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The Chords Of Damocles

Posted on September 12, 2018 by

Readers may have noted a fairly concerted attempt over the last 18 months or so by the opponents of Scottish independence to get Wings Over Scotland shut down. But sometimes the greatest danger comes from the people you least suspect.

Because the thing SNP MP Pete Wishart is lauding in that tweet earlier today, and has been agitating for for months, would, without a shadow of a doubt, kill this website and scores of others like it overnight.

The draconian, and often idiotically counter-productive, lengths that all the world’s big multinational entertainment companies have gone to in order to scrape a few more pennies of profit are a subject I’ve been writing about for years before Wings ever existed. Suffice to say it’s a long story and those links only scratch the surface of it.

They’re frequently assisted by clueless politicians with no grasp of the subtleties and nuances of how copyright can be used as a weapon of censorship and oppression, and heads full of a nonsense utopia of infinite lifelong wealth for anyone who wrote one half-decent song in 1963.

So let’s be really brief. Julia Reda is a German MEP from the Pirate Party, who’s been fighting the EU’s new proposals since the beginning, and she’s done an excellently concise job of summing up what they mean, which we’re sure she’d be fully supportive of us reproducing here.

The particular parts of the new Copyright Directive that should really concern people are articles 11 and 13, and here’s why:

What that means is that the short clips of news broadcasts which the BBC used as justification to recently have our YouTube channel shut down (and later reinstated after the intervention of Alex Salmond) would never have been allowed to be on YouTube in the first place, because as soon as we tried to upload them they’d have been automatically caught and blocked as copyright material by the new statutory filters.

We would have no legal comeback – which we currently do, in the shape of various “fair dealing” exemptions – because the BBC could simply issue a blanket refusal to reproduce any of its content in any way and be entirely within its legal rights. At an absolute minimum, the act of getting any clip uploaded would be a time-consuming exhausting wrangle at the end of which any topicality in the clip would have been lost.

And there’s more.

From our perspective, Article 11 is the really bad one. If passed, we would no longer be allowed to quote or link to anything from any newspaper, unless they gave us a licence to beforehand (which of course they wouldn’t).

As Reda notes, this is a bullet aimed right at the heart of sites like ours. At a stroke, the vast majority of Wings articles would become unambiguously illegal.

The EU denies the Directive will have the effects we’ve just outlined, but on even the most cursory reading it’s obvious that it will. In its own words, the new law will prevent unauthorised quoting of anything from “an understandable sentence” upwards.

(So we suppose we’d at least still be able to talk about Annie Wells.)

The Directive is massively opposed by almost everyone except the content publishers and politicians. It’s a fundamentally bad idea, implemented stupendously badly, and it’ll have absolutely catastrophic ramifications far beyond the worlds of music and TV and movies. It is, by a country mile, the best reason there’s ever been to leave the EU.

If enacted, pretty much the entirety of the political new media right across Europe will be outlawed in the blink of an eye, all because some unsuccessful artistes don’t think they get paid enough by Spotify. (Which isn’t exactly getting rich off their work.) If we want to achieve independence, we really better get a move on.

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    1. 12 09 18 16:56

      The Chords Of Damocles | speymouth

    222 to “The Chords Of Damocles”

    1. Paul Miller says:

      Yes it is the EU bringing this in but you can guarantee when we’re out that the Tories will be quite keen on something similar.

    2. HandandShrimp says:

      Fair point. Just because the EU have no Draconian intentions does not mean that the ill disposed (the BBC) will not use it in a Draconian way.

      Is this part of the raft of legislation that May intends to replicate?

      It seems to be a recipe for fake news and misinformation because no be will be able to quote intelligible sentences and consequently what we will get is distorted snippets that will dance to whatever tune the axe is being ground to.

      One of the great things about Wings is the context is intact.

    3. jfngw says:

      Is Pete Wishart the SNP’s version of Annie Wells, he does seem to try at times.

      Does this mean that even statements from MP’s and MSP’s will be subject to copyright if they are made to a media outlet. Effectively making the opinions of elected representatives the ownership of the media. I would expect politicians to ensure any interviews are exempt from this.

    4. Breeks says:

      I thought the EU had voted AGAINST the Copyright Directive back in July?

    5. Derek Rogers says:

      Time to look again at hosting in a different jurisdiction? What we would be against it?

    6. Brian Powell says:

      SNP MPs cutting off their source of information and their own supporters ammunition.

      Thing is, the BBC etc would likely give the opposition to Independence whatever permission they ask to put up ant-Ind blogs, promos etc.

    7. Josef Ó Luain says:

      The E.U. Parliament has a go at Orban whilst political prisoners in Spain don’t get a mention. What are people supposed to make of that? I made plenty of such inconsistencies and voted accordingly when the opportunity presented itself. And I’m a dyed-in-the-wool Yesser. Pete Wishart, f.f.s. do me a favour.

    8. Clootie says:

      …eyes wide shut!

      It doesn’t matter that it is a lie. It will be their copyrighted lie and will be protected.
      It will be protected from scrutiny, from derision, from comparison etc etc

      A lie includes the presentation of a “Leask truth” out of context and avoidance of wider framing.
      e.g. Any example from the headlines of the BBC, Herald, Scotsman, P&J, Daily Record etc etc

      I’m also certain that even out of the EU we (UK) will embrace this legislation.

      I hope this does not come as a great surprise Rev but they are out to get you! Can a’ hard yair jaiket?

    9. Jim Thomson says:

      So, if you had a, for instance, .no domain for your blog, would that get round the problem? Would you need to move to Norway (or at least have a Norwegian address) to make that work?

    10. Clootie says:

      I should have said in my previous post that the intent of the EU legislation was as others have said to protect the artistic output of performers. Like previous comments we all know how Whitehall will distort this in practise.

      The skills of Whitehall in appropriating legislation for their agenda is well documented in history.

    11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So, if you had a, for instance, .no domain for your blog, would that get round the problem? Would you need to move to Norway (or at least have a Norwegian address) to make that work?”

      I’d have to move to Norway.

    12. galamcennalath says:

      “…if the Copyright Directive receives final approval by the European Parliament in January, it will have a huge, disruptive impact on the internet, both in the European Union and around the world. Exactly how the legislation will be interpreted will be up to individual nations

      https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/12/17849868/eu-internet-copyright-reform-article-11-13-approved

      Yet another reason to get IndyRef2 done and dusted!

    13. Clootie says:

      @04:20

      …sigh auto correct

      haud not hard

      We will need a Scots autocorrect soon!

    14. Craig P says:

      Jim Thomson – I was wondering along the same lines. Though I thought a .yes domain would be more appropriate 🙂

    15. Albaman says:

      Well, let’s hope Pete Wishart reads this, or is informed about it, and is educated by this article written by Stew..
      Come on Pete, get a grip!!.

    16. manandboy says:

      Well done for flagging this up, Stu. This Copyright Directive would virtually create almost total censorship for bloggers. What a bunch of idiots politicians have become.

    17. Bruce L says:

      Like you Rev, I’ve been following copyright legislation and the behaviour of the Disneys of this world for longer than pretty much any other subject close to my heart. It’s ridiculously bad legislation; so much of copyright legislation is.

      It’s hugely skewed in favour of the corporate “content providers”. With bitter irony, many of these organisations are themselves among the biggest industrial scale copyright abusers, and against them it is almost impossible to win redress; a situation that won’t change much under the proposed legislation since it has effectively been written entirely for their benefit.

    18. Capella says:

      Pete Wshart is a musician (Runrig I recall). So it is personal for him. May need the wider implications spelt out.

    19. DW says:

      “It is, by a country mile, the best reason there’s ever been to leave the EU.”
      You’re probably not even exaggerating.

      Incredibly, this directive would force those fighting the spread of misinformation, to pay money to the originators of misinformation.

      And Pete Wishart is delighted.

    20. DW says:

      @Breeks

      “The directive was originally rejected by MEPs in July following criticism of two key provisions: Articles 11 and 13, dubbed the “link tax” and “upload filter” by critics. However, in parliament this morning, an updated version of the directive was approved, along with amended versions of Articles 11 and 13. The final vote was 438 in favor and 226 against.”
      https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/12/17849868/eu-internet-copyright-reform-article-11-13-approved

    21. bobajock says:

      Just as well we are leaving the EU …

    22. Andy-B says:

      Oh this is not good, the unionist media would undoubtedly stop you from using their content. But as you say independence is the best way forward.

      When will they begin to enforce it, and the fact that Scotland is leaving the EU, does that give you any leeway after we’re out.

      Could if need be register Wings in Norway and post the content here in the UK?

    23. HT says:

      So this is the wonderful EU we’re supposed to be worshiping and praising? Brexit was 100% correct and those who voted for it wise and proven wise time and again as we see with this article. If Scotland was independent they’d be DICTATED to what to do even if every person in it was against this. We’ve already seen if a country votes against what the EU creeps want they just tell them to vote again anyway. It’s a nightmare that will lead us into a corporate led version of China’s system. Every step of the way has been the EU pushing for this destiny and far worse to come. When tyranny arrives there will be masses of people applauding it and saying how wonderful it is.

      Scotland can manage its own affairs and destiny. It doesn’t need Westminster OR Brussels to dictate to it. I don’t want to swap a big boss for a bigger boss when I can have freedom instead.

      The SNP needs to stop cynically using the Brexit vote (we all know they were telling people to vote a certain way to use as an excuse for a second referendum, I know as I was one on the stands and with the leaflets hearing it first hand and same all over the internet) and the EU as a crutch as they will use and crush us for their own pleasures and goals.

      The SNP correctly used to be the most EU skeptic party in the UK as independence meant independence, not frying pan to fire. If we’re uniquely incapable of running our own country and need the apron strings of the EU to tell us how to do everything as soon as Westminster stops telling us then why even bother with it all? It makes a mockery of it and makes it look like solely spiteful anti-English sentiment (which it really isn’t, despite what outsiders and the media think).

    24. Muscleguy says:

      @Breeks,
      They did but the Commission have come back with modifications, but really only cosmetic ones and they don’t alter the sections the Rev has valid concerns about.

      This isn’t the end though there are other hoops it has to jump through and as in all systems it can be challenged in Strasbourg at the ECJ, if you have the cojones and the deep pockets. But expect Google, Apple, Facebook et al to go there.

      This would seem to be the last hurrah of a dying recording model. A lot of acts these days earn most of their dosh from touring. Some even give their recordings (low fi versions at least) away as loss leaders to get the punters to come to gigs. With the rise of Spotify from the mass of attempted content providers (RIP Napster), Apple Music et al most of the yoof stream their music. I’m old school, I like to be able to listen regardless. Regardless of how much data I have left this month, regardless of the bandwidth of my connection (poor here in Dundee) and regardless of having a connection at all (outages are hardly unknown, we had one a month ago).

    25. dakk says:

      I have had my doybts about Pete Wishert since he was interviewed by Adam Bolton a year or so ago.

      He allowed ‘fish supper face’ to state Scotland gets handouts from England(or words to that effect).

      Wishart’s reply was a smiling cringe along the lines of’I prefer to call it allocation by need’.

      It came across as sycophantic in extreme and something one of the Yoon uncle tams might say.

      Don’t want to trash the guy,but I was certainly perturbed by his words on that occasion.

    26. Mary McCabe says:

      As a published author and political activist I’ve always been far more worried about censorship and secrecy than about copyright and snooping.
      Obviously it should be illegal to steal someone else’s intellectual property and pass it off as your own. But if you quote as much as a line of a poem or song within a novel (even if you provide full accreditation) you can be in trouble.
      As for the right to hoist by their own petard politicians and their friends in the MSM I’m with Burns when he writes:
      “Here’s freedom to them that would read
      Here’s freedom to them that would write.
      There’s nane ever feared that the truth would be heard
      But they (sic) that the truth would indict.”

    27. Jfngw says:

      @Capella

      He is a politicians, he ought to be aware of how legislation affects everyone, not just what’s good for his mates.

    28. Spikethedee says:

      The simple answer would be, IMHO, to grant a licence automatically to all websites/blogs etc that employ members of the NUJ (I don’t know if there are other unions for Journalists, but them also if there are). This would give legitimate sites and publications the right to continue as they are.

      If there are complaints etc, then the licence may be suspended while investigations are undertaken. Might also help to raise the overall standards of journalism???

    29. Shinty says:

      Capella says:
      12 September, 2018 at 4:37 pm
      Pete Wshart is a musician (Runrig I recall). So it is personal for him. May need the wider implications spelt out.
      ——-

      Yes, my initial thoughts too.

    30. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Muscleguy @ 16:57,

      Yes, sooner or later this is surely going to bump into freedom-of-speech rights.

    31. Effijy says:

      Pete what the hell are you thinking about?

      This is yet another giant leap for the Country living in Orwell’s Big Brother state.

      Can someone in his constituency show him what the Rev has just written?

      Is our next move to have a fund raiser for a Norwegian Ski Chalet?

      Boris lies to the country saying Brexit will give £350 Million per week to the NHS and you have to get his permission if you wish to comment on how far fetched a lie it was???

      This is absolutely insane!

      The Record Companies are infamous for ripping off the musicians.
      They are multi million corporations always looking for more.

    32. Neil Anderson says:

      Aye, so Runrig will now get another twinty pee a year fur thur pithy choons o’ which Peter Wishart will receive aboot twae an’ a hauf pee fur ees dubious keyboardin’ In the 1990’s. Sumhin no right aboot thon boay..

    33. jfngw says:

      O/T

      Are the rumours correct that to get Ruth Davidson to answer a question the best route for BBC Scotland reporters is to buy a £12 ticket for The Spectator Andrew Neil interview, otherwise she is always unavailable.

    34. Morgatron says:

      No doubt Pete needs to wake up on this one. Instead of his self serving interest to a profession he left behind many years ago(wish he’d never started) to preserving freedom of speech. Im sure he wil be taking the moral high road all the way to the bonny bank of Loch Lomond!

    35. Proud Cybernat says:

      Makes you wonder just how many EU politicians are receiving stuffed brown envelopes from big movie corporations and music producers to push this legislation through?

    36. Boudicca says:

      So what about all the video clips that are shown on the BBC news channels, et al, and on their websites? No time to get permission and still be topical.

    37. twathater says:

      This to me indicates the NOT very joined up thinking of the EU and people with vested interests eg Pete Wishart , this is a massive sledgehammer to crack a monkey nut .

      This as you say Stu will make it ALMOST impossible if not IMPOSSIBLE to run this site and ANY other site or blogger who wants to expose the lies and duplicitous behaviour of any msm , or politician .

      This is massive protectionism of the neo corporatists granted by European law supposedly and wrongly under the auspices of protecting against copyright infringements

      Music artists have long complained that the compilation disc companies have not been paying the proper royalties for their work but surely even they must realise that this deliberate and regressive legislation is an outrageous assault on freedom of speech and democracy

      As in TTIP , Catalonia , CETA , Greece , I have to wonder just whose interests the EU works on behalf of and my trust in this organisation and their representatives is lessening

    38. ronnie anderson says:

      Pete Wishart Thinking of his pension pot & fuck the rest of us , one Dimensional Direction , ffs ah might hiv geid him a name of ah new group .

    39. Jules says:

      He may well be a nice guy, but in my opinion Pete Wishart is the 2nd most hopeless SNP MP Westminster (that honour obviously belonging to Angus McNeill). Both are far too quick to resort to petty ‘na na na na na’ politics that impresses and wins over nobody. Some of his tweets have been absolute gifts to the SNPBad press corps.

      That said, he did cling on to his seat when others in similar Tory target seats did not, so maybe he’s good at the local constituency stuff. If so, I’d suggest he sticks to those areas of strength…

    40. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      MEP Alyn Smith on the matter:

      https://www.alynsmith.eu/eu_copyright_reform_needs_more_work

    41. gregor says:

      This is a potential serious threat to Scotland’s (highly public valued) information archive and holistic ability to function and communicate as a normal free democratic society.

      Pete Wishart isn’t looking at the ‘Bigger Picture’ and should think again…

    42. manandboy says:

      OT. So, would the statement below from the RHI enquiry be illegal?

      m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/rhi-scandal/rhi-inquiry

      ‘Festering sore of suspicion’

      Donal Lunny reads out evidence given by Deti permanent secretary Dr Andrew McCormick in which he says he was contacted by Mr Cairns about possibly delaying a Stormont debate on RHI cost controls, and that during their phone conversation the reason given for the delay was not enough farmers in Fermanagh having applied for the scheme.

      In Dr McCormick’s statement he says it was clear the call was on behalf of Arlene Foster.

      “This is a great example of the festering sore of suspicion,” says Mr Cairns, saying the interaction was part of the ordinary business of making representations on behalf of constituents.

    43. Liz g says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 5.45
      Certainly does…
      Although I’d wager the Politicians are just using the copyright issues to get control of the internet.
      They don’t like the way the public use it as an information exchange.
      I think they wanted it to be more of an information gathering tool and a new propaganda outlet for themselves.
      Once they’d worked out that they cannot control it,they will be more than happy to curb it.
      I’d hate to think the internet’s best day’s are behind it!
      We need out of the UK fast,and if we don’t get EU membership in enough time to block this… Then EFTA it is.
      Scotland could have a lucrative future as an ” uncensored ” internet zone…

    44. Artyhetty says:

      This will in no way protect artists, ‘creatives’ as they say. Once your work is online it’s open to being taken and copied, you will probably never know about it. I use the internet for research, about politics, the environment, science, human rights, animal rights, etc and for watching films, all kinds of things.

      My work has been stolen, long before the internet, my ideas, and the actual work. for all I know it could be on album cover in China! ( I mean no prejudice).

      I am far more worried about not being able to stay informed which informs my artwork!!

      It is of great concern in my opinion that this is being given the go ahead. It will only clip the wings of ‘creatives’ and
      enable companies to police the internet. Sites like WOS are at risk.

      I have no idea what planet Pete Wishart is on, but the law as it stands does in fact work, especially is you can afford to
      take someone to court.

      Not a good day for the internet and definitely not for so called ‘creatives’. It’s a ruse.

    45. Alisdair says:

      Morgatron at 5.43pm, Boom! Well said.

    46. Vestas says:

      Pete Wishart has some odd views IMHO – like believing indyref2 shouldn’t happen until after the next Holyrood elections.

      Can’t see much of a turnout for the SNP if that happens.

    47. Angela says:

      O/T

      Sorry for the o/t comment, but can someone tell how to show WOS twitter feed. I used to be able to click on Twitter while in the WOS website to receive the tweets. Currently, the words ‘My Tweets’ is greyed out and therefor I can’t get the tweets.

    48. Derick fae Yell says:

      As I was saying: EFTA

    49. msean says:

      What about anti EU newspapers?Surely they can still be shown,or will they go along with the money and love what the EU have done.

      Are we sure this isn’t a sweetener to get the uk media back onside,something to make them change tack?

    50. Artyhetty says:

      O/T
      Sorry!

      re; Angela@7.10

      I have same problem and have for a week or two. I thought it was my computer. I fixed it re apps, so I thought, can’t quite remember how, but now same as you, no Twitter on WOS site.

    51. One_Scot says:

      Is there not a twitter link, under the Facebook link at the top of the page?

    52. galamcennalath says:

      Vestas says:

      …. believing indyref2 shouldn’t happen until after the next Holyrood elections. Can’t see much of a turnout for the SNP if that happens.

      Indeed.

      My interpretation of events was that the 2014 YES folks were motivated to vote SNP in 2015 & 2016.

      In 2017 the SNP lost a THIRD of that vote.

      IMO the SNP will never win 2021 if they put Indy aside. The BritNats see it as their chance to ‘solve the Scottish problem’ once and probably for always. They will throw everything at it. To win, the SNP would need to re engage all 2014 YES voters, and some more.

      There is a mandate now for IndyRef2 and whatever Brexit clarity we are going to get should appear soon. And IMO it possibly won’t be very clear. We need to get a move on even though.

      Another scenario is a snap GE. If the SNP are to remain credible, they need to take back seats. So again, 2014 YES needs motivated. Only a promise of IndyRef2 and active YES2 campaigning will do that, IMO.

      The heather needs lit.

    53. george wood says:

      Here’s a true story on a copyright related matter, which shows the power of software’s abilty to search the web.

      The company I work for sent some engineers over to Russia for the world cup to check that the Goal Line Technology and VAR, when installed, were going to work correctly.

      One of the guys decided to take a selfie on one of the pitches and then sent it to his friends. Within an hour, Adidas’s lawyers were onto our head office threatening us with court action.

      Adidas, who were supplying the world cup ball, had software which could recognise it and the software had been trawling the internet looking for it to prevent the appearance of the ball getting out before the launch day for the new ball.

      In the background of his selfie was one of the balls and it had been picked up by the software. Fortunately, we were able to grovel enough to get out of having to pay damages for infringement of copyright – though I bet the lawyers did ok out of it.

    54. TJenny says:

      WOS twitter link is below the Facebook link. Right click + open in new tab, then click on ‘tweets and replies’ then bookmark the page. (I’ve got about 12 twitter tabs open just now, though not a lot happening on any at mo).

    55. Fred says:

      Too comfortable on the green benches & forgets why we sent him there!

    56. Chick McGregor says:

      Copyright should protect a creator’s right to earnings generated by his/her creation and possibly extend that right to his/her children.

      In practice, that is seldom what happens because in this real and morally bereft world copyright can be bought and sold like any other commodity or signed away by contractual agreement.

      So, for instance, the huge earnings from The Lord Of The Rings franchise all goes to New Line Cinema and J.R.R. Tolkien’s family get nothing. O.K. Tolkien may have been stupid enough to sell the rights to someone for a few thousand quid but the point is, he shoudn’t have been able to.

      The vast majority of earnings from creative work ends up in the pockets of corporation suits with company cars who had nothing to do with creating the product they sell.

      That is not what it was designed to do.

      A better system of laws would stipulate that a creator cannot sell his/her copyright but, in the interest of seeking the assistance of an agency which could promote their work, that they can license that right to them. A license which they can revoke when and if they decide to.

    57. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And again, re WOS Twitter.

      I posted this at 10.36pm yesterday –

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/counting-with-cretins/#comment-2391539

    58. Athanasius says:

      Is there not some eccentric multi-billionaire with a libertarian streak who’ll buy himself one of those micro nations in the pacific with their own sovereignty and .com designation and host all the free-speechers in the world beyond the grasping maw of the BBC and the EU?

    59. Footsoldier says:

      Perhaps Pete Wishart might clarify and answer these points directly on Wings.

    60. Bob W says:

      Angela/Artyhetty
      Try here:-
      https://twitter.com/wingsscotland

    61. William Habib Steele says:

      It looks as if it’s too late to write to MEPs to have it stopped. Why were we not told about this in time to write and have it stopped?

    62. Habib Steele says:

      It looks as if it’s too late to write to MEPs to have it stopped. Why were we not told about this in time to write and have it stopped?

    63. Angela says:

      Artyhetty at 7:33

      Thanks for your reply. If I find out how to fix it I’ll let you know.

    64. Stewart Lochhead says:

      Copyright taxes nearly killed community radio before it really got going. Greedy agencies demanded more than would allow the emerging stations to be sustainable. A  discount deal was negotiated but the taxes were still a significant expense.
       Even the legal obligation of recording the data to calculate the bill was an onerous job and cost money/time.

    65. Angela says:

      galamcennalath @ 8:11
      TJenny @ 8:26

      Thank you for your help.

    66. TJenny says:

      Angela – Stu tweeted yesterday that he was trying to get the rolling WOS Twitter tl back on the web page, but no luck so far, so I hope you found our various replies/instructions useful. 🙂

    67. Iain says:

      This message seems to be a sledgehammer to crack a very small nut.
      Don’t make this into a quiet office and pearl handled revolver moment.

    68. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      The art of drafting law is a fine one, because it requires lawmakers to understand the implications of proposed legislation in all its potentialities and not just in the starry eyes of its political promoters, who are often fixated on particular fairly narrow issues. That is not a trivial undertaking by any means, and goes well beyond woolly hand-waving assurances as to intent.

      And that’s without the insistent background whisperings of well-paid lobbyists with powerful interests to promote.

      It looks like the EUParl have got this one seriously wrong, at least in some of its draconian details, as Alyn Smith has already indicated.

      One wonders how, if there is to be no “fair usage” allowance under this proposed new regime, an academic eg. could possibly reference any text or quote from any other without getting prior clearance. (Some of whom might well be recently deceased.) How absurd. How could this possibly help promote intellectual discourse and the free exchange of information?

      It’s bonkers.

    69. Clapper57 says:

      Wow ….the things one does without knowing the potential detrimental consequences that one is self inflicting upon one’s own support network .

      If social media was restricted and unable to produce evidence to support it’s assertions, via copyright restrictions, then the substance of one’s argument is exposed to challenges….and will be.

      Perhaps Pete has not considered that he , in endorsing this, is potentially, in a round about way, cutting his nose off to spite his face.

      One of the strengths of WOS is that he can, via video evidence, verify and prove many deviations from previous policy promises made and now not implemented , previous statements made and now reversed, assurances given in the past and now not fulfilled etc etc….this is documented via videoed interviews, videoed political speeches and videoed political programmes. I find it strange that this effective tool which reinforces his argument should be withdrawn and somehow celebrated by someone from a party who owes so much to the person who runs this site.

      We also know how WOS has presented contradictory headlines from the same newspaper pre and post 2014 that supports his argument of how they contradict their own argument when it benefits them..in the assumption no one will remember their previous stance…however if he, WOS and others, are no longer able to use this as an effective weapon in exposing the hypocrisy then his/their argument are diminished.

      As a member of the SNP , and one who has been active in campaigns, I suggest that the focus of Mr Wishart and his colleagues should be on strengthening his support on the very people that support him and his party in their struggle to expose the hypocrisy and abuse of power displayed by opposition unionist parties. I also think that Brexit and Independence 2 is the predominant issue that deserves their immediate attention not in approving directives without full awareness of the possible negative consequences in other areas, such as social media.

      You see as much as I want independence I also want politicians who will achieve this to be mindful of all the facts prior to offering support and endorsement of any initiatives….as they say the devil is in the detail….miss that and one could live to regret ….this seems a lapse of judgement on Mr Wishart’s part which pains me to say….but at least , if nothing else, proves I , as an SNP Indy supporter, am not indeed ‘cultish’ or beyond criticising one of my own…. as in fellow SNP member who represents an area in Scotland as MP at WM.

      The race is on indeed.

    70. Rock says:

      SNP MPs achieve ZERO for Scotland at Westminster.

      Most of them have probably been bought off now.

      Their leader at Westminster is now firmly on the side of Saint Theresa and against Alex Salmond.

      Mark my words – Nicola will not call an independence referendum before Brexit has been “completed”, meaning crashed, and Scotland is at the mercy of Westminster for another 622 years at least.

      Why would SNP MPs and MSPs want to go into exile in Brussels when they are doing fine here, almost completely embedded into the Establishment?

    71. Clapper57 says:

      Appreciate that the following, after reading this, could be misinterpreted :

      ” as in fellow SNP member who represents an area in Scotland as MP at WM”

      I am of course referring to Mr Wishart in this NOT declaring that I am a fellow MP…Lol…oh to be able to articulate in a grammatically correct manner would be a blessing to me….. und others no doubt… Lol

    72. Illy says:

      This is one of those cases where mass disobediance might actually be worth considering.

      Link Taxes are stupid in the extreme, but very easy to have mass disobediance for. It also kills search engines. Either Google fights this, or ignores it and we have our high-profile disobedience case funded by Google’s lawyers.

      Wasn’t there something about keeping the internet open a while back? This probably conflicts with that.

      Link Taxes kill search engines.

      That should be the mantra against this crap.

      Link Taxes kill search engines.

      Link Taxes kill search engines.

      Link Taxes kill search engines.

      Link Taxes kill search engines.

    73. Bobp says:

      There will come a day when these people who hate Scotland will have to leave or forever look under their cars.

    74. lumilumi says:

      I’m horrified by this EU directive proposal.

      As Rev Stu says, “It is, by a country mile, the best reason there’s ever been to leave the EU.”

      All Finnish MEPs opposed, except the Centre Party ones. They’re mostly the kind that would call for a 9pm watershed on the Internet. Also, in government right now, so only too happy to shut down dissenting voices and criticism. However, all other domestic coalition government parties, and all domestic opposition parties thankfully saw the bigger picture and opposed this hideous directive proposal in the EU Parliament. (Due to our PR system, ALL governments are coalitions of several parties, it’s the normal way.)

      Our national public broadcaster YLE website first framed this as a great win for artists and creatives, interviewed a semi-popular Finnish musician, who had even travelled to Brussels and he was very happy about the outcome (Pete Wishart, much?)

      Only later another article gave a slightly more balanced view. First the celebratory views of the national body watching copyright (Teosto), who traditionally has negotiated deals with media, corporations, cultural and educational establishments etc. for compensating copyright holders for the use of their work. It’s very complex, (a friend of mine works for the body and has tried to explain it to me) but basically it’s designed for domestic use and some rare international cases. Basically a model fit for c. 1980 or so.

      It was only towards the end of the YLE article that they gave voice to the chair of EFFI, an association that promotes free, uncencored Internet and citizen’s digital rights. He, Ahto Apajalahti, said (translating here): “This time the entertainment industry won and ordinary net users lost. If this trend continues, the Internet will cease to be a network of equal users and it will become a pre-cencored mouthpiece of big corporations.” I’d add political elites to that.

      Before we get too hysterical about this, it is still a directive proposal and has to jump through several hoops, so it might not come to pass as is. Also, it’s a directive, not a regulation, so it’s up to member states how they interpret and implement it. As all but one political party in my country is againts it, I’d imagine it’d be implemented very lightly in my country. But it won’t help us much, if non-EU-countries geoblock us due to our EU IPs. (Simple VPN won’t help because sites like the BBC already block me when using one. But, thanks to some friends living in the UK (for now, before they’re chucked out due to Brexit) I have a more sophisticated VPN that bypasses them, bwahahaha.)

      I’ve always been pro-EU, with its faults, but by gods, old and new, this is turning me into a FIXITer!

      Oh, and I left a comment on that later YLE article, linking and briefly citing Rev Stu, while I still can… My point in the comment was that this proposal effectively silences all reasonable debate and criticism of the political elites and the mainstream media. It won’t affect the fact-free populist fringes, which won’t try to link to any MSM, just spout their own hatred and bile in their own bubble. So further polarises opinions and edges out all reasonable, fact-based debate.

      Plus memes, lovely memes, almost the only reason I venture to social media platforms, could become a thing of the past. Even if based one on a 500-year-old picture in the public domain, because some bastard big corp or copyright troll could claim Internet copyright, and platforms might not want the hassle and just pre-filter (censor) their uploads. So if I wanted to make a meme of, say, Mona Lisa wearing a moustache, I’d need to draw it all by myself, not photoshop the existing public domain picture. (Hm, could we see a flowering of creativity arising from this. Ever more people drawing their own thing resembling the real thing?)

      I’m a bit of a Luddite but even I see that this EU directive proposal is unworkable, will hurt small businesses and citizen activism.

      Gods, I’m so ANGRY about this!!!

      Completely O/T. This is written on my shiny, tiny, brand new laptop. I’ve been pleasantly surprised how easy it’s been to get rid of Win10 chuff and make it work like my old trusty Win7 workhorse. But I absolutely love the keyboard and the screen (full HD, of course) on this. And the touchpad! My previous laptop’s touchpad was so bad and clunky that it wasn’t a real alternative to my well-trained mouse hand. But this! I’ll ditch the mouse except for some very specific tasks.

      Too bad I won’t be able to enjoy all the opportunities offered by this lovely new laptop if the EU copyright directive really passes.

    75. A2 says:

      This is not even good for most musicians unless they happen to be in the upper echelons of the music biz and it’s probably not great for them either, it’s just the modern version of “home taping is killing music” which was always a lie. it’s going to starve new/unknown and niche artists of any exposure. want to upload your own stuff or a cover recorded in your bedroom, you’ll be stuffed.

    76. Liz g says:

      Bobp @ 11.11
      Aw behave yer self.
      We’re no doing this to ruin Scotland wi violence.
      There’s nobody here will agree to that shit.
      It will be done right,nobody will be scared to live here.
      So pack in the cryptic threats

    77. Fraser Darling says:

      I think (am sure) that Pete Wishart is talking purely from the personal point of view of a musician. You can see his point, one wonders how musicians can make any income at all from their trade.

      I think that (very uncharacteristically) the article and the comments above miss the context in which the tweet was made.

      Perhaps PW has not considered the full implications, however, when commenting on the basis of a musician, I think that he is entitled to do exactly that.

    78. uno mas says:

      @Bobp 11.11pm

      “There will come a day when these people who hate Scotland will have to leave or forever look under their cars.”

      Would that be to look for the keys that they just dropped?

      Nah bob we don´t need any of that stuff.

      Go and sit in the sin bin for ten minutes and cool down.

    79. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bobp @ 23:11,

      Now what exactly do you mean by that inflammatory little hint?

      Even if it was a slightly more moderate reference to old GDR practice of checking on arrivals/departures with a mirror, it isn’t representative of any kind of repressive or vengeful society I want to see post-indy.

      This is precisely the kind of dark nods and winks that is guaranteed to scare off potential converts, so I’m wondering what you’re trying to achieve…

    80. Liz g says:

      Fraser Darling @ 11.44
      Problem is, PW is no paid to have a personal musician point of view!
      He is supposed to do whats in the best interests of Scotland!
      And keeping the internet available for us to communicate is in the whole of Scotland’s best interests!

    81. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @lumilumi (11.29) –

      I hope everyone sees your comment there, it is properly illumilumiluminating as a complement to Rev’s post.

      🙂

    82. Hamish100 says:

      OT
      Walker Crisps last month promoted regional flavours for Britain. The North – no not Caithness, Orkney or Shetland, the south, Wales, the midlands.
      Scotland as a region likes pickled onion as a region of Britain apparently. We are not a country it appears. NI and the Republic of Ireland were not part of the flavours but you could still submit a competition form. When did ROI become part of Briton?
      I got a lovely wee response from Walkers this evening.
      ” It was never our intention to cause offence with this campaign, we were simply looking to celebrate the more quirky flavours enjoyed across all corners of the UK”
      They really don’t get it, these folk from the north Uk.

    83. Cubby says:

      Bobp@ 11.11pm

      You are way out of order with that comment. Totally unacceptable. Sounds like the sort of comment a sneaky Britnat would make or a complete nutter.

    84. Dr Jim says:

      Pete’s been away along time in a much slower country with an easier life and still thinks in terms of things with wires, he probably still carries 4 pennies for the phone and a pencil sharpener for his head

      This looks like one of these typical run for years proposals then it just fades away to nothing because technology keeps running fster than the groaners can keep up and wiser heads prevail …..we hope!

    85. Dr Jim says:

      Pete’s been away along time in a much slower country with an easier life and still thinks in terms of things with wires, he probably still carries 4 pennies for the phone and a pencil sharpener for his head

      This looks like one of these typical run for years proposals then it just fades away to nothing because technology keeps running faster than the groaners can keep up and wiser heads prevail …..we hope!

    86. Liz g says:

      Hamish 100 @ 12.19
      And they still don’t get it.. We are “currently” one half of the UK, the partner nation,not one of its corners.

      OTOH… I am glad that we are not putting up with it anymore and are letting them know it !

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      I agree with Capella that as a musician he is thinking only in terms of performing rights. But looking at his twitter feed, he’s made this reply to criticisms or similar another time:

      “I’m always amazed at how people can so easily be taken in by all the nonsensical propaganda from the big tech companies and the Pirates.”

      But they were making criticisms, not quoting an “oracle”, and he wouldn’t know if they’d read such stuff either. It’s not a very clever way to dismiss someone’s criticism or argument.

    88. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyways, as a follow up to the article in The National about the “British” army occupation of Scotland after the Jacobites risings, a lot of comments on that thread for a change, and some interesting stuff too. Here’s the website of the authors of the article:

      https://sites.google.com/site/stennishs/faq/marker-size

    89. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry, meant to give the intro link:

      https://sites.google.com/site/stennishs/home

    90. Redshift says:

      The increasing restrictions on individuals’ voices on the internet can only easily be applied to centralised, client-server based web services. The expanding attempts to control things may well help start a greater usage of of more decentralised forms of information exchange like peer-to-peer or onto the use of hidden “dark web” services (esp TOR based) where its not clear in which jurisdiction information is being hosted. I think there’s a good chance that the natural human sense of wanting to be free from censorship & propaganda will break the current system and allow something better to develop.

    91. Macart says:

      I believe Mr Wishart to be wrong in this. Badly wrong. You can’t put a price on the public’s freedom to monitor political debate and fact check media output.

      The indy movement is where it is today because it utilises the new media so effectively. Its freedoms gives them tools and a voice where before they had none. He really wants to rethink this.

    92. twathater says:

      Fust sent this to Alyn Smith would ask if more posters could do the same to let him know strength of feeling

      To

      alyn [dot] smith [at] europarl [dot] europa [dot] eu

      Message body
      Hi Allan please read the impact this reform will have on ordinary normal people whose access to truth and exposing corruption and misinformation will be severely curtailed or stopped altogether

      The Chords Of Damocles

      The Chords Of Damocles
      Readers may have noted a fairly concerted attempt over the last 18 months or so by the opponents of Scottish ind…

      I also commented

      This to me indicates the NOT very joined up thinking of the EU and people with vested interests eg Pete Wishart , this is a massive sledgehammer to crack a monkey nut .

      This as you say Stu will make it ALMOST impossible if not IMPOSSIBLE to run this site and ANY other site or blogger who wants to expose the lies and duplicitous behaviour of any msm , or politician .

      This is massive protectionism of the neo corporatists granted by European law supposedly and wrongly under the auspices of protecting against copyright infringements
      Music artists have long complained that the compilation disc companies have not been paying the proper royalties for their work but surely even they must realise that this deliberate and regressive legislation is an outrageous assault on freedom of speech and democracy

      As in TTIP , Catalonia , CETA , Greece , I have to wonder just whose interests the EU works on behalf of and my trust in this organisation and their representatives is lessening

      There are many comments from supporters of Scotland;s Independence who have GRAVE concerns that these regulations are designed to stop or severely impact the ordinary citizens ability to access TRUTH and expose blatant lies and corruption . Articles 11 and 13 should not be amended , they should be removed completely as they are a direct assault on freedom of speech and democracy

    93. lumilumi says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood (12.11am 13.9.2018, above)

      Haha, I love your “illumilumiluminating” neologism there.

      I’m glad some of the old guard still remember me though I haven’t been active commenting here – but I read WoS (and WoS Twitter) and a lot of the comments every day. I rarely comment myself nowadays, but this absolutely dogs dinner EU atrocity brought me out of my lurking state here and several other places. I’m just so ANGRY.

      Thanks to Rev Stu, I’ve been able to link to a very good explanation as to why this EU directive proposal is toxic and plain wrong, in some other places on the Internet where I’ve ranted about this.

      I don’t usually even rant, but this ill-concieved, techologically ignorant and plain badly written piece of manure from the EU is making me, a pro-EU person, toy with the idea of FIXIT.

      Consider this: many outwith EU Internet platforms won’t feel it’s worth their effort to comply with the crazy legislation, so it’s easier just to geoblock. So EU countries could end up with a “Eurinet” detached from the rest of the world, unless you have advenced VPN tools.

      How is the EU supposed to grow in the future digital economy if it regulates it to 1970s level.

      Gods, I’m sooo ANGRY!!!! At stupidity!!!!

      And ranty. Apologies.

      PS. lumi in my language means snow. Love the stuff, the more, the better. My country’s infrastructure can cope with it. My car has studded winter tyres. If enough snow, I can go X-country skiing right out my front door. I’ll try to think of snow, slow and tranquil, to calm down from my ranty mode about the idiotic EU directive proposal. Sigh.

    94. Petra says:

      Don’t forget that the Alex Salmond Show is on RT at 7:30am, 6:30 and 11:30pm today, folks.

    95. Nana says:

      Links

      https://news.gov.scot/news/oil-and-gas-sales-up

      https://digitalpublications.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefings/Report/2018/9/12/Post-Brexit-plans-for-agriculture

      This was the Prime Minister today telling me that she hadn’t seen the questions I asked and she answered earlier this year. These questions will continue to be asked until we find out what has been going on
      video
      https://twitter.com/DeidreBrock/status/1039845325421400064

      https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/school-uniform-grant-pledge-met-across-scotland

    96. Nana says:

      Ian Blackford MP: “The Prime Minister is unfit to govern, she’s incapable of leadership, we know it, her backbenchers know it and the country knows it.”
      https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/videos/2108448599408808/

      https://macalbasite.wordpress.com/2018/09/11/the-lies-of-labour-education-in-scotland/

      https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2018/09/12/its-my-baw-and-im-no-playing/

      The SNP has called on the UK Government to ensure freedom of movement post-Brexit following a warning it could lead to the shutdown of North Sea platforms.
      http://archive.is/nWob5

    97. Nana says:

      The risk of Defra not delivering everything it had originally intended for a no deal scenario is high and, until recently, not well understood by the department, says our latest report:
      https://twitter.com/NAOorguk/status/1039800436855857154

      Day-to-day effects of no-deal Brexit stressed in new impact papers
      http://archive.is/iTkpl

      Brexit: the fourth division
      http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86992

      Sky News obtains Government letter to EU27 member states acknowledging No Deal risks to travel continuity, Transport Secretary Chris Grayling seeking side deals on aviation and roads
      https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1039941220733202434

    98. Tom says:

      Here’s my view:

      I’ve written some novels, which haven’t sold. But if they were to suddenly take off and become popular,I would like to earn some money from them.

      If people were about them or doing fan-fic or were trying to get copies to find out what happens in the next one. I don’t think I would be too bothered. What I would object to, would be people selling unauthorised copies.

      My objections would be to other people making money from them, you know take copies and sell on their own website.

      People who genuinely liked them and were fans – No objections to them doing all the stuff fans do.

      And in writing these, there were going to be song lyrics in them. One character was going to be quoting Space Oddity to annoy other people, anyway I had to change all that because I didn’t want Bowie’s estate getting upset with me. (I don’t know for sure that they would – but I didn’t want to take the chance).

      There has to be sensible balance. These laws go too far.

    99. Vronsky says:

      “the people you least suspect”

      It’s been quite some time since Pete Wishart was a member of that group.

    100. Breeks says:

      Who is the driving force behind this motion? What are they trying to achieve? Is the suppression of satire, critical comment, or constructive debunking of misleading propaganda the actual objective of the motion or inadvertent byproduct?

      Would an Independent Scotland be able to veto this directive? Why won’t any other EU Nation veto it?

      Since it would appear most musiciany types see merit in the proposals, then there seems to be a need for some tightening up of copyright legislation, which many disinterested parties don’t fully grasp, and the suppression of critical dissent and debunking references to content is a very important defect in the proposals as they stand.

      A reason to stay out of the EU? Oh how very British. – Bullshit. A prime example of why Scotland should be IN the EU with a a voice, steering capacity and a sovereign veto as powerful as anybody’s.

    101. Ken500 says:

      The SNP do not support it. Individual countries make the decision.

      Runrig will have made lots of dosh and still be making royalties.

    102. Breeks says:

      Curious. Why were the SNP wearing what looks like barley on their lapels?

    103. gus1940 says:

      What a pathetic shambles we have with the BBC replaceemnt for The Daily Politics.

      It is so awful that much as I detest Brillo and all he stands for – bring back the old show – at least it was watchable.

      The new one is like a Political Loose Women Show – whoever thought of the format should be sacked.

    104. Nana says:

      SNP to hold national ‘day of action’ on Scottish independence

      http://archive.is/A9qqg

    105. gus1940 says:

      When is something going to be done about the UK Government’s action of paying for journalists across the dead tree press?

      It seems to have slipped through without any Bill or debate in parliament.

      How has this been allowed to happen?

    106. alan says:

      Good points. But the directive has not yet been passed – it now goes into a final stage where the European Parliament and Member States must reconcile their positions and agree a final text. There is still time to mobilise public opposition and make changes.

    107. Breeks says:

      Dominic Rabb shooting blanks again… “No deal without the whole deal”. The UK isn’t going to pay its €38billion divorce deal… again.

      I believe the whole continent of Europe was heard to sigh.

    108. gus1940 says:

      Surely it must be obvious to any sensient person being that Brexit is going to be a disaster for The UK.

      Is it not time for the sensible politicians at WM to give 2 fingers to the Brexit fanatics and their fan club in The Mail, Telegraph, Express and Murdoch rags and have the guts to stop the whole Brexit Fiasco and tell the EU that we want to stay as a member.

    109. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana.

      I wonder if the BBC, STV and newspapers will be reporting on the Scottish oil and gas figures, such as “Scotland’s share of production accounted for 96% of total UK crude oil and NGL output, while overall Scottish oil and gas production equates to 81% of the UK total.”

      Now it’s high time that they started telling the truth because I’m sick and tired of talking to people who say that, ” there’s no oil left” due to the propaganda techniques, cherrypicking and omission, being used by the BBC, STV and newspapers. The same corrupt cabal that keep telling everyone that Scotland can’t go it alone due to some massive, mythical, financial black hole. Our oil and gas has been keeping 60 plus million people in the UK afloat for decades now. Imagine what it could do for 5 million people only. Top of the list, our own Scottish Broadcasting Service.

      https://news.gov.scot/news/oil-and-gas-sales-up

    110. Breeks says:


      Nana says:
      13 September, 2018 at 7:59 am
      SNP to hold national ‘day of action’ on Scottish independence…

      “However, Mr Brown also suggested that plans for a re-run of 2014’s vote may have to be pushed back if the timetable for the Brexit negotiations slips.
      “It’s not fair to confront people with another constitutional question when the constitutional question of Brexit is as yet unresolved,” he said.”…

      IS HE FKN KIDDING???

    111. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Another good batch Nana. You’re on a roll. 🙂

      The final one is interesting on several levels, though I’ll have a ruminate about that for a while. As for yon Tory McToryface Golden? Shock SNP takes action on thing SNP is elected to take action on.

      They really should have IQ tests in vetting their members. 😀

    112. Nana says:

      Morning Petra

      Report re oil & gas figures from Newsnet
      https://newsnet.scot/news-analysis/scotlands-oil-and-gas-sales-up-18-2/

      Morning Macart

      Is it almost time for indy2? How much more of these lying, arrogant, backwards thinking & xenophobic criminals are we prepared to put up with?

      The prime minister is to hold a special three-hour cabinet meeting to discuss preparations for a no-deal Brexit.
      http://archive.is/av0wj

    113. Capella says:

      If you have 50 mins today, here’s a great interview with Chris Hedges in the Toronto Public Library. Yes, they still have public libraries in Toronto.

      Covers current issues including net censorship, mass surveillance (remember Theresa May spent her ministerisl life in the “Home Office”), exclusion from the mass media for critics of the rogue state, suppression of democratic means of social change etc. All relevant to us.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHYyYN4vBFY

    114. Petra says:

      Why won’t Theresa May answer Deirde Brock’s questions about Aggregate IQ? It must be really annoying for her that she just can’t just hide away like Ruth Davidson. And that’s another reason why Ruth doesn’t want to be PM. That and the fact the charlatan knows that she’s not got what it takes. Her sole policy of saying “no to independence” won’t hack it at Westminster. Baby lending her a helping hand already, imo.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1039855441843564545

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-43562388#

      ………………..

      Another one for Tory Annie Wells to ponder over. High time she and Dirty Money Davidson hightailed it down south. Tory run England is in dire need of you, by the looks of it.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/doctor_oxford/status/1039528917336510466

    115. Dr Jim says:

      Michael Heseltine says on radio Scotland this AM that Brexit is about immigration and nothing else no matter what they tell you but there’s not enough people arguing against this madness except Ken Clarke

    116. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Yes I’ve caught a whiff of Raab’s telegraph letter with the usual dog whistle, drum banging bull. No deal, no payment sabre rattling.

      No. I don’t believe the UK would be allowed to get away with it either. Nor do I buy that ANY kind of Brexit will go down well with the populations on these islands. Just as a refresher, there are four scenarios. Soft = 700k job (paypackets) Medium = Little over a million jobs, Hard = Little over two million jobs and No deal = unquantifiable. As late as last year they were talking of only three scenarios. (shrugs)

      THAT was just the jobs angle. Damage to and loss of supply chains, customs, portage, airspace, loss of trade, business closures, industries and producers in every sector affected. But y’know. Stay calm because … reasons.

      Not entirely sure that those folks about to lose their livelihoods are going to be very calm. Fairly certain that those who are under threat of deportation and having their lives uprooted because their point of origin was continental Europe won’t see Mr Raab’s POV either. I’m absolutely sure that folk who voted NO four years ago are looking really hard at UK gov about now and thinking of voting along VERY different lines given a second opportunity.

      Back to Mr Golden’s idiocy for a second though. I’d like to reverse his statement a little. Tories also continue to obsess over one thing… their party and self interest first, last and always. It’s kinda what Tories do.

      Just as well other folk take an interest in the needs of a population.

    117. Petra says:

      @ Breeks at 8:15am …. “IS HE FKN KIDDING ???”

      Breeks I wish you would calm down. This was reported on here a few days ago. It’s not “new” news. Nicola Sturgeon, like the rest of the planet, thought the Brexit issue would be clarified by October 2018. Seems not (maybe). Many people won’t vote for independence until they know which way Brexit is going to go … No deal or whatever. If Nicola Sturgeon had to jump in now we would lose, imo. She’s played a blinder so far. Try having some faith in her and don’t forget she knows a great deal more than you or I know, such as what’s going on behind the scenes …. what she’s been doing behind the scenes. We’ve waited for over 300 years for this (with a blip in 2014). Why botch it up now? Have some patience and we’ll win hands down.

    118. manandboy says:

      FORGET NAIVE DREAMS OF A WEALTH SHARING INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND

      It’ll be business as usual for Scotland’s ruling classes – corrupt politicians and voracious business & land owners. The handover of the suppression and exploitation of the vast majority of Scotland’s population will be seamless.
      Or will it?
      Not if the grassroots Independence movement remains alive & well, it won’t.
      This will be vital if there is to be a truly new Scotland ; not like the old Scotland we have now.

      https://randompublicjournal.com/2018/09/13/conflict-and-independence/

      “When we speak of conflict today in the Scottish independence movement, this is the same conflict: A power struggle between those who want to assume power as a new native-born Scottish ruling class and those who want genuine democratic independence.

      The greatest mistake we – those of us seeking independence for a better Scotland – can make at this important moment in the campaign is to assume this conflict is not already live. It is. We would like to think that the movement is all about gaining independence first and then hammering out our differences. This is a nice idea, but it is naïve. No ruling class in-waiting is ever going to play by those childish and politically innocent rules. Those in Scotland who think of themselves as entitled to a place in the dominant class and those who see their future safeguarded by their allegiance to that class are already jostling for position. Wheels within wheels are turning, and it is all happening right under our noses.”

    119. Marie Clark says:

      Well said Petra @ 8.59. I know that it’s frustrating for all of us, but I think we do have to trust Nicola. As you say, she has more knowledge of what is going on than we do.

      She will call Indyref2 when she judges that the time is right. Come on folks, eyes on the prize, it’s so close now, let’s not blow it by moving too soon.

      I do put my trust in Nicola to do the right thing for Scotland.

    120. stu mac says:

      At least the SNP MEPs are against the new EU legislation.
      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16838259.european-parliament-backs-controversial-copyright-reform-opposed-by-the-snp/

      Not surprisingly Tories are for it (and for right wing near-fascist regimes like in Hungary). Paul McCartney for it too but he looks like a Tory.

    121. Daisy Walker says:

      I posted this last night, but was having internet issues, so it didn’t appear. Sigh.

      For Pete Wishart not to see the bigger picture with this, given his current occupation is very poor. I know he reads Wings Over Scotland because he has mentioned it (very favourably) many times in public meetings.

      Wings Over Scotland is a leading light for Indy. We cannot afford to lose it, and other sites like it.

      If the EU adopt this measure, with the international corporate software installed it will still apply automatically to the UK even if it is not an EU member. For a technophobe like myself I will not be able to negotiate my way round the internet to access sites like this – though I’m sure some people will be able to.

      If we can’t get access to real information and fact, can’t make informed votes, end up with red or blue tories – then the systematic destruction of our welfare state, our free education, support for cultural events, will mean the demise of things like gaelic and traditional music. No Runrig of the future. The next generation and those after won’t have to worry about copyright, they won’t get the chance.

      We support Wings Over Scotland with money.

      I think we need to ensure our SNP Party understands fully, at every level, the depth of our feelings, and we need to demand they support this fundamental freedom of speech.

      Pete Wishart needs to think again.

    122. Macart says:

      @Petra

      Pretty much. The FM has been crystal clear on the circumstances since the beginning tbf. The population of Scotland will be given a choice, but when the details of Brexit outcomes are finalised and made clear.

      Doesn’t matter whether we personally like that or not. It’s not just about us. It’s about everyone’s lives in Scotland. Those that’d vote with us and those that’d vote against. You need to know what you’re voting for and against in any ballot. Voting blind by some folk is what got into this shitstorm in the first place.

      I think Brexit of any stripe will be bad, catastrophic even. But I don’t know which scenario it’s going to be. A fair idea mind, but not the final deal. The FM gave her assurance that we would be given a choice when that detail was made public. That’s the fair and right thing to do by her office and her duty as a First Minister. (Though God knows, it can lead to severe IBS for the rest of us) 😀

    123. Dr Jim says:

      Oil and gas in the North of the UK sea is set to drop dramatically in value over the next few months because the consistancy and the amount of oil has all gone bad and smelly and worthless and won’t burn like other oil everywhere else on planet earth Sir Ian Wood will be telling us two or three nights a week on STV and BBC news

      We will be saved by Englands oil which is in the southern part of the northern part of the sea formerly known as Scottish waters because thankfully that English oil will remain good and the English being a *warm and generous people* said Mrs Thatcher, will share the bounty or their waters with us but only if Scotland votes for the newly renamed Tory party *Union British Reich*

      Ruth Davidson leader of the northern branch of that party has urged the electorate to follow follow her to a new and exciting future and will be appearing nightly across all media platforms in Scotland to engage the real peepul of Scotland in that debate

      You know what’s so sad, we all know this’ll happen! and we expect it to

    124. Breeks says:


      Petra says:
      13 September, 2018 at 8:59 am
      @ Breeks at 8:15am …. “IS HE FKN KIDDING ???”

      Breeks I wish you would calm down. This was reported on here a few days ago. ……She’s played a blinder so far….

      Well speaking as one of the ones left “blinded” by this bizarre “playing possum” strategy, I am biting my lip not call them a gutless bunch of timid drips who have a weird, and sadly a supine and very uncomfortable “British” perspective on the question of Scotland’s Sovereignty.

      Our “strategy” seems not to play any meaningful and constructive part in the Constitutional battle, but show up in strength once it’s all over.

    125. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says:

      Warning- may raise the blood pressure

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16838073.this-is-why-the-window-to-hold-indyref2-opens-after-brexit/

      Some of what Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp says, I agree with. Some I’m not so sure.

      He’s right that the YES movement needs to fire up its engines and make moves. We can’t / shouldn’t wait for the SNP leadership. There is relentless anti Indy campaigning with status polls,, so when pro Indy campaigning takes off in earnest we are bound to see a poll shift to Yes.

      He says folks need to see the effects of Brexit. My problem here is that (IMO) the most likely scenario is a Blind Brexit and transition period. With that, little will change and the final arrangements could be years away. Even if the EU insist on greater clarity with the Withdrawal Agreement, nothing much will change during the transition period, no pain will be felt.

      Under these circumstances we might even get the opposite effect where people look around during transition and think, “that wasn’t so bad, business as usual”.

      Ok, so it could take a different turn, like a No Deal Brexit. My problem then would be we will know that before the Exit, and should act immediately because the outcome will be known, and known to be catastrophic. Polls will shift as soon as folks realise a No Deal crash is coming.

    126. bittie45 says:

      We need copyright laws to protect genuine effort that’s gone into art, design and software, but any legislation which is complex can have unforeseen effects, will affect almost everyone, and is a potential recipe for disaster. It depends on the interpretation of the law in the courts and the whims of the judges.

      All it takes is a giant corporation to generate a massive amount of strategic short phrases, patterns, images and coding, then to aggressively pursue the competition, to totally suffocate all creativity and innovation stone dead, creating an even more massive monopoly.

      Even the publishing of scientific papers might be affected because of the repercussions of referencing anything.

      Interesting how China’s economy has boomed during a period with “light” application of patent/ copyright laws.

    127. Fred says:

      @ Nana, thanks for the lynx, Barrhead Boy VG!

      @Yesindy, interesting site, at the west end of Loch Arkaig there is a wee gable-end beside the road with a wee window looking east. All that remains of a Red-coat post, stone & lime so must have been permanent!

    128. Iain mhor says:

      The “Directive” may or may not fly.
      I suspect it will be stalled when the penny drops, that in its current form, it will kill advertising and online retail stone dead.
      Images, music, reviews, comments, endorsements and… Links

    129. Brian Powell says:

      ‘day of action’ to take the temperature for Ind? We don’t need to take the temp we need to raise the temp.

    130. orri says:

      Not sure about the legal enforcing of any putative BBC refusal. Fair Use won’t have changed.

      However what will change is that rather than waiting for complaints and acting in a draconian manner Google will implement preventative measures.

      It’s a bullying tactic that may very well backfire. IF Google has a database of news reports which they would have to have for any kind of filter to work then it will be able to identify a news clip. From that it will make a Fair Use choice to let the clip be uploaded. And the next time the BBC tries their strong arm tactic they’ll get told to get to fuck.

      It certainly won’t stop people complaining to Google/Yahoo but it may very well make it in their commercial interests to ensure that they stand up for their users.

      What might an implication of this is that even discussion sites may have to go fully pre-moderated rather than retro just in case any quotes or links fall foul of this legislation.

    131. Nana says:

      Last for now

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-mass-surveillance-gchq-eu-human-rights-echr-edward-snowden-a8535571.html

      A lawsuit between music producer Frank Peterson and YouTube (and Google) that has been ongoing since 2009 did not come to an end today. The German Federal Court of Justice (FCJ) decided to stay the proceedings and refer several questions to the CJEU, regarding (once again) the question of platform liability and the right of communication to the public.

      http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2018/09/breaking-fcj-refers-case-regarding.html

    132. Jim McIntosh says:

      Surely we know any brexit is bad for Scotland, not to mention the power grabbing of EU powers going to Westminster instead of Hollywood which I think is just as important as brexit final deal. The only reason I can see for any reasonable delay is the chance brexit was called off.

    133. Nana says:

      Macart says

      (Though God knows, it can lead to severe IBS for the rest of us)

      Thanks, I needed a laugh!

      Watching Theresa May’s facial contortions, I would say she suffers greatly from that other medical condition logorrhoea 🙂

    134. Dr Jim says:

      I don’t want to wait for Indyref but post Brexit of whichever kind, no deal or bad deal the Great British £ is going to hit the floor so without knowing how far down it’s going to go I wouldn’t want to be the one gambling on Mibbees the polls will move, I’d rather everybody in Scotland was able to see clearly exactly what the English government have done then say well! what do you want to do Scotland

      No matter what way you slice the timing there are still too many people who believe *it’ll all be OK* maybe it’s right to say *Look it’s crap d’ya want Independence*

      Not an easy decision so I’m glad I don’t have to be the one to make it and smarter folk with more information than me I think are better placed to do what we pay them for

      The FM said she never wanted to lose another Indyref, me neither the prospects of that are way more frightening

    135. paul mccormack says:

      Stu Mac 9.17

      ‘Not surprisingly Tories are for it (and for right wing near-fascist regimes like in Hungary)’

      Stu Mac, please allow me to try and dissuade you from this popular misconception mainly put about by the BBC and the Guardian journalists from a wholly Western perspective.

      Historically (heavily abridged), the Turks occupied and decimated Hungary for 500 years. post-Trianon 1926, it is nothing short of a miracle that Hungary still exists as a nation state (10M population + worldwide diaspora). Then the aristocrats under the Austrian Hungarian empire played their imperialist war games (with failed uprisings to displace them). The Magyars survived Nazi occupation and post WWII Hungary survived the Soviet regime replete with the full-on experience of Koestler’s Darkness at Noon (The Gulags) documented in the Terrorhaz museum and communist rule only fell there in 1989.

      Thereafter, politically, my understanding is that the careerist politicians of the communist regime re-branded themselves as liberals and after a series of ineffective corrupt governments the population have opted for Fidesz (yes right-wing by western standards) as a government that looks out for Hungary’s interests from the point of view of the preservation and survival of this small country’s culture. The Magyars have always viewed themselves as ‘outsiders’ having migrated from Mongolia into the Carpathian basin.

      Now i too on the face of it, like yourself, may not happen to agree with much of Orban Viktor’s statutes, but I can at least understand why and not adopt the hypocritical Western view from especially the UK. By the way, The UK has ‘a wall’ – its called the English channel and the North sea.

      I have been in Hungary now about 20 times over the past 7 years and have been slowly learning the language.

      I believe that there are similarities between the national psyches of the nation states of Scotland and Hungary.

      In perspective, the Orban government has only been in power for about 10 years in opposition to the former communist ‘liberals’. They will go in time. You really have to see it in historical perspective.

      To refer to Hungary as a near fascist right wing regime is just nowhere near the truth and perpetuates a basic gross Western misunderstanding.

      This heavily abridged rant attempts to re-address this misconception. The hypocrisy of this land knows no bounds. Especially the BBC and Guardian journalists.

    136. auld highlander says:

      Thanks for posting that indyref2 @ around 12.50 ish am, very interesting and they would do the same again tomorrow given half the chance.
      https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KeQIHzfPDw_lEsE4U1mMIW0-PuJUdWij/view

    137. bittie45 says:

      Although this will affect most industries, I suspect the impetus to change copyright law began with the music industry.

      If the recording corporations hadn’t been so greedy during the period when CDs were in full production, and charged £2 to £3 instead of the ridiculous £10-£15 when the disks cost literally only pence to produce, then there wouldn’t have been nearly the urge for pirating in the first place.

      Ironically it was the artists who suffered the most financially from this overpricing through huge potential sale losses combined with the low royalties per CD they received.

      If this legislation gets finalised, it will again be the self-serving corporate giants who benefit, and not the artists and musicians, who are being mislead. Badly.

    138. Schrodingers cat says:

      @gala
      Agreed. A recent poll highlighted this and the mood music from wm is pointing to a no deal scenario
      In truth the only options there ever were. Was to stay in the cu/sm or at least ni to do so. Neither option was ever going to be palatable to the tory mps.

    139. Eppy says:

      Just saw the following headline on Yahoo when I went to check e-mails.

      Barnier confronts Raab over discovery of Brexit no-deal letters to EU27

      Went to check on BBC. Nothing. It seems that Dominic Raab has been reprimanded by Michel Barnier after the EU’s chief negotiator discovered the British government had written to the 27 other member states asking for side negotiations on transport in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

      Naughty.

      Also, the BBC does’t even have a main category for Brexit on its web page. I finally found it tucked away under Politics as a sub-heading. Obviously not too important then.

    140. Dr Jim says:

      FMQs at 12 noon

    141. galamcennalath says:

      Moody’s reporting a No Deal Brexit could cause a UK recession …. No Shit, Sherlock!

      Joking aside, it’s good that serious and respected investments agency are contradicting the loony right Brexiteers.

    142. Valerie says:

      @ paul mccormick

      What?? I bloody hope there are no similarities between Hungary and Scotland’s attitudes.

      Regardless of their history, that has no bearing on their anti migrant, anti Semitic agenda. Orban is a white supremacist strongman type in the mould of Trump and Netanyahu.

      This has been coming for a long time, as usual, the EU has been slow. The biggest disappointment is EU failure to act in a similar way after Catalonia, and now over lack of action on political prisoners.

    143. cirsium says:

      @Nana, 8.42
      thanks for the link – you were right about raising the blood pressure. Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp makes some good points but others like waiting for the polls and making arrangements for the Indyref after Brexit made me uneasy, especially in view of the nascent governor general’s office being constructed in Leith and the talk of police powers to control riots (would these be food riots?). This btl comment resonated

      If we Brexit with rUK, we will be absorbed very quickly and rendered ineffectual. That is the Tory plan – the only one they have, actually – and both right-wing Brexiteers and the more moderate (and that doesn’t mean moderate in any sense that ordinary people might mean by the word) Tories are united on that.

      It is beginning to feel as if we have the role of the frog which doesn’t jump out of the water while it is being heated slowly.

    144. Shinty says:

      auld highlander says:
      13 September, 2018 at 11:11 am
      Thanks for posting that indyref2 @ around 12.50 ish am, very interesting and they would do the same again tomorrow given half the chance.
      https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KeQIHzfPDw_lEsE4U1mMIW0-PuJUdWij/view

      ______

      Are any of us really surprised? (all the same makes me want to greet seeing it written)

    145. Luigi says:

      galamcennalath says:

      13 September, 2018 at 10:00 am

      Nana says:

      Warning- may raise the blood pressure

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16838073.this-is-why-the-window-to-hold-indyref2-opens-after-brexit/

      Some of what Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp says, I agree with. Some I’m not so sure.

      My biggest concern is that May (or her replacement) will agree to a Section 30 order – with many strings attached. If that happens, we might as well go back into our boxes.

      IMO, we should have nothing to do with WM or Section 30. The further away the BritNats are away from our referendum, the better. We really don’t need them – why risk letting them interfere?

      So folk are worried that a consultative referendum, run by the Scottish government with no WM agreement, would be weak and subject to legal challenge? Fine, let them try. Legal challenges don’t seems to be harming Brexit in any way shape or form. A clear YES victory will be impossible for them to stifle. What are they going to do? Pretend it never happened? Aye right, that will go down well at the UN. 🙂

      If after IndyRef 2, the fight goes on, then it goes on: Whatever and however long it takes. You don’t defeat the BritNat establishment with one punch – you have to out-maneuver them and grind them down until they are knackered and throw the towel in. That’s the way with the imperialists – always has been.

    146. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      cirsium @ 12:00,

      Amen to that.

      A complete misjudgement of human psychology, IMO.

      It has been wisely said, never let a good crisis go to waste. Some seem desperate to offer the exact opposite advice. The cringe is strong.

    147. Cactus says:

      Congrats to all… Independence LIVE Autumn 2018 kitty sorted and rising.

      See ye at oor Edinburgh Autumn 2018 Kev. 🙂

      Arthur’s Seat would be good for foties.

      XI / X / MMXVIII.

    148. galamcennalath says:

      cirsium says:

      waiting for the polls and making arrangements for the Indyref after Brexit made me uneasy

      Agree. I commented on this at 10:00am.

      You are right to be mindful about the Tory’s alternative administration plans. They know a second bid for freedom is coming and they will throw everything they can into preserving their Union.

      IMO delaying is more dangerous than going early with Yes2 getting into full swing.

      No Brexit outcome is good for Scotland, and no particular outcome is necessarily better for Indy.

      Soft ‘Norway’ won’t help our cause at all
      Blind Brexit means we don’t know what will happen
      The Withdrawal Agreement will give a transition period
      No Deal could give the excuse for emergency powers

      None are worth waiting for!

    149. Shinty says:

      IMHO we need to have indyref2 before 29th March – even if it means a short winter campaign. Doesn’t bare thinking about what WM will do to Scotland after Brexit.

      PS will someone please get that ‘Ethnic Cleansing’ letter onto dissolvetheunion twitter. (I apologise in advance if it is and I’ve just missed it)

    150. Fred says:

      @ Nana, Theresa probably just wishes that she could vanish for a while till the Brexit fiasco is all over. A surprise pregnancy would tick all the boxes! 🙂

      Great news that Liberty House are to press ahead with the planned alloy-wheel plant at Fort William & provide work for 400 peeps. The long term plan is to use all the aluminium produced at Lochaber for this purpose.

      A new wind-farm in Badenoch will also help power Green-Steel production at Dalziel, Motherwell. The previous owners Rio Tinto intended to close the smelter altogether.

    151. orri says:

      Democracy has, to an extent, been suspended in Northern Ireland. Either clumsily or otherwise a block on elections to Stormont has been introduced. That means that should Sinn Fein decide to resign en mass there will be no electoral campaign to replace them. Obviously that runs the risk that in some instances where only one member is to be elected it turns in to a First Past the Post, rather than a modified version of the multi member model that accounts for members already elected being used so perhaps only those members who are reasonable assured of regaining their seat should risk it. Denying them the publicity of that kind of campaign is probably the aim.

      However the point is having tipped their hat that way it’s possible a similar tactic might be used in Scotland with Brexit as the excuse. That might be to force an extension on the current Holyrood session if it looks like the SNP could regain their majority. It might also be an overnight thing once the current one times out. Holyrood suspended in the interim is just the kind of sneaky thing those phuds would try.

    152. Cubby says:

      OT

      In yesterday’s Politics Scotland on the BBC the well known British Nationalist chat show Brewer unilaterally seems to have invented all on his own a new category of law called U.K. law.

      In a discussion with toodle ooh the noo on the continuity bill he says “in to both Scottish and U.K. Law”.

      There is of course Scots law and English law.

      Only a true Britnat could say this. Is this more deliberate brainwashing propaganda or is he just a prat.

    153. Schrodingers cat says:

      A s30 is desirable as it gives other countries the green light to recognise an independent scotland after a yes vote. So yes. A s30 but not at any price

    154. Capella says:

      Returning briefly to the main topic – what may happen is that users migrate to alternative hosts outwith the jurisdiction of the repressive West. How about migrating to VK i.e. VKontacte, the Russian social media platform.

      China also has alternatives to Google. Ali Baba anyone?
      if we’re going to be spied on and oppressed the repressive East might be a better choice.

      Competition in our imperial masters.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VKontakte

    155. paul mccormack says:

      Valerie says:

      11.58 @ paul mccormick

      Sorry this is OT (albeit with a very tenuous link to censorship) but,

      ‘What?? I bloody hope there are no similarities between Hungary and Scotland’s attitudes.’

      Hi Valerie, ‘Attitudes’ – your word not mine – Are you referring here to Governments or peoples? There is a world of a difference. I did however say that there were similarities to the two national ‘psyches’. (where a small nation is dominated by its neighbours) I did not intend to mean that there were similarities between the ‘actions’ of the two governments.

      ‘Regardless of their history’, – hmmm… I’m not so sure that is a valid political approach to the subject. I was only attempting to politically contextualise Hungary to give balance to the easy demonisation of a whole country in the post-soviet era when the population are faced politically with a binary democratic choice of Fidesz versus failed communist politicians under whatever banner. As I said, I believe that the governing Fidesz party in the longer term will pass.

      Incidentally, a quick fact check shows that Scotland has approx. 600 refugees whereas Hungary has in fact, 500 regardless of the zero refugee policy. This is unpalatable. But when you are a land-locked nation bordered by 9 countries i can begin to understand – not personally agree (which I know is neither here nor there) with such a political approach. As I said, it is easy to view this policy from a position of the UK with its own national walls and fences in the form of open water.

      By the way, Scotland is also like Hungary in the respect that there are many different peoples who co-exist quite happily within the nation states borders and always have done so.

      Of course, yes I can see the similar characterisations between Orban and Netanyahu etc. and the cringing cosying up by Farage. That is deeply worrying for Hungarians.

      And lastly Yes, the silence over Catalonia by the EU is deafening.

      Sorry to go on, but I have no desire to be misconstrued. I guess that what I am really trying to say in relation to the refugee crisis is that Hungary is just not France or Germany and let me assure you that I am no apologist for Orban’s government.

    156. Golfnut says:

      I think its important to reiterate just what the FM said regarding a Section 30 Order. She told us in plain English that she would seek permission from the Scottish Parliament to agree terms on a Section 30 order with westminster. Plainly, she isn’t asking permission from Westminster, she was seeking permission from Holyrood.

      But let’s be honest here, any agreement with westminster isn’t worth the paper its written on, recent events and revelations regarding the government’s conduct during indy1, the EU ref and the 2017 GE highlight just how venal and corrupt they are. Despite the section 30 order in 2014, we had massive external interference from foreign governments solicited by Westminster, the civil service abandoning its code of conduct to help the unionist arguments, think tanks paid for by Westminster and business and media colluding with government to frighten the electorate. Lies, misinformation, threats and intimidation from MP’s and Ministers.

      As far as a Section 30 order goes this time round. Holyrood should publish our terms, highlighting all of the above and demanding Westminster adherence to the principals of self determination under UN articles.
      Westminster will of course refuse. Round 1 Internationally to Scotland.

    157. orri says:

      Another thought might be that there may be plans to extend Brexit till after the next Holyrood elections in the hope that the pro-indy majority disappears. If you include a 2 year transition period and the unionists go big guns on how it won’t be clear what Brexit means till after then it’d provide a pretext for refusing s30 on the grounds that the SNP said they’d wait for clarity.

    158. Dr Jim says:

      Bryan Taylors desperation to insert his own words into the mouths of *his journalistic chums* is verging on panic now as he interviews himself post FMQs
      Then we move over to Tory MSP fishing farmer Jock who holds out his hand waiting for Bryan Taylor to tell him the answers to Joan McAlpines facts but all he can manage is to tell us what the *British* people want

      Ruth Davidsons contribution today was to point out clearly that she cares not a jot for education she just wants to win an argument that she ageed with in the first place, then flip flopped then changed back, then flip flopped again

      It’s Ruth’s silent screeching behind her eyes that gives her away every time….plus the lying of course

      There was a Labour guy on as well, haven’t a clue what he was on about he sort of fades into fog from the moment he stands up, Dickie Lombard or something ….Nah can’t remember

    159. Petra says:

      @ Breeks says at 9:51 am ….. ”Well speaking as one of the ones left “blinded” by this bizarre “playing possum” strategy, I am biting my lip not call them a gutless bunch of timid drips who have a weird, and sadly a supine and very uncomfortable “British” perspective on the question of Scotland’s Sovereignty. Our “strategy” seems not to play any meaningful and constructive part in the Constitutional battle, but show up in strength once it’s all over.”

      For the life of me I don’t get where you’re coming from Breeks and more than anything don’t know how you can castigate the SNP government in such a way. Who would you rather was in their place? You’ve got a great deal of negative comments to make about them, but little to say about who you actually support. Who would that be now?

      And what exactly do you want Nicola Sturgeon to do in the midst of all of this? Tell the UN and the EU that Scotland is sovereign? How’s that going to help us to win an independence referendum? Additionally, I’m sure that many connected individuals, UN, EU etc, will be well aware that the Scottish ”people” are sovereign but more than anything will know that a percentage of those sovereign people who voted to stay in the EU also wanted to remain in the Union: At the very least 12% of them. All sovereign Scots.

      The only reason that we’re where we are at the moment (preparing for another referendum to be called) is due to the Brexit fiasco, so what if at the end of the day, after Nicola Sturgeon called for a referendum, they backed out? Where would that leave us? With jam all over our faces. Big red faces and another humiliating defeat tooboot?

      When Nicola Sturgeon calls for a referendum she will have to set out her case to the Scottish people, in relation to currency, pensions etc … all over again. Maybe even get involved in the debates … all over again. Because we’ll be bailing out due to Brexit she will no doubt have to make comparisons, during debates (and speeches, if they’re broadcast), between Scotland remaining in a Brexited UK, with all that entails, versus Scotland being independent. You tell me how she’s going to do that right now when she has no (Brexit) facts to deal with? That, imo, is the simple reality, practicality, to all of this. Her ”strategy” doesn’t relate in any way, shape or form to ”a “British” perspective on the question of Scotland’s Sovereignty.” Thank God for that. More so thank God we’ve got her running the show and not some of the nincompoops that have been advocating since the day after the EU referendum, and the months between then and now, that she should hold an Independence Referendum. If she had we would have lost it, imo.

    160. Petra says:

      @ Nana says at 8:33 am – ”Morning Petra – Report re oil & gas figures from Newsnet.”

      https://newsnet.scot/news-analysis/scotlands-oil-and-gas-sales-up-18-2/

      Thanks for that Nana.

    161. Giving Goose says:

      Re Shinty

      Ethnic Cleansing letter? What is it, where is it, please?

    162. Petra says:

      Wee Ginger Dug:

      ‘Scotland will save itself from the Brexit asteroid.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16834706.scotland-will-save-itself-from-the-brexit-asteroid/

    163. Valerie says:

      @ paul mccormick

      Here’s what you typed:

      “To refer to Hungary as a near fascist right wing regime is just nowhere near the truth and perpetuates a basic gross Western misunderstanding.”

      I disagree vehemently with that statement. It is an apology for the Orban regime. You have conveniently left out the references I made to the various “anti” that Orban stands for.

      Like Trump, he trumpets White, Christian, European “values”. Various town mayors loudly state they want no Gay or Muslims in their town. In 2015, Orban erected 155km of 8foot razor wire fences on their Border to Serbia.

      The ECJ has ruled Hungary in breach of Human Rights in the detainment of migrants in disgusting conditions.

      Now, the massively slow machinery of the EU has ground into action to enact some kind of punishment. The Tories support Orban, because in common with the UK, academia in Hungary are trying to raise the alarm with letters etc.

      You say, keep it in perspective, he’s going to be out soon. No, he’s not, he’s just been elected with an even bigger majority. He says it’s an even better mandate to challenge Brussels. No wonder he’s the Tory poster boy.

      BUT, hey, Wingers, don’t refer to Hungary as fascist Right Wing, cos it’s a gross misunderstanding.

      Thanks for your take, Paul, but I’ll be ignoring it.

    164. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. TODAY.
      FIRST MINISTER’S QUESTIONS.

      ‘Broadcasting Scotland’ :

      https://tinyurl.com/y6ubzjwn

      Starts 1:41 in.

    165. Robert Peffers says:

      Well there is a solution to this daft proposed legislation. We all adopt either the Gaelic or the real lowland Scots language (as opposed to Scots Standard English).

      It would give aa yon algorithms and bots richt sair heids.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EVnK-pNxaA

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAz_UvnUeuU

      See yone muckle glaikt gyte gadgie Wishart? Dis he no ken yon legal process micht bi afu conter tae its ain intent?

    166. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 13:29,

      Breeks can of course speak for himself, but with respect I fear you may be missing his essential point, which is not mere SNPbaaad. It seems there is a thread of opinion within the SNP – as evidenced by some posters on here – that Brexit is a mere inconvenience which must be seen through and then we can get back to the “real business” of indy. That somehow the facts post-Brexit will somehow magically move opinion to the 60% level that they have always craved.

      Some of us think that this line of thought – with which Nicola for example is not so far associated – is fatally misconceived. For reasons explained in some of the recent postings on this thread, as well as earlier.

      It does no good for the SNP to be seen to be so uncertain in this manner, with most staying quiet as appropriate but a vociferous minority constantly urging excessive delay. It makes the SNP look as if it is uncertain, maybe even preparing to gaslight on assurances as to timing already given.

      That is the concern.

    167. Liz g says:

      Giving Goose @ 1.45
      You will find a link to the ethnic cleansing letter
      at Auld Highlander @ 11.11

    168. Petra says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland says at 2:00 pm … ”…That somehow the facts post-Brexit will somehow magically move opinion to the 60% level that they have always craved…”

      ”Post Brexit.” I presume you mean when we have a better idea of the outcome, such as a No Deal Brexit?

      ”That somehow the facts post-Brexit will somehow magically move opinion to the 60% level that they have always craved.”

      What else will magically move opinion, in the very near future, other than Brexit ”facts”, Robert?

    169. paul mccormack says:

      Hi Valerie,

      Thank you for your reply. I’m afraid it would appear that any ‘nuanced’ discussion on the actual matter i raised is just not possible.

      I never conveniently left out your references (its called brevity and sticking to a point). I happen to agree with your criticisms made and I dont give two hoots what the tories think.

      Anyway, I will draw a line here as I also refuse to fall out with any one here.

      Have a good day. All the best.

    170. Dan Huil says:

      FFS SNP do something radical! Have another HoC walkout – and make it permanent.

    171. Fred says:

      Some folk are determined to fight the last Indyref all over again, we lost that remember! The difference is that this time it’s Independence in the EU or Tory Brexit & as yet the peeps don’t know exactly what the latter is.

    172. Liz g says:

      Petra @ 2.24
      Well a Campaign might, I think that’s what this day of action thing might be about!
      It is a risk to wait till after Brexi.. in that I agree with Robert J.
      But when a lot of Scots just won’t wake up, what else can Nicola do, but wait for the clarity of the Westminster/ EU arrangement.
      I’m hoping that the Court Judgement and the party conferences will shake things up enough to be able to call the referendum… even if it’s after March 29th as long as it’s been called.
      I also think that there’s a wee window for us if they extended the exit date.
      As I understand it… an extension can’t go beyond the EU elections!
      That would give us a spring campaign and a vote before Brexit…
      So fingers crossed… I’m glad I don’t have to take the decision..

    173. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      I certainly don’t see “the SNP” as being “seen to be so uncertain in this manner” Sure Pete Wishart would prefer to delay until after 2021 and I’m sure there are some others, but to be honest I can’t name even one that I remember taking this view.

      As for Nicola Sturgeon she is far from being uncertain as has been consistently clear as to when the people of Scotland will have the opportunity to have their say on any Brexit outcome and that is when the terms of any Brexit deal are known.

      There is no ambiguity in her position and never has been, the real problem is that all the uncertainty is what surrounds Brexit itself. Not just what form it might take but even if there will be one.

      Right after the vote in Holyrood that gave the Scottish Government a mandate to request a section 30 order for another referendum Nicola Sturgeon made this statement.

      “It is now the will of Scotland’s democratically elected national parliament that discussions should begin with the UK Government to enable an independence referendum to be held. People should be given that choice once the details of the UK’s Brexit deal are clear – and the Prime Minister yesterday confirmed to me that she agrees this will be in 18 months to two years from now.

      “Today’s vote must now be respected. The mandate for a referendum is beyond question, and it would be democratically indefensible – and utterly unsustainable – to attempt to stand in the way of it.

      “We will now act on the mandate given to us by parliament by making a formal approach to the UK Government within the next few days, after Article 50 has been triggered.

      “This is, first and foremost, about giving the people of Scotland a choice on this country’s future.

      “We know that Brexit threatens a hugely damaging and uncertain future for Scotland, and it would not be right if the people of Scotland – having been told in 2014 that the only way to protect our place in Europe was to vote against independence – were denied a choice.

      “Every other nation in the EU will soon have a say on the terms of Brexit, and on how it impacts Scotland. The people of this nation cannot and must not be the only ones denied a say.

      “The Prime Minister says that now is not the time for a referendum. I agree with that, which is why I have indicated a timescale no earlier than 18 months from now, when the terms of Brexit are clear – something the PM has now indicated she agrees with. It is up to the UK Government to now make clear when they consider a referendum would be appropriate.

      “There is clear precedent for how the terms of a referendum made in Scotland can be agreed, and that precedent should be followed.

      “The people of Scotland are sovereign, and they will be given a choice on their own future.”

      No ambiguity there, no uncertainty and no back tracking. Rather than disagree among ourselves about this matter I’d personally prefer that we allow the FM to do exactly as she has promised to do and that is let the Scottish people make their choice and have their say.

      It will have to be clear what it is that they are choosing between of course.

    174. Archbishop of Dork says:

      Hahaha. No time allocated to Richard Leonard to make a speech at the Labour Conference. What would Keir Hardie/Hardy have thought of that?

    175. Luigi says:

      Wait until after Brexit? Mmmmmm.

      If it’s a difficult Brexit, with civil unrest, WM will move very quickly to neutralize Holyrood and prevent IndyRef 2 (using the chaos as an excuse).

      Note the rapid build-up of Scottish Office infrastructure during the past year. The BritNat establishment is up to something (and it smells). Could it be that Dark Money Ruth is being lined up to be a new, all-powerful minister for Scotland? Unelected, of course. 🙂

    176. Fred says:

      David Linden MP has been writing a Brexit column for almost a year & says that he could re-print the first of these & nobody would notice, such is the lack of progress!

    177. lumilumi says:

      @ paul mccormack (11.09am above)

      Wait… what?

      My views have not been tainted by the BBC or the Guardian but I still see Viktor Orban’s regime in Hungary as uncomfortably close to neo-fascist. Must be the tainted media in my country, eh, or maybe things like getting rid of the independent judiciary and the free press, and suppressing any dissenting voices… Jeez, maybe I’ve been mislead by UN and EU human rights reports and got it all wrong. From my wrong and biased media
      https://rsf.org/en/ranking

      Hungary’s history is rich and varied (I think St Marg of Scotland grew up there?), the stuff of legends, not unlike many other countries’. Fun fact: during the Cold War era, Hungarians used to big up their (language) relationship with “western” and “free” Finland – SNNT Estonia, not so much.

      Hungarian is not an Indo-European language, it belongs in the tree of Finno-Ugric languages. Most of those are extinct or dying languages in present-day Russia, several living Sami languages in the Arctic, but three alive and well and mainstream: Finnish, Estonian (almost mutually intelligible) and a distant cousin, Hungarian, unitelligible to Finns and Estonians, but having some deep morphology and syntax in common. We’re strangely proud of not being the standard Indo-Europeans language-wise. We’re unique. Scottish Gaelic is more closely related to Engilsh than our languages, so there! hahaha.

      I’m sure all your Hungarian friends are decent, lovely people. The two Hungarians I got to know in my late 20s were hilariously, darkly funny, very generous, open, proud of their heritage and sharing jokes about our very, very distant language relationship but how it was important to the Hungarians during the Cold War.

      None of this changes my view that Orban is a neo-fascist and Hungary is going down a dark path right now. My thoughts are with the decent folk who have to put up with the current madness. Että silleen.

    178. Archbishop of Dork says:

      If the people of Scotland are not sufficiently aware yet of what Brexit entails then that can be put right by Yes during an independence referendum campaign.

      We’ve got to make indy happen. Not wait for the stars to perfectly align.

    179. Macart says:

      @ Thepnr

      Pretty much what you said. 🙂

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks / @RJS
      The problem though is that when the date of the A50 invocation was known, Barnier set a timetable – the deal must be set 6 months before the 2 year anniversary, to give the EU-27 (and the UK) 6 months to ratify it through the parliaments. And the feeling was that the deal would be known before then (Sep 29), probably in August.

      But we still don’t even have a clue if Brexit will go ahead, whether there’ll be a 6 month extension to the Brexit date as rumoured in the media, whether there’ll be a transitional deal, or whether the UK will set sail in a beautiful pea green boat and sail off the edge of the moon with Boris gleefully playing Pink Floyd on his moothie, and the band playing waltzing matilda likes it’s going out of fashion.

      That’s why Sturgeon has to wait.

    181. Tinto Chiel says:

      Re the Copyright Directive, we often hear of laws having unintended consequences but a cynic might conclude that this proposed law, under the guise of protecting the rights of “creatives”, is a great way of controlling social media, which terrifies our MSM WM and the self-serving European elites generally.

      Anti social-media propaganda on Pravdasound4 is relentless: for example, listen to The Media Show on Wednesday afternoons to hear the BBC boast constantly of its balance, impartiality and corroborated fact-checking (in contrast with its claims about social media and sites like this) to feel as if you are fathoms deep down the rabbit-hole. I’m never sure whether the smug presenters and contributors are completely delusional or deeply cynical, frankly.

      Brian Powell: “day of action’ to take the temperature for Ind? We don’t need to take the temp we need to raise the temp.”

      As Meg Ryan would say, “Yes! Yes! Yes!”

      Luigi: “If after IndyRef 2, the fight goes on, then it goes on: Whatever and however long it takes. You don’t defeat the BritNat establishment with one punch – you have to out-manoeuvre them and grind them down until they are knackered and throw the towel in. That’s the way with the imperialists – always has been.”

      Not my favoured outcome, since I am well into my 60s, but I like that attitude.

      Golfnut: “As far as a Section 30 order goes this time round. Holyrood should publish our terms, highlighting all of the above and demanding Westminster adherence to the principals of self determination under UN articles. Westminster will of course refuse. Round 1 Internationally to Scotland.”

      That’s a clever proposal. I hope the legal experts in the SG think as you do.

    182. Thepnr says:

      I think everyone should know EXACTLY what the mandate is that the Scottish Government have in order that a second referendum be held actually states. In that way they will then understand that for that mandate to be relevant and legal then there must be “clarity over the outcome of the Brexit negotiations”.

      No clarity then no mandate and another would have to be sought.

      Motion S5M-04710: Nicola Sturgeon, Glasgow Southside, Scottish National Party, Date Lodged: 20/03/2017
      Scotland’s Choice

      That the Parliament acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs and therefore mandates the Scottish Government to take forward discussions with the UK Government on the details of an order under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can legislate for a referendum to be held that will give the people of Scotland a choice over the future direction and governance of their country at a time, and with a question and franchise, determined by the Scottish Parliament, which would most appropriately be between the autumn of 2018, when there is clarity over the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, and around the point at which the UK leaves the EU in spring 2019.

      Supported by: Michael Russell, John Swinney, Fiona Hyslop

    183. paul mccormack says:

      @lumilumi
      3:06 pm

      Don’t disagree with a word you’ve said, or Valerie’s points either for that matter.

      Clearly I was at pains to try and make the general point that there is a difference between a regime and a country, which does tend to get conflated. Mibbes i did take it to heart.

      As the saying goes –

      Farkast emlegetnek, a kert alatt kullog/jar.

      When a wolf is mentioned, he is already walking round the garden.

      I’m definitely shutting up now.

    184. Sarah says:

      @Thepnr 3.27:
      Must we stick by the wording rather than the spirit of the mandate?

      I feel that the outcome of Brexit is already clear – business and trade decisions already made are already damaging our economy.

      The only uncertainty is in what exact form the formal arrangements will be.

      As I have said before, I don’t think our society can afford to give any more time for damage to be inflicted on us. With a campaign started now, and a vote before January, businesses may hold back from final decisions, and it catches Westminster etc unprepared.

    185. Mike says:

      Anything suppressive in or out of the EU the UK will not only adopt it they will Engineer it adding more suppressive or oppressive measures to it.
      In or out of the EU anybody who believes in free speech will forever have to be vigilant and aware of the never ending attempts to subvert it either knowingly or stupidly unknowingly.
      The perpetual media war with no end.

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      Thanks for that, I hadn’t even thought of the legislation itself. Yes, electorally the SNP might have other mandates, but the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament only has the one, the one you posted. And wording is vital.

    187. Thepnr says:

      @Sarah

      I think it’s best that we learn to accept that we are out of the EU now irrespective of whether another referendum is held in 3 months time or another years time.

      There might yet be a second EU ref and who can say? There might even be deal in which NI is allowed to remain in the SM and CU and Scotland could argue for the same deal, who can say?

      The main point though is that even if we had a vote in January and voted Yes then that itself would take time and we would be turfed out of the EU in any case along with the member state i.e. the UK.

      The absolutely most important thing is not when we vote, that’s guaranteed and we will be having a second referendum on Independence. The most important thing is that we WIN that vote. Our absolute best chance of winning in my view will be with a no deal, next best chance out of the SM and CU, then less of a chance with an EFTA deal down to staying in altogether and we are probably looking at 50/50 chances.

      The SNP have taken support for Independence this far and I have faith in Nicola Sturgeon to be the one that takes us that last bit further. It’s her choice and that’s the way it should be.

      I for one do not want a repeat of September 19th 2014 as that will be me done. I expect to wake up tasting success and I am prepared to wait a wee while yet as it is my view that securing victory is of much greater importance than being so near and yet so far for want of a little more patience.

    188. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr 3.27
      I’m still laughing at your posting, it’s total clarity, big letters CHAPEAU for that.

      Totally blows out of the water Wishart and GMcIK’s timing comments, as even the Unionists would be able to insist the SG implements SP legislation – in fact any of us could.

    189. bittie45 says:

      @ twathater 2:10 am

      Responding to the Wikipedia warning about the EU Copyright Directive in July, I contacted SNP, Labour, Conservative & UKIP: SNP as part of the Greens-European Free Alliance Group were voting against; Labour said that there was a lot of concern but didn’t say how they were voting; Conservatives didn’t answer their phone; and UKIP surprise, surprise, their number was not recognised!

    190. Tatu3 says:

      Ms Sturgeon doesn’t necessarily need to announce a date right now, but I do believe the SNP should talk about independence more. The Tories in Scotland already think they (the SNP) talk of nothing else, so nothing to lose there.
      People need rousing, they need something/someone to get behind. They need to know that all the chat (on here and other blogs) and the marches is getting us somewhere.
      I understand we don’t have the media behind us like Catalonia, but in Catalonia their pro independence political party(ies?) stand up in front of the people and risk everything to shout Independence!
      Ours don’t.

    191. orri says:

      There are many reasons the SNP won’t endorse a 2nd EU Referendum. Those advocating one know bloody well that’s the case.

      It will not in any way shape or form be allowed to cancel Brexit.

      It will never be clear what happens if any deal, no matter how bad, is rejected. However if the hard Brexiters get their way it’ll be their last ditch attempt at sinking any deal. It certainly won’t result in any extension on Brexit.

      If the deal is accepted then it will somehow be seen as an endorsment of it. If it passes because of Scottish votes then there’s grounds for an appeal to our sense of honour.

      My dilemma would be would be which accept/reject/abstain option to choose.

      Not only that but the same people are sick of referenda bullshit would be deployed if such a referendum goes ahead.

      So those advocating a meaningless vote on a deal that might result in no deal can take a hike.

      Not to mention that it’d eat up even more time as the clock ticks down on the current Holyrood session.

    192. Petra says:

      @ Liz g says at 2:46 pm …. ”…It is a risk to wait till after Brexit.. in that I agree with Robert J.”

      I wasn’t too sure what Robert meant Liz. After the Brexit deadline in March or after the deal is clarified pre-March? I don’t want to wait until after we’re out of the EU either and at their absolute mercy. I read recently, that an EU Constitutional expert had stated categorically that they (EU) could erase the word UK (in relation to treaties etc) and replace it with the word Scotland. That would suit me just fine.

      The only thing that can go wrong for us now, imo, is if there is no Brexit at all and I don’t see that come to pass. England would erupt, implode or explode, if that was to happen.

      So Nicola has to wait to see if it’s going to be a No deal, Canada plus, plus, minus or whatever. Or even yesindyref2’s suggestion of, ”or whether the UK will set sail in a beautiful pea green boat and sail off the edge of the moon with Boris gleefully playing Pink Floyd on his moothie, and the band playing waltzing Matilda likes it’s going out of fashion.” I wish they would and would imagine that the nutters think they could.

      She, Nicola, can’t stand up right now and start going through every potential Brexit case scenario. If so, no one would listen to her … too long and boring … potentially scaremongering etc, etc.

      She has to know which deal (or not) they all agree to and then make her case. Zoom into all aspects of the deal and highlight how it will impact on Scotland; and as we know EVERY potential deal is going to have a negative effect on Scotland, so she’ll have plenty of ammunition at her disposal. Westminster of course will try to bum up whatever deal they get … even a WTO, lol. Nicola’s job, along with expert support, will be to destroy their arguments and of course by that time the reality of Brexit for all Scots will have well and truly kicked in (kicking in already as per my shopping bill). Add to that Westminster parties are going to continue to be at loggerheads, maybe even split, and continue to show their true colours. Theresa May will be going at some point in time and no matter who takes over (I’d vote for Boris) the Scots won’t like it.

      I’m just as frustrated (and tired) as everyone else on here, but we have to play canny and I reckon that’s what Nicola has been doing. She’s supposed to be representing ALL sovereign Scots and that includes those who want to remain in the Union (50%?). If she had done a reverse Davidson act and gone on and on about independence all of the time that would have scuppered this completely. Instead she’s been seen to be doing her utmost, working her butt off, to keep us all in the EU, and additionally working her butt off preparing for Independence. She’s one of the most intelligent, astute, honest and hardworking politicians around, imo, worldwide in fact, so you can imagine that I take exception to terms like playing possum, gutless and timid drip being used to describe her.

      Time for some people on here to wake up and smell the coffee. Give her some support. Who else is going to do it for you? Get us our Independence?

    193. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thanks to all who responded directly or indirectly to what I posted. I was of course careful to dissassociate Nicola from these voices urging inordinate delay, but Keith Brown’s quote upthread to which Breeks reacted so strongly is getting perilously close (in both senses).

      Yes, there are various potential perturbations still possible, and so (to use that drear expression) “now is not the time” quite yet. That’s clearly understood. We do necessarily have to wait it out a little longer to properly see what way the wind is blowing.

      But it’s quite another to openly urge, as GMK eg. now clearly does, that we should deliberately allow the formal Brexit transition to happen (whether on schedule or with some agreed postponement) in the evident fond hope that this passage alone will bring us the fabled 60%. It won’t.

      Liz g correctly anticipated me, we’ll need a full-on campaign to achieve that. And the likely upcoming Brexitfudge will ensure that nothing much will change all of a sudden, so the real facts won’t emerge for years, possibly even decades. But we already know that they will all be bad, whatever, as someone correctly pointed out already. Meanwhile we’ll have casually thrown away all the momentum of the worst UK crisis for a half-century and some 200k EU27 voters who are virtually all inclined to vote “yes” now.

      Since we have Nicola’s assurances and it remains SNP policy to have IR2 in a timely manner that keeps all options open, why are there any voices at all from anyone in the party (or indeed otherwise) still urging a full post-Brexit delay, or even apparently hinting at such? In the current circumstances it’s deeply unsettling. That’s my point.

    194. Ian Foulds says:

      Hamish at 12.19

      Maybe we need to really emphasise and resist the reference to being a Region and remind those that use it we are of course a Country and an Equal partner in this ‘Union’

    195. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      At the same time though, an eyebrow raiser I didn’t comment on (didn’t know what to say except good stuff!) from Keith Brown:

      SNP campaigners are to target 50,000 Scots as part of a national day of action on independence, the party’s depute leader has announced.
      10 comments

      Keith Brown said he wanted conversations to take place “in every corner” of Scotland about the “positive future” of independence.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16858349.snp-to-target-50000-scots-in-national-day-of-action-on-independence/

      The action day will take place on Saturday September 29, with much of the focus on how independence could offer Scotland an alternative to the “threat of Brexit”.

      29th Sep = good timing.

    196. John Boyes says:

      I see that Vince Cable is now suggesting another hurdle should we have the audacity to hold a new independence referendum.
      Can’t remember much clamour from the Libdems for a second “confirmatory” ref in 2014.
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45513073

    197. Derick fae Yell says:

      Pretty much agree with every word of Gordon McIntyre Kemp’s article in the National today.

      It’s unlikely that the terms of Brexit will be known before April 2019. If the First Minister goes for it and a S30 is agreed between Holyrood and Westminster, we’ll have a referendum as quickly as possible, which is either May or September 2020.

      If it’s not agreed, we will need to (and will) win an election to strengthen the mandate. If there’s a snap election we should use that.

      I want a referendum in the fastest practical timescale. Before March 19 is simply not possible.

      Keep coming back to the last Wings poll. 30% of Yessers don’t want to be in the EU. We must address that, preferably by not just telling those half million Yes voters they are stupid and wrong

    198. Hamish100 says:

      With Cable suggesting that may indicate that the pro independence vote is holding up pretty well.

    199. yesindyref2 says:

      @Derick fae Yell

      Before March 19 is simply not possible

      Technically it is. Working backwards from March 14th, 3 months for the campaign during which time the polling stations and all that are organised (start Dec 14th), 2 weeks for the S30 to be rushed through both houses and royal assent before Christmas (why – see [1]) start 30 Nov, same time final Holyrood legislation goes through.

      One week for the quick Edinburgh agreement start 23rd Nov, by some miracle the deal is made as Barnier says it could be, by November, there you go, plenty of time, and 2 weeks left before actual Brexit day (29th March) to get the EU to react and transition Scotland as aprt of the UK’s transition.

      [1] Why would Westiminster rush through the S30? Because if they don’t the SG go ahead anyway, and at the same time submit a court challenge to Brexit on 29th March, on the basis that the UK is not acting in accord with its own constitution as specified in Article 50, as Scotland might not be a part of it.

    200. Shinty says:

      Serious question – are the 30%? Yessers (who don’t want EU) are they really going to go into the polling booth with all the positive energy around them and vote against their heart held belief of independence for Scotland.
      (Not to mention being stuck with a Westminster Government which has shown it doesn’t know it’s arse from its elbow).

      Independence must come before any nitpicking.

    201. Breeks says:


      yesindyref2 says:
      13 September, 2018 at 3:12 pm

      @Breeks / @RJS
      The problem though is that ….. whether the UK will set sail in a beautiful pea green boat and sail off the edge of the moon with Boris gleefully playing Pink Floyd on his moothie, and the band playing waltzing matilda likes it’s going out of fashion.

      That’s why Sturgeon has to wait…

      WAIT FOR WHAT???

      Brexit was DECIDED on the merest fraction of accurate information, when the vast majority of people on BOTH sides of the argument hadn’t a damn clue what they were voting on. The fools knew nothing, and they’ve fecked us all!!! Why must wait interminably for the fullest foresic details of catastrope before we sidestep and avoid said catastrophe? We surely do not need to endure the pain of being shot to know that a bullet will hurt.

      Tell me why Scotland is paralyised to defend itself against the inane madness of Brexit, despite having a democratic, sovereign mandate and a triple lock mandate to fight Brexit and STAY IN EUROPE already secured?

      The Westminster Government knows “enough” about Brexit to proceed with it. Barnier knows “enough” about Brexit to present a settlement “deal” to all remaining EU Nations. Ireland has a crystal clear constitutional conundrum and power to veto a UK deal if unhappy with it in any respect. But Scotland? Nah, we don’t really know what’s happening dude….

      Why isn’t there a smoking dossier on Barnier’s desk about Scotland’s Constitutional Minefield? Why isn’t Scotland’s Sovereignty and Westminster’s cack-handed attempt to re-write the Union and subjugate Scottish sovereignty right up their on the EU Agenda beside Ireland’s Good Friday Agreement?

      I’m telling you, unless Scotland grows a pair and actually gets to its feet to defend our Sovereign choice to stay in the EU, the EU will pursue the path of expediency, and choose to see Scotland’s anaemic indifference to it’s own subjugation as an issue of domestic policy for the UK and it will not feature ANYWHERE in their Brexit criteria.

      I fervently believe that Barnier and the other EU Nations will heave a huge collective sigh of relief when Brexit is a done deal and the UK is OUT, and there will be absolutely NO appetite to revisit the terms of Brexit because Scotland’s wait-and-see Government has finally woken up and finally wants to tinker with the small print.

      Everybody here takes great delight slagging off Jeremy Corbyn for his dismal ineptiude and abject failure to dent the Tories grip on power in the midst of the Brexit clusterf__k, but I challenge you to show me where the SNP has secured any greater material purchase and control over events than Corbyn has.

      The Tories are strutting around Scotland like they own the place, the double standards of the rancid media is cutting down one Pro-Indy beast after another, time is running out for Scotland to save its economy from Brexit and Sovereign Constitution from subjugation, and our “Rebels in Power”, our Wolves in sheeps’ clothing, our Pro-Independence SNP Government is sitting on its thumbs while hoping a democratic majority that it doesn’t actually need is going to appear by magic without ANY steering, leadership, or pro-active campaigning.

      I truly wonder, has our SNP government actually been nobbled?

    202. Confused says:

      A while back I was going to suggest that WINGS have a backup website on the DARK WEB.

      I held back as I reckoned people would see this as over-the-top and highly counterproductive (bad visuals), i.e.

      WINGS being HOSTED along with all the world’s internet paedos, drug dealars, terrorists and actual-NAZIS – and then the rest of us have to arse-about with the TOR browser and all that.

      Donations would have to be in … crypto-currency (- but no TITCOINS, eh?)

      Kinda edgy tho – it’s got the bad boy chic. Next step – tribal tats, a goatee and a Harley.

      PW – what is it with drummers, he’s got form hasn’t he? BTW – describing a drummer as a “musician” is stretching it a bit, no?

      Wings is ultimately vulnerable to a take-down, and if this happens it will be when we REALLY need it. I don’t want them to have the option.

    203. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Shinty @ 19:53,

      Well said, there.

      With a proper campaign on the go, the only ones who likely won’t return to the fold are those who have been “captured” by the anti-immigrant rhetoric of the EU campaign. And given that Nicola has already made her take on that issue very plain indeed, no ifs or buts, those dedicated anti-foreigners are not coming back, whatever ploy we might attempt to appease.

      Conversely, there are a considerable number of former-no’s out there who might well be on the cusp of moving to yes as Brexit looms closer and the personal threat becomes more tangible.

      Provided, that is, indy has a counteroffer for them that attracts.

    204. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks: “WAIT FOR WHAT???

      I JUST TOLD YOU!

      In the bit you cut out: “But we still don’t even have a clue if Brexit will go ahead, whether there’ll be a 6 month extension to the Brexit date as rumoured in the media, whether there’ll be a transitional deal, or …”

    205. Petra says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland says at 5:24 pm … ”..but Keith Brown’s quote up thread to which Breeks reacted so strongly is getting perilously close (in both senses) ..”

      Keith Brown quote: ….’However, Mr Brown also suggested that plans for a re-run of 2014’s vote may have to be pushed back if the timetable for the Brexit negotiations slips. “It’s not fair to confront people with another constitutional question when the constitutional question of Brexit is as yet unresolved,” he said.”

      I posted comments from a Keith Brown article on here last week, Robert (can’t find it now) and what he was basically saying was that an Indy announcement that was planned for the SNP October Conference would probably have to be delayed now due to the Brexit hold-up fiasco.

      The key term here, imo, is ”pushed back”. For a month, two months. Whatever? Maybe if his prior comment had been quoted in the following article it would have made a difference.

      http://archive.is/A9qqg

    206. Sarah says:

      @Thepnr at 4.17.

      Thank you for your thoughtful [and patient!] response to my comment.

      Perhaps it is a matter of temperament that leads us to different views on the timing of the next referendum. I am terribly worried at the thought of what the Westminster government and allies of various sinister and powerful kinds will do to harm Scotland, so I want to shorten the time they have available.

      I am not criticising Nicola – I admire her hugely. She may well be preparing all the constitutional cases for the UN and ECHR that I [and Breeks] could wish!

    207. Petra says:

      @ John Boyes says at 7:01 pm …. ”I see that Vince Cable is now suggesting another hurdle should we have the audacity to hold a new independence referendum. Can’t remember much clamour from the Libdems for a second “confirmatory” ref in 2014.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45513073

      Thanks for the link John.

      He, Cable, said: “I think it’s very clear that people in Scotland, as in other parts of the United Kingdom, don’t want Brexit to happen. They want to stop it and it can be stopped, and the best mechanism for stopping it is to have a people’s vote. I think momentum is building up behind that and I’m trying to work with people in other parties (such as the SNP) to make sure it happens.”

      This Westminster crew’s attitude just beggars belief!!!! We had a bl**dy peoples vote and 62% of us, Scots, voted to stay in the EU. And on the one hand he wants the SNP MP’s to support him, but would then stab them, US, in the back.

      Get me out of here, ASAP.

    208. Petra says:

      @ Breeks at 8:20pm …..”The Westminster Government knows “enough” about Brexit to proceed with it. Barnier knows “enough” about Brexit to present a settlement “deal” to all remaining EU Nations. Ireland has a crystal clear constitutional conundrum and power to veto a UK deal if unhappy with it in any respect. But Scotland? Nah, we don’t really know what’s happening dude…… I truly wonder, has our SNP government actually been nobbled?”

      After reading your latest post Breeks, I’m beginning to wonder if you’ve been ”nobbled.”

    209. Colin Alexander says:

      That’s brave of you Stu, criticising an SNP politician on here.

      Then you go ahead and dare criticise the EU too. Wow.

      Will you be called a troll now by the SNP cheerleaders that think supporting independence for Scotland means you must have uncritical support for all that the SNP does or fails to do?

      Don’t you know that they believe you must believe the sun shines out the arses of SNP politicians at all times or that makes you a Unionist?

      Don’t you know that you must believe the SNP can do no wrong and that the EU is just absolutely wonderful because Nicola Sturgeon sooks up to the EU bureaucrats?

      Sophist Nicola’s Party, or SNP for short, has over the last couple of years put more effort into keeping the UK in the EU than they have in getting Scotland out of the Union.

      Nicola Sturgeon and her devotees love the EU, so you must too.

      Vote Yes to independence if you ever get the chance.

      Don’t vote for anymore future promises of indyref referendums from politicians who would rather administer UK Union devolution for the UK state than lead Scotland to independence.

    210. Hamish100 says:

      Almost thought it was rock talking his usual tripe. No, just the man called CA.

      Troll for short

    211. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 21:11,

      Yes, that’s fair enough. I had to read KB’s statement carefully twice to reach the same understanding as you.

      Which is fine. It makes perfect sense, and for obvious reasons.

      It was just his sloppy phrasing that got to me (and I suspect Breeks too). It seemed to be implying that we oughtn’t to have two crises of any kind at once. Whereas he actually meant, presumably (as many including myself agree), that we have to patiently “hold our horses” on our one until we have some notion of when and what kind of Brexit we were going to be foisted with, before we can effectively act.

      In point of fact it’s the UKGov that couldn’t handle two crises at once, if we pile our own in a timely way on top of their self-made bourach! =laugh=

      Which is exactly when to strike, of course. Not after they’ve somehow managed to navigate the first, after which they can happily turn their undivided attention to suppressing us again.

    212. Gary says:

      The ‘Law of Unintended Consequences’ strikes again!

      whatever the intention, this WILL be abused…

    213. crazycat says:

      @ Confused at 8.25, Thursday

      PW – what is it with drummers, he’s got form hasn’t he? BTW – describing a drummer as a “musician” is stretching it a bit, no?

      Pete Wishart is a keyboard player.

    214. crazycat says:

      @ Me, above

      I thought I’d put the quotation from Confused in blockquotes. (It may have been clear enough, but just in case, I’m correcting it.)

      My post should have looked like this:

      @ Confused at 8.25, Thursday

      PW – what is it with drummers, he’s got form hasn’t he? BTW – describing a drummer as a “musician” is stretching it a bit, no?

      Pete Wishart is a keyboard player.

    215. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I know, it’s an old one but…

      What do you call someone who hangs out around musicians?

      A drummer.

      (Specially reprised for Ronnie Jack.)

    216. Confused says:

      Aargh !

      – Ignorance corrected, crazycat (nice handle BTW)

      How embarrassing – wings postings are becoming as error-ridden as the MSM. I dun a stupid.

      SO,
      – Dougie Vipond? – is he in the SNP as well?
      – will Nikki ever get a gig on the Adventure Show, dya think?



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