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Wings Over Scotland


Starting the car

Posted on May 28, 2019 by

Ah, some classic Scottish Labour action right here:

A week (and a day) really IS a long time in politics.

Shall we say sometime tomorrow, readers?

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    1. 28 05 19 22:56

      Starting the car | speymouth

    392 to “Starting the car”

    1. Dr Jim says:

      Ruth Davidson didn’t turn up for the meeting so nothing could be decided

    2. Mcdenster says:

      Done the 3inrow Rev ;o) however I must wade in to proclaim that when if/when my Ill-Health comes in – soon – then free from PS shackles, these Moronic Mogadons are gettin it.

      Intellectually&Politically ‘course.

    3. Welsh Sion says:

      “Defiant Richard Leonard won’t resign …”

      – Don’t believe anything (a Unionist politician says) until it’s officially denied.

    4. Craig Murray says:

      Would anyone care for a happy thought?

      The AUOB march in Gala on Saturday will be in a town where the SNP just won in last weeks election (as everywhere else on the mainland).

      Not too many years back that would have seemed wildly improbable.

      Hope to see some of you there.

    5. doug_bryce says:

      Richard-who ?

    6. call me dave says:

      This emergence meeting….any news / leaks / rumours?

      Has the Leopard been spotted this evening?

      PS.

      Bercow the Speaker:

      The idea that the house won’t have its say is for the birds.
      MPs to vote on no deal…looks like.

    7. Petra says:

      If anyone wants a laugh Leonard is on Scotland Tonight at 10:40pm.

    8. velofello says:

      I do hope he stays. I’d miss his bobbing at FMQs, and his big red scarf, just as I missed – whilst she was on leave – watching Ruthie lumbering to her feet in her civvies suit, to deliver yet another bunch of skewed statistics. As Grousebeater opined – Ruthie reading out statements she barely understands.

      So who’s next for Slab leader? Does it matter? I suspect the majority of their membership remain due to force of habit, or respect for dear old Grandad and Dad,

    9. Effijy says:

      You can see the pain in that Dick Leonard’s face.

      He knows he is a libility in charge of a pretend
      Scottish Party devoid of ideas, opinions and talent.

      Let’s hope he retains leadership for their burial.

    10. Golfnut says:

      Personally I think the poor chaps getting a bum rap, he has adhered religiously to the level of utter sh### required of any Labour leader in Scotland or indeed elsewhere. I don’t think they really have a lot to complain about.

    11. Capella says:

      @ Craig Murray – wish I could be there. Have a fantastic day, I hope it will be Livestreamed. Plan to make it to Aberdeen, Perth and Edinburgh. Feeling quite buoyant now that the end is in sight.

    12. Winifred McCartney says:

      This is the man who needs to wear a red scarf so that people will think he is a socialist. He is also the man partly responsible for Glasgow women not getting equal pay and being dragged through the courts by labour in glasgow. It was labour who phoned my 92 year old dad before indy and told him if he voted yes he would not get his pension. They are worse than Tories because they pretend they are the good guys. They are not.

    13. McDuff says:

      It is quite terrifying that Leonard and Davidson are the leaders of anything least of all political parties.
      Not only have they the brains of a pinecone but they genuinely have no interest in Scotland or its people.

    14. The bunch of deadbeats calling themselves Scottish Labour couldnae buy a book of stamps without asking permission from UK Labour,

      Corbyn might decide to ditch whatshisname and bring in a new face,

      but it will be up to Corbyn not the deadbeats,

      the deadbeats should just f@ck of out of existence for all the good they have ever done Scotland.

    15. Famous15 says:

      Paraphrasing Labour apparatchicks on STV:

      “We in Labour Party had a very nuanced message but you voters were too thick to understand”

    16. jockmcx says:

      Can anybody confirm that Stu Campbell is on Alec’s show next
      week?…thanks

    17. LOL three monkeys on Scotland tonight. Hear no evil,See no evil and speak no evil. Cats fighting in a sack that’s British Labours branch office in Scotland the noo.

    18. Capella says:

      Davidson, like PO Ken Macintosh, is spawn of the BBC. She was employed as a spad by Annabel Goldie and quickly promoted by David Cameron to take over the Tory leadership in Scotland.
      Ken Macintosh from wiki

      He was previously employed as a television producer for the BBC, working on its news broadcasts and election coverage between 1987 and 1999.

      If you have a background in the black arts, like Cameron of Carlton, then you are a shoo in for the Westminster parties.

      Unfortunately, if you have no policies that anyone will vote for, you will drop like a stone. No amount of spin will overcome the vacuum that is Tory and Labour policy.

    19. geeo says:

      Call me dave 10.34pm.

      Bercow article here. http://archive.is/9zyZZ

    20. Scottish Steve says:

      The unionist parties are in such disarray right now. It’s beautiful to behold, especially with the SNP contrasting so starkly as a bastion of sense and stability.

    21. AndyMcKangry says:

      The Labour Party are done.
      Their voters have moved on having finally seen them for what they are. They have done nothing for Scotland for 60 years. Party first everything and everyone second.
      Their final betrayal came in 2014 and all but the party faithful admit or even see that.
      No sympathy for them and no nostalgia either. They no longer serve any purpose.
      All the things the last remnants preach about are things they always promised and never delivered, the SNP are and have delivered.
      Why don’t they just slope off and die with a bit of dignity.
      The king is dead, long live the king.

    22. Steph says:

      Lol.

      No one wants to be Scottish branch manager of the Labour party. They won’t touch the job with a barge pole.

      That is a chalice which has been poisoned far too much each time a new person drinks from it.

      Seems these days every time S/Labour or Scottish Tory branch/Tories gets a new leader they’re always worse than the previous one. Same goes for Lib Dems.

      Reminds me of Harry Potter – the Defense Against the Dark Arts job was cursed, with each person who took the job worse than the last (minus Lupin).

    23. Clootie says:

      Richard should stay!
      We couldn’t ask for a better leader of the North Britain Branch.

      Please keep him.

    24. jockmcx says:

      Which parts of england will claim to be regions of Scotland
      after independance?

      Is it true that english public schools have replaced latin
      with compulsary glaswegian?

    25. Cubby says:

      Scotland Tonight.

      Total car crash for Labour in Scotland. Thousands of votes lost again as they argue amongst themselves and flaunt their dirty washing in front of the viewers. It was made crystal clear that Leonard can’t take a piss without running it past London first for approval.

      Better Together and Dugdale telling voters to vote tactically ( code for vote Tory ) – they are now reaping what they sowed.

      The THIRD party in Scotland will soon be the FOURTH party in Scotland. Wee Willie will be delighted.

      Leonard says he will not be resigning – yippee.

    26. Dr Jim says:

      Scotland’s women footballers have a great night and win their game backed by over 18,500 men women and children in a smashing family occasion at home here in Glasgow and the Scottish Unionists crap and snipe all over it once again proving they despise their own country

      If these people ever had any brain the cringe has robbed them of its use, they’re like demented caged zoo animals

    27. HandandShrimp says:

      No one asked him to step down because they are all terrified they might get the job.

      🙂

    28. Patrick Roden says:

      Mentioned this before but will repeat it here:

      I was speaking to a close relative a few weeks ago, who doesn’t normally speak about politics.

      However the Brexit stuff was on the tv in the background and she began to talk about the Labour Party.

      She told me that she had always voted for Labour (she’s in her sixties) but that they were ‘just so useless now, she couldn’t vote for them anymore’

      She looked really hurt as she said this, but the added that she wasn’t sure who she would now vote for, but that she felt that she’d ‘probably vote for the SNP as they were closest to how she feels’

      I was then able to tell her that I always vote for the SNP because they were the only main party in Scotland that didn’t take orders from London and wouldn’t knowingly do anything that would harm Scotland’s best interests.

      I’m not sure what it was that caused her to decide she couldn’t ever vote Labour again, although it clearly pained her, but I would bet the exact same thing is happening all over Scotland as we speak and will continue to happen, until the Labour Party in Scotland is completely hollowed out.

      Ah well, never mind.

    29. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Winifred McCartney @ 22:56,

      Yes, NorthBritLab supped with the devil, but the dummies used too short a spoon.

      And ever since, they have been paying the price. More and more people coming to see that they sold their souls, and so cheaply too. Not even BBC Scotlandshire pal-o-vision can save them now.

    30. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Patrick Roden @ 00:16,

      My previous posting was for you too, Patrick.

    31. Cactus says:

      Aye, the political branch may finally snap for Leonard later today

      18/11/17 to 29/05/19
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-branch-office-jungle/

      He’s lasted longer than many expected

      Select 1st gear

    32. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Cactus @ 00:42,

      James Kelly, your moment of glory is finally about to come!

    33. Bob Mack says:

      I can almost hear “et tu Brute” ,in a Kenneth Williams voice.

      Infamy infamy, they’ve all got it in for me . Happy days.

    34. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Robert, aye could ye imagine JK as FM!

      Of a statesmanlike quality be he, hehe

      A new statue for Jimmy please 🙂

    35. Cactus says:

      It’s all Madness…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV1_7R_3cXA

      Whose got the keys?

    36. Cactus says:

      Last Call fundraiser ’19 updatum:

      Gift page showing £102,445.40 with 1,957 donations to date…

      Ah wonder what the running total will be up to upon Donor 2,000

      https://donorbox.org/last-call

      Vrooom! Vrooom!

      43 to go

    37. geeo says:

      Cubby@11.49pm

      Why would Rennie be delighted, they are already 5th and last party !!

      Imagine the Greens may be chuffed if labour slide further and they become 3rd party here.

      Of course, as currently constituted, we will be 3 parties short in an indy Scotland, at Holyrood.

      Fun times ahead for sure.

    38. Flower of Scotland says:

      Craig Murray@ 10.30pm

      I’ll be in Galashiels on Saturday. Going with a gang of yessers. Should be a good day.

    39. Patrick Roden says:

      What a great European Election this has been, and it might not be over yet!

      Scottish Labour, Ruth Davidson, and the BBC’s credibility, have all taken huge hits, and the fall-out will go on for some time.

      Magic!

    40. Cactus says:

      All Under One Banner ~ Galashiels ’19

      https://howmanydaystill.com/its/auob-galashiels-19

      Be sure tae follow yer team…

      To the borders!

    41. Gary says:

      Much unhappiness in the ranks. Their policies, NOT talking about Brexit for a change, just don’t work for them anymore.

      I saw Neil Findlay interviewed. Saying he was resigning from the front bench and going to stand down at the next elections. He was, despite everything he has espousd on their behalf, bemoaning Labour policy by saying that the Labour attitude of being ‘Ultra Unionist’ simply wasn’t working and was alienating the voters!! My God, just how dense was he that he’s only getting his head round this NOW! (of course maybe he isn’t, maybe he tried to reform from within and feels he’s failed?)

      I have mixed feelings about this. Should Labour adopt either a ‘pro’ or at least a ‘noncommital’ stance on Indy it COULD benefit the cause of independence leading to possible independence under a Labour government. On the other hand, they could regain ground and not honour any promises or just kick the can down the road by saying if/when there IS IndyRef2 they will not specifically campaign either way.

      But the current state of the party, ie fifth place, is entirely down to their own failings in Scotland. In England the at least managed THIRD place. In Scotland they are now a party of the past.

      They forgot that they weren’t always Scotland’s main party, there was a sea change when Scotland essentially stopped voting Tory or Liberal and moved en masse to Labour for some 50 years. They got fat and lazy and stopped caring about their constituents, they forgot their founding principals and became ‘Tory Lite’ They’ve rightly been punished for this…

    42. Clootie says:

      Labour complain about all of the policies enacted by a Tory Government supported by a right wing UK vote base (including the flat Earth DUP).

      The one policy they a clear on is opposition to Independence. The very thing which would give us power to address all of those issues in Scotland.

      In summary – everyone is out of step with Labour. They scream daily that they want to talk about social injustice but attack the one solution that would address every area of concern.

      Labour is part of the Empire legacy which has nothing to offer the people of Scotland.

      They are simply the proud North British Red Tories. From the HofLs to Trident they are loyal servants to the Union. The people of Scotland appear not to deserve their support so why should Scotland vote for them?

    43. Ken500 says:

      They all reneged on the VOW. They reneged on promises made the next day. The unionists are compulsive liars. Brown, Clegg, Cameron. They were voted in to protect the NHS and Education. They cut both, NHS £4Billion a year and Education £6Billion. Halve of which they will not get back in increased student fees elsewhere. Cut Welfare £3Billion a year for six years. £18Billion People are starving.

      Austerity was totally unnecessary the tax revenues increased from £533Billion to £628Billion. Increased £95Billion. The SNP Scottish Gov had to mitigate all these cuts. The Scottish budget has been cut 10% a year. Now £3Billion less. The Scottish tax revenues raised have increase £4Billion a year. The fishing, farming and Oil & Gas sector all totally mismanaged by Westminster. Fish discarded, throwing back dead fish, farming CAP payments taken. Oil sector highly taxed when the price had fallen. Now 40% since Jan 2016.

      The Tory unionists are spending £Billions on HS2, Hinkley Point and Trident. All a total waste of tax payers money. An absolute disgrace. The waste of money on Brexit which will not happen is just appalling.

    44. Tom says:

      Two thoughts:

      1) This goes for the tories as well. If you want to do well in Scotland, then be a legally separate party from the main UK one.

      2) Perhaps he didn’t resign because nobody wanted to pick up the poisoned chalice. Unlike in Westminster where there are 10+ idiots who don’t realise that being leader when Brexit takes place will mean they will be in the top 3 worst Prime ministers of the UK, putting Lord North into 4h place.

    45. Nana says:

      Links

      https://www.gov.scot/news/suicide-prevention-training-launched/

      As part of our ongoing work to improve the health of the nation, a consultation on the creation of a new public health body has been published.
      https://consult.gov.scot/public-health/public-health-scotland/

      FM says
      https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/1133375899573919744

      Nicola Sturgeon in Conversation with Dearbhail McDonald’
      Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon participated in a wide-ranging discussion with journalist Dearbhail McDonald including a short Q&A session to close in the Royal Irish Academy on 27 May 2019.
      https://soundcloud.com/the-royal-irish-academy/nicola-sturgeon-interview-27-05-2019

    46. McBoxheid says:

      If you follow orders from a foreign country’s (England: We are in a union with them, not part of them.) politcal parties, when they are in melt down, the last thing they think about is other countries (Scotland, N.I. and Wales). They have to deal with their own domestic crisis first, before they have time to think about foreign policy (what to do in Scotland, N.I. and Wales).

      Their party leader, (not the branch manager) is completely lost. Jeremy Corbyn (J.C.) tries to pretend that he is keeping his plan close to his chest, that his enigmatic plan will be revealed in the fullness of time, but I don’t think he actually has anything concrete either. (Westminster is full of unionist party bluffers and gravy train surfers.)

      J.C. had been drifting along in oblivion for so long, that when he became party leader, he had to fight to keep his post and has nothing left to do anything else, no plausible policies. Like the other unionist party leaders, (not branch managers) he does not know what to do. They have no precedence to follow and daren’t risk putting something forward to be ripped apart by his enemies in his own party and on social media.

      They have all lost their way and that includes the people that once followed them. There will always be chancers like Nigel Farage, even his initials NF are dodgy. (NF = National Front)) that step in to fill the vacuum. He is just another greedy spiv, that is raking in the money from donors across the world.

      When place men are caught in the headlights, the don’t know what to do, so the disappear to contact their handler. (UN)fortunately, their handler’s have no chance of getting to see their highheidyins, so they are totally stuck.

      The union is well and truely broken, it always was, but that is now exposed to everyday debate, with social media (s.m.), s.m. never forgets.

      I don’t think the British Empire would have been possible if they had s.m. in the day, as it would be obvious as to what they were doing and divide and rule, bluffing and lying openly could all be revealed for what it is at the touch of a button.

      For me, Nicola Sturgeon is the modern day Ghandi. She is leading a party that is honestly and positively opposing British rule without breaking the law. Truth always wins in the end.

      The landslide victory at the EU elections is not the same as a general election win in the future. It may have been a protest vote for many, but also had a low turnout.
      Normally a low turnout is bad for the SNP, but not this time. This time, the two big parties were so heavily defeated. It was a severe warning to them, but also it was hope and encouragement to a Yes movement that is only going to get bigger, the more the truth is exposed. The more Westminster is seen as what it is. The more the BBC is exposed as a lying, (by ommission) and biased agent for the union that it is.

      Well done to the Rev and his ilk for exposing the lot of them for what they are.

      Well done to the REV and his ilk for helping to open the eyes of so many people who were previously deceived by labour, the Libdems and the Tories.

      Well done to the REV and his ilk for giving the truth the exposure it needed and still needs.

      Thank you.

    47. Nana says:

      Two lots of links have failed to appear. I tried rearranging and posting again and got ‘duplicate message’ but still no appearance.

      I will leave it for the Rev to sort.

      Hopefully they will appear as there is a link to yesterday’s event/discussion with Bercow talking about turbulent times in UK politics.

    48. Mac says:

      O/T

      Can anyone remind me the background and outcome to the area of Scottish Waters that was sectioned off to England during Blair’s time (I think). If I recall, the intention was to incorporate certain oilfields.

      I could google, but I suspect the minds on here will have more instant and accurate answers 🙂

    49. Nana says:

      @Mac

      Craig Murray’s video here

      In 1999, the UK establishment secretly reclassified 6,000 square miles of Scottish sea as English waters.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfbfldSrJ-0

    50. Greannach says:

      Inspiring that Neil Findlay in his resignation letter talks about his campaigning for his class.

      I presume that means he’ll be manning the barricades on behalf of career politicians everywhere.

    51. call me dave says:

      Radio shortbread introduces the subject of an UK enquiry into ‘broadband’ with SNP MP A. Brown who is on the committee.

      He sounded like he was on an internet connection and listed the half dozen items of the enquiry.

      Switch to owner of an 11 bedroom hotel in the country who has a dodgy internet and no mobile phone and moaned for a couple of minutes.

      That was it! Interview finished they never went back to Brown for a comment?? FGS!

      —————————————————–
      Now here’s Gary trying to put words into Angela Constance’s mouth about the Bill coming through Holyrood conflating the EU election vote with a Scottish referendum. Basically suggesting it’s greedy like having your cake and eat it.

      Gary implying why have Indy2 if remain in EU is successful… you cant have both?
      Too many referendums not enough time for the day job…blah blah!

      Good old Auntie wie a kilt! 🙂 Another day in the colony.

    52. Heart of Galloway says:

      Shortbread TV repeating its ‘Scotland needs Westminster’s permission’ line in reporting on the unveiling later today at Holyrood of the draft framework bill for IndyRef2.
      Telling the people of Scotland they are powerless has always been the MSM’s weapon of choice.
      I wonder how they will handle disseminating the stark truth contained within the Bill – that its provisions are founded on Scottish popular sovereignty and is specifically designed to give the people of Scotland the power to hold and organise IndyRef2 without needing London’s permission?

    53. Dr Jim says:

      The Unionist question

      Unionists argue they don’t want Independence for Scotland under any circumstances, in fact many Unionists argue they would abolish the Scottish parliament as well

      At the moment under the current system England outvotes Scotland 10 to 1 on every political issue confronting Scotland, so Scotland is forced to depend on luck if England decides something that might benefit Scotland and as England mostly votes for Conservative governments which Scotland invariably does not, that one hasn’t worked out particularly well

      Who speaks for Scotland in a system where the Unionists get their way, because if their intention is to remove that tier of government while imperfect at least at the moment it has some say

      Post 2014 the Smith commission was set up to deliver a fairer devolution settlement for Scotland but the three Unionist parties were given a vote each on that commission as against the SNP and the Greens one vote each, the three Unionst parties voted against Scotland gaining more devolution so once again Scotland was outvoted in what was supposed to be its own commission by parties who represent the interests of the larger UK which as we know is England, the bit that outvotes us by 10 to 1

      Scotland does get more powers by dribbles and bits because of the SNP, who if they weren’t there no power would be forthcoming at all in fact power would be returning to England if the Unionists had their way

      So what is the reasonable argument that Unionists have against Scotland deciding its own future, they can’t say we’re not up to it, Scotland invented half the modern world there has been no country on earth since the time of the Greek civilisation that has made a bigger contribution to the planet than Scotland, so what’s the Unionist argument, what are they talking about

      Well if you’re a Unionist politician the answer is a Knighthood or a Lordship if you argue against Scottish Independence, but if you’re Joe Public you get nothing, in fact because you’re Scottish you get less than the guy in England who outvotes you by 10 to 1

      Why are Unionists happy about that

    54. Abulhaq says:

      Many of the new candidates for English PM are beginning to sound alike? Like smarmy, pushy chancers with the gift of Faragist newspeak.
      By comparison Gove & Johnson present as a models of high statesmanship.
      North Brit Labour region is a backwater. Hi, I’m Richard Leonard, Sorry, say again?
      Btw…when will the Scottish Revolution begin? Must be my New Scot DNA talking, but how do Old Scots stay so cool? Insult piled on insult? Still waters running deep or simply the drawback to a Nationalist tsunami?

    55. Josef Ó Luain says:

      All this waiting for the old to die so that the new can be born, is playing havoc with my patience. There should be laws and mechanisms in place to move these dullard bastards out of the way on the very first whiff of their putrescence.

    56. Muscleguy says:

      @Cactus
      2nd gear would be better, the battery is flat and they will have to crash start the clown car. Problem is they parked it at the bottom of a glen and the only roads are up and up.

      They have convened a committee to thrash out who is excused pushing duties. A rash of self declarations by former Men has happened and are now claiming to be weak and feeble women and unable to push.

      As the camera pans away and the sad, slightly comic music (there must be a tuba) rises, so do the voices. Oor man Leonard is stting in the driving seat of the clown car staring fixedly ahead.

    57. David says:

      Is it possible for James Kelly to be the new leader? Labour are thick enough to consider that would be a good idea. James Kelly – man of the people.

    58. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gary says:29 May, 2019 at 3:49 am:

      … My God, just how dense was he that he’s only getting his head round this NOW!

      I knew the writing was on the Scottish, (sic), Labour wall when London sent their man up to Glasgow to deselect the sitting councillor candidates and replace them with candidates chosen by London Labour.

      Most deselected councillors left Labour, some deselected councillors then stood against the London chosen candidates and some even joined the SNP.

      I posted then that the Writing was on the wall for Labour. but it has taken longer than I thought. I’d postulate this was not due to my predictive capacity but down to Scottish Labour just being far too thick to read the writing on the wall.

      When the leadership in London over rule the local constituency associations it shows that the local constituency has drifted away from the London party fundamental line but the real problem is, and we all knew it, was that London Labour had moved to the right in order to win votes from middle England under Tony Blair and he took Gordon Brown and co. in Scottish Labour along with him but Scotland is not part of Middle England. As we see now neither is middle Scotland.

    59. Greannach says:

      David @ 09.13

      Yes. Please make Labour’s next branch manager James Kelly MSP. Please.

    60. mike cassidy says:

      Stu drew attention to this on twitter

      The reality of being an English ‘remain’ labour mp in a divided constituency where almost nobody wants a second EU referendum.

      But it was this bit that drew my attention.

      ” The only route to Number 10 runs through our leave-voting towns and our remain-voting cities; through Scotland, Wales, Lewisham and Bolsover. “

      Nice to know we rate as highly as Bolsover in her mind.

      Not so sure their MP for half a century, Denis Skinner, will be pleased.

      http://archive.is/feSYr

    61. Nana says:

      Here is the Referendums (Scotland) Bill – https://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/Bills/111844.aspx …. As expected, it is a framework bill, which can be applied by ministerial order to any particular referendum. This gets round competence constraints, because the order-making power will be read as applying only (1)

      https://twitter.com/AileenMcHarg/status/1133651965643243520

    62. manandboy says:

      LABOUR – ALWAYS A PART OF THE BRITISH UNIONIST ESTABLISHMENT

      With FPTP, the Westminster Establishment keeps its stranglehold on UK power & wealth, through the Tory and Labour parties. Democracy in the UK is a loaded dice.

      http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/05/29/the-european-elections-proved-the-need-to-reform-britain-s-v

      The tide has turned in UK politics, and with it, Scottish Independence will reach the shore.

      It is time. Vote SNP. Join the SNP. Be a Nation again.

    63. jfngw says:

      Even if Labour in Scotland declared they now were converted to independence would you believe them. Or would you think it was just another vow in the hope of reducing the SNP support that allows their Tory partners across Scotland into power.

      My feeling is they would do anything to preserve the union, there is no such thing as Labour values with them, only unionist values.

    64. Nana says:

      Legal framework set out for referendums in Scotland.

      The Scottish Government has today published legislation to set the rules for any referendum within the competence of the Scottish Parliament

      https://www.gov.scot/news/referendums-bill/

    65. Nana says:

      Just published a Bill to set the rules for an independence referendum – to allow the Scottish people to choose our own future rather than having a Brexit future imposed on us. @Feorlean will update @ScotParl later on it and our plans for cross party talks and a Citizens’ Assembly
      https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1133657854735454208

      Ministerial statement 1.30pm
      https://bb.parliament.scot/#20190529

    66. galamcennalath says:

      Brexit. A depressingly probable view from Gina Miller …

      “… the grim reality is that with so many unscrupulous politicians so close to taking the leadership of the Conservative party, and the office of prime minister, a no-deal Brexit seems more likely than ever before … “

      http://archive.is/ERRPW

      Meanwhile WM is doing absolutely nothing as the days roll past.

    67. Welsh Sion says:

      Carwyn (‘our’) ex-First Minister (Labour) is now calling for a summer referendum on EU membership.

      The two referendum questions to be asked acc. to Carwyn – leave or remain and to leave with or without a deal.

      What do Corbyn and Leonard have to say about that?

    68. jfngw says:

      Just when you think things are getting bad the BBC decides it’s time for some WWII celebrations (is 75 years some landmark or just an excuse). A bit of a waste of time as everybody in my family that took part in the event has passed on a number of years ago.

      Also my father who was in North Africa and Southern Italy would never talk about the war, I only found out about where he was from my mother. He never wanted to celebrate it.

    69. Frank Gillougley says:

      I noticed the stark comparative figures between SNP and sLAB for the European elections between 2014 and 2019.

      In short, over 5 years sLAB (under Murphy, Dugdale & Leonard) have lost 200,000 Voters to the SNP amounting to a real difference of 400,000 votes in terms of swing etc.

      Leonard must stay. Keep living the lie.

    70. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The Evening Times poll:

      ‘Do you want a second Scottish independence referendum?’

      Final result:

      Total votes cast – 23,444

      Yes, 65%
      No 35%

    71. Dr Jim says:

      On Sky news this morning a woman representing Labour said that the *compliance committee* should expel every member of the Labour party who didn’t or doesn’t vote Labour

      That’s a heck of a lot of Scotland then

      Who’s the cult now

      A Brexit party man was interviewed by Adam Boulton and the Brexit man said the *whole country* want’s Brexit because they won the election
      Adam Boulton said “well clearly Scotland and Northern Ireland don’t want it because you didn’t win there”

      The Brexit man answered this by smirking and waving his hand in a dismissive manner
      The words he didn’t say were *Scotland and Northern Ireland don’t count*

    72. Cubby says:

      Glenn Campbell on BBC news saying there will be another indyref but just not for a long time. A very long time. He says the UK will not allow it. Sturgeon will not be having a referendum next year he says. So we are in a prison are we Glenn? The UK union is a union by an international treaty. If we cannot cancel the Treaty then it is a prison.

      It is not ordinary English people keeping us in this prison called Her Majesty’s Union it is people like Campbell from Islay. People like Campbell pretending to be objective news reporters when really he is an ultra unionist whose career depends on the union. He is a propagandist.

    73. Iain mhor says:

      @Patrick Roden 12:16am
      Though I can’t speak for your particular instance I can, anecdotally, for a few others of my acquaintance.
      It turns out that many Scots actually have a soft spot for Scotland despite also being wedded to the Union. The relentless attacks on Scotland are not welcome. The message spilled from anti-SNP to anti-Scotland. Labour had been perceived as being a bulwark against the more rabid Tory elements, but instead joined them in these attacks. That’s been said often here and elsewhere too.

      At first it seems it’s precisely the lack of standing up for Scotland and defending against harsh Tory policies which caused the rift. It gets a little interesting though – the hazy idea is : ‘there was always going to be a Union forever anyway and that was fine, so “Scottish Labour” were to operate for Scotland within it’. But the shift to being a Unionist party was also the problem for “Scottish Labour”. They were not previously perceived as ‘defenders of the Union’ first and foremost – that was not their function. The Union in this case, was a permanent concept which was another domain entirely and of no concern of Scotland, merely something superimposed on Scotland. “Scottish Labour” were supposed to be defenders of the workie and the constituency in Scotland.

      Previously, there was no SNP, there had been no alternative. “Scottish Labour” was the Scottish party. then in seemingly short order, the SNP arose and started doing Scottish Labours job, while “Scottish Labour” became the London Labour Unionist Party – So not merely poor defenders, they morphed into London Labour and became strangers to Scotland – at least this seems the vague idea. Even at constituency level, they jumped into bed with the Tories rather than working with the SNP, a big betrayal.
      That was the general distillation from a few lifelong Labour voters I’ve spoken with. Yes we know there is no such thing as “Scottish Labour” but that is today – for Labour supporters in the past, there appparently was and that Scottish party is gone – that makes them very sad.

    74. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian B.

      Have you got a real link (non-twitter) for that poll result? The page I have is showing 91% YES, 9% NO, with 6129 votes, poll closed. Or was yours Twitter only?

      https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/17590763.scottish-independence-nicola-sturgeon-to-give-update-on-second-referendum/?ref=ar

    75. Bobp says:

      I would never vote for any party other than SNP till Scotland becomes an independent nation. And even after that,I’d have to seriously think about it.

    76. galamcennalath says:

      ” · European Council president Donald Tusk says that he believes that the recent European Parliament elections have shown that Brexit has been a vaccine against anti-EU propaganda. “

      On one level, he’s right. Leaving the EU is a bloody stupid idea and has been shown to be just that.

      However, on another level he hasn’t got it quite right. The chaos isn’t actually about leaving the EU, most of it is being caused by English Nationalist entitlement and exceptionalism with dose of total ignorance – they want the EU to give them what they want, and they also insist the whole UK accompanies England despite others not wishing to.

      Add it this a completely incompetent opposition at WM from Labour.

      Should any other country wish to leave the EU, it is highly unlikely they would make such a complete hash if it! They would probably do the planning before actually committing to leave!

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/brexit-has-been-a-vaccine-against-anti-eu-propaganda-says-tusk-1.3908080

    77. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim @10.26am

      The whole country is England. It is always England.

      On last nights BBC Newsnight it started with a statement saying the winners of the EU election are – they then displayed a graphic showing the Brexit party and the Lib Dems. No SNP Scotland does not exist. Of course the Lib Dems did not win anything.

    78. While I’m enjoying watching Labour and the Tories disintegrate.

      though I for one won’t be relaxing and will continue getting stuck into them at every opportunity.

    79. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 10:26,

      I caught some radio interview recently with Ian Blackford (I think it was), and the interviewer’s killer line was asking – well, more like stating – “but anyway you [the SNP] are impotent, aren’t you?”.

      These people think they are putting us in our place, not realising that every time they say that kind of thing they are making our case for us, that we will never get a fair deal while stuck in London.

      And the conclusion that more and more people here are reaching is the obvious one.

    80. Tam fae somewhere says:

      James Kelly for Labour (Scottish Branch) first line manager job please!

      Knowing him during his school days I am gob smacked that he has got anywhere near potentially gets his hands on the levers of power in Scotland.

    81. admiral says:

      Bobp says:
      29 May, 2019 at 10:36 am
      I would never vote for any party other than SNP till Scotland becomes an independent nation. And even after that,I’d have to seriously think about it.

      THIS! The SNP is the only realistic vehicle to deliver independence. All this “I support indepence but only if things are exactly the way I want them” is just a distraction from the main goal. Either you support Scotland being independent or you don’t.

    82. Cubby says:

      Iain Mhor@10.29am

      I am sure that in the minds of many older Labour supporters in Scotland they genuinely felt there was a genuine “Scottish” Labour in the past but it was just an illusion – a con trick. Labour was always a Britnat party controlled by London. I am sure there are a lot of sad Labour supporters. No one likes to think they have been conned for most of their life.

      At least the Tories put Unionist in the name of the party. Labour did not as they had to maintain their illusion.

      There are only two Scottish parties in Holyrood – SNP and Scottish Greens.

    83. Dr Jim says:

      Michael Gove in an earlier incarnation said that Scottish people don’t rise in England they’re more likely to be found under a bridge drunk with their hand out to an Englishman

      And he said that on National Television but I can’t find the bloody clip now

      Michael Gove speaks with a pretendy Scottishy Englishy mixture of an accent in the hope to appeal to all sides, in truth he’s a dead fish that needs thrown back in the sea where he came from, what an embarrassment to Aberdeen

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @McBoxheid says: 29 May, 2019 at 7:30 am:

      ” … If you follow orders from a foreign country’s (England: We are in a union with them, not part of them.)”

      Sorry to point this out to you, McBoxheid, but you have begun this comment by setting off down the same wrong track as have the Westminster Establishment and that is fundamentally the real problem. The name of this political state is, “The United KINGDOM,” but you are commenting about it as if it is a union of countries. However, let’s read on.

      ” … We are in a union with them, not part of them.)

      Exactly, but what we are in union with is a three country Kingdom of England and, unlike Wales and N.I. we are, (legally), an equally sovereign full partner kingdom along with the 3 country Kingdom of England. This makes Scotland’s case a great deal stronger than either Wales and N.I. However, both of the English Kingdom’s two annexed countries have strong, but different, cases for their independence.

      ” … politcal parties, when they are in melt down, the last thing they think about is other countries (Scotland, N.I. and Wales). They have to deal with their own domestic crisis first, before they have time to think about foreign policy (what to do in Scotland, N.I. and Wales).”

      Now rethink that statement in the light of the United Kingdom being a two kingdom partnership of equally sovereign kingdoms. The Westminster Establishment has been a broken treaty since 1 May 1707 because the new parliament that sat that day was a two equally sovereign partnership of kingdoms but it continued as if it was still the old parliament of the Kingdom of England that had annexed the country of Scotland but the old parliament of the Kingdom of England had legally put itself into permanent recess from 30 April 1707.

      That is the problem that has dogged, “The Union”, until this day and unless those opposing the union can see it as that then they weaken, or even lose, the whole sorry mess we find ourselves in today.

      The very fact you are here looking at the problem as if the Union is what Westminster said it was on 1 May 1707 instead of what you see as a four country union of countries with the country of England ruling over three English dominions that England has devolved English sovereign powers to then you are just following the orders that Westminster is the real parliament of England when the truth is that Westminster is but the illegal, de facto, parliament of England.

      In other words you are accepting what Westminster has brainwashed you to accept while the facts are that the United Kingdom is factually a two partner union of equally sovereign kingdoms and the proof of that pudding stares you in the face in, “The Treaty of Union”.

      I’ll condense all that into one statement.

      The Treaty of Union is the real legal Written Constitution of, “The United Kingdom”, but has never been honoured by the Kingdom of England since 1 May 1707.

      So you are on the right track but need to begin the argument right at the start of the Union. A Union that has never been honoured by the Kingdom of England since day one of the Union.

      That is a totally legally watertight case and the way forward is to show, as has already been done, that the union is a two partner union of kingdoms, not of countries, and that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and want to end the Union as is their legal right as a sovereign people.

    85. Abulhaq says:

      @Dr Jim 10:54
      He shares that Unionist cringe with out and proud Davidson and that woman, forget her name, that used to head Labour’s Scottish branch. Does Rennie do the cringe too?
      Why the type does not just take the high road to the Home counties perplexes me.
      Scotch Useful Idiots for English Hegemony..tney might start a party, oops, my mistake, we already have three

    86. gus1940 says:

      O/T

      We have long been accustomed to the deluge of multi billion infrastructure schemes in London and the SE financed by the taxpayers of the rest of the UK.

      However to add to the list last night I watched a program about the flooding crisis facing London and its surroundings due to rising sea levels and rainfall increases.

      Although no figure was given of the projected costs of providing a solution the word Billions was mentioned.

      Given the content of the program the cost will be massive and the number of Billions will be astronomical.

      Any likelihood that the tab will be picked up by the London & SE taxpayers is laughable.

      As usual the mugs of the rest of The UK and Scotland will be bled dry as our wealth and assets are sucked out of us to feed the greedy mouths of our colonial masters..

    87. Breeks says:

      Dr Jim says:
      29 May, 2019 at 10:54 am
      Michael Gove in an earlier incarnation said that Scottish people don’t rise in England they’re more likely to be found under a bridge drunk with their hand out to an Englishman

      And he said that on National Television but I can’t find the bloody clip now…

      Wee Ginger Dug has it…

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/

    88. Dr Jim says:

      Yep, They keep telling Scotland to our faces that we don’t count, no matter what we say no matter what we vote for or against Scotland doesn’t count

      For more than 300 years the politicians and country of England have smirked arrogantly at the nation of Scotland who but for us would all be dead of syphillis and would still be screaming in pain had we not invented Penicillin and Anaesthetics or modern economics while they were still making clay pots, and today they use another Scottish invention (The Television) against us in their propaganda war on Scotland

      There’s only one thing England has more of than Scotland, and it’s people, who they brought in from all over the world to work for them renamed themselves The British Empire and now they want rid of the ones they don’t like the look of using the pretence of politics that it’s somethng to do with the European Union being bad

      The world sees racism, they’re not bloody stupid, Scotland’s been suffering from it for 300 years
      You don’t have to be people of colour to be discriminated against

      What’s your favourite nickname for a Scot or an Irishman or a Welshman and where did that nickname come from

      But it’s only friendly banter isn’t it, they say

      Well no it’s not and that’s why I employ a *hostile environment* for anybody who uses it, remember who came up with *hostile environment*

      Now it’s my F…..g turn,

      Keep saying it, see what happens

    89. Dr Jim says:

      @Breeks

      That’s the very clip, thank you so much, I hope everyone plays that and takes in what the Tories think is extremely funny

    90. Abulhaq says:

      The linked article from the Glasgow Herald reporting the creation of the SNP in 1934 and critiquing its aims is interesting.
      https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=eKRAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=j6UMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2659%2C4639120
      For the 21st century Unionist parties time has stood still, Scotland needs England etc and its still all just about economics too.

    91. Dr Jim says:

      @galancennalath

      Sorry I was posting just as you put the same clip

      The whole of Scotland needs to see this kind of behaviour to understand our real position in these Islands

      I’ve always thought, a bit like black people that we can make fun of ourselves but when other people do it it’s insulting and racist, with one caveat ……intent!

      If it’s really not meant to offend then it’s plain and obvious and humorous, but we can tell the difference and that’s where the offence comes in, they think we’re too stupid to notice, again offensive

    92. Cubby says:

      Boris Johnston being taken to court for lying about the info on the big red bus prior to the EU referendum.

      Well if Britnats are going to be taken to court for lying the courts are going to be very busy for a long time.

      Let’s see some of the Scot Britnats in a Scottish court for lying to the people of Scotland.

    93. galamcennalath says:

      A judge has said Boris Johnson must go on trial for allegedly “lying and misleading the British public” about the consequences of Brexit. He’s not the only one!

    94. Greannach says:

      The “Cringe” should be developed into a dance with a set of agreed and defined moves. The head should be lowered and the eyes facing the ground. One arm should be politely raised as if asking permission then stretched out as if wiping a colonial master’s backside.

      It some choreographer could work on it, it could become as impressive as a Busby Berkeley music. Instead of “Gold Diggers of 1933”, it could be “Arse Lickers of 2019”.

      In place of Ginger Rodgers and Fred Astaire, we could look forward to the slnky moves of Willie Rennie, Ruth Davidson and whoever has been left to switch off the lights for Labour. I take it we won’t be having Neil Findlay as a dashing Gene Kelly.

    95. Petra says:

      @ Dr Jim … Let’s not forget that Ruth Davidson is another one who’s keen to demean the Scots in an attempt to sook up to the English, especially her London masters.

      ”The Tory MSP added: “Usually they put the Scots in a place where nothing can be broken. Or stolen for that matter!”

      http://indyref2.scot/fury-as-ruth-davidson-compares-scots-to-vandals-and-thieves

    96. geeo says:

      @robert peffers@11.02am

      It seems unbelievable that you still have to explain the constitutional reality of the United Kingdom on here, but i suppose if it is still helping, then it is still worth repeating.

      I would suggest that Devolution is the ultimate breach of the treaty of union, as WM has never had the proper authority to devolve power from a Parliament that Scotland is a legally equal founding partner of.

      Its like devolving power from yourself, to yourself.

      Bit of an error by WM unionists, as it gave our Sovereign People political recourse.

      As you often say, robert, when Holyrood was announced as the reconvened Scottish Parliament, rather than the ‘new’ parliament, was a seminal moment for the indy cause.

      I wonder how certain naysayers on here will choose to comment later on today after the indyref legislation statement this afternoon ?

      You know, how the SNP are “doing nothing”.

    97. Petra says:

      Boris to face the music for lying to the UK public, which will probably come to nought of course, but why not Gove? Farage is another who should be behind bars right now too.

      ‘WATCH: Lord Sugar says Michael Gove and Boris Johnson should be jailed over NHS Brexit pledge.’

      http://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/99351/watch-lord-sugar-says-michael-gove-and-boris-johnson

    98. Cubby says:

      Gus1940@11.13am

      Spot on comment. I also saw this programme. Londoners will have to wear their wellies going to work in future decades.

      The only point I would add to your post is that a figure of £4 billion was quoted for the PART of the work that was for more drainage tunnels under London.

      Scotlands oil money being used to keep Londoners dry.

    99. Breeks says:

      Gove is no different from Davidson, maligning the presence of Scots at big events for getting drunk and stealing things.

      I wonder if they enjoy seeing the 300 Spartans betrayed by Ephialtes of Trachis, or whether it maybe makes them a wee bit uncomfortable to watch when the Persians line his pockets with Xerxes gold after selling his heroic countrymen down the river.

    100. galamcennalath says:

      Brussels is moving to break up the team that negotiated Theresa May’s Brexit deal, in the most concrete sign yet that the EU has absolutely no intention of re-opening talks on the treaty. (From Independent).

      And still, Tory leadership candidates fantasise (or lie) about changing the backstop.

    101. McBoxheid says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      29 May, 2019 at 11:02 am

      @McBoxheid says: 29 May, 2019 at 7:30 am:

      I agree with you that what you said is the correct case in terms or international terms and treaties of hundreds od years ago. However, if the other 2 states N.I. and Wales, voted with a majority for separation, present day political precedence would become far more relevant than a treaty from way back when they were occupied.

      The UN agrees that each country/state/people have the right to govern themselves. With enough present day political pressure, especially from N.I. with their own particular recent political past, they would have little trouble becoming independent and get U.N. recognition for it.

      The Northern Irish have the chance of becoming independent in the EU or out of it, or reunification with the Republic of Ireland. There is even recent precedent, with German reunification* and the splitting up of the former Yugoslavia.

      If England tried to reocuppy either of their former occupied territories, then not only would the U.N. have something to say about it, but also the E.U. especially if they were wanting to rejoin. They would both pile on the pressure with sanctions that a recently isolated England seeking trade agreements, would have major problems with.

      Nobody would be interested in getting involved with a country that used to be a pretty nasty empirial power that probably was at war with, or occupied all or part of their own county as recently as the first half of the last centuary.

      *I know the circumstances are different, but recent precedence is quite a powerful argument in international law.

    102. Footsoldier says:

      I am on board with breaking the Treaty of Union but I have 2 questions:

      a) Was it not an incorporating union from which it is not possible to pull out?
      b) Why do we never hear the SNP talk about it, even if only to educate the English that it was a union of two countries?

    103. call me dave says:

      The Hootsman!

      “Reckless government wanting an irresponsible independence referendum in the middle of ‘the countries’constitutional crisis” says Pamela Nash.

      But…but, Pamela maybe Scots
      like bread and butter and toast and jam at the same time.

      PS:
      Did ye hear Toodle-oo-the-noo on radio shortbread calming the nation this morning chipping in with the Union backstop

      ‘Westminster must agree to acknowledge the result’

      A tone down from Unionist others saying ‘agree permission to hold a referendum’

      Interesting little change, maybe Brian swithering. 🙂

    104. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 12:11,

      It seems that people are finally catching on to Flip-flop Gal, so maybe the tipping point for tolerance of this kind of ingratiating self-loathing will soon be reached.

      It’s not even as if they are personally getting paid for this kind of thing, though their sham autonomous branch offices certainly are. They forelock-tug for free, for a few cheap laughs from their “betters”. In Ruthie’s case, not exactly compatible with her preferred media persona as “feisty”.

      But then, her much-promoted 13-strong little band haven’t ever “gone over the top” for Scotland, have they? Cowered in their deep little trench, more like.

    105. galamcennalath says:

      Popular candidate Johnston is being taken to court for allegedly misleading the public.

      Bercow says parliament will make the decision on ‘no deal’.

      The EU have said no more negotiating, again, and dissolving their team to prove it.

      Labour having real difficulty in following which day of the week it is.

      Scotland’s stars seem to be aligning.

    106. McBoxheid says:

      geeo says:
      29 May, 2019 at 12:02 pm

      @robert peffers@11.02am

      It seems unbelievable that you still have to explain the constitutional reality of the United Kingdom on here, but i suppose if it is still helping, then it is still worth repeating.
      _________________________

      Did you even read my post?

      I am well aware of the contitutional reality of the United Kingdom. Modern political precendence is also relevant to the current set up, as I went to explain in my later post.

      Christ almighty, every time someone mentions the union that is the United Kingdom, but doesn’t quote chapter and verse, then they are pulled up by the constitutional thought police. I was talking about the unionist labour party and the political reality and did not want to go into the ins and outs of the union of crowns, the union of parliament and all of the relevant treaties with all the dots crossed, because my post was long enough and it wasn’t essential to put my point of view across.

      Your attitude puts people off posting and contributing in their way.
      I didn’t realise this was a club and posts had to be vetted espressly by you. May be if you relaxed a bit, then more lurkers would actually contribute on here.

    107. Dan says:

      Breeks says: at 12:11 pm

      Gove is no different from Davidson, maligning the presence of Scots at big events for getting drunk and stealing things.

      Hmm, yet they don’t appear to have a problem with some politicians getting drunk on subsidised drink at the “big parliament” and stealing things…

    108. Dr Jim says:

      Labour always call themselves the party of devolution

      Huge monster big fat lie when it happened then and a big fat lie now

      Tony Blair’s *devolution* deal with another Scottish cringer Donald Dewar was a Scottish pretendy parliament for Labour to keep carrying out the wishes of the London Tory party in exchange for 6.000 square miles of Scottish waters containing, you guessed it OIL, but this oil was to be English oil not UK sharing oot oil, but English oil, ooh and gas

      You’ll hear Unionists saying the SNP were against devolution, well at first they damn well were and you can see why, the SNP were against the theft of Scotland’s oil that’s why, and they were against the stitch up between London and the great Scottish cringers like Dewar who’s only single intention behind devolution was he believed a cementing of fiefdom over Scotland for the Labour party forever more, maybe some haven’t figured out why Labour hate the SNP so much, well that’s why

      The SNP wanted Independence then and think of where we’d have been if Labour had really been on the side of Scotland

      Donald Dewar and the Labour party in Scotland helped the Tories in England rob Scotland and it’s people of £billions of an income that should have been ours in our own Independent Land

      That’s the legacy of Labour

      There are Scots out there to this day who’ll say *Aye but it’s too late noo*

      It’s never too late to put a wrong right, it’s just about having the guts to do it and stop lying down

      If a wee Lassie from Ayr can work hard and rise to be First Minister of my country and take all the abusive shit she takes every day on my behalf then I can at least stand behind her and offer her every support I can to get our country back, even if it’s just leaflets through a door I’m right there

    109. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      call me dave @ 12:21,

      When we finally get round to having another referendum, and it delivers more than 50% for indy (as it likely will), Westminster can go whistle. The game will be up and everyone will know it.

      Though I can see them try to fob us off with a last-minute Super-Dooper-Devo-Fedo-Max New Union Treaty instead. Which we should firmly but politely decline.

      We ex-Devo-Maxers have since acquired rather a taste for having our own foreign and defence policies, thank-you-ever-so-much.

    110. Golfnut says:

      Boris going to court, so lying to the public during the constitutional process could be deemed criminal, are you watch this better together and your media enablers.

    111. Effijy says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      29 May, 2019 at 10:20 am
      The Evening Times poll:

      ‘Do you want a second Scottish independence referendum?’

      Final result:

      Total votes cast – 23,444

      Yes, 65%
      No 35%

      Ian, I can see the Headline now.

      Borrowed votes for independence beaten by the No voters.

      Under London Westminster Rules all No votes are multiplied by 10
      and as they played their Joker they get a bonus Million No’s on top.

      There is no appetite for accurate calculations in Scotland! lol

    112. Petra says:

      @ Greannach says at 11:47 am … ”The “Cringe” should be developed into a dance with a set of agreed and defined moves. The head should be lowered and the eyes facing the ground. One arm should be politely raised as if asking permission then stretched out as if wiping a colonial master’s backside. It some choreographer could work on it, it could become as impressive as a Busby Berkeley music. Instead of “Gold Diggers of 1933”, it could be “Arse Lickers of 2019”. In place of Ginger Rodgers and Fred Astaire, we could look forward to the slinky moves of Willie Rennie, Ruth Davidson and whoever has been left to switch off the lights for Labour. I take it we won’t be having Neil Findlay as a dashing Gene Kelly.”

      “Arse Lickers of 2019.” Brilliant idea Greannach. I LOVE it. This is the kind of thing that we should be doing. Going on the offensive, turning the tables on them and getting our message across whilst having great fun all over Scotland too. Wouldn’t the ‘Cringe’ go down well at AUOB marches? Meanwhile we’ll continue to listen to the brilliant ‘Cap in Hand.’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNCFR8SqioE

      ……………………

      C’mon Scots get off of your knees, FGS. NOW is the time to get out of this farce of a ‘Union’ following over 300 years of subjugation. Make an effort to enlighten yourself as to how rich Scotland is in relation to our manifold resources and assets, question the lies, fake news and propaganda that’s being fed to you on a daily basis and then buck yourself up to protect our beautiful country and the future of our children and grandchildren from the highly corrupt Establishment down south. We CAN do it with YOUR help.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCo1RjxRFvs

    113. Proud Cybernat says:

      So my understanding of the Referendums (Scotland) Bill being introduced today in HR is a framework Bill to be applied to any future referendum. It’s not the akchul IndyRef2 Bill itself.

      I know it’s important to have this so that we can trigger the akchul Bill at a moment’s notice but still feeling a wee tad let doon.

      It’s still a good step forward though.

    114. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      call me dave @ 12:21,

      Oh, and I also detected a hint of a change in Brian’s attitude. In that interview with Toom Tabard, where he clearly started losing patience with the government tea-boy buffoon’s manifest truth inversions.

      The internet has a long memory, and is helping keep them honest. Not least of all WoS.

    115. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 12:54,

      Don’t be. It’s smart thinking. It’s entirely neutral, so there is no way that PO Mackintosh can object to it. Nor can any legal challenge to competence stop it. The only way it could be stopped would be if the UKGov were to repeat recent dastardly manoevres and explicitly pass a bill in the HoC to prevent it. And that would itself set a constitutional hare running.

      No, this is slowly-slowly-catchee-monkey. Trust me on this, since I’m one of the “impatientistas”. It’s clever.

    116. Davy says:

      I WILL 100% VOTE FOR (James Kelly), he is the closest to a figure both visually and verbally from Trumpton that Labour have got.

      He is an absolute ‘shoe’ in, once someone ties his laces for him.

      James Kelly for top labour “thingy ma boab”.

    117. Capella says:

      The Bill is approved by both the Lord Advocate and the Presiding Officer – so I read today somewhere but forget where.
      The statement is due at 13.30 so watch it on scottishparlaiment tv if you want to avoid the BBC filters and licences.

      https://www.scottishparliament.tv

    118. Proud Cybernat says:

      @RJS

      Aye – ah can see it’s “clever”. Good to have the right to hold our own referendums passed in law at HR defining the franchise etc.

      I just felt it was being touted as THE ‘IR2 Bill’ and it’s a good bit short from that. When the akchul IR2 Bill is passed by HR and goes to Lizzie for Royal Assent, I think that is when things will really kick-off.

      Hope Feorlean has more to say at 1:30pm.

    119. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 29 May, 2019 at 10:26 am:

      ” … A Brexit party man was interviewed by Adam Boulton and the Brexit man said the *whole country* want’s Brexit because they won the election
      Adam Boulton said “well clearly Scotland and Northern Ireland don’t want it because you didn’t win there”
      The Brexit man answered this by smirking and waving his hand in a dismissive manner
      The words he didn’t say were *Scotland and Northern Ireland don’t count”

      Funny enough I had just such an argument, more a monologue on the unionist guy’s part.

      However this guy did say, “It was a UK countrywide vote and the whole of Britain voted to leave”.

      So I asked him what did the initials UK stand for and he, of course replied United Kingdom.

      So I said, not united country then. This only threw him for a brief moment and he insisted that everybody knew Britain was a country. I said he should try telling that to the people of the Irish Republic.

      It ended up with him claiming that the UK and Britain meant the same thing. So I said that’ll be the same as calling it all England then – he decided to harrumph and walk away muttering to himself. I don’t suppose it convinced him of anything but it sure as hell demonstrated the unionist mindset.

    120. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 13:06,

      I don’t know enough about these things, but there may be no need now for an “IR2 Bill”. It may only require an executive order to apply the present bill to the purpose.

      But maybe someone else knows more…?

    121. Petra says:

      @ Golfnut says at 12:40 pm …. ”Boris going to court, so lying to the public during the constitutional process could be deemed criminal, are you watch this better together and your media enablers.”

      Spot on Golfnut. Let’s not forget about the lying that went on in the lead up to IndyRef1. The lying that led to people voting no for Independence. We would have had a case against dozens of people, if not hundreds including Brown, if we’d considered doing so. Well it may be too late for that now but this should send a warning shot across the bow of anyone thinking of lying to the Scots in the lead up to IndyRef2. We’ll be watching YOU and taking note.

      ……………………….

      @ Dr Jim says at 12:40 pm …. ”If a wee Lassie from Ayr can work hard and rise to be First Minister of my country and take all the abusive shit she takes every day on my behalf then I can at least stand behind her and offer her every support I can to get our country back, even if it’s just leaflets through a door I’m right there.”

      Well said, Dr Jim. Can anyone imagine where we would be without her right now? Westminster hovering like a vulture ready to take control over every aspect of Scotland, frack us to death and so on. Can anyone imagine what it would be like if Davidson, Rennie or Leonard were calling the shots for us instead of Nicola Sturgeon? Now is the time for everyone to get behind her and instead of putting all of your time and effort into discrediting her on here (and other so-called pro-Independence sites) why not use your precious time to focus on destroying our adversaries, most of all by using this site to get enlightening data out there.

    122. Petra says:

      @ Proud Cybernat says at 1:06 pm …”When the akchul IR2 Bill is passed by HR and goes to Lizzie for Royal Assent, I think that is when things will really kick-off.”

      Let’s hope that Lizzie doesn’t pop her clogs before then PC or the Establishment come up with some kind of ”she’s indisposed’ excuse. And no doubt if she does sign it and we get our Independence Scotland will be accused of ‘doing her in’, lol, when she does head off to join her maker aged 93 plus.

    123. Abulhaq says:

      Emmanuel Macron believes the Brits will leave deal or no deal. As far as he is concerned the UK is disruptive, reactionary and something of a waste of EU space. In his view the Brit presence impedes much needed institutional reform. The Germans daren’t say that, but on the whole they agree with the sentiment. Even the anglophile Swedes now concur.
      Over to you Scottish electorate, swim free or sink.

    124. raineach says:

      If it is correct the Presiding Officer and Lord Advocate have signed off the IR2 Bill then that deals with the legal objections to the competence of the referendum. It still leaves Westminster legislating to prevent it and/or the Tories telling their [remaining – no pun intended] voters to boycott. But still a tall hurdle passed

    125. ronnie anderson says:

      Boris’s lawyer asking the court to apply the financial test on the complainant , slippery as a fucking eel .

    126. Stravaiger says:

      Looks like a crowd finder might be needed for Alyn Smith. The Brexit party is threatening legal action over his money landerers comment.

    127. Stravaiger says:

      Funder, not finder.

    128. yesindyref2 says:

      Apparently, the IR Bill is in fact a R Bill, general Referendums, and doesn’t mention Independence. Sneaky 🙂

      https://twitter.com/PeatWorrier

    129. Petra says:

      Forget about the BBC / STV. Check out Professor John Robertson’s site to get the latest Scottish news.

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/

    130. Robert Louis says:

      galamcennalath at 1223pm,

      The whole lot of them Gove, Theresa May Raab, etc.. should be put in jail. The utterly criminal destruction of uk industry and wanton waste caused simply because the Tory party cannot agree within themselves on the EU.

      But the two biggest wasters, who have wasted more money and caused most harm to the entire UK are Farage and Chris Grayling. Paying for Ferry contracts with NO FERRIES, continually screwing up policies at great expense to taxpayers, and so on. And Farage for everything that he denies he has done. Methinks the judge might want to dust off his now-retired black cap for them.

      N.B. I speak in jest, of course, regarding the black cap – afore anybody starts greetin etc…They don’t hang people at present in England.

    131. Terry callachan says:

      Given that Nicola Sturgeon tried hard for another brexit referendum
      If brexit is cancelled
      And bercow is on record today saying that is a possibility
      Because Westminster as he puts it will have its say

      Will the probability of indyref2 be weakened ?
      Will some Scottish people revert back to voting unionist ?

      I have been hoping for brexit followed by a successful indyref2

    132. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Have just seen the Evening Times poll you mentioned earlier. It’s a new one, very slightly different question. Perhaps they didn’t like the way yesterday’s was going.

      The ‘new/improved’ poll asks ‘How would you vote in a second Scottish independence referendum?’

      Votes cast so far, 8,521.

      47% Yes
      53% No

      Here’s the link for those who would like to underscore the 66% Yes response recorded in the previous poll.

      https://twitter.com/TheEveningTimes/status/1133620380365729792

    133. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m watching on this:

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17671114.live-scottish-independence-bill-debate/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor

      and there’s this:

      It is the intention of the Government to hold an independence referendum “towards the end of the term of this parliament” but “an accelerated timetable” should “circumstances change”, continues Russell.

      I LIKE that 🙂

    134. yesindyref2 says:

      This bill is about the “diktat of ministers”, Tomkins adds, asking why ministers should determine questions and not the parliament.

      He brands the bill a “Torjan horse for a wildcast indyref2”.

      As if, perish the thought 😎

    135. Abulhaq says:

      @Terry Callachan 1:47
      A no deal Brexit would the yes deal for success in any second independence referendum.
      Nicola Sturgeon is astute enough to know that. The Stop Brexit photo opps must surely be viewed in that light, I hope.

    136. Clydebuilt says:

      Capella @13.40 Thanks for the link . . . . Went straight to it . .. . . Mike Russell head and shoulders above the opposition.

      Ian Brotherhood @1.49. Looks like you need a twitter account to vote.

    137. call me dave says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Hi Ian I just voted and on my screen it’s

      YES 53%
      NO 47%

      PS:
      I don’t twitter but clicked on Sturgeon’s picture and you get to the story and vote. 🙂

    138. rob turnbull says:

      like ruth the mooth, richard has been humiliated so much that going back on their word comes as easy as breathing

    139. Dr Jim says:

      Ruth Davidson and her collection of *losers* parties (better together) has claimed she will fight the FM every inch of the way and she has *no chance* of securing another Scottish referendum

      Nicola Sturgeon First Minister of Scotland MSP and leader of the SNP party of government and *winners* party said….

      “I won’t waste my breath or my time arguing with a government who might not even be in office when the time comes*

      Now remember folks Ruth Davidson has just promised all her “voter” and the rest of Scotland’s voters plural that she will make sure Nicola Sturgeon has *no chance*

      That says two things, one, Ruth Davidson is prepared to attempt to thwart the chosen will of a democratically elected government the winners of elections and the choice of the Scottish people, think about that for a second

      Two, Ruth Davidson is so arrogant she believes the Tories will win any future election, but even if they don’t Ruth Davidson is making a promise on behalf of the Labour party also to carry out her promise, who would likely be the next government in the event of an election taking place

      If the Labour party in Scotland even have the slightest notion of agreeing with Ruth Davidson’s promises then such as it is the Labour party in Scotland will disappear without trace forever for joining the Tories once again

      If the Liberal Democrats join her in her obsession with Nicola Sturgeon’s shoes watch the Green vote grow

    140. galamcennalath says:

      Mike Russell very good.

      He calls (as Nicola did) for cooperation. He almost certainly believes there will be absolutely no cooperation from the Tories.

      I suspect this tone of willingness to hear other views is made intentionally on the basis that they don’t actually expect it to be forthcoming from the more extreme BritNats.

      I have always suspected the same for input of the devolved governments into the Brexit process, and willingness to compromise on the outcome. The SNP always knew the Tories would have none of it!

      There’s a pattern and that means there’s a plan.

      Patience is difficult, though!

    141. Macart says:

      @ yesindyref2 1.56

      😉 (winky thing)

    142. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 14:02,

      For once I agree with “Two-Jobs”.

    143. orri says:

      I would not waste any time trying to secure an agreement with a government who might not be around to honour it when the time comes. Given we’re nearing the end of the May Government and technically even if there’s is no GE the next will be a different one then it’s pointless.

      A less confusing way to put it is,

      An S30 is an agreement to transfer power from one government to another. Westminster operates on the principle that no government can bind it’s successor. That means even if at this late stage May were to agree to, not grant, an S30 then the next PM’s government might repudiate it.

      The way things stand an S30 might be preferred but the Westminster government is too unstable to rely on one lasting for a week never mind till a referendum can be held. A such proceeding without one may very well be the sensible option. Although if Westminster were to withdraw from an S30 that’d almost guarantee the result would be Yes.

    144. call me dave says:

      I see Sarah Smith has got her hands on the updated shortbread website article on the referendum bill.

      That’s us telt! 🙂

      PS:
      TV News says that both Wales and Scotland put more money into social care than in England.

      I read the other day of a council in England introducing a charge of about £29.00 to assist fallen pensioners in their homes to get back up again. 🙁

    145. Greannach says:

      Nicola Sturgeon’s recent conversation at the Royal Irish Academy with Dearbhail McDonald can be listened to on SoundCloud here:

      https://soundcloud.com/the-royal-irish-academy/nicola-sturgeon-interview-27-05-2019

    146. Nana says:

      Here’s Mike Russell’s statement for anyone who missed it

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB1OvCh3xPU&feature=youtu.be

    147. Dr Jim says:

      The Yes movement riling themselves up along with others helping them to rile themselves up over the FMs inability to wave her magic wand the way they want her to are all leaving the SNP and deciding that they will just get Indepndence themselves

      Well I’m all for them telling me who and how all these Robin Hoods and their merry men will go about this marvellous feat that they say they can achieve better and quicker than our elected members of parliament and the FM who leads them

      It never seems to occur to all these shouters that the FM might know something they don’t know or that her plans don’t include blabbing them all over social media

      If I could just suggest for a moment that just because articles appear in Newspapers usually written by Yoon Goons deliberately designed to wind people up, that they please stop paying attention to the very media we all know lies all of the time

      Stop falling for propaganda, they’re using the same tactic on you as they do with Unionists, and you’re being as gullible as them

      Alex Salmond was great of course he was, but he did tend to blab, and while it was great for the troops everybody and his dog knew what he was planning, this FM will not blab until she’s 100% guaranteed her blab wins

      If the FM fails then you’ve got a point, until then we don’t know Nuthin and they don’t know Nuthin and in my book that’s a good way to pick a fight and win it

    148. geeo says:

      BBC Scorched-land northern regional news, flogging the absolute need for the “permission” of a Section 30, to hold a referendum, for all its worth.

      Which of course is worth zero.

      Wilfully ignorant and misleading the viewer, or got one big shock coming ? (Rhetorical).

      Now the 2014 indyref is “the gold standard” and any new one would need to be the same “gold standard”.

      Meaning: No S.30 = no need to worry about those pesky Scots.

      But hold on, not to be outdone with that batshit crazy thought train, “WM will surely want the question to not have a Yes v No choice, as that is TOO CONFUSING” !!!

      Absolute zoomery write large.

      BBC: fooling nobody.

    149. galamcennalath says:

      SNP email from Nicola just arrived ….

      Earlier today we published the draft legislation that will pave the way for a new referendum on Scottish independence.

      The legislation will set the rules for any referendum held in Scotland – such as who gets to vote and how the campaigns will be regulated.

      Within this parliamentary term, I am determined that Scotland will have the opportunity to choose to be an independent European nation.

      Throughout the Brexit process, Scotland has been treated with contempt by Westminster. Our efforts to find compromise and protect the interests of the people of Scotland, have been ignored.

      Now, we face a choice between two very different futures. On one hand, being dragged out of Europe against our will and locked in to a hard Brexit with all the risks that will entail.

      On the other, Scotland choosing a different and better path. As an independent country, Scotland’s future will be in Scotland’s hands and we can play our full part in the international community.

      http://www.yes.scot is the new platform for our independence campaign – visit the website to sign the independence pledge, download Yes materials and get active.

      We’ll soon announce more ways to get involved more directly in the campaign. You can keep up to date with all the latest developments by following Yes on Facebook and Twitter.

      Now is the time to start conversations with your friends, family and neighbours.

      Together, let’s make it happen.

      Nicola Sturgeon
      SNP Leader

    150. geeo says:

      McBoxheid@12.33pm

      Did I even mention you ?

      It was a general point to another poster on an ongoing requirement to explain something.

      If you equated that to what you posted, thats your fucking problem pal.

    151. Robert Peffers says:

      @McBoxheid says: 29 May, 2019 at 12:33 pm:

      … Did you even read my post?”

      First of all just which of the two commenters you indicated in this reply are you addressing your current remarks?

      However I will, going by the context, assume it is me.

      ” … I am well aware of the contitutional reality of the United Kingdom. Modern political precendence is also relevant to the current set up, as I went to explain in my later post.”

      Err! When a reply is made to a current comment the replier has obviously not yet read your further comments.

      The content of your comment replied to clearly shows you do not know the constitutional reality. Rather that you seemed to refer to the, actually illegal, constitutional actuality. i.e. The situation where the English Kingdom, while calling itself the United Kingdom, has taken it upon itself to devolve the powers if the Kingdom of England down to, not only the two pre-union annexed countries of the Kingdom of England, but also to the only equally sovereign partner kingdom in the United Kingdom”.

      That, McBoxheid, is the actual, illegal, constitutional reality we are dealing with today.

      This was best, and most clearly, demonstrated in a paper commissioned by Westminster in which two claimed experts claimed this, “That the Treaty of Union Extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”. This is quite simply a lie and is not mentioned in the Treaty of Union.

      This claim should have set in motion a legal process via inter5national courts that the Treaty of Union was void, but it didn’t. Mainly because few people knew about the Westminster commissioned paper and the media made damned sure they didn’t.

      However, the claim was then made on national TV by no less an official person than the Secretary of State for against Scotland, David Mundell.

      Here he is on TV admitting it:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OIRUr4R7GQ

      … Christ almighty, every time someone mentions the union that is the United Kingdom, but doesn’t quote chapter and verse, then they are pulled up by the constitutional thought police.”

      First of all I believe Christ had nothing to do with it. Second if you do not want corrected for mistakes then do not make them. Third there are no, “Constitutional Though Police”, but there are a few Wingers, me included, who do correct those who promulgate unionist propaganda for the unionist cause.

      I accept that most often this may be done innocently as a result of a lifetime being subjected to unionist propaganda. However, for whatever reason, the obviously quite simple use of the wrong terms is counter productive. It seems like it may be harder to give up than for an addict to stop smoking or an alcoholic give up booze.

      … I was talking about the unionist labour party and the political reality and did not want to go into the ins and outs of the union of crowns, the union of parliament and all of the relevant treaties with all the dots crossed”

      Now you are exaggerating but, Hey! Whatever floats your boat. In any case you could have made your point more clearly simply by the use of the correct term for the correct entity in the first place.

      Is it any harder to call a kingdom a kingdom than to wrongly call it a country, (of course only Scotland within the United Kingdom is both a kingdom and a country), are there is the problem. Think on this – if everyone in Scotland when speaking or writing about Scotland in relation to the union were to make it clear that Scotland was a kingdom and thus an equal partner in the union it would soon be the norm to regard Scotland as a partner and not a region of England.

      If getting folks to discard their brainwashed thoughts and language, ” … puts people off posting and contributing in their way”, then perhaps they might, instead of taking umbrage, think a bit before propagating unionist propaganda.

      Don’t you get it even yet? A big part of how Westminster has managed to cow and overrule Scots and Scotland is totally down to the way they have fixed certain ideas in their minds.

      Not just by telling lies, not telling people the facts but how they think about the entire set up that is the United Kingdom.

      The quicker Scots start to think of Scotland as a fully equally sovereign partner kingdom in the United Kingdom and Westminster as The United Kingdom government and not the government of England the sooner Scotland will be free.

      You can complain all you want to and call me all the names you wish but I’ll tell you this – you will never upset me.

      Thing is I know I’m right and all you need to do is read through Wings on almost any topic that Rev Stu has posted and you will see, probably the most obvious wrong thinking. references made to the Westminster Parliament as if it were the actual parliament of England – get this right – there is no such parliament.

      England has no legal parliament and believe it or not the English are probably more aware of that than the Scots are. There is after all pressure groups calling for an independent parliament of England. Although Westminster acts as if it was the English parliament and sovereign over Scotland it is neither.

    152. orri says:

      One way to look at and S30 is that it takes implementing a Yes vote out of Westminster’s hands and into Holyrood’s. Insisting on one means that Holyrood doesn’t trust Westminster as far as they could throw them.

      Not agreeing to an S30 simply means there’s no guarantee from Westminster that they will honour a Yes vote by redrawing their jurisdictional boundaries to exclude Scotland and it’s territories.

    153. Patrick Roden says:

      @ Iain moir,

      Very interesting Iain, and makes a lot of sense.

    154. Allan Watson says:

      Listened to Mike Russells presentation of the referendum framework bill. Concise and absolutely guaranteed to wind up the the westminster sponsored parties in the Scottish parliament.

      I liked the way that Mike Russell wanted everyone to take part in the discussions on this bill and present their thoughts and any input that they have.

      Despite a referendum and an EU vote where the people of Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU the unionist parties do not want the people of Scotland to have any say in their future.

      According to them our future should be decided in westminster not Holyrood.

      Democracy according to them is something only westminster can dispense.

    155. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dan says: 29 May, 2019 at 12:34 pm:

      ” … Hmm, yet they don’t appear to have a problem with some politicians getting drunk on subsidised drink at the “big parliament” and stealing things.”

      Worse than that, Dan, “they don’t appear to have a problem with some politicians getting drunk on subsidised drink at the “big parliament” and stealing feeling, ‘things’.”

    156. Golfnut says:

      Just received an e-mail from Nicola ‘re the Referendum Bill. She refers to it as the Independent bill. No doubt now, we’re going for it. Anyone else received this yet? Are you able to post it on here.

    157. Frank Gillougley says:

      galamcennalath 3.11

      First Minister – Within this parliamentary term, I am determined that Scotland will have the opportunity to choose to be an independent European nation.

      Ther – see language? ‘An independent European nation’.

      I think that is the phrase that we’ll be hearing a lot more of in months to come. It’ll do for me.

    158. Dr Jim says:

      Well that’s me for the week going climbing for a couple of days and if I come back alive I might make the march on Saturday

      If ye don’t hear anything I’ll be a report on Scotland today

    159. Patrick Roden says:

      @Stravaiger,

      “Looks like a crowd finder might be needed for Alyn Smith. The Brexit party is threatening legal action over his money landerers comment.”

      To be honest, I hope the Brexit party win. It might teach the two faced git, to stop running his big mouth off.

      Never thought I’d ever see the day when I could honestly say that, but I’m so pissed off at some of the so called ‘big guns’ in the SNP, slagging off us ‘unclean cybernats’, I would happily see them being taken to the cleaners.

      I hope Nicola understands the anger we feel.

      I won’t be giving that two faced creep, a penny!

    160. Golfnut says:

      @ galamcennalath.

      Sorry should have checked the thread first.

    161. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Nana @ 14:46,

      That’s the stuff.

      You would think that after the drubbing the Tories just received in Scotland, that they would take stock and reconsider, but instead they are getting into such a panic now they doing the very opposite. Angloposturing by Tory leadership candidates about how “strongly” they rule over us may be the “bees knees” at getting themselves noticed in England and winning the premiership on the backs of a minuscule fraction of the population, but it will not go down well in Scotland.

      And maybe least well by those folk here who are still clinging to the remnants of a belief in what they were promised back in 2014. As each day passes, with each arrogant reinforcement of the Big Lies of 2014 – “equals”, “leaders” and all – independence comes a step nearer.

    162. Robert Peffers says:

      @Proud Cybernat says: 29 May, 2019 at 1:06 pm:

      ” … When the akchul IR2 Bill is passed by HR and goes to Lizzie for Royal Assent, I think that is when things will really kick-off.”

      Well, Proud Cybernat, things might, “kick off”, just a wee bit earlier than that. This bill is, in itself, a bill and will also require to have Royal Assent”. Now we all know Lizzie just signs what she is told to sign and if told not to sign it we have a constitutional crisis all on its very own.

      As already pointed out the Westminster Supreme Court has already acknowledged the Scottish Claim of Right, so cannot very well not recognise it now. Furthermore it has already gone to the international court so it looks like there will be no problem.

      Anyway, Westminster can only attempt to stop things at the Royal Assent stage.

    163. jfngw says:

      Sajid Javid a man with ancestors that freed themselves from British colonialism has stamped his foot and made it clear he will always keep Scotland in its colonialist state. In fact it’s not even colonialism it is pure vassalage where the will of Scotland is subordinate to the will of England.

    164. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Patrick Roden @ 15:43,

      Don’t be silly. He may not have excelled himself in that episode, but the internet is indeed a lairy place and not everyone is who they pretend to be. Everyone is entitled to the odd mistake, and his sterling work in the EU has earned him some slack.

      Splitterism will get us nowhere, not least the self-indulgent emotive kind, and resurrecting this issue again now to no useful purpose only serves our opponents.

      Besides, in this case he is perfectly correct. +In my totally uninformed opinion.+ (As one says these days.)

    165. Scott says:

      Sorry O/T but sick of these barstewards.

      Tory leadership race: Sajid Javid says he will put 20,000 more police officers on the beat if elected

      The said Javid to deny me a vote for my country is a hypocrite.
      The above statement regarding the police is why I say he is a hypocrite he could have been doing this as soon as he took over his new job and told May to bugger off but no.
      I am going to keep a note of all them who says we will not get our referendum and at the top will be the Mouth Davidson who will be egging them all on.

      Received an e-mail from Nicola ‘re the Referendum Bill

    166. Welsh Sion says:

      I know we have other more important things to discuss (e.g. the Referendum Bill), but anyone else hear that snippet that Portillo (now a train buff) is making a film about the history of Scottish nationalism for the BBC?

      What’s that all about?

    167. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Welsh Sion @ 16:00.

      Oh boy. Portillosplaining now? What next? =grin=

    168. Nana says:

      Nicola’s email

      Dear Nana,
      Earlier today we published the draft legislation that will pave the way for a new referendum on Scottish independence.

      The legislation will set the rules for any referendum held in Scotland – such as who gets to vote and how the campaigns will be regulated.

      Within this parliamentary term, I am determined that Scotland will have the opportunity to choose to be an independent European nation.

      Throughout the Brexit process, Scotland has been treated with contempt by Westminster. Our efforts to find compromise and protect the interests of the people of Scotland, have been ignored.

      Now, we face a choice between two very different futures. On one hand, being dragged out of Europe against our will and locked in to a hard Brexit with all the risks that will entail.

      On the other, Scotland choosing a different and better path. As an independent country, Scotland’s future will be in Scotland’s hands and we can play our full part in the international community.

      The SNP has a mandate for a referendum on Scottish independence

    169. jfngw says:

      Ruth Davidson is she in Hydra mode to either cover up her trouncing at the latest election or because she knows the numbers up for the union.

    170. Lenny Hartley says:

      Patrick Roden @ 3:43 agree entirely, hope he gets taken to the cleaners.

    171. Dorothy Devine says:

      Welsh Sion it’ll have something to do with trains I’ll be bound!

      Dr Jim careful on those mountains, don’t want to lose you.

      Isn’t it good to know that someone who probably couldn’t find Scotland without a chauffeur can tell Scots and all who make Scotland home that they cannot have an independence referendum ’cause he says so.

    172. jfngw says:

      @Welsh Sion

      Because it’s the BBC, Portillo is now one of their lovelies, he knows little about the subject, so is the obvious candidate. The BBC is know for employing ‘historians’, or people with the same level of history qualifications as I have, none.

      It will be presented as an unbiased view, from a rampant unionist who not so long ago was punting Ruth Davidson as a hero.

      If the rumour is true, but it is perfectly believable from the BBC.

    173. Tam fae somewhere says:

      If Boris can be dragged to court for the £350m a week for the NHS, could Broon et al be done for the vow?

    174. Petra says:

      @ Patrick Roden says …. To be honest, I hope the Brexit party win. It might teach the two faced git, to stop running his big mouth off. Never thought I’d ever see the day when I could honestly say that, but I’m so pissed off at some of the so called ‘big guns’ in the SNP, slagging off us ‘unclean cybernats’, I would happily see them being taken to the cleaners. I hope Nicola understands the anger we feel. I won’t be giving that two faced creep, a penny!”

      Who said that we were ”unclean cybernats?” Alyn Smith? It’s no wonder that the Independence movement takes one step forward and two steps back when we’ve got people doing the Unionist controlled MSM’s job for them on here.

      As to the anger that ”we” feel. Speak for yourself Patrick. The only people that I’m angry with are the people who have stolen Scotland’s past and plan to steal it’s future, such as the Farage’s of the Brexit party who have been using dark money to achieve their objective. One of their next aims by the way, if they get into power, is to shut down Holyrood. If Alyn Smith has stated that he has to be commended, imo.

    175. Republicofscotland says:

      Had a brief chat with Blair Jenkins, who thinks we’ll definitely have a second indyref next year. Mr Jenkins added that he’ll be involved one way or the other.

    176. Col.Blimp IV says:

      60%/40% with 381 votes cast and the clock ticking…

    177. geeo says:

      I missed the live statement re: referendum bill.

      Are the MSM deliberately not showing Ruth Davidson fulfilling her threat to lead her Tory MSP’s out of Holyrood ?

      I mean, Ruth Davidson would never say something and not do it, right ?

    178. Col.Blimp IV says:

      61%/39% 394 votes now

    179. Cubby says:

      Terry Callahan @ 1.47pm

      Yet another concern troll post from Callachan. Trying to take over from Colin Alexander are you Terry old boy.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      @Welsh Sion says:”. . . anyone else hear that snippet that Portillo (now a train buff) is making a film about the history of Scottish nationalism for the BBC?

      What’s that all about?

      It’s to be called “Flying Scotsman” 🙂

    181. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – right. That’s it up to 55% YES and 45% NO.

      Looks like the Evening Times backs multiple referendums.

      https://twitter.com/TheEveningTimes/status/1133620380365729792

    182. Legerwood says:

      Patrick Roden @ 3.43pm

      Alyn Smith did not make any such remarks.

      I suggest you read the article which you can find here

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/at-midnight-all-the-agents/

    183. Cubby says:

      A masterful performance from Mike Russell in Holyrood this pm.

      Worth noting in response to a labour MSP about poverty in Scotland he says:

      “……. the resources of the country to the good of the country, and we can’t do that unless we have control of those resources. It is a simple issue……………..all the resources and all the effort of the country is devoted to that, and that cannot be done within the current settlement.”

    184. Legerwood says:

      Welsh Sion says:
      29 May, 2019 at 4:00 pm
      I know we have other more important things to discuss (e.g. the Referendum Bill), but anyone else hear that snippet that Portillo (now a train buff) is making a film about the history of Scottish nationalism for the BBC?

      What’s that all about?””
      ………….

      Mr Portillo is Scottish on his mother’s side. Grandfather lived in Kircaldy where MP spent some of his holidays.

      Guess in the BBC’s mind that makes him supremely qualified to front such a programme.

    185. geeo says:

      Never mind Callachan, Cubby, he has had a weally bad day today, that nasty nicola never heeded ruthies warnings 🙂

    186. Cubby says:

      Welsh Sion@4.00pm

      I enjoy your posts but

      “What’s that all about?”

      Well that’s an obvious one – a PROPAGANDA programme.

    187. yesindyref2 says:

      Incidentally, this Bill was always described as the “Framework Bill”, covering the franchise and rules for the (any) referendum. Also as I pointed out before, taking into account consultations which presumably include comments about the Electoral Commission whose position is being limited.

      https://www.snp.org/it-is-time-to-look-to-scotlands-future-with-confidence-in-the-potential-of-our-country-and-all-those-who-live-here/

    188. Robert Peffers says:

      Well now! All those who have been stamping your feet. shaking your fists, and yelling, FMBAAADDDD! SGBBBBAAADDD! SNPBBBAAADDD!

      Get your hands in your pockets.
      Get your arses into gear!
      Get your printers switched on and your walking boots on!

      If I’m not mistaken the FM has just fired the starting pistol and you can stop your anti-indy rants and get going:-

      start here:-

      http://www.yes.scot

      repeat:- http://www.yes.scot

    189. Abulhaq says:

      [Following the publication of the bill, three of the candidates to replace May as Conservative leader: Rory Stewart, Sajid Javid and James Cleverly, said they would block any request from Sturgeon to hold another independence referendum]

      Stewart, I get..Javid and Cleverly I don’t but they are both, like Brutus, ‘honourable men’,

    190. galamcennalath says:

      Legerwood says:

      Portillo is Scottish on his mother’s side … in the BBC’s mind that makes him supremely qualified

      Indeed. The idea of what makes a person Scottish has changed and no doubt as with everything else the BBC haven’t been keeping up.

      Time was, having a Scottish granny, wearing something tartan, and drinking whisky made you a Scot.

      Now (and I hope many agree) being a Scot involves two things … 1) you contribute to society as best you can and pay due taxes here, and 2) you believe that Scotland is an equal among all the other countries of the world and deserves the same rights and respect.

      You might be Scots-born, or just have Scots ancestry, but that doesn’t necessarily make you a Scot. You may have been born elsewhere but by playing a full part in your adopted country, you can be a Scot.

      Portillo certainly doesn’t pass.

    191. yesindyref2 says:

      Okey-doke
      Very much worth looking at Peat Worrier’s twit-thing, and apparently he’s doing an article in The National tomorrow:

      https://twitter.com/PeatWorrier

      also this:

      https://twitter.com/AileenMcHarg/status/1133659811973926915

      the implications of this are – very interesting!

    192. Robert Louis says:

      Portillo is as ‘scottishy’ as Michael Gove. Typical BBC nonsense.

      What we need, what we really need from the BBC is a full account of the events of the signing of the treaty of union, but from the Scottish perspective. Free of ‘academics’ in oxford or London or Cambridge, and not the typical unionist rubbish about Scotland being in debt etc..

      Of course hell will freeze over before the BBC will ever make such a documentary.

    193. Petra says:

      WGD:_ ‘Destroying the things you love, and being destroyed by them.’

      ”It’s funny how Ruth Davidson is very quick to claim that the people of Scotland don’t want another independence referendum, yet she carefully avoids saying that the people of Scotland don’t want Brexit.”..

      …” The Tories themselves are destroying the UK. It’s their actions, their arrogance, their blind hatred, their inflexibility, their utter selfishness and unyielding insistence on putting narrow party interest first which will lead to Scottish independence. When they are reduced to telling Scotland that it will not be ‘allowed’ a vote on its own future, they have already destroyed 300 years of Scottish unionism. They can no longer pretend to the people of Scotland that Scotland is freely and willingly a part of the UK. They have revealed the ugly truth that Scotland is regarded as a possession.”…

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/05/29/destroying-the-things-you-love-and-being-destroyed-by-them/

    194. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry if anyone else has posted this already:

      https://www.parliament.scot/S5_Bills/Referendums%20(Scotland)%20Bill/SPBill46S052019.pdf

      Referendums (Scotland) Bill
      [AS INTRODUCED]

    195. Golfnut says:

      @ Yesindyref2.

      Talk about forward planning. I suspect this bill’s format is as much about post indyref as indyref itself. The SNP always stated that we would get to vote on the negotiations between Holyrood and Westminster, and they may also plan to hold an EU vote or at least the terms agreed for Scotland’s membership.

    196. HandandShrimp says:

      Abdulhaq

      Likewise, no surprise from Stewart. The other two might be ploughing a traditionalist furrow. However none of them are front runners. Gollum I expect will strike a similar pose to Stewart but Boris and his views on “the verminous scotch” anything could happen…which is probably why the mad Col is making nice. She doesn’t trust Boris.

      Raab will likely have us all shot.

    197. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah yes, this is the bit that has some Unionists frothing at the mouth:

      (7) This section does not apply in relation to a question or statement if the Electoral Commission have—
      (a) previously published a report setting out their views as to the intelligibility of the question or statement, or
      (b) recommended the wording of the question or statement.

      LOLlerz 🙂

      So the Question would be:

      “Should Scotland be an independent country?” YES / NO

      Because that’s what it was in 2014

    198. Robert Louis says:

      Petra at 522pm,

      Indeed, WGd is bang on the money. It is now abundantly clear, that with this refusal of referendum, that Scotland is an English colony, a vassal state.

      When a referendum on self determination is refused, the union ceases to be voluntary. It is imposed.

      Imagine if the EU said England isn’t ‘allowed’ to have another brexit vote.

    199. Cactus says:

      Aye second your 5:09 pm comment Robert Peffers

      Aye all agreed, let’s get busy everybuddy

      X is ON!

    200. yesindyref2 says:

      @Golfnut
      To be honest, the SG have gone even further than I dared hope. Way further. AND it’s infra vires according to the PO (and LA).

      Bastirts!

      Mmm, Keen will be keening. He won’t be smiling, how unusual!

    201. Robert Peffers says:

      @Tam fae somewhere says: 29 May, 2019 at 4:13 pm:

      ” … If Boris can be dragged to court for the £350m a week for the NHS, could Broon et al be done for the vow?”

      I w3asn’t going to post this as I’ve got enough numptie raging at me just now but Boris is in court under English law and Broon would be charged under Scots law and the two legal systems are different and independent.

      However, I’ve no idea what Scots law is on these matters.

    202. Robert Louis says:

      Rory (the tory) Stewart fell apart under very gentle questioning a couple of nights ago on CH4 news. He firstly stated that if PM, he would create a ‘citizen’s assembly’ to determine brexit path, and assured JS that this would absolutely determine what he, as PM, would do. John snow then reminded Stewart that he had ruled out a ‘no deal brexit’ ,but then posed the question, what if a no deal brexit is what your ‘citizen’s assembly’ recommends? Stewart had no answer, and looked as though he genuinely had not really thought it all through. It was actually cringe worthy watching it.

      He’s a political lightweight. Fluff. I mean could you imagine him standing up to the likes of Boris the clown, the ERG or Jacob rees-mogg?

    203. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 17:19,

      Thanks for those links. Aileen McHarg’s apparently authoritative comment happily confirms my upthread musings. Nifty, very nifty.

      No doubt due to that “rather lawyerly” FM, amongst others. =grin=

    204. yesindyref2 says:

      And THIS answers the PPERA thing I was “discussing” somewhere (here?) with reference to the Edinburgh Agreement (i.e. it being an “agreement” not a Westminster dictat):

      A referendums framework exists under Westminster legislation – in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

      https://news.gov.scot/news/referendums-bill

      I’m afraid I can not resist though I know I should do, really.

      GTF!

      in fact:

      GTFFFFYFers GIRFUY!

    205. Petra says:

      @ Robert Louis says … ”Petra – Indeed, WGd is bang on the money. It is now abundantly clear, that with this refusal of referendum, that Scotland is an English colony, a vassal state. When a referendum on self determination is refused, the union ceases to be voluntary. It is imposed. Imagine if the EU said England isn’t ‘allowed’ to have another brexit vote.”

      Spot on RL and what if the EU had just binned their A 50 and said to the UK forget it, we’re not letting you leave the EU because one of our political party leaders, that no one ever votes for in England, says so.

    206. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      Ah, but, she’s only a very lowly and ignorant solicitor.

      Waht would she know?

    207. Bill Hume says:

      Robert Peffers 05:09pm ….hope I got the name right..
      Fuck yes……let’s get started.
      Cannie wait……the starting gun has been fired and I’ve got ma’ spikes oan.

    208. Abulhaq says:

      @HandandShrimp 5:30
      They’ll all be in the shadow of Farage trying to outdo one another in the patriotism stakes.
      Nadhim Zahawi, of Iraqi Kurdish heritage has not thrown his hat in the Tory ring, yet.
      Would be fascinating if he did. How would he deal with the Scottish question? Could give him some useful pointers!
      Raab does karate. I believe Nicola has had secret ninja training. Would make a good manga.

    209. Golfnut says:

      @ Robert Louis & Petra.

      They are certainly trying very hard to make people believe that they own Scotland, but we know differently.
      It won’t stop the noise though.

    210. geeo says:

      Great to see how well todays news has been welcomed, but can i just add a cautionary note…

      *(Whispers)”Shhh…..the BBC/STV/SKY news channels all think we STILL need a S.30 or we are stuffed”(Whispers)*

      Whew…I don’t think anyone noticed me saying that 🙂

    211. yesindyref2 says:

      Read this bit:

      Conduct
      7 Chief Counting Officer
      . . .
      (b) that person is unable or unwilling to be appointed as the Chief Counting Officer
      . . .
      (in which case the Scottish Ministers must appoint such person as they consider appropriate)

      I think this and the rest covers the idea of any LA “boycott”, but could be wrong.

      https://www.parliament.scot/S5_Bills/Referendums%20(Scotland)%20Bill/SPBill46S052019.pdf

    212. Tam fae somewhere says:

      Robert Peffers @ 5:37 pm

      Doh!

      Thanks ??

    213. Robert Louis says:

      Hey Sajid Javid, and your Tory enablers in Scotland,

      it’s called The Treaty of Union, 1707, not The Treaty of Subservience, 1707.

    214. ronnie anderson says:

      Ian Brotherhood /Capella I wish you’s wouldn’t put these Klik Bait polls online . I ‘ve knocked back another one from the Scotsman on our Yes pages , they cant make enough money from hard copy print so they turn to Klik Bait revenues & people fall for it every time , they dont give a Fek whether is a Yes or No there counting the money Dont promote them .

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah here we go, confirmation of something I posted a few days or so back in reply to the usual “concern” crap:

      (page) 6 Referendums (Scotland) Bill
      (9) The council for the local government area for which a counting officer is appointed must provide, or ensure the provision of, such property, staff and services as may be required by the counting officer for the carrying out of the counting officer’s functions

      Again, so much for that nonsense “boycott”.

      If Davidson and Murdo or Leonard and Kelly want to boycott IR2, BE MY FUCKING GUEST. 4 votes less for “Oh NO”.

    216. Petra says:

      @ Robert Louis says at 5:37 pm … ”Rory (the tory) Stewart fell apart under very gentle questioning a couple of nights ago on CH4 news. He firstly stated that if PM, he would create a ‘citizen’s assembly’ to determine brexit path, and assured JS that this would absolutely determine what he, as PM, would do. John snow then reminded Stewart that he had ruled out a ‘no deal brexit’ ,but then posed the question, what if a no deal brexit is what your ‘citizen’s assembly’ recommends? Stewart had no answer, and looked as though he genuinely had not really thought it all through. It was actually cringe worthy watching it. He’s a political lightweight. Fluff. I mean could you imagine him standing up to the likes of Boris the clown, the ERG or Jacob rees-mogg?”

      I saw that programme too RL and to be honest I was totally gobsmacked. I’ve read on a number of occasions that Rory the Tory is deemed to be head and shoulders above most other Tory politicians, intelligence wise, along with Gove, but his idea of a Citizens Assembly and how he would deal with their findings was mind-blowingly naive. He either hadn’t thought it through or suffers from the Tories inherent sense of entitlement in conjunction with a dictatorial attitude.

      If you missed it you can hear the interview here and the issue of CA around 3.30 mins on.

      As an aside Rory the Tory disnae look too weel at all.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QiGDcL5dmE

    217. call me dave says:

      @yesindyref2

      I’ll have to get old Bercow to have a word in your shell like young man, so exercised about this referendum framework thing, calm down… relax…it’s happening! 🙂

      But it makes us all happy that your happy!

      Game on I think! 🙂

    218. Cubby says:

      If the Britnats don’t want to vote no in Indyref2 great. It will probably be the only decent thing they have done for Scotland.

    219. yesindyref2 says:

      @cmd
      I’m having my moments 🙂

    220. HandandShrimp says:

      Unsurprisingly BBC HYS has comments on the independence legislation and like moths to the flame the usual suspects spout the usual drivel…but oil, but Darien, but too wee, but Krankie…there is nothing new under the sun, as it says in the good book.

    221. t42 says:

      “This is the man who needs to wear a red scarf so that people will think he is a socialist.”

      It’s to hide his rid neck!

    222. ronnie anderson says:

      Walkers of Aberlour waking up to the Brexit , they’ll need tae recall their Unionjackery packaging No Sale lol.

    223. Cubby says:

      The Tories – you cannot say you speak for the people of Scotland you didn’t get over 50% of the vote in the EU election.

      The Tory leader in Scotland Truthless Davidson – speaking on behalf of the people of Scotland says there is no appetite for indyref2 having just got 12.5% of the very same EU vote on a clear manifesto of stopping a second indyref.

      The Tories are not just liars they are hypocrites.

    224. Colin Alexander says:

      Should any Scotland-wide referendums be considered advisory?

      I thought the people are sovereign in Scotland, so if they make a direct decision should ANY parliament, politician or govt be able to overrule that decision?

    225. Cubby says:

      As more and more of the Tory leadership wannabees decide to act the hard man re Scotland I may have to change the name of the leadership battle from the The Battle of the Bastards to the Battle of The Prison Governors. For make no mistake that is what they are announcing. Scotland is not in A Union it is in a PRISON and these people are the prison governors.

      Faux democracy in Scotland.

    226. McBoxheid says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      29 May, 2019 at 3:23 pm

      @McBoxheid says: 29 May, 2019 at 12:33 pm:

      … Did you even read my post?”

      Go on I’ll bite.

      You, Robert, clearly did. Otherwise I would have not received your lecture. That was obviously aimed at Geeo, whom I’ll apologise for flaming at later.

      ——-
      if you do not want corrected for mistakes then do not make them.
      —–
      What? are you my sensei now?
      You are preaching from your pulpit Robert. You don’t even realise you are doing it. By the way, when did I mention anything about the union of crowns, or that Scotland no longer existed? So why bring up?

      What Mundell says is irrelevant. The reality is, he’ll be getting his jotters soon, I would imagine, and not mentioned in my comment. I think a lot of potential posters are turned off by the rather boring lecturing by someone that sounds a bit like a stuck record.
      It’s not the first time I have posted here in favour of indyref, only for you to jump from your high horse all over my posts with almost exactly the same lecture. Do you copy and paste?
      ————–

      However, for whatever reason, the obviously quite simple use of the wrong terms is counter productive.
      ————–
      Counter productive to whom Robert? Not only do you lecture me but you also insult. Did you have to pass some test to get this post as political rectitude editor?

      —–
      Now you are exaggerating but, Hey! Whatever floats your boat. In any case you could have made your point more clearly simply by the use of the correct term for the correct entity in the first place.
      —–
      Am I, Robert? I don’t think I am. See, there you go again! What’s with the lecturing? And what makes you think you have a monopoly on the correct terminology to be used on this site?
      —–

      Is it any harder to call a kingdom a kingdom than to wrongly call it a country, (of course only Scotland within the United Kingdom is both a kingdom and a country), are there is the problem.

      —-
      Indeed Robert, it is both a country and the K word in the UK context. I don’t like using the term kingdom in an age where the royals have become a tv reality program. “Oh! the next royal sprog has posited all over nanny’s shoulder. Should we call the midwife?” In a democratic country there is no room for an unelected, very expensive and not very productive royalty. I avoid any subservience to them in my correspondence. I’m a republican.
      ——-

      Think on this – if everyone in Scotland when speaking or writing about Scotland in relation to the union were to make it clear that Scotland was a kingdom and thus an equal partner in the union it would soon be the norm to regard Scotland as a partner and not a region of England.
      —-
      What makes you think that by being a kingdom, a country would be automatically be on the same footing?
      European history is filled with monarchies bullying other monarchies into accepting the smaller end of the stick when forcing treaties on each other.
      —-

      If getting folks to discard their brainwashed thoughts and language, ” … puts people off posting and contributing in their way”, then perhaps they might, instead of taking umbrage, think a bit before propagating unionist propaganda.
      —-
      So you are the duty psycologist as well historical fact checker?

      Nowhere in my post, in any sense of the words, does “propagating unionist propaganda” fit with the slant of the text. Quite the opposite!

      —-
      Thing is I know I’m right and all you need to do is read through Wings on almost any topic that Rev Stu has posted and you will see, probably the most obvious wrong thinking. references made to the Westminster Parliament as if it were the actual parliament of England – get this right – there is no such parliament.
      —-
      Just when did I propagate this falsehood exactly? So why preach to the converted? I realised at my Highland school that what we were taught in history was all English and not exactly the truth. I dropped history as soon as I could, because I did not believe what I was being taught. My mother used to sing the old songs and teach me some of the actual Scottish history, probably not exactly correct, but close enough. I am a Highlander, Robert, brought up in a traditional household of Scottish culture and history.

    227. yesindyref2 says:

      @Colin Alexander
      I think the real question you should be asking yourself is:

      “Is Westminster screwed or is it fecked?”.

    228. McBoxheid says:

      geeo says:
      29 May, 2019 at 3:13 pm

      McBoxheid@12.33pm

      Did I even mention you ?

      It was a general point to another poster on an ongoing requirement to explain something.

      If you equated that to what you posted, thats your fucking problem pal.
      —–
      Sorry Geeo, you never actually mentioned me at all. Your post came soon after a Robert Peffers lecture, so I assumed you were having a go. I shouldn’t have flamed at you. I was wrong.

    229. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2.

      Message for you in ‘off-topic’.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/comment-page-74/#comment-2463291

    230. Cactus says:

      BREAKING! LIVE scenes from London of Labour’s Leonard

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n77eoOfRPE

      That’s a damn guid thrashing fur Labour

      Guffaw guffaw

    231. call me dave says:

      BBC shortbread interviews owner of Walkers shortbread whose concerned about Brexit which is a bad idea and lack of EU workers.

      Glenn Campbell all sympathetic doing the day job.

      Note to self: Must buy more Crawfords shortbread. 🙂

      Earlier at Holyrood, Referendum Framework tabled & full of wee surprises with too much power going to the SG MSPs say opposition.

      Ruthie steely-eyed, not amused, fighting furiously to her last breath for the Yoons. Aye 🙂

    232. Petra says:

      Anyone else get the impression that, other than Jacob Rees-Mogg, English politicians at Westminster don’t have a clue about Scottish history, Treaty of the Union, that the Scottish people are sovereign, that the United Kingdom consists of two Kingdoms only, that there is no written Constitution and so on? If not, maybe they should have to sit and pass an exam, on a (large) number of subjects, before they’re considered to be suitable applicants for the post of UK PM. That would be a job for you Robert (P). Tutor to the numbskulls.

      ……………………………

      Bertie Armstrong is due to sail off into the sunset in August of this year. Does anyone else find it strange that he’s leaving at this time? Or is it just a case of job done for the Establishment and he’s now clearing off before the fish offal hits the fan?

      http://www.sff.co.uk/chief-executive-to-stand-down-in-the-autumn/

    233. Inverclyder says:

      As others have said….

      The only man for the job, the only man with ideas, dynamic, has the balls and is whose politicald ay in the sun has finally come is of course James Kelly.

      I’d even join Labour to get a vote on the leadership just to vote for the genius that is James Kelly. I’d encourage everyone to do the same as it’d be the best laugh we’ve had for a long time.

    234. manandboy says:

      The final battle for Independence is about to begin. It is time to prepare.

      The Truth. There is no other. Defend yourself against the deluge of lies from the political, business and media classes. Protect your mind, lest you become just another casualty in the Propaganda Wars.

    235. Petra says:

      Here we go again.

      ”Sign up here” …. ”Please come and join us”, rabbits Dirty Money Davidson.

      She seems to be getting her knickers in a right twist. Not a great idea for a new mum to get herself into such a state. If she’s so sure that the Scots don’t want to live in an Independent country what’s to worry about? Calm doon Rooth.

      https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/1133726777652764672?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

    236. geeo says:

      McBoxheid says:6.59pm

      I can assure you, Roberts comments were not aimed at me, i am well versed in our constitutional history/legal reality.

      Partly thanks to Robert in fact.

    237. Petra says:

      Kezia Dugdale as bitter and thick as ever. Seems that some people, Unionists, never learn. Take note of people trying to advise the numpty via tweets.

      https://twitter.com/kezdugdale/status/864784391679213570

    238. robbo says:

      Bertie Armstrong knows what’s coming I expect .Where was it i read recently that 77/percent of fish goes to EU market.How in the hell is a no deal brexit going to help them? I’ve never quite got the NE fishermen mafia. Seems them as fishermen don’t eat enough omega 3 for their brain development. If the think Uk govrn will help them then they deserve everything the get-GREED is their motive. Gove the rat will sell them out come the next Cod Wars.

    239. Welsh Sion says:

      yesindyref2 @ 6.57 pm

      “Is Westminster screwed or is it fecked?”.

      ________

      If we don’t get indy this time, we’ll be both.

    240. Terry callachan says:

      To cubby and geeo ,

      Keep taking your medicine, hope you are feeling better soon.

      I’m off to the local SNP monthly meeting , should be fab with everyone in such high spirits.

    241. Sarah says:

      O/T Dumfries & Galloway Indy hub has a crowdfunder going. They want to buy a van, cover it with Yes posters, fill it with Yes info and the equipment to set up a stall wherever wanted.

      Their target is £9,500 and there is 4 days to go. They have £2588 on the crowdfunder and some from other sources – it is unclear whether they already have the £4000 that they need to buy the van. The rest of the appeal is to pay for the printing of Yes posters etc and to buy the stall equipment.

      I know there’s been plenty of fundraisers lately [!] but I thought this one was another worthy cause.

    242. Robert Peffers says:

      @McBoxheid says: 29 May, 2019 at 6:54 pm:

      ” … What? are you my sensei now?”

      Oh! Get real!

      Do you actually know the meaning of the words you use?

      Are you perhaps of the opinion that Wings is a form of martial art?

      Let’s get this right, shall we. This is an open forum and, if we are to carry on a meaningful conversation, debate or even an argument, it certainly helps if we can understand what each other mean.

      You have just used a term that means a teacher of martial arts. Wings is an open forum for debate or sometimes for argument but it isn’t the mats for martial arts.

      Now away and grow up and act like an adult. When adults make errors, and we all do, they say sorry, thanks for the correction and they move on.

      So just do it – move on.

    243. Patrick Roden says:

      Another own goal by Davidson, asking all Tory leadership contenders to rule out an independence referendum.

      Each arrogant announcement about how England will tell Scotland what it can or can’t get, should add another couple of thousand to Yes!

      Ruth just hasn’t been at it since she came back, no wonder she said she felt like not returning to politics.

    244. Hamish100 says:

      Bbc attacks Scotland and Wales. Englands social care is worse.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48438132

      Obviously we are not allowed to invest in our people without Westminsters permission.

      If only they had £375million bus to sell.

    245. Petra says:

      Sarah have you got a wee link for that crowdfunder? I like the idea of the van. Just what we need, buses and vans travelling all over Scotland. Orkney, Shetland etc.

    246. Terry callachan says:

      To mcboxheid….

      Hi , you are experiencing the idiotic behavior of fools who think they are superiors here on wings.
      You are not the first and won’t be the last.
      Don’t let them put you off
      Speak your mind , nicely , that’s what it’s for
      These fools scan people’s comments and pick out those they disagree with and then insult and behave rudely with their stupid high and mighty attitude and are quite often wrong or just posting their own opinion with no evidence or facts supplied to back them up

      Not the brightest

      Laugh at them
      That’s what I do
      Peffers is a classic , thinks rather highly of himself but is just an ordinary joe soap

    247. yesindyref2 says:

      @Sarah
      I’d recommend Vanmonster, it’s where I got mine.

    248. Ken500 says:

      None of the SNP reps mentioned ‘cybernats’. If people bother to read what they actually said. There were general comments made (at different times.) for people to be more polite on the internet. General comments. One mentioned getting abuse from both Yes/No supporters, about bring a member of M15 etc. It was a journalist McKay who cobbled it all together as an attack on ‘cybernats’. The journalist’s words. If people actually bother to read the actual comments.. They were quite different from the headlines.

    249. geeo says:

      So much for “The Nine” then..

      Scotsgov MUST ask PERMISSION to hold indyref2.

      And off it goes never to waste time with again.

    250. Terry callachan says:

      A great day for SNP

      I’m still a bit worried that brexit will be abandoned by Westminster and those who have joined us in voting SNP will move back to the unionist camp

      Today bercow said that brexit would not sail through unchallenged he reiterated that Westminster will have its say and the brexit bill may yet be revoked

      That worries me

      I have always thought that brexit would lead to Scottish independence

    251. Macart says:

      Heh! Seems Ruth Davidson and Sajid Javid have both received answers to their messages today. 😎

    252. Sarah says:

      @Petra crowdfunder.co.uk/Dumfries-Galloway-indy-hub-a-yes-hub-on-wheels-

    253. Ken500 says:

      @ Alyn Smith actually discussed YES identifying accounts that constantly attack the SNP. Nuff said.

    254. ronnie anderson says:

      Terry callachan That must hiv been a quick SNP meeting you attended at 8.34 lol

    255. Iain 2 says:

      I would also recommend van monster,good vans and good value.

    256. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Terry callachan at 8.34

      Where’s that then? SNP meetings that startt at 9PM?

    257. Sarah says:

      @yesindyref2 and Iain 2: thanks for the recommend of Vanmonster – I’d never heard of them.

    258. jfngw says:

      Are you listening Scotland, England’s representatives are not going to allow you to choose your own countries future. MP’s from England are going to keep you prisoner forever, or at least until they can milk all the resources. MP’s from England think they are our master, time to stop bowing down to these imperial masters.

    259. ronnie anderson says:

      Whoo Hoo

      Terry callachan says:
      29 May, 2019 at 8:34 pm
      To cubby and geeo ,

      Keep taking your medicine, hope you are feeling better soon.

      I’m off to the local SNP monthly meeting , should be fab with everyone in such high spirits.

      So where was the meeting .

    260. CameronB Brodie says:

      A wee OT for all populist and/or authoritarian nationalist out there, who appear to have forgotten Britain is an alleged democracy, with administrative law and a constitution. We even have a head of state who is notionally charged with ensuring adherence to the natural law justifactory principle of said constitution. It certainly appears that some British nationalist think the Treaties of Yoonyawn was a bill of sail and that England owns Scotland, while others appear to believe the constitution is optional documentation (see the fill-English Brexit).

      How populist authoritarian nationalism threatens constitutionalism or: Why constitutional resilience is a key issue of our time

      The problem with movements and parties spearheaded by “populist” leaders such as Putin, Erdo?an, Orbán, Kaczy?ski or Trump is not that they happen to embrace more nationally focused policies that metropolitan elites widely condemn as unjust, ineffective or otherwise misguided. Nor is the problem that they embrace a confrontational political style and uncouth rhetoric at odds with the mores of reflexively enlightened society in political capitals across liberal constitutional democracies.

      Neither of those features would constitute a constitutional threat justifying sustained reflections on constitutional resilience. The problem with electoral successes of populist authoritarian nationalists is that they pose a fundamental threat to liberal constitutional democracy…..

      https://verfassungsblog.de/how-populist-authoritarian-nationalism-threatens-constitutionalism-or-why-constitutional-resilience-is-a-key-issue-of-our-time/

      #permissionfromsajid

    261. Bobp says:

      Terry callaghan 8.34pm. Aye they are some pair. But I better shut up in case you and I are accused of being a double act lol.

    262. galamcennalath says:

      Right wing spivs lining up behind Boris all implying it’s OK to lie to voters about issues as important as the NHS and Brexit! All smeared with the same toilet brush.

      iScotland has to begin with much higher moral standards expected from politicians.

    263. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ken500 , Smith endorsed the article. He did not retweet it saying btw I dont agree with what this article says, meanwhile his boyfriend who claims to be an SNP Member attacks on twitter two Elected SNP Politicians and tweets support to Kezia Dugdale for winning the defamation case brought by the author of this blog. Fly with the Crows, Get shot with them.

    264. Alan of Neilston says:

      What about taking on Gordon Broon? Anyone for havind a go?

    265. Bobp says:

      Hamish 100.9.03pm seen that ,but overall view down here is that Englandshire subsidise that for the sweaties. Any thoughts PSB’s

    266. Ken500 says:

      No he did not

      Read what was actually said.

      The rest is irrelevant. What someone else says.

      Many partners disagree. Some are unionists. Some support Independence etc.

      People disagree about self identification. A storm in a teacup.

    267. Robert Louis says:

      Have to laugh at all those Tory no-hoper wannabe PM candidates trying to sound ‘tough’ to the folks of South East England. Telling Scotland that England “won’t allow” the universal right to self determination in Scotland.

      What a bunch of chumps.

    268. Bobp says:

      Jfngw 10.06pm. Sorry jfngw, the “up to oor knees brigade and the daily mail fraternity are not listening to us.

    269. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ken500 Snith retweeted the article , if he disagreed with what it said he would not have retweeted it. As for storm in a teacup on seld gender identification. I think
      I will take the Revs side on that he thinks otherwise.

    270. Bobp says:

      S30,permission from westminster, blah,blah,blah, did patrick pearse or mahatma ghandi ask these barstewards for a section 30? NO, time to stand up and assert our nationhood and tell westminster to politically f**k off.

    271. jfngw says:

      Now I understand why Ruth Davidson never had red lines but lines in the sand, washed away with every tide. Kind of reminds me of Jimmy Young’s Raymondo, ‘What’s the policy today, Ruth’.

    272. Dan says:

      @Alan of Neilston at 10:34 pm

      They haven’t woken El Gordo from his slumber again have they?
      I’ve spent the afternoon chainsawing and then setting up some carbs so my heads had enough noxious shitey fumes tae deal with without being exposed to more of Broon’s excrement.

      I’ve not got #PermissionFromSajid but I’ll take him on with some lyric tweaks to a Guns and Roses song I now call –

      Mr Broonstain

      Broon used tae get up around seven
      Be in Parliament by nine
      He didnae worry bout nothin, no
      ‘Cos worryin’s a waste of his time

      He’d be finished his fuckups around seven
      Be home fed and watered by nine
      Spend the rest o’ the day countin’ his monies
      Sippin’ a drink and feelin’ fine

      UK’s been dancin’ with Mr. Broonstain
      He’s been raidin’
      He wouldn’t leave those pension funds alone
      No, no ,no, he wouldn’t leave them alone

      He used tae tak a little but a little wouldn’t dae
      So the little got more and more
      He just kept tryin’ tae get a little richer
      Said a little richer than before

      He used tae tak a little but a little wouldn’t dae
      So the little got more and more
      He just kept tryin’ tae get a little shitter
      Said a little shitter than before

      UK’s been dancin’ with Mr. Broonstain
      He’s been sellin’
      He wouldn’t leave those gold reserves alone
      No, no ,no, he wouldn’t leave them alone

      Now he gets up around whenever
      He used tae get up on time
      But that old man he’s a real muthafucker
      Gonna kick him on down the line

      He used tae tak a little but a little wouldn’t dae
      So the little got more and more
      He just keeps tryin’ tae get a little richer
      Said a little richer than before

      He used tae tak a little but a little wouldn’t dae
      So the little got more and more
      He just keeps tryin’ tae get a little shitter
      Said a little shitter than before

      UK’s still dancin’ with Mr. Broonstain
      He’s shit talkin’’
      He won’t leave us alone
      No, no ,no, he won’t leave us alone

      Ohh leave us alone

      Indyref split Labour doon the middle n’ their vote share’s noo a piddle
      And it, it drove them outta their minds
      Many Scots see their past error in believin’ lies fae better th’gither
      So let’s all wise up and leave this union behind… Yowsa!

    273. Phronesis says:

      An individual criticising the state of Scotland’s public services should perhaps look closer to home at NHS England. A business model that builds up a deficit whilst excluding patients with complex conditions and those who need health care most,then charges the state to pay for that deficit (currently £21.6 million added to cuts of £10 million from local services) is being championed by those elected to protect a state asset. That doesn’t sound like improving public services,that sounds like privatisation of a public service after running it down, increasing social exclusion and widening the inequality gap- deliberately.

      ‘Who is excluded from this service;
      Women who are or may be pregnant,,
      Adults with a safeguarding need,
      People living with complex mental health conditions,
      People with complex physical, psychological and social needs,
      People living with dementia,
      Older people with conditions related to frailty,
      People requiring end of life care,
      Parents of children who are on the ‘Child at risk’ protection register,
      People with learning difficulties.
      People with drug dependence’

      http://www.hammersmithfulhamccg.nhs.uk/media/120062/PCCC-Item-6-Appendix-C-GP-at-Hand-Clinical-Review.pdf

      ‘In September 2017, however, David Wong, professor of health informatics, and Hamish Fraser, associate professor in eHealth, at the Leeds Institute of Health Sciences together with WiredUK found Babylon Health’s app the “least accurate” in a test of three symptom checker apps – Babylon’s AI, Ada and You.MD… Babylon has been censured by the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) for the contents of its adverts for the GP at Hand app…

      In the UK, the company offers a private service via its app; the service has a subscription charge plus extra costs on top, such as £25 for a remote GP consultation. Babylon’s primary target in the UK, however, is gaining access to NHS patients. The company has a contract with NHS England for its GP at Hand app that was launched as a service in London in 2015 and has since acquired a lot of patients (see below for details)… One facet of Babylon’s ‘strategy’ in the market is its resort to litigation in the face of criticism. In December 2017, HSJ reported that the company had failed to prevent the CQC publishing an inspection report of the company’s service’

      http://www.nhsforsale.info/private-providers/private-gp-companies/babylon-health.html

      https://www.hsj.co.uk/technology-and-innovation/major-trust-opens-talks-with-babylon-claiming-gps-unable-to-stem-demand-/7025154.article

    274. Bobp says:

      El gordo is more to be pitied as a senile yoon ars**icker

    275. Cubby says:

      Terry Callachan @9.13pm

      “…. or just posting their own opinion with no evidence or facts supplied to back them up.”

      Ha ha Callachan – you are a joker – no a clown. The guy who has been asked on many many occasions to provide details on where he gets his English population in Scotland and Wales figures from and provides Zilch.

      You just keep digging away Callachan. A lot on Wings have memories.

      Terry Callachan@9.20pm

      “I’m still a bit worried……”

      “That worries me”

      Aw poor old Terry is worried. Trying to take the record away from Colin Alexander for the greatest number of concern trolls – Callachan the great worrier.

      You have tried the ” I’ve just been to an SNP meeting” comment before Terry old boy. Yes some of us remember things on Wings. Did you tell them you are an anti English racist at your late night meeting Terry old boy. Does your branch accept bigots? So where is this SNP branch that accepts bigots like you?

    276. jfngw says:

      All the parties that have their headquarters in Scotland and are registered as Scottish support independence. All the parties in Holyrood with headquarters in England and registered in London oppose independence, speaks volumes really.

    277. Cubby says:

      Bobp@10.29pm

      No I do not think you are a pair. If you have a problem with my posts why don’t you man up and say so directly to me. As I have said on many occasions I am not a pair with Geeo so do me the courtesy of accepting this and retract that comment.

      If you want to encourage an anti English racist concern troll then that is up to you. Don’t expect me to follow suit.

    278. Patrick Roden says:

      The Daily Redcoat mentioned that Kezia and Neil Findlay haven’t spoken in 18 months.

      This shows up just how weak Ricky Lemoncurds leadership is, as any leader worth his salt would have taken them into a room and sorted the problems out for the good of the ‘whole team’.

    279. Bobp says:

      Anyroads, for the benefit of any Yoon uneducated lurkers, me and the wife are off to lloret on sat for2 weeks. And whether we decide to stay in Spain semi permanently or decide to live in southern Ireland, or even go back home to Scotland . We will still receive our DWP pensions which we have paid into all our lifes, failure to do this by engerland,would see them reduced to pariah state status, with no country willing to trade or deal with them.

    280. Bobp says:

      Cubby 11.34pm . Thanks for the explanation. Apologies for you and geeo being a pair.

    281. Cubby says:

      Bobp@11.47pm

      Is your wife called Terri by any chance.

    282. Bobp says:

      Any wings supporters in lloret next 2 weeks ,I’ll be be the one wearing my vile cybernat t.shirt alternating with my unrepentant fenian barsteward tshirt.

    283. Cubby says:

      Bobp

      Apology accepted. Have a good holiday.

    284. Petra says:

      Keith Brown sorted Carlaw out on the Scotland Tonight programme. Came across as being genuine in comparison to smug, lying Carlaw. Highlighted too how Tory wannabe leaders won’t “allow” the Scots to hold another referendum. That’ll get the back up of most Scots and you can bet your bottom dollar, as it’s been pointed out now, that they’ll change their usage of language from now on. Pamela Nash, SiU, was on too and is a strange choice of character to be fronting such a group, imo, a bit of a numpty and I’d reckon that the vast majority of posters on here could demolish her within five minutes in debate.

      Anyway it looks as though the game’s on and the opposition, with “big money” supporting them, are already sharpening their knives. Be prepared for being bombarded by any number and types of dirty tricks from now on. Much more than normal that is. More subtle and covert. Time now to consider joining the SNP and / or donating to help them combat groups like SiU.

      And by the way Carlaw said that Nicola Sturgeon had stated that IndyRef1 was a once in a generation event. Does anyone know if this is correct or not?

    285. Bobp says:

      Cubby, I’ll be having a pint next week and laughing at c***s like you.

    286. Bobp says:

      Sorry cubby. Apologies, for you called me. And vice versa. Thought you having a go at me

    287. Petra says:

      Trump and the State visit. Hosted by T May and Queenie. Birds of a feather, a corrupt bunch of vultures, flock together as they say.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/mueller-statement-today-trump-impeachment-press-conference-resignation-a8935846.html

    288. geeo says:

      “Scotland cannot afford independence”

      A classic Unionist mantra.

      But just how wrong is it ?

      I tried to answer that one earlier, despite there being not so much about spending on reserved issue ‘on Scotlands behalf.

      The following may just be a cack handed stab at some numbers, so feel free to correct any or all of it.
      ………

      Jane Gordon says: “Scotland gets more money than Wales or N.Ireland”
      ….,.

      Actually, Jane, I beg to differ.

      Scottish annual revenues = £200billion. (As stated in BBC interview recently (forget who)

      Scottish Budget to run ALL PUBLIC SERVICES (block grant) = £30billion.

      Reasonable estimated budget for WM running RESERVED services on Scotlands behalf = £35bn ?

      So IN TOTAL, EVERYTHING in Scotland, from local authorities, to pensions, to defence, to social security (part reserved part funded ALREADY via block grant)and all and everything in between , cost a grand total of around £65billion/Year.

      But fuck it, for the sake of argument, lets throw another £35billion and say it cost £100billion/year to run EVERYTHING in Scotland.

      If Scotland were independent, we would STILL HAVE £100BILLION/YEAR in the bank with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING PAID IN FULL.

      £100, 000, 000, 000 to play with EVERY YEAR.

      That is equivalent of EIGHT AND A HALF TIMES the current Scottish NHS BUDGET in SPARE CHANGE.

      Or if you prefer, nearly SEVENTY Queensferry Crossings EVERY YEAR.

      We could easily have the HIGHEST pension in the OECD rather than the LOWEST !

      So, NO, Jane Gordon, Scotland DOES NOT get more money than anyone, we get a fraction of what is ALREADY OURS.

      What people should be asking WM unionist parties is this.

      When Scotland becomes independent, and ALL £200Billion of our revenues are returned to the Scottish treasury, where will WM find that £100/130billion each YEAR to fund such a huge increase of their DEFICIT ?

      After the crash, the deficit peaked at £103bn .

      After 9 years of crushing austerity , bringing public services to their knees, the deficit is STILL around £36bn this year.

      Scottish independence jumps that deficit shortfall to OVER £150Bn (being generous again) and we have not even factored in the best brexit forecast of an 8% drop in uk output.

      For contrast, the 2008 crash cost around 2.8% shrinkage in the uk economy.

      Brexit alone will be nearly 3 times WORSE than the 2008 crash WITHOUT WM losing that Scottish revenue.

      Do you reckon a post indy Scotland could manage to, as you said earlier, “look after the people who live in Scotland NOW” under THOSE circumstances ?

      If that is what you REALLY want them to do, then simply VOTE YES to independence.

      Or vote No, but ner complain about ANYTHING in Scotland’s finances ever again.

    289. Cubby says:

      Bobp

      You are great at sending out mixed messages.

      Enjoy your pint next week.

    290. Bobp says:

      Petra. Always said robert mueller coming up to retirement should watch his back. Yoons in Scotland. WHO’S robert muller, does he dae the yoghurts.

    291. Bobp says:

      Cheers cubby. I’ll hae a couple fur you.

    292. Petra says:

      Good ending to a great day. Cubby and Bob, ding, dong … hate you / love you … are pals again, lol.

      Enjoy your holiday Bob. Lucky beggar. Next we’ll be hearing is that Cubby is visiting you in Spain.

    293. Cubby says:

      I thought I would tune in to the BBC Scotland channel news at nine as Sturgeon was to be interviewed. Never watched the programme before. Won’t be rushing back. Reporting Scotland lite is how I would describe it. Same old same old Reporting Scotland guff. The guy on the show Martin comes across like Glenn Campbell’s wee brother.

      The other guy wee Davey Lockhart says no indyref2 is going to happen – our masters in London won’t let it happen. Westminster is ” stubborn” says wee Davey. Not how I would describe it. – but of course wee Davey has to follow the Britnat line or his fledging career will end PDQ.

      Just another Britnat show from the BBC in Propaganda Quay.

    294. Heart of Galloway says:

      geeo@9.17
      As I said up-thread, our *ahem* national broadcaster will soon have to address an inconvenient truth.
      Namely, that the entire rationale of the Referendums Bill is to dispense with seeking Westminster’s ‘permission’ to hold any referendum, IndyRef2 in particular.
      Quietly, purposefully, the Scottish Government has set a time-bomb ticking with this Bill which is inextricably bound up with Scotland’s sovereign right to choose.
      Holyrood will pass it, leaving the imperial power with a deadly choice of whether or not to oppose the Scottish Claim of Right – to which it has already consented.
      It cannot win, meaning no Section 30 agreement will be required – and IndyRef2 will come with a Made in Scotland sticker.
      All this, of course, has yet to be reported – are you listening BBC Scotchland? – and in the absence of untainted or any news at all voters have that nasty habit of finding things out for themselves.
      So stock up on the popcorn, because it will be pure box office to see how long Shortbread TV can hold the ‘Westminster must grant permission’ line before its unspoken status as a propaganda unit for the British state is confirmed once and for all.
      I could of course be wrong – any journalist with a shred of professional integrity and a half-functioning brain should be able to grasp the import of what the Scottish Government has started.
      Or perhaps not.
      Either way, one thing’s for sure – truth will out.
      And when the people discover that the truth has been deliberately hidden and traduced, that all along they have had both the right and the power to decide their country’s future, it will be a wonderful sight to behold.
      Speaking of our imperial masters, I wonder what Europe makes of PM contender Sajid Javid’s boast that he would never ‘allow’ a second Scottish independence referendum?
      What are we? Slaves? Vassals? The arrogance is beyond breathtaking.
      Keep it up BBC Scotland and the rest and you will become a bigger laughing stock than you are already – and that takes some doing.

    295. Cubby says:

      BBC Scotland channel News at Nine

      I forgot to mention Lynsey Bewes another new political reporter at Propaganda Quay prepares a report and comes out with the stunning revelation that “Nichola Sturgeon voted for independence in 2014.”

      LOL – these Britnats the terrible stories they make up – the leader of the SNP actually voted for independence in the 2014 referendum. Who would have thought it.

      Stunning political analysis once again from Propaganda Quay.

      PS just how many political reporters do they employ at Propaganda Quay to produce such rubbish.

    296. Cubby says:

      Geeo@12.25am

      Who., where when is Jane Gordon saying this.

      I believe the £200b quote came from one of the BBCs fact checker journalists during a live interview.

      I don’t think we will really ever know the truth of Scotlands total revenues until full independence is established. One fact I am happy to say is that it will most definitely be way higher than any figure Westminster publishes eg GERS.

    297. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Someone told me the other day that Nicola Sturgeon was a closet heterosexual. I told them to fuck off.

    298. McBoxheid says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      29 May, 2019 at 8:54 pm

      @McBoxheid says: 29 May, 2019 at 6:54 pm:

      ” … What? are you my sensei now?”

      Oh! Get real!

      Do you actually know the meaning of the words you use?

      Are you perhaps of the opinion that Wings is a form of martial art?

      Let’s get this right, shall we. This is an open forum and, if we are to carry on a meaningful conversation, debate or even an argument, it certainly helps if we can understand what each other mean.

      You have just used a term that means a teacher of martial arts. Wings is an open forum for debate or sometimes for argument but it isn’t the mats for martial arts.

      Now away and grow up and act like an adult. When adults make errors, and we all do, they say sorry, thanks for the correction and they move on.

      So just do it – move on
      ——-
      Sensei
      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      Sensei (can be pronounced “Sensai” as well), Sinsang, Sonsaeng, Seonsaeng or Xiansheng (??), is an honorific term shared in Chinese and Japanese honorifics that is translated as “person born before another” or “one who comes before”.[1] In general usage, it is used, with proper form, after a person’s name and means “teacher”;[2] the word is also used as a title to refer to or address other professionals or persons of authority, such as clergy, accountants, lawyers, physicians and politicians [3] or to show respect to someone who has achieved a certain level of mastery in an art form or some other skill, e.g., accomplished novelists, musicians, artists and martial artists.

      There you go, you don’t know it all, not by a long way. You should open your very closed mind.

      I am a modern European Scot who looks at the world differently to you.
      The trouble with you Robert, you are stuck in the past, in a world that is full of king and queens, who blind your eyes and steal your dreams. (Apologies to Ronnie James Dio, Toni Iommi, Geezer Butler and Bill Ward)

      You could always just stop trying to lecture me if I don’t use a word that you prefer, especially when you don’t know what you are talking about.

    299. McBoxheid says:

      geeo says:
      29 May, 2019 at 8:27 pm

      McBoxheid says:6.59pm

      I can assure you, Roberts comments were not aimed at me, i am well versed in our constitutional history/legal reality.

      Partly thanks to Robert in fact.
      ———
      Eh? What’s that got to do with me saying sorry to you for flaming? I don’t doubt and have never doubted your knowledge of our constitutional history, there is no need to assure me of anything!

    300. Sinky says:

      Petraeus@12.02. Re Pamela Nash and Scotland Tonight. she is on these programmes as the surrogate Labour Unionist but her Party affiliation is never mentioned.

      I wonder Why? Every Ceo of Scotland in Union has been a Labour politician so that this Tory front bankrolled from London can claim to be all Party but has only token non Tory membership.

      Why is Sui on so much when Business for Scotland or Wings are never on news or political programmes?

    301. Ken500 says:

      Scotland pays it’s own (UK) Gov pensions from taxes raised in Scotland £6Billion.

      Scotland pays it’s own (UK) Gov benefits and pensions. It was £16Billion but must be lower now as unemployment is so low,

      Scotland raises £60Billion in tax revenues. More pro rata than the rest of the UK. UK total £628Billion. Take £60Billion away. £568 Divide by 11 = £55.8Billion. Scotland 1/12 population.

      Scotland loses £3Billion tax evasion. £4Billion a year in Oil tax revenues. Tory high taxes when prices had fallen stopped production & exploration. 2010 to 2019. Taxed at 40% since Jan 2016. Scotland pays £1Billion too much for Defence. Trident etc. Scotlabd has to pay debt repayments on loans not borrowed or spent in Scotland £3Billion. Scotland cannot borrow £5Billion? in the economy for growth. Scotland VAT receipts are under estimated £1.5Billion. Total average £20Billion.

      Scotland would be on par with Norway. £60Billion + £20Billion = £80Billion.

      Scotland has to pay for illegal wars, tax evasion and financial fraud. Fishing, farming, Oil & Gas sector all mismanaged by Westminster unionists. Discarding and throwing back dead fish for years. Taking £Millions in CAP payments intended for poorer Scottish farmers. Oil industry totally mismanaged causing unnecessary deaths. UK Health & Safety Laws not enforced by Westminster imbeciles. No Inquiry. Denied by Robert Goodwill MP. Despite being recommended by UK Gov Transport Committee. Chair Louise Ellman.

      CCS projected reneged upon by Westminster unionists. Scotland now losing out on CCS projects while EU countries forge ahead. Rotterdam etc. Decommissioning work has to go overseas because there is no smelters in the UK. Projects are coming off in Dundee. Due to start soon.

      The Tories do not have a clue. The naive Westminster PM hopefuls. Utterly useless. The Brexit shambles. What a mess. Sajid Javid the failed banker and the rest of the clowns.

      Iraq War, Lockerbie and Dunblane kept secret for 100 years,

    302. Ken500 says:

      Why don’t the Orange Lodge just get lost. The blight on the streets. Go and march in a field somewhere instead of ruining the Scottish economy with sectarianism.

      An unequal, bigoted, racist, misogynist exclusive organisation. Preying on the vulnerable.

    303. Petra says:

      Well that explains why Pamela Nash, Labour, is used as a front for, in the main, rich English Tories Sinky. Trying to con the ordinary Joe Soap, as usual. Love my new name by the way. Sounds very upmarket, lol.

    304. Petra says:

      The latest from Professor John Robertson:-

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com

    305. Mac says:

      For years many on here have referred to the obvious imbalance in the UK, particularly with regards to London. We know that London and the South gets looked after in preference to the North.

      It’s slowly being recognised and admitted in England.

      The epitome of this is Boris’s famous ‘pound in Croydon, pound in Glasgow statement’

      This is an interesting article, one from the Economic migration in Scotland and water shortages in the South.

      https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/30/half-of-job-growth-to-be-limited-to-london-inequality-inquiry-finds

    306. RM says:

      We have to get our own Scottish media cover, it’s going to be hard to get round the BBC propaganda machine, how many small countries don’t have their own media and if we do get some kind of coverage it has to be truthfully honest, any politician who can’t answer a question with a straight answer or tells a lie should be cut off immediately, we need genuine people to run our country preferably people who’ve had a working life, blue and white collar workers and slowly cut out career politicians.

    307. Breeks says:

      Petra says:
      30 May, 2019 at 6:46 am
      The latest from Professor John Robertson:-

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com

      These “pointers” and performance tables for Hospitals being abstract ways assess the success of healthcare is beginning to sound a lot like GERS figures which are abstract and arbitrary indicators of revenue which can be manipulated to say whatever somebody wants it to say.

      “They” are using their rules and protocols to denigrate us. And “We” seem to think we can win playing by their rules. Heads up. We won’t. All they will do is change the rules if we come close to winning.

      Look at scandal of Scotland’s Continuity Bill, retrospectively spiked by the cynical rotten Establishment rewriting the rules, and yet Scotland plays on stoically as if it was just a harsh call by the referee. Ach well, better luck next time eh?

      The Union is rigged. Top to bottom. Every moment of every day. Their rules, their sophistry, their double standards will NEVER let Scotland be free. It’s RIGGED to stop us. Our TV is rigged by propaganda. Our Sports are rigged by underinvestment and piss poor sponsorship, not to mention the dung heap of sectarianism which the Establishment likes to keep so fresh.

      We need to set and enforce our own rules, and we have our Constitutional Dreadnought capable of doing it still held in dry dock.

    308. Sinky says:

      Petra @6.42

      Predictive text obviously knew your proper classical status. Lol

    309. Heart of Galloway says:

      Nice to see Wings recalibrate itself for the better of late. It is as if a beacon has been lit on a faraway hill a call to arms for great battle ahead.
      Make no mistake: the fiery cross has been lit and from this point there is no going back to dull security of inaction.
      Yes, our adversary is mighty and has the rich and powerful on its side, together with its siege weapons in the media.
      But we are many and we too have allies, thousands of them on here and elsewhere, in corner shops and cafes, in pubs and workplaces, each seeking through force of argument to win hearts and minds.
      And we are winning, despite all the vicious, lying UKOK media can throw at us.
      Now that the starting gun has been fired with the launch of the Referendums Bill (see my post above) it behoves every one of us to get out there and fight to secure our country’s future as a successful independent member of the European Union.
      In order to win against a powerful and dangerous foe, morale and momentum will be critical.
      History – not least our own – has many uplifting examples of the forces of the oppressed prevailing against seemingly insuperable odds because of an an unshakeable belief that they would win.
      Moaning about the British establishment’s power is counter-productive and serves no useful purpose.
      Instead, take heart from our strength in numbers and campaign like never before.

    310. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 30 May, 2019 at 12:02 am:

      … by the way Carlaw said that Nicola Sturgeon had stated that IndyRef1 was a once in a generation event. Does anyone know if this is correct or not?”

      It was never SNP or SG policy, Petra.

      The whole daft story stems from an Alex Salmond throwaway comment during a speech. Far as I remember it he said, “In my opinion this is a once in a generation opportunity”, or words to that effect.

      Anyway, all such claims aimed at preventing votes on any kind of political matter are idiotic and result from fear and desperation by those who would prevent them.

      Think about it for a moment – if any political vote were the last word on any subject we would still have the Whigs as the government at Westminster.

      There wouldn’t be a United Kingdom because there wouldn’t have been a vote on that and the maximum sentence available in courts would still be to be hanged, drawn and quartered then the head cut off and displayed on a prominent place as a warning to others.

      There wouldn’t be a Labour Party as the same old parties would be the only ones allowed. Laughably there wouldn’t even be elected parliaments as the royals would still be in charge under Divine Right of Kings.

      The whole concept of any political decision being sacrosanct is like something out of, “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland”.

      Only people edging upon idiocy would attempt to use such claims in reasoned debate and any sane person can demolish their argument in seconds and make them look foolish.

    311. Marie Clark says:

      @ Proud Cybernat, exactly, very nicely played ScotGov.

      Good find PC, thanks for the link, kinda made my day now after reading that.

    312. admiral says:

      “The whole daft story stems from an Alex Salmond throwaway comment during a speech. Far as I remember it he said, “In my opinion this is a once in a generation opportunity”, or words to that effect.”

      he also clearly stated it was his “personal opinion”, ISTR.

    313. jfngw says:

      Ruth Davidson demanding that the Scotland’s choice is respected in one referendum, Ruth Davidson demanding that Scotland’s choice is ignored in a different referendum. She is the voice of English Nationalism in Holyrood, as she demands Scotland’s democratic choice is overruled by MP’s from England.

      After Brexit they may even keep Holyrood but without elections and the FM will be a WM appointee, MSP’s replaced with a selected band of MP’s (from anywhere if there are not enough Scottish ones).

    314. Nana says:

      Just a few links today due to a computer glitch. I know a workman should never blame his tools but in this instance….it wasnae my fault 🙂

      https://www.snp.org/independence-referendum-bill-what-you-need-to-know/

      https://www.gov.scot/news/investing-in-manufacturing/

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/05/28/scotsman-herald-and-national-contradicted-as-evidence-shows-scottish-ambulance-service-in-excellent-condition/

      A thought about the Referendums Bill. Section 33 of the Scotland Act allows UK law officers to fast track a legislative competence challenge to primary legislation straight to the Supreme Court. There is no parallel provision for executive decisions…
      https://twitter.com/PeatWorrier/status/1133745203062431746

    315. Frank Gillougley says:

      I caught sight of a Murdo Fraser! tweet. please Look it up. as i cant copy clip.

      Official Report, ?@ScotParl?, 21/08/2104.(sic) ‘Once-in-a-lifetime’

      Nicola Sturgeon was winding up a debate and paying respects to Sam Galbraith when she used the ‘once in a lifetime’ as an adjective – obviously more of a marker of the momentous nature of the referendum as opposed to a legally binding statement.

      It’s all bollocks anyway that argument as we all know.

    316. Frank Gillougley says:

      sorry should have said Robert Peffers 9.06 there in relation to the above post

    317. Ken500 says:

      Car industry going down the tubes. Production down.

    318. jfngw says:

      As the vast majority of voters in England would happily eject Scotland to achieved their beloved Brexit it seems strange that the potential Tory leaders all want to ignore the voters decision.

      This would make you think they want to hold onto Scotland for something more than public opinion. But it does reveal that the ‘will of the people’ only stretches so far, those with fingers in Scotland’s pie want to keep gorging themselves.

    319. Dan says:

      @Robert Peffers & Petra re. “Once in a generation”.

      Are they still whinging on about that? How utterly pathetic if they have to resort to that when there are numerous important aspects they have reneged on or mislead folk with.
      Cough.. A certain VOW.
      Cough.. EU citizenship…
      https://twitter.com/UK_Together/status/506899714923843584

      Folk that use the “once in a generation” trope really don’t have much political acumen if they believe that it trumps numerous big blatant lies their own side made during the Indy1 campaign.
      Losing our EU citizenship contrary to our democratically expressed will, and the protection and opportunities that citizenship offers us against an unfettered UK Tory government is extremely significant for a huge amount of people and businesses.

    320. Fireproofjim says:

      Robert Peffers @9.06
      Nicely put. Off course Alex Salmond was only expressing a personal opinion when he said “once in a lifetime.”
      It was not my opinion and no one is bound by it. As circumstances change people have the right to reflect these changes in their reactions. No one can be bound by past rules for ever.

    321. Nana says:

      Tried posting a few more, no show.

      Check back later to see if they do appear, yesterday’s missing links did not. No idea why as I got ‘duplicate message’ so I’m giving up.

    322. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says: 30 May, 2019 at 1:27 am:

      ” … Stunning political analysis once again from Propaganda Quay”.

      Let’s face it the entire unionist mantra is so easy to demolish it is strange that they have got away with it for so long. I can only put it down to the suppression of Scottish history – and that includes things from as recent history as yesterday.

      Here’s a wee list:-

      Declaration of Arbroath internationally established Scotland as an independent kingdom in which the people are legally sovereign and the monarchy can legally be thrown out and replaced if they do not behave. This is the basis of Scots constitutional law.

      Union of the Crowns was only a personal union for the monarch and the Kingdoms remained legally independent.

      The Darien Expedition was a Westminster instigated plan to bankrupt the Scottish parliamentarians who were also Scottish landowners. Scotland was not bankrupt the landowner/parliamentarians were and so was the Kingdom of Scotland.

      The Treaty of Union was forced upon the Scottish parliamentarians/landowners by Westminster and against the will of the sovereign people of Scotland.

      The Treaty of Union was signed in 1707 but Westminster Government troops were still slaughtering Scots at Culloden in 1745 nearly 40 years after the Treaty of union and all things Scottish like music, highland dress and our national languages were banned by Westminster.

      The Treaty of Union unequivocally states that the United Kingdom is a two Kingdom union of equally sovereign kingdoms – it is a kingdom – not a country.

      The Treaty of Union unequivocally states that the two kingdoms will always have their own independent legal systems, their own independent church/religious and education systems. They also have independent NHS services.

      The Treaty of Union unequivocally states that the Pound Sterling is the currency of both kingdoms and Scots banks the legal right to print their own distinctive bank notes.

      The Treaty of Union unequivocally states that the people of Scotland are forever legally sovereign.

      On 1 May 1707 Westminster became the union parliament – that the Kingdom of England parliament went into permanent recession and the Scottish Parliament was prorogued.

      On 1 May the Treaty of Union was broken by the Kingdom of England as it continued as if it were still the old, legally in recession, parliament of England and has continued as such until the present day.

      Every one of those statements is true and well documented. Scotland has a rock solid case to reclaim her independence on at least two scores – as a legally sovereign people the people can end the union at their sovereign will.

      There is well documented evidence that the Treaty of Union was illegally forced. That the Treaty of Union has been broken since day one and that simple by Westminster even attempting to prevent the legally sovereign people from doing anything as a majority or by their delegated and chosen political government then Westminster is in breach of the Treaty of Union.

      Anyone see any flaws in those facts?

    323. Famous15 says:

      Once in a every lifetime a dream comes true!

      Once in a lifetime OPPORTUNITY is a sales pitch to focus on the moment and cannot sensibly be viewed as the eleventh commandment. Those who do are sophists.

    324. manandboy says:

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48435198#comment_134981630

      The BBC and Sarah Smith in full on hostile colonial mode.

      The comments section to this article continues to feel contrived and not like any other comments elsewhere in the media. And, the most heavily supported comments are strictly Unionist, which does not reflect either Scotland-wide polling or voting. The BBC are working very hard on behalf of the Westminster Establishment to keep their Scottish Cash Cow.

    325. galamcennalath says:

      manandboy says:

      The comments section to this article continues to feel contrived and not like any other comments elsewhere in the media. And, the most heavily supported comments are strictly Unionist

      Indeed. Given that the BBC primary mission is to protect their Union and promote Unionism, it seem highly probable that they manipulate, or even simply fabricate, comments to match the agenda. Consider the way they carry on with QT!

      Any pretence to being balanced or impartial has long since been abandoned.

      They know this is the end game in the battle for the existence of both the UK and the BBC. Unfortunately we haven’t quite reached the stage where everyone in Scotland understands the contest taking place around them and sees everything for what it is.

    326. Legerwood says:

      Nana says:
      30 May, 2019 at 9:24 am

      https://www.dw.com/en/german-pensioner-quits-big-tour-of-scotland-after-police-harassment/a-48920135

      An unfortunate title to that article. It is only when you read the article that you find that the police harassment took place in England so he went home without even reaching Scotland.

      Maybe just as well since he was planning to do the NC 500 – in a vintage tractor and trailer. Imagine the queues that would cause.

    327. Breastplate says:

      The 2014 independence referendum is a once in a generation or once in a lifetime event.
      That is a fact.
      It will cease to be a fact when another one comes along.
      An observation is not a promise or a prediction.

    328. Republicofscotland says:

      O/T.

      Assange seriously ill in prison hospital, his lawyer added he’s too ill to appear in court today via video link.

    329. Nana says:

      Four more links failed to post after using a different computer.

      indycar latest (find it on youtube)

      Car manufacturing on the skids (see google news)

    330. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I was going to post an insightful piece on this thread, but, I regret to inform my fellow Wingers: Sajid Javid refused permission.

    331. Robert Peffers says:

      @McBoxheid says: 29 May, 2019 at 12:15 pm:

      ” … if the other 2 states N.I. and Wales, voted with a majority for separation, present day political precedence would become far more relevant than a treaty from way back when they were occupied.”

      Oh! For Heaven’s sake! Why Oh Why! Must I keep correcting these daft claims over and over again?

      Sigh! Here we go again.

      Let’s begin with, “The Treaty of Union”, this is a live international treaty and if it were not there would be no United Kingdom. It is not just an agreement to unite the two, equally sovereign, kingdoms but it detail in, “The Articles of Union.

      Each, “Article of Union”, is, in itself, a legally binding condition of union.

      Go read the bloody thing!

      Furthermore take cognisance of the fact that the Westminster Establishment not only subjects Scotland to the laws that are applied to the Kingdom of England by the, English only, “MAGNA CARTA”, (Medieval Latin for “the Great Charter of the Liberties”). This is a charter of rights agreed to by King John of England at Runnymede, near Windsor, on 15 June 1215). Yet you imply the Treaty of Union is too ancient to have relevance.

      Not only the Magna Carta but Westminster recently dredged up English Laws dictated by Henry VIII to use against Scotland.

      The Treaty of Union is a live international treaty for if it was not a United Kingdom would not exist. So lets just put that argument to bed – shall we?

      ” … The UN agrees that each country/state/people have the right to govern themselves. With enough present day political pressure, especially from N.I. with their own particular recent political past, they would have little trouble becoming independent and get U.N. recognition for it. “

      So what? It has no relevance and is, as I said, quite a different case from that of The Kingdom of Scotland. I’m not going to, yet again, go over the case of Ireland, much less that of N.I. Which, BTW, is a little different from that of the old whole Kingdom of Ireland. The Kingdom of England was put under the Lordship of The King of England by the Holy Roman See.

      Then, in 1542, the English monarch had the Parliament of Ireland pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, placing the crown of all Ireland upon the head of the King of Ireland. That was England annexing Ireland as part of the English Kingdom. Got it now? There was no treaty of union.

      How N.I and the Republic partitioned is also quite a different matter and under international law illegal. Westminster claims a Treaty of Union but that is mince. To be a treaty needs two different sides and that one was, (at the time), between the UK and the UK but again not relevant to the Kingdom of Scotland’s case.

      The rest of you postulations are just that and have no relevance to the case of the two kingdom United Kingdom. For starters N.I. was a construct of the United Kingdom and, being after the Treaty of Union was as much that of the Kingdom of Scotland as it was the Kingdom of England.

      It is very apparent that you are accepting blindly the Westminster propaganda that Westminster is the parliament of England and the Kingdom of Scotland is a part of the Kingdom of England.

      Here are some truths for you:-

      The Bank of England does not belong to England as it was nationalised by the two partner United Kingdom in 1946.
      The pound sterling belongs to both UK kingdoms as agreed in the Treaty of Union.

      Westminster is the united Kingdom parliament and as much Scots as English. There is no legally elected parliament of England.

      You are full of Westminster brain washing propaganda and thus see everything as Westminster tells you to see it and not as to what it really is.

    332. Nana says:

      Socrates MacSporran wins best comment 🙂

    333. Cubby says:

      Anyone remember the Alexander bothers , no sorry the Alexander brother and sister. Wee Wendy and wee Douglas. The Labour in Scotland duo, now long gone, but not missed from Scottish politics.

      Remember when wee Wendy toured the TV studios about 20 years ago saying “bring it on ” to the Indyref before a date had been set. She was obviously very confident of winning. She tried to goad Salmond into an early date for indyref.

      None of that these days from the Britnats. They ain’t so confident of winning now. Now it is all about stopping indyref2 as they are scared of losing. Now we have the ludicrous situation of Truthless Davidson getting 12.5% of the EU vote claiming to speak for Scotland – saying Scotland doesn’t want indyref2.

      The Britnat media in Scotland is like the wee boy in the Netherlands with his finger in the dyke holding back the water. There is a continual trickle getting through for independence but eventually the dam will burst.

      Time is our friend.

    334. McBoxheid says:

      The Treaty of Union was forced upon the Scottish parliamentarians/landowners by Westminster and against the will of the sovereign people of Scotland.
      ———–
      The male landowners at that time in history were the sovereign people of Scotland. Nobody else had a vote to use their sovereignity. In a legal sense they had no actual sovreignity until universal sufferage.

      The bankrupt landowners who had greedily fallen for the unfortunate Darien scheme signed the treaty willingly as a way to bale themselves out of a bad investment.

      Robert Burns even wrote a poem about it:
      Such A Parcel Of Rogues In A Nation

      Fareweel to a’ our Scottish fame,
      Fareweel our ancient glory;
      Fareweel ev’n to the Scottish name,
      Sae fam’d in martial story.
      Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
      An’ Tweed rins to the ocean,
      To mark where England’s province stands-
      Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

      What force or guile could not subdue,
      Thro’ many warlike ages,
      Is wrought now by a coward few,
      For hireling ("Tractor" - Ed)’s wages.
      The English stell we could disdain,
      Secure in valour’s station;
      But English gold has been our bane-
      Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

      O would, or I had seen the day
      That Treason thus could sell us,
      My auld grey head had lien in clay,
      Wi’ Bruce and loyal Wallace!
      But pith and power, till my last hour,
      I’ll mak this declaration;
      We’re bought and sold for English gold-
      Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

      They could and should have held their hands up and accepted the consequences of their bad investment. Aye it was rigged. However they knew what they were doing when they sold Scotland off to protect their investment. It was greed and nothing else.

      Scottish unionist polititians are doing exactly the same thing today. They don’t want independence because they would loose their investment in the unionist political system that sees them living on easy street. They just haven’t seen that it is a cul de sac, or are too desperate to care. They are careerists that will have little no other options in iScotland.

      The establishment in london are also protecting their own investments. Their cash cow would disappear if they didn’t have Scotland and they would no longer afford to pay for the wars that they get rich on without it.

      I wonder how many Scots have invested in keeping Scotland tied to the union and how much they would stand to loose on independence?

    335. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ronnie Anderson (6.06) –

      I hear ye regarding online polls.

      I don’t ever post links to the Scotsman but the ET seems fair enough and if we’re not aware of them we can’t ‘win’ them, as we always end up doing.

      That second ET one BDTT mentioned (which I wasn’t aware of) had 8521 votes approx this time yesterday, 47% saying they’d vote Yes in indy2. That was with 17 hours left to vote. It closed with 25,347 votes cast, 63% Yes. No matter which way we cut it, that’s a lot of people responding in 24 hours.

      I take your point about click-bait, but that’s a huge potential audience for us to ignore and I don’t believe we can afford to.

      😉

    336. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says:29 May, 2019 at 12:17 pm:

      ” … a)Was it not an incorporating union from which it is not possible to pull out?”

      No! There can be no such thing between two equally sovereign partners. Obviously the two kingdoms must be legally sovereign to be able to agree to unite. Furthermore, if it had been an incorporating union then it would not be titled the United Kingdom nor would it be titled either the Kingdom of Scotland nor the Kingdom of England but something else or it would have been a legal annexation – not a treaty of union.

      b) Why do we never hear the SNP talk about it, even if only to educate the English that it was a union of two countries?

      Well why do they need to? It is the treaty that united the two kingdoms and not as you sat two countries. While Scotland is both a kingdom and a country the Kingdom of England incorporates three countries. Furthermore the result of adding two kingdoms together just makes a bigger , (united), kingdom, it does not make a bigger united country.

      The SNP getting independence will not be what many people seem to think. It is not separating two countries as Wales and N.I. will still be part of the Kingdom of England and England will still be a country. N.I. is still part of the country of Ireland it is just partitioned politically.

      So The Kingdom of England will still be a two country plus a part of another country Kingdom and Scotland will still be a unitary kingdom and country.

      There will still be a United Kingdom but it will be, as it was before 1603, only united personally for the sitting monarch.

      No one needs to politically tell about the Treaty of Union as anyone can read it for themselves. It isn’t on the top secret list.

    337. gus1940 says:

      If the BOJO case goes to full trial and a guilty verdict ensues surely this would be a shattering precedent whereby any politician who deliberately lied would be committing a crime in the same way that anybody lying in court is guilty of perjury.

      Further, on the subject of honesty would it not improve things in the WM Swamp if The Speaker were to be given the power to insist that ministers actually answer questions unlike the current situation when we have Ian Blackford asking questions to the PM which are never properly answered or no attempt is made to answer them.

      It would certainly be a novelty in WM politics if honesty became the rule and not the exception.

    338. Breeks says:

      Julian Assange reportedly gravely ill.

      I hope the Hospital is running the full battery of tests on all known poisons and nerve agents.

    339. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The words used by Alex Salmond was “once in a generation OPPORTUNITY” in an informal interview. It was never SNP policy.The manifesto we won the election is.

    340. auld highlander says:

      Rory the Tory having a “wee smoke”.

      https://news.sky.com/story/smoking-opium-in-iran-was-stupid-mistake-pm-hopeful-rory-stewart-admits-11731525

      now isn’t that not a class A drug?

    341. McBoxheid says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      30 May, 2019 at 10:56 am

      @McBoxheid says: 29 May, 2019 at 12:15 pm:

      Oh! For Heaven’s sake! Why Oh Why! Must I keep correcting these daft claims over and over again?
      ——-
      I certainly never asked or forced you to

      ——
      So what? It has no relevance
      ——

      A bit like your diatribe. You go to say:
      ——

      Im not going to, yet again, go over the case of Ireland, much less that of N.I.
      ——

      but you do
      ——

      Which, BTW, is a little different from that of the old whole Kingdom of Ireland. The Kingdom of England was put under the Lordship of The King of England by the Holy Roman See.

      Then, in 1542, the English monarch had the Parliament of Ireland pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, placing the crown of all Ireland upon the head of the King of Ireland. That was England annexing Ireland as part of the English Kingdom. Got it now? There was no treaty of union.

      How N.I and the Republic partitioned is also quite a different matter and under international law illegal. Westminster claims a Treaty of Union but that is mince. To be a treaty needs two different sides and that one was, (at the time), between the UK and the UK but again not relevant to the Kingdom of Scotland’s case.
      ——-

      You insist in lecturing me sensei, yes I, unlike you know the meaning of the word. In this case I am referring to your age. Not only that, you think you’re entitled to tell me what to do!
      ——
      Go read the bloody thing!

      ——
      The rest of you postulations are just that and have no relevance to the case of the two kingdom United Kingdom.
      ——
      Pure bluff and bluster!
      So NI and Wales are not countries? They might be a principality and a province, but try telling the people that live there that. They are also recognised as countries in sport with their own national teams. If they wanted to break away, if they had a majority for it, they would have a case. We live in the modern world where people have rights. Different rights that they had in 1707 where you still preach from.
      ——

      It is very apparent that you are accepting blindly the Westminster propaganda that Westminster is the parliament of England and the Kingdom of Scotland is a part of the Kingdom of England.
      ——
      Absolute rubbish! That is clearly not the case, Robert. What is, is that you are blindly pointing out to all and sundry that you have only one argument and that if others approach things in are wrong fashion, or use a “wrong” word in your opinion, even if it does not fit what they were saying contextually, then they suffer the lecture you like to give ad nauseam.

      You put others, who are supporters of independence down as if you were the absolute authority on the allowable vocabulary as far as the United Kingdom and it’s constituent parts goes on this site.

      You are just another poster, like me. I try to encourage those seeking independence, not scare them away from your own perceived remit

    342. geeo says:

      Cubby @1.40am

      Sorry, should have made that clear, Jane Gordon is just someone on Facebook who punted the line that financially, Barnett gives Scotland more money than anyone else.

      I dont think she liked my response.

      Not that i care, as I post such responses to show up people like that, and their complete bullcrap and lies.

    343. Robert Peffers says:

      @McBoxheid says: 29 May, 2019 at 12:33 pm:

      … Christ almighty, every time someone mentions the union that is the United Kingdom, but doesn’t quote chapter and verse, then they are pulled up by the constitutional thought police.”

      When are you going to stop talking pish and stop exaggerating everything?

      You seem unable to understand, or comprehend, basic English language. What you, and others, get pulled up for doing is misusing the correct terms. Those who get it right are never bothered. There is, of course, very good reason why there are people questioned about their careless, or deliberate, misuse of terms. Your overblown reactions boils down to one of two conclusions.

      Either you are at best a troll and at worse a unionist plant in Wings. However, at least for just now, I’ll assume you are just someone who cannot abide being found out to be wrong.

    344. Capella says:

      @ Nana – that Sputnik news article is the first I’ve come across to mention a direct link between psyops and the 2014 referendum.

      Political Connections
      Its political infiltration activities may extend beyond the online realm, however — in April it was revealed Kate Watson, a candidate for the Scottish Labour party and former head of ‘Better Together’, the official anti-Scottish independence campaign, was connected to the unit.

      Moreover, Conservative MP and Minister of State for the Armed Forces Mark Lancaster is the unit’s Deputy Commander. In an article written for website Conservative Home in July 2018, he boasted of how the British military was “transforming its traditional concept of the division” and creating “a new type of soldier”

      Pity we don’t have investigative journalists in Scotland capable of investigating this sort of interference in the democratic process. I hope the new Referendums bill addresses this.

      https://sputniknews.com/europe/201905281075410728-77th-brigade-recruitment-failure/

    345. Proud Cybernat says:

      Mr Peffers – I think you need to have a word with Mike Russell:

      Michael Russell
      ?
      Verified account

      @Feorlean
      Following Following @Feorlean
      More
      The UK however is an incorporating union, in which the parts (Scotland, England, Wales, NI) have given up their sovereign , independent identity. So Scotland would be independent as a member of the #EU but isn’t now.

      https://twitter.com/Feorlean/status/1133989874569240576

    346. geeo says:

      Cubby @11.09am.

      Talking about Ruth Davidson then mentioning a ‘finger in the dyke”, rightly or wrongly, conjured up a rather horrendous image there…thanks for that !!

      *and yes, i know ‘dyke’ is an unnacceptable prejorative term. No offence intended.

    347. Effijy says:

      This nonsense about once in a generation has got to be put
      in its place.

      It was a comment made to encourage people to get out and vote on the future of their country- Scotland.

      It wasn’t a Bill passed through our Parliament, it wasn’t put in our statute books, and it doesn’t appear in the Declaration of Arbroath. Its a personal comment, Full Stop.

      I do want to look at the First Referendum where the Purda was broken, where incomparable number of postal votes should appeared, where Wee Ruth declared on TV that she viewed the postal votes before the count had begun, where Scotland in Unionists received untold illegal Dark Monies
      from “Abroad” via the Dinosaur DUP, where the impartial state broadcaster took every opportunity to scaremonger and talk up the Unionist cause.

      Ruthless Harrison let’s look at the £3 Billion you promised Scotland for Renewable R & D if we voted No- Cancelled.
      How about the £1 Billion Carbon Capture investment in Peterhead-Cancelled, 13 major war ships for the Clyde-Cancelled, the 3,000 HMRC Jobs retained in East Kilbride- Now to relocate to Croyden,
      and my Favorite- Only a No Vote can keep Scotland in Europe- Cancelled.

      Now you Know in triplicate that Scots want to be European, you want to rip Scotland out, as it is what England demands of Ruth.

      Poisoned Dwarfs are not welcome in Scotland!

    348. Nana says:

      @Capella
      I did see another comment maybe or possible article about possible links between our indyref and ‘meddling’ of sorts. I don’t recall exactly where but here’s one article on Watson and you can also google Finchley Rd shell companies for info.

      https://theclarionmag.org/2018/06/02/glasgow-east-selection-the-inside-story-2/

    349. McBoxheid says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      30 May, 2019 at 12:16 pm

      @McBoxheid says: 29 May, 2019 at 12:33 pm:

      … Christ almighty, every time someone mentions the union that is the United Kingdom, but doesn’t quote chapter and verse, then they are pulled up by the constitutional thought police.”

      When are you going to stop talking pish and stop exaggerating everything?

      You seem unable to understand, or comprehend, basic English language. What you, and others, get pulled up for doing is misusing the correct terms. Those who get it right are never bothered. There is, of course, very good reason why there are people questioned about their careless, or deliberate, misuse of terms. Your overblown reactions boils down to one of two conclusions.

      Either you are at best a troll and at worse a unionist plant in Wings. However, at least for just now, I’ll assume you are just someone who cannot abide being found out to be wrong.
      —–
      Certainly neither, but that is what you tend to hear from people who disagree with your POV on Wings.

      How very dare I disagree with you. I must be;

      a. A troll
      b. A unionist plant

      Much simpler than agreeing to disagree, or having to admit that you have no argument.

      You, yourself ceeded some of the points I was making in an earlier post.

      I’ll not bother with your posts in future, Robert, I’ll just move on to the next one that might have something interesting to say.

    350. jfngw says:

      Spotted this Willie Rennie tweet:

      The Scottish Government have learned absolutely nothing from the lessons of Brexit. Breaking up long term economic partnerships leads to nothing but chaos and economic upheaval.

      What it is effectively saying is, if England decides on a No Deal Brexit then the LibDem’s will support that for Scotland. If there was one party being deceitful to the EU election voters, it was the LibDem’s. They are only Remain if England agrees, I don’t really see the difference between them and people like Sajid Javid.

    351. manandboy says:

      UNDERSTANDING BREXIT AND THE TORY PANIC ABOUT INDYREF2

      https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the-problem-with-the-english-england-doesn-t-want-to-be-just-another-member-of-a-team-1-4851882

      Published in Jan 2017 and written by Nicholas Boyle, who is Emeritus Schröder Professor of German, University of Cambridge, and author of ‘Who are we now?’ (1998: University of Notre Dame Press; and, 2014: ‘How to Survive the Next World Crisis’ )

      This article must be one of the most significant pieces of diagnostic information written in the past ten years. It is truly compulsory reading for everyone in Scotland, as well as the rest of the UK, although it is unlikely to be accepted by those suffering from English exceptionalism, like the three main Unionist parties, Tory, Labour and LibDems, and the Loyalist movements in NI and Scotland.

      Here are some excerpts :-

      “Brexit is the result of an English delusion, a crisis of identity resulting from a failure to come to terms with the loss of empire and the end of its own exceptionalism. ”

      “Those who voted Leave in the referendum were not voting about globalisation or stagnating living standards or austerity and declining welfare payments, they were voting about the EU, and it is condescension to pretend otherwise. But they were not being asked by the Leave campaign to express a preference for a particular rationally argued and practically feasible economic and political alternative to membership of the EU – that is evident, for none was offered before the referendum and none has emerged since. They were being asked to express an emotion about membership, and the English, but not the Irish or Scots, felt so urgent a need to express it that they threw reason and practicality to the winds.

      The emotion central to the Leave campaign was the fear of what is alien, and this trumped the Remainers’ Project Fear-of-wholly-foreseeable-damage. The true Project Fear was the Leave party’s unrelenting presentation of the EU as a lethal threat to national identity, indeed as the stranger and enemy who had already stolen it: give us back our country, they said, our sovereignty, our £350m a week, let us control our borders, let our population not be swamped by immigrants or our high streets by Polish shops – and to vote against the EU was to vote to recover what we had lost. The voting pattern, however, revealed that appeal to that emotion, and that vision of the EU, worked only in England.”

      ” For the English, the United Kingdom occupies the psychic space once filled by the empire: it is the last guarantor of their characterlessness, it is the phantom which in the English mind substitutes for the England which the English will not acknowledge is their only home. They will not acknowledge it lest they become just another nation like everybody else, with a specific, limited identity, a specific history, neither specially honourable nor specially dishonourable, with limited weight, limited resources, and limited importance in the world now that their empire is no more.

      That is the terrifying truth that membership of the EU presents to the English and from which for centuries the empire insulated them: that they have to live in the world on an equal footing with other people. From that truth they seek shelter in the thought that really they belong not to England at all but to something more imposing, or at least different: the UK, or, less accurately, ‘Britain’, within which they can cocoon the non-identity they took on in 1707 as the imperial adventure was beginning.”

      ” England has never wanted to join in the process of growing together, not because it rejects the goal of a ‘super-state’, which exists only in England’s fearful imagination, but because it rejects the idea of collaborating with equals – it doesn’t want to be just another member of a team, for then it would have to recognise that it has after all an identity of its own.

      The referendum vote does not deserve to be respected because, as an outgrowth of English narcissism, it is itself disrespectful of others, of our allies, partners, neighbours, friends, and, in many cases, even relatives. Like resentful ruffians uprooting the new trees in the park and trashing the new play area, millions of English, the lager louts of Europe, voted for Brexit in an act of geopolitical vandalism.

      Two pillars of the unwritten British constitution collapsed on June 23. The sovereignty of the Westminster parliament was seriously challenged, and possibly overturned, by a referendum that should never have been called. And the attempt of the Unions of 1707 and 1800 to create a single British nation to rule a global empire was finally shown up as a self-deceptive device by the English to deny the Scots and the Irish a will of their own.”

      Do read the entire article and share it widely – you’ll be so glad you did.

    352. Hamish100 says:

      The UK however is an incorporating union, in which the parts (Scotland, England, Wales, NI) have given up their sovereign , independent identity.

      Did Wales and NI have any choice. They were occupied countries? Sadly a few Lords sold us down the river- and still do.

    353. I here Boris is to be taken to court for lying does that set a president so that Blair and Campbell can be taken to court for lying about WMD or T., May for saying we will Ieave the EU on the 29 March or Cameron Clegg Milliband for their vow or would they be classed as a Carmichael case guilty but not guilty ??? Aye truth and real justice lie hidden in an unmarked grave

    354. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here one for folk who are just beginning to acknowledge the fascist nature of contemporary British nationalism, which is simply the practice of Tory ethos, at the end of the day.

      Political Ideologies
      An introduction, fifth edition

      ….However, there are significant divisions within conservative thought. Authoritarian conservatism is starkly autocratic and reactionary, stressing that government ‘from above’ is the only means of establishing order, and thus contrasts with the more modest and pragmatic Anglo-American conservatism that stems from the writing of Edmund Burke (1729-97).

      Paternalistic conservatism draws upon a combination of prudence and principle in arguing both that ‘reform from above’ is preferable to ‘revolution from below’, and that the wealthy have an obligation to look after the less well-off, duty being the price of privilege. Such ideas were most influentially expressed by Benjamin Disraeli (1804-81). This tradition is most fully developed in the form of One Nation conservatism, which advocates a ‘middle way’ approach to state-market relations and gives qualified support to economic management and welfarism.

      Libertarian conservatism advocates the greatest possible economic liberty and the least possible government regulation of social life, echoing laissez-faire liberalism, but harnesses this to a belief in a more traditional, conservative social philosophy that stresses the importance of authority and duty. This tradition provided the basis for New Right theories and values.

      https://www.macmillanihe.com/companion/Heywood-Political-Ideologies/resources/Chapter-summaries/

    355. chicmac says:

      Start the car?

      I’ve been tempted to sculpt a wee nodding figurine for the back windae of the car but decided he wouldn’t be leader long enough to make it worth the while.

    356. Hamish100 says:

      FM QT– Mike Russell raises a point of order. BBC RADIO Commentator cuts us off by saying we wouldn’t wan’t to hear this!! Really? I do as it related to FMQ’s .

      Quick jump to BBC Scotland. NI rep for the Dairy Record Clegg spouting his usual. It appears BBC Tele and radio both decide. Censorship at its worse..

    357. Capella says:

      @ Nana – thx for the link to that Clarion article. An interesting read. Some very dubious characters out there. Or here, there and everywhere! Off for a stroll down Finchley Road now.

    358. Capella says:

      @ Hamish100 – it’s best to listen directly to the Parliament TV webcast. There are no BBC filters telling you what to think about what your own ears have just heard.

      https://www.scottishparliament.tv

    359. robbo says:

      Petra & others

      -What Alex Salmond said is on Angus McNeil’s twitter feed at top,always has.

      https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP

    360. Abulhaq says:

      In praise of the British Empire aka English Empire.
      https://www.conservapedia.com/British_Empire
      Spot the errors.

    361. CameronB Brodie says:

      So what might Brexitanian Conservative paternalism look like and what are the likely implications for future education policy. Remember that the culture of today shapes the minds that go on to shape tomorrow’s culture.

      AUTHORITARIANISM IN 20TH CENTURY GREECE
      Ideology and Education under the dictatorships of 1936 and 1967

      ABSTRACT

      This study examines the authoritarian ideology and educational policy of two dictatorial regimes of 20th century Greece: the Metaxas’ dictatorship of 1936-1941 (the 4th of August regime); and the military junta of 1967-1974 (the 21st of April regime). Although viewed comparatively, the regimes in question are shown to have been different, due to crucial differences stemming from their contemporary international and domestic settings.

      Moreover, their ideologies were shaped by the way dictatorial rulers perceived and interpreted their reality. Influenced by the inter-war fascist context, the 4th of August regime tried to accommodate a radical fascist rhetoric to a nationalistic and traditionalist set of beliefs. Metaxas’ perception of reality was exemplified in his educational policy, through which the dictator unsuccessfully tried to mobilise from above the youth, on the imported model of the fascist youth movements.

      The 21st of April regime contrasted sharply with the post-war international liberal environment, while its ideology was marked by the distinct and often contradictory mentalities of the colonels. The contradictions and inconsistencies of the military mind were reproduced at the educational level, as the military rulers attempted to demobilise a highly organised youth, to reverse the previous liberal educational reforms and to appoint loyalists to key posts.

      So, while the 4th of August saw the legitimation of its authority in the use of an openly authoritarian discourse and the mobilisation of the youth, the 21st of April regime, by contrast, torn by the conflicting mentalities of its military rulers, sought legitimacy through clientelistic networks of support and the demobilisation of the youth.

      etheses.lse.ac.uk/1304/1/U062733.pdf

      #permissionFromSajid

    362. Tam the Bam. says:

      FMQ’s

      Dear Edna

      (still holding my sides).

    363. Footsoldier says:

      I do wish the SNP hierarchy including Nicola would add the word “again” when referring to independence e.g. Scotland wants to be an independent country again. It’s as if we never were independent.

      It might “educate” those who are ignorant of Scotland’s history.

    364. Sarah says:

      @Footsoldier: totally agree. I have been trying to encourage Yessers to talk about regaining or restoring Scotland’s position as an equal to all other countries.

      Scotland is NOT a NEW country – it exists and has been manipulated and coerced into having no power of self-governance, in complete contravention of the Treaty of Union.

    365. geeo says:

      @footsoldier+sarah @1.39+1.49pm

      When you explain the ACTUAL constitutional reality of the United Kingdom to people, as in it being a Union of 2 Previously independent Kingdoms (Scotland and England) they should get the message you seek.

      How do you describe leaving the EU, for example ?

      Brexit or Ukexit ?

      If we want to address minutae of language, Brexit means ‘British Exit’.

      Yet ‘Britain’ is not a country, never mind a member of the EU, so how can we ‘Brexit’ the EU ?

      ‘Ukexit’ describes the United Kingdom exiting the EU and is the correct terminology.

      Stressing about the SNP not using the word ‘again’ in reference to an independent Scotland, is rather purile nonsense, frankly.

      Especially if people, complaining about such minutae of language by our Yes politicians, themselves use wholly inaccurate descriptive terms on a legal and constitutional level.

      Glass houses, stones etc.

      Some folk seem to just want to find ‘SNP BAD’ in everything. (sigh)

    366. Hamish100

      just been listening to FMQ’s on catch up and the point of order from Mike Rusell was in fact a correction of Willie Rennie’s statement that there had been no mention of the 2nd EU referendum in Mike Russell’s speech the preceding day.

      Mike Russell quoted directly from the transcript of his speech and sure enough he had mentioned that the SNP would support a second EU referendum – cue one sheepish Willie Rennie but one who was let off the hook by the Presiding officer who effectively said that he felt it was enough that the point had been made in the chamber so Willie Rennie didn’t have to stand up and state when he would ensure the record was corrected.

    367. Sarah says:

      @geeo: just trying to increase awareness, let some light in – every angle must be tried. The word “independence” is scary for some folk!

    368. Jomry says:

      @manandboy 12.39.
      Thank you for the link to Boyle’s article. Well worth reading the complete text. A very perceptive piece.

    369. Breeks says:


      Proud Cybernat says:
      30 May, 2019 at 12:30 pm
      Mr Peffers – I think you need to have a word with Mike Russell:

      Michael Russell
      ?
      Verified account

      @Feorlean
      Following Following @Feorlean
      More
      The UK however is an incorporating union, in which the parts (Scotland, England, Wales, NI) have given up their sovereign , independent identity. So Scotland would be independent as a member of the #EU but isn’t now…

      It’s those wee “slips of the tongue” which make me get annoyed with SNP. Of all the people, in all the parties, in all the world who should understand both Scotland’s Constitutional integrity and the associated faux integrity of the UK Union, you would think the SNP of all people would be word perfect on the subject, and all singing from the same Constitutionally literate hymn sheet.

      As a DIRECT and immediate consequence, when for example Nicola Sturgeon steamrollers Scotland’s Sovereign Remain mandate to promote a Soft Brexit compromise, we are asked to believe it is the shrewdness of genius, but what it actually resembles is a less than surefooted grasp of the Constitution and what the sovereign will of the people literally means. I’m sorry, but it does!

      Mike Russell was Scotland’s Brexit negotiator, when Scotland was being excluded from Brexit negotiations, and it’s not hard to understand a man who believes Scotland had given up its Sovereignty would struggle to win the Constitutional argument why Scotland should have been included in the negotiations. I like Mike Russell, but come on, isn’t that just a wee bit inexcusable???

      FFS SNP. Can you not all pick a day and all of you Troop round to Robert Peffer’s house to be properly schooled on Scotland’s Constitutional Rights and realities, and then maybe, just maybe, we can finally stop this Constitutional Merry-go-round, and finally, all of us, can stand firm on Constitutional red lines which at the very, very, least we all understand and agree upon?

      No wonder we are so easily swayed from our path by Unionist sophistry and brazen bluster that is never challenged. Most of us don’t even know the right script we’re meant to be following and those that do, have multiple often contradictory interpretations of what it means. ITS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

      Even the SNPbad Defence Force, Petra, Geeo, you MUST see that don’t you? It should be such an easy thing to fix no? Every last one of us pro Independentists should be a goddamned EXPERT on this matter. Dissenting views debated and common ground secured, and we distill this dog’s breakfast into simple, easily digestible criteria whereby we know the exact A-B-C route to secure Scotland’s escape from this Union.

      That doesn’t mean we’re all on one route, and discard all the others. A democratic route to Independence might be just as legitimate as a Judicial / Constitutional route, but it is possible to understand these alternate paths ultimately come to the same destination, and rather than competing with each other, we should be sharing knowledge amongst ourselves and everybody falling into step.

      To the SNP’s Campaign Manager, get a grip on this. – less campaigning and a shed-load more managing.

    370. Cubby says:

      FM Questions today. BBC Scotland

      Poor Shona Craven of the National having to stand betweeen two leading Britnat propagandists – toodle ooh the noo Taylor and Norn Ireland’s favourite unionist embedded in Scotland. Clegg of the Daily Redcoat. She obviously has a strong stomach.

    371. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      toodle ooh the noo Taylor is not a Britnat propagandist. He works forthe BBC which is difficult thing to do.

    372. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.facebook.com/bill.mcglen/posts/138982847250597

      Ur we expected tae walk this way noo .

    373. geeo says:

      sarah@2.51pm

      Fair enough, so perhaps try telling them that Scottish revenues were recently claimed to be £200bn on a BBC interview.

      But tell them, that was not the view of anyone on the Yes/indy side saying it, far from it.

      Then gently say to them, Scotland gets £30bn from tge block grant to run ALL public services in Scotland, whether its the SNP or Labour or the moomins in charge at Holyrood.

      Then ask them if they reckon another £170bn would..

      a) help fund Scottish services

      b) hinder it.

      Or/and

      Say to them, “you have £200 in your hand, i will take all of it and give you £30 to run your household.

      When you complain you do not have enough money for stuff, I call you a whinging neighbour who wants my £170 but i am not giving you it because it will make you WORSE off not better off”

      Then simply say, that is devolution over independence.

      If you can actuall use a real £200 to do that, it is an incredibly powerful visual tool.

      I tried it on an 8 year old relative, and even she said “thats stupid”.

    374. Cubby says:

      Dave McEwan Hill@4.46pm

      Dave

      If I interpret your comment correctly you are saying Taylor is not a propagandist. Care to let me know your thinking on this. What is he then in your opinion? I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on this. Is he just unlucky that he chose to work for a BBC that is one of the worlds best propaganda organisations and he didn’t realise what he was doing. A bit of the Kezia defence – stupid my lord not biased. Or is he a secret SNP plant that is about to spill the beans on the BBC during indyref2.

    375. chicmac says:

      My 2p.

      For me, the jury is out on whether Brian Taylor is a happy unionist bunny or a frustrated closet indy supporter muchly constrained by the BBC song sheet.

    376. Cubby says:

      Chicmac@12.17am

      I respect your opinion. Don’t agree with it though. Any decent Indy supporter shouldn’t be anywhere near these programmes.

    377. geeo says:

      Oh please!!!

      Brian Taylor stands there after FMQ’s and tells you what happened, which is always the complete opposite of what you just watched for yourself !!

      If he does not believe that, then of course he is a propagandist.

      If he is a closet (or any other kind) of indy supporter, and promoting unionist propaganda, then at best he has ZERO integrity as a person and a journalist.

      There are NO scenarios where he is not a wee tosspot.

    378. iainmore says:

      I think he is doing a splendid job of destroying Scot Lab or what is left of it. Let him keep his job!



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