The stagnant pool
We’re supposed to be taking a few days off, but it’s been tipping it down outside for 36 solid hours, so when an alert reader emailed us a question relating to this article from Monday, we couldn’t help but go and research it just to pass some time.
They’d asked how many of the Tory MSPs elected last Thursday had been rejected by the voters of a constituency seat on the same day, and we were startled by the answer – of the 24 Conservative members of the Scottish Parliament elected on the list last week, every single one was also a failed constituency candidate.
And that got us thinking.
In total, 67% of the opposition MSPs taking their seats in the chamber – 44 out of 66 – when the new Parliament convenes will be constituency rejects. (There’s a full list below the main text of this article.) 18 of the 44 came 3rd in the seat they contested, and one finished 4th. 11 lost by margins of more than 10,000 votes.
Rather remarkably, given those statistics, we could only find a single seat – Inverness and Nairn – where the winner, runner-up and 3rd-place finisher ALL ended up MSPs.
The solitary candidate who stood in the seat and DIDN’T end up in Parliament (the Lib Dems’ Caroline Caddick) must feel pretty left out, but the 86% of voters who cast their votes for one of the other three must be wondering why they bothered.
In such circumstances it surely can’t be entirely coincidental that turnout in Holyrood elections is consistently lower than Westminster ones. In well over half of Scotland’s 73 constituencies, voters rejecting a candidate hasn’t prevented them strolling into the Parliament anyway, sometimes having won as little as 8.6% of the vote.
(Annie Wells of the Conservatives in Glasgow Provan, who gathered just 2,062 votes, although to be fair to her that’s still a couple of hundred more than Tory leader Ruth Davidson got in 2011, becoming an MSP despite finishing 4th in Glasgow Kelvin.)
So what (if anything) should be done about it? When we raised the subject on Twitter yesterday several options were suggested:
1. Switch to Single Transferable Vote
This is the option preferred by the Electoral Reform Society and used in council elections. The upsides are that it tends to produce roughly proportional results and avoids “wasted” votes. The downsides are that it loses the constituency link prized by voters, and somewhat falls apart in the event of by-elections.
2. Prevent incumbent MSPs from standing on the list
Some people have suggested that any MSP who’s already in a seat shouldn’t be allowed to have a backup list spot, on the grounds that having already been in power, voters should have the ability to make a judgement on their record and throw them out if they want, improving accountability and therefore engagement.
The upside is that it still lets new talent have a chance to prove itself by coming through on the list. The downside is that such a rule would probably require small parties to change their leader at every election. Had it been in place this year, for example, the Greens would have lost both of their “co-convenors”.
3. Restrict the number of “loser’s spots”
This is an idea of our own that we haven’t seen anyone else propose. Parties would only be allowed list seats for a set number of “losing” MSPs (it could be a total number, say 10 nationwide, or one or two per region). Once those spots were used up, the seats would go to the next people on the lists who hadn’t been rejected in a constituency.
That way parties would still be able to get their leaders and experienced figures into Parliament if they had no “safe” constituencies to run in, but the “old guard” wouldn’t be allowed to hog all the seats, as happened this year with Labour.
(As far as we can tell, 16 of the party’s 17 constituency losers who got backup list seats were already sitting MSPs.)
We can’t identify any obvious drawbacks to the plan. It seems to be better both for the electorate, who get more ability to reject unsatisfactory MSPs, and for the parties themselves, who are forced to refresh and renew their ranks.
(How can Labour possibly rebuild from the ruins when almost all of their MSPs are the same ones who got them in such a mess?)
So just for fun, we thought we’d solicit your opinion.
What should be done about the Holyrood electoral system?
- Restrict the number of "loser's spots" (47%, 1,648 Votes)
- Change to Single Transferable Vote (29%, 1,001 Votes)
- Bar incumbent MSPs from standing on the list (15%, 531 Votes)
- Do nothing - it's fine as it is (9%, 306 Votes)
Total Voters: 3,486
———————————————————————————————-
APPENDIX
* denotes a candidate who finished in 3rd place
** denotes a candidate who finished in 4th place
CONSERVATIVES (24)
Liz Smith lost by 1,422 in Kinross-shire
Gordon Lindhurst lost by 2,456 in Pentlands
Alex Johnstone lost by 2,472 in Angus North & Mearns
Ross Thomson lost by 2,755 in Aberdeen South
Douglas Ross lost by 2,875 in Moray
*Miles Briggs lost by 3,625 in Edinburgh Southern
*Rachel Hamilton lost by 5,284 in East Lothian
Peter Chapman lost by 6,683 in Banffshire
Dean Lockhart lost by 6,718 in Stirling
*Alexander Stewart lost by 7,232 in Clackmannanshire
*Donald Cameron lost by 7,721 in Argyll
*Maurice Corry lost by 8,631 in Dumbarton
Jamie Greene lost by 8,724 in Cunninghame North
*Margaret Mitchell lost by 9,655 in Hamilton
*Maurice Golden lost by 10,129 in Clydebank
Murdo Fraser lost by 10,353 in Perthshire North
*Jeremy Balfour lost by 10,681 in Midlothian
Edward Mountain lost by 10,857 in Inverness
*Adam Tomkins lost by 10,950 in Anniesland
*Annie Wells lost by 11,078 in Provan
Liam Kerr lost by 11,630 in Donside
*Graham Simpson lost by 12,099 in East Kilbride
*Alison Harris lost by 12,383 in Falkirk West
*Brian Whittle lost by 12,450 in Kilmarnock
LABOUR (17)
*Ken Macintosh lost by 1,851 in Eastwood
Alex Rowley lost by 3,041 in Cowdenbeath
Rhoda Grant lost by 3,496 in the Western Isles
James Kelly lost by 3,743 in Rutherglen
Elaine Smith lost by 3,779 in Coatbridge
Lewis Macdonald lost by 4,349 in Aberdeen
Kezia Dugdale lost by 5,087 in Edinburgh Eastern
Neil Bibby lost by 5,199 in Paisley
Richard Leonard lost by 6,192 in Airdrie
Johann Lamont lost by 6,482 in Pollok
Claire Baker lost by 7,395 in Kirkcaldy
*Mary Fee lost by 7,474 in Renfrewshire North
*Claudia Beamish by 7,826 in Clydesdale
Neil Findlay lost by 8,393 in Almond Valley
Jenny Marra lost by 8,828 in Dundee West
Mark Griffin lost by 9,478 in Cumbernauld
*David Stewart lost by 11,786 votes in Inverness
GREENS (2)
**Alison Johnstone lost by 5,755 in Edinburgh Central
Patrick Harvie lost by 4,048 in Glasgow Kelvin
LIBERAL DEMOCRATS (1)
*Mike Rumbles lost by 6,138 in Aberdeenshire West
I understand that the voting system cannot be changed by Holyrood but would need the English Government’s permission to change it.
As is very evident to all of us, EVEL is a one way system. No SVSL.
I’m not sure it’s really a problem. For all parties other than the SNP (and perhaps the Lib Dems in the Highlands and Islands), the number of seats they win is solely determined by the list vote. The only effect the constituency vote has is to cause some candidates to be elected rather than others.
Given that Labour got more constituency seats than list seats, one might even argue that it would actually be in their interest to stop putting forward constituency candidates altogether.
Anyway, I agree the voting system should be changed, but I don’t like STV, either.
I dont see what the issue is
a Turnip could stand for the SNP in West Fife and get elected by 40% of the constituency votes (at least )
Does that mean that everyone voting SNP likes Turnips ? or doe sit mean you just vote for the party you like .
rub being its not just a FPTP system , its D’hondt as well , and the make up in the Parliament roughly reflects the voter turnout and choice .
22% voted Tory , they get 24% of MSP’s
and so down the line
Whats wrong with that ?
As to Turnout , well when things matter , people turnout .
They turned out for the REF , and they tend not to bother about who manages the refuse .
As to “liking a candidate ” and voters rejecting a candidate .
I would argue voters dont really know them so it does not matter .
Apart from the party leaders , I doubt if I could name an MSP
Or a decent Scottish footballer , currently playing for the National team .
(Could be a clue there , if they were any good they might stick out ) .
“The only effect the constituency vote has is to cause some candidates to be elected rather than others.”
Um, yes. That’s the point. The voters keep voting against people who become MSPs anyway. That’s bad for accountability and may be part of why turnout is low.
I voted STV because, after 17 years it is clear that Scotland’s electorate can’t fully grasp d’Hondt. If an effective education programme could be run to convince people that list votes aren’t second preferences I might support one of the other options.
Having said that, the varieties of d’Hondt proposed above will do nothing about tactical voting for FPTP seats or smaller parties trying to game the list system, so I think I’ll stick with my STV choice just the same.
“As to Turnout, well when things matter, people turnout.”
Then why is is always lower for Holyrood than Westminster? Scottish MPs can generally achieve nothing at Westminster, being just 59 out of 650. At Holyrood they control health, education and taxation, to name just three major things that affect people’s daily lives. By almost any measure, voting in Holyrood elections should matter more to Scots than in UK elections.
Also, THERE ARE NO SPACES BEFORE COMMAS AND FULL STOPS. Tsk.
Prefer NEEPS masel’: North East Ethnic Pairty.
Sorry to hear it is raining in Barf. Maybe they could use the watter.
A bit O/T, but would there be any advantage in moving to a national list (Germany, New Zealand), instead of regional ones? In the NZ case, the process is made a lot clearer: it is made quite clear that the Parliament’s distribution of seats is based on the party vote, less the constituency seats won by a party. It can result in an ‘overhang’, where a party wins more constituency seats than would be justified by its share of the list vote, but I digress.
“the varieties of d’Hondt proposed above will do nothing about tactical voting for FPTP seats or smaller parties trying to game the list system”
They’re not trying to do anything about those things.
“Murdo Fraser lost by 10,353 in Perthshire North”
It was a lot closer than that in Perthshire North!
They’re not trying to do anything about those things.
I didn’t say they were, but the fact that they don’t influences my choice.
Surely the other unionist parties for next year’s council elections must see that the Tories are going to come out with the ‘secure the union only by voting for your fav ice cream vendor. Instead of attacking the SNP they have to start attacking the real govt of Scotland, the Tories.
Davidson proffering ice-cream during the campaign was redolent of the child-catcher from ‘Chitty Chitty Bang Bang’. “Come along kiddie-winkies, free ice-cream all day today”.
There’s never free ice-cream.
My former sitting MSP M. McMahon (Lab) was defeated by Richard Leonard (SNP) I notice that McMahon did not stand on the list. I suspect that he saw the writing on the wall and decided it was time to get out.
Probably the most astute decision that he took during his period in office.
No option for Proportional Representation?
“No option for Proportional Representation?”
Um, AMS is proportional representation.
With the third option would that require all 129 current MSP’s to jostle for the 73 constituency seats at the next election? (If all 129 were to stand again). As none of them would be allowed on the list?
It perhaps already says that in the post, and I’m just not seeing the wood for the trees.
Its quite an eye opener to see just how badly the tories actually lost May 5. And yet all weekend, tory BBC led headlines were roaring away, SNP Holyrood fail.
Jump in anywhere to “Poll success shows how Scottish Tories came back from the dead” Mure Dickie in Edinburgh. Whatever Mure Dickie’s on, he/she’s a great example of how the Britnat lie machine works.
link to ft.com
“One of the two Tory candidates elected on the Glasgow list was Adam Tomkins, a law professor and a one-time advocate of abolition of the monarchy. The other was Annie Wells, a food retail manager and single mother with a working-class accent who told one campaign rally how she had won over a sceptical voter who started their conversation with the comment: “Ah’m no a Tory, hen.”
UKOK attack propaganda at its worst from FT but that not a tory hen’s in for a surprise when she meets Ruth MacThatcher.
FPTP. Or do them all. It is an absolute affront to Democracy. Leading to a weaker Parliament and less getting down in line with the electoral wishes. To get over 50% of votes and not have a complete majority is more than annoying and frustration. It should be illegal. All the crowing losers will be ejected the next time. When the voters wisen up to the system. Just vote for Party chosen (1) and (2) absolutely. No deviation.
It will be another frustrating few years as totally rejected MSP’s who had a total cheek to describe voters who pay their substance, as ‘viruses’ and ‘not able to run their own affairs’ from ignoramouses who can’t count, prominently displaced throughout the Parliament. It turns people’s stomach and makes people feel physically sick. The idea seems to be to turn people off, but more will get annoyed and angry and further engage. Until this is sorted.
Pretty sure Murdo Fraser did’nt lose by that margin, I think that’s the figure for the 2011 election you have there.
Can the same analysis be done for the SNP? I am in the south of Scotland and I would suspect that changing the system would effect the caliber of candidates being selected to run for a constituency seat in areas where the chances of winning are poor. We need great candidates to stand against the tories, but we wouldn’t then want to lose their talent in the Parliament.
“Can the same analysis be done for the SNP?”
Of the SNP’s four list MSPs, two were rejected in constituencies.
I’d make 2 changes, firstly it would have to be either a constituency candidate or list but never both, how can it be right being rejected or coming last can still get you elected.
Secondly list MSPs when it comes to voting on matters in Holyrood, their vote should only count as half a vote, seems only fair to me 🙂
“Then why is is always lower for Holyrood than Westminster? Scottish MPs can generally achieve nothing at Westminster, being just 59 out of 650. At Holyrood they control health, education and taxation, to name just three major things that affect people’s daily lives. By almost any measure, voting in Holyrood elections should matter more to Scots than in UK elections.”
That’s what you may think, but since the start HL has had average turnout low 50%, GE low 60%
Using your logic, people interact with their local council far more than their Govt. (bins,council tax , pot-holes,etc)
Yet TO (for councils elections ) is round 40%, lower still when you interact more ?
I am truly surprised at the amount of failures that have sneaked in via the proverbial back door, I am also surprised that the SNP never had any get in this way, who according to the Tory/Labour/Lib Dem fan club, lost quite significantly after the vote count, and whose numbers have been cut because less people have voted for them despite the fact that numbers prove the SNP have grown stronger… the way the voting is used for Holyrood was put in place to runs this happening so that all parties got a got proportional representation, (I think) but I think SNP have broken that… Lmao
I can’t vote in that poll, as my preferred option (which I was trying to punt on Twitter yesterday) is to bar incumbent constituency MSPs from standing on the list.
Added to that I would suggest a limit on the number of terms an MSP can serve as a list member. Two, or perhaps three? If they haven’t secured a constituency by then, maybe it’s time for some new blood.
I would exempt from that second stricture, members standing for parties which have won no constituencies at all during the period in question (two or three terms, whatever). That would allow small parties without enough support to win constituencies to support a stable parliamentary presence without having to keep changing their personnel.
I’m just sorry Stuart either didn’t understand what I was proposing, or took heed of a different and less workable proposal from someone else.
I’m not sure a move to STV would solve more problems than it creates.
I like the idea of a social norm of disparaging parties who keep putting unprincipled careerists at the top of their list, but that can happen without a change to the rules.
Common sense would suggest if someone is not supported in the constituency seat by such a margin they should not be allowed to get in by the back door.
Much with the same idea as a lost deposit if a candidate loses by a certain percentage of the vote in a constituency then that should immediately bar him from standing on the list.
It would make party’s consider more carefully where they stand candidates.
Technically if the tories had pol pot and hitler getting not a single vote in there constituency vote which no one would argue they should get any votes but if there on the list they get in.
Even something as simple as “losing candidates must achieve a minimum of 30% votes of the winners total (so if the winner got 100,000 votes the list msp must get 30,000 minimum) or even 50%. Failure to get that reasonable number should be heard as the voice of the electorate not supporting that candidate.
Just an idea.
I really don’t see why you are so bothered by losing constituency candidates getting through on the list. Folk vote for their preferred candidate on the constituency – they don’t vote against anyone. Restricting losing constituency candidates from list places is granting a veto to the largest group of electors which could be only 35% or less.
As regards turnout, I think it is relatively low for Holyrood mainly because:
(a) The Scottish Parliament’s powers are so limited.
(b) We don’t have a proper independent media to give Holyrood elections high status coverage
Given that I can’t get my head round the list system, it may not be a good idea for me to vote here.
I don’t like the STV, it usually means you end up with the candidate that the fewest voters didn’t want.
Not sure about the “no sitting MSP’s either. All they need to do is resign their seat a week before the election, and there you go…
So I’ve voted for the restricted loser’s spots option.
Although I can’t for the life of me see why the party that receives the most votes in a region shouldn’t get one seat, but like I said earlier I don’t understand the system so their must be a reason.
I’m a bit perturbed by the rhetoric of “failures sneaking in through the back door” without qualifying this at all. Nicola was a failure sneaking in through the back door in 1999 and 2003. She failed to win her constituency and was elected on the list.
I don’t have the slightest problem with a candidate agreeing to fight a difficult or unwinnable seat also appearing on the list. It’s a great way for new blood to work a constituency. Here, Christine Grahame was a list MSP three times, but won the constituency on the fourth (and fifth) attempt by sheer hard work. I applaud this aspect of the AMS system. The new young blood list MSPs keep the constituency MSPs on their toes by creating an arms race for service to the community.
What I do find problematic is the use of the list by has-beens on their way down, allowing them to stay in Holyrood long after their expiry date. Hence my suggestion that sitting constituency MSPs be barred from the list. If they can’t hold the constituency they already won, they should go. And if this deprives a party of their leader, tough.
It would be absolutely ludicrous to bar list MSPs from standing on the list for a second term, and I’m sorry Stuart even suggested it. I don’t know where the idea came from because it certainly wasn’t me. (I do think a limit on the number of terms a list MSP can stand should be considered though, to prevent numpties being handed a permanent safe place by their party.)
I voted for STV. I think the link with constituencies is overrated. Basically, with STV you have a chance of personalising the system, meaning that individual candidates have to compete on genuine popularity amongst the electorate.
Another feature is that you can go to the MSP of your choice when it comes to getting help. What is not to like about that?
While I would have preferred the use of the single transferable voting system for holyrood.
I don’t know if STV would have seen our MSP Tricia Marwick getting elected, as she did under the current system in 1999 when she stood on the constituency as well as the list for Holyrood.
Its fine complaining about the voting system when your winning, but I suspect the introduction of any new voting system would probably create just as many problems and complaints if we had lost.
Common sense would suggest if someone is not supported in the constituency seat by such a margin they should not be allowed to get in by the back door.
I don’t really think common sense suggests anything of the sort. There are always going to be seats that are unwinnable for a particular party, and yet they want to field a complete slate of constituency candidates. I don’t see why someone who agrees to fight the impossible constituency should be barred from the list as a punishment for doing that.
The problem is failed sitting constituency MSPs using the list to get back in when their constituents have indicated they no longer want them. That’s the thing to focus on. Not people who have rather heroically fought difficult or unwinnable constituencies for their party.
Tirnout is interesting… I’d link elected representatives’ salary and expenses proportionally to turnout.
55% turnout = 55% salary / expenses.
I favour dispensing with the second vote and applying D’Hondt and the list system to the total constituency vote in a region. Advantages:
1.It forces parties to contest constituencies and not rely on piggybacking.
2. Only one vote required.
3. Genuinely proportional to votes cast, not “let’s think about this again.”
I voted STV because, after 17 years it is clear that Scotland’s electorate can’t fully grasp d’Hondt. If an effective education programme could be run to convince people that list votes aren’t second preferences I might support one of the other options.
STV is horrible, and if we changed to that there would be tears before bedtime.
The AMS system using d’Hondt to achieve proportionality is in my view an excellent system. It has numerous advantages I’ve outlined before. (I just don’t like incumbent constituency MSPs avoiding the wrath of the voters by going on the list.) The problem is voter education, and worse than that, active lying and misrepresentation to voters by people who want to trick these voters into gving them their votes.
I would be really sad if such a good system were to be junked by people who didn’t understand it, because people didn’t understand it, because self-serving politicians had been lying to the electorate about it.
Hmmm… these unelected MSP’s still given a seat in parliament beyond the reach of the electorate’s power to oust them…
Easy solution. Round them up, call them lords, and stick them in a second chamber where they can mill around all day half pissed or fully asleep and nobody has to listen to them.
What could possibly be wrong with that idea?
Constituency seats and List seats should be separated more. In a one chamber parliament, it’s a good idea to make sure there’s a sure way to balance between representation and ideology, Party policy and pragmatism. To this end, you could consider these changes:
Prevent incumbent consituency seat holders only from running on the list too, so constituency seat holders are fully accountable on local issues with no backdoor to parliament.
Pool list seats nationally instead of by region. There’s no real reasons to tie them to regions anyway, as we have seen with candidates running for list seats many miles from their actual homes.
This system would encourage parties to place all of their “big guns” on a national list as a government (or opposition) in waiting to be judged on their competence and party manifesto at a national level. Party leaders and cabinet hopefuls would be at the top of their lists and wouldn’t sit on constituency seats so would effectively be competing for a mandate, not for a seat. This might be seen as guaranteed jobs for career politicians, but it might also encourage people to join or at least engage with political parties through unions and lobby groups. So If you don’t like the Labour leadership or the direction of the party, join the Labour party to vote them out or have your say etc.
Constituency seats would be contested on more local issues and candidates local standing, knowledge, activity and record, possibly without even needing a concrete party affiliation. Committees should have mandatory majority representation of constituency members to guarantee effective scrutiny of government initiatives and engagement of what will essentially be back-benchers.
Ruth Davidson says she sacked the whole list of Tory candidates and selected these people herself. So one person appointed them to parliament, even though thousands of voters rejected them.
I think you’re focussing on the wrong problem here, because the whole point of proportional representation is that it’s not a “winner takes all” approach, so the idea of “losers” getting elected is pretty much built-in. Short of removing the FPTP element entirely, any attempt to get parties to choose between the list or the constituency for candidates means making them choose where to put their best talent. That risks both the 2011 scenarios – Labour getting a bunch of deadbeats elected on the list because the better candidates were all in constituencies, and the SNP getting someone like Bill Walker elected in a constituency because no one thought he had a chance of winning it.
The real problem is the public not being able to choose who gets elected off the lists. I’ve less problem with Johann Lamont being in Holyrood than Anas Sarwar or any of the other Slabbers who didn’t have the guts to try and get elected in a constituency. At least constituency candidates have to do a bit of campaigning – it’s currently possible to get yourself in a prime list position, and then just sit back and watch everyone else do the work for you.
Open Lists are the answer, like they have in Sweden. It gives the public the power to decide who is actually worth electing from a party’s list, so it wouldn’t be enough to get your dad to throw a fancy dinner to try and win favour amongst local members so they give you a good list position – you’d need to actually win favour with the voters as well. That would also give an impetus to list MSPs to properly represent their constituents, since they’d need to keep winning their approval for re-election.
However, one of the fundamental problems we have in Scotland is the multiple voting systems. It’s ridiculous, and it’s no wonder the public gets confused, which I’m pretty sure is one of the factors in the lower turnouts for non-Westminster elections (and it’s why we can’t have Scottish and council elections on the same day as well). Since Open Lists would be yet another system, I currently favour introducing STV to Holyrood, so that folk at least only have to learn the one voting system for both Holyrood and council elections. If nothing else, some folk already think the list vote is a second-preference, so let’s just have proper preferential voting in place. It’s not really proportional, but at least it gives the public a way of not electing Anas Sarwar, Mike Rumbles and James Kelly.
Once we have independence, have Open Lists for all our elections, and maybe also move back to council and parliamentary elections being on the same day.
Just out of curiosity, is it possible to extrapolate how Holyrood would look if the recent election had been first past the post?
Morag says:
11 May, 2016 at 12:16 pm
I’m a bit perturbed by the rhetoric of “failures sneaking in through the back door” without qualifying this at all. Nicola was a failure sneaking in through the back door in 1999 and 2003. She failed to win her constituency and was elected on the list.
So its probably better left as it is. Its failing to do what unionists planned, block Scottish independence but its certainly holding it back.
link to archive.is
Tartan Tories roar back to kill off independence: PM hails Conservative performance as Labour has its worst result in Scotland since 1910
Pool list seats nationally instead of by region. There’s no real reasons to tie them to regions anyway, as we have seen with candidates running for list seats many miles from their actual homes.
That’s quite a good idea I think. Any further thoughts anyone?
Trying to be completely fair, we would have to acknowledge that somebody failing to win their constituency seat does not necessarily translate as people desperately wanting rid of them.
In quite a few areas people are often torn between local personality and their party.
I know, for instance, in Ayr, the Tory John Scott is very highly regarded and many voted for him on a personal basis, but gave their actual preferred party their list vote.
Others gave their preferred party their constituency vote, even though it wasn’t their preferred candidate.
I suspect the latter would have been very pleased if, for example, the SNP had won the constituency seat, but John Scott had nonetheless managed to secure the inevitable Tory list seat, even though they “rejected” him.
That, of course, isn’t the case across the board, but it is something worth considering.
I’d make 2 changes, firstly it would have to be either a constituency candidate or list but never both, how can it be right being rejected or coming last can still get you elected.
Secondly list MSPs when it comes to voting on matters in Holyrood, their vote should only count as half a vote, seems only fair to me.
Why should someone who fights an unwinnable or very difficult seat for their party be barred from standing on the list? That’s precisely the route many of the SNP’s big hitters took to the position they’re in now. Fought unwinnable seats, got in on the list, worked hard in their region to show voters what they were capable of, and finally won these “unwinnable” seats. It’s a strength of the system, not a weakness.
And it’s monstrous to suggest that list MSPs should have only half a vote. It entirely negates the proportionality of parliament. Would you have suggested than in 1999 or 2003 when the SNP was mostly list MSPs? Then, Labour and the LibDems were pouring scorn on list members for being second-class. It wasn’t true then and it isn’t true now.
Is it better that a “losing” candidate should take a spot or somebody for whom no votes at all were cast? The losing candidate was voted for by at least some people. By definition anyone who stood and didn’t win would be a losing candidate even if they lost by 1 vote. The biggest problem is that the parties choose the list candidates and not the electorate
Should the loser spots on the list, or rather the ranking of them on the list, be based upon votes? This would be fair as it should only allow those narrowly defeated, or at least garnering a reasonable vote share, to top the list?
Are all parties the same in that it’s the party members who vote to select and prioritise the list? Based on what happened in the south of Scotland that would seem a solid way of deciding who local party representatives would be on the list.
In the case of the south, party members ranked a member of the cabinet low down on the list, and ranked a mix of strong existing list MSPs and new prospects very highly. In so doing we seem to have a good mix of elected members that are reflective of the priorities of the people in the south. I’m not seeing the problem.
Surely there is at least one SNP as well Rev ?
My penny’s worth, the party that gets the most votes on the list gets the first candidate elected, then you practise the d’hondt formula from the second list vote onwards.
Under FPTP Nicola could have had a constituency seat earlier. She was not rejected and sneaked back in the list. She stood in a seat she had not won constituency ever. She was not elected and them rejected to 3rd or 4th. No one had ever experienced her ever winning a constituency seat. She did not sneak back in in any way. She had never won a constituency seat because of Holyrood Electoral system.
These ignoramouses are being elected on to Constituency seat, totally insulting the electorate verbally and with actions and being totally rejected and then come back in. Time and time again. How do you get rid of them? It is different. She also was not picking and choosing a seat to get in. A total farcical insult.
It is different – proving your worth on a list seat and then winning a Constituency seat.
Um, yes. That’s the point. The voters keep voting against people who become MSPs anyway. That’s bad for accountability and may be part of why turnout is low.
I think you have to distinguish between people who (sometimes rather heroically) fight unwinnable seats for their party to allow the party to field a complete slate of constituency candidates, and people who have held a constituency in the past and been unceremoniously booted.
I voted keep the existing system. D’Hondt is a good compromise between having a constituency MP while keeping it proportional.
Would we complain about it if, say, Swinney had lost narrowly in Perthshire this time round, and got in on the list?
While it is frustrating that absolute chancers like Tomkins can get in, my opinion is coloured by the fact that I think he’s an arse.
Maybe it wouldnt be so bad if he had at least come second – is there a way of putting a bar on them like a minimum number of votes, and if they dont achieve that they drop down the list?
The most important thing though is an education campaign on how the system works. It should be emphasised that the list vote is key to the make up of the parliament. It should NOT be called the second vote.
STV is abysmal, and Im afraid we might find out why, next year.
If it was FPTP it would have been a wipe out. Same as GE. Total numbers of seats.
Cameron confidently forgot to mention the different voting system when congratulating Davidson. He probably doesn’t know. He doesn’t care.
Before he made the insulting, sleekit remark about the Scottish Gov coming asking permission for a Panda for Edinburgh Zoo. Insulting the Chinese as well. Insults many other countries. Alcoholics don’t care. All they care about is were the next drink is coming from. Paid for by the embezzlement of public funds.
Ken500: “To get over 50% of votes and not have a complete majority is more than annoying and frustration. It should be illegal. “
Nobody has ever gotten over 50% of the votes at Holyrood.
Whatever system you come up with, one thing is clear, we get people we didn’t vote for, moreover we get people we voted against and that’s bad for voter confidence because you can’t keep saying to people you must get out and vote because your vote counts when clearly it doesn’t
I think it becomes a more obvious problem for us in Scotland when the party which has caused the electorate the most offence stack up all their own pals in the waiting room queue to proceed to park their backsides back in the seat the electorate originally voted them out of
What this does and will do to voter confidence over time as both Tory and Labour will be the ones to benefit from this system is to cause voter apathy which probably will lead to an even bigger drop in votes for the party we actually do want in government
The only vote that is probably 100% secure is the Tory vote purely and simply because it’s an anti SNP vote so I think you can see where I’m going with this one
So yes the system needs changing but that’s for cleverer folk with numbers than me but one thing I think is certain and profound, apathy will cause the Tory vote to look better, and probably get better
And that’s something the vast majority of us in Scotland don’t want
As Doug Daniel says, one answer is to have ‘open lists’ rather than ‘closed lists’, so the voters can decide for themselves the order in which a party’s candidates get elected in any particular region.
The Scotland Act 2016 devolves control of the electoral system so it can now be changed by Holyrood rather than Westminster.
A right good thing to pick a fight over. Stir it up that Holyrood wants to change its voting system and the Tories are stopping us doing it. Can’t see that going down well
I’d suggest Scotland adopt the system used in Finland, a country with a similar size of population. The country is divided into multi-member constituencies, preserving the connection of elected members with constituents. In each constituency, each party (sometimes small parties can form an electoral pact with a larger one to increase their chances) puts forward a list of candidates. Each candidate has their personal number, and the voters vote for the candidate they want. So the electorate decides the order of candidates on the list. Each party is allocated a number of seats corresponding to said party’s total percentage vote in the constituency (say 5 seats). The 5 most popular candidates from that party are duly elected. I think it’s a great system. No system is perfect, but this one is good.
Not sure if this has been suggested as short of time to read all comments but could each party in each region supply a list of, say 6 candidates, though more could be possible, in alphabetical order.
Voters could then rank these in their own order, which would give them a much-,needed say in the process. It would be cumbersome but surely easier than all STV, and would allowi the public to judge ‘failed’ candidates.
I like the idea of restricting the number of Consituency MSP’s being entered on the list. Of course we will end up with all the Generals being on the list but the young spotty Cannon Fodder chosen to replace them will gain experience and we may even occasionally end up with an accidental MSP. The downside is that stronger established politicians such as Yousaff, Sturgeon etc will end up being opposed by Tory boy’s and girls barely of the age of consent, and in their case the age of consent is not being their main barrier to an active sex life. So a ‘shoey-in’ for established MSP’s is a downside but way better than being guaranteed to be an MSP by merely standing regardless of the vote.
I’m a do nothing, in a very biased kind of way. All the pro-indy parties combined achieved 49.4% of the vote on the list (less on contstituency), which if represented totally proportionally in some magic way would have given us 64 MSPs against 65 Unionist MSPS. As it is we got 69 pro-indy MSPs.
Tamper ye not!
It would be interesting to see (not to mention very time consuming!) if the past Scottish election results were fed into 3 of the options proposed and how it would have turned out…
I voted STV above mainly because Patricia Marwick, in her excellent interview on Sunday with Gordon Brewer, preferred it. But I must admit it’s hard to understand. I’ve checked it out on the Electoral Reform Society website and read the interesting pdf download by Prof Curtice on the Scottish LA elections.”Scottish Local Govermnment Elections 2012″.
link to electoral-reform.org.uk
Does it answer Tony Benn’s 3Qs for democracy:
Who put you there
What power have you got
How can we get rid of you
All equally important and the “how can we get rid of you” is the most cheated by allowing constituency candidates to stand on the list. Maybe Morag’s solution is the best.
Aye Rev its a bit of a shambles ,i havnt voted because you left out the it doesnt matter as you aint getting to change it Scotland under westminster box.
We will just have to live with crappy electoral systems until we can tell westminster to get lost.
None of these systems would be relevant in indy Scotland to start with we will need to break up the existing constituancies to make FPTP MSP`s or we would only have the places to fill half the seats in our parliament.
Nope i vote for FPTP its the only fair way to ensure that deadwood politicians cant sneak in the back door,they might sneak in the front door but at least then they would have the support of the voters who voted for them and need to campaign hard to win their place in our parliament.
And you are right its not so much as people dont care they just cant be bothered with all the electoral bullshit,why vote when its clear that our parliament is a joke and there is no way to get rid of politicians they no longer want to serve their constituancies,the whole thing is designed to breed apathy.
PS its sunny in Scotland Rev get your butt up here lol
I think the current system is a reasonable compromise.
STV could hurt the SNP with Tories and Labour always tactically voting for each other.
There was a time when Labour used to vote SNP to keep out the Tory and vice versa. Now the split is unionist/nationalist.
“Dr Jim says:
11 May, 2016 at 12:53 pm
Whatever system you come up with, one thing is clear, we get people we didn’t vote for, moreover we get people we voted against and that’s bad for voter confidence because you can’t keep saying to people you must get out and vote because your vote counts when clearly it doesn’t”
Exactly , i voted Lib Dem then Tory, and got a Lib Dem MSP, and 24% of my MSP’s are Tory
So I am reasonably satisfied.
Everybody gets a vote , and it does not bother me that 45% voted SNP, as I like our FM (very well turned out,articulate,and conciliatory)
basically SNP tax policy ideas are in line with my own , keep it low and make the best of what you have spending wise.
I care passionately for those that are unfortunate to use a “Foodbank”, i just don’t want to pay £2 a week extra in tax to help them.
So I am like the vast majority of Scots (SNP+Tory ) 65% of electorate.
On the constituency vote the SNP got 46.5% of the vote, and Greens 0.6%, If all 129 seats were in some way FPTP, the SNP would have 60 MSPs, and the Greens 1, a Unionist majority of 8 if they put up the PO.
On the regional vote the SNP got 41.7%, Greens 6.6%, RISE 0.5%, Solidarity 0.6%. SNP would have 53-54 MSPs, Greens 8-9, RISE not quite 1 and Solidarity not quite 1. A Unionist majority of at least 1.
Looks to me that any reform would have resulted in LESS SNP MSPs.
O/T More to the point, after watching “Scottish questions” (from ENGERLISH MPs) with the ignorant runt Mundel bad mouthing his own country and countrymen with the help of the nasty Nat basher Ian Murray. Then they have a go at belittling and bad mouthing the daft jocks in PMQs. They and the EBC go on about the second referendum. They are trying to trap Scotland into this situation so they can slam the door in our faces, then the whips will come out and we will be very sorry.
I have said constantly the WESTMINSTER GOVERNMENT WILL NOT let Scotland go at any price they will do ANYTHING TO KEEP US IN THIS SORDID CORRUPT UNION. Read into that what you will!
In many other countries elections are run in 2 stages.
Can I suggest that we adopt a similar system without changing the current basic d’Hondt syatem.
In Week 1 the elction would be for Constituency Candidates only.
In Week 2 it would be for only the List Candidates.
Using such a system voters would know in advance the result of the Constituency Vote and would be able to work out where to place their list votes without trying to guess the system as happens under the current set-up.
If such a sytem had been in operation last week there is a pretty good chance that the end result would have been an SNP Overall Majority.
Hello again Stu
I was chatting with a few people about the list and what I found was quite interesting and its left me wondering if any of your other readers are finding the same.
It seemed that before Scotland’s political awakening most folks didn’t pay much heed to list candidates concentrating more on the how’s and the whys each party gets awarded the seat.
The Scottish election last week has now brought into focus who actually gets the seat.
The general feeling is its a bit of a anomaly that you can stand for both.
Surely a simple way to correct this is too change the rules so an individual cannot stand in election for both ?
In this way you would have the fptp constituency vote and campaign as normal and then for the regional list votes each party would select there candidates for the list seats
These candidates would then campaign for the list votes. The voting slip for the list would have each party and a number. The voter can then vote for an individual candidate on the list.
This would probably also have problems which I’m sure my fellow wingers will point in due course ??
The point I think is that people are not very happy with politicians and parties using the list vote in a way that is undemocratic and not the in the spirit of the way it’s devised.
I’ve been reading wings since it started and this is my first comment although I did send the Rev an email the other day about another matter (possibly for another day Stu?)
Thanks to all for reading and glad to be part of the debate rather than following
Make the regional selection random from the candidates list. It is a party choice not person.
That should convince parties to put quality candidates for the whole list.
It’s a pathetic system that rescues discredited, voter rejected candidates, and stops fresh talent from access.
Unless we can alter it for the better, Billy Connolly’s unforgiveable insult is given credence, “It’s a pretendy parliament”.
Rev Stu,
You had no First-Past-The-Post option?
I would go for FPTP for Holyrood until we get Independence. The Tories in Westminster keep telling us it leads to strong government.
That way we can properly hold the Unionists to account! 🙂
After indy we can introduce STV/AMS, etc…
Single vote.
100 odd constituencies. Won by first past post.
Parties get voting power based on % of national vote.
1 vote each FPP – MSP the other % votes used by party/group leader.
Parties get vote share of power.
But those heard in debates and able to influence have to get public approval to get a seat in the chamber.
Slightly O/T
What really gets my back up is:
Exit polls – at Elections/Referendums should be compulsory. (Not doing them is a ‘false’ economy’)
Postal Votes – In this country the percentage seems high or is that just my perception ?
These are the things that matter to me at the present,in Indy Scotland lets get all party/voter agreement on a system,decided democratically/fairly.
Rev Stuart: “voters rejecting a candidate hasn’t prevented them strolling into the Parliament anyway, sometimes having won as little as 8.6% of the vote.”
The voters didn’t reject them if the voters knew that the candidates were also on the list and the voters then voted for them in sufficient numbers on that regional list.
You shouldn’t be dividing the AMS system into two for the purposes of making a judgement on the system as a whole. That’s unreasonable.
The system as a whole works perfectly well and can’t be blamed for political parties making bad decisions in terms of who goes on lists.
Moreover, the SNP had people fighting on the constituency side who were also on the list. By doing that they endorse the system and exhibit a willingness to do what we are now criticising others for.
The biggest loser in this election was RISE, not Labour. Why? Because the system is designed to give representation to smaller parties. Despite that bias, RISE failed to win a single seat.
The electorate expressed something important with that judgement. RISE and others should listen to the electorate.
As I just said to Grouse Beater next door, it suits us if the same tired old failed morons are representing Labour. We should celebrate that and attack anyone who dares tinker with this system.
The electoral system is our best and biggest friend, apart from Wings (of course). Thus far, it’s the only institutional construct that hasn’t screwed us. Love it.
The scenario of omni-loser Johann Lamont as Presiding Officer at Holyrood would be a gross insult to the place. She is a reject as is Sarwar.
This wholesale fiddling of the vote must be what’s meant by Ulsterisation.
Every time people don’t get the exact result they wanted, they start complaining about the voting system. 🙁 No system is perfect. These things have a way of balancing out in the long run.
I’m happy with D’Hondt. 🙂
Losing constituency candidates haven’t been ‘rejected’ by voters they just didn’t come first in a FPTP contest. Personally I don’t think much of J. Lamont but 31% of Pollok voted for her. The idea of a PR voting system is that these 31% are entitled to representation in parliament.
However the current system is too compicated. I can’t see why we need TWO votes on TWO different ballot papers? Why can’t we have a system with a single constituency vote electing constituency MSPs by FPTP as at present – and then simply allocate additional regional seats by summing the total constituency votes for each party and allocating regional seats on a proportional basis? ONLY candidates who had stood in a constituency in that region could be on the list and they would be ranked in order of the percentage of votes they had received in the constituency vote.
I would remove the ‘second’ vote to determine the overall composition of Parliament. Instead the list MSPs would be decided based on the proportion their parties got in the constituency votes in the region. In my opinion this would stop parties trying to game the system, avoid accusations of wasted votes and encourage the electorate to vote for their party of choice rather than tactically.
A precondition of standing for MSP is to pass an IQ test with a score of at least 54 which is the mark just above the “Severely Challenged” interval.
So, that would possibly rule out Johann “Stairheid Rammy” Lamont, Jackie “Five Bellies” Baillie & Willie “Pet Friendly” Rennie.
What’s the downside?
Instead of folk pulling their hair out over the “lost” SNP list votes, perhaps we should pay some attention to all those lost Labour ones. We know where the expected SNP list votes went, but where the hell did the expected Labour ones go?
This is going unnoticed by many, but it could be crucial. If a significant number of the Labour constituency voters voted for tory on the list, then we could be in for one hell of a fight. Until the analyses are done, the jury’s out.
The more you learn about this system. The more you realise the unionists corrupted it to stop the SNP. They could never have imagined the SNP on 47% of the vote and still 2 short of a majority. Cameron has 37% and a majority of 10 or so.
About STV: “The downsides are that it loses the constituency link prized by voters”.
Not really. Instead of having one MSP representing your constituency, you’d have several MSPs representing your constituency. Even if by some fluke they were all from the same party, they’d still have to work hard at constituency level to retain their first preference votes (FPVs) at the next election. STV has been used in all elections in Ireland for decades and Irish TDs are much more responsive to the concerns of their constituents than UK MPs.
You’re right about (most) constituency by-elections. Any election where there can only be one candidate elected (e.g. Irish presidential elections) effectively turns STV into AV.
I voted STV but would rather have additional members on top.
The way it’d work is that you have a single ballot paper. Entries are for all parties standing in the region with only those contesting the seat named.
The first round of votes might pick a winner but regardless of that votes get saved for later. The election in the constituency then goes ahead as normal.
One all constituencies are filled you proceed to the regional list. The STV election might be slightly slower but the regional list has already been counted so overall it’s faster.
The criticism of AV/STV is that it might favour compromise candidates or still be unfair to minorities. However if it results in a more proportional result you might be justified in fewer list seats.
For the next election I’d go for the same numbers of constituency and list MSPs. Especially if there is a unionist conspiracy to freeze the SNP out.
The main improvement is that it’s always your first vote that counts.
Rev Stu said: “The voters keep voting against people who become MSPs anyway. That’s bad for accountability and may be part of why turnout is low.”
Fair enough, but given the electoral system, what is the alternative? If you prohibit putting the same people on both ballots, you’ll just end up with MSPs who haven’t got a single personal vote.
Just for the record, I think Scotland should go Nordic and introduce a system similar to the one used in Denmark.
The answer is fairly simple.
Scrap the constituency seat. It is utterly unnecessary.
This leaves just the party lists.
OK. Now how do you get rid of someone you don’t want.
The answer is found in Norway.
In Norway you cross off the candidates you do not want to vote for.
This was used very effectively by the feminists in the eighties. They were sick of the fact that women were not being elected so they started a campaign telling women to vote for whatever party they wanted, but to start at the top of the list and cross off names until they came to the first woman. This basically placed the woman at the top of the list.
The result was a sort of “feminist coup d’etat”. A large number of rather surprised men suddenly found themselves without a seat and the same number of equally surprised women found themselves with one.
I said the eighties. Crossing off candidates then only applied to local elections. The present government has recently changed the election law so that crossing off candidates now applies to the General Elections as well. How this is going to play out I do not know. But it does mean that there are no truly safe lists. Voters can get the party of their choice in and remove a particular candidate if they wish. Or if you prefer, they can have their cake AND eat it…
Coincidently, the “Coup” in the eighties forced the parties in Norway to ensure they had balanced lists and resulted in a general increase in the number of women in politics.
Harry Scott, Morag:
Pool list seats nationally instead of by region. There’s no real reasons to tie them to regions anyway, as we have seen with candidates running for list seats many miles from their actual homes
This is what is done in New Zealand, I gather.
I’m slightly worried by some people’s approach, especially those who want full FPTP. Folk seem to want to base the voting system on the current situation. Have we learned nothing from the mistakes of the unionists?
If Holyrood had been purely FPTP in 2007, Labour would have won. It’s only because of the list element that the SNP was able to get 47 MSPs and become a minority government in the first place.
Labour and Tories have always favoured FPTP because it has allowed them to get parliamentary majorities without getting a majority of the vote. That’s why the system will never change at Westminster.
Just because FPTP would suit the SNP right now, doesn’t mean it always will. That kind of hubris is what led to Labour’s downfall, as they assumed the system they put in place to give them a permanent advantage would always give them a permanent advantage. Labour have effectively been hung by their own petard.
Let’s not be like them, eh?
To be honest I’m less upset about this than many others appear to be.
%seats at holyrood matches pretty well to %votes cast so proportionality is fine. The constituencies do keep some ties to local area.
Lets not forget that it wasn’t so long ago that most SNP MSPs (including Sturgeon) were elected by the list having failed to win FPTP constituency.
I can see some attraction in tweeking the system to allow canidiates on the list paper to be ranked in order. either from the entire list, or perhaps bettre within the single party that the voter choses. However I’m not sure that the ballot paper might not end up too complicated. – Remember what happened when that political genius Dougie Alexander organised the Scottish Local elections to run on the same day as Holyrood elections?
I could live with STV, but I think d’hondt isn’t all that bad.
Morag @ 12:19
If someone got near to winning there constituency and only lost by a small margin then that qualifies them to a list seat. But if someone loses spectacularly like many of the list msps then the voters have clearly rejected the idea of them as an msp.
So I stand by the statement that is common sense.
Also my gut instinct is to worry about how tactical unionist voting under STV might impact on next years council elections. But I’m confident this is exactly the sort of topic which Stu and James K are likely to examin in some detail.
So it should have been SNP1/Ruth Davidson CON UNI2 in order to kick the Tories out of Holyrood?
Chris: “I would remove the ‘second’ vote to determine the overall composition of Parliament. Instead the list MSPs would be decided based on the proportion their parties got in the constituency votes in the region. In my opinion this would stop parties trying to game the system, avoid accusations of wasted votes and encourage the electorate to vote for their party of choice rather than tactically.”
I rather like this idea. If nothing else, it would eliminate tactical voting – for instance, a Labour voter couldn’t vote Tory, because then they’d be reducing Labour’s proportion of the vote. So you wouldn’t get Willie Rennie winning a constituency thanks to tactical unionist votes.
And it also means parties can’t try to get elected off the back of nicking list votes off of a more popular party – they’d have to actually do the hard work in constituencies as well.
Even if the parties in Holyrood agree to a different system (fat chance) would it not require the nod from Westminster?
Best to leave as is until we, in an independent Scotland, can start on a fresh page.
PS:
Murdo (tory) and Elaine (lab) throw their hats into the ring now.
The Presiding officer is ‘neutral’ and doesn’t vote having resigned from the party which we all know but the other two deputies can retain their party allegiance and vote.
link to parliament.scot
PPS:
New ship (not built in Scotland) will be anchoring somewhere in the West of the Shetlands soon to exploit (not Scotland’s oil)
and tax of this oil will be going to WM (not Scotland’s friend)
But never mind Eh! We voted NAW!
link to archive.is
PPPS:
Gordon has spoken darn Sarf! Can you hear me running?
Good song…Mike and mechanics.
Swear allegiance to the flag
Whatever flag they offer
Never hint at what you really feel
Teach the children quietly
For some day sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still
Doug Daniel “I’m slightly worried by some people’s approach”
It has bugger all to do with what suits the SNP now.
A duff candidate is a duff candidate no matter which party, especially if they’ve had years in office to prove it.
We complain bitterly about Westminster’s career politicians. Well, we have a system to nurture our own.
Doug Daniel
“Just because FPTP would suit the SNP right now, doesn’t mean it always will. That kind of hubris is what led to Labour’s downfall, as they assumed the system they put in place to give them a permanent advantage would always give them a permanent advantage. Labour have effectively been hung by their own petard.
Let’s not be like them, eh?”
Prescient words, the writing is on the wall.
In response to Breeks, if it was FPTP, The SNP would have 59 seats, Tories seven, LibDems four, Labour three, Greens none.
Even if all 129 seats were FPTP constituency seats, and even if the SNP only got half those extra 56 seats, the result would still have been a big SNP majority, more than 80 seats.
Control over the electoral system has been devolved to Holyrood, subject to a 2/3 majority in Parliament for any changes.
As follows:
Section B3 of the Scotland Act 1998 reserves to Westminster
“Elections for membership of the House of Commons, the European Parliament and the Parliament, including the subject-matter of—
(a)the European Parliamentary Elections Act 2002.
(b)the Representation of the People Act 1983 and the Representation of the People Act 1985, and
(c)the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986,”
The Scotland Act 2016 Section 3 (1) amends the Scotland Act 1998 by removing the words ‘The Parliament’. (the Scottish Parliament) from 1998 B3
Therefore the provisions of the three Acts a, b and c above are no longer reserved to Westminster, and are now controlled by Holyrood
These three acts basically are the whole of electoral law.
Section 11 (5) of the 2016 Act gives the Presiding Officer the duty to require a super-majority of 2/3 of MSPs before an act changing any of:
“a)the persons entitled to vote as electors at an election for membership of the Parliament,
(b)the system by which members of the Parliament are returned
(c)the number of constituencies, regions or any equivalent electoral area, and
d)the number of members to be returned for each constituency, region or equivalent electoral area.”
The Scotland Act 2016, Section 11 (5)(b) is the method of election.
Elect via, D’Hondt AMS, STV, first past the post, best of five scissors paper stone., whatever. Want to ban postal voting on demand? Require ID to vote?
All that is enabled by this section, if 2/3 of MSPs support it.
Maybe they should only be allowed on the list vote if they were narrowly beaten, say 3000 or so, maybe less.
The list would have a second option to choose from if the the main option was heavily rejected.
That would be “closer” to the concept of democracy, as it is the Unionists were rejected on some big figures that should never have allowed any politician to just transfer to the list vote.
That most certainly NOT democracy. Of course that applies to all parties, but the Unionists were the case in point.
What these figure do show is just how bad the actual Unionist vote was, to highlight all this was excellent work Stu.
Greetings from Raleigh, North Carolina. I haven’t voted the other side of the pond since the late 1990’s and in Scotland since 1987. I’m sure things have changed. Is technology properly utilised? If not, why not?
I think most of us could agree that too many people do not understand what they are voting for. So use technology to make it simpler. You go to a booth with a computer screen. Computer guides you through your choices. Constituency is easy. Then select the party you want on the list. From there, rank the candidates. As others have mentioned, this is used in Scandinavia. The next bit is crucial. Once the voter has cast their votes, a print-out is provided. This way, programming errors do not affect the result (it has happened here, where technology is widely-used). Feed the ballot into a scanner, which counts the votes.
This, of course, does not solve the issue of postal votes. If it were up to me, I would return to the rule that a postal vote is for the elderly or infirm, or those who are travelling for work. Do as is done in most states here – have early voting for a couple of weeks before the election. Here in Wake County, NC (about the size and population of Lothian Region) one can vote early at any early voting site in the county. All sites are open on the weekend and most are open until around 7pm on weeknights. Proper use of technology makes it possible. They have every possible combination of ballots available – one year I had Version 32, covering over a dozen races.
The idea behind D’Hondt is that the list vote is a list for the party. I believe that Helmut Kohl never won an election in his life. So make the rejected candidates work for their list votes from those who support that party. I know this system is not perfect. How does the average voter rank a dozen candidates of the same party? It would, though, give a voice to the electorate in deciding whether or not those rejected in the constituency should also be rejected on the list.
Would a time restriction on being allowed on the list be feasible? E.g. to be on the list you can’t have stood unsuccessfully in any election, including Westminster, for, say, 5 years. This would have prevented Sarwar from strolling back in this time, and of course the 46 failed constituency candidates wouldn’t have got in either. This wouldn’t trouble the SNP who have a large pool of talent to choose from.
Saying that though, I do wish my SNP candidate had been on the list, but I think he felt it wasn’t necessary as he was up against Iain Gray – who saw that one coming?
You do know that all your great ideas are pointless,in 2014 we voted as a country to remain in the UK so until that changes discussing electoral systems inside the UK is pissing in the wind.
But think of it this way that could have been the last time we ever use that system because by the time we have to do it again we might be free,so if anything we have possibly one more election like this.
@Derick fae Yell
Thanks for that information.
I thought Davidson stood as a constituency candidate as well as list Number 1?
The main change has to be in postal voting. It has to be tightened up.
there was no mention of electoral reform on any party manifesto
gutted that the labour old guard got in, even a few disgruntled ex slab constituency msps who got the dunt tweeted that kez hadnt even bothered to phone them to comissorate with them since friday
indeed, they also tweeted that kez had not phoned them since the slab list had been published a few months back. an indication that slab had gerry mandered the lists and not everyone was happy
anyways, surely this discussion should have been had before the election? ukip have been whining since 2015 that they got far fewer seats than the snp with a bigger share of the vote. then again, the snp did have electoral reform on its 2015 manifesto, PR and the abolition of the HOL, er, ukip didnt.
this election is past, this thread is for the next election in 2021
time would be better spent discussing the 2017 electoral process, i put forward a motion to the snp spring conference for a line to be added to the council reform section of the manifesto to include reform of the council electoral system. it was rejected. we have no mandate now to reform the council electoral system and will just have to use it.
an explaination of how it works would be more useful
I think it is hard to establish that voters have “rejected” a constituency candidate. You can only vote “for” a candidate. Have those candidates who did not come first past the post been rejected? Not by those who voted for them. Indeed those who voted for the “selected” candidate may be in a significant minority. That is the problem with FPTP.
There is an argument that candidates who actually have a personal vote, even if only up to 1 less than the constituency MP, are more legitimate to include in the Parliament than list MPs who definitely were not voted for on a personal basis.
I favour STV because it is fair and understandable. It increasingly obvious that the FPTP + d’Hondt system we have now is impossible to understand and simply generates heaps of pointless whatabootery.
I think one change which should be made is that the party with the largest number of votes gets first list msp before being devided which will give a stronger parliament and these votes would not be wasted as they have been when voting for the snp on the list this year in most areas.
Why do we want a parliament which is proportional and cant get things done? Westminster is FPTP so that it doesnt produce a coalition but somehow Scotland should almost always have a coalition!
Thanks for the article Stu. Brilliant as usual and yes it’s an absolute disgrace that Holyrood is filled with a bunch of losers, rejects, that the electorate clearly didn’t want. You can see why many people can’t be bothered to vote when they end up with, say, a Tory in Glasgow.
I didn’t vote in your poll because I don’t know if any of the suggestions will have the desired effect. Don’t know enough about it basically.
Has anyone on here studied what’s happening elsewhere for example in Scandanavian countries? I also read somewhere recently that Israel seems to have a fairly decent electoral system. Mmmhh that one would have to be checked out.
Whatever the case something has to be done about this as it’s utterly diabolical for the Scots and makes a farce of all the media bombardment we’ve been getting about the Tories in Scotland basically ‘winning’ the election. Once again you’ve shone a spotlight on the reality of the situation and combatted the media’s propaganda machine.
The only thing that keeps my chin up is that Toothy Moothy Roothy (et al) knows the facts and that is that she’s leading a party of plonkers, in the main, that the Scots didnae want. That and a bunch of the uncontrollable (by her) OO volkssturmmann crew that will no doubt create havoc when the Indyref2 show gets on the road.
You know the old sayings ‘judged by the company that you keep’ and ‘like attracts like’. In this case the despicable Tories at Westminster England and the dregs of humanity in Scotland. Hell mend them. Good enuff fir them.
@Grouse Beater
Of course when Billy Connolly made his unforgivable remark about Scotland’s “Pretendy Parliament” he perhaps should have ruminated on the fact that one day he might be a “Pretendy Comedian” and in that, he has succeeded
Modern lights get brighter with use whereas older lights fade away and burn out (That’s my wee profoundy bit)
Hey, let’s use the data from the appendix above – by that, I mean publicise it far and wide – to remind the red and blue tories that they are represented in parliament by a bunch of rejects.
Why not simply reduce the number of available list seats relative to constituency seats, thereby increasing the value of winning the constituency seat?
I disagree the big yin got it right it is a pretendy parliament always has been and always will be inside the UK.
Doesnt mean i agree with the rest of waffle he spouts but i can assure you he did not come up with the term pretendy parliament he nicked that from us old Labour indy folk as that is what we screamed the day we got our parliament back after figuring out those bastards in westminster and in our own party had screwed us over once again.
Everyone seems to be proud of the fact that Scotland has proportional representation. You may not like D’Hondt but “it does what it says on the tin” as it allocates seats roughly in proportion to how the electorate voted. Living currently under the FPTP system & cognisant of its failings, I would certainly welcome D’Hondt system as a clearly better way to reflect voters wishes.
Surely it’s not too difficult to find a way around the seatwarmers problem. FPTP system just encourages careerists & seatwarmers-once in a seat it’s difficult to get rid of them.
For what it is worth I personally doubt that the voting system has much impact on turn out. I suspect more people vote in Westminster elections as that is percieved to be the more powerful body, then down the pecking order via holyrood to local councils and EU.
If the voting system were responsible for lower turn out, then that would be a pretty poor argument for switching to STV as turn out is even lower for loal governement elections which already operate under STV in Scotland.
Another option which you appear to have overlooked Stu is that no candidate should be allowed to stand on both the constituency FPTP AND the list.
Dr Jim – Connolly was fond of that phrase often used by Slabour politicions:” I am an internationalist”.
Until big brained Pat Kane said:” The word internationalist, contains the word national and nationalist.Without nations the word could never exist and neither could the extension inter. So in order to be an internationalist you accept that there are nations”.
What he was saying was that everyone comes from somewhere as a starting point. People like Connolly think that by being fom Scotland, it makes you narrow minded unless you put it under the UK umbrella. They by default, subordinate Scotland and legitimise the UK, as a legitimate nationality.
So Connolly is simply wrong and the phrase is a misnomer. It’s used to defend the cringe he feels at being Scottish as a stand alone nationality. In other words you cannot be a Scot and broad minded. It says so much about the brainwashing that takes place from cradle to grave in Scotland.
He hangs about with Royals when he should be hanging about with Tommy Sheridan. The Royals use Scotland as a playground and he plays along with the joke.
Nae time for the man!
None of the above. In terms of sitting MSP’s on the list, only party leaders and deputy leaders should be allowed.
What would be wrong with dividing Scotland into 129 (if that is deemed to be the optimum number of MSPs) constituencies and having 129 constituency MSPs all elected by FPTP. Avoids all the problems of ‘undeserving’ MSPs and has a goodish chance of returning a reasonably proportional result.
PS the weather here in Tarbert, Argyll has been braw and looks good for another couple of days… You should have come up for a break….
Had two BBQ dinners already & looking forward to another couple….
The other big problem with any change to the system is that on the Constituency vote, with 22.6% of the vote Labour should have had 29 seats, they got 24. Whereas the Conservatives with 22.0% should have had 28 seats, whereas they got 31. So with the proportional vote the Unionist two parties would have had 2 more seats.
But more than that, which is the best fore Indy? Labour clinging on to 2nd place, the main opposition? Or being humiliated into third place by everyone’s “dreaded Tories”?
I know which I prefer, and it’s what happened.
I rather like our system but agree that the list should open.
In the Netherlands all candidates are listed in their party column in the order selected by the party.
You can either tick the box at the top for the party or tick an individual name. The personal votes can then move a candidate up the list.
In practice most would probably just tick the party. Others would vote for the family, friend or name that they recognise.
I would think that the list MSPs would probably look much the same because it is voters who support that party who are voting for them.
If, say Sarwar, is as unpopular with current Labour voters as he is with non-labour voters then someone else would be voted up the list.
Andy Wightman could have been voted up the list and got in if the Greens had only won one list seat but only if the people voting for the Greens wanted him not because people from other parties think he would be better.
You need another option Stu, as is but with open list.
Stagnant Pool? Rev Stu.
Mair like, “The dead Pool”.
link to imdb.com
O/T
Billy Connolly: He’s made it VERY clear that he doesn’t want Scotland to be Independent. The Scotland that helped him on his way to be (financially) Independent through using us Scots, in a jokey way, by highlighting at every turn how wee, poor and stupid we are.
Wow, where’d you get the pic Rev?
I pop over to Wings and see one of my childhood haunts!
As a wean in Macduff in the ’70s, I used to go to Tarlair all the time.
Took my kids there last year. Sad to see it in such a decrepit state – Aberdeenshire Council unwilling to spend anything on upkeep and probably waiting until it’s condemned so the can pull it down (despite its Category A listing).
In the summer it had a cafe, I remember hanging out, Blondie on the Jukebox, Space Invaders & Galaxians coin-ops. Early ’80s they tried a Music Festival.
Every other winter the weather would chuck wardrobe-sized rocks over (or through!) the wall and fill the pools. Cooncil would get a JCB in and empty them back. Now the changing block is a wreck and the main building is falling down.
Sorry for being so off-topic. We can argue for the next five years about how rubbish the Holyrood voting system is but they’re not going to change it are they?
How about in-depth analysis of the Council Elections voting System and its opportunities/pitfalls, or you can scold me and point me to an old article I’m too lazy to look for just now…
tipping down?
MUST LIVE IN ANOTHER COUNTRY!!!
Like the article though, nice cool drink in the sun reading it through.
The glare is a bit of a bugger though.!!
where’s the factor 50?
Well as more than a few have pointed out we can’t change the voting system without English MPs agreeing to it so any discussion is just that a discussion .
Tony Benn bless him got it right , and by the results the Rev has provided the present system is pish so bin the fair representation junk it doesn’t f/n work not in some bleedn theory but in Practice .
FPTP if a candidate gets within 10 % of that they get a seat if not piss off , life’s a bitch live with it .
O/T. Came out of Scottish Parliament yesterday (don’t ask) and passed a wee huddle of folk including Johann Lamont and Patrick Harvie. Sure I heard Patrick promising to get the Greens to vote for her as Presiding Officer. You heard it here!
By the way, what a great art deco pool, what a waste. Ok, maybe outdoor swimming in Banffshire isn’t a great money spinner but surely it could renovated with additional uses sports/conference/theatre?
Fantastic weather here as well. I’m back out to enjoy it.
For those of you who think FPTP is not the correct way i only have one thing to say the reason FPTP does not work in the UK is because of boundary changes.
This allows sitting MP`s to remove areas inside their constituancy that did not vote for them or bring in areas that backed their party but might have lost that ward ,making it almost impossible for the opposition to win back the ward,FPTP UKOK corrupt style is not what i am suggesting.
Boundary changes are the biggest UKOK fruad on democracy ever and is why most UK governments get 2-3 terms in office regardless if they are complete idiots,it becomes almost impossible to remove them as they can manipulate the vote.
Boundary changes should never be the choice of government but of the constituancy affected it should be their choice if an area should move to another constituancy not a political party.
FPTP does work just not when you let political parties who have won elections change the goal posts.
Interesting to see the comments about Billy Connolly. I thought I was the only person who didn’t like the man. I’ve always thought of him as a latter day Harry Lauder: using where he came from as material to make a quick buck, whilst rising about it to mingle with his social superiors.
The last Labour government in Westminster legislated to prevent candidates standing for both constituency and list seats in Wales (when Peter Hain was Secretary of State for Wales. This rule applied to the 2011 election but was repealed by the Tories just before the recent Assembly election. Interesting that the same issue now arises in Scotland.
Tarlair in the 60s…
Did Labour look that good back then?
Tarlair now:
link to buildingsatrisk.org.uk
See last week’s news for the state of Labour now.
tarlair
jethro tull played there in the 90s
crowd on the rock cliffs around like a natural ampitheatre
Greannah: “Interesting to see the comments about Billy Connolly”
Billy Connolly: link to wp.me
I don’t see this as being a problem with the system.
If the Unionist parties want to foist these deadwood politicians on their supporters by list, if they cannot do it by constituency, that is their prerogative. I doubt that it will attract a rush of new members to their parties and that is just fine with me.
I suspect that many of the dyed-in-the-wool Unionist voters do not care about the name or calibre of the person who sits in Holyrood, just so long as they are “their Party” and not SNP.
Life as a list MSP a lot harder than being a Constituency MSP. There is a much larger area to cover, and no more time to do it in. The ex-constituency MSPs are going to find the travelling a burden, if they do the job properly. It will be up to the constituents to see that they do.
Billy Connolly: I recently heard him crack a joke at a show that I can confirm I heard at primary school …. in the mid-1970s!!
He is a typical 90-minute ProudScotBut judging by the way he and Judi Dench turned up in cringe-worthy “shortbread-style” tartan rags at the premiere of “Mrs Brown”…
I never found him funny at all! He is crude, yes, but you can find that in a school playground. Personally, I think Americans do humour better anyway…
Billy Connolly stopped being funny when he stopped talking about where he came from.
I believe it was probably the late Eighties when he was Billy big time doon sooth. The exact moment was when he made a joke about Johoba Shampoo. Then it was onto hanging about wth Charles, making films about Queen Victoria and being seen with the luvvies.
The guy is an oxymoron. He says he believes in less bureacracy and detests patriotism. So he wants power over Scotland centralised in London. Long to reign over us. The moncarchy are the most patriotic and anachronistic relic of nationhood still in existance. He likes them but hates Scotland taking democracy back to the people who live there.
He is to understanding politics as Donald Trump is to understanding world peace.
I dont have any major beef with the current system. It is pretty proportional which is hard to argue with. The one enhancement is in the ranking of party list candidates. It is parties who choose this ranking rather than voters.
So for example, in Lothian Alison Johnstone topped the list for the Greens despite being known for fuck all. Whereas if you wanted to get respected campaigner Andy Wightman elected you had to hope the Greens got enough list votes for two MSPs.
However if the electorate could choose their list party and then the party ranking, there would be no doubt Wightman would have topped that list.
The downside is that the paperwork required at the ballot box may be impractical.
I love Sledger’s idea of turnout related pay for Members!
A massive injustice in electoral terms, mainly for the people of those constituencies, but also for the parties themselves surely.
The simplest change to make of course is not to allow the same name to appear in both positions. If there is no new talent, then there is no new talent to put forward in that region and that is down to that party’s choice. What you cannot do IMO is put forward the same bod twice effectively giving them two bites at the proverbial. If a person is rejected by the population of a constituency its a pretty safe bet they have a good reason for rejecting that person. To then float them on the list party ticket is simply throwing their vote back in their face.
Personally, from the choices above, I quite like the Rev’s idea as a replacement for the current system.
how about if the leaders had a bare chested fight and the winner got the majority,which would be The Lovely Nicola,
then say, The Ruthfuhrer fought Mad Kezzy for second place,
Wee Wullie and Procrastinating Patrick could hold the jerseys.
makes about as much sense as the system we have.
There are moves afoot to bring the Tralair swimming pool back to public use. There has been for some time. There could be plans coming in the pipe line depending on budgetary constraints etc. A nice area for a visit.
There’s an awful lot of yoon culture that is going to take an actual generation to change, tory BBC led media gerrymandering Holyrood elections, probably forever and dudes like Billy Connoly, who got rich mocking drunkard Glasgow. And who loved him for it, the BBC.
I confess to being a bit of an anorak – I like the D’Hondt system.
It has a decisive constituency element. It gives a considerable degree of proportional fairness. It’s hard to “game” successfully as we have discovered.
I think the Party lists should be “open”. It’s not only party members who vote for the parties’ candidates, and this would allow new blood in and prevent abuse by party hacks with deep pockets or a notebook full of other people’s indiscretions.
It avoids all the “cunning plan” attempts to get round who we would have liked to have benefitted, while chucking out our list of those we like to hate.
If D’Hondt is complicated it’s probably best not to make it worse by too many extra combinations/ exclusions/extra rules for those we don’t like. The party list exists – people have an idea who is top of it – so ticking the candidate on your list wouldn’t be much of a stretch.
I don’t like STV – too easy to “game” – a two-edged sword.
It seems to me that it would be fairer to abolish FPTP for constituency seats. All only one candidate from each party and apply the mechanics of PR. I have not really thought it through. it’s my spontaneous response.
BBC QT this week in Aberdeen Ruth D from winning party in recent Scottish elections is on …..sound man at BBC beware as she is known to be often very shouty (with an ‘ou’ not an ‘i’ and double ‘t’) ,constantly interrupts and is generally very badly behaved in what is supposedly meant to be a civilised debate but in reality is a glorification of all things unionist.
Can we expect a rerun of Dundee QT audience with different people ( perhaps) but same voices ? I say watch the audience and note their names and follow the line of questioning….I sense a Tory revival theme and the appetite for independence is now diminishing mantra, people want to move on, hold SNP to account ( that old yoon chestnut…again…. yawn… but not mention WM Govt. policies or Euro Tory infighting ok),perhaps a sprinkling of what’s happened to Labour party…is it the Corbyn factor? no mandate second referendum in fact a Tory unionist political propaganda broadcast.
And if that was not enough to tempt you they also have Alex Massie …yeh….Lord Falconer…yeh…no Lib Dem…aw….or UKIP….aw….and last but not least Lesley Riddoch and John Nicolson , the two token pro Indy panelists, which is fair enough as Scotland is now a Pro Unionist country what with Tories winning election last week.
And lets not forget impartial Dimbleby ….what the friggen hell is not to like eh…you tell me….must see TV…replace yir tin foil hat with a union jack cap….cause they will be rolling out da barrel and we’ll have a barrel of fun , roll out da barrel cause we’ve got the BLUES on da run…
I have lost the friggin plot …stop the world….don’t want to get off just want a real dose of reality Scottish style which sadly ain’t gonna come from watching BBC QT…Abloodymen to that.
Just saw that Carwyn Jones and Leanne Wood have tied in the election for First Minister of the Welsh Assembly. 29 votes each.
As I said a couple of threads ago, better be nice to the Greens because the SNP need their votes if Ms Sturgeon is to become FM.
The other point about Connolly is his support of Celtic!
His love of the union, if we can call it that. Does not sit well with the working class traditions of Celtic. Mind you the same could be said for warmonger John Reid.
They appear to support one thing and then another contradictory thing at the same time. Cognotive Dissonance.
That could describe the entire Scottish Labour party.
I abhor the STV voting system there is nothing proportional about it. I regularly fume about the Scotland haters transferring their votes to each to keep us down and prop up the corrupt incompetent Brit Nat Regimes like one that is running Moray Council.
I would like to see the STV system for the next Council elections abolished as they are nothing more than a means of propping up Brit Nat control of most of Scotlands Councils. We need rid of them before the next Referendum quite frankly.
It is a pity we cant choose the candidate ranking in the present system but then not everybody is politically knowledgeable enough to truly make that work.
I am quite content to see the SLAB old guard back to drag their Party deeper into the electoral abyss where they belong. So I am not really thinking of changing the system that they invented to keep Scotland down. It makes the coming fight simple for me, it is Scotland versus the Scot hating British Tory Party.
Boundary changes are necessary because of rise and fall of population in different areas as per representative members. Representation is links to population. It is supposed to bring a regulated elected members to numbers of the electorate. E.g. 1 representative to the same number proportionate of the electorate. I.e. 1 representative per the same % of the electorate.
It is supposed to be nothing to do with the Gov at all. Their only responsibility is to make sure the organisational elements conform to the guidelines. To give conformity of representation. 1 rep per same proportionate number of the electorate (as a %). 1 rep per x thousand? of electorate – in unison. For equality and fairness.
Made this point previously. Don’t think the D’Hont system was set up to let LOSERS like Sarwar, Lamont, and oh aye the leader Duggie in, as I think she once put it “in through the back door”
Pretty miserable system when, as you point out, 44 are constituency rejects.
But then they have no shame, Is Sarwar bothered that he was booted out as an MP, then rejected as an MSP. Na. He will line up in Holyrood to hold the SNP to account. FFS.
O/T see the Gordy monster has woken from his slumber. still pacing up and doon though preaching project fear.
Could religion be kept out of politics? If possible. Thanks – same for football. Or even American citizens who are irrelevant to Holyrood Elections. Don’t even have a vote.
Connolly even stated, – he was staying completely out of it? ‘No comment’. Did he? He could be extremely when reminiscing. He brought a lot of money – trade into Scotland. Worldwide sales etc. tourism. Ex pats. The disaporia
The voting system in Scotland is far preferable to any other in the UK.
It maintains a constituency link. It’s simple to understand – the parties are ‘topped up’ to reflect the vote share in the second vote across the regions. It’s produced Parliaments that broadly reflect the vote at every election, and the difficulty of obtaining a majority has forced politicians to debate rather than simply argue. Even small parties like the socialists or Greens or UKIP are in with a fair chance of representation.
The lack of dramatic ‘Portillo moments’ and high-profile beheadings of political figures is a very small price to pay when weighed up against all the advantages.
For Westminster we are stuck with the exciting but unfair and unrepresentative FPTP. You guys up in Scotland should be trying to win the arguments rather than getting sidetracked trying to meddle with what is a very good voting system.
Legerwood, yep and it seems the only Lib Dem voted with Labour to keep Leanne out.
The biggest problem with doing away with regions is that you let acts of god, as in weather, decide turnout which in turn decides the overall balance. Storms in one part of the country might reduce those who turn out whilst sunny dry conditions in another increase it.
How did Kez vote, Rev?
Oh wait….
Welsh Assembly: Deadlock in vote for first minister
link to archive.is
PS: 🙂
36% of Scots believe Scottish Labour is ‘finished’ – poll
link to archive.is
Out of interest, how many goes did it take before Nicola Sturgeon managed to win a FPTP election?
Ken football is part of life as well. The point was made to provide an example of his Cognotive Dissonance.
He didn’t stay out of the referendum. He chose the status quo over change. So he was backing no!
Dave I am surprised it’s only 36%!
@Big Jock
Aye I know but the dandelions and the daisies are always there too
The remedies never quite do the trick.
🙂
I voted restricting losers seats… but think the number should be limited to one per region… 7 in total nationwide.
O/T
@ Big Jock says at 4:19 pm …. ”The other point about Connolly is his support of Celtic!”
I don’t think that matters either way Big Jock. Lulu seemingly supports Rangers and she’s another ‘Scot’ that’s taken it on herself to speak out in interviews on behalf of the whole Scottish nation, in particular Glasgow, by reinforcing the stereotypical mean, violent drunken Scot; and how the rest of the UK just loves it …. hanging onto their every word with bated breath.
They both grew up in families where their alcoholic fathers seriously abused them. That’s sad but it’s not everyone’s familial experience and they shouldn’t portray it as such …. just speak for themselves and not project their psychological baggage onto others. Great how a wee bit of fame, and mixing with THEIR supposed betters, goes straight to their head and turns their brains to sludge (suffering from the I am the unelected Scottish ambassador syndrome) or is more about just making a fast buck.
Stu the reason why Westminster elections get a higher turnout is because of the unending media hype that precedes them for weeks on end.
We still get the vast majority of our TV from London; this is a perfect example of how that translates into behaviour and attitudes.
If a Party gets nearly 50% – + higher% than any other party they should have a majority.
The Green (Indy supporters?) are backing Lamont. Who believes half of the people of Scotland are viruses. Along with her Parties members who believes people in Scotland are ‘not fit to run their own affairs’. Has that been discussed or does it have Green members sympathies. Has that been confirmed?
O/T
@ Ken500 says at 4:34 pm …. ”Connolly even stated, – he was staying completely out of it? ‘No comment’.
He’s actually made of number of comments about Scottish Independence and Nationalism. All negative.
Wow, Tarlair outdoor swimming pool where I learned to swim. It’s in Macduff on the Moray firth coast where I was born
My take on Billy Connolly has always been – he stopped being funny the day he came out as a Celtic fan.
In the early part of his career, he never admitted to a definite preferred football team, but, hinted at being a Partick Thistle fan – which sort of suited his image.
“the constituency link prized by voters”
For how many voters is this true? I woke up on Friday to find that my MSP was Ruth Davidson. The Tories were the only party who didn’t chap my door in the run-up to the vote. (Sarah Boyack appeared in person, twice!) I didn’t come across a single leaflet, never mind a poster, making a ‘link’ between people living in this area and Ruth Davidson. She didn’t even try.
I agree with carjamrics thoughts @1.26 regarding the need for exit polls and about restricting postal votes to those who would be unable to vote in any other way. I find it strange that fit and healthy people who know they will be in the country for the vote can’t be bothered walking a few hundred yards to the local primary school or hall. There is also the problem of temporary residents like students and holiday-homers who seem to be able to play the system.
No voting system is perfect but making changes to the above arrangements would ease my mind a bit about the 2017 elections. I also think the SG could do with trying to educate the electorate on what the STV system means. Confusion and misinformation are the Yoonsters’ friends.
And deeply depressing to see the list of deadbeats in the The Rev’s article, matched only by the possibility of Johann Lamont, aka Stalin’s Grannie Mk.III, becoming PO. How can someone who called nationalism a virus possibly be impartial?
I’d prefer even Toryboy to that grim prospect.
Sorry, but this is an absolute non-issue with me. I celebrated the introduction of proportional systems in both Holyrood & local government elections, and nothing that’s happened makes me want to return to FPTP for anything – those steps by themselves ended the Labour stranglehold which held us all back for decades.
While having an open list might help to keep out the most objectionable candidates in any party, I’m willing to let parties in the end decide who their representatives are – and if they are folk who can’t get themselves elected on a straight vote, why should anyone fear them.
Waste of time
It may have been hinted already earlier, but can we not have a hybrid version?
For he constituency vote use FPTP, and for the list vote use STV, making allowances for votes cast on constituency.
The present system, although ostensibly proportional is blatantly not fair.
The difference between voter % for GE and HE is closing. HE was 55%. (norm) A change from one of 40%. If this system continues it could go down again, I.e. ‘Why bother’. One step forward, two steps back. UK GE have regularly got 55+%.
Re Indy Ref One comment that was reported re Connolly – on TV from his own mouth. ‘He was staying out of it’. Smile – ‘No comment’. It could have changed at some point. Love him or dislike him. He certainly put Scotland on the Map (worldwide). A positive Ambassador.
The only way to change the present outcome. If voters wisen. If SNP/Independence. Or more Independence minded than Party. Always vote SNP both. Never deviate.
GE are really important as long as Westminster keeps on deciding taxation, taking Tax money from Scotland and deciding how to spent it. Against majority in Scotland’s wishes. That is one of
the main problems.
carjamtic, sorry.
Johann Lamont has a terrible effect on me noives.
For me the worst aspects of the current AMS system are (a) the unnecessary complication of two votes when one ought to suffice, and (b) the fact that list MSPs are effectively chosen by party hacks and not by the voter. AMS is nothing more than a crude “bodge” tacked on to FPTP to make it somewhat less of a democratic affront.
I don’t believe this “constituency link” issue is nearly as important as advocates of FTFP and AMS claim. Multi-member Scottish council wards work perfectly well – if you have an issue you can approach whichever councillor (of whichever party or none) you prefer. They generally tend to “load-share”, devoting their attentions to those areas in which their own party supporters are most numerous. The arrangement also tends to encourage inter-party co-operation.
No voting system is perfect, but the simple choice STV offers voters to place candidates in a simple ordered list (with as few or as many selected as they wish) is very easy to understand, and offers the possibility of a true tactical vote for those inclined to exercise one.
Best of all, it eliminates the most unsatisfactory aspect of AMS – this unhappy divide between “first-class” and “second class” MSPs.
The Sainte-Laguë method is named after the French mathematician André Sainte-Laguë, and is similar to the current system used to allocate seats on Holyrood list vote.
link to en.wikipedia.org
It was proposed by the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition government in 2011 as the method for calculating the distribution of seats in future elections to the House of Lords before reform of the upper chamber was dropped.
link to archive.is
Who are these campaigners?
UK industry in recession for third time in eight years
link to archive.is
Among the ruins…
However, the oil and gas industries saw sharp gains, increasing production 17% in February, and 10.9% in March from the same months a year earlier.
Things change since 2000. Using 2003 etc elections to illustrate now, is not helpful. Without comparing the differences. Voter turnout age, gender etc. Electoral numbers. No of 16/17 year old etc. The same SNP progression is likely to happen in any case. It is likely it could/would have still happened. Under any system. E.g. same happened GE but FPTP. Still increased.
Scottish entertainers
When in Scotland they toady up to whichever side of the city they think will buy more of their product (Rod Stewart) big case in point
When these same entertainers are in England they become Scottish accented Brits big time and their whole tone alters to sell their product down there
Thus it is thus it will always be, even with Independence
The only thing they do wrong is when they open their big stupid mouths and answer questions on politics which they should never do, instead making it clear the ballot box and their conscience is a private matter
Because the big mouthed gossipy English right wing press will bellow it print it and show it on the telly for all they’re worth because they loathe us that much and hope it will also damage the nitwits who allow themselves to be put in the position
I’ll just leave this name: Stanley Baxter
O/T Maybe.
Heavy police presence at St Giles Cathedral today about 3.s0.
had to go for train.
Any Ideas?
Were Connelly’s ‘Pretendy Parliament’, ‘Nationalist’ comment not made nearer the time the Parliament was set up? 2000 + A lot of people were making ribald comments. Even those who totally agreed with Devolution etc. (Having a laugh). Not at the time of the Ref 2014.
The ‘I am staying out of it’ laugh ‘No comment’ seemed to relate to him getting a lot of stick previously for comments. Or he must have been making different comments, of which folk are unaware. His health seemed to be failing at the time. The helicopter crash period. Nov 29 November, 2013.
Robert Kerr at 6.03pm
Brenda’s eldest Charlie was there apparently.
@Robert Kerr says:
Prince Chucky was at the kirking of the Scottish parliament.
Peter Bone, Conservative MP for Wellingborough, spewing more of his anti-Scottish hatred today.
Unionists are such nice people.
IMO there should be the present system with one small change.
There should only be one vote. Initially they should allocate FPTP constituencies. Then all the votes across each region should be added up and deliver the top up from a party list, as now.
Simple.
Easier to understand. One vote. One party. A concept which is well established.
The Rev’s point about rejects being voted in doesn’t bother me. They are top ups for parties and therefore the party’s choice. If you don’t like the party, or those at the top off the list, don’t vote for them.
What about small parties, some will say. Tough. I don’t like the idea there are two levels of party, one which stands in every seat, and one which only appears on lists. I think this is getting in by the back door. The list should be to top up not deliver alternatives.
So how do small parties get started when it costs about £40k to put a candidate up in every constituency? Perhaps the cost should not be per constituency, but a lower one off for all. Say £10000.
Please, more comments from Ken500.
Why can’t he be commissioned to write whole articles?
I guess I am with Morag and Doug on this.
However the real change that is really, really really, really needed must be to:
BAN BLOODY POSTAL VOTES, as many other EU countries have done due to potential of massive fraud.
@Edmund says: 11 May, 2016 at 4:36 pm:
“You guys up in Scotland should be trying to win the arguments rather than getting sidetracked trying to meddle with what is a very good voting system.
Aye! and perhaps you guys outwith Scotland should remember that the Establishment of England has imposed EVEL upon the, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of Her United Kingdom”.
Yet there actually is not a single matter in that den of iniquity that is English only. That is because it is, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of her United Kingdom”, established on 1 May 1707 by the Treaty of Union 1706/7.
Thus it is, “Her Majesty’s Treasury of Her United Kingdom”, that funds every single item in Her, (three country), English Kingdom. There is no such Treasury nor any such funding as England, (the country). England, the country, is being funded, and treated, as Her Majesty’s United Kingdom – which it clearly is not for the English Kingdom on 1 May 1707 had annexed Wales in 1284, (Statute of Rhuddlan), and annexed all Ireland in 1542, (by The Crown of Ireland Act).
Thus, “The Treaty of Union, (1707), undeniably a legal bipartite treaty between the two equally sovereign Kingdoms of Scotland and the three country Kingdom of England.
Under which bipartite treaty it is totally illegal to have the bipartite parliament split up on the lines of countries, as opposed to a Kingdoms.
The figures are such that Her Majesty’s parliament has stacked the parliament against one of her two former kingdoms. There are at present:-
533 England Members.
59 Scotland members.
40 Wales Members.
18 Northern Ireland Members.
That is there are 533 England Members who thus can outvote the 59+40+18=117 A.N.Others as follows:-
533-117=416 a clear England majority of 416 over all others. Yet the English are so frightened of losing Scotland that the brought in this evil EVEL legislation which will assure that the United Kingdom has ultimately legislated itself out of existence.
Tick! Tock! Tick! Tock!
It’s comin yet fir aa that.
Ruthy MacThatcher. I like that lets rub it in.
Maybe some way to penalise unpopular candidates?
One ballot paper.
If, as a party, you don’t win a constituency, your candidate’s votes go in a nationwide pot. Then you can use that vote pot to top up votes for each of your candidates so they match the winning candidate’s total. So someone who lost by 100 votes will only need 100 votes from the pot to become an MSP. But someone who lost by 10,000 would use a big chunk to get through.
Haven’t thought it through, but it *seems like* you would get a proportional system if you choose the most popular of your candidates to be MSPs. But if you wanted to force through unpopular candidates, then you would have fewer MSPs. But that case wouldn’t be proportional… So…
Vote for your choice of diddy for presiding eejit
link to tinyurl.com
Limited choice, couldnae rate none o them.
I’m just delighted some people who voted No seem to be commenting on Wings, come on people come forward and let’s hear more of what your thoughts are on everything, we’re not enemy you know, just people with differing views…it’s good to talk…let’s find common ground 🙂
Oh look at the state of Duncan Hothersall on that Labour uncut article…hahahaha…he’s losing it…again:
:large
Also in the commons today
Alberto Costa (the wee Skoddish maffioso greaseball in Lie cester)
“May I also congratulate Oliver Mundell on his election to the Scottish Parliament?
Will the Secretary of State confirm that he will continue to champion the Scotland Act 2016, which he steered through the House and which has given so many powers to the Scottish Parliament to ensure that the Scottish people continue to benefit from being not only in the UK, but in the EU?”
Odious little git.
Hands up, I don’t really know anything about it, but would anyone know, are we getting hammered on the postal vote side of things.
The photo brings back child hood memories. it’s Tarlair beside Macduff.
The problem with leaving it as it is, means you are agreeing to a system specifically designed to limit the power exercised by the SNP or any party outwith Westminster control. It was a system created to control Scotland,not liberate it.
Some not well supported Parties can’t get members. There is limited choice because of such low numbers. So can’t get enough credible members to stand. They only have a choice or can chose from incompetents. Especially if they are unpopular becaues of previous behaviour. Those who can do. Those who can’t join Unionist Parties. The SNP is funded by it’s members so can make economic gov choices more freely. No vested external presure from outside interests. = good governance.
Parties do get Gov funding enbloc, for electoral administration and expenses. It goes by nos of elected members seats etc. Separate from each individual members expenses. Small parties do get funding for these expenses. Covers loses. At Westminster it can be £Millions even for smaller Parties.
UKIP Got £Millions £134Million? There were arguments with Farague and elected UKIP MP (s), because Farague wanted to get his hands in it and take more (extra) than the MP was prepared to claim. To fund the Party. The MP wasn’t happy because he wanted to keep it right. Big argument. Big fall out. There are political rules. Political Parties are not supposed to be funded by non allocated public money. They are supposed to raise other Funding separately. Members or donations or contribution. Supposed to be strict Political rules. If broken it is electoral fraud. Punishable by prison. Some politicians have gone to prison for electoral fraud. It is classed as embezzlement.
Out of interest, is this the first time the d’hondt system has directly influenced the difference between a hung parliament and an outright majority? Isn’t it perhaps a quirk of the vote rather the system itself being faulty?
I’m curious specifically how the SNP got their outright majority last time and not this time. What changed? Why didn’t the same d’hondt system reel in their majority last time with list seats designed to offset the SNP’s majority?
Have you all noticed that after last weeks Elections all over the “U.K.”. Scotland’s Parliament was portrayed as having elected a “Minority” potential government by all the M.S.M. However no mention of a similar position in the Welsh Assembly!! Now see what is reported today when the Welsh Assembly is attempting to appoint a First Minister. Come on Leanne Wood. Both she and Carwyn Jones are tied in a 29-29 draw. The M.S.M. at their worst.
@ cearc Sorry for not getting back to you sooner been busy shopping getting things ready for
link to facebook.com hope to see you soon
It’s all swings and roundabouts. The first two parliaments saw a lot of SNP MSPs from the list who didn’t win in the constituency.
What matters to me more is that the best representatives of each party are there so there are no excuses from the opposition about a one party state.
question time in aberdeen tomorrow
mundell
dugdale
yousaf
sillers
and someone from financial times/sunday post merryn somerset webb
link to twitter.com
@ cearc Sorry for not getting back to you sonner been busy shopping & getting things ready for
link to facebook.com
last post disappeared.
@ stop making veiled threats about any Greenie blocking Nicola for FM. (Being nice to Greenies? etc) It has been noted. Typical Greenie. They do act like Brownies, looking for smarties. { : > ) } yellow smiley face or not? ? In honour of Trump the great green donator. Along with the other donations $ cheques which flowed into the coffers to fund the big campaign. From Landowners and abroad. The international family. Kerr Ching. The louder the squeals, the bigger the total. Never mind what the local majority felt. They had to be telt.
@That would be the final straw. Go for it. There would be riots in the streets of Edinburgh and elsewhere, pitchforks would be out.
It might be more productive to grow some organic vegetables and sell them at the street market. The random boxes are said to be very popular. More so than the smarties.
Much has been made of our lack of an SNP overall majority. This is deceptive. SNP governed over most of the last parliament from a minority position as it supplied the Speaker, lost three members who went independent and lost one on a domestic abuse conviction. So with the opposition supplying the speaker this time the SNP position is now exactly the same.
QT is that all Unionist majority again. Won’t be watching. The BBC will never learn. Totally non self aware.
£3.7Billion for that nonsense. (Enough to relieve poverty) They have to cut it £100Million (austerity). The luvies are moaning.
@ Epic convoy.
That looks brae. Good luck. An adventure especially in fine weather. Watch the midges. Avon preparations. Does the trick every time. Any dogs – mind the lymes tabs.
Lethally mediocre MSPs and the plain inept are as bad as each other. It doesn’t matter what party they represent. The last thing the electorate want is a kind of perpetual picnic for the hard of hearing paid for by the public purse.
When a doctor or consultant proves severely wanting in his medical practice, or is accused of it, he or she gets hauled up before the Medical Council and asked to explain why their standards are unacceptably low.
No such supervisory system applies to politicians in our voting system. The poorest of the poor come bouncing back, and believe me, an inept politician can be as bad as a dilatory doctor.
The voter in any democracy is supposed to be the judge, but under our cockeyed system empowerment is rendered null and void.
Of course, all governing administrations have their quota of idiots, freeloaders, and the useless. But that isn’t the dilemma. The question is, how does our system avoid re-election by default? It has to be earned.
In altering a system that exists we have to check what the consequences are of the changes we think might produce a higher standard of political representative who justifies re-election. Stuart in his topic above does exactly that; he puts up choices, states the plusses and minuses – which is good logic.
It’s clear to me that an MSP rejected in a constituency vote, but brought back to parliament with a low regional vote has to have a problem justifying their existence, especially if it’s their second or third time around.
The follow-on question surely is, how do we attract new, dynamic talent when we have a system that encourages the indolent and the useless to do absolutely nothing to get re-elected? There has to be a cut-off point beyond which a candidate is told – go home.
What are to be the value standards of re-election?
That’s a valid question to debate.
Broadsword calling Ronnie Boy, Broadsword calling Ronnie Boy:
Good Luck. Beware Brora Contingent Hell’s Grannies.
Over and out.
Ronnie,
I sent you an email.
I would say stopping candidates standing in both constituency and list seats, like labour used to do, would solve the problem.
@Kevin
“Common sense would suggest if someone is not supported in the constituency seat by such a margin they should not be allowed to get in by the back door.”
Understandable reaction, however we must remember that success for a candidate in the list is dependent on the total regional vote for their party and on their position on the list.
Also, low percentage attained in a constituency does not necessarily reflect a fair assessment of a candidate’s ability.
For example, a Labour candidate drawing the short straw and standing in a Tory safe seat.
Fair accountability is a devilish thing to accommodate.
OT Received my EU propaganda brochure from HM Gov through the door today.
It is interesting that when Cameron was tinkering around the edges before and during his renegotiation there must have been significant drawbacks with the EU or benefits to leaving as his support for remaining in the EU was conditional on securing new terms. On that he was quite clear. Hell- why are we even having this discussion if it is completely cut and dry?
For the UK to go full project fear in the HM Gov propaganda is abysmal- there is not even a pretence that there exists a different view even though the government’s position a few short months ago was that if we didn’t get what we wanted, ie if our relationship with the EU did not significantly change Cameron would support leaving.
We are paying for the government to feed us propaganda. Aye- not exactly news I know.
Anyway- the propaganda tells us this is a once in a generation decision. Was there a law created that I haven’t picked up on that stated you cannot revisit a referendum question more than once in generation? The tories dragged us to this EU referendum and now they are telling us we can’t revisit the question anytime soon? Democracy is coming across as a right old pain in the arse for the establishment… like having to fill in a tax return or visiting a relative you can’t stand.
Have Gove, Boris, Farage or IDS been asked repeatedly to rule out a second referendum within a generation? How do they feel about this issue being apparently resolved for a quarter of a century through some newly invented convention if the vote goes against them? The answer to those questions will be most revealing in our context
@ Breeks
It has to do with the 1st vote Breeks if the SNP had won the same number of constituancies as last time then the list would have giving us a few list MSP`s,this time we smashed the 1st vote which cost us on the list.
I pointed out before the only way the SNP could have got a majority was if they dropped out the 1st vote in certain areas letting another party win that seat and picking up list MSP`s,which in itself its just plain daft to try.
Last time we won the majority because Labour won seats and we picked up the list MSP`s.
Though anybody saying SNPx2 was bad is talking out a hole in their arse,if we had put the second vote to another party then you could be looking at Ruth tank girl as FM in a yoon coalition.
Good luck with the convoy. Could I suggest to be a damp squib, splitting into small groups over single track parts, to allow the likes of doctors, midwives and ordinary punters (like me for instance) going about business, to make progress coming the other way, and be able to overtake if going the same way?
Don’t forget to use passing places to allow overtaking!
The Presiding Officer gets another £103,000? Does that include MSP salary, then+ expenses. Looks like it. Another £40,000? Don’t rate any of the candidates, especially Murdo Fraser. Lots of the new intake have 2nd jobs, businesses, interests. It will be interesting to see Mr Burnett whose family owns half of Deeside, Interests declaration, it might be quite long and large. No comment.
The basic salary is quite low (depending on expenses) for the responsibility, for the top Cabinet posts of qualified people.
Playing devils advocate with the poll results so far, wouldn’t it be true to say that the SNP benefited to an extent pre 2011 from the current electoral system?
On another subject I know we have been classifying blairite labour and the lib sums as closet Tories but for me the best way to classify the 3 are as neoliberal. Interestingly the first UK party to adopt the neo-liberal approach was labour during the Callaghan govt.
@ DerekM
+ Precisely. Totally Nightmare.
Everybody who supported Independence/SNP must stick to SNP x 2. The deviants cost more seats. It only needs a small number of transfered votes (proportionately) to tip the balance, if everyone stick to same 1st + 2nd Party choice. it would change to similar to FPTP. Take out the deviation. If people really want to deviate, that is their choice but they should realise the danger.
If Davidson had got in. It would have been a disasterous danger to the economy./society Combined with Cameron who doesn’t care. Especially added to the inexperience and incompetence. It just does not bear thinking about. That is what make people so anxious and worried.
K1 @ 6:44
My name is Thomas, and I am a Yoon!
I have been reading sites such as this, BC, CS and others for several years now and whilst obviously not agreeing with a lot of the politics, I do enjoy the articles and BTL debate.
I have often wanted to join the debate with an ‘outsider’ perspective, as you have asked nicely here is some thoughts on the current voting system.
I think the FPTP plus AMS method is about as fair as we’re going to get. The make up of Holyrood is broadly inline with how the votes where spread.
I’m sure if we looked at previous elections then the List contingent would probably be mostly made up from failed FPTP candidates so the idea of MSP’s rejected by the voter doesn’t concern me, indeed I think we vote in favour of a candidate rather than reject the other candidate s.
Stu’s article sometime back, AMS for dummies (I think) was the best explanation of how the system works, and frankly if after reading that voters can’t get their head round the system then there’s no reason to believe STV will prove any easier to understand. I believe most people are upset with the result rather than the system.
Reason I mentioned that was I was told about a midwife trying to get through to a birth behind a convoy of 30 capmpervans a few years back. Luckily she had a mobile and called the polis, they herded the capervans into a field and let them out at 2 minute inervals.
Probably a good idea to get some police guidance, if the organisers haven’t already. It could be a matter of life and death if the convoy is big enough.
Head’s wasted (streaming with the cold). That was between Durness and Tongue.
Can’t stand that Costa. He is abnoxious. He should go for an extra long coffee break on expenses, as per usual.
@Ken500
I’m afraid there’s no defending Billy Connolly I can’t lay my hand on the exact comment but there was even worse to come from the politically ill informed and downright dense Mr Connolly when he likened Nationalism of the SNP type to the old Nazi stuff and nonsense
The trouble with Billy is by the time he left Scotland as a Labour guy his head was full of what he was told by other zoomers in the Labour party so had no knowledge of what he was talking about when he said what he said
I think of it a bit like Councillor Terry Kelly (except he’s not funny) he knows not what he says because he’s an idiot and he can’t learn any different because he never wanted to and would refuse if given the chance
The difference between the two though is people pay attention to Billy Connolly and those people think he’s a representative person who’s views are relevant
and given he does understand that he shouldn’t, and as you rightly said, at one point didn’t give his opinion
BTW I’ve not got a down on him, he is who he is and deservedly so
I’m just against celebrities thinking that their opinion is more valid than yours or mine or the postman’s who have no public voice
Here’s another name I’ll just leave…. Michelle Mone
I would keep the current system but change the way the list MSPs are selected.
All list MSPs should have to stand for a constituency seat.
Instead of the parties deciding the order of candidates on the list, the order should be decided by the electorate.
For each party for each region, candidates who fail to win their constituency seat should be ranked according to the percentage of votes they won in their respective constituencies. The candidate with the highest percentage of votes gets the first list seat awarded to their party. The one with the second highest percentage gets the next seat their party is awarded on the list and so on for each party.
This method keeps some linkage between list MSPs and regions but gives the electorate some ability to decide which list MSPs deserve a seat and which ones don’t. It would prevent the likes of Anas Sanwar from not standing in a constituency and getting put in first place on the Glasgow list, which all but guaranteed that there was nothing the electorate could do to reject him.
One downside of this proposition is that it would force small parties and independent candidates to stand for a constituency seat which has various financial and democratic consequences. Perhaps an exception could be granted for small parties and independents.
Part of the point by the way of the d’Hondt system is to give smaller parties a chance to get MSPs. So people can pick the candidate or main party of their choice for the constituency and give their list vote to a smaller party if they want, a party that would have no chance on FPTP.
The d’hondt system actually worked perfectly for the Greens, and would have for the LibDems if they’d failed in the Constituency.
My only improvement would be to pool all the “wasted” list votes at the end for all 8 regions, and select 4 or 5 extra MSPs. Which would probably mean UKIP with 2% of the vote would have got 1 MSP which, proportionately, was their due, if not even 2 MSPs.
It should be all about democratic representation, and has nothing to do with “failed” or “rejected” candidates.