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Dunbar: A Lesson From History

Posted on September 13, 2018 by

As certain elements of the Yes movement do their best (yet again) to foment some sort of civil war over a popular 1990s movie for no better reason than to draw a little bit of attention to themselves in the face of rapidly-plummetting readership and influence, we found ourselves instead pondering a different Scottish historical battle today.

We’ll leave it at that.

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    1. 13 09 18 16:56

      Dunbar: A Lesson From History | speymouth

    164 to “Dunbar: A Lesson From History”

    1. bobajock says:

      Lessons from history – number 8004 … dont be stupid.

    2. Taranaich says:

      Further proof, if it was ever needed, that Calvinism ruined Scotland.

    3. starlaw says:

      A lesson from History, we fight as one or we go under. The only diplomatic way to independence is through the SNP even if we don’t approve what they are doing. A United front must be presented at all times, without any glimmer of doubt.
      There will be plenty of time for doubts in the years to come time to settle differences at our leisure.

    4. Dan Huil says:

      Thank god England’s in a right mess at the moment.

    5. Jock McDonnell says:

      A beautiful, if somewhat terrible reminder, Rev.

    6. Macart says:

      ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to…’ etc. That Santayana fella nailed that one I’d say.

    7. jfngw says:

      Is it the Byres Road Group?

      BBC Scotland going big on Dumfriesshire School, the point is to hammer in the point that the problem under the SNP is more or less the same as the PFI schools under Labour.

      So a leaky roof, a sliding door fault and a whiteboard that seems to have come off the wall (although the exact details of why are vague) is exactly the same as an entire exterior wall collapsing.

      They have their instructions, they are carrying them out.

    8. orri says:

      Must confess I hadn’t realised how close it came.

      Just that Scotland exercised it’s right to choose it’s monarch. The English refused to accept it. Settled it by arms, or delayed making the exact same choice until Cromwell was out of the picture showing we’d got it right in the first place.

      That and Darlings snidey wee reference to it in his debate with Salmond. The whole think that you might be wrong shit. Which if you think about it was more of a threat than anything.

    9. Tinto Chiel says:

      And those divisive, demented divines did it all over again at Bothwell Bridge.

      As Kenneth Horne used to say, “A lesson for us all there, I think.”

    10. Dan Huil says:

      After disasters like Dunbar it’s amazing Scotland survived. But it did. We must keep fighting. The time is fast approaching for serious action. No more mistakes like Dunbar.

    11. Clootie says:

      A sad but true insight to Scotland.

      It is true that the English State have always helped to forment the arguments and grievances for advantage. However it is Scots who often dig their own grave or put on their own shackles. The greed of the rich. The religious bigotry, the demand for a particular line of thought or plan. Who shall run the campaign. The Church to keep it’s position and land. The list is almost endless.

      One day Scots will unite over Independence. Sadly the current remains of Labour/LibDem are still loyal to London. The Tories are a lost cause when it comes to conversion. The Greens still want to win the next war (what kind of Scotland) instead of winning the first (the right to decide). Bella , SSP etc are focused on attacking the SNP.

      The one group who have done the most to ignore the old baggage is AUOB. The message is quite clear, simple and shared – We all want Independence. Why can people not carry that thought in the period between the marches? Does it really matter what film or music is playing or who the speakers are?

      Unless we gain Independence FIRST everything else is just noise.

      My own belief is that the best message is by uniting under one party but let us at least agree on Independence first.

      One flag, one aim….AUOB – the rest is for another day.

    12. Bill Glen says:

      I Think i will leave the Popcorn at home,,And just Draw my Own Wee Passport

    13. Wullie says:

      Aye, the church religious types. How are they standing up for Scotland today, no doubt selling us down the swanny. OK for them they kept their independence at the time of union as usual the people, you know their flock were throw to the wolves.

    14. galamcennalath says:

      Hard times and Calvinist Ministers appear to have been at the heart of much misery.

      The same David Leslie was also in command at the Battle of Dunaverty which degenerated into the Massacre of Dunaverty.

      John Nevoy of Loudoun Kirk, Galston was the chaplain to Leslie’s Covenanter army. Nevoy was instrumental in encouraging the genocide.

      The moral must be …. always beware the idealogical zealots in our own ranks!

    15. orri says:

      I wonder if any of those in charge of the Scottish Army were in the pay of the English. Might be worth checking how they fared afterwards. Not that being executed after you’ve served your purpose isn’t a common method of stopping you blabbing. Ask Ernst Röhm and his pals about how far you can trust people.

    16. ScottishPsyche says:

      There are always those who want to appear superior and are riddled with entitlement and resentment. Bella and Co have been faffing around for years in the Leith equivalent of Pseud’s Corner, writing a lot about very little that resonates beyond their own self-absorbed group.

      It is a shame because if Small got over himself or was just honest about what he wants, which appears to be some sort of Government advisory role, he might be a lot happier. Bella was the first Indy online publication I found and the first one I ditched as I could not bear the preaching overtones.

      This latest attack on people who dare to want Indy in a way that upsets his cringing sensibilities demonstrates Leask-like levels of obsession with policing the tone of others.

    17. Meg merrilees says:

      Independence first and then talk about the details. Choose the battle ground and wait for the right moment.


      Isn’t Dumfriesshire Fluffy’s constituency – of course if they put pressure on him he’ll just blame the Baad SNPeee.

      Heard Ian Murray being interviewed on BBC TV at lunch time – he was described as one of the Politicians leading calls for a second referendum.

      During the course of his interview he stated the following sentiment…

      Well, I think people are entitled to a second referendum if they’ve changed their minds. No-one voted for these circumstances…

      SO, in other words, if the Vow has not been delivered, no-one voted for these circumstances and if people have changed their mind, they should be allowed another referendum… nice one Ian.

      All it needs now is for someone to catch the clip from the TV.

      I heard it on the BBC News channel about 2.15pm – might be repeated later but could be edited out???

    18. Luigi says:

      WoS certainly ain’t for faint hearts or the politically correct.

      I guess quite a few wingers are a bit rough round the edges for the respectable, do-gooder faction of the indy movement.

      But clerks and minister’s sons alone ain’t gonna win this war. Not in a month of Sundays. We are battle-hardened. We are Spartacus. When the going gets tough….:)

    19. Itchybiscuit says:

      Honestly, the ‘Indy Puritans’ make me cowk.

    20. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, that would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

    21. galamcennalath says:

      ScottishPsyche says:

      writing a lot about very little that resonates beyond their own self-absorbed group

      Yes. Their influence with the Indy movement is now marginal. However, they boost their diminutive status and inflated egos by gaining attention from MSM as they provide evidence for the BritNats to cry “splits”.

      Perhaps another brutal lesson from history might be the Second Spanish Republic 1931-39. It lost the Civil War to Franco’s facist rebels by, as much as anything, factional in fighting!

      There is one goal – Independence. Once that has been achieved we can have all the democratic debate we want about this, that, and the other.

    22. Flower of Scotland says:

      Yip, getting rather annoyed with Mike Small, Bella, Commonspace and R McAlpine

      The Growth commission is not good especially about currency says McAlpine. The trouble is that the SNP published the GC before McAlpine had a chance to get his paper about a new currency into circulation. He,s not happy! He doesn’t want Indy until a currency has been set up.

      The sovereign people of Scotland, after Independence, will decide on a new currency.

      I’m fed up with their sniping about everything, whether it’s currency or showing clips of a movie at a rally. Funny how they’ve been quiet for a while but come out the woodwork when Indy Ref seems close. They are too much “up” themselves!

      There,s discussion and then there,s sniping!

      We have ONE goal and that is Independence.

    23. Luigi says:

      Bear in mind that there will be quite a few BritNat (MI5) operatives and sleepers embedded in all the significant Indy groups (SNP included). They will undoubtably be tasked with sowing seeds of doubt, confusion and division whenever they can.

      There are also a few that pop up regularly on the WoS threads (they are fairly easy to smoke out). 🙂

    24. Bill Hume says:

      One Nation, One Goal. Yes, I like that.
      I like it particularly because with the Labour and Tory parties in complete meltdown and the absolute clusterf*ck of brexit, we have an almost open goal to aim for.
      One Nation, One Goal.
      Works for me.

    25. Normski says:

      They sound exactly like the sort of idiots who are demanding the #IndyRef2 campaign be held over Xmas and the New Year and voted on before #Brexit.

    26. yesindyref2 says:

      Braveheart was a great movie, a few historical inaccuracies, but that’s Holywood for you. It came out a couple of years before the DevoRef – the SUCCESSFUL one. Did it have an effect? Perhaps, I think it helped make Scots confident in ourselves.

      At that time I was a prolific poster in a UseNet forum which, like most, was totally dominated by the Yanks, and inevitably when anything about Scotalnd came up I was involved. It got me the nickname “Braveheart”, but I daresay that happened to the other few Scots posters in the alt.* or even comp.* hierarchies in those days.

      The Yanks were really split into two groups, those who thought Scotland was part of England under the English Queen, and those who thought Scotland was already Independent. Neither group understood the Devo Ref at all not surprisingly, and I was (cough) involved heavily in off-topic threads or sub-threads putting the facts.

      The Unionists managed to get rid of Braveheart during Indy Ref 1 by their customary sneers about the “Bravehearts” – that’s us Indy supporters. Well, it’s time to take back the Movie for Scotland because it did a lot of good, not least for tourism figures which went through the roof at the time.

      So yeah, if Hope Over Fear want to big screen Braveheart, good for them.

    27. Hamish100 says:

      Independence or forever brexit

    28. Liz g says:

      Aye well…
      Nae purists of any stripe are keeping me away from this campaign for Scotland to be free of this bloody Union…
      They don’t have to like me or approve of me but they do have to make space for me…
      And I’ll be attending where I can, any,event anyone is able to organise!

    29. Luigi says:

      RE: Braveheart Public Showing in Glasgow at the weekend:

      Good chance to get those saltires fluttering in the wind again.

      You know how much they hate that. 🙂

    30. Divide and conquer,that is how they work,do not fall for it!I was confronted with a question about Alec Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon, and the rift it might cause, I suggested the independence was the most important issue. I had another situation the person suggested we need more devolvement, this at a time when the Westminster government is trying to dissolve devolving our government and Mundell trying to run a new Scottish office with 3000 civil servants up from London some involved in taxation. Direct rule??How well does this treacherous scumbag know these women in the U.K. cviil service.Why are they taking so much time to get things sorted.

    31. Arbroath1320 says:

      Why is it that every time we those who shout the loudest about this or that we always end up finding out that they in fact are LEAST well educated about the topic they shout about!

      Meg merrilees says:
      13 September, 2018 at 4:19 pm
      Independence first and then talk about the details. Choose the battle ground and wait for the right moment.


      Isn’t Dumfriesshire Fluffy’s constituency – of course if they put pressure on him he’ll just blame the Baad SNPeee.

      Dumfries is a funny old town … no seriously. Believe it or not it is divided between Scruffy Fluffy’s constituency and that of the other useless Tory Alistair Jack.

    32. cirsium says:

      @Flower of Scotland, 4.36pm

      He doesn’t want Indy until a currency has been set up.

      Is his argument not that we should plan for a new currency from day one of independence? There will be a transition period until we get all the systems set up. The Common Weal book how to start a new country: a practical guide for Scotland is a very interesting read.

      We have got to keep ideas flowing while maintaining our focus on achieving independence. This is a difficult balancing act.

      Thanks for the salutary reminder, Rev

    33. Arbroath1320 says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      13 September, 2018 at 5:02 pm
      Braveheart was a great movie, a few historical inaccuracies, but that’s Holywood for you. It came out a couple of years before the DevoRef – the SUCCESSFUL one. Did it have an effect? Perhaps, I think it helped make Scots confident in ourselves.

      Lest we forget, in the run up to the 2014 independence referendum Porky demanded, and got, Outlander banned from terrestrial T.V. Could Outlander have had a similar affect to the vote as Braveheart did to the DevoRef I think it might have done. 😉

    34. Craig P says:

      The story of the Covenanting ministers purging the Scottish army of the unworthy in 1650 is amazing. General Leslie basically lost his authority to people who had no idea how to fight a battle, and Cromwell wasn’t slow to take advantage when the Scots made a wrong move.

      And there was more. The most enthusiastic Presbyterians in those days truly believed they were God’s chosen people. They had previously persuaded the English parliament to promise, in a moment of weakness, to run England on Scottish religious lines which as you can imagine, didn’t quite work out… shades perhaps of today’s Scottish Labour party members, believing despite all the evidence that somehow if we stick with England they will eventually come round to socialist ideals.

      (They won’t.)

    35. Valerie says:

      Yup. Got pretty sick of Twitter over last few days. Sniping, inverted snobbery, ridicule.

      As I tweeted, meanwhile the Catalans are thronging the streets to a standstill.

      What we need really is, whoever the latest self appointed Oracle of Indy is, to write up up a giant book of rules covering,

      movies (obviously)
      bloggers to support

      That should cover most for the cappuccino set.

    36. ronnie anderson says:

      Nice to see the scales are finally dropping from the eyes of the Independence movement , but be warned Wingers the Leftists come in many guises .

    37. Iain mhor says:

      Aye, sounds familiar.
      Anyone who knows of Flodden and stood on its fields, will have understood the rank idiocy of running down that hill into the firing line of English archers and guns, to then plouter about in a muddy sheugh and scramble remaining forces back uphill into the archers and guns…again.

      Controversial view: The Scottish gene pool was well rid of the imbeciles.

    38. yesindyref2 says:

      I haven’t seen Outlander, but from the descriptions – yes.

      Indy ref 1 face to face I listened to NOes rather than trying to convert them (the odd comment of course), and half or more of them liked the idea of Independence, but not the reality of it as they saw it through the eyes of the FUD media – even though most of them thought Project Fear was outrageous, and well over the top.

      So their hearts were mostly there but their minds not. Anything that strengthened their heart’s preference for Indy might have made them look more into the whole Indy thing.

    39. Capella says:

      Outlaw King will be out soon. Another fine example of strategic thinking outwitting a superior force. The Unionists will be apoplectic. Looking forward to that.

    40. Arbroath1320 says:

      Series 2 has just finished on More 4 YIR2. Quite conveniently, considering what we are talking about today it finished on the aftermath of Culloden.

      I think that was one of the reasons Porky demanded Outlander was effectively banned from terrestrial T.V. even he in is Union Jack outlook could see the damage it would do the his “cause” even though he was not deeply involved. Porky managed to convince the incredibly blind and almost sycophantic Labour party to do all of his bidding for him.

    41. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Flower of Scotland
      The growth commission have been very canny with the potential currency policy.

    42. HandandShrimp says:

      An early example of Gove telling people that no one wants to hear from experts.

    43. Douglas says:

      Mmm… Sons and daughters of the Kirk, with all their good intentions, should be obliged to stay at home!!! Recent examples, the Aleander twins, Wendy & Douglas and of course Gordon Brown come to mind!!!

    44. Thepnr says:

      It seems like it wasn’t the fact that the Calvanist Ministers objected to those that didn’t meet their standards and sent 5000 of them home that eventually lost the battle.

      No the Scots that were left took up a commanding position and could have starved them out, sat on the top of the hill until they surrendered.

      “The Scots only had to wait for their weak enemy to surrender.

      Patience was not among the fervent ministers virtues. Ignoring Leslie and knowing nothing of military tactics, they sent his twenty thousand men down the hill.

      Three thousand were killed and ten thousand captured. Edinburgh Castle belonged to Cromwell by December.”

      Instead it was the impatience of the Calvinists to engage once more when they didn’t need to, that ultimately cost them the loss at Dunbar and of Edinburgh Castle.

    45. Merkin Scot says:

      ‘…On observing the Scots manouevring into their new positions, he is said to have exclaimed, perhaps referring to Joshua 10:8, “The Lord hath delivered them into our hands!”…’.
      My thoughts exactly when I saw that Westminster had persuaded some Scots that the Ulsterisation of the Independence debate via Mel Gibson was a good thing.

    46. Arthur thomson says:

      Nobody and nothing can divide those who actually support independence. No amount of talk by the chattering classes will stop more thinking people from deciding that now is the time. Nobody with more than 2 brain cells will be turned off Indy because of a fucking film.

      The ideological left do not support independence – they are ideologically committed to dependency, the whole basis of their desired power.

      Anyone who is civilised – and remember that people who swear a lot were found to be more honest ie more civilised – has a place in the Indy movement. Nobody owns it and like cats we won’t be fucking herded.

    47. Tattie-Bogle says:

      What about the Great Sibling battle of ‘Maw he’s looking at me’

    48. scottieDog says:

      My take away from brave heart is betrayal.

    49. hopper69 says:

      Scottie dog.As always-divided we fall.Indy first,debate our differences later.

    50. Dan Huil says:

      @scottieDog 6:26pm

      You’re right. One of the most depressing films I’ve ever watched because of the betrayal.I did like, however, the scene when the Irish warriors decided to join the Scots in battle.

      Maybe the people of all Ireland can help us out again?

    51. Liz g says:

      A question about Braveheart being shown in the Square!
      Is there a PG version…
      Now that I’m thinking about it the movie I saw wasn’t really ment for good family fun?
      I mean even reruns of the Waltons get a “May be unsuitable for young children” warning now!

    52. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScottieDog / @Dan Huil
      Apart from being historically inaccurate, “Braveheart” is supposed to refer to Bruce who in the film, bides hit time, appears at the end and wins.

      Maybe slight comparisons to Salmond and Sturgeon 🙂

    53. Macart says:

      The intellectual left. The thinking bod’s independista. The purist’s purist.

      Whatever you call them? They really need to take something onboard and deal with it.

      Independence is for EVERYONE. It’s not their preserve. It’s not their philosophical or literal plaything. It’s an inalienable right for ALL of us. The whole population. And yes, that means many different paths and views. It means many different people from every walk of life. They don’t get to define who you are or what you should think or feel. They don’t own the rights to care for fellow human beings or have a written handbook on doing what’s right.

      So far as I’m concerned? The criteria for YES supporter is quite simple. Just folk who care. Folk who want to pass on the gift of freedom to choose to future generations. That’s pretty much it. All parties and no parties. You either accept that the principle applies to all of the population or you don’t believe in it at all. Same deal for those who seek to govern. You either govern for all, or you’re fit to govern none.

      No. We won’t all get along. We’re not all going to agree on the path to one destination. That’s being human for you (shrugs). So long as we’re all pulling in the same direction though? There isn’t a damn thing out there can stop us.

    54. Confused says:

      A fine analogy. Rev, on point, as usual.

      But I always saw the “bizarre” actions at Dunbar as being strongly suggestive of


      – these extremist nutcases, this protestant-taliban (a new chosen people FFS – one chosen people is enough) had been used/meddled in the English Civil War and now, dust settled it was time to wind up their madness. Their leaders got bought off and that was that.

      Maybe the analogy is an even better one than I first thought.

      The Bellatwant Tendency calling for Civil War is a fucking joke – do they really think they would win?

      Mr Muscle just called you out for a “throw down” … sphincters twitching yet?

      All these fuckers want is a job at the Guardian.

    55. Hamish100 says:

      I know plenty of ministers who are pro Church of Scotland and pro independence. Many are overlooked by the Edinburgh mafia at George st i.e. Public schoolboy middle classes. Red white and blue brigade

    56. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2 at 5:39 pm.

      You typed,
      “I haven’t seen Outlander, but from the descriptions – yes.”

      I will leave a message for you “off-topic” in a couple of minutes.

    57. Valerie says:

      @Liz g

      The showing of Braveheart starts at 10am, and is an abridged version of 50 mins. They may well have thought ahead and removed bits that are gory as it’s only 50 mins.

      Sheridan himself likes these events as “family”, and he tweeted it as “light entertainment before the thing gets under way properly”.

      50 mins is what has caused the trolling, sneering, name calling, tears, snotters etc.

    58. Liz g says:

      Scottie dog @ 6.26
      My take…
      It was a movie about a solider who fought to free his country and got killed fur it.
      A soldier’s story!!
      Every country has one,but this one was OURs and now because of that movie,most of the world knows his name,his country… And his movie catchphrase…
      As a Scot whats not to like?

    59. starlaw says:

      Dumfries may have its sorrows to seek with its falling down school I believe the towns new leisure centre is in the same boat and the local Tory council are talking about demolishing this Leisure centre. Why are the BBC not highlighting this are we not to know who designed or who built these buildings…. Now had it been an SNP council we would even know the name of the tea lady.

    60. Liz g says:

      Valerie @ 7.28
      Thanks for the reply Valerie… Should be interesting to see what they do with it!
      Hope to see ye there?

    61. jfngw says:

      Vince Cable speaks, BBC reports it, Scotland laughs.

      Although I’ll go along with him somewhat. If a truly Scottish party is elected with a confirmation referendum in their manifesto then I’ll agree. No parties with only branch offices in Scotland and answerable to UK parties allowed to demand Scotland remain in subjugation after we vote to end the Treaty of Union.

    62. Robert Peffers says:

      A great man once said, (Victor Hugo):-

      “There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come.”

      Well actually what Victor Hugo said, in French, was more like, “One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas.”

      But, Hey! That is close enough for the idea of Scottish Independence and that idea’s time has certainly come. It won’t stop the Westminster Establishment trying to stop it, though, but they will go down still trying, but go down they will.

    63. Tinto Chiel says:

      A reflective piece from a poster of old, whose opinions Wingers might find interesting:

    64. Dr Jim says:

      Bella Independence or no Independence but it certainly can’t be a WOS Independence because that would be totally wrong
      Wings Independence has no proper unkempt beard or scratchy face nor does it sit in cafes in Byres road and drink raffia flavoured soya juice while reading Kafka

      Independence isn’t for ordinary people for they don’t understand the deep and meaningful purpose of Gorse and it’s effects on the moon and tidal cycle nor do they comprehend the study of shite and the waiting for it to turn into a centient life form

      Ahm right int ah, ye kin see ahve read thon tastless gruel of a blog, ah nearly turned pasty and died efter ah read it

    65. Robert Peffers says:

      @jfngw says: 13 September, 2018 at 7:41 pm:

      ” … Vince Cable speaks, BBC reports it, Scotland laughs.
      Although I’ll go along with him somewhat. If a truly Scottish party is elected with a confirmation referendum in their manifesto then I’ll agree.”

      Yes, jfngw, but there are two quite different mindsets at work there.

      The unionists see the situation as being, “The region of the United Kingdom known as Scotland wants to leave the United Kingdom”.

      While the independence movement see the situation as The Kingdom of Scotland ending the Treaty of Union.

      The unionist view is legally and demonstratively wrong while the independence movement view is 100% legally correct and the very title of the resultant union proves the point beyond any legal doubt. The United Kingdom correctly describes a bipartite union of kingdoms. It does not describe a quadratic union of countries.

      The treaty document has only the signatures of two independent kingdoms on the document and there are two official royal seals attached thereon. They are the two kingdom’s seals. One is that of the Monarch of the Kingdom of England and the other is of the Monarch of Scots.

      On independence day the United Kingdom legally ends – no matter what Westminster care to call itself thereafter it will still be a single kingdom the contains three countries. (Although Ireland may have united by then).

    66. yesindyref2 says:

      You get Unionist activists saying there won’t be another Indy Ref and Strugeon will have to march all the troops back down the hill (thinking grand old duke of york).

      But the answer is that Sturgeon is no Leslie, she’ll keep us all at the top of the hill and starve the Unionists into submission.

    67. Bob Mack says:

      Often, the cause becomes the vehicle which offers the opportunity to promote yourself rather than the cause.

      I have seen this with several indy sites and initiatives.
      Self importance is the greatest enemy we have. It is a movement which by necessity ,may ask you to give more than you take. This is difficult for some who envisage opportunities for self and public recogniton at the end of the process.

      Forgetting your core purpose is an inevitable hazard of focusing more on the chance to sit at the top table.

      Luckily enough,Wings has never fallen into that trap as yet, and I do not believe the contributors would idly stand by ,if it ever did.

    68. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bob Mack
      Indeed. When we get Indy I’m going back to hill-walking, maybe a bit reading (I’ve got the Hackett WWIII follow-up to read yet), some music, eating, drinking – and being merry! The only top table I’ll be at is our own. Where’s ma tea? (Don’t tell my wife I said that).

    69. Shinty says:

      Liz g -don’t worry, Tommy Sheridan specifically said they will not be showing Wallace being tortured to death.

    70. stu mac says:

      @orri says:
      13 September, 2018 at 3:59 pm
      Just that Scotland exercised it’s right to choose it’s monarch. The English refused to accept it.


      Much more complicated than that. The Covenanters originally fought on the side of Parliament against the King but then later thought they could get a UK wide Calvinistic rule by switching the king. Charles signed the Covenant – though why they would trust such an untrustworthy man but as Dunbar shows their judgement wasn’t too good. (It was Charles untrustworthiness that eventually got him beheaded. The Parliament side wanted a deal – they couldn’t conceive a country without a king – but they found he was plotting against them even while negotiating. It was him or them.) Until Charles was executed he was King of both England and Scotland. So the Scots Calvinists weren’t choosing a King. Both sides already had the same King but both were at different times in dispute (leading to war) with him. From Cromwell’s point of view his actions (though oppressive) were justified since the Covenanters had been allies and were now turning against Parliament, not out of sudden loyalty to the king but to spread the “Covenant” to England.

    71. manandboy says:


      Today’s 2pm Monklands Hospital ‘consultation’ meeting in Airdrie was all about ‘listening’ we were told, even though the printed material and the large display stands all proclaimed Gartcosh as the focus group’s preferred option.The crowd were largely hostile to the Board.

      So Lanarkshire Health Board came to protect and defend their choice of Gartcosh as the deeply contaminated site on which they would build their ‘top of the class’ hospital. Very clever. World class patient care sitting on top of toxic ground.

      By choosing Gartcosh, Lanarkshire Health Board are effectively shifting the centre of gravity of the entire Monklands Catchment area of 260,000 people from Airdrie and Coatbridge to Easterhouse. As a result, Airdrie stands to lose a lot more than its hospital.

      A site at Glenmavis, offered by Wm. Bartlett for £1, was dismissed by LHB because it had no adjacent railway line. Four per cent of those travelling to Monklands use the train, most of them staff who, unlike most of the patients, are fit and well.

      During the PowerPoint presentation, no negatives about Gartcosh were on view. No details about land ownership, cost of purchase, decontamination would be £6.7 million, there might be a rail link from Glasgow to Lanark via Coatbridge Sunny Side but nothing definite. And absolutely no mention of who was going to trouser a packet in the deal.

      Hospital employees want all acute services and support to be on the ground floor of the new building. This makes for a massive footprint requiring a lot of land thereby greatly reducing the number of suitable locations. Building a multi-story hospital on a smaller site would not be ‘top of the class’ and was rejected by health professionals. Tax-payers were not acknowledged as having any input on the amount of land required.

      There were 5 SNP representatives there whom I recognised, including Iain Gray MP for Airdrie and Shotts, Alex Neil MSP, and Councillor Coyle with Councillor David Stock. It was very obvious that there was a gulf between the Board and the local politicians.

      A move from Airdrie means the present site “would be declared surplus to requirements and sold”. A golden opportunity for one of those politician-developer-brown envelope deals. Well, who trusts politicians and developers these days?

      PFI would not be used. The project would be funded by the taxpayer through the Scottish government.

      Packaged as a consultation, it was really just an exercise in PR, except not too many were taken in by it.

    72. jfngw says:

      The unionist try to obscure the issue of independence. The vote for the EU is at it’s heart a business union to facilitate trading arrangements and provide a uniform access to the single market.

      The independence vote is to decide we once again a run our own affairs. There is no need to have another vote on the ‘divorce’ settlement since that is not the objective of the referendum. I’m not voting for a trade deal but being a fully fledged independent country.

      I’m wondering if Vince Cable is contemplating calling for all countries that became independent from the British Empire to now consider the option of a referendum to consider their positions. After all none of them had a referendum to ratify their divorce settlements.

    73. Liz g says:

      Shinty @ 8.49
      Glad tae hear it Shinty…. Aw they weans wid hiv nightmares fur a month…
      Get tae bed or Longshanks will get ye… would become a thing.

      Of course wee Willy Rennie could talk in the Parliament aboot real traumatised weans…. and we really really don’t want that!

    74. Dr Jim says:

      English pound£ to become Mugabe money says Bloomberg

    75. carjamtic says:

      The Break-Up of Britain

      Tom Nairn

      ‘There is nothing left to revive this polity of stultified anachronism and complacent privilege….

      …such a break will itself be a sign of maturity.

      It will indicate a readiness to look more openly at the realities of contemporary history, and to measure ourselves against them – an ability,therefore,to recover genuine dialogue with other nations.
      To be outward looking is not (as too often believed) a question of attitudiniizing.It is the program for (this) generation and it’s implementation will be forced by practical need’

      Lots of big words,lots of boxes ticked…..

      Or as a wise man once said,be trapped forever in the Land of the Free….having a nice day.

    76. Brian says:

      In an independent Scotland should Stu be put in charge of a wholly independent media watchdog with the teeth to bite back?

      Same job as now but with a lot more power.

    77. Hamish100 says:

      A lesson from history. Don’t let the English control Scottish waters. How much money is generated by Scotlands fortunate geographic position? Lots!,
      Recent report just issued by the EU.

      Any fishing organisation/ captain who sold the rights to foreign owners should be debarred from owning any future rights.

    78. Robert Peffers says:

      Just been reading a text service item that made me smile. Libdem Leader Vince Cable has proposed making Scottish Independence harder – by adding a further hurdle to the country leaving the UK, (a.k.a. The United Kingdom.

      Now, what was that I was saying on my previous comment on this thread?

      The two contrasting mindsets and only one of them is legally correct. Vince sees Scottish independence as a region of the, country called the UK, (a.k.a. The United Kingdom. However, The United Kingdomis by definition a Kingdom and not a country.

      Let them get on with an unenforceable change in the United Kingdom legislation for any good lawyer could take the matter to court and all the proof that lawyer needs is the title United Kingdom and a copy of the text of the Treaty of Union.

      Then if the Westminster lawyers claim the Treaty of Union doesn’t apply they leave themselves open to being told that if it doesn’t apply the Treaty of Union is already over.

      Their long established brainwashing that they got away with for so long by constant abuse of the terms kingdom and country simple has no legislative backing.

    79. Fred says:

      Latest Bella offering attacks John Swinney & the SNP over infant testing & sides with the opportunistic Tory bastards. It just gets worse.

    80. Thepnr says:


      I couldn’t even read that crap all the way through, it was that bad. I’m surprised that they have any supporters of Independence left as readers if that is now typical of the standard of articles they publish.

    81. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, I typed Bella Caledonia in while eating a hard boiled egg and bread and butter, for my supper, and it came out as “vekka fakefonis”.

      Sadly it didn’t match any documents.

    82. Dr Jim says:

      Post Brexit when the great English £ drops to below the value of a cornflake and house prices tumble to there lowest level since the Flintstones what’s the betting that banks will crank up interest rates so that our young people who won’t have any jobs anyway still have to pay a million sqillion pounds in mortgage payments or be homeless but the people who own squillion pound houses who’ll lose some of it will be on the telly shouting the loudest about it while at the same time buying up all the cheap properties younger folk are getting chucked out of

      And of course it will all be the fault of the SNP for not getting behind the Tories and the English government who would have had a hugely successful Brexit if it wasn’t for them, and you know what there’ll still be people who’ll believe that as they’re selling their children so they can still buy a season ticket

      The only hope for the future is if the Tories tell over 75s no more free TV licence, by Christ they’ll be queing up to vote for Independence then, exceptions being the intelligent folk who already don’t pay their stupid government tax for a TV channel I bet most of them hardly watch anyway

      Can anyone imagine any government anywhere trying to introduce a tax on owning something that is capable of receiving something you don’t want, like a letterbox

    83. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr –

      I share yer frustration.

      The author makes some good points, but they’re lost in a miasma of utopian pish – the ‘education system’ is what it is, and it takes a long time to change any of it.

      We’re not exactly ‘spring-chickens’, so it’s maybe fair to say that our experience of school isn’t *that* far-removed from what we’ve heard from our own weans.

    84. remo says:

      @ Thepnr

      Just read that Bella tripe. I never liked Bella and haven’t read any of its bumph for some considerable time. This article reinforces my decision. The person who wrote it does not know of what he speaks. I think he writes tripe for the Grauniad and such-like. If it is the same person and I think it is, he trod the boards at the actual chalk-face as a teacher in a real school with real weans for a (very) short time before he suddenly transformed into some sort of educational guru. He writes and lectures on educational stuff. I suspect his income/profile is boosted by producing this type of article. I was a secondary teacher for a (very) long time and could go on about testing weans in schools for some time but I would bore the drawers off everybody. I also met folks who couldn’t teach their way out of a wet paper bag, who climbed the educational greasy pole very quickly as well. As a wee Paisley buddy once said when faced with educational rubbish. “Away and shite in a poke”. I am not completely sure what this means but in the case of Bella, I concur with the Paisley buddy.

    85. smithie says:

      yesindyref2 @ 12;03am

      Oh you missed a trick there….should have added some scrunched up cheese and onion crisps to that sarnie…yum yum.

      Just ask Annie Wells the aficionado of sarnies

    86. Tam the Bam. says:

      ‘Incandescent wae rage’ me on RADIO 5 LIVE shortly (mibeez!)

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      I had some plain crisps with them, Walkers, they were on offer. Not pickled union strangely enough. What an incredibly annoying and patronising ad, I think I might stick to Morrisons crisps.

    88. Tam the Bam. says:

      Tam the Bam @ 12-30 am

      …evidently being ‘INCANDESCENT WAE RAGE ‘ didnae get me on the airwaves…….shucks.

    89. Still Positive says:

      I’ve not read the Bella Caledonia website for yonks so I don’t know what you are all talking about.

      Remo @12.16 I taught alongside a Remo as St. Andrew’s, Carntyne in the 90s wonder if it is you?

    90. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, just thinking about that by the way. A few of us refer to the union as the onion at times, maybe Walkers did think we’d pick up on “pickled onion” and take it with a pinch of salt, and this was their subtle way of declaring their support for Independence.

      next time I eat a packet I’ll look for the secret crisp at the bottom.

    91. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 1.13
      Jist whit kind of crazy arsed eggs did ye actually eat fur yer supper??

    92. Gary says:

      I’ve never seen the film, and I’m never going to either.

      Too long and too boring (it’s about history)

      I got history at school and it bored the life out of me, we DID have a subject called ‘Modern Studies’ that cover the newer, more interesting parts of history BUT the likes of me weren’t allowed into those classes.

      I’m interested in the future of my country and hopefully it being a new independent, forward thinking country too…

    93. Orri says:

      A rail link is ducking pointless if it isn’t on the same line. If, as I suspect, the plan is to eat a chunk out of Drumpelier Country Park and they want to use a rail link as a decider then a new stop between Easterhouse and Blairhill would be best. Site near where the M73 crosses the southern edge.

    94. Cactus says:

      Morning, early the night…

      In case any buddy missed this one:

      William Wallace.


    95. Liz g says:

      Gary @ 1.55
      Aw, that’s a wee shame Gary, history can be fun and it really helps us to not make mistakes that we know others have made… and that will certainly help with Scotland’s future.
      When you think about it, one day kids will be learning the history of how Scotland got her independence back.
      I hope they don’t find us boring.
      As for modern studies… well my kids got that subject and I can only speak for North Lanarkshire, but it seemed to me that all they got told about was the NHS and the Welfare state.
      Which was more or less setting them up to believe in and always vote for Labour…
      So mibbi you didn’t miss much!

    96. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ 2.14
      Morning Cactus… Wilderness of Peace certainly writes some great and thoughtful stuff.
      Bella could learn a thing or two from him..

    97. ahundredthidiot says:

      Scots in particular, but mostly everyone who lives here, need to stop talking the place down. Now I dont listen to radio, but i have heard snippets of those football forums and quite frankly those people should be ashamed of themselves.

      That sort of insidious wearing down a subject is the thing to fear most and we should all challenge it wherever we see it.

      Talk it up. We can argue the other side of Indy.

    98. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Liz, a howde ye do, aye Al’s articles are excellent, cheers to above.

      Onwards to the HOMEcoming gig in Edinburgh Oct ’18.

      (ps ahm bringin’ 10,000 of us over wae me, ah’ve hired a train departing frae the station at 7 o’clock wae 1,000 carriages bound for oor Capital City, pps ahm yer driver. 🙂

    99. smithie says:

      yesindyref2 lol yer aff yer nut

    100. Petra says:

      Some good news for Scotland’s “good news” site.

      If you want to know what’s going on in Scotland visit Wings and take a look at Professor John Robertson’s latest blogs:

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Nut eggs 🙂

    102. Petra says:

      Did anyone hear the Lib-dems say, that when we lost in 2014, there should have been a re-run?

      Wee Ginger Dug: ‘The Confirmatory Referendum.’

    103. Dorothy Devine says:

      Cactus , that was a really good article thanks – not so sure about the music but Tom Petty turned up on the same page so I indulged in him instead!

    104. Check out FMQ yesterday.
      Davidson, Rennie, and leonard, and their grossly bloated little band of Failures in connivance with Kenny Mac attempting to reduce our parliament to a wee parish council yet again.
      Lamont, Gray, and Baillie, lolling about like ancient dying pachyderms blundering inexorably towards the Unionist Elephants’ Graveyard.
      Lies about P1 testing, teaching Furrin Languiages, delays in the Ferries, ‘25,000 children refused mental health services on ‘her watch’ as Leonard attempts to read his script with out running his index finger over evryword in his SPAD-prepared sponataneous outburst, and Mum2B Ruth, who unlike the TARDIS is a lot bigger outside than the intellect inside,and her deputy Carlaw, the failed car salesman, laughing their fucking heads off.
      They are a tired old bunch of chancers who do not give a toss any more, and it shows.
      I ask, why doesn’t the Moderator scream from the roof tops about foodbanks, the rape clause, Scotland being dragged out of Europe against its express wishes?
      Answers on the back of your hymn sheets to CoS.
      We are on the edge of Darkness.
      You are with us or against us.
      It’s as simple as that.

    105. thomas says:

      Good article , succint and to the point.

      This article made me think of the paisley witches 50 years after dunbar , when a group of men women and children were accussed of witchcraft , kangaroo courted by the local presbytery and burned to death.

      Remember my old grandpa telling me the story as we used to take the bus past the cross roads at maxwelton and drive over the horse shoe in the middle of the road where the remains were buried.

      Will we need new horse shoes put all over cross roads in scotland in honour of the independence supporters brought down by the usual muppets sowing dissent among us with their puritanical views on an independent scotland?

    106. Nana says:

      Why would Scotland’s #Farmers, with our globally-trusted #FarmAssurance Scheme, want to be part of the ‘LittleRedTractor’? It’s the regulatory equivalent of asking a duchess in pearls to wear a bracelet made of macaroni.

      THREAD: All this nonsense you’ve been hearing for the last few months about the Growth Commission being a neoliberal takeover of the indy movement is total unmitigated bull.

    107. Fred says:

      @ manandboy, good to see parochialism still still alive & flourishing in Darkest Lanarkshire, Gartcosh is an excellent site, right next to the motorway & railway station, loads of space for car-parking & a nice rural aspect, great news for Cumbernauld even. Miles-away Easterhoose even rates a mention in your diatribe as a black mark. Let me tell you, the good people of Easterhoose have to travel about ten miles into the city for a hospital, Stobhill or the Royal, & think nothing of it, much further to the new Southern General where presumably Airdrie weans are also welcome at the Sick-Children’s.

      For folk in Caithness who have to travel for a whole day attending hospital appointments in Inverness, ten minutes in a bus or car from Airdrie to Gartcosh would be a delight indeed & your “Deeply Contaminated” site will doubtless be “Deeply De-contaminated!” before a brick is laid. To peeps unfamiliar with this former steelworks site the Polis forensic headquarters is already there & no adverse reports of collapsing polis scientists have yet to reach Jackie Burd, herself a picture of health & a product of that “Deeply Contaminated” iron & steel district of North Lanarkshire. Crivvens-jings the centre of gravity jist shiftit therr, as the pints slide down the length of the bar. Gartcosh folks, a greyhound’s walk from Coatbridge! Glenmavis! where the fuck is Glenmavis?

      “Easterhouse!” I can just see aghast Airdrieonian coupons at the meetin!

    108. stu mac says:

      @stu mac says:
      13 September, 2018 at 9:03 pm
      Silly stu mac! You are mixing the 2 Charles’s up. Charles pere did try to do a deal with the Covenanters but got found out and executed. His son was the one who signed the Covenant – though they were naive to believe he’d have kept his word. Point is the same though – it was all about imposing the Covenanters’ religious system on England, not about supporting the King.

      I see no one has dug me up about that, interest run its course probably. No apologies for boring you by bringing it up, needed to correct my blunder.

    109. stu mac says:

      @Brian says:
      13 September, 2018 at 10:33 pm
      In an independent Scotland should Stu be put in charge of a wholly independent media watchdog with the teeth to bite back?


      Naw. He’d do a great job but it would be seen as a political appointment (yes I know he’s not in the SNP but opposition would spin it that way). I suggest rather it be initially set up with Foreign media experts plus some Scottish academics with media expertise. Folk should gradually be brought into it from the Scottish media – but only folk who were not leading media/paper people before. Give new generation a chance to develop in a bias free atmosphere and then you have folk that can eventually be brought in to replace the foreigners. Obviously foreign media folk must be good at their job – no Fox news or state propaganda types.

    110. frogesque says:

      We have one job to complete, stand strong, hold the line, Independence!

      Multi tasking can come afterwards.

    111. ronnie anderson says:

      liz g I remember the Day/Night of The Wilderness of Piece 1st appear’d on Wings i hud ah tear in ma ein on reading it.

      Waves tae Taranach & Geraldine XX.

    112. Naina Tal says:

      OT: On GMS this morning Vice Pres of NFU calling out BBC for using shots of calves being shoved down chutes on the documentary programme about Scottish calves.Trouble was the footage was from some years ago and not filmed in Scotland but in Eastern Europe.

      “That’s Fraud” sez the man. They couldn’t get him off air quick enough! Even NFU are seeing it now.

    113. Muscleguy says:

      The Wikipedia article on Dunbar is a little disingenuous. ‘All they had to do was wait’? What if their supply ships turned up? Just because they were not there then doesn’t mean they could not have turned up, picked up Cromwell and Co and dropped them in Leith behind Leslie’s lines.

      Life is never that simple though the weird politics at Wikipedia might like it to be so.

    114. Les Wilson says:

      On the currency issue, I understand the want to ” not scare the horses” point. However, being tied in any way to sterling after a brexit disaster would be a serious folly. We need to cut the cord.

      We do need a Scottish pound, and we do need to start getting this set up. We need the power our own currency can offer us. Again, in my opinion, we should use a basket of currencies to spread our risk.
      Reading about the Chinese currency and what they base that on, is a basket of currencies and they reported this has served them well and will continue to do so.
      That for me, it proves such a system works well.

      The Pound will be crushed after Brexit, a cliff fall leave, will crater the currency and we will all suffer more hardship than we should. Preparations for this should be made now, our investment bank should be set up ASAP. I know the process has started, but needs sped up.

      I would also hope for a Scottish customer bank to be set up, with very tight but fair regulation,and a fair interest rate. One that ordinary folks can use with confidence, and use it they will.

      Just to throw more fuel to the fire, I would also like to see us in EFTA rather than the EU proper, at least for a period of time.
      We can have a vote on full membership a bit down the road.

      I do not know what others think but I feel the EU is becoming too much like a huge corporation that has it’s own agenda and ever draconian laws over everything. It has been seen how they handled Catalonia just to placate Spain.

      Much good too of course, things of value to us but I sense a change of direction with the EU. I hope I an wrong.
      Either way, we need a bit time to see how this all develops but our fundamentals need to be absolutely ready to use.

    115. Ian McCubbin says:

      Interesting and no real internal civil war will erupt this time.
      We as members of Independence movement know SNP is the vehicle and currently they are building a good case and situation on many fronts some of which are unseen.
      To the independence day, raise a standard.

    116. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana. I’ve just worked my way through them (my morning fix, lol). but I’m now in a rush. So just a brief mention of two of them.

      Extremely informative:

      Absolutely hilarious (if it wasn’t so serious):

    117. ronnie anderson says:

      fred Where’s Glenmavis even a shorter GreyHound walk from Coatbridge ,the problem with Health Boards when a new Hospital is required They dont factor in more ground for expansion due to population growth Monklands/Wishaw/ Hairmiers spread out like store dugs ,build them higher .

    118. Old Pete says:

      Can’t believe how stupid the Liberal Democrats can be, but then again with wee Willie and lying Joe in their ranks I can understand why.

    119. Petra says:

      So much for me running late, lol.

      @ Naina Tal at 8:56am …. MORE BBC PROPAGANDA!

      That should be posted far and wide, Naina Tal.

      It reminds of the BBC showing footage of dead bodies in Syria when in actual fact the footage related to Iraq in 2003. Years earlier. It just so happened the photographer in question saw the news item and complained.

      In other words the BBC is no more or less than a propaganda machine. Those behind the lies should be hanging their heads in shame.

    120. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 14 September, 2018 at 12:13 am:

      ” … Can anyone imagine any government anywhere trying to introduce a tax on owning something that is capable of receiving something you don’t want, like a letterbox.

      Well, Dr Jim, They did introduce a Window tax:-

      The window tax, based on the number of windows in a house, was first introduced in 1696 by William III to cover revenue lost by the clipping of coinage. It was a banded tax according to the number of windows in the house. … Not long after its introduction, people bricked up their windows to avoid paying the tax.

    121. galamcennalath says:

      ” While elections are free in Hungary, observers have noted that they are not very fair. The government controls the media and the opposition are not allowed a fair hearing. “

      Best Soviet style or have they been learning from the UK perhaps?

      Hungary’s far right proto Fascists certainly seem to have the backing of the UK’s far right proto Fascists.

    122. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Naina Tal

      Good, once seen, the bias can not be unseen.
      My view is we should just call it out, lets not give it the pretence of neutrality.
      It is a unionist institution, fine, its Westminster that set it up, gave it a charter & guarantees its revenue. It is beholden, I can accept that. Just don’t let it pretend to be objective.

    123. Shinty says:

      Naina Tal says at 8.56am

      ““That’s Fraud” sez the man. They couldn’t get him off air quick enough! Even NFU are seeing it now”

      Thanks for that.

      BritNats need to keep the farmers and fishermen on their side or they are well and truly f**K*d. So hopefully all this manipulation will finally get through to these folk and make them start to ask questions.

      I know there are 4 or 5 former NFU chiefs now over to YES but no idea if the 2014 ‘Farming for Yes’ group is still active.

      Mundell and his party are certainly ramping up ‘project fear & SNP bad’ within these communities, as they know how important their votes are to preserve the union.

      We all know they don’t give a stuff about Scotland, fishing or farming or any other industry, their sole purpose is to preserve the union at all costs

    124. Fred says:

      @ Ronnie, anent this Glenmavis site which is offered by Bartlett for £1, is this the Bartlett who has made millions sticking Union Jack’s on Scottish totties?

      @ Stu Mac, Scotland was not the aggressor in this war, the casus-belli was Charles I attempting to force Anglicanism & himself as head of the Kirk on Scotland, this conflict in three kingdoms caused carnage not seen again till the Great War. The English Parliament only joined in when Charles needed cash from them. His two sons were as thick as their father & so it went on!

    125. galamcennalath says:

      I see the Daily Redcoat has an article today about Alex Salmond. Heavy in hearsay and innuendo, lacking in substance or evidence. Just more gutter propaganda as it stands. All ‘some arsehole said’ style.

      A real newspaper wouldn’t run with shite like this without firm evidence, references, and named sources, that would journalism.

    126. HandandShrimp says:

      I was listening to the radio briefly this morning and the Labour chap Chris Byants was on talking about the Salisbury incident. I have no idea who did what and it is certainly the case that opposition in Russia does result in attacks, arrest and fatalities, so the two chaps, who do look like military types, could easily be the agents used to deliver the poison. However, what struck me was Bryants reasoning for the action…to detract from issues in Russia and make Russia look great again. He cited rising pension ages, austerity etc., and it crossed my mind “who or what are we poisoning to distract from all these things?” because he could just as easily have been talking about the UK with his list of woes.

    127. jfngw says:

      BBC produces a Question Time pie chart to prove how fair and equal they are. All it proves is how irrelevant this programme is to Scotland. SNP with 37 percent of vote receives 3% invites, UKIP with less than 5% in Scotland receives the same amount of invites (although I suspect this UKIP number is higher if you changed the start year to 2010 rather than 2000). Tories, with at one point only one MP, receives 21% (that’s a 100% of programmes as there is one on every week) invites.

      Basically all it proves is this programme is made for voters in England, the other Nations are practically irrelevant. But I suspect those at the BBC still believe they are balanced.

      Never watched it for years, give me the questions and the panel members and I can predict the answer from each without ever having to listen to them. Basically stopped watching when Dimbleby slapped down someone from the SNP with ‘he didn’t care how they did things in Scotland’

    128. Ian McCubbin says:

      I hope we have all fronts covered this time and Keith Brown now having united the civil war forces can take the battle out towards an independence goal..

    129. Ken500 says:

      Daily Record trash. More Labour lies. They are just despicable. Low lives. Alex Salmond has kept staff and friends for years. Had female colleagues for years. Respected, supported and promoted women. Without a whiff of scandal. The way Alex Salmond has been treated is disgraceful. Extremely badly.

      Can’t wait for the Lawsuits. Especially against the Press. Leslie Deans will have to resign for withholding accusations and evidence. She is not a Law enforcer. There is one elected FM. There is not need for another, on a higher salary.

      The Chief prosecutor in the south had to resign for withholding evidence from the Defence which would have cleared people.

      Labiur are a disgrace. How people can vote Tory, especially in Scotland is a mystery. LibDems are liars.

    130. remo says:

      @ Still Positive

      It wisnae me yer honour.

    131. Fred says:

      Oor Jack Collatin getting tore intae Bella, time it took a good look at itself!

    132. HandandShrimp says:

      What is the Record’s problem? Are they worried their first set of smears are going nowhere?

      It is no secret that Alex was demanding of civil servants who tried to drag their heels. Gordon Brown likewise expected things to be done. It is often the case that people interpret being told off for not doing their job as bullying. This is very old news.

    133. Footsoldier says:

      “Vince Cable said any vote in favour of independence should be followed by another referendum on the terms of the exit settlement before Scotland leaves”.

      Can you imagine rUK giving Scotland anything in such a scenario.

    134. Eckle Fechan says:

      IMHO it works as intended – a succinct and powerful metaphor from history.

      I’m reminded of my Dad who, on the eve of my Higher resits, and having spent the year in silence mind (not a word), said to me, “Don’t fuck it up this time”. No pressure eh.

      Sturgeon has weight on her shoulders, we all have, thinking of what’s a stake here, the prize or more pain, occupation and servitude.

      Twist-time is coming soon I believe.

    135. Baldeagle58 says:

      galamcennalath says:

      14 September, 2018 at 10:05 am

      A real newspaper wouldn’t run with shite like this without firm evidence, references, and named sources, that would journalism.

      Hmmm. Can you put the Daily Redcoat and the term ‘a real newspaper’ in the same comment?
      It hasn’t been ‘a real newspaper’ for years. Time for it to die a natural death.

    136. mike cassidy says:


      We don’t need no stinking experts!

    137. HandandShrimp says:

      I wonder if Vince mentioned his cunning plan to Willie who is currently not talking to the Scottish Government unless they scrap Indy altogether 🙂

    138. Robert Peffers says:

      @Eckle Fechan says: 14 September, 2018 at 10:52 am:

      ” …Twist-time is coming soon I believe.”

      I believe you are right, Eckle Fechan.

      However, I also believe that when it comes it will arrive right out of the blue and may be by a process that is totally unexpected.

      I just get the impression that this whole thing is like a beautiful big white swan all serene and calm above the waterline but with the feet and legs below the waterline going like the clappers of the bells of hell.

    139. Fred says:

      Dearie-me, the National has printed Tuesday’s race-card the day!

    140. Naina Tal says:

      Previous disappeared!
      GMS article on calves was on this morning’s edition at 1:59:30 in. If you want to hear the BBC getting tell’t on their own programme. By the NFU too!

    141. Luigi says:

      Ken500 says:

      14 September, 2018 at 10:22 am

      Daily Record trash. More Labour lies.

      Indeed. And this is nothing compared to what’s coming. Things are getting desperate and it’s going to get really dirty – far worse than 2104 (which was bad enough). You ain’t seen nothing yet. 🙂

      With Brexit, the UK has two options: economic collapse and associated chaos/political meltdown, or complete humiliation. The mother of all no-win situations. Well done, Mr Cameron – I guess you got a bit over-confident after personally “winning” 2014 and humiliating the scots. Well a bigger humiliation awaits and this time it ain’t for Scotland. May has to either go it alone, or come back from the EU with a pathetic deal. The people in England seem to be raging already. They are now in no mood to compromise. After all, “Brexit mean Brexit”, right? It may save the UK economy but for the Brexiteers it will be seen as an utter betrayal. Sure, BBC and the Tory press will dress it up as a great victory to try and save face, but no one will be fooled. The UK will go from being a very influential EU member to becoming an EU colony, paying as much if not more than before, but with with no voting rights. How will it feel to be a doormat, Mrs May?

    142. Ottomanboi says:

      It is the self-righteousness of some Scots as manifest in the historic and ultimately futile Covenanting mindset that has made it so easy for the foreign dividers and rulers to have their way. Factionalism is a weakness. Scotland is where it is thanks to a venal parochialism that cannot see Scotland, the country, for individual self-interest, the Unionist worldview on a plate.

    143. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Naina Tal

      Preceeded by a wee kick at RBS & the Euro too. What fun.

    144. Nana says:

      In an action brought by @GoodLawProject and funded by you via @Crowdjustice the HC has just found that the Electoral Commission erred in law. I will publish a full analysis shortly – link to follow – but the headlines are these. THREAD

      press release

    145. ronnie anderson says:

      fred I dare say U could be right Bartlett bought a lot of land around Glenmavis including the site for their factory witch was denied to Airdrionians Football club by the then Labour council but due to a free golfing holiday to Portugal Bartlett got the site with planning permission .

    146. Meg merrilees says:

      WELL, the Daily Wrecker deserves an irrelevance award this morning.

      On the day that we learn driving licences might not be valid in the EU Post- Brexit, that Britain is open to a GM food revolution Post -Brex; that house prices might crash by 35% P-B; that the Novichok suspects have been identified and interviewed on TV; that Prince William asked a group of Japanese students if they liked Chinese food ( ffs) ….
      … the Daily Record thinks the most important information in the world this morning is the gossip that Alex Salmond was (apparently) a bully.

      They really are out to tarnish the man- he must have upset them something awful.

      ‘They’ are getting so desperate now that is becoming comical to watch/listen

    147. Nana says:

      @Fred 10.39am

      Here’s Jack’s comment from Bella, well said Jack!!

      Jack collatin 14th September 2018 at 9:00 am
      And while you argue that the rusting rivets on the Titanic need a fresh coat of paint, Scotland is being sold into slavery.

      Willie Rennie and Mum2B Davidson should have had their desks pushed together at FMQ yesterday.

      That way they could have held hands and slipped notes to each other slagging off Sturgeon.

      Similarly Iain Gray and Liz Smith should have paired up at the back of the class and declared their undying love for each other in French, or German, or Italian, or any other European language which our pupils will not be able to use in later life because they will be held behind barbed wire and watch towers in England’s Brave New Free Trade world.

      Cancelled ferries, Leonard proving that he failed his own P1 Assessment by running his finger over each word of his latest SPAD prepared ‘on her watch’ outburst NHS SNP BAD scandal.

      Like the Scotland International team calling on a crusty old has-been to manage the team, the Red Tory Branch Office paraded their Oldie But Goldie back three of Lamont, Baillie, and Gray yesterday, who peddled the same old same old Parish council dirges, the central theme of which was, is, and always will be, SNP BAD and Nikla is the devil incarnate.

      We are on the brink of the most cataclysmic disaster ever to hit these shores since WW II, yet, Bella’s energy is down there in the Parish council, peddling former Labour Militant Larry Flanagan’s dossier from the Unionist agitators, and promoting Upstart’s get out the Lego and Brio railway, we can be the next Sweden. let the children play, agenda.

      Most of us have a sense that we are at war, fighting for our very existence,while others are checking the stationery cupboard and bemoaning the shortage of ink wells and pen nibs.
      The P1 farce is politically motivated,designed to undermine the Movement towards Self Determination.

      Upstart is a group of Middle Class mainly middle and senior aged Academics and Experts peddling their version of Early Education, that’s all.

      Brexit and Scotland’s very existence should be the sole topic of discussion at the moment. Not the Ardrossan Ferry cancellations.
      The Barbarian is at the door.
      Wake up, rise up, and fight for Scotland, not your next little sinecure.

    148. Nana says:

      Managers at BBC Scotland amended the online version of Disclosure: the Dark Side of Dairy after a formal complaint by the National Farmers Union. Footage of calves being transported to north Africa was removed after the BBC acknowledged they had come from Hungary, not Scotland.

      Of course this is an area , presently devolved, in which the Tories are insisting there has to be a UK framework, limiting the powers of @ScotParl
      Article no longer available?

    149. Fred says:

      Thanks for that Nana.

      @ Ronnie, so not just a “Clean Tattie” then?

    150. Thepnr says:


      Thanks for posting Jack’s comment from Bella, I went to read it 10 mins ago after reading Fred’s post and it had GONE!

      Criticism it seems, doesn’t set well with those over at Bella.

    151. Petra says:

      Well, well well! Thanks Nana. What next?

      ‘…What’s now clear is that the referendum was won on points by a crooked fighter with the help of a hapless umpire. This is the stuff of tin pot potentates. Our democracy will be an international laughing stock if we continue to pretend there is a proper mandate to leave the EU…”


      @ Nana says at 11:48 am …. ”In an action brought by @GoodLawProject and funded by you via @Crowdjustice the HC has just found that the Electoral Commission erred in law. I will publish a full analysis shortly – link to follow – but the headlines are these. THREAD

      press release

    152. Petra says:

      Fantastic that some people take the time to check this stuff out …. the Great Scottish Electoral Anomaly (ies).


      A National Letter from Selma Rahman, Edinburgh : ‘Boundary plans show we’re seen as less than a region.’

      ”It’s just another example of how Westminster and the political, ruling elite regard us here in Scotland. Not a country, not a nation, never an equal partner in the spurious union, and now, even less than a region. It’s the proposed boundary changes that are really exercising me at the moment!

      The “less than a region” refers to the fact that if, or rather when, these changes are enacted, Scotland the nation – with a population in excess of five million and rising – will be reduced to 53 MPs whilst a single region in England, the south-east, will have 81 MPs. This means to my simple, non-mathematical brain that even if all 53 Scottish MPs were to vote against an Act with contents that they believe to be detrimental to us, then 81 MPs from a region outwith Scotland could impose the Act upon us.

      It also puts an end to the myth that Labour have touted forever, that we sway the vote here: we get Labour in and keep the Tories out.

      I do believe that no matter the turmoil in Westminster, the Tory party will make every effort to push this through. After all, it is to their benefit and if there is any possibility that the Tories could gain a majority sufficient to govern without the likes of the DUP and the need for a bung, they will pursue that path.

      Tommy Sheppard MP is correct when he points out this will “diminish Scotland’s voice” in Westminster (‘Ludicrous’ boundaries proposals reduce Scotland’s voice in the UK, September 11). Not least that the Brexit shambles is impacting negatively on everyday governing. But at the very moment when the rUK government should be held to account, inspection and accountability, this is a diversionary tactic that when enacted will lead to less democratic scrutiny and the greater ability of the few to govern the many who do not elect them.

      Some of those who support the British establishment may regard the first-past-the-post electoral system, and such boundary changes, as democracy in action and fall back on words like “United” Kingdom and one Great Britain. I don’t regard this as democracy in action and neither do I recognise those outdated namings. I just hope that Scotland doesn’t either. So, irrespective of party politics, let’s ask: which country, which nation (and no, they will not be allowed to deny us those definitions) votes to dismantle and reduce its representation within the legislative arena? I can’t think of any, and please, it’s too early for “turkeys voting for Christmas”.

      There is no denying the chatter on social media regarding this, and I was struck by a comment from Moira Cochrane of Edinburgh WFI, “no taxation without representation” – an interesting thought possibly along the same lines as not paying that fee to the BBC. But whatever way we do demonstrate and remonstrate against the boundary changes, it’s obvious what we should be voting for and that is regaining our independence, and the sooner the better.”

    153. yesindyref2 says:

      Wow, what a great posting from Jack Collatin.

      But will they pay attention? No, they’ll probably ban him as they (he) did me – and without even saying so.

    154. Meg merrilees says:

      Nana @1.28

      so the BBC liars have amended their statement in the documentary, so they should, but will they apologise on air, will they take back those banner headlines, have they approached the ferry company to ask them to re-instate the transportation of live calves over to N. Ireland thereby saving the lives of several farmers who depend on being able to sell on their young calves to break even while they struggle without the £160m subsidy they were supposed to get from the EU but which has been spent elsewhere.

      Shame on them in the first place.

    155. yesindyref2 says:

      Good detailed answer from Legerwood as well, as always even when I disagree wtih what he says (at least I presume I do sometimes. maybe I don’t!). Usual trite petty comment from the “Editor”, who should probably refrain from going btl at all, except to clarify if something’s genuinely unclear.

    156. Legerwood says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      14 September, 2018 at 5:05 pm
      Good detailed answer from Legerwood as well, as always even when I disagree wtih what he says (at least I presume I do sometimes. maybe I don’t!). “”

      Do you disagree with something I said? Have to admit I was surprised my comments got through. Could have written a lot more but…

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      No, I don’t disagree with anything you said!

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