The Makings Of Men
We apologise for making you look at Ross Greer’s face on a weekend.
But what he said to the Holyrood Sources podcast yesterday is important.
Firstly because it confirms everything in our analysis from yesterday. The Greens are definitely, and indeed openly, gunning for revenge against Humza Yousaf personally, and Greer’s comments strongly imply that if he’s still First Minister next week the Greens will vote with Anas Sarwar’s no-confidence motion in the government, which would almost certainly bring it down.
This contradicts Green MSP Mark Ruskell’s comments on Friday, which (as we pointed out in the same piece) made no sense at all. Indeed, Greer explicitly makes the same point we did – that Sarwar’s motion is specifically targeted at a Scottish Government WITHOUT the Greens in it, whereas Douglas Ross’s directly attacks the record of an administration they WERE a part of.
So logically it should be much easier for the Greens to support the Labour motion than the Tory one (and also considerably more palatable to their far-left membership). They probably also have little to lose from a general election – their small vote appears to be solid in polling, so the list system would probably ensure they kept all their seats.
(Although the outcomes of Scotland’s complex Additional Member System calculations are extremely difficult to predict when it comes to determining list-seat allocation when you don’t have any sort of reliable idea how many votes the main parties are going to get and how the constituency seats will fall.)
What’s curious about the interview is Greer’s suggestion that if Yousaf were to quit, the Greens would know who his replacement was at the time of the confidence vote and be able to act accordingly. That is manifestly untrue. Even if Yousaf quit 10 seconds after we published this post (which is highly likely the way this week’s been going) it would take weeks for the SNP to elect a new leader.
(Even if there was ultimately no contest and, say, Neil Gray took over unopposed, they still have to allow time for any prospective candidates to announce their intentions and secure the necessary nominations.)
But the Greens have been clear what they’re saying, eg in a tweet today by the latest trans co-convener of their hyper-extremist and influential “Rainbow Greens” group.
The message sent by both Bell and Greer is that they’re not only willing to bring down Yousaf, but also any “unacceptable” successor such as Kate Forbes. In other words, they still want to effectively be holding the SNP permanently to ransom even after they’ve been ejected from the coalition.
In essence, the Greens are attempting to hand down a double ultimatum: Yousaf must go, AND must be replaced by someone in line with the Greens’ policy agenda.
(Just as they did for the election of Yousaf himself.)
And there’s nothing the SNP can really do about that. The Parliamentary arithmetic puts them in a hopeless bind – any successor would be vulnerable to a confidence vote at any time, with only Ash Regan able to save them. But if they made any major concessions to Regan, they’d be all but certain to lose at least one of their own MSPs to the Greens and lose a confidence vote anyway.
No wonder Greer keeps smirking.
So the SNP now have two choices: spend the next two years as the abject puppet of the Greens, whether Yousaf resigns or not, without even the protection of the Bute House Agreement; or face the reality, stand down and ask the electorate to either put them in a better position or put them out of their misery.
(Ideally while acknowledging the catastrophe of the last few years and offering voters a drastically improved policy platform and a lot of new candidates. When Yousaf kicked out the Greens he claimed it offered the SNP the chance of a “new beginning”. If he had even a sliver of strength and vision he could actually try to make that true and start afresh, free from Nicola Sturgeon’s cold, dark shadow. At the very worst he could go out fighting on his own terms, not in humiliation and disgrace peddling a second-hand, third-rate imitation of someone else’s ideology.)
But of course we can’t really see that happening. This administration – including its supposed “rebels” – lacks the courage, the integrity and the basic intelligence. It’s far more likely that they’d prefer to live on their knees, milking two more years of wages and pensions from the taxpayer, than die on their feet.
What that also means, though, is that the Greens have most to lose from an election. Even without losing any seats, it’s highly unlikely that a new one would deliver them into such a perfectly-balanced position of strength. The chances are that we’d get a very fragmented Parliament in which eight or so Greens wouldn’t be enough to give either the SNP or Labour a majority, and they’d be an irrelevance again.
But Greer’s unguardedly smug comments have rather painted them into a corner, whereby if Yousaf doesn’t quit they’ll look cowardly and absurd if they don’t back Sarwar’s no-confidence motion – and probably enrage their own supporters, who by their nature aren’t much interested in pragmatic compromise.
Any politician – government or opposition – who tries to avoid an election because they’re scared of losing their own seat/power is effectively admitting that they shouldn’t have it, because if the public was given the choice they’d kick them out.
But while Holyrood has long been full of spineless, unprincipled squatters interested only in quietly feathering their own nests, we may have finally reached a situation so impossible to tolerate that their hands are forced.
Why would Humza give up his job when he is the highest paid politician in Scotland and (arguably) the UK. Anything less than calling for a GE, proves he’s only in it for the money (along with nearly every other Scottish politician) sick of the lot of it.
Can he just call an election immediately?
If so, what is the shortest possible campaign time (in other words, the earliest date for an election)?
A ‘snap’ election with a very short timeframe might mean a party with no money but a friendly press could still do alright?
From what I heard (from memory in discussions after one of the podcasts Geoff Aberdein appeared in with some Scots Tory wonk) the electoral arithmetic suggested that the Greens are likely to gain seats in any upcoming election, as are the Lib Dems, whereas the Tories will lose seats.
That *might* explain why Ross’ MOTC was for Humza not the Scottish government, but I wouldn’t credit him with the nous to have worked that out.
It is of course very much to be hoped that Greer in particular loses his seat at any upcoming HR election, but doubtless the Greens will ensure he’s a shoe in on their list, and as we’ve seen you don’t need many % of the vote to get a handful of MSP’s.
I’d like to think Alba will be able to up their game for the election, but it’s not looking that hopeful so far, not from polling evidence anyway. I’m not sure where early HR elections leave us? Will the result be a rump of SNP bitter einders lacking a majority, but enough Greens, Alba and others for a pro indy majority?
Ah hae ma doots: the ferrets in that political sack would be too busy fighting to provide any stable government. I could see the odious Greens providing support to a Labour or Labour/LD minority government though, even if not an official coalition à la Bute House agreement.
After all, when independence isn’t a red line for you, all things become possible in return for some climate change brownie crumbs from Starmer’s table.
If you don’t like those principles, Beaker, Big Bird and the wee Professor have others….
one thing you can be certain about the no confidence votes … most MSP’s will vote whatever way they think is best for their career, not what is best for their party and certainly not what is best for Scotland.
No idea if that means the vote(s) will succeed or fail though
Ross Greer would be impossible to spot in a box of Swan Vestas.
Hard to watch that video. Smarmy.
I said when Yousless got the gig he should call an election immediately as a) this was his high water mark and it was only downhill from here and b) he probably would have won having not done anything yet and having no real competition. He would then have had years as FM with no real threat other than his own stupidity (which is admittedly a massive threat).
Yousless might as well go for it. What has he got to lose at this point. Better to fight a GE than be pushed out the backdoor with his tail between his legs. (He did come in the back door it has to be said.)
Suppose there is an election and the SNP lose seats. Won’t the new Parliament be so fragmented that no alternative administration will be stable or coherent?
Even the worst of politicians can be pushed into doing something that is against their own selfish interests – not often, but very occasionally. I think Humza will have to go, as much for his own mental health as anything else, because the spiteful, malicious Greens will hound him, but will he take the entire SNP down with him in order to start over?
Personally, I believe they should go and chance an election. Reach out to the other independence parties – except the Greens who never believed in independence, anyway – and make the election about independence. For once in their lives, let this SNP use the strategy and tactics that will benefit the majority and not waste another ten years. Will they do that? Do they have the personal integrity and backbone to do it? They have no idea of the support they would garner from across Scotland because the people would see them as principled actors.
They have so much to gain by unifying with the other independence parties and groupings, even if it is one-off, ad hoc agreement. On the other hand, they have so much to lose if they behave like invertebrates and slither off into cover to wait it out again. They will be finished in 2026 if they do not take the initiative. Courage begets courage. Forget skin colour or origins, Humza, and act like the great Scots of the past: Bruce, Wallace, de Moray, etc. You will earn yourself a place in Scottish history forever. If we let you and the full independence movement down again, we deserve nothing better than to lick the boots of the Unionists into eternity. We will not be fit to be a nation again.
Greens and SNP – two cheeks of the same Woke arse.
Indy for Scotland!
SNP Out!
On Neil Gray potentially taking over – has there been a bald leader anywhere in the UK since Churchill? None spring to mind.
I wonder how much the Greens benefitted from SNP1 Green2 votes and whether the loss of some/many/most of those soft votes to Alba, ISP, Independents for Independence, etc will cost them seats?
After seeing their shockingly bad performance in government, and their behaviour now, I’d certainly hope so!!
The Greens thought it would be acceptable for them to announce THEY would vote in a month or so to end or continue the BHA and leave everyone hanging around waiting for their decision. Now they are upset when the senior partner in the Agreement decided to resolve the question immediately, and they are left looking like petulant brats.
“It is of course very much to be hoped that Greer in particular loses his seat at any upcoming HR election, but doubtless the Greens will ensure he’s a shoe in on their list, and as we’ve seen you don’t need many % of the vote to get a handful of MSP’s.”
The Greens’ list seats aren’t THAT secure. Their polling is solid atm but if, for example, they were to be widely blamed for collapsing the government they’d only have to lose a couple of percentage points for most of their seats, including Greer’s, to be on a shoogly peg.
Follow the money. A Holyrood election and a Westminster election will take more than We Buy Any Campervan to finance.
The SNP remains on course to splinter and disintegrate. It started the day Yousaf was elected as its so-called leader.
Sinn Fein came out of nowhere to replace the IPP. Something similar can and must happen here.
“Robertkknight
says:
27 April, 2024 at 3:55 pm
Greens and SNP – two cheeks of the same Woke arse.
Indy for Scotland!
SNP Out!”
Some alternative memes/slogans might be;
– Make Scotland Ours Again
– Make Democracy Ours Again
@Livonian 4.10pm
I’d say virtually all of them have been intellectually bald. I’d take bald and capable over hirsute and useless any day of the week. Of course if baldness is seen as a sign of being a good leader Flynn must be the new Messiah.
No….wait….
This should be carved in the stones on the way in to Holyrood (and indeed all other places of government).
“Any politician – government or opposition – who tries to avoid an election because they’re scared of losing their own seat/power is effectively admitting that they shouldn’t have it, because if the public was given the choice they’d kick them out”.
Can only hope ghos goes to an early Holyrood election and nothing SNP and Greens lose seats to Alba, ISP and Independents for Independence.
These 3 an broker any minority government which is the likely outcome.
The Greens’ list seats aren’t THAT secure. Their polling is solid atm but if, for example, they were to be widely blamed for collapsing the government they’d only have to lose a couple of percentage points for most of their seats, including Greer’s, to be on a shoogly peg.
From your lips to God’s ears!
As you say, when you’re looking at %’s down in the 5-8% range it becomes more problematic for minor parties when you take in to account the performance of other parties and second preferences etc.
I think from what McIver et al were assuming was that the Greens % would hold up, so it would be higher than last time and mean they’d probably gain MSP’s – presumably at the expense of the Tories and SNP?
I have a suspicion that the number of votes they’d lose from people who disliked them collapsing the government would be more than made up for by Candy Floss haired refugees from the SNP. Sadly it seems that 8-10% of the Scottish voting public is fully on board with the Greens deeply regressive, homophobic world view.
Progressive beacon my arse!
Just checking I have this right, FMs cannot call an election on their own initiative. Holyrood’s rules call an election if Holyrood fails to find a replacement for one “lost in action.”
And when there is an unscheduled mid-term election, it will bring in a parliament that will sit only for the remainder of those five years. Elections then go back to the five year schedule, yes?
“We Buy Any Campervan,” 🙂 I suppose Westminster short money will keep the SNP afloat till the UK GE, but can insolvency bring down a political party? And just how much damage could Sunak do if he saw advantage in a summer election.
Given that Patrick Harvie has been co-leading the Scottish Greens for 16 years, and may have reached the peak of his political career during the BHA, how long before Ross Greer succeeds him?
@Rob 5.07pm
A FM can precipitate early elections by resigning. If no party can put forward a FM who can command a majority the Presiding Officer is legally obliged to call for fresh elections within a set number of days….21 I think, though it may be a different number.
I think the Scottish parliament can also change it’s standing orders to allow for elections to be held without a super majority voting in favour: I’m sure I remember there being some discussion about that recently.
I think it would be hard for the Greens to bring down the government they were part of until last week – they can hardly claim there was a radical change in 10 days, and it would work with normal people. (Let’s face it, we’re political anoraks and we’re in the minority). So the Scottish public might well decide they’ve had enough to a party that has repeatedly proven it has no interest in the lives of ordinary people with their hare-brained, written on the back of a fag-packet “policies”. They have contributed nothing to public life in Scotland.
As for the “wokies” among SNP MSP? They were woke because Sturgeon demanded it. Their careerist instincts will ensure they support whatever the leadership say. IMHO
Rob @ 17.07.
Be too much to hope that Holyrood will ever revert back to 4 year sessions I guess. Having increased the 4 years to 5 under the pretext of the Coronavirus restrictions it’s unlikely that any MSPs would choose to reduce their tenure at such a rich feeding trough.
‘ Scotland’s complex Additional Member System ‘
Is this an aspect of the SNP’s Trans obsession ?
I get that most commentators on here are ‘politicos’ which is fine, but to anyone on the outside of this bubble, this all must be perceived by the electorate as no more than a game played by a class of people who are not answerable to those who gave them their position. Something then is very wrong.
Listening to that smug ginger scrotum of a mudskipper, I couldn’t help but think of how far his ilk are from the following –
”– that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth” A.Lincoln.
Had there been a Scottish independence «movement» one focused on the main task the SNP might not have gotten away with its «sell out» to passing social fancies.
As it is Scottish nationalism appears a fragmented, if not exactly broken, project.
Altogether rather too much off piste with no gps.
This will pass, eventually, but not without a demolition/reconstruction squad in place.
I get that most commentators on here are ‘politicos’ which is fine, but to anyone on the outside of this bubble, this all must be perceived by the electorate as no more than a game played by a class of people who are not answerable to those who gave them their position. Something then is very wrong.
Listening to that smug ginger mudskipper, I couldn’t help but think of how far his ilk are from the following –
”– that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth” A.Lincoln.
Can hardly blame the Greens for doing what the SNP should have done during the Brexit wrangles at Westminster.Karma for some of SNP polititians who think they know what their voters want better than their voters.
Just driven the length of Scotland today and been surprised at the sudden burst of ??????? flags .
I take it this is not the SNP branch of independence but the liberation of the rest !
@Frank Gillougley,
Yip , that’s me . Definitely not a politico but am amazed looking round the MSM comments sections today how people are drawn to the echo chamber that aligns with their viewpoint as the rest of the electorate scratches their heads and wonders how anyone in their right mind would trust any politician never mind discovering how far from democracy this has slipped .
That’s all I hear in my neck of the woods .
Might be different in other areas I guess .
I have driven up the length of Scotland today and been surprised at the sudden flurry of ???????. I take it they are not from the SNP fraction .
I can’t help but think there’s a surprise or two coming that will render all of these machinations and predictions obsolete.
The only thing I’m 100% sure of is that the SNP come out of this much weaker, probably in opposition.
@ Lynn: what is meant by the “???????”.
What do you think will happen with the Green vote? Obviously their insane Gaza/TRA wing will be energised, but how many of the tactical SNP second votes do they lose? Particularly when the SNP will actually need some list votes now
If the SNP get rid of Humza and replace him with Gray to get the Greens back on board I don’t see how the likes of Ewing, Forbes, McKee etc can remain
I think the only way forward for Independence is for the SNP to split apart. The serious politicians need to either create a new party more firmly placed on the centre of the political spectrum or join Alba and leave the others to become a weakly pro-indy version of Slab
So, let me see if I understood this situation correctly.
If Labour is specifically directing the VoNC against a SNP gov outwith the BHA, when the BHA has been in place since August 2021, what government exactly is the idiot Sarwar directing this VoNC towards? Sturgeon’s government, now that she has not been FM for a year? or is he targeting Humza’s gov simply because the greens are no longer in power?
If it is the latter, this labour VoNC in combination with Greer’s self-perceived right to decide who must lead the SNP, comes across as blackmail from labour to force the toxic greens back into government.
So when did labour become another Green proxy?
Why is Starmer so desperate to see the greens back in control of the SGov and effectively in control of the SNP?
a. is it because his only chance at winning seats in Scotland is if the greens keep making the SNP unelectable and creating havoc?
b. or is it because the other alternative without going to an election is having Alba near the levers of power?
What is really what the establishment really fears?
This apparent manipulation to get the greens back in power has a rather sinister undertone and goes to confirm the suspicion that the entire holyrood is being manipulated and directed as a block.
If the idea behind Sarwar’s puppet master is to force the Greens back into power to avoid the SNP joining forces with Alba, then it very much sounds like labour, the same as the tories, do not want a Holyrood election right now either.
Go on, Ms REgan. Hit Holyrood’s puppet master in the balls (metaphorically speaking) by forcing an election and tell them where to stick the puppet strings. Throw a wrecking ball and bring the whole rotten set-up down.
An election will tell the greens how much the people of Scotland wants them anywhere near the levers of power.
If Starmer is so desperate to put the greens in power, once labour wins, he can form a coalition with the Green poison and let labour develop irreversible political gangrene as the SNP did.
I have a really bad reception but here by the sea . I had added a saltire . No idea how it became lots of question marks .
Has anyone been arrested yet.
Would it be fair to say that an election is out of the question as the SNP are skint, and with Operation Branchform still live the SNP wouldn’t be as popular as they think they are.
For me it would appear that Yousaf will go, and be replaced by someone the Greens feel is suitable, and the SNP will limp on until 2026 unless something major turns up.
Bad signal by the sea . It went out as a saltire .
@ Lynn: thank you! I hoped that it was saltires that you were saying but feared that it was ghastly multi-coloured things@
@ Lynn
All those ??????? flags are likely being flown by all the folk questioning just WTF is going on with all the Party Political Politicians and commentariat spending way to much of their time and effort on Party Political bullshit rather than actually addressing running the country.
TBH I’m fucking deid with it as there’s so little focus and discussion on improving the situation because all they seem to be bothered about is their own political maneuvering.
And as Frank Gilloughey rightly mentions, pretty much all non political anorak folk don’t follow or have the slightest fucking clue what is going on because they have way better things to be getting on with in their lives than watching this clownshow circus continue to play out.
All this intense theoretical Party Political chatter about how this or that may play out is just a distraction. The current crop of “politicians” lost the plot and the room some time back. The lot of them need to get tae fuck.
If the “Greens” had any serious interest in the environment then they would have been pushing for significant improvements to our basic infrastructure to stop things like trashing our rivers by pumping effluent into them, or blowing taxpayers’ cash on dodgy solar installs. Pathetic generation figures of just 600kWhs a year on installs is a fine example of the flawed policy rollout.
But no, instead we get millions of limited taxpayers’s dosh frittered away on endless virtue signalling pish and genderwoo.
@Frank Gillougley, you certainly speak for me.
I’m not political, not aligned to any party or “ideology”, very much undecided on independence. All I want is competent Government that serves the public (whatever form that takes or what it looks like), rather than the present self-serving incompetent shitshower that clearly works against the majority on both sides of the border.
I do NOT want “Net Zero”, “Alphabet” obsessions, a completely lassiez-faire survival-of-the-fittest-and-tae-hell-wi-everyone-else turbo-capitalism a la current Tories nor a North Korea-esque dystopian hellhole as pushed by Sturgeon. I dont want our country flooded by freeloading incomers, nor on the other hand see them treated like subhumans.
I want to pay my dues, have half-decent public services, see the roads fixed, ensure that there’s safety nets for those who need them, have the freedom to better myself, drive a car or fly on holiday without getting nagged by the nanny state, have incomers treated humanely when they arrive then smartly and safely sent back to whence they came, and most of all have a Govt and State that cares for and looks after its people and country, without feeling the need to be like some nagging nanny or be completely hands-off and uninterested.
Some may agree with me and others won’t – that’s fine, that’s democracy.
I come here for the truthful, no-BS, matter-of-fact commentary that Stu provides, one which is completely lacking across the MSM, most especially the Scottish MSM. Whilst Stu is very much pro-indy – which I respect – his commentary is distinctly more factual, honest and non-partisan, unique amongst bloggers and media alike.
P.S. I enjoy the mixture of opinions BTL – respect to you all.
Sorry i refused to watch whatever this has done nothing dunderhead said
We must get rid of the LGBT whatever out of our primary schools
NOW
Get stuffed the watermelons -green on the outside RED inside full off MUSH
“What do you think will happen with the Green vote? Obviously their insane Gaza/TRA wing will be energised, but how many of the tactical SNP second votes do they lose?”
I’ve never been very sure that vote is actually significant.
@lynn
Bit of a flag war going on in Moray. A lot of britnats in the area.
I’m no lover of Kate Forbes, but honestly if a general election for Holyrood was to be held the SNP would stand a better chance of winning with her in place than Niel Gray or any of the the others candigates, so the SNP might just have the last laugh regarding the greens. Remember Ash and Kate do get on and this friendship just maybe better for the Alba party as well and who knows Kate might support Ash’s Bill.
I’m no lover of Kate Forbes, but honestly if a general election for Holyrood was to be held the SNP would stand a better chance of winning with her in place than Niel Gray or any of the the others candidate, so the SNP might just have the last laugh regarding the greens. Remember Ash and Kate do get on and this friendship just maybe better for the Alba party as well and who knows Kate might support Ash’s Bill.
Hasn’t loony leftie Jen of the Greens just committed a hate crime there by bringing Kate Forbes’ religion into the argument and using it in a pejorative way?
A bit O/T: yesterday I commented btl on a previous thread that politics would be hugely improved if direct democracy was restored i.e. if politicians [and judiciary] were subordinate to the voters at all times.
This would end voter apathy/disillusion, and would improve the calibre of candidates selected by parties because no party would want to be fined or imprisoned for harming the people’s rights. The GRR and Hate Crime etc bills would never have got on the agenda let alone be enacted.
Also parties would focus on their manifesto commitments – or else. So e.g. the SNP would never have been allowed to postpone action on independence.
I suggested that all parties and candidates who were willing to include direct democracy in their manifesto should stand under an umbrella organisation, perhaps called the Claim of Right Direct Democracy group. This would help by not splitting the vote as voters could vote for that candidate, whichever party/I4I they came from, knowing that the key principle would be honoured.
I see that the Independence for Scotland Party [ISP] already has direct democracy as a key policy. Clearly they are prepared to treat voters with respect and should receive our support.
So there are 3 crowdfunders that Wings readers could help with. The first is dedicated to direct democracy and independence. The other two are both Independents for Independence fighters for independence, against freeports, and defenders of women, children, and free speech. If several thousand of us gave just £2 each it would help the following:
a] crowdfunder.co.uk/p/ge24-campaign. This is for ISP’s General election campaign fund of £3000 – currently at £1402.
b] crowdfunder.co.uk/p/ge-campaign-fund-sally-hughes-i4i-perth-kinross. For Sally Hughes – needs £10000, currently at £1964.
c] crowdfunder.co.uk/p/eva-comrie-ge-campaign-fund—alloa-grangemouth. Target £10000, currently at £5485.
That clip demonstrates just what a wee jumped up *unt Greer is and as for Forbes?
So why did Humza dump the greens.
Was he waiting till budget passed.
The situation as of today seems to stir up two quite apparent feelings among many contributors in Wings :
1. First a feeling of helplessness, but perhaps not quite yet despair. Helplessness is a station on the track to despair.
The system is set up so that once an election has taken place, and the dust has settled into a formed government, until the next Election the people have virtually no means to do anything about it no matter how incompetent, dishonest, extreme or all three the government turns out. That is how Greer and his like get to stay in place and Lord it over us.
In my opinion, one way to improve the “List system” would be to disqualify anyone elected as a list MSP from appearing on a Party List for a second or subsequent time.
Nothing would stop them standing as candidates in the usual way.
2. Second, it’s just a thought, but had the 2014 result been the other way, by and large the same characters as have a death-grip on Scottish politics today, would be running an independent country, ten years on. The EU and Spain have made it clear that Scotland would not be in the EU. It’s hard to imagine what sort of economic and social nightmare we might be facing today, looking back over those ten years. It might have been a worst possible time to do it. These thing should ONLY be done when the time is right.
I am reminded that the country going economically bust over the incredibly foolish Darien Scheme was a principal reason for the Union. We would want to get off to a good start.
I am predicting a GE.
Having Ash (“No great loss”) the deeply ginger WHITE! woman dictating terms to El Thicko the prince of bel-hutchy will push every button on his limited dashboard, all at the same time.
Can you imagine how that would go down ‘at home’. Ginger, female, WHITE!…
GE for me.
People talking about an “independence majority” or “making the election about independence” – one might just as well make the election about stamp collecting as is has precisely as much to do with Holyrood as independence does. i.e. nothing.
Still refuse to listen to dross gear
But why can i ask is the RBS getting involved with this done nothing failed uni person
@ Charles (not the R one) on 27 April 2024 at 9:51 pm:
Are you drunk? Because that’s an utter load of shite in that comment of yours. First of all, your 2nd point is not a “feeling” among Wings contributors. It’s a point or two of unbelievable lies from you. Only BritNat Unionists insist on lying about 2014IndyRef.
The EU has *never* “made it clear that Scotland would not be in the EU”, you’re a f@ckin’ liar and it’s a lie Rev and many others have comprehensively debunked in 2014 and since over the years. STOP PASSING OFF BRITISH MEDIA FALSEHOODS AS FACT. Many professionals have also been quoted to blast that crap out of the water. One or two solicited quotes for right-wing English Tory rags from an unheard of right-wing Italian politician, or whatever, does not equate to the whole EU stating anything.
You also wrote: “it’s just a thought, but had the 2014 result been the other way, by and large the same characters as have a death-grip on Scottish politics today, would be running an independent country, ten years on.”
Another pile of utter shite. You have absolutely no idea who would have been in power and running Scotland. Absolutely none! Where do folk like you get off thinking that anyone on here will fall for your all seeing eye routine? The great oracle of modern times. A time traveller making a pit-stop on Wings to impart his great wisdom? You truly are delusional beyond belief if you think any long-term Winger buys into your sudden gift of “sight”.
You need to up your game. References to the “Darien Scheme” is pretty desperate stuff but another favourite of clueless BritNats. A scheme comprehensively covered on Wings so we don’t need your version or associated scaremongering etc. Up your game and stop insulting our intelligence’s with ridiculous amateur scaremongering and outright blatant lies.
The Pseudoscientific Art of the Double Double
Once they had committed to their decision, they have tended to stick to the commitment, as they feel as they have “invested” in it and that “feeling” has biased all their later decisions.
They have been overly influenced, by what they have already committed to, even in the face of the latest scientific evidence and words of advisory caution, on the potential and actual damage they have done or are doing to others and themselves.
And even when further commitment to their “feelings” is 100% a losing proposition,including money,time, two first minister’s, without even mentioning the irreverible damage that their commitment, is causing to the general population (we will let the full force of the medical/legal system, sort that out) on and on, they go.
Some might say they are in a state of nonoverlapping magisteria – Science Vs Feelings or Faith, may I remind them that Science still carries a high degree of respect in Scotland,that beliefs and practices that claim to be scientific but lack the true methods and essence of science do not.
They have all the patina of legitimate scientists,but something has gone terribly wrong, and thats beyond a few errors or sloppy practices, their methods are so flawed their entire endeavor is suspicious.
Pulling the rip cord on these pedlars of lies and half truths has clearly been the correct but asobering action for them to take and while they continue to water the flowers with fake tears, they know, we all know, it has left them in a spot of political bother to put it mildly, it seems the only choice that is left for them, is to press eject button (on their artificially constructed reality or altered state) and just give up.
Or will they Double Down again and will we will all have to suffer for the next two years as they try to explain their self-actualisation needs, are greater than everyone else’s basic needs like food and warmth, if so, then may all of your Gods, whoever they may be, go with you and shelter us from the storm thats coming, or maybe the new God of AI will make an intervention…….meantime, remember we live in beautiful, subtle, elegant and complex universe, try to embrace your own emotional palette and please, pretty fucking please, just keep breathing.
sarah
Ignored
says:
27 April, 2024 at 9:20 pm
A bit O/T: yesterday I commented btl on a previous thread that politics would be hugely improved if direct democracy was restored i.e. if politicians [and judiciary] were subordinate to the voters at all times.
Subscribed. Only could manage to subscribe to one of them, Sally is in my home constituency. Sticks in the craw that the two ladies and the ISP struggle for funding when you witness our contemptuous political class effect elite status on the public dime.
affect elite status even
SNP hierarchy will not allow Humza to lose this vote. If a deal can’t be done with the Greens to abstain or Alba over this weekend (both unlikely IMO) a resignation will appear Monday. Someone who won’t cause trouble, a “safe”’pair of hands with no leadership ambitions – I suspect it will be Shona Robinson – will take over until Nicola and Liz appoint decide who their followers should pick as the new leader under a new confidence / supply deal with the Greens and we will limp on with this until 2026.
I would dance a jig of glee if that orange heided turd and runt Greer and the rest of that cabal of yoon fairies lost thier seats. I guess it wont happen as they will have the Brit Woke Press and Media cheering for the Red White and Blue Green Yoon Party.
I now look at Rainbow Flags with stomach churning anger. Present day Quislings that sold us out to continued London Rule.
Britnat Brainwashing Channel reporting Weak Pishart and Dumbza Yousless pouring liquid dog’s shit all over the idea of cooperation with Salmond/ALBA.
Ash…you know what to do. Save the terminal SNP from a slow, agonising death and give Indy a fighting chance to make a full recovery.
Indy for Scotland!
SNP Out!
Stoker at 11.09
Thank you for your trashing of charles. Couldnt have said it as well. It needed saying too.
Bring on an election and a group coordination of independence forces. Its the only way out of this. Politicians in the snp arnie brave enough though. As for the greensffs fall off a cliff why dont you. Your messing with a nations existential future. You’ll find out what esteem Scots hold for that eventually.
Scotland will never become independent as long as Scots have to rely on politicians in power to bring independence.
Alex Salmond is the only politician in power in 300 plus years who stayed true to his cause.
No stone was left unturned to destroy him before he could get another chance. And who was behind it? The very person who had been expected to carry on the fight for independence.
The pretendy “sovereignty of the Scots” is not and never was worth the paper it was written on.
300 plus years and not one “Sovereign Scot” has been able to end the union.
The pretendy Scottish parliament will achieve zero for independence in the next 600 plus years.
The only hope is for an Alex Salmond like figure to arise to lead the fight from the grassroots without taking any political office.
Andrew Marr; “The SNP is imploding. Has devolution failed?”
He’s a smart cookie. He understands that the SNP puppet government has been rumbled, that more and more people in Scotland see through the lie that they are a pro-independence party, that they may as well work for the British State, if they don’t now.
That leaves the fake parliament (which has responsibility over a few things but no actual power) in quite an odd position. It’s pretty obvious to anyone who takes a minute to look into it that the majority of Scots now support independence. What do those Scots do now?
So, the answer is yes, devolution (which was always a charade) has failed… to contain the desire for independence (the purpose it was intended for).
No matter how Scot’s vote, in Holyrood or Westminster elections, they simply have no democratic route to independence, and that isn’t accidental.
You might say colonialism has failed rather than devolution, but those were always interchangeable terms as far as British statecraft was concerned.
John Curtis on Radio yesterday said support for Independence is still at 49%. Have the voters separated the SNP from the cause in their minds. Just asking
@ GM at 11.00 p.m. yesterday:
Good on you for donating to Sally Hughes. 🙂
Stojer , thanks for that!I do wonder why folk think it is such a good idea to come on to this website and try to persuade Scots that they are a bunch of mushrooms to be kept in the dark especially while using historically debunked blethers.
StoKer , sorry fat fingers!
Iain More , I feel exactly the same about the rainbow flags and more disturbingly having kids using them for the NHS thank you made it easier to peddle to the young as a very different kind of flag.
Hatuey
Ignored
says:
28 April, 2024 at 3:47 am
So, the answer is yes, devolution (which was always a charade) has failed… to contain the desire for independence (the purpose it was intended for).
In that context maybe…
But Devolution has been extrordinarily successful in keeping Westminster well fed with Scotland’s resources, facilitating the routine inoctrination of Scotland’s electorate, and creating a false summit which a depressingly large number of people in the Independence Movement recognise as the threshold for actual Independence and recognition of Scottish sovereignty.
Power in a devolved assembly is a contradiction in terms, and Scotland’s power in Westminster, in other words Scotland’s delegation representing the sovereign Scottish people, bend and obscenely contort themselves to accommodate Westminster bogus doctrines and colonial misadventures, while abandoning Scotland’s sovereign constitution and paying despicable lip service to the Claim of Right. Who needs t(r@itors) when even our rebels, a mighty 56 of 59 of them no less, are supine and subordinate by lacklustre default?
And angry Scotland’s best notion of rebellion? Vote SNP? Shuffle the deckchairs in Holyrood, and don’t even bother to draw up plans for Independent Nationhood, because there’s no intention whatsoever to deliver it.
The bastards are just going through the motions, and our population is kept docile and compliant by inverted Irobot philosophy; Your responses are limited. You must answer the right question.
Our freedom is limited to the options they offer us, and our elected political Kapos exist to make sure we obey.
Charles (not the R one) said;
“The EU and Spain have made it clear that Scotland would not be in the EU.
I am reminded that the country going economically bust over the incredibly foolish Darien Scheme was a principal reason for the Union.”
Firstly, neither body said any such thing! The EU merely said that Scotland’s membership wouldn’t be automatic because there would be some negotiations required first, and Spain would only block it if Scotland achieved its independence in an unconstitutional manner.
As for Darien, it was not incredibly foolish, it was incredibly sabotaged by England’s establishment, including king William, and it did not make Scotland go bust. Even then, Scotland had no national debt, whereas England’s was seriously worrying, and that was itself a major reason England wanted the Union, as it wanted Scotland to help it pay its debts! If Scotland was bust, that would have argued strongly against the Union from England’s perspective.
I see that blowhard humble crofter is on the Kuensburg.
Must be a “all you can eat breakfast” on the BBC tis fine morning!
I’ve just looked at a photo in the online The National. Humza Yousaf is sitting with Angus Roberston looking over his shoulder and Shirley-Anne Sommerville behind Robertson. What a picture of treachery and no talent.
Angus Robertson worries me. I do not trust Mr R. not to be working actively to bring down the cause of Independence, as he did so effectively to the SNP over the years – him and Nicola Sturgeon.
I also looked at WGD for the first time in months. His article was, I have to say, moderate and not foaming at the mouth. However, the BTL comments were neither of these things. Just like they still cling to Nicola Sturgeon they are hanging on to the wreckage that is Humza Yousaf. Scottish Skier is particularly good value for money in a rage because it seems Ash Regan ‘stole’ his contribution to her campaign. The vitriol is amazing. Dr Jim is also good for a laugh. I’d forgotten what they were like. It will, however, be a good few months till I look at the WGD again.
XARACEN 09:05
Easy solution to Spanish veto, let an iScotland support the return of the appropriated territory of Gibraltar to Spain.
I’m sure that if there were some constitutional instrument and democratic mechanism available to indigenous Scots – and only indigenous Scots, not all those from elsewhere who’ve lived here for 10 minutes or happen to be in Scotland for their holidays at the time – whereby they could express their desire for Scottish independence, there would be an overwhelming majority in favour.
@Turabdin 9.46am
The Spanish veto is of course a yoon myth. The then Spanish Foreign Minister said they would veto the membership of an independent Scotland which had declared UDI, but had no concerns where it had been gained in a legal process. That’s the reason Spain still doesn’t recognise Kosovan independence today: the likelihood is it would not be alone as other EU member states like Cyprus have issues with UDI for their own selfish reasons.
The principle is however another shot across the bows for the proponents of “cunning plans for indy” and the rainbow and unicorn fantasising about extra parliamentary routes to independence that don’t include a clear majority of Scots voting in favour of independence in either a referendum or plebiscitary elections.
You need enough Scots to give you a majority among the Scottish MPs who sit in WM. Plus enough Scots to give you a majority among the MSPs who sit in HR.
If all of them are absolutely determined on Indy, by any means short of armed revolution (plebiscite, “unapproved” referendum, UDI, appeal to the UN, etc), then, if the “popular majority for Indy” truly exists, Indy is a done deal.
I can’t be arsed to do the math right now, but the total number of committed, competent Scots requiring to be voted into office among the WM and HR constituencies must be somewhere between 100 and 200. By all means let’s pretend that just about every Scot currently at WM and HR is a turncoat and a time serving trougher, but the number of replacements needed is really quite small. The “unaffordability of standing for office” argument doesn’t hold water because the pay and perks for the successful candidates are quite generous. If a true groundswell of Indy support exists, then a true groundswell of funding for plausible candidates is no problem whatsoever.
So what exactly is the problem? I have never quite seen it myself, and all the explanations I have read on here lack plausibility.
Unless … the fundamental premise is false, and no majority for Indy exists amongst the rank and file of the Scottish voters. Ergo, no hard-as-nails, steely-eyed, laser-focused, Indy zealot will make it past the hurdle of the polling booth.
Occam’s razor and that.
I hold no candle for the Greens but a political party voting only for an FM they find acceptable is not an earth shattering scoop.
Lol what’s the alternative.
Lets see if this happens.
“Humza Yousaf will talk to Alex Salmond’s Alba party after his former SNP leadership rival Ash Regan indicated she is willing to give him her crucial vote to save his political career.
The two sides are set to meet as Yousaf fights to win two crunch no confidence votes in his leadership and his government expected at Holyrood this week.
The Alba MSP Regan is willing to back the First Minister in exchange for an end to Sturgeon-era policies.
And Yousaf’s team has indicated they are willing to negotiate with Regan on women’s rights, independence and the economy for her support.”
Hatuey @ 3:47 am
“You might say colonialism has failed rather than devolution, but those were always interchangeable terms as far as British statecraft was concerned.”
Yes indeed, devolution is another ‘colonial procedure’, giving the maistly complicit native elites a wee pouerless local assembly tae talk among thairsels, an tae haund oot a few poonds tae thairsels an aw thay colonial ‘functionaries’ and ‘watchdogs’ to keep the ‘racket’ and ‘plunder’ going, and to take the independence movement a long wander ‘up a blind alley’.
This is all part of the decolonization template and colonizer manual, according to postcolonial theory. Scots shuid really ken aw this by noo, hou the English Imperial gemme is played at ither fowks an naitions cost, especially us Scots.
https://salvo.scot/scotlands-colonial-status/
According to this the BHA was terminated by Yousaf to save his political career after the Greens Patrick Harvey ran down the The Cass Review, after which their was supposedly a backbench revolt from SNP MSPs against the Greens.
“A senior SNP source said: “Harvie is clearly raging at what he believes has been a betrayal of his party by Yousaf but the truth is that he did this to himself with his completely unacceptable comments on the Cass report.
“Ash Regan’s motion of no confidence was going to get significant support including from a sizable rebellion of SNP MSPs, it was going to lead to a vote in parliament and Humza’s position if he continued to support Harvie and the Greens deal would have become untenable.
“The FM had absolutely no choice but to take steps to end the Bute House agreement, it was just a matter of how he did it.
“By sacking the Greens in the most humiliating manner possible he has clearly enraged Harvie so much that he now wants to destroy the First Minister at all costs.”
More on the possibility of a Yousaf/Salmond/Regan deal.
“Back channels have been opened between Alba and the SNP to discuss the “shape of a potential deal”.
Regan has said she could be willing to support Yousaf in order to keep the Greens out of power.
Agreement will be difficult but is within reach despite high levels of personal animosity between Yousaf and Regan.”
https://archive.is/EtDft#selection-1553.0-1565.115
@Andy Ellis
Why would “Yoons” believe that any Indy supporting Scot could ever care about being in the EU?
Over 300 years of supposedly grassroots calls for us Scots to control our own destiny, yet these same Scots are supposedly desperate for substantial chunks of our destiny to be determined by qualified majority voting in Brussels?
The Indy movement made many mistakes over the years and one of the bigger ones was entwining Indy with the EU. To this day though, the pro-EU propagandists continue to carpet bag on the Indy movement.
No rational person can be simultaneously swayed by one argument that political and economic union is bad, and a second argument that political and economic union is good.
Indy means Indy, as TM might have said, and everybody in Scotland from AS down should have been saying for the past 20 years.
Is ProPal a woman’s complaint?
https://archive.ph/Lbp3R
Columbia, UCL, Edinburgh……the chill shrill of the «righteous».
I’m coming around to accepting your explanation that Scotland is a colony but I baulk whenever you blame the English. The English neither care for Scotland nor have the wit to colonise anywhere.
The colonisation of Scotland is a wholly British phenomenem
Let me get this straight, what happens in “normal” times when political parties dont reach 48% support, like you know, in 2007.
Are we doomed for no government forever?
In any other european PR country a party on more than 35% of the vote would be clear winners and expect to run the government. There is a difference between being unable to force independence and being so unpopular they have no mandate.
Of parties need to break the system to govern, we’re fucked.
@Hatey McHateface 10.12am
You need enough Scots to give you a majority among the Scottish MPs who sit in WM. Plus enough Scots to give you a majority among the MSPs who sit in HR.
Not so. There is no requirement in international law or historical/constitutional precedent for there to be majorities in both Westminster AND Holyrood. Exercising self determination doesn’t require such a “double lock”, it’s a one time deal.
Although referendums are the more common route to independence in more recent times, they aren’t the only acceptable route.
What the movement as a whole has to learn to centre, is the fashioning of a majority of the popular vote in favour of independence. It doesn’t matter whether that’s via an agreed referendum or a plebiscitary election. There’s no requirement for a super majority, or more than 50% + 1 votes in favour, however much British nationalists and others complain.
Either you’re a democrat, or you aren’t.
Well, Breeks, it seems obvious to me that what we are watching is a colonial system and a colonial administration in tatters, and that can only be a good thing for the independence movement.
How we and others frame the collapse of the SNP is going to be all important. The SNP was a Unionist ploy, a ploy that distracted and deceived the people of Scotland by pretending to be an independence party.
The Scottish Government became a branch office of the UK Government under Sturgeon, and not only did the SNP fail to resist the nightmarish policies of the rabid Tory right, on foreign policy, the pandemic, etc., Sturgeon and her party basically became super-fans. A lot of this was right in our faces, with no attempt to even hide it.
What we are watching is a bunch of confidence tricksters being rumbled, not the collapse of a pro-independence party. If there’s a lesson here it is that we should never again give unquestioning support to politicians or political parties.
And since the independence movement will need to find a new approach, let it start afresh with that important lesson at its core.
“Easy solution to Spanish veto, let an iScotland support the return of the appropriated territory of Gibraltar to Spain”
Actually, that might be possible if Scotland as a cosignatory of the Treaty of Union unilaterally revokes the treaty and refuses to grant its partner, the the Kingdom of England, the right to remain as the continuator state of the Kingdom of Great Britain.
The monarch of the Kingdom of Great Britain happens to be the entity who acted and remains to act as signatory of the Treaty of Utrech, which granted Gibraltar to the Kingdom of Great Britain.
If the Kingdom of Great Britain is dissolved because Scotland unilaterally revokes the treaty of union, this means one of the main signatories of the treaty of Utrech suddenly becomes two.
It is the treaty of union itself what is currently ensuring the monarch in Scotland and England is the same. Unilaterally dissolving the treaty of union gives Scotland a huge leverage in a hell of a lot of things.
And that is why this route is continuously being presented to us by union apparatchicks as an impossiblity and why unionist parties like the SNP are trying to dissinform by claiming the only route available to us is the one that emasculates Scotland and renders it powerless, which is the “secession” from the Kingdom of Great Britain instead of the correct route Scotland should take which is that of exercising its legitimate right to unilaterally end a treaty of which it is a co-signatory.
That is why, in my view, any suggestion that the Spanish would ever turn their nose to Scotland unilaterally ending the treaty of union using its legitimate right as a cosignatory of the treaty under international law, and potentially opening a door for Gibraltar to return to Spain, is nothing more than utter bollocks.
So, little more than a year separates Regan openly considering a legal challenge to the flawed and allegedly fraudulent process that made Yousaf SNP leader and hence FM …
And her proposing to extend him a lifeline so that he can stay in office.
I think it stinks to high heaven.
Something else that stinks.
Everybody accepts without question that every MSP will vote along party lines. Everybody parrots the line that Regan controls Yousaf’s future without ever even wondering why it would be so unthinkable for a Labour (say) MSP to vote for him, or an SNP (say) MSP to vote against him.
If Regan has any power in this scenario at all, it is only because every other MSP in that cesspit would seem to have no honour.
And no consideration whatsoever for Scotland’s honour.
This is nothing but theatre. Yousaf will agree to anything Regan asks, and then renege later. She knows that as well as I do. That’s how dishonourable men and women behave.
@Hatey McHateface 10.33am
Your personal hostility to EU membership and your specious insistence that membership of the EU is inconsistent with “real” independence is rather beside the point. Scottish and rest-of-UK Unionists never stopped banging the “you’ll be out of the EU” drum during the #indyref1 campaign. It was one of their go to arguments, and doubtless it did convince quite a number of people. Remind us how that worked out again?
You’re perfectly entitled to keep making your argument that it would be mad to leave the UK union, only to join the European Union, but a super majority of Scots disagree with you. Indeed evidence suggests that not only have you comprehensively lost that argument, it has actually become even less convincing since brexit, as support for EU membership now is higher in Scotland than it was at the time of the vote. Facts, eh?
Few people in Scotland and few in the EU give what passes for your “real independence” argument any credence.
Wee update… huge thanks to folks for promoting and contributing to my crowdfunder.
The crowdfunder site sometimes lets me post a comment of thanks, and sometimes doesn’t (don’t ask my why, its probably me not working the technology properly).
I’ve received cash donations as well and am now 1/3 of the way there.
I am tremendously grateful.
I have leaflets produced and have been campaigning this week – getting a phenomenally good response. And I’m not just saying that.
For the first time, my gut feeling, is that support for Independence is sitting at 60%. I have not thought or felt that before.
Thanks again. Hope to see you out there. Best wishes. Sally
SNP MSP Fergus Ewing’s support for Humza Yousaf is not a nail on, Ewing expects a big concession for his support.
“Veteran nationalist MSP Fergus Ewing has warned Humza Yousaf that his support in any confidence vote comes with non-negotiable conditions.
The SNP firebrand wants immediate action on the dualling of the A96 if the FM wants his backing.
“Ewing, suspended by the party over attacks on Greens co-leader Lorna Slater, said: ”I think I have performed a very valuable service in speaking out against my party over the last three years over the Greens.”
“My genuine belief is that the Greens are a menace in government, lunatics who have wasted hundreds of millions of pounds on things that are either not much use or of very little value and they want to destroy the economy.”
“I was absolutely delighted to hear the news… oh happy day.”
“He added: “I am loyal to the party. I am supporting Humza for now but I want to see action by the end of the summer recess on a number of things.”
“Unless that happens he cannot take this support for granted. It’s not unconditional and it’s time-limited. During the leadership contest Humza was asked if he would deliver the A96 and he said it was a top priority.”
“Well £37m has been spent on this so far and there isn’t a single piece of tarmac laid. This is non-negotiable.”
“We must have a clear statement by the end of the summer recess and it must say when the project will be delivered.”
Have people seen the Herald? Civil war amongst the Greens, calls for Greer, Harvey and that mad woman to go.
Check it.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24283157.inside-story-green-rebels-want-rid-leadership/
Ellis (yes, ELLIS): “Although referendums are the more common route to independence in more recent times, they aren’t the only acceptable route.”
And with that I just choked on a cornflake.
Are we watching a massive evolutionary step right here, as monumental as a creature crawling out of a primordial swamp?
Andy, you have been bashing people who talked about alternative routes to independence for years in here… wtf?
I should’ve added that Fergus Ewing for his support of Yousaf, also wants the proposed ban on wood burning stoves scrapped.
Ewing added.
“The Inverness and Nairn MSP said he was confident Yousaf could survive a no confidence if he worked with Alba MP Ash Regan but it may not be enough to save him from having to resign later.
He added: “I think he will survive this vote but I think the damage to his reputation means he will not survive much longer. If you think about the way Humza operates and look at the problems he has had, he always acts too late.”
“Are You Lonesome Tonight? Well, are you, punk? Did you think that the speed limit didn’t apply to you? Does Marsellus Wallace look like a bitch to you? ”
A popular vocal entertainer, an unwashed detective, an unknown authority figure, and a character moulded from some imaginary mashed wood join forces in my little speech.
But why?
If it weren’t for the Barbarians they might have given us an answer. But just as they were getting close to one they declined, fell, and were overrun by them. And so ended that flame, that beacon of enlightenment, the ancient Greeks.
The Greeks made a good attempt before the ancient Italians gave it a go, and the ancient Greeks, being the ancient Greeks, weren’t quite as vague as the ancient Italians.
Where the ancient Italians, or the Romans as they are often called, came up with a single term for all of them, the Greeks distinguished between every different type and then, because they were the ancient Greeks, gave them all names.
They had erotesis, hypophora, epiplexis, anthypophora, antiphora, apocrisis, interrogatio, rogatio, subjectio, ratiocinatio, dianoea, erotema, epitemesis, percontatio, aporia, and pysma.
That’s a fair few names, isn’t it? And each name referred to a slightly different and very specific type.
Type of what? You ask.
Why, rhetorical questions, of course, is the answer. What else?
The classification of rhetorical questions is complicated. For instance, the same rhetorical question can be completely different depending on where it’s asked.
Complicated stuff, right?
Would anyone on here want me to write a series of comments detailing the properties and applications in speech of each type of rhetorical question I wonder?
What? Nobody?
“Should Scotland be free of the union and return to being an independent nation?” is an example of a question that isn’t rhetorical. Well mostly. It depends where and how the question is asked, according the ancient Greeks.
My answer to that question regardless of where, how and when asked will always be yes – always.
And just in case you were unsure of the origins of the little speech up top; Elvis Presley, Dirty Harry, a traffic cop, and Marsellus Wallace from Quentin’s Pulp Fiction is the answer. Or is it? Well, yes it is, actually.
Hatey says:
“The Indy movement made many mistakes over the years and one of the bigger ones was entwining Indy with [joining] the EU. … No rational person can be simultaneously swayed by one argument that political and economic union is bad, and a second argument that political and economic union is good.”
Obviously true. No rational person can.
But Indy supporters are more emotional than rational.
Could the English state broadcaster/propaganda machine the BBC, have inadvertently helped get rid of the Greens in government? Alex Salmond seems to think so.
“ALEX Salmond has claimed a BBC interview with Patrick Harvie was what sparked the end of the Bute House Agreement between the SNP and the Scottish Greens.
The Green co-leader was interviewed by Martin Geissler on the Sunday Show last week to speak about how a decision to pause the prescription of puberty blockers to under-18s had angered the LGBT branch of the party.
The recommendation had been made in the Cass Report which looked at gender identity services in NHS England.
When he was asked whether he accepted the Cass Report as a valid scientific document, Harvie replied: “I’ve seen far too many criticisms of it to be able to say that.”
Former first minister and Alba Party leader Salmond has now claimed the interview was the “source of the crisis” which erupted on Thursday morning when Humza Yousaf sacked Harvie and Lorna Slater as ministers in his government and terminated the power-sharing agreement.”
@Hatuey 11.05am
I’m not responsible for your lack of comprehension skills.
The acceptable routes (i.e. acceptable in the eyes of the international community who we will depend on for recognition) to independence haven’t changed: it’s either an agreed referendum on the 2014 pattern, or where that is impossible due to British nationalist intransigence, a majority in favour of independence in plebiscitary General Elections. I’m not sure which part of this you’re finding hard to understand.
There are plenty of other routes that can be tried, like a “wildcat” referendum which lacks any agreement with Westminster, straight out UDI à la Kosovo, a popular uprising with passive resistance and withdrawal of Scottish MP’s from Westminster and calling of a constituent assembly, or the use of violence to overthrow the current system.
I assume nobody in their right mind is advocating the last on that list, but none of the others are particularly attractive either. I’ve never said any of them weren’t possibilities, just that they wouldn’t result in independence in the short to medium term and in any case commanded negligible popular, academic, legal or constitutional expert support. None of that has changed.
The alternative routes are impossible: they are however cul-de-sacs.
Ian Blackford apologies to the Greens, and hopes that they can work with the SNP, nothing surprising here I think on Blackford’s statement, his time as SNP leader at Westminster was an abject failure.
“IAN Blackford has apologised to the Scottish Greens for the handling of the termination of the Bute House Agreement.
Speaking on the Laura Kuenssberg Show, the former SNP Westminster leader said the way in which the First Minister ended the power-sharing deal with the Greens could have been handled better.
“I apologise for what has happened this week,” Blackford said.”
@Campbell Clansman 11.17am
It’s a fatuous false equivalence. The union of Scotland and England and the EU are not the same thing. No rational person could or should posit such an intellectually lazy equivalence.
It becomes no more convincing for the constant repetition by sundry eurosceptics, brexiteers, unionists (Scottish and English) and Reform party gammons.
Northcode @ 11.08.
Whilst I left school at 15 before receiving any tuition in rhetoric, I do have one quote which I long to see being put into practise by any Scottish politician;
“I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass … and I am all out of bubblegum.”
They Live.
Andy Ellis
You will be aware that that which is asserted without evidence may be denied without evidence.
But I’ll give your unevidenced claim that a supermajority of Scots want us in the EU some credence.
It’s a fast changing dynamic though, as the war grinds on. So my qualified acceptance needs regular refreshing to take account of the EU’s rapid militarisation. It needs confirmation that every Scot asked understands that the terms and conditions the UK enjoyed won’t be available now to a country and economy one tenth the size.
It needs to know that every Scot polled is aware of the growing opposition in Ireland to EU membership, and why – surely significant given the regular claims of our Celtic parallels.
Last but not least, it needs to know that every Scot polled is clear on why our national role model, Norway, is not in the EU, and has no plans to join.
To summarise, I’m making the unevidenced claim that your unevidenced claim that a supermajority of Scots want us in the EU is down to thoughtless responses to a loaded question. Faced with the true facts of what EU membership will mean in 2024 or later, I’m thinking many Scots will think again.
The “Indy in Europe” trope was only ever a sop to silence the “too wee, too poor” claims. Scotland deserves better than that from those supposedly charting a way out of the 1707 union.
If you accept we really are too wee and too poor then you’ve lost the argument.
RepublicOfScotland
Not quite up to your usual standard.
Where’s the evidence for your claim it was “inadvertent”?
“I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass … and I am all out of bubblegum.”
Brilliant. That’s a good one, Sven. They do, indeed, live on. I am nicking that one for future use.
I’m liking the
SundaeSunday flurry of comments today.@ Sally Hughes at 10.58 a.m.: “…my crowdfunder.and cash donations..I am now one-third of the way there…. been campaigning this week, getting a phenomenally good response. For the first time my gut feeling is that support for independence is at 60%. I have not thought or felt that before.”
Thanks for this very encouraging update, Sally.
I too think that if we had a vote, using a non-local authority franchise, we would get a majority for independence. It’s the only thing that makes sense.
@Hatey McHateface 11.39am
https://fullfact.org/scotland/alister-jack-scotland-opinion-eu-membership/
https://www.whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-would-you-vote-in-a-second-eu-referendum/
Facts, eh?
Oh…and euro-scepticism in Ireland is even more of a minority pursuit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#:~:text=Following%20the%20Brexit%20referendum%2C%20a,leave%2C%20with%207%25%20undecided.
You are of course right that things can change fast: look at the decisions by Sweden and Finland to abandon their neutrality and join NATO for example. There is however no evidence that post independence Scots are suddenly going to be overcome with a sudden fit of euro-scepticism, or decide they’d be better existing in a state of splendid isolation.
They may of course decide to go for the Norway option, even if just as a short to medium term option, but I hae ma doots.
I no more accept that Scotland is too wee, too poor etc than the voters of all the other newly independent countries who have joined the EU thought their countries were too wee, too poor. What’s made all of us significantly poorer is brexit. Personally I’d be quite happy with the Norway option, but that’s not the most likely outcome.
“I think it stinks to high heaven”
Ms Regan has put in front of Mr Yousaf a series of demands. They are clear and not insignificant demands. I like to think Ms REgan is not stupid and will not accept Yousaf’s word at face value. She will have to enter a written agreement.
Ms Regan is putting a high price for her support, on this instance, to ensure the current government can continue. That price involves a 180 degree u-turn in some critical things the SNP has been doing since the political fraud Sturgeon took over.
Ms Regan might be in a position of power, and she is simply exercising that power. I do not feel any stink coming from that. That is politics.
Mr Ewing has indicated that his support for Mr Yousaf is no un-conditonal either. He also has presented his demands in exchange for support on this VoNC.
But this is a one off, mind. And this is the beauty of it. Without a formal agreement of cooperation, and with a minority government, another VoNC can happen at any other point over the next 2 years. This means that if Mr Yousaf wants to remain as FM, this time he will need to tow the line, not his master’s or Sturgeon’s, but the line drawn by the SNP rebels and Alba.
What really stinks is something else, which is that, apparently, there is not sufficient support among libdems, labour and tories to make the VoNC in the SNP government stick.
This clearly points to the fact that the last thing the master controlling the unionist parties (including the SNP and Greens) in HOlyrood want is an election right now.
“Everybody accepts without question that every MSP will vote along party lines”
That is a false assertion. I most certainly do not. My comments yesterday clearly indicate that I do not believe borders between “parties” in Holyrood actually exist. They are all, in my opinion, operating in block as a one-party state and also in my opinion controlled by the same master.
I have mentioned several times that it cannot be discarded the possibility that in order to keep Humza in power without having to call an election, suddenly, sufficient number of libdems, tories and labour MSPs, become ill, or have a clash of diaries that stops them getting to the vote or simply abstain.
Equally, if there is a chance Alba may be getting too close to the levers of power (and the evidence) and there is a potential for all the destructive work conducted by the powers that be in the SNP to transform it into a unionist party, the master will pull the strings of sufficient SNP MSPs to abstain or being absent on the day to ensure the next approved puppet takes over from Yousaf. Any threat of abstentions from the SNP MSPs to the new puppet will be counteracted by an equal number of abstentions from the opposition.
We have seen this same strategy played out in Westminster dozens of times. There always appears to be a neverending source of rebels on demand on each party to allow a particular nasty vote to pass despite the political posturing against it by the opposition parties.
“If Regan has any power in this scenario at all, it is only because every other MSP in that cesspit would seem to have no honour”
Most of them have no honour. They demonstrated it when they voted to curtail women and children’s rights, when they clapped to Beth, when the sat on their hands while the lord advocate usurped control of Scotland’s legislative to stop the referendum bill and, more recently, when none of them had the guts to vote against the bill to remove juries.
I am of the opinion Ms Regan has no power in this scenario at all, because the master pulling the strings of the Holyrood block will rather continue running puppets around the SNP musical chairs or even collapse the government than getting Mr Salmond, indirectly, anywhere near the levers of power and crucially, the evidence.
“This is nothing but theatre”
On this, I agree with you 100%. Scotland’s politics, and I dare say UK’s politics, have become nothing but theatre since 19 September 2014.
Amazing. So, basically, the moonhowling shortcut route to bonnie purple heather is a thing now. What a difference a week makes in politics…
It went somewhat unnoticed by most of you, I expect, but MP Neale Hanvey of the Alba Party took up the cause of the “vaccine injured” in The Commons this week. I am starting to really like Hanvey. Some of the numbers he referenced were quite startling but I am not suggesting anyone might enjoy going over the details of his speech.
I have been critical of the Alba Party for missing opportunities and causes like this, maybe what we say BTL is more important than I thought, but better late than never.
Everything is going extremely well.
And this is the SNP who vigorously encouraged their voters to give thir second vote to tbe SNP.
And the result was 1,080,000 list votes cast to secure two SNP seats, a minority SNP and no Alba.
Had the 1,080,000 votes been cast for Alba who were standing no constituency candidates, only list, then Alba would have secured around 25 to 28 list seats. Clearing out labour and Tory seats there would have been a super independence majority. But no, the SNP encouraged 1,080,000 to effectively waste their vote on two SNP lists, and a minority government supported by the Greens
Now tell me that this was not deliberate.Surgeon and clique together with tbe backbench donkeys consoired to do this.
And now the SNP writhes in its death throes.
Trade agreements with other countries always come with conditions, but they are necessary. Those conditions don’t equate to a loss of sovereignty in my opinion, but if you think they do you then you are always going to struggle with the decisions an independent Scotland will face in the real world.
An independent Scotland needs to trade with countries in Europe and if the EU didn’t exist to facilitate that trade then we would need to have trade agreements with each individual European country… the sum total of all those trade deals would be uch more restrictive to Scotland than EU membership.
If you think trade agreements equate to a loss of sovereignty, you should help minimise the quantity of them by supporting EU membership.
“I too think that if we had a vote, using a non-local authority franchise, we would get a majority for independence. It’s the only thing that makes sense.”
Indeed, Sarah. And uplifting news from Sally Hughes. It’s good to get such an encouraging update from someone at the sharp end of Scotland’s struggle for independence.
So Humza has already exhausted the sack of assorted Squirrels and Carrots handed to him by Sturgeon (and the others, whoever they are) to protect their secrets.
Amusing as it is to watch the SNP squirming to hold things together, I need to periodically remind myself that all of this is to keep a number of people out of jail.
Trade agreements come in all shapes and sizes.
I have one with my local Tesco. They provide various goods and services of tolerable quality in return for my funds and acceptable behaviour on my part when on their premises.
At no time do they permit me freedom of movement to go and live in their store. Neither is there an acceptance on my part that their staff can come home with me to stay.
Somehow or other, the EU managed to lump the concept of trade with the concept of free and unfettered personal movement. That has been at the root of many of the problems afflicting Scotland since the turn of the century. It will be the death knell of Scotland as we know it if post-Indy, we return to the warm, suffocating embrace of the EU.
Just which part of “ever closer union” is proving incomprehensible to many?
Just when did it become the accepted norm that trade must come with one-sided mass population transfers?
Ms Forbes has reportedly expressed the hope that the Scottish Green Party may extend personal support for her, presumably if she replaces Mr Yousaf, whom she says she intends to vote for in any VONC.
it’ll be interesting to see if the Slater & Harvie tag team find a way, if the opportunity should arise, to balance their “progressive” LGBT views with the “Wee Free” lady.
Andy Ellis
Thanks for the links.
I think most objective reviewers would accept that EU membership approval has been flatlined for some considerable time.
As for whether any of those polled have ever been appraised of the terms and conditions under which Scotland would be offered membership, I have my doubts. How could they be? Nobody knows what they would be.
I remain of the opinion that those susceptible to logic and reason might change their tune.
Just as I remain of the opinion that the EU, seeing our potential for cheap energy, ample lebensraum and great places to put their nukes, will, of course, have our national arm off in their haste to get us signed up.
Just how all that will benefit your average Scot in the street, let’s wait and see.
Their problems are a direct result of ‘both votes SNP’. In another election, will the SNP be stupid enough to do that again?
Their problems are a direct result of their short-sighted policy of both votes SNP’.
In another election, will the SNP be stupid enough to do that again?
Izzie @ 7.53am
‘John Curtis on Radio yesterday said support for Independence is still at 49%. Have the voters separated the SNP from the cause in their minds’
Until 2015, no-one seriously questioned the fact that SNP was the one and only route to Scottish independence.
Thereafter it gradually became clear that Sturgeon has no such vision. But it took a further 5 years until the first organised alternative route to Indy surfaced, with the formation of ISP, led by Colette Walker.
In 2021, Laurie Flynn set up the Alba Party, the following year Flynn, Salyers, and others formed Lib.Scot/Salvo, and this year Eva Comrie, Sally Hughes, and others are collectively, though apparently without formal agreements, part of Independents for Indy.
Sturgeon’s legacy is not that she has destroyed the independence movement – it is arguably stronger than it has ever been – she has merely destroyed the credibility of SNP. Unfortunately, SNP/Indy still resonates with its remaining, supporters.
The bulk of independence supporters are ex-SNP voters and now mostly politically homeless – though based on by-election results over the past year, far more likely to vote for Labour than any of the ‘new’ Indy parties. In fact, new parties have barely scratched at the number of SNP deserters.
The next largest group, 500,000+, are those still loyal to SNP, with the remaining clusters of support for recently formed groups a long, long way behind.
It will take time for the penny to drop with diehard supporters of SNP, and meanwhile the movement will remain in limbo. This is due to lack of unity. Even on these pages we see regular contributors switching allegiances or championing various factions and leaders.
But the greatest impediment to progress towards independence (not the actions and duplicity of unionists – don’t we expect that of them anyway?) is the failure of leading figures to unite and provide ONE natural home for SNP deserters.
This is, hopefully, an interlude during the fast-moving chain of events currently unfolding. We were relatively quick to suss the infiltration and attempted destruction of our independence movement, we’re now in the midst of a battle against woke and neo-liberal ideology, we just haven’t yet regrouped as one united front, but when we do, we will be wiser, stronger, and we will get to our destination.
Frank Gillougley; 27 April, 2024 at 5:51 pm
“I get that most commentators on here are ‘politicos’ which is fine, but to anyone on the outside of this bubble, this all must be perceived by the electorate as no more than a game played by a class of people who are not answerable to those who gave them their position. Something then is very wrong.”
Exactly so… and for me and everyone in my circle; that has been the case for many decades.
The political bubble could not be more unrepresentative of the general population!
– Few people from the real world are entitled, privately-educated, well-connected shysters with no legitimate (i.e useful) trade or profession. Few people in the real world think with the end of their knob… are over-sexed creeps, weirdos or deeply dysfunctional and disturbed. – Not, I stress part of any ‘spectrum’ or even people that know distress and suffering and bear the scars of that; but those that are simply not capable of contributing to a civilised society.
I cannot think of a single ‘politico’ who isn’t some one or combination of crank, gadfly, narcissist, parasite, deviant or downright crook.
They’re not the best educated people – their ‘gold standard’ being an extensive schooling in things that are of no use in the real world; rather, in a crooked game played by Siphonaptera on an international basis. – They’re not the most talented people; unless you count grifting as an art form.
Their mentalities infest all walk of life of course; the current Post Office scandal stands as a convenient exemplar of how corrupted ‘Management as she is spoke’ is as what one might loosely call a discipline… rotting, fetid, corrupted, vile. The Post Office isn’t unique of course; for you’ll find this level of self-serving corruption everywhere from your local GP surgery, infesting the Council offices, twisting the Coppers at your local Police Station like rebar… etc… etc… etc.
‘The bubble’ – it resembles the ‘Polycule’ thon grotesque wee man who calls himself ‘Sophie’ and claims to be a ‘Folk-Punk’ songstress, belongs to; and submits to because he is mired in self-delusion and lacking in self-respect such that he craves validation by being beaten up by it. In fact; that particular Polycule is a bubble within ‘the bubble’… “like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel. Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel”.
Something is indeed very wrong, of course it is… It’s not meant to be right! It is of course clichéd to call the current landscape out as ‘Orwellian’… but then it is a self-serving system with perpetual ‘wars’ at its centre. There is no will anywhere to achieve anything by way of actual progress or betterment for the people. That’s why you cannot get a fag-paper between the Tories and Labour… or why the SNP are well settled as devolutionists.
All the politicos have to do is throw the odd scrap of raw meat at the great unwashed and keep them scrapping it out; at least those of them who haven’t woken up to the fact that the only winning move is not to play. The political Polycule is a perverse and perverted thing. – People have no choice but to interact with it; but for the most part are sickened by the stench of corruption that hangs in the air with it.
Spanish veto? Pah! One word would resolve that prospect… “Fish”.
Beth Lover, and branch manager of the Lib/Dems in Scotland Alex Cole-Hamilton’s letter to Humza Yousaf.
“Successful minority administration must be rooted in compromise and a spirit of mutual trust with other parties.
“However, your actions this past week have eroded entirely any remaining trust that you enjoyed across the chamber.
“They suggest that rather than being motivated by the national interest, you are presently motivated only by your own self-interest and by political survival.
“After 17 years in power it is clear that your government’s priorities are not the people’s priorities. People can’t get a doctor’s appointment or see an NHS dentist; our schools are tumbling down the international rankings and you have abandoned Scotland’s climate targets.
“You have made life harder for business and islanders still don’t have the lifeline ferries they so desperately need.
“Yet still, you spend an unforgivable amount of ministerial attention and public money on fomenting constitutional division.
“Put simply, you have run out of road. It’s time to put the national interest first, resign the office of First Minister and call a Scottish Parliamentary Election so that the people of Scotland can determine the future of both our Parliament and our country.”
When something has just exploded, no one knows where the bits will land. This is Point A. You are here. Wings, at least, will be buzzing for the next month.
Humza is no chessplayer, that is for sure; who knifes someone, then puts a gun in their hands? What happens next?!
– he strikes me as a very odd type for politics, like some “holy fool”, a man without guile; someone mentioned the shenanigans over selection for airdrie-shotts the other day, and it reminds of the intense levels of macchiavellianism needed for something so “basic b1tch” as a candidacy. Then it just ramps up, exponentially, we, the public see the tip of the iceberg, rarely is the kimono opened for us (enough metaphors – too much coffee for you) – so HTAF does this “deer caught in the headlights” naif get the top job in Scotland?
Fucksake, it wasn’t on merit, not his intellect, his vision, his charisma, his oratory – quite the opposite. He is a placeman, an empty jaikit, a toom tabard, or, better still THE PATSY. And that fits. (Also, some concession to the “asian business community” who I suspect have been secretly bankrolling the SNP for a while).
– when the SNP slips beneath the waves, he will be the guy who gets the blame for it.
Reminds a bit of what happened to rangers; David Murray slowly destroyed that club, even during its success (crooked, mostly) with all manner of sweet deals with the banks, dodgy schemes, tax avoidance measures, and he got away with it because the scottish sports journo is incurious, for they are mere fans (rangers fans, that is) with typewriters, hoping to gain favour with the king, to touch the hem of his garment (at press conference) … first name terms with the manager, open doors at ibrox, interviews with the big boss, grand visions of conquering europe.
– but it was all structured like a ponzi and murray knew it had to end; enter Craig Whyte, a low end spiv who thought he could do a quick flip, borrow against future revenue, turn it around, make a profit. Murray and Whyte – it was like a spider with a fly; Whyte buys rangers for £1 and in the rangers fans eyes forever more, Murray is the hero, Whyte the villain.
Sturgeon = Murray
Lets surmise Scotland gets its independence, and negotiations begin,
Number one would be the supposed Shared national between Scotland and under the fallacios treaty of Union,
This is the reality.
The Bank of England was established in 1694 roughly as an Act of the government of England,
The bank of England from its foundation in 1694 was a private bank, and the bank of Englands parliament until 1946″
Leaving the numerical years between 1694 and 1946, for others here to add up that are far superior in maths than I,
Since 1998 the bank of England has been wholly own by the Treasury Solicitor on behalf of the goverment of Westminster parliament,
The Treasury Solicitor became inshrined as such in 1879 as a Sole Corporation, and has legal powers invested in the Corporation Sole. ( important legal jargon)
The Treasury Solicitor reports to the Anttorney General……. for England and Wales.
The Anttorney General resides and acts for Westminster, which as you recall sits in the Sovereign parliament of England due to the Crown of England succession in turn due to the Bill of Rights and the Act of Settlement.
Does Scotland Share a National Debt with the bank of England that was a private bank, not a public bank or National of Britain?
Since 1878 the Treasury Solicitor is a Corporation, attached to report to the Anttorney General attached to Westminster of England,
If it came to negotiating National Debt between Scotland and England we better know what we are talking about and the truth of history on records,
@Hatey McHateface 1.19pm
I think most objective reviewers would accept that EU membership approval has been flatlined for some considerable time.
As for whether any of those polled have ever been appraised of the terms and conditions under which Scotland would be offered membership, I have my doubts. How could they be? Nobody knows what they would be.
Deflection on your part: it may have flatlined but remains the super majority. The fact you don’t like it, doesn’t make it any less of a super majority. These are the facts: they don’t care about your hurty feelz that most Scots think euroscepticism is for the birds.
Demanding absolute certainty, and that every i be dotted and every t crossed is an old yoon trick from #indyref1 days. It was bullshit then, and it’s bullshit now.
There are no guarantees either way, whether on independence or the outcome of brexit. I don’t recall many of the frothing brexiteers giving us chapter and verse prior to the brexit vote: indeed we were airily assured the negotiations would be the easiest thing in history, and that we’d get everything we wanted with a cherry on top. Remind us how that went Hatuey?
Of course it isn’t provable either way, but I bet a hell of a lot of people who voted No in 2014 now wish they’d voted Yes, and it would be a brave analyst indeed who asserted with any confidence that Scots would be appreciably worse off now than they are if the 2014 result had been reversed.
Similarly, we know that the majority in the UK now thinks brexit was a mistake, and that it has knocked 4% off our GDP. We didn’t see that on the side of a bus during the campaign did we?
I remain of the opinion that those susceptible to logic and reason might change their tune.
From all the evidence, you don’t appear to be amongst those susceptible to logic and reason though, certainly not on this issue.
Just as I remain of the opinion that the EU, seeing our potential for cheap energy, ample lebensraum and great places to put their nukes, will, of course, have our national arm off in their haste to get us signed up.
Just how all that will benefit your average Scot in the street, let’s wait and see.
I have little doubt the EU will indeed bend over backwards to ensure the fastest most pain free entry for Scotland in the EU’s history…as long as that’s what Scots express the desire to see happen. Otherwise they’ll doubtless be quite happy to see us “do a Norway”.
Of course if Scots were to miraculously have a change of heart and decide not to join or even be associated, the EU will shrug it’s shoulders and move on. Where else are we going to sell our energy? And the EU doesn’t have nukes, the French, Brits and American do. Unless the EU suddenly morphs in to a NATO replacement if the Donald “goes off on one” assuming he gets elected.
Your atavistic hostility to all things EU seems to cloud your judgement or even grasp of reality. It’s certainly not a logical or reasonable take on matters.
Seems all democratic politics is compromised. Though that has always been my interpretation since I heard about the old Greek chap 50crates . Beer merchant. Explaining the election was a con orchestrated by bad men backed up by violent men using money men to rob us .
Scotland is not unique in the position it faces of disparities between population needs and political control by the usual suspects in a capital driven west.
It’s only a few weeks till the opening Euros match in Munich with hosts Germany. Am really hoping to be there June 14th. Then Koln on the 19th to play the Swiss , who need only float down the Rhine. Stuttgart against Hungary 23rd is combined with having a couple of Hungarian neighbours.
That period will cover midsummer. There will then be a few days to commiserate another early departure from a tournament OR six to nine days to ready for the next game in one of five possible cities.
This is when I hope to visit the Waldbuhne in Melle. A small woodland theatre. Just a couple of miles off the European north autobahn and wee walk from the north European railway.
First visit was in 1981 around the time King Charles the third of England was getting married to the blood line Spencer , young Diana . The hill near the Waldbuhne was called Maerchenwald. Fairyland
This was the area of the battle of the Romans and German
@fukwhitmakatey
I can guarantee you but one thing. Not gonna tell you
Its a strange peculiar treaty of union that has A Scottish parliament not in it, but under Dissolution since 1707,
It is a strange peculiar treaty of union that has not united the Crowns but separated them,
It is a funny peculiar treaty of union that did not join kingdoms, but separated them.
Its is a strange and peculiar treaty of union that has the Crown of England making the Westminster parliament Sovereign.
It is a strange and peculiar treaty of union Westminster parliament that comes under “English Common law”, “which is under the Courts of England, see, ( Crown Act proceedings 1947), previously known as Crown Privilege, which includes public- interest immunity ( pII )
It is a Strange and peculiar treaty of union that expects Scotland to pay a National Debt to a private Bank of England and a Corporation.
When I go quite on here for a few days it is for one of two reason,
Either because my spouse is really ill again,
Or because I am researching the records to help Scotland become independent by legal methods, and ensuring it will not start its new independence as a financial destitute Country,
All and any help from others here is always welcome.
One has to laugh at Humza saying there will be no pact with alba on the basis of promoting independence.
Funny the SNP not wanting to promote indy.
On top of that we have the crofter wanting a peerage
Well I will not be serving his lorship in portree coop
Andy Ellis
I very clearly recall the Project Fear predictions of what would happen if the UK voted for Brexit, even if you don’t. I processed them, decided for myself the price was worth the benefits, and along with over a million other Scots, decided to vote Yes for UK Indy, sorry Brexit.
As many on here regularly aver, you shouldn’t put a price on freedom. If you live in the real world though, you probably will.
It’s fun trading insults, don’t get me wrong. But it’s pointless fun. It’s certainly possible the EU will fall apart before the UK does. Loss of a handful of the eastern EU members to the viciously expansionist RF is a possibility too (some on here think it’s a dead cert) and that won’t leave the calculus unaffected. Have you ever considered how support for the Union might increase if the EU falls apart? I don’t think it impossible.
Reasonable people should, IMHO, agree that Indy and EU membership should be decoupled and treated as the entirely separate decisions they need to be.
As the facts change, wise people readjust their opinions to suit.
I actually find myself warming to the EU as its existing member countries slowly wake up and grow a pair on subjects such as defence, border controls and repatriation of undesirables. At the same time though, I would expect your average Scottish progressive to be taking the opposite viewpoint, and that means you.
As neither yourself nor the Scots polled seem to have noticed how the EU has changed and how it will continue to change in the coming months and years, I’m thinking the adjustment, when it comes, will be seismic.
Again, the Indy movement would be wise to have decoupled from support for unthinking EU membership before that paradigm shift happens.
Ross Greer truly is an absolute we weasel cretin of a boy – he will never be a man. I can’t believe that lunatics like this (with him being a supposed Christian, his religious bigotry towards Forbes, and not Yousaf, an adherent of am extremely misogynistic religion, is interesting) being listened to AT ALL, EVER. This country truly is broken and lost, politically.
Hatuey
Ignored says:
28 April, 2024 at 11:55 am
Amazing. ..
Well spotted. Hanvey is sane, has baws and principle and is a Scottish nationalist. His type is the type we need.
@Hatey McHateface 3.39pm
I actually find myself warming to the EU as its existing member countries slowly wake up and grow a pair on subjects such as defence, border controls and repatriation of undesirables. At the same time though, I would expect your average Scottish progressive to be taking the opposite viewpoint, and that means you.
For what it’s worth I’ve always been something of a left of centre Euro-Gaullist. The General in his day was said to have a soft spot for those with such views. I’m actually all for Europeans (whether via the EU or some other body) unhitching themselves from the USA security guarantee and providing for their own collective defence and co-ordinating their foreign policies.
Border controls, immigration, repatriation are not issues we’re likely to agree on, but again I think many progressives would in fact now agree that mistakes were made in the past and that promotion of integration and demanding those who settle here accept our fundamental values are unexceptional “asks”.
Declining birth rates and ageing populations mean opposing all or most immigration isn’t really a viable policy, particularly when for many it’s based more on a dislike of coffee coloured people than on social or economic concerns.
the indy movement as a whole doesn’t have to be intrinsically coupled to any particular policy. As Rev Stu amongst others has long said, detailed policies can wait until after independence, whether it’s EU membership, NATO membership, hosting nuclear weapons, monarchy or republic, unicameral or bicameral legislature, STV/AMS/FPP voting system: all things that can be decided post indy via referendum or parliamentary majority.
Doubtless the EU will continue to develop & will change as will NATO. If (god forbid) Trump gets elected things might get interesting, and if the war in the east goes the wrong way it’s bound to have an impact on how EU & NATO allies in eastern Europe react. I’d still rather face all the upcoming challenges as an independent nation than as part of the UK.
Possible scenario.
Yousaf, all unwillingly, forced out of office.
Blames white racists.
Defects to Labour party.
«Yah boo sucks to your indy!» as parting shot.
The Sturgeon divident pays up.
Hatuey: “Somehow or other, the EU managed to lump the concept of trade with the concept of free and unfettered personal movement.”
File under “ignorance is strength”.
1984 is one thing, but The Wealth of Nations is probably asking a lot…
dasBlimp @ 10:37 am
“The colonisation of Scotland is a wholly British phenomenem”
Colonialism is always “a co-operative venture” with native elites (Fanon). However, for the colonized group, this idea of becoming ‘British’ is a cultural illusion; it reflects for the colonized “a manufactured being” (Memmi), no matter for the colonized Indian, Kenyan, Chinese, Irish or Scot.
What did you think ‘cultural assimilation’ was about? “The point is” that no matter your race or indigenous group, in a colonial society “one must resemble…the colonizer (and in this context) the colonized in the throes of assimilation hides his past, his traditions, in fact all his origins which have become ignominious” (Memmi).
The colonized thus removes his real identity, replacing it with the racially ‘superior’ identity given to him by the colonizer, which results in “a false persona” (Purves).
Hence ‘the Cultural Cringe’ and related psychological effects of colonialism affecting a colonized people, and their need to understand why a colonized people ‘crave dependence’ and oppose their own liberation:
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2024/03/03/the-colonial-mindset/
Alf Baird @6:31pm
“Hence ‘the Cultural Cringe’ and related psychological effects of colonialism affecting a colonized people, and their need to understand why a colonized people ‘crave dependence’ and oppose their own liberation:”
James Che on a previous thread came up with some good ideas that in a ‘normal’ society might be very effective in lobbying government and in raising a people’s awareness of contemporary social issues.
I said that I didn’t think they would work in Scotland at this time and you articulate one of the reasons why I believe that to be the case.
The tactics used in societies unafflicted by colonialism to sway people to favour a particular view are unlikely to work on a people ‘conditioned’ through years of indoctrination in a colonised environment.
Maybe some of the techniques used by psychiatrists in de-programming former cult members might be more effective. There appear to be some similarities between those indoctrinated into harmful cults and colonised peoples indoctrinated by their colonisers.
This is my own subjective view, of course, and I might be mistaken in my assumption. But to my mind the similarities are striking.
Our parcel of rogues facilitated the unparalleled UK .
Was us cunts that started it. Muck fee. Just cos the royals preferred London to embra. Britannia was such centuries before the English were evicted from Germany. Reject huns.
The cities of Westminster and London Corporation plundering everyone for centuries is a pisser. What you gonna do , eh ?
Sounds like Ross is saying they’ll support Forbes (but not any Hutchie old boy alliance?) – easy solution could be:
SNP supports the opposition’s lack of confidence on both counts, and calls Holyrood election,
SNP stands in the constituency, but not on the regional list.
Scotland United (/Independence Now) stands on the list.
SNP & sitting Scotland United constituency candidates get priority on the Scotland United list, otherwise the Scotland United list comprises sitting MSPs & minority party preferences only.
All party’s on the regional list participate in at least one constituency seat,
Voters are asked to vote SNP1, Scotland Utd (/Independence Now) 2.
That way best exit from the unionist prisoners dilemma would be for the opposition to rediscover it’s confidence in Scotland & her people – and help Parliament declare indy in advance of the snap election..
🙂
I could imagine Rushi Sunak and Scholz’ new attempt at a EU army turning on Scotland in bully boy tatics army force if Scotland did not want to stay with the UK in future,
It is funny how old history sometimes has a knack of repeating itself.
England, Wales and Ireland are under- going, and is in the process Colonisation at the moment,
And the Uk government are ensuring it happens by bringing in mass migration of mostly foreign males while making the reduced police force utterly stupid, bias and letting the people of England and ensuring the people their have no access to any justice, fair courts or laws to defend them selves with,
Whilst most unionist are looking towards Scotland to keep it a Colony of England, behind them they are being Colonised because thats how elites for more power and money sell out their People,
Ask Scotland, Scotland knows
Northcode @ 7:15 pm
“a ‘normal’ society”
Yes, a long since colonized people and territory are clearly not in any regard ‘a normal society’.
As Fanon noted, where the national parties ‘fail to undertake a reasoned study of colonial society’, this means the understanding of the people about their colonial condition ‘remains rudimentary’. This is still the case here.
A clear example is the lack of understanding still that independence is decolonization, as the UN self-determination process and any reasoned theoretical analysis of a colonized peoples’ reality, such as the ‘Doun-Hauden’ framework, confirms:
https://bpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/wp.towson.edu/dist/b/55/files/2022/05/The-Socio-Political-Determinants-of-Scottish-Independence.pdf
Invasion by foreign people, without the native peoples consent,
Use of force on local population,
Change the native populations religion and beliefs.
Alter the laws that they once grew up with, and prepare new Colony laws to subdue them that they do not recognise,
Leave them with a forced influx of foreign languages,
Re- educate the native peoples children by schooling them different from their parents and grandparents,
Reduce the local populations habitat, housing and living conditions,
Restrict their movements,
In- prison and jail any native that protests or shows signs of rebellion,
Restrict information or communication between natives by taking away their right to free speech, making it illegal to protest
And ensuring only one new government news media is allowed to dictate the news to the new Colony, by shutting down all other sources to prevent outside news coming in.
Aye England, the creep of Colonialism can sly and devious , unnoticed, if it is done by your own people of Government, when you give them your trust and votes,
But lockdown practice of the of local populations has already happened,
Your law enforcement is at present turning on you
You already have the new languages, beliefs, religions and people in your midst to replace you.
Your homes and houses are already being taken for The replacement population.
Your restrictions on Speech, travel, and having to be ID is already in your Country as if you were in ww2 germany.
Your freedom of news outlets is halfway there, only the dictators news is allowed your told every other source is wrong and false.
Restrict your travel, reduce your maximum income and reduce your employment wage, to a mimimum wage,
Your children are being groomed and re- educated from your background,
Unionist are so busy trying to keep the old Colony of Scotland under Control, that soon the will experience what it feels like, to be suppressed and second class native in your own Country, just like Scotland has for the past three hundred years,
The elite are more than ready to sell you down the river and colonise you, England,
Alf Baird.
Northcode,
Indeed the feeling of hitting one’s head against the Colonial brick wall is dishearting, and You and I could just give up
But then,
I think of a farm, wher animals have been caged for so long they have no idea there is a world of freedom and new pasture,
They have been spoon fed false food for generations, they have no idea the nutrition of their own resources just outside their door,
I want them to be able to live, breath and be free for the period of their lifespan,
Do I give up and leave them with shite food no fresh air, no blue Sky and no possibility to feel the ground under their feet, to feel freedom for themselves?
They need to take that first step and bolt as soon as someone unlocks the door,
Well it is no different with humans.
They need to know there are other possibilities out there, and need to take that first brave step for towards freedom for themselves,
Iam to old to run around the new pasture now with them now , haveing spent a crippling life under Colonial bars,
But once when I was younger I remember what freedom felt like and will never forget the joy and elation,
When you know that someone in the backgound has your best interests at heart and will pick you up when you fall, nuture and still care for you in years to come,
That is the same with all good wisdom, , wether it is parenting a child or parenting a nation,
We cannot give up on either.
“They need to know there are other possibilities out there, and need to take that first brave step for towards freedom for themselves”
I can’t argue with you on that, James. And maybe you’re right and I’m wrong.
There surely can’t be any harm in trying every tactic we can think of to wake up those Scots who don’t yet see the reality they’re living in – that don’t yet see they’ve been conned by a hoax.
Northcode
None of the three of us are wrong, were all approaching the the same problem from different angles, but we all recognise the various problems Scotland has, and aim towards the same goal, independence for Scotland, undoubtable there are a few hurdles to overcome,
But all thoughts and remedies are welcome, and all important, what I enjoy most is not every one is the same, that is really to be admired,
God help us if we were all copies of NS or her hubby, or Rushi or Humsaf,
The only side I take is for a independent Scotland,