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Wings Over Scotland

The big idea

Posted on August 13, 2019 by

Crazy stuff happens when we have a thought.

Buckle in for a bumpy ride if you don’t like pictures of my ugly mug.

[EDIT: updated with more coverage]

The general reaction of the Scottish media and political sphere was to fall over itself in a rush to find people to immediately rubbish the notion of a Wings list party, which rather suggested to us that it must be a good idea.

The plan to appeal to moderate, mainstream voters was unsurprisingly attacked bitterly by both the most extreme left-wing party at Holyrood and the most extreme right-wing party at Holyrood:

The shriekingly intolerant “woke” end of the Yes movement also went into a complete meltdown, including a demented editorial on a little-read blog which – ironically – had enthusiastically and aggressively advocated voting for fringe far-left parties on the list at the 2016 Holyrood election, insisting that “unity in diversity is a much stronger base for transformative action than one-dimensional party politics”.

(The concept of “diversity” in the Yes movement there presumably being used in its lesser-known sense of “exclusively views that agree with mine, with all others being intolerable outrages against basic human decency”.)

Alert readers may recall that RISE, the party being referred to in that article, gathered just 0.5% of the list vote in the subsequent election, less than a tenth of what it would have required to win even one seat. Its best result was getting 2,454 votes in Glasgow, one more than the “A Better Britain – Unionist Party” which has never been heard of before or since.

(The minimum vote required to win a seat in the region was 14,766.)

But anyway.

The events of the last few days have revealed an alarming lack of knowledge of how the Scottish Parliament’s electoral system works even among relatively politically-engaged members of the public, so it’d probably be useful to quickly lay out a few basics here.

1. Holyrood votes are NOT ranked by preference and are NOT transferable.

You have two votes – one for a constituency MSP to represent your immediate local area, usually a part of a town or city, eg Glasgow Provan. (We’ll call this the “local” vote to avoid having to type the word “constituency” over and over again)

You also have one vote to elect multiple regional MSPs for your general area, eg Mid Scotland And Fife. There are eight such electoral regions in Scotland, each returning seven MSPs.

2. The simplest explanation of Holyrood’s electoral system is that it’s designed to ensure that each party’s total representation – local and regional MSPs combined – is equal to its proportional share of the REGIONAL vote alone.

(In practice this is rarely achieved precisely, but it gets pretty close. In 2016, for example, Scottish Labour got 19% of the regional vote and ended up with 19% of total seats. The Tories got 23% of the regional vote and 24% of total seats.)

On the most recent polls, the total pro-independence regional vote is sitting (as in fact it has been for the last two years) at around 45%, which if the system works as designed would mean Unionist parties having a majority of seats and any vote on a second independence referendum being defeated.

2. The hypothetical Wings party would NOT contest any local seats, only the regional vote. So you’d vote for your local candidate with your local vote (in our Glasgow Provan example the sitting MSP is the excellent Ivan McKee of the SNP), and for the Wings Party with your regional vote.

3. Why? Because in Glasgow, and also in most other Scottish regions, you’d be roughly 10 times more likely to get a regional Wings Party MSP than a regional SNP one from the same number of votes. That’s because the SNP currently hold all nine of the local seats in the Glasgow region.

What that means is that under the Holyrood electoral system the SNP’s regional vote gets divided by 10 (or to be precise, their number of seats in the region plus one) before the counting to elect regional MSPs begins.

So even though the SNP won the actual regional vote in 2016 by miles:

…the EFFECTIVE vote was actually this, with the SNP in fourth place:

Because their nine local seats meant the SNP’s regional vote got divided by 10. Which meant that the seven regional seats were allocated like this:

SEAT 1: Labour with 59,151 votes
SEAT 2: Labour with 29,575 votes (59,151/2)
SEAT 3: Tories with 29,533 votes
SEAT 4: Greens with 23,398 votes
SEAT 5: Labour with 19,717 votes (59,151/3)
SEAT 6: Labour with 14,788 votes (59,151/4)
SEAT 7: Tories with 14,766 votes (29,533/2)

The SNP’s adjusted vote of 11,110 was 3,656 short of the Seat 7 winning total, which means the SNP would have needed an EXTRA 36,569 votes (33% more than they actually got) just to get a single regional seat.

(Because they’d then have had 147,670 and dividing that by 10 would have given them 14,767 and let them pip the Tories to the final seat by one vote.)

So the final outcome of the 2016 election in the Glasgow region was this:

SNP: 9 seats (all local)
Labour: 4 seats (all regional)
Tories: 2 seats (all regional)
Greens: 1 seat (regional)

That’s a total of 10 pro-indy MSPs and six Unionists.

But if everyone who voted SNP on the regional vote had instead voted for the hypothetical Wings Party, the seats would have been allocated like this:

SEAT 1: Wings Party with 111,101 votes
SEAT 2: Labour with 59,151 votes
SEAT 3: Wings Party with 55,551 votes
SEAT 4: Wings Party with 37,034 votes
SEAT 5: Labour with 29,575 votes
SEAT 6: Tories with 29,533 votes
SEAT 7: Wings Party with 27,775 votes

That’s four pro-indy MSPs in the region instead of one. The SNP would still have their nine local MSPs, making an overall total of 13 pro-indy MSPs and just three Unionists, rather than 10 vs 6.

Annie Wells, James Kelly and Pauline McNeill would all have lost their seats (as would Patrick Harvie), replaced by Wings Party candidates.

Multiply that result across eight regions and you’d end up with 24 more pro-indy MSPs and 24 fewer Unionists, for a huge total pro-independence majority of 57 seats, with the new Holyrood comprising 93 pro-indy MSPs vs 36 Unionists.

(The reality wouldn’t be quite that simple due to the specific circumstances of different regions, but the general principle holds.)

And even if only one-third of SNP voters had voted Wings in the region (a more realistic prospect than all of them doing it), the boost to pro-indy numbers in the Holyrood chamber would still be almost as large – the seats would come out at 3 Lab, 2 Wings, 1 Con, 1 Green, or three pro-indy regional MSPs instead of one.

While the Holyrood electoral system isn’t complicated as such, it does take a bit of time to explain, as we’ve just seen. But the short version of all the above is that in every single region of Scotland, a Wings Party vote would effectively count for between five and 10 times as many votes as an SNP one in terms of electing pro-indy regional MSPs.

4. The key difficulty, of course – as this site has pointed out previously – is in persuading SNP voters to make the quite counter-intuitive step of voting for two different parties in the same election. (It’s occasionally been suggested – overly cynically in our view – that the system was designed deliberately to that end.)

In our previous articles we noted, correctly, that SNP voters would normally be highly resistant to giving their regional vote to minor parties like the Greens or RISE or Solidarity, for a whole range of reasons. In the 2016 election, 90% of SNP local voters also voted SNP in the regional vote.

The crucial potential difference this time is we know from polling that SNP voters broadly tend to have pretty favourable feelings towards Wings Over Scotland. If – IF – that were to be translated into votes the tipping point required to actually start winning seats, which RISE etc were always going to fall far short of, would be pretty easily reached.

(For one seat in a region you’d need to get around 1 out of every 7 SNP votes.)

5. But if it didn’t work, could voting for a Wings party damage the pro-indy parties and lose a Yes majority at Holyrood? Well, in an abstract theoretical sense it could do, but in reality the arithmetic is very strongly against that outcome.

The only way it could be a real danger would be if the SNP vote lost a significant number of their local seats and therefore needed to pick more up on the regional lists. Given the shambolic state of Scottish Labour and the Scottish Tories that’s not hugely likely, but some of their majorities are small and nothing is impossible.

So in our Glasgow example, let’s imagine that the SNP lost five of their nine local seats – we’ll say three go to Labour and two to the Tories – and that a third of their regional vote had gone to the Wings Party. We won’t bore you with the full working here, but the outcomes would be these:

SNP KEEPS 100% OF REGIONAL VOTE: 5 SNP, 1 Green, 1 Labour

1/3 OF SNP VOTE TO WINGS: 3 Wings, 2 SNP, 1 Green, 1 Labour 

Result: no change. Both outcomes deliver 6 pro-indy MSPs to one Unionist.

So that’s the theory. Our notional plan isn’t about “splitting” the pro-independence vote, it’s about multiplying it, by a factor of up to 10.

(How much it got multiplied would depend on how many pro-indy voters gave us their regional vote, and also on who won local seats. But current polling suggests that once again the vast bulk of those would go to the SNP, so the likely multiplication factor is at the higher end of the scale.)

Unionists don’t like the plan, for obvious reasons. The Scottish media don’t like the plan, for partly different but equally obvious ones. SNP hyper-loyalists don’t like the plan because they want the SNP to have total power rather than having to work with anyone else, which is a natural enough impulse for politicians (and also would-be politicians) but on the current trajectory will lead to Holyrood’s pro-indy majority being lost in the name of narrow party interest.

And the “radical” woke fringe absolutely hate the plan because they despise Wings far, far more than they despise being in the UK under Tory governments.

To be honest, folks, we can live with that as a list of enemies. And we fervently hope the plan never has to be put into action, because that would mean it was 2021 and the SNP had completely blown both their 2016 mandate and the best chance of winning an independence referendum Scotland will ever have.

But as a Plan B, it looks pretty good to us.

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603 to “The big idea”

  1. Sue Varley


    Thanks for the links at 8:36, and for all your well constructed points on Self-ID. I agree with everything you’ve said. It is because of the Self-ID issue alone that I found it hard to vote SNP in the European election and will not vote Green ever in Scotland till they drop this. At least the SNP have rational invividuals who are fighting this madness.


    I suppose you consider all the women in what are supposed to be women’s prisons who are at risk from violent sexual males being incarcerated along with them to be included in your “minimal of people”?

    Or all the girls and women losing out to men who are now competing in women’s sport because they are not good enough to compete within their own gender?

    Or the women the depraved Janiv is persecuting?

    Or all of us who fear losing any other of our sex-based rights we currently enjoy and are safer because of?

    Get your head out of wherever it is currently lodged and around the concept that this is about more than family changing rooms at swimming pools!

  2. Ken500

    A younger woman just asked what l was doing. I explained Rev Stu had gone all anti trans rights (and SNP?). On the subject of mixed changing rooms. The person replied, ‘what are they on about’. Was just incredulous. They use mixed changing rooms at the Beach leisure facilities yesterday. Mixed female adult. Two male children. One female, No problem. In fact it means mixed groups/families can use the facilities. Families can go in the pool. Other family members can go in the gym. There is more access for people to use the facilities. A woman with two boys can use the facilities. Without worrying about the children being in another changing facilities.

    The Scottish Gov should bring in a Law making it compulsory to shower before going into the pool. More chlorine/chemicals have to be used because people do not shower. Unhygienic.

  3. Dr Jim

    @Silver Darling

    Let me clarify something, because you are agitated and feel strongly about a particular subject, and people you know may be agitated by that same subject does not and never will mean that the population at large even cares, because most times they don’t

    You are confusing your opinion of what you think I think and what actually is, and in your frustration to impress your earnestness upon others and in this instance me, creates and causes you to rise in anxiety and indignation and that’s the very reason why the majority of the population switch off when
    this particular subject crops up

    You and your friends are obviously very seriously concerned over this issue but again the population at large are not and furthermore don’t want to be because it leads to what you just accused me of and people don’t like conflict over issues they feel don’t concern their daily lives, they leave it to governments to resolve because that’s what they feel they pay them for

    My own opinion on the subject is this, when the government of the day comes to a conclusion and decides on a course and makes it so, if I don’t agree with it then I’ll complain, but no matter what the government decides is the course they will pursue on this issue most people only deal with what’s in front of them on a personal basis

    Mr and Mrs average aren’t activists and don’t want to be but being an aggressive activist always, always has the opposite effect to the activists desired outcome

    My point in my earlier post was meant to illustrate that if young people are talking about things lecturers know it and hear about it, in this instance my aquaintance isn’t hearing anything

    In my own family, female dominated by numbers, only my disabled granddaughter has mentioned it for all the obvious reasons and I and others in our family allayed her concerns by impressing the point that no one, no matter how they presented themselves in any public areas ie toilets would ever be allowed to be within twenty feet of her let alone being in a toilet at all, because no matter what the end result of this may be I will break the law if I believe it to be wrong to protect my granddaughter and her personal space

    That is and will be my solution, if the law is wrong when enough people break it that law changes, until then I wait just like everybody else in the hope that the lawmakers decide a compromise that usually fits most but never all

    At this moment the world is changing faster than politicians (who are only people like us) can keep up and they’re not out to get us over this issue they’re trying to find ways to do the right thing, it’s not in politicians interests to do what we don’t want in relation to personal issues, they want to do what we do want because they want us to vote for them and because they have family too, they’re not monsters

  4. Patrick Roden

    @Thepnr You said:

    “Chasing rainbows is usually a waste of time and energy, so why bother demanding an explanation from Labour when it’s far more likely that it has nothing to do with them and they’ll just laugh.”

    You need to calm down a bit, I did not demand anything from Labour, and was not interested in the companies you listed, however I am interested in the fact (as I’m sure others are) that there are two companies listed with the name of Labour included in their names.

    You will probably already know that you can’t just register a company in a name that has already been in use for some time, so trying to register these names isn’t as easy as some people may think.

    The fact that someone has registered all these companies using the name of an elderly woman as a director, who then always resigns her directorship a few days later, is also surely cause for concern for anyone.

    If the companies have got nothing to do with Labour and or Richard Leonard, it would be them that will be complaining to companies house for allowing a registration of these two companies (labour related) that are clearly trying to use the good name of labour (stop sniggering at the back) for what is perhaps ‘suspicious’ activities.

  5. starlaw

    Who so desperately wants mixed changing rooms and toilets anyway.

  6. Ken500

    More people would watch and become involved in women’s sport with transgenders. It would be more exciting and make more money. Some sportspersons are just protecting their lucre market. £Million for an Olympic medal. £Millionaires.

    More men than women get attacked violently. 4 times more. The offender are usually other men. Women are being charged illegally under the new domestic offence abuse Laws which cannot be dropped. More women convicted.

    There are too many women and men in prison. Many (50%?) on the spectrum. An obvious scandal. No diversity in the community. Not enough information or education. People being put in prison. Instead of proper rehab drug and drink facilities. Prison costs a fortune. Some council wanted to put homeless people in prison. People often with addition or social and mental health problems.

    Nurse practitioners, who drink wine every night. Keeping people on methadone for far too long. It was taken to Local authorities under social care. Instead of being kept under SNHS care. Doctors could refer patients to proper total abstinence, one chance rehab counselling. The facilities are now closing because of lack of funding. Even for private and insurance patients. It is becoming too expensive without some additional public funding. People’s lives are wasted. People die.

    Doctor would not prescribe methadone because all the drug deaths were linked to people taking methadone and then other substances. Care in the community prison. Anyone with drug/drink problems or their friends and families should get in touch with AA/NA. They can find help.

  7. Ken500

    They are already there.

  8. Mac



    Could be the very word!! 🙂

  9. Robert J. Sutherland

    Heart of Galloway @ 09:27,

    You speak for me there too.

    If there’s a complete WM guddle now, who knows what it will be like after the likely upcoming UKGE?

  10. Dave McEwan Hill

    Re Stu interesting proposition for a YES alliance for the next Scottish parliament election can we all calm down a bit.
    At the moment we are going for an independence referendum next year – or earlier, if circumstances demand that. We will be contesting that as a YES alliance –as we did the last time.

    If we lose that I’m off.

    If we don’t go for one I’m off.

    In either of those circumstances the next Scottish Parliament Election will be of no interest to me.
    There is only one objective we should be concentrating on at the moment. A referendum.

  11. Dr Jim

    Governments in the west in their attempts to be liberal in all things to all people probably regret the moment they collectively decided that individual groups were worth the vote grabbing exercises they indulged themselves in because there are turning out to be too many groupings demanding too much attention now

    I bet Jacob Reese Mogg has a solution

  12. Mac

    ‘One Nation’ – A direct attack on Scotland’

    Scotland is in trouble. Politically, culturally, economically and as a distinct Nation.

    The enemy are preparing to launch the biggest invasion yet. They have their strategy decided. They have amassed troops, resources, and are planning fierce attacks. Meanwhile Scotland are not ready, and are, as always, on the back foot.

    History has taught us that the battle ground is strategically important. And yet, we will be drawn to fight Westminster on the Battlefield of their choosing. Further, we will be fighting an unscrupulous enemy who are seeking a massacre, a total annihilation of Scotland’s democracy and self-determination. Westminster wants a ‘North Britain’, a Scotland re-subjugated and to force English rule on Scotland.

    Dramatic eh? Completely bonkers in this day and age? Yep, I have my Aldi Foil Millenary on again. But I am not sure I am completely crazy.

    I was searching to see what ‘One Nation’ meant and to try to understand the objectives of Alistair Jack in his new role as Secretary of State for Scotland.

    I am not going to repeat all the background or profile information on Alistair Jack. You can find everything here:

    His political website

    His Business Success

    Background Info on Wiki

    Marching with the Queen’s Bodyguard for Scotland, the Royal Company of Arseholes

    Suffice to say; hugely privileged background, boarding school, landowner, active Tory, and loves fishing and hunting. His voting record is pretty much the ‘Tory Norm’, but here is how he voted on the Constitutional Reform, both for Scotland and Wales.

    Constitution Reform

    Now, I am already starting to dislike this guy intensely. He is clearly a member of the establishment that seeks to keep Scotland subjugated and under control of England.

    Here is what he said after his appointment as Secretary of State for Scotland.

    “We need to leave the EU in a way which works for Scotland and the whole of the UK. We can, and will, leave the EU, and in doing so open up new opportunities for Scottish businesses.

    “We need to continue to defend the Union against those who would seek to tear it apart. In 2014, the people of Scotland voted to remain part of a strong United Kingdom. We will stand up for their decision against those who would try to impose unwanted and divisive constitutional change.

    “At the same time, we need to work with the Scottish Government in boosting Scotland’s economy, which continues to lag behind that of the rest of the UK, in large part due to the Scottish Government’s anti-business and high tax ideology.

    The UK Government will continue to invest across Scotland, including through city and growth deals and supporting our oil and gas industry.

    “There are challenges ahead of us, but I am confident that we will meet them successfully, building a path to a more prosperous country.”

    These words confirm that I am right so far. According to Jack, we need to leave the EU, despite Scotland voting to remain? He claims leaving the EU can work for Scotland and it will open up new opportunities for Scottish businesses. He doesn’t mention that Scotland has pretty much been ignored so far, and he doesn’t tell us what all these opportunities are, nor try to bring balance by accepting there will be many Scottish businesses negatively impacted by Brexit.

    He promises to work with the Scottish Government as it lags behind the UK due to the Scottish Government’s incompetence on Industry and Tax. The audacity of the man. If Scotland lags behind anywhere, it’s due to Westminster and Tory hegemony.

    And of course, he says the UK Government will invest in Scotland separately. Now how is this in anyway acceptable? It is designed to cut across Scottish Government Strategy and initiatives, no doubt utilising Scottish Taxpayers funds, and monies withheld from Scottish Government. All intended to reduce the power of the SNP and Holyrood and build up UK presence.

    And it’s no accident that he mentions UK Government and our Oil and Gas industry in the same sentence to remind Scotland who is in charge. And for sure, he will help make the country more prosperous… the question is, which country?

    And there are plans to swamp Scotland with the Union Flag. What even more? It’s being going on since 2013, they put the Union Flag on everything already.

    The leader of our enemy’s vanguard has arrived.

    Scottish Office of Westminster

    Why the change to Scottish Office? And When?

    Westminster went into overdrive after Indy 2014. They held meetings and committees to try to figure out ways to get the Independence cat back in the bag. This included changes in the Scottish Office in 2014. A kind of rebranding, repositioning and reprovisioning.

    This is truly ‘Westminster in Scotland’. Our colonial masters’ writ large. So not only do we have to contend with the democratic deficit of Westminster, we are obliged to accept a subsidiary government office, where it is obvious to everyone that the intention is to destroy any form of Independence, devolution, self-government and democratic mandates that Scotland has wrested from the grubby paws of the Unionists. They might try to get in our heads and in our purse, but they will will never win our hearts or spirit.

    Meanwhile, what is Scotland doing? We are planning to beg for something that we have both mandate and inalienable democratic right for.

    One Nation Strategy

    Well you can read about it here. But basically, it’s the preservation of the existing order by some sort benevolent, paternalistic management of the proletariate. It originated from Benjamin Disraeli and died with Thatcher. It’s basically a form of good husbandry of the Untermensch.

    One Nation

    Now One Nation is back on the cards, as the current Tory cabinet convienently forget the recent austerity programs and revert to sharing the benefits of their hard work and success with the poor unfortunates that are naturally disinclined to be successful.

    What does One Nation mean? It’s a disgusting philosophy. Deeply patronising and abhorrently faux paternalism. It’s anachronistically and inevitably tied up with Brexit, the Great British Empire and back to the good old days of Blighty. So well remembered by the bigoted Brexiters of the seaside towns in the South.

    One Nation is a direct threat to Scotland. The Westminster government plan to force the Union back together. They are fighting entropy and unscrambling scrambled, eggs. It’s constitutional ‘rayppe’. (And this is not said insensitively. It makes a point that we have not given any consent to what Westminster is doing to us)

    The Tories and Establishment are determined and desperate to get Scotland ‘under control’. This means that they WILL do anything to return to the past. Do not doubt that they will use MI5 and others to ‘counter this threat to the Union’. Do not doubt that they will do things that are immoral and illegal. After all, it’s for your own good.

    ‘One Nation’ is not positive for Scotland. It’s a meme for hegemony. It’s a meme for ‘you- belong-to-us.’ It’s a meme for ‘We are the masters of your destiny.’

    The UK is not One Nation. We are four Nations. We may choose to collaborate and be friendly, but we are not One Nation and we should not accept the Tory false hand of charity handouts, either in UK Government Projects sold as generosity, or MSM articles that promote the myth that Scotland relies on charity from the south.

    Wake up Scotland if you want to survive as a Nation. We are at war with Westminster, the Establishment and the Tories.

  13. Mac

    Ah….. I give up. Maybe the post was too long. Too many links…

    No idea. But wasted too much time already trying to figure out what is wrong.

    I will post it elsewhere.

    Or maybe I could post it in parts until I find the offending portion LOL

  14. Dr Jim

    Michael Gove has been tasked with co-ordinating a *State of Emergency* committee

    We know what that means, will they do it?

  15. Tam the Bam.

    The Rev Campbell @ Twitter feed (approx. 17mins ago)

    “Oy Stu…. I live round the corner from Byres Road and am most definitely NOT guilty of snobbery.”

    # Wings funder / Supporter of potential Wings Party.

    ##…so there!

  16. Fionan

    Breeks, I fully agree with you on the proposals you have put forward to end the brutality associated with the elitist huntin’shootin’ brigade. Quite apart from the maiming and killing they enjoy so much, along with the constant unpleasantness of their gunshot blasts echoing around the hills, testifying to what poor shots they are, the vast areas of countryside they commandeer, using their dirty tricks to prevent the public Right to Roam, can and should be put to better use. These uses should be those which the population of Scotland can benefit from, rather than the absentee and part-time resident landowners and their public school pals, and their handfuls of local cap-tippers and bag carriers.

  17. Cubby

    Corbyn cosying up to the SNP to try and get their support to make him PM in the event of a successful VONC.

    Don’t trust the Britnats. They are proven liars and break their promises – eg the infamous VOW.

  18. Capella

    Good article on Scots language in use on twitter. Linguists are enjoying the field work and humour:

  19. manandboy

    Mac, been there, done that, sympathy etc., you don’t know because you don’t have the list of banned words. Till you do, you are wasting your time. It may ‘come to you’ as it did to me. It’s a learning curve. Not nice to lose a well thought through comment with merit, but, you will get over the loss in a short time. Above all else, keep going.

  20. Mark Fletcher

    As a Wings supporter, I don’t like the way me and the rest of us are now being traduced by opponents and supposed friends.

    Have we suddenly grown horns and a tail? Have we turned into slavering, sloganeering idiots?

    Actually, I’m secretly pleased. I sense increasing panic.

  21. Breastplate

    Ken 500,
    “More people would watch and become involved in women’s sport with transgenders. It would be more exciting and make more money. Some sportspersons are just protecting their lucre market. £Million for an Olympic medal. £Millionaires”.

    I do not believe this to be true, I do not believe this to be likely.

    I’m more inclined to believe that if transgender participation continues in female sports, that it will destroy female sports.
    We are already know that transgenders in women sport carry physical advantages because of their genetic code.
    How long before we watch the women’s final of Wimbledon being competed by transgenders.
    How long before we see something like Mike Tyson in a dress punching fuck out of Nicole Adams.

    It’s all very well living by the credo, live and let live, it’s a good thing but that should also apply to transgenders when we are at the thin end of the wedge when it comes to obliterating female sports.

    Ken, tell me how you would stop transgenders from becoming champions in every single female sport? Or would you even try?

  22. Clootie

    @Ken 500

    Ken you are missing the point badly. Individual cubicles in open areas surrounding a pool or individual cubicles under monitored supervision are NOT mixed changing rooms. They are individual changing areas.

  23. Hamish100

    I see Kevin McKenna supports WoS “Party”.

    I suppose its an escape route for labourites.

    So Rev are you going ahead?

  24. Charles

    Meanwhile, back in reality, your more likely to take just enough votes from the Greens, to deprive them of the seat, and still fall short yourself, making it MORE likely to put a Unionist party in place.
    In the world of Scottish politics, Wings are known, outside the bubble nobody knows who you are.
    In a week of favourable polls, Labour and Tory infighting, the press have been given a lifeline to ‘expose’ a ‘split’ in the YES movement, great timing guys, very savvy. Did it not cross your mind why the BBC and Unionist media suddenly want to speak to you? and when they distort your views you act outraged, writing a piece on your blog asking your readers not to trust the Scottish media? are you serious?
    ‘ but it just an idea at the moment’ – then why speak out loud now if you do not actually know if it is feasible, and feed the Unionist press?
    Sadly, these delusions of grandeur have been increasing, from implying that the 2014 YES vote increased in the final weeks due to the wee blue book,and not because of the ground campaign and the fact people had no option but to pick a side either way, to now seeing Wings as the kingmakers at Holyrood.
    your Ego is blinding you from reality, and your echo chamber is sending you in the wrong direction.

  25. Capella

    Today’s reported incidence of sexual assault of an 11 year old girl in a mixed sex changing room. A price worth paying?

  26. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi ken500.

    “APPEAL: We want to identify and speak to this man after a girl was sexually assaulted at a leisure centre in Stourbridge.”

  27. Brian Doonthetoon


  28. Liz g

    Ken 500
    Do you really think Women are that shallow that this is
    only about getting changed at the swimming or toilets?
    It’s more than that much more…
    It’s who is in the next bed in a hospital.
    Who performs and chaperones intimate procedures.
    Will blood and organ donation be adversely affected?
    Kids in secure units.
    Female staff in prisons and secure units.
    Having to have male staff where there should be only female because of the male bodied inmates.
    And finding it funny as spectator watching female /Trans sport is the least of the voyeurism that concern women…

  29. manandboy

    ‘BETTER NOT TOGETHER’- Scotland’s gain, England’s loss.

    Scotland has been told by England, that ‘Better Together’ is best. Now, the same people are telling Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England, and the EU, that ‘Better Not Together’ is best.

    When ‘Better Not Together’ is best for the EU and the UK, then the same conclusion must apply to the Union between Scotland and England.

    But the same people say, ‘Ah, but that’s different’. How? you may ask. The answer is that England believes that it will lose with Scotland’s Independence, but that it will gain from ‘independence’ from the EU.

    In other words, its about money. Nothing else. And England desperately wants Scotland’s money. Always has.

    Better Not Together. Scotland’s future.

  30. Hamish100

    Most public pools and private pools have mixed changing rooms including family cubicles. Have for years.

    Surely the main issue was female only changing areas being accessed by males claiming to be female or intending to be?

  31. Socrates MacSporran

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 11.32am

    Well said Dave, I’m with you on that. Let’s get the referendum up and running – and WON.

    Everything else is secondary to that, we may never have a better chance than in the next year, against a headless chicken Unionist opposition.

  32. call me dave

    I was waiting to hear the news on this day darn Sarf regarding the latest education results.

    I look forward with interest for the moment when a WM Gov minister gets a microphone under her nose to account for this.

    Oh wait… not in Scotland!

    A-levels: Dip in top grades as thousands get results

    Drug deaths soar to highest level on record

  33. call me dave

    her = their …tablet called HAL 🙁

  34. Clapper57

    Oh My Jo Swinson is going down like a lead balloon…arguing against May and Bojo’s red lines while imposing her own Red lines on Corbyn….supposed leader of official opposition BTW.

    ‘Liberal’ minded pundits be like…so do you want to stop no deal or are you more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM ? Plus what difference is there in YOUR red lines compared to Bojo’s…is there not a danger BOTH will ensure a No Deal Brexit…seems to be BOTH you and BOJO are failing to compromise on your red lines.

    Liberal democrats conundrum…Brexit, some say, was voted for by people, who via austerity, felt they were forgotten and neglected…said austerity endorsed and imposed by Jo Swinson in Tory coalition…now…full circle….Jo wants to stop the Brexit voted for by the very people she helped make the forgotten and neglected ones…..cause the opportunity to gain votes and power trump any notion of having any principles…yeh let’s just forget Jo’s past in Tory coalition…hey guys she repents so come on…forgive and forget…Now is the time to hoover up Remain votes not harp on about her liability for this sh*tfest she helped create.

    Jo doesn’t do irony…No to Corbyn ..No to IndyRef…No to people she helped make poorer…but yay a big fat YES to scavenging votes via Brexit opportunity now opened up for her party who she has crowned the MOST REMAIN PARTY IN UK…like ever.

    Is there anyone in the media willing to consider promoting that the self crowned Queen of Remain may be a tad culpable for the very thing, Brexit, that she now says she wants to “avert”….or are they once again going to ignore this because there is a new crown to be won….Queen of the Union….Ruth was forced to abdicate so there is a vacant position…and Miss twee may just fit the bill nicely…so let’s not rock the boat and mention this inconvenient truth when we have a Union to maintain and a new saviour to lead the battle against the ‘enemy’ .

    God help them if she is their great white hope…

  35. Liz g

    Charles @ 12.40
    Even supposing you’re right (your not but I can humour ye for a bit)
    Have you not been following the comments?
    There are many,very many, people standing ready to make sure that Wings becomes known outside “the bubble” and that includes every woman who has campaigned against the Gender Recognition Act…. That’s why I brought it up…
    They noticed and appreciated the support from the Rev and I’m pointing out they will return the favour.
    Seasoned campaigners from all over Scotland would endorse a Wings party just for the asking….

  36. Breeks

    Mark Fletcher says:
    15 August, 2019 at 12:07 pm
    As a Wings supporter, I don’t like the way me and the rest of us are now being traduced by opponents and supposed friends.

    Have we suddenly grown horns and a tail? Have we turned into slavering, sloganeering idiots?

    I’ve always had horns and a tail in the eyes of some… Never bothered me in the slightest.

    There was an interesting Tweet I read which said the people most upset about Rev Stu’s Party were those who had the most doubts about Nicola delivering on manifesto pledges… Actually quite insightful I thought…

    To be honest, maybe the SNP should consider themselves lucky. I commented months ago that if the SNP didn’t put their foot on the gas over Independence, they risked losing ground to a new, more radical “single issue” Independence Party, essentially doing to the SNP over Independence what UKIP did to the overly complacent Tories regarding Europe and Brexit.

    If it was me setting up a new party, not Rev Stu, the manifesto I would launch wouldn’t have Rev Stu’s restraint, but put Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty on centre stage, and it wouldn’t be taking any prisoners over Scotland’s imminent colonial subjugation, neither at Holyrood nor Westminster.

    The SNP wouldn’t be dealing with a Wings Party, (an Indy Friendly, complimentary Party targeting List seats which are currently a shoe-in for Unionists), but a more fundamentalist Constitutional Party advocating a much harder and uncompromising strategy than a wishy-washy IndyRef2-whenever, and be hellbent in the meantime on disrupting and disputing Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty in a Constitutional Court.

    Count your blessings SNP, and all those venting hostility in Rev Stu’s direction. It could have been worse… (and still yet could be). A constitutional interdiction might yet change the game completely… If you “politicos” won’t do it, then don’t cry in your beer if somebody else does.

  37. Chris Collins

    It appears you may have upset all of the established acts in Hollyrood!
    One might presume it’s due to the fact your a potential threat, stealing cushy jobs from the cabal of wasters and vote fodder who gain list seats.
    However I might be wrong.

  38. North chiel

    “ Cubby@1152” , quite right Cubby , nothing formal with these chancers . I am beginning to note a change in the “ output” ( ie propaganda) from the establishment “ broadcasters” . Already on Sky this morning interviews with our FM and leader of Plaid Cymru , Swinson and Britnat Lab. The penny has finally dropped within the Westminster establishment “ bubble” and London Britnat Centralist state controlled news channel “ talking shops” , that the “ precious precious union” is finished with a “ No deal” Brexit . Hence, I suspect “ blind panic” is now beginning to set in within the “ inner circle “ of the Britnat establishment, with references now even to “ The monarchy” intervening . “ The Union” versus Brexit is now very much to the fore and it wouldn’t surprise me if a “ cobbled together “ “ soft Brexit” is now favoured by the “ Westminster establishment” . This would mean Boris has to be “ deposed” as the “ hard Brexit” “ bind Scotland fast within the union gambol” would not succeed . ( Notwithstanding The Northern Ireland dilemma). It is beginning to look to me that the Westminster establishment elite are beginning to “ backtrack “ on a “ hard Brexit” . Perhaps a “ second eleven” or anti “Tory junta” government is being “ considered” to save “ the precious precious union” ?

  39. McDuff

    The point that is not being highlighted enough is that even if we get a soft Brexit it’s still Brexit,i.e. we are out of Europe. So hard or soft we are still being dragged out of Europe against our will.

  40. Patrick Roden


    Sometimes your comment will go into moderation if you post one comment after another.

    I think this is because a filter has been included in the site security system that is designed to prevent a ‘Denial of Service’ attack.

    It won’t be anything personal buddy.

  41. Dr Jim

    Jo Swinson aged 12 is my MP and she overturned a good man in John Nicolson with the usual vile Liberal Democrat tactics having said that she made no appearance whatsoever until the last week of the campaign because prior to that she wasn’t even on the literature which was all Willie Rennie and Nicola Sturgeon bad, pages and pages of bad and no referendums forever till we all die

    Unionists only understand divisive when they do it then it’s not divisive
    BTW Jo Swinson supports everything in the world that’s PC and because she’s a woman that’s more important, until she doesn’t

  42. Dr Jim

    Everybody making such a big stooshy over Stu’s pro Independence party

    Nobody uttered a stutter when Nigel Farage brought his single issue Brexit party to Scotland

    He was on the news and everything, what’s the bloody difference here, is it only a free country for some and not others to stand for parliament

  43. Robert J. Sutherland

    North chiel @ 13:17:

    it wouldn’t surprise me if a “cobbled together“ “soft Brexit” is now favoured by the “Westminster establishment”

    Oh yes. There has been a whole lot of noise recently about “stopping no-deal Brexit”, but what they are carefully not saying is “stop Brexit period”.

    There was Kinnock Jr. on the English Home Service lunchtime news lamenting that Labour had scuppered May’s “deal”, and still harking back on a “Labour Brexit” with a “better deal”.

    All this noise about no-deal is just headless-chicken panic mode, as if some supposed sooper-dooper shiny new Leave is just over the horizon on the yellow brick road. A persistent fairy tale they cling on to for lack of any practical alternative or guiding principle to follow. Even if they were to cravenly retreat to May’s miserable arrangement, that it somehow won’t cause its very own recession.

    The Westminster Establishment doesn’t have a clue, so on and on their clown circus stumbles. Their yellow brick road ends, not in Nirvana, but in a very real precipice. And they are staggering along it, confused and wearing blindfolds.

    Please, can’t we just get out of this madness, and the sooner the better…?

  44. Patrick Roden

    RE Trans issues:

    I am always open to be persuaded/convinced about anyone’s right to express their own sexual/emotional orientation, but the thing that has me spitting blood, is the way that the Trans agenda was being pushed through by the SNP, without them listening to the legitimate concerns that women have expressed.

    It smacked of the SNP taking the ‘We know better than the plebs’ attitude so beloved of Westminster, and makes a mockery of any idea that we might be sovereign citizens.

    If we allow the SNP to treat us like that, and they want to treat us like that, then it starts to feel like we are jumping out of the Westminster frying pan, into the SNP fire.

    I am disgusted at the amount of men claiming to be women, who turn out to be convicted pedophiles, demanding access to children and calling anyone who expresses concern about this as trans-phobic.

    I’m not going to tarnish every legitimate transsexual person with the same brush as these pedophiles, but at the same time, would expect any decent trans person/supporter to recognize the legitimate concerns from the wider community about this and to recognize that we must prioritize children’s safety before the rights of any individual minority.

    There’s also legitimate concerns about trans men demanding that lesbians must have sex with them, which moves the issue from trans rights, onto the sexual abuse of women.

    I can’t help thinking that some politicians/individuals find it a lot easier to abuse the people who express concerns about possible dangers to women and children than to untangle the complex issues covered by Trans rights/womens rights.

    Politicians who can’t, show that they do not have the abilities required to be in positions of authority, that effects the safety of children and the rights of women.

    So to our esteemed politicians of whatever colour my appeal is:

    Start listening as well as dealing with the legitimate concerns of the people you are elected to represent, or find an alternative career that won’t result in your incompetence to result in women and children being sexually exploited.

  45. Cubby

    A Tory MP pops up and says a Corbyn PM would be a disaster for the UK. What the hell does he think the current situation is.

    The truth is all Britnat PMs are a disaster for Scotland. Always have been and always will be.

    Independence or just a different flavour of Britnat disasters for Scotland is our future.

  46. Chick McGregor

    Jo Swinson, not so much out of her depth as digging from the other side of the planet.

  47. Tam the Bam.

    Just watched BBC 1 News.Despite the headline fact that A Grade passes dipped to their lowest level in 10 years,
    Aunties spin was,if anything,upbeat.
    Contrast that with Reporting Scotlands take on the Scottish results a few days ago.

    Now that’s how the Beeb editorial ‘spin machine’ works folks!

  48. Liz g

    Patrick Roden @ 1.58
    It wasnt just the SNP all the party’s in Holyrood supported this and were about to wave it through….
    But apart from that well said

  49. North chiel

    “ McDuff @ 0132” the point is a referendum is still valid “ material change in circumstances “. However the Unionist establishment will target the “ soft no” vote again from the “ soft Brexit” position .Some of these votes surely would move to “ Yes” under a “ hard Brexit”. ( ie the current 52 pc currently showing in polls must include “ soft No’s” since 2014.

  50. Clapper57

    My oh My why is Bella C always trying to take a RISE out of WOS …just because he can RISE to the occasion…perhaps because Bella C knows this gives RISE to a backlash of negativity from like minded individuals against WOS.

    At least WOS is willing to RISE up and be counted and not stand back and carp from the sidelines with endless very PETTY swipes at the SNP and those other Indy undesirable ‘types’ who refuse to comply with the rules of civility as dictated by those ever so civil types such as Bella C .

    Note that Bella C only to happy to RISE against WOS in their quest to RISE to the top of the most read and popular blogs.

    Refreshing that WOS is always willing to RISE to the challenge where as Bella C prefers to wait in the wings and see what way the wind is blowing ….minding their P and Q’s….always hoping WOS will RISE to the bait they regularly set so that they can then look down from their lofty tower casting aspersions and encouraging others to do the same.

    I think we all can RISE above the obvious baiting and trolling that originates from Bella C towards us but one wonders why they feel so inclined to treat us with disdain , the ordinary folk, while supposedly once endorsing a socialist party, RISE, as the best Indy option…for ordinary folk….think it is time Bella C learnt to RISE and shine on the reality that tis ordinary folk who will , with the help of peeps like WOS, convince and convert others to support Independence with OUR opinions and not convoluted opinions via their ‘prefer Intellectuals comment only’ website…..Bella C is as intolerant of negative feedback that they accuse WOS being guilty of ….so perhaps tis time they reflected on the bigger picture and stopped fighting against the very people who want what they say they want…after all we will never RISE up and be a nation again if they continue this divide and conquer rhetoric ….I wonder what new party will RISE from the grave that Bella C will, in the future, endorse to fight against the SNP…the mind literally boggles.

    Perhaps RISE will RISE from the ashes…..

  51. Lenny Hartley

    Dave McEwan Hill The rev has stated that its just a thought at the moment,
    Where you heading If it all goes tits up, im thinking about Eire or the Isle of Man myself.

  52. Clydebuilt


    As you say the right people are strongly against a Wings Party.

    I’ll definately vote for it . . . If the opportunity arises!

    Always voted SNP, both votes

  53. winifred mccartney

    Dr Jim and Patrick Roden ditto and ditto, we now have the Green co-convenor who will not disclose gender, as if young people and children do not have enough to bother about growing up and of course women and mothers are the last people to be heard or listened to. Just as women are getting strong enough to leave abusive relationships and choose their sexual partners along come trans issues to knock them back and try to undo all the progress made.

  54. Cubby

    BBC Reporting that oil is flowing from huge new Mariner oil field. Biggest development in a decade.

    New oil and gas fields going live on a regular basis now. Scotland is swimming in a sea of oil and gas wealth.

    Of course the BBC show no signs of embarrassment, never mind any apology, for punting all the lies about oil running out etc etc over decades.

    Of course there will still be some brainwashed Britnats out there who still believe there is no oil left or you can’t make money as the price per barrel is too low.

    The money will go straight to Westminster to try and finance their Brexit disaster. Just as it did in the eighties to finance the millions of unemployed created by Thatcher

    If you are happy to be stolen from and abused vote to stay in the UK.

  55. Ken500

    They are mixed changing rooms. Open mixed changing areas. With cubicles. Beach leisure centre. Or separate male/females and a separate family/mixed changing room. Hotel.

    The fuss about mixed changing rooms when there have been ones for years. Even in old baths that were knocked down. Beach Baths. Baths have been renovated with the (mixed)changing rooms around the pool.

    People can be attack mainly by men. People attack other people. There are no. Statistic showing people are more likely to be attacked by trans gender people. The mass hysteria is just ridiculous. People are more likely to be hurt accidentally in a toilet than be attacked. 10,000 a years. Should toilets be banned?

  56. kapelmeister

    A couple of years ago Jeremy Corbyn was convinced his bandwagon was rolling and going to take him to Downing Street. Now he wants to work with others to be a caretaker PM and avoid no deal.

    Unlike the SNP, Plaid and Greens, Swinson doesn’t want to know Corbyn. That’s because she’s in the exact same mindset Corbyn was in the summer of 2017. She is delusional about becoming PM without the help of other parties. Except in her case it’s way more of a delusion than it was in Corbyn’s.

    By the way, the SNP shouldn’t work with Corbyn until they have anything in writing. He’s treacherous.

  57. Colin Alexander

    Dave McEwan Hill

    So, if the UK Govt amend the Scotland Act to reserve referendums to WM by taking them from Holyrood’s devolved powers, you could call it Kill Bill 2 ( as that’s what they did with the Continuity Bill), you and the SNP give up, the game’s a bogey?

  58. manandboy


    With it’s preferred Tory Government in particular, in charge of running things, the English Ruling Class are free to do what they love most – making money, lording it over everyone, and making their presence felt, especially among the poor, the sick and those with disabilities.
    I doubt very much if the Ruling Class loves anyone, except themselves. They certainly don’t have any love for ‘foreigners’, and that is true in particular about Scots. The English do not love Scots. The do however, love what Scotland has, which is mostly lots and lots of money. Which Scotland has plenty of.

    When England speaks of being ‘Better Together’, that’s what they mean – better for the English Ruling Class.

    Please wake up, no voters.


  59. BobW

    @David McEwan Hill

    If we lose that I’m off.
    If we don’t go for one I’m off.

    Nice for you! Lots of us don’t have that option. Where’s your commitment to Scottish independence, if you’re just going to walk away?

  60. Ken500

    The NSPCC reports 3000 grooming incidents last year. 3000 too many. It is still really rare. Out of a population 62Million. Children are attacked quite rarely, The incidence remains the same for years. There is mass hysteria around crime created by the Press by false headlines etc.

    Many crimes are at there lowest levels for years. Statistically quite low. Too many people are put in cells on ‘charges’ that cannot go to Court. A total waste of time and public money. Double at weekend. Two nights. The Police would be better just giving them a lift home and a reprimand. A warning. Only repeat ‘offenders’ should be charged and kept in cells for minor misdemeanours. 85%? of males have criminal records.

  61. BobW

    @Ken 500

    85%? of males have criminal records.

    Citation required. Does a parking ticket count in your 85%? If not I must be in the 15%.

  62. Liz g

    Ken 500 @ 2.40
    Sex based rights,protections and Laws are there for a reason!
    It has very little to do with being hysterical…

  63. call me dave

    The oils awa, the oils awa, they’ve taken it awa the Exciseman,
    Westminster danc’d awa, an pissed it aw, against a wa wi’ the Exciseman!

    All gone darn Sarf! 🙁

  64. Cubby


    “By the way, the SNP shouldn’t work with Corbyn until they have anything in writing. He’s treacherous.”

    Spot on comment. He’s a Britnat. Independence and freedom across the world is supported by Corbyn but not for Scotland.

    However, even if it is in writing they cannot be trusted. The INFAMOUS VOW was in writing across the front page of the Daily Record and they reneged on that.

    Britnats lie and are without any sense of honour and integrity.

  65. Clapper57

    @ kapelmeister @ 2.30pm

    “By the way, the SNP shouldn’t work with Corbyn until they have anything in writing. He’s treacherous”.

    Hi Kapelmeister, I’m beginning to think the SNP shouldn’t work with any of them…this Remain alliance is being set up to make the Lib Dems THE ones who fought for AND either won or tried to win a second EU Ref..perhaps even the ones who stopped Brexit Lol… and who will , in a heartbeat, throw all the endeavours the SNP have tried to achieve for the UKOK to remain in EU within this so called alliance..under the bus.

    Post outcome they will happily and most willingly detract all of the efforts made by the SNP in this alliance by promoting how divisive they, the SNP, are for wanting independence via another Indy Ref.

    We could all write their script….cause you get NO THANKS from those chancers who, lead by Swinson, expects the public to absolve her for past ‘sins’ and yet will happily bear false witness against her perceived ‘sins’ that she relates the SNP are guilty of…both past, present and in the future.

    You know just when you think you hate the Tories most…then it becomes the Labour party that you hate most….and then along comes the Lib Dems….and then you realise…irrespective of party colour the ones you hate most of all are the ones who hide behind the Red White and Blue …which is ALL of the Unionist parties….not a distinction between them in their Union uber alles divisive message………me thinks perhaps the best alliance for the SNP is the alliance with the EU…with an independent Scotland becoming a new member state…hate is a strong word I know….me bad…again.

  66. Cubby

    Tam the Bam@2.04pm

    Saw that myself. Very upbeat report. No mention of criticism of the UK Education Secretary or the Governments. A very stark contrast with the clear anti Scotgov/SNP report when the Scottish results were revealed.

    Bias or propaganda, call it what you want, unacceptable in a democracy. Oh forgot Scotland is a faux democracy.

  67. Dan

    Re. Bird persecution. (To be clear; that’s avian birds and not related to gender / Self Id discussion!)
    Beautiful weather today and I spent the morning in our wonderful countryside assisting installing an owl box up a tree.
    Whilst we were working there was a good chat about the ongoing advances in technology and how it’s being applied to help monitor bird activity.
    As the tech improves, so does the data it can produce. The wider the scope of data collected means that it could be run through software specific to the species it is collected from. Alarms could be triggered if for instance a bird’s rate of descent does not fit in with its general behaviour. EG. A bird effectively dropping vertically from the sky may well be symptomatic of a shot bird.
    Different species of birds can only carry devices of a certain weight. Ongoing development of the tech will manage to reduce overall device size and weight.
    One hopes developments in this area will help put a stop to the illegal practices that still appear to be occurring against our wildlife.

    A quick cuppa gulped doon as it’s the back o’ three
    Then it’s time to head out and catch a fish for my tea…


  68. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Wings is v popular with Indy fans obviously, so why not not just endorse the greens and get them more seats, rather than create a new party that splits the regional vote further and threatens the greens, who have done a lot of good in parliament??”


  69. Iain More

    Convince me that a Wings Party can win loads of seats and I will vote for it. I am sick and tired of being taken for granted by the SNP. We are being taken fro granted by them. I will never vote for the Greens. Not since they voted with Tory ("Tractor" - Ed)s to repeal the OBFA.

    Off topic sort of – Oh and the Rails need Nationalised. Given no time at all the other day to get from Bus Stop to Train at Dyce. SNP needs to nationalise the rail network like yesterday and not just the train Companies.

    My complaint to Michael Matheson went unanswered. Poor show that!!

  70. Jamie

    It is a good idea, whilst I would likely still vote Solidarity with my 2nd vote, if a wings party can achieve the aim of getting non voters to vote as well as former snp voters and current snp voters to all vote wings then a pro Indy majority seems likely which is only a good thing. Should make the Scottish parliament more interesting and I.prove the debate somewhat. Only quibble would be the likely return of OBFA, I think banning music is something that should be left to the Taliban and whilst polls show support, polls often fail to represent the people who sometimes vote and who the wings party would be trying to encourage to turnout too. Might be something to consider at manifesto time. I think a general rule of not banning more things is a good rule of thumb.

  71. Dave McEwan Hill

    BobW at 2.38

    As I joined the SNP in 1959 and have spent the best part of 60 years in continuous activity for independence I have no requirement to answer to anybody – but if we don’t go for a referendum at a point at which our opportunity is at its highest – and never will be higher – I’m off.

  72. Graeme

    “Only quibble would be the likely return of OBFA, I think banning music is something that should be left to the Taliban”

    What do you mean by that Jamie ?

  73. Mac

    manandboy @1200


    It was a long post indeed.

    And it feels like such a waste of time, I will not do it again.

    That’s me done.

  74. Ahundredthidiot

    Dave McEwan Hill

    I cannot claim SNP membership for that long…….but I will be on the seat beside you…..if this isn’t done by end of ’21, I’m off…..made that promise 3 years ago.

  75. CameronB Brodie

    Patrick Roden @1:58pm
    Very well said.



    1. During this decade there has been a significant shift in approach to women’s advancement and empowerment. While previously the advancement of women was regarded as important for outcomes such as economic development or population policies, more than ever the international community has come to consider the empowerment and autonomy of women and the improvement of their political, social, economic and health status as important ends in themselves. This shift in approach reflects a human rights approach to issues of concern to women….

  76. twathater

    Re Corbyn alliance with the SNP to stop no deal brexshit, I have read numerous comments on here and lots of other places that Nicola is only trying to protect decent English people from their own folly , has it not occurred to people that 17.4 million people voted for brexshit how many of them are decent English people or are they all raving xenophobes and racists
    Surely it is time for Nicola to say enough is enough I and we have done our best to convince people that brexshit is total madness , to ally her and us with an openly supporter of brexshit which Corbyn is only delays and confuses the issue even more

    We have had 80+years of liebours lies and ruinous hypocrisy the most recent better together and THE VOW why would we believe ANYTHING they say now , IMO tell corbyn and his fellow imperialists to F/O because no matter what we do to save the ( decent ??) English people from their imbecilic choices of government THEY AFTER ALL VOTED THEM IN AND THEY CONTINUE TO DO SO
    We have complained continuously that no matter who we vote for we ALWAYS get the govt england imposes on us , so we now have the govt we voted for fighting to save the politicians we didn’t vote for , ma heids burstin

    Stu I so wish your party was available to vote for now

  77. twathater

    @ Mac 4.54pm I have done some long posts and have them disappear as well , I read your long post up thread and enjoyed it , don’t be discouraged everyone’s views gives diversity of thought

  78. CameronB Brodie

    The potential impacts of the proposed changes to the GRA, are far more wide-ranging in scope than simply those concerning biological women’s right to safety and privacy. Social justice is unobtainable without ethically rational jurisprudence. Re-defining the legal definition of women, throws legal reason into chaos.

    Alicia Ely Yamin, Power, Suffering, and the Struggle for Dignity: Human Rights Frameworks for Health and Why They Matter

  79. CameronB Brodie

    One for all the woke bros and sistas out there, who need to let go of their misdirected idealism and step into the real world.

    The Legal, Medical and Cultural Regulation of the Body

    This edited collection arose out of discussions about the body at a Birmingham University seminar in September 2008. It has set itself the brave task of collecting together perspectives on the body, each of which has been written on at length in separate forums. Thus, it has four parts to it: Regulating Reproduction; Interspecies Embryos; Transforming the Body; and finally, Self-Harm and Determination.

    The areas of the regulation of the body it focuses on are that of the human embryo; the interspecies embryo; bodily transformation via selective amputation and cosmetic surgery; and treatment decisions which affect patient autonomy. The perspectives concentrated upon are largely medico-legal, particularly in the section on Self-Harm and Determination, but the volume also touches upon ethics, religion, feminism, and culture. All of the varied chapters are interesting and informative…

  80. CameronB Brodie

    “….Re-defining the legal definition of women to include biological men who feel they are women, throws legal reason into chaos.

  81. CameronB Brodie

    If you want to support the “common good”, you need to stop supporting ideology grounded in sexist cultural stereotypes, so stick this in your pipe and inhale.

    Gender & women’s rights

    Equality and non-discrimination are core human rights concepts; everyone should be treated equally, no matter what their status. Notably, however, many human rights impacts stemming from business activities are ‘gendered’ in that they affect women and men, boys and girls, differently.

    Frequently, women and girls bear a disproportionate burden of negative social, economic, and environmental impacts while having less access to benefits such as job creation, supply contracts, or compensation, which may be generated by private sector development.

    Negative gender stereotypes reinforce and perpetuate historical and structural patterns of discrimination, which undermine women’s ability to improve their socio-economic conditions. In 155 out of 173 economies, at least one gender-based legal restriction exists on women’s employment and entrepreneurship (World Bank). Globally, women only make 77 cents for every dollar men earn (UN Women). This has given rise to a ‘gender pay gap’ of 23% worldwide.

    One reason for this gap is occupational segregation. This can be vertical, whereby women and men tend towards different industries, and industries dominated by women typically earn less. It can also be horizontal, in that within those industries, women occupy positions of with lower salaries and less chance of promotion than men (Investing in Women’s Employment).

    Women are underrepresented in senior positions within both public and private sectors. For instance, women accounted for 33% of senior management positions in central government, despite making up 52% of all central government employees, in 2016. In the same year, only 4.8% of chief executive officer positions were held by women (OECD). On the contrary, women are over represented in agricultural, textile and garment industries, which are characterized as being low paid, insecure and unsafe (UN Women). Aside from employment, women are also sometimes excluded from having autonomy or power over land. In addition to loss of livelihood, they and their families may be displaced without having a say on securing alternative land or compensation (Human Rights Watch).

    A mapping by the Danish Institute for Human Rights provides an overview of select topics for state attention in strengthening their gender focus in UNGPs implementation processes, including, but not limited to, NAPs. The objectives of the mapping are to contribute to understanding the rights of women and girls in relation to business and human rights (BHR) dialogue, to identify gaps in gender analysis of BHR, as well as to provide country examples of how such gaps may be addressed….

  82. Hamish100

    dave McEwan Hill

    you have no chance of leaving. Its a force 2 on the Clyde- the ferry is off and the Rest and be thankful is blocked by tourists!!

  83. Alisdair

    I would vote for a List Wings Party in a heartbeat, its clever, well thought out and much needed. Saying that, and throwing a hat in the ring with regard to the killing of Raptors, might I suggest that the one way to stop it is quite simply to fine the Estate where the remains are found, and not only that, being absolutely punitive with the fine? You may think that unfair but here is the reasoning to my simple mind. Given that punitive fines would be prosecuted and given the large feeding range that these animals have could any single Estate lay down poisons without fear of having to pay? Moreover, definite evidence of predation on lambs from hill farms should be compensated by the Government, would that work, is that nor fair?

  84. CameronB Brodie

    Fek me but I’d forgotten I know a bit about stuff. Re. the intersectionality of abelism and class privilege. That’s largely why human rights were invented, to secure the social position of the vulnerable (see women and Scotland, also women in Scotland). 😉

    Human rights, international human rights, and sovereign political authority: a draft model for understanding contemporary human rights

  85. Patrick Roden

    @ Liz,

    It wasnt just the SNP all the party’s in Holyrood supported this and were about to wave it through….

    The thing is Liz,

    I expected better from the SNP.

    I feel so let down by this it’s unreal.

    The Greens? I don’t expect anything from them.

  86. CameronB Brodie

    Patrick Roden
    I think we are both on the same page Patrick.

  87. Jamie

    Graeme, I thought my jokey comment was fairly clear. It seems to me that whilst OBFA is lauded as having noble aims with regards to the proposed end result, ending Sectarianism, it was not clear to many how this would be achieved other than adding convictions to many people for singing cultural songs. Sure many people don’t like the songs but many do. I guess, I’m saying it is probably best to refrain to adding more things to the banned list. Because if history tells us anything, it can start with music being banned and then before you know it you have crack pots marching down the street shout Allah akbar, or a more Scottish example folk walking down the street drinking watered down iron bru. Slippery slope, before you know it guys will be flashing lady cocks in women’s toilets. Where to next? I just reckon there are less contentious and more important issues that motivate more people. Better wages, better and more housing and better working conditions. I would have thought based on my life experience these are the 3 most important issues of the average worker but watching the Scottish parliament and Westminster in recent years you would think it was GRA, OBFA, Sugar taxes, bag taxes and all sorts of other gumpf while folk are struggling on zero hours contracts and living in council houses made of paper whilst earning a pittance. Maybe it’s just me though… oh well if you can’t beat em join em, where’s the Taliban 😀

  88. CameronB Brodie

    I hear what you’re saying but it’s hard to ascribe a positive value to sectarianism, even if you strech cultural relativism past breaking point. I’m sure Prof. Gerry Hussan would agree, given his background is cultural studies. We are not the Taliban. 🙂

    Time for some stuff?

    Understanding Cultural Relativism: A critical Appraisal of the Theory


    The aim of this review article is to reveal the cons and pros of ethical relativism, especially conventionalism. This article is written with the intention of showing some of the practical upshots of conventionalism without totally denying some of its virtues in a world where diversity of cultures and customs is apparent. The article inquires the question: Is ethical relativism tenable? The review article relies on reviewing secondary sources.

    What I am arguing in this article is that despite the attraction of ethical relativism as an intellectual weapon to fight against ethnocentrism and cultural intolerance, the view still goes against the idea of intercultural comparison, criticism and moral argumentation, so that it would have serious disastrous implication on practice, especially on the universal character of human rights and shutters all together any sort of moral progress and reform.

    The article concludes that we can set forth certain objective moral codes, discovered through rational intercultural dialogue and discussion which could be applied regardless of cultural specificities upon which cultural inter-comparison, discussion and moral argumentation is possible.

  89. CameronB Brodie

    The fundamental condition of sectarianism, the tool of choice of the British state, is the control of political power and economic resources. It is social practice that articulates the authoritarian assertion of cultural and political hegemony. As such, is sectarianism a social practice that should be celebrated, protected, and perpetuated?

    Time for some critical legal theory?

    Contingencies of Value: Alternative Perspectives for Critical Theory
    Relativism, Objectivity, and Law

  90. Jamie

    Hi Cameron.

    I guess the way it could be seen is that Celtic Rangers matches are for some a battle reenactment, like the mock civil wars in America that celebrate and remember the Civil war. It could be argued that Celtic vs Rangers is a similar celebration of history, albeit one that can at times go to far. I’m sure when it does go to far and people carry out acts of violence they can be convicted in the usual manner. It simply is not true that because someone was sectarian they can no longer be convicted of assault. It has been done many times and for the police to suggest that at times is down right bizarre. It just seems to me the Police are trying to introduce ever more laws. I think there are enough laws. If used properly, there are so many laws you could lock up the whole country if you were so inclined, but it does come down to funding and the police are underfunded. I would say that is more of an issue than more laws.

  91. Cubby


    Can I recommend paragraph breaks to you.

    ” cultural songs”. Songs of hate more like.

  92. CameronB Brodie

    Cultural bigotry is never an excuse. British sectarianism is a tool of cultural oppression, it has no place in modern, civil, society.

  93. CameronB Brodie

    It isn’t possible to ethically defendy the intolerance and hatred that drives the sectarian’s bigotry, as “culture”.

    Anthropology’s ethics: Moral positionalism, cultural relativism, and critical analysis

  94. CameronB Brodie

    defendy? 🙂


  95. CameronB Brodie

    Unlike those who would try to convince you sectarianism is valid culture, I don’t make up facts to suite a prejudiced world-view. If you are in any doubt if strong cultural relativism is bad, it is the force that underpins British nationalism.

    Concepts and Ideas
    Cultural Relativism and Universal Values

    Jack Donnelly—Defining “Cultural Relativism”

    In its most extreme form, what we can call radical cultural relativism would hold that culture is the sole source of the validity of a moral right or rule. Radical universalism would hold that culture is irrelevant to the validity of moral rights or rules, which are universally valid. The body of the continuum defined by these typical end-points – that is those positions involving varying mixes of relativism and universalism – can be roughly divided into what we can call strong cultural relativism and weak cultural relativism.

    “Strong cultural relativism” holds that culture is the principal source of the validity of a moral right or rule. Universal human rights standards, however, serve as a check on potential excesses of relativism. At its furthest extreme, just short of radical relativism, strong cultural relativism would accept a few basic rights with virtual universal application, but allow such a wide range of variation for most rights that two entirely justifiable sets might overlap only slightly….

  96. CameronB Brodie

    Sorry, but it would have been helpful to include the next paragraph, as not everyone supports the principle of universal human rights. Certainly not the British state (see the full-English Brexit).

    In its most extreme form, what we can call radical cultural relativism would hold that culture is the sole source of the validity of a moral right or rule. Radical universalism would hold that culture is irrelevant to the validity of moral rights or rules, which are universally valid. The body of the continuum defined by these typical end-points – that is those positions involving varying mixes of relativism and universalism – can be roughly divided into what we can call strong cultural relativism and weak cultural relativism….

  97. Jamie

    I suspose Cameron that to say it is not possible to defend cultural songs is to say that there can never be battle renactments because people died.

    Bad things happened in the past but it is not neccessarily bad to celebrate victories, I guess it is how you go about it. Singing a song is one thing, engaging in violence and riots is quite another.

    I am only suggesting that banning music is not the answer and is possibly a tad over sensitive.

    Hi Cubby, I mostly respond with my phone and it is not user friendly at all, especially when it is on low power mode and sadly I am unable to write in paragraphs in those circumstances as it is very cumbersome.

  98. Joe

    @Dr Jim 11:33 am

    Thats because everybody has links to many different group identities. So much so that each persons mix of such identities could be said to be unique. I know, lets invent a term for this (individual will do) and establish rights based on that? Oh, we had that. Someone please tell the lefties.

  99. CameronB Brodie

    “Bad things happened in the past but it is not neccessarily bad to celebrate victories, I guess it is how you go about it. Singing a song is one thing, engaging in violence and riots is quite another.”

    I’m not saying culture can’t be celebrated and defended, it’s about how you do it. The basic guide is to avoid harm and exclusion to Others. Songs celebrating bloody massacres are definitely harmful culture that poisons the social fabric. Socially harmful cultural practice needs modification and moderation, either through internal or external agency. Culture that is built on the oppression of other cultures, is kind of hard to justify (see the full-English Brexit).

  100. CameronB Brodie

    I have been shouting about how the left are destroying human rights for some time now. The thing is, legal human rights are largely a response to right-wing extremism. Think on that.

  101. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Instead of all this maths and arithmetic, why not just prepare an understandable, coherent case for independence. That would be the honest way to proceed.”

    Um, we did that several years ago. It was 72 pages long.

  102. Joe

    Cameron, im no fan of any extremes. However the one that concerns me in Scotland is the hints of leftist authoritarianism emanating from ‘pro independence’ partys like a bad smell

  103. CameronB Brodie

    I’m agreeing with you again Joe, gonnae no do that. 🙂

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