, Pete’s having a right laugh.


    I agree Robert, When I first heard of Pete’s intention to stand for Speaker of the House of Horrors, I made the decision to cancel my SNP membership, I even went as far as writing an email explaining why, this was not the only thing pissing me off about the SNP but it felt like the final straw, as it turned out I didn’t do it, but if he’s serious and stands then I will.

    I joined the SNP because I want independence nothing else and I expect them to fight for that with every sinew in their body , I don’t pay a subscription so he can become and cosy part of the diseased & corrupt institution they call a parliament denying us our right to self determination and my childrens & grandchildrens right to grow up a fairer, more prosperous country.

    I read far more than I post on this site but I’ve noticed more and more lately a certain Thou shalt speak no ill of the SNP from a few posters but this decision is a step too far for me and a slap in teeth to every indy supporter who goes on the marches, runs the street stalls, write their blogs, chaps on doors and delivers leaflets etc

  351. Skintybroko says:

    Oh dearie me what a load of shite spouted on this site now, we’ll done Stu – fair opened a can of worms there.

    Wrt Pete Wishart standing for speaker, good in him, he won’t get elected but if he did just think how much fun he could have during the period between us voting for independence and then actually leaving the Uk.

    As several have said here not every independence supporter is an SNP supporter but if you truly want independence suck it up and support the SNP this one last time and if they fail to deliver that’s the time to look for alternatives because at the moment there is no alternative.

  352. Socrates MacSporran says:

    When I was born, HM the Queen’s father was still Emperor of India. I got my wee tin of chocolates etc when the Queen was crowned. I can recall that strange ceremony when, newly-crowned she came to Scotland to look at, but not touch, the Honours of Scotland; and over the years I have become used to seeing that lady laying the first wreath at the Cenotaph and so on.

    So, I am probably one of those older Scots who can happily live within a monarchy. No longer, all that changed at around 2am this morning, as I watched the prorogation ceremony from Westminster.

    What a load of shite. In 2019 we still have arcane language, HM commands, the doffing of caps, ermine robes, a woman in fancy dress, carrying a big stick, and ordering the MPs to follow her.

    They are having a laugh – at us.

    I can see, as ever, when the English will not fight with us, but simply ignore us, then we Scots go to our default position and start fighting among ourselves.

    Well, the time is now upon us, when we stop the internal bickering, rise up and be a nation again. I am fed-up hearing Ian Blackford assuring the House of Commons: “Scotland will not be dragged out of Europe against its will.”

    The UK is leaving on 31 October, with or almost certainly without a deal – that much is certain.

    It is time for the SNP to stop talking and threatening and to: DAE SOMETHIN’

    Bugger the Section 30 order, get the Indy Referendum started. Tell them where to shove their Act of Union, but, get us out of there – NOW.

  353. Astonished says:

    Socrates – May I second your post with all my heart.

    I loathe the labour party for all their useless platitudes. I cannot sit idly by while the SNP start doing the same.

    P.S. I also think the SNP should sue the next person that lies about them. I imagine it will be easily crowdfunded.

  354. Thomas Currie says:

    A friend put me on to the drive and vigour of Wings over Scotland for the cause of independence and I have quite enjoyed the articles, but I have noticed that since it was mooted that Wings could become a political party the rhetoric has changed somewhat with negative doom and gloom output like this. Has Wings started to campaign trying to make itself differentiated from the SNP as a choice? Go back to what you did best as part of a concerted effort please for all of Scotland. Wings over Scotland/SNP is just akin to Torys/Brexit Party. It divides the cause rather than furthers it.

  355. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Socrates MacSporran (7.53) –

    Hear hear.

  356. manandboy says:


    From the Irish Times of August 14. nancy-pelosi-undermines-trump-adviser-over-brexit-trade-deal-1.3986220

    An article like this would never be published in a ‘British’ newspaper. That’s because the English Establishment will not tolerate the kind of truth that only exists in the inferior outside world, populated by dangerous and probably infected foreigners.

    That ‘kind of truth’ is the truth about Great Britain’s staggering lack of greatness. It’s like describing Dr Harold Shipman as a ‘great man’.
    According to the Independent newspaper, “Shipman, a family GP working in Hyde, Manchester, is thought to have killed 218 patients with lethal injections of diamorphine between 1975 and 1998, when he was finally apprehended.

    These latter stages of the Brexit project, with the changeover to Johnson & Cummings, now appear more and more like a drug-induced fantasy.
    Johnson’s performance in Dublin yesterday must have made the global political community wonder about the UK PM’s state of mind, again.
    And as for having the dignity, the gravitas, and respect for one’s hosts, as in taking the trouble to prepare a carefully worded speech, and, at least, but still important, paying attention to one’s attire and grooming. Johnson displayed his trademark lack of respect for others. With the world outside the UK watching, and taking note.

  357. Ottomanboi says:

    Instead of patriotic singing the SNP should have walked out, to stay out never to return.
    There has to be a profound change of perspective. Let England and its parliament go hang.
    Have just read how the young Jawaharlal Nehru was impressed by Sinn Féin’s ploy of simply ignoring, marginalizing England and getting on with the process of liberating Ireland free of concern for the British their fabulous constitution and their conceited ‘rule of law’, their law.
    The prison gates are ungarded, Go! Go! Go!

  358. Famous15 says:

    As I have said many times ,I cried at the cruel ,self harming result in the 2014 referendum.

    I do not want to repeat that grief.

    I want to win and to win you have to think and be positive and I know not nor care if paid infiltrators are sowing fear and despondency on this site or elsewhere. Why? Because I see a change and a serious desire for independence from past waverers. I detect a real desire to end this harmful Union of unequals.

    In a few weeks we will all know whether Nicola Sturgeon will lead us to independence or whether the pressure from a greater YES movement will flood us over the line.

    I will be busy persuading and explaining in these few weeks.

  359. manandboy says:

    Socrates, ‘The UK is leaving on 31 October, with or almost certainly without a deal – that much is certain.’

    I think you’ll find that that is far from certain.

  360. starlaw says:

    manandboy 10 ; 36

    I heard the same from a republican senator two weeks ago. Trump does no deals for the USA its Congress that does the deals, and GFA must be honoured or no trade deals will be forthcoming with the USA. More lies from the Tories.

  361. Bob Mack says:

    From the evidence of the postings so far this morning, we clearly see ourselves as being on a “war footing”.

    I hope the SNP are the same. It does not auger well that one of our MPS wishes to apply for the Speakers job, potentially giving up a vote to neutrality. Perhaps he thinks he can follow Bercow in rule breaking to our advantage, but I doubt this is the motive.

    The time is rapidly approaching when the voters must demand from their party those things which are important.

    Please don’t say hold ,hold,hold, because the English cavalry ran over us already last night..

  362. Tammytroot says:

    The Scots parliament must, in a union of equals, be the de facto parliament of the UK at the momemt.

  363. Hackalumpoff says:

    See Nana’s links here:

  364. Colin Alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    The UK state is sovereign over Scotland only because we give it permission to be. We did so in 2014.

    You’re heated debate concisely sums up the conundrum the SNP / Scotland finds itself in. As long as the UK state is sovereign over Scotland it can do whatever it wants. It’s sovereign. That includes proroguing devolution Holyrood to block the current SNP mandate of Holyrood holding an indyref.

    That’s how the SNP, if there’s an election, should seek a democratic mandate from the sovereign people of Scotland that Scotland has provisionally reserved sovereignty to Scotland until Scotland holds its own Scottish indyref.

  365. Mac says:

    Ottomanboi says:
    10 September, 2019 at 8:44 am
    Instead of patriotic singing the SNP should have walked out, to stay out never to return.


  366. Dorothy Devine says:

    Gentlemen , had they walked out and stayed out the media would have a field day of ” why would anyone vote for them , they are not doing their job’ etc.etc.etc.

    I am weary , weary of those in Westminster who can lie , break the law and remain in their seats and unpunished.

    I am weary of the carping and all those who appear to think they know better than the Scottish Government – may I remind you all they are up against a media which happily distorts , misquotes and ignores.

    Listen to john Swinney’s speech , passionate and forward looking . Aye , it’s only words but it is meant to fire up ordinary folk who believe in their country to get out there and talk at bus stops , in shops , wherever there is the opportunity to further independence and persuade.

    It is up to us , not just the SNP and we have to find the way round the BBBC, STV and the mass bands of the press.

    To disintegrate into small hissing groups is to allow others to take advantage .

  367. Socrates MacSporran says:


    Please, get real – the principal reason for Brexit, is so that the Toerag party’s big hitters and their backers can avoid the new EU regulations on offshore banking etc. That comes into effect in January, 2020.

    For them to avoid the perils of this, the Toerags MUST get us out of the EU before then. They cannot risk an extension which takes the UK past the date for the implementation of these new rules. We will be gone, with or without a deal by 31 October.

    What happens to the UK does not concern them, it’s all about protecting their ill-gotten gains.

  368. jfngw says:

    That’s a 6-0 defeat for Johnson so far, rumours are the SFA are eyeing him up for the Scotland managers job when he gets the boot from WM.

  369. Colin Alexander says:

    Regarding a General Election, on 28th August 2019 Nicola Sturgeon said on Twitter:

    “Bring it on. Have the courage of your convictions, Boris Johnson. Call an election now – with polling day before Oct 31 – and let the people vote. Or are you frit?”

    Last night the SNP then abstained on the motion for a GE.

    “Labour, the SNP, the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party, the Independent Group for Change and Plaid Cymru had met on Monday morning and agreed not to back the motion for an election”, says the BBC.

    Parliament is now prorogued until 14 October 2019, unless a court orders otherwise.

    Brexit day is scheduled for 31 October 2019.

    That’s the facts, draw your own conclusions.

  370. Bob Mack says:

    Dorothy Device states.”we are up against a media which happily distorts,misquote and ignores”

    That’s true, but is it better to accept that position ,or to take the initiative?

    There is no such thing as bad publicity. I have seen the worst of individuals and organisations do stupendously controversial things and come out of it smelling like roses. Boris Johnson comes to mind,yet he is leading popularity polls .

    We must court publicity in every for. For example, remaining in the Commons whilst the rest went to hear the Lords has angered the English public who follow politics. I would make hay with that,believe me.

    Personally I would be so troublesome that it would make the news beaming directly into every household in the UK

    Problem is that they set the rules and we follow them.

  371. manandboy says:


    Within PM JOHNSON’S private think tank at No10, headed by one of the world’s political and strategic super brains in Mr Cummings, they must know the basic reality of the UK ‘s current position. And yet they plough on regardless, and yes, almost oblivious to the facts.

    But if that’s the case, then how are we to understand the choice of path they are pursuing. Well, one thing seems clear, they are determined to leave the EU, even though this means a minimum of economic suicide. Which begs the question, what is it about the EU that they, and their anonymous masters in the Establishment, are desperate to get away from. Yep. You’ve guessed it. It’s the imminent EU tax laws requiring transparency in all offshore FUNDS. THE ordinary Leave voters have different reasons for leaving but they don’t have secret tax evading offshore trusts and bank accounts.

    But if it’s holding on to wealth that motivates them, then they will be desperate to also keep control of Scotland’s vast resources. They will have figured out that this will be easier to do from outside the EU, especially if it involves the Army, with their shiny new soldier carriers.

    So what about the majority of the UK population, who will suffer badly due to leaving the EU. Softened up by 9 years of Austerity, the ordinary people will, they conclude, just get on with it.

    And the Backstop in Northern Ireland? With the DUP no longer required to keep the Tory government afloat, they will be sacrificed, or there will be reunification. With demographic changes moving toward a Republican majority, its going to happen sooner or later.

    But you know what, there’s an awful lot of water still to flow under the bridge, and who knows what that will bring.
    Nothing should surprise us.

    One thing is for sure, as Leo Varadkar pointed out yesterday, with Mr Johnson by his side, and probably sending Nigel Farage into apoplectic orbit, Brexit will not be a ‘let’s get it over with and be finished with it’ affair. ‘Leaving’ with a rucksack can be done simply and quickly. But not when you have the whole UK economy and 55 million people to get sorted first.

    And so to Trade Deals. In 2018, UK exports to the EU were £289 billion (46% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £345 billion (54% of all UK imports). Best of luck with the ‘clean break’ Brexit, Boris. But not to worry, Nigel and the genius will help.

    Finally, the hard bit. How do we get our Independence back again, and go on to live a normal life again as the Scottish Nation, sovereign, independent and free to make our own decisions, ruled, not by the English this time, but by ourselves, the People of Scotland.

  372. HandandShrimp says:


    My conclusion is that Parliament is trying to get an extension until the 31st of Jan so they can have a November election without Boris sneakily leaving the EU once Parliament is dissolved for an October election. Given his blatant dishonesty a fair concern.

    Whether thus is a good strategy is moot. Boris could get sympathy votes if he is forced to extend. I think on balance an election now with the mess, whip removal and resignations would go against Boris. Yes he could sneakily leave but if he got humped in the election then the incoming government could negotiate in good faith to fix things. If Boris wins in October or November then the EU issue is done and dusted regardless…probably no deal exit and all that entails.

  373. Ken500 says:

    For goodness sake stop attacking the SNP. The best chance for Independence. The mess is not the SNP’s fault or the 120,000 members. Smart hardworking folk who want to make the world a better place and give up their time money and effort to do it. They should be commended not criticised on a Independence supporting website. Instead of people cutting off their nose to spite their face. Totally negative and reckless. Just leave that to the opposition.

    Stop constantly the SNP or it will destroy the website. If that is the intention. Hysterical, self destruction does not help anyone. Or the situation. Calm down and learn some patience. It might be more constructive, instead of hysterical over reaction. Lashing out in all directions. None constructive and boring. Self harming.

    There is no mystic meg. Pollsters, especially in a tight situation, always get it wrong.

    Another IndyRef will be held be held when it can be won. When the electorate vote for it.

    Consider the different result of a GE and a Ref.completely different conditions of each.

    The statistics are now being manipulated to influence the vote. Falling right into the trap, Not constructive or conclusive.

    Constantly attacking the SNP members does not help the Independence cause in any way shape or form. It does the opposite. Plays right into the opposition. A negative reaction.

    Instead of constantly criticising the SNP more people should join. More people should join, donate and campaign to help the Independence cause.

    This mess is not 120,000 (SNP) people fault in anyway shape or form. Statistically impossible.

    The one constant – support for the SNP/Independence is rising. Thank goodness. Celebrate that for a change. Change the record and appreciate that. Stop the negativity. It is so boring. Where is the nonsense coming from. A different direction. Not for the faint hearted. If people cannot stand the heat go out of the kitchen. Or calm down before they start a fire storm. No constructive at all. One campaign at a time is the best way of winning. There are more good people than bad. History shows out that fact. In general people care about others. Scotland is in a better place than the rest of the UK because of good, savvy governance.

    The Nine news programme is not as bad of the others. It was on by accident. Usually no news broadcast is watched, for sanity,

  374. Bob Mack says:

    @Ken 500,

    I admire your loyalty, but you must understand that the current crisis at Westminster is caused by a party who listens to nobody. That is what happens when you cannot hold your elected officials to account. It is akin to dictatorship.

    The SNP are no different in being answerable to their members and their voters I’m afraid.

  375. Ken500 says:

    Johnston will not last until October. The Tories could not make a bigger mess. An absolute shambles as usual. Thank goodness their are good people to stand up against them. The Westminster imbeciles could not make a bigger mess, People will stand up against them and change direction. It is inevitable. There are more good people than bad in the world. Looking out for each other. The Tories and their companions are toast. Trying to take people for fools and getting away with it. The electorate are not fools. A majority of people can see through exactly what they are doing. Scotland is in a better place because of it with SNP governance. A majority of good smart, savvy, well educated people who care for themselves and others, They do well because they care. Unlike some others.

    Never, ever trust a Tory unionist in Scotland. Or self destruct. History has proved it. The Tories are killing off their own supporters, the elderly, because they do not care.

  376. David P says:

    I’ve been lurking a lot the last few months – busy times! – but thought I’d follow up on the BBC reports that “Nothing happened in Perth” on Saturday 7th of September. That’ still the case.

    However, if you look for local news in Merthyr Tydfil, there was a march in support of Welsh independence!

    Make of this what you will.

  377. galamcennalath says:

    The UK simply doesn’t have government of the people, by the people, for the people, and that has been lain bare over the last days, weeks, whatever.

    Three things are fundamentally wrong and unsurprisingly they are all not European …

    – FPTP voting and all that stems from it. Elections where the winner has always lost the popular vote. Large broadchurch parties which are inherently unstable and suffer from infighting. Voter disengagement.

    – A media which doesn’t do it’s job. Power is not held to account. Blatant bias. Too much opinion, not enough information. The population are not well informed.

    – A ruling class where too many are from private boarding schools. These produce sociopaths with confidence far beyond their abilities. Perhaps it suited for running an evil empire, it is not a good system in 21stC.

  378. manandboy says:

    Socrates, thanks for replying, albeit a little brusquely.

    Answer me this, how on earth is the EU going to implement and enforce its new Tax laws, on a UK which is about to leave the EU within, say, the next two – six months?

    Remember, the EU, for all its exasperation over Brexit, has not yet quite come to terms with the possible and very sizeable reduction of the £345 billion worth of European goods & services it exports to the UK. The EU is nothing if not flexible. With 27 member states, how could it be otherwise.

    According to the House of Commons, the UK is not yet ready to leave the EU and it is unlikely that that will change before the extension date of October 31st, especially now that there will be no General Election before that date.

  379. Ken500 says:

    This situation is not the fault of the SNP or the 120,000 members. Statistically impossible, Fact, Constantly criticising the SNP and the members will not help the appalling situation created by others. An IndyRef will happen when the electorate vote for it as necessary. Quite simple.

    The SNP are holding the line in the appalling situation against the opposition. As usual doing the right thing, Stop the non constructive criticism. It does not help the situation in anyway shape or form. Just dire and unnecessary. Self destructive. Leave that to the opposition,

  380. Terry callachan says:

    It’s all fine being angry that nothing is happening regards a Scottish independence referendum yes I know you want one NOW.
    I would love one now as well BUT we all know that the mandate for having one is that we are taken out of the EU against our will or some other grave concern .

    We have to wait until brexit actually happens
    Yes some of us might think there are good enough reasons to have the referendum NOW on the grounds that Westminster is a shambolic disgrace but to be fair BREXIT is the bigger concern and the more likely choice of reason for a Scottish independence referendum.

    The SNP are waiting to see if brexit actually happens ,no matter what we all think there is so much confusion so many lies and smokescreens that we really can’t say for certain what will happen.

    The thing is Westminster doesn’t know what will happen so we have to bide our time.

    It’s close.

    The SNP will not let us down

    They didn’t come this far just to capitulate at the last minute so come on stand firm , don’t be swayed by the ever changing stories in the press , on the tv and radio you know you can’t trust it.

    This is when we have to stick together

    The “wings party” is for another day another discussion

    Let’s get brexit sorted first and set a path once we know the conclusion of that particular problem

    The only way forward right now is with the SNP at the helm , you know it’s true

    Anything else at this stage weakens our team

  381. Breeks says:

    Be nice if Joanna Cherry’s appeal succeeded, requiring Westminster to un-prorogue itself, the Tories refused, and Scotland’s government both the London and Edinburgh contingents to sit regardless, and came together for a unified parliamentary session to reaffirm the constitutional sovereignty of the Scottish people.

    We are sovereign, and we decide when our parliament sits. I’m not even convinced we’d need the legal appeal to succeed, but a timely input from Scots Law and a true Scottish Scottish parliament would be a tonic for the troops.

    Be nice too if there was a bit of work beforehand, and the Scottish Parliament was able to receive a formal EU delegation for an emergency summit…

    Sigh Aye, I’m dreaming again… We’ll line up another battery of excuses for doing nothing, and smearing folks who are left exasperated but Scotland’s supine political timidity.

    Scotland’s parliament was prorogued in 1707, which arguably means the Auld Scots Parliament and the UK Parliament are both held in abeyance by the same “prorogued” protocol. We can recall our Scottish Parliament more readily than we can recall Westminster. Wouldn’t it be grand if we did?

  382. Ken500 says:

    The UK will never leave the EU completely in any way shape or form. It is too destructive. Any politician who sanctions it will be gone. Self destructive. It will not happen. Not supported by the majority.

    A Ref and GE election are totally different. Different statistics. Different, different. Pollsters ,especially in tight margins are wrong. The statistics are wrong. Not conclusive ever. An interesting exercise but not totally constructive. Pollsters are often wrong. Used to try and influence the vote by money launderers and crooks. Some of whom end up in jail. The Tories are self destructive. The only way possible for cUsing the mess. (Along with the LibDems) For ever having if sanctioning a EURef in the first place. They were warned but as usual would not take good advice in the first place. The Tory unionist are self destructive.

    This situation is caused by the Tory Party imbeciles ever sanction a EURef in the first place, without a mandate. Against sensible advice knowing the harm it could cause. The LibDems are implicit in the shambles too.

    The only way the economy improved after Thatcher (Tory) destruction was closer ties with EU/Europe even members of the Tory Party who succeeded knew it.

    Brexit in the present form will never happen. The Tories will just self destruct. They are doing so so already. Independence will more than likely come out of it. The Tory unionists are the main opposition to it.

    Independence will come from EU/UN International Law and good, caring just people. The rights to self governance and self determination. The electorate/people have to vote for it. That will happen.

  383. Martin says:

    I’m glad you crunched all those numbers, Stu, because my explanation which I found extremely simple seems to have had no effect on anyone I’ve spoken to.

    “Why on earth would Labour give the SNP indyref2 if SNP MPs are the only thing keeping them in government?”

    Apparently “because the SNP would demand it” is the response, completely overlooking the fact there are Lib Dem MPs…..Sigh.

  384. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@12.53am

    “The simple fact is that not everyone who has issues with the SNP or Nicola is a Britnat”

    Bob. I agree with that statement. I have said that myself in the past and it is a pretty self evident statement.

    The points I am making are:

    1. Why do some people keep raising the same anti SNP/Scotgov points over and over again (for years in some instances) in nearly every post they make if they are not Britnats. Particularly when there is plenty of scope at present to criticise the UK gov and all manner of mad Britnats at present but their focus is always SNP baaad.

    2. How does it help the cause of independence to continually slag off the SNP when there is a critical general election coming up in the near future. If the SNP do not do well in this election it will just give more ammo to the Britnats to say there is no demand for an Indyref2. At last nights debate in Hof Commons a Tory MP from Scotland said more people voted leave in Scotland than voted SNP at 2017 GE. Obviously trying to undermine the mandate for holding an Indyref2. Yet some posters on Wings actually say what’s the point of voting SNP in a GE. Really – do Independence supporters really think like this. My motivation is independence – full stop. I am not a party member and hold no great truck with any political party. I believe calling Sturgeon a liar and all the other criticism only harms independence and certainly does not help advance the cause of independence.

    Of course some posters on Wings want to paint me as attacking all people who are critical of the SNP to try and shut me up. No chance. It’s independence and what is needed to achieve that – some discipline and not giving vent to individual frustrations and personal grievances against the SNP. After independence people can post what they want about the SNP and vote for who they want. I don’t really care. What is more important – independence or airing your grievance about the SNP.


    Sunday National Headline

    Sturgeon: SNP win at election will wash away all indyref2 opposition


    The bigger the win the better it is for INDEPENDENCE. It may also be good for the SNP party and individuals standing – so what – that’s secondary.

  385. RobertTheTruth says:

    This is an Independence site. It should and does explore all routes to Independence including using the SNP to secure that aim. If people give their votes in good faith and do not feel that the SNP is working towards that aim satisfactorily in their eyes they are allowed to express that.

    It is up to the SNP to persuade and reassure the anxious and doubtful that faith is justified – no one has any right to tell anyone to keep quiet and suggest we are not sincere in our desire for Independence. The quest for Independence existed before the SNP was formed and will continue beyond their demise if they do not deliver on their stated aim.

    No party should take support or voters for granted.

  386. Terry callachan says:

    To manandboy

    The EU is big, it will cope well enough with Brexit , sure it doesn’t want brexit , it wants more members not less but it will cope well enough.

    The UK will cope as well , we might find that there is a change in what is available to us from overseas and a change in the cost but essentials will still be available , that’s how trade works .

    It’s almost certain these changes will cost us more than now but we will cope.
    There will not be food or medicine shortages ,countries across the world get food and medicines easily enough if they can pay for it so will we.

    Don’t get me wrong I believe the EU is fantastic for the ordinary people but we here in UK have allowed ourselves to be governed by people who do not prioritise the ordinary people and leaving the EU highlights that.

    The laws about offshore accounts avoiding taxation and country to country sharing of taxation avoidance information is something that the EU are keen on but the UK are not , if brexit actually happens then those new laws will not affect the UK directly but indirectly they might affect the UK in future because businesses forced to pay their taxes because of EU laws will eventually take action against those competitors that are avoiding those taxes for sure some of the biggest companies already avoid tax by just moving from country to country but the new EU laws intend to tackle that and I think they will have success after all it’s the market that decides and the market needs people , large numbers of people and the EU has that.
    I think what may well happen is that companies that go on the blacklist held by the EU of companies avoiding tax either in the country where they manufacture or the countries where they sell what is manufactured will eventually be forced to the sidelines of the business world by the EU forbidding the tax paying companies to trade with the blacklisted companies, okay the bigger companies might just cease to trade in the EU full stop but I don’t think the EU fear that, there are always competitors willing to fill the gap, for example “amazon” there are bigger businesses that do the same thing alibaba , etsy , .

    If brexit happens I think we will see new members of the EU coming in , who knows , maybe even Russia, let’s face it the USA causes more wars around the world than all other countries added together many many more than Russia for sure.
    Russia is supplying Europe’s gas and more , I see closer trade links with Russia developing ,they are close to us we would benefit from good relations and greater trading .

  387. Ken500 says:

    All this mess leads back to the ConDems. Blame them. Condemn them. Vote them out.

  388. Bob Mack says:


    A straight answer to your question is Independence. Not necessarily for myself,but most definitely for my grandchildren. I might never see it or enjoy the benefits of my efforts,Who knows?

    I will vote SNP till indy ( and probably wings) should it be launched.

    Regarding holding the SNP to account for its actions, I think that is,or at least should be normal in any party that operates in a Democracy. No party is bigger than the membership,or is less answerable to that membership.

    I wonder how many SNP voters are sitting right now,today, wondering when the wheels of indy 2 will be set in motion?

    Natural enough is it not? The problem arises when the leadership controls that information unto itself. It creates doubt. Not necessarily just for SNP membership, but for the other 1.5 million or so non members who voted last time for indy.

    It is problematic,but it must be solved.

  389. Colin Alexander says:

    Just to make clear: I’m NOT demanding an indyref is held NOW.

    I am stating the the SNP must take action to make certain that an indyref, at a future date, cannot be blocked by the UK state, if the SNP try to hold one.

    The SNP are relying on a belief that the UK Govt and UK MPs will eventually cave in to moral pressure to do the right thing and give Scotland permission to hold one under devolution.

    One thing we know for certain: morality to do the right thing, is one quality UK Govts and many MPs lack, especially when it comes to their Scotland colony.

  390. Ken500 says:

    Cameron has a book out. Trying to make money from his appalling behaviour. An alcoholic imbecile. Promoted above his station and capabilities by a bunch of imbeciles. Alcoholics make poor judgement without proper, total abstinence, rehab counselling, which should be held in the hands of the NHS medical services, Cameron cut public services totally unnecessary. More monies wasted. Austerity.

    Do not buy the book or read it. Bin it. He was binned. Total imbecile. Wasted £Billions of public money. Still milking the public money of total waste. HS2/Hinkley Point. The Tory slush fund. Cameron and his cronies noses still in the trough. Despicable. People are dying because of them.

    SNP MUP policy helps the situation of over consumption. Stops people dying.

  391. Lenny Hartley says:

    Socrates MacSporran The Maybots deal would have left the UK outside EU legal Juristition. I think whilst escaping from the EU tax avoidence laws is a bonus the main goal of this right wing pro US government is the breakup of the EU.
    Follow the money, it is traceable to Mercer who bankrolled Trump, and both Leave factions in Brexit Steve Bannon etc etc. The right in the USA want to break up the EU as they see it as a threat to American Hedgemony in the West. Have a read at Wikipedia’s take on Mercer especially the Brexit section.

  392. Ken500 says:

    The US will never break the EU. Statistically impossible. US population 320million people. The EU pop 500million people. Numerically there are more EU people to stand up to the US people. The EU wins.

    EU formed to stop starvation and war after 11WW. Most successful partnership ever.

    The US/UK (not Trump) illegal wars killing and maiming millions of people. Causing havoc and destruction worldwide. Trump has not started an illegal war, yet. The US people were sick of it. That is why they voted for him. D’Hond’t. The loser win but is more successful in stopping war and strife. To be commended for a better prosperous less wasteful world.

  393. Robert Kerr says:

    Hot off the Press

    Phil Hogan confirmed as EU Trade Commissioner!

    Well done Ursula!

    Well done Ireland in Europe!

  394. call me dave says:

    Shurley schome mishtake!

    Get that Saltire taxi for Pete Wishart considering Speaker’s job?
    Rumours and whispers I hope. 🙂

    Boris finds Teresa’s old crumpled deal in his back pocket, what to do?…Resign and join the Brexit party or dust if off and try his luck.

    Not easy resigning as Queenie will ask, but who’s going to form a government, names please!

  395. Iain mhor says:

    @call me dave 11:27am

    It’s no surprise if Boris did find Teresa’s old deal in his back pocket – he’ll have dusted it off alright – the pair of them are clearly off their tits on drugs.

  396. Ken500 says:

    It is not for the SNP 120,000 people to ‘persuade’ people. Statistically impossible. It is up to some, a majority of 4million + people pop to support them. They are given the facts and argument. It is up to them to make their choice of support. The electorate to use their powers of rationale and competence to give support, The tail is not wagging the dog.

    A majority of people in Scotland are making that choice in the interest of society and community caring about others. Well may that continue improving the society and economy,

    The SNP need all the support they can get to stand up to tryanny. Join, donate campaign. Do not leave it to others. A relative small number of people. Engage.

  397. cirsium says:

    @Socrates MacSporran, 7.53

    I am fed-up hearing Ian Blackford assuring the House of Commons: “Scotland will not be dragged out of Europe against its will.”


  398. call me dave says:

    @Iain mhor

    Aye! Evokes thoughts on what a Tory ‘three line’ whip actually is

    Maybe get Queequeg the harpooner in Moby Dick to throw the bones and read the runes… Oh wait! He built his own coffin.

  399. Bob Mack says:

    “It is not for the SNP 120,000 to persuade people.” states Ken 500.

    That’ll save some shoe leather near election time.

  400. Cubby says:

    Many people have stated that the SNP is the vehicle to gain independence. I agree. Unlike some I have no intention of continually letting the air out of the tyres. Does anyone really think it is not playing into the Britnats hands by agreeing to turn Wings into an anti SNP/Scotgov splurgefest. This is the end game – not 1990 – not a debating forum. I have posed the question on numerous occasions that if Wings is an independence supporting site then how exactly does saying Sturgeon is a liar and continually criticising the SNP/Scotgov advance the cause of independence. The right to criticise is the only response. That of course does does not answer the question. It is purely self indulgent.

    PS in case you haven’t noticed this is not normal times. The wholly admiral and correct notion of holding your government to account in normal times does not apply in these circumstances. Independence needs unity and support for the vehicle of change the SNP. Anything else undermines our chance of winning the prize. If this vehicle does not deliver independence then a totally new vehicle will obviously be required but this is to any sensible person the completely wrong time to change your vehicle.

  401. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Get real and stop this shite – even if JK is too immature to do so (as he seems to be, having deleted similar posts from me), show an example – get a grip, please.”

    Stop what shite? I’ve restricted myself to a couple of tweets and a couple of comments on his site. He’s the one who’s been banging on about it non-stop for weeks in increasingly demented and hysterical terms in a series of blog posts. I’m done with it.

  402. Iain mhor says:

    Apologies for length in advance:
    We know much of SNP policy, if it can be defined at all it is clearly ‘Stop Brexit’, or at the very least ‘Avoid No Deal’ with Independence the longer game – ie after Brexit has been resolved.
    In order to achieve this, the idea is to work in coalition with ‘Opposition Parties’. The caveat being, this means opposition to the current Tory government which is in power not (and let’s be very clear) not necessarily opposition to Tory Brexit policy.
    The idea is A/ Achieve an election with No deal off the table B/ Get a coalition government C/ Steer Remain factions to (if not a majority) at least a healthy ratio of position in coalition government.
    Having achieved this, the plan is then: A/ a second Euro referendum, B/ a soft trade/customs Brexit deal – The SNP’s price for assisting, we know, will be a Section 30 order.

    Concurrent with this, will be some nod to Independence for Scotland, but will not be an inclusion in any GE manifesto. For one, this pre-empts the *ahem* trust and goodwill it hopes to receive from coalition partners in regards the S30. Further, it increases the chances of the SNP being lent votes by the Scottish electorate, to strengthen their position and vote bloc/seats within coalition to achieve their respective aims. Consequent to this, then the SNP may move to holding an independence referendum, but the timescales involved are anyones guess.

    Not the least of the dangers of this plan, is actually achieving (in coalition) a second EU referendum; which sets a precedent for demanding a further Independence referendum, should an Indy2 be successful. Engineering a coalition which delivers a ‘Soft Brexit’ to a lesser degree also sets a precedent, in that it may well be viewed as an overturning of democracy.
    That will not go down well with the most ardent Brexiteers and ‘Hard Brexit’ Indy supporters (or those who are of more ardent democratic mind) Notwithstanding this, there is a probable section of the Indy minded electorate who may ‘go back to sleep’ if the worst deprivations of Brexit are avoided (or even overturned altogether in a Euroref)

    The third pifall is the obvious one, that there is a high probability the SNP finds itself in a coalition delivering Brexit (in whichever form) directly against the wishes and mandate of the Scottish electorate. To avoid that, obviously the second Euro referendum option would be desirable – but of course that stumbles into the confirmatory referendum precedent.
    The SNP may assist in engineering a coalition government, which achieves any or all of these and yet not be in coalition government itself, thereby thinking to avoid opprobrium. But the electorate will know where to point the finger – if they forget, the MSM will not be long in reminding them.
    As for not just receiving a Section 30 as reward, but it being honoured in the observance – Well, history tells Scotland that Westminster promises are more honoured in the breach.

    Why not then leave Westminster to its own devices That is because the SNP believe it could damaging and seen as the SNP not fighting to deliver the mandate their electorate gave them, to remain in the EU. Potentially losing a lot of the Scottish soft indy vote/SNP votes. The Scottish electorate may punish you for not opposing Brexit and punish you for delivering it. Scotland in its infinite wisdom delivered two mandates : Keep us in the EU and give us a second Independence referendum. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

    There is a choice of standing aside from Brexit, stop fighting it and pushing purely the Independence mandate. Trusting that ultimately, failure to contest or ameliorate Brexit does not translate into punishment and lost Indy votes. It’s certainly a compelling choice for many (I lean towards it myself)
    But, if we are to take at face value the suggestion that the Scottish electorate are fairly balanced Yes/No (or at least +/-5%) can one risk losing 5-10% of softer Yes voters because Brexit wasn’t fought to the death, Politically they don’t want to blow another Indyref – it would finish them and probably us for an aeon. Would we really lose Indy votes though? Tricky.

    The SNP have fought the good fight and are to be saluted. How far they should continue to battle Brexit is what vexes us – Tommy Shephard gave us a clue yesterday* Others within the SNP have also suggested Brexit is the priority – Indy to follow (with a hint to Autumn 2020) But that date may be subject to the ‘change in government’ scenario, which they probably hoped to have resolved by next Spring.
    That may take a lot longer after Boris second guessed it with his prorogation – Even the Rev Stu has floated a ‘Wings List’ which must be under expectation of getting to 2021 without an Indyref2.

    I can’t help but feel (with many other Wingers) the time for the SNP to step away from Brexit and Westminster is fast approaching, if it didn’t already go wheeech!. Yet it may be that we can not look to an Indyref before next Autumn and beyond. Buckle up, the ride is far from over.

    * (thanks to Nana earlier)

  403. Bob Mack says:


    If holding your government to account does not apply in these circumstances then you can have no quibble about what Boris Johnson is doing

  404. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@10.58am

    “The problem arises when the leadership controls that information unto itself. It creates doubt.”

    No doubt it does. That is when people have to show strength and resolve to stay the course.

    Bob, do you think Robert the Bruce told all his troops the exact detail of a battle plan long before the battle started.

    To win you have to have confidence in your leaders. If the battle is lost you can criticise and change the leader. Undermining the leader prior to the battle – how exactly does that help.

    All I hear is self important people saying they have the right to criticise even if it does harm to the cause of independence. Picture a soft no voter logging on to Wings for the first time. What will they think – mmmm same as the Daily Mail, Scotsman etc SNP baaaaaad. Yes SNP are baaaad even Wings says so. Result – soft no voter says – Not voting for the SNP.

  405. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@12.36pm

    Comparing apples and pears Bob.

  406. Bob Mack says:


    If Prince Charlie had listened to the Duke of Argyll we would have taken London and England rather than end up at Culloden.
    It’s all relative.

  407. Bob Mack says:


    You are the master of procrastination. You make a statement,have it holed ,and then you claim it means something else.

    Accept the fact you are strongly attached to the SNP, but others may not feel the same way for many reasons. Good luck to you in any event.

  408. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Cubby at 12.46

    Very good post.The only semi coherent assault (and I said “semi-coherent”)assault on the SNP is coming from pretendy supporters of which there is now a proliferation. Because we are so far ahead of our opposition that we are almost out of sight.

    Perhaps I should use up all my time congratulating the SNP which is miles ahead in all polls despite a decade in Government, with independence now ahead in all the polls and we are now preparing for a General Election which suggests on present polling figures that we will win about 55 of Scotland’s 59 seats and probably be in balance of power situation after it as Westminster continues to implode.

  409. Bob Mack says:

    @Dave Mcewan Hill,

    I DONT support the SNP…

    I VOTE FOR THEM. Like thousands of others. Do you want us to stop doing that ?

  410. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Wings over Scotland/SNP is just akin to Torys/Brexit Party. It divides the cause rather than furthers it.”

    Sigh. You understand that neither the Tories nor the Brexit Party have any real chance of delivering Brexit alone if there’s an election, but both of them together will probably do it, right?

  411. Bob Mack says:

    To everybody,.

    This site is NOT an SNP fanzine. It is a forum where political issues are discussed by SNP supporters.former Labour and Lib Dem voters and all hues of the political spectrum.

    They have one thing in common.

    They support independence.

  412. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Perhaps I should use up all my time congratulating the SNP which is miles ahead in all polls despite a decade in Government, with independence now ahead in all the polls and we are now preparing for a General Election which suggests on present polling figures that we will win about 55 of Scotland’s 59 seats and probably be in balance of power situation after it as Westminster continues to implode.”

    So you didn’t read the article, then? Super.

  413. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ken500 you dont half spout utter drivel.

  414. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@12.54pm

    Bob, I would understand your posts better if you actually put the time reference on them

    Sorry Bob, I don’t recognise any of this post. Want to clarify – where do I procrastinate? Have no idea what you are talking about.

    I make a statement, have it holed and claim it is something else you say – what example do you have in mind to back up this statement.

    I am not strongly attached to any political party, never have been, never will and that would include a Wings party. So sorry Bob but your assertion is wrong. I thought I had explained my thinking but hey ho if you don’t want to accept it then that is your prerogative.

  415. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@12.50pm

    More apples and pears Bob.

    My post referred to Robert the Bruce providing the TROOPS with all the battle plans long before the battle.

    Your post refers to Bonnie Prince Charlie conferring with his top ranking advisors.

    Do you think posters on Wings are top ranking advisors?

  416. Bob Mack says:


    Let’s leave it at that Cubby. Better for both of us I think.

  417. wull says:

    Lenny Hartley at 11.06, you are absolutely right. The choice for the UK was never, in fact, between ‘Remain (a member of the EU)’ or ‘Leave (and become that proud and independent Rule-Britannia nation that we used to be, ought to be and will – after Brexit – once again become). That’s how the Remain / Leave option was sold, and a huge number of ordinary Leave-voters (especially in England) swallowed it hook line and sinker.

    What the public were being sold was not simply a dummy, but a very crafty and alluring fly stuck on the end of a deftly wielded fishing line. A line cast by the deadly but virtually unseen fishermen who cooked up the Leave campaign behind the scenes. If the likes of Johnson and Gove and all the rest whom we know about were part of this, they were simply the front men. The shadowy fishermen figures behind them were – and are – all the more sinister for being hidden.

    No one told the Leave voters that the real choice was either to REMAIN part of Europe or BECOME part of the USA. A part of the USA that would remain ostensibly independent, but only because the USA needs to make it SEEM AS IF it has ‘international’ support for whatever venture it undertakes. That, for the USA, is what the UK exists for – subservience – and all it is good for. Far from ‘taking back control’, LEAVE actually meant losing control altogether – to the USA.

    The alternative was to REMAIN in Europe, and RETAIN CONTROL by being one of its many self-governing entities. EACH OF WHICH still has a power of veto over everything of any importance that is proposed. The UK would have continued to be a big player within the EU, wielding much influence and capable of initiating change and reform within it. And its own internal union would not have been so easily and quickly jeopardised (a REMAIN vote would have kept Scottish independence off the table indefinitely).

    Instead of which, LEAVE won, and the UK lost control of itself. So much so that it now has a PM who is a mirror reflection of that loss of control. His infantile ambition was to be a King, not simply a mere PM, and his behaviour demonstrates that he remains the infant he once was. An ‘enfant terrible’, who never grew up. That is to say, an infant who wants to control everyone, but who never learned to control himself. And won’t now. Too late.

    The true meaning of the Leave Campaign’s battle-cry (‘slogan’) of ‘Take Back Control’ is now revealed. ‘Out-of-control Johnson’ now thinks, and acts as if, he is in control of all of us. And the USA (with its own ‘out-of-control’ man in charge) knows, and will increasingly act as if, it has won the game: the UK is captured, it is ours, it is subservient and henceforth it will always have to do our bidding. What England said and thought about Scotland in 1707 – that she had finally trapped us, because the lesser entity in a union will always have to do what the greater entity demands – the powers-that-be in the USA, licking their lips in a similar way, are now saying and thinking about the UK – or, more correctly (and handily for us) – about ‘England’, since they mistakenly equate these two terms (just as merry old England’s propaganda has taught them – and the world – to do).

    Which brings us back to our fly, and its victim, on the end of the craftily wielded fishing line. Insofar as many of the victims of the Leave campaign were of the older generation, it was easy to hook them with tales of bygone glories, and dreams of recaptured youth. They didn’t even realise that these long-gone dreams were already unreal when they were sold them in their younger days. Britain didn’t win the war – America did, and its intention in doing so (even in entering into that war) had always been to liquidate the British Empire. Which was the very opposite of Churchill’s intention – who aimed to save the Empire, and keep it in continual existence. But he lost; Roosevelt won; the British Empire very quickly crashed and came to its end.

    The USA’s policy today is absolutely parallel, virtually the same. What it wants to bring tumbling down this time, however, is not the British Empire but the European Union. For exactly the same reasons. As the Empire did in its day, so the EU in our time is an obstacle to American goods and markets – effectively, the USA’s empire – and it must be dismantled. The leave-voting older generation, self-consoled with nostalgia for a glorious past which never existed, because the truth had always been filtered out of it, and puffed up with vain aspirations to recover the long-gone chimera, were easy prey for their fly-fishing captors.

    More sinister, perhaps, is the fact that the Leave charade campaign was able to dupe so many younger victims as well. Younger ones who have no memory, even vicarious, of the devastating disaster which the Old Fascism of the 1930s and 1940s inflicted on the whole of Europe. Hence, no fear either that something just as bad or even worse could happen again today … And, therefore, no appreciation of what a wonderful achievement the European Union, for all its flaws, really and truly is.

    A strange alliance, this Leave vote. Between blinkered old dreamers who long for a return to the glory days when doughty old Britannia / UK/ England (however they might describe ‘their’ entity) stood up to all those dreadful evils emanating from that terrible Europe (while their own beloved ‘entity’ – however they describe it – never had any evils of its own) on the one hand and, on the other, these naive ‘young Turks’ who chant newly minted and appalling forms of the jingoism of these earlier times, their whitewashed memories recalling nothing of the horror of it all, and of the huge part the EU has played and still plays in overcoming that horror and keeping it defeated. How quickly we forget – or, with the passage of time, seem never to have known. Meanwhile, forgetful of the Old Fascism and the terrible destruction it wrought, various forms of a ‘New Model Fascism’ which despite their differences can quickly be brought together into one movement, one new unified and mighty force for evil, seems to be forming, mostly unnoticed yet under our very noses.

    Pity those Leave-voters who were gullible enough to swallow the delicious bait dangled in front of them, without having a clue about what it really contained. The craftily camouflaged hook went straight down their naively open gullets, and now it is about to skewer and impale them. Insofar as they are unable to change their minds, they will remain gullible to the last. Believing themselves to be taking back control, when in fact the USA will already have routed them and taken everything over. And, without realising it or even signing up for it, they will in fact have already endorsed and even joined up with the New Model Fascism which is already taking over their beloved ‘entity’ – by whatever name they like to call it.

    Meanwhile, the Union that once was termed the ‘UK’ is about to break up in front of them. I have my differences with the SNP, but have no doubt they are about to act.

    What Brexit exactly means is already coming into full view and – to be fair to her, although I am not personally a huge fan – this is indeed the moment Nicola Sturgeon has been waiting for. I think she – and the rest of them – will be ready, and will begin very quickly to show their hand. And there is a good chance this will fully re-unify the SNP leadership. Starting now, there is even a good chance they will be so far advanced on the way to independence that when the Alex Salmond business breaks – as it will, whatever it is – it will neither divide nor derail them in any way.

    Not too long to go now, and the momentum, once started, will keep on growing, and carry everything before it.

  418. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@1.10pm

    I am strongly attached to Scottish independence.

    I would never say ” do want me to stop voting for the SNP”. I do not let any of my personal opinions about the SNP get in the road of remembering that they are the only vehicle at present that can deliver independence particularly as we are so close.

    Similarly if a Wings party was needed on the Scot parliament regional list then I would vote for them if it helped Scottish independence.

    I don’t do half hearted Independence.

  419. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “this is indeed the moment Nicola Sturgeon has been waiting for. I think she – and the rest of them – will be ready, and will begin very quickly to show their hand”

    And that hand will be what, exactly?

  420. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack@2.00pm

    Fair enough. I ain’t for changing my view and neither are you.

  421. Scozzie says:

    Cubby @ 12.46pm
    I don’t see how questions, concerns and criticisms can harm the independence cause…unquestioning following of a strategy with no scrutiny is probably more harmful. I don’t doubt Nicola Sturgeon’s commitment to independence, but I also don’t think an entire nation’s ability to achieve independence should rest on a single person’s vision of strategy.

    I believe such open criticism from the independence movement has led to a couple of small wins – would such a high ranking MSP as John Swinney have attended an AUOB march if it hadn’t of been for criticism of SNP’s lack of support for these marches? Time will tell if Nicola will show her face at one.

    Would the SNP have given pause for thought on the GRA legislation if it wasn’t for a strong backlash and criticism from women’s groups 9many of whom are independence supporters)? Again, time will tell if they do the right thing on this.

    The MSM you refer to and their BTL commenters often infer that independence supporters are SNP ‘cultists’ and ‘sheeple’, so perhaps it would be quite eye-opening to a soft no visiting this site for the first time to learn that we are not all unthinking followers and we do debate and share constructive criticism of SNP strategy.

    Critical thinking in politics is no bad thing.

  422. RobertTheTruth says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill

    Most of the ‘pretendy’ supporters are in YOUR party as SPADS, youth activists, GR activists and grasping careerists who are ripping the heart and soul out of the Indy movement. Your leadership with their turgid managerial style seems intent on prolonging their stay in office as long as possible

    How dare you come on here and spout your arrogant assertions about Independence supporters who do as much as you without all the puffed up SNP blawhard entitlement. I see they managed to get a couple of SNP politicians on the march recently – maybe they did a focus group that told them to get visible at last. It won’t be long before the high heid yins tell you you can’t be seen to associate with the likes of WoS.

    Where will you spout your SNP propaganda then? Nowhere else gives you the reach you have milked for so long.

    The SNP is where it is because of people like me who lend their vote. However, we will not be taken for granted and our integrity questioned especially on a site that has given the SNP so much and been given absolutely nothing in return.

  423. wull says:

    I am not a member of the SNP, Stuart at 2.12 p.m., far less part of any of its inner circles or party to their discussions. So I really don’t know the answer to your question, as posed at 2.12 p.m.

    What Cubby says at 2.10 p.m. pretty much echoes my own position.

    Voting SNP is for me is not an end in itself, but a means to the desired end of independence. When I vote I will judge, according to the circumstances where I live, whether I cast both my votes for the SNP, or whether my list vote would best help to foster the cause by being given not to the SNP but to a different pro-independence Party on the list. Which might well be the Wings Party recently proposed here for the lists.

    Although I may be mistaken, I would have thought that what I have just said pretty much corresponds to the position currently being considered and, basically, proposed by this website.

  424. Cubby says:

    Robert the Truth@7.54pm

    Just making up reasons to churn out your SNP baaaaad propaganda.

    If you actually went to any of the marches you would see that SNP politicians have always attended. So as usual you are posting mince under cover of grandiose statements. You are just another Colin Alexander and that’s my Truth.

    You were unable to put forward any case to explain how posting SNP baaad like some Daily Mail journalist advances Scottish independence. So what percentage of your posts on Wings are Britnats baaaad – want to hazard a guess – what percentage of your posts are SNP baaaad – want to hazard a guess.

    “Our integrity questioned” no just you who thinks they speak for over a million voters – delusional nonsense.

    Give it a rest with your pretendy outrage.

  425. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell at 1.24

    Of course I read your post. I don’t agree with the conclusion.

  426. Cubby says:

    “And that hand will be what, exactly?”

    The hand of freedom.

  427. Stephane Sechaud says:

    The whole point of Plan A is that the UK’s refusal to recognise the multiple mandates we have for IndyRef2 it builds the justification for pursuing Independence via other means, and crucially we can show to our international friends that we tried to play nice, so when we declare UDI it will be accepted at the UN. I get that the IdPol stuff done your nut in, but now your just targeting our allies rather than our enemies.

  428. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Stephane Sechaud at 7:21 pm.

    You mentioned,
    “…so when we declare UDI it will be accepted at the UN.”

    UDI is not a possibility.
    Why not?
    Because the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England (which includes the province of Northern Ireland and the country known as Wales) are in a voluntary union, defined by the Articles Of Union 1707.

    It is an internationally recognised treaty. Either party can withdraw from it. All it needs is a majority of sovereign Scots to indicate (by GE, HE or referendum) that they want Scotland to revert to its independent status and the UK is ended.

    On the other hand, all it needs is a majority of English voters to indicate (by GE or referendum) that they want England to revert to its independent status and the UK is ended.

    UDI is only an option where a part/region of a state wishes to declare its independence from that state, of which it is a part/region.

    Scotland’s situation is not the latter.

  429. Cubby says:


    A very well presented summary of why UDI is not technically what Scotland can do because Scotland is a nation participating in a bipartite international treaty that it has the right to leave at any time it so chooses. As you say so does England.

    The way some of the Tories are whipping up anti Scotland hatred it may well be England that decides to dissolve the treaty first.

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