The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


Dissolve The Union, says Labour

Posted on June 30, 2019 by

That’s the only reasonable interpretation of this tweet from Jenny Marra MSP.

Because clearly if the Scottish Parliament of 1707 was an illegitimate oligarchy that didn’t represent the people – and it certainly didn’t – then it can’t have had any right to sign away the sovereignty of Scotland and the Acts Of Union must immediately be repealed and a new referendum held to decide whether Scotland should join the UK.

And of course, we already know how that would go.

So we look forward to Jenny Marra supporting a new referendum, of a slightly diffrent nature to the last one, as soon as possible. Along with all the other well-known Scottish Labour figures who liked her tweet:

Which certainly would be pretty radical.

Any day now, we’re sure.

Print Friendly

    1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 30 06 19 10:56

      Dissolve The Union, says Labour | speymouth

    224 to “Dissolve The Union, says Labour”

    1. winifred mccartney says:

      I suppose though she thinks the WM parl of 1707 was represented by her ancestors. Labour put brain in gear before engaging your emouth.

      On one thing she is right the most radical things are still to come and it won’t be under labour who did not think we needed more homes, roads, bridges or anything else and therefore sent funds back to WM.

    2. Conan the Librarian says:

      The Commissioners signed and the people rioted. Nothing ever changes.

    3. Hamish100 says:

      What occurred in 1707 is outwith or our control.Scotland was as modern as any other at the time period.

      Next Marra will be saying labour will dissolve the unelected House of Lords ( McConnell and that ilk will have a hairy canary) and remove an unelected Queen with some German ancestry.

      Is this Labour policy?

    4. jdman says:

      Well well well
      https://twitter.com/jdmanjohn/status/1145238061120401409
      great minds think alike!

    5. Muscleguy says:

      Ms Mara has never struck me as the brightest bulb in the box. People should note she lost in the constituency to the SNP here in Dundee but got into the parliament nevertheless on the List. She’s the Murdo Fraser of SLAB, unable to persuade the public to vote for her.

    6. Calum McKay says:

      Ms Mara sums labour up to a tee, little intellect, portrays a sense of entitlement and will say anything to get a populist headline!

      Biggest fear Ms Mara and her cohorts in labour in Scotland would have if they actually got elected and had to govern, but as we all know, fat chance of that!

    7. Heather McLean says:

      Jenny Marra is as duplicitous as they come and changes her narrative to suit her own purposes.
      I distinctly remember her giving a speech in support of Better Together at Dundee University students union where she said “ we voted to join the UK” and I reminded her that “we” the ordinary people of Scotland certainly did not, as we didn’t even have a vote until 1918 and it was 1928 before women got the full vote. Indeed, there were riots by the ordinary people all over Scotland in protest at the decision.

    8. Dr Jim says:

      Notice how there are still 18% of zoomer Unionists who say they would happily allow England to be in charge of their country even though the term Unionist wouldn’t have even been invented

      So is that 18% of Scottish people require medical intervention or locked up in an asylum or just that one corner of a football stadium filled with froth mouthed crazed nutters who can’t even spell the word parliament

    9. Scott Cameron says:

      Is that the same Jenny Marra, the socialist who married in to the wealthy DC Thomson family?

    10. Effijy says:

      Is she from the English Labour Party who decided that the McCrone Report prediction of great wealth for an Independent Scotland should be buried and made top secret?

      Does she work in English Labour’s North Accounting Unit that decided to steal 6,000 square miles of Scottish Maritime waters for England?

      She also seems to forget her Labour Party MP’s had written to the Tory Government of the 60’s
      Demanding a stop to Blacks entering a White UK.

      How about when Labour refused to vote against the next round of Tory Austerity that was already crippling the poor?

      Is she aware it was Labour MP’s who voted against a Labour Government that let the Thatcher Government in for a 17 year onslaught against the working classes.

      Was she in the Blair/ Brown new Labour Party that was a ruinous photo copy of the Tory Party?

      If she can recall, one of her many North Party leaders confessed that for over a year she asked if
      She could claim that Scottish Labour were against the new Tory Party Bedroom Tax that raped the
      Benefits of the poorest, 81% of whom were the disabled?

      Then Labour can look at their managed projects such as the Holyrood Building going
      10 the mess over budget, the Edinburgh Tram System too, oh and the PFI Initiative Brown
      Came up with. £50 Billion of new schools and hospitals to make him look good and at a cost
      Of over £300 Billion with the interest added on?

      It doesn’t Marra what this mouthpiece says Labour are a Disgrace and they have inflicted great
      Harm to Scotland. The sooner they are wiped out here the better.

    11. Iain mhor says:

      Thanks for the link to the Anne McKim article.
      Bonus reading.

    12. Abulhaq says:

      Why we need more quality and intellect in our politics. Plainly some people enjoy shooting themselves in the mouth. Labour in Scotland is road kill.
      Now what about the legitimacy of that place in Westminster? No democratic, popular sovereignty there.

    13. James Westland says:

      Heather McLean @ 09:42 mentions riots.

      I am at the Youth Hostel in the old part of Stirling right now. Took a walk earlier past the Mercat cross (with its unicorn on top). Its about a minutes walk from the hostel. A plaque on the wall nearby mentions that the Cross was the scene of riots because of the 1707 union!

    14. Clootie says:

      At every opportunity we see Labour linked with Tories in running down Scotland. They scream the word socialism and at the same time demand acceptance of Tory rule from London.

      Labour use a veil of deceit to mislead people in Scotland. Do they think we have forgotten that the greatest decline in Scottish industry happened during the decades we sent Labour MPs South.

      We have had the opportunity to contribute since 1707 and the rough wooing. We can send our young men to be cannon fodder in Imperial Wars and we can send the bulk of our wealth to London in support of the Empire.

      What other Nation would be suffer under such abuse and still have politicians demanding we accept our place as England’s trophy.

    15. Undeadshuan says:

      At least german scifi writers are doing well, out of brexit…

      Titles like
      Brainfuck
      Droneland

      http://archive.is/pm7VM

    16. call me dave says:

      Heard the minister (wee free) David Robertson on shortbread this morning. Nothing good to say for the Scottish Government
      Education and SNHS in crisis and the poor in the country!

      Runs a blog in Dundee…. Gets a full interview and slates Scotland and in the last few minutes tells us he’s off to Australia for two years to do evangelistic work….FGS!

      PS:
      Jenny Marta… Oh her! …Shurley schome mistake! 🙂

    17. Dr Jim says:

      We live in strange and unusual times now when a large proportion of England want’s Scotland to vote for Independence in order to save England, when England voted to put us in the mess in the first place

      A note to England: Stop voting for things you’re not good at it

    18. bobajock says:

      Its Labour – they used to be special, and now they are!

    19. Vronsky says:

      A couple of typos, Rev, most unlike you, makes me worry. ‘wouljd’ ‘diffrnt’. Please correct and then delete this comment.

      (Braces himself for a reply entirely in UPPERCASE).

    20. Serinde says:

      Jenny Marra has committed one of the great historical solipsisms: judging the past through her own personal experience and the concerns of her own time.

      This is why history needs to be taught in schools. By which I mean a curriculum organised in a chronological way which doesn’t fudge the tricky bits, like the Reformation or, indeed, the lead-up to and the fallout from the Union of 1707. (My favourite was a teacher who decided to “teach” Mary, Queen of Scots to 11-yr-olds, but who decided to leave out any reference to religion because we were located in the West of Scotland. Oh, dear.)

      Instead, many schools favour the old standards starting with an appetiser of the industrial revolution with a side helping of the expansion of the franchise, before the main course of (yet again) World War II. This is a very particular sort of “history”: the history of progress, duping yet another unwary generation.

      My children’s state school didn’t offer Scottish history options, but in a way, that’s not the point. The point is that, even if these choices had been available, they would still have been absolutely unable to place what they had learned into a wider context, for the simple reason that each topic had been torn out and presented with no connection to anything that came either before or after.

      So, Marra’s sound-bite comments and the trail of people who followed her lead, are exactly what I’d expect. Not that it’s any less disappointing.

    21. Frank Waring says:

      Hamish100 says:
      30 June, 2019 at 9:27 am
      ‘…..remove an unelected Queen with some German ancestry.’
      Well, ok, but don’t forget that Elizabeth II owes her position to her descent from Mary, Queen of Scots.

    22. Me Bungo Pony says:

      By Ms Marra’s criteria, the current Westminster Parliament is barely 90 years old as it was the 1928 Representation of the People Act that finally gave all women the vote (prior to that, only the small minority over 30 who owned sufficient property could vote). Hardly “the mother of Parliaments” then. Will she now call into question the legitimacy of that institution’s claim to venerable reverence?

    23. galamcennalath says:

      Clootie says:

      What other Nation would be suffer under such abuse and still have politicians demanding we accept our place as England’s trophy.

      Indeed. There are two types of small nation in Europe …

      1) Those which asserted their national sovereignty and escaped the clutches of larger neighbours and predatory empires. They took their place as a nation among nations on the international stage. We see them before us on any map.

      2) Those which didn’t make it and were assimilated into bigger entities. For most it’s probably too late. A look at a 300-400 year old map shows them. Large countries (by European standard) like Italy and Germany are 19thC constructs and within their borders are ‘lost nations’. Spain is older but also contains assimilated nations – one, of course, is trying hard to assert itself.

      I really don’t know the history of countries like Bavaria or Savoy. There must have been pressures from within and outwith to merge into larger entities. Folks on either side.

      Where do these Labour types really stand? It’s a good question. In public they are BritNats. However they must know in recent polls their residual voters are ~40% YES (unlike Tories and LibDems whose voters are far more anti Indy). Many/most Yessers and SNP voters have come from Labour. I have always held out hope that more Labour will cross over.

      So, which is it to be for Scotland? We have an opportunity to assert our nationhood, or to choose to be full assimilated into Greater England.

    24. Big Jock says:

      Frank good point.

      Remember the current monarchy were last connected to the Stewarts when Anne was on the throne. Anne’s second cousin George the German Hannovarian got the gig cause he was the only Proddy after Anne.

      They scoured Europe and there were 300 hundred closer in line. They were all catholic so coukd not take the gig. The whole thing is absolute shite. There is no royal bloodline.

    25. Proud Cybernat says:

      Ethnocentric projection at its worst.

    26. Richard Hunter says:

      I heard that point over the weekend, and it chimed with me, particularly in the light of all the stupid pageantry (pipe bands with brass instruments playing Monty Python). I’m all for the idea that our parliament is new and that its traditions should be appropriately modern. No need to ape Westminster.

      But yeah, this consequence of that had not occurred to me.

    27. Cubby says:

      Jenny Marra what a total British Labour in Scotland numptie. She talks about representation in the Scottish parliament. She represents a BRITISH Party in the SCOTTISH parliament. She opens her mouth and out pours a lot of mince.

      Talking about numpties. I’m not one for listening to the radio much but I do like Indylive.radio. Out in the car this morning and my wife has left radio Clyde on and there is a discussion/phone in going on about drug deaths etc in Scotland. Next thing I am hearing callers saying the Scotgov has to do something. All the Scotgov do is talk and no action they say.

      Do these numpties never stop to think it is a devolved Parliament and by definition does not have the full range of powers an independent parliament would have. Do they never think before criticising to check if the power is devolved. Or are they BRITISH Labour in Scotland supporters following Leonard’s classy approach of criticising the Scotgov on areas that are not devolved.

      Finally, another caller phones in and says, all apologetically, that she thinks perhaps the Scotgov have been asking for permission from Westminster to allow them to take some action but it has been refused. Scots having to ask permission from London to try and help save other Scots lives. Makes my blood boil.

      I personally have seen the SNP MPs on a number of occasions in Westminster almost begging for permission to take some action to set up drug centres to try and get a measure of control over drug deaths but numpties phone up radio stations complaining about the Scotgov not doing anything.

      Being a member of this horrendous UK Union is costing Scottish lives.

    28. Marcia says:

      Mrs Thomson’s grasp of political history has been her weak point (one of many). We are in the present and the mess the UK is in, is what matters now, not her version of the events of 1707. If the public had been given the vote in 1707 then it would have rejected the union. Still smirk at her discomfiture that was on the front page of the Dundee Courier of the 2016 Dundee West Holyrood declaration when Labour actually lost votes despite having a lot of free publicity by the family she married into. Her face told it all.

    29. James F. McIntosh says:

      I think the time has come to decide with a ref question of all powers ie independence or no hollyrood. It would certainly focus the snp in what is really their objective and would force the people who like Hollyrood but are a bit undecided about independence to finally make higher minds.

    30. Robert Peffers says:

      @Frank Waring says: 30 June, 2019 at 10:46 am:

      … ok, but don’t forget that Elizabeth II owes her position to her descent from Mary, Queen of Scots.”

      Indeed so, Frank, but it was entirely by her own choice she decided that her official designation would be Elizabeth II and Scotland never had an Elizabeth I.

      By her own choice she remains officially o0nly Queen of England and never Queen of Scots. Furthermore, never forget she did so in the face of Scottish protest and hot heads blowing up pillar boxes that carried the ER II insignia.

    31. misteralz says:

      @undeadshaun at 10:23!

      Good article! Sibille Berg’s comments about England’s uniqueness were absolutely spot on. Absolutely.

    32. starlaw says:

      Call me Dave 10:29
      Thanks Dave, heard that interview and noted the bile which poured forth parrot-fashion from him regards SNP policies, this is becoming a well known script which is either being read out or recited, as its word for word, and unchallenged by regular guests on Radio Shortbread. Glad to hear that he is a Wee Free heading for Australia he will be well received by these un-enlightened peoples, perhaps he can even talk them into handing over their freedom to Westminster. Yes I’m sure he will be well received in Australia especially in the outback ranch’s.

    33. What a stupid snide comment from a serial political failure.
      It’s nice to know that she has the Thomson millions to fall back on when we eventually kick her (but we did that several times already?) and her grubby wee British Labour Party out of Independent Scotland.
      Is this the lass who lied about NHS pay offs?
      She appears to be that dense that light bends around her. (The Thick Of It. Malcolm Tucker.)
      I post this as Dugdale Fair Comment.
      Has Dick Leotard appointed his very own Malcolm Fucker?

    34. Dr Jim says:

      Jeremy Hunt admits on Marr that the Republic of Ireland is doing better than England, although England’s still better, but he can make the UK just as good as Ireland if he’s got control of Scotland

      That’s an English British Nationalist talking there completely unable to disguise it

      The only thing left for these people to say is that they’ll *Enforce* their will on Scotland then it’ll be over and surely no self respecting person in Scotland (excepting the nutters) is going to put up with that

      Paragraph 18 of the Smith Commission is clear

      *It is agreed that nothing in this report prevents Scotland being an Independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose*

      By their own words they are condemned

    35. Robert Peffers says:

      @James F. McIntosh says:30 June, 2019 at 12:00 pm:

      … I think the time has come to decide with a ref question of all powers ie independence or no hollyrood. It would certainly focus the snp in what is really their objective …

      So it’s all the SNP’s fault is it, James?

    36. Iain mhor says:

      Me Bungo Pony @10:48

      A fair point and where is the definition drawn? It was 1969 before 18 yr olds had representation.
      Let us consider then a simple rule and a well established maxim: “No taxation without representation” Introduce a looser principle, that taxation in the UK generally applies at working age. Further, that working age and taxation is generally at 16yr old – then we have the Scottish Parliament having primacy as the democratic ‘representative’ parliamemt in the UK.

      Arguably, this primacy of representation is only at local government level and there is no direct Scottish taxation for 16yr olds, though there is a new Scottish tax system imminent. In the event of Scottish Independence though, Scotland will arguably be the first, truly representative parliament in Great Britain.

    37. Cubby says:

      Of course Jenny Marra will take the same approach to that parliament in Westminster. That right Jenny? Tell the rest of your English colleagues that their parliament that they like to prattle on about being a thousand years old and all that crap is not really a proper democratic parliament and has only recently come into existence as a proper parliament. Oh wait has it – it’s still got Lords that are hereditary and others appointed. That’s really democratic isn’t it Jenny. A proper Jenny Marra democratic parliament. Marra and her colleagues are a joke.

      I won’t hold my breath waiting for her to say the same about the so called mother of parliaments. These Britnats like Marra are overflowing with the CRINGE.

    38. Jack Murphy says:

      Scott Cameron asked at 10:03 am:

      ” Is that the same Jenny Marra, the socialist who married in to the wealthy DC Thomson family? ”

      Yes,she married John.

    39. Frank Gillougley says:

      Call Me Dave 10.29

      David Robertson – feck the rev bit.

      Another wolf in the respectable cloth of punditry, recently given greater credence by the unquestioning media and gullible public.

      Fact: Having done my homework and checked out his blog often over the past year, this is a man who argues that the sexuality of homosexuals is no different to that of paedophiles. I kid you not. But the media wouldn’t tell you that now would they?

    40. Craig P says:

      Currently the UK Parliament is run by Eton millionaires.

      Legitimate, Jenny?

    41. Marie Clark says:

      Oh my, I think this lady should remember the old adage,better to say nothing and be thought a fool, than open your mouth and confirm it.

      Labour in Scotland still don’t get it, do they, and that’s why their vote is dwindling.

    42. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…no self respecting person in Scotland (excepting the nutters) is going to put up with that.”

      You mean cringing, bended knee, nutters like this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkwJt-i9YhY&feature=youtu.be

    43. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      30 June, 2019 at 12:01 pm
      @Frank Waring says: 30 June, 2019 at 10:46 am:
      …………

      The right of the monarch to choose their Regnal number was the subject of the Court Case, MacCormick vs the Lord Advocate in 1953 in which MacCormick challenged the El8zabeth II designation.

      MacCormick lost the case. The Court’s decision was that the matter of the Regnal number came under the Royal prerogative and was a matter for the Monarch to decide.

    44. Craig P says:

      Frank Gillougley says:

      David Robertson – feck the rev bit.

      Another wolf in the respectable cloth of punditry, recently given greater credence by the unquestioning media and gullible public.

      The Rev David Robertson has been talking shite on the internet for as long as it has existed. Creationist, unionist, doesn’t like Catholics, homosexuals, or science. All the good stuff. Our gain is Australia’s loss.

    45. galamcennalath says:

      Craig P says:

      Currently the UK Parliament is run by Eton millionaires.

      The fact that the social elite can wield so much power is bad, but WM’s badness involves so much more.

      Unelected Lords, reserved seats for clergy, isn’t democracy. But the thing which annoys me most is the way losers always win. The dreadful FPTP system (used in few other countries) allows power to be grabbed by minories, every time. So not only do you have a ruling party run by elites, you have the disgraceful situation that most voters rejected them.

      The last time any PM and party actually won a WM election by getting more than half the votes was Stanley Baldwin in 1935. He was a product of Harrow, so even though ‘a winner’ he was still a privately educated member of the elites.

      On which planet is WM a democratic institution? Certainly not this one!

    46. Capella says:

      Emergency over on Stu’s twitter. The emergency kitten has been hit by a car. Hope kitty recovers but meantime expect Stu to be preoccupied.

    47. Hamish100 says:

      Ian probably got more right than Prince Wullie to be King.

      Arise Hamish 1st!

    48. Robert Louis says:

      Big jock at 1104am,

      Absolutely. The English parliament and rulers merely changed the rules of who their king/queen was whenever it suited them. The nonsense that the lineage goes back so far is patent nonsense. Of course they are all related, and so iti s across Europe and in the past Russia. It was ALL about religion, all the way back for England. When all the Stuarts were catholics, and who had a clear rightful claim to both the Scottish AND English crowns, they just changed the rules again to suit.

      The day Lizzie saxe coburg puts the Scottish crown on her head FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, will be the day she can even remotely claim to be Queen of Scots. All she has in London are English crowns. She is an English monarch, and they are quite welcome to her, and all her ‘hingers-oan’.

      So far as I am concerned she should stick to sittin in London palaces being a good wee queenie to her subservient English subjects. An irrelevancy to Scotland.

    49. Robert Louis says:

      Just a point. Why don’t the Scottish Government just go ahead and open one of these drug rooms they want. let the Home Office forcibly shut it down. Put the ball in their court, instead of meekly begging permssion from these unelected lying b***tard Tories in London.

    50. call me dave says:

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/

      SUNDAY, JUNE 30, 2019
      52% of Scots demand an early independence referendum in landmark Panelbase poll, as Tory myth dies

    51. James westland says:

      David Robertson has claimed he supports Indy. He was good friends with Gordon Wilson. Recently he claimed to have joined the SDP. It was on his blog. Fervent Brexiteer as well. Used to read a lot of his stuff. Absolutely no time for him now.

    52. kapelmeister says:

      Britnat Labour like to think history only began with Keir Hardie. Although they can’t spell his name properly……or indeed show much accurate knowledge of what he stood for.

    53. Petra says:

      O/T

      Joanna Cherry:- ”Scots back #Indyref2 lose faith in Union “It seems that the days when unionists could claim with confidence that Scots do not want another independence referendum any time soon may have come to an end,” said Prof Sir John Curtice.”

      https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1145222446582312960

    54. kapelmeister says:

      Jenny Marra does think a legitimate parliament has lords and lairds. Lord McConnell, Lesley Laird, Lord Forsyth etc etc. All thinking Westminster can take Scotland out the EU and forbid indyref2.

    55. Cubby says:

      Sunday Politics Scotland

      At the very end of the show Brewer asks Margaret Curran ex Labour MP but still very much British Labour in Scotland the big question they will all have to confront sooner or later.

      “Would you rather live in an independent Scotland that was part of the European Union OR a United Kingdom that had left the European Union with no deal?”

      Curran just prattles on and on without answering the question. Drags it out so long that there is no time to put the question to the other guest Kevin Pringle ex SNP advisor.

      Curran like Marra made from the Britnat Labour mold. A mold that is about to be consigned to history. No more low flying Labour jimmies thank you very much in Scotland.

      Well all you Britnats will have to make up your mind pretty soon IMO.

    56. galamcennalath says:

      call me dave says:

      52% of Scots demand an early independence referendum in landmark Panelbase poll, as Tory myth dies

      “Majority of Scots don’t want IndyRef2” … died some time ago.

      “Majority of Scots don’t want an early IndyRef2” … dead too now.

      “Majority of Scots don’t want Indy” … about to die.

      However, the BritNats and Tories in particular are quite happy to lie! “No mandate”, they have begun chanting. When did facts and figure ever curb BritNat excesses?!

      These milestones are really important, though. It means Indy, it’s followers, the procedures to achieve it, can’t be dismissed so easily. When it becomes the clear will of the Scots, we enter a new phase.

    57. Undeadshuan says:

      Jeremy hunt would look business owners in the eye and say brexit was worth their business going bust.

      The tories really are off their heads now.

      He also accepted that no deal would not be popular in Scotland.

      http://archive.is/jn9cH

      Will he also look the projected hundreds of thousands unemployed in the eye?

      If he does it may resemble a scene in walking dead where the thosands of zombies tear a character to death.

    58. Cubby says:

      Galamcennalath@1.45pm

      I forecast it won’t be too long before the Britnats are saying a poll showing 52% in favour of a second independence referendum is not decisive. Ignoring of course the fact that the same people think 52% in favour of leaving the EU is the will of the people.

    59. Dr Jim says:

      If the Sunday Times is saying it then the likelyhood is the numbers are far higher

      As we speak the internet is filling up with the usual flat earther suspects who are part of the R….. till I die zoomers who are realising they’re in the minority now and they’re very very cross indeed

      The phrase will of the people is taking on a different meaning now

    60. call me dave says:

      Ruthie and Mundell not proffering much for a wee while.
      Waiting on the next PM to play the ‘nine of diamonds’ maybe.

      PS:
      Funny thing I was thinking today. Connelly, Lulu and Paul McCartney all suddenly in the news and gossip in the last week or two. Hairs on neck tingling slightly. 🙁

    61. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 30 June, 2019 at 1:04 pm:

      ” … Why don’t the Scottish Government just go ahead and open one of these drug rooms they want. let the Home Office forcibly shut it down. Put the ball in their court, instead of meekly begging permssion from these unelected lying b***tard Tories in London.”

      Well, Robert Louis, I’d have thought most folks could have worked that one out for themselves. It’s hardly rocket science. I’ve sat here quietly reading all the claptrap about why the FM, SG and SNP are so very BAAAAAAAD! and wondered why the anti-FM/SG/SNP lot haven’t been challenged by many more wingers but it really hasn’t happened yet.

      The very obvious reason all along is staring people in the face. It is all very well, (and so easy to do), running down the FM/SG and SNP but whatever they do it is plain it would be counter productive if their actions didn’t carry the majority of the electorate with them.

      The independence thing is very obviously finely balanced, and it could swing either way according to how the electorate perceive things.

      By the SMSM reports, the balance is currently still slightly biased towards the no side. What then is the point in doing anything whatsoever that might swing the balance more towards the unionist side?

      Unless the SNP are very certain they are carrying the majority of the electorate along with them it would be stupid to take rash actions. Now I keep myself aware of what is going on and I personally have heard people say, “No one forces junkies to take drugs. It is their own fault and the money and efforts should be used to help those who need help through no fault of their own”. Often this is followed up with an example or examples of what the speaker considers more deserving causes.

      So just consider the reaction right across the country if Nicola announced that the Union was instantly over and over 50% of the electorate thought otherwise?

      No matter what the SG does they must be certain to carry the electorate along with them or there would be an instant and opposing movement against independence.

      Now before jumping down my throat the idea that drug abuse is peoples own fault is not my opinion but is an opinion I’ve heard a lot more than once.

      There you have the reason Nicola and the SG don’t take rash chances. Independence is such a close thing to call that the slightest mistake could be a disaster. It did, after all end the political career of the last guy who tried it

      Take the people with you or fail is obvious and the ones you need to take with you are the undecided and those who oppose independence. Yet here on Wings we have people claiming to by for independence running down our only hope for independence and thus influencing waverers who read Wings.

    62. gus1940 says:

      Boris says ‘The UK is loved and admired around the world’.

      Aye Right – How deluded can a person get?

    63. Ottomanboi says:

      Some people maintain that political evolution is better than revolution.
      We’ve all seen how good evolution has been to the Scottish and English ‘ruling classes’, haven’t we?

    64. Doug says:

      I see the Rev’s article is “most read” on the NewsNow website.

      https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/06/52-of-scots-demand-early-independence.html#comment-form

    65. Doug says:

      https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/UK/Government+&+Politics?type=ln

      Was what I meant to post, although scotgoespop article is good too.

    66. Giving Goose says:

      Cubby

      Margaret Curran will provide a clear answer when she is instructed to do so.
      The instructions will come from her bosses in the Tory Party in London.

    67. Heaver says:

      That WeeFree rev’s voice tho. I heard him and thought I don’t like your tone. Called it. Towards the end realised I was hearing the tones of thoroughly unscrupulous salesman going through his long rehearsed lies.

      He’s either been rumbled and kicked out or he spots an opportunity for personal enrichment in oz. A worthless parasite wherever he is.

    68. Lou Nisbet says:

      RE James F. McIntosh says: Hollyrood – I see that you even think they spell the name of our own pariament incorrectly. It is spelt HOLYrood and pronounced AS IT IS SPELT Holy Rood – as in the Holy Rood of history. You cannot be blamed though as even the absolute numpty MSPs INSIST on using the propaganda issued from the BBC to pronounce it hollyrood. They really should read the history of the King’s park and stop repeating the BBC’s rubbish.

      The irony of repeating the name of their own house incorrectly due to the BBC’s propaganda is pathetic.

    69. Republicofscotland says:

      Alas the Scottish branch office of London Labour MSP’s have, and will say just about anything to gain their failing branch office some sort of kudos from the Scottish public.

      A public, who have and will continue to see right through their perpetual b#llshit. Marra, I doubt has had her Damascus moment, frankly I doubt she ever will.

    70. Petra says:

      Sitting around 50% support for Independence now with the Unionists filling their incontinence pads to the point that you can smell their fear from here.

      Just wait until a date is confirmed and it will be all systems go with the SNP sending out their leaflet entitled ‘An Independent Scotland: Household Guide’ to every home in Scotland (2.4 million); Stu’s wee Blue Book going out to a million households; both of which will totally dispel, shred, the ”too wee, poor and stupid” myth, SIC’s campaign; Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp’s ambassadors taking to the halls / streets; AUOB marches (where we should all carry informative placards) and of course many other brilliant politicians / key activists doing great work around the country, too many to mention on here, plus thousands of us of course giving 100% of our time and energy to achieve our aim. There’ll be no stopping us this time around especially as their scaremongering list from 2014 has been totally depleted and there’s much worse to come on the Westminster / Brexit front.

      More than anything a great big thank you to Nicola Sturgeon, our FM, for making it all possible. Walking on eggshells, holding her nerve and through behaving like an esteemed world leader she’s played an absolute blinder.

      …………………………

      O/T

      ‘Ex-diplomat who wrote Article 50 issues veiled criticism of Hunt’s FM snub.’

      ‘A fomer leading UK diplomat has criticised Jeremy Hunt for deciding to block Foreign Office support for the First Minister on overseas visits. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard pointed out to The National that embassies serve the whole of the UK “irrespective of party politics and policies”. He made the comments when asked for his views on the Foreign Secretary’s decision this week to withhold logistical assistance to Nicola Sturgeon when she travelled abroad in her role as First Minister.”..

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17735438.jeremy-hunt-slammed-for-cutting-support-for-first-ministers-trips/?c=3zuyw7

    71. galamcennalath says:

      Petra says:

      … criticised Jeremy Hunt for deciding to block Foreign Office support for the First Minister …. embassies serve the whole of the UK

      Good point. Who else does he plan to deny embassy assistance to? We all pay for it, we all expect it. Nicola is just as entitled to help as anyone else.

      Union of equals, when Scots are being treated as second class like this. And, we are on the verge of clarity that Nicola promoting Indy is the majority position of Scots.

      Still, the more shaky ground the BritNats stand on, the better.

    72. Arthur Thomson says:

      Like every other genuine supporter of independence, I get quite extremely angry at the lies and distortions put out by the British. Similarly, I find it extremely difficult to have any patience for people who identify as Scots but are afflicted with the cringe. But once the red mist clears I look in wonder at how far we have come despite facing a tsunami of British propaganda and barely concealed hatred.

      Scotland has been subjugated for generations and its people have been been systematically told lies about the intrinsic inferiority of their culture relative to their superior neighbours. The fact that we share an island with these neighbours has exacerbated our predicament – as the man said, it has been like sharing a bed with an elephant. Little wonder that our task of freeing ourselves and persuading our peers to muster the courage to strike out into the world together has been so mammoth.

      Let’s not fall into the trap of reinforcing the British lie of inferiority by concluding that we are less than other small countries whose circumstances have been radically different to ours. We have been and are up against huge odds but we are moving inexorably in the right direction.

      Ultimately, I believe that it will be the high level of education and civilisation in Scottish culture that is going to ensure our success. It is hugely frustrating that the pace of positive change isn’t faster but when Scotland becomes independent again it has to be the informed and considered choice of the majority of its citizens – and it must be entered into freely and without undue pressure, unlike happened to the Scots who were pressured into a despicable ‘union’ that they didn’t want.

      Let’s just back off a little and enjoy the progress we are making. The British can’t help but show openly their conceit and contempt for everyone else. Their idiotic performance of ‘Brexit’ is exposing them for the ‘have beens’ that they are. And there is much more to come that will make their Emporers clothes disappear in the eyes of those Scots who up until now were reluctantly convinced by their claims of superiority.

      We are winning.

    73. Petra says:

      Letter in the National from Crìsdean Mac Fhearghais, Prestonfield, Dùn Eideann

      ‘Look to Iceland for an example of a well-run small country.’

      ”I have been reading the stuff in The National and online about the Jeremy Vine programme and could Scotland survive on it’s own? (Vine criticised as guests take aim at Scotland, The National, June 27).

      This is something I hear repeatedly: “too wee, too poor”. I get sick if it! I lived in Iceland in the 1980s – before it ventured into the financial world. It had few resources – basically just fish. They were surviving perfectly well, maintaining their identity, language, heritage and say over their own future. They had no-one living in dire poverty or on the streets and there’s no real sense of “class”.

      Iceland only got independence from Denmark in 1944. I never heard one single Icelandic person say they wanted to be part of Denmark again.

      When I came back to the UK – to London – I was immediately hit by people living on the streets and people begging, things you never see in Iceland. And the place just seemed to reek of class.

      It’s not something you can put your finger on, but when living in a society without it, to be suddenly surrounded by it, it reeks. Inequality just seemed to ooze out of the environment.

      And so when people say we’re too wee and too small, I think, after my experience of living in Iceland, “no we’re not, we’re pouring with wealth and potential compared to Iceland. The only thing too wee and small is our imagination and courage.”

      Open your minds, have courage, take the leap to freedom and hope. Open our chances and future, don’t close them in fear and lack of aspiration. We as a country can do it – we just need the courage and faith!”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17738013.look-to-iceland-for-an-example-of-a-well-run-small-country/

      ………………………………..

      ‘Iceland at 100: The benefits of independence.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17269020.iceland-at-100-the-benefits-of-independence/

    74. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jenny Marra: trained as a town planner, practices as a carpetbagger.

    75. Shug says:

      During the week michael portillo said labours problem in scotland was any big thinkers they had wanted to stay in westminster and thet had a bunch of nobodies
      Ha ha sounds like he has a point and she hasjust proved it

    76. Abulhaq says:

      @Lou Nisbet
      Indeed it is Holy Rood from a possible Scots form Halé Ruid ie Holy Cross the dedication of the much knocked about Augustinian kirk adjoining Holyrood palace.
      Holyrood and ‘Hollyrood’ sic are both anglicisations.
      ‘Administrative’ independence is merely the first step on a long road to reclaiming Scots culture from ubiquitous anglicising influences.

    77. Calum McKay says:

      Brian Wilson?

      Shurely shum mishtake?

    78. James F. McIntosh says:

      Sorry for the spelling mistakes Lou Nisbet and I do not think it’s all the SNPs fault but I do worry about them implying that it is only by the UK gov.taking us out of EU that we have a mandate for indy ref 2 when there are other legit reasons for it also.

    79. Breeks says:

      “So, to my mind, the Scottish Parliament I sit in, is the first proper Democratic Parliament in Scotland”.

      Ok Jenny Marra, let’s say you’re half way there. Please go on to codify where, and how, Scotland’s popular sovereignty fits in to your perception.

      If Scotland’s people are Sovereign, and we as you say, have a “proper” Democratic Parliament, then why isn’t the will of that Parliament respected as the sovereign will of the people? Do you thus contend we are not sovereign? Westminster would have it so. Michel Barnier saw it that way, as Scotland’s voice was excluded from Brexit negotiations.

      What authority does Westminster dare to assume, to interfere with, nevermind overrule, Scotland’s decision to stay in Europe? What actual point of origin does such power have?

      By similar token, what authority do Unionists have in seeking to deny Scotland the essential access of a sovereign people to it’s own electoral process via democratic referendum or election? Would you really deem it a success to imprison that Sovereignty by gagging it’s right to formulate an opinion? Ms Marra, that’s neither democratic nor constitutional. It is your despotism that I would remove from power.

      How can a sovereign democracy function, when there are those who would deny the people their democracy, and at the same time, stand back in indolence while that population is indoctrinated by propagandists pushing an alien narrative from a third country, while Scotland’s own indigenous broadcasting is suppressed? Ms Marra, that’s neither democratic nor constitutional.

      Scotland will ONLY begin to have a proper Democratic Parliament once Scotland is Independent, and the delegation of our popular sovereignty is properly codified in Constitutional terms, whereby Scotland’s elected government understands that our Government’s will is the lesser power, the lower authority, and the Constitutional inferior to the will of Scotland’s sovereign people. No exceptions.

      So, to my mind, that means Scotland’s Sovereignty cannot be lent or delegated to a third party such as Westminster. Not by any Lord, Laird or Monarch. The commodity is never, was never, theirs to dispose of. The Union professes to have done a thing that cannot be done, and the United Kingdom merely survives because the well cultivated fiction is believed above the obstinate and inconvenient truth.

      If there are Scots willing to surrender their sovereignty to a foreign power, then let them do it, and lose their sovereignty and be damned by their own voluntary forfeiture, and no longer be considered constitutionally Scottish, but decreed to have abdicated their definitive birthright… A monarch can abdicate their crown, but not the sovereignty of their position. Perhaps we should decree a Scot who would abdicate their sovereignty can readily do so, but not affect the sovereignty of Scotland. To quote one of the Founding Fathers of the United States who was instrumental in ending British rule, Samual Adams…

      “If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

    80. Bobp says:

      Dr jim 9.49am. I reckon that 18% will be split between the foaming mouth football stadium lot and the daily heil retirees.

    81. Footsoldier says:

      Robert Peffers 2.27pm “the independence thing is finely balanced”.

      Correct and therein is the crux of the matter and the main problem.

      In Norway 1905, 99.5% voted in favour of dissolution with Sweden

    82. galamcennalath says:

      Bobp says:

      18% will be split between the foaming mouth football stadium lot and the daily heil retirees.

      I do sometimes wonder about how people really feel.

      When asked Y/N folks will feel, things like … ‘no yet’, ‘maybe some day’, ‘too risky’, ‘no guarantees’, etc etc.. Add to this the reality that most folks get on with their lives and don’t really think deeply about politics between votes … and even then, some don’t engage.

      Turn the question around, as above, and you see a quite different picture.

      I have always thought ‘British forever’ types are little more than a quarter, tops. The other three quarters are keen, or could be persuaded. I also believe that once Indy has been achieved only a small minority will hark back to the old UK days. Once we are out, we will never go back in, no one ever does.

      In the 2011 census (and a lot has changed since then!) ….

      62% identified as ‘Scottish only’
      18% identified as ‘Scottish’ and ‘British’
      8% identified as ‘British only’

      … proving the same sort of percentage feel in some part British. What percentage now feel Scottish only? Must be higher that the 2011 62%. Why would you feel no affinity to the UK and not vote Yes – if circumstances seemed right?

      25%, perhaps 30%, is a recurring ‘British’ to some extent figure.

    83. Footsoldier says:

      We need an election to test the market and who knows, perhaps one will arise quite soon at Westminster when we will have to go for broke.

    84. galamcennalath says:

      Footsoldier says:

      “the independence thing is finely balanced”.

      Correct and therein is the crux of the matter and the main problem.

      In Norway 1905, 99.5% voted in favour of dissolution with Sweden

      The political basis for Irish independence was the 1918 general election. It isn’t easy to get an exact figure because not all constituencies voted. FPTP made it look much more.

      Sinn Féin 46.88% independence
      Irish Unionist 25.33% UK
      Irish Parliamentary 21.75% devolution
      Labour Unionist 2.98% UK
      Belfast Labour 1.20% UK
      Independent Unionist 0.94% UK
      Independent Nationalist 0.81% independence

      I read somewhere that if there had been a straight Y/N vote, it would have been no more than 60something%. By no means like Norway!

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_Irish_general_election

    85. Ottomanboi says:

      The SNP gov has had its fingers rightly rapped over that trans stuff. A lesson for politicians to keep their grubby, meddling hands out of the electorate’s pants.
      SNP focus, focus, focus….

    86. jfngw says:

      Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson anoints himself ‘First Lord of the Union’, he will take up this role after his mighty quest to defeat Neptune and returns with the spoil of conquest.

      Here he is at the latest Conservative rally

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmum3glL1DA

    87. Hamish100 says:

      With it really 50/50 in the polls the undecided will win us through.

      More will vote for Positvie parties I believe offering something new and dynamic, they will tend to be ex- labour leaning. Labour has abandoned them. Lib dem remainers will have to decide on which Union they want. Younger pro Eu.

      We must engage once again with those persons who shrug their shoulders or are dissatisfied with the current UK set up and all Brexit entails.

      The new voters who were 10 in 2014 – but are optimistic and have the world ahead of them. They are pro European.

      They see a right wing elitist group running Westminster who don’t give a fig over this country.

      Hope the wee book is at the printers , almost.

    88. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 30 June, 2019 at 6:02 pm:

      ” … The SNP gov has had its fingers rightly rapped over that trans stuff. A lesson for politicians to keep their grubby, meddling hands out of the electorate’s pants.
      SNP focus, focus, focus… “

      I was expecting more of the anti-SNP mob before this, Ottomanboi, but why not take your own advice and focus?

      It doesn’t take much thought to realise what happened in that little episode but, of course, the anti-SNP mob weren’t thinking just grasping at straws as usual.

      It was plain to anyone with the power of thought what was happening. The SG called for consultation and waited for results. So the people who were all over the media, (mainly the internet), causing all sorts of bother, (remember the photo on Wings with them armed with axes and baseball bats), answered the call for consultation and most others, often because they knew nothing about the subject, did not reply.

      The SG had nothing else to go on except for those who answered the call for consultations and that was why the seemed to be just accepting the views of those who engaged in the consultation.

      At which point there was the backlash from those who had not taken part in the consultation and they kicked up hell with the SG and SNP, claiming that women’s rights were being lost.

      Thing is they should have been telling the consultation their, (very real), fears. Which is why there was a delay to consider these late calls that should have been submitted to the consultation. So lessons to be learned all round. So, Ottomanboi, why are you attempting to stir things back up again – what dog is it you have in the fight?

    89. geeo says:

      James F McIntosh@4.50pm

      The SNP have never implied that, you think that, and are projecting.

    90. North chiel says:

      “Petra @0358 pm” another fine post and couldn’t agree more with the comments as regards our
      First minister “ walking on egg shells, holding her nerve & behaving like an esteemed world leader “ she certainly is “ playing a blinder” and she will need to continue to do so especially if Bojo wins the leadership election . His recent “ rants” against the Scottish people and independence indicates to me that he is trying to “ bait” the independence movement . Under his premiership , make no mistake he will be looking for ANY excuse to thwart Independence including and notwithstanding declaring a “ state of emergency “upon Brexit and he will be looking in particular for any sign of civil disobedience or strife in our country to impose direct rule/ suspend Holyrood to further achieve his constitutional aims . The state controlled media outlets will dutifully “ play their part” and our FM must continue to remain cool calm and collected over the coming months . Hopefully she will continue also to build international support going forward and if Bojo ( or Hunt) proceed with an acrimonious Brexit , support for an Independent Scotland should incrementally increase. I can think of no better person to be “ at the helm” if we meet “ stormy waters “ than our current FM .

    91. geeo says:

      Well said North Cheil (and Petra, again).

    92. frogesque says:

      # Hamish100: 6.30

      Not really up to speed on polls. Does this latest one include 16/17 yr olds?

    93. Derek Rogers says:

      Just phoned up the Co-operative Bank to give them my contact details. My email address ending in .scot not recognised – “NEEDS A COUNTRY CODE!” My word, they Dissolved that Union quickly! That’s me out of their clutches.

      Can somebody tweet this to them?

    94. frogesque says:

      @ottamanboi :6.02

      Made the same point a while back.

      All this trans, he/she/it baloney is a fight the SNP couldn’t possibly win and was far better left until after Indy. Its a bloody bear pit.

    95. Cubby says:

      Jeremy Hunt says on the Marr show he will NEVER allow the break up of the UK Union.

      So if Scotland votes for the termination of the Treaty of Union 1706/7 Hunt says if he was Prime Minister he would NEVER allow it. The Hotel California precious Union. The one you can check in to but never leave.

      That folks is your modern version of a Britnat Tory DICTATOR. In the same interview he has the cheek to prattle on about Westminster’s great democracy and how it is respected throughout the world. The parliament with unelected Lords and clergy but only clergy from one church – Church of England.

      The UK Union is no Union it is a prison and we need our own version of the Great Escape.

    96. Dr Jim says:

      Captain Boris le Piffle Johnson has appointed Commander Jacob Rees Data as his Number 1 to steady the good ship British Enterprise

      It’s five year mission is to boldly go and crap up everything in the UK while picking a fight with the nasty foreigners from another Union

      The blue painted Scots from far point north have liased with the UN and EU federation of countries and will join in a new alliance to separate and ignore them

    97. Dr Jim says:

      I keep writing this The Smith Commission 27 November 2015

    98. Iain mhor says:

      @frogesque 7:57

      Here’s the wiki link to most of the mainstream, post 2014, Indy polls (and a direct link to the panelbase poll data) Appears 16-17yr olds were included (notes on each poll in the list usually indicate if they are excluded) That Sunday Times/Panelbase poll does include a 16-34 age category in the tables.
      I haven’t drilled down all the data to see if the the actual numbers for each age group are included – just click the relevent links and see what you can find.

      All tables summary:

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

      Dirrct link to Panelbase poll (pdf from above link)

      https://www.drg.global/wp-content/uploads/ST-Tables-for-publication-200619.pdf

    99. Dr Jim says:

      I keep writing this: The Smith Commission 27 November 2014

      *It is agreed that nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an Independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose*

      They’ve already agreed to Scotland having a referendum whenever it wants, so this denial of a section 30 is Pish Tosh and Hogwash

    100. Dr Jim says:

      Sorry about the 8:26pm entry wrong date and it just zoomed on
      mistake mistake mistake

    101. Bill Hume says:

      Completly off topic….I’ve just bought a flagpole.
      It comes with a Union Jack…that’s going straight in the bin.
      Now, what should I fly from it?
      Be prepared fellow wingers, because things are going to move rather rapidly in the near future.

    102. Dr Jim says:

      Scottish womens football has just taken off now England want to end it at the 2020 olympics by making it GB womens football but as Phil Neville stated *England led* and we know what that means

      Don’t do it Scotland’s women, you’re not second class people

      Tell the SFA where to stick this

    103. twathater says:

      liebour appear to think that there has not been an awakening in the Scots attitude towards politics and politicians ,so they feel , mistakenly for them that they can continue with the same rhetoric that allowed them control over Scotland for decades .

      Unfortunately for them the majority of Scots had the temerity to elect the SNP in to government and consequently over the past 12 years the SNP SG have shown and highlighted just what effectively constitutes good governance and in doing so have also highlighted just how poorly served Scotland and it’s people have been served by liebour north and south

      There are still some liebour diehard voters and the question has to be asked just what is it that makes these people believe that /1 liebour have put the interests of Scots at the forefront of their policies when Scotland has been lied to , denigrated and demonised , as in the McCrone report ,the theft of 6,000 square miles of seaboard , and patronisingly referred to as subsidy junkies , just what is it that makes these people believe that this behaviour by their politicians makes them fit to govern Scotland , and /2 do these liebour diehard voters believe that their politicos have changed , after the election of 56 SNP MP’s and the decimation of liebour in Scotland they were ALL so contrite PROMISING that they had learned their lesson and would never again take the people of Scotland for granted

      Yet daily and constantly we have the few liebour elected politicians , Sweeney and co. continuing with their lies and promises to Scots , shipbuilding ,abstaining on welfare cuts , continuing austerity , and refusing to protect Scotland from being wrenched out of the EU that Scots voted to remain in

      So I ask in all sincerity to any liebour voters or politicos reading wings ( we know there are plenty ) just why should ANY Scot vote for a party or people that obviously will not protect the people of Scotland or Scotland’s resources

    104. galamcennalath says:

      Bill Hume says:

      what should I fly from it?

      I fly a Saltire from mine. I have a Saltire over printed with YES ready to go.

      I just bought an EU flag which I will be flying over the summer, probably more often than the Saltire, but of course that depends on events . 😉

      I have thought of adding a Senyera estelada Catalan flag to my collection. I haven’t because … well … we have our own fight to win first. After Indy I may get one!

      I have learnt from experience it’s not worth buying too cheap a flag because they all fray eventually, but cheap ones very quickly. Also, I now always put a strip of anti fray down the edge. It’s almost invisible netting which prefers the edge ‘flicking” in the wind continually. Flags last much longer and aren’t so noisy.

      I admire the way the American like to fly their national flag on their houses, Scots need to follow this habit.

    105. galamcennalath says:

      @Bill Hume

      PS I wouldn’t fly a Lion Rampart. Yes, it’s thoroughly Scottish, but has royal associations. That’s just a personal decision. I see LRs on other folks’ poles.

    106. Petra says:

      Professor John Robertson:- ‘Two Tory MSP’s to share the brass neck award.’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/06/29/two-tory-msps-to-share-brass-neck-award/

      And the rest:-

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com

    107. robertknight says:

      The “Lords and Lairds” no doubt behaved in the same manner in the Parliament of Scotland back then, as Labour MSPs behave in the Scottish Parliament now…

      Ready to sell Scotland out at the drop of a hat.

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Peffers
      The consultation exercise re self-ID was deficient on a number of levels and needs criminal examination, IMHO. You clearly don’t understand the self-ID debate but are determined to re-wright history. Gonna stop melding in things you clearly lack knowledge of?

    109. boris says:

      The ISRS was founded in 2008 by former “New Labour” Defence Secretary, John Reid.

      Reid was a key Blair ally in the run-up to the Iraq war deployment of British forces to Afganistan and earned the reputation as Blair’s ‘enforcer’.

      He was appointed Home Secretary following Robin Cook’s resignation to ensure few others would follow suit.

      Reid was known in Whitehall as ‘Minister for Newsnight’ for his skill in pushing the Bush/Blair line in media appearances.

      The invasion of Iraq may well be remembered as ‘Blair’s war’, and not without some justification.

      But there are many people who bear a great deal of responsibility for that criminal act. John Reid is one of them.

      https://caltonjock.com/2019/06/30/a-peek-behind-the-curtains-of-the-uk-arms-trade-and-blairs-ongoing-role-in-its-activities-and-he-is-still-pursuing-corbyn-with-a-vengeance/

    110. If there is a General Election,

      it could be a choice of either Nigel Farage or Jo Swinson as the next Prime Minister,

      one a fanatical Brutish Nationalist zealot and the other Nigel Farage.

    111. Iain mhor says:

      Re:polls:
      As anyone who recollects my old posts may remember; I’ve been banging on about 47% being a key figure.
      Basically, I just maintained that 47% was the core No vote and when Yes gained parity, the shit would hit the fan. Leaving the decision hanging on around 6% of undecided voters. We reached that stage in April last year and importantly, it has held.

      The real “core vote” factor gets a bit more complicated, but that’s it in a nutshell. It’s to do with ‘floating votes from an undecided ‘pool’ where they tend to No. But it falls out that the actual ‘real hard core’ of No votes is less than the equivalent in Yes – they just consistently rake in a higher number from a ‘floating vote’ and top it off with more of the remaing “undecideds’

      Yes are sucking at that ‘floating vote’ and they are now pegging in Yes, hence the recent 47-47 parity. The question now is, how many of the undecideds would fall to Yes. Historically Yes only manages 1.5 of the approx 6% of “Undecideds”. That may have changed in our favour by even another 0.5 – in which case, getting around only *37,000 more undecideds brings things to bang on parity.
      (* Based on 1% of the 2014 total turnout)

      As for the sort of push to make Labour ‘extinct’ in Scotland – don’t forget a high percentage of Yes voters are Labour voters – that’s important. It would be nice if they all jumped ship, but wiping out Labour and/or having them switch to SNP is not as important as the Yes voters. It only has significance to returning eg an SNP majority at Holyrood, but those Labour Yes voters are still Yes.

    112. Ottomanboi says:

      The best use for flag poles, whether union jacked or X’d, is as a ‘perch’ for your favourite unionist.
      Unfortunately, some might actually like it, so choose candidate with care.
      Did Vlad the Impaler have this problem? May have a quick word when he flies round the neighbourhood on his night calls.

    113. Phronesis says:

      Scotland, the country, is leading by example in clean energy provision. Moving away from reliance on fossil fuels and fossilised WM parliamentary dominance are reasons enough for Scotland to be in control of all her economic levers as a small, independent global nation facing global challenges. An intelligent nation state casting off Johnson and his flaky global Britain outriders as they hurtle – lemming like – over the Brexit cliff edge.

      ‘Nation (Scotland) has to “export” surplus wind power to England and Northern Ireland as it generates enough clean energy in the first quarter to power 88% of Scottish households for a whole year’
      https://www.rechargenews.com/transition/1816256/scotland-gets-100-percent-of-its-electricity-from-renewables-in-q1-2019

      ‘At a time when tackling the climate crisis requires leadership and strong action from G20 countries, which account for 79% of global emissions, it is imperative that their governments transition away from all fossil fuels, including coal. Coal-fired power plants were the single largest contributor to the growth in global CO2 emissions in 2018, and continued G20 government support for coal is incompatible with achieving the aims of the Paris Agreement…Ending coal subsidies will bring environmental, social and economic benefits, including the setting of a level playing field for lower-cost clean energy’
      https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/resource-documents/12745.pdf

      ‘The problem facing Johnson and his global Britain outriders is that globalisation has stalled for over a decade. Donald Trump’s trade war with China ¬– and the risk that he also targets EU car exports – may even lead to trade disintegration (global trade falling as a proportion of global GDP). There could hardly be a more challenging environment for leaving the EU’s single market and customs union, and attempting to rebuild a trade policy from scratch…The chart also shows that the EU is the UK’s natural trade partner – Britain is a European country, after all. The EU has been successful in reducing internal barriers to trade. Trade costs between Germany, the UK and the EU are significantly lower than they are between those countries and the rest of the OECD’

      https://www.cer.eu/insights/now-worst-time-global-britain

    114. galamcennalath says:

      Petra says:

      WGD:- ‘Drowning out the Bruce.’

      I’m sure Paul’s right, he usually is IMO, that it’s a UK level commercial decision based on the size of England and profits to be made therein.

      That’s not to say there is no skullduggery concerning Scottish history around. I noticed this Wiki page the other day …

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Scottish_Wars

      ” The Anglo-Scottish Wars comprise the various battles which continued to be fought between the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland from the time of the Wars of Independence in the early 14th century “

      … but what of the wars prior to the late 13th invasion and occupation? Two Battles of Alnwick, for instance. Surely the wars between the independent kingdoms of Scotland and England in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries were Anglo Scottish Wars too?

      There seems to be an agenda here to say that Scotland was independent for just 400 years, not 800! There seems an attempt by whoever has edited / contributed to this page to suggest Scotland was not an independent nation and therefore must have been part of England. This nonsense would support English / British nationalist views of a 1000 year empire.

      Conspiracy or cock up? Always hard to tell.

    115. kapelmeister says:

      Behold The Right Honourable Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson MP, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, First Lord of the Treasury, Head of the Civil Service, High Heid Yin of the Union Unit, Architect of the Great Leap Backwards and Emperor of the Rogues.

    116. Dr Jim says:

      Watching the Britlish Sky news is hilarious as they attempt to describe Jeremy Hunt and Boris Johnson as different while at the same time both saying exactly the same thing which is Bugger Scotland it’s Brexit first to get the PM job then we’ll shout and threaten Scotland later

      Two men with one thing on their mind, how to work out the best strategy to become Prime Minister then Aah relax job done

    117. Jock McDonnell says:

      Why is the union so ‘precious’ – will somebody please ask the candidates why the union is so ‘precious’ to England ?
      What so many unionist voters don’t get is just how tied up our economy is with Scotland the Brand. So called strengthening of the apparently precious union is detrimental to Scotland’s economic interests. Who really is dumb enough to believe that Westminster will ever put Scotland’s interests at the top of the agenda ? At the conference table, who gives a toss about Scotland – nobody, because we are not in the room.

    118. KOF says:

      Just had a random thought, which is remarkably sort of ish on topic for this far down the comments section. The Scottish Parliament was reconvened 20 years ago, 1999. Obviously it didn’t exist during the years 1707 to 1999. The first documented Scottish parliament was at Kirkliston in 1235. So, we’re only sixteen years away from the 800th anniversary of the first Scottish Parliament. Mind you we’re also only eight years away from the 500th year/session (whatever one would call it) of the Scottish Parliament, if my sums are correct. Number of years since first parliament 784 minus number of years without (1707-1999) 292 = 492.

    119. Jock McDonnell says:

      KOF – we are also only 9 months or so away from the 700th anniversary of something very significant in our history & there is hee-haw being said or done about it.

    120. Liz g says:

      One of my lot is saying that one world has backed down and will now show the film.
      But infuriatingly he can’t remember where he heard it!
      So I don’t know how true it is!!

    121. Liz g says:

      Duh…
      Cine world

    122. Hamish100 says:

      Froqesque

      Sorry delay in replying. Most polls are based on 18+ interviewees.

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ottomanboi
      That one crossed the line, IMHO.

    124. Iain mhor says:

      @Hamish 100
      Of around 100 mainstream polls (members of the British Polling Council – BPC) conducted on the subject of Scottish independence since 2014, only 14 excluded 16-17yr olds. So not ‘most’. They have to be included because they get to vote on the matter.
      Though I’ll concede there may be alternative private polling and polling from non-BPC members, which may exceed those numbers. Mainstream polls in the UK on other topics, do exclude that demographic, because England – They are not relevant though and I have no figures for them.

    125. Golfnut says:

      @ Jock McDonnell.

      Probably one the most significant documents in history, the very foundation of Scots Constitutional law, and the document which allowed Lord Cooper to assert that
      ‘ the principal of Parliamentary Sovereignty is an English principal and one which is not recognised in Scots Constitutional law ‘.
      It was also accepted by the Papal court and there for international law.

      I think that’s enough clues.

    126. Cactus says:

      Good morning Wingers and Welcome to the second half of 2019!

      Well that was some first hauf eh?!

      Halloween’s comin’ up fast

    127. Cactus says:

      “Dissolve The Union, says Labour”

      We could always do it the Marra

      Mibbies we’ll do it today

    128. Cactus says:

      Remember, Halloween may come sooner than you think:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqVyois9mp4

      Hold tight

    129. Cactus says:

      Here’s a wee cracker ah came across, sounds like Einaudi playin’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RiqeTXiWgA (inst.)

      Here’s to…

    130. Cactus says:

      Yes July, let’s kick the 2nd half off, of 2019 to a flying start

      Or we’re gonna need these guys to save us all

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9We2XsVZfc

    131. Breeks says:

      galamcennalath says:
      30 June, 2019 at 9:05 pm
      @Bill Hume

      PS I wouldn’t fly a Lion Rampart. Yes, it’s thoroughly Scottish, but has royal associations. That’s just a personal decision. I see LRs on other folks’ poles.

      The flag is one of Scotland’s Crown Jewels. If the monarch does not warrant the accolade, if this prince shall leave these principles he hath so nobly pursued, and consent that we or our kingdom be subjected to the king or people of England, we will immediately endeavour to expel him, as our enemy and as the subverter both of his own and our rights, and we will make another king, who will defend our liberties: For so long as there shall but one hundred of us remain alive we will never give consent to subject ourselves to the dominion of the English. For it is not glory, it is not riches, neither is it honours, but it is liberty alone that we fight and contend for, which no honest man will lose but with his life.

      The flag is the baby, the royal house is merely the incumbent bath water.

      Scotland currently has a monarch which identifies with another country, an affliction just like that we have to suffer within half our population. Attitudes would be different if Scotland had a monarch with courage and backbone to stand up for Scotland. I believe there is great love and empathy for Mary, Queen of Scots, and for King Robert the Bruce. The lion rampart is their flag, and ours, much more than it is Elizabeth I’s.

      It is also however evidence; evidence which proves the existence of a Scottish Monarchy that is still recognised in UK heraldry and iconography. It is contemporary evidence that Scotland was not extinguished by the Union of 1707 as the BritNat Establishment would have the world believe.

      There is another aspect too… Scotland can fly the Lion Rampant, and celebrate the heraldic Unicorn of Scotland as unadulterated emblems of Scotland. Once the Union expires, England will have the Cross of St George and their three lions, but every other emblem of the UK and UK Monarchy which features either our Lion Rampart or Unicorn sinister, will be obsolete and superseded. Get the chisels out.

      When I was a little kid, I loved Robert the Bruce and his fightin’ flag with the red lion. It was just the coolest battle ensign imaginable. As I’ve gotten older and hopefully wiser, my affection of the Lion Rampant has receded as my appreciation of the saltire has grown stronger, but they are both legitimate emblems of Scotland, and both should be revered.

      The Monarchy itself is more awkward. I confess, I feel no affinity for this UK Monarchy and wouldn’t shed a tear if Scotland was rid of it, but at the same time, we’d be disrespecting our history, and potentially denying Scotland any future Robert the Bruce or Mary. If you want a parallel perspective, should the USA abandon it’s bald eagle iconography because Trump was a bad President? Of course not. The office is bigger than the individual.

    132. McBoxheid says:

      Cactus says:
      1 July, 2019 at 3:30 am

      Here’s a wee cracker ah came across, sounds like Einaudi playin’
      __________

      Sounds great. If your looking for music for your elevator.

      Sorry Cactus, but thats musak for insomniacs.

      You normally do so much better.

    133. McBoxheid says:

      Ludoviko, if he sounds like that he should stick to strings. Well, rope anyway. Pretty depressing stuff.

    134. Ken500 says:

      Labour are finished. The Tories are finished. Support for the SNP/Independence keeps on rising. An Indy Ref within two years that can be won, Everything to look forward. Not looking backwards with Labour ruining the economy.

      Get rid of Labour. Take the fight to the Tories the SNP will win. People in Scotland are fed up of the unionists ruining the economy, They could not make a bigger mess. What a complete shambles. Total incompetence, Just unbelievable.

      Thank goodness for the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland. What a difference. People can appreciate it, Trying to do the best with constant interference from Westminster imbeciles. For whom no one in Scotland votes. The Westminster incompetents want to ruin the world economy again. People in Scotland can stop them. Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Make the world a better place. Just vote for it and get another to vote as well. Then celebrate.

      Cineworld are reported to have backed down. They will show ‘Robert the Bruce’ A good commercial decision. Now the world can see it. It will be an international success. There is so much interest in Scottish history. Scottish philosopher thoughts and invention shaped the modern world, The Declaration at Arbroath, the Enlightenment etc. The Clearances a tragedy. A 40 million diaspora. An audience for Scottish film. The commitment to education. Scottish invention changed the world. Telecommunications led on to the internet. A vast array of success. Spectacular scenery. Appreciated worldwide. Hogmanay celebrated worldwide,

      China – Scotland a land of discovery and invention’.when the Premier came to Britain. He visited Scotland first by choice,

      US, NZ, Australia, Canada. Migrants from Scotland.. People from Scotland work all over the world.

      The Oil industry and technology, Scotland leads the way in renewables. Scotland is one of the best places in the world geographically for renewables. Leads the way.

    135. Ottomanboi says:

      @Ken500
      There is much potential in Scotland, however we need not just the political will but the imagination, skill and daring to realise it. Unionism is a straitjacket of the mind, throw it off, burn it and embrace the great adventure.

    136. Ken500 says:

      Why Marra is in a Scottish Parliament is a mystery. The unionists want to destroy it. She is supposed to be the list MSP for the NE but lives in Dundee. No one in the NE ever sees her. She has little to do but to cause trouble in the Parliament. The Parliament many in the Chamber want to be rid. They want to curtail the powers. They have lied and reneged on so many promises. A total disgrace. .

    137. Ken500 says:

      People in Scotland have great ambition. Scotland influences the world. Help build it not destroy it. Just vote for it.

    138. Dr Jim says:

      In a survey of 160.000 Tory members by St Mary’s University
      No Deal Brexit is the Number 1 priority by 66% and they have no interest in what happens with Scotland

      Professor Tim Day and his team of St Mary’s University who carried out the survey said that the average age of Tory member was 57 years but 4 out of 10 were over retirement age and 97% white from the South East of England but there are around 8.000 members in Scotland

      The professor also stated that the preferred option of candidate to be the next Prime Minister is Boris Johnson by some considerable distance and he couldn’t foresee that changing any time soon

    139. Golfnut says:

      @ Breeks.

      Well said, to many on here don’t or won’t understand the importance of the Crown in the coming battle with Westminster. The Crown is the proof positive of our very existence as a nation and Kingdom, that our power over that crown is absolute, that our Sovereignty is a living and breathing entity, though God knows we have forgotten that we do not permission from any person or Government to exercise it and that we can exercise that power over those in any elected office or are required to swear allegiance to the Crown.

    140. Ottomanboi says:

      The Unionists can take their ruritanian monarchy with them as they take the high road to oblivion.
      Clean sweep!

    141. Dr Jim says:

      The Unionists always need a new line a new story a new piece of rhetoric to chant and here’s today’s wee gem from the almighty Unionists

      Scotland won’t be Independent because post Brexit it’ll be too poor

      Remember when they told us we were to poor before Brexit but we’d be rich after Brexit, now they’re back to telling us we’ll be too poor again

      It’s the same story as the oil, there’s always plenty of it until Scotland mentions Independence then as if by magic it vanishes in a magicians puff of smoke and becomes worthless again

      Unionists will say and do anything to preserve their religion Oops! I mean way of life Oops! I mean Union
      The one thing Unionists have never managed to preserve are their brain cells, maybe they’re using the wrong kind of alcohol for the pickling

    142. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Breeks

      Very interesting post of yours ‘ 4.20am, it got me thinking.

      Ever since Jamie the Saxth shot the craw to London in 1603 the Crown in Scotland has been seen as somehow second rate to the Crown in England, a state of affairs which continues to this day.

      I suppose, being a “Baby Boomer,” I have been brought up to respect the current Queen of Scots and what she stands for. The Lady who currently holds that Office of State, I don’t suppose ever gives much thought to that particular job.

      No harm to her, but, she was privately-educated, the eldest daughter of the second son of the reigning monarch. Up until her 11th year, her prospects were probably of being married-off with the next decade, to a future Duke. Then her Uncle David went off the rails and her father was thrust into a job for which he was ill-prepared.

      The then Princess Elizabeth was then, apparently, taken over by her grandmother, Queen Mary, and taught how to be a Queen. I doubt if much attention was paid to teaching her the political and historic implications of her future role.

      I doubt if she gave much thought to her northern Kingdom, other than as a place to holiday.

      It is said, she has been a wonderful Queen, for me, she has kept her head down, done what she saw as her duty, but, in reality, if she had put as much into her official duties as she appears to have into her horses, maybe a few of the more-recent Prime Ministers could have done a better job.

      Her reign will end probably within the next decade, and many commentators suggest this will be a crisis point for the Monarchy. As one who has seen, up close, what a fine job her son, the Duke of Rothesay has done at Dumfries House, I am hopeful for his prospects as King.

      Unfortunately, like his ancestors his main duties will be London-centred. It may even be that, if not during Charles’ reign, which, because of his age when he ascends the throne will be short, but, more-likely during Williams’, with the likes of myself and the other older Scots – brought up to be British as much as Scots – dead or dying-off quickly, surely demands for at least a vote on whether the by then Independent Scotland remains a monarchy, in which sovereignty rests with the people, and the King or Queen is a figurehead, or becomes a Republic.

      If the decision is to remain a monarchy, the choice will then be: do we remain tied with the English Monarchy, or do we go our own way and offer the Crown of Scotland to whoever is currently head of the House of Stuart?

      I recall, some years back, when my old mate Tom Shields was running the Herald Diary, there were suggestions in The Diary, that HRH the Princess Royal, given how big a Scottish Rugby XV fan she is, as Patron of the SRU, takes up residence at Holyrood as “Guardian of Scotland,” a de facto Head of State for ceremonial occasions, using that old title.

      Such a suggestion has merit, should we choose to remain a Monarchy, better a real monarch than a Governor General, if the GG is some flunky whose job is in the gift of Buckingham Palace.

      If the decision is the Republic of Scotland, the question then becomes, does the leader of the governing political party then also become Head of State, as happens in the USA, or do we have a Head of State whose duties are largely ceremonial?

      I know the Irish, who have a largely-ceremonial President, have been remarkably lucky recently, with Mary Robinson, being followed by Mary McAleese and now Michael D Higgins, but, just as there are no guarantees we get a good hereditary King or Queen, well, it may be the office of State President is too-much for some successful candidate.

      However, whether a President – either with executive powers, or merely a ceremonial figurehead – a Monarch actually sitting in Edinburgh with King or Queen of Scots as their only job, or a royal appointee, perhaps even with the ancient title of “Guardian of Scotland” or “Great Steward of Scotland”, keeping the hot seat warm until the genuine King or Queen of Scots can give us the month or so of his/her time each year which the Scottish gig is deemed worthy of, away from the more-important job of being King or Queen of England, someone has to be the top banana in Scotland.

      However, while we should maybe giving some thought to this position, this ought not to divert us from the main job – getting out of this cursed Union and into the state of Independence, when we will have to address this and other issues. Yes, we think ahead, but, Independence has to be the only aim at the moment.

    143. call me dave says:

      It’s just a small film, not even made in Scotland and Robert the Bruce wasn’t even fighting for independence, he wanted the power of being king, says woman on shortbread this morning!

      Nothing to see here move along… 🙁

      I thought Scotland was an independent nation back in the 1300’s… Oh well!

      Anyhoo! Cineworld have changed their minds after over 4000 people protest and some bad publicity.

    144. Dr Jim says:

      Spider Bruce they called him then, Aye history eh, that was just before his fight with Rocky Balboa when the Scottish crown went to America and was won back for Ireland by Tom Cruise in that film Far and Away, only to be brought back to Scotland by Blackadder’s servant Baldrick who buried it somewhere in England so his ancestor could dig it up again

      That’s the real story of Scotland straight from the Brig o Doon library records

    145. galamcennalath says:

      call me dave says:

      Robert the Bruce wasn’t even fighting for independence …. says woman on shortbread

      I sense the BritNats are trying re write our history. As I suggested at 10:29pm, Wiki has been edited to give the impresssion Scotland only became independent in the 14thC. I suppose by extrapolation that means it was part of England before.

      I’ve never understood why the Wars of Independence are so named. It was about turfing out an occupying force and restoring independence, not creating it.

      There is a historical precedent, though. Spain had Guerra de la Independencia Española 1808-1814 when the French were ejected. That seems an equally odd choice of words. Liberation is the usual term applied.

    146. Lenny Hartley says:

      Socrates MacSporran Re Monarchy, i have no issue with retaining the Royal Title for historical reasons but it has to be a democratic choice every five years. And as per our laws can be sacked at anytime if we the people so decide, say a petition attracking 100,000 signatures followed by a vote in Parliament. Also purely Ceremonial , no executive powers.
      They will get well paid and a nice live in hoose tied to the job near the Parliament and some expenses for brasso and the like.

    147. Sunshine says:

      I just read the phrase Highland Clearance in a post further up the thread. Something irks me about the phrase ‘Highland Clearances’. I dont know about any of you, but it really seems a phrase that betrays the brutality and the reality of the decades long terror forced on people. Maybe ‘The Terror’, or ‘The Forced Deportations’, or something similar, would be more apt.
      Maybe the Highland Clearances is the correct phrase and always will be used, but I feel that it doesnt do the forced removal of our people justice.More should also be done at Scottish Government level to remind people of why the country is empty. Maybe even set aside a special commemorative day/holiday every year, for remembrance and vigilance, for the type of people we put into power.
      If it happened before, it can happen again.

    148. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      An interesting article from the Uni of Manchester, published in 2011, and featured on the iScot Twitter page. I’ve archived it. –

      “Franco-Scottish alliance against England one of longest in history”

      http://archive.is/c71Lr

    149. galamcennalath says:

      Sunshine says:

      Highland Clearances

      There were also Lowland Clearances in the name of improved agriculture. People lost their land and moved to the industrialising cities or abroad.

      The population of west coast Scotland was actually increased in the early 19thC to help fuel the kelp industry which produced potash for gunpowder. Then the wars with France ceased and recession set in, all these ‘extra’ people were ‘cleared’.

      And, we mustn’t forget the potato famine which hit Scotland in 1847. Huge numbers of people moved abroad then.

      In 1707 the population ratio of Scotland to England was 1:4. Over the next two and a half centuries Scots emigrated disproportionately.

      To my mind, it’s all part of the same asset stripping English imperial attitude. Yes, money flowed into Scotland from trade in slaves, sugar, and tobacco, but who benefited?

    150. geeo says:

      Swinson v Davey on Sky News.

      Deary me, predictably dumb.

      Sky doing questions from the public, and before they answer, i have told my wife what they are about to answer with.

      Right every time so far.

      Apparently, Scots cannot get a 2nd referendum is because they voted on a 600 page white paper and rejected it, and there was no white paper for brexit!!

      Jo Swinson at her thick as pigshit best.

      No appetite, Scots want to be in the uk and EU and that is the libdem position.

      Makes one wonder why we do not VOTE for this party we apparently all agree with !

      Actually spitting with venom at the very mention of the SNP. Ed Davey talking equal pish about it, but without the venom in his tone.

      Whats worse than a Britnat ?

      A Scottish Britnat.

    151. Welsh Sion says:

      What Charles Windsor has done for Cymru/Wales over the last 50 years since his Investiture with a faux ‘Principality’:

    152. geeo says:

      @socrates McSporran@9.34am

      Sorry, but as i read that post my skin was crawling with embarrassment that anyone could feel any sort of affinity for an accident of birth who was then declared as your better.

      Post indy i would personally be hoping we ditch royalty, but if the majority will of Scots is to keep a monarch, then it should be so, as THAT is exactly what independence gives us the freedom to CHOOSE to do.

      However, this, like everything else is a job for after we are independent.

      Until we are, it is irrelevent, ad a distraction.

    153. Dr Jim says:

      I suppose you could call them the Highland clearances if you lived in England because they started in the South of Scotland and just carried on up, of course according to self proclaimed BBC Scottish historian Neil Oliver everybody was delighted to be offered the choice between absolute poverty homelessness and murder, as he flicks his flowing locks and looks sideways into the nearest mirror while adjusting his wafting scarf in the wind before he heads off to a nearbye 5 star bothy for some ordinary common champers like wot we drank in the olden days

      I went to a *good school* that never taught Scottish history but my father was well educated on the subject and imparted what he knew to me and I learned the rest when I left school and got myself properly educated on my own country instead of reciting every English battle and date and outcome which of course was always victorious and that’s why England is superior to all mankind

      Funnily enough my mother who was born and bred English with very little education knew nothing of her own country’s history but she was convinced England should be in charge of the world

      The Queen and all that

    154. Scott says:

      Jo Swinson waste of space what a load of garbage she spouts.

    155. Golfnut says:

      @ Sunshine

      How about just plain ‘ ethnic cleansing ‘.

    156. Golfnut says:

      @ DR Jim.

      The Highland clearances continued right into the 20th century, within living memory. There was a woman giving a lecture, or should I say reliving her personal experiences, in Arran. Lenny Hartley might be able to help me out here because I’m not sure if it related to Arran or elsewhere.

    157. Dr Jim says:

      Jo Swinson :

      I’m sorry to say she replaced the excellent John Nicolson as MP in my constituency under a cloud of ferocious monstering of him personally (the old folk of East Dunbarton loved him until they found out he was *different*) and absolutely such massive spending that she was investigated by the Police but of course like all Britnats found not guilty

      I should also mention she didn’t even turn up in the constituency until the final week and most of the literature didn’t even have her on it, (there were more photos of Willie Rennie) because it was wall to wall SNP bad page after page with no policy input whatsoever and on one particular day I received four different leaflet drops,
      4!!? who pays for that?

      I have had accasion to speak with Jo Swinson and without bias I can tell you she is a fatuous career airhead in exactly the same mould as Kezia Dugdale, she will say and do anything to further her career, Oh as well as being one of the highest expences claiments in the British Parliament

      This woman claimed for tooth floss and tea spoons

    158. GrahamB says:

      Jo Swinson:
      One of my old pals taught her at Douglas Academy, Milngavie and described her as “lazy and devious” and “not particularly bright”. He also claims that she used her mother’s address in Milngavie on her electoral forms to make it look like she stayed locally rather than in far-off Wiltshire. Don’t know the truth about that and been unable to check it out but would not be surprised if true given the LibDems record on electoral ‘manipulation’.

    159. Ottomanboi says:

      Be wary of people in the EU or elsewhere described as ‘anglophile’. The Spitzenkandidat for Junkers job, the Dutchman Frans Timmermans is labelled such.
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglophile

    160. galamcennalath says:

      Golfnut says:

      the 20th century

      http://widmann.scot/wp-content/uploads/popgrowth1.png

      https://i.imgur.com/aSEv3xM.png

      Why did the population of resource rich Scotland flatline in the 20thC?

      My answer, because the UK has always been operated for the benefit of England, especially the SE. There never has been a Union. Classic imperial model which exists to channel wealth to the centre be it Ancient Rome, or 20thC Home Counties.

    161. GrahamB says:

      Dr Jim at 11:51
      We were unfortunately unable to come up from our constituency (Glasgow North) to help John Nicholson as Patrick Harvie had a wee ego-trip moment so we had extra work to do. We could also have helped Anne McLaughlan (sp?) in Glasgow North East so I hold Patrick Harvie responsible for dumping Swinson and Sweeny on us.

    162. Dr Jim says:

      @GrahamB 11:53 am

      It’s true, with her Lib Dem husband and children although she did own an expences paid for flat at one time in the area
      and complained about other political parties leafletting care homes and sheltered accomodation and got them excluded because Lib Dem council in Kirkintilloch at that time

      I myself was barred from leafletting in my own street after complaints from a Lib Dem supporter claimed I was creeping about scaring old people (42 houses in my street)

      I’m 70 years of age and have been living in my street for 6 years and everybody knows me as the politics SNP guy and are oddly unafraid of my creepy presence as they greet me every day by my first name and I there’s as we pass on our way to the shops

    163. McBoxheid says:

      geeo says:
      1 July, 2019 at 11:01 am

      @socrates McSporran@9.34am

      Sorry, but as i read that post my skin was crawling with embarrassment that anyone could feel any sort of affinity for an accident of birth who was then declared as your better.

      Post indy i would personally be hoping we ditch royalty, but if the majority will of Scots is to keep a monarch, then it should be so, as THAT is exactly what independence gives us the freedom to CHOOSE to do.

      However, this, like everything else is a job for after we are independent.

      Until we are, it is irrelevent, ad a distraction.
      ————-
      Well said geeo.

      That any man or woman, by right of birth, can be above others is absolutely abhorrent and ludicrous in this day and age.

      Why do we need a figurehead?

      Why not just a directly elected first minister leading a government of whom we have sovereignity over? I.e, no list MSP can lead the government. Only qualified people can become special advisors.

      We are a small nation. Not too small by any means, but we don’t really need the extra expence of an extra layer of government/leadership. We will have an extra gremium when we rejoin the EU, if Brexit comes before independence, that is our elected voice in Europe. We don’t want or need a House of Lords, where unelected troughers drain the national purse.

      In an independent Scotland, everyone should be equal. Everyone will be sovereign.

    164. call me dave says:

      Just a wee nod for the R34 airship anniversary May 1919 first across the Atlantic and…. back.
      On shortbread web site.

      I got Alcock and Brown June 1919 as the ‘first’ crossing when at school. Both hero’s, got a prize when they ditched in Ireland brave men too.

      A poster about a year ago on here mentioned it…news to me then
      us Scots are always last to know… 🙂

      PS:
      Boris and the Barnett formula in flux again.

      Cheery Jo Swinson on shortbread earlier… what’s she like?
      Vote her out when the time comes.

    165. Jack Murphy says:

      OT for anyone wishing to compare the newspaper headlines in England and Scotland.

      England:
      http://archive.is/lIxIY

      Scotland:
      http://archive.is/1gKTZ

    166. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re Clearances on Arran, it still continues to this day! Regarding article in National about clearances on Arran, got to remember the Museum is run mainly by Unionists but in all other regards they do a great job and its a fantastic wee Museum. If I remember correctly the promises make by the Duke of land in Canada were renaged on, they never got half the land they were promised, it was not the rich land they were told but very poor. Ethnic Cleansing takes many forms.

    167. Ghillie says:

      Boris Johnson saying that most down South would agree that scarping the Barnett Formula was a good idea just says it all.

      Echoes of ‘a pound spent in Croyden is worth more than a pound spent in Clydeside’.

    168. Robert Louis says:

      Jo Swinson the big fat Liberal Democrat LIAR on TV. She claims the SNP lost seats in 2017, so they have no mandate for indyref2, then despite it being pointed out that the SNP are the single largest political party in the Scottish Parliament and in Scotland, and the democratically elected government of Scotland, she still asserts that that STILL means they have no mandate. She is either stupid or a liar. I think she is both. A careerist gobsh*te.

      I just don’t know what to think about pseudo ‘scots’ like Jo Swinson, who, when interviewed up in Scotland puts on her strongest ‘scottishy’ accent, but when interviewed on the likes of SKY in London, puts on an exceptionally posh English accent. One of them is fake, and I think we all know which one. She pretends to her constituents that she lives in Scotland, but doesn’t.

      Oh and lets not forget her husband was the parliamentary private secretary to that other famous LIBDEM Liar, Nick Clegg, when he was deputy prime minister. The man who swore blind their would be no tuition fees, then promptly increased them in England, for the sake of his personal career.

      Here’s the truth though, the SNP are not only the biggest party in Holyrood, they are the democratically elected Scottish Government. Nicola Sturgeon was elected by voptes from every member of the Scottish parliament. The SNP also outnumber the MP’s of all other parties in Scotland by some margin. Indeed the SNP have more than twice as many MP’s (35) just from Scotland, than the lying LIbdems have from the entire UK (12). To state the SNP have no mandate is just a big fat lie, and Swinson knows it. Meanwhile I can count the Liberal Democrat MSPs on one hand. It is the Liberal Democrats who have no f***ing mandate for anything.

      Jo Swinson is a careerist fraud, who will say and vote for anything (tuition fees, austerity, trident etc..) to further her career. She is everything that is wrong with politics.

      BUT, the REAL problem lies with the so-called ‘journalists’ who singularly fail to pull her up on this wholly unfounded, lying, willfully deceptive, tosh. She just lies and lies and lies.

    169. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      ‘Highland Clearances’ or ‘Lowland Clearances’ = Ethnic Cleansing or British Nationalist Imperial Policy of genocide IMHO @Sunshine says at 10:18 am

    170. kapelmeister says:

      Showbiz News.

      Actress Jo Swinson, star of ‘I’m Alright Frack’, ‘Carry On Frack’ and ‘The Carpetbaggers’ is auditioning for the role of
      Lib Dem leader.

    171. Cactus says:

      Afternoon all, aweright McBoxheid, hehe that was funny, that song wisnae about the music… twas all about the first day of today, ye ken July

      What kind of music are ye intae yersel anyhows?

      Anything can happen thru the nite

    172. Malcolm says:

      This Jo Swindom is a complete numptie. She doesnt deserve to be the leader of the Lib dims. I’m surprised Adam Bolton didnt tell her that the Scottish electorate DO have a mandate for an Independence referendum.

    173. Effijy says:

      The Express heralds the tale that Farage is going to promise £200
      Billion to English Regions outside of London.

      He claims that Labour’s Northern Stronghold is now a Brexit Stronghold?

      Apparently he is going to fix their entire infrastructure with this money.

      Quite a feat as the HS2 Rail link document leaked by the Treasury
      suggest that alone will cost well over £100 Billion.

      For those in the extreme North of England, formerly known as Scotland, you are getting nothing so be grateful for it.

      Bojo the Clown hates Scots, Asians, the Working Classes, his neighbours and the poorest members of society but he is fully expected to be the next Prime Minister of England and its Colonies????

      The quality of English politician sees the PM job delivered by
      getting a haircut and keeping your mouth shut for as long as possible?

    174. Ghillie says:

      Sunshine, Galamcennalath and Jockanese Wind Talker,

      Excellent points on the Clearances.

      I had family in Strathnaver who spoke of the Clearances as if it were living memory.

    175. Ghillie says:

      As for the monarchy, I don’t see why anyone should be seen as special by dint of who bonked who.

    176. K1 says:

      Rev’s at the moment, latest retweet for a competition to get a a playground for a primary school called ‘Woodlands Primary School’ based in Scotland has a link to the voting page, but when I click on the list of the schools from that link there is no option to choose Woodlands Primary School on that list. I of course put the name into field when I went to vote but it has not recognised this school.

      Could someone tweet Rev and the tweeter Zoe who has put the link up to let them know this?

      They are claiming Woodlands Primary School is in second place and that people can vote up to once a day till 3rd July to get this prize for the school. So I’d appreciate them fixing this so that some of us can vote for this. Cheers

    177. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Cactus 🙂

      Loved your July song =)

    178. DerekM says:

      Haha the red tory branch office are really stupid.

      ps Britnat red tories in Scotland aint finished with you clowns just busy dismantling your party in England but dont worry we are not biased because we are dismantling the conservatives as well.

      Man that constitutional nuke bomb we planted in 2016 is so going to blow up in their faces if they keep tying to diffuse it using sledgehammers.

    179. K1 says:

      Okay I didn’t scroll down the first page, ma bad. But Still can’t get it to accept ma vote. 🙁

    180. galamcennalath says:

      Clearances. Family research can throw up some grim truths. My father’s father’s etc … back to the early 1800s were shepherds. So, while most folks were being cleared out to make way for sheep, by ancestors found a niche tending said sheep. Did that make the first shepherd in this line a lachie to the laird? Did he sell out and abandon all his old neighbours to the mills or emigration? Or was he just doing what he could in a hard and changing world for his family?

      His choices finally resulted in me, who I am and where I came from. Others can decide whether the net result was for good 🙂

    181. Capella says:

      @ K1 – I voted for Woodlands Primary School and it worked OK. Did you click the box to confirm you’re not a robot?

    182. Golfnut says:

      @ Ottomanboi

      Thanks for the links, but it wasn’t this article. Unfortunately I’ve forget the origin of this story, but I’m pretty certain it was linked to Arran.
      Once again thanks.

    183. K1 says:

      I switched maself on and off again to confirm Capella 😉

      All joking aside, yes…but the page doesn’t seem to be registering my vote, red writing underneath saying to check name and/or post code, I’ve now tried several times with just post code and name. Is there a confirmation of vote page that should be coming up after I’ve voted do you recall?

    184. K1 says:

      ‘* YOU’D LIKE TO VOTE FOR…

      Woodlands Primary

      *Please search for the participant you would like to vote for. You can search by name, city, state and zip.’

      This is what I get when I input Woodlands Primary, it’s highlighted in red. When I do the post code only, it’s the same message.

    185. Cactus says:

      Hey Ghillie, aye July is the summer season and the reason why

      Try this one McBoxheid, here’s one for you and all of the new Wingers aboard, for your audit and analysis 🙂
      (This one is by L.E. aussi)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgSQcybSFVk

      Sometimes it not about the music and more the message

    186. raineach says:

      @Ghillie
      Don’t worry about people being special just because their Dad’s royal – it’s never stopped Prince Harry

    187. geeo says:

      I see the new patter is “planting 3 Billion /trees by 2050”

      Or…10987 days (7 leap years)

      Or…262,992 hours.

      So, starting on Jan,1st 2020, thats 11,407 new trees planted EVERY HOUR or every day of every year.

      Seems unlikely.

    188. geeo says:

      Tree planting in uk only btw.

    189. Dr Jim says:

      Fergus Ewing says The Scottish Government have just completed 60.000 hectares of tree planting

    190. Ottomanboi says:

      Regarding the Scottish Land-grab aka clearances I understand that many years ago victims of cleansing returned to Scotland from Canada, Australia etc for some touristy clan event and most protested their opposition to Scottish independence.
      Tom Devine’s ‘Scottish Clearances’ wasn’t available then, now they have no excuse.

    191. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Ottomanboi says: 11:55 am

      “Be wary of people in the EU or elsewhere described as ‘anglophile’. The Spitzenkandidat for Junkers job, the Dutchman Frans Timmermans is labelled such.”
      —————

      FT is an admirer of the “British” way of life, land, culture but not of the political system. As are many people on the continent who admire Scotland and the Scottish way of life just as much.

      I’ve seen him a few times on German telly, interviews etc. and I think he’d make quite a good Commissioner. His English is excellent BTW.

      Here he is giving Cockburn the rat a going over:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM583ODtjPM

    192. DerekM says:

      Highland clearances = forced relocation

      Says it all really.

      I am sure there was another bunch not that long ago that were into forced relocation big time,though a bunch of hypocrites who were guilty of the same crimes against humanity claim to have beaten them all by themselves.

      That nasty Norman streak has never gone away and this island still suffers those aristocratic terrorists who think they own us like cattle.

      Scotland can do much better we can leave all that garbage where it belongs in the dustbin of history and forge a new path,who knows in doing so we might even free all the peoples on this island from centuries of tyranny.

      Its got to be worth a try.

    193. Scott says:

      Re Jo Swinson,Did I not read somewhere that she was born in Glasgow but at the same time she was born in Bath,no wonder she lies if she can’t know where she was born.

    194. Dr Jim says:

      One wonders growing up at what point in a human life someone comes to the decision where they say to themselves *I want to be a Liberal Democrat* and are delighted with their choice

    195. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Watch and send it far and wide.

      twitter.com/YesScot/status/1145623184793841666

    196. Lenny Hartley says:

      Dr Jm @1446 skating on thin ice there, prepare for a hammer attack 🙂

    197. Lenny Hartley says:

      K1 re voting, i had the same issue , dont type in a name etc , just click on the box and woodlands came up, clicked on that and it sent me a verification email.

    198. McBoxheid says:

      Cactus says:
      1 July, 2019 at 2:07 pm

      Hey Ghillie, aye July is the summer season and the reason why

      Try this one McBoxheid, here’s one for you and all of the new Wingers aboard, for your audit and analysis ?
      (This one is by L.E. aussi)

      Sometimes it not about the music and more the message
      ——–

      I hear the message, Cactus.

      People are still suffering and the lucky ones are being relocated today because of british and american greed/foreign policy. Palestine. Afgahnistan. Iraq. Libya. Syria. Yemen. Iran?

      Where does it stop?

      Germany took and is taking millions. Scotland would take more, but we can’t because one of the belligerents is preventing it.

      The music is still not doing it for me though.

    199. Capella says:

      @ K1 – I started typing “Woodlands ” and the drop down list appeared with “Woodlands Primary School” the only choice. So I clicked that to select it then voted. I then got an email with a link to confirm my vote:

      Thank you for participating in our contest!
      Your vote for Woodlands Primary School was successfully registered.

      Woodlands is second on the list and it seems you can vote every day. So may have to return tomorrow. 🙂

    200. Capella says:

      @ Graf Midgehunter – great speech from Franz Timmermans. He’d get my vote.

    201. McBoxheid says:

      Cactus says:
      1 July, 2019 at 1:25 pm

      Afternoon all, aweright McBoxheid, hehe that was funny, that song wisnae about the music… twas all about the first day of today, ye ken July

      What kind of music are ye intae yersel anyhows?

      Anything can happen thru the nite
      ———–
      Thats a truly difficult question to answer: Punk, Rock, Heavy Metal, but not death/thrash metal, trad Scottish/Irish, some Bluegrass, Blues, Grunge, some Country ach, a whole heap of stuff, some pop even. I guess I need to feel the vibe or hear the story to enjoy something. Plenty of live bands around the world play decent stuff. Not so keen on Rap/Hiphop, but some good, depends on my mood.

    202. crazycat says:

      @ K1

      I had to disable ad-blocker to see the prompt for Woodlands.
      Then the verification e-mail contained a link that was not a link, but pasting it into a new tab worked.

    203. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sunshine says: 1 July, 2019 at 10:18 am:

      ” … I just read the phrase Highland Clearance in a post further up the thread. Something irks me about the phrase ‘Highland Clearances’. I dont know about any of you, but it really seems a phrase that betrays the brutality and the reality of the decades long terror forced on people.”

      Actually, Sunshine, it wasn’t just the Highlands but all of Scotland including the Lowlands and the Southern Uplands. The Highlands were, perhaps, more brutal but the cruelty of clearing the rest of Scotland, making agricultural workers homeless and transporting them to the colonies.

      When a large proportion of the deportees who had committed on other crime than being found to be, “Without visible means of Support”, after not being fee’d on and thus losing their tied cottages, bothies or servant’s quarters in, “The Big Hoose”. Many never survived the voyage to the colonies and more didn’t survive their, “apprenticeships”, if they made it to the colonies.

      These deaths may have been less sudden but were every bit as cruel and perhaps even worse in being a slow and painful death.

    204. CameronB Brodie says:

      galamcennalath @12:03pm
      “Why did the population of resource rich Scotland flatline in the 20thC?”

      Short answer, Scotland’s lack of a national parliament to counteract the economic black-hole that is London and the south-east. Scotland’s lack of effective political AGENCY has made it hard to develop a sufficiently broad-based economy to retain our talent. A problem that Britain’s “regional policy” has conspicuously failed to address over the years. A policy that contemporary Tories appear to have forgotten about (see the full-English Brexit).

      A modern regional policy for the United Kingdom
      March 2003

      ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/archive/debate/document/futur/member/departement_of_trade_and_industry_mar_03.pdf

    205. Legerwood says:

      Ottomanboi says:
      1 July, 2019 at 2:21 pm
      Regarding the Scottish Land-grab aka clearances I understand that many years ago victims of cleansing returned to Scotland from Canada, Australia etc for some touristy clan event and most protested their opposition to Scottish independence.
      Tom Devine’s ‘Scottish Clearances’ wasn’t available then, now they have no excuse.””
      …………

      T Devinee’s book may not have been available but John Prebble’s book on the Clearances certainly was.

      The event you mention was The Homecoming. Labour/LibDem Coalition’s idea but scheduling meant it happened after SNP won 2007 election. Clearly the Coalition did not believe it would be out of office by then. Ended up being a bit of a shambles.

    206. robertknight says:

      The Banner of the Royal Arms of the King/Queen of Scots belongs to the Monarch and is used by his/her representatives and on royal residences when the Monarch is not in residence.

      Post-Indy we should fins an alternative use as a State Flag for it, combined with the National Flag.

      The shield depicting the lion rampant should be added to the national flag in the style of the Flag of Nova Scotia.

      We’d then, like so many continental countries, have both a National Flag (Current design… Pantone 300 and ratio 2:3) plus the State Flag (National Flag plus Lion rampant shield).

      In the mean time, the Royals can run up a blanket with Peppa Pig on it for all I care.

    207. K1 says:

      Thanks folks, I don’t have ad blocker Crazycat, and no drop down menu appears, I’ve now tried safari and chrome browsers, same thing is happening in both. So I’ll just leave it as it’s too much hassle trying to figure out why it isn’t working my end. But cheers for the feedback 🙂

    208. David says:

      We are facing Brexit a possible collapse in our living standards .And Wings thinks a quote from Jenny Marra about a historic event will bring Independence any nearer .
      And worse you lot thought it was a good idea to join in .
      The only way it can legally happen is if the Scottish Government asks for a section 30 order .
      So Wings what is your plan to get them to ask and to you lot what pressure are you putting on the Scottish Government to ask .And if they do ask and get turned down what then and the Scottish Government must have a plan for that what is it .Or is the plan to dilly dally and kick that Irn Bru can that far down the road we wont be able to find it

    209. geeo says:

      Poor wee David, putting up a good effort for worse concern troll in Wings history 🙂 but ultimately, just another zoomer.

    210. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi David at 6:39 pm.

      You typed,
      “The only way it can legally happen is if the Scottish Government asks for a section 30 order .”

      You haven’t read all the previous comments on this page, iye? If you had, you would have read,

      ” Dr Jim says:
      30 June, 2019 at 12:12 pm

      Paragraph 18 of the Smith Commission is clear

      *It is agreed that nothing in this report prevents Scotland being an Independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose*

      By their own words they are condemned”

      Then there was,

      ” Dr Jim says:
      30 June, 2019 at 8:30 pm

      I keep writing this: The Smith Commission 27 November 2014

      *It is agreed that nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an Independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose*

      They’ve already agreed to Scotland having a referendum whenever it wants, so this denial of a section 30 is Pish Tosh and Hogwash”

      The Scottish Parliament can have a referendum on ANYTHING, whenever it wants.

      Our parliament does NOT have to “ask” for permission from ANYBODY to hold a referendum. It already has that mandate from the people of Scotland.

    211. RM says:

      Speaking to an Irishman about Scottish independence, he just said the Irish had to fight for it but the Scots don’t seem willing to fight, not literally.

    212. Cubby says:

      David@6.39pm

      I would like to ask David what law is being broken if no section 30? What makes it illegal? Is it illegal because you heard some Britnat diddy say it was on Scotland Tonight?

      I would like to ask David to stop fondling his Union flag and do some fact finding. Alternatively just pissof.

    213. David says:

      Hi guys well if the Scottish Parliament does not need to ask for permission for a referendum .First I want one 2nd what is the hold up then .Why does the Scottish Government not just organize one then .
      If no law is being broken by not asking for a section 30 why did Alec Salmond do a deal with David Cameron to get one for 2014 .
      No section 30 needed tell Ian Blackford that .
      Brit Nats on Scotland Tonight tell that to Kevin Pringle who is on quite often Then Keith Brown in debate could not say if Indy 2 will be in the second half of next year the guy he was debating Jackson Carlaw did not know how many kids were living in poverty or how many food parcels are in use in his constituency .
      As the Scottish Government don’t look like doing anything on Indy The USA look as if they are about to impose import tariffs on whisky so what are you lot going to do to protest about that .Have you raised anything with your MP MSP or are you guys all talk and leave it to others

    214. Breeks says:

      @David.

      Others might disagree, but my tuppence worth says this;

      A Section 30 is a shortcut. It’s a kind of “gentleman’s Agreement” that both governments would voluntarily agree to respect the outcome of the referendum, thus truncating the lengthy and fractious Constitutional arguments which, if unresolved, could lead to the Referendum result being disputed, or unrecognised by other Nations.

      The reason why a Section 30 in 2019 is different from a Section 30 in 2014 is simply that back in 2014, David Cameron was complacent about the chances of Scotland actually winning it’s Independence, and saw the Section 30 as merely a protocol of convenience. Don’t believe the hype. The Unionist Establishment got a bloody big fright in 2014, and five years later they remain perplexed and terrified of another referendum. It is much easier for the Unionist Establishment to obstruct and prevent a referendum happening, because winning it properly on merit through persuasion is beyond them, and the know it.

      In 2019 however, Westminster in it’s “wisdom” and sophistry, has decided to treat a Section 30 Agreement as a de facto veto to holding an referendum, since it can simply decline to enter any such agreement based upon its own prerogative, and treat a Section 30 as a “permission” somehow required. This is delusional, opportunistic time wasting.

      All it means Constitutionally, is that a similar “gentleman’s Agreement” shortcut is never going to happen for IndyRef2, and the legality of both holding the referendum and respecting the result needs to happen the longhand way, based upon Scotland’s Constitutional legitimacy and legal merit… a potentially (but not necessarily), long and drawn out affair. (Spoiler – We’d win).

      It is arguable, that securing clarity over the legitimacy of Scotland holding its own referendum might have been prudent housekeeping that might have been sorted out at any stage during the last 5 years. It would seem that confidence the Westminster Government might agree to another Section 30 Agreement was overly optimistic. Either that, or the inevitable refusal of Westminster to agree a second S30 was considered a sufficiently “charged” issue to provoke a Constitutional stand off.

      We are where we are, and Unionists seem smug that there isn’t time to conclude a Constitutional Test Case before Brexit, and thus any Scottish Referendum held without a Section 30 will have a problem with legitimacy. But this is unwise. The Referendum could go ahead as quickly as practicable, and seek to establish lawful legitimacy retrospectively. It is very unlikely to lose that dispute, because Scotland’s Constitution and the Claim of Right are sound, well documented, and recorded.

      I’ll leave others to enlighten you on why the SNP hasn’t begun these processes, because I haven’t a clue. I’d have sought to drive a coach and horses through the Treaty of Union.

      I still harbour my own beliefs that if you can prove in law that Scotland can hold a referendum at any time amongst it’s sovereign people and robust Constitutional provenance, then why bother with the referendum? A sovereign No vote will be just as Constitutionally robust as a sovereign YES vote, so whatever it is the referendum decides, it isn’t Sovereignty.

      I’m a big fan of Alex Salmond, but I think the 2014 Referendum Question didn’t really do any justice to Scotland’s Sovereignty and Constitution as an “Equal” Kingdom in a bipartite Treaty. The Constitutional ramifications of a YES vote were well enough considered, but less so, the Constitutional ramifications of a No vote.

      In my humble opinion, we should have started with a more surefooted grasp of sovereignty. I think a much better question, and a more explicit question appropriate to our circumstance might have been “Should the Sovereign Nation of Scotland repeal the 1707 Treaty of Union? Y/N

    215. David says:

      Thank you for your comment Breeks
      I have read that 2 uni legal experts had a look at this .They came to the conclusion that because Alec Salmond and David Cameron reached an agreement .Nothing was set down in Law so maybe no matter what happens Lawyers should be instructed to look at it .To clear things up.
      The devolution revue suddenly set up by the PM was there any warning she was going to do this .
      I am very wary of this .
      She wont be in office when it reports but I do think the Scottish parliament should participate in full.
      That way we can let Westminster know what we want .And what is wrong with their attitude to Holyrood but it would be 2 way and we might not like what they say to us

    216. Gary says:

      Absolutely true of course and then, so was the Government of England as well. Democracy has been a moving feast.

      Women only getting the vote in the 20th Century mean that anything prior to that, even with a majority of those allowed to vote, didn’t represent the populace.

      Even now, perhaps ESPECIALLY now, anything apart from a few small things allowed, which happens in Scotland is not decided by those affected and certainly not by those old enough to vote. It is, STILL decided by the South East of England and the Lords and Ladies of the House of Lords (clue’s in the name) who are unelected and unwanted by us. Using ‘Statutory Instruments’ to circumvent democracy (or what passes for it) just rub salt in the wound.

      But the Tories talk about ‘Strengthening the Union’ which I guess will mean telling us how stupid we are and how grateful we should be for the largesse of a government giving us back a small amount of what WE give them and accepting our place in not getting to decide in how most of that gets spent.

      Then we’ll all tug our forelocks and salute the Union Jack and say ‘right guv’nor’ and shuffle back to our hovels…

    217. David says:

      Thank you for your comment Garry PM suddenly on her way out decides the devolved parliaments are getting to big for their boots better have a revue but not into devolution itself .
      And eh Boris or Tory Jeremy get to handle the result .I don’t think so
      And Indy or not don’t underestimate the power of the city of London

    218. David says:

      Thank you for your comment Garry PM suddenly on her way out decides the devolved parliaments are getting to big for their boots better have a revue but not into devolution itself .
      And eh Boris or Tory Jeremy get to handle the result .I don’t think so
      And Indy or not don’t underestimate the power of the city of London And don’t bother explaining



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top