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Wings Over Scotland

Prop up your jaws

Posted on June 25, 2019 by

You’re going to need to before you watch today’s episode of The Jeremy Vine Show, featuring Paul Burrell (who used to be a royal butler about 20 years ago and somehow is now a political commentator), Nicola McLean (who used to get her surgically-altered breasts out for tabloid newspapers around the same time and then went on a reality show for halfwits with no actual talents), and Carole Malone, who we assume is some sort of live public-safety-information warning about the dangers of overdoing HRT.

Vine watches the unfolding horror with the expression of a man absolutely convinced he’s going to be murdered the next time he comes to Scotland. The most painful part is probably just after (Scottish) co-host and former weathergirl Storm Huntley (no, really) helpfully pipes up to suggest “shortbread, tartan… bagpipes” as Scotland’s economic foundations, at which point Jeremy turns in last-ditch desperation to the audience to save him from this slow-motion trainwreck and… well, you’ll see how that goes.

When the second indyref comes along, whenever the Yes campaign has a political broadcast slot on TV, we suggest just putting this on every time.

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    1. 26 06 19 19:29

      World of Fools | A Wilderness of Peace

    798 to “Prop up your jaws”

    1. Tom says:

      I’m getting it blocked for copyright reasons

    2. cynicalHighlander says:

      Was the producer Gordon Brown?

    3. Black Joan says:

      Channel 5 video blocked “in your country for copyright reasons”.

      Or because it will cause a revolution?

    4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      It should be unblocked now, I’ve filed a dispute.

    5. Morag says:

      I saw it on twitter. It’s toe-curling.

      The thing that worries me is that this keeps happening, and every time somebody says “great recruitment tool for Yes”, and the polls never budge. If we gained ONE no-to-yes for every time someone has said “they’re just driving more people to Yes” over the past five years we’d be over 60% yes by now.

    6. William Habib Steele says:

      I used my VPN to watch it in another country. Utter ignorant balderdash!

    7. King Boab says:

      Still available on this link.

      Just remember after watching it to slowly close your mouth and breathe deeply through your nose until calm returns.

    8. Jock McDonnell says:

      Oh, there’s been an intervention, followed by the most patronising pish, helpfully aided by a pet jock keen to please. Jeremy Vine is falling down. He used to be a journalist you know.

    9. RogueCoder says:

      Isn’t the sneering contempt of the English Tory class just wonderful? These people have no idea where their food, water, fuel and electricity come from.

      This toxic sense of superiority and entitlement is one of the best motivators for Scottish independence. If they think so little of us, why do they want to keep us?

    10. frogesque says:

      Watched it earlier via Faceplant

      It was excrutiating, ignorance and entitlement oozing like Ghosbusters’ slime across an audience of zombies.

    11. Donald anderson says:

      Saw it. They read and comment on the papers every day, everyone London based and Londoncentric, just like every other such progs on TV and not that the “Scottish” papers are any better.

      How much longer do we have to suffer the opinionated chattering class TV pundits, who behave as if they are in London wine bars or SE suburban afer dinner airhead chats

    12. Itchybiscuit says:

      It’s playing fine for me when I click on the link provided.

      Appalling stuff. Vine opened up a debate on a subject he knows nothing about – just like his guests.

    13. Mary miles says:

      Wonder who has brainwashed/paid Burrell to talk his nonsense! The mind boggles at how pointless this interview is. Establishment busy putting another stooge in for PM and turning up the attack on Scottish Independence. Is anyone really stupid enough to pay any heed. So much wrong with the UK and getting worse by the day.

    14. Ronnie says:

      Guess it’ll be available on catch up tomorrow – what time is the clip start at? Wouldny like to have to watch the pish coming before the pish 😉

    15. galamcennalath says:

      I can’t see the embedded version, but it’s fine on ….

      Fair to say, none of them have a scobbie!

      Ignorance personified.

    16. Welsh Sion says:

      Dear Scotland,

      Am I reading this right? *You* are blocked from seeing this?

      Yet, me, a mere Taff, living in exile in England, clicked on the above link and saw it all in its (awful) entirety.


    17. Andy Gaffney says:

      They want to keep Scotland but have no idea why.

    18. galamcennalath says:

      Where would start on this? Your could right several paragraphs eviscerating each phrase they uttered!

      It’s not just that their opinions are biased towards a UKOK position, it the incredible ignorance they display. They seem totally unaware of what Scotland has, does, produces, sells, and exports.

      However, perhaps it shows how successful the propaganda has been. They take as ‘a given’ that Scotland isn’t economically viable and that nothing like half of Scots want Indy anyway. To them Scotland is scenery, tartan, and a few weird culinary entities.

      Oh, and Betty Windsor, Queen of Scots will be made homeless.

    19. Tom says:

      Working now – and from the twitter replies the best reply to what does Scotland have?

      A functioning government.

    20. Craig P says:

      “Could Scotland survive on its own?”

      Scotland is not going to be on its own.

      The question is…

      could England?

    21. Merkin Scot says:

      There are numpties who will believe it though.

    22. A C Bruce says:

      Why are there so many cretins on their side?

      It’s mind-blowing.

    23. Stephen Withers says:

      My blood boils on listening to this nonsense from English media & i may add overboils on listening to our own Scottish MSM,however when it’s mentioned that it just adds to the Indy 2 cause i can understand you’d like to think so…however I’d never get so cosy thinking anything’s a done deal when the corruption of Westminster won’t let us go if the’ve got input….So We MUST SHUT THEM OUT!! From any Independence going forward.

    24. TheeForsakenOne says:

      Video worked fine for me and I’m in Scotland. Either way, honestly I didn’t find it that bad although I felt for Jeremy who looked like he wished that window on the set was real so he could escape. You were a bit hard Storm Huntley, though. She did suggest more than what you quoted including wind power and whiskey before Jeremy cut her off.

    25. John Higgins says:

      This is the same mentality that thinks Brexit will make ‘England ‘great again.

    26. Cactus says:

      Jeremy SchMerryMay like aye…

      Fucking Scotland NOW!!!

      Hit me

    27. Confused says:

      – vid working now. (ta BDTT!)

      I think “copyright” violation is the go-to method for getting videos taken down – its act first, questions later.

      As for the arseholes on that show – someone should be spamming their twitter with a lot of Colin Dunn’s excellent infographics.

    28. Cactus says:

      Prop up yer J’s… ah got ten minutes tae yet HOME for jj’s show on IndyL8ve Radio

    29. Al Ba says:

      Of FFS! And to think there’s folk watching that, and will be nodding, going yeah, that’s right! Is this classed as an entertainment program, a news program, or what!?

    30. Cactus says:

      Here jj, please can you PLAY S.I.S.S. again?

      Tonight like

      Ahm awa!

    31. Welsh Sion says:


      “[Storm Huntley: Scotland has] … wind power and whiskey?” Eh? 😉

    32. Welsh Sion says:

      TheForesakeOne – We are now equal in the typo stakes! 😀

    33. Andy in Germany says:

      “Scotland belongs to the United Kingdom…”

      There you are Scotland, you’re property.

    34. Dan says:

      That’s just chronic, but not unexpected from a bunch of uninformed dullards.

      A couple of links to some of Colin Dunn’s work which convey the reality of Scotland’s rich and diverse resources.

    35. Thomas Valentine says:

      I sub-contract the watching of this shite to a notable internet blogger called Rev Stuar….

    36. Dr Jim says:

      In all its glory the height of English education and gullibility to things they read in newspapers and don’t recognise as propaganda designed and tailored especially for the stupid, and these people are as stupid as they come sitting in a TV studio using the Television media that Scotland invented to tell Scotland and Scottish people we’re useless

      I am so disappointed in many ways that we bothered to save their stupid moronic arses by inventing penicillin or they would all be dead of bloody syphillis by now and we would’nt have to listen to them bleating in their semi indecipherable Patois English that only they understand about things they don’t

      27 countries full of people in the European Union screaming at them telling them they’re arsholes and the English go selectively deaf because they’re right and the world is wrong

      Maybe I’m being to hard on them they did invent the famous facial expression we Scots named Glaikit

    37. geeo says:

      Yet for all the horseshit spewing forth, Scotland is shit, too wee poor stupid etc, one of them then states Scotland is IMPORTANT to the uk !!!

      Well make yer thick fuckin mind up eh ?

      Struth !

    38. Hamish100 says:

      What would our flag look like.— maybe like the flag of st George. Idiot.

      Ex butler and many things more is a thick as mince without the needs and tattles.

      As the taxpayer pays Queenies grandson several million for his wee but and Ben. I mean she’s skint and will need to pay for a tv licence ( never).

    39. Clootie says:

      Just seen it!

      The Queen would be upset.
      How could the survive. What do they have!
      They can’t leave the UK
      All the polls show support for Independence falling.

      The Unionists are really scrapping the barrel now.
      The audience ((((((shudder)))))

    40. JLT says:

      Seriously …WTF!

      My jaw is still on the floor. I don’t know if I should be raging or wondering how this room full of truly ignorant deluded idiots is the voice of British morning telly.

      Jesus wept!

    41. defo says:

      Are we nearly there yet?
      It feels to me that everybody is just going through the motions.
      The union is dead, we’re effectively different countries in so many ways now. Some are still in denial, but acceptance seems to be the stage the UK zeitgeist is at.
      The waiting isn’t so bad, when you know the victory is utterly inevitable

    42. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says

      the English go selectively deaf because they’re right and the world is wrong

      They’ve had a lot of practice because they must be unique in the world as a nation with such an astonishly poor understanding of their own history, and how they interfaced to the rest of the world in the past.

      In general, they have no idea about Ireland and what they did there.

      They have no idea about their behaviour in India where the standard of living and real wages were higher than in the UK during the 18thC. It didn’t take long to screw them over.

      Nor, do they understand China where in the 19thC a thousand tons of opium was smuggled in annually. The massive profits were then laundered through banks who purchased Chinese tea for shipping here.

      Then, in the early 20thC hundreds of thousands of people in East Africa were moved off their ancestral lands to create white catttle farms.

      And then there is Scotland. Is it any surprise they know nothing of our wee country and care even less?

    43. Tony Hay says:

      Excuse my language fellow wingers but that clip was a total clusterfuck of an omnishambles if ever there was one. Jeremy Vine surely cant be that thick,the butler,ex glamour model and the thick tory loving journalist are as thick as one would expect. In the future thesis will be written on this media bias and future generations of the children of independence will scarcely believe it.

    44. Cactus says:

      The quickening is coming excellent People of Scotland

      Tis only a matter of TIME

      NOW is the

    45. Brian says:

      When do we get to stop being nice to these Malakas?

      Was in Greece it’s my new fave word.

    46. Cactus says:

      Actually, the quickening is happening right NOW, if you can see it

      It comes in many levels and in many paces n forms

      Don’t you know… I.M.H.F.O.

      It’s yer Indy imminence

      Yer eminence

    47. Cactus says:

      Hey Brian, is it yerself here, do we have previous?

      Did we start ah fire?


    48. Marie Clark says:

      Jeez oh. WTF, ignorance personified. Once I’d picked my jaw off the floor, I can’t decide whether to be mad, or feel sorry for them. Poor deluded self righteous, self entitled eejits of the first water.

      Been me up Scottie, Mr Sulu warp factor 11, get us out of here NOW.

    49. Gary45% says:

      Sorry stomached the first 1min39 seconds, looks like the Britnat arseholes you see sitting in a pub in Benidorm for 9am breakfast.
      ARSEHOLES every one of them.
      Cheer up Jeremy Whine, you were pish on rad2 looks like you are still pish, thank Christ I stopped the licence in 2014.
      No idea who the blonde tarts are, (yesterdays chip wrapper?), as for the cringing squawker sitting lonely in the corner, just stay south love, you’ll fit in well with the numpties.

    50. Morgatron says:

      Currently in Croatia, just showed this to a couple of the guys who work in the hotel me and Mrs M and Jnr are staying in and they were shocked of what they heard regarding what these arse holes assumed the Scots had to offer for their economy. Now , obviously they were well tipped last year for knocking out England in the WC semis ? but even they can see it. They are pathetic, and we need to grow a pair, we are not like them at all.

    51. Hunt with his fish/chips and irn bru,

      Gary Lineker with his tweet after Sco/Eng game

      `Good start for @Lionesses despite a plucky effort from Scotland. That’s how we like our Scots: plucky.`

      and now this racist, ignorant and patronising fricken pish,

      and you have Uncle Jocks like Brown,Murray,Smith,Massie and Ruthie telling us we are a cherished and respected partner in the UK Union,

      they are laughing at us,and after NO vote in 2014 they are quite rightly laughing at us.

    52. msean says:

      FFS.Obviously never seen the pound spent in Croydon video.

    53. Eric the Cheeseman says:

      The exact same thing occurred on The Wright Stuff 5 years ago, with a richly diverse panel made up of expert political commentators including Richard ‘Shoplifter’ Madeley, Katie ‘RacistShitgob’ Hopkins, someone else, and some bloke off of Hollyoaks.

      Same ignorance. Same false information. Same pisspoor opinions.

      Paul ‘I was a butler once’ Burrell says the Queen (who’ll probably be dead in a few years anyway, cos she’s really really old, and humans have a shelf life) will go abroad for her holidays. What, Paul… like, Magaluf?

      His ignorance, sadly, shows yet again the all too regular attitude of “if you leave, we won’t talk to you, trade with you, and you’ll go bankrupt without our jellied eels exports… oh, and geez oor ball back”.

      If that’s how they want to play it, fine. They’re not getting the next Grand Theft Auto game, or our vote in Eurovision.

    54. Cactus says:

      Prop up yer…

      The Westminster is the


    55. Welsh Sion says:

      As an outsider (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) to all this, I’m left completely perplexed as to the (ahem) ‘qualifications’ of these people to spout the views that they did.

      Not only were the comments crass and ignorant, I would argue they were borderline racist, and I’d urge the good folk of Scotland to protest in the loudest possible terms with regard to that – was there not incitement to depreciate the good folk of Caledonia, with the ‘Chair’ giving these non-entities free rein to spout their foul guff?

      We are used to other media allowing the yoon parties to gang up on a single pro-independence politician (usually, SNP), but here there was NO ONE present to rebut the outlandish claims and lies spouted by this assortment of ignorami. Why? And was the audience so selected so no pro-Scotland (never mind pro-indy) voice was heard? Appalling by any measure.

      A previous poster highlighted that this programme could not be identified as any particular kind of genre – ‘light entertainment’ (aka the ‘sport’ of Jock-baiting) or some true insight into political thought dressed up as an examination of current affairs. I agree. The difference appears paper thin.

      But then my fellow poster decries this as ‘wondering … if this is the voice of British morning telly.’ Fair comment.

      But … I have news for you, my friend. Esther McVile started her career some years ago on British morning telly.

      Need we say more?

    56. Kevin Brown says:

      I’m a big fan of his brother Tim Vine.
      Even he would surely cringe at watching this nonsense.

    57. harry mcaye says:

      “And now Carole Malone” click. TV off. A good rule to live your life by.

    58. Cactus says:

      Howde do outsider, ah consider maself the same (in ah cool way)

      Cheers Winger Sion


    59. Dr Jim says:

      Do we think the BBC would *allow* us in Scotland to have a chat show full of people ridiculing England and the English for their stupidity over Brexit, Morris dancing or shows about who’s got the best shed, Dandilion and bloody Burdock, room temperature home brewed beer from badgers gonads, how about the worship of pub games like Skittles or Tiddlywinks, or how about these Numbheads who have collections of bits of war tanks in their back gardens and worship HM the Queen as if she gives a monkeys about any of them while they’re all looking up at her after travelling halfway round their own country to look at the balcony they paid for that she’s standing on patronisingly looking down ON them

      I’m away for a wash

    60. Frank Gillougley says:

      Are we expected to black up now massa, or what?
      – an absolute shocker!

    61. msean says:

      Not one Scot there disagreeing.Imagine being a Scot and listening to that without even a “but…”

    62. Puzzled Puss says:

      If it pleases these people to believe all the rubbish they spout (and they do seem very pleased with themselves) maybe we should just let them go on their merry way. Why should we go to the trouble of contradicting them? Let them go on smugly admiring the wallpaper in their cosy little cocoon. The reality will hit them soon enough.

    63. kapelmeister says:

      Who or what killed the union between Scotland and England? Future historians will ask that.

      We know the butler did it.

    64. galamcennalath says:

      This was broadcast on Channel 5! I don’t think I’ve ever actually tuned into C5. How many people in Scotland would actually see this on TV? My bet would be far more will see the YouTube video now.

    65. Gullaneno4 says:

      Two unknowns and a disgraced butler talk about Scotland and show what a trio of pig ignorant dolts they are.

      Vine to his credit looked embarrassed to have them on.
      Mind you if that is the normal quality of his show, I can’t see it lasting very long.

    66. Effijy says:

      Mindless Bimbos looking down on Scotland as thought its their property and they are our superior masters? FFS.

      Scotland only has massive oil and gas reserves,
      World leading wind and wave technology
      Home of the greatest Commonwealth Games Ever
      People make Glasgow- the world’s friendliest city
      A Scottish Parliament that actually cares about the working classes.
      The UK Largest Export in Whisky at £5 Billion
      2nd largest exports Scottish Foods such as our Fish
      World leading Scientists and research facilities
      World renowned Engineers
      Our own language
      Our own history and heritage
      Breathtaking Scenery
      The purest drinking water
      World’s most efficient Health Service with more treatments per £
      The Home and History of Golf
      Harris Tweed
      Clan Tartans and the Kilt
      Scottish Country Dancing
      Giants in the music industry like Calvin Harris.
      A country that welcomes immigrants.
      A country with free University Education
      A country that negates the Tory Bedroom Tax that attacks the disabled.
      A country that wouldn’t want TV shows with insulting imbeciles trying to give the impression that they actually have an IQ.

    67. Welsh Sion says:

      A joke for Cactus.

      There are two yoon balloons, one red, one blue (the toy variety – not the anti-indy characters, though, on reflection, I guess it doesn’t make much difference. But, I digress …)

      Anyhow, there are these two yoon balloons floating in the desert. The blue one turns to the red one and says:

      “Watch out for that cactusssssssssss …”

    68. Welsh Sion says:

      Oh, btw … Vine has previous …

      So, don’t get *too* sympathetic with him, either, Scotland!

      (We Welshies have subsequently got our on back on him. 😉 )

    69. CameronB Brodie says:

      That’s cultural chauvinism that is, which is a form of racism. Don’t been unkind to these dim twats though, this sense of superiority is part of English culture (see the full-English Brexit). The weather ‘girl’ grew up in Scotland, probably watching the BBC in Scotland, so is unlikely to have a positive opinion of Scotland. And if you only get your world view from the corporate media, you are going to have a narrow and particularly hostile opinion on most things. Cultural difference to Tory party members in particular. That’s how Britain and ‘British’ exceptionalism work.

    70. Bill Hume says:

      Is it not wonderful that people in England actually believe Scotland is too poor to survive without being subsidised by mighty England.

      I know it’s the inevitable result of reading newspapers and watching TV programmes which have been pushing this belief for years in an attempt to convince Scottish voters to back unionist parties.

      The problem for the UKers is that England has bought the lies wholesale and Scotland learned not to believe a word of it.

      Why do I call that wonderful?

      When the inevitable breakup of the UK comes, most of England will just say “let them go”

      Karma can be such a bitch.

    71. kapelmeister says:

      The union withers on the Vine Show.

    72. Legerwood says:


      The Herald reporting tonight that Jeremy Hunt has hinted that there might be a place for Ruth Davidson at the Brexit negotiations.

    73. Muscleguy says:

      I think afer Indy we should put an export duty on Highland Spring water if and only if it is being exported to England. Just because of this.

    74. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      This however is an illustration of the only issue we have to win on. It is that Scotland is a viable self supporting country.
      It actually doesn’t matter that the English believe the utter shite they are fed about Scotland’s viability.
      As long as a majority of Scots are confident that we are self sufficient and viable we will win the referendum.
      Let the English establishment and media believe its own spin.

    75. Cactus says:

      🙂 ~ 🙂 ~ 🙂

    76. dandydons1903 says:

      Who is the tame pet jock on that show? Because whoever she is she is a disgrace.

    77. Geoff Huijer says:

      I genuinely wish I could say ‘unbelievable’.

    78. jfngw says:

      How dare we questions these intellectuals, they know plenty about Scotland. In fact every August they come to Edinburgh for the festival and meet many like minded individuals.

      Jeremy Vine is merely a posh version of Jeremy Kyle, just on to stir controversy, he wants indignation and as many people contacting him in anger as possible. He is a Surströmming performer, a bit like marmite but smellier.

      Never watch it or anything on Ch.5, it’s the Metro of broadcasting.

    79. geeo says:

      Anyone watching Scotland tonight ?

      Keith Brown v Jackson Car crash.

      Question to Jackson: “Given the poll which say 63% of Tory members would sacrifice Scotland to secure brexit, is the Conservative party still a unionist party”?

      Jackson CarCrash replies: “of course it is, actually i think the people who respond in that way to those questions, need to take a good look at themselves …ah..but…i dont know where they get the people that they ask for these questions”!!

      Colin McKay: “Well, they get them from the Tory party”!!!

      Jackson Carcrash (looking puzzled) : “what …the people who they asked the poll of”??

      Colin McKay: “its a poll of conservative party members”

      Keith Brown pishing himself laughing at this point.

      Rev should make this one a feature piece…Poor confused Jackson’s face is priceless !!!

    80. JaMur says:

      How anyone wants to be in union with these pompous horrible fuckpigs is beyond me.

      People of Scotland. Have some respect for yourselfs because these people have zero for you. Scottish yoons included.

    81. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab. That’s the biggest load of shite I have ever seen on the TV.

      Truly, we are a small, far-away nation of which they know nothing, and care even less.

      What it will do to the English when they lose us, and the way we underpin their existence and their sense of English exceptionalism, heaven only knows.

      I predict rioting in the streets, once the reality of the end of the UK bites them.

    82. Petra says:

      Where do they get these people, presenter, panellists and audience, from? Oh right England.

      The BBC, newspapers and their lousy English educational system, whereby 25% of children leave primary school illiterate, seems to have left its mark. You could say it’s a sad situation however their ignorance and belief in the (poor, wee, stupid) myths or propaganda being fed to them make it easier for us to end this Union and that’s all I care about now. I see it as Scotland suffering from a hellish cancer that’s eating it’s way into every part of our mind, soul and body … every aspect of our lives, however curable if surgery is carried out in time and that time is now. Cut off the rot and incinerate it, ASAP.

      Additionally, I can’t believe that Jeremy Vine doesn’t know the score but then again he was seemingly genuinely astounded recently when he was faced with facts about the level of English poverty. Maybe we should think of bombarding him with some data, forwarding him a copy of Stu’s book or sending Robert Peffers south to sort him out. Meanwhile I hope Robbo (10:04pm .. last thread) won’t mind me reposting this on here.


      Now after complaining about the BBC, I reckon that those behind BBC Scotland 9 are attempting to make a decent effort to enlighten the Scots, at long last. For example some programmes broadcast tonight were worth a watch.

    83. HandandShrimp says:

      At least Vine has the decency to be embarrassed. As for the rest.,,FFS!

    84. Dr Jim says:

      The British are insulting and anti everybody who’s not British then if you complain about them doing it they trot out the same line about everybody else being anti English because they enjoy switching their own English Nationality back and forth to the invented *British* Nationality when the occasion suits their argument

      We’re not anti English we’re just anti arshole and if you happen to be English be aware we have arseholes in Scotland too but England has many many more because %percentages%%%

      Remember if England has 10% of their population as idiots that’s more than the entire population of Scotland, so just think what’s outvoting you 10 to 1 Scottish people

      Idiots who think they own countries and have two nationalities they call the same one, and that’s not even counting the fact they also believe they, England Britain are the United Kingdom as well

      Yes England is successful, at convincing their own people of anything that comes out of the mouths of the richest most elite people in the world that they are more important and superior to any other people on the planet

      And they wonder why other countries don’t like it

    85. Dan says:

      Maybe Vine got his misinformation on Scotland from a chat with Mags Curran at that arms dealer dinner a few years back.
      I understand there was a question over whether or not Stairheid Rammy actually attended that function. Either way though, talking to oor Maigrit or talking to an empty chair would probably produce the same level of enlightenment on all things Scottish…

    86. AndyMcKangry says:

      My main thought here though, after throwing polystyrene bricks at the iPad, is what breeks is always going on about. Why are the SNP, of which I am a member, wasting time and energy trying to save England/UK.
      They should, and maybe they are/have been, be exercising our claim of right and sovereignty at the ECJ and the UN.
      England doesn’t want our help. When they say we belong to the UK they really mean we belong to England, they treat us with distain and irreverence. I despair that Scots can ever think that way about our country but a lot obviously still do.
      It’s for the social media generation to make sure this stuff goes viral, cause the MSM will hide it at all costs.
      Engerland and its establishment has never allowed a colony to go peacefully, I worry that history will repeat itself.
      We all have a stake in our country’s future, we need to make sure we all do all we can to make sure we get there in one piece!!!

    87. jfngw says:

      Maybe Jeremy Vine follows KH and believes the graphs are authentic. If he does I suspect he may also use Archie Macpherson as a pension advisor.

    88. robbo says:

      Petra says:
      25 June, 2019 at 11:29 pm

      Meanwhile I hope Robbo (10:04pm .. last thread) won’t mind me reposting this on here.

      Nae drama’s Petra. Just hope someone with analytics background can eat into it and get some juicy bits we can use.

      Pity it didn’t breakdown into Scotland, England, Wales & NI so we could see the real numbers which I desperately like to see and must be out there somewhere.

    89. robert alexander harrison says:

      Thats exactly why im called anti English dr jim because i complain to much about England and its bigoted culture of supremacists and self entitlement ffs which i reject with a vengeance but thats the old English way assimilate or destroy.

    90. TJenny says:

      The wonderful Colin Dunn, aka @Zarkwan, has tweeted Jeremy Vine with several info sheets re Scotland’s resources and not too wee, too poor etc.

      Jeremy tweeted thank you back. Stu tweeted JV, no thank You. 😉

      All grist to the indy mill.

    91. CameronB Brodie says:

      It could also be viewed as a form of symbolic violence, though Vine’s embarrassment suggest that was was not the intention. However, I don’t think these shows go out live. I do think I might have mentioned British nationalism is shite all the way down, once you scratch away the BBC varnish.

      How does being part of a subordinate group affect how we view ourselves? Stages of identity development

    92. GrahamB says:

      Slightly O/T
      “The Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth Games will cost £778m, the government has announced.

      Three-quarters of the public funding for the 11-day event will come from central government, with £184m having to be found by Birmingham City Council.”

      How much central government funding was there for the 2014 Glasgow Commonwealth Games? Hee Haw, it all had to come from Glasgow and SG. Equal and valued partner my arse!

    93. Dr Jim says:

      We live in a hostile environment

    94. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 23:33:

      We’re not anti English we’re just anti arsehole

      Got it in one.

      And that panel was full of them. They don’t have a ghost of a clue how superior, patronising and ignorant they truly are. Never mind the poor old Commonwealth, hoi-polloi the lot of them, how awfully, awfully terrible her Maj would have to be taking her hols in one of those dreadful benighted places.

      It’s actually all about THEM. How scorned and abandoned they are painfully desperate not to be. How dreadfully embarrassing, like getting nul points in Eurovision. Pathetic.

      Terminally annoying they may be, but in the end they don’t matter. It’s our homegrown whingers and cringers who need to take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror, get up off their knees, and join us in giving a good old two-fingered salute to this kind of crassness after we boot it out the door.

    95. Sinky says:

      Btwl Gers charges Scotland £188m a year for joint international services including foreign office services.
      Also Scotland has extracted more oil and gas than Norway. What happened BBC to these potential revenues over last 35 years under Westminster control

    96. Cactus says:

      Yes we do, it’s a wiki-wiki Wednesday NOW

    97. Marcia says:

      The ignornance of those on that TV programme is quite shocking.

    98. robertknight says:

      Better Together?

      Watching that, I’m torn between laughter and tears.

    99. Wee Alex says:

      Whit, can someone get these idiots telt.

      The queen would be upset! After today’s news about millions spent on one house when universal credit is killing people.

      Can we have this on the news, every hour, on the hour. Independence would be guaranteed.

      They just don’t get it.

    100. Dan says:

      Word on the street is that the next time Vine talks aboot Scotchland he’s got Bungle, George and Zippy on the panel to provide a more advanced level of intellect.

    101. Cactus says:

      Q. “How would they remove Balmoral?”

      Q back2u. Kindly identify who the “they” you refer to is here Paul?

      Anyways, all that schizz will be settled laters

      One thing at ah time Scotland like LOVE

      Dinnae jump the bunny aye!

    102. Capella says:

      @ Eric the cheeseman – yes, this is up there with that Richard Madeley and Kate Hopkins sketch of political pundits discussing Scotland’s economic prospects:

      “How can they survive without the The Bank of England! I mean, the clue’s in the name!”

      That audience was entirely redundant. Are they just symbolic of viewers at home? Mute, stolid and vacant.

    103. manandboy says:

      Which part of ‘propaganda war’ does Scottish people not understand? Which country any where, addresses a neighbouring country in the way England treats Scotland, and not be at war, or else pretty close to it.

    104. Petra says:

      Some of the posts on here have me in knots, for one Dr Jim, so thanks for the laugh folks. And of course people like Effijy are to be commended for giving it factual laldy. She along with Robert (P) would most definitely shed the light on a Jeremy Vine show. Give them all a heart attack.


      @ Legerwood at 11:09pm … “Jeremy Hunt hinting that there may be a place for Ruth Davidson in the Brexit negotiations.”

      What a cracker, eh? The FM of Scotland has been sidelined at every turn over the last three years and yet this wee U-turning, lying loser (that few Scots vote for) could find herself sitting spouting her usual egotistical guff and influencing decisions and outcomes. More so might be sitting beside Arlene Foster OO DUP. In saying that Ruth ain’t daft. She’ll avoid any involvement, an expose of herself now, like the plague. Rooth the Mooth seemingly emerged from her cave recently to answer questions on the Chase programme, due to be broadcast soon. I wonder if one of the questions was about Tory dark money? Naw? I’m beginning to lose the will to live, lol. Pray for Johnston to bomb them both out, followed by a GE, Farage spectre, when we’ll bomb them all out. Thank goodness for Nicola Sturgeon not jumping the gun.


      @ Geeo at 11:21pm …… “Jackson Carlaw.”

      I wish I had seen that Geeo, lol. Maybe Stu or whoever will get that on here? Looks as though Ruth has been too busy (e.g. on the Chase programme) to update Deputy Nitwit and he doesn’t actually read the newspapers either. Priceless right enough and well seeing how Nicola Sturgeon could constantly slaughter the ignoramus at FMQ’s week after week. On the other hand was his comment not just word for word in line with Gadafties?

    105. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Dan, howde do bro?

      Let’s all go to the seaside

    106. Cactus says:

      Q. See the character “George” frae Rainbow (wae the extended ayelashes)

      2nd Q. What sex and gender is George?

      Answers welcomed

      Oh Jeffrey!

    107. Petra says:

      Queenie actually owns Balmoral, as Vicky the ultimate exploiter bought it. I’ve also read that she plans to escape England soon, surprise, surprise, and relocate to Scotland. Following Independence no one can stop her, but will she and her ilk be welcome here? As she’s done nought for us as Queen of the Scots, stabbed us in the Continuity Bill back, etc, etc, in fact, I doubt it. Chickens coming home to roost and all of that. We Scots have a long memory. Our short term memories are excellent too.

    108. Calum McKay says:

      Arrogance, ignorance, superiority, entitlement and complete stupidity all in abundance – I’d Suggest this is the next SNP party election broadcast.

      If you were to wrote a comedy sketch, you’d think this had taken the joke too far, as has been said many times you could not make this stuff up.

    109. chicmac says:

      Dr Jim, keep dishing out the medicine. 🙂

    110. Cubby says:

      The real question is will England manage on its own. If these morons are an example of the talent available then we will have large numbers of economic migrants coming north after independence.

      They are so ignorant and thick they don’t even realise it. Vine taking the piss out of his panel and trolling Scotland at the same time.

    111. Ken Clark says:

      Right up there with Richard Madeley standing in for Matthew Wright during the last independence campaign, featuring Ronni Ancona as pet Jock.

      Vine’s pet Jock, Storm Huntley, in an excruciating effort to ingratiate herself with the English audience, once described Nicola Sturgeon as a cross between Mary Doll from Rab C Nesbitt and Susan Boyle.

      Oh how they laughed.

      What is it with some Scots and their cringing lack of self respect?

    112. twathater says:

      Posted this on the previous thread more appropriate here

      twathater says:
      26 June, 2019 at 1:56 am

      Call me Dave @ 9.23 pm thanks for the heads up re Stu’s video I managed to watch it and sorry that I did , what a shower of ignorant twats , Vine acting all concerned , the ahem butler oh yes oil and a monster in a lake , Malone oh yes there are more people against Scottish independence now than there was at the indy referendum , Ma heids ready to explode


      Lochside I agree wholeheartedly as my post upthread would make clear , I contacted by email 35 SNP Msp’s and received 2 replies , 1 stated that I was outwith their constituency the other stated that it was down to SE and was outwith their remit , I never received ANY response at all from the 5 Green MSP’S that I emailed including Whiteman or Greer

      IMO the SNP SG in co-ordination with the Greens should call this application in and consider the damage this carbuncle will cause to this beautiful world renowned scenery

    113. Cubby says:


      Yeh I saw that as well – laughed my head off.

      More seriously Carlaw had no idea of how many children in his own constituency (mine as well) we’re living in poverty. Answer 2245 children. Carlaw also had no idea re foodbank parcels in his own constituency. Why would that be – BECAUSE HE COULDNT CARE LESS.

      Carlaw’s main approach was to tell the people of Scotland that they should do what they are told by Westminster. That of course means you ain’t having your independence. You are not allowed.

    114. John James Boyes says:

      Yes it’s irritating having to listen to ill-informed opinion but I try not to become over-exercised like many who dub these people cretins and the like. In many respects they are no worse than so many of our own voting population who have been brainwashed over many years into believing that we’re too wee etc. Joseph Goebbels truly would have been proud of the job done by the British Establishment.

    115. Breeks says:

      Don’t forget Jeremy Vine is 4th on the list of top earners on the Propaganda Service, quoted at £750k in 2016.

      He won’t be admonished for this crass and ignorant horseshit, this crass and ignorant horseshit is why the BBC employs him.

    116. Dr Jim says:

      Can we cure the disease of superiority

      I just watched some black folk never been out of London talking about how difficult it was for them growing up to feel English because they knew white people resented them over skin colour even though they were born in England so that then at least makes them *British*
      Y’see those folk don’t even know exactly what they think they mean, they thought they were English but they understand they’re not accepted as English but they’re *allowed* to be *British* because they think that means inclusive, then they think they feel happier about that

      You know if they can treat black folk like this and still manage to convince them they’re desperate to become a nationality that was politically invented for power reasons that isn’t actually a Nationality at all what chance does the average Yoon have of understanding what on earth is going on

      *Britishness* is exclusive not inclusive or those black folks would have been accepted as English because that’s where they were born but haven’t seem to notice or feel aggrieved about the obvious overt colour bar that was just put up in their faces

      Up here in Scotland we can plainly see it’s not only a colour bar it’s a nationality bar from wherever you happen to come from in the world or wherever you were born

      You can’t be English unless they say you are, but they’ll let you call yourself British so you think they’re doing you a favour when in fact they’re labelling you as not a real one of them

      Maybe that’s why so many folk in America label themselves as Black American or Italian American or Irish American because they know they won’t ever be accepted as just American

      For God sake they still call original indigenous Americans, *Indians*

      The culture of supremacy is the same and we have some of the same breed of *British* supremacist right here in Scotland

      Maybe one day we’ll discover a vaccine for it, after all Scotland discovered medicines against most every other disease

    117. Scozzie says:

      We’re dooooomed, how will we ever survive????
      Seems like this old trope is gonna get regurgitated again and again. Sadly, there’s still too many Scots who think this way. This really needs debunked once and for all. We need to be in a situation where the population accept that we’re not some basket case and can have a thriving economy with independence.

    118. Graeme says:

      There was a time not so long ago that clip would have me seething with rage, but it looks like I’m beyond that now,

      This may be a bunch of self important nonentities discussing a subject they know fuck all about but it’s a perfect example of the sneering contempt they have for us south of the border and it’s hardly surprising when half our population still want to be enslaved to them

    119. Graeme says:

      Any proud Scots reading this page , watch the video, take it in, listen to them, wallow in the contempt they have for you, they are your people, your fellow English supremacists

      then ask yourself What have I got to be proud of ?, where’s my self respect ?

    120. Socrates MacSporran says:


      Jeremy Vine may well be being paid over £750,000 per year to spout BBC propaganda, but, this show is on Channel Five.

      It’s not just the official British government TV and radio channel which pushes out shite about us, the commercial stations are at it as well. As that clip demonstrates.

    121. Breeks says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:
      26 June, 2019 at 6:42 am

      Jeremy Vine may well be being paid over £750,000 per year to spout BBC propaganda, but, this show is on Channel Five.

      Thanks Socrates.

      I’ve always been puzzled by Vine. The only class and talent with Jeremy Vine is in his agent, achieving so much with so little to work with.

      You can “kinda” see the logic with Chris Evans, even though I don’t really like him and I’d like to taser him live whenever he speaks during a record, (which would be a LOT of good tasering), but Vine has all the charisma and greyness of Spitting Image’s John Major.

      But then again, you see what Vanessa Feltz earns for the chronic ear pain she freely distributes, suddenly even Jeremy Vine doesn’t seem so bad.

    122. Macjim says:

      I sat gobsmacked watching this nonsense… Really, don’t they know we already have devolution? Struth…

    123. Socrates MacSporran says:


      It might be, I am sticking-up for a fellow journalist, but, I do feel, on his excellent Radio Two show, where he is allowed, encouraged even, to be a journalist, asking questions and seeking to establish facts, he is good; certainly as you point-out, a lot better than Feltz.

      However, in the Channel Five show, he is encouraged to be “a personality,” an entirely different ball game, and one where he appears uncomfortable.

      He was, however, born, raised and educated in the Home Counties. His old school, Epsom College, may be a “minor public school,” but, it is an HMC (Headmasters Conference) school, and, as such, we can freely assume Vine has been tainted by “English Exceptionalism.” Though not thankfully to the same degree as Old Etonians such as Boris and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

    124. Willie says:

      Jeremy Vine?

      Is it a plant like the Senna or Cascara that acts like a “ brain laxative “

      Certainly seems so with the shit the presenters come out with. Certainly seems so

    125. Breeks says:

      Petra says:
      25 June, 2019 at 11:29 pm

      Now after complaining about the BBC, I reckon that those behind BBC Scotland 9 are attempting to make a decent effort to enlighten the Scots, at long last. For example some programmes broadcast tonight were worth a watch.

      Are those programs attempting to end the State monopoly on Establishment propaganda and actively promote the devolution of Scottish Broadcasting to Scotland?

      If the answer is no, then it must be treated with the same suspicion as any other BBC disinformation from the rancid Corporation which maybe needs to be a bit more subtle with it’s output now that Scotland is waking up to the decades of chronic indoctrination we’ve suffered. It’s the spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down. And there you go, you of all people Petra, “Aye, look at this! Maybe we can trust the BBC!” … Can ye, Aye?

      I remember Peter Write’s book Spycatcher about Kim Philby, and how an isolated event such as catching a “spy” red handed with a Top Secret file meant absolutely nothing, because “good” intelligence out was often the price paid for better intelligence in. To prove the loyalty or treach-Rey of a spy, you had to audit everything and produce a plus and minus account of intelligence gained versus intelligence sold before you could begin to see who’s “side” your spy was really on.

      Fk your BBC, whether it’s BBC TV, Radio, BBC Shortbread, BBC9, or BBC Bannockburn 1314. If it’s BBC, it’s tainted and should come with non-Governmental health warning that the program may contain malignant disinformation, wilful dishonesty and casual bias.

      I want Scottish Broadcasting of reputable quality and professionalism that can be trusted. Bit like I like my Government too as it happens.

    126. Willie says:

      The smell must be awful in the studio where the record the Jeremy Vine show.

      It’s a wonder you don’t hear the sound of retching due to the stench of shit spouted. But then again so many of our British cousins are so full of shit they may be immune to it.

      Mind you, mushrooms apparently thrive on the stuff. Jeremy Vine, mushroom grower come fertiliser extraordinaire. No wonder he’s so popular down south.

    127. Craig P says:

      Completely off topic, but I was reading about that John Smith Centre for Promoting Trust in Politics and Public Policy.

      Is is really that hard to build trust?

      Politicians: do what you say you will do, and resign when you screw up. Bonus tip: tell us who your donors are.

      Is there something else I am missing here??

    128. Bobp says:

      JaMur11.26pm. I ask myself that every day.

    129. Craig P says:

      Anyway, back on topic.

      Scotland. Net exporter of energy, water, food & drink, financial services, university graduates, with a stable North European location, a massive tourist industry, and plenty cheap land.

      My God, how will they cope?

    130. Bobp says:

      Scozzie 4.49am And without access to a neutral media and TV, to get the truth out. We have an uphill battle on our hands.

    131. jfngw says:

      All broadcasters, except the BBC in some respects as it is directly government financed, are regulated by a UK approved government agency, if they don’t like what you broadcast then they will remove your licence. Don’t expect any neutral broadcasting in Scotland, Westminster controls it.

    132. Ken500 says:

      Why are the viewers comments left out.

      It is just a wind up for money. The programme survives on viewer participation and adverts. More viewers clicked etc. = More revenues. Lie and offend enough people with some ignorant views. More people respond and it creates a greater revenues stream.

      Just offensive click bait. Like Jeremy Kyle. Now banned for harming people. Self harming. Madeley had to apologise. Just complete ignorance. Do not watch it. Few viewers.

      Jeremy Vine is pathetic but racking it in an excessive prima donna. Just another pathetic liar. Including a massive BBC salary and expenses. Another lying tax evader. Trying to cause controversy for money and gain. Annoying people.

      Storm does does sometimes stick up for Scotland but on this occasion was deliberately prevented. For more revenue gains. She was a child TV presenter. From Scotland. Made in Scotland? Still is doing child programme presenting? She went for a few years (5/6) to Gordonstoun.

    133. Ken500 says:

      Difficult to access Wings website, today? Had to access through Wings twitter site. Click on last website comment on the right.

    134. Ken500 says:

      On the internet Wings gets a lot of publicity. Including from other sources. MSM articles/comments etc.

    135. Ian says:

      This type of nonsense is notable for the lack of any factual information. But then that’s exactly what they don’t want people to know. A key measure of the health of anywhere is it’s imports/exports balance.

      Scotland is the only part of the UK with a large export surplus over imports & one that is growing by far the fastest. The figures for England are scary.

    136. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 12.34 am

      Something else to as Ms Davidson about – the 2 child cap policy.

      Report in today’s Guardian about its effect – increasing child poverty, strain on families, women contemplating termination etc.

      She said it would/could be reviewed. Time to ask her when that review is going to happen.

    137. Republicofscotland says:

      Jeez oh, that lot are totally uninformed as to Scotland’s position right now, and unaware that Scotland is big enough, smart enough and rich enough to leave this awful union.

      A nice touch there asking a few House Jocks, if Scotland could survive as a independent nation.

    138. winifred mccartney says:

      Just proof if any needed they know nothing about Scotland and are in for a big shock when we do leave. Vine should have been at least a bit informative but that would never do, better tv when allowed to denigrate Scotland.

    139. Robert Peffers says:

      An entire TV studio and not two brain cells between them to cause a solitary synapse.

    140. chicmac says:

      Maybe Jeremy picked up his brother’s latest spoof routine instead of the intended programme guidelines on his way to work?

    141. Macart says:

      Yep. Makes for some pretty appalling viewing.

      A heady mix of arrogance, ignorance and a bucket load of condescension thrown in for good measure. Clocked that on twatter last night and just… Well. What can you say? Almost five years on and they’ve learnt the square root of hee haw.

      Also. Who knew?

    142. Breeks says:

      Back in 2014, just after YES “lost”, the Unionists had promised Scotland and committed themselves to devolving an ambiguous phenomenon of “more powers” to Scotland, and yet, because there was no media scrutiny to speak of, every Unionist held a different opinion on what “more powers” meant. Subsequently, it was established it actually meant nothing. They were just weaselly words which the Unionist Establishment wormed out of, and were allowed to worm out of.

      What we should have done, was to hold an emergency Plebiscite in October/November 2014, after the No vote, to invite the sovereign people of Scotland to articulate which powers the Scottish electorate actually wanted to see returned to Scotland, and give the return of those powers a sovereign mandate. Had the UK Establishment been obliged to concede, our Scottish Broadcasting Network would now be 4 years old. Just think about that. And had the UK Establishment rejected the Scottish Plebiscite, then fine, … we would have secured a Constitutional Test Case to break the back of the Union in 2014/15.

      In a parallel universe where Scotland had a bit more fire in its belly, Scotland could have taken control of Broadcasting by sovereign, democratic mandate in 2014, and then at least, we might have salvaged something important and worthwhile from the shambles of a referendum stolen from us by a corrupt UK Establishment.

      Yes, I know, it’s all academic, coulda, woulda, shoulda stuff now, (although it wasn’t at the time), but nevertheless, we are where we are. Foresight is a wonderful thing in hindsight.

      Ultimately, as is the way in most competitive situations, victory goes to the side which wants it the most. The bitter irony of our situation in Scotland is that an unscrupulous Union prepared to cheat, lie, smear, indoctrinate, induce with promises of ermine, titles and wealth arguably does want its Union that much more than an Independence movement which seems a little more ambivalent about it, and seems content to drift its way towards a possible referendum on the prevailing current, but only if the signs look good, at some foggy stage sometime in the future, and it would appear with seeming indifference towards Scotland’s Sovereign Constitutional legitimacy.

      At the risk of upsetting some delicate souls in the world of transgender political correctness, if Scotland actually wants to be an Independent Nation, it had better “man-up” get off its knees and start acting like a sovereign Nation which you don’t want to fk with.

      Brexit in October will be an unconstitutional OUTRAGE, and let’s hope that in the next 126 days BEFORE the end of October, that Scotland can rekindle a 300 year old sense of what it feels like to be a Nation which actually stands up for itself.

    143. Dan says:

      @Ian at 10:11 am

      Yep, I recall reading an article in relation to the UK exiting the EU that highlighted England’s resource to population ratio is shocking.
      But that’s what you end up with if you have consecutive governments that over the years have effectively trashed so many different industries.
      It’s something like 60% of the food we eat in the UK is actually produced here, and 40% imported with a lot of that coming from within the EU.
      We have a huge deficit in fruit and veg and it will be very difficult to negate this issue in the short time-frame of either a transition period or no deal crash out.

      My mitigation efforts of developing my own veg garden and assisting in a very small capacity at the local community farm have highlighted to me firsthand just how much effort it takes to produce food in a sustainable way, when compared to big agri practices which are heavily tied in with corporate interests and control.

    144. Dr Jim says:

      With support now showing at 56% for Scottish Independence Unionists are shouting louder that nobody wants it and there’s no support for it which to me is clear evidence that it’s probably a lot more than the 56% they’re admitting to

      So they wheel out Gordonzilla to frighten the horses with his latest wheeze that he calls *Extreme Independence* whatever he wants folks to think that’s supposed to mean, we do know that it has something to do with Hadrians wall though because he’s again telling anyone who’ll listen that the SNP plan to invade England in order to get it, or he’s just a complete idiot who’s forgotten that Hadrians wall isn’t in Scotland, not one inch of it

      Maybe the powers that be think because Gordonzilla speaks with a Scottish accent that makes him officially Scottish therefore the same as us so we’ll listen and obey

      See you can paint stripes on a Donkey but that still won’t make it a Zebra because the other Zebras will sniff it out as a fake

      Isn’t that right fellow Zebras

    145. geeo says:

      Mark Francois, resident Tory zoomer and hardcore ukexit rocket launcher, trying to argue trade arrangements with an international trade negotiator on Sky News.

      Francois: we could set the tariffs at zero if we want, then sort trade deals later”

      Expert: “why would another country sign a trade deal when they can trade with no tariffs on importing uk goods? Infact, they could put tariffs on their exports TO the uk as they are already importing stuff FROM uk tariff free”

      Francois: “ at all”

      Expert: “i do this for a living”

      Francois loves Boris the Buffoon, maybe make him international trade minister…(hahahaha)

      Thank feck we have an escape route !!

    146. Corrado Mella says:

      I love when the hoi polloi talk out of their arse.

      It will be more the sweeter when they find fuel (any kind, included kindling), electricity and water will cost twice in England than in Scotland.

      As per the Queen, her G&T will be very bitter.

      Anyhoo, that’s nothing else than projection.

      Deep down England knows that, after the Thatcher deindustrialization and Beeching’s butchering of the railways they’ve got nothing left, while 1/10th of the population of “their” UK “up norf” has abundance of any natural resource you can think of.

      The reckoning will sober up millions of unwittingly ignorant people.

      Love the thought of the new “woke” English folk hunting down BritNazi politicians.

    147. Robert Peffers says:

      @Marie Clark says: 25 June, 2019 at 10:35 pm:

      ” … Poor deluded self righteous, self entitled eejits of the first water.”

      Don’t be surprised, Marie and don’t be upset at their ignorance for history, as always, is about to repeat itself. It was Wee Scotland that led Europe into, “The Enlightenment”. Of which the great Voltaire said this well known quote:-

      “We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation”.

      There is, though, a less well known quotation by Voltaire that goes:-

      “Injustice in the end produces independence.”,, and that one has taken far too long to happen.

      I believe wee Scotland is just about ready to lead Europe into the next, “European Enlightenment”, and this coming new enlightenment just may pass England by.

    148. chicmac says:


      Not to mention the fact that Scotland produces twice as much electricity per head as England, Scotland produces a plank of wood per head per day whereas in England barely enough to make an old school ruler, higher tourism earnings per head, higher entertainment software per head, higher stone and cement production per head etc.etc.

      England has put all its eggs (if they had any) into one basket (if they made any) in the belief that their dodgy financial ‘service’ sector will continue to bail them out and that brexiting will avoid the new tax evasion and anti-money laudering laws in the EU. That is a mistaken belief.

      It is not a basket after all but a piñata and with a very large queue for sticks.

    149. David P says:

      A couple of wingers mentioned a clip on itn last night where the hunt suggested that his brexit negotiating team could include representatives from the dup, the erg, Scottish tories and Welsh tories. I saw it too and thought the proposal “interesting”… Where “interesting” means “gob-smackingly anti-democratic and entirely disrespectful to the devolved administrations”.

      Does anyone have the capability of creating a screen grab of this?

      And/or an archive to the related article in today’s herald?

      And a big thanks to everyone who has posted links to positive Scottish economic data, all of which is very useful. It will be filed away for future use.

    150. Dan says:

      @Dr Jim

      Here’s the best way to view anything Gordon Brown related. Speed up the footage and put it to a 2min tune so you don’t have to prolong the pain of watching or listening to any of his Yakety Yak pish!

      Alternatively que up some Guns and Roses and sing along to drown out his waffle.

    151. Legerwood says:

      Dan @ 10.47 am

      A way back in the 19th century Andrew Carnegie said that Britain would become an overcrowded island unable to feed itself. He was right.

      I think you are being a bit generous with the 60:40 split between homegrown and imported food. I think it is around 50:50 at best and in some categories of foodstuffs such as fruit and veg and cheddar cheese imports predominate.

      In areas where homegrown production has been increased, eg soft fruit such as strawberries, that increased production depends in large part on a ready supply of labour and Brexit puts that at risk – big time.

      As you say if you have an allotment or vegetable patch of any description you quickly realise how much effort is required and how weather dependent the whole process is. Unfortunately the days when everyone had part of their garden given over to vegetables etc are long gone with the result that a lot of people are totally out of touch with where our food comes from and how much is involved in producing it.

      They may be in for a shock quite soon.

    152. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Extreme independence”? Is that like “Extremely pregnant”?

    153. Scott says:

      As it has been said before the question should be could England survive on its own,as an aside I have emailed Burrell to have a look at the McCrone report mind you it wont make any difference to that lot as for Malone she just likes to hear herself speak.

    154. chicmac says:

      If France had the same population density as England its population would be over 220 milliion.

    155. Proud Cybernat says:

      Remember the Irish backstop problem. I remember reading on Wings that particular thorn long before the London MSM had even heard of it. That’s how clued up they were on NI and how it would come to put a big spike in their Brexit plans. They didn’t see it coming at all until SPLAT – [that’s the shit hitting the fan there].

      Just weren’t clued up about anywhere in the UK outside their wee London bubble.

      It’s the exact same with Scotland. Haven’t a fecking clue.

    156. Capella says:

      Obviously nobody in that studio has a clue about Scotland’s economic position. These “chat shows” never do invite anyone on with an ounce of common sense who might challenge the orthodoxy that Scotland is TPTWTS.

      In 2014, a couple of shows made the mistake of inviting someone knowledgeable such as Robin McAlpine or Ivan McKee. The shock was palpable. Fun to watch but a never-to-be-repeated experience.

    157. jfngw says:

      @David P

      Jeremy Hunt is just taking over from where Theresa May left off, he is only going to consult with those that already agree with him. Can’t see any better outcome for him than his predecessor, he will unite the nation by ignoring the majority outside England.

      Who would have thought it would end up easier to leave the USSR than the UK. Probably quite a few I suspect that know how the tentacles of the UK government works and their desire for other countries resources. After all that’s why the were so rich in the past, plundering and extraction for the reward of a few baubles.

    158. Dr Jim says:

      The UK English British media are all crowing and complaining about China being the biggest polluter while at the same time being the biggest investor of renewable energy, and they’re doing it as if they. the UK are somehow so much morer and betterer than China, but they fail to mention that they, the UK of Britains England are the biggest polluters right here but keep counting Scotland’s success in renewables in with their own to make their own figures look not as bad as they are therefore claiming success

      It’s a bit like Andy Murray the Scot winning Wimbledon immediately becomes British but if he loses *the Scot crashes out* so they don’t have to count it as *British* failure then

    159. Cubby says:

      With regard to Broadcasting in Scotland it’s perhaps worth repeating what I have posted before. The control of the media/broadcasting was in the original devolution bill back in the late 90’s. It makes sense if considering devolution in a sensible manner. Labour MPs at the last moment pulled this devolved power and left the SNP in the politically difficult position of changing their mind about supporting devolution/ Scot parliament or accepting it. Britnat Labour obviously did not want to give up control of their propaganda vehicles.

      Fast forward to the vow/Smith commission – the SNP should have dug their heels in and insisted on the media being devolved. It was after all in the initial draft bill in the 90s.

    160. schrodingers cat says:

      ignorant havers based of bleery eyed nastalgia that never happened.

      the only part that was given any credibility was the polling results. this is the last bastion of the unionist scoundrels.

      this is why the unionists are dreading the inevitable ge, it will finally put to sword the idea of any tory comeback/victory

    161. wullie says:

      godon bwoun bwitish jobs faw bwtrish wehkehs, that letter RRRRR must sicken him

    162. Meindevon says:

      Ian @ 10.11am

      Thanks for that link to imports and exports for all the ‘Regions’ of the U.K in very up-to date figures. .

      Very, very interesting.

      Not one English region exports more than it imports. It also showed (if I’m reading it right) that England is not Scotland’s main exporter/importer. It would appear to be the Netherlands for exports and Norway for imports. So after years of being told England is our biggest trading partner that is actually false?

      Perhaps Mr Vine and the Scottish Tories should have a look.

    163. Robert Peffers says:

      @John James Boyes says: 26 June, 2019 at 2:40 am:

      ” … Joseph Goebbels truly would have been proud of the job done by the British Establishment.”

      Just so as you will know in future, John James, Joseph Goebbels, is on record as saying he learned all his propaganda tricks from the British/UK government. In fact the English expulsion of the Jews also long predates the Holocaust:-

      “The Edict of Expulsion was a royal decree issued by King Edward I of England on 18 July 1290 expelling all Jews from the Kingdom of England. Edward advised the sheriffs of all counties he wanted all Jews expelled by no later than All Saints’ Day (1st November) that year. The expulsion edict remained in force for the rest of the Middle Ages. The edict was not an isolated incident, but the culmination of over 200 years of increased persecution. The edict was overturned during the Protectorate more than 350 years later, when Oliver Cromwell permitted Jews to return to England in 1657.”

      BTW: Many Jews came to Scotland and there have been Jewish families established in, particularly, Glasgow and Edinburgh for many centuries.

      The BBC was the World’s first Government funded wireless propaganda service and the BBC World Service has remained the World’s largest propaganda broadcaster to this day.

      Furthermore the concept of, “Concentration Camps”, was a Westminster Government invention.

      Joseph Goebbels learned all he knew from the Westminster Government and the Westminster funded Worldwide BBC propaganda service. The BBC is still the largest propaganda service the World has ever known.

      BTW: The idea that Joseph Goebbels and the NAZIs were the inventers of all these things is, – yes you’ve guessed it – Westminster propaganda.

    164. Hamish100 says:

      Poor coverage over the prejudice shown to our First Minister by the so-called Fireign Minister. Are we surprised?


    165. McBoxheid says:

      Ken500 says:
      26 June, 2019 at 9:53 am

      Storm does does sometimes stick up for Scotland but on this occasion was deliberately prevented.

      Well said Ken. J.Vine shut her up. He is complicit in propogating such sentiment. He said “I’m not going to bring you in on this. I know you’re impartial.”

      A serious question though. Is there actually a live audience in the studio? Not a peep of noise from anyone. Every audience generates noise. Even if its just yawns of boredom, or sighs of disbelief, or people shifting in the seats, snoring, etc. The intro clip shows a much larger audience clapping loudly, but come the question, 12 people are shown, all looking at each other and no-one saying a thing.

      The butler is absolutely clueless. He knew nothing at all about Scotland. He thought Scotland was seeking to gain devolution. He even had to ask for help when coming up with oil and oh, a monster in a lake.

    166. Hamish100 says:


    167. Effijy says:

      Effijy says:
      25 June, 2019 at 11:01 pm
      Mindless Bimbos looking down on Scotland as thought its their property and they are our superior masters? FFS.

      Scotland only has massive oil and gas reserves,
      World leading wind and wave technology
      Home of the greatest Commonwealth Games Ever
      People make Glasgow- the world’s friendliest city
      A Scottish Parliament that actually cares about the working classes.
      The UK Largest Export in Whisky at £5 Billion
      2nd largest exports Scottish Foods such as our Fish
      World leading Scientists and research facilities
      Alexander Fleming- Penicillin
      Joseph Lister- Pioneer of Antiseptics
      John Logie Baird- TV
      Alexander Graham Bell- The Telephone
      Charles rennie MacKintosh-Architect, Designer and Painter.
      James Watt- The Steam Engine
      James Clerk Maxwell founder of Quantum Physics.
      Lord Kelvin- Formalised the Laws of Thermodynamics
      Joseph Black -Chemist. The Father of Quantitative Chemistry.
      Thomas Telford- World leader in Civil Engineering.
      Robert Stevenson- Engineer
      Adam Smith- Father of Economics
      Sir Thomas Lipton -Entrepreneur
      Andrew Carnegie -Philanthropist
      John Boyd-Orr- Nobel Peace Prize Winner
      Robert Watson-Watt- Invented Radar.
      John Boyd Dunlop- Invented the Pneumatic Tyre.
      Robert Adam- Architect
      Our own language
      Our own history and heritage
      Breathtaking Scenery
      The UK’s only Snow Ski Slopes
      The purest drinking water
      World’s most efficient Health Service with more treatments per £
      The Home and History of Golf
      Andy and Jamie won the Davis Cup for England
      Andy Murray-Greatest ever UK Tennis Player Wimbledon and Olympics
      Sir Alex Ferguson the World’s best football manager.
      Sir Chris Hoy- Most Cycling Gold Medals.
      Graeme Obree- World Record Holder Cyclist
      Eric Liddell- Runner
      Jackie Stewart- Formula 1.
      Calvin Harris- Music Mega Star
      Annie Lennox – Musician and Human Rights Activist
      Elsie Inglis- Suffragist and Surgeon.
      The UK’s best Comedian- Billy Connolly
      Harris Tweed
      Clan Tartans and the Kilt
      Scottish Country Dancing
      Giants in the music industry like Calvin Harris.
      A country that welcomes immigrants.
      A country with free University Education
      A country that negates the Tory Bedroom Tax that attacks the disabled.
      A country that wouldn’t want TV shows with insulting imbeciles trying to give the impression that they actually have an IQ.

      There we have it. How could a Nation with citizens of this calibre and natural resources ever compete with Mr Vines intellectual English Bimbos?

    168. chicmac says:

      Came across this post of mine from the naughties, just before the banking crisis.

      Someone on a forum asked if the falling bank share prices had bottomed out? and was it time to buy? He got many affirmatives, some from self described ‘experts’. This was my response:


      This is not a ‘normal’ boom and bust cycle.
      This is not going away any time soon.

      This a consequence of unfettered capitalism and the lunatic ‘policy’ of globalisation fronted by Reagan and Thatcher and carried on by Bush, Blair and Brown. But these ‘leaders’ were just mere puppets.

      The ‘captains of industry’, most of whom are unable to chart a course beyond next month’s balance sheet, sought only two things:

      1) To run after the lowest available wage bill using workers with no rights in China.

      2) To create a Global market place whereby they could maximise profit.

      In order to pursue these policies, Western leaders of gullibility or criminality or just plain bonkers were connived into place and the required trade deals and other changes made.

      Whether they were incapable of understanding the consequences of blindly pursuing those policies on the stability of the World economy, on the stability of World peace or on the environment or whether they simply did not care doesn’t really matter, the chickens are coming home to roost.

      Huge sectors of manufacturing have headed East to the slave prisons and low wage resource of China. Lovely balance sheet – problem is the loss of manufacturing jobs in the West.
      But never mind eh? We can all service each others jacksies and those nice Easterners will pay us handsomely for our ‘services’ too, right?

      Does anyone really believe that once China had most of the manufacturing industry that they were going to hand money back to the West for ‘services’ they could easily provide for themselves in order that we can buy goods from them?

      And look at the effect this has had on the environment. China is very nearly 100% coal burning for its electricity production. So goods once made in Europe where a high percentage is nuclear, hydro, wind etc. are now being made using coal. Not only that, but because of the cheaper prices for goods due to the artificially low labour costs, we are using far more, changing and discarding far more often. Meanwhile our idiotic and/or dishonest Western leaders crow about GGE reductions in their country which are largely due to reduced manufacturing when the relocation of that manufacturing is actually resulting in a massive increase in Global pollution.

      And the new, as yet in its infancy, affluence all that manufacturing is creating in China has already, even at their low GDP pc, put pressure on food and oil prices World wide.

      Now I am certainly not against China being capitalised and their standard of living raised to Western levels but China is quite a different kettle of fish from the other Pac Rim capitalisations of the past. Quite aside from human rights issues, the difference in scale is huge and way beyond anything the World economy can ‘ride out’ as per it did for Japan, Korea, Taiwan etc. this needs to be done in a controlled manner which does not create destructive instabilities.

      For a start, to create the basics of a level playing field, workers there should have normal workers’ rights. The environment should be protected by insisting on clean coal burning technology.

      From the capitalists’ point of view the extra costs involved in those measures would make China less attractive and that would have slowed things naturally and in a constructive way.
      However, the Chinese government was certainly never going to put these measures in place voluntarily.

      Foreign investors would have had to insist on them but that would have required what amounts to a UN backed investment policy which would never have flown.

      Anyway, capital has probably already accrued in China beyond the critical mass required to self-fund its own expansion, which, although perhaps at a lower rate, is still way fast enough to continue to destabilise the World economy and environment.

      The introduction of capitalism to the other Pac Rim countries was not without its problems for World economic stability in the past but those bumps, although large, were rideable until their wage rates approached Western levels which restored balance, halted the drain on manufacturing and even reversed it in some areas.

      However, the same thing cannot be done with China it is simply far too big. Development there has to be controlled. The World economy would simply not survive a 20 year timescale expansion of China from zero to Western levels as seen in other Pac Rim countries. China is like ten Japans rolled into one. Also Japan was largely nuclear so there was not the environmental consequences historically either.

      Demand on food and fuel will continue to increase, the West will stay in recession and unemployment will continue to grow until,… someone points out “Wait a minute just a couple of decades back Europe and America grew all it needed to eat and produced all the goods it needed as well. Why can’t we go back to that?” And so trade tariffs and a degree of isolationism will inevitably need to return which will enable the West to get back to similar standards of living they enjoyed previously (provided we stay cosy with Russia for oil and gas). But the interim will be grim, and sadly NOT just for the Gadarine swine parasites of the City or Wall Street.

      And we are talking at least 5 years before that can be fully implemented. So that is how long I expect things to keep going down.

      Oh there will be normal boom and bust cycles driven by domestic policies in countries superimposed over the downward trend, sometimes even hinting that things are on the way back up, but always the underlying trend will be down until a viable Western manufacturing base is restored.

      One lesson that should be learned is that a roughly equitable geographical spread of manufacturing base is a requirement for World stability and needs to be maintained by sensible trade agreements.

      Although this may entail local subsidy to counter exchange rate differences, to ensure efficiencies are still market driven, there should be no local monopolies allowed and fixed and equal support for all local competitors.

      Strategic controls need to be overlayed over the investment process. (e.g. min. hold time limits etc.)

      The other lesson that should be learned once and for all is the difference between wealth [i]creation[/i] and wealth [i]acquisition[/i].

      How often do we hear in Scotland how much wealth is ‘generated’ by London and the SE? In point of fact they are very very poor at generating wealth on a pro rata basis.

      Wealth is simply the things we use in life. Food, fuel, clothes, cars, shoes, TVs, fridges, microwaves, computers etc.etc.etc. The generation of wealth entails, mining, drilling, growing, manufacturing, fishing, hunting etc. etc. etc.

      The invention of money made exchange of wealth easier, however it also brought an inherent problem. Through various mechanisms e.g. speculation, ‘service’ charges, exchange rates etc. it is possible to [i]accrue[/i] money without actually [i]generating[/i] wealth.

      The general effect of this on ethical values can be bad enough, but when those who indulge in some of even the more primarily wealth [i]accruing[/i] practices equate them to wealth [i]generation[/i] the delusion has become pathogenic.

      Wealth acquisition is not wealth generation, doesn’t matter how clever or devious the particular little scam someone may have thought up to accrue wealth is, it just isn’t.

      And whereas a parasitic micro-economy may be tolerated in a host nation (with the complicity of the Government, say), when such self-delusion leads to notions that the entire Western economy can be likewise based, with the East generating nearly all the wealth, the plot has been well and truly lost. When parasites grow to a size similar to their host, there is a problem.

      It will take 5 years before things turn around but the lessons, if learned, will be beneficial in the longer term.


    169. mike cassidy says:

      I wonder if Glasgow University shudders at the thought Storm Huntley is one of their politics/economics graduates.

    170. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scozzie says:26 June, 2019 at 4:49 am:

      ” … We need to be in a situation where the population accept that we’re not some basket case and can have a thriving economy with independence.”

      Have you any idea how long I’ve been preaching that very thing, Scozzie?

      Since when I was still in secondary education and that was in the late 1940s/early 1950s. That’s over 70 years in all. It sure as hell has been a long uphill job and it isn’t done yet.

      Mind you Westminster has kept moving the goalposts back and forward while changing the commentary from their Westminster pundits. The first figures I can remember using were those for the export of electric power.

      The old coal fired Portobello Power station sat in the Lothian/Fife coalfields and the very first cross-border national grid cable ran from there over the border into England. Scotland has exported electric power ever since.

      This was followed by the 1950s hydro electric generator schemes. Over the past few years Scotland has annually exported over 25% of her electric power to England and N.I. Then there is the National Grid Connection charges scam whereby Westminster charges electricity generators more for every kilowatt added to the grid the further from London the generator is situated – then comes the double whammy – they also subsidise the southernmost generators, in and around London, by paying them for every kilowatt they add to the grid.

      So trying to get suchlike information out to the public is very much akin to bashing your head on the wall. It hurts very much but it’s awful nice when you stop.

      Factually the Scottish per capita GDP is normally higher than the English per capita GDP, (or the rest of the UK), and that means every Scot on average contributes more to the UK economy than ever other person in England or in the rest of the UK as a whole.

      Note: The definition of per capita GDP. is – “Total gross domestic product divided by the total population of a given area”; it is a true measure of economic well-being of that given area.

    171. Jack Murphy says:

      Wings Over Scotland should have provided a Helpline number for those who may be upset or distressed by this TV programme.

    172. chicmac says:


      GDP per capita is a better indicator than national GDP but GDP PPP per capita is even better.

      BTW most of the rules for estimating GDP PPP were devised and written by our very own Cuthberts (thanks iScot).

      I still await someone to devise a genuine wealth creation index.

    173. chicmac says:


      Heh, heh!

      Reading that last post, I see too late, that it could be read as implying GDP or GDP PPP were not genuine indexes of wealth.

      What I meant was, ‘Genuine wealth’ as the things we use in life as mentioned in my long post above.

      I would like to see stats which calculated how much ‘genuine wealth’ is created per capita for each country.

      That way, it would be a lot easier to see which countries are being ripped off and which ones are accruing high monetised equivalents of wealth ratio to the genuine wealth they actually create.

    174. Joe says:

      This is an example of why nationalism is rising throughout Europe. Not just Scotland.

      You have out of touch, clueless mouth pieces of a corrupt establishment (most mainstream media) basically telling ordinary people that they are fkd without their Big Idea (yes that includes the U.K, the E.U and the U.N). While ordinary people face no real increase in living standards for decades, have to bail out criminal banking interests (no criminal cases) by burdening themselves and their children with government debt. Having their children get killed, injured or psychologically damaged in illegal wars that are factually acknowledged to be based on lies (again with no trials) to suit a certain non muslim middle eastern state and big energy interests. Productive jobs go to China and other countries where workers rights mean nothing, aided and abetted by the same western capital interests mentioned above to exploit it and tell us how the future will never be as prosperous as it should be and selling us the cheap crap made by slave labour that replaced our own jobs. All the while we need to accept whatever rancid pieces of ‘Progressive’ decadence is deemed suitable while calling arguments ‘hate speech’ and censoring people who step out of line and blocking banking services for ‘right wing’ nationalist hate mongers.

      All the while we are told that we are just uninformed, ignorant or even hateful when we reject this narrative. We are, as Hillary Clinton (well payed friend of the Banking establishment and abuser of government power) put it: The Deplorables.

      Honestly – someone who doesnt feel even a little bit hostile to the crap that’s fed to them on TV is an empty drone of a human being. Or simply thick.

    175. Giving Goose says:

      Why is Scottish Rugby appointing Tavish Scott to be it’s head of external affairs when Tavish doesn’t even believe in Scotland and has absolutely no interest in the advancement of Scotland or the people who live here?

      Perplexed at the sheer hypocrisy of the man and Scottish Rugby.

    176. call me dave says:

      Former Lib Dem leader Tavish Scott to quit Holyrood

      Wrong kind of balls in Holyrood! 🙂

    177. stewartb says:

      chicmac @1:57 pm

      Given your interest in stats on ‘genuine wealth’ creation, the approach being led by the UN Environment Programme, although not a simple or direct answer to your ‘want’, may still be of relevance/interest.

      UN Environment Programme (2018) ’INCLUSIVE WEALTH REPORT, 2018’ ( )

      “The Inclusive Wealth Report (IWR) is a biennial effort led by UN Environment to evaluate national capacities and performance in terms of measuring economic sustainability and well-being.”

    178. Bobp says:

      How could any self respecting proudscotbut watch that and not even feel a sense of annoyance at the contempt they are held in? It’s way beyond me. Just what will it take?

    179. Jedburgh says:

      What is it about the name Jeremy ?- Vine, Hunt,Kyle, Corbyn and Clarkson feel free to add others.

    180. Col says:

      I read not so long ago that the EU were bringing in rules which would mean governments would have to show how each region was doing economically. Basically Westminster would be forced to open the books. I think this could actually be a bigger reason for brexit than tax dodging and we all know exactly why on this site!

    181. Hamish100 says:


      The national awareness in Scotland is quite distinct from that of England, Espana and the USA.

      Surprised you term “nationalism” all under the one heading.

      The social democratic and inclusive kind – Scotland and the exclusive right wing racist type- take your pick.

    182. Marie Clark says:

      Aw naw, who let Broon oout the crypt again for another broontervention.

      What is this “Extreme Nationalism” that he is bumping his gums the gither about. I don’t recognise this at all.

      Most of us want the best for our country and it’s inhabitants. The government that WE VOTED FOR, ( not imposed from a foreign country), who will make choices on our behalf. Choices that suit the people of our country, not choices for darn sarf. The right to make all of our own decions, on health, education, nuclear enegry, Trident, wars to get involved in ( none hopefully. etc.

      That’s not “extreme”. It’s what is called normal for any country. Where’s the problem with that.

    183. Hamish100 says:

      Scottish rugby and Tavish Scott. – well known unionism wrapped in a saltire – for profit reasons.

      Go over the patronage of the NTS, Universities, Scottish Rugby and the like and you will see the establishment at work appointing each other’s pals onto senates/ boards. Give them 5 years and another wee gong is on their way from HM Queenie for services rendered.

    184. Sarah says:

      @ Jedburgh at 3.10: Leader of Liberal Party Jeremy Thorpe! Another very fine example. And yet I continued to vote for them [in England, mostly, which is some small justification].

    185. Capella says:

      @ ian 10.11 – I’ve tried to access the UKtrade info pages you linked to several times but unfortunately the page “times out” and won’t load. I’ll keep on trying. If no luck, can anhyone post the basics for info. Thx

    186. Welsh Sion says:

      Jedburgh 3.10 pm
      Sarah 3.26 pm

      1. How could you forget Paxo and his anti-Celtic jibes?

      2. The Guscott – who in typical English exceptionalism is full of himself and his national rugby team.

      3. Then there’s the longer with us, but the arch-joker (usually causing distress to those who suffered from his pranks), Jeremy Beadle.

      The list is not exhaustive.

    187. Jack Murphy says:

      Re Jeremy Hunt’s decision to withdraw logistical support from Scotland’s First Minister on her overseas visits—-this is a decision by the UK Government and it’s Prime Minister Theresa May who incidentally was answering Prime Minister’s Questions today in the Commons.

      Hunt is her serving Foreign Secretary in that government and David Mundell is her Secretary of State for Scotland in that same government.

      All would have been told of the Foreign Secretary’s [Hunt] decision

      May’s Cabinet and all who serve in it stand at the Bar of History.

    188. wullie says:

      same here with the UKtrade info pages times out will not load

    189. Welsh Sion says:

      Capella @ 3.32 pm

      (I hope this works).

      Highlights from the page you’re trying to access:

      Year end Q1 2019

      Country Comparison (prev. year)


      Exports: £342.6bn +3.5% on prev. yr.

      Imports: £492.1bn +4.9% on prev. yr.


      Exports: £251.9bn +3.0%

      Imports: £394.5bn +5.8%


      Exports: £17.7bn +7.5%

      Imports: £18.6bn +7.4%


      Exports: £32.8bn +12.9%

      Imports: £25.4bn +3.2%

      Northern Ireland

      Exports: £9.0bn +4.4%

      Imports: £7.9bn +4.9%

      Note: United Kingdom figures include trade that cannot be allocated to a region.

      Key points

      In the year to March 2019, the value of UK trade in goods exports increased by 3.5 per cent and imports increased by 4.9 per cent.


      All four UK countries saw an increase in exports during the year.

      There was an increase in annual export value for all English regions except the North West and the West Midlands.

      The largest export partner by value was the United States for England, Germany for Wales, the Netherlands for Scotland, and the Irish Republic for Northern Ireland.

      The partner countries with the largest value increase were the United States for England, Irish Republic for Wales and Northern Ireland and the Netherlands for Scotland.


      The value of UK imports increased for all UK countries.

      There was an increase in annual import value for the all English regions except the East.

      The largest import partner by value was Germany for England, the United States for Wales, Norway for Scotland, and the Irish Republic for Northern Ireland.

      The partner countries with the largest value increase were the United States for England, and Wales, the Netherlands for Scotland, and the Irish Republic for Northern Ireland.

      See also:

      Top partner countries and commodity infographics (Scotland) – Q1 2019 ) links to a .pdf

    190. Robert Peffers says:

      @chicmac says: 26 June, 2019 at 1:46 pm:

      ” … I still await someone to devise a genuine wealth creation index.”

      I’d settle for Scotland just getting full and correct credit for things that Scotland genuinely produces. For example full credit for the up to 98% oil & gas revenues presently accounted as being derived from, “United Kingdom extraregio territory”, and not from internationally recognised Scottish territorial waters under Scottish jurisdiction.

      Like getting the same payments as London for each kilowatt of electric power that Scottish generators add into the National Grid and the profits earned from the Scottish Crown Estates and so on.

      Then, of course there is the scam whereby Scottish produce and products are taken to English processing and packaging plants then exported from English ports and airports and are accounted as English Exports. Then there is Scotch, Gin and other distilled and brewed products that are transported to English ports and airports and by leaving the United Kingdom from England are classed as English Exports.

      Not to mention the many business headquarters based in London and other English locations that then pay tax as English companies or the United Kingdom tax, duty and funds collected for the treasury from other United Kingdom headquarters and thus all those jobs and employee’s spending and tax adding to the other regions of the United Kingdom.

      It even extends to things like children, cat, dog and other charities where there is specific Scottish & English charities. Often these advertise in Scotland, collect in Scotland but only assist those in England. Some have been exposed but others have not.

    191. Ian says:

      @ Capella 3.32pm

      Seems to be an unstable link. Sometimes works. Try again.

    192. Capella says:

      @ Welsh Sion – thx for info. Interesting. I’ll keep on trying to access the site to bookmark it but good to get the figures pro tem

    193. Ian says:

      This link works using a search engine but not from WoS. Strange.

    194. Capella says:

      @ Ian – will do 🙂

    195. Capella says:

      @ Ian @ Welsh Sion – got into the site now – thx

    196. Giving Goose says:

      I’m guessing that upwardly mobile Tavish Scott has looked in the crystal ball and doesn’t see much in the way of career enhancement via Holyrood.
      He’s not going to get a knighthood or House of Lords seat that way.
      Plan B then.

    197. Dr Jim says:

      Just shows how bad cheeky but poor interviewer Sky’s Kay Burley is when she can’t outwit an amateur dummy like Ross Thompson

      At one point she said *it’s my name above the door* I believe that’s in reference to what she and Sky calls *The Kay Burley show*
      instead of just *the news*

    198. Dr Jim says:

      Everywhere you look Yoons are squealing how can Scotland be Independent from the UK, and it doesn’t seem to matter how many times you tell them there will be no UK because Scotland is the other half of that Union so when we stop being that half there is no Union left

      They’re tiny Yoon brains can’t seem to grasp the concept that England isn’t the Effing UK

      How many times, it’s like talking to monkeys

    199. Dr Jim says:

      Please excuse my grammatical error, the monkeys are making so much noise

    200. kapelmeister says:

      Tavish Scott has a big majority but some of it presumably is a personal vote. In the recent Euro election the SNP vote on Shetland was only 3.7% behind the Lib Dem vote.

      The SNP might have a chance of winning the by-election.

    201. twathater says:

      @ Giving Goose 4.28 pm , I concur GG I had the same thought myself , also if you look at the dug her jaiket was on a ever more shoogly peg , they are more and more shiting themselves , who next for the new jobs creation market , will wee Willie winkie become the head of stagecoach , or will Jackson carlot become the head of arnie Clark

      OT watched daily politics who in their right mind voted for the effervescent dumb cluck danniella rowley , I suppose she speaks faster than her da but is just as boring , and andrea leadsome should be renamed andrea LOATHSOME

    202. Gary45% says:

      Tavish Scott gets re-elected because the locals still think they are voting for Jo Grimond, all lib dems are re-elected for the same reason. I know locals up there, and it was they who told me so.

    203. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. what it will take for Scotland to “get off its knees and start acting like a sovereign Nation which you don’t want to fk with”. From an anthropological perspective, the state is considered masculine and the nation feminine, so have you ever wondered what “masculinity” is all about? This appears way OT but it isn’t really, IMHO. Men need to sort their shit out and start behaving a bit more like rational human beings, if we are to have any hope of achieving social equity. This is especially so in light of the global dominance of the New Right in western politics, and the ongoing assault on the international rule-of-law.

      A Critical Realist Analysis of Masculinity:
      Men Gravitating to a Dominant Masculine Norm


      This thesis documents a qualitative study investigating common patterns that cut across the behaviours of white, heterosexual, working and middle-class men. Previous literature has reported that men’s behaviour during their micro social relations is often risky and potentially harmful. This study provides an important contribution to knowledge regarding the motivation behind these patterns of behaviour.

      The research is rooted within a critical realist philosophical perspective. Of key importance are the concepts of a dominant masculine norm, as a pre-established representation of social reality, common patterns of men’s behaviour, as occurring during relations between men, and social class dynamics, specifically amongst the working and middle-class. Data were gathered from four focus groups, two with working-class men and two with middle-class men, and from one to one interviews with the same respondents. Template analysis was used to thematically organize and analyse the recorded accounts.

      Masculinity emerged in the data as a dominant, socially pre-established representation which establishes the transcendence of vulnerability as an esteemed form of men’s behaviour. Following the data, masculinity constitutes but one of a multitude of men’s social identities; with men gravitating to the dominant masculine norm within those contexts when they perceive their status as ‘masculine’ to be under threat.

      In this sense, men and masculinity emerged as separate constructs, with some men and women having the freedom to gravitate to both masculine and feminine gender norms. Men, during relations between men, police one another’s gravitations to the dominant masculine norm, ostracising those who expose vulnerability. As such, all-male domains emerged as the main context in which men demonstrate their masculinity.

      The data suggested that patterns of subordination and domination are common among groups of white, heterosexual men with similar social and material resources. The subordination of women and less valued varieties of masculinity emerged as being a by-product, rather than a direct objective

    204. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      kapelmeister @ 16:50,

      Same thought ocurred to me. Probably still a long shot, but all the better then if it happens. But even a significant rise in votes for the SNP would be another chip off the crumbling Union edifice, another twinge to the BritNats’ quivering heartstrings.

      Can’t say Tavish the Snide will be especially missed, but it would be a pity if he were replaced by some FibDem nonentity. Whether by deliberate intent or by mere deficit of talent, the most effective BritNat attack on Holyrood seems to be from the inside, by populating the opposition seats with the cringingly talentless.

    205. call me dave says:


      Yes the politics show and what a motley crew the unionists were.

      I enjoyed watching them all wriggle and in denial of the big SNP elephant North of the Wall. 🙂

      ‘Scottish’ Lab Ms Rowley particularly dense out chappin on doors oblivious that their days are over, but still cheery!

    206. jfngw says:

      Tavish Scott joins 80 minute patriots, who would have thought it.

      If the SNP win Shetland I will eat Paddy Ashdown’s old hat. Orkney and Shetland are so conservative they will vote LibDem forever.

    207. schrodingers cat says:


      not necessarily, especially if the bxp stand

    208. jfngw says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Seems an unlikely swing from the LibDems to the BXP, They could take Tory/Labour votes but I don’t see the attraction for LibDem voters, in fact if they attract LibDem voters they are just as likely to take SNP votes also.

    209. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      jfngw @ 17:51,

      People in rural Scotland have long folk memories – Crofters Act, etc., and you can call that (small-c) conservatism if you like, but it’s essentially no different in nature from the “red-post” Labourite vote in central Scotland.

      But who would ever have thought that the SNP would displace the likes of the “Alexander Brothers”, one in Inverness and one in Paisley? Yet both happened.

      People up north have their traditional loyalties, but they aren’t gormless yokels either, and can see the way the British Empire (reduced) is going just like the rest of us can. So don’t dismiss a change there out of hand. It could well be one of the last, but when it goes, you’ll know the end game is well afoot.

    210. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Anent Tavish Scott getting a gig with the SRU. The “body of the kirk” in Scottish Rugby – the ordinary club guys, are far from happy at this appointment, not on any political grounds, but, because he hasn’t a clue about rugby and is simply the latest “jobs for our pals” appointee by a coterie of paid officials who appear to be feathering their own nests at the expense of the ordinary clubs.

      We don’t need this loser getting involved in Scottish Rugby. Mind you, maybne he’s had enough of Wee Willie Rennie and Alex Coal Shovel, and, who could blame him.

    211. jfngw says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      I’m not dismissing them out of hand but looking at the latest vote in Scotland, the only areas that did not have SNP at top was Orkney and Shetland. They see themselves as Shetlanders and Orcadians first, I don’t believe many see any difference between Edinburgh and London.

      But I do agree if Shetland goes SNP then it’s truly is curtains for the union.

    212. Republicofscotland says:

      Well if I had just moved to Scotland from Timbuktu, and watched the ultra unionist STV news. I’d be thinking its a country of homeless people who bully NHS staff before committing suicide.

      What a shower of Jeremy Hunt’s.

    213. CameronB Brodie says:

      This clip is a poor reflection of the totality of English culture, but it does fit the narrative of contemporary, populist, English culture. That should concern those with a respect for Scottish culture and civil society. I would have expected that to include Scotland’s judiciary, frankly.

      This may appear a bit left-field but here’s some contemporary constitutional legal thought relating to equality and relevant in light of the full-English Brexit, IMHO. One for the legal anoraks, full text. 😉

      Squaring the circle: How the right to refuge can be reconciled with the right to political identity


      From the perspective of the dichotomy between the paradigms of international law and relations – particularism, on the one hand, and universalism on the other – the right to seek refuge in view of a threat against the fundamental conditions of a decent life, and the right to preserve the identity of the political community, seem to be irreconcilable. While the supporters of the particularistic understanding of international order claim the superiority of the identity of the individual political community, the advocates of universalism promote the right to seek asylum without consideration of national borders.

      Yet, on both sides of the dichotomy things are not as definite as they seem to be at first glance. In fact, not every parochialism is insensitive to the rights of “others,” and cosmopolitanism has to acknowledge that rights should be regarded as differentiated when they refer to rights holders in different situations. Building on this potential rapprochement, a framework is developed for the recognition of the right of aliens to refuge which, nevertheless, also presupposes that citizens justifiably hold a “thicker” endowment of rights than strangers.

      On this basis, the following questions are addressed: (i) what are the specific rights of citizens that make them different from aliens? (ii) what is entailed in the right to refuge? (iii) under which conditions can a right to refuge be claimed? and (iv) on the contrary, when is it justified to deny the right to cross borders in the name of preserving the integrity of the political community?

    214. gus1940 says:


      I have always been mystified by The City of London and all its works in particular just how do individuals sitting in front of computer screens manage to make millions.

      Is it not long overdue for somebody to produce a documentary series on just how the place works?

      How about episodes covering Currency Speculation, Commodity Markets and the speculation that surrounds them, Investment Banking, Hedge Funds and all the other money making scams.

      I have always believed that every action has an equal and opposite reaction but that doesn’t seem to apply to The City or do the millions come out of the pockets of others – alternatively are the millions just magicked?

      Another episode could inform us just how one can jump on the bandwagon and join the millionaires.

    215. mike cassidy says:

      Well worth reading for those who view Scotland’s independence fight through the prism of colonialism.

      “There are certain territories in the Commonwealth which, owing to their particular circumstances, can never expect to be fully independent”,

    216. call me dave says:

      James Kelly (oor wan)

      Must have seen The Jeremy Vile show. 🙂

    217. mike cassidy says:


      You could dip your intellectual toe here

    218. mike cassidy says:


      This is a more in-depth look.

    219. Gary45% says:

      As I am now “versed up wiv da yoof”
      Hunt= Here until next Tuesdays.

    220. Gary45% says:

      A wee O/T
      The wife asked me today ” what would you like for your 57th birthday? I replied “A bouncy castle”, she told me there is a law which prohibits anyone over 55 to have a bouncy castle.
      Is she pulling my leg or should I trade her in for some classic Subbuteo or Scalextric?

    221. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, the previous paper I was looking at was full text. I’m not trying to screw with folks heads, honest. Full text this time. Trust me. 🙂

      Political constitutionalism and the Human Rights Act


      Many commentators portray the Human Rights Act (HRA) as marking the demise of Britain’s “political constitution.” This article argues otherwise. The HRA need not be taken as handing over supremacy for rights adjudication from the legislature to the courts. First, the HRA brings “rights home,” strengthening, in certain respects, domestic rights instruments vis-à-vis the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). Second, sections 19 and 4 of the Act maintain and potentially enhance Parliament’s scrutiny of rights and its sovereignty over the courts in defining and upholding them.

      Finally, section 3 and rights-based judicial review generally can be assimilated to a system of “weak” review whereby courts defer to the legislative “scope,” as determined by Parliament, and are restricted in their independent determinations to the judicial “sphere” of the fair conduct of the case at hand. Such weak review, so called, has always been necessary. However, the HRA potentially reinforces judicial deference by giving it a stronger statutory basis. That the HRA could strengthen rather than undermine political constitutionalism need not mean it does or will. However, the implication of this article is that it ought to be regarded as doing so, with the judiciary acting accordingly.

    222. Clydebuilt says:


      Uk trade link time’s out for me also. I see Welsh Sion managed to open the link .
      Assuming Welsh Sion is based in Wales . . . . Has anyone managed to open the link from Scotland?

    223. Col.Blimp IV says:


      It is the web-based or new technology start up companies that intrigue me.

      People buy shares in what is for all intents and purposes “nothing but hope and hype”, gongs are banged and bugles blown and others jump on the bandwagon in the hope that this will become the next big thing – the price goes up.

      The original investors cash in then start another ball rolling.
      Nobody seems to care that most of these operations fall flat on their face.

      This casino makes some people a great deal of money, which must come from somewhere – everyone who has a bank account, pension, insurance policy etc. I expect.

      We are all being ripped off by these pirates, yet nobody seems to care.

    224. Welsh Sion says:

      Clydebuilt @ 7.13 pm

      Apologies, but I’m based (like Rev Stu.) in exile, in England. (Not far from Lu’on airpor’, in fact).

    225. Liam says:

      Uk trade link time’s out for me also. I see Welsh Sion managed to open the link .
      Assuming Welsh Sion is based in Wales . . . . Has anyone managed to open the link from Scotland?

      If we’re talking about this link:
      then yes. Works in the Highlands.

    226. mr thms says:

      Republicofscotland @ 6:27 pm

      Head and shoulders, the best debunker of unionist news I have read is Talking-up Scotland.

    227. Capella says:

      @ Clydebuilt – I did eventually get it to work by clicking the link directly on this page. That may have nothing to do with it. Maybe the site is just temperamental so keep trying.

    228. geeo says:

      The Buffoon on Sky News live from Tory Social media platform: “Do brexit right and Scots will not want to rejoin the EU..the Euro ehm.err..umm”

      62% REMAIN says otherwise.

      59% backing indy if no deal brexit, says otherwise.

      58% backing indy if the Buffoon wins leadership contest, says otherwise.

      Viewers in England might lap this pish up, not so much up here.

    229. Marie Clark says:

      I see from the Rev’s twitter account that Ruth the Mooth is backing Jeremy Hunt in the tory bun fight.

      Oh dear, Boris it is then for PM.

    230. Simon Curran says:

      What we’ve always got to remember is that Brexit is not the problem, it’s a symptom of the problem. The problem is Scotland will be ignored by Westminster every time England’s interests dictate otherwise (which realistically is most of the time), Brexit is just the latest unpleasant symptom. Hopefully it will be the last.

    231. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liam says: 26 June, 2019 at 7:19 pm:

      ! … If we’re talking about this link:
      then yes. Works in the Highlands.”

      Tried it earlier – no joy.
      Tried it just now – very fast load.

      It may have been down for maintenance or something. Perhaps just getting heavy use.

    232. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve clicked on

      on a windoze machine and an iMac at work and a PowerMac at home and got the page every time, no problem.

    233. bittie45 says:


      Just watched fall from 232,699 to 232,616. WTF!

    234. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Sorry, living in the past. That’ PowerMac’ is actually a MacPro.

    235. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Talking about misinformed English pish a la Carole Malone, there is a very interesting article by Gordon Millar in today’s National which is partly on that very subject. In giving a talk to some twenty 6th-years in an English private school, he commences, deliberately tongue-in-cheek:

      Scottish politics is just like English politics with an extra party, and elections are four-way fights. The SNP lost the Scottish part of the last General Election, which was won by Ruth Davidson’s Tories, and Labour benefitted from a Corbyn bounce. Independence is now off the agenda for the foreseeable future. Raise your hands if you think this is a fair description of current Scottish politics.

      Now this is a subset of well-educated scions of the English Establishment, not uneducated twats like Malone, but every dang one of them raised their hand!

      This is the dark heart of the UK, that Scotland is run from afar by self-entitled ignoramuses who have neither a proper understanding nor sufficient interest, provided only that our resources keep filling the UK’s deep coffers.

      “Colonised by wankers” indeed.

      The rest of the article is equally pertinent, asking the SNP to be rather more assertive in defending our interests, as in the morale-boosting HoC walkout. In these doldrums, hard to disagree:

    236. boris says:

      The terrible truth about Gordon Brown’s criminal miscalculations – A devastating indictment of his time as Chancellor and Prime Minister.

    237. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      @ Capella and @ Clydebuilt says

      UK Trade Info page archived here:

      Remember Oil & Gas are under UK (which still imports more than it exports according to these figures).

      Scotland is the exception with a positive balance of trade (without Oil and Gas!!).

    238. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      So has the Dug @call me dave says at 6:41 pm

    239. I’ve just watched the video of Jeremy Vine show.
      We Scots are shocked by their ignorance about Scotland, things Scottish and Scottish Politics but it occurred to me that they are exactly equally that ignorant or more about the EU and experiencing how cavalier and ignorant they are about my country helps me to understand exactly why we are now in such a mess!

      An eye opener!

    240. call me dave says:

      @Jockanese Wind Talker

      Thanks for that link. I sometimes forget the Dug. 🙂


      @Robert Peffers

      Thanks for the interesting link 🙂

      The Tory doing his best but not good enough.

    241. Petra says:

      @ Breeks says at 8:07am in reference to me…. “Aye look at this. Maybe we can trust the BBC.”…..

      Cam doon Breeks. Did I say that I trusted the BBC? No I didn’t. And no I don’t. Far from it. I was only pointing out that BBC 9 have been broadcasting some very enlightening programmes recently. That’s all.


      @ Legerwood says at 10:12am …… “2 child cap policy pushing even more families into poverty … Ruth Davidson promised a review. Time to ask her when that review is going to happen.”

      Apologies for the “resume” of what you actually said Legerwood. I’m on my IPad and zooming up and down here trying to remember what to post, lol. Tiredness isn’t helping either.

      The problem with that Legerwood is that the media don’t seem to be too keen on asking her “difficult” questions in relation to any subject and Ruth only emerges from her rat’s nest when being asked general knowledge questions on programmes like the Chase. Nicola has the ammunition now to confront her at FMQ’s, but will Toodleoothenoo, et al, report on it? I hae ma doots. What a corrupt wee cabal, eh?


      I’ve just started reading the National. On page 2 the article (Black hole tax claims ..) outlines that the Scottish Fiscal Commission has stated that there will be a £229 million shortfall next year rising to £608 million in 21/22 and a £108 million shortfall in the following year.

      On page 3 another article (Scotland spends £500 million fighting austerity impact) highlights that the SG has invested half a billion pounds combating the effects of UK Government austerity in the last year alone….. “Scotland already has lower child poverty and in-work poverty rates than the UK as a whole.”

      In other words over and above robbing Scotland blind we’re forking out to alleviate Westminster’s ideological austerity measures ….. misery …. and If we didn’t have to do so there would be no blooming shortfall at all. We’d be in the black in fact. I know most people on here realise this already. Just posting the facts for visitors to the site. It’s also another point to put to Ruth Davidson if anyone can find her.

    242. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      You are correct @Meg merrilees says 9:36 pm

      “their ignorance” has been allowed to happen and indeed has been maintained by the media in the UK.

      Those who are supposed to hold power to account, shine a light into the dark corners of Westminster have done the exact opposite.

      Non-Dom Press Barons and The Neo-Fascist British Nationalist State Broadcaster have ensured the interests of the 1% have been advanced at the expense of the rest of society and then helped their MP friends get off the hook by blaming foreigners, Lefties, Scots etc. etc. etc.

      When the English electorate wake up to the fact they’ve been conned and the economy tanks due to a No-Deal Brexit I suspect the major cities South of the Border will experience the worst civil unrest ever seen with only an under funded and demoralised thin blue line to defend public order and safety.

      An the self same charlatans will make sure they are safe in their gated communities/leafy home counties with sufficient ‘anti-terrorism’ or military protection.

      Fiddling while Rome burns.

      That’ll be how the UK ends.

    243. Petra says:

      I’m just hearing that there was a spat between Jeremy Vine and Jeremy Hunt today. Anyone know anything about that?

    244. Petra says:

      Goody two-shoes Hunt. The corrupt, greedy racist who wants to privatise the NHS. That man that Ruth Davidson now supports.

    245. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Amy MacDonald steaming in on that Jeremy Vine pantomime.

    246. Dr Jim says:

      Alex Massie on the Sanjeev Koli talky show thingy refers to the SNP as gangsters nobody likes as he very nearly got himself punched in the face from Janey Godley

      It’s time for us the people to step up and put these people in their place, it’s time we operated the hostile environment for people who are hostile towards us, it’s time for us to demonstrate clearly to England and its politics we don’t want it so take it and shove it

      Why are we always the ones who have to be polite to people who insult us to our face, we can’t expect the SNP to do that, but we can, time to show folk we’re fed up with them so do one

    247. Petra says:

      Thanks for that JWT (9:05pm). This should be forwarded to Jeremy Vine … et al … millions across the UK. Not excluding Scotland of course. An real education for the unenlightened.

    248. Phronesis says:

      No matter which way one looks at it, the UK is a myth, an entity that no longer exists.

      Meanwhile this country Scotland, a nation in waiting but not for much longer, is going its own way and its citizens are engaged with their government writing a uniquely Scottish social contract together. It’s all about the words and the deeds.

      “We have heard from people across Scotland that the introduction of this new payment will be a lifeline for families currently trapped in poverty. Today’s statement will be welcome news for hundreds of thousands of children. £10 for a child in poverty can mean being able to buy fresher food, or go on a school trip, or have enough warm clothes. Fast-tracking the introduction of this new payment is absolutely the right thing to do and is a golden opportunity to make meaningful progress in solving child poverty in Scotland’

      Meanwhile, in another country, the ideological rhetoric is punitive, repressive, factually incorrect. It’s all about the words and deeds.

      ‘The Government should have shown today that it is serious about tackling the rising tide of poverty in the UK. Instead they chose not to end the freeze on benefits leaving families in poverty to face rising costs and bear all the risks of economic uncertainty, especially if we leave the EU without a deal.
      “When asked about rising child poverty earlier in the day, the Prime Minister tried to shift the focus onto the issue of workless households, suggesting a Government out of touch with the tough realities of many lives in the UK’

      And the deeds are reprehensible;

      ‘People with severe mental ill health are being routinely ‘warehoused’ in locked private wards hundreds of miles from homes for want of NHS care close to home, an investigation reveals.
      While some CCGs pay for such beds in the NHS, most depend heavily on private hospitals and care homes – and increasingly so, data released under Freedom of Information laws reveals.
      Hundreds of private beds are hours and hours away from patients’ homes, analysis of 2,600 journeys found. Seven hundred are sold to CCGs as ‘locked rehab’, a type not recognised in NHS guidance – raising concerns about patient care and human rights.
      An extensive study of mental health rehabilitation by the CQC (Care Quality Commission) last year found that stays in private beds cost twice as much as in the NHS because they last twice as long. It found the annual cost of rehab was £535m and that private beds were on average 30 miles away from patients’ homes but just nine miles away in the NHS’

    249. stu mac says:

      @gus1940 says:
      26 June, 2019 at 6:34 pm

      A great deal of the money is created from being the money-laundering capital of the world these days. And that’s not a wild accusation …

    250. Effijy says:

      The loose ends post where you can give support to the Rev in his appeal
      Against the Dugdale ruling needs just 32 more votes to reach the 2,000 mark.

      Please vote if you haven’t done so already.

      Nice to have a couple of thousand people ready to back you when needed.

    251. Essexexile says:

      What is that sitting on the right hand side of the panel?
      It appears to have attempted to blend in with the set behind but it draws attention to itself with cretinously ill informed comments delivered with the indignant self righteousness that only truly thick people are capable of.
      If this is where we are with political punditry in 2019 it’s probably just as well that the planet is fucked and we’ll all be dead from heat exhaustion / accumulated plastic ingestion / nuclear holocaust within the next ten years anyway.

      ….and breathe.

    252. Dan says:

      @Effijy at 10:51 pm

      Is it not the case that the 2 options to the poll do not necessarily describe all outcomes.
      IE. Costs allocations are still to be decided upon at the hearing. The second option assumes paying her costs but that might not be the situation.

      Someone also added a post this morning which hasn’t be responded to as yet.

    253. Petra says:

      Another excellent post from you Phronesis highlighting some of the differences between north and south. I often feel sorry for the ordinary English people, but then I ask myself why on earth are they putting up with this? There’s around 55 million of them. Get out there, on the streets, and tell your politicians enough is enough. On the otherhand is that what they thought they were doing when they voted for Brexit? Duped into believing that their miserable lives had been created by immigrants and the EU. If so, it doesn’t bear thinking about the future of England when their glorious dream, eh, materialises.


      Thanks for taking the time to search for that Welsh Sion and posting it on here (10:34pm). Not much of a spat mind you! One of the richest presenters on TV / radio telling Hunt he’s the richest Cabinet member. Seems Hunt didn’t want anyone to know about that. Secret NOT.


      Dr Jim at 10:32pm ….. Looks as though, hostility against the Scots is on the rise, becoming contagious now with everyone and their ignorant granny getting the boot in. The same wee steps that were taken against a minority group in 1930’s Germany.


      Another from WGD:- “The Saltire piñata.”

    254. Sarah says:

      @ Welsh Sion at 3.45 re the awful Jeremys: J Guscott – you are right. So full of himself, I’m surprised they bothered with the other 14 in his team!

    255. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dr Jim @10:32pm
      Scots are the marginalised minority, so it is our duty as the subourdinate to adopt the inferior demeanor. Think abusive domestic relationships. The cringe is in most of us, even though we like to think otherwise.

      Decolonizing Culture in Community Psychology: Reflections from Critical Social Science


      Since its inception, community psychology has been interested in cultural matters relating to issues of diversity and marginalization. However, the field has tended to understand culture as static social markers or as the background for understanding group differences. In this article the authors contend that culture is inseparable from who we are and what we do as social beings.

      Moreover, culture is continually shaped by socio-historical and political processes intertwined within the globalized history of power. The authors propose a decolonizing standpoint grounded in critical social science to disrupt understandings of cultural matters that marginalize others. This standpoint would move the field toward deeper critical thinking, reflexivity and emancipatory action.

      The authors present their work to illustrate how they integrate a decolonizing standpoint to community psychology research and teaching. They conclude that community psychology must aim towards intercultural work engaging its political nature from a place of ontological/epistemological/methodological parity.

      Key words: culture, colonialism, critical theory, decolonizing standpoint, autoethnography, critical ethnography.

    256. CameronB Brodie says:

      subordinate obvs. 😉

    257. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t know if folk remember me suggesting reality is normative and defined through narrative, or that identity is formed at the point of interaction between the individual and culture. Well, these things matters, trust me. 🙂

      Dominant Cultural Narratives, Racism, and Resistance in the Workplace: A Study of the Experiences of Young Black Canadians


      Although many studies have examined lived experiences of racism and resistance in various contexts, relatively little research has examined such experiences among Black youth within the workplace—particularly in the Canadian context. In this study I use qualitative analyses of narrative interviews with 24 Black Canadian youth and young adults (aged 16–35) to examine the impact of dominant cultural narratives on lived experiences of workplace racism and resistance.

      Findings are presented using theatrical games as a central conceptual metaphor, suggesting that: (a) dominant cultural narratives have a major impact on relational dynamics of oppression in the workplace; (b) identity performance is a critical strategy for negotiating dominant cultural narratives in the workplace; and [c] panopticism (the internalized gaze) is a significant aspect of internalized oppression. Implications for future research and action are discussed.

    258. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexitania will be a wonderland for xenophobic, English, Tories and old-skool Labourites, but what about those of us with a different political identity? Will supporting (white) British nationalism be a comfortable ‘fit’ for Scots and Scottish culture?

      Culture and Personality: Toward an Integrated Cultural Trait Psychology


      Two theoretical perspectives currently dominate research on culture and personality, the cross?cultural trait psychology approach, in which the trait concept is central, and the cultural psychology approach, in which the trait concept is questioned. Here I review theory and research from both perspectives and propose that the tenets of cultural psychology, at least in their more moderate forms, can be synthesized with the trait psychology approach, resulting in an integrated cultural trait psychology perspective.

    259. CameronB Brodie says:

      Why is cultural trait psychology important? Well, Scotland didn’t fall victim to mass narcissistic nostalgia for empire and voted to stay in the EU. We weren’t seeking to whitewash a colonial history and impose ourselves on others. Scottish ‘nationalism’ supports multi-cultural tolerance. Contemporary British “nationalism” is increasingly racist, and Islamophobic in particular. Contemporary British nationalism is an expansionist form of English nationalism.

      What ‘cultural backlash’? Brexit is a product of nationalist ideology

      What’s cultural about the ‘culture wars’? In this blog, Charles Leddy-Owen (University of Portsmouth) discusses Brexit and nationalist politics. He claims that the conflation of culture with nationalism is not only simplistic but also problematic as far as it leads us to assign unwarranted causal properties to immigration and ethnic diversity in electoral politics. In his view, Leave voters’ desire to ‘take back control’ of sovereignty and borders was the most explicitly nationalist political moment in recent English history….

    260. chicmac says:

      Thanks for that.

      Read some of it and it seems to be along the right lines.

      Main crits so far are

      1) That it seems to unnecessarily divide genuine wealth into three categories. There is so much overlap in practice and in the end the resulting effect of all three is still genuine wealth creation.

      2) The stated premise that an economy’s purpose is ‘social well being’. While that is probably a consensus among rational and empathetic human beings it is still not the perceived goal of everyone, especially those of most influence in most economies today.

      Other stuff too, but its late.

    261. Cactus says:

      Hey Wings, we gambling in da Glasgow MC

      Just broke even wae it Yes

      We are happy wae it

    262. Cactus says:

      Watching the snooker on a big screen in the money hoose

      N Ireland vs Rep Ireland… wuv cashed in like

      Mon the Ireland

      1 (5) 3

    263. Cactus says:

      Nevermind the the rain, Kurt

      Have u ever seen the morning sun, J?

      Aye have

    264. Cactus says:

      See see ARE like

    265. Cactus says:

      One is back in a guest HOME

      Where are you?

      Aye am

    266. Cactus says:

      At THIS groovy hour within THIS Thursday feelin’, the usual groovy People that are watching Wings, are…

      Liz g

      Identify yerselves Wingers

      Be ye well

    267. Cactus says:

      Hey, the sun is coming up Scotland…

      How does that make ye feel

      Fuck the darkness

    268. Cactus says:

      Dudes & dudettes…

      With kindliness, ahm heading back intae studio ra day

      Ask me to PLAY ah song…

    269. Cactus says:

      See when Nicola calls it like…

      Indyref2’s gonna be amazing!

      We’ll be there

    270. Cactus says:

      Ariston and on and on and on like

      Turn off your television

      Listen to your radio

      Kev knows

    271. Cactus says:

      TIME waits for no man or woman, SO said he

      Tis true, praise yerself readers

      Praise be

    272. Cactus says:

      Ahm no ah man of the jesus or the god…

      Are you?

      For christs sakes, OMFG

    273. Cactus says:

      God is cool, so is jesus

      Ye ken whit ahm saying believers

      Aye believe in Scotland

      Think about things

    274. Cactus says:

      SO is Allah, SO is Ganesh, SO is yours…

      IF you CHOOSE to believe, s’cool

      Go for it!

    275. Cactus says:

      RA is rising, Scotland

      The comma above was SO important…

      Normalness is coming

    276. Cactus says:

      Ra pipes are PLAYing on right NOW

      Tune in today

      Tune in tomorrow like

      “Aye aye aye”

    277. Cactus says:

      We knows it’s new Thursday like NOW aye…

      See ahn ahm wundering what Cairnstoon be composing for us?

      Gies ah tempter for THIS weekend Chris

    278. Petra says:

      Some positive Scottish news to start off your day. Weather’s great too .. smiley face thing.

    279. Dorothy Devine says:

      Morning dear cactus , sounds like the night was yours!

      The morning is beautiful , saltire blue!

      The ignorance and arrogance coupled with a misplaced sense of superiority and entitlement fully on display in that appalling clip but leaving me unsurprised.

      And that bonny wee Scottish lassie appeared to be incapable of defending her country against it – how very sad.

      British nationalists – wha’s like them , nane o’ us thank the lord!

    280. Ken500 says:

      The third child who was cut from family benefit for poorer family. The SNP Gov could look to remedy that situation. Or maybe it is covered in the extra payments now being given. Another win win for Devolution/SNP Gov. The monies, contributions and support now being given to poorer in need families. Often one parent through no fault of their own, The amount of up to £500 to a £thousand will make such a different. Once again having to mitigate the appalling cuts to women and children. One parent struggling families who have borne the brunt of Tory cuts and austerity.

      So proud of the SNP Scottish Gov once again doing something about it. Within the Westminster interference and diminished budget. Once again showing how popular and appreciated the SNP Gov is in these matters. Leading to the great support. Take a bow all the members and their contribution trying to keep the community stable and thriving. Including all the other supporters and marchers contributions etc and all the voters. The ones who stand up and vote SNP/SNP and support Independence.

      How much better off Scotland would be Independent with full control of resources and spending. There could easily be an increase in Gov OA Pension for those in the most need, The elderly women so against Independence, Cutting off their nose to spite their face in their resistance to it.

      Have a word with every pensioner known to show with better control of budget and spending, Scottish Gov pensions could be well up to European levels where pensioners qualify for higher levels of care. Scotland already have better levels of personal care payments. To save on residential care and hospital care. Helping the elderly to stay in their own homes as required and requested. Social care £60+. Residential care £600+ a week. Hospital care £600+ a day.
      Minimum pricing is already improving people’s health and saving NHS/Gov monies which can be better spent,

      Findlay seems to have lost the heid. In making false accusation. Not standing again because chances of re election are slim? Tavish Scott to go as well. To a rugby post. Thick as a plank Lib liar plant. The rats are definately deserting the sinking ship. Even they have had enough of it. The unionist mess, what a complete and utter shambles,

      Another one down, another one gone another one hits the dust. Until Scotland/EU/world is free of Westminster unionist heinous and damaging interference. Scotland could be so much better off with full control of assets and resources and full control of spending. Another £20Billion. £60Billion + £20Billion revenues raised. £80Billion on par with Norwsy. For a much more prosperous, fair, equal economy. IndyRef 2020 which can be won, To bring even better improvements to the world and the economy.

    281. bjsalba says:

      @gus1940 26 June, 2019 at 6:34 pm

      Don’t know about telling you how it works but I would suggest reading

      The Finance Curse:
      How Global Finance Is Making us all Poorer.

      By Nicholas Shaxson.

    282. Sinky says:

      North Britain newspaper has Amber Rudd writing article claiming that the shambolic Universal Credit system is a benefit of the Union.

    283. Frank Gillougley says:

      Read this article this morning.

      My conclusion is that there is no difference between the populist jeremy vine thingy above and this article by an arse in a posh newspaper.

      It’s not frightening, there are literally so many howlers, they really just haven’t a clue.

    284. Robert Peffers says:

      Is this a clue to whatever plan Nicola and the SNP have for gaining independence?

    285. Golfnut says:

      @ Robert Peffers.

      Agreed Robert, the message is subtle but not hidden, too many people commenting without thinking about this in relation to the contents of the Withdrawal Bill.
      Are we on the same page.

    286. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      27 June, 2019 at 8:08 am

      Is this a clue to whatever plan Nicola and the SNP have for gaining independence?

      I think it’s more explicit than just a “clue”.

      “We will do everything we can to halt – or, if necessary, to mitigate Brexit. ”

      So when Plan A fails and Brexit cannot be stopped, Plan B is to roll over and mitigate it. Obviously when Ian Blackford says Scotland will not be removed from Europe against it’s will, he’s just playing to the gallery, because Nicola has no intention of putting the Union to the sword over Brexit. We’re going to mitigate it and keep the peace like good little house Jocks.

      No doubt the news will come as a bitter disappointment to Scots who want to see their sovereign will to stay in Europe made manifest, following a long overdue Constitutional standoff which Westminster could not win.

      Clearly it wasn’t a gaff when Nicola said she hoped the next 20 years of devolution would be as successful as the first. She meant exactly what she said. Buckle up for 20 more years of Devolution.

      So. Have we seen enough yet? Who do we turn to now to protect Scotland’s Sovereignty and European Citizenship? How quickly can we formally get YES evolved into a Political Party that will be ready to stand up for Scotland before October?

    287. Dr Jim says:

      We’ll have devolution till the end of time if we the people don’t do something about it, calls for the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon to *just do it* aren’t enough, this must be people led, the politicians can only work with what we give them and our problem is half a dozen climate protesters can glue themselves to a pole and it’s all over the news, 100,000 marchers for Independence don’t get reported so it didn’t happen

      Scotland’s people must find a way to make life visibly uncomfortable for England, and I don’t just mean politicians, the people of England must be made aware of our dislike for their system and how they vote in it and that Scotland wants no part of it

      At the moment England’s politicians are making life easier for us but we need to annoy the people of England because the media pays attention to them, they don’t pay attention to Scotland because they don’t have to and they don’t care

      The Unionist politicians will just keep repeating over and over that Scotland doesn’t want Independence, they don’t have to do anything else because we’re not making it hard enough for them

    288. manandboy says:

      With ‘The Union’ now such a hot topic in the media, it is worth remembering what we are dealing with here. The UK is the greater part of what remains of the so-called British Empire, and in the territories occupied by the English Establishment, mainly in the SE of England, the mentality that invaded, subjugated and asset-stripped half the countries on the planet while proclaiming that it was all to the victim’s benefit, still prevails in the corridors of power at Westminster and elsewhere.

      This same mentality raided West Africa for slaves, transporting them like cattle to the Americas, just as they refused to help the starving Irish and the Scots during The Clearances. The same mentality lives on in the British Ruling Class.
      Scotland is a very, very wealthy country which the ‘British’ will fight to control & exploit in traditional Colonial style, while treating the Scots like dumb beasts.

      And yet, nearly two million Scots are OK with that.

      Never underestimate the power of BritNat propaganda. It built an Empire, and still controls the political thinking of huge numbers of people from all walks of life living in Scotland. All helping to keep Scotland under English control.

    289. donnywho says:

      Totally disagree with you Breeks.

      You have to take into account the audience she is speaking too. Though they may not be Unionists to a man or woman, they will almost all be small “C” Conservative.

      She has put a reasonable senario in front of them, one for them to absorb and and clutch onto, a straw if you will, for the drowning man.

      What she and we know is that the UK and Boris will do everything to thwart this deal. It is simply impossable, the UK will not countanance it.

      But remember this is now the reasnable outcome that she and the law community are grasping at. The UK government activly snatching it away from them and soiling their asperations will not go down well.

      Then when the only way to mitigate is to seperate it will be seen as the right thing to do; indeed the only thing to do!

    290. galamcennalath says:

      BritNat propaganda tactic No 143 – be prepared to move the goal posts as necessary.

      Their oft repeated chant was “Scots don’t want IndyRef2”. Now that position is looking unsustainable so they are now saying “Scots do not want another referendum on the timetable Sturgeon says she wants.”

      That is already looking like a questionable assertion.

      All this gives BritNats an excuse, a basis, for their opposition to IR2.

      At some point, very soon, a combination of Tory anti Scottish rhetoric, their new thug-in-chief, and their mad bad Brexit will drive YES support above 50% permanently. At that point there is only one democratic solution. Any ongoing challenges will be openly undermining democracy – dangerous territory for anyone to venture into.

    291. Luigi says:

      Interestingly, during the past two years, there has been significant movement from NO to YES in all demographic groups, bar one:

      Females aged 55+

      No movement at all. Still solid NO. Unfortunately, of all the groups, this is the one that is guaranteed to come out in force on polling day.

    292. Bobp says:

      Luigi9.46am obviously not waspi women.

    293. Bobp says:

      Breeks 8.44am agree with you, Scotland needs a new ‘yes’ political party with candidates standing in every constituency, can we step up to the mark? Or is Johann Lamont right when she says ‘ we aren’t genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions ‘ ie too stupid.

    294. Dan says:

      Luigi at 9:46 am

      Not saying this is particular to that specific group, but it’s often the case that as we age the need to access healthcare for various age-related ailments and conditions increases.
      Informing folk that our current free at point of need healthcare is under real threat is one of the easiest methods to get engagement on, and people also tend to put aside their personal indifferences when discussing this extremely important subject.

      I’ve been involved with groups that have had the likes of Phillipa Whitford attend to give talks relating to this subject.
      Promoting and canvassing for events like this is so easy as nearly everyone has an interest and requirement to use our Scottish NHS services at some point, either on a personal level, or they’ll know family members or friends that do.
      It’s well worth the effort organising such a talk.

      OT: Weather for Scotland Today – Interior Scorchio!, Exterior Scorchio!

    295. Cubby says:

      Frank Gilloughley@7.35am

      Martin Kettle is a Guardian columnist.

      Martin Kettle is an ignoramus. He gets so much wrong in that article.

    296. Golfnut says:

      @ Bohp.
      No it doesn’t, it needs the Yes movement to hit the streets en mass with a petition pertaining to the Sovereignty of the Scottish people giving a clear instruction to the Scottish Goverment. It needs to be directed at the Scottish Gov, not Westminster, its needs to effectively transfer sovereignty of the Scottish Peopmele over a single issue to the the SG through the petition.

    297. Craig P says:

      Dr Jim says:
      26 June, 2019 at 10:32 pm

      Why are we always the ones who have to be polite to people who insult us to our face,

      Because we are going to win.

    298. Bobp says:

      Golfnut, whatever, but we need some some form of action and direction.

    299. Gullaneno4 says:

      Re day of action.
      Anyone thought of a combined AUOB march at all of the major cities/towns in Scotland.
      Do we have enough folk for that or would we be spreading the jam too thin.

      Another thought if we want an accurate count of support is a march/walk across the Forth Road Bridge/Erskine Bridge…….any old bridge. [Maybees not Tams Brig]

    300. frogesque says:

      @ Luigi :9.46

      Female 55+ are the 9nes most likely to gain from a fair pension settlement (WASPI) and the most to be affected one way or anther by health service cuts etc.

      Everything to go for with that for an opening.

    301. Dr Jim says:

      At least half the population of Scotland supports Independence yet the tiny minority of transgender protesters get more publicity

      At least half the population of Scotland supports Independence yet a small group of climate change protesters get more publicity

      What’s the difference between Independence supporters and these other groups

      Independence supporters create no inconvenience, we’re so quiet and polite we don’t disturb anybody and we’re now becoming normalised and invisible at the same time because of it

      Ghandi made sure although peaceful he was visibly inconvenient, I don’t know exactly how to do that but our presence must be made awkwardly noticable as well as just a nice day out for the family

      As long as we just keep smiling at the media broadcasters they’ll keep laughing right back

    302. chicmac says:


      Said France would be 220million if it had the same population density as England. Inadvertently took the UK population and area.

      It would actually be about 275 million.

    303. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 27 June, 2019 at 8:44 am:

      Well that’ll boost the moral of the troops. We can always rely upon Breeks to be a bright ray of sunshine no matter what the circumstance. Scotland expects and all that.

    304. Footsoldier says:

      Getting rather fed up with the time wasting – is anyone in SNP going to sell the benefits of independence to the No’s?

      Breeks may be right about a new political force but to co-ordinate surely, not compete as it is simply not happening in the most opportune circumstances we will ever have.

      Where is the message, the can do, the optimism, the cannot be ignored. Where are the credible reasons that remaining part of UK is not good for us? Where are the comments about our post independence relations with rUK and Ireland – shared islands?

      Answers on a postcard, not an SNP information pack of endless stats.

    305. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bobp says: 27 June, 2019 at 10:06 am:

      ” … Breeks 8.44am agree with you, Scotland needs a new ‘yes’ political party with candidates standing in every constituency, can we step up to the mark?”

      Oh! Aye! That’ll work well – for the unionists.

      So in every constituency the indy vote will split two ways and it won’t matter a damn in what proportions for all it will do is allow a unionist party, maybe even the LibDems, to win more seats.

      If Nicola was standing on the step of Number 10 Downing Street chapping on the door with one hand and with a declaration of independence in the other hand Breeks would be saying, Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t mean it and Bobp would be agreeing with him.

    306. Robert Peffers says:

      @Golfnut says: 27 June, 2019 at 10:17 am:

      ” … No it doesn’t, it needs the Yes movement to hit the streets en mass with a petition pertaining to the Sovereignty of the Scottish people giving a clear instruction to the Scottish Goverment. “

      And what the hell do you think the several mandates that the SG has to run indyref2 is? The SG already has the mandate so that is not the problem.

      I’ll make it very, very clear for you.

      There will be another referendum but here’s the thing.

      We can go the way Breeks wants us to do and hold it now – lose it – and not get another chance for decades of Westminster rule.

      The alternative is for us to wait until we know that the referendum will be won, (when the First Minister KNOWS it will be won), and become independent right then.

    307. Bobp says:

      RP 11.50am fair enough I’ll concede to you on that. But I still think we need to be a little more belligerent.

    308. Mac says:

      @ Dr Jim

      Are YOU still paying your BBC licence?

      What about all Yessers? What do you think the proportion is?

    309. Ahundredthidiot says:

      I see the Splitters are out today

      must be the heat

    310. Mac says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      You are 100% correct.

      The old ‘divide and conquer’ maxim, must be avoided at all costs.

      Everyone should stick with the political vanguard (SNP) but not be afraid to rabble rouse behind them…

    311. Hamish100 says:

      The folk who like to undermine the FM and the SNP are on a roll this morning. Maybe they would prefer the drench rain rather than the sunshine.

    312. Bobp says:

      At least I admitted I was wrong to RP. But not good enough for some p***ks on here.

    313. Mac says:

      @Cubby 10:15

      His article infuriated me, and on top, the comments were closed too quickly. As oft happens with ‘sensitive’ independence topics. The Grundian opens comments carefuly these days.

      But here is something I am noticing more and more… the Journalists are often behind the Zeitgeist that is the BTL comments. They often get their stories from people who are already ahead of them in commenting and thinking.. sometimes by weeks.

      This is certainly one of these cases.

      But yes, so much nonsense laid on top.. almost poetic licence if it wasn’t so crassly wrong.

      He is lucky the comments were closed… Or he’d have had more missives from the Cyber Nats 🙂

    314. Dan says:

      @Dr Jim at 10.59am

      I attended a talk last night regarding the construct and ability of groups to produce positive outcomes in their chosen objectives.
      It was very interesting and I believe everyone in attendance recognised the common issues that constrain and limit beneficial performance.
      Examples of which can be:
      An overly rigid construct of a group that has a hierarchy or committee structure with those in positions of power not recognising the ideas and abilities of others within the group.
      Or people with egos that dominate, ignore, or suppress the abilities and input of others within the group.
      Or getting bogged down with excessive focus on procedural processes to decide the best way to facilitate and action the ultimate objective.

      The Indy movement needs to bypass Westminster controlled broadcasting. It is wasting an incredible amount of energy attempting to chip away at such a powerful organisation and expecting them to ever allow the pro Indy side a fair representation. There are other options that could be developed.
      Scroll through Led by Donkeys twitter feed to see what can be achieved.

      Lots of people on here can see that Led by Donkeys are getting on with pushing their agenda. Just what is the issue with our movement emulating a successful medium?

      I’ll ask again as it hasn’t been answered before when I inquired, and I know there are some techy types reading in.
      What sort of projector and associated kit is required to project images onto a building. What sort of costs are involved in that type of equipment?

    315. Ahundredthidiot says:

      On SNP selling Indy, this might help;

      Commit to a policy of non celebration on the very first Day and calendar Year of Independence

      Thereafter though……partay

    316. Cactus says:

      Afternoon Dorothy, howde you do, aye it was ah braw night last night, lots of lovely energy, ah’ve been doing post review and realised that as of last night… one has accumulated 17-in-a-row!

      Hehe 😉

    317. Dr Jim says:


      No I personally don’t pay a tax to own a TV but it’s for each individual to decide that for themselves and whether their nerves or the nerves of their families are up to it, it can be a frightening prospect for some folk to disobey what they believe is the law, so I’m not for having a go at anyone who does pay the tax

    318. galamcennalath says:

      Alan Bissett suggests BritNats in Scotland are currently engaged in a coup.

      coup – “illegal seizure of power from a government”

      Sounds about right if the believe that the Scottish people are sovereign and vest that power in elected representatives of their choice. The BritNats, no doubt, believe the ‘English model’ on sovereignty applies to the whole UK and therefore their parliament in London already has sovereign power over Scotland.

      This has to be the crux of the matter. We believe what we believe to be the truth and the reality. The people of Scotland are sovereign, absolutely.

      I guess BritNats will never actually accept that. Two things are probably necessary – clear majority views in Scotland and international acceptance of them.

    319. schrodingers cat says:

      standing pro indy candidates in any contituency in any election, general or holyrood, against the snp is a complete non starter. it would only succeed in these people being ostracised by the entire yes movement

    320. CameronB Brodie says:

      Why does the SNP not tell Scotland the reality of our lack of human rights? How Westminster owns us? I want freedom not mitigation.

    321. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t think the SNP should be soft selling at one minute to midnight.

    322. Golfnut says:

      @ hundrethidiot.

      Who exactly are the splitters.

      @ Robert Peffers.

      I agree with you, totally. Another party competing for the Indy vote, the Britnats would be laughing all the way to the voting booth. We already have a political party given a mandate by the electorate, The Scottish Parliament ratified the Scottish governments mandate and the timing, again crucial to our success. No arguments over that Robert, but we are making the SG/SNP do all the heavy lifting

    323. Mac says:

      @Dr Jim

      “No I personally don’t pay a tax to own a TV but it’s for each individual to decide that for themselves and whether their nerves or the nerves of their families are up to it, it can be a frightening prospect for some folk to disobey what they believe is the law, so I’m not for having a go at anyone who does pay the tax”

      Sure, I understand, but until people make the effort to resist something as fundamental as this, your dream of Indy supporters “creating inconvenience” is pie in the sky

      Serious about Indy = No to the BBC tax.

    324. Mac says:

      @Dr Jim

      What would Ghandi have done? 🙂

      Maybe got out and painted all the pillar boxes blue with a Saltire? 🙂

    325. Jack Murphy says:

      Petra posted a link last night at 10:11pm about Jeremy Hunt who is now Ruth Davidson’s THIRD choice as our Tory Prime Minister.

      Mr Hunt certainly does have ‘form’.

      One or two random facts about oor Ruth’s Jeremy Hunt:

      1.” In 2010, Hunt accused innocent football fans of hooliganism – suggesting they played a part in the death of the 96 people at the Hillsborough disaster – he was forced to apologise to the city of Liverpool the families of those killed. ”

      2.” In 2012, Hunt called for the abortion limit to be halved from 24 weeks to 12 weeks – a view described as “insulting to women” by medical professionals. ”

      PS. I bought the NATIONAL for the FIRST TIME on my way to work this morning.
      I will now get one every day.
      Dear Reader, have you? 🙂

    326. Dan says:

      Television = Drug of the Nation

      There’s far too many folk still addicted to it. So many just sitting on their arse watching someone else dance, cook, garden, get fit, do up their house, etc, when they could be doing it for real.

      My name is Dan and I’ve been clean for 15 years…

    327. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bobp says: 27 June, 2019 at 12:15 pm:

      ” … RP 11.50am fair enough I’ll concede to you on that. But I still think we need to be a little more belligerent.”

      Who is it that’s stopping you, Bobp? There are protocols that dictate how elected people should behave in their respective places of work and I would assert that several SNP MPs at Westminster are pushing the limits to the extreme as it is. Ian Blackford is on very thin ice during most sessions.

      It is not the done thing at Westminster to call other MPs liars and Ian has been very close to getting himself expelled from the debating chamber almost every day – but what good would it do if he got expelled?

      The SNP would have been without a leader for however many sittings the speaker decided to ban him? Nicola and the SG must stay within those rules but we do not. In any case it is up to all of us to decide whether being aggressive or being reasonable is the best approach in any particular circumstance. Sometimes being aggressive will win the argument but lose a possible convert.

      If you go chapping doors you are going to get all sorts of reactions and it has to be said that aggressiveness is not usually very conducive to winning converts.

    328. Golfnut says:

      @Robert Peffers.
      Sorry that last one seemed to post all by itself.

      Anyway, my point is that it is the Yes movement that needs to up its game, start thinking out of the box, provide the SG with something to beat the shit out of Westminster with, rock the establishments assumed authority and their smoke and mirrors unaccountable superiority towards Scotland. Breeks is right, there have been lots opportunities for the establishment to have been challenged, but it was us, the people, who should have lead it.

    329. Dr Jim says:

      *Journalists* like Bryan Taylor will say things like:

      *The Scottish government *asserts* it has a mandate for Independence* knowing 100% perfectly well they don’t *assert* it, it’s a fact

      Then Bryan Taylor will say *The UK government *says* the SNP don’t have a mandate for Independence*

      Again from Bryan Taylor this is factually wrong, the UK government *says* is not a fact, it’s an *assertion* that he and his ilk report every day of the week as facts

      It has been driven in to the Scottish phsyche always that somehow people from England are more important than our own home grown people
      Most folk will remember working for companies and the boss or bosses were English and the workers most of the time complained of them being idiots and didn’t know what they were talking about and wondered how they ever got the job

      I worked for some years in a large music shop in Glasgow that was sold to Littlewoods who then appointed a new shiny general manager imported from England and he was as previously described and idiot who knew absolutely nothing about the music business

      After some investigation as to this man’s bona fides we the experienced musician staff found out he had been a security man at a Littlewoods warehouse in Liverpool

      That shop was Cuthbertsons music shop in Cambridge street Glasgow which those of you old enough to remember closed really rapidly after Littlewoods takeover

      But they all looked up to him when he arrived, well you have to don’t you, he was from the big England where they all know better than us

    330. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Scottish sovereignty. Trying to get folk to believe they are a triangle when they think they are an oblong, is working against the grain. Telling them that the full-English Brexit forces them to be a rectangle is starting to work with the grain. It is a sad fact but it is easier to motivate political action through fear of loss, than hope of gain.

    331. Socrates MacSporran says:

      BBC Shortbread lunchtime news, less than a minute ago.

      Michelle Ballantyne MSP reveals she will be backing Boris. That’s it, absolute proof, the lunatic fringe of the Toerag party is backing the looney candidate for leader – who’d have thunked it.

    332. call me dave says:

      My old wifie reader of the Daily Mail waxing lyrical in the cafe this morning about the vaccine for cervical cancer being a good thing.

      We nod sagely and agree and move on to discuss the royals etc.

      But I was a bit perplexed because I remember the vaccine thing being news a few years ago. So I checked and it is indeed a big news story today on big auntie’s web site darn Sarf.

      Anyhoo! The Aussies, if I remember, were first to use it and the the FM and SG offered it in 2008 to younger girls at school etc.
      They even stuck in some money for more research.

      So I found this on the shortbread site and archived it.
      Am I missing something or is it just a convenient good news story to lighten the mood South of the wall?


      Been out all morning travelling and walking (Leven beach & East Neuk etc)

      Radio 5 on in the car (stopped eating shortbread news) much discussion on Johnston V Hunt and the airways hot with Jeremy’s tweet about ‘little Englander Brexiteers’.

      Maybe he doesn’t want to win now that Ruthie’s got his back.

      Best not split the SNP vote and there’s to be a by-election for Tavish. I thought he was staying until the next election. Jings!

    333. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 09:07,

      We’ve said this before, it’s a chicken-and-egg thing. Yes, Nicola & Co can’t make their Big Move until sufficient people can be brought along with them, but neither can they just sit around passively in the hope that circumstances will do all the heavy lifting. You have to energise and activate the public, give them a hope that there is a better solution worth striving for.

      Frankly, it’s not enough to be doing all sorts of useful preparatory things in petto, however necessary these may be. There has to be a significant inspirational public dimension as well. Just think back to the HoC walkout as an example of how people can be motivated.

      I refer again to the article in yesterday’s National, which gets to the heart of this:

      Proposing “better mitigation” as the immediate way forward, if that’s the Grand Plan, is absolutely NOT the answer. =grinds teeth=

      That motivates nobody. All it does is give the waverers more heart that the SG will enable them to cling on to their delusion that the evils of the UK can somehow continue to be “managed away”, so they can carry on as things stand without having to confront the ever-more-pertinent issue of independence.

      “Mitigation” is a kind of methadone for UK addicts. It keeps people hopelessly dependent.

      The SG is fooling itself, and moreover every essential convert besides, if it thinks it can mitigate Brexit. It shouldn’t even be holding out a sliver of that forlorn hope.

    334. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 27 June, 2019 at 1:06 pm:

      … I guess BritNats will never actually accept that. Two things are probably necessary – clear majority views in Scotland and international acceptance of them.”

      That’s the powerful bit, galamcennalath, but I’d suggest only the first bit really matters. International acceptance will follow if the first part is achieved. Does anyone really doubt the Republic of Ireland is not legitimately an independent nation?

      The last thing a newly independent Scotland needs is anti-social next door neighbours. I cannot speak for other Wingers but I do not feel any animosity to the normal Englanders. It is Westminster and the English ruling class who consider themselves, “Born to lead”, who get right up my nose.

      However, believe me in 50 years as an industrial Civil Servant in the MOD I met some really unpleasant Englanders – mind you I met some really unpleasant Scots as well, but it was the Englander’s with an exceptionalism bit that was hard to bear.

    335. galamcennalath says:

      Mac says:

      I think some of you will enjoy this read…

      Interesting. Some with wishful thinking that the UK and Union might evolve, which I would say was an opportunity thrown away by rising English Nationalism. Some others being more realistic and accepting the genie was out of the lamp and all that London won was some time.

    336. ronnie anderson says:

      I went to Argos in 2014 to buy a new telly £400 + got to the till card in hand name address ect DO U HAVE A TV LICENCE F%*& MANAGER ( young guy brought up in the scheme ) ok Ronnie forget it & I’ll pass on your objections to Argos HQ .



    337. Robert Peffers says:

      @Welsh Sion says: 25 June, 2019 at 11:05 pm:

      ” … So, don’t get *too* sympathetic with him, either, Scotland!
      (We Welshies have subsequently got our on back on him.”

      No, Welsh Sion, no fear of sympathy for that person on my part but do you mind if I refer to, “you welshies”, as, “The people of Wales”? So much better a description I believe.

    338. schrodingers cat says:

      dugdale offski
      ruthie sniffing about nicolas soames near vacant seat in england
      tavish scott offski

      rats deserting a sinking ship?

      maybe they know summat we dont?


    339. call me dave says:

      How significant is Scotland’s ‘No’ vote? Historians debate.
      Scotland has chosen to remain in the United Kingdom, voting ‘No’

      Article archived for those who don’t click linky things: 🙂

      @schrodingers cat

      Ruthie’s nostils flaring…indeed. HUNTing for a safe haven. 🙂

    340. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Golfnut @ 1:19

      ‘who are the Splitters?’

      Anyone suggesting any party other than the SNP can be the political vehicle to drive us to Independence.

    341. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert J Sutherland 2:04pm

      I agree, mitigation of Westminsters behaviour only ends one way, the point where Holyrood can mitigate no more then they fall prey to the opposition for refusing to continue to care

      It’s a Unionist dream scenario, unless there’s (here goes the phrase) something we don’t know, and I hate saying it because it’s really annoying to be in the dark but at the same time hoping there’s a good reason for us being in the dark

      Most people I think basically trust the FM and that’s fine, but nobody will live on trust forever and at some point that trust will break if folk don’t begin to see any prospect of what they hope for, so the FM has a tight timing decision to make before that time comes so let’s hope she has a good watch that signals danger danger Will Robinson

      In the meantime we’ve got to find ways of making more noise

    342. Sinky says:

      Union Jack Ian Murray in Edinburgh Evening News with usual anti SNP rant demanding that we spend more mitigating Tory policies and praising Gordon Brown on poverty without mentioning that the gap between rich and poor widened under last Labour Government which had all the powers unlike the Scottish government

    343. galamcennalath says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      ruthie sniffing about nicolas soames near vacant seat in england

      And it would good riddance, they are welcome to her. Although we have a low opinion of her, among Scottish BritNats she astonishingly has some credibility. So, her pissing off would be helpful to our cause.

      Sounds a good plan. But here’s the thing, would the people of West Sussex welcome a ‘sweat sock’ as MP?

    344. manandboy says:


      Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal claims rubbished by GUY VERHOFSTADT. EU Brexit coordinator likens Tory frontrunner’s claims to ‘false promises’ of referendum

      Guy Verhofstadt,

      “Boris Johnson’s claims about the prospects of rewriting the Brexit deal have been compared by the European parliament’s Brexit coordinator to the “false promises, pseudo-patriotism, and foreigner-bashing” he is said to have used to win the referendum.

      The suggestion from the Tory leadership frontrunner that he will be able to dump Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement, withhold the UK’s £39bn divorce bill and still negotiate a free trade deal in Brussels has been savaged by Guy Verhofstadt.

      The former prime minister of Belgium said Johnson’s assertion during the current leadership campaign was a myth. In a withering assessment of the race between Johnson and Jeremy Hunt, who also claims he will be able to renegotiate the deal, Verhofstadt said it appeared they have “learned nothing whatsoever”.

      The EU has repeatedly said it will not renegotiate the agreement struck and that the UK will crash out unless the Commons ratifies the full package, including the protocol containing the so-called Irish backstop for avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland.

      Describing Johnson as the Vote Leave campaign’s “most prominent architect” and “a man who continues to dissemble, exaggerate, and disinform”, Verhofstadt said he appeared to be unable to stop spreading “untruths”.

      “Chief among them is the myth that Britain can tear up the withdrawal agreement that May negotiated with the EU, withhold its financial commitments to the bloc, and simultaneously start negotiating free trade deals,” Verhofstadt said. “To Johnson’s followers, however, he is more prophet than politician: only he can deliver a mythical ‘true Brexit’ that will deliver the prosperity promised during the referendum campaign.”

      He added: “As is often the case with populists, reality does not square with Johnson’s ensorcelling combination of false promises, pseudo-patriotism, and foreigner-bashing.

      “He and his fellow Brexiteers speak of a ‘global Britain’ that will trade freely with the rest of the world, even as they drag their country down a path strewn with uprooted trade ties and substantial new barriers to commerce.”

      Johnson has said he believes that with “positive energy” he will be able to either persuade Brussels to ditch the backstop, which would otherwise keep the UK in a customs union until another border solution is found, or agree to a “standstill” in the current relations through article 24 of the general agreement on tariffs and trade.

      The latter claim has been described as “not true” by the international trade secretary, Liam Fox, among others. He pointed out that article 24 requires EU agreement, which Brussels has said it will not give.

      The EU is due to announce the finalising of a trade deal with the Mercosur bloc – Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, and Uruguay – that will reduce tariffs on European products being exported to those countries.

      The EU has been keen to further burnish its trade credentials after enjoying a purple patch of negotiations, including with Japan, with whom it struck the world’s largest bilateral free trade deal.

      “With Johnson likely taking power in late July, Europe will have offered still more proof that Brexit is not only unnecessary but also detrimental to Britain’s economic interests,” Verhofstadt writes in an article for Project Syndicate. “The ‘buccaneering’ Brexiteers might then finally have to explain what it is they’re still complaining about.”

      Meanwhile, as Finland takes over the six-month rotating presidency of the EU, the country’s minister of European affairs, Tytti Tuppurainen, said the UK needed to “define for herself both the answers and the basic rules of the game” in the Brexit conundrum, in a sign of the growing frustration with Britain.”

    345. manandboy says:

      Boris Johnson is like a man asleep, dreaming of riches, position and power, and living in a stately home. But on waking, he finds himself in a tent – with Jeremy Hunt alongside him.

    346. Frank Gillougley says:

      Robert Peffers 8.08

      You wrote, ‘Is this a clue …’regarding Nicola’s speech to the Law Society of Scotland the other day.

      Hi Robert,

      I’m a supporter, a believer and grateful that you’re there. My query is this. Would you care to take 2 mins and expand, please, on your too brief post and how you read her speech?

      I understand Macs later comments on the conservative context in which she spoke and I did notice her operative verb ‘can’ which in my book is not ‘must’, or ‘will’ but only ‘can’. Other commentators such as peter bell have been troubled by this.

      ”If we do that, we can live up to Eddie Morgan’s “deepest dearest wish”. And we can ensure that the next 20 years of devolution, are even more successful than those which have passed.”

      Go on, go on…

    347. Robert Peffers says:

      @Golfnut says:27 June, 2019 at 1:32 pm

      ” … my point is that it is the Yes movement that needs to up its game, start thinking out of the box, provide the SG with something to beat the shit out of Westminster with, rock the establishments assumed authority and their smoke and mirrors unaccountable superiority towards Scotland. “

      Want to know what the YES movement needs to do, Golfnut>

      If every YES movement person just concentrated on just one unionist each and we got just a 10% success rate of No to Yes converts then Nicola could call referendum2, win it and present No.10 Downing Street with a Declaration of Independence, (and I know just where she can find a document to base her Declaration of Independence on). Now bear in mind this would not be a declaration of independence by the SNP or the SG.

      It would be a declaration of Independence by the legally sovereign people of Scotland. Nicola would only be the Post Lady who delivered the message sent by a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

      Put it this way – why complicate matters? The People of Scotland are legally sovereign. Westminster has already conceded The Scottish Claim of Right, and now a majority of the people of Scotland are taking back their legal sovereignty. Could it be any more simple?

      That is all that has ever been needed to end the union and the Scottish Claim of Right goes way back before the union began.

    348. Dr Jim says:

      All Boris Johnson and the Tories have done is build a Golden Calf for England to worship at promising riches and more gold
      and when the Ten Commandments that are WTO rules get thrown at it the flames and devastation of their exploding Brexit Golden Calf will be seen and heard right around the world

      When it does happen I hope Scotland does not lift one finger to help England in any way, they must learn to displace their political leaders just as Scotland displaced the Labour and Tory parties here

      They didn’t learn from Ireland, maybe they’ll learn from Scotland, although you know, I doubt it

    349. Cubby says:


      “Serious about Indy = no to BBC Tax”

      What a stupid statement.

      1. I have no problem with people not paying the tax if that’s what they want to do. Some people may not live alone and others may not want the hassle. It’s easy if you live alone to make that decision. So why don’t you get off your high horse. I agree with Dr Jim. It is a totally different matter from buying a Britnat paper. Buying a paper is a wholly personal and independent decision.

      2. The government will still fund the BBC no matter what so it will not affect their ability to broadcast. The Britnat media do not care if independence supporters watch their broadcasts. The propaganda is designed to hold on to the Britnats.

      You replied to me last time on this subject with a big yawn. Is that the best you can do? Why don’t you try justifying that statement or do we all agree that Mac has decided that there are real Independence supporters and second class supporters. All bow to Mac.

    350. galamcennalath says:

      Boris Johnson talks absolute bollocks and the UK media fail to hold him to account. Nothing new here. Exactly what we’ve come to expect. He should publically eviscerated for behaving like this.

      He’s too seasoned an operator to actually believe in fairies and unicorns. He’s lying, again.

      BJ is playing to voters – all 120k of them, maybe 0.25% of the electorate. But what does this say about how he views those folks …. clearly as total numpties who he thinks will actually believe him.

      Wake up Scots, THIS is the way our future is being decided unless we act soon.

    351. Dr Jim says:

      The Tories are engaged in OutBrexiting Farage in order to hold their party together

      Now nobody in their right mind would contemplate Nigel Farage as Prime Minister so why on earth would anybody contemplate something even worse and even further to the right than they already are

      The Tories have already been described as Populists by political figures around the world, Populist is the modern media name for guess what, N…. it’s just nobody wants to say it out loud

      Wakey Wakey!

    352. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 27 June, 2019 at 2:04 pm

      ” … We’ve said this before, it’s a chicken-and-egg thing. Yes, Nicola & Co can’t make their Big Move until sufficient people can be brought along with them, but neither can they just sit around passively in the hope that circumstances will do all the heavy lifting.”

      Oh! For the love of God! When are you dreamers going to get it?

      Nicola fired the starting pistol some time ago. I posted the link to the SNP website here on Wings fairly soon afterwards.

      So what happened? Probably most of you didn’t bother going and reading the message Nicola gave you to get out there and start campaigning.


      Was it because it wasn’t reported by Radio Jockland, BBC TV or the Daily Record?

      It was right there on the SNP Website a plea from the First Minister of the Scottish Parliament, The leader of the SNP and she might as well never bothered. Yet here you all are asking What are the SNP doing about it?
      What is the SG doing about it?
      What is Nicola Sturgeon Doing about it?
      What is Ian Blackford Doing about it?
      Why are not the SNP MPs walking out of Westminster about it?

      Don’t you get it after all this time?
      None of the above are, as individuals or as a group, “The Legally Sovereign People of Scotland”, and that is the only group of people who can, only as a majority, legally claim back their legal sovereignty to end the United Kingdom.


    353. Scozzie says:

      “And we can ensure the next 20 years of devolution are even more successful of those which have passed”.
      Well that’s a troubling statement from our FM!

      Nicola Sturgeon is often quoted on these BTL comments for being super careful for her wording, the closing line in her speech to the Law Society does not bode well if all she hopes to achieve is more powers and more successful devolution. Only one reference in the entire speech of independence!

      We have BoJo about to be anointed as PM; Bojo and j c**T shouting no to indyref2; Brexit looming in 120 days – ffs this is not a ‘call to action’ speech in any sense of the word.
      The SNP really need to up their game. If they are treading softly, softly, with speeches like these, how do they expect the Law Society to get behind the principles of independence; let alone the population to get active and start pushing for change.

      At this stage of the game the language should be ramping up. If this rhetoric continues I can see a ‘vote SNP for another super doper mandate in 2021’ being proposed again from the likes of Pete Wishart and co. Disappointing to say the least.

    354. Golfnut says:

      @ Robert Peffers.

      Direct one to one contact with No voters, is that not what we are doing now Robert. Slowly but surely we are getting there. I’m not talking about converting no voters, I’m talking about educating people about what sovereignty is and just how much power individually and collectively the people of Scotland have because I have to tell you Robert most people including a lot Yes voters haven’t a Scooby.
      Do you think the likes of Vine or indeed any of the media or politician would be spouting the kind of pish we heard the other day if the SG had been instructed by us to instigate a judicial review on what criminal charges could brought against them for facilitating the theft of our resources through lies and misinformation.
      Can imagine the uproar if that was debated in our parliament.
      What if we ordered the Queen to explain why she signed the the Withdrawal Bill, do you think people would begin to get an idea of what power they have.
      Right now we are being told what we can’t do, what we won’t be allowed to do. 300 years of indoctrination needs to be countered.

    355. Iain mhor says:

      I was musing on the phrase “Devolution forever” I came across BTL (apologies I can’t recall who posted) and was contemplating the Commonwealth and Dominions of the UK. They effectively, for a long period of their histories, would have been labouring under a scenario of ‘Devolution forever’ yet most ultimitely did not.

      It primarily hinged on their status’ within the UK etc. I was thinking of “Dominion Status” (in particular, New Zealand) and realised that the UK’s Dominions were and are afforded more rights and powers of self determination than Scotland. The primary one was recognition of their existence. It’s an irony when we argue that Scotland is ‘dominated’ by its so-called ‘Partner in Union’. Scotland is either an equal partner in the Union or it surely must be a Dominion, if neither, then what is it? We know the de-facto answer to that.

      Scotland can’t be a Dominion of the UK, unless it is not an actual partner of the UK. The UK states that Scotland is not a partner, yet cannot be a Dominion – Scotland is a Region.
      That last part is really what most fail to grasp. Scotland has no status. The UK proceeds, as it always has, under the basis that Scotland the nation state, was extinguished; that Scotland is therefore, merely a region of the UK and its Parliament, no more than a glorified regional council.
      They also argue that an Independent Scotland would be a ‘Sevco Scotland’ and that its pursual of Independent status is a regional ‘secession’ and not a dissolving of a Union. All this, despite the many obvious anomalies, is the de-facto state of affairs.

      The question is and always has been, the anomaly of one side considering the constitutional status of Scotland within the unitary state of the United Kingdom of GB & N.I and the other, its status within a Union of Kingdoms (I realise this is apoplexy territory for the estemmed Mr RP) The point though, is that one side is framing and defining the issue on its terms alone and barely opposed. Scotland is not (or certainly does not appear to be) framing and defining the issue in its opposite particularly effectively; in fact, it is treading some risible middle ground between the two definitions – this is confusing and lacks strength of argument.

      The de-facto status of Scotland, as it is perceived by “the other side”, is manifest in the mindset of the vaccuous entities shown in the video above. The alternative concept does not exist for them, they are barely exposed to the concept. In the vanishingly small cases that a vague alternative concept enters their world, it is precisely that – vague.

      Sadly, the vagueness of Scotland’s status is barely perceived by too many people actually within Scotland itself. The only ones absolutely sure, are the “British”, the ‘Yoons’, or whatever appelation we are ascribing to them today – for the rest of Scots – they don’t know.
      The Scottish government would do well to reframe and press its own definition of Scotlands status within the Union more clearly. The SNP within the Government, is trying to do that – how effectively is moot. We, at grassroots level need to push it harder. We need to point out the anomaly, the fact that the Scotland people think they live in, the ‘equal partner, the Scottish nation, is not the Scotland which exists today – Scotland effectively does not exist.

      When Scots understand that the Independence movement is fighting for Scotlands actual existence, not merely its Independence, then we shall surely see a marked change in attitude. Devolution will be shortlived, devolution is non-existence – Devolution is and should be, absolute anathema to all Scots.
      ‘Dominion’ status, for all its negative connotations, is at least existence and Dominions ultimitely throw their shackles. We only need Scotland to actually have the courage to exist and its Independence is inevitable.

    356. Hamish100 says:


      One audience hears one thing another something’s no slightly different. Don’t fall into the trap. Unless of course you are one of the underminers!

    357. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers

      You know Robert that the Yes movement could put 1 million people on the streets and the media will not report it, so in effect it didn’t happen

      The FM understandably has two jobs SNP leader and FM, it surely must be time now that the leader of the SNP part of her job is to front the movement she asked the people to create and energise in order to attract the media who will then report on it even if it’s to denigrate it they’ll turn up and film it like they used to when she and Alex Salmond did it before, me and no matter how many people like me marching is not news anymore, the FM is

      In this way it makes the British news as well and ramps up the intent

      I’m a huge admirer of the FM but she has to make a decision on this, the FM has to lead and lead visibly or it’s just a bunch of people going for a walk waving a flag to be reported after cat up a tree story

    358. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says:27 June, 2019 at 3:24 pm:

      Cubby, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.

      The TV Licence, if you bother reading it, is permission FROM THE GOVERNMENT, to watch live TV.

      The BBC, or the BBC’s paid agents, are charged by the government to collect the licence fee and issue the paper licence. However, as the licence fee is due to the government it would be illegal if the BBC kept it. What happens is the TV Licence money is turned over to HM Treasury and is added to general taxation.

      Then the government agrees with the BBC to pay the BBC an annual grant for services rendered by the BBC for the Government. The Government also negotiates a BBC Charter with the BBC.

      So the truth is, (and they don’t want you to know this), the TV Licence money does not fund the BBC but the Government grant is from general taxation and that means no matter if you pay for a licence or not then, by paying general taxation, you are paying for the BBC. Remember, though, that the BBC is a private company and sells programmes and other things all over the World

      Also remember that the BBC World Service goes out all over the World and the United Kingdom tax payer pays for it.

    359. Cubby says:

      Bobp @ 12.58pm

      I commend you for being big enough to change your mind.

    360. Welsh Sion says:

      Robert Peffers @ 2.25 pm

      You can call us what you like so long as its complimentary. “y Cymry” would be even better as “Welsh” alludes to “Wales” ( = the country of the foreigners/Romanised ones) in Anglo-Saxon. 🙂

    361. Proud Cybernat says:


      How many pf the 77th Brigade who post here trying to divert, disrupt and deflect discussion here about Scotland’s prospect at regaining its independence have, in fact, become persuaded by our arguments and now don’t enjoy their job at trying to undermine this site? Come on – there must be at least one or two of you now persuaded by the cause of Scottish Indy.

      Asking for a friend.

    362. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain mhor says: 27 June, 2019 at 4:18 pm:

      ” … The question is and always has been, the anomaly of one side considering the constitutional status of Scotland within the unitary state of the United Kingdom of GB & N.I and the other, its status within a Union of Kingdoms (I realise this is apoplexy territory for the estemmed Mr RP).”

      Oh! Dear!

      First of all, Iain, it has been a great many years since any of this stuff even got me upset.

      Secondly what you are saying in this post is, more or less, exactly what I’ve been saying since I was 10 years old and I’m in my mid eighties now.

      Not only have I often pointed out the Westminster Commissioned paper by two, “Experts”, that claims the Westminster view that the Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as, “The United Kingdom”, but have posted a link to the Secretary of State foragainst Scotland admitting he claimed just that. That is Westminster claims, (wrongly), that England absorbed Scotland as a region of England by the Treaty of Union.

      I have also consistently maintained the legal truth that the Treaty of Union unites two, equally sovereign kingdoms to form the United Kingdom and the union, a.k.a. The United Kingdom ends when the Scotland and England kingdoms part company. Not to mention that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign but the people of England are Her Majesty’s Subjects but she is our subject.

      All of which is what you seem to have just discovered. So why do you imagine I would be apoplectic?

    363. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers@4.31pm

      Unfortunately, some people either forget this or have not read your many many posts on this point. Not me of course. LOL

    364. Frank Gillougley says:

      Robert Peffers 1.32 and 3.52

      Well, you’ve answered my query.

      Ironically, we don’t need the SNP’s ‘approval’ for each and every one to act on a daily basis, now.

    365. auld highlander says:

      There are nearly twenty one thousand bbc employees according to wiki, and going by this a lot of them are grossly overpaid.

      Forty local radio stations plus tv channels.

      That takes a lot of tax revenue to keep the propaganda pumping.

    366. gus1940 says:

      Is it not the case that withdrawal of our EU Citizenship against our wishes and the rights that go with it is a blatant breech of our Human Rights?

      If so let’s go to The UN.

    367. Petra says:

      @ Ronnie at 4:04pm. “Flamingo land.”

      Thanks for that Ronnie. Great news.

    368. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says:27 June, 2019 at 4:30 pm:

      ” … The FM understandably has two jobs SNP leader and FM, it surely must be time now that the leader of the SNP part of her job is to front the movement she asked the people to create and energise in order to attract the media …

      Dr Jim, as I point out elsewhere on this thread that the FM had announced on the SNP website that she was firing the starting pistol and I posted the link to it here on Wings.

      Neither she or I needed have bothered for there was no reaction from the rank & file why should have been sharpening their pitchforks and getting the claymores out of the thatch sharpening them and rubbing them down with Hamerite Kurust.

      What was the result, though?

      Well, just like today, lots and lots of comments that the FM was too comfortable as FM. That the SNP were not now wanting independence and not a bloody word on the TV, Radio or in the dead tree press.

      Just look at the comments right here on this thread.

      Now here’s the thing, it is the people of Scotland, as a population, who are legally sovereign and it is only a majority of the people of Scotland who can reclaim their sovereignty. The FM can only be the post lady who delivers the declaration of independence that ends the union to Westminster it is the legally sovereign people of Scotland that must demand it.

      It isn’t Nicola Sturgeon who is letting us down it is we who let her down.

    369. Iain mhor says:

      @Robert Peffers 5:04pm

      I haven’t ‘recently’ discovered any of this Robert, its merely a reiteration and reforming of many similar posts I have shared in the past – much like your good self.
      Perhaps ‘apoplexy’ is an exageration, I apologise for the insinuation. I was merely acknowledging your many posts on the subject and the standards you hold everyone to in the event of ‘error’, however inadvertent.
      In the interests of brevity and simplification, sometimes posts such as mine, may err for argument in minutiae and consequently earn a correction from you – I’m glad I didn’t earn such a correction – I’m happy we are on a similar wavelength.

      I don’t wish though to distract from the (albeit verbose) point I was making viz : that UK Dominions* were and are afforded higher nation status than Scotland. Scotland de-facto has no ‘Nation Status’ The de-jure argument is moot as it has not, as we know, ever been put to the proof.
      Only on that point would I disagree slightly with your claim of ‘legal facts’ about Scotland’s Status. We both wish, or believe it to be the case, but in the absence of a current re-affirmarion of such ‘de-jure’ legality; we must acknowledge the de-facto situation : Scotland is currently a stateless region; further, it is in grave danger of an engineered coup, to ensure de-facto actually does becomes de-jure – their law, not ours.


      “..autonomous communities within the British Empire, equal in status, in no way subordinate one to another in any aspect of their domestic or external affairs, though united by a common allegiance to the Crown and freely associated as members of the British Commonwealth of Nations.”

      The main characteristics of dominion status were complete legislative authority as provided in the Statute of Westminster (1931) and, in the executive sphere, the right of dominion ministers to direct access to the sovereign. Internationally, it connoted the recognition of the dominions (except Newfoundland) as separate states, entitled to separate representation in the League of Nations and other international bodies, to appoint their own ambassadors, and to conclude their own treaties. At the same time, the dominions were not considered to stand in the same relation to the United Kingdom or among themselves as foreign countries. After 1947 the use of the expression was abandoned because it was thought in some quarters to imply a form of subordination, and the phrase “members of the Commonwealth” came into use”

      Etc etc.

    370. twathater says:

      @ Dr Jim I read all of your posts and they are usually very entertaining but the one posted at 4.30 pm is IMO the MOST important one that you have posted , YOU are absolutely correct Nicola and as many SNP and Green msp’s and mp’s should attend and front every March they can , we HAVE to show the world that we are serious and adamant that independence is here
      We have to FORCE the MSM to recognise the strength of the PEOPLE , we have to show them we will NOT BE IGNORED ,
      aside from that do you recognise the BOOST this will give to the YES movement , the belief that once again our FM is serious and focused on the independence of Scotland and not some devolution promises

      This to me would be a game changer and a refreshing BOOST to the movement , as others have said and know she is a people person she needs to be LOUD AND PROUD and visibly leading

    371. Petra says:

      One great article after another in the National. Run by a small band of dedicated workers doing their utmost, on our behalf, on a shoestring budget.

      We owe them. Buy it or subscribe. Use it or lose it.

    372. Robert Peffers says:

      @Frank Gillougley says:27 June, 2019 at 5:13 pm:

      … Ironically, we don’t need the SNP’s ‘approval’ for each and every one to act on a daily basis, now.”

      I’m just wasting my time here on Wings, Frank. No one ever needed the SNP’s approval. First of all the SNP, (the hierarchy), do not make SNP policy. Policy can only be made by the delegates who are chosen and sent by the rank & file members to national conference.

      These are, “Delegates”, and it is their place to take the branch membership decided motions to conference and to vote upon them and the motions of the other branches. The hierarchy only have one vote each just like every other member. So, in practice it is the rank and file who decide party policy.

      In essence the hierarchy are the member’s employees not the other way round, unlike all other parties. There are no card votes in the SNP. What is more if you are not an SNP member why would you be under their orders.

      Which is why the SNP will not interfere with AUOB or YES groups. So why are people, not in the SNP, criticising Nicola for not leading them? Mind you they may/will tell you what they think.

      If you think back to indyref1 it wasn’t the SNP that led the Yes movement. The great thing about the yes movement was it was spontaneous right across Scotland and if you are a member you can attend branch and tell them.

    373. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 15:52,

      Oh dear, another sadly predictable response from Mr. Crusty. I suggest you try reading the article in today’s issue of that well-known media enemy of independence The National by that well-known opponent of independence, Lesley Riddoch, who writes:

      Well, the absence of an active inependence campaign isn’t helping. […] Some tangible, fleshed-out and freshly-baked independent alternatives to Brexiting Britain would come in gey useful now.

      Did you manage to stir yourself sufficiently to read and (even more difficult for you) comprehend that other article I referenced? If you were able to grasp their common point, it might begin to cure you of your insufferable passivity and complacency.

      But anyway, seems that I’m by no means alone in wanting a tad more inspiration, whatever you may think.

      Yes, I’m a dreamer. Unashamedly. Just like the hundreds of thousands of other independence supporters who can see a better future waiting out there for us, now tantalisingly within reach. If we only have the energy and gumption to stir ourselves to take it, instead of paying any attention whatever to lone voices as cripplingly negative as yours.

    374. Capella says:

      Petra says:
      27 June, 2019 at 5:42 pm
      @ Ronnie at 4:04pm. “Flamingo land.”

      Thanks for that Ronnie. Great news.

      Good news indeed. Let’s hope the SG doesn’t call it in and overturn the decision as they did with the TRUMP DEVELOPMENT.

    375. Republicofscotland says:

      Another night, another veiled attack on the Scottish government’s flagship hospital the Southern General by STV news.

      This time the ultra unionist “news” channel which takes any opportunity to mention pigeon droppings along with the hospital, appeared to give its backing to an independent body (Unionist clique) outwith the S&G, set up to nitpick everthing and anything with regards to the hospital.

      At one point the actual existence (build of the hospital) came into question. The unionist Britnats are desperate to smear the flagship hospital.

    376. call me dave says:

      Oh Jings!

      STV news darn Sarf scorching Scotland as the drug death country of Europe. We’re very very bad today folks. 🙁

      Obviously checked the BBC shortbread web site and tumbleweed!

      Nevertheless it is a problem! 🙁


      Meanwhile on her last working day. Kezia Break warning us.

      Dugdale says Corbyn could allow indyref2

    377. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is no longer a debate about independence or unionism. It has become a debate about liberty and slavery. I just wish the SNP was to extend the logic of their policy base, which is in accord with UN sustainability principles, to it’s position re. British constitutional legal practice. British constitutional law exists, the full-English Brexit obliterates its moral law justification. However, I’m not sure if this point of law will be exploited to our benefit. That is a worry.

      Constitutionalism, Hegel, and Us

      Constitutionalism is in crisis—obviously in Europe, more arguably in America. High on the list of intellectual breakthroughs that might help us sort through our contemporary confusions is Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel’s Philosophy of Right – to my mind, the best book ever written on the subject.

      Argh! Barf! Say what?

      I get it. In Hegel’s system, the constitution (Verfassung) is closely associated with “the State.” In the Philosophy of Right, the constitution is virtually synonymous with “the internal law of the state” (das innere Staatsrecht.) In other words, it is tied to the State as “the march of God in the world.” All that, plus the abstruse metaphysics, makes us cringe. And Hegel’s institutional prescription—“Let’s hear it for constitutional monarchy”— is unlikely to dispel the discomfort. You don’t have to subscribe to any of that, though, to learn a great deal from Hegel—in particular, his critique of liberalism….

    378. Dorothy Devine says:

      Apparently we are the drug capital of Europe and Dundee is the worst. A most earnest first report on ITN news. Numbers fudged but much horror and outrage expressed.

      I would like some reliable ,trustworthy person to investigate and provide accurate numbers on drug deaths as I mistrust the MSM and their willing lackeys.

      BDTT perhaps you can throw some light on Dundee’s tragedy?

    379. Dorothy Devine says:

      Apparently we are the drug capital of Europe and Dundee is the worst. A most earnest first report on ITN news. Numbers fudged but much horror and outrage expressed.

      I would like some reliable ,trustworthy person to investigate and provide accurate numbers on drug deaths as I mistrust the MSM and their willing lackeys.

      BDTT perhaps you can throw some light on your home town!

    380. Dorothy Devine says:

      Oops sorry!

    381. Robert Peffers says:

      Let’s consider that often our preconceived points of view colour our views of things but what if we have no preconceived views?

      Now this one happened to me some years ago. I have a nice wee woodworking workshop with some nice woodworking machines.

      One day I was making an ornate set of cupboard doors for a dresser when a friend came dashing in with his wee daughter shouting, “Bob, Bob save my life I forgot to pick up my wife’s prescription when I was up the village. Could you look after the wee one while I dash up and get it before they close”.

      So I sat the wee girl down and fitted her with ear and eye defenders, (this pleased her greatly).

      Anyway she sat quiet as a wee mouse till her dad came back to collect the wee girl. He asked her what she had been doing. “Watching Bob do woodwork”, she said. “Oh!”, Says my friend, ” and what was Bob making?” “Sawdust”, says the wee girl.

      Now she wasn’t wrong- was she? She was totally unimpressed by the raised panel door with the intricate carved thistle pattern on the raised panel but very much impressed by the wood cuttings flying up the tube into the dust extractor.

      There you have it – different points of view.

    382. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Robert the people we need to make aware and jolt into the proceedings don’t look at websites, they wouldn’t even know what a website was unless a spider jumped out and bit them, much less even care, if people aren’t told that Independence is winning they automatically assume it’s losing, that’s human nature, you can’t be it if you don’t see it

      Every time the opposition appears on TV and claims there’s no appetite for Independence those people believe it’s fact because there’s no one to refute it and the broadcasters will not correct them or scrutinise them when they say it, so to them that means it must be true

      My grandchildren are members and they don’t even look at the website because it’s boring dull and dry
      It’s all very well for us lot who are geeky about all this stuff but thousands aren’t, they’re just waiting and waiting and they don’t see anything happening because the broadcasters are having an easy time keeping it well below the radar, we need publicity, razzmatazz, showbiz to move people, you can’t just keep turning up at doors saying the same thing over and over boring people to death when the question they all ask is *Aye but when because I’ve heard Nuthin and support’s going down isn’t it, they said so on the TV*

      The movement needs to be on Cooncil Telly right in their faces or they don’t see it and the only way to do it is to get the biggest deal we’ve got, Nicola Sturgeon to be right in front of their faces smiling surrounded by thousands cheering, then people will sit up and take notice and start making the decision the rest of us already have

      The bonus being the British national news will then pay attention and the momentum gathers by virtue of Westminster making stupid comments publicly live on the telly instead of Tweeting objections and denying Scotland’s rights in newspaper articles nobody reads and only we know about

      It’s also not a matter of the SNP interfering, the SNP is the political party of Independence, without them there is no Independence there’s only people walking around waving a flag and nobody, especially broadcasters are going to give that coverage because they’re against the whole thing, if there’s no political involvement things will stay exactly as they are and if you were a gamer you’d know that means *Timed out*

    383. Dr Jim says:

      Nobody makes a blockbuster movie without a star in the main role to sell it

    384. Breeks says:

      Golfnut says:
      27 June, 2019 at 1:19 pm
      @ hundrethidiot.

      Who exactly are the splitters.

      @ Robert Peffers.

      I agree with you, totally. Another party competing for the Indy vote, the Britnats would be laughing all the way to the voting booth.

      How very telling that first priorities are the SNP’s vote, not the Constitutional Principle of Scotland’s Sovereign integrity which, in case you hadn’t noticed, is currently under primary existential attack and attempted subjugation.

      The SNP already had a voting result to die for in 2015, returning 53 out of 56 SNP’s to Westminster, then did what with it??? Oh aye, trust me, trust me, we’ve got a plan, but it’s a secret plan we cannae let you in on. It’s a grand plan, Wishart as Speaker of the House, 20 more years of barnstorming devolution, and endless mitigation of Brexit, oh and don’t forget and freedom to self ID ourselves as animal, vegetable or mineral. Aye that sounds like quite a plan.

      125 days to Brexit. What’s the “real” plan? Sit on your arse while the clock ticks down like we did in March? As long as we defend the No.1 priority eh? SNP bums on seats.

      Call me a splitter? Go ahead. Knock yourself out. I passionately believe in the liberty of my Country, not the welfare of the SNP.

      “Another party competing for the Indy vote!!!”… Shock! Horror! Did that get your attention? Know what? You sound just like the smug Tories way back when they were fretting about a wee pressure group called UKIP laughing them all the way to the voting booth.

    385. Capella says:

      @ Dorothy Devine – a few months ago the news was full of stats about the high numbers of deaths from drugs in Scotland. But apparently, this was because old junkies were nearing the end of their lives and were passing away from damaged systems. In other words, they had acquired their habit decades ago under the auspices of the Unionists.

      So I would take the horror stories with a pinch of salt. Remember too that the Scottish Government wanted to open drug rooms so that people could be using under supervision as a harm reduction measure. But the Home Office refused permission. This is a reserved matter so the SG can do little about it except mitigate as usual.

      Another problem is the influx of designer drugs which can be bought over the internet. Nobody has any idea what is in them and so deaths occur. Supervised drug use would remove this danger.

      Back in the 60s people could get supplies from their doctor thus keeping dealing off the streets. Of course, the Heath government made that illegal and street dealing rocketed with the profits to be made. More and more customers had to be found. Prohibition always benefits the bad guys.

      I don’t suppose they mentioned any of that on ITN.

    386. Legerwood says:

      Dorothy Devine @ 6.50pm

      The headline figure reported tonight is for 2017 and is taken from the latest report on drug deaths in Scotland produced by the National Registers of Scotland

      If you click on the link on that page it will take you to a long list of tables showing various data.

      The table at the top of the list shows the data from 1996 to 2017 in graph form. This shows an ever upward trend – around 950 deaths in 2017.

      The data is also reported as 3-year and 5-year rolling averages and these are plotted on the same graph as the yearly deaths. Reporting the data as 3 or 5 year rolling averages removes the yearly variation but still shows an upward trend.

      Hope this helps

    387. Dan says:

      @Bob Peffers at 7.05pm

      Yon wee lass was just taking the “can’t see the wood for the trees” term to the other extreme… “A cannae see heehaw wood for a’ the freakin wood stoor”

      @Dr Jim at 7.06pm

      Aye, a great deal of the public just don’t keep up with what’s going on.
      A recent example is I bought a new motorbike for the Yes Bikers run to Oban.
      I noticed the older lad selling it had a couple of Scotland related tattoos and also through chatting about general things he mentioned he had worked in the Scottish NHS for a long time.
      As I was leaving with the bike he asked if I would send him a pic or two of it when I was out and about on it as he had pics of the other bikes he’d had but for various reasons hadn’t taken any of this one.
      Nae bother says I and he got sent a few pics of the bike with the Saltire flag and Yes stickers on it sitting with over 100 other similarly decorated bikes.
      He was well chuffed to see such a sight as he was completely unaware of AUOB and Yes Biker activities within the Indy movement.
      Earlier this week he got in touch to say there was an accessory part for the bike he had forgotten to give me and that I should come in a collect it.
      So yesterday I popped in to collect it and we had a real good blether on SNHS and progress on Indy movement.
      He doesn’t use internet and is solely informed by TV and radio output. He had not seen or heard anything of the huge turnouts at the AUOB marches and seemed enthused when he learnt this was happening.
      I can’t begin to imagine how uninformed and importantly, how uninspired it must be to not be able to see progress being made with a cause you believe in.

      This is why I believe it is imperative we utilise other methods of conveying information to the wider public.
      Unfortunately naebody has responded to any of my posts asking for info on projectors as yet. Plenty moaning about the BBC though…

    388. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says:27 June, 2019 at 6:20 pm:

      ” … Oh dear, another sadly predictable response from Mr. Crusty. I suggest you try reading the article in today’s issue of that well-known media enemy of independence The National by that well-known opponent of independence, Lesley Riddoch, who writes:”

      Oh” Dear! Did someone dare to disagree with that well known never wrong, Robert J. Southerland? Again!

    389. Gary says:

      I’m not sure which is worse? The nigh on racism of thinking we are just Irn Bru and shortbread or the absolute ignorance of any kind of fact relating to Scotland. In fairness the ignorance is probably not all their fault, English people are taught NOTHING about Scotland in school, nor is anything Scottish ever on television in England either. NB I’m saying England repeatedly because that is where the show is, where all the TV companies and newspapers are headquartered too and THEY form the opinions of the entirety of the UK.

      And support for Indy has dropped? According to surveys? She must be looking at the one on the Conservative site that’s been running since God was a boy…

      Most galling is Paul Burrell. If I was a royalist I’d be annoyed with him too. He is speaking for the queen, but isn’t he the same Paul Burrell who stole all of Diana’s private papers and then blackmailed her Maj into ‘remembering’ that she’d ‘given permission’ to him to take it all but had ‘forgotten’ until the trial was underway? Maybe that was a different Paul Burrell then and not the thieving, blackmailing one who stole a dead woman’s stuff and then threatened to release juicy stuff to the press even though he claimed he was “her rock” and a friend to her children. NB STILL not a royalist but doesn’t mean I have any truck with that kind of behaviour. Is it collective amnesia in the country? Has everyone forgotten what kind of ‘man’ he really is??

      Anyway, it’s nice to know and have ourselves reminded that we ARE to wee, woo poor and too stupid. Poor us, we’ve only got a LOAD of oil and natural gas ON TOP OF many other industries that bring a lot in revenue for Westminster, most of which doesn’t count as Scottish because of how HMRC was MADE to structure itself.

    390. katherine hamilton says:

      What’s Elaine C. Smith’s mob doing? She was supposed to do the razamatazz. Crowdfunded weren’t they? Anybody know?

    391. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 27 June, 2019 at 7:06 pm:

      ” … and if you were a gamer you’d know that means *Timed out*.”

      Just so as you know, Dr Jim, I’ve been a gamer since we programmed in, “adventure Games”, on text only machines, (there were no others back then), and we thought the ultimate game was, “Pong”.

      I’m sitting here at a gaming laptop. I have an old xbox 360 and an xbox one X fitted into my, (not quite finished), entertainment centre that I’m building into what was once a fancy recessed unit with glass fronted display unit, drawers and cupboards.

      A previous owner of the house had boarded this recessed unit up and papered over it.

      Just a bit more carpentry and a wee bit of plastering left to do now. Then I can move in the big desktop gaming, come entertainment centre PC machine I use for video making.

      Does that qualify me as a gamer?

    392. Cubby says:


      Plenty of moaning about no one responding to your projector idea as well. Seems a good idea.

      Now if I was you I would probably say you are ruining threads going on and on about this all the time but I’m not so I won’t. It’s a good idea.

    393. Golfnut says:

      @ Breeks.

      My posts were about educating people about individual and collective sovereignty, the power it bestows, and how it could be used against those who lie and belittle our people and our land. We are on the same page regarding sovereignty, just not on the best way to wield it before Indy .

      @ Iain Mhor.

      2 very good posts.

    394. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 19:47,

      You’re the one that’s always claiming you’re not a bully but are always up for debate, yet when you get a few home truths batted back at you, you greet like a wee bairn!

      Yes, you like to hand it out in your ever-patronising way, but you sure can’t handle it when you get it back.

    395. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 27 June, 2019 at 7:21 pm:

      Keep up the good work, Breeks, you might turn off a few more indy supporters. You might even get a job with the Scotsman or the Daily Mail.

    396. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dan @ 19:41,

      Your biker story well illustrates the situation. How many more people are there like him, all still out there on their own? Thanks for that.

      Your projector idea also definitely seems worth exploring, BTW.

    397. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dan says: 27 June, 2019 at 7:41 pm:

      ” … Yon wee lass was just taking the “can’t see the wood for the trees” term to the other extreme… “A cannae see heehaw wood for a’ the freakin wood stoor””

      Not a lot of stoor in my workshop, Dan. I designed and built my own dust and chip extraction system. It is very efficient.

      Anyway I can hardly get in the door just now as I had to empty both the floored roof space and the large underfloor spaces to let the heating engineers in to install a new gas boiler and central heating system.

      The workshop is out of commission until I can dump a load of stuff and return other stuff to the roof space and underfloor areas. Thing is I haven’t been too well but am improving very well just now.

    398. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 20:22,

      The rules of this site, as you surely well know, are “play the ball, not the man”. But here we have no debate at all, no reasoned counter-argument, merely a cheap-and-nasty insult. (Well, what’s new?)

      With postings like this, you just can’t resist revealing the real you, can you?

    399. Legerwood says:

      Capella @ 7.30pm
      Unfortunately the figures for drug deaths are correct – see my reply to Dorothy Devine above. They are compiled by the National Registers for Scotland who report annually. The current figures are from their latest report which is for 2017.
      Yes the figures contain people who have been long term users and those of shorter duration which is why the people who compile the report break the figures down by age and sex as well as reporting them as 3 or 5 year rolling averages to level out the variation in annual figures. But however they are reported the trend is up.

      Of course the MSM and opposition politicians will just go for the headline figure and omit all the detail which gives a fuller picture.

      Some of the Main Points from the report include the following:
      • Based on the definition used for these statistics, 934 drug-related deaths were registered in Scotland in 2017, 66 (8%) more than in 2016. This was the largest number ever recorded, and 479 (105%) higher than the figure for 2007, which was 455 (paragraph 3.1.1).
      • Males accounted for 70% of the drug-related deaths in 2017 (paragraph 3.4.1).
      • In 2017, there were 360 drug-related deaths of people aged 35-44 (39% of all drug-related deaths), 268 in the 45-54 age-group (29%), and 185 drug-related deaths of 25-34 year olds (20%). There were 36 drug-related deaths at ages 15-24 (4%), and 64 of 55-64 year olds (7%) (paragraph 3.4.2).
      • The NHS Board areas which accounted for most of the 934 drug-related deaths in 2017 were:
      o Greater Glasgow & Clyde – 280 (30%);
      o Lothian – 137 (15%); o Lanarkshire – 102 (11%); and
      o Tayside – 94 (10%) (paragraph 4.1) .

      Using the annual average for 2013-2017, to reduce the effect on the figures of year-to-year fluctuations: • for Scotland as a whole, the average of 730 drug-related deaths per year represented a death rate of 0.14 per 1,000 population;
      • the NHS Board area with the highest rate was Greater Glasgow & Clyde (0.19);
      • the next highest rate was for Tayside (0.15)””
      As you point out the SG is hamstrung in some of the possible effective measures it could take due to Westminster intransigence

    400. Capella says:

      @ Legerwood – thx for posting the info. Interesting breakdown of figures. I’ll have a look at the report you linked to.

    401. Ken500 says:

      Mr Peffers you are so inventive. Extra smart. Really impressive. Especially for an elderly gentleman with restrictive health. Kudos. Thanks for all the info. Really great.

    402. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says:27 June, 2019 at 8:21 pm:

      ” … You’re the one that’s always claiming you’re not a bully but are always up for debate, yet when you get a few home truths batted back at you, you greet like a wee bairn!”

      Who is greetin, Robert? I’m not the one that never stops running down the independence movement.

      ” … Yes, you like to hand it out in your ever-patronising way, but you sure can’t handle it when you get it back.”

      I’m not the one complaining about the SNP, SG and FM -you are.

      I’m not the one who claims to know better that the FM. SG and SNP – you are. So how come you claim I’m the know it all when it is you claiming to know better than the FM, SG and SNP.

      Furthermore I’m not the one never done criticising the people who have brought us to this point where independence is as near as dammit a certainty – you are.

      You have more anti-FM. anti-SG and anti-SNP derogatory comments than the Scotsman, Daily Mail and Daily Express put together yet you have the temerity to claim to support independence.

      Who has done more for the cause, Robert J. Sutherland or Nicola Sturgeon?

      Oh! Jings! Sorry if I’m asking you hard questions.

      Ach! It doesn’t matter for I don’t expect you to answer it … truthfully.

    403. Bobp says:

      Robert peffers 3.20pm ‘if every yes movement person just concentrated on just one unionist each’. well I concentrated on two former unionists (and I live in Dorset) . By showing my sister and brother in law the links to how Scotland is constantly being derided and ripped off, they are now solid SNP and yes . So concentrate the rest of you who live in Scotland instead of trying to belittle people with your snidey splitter remarks.

    404. Eckle Fechan says:

      Re: the Vine show, we probably need more of this sort of daytime TV shite, beamed into homes across the land where the oldie Noes who are left can think again.

      The wifey on the right, with her chin down hidin her brass neck – the cross between an Afghan hound, a Muppet and Clinger – is a regular Sky roundtabler who I pass just as regularly on my way to RT.

    405. Dr Jim says:

      If you want some fum watch Newsnight tonight as Kirsty Wark interviews Ruth Davidson to the point of visible panic

      Then Nicola Sturgeon warning of the consequences of that very panic

    406. Dr Jim says:

      Fun not fum

    407. twathater says:

      Why is it acceptable for the FM to proudly LEAD a procession of the pride movement , fly to London to participate publicly in a mass rally in support of a second brexshit referendum which could have damaged the prospect of indy , yet she has to keep a distance between the AUOB marches and the Yes community
      As Dr Jim writes Nicola is the leader of the SNP whose reason detre is independence , she is also FM of the country of Scotland who voted for and elected a SNP SG , did the people who voted for her and her party not realise what the SNP stood for
      I for one do not understand and I am sure there are many more like me , how Nicola CANNOT front and lead a March designed to stimulate and encourage independence for our country

      I know RP has said that Nicola has fired the starting pistol but what is wrong with being out front publicly LEADING THE CHARGE or is it the general staying back and sending in the troops , is she ashamed of the troops
      Believe it or not I am a supporter of NS but the time has come to take the fight to the UK govt stop being embarrassed or reticent to take the liars to task at every opportunity fight their denigration head on

    408. call me dave says:

      @Dr Jim

      Thanks for the heads-up.

      Phew! Thank goodness you got Wark right.

    409. Cubby says:

      C4 news reporting that a leaked draft report on the Windrush scandal recommends that Home Office staff need to be educated about the British Empire. It seems there is appalling ignorance on the matter. Some didn’t even know where the Caribbean is ( geography lessons should be included as well).

      If appalling ignorance about the British Empire is the criteria then the WHOLE OF THE UK NEEDS EDUCATING.

      PS sorry Dan and Mac, I actually watched some television. You know the communications medium a Scotsman invented. Awfy bad of me eh.

    410. Ken500 says:

      Funding for drug rehab was extended to social care. Funding by the Councils. Rather than the NHS through the medical budget. The Drs could fund patients drug/drink users to specialist Drink/drug facilities. Many councils do not fund proper Drink/drug ‘total abstinence’ one chance facilities. Many residential. (Six weeks primary care). Clinics then can only get privately funded people. Not enough to keep the facilities open. They can close.

      If people can afford it they can recover to lead a ‘normal ‘ life. If they do not they continue to drink/drug. Or they can be kept on methadone forever. Or end up in prison. All the drug deaths in Scotland are of people on methadone who then take other substances. They overdose and it kills them early. That is why many Drs will not prescribe methadone. It ends up killing people.

      Some people commit suicide under the influence of drink/ drug. Otherwise they would not do it. They can become depressed by drink/drug use. Alcohol is a depressant. It gives a high and then it leads to a low. Then the Drs can prescribe anti depressants. People are then on pills and can drink or drug causing them to overdose. Or die from the complications.

      Look it up on the internet. The affects of over consuming. Too much drink damages the organs. Drugs do not cause such damage but people die young by overdosing. In some cemeteries the recent deaths are not of eighty year olds but of eighteen year olds. Really sad. It affects the whole communities.

      Proper total abstinence, ‘one chance’ rehab is cheaper than years on Methadone or prison. Saves lives and creates a support unit and community. groups. People help each other and newcomers.

    411. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@9.14pm

      Thanks for the heads up. So we don’t need Dan and Mac’s permission to watch this.

    412. CameronB Brodie says:

      Time for some Political Philosophy? Remember, the British constitution is justified by moral law, which the full-English Brexit annihilates. So do you feel luck and fancy living under English Tories, with arbitrary legal protection to your person, family, community and culture?

      Constitutional Paideia: Remarks on Hegel’s Philosophy of Law


      Constitutional paideia designates a form of constitutionalism that construes a nation’s constitution essentially in terms of ongoing processes of collective self-formation. This paper explores the notion of constitutional paideia as formulated by Hegel, who explicitly defines constitutionalism with categories of Bildung.

      The paper’s strategy is to present Hegel’ position in light of questions that can be raised about it. The paper advances three central theses: (1) in spite (and perhaps because) of his historico-culturist approach to law, Hegel is a theoretician of constitutionalpaideia; (2) despite construing constitutionalism in terms of ongoing processes of popular self-interpretation, Hegel does not vitiate the distinction between law and politics deemed so central to constitutional theory; and (3) despite construing constitutionalism in terms of self-formative processes of a particular culture, Hegel does not jettison the normativity and trans-contextualism long associated with modern constitutional theory.

      The paper concludes with some observations on the contemporary significance of Hegelian constitutionalism.

    413. Dr Jim says:

      @call me dave

      The older I get the more wan wink wonkier I get

      Somtimes you need a few goes

    414. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says:27 June, 2019 at 8:44 pm:

      ” … The rules of this site, as you surely well know, are “play the ball, not the man”.”

      You are hilarious. Robert, you began this idiotic fight by playing the man, or had you not noticed?

      Even more laughable, Robert, now here’s the thing, I’m not in the least bothered by your idiotic contortions but it seems you just cannot stand criticism. Criticism that has been well earned by you. You are are never done running someone or other down and usually someone you are not even worthy of licking their boots, or in the case of the FM often some rather fetching foot ware.

      Hilarious, Robert, just what do you imagine these little exchanges say about you? Here is a little idea of what some might think of your stock in trade on Wings.

      You are hyper critical and constantly run down people who cannot, and will not, hit back at you and wouldn’t do so if they could. Do you believe you are furthering the cause of independence? How on Earth can anyone profess to support independence while pouring out a constant stream of criticism of the principle players in the movement?

      You are a sham, a charlatan a cheat and a coward and if you construe that as playing the man – then so be it.

      Now off you go and sulk in the corner. I’ve had enough of your stupidity. You don’t even know when it is time to break off your stupidity. You are guilty as hell of all I accuse you being. A never ending complainer of the independence movement with the constant implications that you know best.

      With postings like this, you just can’t resist revealing the real you, can you?

    415. Bobp says:

      Twathater 9.15pm yes Carlos puidgemont, oriol junqueras and others marched with and showed their solidarity with the Catalan marches.

    416. twathater says:

      @ Ronnie Anderson up thread re Loch Lomond thanks Ronnie if that is true it maybe show that LA’S are listening , but it won’t be over yet Flamingoland can still appeal and it may even get to the SG , but irrespective I think this decision by Scottish Enterprise should be investigated . Scottish land should not be for sale under these circumstances and especially at a grossly reduced price to tory donors

      Scotland should learn from our Jewish brethren in london who do not sell the freehold of a property , they merely issue leasehold’s to ensure their ownership of a property in perpetuity

    417. Dan says:

      @Cubby at 8.16pm

      Hmm, posting in that manner when you agree with the idea but can’t help but try to get a negative point in twice when all I was doing was effectively a bump for responses to help.
      Just cannae help yourself eh.

      I take it you didn’t read my earlier post about the talk I attended with many other activists re. groups and them developing and utilising ways to make them more productive in achieving their objectives.
      I’ve not got that fragile an ego, and I can openly admit on here that I just don’t have the IT knowledge or time to get up to speed with what particular make, model and operating principle of equipment is best suited to that task, let alone handle the software and create the files the projector would use.
      It is a far more efficient use of time to get suggestions on equipment from those that have knowledge and experience of it rather than me starting from scratch.
      I can however assist in other ways with such a project.

      You should ask yourself if you are a facilitator, a doer, or a supporter that is capable of assisting others when you can, or are you a blocker, or preventer of ideas and projects because they don’t suit your narrow particular view, or you have personal indifference with those suggesting them that you are incapable of putting to one side for the greater good.

      Out of interest, as you’re all for calling out bigots and hate speech and at times doggedly defending the SNP. I duly and surprisingly noted that neither yourself or geeo had any posts whatsoever on the “One one week on the war on women” thread.
      Such a highly emotive subject with strong views and positions but you had nothing to say on the subject.
      I would have thought that was ideal ground for calling out bigotry and hate speech depending on where you stand on the matter. Best to keep one’s head down if one is trying to stay squeaky clean and not wanting to scratch yer teflon coatings.

      Cubby at 9:24 pm

      Fuck off you roaster. Have you nowt better to add to the thread than trying to get a rise out of supposedly like minded Indy folk that are trying to do their bit in any way they can.
      And to try to put an end to this ongoing pish we’ve had between us I’ll happily avoid any interactions with you from now on if it’s reciprocated.

    418. CameronB Brodie says:

      And here’s one for those who simply can’t abhor continental European philosophers. Only an abstract but fairly comprehensive footnotes. One for those with a concern with natural justice and legal practice. 😉



      The article uses the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision in the same-sex marriage case Obergefell v. Hodges as the springboard for a general enquiry into the nature and existence of a constitutional right to liberty under the American Constitution.

      The discussion is divided into two main parts. The first examines the meaning and the justifiability of there being a moral right to liberty as a matter of political philosophy. Two such rights are distinguished and defended: first, a right not to be coerced by the state when the state is motivated by improper reasons (prominent among which are paternalistic reasons); and second, a right not to be coerced by the state when there are insufficient justifying reasons for the state to do so, irrespective of how such state coercion may be motivated. Neither right is regarded as “absolute,” and so it is morally permissible for the state to override such rights in certain circumstances.

      The second part of the article examines the distinct and additional considerations that must be taken into account when these two moral rights to liberty are fashioned into corresponding legal rights under American constitutional law. Both such rights survive the transformation, but each becomes altered somewhat in its content. This legal transformation includes recognition of the nonabsolute nature of moral rights, such recognition taking the form of some doctrine of “compelling state interests.”

      The discussion in these two main parts of the article is prefaced with a defense of the article’s use of political philosophy to inform constitutional law, a defense motivated by Chief Justice Robert’s denunciation of such an approach to constitutional law in his opinion in Obergefell.

    419. A. Bruce says:

      Dan @ 7:41

      Sounds like a good idea with the projector Dan.

      I found this article about Projection Bombing : A Tutorial by the Graffiti Research Lab, the Eyebeam Open Lab and Paul Notzold.
      It lists the various Projectors and Parts List, Power Inverters etc.
      https:// Projection-Bombing/

    420. Thepnr says:


      The projector idea has been discussed before on Wings, back in 2013 in fact but same as now it didn’t take off for whatever reason. See the second link of these 3 posts in particular for some technical info and its worth reading the whole thread.

      Of course it doesn’t matter how good an idea something might be, as this one is, it still requires someone to grab the idea and make it happen which does take a good deal of work and effort. That is where the problem lies. There are many here who will mump and moan about the inactivity of others, the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon being the most used example. Yet the very same grumps are unlikely to ever make any effort to advance the cause of Independence whatsoever themselves.

      That lot are far too comfortable sitting on the sidelines and moaning about the lack of effort from everybody else.

    421. CameronB Brodie says:

      And one because our judiciary appear to be ambivalent about justice and supportive of the full-English Brexit (and all that that entails). ;(

      From Natural Rights to Human Rights—And Beyond

    422. ronnie anderson says:

      twathater as I said on Yes pages we need to deter the Carpetbaggers from getting a foothold in Scotland . Scottish Enterprise should be held to account by the Scottish Gov for selling land cheaply also the people of Balloch should take over the Loch Lomond Trust board .

    423. galamcennalath says:

      @ronnie anderson

      Here’s the original article….

      ” Devolution is causing all the strains that its opponents predicted, and in allowing the Scots to make their own laws, while free-riding on English taxpayers, it is simply unjust. The time will come when the Scots will discover that their personal care for the elderly is too expensive, and they will come, cap in hand to Uncle Sugar in London. And when they do, I propose that we tell them to hop it. “ – Boris Johnson

      Actually, I’d like nothing better than “to hop it” ….

    424. Legerwood says:

      twathater says:
      27 June, 2019 at 9:42 pm
      “”@ Ronnie Anderson up thread re Loch Lomond thanks Ronnie if that is true it maybe show that LA’S are listening , but it won’t be over yet Flamingoland can still appeal …””


      According to newspaper reports the final decision, at this stage in the process, now rests with the Trossachs and National Park Authority.

      If they decide against it too then I have no doubt the developers will appeal which is likely to result in an inquiry led by a Reporter who will then send recommendationsation to the relevant SG Minister who will make the final, final decision.

      That is the usual process.

    425. Jock McDonnell says:

      Is that the wee OberGruppenFuhrer’s constituency on the news cos of the junkies ? Has she no cleaned it up yet ? Mind you, canny blame them, if more union is all that is offered it would drive ye to despair.

    426. Dan says:

      Cheers for links A. Bruce & Thepnr.

      So much has developed in the Indy movement since the campaigning for the 2014 ref.
      Since then lots of new information has come to light and been collated along with the older stuff by hardworking individuals and YES groups. And of course the promises of Better Together and their Project Fear campaign have not exactly been adhered to…
      So we now have a vast bank of extremely useful information to hand that can be disseminated in various ways.
      As noted above there are still a lot of people that aren’t getting kept up to speed with what’s going on. There is no single method to reach everyone so a variety of options has merit.
      A Yes stall in a high street reaches only so many folk. A projector bombing session from a car park outside a large cinema with big flat walls for the screen might be seen by hundreds of folk spilling out after a movie.
      I’m gonna chase up a couple of personal contacts that have now come to mind about this.

    427. boris says:

      Transparency International, the anti-corruption watchdog, defines it as “a situation where powerful individuals, institutions, companies or groups within or outside a country use corruption to shape a nation’s policies, legal environment and economy to benefit their own private interests”.

      Comment: An online search of ex-New Labour ministers career choices after moving on from government reveals a disturbing pattern. Many have taken up positions with major weaponry manufacturers.

    428. CameronB Brodie says:

      And another one because our judiciary appear ambivalent about natural law.


      Copyright (c) 1997 Harvard Society for Law & Public Policy, Inc. Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy – Summer, 1997 – 20 Harv. J.L. & Pub. Pol’y 655

      Randy E. Barnett






      Law professors nowadays mention natural law and natural rights on a regular basis, and not just in jurisprudence. Given that the founding generation universally subscribed to the idea of natural rights, this concept regularly makes a prominent appearance in discussions of constitutional law.

      One simply cannot avoid the concept if one is to explain Justice Samuel Chase’s well-known claim in Calder v. Bull1 that “there are certain vital principles in our free Republican governments, which will determine and over-rule an apparent and flagrant abuse of legislative power . . . . An ACT of the Legislature (for I cannot call it a law) contrary to the great first principles of the social compact, cannot be considered a rightful exercise of legislative authority.”2

      Nor can law professors explain to their students the reference in the Ninth Amendment to the “other” rights “retained by the people”3 without mentioning “the pre-existent rights of nature.”4

      Yet in my experience, when law professors discuss natural rights, they typically run this concept together with that of natural law. Though these two ideas are closely related, they are not the same. This Symposium is intended to discuss the difference between natural law and natural rights.

      Whereas the other contributors are taking primarily an historical and descriptive approach, my approach will be more conceptual and normative. That is, I will explain how I think the concept of natural law ought to be distinguished from that of natural rights. Nonetheless, I believe (though I will not take pains to demonstrate) that the distinction I draw between the two concepts is consistent with much of the classical usage of these terms and helps clarify such usage.

    429. Confused says:

      newshite, caught it by accident

      Loki would pay for his prescriptions
      – I would prefer to keep mine free, instead I will forego


      some snippets – concern troll bingo

      “it cant go on forever – there is a massive black hole … ” – eh, WTF?!!

      the SNP are to blame for not fixing historical injustices they have no power to fix – e.g. land reform

      anything good, is NOT due to the SNP – its instead due to “wider cultural progression”

      Loki looks like some cunt they take out of a box and wind him up with a key in his back – a ned who swallowed a thesaurus, his nasal whine traumatises me, also – his “rap” is utter shit

    430. Dr Jim says:

      I am deeply apologetic for advising folk to watch newsnight with Kirsty Wark and her 30 second interview with Scotland’s First Minister and the rest being a Unionist party political broadcast with everybody else who actually has little or no say whatsoever in Scotland’s parliament and the particularly grovelling part that included Jack McConnell taking and being given credit for stuff he talked about but never did except for the smoking ban, everything else he made an Arse of

      Then we move on to a Herald *Journalist* who seemed to say that all the good things that have come out of our parliament just happened organically and had little to do with the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon

      I can’t even bring myself to describe the BBCs lust for perpetually including Loki aka(Darren McGarvey)who reads a thesaurus then spits out the words he just read devoid of comprehension of their meaning

      If that attempt at showing the Scottish people’s parliament and how attitudes towards it are was genuine by the BBC then somebody at the BBC needs medication

      But of course we know it wasn’t a genuine attempt at anything but a Unionist party political broadcast because if it was Kirsty Wark would have mentioned the £1 billion black hole shit to the FM for an answer but she didn’t did she, she just laid it out two or three times making sure there was nobody to answer just like her sly remarks on Scottish education

      If you didn’t see it, you spent your time more wisely if you just picked your nose

    431. Jock McDonnell says:

      Well, in that case, its not there to represent Scotland, Ms Flint.

    432. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@11.30pm

      You got there first. I was about to berate ( only kidding) you for telling me about the programme. It was minging absolutely minging. Just like the spell check keeps changing minging to mingling – both are minging.

    433. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Dr Jim
      Thanks for the heads-up, so happens I did pick my nose, so time well spent. I’ll gie the yoon stream a miss.

    434. Dr Jim says:

      Tory Tory Tory Banzai shout the BBC

      Scotland’s parliament also had no Liberal Democrats or Greens in it tonight and you have to guess that’s because the BBC wanted enough time to include the main opposition to the SNP and all the things they don’t do

      Jack McConnell former FM a man who had no fiscal responsibilty whatsoever to raise anything he was just given some spends then he handed the rest of the money back to the mother parliament of Westminster because he couldn’t think of anything to spend it on because the Labour party had had all their holidays to Cuba Portugal and the United States of America and they’d run out of brown envelopes that Frank McAveety was supposed to re- order in between feeling up the female staff

      Angry? I’m F…..g ragin!

    435. Legerwood says:

      Was the FM and RD not interviewed on The Nine tonight? Thought i heard it mentioned on Reporting Scotland’s trailer for the programme

    436. Jock McDonnell says:

      Its perfectly clear who is in charge of Westminster’s 3 rd largest party Mr McCoy.

    437. Dr Jim says:

      Jo Swinson MP Liberal Democrat wanna be leader says people have the right to change their minds on the EU #peoples vote

      But not the people of Scotland they have no rights

      Keep it up Unionists we need more Scots to see and hear this stuff

      How about Caroline Flynt Labour MP *Who cares about Scotland we don’t need them anyway* (paraphrased but pretty accurate)

    438. Cubby says:


      “this ongoing pish we’ve had between us”

      Dan you are the one who started to piss on me. You are the one who thought they could just have a free pish over me. Twice you jumped in attacked, insulted and disappeared. Now you swear at me and despite me asking you politely not to lump me in with other posters you do it again. I can only assume that you are doing this on purpose as I had asked you not to. Not very nice.

      I thought your idea is good not original but still good. I did read your earlier post.

      You are very good at telling other people what to do Dan. Try rereading your post – very prescriptive – that is, when I understand what you are ranting on about. “Teflon coating”???

      If posters are civil to me I will be civil back and give them full respect. You are an independence supporter but you have been uncivil to me. Simple as that.

      I could finish by telling you to F off you roaster but I won’t that’s you not me. I could finish by telling you to AASY but I won’t that’s Geeo not me.

    439. Dr Jim says:

      Forgot to mention Kirsty Wark said to Nicola Sturgeon that Jeremy Hunt had a point about withdrawing diplomatic support from Scotland if he didn’t like what she was saying to the nasty foreigners, Nicola Sturgeon answered *Well you might think so but he also withdrew the same support from the Welsh government as well and they voted for Brexit, it’s not about what I say she said, it’s about stifling and undermining the devolved governments* Arlene Foster DUP was provided with consular assistance and they don’t even have a functioning parliament, but they vote with the Tories

      Readers out there if you haven’t had your say yet, start saying it now because bad stuff’s coming and if we don’t get our retaliation in first hell slap it intae us

      First thing you can do if you can make it is turn up at the AYR march we need as many as can possibly get there, make them see and hear we mean business

    440. Shug says:

      Just watched lordmcconnel say first 10 years of scottish parliament were excellent but last ten were rubbish, followed be two mention s of scottish trade with england more important than with eu, followed by we are better together
      Oh the bbc dont you love them and not a challenge for ruth but plenty for nicola

    441. kapelmeister says:

      Kristy Wark pretends it’s the year 2003 and unionism remains dominant in Bonnie Scotland.

    442. Jock McDonnell says:

      And we just love it when you English folks talk about Scottish Independence as though you know what you are talking about. Pure ignorance, blah blah. Mr McCoy.

    443. Cubby says:


      “In allowing the Scots to make their own laws”

      We can’t have than can we – the Scots making their own laws – what is the world coming to when an old Etonian can’t even lord it over the jocks.

    444. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@12.14am

      I’ll. be writing to my MP (Masterton Tory ) asking him if FO support has been withdrawn from Foster as well. If not why not? Basically ask him to explain this change.

      I’ll be at Ayr. Hope not to bump into Dan he might run me over with his bike. Mind you not a bad way to go – on an independence march.

    445. Dr Jim says:

      It’s all coming out of their mouths now why our ancestors despised them and why the Irish still despise them and 27 other countries of the European Union are remembering why they used to despise them too (it’s all coming back eh)

      Keep talking Unionists

    446. Dr Jim says:


      You’ll recognise me easily my flag’s on my sea fishing rod

      Either it’s a trademark or I’m a *cheap skate*

      See what I did there, I know, it’s why I never tried to be a comedian

    447. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scotland is blessed with commentators and an abundance of opinions, but little understanding, IMHO. Some are more competent than others and some have no vision at all. Subsequently, many Scots are simply ambivalent.


      ….Yet the phrase “Return to the Natural Law” is understood by some ambiguously. He who pleads for the Natural Law, though he might not meet anymore the condescending attitude of sophisticated superiority, is even today confronted with a certain diffident skepticism, certainly benevolent and polite, but still decisive. For the return to the Natural Law arouses quickly the question at first somewhat baffling: To which Natural Law?

      Though there is and can only be one Natural Law, the question is justified. As with all great and fundamental ideas, so in the course of history, the Natural Law has been abused politically and socially. Also, historically, certain principles have been abstracted from the whole “organic” system of Natural Law and for political reasons have been exaggerated thus causing a grave distortion of the system itself.

      What he who asks the question, “To what Natural Law should we return?” means, is that he does not want a return to a Natural Law that was highly and exaggeratedly individualistic, a Natural Law that was abused up to the end of the 19th Century in order to invalidate all attempts for the realization of social justice; a Natural Law which was identified with the Adam Smith socio-economic system of laissez-fairecapitalism; a Natural Law in which the rights of property in the form of vested interests of the few were so highly protected that the personal rights of the many were left unprotected; where the theory of the natural rights as applied by the courts became de facto fetters for the realization of the personal rights of the many, especially the workers.

      Those who felt the contradiction between a democratic state with equal protection of the Law for all on the one hand, and the absolutist organization of the factory with no effective rights of the worker, saw in the theory of Natural Rights a seemingly indestructible obstacle to their attempts for social justice. The Natural Rights theory they encountered was so individualistic that the equally social meaning of al rights, especially the social obligation of property, of a property that became more and more impersonal and irresponsible, caused economic power to be completely forgotten.

      So many of the reformers, unfamiliar with the classical Natural Law, as it was at that time used by Catholic social reformers and by Leo XIII to give a sure basis for social reform, all too quickly gave up the whole concept of Natural Rights and declared all rights to be grants of the State falling thus for Rousseau’s potential totalitarian democracy and the All-Provider State, the greatest danger to social rights….

    448. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 21:38,

      Once again you have refused to debate the issues but ibstead resorted to abuse, and this time you have gone too far. Far too far. I will not continue this matter here, but be assured that this has not ended.

    449. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim

      I’ll be the one that is roasting with bike marks on my back. LOL

    450. Petra says:

      FGS am I on Wings or on an anti-Nicola Sturgeon / SNP site? What on earth is going on here? Get real folks. If you want to gripe, gripe about our MANY adversaries (take your pick) not about the ONLY person who’s capable of ending this Union …. with OUR support. Scots shooting themselves in the foot as usual! More than anything what an ungrateful lot. In fact, if I was Nicola Sturgeon who is working her socks off for us, in reading some of the comments on here, I’d be throwing the towel in and telling a number of people to get on with it. Then again maybe that’s what some people want.

      Yes we know that the SNP isn’t perfect (however compare it with the alternatives), but let’s get our Independence first and deal with individual ”issues” later. Other than that we are playing right into the Unionist’s hands on here.

      And yes we’re all frustrated due to this Brexit fiasco dragging on for the last three years, but it can’t really be compared to the last three hundred now can it? Nicola Sturgeon has informed us, that she won’t make her move until it’s clear what’s going on, for example more and more politicians are now discussing remaining in the EU which means that she can’t stand up and compare the catastrophe of Brexit versus Independence.

      Additionally think about what’s actually going on right now. One Tory (and Labour) politician after another is telling us Scots, publicly, that they won’t ”allow” us to get our Independence. They’re REALLY rattled (because they know) to the point that Independence is all you hear about now and of course them upping the ante on running Nicola Sturgeon’s performance, the SNP (like some on here), the Scots in general and our country down to the ground. This is the onset of their new drip, drip strategy, as they know that the last, such as the celebrity lovies .. ”don’t go” and the EU .. ”won’t want you” won’t work now. And of course they’ll have even more dirty tricks up their sleeve ready to be played out in the coming days, weeks and so on in relation to immigrants, terrorists and the Scotland Office.

      As an example, last night a great deal of time was spent on discussing Scottish Independence on the Andrew Neil Show (although he wasn’t there). Some female Guardian reporter got right into their ribs about English nationalism, exceptionalism, England, England, England, Brexit and Boris for PM, etc, destroying the Union. Seemingly she was all for it, lol, much to the annoyance of Portillo.

      We’ll get our Independence have no fear. Some faith in Nicola Sturgeon is all that is needed, plus Stu’s wee blue book and for some people, in particular on here, getting off of their backsides and actually making a concerted effort to make it happen instead of sitting in front of a monitor tap, tap, tapping away on their keyboards undermining the cause at every turn.


      Dan I’m all for using projectors. I’ve brought this up on here before, as have some others, and seemingly SIC have employed a company to do just that. But where are they?

      I’m not one for apportioning blame but I have to say that I’m really disappointed in the crew that are running the Scottish Independence Convention. This was the organisation, the ”umbrella group”, that was supposed to be pulling it all altogether. Getting the campaign off of the ground. But then again who knows maybe they are getting ready to ”go”?


      ‘Boris Johnson and The Ice Flow.’

      …”Just as Nietszche discovered with God in the 1880s, so the British people will discover in the 2020s that the Union is already dead in the hearts of our contemporaries. Indeed, the “deadness” of the wholly negative “Better Together” campaign in 2014 was as much a clue to the condition of the corpse as the Remain campaign in 2016.”…

    451. Liz g says:

      Robert J & Robert P
      Fur goodness sake pack it in….

      I could say more….

      But I’m not going to….

      I am warning you both!!!

      I’ll tell Cactus to stage an intervention..
      And He will!!!

    452. twathater says:

      Ronnie Anderson and Legerwood thanks for the info re Flamingo land I am happy that the cooncil has refused this application, as I posted previously wrongly it appears at least 32,000 objections were received to the application , another poster indicated there was in excess of 50,000 ,irrespective the numbers show the depth of feeling in relation to this proposed vandalism , so hopefully the issue will be rejected by all concerned

      I reiterate my disgust at this quango and sincerely hope that an investigation is carried out to ascertain what and who is behind the desperation to FORCE this application through despite the massive public opposition which had been obvious
      To me this gives a glimmer of hope that the days of peoples objections being ignored and treated with contempt is fading and it reinforces that the people will not stand idly by and allow these cretins to walk over us . Shades of liebours duplicity and contempt

    453. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 02:18,

      Sorry Liz, I can’t say more about that now. Peffers last posting speaks very clearly for itself, I think, and in due deference to everyone else, I don’t wish to divert this thread further over it.

    454. geeo says:

      I see I am being berated for NOT posting on a long gone thread now *(sigh)*

      Desperate stuff indeed.

      AASY (No fucking idea what that means, but Cubby seems to think i would say it *(sigh-again)*

      So much for not clubbing folk together in posts..*(hmm..bad laddie)*

      Anyhoo…thought ah better post before Cow Pie man moans about lack of input to the current ‘whingefest’.


      Well said, good stuff indeed.

    455. North chiel says:

      Very pertinent post “ Petra @ 0217 . Agree entirely with your sentiments . The Westminster & Tory hierarchy have always known that the elephant in the room was “ the precious precious union” . They have attempted to “ airbrush Scotland” from Brexit . However, the issue is coming into play now and the establishment plan was to deliver a hard Brexit and simoultaneously hold Scotland fast within the union . They are in total disarray now as the polling edges now towards Independence and the establishment now realise that they have to make the choice ( Brexit or the Union) ? Despite all the bluster coming from Bojo and Hunt , it is beginning to look to me that the union trumps Brexit and our FM is absolutely spot on to wait until the cards fall as her mandate is the “ change in circumstances / being taken out of E.U. against the sovereign will of the People of Scotland” . As and until this happens she will not set a date . I am seriously beginning to wonder if the “ United” Kingdom is going to exit? If it does come to pass then our FM will act accordingly .

    456. Effijy says:

      I was shocked at ITV News making Drug deaths in Scotland
      the main story.
      The language used in the report just smacked totally of run Scotland
      and the SNP Government down as we can’t have them leaving the
      Union with all those valuable resources Westminster controllers steal.

      They obviously have a dedicated team focused on uncovering or creating
      any Scotland Bad, too wee, too incapable stories.

      They stated with pride that the drug death figures had not yet been released
      But their researchers have uncovered the story.

      This proved the dedicated Scotland bad team exists and it proves someone
      In authority has leaked the figures.
      I think we need an inquiry to find out who the mole is and who specifically
      They gave the information too.

      You remember a certain Wikileaks chap has been incarcerated for revealing
      Statistics that were not due to be revealed.
      If the same laws were to be applied in the same way there should be others in
      That cell or the cell should be empty.

      Can anyone name an NHS England, Wales or N Ireland headline news story
      That was uncovered before it was announced?

      If you have a look at other countries that have been stollen you find the indigenous
      Peoples feel suppressed and inferior often turning to drink and drugs.
      This has long been an increasing problem for Aborigines, Maori’s and Native American Indians.

      Scotland being controlled by Scots in Scotland I’m certain would put these figures into reverse.

      UK media constantly drilling into people to tell them they are powerless and useless and no
      One in Westminster gives a damn about how you voted or what your priorities are does auger
      Well for mental well being.

      I’d also like to point out that many of London stabbing crimes and deaths are linked to drug dealing
      Drug dealing death increases link directly to increasing demand for drugs.

      I feel confident drug deaths down South won’t be leaked and they will have every opportunity to
      Be massaged, misreported or buried.

      Last comment: it seems some kind of football thing is coming home again?
      I have heard this every 2 years going back to the World Cup in 1970.
      With the football European Championships every 2 years between World Cups
      I make it that it’s been coming home for the 25th time in a row by nothing had
      Ever been seen or heard of?

      At least there are sightings and pictures of the Loch Ness Monster but nothing to see
      At this home for the delusional.

      They have never made any final and never even had a 3rd place.
      In order to boost moral and cover their humiliation the last England
      Male World Cup team were given a national award for coming fourth?

      Do you know anyone who got a Fourth Award? lol

    457. Dorothy Devine says:

      Effigy , I saw it and thought any old attack on Scotland will do.

      Then I caught a bit of K.Wark with Jock the Lad – what was the woman wearing???- even more disgust, but the telly has survived in my house at least for one more day.

      I did love it when Jock the lad said nobody calls a referendum when they can’t win – Davie Cameron where are you!

    458. call me dave says:

      North Sea cod stocks dangerously low and near to collapse says auntie wie a kilt and quotas should be halved. Over-fishing and too much dumping of part of the catches with no monitoring taking place.

      This only after three years where we were told the stocks had recovered and sustainable. Bertie Armstrong ( to retire August) to explain all later. 🙁

    459. Golfnut says:


      On Facebook. Cineworld are refusing to show the new Robert the Bruce film in any of its theatre’s in Scotland. They refuse to explain why. Shades of ‘ Outlander ‘ , I wonder if someone’s done a Cameron. Stupid really, because I think they have just guaranteed its success.

    460. Luigi says:

      If Cineworld are playing political games they will loose a lot of customers.

    461. Mark Harper says:

      Harry Enfields “Tim, nice but dim”

    462. Cubby says:


      AASY – away and shite yourself. Happy to clarify for you.

      Want to return the favour LOL. “The sites tough SJWs” – on the imperfect kiss thread Dan described us thus. Any idea what it means.

      As you say Dan attacks us for attacking a racist/bigot and then attacks us for NOT attacking who he thinks are racist bigots on some other thread. As I said on the imperfect kiss thread why does he not just do things himself instead of telling us what to do.

    463. galamcennalath says:


      Also, Outlaw King, although produced by Netflix, went on cinema release in other countries, but not here.

      And, the superb Irish film Black 47 only appear in a few specialist cinemas, not wide release.

      I can’t believe dropping films which have content running counter to the UKOK mantra is coincidence.

    464. gus1940 says:

      Portillo on last night’s This Week talking total bollocks on Scottish Indy.

      Being half Scottish I would have thought that he would have at least a tiny smidgin of awareness of the true situation re Indy.

    465. Golfnut says:

      @ Luigi and galamcennalath.

      Saltires for Scotland have been in contact with Cineworld, apparently they will be releasing a statement later today. No doubt written by their lawyers.

    466. Ken500 says:

      The drug deaths are Scotland are minimal in proportion to population. 50,000 deaths in Scotland. 1,000 recorded drug related. (even more? ) The figure has doubled in ten years. Higher consumption and availability. Targets areas. 2.5 more than the UK average. Most people die of old age. They die earlier in Scotland (UK) because of Westminster historic policies.

      Scotland has more older people as a percentage of the population because of Westminster unionist policies. Now attempted change because of Devolution 2000 and good SNP Gov policies. There was a stagnate population 5million since 1900 and before. Now increasing. 5.2million since 2000.

      it is recognised since 1980’s Thatcher imposed degradation led to more poverty in Scotland, Higher unemployment etc. In Scotland because of Thatcher London S/E centric policies. Illegally and secretly taking £Billions from Scotland. This led to higher bad health issues in Scotland and higher consumption (pro rata) of drink/drug. The high proportion of consumption of drink/drugs are now leading to a higher % pro rata of drug deaths,

      The SNP Scottish Gov has now taken measures to reduce the deaths, Minimum pricing which took 5 years to implement. Scotland does not have full control of economic matters. It could have raised taxes on harmful substances. . Cheap damaging alcohol. It is now reducing consumption and chronic hospital admission.

      Some drug prevention funding was taken from the NHS budget. Transferred to the social care budget, Given to the Council funding. Many Council (unionists) do not provided proper, ‘total abstinence’ rehab care facilities.

      Under SNHS funding arrangements the Drs could refer patients to proper total abstinence rehab/clinics facilities. Every Health Board funded these arrangements except Grampian. Grampian refused to fund primary care, ie the first six weeks of rehabilitation. The most important and expensive time, people can die when detoxing without expert medical care.

      The Councils are not publicly funding proper facilities, compared to the Health Boards. Some just neglect essential services, To fund and build grotesque monstrosities of no value, offices and shops sitting empty. Under occupied hotels. Costing £Millions wasted. Instead of properly funding essential services as they are supposed being given under funding provisions.

      Councils can borrow £Billions. The Scottish Gov (Devolution) can borrow very little restricted by Westminster. Westminster unionists can borrow and spend what they like. Scottish revenues have to pay repayments on the loans not borrowed and spent in Scotland. Illegally cut Scotland’s budget. The unfairness of the corrupt Union. Holding a Scotlabd back. Leading to less growth in Scotland. Q

      Proper rehabilitation/clinics have to be funded privately. If people can afford it they can get services. Poorer people are being left on methadone for years (worse than heroin) or end up in prison. (Care in the Community services cut by Westminster). Prison and methadone are much more expensive than providing total abstinence, ‘one chance’ rehab facilities.

      Proper rehab facilities are closing because some councils are not helping funding them. Or providing some support funding. Then people with addictions problems who need professional help (for a relative small outlay by %) have to go further afield for limited help. Decreasing instead of increasing. The problems could be eradicated.

      Higher drug deaths in Scotland are a Thatcher legacy. Scotland had higher unemployment and deprivation than the rest of the UK because Scotland’s budget was disproportionally illegally and secretly cut. Leading to more drink, drug use. and unhealthy people. Little was done about it. It is a peak that will fall.

      The SNP minimum pricing and other measures will see the historically high figures start to fall. They are falling now by all reports. Less hospital admissions for chronic problems. It is a peak that will fall. Especially if the (unionist) councils provide the proper training and funding Rehab support.

      Sometimes the inadequately trained ‘professionals do not know what they are doing. Give bad or poor advice because they do not adequately realise the problems or course of action to resolve. Encouraging people to stay on methadone. People who wish to come off it to try to resume a ‘normal’ drug free life. A less chaotic lifestyle.

      More drug deaths occur when people manage to come off drugs. Then they decide rashly to have another go. Their resistance is low. They take too much of a substance and then overdose and die. They actually die because they have managed to overcome the addiction. They are tempted back to more consumption for various reason. Often think they can deal with it, ignoring the danger.

      The Health Boards do not provide enough training in addiction problems. Involving health professional training. Doctors and nurses etc can be ignorant of these problems. Problems they will have to help deal. Unless they specialise,

      Many Doctors will not prescribe methadone. All the drug deaths in Scotland are related to people being prescribed methadone and then taking other substances. Overdosing. People who take heroin have to keep on increasing the amount/dose as they seek to get the ‘high’ they first experience. They want more and more. Enough is never enough. The same with alcohol. In the genes.

      Addictions problems can increase poverty. Although addiction problems cover all classes and aspects of society. It affects everybody, Addicts can be really smart people. Higherbthan average incomes. They manage to hold down important jobs until the addiction finally takes over without proper professional help. It can destroy lives. For one addict there are ten people affected. It leads to abuse.

      The kinship monies given to families can keep children affected together within families. Well looked after by comparison. There are less children in care. A major reduction. Although some are fostered and adopted. For there care and well being. The Scottish helps children in care. They can now remain until they are older (21) Get extra payments for independent living. Education support and they do not pay the Council tax for an extra period.

      Addictions causes stress and anxiety among many in society, Any affected people should seek help to prevent leading chaotic lives. There is professional help available both private, public and voluntary. That is the first step. NA narcotics anonymous or AA, Alcoholics Anonymous, offer assistance. They are counselling services where people can get help and advice. The professional Drs nurses etc.

      If people can manage to be open, honest and share. A problem shared is a problem halved. There are people out there who care. They can help with recovery, stop deaths and people dying totally unnecessary. Save lives and tragedy.

    467. Phil says:


      He came over all hesitant, unusual, blaming global warming. And slipping in a quick blame for the CFP. Sooner retired the better.

    468. galamcennalath says:

      Saw this priceless quote on WoS Twitter. Worth sharing for those who don’t twit. This IS how some folks think.

      Tony H******* says “the referendum in England was about Britain leaving the EU nothing to do with Scotland. If you want to leave the United Kingdom and be ruled and dictated to by the EU that’s up to you. Stop putting down what the British people voted for, it’s none of your business. “

      You wouldn’t know where to start!

    469. Socrates MacSporran says:


      Re your post about twitter: you would almost want to block that clown, except, think of all the laughs you might miss.

      A clear example of how, darn sarf, Scotland is a small, far-off country, of which they know nothing, and care even less.

    470. Petra says:

      Just as well many south of the border didn’t realise that Game of Thrones was inspired, in the main, by Scottish history. If they had that would have been rubbished too. Interesting to note that by the end of the series the North was the victor with the South all but destroying itself.

    471. Petra says:

      Apology, apology!!!!’ I forgot that many people won’t have seen the end of GoT’s. Really sorry about that.

    472. call me dave says:


      Aye heard him obfuscate all the fish moving North.

      Funny thing that 🙂

    473. galamcennalath says:

      The Brexit sold in 2016 was one where trade would continue just the same as being in the single market and customers union. Brexit was never intended to cause widespread disruption to trade. It was presented as facilitating trade.

      And now we have two far right loonies openly threatening to go for the dirtiest Brexit possible. One even saying he would suspend WM to prevent MPs stopping the impending carnage.

      Could things have turned out any more different from what was promised?

      With a ‘no deal’ the UK will probably have no car industry left ….

    474. call me dave says:


      Nearly…. 🙂

    475. jfngw says:

      Surely last nights Newsnight should have had one of those riders that appear before every PPB, ‘This is a party political broadcast on behalf of the British Nationalist Parties’.

    476. Dane says:

      Petra @ 2:17
      Well said Petra, couldn’t agree more. Wings is The world’s most-read Scottish politics website, through Stu’s hard work & commitment. As such it is read by many supporting Independence, as well as some seeking information. This has obviously riled the establishment, and comments appear to have been hijacked by using plants. It must be working, as new visitors must be put off when they see the tedious drivel that is sometimes posted. It is also putting off regular readers like me. I used to log in daily, but recently, I am coming on less & less. Bad enough some of the crap posted, we now have some posters issuing threats to each other. FFS get a grip!
      It used to be that we had excellent posters, sometimes inter-spaced with comments from our regular brit nat trolls Haudit & Daudit. These were easy to scroll down by.
      Lately, more of the Green Ink brigade have latched onto Wings, hoping to cause arguments & disruption. Unfortunately, rather than ignore them, some are rising to the bait & engaging with them. It is a pointless exercise, you are never going to change their views. They are committed brit nats!
      To the trolls GTF you are not welcome.
      To others,

    477. Golfnut says:

      Ref GOT.
      Funny how north of the wall you were either a ginger savage or the walking dead. But I loved the series. I believe there is a final series coming out, or have I already missed it.

    478. Capella says:

      BBC appears to have given up posting Scottish Newspapers front pages. This is the second time this week I’ve gone to have a look and found nothing. Is the Union really over?

    479. Capella says:

      Kiosko does have the Herald and Scotsman front pages. Both feature a big photo of Sam Heughan, star of “Outlander” receiving an honorary doctorate from Stirling University. Too much publicity for Outlander?
      The top stories are also a bit embarrassing for the Union.

      The National pours scorn on Jo Swinson’s lies about us having no electoral mandate for Indyref2.

      So all in all, not surprising that they may not want to showcase these front pages – at least until everyone is safely off to work and the caravan has moved on.

      Perhaps Stu could add a “Todays front pages in Scotland” feature to the site? Nobody else is doing it.

    480. Joe says:

      Just as a random point of interest:

      Self ID (now delayed) is currently being pushed on other small prospective EU member countries.

      Self ID comes from higher up the ladder than the SNP.

      Does the SNP represent the will of the Scottish people? Or are they becoming the gatekeepers of other, international, interests?

      Would you prefer a fluffy fantasy or an ugly truth? Your choice.

      Scotland needs an additional political vehicle for independence.

    481. Flower of Scotland says:

      Paul Burrell is more to be pitted than anything else.

      Do you know that Cineworld has decided NOT to show “Robert the Bruce” film in Scotland. You can see it in the Odeon and Independents.

      A bit of British State interference again?

    482. Golfnut says:

      @ Joe.

      ‘ Scotland needs an additional political vehicle for Independence.’

      Last time I looked we already have 2 others, which aren’t really polling that well.

      Just how do you expect a new political party to start up, finance itself, recruit staff, select prospective candidates all in time for October.

    483. Capella says:

      We have already dismissed the idea of a second independence party which would only split the vote and allow the unionists to gain the leadership in Holyrood.

      Re SelfID – the SNP has stepped back from the brink to give the matter more thought. There will be massive pressure from “progressives” to carry on, regardless of the overwhelming opposition of the public. They must resist this pressure or fall at the next election.

    484. Legerwood says:

      Golfnut @ 11.02 am

      I am surprised that people are still peddling the ‘start a new party’ stuff. I would have thought that Change UK and what happenned there would have put paid to that.

    485. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT about TV Licence for the over 75’s , ignoring the fawning over war time celebrations and the many ,many interviews of very elderly soldiers , I suddenly remembered the money being given to independent businesses to provide ‘ journalists’ for failing newspapers.

      I think the BBBC needs a great deal of re thinking , re management and restructuring – particularly of salaries.

      I should have been smelling rotten rats yesterday on ITN news when Scotland was the lead story , albeit a tale of woe and outrage.

      I also lost sympathy with the addicts when that woman said she would continue to take it even if it killed her – there is no help for someone with that attitude one can only sympathise with the grieving families.

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