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Subsidy junkies

Posted on January 19, 2014 by

We can’t be the only people, surely, to find the latest “Better Together” gambit one of their strangest yet. Never mind the made-up figures or the spurious assertions or their usual habit of having headline amounts which use cumulative sums over many years to make numbers sound bigger. Just look at the barely-concealed subtext here:

subsidyjunkies1

“Don’t leave the UK, or you’ll have to give your money to the English! Eurgh!”

Because in the context of the EU, what’s that a diagram of? Yup – nations “pooling and sharing resources”. Exactly the thing we’re endlessly promised by Labour if we DON’T vote Yes. Pooling and sharing our resources with England, Wales and Northern Ireland is a GOOD thing if we do it from inside the UK, but a BAD thing if we do it as an independent nation in the EU.

(Let’s take pity on them and leave aside for a moment the very considerable likelihood of the UK leaving the EU and rendering the whole thing moot.)

For a campaign based entirely on the concept of “togetherness”, it’s a little odd to try to scare Scots with the thought that they might have to help out their neighbours, no?

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    1. Doug Daniel says:

      Have you got a link to their apology for pretending Scotland wouldn’t get in the EU, or their graphic saying “okay we admit it, Scotland won’t get chucked out of the EU”? I must have missed it somehow.

    2. HandandShrimp says:

      Better Together simultaneously argue that we will be in and out of the EU. I think it is a Project Fear uncertainty thing.

    3. Gizzit says:

      Personally, I’m just astounded they made Scotland the same size and shape as the other states in the centre panel.

      They missed a trick by not showing it as a stunted, emaciated, misshapen oddity.

      Poor show BT – P45s all around.

    4. john mcvey says:

      Amazing how they tell you about the loss of approx 1.5 billion over next 7 yrs but somehow forget to tell us about the 0.8 billion YEARLY grant we would receive for agriculture etc. Mmmmm

    5. Feil Gype says:

      2 polls in todays papers showing UKIP are likely te be in a coalition with the Tories in 2015. Better Together should stop using the EU te scare folk since its highly likely the rUK is heading oot o it.

    6. Wee Jonny says:

      Clicked onto “the latest Better Together gambit” and managed to read one word. I always feel a wee bit sick going on any B.T. sites. I’ll stick to Wings for the truth.

    7. Dal Riata says:

      Schrödinger’s EU paradox¦ Scotland will be both in *and* out the EU at the same time… depending on which scare story Better Together are pushing regarding an independent Scotland and the EU.

    8. Alba4Eva says:

      Feil Gype… my prediction is that UKIP will be the single biggest party in 2015. Hows that for a prediction.

    9. OK, let’s leave aside that a Yes vote wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference to employment prospects ‘Doon Sooth’ unless Britain’s [sic] most popular party wins the next UKGE and/or Englandshire votes to ‘separate’ us all from Europe in Dave’s splittist referendum.

      However, I also found it odd that Project Fear were boasting that [a made up number of] graduates had to forsake friends and relations and head South for work, due to Westminster’s mismanagement of the Scottish economy. I couldn’t resist correcting their graphic for them, with the strains of Dougie MacLean’s ‘Caledonia’ and a Tennents advert ringing in my ears.

      https://twitter.com/logicsrock/status/423317568628068353/photo/1

    10. Albert Herring says:

      Schrödinger’s EU paradox.

      Or Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, however the vacuum at the heart of Better Together really is empty.

    11. Alba4Eva says:

      Good work Roddy 🙂

    12. Ghengis D'Midgies says:

      Westminster keeps the cash so we don’t benefit from any rebate.

      Regarding their map, Shetland is missing

    13. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      How much of that rebate actually came to Scotland. As far as I know, london decided where it allocates such rebates and entitlements.

      Even if it was 300 million pounds ( population wise calculation), it is small with respect to other savings we would make regarding the EU.

      This latter can be seen in the theft of about 1 Billion pounds due to Scotland under the CAP, which was captured by London and sent elsewhere.

      I am surprised that any farmer votes for the Union, honestly.

    14. Ian Brotherhood says:

      It’s the hokey-cokey:

    15. Andrew Morton says:

      @Roddy Macdonald

      The real trick with that BT scare poster is that it doesn’t say ‘3,000 Scottish students who graduated from a Scottish university found jobs in the rest of the UK’.

      If you parse it carefully, it could equally mean, ‘3,000 students from the rest of the UK who graduated from a Scottish university returned home at the end of their courses’.

      You see what they did there?

    16. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      You on the aperitifs already?

      smiley cock eyed facey thing

    17. Jimbo says:

      Better together should change their name to Hokey Cokey. They’ve had us in and out so many times it’s become bewildering.

    18. Ah’m lost, are we in or are we oot?

    19. robert young says:

      Cameron’s referendum on E.U membership makes this pointless as he is determined to get rUK out of the E.U. It’s pathetic that they think sensible people will swallow this gumph. brainless no sheep yup but anyone with a hint of sense will question this.

    20. Aislingean says:

      If the UK leaves the EEC 2.2million British immigrants currently in Europe will lose their right to live there.

      They will legally be required to return to the UK or seek to become Citizens of their adopted country within a predetermined timescale.

    21. Andrew Morton says:

      Should I stay or should I go?

    22. Anyhoo, enough of this banter. Back out with my bag of Yes newspapers. North Inch and Nether Liberton won’t Yes itself! For anyone else, I can recommend Adam Holmes’ The 2 EPs as making for great pavement-pounding choons!

      http://adamholmesandtheembers.com/

    23. CameronB says:

      More cracked crystal bollocks.

    24. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Albert Herring

      Heisenberg was probably right, on balance.

    25. Marker Post says:

      On the link to the Guardian,

      “The latest Opinium/Observer poll suggests 52% of the British public aged over 18 would vote to leave the EU tomorrow, while 34% would vote to stay, representing a small increase since last November when 50% said they would vote to leave.”

      Anyone have any idea what the breakdown in Scotland is?

    26. Murray McCallum says:

      Look at little Scotland in the graphic – a tiny speck within the EU. What has happened? Just the other day we were critical to world peace and the rule of law working within the UN.

    27. Glass Girl says:

      I gather that the EU pays the rebate as a sort of loss adjuster because the UK farming sector makes up a small proportion of GDP. Isn’t it wishful thinking for BT to assume that the UK government would continue to receive the full amount after an independence vote given that a large chunk of this farmland would be removed from the equation?

    28. kendomacaroonbar says:

      Have the BT crowd actually received confirmation from the EU that an independent Scotland would have to pay more, or is this just an assertion ?

    29. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Have the BT crowd actually received confirmation from the EU that an independent Scotland would have to pay more, or is this just an assertion?”

      Take a wild stab.

    30. BuckieBraes says:

      Is there a household in the land that factors in the cost of its EU membership in day-to-day budgeting?

      ‘That’s the council tax paid, and the gas bill’s in. How much have we spent on food this month? The kids need new trainers…and oh God, nearly forgot – our EU membership!’

    31. Brian Powell says:

      I thought I’d mention the black comedy I witnessed yesterday, as Ian Davidson, on the Westminster Committee for Scottish Independence, tried to construct the following scenario.

      Asylum seekers, camped at Calais, would hire boats or ships, sail the hundreds of miles up the North Sea, and dock unseen at Leith.

      Then travel, presumable after asking directions, to Coldstream, build refugee camps, and wait there to get access across and past newly constructed border posts, so they can then maybe get a bus or train to London.

      Or hike across the Cheviots,he said, and walk, get a bus or train, to London. So to become illegal aliens in rUK.

      I added the bit about the bus or train as he wasn’t clear how they would get to London.

      A Labour colleague was concerned that it be shown that the border posts would be paid for by the Scottish Government.

      The witnesses before the Committee, giving opinion, looked perplexed.

      Voters these are your representatives in Westminster and from the Party you will be supporting if you vote No.

    32. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BTP –

      I remember going into Woolies and buying that single because I was convinced the singer was Ian Dury. There’s blind hero-worship for ye.

    33. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Rev Stu

      Twas a rhetorical question sirrah

    34. Hetty says:

      If the British people were given the facts about the pros and cons of the EU would they still vote to leave it? It is not perfect and a lot of people hate the whole thing, but the alternative for the ‘British’
      people, ie a very right wing regime, which removes their human rights at the drop of a hat and that would just be the beginning. People do not see just how being part of the EU gives them some protection at least in their work, in their lives and human rights protection, leaving the EU and scrapping the human rights act, brrrrr, doesnt bare thinking about.

    35. Aislingean says:

      If Scotland was to be an Independent EEC member and The UK was to leave the EEC how many Re-immigrants would Scotland have to accept. Scotland would be bound by EEC law and her citizens would continue to enjoy domiciliary rights in the EEC whereas those from ‘Down South’ would not.
      Seems the UK is heading into many difficulties.

    36. cirsium says:

      But the pooling and sharing would be with FOREIGNERS (OMG), Rev, which from the Bereft Totally viewpoint is really, really BAD.

    37. Training Day says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Aye, and the bias continues unabated on today’s Sunday Politics show, with the programme ending with a Unionist lovefest between Gary Robertson, some airhead who has written for the Scotsman and the P and J, and Tom Gordon, the Unionist political editor of the Sunday Herald, who, to be fair, has never hidden his contempt for those in favour of self-determination.

      Incidentally, those who grab at each crumb the Sunday Herald throws in our direction are going to get the shock of their lives when the paper concludes, a week before the referendum, that having carefully weighed the arguments they’ve decided now is not the time for a Yes vote..

    38. kininvie says:

      @Rev

      Better Together haven’t actually done any work themselves. This infographic appears alongside the latest in the series of Westminster briefing papers. So it comes with the full weight of HM Treasury behind it, not to mention the Cabinet Office, FCO, etc…..

      https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/scotland-analysis-eu-and-international-issues

      Which naturally makes it unassailable and totally accurate! 🙂

    39. bjsalba says:

      @Rev. Stuart Campbell
      @kendomacaroonbar

      “Have the BT crowd actually received confirmation from the EU that an independent Scotland would have to pay more, or is this just an assertion?”

      To get a confirmation, the question has to be asked in the first place. I’d say the odds of that are about a million to one against.

    40. Molly says:

      sorry if this has been posted already just catching up. I see Ruthie according to the Herald ‘is at the centre of a potentially damaging Holyrood leak’.

      Apparantly she quoted from a submission not yet seen by the Commitees Convenor or 6 other members. Although ‘Conservative press officers had distributed it to the media. ( nice to see Eddie Barnes has a new job) .

      ‘She quoted from a submission to the European and external Relations Committee by Jean Claude Piris ( former legal Council of the European Council) which said the SNP plan ( join the EU in 18 months ) is unlawful.

      The Conservatives have refused to reveal the source of the info.( mm who could that be?)

      Christina Mckelvie ( SNP Convenor) accused RD of ‘disresprect’ and said “I’m not happy evidence I hadn’t even read was being cited”.

      Monsieur Piris appears unavailable , funny that.

    41. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Training Day
      Have you actually read today’s Sunday Herald?
      Very far from crumbs, particularly the Jim and Margaret Cuthbert double page spread – and they made a commitment several years ago on the independence issue which I’m sure they will keep – unless there is an editorial execution

    42. HandandShrimp says:

      There are no papers whose editorial position supports independence and they will make that clear on voting day. We need to be prepared and to prepare the voters for this. The papers are the not the force they once were. Social media has more sway and it is little surprise that is social media that increasingly sets the pace for news stories.

      In the three months prior to the vote the BBC are gong to have to clean up its act. At that point it has to be impartial by law. That is when we are going to start seeing the No side moaning the face off everyone who will listen because they no longer have it all their own way.

    43. Ivan McKee says:

      The UK rebate is in place to compensate the UK for the fact that France has a much bigger agricultural sector than the UK and therefore receives much more from the EU Agricultural funds. France receives Eur 8.4bn from the CAP compared to the UK which receives only Eur 3.4bn. The UK rebate of Eur 3.8bn (of which France contributes Eur 1bn) is to redress that imbalance. According to GERS Scotland receives about £800m (Eur 1bn) of the UKs CAP funds.

      2012 Net contributions from France and the UK are as follows (taking into account all money received from Agricultural, Structural and other funds and the UK rebate):

      France Eur 8.3bn (0.4% of GNI)
      UK Eur 7.4bn (0.39% of GNI)

      EU contributions are based on GNI, Gross National Income.

      The funny thing is that an independent Scotland would probably have to pay a bit more to the EU based on our higher GNI (about 14% higher per capita than the rUK). EU funding principles are based on a nations wealth, so rich countries like Scotland would pay a bit more than their poorer neighbours, like rUK. The numbers though are small compared to the wealth transfer that takes place on an annual basis at the moment from Scotland to Westminster.

    44. CameronB says:

      Re. ‘Pooling and Sharing’. It appears that even this latest approach is not new. Searching on three different search engines, the returns are dominated by articles regarding the EU Defense Agency’s latest strategy for sharing defense costs across the EU.

      “The September 2010 meeting of European defence ministers in Ghent provided a crucial impetus to European defence cooperation under the rubric of Pooling & Sharing. The EDA was mandated to develop the concept and to bring forward the relevant projects. At the March 2012 Steering Board meeting, the Agency’s successes thus far were recognized, and it was tasked to develop Pooling & Sharing further.”

      http://www.eda.europa.eu/aboutus/whatwedo/pooling-and-sharing

      http://centreforeuropeanreform.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11
      /governments-need-incentives-to-pool-and.html

      http://www.linkedin.com/company/centre-for-european-reform

    45. Croompenstein says:

      Is Ruth Davidson a thunderbird ? I swear I can see the strings whenever I watch FMQs

    46. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

      Incoming rUK on course to extinguishing its last vestiges of social democracy – albeit always rather flimsy, anyway – and do a variation of the Wermacht Republic? UKIP’s, and certain Tories’, agenda?

    47. gordoz says:

      @Training Day

      Oh and they had to wheel on Dr Mephisto their pet ‘psephologist’ (oh yeah he’s always on cuase he comes free of charge see / paid for by funding from UK state gov)

      University of WoS BBC study is a belter on NNS

    48. Ivan McKee says:

      Here’s the link to the EU data set.

      http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/interactive/index_en.cfm

      Any before anyone asks the reason that France contributes more in cash terms to the EU than the UK is because the French economy (despite all its problems) actually has a GNI 9% larger than the UK.

    49. Croompenstein says:

      When we win this we will need to set up a truth and reconciliation commission to get all these lying scumbags to explain themselves, mind you the list is endless !

    50. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Brian Powell (12.36) –

      Davidson’s clearly been giving this some thought, and no wonder – didn’t he promise to leave Scotland forever if we vote Yes? He must be working out various escape routes in his heid.

      A modest proposal – when we do vote Yes, we can put him a barrel with some oatcakes and three litres of Scrumpy, then officially launch him at Greenock.

    51. FlimFlamMan says:

      Perhaps the people running the BT campaign really do believe Yes supporters are anti-English; why else use England that way?

      You could try pointing them at the thread here where I appeared, declared my Englishness, and then set about telling you you’re wrong about some important economics. Surely that would have triggered some of the festering hatred of England that drives the independence campaign. Unless it’s not true.

      The latest Opinium/Observer poll suggests 52% of the British public aged over 18 would vote to leave the EU tomorrow, while 34% would vote to stay, representing a small increase since last November when 50% said they would vote to leave.

      I know a few people who are seriously considering moving — and not just from England; America too — in the hope of a yes vote, and if that 52% keeps growing the number of movers will likely grow as well.

      Perhaps the Yes campaign should start funding UKIP south of the border; if rich Londoners and Cotswold oligarchs can fund BT, then why not?

      Just kidding… mostly.

    52. msean says:

      Would the £3.1b rebate be £3.1b without scotland?

    53. CameronB says:

      Meant to say feudalism was also a system of ‘pooling and sharing’ resources, based around a military strategy to overcome the poor transportation of the time.

      The more things change……

    54. gordoz says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Davidson along with other worthy proudscot candidates – build it into the ‘Bogston Tea Party’

      Would the barrels ahve to be seaworthy ?

    55. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

      Apologies, I meant Wiemar, but, on reflection, this Freudian slip may not be too far off the mark if not full blooded enough given the historical connections between the UK elites and their mouthpieces to the Reich that rose out of the ashes of the former.

      Are certain folk, even now, being fitted out for uniforms?

    56. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Better Together haven’t actually done any work themselves. This infographic appears alongside the latest in the series of Westminster briefing papers. So it comes with the full weight of HM Treasury behind it, not to mention the Cabinet Office, FCO, etc…..”

      Aye, I know. I was counting them as part of “the BT crowd” 😀

    57. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Ian Brotherhood and Gordoz

      We could launch the barrel from the Govan Shipbuilders slipway and invite Betty to launch the former MP carrier?

      I name this shit, Westminster No More, may God etc

    58. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      If an Independent Scotland has to pay a bit more, surely that would be because we’d be a wealthier nation than the rUK?

      As Scotland would be a net contributor, the EU would bend over backwards to have us as a member. Considering they’re existence is to attempt to recruit every european country, even the net recipients.

    59. Les Wilson says:

      Croompenstein says

      I agree with your comment,but have one question,why wait?

    60. Training Day says:

      @Dave

      Nope, I haven’t read today’s Sunday Herald. I don’t buy any MSM papers. I am mindful of Tom Gordon’s snide remarks about marchers on the 2012 rally and the Herald’s failure to report the first WoS poll though.

      Seems to me the Sunday Herald has hit upon a tack to marginally improve its low readership by appearing to be at least open to the idea of self-determination. As others have said above though, no one should be in any doubt where the allegiances of our foreign (sorry to sound like a BT spokesperson but foreign is the right word to use) owned media lie.

    61. Ken MacColl says:

      I find it hard to reconcile the different approach to the referendum issue of the Herald and the Sunday Herald. The SH is much more evenhanded. I stopped buying newspapers more than a year ago -a huge sacrifice on my part- but signed up for an online Herald deal and regret it already. Although fairer than any other coverage the lack of investigative or old time spadework is really depressing
      Last week some really nasty articles, reminiscent of the worst excesses of the London Evening Standard, appeared in the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph, the Spectator and were replicated in The Guardian -you can see how desperate the case becomes when you see the alliances that are being formed. One might have hoped that this poison would be analysed, or at least reported, by our Scottish media, in print or broadcast but of course it was ignored whether by ineptitude or design we will never know.

      I watched the Politics Show on BBC TV today but it was the usual bland non event with the swithering dithering Prof Curtice failing to state anything other than the bleeding obvious and the hostile opinions of Tom Gordon and Lyndsay McIntosh, labelled as a contributor to the Scotsman and P&J but at least until recently a “Scottish Political Editor” of the tartan edition of The Times and a constant critic of the First Minister.

      The regular feature “Scottish Politics in 60 seconds” is a fair indicator of the superficial approach of the people at Atlantic Quay. I take little consolation that, as I approach my 75th birthday, I have given my last licence fee to the BBC and even regret that am denied the possibility of withholding any future levies.

    62. Croompenstein says:

      Chairchoob is completely shitting himself because a yes vote means he is unemployed and by default becomes a benefits scrounger. Scotland will neither want or need this waste of space so he can stay in Englandshire where he would be considered an immigrant benefits scrounger, no wonder he is shitting it !

    63. john king says:

      Buckie Braes says
      “‘That’s the council tax paid, and the gas bill’s in. How much have we spent on food this month? The kids need new trainers…and oh God, nearly forgot – our EU membership!’

      you should be like me and set up a direct debit you get one months EU membership free and you dont need to worry if its paid or not, oh an you get a free magazine 🙂

    64. turnip_ghost says:

      A very simple question should be being asked by everybody on the Yes side in response to this.

      “How much of the rebate is spent in Scotland, every year?”

    65. Bill McLean says:

      I know the temptation is strong but I really wish that all those longing for Independence for Scotland would stop giving the MSM support by commenting! Their revenue would drop off and their unionist commenters would be talking to themselves! I occasionally look at an archived Herald and see that the vast majority of comments are from independence supporters – imagine the look on their faces if they saw only the very few comments from those who talk to themselves?

    66. ronnie anderson says:

      EU rebatat,s.We already had a example of UK gov shareing,
      £3 Million,s worth lost to Scottish Farmer,s of EU rebate.

      !st part of that graph,other member state,s in UK.

      SCOTLAND IS NOT A STATE, ITS A COUNTRY.

      The only state in question here, is the STATE of BT /

      WESSTMINSTER GOV.noo that is a terrible state tae be in.

    67. john king says:

      “Is Ruth Davidson a thunderbird ? I swear I can see the strings whenever I watch FMQs”

      If she is she sure as hell aint Lady Pennelope,
      now Darling he certainly is 🙂

    68. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood,We need a vid up,we re leaeving the UK

      okey dokey.

    69. Ian Kirkwood says:

      O/T cannot get my account open on Newsnet to comment on their great article on the broadcasters bias. Did submit a comment on the article on the Herald website with a link but it was not published and indeed all my earlier comments from today disappeared for an hour. All back now except one. Noticed too that another comment referring to the above has also now been removed.
      Interesting that the Herald is reacting in such a way to an alarming, if not unexpected, revelation about the MSM treatment of the debate so far.

    70. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Gordoz –

      ‘Would the barrels have to be seaworthy?’

      No –

      http://www.modernmedicaldictionary.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/man_in_barrel-wearing-barrel.jpg

    71. Ivan McKee says:

      @msean

      The rebate is the rebate for the whole UK.

      The other interesting part about this whole issue about Scotland being in/out of the EU come 2016 is to do with budgets.

      The EU countries have just gone through the whole painful process of negotiating budgets for the period 2014-2020. Who puts what in and who gets what out.

      If Scotland suddenly became a non member in March 2016 then who is going to pick up our share of the tab ?

      By default rUK would be liable (as they are the continuing state, same story as with the debt issue last week), but you can bet they wouldn’t be too happy having to pay an extra approx. 10% for a Scotland when they aren’t collecting our tax revenues anymore.

      So if they put that back on the table at the EU who else is going to pick up the difference ? Germany / France etc aint going to be too happy going back to their respective parliaments and asking for increased contributions. And Poland etc have already figured out what they are spending their structural funds etc on (nice ring-road being built around Warsaw as we speak).

      So there is actually quite an incentive for everyone to bend over backwards to keep Scotland in the EU on current terms at least until the negotiations for the 2021 -2026 period starts in a few years. Not just because of the financial implications, but also because no-one will want to re-open the can of worms that is EU budget negotiations – especially with rUK about to go through an in/out referendum where contributions will be pushed centre-stage by UKIP etc.

      I’d like to think someone cleverer than me had thought all this through years ago… its hard not to come to the conclusion that someone in the SG understands the implications of how this will play out in reality very well.

    72. ronnie anderson says:

      @ REV, FFek saky, ah wiz writing on a memo pad on ma knee,

      reading the post,s,12.36 ( take a wild stab )ah stabed

      masel wi a sherp pinthel,Rev since you in Bath would you

      kindly phone for a perambulator, naw dinna bother a,ll

      phone Scottish Ambulance service.

    73. liz says:

      I’m not on twitter but I do read the Revs twitter feed.

      Re The Sunday Herald and whether or not to buy it – a lady posted a comment about a FOI request confirming the Russian involvement in the Independence referendum and someone asked her to provide proof for this or it would be assumed she was making it up –

      I mentioned the Herald don’t allow live links but the info could be found on National Collective – and the whole thread was instantly deleted.

    74. Ian Kirkwood says:

      Freedom of speech?

    75. gordoz says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      They look f’n perfect for the shower to be launched.

    76. gordoz says:

      @Bugger the Panda & Ian brotherhood

      ‘I name this shit’ – seriously funny when considering the individuals.

    77. Embradon says:

      I seem to recall reading somewhere, long ago, that the rebate was negotiated against condidtions that UK would have
      a) reduced entitlement to Regional Development Funding and,
      b)restricted agricultural subsidy under CAP opt-outs.
      Can any readers, more EU and search engine savy than I, find evidence?
      If it were the case, some regions such as N England and SW Scotland would lose out to the former and predominantly agricultural areas (like much of Scotland) to the latter Such redistributive EU objectives were and are abhorrent to the Tories’ money grabbing paymasters.
      Thatcher was thus able to return from Europe with a piece of paper bearing the word “Rebate” to appease her Mail reading Eurosceptic support, having negotiated a deal which was broadly neutral and therefore reasonably easily achievable.
      Surely Westminster would never allow such a thing?
      (Sorry Rev, I accidentaly posted this elsewhere under the wrong thread)

    78. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Croompenstein, Thunderburd, Wee Ruthie must be a spethial

      puppet,ave never seen wan wi a buttplug. Let it rip Ruthie.

      Open a winda fur feks sake,coat,s oon bit a cany leave the

      house,I, jist lay doon in a darkened room.

    79. Les Wilson says:

      I have,a few times,asked what would happen in negotiations with rUK in the case of under spends,ie.money that Scotland SHOULD have got but did not. Example, as in defense. We have consistent under spends year on year.
      Money that SHOULD have been spent on the defense of Scotland but was never employed for that.I find it odd that no one has commented, so far.

      There will be other areas of under spends I am sure.So can anyone tell me, that is in fact,a debt owed to us,one that should be compiled and taken against our share of UK debt?
      If not, explain why not please.

    80. Andy-B says:

      O/T Rev. my apologises.

      A surprisingly good piece on pro-independence, from Jim Sillars in the Scottish Sunday Mail.

      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nationalist-heavyweight-jim-sillars-issues-3037667

    81. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “(Sorry Rev, I accidentaly posted this elsewhere under the wrong thread)”

      And yet even with two tries you couldn’t manage to PUT ANY SODDING PARAGRAPH BREAKS IN IT.

    82. Clootie says:

      So the bottom line of this scare story is that we will subsidise Westminster less than we do now !

      The fact that we will represent ourselves on fishing, farming, crofting etc will have no advantages…?

      We need Westminster/Whitehall to look after our best interests. This sounds like the same story ALL the EX commonwealth countries received. Look at the queue of those nations begging to get back under London rule.

    83. heedtracker says:

      The EU government in Brussels has got to start explaining the formal position for Scotland after a YES win. Last week, Westminster UK gov had to tell the bond markets that sterling will be Scotland’s currency and the EU are equally duty bound to do exactly the same.

      Its just not good enough allowing BetterTogther/BBC to belch out this cringing nonsense. If Brussels thinks it has no obligation to give Scotland’s legal post indy EU status. at the very least they need to consider the status of all mainland EU citizens that have made Scotland their home.

      So that’s your legal and moral obligation to Scotland Europe. Get your finger out and tell us straight.

    84. Morag says:

      A surprisingly good piece on pro-independence, from Jim Sillars in the Scottish Sunday Mail.

      “Alex is mortal and Scotland is immortal.”

      I am SO stealing that. It’s a keeper.

    85. Embradon says:

      And yet even with two tries you couldn’t manage to PUT ANY SODDING PARAGRAPH BREAKS IN IT

      Oops – I musta mis-read the instructions. I will take a hundred lines of html practice (with breaks) and read the rules again

    86. CameronB says:

      heedtracker
      This is the response I and others have received;

      Dear Mr Brodie,

      Thank you for your message.

      The European Commission cannot speculate on future events.

      Please kindly note that according to primary EU law (Article 20 Treaty on the Functioning of the EU) every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall automatically be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union is additional to and does not replace national citizenship. Citizenship of the Union thus does not exist independently from citizenship of a State that is an EU Member State.

      We hope you find this information useful. Please contact us again if you have other questions.

      With kind regards,
      EUROPE DIRECT Contact Centre
      http://europa.eu – your shortcut to the EU!
      European Year of Citizens 2013
      It’s about Europe, it’s about you – Join the debate!
      http://europa.eu/citizens-2013/
      Disclaimer
      Please note that the information provided by EUROPE DIRECT is not legally binding.

      ———————————————————–

      I read this as the EU falling back on a legal position so as not to upset Westminster.

      Does the EU agree with Whitehall’s opinion that Scotland was extinguished in 1707? If not, then although Scotland is not a member state, it think it unlikely that the EU would seek to exclude a nation state which they recognise and which has been contributing to the European project since 1973.

    87. heedtracker says:

      Hi CameronB. That’s interesting. If you’re a citizen of a member state your an EU citizen but otherwise…

      So in reality, voting YES means voting to leave the EU. Hope UKIPScotlandshire are aware of this!

    88. CameronB says:

      heedtracker
      From my punter’s perspective, a Yes vote removes us from an existing member state (the UK).

      However, unless the EU agrees that Scotland was extinguished in 1707, Scotland is a non-member state that has been accounted for in EU budgets and respected EU legislation for 40 years. I doubt the EU’s credibility as a democratic institution would remain undamaged if it were to exclude Scotland.

      But that might be debatable. 🙂

    89. CameronB says:

      Edit: Scotland is a non-member NATION

    90. CameronB says:

      Thought I’d ask the Scottish Law Society.

      Dear Sir/Madam,

      As a Scot living in Scotland, I intend voting in September’s independence referendum. I would like to be able to make an informed choice when the time comes, and hope that you may be able to help me do so.

      Specifically, I would be keen to find out if the Scottish Law Society has an opinion on whether Scotland was extinguished by the 1707 Act of Union. As the body representing Scots Law, I hope you will be able to advise me of the Society’s position.

      Your’s sincerely

    91. Ken500 says:

      If anyone believes the Unionist figures, they must be useless. The nonsense they publish is unbelievable.

      Never has there been more lying, thieving, useless, troughing selfish people, than the Unionists in Westminster. They borrow, spend, and waste Public money like confetti. Never has there been such a shower, of lazy, mean, greedy lying bunch of hypocrites. They are a complete disaster.

    92. WallaceBruce says:

      Would it not be likely that the rUK would also have to renegotiate its EU contribution and the rebate after independence for Scotland?

    93. JLT says:

      HandandShrimp says:

      Better Together simultaneously argue that we will be in and out of the EU. I think it is a Project Fear uncertainty thing.

      Mate …your not wrong there. They are tying themselves into such knots, that Sturgeon, Jenkins and Co must have enough ammo to just hit them with simple questions each time they spout some drivel …just as Carmichael did last week!

      ‘If Scotland goes independent, the Scottish Fishing Fleet will be annihilated’ says the Bruiser.

      ‘And how will that be, since according to you and your pals, we will be out of the EU, and no fishing vessels from the EU will be allowed into Scottish Waters? So …wait …does that mean we will be in the EU, big man?’ replies the Scottish common person.

      ‘Errrrr…..ummmm’ replies the Bruiser.

      Can’t wait for the debates to begin. Thought Sturgeon destroyed Carmichael the last time. He must be praying that somehow …he will be replaced by some other numpty before it happens! Roll out the next Liberal!

    94. Jamie Arriere says:

      Well, as Ian Dury used to say, “There aint half been some clever bastards” – it’s a safe bet to say that none of them are in Better Together.

      Einstein couldn’t be classed as witless
      But I’m sure that Blair McDougall is…

    95. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Jamie Arriere –

      Nice one.

      Dury was such a brilliant wordsmith. One of his best, written when he knew he was dying, was ‘The Passing Show’:

      Our laughter rang around the world
      When we were happy boys and girls.
      As now we balk and hesitate
      Encumbrance comes to those who wait.

      But when we’re torn from mortal coil
      We leave behind a counterfoil.
      It’s what we did, and who we knew
      And that’s what makes this story true.

    96. Ken500 says:

      Cut out the middlemen. Save 20% to be spent on the poorer, the most vulnerable, invest in jobs and employment, less benefits. Scotland is a wealthy country. Not living up to it’s full potential.

      Scotland could cut Trident/redundant weaponry (illegal war) £1.5Billion, put a tax on cheap ‘loss leading’ cheap alcohol, save £1.5Billion, in social costs etc. Cut tax evasion by (foreign) multinationals £1.5Billion++. Cut bureaucracy Scottish Office/HoL, bring administration/jobs back to Scotland – £1.5Billion.

      = £6Billion a year. More than 12 x the EU contribution.

      EU contribution is a neutral payment. It comes back in CAP & Grants etc.

    97. fairiefromtheearth says:

      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign, all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. (Jonathan Swift)

    98. morgan mc says:

      Get out the EU return to EFTA.Keep your money. Vote Scottish Democratic Alliance.



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