Running the numbers
So, there’s been quite a response to our interview in today’s Times.
The interview was an interesting one in itself that we might talk more about later this weekend, but let’s leave that aside for now and talk about the headline take, because as usual the Scottish media is presenting it in a remarkably dishonest manner.
Absolutely nobody is planning to “take on the SNP” or “split the independence vote”. The idea – and it’s only a half-formed thought at the moment, we’re not “in talks” with anyone – would be for a party that would contest the regional list only.
In 2016 the SNP got 954,000 list votes – the highest total ever recorded on the list by a mile, and almost exactly the same as the combined Labour and Tory tally of 960,000. But those votes got Nicola Sturgeon’s party just 4 list seats, while the same number secured a massive 45 list MSPs for Ruth Davidson and (at the time) Kezia Dugdale.
So the SNP’s list vote is almost completely wasted, and if those votes went to another pro-independence party they could deliver a much better return in terms of securing a Yes majority at Holyrood. So far nothing we didn’t already know.
The problem with that theory – as this site itself has detailed at length in the past – is that SNP voters largely don’t want to vote for extreme radical fringe parties like RISE or the Greens, if they’ve heard of them at all, which they probably haven’t. They don’t want to go to jail if they take more than one air flight a year, or fill women’s changing rooms and toilets with male rapists.
But what if there was an indy party with a widely-recognised “brand”, with moderate and sensible policies that didn’t terrify normal people? What then?
Two-thirds of Yes voters have heard of Wings Over Scotland, only 4% of them have a negative opinion of it, and 21% have an actively positive view, so let’s imagine for a moment, for the sake of argument, that these Wings-positive voters would at least be willing to consider voting for a Wings list party.
21% of Yes voters is roughly 320,000 people, or 40,000 for each of Scotland’s electoral regions. A list party securing 40,000 votes in a region would be more or less guaranteed two seats and quite possibly three. (The last seat in a region is typically won with 14-15,000 votes.)
That comes to 20+ seats, almost all of which would in this hypothetical scenario be taken from Unionist parties. (Remember, at present the SNP only has four list seats in total to lose.) The current Yes majority in Holyrood would increase from a fragile Greens-dependent five to a very comfortable buffer.
(The SNP would also no longer be vulnerable to things like the Greens teaming up with the Unionist parties and repealing the hugely popular Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act, and wouldn’t be able to be held hostage over the budget and forced into more policies that the electorate hates like the workplace parking levy, no matter how badly that policy has been misrepresented in the press.)
Of course, none of that is for sure. Liking a website doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll vote for it to be in Parliament. Or the SNP’s current poll lead – which guarantees it lots of constituency seats and almost no list ones – might fall, meaning SNP voters had more to risk by giving their list vote to someone else.
(In deciding whether or not to stand candidates, the primary consideration at all times would be if there was a risk of reducing pro-indy seats, in which case we wouldn’t.)
Almost anything could happen in the next 18 months. But in theory, if things stay broadly the same as they are now, a Wings party could succeed in maximising the independence vote and securing a Yes majority in a way that none of the previous attempts have had any chance of doing.
As we’ve said, it’s only a half-formed thought at the moment. We’ve sounded out a few people for opinions and feelings, and in some cases asked them if they might in principle consider running for it, but that’s as far as it’s gone.
Still, the early responses to the idea are encouraging:
(The SNP’s official line was a slightly bewildering one, because if they’ve delivered a second indyref by 2021 then this whole concept is obviously moot.)
Don’t suddenly start believing what it says in the Scottish press now, folks.
Sounds like a plan to me and I’d be happy to stand in the Aberdeenshire area. ?
I would vote SNP as usual, but given the chance to also vote for a Wings party I’d jump at the chance. Go for it!
Irma,
I second that.
Ian
Love it! I’ve been advocating something like this for quite some time. I had thought that Alec Salmond could have lead a new Scottish Indepence Party (SIP). For list votes but obviously not possible now as things have turned out. WOSFI would get our families list vote for sure!
Been saying for last couple of years we certainly need pro-yes candidates on list albeit ‘independent’ ones. Certainly a yes brand party would be welcome
[…] Wings Over Scotland Running the numbers So, there’s been quite a response to our interview in today’s Times. The interview […]
Yes first vote (SNP), yes second vote (willing to trade SNP for something, but not for any enviro or socialist nutjobs)
It’s a staggeringly brilliant idea in theory. Practically though, anybody who stands would be subjected to all sorts of nasty tricks from the press, media and the Unionist troops.
Candidates would need to be resilient, confident and have no qualms about being subjected to malignant smears.
But, with the right people, it’s a sound concept.
OK. I need to go away and think about this, and listen to others thoughts, but there’s an underlying note of sense here and a small, seductive frisson of excitement….
Would be great to have somewhere sensible and safe to park my list vote. If the Conservatives describe this as despicable then its on the same level as the conservatives
I would be very happy to vote Wings on the list.
In a Pre indyref election, a lot here would surely depend on SNP Endorsement at some level.
SNP/SNP voters may not lend their vote without some form of endorsement the SNP/Wings party could work together cooperatively.
If post indy, why not, Scotland will need new political parties.
“…a [wings] party that would contest the regional list only.”
Interesting idea. No hurry at the moment but… Next year definitely the most important one for Scotland, SNP and independence.
Oh, threatening to steal the list votes? What a wonderful idea.
It is despicable, wicked and deliciously mischievous and a practical approach to boosting the independence vote.
You are not going to be loved in some quarters for taking away a free pass to a seat in our parliament.
I look forward to developments.
SNP for for the constituency vote and Wings for the regional vote? That could work, particularly if it keeps out those pathetic seat-warming Tories and other British Nationalist parties that only get in on the list.
I think it’s a great idea. There is no real opposition to Nicola. She’s surrounded herself with nice wee middle class lassies and yes men.
We need anther indy viewpoint and that’s not the Greens.
I like the idea of ‘gaming’ a system that was designed to ensure the SNP never achieved a majority in the Scottish parliament.
Having read the Times article I assume we all must start calling you Mr. Campbell from now on.
I’m gonna stick my head above the parapet here and admit to being an SNP member but I would, as others clearly have already intimated, consider voting WoS party in the list section of the next Holyrood election should there be a WoS party standing which if indy has been won in a referendum then you can forget everything I’ve just said cause as Mr. Campbell says the idea of a WoS party in that scenario would indeed be a moot one.
I’d vote for it.
For me this is what I have been waiting for.
I am an SNP voter but like many, have been turned off them off late due to their wishy-washy stance on many issues. I just think presently they aren’t listening to their voters about really important issues, mainly independence and when to call the vote and self ID.
Many colleagues and friends feel the same and would welcome an alternative that speaks for those who want independence and to call a stop to the self ID nonsense. The more I read, the more I honestly think that a Wings party would appeal to many within the SNP presently. I sadly don’t recognise the SNP anymore and want an alternative that speaks for me, my want for women and for Scotlands future.
Thanks for the explanation, Rev, if it can take more list seats then I’m in.
What’s not to like, I would vote Wings on the list to strengthen the numbers in Holyrood. Tired of listening to the constant negative rhetoric from the pro unionist parties.
We need people in our parliament willing to work together for the betterment of the Scotland, not Westminster.
Brand it as ‘Yes Movement’, not as ‘Wings’ And don’t try to run it yourself.
LOL. Pint of milk with a straw.
Would sir prefer vellocet, synthemesc or drencrom?
Stu, This is genius and I for one would do everything to promote. I’ll give cash, as much as I possibly can. Can we please make this happen.
bejeezuz
cat pigeons spanner works
bloody brilliant
yooniverse in meltdown
but, but, my precious precious sinecure
aaaaahaaaaahaaaaaahaaaaaa
I said that someone should do this a couple of weeks ago & Yes Wings! You are the ONE.
Let’s do this!
Have you already checked to see if Paul Kavanagh would stand somewhere?
Also I think The Wee Ginger Dug would be an ideal candidate for a seat in the south of Edinburgh, or an Aberdeen area, or a Dumfries Area.
Good grief I never thought about it before, there are so many places where the dug would be a shoe in. Ah! but is he naturalised or could he be a victim of the hostile environment dirty tricks brigade.
As a slavishly loyal follower, I must say Massa has a good idea here.
Competing only in the list seats can only do good for the Yes cause.
It needs to be carefully explained to voters before any election. SNP must always come first as it is the only route to independence, but a dozen or so WOS seats from the list could make all the difference.
You got my vote. I can’t vote for a party that tries to convince me that sex is a spectrum.
I think you would be a breathe of fresh air with oodles of commonsense, (and sweeties).
Yupffurritt?
Oh aye!
‘magine Wings, by some fluke, wins most seats. Rev Stu as FM.
LOLOLOLOL!!!!!
Hope this isn’t necessary but if it is it will meed a great amount of coordination In the meantime I’m trying to raise funds to supply merchandise to the wider network of Yes groups for any upcoming campaign.
Time is of essence as Brexit will cause serious disruption to imports.
Please give what you can, share and support.
Thanks link to gofundme.com
Already a plus Stu, with all this WoS PR from loonyuni papers.
Kininvie
I agree. Brand it as “Yes Movement” or similar.
Has to be branded as ‘ wings over Scotland ‘ surely ?
I would encourage this. Toppling out some of the Murdos and Annie’s would be a great help. I would stand for election.
Interesting idea, Stu.
Pesonally, I find it deeply galling to see minor parties flaunt the size of their vote at Holyrood when their representation is almost wholly comprised of second-rate list MSPs who couldn’t win a real election in a million years.
Any option which gives us more bang for our independence vote buck is worth a shot. And the thought that an SNP-light party would weed out some of the Yoon deadwood at the same time is just a pleasant bonus.
I take it that reversion from d’Hondt to first-post-the-post has been considered and rejected?
OMG just think we could have intelligent , honest people with integrity representing Scottish voters instead of kelly, turdo, annie where’s ma brain ,tRuthless , and all the other voting fodder , what’s not to like , and as others have said it will help keep others feet to the fire
Go for it Stuart rattle the yoonisphere and send a panic in their breastie
This is a pretty bloody brilliant idea.
The quote from the SNP spokesperson that another vote on independence will have been held before 2021 was very encouraging.
Until recently I believed that the Electoral Commission would stamp down on this kind of thing but they have allowed it in the recent bye election in Wales and there is not doubt that such a move on the list if the SNP agreed to stand only on constitueency that it would take about 23- 26 seats from the unionists on the lists. I have had hypothetical discussions with two SNP parliamentarians and neither were averse to the idea. One even said Like SNP2 to which I replied I didnt think the electoral commission would allow that close a tie up
Want Independence?
Vote YIP (YES Independence Party)
I can’t lie Rev Stu, I am divided by your proposal.
I agree 110% with what you say about a second Pro Indy party, but you and Wings are most valuable to the cause doing what you’re already doing, and that void in Scottish politics, that lack of ambition, in my opinion is really an opening that’s been waiting patiently for the YES movement to evolve into a focused and determined political party.
A YES Party with a colourful spectrum of candidates like Peter Bell, Craig Murray, maybe even a certain Mr Salmond, a Wee Ginger Dug perhaps, maybe a Professor Robertson, Ms Riddoch, Mr Bateman,… already ticks the same boxes for recognisable corporate identity as Wings. Of course, there is the obvious problem that YES has had 5 years to evolve into a political party but hasn’t done so… but just because it hasn’t, doesn’t mean it won’t.
But shooting from the hip, I fear politicising Wings into a Party feels like putting a very valuable square peg into a round hole, while we already have a redoubtable round peg in waiting with YES on it, which just needs to get it’s act together.
For what it’s worth, that’s my initial gut feeling. Please don’t give up the day job, … but we should definitely get the YES band back together,… and get them winning seats from Unionists and focussing the minds of the SNP.
It does however feel a moot argument to be having now. It feels out of its time. For me, October will be the making or breaking of Scotland and it’s SNP Government. We will be established as sovereign over our own destiny, or we’ll be living with the consequences of another gutless capitulation.
Started a poll on our Yes Stirling page link to facebook.com
The natural counter-move, of course, is the creation of the ‘British Unionist Party’.
Whenever a Tory calls you ‘despicable’, just remind them of the comments that Boris Johnson has made or published about Scotland.
I’ll support this. Much much harder for the SNP to be ‘gamed’ by the British Establishment if all our eggs aren’t in the one basket.
I expect this is going to upset the SNP establishment big time if you go for it. Which will be rather telling given the way the numbers stack up. Expect lots of criticism about ‘splitting’ the vote when in actual fact your talking about maximising the YES vote.
Take care.
I like this as an idea and is worth pursuing. As such, it’s only fair to bring up various problems I foresee with it.
1. People don’t understand the list system and so we end up splitting the pro-indy vote in bad ways.
2. Media focus on what a horrible person Stu is. Not a problem as such, but the current SNP likely to be pressured into issuing denouncements rather than gettaefucks, thus looking weak.
i would like to in advance to apply for the minister of weed legislation position?
A very simple idea, but one approaching genius.
Definitely up for that – go for it!
I support this idea, I also agree with kininvie though about the branding. You’d want as broad an appeal to all the voters of Scotland as possible and Wings tbh is not everyone’s cup of tea.
I was actually saying to my partner the other day how we need a new indy party in Scotland. One that will actually prioritise getting us our independence (and so to that end not tread on the SNP’s toes where vote splitting would hurt the cause) rather than the current American-pushed woke nonsense and ‘Now is not the time’ craven House Jocking current SNP senior management seem happy with.
Your idea is genius, I love it! Could be exactly the right idea at exactly the right time – I think it would definitely catch on with the wider Yes movement if it would demonstrably help indy. The SNP have gone all New Labour and would be toast by now if it wasn’t for them dangling the indy carrot in front of the Yes movement. A second credible party might mean they’d up their game and start listening to the electorate too.
Rev Stu, you danced with the devil.
And you knew that wee sh.. head would spin it in some ridiculous fashion.
So. Where do you want to take it from here?
A full and frank discussion of your ideas with the SNP would, I think, be wise. Dare say you have been there and done that.
It is worth getting this right. Or I, personally, will walk 500 miles (or so) and kick your ass to kingdom come 🙂
Am sure it won’t come to that. I do trust you. And Bath is a really long way away, with bears where you least expect them =)
@Proud Cybernat
The natural counter-move, of course, is the creation of the ‘British Unionist Party’.
Doesn’t work, they can only win list seats from those Tories/Lab/Lib that are already in them. A British Ubionist party would make zero gains for the prop British Nationalists. Might even help them lose seats 🙂
I’d vote for Satan if he got rid of Murdo Fraser.
I’m guessing Stu wouldn’t stand as a candidate?
>”Brand it as ‘Yes Movement’, not as ‘Wings’ And don’t try to run it yourself.”
Needs the word ‘Independence’ in the name to be completely clear.
Nice idea but hopefully unneeded – unless an early Holyrood election is called in a no-deal brexit scenario and continued s30 refusal
This is a perfect idea..But hopefully not just if we don’t have the referendum before 2021!
I must confess that I’ve been worried about “life after Yes” since you proclaimed this year’s fund raised as ” The Last Call”
I wondered how we could keep them ( the Politicians and so called Civic Scotland ) honest
Please think about “doing it anyway” we need representatives in Holyrood for more than the getting of Independence.
We need them for the framing of it too!
Another problem: Running an election campaign is ludicrously expensive.
Murdo won’t be happy.
I’m a devotee of James Kelly and I unreservedly support his views on “gaming” the D’Hondt system of counting votes. That’s why I jump all over the RISE and Solidarity supporters who pose as yes voters, when in fact they are first and foremost RISE or Solidarity supporters and yes voters second. I deeply mistrust their motives and advise everyone I can to take their “common sense approach” with a huge pinch of salt.
However, we are now entering a different phase of the independence campaign, and have to look forward to soliciting international support for any Declaration of Independence, and representation in Holyrood could be critical. There is now a definite swing towards independence in Scotland, and perhaps now is the time to lay aside our “insurance” attitude towards the regional vote. I’ve always looked at my regional vote as being “insurance” against failure in the constituency election. Yes, my vote will be “wasted” if (as happened before) the SNP “sweep the board” in the NE region constituencies, but I’d rather that, than take the chance of voting for another Indy party, only to see the SNP lose a constituency seat AND the “D’Hondt compensatory” regional seat.
I am now reasonably confident that (certainly in the NE region), the SNP will again ” sweep the board” and win all ten NE constituency seats. The idea that we could use our second vote to elect a couple (at least) of “Wings” seats is very attractive, particularly since we can rely on Stu not to “mealymouth” about the reasons for standing candidates. I’m sure he would be blatant about why he was doing it. I think I’m just about convinced that Stu’s reasoning and arithmetical calculations are about right. (We’ll have to think of a name, other than just Wings …. perhaps “Grand Ideas Regarding Unionism’s Yuckiness” (GIRUY) Party? ?
If this was an attempt to set up a party for the Westminster elections, I’d fight against it, but if it were to be deployed in a Holyrood election, I think I’m in……
@ Gizzit says at 2:57 pm … ”It’s a staggeringly brilliant idea in theory. Practically though, anybody who stands would be subjected to all sorts of nasty tricks from the press, media and the Unionist troops.”..
And well they wouldn’t have far to go to dig up all sorts on Stu, in line with what Farquarson points out in the article …”why does he think it is acceptable to use a phrase like “die, you c***” about someone he disagrees with, or to say to someone: “I hope you die in a chemical fire.” The MSM would have a field day with this resulting in many Scots having second thoughts about Independence altogether, imo.
And when we get right down to the nitty-gritty how would the potential Wings candidates that Stu has ”sounded out’, like Craig Murray no doubt, actually campaign? By running the SNP candidates down to the ground just as Stu has been doing recently? If so, how will that help the cause?
Stu should stick to what he does best of all, imo, and that is outing journalists and pro-UK politicians .. even that has been put on the back burner more recently… and focusing in getting the WBB out.
long lurk, first time post, for its a great idea.
have long felt scooping the second votes would be significantly more productive than voting twice for the party.
oh, and the thought of your style of questioning in parliament fair tickles the imagination.
got both our votes and feet on the ground in the hebrides.
It sounds like a grand plan to me. Can I be the MSP for Provence please?
@ Richardinho says at 4:08 pm … ”Another problem: Running an election campaign is ludicrously expensive.”
That shouldn’t be a problem Richardinho with Farquarson pointing out in the article that, ”Stu claims to have raised £900,000 in crowdfunding for Wings Over Scotland over the past seven years.” Add to that regular donations.
Yes I’d vote for a Wings party on the list. I’ve always voted a different Indy supporting party for my second vote and your articles on the website leave nobody in any doubt as to where you stand on issues.
Surely, the answer is to ‘copy’ the Brexit party. Form a YES party, no policies other than Independence and only stand as a list candidate. Pledge to support the SNP get the Referendum and Independence.
It could be a winner and thwart the Unionist parties from getting seats. It might even help towards making Holyrood a ‘Tory Free Zone’.
It’s a great idea whether we have held the referendum or not. I can’t think of a better way of removing the Britnat dross that pollute our Parliament, other than throwing them in prison. As an Independent State we can’t risk having a shower of potential 5th columnists sitting in our Parliament trying to undermine the transition process on behalf of a foreign power( Westminster).
@Thepnr
Get what you’re saying but they can see the size of the SNP’s list vote just like the rest of us can. They’ll be crunching the numbers and seeing the number of seats they (i.e. the BritNat parties) will potentially lose. So, faced with the prospect of losing about 20+ list seats with the formation of Y.I.P., the BritNat parties could decide to form a counter B.U. Party as a tactical move to prevent losing 20+ list seats.
Just spent £2 good scottish quid on the Times,
actually feel sick reading some of the journalism,it`s the same crap written from the same hacks for the last 10 to 15 years,
an insulated bubble of pretentious, priveleged little englanders and their Scottish lapdogs,
and the interview with Stu could have been written by a monkey or a Herald hack,
who teaches these hacks ,surely there must be some story telling ability or skill to make it as a journalist,
always new Kenny F was a paid for unionist but didn`t realise what an incompetent journalist he is.
Well, I have been a strong supporter of independence for many years, but I am also a Green. That is where my list vote goes. Very sad to see all the anti-Green nonsense on here.
That really is divisive.
An interesting idea and I think I like it. I agree with Onwards re the name etc.
I am not convinced that the idea loses its value in the event of an earlier “yes” vote.
We won’t be out instantly, and I think there is considerable value in minimising the number of die-hard unionists in the Scottish Parliament trying to queer the pitch during negotiations with the colonial power.
@petra
I don’t believe this or any of the other problems I listed are necessarily insurmountable. I think they do have to be considered though.
If needed I’ll vote for your party!
The fact it’ll piss off sooo many is deliciously brilliant…
Oh and evil of course. Goes without saying. 😀 😀 😀
@Thepnr
Thinking this through – I suppose if Y.I.P. and any BritNat equivalent Party received 50% each of the List Vote (as presently indicated in the polls), then that would pretty much split the list seats more or less 50-50 in which case the Indy side would have many, many more seats.
Yeah – liking this idea more and more cause there’s no’ much the BritNats can do about it (other than their usual smear &c, &c…)
Good idea. Hope you intend standing as a candidate. 😉
Am I missing something here?
Does not the list vote require a registered political party to nominate candidates for a constituency before getting the chance of one from their own party’s list?
I cannot say I ever remember any party stipulating candidates only for their list without also standing candidates for seats in the election.
Yes they do have candidates on the list who have not also stood for a seat but that is not quite the same as drawing up only a list of candidates. I’d have to look up the rules and I cannot be bothered just now as it takes me all my time to be able to read the computer screen and I have to quit when I begin to get eyestrain headaches.
I’m almost certain the rules mean you only get the chance of gaining a list seat in a constituency if you have a candidate standing for election first but I don’t know if that applies to standing in individual constituencies or to constituencies in general.
As a loyal member of the SNP all I can say is tut tut. (As a supporter if Independence I always wondered why someone didn’t do that before. Then beauty is that Stuart is not the SNP in any form, so there could be no Unionists attempts to get it challenged by the electoral commission) Of course if we ran as candidates we would be booted out of the SNP, but that might be a small price to shafting the distorted electoral system thought up by the Unionists for Holyrood which was meant to enshrine About/Lid Dem hegemony for ever.
I have been suggesting that idea for a long time.
There is absolutely no point in voting “SNP twice” since if the SNP win the vast majority of FPTP seats, it becomes almost impossible for additional SNP seats to be gained via the “List” vote. (Despite what some reality-denying mathematically-challenged patriots may think !)
Problem is you can’t be a member of the SNP and any other party at the same time. (Against SNP constitution)
So setting up another Party for patriots to vote for purely in the “List” vote makes sense.
Count me in.
Would have to see who, what, where and when at the time.
Reserving judgement.
I remember you pondering such a prospect with a hypothetical Alex Salmond led party after he took his name off the SNP membership list.
The SNP spokesman comment alludes to a point which has been winding me up quite a bit for quite a while, though. All of this concedes to the notion that there’s no prospect of the current mandate for an independence referendum being properly processed by the established protocol with a Section 30 Order forthcoming. That is premature but, tragically, understandable. I’ve lost count of the number of newspaper articles I’ve seen which have rambled on at length having unquestioningly and summarily embraced various and several unionist’s promises to “refuse permission” for indyref2 as absolutely valid and legitimate intentions that they would have a perfectly accepted right to carry out – but it’s not true. You, Rev, of all people, should know that.
No one has a right to “refuse permission” or REJECT the request for the Section 30 Order. It’s been said that they do over and over in the press (probably on TV, too. I don’t watch so can’t be sure) and almost everyone believes it but it’s a HUGE LIE. It’s a classic example of “If you’re going to tell a lie, make it so big no one can see past it”. It’s been so successful, it has created a misperception of the reality so pervasive that reality is in serious danger of being irretrievably supplanted by the lie. It may, in fact, be too late, already. I hope not.
In truth, the UK government, it’s offices and officers are required to follow UK constitutional protocol established in 2012 and issuing our Section 30 Order is part of that. There’s been a delay but the requirement remains.
The word ‘Yes’ is one of our best weapons, so I’d agree with those suggesting that for the party name. Would also mean publicity material for the party could easily be used for the referendum itself, if it takes places later than 2021.
The idea itself is rock solid, obviously.
Nicola: “Treeza – I want a Section 30 to hold a 2nd Referendum.”
Treeza: “Nicola. Now is not the time.”
Nicola: “Well when?”
Treeza: “When I’m booted out of office and Johnson takes the reins. Indy will be a shoe-in for you then.”
Nicola. “Oh – good plan, Treeza. I’ll hold off till then. Ta.”
I have suggested for some time that an “independence coalition” should contest the list seats,not the SNP. Had we done this at the last election (instead of having SNP, Greens,SSP and Solidarity spliting an independence vote and giving us Annie Wells)we would haver got around 95 seats or more. I would of course require the progressive parties to get together and form a formal alliance but would allow some great candidates to be elected.
With reference to my previous post.
I don’t know what I was thinking about. Of course a party cannot only stand on the list because seats on the list are totally dependent upon the proportion of votes the party gets for candidates for seats. It is the proportion of total votes for constituencies that governs the number of list seats the party gets. If they do not get votes on the constituencies they get no proportion for votes on the list.
The whole idea is a non-runner.
Great idea
It would require experts to plan and organise
Bad press would be certain , so what, we get that no matter what
Perhaps organising in advance who exactly ie which voters in which seats would vote for these List MP,s that are put forward for election could be done so that the general population were not confused by the arrangement
Would that be possible ?
I would vote for it. I would also go out and canvass for Wings candidates (please keep nutters to a minimum)?
I don’t mind resigning from SNP and giving the £ to the Wings campaign. I am hanging on by a thread due to their lack of urgency about Indy, feeble rebuttals of media lies and ridiculous anti-woman trans-virtue-signalling.
Why don’t you test the water and get everyone to subscribe £1 to a future Wings list campaign? If we get Indy before that the cash can go to good causes (not food banks because we won’t need them after Indy, maybe an educational prize for student journalists from poor background ?).
I am excited… this could work!
.
Hi Stuart,
I just got a telephone call from one of the group who run a website called Calum’s List.
One of their team was in tears at your Times newspaper interview: in a good way.
She asked me to express her thanks and the heartfelt appreciation of Calum’s List that you were thoughtful enough to acknowledge the billionaire Tory Westminster austerity slaughter of thousands of those sick, ill and disabled people who have died at the altar of welfare reform. That interview was a fascinating piece. More power to your elbow.
Stuart Campbell, you are a good and decent human being.
Best wishes,
Al.
http://www.calumslist.org
Seems there are a few on here who are not fully understanding this move…. there are some who appear to think that it’s a choice between SNP or Wings, or using it to say that it might damage the SNP vote.
It’s simple
We get two votes in the Scottish election.
One vote for the Constituency MSP
and
One vote for the Regional(List) MSP
You give the first vote to SNP
You give the second vote to WOS
Simple.
A good and solid plan but I somehow do not think there will be much cooperation from the SNP. Good luck Stewart
@Dave McEwan Hill
There is no better reason to stand yes coalition slots than annie wells.
From Wikipedia in 2016:
Contesting regional ballot only:
Clydesdale and South Scotland Independent – contesting South Scotland
Communist Party – contesting North East Scotland
National Front – contesting North East Scotland only
RISE – Respect, Independence, Socialism and Environmentalism –
contesting all regions
Scottish Christian Party “Proclaiming Christ’s Lordship” – contesting
Highlands and Islands and North East
Solidarity – Scotland’s Socialist Movement – contesting all regions
UK Independence Party – contesting all regions
Women’s Equality Party – contesting Lothian and Glasgow
So WoS could certainly contest just the regional list.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Sounds good, would be torn though because have a decent Green list MP in the Highlands. If this gets traction though I’m in.
@ Richardinho says at 4:40 pm – ”petra – ”I don’t believe this or any of the other problems I listed are necessarily insurmountable. I think they do have to be considered though.
I’m hoping that they won’t be considered at all, Richardinho. That it won’t happen. We’re getting there without forming a new party. And how Stu Campbell thinks that his idea is going to help the SNP, help us to get our Independence is beyond me, when he’s constantly attacking Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP.
He says, ”don’t suddenly start believing what it says in the Scottish press now, folks.” Well we’ll believe it when they inform us that the owner of the Wings site, the so-called pro-Independence site, doesn’t have a half decent word to say about the SNP. We’ll believe it for over and above the many articles on here now relating to himself, the others on here, and on his twitter account, are drip, drip, drip SNP Baad.
Is the point of the voting system not to represent the % of first votes in a proportional type way.
I.e you get 50% of the list vote then you get roughly that amount of MSP’S.
That pretty much happens already and has done for last 20 years.
No! Nae! Nyet!Non!Chan eil
,
Let us get Independence and then have a sensible voting system!
@ Robert Peffers says at 5:19 pm ….. ”With reference to my previous post. I don’t know what I was thinking about. Of course a party cannot only stand on the list because seats on the list are totally dependent upon the proportion of votes the party gets for candidates for seats. It is the proportion of total votes for constituencies that governs the number of list seats the party gets. If they do not get votes on the constituencies they get no proportion for votes on the list. The whole idea is a non-runner.”
Thanks for that Robert. Just makes me wonder what’s actually going on here?
.
If a WoS/ListVote/2021 works well and is technically possible, resulting an absolute Indy majority, does that also give us a chance to finally SACK MURDO FRASER?
Robert Peffers
What? Utter nonsense. The Greens stood no candiadtes excepot on the lists.
@Bob Costello says:10 August, 2019 at 5:37 pm:
” … A good and solid plan but I somehow do not think there will be much cooperation from the SNP. Good luck Stewart.”
I’m going to hazard a guess that Stu is pulling legs both of the MSM and now Wingers. Stu is as sharp as the proverbial tack and I just do not believe he hasn’t long ago worked out that his, “Master Plan”, is and was always a non-starter. Mind you I have to admit I did not jump immediately to the conclusion and I’m not usually that slow but unless I’m very much mistaken this idea is a non-starter.
To get seats on the list is dependent upon the proportion of votes a party gets from constituency seats it stands in. This is the basis of the convoluted calculation necessary to work out how the list seats are allocated.
So if you do not stand candidates in the constituencies your proportion of votes from the constituencies will be zero and thus it doesn’t matter who you put as first on your list they get no chance of getting a seat in Holyrood.
I believe Stu is having the MSM on and they fell for it and, so it seems, have Wingers. So, Wingers, it is time to get to the MSM numpties in their comments columns and point out they were fools – but what’s new about that?
Stuart ,
I see that your interview has made it onto bbc Scotlandshire website 20 minutes ago and they say it’s it to take on the snp and split the Indy vote . Also their quoting again that you lost your case against Keiza . ??
Link to bbc –
link to bbc.co.uk
Gets my vote.
There are massive problems in creating a list of prospective parliamentary candidates.
Keeping the wife beaters, sex abusers, fraudsters, thieves tax cheats and closet racists off it to cite the most obvious.
Then there is keeping on the right side electoral commission.
Are you REALLY sure you up to this?
Sounds like the Tories (blue) are shitting themselves already. I’d certainly consider voting for a Wings candidate on the regional list. Go for it.
i’m all ears for a strategy that disables the D’Hondt voting system, and so rids Scotland of the Regional List Unionist dross who defile the Scottish Parliament.
A hands-off fund raiser by Wings, to create a single issue Yes party, for independence, appeals. I’m sympathetic to the Green party’s policies but doubt that a cluster of List Greens would move independence forward. Committed Indy list MSPs certainly would.
Tell me more.
Isn’t it just surprising.
Just as, in the face of continuous massive anti Independence propaganda across all our media, independence takes the lead in polls, the SNP goes further ahead in all polls and a significant majority of people in Scotland now believe that Scotland is moving to independence lots of pretendy supporters pop up attacking the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon
Or not surprising at all………
………as the prospective West of Scotland candidate Jamie Green is a fud.
Vote for Independence, vote Hamish
This is easier than I thought!
@ D M H – the Greens did stand a few candidates in Constituencies. If you remember there was a lot of criticism of them splitting the vote in Edinburgh Central thus letting Ruth Davidson in with a constituency seat. Also someone in the Borders did the same. The Greens typically got 800 votes in the constituencies which was roughly the margin by which the SNP candidate lost to a unionist.
.
Petra,
Please open your eyes and also close your paranoia that anyone not slavishly SNP is automatically SNP-BAAAAD.
A huge number of SNP members came from people being abandoned by Labour. I am one of those. I am NOT wedded to the SNP. I am critical when it is called for.
Too many SNP folk here and elsewhere jump all over ANY poor soul who dares to offer up positive criticism of the SNP.
Stuart Campbell is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT to call out the SNP high command when it gets things wrong.
Otherwise you end up in George Orwell’s 1984 or some similar dystopian situation. The SNP need to be resilient enough to understand when it gets things wrong and remedy that matter.
I still vote SNP but am by no means wedded to the party as the SNP let a charity we run down in an underhand and disgusting manner. Fiona Hyslop and her wee group cost many SNP votes because of that, but I digress.
Petra, if I may go ON TOPIC and answer your knee-jerk allergy to what Stuart Campbell is proposing by quoting the wise Dave McEwan Hill, as he says it best…..
QUOTE:
Dave McEwan Hill says: 10 August, 2019 at 5:19 pm
I have suggested for some time that an “independence coalition” should contest the list seats, not the SNP. Had we done this at the last election (instead of having SNP, Greens,SSP and Solidarity spliting an independence vote and giving us Annie Wells) we would have got around 95 seats or more. It would of course require the progressive parties to get together and form a formal alliance but would allow some great candidates to be elected.
END QUOTE
Dave McEwan Hill says:
10 August, 2019 at 6:03 pm
Robert Peffers
What? Utter nonsense. The Greens stood no candiadtes excepot on the lists.””
………
I thought the Greens stood candidates in at least 3 constituencies in the 2016 Holyrood elections. Edinburgh Central was one of them was it not? Ruth Davidson won the seat that had previously been held by the SNP.
@Robert Peffers
You are wrong on this.
The divisor used to calculate d’hondt is based on the constituency seats won and the regional seats won after the d’Hondt calculation.
The Wings party will start with a divisor of one (zero constituency seats plus one) like any other party or individual that has not won a constituency seat. The regional vote is divided by the divisor and the winner is the party or individual with the biggest vote divided by the divisor.
If Wings wins a seat then the divisor goes up by one and the calculation is redone. This coninues until all seats are won.
This is all fantasy, someone’s ego has got the better of them!
People come here to see like minded views and the dishonesty of the uk and Scottish press plus bbc exposed.
People will desert in droves instantly if this ego is not placed back in its box!
If anyone was to know how this would be spun by the opponents of independence it’s the person that gave the interview.
Nuff said, I hope this nonsense os put to bed quickly!
@ Dave McEwan Hill says at 6:14 pm …. ”Isn’t it just surprising. Just as, in the face of continuous massive anti Independence propaganda across all our media, independence takes the lead in polls, the SNP goes further ahead in all polls and a significant majority of people in Scotland now believe that Scotland is moving to independence lots of pretendy supporters pop up attacking the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon. Or not surprising at all………”
Yeah the ”pretendy supporters” are fairly crawling out of the woodwork now.
……………………
And here we go. That’s it started.
”He (Stuart Campbell) told The Times: “I think the SNP is a shambles at the moment. It doesn’t know what it’s doing.”
link to bbc.co.uk
A plus point for this idea is that it will remind the SNP that they don’t own the independence movement and they wont be allowed to get away with stalling.
1000% behind that idea…..I know I’d vote for a wings party
Robert Peffers at various points.
What you are saying is categorically untrue, as others have pointed out.
The 1st vote is for who you wish to represent your constituency.
The 2nd vote is for which party you wish to make up government.
The 2 votes are not connected in any way, shape or form. There is no obligation to vote for the same party on both lists.
The point where D’Hondt kicks in to make it proportional, is the number of Seats not votes .
The number of votes on the 2nd ballot are divided by the number of seats that a party has won in the 1st ballot. The highest number of weighted votes then gets the 1st Region seat and so on.
For a politically aware group of readers it’s quite staggering that some people still don’t understand a voting system that’s been in place for 20 years and has had many articles written on it.
@ Robert Peffers.
Aye Robert, he may well be flying a kite, just for the hell of it or as prelude to something else. So my minds open,because we need a plan. Whether Indy’s been run and won or still pending matters not. The Holyrood elections in 2021 would appear to be a milestone for Westminster and their ragtag of followers in Scotland. So thinking hats need to be on.
I’ve already suggested petitions as a way of expressing the will of the sovereign people of Scotland, petitions that challenge Westminster and catch the imagination of people across the globe.
I trust Nicola to deliver a referendum, which I believe we will win, but 2021 needs to be thought about.
@george wood says: 10 August, 2019 at 6:21 pm:
… You are wrong on this.
Am I?
Well here is what it says on the Holyrood Parliament website. If I’m wrong then so is the Holyrood parliament. This is a cut & paste:-
Sadly this will just play into the unionists hands. At a time where they are imploding left, right and centre along comes this story which will be gleefully seized upon to remove the unionist dysfunction from the nations media. And lo, it came to pass. You’ve made headline news across Scotland removing the rolling trainwreck that is unionist political parties from the papers and TV.
Don’t expect the majority of the country to understand or even try to understand the nuance of what your intentions are because they will be ‘informed’ in the manner they’ve always been informed, by the unionist media.
I find the timing of this to be a little unfortunate coming as it does a few short days after a poll gives independence a 52% – 48% lead for the first time since the referendum 5 years ago.
I don’t know for sure but it’s a fair assumption that part of the reason for that boost in polling is the rumbling trainwreck of unionist parties being plastered all over the SMSM If that is replaced by some made up garbage about you taking on the SNP and splitting their vote, ‘cybernats’ etc, I just don’t think it’s going to help given the majority of the No voters don’t get their news via the internet. They get it via the usual channels.
Your good intentions will just get played by the media and it’ll give them the opportunity to take the tory, labour and lib dems off the front page.
There’s an old saying, don’t interupt your enemy while he’s making a mistake.
The unionist parties are making wall to wall mistakes like we’ve never seen before. Let them.
I’ll repeat the link for those who skimmed past:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Some parties stood in both ballots, some in the regional ballot only and some in constituencies only.
There is no rule saying you must stand in the constituency.
I’d be prepared to stand in SW Scotland if needed. Prof John Robertson
Most of the SNP’s List MSP’s are in the Border area, where Tories currently rule the roost.
The Central Belt produces none (?) So, I would concentrate on the Central Belt of Scotland. The SNP could put their List candidates for the Borders and Highlands.
I expect if the indy movement found a way to make the D’Hondt System work in their favour for a change, instead benefitting career politicians, most ( but not all of of them) Unionist, Holyrood wil be quickly “reformed” by Westminster.
I totally agree a d would put my list vote this way.
However I think we will be independent before the next Holyrood elections.
If a referendum is hd off till after that the momentum and rise for the cause will at best have levelled out at worst dropped off.
On a propoganda note have plenty of copies of my Wings over Scotland painting, with 2 Typhoon aircraft rebranded Scottish Air Force, with Wings insignia on the tail. £30 to me and £5 to Wings here to anyone who buys one.
Support the Wings cause.
Due to an imminent damming report on Good Morning Scotchland Hamish has decided to stand down as candidate for personal reasons says his agent and He did not have sex with that lioness.
Life is cruel.
@Proud Cybernat says:
10 August, 2019 at 5:13 pm
I realise that playlet was meant to be a satire but it’s not a million miles off.
“Treeza” did not come up with “Now is not the time” on her own. That phrase or something very like it was in the formal request letter from Nicola and the date for the 2nd referendum was always planned to be much later precisely to allow for the political landscape to become established and for proper campaigns to be developed. The chaos that followed could not have been foreseen.
So SNP are now stating there will be a ref before 2021. I wish they would tell us how!
@ Robert Peffers – in some cases, the number of seats won in the Constituencies is zero. I don’t see any technical reason why this proposal couldn’t work. And hey – wave to Prof John Robertson who is willing to stand in the South West. That’ fantastic news.
RE the fact that there will be a referendum before the next Holyrood election – allegedly. I don’t see why that should stop a genuine independence coalition from standing for parliament to ensure that the necessary legislation is passed quickly.
As long as the electorate understand that the New Independence Party is primarily a List party, there won’t be a problem.
BBC online Quoting Stu Campbell as saying the SNP are a shambles.
I didn’t remember Mr Campbell saying the SNP is a shambles in the above Times article so I had another quick/skim read again. No didn’t see it.
So are the BBC making up quotes now – it would appear so. If I am wrong please let me know – I promise I won’t bite.
On the face if it, an interesting idea.
But Wings candidates will be standing for the Scottish parliament and will be expected to have polices on issues beyond the single issue of indy. So will those candidates have to toe the Wings line on, for example, Gender Recognition, or parking levies? Or, beyond the single issue of indy, will they be free to have their own views on anything?
Either way, they’ll have to perform well on hustings, on radio and tv, and in newspaper interviews, or risk great damage to the wider cause, including the SNP. And it’s simply delusional for any regular commentator on this blog to believe their regular contribution here qualifies them as a potential MSP.
But, still, an interesting idea. Let’s see how it develops.
Posted this on the previous thread before I reaised this threa was up. Reostng because if you want to sign up, you have to do it before Monday:
Free online course from Glasgow University – Discover the Clans – you have until Monday to register. From the National:
Designed and delivered by the College of Arts, the course draws on the expertise of academics from across a number of Arts and Humanities research disciplines including Archaeology, Celtic & Gaelic, History and Literature, to bring the story of Scotland’s iconic clans to life.
Professor Roibeard Ó Maolalaigh, Vice Principal and Head of the College of Arts, said: “This exciting new course exemplifies the breadth of knowledge and world-class research being undertaken in the Arts and Humanities at the University of Glasgow in the broad area of Scottish history and culture.
“We drew on this vast expertise for the course’s creation to give the best and most up to date picture of Scotland’s iconic clan system.
link to archive.fo
I like Stuart Campbell because..
1. he has shown up the lazy, lazy, lazy, so-called ‘journalists’ of the so-called ‘scottish’ media, for what they are.
2. He writes with skill, crafting excellent analyses of the politics of Scotland.
3. He is surgically accurate in his demolition of the utterly absurd British nationalist/unionitst arguments against independence.
4. He winds up unionists to the nth degree.
5. He references every single fact source in every single article he writes – something NO other journalist I have read does. And doing such a thing is hard work.
6. He writes things like, “If my readers really were “slavish” and “highly suggestible” there’d be a lot more pineapple eaten on pizzas.” on twitter.
7. he seemingly (see 6) likes pineapple on pizza.
8. He has the balls to stand up for what he believes in (SNP, take note), takes no sh*t from anybody, and does not suffer fools gladly.
9. He pulls apart the utter nonsense spouted by politicians of all parties.
10. He uses FACTS to demonstrate the clarity and validity of his views.
As regards a ‘list’ pro indy party, I think it is a very, very good idea. And just think, the unionists can’t retaliate using the same tactic, since a new unionist ‘list’ party would lead to most Labour and Tory MSPs (who are mainly list) losing their seats. AND, importantly, it will make sure the SNP stop dithering – effectively holdling ‘their feet to the fire, too’.
Got my support.
Petra @ 6.22 PM
Totally agree and with your earlier posts.
This is ‘defeat from the jaws of victory’ stuff. It is aself-indulgent distraction at a time when the stars are aligning in our favour.
Excellent plan. I’d vote for it for sure and so would all my friends and family.
Squeaky clean candidates required (bad Onion Press and all that)
Oops – posted too soon – Petra added the link to the free registration for the history of the clans course:
This is the link for joining for free.
link to futurelearn.com
Come the time of a Holyrood election where Independence is up for grabs then a pact between the SNP and greens for the purpose of achieving the goal of Independence can be made. No need to split the list vote at all.
Oh and I can trust the parliament to vote against any law that would give ‘male rapists access to female toilets’ although I look forward to the new wings party candidates explaining that on tv to the punters as the major difference between them and the Greens come the election campaign.
“Come the time of a Holyrood election where Independence is up for grabs then a pact between the SNP and greens for the purpose of achieving the goal of Independence can be made.”
No it can’t. Not only is it not going to happen politically, it would be expressly against electoral law regarding Holyrood elections.
You could call it labour for indy if youcould hold your nose
Its certainly an interesting concept, even just proposing it might light a flame under the SNP to be more active in obtaining independence before you finally decide what to do.
OT
Prince Andrew sighs with relief
Facebook page, ‘SNP Hell no’ fairly salivating thinking it will split the Indy vote.
They really,really do not know how the voting system at Holyrood works.
This is not a new idea. It has been raised before. I am not against the idea in theory if it can be made to work. I am not an SNP member.
However, I do think the timing of raising this matter in the Britnat press is all wrong. The Britnat press with the usual lies of their propaganda journalists are spinning it as another Yes movement civil war. We do not need this at this point in time. Just let the Britnats keep kicking lumps out of each other and making a dogs dinner of Brexit.
The Holyrood election is not till 2001. Why why why take the focus away from the Britnat chaos?
@Robert Peffers
Robert, as the proposed party would win no constituency seats, their regional vote would initially be divided by 0+1. If that value is higher than the constituency vote of those parties who have won seats divide by (I think) 1+n ( where n is the number of con. seats won), they then gain a seat, their vote would be divide once more, but this time by 1+1. If that reduced value is still greater than the other parties initial list vote, divided using the same formula, they gain another seat, if not it goes to the party with the next highest vote divided by 0+1 or 1+n, whichever applies.In your scenario, how could any individual be able to be elected on the list?
Not everybody who votes for Independence is an SNP supporter, but it seems the only way to achieve it, another attacking point get the unionists in a crossfire great idea.
Add, after list on the last line of my post ‘as an independent MSP’.
As a long-time member of the SSP, I think the idea of a new party to hold the SNP feet the fire on independence is a won’t work. You won’t come close to getting a seat. I am not even sure you will split the indy vote in any meaningful way. Followers on twitter won’t translate into seats. Maybe it would be possible to combine your resources with groups that actually have some kind of outreach, but I am not sure who that would be since your enemies among the “Wokenats” are the most obvious allies in any alt-indy movement (unless you opt for going to the right of the SNP).
You would be far better off supporting candidates in the wing in the SNP that supports a hard-line on independence, or with a pro-indy anti-EU party, which may get some traction.
“You would be far better off supporting candidates in the wing in the SNP that supports a hard-line on independence, or with a pro-indy anti-EU party, which may get some traction.”
You don’t support candidates in the regional list. The SNP chooses them.
“Maybe it would be possible to combine your resources with groups that actually have some kind of outreach”
Who has more reach than us?
“I am not even sure you will split the indy vote in any meaningful way.”
No harm done, then.
Tom 6;55pm
Wings candidates would need no policies, just sit like sheep and vote with the SNP . . As it is Lib Dems, Labour, and the Tories collectively vote against the SNP without rhyme or reason.
@ Robert Louis
Totally agree with your post.
The SNP says it will use the mandates for indyref2 in 2020. We will be independent, once again, before the need for a wings party.
Hello Stuart,
This is a bad idea at this time. You will be introducing a new variable into the independence mix without any idea of how it will affect the result. You might ‘recon’ it will work but you have no concrete idea of the outcome. Please wait and see if the SNP make a mess of it – I do not think they will – but if they do so, then for sure go for it. If you want to affect the list just now then save some money and effort and throw your weight behind the greens – they are already there. Another party is not a good idea. As Labour disintegrate you are in danger of disintegrating the independence movement at the key moment. I have supported you through all of the crap the system has thrown at you but on this one I have to say that your judgement has to be questioned. I still cannot understand the decision of the court with regard to the Kezia case but it shows that your judgement and our expectations (my expectations) cannot take account of things beyond our control. Think how you will feel if you are the one who masterminds the undoing of out independence. Leave it alone please. Certainly for now. Lets see how this situation plays out. So far the SNP’s ‘plan’ is moving in our direction. Yes, I have had my doubts as to the tactics but you have to admit that so far the winds of Yes are blowing our ship towards independence – lets see what happens. Think Gorbachev not Yeltsin.
I’m in.
@Robert Peffers. That is not correct. If it was then Margo would not have been elected as an Independent. Others have used the same route to getting elected. The divisor, as others have said is how many seats you have won +1. So if Wings/YES Party do not win any Constituency seats then their divisor is 1. I include the Wikipedia link to bring you up to speed with it all.link to en.wikipedia.org
I lent my second vote to the Scottish Libertarian Party in 2016 and, despite their opposing the OBFA, they have much in common with Wings’ more moderate, centrist worldview. Why not engage with them and see if common ground is possible?
My concern at this stage however, is whether the SNP are indeed intent on letting the mandate expire.
Whether this happens or not it will have wound up and worried quite a few of the Unionist list incumbents who do have cause to worry. Might even be worrying Patrick Harvie and give him cause for thought next time he supports the Unionists and their ridiculous scrapping of the OBFA.
Nice to see prof John Robertson recognising the potential of this, that is key to the whole proposal. The quality of candidates must be along the same lines as the good Prof. I can think of a few ex TV and radio personalities, a good number of Indy bloggers and others that will be trusted by the Yes movement.
This will scare the life out of Unionists.
They get their seats from the list, so this has the potential to hit them hard.
An SNP constituency vote of 45%+ and a Wings party of say 20% on the List would spell disaster for the Unionists and chuck the Greens out of power as a Brucie Bonus.
Legerwood at 6.19
Yes .You are correct. Sorry. But they have stood in very few and there is no requirement for any party to stand FPTP if it wants to stand on the list.
SNP
Wings
Greens
Since there is no such thing what about the scottish labour party and take keir hardie’s first policiesa
I posted in one of my late-night-canny-sleep comments about dhondt some months ago
– you really need to play with it yourself to see how bad it is
the only rational thing to do would be to give the SNP second votes to another indy supporting party
at the time, this meant – the GREENS, something which triggers my gag reflex
a YES-WING list party would suit the bill
seeing Labour and Tories lose their undeserved seats would be delicious
you can, if you do it right, end up with an incredible 80-90 MSPs at holyrood for indy supporting parties
I think 2021 seems distant and some decisive move has to be made before then, but – time moves fast, at least have it ready in the mind
@Chris Downie, 7.45pm
The Scottish Libertarians are a bunch of fruitcakes.
This is what they have to say about the SNP leadership:
“The leadership of the SNP are a greater threat to my liberties and more diabolical ("Tractor" - Ed)s to their people and country than those who signed the act of Union in 1707”
All because the SNP quite sensibly want to be in the EU.
……………just a unionist diversionary tactic ably assisted by WOS.
I take it the Rev isn’t following up on the Dugdale debacle? So money is no object?
No more crowdfunding thanks.
Now I am doing the diversionary tactic. It’s dead easy.
Now what about independence v Brexit?
No policies other than positive support for Independence necessary.
That’s all the Brexit party had and it won them the EU elections and put a spanner in the works of both Labour and Tory parties.
George and others wont scare the pants of the unionists its the SNP who will hit back and hit back hard .Its already started .
And Kenny MacAskill saying Nicola despite her rhetoric is not prepared and has no plan for an Indy campaign will get it as well .
Can see only one problem, the yoons might not like it
@ Legerwood: “self-indulgent” by the Rev? Perhaps you don’t know that the Rev has suffered a great deal in the cause of regaining Scotland’s freedom?
He was under scrutiny of the Met Police for months as they held all his computers. He was defamed by Kezia Dugdale in a national paper and in Holyrood. He is slagged off continually by every MSM commenter.
I couldn’t bear for one minute what the Rev has to, let alone produce the work he does to expose the truth amongst the political and media lies.
So, no, I don’t agree that the Rev is being self-indulgent. I think he is looking for a much-needed way of strengthening the visible measure of support in the Scottish Parliament. Arithmetically his plan makes sense. It would make it easier to counter the lies about “no support for Scotland to be a normal country”.
Against that is the field day that the MSM will have talking about a “Yes split”. But that could be dealt with by a “Better Together”-type alliance, of course.
Would be my 2nd prefence on list vote.No other polcy needed. The feet to the fire party. 🙂
*policy
Yep, I’d vote for it. But, jeez, let’s not be in a position where we’re having to vote in another devolved parliament into Holyrood.
If Wings does stand a “Wings Scotland list for Independence” – WSLI, would the name “WSLI” only be printed on the List section and NOT on the Constit. vote part of the ballot paper.
That way no one can waste a vote by mistakenly placing their X in the wrong section.
Otherwise I’m all for giving it a go.
I’ve never voted in a Holyrood election so don’t know how the ballot paper make-up is like.
Excellent use of brainpower Mr Campbell. Only thing is we have some really, really good SNP List MSPs right now where a sitting non-SNP FPTP MSP has a sure-fire personal grip of the constituency. YesIndependenceParty managers must protect these sitting SNP List MSPs.
Perhaps some reading here should do a spot of revision?
link to wingsoverscotland.com
There is NO requirement for any party to put up candidates for the constituency vote.
A party (or individual) can put up candidates for ONLY the regional vote, where you are voting for a party, not individuals on that party’s regional list.
Please stop referring to “list”, “first vote”, “second vote” and so on.
One vote is to elect a constituency MSP by ‘first past the post’; the other vote is to elect regional MSPs, by voting for a party, using the method explained in the above link.
Brilliant. The branding and and naming is crucial however, any proposed party should not be hung up on personalities or a single political view point. If it were a cross representative Independence party think of the possibilities. If enough convicted Independence supporters could be persuaded to put their names forward for list votes the options are endless. Standing as candidates you should be able to have any flavour of political viewpoints. I am a previous labour supporter from the time when Labour had some socialist credentials. I am now an SNP member but I’m not entirely happy with their seeming slide into a comfortable establishment position so I don’t see them as being the ruling party forever post-independence. Other Labour, LibDem or even some Tory leaning folks who are not happy with the way the UK is running Scotland at the moment could be persuaded to go for this as long as the perceived purpose in supporting this party is primarily Independence from the failed Westminster state. I have always wanted Independence to be the first objective and once that was achieved for the majority to decide on their future with a fully accountable government whether it be in or out of the EU or whatever flavour of social society is democratically agreed.
It’s late in the day, but I think Stu’s idea is an inspiration which will galvanise and energise the Independence movement. And motivate the SNP leadership to up their game. No bad thing, after so long in unopposed power.
Do it!
Do it now! as Arnie said in Predator.
Well maybe not now.
But when maximum damage to the cancer that are the british political parties in Scotland can be wrought.
I recon that Stewart and Alex Salmond cooked this up in a pre or post discussion before-or-after their T.V. T all Show,
But what we don’t know, is the reasoning behind it, bearing in mind that they are two sharp cookies.
Iain 2, I agree
The only problem with the idea is the yoons won’t like it
@ Legerwood says at 6:57 pm … ”Petra – ”This is ‘defeat from the jaws of victory’ stuff. It is a self-indulgent distraction at a time when the stars are aligning in our favour.”
Exactly Legerwood, another case of the Scots shooting themselves in the foot. I also can’t understand why this has been announced right now.
As Bert says (6:38 pm) .. ”Sadly this will just play into the unionists hands. At a time where they are imploding left, right and centre along comes this story which will be gleefully seized upon to remove the unionist dysfunction from the nations media. And lo, it came to pass. You’ve made headline news across Scotland removing the rolling trainwreck that is unionist political parties from the papers and TV….
”I find the timing of this to be a little unfortunate coming as it does a few short days after a poll gives independence a 52% – 48% lead for the first time since the referendum 5 years ago.”..
To Brian doonthetoon your post of 8.57
Agreed
The most important part of this two votes arrangement though is how they calculate the votes cast for the regional MSP , it’s done in such a weird way that it is quite undemocratic and that is why we have so many MSP,s in Holyrood that people have never heard of and to think that these so called List MP,s are elected not by the people of Scotland but by the leader of their political party is evidence that democracy is not applied.
Cubby @ 19:13,
I tend to agree, a cute idea though it is. Now is not the time (to coin a phrase), since our old friends in the media are already spinning it as an anti-SNP “indy split” as an opportune distraction from the BritNat confusion and disunity. That was the takeaway of my missus until I explained the background. She got the strategy right away but faithful viewers of BBC North Britain won’t get told, you can be sure of it.
I’m still counting on something more effective happening a sight more quickly. But behind the scenes it must have the BritNats worried, if they have any time from squabbling to notice.
Might also help focus the minds of the SNP a little more on the task at hand and less on unhelpful displacement activity.
The next election coming along though, and likely very soon now, is olde-worlde FPTP “winner takes all” for WM, and that needs maximum effort for the SNP. First things first.
@ Alabaman says at 9:00 pm … ”I recon that Stewart and Alex Salmond cooked this up,”
Eh, get a grip.
I have only one concern.
At the moment thanks to those lists votes the English establishment is keeping the illusion that labour, tories and libdems are somewhat still relevant in Scotland and keeping Holyrood “in check”.
The Rev’s party will quite possible destroy that illusion and kick quite a few of the current parasitic unionists that have been relying on the lists seats for several rounds now. Proof of this is the desperate, hysterical comment of that tory when he found out about the possibility.
In other words, pro Independence parties may have found the way to beat a system designed to perpetuate representation for the unionist parties in Holyrood and that will not doubt send a few shivers down more than one spine and at both sides of the border.
So, what are the odds that the English establishment will attempt to close Holyrood or totally neuter it when it realises it has lost all control over it?
You have my list vote. I wouldn’t vote for the Green Party again after they voted to repeal the Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act.
John Robertson indicated above that he would be wiling to stand. Paul Kavanagh, Lesley Riddoch and Gordon Ross would be excellent additions.
Any more suggestions?
I’ll happily vote SNP/YIP.
Bert@6.38.
Fine post. In more normal times, when the stakes were a fraction of what they are now, I recall the 2003 Holyrood intake was descibed as the rainbow parliament.
It included SSP and Green MSPs alomg with a smattering of independents, which led to a general consensus that such a diverse make up was a good thing.
But these are not normal times. There is us, the yes movement, and our imperial masters. And that’s it.
The SNP-Green alliance has delivered the crucial popular and parliamentary mandate which will deliver IndyRef2. Those parties combined won a majority of the popular vote and seats in 2016.
It will also deliver a fast-tracked Referendum Bill within weeks after parliament reconvenes on September 1.
So I have no idea why this idea is being raised now. I suspect it is not unconnected to Kenny McAskill’s anti-Nicola Sturgeon doom-mongering in that indy-friendly organ The “Scotsman” on Thursday.
Whatever. But it has had the entirely predictable effect already of being seized on by a rabid UKOK meeja, driven to utter distraction so far by the resolute unity of the yes side.
And having been thrown a morsel to feast on, they will be hammering away at their keyboards to transform it into a three course banquet by tomorrow.
Crude slogans have been deployed throughout history by unscrupulous, evil people. “Ein volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer”, “long live death!” (look that one up), “take back control”, “now is not the time”.
All were grotesque propaganda of those who would subvert democracy for their own ends – and all were effective to a greater or lesser degree.
No matter how well-intentioned – and I believe Stu’s primary motive is to hold the SNP to its mandate for IndyRef2 – another slogan featuring the words “split” and/or “Yes”/”SNP” will do the rounds for a day or two.
But without oxygen it will die. The moral? Do not give our enemies succour.
The late great Margo Mcdonald won on the list – more than once actually.
Also Denis Canavan who is still highly regarded in YES.
WOS is not as well known as many think.
A small number of well known folk could stand under Yes/independence, but it would need to be thought through by the broader YES movement. Let’s ca canny on this.
I view this as a diversion for downtime. The crisis is going to hit long before the next Holyrood elections. To win our freedom , we need “SOLIDARITY, FOCUS, DISCIPLINE”. See Peter Bell’s post link to peterabell.blog
Given that the UK PM’s staff are not on vacation and there is a talk of a GE right after Brexit, it looks as if the GE is going to come before an Indyref. The SNP need to stand on an Independence ticket at that GE.
The only thing which is certain is that we are going to need a huge print run of the WBB 2.0. Are you ready Rev?
Maria F @ 21:13,
I don’t want to be complacent, but I get a sense from this-and-that happening that the English Establishment is beginning to give up on us as a lost cause. Either through sympathy from the Remainers or through indifference and “sour grapes” from the Leavers.
As has famously been observed, there’s no electoral strategy that can beat 50%+ support. Leastways on a binary referendum vote. If this level of support is sustained, the writing is well-and-truly on the wall.
Both for London and for us.
Aye, be wary of those trying to split the Indy vote.
All Hail the Chief
The ‘All Being’ (master of time/space dimension) and his ‘loyal’ followers.
#ThisIsNotAVictimlessCrime
I’ve always liked this idea – it’s time is nigh!
IF only there already was a ‘second’ list-only pro-independence political party in Scotland…
… such as Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party
I think it might be useful to have a chat about mutual interests.
Regards,
Mark R Whittet (LLB, BA)
Leader
Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party
Mark@SIRP.Scot
@ScotsIndyRef3
Tel 0774 252 9564
link to scotlandsindependencereferendumparty.scot
link to scotlandsindependencereferendumparty.scot
I like this, I’m hoping when some of you have a good think about what’s just happened, you might just see the potential of this particular idea surfacing now rather than later. The Britnats are already frothing about this, they are also as usual completely misrepresenting what was actually said, and that is good, not bad.
Another pack of liars.
Professor John Robertson:- ‘Never mind the quality feel the money’ says trade union for doctors then lies about performance.’
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
……………………………
‘180% increase in warehouse demand suggest underlying strength in Scottish economy.’
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
@ Rick H Johnston.
I think advertising campaign just started, for free.
SNP 953,587 list votes winning them 4 MSP’s.
Tories 524,222 list votes winning them 24 MSP’s
Labour 435,919 list votes winning them 21 MSP’s
Those figures speak for themselves and show the potential for a pro Independence party standing solely for Regional votes to do a lot of damage to the Britnat parties.
A good idea by the sound of it, but it would need to be carefully managed, in terms of PR. The yoons will almost certainly spin it in the manner they already have, i.e. an attack on the SNP, and paint the WOS party as representing despicable nationalism. They will then tie the despicable nature of the WOS party to the SNP and the indy cause. You should all understand yoons by now, they are as rational as a field full of cattle that have been grazing on magic mushrooms.
What I want to know is, is despicable nationalism anything like contemporary English/British nationalism, i.e. authoritarian and xenophobic?
So its gonna be Wings, SNP, Green for list vote? That wiil work.
I’m up for this project….where do I sign up.
Just change to FPTP.
It might produce mavericks. Unless they support the SNP manifesto.
A lot of the Independents are not helpful.
It would be good if Alex Salmond was involved, Ideal solution,
The D’hond’t Is rubbish. The 3rd rate losers win.
I’m a habitual SNP in the constituency and Greens on the List voter for at least the last 3 Holyrood elections and possibly 4. That the Greens are Yes sweetens the choice but my main reason has always been that as a scientist I am, of course, utterly convinced of the reality of AGW and the ecological holocaust and the Greens are the only party absolutely committed to addressing those. The SNP would still I suspect be subject to favouring business over the environment at times.
Last Holyrood election I tried hard to persuade everyone including on ScotGoesPop* that voting Green on the List was entirely sensible for the reasons you put out Rev. It worked well enough that the Greens got enough extra seats to ensure a Yes majority.
I for one would not change my vote for a Wings party on that basis, I can already vote Green and do not consider them to be a fringe party. Oh yeah, they’re VERY anti nukes and I’m a Scottish CND member.
*James Kelly outed himself as such an SNP FanBoi that he was prepared to deny mathematical reality in the service of it. This severely dented my faith in him as a psephologist. If he was prepared to do that, what else is he prepared to massage? I therefore no longer hang out there.
Omg Gordon Brown dug up BBC from his corpse to yet again save the Union according to Sunday Press
I see there has been an intervenshion; the clanking chains and swivelling jaw has spake, without excessive use of punctuation marks or, seemingly, any self awareness. The SNP is, we are told, ‘peddling what it claims is a progressive, pro-European Scottish nationalism that must break free from Johnson’s reactionary, anti-European and anti-Scottish English nationalism’, which sounds about right to me. Then the browntosaurus tell us, evidence free, that ‘ separatism ignores the hundreds of thousands of jobs at risk of going too.’ Hmm, and the risk of not becoming a normal independent country has been taken into account? Probably not. Meanwhile, the party of fellow prehistoric beasts is trying to return to its natural habitat of the primordial alluvial deposits.
Fergus Green at 9.25
This is the sort of idea I was punting about a year ago to general disinterst and even ridicule. It is a step towards thinking seriously of how we deal with the peculiarities and drawbacks of the list system.
Hoe do we vet and select candidates. We need to avoid the “extreme” and “wild card” nutters or we will look like the Unionist Parties..
Muscleguy
This isn’t meant as a personal attack, but it looks like you’re fall into the trap of rationalising the SNP primarily as a party of good governance. I know which side you are on, but it is easty to forget the SNP has one purpose, to deliver independence. What happens after that will need to be determined through democracy, hopefully from within Scotland, and for Scotland and the wider world’s benefit.
P.S. I’m not a member so a member may wish to correct me.
Wings list.
Non independce policy suggestions?
Trans rights. Transitioning, recognise new gender. If you’ve had your knob chopped off, and want to be called female, go for it, no one sane really cares. Not transitioning, call yourself whatever you want, but you are still whatever you were legally, other than that no one really cares.
90 minute bigots – punish the clubs and their governing body. They’ll take it seriously from the first old firm game where spectators and TV cameras/radio commentary not allowed. I mean ffs, have they never heard of individual tickets with names printed on them, ID and CCTV?!?!?!?
Land reform – whatever the Green party say, just do it ffs.
Sex work – decriminalize if independent. The world has moved on and internet advertizing and airbnb mean its no one’s business but the participants.
Orange Walks – as long as its on a disused industrial estate and no alchohol or under 18s attend, no one cares. Go hate all you want but the rest of us are praying for heavy rain.
Voter registration – legal duty for councils, schools/colleges and NHS to do an electoral register check on every contact (or annually) and offer a VOLUNTARY electoral registration form and assistance with completing it if needed. Declaration of sole residence required and for those with more than one, proof of habitual residence and tax registration at one of them. Postal/proxy votes require cause e.g. medical certificate, form completed by employer (taxed in Scotland) etc.
Thats six to get going.
Id be up for this. Im an SNP memberof 20 yrs but old labour traditional working class . A bit socialy conservative and more focused on economic growth than transgender rights and see our wee princesse as maybe a bit too pre occupied on reaching the front page of the Guardian and her MPS on BBC Question Time . She’s a bit naive on the seductive power of the UK state. Some ( not all) MPS enjoying the life in Westminster and fantasising of being the esteemed and right hounarable Lord of Brigadoon Speaker of the House of Commons.
Not a chance. Don’t do it. You will be destroyed. You are just about tolerated currently as a “useful advocate”.
Go after their positions, jobs, and finances at your peril.
The (S)o-called (N)ationalist (P)arty is now just a machine.
Be careful
@John Kirkwood
It’s the National party not the Nationalist party. You’re sounding awfie like a Britnat.
Conceptually a second real pro Indy party is a fantastic idea but not under the Wings brand. The MSM would have a field day.
Leave it to the Yes Movement to get their act together but make sure that they avoid having those that create division to further their own egos standing. We all know who they are.
I was in my local boozer today,
shaven,wearing a light blue Fred Perry and a pair of adidas samba,
when the barmaid said,
“if you put your name down on the regional/list vote in the next Holyrood election ,maybe under the Wings party,i would definitely vote for you ,
i did vote for the Lib Dems before but they seem to be all deranged lunatics”,
true story.
Stu I’m with you on this cant see it failing and as for those who say it will split the vote simply cant see how if you’re party is standing on list only also same goes for candidates running down SNP candidates, just don’t see that happening but if SNP were to run down wings then yes gloves would come off and hell mend them. Scotland has been trying for 300 years bring it on.
Stu I’m with you on this, don’t see it failing and as for those who say it will split the vote not if you’re party is standing on list only also same goes for candidates running down SNP candidates, but if SNP were to run down wings then yes gloves would come off and hell mend them. Scotland has been trying for 300 years bring it on.
‘shaven,wearing a light blue Fred Perry and a pair of adidas samba,’
She must’ve been impressed. What was it you shaved?
@Thepnr says:
It’s the National party not the Nationalist party. You’re sounding awfie like a Britnat.
Nope. I am a Nationalist noting our supposedly Nationalist party is now a political machine freakshow. P.S. Over 30 years ago I was with – among others – Gordon Wilson and Robbie the Pict on TV arguing our case.
Had a wee swatch at the WOS archives there, and it goes all the way back to 2010. For this month, nine years ago, there was one post by Stu. That one post received one comment.
Check for yourself:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Can’t even remember when I first posted comments but it would’ve been late 2012 and even then there were times when lengthy posts by Stu received very few comments.
And here we are now, having a serious discussion about whether or not WOS should field candidates for possible election to the Scottish Parliament.
Aw youse naysayers, nit-pickers and doom-merchants can just get tae.
I’m in.
😉
Hopefully not required but if SNP aint won us a referendum by then it has to be done, whilst it would be nice for somebody to organise under a Yes banner cannot see that happening, so only one man who I believe has the organisational skills , the backup and contacts to do it is you Stu so go for it, but I really do hope it will not be necessary.
‘mon the self-improves, ‘there’s nothing quite like a shorn scrotum. It’s breathtaking, really. I suggest you try it yourself’.
I hope I’ve not upset anyone with the dastardliness of that suggestion. 😉
Please do it.
This is a great move , I am with the idea that it’s a yes movement ,including the dug etc.
Only focused on list candidates. I expect that there may be some changes made to the Scotland act to resolve this anomaly and prevent this from happening. The British Govt under the Brexit crew will definitely try. I can see a future where everything Is on the table from Boris and his ilk.
Scotland may have to declare UDI, SNP keep rejecting it, but it may be the only choice left in an Brexit Britain.
John Kirkwood
Ironically, Nationalist are the wrong sort of nationalists, from every sort of perspective.
The idea of maximising a return from this bonkers 2-vote electoral guddle is very attractive, I don’t deny it. If even the
anoraksenthusiasts on here don’t properly understand how it operates, what hope for ordinary folk? The AMS list system clearly benefits a pluralist BritNat opposition, since (with all due respect) the Greens just don’t have the necessary traction (yet, anyway).But why are we obsessing about 2021 right now, when there are other more pressing challenges looming? I don’t want to be madly over-optimistic, but I get a sense from this-and-that happening of late that the English Establishment is actually begining to give up on us as a lost cause. Either through sympathy from the Remainers or through indifference and “sour grapes” from the Leavers. An opportunity just waiting to be taken.
As Curtice has famously said, there’s no possible electoral strategy that can beat 50%+ support. Not in a UKGE, and leastways of all in a binary referendum vote. If this level of support for indy is sustained, the writing is well-and-truly on the wall, and it’s for a lot sooner tham 2021.
For the BritNat circus and for us.
Oh lord the BBC are going to have to interview you on a regular basis.
They must be spinning like tops.
The press are going to have to talk about you. Ok so it will all be bad but that figure of two thirds of Yes voters having heard of Wings is going to go up to one hundred percent.
Throw in another wee blue book and how can a normal self governing Scotland not become a reality.
The idea of maximising a return from this bonkers 2-vote electoral guddle is very attractive, I don’t deny it. If even the anoraks enthusiasts on here don’t properly understand how it operates, what hope for ordinary folk? The AMS list system clearly benefits a pluralist BritNat opposition, since (with all due respect) the Greens just don’t have the necessary traction (yet, anyway).
But why are we obsessing about 2021 right now, when there are other more pressing challenges looming? I don’t want to be madly over-optimistic, but I get a sense from this-and-that happening of late that the English Establishment is actually begining to give up on us as a lost cause. Either through sympathy from the Remainers or through indifference and “sour g.r.a.p.e.s” from the Leavers. An opportunity just ready for the taking.
As Curtice has famously said, there’s no possible electoral strategy that can beat 50%+ support. Not in a UKGE, and leastways of all in a binary referendum vote. If this level of support for indy is sustained, the writing is well-and-truly on the wall, and it’s for a lot sooner than 2021.
For the BritNat circus and for us.
So people are willing to throw Scotland’s chances for freedom away for the sake of pandering to someone’s ego?
You are gambling on someone who took a completely unnecessary gamble to make a point against a labour airhead who in the view of the law won. And it was people’s money to fund this site who will pay Ms D’s costs! Good money after bad!
Up to now the site has provided many like me enhanced insight into the bias and misinformation of the bbc, press and unionist parties, for that it has my significant and heart felt gratitude!
So sad it has come to this, I’ve been posting here for six years, but setting up a party to fight against the SNP is complete nonsense, and anyone who buys into it, is deluded!
At this point in time for this to happen is utter stupidity and only an idiot would buy in to it!
Unionists must be rubbing their hands it’s the only rest-bite they have had in months for the chaos they are putting Scotland’s way, then they have an ego that diverts attention and undermines the issue they most dislike, it makes you wonder?????
I can’t see the problem with this strategy. The Yoon Media will smear anyone associated with this project. As they do with anyone they perceive as important to independence. It’s nothing new.
As long as there’s a way to achieve this – and avoid stepping on SNP/Green list candidates, this will, I think, not only get rid of a lot of the dead wood in Holyrood, but replace it with something pro-indy.
The big buzz this week is about the SNP needing some sort of super-majority. If the SNP are backed in Holyrood by MSPs as focused on independence as The Brexit Company are on economic self-immolation, it’ll be harder to spin that as a minority for independence.
And mibby it’ll be easier to demonstrate that it’s not just That Nicola Sturgeon who wants independence – it’s all sorts of others who clearly aren’t the SNP.
Just a thought but you might need to stop advertising your bear hunt walks now Stu. Stay safe. ‘They’ cannot allow the break up of the U.K. to happen.
Either that or they’ll change the electoral rules so you can’t do it.
CameronB Brodie says:
John Kirkwood
Ironically, Nationalist are the wrong sort of nationalists, from every sort of perspective
I didn’t think we were commenting here to attack each other but OK, here goes..
Do you know what irony is? Do you know English? Your comment makes no reasonable point and even less sense. Are you a ‘bot?
Calum MacKay
six years you say……then youve no been paying attention.
this is for the second (largely wasted under PR) list vote, only.
sober up man and think!
I’d vote for you Prof…even if ye stood in a puddle 🙂
Calum McKay
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, which I can appreciate to an extent, though I’m not prepared to make a judgement call on the motives of “Your Majesty”. I’m not convinced yet, but I think it better to try and fail, rather than not try at all. Of course, the rational position is to explore all options. Also, there are other opinions, though they tend to be less rational.
John Kirkwood
What’s your level of schooling, if that’s not a personal question?
Kenny Farquharson – what a diddy. Care to print that in the Times. Yours Sincerely from a non slavish Wings Follower.
The idea has long had potential. Whether it’s implemented or not, even just floating the concept puts the pressure on various factions which should keep them on their toes.
Plus the wider ensuing discussions might help further enlighten more of the electorate to the flawed democratic processes we currently use to form our governments that ultimately shape our society and lives.
In my view a voting system is not fit for purpose if by design it effectively protects and allows individual politicians to remain in office election after election without giving the electorate the opportunity to remove them should they wish.
Scottish politics is effectively frozen until the constitutional issue is resolved. The unionist parties have fought every election since 2014 with the same anti-Indy mantra. UK GEs, Scottish Parliament, Council, and EU elections, it doesn’t make any difference, they are consistent in utlising that message.
You can see they tactically vote, or don’t properly contest particular seats to optimise results that suit the union. They use Vote Till You Boak from their perspective in STV Council Elections.
It’s well past time Indy minded folk wised up to this basic fact, put aside their differences, and unified to achieve our common objective.
We’ll only get the opportunity to have a properly functioning intelligent, progressive and consensual Scottish Parliament that we directly elect to govern us after we shake free from the current dullard ridden, regressive and adversarial UK setup.
Even the simple possibility of this prospect arising in 2021 might help to ensure that the SNP do indeed, as promised, use their mandate to hold Indyref2 within the lifetime of the present Holyrood parliament.
I don’t know if such a ‘threat’ is necessary: hopefully, it is not. But just in case it is, this will keep them on their toes, providing encouragement for them to get on with it.
Those SNP MSP’s who are there through the list, and others who see the list as their safety net in case they lose their FPTP seats, will be taking note. They might calculate that their only way to avoid a viable pro-Indy alternative cutting short their parliamentary careers in 2021 will be through holding Indyref2 before then, and winning independence.
Any temptations they may have been having to prevaricate, postponing Indyref2 till after the 2021 Holyrood elections (the outcome of which is not predictable), will thus be overcome.
So, even if Stuart Campbell’s idea is still only half thought out, and even if it eventually comes to nothing, the fact that is there is already a gain. Just the very threat of such a prospect might help to concentrate some minds.
I am not saying that there are SNP people in high places who think they can ignore the wider Yes movement. There my or may not be. But if there are, the idea that has been mooted here might well force them to ‘think again’.
I am sure most people in the SNP are fully aware that the SNP cannot gain independence alone, without the wider Yes movement, or without having to take that wider movement seriously. If there are any SNP people who ignore this, they certainly do so at their peril.
I suppose the new grouping or Party which Stuart is proposing could call itself ‘Wings for Yes’. Although it might not be an acceptable name, some might even like to think of it as ‘the Margo MacDonald Party’ ….
Dan at 12.13, I did not see your comment before posting mine 4 minutes later. We seem to have been thinking some similar or related thoughts … If I had seen yours, I wouldn’t have bothered posting mine – yours is wider, and says it better. If a list system makes the result more accurate, so that few votes are spoiled, that is good. But there should be a strict limit on the number of times anyone can sit as a List MP; it should not provide jobs for life for Party-hack morons. Thanks.