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Kezia Dugdale Fact Check, Part 681

Posted on May 08, 2017 by

This one definitely looks dodgy.

We, um… we don’t think they DID show that, Kez.

We seem to recall a turn away from SOMEONE, but we’re sure it wasn’t the SNP.

Ah yes, now we remember.


*Actual SNP vote now confirmed at 610,454 – an increase of 21% from 2012. The Labour vote was down by 22%, dropping from 488,703 to 380,957.

Previous Kezia Dugdale Fact Checks:
[1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]

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  1. 08 05 17 12:56

    Kezia Dugdale Fact Check, Part 681 | speymouth

417 to “Kezia Dugdale Fact Check, Part 681”

  1. Thepnr says:

    As the saying goes you have to be cruel to be kind.

    I think Kezia will get the message on June 8th and the Rev won’t need to torment her anymore.

  2. Would it be fair to say that Kezia is the ultimate spin doctor of fake news.

  3. bobajock says:

    Odd how some people in Wangland (in my office) think Ruth Davidson won in Scotland and is the new FM (due to the airtime she is getting).

    but Kez? Who!

  4. Welsh Sion says:

    A linguist writes.

    “The council elections showed people are turning away from the SNP, because they fed up with the Nationalists’ attempt to force another divisive referendum,” she will say.

    Dear Kezia Dudfail,

    I fed up with you.

    (Do you take your soundbites from LOL Catz now?)

    Yours, aye

  5. xaracen says:

    NS to RD+KD et al, message received and understood, LOL, LOL, LOL! 😀

  6. Swami Backverandah says:

    I can’t work out if Ian Murray will be a sacrificial lamb, or just toast.

  7. geeo says:

    So for clarity…

    SNP Vote 2017 INCREASES but we lose 2 councils !!

    Just like 2016…VOTE goes UP majority lost…!!

    Madness !

  8. call me dave says:

    The reality check after the stour settles tells us the SNP did better than it looked on Friday afternoon and still today (Monday), after they have churned the numbers through their calculator, ‘Scottish’ Labour are still squeaking the lies from their bunker.

    But hey! Only when Jackie Bird actually gets Glen Campbell to say it on Auntie’s kilted tv news will the population as a whole be told the truth.

    Darn Sarf….tumble weed!

  9. galamcennalath says:

    They spin good things as bad, they spin bad things as absolutely awful. Not to say the election was bad. The SNP have done just fine IMO, held their position.

    No overall figure of votes across Scotland, but some regions appearing. Percentages and changes, three examples so far ….


    SNP 40.96 +8.39
    Labour 30.20 -16.52
    Conservative 14.59 +8.65
    Scottish Green 8.70 +3.15
    Liberal Democrats 2.92 -0.01


    SNP 34.7 +3.4
    Conservative 23.3 +13.6
    Labour 18.0 -11.7
    Liberal Democrats 13.9 -1.2
    Scottish Green 2.3 -0.2


    SNP 31.2 -13.2
    Conservative 33.9 +16.1
    Liberal Democrats 4.6 -1.2
    Labour 5.4. -2.0

    In some places the Independents soak up a lot so hiding party performances.

    I think there will be differences East-West and rural-city.

    Where there was a big Labour vote, SNP grabbed some so not a simple Unionists moving to Tory. Where there wasn’t a strong Labour vote, the Tories appear to take SNP votes however this might be differential turn out.

    Murrell says 105k gain. However, the turnout many be up by 10%, so all figures will be up. Relative change is more important.

  10. Peter Mirtitsch says:

    Would be a better heading if you changed it to “Fact Hunt”…lol

  11. Arbroath1320 says:

    In fairness I feel so sorry for her parents.

    Imagine being teachers and ending up with a child that is as pathetically stupid and ignorant of FACTS as what she is. She not only is an embarrassment to her parents but to the whole Scottish education system.

    Surely any NORMAL child born to parents who are teachers/lecturers etc would actually grow up with, at the very least, quite a good grasp of intelligent thinking. Sadly in Dugdale’s case this is definitely NOT the case!

    Do not panic though folks … we have another 9 or 10 years of her profound thoughtful thinking to *ahem* endure.

  12. Me Bungo Pony says:

    It really is time that Labour realised that the SNP and Independence are not the real enemies of the Scottish people. It is the hard right Tory-UKIP hybrid monster that threatens to send us back to the grim days of inequality, injustice and poverty they seem to believe were the “good old days”. Of course, being extremely wealthy, they were for them.

    Labour has taken its eye off the ball in Scotland. Its time for them to stop seeing the SNP through knee-jerk, SNP-bad glasses and work with them to highlight just how evil the Tories are. They need to look to Scotland’s best interests and not their Party’s.

  13. Bob Mack says:

    Dugdale is neither stupid nor dumb. She lies wilfully without regret or embarrassment. Remember this woman sanctioned Orange militants to stand for her party. Do you honestly believe she does not know the implications of that move ?.

    As far as the SNP are concerned she is a bonus. As far as I am concerned she is a devious little horror without scruples or morality.

  14. Macart says:

    Send a message they said. Peak SNP they said. Team up and trust us they said.

    *?!@$% Tories!

  15. Phil Robertson says:

    Interesting that you add to the original item by making the comparison between now and 2012.

    So let’s follow that through. The SNP results show a modest gain (1-2%) in the number of seats won in 2012. At that time, polls suggested that percentage support for independence was chugging along in the mid-thirties.

    If things are now similar to 2012, that would indeed suggest a fall from, say, the 2014 figure for support for independence.

    Using 2012 as a comparison for strength of opinions on a second referendum is, of course, a complete nonsense.

  16. call me dave says:

    Some ramifications of the local election vote: From the Herald.

    THE SNP is expected take control of the body representing Scotland’s councils for the first time, a move predicted to create very public tensions over cuts with Scottish Government party colleagues.

    The Herald understands that the four authorities which split from Cosla several years ago will rejoin the organisation within the coming weeks, with local government again represented by a single body.

    Insiders and experts in local government anticipate the SNP will take on the presidency of Cosla, the only time in the organisation’s 42-year history the post will not be held by a Labour politician.
    Public tensions indeed. Well they would say that wouldn’t they.

    Maybe some labour folk worried that the wrong filing cabinet will be opened in the cooncil offices in red square and a few old bones might be found.

  17. AndyH says:

    How could an extra 100000 votes equate to a modest 1-2% rise?

    Are you the guy who does the ‘Notional’ calculations for dear old Auntie?

  18. John Gibson says:

    “Dugdale is neither stupid nor dumb. She lies wilfully without regret or embarrassment. Remember this woman sanctioned Orange militants to stand for her party. Do you honestly believe she does not know the implications of that move ?.

    As far as the SNP are concerned she is a bonus. As far as I am concerned she is a devious little horror without scruples or morality.”

    Exactly this. She’s simply a unionist, Labour/Tory/Lib distinctions don’t apply when the issue is the constitution.

  19. annie says:

    I think whoever is writing Kezia’s speeches is deliberately trying to make her look like a fool or a liar.

  20. Roboscot says:

    Post-truth politics.

  21. call me dave says:

    TV debates:

  22. Free Scotland says:

    “Kezia Dugdale

    [will claim today voters are “turning away” from the SNP]
    [plans to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence.]”

    Oh, right. So, Kezia Dugdale plans to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence?

  23. Peter says:

    Here in east renfrewshire the increase in the SNP vote from 2012 is almost exactly the same figure as the decrease in the labour vote.
    Curious that

  24. Arbroath1320 says:

    If things are now similar to 2012, that would indeed suggest a fall from, say, the 2014 figure for support for independence.

    Except of course as everyone knows, except you apparently, that the current state of play for the independence vote, when it comes along in 2018/2019, is STARTING OFF at around 45 – 50%.

    Now I’m no mathematician, however, if independence support in 2014 started off at low 20’s and ended up at 45% then logic says starting off at 45% could more than likely end up with independence support ending up with around 65%.

  25. Robert Peffers says:

    @Phil Robertson says: 8 May, 2017 at 12:11 pm:

    … Using 2012 as a comparison for strength of opinions on a second referendum is, of course, a complete nonsense.”

    Indeed it is, Phil. Which is the very simple reason that no one on the Yes to Independence side was making that the reason for voting in an election for councillors to run our Scottish local councils.

    I’ll type it out for you:-

    It was NOT a referendum on having a referendum.

    It was not to decide if the voters were for, or against, independence for the Kingdom of Scotland from the now laughably titled United Kingdom.

    It was NOT to chose MSPs.

    It was NOT to choose MPs.

    It was NOT to choose MEPs.

    It was NOT a gauge of support for Independence.


    So which parties were claiming it as a referendum on holding referendums?

    Which particular party stuffed leaflets through Scottish letterboxes that had not a single mention of local issues?

    The point being that if you attempt to hijack a local council election for your own different agenda then you can have no complaints if the main body of the electorate ignore your idiocy and vote for what the election is all about.

  26. Effijy says:

    Agreed Ms Duffail should continue with the same tactics that Labour have employed for the last 10 years, collapsing for each 1 of the last 10 years, and bringing them closer to extinction.

    She does good predictions as at the last general election, when
    Deputy Leader, she assured us that Fake Scottish Labour Party would hold on to their 41 seats and win an additional 2 more.

    It seems that she was hearing this at the doorstep?

    As you will well know, they lost 40 of the 41 seats and gained nothing but a Bad reputation.

    PS Kez, Try waiting until the door is opened next time.
    I think you might be listening to the BBC thru the letter box.

  27. Uilleam_beag says:

    The figures I’ve seen put the turnout up about 7 point to 46%. Assuming there’s not much change to the size of the electoral roll, that’s an increase of around 18.4%, so the SNP vote *appears* to have outpaced the increase in turnout.

  28. winifred McCartney says:

    Pityful listening to john beattie and the bbc trying to justify the unjusifiable with their notional/corrupting figures of course only applying to snp.

    Only in Scotland did ‘tories win’ with less votes than Thatcher but in England labour with more votes is losing heavily.

    BBC – make it up as you go along as long as it is snp baaad.

  29. Free Scotland says:

    “The Scottish Labour leader will user her party’s campaign launch in Rutherglen to claim …”

    … showed people are turning away from the SNP, because they fed up with …

    Question for the Press and Journal: Are you too skint to use proofreaders?

  30. galamcennalath says:

    Me Bungo Pony says:

    It really is time that Labour realised that the SNP and Independence are not the real enemies of the Scottish people. It is the hard right Tory-UKIP hybrid monster


    Labour have a number of problems IMO, not least they ….

    – are too keen on troughing where a HoL meal ticket for life awaits the keenest

    – don’t keep deep blue water between themselves and the Tories

    – are too into party politics, they fail to engage in more important issues

    – still believe they can win soon UK wide, so the UK holds hope

    … all are on a shoggly peg. Hopefully at least some of their politicians will see that soon. They would have a future if they always put Scotland first and went for full attack on the real enemy, the Tories. They don’t even need to be full on for Indy, just agnostic and accept the Scots people have the right to choose.

    My understanding is that some Catalan parties are pro Indy, while others are pro referendum but on the fence for Indy. They are all pro Catalunya. There is a precedent.

  31. One_Scot says:

    I am beginning to understand that unionist politicians just don’t live in the real world.

  32. Ann says:

    402 votes got the Tories a seat in the Western Isles!!!!!!!!

  33. jfngw says:


    BBC Lunchtime news headlines ‘how to spot fake news’. One of the entries was ‘check the url’. I always do, if it starts then I make sure I check any ‘facts’ on this site elsewhere.

  34. John Walsh says:

    Kezie is so delusional it hurts. We can all see the destruction of Slab but they carry on regardless. The toxic spin of Roden and Harris the utter hatred of all things SNP have blinded any political witts they had. In a final twist of their death throws they will blame the SNP for Corbyn and McDonalds resegnations. Kezie’s own fate is already sealed with Anus like some vulture waiting to feast on her political corpse . It is a binary choice now Indy SNP and Greens versus Ruthless Roofs British no surrender party.

  35. galamcennalath says:

    Phil Robertson says:

    …. strength of opinions on a second referendum …

    Scotland had the second referendum debate in the 2016 election and parties who proposed it would be necessary with changing circumstances won a majority.

    Circumstances may be about to change utterly and completely.

    The Scottish Parliament can call ScotRef in response and has exercised its mandate to prepare the ground.

    That debate has gone, as far as Scotland is concerned.

    The ball is now in May’s court. If she delivers membership of the single market then there will be no ScotRef. Otherwise it will follow prior to Brexit.

    ‘Strength of opinions’ and mandate arguments are now long past.

  36. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is why I hate Scottish politics, which has been so poisoned by chauvinistic nationalist ideology, that little space remains for truth. Love and hope have no future in such an ideologically defined environment.

    The only things binding contemporary Britain together is cultural bigotry and ignorance of the truth. These BLiS___s zombies are an absolute disgrace.

    @ Kez
    Show some social responsibility you Muppet!

  37. Desimond says:

    So Kez is going to James Kellys stomping ground ( where he got well stompled) to relay an incorrect message to no-one with any interest whatsoever. Rutherglen doesn’t deserve that!

    No doubt it will get full Press attention and exposure as if Kez and her claims matter to anyone bar Jackie Bird and cohorts.

    Genereal Election Strategy lead James Kelly’s car crash showing on Scottish Politics yesterday and now Kez with this today shows that anyone still holding out for Labour to wake up and smell the coffee must finally see its a lost cause and move their allegiances elsewhere.

    In the next 3 months I look forward to someone asking “Oh when did Anas Sarwar end up yon 3rd Party leader?”

  38. Davosa says:

    Will Kez Dugbrain not get her jotters round about 9/10 June anyway ? She appears to have added total delusion to her other ermm… psychiatric failings.

  39. Valerie says:

    @call me dave

    That’s quite significant. The 4 idiot councils that left Cosla, Glasgow being one, simply sat out in the cold in protest, drinking tea among themselves. The SG can ONLY negotiate with Coslas, as the constitutional body representing the 32 councils.

    I think there are some significant bits of activity in the council’s that SNP want access to, like council tax, and voting activities, as well as closer look at books in general.

    It’s telling that one slogan SNP used in Glasgow was ‘open the books’ and more transparency. Glasgow being the last Rotten Borough, with North Lanarkshire a close second.

    Good to see.

  40. galamcennalath says:

    Herald claiming to have some overall figures …

    SNP 32.3%
    Con 25.5%
    Lab 20.2%
    Independents 10.5%

    SNP 32.3%
    Con 13.3%
    Lab 31.4%
    Independents 11.8%

    On the face of it, a straight shift Lab to Tory!

    Although area by area, not so simple.

  41. asklair says:

    Westminster will always control the BBC, a positive action is to stop paying the TV licence.

  42. Robert Peffers says:

    The real big news is the item that is not being broadcast from the rooftops or printed in big black banner headlines.

    The one the SNP saw coming but what had not registered on the unionist RADAR.

    COSLA looks likely to come under SNP control and, for the first time ever, be prised out of labour’s very tight controlling grasp.

    The council changes should see those Labour led councils that left COSLA and oppose the Scottish Government are likely to return to COSLA which should then have a far better relationship with Holyrood.

  43. Tackety Beets says:

    I have mentioned before about being self employed, which usually means hard work & long hours.

    Lesson No 2 is NEVER Slag the opposition.
    There are nice ways to show your customer what you offer, what you do that perhalps your opposition do not.

    A few years back I moved a busines to within 100 yards of an opposition and many of our customers question us on this.

    My answer is that our success is based on what we do & how we do it etc etc

    Concentrate on serving our customers to our very best ability …. nothing more nothing less

    Kezia our success will NEVER be based on what our opposition do or fail to do.

    Yes you can see others doing things and change if its could improve, but NEVER slag off the opposition.

    I realised this at 17 years of age and it has stood me in good stead ever since.

    This, IMHO , is where the commercial world & politics cross without doubt.

    Keep up the good work Kezia ….everyone gains except you ! Doh !

  44. Dr Jim says:

    Tim Farron was interviewed earlier today and the interviewer said:You lied to the people before so why should they trust you now: Farron replied: Because we’re telling the truth now…Nuff said on that!

    At least he admitted he’s a liar and as a few have pointed out Iv’e never heard a Unionist not lie, they all do it without a care in the world, because the people they hope to convince with their lies only watch the Telly and don’t check the facts because they really don’t care enough to be bothered as they’re so entrenched in their ideas that the Telly news is telling them the truth

    I mentioned on an earlier thread that Isn’t it ironic the Telly people are telling us to buy newspapers in order to learn how to spot fake news

    I mean really?

  45. jfngw says:

    I see over 27% of the votes were not at polling stations, are these all postal votes?. 27% seems very high (almost 30% in Edinburgh), it would also be interesting to see the spread in these postal votes.

  46. Patrick Roden says:

    I watched Kez in the Daily Record short film interview, and was slightly surprised to hear her say that a vote for Labour was a vote for the country to be ‘run for the benefit of the many not just the few’

    Because this was the exact same slogan that I have heard Theresa May using in several of her interviews.

    Do the Red and Blue Tories just take turns to tell the same lies now?


  47. Neil Cook says:

    I’ve checked all the figures and in conclusion it’s a fact that The Dug has the lowest IQ in Scotland.
    The evidence was never in doubt as she took all the votes under Stv counting formulae as she had all boxes ticked from 1-9!!
    Totally delusional is the Dug

  48. Dan Huil says:

    I believe Independents, so-called, played a more significant role in the north east. My elderly uncle, in Moray, voted 1 & 2 for independents because one is a cousin and the other is an ex-work colleage. I also believe he is not in the minority in voting this way in local elections. My uncle plans to vote for Angus Robertson in June.

  49. HandandShrimp says:

    Poor Kezia has to talk up Labour’s chances because the numbers don’t do that.

    Ruth is pitching her campaign as “let’s stick it to Nicola” (well they are the nasty party).

    Labour voters need to understand that the SNP are in pole position in all the seats even the three they don’t have. Vote SNP and stick it to May and her ghastly cohort of rich, self serving chums who don’t give a toss about the ordinary people of the UK. Vote Tory and you will repent long and hard.

  50. Calum McKay says:

    Kezia say labour are progressive, now labour are in bed with the orange order, enough said!

  51. Artyhetty says:

    The labour party have become an irrelevance, their default existence kept alive by propping up the tories. Well done Labour troughers.

    Now, Kez pet, if on planet zog, by some ridiculous chance, you ever became relevant at the Scottish parliament, would you copycat the last lot and send a few billion £s back to your tory pals in WM, because you ‘can’t find anything to spend it on’.

    No thanks, Labour and their branch in Scotland are a dead, flogged horse. You brought it on yourselves. Tough!

  52. Arbroath1320 says:

    Apologies for O/T here but if anyone was confused about what Feartie McFeartie meant by her nonstop “Strong and Stable” mantra then they should watch this. “Strong and Stable” dissected so even the most dim witted of dim witted dimwits can understand “Strong and Stable.”

  53. jfngw says:

    So Mrs may is up for a TV debate but not with anyone that may expose her. She can guarantee that opposite Corbyn she can control the debate. Running scared of debating with Sturgeon, and who can blame her, she would be exposed as a soundbite fraud.

    Will this be the BBC in their most reverential mode, a bit like the forelock tugging Neil when he interviewed her. You can bet Sturgeon will be given a hard time by the BBC presenter, that’s if she is not cut off mid sentence, the QT system.

  54. Hamish100 says:

    BBC John Beattie show quite a disgrace today. Beattie encouraging the outed Prof from Lancaster who made up the figures over the snp losing seats at the last election. Notionally.the prof seemed to believe that based on polling evidence the snp should have done better so by default in his head they did worse!. He did the calculations — which he said are really guesstimates.
    Did the BBC pay this guy to come up with this? Did he look at the other political parties? If not why? Clearly a BBC Scotland set up job. I wonder who the prof knows as Pacific Quay?

    C’mon Scottish Parliament– call the bbc heid yins in to explain themselves.

  55. yesindyref2 says:

    @ Phil Robertson says: “Using 2012 as a comparison for strength of opinions on a second referendum is, of course, a complete nonsense.

    Jaw drops. Phil Robertson – I agree with you! Welcome to the reality forum 🙂

  56. Robert Graham says:

    Getting better by the day , Apparently its not the conservative party anymore it’s the Tresa May team now , mmm now i wonder where that wee trick came from ? , any ideas Ruth ? .I wonder if thats to disguise something Toxic . Just asking .

  57. crazycat says:

    @ Uilleam_beag at 12.58

    The figures I’ve seen put the turnout up about 7 point to 46%. Assuming there’s not much change to the size of the electoral roll, that’s an increase of around 18.4%, so the SNP vote *appears* to have outpaced the increase in turnout.

    The electoral roll has been enlarged by the addition of those aged 16 and 17. That complicates the calculation, but may not alter your conclusion.

  58. Phil Robertson says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    … Using 2012 as a comparison for strength of opinions on a second referendum is, of course, a complete nonsense.”
    Indeed it is, Phil.

    So who dragged 2012 into the debate? And then presented the figures in a misleading way.

    AndyH says:
    8 May, 2017 at 12:26 pm
    How could an extra 100000 votes equate to a modest 1-2% rise?

    Quite simply. The percentage is roughly flat. The increase in the number of the votes is a reflection of the higher turnout. Simples!

  59. sensibledave says:

    Tackety Beets 1:30 pm

    You wrote: “Lesson No 2 is NEVER Slag the opposition.”

    Haha Taxkety! Maybe you should be lecturing to just about every commeneter on here on Wings! Most find it impossible to write the words Tory, Labour, or Lib Dem without a pejorative adjective and most slag off the opposition in almost every comment!

    Not me though – I always write in a way designed to inform and educate – rather than just being rude. Why oh why can’t everyone else just be as nice as me and you?

  60. bugsbunny says:

    I heard there was a power cut three nights in a row in Glasgow over the weekend. Could this be due to electric shredders doing overtime, destroying all connections between the outgoing council and terrorists, gangsters, orange bigots, drugs etc? I heard Gordon Matheson was partial to taking “coke” in the bag seat of a car.

  61. Dan Huil says:

    Britnats desperately disappointed that their soul-mate Le Pen did not win the French presidency. Ah well, britnats still have support from the orange order.

  62. CameronB Brodie says:

    Have you heard of “symbolic violence”? Well, hostility is a natural response from those who are subjected to it by the likes of the BBC. Now, got a positive case for the Yoonion or are you simply an egotist?

  63. Bill Hume says:

    Quite right sensibledave, why can’t we all be nice. I’ll start. I like you sensibledave, you’re good value for money and much cheaper than paying a licence fee to watch Have I Got News For You, etc.

  64. Thepnr says:

    Just over two weeks ago I posted a copy of an email I sent to the new Italian President of the EU, Mr Antonio Tajani that basically asked if the EU would support the rights of it’s Scottish citizens to remain in the EU despite Brexit and not allow us to be dragged out against our will by the UK.

    It can be read here if interested and was posted at 10:11 pm.

    I didn’t really expect a reply but today I got one which began with this:

    Dear Mr —–,

    The President of the European Parliament, Mr Antonio Tajani, has received your message on the subject of Brexit and Scotland.
    Please rest assured that your message has been read attentively and its contents duly noted.

    The Citizens’ Enquiries Unit of the European Parliament has been asked to reply on his behalf and to thank you for your congratulatory message on his election and for your substantive comments.

    The rest of the email which was quite extensive was composed of information and many links to both UK and EU official positions of the upcoming negotiations.

    These didn’t answer my question of course, since I’ve no doubt it’s a very sensitive topic for the negotiations. Though I do believe it was read by Mr Tajani and at least I feel I got a point across and that he is willing to listen.

    I also get the impression that there are many in the EU that fully support the democratic choice Scotland made by voting 62% to remain in the EU and that they would welcome us as members.

    There are many influential people in the EU that we can lobby on behalf of Independence into getting a commitment from the EU to Scotland being a member state if we became Independent.

    We can all play a part in doing that in the coming months as we work towards Indyref2.

    Make our voice heard, you know it’s right.

  65. Auld highlander says:

    It seem to me as if the bbc has cranked up it’s negativity, oops, I should have said lies.

  66. Ian Murray is also claiming in the daily stranger that the ‘Sturgeon surge’ is over because of SNP’s focus on IndyRef2.

    Obviously that tactic of sending a message to Nicola Sturgeon about indyref2, worked very successfully for labour during the local elections that its going to continue using during the general election.

  67. sinky says:

    So BBC is going to exclude the party with third largest number of MPs from debating head to head with Prime Minister and leader of opposition. Westminster is not a binary choice between May and Corbyn as the SNP MPs proved in the last Parliament.

    This is not acceptable and hope the SNP take BBC to court.

    Were the Lib Dems as third party ever excluded from a leader’s general election TV debate?

    In terms of seats, the Lib Dems should be debating head to head the Greens and UKIP

    Hope SNP make an issue of this during Question Time from Edinburgh on Thursday.. always assuming BBC don’t edit it out.

  68. starlaw says:

    The BBC and others are now in full panic mode. They supported all unionist parties campaign against the SNP and a second Referendum ….. They Lost….The SNP won…END OFF

  69. yesindyref2 says:

    From wiki figures (if accurate and my mental calcs right):

    Turnout 2012 39.6%, 2017 46.9%. Increase = 7.2% points.

    Approx 1,302,000 first preferences in 2012 for the “4” main parties (for some reason the Greens don’t figure), 1,596,000 in 2016 – 294,000 more votes for the 4 parties.

    The SNP increased their vote by 107,000. 84.6% in 2017 were 1st prefs for one of those 4, so the SNP got 36.4% of the “new” votes, which is more than the 32.3% of the vote share.

  70. clan rossy says:


    is just a complete and utter arsehole

  71. bugsbunny says:

    Quite right clan rossy. And we all know what comes out of arseholes.

  72. sensibledave says:

    CameronB 2:45 pm

    You wrote “Now, got a positive case for the Yoonion or are you simply an egotist?”

    Oh Dear Cammie! You have not been paying attention, I am neither for or against the Union – it just is – and will be until it isnt!

    Once again, you make the mistake of thinking those of us that don’t vote for the SNP are “Yoons” – I can’t vote for the SNP and didn’t vote in indyref1. The people that voted against Independence were Scots. You need to try and get that. I will say it again in case you missed it – the only people that have ever voted against Scottish Independence are THE SCOTS!

    In fact, my only involvement, by proxy, is that my then, local MP, voted for by me and lots of other voters in South Oxfordshire, voted at Westminster together with lots of other non scottish MPs for Scotland to have a referendum on Independence. So, I think you can take it that down here in da sarf, we all for democracy.

    Please aim your ire at the majority of Scots.

    Arguably, indyref1 was the direct result of tory voters in England?

  73. Proud Cybernat says:

    Sensible – think you’d better hurry off home.

    Nudge nudge, wink wink.

  74. yesindyref2 says:

    BBC Maths:

    There are 4 more seats in 2017 than in 2012, so the BBC decides that the SNP won 13 of those 4 notional seats in 2012.

  75. Bill Hume says:

    ” Proud Cybernat says:
    8 May, 2017 at 3:31 pm

    Sensible – think you’d better hurry off home.

    Nudge nudge, wink wink.”

    Now, now Proud Cybernat….sensible IS home….this is his home (or as near a home as he has).

    He has all us as his friends (or as near to friendship as he is likely to achieve).
    Poor chap.

  76. Sarah says:

    I have started my series of emails to MSPs asking them to press the Scottish Government to apply to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe [OSCE] for election and media monitoring [by their Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights] during the general election campaign.

    Detail of how this procedure could work are in 8th March 2013.

    I hope if Wingers also write to their MSPs we might get somewhere with tackling the appalling media bias.

  77. sensibledave says:

    Cybie 3.31

    … sorry Cybie, I don’t understand your comment.

    I have a “moronic jock filter” running on my machine, could that be the reason your comments don’t make sense?

  78. Patrick Roden says:

    @ Thepnr

    Great work mate, I agree that it feels like Scotland has a lot of good will in the EU.

  79. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    fngw @ 13:33,

    I was an accredited observer, and I observed validations of the postal votes one day in Glasgow. The individual voter identification forms (NB: NOT the ballots!) are checked against the official registrations, and the details are visible on screens to observers as the decisions on them are taken. Voter details such as date of birth are therefore transiently visible.

    It was my distinct impression that there was a very significant skew in age distribution of postal votes towards the over 65’s.

    Now, some words of caution are necessary. Firstly, that was for two wards only on one particular day. Secondly, it only concerned doubtful validations, so it may be that there would be an age imbalance in those due to shaky handwriting, wobbly positioning, etc. And lastly, of course, there was no way that anyone could determine how this age distribution voted anyway. In the end we can only guess about the degree of relevance of these things.

    Another factor that must be considered is the evident rash of “X” appearing on ballots that were being visibly checked during the count itself. Where there was only a WM-style “X” against a single candidate and no-one else, that was counted as a valid 1st preference. Where there were multiple occurrences of “X”, the vote was void. Those were the (reasonable) rules. There was a second-order version, where voters placed “1” against multiple candidates of one party, then “2” against multiple candidates of another, clearly voting on party lines rather than for individual candidates. These ballots were also voided by the rules.

    This erroneous voter behaviour would therefore have tipped the balance to some extent against parties fielding multiple candidates. So some old biddy, say, voting old-style WM fashion for a single Tory candidate, would have made a successful vote, whereas another errant voter putting multiple crosses against two or three SNP candidates would have failed to make their vote.

    We can possibly get a better feel for how significant an influence that might have been from the rejection stats.

  80. CameronB Brodie says:

    I was wondering as to the source of your interest and involvement in the debate, as you do little to shed light.

    Thank you for clarifying your complete failure to understand the concepts of sovereign nations, union and democratic deficit. Hopefully now it will be clear you do not support universal human rights and are nothing other than a FUD merchant. Exactly what kind though?

    Do you support the concept of England existing as a bounded cultural unit (i.e. a nation)? Are you English? Are you an introvert? Are you an English nationalist introvert? Why do you think we are interested in your non-relevant OPINION?

  81. Big Jock says:

    37,000 rejected ballots…pretty significant at nearly 2%!

  82. Famous15 says:

    I notice there are a number of constituency crowdfunders on the go for SNP candidates. To share the friendship and warmth with sensibledave could I invite him to generously join in. We provide much mental recreation for him that a wee donation would not be amiss.

  83. Alba 46 says:

    TV debates. Obviously May has bent the ear of her tame PR BBC propaganda mouthpiece in order that she only has to debate with Corbyn. NS now has the dubious “pleasure” of debating with Farron two days later.

    What a lily livered coward. Frightened to debate her corner with someone who will tear her to pieces. In my 71 years I have never seen anything so despicable and cowardly. This is the woman who lectures the EU from a lectern in the safety Downing street.

    To the people of Scotland who voted conservative (yes small C, they dont deserve anything more) are you really serious that you want this weak, spineless and cowardly politician to represent you?

    Of course this could be avoided if Corbyn refused to debate with her. But hey we are talking labour here.

  84. Dr Jim says:

    See when Yousain Bolt wins the race by half a second
    the world goes mad and he gets a gold medal

    How much do the SNP need to win by to get the gold F…..g medal, a million votes, two million votes, up tae the moon and back

    See these absolute pratts of Unionists just keeping trying to reinvent new rules to suit they’re obsession it’s no wonder Scotland is running out of patience with them

    Me! I ran out of patience quite some time ago, I don’t even pity the fools now

    I sound like B,A Baracas

    On another note, in the EU Parliament they’re discussing Scotlands position again and favouring the Independence option for us and talking about how the UK can’t conclude Scottish matters in the Brexit discussions until a referendum is called by Nicola Sturgeon and is either won or lost

    Mrs May will be delighted to have been told exactly what I’ve been saying for months, as far as Scotland is concerned, now is not the time Mrs May you’ll have to wait for Nicola

    Oooh that’s bound to sting yer strengthened stabilised Arse Team May

  85. meg merrilees says:


    I was musing on postal votes too. Wonder if that was how the tory got most of his votes in Shettleston? Old, housebound people, friendly face visiting them since November?

    Also. I read hat there were 70,000+ postal votes issued in Edinburgh but under 60% returned and a similar number in Glasgow of which 60%+ were returned.

  86. Dr Jim says:

    Rejected Ballots

    Many of the Ballots were found to have had crosses marked in the boxes

    Although it clearly stated put !!!! Numbers!!!!

    You wonder why we bother eh, still they were more likely to have been Yoon supporters our lot couldnae be that daft

  87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Sarah @ 15:50,

    You seem to be labouring under a significant misapprehension about this, Sarah, as you have also mentioned before. There is no need for any official body to intervene and ask anyone else to perform monitoring.

    It is your right as a citizen to apply to the Electoral Commission to become an accredited observer yourself. (Anyone can do it, the only proviso being the obvious one that there has to be sufficient room at any event to let the people doing the work actually get on with it properly!)

    The Electoral Commission also allow foreign observers to register. The accreditation process may be different (I never looked at that, not being relevant), but it’s essentially a very transparent process.

    So there would be nothing to stop you yourself requesting some recognised international body to have members who are willing to register and attend election procedures, including (eg.) the right to enter any polling station, postal vote validation, or count.

    It is an incedibly open process, and my experience has uniformly been that when you do participate, you are shown every courtesy to view everything, and people involved are perfectly happy (within the limits you must of course concede them to carry out a very full workload) to answer any questions you may have.

    Election workers are even a little bit appreciative that some ordinary person is willing to give up some of their time to see them diligently carrying out a very important puiblic service. They normally get no recognition for their service besides the token thanks they get from the candidates at declaration time.

    So please, don’t get carried away with the notion that this is some kind of mysterious secretive process which can hide all kinds of malfeasance. It is emphatically not like that at all.

    Try it and see for yourself!

  88. gus1940 says:

    Orange is the New Blue – or vice versa – Take your pick.

  89. Robert Graham says:

    sorry to upset folks, Mayhem aint debating with anyone , she will be taking questions probably from a vetted audience ,corbyn will follow the same format they will not MEET , on a stage , a hall , a studio .not now not ever ,Mayhem knows she will have to defend her governments record , and possibly the impending CPS decision.

  90. Brus MacGallah says:

    Why do people keep saying they hope Kez will get her jotters, surely she is the best thing that ever happened to the SNP. That’s 3 in a row she’s ballsed up!

  91. Thepnr says:

    Robert J. Sutherland

    I didn’t know that individuals in the UK could apply to become accredited observers, so thanks for that.

    Thought it would be worth posting a direct link.

  92. sensibledave says:

    CameronB Brodie 4:05 pm

    You wrote “I was wondering as to the source of your interest and involvement in the debate, as you do little to shed light.”

    … I have explained many times (to Robert Puffers most recently I think) as to why I visit Wings – go and read it.

    You wrote “Do you support the concept of England existing as a bounded cultural unit (i.e. a nation)? Are you English? Are you an introvert? Are you an English nationalist introvert? Why do you think we are interested in your non-relevant OPINION?

    As mentioned earlier, as part of my mission to “inform and educate”, I try and engage with others that may have different political opinions to me. I am conscious that some here on Wings quite like to write comments that in effect can be distilled down to them saying “me too” – that’s not my favoured style.

    I know though, although it is hard for some to say it, I am actually quite liked here on WIngs. Lets be honest, I am the only person that will babysit Heedy – thus giving everyone else the opportunity to make serious points. Robert Peffers gets to write a weekly history lesson (although it is always the same one) and Cybie comes across all tough and scary but she’s just a wee lassie acting up really.

  93. gus1940 says:

    While it is admirable that Facebook is publicising their campaign against Fake News on Social Media what can be done regarding the Fake News conjured up by the dead tree press with the Express being the worst offender closely followed by The Daily Heil?

  94. Thepnr says:

    MSP Gillian Martin of the SNP has her rescue dog in the competition for Holyrood dog of the year on behalf of the Dogs Trust.

    The Rev has done a couple of retweets for her and I would like to see her win too.

    You can vote for her and the dog via this page.

  95. Rowdy Yates says:

    But the worrying thing is that if you tally up the unionist votes (as percentages) they come to 52.3% whilst the independence votes (SNP + Greens) are at 36.4%. And yes, I know that this is a local election using STV with characteristically low turnout but still… Work to be done clearly.

  96. t42 says:

    BBC #fakedebate

  97. stu mac says:

    @Arbroath1320 says:
    8 May, 2017 at 12:50 pm

    It would be nice to think so but it is highly unlikely. A party (or partly policy) with a low starting point has a lot of votes it can garner but once it has a substantial support (which 45-50%) it is harder to increase that. You are having to bite into hard core voters of other parties some of whom will never change and of course the propaganda forces of the UK make picking up the able-to-be-persuaded difficult as always.

    Folk go on about the big jump in indy support in 2014 and the subsequent boost in SNP support following, but what must be remembered is the concept of a “tipping point”. Many people had supported the SNP but not necessarily independence and many people had been getting sick of Labour but still sort of hung on to them for one reason or another. 2014 changed that: it was a big change in a short period but the causes were actually long term: you could say maybe Labour’s performance then was the last straw that broke the camel’s back.

    However what all this means is the SNP and indy have scooped up most of the support that had been edging slowly towards them previously. Now there will be more votes to be gained but they won’t be as many and won’t be easily won but they are there to be fought for.

  98. Proud Cybernat says:

    Sensible – you come over a tad tetchy today.

    I feel your pain.

    Nudge nudge, wink wink.

  99. CameronB Brodie says:

    Aye, you’re certainly a gobshite who like the sound of their own voice. You still can’t get around the fact that your position opposes the legitimisation of my humanity. What give you the right to exclude myself and my fellow Scots from inalienable human rights? Not able to allow your ethics to rise above your beliefs? Should Scots just eat their cereal so that your world view remains intact?

  100. call me dave says:

    Prof Curtis: Local election summary.

  101. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 8 May, 2017 at 2:31 pm:

    “Not me though – I always write in a way designed to inform and educate – rather than just being rude. Why oh why can’t everyone else just be as nice as me and you?

    You asked a question, sensibledave, Besides the point that it is not exactly, “nice”, to say, “me and you”. In polite society it should always be the other person mentioned first, i.e. “You and I”, but we’ll let that one pass.

    You appear to imagine Wingers are somehow rather uncouth when they express their honest opinions on Tory, Labour and LibDem unionist. Yet that, if it is their honest opinions of the unionists, an honestly held opinion and it is also honestly expressed.

    Yet you constantly insult a majority of the people of my country in every comment you post to Wings. You constantly attempt to prove that your, “country”, is either the United Kingdom or is an England that has every right to steal the assets of Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland for the greater glory of that which ceased to be an actual bipartite union of equals long, long ago.

    So, sensibledave, I class you as I used to class the former, very large, but very polite school bully.

    He would come out of the school dinner hall and approach some small and scrawny kid eating a sparse, but lovingly prepared, packed lunch. Then very politely say to the poor kid, “Very sorry titch but I’m still hungry”, then punch the poor kid and steal his lunch.

    On my first week at that city school after arriving from the farm the bully thought to have my lunch. What he did not take into account was that on family farms, in those days, everyone who could help worked hard from a very early age.

    So I was small, strong, very fit and wiry. After a very swift, you could hardly call it a fight, he got taken to the School Nurse to be patched up and I got taken to the Head Master’s room for six of the best with the Lochgelly Tawse.

    Now I didn’t apologise to the big bully before I hit him as he had attempted to do to me. No – I hit the bugger, then I hit him again, just to make sure he wasn’t getting back up to come back at me. Only then did I say, “Tak that ye big Bastirt”.

    I got the accolade of being titled new, “School Bully”, but, sensibledave, I never bullied anyone in the years I spent at that school. Neither did anyone else, though.

    When I left the Head called me into his office, shook my hand, and said, “This has been the most trouble free time the school has had in the time I’ve taught here. I hope you don’t mind that I had no option but to punish you for fighting”?

    Oh! BTW: He had made a millionaire’s son the School Captain and made me the Second in command. The School captain eventually became a Lord Provost of Edinburgh. He didn’t merit that either. Amazing what money can buy.

  102. sensibledave says:

    CameronB Brodie 4:59 pm

    You wrote “What give you the right to exclude myself and my fellow Scots from inalienable human rights?

    Just how thick are you Cammie?? I haven’t done a damn thing to exclude you and your fellow Scots from inaliable human rightS!

    The only people that stopped there being an Independent Scotland was a majority of Scottish people.

    … but you are just to stupid to “get” that aren’t you Cammie! You need to deflect and find a new enemy because your country folk think disagree with them.

    I wonder what Freud would have made of you Cammie – everyone in the UK is responsible for Scotland not being and Independent country – OTHER THAN THE JOCKS THAT VOTED AGAINST IT!

  103. sensibledave says:

    Proud Cybernat 4:56 pm

    …. Ive’ switched off my “moronic jock” filter off but your messages are still not coming through properly.

    Should I also switch of my “probably a loonie that has nothing to say other than everyone other than SNP voters is baaaad” filter too?

    I feel your pain.

    Nudge nudge, wink wink.

  104. Brian McHugh says:

    With regards to Glasgow City Council and COSLA, Thus was Susan Aitken in Feb 2015.

  105. Brian McHugh says:

    With regards to Glasgow City Council and COSLA, This was Susan Aitken in Feb 2015.

  106. Robert Peffers says:

    @sensibledave says: 8 May, 2017 at 3:51 pm:

    “Cybie 3.31
    … sorry Cybie, I don’t understand your comment.
    I have a “moronic jock filter” running on my machine, could that be the reason your comments don’t make sense?”

    So our sensible, polite and nice, sensibledave actually has no scruples whatsoever when it comes to derogatory terms. Scratch a British Nationalist and their nastiness is very close to the surface.

  107. Proud Cybernat says:

    Sensible “moronic Jock filter”?? Am I supposed to react to that Sensible? Okay – hahahahahahah!

    If you want to see a real proper reaction, Sensible, get yourself off home right now and see your wife’s face when you pop home early. She’s upstairs btw – in bed.

    Nudge nudge, wink wink.

    LOLZ 🙂 🙂

  108. t42 says:

    The leaders aren’t even going to be filmed at the same time! What.a.farce.

    BBC #fakedebate

  109. CameronB Brodie says:

    Use your imagination bud. You are here every day, arguing against those who support independence. By doing so, you are actively supporting the status quo and the denial of my human rights. You are neither impartial or innocent. Please don’t leave us though as you are both instructive and entertaining.

    Btw, do you reject post-modern critical social theory?

  110. Robert Graham says:

    I just had confirmation of my thoughts on this constant , Scots don’t want another referendum mantra , There it was in full glory Ming – Ming the merciless Ha Ha and then it dawned on me ,

    They don’t have any Ammo left, out of Ammo , out of ideas , all the bloody calamitous events that they predicted if we voted YES , have happened and if was because the mugs here who voted NO ,

    They can’t say that this could happen or that could happen again , when we can present evidence of what has actually happened , not could or would, Actual cause and effect . They are F/I’d

    Oh dear how sad, never mind the Yanks who told merry old England to f/off in 1776 will help them out , probably well maybe, the Donald keeps shouting America first so best of luck, eh I wonder what route the ships will be taking, that might be a problem, with a United Ireland a real problem .

  111. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links for the remainder of November 2013 and the first (reverse order) few for December 2013 now showing over on O/T.

  112. Clapper57 says:

    Before Cameron even announced there would be a EU Referendum the WANNABE Brexit MOB opinion on French = “French Frogs”.

    Post Brexit/pre French election the Brexit MOB rhetoric on French = “Come on France, Vive Le France, vote for Le Pen and then Frexit”.

    Post French presidential election the Brexit MOB opinion on French = “French Frogs”.

    Note the Brexit MOB are currently slating Merkel and yelling that Macron is now awaiting orders from Merkel in Germany.

    BUT….BUT…hold on there are German elections this year.

    So what will the Brexit MOB be saying about Germans just before German election und then post election.

    Personally I could not even hazard a guess…..I mean, their opinions just recently has been all over the place ……guess they are kinda following the ‘If you are not with us you’re against us’ trend….. so popular with EXTREME right …..hence the flip flop opinions that would even out flip flop Keiza D…..see those extreme right Brexiteer MOB……..they mental, chicken oriental are they no ?

  113. Thepnr says:

    @Robert Graham

    Yes it seems that way to me too. Without ammo the white flag must be raised. Hence “now is not the time” and “No to a second referendum.”

    They will be lost when the real battle for Scotland’s heart is fought.

  114. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    stu mac @ 16:54,

    I mostly agree with you there except I don’t think the tipping point has arrived yet.

    A lot of people like myself had become quietly persuaded by the positive case for indy as opposed to the complete credibility vacuum of the BT campaign, amid all its lies and distortions, so found themselves “coming off the fence” with the binary decision we had to take. I didn’t “do” any social media in those days, it was an individual decision on the merits of the case as I saw them.

    It was really a combination of factors that galvanised the converted 45% afterwards – the various betrayals by the Unionist side that are so familiar to us all I don’t need to rehearse them here – that made people finally get off their knees and refuse to accept the con trick that had been perpetrated upon them. But the 55% continued to hold out unchanged, clinging on to their need for continuity like a comfort blanket.

    Brexit has changed matters. It has finally shocked many former “no’s” out of their complacency or tribal alliances, but has complicated things also by tempting a segment of disaffected isolationists who previously voted “yes”.

    The inconvenient truths about Brexit are being carefully hidden by the Tories and their media collaborators, desperate to stave off the realisation by any more Scots that we are being sacrificed by the BritNats for the sake of our precious resources.

    I believe the tipping point will occur when the penny finally drops for the last segment of persuadable voters. (An achievable total of ~2:1 for indy, I reckon)

    The Mayhem Gang is making strenuous efforts to counterattack by an ur-BritNat attempt to rally people to their tattered flag against the “devious lying furriners”. Such as the immigrants they are once again promising to limit (and deny to a hard-pressed NHS), despite the utter failure of May’s own former department to fulfil that pledge in successive previous elections. Still, their xenophobic fictions will likely work in England, but not here now.

    Despite the best efforts of the BritNat media, the inconvenient truths about Brexit are going to stack up, and that’s when the balance will finally tilt in favour of independence.

  115. Grouse Beater says:

    Sensible Dave: “The only people that stopped there being an Independent Scotland was a majority of Scottish people.

    As usual a load of dimwit bull from Sententious Dave.

    According to analysis a majority of Scots voted Yes. A great many of the No’s wanted more powers and never got them, and a percentage of the electorate didn’t vote.

    Difficult to believe Ditzy Dave is still here peddling wares no one buys.

  116. One_Scot says:

    The fact that the BBC won’t put Theresa May up against Nicola Sturgeon for the TV debates makes it plain for everyone to see that they want to protect May, and want the Conservatives to do well in the UK General election.

    It is absolutely shocking that our public State broadcaster basically wants an unchallenged coronation for Theresa May. The sooner the Scottish public realise that the BBC is merely a front for the Conservative party, and that they are no friend of Scotland, the better.

  117. Walking On Sunshine says:

    Political parties like ‘Scottish’ Labour are irrelevant in 2017.

    They should bugger off to a quiet corner in the pub and swap stamps or something. They have no policies and nowhere to go.

    Incompetent nonentities like Dugdale should disband and take up gardening or hill walking. Anything to get them out the house.

    They would never be missed.

  118. galamcennalath says:

    One_Scot says:

    BBC won’t put Theresa May up against Nicola Sturgeon for the TV debates

    I was looking forward to that but somehow knew it probably wouldn’t happen.

    Nicola would come across as sensible, middle of the road, appealing, and full of good common sense policies … to an English audience. Years of work by the BBC, Mail, Express, Telegraph would be destroyed in an hour. May would be seen as the out-on-a-limb right wing nutter she is!

  119. geeo says:

    Good grief…

    BBC news scotland regio talking about how the SNP support has went from 50% (GE) to 46% (Holyrood Election) to 32% (local election).

    Virtually TELLING unionists to tactical vote against the SNP in June…BASTARDS !!!

  120. jfngw says:

    Is Dugdale going to campaign on raising or not raising the basic income tax rate since Labour has now promised not to raise it if you earn below £80k. One party, two opposing policies, and they wonder why they are not trusted.

  121. One_Scot says:

    BBC Reporting Scotland there, promoting tactical voting for the unionist parties to try and beat the SNP.

    Seriously, could the BBC be any more openly biased and corrupt.

    Is there no low they will sink to, to try and reduce the number of SNP MPs at Westminster so they can say the SNP are finished.

    The tactics and political agenda the UK media absolutely disgusts me.

  122. Robert Peffers says:

    @Proud Cybernat says: 8 May, 2017 at 4:56 pm:

    “Sensible – you come over a tad tetchy today.
    I feel your pain.”

    Ah! Proud Cybernat, you detect that sensibledave is no different from the other British/English Nationalists.

    Their overwhelming sense of superiority and entitlement is so inbred as to leave them totally unaware of what they actually are.

    That tetchiness you detect is actually the point I’m attempting to make here. It never enters their subconscious that they are very little different from the forces of evil they claim to have triumphed over in the years between 1939 and 1945.

    Indeed, in the years immediately leading to WWII the English/British aristocracy, led by the highest in the land, were touch and go as to whether they would follow or fight Herr Hitler’s NAZI party.

    The real story of Edward VIII crowned 20 January 1936 and who abdicated 20 January 1936 was not really because he married a divorcee but because both he and his intended wife were avid NAZI supporters.

    The Divorcee thing was the official smokescreen. After all the present Heir to the throne, due to her Majesty’s age, could at any instant become King of The United Kingdom and he is now married to a divorcee.

    In the years immediately leading to that abdication much of the English aristocracy were deeply involved in actual NAZI party activity. The British Brown-Shirts were led by Sir Oswald Mosely and there were several other aristocratic British families, (The Mitford sisters springs to mind), however, there is no doubt that it was quite touch and go how things turned out: –

    There is very little difference between what drove NAZI Germany and what Drove the creation of the, so called, “British”, Empire. Both nations, Germany and the UK, had the same Blood & Soil Nationalist drive to take over the World for the greater glory of their nation.

    The only difference is the English call it patriotism and deem Patriotism is so much better than Nationalism.
    i.e. Patriotism Good! Nationalism Bad!

    All the classic signs are there to see. Everything is, “British”, yet Westminster only rules the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom is a bipartite union of two former equally sovereign kingdoms but they claim it is, “A country”, yet Westminster now operates as a de facto parliament of the country of England, yet it still claims to be, “The United Kingdom”.

    Westminster has now instigated EVEL to exclude all others from interfering in what Westminster claims is England Only Matters but simultaneously funds only England directly as, “The United Kingdom with United Kingdom wide collected customs & Excise Duty and constantly claims that the English are subsidising the other three countries while running up massive, “National Debt”, with the only unrestrained, (by Block Grant funding), being the unelected as such, de facto parliament of England. Block Grant funded countries cannot run up debts because they have to legally balance their books.

    Yet they just do not see the truth of the matter and they accuse the Scots, who have no desire to run anyone else’s country or kingdom but their own and to do so with only their own natural resources.

    So just ask sensibledave how his declared views differ from that of any other unionists – or indeed any of the former NAZIs or modern neo-NAZIs.

  123. Liz Rannoch says:


    Yes they are…. more than that!

    Anybody got ebc complaints on speed dial?
    And allowed that comment from the yoon idiot in St Andrews to Dim Farron!

    Ooooh Am Biling!!

  124. One_Scot says:

    I genuinely don’t think that the SNP will be able to return 56 MPs to Westminster. BBC Scotland, Reporting Scotland and the rest of their cabal will manipulate the voting public to ensure it does not happen.

    Clearly they see this as the way to defeat the SNP and the Independence movement. Shower of scum, so they are.

  125. One_Scot says:

    Seriously, is that legal for a State Broadcaster to promote tactical voting to try and damage a sitting Government?

  126. mike cassidy says:

    Curtice speaks with forked spreadsheet.

  127. jfngw says:

    Highly dubious graph showing what they inferred was loss of SNP support from 2015 to 2017. They failed to include the 2012 results on the graph as this did not suit the narrative they were pushing.

    Even had Curtice saying that the SNP had done badly, presumably by having the highest poll a most councillors by party this is badly. Sometimes Prof Curtice needs to use more balanced language or we may doubt his impartiality.

  128. Wee Alex says:

    I see a Stirling Tory has been outed as a bigot on the Net.

    I’m no good at links so I hope I get this right.

    Probably more to follow. Well Ruth, how are you going to play this one

    Sack him or stick with him. My bets on the latter.

  129. jfngw says:

    Last post was referring to Rep Scot.

  130. Robert Peffers says:

    @CameronB Brodie says: 8 May, 2017 at 5:29 pm:

    … Btw, do you reject post-modern critical social theory?”

    Reject it, Cameron? He hasn’t even heard of it and wouldn’t understand it even if he had heard of it.

  131. Dr Jim says:

    While the Yoons bang on about how much they hate Nicola Sturgeon and how they’ve all got to band together into one party to defeat her the SNP put out their latest party political broadcast and Scotlands Queen of Campaigning says just one word in the broadcast


    And in that one word, it’s all over for the bad guys

  132. Sensibledave says:

    Robert 5.21

    Whilst we may have different views on politics Robert, i believe that you had argued your corner with passion and belief.

    To find you supporting Cybie with her childish references to the faithfulness, or not, of my wife, comes as a bit of a surprise.

    I will take it as “win” when you and Cybie have to use my wife to try and win an argument.

    I hope you are proud of yourselves – you do your party proud!

  133. chocolass says:

    Yep,Nicola nailed it yet again!

  134. Brian Powell says:

    The election is past, the results had importance, the SNP and independence won it. The continuing focus on it by commentators and politicians is a diversion tactic, attempting to control the agenda.

    The opposition doesn’t decide the next move, we do.

  135. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert Peffers
    I’m certainly not claiming I know it all Robert but the cultural prejudice we are up against really gets more than a little tedious.

  136. Grouse Beater says:

    It’s called ‘trending”, in my lexicon, gaining a new wave of readers, worldwide, but don’t ask me why people pick up a previous essay and run with it:

  137. HandandShrimp says:

    If a vote for the Tories is the answer then it must have been a damned silly question.

    May is running a ridiculous vacuous campaign based purely on sound bites and silly slogans. She won’t face people nor will she face other politicians. The Tories are now recycling infeasible promises on immigration, the same promises they have failed to deliver on year after year in the brazen assumption that the electorate are dim.

    Are Scots dim? I don’t think so. We have seen through the Tory nonsense for decades and this is not the time to lose our sight and our senses. Quite simply don’t vote Tory. Make May face up to reality. Vote SNP, Hell, vote Labour if you must, but do not give succor to the new UKIP. They will take us back to the misery of the Thatcher years.

  138. Orri says:

    The over 50% of Scots was of those in a survey that took place solely within Scotland.

    That’s also where we get the data on how EU nationals and others voted.

    The one piece of information you can glean from that is that if you only survey voters living in Scotland then, if I remember, the actual result would have been far closer. 47:53 or even closer.

    Which in turn means that any poll taken within Scotland weighted to the 45:55 ratio is underestimating the level of support for independence here.

  139. yesindyref2 says:

    There’s just one small problem: however equal their relationship may be now, there is no getting away from the fact that the manner in which they got together was, not to put too fine a point upon it, deeply disturbing.

    Even the Express covered it better

    If Wings is going to be like the Daily Mail, and worse than the Express and the Daily Telegraph then I guess it’s OK to make innuendoes about posters’ wives, when those wives if they exist don’t post here, can’t defend themselves, and don’t deserve to be defamed with cowardly attacks.

  140. galamcennalath says:

    geeo says:

    BBC news scotland regio talking about how the SNP support has went from 50% (GE) to 46% (Holyrood Election) to 32% (local election).

    Virtually TELLING unionists to tactical vote against the SNP in June

    Intentional. Attempting to sell the idea that the SNP support is contracting and backing them is no longer worth while. Trying to get supporters to give up and stay at home.

    It won’t work. Most supporters are now independent of the BBC. Our enthusiasm won’t diminish as we see ScotRef and a positive outcome within grasp.

  141. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 19:43,

    I have to agree. What’s the advice:

    “Play the ball, not the man’s wife”?

    I’m sure that it serves our pet visitor’s purposes just as much to make us appear as nasty ungracious people as it is to divert threads towards his own agenda and get us arguing among ourselves about it.

    Let him advertise his Unionist self-delusions with just a gentle tease. The dear man has this typical English quirk that he is sure those pesky furriners can be made to see reason, England-style, and we will manage to muddle through somehow. As we always have done. Stands to reason, innit? And we in North Britain can then be chums with Olde England again (the latter calling all the shots as per usual).

    Pity the fool bloke person for his/her self-assured delusions. The truth will assert itself soon enough, and I fear will deliver him/her a (metaphorical) hard slap across the face…

  142. K1 says:

    Why are there ‘so few’ sensibledave’s ‘allowed’ on Wings? Amazing that he gets the preferential treatment when all other wankers get bumped? That’s a question worth a ponder or two. Apparently all these ‘personal spats’ really aren’t remotely near the tightrope of ‘Ban Canyon’ and yet y’know, sensibledave is one of those very same posters doing exactly that when he comes on here? Is that why he doesn’t get bumped, cause he’s ‘useful’ in some way?

    Tiresome doesn’t covey how utterly boring this constant shit between him and everyone else having their ‘personal spats’ wi him on here is. Diabolically moronically piss awful mind numbingly brain exploding shit for brains b….o….r….i….n….g.

  143. Tinto Chiel says:

    Robert Peffers: re British aristocrats and the Nazis…..

    You’ve probably seen this but others might find it interesting.

  144. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sensibledave says: 8 May, 2017 at 7:24 pm:

    ” … To find you supporting Cybie with her childish references to the faithfulness, or not, of my wife, comes as a bit of a surprise.”

    You really have reached an all time low – even for you. I have never made reference to your wife at any time. I wouldn’t even know if you even have one and care even less if you had.

    You really are a quite despicable person and becoming more desperate by the day.

  145. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Haven’t fully caught up today so apologies if already mentioned.

    On the day Kezia launches the BLiS GE Manifesto stating ‘No to Indy Ref2’ (aye, I know, they must be thinking “surely must work for us this time”).

    Funky Duncy Horsefeathers on Labourhame basically begging Yoon voters to let them (BLiS) keep a GE seat while blaming the SNP for their woes but claiming that isn’t what he means by ‘solidarity’.

    And how SNP were always planning to ‘kill off BLiS’ seriously:

    “So in the electoral cycles since 2014 the SNP has completed its execution of its original Kill Labour strategy with aplomb. The nationalists now find themselves precisely where they always planned to be – the self-proclaimed champions of “Scotland” standing against the Tories happily casting themselves as the champions of the union, and thereby pushing more and more of Scotland’s former Labour vote towards what the SNP will always tell us is the only way the stop the Tories – independence.”

    Classic Blairite BLiS nonsense.

    Also, Funky Duncy doesn’t look well in the photo attributed to the article, either his usual one is years old or the last 2.5 odd years hasn’t been kind to him.

  146. Song42 says:

    Sensible D stop getting personal with people! Grow up!
    You’re always trying to pull people into your ‘not good enough’ game. It’s just as boring this year as it was last.

  147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Heh, saw the SNP political party message on TV this evening and it doesn’t bother to mention Labour. Not even once.

    The Red Tories should have a good look in the mirror as to why, not keep trying to blame it on anyone else.

  148. Robert Peffers says:

    @K1 says: 8 May, 2017 at 8:08 pm:

    “Tiresome doesn’t covey how utterly boring this constant shit between him and everyone else having their ‘personal spats’ wi him on here is.”

    Noq, correct me if I’m wrong, (but forgive me if I suspect you may attempt to correct me when I’m NOT wrong), but I have to ask the pertinent question :-

    If you find any particular commenter’s posting so, “Diabolically moronically piss awful mind numbingly brain exploding shit for brains b….o….r….i….n….g.”

    Why the bloody hell are you idiotically reading the bloody things?

  149. Song42 says:

    Yes Robert I saw it too, it was a good election broadcast eh?
    Did you want them to mention Labour?

    Just had Chris Stevens round campaigning in my area. I’m prepared and waiting for my leaflets and envelopes to be dropped off.

    Graeme. 7th May @ 4.10 pm.
    I enjoyed the video you made, thank you. The hateful, bitter scum of OO men makes me sick every time I see it and it is pretty frightening! Really does need to be seen though! I agree with Capella’s comment about a voice over from Nicola. That would be helpful. Hope that helps. 🙂
    We (you n I) generally meet on the Livestream. 😉

  150. Vestas says:

    So who’s the next mug thats stupid enough to be the leader of the dead morons party?

    Anas? Pretty sure he has just enough grey matter to realise that SLAB is dead in 31 days.

    Jabba the Hut? Doubt it – might as well vote Tory if you want a public school educated idiot.

    Who is going to pick up the poisoned chalice? I’m honestly intrigued to see which fool puts themselves forward as the saviour of SLAB/the union next 🙂

  151. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Hi, all you Labourite lurkers out there – yes, you there – recovering here for a bit of light relief from having taken a glance at your own party’s manifesto.

    We like you. We really do. We don’t want to wipe you out (despite the occasional Cain-like temptation, under severe provocation, you understand), we want you to prosper. We keep telling you how you can get out of the deep, deep hole into which you have dug yourself. (geddit? =grin=) But you are so stubborn, you plug your ears and don’t want to hear.

    Listen up and smarten up. Turn around and face your real enemy who is currently busily burying a knife into your back. You don’t have to strain yourself by going full-bore for indy, but neither do you have to act as second-rate patsies for the Tories by defending this fagged-out unequal old Union. They’re laughing up their sleeves at how gullible you are. Then, when the time is ripe, they will shunt you as the “real defenders” of the Great Cause for which they are currently very happy to see you wrecking your future.

    Wise up. This election is definitely your last chance. Get out of the way or be trampled upon. Even better, join us in fighting our true common enemy.

    Come on, it’s the right thing, and you know you can do it…

  152. Robert Peffers says:

    @Tinto Chiel says: 8 May, 2017 at 8:08 pm:

    “Robert Peffers: re British aristocrats and the Nazis…..
    You’ve probably seen this but others might find it interesting.

    Actually I hadn’t seen that one, Tinto Chiel. There is much documented stuff but it gets very little exposure to the masses.

    To the extent that most Scots have no idea just how extensive the NAZI sympathy was in Britain.

    In fact if you were to tell most Scots that Hitler had the, “Britisches Freikorps”, they would probably not believe you.

    Scroll through this website and get the facts :-

  153. meg merrilees says:

    Wee Alex @ 7.33pm

    No surprises re the so-called Tories being fielded by the tRuthless.
    Another candidate, this time in Bannockburn – who wasn’t elected- was standing as a ‘strong and stable’ Tory when in fact as recently as 2014 , he was Chairman of UKIP for Scotland.
    older how many skeletons are yet to be disclosed?

  154. Proud Cybernat says:

    Oi Sensible – Cybie isn’t a member of any party. Political or otherwse. But OMG – the parties your wife enjoys when you’re not around.

    Always the last to know, eh Sensible. Nudge nudge, wink wink.


  155. Sensibledave says:


    There seems to be some confusion above.

    In simple terms ….

    Proud Cybernat keeps insinuating that my wife must be having an affair.

    Robert Peffers objected to me ridiculing Ms Cybie for her silliness

    Cybie is desperate and Robert is either equally as desperate or – didn’t read Cybie’s comments to me before he jumped in to defend her (which is probably the more likely reason as Robert writes rather than reads as we all know)

    Anyway, no probs. I know they are both an embarrassment to most on here.

  156. K1 says:

    It is hard to scroll past some of these personal spats Robert as they begin to intrude on the thread flow, imo. And you are right I don’t have to read them and have begun ignoring most.

    Ma point wasn’t really about commenter/s posts per se (I just really enjoyed writing that last sentence). It was partially about why sensibledave hasn’t been bumped considering all others of his ilk have been and ma curiosity about whether he is in some way ‘useful’? Also that Rev had said he was tired of the ‘personal spats’ and yet sensibledave is very much indulging in personal spats when he comes here. So in essence these spats are fine…no one’s near the tightrope…really.

    So have at it. Just noting this…is all.

    ‘but forgive me if I suspect you may attempt to correct me when I’m NOT wrong’

    Why would I attempt to correct you, if you make a correct observation Robert. I have low tolerance for dodgy logic, not something I’ve observed in your posts generally.

  157. Thepnr says:

    Apologies for feeling I have to talk about trolls once more as I believe as the Rev advises they are best ignored completely.

    I’m posting because the point the Rev makes obviously hasn’t got through or did at one time and then is forgotten.

    There are more types on trolls on Wings than most might imagine but two types are obvious. That doesn’t mean they are working for the 77th brigade as that would be ridiculous to assume that all disrupting threads on Wings are payed by the government.

    The first is the most obvious, posters like Sensibledave or Rock, they are controversial and simply want to wind people up by encouraging them to engage in their differing opinions of the majority on here.

    They should be the most easily ignored as their contribution to this site is trivial at best and meaningless in the main.

    The other type though is much more difficult to spot, but I can assure they are here. They try to spread disinformation in between what you would consider reasonable comments though they never offer proof or evidence.

    Just look because they are there. Then you ignore them.

  158. geeo says:

    What Prof Curtiss didn’t say…

    BBC latest 6.30pm news.

    BBC news scotland regio talking about how the SNP support has went from…

    50% (GE) to

    46% (Holyrood Election) to

    32% (local election).

    Virtually TELLING unionists to tactical vote against the SNP in June.

    What they are NOT saying is, the LIKE FOR LIKE differences…oh look see…as it happens…
    2010 GE (19.9% of vote) 491,386 votes

    2015 GE (50% of vote) 1,454,436 Votes

    (30.1% INCREASE in vote share).

    (INCREASE in votes won = 963,050).
    2011 SE. (44% of the vote) 902,915. constituency votes.

    2016 SE. (46% of the vote) 1,059,857.

    2% INCREASE in Vote share.

    INCREASE in votes won = 156,942 (constituency).

    1st time ever over 1 Million constituency votes.
    2012 Council Elections. (32.3% vote share) 503,233 votes won.

    2017 Council Elections. (32.3% of vote share) 610,454 votes won.

    0% increase in vote share.

    INCREASE in votes won = 107,221

    Like for like comparisons are more telling for the ACTUAL reality of SNP support.

    Just do not expect to see it on the BBC.

  159. Glamaig says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    8 May, 2017 at 8:56 pm
    Hi, all you Labourite lurkers out there – yes, you there –

    Yes you Labourite lurkers, I’m Labour too. Or I was until some time in the 80’s when you said Thatcher had no moral authority in Scotland and I was willing you to walk out of Westminster and reconvene the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh. But you didn’t, and I started voting SNP.

    Tell me this, does May have moral authority in Scotland?

  160. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Mixed in with SD’s “I’m here to educate you” which I laugh at but some seem to rise to, there are things that “need” to be answered, and often don’t. So unfortunately those like me who don’t like to see untruths unchallenged have to read the whole thing, see if anyone makes a sensible reply instead of abusing the guy, and maybe do the job.

  161. Glamaig says:

    meg merrilees says:
    8 May, 2017 at 9:02 pm

    ‘Another candidate, this time in Bannockburn’

    I wonder if this is the guy with 2 big UJs in his garden at the A9/A91 roundabout? Total eyesore.

  162. Graeme says:

    Song42 says:
    8 May, 2017 at 8:45 pm

    “Graeme. 7th May @ 4.10 pm.
    I enjoyed the video you made, thank you. The hateful, bitter scum of OO men makes me sick every time I see it and it is pretty frightening! Really does need to be seen though! I agree with Capella’s comment about a voice over from Nicola. That would be helpful. Hope that helps. ?
    We (you n I) generally meet on the Livestream.”

    Thanks for your comment as i said to Capella It wouldn’t be difficult adding a voiceover it’s finding the right quote so far I haven’t found any that would be appropriate so if you have any suggestions i’m willing to take them on board

    so far I’m really pleased with the response I opened an account with archive,org and posted it there along with a video I made in 2015 called Referendum 2014 and so far Parcel of Thieves has had about 220 views and 1 review so if it’s turned 1 person over to independence it will have been well worth it

    “We (you n I) generally meet on the Livestream.”

    I sometimes watch the Livestream for the big events, I think these guys do a fantastic job but I can’t but I can’t remember seeing you

    do you use another name?


  163. Song42 says:

    After these year of watching you all with yer spats etc. Occasionally i thought that perhaps Sensible D was a plant of some kind…and I don’t mean a beautiful smelling geranium. 🙂

  164. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Glamaig @ 21:23:

    Tell me this, does May have moral authority in Scotland?

    Tell me this (dear Labourites), does May have a mandate in Scotland? Will she have one after 8th June, do you think?

    (And will you? Or even have anyone left? Uh, Remaining, that is. Err, I mean still an MP?)

  165. Rock says:


    “The first is the most obvious, posters like Sensibledave or Rock, they are controversial and simply want to wind people up by encouraging them to engage in their differing opinions of the majority on here.”

    Since you mention me, may I respectfully remind you that this website does not belong to you:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says: (The last leap)
    25 April, 2017 at 8:00 am

    “Wings has one moderator, and I’m it. Anyone saying anyone else has no right to post here is walking a very thin tightrope over Ban Canyon.

    Have I made myself clear?”

    Secondly, if you want to make comments here, be ready for counter views:


    “Bumbling fools making an embarrassment of the UK never mind Scotland. Just think of Boris Johnson, Fox, Davis or Gove. Not only is May herself an idiot she has surrounded herself with them and they are calling the shots. Calling them wrongly of course as like Harrison they too are delusional. Idiots.”


    “They are neither fools nor idiots. They are some of the nastiest people around.”

    “Calling the likes of May fools and idiots is extremely naive.”

    “You have no idea who we are dealing with.”

    Can you explain why I am a troll for calling May one of the nastiest people around?

  166. K1 says:

    Dont apologise Thpnr, you make very good points. Anyway, anything goes here and no one apologises for any of it.

    The way things are going, we’ll all be so busy ignoring each other and scrolling past the spats and the posts we don’t like, having ‘read’ them or ‘noted’ the commenter’s handle to ensure they are to be ignored before we then ignore them, that the threads will just become a big mix of some of us telling some of us that we should just ignore some of us…and changing our minds if a post or commenter (formerly ignored) types something that we ‘accidentally’ see and ‘respond/react to’ whilst actively engaged in our prior decision to ‘ignore’ and then justifying to ourselves and apologising to others for changing our minds about ignoring those posts/commenters we at some previous point said we were going to ignore and suggested likewise to others at that time…

    …oh wait.

    Please feel free to scroll past this comment.

  167. jfngw says:

    BBC Rep Scot given unqualified endorsement of election coverage by Ruth Davidson. BBC Scotland now even more confident of their neutrality. Don’t know what to expect next, extended highlights of 12th July celebrations possibly.

  168. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sensibledave says: 8 May, 2017 at 9:09 pm:

    ” … Robert Peffers objected to me ridiculing Ms Cybie for her silliness !

    There is no confusion. sensibledave, and your attempts to play the victim card are despicable.

    ” … Cybie is desperate and Robert is either equally as desperate or – didn’t read Cybie’s comments to me”

    Don’t talk pish! Furthermore stop telling lies. I condemned you for using derogatory terms in referring to other posters.

    You mistakenly drew the conclusion this somehow equates to me supporting others who do the same. I condemn Hitler for causing wars to expand the German nation. That doesn’t mean a do not also condemn the United Kingdom for doing the same.

    I have stuck to the subject of politics and independence in my references to you. Which is a damn site more than you have done in your references to me.

    If you name call and make vile accusations you can hardly claim to be the victim when others strike back at you in similar fashion. Just do not attempt to involve me in your childish little spats.

  169. Song42 says:

    @Robert Peffers- that’s one scary ass site you posted!

    @Graeme. Yes I use another name on Livestream. If you were the Graeme that was on the Livestream for the results of the Council Elections then yes, we spoke.
    Perhaps dig around or keep asking people to send you quotes for yer video. If I come across anything that I think may help. I’ll give you a shout.

  170. yesindyref2 says:

    “Can you explain why I am a troll for calling May one of the nastiest people around?”

    This: “… is extremely naive”

    You seek not to inform or voice an opinion, you seek to discredit and divide. And come out with some extreme views to discredit the whole forum itself.

  171. Tinto Chiel says:

    Robert Peffers @8.57: thanks for that.

    Pretty grim reading.

  172. Proud Cybernat says:

    Hey Sensible – this one’s just for you. Make you feel better. A little ditty from a wee Glasgow band.

    Don’t say I’m not good to you now or thinking of your well-being:


    PS – Don’t ever say we didn’t tell you!

  173. Rock says:


    “The first is the most obvious, posters like Sensibledave or Rock,”

    For your information, while I don’t think I have ever responded to sensibledave, the poster who responds most to him had this to say about you:

    Robert Peffers says (to Thepnr):
    27 March, 2017 at 7:40 pm

    “Oh! For the Heaven’s sake stop being so bloody stupid. First of all you are not the person who decides what the purpose of the Rev Stu’s blog is. That’s the Rev Stu’s choice to make. Secondly you probably wouldn’t recognise a real Troll if it was chewing on your ear.”

  174. K1 says:

    Rock why do you constantly miss out the first part of what Rev said on ‘the last leap’ thread when quoting him in the context of telling others off in terms of what you seem to ‘take’ as people moderating ‘you’ on Wings.

    Let me remind you of exactly what he stated:

    ‘I’m getting really, really tired of the personal spats between certain people on here.

    Wings has one moderator, and I’m it. Anyone saying anyone else has no right to post here is walking a very thin tightrope over Ban Canyon.

    Have I made myself clear?’

    Surely you don’t seriously think you are not included in the ‘personal spats between certain people’ that he refers to?

    Very selective quoting as Rock.

    But as I said in ma above post. Who cares.

    Just for the record ye unerstaun, that is the full quote and you are included Rock.

  175. heedtracker says:

    You cant even say voters are “turning away” from SLab anymore.

    Politics of desperation is or are everywhere. Did you know, for the announcement of the French election, Le Pen’s crew barred all news agencies that they don’t like, or fake news, as Trump calls them. Result? all French news corps boycotted Le Pen’s news conference.

    Only corp that did attend? beeb tory gimps.

    That bits a lie, but is it? Beeb so hard core Cons now, you cant tell.

  176. Rock says:


    “You seek not to inform or voice an opinion, you seek to discredit and divide. And come out with some extreme views to discredit the whole forum itself.”

    Is this your forum?


    “If Wings is going to be like the Daily Mail, and worse than the Express and the Daily Telegraph then I guess it’s OK to make innuendoes about posters’ wives, when those wives if they exist don’t post here, can’t defend themselves, and don’t deserve to be defamed with cowardly attacks.”

    What was all that about?

  177. dakk says:

    ‘i thought that perhaps Sensible D was a plant of some kind…’

    Are you suggesting that the Rev is Sensibledave and maybe even Rock in disguise?

    I understand the Campbells have been very tricky customers in the past,but surely even their kin cannot be that Machiaveillian.

    Who knows?

    In any case maybe we would all miss them if they were gone 🙂

  178. Tam the Bam. says:

    Goodness me!….I think Rape-Clause-Ruth crept in when no-one was looking and spiked your drinks!

  179. yesindyref2 says:

    “forum”: a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged

    “literacy”: the ability to read and write

    “GTF”: Grout Treatment Facility

  180. Thepnr says:



  181. ronnie anderson says:

    I’ve read some of the posts & this post from K1 sums up my thoughts of WoS & its Troll posters

    {Tiresome doesn’t covey how utterly boring this constant shit between him and everyone else having their ‘personal spats’ wi him on here is. Diabolically moronically piss awful mind numbingly brain exploding shit for brains b….o….r….i….n….g.}

    Wingers might wake up to the fact its not worth the effort to clatter the keyboard in responce to DIS TRACTORS.

  182. Capella says:

    @ Thepnr @ K1 – I agree. It is extremely tedious to have to scroll past the troll comments, the replies to the troll comments, the comments about the comments etc etc until I usually give up and go and watch a video on youtube. Like Ghandi’s salt march:

    Complete and total ignoral is the best cure IMO. And there – I’ve gone and ignored my own advice.

  183. Rock says:


    “Surely you don’t seriously think you are not included in the ‘personal spats between certain people’ that he refers to?”

    I express my views and challenge others’ if I don’t agree with them.

    I don’t use the T-word against any poster and I don’t repeatedly call on others to stop posting.

    Do you agree with Thepnr that May is a fool and an idiot?

  184. Robert Peffers says:

    @K1 says: 8 May, 2017 at 9:12 pm:

    “It was partially about why sensibledave hasn’t been bumped considering all others of his ilk have been and ma curiosity about whether he is in some way ‘useful’?”

    I believe sensibledave was useful but his usefulness is getting rather thin these days. His more, (cough!), sensible stuff is indeed useful as it most often highlights what could be described as the way most Englander Unionists, and even most Tories, seem to think about Scotland, independence. That and the Englanders strange attitude of entitlement to tell all other how they should think and act.

    Witness the well known English habit of, instead of attempting to learn the other person’s language when in the other person’s country, shouting at them in English as if the raised voice will make the, “Foreigner”, understand English. It never occurs to them, in that situation, they are the foreigners.

    They have been treating the Scottish languages in that manner for centuries. I was Lochgellied in every school class I attended because I deliberately refused to be beaten out of my native tongue.

    I believe you may agree I have a fair grasp of English but I chose to learn it and be bilingual. I also have a fair grasp of proper Lowland Scots, as opposed to, “Standard Scottish English”, which is actually indeed a dialect of English.

    sensibledave unwittingly exhibits every such Little Englander trait and thus offers opportunity to highlight it. Better still he never seems to learn that what he does is offer the perfect foil for lampooning such attitudes.

    However, you are correct that of late he has become rather petty, offensive and aggressive.

    As to the rest of it. When such as sensibledave gets childish and petty I tend to disengage from their rubbish as it is counter productive and, as you say, becomes of no value.

  185. Ken500 says:

    GE – FPTP a higher % of voters vote

    Holyrood D’Hondt – 16/17 can vote Less turnout than a GE.

    Council elections STV. An appalling electoral system. Introduced not to produce an outright winner. 37,000 votes disqualified. Lower turnout.

    If the electoral systems were FPTP. The majority support. The SNP would win outright.

    Based on Glasgow the Independence vote is up.

    The Pollster should try getting it right. Instead of gerrymandering the vote. Not mentioning the electoral fraud by the Tories in 31 constituencies.

  186. K1 says:

    I have zero interest in relating to you Rock. I merely stated above that you are selectively quoting the Rev. So don’t act aw pally wi me, I also saw what you posted to me and about me at the end of ‘the last leap’ too, nasty little creep with a nasty little mind. Fuck off.

    That okay everyone? 🙂

  187. Robert Peffers says:

    @geeo says: 8 May, 2017 at 9:21 pm:
    “What Prof Curtiss didn’t say…

    … Like for like comparisons are more telling for the ACTUAL reality of SNP support.
    Just do not expect to see it on the BBC

    As if!

  188. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    May I just add that I’m also fed up of the people who are now saying they are fed up… =grin=

    Even though I agree with them.

    I have observed that SD makes a special point of targeting the three people on here whom he knows will usually respond to him at length.

    And also baits and switches. He never concedes even when confronted with the incontrovertible, just changes tack. A man on a lone mission.

    Always keep it short and sweet (eg. no mrs refs, pls) with the likes of him and we’ll all be happy bunnies, no?

    ‘Nuff said.

  189. K1 says:

    Capella LOL. Ah honestly don’t think it can be helped Capella. We are after all…only human. 😉

  190. Robert Peffers says:

    @Glamaig says:8 May, 2017 at 9:23 pm:

    ” … Tell me this, does May have moral authority in Scotland?”

    I don’t think May has moral authority in her own lounge at her own home.

  191. K1 says:

    ‘getting rather thin these days.’

    Agreed Robert. He once was worth the sharpening, but now the mind dulls in its presence.

  192. Rock says:


    “If the electoral systems were FPTP. The majority support. The SNP would win outright.”

    With all due respect Ken500, Scotland does not want an undemocratic Westminster like system which gives landslide dictatorships to the likes of Thatcher and Blair, and soon to Saint Theresa of England and Wales, with less than 40% support.

    32% of the vote giving roughly 32% of seats is democratic and fair, in my view.

  193. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    It is useful sometimes to have a tame one, then you can see sometimes in advance what “argument” will be used in the outside world. Like that one about not wanting Brexit negotiations to be successful, which is nonsense, but is used a bit by the more desperate.

  194. Sarah says:

    @Robert J Sutherland at 4.22.

    Thank you for the information about how to be an electoral observer – I often wondered.

    But the point I am trying to make about getting international monitoring of the election is the effect that such an application might have on the media bias. I am basing my view entirely on Craig Murray’s suggestion because he has relevant knowledge and experience.

    He said in his submission to the Scottish Gov on 11th Jan 2017 “The very presence of the international monitoring team will be a strong deterrent to bad media behaviour..”.

    Given that I haven’t seen any better proposal for tackling the appalling state of our media, this suggestion from Craig Murray seems worth trying.

    But have I missed something, RJS?

  195. Meg merrilees says:


    The Conservative candidate was a man who lives in Balfron – not exactly ideal for someone trying to represent Bannockburn folk! (Speaking as one, born and brought up in Bannockburn which voted in one SLab and two SNP ).

    The UJ’s fluttering by the fence at the roadside are extremely irritating and I drive past them usually 4/5 times a week- probably a Rangers man. There’s another ‘huge one’ in Alva – it’s such an ugly flag!

    When it gets too much, I take myself off round to the Borestone, at the Battle Visitor’s Centre and feast my eyes on the massive Saltire fluttering there – which you can see from the M9 heading north.

  196. jfngw says:

    I watched an old episode of Yes Minister a few weeks ago with what was meant to be comedy about the government having spent years trying to break up the EEC from the outside. When that hadn’t worked then they decided to join to try and destroy it from the inside. Now they are going full circle.

    Thought about this when watching BBC news reporting on Macron and how he wasn’t really legitimate as they had really voted against LePen (but she will be back, they hope) and the turnout was only 74%. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a winner with such negative reporting, well apart from SNP of course.

  197. K1 says:

    I hope the Germans finish the Brexiteers off.

    Oh…the irony…and ma aching sides.

  198. Meg merrilees says:

    Any news on whether theTMay Government is being taken to task for breaking the law by not announcing the pension age increase by May 7th 2017?

    Or has it all gone conspiratorially quiet on that front?

  199. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Ken500 @ 22:19:

    Not mentioning the electoral fraud by the Tories in 31 constituencies.

    Talking of b…o…r…i…n…g, this FPTP hobbyhorse of yours is the same. How is it you can’t understand, FPTP is the very thing that provides the marginals that can be targeted like this?

    Do you think that anyone is actually listening? Do you think that going on and on and on ad nauseam about this is somehow going to make someone (in London, as is) hit their forehead with the palm of their hand and go “Oh Ken, I’ve seen the light!”?

    Whatever changes are ever likely to happen with our Scottish electoral systems, I can guarantee you they will never be anything as past its sell-by-date as this 18th-Century relic.

    So please, give it a break, FGS.

  200. heedtracker says:

    With all due respect Ken500, Scotland does not want an undemocratic Westminster like system which gives landslide dictatorships to the likes of Thatcher and Blair, and soon to Saint Theresa of England and Wales, with less than 40% support.

    32% of the vote giving roughly 32% of seats is democratic and fair, in my view.”

    Westminster is democratic though. You can argue that near on a third of UK voters just do not vote in Westminster elections but its the same up here. Like it or not FPTP is fair. Its the Lords what screws it all up.

    FPTP was not picked for Holyrood out of pure fear, of the Scots.

  201. Westie7 says:

    Just read the full results for Aberdeenshire. Mmmm.
    CON way ahead in first pref in every ward, add up both SNP candidates where there are two, and they are still well behind.

  202. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland
    Anyways, changing the subjects, you said: “A lot of people like myself had become quietly persuaded by the positive case for indy as opposed to the complete credibility vacuum of the BT campaign.

    Happened to quite a few I think, but perhaps you can tell us more, as people like yourself who have moved to Independence is what we want a lot more of, and that can help us gently encourage more and more.

    Perhaps others who started to support Independence DURING the campaign, or after the referendum, could tell us their stories?


    If you’re not put off by the fun and games!

  203. Orri says:

    First of let me be entirely clear that I do not believe Curtice is part of any plot to undermine the integrity of the upcoming election.

    However if the intent is to somehow sway voters against the SNP then deliberately portraying them as being on the decline is a high risk strategy.

    Yes it might encourage voters of other parties to believe it worth their time an effort to get out and vote. However the same might also be true of SNP voters. At the same time it would also discourage tactical voting as the believability of only one party having a chance of beating them is lowered.

    That said deliberately understating support for the SNP might be a precursor to fixing the election in a believable way.

  204. The Dog Philosopher says:

    Dear Rev Stu

    I seem to have developed an unusual twitch whenever I view your web site. It only occurs when I come across posts that begin ‘sensible’, or ‘Phil’, or ‘Richard’, or more occasionally ‘Colin’. What happens is that my scrolling finger seems to go into a voluntary spasm and flicks past the specific post. I’m worried that I might be missing something vital to the independence debate. Should I visit my GP or just wait until the irritation subsides with time?

  205. Meg merrilees says:

    The National is reporting tomorrow that the Greens are not standing a candidate in Moray-against Angus Robertson. Beginnings of a progressive alliance to keep the Tories out.

  206. Clootie says:

    I find it easier to skip past certain “posters” because they add no value to the debate. It is NOT because I disagree with them but because their intent is not to participate but disrupt or cause division

    I do read the posts of those who I often disagree with but I know will add value to the debate and give a fresh view or background on an issue. Often they provide information on the history or politics of Scotland.

    Life is to short and the prize too important to waste time engaging with idiots, trolls or bigots so why bother?

  207. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Sarah @ 22:30,

    Ah, thanks for that response. I clearly didn’t understand the nature of your concern. I thought you were concerned about process (as some have been on here) whereas it seems you were actually concerned about (for lack of a better word) environment.

    We do agree about that. The mainstream media here, including the BBC, are a cancer upon the body of democracy. Factually vapid and awash with skewed information by turns. The playing field is so off-level that it’s hard to play a proper game.

    The counter-argument deployed by May is that “we have a free press”. Which rather reminds me of that saying of Anatole France, “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets or steal bread.”

    What improvement might be effected by ethically-reliable foreign observers I can’t say, but I’m sceptical that it would make any real difference. Even more than the last indyref, the stakes are so high that for the Unionists, anything short of outright illegality would justify the result. And afterwards, any revelation of the true nature of the campaign, if we lost it, would be dismissed by the winners as “foreign interference” and too late anyway.

    What might work would be some trustworthy neutral observers who had the right to appear on/in the offending media and require fast rebuttals of factual transgressions. But post-Leveson, I can’t see that being likely to happen either.

    Sorry if that comes over as too negative. It’s a serious problem. Some kind of independent broadcast channel made available to level the playing field for the duration might be a better bet.

  208. heedtracker says:

    BBC 2 Newsnight tory explainerising there, tory surge in Scotland last week shows they can win 12 Scots seats. Deeply dishonest stuff as per but the ligger says its the SLibDem’s can threaten the tories 12 target. I think.

    Clearly if you just keep saying something is going to happen it will, BBC attack propaganda wise.

  209. Orri says:

    At some point if I’ve got time I’ll chart it properly but it might be worth comparing the postal voting percentages and where some of the swings too and from the SNP happened.

    That said, I’ve had a postal vote since the referendum which came in handy for the 2015 GE so without knowing the exact distribution you only have Davidson’s guestimate of the 7:3 Yes/No ratio to go by.

  210. Capella says:

    @ Westie7 – do you have a link to the figures? Aberdeenshire is prone to many manipulations. Worth analysing in detail.

    Areas with a transient military population, holiday homes, elderly retired, and large landholdings, are perfect for inflating the Tory vote IMO. Moray and Perthshire ditto. These are Tory target areas.

    They would love to topple Alex Salmond (Gordon), Angus Robertson (Moray) and Pete Wishart (Perthshire). Stuart Donaldson (Aberdeenshire) will also be a target. But the high profile MPs will be specially tempting.

    Let’s make sure the Tories are defeated.

  211. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland
    Anyways, changing the subjects, you said: “A lot of people like myself had become quietly persuaded by the positive case for indy as opposed to the complete credibility vacuum of the BT campaign.

    Happened to quite a few I think, but perhaps you can tell us more, as people like yourself who have moved to Independence is what we want a lot more of, and that can help us gently encourage more and more.

    Perhaps others who started to support Independence DURING the campaign, or after the referendum, could tell us their stories?


    If you’re not put off by the fun and games!

  212. Robert Peffers says:

    @Song42 says: 8 May, 2017 at 9:43 pm:

    ” … Robert Peffers- that’s one scary ass site you posted!”

    Isn’t it just?

    Mind you the actual situation in and around London in those pre-war and early war years was really scary. No more scary than the propaganda of the later part of the conflict, though. Much of it not really realised by the people even yet.

    For starters the claim that the USA came, “To save our Bacon”, is utter claptrap and if you actually think about it you very soon draw a quite different conclusion.

    Pre-war the USA were operating a form of isolationism. They believed the USA was big enough to not need to co-operate with other nations economies or become involved in diplomatic disputes. This was one factor that led to the Great Depression. Every nation needs to trade.

    Anyway, they were still suffering the great depression when war breaks out in Europe and they stood back and let Europe get on with it. However, they did see a great chance to get themselves out of the depression.

    They passed a law that was generally called the, “Cash & Carry Act”.

    The wording of this act begins, “In defense of the US …” and it states that the USA will sell arms and materials to a nation that has cash in hand and the ships to carry it away.

    But wait up – they must have known the conflict is theirs too – or why else do they say it is, “In defence of the USA”? The go on selling to the allies, (BTW: The USA was only an associate allie).

    That is until the cash ran out and that is when the USA passed another act called, “The Lease/Lend Act”, and this also begins, “In defense of the US …”, and it is a – buy now pay later deal – but it did not stop there.

    They did a deal to exchange 50 old clapped out WW1 Destroyers for 99 year leases for UK overseas bases all over the World. I very much doubt any bases will ever be returned to the UK. Many of the old WWI destroyers did not even make it across the Atlantic. Still in spite of saying they were selling us stuff in defense of the USA they were not fighting to defend the USA. Even although Hitler’s U boats were sinking USA ships just out of USA territorial waters.

    Another thing the USA was doing at this time was selling scrap iron to the Japanese who had a great shortage of iron ore for steel making. Such sources as Australia being already part of WWII and not supplying Japan.

    Then the Japanese declared war on the USA by bombing Pearl Harbour and a few days later Hitler declared war on the USA. Only then did the USA mobilise and come TO FIGHT THEIR OWN CORNER. It also saw the USA, though, climb out of the Great Recession.

    Another thing is the only nation that has ever paid it’s dues to the USA is the UK and that not so very long age.

    I kid you not. You can, with a bit of on-line research verify that every thing I have just written is true and, by the way you can look up the struggle that the USA president had to even get that far. It was, at one point touch and go if the USA would support Hitler.

    Such is government propaganda.

  213. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah right, is that what happens, I click the wrong email addy in the pull-down. Sorry Rev – duplicate comment different email!

  214. Song42 says:

    Dakk 10pm
    ‘Are you suggesting that the Rev is Sensibledave and maybe even Rock in disguise?’

    Oh that made me laugh. My mind didn’t go that far…but wouldn’t that be a blinder! Lol

    ‘I understand the Campbells have been very tricky customers in the past,but surely even their kin cannot be that Machiaveillian.’

    Well, like you questioned Dakk….Who knows?

    ‘In any case maybe we would all miss them if they were gone ?’

    Yes, I think some probably would. However, Is it really ever better the devil we know?

    Sensible reminds me of the weasel. A beautiful little animal that (in Native American tradition) it’s job (because it’s good at it) is to go into or sneak into the oppositions camp or tribe, get all information needed and take it back to his own tribe for the knowledge to be used in preparation for the battle to come. So I question, Is this really so far fetched to say plant? As he tries to befriend some of you. I like of course when I see that you do no take the bait.

  215. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland tonight with 3 members of the Unionist party Jo Swinson, Adam Tomkins and James Kelly all attacking Patrick Grady SNP
    So pathetic were their attacks Patrick Grady nearly nodded off but not before the Unionist party proceeded to gnaw at each others ankles while Patrick Grady watched on extremely confident looking

    I should mention that as Liberal Democrats always do Jo Swinson claimed they were more effective an opposition than the SNP and they’re winning everything
    I have to say I watch the HOC regularly and most of the time it’s only Carmichael there chewin the cud sat behind the SNP who do most of the talking when the Tories decide to stop shouting now and again

    James Kelly just seems like he wants to take his own life so’s it’ll all be over
    Tomkins typical Tory can’t keep his smirky mouth shut while other people speak, no manners Tory

    Patrick Grady knows his stuff but didn’t have to do anything as the rest of them showed exactly what they are


  216. jfngw says:

    So the debate on STV news:

    LibDems are the only ones that can oppose the Tories, is my memory that short! Then uses HoL to prove point of how voting LibDem is better, when is the HoL elections?

    Tories are going to take 15 seats in Scotland, remember this if they fall short.

    Labour, it was James Kelly, nothing but nonsense.

    SNP, let them stay on indyref, they should be focusing on Tory policies and what you will be voting for. Need to brush aside any indyref question.

  217. Sensibledave says:

    Robert Peffers 9.43

    … a valiant attempt at a defence Robert – but you were wrong to defend Cybernats assertions regarding Mrs sensibledave’s faithfulness – and you know it – but you don’t have the class to acknowledge your error.

    Anyway, I am prepared to put it down to one dram too many and move on.

    As an aside, given that my presence seems to have caused undue discomforture in this thread, could someone point out something that i write that they feel is actually untrue above?

  218. Have a read of the following article::

    I won’t comment on the article, except to say that this only scarpes the suface of what has been going on for some years and was fully in play during IndyRef 1

  219. Westie7 says:

    @Capella full results on Aberdeenshire council website

  220. K1 says:

    I do like Patrick Grady, I can’t watch anything now on any channel, occasional iplayer but only if someone on wings really recommends a view..apart from that…nada. Glad Patrick held his own, he’s a right guid yin.

  221. Hamish100 says:

    Lets get back to the day job.

    If we attack Davidson and the tory policies ie brexit really means brexit, then surely those of a social democratic view or favouring independence will move from labour to snp or greens. If not they may still vote on the day for Scotlands self determination.

    James Kelly of Labour is their strategy coordinator! What can one say.

    Will the Daily Record move towards the SNP? The Herald seems to have gone more right wing over the past year.
    We are left with The National, Sunday Herald and maybe the SUN. All others are even more right wing tory pr. machines.

    Personally we should attack the tories and their policies and see what labour politicians agree. eg Murray.

  222. K1 says:

    ‘Anyway, I am prepared to put it down to one dram too many and move on’

    Mr Peffers, to you, doesn’t drink, ya smearing git.

  223. K1 says:

    Ian McDermott’s link archived:

  224. Dr Jim says:

    Anybody noticed Tory list MSP Annie Wells is morphing into Ruth Davidson, she wears the same clothes, she combs her hair the same, the problem is when she speaks I don’t understand a word she says, it must be funny though because she seems to make lots of folk laugh

    Oh and by the way, she says Scotlands a shit place too, as well as Murdo McClown

    Must be a Tory thing, I rather like my country, well a lot really!

  225. yesindyref2 says:

    Here’s one for starters:

    I always write in a way designed to inform and educate


  226. Capella says:

    @ Westie7 – thx – didn’t notice they’d added 1st pref votes. There’s a marked lack of info on Aberdeenshire. A pdf would have been handy instead of having to scroll though each ward in turn!

    There were 4 extra seats in Scotland in 2017. Aberdeenshire has 2 of them. I’m wondering where the other 2 are.

  227. ian murray says:

    I am worried about the postal votes
    Have the Tories found a way to fiddle them?

    Has postal voting consumption gone up in recent years?
    Allowing for more older folk there may be a reason for it but how dramatic has the increase been at the previous 4 or 5 General Elections.

    I am not usually a conspiracy Theorist but for the Unionists the Referendum represents a direct threat to the United Kingdom and they will stop at nothing to preserve the status quo.

  228. Ian mhor says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Did not other European countries repay their loan debts under the Marshall Plan to USA? I believe Germany did and also the grants they were under no obligation to repay,together with outstanding pre-war fiscal debts?

  229. K1 says:

    Chris Musson?Verified account @camusson 1h

    Here are ALL of the results for the Scottish elections by council, vote share, & vote share change on 2012. A lot of numbers but fascinating

  230. Westie7 says:

    I did go thru each ward after i saw how the tory in my ward ran away with it.

    The tory and lib dem here are really high profile on FB and in the local papers spouting inaccurate propaganda.

    Looks like it paid of for the pair of fishwives

  231. carjamtic says:

    Link meh pffft

    Gist is,£300 million to build the world’s most useless airport at Saint Helena (too windy to land) that’s a spend of around £50,000 per head of population.

    A plane managed to land there…..hurrah.


  232. Capella says:

    @ Westie7 – think I’ll do a comparison with previous election tomorrow – too late tonight. I did notice that in Aboyne and Banchory turnout is 52 – 55% which is approx 10% higher than average. But as there is no info on total electorate it’s not possible to know how many more votes that represents.

    Nor is there any info on postal votes or proxy votes. Perhaps that is still to come. I’m on the case though.

  233. Robert Peffers says:

    @K1 says: 8 May, 2017 at 11:27 pm:

    “Mr Peffers, to you, doesn’t drink, ya smearing git”.

    Yes! K1 and the guy knows it for he tried that one on before.

    I also have a very good memory and he doesn’t.

    As I pointed out already, when the argument has served it purpose then I disengage from the ones attempting to cause the disruption.

    I believe everyone, except perhaps, Rock, can see that the attacks being made have run their course and the perpetrators can be shunned for a while again – including Rock.

  234. K1 says:

    “ I always write in a way, shite designed to inform and educate provoke and irritate”

    Fixed that yesindyref2, for accuracy and truth. 🙂

  235. heedtracker says:

    As an aside, given that my presence seems to have caused undue discomforture in this thread, could someone point out something that i write that they feel is actually untrue above?

    You keep saying you’re a YESer, just like you, WoS YESers, BUT only if majority Scots are, sensibledave.

    Its a typical sneaky creepy, we’re all in this UK thing together, folksie toryboy trope. Underpinned by the most grotesque tory neo fascist stuff not seen in England since the 30’s.

    Hope you are on a cybertoryboy payroll sensible, bullshitting for free is not exactly a toryboy thing is it.

  236. yesindyref2 says:


    (doesn’t archive, shrug)

    Yes, wind shear being the problem. Not unusual all the same. Ascension Island also lost its runway recently for the A330 transport, and all that was available for the Falklands was the post transport from Cape Town.

    Story doesn’t have all the facts though, it’s a refuel stop for supplies etc. for the Falklands to replace Ascension whose runway is now unsuitable. To add to the woes the RMS St Helena had maintenance issues.

  237. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ian mhor says: 8 May, 2017 at 11:45 pm:

    “Did not other European countries repay their loan debts under the Marshall Plan to USA? I believe Germany did and also the grants they were under no obligation to repay,together with outstanding pre-war fiscal debts?”

    The Marshal Plan was a Post War plan. What I’m talking about is the Cash & Carry and its successor Lend/Lease.

    Of course Germany was the enemy in WWII so was not part of the two War debt schemes.

    Repayment of the UK war loans to the US Government was completed on December 31 2006.

    Russia only paid in part and there was some kind of deal with Russian grain and another with Russian rare minerals, (I believe Uranium). France, Commonwealth and other European nations I believed never paid or never paid in full.

    “The Marshall Plan (officially the European Recovery Program, ERP) was an American initiative to aid Western Europe, in which the United States gave over $13 billion (approximately $130 billion in current dollar value as of June 2016) in economic support to help rebuild Western European economies after the end of World War II. “

    I believe the Marshal plan Debts were repaid.

  238. K1 says:

    Watch Ivan McKee explain home immigration works to Annie Wells, and as Rev notices her ears staring to turn bright red at 1 minute 54 seconds in…through shear embarrassment…well done Ivan 🙂

  239. K1 says:

    how immigration works

  240. Wee Alex says:

    meg merrilees
    8 May, 2017 at 9:02 pm

    Meg thanks for info about UKIP standing for Tories in Bannockburn ward of Stirling Council.

    Heard rumours tonight of more info to come out on other Tory Councillors in Stirling and there Twitter accounts. Toxic lot apparently. Who did their vetting?

    The other Tory representing Dunblane with Majury is a decent guy apparently, he must wonder what he’s let himself in for.

  241. Still Positive says:

    Had a good SNP Branch meeting tonight, mainly congratulating ourselves with a great LE campaign but disappointment for 2 of our local candidates.

    Our MP stressed that we are fighting the Tories and the havoc they will reap on Scotland if we are not independent.

    We all recognised that we don’t want to send him back down to Westminster for another 5 years.

    He said that he only wants to be there for 18 months tops.

  242. Meg merrilees says:

    Don’t know who vetted he Tory councillors.
    Did you get the names from the Sunday Herald?

    Ian James,Strathtay – praised Enoch Powell;Aberdeenshire, Ron Mc Kail – shared posts from Britain First and EDL;Paisley, Neill Graham – supposedly BNP member; Keith and Cullen Donald Gatt- ‘If you can’t afford children, buy Durex”; Inverclyde, David Wilson – asked gay people to ‘out’ themselves at one of his meetings; Dalry and W. Kilbride,Todd Ferguson – taunted DutchSNP rival with WW11 pictures and references to the ‘Market Garden’ a Nazi operation that killed Dutch civilians and Fife teacher, Kathleen Leslie called Nicola ‘a drooling hag’ and ‘a wee fish-wife’

    What a lovely bunch!

    Don’t know about any others yet, but will ask the local campaign manager if he knows anything more, or about any of the others.

  243. call me dave says:

    WW11 Lend lease paid off. Details.

    Britain pays off final instalment of US loan – after 61 years

    You need to scroll down the page about halfway.

  244. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2@ 23:10,

    My own story isn’t particularly inspiring, but anyway it’s well past bedtime for most, so likely won’t disrupt this thread any more than already, so here goes:

    + Like many of my age, I grew up with the “British” thing as a given, a constant background. Pink over whole swathes of the map on the classroom wall in primary school. Just not liking the worst of the royalist flummery, all that pathetic deference.

    + I was always a proud Scot. Period. No buts. No cringe.

    + Voted for Labour’s “Assembly” in 1979 and angered by the cynical fix that prevented it happening against a (slim) majority vote, stunted cratur though it would have been. Supported the SNP pulling their support from a plainly-wabbit Labour government.

    + Discovered the Continent and alternative ways of doing things. Liked the quiet civilised way ordinary people lived, the far superior organisation of some things (eg. public transport), while recognising the different imperfections too (eg. excessive state intrusion, having to register and carry an ID card – although that often seemed to be mitigated by a certain amount of official shoulder-shrugging!).

    + Happily welcomed the UK Labour victory of 1997 and the consequent creation of a proper Scottish Parliament. (The rest of Labour’s “achievements” we all know only too well.)

    + Watched in dismay as the LibDems refused to form a coalition with the SNP after the 2007 Scottish election. LibDems had become a cosy little virtual appendage of Labour and when that changed, couldn’t rise to the role that the electoral system had virtually guaranteed them. Another early case of dog-in-manger “anyone but…” syndrome.

    + No overall winner in the UKGE of 2010, so thought this finally might be the moment for deep reform. Labour under El Gordo wavered and arrogantly flunked a coalition, and the LibDems under Clegg seemed far too comfortable aligning with the Tories. Sold their inheritance for the Biblical “mess of pottage”. A series of betrayals followed. (The student fee thing was just about understandable as political naivety but the later betrayal of the NHS by both parties in flagrant disregard of their respective manifestos was utterly unforgiveable.)

    + Got involved in a very minor way with the AV reform campaign, and was completely disillusioned by how Labour dismally failed to support it, even though it was part of their recentmost election manifesto. (Which is why it was chosen in the first place, miserable compromise though it was.) They rejected it simply because it wasn’t their move, one early sign of their suffocating self-entitlement that we all recognise only too well these days. Became seriously doubtful that Westminster would ever be capable of meaningful reform.

    + After the 2012 win, watched in disbelief when the Unionists, especially the LibDems, whose very oldest promise of all was to bring about the Home Rule they had almost enacted in 1913, cynically rejected the generous offer by Alex Salmond of a third option on “Devo-Max”. The ultimate broken promise. It was going to be all or nothing, the arrogant Unionist b*st*rds. That was the final straw. I was damned if it was going to be SFA.

    + The conduct of the eventual campaign cemented that decision. There was on side trying to be inspiring and another playing every dirty trick in the book. Went along with youngest daughter to the first public meeting to see what it was all about, and both of us found Jeane Freeman in particular very inspiring, talking about the slightly scary, somewhat heady but highly promising prospect of indy.

    The unfolding BT campaign OTOH was contemptably negative, and I imagine for me as well as for very many others that sowed a seed that later blossomed into full growth with the cynical dropping of any real promise of reform post-ref.

    + I well remember Elaine C. Smith saying during the “Concert for Yes” on the Sunday before the referendum saying something that has always been important to me, namely that it wasn’t a question of “heart vs brain” as some (mostly PSB’s) were claiming, ie. the sentiment of being independent not being supported by a hard-headed calculation that we couldn’t manage it. I never had any doubt that we could make independence work, and work for the betterment of all. It might take a short period of turbulence to get started, but that would be manageable. I found it perfectly hilarious that during theeir second TV debate, Alex Salmond had to wring a very reluctant admission from Alistair Darling that =whisper= yeeees, Scotland could actually manage on its own.

    + Post-ref, raw disappointed but like tens of thousands of others, made detailed proposals to the Smith Commission about significant changes to “cash the reform cheque” while respecting the result and thereby strengthing the Union. As we all know now, that Commission was a tawdry political fix, and the cheque bounced, resulting in a thrawn refusal post-ref to accept being played for a fool, being cheated out of something truly wonderful for a miserable handful of dust.

    + I’m not aligned with any particular party, and I don’t have any ideologican axe to grind. But I’m not going back. I just want to bequeath a fine country for my kids to want to stay in and thrive in, and share its bounties fairly with everyone else.

    If we can manage this, it will be something as truly great as the welfare state that my parents’ generation bequeathed me. Now wouldn’t that be something to be properly proud of achieving?

    So there we are. A true Robert Peffers-style epic. =grin= Hope it wasn’t too boring for the few people still up who might actually read it! =laugh=

    (Well yesindyref2, you did ask!)

  245. Clapper57 says:

    Can anyone…..anyone…..anyone…..PURLEASE…..who watched Annie Wells tonight translate WTF she was actually a) talking about..b) trying (badly) to say…cause lost am I… me nothing was lost in translation…though subtitles would have helped ….but only if words used in subtitles were different from Annie’s ….oh my GOD…….hope she is on more often….she is a GIFT ……on same level as James Kelly….separated at birth that pair…. me thinks.

  246. Meg merrilees says:

    Robert J S

    Like you I think the best thing we can pass on is a Scotland whose future is Independent, where we can make our own rules and run things to suit Scotland. It’s our generation who has that chance – how special is that!

    The youngsters growing up now don’t have all the UK baggage that we have lived through and they can’t understand why we just can’t be free like most other countries. That is unshakeable and a Scotland in Union with a Brexited UK is the worst of all possible worlds for them. We can’t let them down.

    Let’s get Indy first and worry about party politics after that milestone – it will be all change then, anyway.

  247. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Meg merrilees @ 01:37,

    “UK baggage”. Yes, that condenses the whole thing very impressively, Meg! (Though with “baggage” you were being polite, of course! =grin=)

    Yes, a decent wee country that gets on fine with all its neighbours and has a bit of well-deserved respect in the world, that would do me and the kids very nicely, thanks…

  248. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland
    Great posting Robert, thanks for the effort it was worth it.

  249. WP says:

    So to recap, SNP have the most seats in Glasgow and Edinburgh and all major cities and towns in Scotland, including my previous Labour stronghold of Falkirk. 107,000 more voted SNP then last time, and in a system designed to keep any one party from overall control, SNP are by miles the most popular party chosen at local level dealing with local issues, despite Davidson trying to turn it into a referendum debate. Yes, that’ll do for me. I can take a defeat like that anytime.
    After Dugdale is completely wiped out in June Labour in Scotland has a choice, independence or Tory rule forever, it’s that simple.

  250. Macart says:

    @Robert J Sutherland

    Bunnet doffed Robert and people should be inspired when they see folk do the right thing for the right reasons.

    The difference between conservative unionism and the yes movement’s independence is right there in your post for anyone with the eyes to see.

  251. winifred mccartney says:

    Well done RJS – could not agree more.

    Does the change in councils mean EVERY march/gathering will have to have paid stewarding???

  252. Nana says:


    Norway and the European Economic Area: Good Deal or Just an EU Rule-Taker?

    SNP candidate Brett makes ferries pledge and vows to run positive election campaign

  253. Nana says:

    Election 2017: Fears rise over what a Conservative election win will mean for the NHS

    ‘I diagnosed a child with scurvy – a condition from the Victorian ages’ – a doctor pleas for children to be the focus of Gov’t policy.
    Video here

  254. Hamish100 says:

    ian murray says:
    8 May, 2017 at 11:45 pm
    I am worried about the postal votes
    Have the Tories found a way to fiddle them?

    Mate tells me of a Tory pair going around care / nursing homes (all permitted by Tory owners) to helpfully gather the postal votes.
    We’ll known for their Christian Charitable work!

  255. Smallaxe says:

    Nana, Good Morning, it’s another nice day. Thank you for your links
    Kettle’s on! Peace Always.

  256. Ken500 says:

    Ivan McKee is brilliant.

    The Tories are not.

    The Libdems had better remember it was SNP voters who ranked then above Labour/Tory. Or they will be out next time,

    The sooner the electoral systems are FPTP in Scotland the better. It is just another unionist stitch up. Ist preference votes going in the bin. To let the regurgitated 3rd rate unionist rejects in.

  257. Nana says:

    Good morning Smallaxe, looks like it’s going to be a sunny day.

    A few more links for later!

    G A Ponsonby says
    SNP and Yes activists have four weeks to apply to be part of the QT audience in Cambridge on June 4th. We need as many as possible.

  258. Sinky says:

    Another BBC Theresa May fest on One Show TV to-night. Will they have Corbyn and Sturgeon with hubby on the sofa?

    Well done to Joanna Cherry for holding her ground against an aggressive interrupting Tompkins and Gary Robertson not allowing her to answer Tompkins falsehoods this morning on Radio Scotland GMS around 8.15 am.

  259. Contrary says:

    Aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhh, Adam Tompkins on GMS this morning, on immigration: unbelievable circular arguments that make NO SENSE. He even said to Joanna Cherry ‘you have had enough of a say’ when she tried to correct some of his nonsense. Joanna badgered about ‘numbers of immigrants’ from interviewer. Adam’s arguments involved the uk government being quite right to reduce immigration, and that appears as though it will have no impact of immigration to Scotland, the reason it is so low is the fault of the Scottish government because we are the highest taxed part of uk so no immigrants want to come here,,, does he have ANY idea what he is saying?? Well, if England wants to reduce its immigration then just raise the taxes! Idiot, moron, imbecile,,, how is that man in public office? Why are my taxes getting spent on him?

    At least Joanna got a chance to forcefully tell him, and us, that Scotland is not the highest taxed part of UK.

  260. Nana says:

    Good morning Smallaxe, earlier reply has not appeared.

    Hopefully will later as it contained further links.

    Looks like another sunny day here.

  261. Ken500 says:

    FPTP the SNP would swipe the board. Win it all. Not the hotch, potch when nothing gets done. Or the City Centre gets ruined.The City in £1.2Billion in debt. The Green collaborator gets elected back in. The Labour candidate is out too late. It should not have happened, in the first place.

    There is supposed to be a strong opposition, which can challenge. Not in Labour’s case at Westminster. They collude and vote all Tory policies through. Or abstain. The Tories could have been defeated at Westminster even with their vote share. May called an election because of electoral fraud by the Tories in 31 constituencies. Labour agreed.

    Now Scotland could be taken out of the EU against the majority vote. The ridiculous STV and D’Hondt doesn’t help. Lot at the calibre of some of the candidates. Representatives? It really is a scandal. It is not up to the Westminster crooks. It can be changed in Holyrood with an SNP majority. Alex Salmond spoke about it.

    It has nothing to do with the HoL, which has no power. It can delay twice, but not outvote.

  262. Brian Powell says:

    Interesting seeing the comments above about the BBC. It is in a similar relationship to the Brit establishment as the Scottish Labour Party was to the Tories throughout the Ind Referendum.

    Its fate will be similar, not so quickly, because of the licence tax, as the decline of Slab but the same is coming.

    It would be interesting to hear a Garry Robertson interview with a UK Gov Minister and an SNP MP. The BBC in Scotland claim they are holding the Scottish Gov to account but would they take the side of the UK Gov in such an encounter?

    I don’t watch or listen to the BBC so don’t know if this has ever happened.

  263. T.roz says:


    Can we please have a re-run of the poll “thickest Tory MSP” an injustice was done. I know Murdo won fair and square but I really do feel that people have not seen the special talents of Annie Wells, she deserves a snap poll, now might not be the time but a clear vote for Annie will show a strong and stable replacement for Ruthie when she heads south.

  264. Macart says:

    Mornin’ Nana

    A fine day it is and had a good read already. That MacWhirter piece is pretty much bang on the nail.

    There is no Ruth Davidson party and never was. There is no difference between the Conservatism of England and the Conservatism of Scotland either. Both are toxic. Both are essentially Darwinian and obsessed with self and self promotion.

    It doesn’t do warm and fuzzy. It does survival of the fittest. It discards the weak and what it perceives to be weak as essentially valueless. The weak and powerless are to be mocked and scorned, manipulated, exploited, then abandoned by turn. Y’know the old phrase ‘the price of everything and the value of nothing’?

    THAT is Conservatism and THAT is the law of their jungle.

    There is no ‘modern’ Conservatism. It hasn’t changed a jot in millenia when you truly think about it. It has always been with people and comes from the worst side of us.

    Happily we’re on the side of the angels. 😉

  265. Nana says:


    I’ve taken to calling them Bluekip after all they are one and same. Bunch of dirty rotten scoundrels the lot of them. [I’m no doubt far too polite in my name calling]

  266. Nana says:

    For anyone who hasn’t seen the latest episode of dumb and dumber

    video here

  267. orri says:

    When you have nice white families who’ve revived a local business getting thrown out of Scotland due to UK centric immigration policies based on xenophobia, particularly against melanin enhanced non christians there’s ample evidence that nothing the SNP does will guarantee the future of any immigrant who wants to set up shop in Scotland.

  268. Macart says:

    OFFS! Seriously?

    The Libdems too.

    1. Why stop the SNP?

    2. From doing what precisely?

    Firstly, they provide pretty reliable, stable government. Not spectacular, but proficient across the board, with capable bods in most positions. Indeed they have a record across most brief, which were they remotely honest, the other parties would bite their own arms off to have under their belts across the UK.

    They even have a few standout flagship policies which really do make the difference for folks in the street from childcare through to renewable energy. Finally they are more transparent and answerable than the bulk of the political class and best of all, they are accessable to Scots.

    Which, y’know, is kinda the point of a SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT.

    So, NO. No I won’t be asking them to stop doing what they’re doing anytime soon. I’m getting kinda used to the idea of having government I can rely on to deliver on most of their pledges and briefs and who put a least an effort into those which fail.

    The Libdems can birl for a vote based on that pathetic effort of a statement.

  269. Macart says:

    In fact, here’s a subtle tip for Theresa May, Jeremy Corbin and Tim Farron. (For that is who we’re really talking about in a general election)

    You want to replace the vile separatist scourge, that is the SNP? Here’s what you do.

    Come up with some pledges and policies that are acceptable, relevant, workable and affordable to the people of Scotland.

    No. Don’t thank me…etc.

  270. Tinto Chiel says:

    “THAT is Conservatism and THAT is the law of their jungle.”

    Exactly, and it has always been so. Since Thatcher hosed out the old “One Nation” Tories the mask has slipped.

    I always laugh when the Tories say Corbyn’s policies will take us back to “the politics of the 1970s”. Tory policies will soon have us back to Victorian times.

    I can just see Ruthie on her buggy, grinning for the cameras, rounding up wee boys to stuff up chimneys.

    And the MSM would call it a good thing.

  271. Ken500 says:

    Higher Tory taxes in Scotland. The Oil & Gas sector is taxed at 40% since 2016. 5 jobs Osbourne increased it 10% to 80% in 2010. The price fell 75%. It was reduced from 62% to 50% in 2014. Losing Scotland £Billions and 120,000 jobs. Scotland could have had full employment. The UK Union costs Scotland £20Billion a year. The EU cost nothing and brings £Billions of investment.

    In England/Wales not enough is raised in taxes to fund essential public services. Westminster borrows more the debt is increasing. Borrowing £500Billion for Hinkley by the sea, HS2, Heathrow and Trident, All a total waste of money with more credible alternatives.

    Rail journey’s pro rata take nearly twice as long, in Scotland, because of lack investment for years. Improvement in the North and Scotland would cut journey times and make them comparable with internal flight times. HS2 will not cut journey times throughout Britain. It will become a two tier waste of money, with more expensive fares subsides by taxpayers.

    The equivalent of £Billions of NS revenues spent in London SE. Thatcher illegally and secretly offshored the revenues. Kept it secret. A £300Billion Oil fund wasted on illegal wars financial fraud and tax evasion. HMRC not fit for purpose. The UK tax regime not enforced. The EU is stopping tax evasion by (foreign) multinationals. The reason the Tories want out of the EU? UK/US illegal wars have caused the worst migration in Europe since the 11WW. Costing European countries €Billions having to sorting out the problems.

    Brexit has increased (foreign) tax evaders based in the UK wealth by 15%. Teresa May husband’s Hedge Fund wealth has increased £Billions without being declared as a shared interest. The Tories will negotiate an EU deal which costs more for less rights. Then try to sell it as a victory. Propaganda. There is nothing surer.

  272. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    Why stop the SNP?

    Simps. ScotRef and the probably destruction of their cosy Union.

    There is only one game in town, all other politics – the day job – has been set aside, as far as Scotland is concerned, by the London parties.

    We have three Unionist parties who have only one shared policy specific to Scotland.

    I’m going to be controversial and say I think that’s a good thing. Why? Because it exposes the reality that they are not ‘Scottish’ as their names suggest. They are just branch offices of the London parties who never had policies for Scotland. It was all just a veneer and now it’s turned transparent.

    The choice is London rule or Scotland rule. There is no soft Scottish half way rule.

  273. One_Scot says:

    ‘The choice is London rule or Scotland rule’

    I like that.

  274. mike d says:

    London rule or Scotland rule. That should be on every ge poster and billboard.brilliant.

  275. Ken500 says:

    What the council election results show is not the most important factor. How many 1st preference votes went in the bin. How many (SNP?) votes. Two 1st/2nd preference votes marked with an X were disqualified. 34,000 votes. Enough to swing the result in many Councils. STV not fit for purpose. A stitch up.

  276. flux_capacitor says:

    Robert Peffers

    For starters the claim that the USA came, “To save our Bacon”, is utter claptrap and if you actually think about it you very soon draw a quite different conclusion.

    Indeed, you might also have heard of the “Tizard Mission”. In 1940 Britain surrendered all its best technology as part of the effort to persuade the US to join the war. Primarily this involved giving away the newly invented Cavity Magnetron which allowed radar systems to be installed into fighter planes, blueprints for the Variable Timed fuse, Whittles jet engine, atomic weapon theories, designs for rockets, superchargers, gyroscopic gunsights, submarine detection devices, self-sealing fuel tanks and plastic explosives.

    America’s world dominance after World War 2 is no surprise considering the amount of tech expertise they obtained (including all the German rocket science etc.)

  277. Meg merrilees says:


    Hit the nail on the head there.

    It always irks me when I hear the Scottish prefix when people are talking about Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative Parties in Scotland.
    They are branch offices – as Johan Lamont so rightly pointed out pre Murphy and Kez!

    Why even now, Kez has talked of a 1p in the £ increase on everyone’s tax in Scotland and Corbyn has promised NO tax rise.
    What do Labour voters in Scotland do now? Knowingly vote to pay more tax than the rest of the wonderful pooling and sharing UK? What IS the UK wide Labour policy on Trident?

    At least the Conservatives up here kow-tow to Team THeresa, but end up flip-flopping more times than a newly landed fish!
    Don’t forget tRuthless’s strong support for Remain and the single market – all gone on the high altar of power.
    People must not be allowed to get in the way of policies!

    As for the Lib-Dems is Willie Rennie telling Farron what to say?

    Why are all three parties putting so much energy into fighting to let another country control Scotland?

    Is it so unthinkable that one day we might have a united Scotland where every party believes in Scotland’s ability and future?

  278. Desimond says:

    SO, here we are and where do we go from here?

    Should the SNP declare a majority of MPs as a vote for an Independence Referendum 2?

    Should the SNP declare A majority of MPs as a vote for Independence itself?

    Should they just wait and see what the Brexit looks like before committing to anything? ( could also be tied to Option 1)

    Personally I’m now thinking go straight to Option 2 as I see nothing but an ignored SNP body at Westminster after this vote ( and a slapped down Holyrrod) and ultimately its stay or go…

    Nicola and SNP are entering Gordon Brown territory here where a choice has to be made..ask people for that leap of faith or pray tomorrows maybe another day

  279. Ken500 says:

    The Unionist Parties are funded by Unionists. HSBC bank is helping fund the Tories. A firm is illegally laundering funds borrowed from HSBC to the Tories. Donations from all sorts of illegal sources. Funding from outside the UK illegally not being declared. Labour is funded by Unionists donors. The Unionists Parties funds come from London HQ. The Trade Unions fund Labour. They support Trident. Keeping the poison based in Scotland. Not letting Scottish members have a vote on supporting SNP or Independence. Some leaders interfering in the Scottish electoral system.

  280. GrahamB says:

    Nana at 7:53
    This should be compulsory reading for every activist going round doors or talking to people on the street. Nail, head …

  281. Ken500 says:

    The US is $Trns in debt. They will go over a cliff if it is not reined in. Affecting the world economy. The US could afford an excellent public education and healthcare system with the money spent on the military. 26,000 American kill each other every year in gun crime. 30,000 total.

  282. Nana says:

    Not archiving in case anyone wishes to comment.

    Take note Annie Wells

    From the independent [had to copy it as they don’t seem to like archive]

    The UK jobs market is already beginning to feel the negative impact of Brexit, with shortages of European Union migrant labour in growing evidence in sectors ranging from nursing, to cleaning, to IT and accountancy.

    The latest Markit/REC Report on Jobs, a survey of recruiters, shows the availability of permanent and temporary candidates fell at the fastest pace in 16 months in April.

    This was as vacancies continued to rise “markedly” and recruiters flagged a shortage of suitable applicants for more than 60 different roles.

    Kevin Green, the chief executive of the Recruitment & Employment Confederation (REC) suggested that this growing tightness in the labour market reflected, in part, a growing unwillingness of EU citizens to come to work in the UK.

    “We have the lowest unemployment rate since 2005, and people already in work are becoming more hesitant about moving jobs amid Brexit uncertainty. Meanwhile, the weakening pound and lack of clarity about future immigration rules is putting off some EU nationals from taking up roles in the UK,” he said.

    According to the survey of 400 recruitment and employment consultancies 38 per cent reported lower permanent candidate numbers available in the month against 8 per cent who saw an increase.

    All regions saw drops in candidate availability, with the most rapid in the South of England.

    The number of temporary staff available fell at its fastest rate since the end of 2015.

    “This study makes very clear the serious impact Brexit-related uncertainty is having on our economy, and the fears employers have that it could lead to skills shortages,” said Jame McGrory of the Open Britain group.

    “Workers are unwilling to move to new jobs because they fear the damage a job-destroying, chaotic Brexit would have on our economy. Companies worry that draconian new immigration rules will make it harder for them to get the skilled labour they need, damaging both our economy and our public services”.

    ?The Markit/REC survey fits with other data suggesting a peak in EU migration levels to the UK since last June’s Brexit vote.

    New National Insurance registrations by workers from the Continent have plateaued since the vote to leave the EU, which was marked by anti-European immigrant sentiment.

    And the Office for National Statistics’ Labour Force Survey has also indicated a peak in active EU workers.

    Finally, provisional net immigration figures released in February from the ONS also point to a slower rate of EU immigration to the UK in the third quarter of last year, directly after the referendum.

    “Given that all three sources point to falling or plateauing migration flows, or indeed actually falling migrant worker numbers, we can be fairly confident that a shift is underway,” said Stephen Clarke, an analyst at the Resolution think tank said in a March report.

  283. Robert Peffers says:

    @winifred mccartney says: 9 May, 2017 at 7:39 am:

    “Does the change in councils mean EVERY march/gathering will have to have paid stewarding???”

    Well no, Winifred. The clue is in the name – “Local Council”.

    Initially it will be the decision of each individual council and ultimately that means the choice of the local people.

    Yet, having said that, if the will of the people is reflected in their choice of councillor, then the way the councils interact with Holyrood via the council’s body, “COSLA”, might mean the will of the voters will indeed then result in a democratic decision to regulate such things at a national, (Scottish), level.

    In any case the very fact that some councils begin to crack down on any bad behaviour, so often apparent in such marches, may prompt much better behaviour by marchers of all kinds everywhere when they know that councils will enforce costs on badly behaved marches.

    That’s how democracy should be and now might actually may be.

  284. Robert Graham says:

    with every national news channel giving a platform to tory – labour – libdem -UKIP & occasional mention of the greens ,the SNP come a distant last & usually with the obligatory BUT , even Unionist parties cant defend this ludicrous situation .
    All and every Poll should be stopped until the actual vote , they dont seek to reflect opinion their aim is to fashion and direct public opinion .

  285. galamcennalath says:

    Meg merrilees says:

    Don’t forget tRuthless’s strong support for Remain and the single market – all gone on the high altar of power.

    The official position of the WM Tory government (the one just disbanded, or whatever the phrase is) is defined by their 2015 general election manifest. They were committed to an EURef but also to explicitly membership of the single market (page 73).

    Any fair minded interpretation would say that meant – in the event of a Leave vote, they would keep their commitment to the single market.

    A hard Brexit should have been the territory of UKIP. The Tories made it clear their official stance was single market membership, and that appeared to mean Remain or Leave.

    Of course it all went to Hell in their quest to absorb UKIP. And Davidson loyally fell in line.

  286. Meg merrilees says:

    Another good slogan?

    Let’s make June the end of May.

  287. Socrates MacSporran says:

    In posting on here, to the Wings community, we are by and large preaching to the converted. OK, we have our wee share of trolls muddying the waters, but, mostly, we are pro-Indy.

    So, it is no use complaining about ballot papers marked with an X being discarded. Yes, I accept, that has been the accepted form of casting one’s vote for generations, but, instaed of complaining, should we not be asking: did the Scottish government and the parties do enough to clarify the different position – whereby it was use numbers in the TV system?

    Did the polling station officials explain this to would-be voters? Was how to vote in this election made clear enough to us “coffin dodgers”, who might be confused?

    The biggest danger, as I see it, to the SNP in the upcoming GE is not the opposition from the rival parties – however strong this may be. It comes from a totally-biased media.

    Is the SNP doing enough to counter this media bias? Will they go on the attack when the Tories tell their lies and are allowed to get away with it?

    And finally, to Wingers on here. The SNP’s position is to go for Indyref2 – after the election, after the final Brexit negotiations are compete and any agreement goes back to the 27 member states for ratification, but before Brexit is final and meand Brxit.

    Let’s stick with this position. Now is not the time to issue threats about “this election is about Independence”.

    The SNP needs to have a strong and stable action plan.

  288. jfngw says:

    Maybe the voters in Scotland need to realise they are not voting for Ruth Davidson but May, Fox, Johnston, Davis, Fallon, Hunt, Grayling, etc. Davidson has no role in the WM government, in fact as she has no role at WM and not party leader I’m not sure why she is given such exposure, surely we should be hearing from some of the elected Tory MP’s.

    Remember voting Tory/Labour/LibDem is effectively voting for subjugation.

  289. AndyH says:

    @ Desimond

    I’m with you on that one.

    Let’s bring it to a head and see if the Yoons have the guts to counter it.

  290. Meg merrilees says:


    Don’t forget, Scotland is tRuthless’ fiefdom.
    She’s probably less toxic than TM up here and showing a lot of TM reinforces the branch status of Scottish Cons.

    Wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out that Colonel Davidson has insisted on being in charge of strategy up here too.

  291. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    Here’s that link

    Interesting the graphs of Tory toxicity. Among NO voters it’s dropped from about 30% to 15%.

    Understandable because firstly Davidson has been campaigning as anything but the Conservatives, hiding the identity, and secondly because they have become that one issue NO party in Scotland.

    The interesting group are that 15% who see the Tories for what they are, but aren’t YES … yet.

  292. Breeks says:

    Just seeing the eye watering divergence between 18 to 24 year old support for the SNP and the over 65 year old support for the Tories.

    Maybe the SNP should have a “British Fortnight” publicity stunt where our elderly are treated as they might be if the lived in England, or indeed Scotland if anything happened to Holyrood. Paying for prescriptions, paying for careers, no bus passes… Just a fortnight “parity” to illustrate life under Tory rule.

    Of course I’d rather they didn’t, because that would be grossly unfair to pensioners who do support Indy.

    It augers well for the future, however it would be interesting to find out whether the Tory support amongst the elderly is a lifelong affliction, or something which creeps up on you with old age.

    Perhaps it’s just the simple truth that change frightens some folks the older they get, and Indy is seen as a big change.

  293. Meg merrilees says:

    Interesting statistics.

    All the election figures e.g. 37,491 spoilt papers = 1.9%; 527,369 Postal votes =27.4% !!!!!

  294. meg merrilees says:


    I think 18-24 year olds look at who will be better for their future – simples really.
    Tuition fees, job prospects, European travel and lots more!

  295. Song42 says:

    Thanks for the links Nana. I can see it’s going to another busy day. Will I ever get out the house I wonder! 😉

  296. heedtracker says:

    meg merrilees says:
    9 May, 2017 at 10:29 am

    Old folks don’t like change. Its the same everywhere, well most don’t. Same with the rich.

    Tory core.

  297. heedtracker says:

    And finally, to Wingers on here. The SNP’s position is to go for Indyref2 – after the election, after the final Brexit negotiations are compete and any agreement goes back to the 27 member states for ratification, but before Brexit is final and meand Brxit.”

    Socratic stuff Socrates. But when will Brexit actually mean Brexit?

    When our EU passports are no longer valid for travel use? Unless PM May 2.0 does cut a freedom of movement deal, which they clearly wont get.

    When our food prices just never seem to stop going up? Have you seen how much more expensive food is now than from last Autumn?

    I know that I know nothing.


  298. Scott says:

    Can someone give me a link to Annie Wells on BBC disaster last night.

  299. Desimond says:

    @Socrates , @heedtracker

    And finally, to Wingers on here. The SNP’s position is to go for Indyref2 – after the election, after the final Brexit negotiations are compete and any agreement goes back to the 27 member states for ratification, but before Brexit is final and meand Brxit.”

    This logic actually makes no sense in reality for the Indy campaign.

    We are saying “Its stay in UK with a Tory Govt ( for a long time at very least) with a powerless represenatation from Scotland and while that’s a definite…lets WAIT a while to see what the EU want to throw back as a titbit and THEN decide if that Tory leadership isn’t what we want as a nation!”

    Its like saying “You will be lucky to have the leftover crumbs from a mouldy old loaf if your good and do what your told or you can go make your own fresh loaf today!”

    I see Brexit as THE EXCUSE the SNP\Greens need to make that charge through the exit UK door, but now it seems we are appointing it to become the bouncer in front of our UK exit.

    If the arguments are this is to ensure validity etc then I counter the UK Govt will never validate any attempt to leave so put it in a manifesto NOW and declare it worldwide.

  300. Robert Peffers says:

    @Contrary says: 9 May, 2017 at 8:29 am:

    “Aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhh, Adam Tompkins on GMS this morning, on immigration: unbelievable circular arguments that make NO SENSE.”

    Aye! Contrary, Tompkins is nothing more than a conduit through which the BBC passes Tory Party soundbites to their broadcast antenna and onwards to people’s TV sets.

    He is no more than a DVD full of other British Nationalist’s soundbites. He hasn’t got a thought-through original idea in his whole body.

    The BBC use him like an DVD they can plug in when they need to fill in for real political guests. A bit like the canned laughter and the canned applause they used following on from the days when there was a BBC guy standing out of camera shot with Flash cards he held up to the studio audience with prompts like, “Applause now”, “boo now”, or “laughter now”.

  301. Nana says:

    @Song42 You are welcome. Try and enjoy the sunshine today!

    @Scott See link at 9.09am

  302. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Robert Peffers

    {In any case the very fact that some councils begin to crack down on any bad behaviour, so often apparent in such marches, may prompt much better behaviour by marchers of all kinds everywhere when they know that councils will enforce costs on badly behaved marches.}

    The OO dealt with that in the dim & distant past & the get out clause , they are only responsible for those marching on the road & not for those people tagging along on the pavement ( band followers ) ect . Another disclaimer OO men/women on the pavement causing problems Sash on or Of are private citizens & are dealt with by the Police as such .

  303. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’m not a fan of FPTP as I think it is crude and insensitive. However, I think the current stitch-up we are lumbered with was almost certainly designed in fear of the binary choice we now have between Yoonion in isolationist and fundamentally ‘Tory’ Greater England, or direct democracy in an independent Scotland.

    Karl Popper on democracy
    From the archives: the open society and its enemies revisited

  304. heedtracker says:

    Desimond says:

    Its probably not going to be nation wide symbolic Brexit Day celebration, union jack bunting street parties, Lancaster bomber and Spitfire flybys, half cut hysterics like Fuhrage and Dr Nuttall jumping about on a Hyde Park stage, with adoring UKIP and tory roasters also draped in giant union jacks. It could though.

    Maybe a sneak like sensibledave might like to make himself useful and give us his thoughts on when exactly the Brexit catastrofuck will be historically finalised, Mayhem’s crew signing something in Downing street, 2020,21,22 etc, a Brexit Declaration of Independence.

  305. Dan Huil says:

    “medium-to-thick” tories more stupid than they think?

  306. mike d says:

    Desimond 9.53am. I wholeheartedly agree with your option 2 here. We already have 56 mp’s in Westminster,and are totally ignored . what would we be like after Brexit(shudders).take the bull by the horns and declare an snp majority at the GE a mandate for immediate independence.

  307. Fred says:

    What chance Murdo Fraser contemplating giving up Holyrood to win (at long last) an election for a Westminster seat?

    The odds might be good but the goods are decidedly odd!

  308. Fred says:

    How would these proposed charges go down in Shettleston Nana?

    Good to see U back in harness!

  309. orri says:

    Macart, the making up pledges isn’t the problem. It’s not honouring them or, in some case, even trying to do so.

  310. Song42 says:

    Robert Peffers.

    I wrote you back last night but it seemed to fly into the winds, hopefully towards some of the uneducated who actually believe as they always have that they are ‘helping Scotland out’ and we should be bowing to our knees!

    A big THANK YOU once again. Much gratitude. 🙂

  311. robert dark says:

    Wings Over Scotland: It’s funny because it’s true.

  312. Brian McHugh says:

    Comment on the BBC HYS on the Tory’s ‘pledge’ on Energy Bills… “What is the point, when there will not be an opposition to hold the Tory’s to their promises.”

    Says it all.

  313. Dr Jim says:

    The United Nations supports Scotlands right to self determination through the democratic means of a referendum
    As we speak the European Union position is the same and is being actively encouraged by that parliament as the best option for Scotland

    If Scotland were to decide to adopt a different route to Independence however, that support may change to a negative
    The position of the SNP is and has always been Independence must be achieved through the ballot box of a referendum
    Although other methods may be available the SNP would not countenance them as they would leave themselves open to accusations of dictatorship and the evidence shows there would be considerable backlash against such actions not least from the British government itself

    The British would enjoy nothing more than putting troops on the ground in Scotland in exactly the same way they did in Ireland and dissolving the Scottish parliament in a heartbeat then imposing direct rule from Westminster

    Game over!

  314. Robbo says:

    Nana says:
    9 May, 2017 at 11:31 am
    Two more before I leave you

    First oil begins flowing from Montrose Area scheme


    That’s probably only a start. I remember reading somewhere a while back that a massive oil field has been discovered on our territory again that is massive compared to what we’ve already extracted being held in reserve.
    They haven’t finished raping and pillaging us yet. Along with our other natural resources that they need like water,power etc.Until they’ve finished extracting all the can,then they will not have a care for this false union!

    We must not let them pillage us any more!

  315. Scott says:

    Sorry O/T

    This is all bad news for Scotland???

    Oil has begun flowing from a North Sea field which is part of a wider project aimed at unlocking 100 million barrels of additional reserves.

    Also this.

    Lancaster oil field size verified.
    Report estimates recoverable volumes of up to 523million barrels.

    I have a funny feeling that this is one thing that RuthieTank and her boss TM want to hang on to Scotland at all cost.

  316. Brian Powell says:

    Interesting on the ‘detoxification’ of the Tories and the graph showing drop in toxicity among No voters from 30% to 15%.

    I would say very, very few of them have ever had direct rule by a Tory Gov. They see it from a distance while they are protected in Scotland.

  317. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Brian Powell @ 11:57,

    Well, there is their hypocrisy in a nutshell.

    There “oughter be a way” that Tory voters get the policies for which they vote perpetrated upon them while leaving the rest of us unscathed! =grin=

  318. Breastplate says:

    Dr Jim,
    That’s all very well and good and I agree up to a point.
    As long as we are allowed to travel the path of democratic change, everything is as it should be, and here’s the question, what if Westminster decides that Scotland no longer requires a parliament after voting for independence and that democracy doesn’t really count if your Scottish?
    Would the SNP countenance UDI under these circumstances.

    I say let us keep our options open, as the political climate is ever changing, we never know where it can lead us for sure.

  319. Doug says:

    O/T – The latest results of the school tests makes sombre reading, while I’m well aware this is a complex issue to deal with across the board – but it has given the unionist parties a stick to beat the SNP with. Particularly as the First Minister asked to be judged on education in the past.

    Those who are involved with Education and frequent these boards what steps are being taken and I guess just as importantly what are the problems?

  320. CameronB Brodie says:

    Dan Huil
    That’s all fine and well but how does one measure the girth of a nation? 😉

  321. heedtracker says:

    High value people are so much nicer too. Psycho tories at the helm and SLabour are losing to them, election after election.

    Iain Duncan SmithVideo duration 1:05
    ‘Low-value, low-skilled people let in’
    Jump to media player
    09 May
    From the section
    UK Politics

  322. geeo says:

    Greens in Jeremy Hunts constituency not standing candidate and labour and lib dems not endorsing nor campaigning for their candidates, all are supporting the local GP who took Hunt to court and beat him.

    Labour join a Progressive alliance against the Tories in England, but join a unionist alliance with the Tories, agianst the SNP in Scotland.

  323. geeo says:

    Oops…forgot the archived link to the above…

  324. CameronB Brodie says:

    There’s more than a whip of social Darwinist thought in referring to humans as “low-value”. What a disgraceful thing for a public servant to say. Fascist wank!

  325. CameronB Brodie says:

    Whiff obvs. but whip sort of works.

  326. Macart says:

    Dear God!

    Just caught the clip of IDS.

    I posted this earlier:

    “There is no difference between the Conservatism of England and the Conservatism of Scotland either. Both are toxic. Both are essentially Darwinian and obsessed with self and self promotion.

    It doesn’t do warm and fuzzy. It does survival of the fittest. It discards the weak and what it perceives to be weak as essentially valueless. The weak and powerless are to be mocked and scorned, manipulated, exploited, then abandoned by turn. Y’know the old phrase ‘the price of everything and the value of nothing’?

    THAT is Conservatism and THAT is the law of their jungle.”

    I think that clip counts as a QED moment.

  327. manandboy says:


    “Facebook has stepped up attempts to build its influence as a political tool by giving jobs to former senior Conservative and Labour campaign officials.

    The Guardian has learned Facebook’s recruits have inside knowledge of how the major parties’ general election campaigns are likely to work. They include a former Downing Street adviser to David Cameron, a former aide to Ed Balls and a social media expert who worked with the Conservatives’ election strategist Lynton Crosby.

    On Monday, the company confirmed it employed staff, “whose role it is to help politicians and governments make good use of Facebook”. Campaign strategists for both Donald Trump and the LeaveEU campaign have said that reaching voters on Facebook has become pivotal to election success.

    Both Labour and the Conservatives have teams dedicated to targeted Facebook advertising and are thought to be preparing to hand the San Francisco company well over £1m in the coming weeks.

    There has been growing concern about the ability of politicians to track the interests of Facebook users in order to “micro-target” voters. There are 31m registered Facebook UK.”
    (The Guardian)

  328. Capella says:

    March of the Immortal Regiment over on RT at the moment. Everyone carries a photo of a relative who died in the Great Patriotic War.

  329. heedtracker says:

    CameronB Brodie says:
    9 May, 2017 at 12:41 pm
    There’s more than a whip of social Darwinist or whiff? It is a very tory creepy classification of human beings.

    More lunchtime Labour weirdness. Independent, Jezza’s an odd lad.

    NewsUKUK Politics
    Progressive Alliance: Labour Party expels long-standing activists for organising bid to oust Jeremy Hunt
    Activists who have been Labour members for 50 years punished for uniting with Greens and Lib Dems behind NHS doctor seen as best chance of ousting Health Secretary

    May Bulman @maybulman 17 mins ago

    Caught the end of BBC Lunchtime Politics, Christian Party passionate debaterising nuke weapons with Owen Jones, not one mention of how England is smart enough to NOT stash their WMD’s anywhere near them.

    Got that from Prometheus, at the end.

    God squad don’t seem too troubled by Trident but gay people really get them wound up.

    Its a psycho’s world.

  330. Dr Jim says:


    The SNP wouldn’t consider UDI under any circumstances
    mainly because it wouldn’t be recognised as it would still be part of the British state for the reasons I gave earlier
    and if they tried it Scotland would no longer have a Scottish political party it would be considered a terrorist organisation and portrayed in that way around the world

    For us in Scotland the SNP is the only viable peaceful route to Independence with the ability to circumvent the plans of the British Government using their own legislation powers against them, if we lose that SNP buffer Scotland will go back 40 years to a desert because the British will strip us bare and by the time they finish there’ll be nothing left to be Independent with

    The SNP have done a great thing by playing the game of Westminster while at the same time managing the country and indeed improving everything, this has been no mean feat considering the British have been trying to thwart them at every turn to make them look bad to the electorate so they can have the Unionist party back in power,and when I say Unionist I mean any of them, they’re all one British cabal who just take turns at improving the riches of their particular business interests

    Some posters have made comments about us oldies in regard to selfish voting, well they’re quite right and the over 65s are the worst, I know because they all seem to live next to me
    If you offer the average pensioner an extra 10 Bob a week they’ll sell out their whole family unfortunately, even if they’re not poor pensioners

    So what do you do, well either offer them 10 Bob more than the Tories or prove to them they’re going to be 10 Bob worse off

    They’ll rush to the polls in their droves to vote for Independence then because it’s not the Independence they care about it’s whether they’ll be worse or better off

    Maybe if we changed the narrative from the word Independence to something like

    There’s going to be a “Transfer of Sovereignty” from London to Edinburgh, does that sound less scary?

  331. Faltdubh says:

    The polling data from the council election is fascinating, and whilst it’s been a reasonably decent showing from the SNP ; there are concerns no doubt mostly in the rural heartlands of the party, and the Labour vote holding reasonably steady in East Lothian, Invercylde, Rutherglen etc.

    And there are the independent candidates as well e.g Angus saw the SNP vote drop, but there are 8 independents there too -second biggest number of councilors. I know 2 Greens who voted for two independent candidates first followed by the SNP etc, and I know of people who didn’t vote.

    Although comparing elections as Labour seem to be trying to do ‘SNP decline’, ‘peak Nat’ etc is misleading as if you were to counter the current election and the last one, the SNP vote has gone up in every on e.g comparing the GE, Holyrood and council ones since 2010, 2011, and 2012.

    If anything the result should be looked upon positively by the SNP. They can see from polling that certain areas are vunerable and no doubt will be focusing on winning these areas whilst the Tories can crow for a few weeks. You would be naive to think the SNP will romp this, but if they can win something like 50 odd if not more, 45 even seats in June it would be another terrific result and how sweet it would be to hear the Scots Tories in the early hours on the 9th of June saying ‘Ah, but our vote went up’ ‘Labour stopped us from winning’ etc when the SNP manage to retain many of their current seats.

    Not that I imagine many on here need encouraging, but these results should certainly be the motivation to get out their and do something to help the SNP win as many seats as they can.

    I’ll use football analogies over bar charts and go with –

    GE 2015 – A 6-0 hammering of the opposition.

    Holyrood 2016 – an excellent 4-1 win. Only sour point was shutting off after the 4th goal and allowing the opposition a last minute consolation goal (no majority).

    Council 2017 – a 3-1 win. Whilst we were favourites, the opposition were geared up for this, been in training for months and we’ve had European games (ok I’m droning on a bit noo) and we managed to win the match the home leg, 3-1. They have an away goal so they still have a chance to even out, but we will be energised for the second leg in a month’s time.

  332. Robert Graham says:

    all that’s required to focus people’s mind on exactly what the tory party are and what they stand for is a few billboards with .

    what do – Oxfam – the UN – the Red Cross have in common ?

    every one of them have criticised THE TORY party

    yes thats YOUR PARTY RUTH – OWN IT .

  333. heedtracker says:

    SNP get a mention Graun wise, “Hang around long enough, keep an eye on that second election, and it becomes clear that what you’re seeing is the strange death of Labour Wales.”

    Massive hype for BBC One Show tonight, with special guests Mr and Mrs May, one’s a hedge fund multi millionaire, the other’s going to be so lovely, nice, likeable, strong and stable, its a tv appearance worth a few extra points at least, in what is clearly going to be one of the closest and tightest elections in living memory:D

  334. Desimond says:

    @Dr Jim

    All well and noble and good but as Breastplate said, what happens when Westminster say No more referendums or even no more Holyrood. Then what..SNP claim its doing what the people “might” want by staging an unauthorised referendum.

    So the SNP\Greens should say “If we get most MPS in Scotland we claim the right to a referendum if we think Brexit is a pretty rubbish deal but we wont actually know for quite a while and to be honest we already don’t trust Govt figures and also a lot will be conjecture and spin no doubt regardless but least we are ticking some proper box right even though we already are a stand alone country and not a region or a colony?”

    At which point do you see Westminster Tories saying “Oh hello SNP, sure have a second referendum with our best wishes?”. Personally I’m sure the opposite will me mentioned soon enough…even before polling begins.

    If you wait for your enemy to do something nice on your behalf, you may very well be waiting a long time.

    I don’t see why the SNP don’t just say “Vote for a SNP MP if you want Independence..if you don’t, choose another Unionist and we will just remain at Holyrood knowing Westminster is our lord and master in your eyes”

  335. ian mhor says:

    @ Robert Peffers
    @ call me dave

    It’s straying O/T I know –
    The reason Britain accrued debt prior to the Marshall Plan and was repaying debt, is because it was debt – Lease lend was just that, not fiscal debt. Of course if you don’t want to return it, then it must be bought. So that was a private debt accrued by Britain, not a result of Lease Lend.

    Similarly, Cash & Carry. No cash, no carry. It was a private debt. Britain borrowed to buy. So there is nothing unique or laudable about Britain paying off debt and ‘others didn’t’ The others didn’t take out those loans.
    More laudable is paying off what you were under no obligation to do. Which Germany did together with pre-war debt.

    Anyway it’s O/T so any corrections/observations can have the last word and I’ll take it on board.

    Where it’s relevent, is that the UK has always been fiscally incompetent, warmongering and had a xenophobic outlook.
    Europe had an economic plan to rebuild after the war- the UK didn’t. Europe demilitarised & created the ESCS- the UK wanted nothing to do with it and militarised and threw away aid money. The EEC was created and it took the 70’s before the UK decided it was a good idea.

    We even had had a referendum to stay in after barely joining. Because, it apparently wasn’t socialist enough for Labour and The Tories had negotiated a bad deal. The Tories hated giving up their Sovereignty and Enoch Powell was whipping up a right wing frenzy. Sound familiar?
    Barely even in touch with a rebuilt Europe economically and it was a suicidal Labour who split its party between In/Out.
    Fortunately it was a landslide remain vote.

    Then we had the “Euro” designed to buffer boom & bust economies – well the UK decided it was having none of it, put all its eggs in finance and went boom & bust, head first into a banking collapse.

    Now Brexit… ad-infinitum. We have been two decades behind Europe for 60 years. It’s not changing anytime soon.

  336. Proud Cybernat says:

    The One Show Tonight.

    “Now Mrs May. A little surprise for you on tonight’s show. We have a special guest on tonight’s show who has always wanted to meet you…”

    In walks Nicola Sturgeon.

    Okay – I’m allowed tae dream.

  337. Bob Mack says:


    Education is far different to the time I went to school. Back then I had teachers who had in the main served during the war. They tended to be stern disciplinarian intolerant of failure or lack of effort. I think many of us will recognise blackboard dusters flying past our heads. I once had 18 strokes of the tawse over an hour period of maths for failing to grasp the concept of equations.

    Today there is no such incentive to work in this way. Whilst the Scottish government may well set a curriculum, it is primarily down to the local Councils and more especially the teachers to teach that curriculum.

    Demands on teachers is ever higher and many councils have not passed on additional monies supplied for education to the appropriate bodies.

    The life of a teacher today is not an easy option. Parents are (I feel) overly sensitive about their children and this has repercussions for the teachers who now face increasing complaints about themselves from every quarter. It becomes a thankless task.

    You could improve education overnight but I suspect though many of us have ultimately emerged unscathed or indeed enhanced by our education, we may not like to see the young travel the same road.

  338. heedtracker says:

    Okay – I’m allowed tae dream.

    How on earth does the left, such as it is in England counter this kind of BBC tory propaganda?

    Its incredibly effective. BBC Politics lunchtime show has a Scottish ligger going round England with a bag of balls and a perspex box with a yes or no choice for his balls. Today he was asking , do you vote Jezza and ofcourse it was a massive No way. Jezza is so screwed, its a wonder he can be bothered just going through the motions.

  339. Artyhetty says:


    Good comment DrJim. Scotland would be a rogue country, there for the picking, and attacked violently if UDI was declared. Now that the eyes of the EU27 are much more open to the UKGov mechanisms at work to deny democracy in Scotland, a second referendum will be watched much more closely beyond these shores, or is that wishful thinking.

    No idea what we can do to persuade over 65s that they should vote for a positive future for their kids and grandkids, and not for a tory oppressive regime for the foreseeable. Can they bring themselves to vote for a country where the people have at the very least a decent standard of life and can thrive, rather than slave for the few mega greedy, mega rich, selfish troughers.

  340. Jack Murphy says:

    Nana said at 6:45 pm last night:
    Bloody bbc

    Don’t pay the licence fee!

    Thanks—I was out last night but glimpsed your post at work this afternoon.
    The article begins:
    “The BBC as the state broadcaster should set the standard in impartial and factual reporting of election results, but in the case of the Scottish Local Council elections it has failed on both counts……”

    Haven’t paid the BBC Tax for 5 years. 🙂

  341. Breastplate says:

    Dr Jim, the international community will not call an independent Scotland a terrorist country under any circumstances.

    An official Declaration of Independence will be needed in any event after a successful referendum. How else do we announce to the world that we are ready to be treated as equals. That is Scotland’s job, nobody else’s.
    Perhaps we will be doing this without the agreement of our neighbour or perhaps not.

    A Declaration of Independence is not something to be sneered at but something that is in fact a necessity for an independent Scotland. How we arrive at that juncture for this declaration is unclear.

  342. Dr Jim says:


    The SNP can’t say vote for us and we’ll be Independent because that wouldn’t be legal and you and I know the British would immediately refuse to recognise it

    The SNP are trying to do something that’s never been done before to the British and that’s to detach ourselves without any body dying and if you try it any other way it could very well lead to that outcome, and wouldn’t the British just love it

    Already we see when our political leaders in Scotland are on screen we hear them make their pitches unhindered but when it comes to Scotlands overwhelmingly democratically elected First Minister we very often get a voice over telling us what the media say she said (usually toodleoo the noo)

    I remember well when this was a British decision to silence the Irish question on Gerry Adams when you weren’t allowed to hear his voice and it was reinterpreted by the BBC

    Not one of the other countries who have gained their Independence from the UK have ever been on the phone asking to come back mainly due to the harm that was done to them under British occupation and the damage the British continued to inflict upon them even after those countries left

    I’m afraid if you’re looking for another peaceful solution it’ll be hard to find and I’m positively sure it’s already been examined and found to be fraught with even more problems than we already have

    There is of course the non peaceful solution which has already this week been threatened by the OO who have now publicly stated they are prepared to be a para military organisation if the SNP succeed in a referendum
    I personally don’t believe this will happen in a home grown sense I believe if at all it would be imported from where we get all the sectarian baggage we’re lumbered with now
    and again give the British the excuse they’re looking for

    Would it were another way I’d be first in the queue to sign up to try but I’m afraid we’re in the position we’re in and the only way out is democratic voting in a referendum

    We’re up against the entire Unionist machine, every TV channel, every newspaper, the religious nut jobs and last but not least our own greedy selfish pensioners (not our lot obviously) the other lot

  343. Keep up the good work Kezia ….everyone gains except you ! Doh !

  344. jfngw says:

    Had a look at the literacy skills report that the BBC were headlining. It seems to be based on subjective assessment by individual teachers, the numbers vary widely across Scotland (26% variations in some measurements) and the methods across authorities are not the same. It provides a rough comparison from previous surveys but using these numbers for exact data is a bit dubious.

  345. schrodingers cat says:

    the problem for the unionists tying “scotlands desire” for indyref2 to election results is that elections are like buses, you wait for ages then 3 come along at once 🙂

    any drop in this GE by even a bawhair from 56mps at 49.6% of the vote will be jumped on by the yoons as a reason to continue to refuse a section 30, (without officially refusing the section 30)
    it is always the last election which trumps all others so any imagined tory success in the local elections will be relegated into distant historical irrelevence.

    but we are close now, about 49-50% support for YES, the effects of a hard brexit will increase support for YES and if and when treeza storms out of negotiations in sept this year, the argument about knowing the results of these negotiations before holding indyref2 will die at the same moment.

    further refusals to grant a section 30, based on the expected results from junes GE will only play into our hands.

    so we bide our time, watch as support for yes rises above 50% due to the catastrophic outcome from a sudden and hard brexit and when the time is right, nicola tells treeza to grant a section 30 or she will dissolves holyrood and, if the result is greater than 50% SNP support in the constituency vote, Nicola will use this holyrood election result to declare UDI

    we are down to the wire now, keep the faith folks, we will win this, the planets are aligning

  346. desimond says:

    @Dr Jim

    I fully appreciate your thoughts and understand the logic but I have no faith they road will remain open post this election.

    The Tory Government claim it is for a mandate giving them approval to do whats in Britains interest..this will be expanded as necessary or as they see fit.

    Apathy awaits around the corner and although I appreciate the advances made over the last 30 year or so, I fear we know face a bleak outcome as far as Westminster and Holyrood are concerned.

    I believe all those who left the Empire demanded it, Im not sure how we demand it while asking politely given current Tory ethos.

  347. HandandShrimp says:

    Criticism of education and schools seems to be as perennial as the grass.

    Literacy and numeracy is as much the responsibility of the parents as it is the school. We all sat with our kids going over the reading homework and arithmetic homework. It was painful at times but we encouraged and helped and ensured that our kids completed the homework and kept up.

    However, we do have a massive challenge in that we have a generation that have parents that were not all that engaged in education when they went to school and take an adversarial approach to teachers suggesting that they might help in their children’s application to learning. No system will easily correct a sub-culture that simply will not engage. This is a social issue not a political or administrative issue. Just about all educational systems work if the parents and children are willing participants.

  348. Chick McGregor says:

    “The SNP can’t say vote for us and we’ll be Independent because that wouldn’t be legal and you and I know the British would immediately refuse to recognise it ”

    Kosovo did a UDI without even a specific electoral mandate and without a referendum The UK Government was one of the very first to recognise Kosovo.

    Serbia declared it ‘illegal’ and took them to the ICJ (via the UN). The ICJ ruled that Kosovo had not acted illegally.

    I dare say, like the Serbian Constitutional Court, the Supreme Court would be wheeled out to declare it ‘illegal’ but the only judicial final arbiter on the matter is the ICJ.

    I think the UK Government would find it extremely difficult to refuse to recognise a democratic mandate from the Scottish people, whether by referendum or a single-issue GE. Even ultra-rightists like May.

    Another question, is whether the English population themselves would tolerate something so blatantly undemocratic.

    In such a scenario, I also think it quite likely that the EU would, quite justifiably, suspend Brexit negotiations until the situation regarding Scotland is clarified.

    Obviously, the referendum approach with London agreement is best.

    But if London continues to refuse one or if they refuse to recognise a Yes result in one held without agreement, what do you suggest then?

    Just forget about normal levels of self determination for Scotland?

    Nobody wants UDI, nobody thinks it is a sane option, but are we dealing with a sane UK Government?

    Time will tell.

  349. Brian Powell says:

    So Tim Farron gets a negative response from a Tory in St Andrews to the a question about Independence and the Courier puts it up as a video attached to the article, it will probably be on the news too.

    The response? Nicola Sturgeon should get a kicking. The UK is a shit country with a lot of shit people in it.

  350. marydoll says:


    just been at a celebration of Europe Day in edinburgh. Ironic or what?
    BBC and STV bothe there. How will they manage to report it as SNP bad.

    The people I spoke to were all glad to be here in Scotland but were scraed for their future. The lady interviewed by BBC ( G Campbell) , could not really comment on air as she is a guest of UK


  351. Big Jock says:

    I still think this GE should be used as an indi referendum. Bring the battle to Ruth and her cronies. Electing 50 Mp’s to the SNP leaves us as we were, but with the media claiming victory for the no side.

    It’s sensible not to get dragged into someone else’s agenda, but is it clever.The SNP will no doubt continue on their pre-GE timetable after the GE. However sometimes changing to reflect changing circumstances is smarter than continuing down a road to prove a point.

    If the SNP announced this GE was a referendum on independence, it would pull the rug from under May’s feet. It would motivate the yes side and turn what is an English GE into a fight for our nation. If we fail yes it’s lost and possibly forever. But if we do nothing and still fail we will regret this opportunity. At some point we have to have our Bannockburn moment. It can’t wait forever or it will turn into Culloden.

  352. Breeks says:

    Dr Jim says:
    9 May, 2017 at 11:44 am
    The United Nations supports Scotlands right to self determination through the democratic means of a referendum
    As we speak the European Union position is the same and is being actively encouraged by that parliament as the best option for Scotland…..

    That’s correct as far as it goes, but it isn’t the whole story.

    Scotland is not typical of counties seeking to declare their independence. We already have legally defined borders, culture, heritage, and societal institutions. We have written documentary evidence of a time when Scotland’s sovereignty was affirmed by its people and recognised by the Pope. We have 700 years of provenance relating to that sovereignty, some of it very recent such as the 2011 AXA case at the UK Supreme Court which recognised the limit of its jurisdiction over Scottish sovereignty. We have undisputed and uncontested sovereignty of an Independent Scotland right up until the extremely shabby and dubious circumstances of the Union, whereafter Scotland’s sovereignty has been “magically” relegated to a weird historical anachronism which can be set to one side when administering UK Parliamentary Sovereignty.

    In parallel with Scotland’s history of undisputed sovereignty, we have a similar parallel provenance for the dubious and unlawful Act of Union, which wasn’t sound in the first place, was only instigated after bribery, corruption and military coercion, but even now survives Act-busting legislation which breaks the spirit and intent of the Act of Union. That gives us provenance for 400 years of undisputed sovereignty followed by 300 years of corrupt and unlawful subjugation of sovereignty.

    Hell’s teeth, the UN declared Scotland’s Declaration of Arbroath a UNESCO Memory of the World. That is the very document which saw Scotland’s 14th Century UDI secure international recognition.

    If Scotland was some banana Republic where a bunch of disgruntled hoodlums carried out a coup and demanded International recognition, they would quite rightly be passed through one filter after another to establish whether they had any legitimacy, whether their actions were lawful, whether their actions were representative of their people, and whether the country had the capacity to sustain itself and govern itself. In short, was it a country worthy of recognition?

    The UN upon receiving a UDI has to resolve whether the country declaring itself Independent has the credentials to so, the capacity to define itself, define its borders, define its constitution and how it is governed.

    In Scotland’s case however, we can shortcut through all of that. We can tick every box. We have long established culture, definition, and Borders, and precedence for Independent, sovereign status. Scotland is already defined.

    The problem with most UDI’s is they have to define and legitimise a country which has never existed. Their Declaration of Independence has to create a country from scratch.

    We don’t. A Scottish UDI doesn’t have to create a country, merely revoke a faulty and flawed Act of Political Union. We don’t need to create the country, just discredit a document which has conned Scotland out of its sovereign independence from the day it was signed.

    I repeat however, I know that a Scottish UDI is a red rag to a bull, BUT, there are degrees of “UDI”. As I have said before, by citing the legitimacy of Scottish sovereignty being irreconcilable with UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, we could with all due probity suspend Scotland’s constitutional situation, and place Scotland in constitutional flux, neither Independent nor subjugated by Westminster, but in a state of transitional stasis pending a democratic plebiscite to decide where our transitional status transits us to.

    Not only do I fail to see how or why Scotland would not be recognised, I genuinely believe that the UK, or whatever was left of the UK would have very narrow and paltry grounds to contest Scotland’s sovereign legitimacy.

    Countries do not have to be democracies to be recognised, but any democratic deficiency in Scottish constitutional sovereignty could and would be resolved by the plebiscite, and the legitimacy of Scotland’s sovereign independence would be a humble formality.

    Whether it would be accepted domestically by the Union Jack knuckle draggers is a fair question, however I believe a sensitive and considered Plebiscite campaign which was genuinely informative and dispassionate is the only way to settle the issue of Scotland’s constitution finally and for good. Faux referenda like 2014 solve nothing, and never will.

  353. Brian Powell says:


    If the woman was to frightened to comment on air then that already tells us about the UK.

  354. heedtracker says:

    Nobody wants UDI, nobody thinks it is a sane option, but are we dealing with a sane UK Government?”

    UDI’s not an option.

    Sane UK gov and sane BBC? battering the life out of Jezza and any actual opposition, is not sanity, its corruption, endemic, political corruption of public ie, you and me public institutions.

    When you watch BBC One Show tonight and their nation wide “at home with Mr and Mrs May” fraud, remember these four words,

    The banality of evil.

  355. heedtracker says:

    Mr May’s got more money than Davey Crockett now but what’s life actually like without any?

    Michael Cranfield, the BDA’s chair of England Community Dental Services said:

    “This research is stark reminder of how current dental policy is failing vulnerable patients.

    “A civilized society does not leave homeless people handicapped by oral disease or resorting to pulling out their own teeth. There is no easy solution, but any progress is impossible without adequately resourced mainstream and dedicated services.

    “The failure to invest in community dentistry is hurting patients who can’t always be cared for in traditional settings. It’s hitting the homeless, the housebound, and patients with dementia, learning disabilities and phobias who are all entitled to effective care.

  356. orri says:

    Holyrood can’t be dissolved without a 2/3rds vote in favour. If all the SNP and Green MSP’s were to resign RC Ruth would rub her mitts together with glee and cause as much destruction as possible until an election in the constituency seats was held.

    Potentially the SNP could pull a similar stunt as the Conservatives would have been forced into and have Sturgeon resign which might set the two week timer running on Holyrood having to go to the polls again if no suitable replacement is elected by them. Not sure if that’s true or it’s only after an election that that’s the case.

    Depending on how the potential votes are stacked up the SNP agreeing to treat the GE as a proxy independence referendum might play well into the unionist hands. Remember that 16 & 17 year olds don’t get the vote and nor for EU citizens.

    The only advantage is that if saint Theresa’s rating start sliding further then there’s less temptation for someone splitting their residence between Scotland and the rUK to vote in Scotland as is their legal right granted to them by Labour the last time they were in office.

    In the 2015 GE UKIP were still a semi-credible threat. This time the support that originally came from conservative voters will probably remain with the conservatives, much as it moved at the last minute then. The protectionist leaning Labour vote might stay with them or, given Corbyn’s euroscepticism, might drift back to Labour.

    If there’s any dithering or doubt in England/Wales about the outcome then just as in 2015 any voters who opted to vote there rather than here might do so again.

    If not we’ll just be done up like kippers.

    So agreeing to the unionist call that a GE to elect MPs work for Scotland at Westminster become yet another proxy referendum is probably going to work in their favour. It’d be a monumentally stupid gamble when there’s already a mandate for a second referendum. It’s already been voted for at Holyrood. It doesn’t need an S30 to go ahead.

    That last point is the same one that was part of the SNP manifesto in 2011 where they carefully constructed a proposed referendum that if it had gone ahead would have authorised Holyrood to negotiate with Westminster over Scottish independence on our behalf. That’s why Cameron jumped at the control going down the S30 route gave him.

    Yes Westminster might simply blank the result of an independence referendum held without their agreement. At a time when they have yet completed Brexit negotiations though it might be more than a little impetuous.

  357. Breastplate says:

    Well said Breeks

  358. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 9 May, 2017 at 10:22 am:

    “Just seeing the eye watering divergence between 18 to 24 year old support for the SNP and the over 65 year old support for the Tories.”

    Sheesh! Have you not realised the truth yet, Breeks?

    Take a look at any photos or videos of a Conservative & Unionist Party meeting. Be it their Scottish Conference, their Constituency or their branch meeting. You will need to be eagle eyed to see anyone in the crowd, if you could call it a crowd, to spot anyone under sixty.

    Thing is that just being old does not predispose people to vote Tory. In other words it isn’t their age a
    that makes them vote Tory.

    There is one exception and that is a meeting of the, “Young Conservatives”, (but that’s another story).

    The simple facts is that there are very few Conservatives in Scotland who are not well-off retired, or even, immigrant retirees. They are not just voters they ARE the Tory Party.

    Their voters are their families and direct Hingers Oan, or in some instances what used to be described in Rural areas of labour intensive farms and large estates as, “Lolla the Maister”, voters who were not in any other way Conservative voters than threatened if they didn’t vote Tory their tie cottage and job was ended and they would then be arrested by the local plod as, “Having No Visible Means of Support”, a.k.a. “The Vagrancy Act”.

    In the past that meant either the Poorhouse, Workhouse or Transportation to the colonies. Of more recent times it meant homelessness and signing on as unemployed. I kid you not that when I was a boy the farm still had a Bothy for the unmarried men and had, “Kitches”, billeted in the Attics of the Big Hoose, (Farmhouse or Estate Mansion).

    Now the Tories are just mainly old rich people or selfish well off Middle-class people who will never be anything else – unless they become poor.

  359. galamcennalath says:

    The Unionists cannot use the popular vote in Scotland in the GE as evidence of any mandate.

    How can they? If the GE goes really well for May she might get over 40%.

    I think it is a near certainty that the SNP’s percentage in Scotland will be higher than the Tories in the UK.

    So if it becomes a game of whose mandate is bigger on a percentage basis, the Unionist’s peg is gie shoogly!

    WM elections are (undemocratically) decided on seats won …. suck it up, Unionists.

  360. gordoz says:

    Cant help thinking that the FM getting pitched in with Farron on TV debate is a clever and very real engineered trap. Questioning by audience BBC filtering and all that ???

    Lots of danger & no gains as far as I can see.

    She should have told them where to get off; on with Corbyn & May or not at all.

    Mistake by SNP in my view. Hope I’m wrong though.

  361. Dr Jim says:

    @Chic McGregor

    Easy for the Brits to accept Serbia Chic it means nothing to them whereas we’re kinda important to them

  362. Breastplate says:

    Heedtracker, could you please tell me and others here why you think UDI is not an option?

  363. Dr Jim says:


    I definitely agree with you on the Brits doing whatever they can to bugger any attempt at anything the SNP tries to do that’s why we have to hope that others see the truth of it and vote, even if they’re not natural SNP voters they might be Greens or Labour but they have to know that every vote cast for the SNP is a vote cast against the Tories and that’s the main objective

    If the Tories get a sniff of an SNP slide they’ll be on us like starving wolves

  364. geeo says:

    The SG will surely be talking to the U.N. about the constitutional question. In fact, i have no doubt about it.

    U.N. charters clearly state this…

    3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

    Looks to me, reading that, that when Nicola Sturgeon, armed with a legitimate mandate, as she is, demands a Section 30 order for a legally binding referendum at a date of HER CHOOSING, has the full backing of the U.N. behind her.

    If TM still insists “now is not the time” then surely WM is in full breach of the U.N. charter?

  365. schrodingers cat says:

    maybe i shouldnt have used the term UDI,

    perhaps rather state that a holyrood election with 50%+ snp share of the vote is and would be a democratic method whereby the will of the scottish people to be independent would be expressed

    if treeza doesnt like it, then grant a section 30 order and we will do this by referendum

    chose treeza

  366. schrodingers cat says:

    Greens to stand less than 10 candidates

    good, and not in marginals i hope

  367. Breastplate says:

    Schrödinger’s cat, as Breeks has pointed out there are varying degrees of UDI, for example, the one sided dissolution of the Treaty of Union is in itself a UDI.
    There’s more than one way to skin a cat. No offence intended.

  368. Jaygee says:

    With reference to pensioner voting intentions.

    I think they are worried that the South British Government will play dirty and hold back/ delay payments while negotiations with the Scottish Government take place leaving the OAPs in penury.
    The SNP must guarantee that this will not happen.

    I believe given that assurance we will find that many OAPs will vote for independence.

  369. Robert Peffers says:

    @Desimond says: 9 May, 2017 at 11:02 am:

    “I see Brexit as THE EXCUSE the SNP\Greens need to make that charge through the exit UK door,”


    Will you be the first guy to stand in front of the tanks, Desimond? I would suggest that you volunteer to do so as one of the people who are looking to get people killed and maimed.

    The Irish tried that tactic and ended up with decades of poverty, bullets, bombs, bloodshed and half a country divided by hate. They may wait a long time yet before that lot gets sorted out.

  370. heedtracker says:

    Breastplate says:
    9 May, 2017 at 4:05 pm
    Heedtracker, could you please tell me and others here why you think UDI is not an option?

    There a whole raft of no UDI reasons, starting legally. There is no actual legal process for Scotland to declare UDI. You can declare it but it has no legal capacity.

    Ofcourse, former colonies like Rhodesia, have declared UDI but Scotland’s not a UK colony, Scotland is a UK signatory to the treaty of Union. It would be like declaring UDI from ourselves, in court. If Scotland was not in fact a signatory to the treaty of union, then UDI would be an option. Its that simple.

    That’s just the start of it.

  371. orri says:

    The SNP has to go through the formalities if it ever gets as far as UDI. That doesn’t mean they need wait indefinitely whilst Westminster navigates the shitstorm Brexit might become. This isn’t time for some chivalrous one at a time twadle. No shame in crying hauners if needs be.

    Brexit might be an incredibly disruptive time for Scotland whether part of the UK or not. IF that’s already going on then going independent might not add greatly, if at all, to it. In fact independence would allow us to plot a pat more in tune with Scotland’s needs

    That’s probably one of the reasons the Tories thought they’d try to persuade us to wait till the dust settled, if ever, on Brexit and see how we liked living in a State plummeting down the world rankings.

    The other is the obvious one of removal of voting rights, if not the actual physical presence, of EU citizens who have made their homes in Scotland.

  372. Big Jock says:

    UK could be out of the EU by September without a deal. Cut lose so to speak. In that event much like Theresa May, the SNP could call a snap referendum.

    There is nothing to say that it can’t be done quickly if the SNP put the bill through after the GE and it’s ready to go in an emergency. After all the now is not the time , wait and see stuff would be null and void. It would be a fait accomplice.

    A lot of people are saying they don’t like Sturgeon now. The media are presenting her as a pain in the UK’s arse, and some people are swallowing the shit pill. I am beginning to despair at how fucking insane people are.

    There are a lot of really stupid people in Scotland and more and more appear everyday!

  373. Robert Graham says:

    Tory voters , supporters , their elderly relatives , and their children who wont be burdened with eye watering fees .their MSPs , must be pissn themselves at the work the SNP are doing on their behalf , while they daily pour scorn and derision on them ,

    Its a travesty we cant give them all the benefits of their chosen type of government , those with the sharp elbows , me first me first , should indeed be first , first to enjoy the full benefits of a tory administration .

    if you dont like the fruit dont shake the f/kn tree comes to mind .

  374. Breastplate says:

    Good that you now accept UDI as an option but just not your preferred route. Well done.

  375. Robert Peffers says:

    @ronnie anderson says: 9 May, 2017 at 11:18 am:

    ” … Another disclaimer OO men/women on the pavement causing problems Sash on or Of are private citizens & are dealt with by the Police as such.”

    Read it again, Ronnie. the point is that with the SNP running the Town Halls, and Labour ousted from control of COSLA the individual SNP controlled Local Councils could only allow marches if the marchers pay beforehand for policing the march.

    How long do you suppose the OO could finance that?

    Not only that fact but they could also then be made legally responsible for all the policing and they would also be made liable to clean-up afterwards.

    Just about all Police Scotland and the Local councils would have to finance would be the traffic control.

    If the marchers didn’t pay up they never get another chance to march in that constituency again. It also means they would either be restricted to one constituency or have to pay for every one they marched through.

  376. Big Jock says:

    Greens and SNP can stop Orange Marches in Glasgow by charging them into the ground on licence fees! Could be interesting.

  377. Robert Peffers says:

    @mike d says: 9 May, 2017 at 11:27 am:

    ” … take the bull by the horns and declare an snp majority at the GE a mandate for immediate independence.”

    How bloody stupid is that? The first thing that would happen on such a move being tried would be a restraining order – followed by a challenge in the Westminster Supreme Court and everything going as planned by the Yoons.

    They could tie things up through the courts for years and continue taking Scottish resources into the Westminster coffers and still win in the end.

  378. Lenny Hartley says:

    Big Jock. I am stunned at the hatred people are showing towards Nicola, Not quite as bad as Alec Salmon had to put up with but still hard to understand. I had a conversation with a lifelong Labour supporter at the weekend, he hated Corbyn and said he was finished with Labour , I said he was welcome with us, he said no way with expletive delated comment towards Nicola. I tried as gently as possible tell him that he was being brainwashed by the Msm etc but he was having none of it. We just have to get used to the fact that the Brits invented dirty tricks and its about the only thing they are good at.

    Therefore I think that we have to ca canny with Indy ref2, we should get an agreement to joint EFTA , customs union et al and then wait until the horrors of a Full,English Brexit sink in, otherwise there is a danger that we won’t win. If that means out of the single market for several months or more so be it. I’m pretty convinced May will just walk away without paying the divorce bill and for them the added bonus that European Nationals won’t get a vote in Indy ref2.

    However what ever they (snp) do they have my trust that it’s the right thing.

  379. call me dave says:

    Here Prof Denver explains how he calculated the “notional figures” on which BBC based its results service. Aye right!

  380. call me dave says:

    Jings the magic table is invisible when archived. 🙂

    We all know it’s a load of smoke and mirrors and what the BBC pay for anyway. 🙁

  381. Capella says:

    Re the apparent hatred generated towards Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond and Jeremy Corbyn – could it be anything to do with the manipulations described by Carole Cadwalladr in this guardian article? Can’t remember who originally posted it – apologies:

    This is not just a story about social psychology and data analytics. It has to be understood in terms of a military contractor using military strategies on a civilian population. Us. David Miller, a professor of sociology at Bath University and an authority in psyops and propaganda, says it is “an extraordinary scandal that this should be anywhere near a democracy. It should be clear to voters where information is coming from, and if it’s not transparent or open where it’s coming from, it raises the question of whether we are actually living in a democracy or not.

    Remember the Tory poster with Alex Salmond picking the pocket of unwary English people? Ed Milliband dancing to Alex Salmond’s tune?

    High profile hate campaigns plus an army of online smear tweeters could be the catalyst.

  382. geeo says:

    @big jock.

    Regards the EU negotiations,

    If Theresa decides to walk out of negotiations in September, that does not shorten the 2 year negotiating period in any way.

    Article 50 is veryclear on the length of the negotiating period, it is 2 years.

    If TM flounces in September, then the uk will be in an 18 month, non negotiating limbo until March 2019.

  383. galamcennalath says:

    Orange marches aren’t exactly an advert for the Union!

    More import is making it easier to have YES marches.

  384. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 17:41,

    Very true. Which is why their Ulster mates, though very anxious about the potential consequences for them of an indy majority in the indyref, were told to stay out of it, and largely did.

    They know of their “divisive” reputation and normally don’t give a toss, but in that instance they knew where there interests lay.

    Which makes it all the more foolish to be energising these people now. They are insufficient in number themselves to carry the day for the Tories except in some pockets at local elections, as we have seen.

    Their effect on a UKGE: pretty much toxic for the Tories, you would think. But they’re also trying to couple it to a hoped-for rise in anti-immigrant sentiment besides.

    The Rude Gal/St.Theresa Party is trying to summon demons, it’s as malevolent as that.

  385. Hamish100 says:

    Prof Denver paid by the BBC?
    They should not create news

  386. Stoker says:

    WOS archive links for December 2013 now over on O/T.

  387. galamcennalath says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Their effect on a UKGE: pretty much toxic for the Tories, you would think. But they’re also trying to couple it to a hoped-for rise in anti-immigrant sentiment besides.

    Anything that exists in England (and elsewhere in Europe) also exists here, it’s just the prevalence / popularity / unpopularity which varies, and sometimes considerably. And that is part of what make Scotland different.

    So there is an anti-immigrant sentiment here, but appealing to that minority is more likely to scare off others.

    I don’t believe the Tories can or will get above the ~25%. They got their vote out for the council elections, they will get the same numbers out for the GE.

  388. mike d says:

    Roberts peffers 5.05pm. They will be taking our resources for years anyhow Robert,and if we are still in this union post Brexit,they will never allow us to leave ever. They will hold on to us and use every means at their disposal,force if necessary to keep us. And we will be a voice in the wilderness with no one to come to our aid.

  389. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breastplate says: 9 May, 2017 at 12:24 pm:

    ” … what if Westminster decides that Scotland no longer requires a parliament after voting for independence and that democracy doesn’t really count if your Scottish?”

    Sheesh! Have we been bashing our heads against a wall all those years? How many times has it got to be explained to some Wingers before the penny drops?

    Here we go again.

    The United Kingdom is just that – A bipartite kingdom of two only, equally sovereign, formerly independent kingdoms. It is history and all well documented.

    There are only two kingdoms that signed the Treaty of Union and no other kingdoms have been added since 1707.

    That is the evidence but Westminster has claimed, and it has never been contested in a court, that Westminster made another treaty of union in 1800/1 that added a Kingdom called Northern Ireland but as there was actually no independent country, or kingdom, called Northern Ireland as it was still officially part of the country & Kingdom of England. There was no actual Republic of Ireland until 1949.

    In 1707 all Ireland was an annexed part of the Kingdom of England due to, “Crown of Ireland Act”, 1542, so was already part of the United Kingdom.

    What Westminster claims was a Treaty of Union in 1800/1 was nothing of the kind. First of all because it was an Act of the Westminster Parliament and you cannot make Treaties with yourself. It was an agreement made between the two sides of a Civil War going on in Ireland and both sides in that war were United Kingdom Citizens.


    “The Irish state came into being in 1922 as the Irish Free State, a dominion of the British Commonwealth, having seceded from the United Kingdom under the Anglo-Irish Treaty. It comprises 26 of the island of Ireland’s 32 counties. The 1937 constitution renamed the state Ireland. In 1949 it explicitly became a republic, definitively ending its tenuous membership of the British Commonwealth.”

    Got it now?

    There was no such thing as, “An Anglo-Irish Treaty”, as both sides were United Kingdom citizens and neither side was a legal country to sign anything. Not until 1949 did the Republic exist and that was by the former Irish Free State declaring UDI.

    So – there is still only two actual kingdoms in the United Kingdom and the question that needs to be sorted out is – why then is Westminster assuming itself to be the de facto Parliament of England that has split the United Kingdom up as four unequal countries with Westminster the, unelected as such, de facto parliament of England assuming it is the overlord of Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland? Furthermore it is proving the point by forcing EVEL upon Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    Now get the point that Scots are not only citizens of the UK but also citizens of the EU and they thus also come under the umbrella of both the Council of Europe and the United Nations.

    Now, instead of just wee Scotland crying in the wilderness for justice and no one listening – the World is going to be affected and inconvenienced and they are sitting up and taking notice. Let’s face it they have all had many more important things to worry about Worldwide since 1707.

    The vibes coming out of the EU are that Scotland has a lot of sympathy in the EU and Council of Europe and the and the UN have rules that Westminster has signed up to. So, when the Brexit thing finally gets knocked back, there is ever chance that Scotland will have the support of the EU, European Council and the UN to split from England and the international courts will accept it.

    We are in the right here folks and I’m betting the international courts will back Scotland. At the very worst we will be out of the union and the union be over.

    Do not believe me. I might be wrong – go and check out the facts for yourselves. It is all there in history.

    What isn’t there is a critical eye on the truth.

    The biggest lie, to my mind, is the claim that the so called Anglo/Irish Treaty was a treaty.

    The facts show it could not be so.

    Ireland had a civil war – that is Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland fought against each other and both were parts of the Kingdom of England by The Crown of Ireland Act, 1542.

    The Treaty of Union 1707 has only two signatory Kingdoms.

    The Partition of Ireland only took place on May 3, 1921 under the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    The entire island of Ireland provisionally became the Irish Free State on December 6, 1922.

    However, the Parliament of Northern Ireland exercised its right to opt out of the new Dominion the following day.

    Partition created two territories on the island of Ireland: Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland on 7 December 1922 but the South was still an English Dominion and the North was a province of England.

    Not until 1949 did the Irish Free State cease to be an English Dominion and declare itself The Republic of Ireland.

    At no time after 1542, (Crown of Ireland Act), until December 1922, was any part of Ireland NOT part of the Kingdom of England that signed the Treaty of Union to form the United Kingdom in 1707.

    Unless, of course, you can prove otherwise.

  390. Bill McLean says:

    I wonder if is not possible for Scotland, given a supportive GE or Holyrood election result, to just rescind the Treaty of Union. We are reminded frequently that we are EQUAL partners in the union and I believe I have read here that neither party should act to the prejudice of the other. We spend all day pointing out the inequalities of our position but surely withdrawal from the Treaty of Union can be done legally.

  391. Bill McLean says:

    meant to add that once the Tories achieve Brexit we are stuck in this union for ever – who would come to our aid when the Army is deployed to keep us in our place. It is my opinion that we must get out before Brexit or be second rate for ever!

  392. CameronB Brodie says:

    One of the great misunderstandings and misconceptions people have is that Fascists wear uniforms and round up Jews, therefore anyone who isn’t calling for the Jews to be sent to a gas chamber or wearing a uniform, isn’t a Fascist. So many people honestly believe that only Germans with tiny moustaches are capable of the hatred of Hitler. Or that Hitler was a freak accident of history no more likely to re-occur than the Black Death.

    But Fascism doesn’t start off by promising war and racial extermination. Had Hitler began his career by promising concentration camps, gas chambers and oppression, he would have never become Chancellor. Instead, Fascism takes over the way all change occurs, slowly. It took years of Fascism to take roots and to take full control. It takes years of propaganda, of speeches and articles that gradually chip away at tolerance, and make their hatred seem normal. Even against the Jews, Hitler acted slowly, it took years of unopposed power until the racial laws were fully implemented and almost a decade before the Final Solution began. There was no one day when Germany was lost, but rather there was a gradual process over years when Jews and opponents of the regime were dehumanised.

    Fascism begins by promising to make the country strong again, to restore pride. It wants to help, it wants to build a better country, it wants to improve your life. It wants to challenge a corrupt establishment and change a broken system. It wants to get people working again and get tough on crime. It doesn’t present an image of violent thugs to you, instead it shows the face of ordinary respectable people, people just like you, who have had enough….

    N.B. Britain has a head start as the seeds of “blood and soil”, nationalist, fascism were first sown in the Palaces of Westminster and the leaf lanes of England’s home-counties.

  393. Robert Peffers says:

    @Doug says: 9 May, 2017 at 12:27 pm:

    ” … Particularly as the First Minister asked to be judged on education in the past.”

    It is, really, really, very simple, Doug.

    In the first place the international figures being quoted are not a good yardstick in the first place.

    In the second place they are based over performance over several years.

    Thirdly Scotland’s figures do not cover the full term of the, “Several Years”, and in the fourth place the Scottish, “Curriculum for Excellence”, has not run the full term of those several years either.

    Yet Scotland’s own figures indicate there has been very great improvements since the SNP came to power in Scotland.

    In other words, as usual, the actual poor performance stems from the previous incumbents as SG at Holyrood.

    It is the Usual Unionist claptrap of comparing Oranges with both grapes and cherries and getting the total as a fruit Salad.

  394. Bill McLean says:

    I agree with MIke D – once they achieve Brexit we are totally bound into this stinking union for ever. Who will take our part? Who will speak up for Scotland? Will we even be allowed a devolved Parliament? Anyone who imagines that reason and the democratic process will get us freedom knows little about British/English history!

  395. joannie says:

    @Robert Pfeffers – Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland never had a civil war. The Irish Civil War was between pro and anti Treaty factions in the south.

  396. Robbo says:

    Well maybe we should unleash our secret weapon when parliament starts again in Westminster!


    21 Billion of the wee beastie are due to hatch very soon we’re told. Gather them up and release them in parliament on the first day of reopening-(of course tell our MP’s to phone in sick).

    That should do the job

  397. Breastplate says:

    Robert Peffers
    ” … what if Westminster decides that Scotland no longer requires a parliament after voting for independence and that democracy doesn’t really count if your Scottish?”

    Sheesh! Have we been bashing our heads against a wall all those years? How many times has it got to be explained to some Wingers before the penny drops?

    Well Robert,
    Harping on about the legalities of what Westminster can and cannot do is completely irrelevant to what Westminster can threaten. You do see that don’t you?
    But perhaps you have been banging your head against a wall.

    Please feel free to correct me but try to stick to what people have written and not try to purposely misinterpret for your own ends.

    Although no apology is necessary for misconstruing my words, it would be helpful if you didn’t try to be so pompous.

  398. yesindyref2 says:

    The last and only Referendum on Independence gave a 55% NO vote, so the majority of those that voted said NO to Independence. No country in the world would accept that the majority of Scotland wants Independence without another referendum, so UDI is not an option, even if based on the SNP getting more than 50% in the General Election – which is unlikely the way the polls are.

    1). another referendum has NOT been officially denied
    2). the next UK Government is NOT yet in place to confirm or deny another referendum
    3). the Scottish Government have NOT taken action after such as “official” refusal to force the UK Government to facilitate one with a Section 30 Order, which could include court action(s)
    4). Holyrood has not attempted its own referendum, and fought any neccessary battles through court
    5). other options such as appeal to the UN or even EU have NOT been attempted [1]

    But apart from that UDI is a great idea – NOT

    [1] It looks like the EU will NOT accept Brexit without Scotland’s difference being taken into account – see the recent news about the EU Parliament’s debates, and remember that the EU Parliament also has to approve Brexit terms, as well as the EU Council(s).

  399. Rock says:


    “Like it or not FPTP is fair.”

    Let us agree to disagree about that.

  400. Breastplate says:

    UDI is an option whether you like it or not.
    It is irrelevant that it’s a bad idea a good idea or a mediocre idea.
    It is still an option.

  401. Breeks says:

    @ Heedtracker

    I do appreciate some folks and fervently opposed to a UDI, and for good reason. However, if Brexit negotiations break down, as seems more likely than not, then the UK could find itself summarily out of Europe long before the anticipated 18 months of negotiations and ScotRef campaign are expected to take.

    In those circumstances, and based on Theresa May’s rhetoric, any formal Brexit resolution which occurs before we break free, will bind Scotland to the UK’s fate.

    In my humble opinion Scotland needs a Break Glass Unit with Emergency Independence in it.

    I agree, a flat out UDI will create chaos and acrimony, and a high likelihood of civil disturbance and legal challenge. Yet in all honesty, I’m not entirely sure a successful ScotRef result will spare us much of the same acrimony.

    Personally, I would take the edge off a cold, hard UDI in the way I described in my earlier post. It’s a de facto UDI, but not an actual UDI. It is restoration of Scotland’s sovereign integrity closely followed by a plebiscite to create democratic ratification and constitutional direction.

    I would ask you, and others who abhor UDIs, in a constructive question, what would your preferred contingency be for a hard and dirty Brexit which threatens to eject Scotland from Europe in a much shorter timeframe than the 18 months pencilled into our calendars at the moment?

    One last issue too… I think it is quite possible having an eminently credible UDI option might actually make using that option much less likely to happen. It certainly changes the parameters of any constitutional brinkmanship.

  402. Meg merrilees says:

    Big Jock 3.05pm

    You mention Bannockburn and Culloden.

    That they are quite different goes without saying but – in Culloden we were retreatingg and exhausted.
    Bannockburn was all about preparation.

    Bruce knew that he had one year to get ready for the battle to end all battles. Nicola has about the same time.

    Bruce chose his place of battle and trained his army well- I’m sure Nicola is doing likewise.

    And finally, on the day, Bruce waited patiently and made his men wait till the last possible moment for maximum effect before unleashing his full force against the enemy. It was all about controlling the way things happened as much as possible and it paid off.

    I’m sure Nicola is playing the right game and waiting for maximum effect. She has control as she has the mandate.

  403. Bill McLean says:

    Meg – I sincerely hope you are right but i’m not sure Nicola has much power or leverage in this game. I really feel that if we are not out BEFORE Brexit we are done for! Hope i’m proven wrong but feel at the moment we are being played!

  404. Graeme says:

    Meg merrilees says:
    9 May, 2017 at 9:34 pm

    Big Jock 3.05pm

    And finally, on the day, Bruce waited patiently and made his men wait till the last possible moment for maximum effect before unleashing his full force against the enemy. It was all about controlling the way things happened as much as possible and it paid off.

    If my understanding of history is correct (and I’m sure Mr Peffers will correct me if I’m wrong)

    Bruce didn’t wait till the last minute, It Wallace & De Moray who waited till the last minute at Stirling, at Bannockburn Bruce too the offensive


  405. yesindyref2 says:

    @Breastplate: “UDI is an option whether you like it or not.

    Only if you can find or form a political party to back it, and they get any sort of majority. I don’t think it’s in the SNP’s manifesto recently, and doubt if it will be in the GE one.

    Though who knows!

  406. yesindyref2 says:

    In my humble opinion Scotland needs a Break Glass Unit with Emergency Independence in it.

    I’m not against that, in an emergency, nor am I against some deep pocket McMiller taking our Sovereignty to an apporpriate court – at any time.

  407. meg merrilees says:

    Graeme –

    when I wrote Bruce (had) waited patiently till the last possible moment – I meant date wise as Stirling castle had to be relieved by Mid-summer i.e. June 24th. They could have attacked on June 23rd and indeed there was a skirmish then but Bruce’s maximum effect was indeed his early morning attack on June 24th.

    Likewise, I think Nicola may well wait till the Brexit deal has taken shape to try ( at the last possible moment) to bring as many as possible over to the Indy camp.

    But who knows what the future holds- if TM goes for an early Brexit, we could be voting sooner than any of us can imagine.

  408. Desimond says:

    Not quite sure why Robert the History Buff is shouting about me being first to stand in front of tanks. All I suggested is that thei election could be the vote we use to confirm the wishes of the Scottish People on Independence as it is my feeling that after this General Election, we may well be watching the last chance of a referendum sail away into history and my suggestion was a possible life-boat.

    Westminster will crush Holyrood, of that I have no doubt. bringing back Fox Hunting is but paper puff for the real bloodsports that await should May and Co get their majority and “public mandate”.

    The Tanks have already been in George Square Robert, I fear the fight in the people of those days will not be replicated should my fears come to pass.

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