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The enemies of democracy

Posted on August 15, 2019 by

This poll from Opinium came out a few days ago, but didn’t get as much attention as people might normally have expected, possibly because it was presented in a very difficult-to-follow graphical form. So we’ve sorted it out, and also added in the missing Lib Dem voters.

The takeaway is that a clear majority of voters both in Scotland and the UK now believe that the UK government should accept the Scottish Government’s request for a second independence referendum.

It’s not even especially close. Discounting the don’t-knows, the results are 56-44 in the UK, and 58-42 in Scotland, which alert readers will note are both bigger margins than the No side secured in the actual referendum and must therefore by Unionist law be described as “overwhelming”.

Remain voters, Labour voters and Lib Dem voters all back a second indyref by more than 2:1 (and by 3:1 in the case of the Lib Dems), which may be why John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn have both been seen in recent days saying they wouldn’t block one if Labour was in power.

It’s not an isolated poll, either. It followed on from a Lord Ashcroft one the same week also finding majority support in Scotland for another referendum (and indeed backing independence), and of course polls have consistently found for years that a large majority of Scots – regardless of their views on an indyref specifically – believe that the power to decide on holding referendums should reside at Holyrood, not Westminster.

So let’s be clear on what the implacable refusal of the Scottish opposition parties to countenance another referendum is: an affront not only to democracy as a concept, nor even just to the Scottish Parliament (which has already passed a vote for a second indyref), but to all of the people of Scotland, all of the people of the UK, and to most of their parties’ own voters.

The Scottish Tories, alone, can at least claim to be acting in accordance with the view of their party and their own members and voters. But we also know from numerous polls – most recently a YouGov one for Hope Not Hate just a few days ago – that most Tory voters are more than willing to sacrifice Scotland (and Northern Ireland, and even Wales if need be) to carry out Brexit.

So to recap: Tory voters couldn’t care less if the Scots sod off so long as England can leave the EU, they just don’t want Scots to take the decision. Labour and Lib Dem voters, and Scots as a whole, and UK citizens as a whole, all want to let Scots decide for themselves whether to stay hitched to the UK as it hurtles off the Brexit cliff.

The people preventing it from happening are a tiny minority comprising politicians in the Scottish branch offices of UK political parties – in essence a few dozen individuals, most of them expressly rejected by voters, frustrating the wishes of both a nation of 5 million and a nation of 65 million, for reasons we doubt even the few dozen themselves could coherently explain to you beyond a blind, kneejerk tribal hatred of the SNP, the Scottish Government and the independence movement.

Collectively, in fact, the tiny rump of Unionist MSPs elected via the Holyrood list system are to all intents and purposes the Scottish equivalent of the DUP – at odds with public opinion and reflexively screaming “NO!” regardless of anything that actually happens, because they’ve been doing it for so long they don’t know how to do anything else.

The refusal of a second indyref is a remarkable illustration of the dysfunctional nature of democracy in the UK, though admittedly those aren’t in short supply at the moment. It’s intriguing to speculate about how long it can be sustained.

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    1. 15 08 19 14:56

      The enemies of democracy | speymouth

    315 to “The enemies of democracy”

    1. I cannot help but wonder what would happen if independence supporters joined the Scottish Unionist parties in large enough numbers to choose their leaders. How many members do they even have in Scotland?

    2. call me dave says:

      Jings! Another straw on the unionist camel’s back.

      Surely it must be at breaking point now?

      Ruth, Rennie and Richard (The 3-R’s)must do the math and concede.

      Not long now, win or lose.

    3. Proud Cybernat says:

      Sure you meant to write “NO SURRENDER!”

    4. handclapping says:

      If its called Murdo it can go on, go on, go on, however much it cant win a vote.

      And we have to pay for it!

    5. Wasn’t it R.B.Cunninghame Graham who said, ” It won’t be the English who will stop us gaining independence, it will be the Scots”. Fits them to a tee.

    6. Alabaman says:

      Hang on just a minute Stew.
      Let me check your figures with Edwina Currie !!!,
      You know, the lass who said among other untruths, “an independent Scotland would miss the money handout from the Barnet formula ” (not exactly word for word, but damed near it that makes no difference).

    7. Alabaman says:

      Stew,
      You said, LibDem voters want Scots to decide for themselves whither to stay hitched to the U.K. ::::
      Have you checked this out with Wullie Rennie ??, I recon that situation would send him straight into the loony bin.

    8. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      And furthermore, their anti-leadership denial of democracy is all done in the name of “democracy”.

      And they still think we don’t notice…?

    9. Alasdair Angus Macdonald says:

      When I turned the radio on this morning shortly after 7.00am, Good Morning Scotland was on and a very angry man, sounding seriously annoyed, was ranting. It turned out he was horrified by Mr Corbyn’s letter to other parties about collaborating to vote no confidence in the government and that this had referred to the fact that Labour would not oppose a second referendum on Scottish independence. The rant was about ‘betrayal of Scottish Labour’. At one stage, I thought I heard him use the word ‘we’, but I am not certain because the words were pouring out. His anger was being stoked by the interviewer, Gary Robertson, feeding him lines. When this ended, it turned out that the angry man was none other than ‘our Westminster Political Affairs correspondent, Nick Eardley’. Such anger seemed genuine. I thought that the BBC was supposed to report impartially!!

    10. galamcennalath says:

      The democratic case, and public opinion, is crystal clear.

      We just need to get on with it when the time is right, which will be soon.

      The detractors show themselves up for what they are, haters of democracy. They pretend to agree with the results of votes, but only those votes and results they agree with!

    11. manandboy says:

      The clock for Independence is ticking. Just wish it could go faster. Waiting is such an ordeal.

    12. galamcennalath says:

      Alabaman says:

      “an independent Scotland would miss the money handout from the Barnet formula ”

      A Tory / BritNat / Remain / wannabe-English woman said almost exactly those words to me recently. Where do you start when they come out with guff like that? Why don’t they functioning receptive enquiring minds like the rest of us!?

    13. galamcennalath says:

      Should have been Leave … woman, of course

    14. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Interesting, besides the Tories, the only other identified group who are strongly opposed to indyref2 are the Leavers. Seems the principle of “taking back control” only goes so far for them. As far as a neo-colonislist unitary British state but no further, that is.

      I wonder what the fabled Yes-Leavers of Scotland think about that. Looks like they also need to choose.

    15. manandboy says:

      Every single Unionist politician knows what is good for his or her career and, consequently, his or her income. Every decision is made on that basis.

      What’s good for Scotland doesn’t come into it.

    16. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 15:25,

      Whoops, that should be “neo-colonialist” of course.

      (Must check better and hurry less in future.)

    17. Corrado Mella says:

      What if we just stop listening to them?
      What if we just stop obeying to them?
      What if we just stop replying to them?
      What if we just stop?
      Just stop.
      Not a rebellion.
      Just walk away.
      We’re validating their position just by discussing it.
      The best way to invalidate the BritNazi Establishment is to disregard it.
      Talk to the hand.

    18. Robert Peffers says:

      NAW! Everyone knows there is no appetite for a second referendum in Scotland – and it must be true for Rooth the mooth says it, Boris says it, Richard, “Bobby”, whit’s his name says it, Wee Willie Wha? says it, the BBC says it, STV says it, Radio Jockland says it and yon new wifie frae the Libdums says it an the SMSM says it. Shairly they canna aa be wrang – could they?

    19. Thepnr says:

      O/T Kezia Dugdale tells the Scotsman that “controversial Scottish independence blogger” is appealing against the sheriffs decision in the defamation case.

      http://archive.fo/ZEbRs

    20. Brian Powell says:

      Of course, because it would be the end of those politicians and their supporters in the BBC and a myriad of newspapers.

    21. Bob Mack says:

      Democracy is one thing. Political viewpoints of Democracy are quite another.

      Brexit requires every penny of UK income flowing to the UK Treasury to survive the financial shock to come. That includes Scotland resources and cash as well.

      That is the real reason behind their reluctance to have another referendum in Scotland. They must keep us captive to survive.

    22. Republicofscotland says:

      Wow, that a really encouraging and revealing poll. It kind of shows that Leonard, Rennie, Davidson and Swinson are full of it.

      The mood is really swinging in favour of a second indy vote.

    23. Robert Peffers says:

      Stu says, , “Collectively, in fact, the tiny rump of Unionist MSPs elected via the Holyrood list system are to all intents and purposes the Scottish equivalent of the DUP”

      Last time I looked they were far from being a, “tiny rump”. Mair like a muckle big fat ear… … Oh! Sorry! I see what you mean now.

    24. Republicofscotland says:

      albaman @ galamcennalath.

      The Barnett Formula (As a boon for Scotland) has been myth busted today in the National.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17837412.barnett-formula-knew-dead-means-scotland/

    25. cynicalHighlander says:

      Republicofscotland

      The Archive for those non-subscribers

      http://archive.is/PtpuK

    26. Dr Jim says:

      The politicians problem is they’ve indoctrinated the English public to believe that they, the English subsidise Scotland when they’ve always known that to be a lie but it served their purpose of divide and conquer

      Now how do the English politicians get themselves out of the mess without revealing the truth that they must hold on to Scotland becuase we’re Effing rich in everything they need to sell and strategically Scotland is the most important geographic location defensively plus somewhere to park their nuclear toys that won’t kill English people if they go bang or England is attacked because they’re not there

      When you brainwash a people you better be prepared for the time you need to reverse that position, so go on England tell your people you’ve been doing big fibs the whole of their lives and that the Jockys are actually not the spongers you made them out to be

      Bet they don’t though, vote loser that one

    27. katherine hamilton says:

      Quite the range of support for Holyrood being the legitimate place for such a decision. I went to the link towards the end of the piece about the losers holding even their own parties in contempt.
      The article is from 2016. Worth a look as it highlights just how unwanted these people are!

      The extent of their defeats is often breathtaking. Check out Tompkins, for example.

      This a nice companion piece to the the REV’s current ideas re a Wings party contesting the regional seats at Holyrood in 2021.
      They are who we would be after, not anything to do with the SNP. When you read the names, now we know them well, it makes the idea almost an imperative.

      Let’s ditch as many as we can. I didn’t comment on the idea itself. The beauty and simplicity almost spoke for itself.

    28. Jack Murphy says:

      Clicking on the top graph in this Wing’s article is definitely an eye-opener. Recommended.

    29. galamcennalath says:

      Two groups oppose Scottish democracy …

      i) Scottish BritNats who believe in a Union of their mythical ‘Britain’. They are deluded.

      ii) Greater England Nationalists who believe it is their deity bestowed right to rule over all lands adjacent to England. Imperialists who want to maintain their last colonial prizes.

      Normal English Nationalists are the ones who do put England first but don’t care if Scotland and NI choose different paths. They appear willing to accept the democratic process. They also only seem to ask that their democratic right to achieve EU Leave is honoured. Fair enough.

    30. Ahundredthidiot says:

      I reckon this comes with a 2% margin for error….

    31. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Rev….no rush…but would be nice to see if there has been a rise in traffic on the site in light of recent events?

    32. Clapper57 says:

      I’m thinking of writing a book.

      Called ‘ Don’t Know’.

      Not sure if it will sell that well but assume that a percentage of people will be able to relate to it.

    33. Artyhetty says:

      Correct, the Britnat MSP’s are certainly akin to the DUP. They would see Holyrood closed down without a doubt. They surely can’t want their very lucrative jobs with huge wages though for much longer, or do they know something we don’t.

      Re;Scott@3,45

      O/T

      Can you archive links to Britnat media please or you can find these articles elswhere, for example, on oil etc, go to oilandgaspeople.com

      Go to their ‘news’ articles it’s all there, and share via them on twitter. Scotland is awash (!) with oil, and other resources, so perhaps rUK should play nice because post indy, they might have to rely on Scotland to keep the lights on.

    34. Jim Thomson says:

      @Ahundredthidiot 4:43pm

      If you do twitter, Stuart posted a wee “bandwidth” update a few days ago here https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1160854724788269057

    35. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Jim Thomson

      thanks, I dont do twitter (its a lack of self trust more than snobbery!), but just checked and almost said Holy Shit out loud.

      Not counting any chickens, but feels like we might be on our way

    36. Clootie says:

      Rev

      How did you manage to beat all those “investigative journalists” that strive to give Scots a balanced and impartial assessment of political polls. I think it very unfair to issue such detailed work to the public – Are you trying to make them look bad?

      Have you forgotten the World acclaim the BBC has acquired for fair and balanced reporting.

      It is not as if this Nation is not represented fairly in the media. It is not their fault that the public need murders to be covered several times. That we thrive on being told how shit we are. That we demand to know about events in England instead of at home. The media are only giving us what they know we want.

    37. Cormag Rangvald says:

      I often wonder to myself, if it is a possible for Scotland to seek the support of a) the UN and b) The European Court of Human Rights; To overturn the need for Westminster to ‘agree’ a referendum. Whilst I’m sure these allies/institutions won’t want to get involved in an ‘internal’ matter, surely, in order to uphold the spirit of article 1 of the UN Charter. Westminster must relinquish that control. I’m no constitutional lawyer but even a layman’s reading of the Charter seems to make that quite clear. Westminster has already agreed ‘The Claim of Right’ and acknowledges that the people of Scotland are sovereign [in Scotland]. Surely a refusal to allow us self-determination by way of a referendum breaches the UN Charter AND the Claim of Right?

    38. Vestas says:

      @Rev. Stuart Campbell

      Somewhat OT but you know what would be a real vote-winner (if of course you decide to go that way)?

      Limit list MSPs to a maximum of two terms. If they can’t get elected to a constituency seat within 10 years then they’re clearly not entitled to sit in Holyrood.

      Its a win-win : clearly more democratic & you get the dross like Murdo/Annie gone and whining/working for some unionist who has to pay their salary. Admittedly that’d be a supermarket for one of them but meh….

      Seriously if you end up having to do this bloody stupid thing (due to the Murrells “unique” position) then you may as well get a quid pro quo which benefits Scotland regardless of an indy vote. A limit on the number of terms a list MSP could serve without being elected to a constituency would be an interesting change to Scots politics.

      Sorry, should probably have said that in last thread

    39. Capella says:

      Can we crowd source the manifesto?

    40. Ryan Mc says:

      I saw Anas Sarwar today in German Doner Kebab in Glasgow, asked him if he is backing independence yet (lol). He chuckled and said “not yet”. Is this a sign the tides are turning?

      Not “yet”.

    41. Vestas says:

      @ Capella 5:37 pm :

      “Can we crowd source the manifesto?”

      That’d be interesting – and probably very bloody on (un)social media.

      No reason not to do it though 🙂

    42. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Clootie at 5.20

      Exactly. Anybody that goes onto BBC’s online Scottish news gets murders,rapes,bankruptcies,more murders,drug drug drugs.
      STV news is now as bad as or worse than BBC news.
      Panic is setting in

    43. Clootie says:

      In my view the major problem within the SNP at present is not the quality and efforts of the MSPs, MPs and MEPs. It is the unelected clique who run HQ. The unelected spouses. The unelected partners. The little pressure groups who have moved in.

      We have great quality elected representatives. We need the influence of the unelected to be curtailed. We have a major problem when you need to know who to call rather than use the system.

      …just my opinion.

    44. call me dave says:

      No, Jeremy Corbyn didn’t make a strategic mistake with his offer to stop No Deal

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/

    45. Ruglonian says:

      O/T
      *Wings stall info*

      Hey folks,
      The Wings stall will be in attendance at the Aberdeen rally this coming Saturday (17/8).

      As far as we know it just now, following the guidance put out by AUOB, we will be in amongst all the other stalls at “the far side of Castlegate nearest the Salvation Army building”.
      You’ll spot us a mile away though with our awesome banners!

      As you all know we aren’t shy in asking folk to roll up their sleeves – the Friends Of Wings stall is a success because everyone pitches in and makes it so.
      If you’re about before the march then come and help us set up, or get in amongst it once the march is over!
      Mr Ronnie Anderson will be holding court as usual, dishing out free abuse if that’s your thing 😉

      There’s a group of us travelling up from Ayrshire and the all over the Central Belt so we expect to see all you NorthEasters out in force to put on a good show for us!!

      If anyone wants to formally register themselves as a volunteer for Aberdeen, or any upcoming events, then leave a message for me on O/T.
      See you Saturday 🙂

    46. Sinky says:

      Clootie. The SNP is very democratic and it is up to the 125,000 members to influence the direction of the party. If you or others are not happy then get involved in your local branch and get out and knock on doors.

      All I will say on HQ and Scots Gov advisers is that the fall out with Jim McColl would not happen under Alex Salmond’s watch.

    47. Welsh Sion says:

      Lib Dems and BBC alleging that the Party is “the “biggest and strongest Remain party in this country”.

      Shurely shome mishtake?

    48. geeo says:

      Crushing blow to Scottish independence announced on STV news : 30 years of oil, 350 million for sure, but potentially 3 Billion barrels from oil field discovered in 1981 !!!

      Mariner A.

    49. Muscleguy says:

      I think the real reason why Swinson won’t back Corbyn’s plan is it involves a General Election and those who crunched the numbers from that poll showed she would lose her seat. Turkeys don’t vote for Xmas and Swinson will doubtless do ANYTHING to hang on by her fingernails including special, special pleading as to why she has to stay on as an MP even if Scotland declared UDI effective tomorrow.

    50. Republicofscotland says:

      O/T.

      The ultra unionist STV news again for the umpteen time led with the ferries/Ferguson shipyard/Jim McColl/Scottish government story.

      Jim M Coll “I’m not taking ANY responsibility for the overun on the ferries. No SG person to counter McColl’s claims on STV news.

      They should be renamed ASTV as in Anti-

    51. Republicofscotland says:

      “Clapper57 says:
      15 August, 2019 at 4:44 pm
      I’m thinking of writing a book.

      Called ‘ Don’t Know’.

      Not sure if it will sell that well but assume that a percentage of people will be able to relate to it.”

      Relate to it, I don’t know. ?

    52. Cactus says:

      Yes, this latest poll with FULL results speaks for itself…

      Howsabout the enemies of equality?

      Here’s Oliver’s take on it:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDR_5kUlXX4

      2 sleeps to go

    53. Muscleguy says:

      I think David Icke or Uri Geller would make a better leader than Swinson. Her voting record shows she’s a closet Tory and her election pretty much confirms: vote LibDem get or facilitate Tories.

    54. Clapper57 says:

      @ Republicofscotland @ 6.28pm

      Lol…good one.

    55. Muscleguy says:

      I will further opine that the reason Corbyn didn’t write to the Monster Raving Loony, sorry Chang UK, sorry XXXXXX because he couldn’t be sure what party name they would be using and didn’t want to embarrass them.

    56. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT seems that England and Wales have a wee drug problem – maybe even worse than Dundee.

      Just back from a lovely day out touring Dunoon ,Kilmun, Carrick Castle and down the lochside.

    57. Hamish100 says:

      If we put this poll and the one the BBC refused to discuss (because it was only one poll) would they not have to discuss both!!

    58. Dorothy Devine says:

      Good heavens ! The English exam results are the lowest since Noah was a boy!

      Who would have thunk it?!

      I have no idea who thinks that there should be year on year improvement – using that reasoning they should all be Einstein clones in a decade

    59. Clootie says:

      Sinky – I’ve got the T-shirt thank you!
      Read my post again! I know how it is supposed to work. I know how it is working.
      I know they are our best bet but don’t ignore the current situation.

    60. Clootie says:

      BBC

      The TOP story in Scotland today is that a football manager used some harsh words with players who lost a 3 goal lead in the World Cup.
      Don’t worry it will be repeated again at 9 and 10:30.

      Really! Top story.

    61. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Vestas @ 17:33:

      Limit list MSPs to a maximum of two terms.

      Oh jeez, here we go again. Is this the best people can think of to fix a patently absurd system? One that no-one really understands?

      It needs to be reformed hook-line-and-sinker, not fiddled-with on the far fringes.

      We should use STV, like the local elections (so the same system throughout) and like Ireland. We are so backward compared to them (in many ways!) it’s positively painful.

    62. george wood says:

      @Vestas 5.33

      Limiting MSPs to two terms on the List is not a good idea.

      You seem to have forgotten, or maybe you are too young to remember, that the SNP used to have to rely on List seats to get into Holyrood.

      If your suggestion had been applied from the start in 1999, then such people as Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Neil, Kenny McAskill, Fiona Hyslop, Bruce Crawford, Tricia Warwick, Richard Lochhead & Christine Graham would not have been allowed to stand in 2007.

    63. cynicalHighlander says:

      OT: Anyone else finding problems with archive.is or is it just me?

    64. call me dave says:

      @cynicalHighlander

      I’ve found over the last day or two that when you paste in the link to be archived another link from a previous archived link takes over.
      I find by moving my cursor away a wee bit my pasted link then appears in the box and I then carry on from there.

      This might be what’s happening. ?? If not sorry. 🙂

    65. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      View of the Dug:

      Jo Swinson’s shiny ego

      “Jeremy’s plan has however already been shot down in flames by Jo Swinson. The only thing that remain voting Middle England dislikes more than Brexit is the idea of Jeremy Corbyn in Downing Street.”

      “The reason for the refusal is twofold. Firstly it’s because Jo has her eye on Tory – Lib Dem marginal seats in the snap General Election…”

      “Secondly it’s because Jo knows that the price of a temporary Corbyn administration which also requires the backing of the SNP is another Scottish independence referendum, which buggers her career. You can’t be a party leader in Westminster when you represent a seat in a country that’s independent of the UK.”

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/08/15/jo-swinsons-shiny-ego/

    66. Tam the Bam. says:

      Clootie @ 6-59pm

      I know….saw that….tells you all you need to know about Pacific Quays priorities!

    67. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Drug deaths in England and Wales highest ever recorded, according to BBC radio.

      Not a word of condemnation regarding health Secretary or PM from any politicians or media.

      Why different in Scotland?

      We should be told.

    68. Cactus says:

      THIS SATURDAY

      Indy March Aberdeen ’19:
      https://howmanydaystill.com/its/indy-march-aberdeen-19

      We’re a comin’ for ye Aberdeen

    69. Mac says:

      This is very old… But it’s very relevant today.

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11311365/How-the-Union-was-almost-lost-The-inside-story-of-the-Scottish-independence-campaigns-last-100-days.html

      If you have not read it, read it and feel good about what’s to come. Every YES supporter should read it.

    70. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert J. Sutherland at 7:06 pm

      You typed,
      “We should use STV, like the local elections (so the same system throughout) and like Ireland. We are so backward compared to them (in many ways!) it’s positively painful.”

      You may have missed this exchange on an older page…

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/running-the-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-2479954

      Read forward but you can scroll back to get context.

    71. David says:

      Now that Corbyn has made it clear he wants to lead a caretaker gov and call an election and while thinking Indy not a good idea but will not oppose a request .
      And the FM has agreed to talk .Can we have no more Labour bashing on this site .
      Or are you just playing Indy games .
      Because you SNP members whatever happens are going to now have to force the SNP leadership to actually Focus on passing the necessary legislation Maybe ask why they have done nothing for years on that .Or make the conference a real one by forcing an Indy debate and timetable and a firm commitment to the 2nd half of next year .Not so much talk of that now .But that would mean making it a real conference where decisions are taken not a rally .
      And the shipyard Jim McColl is the one supplying STV with the stories Don’t hear anyone saying GMB are backing the Gov plan and over 100 workers have left .

    72. Tam the Bam. says:

      Jason Smoothpiece @ 7-42pm

      See my post on previous thread ‘The Big Idea’ Jason.
      Yet another Beeb editorial spin at variance with Pacific Quays take on the Hoyrood Gov.

      Impartial?…..aye and I’m Napoleon!

    73. Tam the Bam. says:

      Jason…’The Big Idea’ post @ 2-04pm….sorry for omitting.

    74. cynicalHighlander says:

      @call me dave

      Error: Network error. is what get on Herald and its sister The National

    75. Dr Jim says:

      As if we don’t have enough to bear in Scotland, there’s now even more oil, in fact probably enough to last until the end of time as we know it Jim…

      But the BBC is now telling us we don’t want it, oh no, because friends of the earth say it’s bad and the BBC (for the first time ever in their existence) agrees with them….who knew eh?

      Plus, and there is a plus, the world apparently is watching Scotland because we’re leading the world on climate change science with projects around Scotland checking the soil and designing cows that can produce 50% less methane

      Dear God where and when will this nightmare of better government and better country than England end

      Yet still planet Yoon claims we’ll have turbo charged austerity and Jo Swinson wants to be Prime Minister, well not without a constituency seat in England she wont because Scotland will be Independent and that’ll be the end of her Yaay!

      Ferries, ferries you say, watch this space for something a wee bit more than ferries, that shipyard’s staying open because we’re about to need it for more than ferries

    76. Chris Kilby says:

      The Scottish equivalent of the DUP is right: the party that likes to say “NO!”

    77. Robert Peffers says:

      O/T:

      Scotland at 7 off down a side-track, as is Gordon Ross. Apparently there has been a pair of companies registered as private companies in Scotland. Both with titles including the words Scottish Labour.

      Thing is that registering as a PLC, (private limited companies), is not the same thing as registering as Political Parties.

      However it is strange as to why register as a company called Scottish Labour PLC? I smell rats for
      some strange reason.

    78. call me dave says:

      I might be wrong but I think the ref don’t like black faces…two yellows and off! 10 men and a goal down.

      Well Aberdeen lasted about 20mins…and I don’t really don’t want to watch the Queen’s eleven.

      Thinks! … 🙁 ‘Deadwood’ box set Series 2 seems good diversion.

      PS:
      I never knew there was so much oral sex in the wild west. 🙂

    79. Clapper57 says:

      @ David @ 7.51pm

      “Can we have no more Labour bashing on this site “.

      Hi David..how you doin…..

      Well that’s a big ask.Your above comment.

      Also your suggestion is a two way street…one could also ask Labour peeps not to continue “bashing” the SNP on their sites…but we all know it will not happen. I am afraid we are way beyond that but certainly Brexit and the possibility of a No Deal have temporarily caused a cease fire on partisan politics……for some but not so much for others such as Lib Dems….though if I am honest your post is not very conducive to persuading others to be less critical of Labour …language and tone is everything. If you want to wave the white flag of peace I think you will need to perhaps measure your comments and the words you use.

      Also just so you know..not being sarcastic BTW..but not everyone on this site are SNP supporters..people on here will tell you that the YES movement is not all about the SNP.

      Not wishing an argument with you…just debate and friendly advice that when you comment on here… if you appear to ask one thing of the peeps who regularly post on here….while simultaneously do the very thing you ask them not to do then it does come over as a wee bit hypocritical…sorry to use that word but if you no longer would like peeps on here to continue Labour bashing while you yourself are being derogatory towards the SNP then that seems a wee bit unfair.

      Just so you know there is a reason we ” bash” Labour ….I am sure many others on here would be only to happy to elaborate on that…good try though but afraid IMO you have missed your target.

      Have a good evening David

    80. CameronB Brodie says:

      What a peach of a description, “the Scottish equivalent of the DUP”. The yoons have adopted a stoical stance in the face of public morality and social progress. I think that calls for some evolutionary psychology, frankly. 🙂

      Injustice, inequality and Evolutionary Psychology
      https://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucbtdag/bioethics/writings/ineqpoli.html

    81. Clapper57 says:

      @ Mac @ 7.44pm

      Hi Mac..glad you are still posting. Enjoy your contributions on here which you articulate very well.

      Keep posting young man.

    82. CameronB Brodie says:

      See that Prof. Gerry Hassan. The man is somewhat intellectually limited, IMHO. He’s also a rigid thinker.

      The Evolutionary Basis of Rigidity: Locks in Cells, Minds, and Society
      https://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol12/iss2/art36/

    83. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Dr Jim says

      “that shipyard’s staying open because we’re about to need it for more than ferries”

      Really big Tug-boats, so we can sail away from England with the SNP?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaUGqvaPd8E

    84. CameronB Brodie says:

      Is @George Kerevan part of the woke-set of gradual-ists and science denies. Who does he think he is, the fekin’ entitled?

    85. twathater says:

      Posted this at end of last post but wanted to hear views

      twathater says:
      15 August, 2019 at 5:46 pm

      Re Corbyn alliance with the SNP to stop no deal brexshit, I have read numerous comments on here and lots of other places that Nicola is only trying to protect decent English people from their own folly , has it not occurred to people that 17.4 million people voted for brexshit how many of them are decent English people or are they all raving xenophobes and racists
      Surely it is time for Nicola to say enough is enough I and we have done our best to convince people that brexshit is total madness , to ally her and us with an openly supporter of brexshit which Corbyn is only delays and confuses the issue even more

      We have had 80+years of liebours lies and ruinous hypocrisy the most recent better together and THE VOW why would we believe ANYTHING they say now , IMO tell corbyn and his fellow imperialists to F/O because no matter what we do to save the ( decent ??) English people from their imbecilic choices of government THEY AFTER ALL VOTED THEM IN AND THEY CONTINUE TO DO SO
      We have complained continuously that no matter who we vote for we ALWAYS get the govt england imposes on us , so we now have the govt we voted for fighting to save the politicians we didn’t vote for , ma heids burstin

      Stu I so wish your party was available to vote for now

    86. CameronB Brodie says:

      sorry ….science deniers.

    87. Dr Jim says:

      I will probably bash the Labour party till the end of time or until they stop being the Tory party’s little helpers, whichever comes first

      But I reckon I’ll die before any of that ever happens

    88. Col.Blimp IV says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      15 August, 2019 at 9:33 pm

      “sorry ….science deniers.”

      The higher the denier, the thicker the fabric. Deniers lower than 20 are referred to as sheer tights, which are made of fine threads and offer light leg coverage.

      Quite apt I suppose, since they are dressing up – dressing up as women – as science.

    89. David says:

      Thanks for your comment clapper
      Doing fine thanks Rangers won 3 1 haha
      What I did was tongue in cheek .
      Corbyns plan is all the talk now all kinds of abuse will be thrown by the Tories .Its already started .
      I think Nicola and Ian Blackford knew this was coming .
      Jo Swinson absolute car crash interview on Ch 4 news .
      I still think Westminster and Holyrood should not have shut for a long recess.
      SNP Green bashing read Kevin Makenna in the National and Lesley Riddoch hit back today .
      Mind you all of it was before todays fun haha

    90. Dr Jim says:

      Massive shock as *journalists* pretend they just found out Jo Swinson is a Tory

    91. David says:

      Twathater
      I voted remain but about a million Scots voted leave at the EU ref.

    92. Welsh Sion says:

      Draft version – with acknowledgements. (Please feel free to amend – I’m a complete amateur when it comes to writing in Scots.)

      Joanne Swinson – you’re nae my jo

      Joanne Swinson – you’re nae my jo.
      When we were first acquent,
      You were ain young Liberal,
      Wi’ aw’ your principles spent.
      An’ now you’re aulder, Jo,
      Wi’ newer principles, mich like the snaw;
      Which when comes the spring, they doth thaw.
      Joanne Swinson – you’re nae my jo.

      Joanne Swinson – you’re nae my jo.
      We’d never work thegither;
      And manys a cantie day, Jo,
      We had wi’oot ane anither:
      Now I maun to gae my way, Jo;
      Free o’ you – to indy, I maun go,
      An’ be rid of better thegither.
      Joanne Swinson – you’re nae my jo.

    93. Clapper57 says:

      @ David @ 9.59pm

      Hi David…I am confused.com

      Not sure how far your tongue is in your cheek Lol

      Rangers ….won….AAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDD Lol

    94. kapelmeister says:

      A would be caretaker PM? But Jez the Janitor has upset the prefect Snooty Swinson. Meanwhile school clown BoJo and school bully Dom Cummings are proceeding with their dastardly plans.

      And they’re not even back from their holidays yet.

      Westminster’s far worse than Grange Hill ever was.

    95. Brian Powell says:

      For everybody going on about Corbyn and Swinson, the Tory and Brexit vote in polls swamps the other parties.

    96. CameronB Brodie says:

      Col.Blimp IV 🙂
      Two for a pound. 😉

      Four for a pound your face flannels, three for a pound your tea towels!
      Four for a pound your face flannels, three for a pound your tea towels!

      I hear a gang fight on a human factory farm
      Are they howling out, or doing somebody harm?
      On a catwalk jungle, somebody grabbed my arm
      A voice spoke so cold it matched the weapon in her palm

      This is England
      This knife of Sheffield steel
      This is England
      This is how we feel

      Time on his hands the freezing mohawk strolls
      He won’t go for the carrots
      Been beaten by the pole
      Some sunny day confronted by his soul
      His eye will see how fast you can grow old

      This is England
      That I’m supposed to die for
      This is England
      Never gonna cry no more

      This is England
      That I’m supposed to die for
      This is England
      Never gonna cry no more

      This is England
      We can chain you to the rail
      This is England
      We can kill you in a jail

      Hey, British boots go kick Bengali in the head
      Police sit watching
      The newspapers being read
      All deaf to protests
      And after the attacker fled
      Out came the batons and
      The biggest one then said

      This is England
      The land of illegal dances
      This is England
      Land of one thousand stances
      This is England
      This knife of Sheffield steel
      This is England
      This is how we feel
      This is England
      This is England

      The Clash – This is England
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4YtR9SsY2Q

    97. Colin Alexander says:

      The Scottish Radicals – two hundred years ago.

      The 19th Century yins, no the current YES movement.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/myths_legends/scotland/strathclyde/article_5.shtml

      “There existed in Scotland a covert group called the Committee for Organising a Provisional government, which consisted of committed radicals, elected by their respective unions, who would assume responsibility of organising the new social structure of Scotland in the aftermath of a successful rising. However, it seems clear in retrospect that the committee had also been infiltrated by government spies, who were rife at the time, being one of the government’s most important defences against underground radical activities”.

      There you go, the SNP, 77th Brigade and MI5 equivalents were around in other forms even then.

      See also:

      https://www.electricscotland.com/history/glasgow/anec167.htm

    98. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Dorothy Devine at 6.40

      Och,Dorothy.You should have visited us at the Forward Shop at 186 Argyll Street in Dunoon.Love Kilmun.Lived there for 10 years.

    99. stu mac says:

      @Republicofscotland says:
      15 August, 2019 at 3:56 pm

      The Barnett Formula (As a boon for Scotland) has been myth busted today in the National.
      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17837412.barnett-formula-knew-dead-means-scotland/

      Yes that’s true. But it also points out at the end that the new tax powers Scotland have been given also represent a trap which the SNP government must be careful not to fall into. It’s the more important part of the article, as although we didn’t have the depth of understanding of the author, we all knew the truth about Barnett. Many even in the SNP I believe don’t realise the dangers in the new ways in which Scotland is financed.

    100. Golfnut says:

      I think DUP describes them to a tee. Duplicitous Unionist Parasites, I was going to say politicians, but parasites is probably more accurate.

    101. Col.Blimp IV says:

      CameronB Brodie

      Not as green or pleasant as the Unionists imagine it to be.

    102. Effijy says:

      Drug Deaths in England have doubled and are accelerating faster
      than at any time in history but no need for UK Media to make the same
      Fuss as they did with Scotland”a figures.

      The number of English A Grade Exam passes are the worst in a decade
      But no need for UK Media to make the same level of disaster as they did
      When our pupils pass successes dropped by only 2%.

      The acceleration of decline in England had come under Tory rule!

    103. Robert Peffers says:

      @Republicofscotland says:15 August, 2019 at 3:56 pm

      ” … The Barnett Formula (As a boon for Scotland) has been myth busted today in the National.”

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17837412.barnett-formula-knew-dead-means-scotland/

      The Barnett Formula was busted right from its instigation just by understanding what the formula was meant to do under devolution and it isn’t hard to understand.

      When Westminster devolved any particular function to any of the devolved administrations what it did was to remove a function previously handled by a Westminster Ministry. However Westminster did not devolve the same numbers or the same functions to the three devolved administrations.

      So when Westminster moved, (devolved), a function to an administration from a Westminster ministry they also had to take from the Westminster Ministry the money to run the devolved function. How else could a devolved administration fund their new function when they had no tax raising powers?

      So Westminster also had to devolve from the Westminster ministry the funds to run the devolved function and that was what Barnett’s Formula was meant to do.

      It is also utter lies, or pig ignorance, to claim it was English Taxpayer’s money – because all UK people, (excepting the tax dodgers), are taxed on the same tax laws. It is obviously United Kingdom tax payers money and the calculation is obviously on a per capita basis.

      i.e. the sum is the per capita tax paid in by the individual countries minus what ever was the per capita sum returned to each individual country.

      Not only that but the truth also shoots down that other load of rubbish about the Scots getting a higher per capita sum than everyone else. The per capita sum, (the block grant), obviously depends upon the different devolved functions each devolved administration has and in fact N.I has the highest per capita funding and the greatest devolved functions.

      So N.I. has the highest per capita funding – not Scotland. Scotland cones next with Wales next with Wales having the least devolved functions.

      Warning- don’t even think about calculating the English per capita funding – (the mental health services are hard enough pushed as it is, so don’t add to them).

      England gets NO funding whatsoever because England is treated for funding as the United Kingdom and is directly from the Westminster a.k.a The United Kingdom ministries.

      So, there you go – the answers to all the unionists, including ministers of state, who either don’t know the above facts or who believe their own propaganda.

    104. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 19:47,

      Thanks for that, I must have left the thread before it got so far. (Though we have been here before, of course.)

      As things stand at the moment it would enable all the partisans (BritNat “bitter-enders” on the one hand and indy supporters of all stripes on the other) to each coalesce under their majority-supported champions, while allowing different voters to get there in their own preferred ways without compromise. I like that. In effect each contest is a kind of live electoral poll that sifts out those who can command widest support, shows how they got there, and importantly has nothing whatever to do with party lists and party-privileged dummies.

      I guess no system is perfect, but there’s only one that’s worse than 2-vote AMS. (The 18th-century one clung on to by WM, of course.) My reaction here though was just to express some disappointment that so many (3 in the most recent couple of threads) apparently haven’t moved on beyond a shallow bodge of a complete crock.

    105. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      This Opinium organisation failed to make grammatical sense…

      “If there is a vote of no confidence in the government, 40% think Johnson
      should refuse to resign and call a general election for after October 31st”

      Dreadfully vague for an outfit that charges for asking precise questions of 2,000+ people.

      That sentence is poorly phrased. Does it mean “40% think Johnson should refuse to call a general election?” I think I know what they meant, but cannot guarantee their point.

      That part of Opinium effort is feckless and useless.

    106. Thepnr says:

      There’s a turn up for the book from the BBC.

      The Papers

      Newspaper headlines: Tory rebels ‘side with Corbyn’s bid to topple PM’

      http://archive.fo/NicVE

    107. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Al-Stuart @ 23:36,

      Strictly, all it needed was a teensy comma after “resign”, no…? =grin=

    108. Clootie says:

      The Barnett formula

      If you study all the “Emergency spending” that has taken place in England for many decades itt has always found a home under a variety of legislative buckets. The key is that the majority do not have Barnett consequential.

      Are they classed as National Emergencies?

      Regardless of any formula applied a few key facts must be remembered.
      a) England spends whatever it needs to spend.
      b) England decides what headline figure achieves application of the formula
      c) Scotland gets an allocation for what England spent the previous year.

      Who decides the major projects that have no Barnett consequentialis. Why has no journalist written an article on it. I would be interested if anyone can link to one.

    109. Thepnr says:

      Jo Swinson backtracks and sends Corbyn a letter.

      http://archive.fo/jLb4M

    110. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Tam the Bam

      See what you are saying and you are right.

      Almost unbelievable.

    111. Tam the Bam. says:

      thi
      s site has degenerated into an echo chamber for nutballs.If it doesn’t stop…I’m out.

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tam the Bam
      Generating a positive PR for a regional WOS party, that has reach outside the Yes movement, might be near impossible but would that matter? (note – I don’t know much about PR) It could, indeed, be harmful to the cause. I don’t think that’s sufficient reason not to consider the option of a regional party though, which is where I think you are leaning towards. Hopefully we won’t need one but it would be good to have thought about it, in case we do need one, I’d have thought.

      I hope I’ve understood you correctly.

    113. Ken500 says:

      A Party of a load of mavericks will not help. People are just as likely not to vote for them. They could all start arguing. The greens are at it already. They are all starting arguing. The Greens have 1000 members. No one will vote for the. No wonder. Just another distraction.

      Campaign to change the voting system. First preference votes go in the bin to let 3rd rare losers win. It is just a joke. The electorate does not understand it. Neither does anyone else. A nonsense. One person, one vote. Evans and the unionists changed the voting system illegally. The Council election are the same.

      With the demographic changes and the increase in support for SNP/Independence. The unionist vote is falling. The SNP are doing a good job in the economy and going for Independence. Another Indy/Ref which can be won. Do not distract or divert from it. The unionists are at it already. Trying to use it. When a united front is needed.

    114. Ken500 says:

      The article on the Barnett Formula leaves out many facts. Scotland budget is controlled by Westminster. Total mismanagement and mis spending. Costs Scotland £Billions. High Tory taxes on the Oil sector when the price had fallen cost Scotland £4Billion a year. A loss of 120,000 jobs, the same as unemployment. Scotland could have had full employment.

      Scotland has to pay for debts not borrowed or spent in Scotland. MUP will save. Scotland can borrow very little to boost the economy. Low growth. Scotland loses from tax evasion. Scotland has to pay more for Defence and Trident. Total of £20Billion which could be saved or better spent. Westminster total mismanagement of Oil, fishing and farming industry.

      Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Hinkley Point and HS2 a total waste of money. London Crossrail is totally over budget. £Billions.

      Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

    115. Iain 2 says:

      O/t It is an obvious thing that among the first actions of an independant Scottish parliment is voting reform. We must get rid of the current failed system.

    116. manandboy says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/15/dominic-cummings-blog-political-values

      Jonathan Heawood, on Dominic Cummings, says:

      “He thinks the political establishment is full of people who want to be something rather than do something”.

      Put some names to that, like David Mundell or Ruth Davidson perhaps, and the truth of the statement immediately starts to appear.

    117. manandboy says:

      Another descriptor of UK politics, is that while lip service is paid to the need for consensus, little is then actually done to achieve it. In fact, quite the contrary. Mind you, with this Tory government, which is all posh and very little brain, and absolutely no integrity or sensitivity, the loss of public cohesion is not difficult to achieve.
      Suffice to say, the UK is now divided as never before.

    118. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      R4 now

      Jo Swineson denying U Turn on Corbyn plan for emergency Government

      Sarah Smith interviewing

      Full On Irritable Vowel Syndrome Session!!

    119. Sinky says:

      Lib Dems are fourth party at Westminster and fifth force at Holywood. It’s time broadcasters reflected reality.

      Reality doesn’t apply to Tory Mp Stephen Kerry who writing in the Hootsman on broadband roll out has the brass neck to say put constitutional games away while ignoring fact that it is a reserved matter which the SNP is ameliorating.

    120. Robert Peffers says:

      @twathater says: 15 August, 2019 at 9:33 pm:

      ” … Re Corbyn alliance with the SNP to stop no deal brexshit,

      All that comment shows is that you have not been paying attention. It has been SNP policy for decades to work with Labour to oppose the Tories but not as you seem to think. It has never been suggested there would ever be aq formal coalition with the Labour Party.

      Only that the SNP would support certain Labour moves against the Tory government – no agreements to support Labour as part of a United Kingdom government.

      In the first place, and going by Westminster parliamentary rules, it couldn’t happen because of EVEL. All that has ever been suggested is that the SNP Westminster faction would support certain Labour moves against the Tories. Really speaking there is no need to even make that news for it is very obvious.

      We could expect the BBC and the rest of the MSM to attempt to make an SNP BAAAD story out of it but not real indy supporters. Why the hell would the Westminster SNP faction not support, for example, a Labour Party vote of No Confidence in either the Prime Minister or the current Tory government?

      Remember that the only person/party that can do so is the official opposition party and thus its leader and that is Corbyn and Labour.

    121. Dorothy Devine says:

      DavMcEwanHill, we were there because my husbands granny and grandad had a big hoose in Dhailling Road and he used to be sent there during the summer holidays , There he helped old Sandy with the boats and fishing parties and his cousins came up from the south to enjoy holidays with granny and grandad.

      The cousins wanted to put a commemorative bench on the esplanade , we are now all of such an age that one of the cousins thought we’d better get it done before we kicked the bucket ,

      As we drove through the town I was looking out for the YES shop but obviously I missed it , maybe you felt the vibes?? I was sending good thoughts!

    122. carjamtic says:

      WoS : Comparisons to Nigel Farage, right wing, hmmm

      Either there is a miscommunication issue here or a failure of comprehension.

      On the face of it looks like the drawbridges have been drawn up and proclamations issued, but in the interest of commonality and at the risk as been seen as lecturing (this is not a Ted Talk, Father Ted maybe) lets try a different approach to communicating,

      The art of listening, people can come across as know it all bastards, ears shut not listening and not being even aware of their own ignorance or any lack of humility.

      But if they did listen, they might see there’s a micro-correction that they need to make in one of the peripheral elements of their honestly held beliefs.

      It will be a little painful, a little sacrifice needs to be made, we do it in all other aspects of our lives why not here, I suppose it depends where you are, if your paddling away in the shallows or swimming out there in shark infested waters, indeed if you are a man or bag of sand.

    123. orri says:

      I think the calling of a VoNC can be by anyone but the rules are that the motion can’t be ignored and must actually put to the HoC if by the Leader of the Opposition otherwise it can be ignored. Basically the control of business can be used to prevent a VoNC so any party or MP has a chance at calling one.

      However that’s not to say Corbyn himself couldn’t be overruled if over 1/2 the opposition MPs elect an alternative official spokesman.

    124. admiral says:

      Effijy says:
      15 August, 2019 at 11:03 pm
      Drug Deaths in England have doubled and are accelerating faster
      than at any time in history but no need for UK Media to make the same
      Fuss as they did with Scotland”a figures.
      The number of English A Grade Exam passes are the worst in a decade

      Has no-one asked Wailing Willie, Ranting Richard and Rabid Ruth (aka the Three Stooges) to comment?

      Who’d have thunk it, eh?

      Well, what about this then? surely!
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-49336998

    125. McBoxheid says:

      It would be useful to know the numbers involved in the first graph. The overall numbers are presented in the second lot of figures are presented as a table and gives numbers. We have 73% UK voters, 76% Remain, 75% Leave, 85% tory, 71% Labour, 86% SNP, 80% Libdem, 80% People in Scotland in the first, who voted as a %age but don’t know the numbers attributed to each column. It would be nice to see a second graph with party, remain/leave, etc numbers and percentages for Scotland only voters.

    126. orri says:

      The obvious disparity is that both the No campaign and Leave have the absurd idea that they can control the flow of propaganda.

      In the No case they leant heavily on the idea of Scotland being a burden on the UK rather than it being a mutually beneficial thing.

    127. Hamish100 says:

      Admiral,
      Ruth Davidson?
      Who is she again?
      Gone into hiding?

    128. Tartanpigsy says:

      Great figures, and shows we need to get all our ducks in a row as they say, ie prepare ourselves for indyref2.
      To that end I’m organising a shipmeng of Pro Yes merchandise for Yes groups use during a campaign.
      https://www.gofundme.com/the-return-of-10000-flags-for-yes

    129. Breeks says:

      I cannot add up the arithmetic of trying to stop Brexit.

      If the SNP wants the English to step back from the Abyss and rethink Brexit for the sake of multilateral stability, then why not do so via a Constitutional ultimatum that proceeding with Brexit will constitute a material breach of the Union?

      We can “oppose” the insanity of Brexit from a perspective which legitimately strengthens our cause for Independence, yet we seem to be disputing Brexit from an abstract perspective which undermines our constitutional divergence for the UK’s current trajectory.

      If the SNP does secure an Article 50 extension for a General Election, or steers through Article 50 being revoked, what will have we achieved besides squandering the phenomenon of Brexit as an immediate means to put the Union in existential jeopardy?

      Don’t derail Brexit, but insist emphatically that Scottish Independence will be it’s inevitable consequence, and leave that notion to stew.

      It reads instead like the SNP heed-yin’s are utterly flummoxed by Brexit, and want Brexit defused and sidelined as an issue, so we can all get back to having a cosy chat about Independence like the good old days. If I’m wrong about that, don’t tell me, show me! Show me any concrete and emphatic obstruction put up to actually defeat Brexit.

      We talk about a gold standard democratic referendum, but what is Brexit if NOT a definitive “gold standard” example of Scotland’s colonial subjugation masquerading as a consensual Union? We couldn’t have hoped for a better lining up of the planets for Scotland’s advantage; an arbitrary Brexit referendum we didn’t want, a democratic and sovereign rejection of Brexit subsequently ignored, Scotland united as one in its emphatic rejection of Brexit, calamitous and grievous consequences for our economy if Brexit proceeds, the inexcusable degradation of our friends from Europe who have chosen to make Scotland their home, and off course, the binary challenge to Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty which MUST be subjugated for the UK Parliament to have it’s way. What more could we want??? A perfect storm in Scotland’s favour. How long have we waited for that phenomenon???

      Why, why in God’s name, is Scotland’s party of Independence seeking to negate the constitutional ramifications of Brexit, “duck and cover” until Brexit has passed over us, then hold a quaint little referendum in 2020 when it’s safe to emerge from the shelters into a post-Brexit British wasteland?

      Please, no more talk of policy beyond Brexit. Can we progress beyond this endless purgatory and start making sure Brexit is a thing which doesn’t happen to Scotland? We have the Constitutional means at our disposal to be sure of this. Why are we still playing games??

    130. Abulhaq says:

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17840682.first-minister-says-no-deal-brexit-will-accelerate-indyref2-plans/
      The corollary of the above is a deal Brexit will decelerate indyref2 plans.
      Consequently FM a Brit no deal is strategically the best deal for Scotland.

    131. Capella says:

      @ Abulhaq – not necessarily. You can speed up a process which is progressing at a steady pace. Not speeding up is not the same as slowing down. Elemenfary my dear Tintin.

    132. sassenach says:

      Abulhaq @8-50am

      A comma after “FM” or one after “Brit” could have made your sentence have clearer understanding of your own position!!

    133. Hackalumpoff says:

      See Nana’s links here:
      https://indyref2.space/category/nanas-links/

    134. Capella says:

      Some timely advice for Jo Swinson make an SNP MP the caretaker PM

      https://twitter.com/ScotsKat/status/1162128408161206272?s=20

    135. Dorothy Devine says:

      IanB, words unminced about G.Hassan .

      I always thought he gobbled his words and found him extremely hard to understand. In desperate need of a few elocution lessons.

      Perhaps it is time that he really ate them.

      Did he ever pay that bet Rev?

    136. Thepnr says:

      Revealed: The mystery of two new Scottish Labour companies

      http://archive.fo/5gHJf

    137. Grafter says:

      Enough of this chattering ! Get off your backsides and come to Aberdeen tomorrow. March starts 1.30pm Albyn Place.
      Lord Provost Crockett will be flying his union flag above the Townhouse. Let’s show them where to stick it.

    138. call me dave says:

      Did you listen to Christine Jardine on shortbread trying to explain the lib/demanding position Anne what Swansong really meant.

      Her prevarications and circumlocution got so complicated the interviewer made the mistake of asking for a yes or no about Corbyn….. and off she went again….interviewer gave up!

    139. call me dave says:

      FGS: lib/dem position about.

      This tablet has a mind of it’s own 🙁

    140. Mac says:

      Clapper57 @8:58

      I couldn’t resist sharing this article that really illustrates:

      1. How close we came in 2014

      2. How frail the No vote actually was

      3. How frightened ‘No’ and ‘Better Together’ actually were

      4. Beaten only by propaganda of much bigger enemies.

      5. What we need to do for Indy2

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11311365/How-the-Union-was-almost-lost-The-inside-story-of-the-Scottish-independence-campaigns-last-100-days.html

      If you didn’t read it, you should. It will make you sick, angry and delighted all at the same time.

      Think on it as ‘valuable insight’

      Lets ratchet up the fear for Indy2

    141. Mac says:

      Clapper57 @8:58 … and I daresay you are only a year older than me!! 🙂

    142. Thepnr says:

      @Mac

      Here’s an archived version of that Telegraph article, it was done some 5 months ago. Archive.is is well worth learning how to use as it means the likes of the Telegraph, Mail and Express don’t get paid for clicks by Independence supporters.

      It also means that the articles are saved elsewhere as you never know when a paper for some reason might want to get rid of them.

      The easiest way to use it is to drag the button at the top of the page called archive.today onto your browsers toolbar.

      Then when reading an article that you decide to archive you just click that button and it’s done for you, no cutting and pasting of links required.

    143. Thepnr says:

      Hahaha I forgot the link 🙂

      http://archive.fo/flgXx

      Also meant to say regarding your post that went into moderation and did not appear, this may be because you included more than 4 links in a single post. I don’t believe that such posts are accepted.

    144. call me dave says:

      But remember when Boris and the Farage balloon told us to vote leave as ‘nasty’ Turkey would be in the EU.

      Is it not ironic today that a Turkish pension fund is now about buy out ‘British Steel’. 🙁

    145. orri says:

      It’s more than just saving English/British Leavers from their own folly it’s also the Remainers including those in Scotland. Seen a graph recently showing that the closer in the EU to the ground zero of English/UK Brexit the more of an impact it’ll have. So even if Scotland opts for independence it’ll still be dragging us down.

      However if the figures approving or more accurately not standing in the way of indyref2 are accurate then perhaps the SNP strategy is actually bearing fruit.

      Note though the change in mood music. Not even the SNP are saying stop Brexit. The game now is to stop a no-deal Brexit. Labour were elected to oppose a tory Brexit not prevent it entirely.

      IF the Corbyn led “coup” happens then kiss the idea of Remain goodbye. It’ll be leaving with a deal that protects as many workers rights as possible.

    146. Clapper57 says:

      @ Thepnr @ 10.37

      Thanks for archived link

      @ Mac @ 10.01am

      Hi Mac , a lot to read…will read later on today when have more time…scrolled down and noted JK Rowling in a picture with Darling…aye concerned bystander my a*se…. an active member of the BT campaign…she bought her way in…money talks..she will not have any credibility in the next Indy ref….no doubt she will pump more money in to other side’s NEW campaign…doubt she will risk producing another wee ditty but as she writes fantasy then you never know…brass necks is common among many a Unionist supporter Lol

      @ Mac @ 10.02am

      BTW the 57 does not represent my age…..represents when SNP got 56 MP’s and when they were reprimanded by Bercow for clapping in HOC…I am clapper 57 as I endorse the clapping…as opposed to Hear Hear….keeping it… even though their numbers, the SNP MP’s, have now been diminished .

      Mentally, regressing, as far as age is concerened…Lol

    147. Thepnr says:

      Ferguson Marine has been nationalised by the Scottish government.

      http://archive.fo/MP0TK

    148. Mac says:

      ThePNR and Clapper57

      Thanks for info on Archiving. 🙂

      Have you ever tried Rebutr

      http://rbutr.com/

      I really don’t know why it is not widely used, especially by the champion rebutters on here…
      It also sits on your tool bar and tells you if the article has already been ‘shot down in flames’… Or you can do it and add the rebuttal

    149. Mac says:

      Thepnr @10:37

      “.. included more than 4 links in a single post…”

      Yes I did. It was a long post LOL

    150. Bill Hicks says:

      Call Me Dave..

      “Ruth, Rennie and Richard (The 3-R’s)must do the math and concede.”

      Don’t you mean ( The 3-Rses )

    151. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says: 16 August, 2019 at 8:50 am:

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17840682.first-minister-says-no-deal-brexit-will-accelerate-indyref2-plans/

      ” … The corollary of the above is a deal Brexit will decelerate indyref2 plans.”

      Totally illogical conclusions, Abulhaq.

      How does, it follow that the indyref2 plans will decelerate due to the absence of a no-deal exit?

      It is utter claptrap – the logical conclusion is that a no-deal Brexit simply leaves the plan, whatever it is, to remains as it was.

      Now either you are totally confused or you have an ulterior motive in attempting to get Wingers to believe your usual anti-FM, anti-SG, anti-SNP rubbish.

      The absence of a no deal exit simply leaves the existing plans, whatever they are, as they are. It does not reverse them.

      What is more the above charts show that even the threat of any form of BR UK-Exit is having the effect of accelerating ScotExit from the United Kingdom.

    152. Cactus says:

      LIVE show NOW airing on IndyLive radio, with special guests

      Tune in and join the discussion

      indylive.radio

    153. ahundredthidiot says:

      Breeks@8:28

      Spot on.

      And, while it’s never entirely wise to put a deadline on these type of things, I genuinely believe we have 2 years before people like me switch off, give up and get on with our miserable lives.

      NS needs to put her hand in the air, rugby style, apologise for getting trapped in the ‘save England from herself’ brexit spider web that she now finds herself in and provide a strategic vision for achieving Scotland Independence in this ‘new reality’.

    154. Clapper57 says:

      @ Thepnr @ 11.31am

      When will we find out Monica Lennon initiated this ?

      Not so much public ownership more Monica ownership….

    155. Robert Peffers says:

      Dorothy Devine says: 16 August, 2019 at 9:31 am:

      ” … In desperate need of a few elocution lessons.
      Perhaps it is time that he really ate them.
      Did he ever pay that bet Rev?”

      I think your predictive text thingy has mis-spelled “Electrocution”, for you, Dorothy.
      ;-))

    156. Thepnr says:

      @Clapper57

      “BTW the 57 does not represent my age…..represents when SNP got 56 MP’s and when they were reprimanded by Bercow for clapping in HOC…I am clapper 57…”

      Hahaha. As a choice for a handle that is just simply class 🙂

    157. Capella says:

      Turns out, the racist, ex RAF Elgin candidate for the BREXIT Party was a Tory until April. Moray was 49% LEAVE in the EU Referendum and the most NO voting region in Indyref1. Did we not speculate that the presence of a high proportion of military types could be swaying the votes in Moray?

      Explains their appearance on QT as well and the undisclosed presence of Mary Scanlon and Mr Orange jacket?

      http://archive.fo/l6uxv

    158. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 08:28:

      It reads instead like the SNP heed-yin’s are utterly flummoxed by Brexit, and want Brexit defused and sidelined as an issue, so we can all get back to having a cosy chat about Independence like the good old days.

      Yes, I have long had the same impression, though from the outside it’s not clear exactly how widespread that view is. It may ultimately not be the one that prevails.

      While the emhasis is on stopping a no-deal Brexit, from an independence point of view it seems we are getting into rapidly-diminishing returns. But we will surely have to get a UKGE out of the way first, like it or not.

      ahundredthidiot @ 11:42,

      Peter Bell has something to say on the same subject in his latest blog:

      https://peterabell.blog/2019/08/15/no-more-septembers

      While it has been wise policy to let the Westminster Establishment get into a right public fankle over Brexit, neither should we fall into the error of assuming that time will always be on our side.

    159. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dorothy Devine (9.31) –

      re Hassan.

      Years ago, well before indy1, I had a good look at his blog. I had no preconceived idea about the guy and wanted to be objective. Most of us must’ve gone through the same process with social media in relation to indy, trying to find voices we could tolerate and/or recommend to others.

      I really did try. But it was like raking through the midgie-bins for empty ginger bottles. Article after article, nothing of any substance, so I just ignored him and didn’t go back to his blog.

      Then started noticing him popping up here and there, on radio and telly. I was still watching Newsnight Scotland (shows how long ago this was!) and he appeared one night, blabbing on to whoever-it-was about some shite or other. I was listening hard, trying to make sense of it – it was just an aural version of his blog posts. Eventually it came to the bit where the show had to join the ‘proper’ Newsnight and the host gave him the nod to wind-up. Unfortunately, Hassan ran out of shite. The presenter didn’t offer another question or help him in any way so he started up again, a stream of polysyllables and non-sequiturs. Kind of like when you’ve got diarrhoea and you think you’ve ‘finished’, then comes another batch. It was truly hideous to listen to. And then he stopped, smiled, and shrugged his shoulders as if to say ‘well, I tried man, what else do you want me to say?!’, almost as if it was being recorded and he thought he’d done more than enough.

      I’ve never viewed him, since then, as anything but a prostitute.

    160. Ian Brotherhood says:

      P.S. It wasn’t joining ‘proper’ Newsnight, must’ve been the show finishing. In any event, wish I’d noted the date. It really was the closest I’ve ever seen to a stooge giving his handler a nudge/wink.

    161. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      “Kind of like when you’ve got diarrhoea and you think you’ve ‘finished’, then comes another batch.”

      Did I really read that? No, no, surely not hahaha creasing myself.

    162. ScotsRenewables says:

      Just messing about this morning and something occurred to me . . . as some of you know, I provide the indyref2.space site where Nana’s Links are now posted every weekday.

      Well . . .

      borisjohnsonwasteof.space
      ruthdavidsonwasteof.space

      . . .and lots of other cheapie xxxwasteof.space domain names are available to register if anyone wanted to make a bit of mischief . . .

    163. kapelmeister says:

      Germany’s business paper Handelsblatt has leaked German govt papers which say a no deal brexit is on the cards and that EU preparations for it are largely complete.

    164. Ottomanboi says:

      From a Swedish site about Scots in Sweden.
      Skottland blev 1707 en del av Storbritannien varför det är svårt att särskilja skottar från övriga britter i statistiken.
      Scotland became part of the United Kingdom in 1707, which makes it difficult to distinguish Scots from other Britons in the statistics.
      Similar issue in South American where Scots are generally classed as Inglës.
      Unfortunately, without a sovereign state the world at large does not distinguish Scots from British from English.
      Scots being proud of being British is the equivalent of being proud to be a faizart*
      *DSL castrated fowl, coward, weakling.

    165. Dorothy Devine says:

      Mr Peffers – a most excellent idea!

      IanB , that made me laugh a lot – thanks!

    166. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – ditto. I used to listen to R Scotland GMS every day during 2014 thinking it would be so enlightening about the indy issues. Oh dear – I know. Gerry Hassan was one of their favourite go-to pundits to spout absolute unintelligible rubbish.

      I regard it as “word salad” which is typical of someone with a disorder so maybe we shouldn’t be too critical. But why the BBC continued to shoe him into the studio is as much a mystery as why they had Margaret Curran on speed dial. The answer is probably a six letter word starting with L and ending with r.

      BTW last week I joked about Margaret Curran being always on the radio and – stone me! – she was the subject of the “longform interview” conducted by Gordon Brewer, pontificating about conflict resolution in the middle east. All those years in SLab have paid off or Magrit.

    167. crazycat says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood

      I first came across Gerry Hassan in the late 1980s when he wrote to a radical bookshop collective I was part of, looking for a job on his return to Scotland. We had to tell him we were all volunteers, after which he lost interest (fair enough; he needed to earn a living).

      We never met him, but the interesting thing was that all the men in the group thought he sounded wonderful, and regretted the fact that we weren’t suitable for him, whereas all the women thought he sounded like a total prat and we’d had a lucky escape.

    168. Marcia says:

      Clapper57 says:
      16 August, 2019 at 11:43 am
      @ Thepnr @ 11.31am

      When will we find out Monica Lennon initiated this ?

      Not so much public ownership more Monica ownership….

      – now now – you should know she is building the ship herself.

    169. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dorothy, Capella & crazycat –

      🙂 🙂 🙂

      Poor Gerry’s lugs must be red hot.

    170. Abulhaq says:

      @Robert Peffers
      I can suggest a few titles on elementary logic.
      You seem wedded to the notion that the we are living in the best of all possible worlds, SNP worlds that is, for attaining the only goal that matters.
      The SNP, the FM and the SG operate in their own political universe. I, and not a few others, dont happen to share that universe.
      Too much time has been wasted under Sturgeon, a leader whose caution has gone well beyond reasonable endurance.

    171. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic but currently newsworthy. The Independent newspaper had LIBDEM JO SWINSON well sussed out a couple of years ago, when the LibDems were searching round for a new leader. [16thb June 2017]

      “…..But before the Lib Dems go ahead and vindicate the bookies’ early odds, it may be worth taking a look at Swinson’s political history. How truly liberal is she?

      An MP cannot escape their voting record, and Swinson’s is attached to her like a ball and chain.

      On welfare, she has voted to cut payments including those for people with illness or disability; on economic policy, she voted against increased income tax over £150,000, and voted against a tax on banker’s bonuses, protecting the wealth of those who need it least at the cost of the most vulnerable in society;

      Swinson voted to cut funding for young people seeking jobs or further training, voted slowing the increase of rail fees, and against restricting the fees that landlords can charge tenants.

      Swinson has stood in the way of devolved democratisation through votes against local government funding. She has allowed environmental destruction by voting to sell off state-owned forests.

      Her shameful record still does not end there: her vote for increased restrictions on legal aid hinders access to justice for those who are already barely getting by…….”

      This politician is more fitting of a true blue MP of the “nasty party”.

      Swinson, after all, served happily as a Junior Minister in the Tory LibDem Coalition Government.

    172. call me dave says:

      Jings!

      Boris on big auntie BBC gets a chance to acknowledge the police service and pay his respects and condolences to the family of the murdered policeman but only after a few seconds goes into a political broadcast about how much money he ‘spending’.

      Cringe FGS!

      Not a good look but it’s Boris. 🙁

    173. Brian Powell says:

      A bit off topic, but looking at all the times Labour is blamed for the poor performance of Wales, it is interesting to see this:

      https://twitter.com/JulieOwenMoylan/status/1162292805244456960?s=20

      Of course we know what a LabLib coalition was like for Holyrood.

    174. Thepnr says:

      @Abulhaq

      “Too much time has been wasted under Sturgeon”

      You’re the biggest time waster of all with your “rise up Scotland” being the biggest waste of time of all. You have made it obvious as to what you are all about. Don’t you worry Abulshit we will gain Independence our way and that does not require revolution or terrorism in the streets of Scotland. However much you may wish that to be so.

      Please quietly fuck off and form your own radical, revolutionary and right on blog of your own, give the rest of us peace to do it without needing to put anyone in the sight of rubber bullets.

    175. shug says:

      What is it the unionists are doing that triggers the visceral hatred of Nicola.

      I have heard a couple and they used the same line with Alex Salmond and I really don’t get it.

      Scottish Government a waste of time all SNP bad but with real spite and I really don’t get it.

    176. Dr Jim says:

      @Thepnr 2:34pm

      Well said, the guy’s a div

    177. sassenach says:

      Abdulaq

      You are such an obvious Britnat agent that it’s worrying that you keep trying.

    178. Dr Jim says:

      @shug 2:44pm

      Check out the FMs twitter it doesn’t matter what she says or does they pour the hatred on

      Thankfully most of the haters are not coming from Scotland now but England because of what they read in newspapers in that country, the ones that are from Scotland nearly all have something to do with Rangers in their profiles because of their deluded notions Independence has something to do with removing their right to be sectarianists

      Then there’s the hate squad themselves who’s automatic response to everything is to tweet hatred just because they can, and it’s the same set of people every single day, like it’s their job or something

      If you remember when Kezia Dugdale was in charge of the branch office she engaged people for money to *Tweet for Labour* and those people were immediately doing just that on the FMs Twitter while at the same time Ms Dugdale was complaining about people being unpleasant on Twitter

    179. Thepnr says:

      State of Johnson, the Prime Minister is gash, makes you want to puke. Anyone still doubt that we’re heading for a General Election?

      Boris Johnson’s ‘Vision for Britain’ video is being mercilessly mocked

      https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-news-latest-boris-johnson-vision-for-britain-video-reaction-9062441

    180. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This may be something for Cameron B to get his teeth into…

      Since Hassan’s disgraceful stuff appearing yesterday, and seeing the various testimonies regarding him, I’ve been wondering what motivates someone like that.

      It’s not as if he’s a daftie. He’s as able as the next person to see what happening, discern the direction of travel. So why does he have to be such a dick about it?

      Is it the dosh? Well, if he’s working as a professor (but quite a new one) what sort of salary would he be on? About 30K? (I genuinely don’t know, that’s why I’m asking.) And the appearances on BBC, LBC, whatever else can’t rake in that much (anyone know what a five min ‘interview’ with Brewer is worth?). But still, I would imagine he’s got to be grossing somewhere near 35k. Does that sound a fair guess? (We know he still owes Rev a tenner, so that should be factored-in…)

      Is a 35k income (and let’s not forget he isn’t ‘tenured’, is he?) enough for someone to hold their nose and parrot a line which they *know* is untrue and potentially inflammatory?

      Or is it the kudos of being regarded as an intellectual, a ‘voice’ which trumps everything else? To someone like that (and we can all think of others just like him, both in and outwith the indy debate) the approval of authority overrides everything else as a motivating factor. That may indicate (as Capella suggested above) some kind of syndrome or ‘want’ in the man, but if that is the case then he should go and get treatment. He’s certainly not deserving of pity.

      This is why I find him particularly loathsome. We know that the msm has a knack of finding those folk who totally buy into Establishment narratives and feel no qualms whatsoever about punting them 24/7. That’s why ‘guilt’ simply doesn’t come into it and we had, a few years ago, the strange spectacle of Chomsky having to treat Andrew Marr like a 6-yr old whilst trying to explain it all. But Hassan, like others I could name but won’t (I’m curious to see what others think, who they identify as similar) is different. He’s well aware of both sides of the various arguments relating to independence, and he has chosen to ally himself with the State in the knowledge that this involves peddling dangerous lies about real individuals as well as rabbiting on about hypotheticals, polls and suchlike. What he’s doing – and has been doing for years – is utterly despicable.

      Since my outburst on Twitter I’ve had a few folk advising me to ignore him on the grounds that he’s nothing more than a self-publicising wanker. That would indeed appear to be the case, but, fwiw, I would prefer to see as many folk as possible slapping him down – hard and fast – each and every time he trots out yet more of his meaning-free garbage.

    181. Clapper57 says:

      @ Thepnr @ 11.47am

      Yes Thepnr , I am a classy lassie…sometimes sassy…look nothing like Shirley Bassey.

      @ Marcia @ 1.35pm

      Hi Marcia…pity she couldn’t find the time to build bridges instead of SNPBADDING 24/7…as for ships…her ship sailed a long time ago…time she and her party drifted out to sea…ooo arrgh Captain der be a reckoning a comin…maybe Monica could take ownership of that…Lol

    182. Lenny Hartley says:

      IB double yer estimate on the Wankers salary.
      https://www.indeed.co.uk/salaries/Professor-Salaries,-Scotland

    183. Thepnr says:

      What did “Leave” mean to the Tory government when they gave advice to voters in March of 2016. Clue: It didn’t include no deal.

      https://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2019/08/16/which-version-of-brexit-did-britain-vote-for/

    184. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lenny Hartley –

      WTF?!?

      Okay, scratch all the rest of the shite I wrote above.

      He’s in it for the dosh!

    185. Clapper57 says:

      @ Mac & Thepnr ( archived article from Torygraph)

      Hi Guys, Well there’s me thinking the Third Reich was deid…. obviously was revived…… not gangnam style but Unionam style…the template for their shitaboutery was indeed very much applied courtesy of BT UKOK ( for some not for others)….ve vill vin dis campaign by any means und ze schweinhunds better watch oot och aye the noo….we’ll even use Irn Bru.

      Am I Shocked…No…Am I Surprised…No…..

      Down right underhanded Strategy…. Down right underhanded strategy…where for art thou…why I’m doon at the Better Together campaign office….can yae no see me ….it’s like so feckin obvious.

      On a brighter note…I believe that they do not like it up them…and Brexit, which magnifies ( even more) the many broken promises made by them in BT go home campaign, is indeed driving it so far up them that their Union is not only lost but sinking faster than Gordon’s brown’s jowls..you know what they say live like a N*zi and you eventually…lose your Union (non)….Lol

    186. Terry callachan says:

      When you choose a leader to fight your case it’s best not to run a separate campaign at the same time, I say that because your opposition will find a way of setting one group against the other, it’s a well practiced ploy.

      Alex Salmond was the leader of the Scottish independence campaign not just the leader of the SNP to dispute that is silly.

      In my opinion Nicola Sturgeon took over leadership of the SNP and leadership of the Scottish independence campaign.
      Lots of people will say there are other people and organisations leading the the campaign for Scottish Independence ,I agree but they are not leading it at the top of the chain the way Nicola Sturgeon is ,you cannot ignore how the opposition see us and there is no doubt that they see Nicola Sturgeon as the leader.

      The recent idea of a wings party is a great idea ,however in my opinion it is something for later ,by later I mean after the Scottish independence referendum that Nicola Sturgeon has promised, we have to support the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon and that means giving both our full backing togetherness is what makes us strong .

      You can only have one leader if you want to win.

      If a general election happens before a Scottish independence referendum we campaign for SNP only.
      The next Scottish parliament election will be 2021 ,Nicola Sturgeon has already said a Scottish independence referendum is planned for 2020.

      It all fits.
      Trust your leader
      Trust Nicola Sturgeon

      England is bitter and itching for a fight right now ,I think their politicians would love a diversion that will stop them fighting among themselves , Scotland could be that diversion although it’s likely Northern Ireland will be first in line the way things are going.

      It’s a real worry that Boris Johnson is determined to cause a border to be reintroduced in Ireland it will escalate to civil war again for sure.So sad.

    187. Juteman says:

      @Ian Brotherhood.

      One of my mates is a part-time Prof/Lecturer and gets £37 per hour.

    188. Clapper57 says:

      I hear that the BBC ‘The Nine’ had Brenda O’Neill on last night discussing climate change…stop sniggering at the back…may I also suggest to them a programme on Fidelity in Tory land with Edwina Currie as guest..as I believe tis a MAJOR concern….especially to those (guests i.e. Brendan und Edwina) who give not a rat’s a*se on climate change…oor or rather their Brendan ( and probably very much so Edwina)….he ( and she) are most definitely deniers of ALL that is good and positive….for mankind.

      Wow what AM I missing on the new BBC Scotland FLAGSH*T channel….well….. that would be nought as in other BritNat channels….yir ‘avin a laugh BBC…BBC…you can stick yir licence fee.

    189. call me dave says:

      @Clapper57

      Brendan O’Neill you say?

      Was on Radio 5 this morning pouring cold water on climate change. A white western civilization plot.
      How very dare we leave stop human advancement and leave all the poorer countries behind to squalor and want!

      Greta Thunberg on a yacht is a stunt! (correct spelling)

      That Brenda…dinnae like the cut of his jib!

    190. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      I don’t know much about the guy other than he used to identify as British, he may still do, and has been published on several occasions by the Fabian Society. So he might be a Fabian ‘socialist’, who tend to support British nationalism.

      So sorry, I’m not sure if I’m qualified to express an opinion, other than I loved the Hulk gif. 🙂

    191. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Or to be more blunt, he’s not a straight player, IMHO. I pretty sure he’s working for the other team.

    192. Clapper57 says:

      @ call me dave @ 5.07pm

      Hi call me dave, so he was TOURING the BBC….wish someone had SPIKED his drink LAST NIGHT might have stopped him spewing out more hatred and right wing climate denying sheeite on RADIO 5 4 3 2 1….NOT that I LISTENED to it but I can imagine what he was saying….him NOT being an actual authority on anything other than hate and division….pity they didn’t cover that with him as a guest….now that is what he IS an expert on.

      BTW…I misread a word in your last line…the word was ‘CUT’ …can you think what I imagined I saw the word to be ?….clue would be an apt description for his character….Lol

    193. Confused says:

      GERRY HASSAN always looked to me like yer average basic-bitch waffler and dribbler, the cringey whiner, overthinking it, always putting obstacles in his own way – and his way is the only way.

      There’s quite a lot of these fellows and it is best not to worry too much about them; basic reality is – these guys do nothing which is of any particular interest or importance, intellectually or economically (at least jakey trolling shifts units) – society thus tolerates them as an adornment, of a kind, a luxury item. The slots available are quite limited, and the good slots, even more so – thus, these guys are always going to end up serving the power interest, especially as they age. When you first notice that the clock ticks even for you, life switches to defensive mode, no longer acquisitive, but holding onto what you have.

      – prompted by Ian B I had a read at Hassan’s latest – I would not recommend it, it’s a similar hatchet job to Mike Small, but done with more skill, less obviously

      a precis of his latest – Is it really time for another pro-independence party in Scotland?

      answer to quesion in title : NO

      it might work but it would be undemocratic, even tho its within the rules

      wingers are non-persons because they are not as right-on as myself

      only the purest of the pure may be allowed in the movement or to lead it

      anyone who doesnt hold the same views as me is rightwing

      rev and wings and wings party is just farage and brexit with a saltire on it

      he conflates brexit and independence in sneaky ways, reeking of sophistry

      the wings BTL is similar to the daily mail

      “white people” are the enemy, 96% of Scotland, last count

      “men” are the enemy, half the population

      ex-working class are the enemy, still around 75% of the population

      (- and you wonder why the identity politics pseudo left with their nonsense, inc. fake biology – CANNY WIN A VOTE

      BTW : YOURE ALL A BUNCH OF CUNTS AND WE HATE YOU – CAN WE COUNT ON YOUR SUPPORT?)

      populism = rightwing

      we are alt-right; he is nicking off leask here, who coined “alt-nat”

      we’re all closet fascists and while he just manages to avoid writing it

      the rev is “literally hitler” – that phrase beloved of fresher twitter fights

      heres’ a quote I wish I had thought of :

      IDENTITY POLITICS IS THE LEFTWING OF NEOLIBERALISM

      – all these absolute fucking tits we call Scottish Intellectuals should have it branded into their foreheads.

      Independence is above actual politics, its about -getting- the politics that is your right to have. You should, if you are serious “the buckaroo principle” – keep the details out of it, but if you did want to go there then you have to remember the average scot is centre-left on his economics and conservative on social issues, outside of a handful of city enclaves; if you want to win, you need to remember this … do they want to win? really?

      – anyhoo – I’m off to polish my boots, wash the armband and clean and re-grease the spandau …

    194. CameronB Brodie says:

      Not that I’m suggesting Fabian ‘socialism’ is intrinsically evil, it’s just that most Fabians I know, think of multi-cultural Britain in a way that fails to value Scotland’s difference from England. Some of them even deny Scots have a right to “internal sovereignty”. Subsequently, I think Fabian ‘socialism’ should be renamed “English socialism”, as I think George Orwell might have suggested. 😉

      Remember, the full-English Brexit is an expression of authoritarian and xenophobic English nationalism.

      Who speaks to England?
      6: Whatever happened to multiculturalism?

      England and Labour

      The point of the above is that multicultural Britishness continues to have a pertinence as an ideal, and its ethos is present in elements of law and policy and in a a form of governance closely associated with Labour governments. Hopefully, this will be true of future Labour governments, in contrast to Conservative efforts to displace it with a more top-down, mono-nationalist and establishment ‘British values’ perspective.

      Yet over the last couple of decades a new set of identitarian challenges have become apparent, initially in Scotland but latterly throughout the UK. In none of the nations of the union does the majority of the population consider themselves British, without also considering themselves English, Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish. The 2011 census is not a detailed study of identity but it is striking that 70 per cent of the people of England ticked the ‘English’ box and the vast majority of them did not also tick the ‘British’ box. This was much more the case with white people than non-whites, who were more likely to identify as British only or British combined with English.

      Multiculturalism, then, may actually have succeeded in fostering a British national identity amongst the ethnic minorities. The challenge now is to relate those who primarily think in mono-nationalist terms with those who think of themselves in bi-nationalist terms – e.g. English and British – or whose sense of Britishness is a union of multilevel and crosscutting differences.

      Multiculturalism here offers not only the plea that English national consciousness should be developed in a context of a broad, differentiated British identity but ethnic minorities become an important bridging group between the English mono-nationalists and the English-British.

      Paradoxically, a supposedly out of date political multiculturalism becomes a source from which to think about not just integration of minorities but also how to conceive of our plural nationality and give expression to dual identities such as English-British. It is no small irony that minority groups who all too often are seen as harbingers of fragmentation could prove to be exemplars of the union and a source of differentiated unity.

      The minimum one would wish to urge upon a centre-left taking English consciousness seriously is that it should not be simply nostalgic, exclusively majoritarian and that it should avoid ethno-nationalism (‘Anglo-Saxonism’). More positively, multiculturalism, with its central focus on equal citizenship and diverse identities and on the renewing and reforging of nationality to make it inclusive of contemporary diversity, shows how we can be equally sensitive to internal diversity, multiple identities and the need to strengthen an appreciation of the emotional charge of belonging together….

      https://www.winchester.ac.uk/media/content-assets/documents/rke-documents/Fabian-Society—Who-speaks-to-England-FINAL.pdf

      P.S. Scotland tends not register in the English consciousness. The Scottish consciousness is shaped primarily by English choices.

    195. Capella says:

      Don’t forget Professor Stanley Unwin, master of the word salad.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UJZF5iRhNg

    196. Hamish100 says:

      So Scottish farmers may not get the monies entitled to them but held back by the tories.

      Tory mp response. What has the snp been doing.

      Liars is too nice a word for the tories

      For the Farming community voting Tory. He’ll mend you.

    197. galamcennalath says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      Hassan …. I’ve been wondering what motivates someone like that.

      I concluded ages ago he has a grossly inflated sense of self importance and deludes himself that what he says is worth listening to.

      His typical output can be summed up with … “we need to be talking about why we want Indy, and what we want it to deliver”. In that respect he’s always arse-for-elbow because without Indy we are whistling in the wind. We could day dream like him, or we could try to achieve Indy so we can then actually implement the future we democratically decide upon.

      He’s critical, but never constructively. Wads of words, nothing of consequence in them. Everyone else isn’t doing things the way he would want them done, but we never find out what he believes. Hints of the ideological pure left which perpetually fails to deliver anything.

      Reminds me of one of those people who hold an office meeting and feel they’ve made a success of it because all decisions have been put off, and the next meeting scheduled.

      I never read anything he writes, now. But it pisses me off that someone who has said little and achieved less gets the exposure he does.

    198. galamcennalath says:

      Hamish100 says:

      For the Farming community voting Tory. Hell mend you.

      I agree with you concerning ‘gentleman farmers’ with their Range Rovers, muckle shiny new tractors, sending their kids to private schools.

      There is another farming community in Scotland … marginal hill farms and crofts. Small, family run, and totally dependent on their CAP payments. These folks are more likely to drive a ten year old pickup. Scotland’s uplands and islands could change completely and irreversiblely. The treat is enormous.

    199. Mac says:

      I have just donated my TV licence, split between Phantom Films and 10,000 flags for YES.

      I will never pay the BBC TV licence as long as I live. They are the occupiers of Scotland. What they do today, affects our Grandchildren and their children. If every YES supporter in Scotland stopped paying there would be nothing they could do…

      And as I once said in 2014 … imagine even 200,000 – 300,000 people who donated their annual licence fees to YES causes… That’s between 35 – 52million GBP over the next 12 months.

      Imagine, a war chest that would be to support a broad variety of Indy causes.

      It is not enough to complain about them, you have to hit them where it hurts.

    200. Mac says:

      Clapper57 4:19pm

      Glad you read it. It is to be celebrated. The frailty of the NO vote exposed!

      I am coming home soon for the new battle. My wounds are healed and I am stronger.

      Looking forward to the fray. 🙂

    201. MorvenM says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      If you don’t mind my asking, what was the offending article by Gerry Hassan?

    202. manandboy says:

      A visit or two to Elgin is more or less a fixture during the annual summer holidays in that area. I wouldn’t say that Elgin is little England, but if I was told that, then I would say I’m not surprised.

    203. manandboy says:

      https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/moray/elgin/1819015/huge-military-convoy-loaded-onto-train-in-moray-as-part-of-army-exercise/

      They need training in the deployment of men and vehicles to control the anticipated food riots after Brexit. All is well in Tory world.

    204. sassenach says:

      My goodness, just came across this (obviously British) site, scary!!

      http://archive.fo/c4QVs

    205. CameronB Brodie says:

      The enemies of democracy are those who are prepared to accept falsehood and the imaginary as fact.

      Cognitive biases in moral judgments that affect political behavior

      Abstract

      Cognitive biases that affect decision making may affect the decisions of citizens that influence public policy. To the extent that decisions follow principles other than maximizing utility for all, it is less likely that utility will be maximized, and the citizens will ultimately suffer the results.

      Here I outline some basic arguments concerning decisions by citizens, using voting as an example. I describe two types of values that may lead to sub-optimal consequences when these values influence political behavior: moralistic values (which people are willing to impose on others regardless of the consequences) and protected values (PVs, values protected from trade-offs).

      I present evidence against the idea that voting is expressive, i.e., that voters aim to express their moral views rather than to have an effect on outcomes. I show experimentally that PVs are often moralistic. Finally, I present some data that citizens’ think of their duty in a parochial way, neglecting out-groups. I conclude that moral judgments are important determinants of citizen behavior, that these judgments are subject to biases and based on moralistic values, and that, therefore, outcomes are probably less good than they could be.

      Keywords
      Cognitive biases · Moral judgment · Moralistic values · Protected values · Parochialism · Citizenship

      https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~baron/papers/synthese.pdf

    206. cynicalHighlander says:

      @manand boy

      http://archive.is/qBGBn

      don’t fund our enemy press

    207. Dorothy Devine says:

      Capella , you’ve hit the nail on the head , that is exactly how Mr Hassan sounds to me but with less articulation!

    208. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the enemies of democracy. Their method is to trigger cognitive bias (see the full-English Brexit).

      Cognitive Biases and the Strength of Political Arguments

      Abstract

      Competition in political debate is not always sufficient to neutralize the effects of political rhetoric on public opinion (Chong and Druckman 2007). Yet still little is known about the factors that shape the persuasiveness of political arguments. In this paper, I consider whether cognitive biases influence the perceived strength of political arguments, making some arguments more persuasive than others.

      I develop a theoretical framework that draws on lessons from neurobiology and recent political psychology research on emotion, and test its implications using data collected from an experiment. The results suggest that individuals are more likely to be persuaded by political arguments that evoke cognitive biases even in the face of a counter argument. I conclude with some thoughts about the normative implications of these empirical findings and potential avenues for future research.

      http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.527.7453&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    209. galamcennalath says:

      Brilliant, pipes and drums flash mob in Germany …

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=1ac-j2dedpk

    210. Col.Blimp IV says:

      sassenach

      “Scary!!”

      Actually I found their upbeat tone quite refreshing.

      Just about everything presented as a “FACT” by someone with an axe to grind has to be viewed with a skeptical eye.

      But their opinion that the UK should not pay one penny of the £35 Billion divorce money due to the EU, in the event of the EU making good on threats of post-Brexit intransigence – seems pretty reasonable to me.

      What scares me is the “FACT” that SNP “remainers within the context of the Union”, seem unable or unwilling to acknowledge that their gloom and doom scaremongering spiel. Is uncannily similar to the shite peddled by Better Together.

      And may come back to bite them on the arse

    211. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brain science is good voodoo, honest. Understanding this stuff could help folk help others avoid the mistake of not defend their inalienable human rights. 😉

      How Cognitive Biases Influence How You Think and Act
      https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-cognitive-bias-2794963

    212. CameronB Brodie says:

      ….not defend(ing), obvs.

      Mitigating Evidentiary Bias in Planning and Policy-Making
      Comment on “Reflective Practice: How the World Bank Explored Its Own Biases?”

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5287925/

    213. auld highlander says:

      So the Black Watch vehicles headed south from Fort George to Salisbury by rail for an exercise.

      Is it a rehearsal for post brexshit?

    214. McDuff says:

      Col b. 7.26
      So a pro union paper talks up Brexit on the basis that some guy says the UK will be better off when we leave the EU.
      And the statement that the UK will have the largest economy by 2050 that’s in 30 years beggers belief.
      The fact that you believe in that crap says more about you than the numpty that wrote the article.

    215. Mac says:

      In response to Mr Johnson’s vision for Britain.

      To Mr Johnson and all the other would be leaders;
      – who change their minds as it suits them,
      – who contradict their previous assurances as easy as blinking,
      – who use ’words and phrases’ given to them by the data / media gurus to appeal to the masses,
      – who are not honest about the real reasons for Brexit…

      I say this. We don’t like your vision for Britain. It stinks.

      https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-news-latest-boris-johnson-vision-for-britain-video-reaction-9062441

      The electorate are tired of your bluff and bluster.

      Our vision is of Constitutional Reform that starts with Westminster, the HOL and the unelected Bishops.

      Our vision is of a Government, “…the people’s government, made for the people, made by the people, and answerable to the people..”

      You and the current Tory cabal (sorry cabinet) don’t even come close. There is no mandate remaining for Brexit. It was eroded by democracy over the last three years. The majority of the electorate do not want it.

      Scotland and NI voted to remain. You are in breach of the democratic will of these people … two of the ’awesome foursome’.. Honestly a ridiculous meme thought up by your SPADs or a TWAT.

      We remember a pound spent in Croydon versus Glasgow, we remember your views of the Scottish.

      And finally, as its all been said before.. We remember the 130,000 people who died during the so unnecessary and vicious austerity programme…

      Now it seems there is ’loads of money’ to bribe your way back to the electorate in time for an election. Well, no… sorry… we are going to give you a bloody nose. Our vision is of a Boris free No10 to start with… and destruction of the right wing tories.

      We all understand the real reason for this desperate attempt to Brexit. It is an instruction from organisations far wealthier and more powerful than you Mr Johnson… and its simply about tax and the ability to hide their wealth. The EU were just getting started on tax evasion and avoidance measures.

      This is going to be a vicious fight for Independence. We need to pick up our game in Scotland.

    216. Terry callachan says:

      I think it’s daft to call Abdulhaq a britnat just because he thinks Nicola Sturgeon isn’t calling a referendum quickly enough.

      Abdulhaq has made good points here on wings
      Not everyone agrees with everyone else

      The field is narrowing
      It’s ok to disagree with Abdulhaq or anyone else but I think it’s wrong to call someone a britnat just because you disagree with them

    217. Cactus says:

      It’s your final countdown most excellent People of Scotland 2019

      https://howmanydaystill.com/its/indy-march-aberdeen-19

      Get yerself up there front and centre

      DO IT for The Dons!

    218. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. ’awesome foursome’. Hulk smash.

      The 17 Cognitive Biases That Explain Brexit
      It’s all in our heads. Unfortunately

      https://medium.com/the-politicalists/the-17-cognitive-biases-that-explain-brexit-894ec10e03b8

    219. Simon Curran says:

      Mac@7.51
      Well put, hit the nail on the head!

    220. Mac says:

      There is something fundamentally wrong with our tacit acceptance that the UK vote can pull Scotland out of the EU without any discussion, agreement, consideration of our Nationhood status or that it is against the democratic will of the majority of the electorate.

      Where is this challenge to Westminster? Where is the threat to them that we will not accept Brexit in any respect? I appreciate that strictly from the legal aspect, it is the UK that is the EU member, not individual countries or individuals…

      But this blatant example of the democratic deficit at least makes the EU referendum immoral, if not illegal, and against the human rights of the residents of Scotland.. and so there is a case to be answered. Kills two birds with one stone. Scotland are being attacked and damaged by their bigger neighbour… this is hegemony… where is the EUJ or United nations on this??

      Where is the anger in Scotland? Are we waiting for it to happen??

      The current cabinet are under a huge pressure from all sides. The Scottish Government should up the ante and start badgering for democracy and to stay in the EU.

      It’s time to start the fight, not wait until the enemy are dismantling your weaponry.

      And it is better to fight now, even if we lost again, there will come another opportunity, although that is likely to be a tougher fight than this one.

      We know this, we are fighting the British Establishment. It’s a powerful organisation. The Scottish Government need to take their gloves off.

      Start by withdrawing the MSPs from Westminster. Westminster doesn’t work for Scotland. We tried it and it laughs at our representatives and manipulates the outcomes in their favour, every time.

      Scotland needs to make much more noise. Time to be the thistle in their side.

    221. Dan says:

      Mac says: at 7:51 pm

      This is going to be a vicious fight for Independence. We need to pick up our game in Scotland.

      Aye, there’s no doubt it will be struggle. It’s just a pity so many folk still seem so unaware of, or disinterested in what is going on and how it will impact them and their families in the future.
      Having re-read what I just typed I should rephrase it as recent events are actually already having an impact now. That being the case it makes it even more frustrating that so many folk still have their heads in the sand.

      This Pete Seeger tune – What Did You Learn in School Today, still seems appropriate for the times…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VucczIg98Gw

      Anyway, that’s the bike prepared and we’re ready for the cruise to Aberdeen AUOB tomorrow.

    222. Col.Blimp IV says:

      McDuff says: @7:47

      “…” -without engaging his brain.

      You really should have clicked on
      CameronB Brodie’s links regarding Cognitive Biases.

    223. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @MorvenM (6.18) –

      I haven’t read the whole article and don’t intend to. Confused (5.44) has done a splendid job of laying out why it should probably be avoided. Thanks to everyone else for their thoughts. (CamB – I wasn’t looking for any dirt on Hassan specifically, just more general thoughts, or links to studies on the actual psychology of these people. 😉 )

      But here’s a link to the tweet from Rev which contained an extract from Hassan’s latest – that was enough for me.

      😉

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1161951988306862081

    224. Cactus says:

      Wings retweet retwingled here:

      Aweright @fankledoose howde ye do…

      https://twitter.com/Fankledoose/status/1162322045797109761

      Ahm ah right in rememberin’ that photy was taken of a house doon the bottom of Glasgow’s Saltmarket, opposite Billy Bilsland Cycles?

      Aye

    225. Mac says:

      I read somewhere about perfect little Saltires specifically to cover the Union Flag on any new Driving Licence. Does anyone know where I can get them?

      And if there are any other opportunities to hide the Union Flag .. let me know.

    226. Cactus says:

      Evenin’ Mac, how ye doin’, Yes Rutherglen and Wings’ Ruglonian should be able to assist you there

      They’ll have em on tomorrow’s march

      Cheers Mac

    227. Cactus says:

      Hey Ruglonian x

      “*Wings stall info*

      Hey folks,

      The Wings stall will be in attendance at the Aberdeen rally this coming Saturday (17/8).

      As far as we know it just now, following the guidance put out by AUOB, we will be in amongst all the other stalls at “the far side of Castlegate nearest the Salvation Army building”.

      You’ll spot us a mile away though with our awesome banners!

      As you all know we aren’t shy in asking folk to roll up their sleeves – the Friends Of Wings stall is a success because everyone pitches in and makes it so.

      If you’re about before the march then come and help us set up, or get in amongst it once the march is over!

      Mr Ronnie Anderson will be holding court as usual, dishing out free abuse if that’s your thing 😉

      There’s a group of us travelling up from Ayrshire and the all over the Central Belt so we expect to see all you NorthEasters out in force to put on a good show for us!!

      If anyone wants to formally register themselves as a volunteer for Aberdeen, or any upcoming events, then leave a message for me on O/T.

      See you Saturday :)”

      Saltires and many other delights may be found at the Wings Over Scotland marquee

    228. Dan says:

      I carry a sheet in my wallet with those wee Saltire stickers.
      Always have it to hand and those wee flags are ideal for removing negative endorsements from a driving license.

    229. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says: 16 August, 2019 at 1:40 pm:

      ” … I can suggest a few titles on elementary logic.”

      Yeah! And I could suggest a few on quantum physics but it doesn’t mean I have read and understood them all.

      ” … You seem wedded to the notion that the we are living in the best of all possible worlds,”

      You do come out with some utterly ridiculous notions, Abulhaq, but that one must indeed take the proverbial biscuit.

      You see it is like this, I’m a realist and God alone knows what you are. That means when I want to say something then what I say is exactly what I mean and I do not go off in flights of fancy talking about universes when what is meant is you are of a different political opinion that the SG/SNP and FM and that, Abulhaq, is exactly the reality. Nothing could be further from the truth than that I slavishly follow the SNP, SG or the FM but I do not attempt to put them down as you do.

      If I have a difference of opinion I deal with it within the party but if I am in the minority, being a believer in democracy, I accept the majority view. That, though, does not mean I do not do my best to change minds – I just do not do so on open forums where the only ones who benefit are the unionists.

      Now speaking of reality – here is another couple of wee bits of it for you – first of all the reality is that since Nicola Sturgeon took over from Alex Salmond the indy movement has gone from losing a referendum by not having enough supporters for independence to now having several indications of having a majority of the people of Scotland AND in the Rest of the United Kingdom. The reality being that the SG/SNP and Nicola Sturgeon are leading us to independence.

      Yet still, on the side-lines shouting abuse at them, are you and those other you claim are of like mind as yourself and the reality is, without doubt, that little band of abuse shouters spend a great deal more comments shouting down the SG/SNP/FM than they do attempting to argue against either the Brexiteers or the unionists.

      I’d bet if we were to go back over Wings comments from the past year or so that you, personally, have commented more against the entire SNP than you have in support of independence.

      Quite frankly you are a sham. Did I mention that I don’t mince my words?

    230. Cactus says:

      Hey Dan, how ye do this evenin’

      Are ye biking it over tae Aberdeen ra morra?

      Burn some of that 2-stroke flavour 🙂

    231. Bobp says:

      Dan.8.53pm. Yes, my wee saltire has covered the Jack since it first came on my driving licence. They dont have it foisted on them in NI, and they ain’t foisting it on me.

    232. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Mac says:

      “Where is the anger in Scotland? Are we waiting for it to happen??”

      I have always had a suspicion of the EU, seeing it more as a tool of Global Capitalism and an enemy of democracy, with any benefits to Joe Public deriving from it being accidental at best but generally smoke and mirrors.

      I voted remain, for no other reason than to help drive a political wedge between Scotland and England.

      I imagined the SNP would be stirring up that anger by now …but no, they are linking arms with the Brits to try and alleviate the “pain” of breaking up a Union.

      While hilariously the branch office Yoons are up in arms about their superiors in Westminster, making decisions which they feel are detrimental to their cause in Scotland.

      Ye coudlnae make it up!

    233. Mac says:

      Cactus & Dan @8:42 & 8:53

      Sadly, I am far from home for the moment, so I won’t be picking up a wee sticker in Aberdeen. 🙂 It can wait.

      Have a great weekend guys. Just remember this… for every one person who marches, there are another 20 who are there in spirit, every time.

    234. Bobp says:

      Hope everyone has a brilliant day in Aberdeen tomorrow, the wife and I made the 2 Glasgow marches, but sadly Aberdeen a longer way from Dorset.

    235. Phil says:

      Ref to Alasdair Angus Macdonald saying:
      15 August, 2019 at 3:11 pm

      Beg to disagree AAM with your analysis below. While Eardley can offer listeners off-centre remarks more in line with what we might think is the BBC opinion-bending attitude this piece to microphone was not so far off just another account of the mindless Brexit funfare. My impression may stem from 24+ hours of story development since Eardley’s original broadcast. But, I will agree that BBC Scotland cannot just be accepted for each and every moment. One must listen and analyse carefully.

      “When I turned the radio on this morning shortly after 7.00am, Good Morning Scotland was on and a very angry man, sounding seriously annoyed, was ranting. It turned out he was horrified by Mr Corbyn’s letter to other parties about collaborating to vote no confidence in the government and that this had referred to the fact that Labour would not oppose a second referendum on Scottish independence. The rant was about ‘betrayal of Scottish Labour’. At one stage, I thought I heard him use the word ‘we’, but I am not certain because the words were pouring out. His anger was being stoked by the interviewer, Gary Robertson, feeding him lines. When this ended, it turned out that the angry man was none other than ‘our Westminster Political Affairs correspondent, Nick Eardley’….”

    236. Bobp says:

      Mac 8.34pm you need to contact the’bonnie badge company ‘ based in oban. They are on Facebook. They do the small saltires to cover the butchers on your driving licence.

    237. MorvenM says:

      I initially misread the quote in the Rev’s twitter feed as coming from George Kerevan rather than Gerry Hassan and was wondering why George would be so nasty! It was a disgraceful thing for Gerry Hassan to say, but similar to the common slur of comparing us to Farage and UKIP.

      But today we’ve got Humza Yousaf in The National (no less) complaining that he doesn’t like the “nationalist connotations” in the SNP’s name!

      There’s a big difference between the nationalism of the ruler and that of the oppressed. Most nationalist movements have been about liberation.

      I’m sick of SNP officials apologizing for us like this instead of defending our values.

    238. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      It’s a long time since I’ve done an ideological analysis of literature and I can think of better sources to deconstruct.

      IDEOLOGY AND LITERATURE
      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312053672_IDEOLOGY_AND_LITERATURE

      However, if he continues with his shite that WOS articulates the alt-right, I might turn my attention towards his musings. It won’t be a comfortable experience for him, I’m almost certain of that.

    239. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Prof. Gerry Hassan
      In case the penny hasn’t dropped yet, I know a bit about stuff. Mind yourself.

      Political practice of literary analysis: how to read
      literature more closely

      https://www.ssoar.info/ssoar/bitstream/handle/document/57407/ssoar-ilshs-2015-49-khaghaninejad-Political_practice_of_literary_analysis.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y&lnkname=ssoar-ilshs-2015-49-khaghaninejad-Political_practice_of_literary_analysis.pdf

    240. carjamtic says:

      Capella @ 5:52 pm

      Well picked up, I posted earlier not in this exact style but PM style (word salad, hopefully for comic effect ?) to highlight the duplicity between the unionist interviewee and the interviewer (particularly on television).

      When I saw the stushie with Mr Hassan I had to visited his blog (don’t go there, it’s shite) to see what he was all about and could not believe a ‘professional’ writer commentator could post such drivel.

      I know we all lenjoy a wee chuckle, it definitely is the best medicine and as has often been said on here, this is not a victimless crime.

      The consequences of this duplicity has always made my blood boil, but it makes me more determined to call it out and mock the individuals concerned, not having a laugh with your mates type friendly slagging, the other total piss taking/satire etc.(although the humour can fall flat or even cause offence, it has alway’s been the best way to make a relevant point).

      And as they say in comedy timing is everything, but it keeps my blood pressure down.

      Excellent posts on here all day answers/explains what’s really going on,cheers.

      Wee smiley thing

    241. Dr Jim says:

      Good evening this is the *news*

      There has been *speculation*

      Something must be done about the *calls* for something to be done about the *speculation*, let’s bring on an *expert* ex SNP employee who was sacked as an adviser to gossip about these speculative calls so that we can understand the *facts* of the speculation

      This is what passes for *news* in Scotland now, about the same standard as celebrities doing nothing programmes

      People pay a tax for this and don’t realise most of what they’re watching is invention by the media because they’re either too lazy or too biased to do actual journalism

      Remember, every time the news media bring on an *expert* to discuss something the media invented, the *expert* gets paid with your money to gossip about the facts of the invented speculation

      A nice little earner and you pay for it

    242. Cactus says:

      THIS is the reason why we March peacefully all over Scotland 2019

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t1IK_9apWs

      It’s about a different country

      Wae the same message

      Name the day

      X

    243. Dan says:

      I am indeed biking up to Aberdeen AUOB with some other YES Bikers.
      Our group will be taking a scenic route through the glens and making our Indy-minded presence known as we travel through some rather well to do areas.
      Is it appropriate to drop in for a cuppa at Balmoral? She is the Queen of Scots so I presume she’d be chuffed to fuck seeing us all wi’ oor Saltires.

      A flag pole extension system has been created this afternoon. Small flag for the main journey, then an extension allows the addition of the big flag for the slow cruise through town.
      The Castrol R vial is filled and ready.

    244. Ruglonian says:

      O/T
      *Wings stall info – Final warning :D*

      Hey folks,
      The Wings stall will be in attendance at the Aberdeen rally this coming Saturday (17/8).

      As far as we know it just now, following the guidance put out by AUOB, we will be in amongst all the other stalls at “the far side of Castlegate nearest the Salvation Army building”.
      You’ll spot us a mile away though with our awesome banners!

      As you all know we aren’t shy in asking folk to roll up their sleeves – the Friends Of Wings stall is a success because everyone pitches in and makes it so.
      If you’re about before the march then come and help us set up, or get in amongst it once the march is over!
      Mr Ronnie Anderson will be holding court as usual, dishing out free abuse if that’s your thing 😉

      There’s a group of us travelling up from Ayrshire and the all over the Central Belt so we expect to see all you NorthEasters out in force to put on a good show for us!!

      If anyone wants to formally register themselves as a volunteer for Aberdeen, or any upcoming events, then leave a message for me on O/T.
      See you Saturday 🙂

    245. Cactus says:

      The Castrol R it is, aye the fucking yummy taste of the fuckin’ fumes aye, this one’s for you an yer Wingmen bud

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKjxNqPxg1A

      Will PLAY this song for ye’s on the radio ra morra

    246. Hamish100 says:

      BBC Radio 4 – the World Tonight- the Scottish NATIONALIST Party supports…
      It is clear the BBC is being directed by the invisible hand of the state.

    247. Bobp says:

      Ottomanboi 1.17pm. That swedish site about ” Scots being proud of being British is the equivalent of being proud to be a faizart*
      *DSL castrated fowl, coward,weakling ”
      Surprised no one here commented on that, and yes it doesn’t fill a real Scot with pride. But you never know, one day the other half of Scotland might find the courage to get up off their knees.

    248. Cactus says:

      Let’s do THIS tomorrow Aberdeen of Summer ’19

      Let’s make the headlines for all the right reasons

      Let’s…

    249. Cactus says:

      Pretend you’re NOT in an unfair union with the Kingdom of England

      We are the Kingdom of Scotland

      We are unique

    250. Cactus says:

      Have y’all had a look outside and upwards this evening…

      https://moonphases.co.uk/

      The 11th oor

    251. Dan says:

      Cheers Cactus. Hoping we get weather like in that vid so we can enjoy the ride and scenery.
      If it pishes doon it’s not so fun on a bike.
      Either way we’ll endeavour to have a braw day.

      As Mac mentions @ 9.03pm those that can’t make it for one way or another. I certainly do acknowledge that fact and so wish they could be with us and experience both the journeys across Scotland and the marches, to see firsthand the huge scale and diversity of scenery and land Scotland has, plus the excellent vibe the marches themselves offer.

      Scotland certainly is Big Enough, Rich Enough, and we’re currently working on the Smart Enough…
      But there is also another aspect. That being we are also generally Friendly Enough as a people to welcome folk with our outward looking manner.
      This trait Scotland has is just yet another thing which is unfortunately being tarnished by the insular and xenophobic direction we are getting dragged in by being stuck in this unequal union.

    252. Liz g says:

      Can all our friends from up in Aberdeen arrange to have The Northern Light’s switched on tomorrow night …. Thanks….

    253. Phronesis says:

      The story of Brexit, the story of the decline of the British state and the story of Scotland’s destiny as an independent nation state. The push to overhaul an outdated treaty and a political union that has atrophied and had to work harder to cheat, lie and deceive about the balance of power and Scotland’s economic worth will be realised with an independent Scotland.

      ‘The story of how we got here is a story of untold wealth hidden around the globe, and of a small number of unimaginably wealthy people — many of whom are authoritarian leaders who have perfected the art of enriching themselves at the expense of their people — gaming the international system to protect that wealth.

      To understand the ways corrupt elites around the world have been exploiting this dark side of globalization, and the corrosive impact of that exploitation on democracies, the first thing you have to understand is the global network of financial secrecy enabling it
      A lack of democratic checks and balances or rule of law allows authoritarians to get away with robbing their people, but it also ensures that illicit wealth is unlikely to be safe at home. So, today’s kleptocrats hide their stolen money overseas, stored away in places where it can be protected by norms that don’t exist in their own countries…It’s time to close the loopholes fueling global corruption. It’s time to rewrite the old rules for a new age. Ultimately, if a 20th-century system no longer works for the 21st century, we must push to overhaul it’

      https://medium.com/s/story/unraveling-the-global-web-of-corruption-thats-destroying-democracy-cd87f69ff6e2

      ‘The territories marked in Dark Blue are Overseas Territories (OTs) and Crown Dependencies (CDs) of the United Kingdom where the Britsh Queen is head of state; powers to appoint key government officials rest with the British Crown; laws must be approved in London; and the UK government holds various other powers (see here for more details). Territories marked in light blue are British Commonwealth territories which are not OTs or CDs but whose final court of appeal is the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in London (see here for more details).

      To compute a CTHI for the entire group of OTs and CDs (or also including the UK), we first need to calculate the group’s joint Haven Score and joint Global Scale Weight. Calculating the joint Global Scale Weight is straightforward – we just sum up each jurisdiction’s individual Global Scale Weight to arrive at 13.8% (or 6.5% excluding the UK). To combine the Haven Scores, we see at least three relevant options. All of them result in the UK and its satellite network of corporate tax havens to top the CTHI by a large margin (read more in Section 4.3 in: here)’

      https://corporatetaxhavenindex.org/introduction/cthi-2019-results

    254. Lenny Hartley says:

      Wishing all the loons and quines a good day in Aberdeen tomorrow, sadly wont make it but will be at the SNP Conference in October. Like Aberdeen spent thirty odd years there in a previos life.
      So hello to all my Aberdeen North SNP mates attending the March tomorrow, see you in October.

    255. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Looking forward to seeing some wingers in Aberdeen tomorrow lets give them a good show.

    256. Capella says:

      A fascinating collection of press articles from 1760 on Scottish press. e.g.

      Our neighbours keep their people at home to defend their country, to protect their families, to rear their children, and beget more, for the preservation of the state; whilst ours are dispersed like the leaves in autumn, never to be gathered again; and the tree from which they have fallen, is not only shattered at top, it is cut at the root, and we want hands to assist our women in tilling the ground, or in propagating the race of labourers among us.

      From the Random Scottish History site.

      https://twitter.com/FlikeNoir/status/1162527598330691584?s=20

    257. Dorothy Devine says:

      Have a great day in Aberdeen , sun is shining at the moment in Glasgow and my Norwegians say it will be sunny/showery in Aberdeen so saltire brollies at the ready.

    258. Ottomanboi says:

      @Bobp 10:23pm
      Scotland’s cultural and ethnic footprint on the world is significant. The British so-called supra ethnicity is a confusing extra layer of nationality which most people on this planet simply read as English. Unionism has been an effective airbrush. It is not authentic.

    259. Robert Louis says:

      I have just been reading some of the FM’s comments this week at the fringe, in relation to finding an alterantive route to holding a referendum, since Westminster has repeatedly many, many times said they won’t do the section 30 route. And her comments are just utterly soul destroying.

      In relation to Angus McNeils plan B, the report said;

      ‘on Thursday, the FM was asked why she would not push ahead with a vote without Westminster permission. She said she wanted to ensure the vote was recognised by the UK and the international community to make sure Scotland did become independent.’.

      She also reportedly said;

      “Why should I be talking about the alternatives to doing it the right way? It’s the people who are trying to block it from doing it the right way who should be under pressure,”

      Source :https://www.thenational.scot/news/17843110.carol-monaghan-fourth-snp-mp-support-indy-plan-b/

      So, let me say, if this is a fair and true representation of what she said, then I am awfully sorry, but Nicola Sturgeon needs replced as SNP leader. Her so-called ‘logic’ on this, is utter mince.

      The very idea, that by being nice and repeatedly telling Westminster they are being ‘undemocratic’ they are somehow going to change their minds and help set up an independence referendum, is beyond stupidity. Indeed, to state such a things displays childish naivety about how Westminster operates. Toires and Labour must be laughing their socks off.

      But their is more to it than that. By opnely declaring such a thing, she makes it clear to Westminster that ALL they need to do, is just keep on refusing a section 30. Why would they change? does Nicola think people like Boris Johnson have some kind of ‘moral compass’?? Really???

      Not only that, but by making such a statement, she gives credence to the utterly absurd notion that Scotland needs ‘permission’ from England, to become independent, and it really, really doesn’t. No country got independence by waiting for somebody to give it ‘permission’. And as for international recognition, all that is required is a full democratic vote, we don’t also need England’s permission.

      So, that is why I now wholly believe she MUST go, and soon. The SNP needs a leader who will do anything and everything to gain independence. This oh so nice, approach will NEVER work with Westminster. But I now think that is EXACTLY why Nicola Sturgeon is taking that approach. She will know it won’t work. The whole world knows it won’t work. Scotland has a golden opportunity to go for independence RIGHT NOW, and she is talking about permission. Unreal.

      Scotland is about to be dragged out of the EU against its wishes, and she still thinks Westminster listens to her, or indeed gives a flying f*** about what she thinks. This is not the time for sitting waiting, it is the time for action.

      She either needs to sniff the coffee, and wake up to remember WHY people voted for her and her party, or move over. Independence, independence, independence. The rest is irrelevant.

      Oh, and on another matter, I see folk still stating she has promised a referendum before 2021 elections. She hasn’t. All her statements have been couched in words such as ‘I would like to see’, or ‘their should be’, or ‘it would be best if’. I have not seen one single statement from her, saying we WILL hold indyref before 2021 elections. Indeed, if she realistically planned to do so, why hasn’t she started indyref2 campaign in earnest?

      I might re-join the SNP just to ensure I can help pass the Mcneil Mceleney amendment, at conference. If she doesn’t like it, she should move over, and let somebody in who actually WANTS independence to happen, BEFORE we leave the EU against our wishes.

    260. Cactus says:

      Hello and morning, it’s the 17th, it’s gig day!

      Enjoy your break Mr CC

      It’s Saturday 🙂

    261. Abulhaq says:

      This is another distraction we might do without.
      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17842784.yousaf-struggles-snp-name-connotations-nationalism/
      It was nationalism that freed the small countries of Europe from the empires to which they belonged.
      It was nationalism that broke up the British empire.
      The current smearing of nationalism on the basis of trends in right wing politics in the US and England as racist, supremacist etc is a stinking ideological red herring designed to damage the ‘small nation’ independence struggles of which Scotland is a part.
      Yousaf and Sturgeon would do well to read less stuff churned out by the Brit establishment anti-independence propaganda machine and study some ‘liberation’ history.
      Scottish nationalism is good, let us have more of it.

    262. Robert Louis says:

      Abulhaq at 0850am,

      Totally agreed. People like NS and Humza should be standing up for the name of the party and what it ACTUALLY means, not coming out with rubbish like that. Do we see Tories or Labour bemoaning their party name?? No.

      The SNP, fiddling, while Scotland burns.

    263. doug_bryce says:

      I would quite like the Scottish (inter)National Party.

      Restore Scotlands place in the world

    264. Robert Louis says:

      No matter what, we can of course safely assume that Nicola Sturgeon will not be at the indy march in Aberdeen today. I guess she will make it to Pride Glasgow though.

      It’s all about priorities.

    265. galamcennalath says:

      Boris Johnson set to meet Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron.

      I wonder which of his many personas he will adopt?

      Certainly the bumbling posh boy idiot character he uses for UK politics won’t impress at all.

      He might try the serial seducer on Angela, but I doubt he she will be taking by his alleged charms? And why not try it on with Emmanuel? Anything in the name of English liberty!

      Or does Boris Johnson have a serious side we never see in public? Will it be the ‘Al’ his friends and family know who turns up?

    266. Giving Goose says:

      Robert Louis

      The Yes movement is a grass roots movement.
      Sometimes you don’t need politicians to make a point.
      A politician free march adds more legitimacy in my opinion.

    267. Capella says:

      Looking forward to seeing everyone who can make it to the Aberdeen march today. Will look for the Wings tent for some cheek from ronnie anderson without which a march would not be worthwhile.

    268. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says: 17 August, 2019 at 8:50 am:

      ” This is another distraction we might do without.”

      Aye, Abulhag, your contributions most certainly are distractions we could do without. Such distractions will only lead to such atrocities as you can read about in Ben Madigan’s comments elsewhere on this very thread.

      The British/English state has a very long history of violent methods of suppression against what Britain calls insurrection and in yesterday’s news we read, view and hear that several Scottish regiments carried out, “An exercise”, whereby the British/English troops in Scotland massed at a Highland rail terminal and loaded themselves, and their armoured vehicles, onto a train bound for England.

      No doubt there will also be British/English troops in England also doing the same in the opposite direction and entraining bound for Scotland.

      Will you, Abulhaq, be in the front rank when the people of Scotland attempt to defend their country from the Westminster Establishment attacks now being openly planned by Westminster – or will you be, as usual, sitting at a computer somewhere urging others to stand against the British/English troops?

    269. Ken500 says:

      Lovely day for marching. Sun is shining. Thanks to Mr Singh and the AUOB organisers.

      Nicola and Co are doing a good job. Alex will be back. Everything to look forward. The demographics are changing.

      Join the SNP. Donate and campaign. Do everything people can manage. Do not leave it to someone else.

      Campaign to change the voting system. Corrupted by Evans and the unionists illegally without a mandate. First preference votes go in the bin, to let 3rd rate losers in. The voters do not understand it. Neither does anyone else. People have to vote for candidates and parties they cannot stand to get their candidate in. Even then it does not work. One person, one vote should be the criteria.

    270. Ken500 says:

      The Scottish National Party gets described as the Scottish Nationalist Party. Changes the connotation. It can be annoying. Always having to be corrected.

    271. Ken500 says:

      Nicola has two hats to wear. Leader of the Party and the Gov. Impartial. There is a code of conduct to follow. Many other SNP politicians/reps will be there as usual. Branch members etc.

    272. Ken500 says:

      Labour politicians have said they will agree another IndyRef. There is nothing wrong in waiting for support being higher. The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. A GE then an IndyRef. One campaign at a time. The Tories could not make a bigger mess. A complete and utter shambles. They will be gone before long. Johnston will not last until October. What a waste of time and money. The Brexit catastrophe.

    273. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Scottish NATIONAL Party is fine. And entirely accurate.
      What is stupid is anyone engaging in Unionist diversionary argument about it.
      Just givng them oxygen.

      It is very important (and fully understood by all intelligent people) that the SNP is not seen to be taking over the wider YES movement. There are of course many SNP MPs and MSPs and other prominent figures marching quietly among the other marchers on these marches.

    274. Clydebuilt says:

      Robert Louis at 8.29

      The FM gave an answer to sect 30 that avoided her telling the world her plans. Its plainly obvious she wants to keep our enemies guessing.

    275. jfngw says:

      Interesting that James Kelly (blogger not MSP) is telling us to not try and ‘game’ the system by voting for a Wings party, it’s simply not cricket. But unionist are forever gaming the system as can be seen at the last GE when seats were targeted for particular parties to oust the SNP, the council STV system is often gamed by them to keep out the SNP which regularly wins first preference vote but not the seat. Local councillors from unionist parties across Scotland work together to ensure the SNP don’t lead the council.

      I can add I dislike the STV system in by-elections as it seems to effectively give some multiple votes, and you can end up with the person who was third or fourth in in the first preference vote ending up with the seat.

      Why should I not use my vote intelligently to achieve what I want, the Tories do it all the time. If you can ‘game’ the system then it is the system that is at fault, not the voter.

    276. Luigi says:

      Morning Folks. It’s a new day and the sun is shining up here in Bonnie Aberdeen. Get yerselves up here. Hope to see a few if ye this afternoon. 🙂

    277. Effijy says:

      Read Jolly Hockey Sticks Swinson letter to Corbyn.
      Just how delusional can that woman be?
      She now wants to pick the leader of the Labour Party,
      The Conservative Party, and the next Prime Minister???

      She must still be working on who she wants to lead the EU?
      She’ll get it once she sees herself in the mirror.

      She would never make Love Island but Fantasy Island has
      A palatial mansion waiting for her? lol

    278. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 17 August, 2019 at 9:01 am
      @Abulhaq at 0850am,

      ” … Totally agreed. People like NS and Humza should be standing up for the name of the party … “.

      Indeed so, but, in actual fact the name of the party is, “The Scottish national party. It is NOT The Scottish NATIONALIST Party.

      ” … and what it ACTUALLY means, “ and the last time I looked, Robert Louis, the word NATIONAL meant:-

      “relating to or characteristic of a nation; common to a whole nation.

      – I’ll leave you to look up what, “Nationalist”, means for yourself.

      … not coming out with rubbish like that.

      I’ll also leave you to look up the term, “Rubbish”, for yourself but will remind you that in many cases, even in very rich nations, one person’s rubbish is another person’s livelihood.

      … Do we see Tories or Labour bemoaning their party name??”

      Bloody hilarious, Robert Louis, only such as you could hold up the Labour and Tory party of shining examples of how the Scottish NATIONAL Party should behave.

      Let’s get this right, shall we? The FM of the Scottish Parliament is elected to that post by the whole Holyrood Parliament and that person’s job is to represent the entire electorate, not just the ones who elected her as an MSP.

      So a First Minister who, in this case, is also elected by the members of the political party she belongs to as leader of that political party, has two jobs. The first is to represent all Scots no matter if they voted for her/him or did not vote for her/him. Secondly the FM represents all parties at Holyrood whether the MSPs voted for her/him or not and thirdly the FM represents the entire population of Scotland whether they voted for her/hin or not and in this case it even includes those not yet enfranchised to vote.

      So , Robert Louis, in this instance, it is you who is talking, “rubbish”. In any case it is simply a matter of opinion for no one yet knows what will be the best route to gain independence.

      Let me quote you a couple of examples. Southern Ireland fought a bloody war they could never win but only gained their independence when they unilaterally declared that, “The Irish Free State”, was an independent republic. (The Irish Free State was a UK dominion).

      India:-

      India won independence from Britain in 1947, thanks in large part to Gandhi’s peaceful civil disobedience campaign.

      Yet here are the cold hard facts. Ireland is still not yet again a free united country and the bloodshed in Ireland has not yet stopped.

      India was also partitioned along mainly religious lines and just this month the sectarianism in what had been India has flared up again.

      So which form of long term bloodshed is it you are calling the FM/SG/SNP to adopt?

      Now here’s a fact – neither India nor Ireland are in the same situation as is Scotland within the United Kingdom. Legally the United Kingdom is composed of only two kingdoms in a legal union. There is a Treaty of Union that can prove that point. No other state that was forced to be part of the now defunct British Empire has had that legal status so that means there are no other cases to compare Scotland’s case for independence with.

      Why then even think about taking an internationally recognised illegal route to independence? The facts are plainly stark. Since the current FM came to office she has followed all the rules and we are now closer than ever before to internationally recognisable legal independence.

    279. starlaw says:

      Labour have NOT said that they would allow another indy vote, The word SHOULD have another vote was used, Would and Should are poles apart. Corbyn has committed to nothing.

    280. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 17 August, 2019 at 9:10 am:

      ” … It’s all about priorities.”

      Indeed it is, Robert Louis. Thing is, just whose priorities take precedence – your priorities or everyone else’s?

    281. Terry callachan says:

      When you read this you realise that if only we had tv radio camera footage social media etc in the years following 1707 we would now be able to see the same horror inflicted on Scotland and its people as has been inflicted on Ireland and other countries around the world.

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2019/08/17/disunited-kingdom-flounders-england-the-cruel-state/

      It was easy for england to erase the historical reality of soldiers they sent around Scotland with the permission of a small number of wealthy Scots who voted for the union those soldiers would have carried out their duties in the same way probably worse than we have seen in Ireland .

      I hate Britain , UK , Westminster, House of Lords and all they stand for.

    282. Robert Peffers says:

      @Giving Goose says:17 August, 2019 at 9:33 am:

      @Robert Louis
      ” … The Yes movement is a grass roots movement.
      Sometimes you don’t need politicians to make a point.
      A politician free march adds more legitimacy in my opinion.”

      Ah! Yes, Giving Goose, that’s rather a sensible and reasoned opinion but you must understand people like Abulhaq and Robert Louis do not recognise any other opinions than their own.

      Then there is always the lingering suspicion their opinions may have a hidden and dark motive they don’t want you to realise or consider.

      ” … Yond Cassius Robert Louis has a lean and hungry look, He thinks too much; such men are dangerous.”

      Apologies to William Shakespeare.

      Julius Caesar Act 1, scene 2, 190–195

    283. James F. McIntosh says:

      Independence seems like climbing a mountain always getting nearer to the top but always another false ridge to climb. Mr.Blackford said Scotland would not be taken out of EU against its will so expecting the SNP to respect that promise.

    284. jfngw says:

      Here is an example of what is wrong with the list system. Here are the Tory votes as percentages for Glasgow in each constituency. Annie Wells is bottom of the poll but ends up as an MSP, these selections need to be chosen by the voters not the party. Sorry to use the Tories but they were a perfect example.

      Kyle Thornton——–14.7%
      Adam Tompkins—–14.0%
      Thomas Kerr———12.4%
      Graham Hutchison–12.4%
      Sheila Mechan——-11.8%
      Taylor Muir————11.3%
      John Anderson———9.8%
      Thomas Haddow——9.5%
      Annie Wells————-8.6%

    285. McBoxheid says:

      Capella says:
      16 August, 2019 at 1:27 pm

      Gerry Hassan was one of their favourite go-to pundits to spout absolute unintelligible rubbish.

      The answer is probably a six letter word starting with L and ending with r.
      ___________________________________
      A word with so many meanings, Capella. Do you mean; The scaffolding plank, the ledger, the simply supported plank over a stream used as a footbridge, the nether millstone, the coverlet, the pike fishing float. I can’t imagine you using the “Lithuanian” description, but there is also a gatecrasher, or from the Anglo Saxon to lie down.

      A gatecrashing unionist support plank, used as bait that lies down and is walked all over seems quite apt. His ilk are indeed a millstone around the neck of Scottish independence.

    286. galamcennalath says:

      In some ways it’s the ‘Scottish’ bit of the SNP which is superfluous. National already denote ‘of the Nation’. What other nation/country could it be?

      Other countries have a National Party. They don’t prefix anything like NZ National Party, no, it’s simply the National Party.

      Scottish NationalIST Party, bevoted of BritNats, is trying to do two things IMO.

      Firstly use the label nationalist which across the rest of Europe comes with nasty connotations. That is fact.

      Secondly, it allows the BritNats to label us as not representing the nation of Scotland. They claim to represent Scotland, in a Union. It downplays the nation / country aspect because their nation/ country is their UK.

      Nationalist and national are totally different words and meanings. And it’s the differences BritNats are out to capitalise on.

    287. Breeks says:

      Sorry troops. Can’t make it to Aberdeen. Wave a flag for me, and on the way, keep your eyes peeled for any eagles in chains… Somewhere out there there’s a poor creature in a terrible way.

      With regards to Angus MacNeil and Chris McEleny’s Indy Plan B being discussed at the SNP Conference, does anybody know if there is anybody even more radical actually promoting a Constitutional red line being drawn around Scottish Sovereignty?

      I am perplexed that after 70 years of campaigning, the SNP has developed such tunnel vision that it refuses to contemplate defeating Westminster’s colonial subjugation by any other means besides “gold standard” democracy. What about our “impeccable” Constitutional Sovereignty? Doesn’t that trump ‘mere’ gold standard democracy?

      Perhaps Brexit will not happen at the end of October, but it is arguable whether the act of colonial subjugation already has. We’ve been excluded from negotiations and told that we will comply. I believe we have the “self-defence” prerogative well due..

      Ok, Article 50 might be extended, but even with a General Election to break the deadlock, there is no guarantee that Europe won’t simply let the October deadline expire and deal with any “new” UK Government that is already in crisis outside in the cold, and is suitably “motivated” to give Europe it’s undivided attention. Europe is as heartily sick of Brexit as we are.

      Article 50 might be revoked, (ok, by whom?) leaving Brexit undone by a Scottish initiative which championed the sovereign prerogative of the UK Parliament, but wouldn’t go the extra step to clarify Scotland’s own sovereign prerogative. Just imagine where we’d be standing now if we had.. Imagine too the instability down South if their Brexit is killed off…

      Option 3, the UK will remain paralysed by it’s intractable incompetence, and default to a No Deal Brexit by simple virtue of time running out and a bunch of squabbling egotistical narcissists failing to come to a compromise. How scarily credible is that?

      So that’s extension, revocation, or default hard exit in 74 days time. Doesn’t it strike you as CRITICAL that the Scottish Government immediately adopts a much more radical and hard line approach to the sanctity of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty??? The Sovereignty of the Scottish Electorate will NOT be subjugated and will NOT suffer the colonial imposition of Brexit to be suffered upon its people.

      Ian Blackford articulates the words, and thank heavens he does, because without Ian there’d be stony silence on the matter. Yet for all Ian says, nowhere is the actual machinery of Constitutional challenge stirring. There are no emergency appeals en route to either the UN or the EU to recognise the status, legitimacy and imperilment of the Scottish Nation. 74 days seems time enough, but the SNP Conference is just two weeks before a default Hard No Deal Brexit. Cutting it fine? I’ll say… More likely, it isn’t happening, is it?

      If it is our intention to defend the constitutional principle of Scottish Sovereignty, we are leaving it mighty late in the day to start.

      Far from “maybe” discussing Angus and his Plan B idea, I’d have shelved the summer recess, I’d have brought forward the Party Conference, or even sponsored an extraordinary Emergency Summit to discuss Scotland’s predicament with a delegation from the UN, and the same thing for a delegation from Europe.

      Don’t forget, if you do have legitimate concerns about England’s fate, (and I genuinely do), last minute salvation might be secured by a General Election, if Europe is prepared to extent Article 50 and talk with a new administration which is prepared to endorse the Withdrawal Agreement. But think on this, – if the UK ceases to exist, then the UK / EU Withdrawal Agreement will be void anyway, and England will be ASSURED of another chance to sober up and think about it’s priorities in new discussions for a new Withdrawal Agreement. Theresa’s deal with Barnier will be obsolete, and it sees inconceivable that new negotiations would not be undertaken.

      Scotland NEEDS this constitutional red line, not more inane prevarication and kicking the can down the road. I hope you’re listening Angus. I hope you’re listing too Joanna Cherry. It might be the most important resolution to be discussed in the history of party resolutions ever discussed at any Party Conference.

      Scotland needs a constitutional red line to be urgently recognised by Global / European Authority. What is that, if not the very same thing is exact essence as the 1320 letter to the Pope written by Bernard of Kilwinning, then Chancellor of Scotland and Abbot of Arbroath, and sealed by fifty-one magnates and nobles, which came to be known as The Declaration of Arbroath? They didn’t seek “forever” utility mandates. They sought International recognition in law and got it.

      Kinda makes you wonder whether the SNP would have written that letter…

    288. Kennedy says:

      Where does the Aberdeen march start? Albyn or Castlegate?

    289. Robert Peffers says:

      @James F. McIntosh says: 17 August, 2019 at 11:17 am:

      … Independence seems like climbing a mountain always getting nearer to the top but always another false ridge to climb. Mr.Blackford said Scotland would not be taken out of EU against its will so expecting the SNP to respect that promise.”

      You are correct, James, Mr Blackford most certainly gives the impression he knows exactly what he is doing and perhaps he knows something that we do not know. He speaks with such great certainty. Perhaps his real message is aimed at us and not at the Westminster Establishment.

    290. Terry callachan says:

      England have split the Populus of every country it invaded usually using religion to do it.
      Ireland, Scotland we know about but recent events in Kashmir evolved from the same source England colonised India and when they lost control of India their parting gift was to sell a chunk of Kashmir to a local rich guy who was a different religion to the huge majority of people that lived there, the result was predictable much like Northern Ireland.

      Pakistan evolved from the same source too until then Muslims and Hindu etc lived together in India but England encouraged religious partition Bangladesh too on the east of India Bengal area.

      England offered help to Pakistan in setting up its new country, the alterior motive was OIL ,they set up ports and harbours on the Pakistan coast pretending it was to import goods to Pakistan to help its new economy but all the while they wanted to be close to Arabia just 500 miles away because of OIL ,their was unrest spreading across the Arab countries especially Aden and Palestine where England had been ensconced for decades , Pakistan was a new base for England close to the OIL
      Aden of course is now called Yemen , it went through the same hurt as Ireland India Scotland and the rest, England tried its best to cause religious unrest everywhere it went and is still using the same old trick to this day, the sad thing is IT WORKS

    291. Colin Alexander says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      I see The National reports that Carol Monaghan SNP MP has also given her support the the Plan B motion for the SNP conference. I know Carol. She gave up a good career and has sacrificed time she could have spent with her family, to become an MP, to fight for Scotland’s independence from this rotten Union.

      I know she sincerely believes, if the people of Scotland are making the democratic, political and economic decisions for Scotland it will make Scotland a better country for the children of Scotland (and adults too).

      The UK Govt and colonialists keep shifting the goalposts as it suits them. They play a rigged game where they change the rules as it suits them. E.g. ripping up the 20 years old devolution settlement in the EU Withdrawal Bill and making unlawful the Scottish Parliament’s Continuity Bill, despite The Vow that was supposed to deliver Home Rule / Devo-Max and guaranteed EU Membership if Scotland voted No etc etc.

      Whilst, I don’t support Plan B in its current form, I believe the SNP must decide it must be more flexible in its plans, regarding timescale and how the mandate for independence is established.

      If we play by Colonial rules, we severely limit the ability to win.

      If the SNP stick with fixed plans to achieve the indy mandate via the (devolution) Scottish Parliament holding an indyref in Autumn 2020, they will be outflanked by a ruthless and sleekit UK Govt, whether that’s a Labour, Tory or coalition one.

    292. call me dave says:

      @galamcennalath says:

      17 August, 2019 at 9:27 am
      Boris Johnson set to meet Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron.
      ————————————————————–
      I’m sure you seen this referred to but I can’t find a sign of this on the platforms I’ve looked at. Any link?

      Mind you, Boris will probably have to go to the mountain at some point before the end. 🙂

    293. Jack Murphy says:

      Independence Live is planning to Stream

      today’s ABERDEEN MARCH AND RALLY FOR INDEPENDENCE

      Stream planned to begin 12:30 pm approx.

      A link:
      https://tinyurl.com/y4uryakt

    294. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Colin Alexander at 11.42

      If you for one minute imagine that Nicola Sturgeon does not have a number of options fully understood then you have no understanding of Nicola Sturgeon. She is considerably more astute than most.

      As she plays the nice lassie (as she is).

      Carol Monaghan may well be a fine person.I don’t know her.
      She is inadvertently undermining the very strong and strengthening position Nicola’s shrewdness has delivered us on another referendum.

    295. RobertTheTruth says:

      @Robert Peffers

      You constantly opine as to others motives, however yours are completely clear:

      To keep the SNP in power no matter what. Independence does not matter to you anymore, you boast of a life of servitude to a party that ignores the electorate who gave it a mandate to leave. It is desperate and every one can see through it now.

      No doubt you will use your life experiences to draw sympathy again but living to an elderly age and having health problems does not give you any more credibility than anyone else. It is a tactic you use to retreat into when you are called out on your mistakes and lies.

      The SNP are the now the party of preventing Brexit and have no mandate from anyone to do what they are doing.

      It suits you to keep telling people they must listen to their masters – in this case the SNP – and that they know best. They should ignore their instincts and doubts and follow the people who supposedly know more than them. Listen to people like Mhairi Black or Jim Sillars? They are your people too.

      This deference to authority is cringe worthy. You are no better than the servile Yoons you claim to despise.

      The people are sovereign, my arse! In your world the SNP are sovereign and the people must listen to them.

    296. Clapper57 says:

      @ Effijy @ 10.22

      Hi Effijy….I wonder if she is waiting for someone to suggest that SHE should be the caretaker PM …after all HER party, according to HER, is THE MOST REMAIN party of all.

      She has now planted the seed and given Remain Tories the means to opt out of this new Remain alliance suggestion by Corbyn and thus allow them to publicly announce they do NOT want Corbyn as caretaker PM…Oliver Letwin has jumped onto this and has now said he will NOT support Corbyn as temp PM.

      What a great strategist she is….NOT…she could have helped by backing these very Remain Tories into a corner by her supporting Corbyn’s suggestion…but No…her blue credentials override her supposed passion for remaining in EU.

      We all know she is a fraud, an opportunist, a careerist and very much leads a party who are anything BUT Liberal or Democrats…the fact that she has now backpedaled a fraction is solely down to the backlash she has now received from her newly gained,but undeserved, ardent Remain supporters….supporters who want to REMAIN in the EU MORE than they actually want to support the Lib Dems as their chosen party to vote for…..BUT desperate times calls for desperate party political choices.

      I love the fact that she is five minutes in the job and already f**king it up….it seems to me that her red lines and inability to compromise proves that clearly there is, as usual with Lib Dems, an agenda behind her and her party’s support for Remain…but it also proves SHE is NOT the one to lead the Remain side….our friends in the South will soon find out the perils of supporting the Lib Dems…they, the voters, have conveniently forgotten their , the Lib Dems, past record but if anyone will show them, the voters, the errors of their misplaced support for Jo and her party it will inevitably be the Lib Dems themselves………crash and burn….us Scots know that only too well… do we not.

      BTW Jo Swinson I am in a REAL not FAKE Remain alliance…REMAIN in the EU but LEAVE the UK….my alliance has more credence and logic than yours….another thing you and your party fail to compromise on and insist on imposing red lines upon….plus ca change.

    297. Thepnr says:

      The desperadoes all singing from the same hymn sheet again I see. Pretendy nationalists with just the one tune, SNP are useless, Sturgeon is useless, eh want a referendum now!!!

      BAWL, WAIL, GREET. WE’RE AH DOOMED! DOOMED I TELL YA!

      Utterly pathetic from the usual suspects, what’s new?

    298. Colin Alexander says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      Well, we’ll see what’s said and decided. Flexibility and adaptability is important. Replacing or adding one rigid plan to another would be foolish.

    299. Colin Alexander says:

      People, can we try to avoid personal attacks? Play the ba’ no the man. It’s nice to be nice etc.

      Make wings btl a place where opinions can be respectfully shared and debated (by new contributors/ undecideds/ potential YES voters especially), without fear of being insulted or personally criticised.

    300. Thepnr says:

      @Colin Alexander

      What? No personal criticism allowed? Do you think you’re still at Nursery School?

    301. donnywho says:

      Look i for one want a referendum NOW! Have done since the EU vote.

      Was delighted that there are three mandates for Indy!

      Each week that has gone by has been torture, can we just not get on with it!

      But here is the thing, all that waiting has delivered the first actual majority for independance, even the Unionist supporters expect and support a new vote (scots tories being the one exeption.

      I hate this standing around it gnaws at my soul, fustration feeds a growing sense of anger with the current Westminster and British ruling caste. Some of that angst spills over to the SNP and their softly, softly, approach.

      Then i look back and think what might have happened if we had gone of couple of years ago. I think what they have achieved “below the radar”, and you have to admit it is impressive.

      Spain activly stating they will not block us. The EU saying we would be at rhe top of the queue with no intergration issues. this is remarkable considering that they will not interfer with members states internal affairs. The acceptance of Scots sovereignty. Gaining control of the election system. Endless foriegn trips to build trade and influence. And much more that i can list and probably more that has been “gamed”.

      In short I still feel the fustration but looking back I think I was and maybe still am, wrong.

      What is important is that it is flowing in our direction, even when we have the whole aparatus of the State and Media in full war mode, arrayed against us. Yet we haven’t even entered the ring and still, we are winning!

    302. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Thepnr

      No. I don’t think I’m at primary school either.

      I want people to feel welcome and included and encouraged to support and vote for independence. Slagging, berating and biting the face off people who have different opinions does not encourage anybody to support independence or this blog.

      But, I accept it’s no my blog to set the rules or moderate it. It’s only a suggestion and if you don’t want to do that, fair enough.

    303. Alexk says:

      Note that the polls are all about a referendum, not independence.

      Are they trying ot panic Scotgov into a wrong move?

    304. Thepnr says:

      @Colin Alexander

      That’s right Colin, all opinions are relevant and if I choose to post a counter opinion then I will. If I choose to personally criticise your opinion I’ll make sure that your name is at the top of the post so there can be no confusion.

    305. Colin Alexander says:

      https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2019/08/scottish-labour-must-stop-treating-nationalism-virus-be-cured

      Discussion of Labour’s internal dissent regarding their position on indyref – from a pro-Labour, pro-unionist perspective, I hasten to add.

      It wouldn’t archive, so direct link to article.

      I want to highlight the talk of a federal UK, which as the name suggests would be a UK-wide vote. Just like the EU-Ref vote, England decides for Scotland?

      A federal UK would be a new attempt at the destruction of Scottish sovereignty. This would be the Unionist dream come true: British Empire subjugation and regionalisation of our sovereign nation.

      There is no: “let’s just keep things as they are”. Change is coming one way or another.

      That is why we must exercise our sovereignty and win our independence.

    306. Clydebuilt says:

      Alexk @1.30pm

      “Are they trying to panic the Scot Gov into a wrong move?”

      There’s posters on here, letter writers in the National and SNP politicians doing just that.

    307. David says:

      Whether you agree with AUOB or not and whether Aberdeen got 5 thousand or 12 thousand its still one hell of a result .

    308. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Stu.,

      You “added” the LibDem voters back in but that set me thinking….

      When are the police going to investigate the LibDems for subtracting £2,400,000 from a convicted fraudster…

      https://tinyurl.com/JoSwinsonOwes-2-400-000

      Jo Swinson could legitimately be said to be living off of immoral earnings. For equality sake, Mr Vince Cable and Mr Nick Clegg also lived off of immoral earnings.

      Did the LibDems actually get away with being art-and-part in a multi-million pound fraud?

      Just asking?

    309. Jack Murphy says:

      A couple of days ago Craig Murray the former UK Ambassador writing about schools in Scotland wrote in his blog titled:

      ……………….THE DEVOLUTION TRAP…………………..

      Closing with this:
      “…..The big picture is that within the UK Scotland will never escape the drain on its economic resources and subsequent impoverishment, and will never fulfill its economic potential.

      Meanwhile, in trying to run public services within the context of Tory austerity, those services are simply bound to be inadequate and the SNP ends up taking the blame for failures created deliberately in Westminster.

      Devolution has run its course.

      There is no devo-max solution that will make things better.

      It is time to forget all ideas of making the UK less disastrous, and to concentrate all energies on one thing and one thing only: Independence. ”

      The article is only a 2-3 minutes read. Recommended.

      Here it is:
      https://tinyurl.com/y2vplwqg



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