Pretending to be stupid
All political discourse is plagued with genuine imbeciles, of course. But what’s far more depressing is when educated and normally perceptive people merely act like imbeciles for money, such as the case of Alex Massie in the Sunday Times today.
Because for the last two years, commentators who ought to know better have insisted in presenting Scotland’s choice as between Brexit or Brexit plus independence, and solemnly concluding that the uncertainties and risks of the latter being piled on top of those of the former prove that independence is no solution.
And we don’t care to have our intelligence insulted in that way.
Because as we’ve said consistently for the last two and a half years, by any honest analysis Brexit completely reverses the economic argument for independence. It is beyond any reasonable dispute that independence inside the EU is by far the safer choice, the more moderate choice, than being dragged out of the EU against our will by England and Wales.
Scotland’s choice is Brexit OR independence. And think how LITTLE uncertainty would currently be afflicting the Scottish economy right now were it an independent EU state.
(Even the most frothingly idiotic Unionists couldn’t credibly argue that any negotiations to secure that status wouldn’t have been concluded by now had we voted Yes in 2014. Scotland already meets every membership criterion and both sides in the negotiation would want the same thing, a process diametrically unlike what’s happening between the UK and EU. It would have been a matter of admin, not argument.)
Indeed, an independent Scotland would be an oasis of certainty for UK companies. Firms and individual workers alike would be flooding over the border in their thousands every day to enjoy a safe haven of EU citizenship and trade in a country that still spoke the same language and watched the same TV and used the same money and ate the same food.
England might be Scotland’s biggest trade market, but very little would happen to that market. After all, we’re being told even now that there’s absolutely no chance of a hard border between EU Ireland and UK Northern Ireland, so plainly there’d be no need for one at Carlisle and Berwick either.
(There have been desperate and distasteful attempts by the UK’s Unionist media to pretend that the history of violence in Northern Ireland makes it a different case, but in Trident an independent Scotland would have a far bigger bargaining chip concentrating the UK’s mind than the threat of a resurgence of the Troubles, which we know Tories in particular are only superficially concerned about.)
But what’s even clearer is that if there were to be significant trade barriers between the rUK and Scotland, anyone with enough braincells to fill a matchbox can see which side of those barriers it’s going to be preferable to be on – the EU side.
Scotland would benefit from the EU’s vastly superior negotiating position in exactly the same way Ireland is doing now. Whatever its many faults the EU has solidly had our Celtic neighbour’s back throughout the last two and a half years, and Scotland could expect exactly the same level of protection – indeed, even more so, as Scotland would own the fishing waters that the EU so prizes.
(Nobody much cares for the Common Fisheries Policy, but fishing represents a tiny percentage of the Scottish economy and fishermen are going to be sold out again by the Tories anyway. At least an independent Scotland would have a voice at the table when attempting to reform the CFP, whereas under the Brexit deal the EU will get to carve it up pretty much however it likes without the UK even getting a say.)
None of this is rocket science. It’s hardly beyond the comprehension of someone like Alex Massie. Yet he and his glib echo chamber of groupthinking pals in the punditariat insist on dishonestly feigning ignorance of the blindingly obvious reality.
We were quite misanthropic before this site ever began, if we’re honest, readers. But seven years of watching clever people pretending to be thicker than 50 short planks would turn the most reasonable person in the world into a psychopath.
Yeah that’s all well and good but the BBC says we should all admire Theresa May for being determined, That’s very important they say, and admirable and stuff and the SNP would be worse they say because they’re not admirable they just threaten the break up of r precious
So no choice really
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11986829/Flying-fish-why-fresh-salmon-are-a-crucial-cargo-for-Heathrow.html
dont usually post links to unionist newspapers, but this is an example of scottish exports to england.
why cant scottish salmon fly from prestwick?
Correction – England is not Scotland biggest market. Virtually 100% of all Scottish Exports leave the UK from England and are therefore calculated as (a) trade be between England & Scotland – because the goods need to go to England to exit the UK and (b) thereafter as English Exports not Scottish. UK Tresuary VAT Location scam… and basis for the biggest trading partner bollocks
Here is the funny thing….
The only kind of brexit which could create a border within the UK is “no-deal” / “hard-brexit”. That is not the kind of sinking ship anyone would want to tie their economic future to.
If UK selects customs union / EEA then there can be no border with independent Scotland.
“Firms and individual workers alike would be flooding over the border in their thousands every day to enjoy a safe haven of EU citizenship and trade in a country that still spoke the same language and watched the same TV and used the same money and ate the same food.”
I think ‘stovies’ that greatest of all Scottish culinary disappointments might come as a culture shock to many immigrants from South Britain. 🙂
I was made aware just now courtesy of the BBC Sunday 12 noon news bulletin that apparently Glasgow is unique in the UK in experiencing problems with illegal drug use.
Who’d have guessed ?
schrodingers cat asks:
“why cant scottish salmon fly from prestwick?”
Wrong colour passport ?
Does anyone actually believe England will ever let Scotland go? A deeply negative view, but I am more convinced than ever. After Brexit and a YES referendum result, there will no EU to speak up for us. Other international bodies will only have words to offer. England will simply not agree to independence. They won’t sanction a referendum, therefore they will claim the result invalid. I don’t believe there is a country or organisation that will rush to help. Hope Im wrong.
Perhaps Massie should have done some research into the actual trade between Scotland and England and what actually the trade is comprised of and where else England would be able to get it. I am sure Scotland would easily reduce our reliance on England for “services” which is their biggest “export” to us.
@Schrodingers cat:
When Scotsgov bought Prestwick for £1, could it be they were thinking ahead to the day we could use an airport solely to export/import in an indy Scotland?
As for Sunday Politics…..all that was missing was the bit at the end saying “this has been a party political broadcast for the tory party”
“SNP BAD” and absolutely ZERO right to reply. Disgusting.
The thing Massie and co will put up is our supposedly massive trade with England (Wales is rarely mentioned) and how that would be threatened. Apart from the surge of English businesses moving north which rather reverses that flow the figures are rather murky.
This is because of the parlous state of our ports* Scottish exports especially to the EU have to head south of the border to find an export port where they get booked as Scottish trade with England and English exports.
Two things should change post Independence, firstly in terms of the stats and data though Holyrood could do more to gather it and compel companies to collect it and secondly in terms of port capacity.
*I nearly fell off my chair recently when our sole, shallow water, container port up the Forth at Grangemouth trumpeted the installation of power points for refrigerated containers to plug into as though it was a major innovation. The container ports all round the country NZ built after the UK entered the EEC had that from the start since the majority of NZ’s exports are refrigerated.
The first refrigerated lamb left Port Chalmers near Dunedin in the 1880s bound for London.
When I discovered how poor the container ports were in Scotland I was shocked. They need to be deep water so the biggest ships can dock. England has several including a number of new ones. Post independence we will need to identify sites (near production sites to reduce truck distances) and find the funds or developers willing to invest to get them built.
the long term goal of the snp is to rejoin the eu. this could take years because
1. the eu has said that an independent scotland would need to rejoin the eu as a new state under section 49. Fact
2. andrew mar has said spain would veto any eu application by an independent scotland 🙂
3. the bbc has said europe would block any eu application by an independent scotland 🙂
4. andrew neil has said that an independent scotland would have to join a very long queue behind turkey 🙂
to this end, the snp’s immediate concern is getting back into the SM/CU to reverse as much as possible the damaging effects of
brexit. EFTA/EEA membership is the quickest way to regain access to the SM/CU.
efta members are not part of the CAP or the CFP
The Brexit deal increases the need to achieve Independence. The apparent trade between England and Scotland is an artificial construct. The “threats” – that can be the only interpretation of the referral to trade will collapse when tested. However with neighbour who has proven a willingness for self harm in negotiations perhaps an early entry to the EU may be advisable as a defence.
The ongoing travel to the extreme right by the “little englanders” may become difficult for Scotland but far better dealt with as an Independent state than as a “region” ignored as it has been throughout the Brexit debate.
82% of scottish exports to everywhere in the world are made from the following
oil, fish, gas, seed potatoes, petrol, whisky, electricity, stud beef.
Actually, this article could give more emphasis to an important point.
Britain under May has devoted two years to making sure there’s no barriers to trade. That’s two years work and many sacrifices to make sure that no barriers can ever exist between an independent Scotland in the EU and England.
It would be impossible for england to erect barriers if Scotland was to vote for independence and join the EU as a full member or an associate of some sort.
One of these days yon Massie will portentously announce that he advocates independence. It won’t be as a result of listening to the arguments of people he despises. No – it’ll be a revelation borne of his unique genius requiring the production of numerous lengthy articles to enlighten us lesser mortals.
The verbose, self-aggrandizing pish this character generates is evidence of how style still trumps substance when it comes to defending the broken Union, but for those who haven’t the time, inclination or thesaurus, we can always look to his Twitteration to discover the real qualities of the man – a snidey ball-less bully. (e.g the recent treatment of Eddie Reader)
We constantly encourage one another to accept converts to the Yes side and don’t always agree on who should be embraced. Massie can do or say whatever he likes, but I for one will never ever believe that he’s anything but a nasty dyed-in-the-wool Yoon snob of the worst kind. He and his ever-so eloquent ‘chums’ can go to hell.
@Schrodinger’s Cat
The EU parliament right back at the start was exploring how if Scotland voted Yes before Brexit happened our EU membership would get essentially set in aspic whilst we organised and negotiated. We would keep our EU citizenship and the number of MEPs (no increase) but not have qualified majority voting rights (but observer status) and we would in effect inherit the UK’s membership as the Remaining part of the UK.
This was back when Sturgeon marched us up to the top of the hill preparing for indyref2 and all the Yes2 badges got made. Then the snap GE was called and the SNP went rabbit in the headlamps into ‘no referendum’ with no strategy and failed to mention or defend independence and Nicola got all dismayed by losing some seats despite we maintained a big majority and 3rd party status at WM. So the EU went cold on us as we were making no detectable moves towards them.
Now the time is rather short unless we have a rather snap referendum before March 30. That we will have to spend time out is the SNP’s fault. We could have been negotiating our membership and our independence now while rUK seriously rethinks all this Brexit silliness. Craig Murray pointed out all the normal established non referendum routes countries have taken to independence. He was ignored. Nicola took ‘now is not the time’ to heart and there was no plan B. No court case to test if the idea that the original Section 30 was ongoing. Nothing.
This is how historians will see this period as a lost opportunity. If we end up sitting in EFTA because the SNP are too spineless I will not be pleased. I expect their MEPs won’t be best leased either.
“”Nobody much cares for the Common Fisheries Policy, but fishing represents a tiny percentage of the Scottish economy and fishermen are going to be sold out again by the Tories anyway””
Fishing may represent a ‘tiny percentage of the Scottish economy overall but it represents a large percentage of the economies, and viability, of coastal communities particularly, and especially, the communities, both island and mainland, on the West Coast of Scotland.
Membership of the EU and the resultant trade with the EU e.g. shellfish, is very important as are the grants received from the EU to upgrade and extend facilities and infrastructure and thus increase employment. Grants that would certainly not be forthcoming from Westminster and would be unaffordable to Holyrood under the current devolved settlement which is about to change and not for the better.
The West Coast fisherman, unlike the East Coast fishermen, were/are more pro-EU something that is rarely acknowledged in discussions on the subject which seem to centre on the East Coast fishermen to the exclusion of all else.
‘…and fishermen are going to be sold out again by the Tories anyway.’ ‘Anyway’ that’s an argument is it?
That we will have to spend time out is the SNP’s fault.
bollox
Big enough. Rich enough. Smart enough. I like that. We need more of that positive messaging during the next indyref campaign. Scotland can be a small, prosperous and liberal country in the EU like Norway, Denmark, Sweden etc.
Damn the naysayers. If they don’t like living in a free Scotland, they can hop the border and go live under the benevolent hand of Westminster.
Surgical evisceration there, Rev. But something else I gleaned from the tone of this article – seems to me you are ratcheting things up a notch or ten. It’s clear from this piece that you can plainly see the battleground that lies ahead upon which IndyRef2 will be fought. And you haven’t wasted any time in landing the first blow on the BritNat chinless wonders.
Nice work.
The only time the *Scottish* press will advocate Independence is when they’re 100% sure we’ll be denied it
You sell more papers by moaning and shouting
“England will simply not agree to independence.”
So, after our YES victory, Scotland simply sets the Indy date and that is when we become indy. We won’t be asking for England’s permission or agreement. What are they going to do? Send the tanks in, become a pariah state and be sanctioned by EU & UN? They can’t afford to risk that. Much better for them to accept our vote and keep us as a friendly neighbour and a bridge between themselves and the EU (something they will sorely need so, in that sense, Scot indy will be a benefit to rUK).
If the UK goes for May’s plan and if you believe the best future for the UK is to be in the EU one fo the best ways of achieving that is by Scotland being Independent.
If Scotland votes for Independence whilst the rUK is is the transition arrangements the potential ‘No Deal’ implications to rUK become even worse. How on earth do you fly a plane from USA to rUK without striking a deal with the EU that Scotland and Ireland would be members of?
How attractive is it striking a deal with the rUK when the fishing rights and the oil will have moved into EU when Scotland becomes indepdent?
With both those problems rUK would probably have to rejoin the EU.
Acting like an imbecile for money – that really is a sad existence!
Being a purveyor of fake news and propaganda against the best interests of your own country on behalf of another, for money – that really is scraping the bottom of a very deep sewer!
Brexit is such a mess, but I know of no-one who can even as yet predict the outcome. Yet everyone seems to be aware of when Nicola should have done what and why .
Nicola may not know all the permutations but she knows a damn sight more than we do..
The crunch is coming very soon. If Parliament accepts the deal then the UK is more difficult to fracture. If no deal then minds become focused because of self interest.
We already have been removed from the EU and would have to reapply in any event.
Do not put the carts in front of the horses. We know that many voters want to know the Brexit outcome before deciding one way or another. We need those votes.
If the SNP had acted sooner I believe we would have lost,on an issue bigger than any individual indy supporter.
Each time someone says Scotland trades to England ask them where England will find a source close enough to them that even if tariffs are introduced the additional transport costs won’t give Scotland an advantage?
At the same time if putative tariffs are introduced to “persuade” rUK customers not to buy Scottish are they willing to accept a deliberate hike in the cost of living to prove a point?
There’s a story going the rounds that at one point in American history they voted to outlaw cannabis. All well and good until the farmers that voted for that were informed it included hemp too which was for many a staple being one source for the paper industry. Their competitors in the timber industry laughed all the way to the bank.
@Street Andrew says: 25 November, 2018 at 12:28 pm@
” … I think ‘stovies’ that greatest of all Scottish culinary disappointments might come as a culture shock to many immigrants from South Britain.”
Oh! Come on now, Street Andrew, there are as many different recipes for stovies as there are Grannies in Scotland.
Some are good and some are not so good – (That’s the stovies recipes that are good and not so good – not the Grannies).
Oh! I dunnow though, mibbies it also applies to the Grannies.
“that independence inside the EU is by far the safer choice”
Make that within the EU or EFTA, but in either case the EEA.
@Street Andrew says: 25 November, 2018 at 12:32 pm:
” … “why cant scottish salmon fly from prestwick?
Wrong colour passport?
Nah! It’s because all those salmon are immigrants that just come to Scotland for the better Scottish maternity services.
It is the United Kingdom Home Office that insists they must leave, “The Country”, but who wrongly think, “The Country”, is the whole United Kingdom.
Routing the salmon thru Prestwick is a Non-Starter.
Reeason – contrary to what most folk think most air freight is carried in the holds of passenger aircraft and not in dedicated air freighters.
It follows that for the salmon to go thru Prestwick there would need to be passenger flights to the relevant destinations – the same would apply to most air freight other than salmon.
Alex Massie used to be intelligent a long time ago.
Look what happened.
@Former vegan god says: 25 November, 2018 at 12:33 pm:
” … Hope Im wrong.”
Yes you are wrong. After all the ECJ rejected the UK Government’s claims that the UK Supreme Court had the legal authority to simply reject the Scottish Government’s decision to take the matter to the ECJ as illegal.
In other words the ECJ has ruled that the Scottish Legal system is indeed independent and that means that the People of Scotland, not either the UK Monarchy or the UK Government can overrule a Scottish Court decision. A.K.A. The People of Scotland are legally sovereign and when a majority of them say the Union is over then it legally is over.
Never got the love for Massie who always seems to be writing from a bygone age.
Like most of his ilk, he presents the idea that the Westminster process and UK way of doing things is the pinnacle of human endeavour. Hence if they fail then so must we.
The idea that an independent Scotland could look and learn from the myriad of mistakes made by the Tories is anathema to him coming from the privilege and superiority of a background of posh schools and a father in the Press.
Scotland will never reach its potential with one hand tied behind its back, which it is currently under Westminster.
How can we possibly go forward without all the levers of government that other independent nations currently possess, and take for granted.
There’s only so much we can do without independence.
So England’s arrogance, ignorance and incompetence means an independent Scotland’s future is bleak?! Aye, right.
Former vegan god@12.33pm
Any of your pals ever mention to you that you are a bit pessimistic?
You need to throw of the conditioning that the all pervasive Britnat media has on people. If it comes from the Britnats it is guaranteed to be a lie. They want to keep Scotland in its box but the lid of the box is not locked it just needs people in Scotland to shake of the conditioning that tells them the lid is locked and we cannot escape.
CLAIR RIDGE
Massie – just another Britnat liar.
I’ve always wondered if there is a Massie in another anti matter universe who just tells the truth when he opens his mouth.
He was one of the Clair Ridge deniers.
CLAIR RIDGE
I have a slightly different take on it: Massie is unquestionably clever, but on the independence question he is also wrong. For years, he has been able to tell himself that his was the voice of reason, that independence was obviously far too risky an approach to take.
Even without Brexit, he would be wrong: In life, you have to take risks and risks are worth taking if the potential gain is large enough.
But with Brexit, even Massie’s own argument is now false. The risky option is now plainly not having independence.
If you’re whole self-image is being the smart guy who sees deeper and further than everyone else, then it must stuck in the craw to admit that all this time you’ve been wrong.
I often wonder who Massie imagines he’s addressing when he sits down to write, or indeed, opens his mouth.
Is it simply the case that the shallow, little fucker, bereft of all partisanship, is doing it for the money and the money alone?
@schrodingers cat says: 25 November, 2018 at 12:37 pm:
” … the long term goal of the snp is to rejoin the eu. this could take years because
1. the eu has said that an independent scotland would need to rejoin the eu as a new state under section 49. Fact”
That’s o.k. We just tell them that until we are inside the EU looking out then all EU countries are to get themselves out of Scottish territorial waters and fishing grounds.
” … 2. andrew mar has said spain would veto any eu application by an independent Scotland.”
And the Spanish Government say that Spain WILL NOT veto Scotland’s entry but they did claim that we must leave and re-apply.
But that’s o.k. if they insist upon it then we tell them we are not going to bother re-applying and will just make other arrangements with more friendly neighbours.
” … 3. the bbc has said europe would block any eu application by an independent Scotland.
That’s fine but we will block the EU from Scottish Fishing Grounds and set about making treaty with North Sea rim Countries in a North Sea community in opposition to the EU.
” … 4. andrew neil has said that an independent scotland would have to join a very long queue behind turkey.
There simply is no queue. Did East Germany end up behind a queue?
In practice all the EU needs do is rule that the United Kingdom is exactly what it claims to be – A Kingdom composed of only two equally sovereign kingdoms and that one voted to leave and the other voted to remain.
The ECJ is currently considering the case put before it by a cross-party group of Scottish elected to office people and has thus already rejected the UK Government’s claims of sovereignty over Scotland’s legal system. If they had rejected the Scottish claims they would have been accepting that Westminster was sovereign over Scotland – but they rejected the Westminster claim and accepted the Scottish claim.
@Richard Hunter
I think you make valid points. These commentators try to carve out a niche spot for themselves. However, there is no status quo. There is no safe, risk-free option any more.
Even Deerin has admitted to a wobble so he has been beaten to the ‘thinking’ Yoon who may change his mind spot. With KFarq finally taking off his UJ specs and seeing the Tories for what they are, Massie has to plough that overworked terrain for what its worth. Daisley has nailed it in being vicious, nasty and myopic so Massie is stuck pushing his supposedly ‘reasonable Yoon’viewpoint which is looking more deluded by the minute.
@Josef Ó Luain
You may well be right, he surely cannot write this stuff and believe it.
Surely Massie must have heard of the Macrone report and why it was hidden from us by people of his ilk ??? Or maybe he thinks we have not heard of it
The good Friday agreement and power sharing in NI mean that it’s circumstances are clearly different from Scotland. NI is currentLY in EU and covered by the good Friday agreement. This is a false equivalent to Scotland that would be out of the EU if it became independent.
Big assumptions on being in the EU clash with the other big assumption that will be using the pound.
Gonna stick my flag up for selling the notion to England that the post apocalyptic wasteland of Brexit which awaits them MIGHT be made easier to survive if they were urgently to consider tripartite negotiations between Scotland, England and Europe, with the primary objective of creating a quasi-Continuer status for an Indy Scotland to remain a sovereign member of the EU, England to leave as it’s heart desires, but to cite the history of unitary trading conditions of the UK as justification for Scotland having a unique Customs arrangement whereby England could secure a degree of meaningful trade with the EU.
In essence, the deal would mean Scotland essentiallly being the same as Northern Ireland, (Honourary EU Membership with bespoke conditions) only in Scotland’s case, the EU Conditions would not be honourary but binding, with the watershed of sovereignty sitting on the other side of the fence. Rather than UK Sovereignty abiding by EU rules, it would be Scotland’s Sovereignty and EU Membership Rules prevailing over a unique customs zone, like Northern Ireland, where trade was permissible if parallel standards were fully complaint. For example, the English might not be bound by the ECJ jurisdiction directly, but have the face saving “concession” that it could be bound to a mutual respect of Scots and English Law, where of course Scots Law would be under ECJ jurisdiction.
Everybody wins. The EU secures a portion of UK trade turnover without the disruptive nuisance of UK obstructiveness, England gets a Free Trade Agreement with Europe of sorts, channelled through Scotland and made compliant with Scottish standards and laws, (EU standards but by a different name), and Scotland gets an amenable divorce settlement actually welcomed with England, cooperation bought for the price of being a Customs intermediary between Europe and Mainland Britain.
Yes of course, Westminster is going to baulk at the prospect of losing Scotland’s resources, but the sober up shot for that little nightmare is that faced with a resurgent Scottish political identity, England might very well be losing those resources anyway. In the current proceedings, you have to believe that Westminster will be pragmatic enough to understand what a losing hand looks like.
Scotland MUST secure ownership and recognition of our Constitutional Sovereignty and STOP this terribly nice “disinterested bystander” Malarkey. Carpe Diem. Get in there and sieze the goddamned Sovereignty and make it ours. Do that one thing, and we change EVERYTHING.
Take command of our Constitutional Sovereignty and beat the shite out Westminster’s dysfunctional flat tyre deal with Europe on the grounds that Westminster does NOT dictate what happens to Scotland because the people of Scotland are Sovereign, – not the Parliament of a third country.
Westminster is shortly going to be desperate for a way out of imminent disaster. We Scots can take what is ours and make them listen, or we can drown beside them in the cess pit whirlpool which they created.
If Nicola Sturgeon genuinely wants to be a contender for a Nobel Prize for her political acumen and global statesmanship, (I dunno which category, maybe Economics for saving the world economy from a wildfire conflagration started by UK stupidity), it is high time for her to augment the “walking soft” approach with the carrying the “big stick” approach, – and that big stick is Scotland’s Sovereign ascendancy over Scotland’s affairs and government.
Michel Barnier, if you want access to fish Scottish waters, then you must speak to Holyrood. Whatever you agree with Theresa is academic.
I think with Massie it’s a case of just not wanting to accept he could be wrong, as long as he can find a suggestion to think Scotland would be worse off as an independent country, he can avoid the inevitable conclusion. Anything but face the humiliation that his intellect failed.
rp
points 2 3 and 4 were tongue in cheek, hence the smiley face after each.
but more seriously, being pulled out of the sm/cu for any length of time will be very damaging to scotland, efta membership would be the fastest way to reverse the process.
justifying efta membership during indyref2 will be important, pointing out that an efta members are not in the cfp and turning the bbc lies against them and throwing them back in their faces has a certain schadenfreude
Jock McDonnell says:
I think with Massie it’s a case of just not wanting to accept he could be wrong,
————-
or that he knows for a fact that after indy, jobs for scottish political journalists in london will be rarer than tits on a man
“…clash with the other big assumption that will be using the pound.”
Where is this “assumption that will be using the pound”? There are several currency options for Indy Scotland. Where is it written as fact that indy Scotland will use the pound?
Something worries me over the Brexit deal vote in the HOC.
I read today that an SNP MP had said that if May’s deal is passed, an Indy ref would be called.
However there is a widely held belief that it will not pass.
So what would happen then? One would think Indy2 would have to be called then also,and with even more reason to. However, no mention of that, on it not being passed.
What am I missing here?
Gordon Brewer deliberately belittled our First Minister and elected Government for half an hour today, aided and abetted by the usual suspects. Hutcheon even took time off his ‘investigation’ into that No Smoke Without Fire Sex Pest Salmond to praise Treeza May.
62% voted remain, 45% voted Yes, but forget about tuning into the Brit Nat propaganda Unit at BBC’s Pacific Quay’s Anglo Stockade.
It’s not for the likes of you.
BBC Scotland backs Brexit, and the Five Wealthy Fishing Families,unconditionally.
What a tawdry amateur little piece of Blue Tory sludge this channel is.
Massie knows fine wel what he does.
That he cultivates this bored louche personna to establish that he is one of The Elite is quite deliberate.
Everything he writes and on TV is always delivered with aknow-it-all sigh and condescension.
He believes himself to be part of the Anglo Branch Scottish Establishment, aloof from the Common Herd whom he treats like uneducated oafs.
When Independence comes, he’ll be telling everyone that he was for Independence really.
Like Vichy innkeepers tearing down their swastikas and unfurling the French flag when the allies freed their villages and town, he’ll become a born again Nat.
@les Wilson
We need Westminster to play their cards first, as the FM has always said
We can’t allow them too much flexibility in future moves
@schrodingers cat says: 25 November, 2018 at 3:14 pm:
” … rp
points 2 3 and 4 were tongue in cheek, hence the smiley face after each.”
Yeah! I noticed – but you haven’t got the copyright of either the tongue or the cheek.
Now go figure out which of my claims are tongue in cheek and which are not?
:-))
Joking
“However there is a widely held belief that it will not pass.
So what would happen then? One would think Indy2 would have to be called then also,and with even more reason to. However, no mention of that, on it not being passed.
What am I missing here?”
If WM do not pass May’s so-called ‘Brexit Deal’ then everything is up in the air – no one really knows what the next move will be in WM so it would be premature, in that circumstance, for the First Minister to fire the IndyRef2 starting gun. If she did so she may then find that the very next day, May loses a vote of No Confidence and a GE is called which would, imo, scupper InyRef2. Or the FM could find that May calls for a Gov of National Unity (which I think the SNP would boycott). Or a vote for a 2ns EU-Ref is held and won in WM.
If this so-called ‘Brexit Deal’ does not get through WM, then things become very muddy indeed and it would, imo, be unwise of the FM to call IndyRef2 until such time as full clarity was obtained. In short, we need to know when WM has played ALL its cards and that there are no sneaky aces hidden up a sleeve somewhere.
And that is when she strikes.
Corbyn ….
“Labour will oppose this deal in parliament.”
So he says, but goes on to suggest …
“We will work with others to block a no deal outcome, and ensure that Labour’s alternative plan for a sensible deal to bring the country together is on the table.”
Is this just waffle and wishful thinking, or is he actually taking account of what Nicola probably said to him about staying in the single market?
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-labour-idUKKCN1NU0KN
Jock McDonnell says:
Yes Jock you are right and “normally” I would agree.
However, imagine a cliff fall coming. Westminster could, just write a letter to the Eu, ie Sorry but things have not worked out for us, so please take this letter as a leave letter, to be actioned immediately, obviously in our view no payment will be paid
(aka divorce paymments.)
Next day they call martial law and immediately set strict conditions on what Holyrood can do, “it will be shut down imminently due to our national security, and all of Scotland’s issues will be dealt with from the new offices of the Scottish office v Via Scottish Secretary of state Mr Mundell.” End of communication.
So what then?
@
Robert Peffers says:
25 November, 2018 at 3:30 pm
@schrodingers cat says: 25 November, 2018 at 3:14 pm:
” … rp
points 2 3 and 4 were tongue in cheek, hence the smiley face after each.”
Yeah! I noticed – but you haven’t got the copyright of either the tongue or the cheek.
Now go figure out which of my claims are tongue in cheek and which are not?
:-))
Joking
Ouch! What happened there?
The comment vanished but was printed while I was still typing it!
Joking aside there was a grain of truth in what I posted.
The EU, EC and ECJ certainly have apparently softened their attitude somewhat since Brexit came upon the scene but I had the distinct impression that they were much more on Scotland’s side than they first seemed to be.
It is a fact that their attitudes were somewhat restrained as long as Westminster was the official member state. The EU & EC will always, at least in the public eye, stand up for their member states as we see them do for the Republic of Ireland just now. They were also publicly silent over the Spanish/Catalonia matter yet the sitting Spanish leadership changed and the Spanish government attitudes certainly have softened.
Diplomacy is, as it says on the tin, diplomatic. Yet I’m sure the EU & EC were doing a lot behind the public view. Somehow I believe that the EU will fall over itself to keep Scotland as the legacy member state if indeed Brexit really happens instead of the fudges we are seeing just now. Water must still run under the bridge while we await the final outcome.
From an EU POV their ideal would be to retain the UK as a whole but Scottish independence will not allow that to happen and from the EU POV it would be advantageous to at least keep Scotland inside the EU rather than risk the loss to the EU of the Scottish assets it shares in just now.
Gus1940 the main reason freight 747’s use Prestwick is because they are carrying hazardous cargo’s which are deemed too dangerous to fly into Standstead or Heathrow et all. They have special cargo’s which are designed to blow Brown Babies to smithereens . The frequency of the flights increase any time there is International tension. One came in the other day , first one i have seen in a while , mind you they dont always overfly my village so they could be coming in every day.
A couple of more movies and its checkmate.
Clue, watch the NI piece that cant move unless the EU says.
Until we are independent.
Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.
NS can’t afford to wait too long if she wants the approx 180,000 Europeans in Scotland to partake in the next referendum if the article in the National is anything to go by. If there still is not even just a date for Indy Ref 2 by 1 April 2019, I’m worried about our side seriously losing momentum. Hopefully we’ll know before then how things are going to go down with Brexit. My hunch is a no deal regardless of whether there is a vote of no confidence or not. I also don’t think the numbers are there for a motion of no confidence in the Tory government so I don’t think a UK snap election is on the cards either. I reckon May survives but we’ll crash out with no deal.
Les wilson.
No point letting the enemy know ALL your options huh ?
Les Wilson says:
Some of the shrivel eyed far right loons, with fascist newsheet backing, fantasise about not paying dues.
It’s a non starter. The money is owed for commitments made. Reneging on this would turn the UK into a pariah state which no one would trust to do business with.
The media have hyped the status of the nutters way beyond their actual status and influence.
I agree, there are elements who dream of an English ‘night of the long knives’ when all the troublesome elements are rounded up or neutralised. However, I don’t think this group will get their way.
If May’s plan is voted down, IMO collapse of government and / or general election would be the immediate outcome,
Proud cybernat
Apologies, I misread, it says ‘used the same currency’ not ‘using the same currency’. The point doesn’t make since thorough, why would someone want to do trade with us because we used to have the same currency.
Sunday Politics Scotland
The British Nationalist Chat show reached a low that was lower than previous lows. Tories telling Scotland what the SNPs policies are with no right of reply for the SNP.
Can there have ever been a more one sided propaganda show. Of course the Bampot Ross Thomson had his say as did the weasel Hutcheon from the Herald. Leask and Hutcheon what a pair of slimy weasels from the Herald.
Lost count of how often they said the SNP would keep Scotlands fishermen in the CFP. Brewer has wee chuckle with his Britnat pals.
Not a mention of Clair Ridge.
CLAIR RIDGE
I found reading much of the previous I was becoming more and more worried that the history of the UK is in grave danger of repeating itself, all because of the UK’s establishments over hyped belief that nobody can rule the world better than the Brit Nat establishment. Unfortunately for them peoples across the world from India, Malaysia, Kenya, Cypress, Burma et al and not forgetting Ireland whose populations decided that they were perfectly able to rule themselves and were prepared to fight for their rights. Sadly we see the problems created by Westminster still haunt Brexit negotiations in Ireland to this day.
There will always be hotheads who are prepared to take-up arms and fight for Scotland’s right to rule itself and benefit from its massive natural resources. One of the finest things to come from the 2014 Referendum was the fact that it had been conducted without a shot being fired or a bomb detonated. Though there were ultra extreme unionist elements with their union flag waving thugs who were only too happy to try and stir-up violence.
You can only bend a stick so far before it breaks and the same applies to people. Take heed Westminster when you deny the people of Scotland their right under UN Charter to Govern ourselves you could risk being the root cause of another shooting war for Independence and one where you will have little or no International support, in fact I believe in such circumstances you will rightly be condemned.
If the deal passes, our Sovereignty of the People has been subjugated.
If the deal fails, as expected, its a no deal brexit and our Sovereignty is subjugated just the same.
Deal or No Deal = ZERO difference.
Then there is the EU Continuity Bill verdict, we win either way that goes.
As i keep telling anyone listening, there is but ONE way ahead for WM.
A Section 30 indyref, on Scotsland’s terms for timing.
Even WM trying to say “not now” is answerable with “actually, thats not what the UN says”
……..
3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
……….
Apart from the fact, “not now” also equates to subjugation and off we go on the dissolution merry-go-round again.
I would actually go further and gently suggest a Section 30 on Scotland’s terms is rapidly looking like the ONLY way there will even be an initial indyref (a ‘protective’ political dissolution clearly requires an affirmation plebescite).
I believe when things need to move, they will move rapidly.
In the meantime….popcorn.
It is not factual true to claim England is such an overwhelming part of Scotland’s exports. They more a middleman that has inserted themselves between Scotland and the final destination of Scottish exports. Holland could just as well or better play that role for Scotland if it was needed at all.
It’s like the case of Ireland where Brexiteers like to claim any Irish products passing via England as exports to the UK. Ireland can and will simply ship straight to Europe rather that get off ship at Hollyhead thus avoiding two sets of customs and a significant delay. Scotland can simply sell to processors and distributors on the mainland. It’s not like the English can do without Scottish food and produce it themselves or import it cheaper from the other side of the World. Not if they want a trade deal with the EU.
What they do now is like trying to say “you have to buy Scottish Whisky from us.” The importer can just say “well it comes from Scotland so could…..”
Rev Stu was fulsome in his praise today of Colin Dunn’s Indy memes. If you do Twitter, he is @zarkwan. Can I urge folk to visit his site http://www.indyposterboy.scot and have a look at the wealth of images that could be put on leaflets. Get a few of you together, find a good printer and go round delivering them. I use instantprint.co.uk, would like to use a Scottish firm but they are by far the cheapest I’ve found.
I have another 2000 to do but will probably do the bulk of them after the holiday season. I think once we get into December, folk will be switching off from politics, even with the Brexit HoC vote.
“Apologies, I misread, it says ‘used the same currency’ not ‘using the same currency’. The point doesn’t make since thorough, why would someone want to do trade with us because we used to have the same currency.”
I am fairly confident that I am not alone here in trying to decipher what point, if any, you are actually trying to make here?
the point about the list of scottish exports is that they are unique products.
eg,
most eu fish is caught in scottish waters, as rp pointed out.
most of the eu’s oil and gas is in scottish waters.
100% of englands seed potatoes come from scotland.
30% of englands stud beef comes from scotland (4% of the EU’s)
other exports to england are petrol (33%) of uk supply. water, whisky (25% of uk government tax on food and drink comes from whisky alone.)
englands exports to scotland are not unique. car dealers would simply source their cars from the same eu manufacturers, eg, bmw in france.
the same goes for food products, eg, tescos will simply source, hp beanz, heinz ketchup etc from factories in the eu that also make these products for 10% less due to no tariffs. englands trade with everyone, including scotland, will wither and die off.
@Harry mcaye
I didn’t realise Colin Dunn was indyposterboy (or vice versa). I see his tweets on Rev’s timeline, and he’s very sensible, a good source of info. So his posters are probably good!
Harry mcaye
Just got some of those soundbite cards delivered the other day, have been placing them in supermarket shelves, buses etc and am planning to get more to hand out in the streets.
Honestly, actually doing something feels so much better than doing nothing except complaining.
https://indyposterboy.scot/guerilla-cards/
https://thisisit.scot/
These churnalists are just tame jocks performing for their supper. Totally cringeworthy. The gutless deceiving their gormless peers.
Truth is that the slave mentality is still widespread in Scotland. My hope is that a majority have now thrown off the chains in their minds.
For Lurkers – people who don’t post, maybe a little shy or nervous.
It’s getting near Indy Ref 2, all the signs are there, and some people aren’t good, or think they’re not good, at campaigning. Maybe a little unsure of the facts (no wonder), maybe just don’t want to get into an argument.
But you don’t have to, YOU are all the campaign you need. I find people are surprised when I say I support Indy, I guess I can see why, I don’t go around with a YES badge, covered in Saltires, hands full of leaflets, waving my arms around and screaming at Westmonster. So I guess I can see why!
But the very fact that I support Indy and say so, makes people think, even if I don’t say anything more, and I usually don’t unless asked. I maybe kick things off by just asking a neutral question: “What do you think about this Independence stuff?”.
So that’s probably all you have to do to open minds and get people thinking “Why does he / she support Indy, they seem a perfectly normal person to me!”.
With apologies to people who do wander around covered in saltires, face-painted screaming about the TGories 🙂
This is an excellent disembowelling of the tosh we are going to be flooded with when Indyref2 is called.
Bookmarked.
It’s worth pointing out to the fishing communities that their voice in the independent Scottish Parliament will be c. eight times louder than it currently is in Westminster. Also both east and west coast will then have common cause making their powers of persuasion all the stronger.
Proud cybernat
I shall keep it simple for you.
If independent, Scottish trade with England will be harder than it currently is in the uk.
Just because we used to use the same currency is meaningless.
Northern Ireland is very different to Scotland due to power sharing and the fact it is still in the EU
Scotland is leaving the EU, so would have to rejoin, with unknown costs and conditions on us to do so.
Ok?
geeo says:
Obviously I agree with that, but let us remember who we are dealing with, and what is at stake for them.
@ gus1940: if exporting salmon via Prestwick is a non-starter because the salmon is loaded into passenger aircraft, then fly the salmon from Glasgow , Edinburgh and Aberdeen airports.
And the plight of the West Coast fishermen? Looks like they will have to land their catch in N Ireland ports for export to Europe, or register their boats in Ireland, North or South.
Why oh why must we have a catastrophe before we resolve to act? And Brexit is a looming catastrophe.
To all those people saying Scotland cannot have independence
because we trade so much with England and
we need to concentrate on being in the free market customs union
Etc etc
I say this to you
Scotland can have and will have independence
Scotland does not need to do what Theresa May says it should do
England can choose to trade with Scotland once Scotland is independent or it can choose not to trade with Scotland once scotlamd is independent and buy what we normally sell to England from further afield at greater cost for example from an EU country that will impose high tarrifs or from a country even further afield rhab EU such as one in Asia or USA or South America which will certainly cost much much more to import than it would from Scotland.
England can choose to refuse to sell Scotland the goods it normally sells to Scotland or Ireland can trade with Scotland as usual, if it chooses not to sell goods to Scotland we can buy more from the EU there is absolutely nothing that England sells to Scotland that Scotland could not get from the EU instead.
Scotland has five million people a lot of room and fantastic resources industry and education we don’t need England for anything.
If England wishes to put up a border with Scotland once Scotland is independent we will expand our airports and import goods directly to Scotland bypassing England and people will be able to fly to and from Scotland without ever having to set foot in England its very simple.
England can go ahead and cut itself off from the world but we are not going with them.
When England cuts itself off from the world it will lose trade ,goodwill ,expertise, cooperation and people.
Scotland will open up its country to all those who wish to come here to work ,educate themselves and enjoy a good free and wholesome life free of the desperate bitterness that England prefers.
Scottish independence is a certainty now.
Scotland sends 61% of its exports to the rest of the UK, just 17% to the EU and 23% to the rest of the world.
https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication
If the UK does indeed leave the EU and the single market and even if it gets a trade deal there will be trade barriers between England and an independent Scotland and if No Deal even tariffs between Scotland and the destination for a majority of its exports, England.
The USA is Scotland’s biggest non UK or EU export destination and President Trump is in no mood to do any favourable trade deal for the EU whether it includes an independent Scotland or not.
Terence callachan says @5-27
Well said, cheered me up no end!
galamcennalath says
thanks for your reply, however, as I replied to Geeo,
Remember who we are dealing with, and what is at stake for them.
Ie the last nail in the coffin of the English Empire is Scottish Independence.
There is little they will not do, rules and convention will count for nothing.We know by now, they only care about the elites who run the country, nothing will be barred no matter the consequences.They can be relied on to do the wrong thing.
Auld Rock You mean like the international community gave such strong support to Catalonia after armed Guards were sent by the Spanish government to stop an unofficial independence referendum and arrest Catalan leaders who declared UDI?
Democracy: Quoting from Prof Robert Tombs of St Johns College, Cambridge, author of The English and Their History;-
The government has not really tried to leave the EU at all, but to stay in it.
The idea that it is not possible to leave the EU seems to be the most dangerous affront to democracy.
If it is simply impossible for Britain to assert it’s legal right to leave the EU, it would be the end of democracy.
Now, just substitute in the above, Scotland for Britain, and the UK for the EU, and grow a pair.
@yesindyref2
Hear, hear!
After the first Indyref, I was reticent about making my support for Indy public but I bring it up in all sorts of ways now. At the till in the supermarket or just in conversation. ‘It makes you think Independence is maybe the right way to go now?’
Surprising how many people say they used to think No and are now considering it.
I have an ‘I voted Yes’ postcard on my kitchen noticeboard. Tradesmen and anyone to the house sometimes remark on it. Even if they disagree, I keep it civil – ‘Well maybe worth thinking differently now?’. Every bit helps. Still afraid to put anything outside though as I had a tin of blue paint thrown in my driveway during IndyRef1 after I plucked up the courage to put a poster in my window!
LONG HISTORY OF UK COVERT OPERATIONS
@RT_com: Today’s leaked documents are consistent with a long history of UK covert influence operations aimed at steering international decision making in favour of UK policy, with the recent White Helmets and Bana projects likely both good examples..
https://t.co/ym9JpJlzpp
HYUFD says:
Scotland sends 61% of its exports to the rest of the UK,
but unlike englands exports to scotland, none of which are unique,
the oil, gas, petrol, electricity, stud beef, seed potatoes, fish, whisky which make up 82% of scotlands exports, to everyone, not just the ruk, are unique, which if england dont buy from scotland they would need to source elsewhere.
if indeed that is even possible.
england produces nothing unique, ergo englands trade with scotland will be transfered to other eu countries.
indeed, this is what is happening to the uk at the moment.
So iEngland is going to do without iScotland’s food, drink, electricity, oil, gas, etc?
The BritNats have very little left to argue for the retention of their so called Union. All the assertions, promises, threats, and offers of 2014 have been reversed by events usually of their own making.
You can tell that the myth of a UK single market and the difficulty of continued access to iEngland is going to be one of their very few lines of argument next time.
Do I care? What will England be producing I won’t be able to source in iScotland and the EU? Cars? I doubt it!
@gala
my last count revealed only 3 unique english items
1. jellied eels
2. cornish pasties
3. yarmouth bloaters
innovative jams are a small sideline
One thing NI has that Scotland doesn’t is a way back into the EU that nearly half its population would support with the possibility that some transition status short of reunification might save enough face on the part of enough of the rest to make it happen.
schrodingers cat says:
You are right. Post Indy, if there is any sort of hard border, then it comes down to speciality.
There are loads of English products I buy and actively seek out … cheese and Wilkin’s jams and marmalade come to mind. But if the price of Indy is me giving up on my Wookey Hole, Tawny Orange and Little Scarlet, then so be it!
My wife has a Mini. So, she’ll need to buy one made in Slovenia next time. Would we notice? Nope!
HYUFD @ 5:29 pm
https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication
Every single statistic in your link excludes oil and gas production from Scotland’s EEZ.
Do you even know the value of Scotland’s oil and gas exports?
Schrodingers Cat galamcennalath Never heard of Middle Eastern or Texan Oil, Gas from Gazprom or Exxon Mobile, Petrol from OPEC, Electricity from the National Grid, Herefordshire beef, AHDB Potatoes, fishing from Grimsby to Penzance, Jack Daniels Whisky from Kentucky? Given the majority of Scottish exports go to England it is a myth to say everything Scotland exports to England is unique. Many English people enjoy Scottish products but if tariffs end up on Scottish products they can look at alternatives too
@Cat
Melton Mowbray pork pies. Mmmm, delicious and no nasty anti-oxidants (which I’m allergic to).
“Pork pies”, now who does that fuddy-duddy thing remind me of?
re the eu opinion regarding an indy scotland.
once indy, i have no doubt the eu would be falling over itself to facilitate scotlands speedy re entry to the eu.
once indy………..
until we vote yes, the eu will take a pragmatic approach and say very little,
we need to take this onboard and tailor the indyref2 campaign to fit this reality.
this is why alex also favours tying indyref2 to EFTA membership. it would enable us to immediately reverse the effects of brexit by rejoining the SM and CU
BTW, one of scotlands biggest exports to the ruk is the petrol made in grangemouth,(33% OF UK total) there isnt a single uk market though, all of NI’s petrol comes from scotland and they are still in the SM/CU
England desperately wants to export its arrogance, ignorance and incompetence to Scotland. Nae chance.
@les wilson.
I do not give 2 sh*ts “who we are dealing with”.
If Holyrood dissolves the Treaty of Union, to protect Scots Law and/or Scots people’s Sovereignty, then its a done deal.
WM do not get a say.
Feel free to run scared of WM, but i can assure you, it is WM who are running scared of SCOTLAND right now.
Leave your cringe at the door and get off yer knees ffs.
The resident Britnat – the one who promised to pissof and stop posting – keeps on posting his misinformation but every so often he puts in a potential threat of violence from the Britsh state to just remind us of what a Britnat scumbag he truly is.
English Tories still have the old Britnat British Empire mentality – do what we want or else.
Sky News Feed.
Theresa May says she will tell MP’s that “this deal delivers on brexit in a way that will protect the Uk”
That reads many ways, one being, trys to halt independence. No chance.
HYUFD
“Many English people enjoy Scottish products but if tariffs end up on Scottish products they can look at alternatives too”
So how many trade deals have they got lined up?
oil and gas is sold even before it is pumped, whether england wants to buy it from scotland or not makes no difference.
electricity doesnt come from the national grid, it comes from power generation facilities. about 25% of englands electicity comes from scotland, 10% from france. england isnt self sufficient in electricty generation.
scotch whisky is unique and already reassuringly expensive
potatoes are not unique to scotland, but the quality of the potatoes is 2nd to none. thats why 100% of english seed potatoes come from scotland.
the same is true for scotch beef, it isnt that aberdeen angus is better than hereford beef, it is due to the quality of grass and water the animals feed on.
eitherway, england isnt self sufficient in food either so will need to import it regardless of where it comes from.
fishing from Grimsby to Penzance
lol
there are no fish left in the southern north sea, it was fished out years ago.
btw, youngs closed there borders processing plant and moved the jobs to grimsby. all the fish processed in grimsby, come from scottish waters
“If independent, Scottish trade with England will be harder than it currently is in the uk.”
How so?
“Just because we used to use the same currency is meaningless.”
What do you mean “used to use”? What currency will iScotland be using?
“Northern Ireland is very different to Scotland due to power sharing and the fact it is still in the EU”
And your point is?
“Scotland is leaving the EU, so would have to rejoin, with unknown costs and conditions on us to do so.”
Are you implying that we won’t get to know those “costs and conditions” prior to deciding if they are in Scotland’s best interests before rejoining? What do you mean?
What we are seeing now is the desperation of the British nationalists and English nationalists acting out the part of the poisonous partner that has betrayed you from day one taking all your best for themselves and giving nothing back, denying you a voice ,an opinion,a say, continually telling you in public to be quiet whilst taking all your money and spending it for you on things they think it should be spent on and all the while behind closed doors being more and more threatening and abusive and when you decide that their most recent betrayal and insulting behaviour is the last they will inflict on you they shout at you as you walk out the door that you won’t survive on your own, they tell you that you are worthless that you need them because you are so weak and incapable of handling your own affairs they tell you that you have nothing of any value and that nobody will help you or like you that you are useless and will be on your own you will be alone in the world and will fail without them.
They threaten you as you continue on down the path to freedom and they tell you that you won’t get to retrieve your belongings then they scream at you that you will come running back asking for forgiveness but their voice weakens as they say it because they suddenly realise that you are not coming back, ever, its finished ,over , they know that all the things they have described are actually how they are going to feel themselves now that they are on their own.
You don’t look back you console yourself in the knowledge that you have done the right thing ,that you should have done it a long time ago, you look forward to building a happier more prosperous life where what you earn will be spent on things that you want to buy, you won’t have to hand over your money all the time and be told that you will get a bit back as long as you do what you are told and spend it on the things you are told to spend it on.
You will be free to discuss with others what you like and free to choose how you spend your hard earned cash yourself.
You look forward to the day when you have life the way you want it to be free from interference and bullying a life you have built in a fashion designed by you for you.
Scottish independence is coming Scotland is strong ,resilient ,smart, clever, fair and open to new ideas and new people.
Let’s go….
ScottieDog Even without any new trade deals Scottish products would become relatively more expensive for English consumers in such circumstances if an independent Scotland was no longer in a single market with England while English products and products from the rest of the world outside the EU would cost the same as they do now (given the EU has no full trade deals with the USA, China, India, Australia, South Africa etc)
@Dan Huil: “England desperately wants to export its arrogance, ignorance and incompetence to Scotland. Nae chance.”
In all fairness Dan, we did export Mundell to them, the boss of some posters here. I don’t blame them for taking a little revenge.
Scotland exports £30Billion+ (without Oil) £11Billion to the EU + EU grants and investment from ECB. £5Billion? Overseas. The rest to the rest of the UK.
Scotland benefits more from the EU than the UK Union. The EU cost Scotland nothing and brings benefits.
The UK Union takes £Billions from Scotland. Scotland has to pay loan repayments on monies not borrowed or spent in Scotland Scotland has to pay for Trident and higher Defence costs. Scotland has had £Billions taken by Westminster illegally and secretly. Thatcher – McCrone Report. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion has cost Scotland. Westminster has cut investment in renewables. Hinkley Point is a total waste of time and money. Westminster has ruined the Oil and Gas sector, ruined fishing, ruined farming. Taken £160Million intended for poorer Scottish farmers. As part of the UK Scotland and received the lowest CAP payment in the EU.
Anything Scotland gets in trade with the rest of the UK. £Billions are lost on other policies.
Taking Scotland out of the EU against it’s wishes is illegal. Non democratic.
Scotland in the EU would mean more trade with the EU. World trade negotiated by the EU. Less trade with the rest of the UK because of higher tariffs, Scotland is in surplus in food and energy. Self sufficient. The rest of the UK has a major balance of payments deficit. Scotland has a more balanced trade and less deficit. Less debt. All debts accured are from Westminster mismanagement and misappropriation. Scotland can borrow very little so has to balance it’s budget.
Schrodingers Cat So even on your stats 75% of English electricity comes from outside Scotland, as I said you can get Kentucky Jack Daniels Whisky which some may consider even if others want to keep buying Scotch, as you say potatoes are not unique to Scotland, Hereford beef will get you a perfectly good steak or roast, you can save Aberdeen Angus beef for special occasions.
The idea there are no fish at all in English waters is absurd, fish do not swim in the North Sea and stop as soon as they near the English coast!
Important quote from Patick Harvie in the Herald:
“ “When I first got here there was huge sensitivity about saying or doing anything outwith the strictly devolved competencies. With each session the Parliament has grown in confidence… being willing to say, ‘We are also a voice in the world.’
“The institution has been growing into what people campaigned for – a Parliament about the government and democratic legitimacy of Scotland rather than just the administration of local matters.” “
The tariffs will be on goods imported or exported from England and Wales because they would be out. If they are not in the single market and customs union. That’s what they voted. They are the ones wanting tariffs on imported and exported goods. Losing the financial trade. Finance companies moving for EU access. The nearest biggest market. Scotland benefits from EU membership.
May blaming the EU for migration. Lies. The migration crisis in Europe was caused by the UK/US blowing the Middle East to bits. Illegally. Supporting apartheid States and absolute, despot monarchies. Supplying illegal weapons to these States and allowing illegal bribery and corruption. Just a disgrace.
Scantioning and cruelty starving people. The Westminster unionists are acting illegally under UN rules.
In fact the whole article’s good:
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17254722.patrick-harvie-hails-growing-confidence-of-scotlands-parliament/
They keep telling us we would have to reapply to join the EU.
That is only if we want to, France and Spain.
My question, can we use the Scottish pound linked to the Euro ?
Until we are independent.
Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2018/11/theresa-may-s-deal-isn-t-going-pass-so-what-s-going-happen
This is a view about what happens next with Brexit
Just observation. Since the leave vote from the EU. Union flags have been springing up in England in gardens. Its getting similar to the USA with work overalls having union flag. I think the English are on a path to English nationalism that will only get stronger after Brexit. What an error the Scots have made in voting to stay under English goverence
Ken500 Most Leave voters want a Canada style FTA with the EU though yes even that would likely see some tariffs but minimal.
France of course played a key part in the bombing of Libya and Syria and Russia also heavily bombed the Syrians. Merkel invited too many refugees without sufficient checks rather than treating them in the Middle East. Macron now wants an EU army to challenge Russia, China and the USA.
If you are looking for work you do not get sanctioned
wull2 So you support Scotland ultimately then joining the Euro as well as the EU?
Scotland winning gold,
well done Scotland !
Sweden v Scotland – Men’s Gold – Le Gruyère AOP European Curling Championships 2018,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a5lWtZTcmU
@HYUFD
“ScottieDog Even without any new trade deals Scottish products would become relatively more expensive for English consumers in such circumstances if an independent Scotland was no longer in a single market with England while English products and products from the rest of the world outside the EU would cost the same as they do now (given the EU has no full trade deals with the USA, China, India, Australia, South Africa etc)”
You’re just making things up now. Relatively more expensive than where? You’re just clutching at straws now.
HYUFD says:
25 November, 2018 at 7:16 pm
wull2 So you support Scotland ultimately then joining the Euro as well as the EU?””
………..
Whether Scotland joins the Euro or not is a decision for our children and grandchildren. Our job is to get the independence for Scotland that will allow them to make that decision for themselves.
yesindyref2 @ 6.56pm
Would that be the same Patrick Harvey who features in this story?
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17245266.patrick-harvie-calls-for-indyref2-date-very-soon/
A story that has featured high up the running order of the Herald online all weekend
EU cannot force any country to join the Euro and has never done so, only sign up to notionally do so sometime the future which in most cases never happens.
Also Scotland is the only part of UK that has a balance of trade SURPLUS. Ireland had vast bulk of trade with England before joining EU. Post Brexit England can’t afford to place tarrifs on Scotland which is their fourth largest export market.
schrodingers cat at 12.37
“1. the eu has said that an independent scotland would need to rejoin the eu as a new state under section 49. Fact”
The EU has formally said no such thing.
Proud Cybernat
I am bit unclear if you are wanting your questions answered, but i’ll give it a go.
1 – trade will be harder as we will be no longer a single market. Regulation, currency, tariffs, physical or electronic borders, increased delivery costs, insurance, exchange rate fluctuation etc will make trade harder
2 – ‘used to use’ is a quote from the article. I have no idea what currency iScot would use ( does anyone ?)
3 – the article proposes the Brexit position re NI sets a precedent for Scotland. It does not. NI is in EU and covered by international treaty, iScot would have neither of these factors in play, so is different
4 – I am stating that no one knows if and when iScot would rejoin the EU, I thought that SNP were pushing a Norway model these days. There would be conditions required to meet entry criteria, and this cou,d include factors re debt, deficit and currency.
Happy to hear any reasoned argument against these points
Legerwood at 12.54
The CFP probably saved the fishing in the North Sea.
Pretending to be stupid.
The Lying Britnats on Wings are pretending to be smart.
@HYUFD says: 25 November, 2018 at 5:29 pm:
” … Scotland sends 61% of its exports to the rest of the UK, just 17% to the EU and 23% to the rest of the world.”
Utter claptrap.
You quote us Westminster compile figures that have long been disproved and furthermore those figures are used for bent accounting that anyone with a brain can see are crooked.
Up to 98% of all oil & gas revenue are from Scotland’s territorial waters internationally recognised as under Scottish legal jurisdiction but Westminster claims all of it as being from United Kingdom extra-regio territory.
Then they have the audacity to claim they credit Scotland with contributing only a tiny percentage based upon population rather than the correct geographic contribution.
What is more they do not pay Scotland that tiny percentage. They only use that figure to further distort the figures.
Like the Westminster Establishment you tell so many lies you don’t know what is true or false. I’m done with you and will no longer even read your lies and distortions and not even read your posts. No one can debate with idiots like you. You can get more sensible converse with a budgie.
Bye!
1 – trade will be harder as we will be no longer a single market.
Is the UK a “Single Market”? Can you cite any legal document that states the UK is a “Single Market”?
“Regulation, currency, tariffs, physical or electronic borders, increased delivery costs, insurance, exchange rate fluctuation etc will make trade harder
If we can presently trade with the rest of the world, why will any of this be a problem between Scotland and England? Doesn’t business always find a way to do business? Explain specifically why this would be a problem?
2 – ‘used to use’ is a quote from the article. I have no idea what currency iScot would use ( does anyone ?)
Well that was why I was asking you since you brought it up – so, if you don’t know, why even bring it up?
3 – the article proposes the Brexit position re NI sets a precedent for Scotland. It does not. NI is in EU and covered by international treaty, iScot would have neither of these factors in play, so is different
And if Scotland rejoins the EU or EEA – what then?
4 – I am stating that no one knows if and when iScot would rejoin the EU, I thought that SNP were pushing a Norway model these days. There would be conditions required to meet entry criteria, and this cou,d include factors re debt, deficit and currency.
“Could”? So you’re not sure?
Gfaetheblock at 5.15
“Scotland is leaving the EU, so would have to rejoin, with unknown costs and conditions on us to do so.”
Says who?
Slavers out in force from usual suspects.
1. We (Scotland) are not in a single uk market.
If we (Scotland) are waiting to re enter the EU (IE: OUT the EU) why would trading be any different than it is today ?
2. We (Scotland) could use ANY internationally traded currency we like. Hell, we can keep using OUR current currency, hold a referendum on what the PEOPLE feel happiest with, or invent the Scottish “gettitupye”
3. N.I. is in the EU, Scotland is not huh ? Dear god !!
4. “No one knows if and when Scotland would join the EU”
Hmmm….so….what about, iScotland does not actually leave the EU in the first place ?
Or…Scotland simply integrated into the EU as successor state.
Real world reality, once independent, Scotland will be in the EU the minute we say we want to REMAIN (62%, remember that ?)
As Robert says…no EU continued membership, take yer EU fishing fleet and feck off our fishing grounds.
Oil imports for EU become dearer etc.
iScotland is a dream member for the EU.
“Debt, deficit, currency” you bumble ?
What debt ?
What deficit ?
What about currency ?
At least try be original ffs.
Dog whistle bunkum right out the 2014 playbook of slobbering pash.
Dont bother wasting my time responding, we are done here.
I cannot believe that folks are yet again chunterring out the wholly untrue nonsense that ‘if you join the EU, you need to use the Euro’. How do we know it’s complete b*llocks? because the EU says so;
One of the five criteria for admission into the Euro currency, is that the country must have been in the ERM (Exchange rate mechanism) for a period of at least two years, and joining the ERM is voluntary. Aside from that it is pretty f***ing obvious that using the Euro isn’t compulsory, since Sweden and Denmark both use their own currencies. In Denmark it is the Danish Krone and in Sweden the Kroner. Oh, and then their is the biggest freaking obvious clue of all – the UK!
So if you hear anybody feeling us that entry to the EU would mean we’d need to adopt the Euro, feel free to laugh at them. It was a ‘better together’ lie (Like a total, in your face, piece of utter unfounded bullish*t, type of lie) in 2014, and it is a lie in 2018.
However, having said all that, once brexit kicks in, the Pound Sterling, won’t be worth much, so we might need a separate currency for the newly independent oil rich scotland eventually anyway, unless we want to be dragged down by the brexit countries (England and Wales).
I’m a unionist or at least I was. Brexit changed everything for me.
I could have lived with the vote, it wouldn’t have been easy but I could have talked myself round. What I couldn’t live with was the absolute contempt shown towards Scotland, we literally didn’t matter, we were an irrelevance, England had spoken.
I didn’t abandon unionism in an hour or a day, rather it was conversion by a thousand cuts. I’m now a member of the SNP and, while I’m impatient for independence, I’m content to leave it in the hands of our FM, I consider us lucky to have her.
I look forward to the day Scotland takes her place in the family of nations that is the EU. I look forward to the day we have a real say in what happens to us, when our rights as a country can’t be removed at a whim. If the cost of that is signing up to the Euro, then I regard it as a small price to pay. Ireland’s children ran barefoot in the first years after independence and we are bleating about currency.
As to hard borders, I’d rebuild Hadrians Wall with my bare hands rather than continue like a cowered dog at Englands feet
Oh and just for the record, some non – EU countries use the Euro, and some have their own currencies pegged to the value of the Euro.
“Scotland’s choice is Brexit OR independence.”
Scot Finlayson (16th January 2017 – “The flexibility of figures”):
“@Rock,
“but she must show a certain % of Scottish voters that she tried her best to protect Scotland from the apocalyptic shitstorm that is coming UK`s way from our removal from EU”
Rock (16th January 2017 – “The flexibility of figures”):
“That is the dishonest part.
She has been flogging a dead horse.
She should have said clearly following the Brexit result that the only way for Scotland to become a member of the EU was by becoming an independent country.
Talk straight to the Scottish people and they will listen.
We have wasted seven months for nothing.”
Brexit means Brexit. Amen.
HYUFD at 5.45
Ah. The “no Maltesers for an independent Scotland” distortion.
Laying aside the fact that England arguably presently sends more to Scotland than the other way about is it your assertion that causing a border to be implemented between ScotLand and England would be bad for Scotland?
But causing a border between England and the huge EU market is good for England?
Please try to be consistent.
Talking shite in measured tones is still talking shite.
Here’s an interesting fact. When Ireland joined thr EU over 40 years ago over three quarters of its export went to the UK.
Now three quarters of its export goes to Europe and Ireland has just launched a huge vehicle ferry that takes over 120 large lorries and will be going direct to Europe.
An independent Scotland will quickly revert to exporting directly from the Forth and the North East (to the Baltic)instead of making its way down south.
The fact is the beat option for England and Scotland is both to remain in the EU and interact as independent members of that organisation
Question.
Whats wrong with iScotland using the Euro exactly ?
If we choose to do so, why would that be seen as a bad thing ?
Better that the likely *iEngland 75 cents valued sh*te-paper …sorry…Pound sterling.
*iEngland, because remember, you cant be in a Union and be independent.
Why does WM want to leave one Union (EU) and are determined to stay in another (Uk union) ?
Oh wait….yet another standard that “does not apply” unless it is to Scotland.
Deary me.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
25 November, 2018 at 8:07 pm
Gfaetheblock at 5.15
“Scotland is leaving the EU, so would have to rejoin, with unknown costs and conditions on us to do so.”
Says who?
——
agree with this, the individually negotiated deals the eu had are a thing of the past. the eu is willing to accept integration of eu countries at different rates, eg, some are in the euro, others are not etc, but the uk type deal is something they wont even consider. see switzerland presently being pressured into joining the EEA like the other 3 EFTA members.
so an indy scotland would only have 3 options. efta/eea, eu with no euro or full eu membership with the euro.
not really anything to negotiate, we know what the terms and conditions of each are.
i believe that the 62% remain vote in scotland gives the SG the mandate to argue for and to automatically take an indy scotland back into the sm/cu via efta membership. in deed, i believe this is imperative
i do not think it gives them the mandate to take an indy scotland into full eu membership with the euro. further eu integration for an indy scotland would probably need a further referendum on the issue after we are indy.
for what it is worth, i believe we should adopt the euro, i also believe an indy scotland should push for an eu army.
Does Rock have any thoughts on Gibraltar?
Rock (15th November – “The question begged”):
“I can say with 100% confidence that gutless Establishment lawyer Nicola will not hold an independence referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster.
And it goes without saying that Westminster is not going to grant a Section 30 order before 2640 AD.
Does a single poster here have the guts to go on the record and state that Nicola will definitely hold an independence referendum without a Section 30 order from Westminster?
If so, when?
Robert Louis at 8.17
No need for a complicated discussion about that. Just ask anybody who says so if the have change in their pocket for a Ten Euro note.
Dave McEwan Hill at 807pm,
Exactly, the EU has said no such thing. Indeed, considering the totally sh*tty way England has talked of them and to them for the last two years, I would imagine they would be very happy to retain Scotland within the EU, whilst deftly giving Westminster the finger. Westminster has no friends in the EU – aside from Nigel Farage, but nobody except the lying, propagandist, state-controlled BBC and state puppet Andrew Marr takes him seriously.
Regarding trade, the problem is, that much of Scottish produce is shipped to other countries via England, so if you do not consider how these things work, it is very easy to perpetrate the lie that the bulk of Scotland’s trade is with England. It simply is not true, it is just that Scottish exports travel VIA England. They don’t actually all stop in England. I mean seriously, we produce a lot of whisky, and the equivalent of 1.23 billion bottles of the stuff was exported in 2017 – does anybody seriously imagine England drinks it all??? Of course not, but it is exported mainly VIA England.
Another sleekit Westminster piece of chicanery.
Well done Geeo, you have managed to surpass the post by proud cybernat, and that took some doing. The worrying thing is I think you both think you are right. A couple of point:
There is no legal doc that I am aware of that says there is a single market in the uk, but there is a de facto single market.
Do you believe that there is would be no debt or deficit? The growth commission was quite clear on this, you should have a read.
I shant continue, as I expect I will only prompt more rage from you. But cybernat, you have answered one of your own questions, business will also find a way, but finding a way takes effort, and that is why it will be harder.
Rock
Our Queen Nicola and her army of very professional advisors will have the date for IndyRef2 worked out to the very last precise detail.
So any questions regarding exact dates etc…should be directed at the Scottish Government.
In Nicola we trust.
Dave McEwan Hill at 836pm,
Exactly, You say in a few words, what I say in many. Most useful argument, I will use myself in future. No complicated explanation needed.
geeo at 8.29
Exactly.
The Euro started at 67P. It is a far more successful currency than sterling.
Soon, we shall have our FM’s letter to our nation.
Had to laugh at Cooper Blooper in Saturday’s Daily Hail.
He exists only to be the Scottish Based harbinger of doom in portraying Scotland under the SNP as a great deal worse than a bombed out Syrian City.
His big SNP Bad story is how Independence supporters/SNP Members
have forced the wonderful Scotsman Newspaper into liquidation.
It seems that all they did was as awkward questions of our duly elected First Minister and us non compliant citizens of England’s last colony wouldn’t pay to read their crap.
I can see as one of those TV appeals: Please spend just £1 per day to read fantasy fascist diatribe, and save the job of a rabid Quiz Thing.
(Please note WoS does not condone the word of used to describe those who collaborate with the enemy)
Spot on Muscleguy @ 12.49. Well said. Should we say: Spoken like a true Stewartonian …?
Ye’ve a guid heid under yer bunnet – presuming you’re still wearin it, oot there in NZ …
Wageslave @ 8.19
Well welcome aboard.
Tis a sad fact that when a “partner” in a Union has power over the other partner,and doesn’t see an equal partnership.Then sooner or later they will indeed abuse that power. For many (probably like yourself) the UK Union despite it’s past was bearable within the EU. Because within the Eu the UK had to sort of behave.
Brexit has shone a light on just how unfair and unworkable the UK Union is…. Westminster thinks it can pull rank,and is attempting to do so.
This puts the 1707 Treaty arrangements beyond bearing,and I’m glad you had the wherewithal to have seen it,tell as many as you think you can help see it too… we can get out of this unfair Treaty and move on to better things,all we need is for the 21st century Scots to see that the 17th century Union has had it day and No Union is much better than a Bad Union!
………….
“There is no legal doc that I am aware of that says there is a single market in the uk, but there is a de facto single market”.
………..
Oh dear…!! Actually hilarious.
Poorless wi laughter.
dave, an indy scotland will have to re apply for eu membership. this is the eu official position
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-to-join-eu-commission-says
btw, kirsty hughes is an indy supporter.
we cannot continue promise people that which is not in our power to grant. we did that in 2014 and lost. we need to accept that the eu’s position regarding scotland will change the moment we vote yes, but the indyref2 campaign must be built on the ground we presently occupy. and that is that an indy scotland will need to apply as a new member.
this is the article where nicolas spokesperson, acknowledges the eu official position
An independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU, a senior official in Brussels has said, complicating Nicola Sturgeon’s plans for a second independence referendum.
A European commission spokesman indicated that any newly independent country would have to negotiate to join, referring to the position adopted by the former commission president José Manuel Barroso.
During an interview in 2012, Barroso said : “For European Union purposes, from a legal point of view, it is certainly a new state. If a country becomes independent it is a new state and has to negotiate with the EU.”
Asked about the Scottish first minister’s latest announcement , in which she said she would seek a second independence vote between autumn 2018 and spring 2019, an EU spokesman referred back to the 2012 statement . “The Barroso doctrine, would that apply? Yes that would apply, obviously ,” he said.
The challenges for Sturgeon and her strategy of staging an independence vote before the UK signs its Brexit deal increased further after the Nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg, confirmed Scotland could only apply to join the defence alliance after it had legally split from the UK.
Stoltenberg told Sky News the rest of the UK would remain a Nato member if Scotland voted for independence. “A new independent state has to apply for membership and then it is up to 28 allies to decide whether we have a new member,” he said.
That raises significant questions for both the Scottish and UK governments over the status and future of the Trident nuclear submarine system, which is based on the Clyde, and UK airbases in Scotland.
The independence movement has made evicting Trident from Scotland a key campaigning priority but the Scottish National party’s official policy is to retain Nato membership. That may force Nato to also agree to transitional arrangements if Scotland votes for independence.
The European commission and Nato statements, which directly echo the stance taken by both before the independence referendum in 2014, are likely to be seized on by pro-UK campaigners as evidence of the recklessness of staging the referendum.
Brussels insiders would not, however, expect Scotland to encounter serious problems if it wanted to join the EU. As part of an existing state, it already meets the entry criteria and i t is predicted it would speed past others in the membership queue such as Serbia and Albania.
“An independent Scotland would have to go through the accession process, so it would not be automatic,” said Fabian Zuleeg, the chief executive of the European Policy Centre thinktank. “As Scotland does largely fulfil the [membership] criteria it would be a relatively smooth process.”
He said it was difficult to predict how long accession talks would take, but he would expect “some kind of interim arrangement” while Scotland detached itself from the UK.
Kirsty Hughes, an expert on EU policy based in Edinburgh and a former European commission official, said she and other colleagues believed it would take until about 2022 or 2023 for an independent Scotland to join the EU, even if a referendum was staged before Brexit. Scotland would also have to commit to joining the euro at a later stage.
Scotland was likely to be fast-tracked since it would be in accord with EU regulations. But Hughes added: “It’s very hard to see it being less than three to four years [after a referendum in 2019], even going through the process pretty quickly.”
Sturgeon’s spokesman said the Nato and European commission statements were not surprising, as they exactly mirrored the stances taken by both organisations before, but that had no impact on the first minister’s preferred timing for a referendum before Brexit, to allow Scotland the fastest possible transition to EU membership.
“It doesn’t change what the first minister believes would be the optimum time to have a choice on this,” he said.
In her speech in Edinburgh, Sturgeon said Scottish voters had the right to decide for themselves whether to accept the UK’s Brexit deal with the EU, but if she left staging the referendum until after Brexit, that would increase the time in which Scotland lived with the economic and social damage that would result.
“Doing nothing at this stage – in many ways, the easiest thing for me to do – would mean letting Scotland drift through the next two years, with our fingers crossed, simply hoping for the best,” she said.
The Scottish government would face some difficult EU negotiations, not least over the politically sensitive issue of fishing. Scottish industry groups have welcomed Brexit as a chance to break away from the common fisheries policy.
But the currency could be the biggest headache. The British government’s veto on Scotland using the pound in a currency union with the UK helped to sink the 2014 bid for independence. In theory all new EU member states sign up to join the euro, although the eurozone crisis has taken the pressure off euro non-joiners, such as Poland, to move in this direction.
Scotland would also struggle to pick up the special perks currently enjoyed by the UK, such as a rebate on EU payments. “From the Scottish side, it would have to consider what kind of membership it was seeking, but it could not expect any of the special arrangements the UK has had,” Zuleeg said.
Officials stress that membership talks could not begin until Scotland was an independent country – a position underscored by EU leaders.
The Spanish prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, made it clear in the days following the Brexit referendum that “if the UK leaves, Scotland leaves”. Spain has long feared a vote to split the UK would boost Catalan separatists.
But the mood has softened since the Brexit vote. European politicians and diplomats are more sympathetic to Scotland and Madrid is thought unlikely to use its power to veto the EU hopes of a country that ticks the membership boxes.
A senior member of Rajoy’s ruling centre-right party told BBC Scotland last week that Spain would not seek to veto an independent Scotland. “If you are thinking about Catalonia the situation is very, very, very different to the Scottish situation,” said Esteban González Pons, a Spanish member of the European parliament.
Zuleeg said the EU should be making contingency plans for the “realistic chance” that Scotland would vote to leave the UK and apply for EU membership.
“If the Scottish population voted for independence because they wanted to stay in the EU the last thing the EU should do is to slam the door in their faces,” he said. “Having a country join would be a very positive signal for the EU … and a signal for those pushing EU disintegration.”
Westminster and the Union has not yet begun to turn its guns on Scotland. What we have had so far us shrapnel from a different engagement.
Once they have Scotland in the room, locked the door and turned around, the beating will be unlike anything ever seen under Thatcher. There is no language from Unionists, including those posting on here, other than the rhetoric of vindictiveness and punishment. No one is pushing the benefits of Union. They think they are, believe they are, but do not hear their own language. It’s not what the Union can do for you, it’s what the Union will do to you.
There can be levelled a similar accusation of retributory language from some in the Indy camp. It’s only Independence, nobody is supposed to be handing a beating to anyone. The beatings are supposed to stop… Well maybe after morale improves.
@Dave McEwan Hill says: 25 November, 2018 at 7:47 pm:
” … “1. the eu has said that an independent scotland would need to rejoin the eu as a new state under section 49. Fact”
The EU has formally said no such thing.”
Correct, Dave and the only such statement I can recall came only from Spain, (speaking only as Spain), when they made the official statement that Spain would not veto Scotland from EU membership but they did, in the same statement, say that Scotland would have to leave and reapply.
I’d venture a guess that Spain would do a rather rapid about face on that statement when an newly independent Scotland told them to get their entire fishing fleet, (by far the biggest in the EU), out of Scotland’s territorial waters until Scotland was actually in the EU but that Scotland had other alternatives than the EU and if EU member states were anti-Scottish we would consider those other options. After all we are closer to our Scandinavian neighbours than we are to the south of England and the countries just over the channel.
@DMH
I well remember those 67p years, i travelled all over EU countries on the cheap on family holidays, twice a year minimum.
That would get you ONE holiday for same price just about when factoring in the stagnant wage growth here and the crashing pound.
Then of course, there was $2.5 at least, to the Pound.
Changing your money to Euro’s at home, then from Euro’s to local closed currencies like Tunisian Dinar, helped extract even better exchange rates as Tunisia wanted Dollars and Euro’s over GBP’s.
Travelled all over North Africa as well at the time.
£1 = $1.28 now. Actually HALF what you used to get.
Sterling is a joke. I would happily use the Euro.
geeo says:
1. We (Scotland) are not in a single uk market.
If we (Scotland) are waiting to re enter the EU (IE: OUT the EU) why would trading be any different than it is today ?
—————–
it is at times like this i wish wings would allow jpgs to be posted. im thinking of the national grid tie in charges map of britain, where the further you are from london, the more expensive electicity generation becomes. (im sure others have seen this graphic, help 🙁 )
the definition of a single market forbids this.
once indy, this wont continue. so englands electricity will become more expensive, rightly so, regardless of whether they are in the sm/cu
If anyone’s in the mood for some light relief, check out Mundell’s twitter feed. A seriously splendid array of insults.
@DavidMundellDCT
😉
Robert Louis Even if a minority of goods coming from Scotland to England only do so en route to the continent without free passage through England transportation of those goods would be more expensive for an independent Scotland as Scotland is further from the continent than England
Sinky If England is outside of the single market and the customs union there will by definition be tariffs on Scottish goods coming to the UK if an independent Scotland became part of the EU, though minimised if the UK by then had a trade deal with the EU but higher if the UK left the EU with No Deal
geeo
agree with everything you say about the euro, but if indy scotland wanted to join the euro, wouldnt we still need to launch a pound scots which we could then enter into the erm2 for 2 years before doing this?
if that is the case, and i believe it is, then for indyref2 campaign, it should be that an indy scotland launches its own currency,
the question of joining the euro is a question for an independent scotland. a bit like whether we keep the queen etc, we will decide this once indy. thats the whole point of indy, we decide, not treeza may
Robert Peffers Not all North Sea Oil revenues belong to Scotland especially as the Sea Map under international law is different from the Land Map
HYUFD says:
If England is outside of the single market and the customs union there will by definition be tariffs on Scottish goods coming to the UK
——————-
no
1. the uk will cease to exist when scotland becomes independent
2. NI backstop ensures that only england and wales will be outside the sm/cu. not the ruk
Dave McEwan Hill That depends whether you include Northern Ireland or not and Ireland has a sea border with the UK, Scotland’s only land border is with England
@ Gfaetheblock says:25 November, 2018 at 7:48 pm:
” … 1 – trade will be harder as we will be no longer a single market. Regulation, currency, tariffs, physical or electronic borders, increased delivery costs, insurance, exchange rate fluctuation etc will make trade harder.”
That is most certainly not a given – and anyway we might never be out in the first place. We are, after all legally a fully equally sovereign partner kingdom in the two partner United Kingdom and we did vote to remain. In which, as legally a fully equally sovereign partner Kingdom we have every bit as much right to remain as our fully sovereign partner kingdom has to leave.
… 2 – ‘used to use’ is a quote from the article. I have no idea what currency iScot would use ( does anyone ?)
Yes. The SG has is on record as stating, several times, that Scotland would use her own currency – the pound Sterling. They have not, though, stated if it would be tied or not tied to the English pound Sterling.
” … 3 – the article proposes the Brexit position re NI sets a precedent for Scotland. It does not. NI is in EU and covered by international treaty, iScot would have neither of these factors in play, so is different.”
Certainly Scotland is different but the Treaty of Union is also an international treaty. If it isn’t then we would already be independent.
” … 4 – I am stating that no one knows if and when iScot would rejoin the EU, I thought that SNP were pushing a Norway model these days. There would be conditions required to meet entry criteria, and this cou,d include factors re debt, deficit and currency.
Happy to hear any reasoned argument against these points.
Well there you go – reasoned argument based upon facts. The ECJ has already made the point clear that Scots law is indeed independent. Otherwise Westminster would have been able to win their appeal that the ECJ had no authority to deal with the Scottish claim made to the ECJ. The mere fact they threw out the Westminster appeal means the ECJ recognises Scottish sovereignty.
The repercussions of that are still to filter through and be used to Scotland’s advantage.
Dropped in for a look but HYFUD busy talking shite. I’ll come back later after his shift.
Dave McEwan Hill Tell Eurozone Greece with 20% unemployment, Eurozone Spain with 16% unemployment and Eurozone Italy with 11% unemployment how well the Euro is working out for them
@schrodingers cat
Exactly.
Power suppliers outskirts of London = PAID to join the Grid
Langannet = CHARGED £40Million to connect to the Grid.
The exact opposite of the Tory Free market economy.
Upon independence, that unjust anomaly (daylight robbery) corrects itself, to Scotland’s gain and WM’s severe loss.
If WM tries to act the proverbial erse, Scotland lets the lights go out down south. Not like we get the cash for the excess generation as it is now.
English voters: why are there rolling blackouts ?
WM:…….errmmm….
Schrodingers Cat So what? Scotland’s only land border would still be with England which would be outside of the single market and customs union and so there would be tariffs on exports from Scotland to its largest market ie England and Wales. The only question would be if England and Wales had a trade deal by then with the EU minimising the level of those tariffs
The Brits have utterly undermined their international standing with their Brexit shambles. Their policy of conceit and contempt for others has been publicly exposed. They are on a slippery slope which they are going to continue to ignominiously slide down until they reach their proper place in the world order. A crying shame it didn’t happen before their attacks on the middle east or the world would be at a better place.
We can’t turn the clock back but at least people outside Scotland understand better what we are dealing with.
Whatever courses of action the Brits take against us from now on they are on a !oser. Those Scots who back independence now will not lose their commitment and the more despicable the Brits become the more they will lose support and the more we will gain support in all civilised quarters.
The FM will continue to pursue a course of action whereby the contrast between a civilised Scottish government and the unhinged at the Mother F****r of all Parliaments becomes more and more obvious. She will tread the most careful of paths between the equally imperialist ideologies and ambitions of the Brit Tory and Labour tribes and lead us to our desired goal.
Robert Peffers says:
” … “1. the eu has said that an independent scotland would need to rejoin the eu as a new state under section 49. Fact”
The EU has formally said no such thing.”
Correct, Dave and the only such statement I can recall came only from Spain,
—————–
not correct. this is the eu’s official position regarding an independent scotland as acknowledge by nicola sturgeon.
where i do agree with you is the eu’s position, and spains, will change when we vote yes.
the point im trying to make is we still have an indyref2 campaign to fight, and until we vote yes, this is the reality we need to accept. we cannot promise folk things that are not in our power to deliver.
Geeo – so your contention is that the uk is not a single market?
IScot in EU with rUK would have maintained this market, iScot post brexit is massively more problematic. Stop laughing, and have a wee think.
HYUFD says:
Schrodingers Cat So what? Scotland’s only land border would still be with England which would be outside of the single market and customs union and so there would be tariffs on exports from Scotland to its largest market ie England and Wales.
————–
so what?
well, since england doesnt produce anything unique, the shops in scotland will simply source the exact same goods from elsewhere in the eu at 10% less than they presently do from england. result, englands trade with scotland will evaporate, in exactly the same way as the uk trade with the eu is doing.
scotlands exports, since thatcher destroyed scotlands industry, all we have left is raw materials, our only exports.
the difference is, even if you ban scottish exports to england, you will still need to buy them from somewhere, without food water, petrol, energy etc…… your fucked
and even if you do ban scottish exports, others in the eu will buy them. why do you think the danes and spanish are so concerned about the cfp? it is because 98% of langoustine and shell fish in europe come from scottish waters. bye bye paella and fuck off fish and chips
@Robert Louis says: 25 November, 2018 at 8:17 pm:
” … However, having said all that, once brexit kicks in, the Pound Sterling, won’t be worth much.”
That’ll be the Pound Sterling English, Robert.
The Pound Sterling Scots need not be tied to the Pound Sterling English.
As example – how many independent nations use the Dollar as their own currency but it is neither the USA Dollar nor is it tied to the USA Dollar.
Canada uses the Canadian Dollar, (the Canadians call it the Loonie as it has the image of a loon on it).
I believe Hong Kong also uses the Dollar but again it is not tied to the USA Dollar.
BTW: That was one of the points that had Westminster shitting itself when they read the McCrone Report. It stated that an independent Scottish currency would become so strong while the English currency would nose dive and Scotland would have to untie it from the English pound and take similar actions as does Denmark to stop their currency becoming too strong.
A strong currency has its problems – although not so bad as a weak currency – it still needs careful manipulation to avoid trouble.
HIFUD
Just think of all that lovely electricity exported to England where we would add a green tax for our future investment. Still cheaper than Energy from France post brexit. England is in a huge mess and yet continues to dig.
Scotland in the EU of EFTA will still be better off
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/the-president/en/newsroom/speech-by-the-president-of-the-european-parliament-antonio-tajani-to-the-european-council-meeting-on-25-november-2018
“Today, after eighteen months of intensive and difficult negotiations, it is clear that we have succeeded in maintaining the spirit of unity that the Union is capable of demonstrating in the most difficult circumstances. We should be proud of that, and we should stick to this approach, because there is still much to be done.
The principal architect of this unity among Member States and institutions has been Michel Barnier, to whom I express heartfelt thanks, on behalf of the European Parliament, for the brilliant work he has done thus far: for the even-handedness, tenacity and common sense which he has brought to the negotiations and for having kept his nerve at all times.”
The contrast between the EU and Westminster could hardly be greater. British? Among the lowest societies anywhere on earth.
“Scotlands only land border is with England”
Which diddy Britnat comes on to Wings to tell Scots that unknown fact. Astonishing insight by one of the great Tory minds they have down south.
Britnats are now looking at a map. Does this mean they will stop referring to England as an island. Probably not.
Does this mean they will stop referring to the UK as an island. Probably not.
Britnats do not understand what their precious Union is legally or geographically.
@Wageslave says: 25 November, 2018 at 8:19 pm:
” … I’m a unionist or at least I was. Brexit changed everything for me.”
Nice to hear from you – you are very welcome. However, I have to disillusion you – yon Hadrian’s wall is built well within England and lies several miles inside England and we really don’t want any of England’s territory as part of Scotland.
Well said wageslave @ 8.19. That’s the spirit that’s needed …
More and more former Unionists like yourself are no doubt seeing ever more clearly what is really happening. And seeing through the sheer arrogance and illegality, the total disrespect for the rule of law, that underlies our present UK government and all the so-called Unionist Parties.
As I said on an earlier post, the old Union is actually being torn up – has been torn up already – under our very noses.
Those running Westminster, Mrs May included, and whoever comprises that semi-nebulous and covert ‘Establishment’ which operates behind the politicians, (Mr May included, one suspects) … these puppet-masters pulling in all kinds of directions the hidden strings that cause the politicians to twitch this way and move that way, turning them round about and then back again, at whim … These hidden and unaccountable puppet-masters in this pretend democracy, this empty shell of a thing called the UK (but now no longer the old UK that you, wageslave, once loved, now become simply England writ large) … All that lot call themselves ‘Unionists’, and say they love THEIR Union, which isn’t the Union of yore but a fictitious thing which they have invented in their own heads to replace it.
They don’t know – and don’t want to know – what the Union that brought the UK into existence was, and they care not a jot about the legal foundations on which it rests. And they are riding roughshod over it. Even when they call themselves things like ‘Scotland in Union’ they have no clue what Scotland was in the old UK, and are determined to bring into existence a new UK in which Scotland is simply and for ever subjugated to England, as if it was a medieval vassal state (to use the kind of terminology they apply, without the slightest justification, to member states of the EU).
Your thoroughly Scottish an d thoroughly justified reaction to this chicanery, wageslave, is most welcome. I hope you will be able to convince many others from a similar political background to your own, even little by little, of the rightness of the step you have so justly taken.
Anybody coming to this site for the 1st time would get the impression this was the Fud blog
Spain and Greece issues more caused by overtly generous pensions than the Euro, amongst other things, although they are less generous now.
Unless it is being claimed the peseta returning would make it all better ?
Is that really what the nutter is trying to say ?
Then there is this damning statement.
………..
The lowest pension in the developed world.
At the other end of the scale, pensioners in the United Kingdom suffer from the worst deal of any OECD country, receiving just 29% of a working wage when they retire. To put this into perspective, the OECD average is 63% and the average for EU member states is 71%.
……….
“In our latest forecast, we estimate outturn spending on state pensions in 2017-18 to total £93.8 billion in Great Britain”.
………..
Now, that is £93.8bn to provide a miserable 29% of wage average.
Now imagine a pension of DOUBLE that (58%) and that is STILL LESS than the EU average by some way.
WM would require to find ANOTHER £93.8bn.
That would put the deficit up to over £130bn overnight.
Now, you may say, so what, pensions are not about to cost an extra £93.8bn any time soon.
However, £93.8bn is not far off what WM would lose from Scottish revenues post Indy.
The £23 plus bn from general taxation retained by WM, £10bn VAT raised here, the £5-6bn whisky and gin/food and drink sector, the currently £15bn oil and gas revenues (production expected to rise 5% next year as well as a near $20 hike in barrel price).
There is around £50bn just from 4 aspects, now imagine the corporation tax revenues for iScotland (huge financial sector…mark carney and his “north of a trillion-sterling” valuation) and a myriad of other revenue streams and indeed £93bn seems reasonable.
That is money WM will have to find overnight, so the more pertinent question is this..
What taxes or/and public services will be hiked/cut, just for WM to stand still at todays levels of crushing austerity ?
Nobody asks that, stangely enough, boy do non-Scots people have a shock coming.
Pack up your popcorn folks.
Arthur Thomson Depends who you ask, President Trump backed Brexit, the Italian Deputy PM Salvini whose party leads current Italian polls is also strongly Eurosceptic and wants tougher migration laws.
Schrodingers Cat Only a minority of English exports go to Scotland, indeed only a minority of UK exports go to the EU, at 44%. Though more English exports go to the rest of the EU than to Scotland while a majority of Scottish exports go to England. Of course England is not going to ban Scottish imports but there could certainly be tariffs and as Scotland would no longer be in a single market with England English consumers would give Scottish produce no special preference to those of other countries
HYUFD. You’re ill-informed.
1. Scottish goods on transit to mainland Europe would not be subject to rUK duty when on transit through England. This would apply only if rUK is the destiny of Scottish exports.
2. At some point Brexit rUK would reach a trading agreement with Europe. It simply has to. Scotland as an EU member would benefit from the same trading agreement.
3. If Scotland is not an EU member, then it would still be a common-sense position of rUK to seek a win-win trading agreement with Scotland for various reasons, but particularly bearing in mind that Scotland will have a lot of energy resources that are badly needed by its southern neighbour.
4. Scotland badly needs to balance its trade away from England. It should happen sooner than later.
4. Remember that isolated, non-EU countries like Norway, and even more so Iceland, are far wealthier than Scotland. Key is being able to set its own policy priorities and reach trading agreements in accordance with these. Scotland does not currently have such powers.
Gfaetheblock says:
25 November, 2018 at 9:36 pm
Geeo – so your contention is that the uk is not a single market?
………..
To quote Nicola Sturgeon’s response to tricky dickie at FMQ’s …..
YES !!
…………
It is a simple fact. Not my fault you are too dim to understand it.
Anyhoo…..i though iScotland would not be in tge EU ?
“Guaranteed way to stay in the EU..Vote No”- ruth davidson.
So, either you now accept BT LIED about Scotland being out the EU, or you have changed your mind as that no longer suits your narrative this time.
So which is it ?
ronnie anderson says:
25 November, 2018 at 10:00 pm
Anybody coming to this site for the 1st time would get the impression this was the Fud blog
Agreed. Wonder why the Rev allows the same boring info each week. Must put some folk off looking for information.
I see that one of those who keeps telling folk off for suggesting UDI ( which hardly anyone is)comes up with this:
‘As i keep telling anyone listening, there is but ONE way ahead for WM.
A Section 30 indyref, on Scotsland’s terms for timing’
Really?
How about this definition of what a Section 30 is:
‘Section 30(2) of the Act therefore allows the Schedule to be modified through an Order in Council. The draft Order must be approved by the Scottish Parliament and BOTH Houses of the UK Parliament before it is made and can come into force’.
If you ignore the fact that Holyrood has as much right to create on its own and pass a Section 30 as Glasgow City Council has. It is a devolved entity… an invention of Westminster and therefore has no power to challenge its creator. If you do go ahead and have a plebiscite…guess what?… a Catalan situation..not legitimate and not internationally recognised.
The only way Scotland can free itself is via Westminster and through our MPs…a majority of whom can sue for the dissolution of the UK if they have mandate from a General Election. This is where the Act of Union can only be challenged.This is the only way to get out of the complete mess we now are in.
geeo That is state pension only, other nations have higher state pensions because they pay more insurance for them. That can only be rectified by the UK raising National Insurance more.
However that same report also noted including private pensions ‘The OECD said the UK has $2.2tn in private pension assets, equal to 95% of GDP, one of the highest levels of private saving in the world. While the US, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Denmark had figures above 100% of GDP, in France and Germany, where state pension entitlements are much higher, private pensions are worth less than 10% of GDP.
Once the UK’s private pensions are added to the state pension, the average income in retirement for UK pensioners rises to just over 60% of former career earnings, just below the OECD average.’ Automatic enrolment ensures more are enrolled into workplace pension schemes.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/dec/05/oecd-uk-has-lowest-state-pension-of-any-developed-country
Of course you also fail to note the fact that the only
parts of the UK which pay more in tax than they receive in subsidy from the Treasury are London, the East and the South East.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2100345/Londons-taxes-prop-rest-UK-One-pound-earned-capital-funds-rest-country.html
Hi geeo says at 9:07 pm.
You typed,
“£1 = $1.28 now. Actually HALF what you used to get.”
I bought an app for my Mac today. The conversion that PayPal used was $1.23.
Did a fud just dribble mair pash ?
Buy Tena pads, give the people sitting next to you at the happy home a break huh ?
The crazy world of rabid british nationalism:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/brexit/young-male-dupers-fanboy-shamelessly-in-the-vicinity-of-boris-1.3710199
@bdtt
I will give you the $.05, goodwill and all that…lol
S Perspective
1. Scottish goods on transit to mainland Europe through England would have to undergo heavy goods checks at the English Scottish border, adding to the costs and time taken in transit.
2. The UK may reach a trading agreement with the EU but that would not rule out goods checks or non tariff barriers.
Until any deal is agreed there will be tariffs.
3. If Scotland is out of the EU it will have to agree FTAs with both the EU and UK, both of which will take years, in the meantime there would be tariffs with both.
4. I backed Remain but the UK did only ensure it voted to Leave the EU when 56% of its exports ie a majority went outside the EU. Scotland only sends 39% of its exports beyond the rest of the UK.
5. Norway and Iceland are not in the EU but in the single market only and all there nearest trading partners are also in the single market
@ ‘schrodingers cat says:
25 November, 2018 at 8:56 pm
dave, an indy scotland will have to re apply for eu membership. this is the eu official position
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/independent-scotland-would-have-to-apply-to-join-eu-commission-says
btw, kirsty hughes is an indy supporter.’
With respect – where is the evidence Kirsty Hughes is an Indy supporter. I appreciate and read her articles, which are extremely professional. However, she is an adamant supporter of EU membership (as am I) and an absolute apologist for Westminster’s appalling treatment of Scotland’s democratically expressed wish to remain.
She now pushes ‘the Peoples Vote’ with fervour, and as yet no explanation as to what happens if the vote comes out just like the last time – no safeguard or indeed, recognition for the Scottish Vote.
Craig Murray highlighted some interesting links Ms Hughes has on social media, which raise the question – who is pulling the strings, or indeed paying her wages.
I watched her give evidence to the select committee over Brexit and the opinion I formed then was, ‘an apologist for English exceptionalism, the nice face of ‘we love you Scotland – don’t leave, we can make it work’ but absolutely an English(sorry did I say that out loud)/British Nationalist.
I recommend searching Craig Murray’s blog re the above. Form your own opinions.
Kind regards to all – even Ms Hughes (good luck with the PV… if only you’d started a bit earlier. PS concentrate on England, seems like that’s the vote share you need to convince – your welcome.)
In the UK, who, pray tell me, is on the side of truth?
The government?
The opposition, the Labour Party?
The Broadcast media, TV, Press & Radio?
Who is genuinely listening to the voice of the people?
The Tory government has been engaged in a continuous campaign of lying, in its various forms, throughout the Brexit period of 2 years and five months.
When your boss lies continuously to you for that length of time, it means he is going to keep on lying. What on earth is going to lead him to tell you the truth.
The UK electorate therefore has a fundamental decision to make. Do they want their government to lie to them, or to tell them the truth?
Brexit is a test for this Tory Government.
But it is a bigger test for the voters.
How about if you have posted more than 10 times in the past month you give it a break for 1 week?
Scrodinger’s Cat, 12:37pm
Oh look! You did that thing where someone says ‘fact’ after saying something that just isn’t true.
@lochside
Wipe your chin, then answer this.
What are you gibbering about ?
You name me any scenario where WM refuses a Section 30 or tries to delay it, which does not breach the Treaty of Union, ending that Treaty ?
Name one ?
You appear to be claiming UDI is possible for Scotland, how do you figure tgat out ?
Money, Trade, International relations, Status, Defence,
None of this is the question, it’s all bullshit
The question:
Do you want another country with a system of government and a larger population over which you have no control to decide and impose anything it wants anytime it wants
All the rest is garbage and all the rest is what the slimy trolls want to bat backwards and forwards till the end of time to keep your mind off the one single important fact Scotland has no power in this Union, never did never will
Not one country who has escaped from the English Union of their Empire wants to come back, not one, why not?
The Scottish clearances: unaccounted for thousands murdered and cleared out
The Irish *famine* Over 100,000 in mass graves in every county in order to remove enough food to feed 18 million English people
This is the country we’re dealing with, these are the people who want to continue to take from our country
We must get rid of these people or suffer from the next phase in the imoverishment of England, it’s payback time on England for the rest of the world and the rest of the world would be more than happy to open their arms to welcome Scotland
Just as they’ve done with Ireland
Footsoldier Hows about well known Wingers STOPPING CONVERSING WITH TROLLS.
YOUS KNOW WHO YOU ARE IF YOU’S HOLD THIS SITE IN ANY REGARD AT ALL THEN YOUS WOULD DESIST IN REPLYING TO KNOWN TROLLS. HOW MANY TIMES OF ASKING BEFORE THE PENNY DROPS THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN OUR WELLBEING .
Britnat verbal diarrhoea is all over Wings. Britnats stinking the house out with their lies.
Not one of them ever comments on the Wings post at the top of the page. They are like leeches clinging on to other people’s posts.
Not one has anything to say about Clair Ridge. Liars do not like being caught out as liars. Thieves do not like being shown up to be thieves.
CLAIR RIDGE
Apparently T May wants a live tv debate with Corbyn as regards Brexit. I would suggest to the TV broadcasters that a Brexit debate with Scotland’s FM would be of more interest to citizens of the so called “United “Kingdom ?
Dr Jim
You are spot on.
Sadly many do not know the history of Scotland and do not know what is going on today.
It’s too hard for some folks who seem content to live under the rule of another country which steals and lies daily.
We need to tackle the lies and take back control of our very wealthy country.
The English state is in crisis it is now a very dangerous animal.
It’s a simple issue for voters in Scotland. Teresa May thinks this is the best deal on offer and she may well be right but it’s not good as staying in the EU so why oh why do voters in Scotland put up with a worse deal than present because of voters in England and Wales? The whole Brexit fiasco just goes to show how powerless Scotland is under the status quo but it doesn’t have to be that way.
Not as dangerous as Scotland.
Off yer knees ffs.
Dave McEwan Hill @ 19:47,
Just catching up on this thread, and must say that you speak for me there too. I don’t understand why he keeps punting this tired old line that is not only clearly swimming against the rising tide of popular opinion but is also self-evidently contrary to the EU’s willingness to hang on to us if it possibly can.
“Where there is a will there is a way”, as Barnier recently reminded us all.
Besides, there is an established and well-consideed legal view that the appropriate course for partioning states which are already within the EU is not via Article 49, but in fact via Article 48:
https://ideasforeurope.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/The-internal-enlargement-of-the-EU-Final.pdf.pdf
A much smoother and more relevant process.
Schrodingers Cat
That Guardian article you refer to is very misleading. “A European Commission spokesman”, makes it all sound very official, however the article is either citing an unnamed source ( figment of Severin’s imagination) or Kirsty Hughes- a former EU official. Neither is in a position to communicate the current official position of the commission. It’s all just gueswork.
Geeo
Such a pleasure interacting with you, the wit and analysis is fantastic.
There were two risks to Scotland remaining in the EU, Yes and Leave. Only the later came to fruition.
Simon curran 11.07pm. Do you really have to ask why a cowardly gutless region like scotlandshire put up with this shi*e. Sorry i dont have the answer either.
Dr Jim The 53 nations of the Commonwealth and indeed the Deal the EU has just agreed with the UK government would suggest your nat rants about ‘payback time’ are as rubbish as they suggest
It was typed, at 10:30 pm.
“1. Scottish goods on transit to mainland Europe through England would have to undergo heavy goods checks at the English Scottish border, adding to the costs and time taken in transit.”
So, no knowledge of “TIR”? Here’s a quote from the link below:-
“The TIR Convention establishes an international customs transit system with maximum facility to move goods:
in sealed vehicles or containers;
from a customs office of departure in one country to a customs office of destination in another country;
without requiring extensive and time-consuming border checks at intermediate borders;
while, at the same time, providing customs authorities with the required security and guarantees.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIR_Convention
Go homeward, to think again…
Ronnie Anderson at 1045pm,
Well said.
Oh dear, I see the cringing PSB and the southern wannabe imperialist are both busy exposing their respective psychological inadequacies again tonight.
How sad. How pathetic.
They truly deserve each other.
But we (thankfully!) require neither.
Much talk of England, for a pro-democracy Scottish website.
In the 2015 General Election 55% of England voted for far right parties (40.9+14.1 %).
In 2016 53.4% of England voted to Leave the EU.
That country has chosen a totally different path from Scotland. Fair enough, that is their democratic right. They need to be allowed to follow it.
What really does stick in the craw is the arrogance, entitlement, and exceptionalism which encourages them to view the UK as a Greater England where somehow the rest of us are expected to follow them.
Their rampant nationalism is taking them in one direction, we need to make it crystal clear we will take another, and soon.
Further on TIR, from:-
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/customs-procedures/what-is-customs-transit/tir-transports-internationaux-routiers-international-road-transport_en
“Although each EU Member State is a Contracting Party to the TIR Convention, the European Union is considered to be a single territory for the purposes of the TIR procedure. This means TIR can only be used in the Union for international movements, i. e. where the movement either starts or ends in a third country, or where the goods move between two or more EU Member States via the territory of a third country.”
Well done Geeo, you have managed to surpass the post by proud cybernat, and that took some doing.
In what way? What do you mean here?
The worrying thing is I think you both think you are right.
I haven’t given any view on anything. I am merely asking you questions or your position. How exactly is that me thinking I am right? Explain?
There is no legal doc that I am aware of that says there is a single market in the uk, but there is a de facto single market.
What do you mean by de facto single market? Surely the UK is a Single Market or it is not? What do you mean exactly?
Do you believe that there is would be no debt or deficit?
Aren’t debts and deficits 2 different things? How many countries in the world have a deficit? Isn’t the UK legally responsible for UK debt?
The growth commission was quite clear on this, you should have a read.
Didn’t the “Growth Commission” advocate that independence would, ultimately, place Scotland in a better economic footing? That was my understanding unless you can point to any evidence to the contrary from the Growth Commission? Can you?
I shant continue, as I expect I will only prompt more rage from you.
What rage? Do you consider someone merely asking you to clarify your position and to explain your statements with more clarity to be some form of “rage”? Explain why you think that?
But cybernat, you have answered one of your own questions, business will also find a way, but finding a way takes effort, and that is why it will be harder.
Actually I think you are merely answering your own statement here, that you are, in fact, responding to a strawman statement set up by yourself. You state that “finding a way takes effort” and then in the very same sentence you then agree with yourself that, because of this “effort” then “it will be harder” for business. Why would it be any harder for a business relationship to occur between iScotand and iEngland than, say, iScotland and Norway?
And England would be the “third country”…
Unemployment rate EU 6%
3.4% Germany – Poland
4% Denmark
5% Ireland
6% Portugal
Etc etc. They could all be calculated differently. Same the UK.
The unionist liars always quote the highest. The UK works the longest hours in the EU.
Spain has four months a year holidays. 1 month at Christmas. 1 Month Easter, 2 months July, August. Portugal etc are the same.
Most EU countries have higher pensions.
Daisy Walker at 10.30
That in fact is a misreprentation of the EU position published in the Guardian.
“European commission spokesman says Scotland would have to renegotiate, but Brussels insiders expect it to jump queue”
It was not a formal statement from the EU but an opinion from “a spokesman” very similar to the statement from Barrosso who had no formal locus on the issue either.The statement is predicated on the basis that Scotland is a “new country” seeking to join, Scotland is not “a new country seeking to join”.
Scotland is already in the EU and has been in the EU for over 40 years.
When the union between Scotland and England is broken both Scotland and rUK should have the same and equal legal status as succeeding states and would have the same requirement to reneotiate terms of their membership, not their actual membership.
Should Engalnd leave the EU Scotland could perfectly legally claim to be the succeeding state and I would bet the EU would accept that.
I would imagime a lot of work has been done on this.
Ken 500 Unemployment rate UK 4.6% ie below the EU average.
You are also wrong on hours worked, the Greeks work longer hours than the British, just two places behind the South Koreans who work the longest hours in the OECD
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155304
In Manchester he had formed a friendship with ardent Zionist supporters Simon Marks and Israel Sieff who were in the process of turning Marks & Spencer from a family business into a nationwide retail giant. Once asked to describe their growing movement they said:
“It is a fellowship of friends brought together by a common cause and sharing a common approach”, giving themselves the rather grandiose title of the “Manchester School of Zionism.”
https://caltonjock.com/2018/11/26/zionism-churchill-and-israel-history-revisited/
Brian Doonthetoon Key words ‘without requiring extensive and time-consuming border checks’ ie not no border checks at all and as I most Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK of which only a minority of goods go via transit through England
Derek Bateman here, giving Fluffy a well-earned boot in the baws:
https://twitter.com/DerekBateman2/status/1066766748907642885
boris @ 00:44,
And the relation of this to Scottish independence is what, exactly…?
Jeez, do we have to take on every single one of the world’s many intractable problems along the way to achieving our own rightful wee portion of sovereignity?
As if we don’t have well enough already to be getting on with…?
@cat
The key things are 1). The article is in the Guardian by Sevvie 2). Kirsty Hughes is pro-EU, not particualrly pro-Indy except to keep Scotland in the EU, 3). this:
“He said it was difficult to predict how long accession talks would take, but he would expect “some kind of interim arrangement” while Scotland detached itself from the UK.”
“interim arrangement”.
“as I [sic] most Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK “
Can you provide a source for that assertion?
England a parasite country now verging on a pariah state who’ll ditch Northern Ireland in a heartbeat because they’re a bigger burden now than ever and the panic ridden slimy trolls who defend it appearing on this site know it
All that’s left is Scotland’s assets and strategic land and sea mass to bargain away for England’s survival
Scotland can be in the position of every other country in the world who kicked them out but we can kick them out before they steal what we have left
Take a look at what they’ve done to the island of Mauritius
and the recorded response of Boris Johnsons phone call to the president of that country where England threatened him personally and threatened to trade starve the people of that country for daring to speak out against England
It’s all on record due to Boris Johnsons incompetence not to realise he’d be recorded, they can’t even threaten in secret
Once Scotland ditches England the people of that country might start to wake up to what they think is their leaders
@BDTT
Exactly, fuddy-duddy know-nothing in his usual ignorance. From WTO:
“Article V
Freedom of Transit
3. Any contracting party may require that traffic in transit through its territory be entered at the proper custom house, but, except in cases of failure to comply with applicable customs laws and regulations, such traffic coming from or going to the territory of other contracting parties shall not be subject to any unnecessary delays or restrictions and shall be exempt from customs duties and from all transit duties or other charges imposed in respect of transit, except charges for transportation or those commensurate with administrative expenses entailed by transit or with the cost of services rendered.
4. All charges and regulations imposed by contracting parties on traffic in transit to or from the territories of other contracting parties shall be reasonable, having regard to the conditions of the traffic.”
https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/publications_e/ai17_e/gatt1994_art5_gatt47.pdf
Get your paperwork right, pay the motorway tolls.
If the rUK wants to be in WTO it has to follow the rules.
Theresa May refuses to debate Scotlands First Minister because Nicola Sturgeon knows what she’s talking about, no May wants the old guy who agrees with her instead
Scotland has a positive trade balance despite being ruled/ economically raped by our larger neighbour. Trade will take care of itself as we have vast resources the world wants, special products exclusive to Scotland, the rest of the world desires and a highly educated populace. What we don’t have are basic HUMAN RIGHTS. Namely the fundamental Human Right to determine how we are governed. England decides that just now and will continue to do so until a majority of Scots express their rights to be NORMAL. To be HUMAN. Scots are Human beings. Scotland is a country and every country should govern themselves.
There’s no benefit to Scotland being ruled by England. There’s many benefits to England, but none for Scots or Scotland. I’ve yet to hear a single Colonialist explain what benefit, I as a Scot, derive from being ruled by England that would entice me, to deny myself and my country, DEMOCRACY.
Have the BRITNATS or Colonialists something better than democracy to offer?
Just a wee addition:
“The European Union (until 30 November 2009 known officially in the WTO as the European Communities for legal reasons) (more info) has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995. The 28 member States of the EU are also WTO members in their own right. The EU is a single customs union with a single trade policy and tariff. The European Commission — the EU’s executive arm — speaks for all EU member States at almost all WTO meetings.” (my bold)
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/european_communities_e.htm
I kind of guess the EU Commission, speaking for 27 members, would have some sort of influence if the rUK tried to break the rules of WTO, considering the numbers of PL registered lorries driving up Loch Lomond, let alone the A9, M74, M8 ….
If FUD is employed by Dover House, the quality of its agents clearly reflects the quality of its boss.
@yesindyref2
FUD isn’t employed by anybody he’s a failed Tory candidate with a lonely hearts add, he’s on the database, I thought you knew
@Dr Jim
Yes, but he works in London in “information”, and comes up to Edinburgh at least once a year to train people. Well …
OT – defence
The RN is to keep the Batch 1 River Class OPVs – the Forth, Medway and Trent. These are 20 knots, shorter than the Batch 2, can’t basically take a helicopter, but are useful, including fishery protection duties.
Significance for iScotland – we have half at least of the fisheries waters, so 1 or 2 could be useful for a starter pack, to complement our unarmed FPV Minna, Jura and Hirta, which could be upgunned a little (GPGs, miniguns, maybe even a 20mm cannon, maybe) for inshore, with the OPVs for further afield (EEZ).
Reason for keeping the Batch 1 OPVs by the way is apparently from the “Brexit fund” and patrol of fisheries after. Scotland has had fishery protection of our waters for a long time, responsibility moved from the Scottish Office to the ScotGov with devolution. Seems to me that Scotland has been more diligent than the rUK, one in the eye for Bertie.
A fine mornin’ tae ye Wageslave frae 8:19pm yesterday
I enjoyed your post, please keep posting, cheers.
Excellent btl thread, v well said geeo.
Less than just 4 days to go…
Marnin’ again.
It’s manic!
Have you ever noticed it on signage here in Scotland, or if you are somewhere away in mainland Europe and beyond… there are two European flags that site beside each other:
– One is the EU flag
– One is the Scottish saltire
Our buildings are built in partnership…
Look out for a sign.
1, 2, 3, Four Rooms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Pd2pGkq54
Ice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lllLnc58CoI
Ker-pow! ka-plaank!
Hey there Cactus 🙂
Rev Stu, you’ve been rattling sticks under bridges again.
Yeah, it will be good tae do international business together wae oor ain international European partnerships and beyond, the opportunities are endless.
Question… of 2 flags
1 Saltire flag (with ‘YES’ in the middle) Aye aye mail.
2 Union flag (with ‘NO’ printed)
“Put em ra gether an what have ye got..?”
…a powerful message.
Hehe mornin’ Ghillie, handing the candle over to early shift, it’s been such a hoot and much a well mannered evening may and dare aye say 🙂
Can U feel the confidence rising?
Aye ScotlandXX.
…..i
Probably been posted before, but this is good:
http://gridwatch.co.uk/
‘Cameron’s Great Scottish Oilfield Cover-up of 2014.’
”Official reports discounted the rumours and any expressing suspicions were sneered at in social media, for some time after. BBC Scotland’s Douglas Fraser and that other Tory, Murdo Fraser, played leading parts in this”…
https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/11/24/camerons-great-scottish-oilfield-cover-up-of-2014/
……………………………………………….
‘Is Spain strong and stable unlike the UK?’
…”The population of Spain is relatively dispersed across the country with no one region dominating in the way that England does the UK. The same is true of Germany and the USA with strong federal systems.”..
https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/11/23/is-spain-strong-and-stable-unlike-the-uk/
………………………………………….
‘Edinburgh 10th out of 100 global cities for job opportunities.’
..”Above New York and Berlin, Edinburgh has come tenth out of 100 top global cities, for ‘opportunities.’ Here’s what organisers, Movinga, say about their criteria:”..
https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/11/22/edinburgh-10th-out-of-100-global-cities-for-job-opportunities/
………………………………………………………………………..
‘SNP Government driving fewer Scots to serious drinking.’
…”In 2017/18, the alcohol-related stay rate per 100,000 population in general acute hospitals was 668.3, a 2.5% decrease compared to the previous year (685.4). There has been a general decline in alcohol-related stays since 2007/08.”..
https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/11/24/snp-government-driving-fewer-scots-to-serious-drinking/
Philippa Whitford: ‘Now is the time for Scotland to have the right to choose its future.’
…”In my travels, I meet many independence supporters who are waiting for a date to be called before they start campaigning but it is simply the other way round – getting a real shift in the polls would help put pressure on the Prime Minister by showing the demand for a referendum. We can’t just wait for that to happen by itself – we all need to make it happen.”..
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17254205.whitford-now-is-the-time-for-scotland-to-have-the-right-to-choose-its-future/?c=5x0chgg
…………………………………………………………….
‘May’s open letter to public prompts anger in Scotland.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17254202.mays-open-letter-to-public-prompts-anger-in-scotland/?ref=mr&lp=1
…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
‘Sturgeon: Almost nothing is true in this desperate letter from Theresa May.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17254578.sturgeon-almost-nothing-is-true-in-this-desperate-letter-from-theresa-may/?ref=mr&lp=7
…………………………………………………………………………………….
‘New Scottish ‘Atlas of Opportunity’ reveals country’s worldwide potential.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17254203.new-scottish-atlas-of-opportunity-reveals-countrys-worldwide-potential/
………………………………………………….
‘Macron tells May: sell out fishermen of face hard Brexit.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17255072.macron-tells-may-sell-out-fishermen-of-face-hard-brexit/
………………………………
WGD: ‘A Scottish reply to Theresa’s letter.’
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/a-scottish-reply-to-theresas-letter/
……………………………………………………………..
WGD: ‘Ireland’s superpower is independence.’
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/11/24/irelands-superpower-is-independence/
…………………………………………………………..
‘Ukraine navy says Russia ‘rammed’ one of its boats.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17255070.ukraine-navy-says-russia-rammed-one-of-its-boats/
Philippa Whitford: ‘Now is the time for Scotland to have the right to choose its future.’
…”In my travels, I meet many independence supporters who are waiting for a date to be called before they start campaigning but it is simply the other way round – getting a real shift in the polls would help put pressure on the Prime Minister by showing the demand for a referendum. We can’t just wait for that to happen by itself – we all need to make it happen.”..
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17254205.whitford-now-is-the-time-for-scotland-to-have-the-right-to-choose-its-future/?c=5x0chgg
…………………………………………………………….
‘May’s open letter to public prompts anger in Scotland.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17254202.mays-open-letter-to-public-prompts-anger-in-scotland/?ref=mr&lp=1
…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
‘Sturgeon: Almost nothing is true in this desperate letter from Theresa May.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17254578.sturgeon-almost-nothing-is-true-in-this-desperate-letter-from-theresa-may/?ref=mr&lp=7
‘New Scottish ‘Atlas of Opportunity’ reveals country’s worldwide potential.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17254203.new-scottish-atlas-of-opportunity-reveals-countrys-worldwide-potential/
………………………………………………….
‘Macron tells May: sell out fishermen or face hard Brexit.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17255072.macron-tells-may-sell-out-fishermen-of-face-hard-brexit/
‘May’s open letter to public prompts anger in Scotland.’
Another “Sermon on the Mound” moment?. 🙂
Ian Brotherhood says:
26 November, 2018 at 12:54 am
Derek Bateman here, giving Fluffy a well-earned boot in the baws:
https://twitter.com/DerekBateman2/status/1066766748907642885
He actually has a pair?
After Politics Scotland Tory love in yesterday Bbc Radio Scotland GMS has Tory Bertie Armstrong followed by Tory MP to dicuss CFP. That’s balance bbc style.
Theresa May, Scotland isn’t allowed to speak, so what makes you think we’re going to listen?
I’ve dealt with your open letter the way I deal with other trolls like HYUFD, I’ve scrolled on by without reading a word of it, and thus given it all the appropriate consideration it deserves.
Sinky@7:47
Belfast Bertie ex-RN is probably more DUP than Tory but I get your point.
” Theresa May’s deal with the European Union would hit the UK economy to the tune of £100bn a year by the end of the next decade, according to new analysis.
… and all in the name of English Nationalism!
And that figure is EVERY year. Contrast that to the current net annual contribution to the EU of £8.3billion.
Staggering lunacy.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/100126/theresa-mays-brexit-deal-would-cost-britain-£100bn-year
Jacqueline Minor, the European commission’s head of representation in the UK, said Scotland would need to formally apply after leaving the UK, although it could be fast-tracked because it already complies with EU rules and regulations.
Minor said the commission’s position on Scottish membership had not changed since the independence referendum in 2014, when it repeatedly said Scotland could not automatically take up separate membership just because it was part of an existing member state.
“The position in Scotland hasn’t changed,” Minor said. There is a clear process for any applicant country under article 49 of the European treaties. “That would also apply to Scotland. If Scotland became an independent country I think article 49 is the normal starting point,” she said.Minor said the commission’s position on Scottish membership had not changed since the independence referendum in 2014, when it repeatedly said Scotland could not automatically take up separate membership just because it was part of an existing member state.
“The position in Scotland hasn’t changed,” Minor said. There is a clear process for any applicant country under article 49 of the European treaties. “That would also apply to Scotland. If Scotland became an independent country I think article 49 is the normal starting point,” she said.
Links
https://news.gov.scot/news/brexit-deal-uncertainty
https://www.snp.org/seeking-a-better-brexit-will-help-us-win-friends-and-influence/
http://www.barrheadboy.com/scottish-prism-grousebeater-jason-micheal-25th-nov-2018/
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2018/11/yougov-poll-suggests-that-scotland-is.html
https://target59.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/wfi-women-voters-won-over-to-independence-by-key-policies-style-of-scottish-government/
Thousands of elderly and vulnerable people in Scotland are facing “worry and uncertainty” because the company which provides their care is running out of money.
http://archive.is/UCdr6
https://theorkneynews.scot/2018/11/24/the-scottish-crown-estate-bill-unfinished-business/
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/11/25/a-scottish-reply-to-theresas-letter/
geeo says
Your comment yesterday was uncalled for.
I am not on my knees,and never will be. It is Indy for me, and always has been.
I do think thought that we need to look at all possible things Westminster may attempt to do.
It is called planning! for anything they can throw at us.
There are not too many eventualities available to them.
However, they will always be sneaky and underhand.
So we plan for all possible moves they could make.
So what is bad about that!,and hey we are all allowed our
opinion supposedly.
http://indyref2.scot/its-over-for-ruths-tories-but-what-does-mays-deal-mean-for-independence
https://peterabell.blog/2018/11/26/mystery-prize/
https://grumpyscottishman.wordpress.com/2018/11/24/dignity/
An alien invasion may be better than no Brexit deal, it would also be a relief
http://archive.is/6IkTR
http://sceptical.scot/2018/11/politicians-need-take-bus-ride-reality/
http://independenceconvention.scot/max-wiszniewski-what-sic-fundraising-is-about
1/ I see some confusion about various different court cases related to Brexit. I’ll summarise here what the different cases are about, with links.
https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1066669837739540480
https://infacts.org/mays-letter-to-public-riddled-with-untruths-and-half-truths/
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1125/1013219-uk-eu-security/
Now that the UK is about to sign the withdrawal agreement – the next row will be about what the EU could impose on us during the transition period and it could explode over a proposed directive to abolish British summer time
https://www.byline.com/column/22/article/2353
Newstalk’s political correspondent Sean Defoe reports from Brussels on what happens now that the Brexit withdrawal agreement has been endorsed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CahNCt4bcU
EU’s Only Plan B Is Preparing No-Deal Brexit-Official
http://archive.is/8hvbP
EU leaders’ comments at special Brexit summit
https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d774e7755444f30457a6333566d54/share_p.html
Analysis: Macron’s blunt Brexit warning to UK over fishing
http://archive.is/5PBlR
More than 100,000 children in UK at risk of Christmas hardship
http://archive.is/TxMYj
https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2018/11/24/amid-accusations-of-bribery-theresa-may-knights-a-brexiteer-mp-who-didnt-revolt/
Brexit: snakes and ladders
http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87066
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/11/25/waiting-for-the-sentence/
”If I was a British citizen I would be deeply sad when imagining the life of my grandchildren’
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1066674110217027584
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk//top-stories/boris-johnson-could-be-prosecuted-over-vote-leave-350-million-brexit-claim-1-5792645
Brian Doonethetoon As I have frequently pointed out and you have posted no facts to refute 61% of Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK
https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication
Dr Jim Mauritius, a beautiful island I have been to, claim the Chagos Islands in the British Indian Ocean territories but there is currently a US military airbase on Diego Garcia in the Chagos Islands. Both the USA and UK are clear only once that airbase has ceased use will it be handed back
To my simple mind the Scottish budget is like deciding which radiator to switch on at home; We cannot afford to turn all their thermostats to the fullest and have them all, constantly roaring at their hottest.
So, do we turn them down and have all the rooms slightly above the temperature outside or some high, some low or do we have to choose which rooms we heat comfortably and which are left cold with 15 tog duvets on the beds if we can afford them or beds for that matter?
Mr Leonard; I cannot overspend on the money I have budgeted for my gas-heating or I will have less for my electricity, food, rent, council tax, clothing, toilet roll, shampoo, (although, I Suppose I could wash my hair with the soap I use for my hands).
The thing is as I am sure you will understand is that I only have a certain amount of money coming into my household and I can move it about my various household needs but whatever I choose to spend it on, it will still be the same amount of household income, it’s not rocket science.
In the words of Father Ted, “These are small, but the ones out there are far way”!
Yesindyref2 So as you confirm England could require Scottish lorries to have their details entered at its custom houses and be charged administrative expenses for doing so and impose reasonable charges and regulations on that Scottish traffic
Kaye with an e’s phone -in ‘how do you want your MP to vote?’
Galamcennalath A study commissioned by the anti Brexit People’s Vote campaign and based solely on Remainers forecast on the impact on services trade
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/summit-a-staging-post-on-way-to-more-dangerous-negotiations-1.3710170?mode=amp
“In Brussels on Sunday, Theresa May outlined the argument she will make for the deal, presenting it as delivering Brexit while protecting jobs and the economy. She placed a particular stress on what the deal will mean for immigration, the most important issue for many voters who backed leaving the EU.
“Not an emergency brake on free movement or a promise of greater transition controls in the future – but an end to the free movement of people, in full, once and for all. That is what this deal delivers. It will allow us to put in place an immigration system based not on where people come from but on the skills and talents they have to offer,” she said.”
In short, Free Movement RIP
@Daisy Walker says: 25 November, 2018 at 10:30 pm:
” … @ ‘schrodingers cat says:
25 November, 2018 at 8:56 pm
dave, an indy scotland will have to re apply for eu membership. this is the eu official position.”
Well no it isn’t the EU official position – it is a statement from the EC not the EU and those of us with good memory function will remember the many lies of former EC President Barroso who, among other things, claimed that Spain would veto an independent Scotland’s membership of the EU.
This in spite of the Spanish Government officially saying that they would not veto a Scotland EU membership application but a Spain that stated that Scotland would have to leave and reapply.
Which, incidentally is not a given as all the EU needs to do is, correctly, claim that as the UK is not a country but a two partner united kingdom and the Scottish partner voted to remain in the EU then Scotland is the legacy member state.
schrodingers cat says:
26 November, 2018 at 8:15 am
Jacqueline Minor, the European commission’s head of representation in the UK, said Scotland would need to formally apply after leaving the UK, although it could be fast-tracked because it already complies with EU rules and regulations.
It doesn’t matter what Jacquline Minor says, because she believes that Scotland would be a seceding from the UK and thereby not entitled to continuer status appropriate to the “mother” Country, in this case UK.
That is understandable given Westminster’s attempts to define an emerging Scotland as seceding state, but that is the usual “British” distortion of the truth.
The 1707 Treaties of Union were between equals, not a major and minor anything, so when the Union ends, it will end with equals, with neither state being Continuer State or Seceding State.
If the Union ends before the UK Brexit’s, then the EU will jump from 28 Sovereign Member States to 29 Sovereign Member States, Scotland being one of them.
There is no mechanism to expel a member state because a part of that State secedes, although the seceding State yes, would in all probability require to apply for membership, and properly so. But I repeat, if the Union splits before Brexit, in Constitutional terms older than EU membership, Scotland and England would be two nations of equal status.
We would BOTH logically inherit the privileges of Continuer status, and the onus would be on the EU to accommodate the change by mutual agreement.
Only after such cordial accommodations fail and membership status cannot be resolved, or is vetoed, would the issue become more difficult. But such a scenario seems implausible given Scotland’s oil, fish, renewables, and empathy for Europe.
There is no reason why the EU should risk Scotland’s economy diverging from EU standards and regulation while such conditions are already met.
Including utilities – electricity (£9Billion?). Or the lights will go out in the rest of the UK. Does Scotland even get paid for it?
Not including EU grants and ECB investment, in renewables etc.
Scotland is surplus in fuel and energy and nearer the sources. Yet pays more for it because it is colder. Scotland should pay 10%+ less for parity.
Oil can be and is exported anywhere. The Tories ruined the Oil sector by high Tory taxes. Ruined the fishing industry. Throwing dead fish back for years. Depleting stock. Took £Millions from farming in Scotland. Illegally and secretly took £Billions from Scotland. Anything gained from trade is cancelled by other policies. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.
The illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion has cost Scotland.
Westminster is now trying to ruin the Scottish economy taking Scotland out of the EU against it’s will. To milk Scotland.
TMay says …. “People want us to get on with a deal that honours the referendum “
Er, no. I think she’d find a majority now want her to just cancel the whole madcap scheme!
And, of the minority who do want Brexit, they don’t want her blind Brexit with many years of uncertainty ahead.
When I say we would both inherit Continuer Status, I mean Scotland might be 1/10 the size of the U.K., but a robust and complete entity properly entitled to full EU representation across all criteria.
Formally applying.
Can we get in,
Aye.
@HYUFD @8:35 am
You do know, and I know that you do, Scotland has no fiscal control of such figures. All such figures are the preserve of somewhere else. Possibly, maybe, if they exist “oh look a squirrel” which has been the response of the Fiscally Responsible Government one expects to know such things, when asked for actual figures.
Scotland therefore has to make do with guesses and statistics like GERS and the figures you linked to “9 out of 10 owners whose cats expressed a preference”
They may be a fair general representation, or they may be wildly inaccurate, they are a guess. In the same way GERS is a guess.
Also, the US by these guesses isn’t the next biggest market after the UK, as you keep stating – the EU is. It’s right there in your link. Not a revelatory link either, we’ve seen it. In the same way someone links to GERS and says “Ta-Da!”
It is not revelatory it’s just stirring the mince.
The tired response for the umpteenth time someone goes “Ta-Da!” Is :
Nobody actually knows the figures far less the Scottish Government because – and get this it’s a belter – it’s a guess.
If these guesses have traction in your world, then other guesses based on the same principles have traction; those guesses state that Scotland would be incredibly successful as an Independent country. More so than in its current situation.
I think we’re all aware of what the Britnat media and their chain tuggers think of us in the YES movement. Same goes for their support, only with less flowery luvs n’ kisses attached. We’ve been called all sorts over the years. Everything from separatists to blood and soil nats. We’re apparently tartan barbarians, sweaties, haggis munchers, deluded braveheart fans and much, much worse. That’s just those of us who voted YES to self determination in 2014.
If, on top of that, you voted remain in 2016? Good God you’ve been painted by the Britnat meeja as the next worst thing to the anti wossiname. Your loyalty and patriotism have been questioned. Your name dragged through the dirt. If you have a significant other whose point of origin is outwith the UK? Their and your whole world is under threat of being torn apart and your citizenship revoked at the drop of a hat. Your ability and right to travel freely, ripped out of your hands and against your will.
ALL of this? On the back of two of the most shameful winning campaigns in the UK’s political history. Two campaigns won on a torrent of lies, misinformation, intimidation and needless fear mongering. Two campaigns that because of their polarizing nature have fractured an already deeply divided society, probably beyond hope of repair.
Ms May sent a letter to the nations of the United Kindom. It was a letter asking the populations of these islands to back Brexit, back her deal, back her and back the UK basically. On the back of everything that’s gone before.
After decades of the political practices and the narratives that created all of the above carnage. She wants our backing. Uh huh.
There’s a well worn phrase for telling people to go away in the rudest possible fashion. It’s on the tip of my tongue…
You can get tae sumthin’ or other. Oh, and the horse you rode in on.
Hard to believe I know, but who knew that even a right wing exceptionalist party like the Conservative and (not so) onionists have an even more ruthless and empathy free right wing ideology within their own ranks? (sarc) In a party famed for personal, party, inter party, public betrayals and casual backstabbery, you’d think the populations of the UK might have seen the current crop coming a country mile off. Go figure. I’ve lost count of the people, institutions, parties, treaties and nationalities thrown under a bus at this point tbh.
Just shows you what kind of boorach you can achieve, when you have a conflicted state, a broken system and practice of politics, a twisted set of narratives and unlimited access to a somewhat politically and corporately compromised mass media saturation at your finger tips.
May now trying to threaten MP with their jobs ie troughing. Unless they go along with ruining the economy. Ruining other people’s jobs.
11 month visas. To use people then chuck them out. So they can’t reach 5 year residential status.
Just more red tape, bureaucracy and expense for business.
Jobs lost will not be worth it.
The May deal. More money and costs for less rights.
The Tories are charging children born in Britain up to £1000 for residential status. Sanctionig and starving people. They are despicable.
The shambles and mess they have made is extraordinary. Unbelievable. After they caused the worst migration crisis since the 11WW by the illegal wars. Displacing, maiming and killing people. Some of whom try to come to the UK. They did not even take in 3,000 unaccompanied chikdren.
Imaging if the monies spent on illegal wars and wespons had been spent on trade and aid. What a better place the world would be. The US/UK bombing the world to bits. Acting as mercenaries for apartheid States and absolute, despot monarchies. Policies which would not be tolerated in their countries. Destroying people’s lives and futures.
The Westminster unionists are the most appalling people.
It’s OK folks England says once they’ve finished Effing a country over against its will they’ll consider handing it back when there’s nothing left
And they say it as if they have the right to
So England can charge Scottish lorries but Scotland can’t charge English lorries? Grtbreal. It would make expense all round. Not good for trade. Tgevresourcethe why the EU was set up in the first place. To stop wars and starvation in Europe. Frictionless trade is cheaper.
The Westminster unionists seem determined to sanction and starve people. They cause war all over the world. Along with the US. Spending £Billions on redundant weaponry, sanctionig, starving and killing people. They were elected to protect.
The EU will charge lorries at far greater cost. The reason for a miles pile up at Dover/Calais. Of perishable goods. How much will that cost?
rp
im well aware of spains position, they would not veto an indy scotlands application to JOIN the eu.
i also believe that if we vote yes, then the eu may even alter the existing treaties to ensure a speedy entry back into the eu for us. why wouldnt they? you already listed the reasons why the eu would want us,
but thats my point, until we vote yes, the eu’s position will be that an indy scotland will need to apply as a new member. that is the reality of the indyref2 campaign.
the eu’s position is pragmatic and understandable, i would hope that once indyref2 is announced that they would give more clarity, but i wouldnt bank on it.
we cannot promise people in indyref2 that which is not in our power to give, we did that the last time and lost.
British Nationalists lie and they lie all the time.
The bias of Sky news:
Adam Boulton interviews Lord Kerr who wrote article 50 then proceeds to insist to Lord Kerr what *the rules say*
Lord Kerr has to quite forcibly retort that he wrote the rules and they do NOT say what Adam Boulton and Sky news say they do which is to repeat Theresa May’s lie about her deal or no deal
Lord Kerr went on to say that Theresa May’s deal was the worst possible outcome leaving the UK completely powerless in all scenarios
Oh and sign the leaders debates petition says Adam Boulton it’s an independent petition not Sky’s petition he says, ………. why are Sky giving it free advertising every 20 minutes then and where would these debates take place….oh jings Sky television… what a shocker!
The BTL comments on today’s Scotsman have hit new lows and given the number of attached up ticks is depressing with its indication of just how many swivel eyed Britnat loonies surround us.
“We have given away all our leverage, as far as I can see” – Lord Kerr, former British representative to the European Union, says it is a “surprisingly bad deal” what @theresa_may has brokered with the EU.
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1066998818091270144
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-25/u-k-s-other-brexit-fight-may-bar-it-from-1-7-trillion-wto-deal
EU court dismisses expats’ action against Brexit talks
http://archive.is/v964x
That’s all for now
Cubby says:
Compulsively!
Reverse the logic – anyone think of situations where a BritNat has told us the truth!?
@ Breeks.
Well said Breeks, to many people buying into this Westminster smoke and mirrors crap. When Scotland bins the political union with England the UK ceases to exist. I’m not sure, but I suspect that if indeed Scotland had to apply for membership of the EU, it would be because all Treaties signed up to by the UK since 1707 were null and void. That’s a can of worms the EU or Westminster are unlikely to want to open. Spain would be laughing all the way to Gibraltar and forget about the WTO agreement.
I suspect that there would be a mad scramble to recognise Scotland’s equal status and Dublin would be the first to sign up to it.
Gus1940@10.48am
I have only ever looked at the btl on the Scotsman twice. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing the first time. Disgusting vile creatures posting the most appalling comments. Just pure hatred. The fact that the Scotsman allows this shows how low the Britnat media’s idea of what is acceptable has sunk. I subsequently looked a second time to see if it had been a peculiarly bad day or if the Scotsman had taken action but no it was just the same. If these posts are from real people then there are some very nasty fascists in the UK. I say UK because it is not clear where they live.
Call me cynical, the UK collects our taxes then invests them in arms companies who make weapons and bombs to sell to Saudi Arabia who then proceed to use those weapons to commit genocide on Yemen, then our TV screens fill up with celebrities asking us for £3 per month to keep the Yemenis alive leading to the Saudis ordering more bombs and weapons from the UK to kill more Yemenis
And round and round we go paying for outcomes we have no control over but directly or indirectly funding all of it and all the while governments Faff excuses for it but keep taking our money and keep getting richer
Is it not becoming more obvious by the day that full restoration of the daily Rosyth/Zeebrugge passenger and vehicle ferry is a matter of urgency with facilities up to the standard of the late lamented Superfast service.
Can I suggest building vessels in Scotland (Stuff dependency on MOD contracts) with the vessels providing the following:-
Passenger accommodation and services up to Superfast standards.
Normal ferry accommodation for private cars and lorries but also just trailers.
A deck in the forward part to hold containers.
Consideration should also be given to vessels for Amsterdam, Norway and The Baltic.
If the services need subsidy – so what – we need to reduce or better eliminate the need to go through cargo outlets in England.
@Cubby
The Scotsman has its audience and it’s all they’ve got and they pander to it to keep themselves alive as a paper but they plumb the depths of hell and blacken their souls to do it
The Scotsman is a monstrosity as are it’s contributers
Rosyth would make a brilliant container port – one day. 🙂
BREXIT. FISHING.
BBC UK ON-LINE:
“……The statement was a clear sign that the UK will not have things all its own way, when it comes to balancing the competing demands of access to EU markets for UK fish produce, and access to UK fishing waters for EU boats.
Several EU leaders highlighted fishing as a particularly sensitive issue.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said talks on fisheries were “undoubtedly going to be an area where negotiations are going to be tough”.
But the bluntest warning came from the French President Emmanuel Macron,……..”
BBC Archived:
http://archive.is/5PBlR
O/T
Just heard a trailer for Jeremy Vine on Radio2 — should we just tell our MP to vote yes to the Eurodeal and get it over with.
This is the propoganda now being peddled
Via the REv’s twitter feed, I got to look at a Bloomberg piece on the permutations facing Parliament.
Typically, of such pieces written from journalists from within the Westminster bubble, there is no recognition of, or mention of the effect this piss-poor deal of May’s will have on Independence for Scotland.
They seem oblivious of the potential danger and damage England is facing from us Scots. Since they are so-busy with Brexit, they have forgotten all about us, now would be a very-good time to strike.
I trust, as soon as Parliament knocks back this ridiculous deal, Nicola will fine the starting gun of Indyref2. And I hope she times if for either Thursday, 28 March, or, better still, Thursday 21 March – that way we have a week in which to strt talking to the EU about staying in via the same continuity timetable as they have allowed on Brexit.
Dr Jim says:
IMO Sky News are now the most biased broadcaster, and that’s saying something!
They always regurgitate the WM/Establishment /Tory line, defending it relentlessly. They challenge robustly any alternative view and ignore inconvenient facts.
Their current campaign is to promote the lie that MPs have only two choices.
Anyone any idea when May is coming to Scotland?
Socrates MacSporran says:
Under the unlikely scenario TMay’s ‘deal’ is actually passed, then Nicola must do exactly as you outline. This ‘deal’ opens the door to years of uncertainty which could end in a very hard Brexit. We need an alternative way ahead.
But you say “knocks back”. The problem then is that IndyRef2 could be undermined by either MPs cancelling Brexit, assuming the ECJ say it can be done unilaterally. Or, a general election is called.
IF TMay fails, then she really has to resign. A new Tory leader? That would probably help IndyRef2!
However, cancellation or GE, would cause problems for us.
We can’t (Nicola can’t) keep delaying. One side of my head says “fire the starting gun” and let’s fight like dervishes (metaphorically) no matter what they throw at us. The other side says, “hold, hold”, just a little longer.
Independence should be about independence, not tied to anything, like EU membership.
Issues such as EU membership or alternatives, should be a matter democratically decided by all the people of Scotland AFTER we have taken back our sovereign power to decide such issues.
We must take it one step at a time, taking everyone with us, not splitting the YES vote with debates about: pro-EU or anti-EU, Trident, economic policies, social policies, monarchy, etc etc etc
Step 1: Independence.
” Nicola Sturgeon – World AIDS Day message 2018 “
Could you ever imagine an ‘London Bubble’ politician leading from the front like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArkQsbA8HmM
Anyone any idea when May is coming to Scotland?
When she visits the Queen at Balmoral?
It is an interesting ploy, now being driven by the BBC, that we need to accept the terrible deal as the public is bored with it and no other deal is available.
I suspect that both are the usual lies from a PM that will say anything to get her own way. If it is rejected there are other options that I suspect the EU would consider, although they may be short of patience with the shambolic politicians they are dealing with.
I have a feeling Labour will cave and not oppose it, they have form. Either way it is short of what Scotland voted for so I expect a choice for our future pretty quickly afterwards.
Why did the MPs / MSPs take Brexit to the ECJ, rather than what Scotland’s position would be if it voted for indy whilst still a member of the EU, and wanted to retain membership of the EU, whereas the rUK is leaving the EU?
This situation has never arisen, so there is no case law on this. It is a new situation that is more pertinent to Scotland if it’s going to become independent.
(It’s not a pro or anti-EU stance, just clarification of the circumstances).
IZZIE says:
26 November, 2018 at 11:54 am
Anyone any idea when May is coming to Scotland?””
After April.
UK Government news, give in, just give in, you know we’ll wear you down eventually so give in just give in because we’ll keep this thing going until you do, every day we’ll keep telling you the same lie over and over and over until you die if it takes forever, so you might as well give in now
Then as your government we can tell everybody we did exactly as you the people of the United Kingdom demanded of us in our free and fair referendum
Oh yes we will
” It’s not a deal, it’s not what anyone voted for, and if you had been paying attention you’d know it was never going to be. …. None of what they’re telling you is true. And there’s another decade of this yet, folks….. What people voted for is still 10 years down the road. After the actual negotiations.”
Exactly! TMay is trying to sell the blindest of blind Brexits.
http://archive.is/Ot7jk
Her plan may of course hit the rocks, however if Brexit isn’t cancelled it will take years and years to achieve anything like the current situation no matter how Brexit unfolds. It’s crap, any and all Brexits are crap.
Scotland needs to chart another course.
Isn’t it beyond ironic that the very thing the eu right wing sceptics and their willing lackey in the media who portrayed the eu as the big bad ‘union’ who we were at the mercy of with all their ‘no bent banana’ ‘rules’ have ended up creating ‘exactly’ this reality with the withdrawal deal?
I mean they have literally created the very thing they were against.
What will they do after? (suspect it won’t get through the parly) If it does get through…will it jus be a continuation of ‘grievance’ for years to come….oh…wait…they won’t be able to do a fucking thing about any of it by then.
(yes yes, I know, there is a wee ways to go…aw the same, coudnae steer a ship through the open seas)
galamcennalath
I say “knocks back”, because, I can see no way by which the deal she has negotiated will be passed by the MPs – the opposition, on all sides and for various different reasons, is simply too-great for it to get through.
Regardless of the ECJ ruling, I cannot see Westminster ever agreeing to simply renouncing Article 50 and the UK carrying-on as a full member state. English exceptionalism will simply not allow for this.
In the highly-unlikely event of this happening, Westminster will be so-wounded in future internal EU meetings, any leverag they had will be gone.
Ideally, I feel we want Indyref2 done and dusted, if humanly possible, by 29 March. Then, we can say to Europe, we always wanted to stay in, we have now voted to stay in – help us achieve this.
If we cannot get it done and dusted by then, Nicola has to call it before the 2021 Holyrood elections – i.e. while her mandate from Holyrood is still running.
Either way, the Westminster Establishment, and their useful idiots such as Davidson, Leonard and Rennie, and the pro-union media will throw every lie they can think of, and a few more, at the pro-Independence campaign. It will be an even dirtier fight than Indyref1, because, they now know, after the last one, and with the Brexit effect, they don’t have a viable case for Scotland staying within the UK.
It would also help, if we at the same time worked at having the Act of Union blown apart, because of 300-years of bad faith by England.
Attack on two fronts, they cannot hold us.
HYUFD must have great funds from the Dark Money coming in to Scotland in Union’s fascist branch.
Must be a good number of people behind it and lots of research for dodgy links to verify their absurd claims.
Sorry for the minimal wage the Rev Picks up and all that free accurate and interesting input from people like our own Mr Peffers.
There has always been good money in corruption but without morals we would all be Westminster Tories Red or Blue.
Oh gosh apparently Scotland’s not in the national interest
Of course Brexit is not about ‘taking back control’ or ‘immigration’ or any of these things. At the start of 2019 all EU member states will have to apply the Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive which would crack down on Mogg, Johnson, Farage and their wealthy donors. THAT’S what Brexit is about, nothing else.
Vince Cable says England has the right to change its mind
but not Scotland
Oh, and abolishing worker’s rights of course. Working Time Directive etc…
Anyone any idea when May is coming to Scotland?””
My answer.
When she gets her visa and not before.
Until we are independent.
Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.
If this results in another referendum why should Scotland take part when they ignored our participation in the first one
And are still ignoring us
For what its worth, I think it is likely that Terrible Mays deal will get voted through.
Not because anyone wants it, but because it burns up time. They can oust her later, leaving no time for a PV or IndyRef2 before the cliff edge.
A GE would then leave labour to hold the can and sort out the mess, while the Tories re-group, and belated ‘sensible’ voices of Hesseltine and Major come out of the woods to re-establish the party.
Behind the scenes of course, they will have protected their Tax Havens, and made a buck out of selling off the NHS, etc.
If the First Minister calls IndyRef2 too quickly, and before the outcome of ECJ on whether or not WM can unilaterally cancel Article 50 – should this judgement come out in favour, it means that WM can pull the rug out from under our feet and cancel Brexit at the last moment.
Much will depend on the backroom negotiations on Tax Havens, and none of that will ever be made officially public.
In the mean time, the First Minister keeps being reasonable, keeps attempting compromise, keeps being knowledgeable and professional. It doesn’t light my Indy/Yesser fire, but then I don’t think she’s speaking to me, my vote is safe, I think she’s speaking directly to our undecided’s and our former No voters. I hope so anyway. And if so, she’s playing a blinder.
One things for sure, there’s no good news about Brexshit. It’s all bad and badder.
People have a natural liking / receptors for bad news, its why newspapers don’t do very many good news stories – they don’t sell.
It’s why better together went for a ratio of 2:1 – 2 x project fear to 1 x Bit of Socialism/Nostalgia.
Our former No Voters, did not want upheaval, did not want uncertainty, did not want to have to invest in hope and optimism. For them, now, given Brexit, the Scottish Government, the not very exciting SNP (sorry) is now the safe pair of hands, especially if it can cancel Brexit.
I wonder if Indy can become a legislative reality, as apposed to a big decision. If the Treaty of Union becomes null and void because NI are being treated differently, then WM’s power to be the single point of contact and negotiator with the EU also gets thrown out.
Is it possible that legally at that point the ScotGov would have the right to negotiate directly with the EU for Scotland to remain a full member.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
England cannot afford to lose Scotland though. And they don’t play nice. The First Ministers support of the PV is brilliant ambassador-ness (is that a word) in terms of building good relations with the people of England for the future.
I still think that No Deal was always the intended goal and that 29/3/19 is D Day.
Socrates MacSporran says:
I feel the No1 weapon they can use to defend their Union is to have a GE and a Labour government. Unfortunately, there are still people in Scotland who can be swayed by Labour. Idiotic, yes, but it’s one of our weak spots. Vows lining up. A few percent of gullible swayed,
Tories, hard Brexit, English nationalism … these assist our cause. But, as I say, I do fear there are undecided Scots who could swing to NO to give Labour one more chance,
If TMay’s Bill fails, and that seems to be the consensus likeliest outcome, then a GE is possible. Nicola needs to build that into any plan.
Personally, I would say that if they try to interrupt IndyRef2 (whenever it is called) with a GE it should be fought on an Indy ticket to try to motivate the 1.5m 2014 Yesser to get off their arses.
From a previous post.
I feel we want Indyref2 done and dusted, if humanly possible, by 29 March. Then, we can say to Europe, we always wanted to stay in, we have now voted to stay in.
The people of Scotland have already been asked in a vote and The people of Scotland said, WE want to stay in the EU.
Until we are independent.
Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.
Good article on Newsnet – worth a read
https://newsnet.scot/news-analysis/the-fall-and-fall-of-sterling-speaks-volumes-for-the-loss-britains-influence-in-a-changing-world/
Bertie Armstrong of the SFF says it’s a great deal for the UK and the EU are scared
I should’ve mentioned soon to be Lord Bertie Armstrong for services to the UK
The televised May-Corbyn debate. Wonder what will be shown here while it’s on?
Aye, right. We’ll get the dubious pleasure of watching two minority English-centric parties arguing about low relevancy issues.
It has reached the stage where the only relevance Lab & Tories in London now have, is their indirect influence on the timing of IndyRef2!
As the third party at Westminster the SNP must have a place in any TV debate over the Brexit “Agreement” particularly as they have been the only party with a consistent and coherent approach.
Does anyone have an update on the Andy Whiteman case on Article 50, please?
Anyone know why The National are punting round the idea of SNP going into a DUP style Confidence and Supply deal with Corbyn AFTER a GE where they win majority of seats on a “Majority = Independence” manifesto.
The “Depends on how much you respect a legally binding Section 30 notice” reply they just gave me on twitter just seems to be pandering to English needs rather than drawing a line in the sand and saying “We are off!..if you don’t like it,tough!”.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17256376.read-keith-browns-letter-to-sky-news-calling-for-snp-inclusion-on-brexit-leaders-debate/
Not content with treating Scottish football as second class citizens (£120 million for English second division TV rights but only up to £30 Scottish top tier) SKY is ignoring the second largest political party in terms of membership in the UK.
Letters of complaint to: Sky News, BSkyB, Grant Way, Isleworth, Middlesex, TW7 5QD Email: news@skynews.com
TODAY.Scotland’s Secretary of State in May’s Cabinet, David Mundell under pressure to resign.
PoliticsHome:
“Scottish Secretary David Mundell is facing fresh calls to resign amid a brewing standoff over European access to Britain’s fishing waters after Brexit……….”
A House of Commons quote from 1940 would be appropriate,”In the name of God—GO”.
https://tinyurl.com/yc5zqxdh
@galamcennalat re televised May-Corbyn debate
Why bother..it will be an orchestrated 60 mins of Theresa saying “Ha Jeremy!..For years you always voted against EU” and Jermey saying “H Theresa!..for years you always voted for the EU”
Its just a diversion tactics, Nicola shuld avoid at all costs as she will be stood next to some UKIPPer no doubt.
Announce its a bad deal..reason for referendum is met and concentrate on our Exit Strategy..the UK isn’t worth saving and isn’t Nicolas job regardless of how caring she is.
O/T by a long , long way
Just wanted to say thanks for all the good wishes after my accident earlier this month.
Now down south at my daughter’s wrecking their doors with my wheelchair. The bad news-it will be months before I’m back or able to drive. Think I need to organise a proxy vote just in case:-)
Special thanks go to @cearc for the flowers & chocolates. They were lovely thanks Maria.
Andy Wightman case hearing at EU Court of Justice tomorrow.
Jolyon Maugham QC also involved. See latest on his Twitter feed wherein UK Govt admits all that’s necessary, in domestic law, for revocation of Art 50 is for UK Parliament to make that known to UK Govt.
O/T…
The Broadcasting Scotland crowdfunder is at £20,580 of its £30,000 target with just over two hours to go.
Will they make it?
JEEZ! Forgot the link…
https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/broadcastingscotland
“Theresa to start criss-crossing the country in the next two weeks” says big Auntie darn Sarf “including Scotland to sell the deal”.
Their very words! 🙂
Some Labour MPs now swithering and will vote the deal through or …. wait for it….abstain says, an unknown to me, labour MP!
Might be closer than we think.
O/T
A spoil yourself Linky thing:
Live last game of 12 for the World Chess Championship starting at 3pm in London. Fascinating…honest 11 draws so far. 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikiHTNQnh58
” Andy Wightman case …. “
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-article50/stopping-brexit-eus-top-court-hears-uk-exit-reversal-case-idUSKCN1NV1OW
call me dave says:
If it does pass, then that is the clarity needed for IndyRef2 IMO.
It means during the transition period, where we are all still in the single market, England will be negotiating its future EU Trade Deal, and Scotland will be preparing for Indy day and our relationship with the EU.
I would hope for the simplicity that our relationship with England will be the same as England’s relationship with the EU! We will have a future close or in the EU, England will be a 3rd country with a trade agreement.
marydoll @ 11:40,
jfngw @ 12:16,
If people think that passing the upcoming vote in the HoC means the end of Brexit, they are in for a very, very rude shock.
Brexit trade negotiations only begin afterwards. Fisheries and all. Macron has already given a hint of the hardball treatment the UK will be getting after it leaves.
And this could last years, even a decade.
There’s only one way we here in Scotland can avoid that ongoing misery, and we all know what that is.
“If it does pass, then that is the clarity needed for IndyRef2 IMO.”
You would think. But we all know how utterly scurrilous and mendacious our fearless SMSM are up here. You can bet your last ginger bottle (the hardest currency I know of) that they’ll be screaming from the rooftops that “We don’t know what the trade deal is yet. Hold IndyRef2 until we know. We could negotiate a better deal than being in the EU. If you join the EU you’ll have to take the Euro, you’ll have to join the CFP…” yadda, yadda, yadda.
You know the script.
Just to remind folks.
No deal brexit = NO transition period.
Thats March 29th, 11pm, OUT the EU, NO trading arrangement in place at all.
But hey…
Brexit means brexit!
No deal is better than a bad deal!
It is just meaningless one line britnat soundbites.
In the real world, treeza is punting that ANY deal is better than No deal.
Even her ridiculous deal, which is the opposite of her 2 year mantra!!
So, what to do…?
Wait until they confirm whatever the fuck they are doing, deal wise, request the Section 30, for an indyref at timing WE set out.
If they fanny about, we tell treeza we will be putting a protective political dissolution motion to Holyrood to end the treaty of union, and pledge to hold an affirmation plebiscite later, when it suits us.
The fact is, we hold the powerful cards, thanks to great groundwork by Scotsgov, why on earth would we play along with the farce of a peoples vote or Snap GE ?
Both those things are about stopping indy not brexit.
Once Holyrood dissolves the treaty of Union, we revert to pre 1707 treaty status while awaiting the caveated plebiscite.
Kingdom of Scotland = independent
Kingdom of England = Independent.
Scotland will at this point, have a parliament and working government.
England will not.
As Robert Peffers says, the English Parliament has not sat since 1st May 1707, so a Holyrood dissolution will mean England has no functioning government at that point of dissolution.
We do not need permission to dissolve the union.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Exactly. It’s why I have always moaned about the media expression ‘final deal’. Jeez, the final deal could be ten years away! And it always would have been. This is the Withdrawal Agreement, the easy bit. The serious stuff is in the Trade Talks which of course haven’t begun.
The link I posted at 12:55 ….
http://archive.is/Ot7jk
geeo
I like your timetable, but, would add something.
At the same time as a protective political dissolution motion is put to Holyrood, the SNP at Westminster convenes a meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee of Westminster MPs, and puts the same motion on the table.
With the inbuilt SNP majority, this will pass – Westminster will then we faced with Holyrood telling them: Scotland is dissolving the Union, and at the same time the Scottish MPs at Westminster are reinforcing this position.
I don’t think they would have an answer to that, other than to say: “No you don’t, you cannot – we own you and what we say goes.”
If that doesn’t convince the 55% to back Yes – nothing ever will, and we will deserve to continue being England’s last colony until – the day after the last oil comes ashore, in perhaps a century or more’s time, they tell us we can go.
@socrates mcsporran
I like that thinking also.
Just add that, in those circumstances, the caveated plebiscite to ‘affirm’ the protective political dissolution, would render a different question from 2014.
The question would more be…
Do you, the legally sovereign people of Scotland, wish to…..
A. Affirm the protective political dissolution ?
B. Instruct us, your Scottish government, to enter into a negotiation with WM to re enter into a new union treaty with WM, on terms acceptable to Scotland’s needs ?
WM would never be able to sell an ACTUALLY EQUITABLE union to their electorate, after lifetimes of selling the Subsidy junkies, myth to the English voters.
In effect, the protective dissolution would be upheld without much fuss.
As i keep saying, if WM want to be involved in saving their union, their ONLY realistic option is agreeing a Section 30 on Scotland’s terms for a referendum at a time of our choosing.
Cancelling brexit completely would be an option, allowing them to claim ‘no mandate’ but at what cost via Leave voters backlash at the next GE ?
“VOTE TORY…we let Scotland stop your brexit” would be some sell, even for WM.
In the PM statement to the Commons all the Tory and Labour and Lib Dem MPs agree that Theresa May’s deal is total unadulterated garbage and she’s talking complete mince and trying to sell it as sirloin, except when it comes to Scotland and Ian Blackford speaks then all those same Tory Labour and Lib Dems MPs completely reverse their opinions and agree with Theresa May that everything she says about Scotland is right proper and correct
Now I understand we have stupid people in Scotland and we have hard line idiot Yoons in Scotland but it’s about time the sensible folk in the middle took a stand on this along with those of us who support Independence and said enough enough enough
No English parliament of any colour will never consider Scotland’s interests for Scotland they’ll only consider how much they can take from Scotland to benefit themselves because Scotlands votes don’t count
@ geeo.
2 great posts.
The last May tour. In and out of Scotland in a day. Selected audience.
Roaming the back lanes in NI.
Barricaded in Westminster. The security fences now eight feet high.
Westminster unionists hypocrites and liars.
From Guardian rolling news. 1min ago …
“The SNP’s Joanna Cherry says Scottish parliamentarians are going to the European court of justice tomorrow to get a ruling that the UK can revoke article 50.
May says that is not going to happen because it is not government policy.”
I think what is and isn’t Tory gov policy, is somewhat academic now!
Regardless of whether the SNP are instrumental in May’s deal being voted down or not their part will be portrayed as decisive and further as a ploy to set up the optimal conditions for indyref2.
There’s also this …
” Brexit: High Court to rule if referendum vote ‘void’ as early as Christmas after Arron Banks investigation
Exclusive: Judges poised to fast-track explosive legal challenge after Theresa May’s ‘failure to act’ on growing evidence of illegality “
http://archive.is/X0kiC
Making a cash withdrawal at the Co-op Post Office today which I use regularly, I noticed that yet again I was given Bank of England notes.
On enquiring as to why Scottish bank notes are not being issued, I was informed to quote exactly “these are British legal tender”.
Has anyone else encountered this relegation of our banknotes at the Co-op?
Just curious but does anyone know if the court has powers to order the UK Gvt to pay costs/damages if they do find they have the power to unilaterally cancel Clause 50 (and then use that power)?
A Corbyn May debate. Just realised, both intend to proceed with Brexit. Surely when at least half voters what to Remain now, and even more want a second vote to decide, surely a balanced panel must have anti Brexit members.
Con Lab SNP and LibDem would be balanced.
Further to my post at 4.48pm, I should have added that while Scottish banknotes are not legal tender anywhere in the UK including Scotland,no Bank of England notes are legal tender in Scotland. Fact is legal tender is not required so why is the Co-op issuing Bank of England notes as a matter of course to customers making cash withdrawals in Scotland?
My question.
What other currencies can the Scottish pound be linked to, other than the English pound.
Until we are independent.
Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.
@Luigi
Don’t know the current status, but Babcock are planning to do just that (container port), maybe working already.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-courier-advertiser-perth-and-perthshire-edition/20170213/281517930870835
and a mention
http://energy.scottishports.org.uk/ports/port-babcock-rosyth
Mmm, wow:
(1 Nov 2018) “Babcock International has today announced it has taken the difficult decision to exit operations at its Appledore facility in Devon, ending its site lease in March 2019. . . To that end, the company will offer relocation opportunities for all 199 Appledore employees at other Babcock facilities, 140 of whom are already on short-term redeployment to its Devonport operations. ”
https://www.babcockinternational.com/News/Appledore%20Announcement
Appledore built the Irish Navy OPVs, and was a potential partner in Babcock’s Type 31 bid.
I’ll have to suss this one out.
Sad for Appledore all the same. From 2016:
“Babcock Secures 4th Irish OPV for Appledore Shipyard”
https://www.babcockinternational.com/News/Babcock%20Secures%204th%20Irish%20OPV%20for%20Appledore%20Shipyard
and secured a 5 star safety accreditation rating Dec 2017 for Appledore.
“May says that is not going to happen because it is not government policy.”
What if ECJ says “Yes, A50 can be unilaterally revoked” – can’t an MP introduce a Private Members Bill to have A50 overturned?
Just heard Tory MP, Vicky Ford, twice use the phrase ” second referendum” when being asked to list the possible outcomes of the current situation. She’s against that, but it is interesting to hear it being called that instead of a people’s vote.
Wull2
Hello there! I’m going to be a pedantic p***k and gently point you towards point 8 in the Rev’s commenting etiquette section.
No malice intended.
In an interview on Sky news Lord Kerr said article 50 can be reversed, Adam Boulton disagreed with him and Lord Kerr said *I wrote the thing*
We hate the Germans and we hate the French and well we hate everybody who’s not us, so the leavers all jumped in and said let’s leave Whey hey! they cheered, we’ll get rid of all the immigrants coz Nigel said Whey hey! the leavers cheered
See them all cheering in the House of Commons today, Nup! not one of the moronic idiots
At least they’ve got Theresa May to blame now, for what THEY did and her giant ego for wanting the job
Remember though while it’s really really bad for the UK it’s apparently really really good for Scotland, they agree on that
@Essexexile says: Wull2
I think you may have the wrong poster, wull2 has done nothing to offend in this thread.
” The only question now is how badly Theresa May’s Brexit deal will be defeated …. by more than 100 votes.”
Wow!
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/11/only-question-now-how-badly-theresa-may-s-brexit-deal-will-be-defeated
Essexexile@5.36pm
Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else
Yesindyref2,
But Sir said we weren’t allowed slogans at the bottom of posts, that’s all.
Cubby lol. Nice work!
There is a fundamental injustice in the UK and that is the way all citizens of Scotland are treated by UK governments. I include no voters in this because they suffer the same injustice even if they do not realise or accept it. Their sons and daughters will come to see this injustice in a future independent Scotland.
That’s what Scottish independence boils down to for me – rectifying a fundamental injustice.
Dr Jim @ 17:36,
Nice one.
For once, the propagandist punditariat put in their proper place.
@Essexexile
Ah! I see what you mean. Mmm, well, a bit nitpicky 🙂
Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.
(that’s me for the hammer as well)
Just a quick question is the Scot Govt v The U.K. Govt over devolved issues( powergrab) done or did it go to Europe to be decided on ? So much has happened I’m not sure?Anyone know ?
Regarding the utter b*llocks about English notes and legal tender.
The term ‘legal tender’ is an English legal term that specifies how a debt, such as via a county court may be paid. This is to avoid things like paying 500 pound fine in 5p pieces (just to p*ss everybody in the court off). Legal tender therefore specifies how such debts may be paid. So, it might say something like up to 50 pounds in minimum ten pound bank of england notes, or up to a maximun in 20 pound notes and all sums above 1000 pounds to be settled in 50 pound notes or higher (it is English law don’t forget, which is why it cites bank of England notes (and for no other reason)).
A similar thing actually happens in Scotland. When I refused to pay the Thatcher scum poll tax, eventually they threatened me, so I had to go to a debt collection place to make payment. There, they had big signs, specifying the maximum amount that could be paid in 5ps, 10ps and so on (obviously lots of folk wanted to pay the poll tax in pennies (for a laugh).
Anyway, that in England is what legal tender refers to. It only specifies English bank notes because it is English law, and NOT because shops can only accept English notes etc…
It has nothing to do with the acceptability or not of any currency or form of payment in shops etc..
So, it is irrelevant to say ‘oh Scottish notes aren’t legal tender’, because what is important is actually whether they are legal currency (and they are). A shop can accept payment in ANY format it wishes, including payment in bottle tops or jam jars (neither of which are ‘legal tender’).
No, anybody in England refusing to take Scottish notes is either simply a racist or pig-ignorant. This baloney about being ‘legal tender’ or not is just nonsense of the very highest order – and really, if you give it a moments thought, it really is pretty obvious that it is nonsense.
And I should add, anybody working in a bank of all places should know this – and if they don’t then they might consider if they are actually making the right career choices.
When I go down to England, if ever a shop refuses a scottish note, I simply tell them I have no other means of payment, that I have offered a legal currency in payment, and leave everything at the till for them to sort out. What I NEVER do, is say oh sorry, I’ll go to the cash machine or offer alternative payment. You will always find a shop which will take your money – I find that NON- English owned shops/ cafes and takeaways are usually pretty good, since they don’t have the same anti Scotland bigotry found elsewhere.
For those who don’t do twitter
(courtesy of wingstwitter)
David Leask appears to have gone full gammon!
https://twitter.com/LeaskyHT/status/1066995390648598534
Essexexile@6.07pm
I’m guessing you didn’t read my previous post ( I won’t repeat it) where I suggested you may want to consider that posting on Wings maybe should be more about passion for independence rather that correcting grammar. Not sure how many great changes in society have been achieved by getting the grammar correct and following rules of presentation.
CLAIR RIDGE (just dodged a hammer- may be another on its way)
Molly at 622pm,
It is at England’s pretendy ‘supreme’ court in London, and a ruling is due soon -ish, I think.
Once again, In Blckford gets to his feet in the HoC, once again the Tory mumbling and talking stops. Once again the Speaker does very little.
When are those Proud Scots But, who think we should stay wedded to England going to realise – they hate us, they have no time for us, they will never treat us fairly, far less equally.
Time to go.
@galamcennalath
If May were to lose the “meaningful vote” by even 50 votes she will have to consider resigning as leader of the Tories.
She’s worked two and half years to get this deal, it’s her deal, she is the architect and sole owner and to suffer such a humiliating deal has got to hurt a lot.
The best thing she could do in such a situation is to walk for if not she’ll only suffer further humiliation when her own party eventually kick her out before Brexit is even over.
Footsoldier says: @ 26 November, 2018 at 5:01 pm
I can’t find the link but I’m sure that RBS, BoS, Clydesdale and I think Ulster Bank are the only banks in the UK that can print and distribute currency. All other banks have to get their money from the BoE which I believe they have to pay the BoE to store i.e. if they want £400 Million in currency from the BoE, they have to pay £400 Million plus the storage fee. It probably works out cheaper for the Scottish banks to print their own notes as if it wouldn’t they would be issuing ones from the BoE.
Besides, we Scots can’t be having BoE notes. If we were using BoE tenners and twenties, that would mean it belongs to us as well as the rest of the UK. That wouldn’t go down too well in any future independence negotiations, would it?
Britnats have been lying about the oil running out since the 1970’s. As sure as day follows night they then lie that they didn’t say the oil was running out.
This pattern of repeat lying has been going on for 5 decades. In the age of the internet it is harder for them to get away with it. Leask trying to play the victim is laughable. People like Leask have always known the truth they just lie to con the uninformed, gullible and Britnats who prefer lies to uncomfortable truths.
Britnats lie and they having been lying for a very long time.
CLAIR RIDGE ( who will be throwing hammers at me first essexexile or the Rev)
GERS Is not a guess. It is not inaccurate statistics. It is not woolly figures. It is not estimates. It is not even best estimates. It is not the UK gov doing its best for Scotland to give the colony some revenue figures to play with. It is none of these. It is the UK gov doing its best for the UK. It is part of a great scam. A national level scam but a scam nevertheless.
GERS IS BRITNAT PROPAGANDA. THAT IS WHY GERS WAS CREATED.
Pacman BoE notes Wee have the solution Lighters 3 for ah pound makes them lovely an crinkly & the benefit of which they will be withdrawn from circulation in Scotland .
Tereza’s coming tae Scotland ah wunner if wee Ruthie will make a appearance to meet the great leader.
I see an English village which was flooded due to a dam to provide much needed water has been exposed once again, as there is no water.
We have oil, we have renewables, fish, whisky, gin(horrible stuff), life sciences, tourism, agriculture, what have I missed? Oh yes water gallons of the stuff high quality Scottish water far more valuable than any oil or gas or English jam.
I’m sure once independent we could sell some to England allowing them to cover up their discarded villages, at a price of course.
Independence soon please.
when bojo hired a hall next to the last tory conference, it was jam packed with tory party members cheering his no deal agenda
when may loses the vote, there will be a leadership challenge. while the brexiteer tory mps are in the minority in WM, the rank and file tory members support no deal
what can any other candidate (eg anna soubry) offer the tory mps?
efta?, cancel brexit? even treezas deal will no longer be an option.
i think the extreme right wing of the tory party (1922) will win this coup and once the new pm announces a new ge, they will ensure that the more moderate pro eu tory mps like ken clark etc, will not get selected to stand in their existing constituencies. they will get cleared out.
a no deal tory manifesto could win in england but it will be a very hard sell for the scottish tories.
what corbyn will do is anyones guess, i suspect he will waffle some more about a jobs first brexit and negotiating a new deal. labour will be screwed regardless of what corbyn decides to support and the labour party will be a divided and squabbling mess.
Jason Smoothpiece, in tonights BBC news the squirrel to distract from the omnishambles of Brexit was the headlines of Global Warmings effect on the UK. Predictions were that England would have 30% less rain whilst Scotland and Northern Ireland would have more Rain and Snow.
geeo says:
25 November, 2018 at 10:36 pm
@lochside
Wipe your chin, then answer this.
What are you gibbering about ?
You name me any scenario where WM refuses a Section 30 or tries to delay it, which does not breach the Treaty of Union, ending that Treaty ?
Name one ?
You appear to be claiming UDI is possible for Scotland, how do you figure tgat out ?’
Are you an adult Geeo ?…if so why do you have to always reply like an adolescent hyped up on adrenaline? I’ll name a scenario when Westminster refuses a Section 30…..Anytime.
If you read the definition and constitutional basis of the Section 30 that I quoted, you will note that Both Houses of Parliament have to validate it. They won’t.
As for breaches of the Union, I don’t know if you noticed, but the English have been breaching the Act for three hundred years and nobody has given a toss.
As for UDI…as I said previously, I’m NOT advocating UDI….but you are with a useless Section 30 farting at thunder.
If you are going to reply, please don’t resort to your usual invective…it lowers the site’s tone.
Pacman All Scottish banks have to deposit in Pounds Sterling with the Band of England the equivalent amount they have printed in Scottish Currency
Watched May’s statement. I find myself so disgusted at the mess of politics right now, I’m switching off, in a kind of despair for Scotland.
Phillipa Whitford did well. She was very angry. She asked May to withdraw her comments last week about “queue jumpers”, because it included her German husband, who has worked as a GP for 30 years.
May actually said “I shouldn’t have used that phrase” then quickly moved to undo it with a big BUT, there is a point that citizens want FoM stopped.
Blah, blah, Borders, furriners, xenophobia.
Lenny Hartley
Lenny another reason the Regime will not let Scotland go without a fight, they will cling on with their thieving hands until we wriggle free.
Scotland is blessed with so much, what a terrible pity about roughly half the population are less than bright.
on twitter
Nigel Farage
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Theresa May’s agreement is the worst deal in history, I hope Parliament votes it down and we leave on WTO rules.
Thought some of you would like to watch
An Afternoon with Roger Mullin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFi71Pnmj7c&feature=youtu.be
Cubby
Maybe I’m wrong but I thought that GERS was produced by the Scottish Government.
Even if not, they never seem to discredit them.
@Cubby
To understand what GERS is, you need to understand the origins of money.
Where does money come from?
Firstly, It doesn’t come from tax. Tax reallocates EXISTING money.
The money supply is increased by the following..
U.K. treasury spending via its overdraft at the Bank of England
Issuance of loans by commercial banks (bank loans create new deposits in the banking system, not the other way around)
Bank created money only exists for the duration of the loan – repayment extinguishes that money.
We can have an effective increase in money supply from overseas by running a trade surplus (historically we know that Scotland runs a trade surplus but doesn’t benefit from it)
What GERS demonstrates is that there is LACK of demand in the Scottish economy because there is a LACK of money in the Scottish economy. As mentioned above tax doesn’t CREATE extra money but simply allocates that ALREADY in existence.
To put the above in perspective, think about the billions poured into the city of London post financial crisis. 10% deficits run by the treasury financed the banks and the bankers. Of course the bankers overinflated salaries yield high tax revenue, but the tax didn’t come first, the treasury spending did. (Yesterday’s spending is today’s tax revenue )
Spending funds tax, not the other way around. To illustrate this, try playing monopoly by taxing all the players before they pass go. Short game eh!
Scotland doesn’t have a treasury. We can’t issue new £s into existence. We have to rely on the reallocation of tax receipts from a DECLINING money supply. GERS illustrates how we divide the pie and that’s all it does. The problem is that the pie isn’t big enough.
Snp again playing a blinder. Timing and strategy is everything while the gift of brexit just keeps on giving.
I’ve only got one wee grumble. I wish they’d stop referring to the UK as a country. It is not. Thanks to Robert Peffers in particular I’ve discovered how crucial this issue is. (I hope I’m getting this right !?!?)The UK is a weird contraption. Scotland is a country. Please Indy supporting politicians don’t call the UK a country. We can’t be a country within a country and it diminishes our status.
Pete, the Scottish zgovernment has to publish the Gers figured which are in the main provided by UK Government from a series of figures cobbled together by guestimates and made up
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/08/22/gers-really-is-crap/
Political slop on Channel 4 was by the SNP, you can watch it again on channel 4 + 1, basically telling anybody that was watching that Indy Ref 2 is coming ?
@Lenny Hartley says: 26 November, 2018 at 7:14 pm:
” … Pacman All Scottish banks have to deposit in Pounds Sterling with the Band of England the equivalent amount they have printed in Scottish Currency.
Indeed they do, Lenny but that is a deposit in a BOE account and, just like anyone else who opens a deposit account, that deposit does not belong to the bank it continues to belong to the depositor. It is just security for the sum the Scottish bank has released into the economy.
If the Scottish Bank withdraws currency from the economy there get that value returned. Furthermore, the B of E was nationalised in 1946 and it had previously always been a private company with a Royal Warrant. Thus part of the B of E belongs to the Kingdom of Scotland and, as the people of Scotland are sovereign, each Scot owns part of the Bank of England.
It is the United Kingdom that owns the B of E not either the country nor the kingdom of England, and the United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of only those two kingdoms that signed the 1706/7 Treaty of Union.
Robert Louis…
I get your point about places in England refusing to take Scottish money.
Even as long ago as fifty years ago when I lived in England I sometimes had Scottish money on returning from a trip home to Dundee to see relatives and when presenting my Scottish money to shopkeepers I was met with comments such as “what is this” , “is it real money” ,they would hold notes up to the light and examine it looking for the thin strip of silver that used to run through old notes back then, and they used to bite on Scottish coins to see if they were real, honestly you wouldn’t believe it, sometimes they would offer you 95p for a pound or refuse to take it.
I always retrieved my money and walked out the shop saying I will buy what I need at another shop.
‘All eyes on (Nicola) Sturgeon as SNP figures call for Indyref2.’
……”Westminster has to show respect for Scotland and our sovereign rights as defined by the Claim of Right. Ultimately Independence is the only answer.”
http://www.thenational.scot/news/17255071.all-eyes-on-sturgeon-as-snp-figures-call-for-indyref2-push/?c=t1qbdi
About banknotes….
Here in Dundee just about everywhere you go to withdraw money you are issued with English bank notes I even went to the RBS cashline a couple of weeks ago and withdrew money and I was amazed that it issued Bank of England notes..
Robert Peffers
UK govt still own 82% of RBS too. From what you say (I’ve no reason to doubt you) it effectively means we, as taxpayers, deposit £1 with ourselves in one currency so we can release 82p in another.
Scottiedog@7.38pm
“The problem is that the pie isn’t big enough”
The pie is big enough it’s just that fat barstewards like Boris Johnston are eating to much of Scotlands pie before it gets returned to Scotland. So that when the pie is returned it’s nothing but crumbs to keep us alive to keep baking future pies for the greedy thieves in Westminster.
A £ spent in Croyden is better than a £ spent in Strathclyde
Boris Johnson said that, I’m sure with great love and affection for us Jocky simple folk of the North beyond the wall
To HYFUD….your comment at 1244 doesn’t even make sense , obviously a hurried comment with no forethought and no checking done.
Scotland has 5 million people lots of resources and once we are independent we will not be sending our goods for export via England ,you will notice a sharp decline in English exports once you are no longer able to record Scottish goods as English exports.
I can’t think of anything that we will need to import from England other than goods specific to an area such as Cornish cheese etc but to be honest we make cheese in Scotland that is better than Cornish cheese so if we do import some it will be a small amount.
We will of course be covering all produce exported from Scotland to England in Scottish flags and we will of course be marking all English produce we import from England with a label saying
” not quality assured “.
After Brexit it’s clear that England will be importing much much more than it will be exporting.
Good luck with that.
@Pete says: 26 November, 2018 at 7:37 pm:
” … Maybe I’m wrong but I thought that GERS was produced by the Scottish Government.”
Well! Pete, you are not wrong but you are also wrong. Let me explain.
1 – The figures are taken from the ONS, (The UK Office of National Statistics), there are no other official statistics to be had.
2 – When they say they are produced by the SG they do not mean the SNP or indeed the Scottish Parliament as such but by Civil Servants. Thing is there are two lots of Holyrood Civil Servants – one lot are Westminster Civil Service employees and the other lot are employed by the SG as the Scottish Government.
No prizes for guessing which lot of Civil Servants are responsible for the GERS Report Figures. Does that aid the understanding?
BTW: GERS reports are not the only things undertaken by those Whitehall Civil Servants. Think of the audits reports that so often point accusing fingers at the SNP SG.
Re; Nana@7.33pm
Thank you for the link Nana, well worth a watch/listen.
Pete@7.37pm
Pete I believe Lenny Hartley @7.47pm answered part of your question.
Why do the SNP not say what I and many others say that GERS is is pure propaganda. It can be frustrating as I remember that prat Piers Morgan quoting GERS to Sturgeon. I guess the SNP have to decide what fights they want to take on. I can call it how I see it. A quick look at fairly recent Wings post on GERS demolishes it’s credibility.
A simple way of explaining it without all the economics is to ask would you let your neighbour receive your salary, let your neighbour tell you what you earned, give you some back (Scottish gov budget), let your neighbour spend money on home improvements, a new car and a big telly on a credit card it says is in your name and tells you you owe a fortune. What would any normal sane person think about this arrangement? I’m being ripped off come to mind.
The UK government owns 62% of RBS.
Most of the bank has been rebranded for different parts of the UK. The biggest being England’s Nat West, with the RBS brand only applying to Scotland where its size has diminished so much it now just a ‘local’ Scottish bank, and last but not least the Ulster Bank.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45055421
“RBS was bailed out by the government at the height of the financial crisis and is still about 62% publicly owned.
Last month, the government lost £2.1bn after selling a tranche of RBS shares at 271p each, almost half the 502p a share it paid for them in 2008.”
So why is RBS being divided up among the countries of the UK?
Answers on a postcard.
“about roughly half the population are less than bright”
Well, 50% of the population are of below average intelligence. It couldn’t possibly be otherwise.
Nicola Sturgeon cannot safely call another Scottish independence referendum until the Brexit point of no return in other words as long as Theresa May Westminster the British government can continue to negotiate and change or ammend clauses in Brexit it is not safe to have a Scottish independence referendum.
You can see quite clearly and categorically just how important fishing is to Theresa May Westminster the British government by looking at events this past weekend and fishing is just a small part of Scotlands economy so it’s clear as day just how important the Scottish economy its resources land etc is to Englands economy.
I read today that if Theresa Mays deal is rejected in Westminster there will be a last ditch effort by Westminster to avoid a Brexit no deal crash out and that the EU will assist any efforts to avoid a no deal crash out but it would have to be done by the time the EU elections take place in May 2019.
So there we have it, time and time again Theresa May Westminster British government say that this is the final Chance to reach agreement only to then announce a week or two later that another meeting is to take place to discuss things further, we have seen this over and over again so it’s very astute and patient that Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t just rush in before ALL and I mean ALL the facts about the FINAL and I do mean FINAL Brexit agreement is known.
@cubby
You forgot the “holidays” abroad.
Albert Herring@9.15pm
LOL yes you are right and the nights out on the town and the new yacht.
Valerie @ 19:18,
The UK Government has always had full powers over non-EU immigration. It didn’t need to leave the EU to get what it already always had. Though from media coverage you (ie. anyone) would hardly know it.
But even by its own twisted standards, UKGov hasn’t done at all well on that score. So much for the alleged benefit of “taking control”. Now in its xenophobic mania it has even descended to expelling decent highly-qualified people simply because they voluntarily declare an error on their tax return. (This apparently makes them “a danger to national security” somehow.)
All of which has nothing whatever to do with the EU.
Just one more diversion blamed on the EU by the unscrupulous who have been feeding an unsuspecting populace with insidious lies for decade after decade. Corroding democracy from the inside. (As if they care.)
@Terry says: 26 November, 2018 at 7:40 pm
” … I wish they’d stop referring to the UK as a country. It is not. Thanks to Robert Peffers in particular I’ve discovered how crucial this issue is. (I hope I’m getting this right !?!?)”
Aye! You are getting it right but also missing a vital point.
The UK is not a country it is a two partner united kingdom.
England is a country but England is also a three country kingdom while Scotland is a country and also a one country kingdom.
Westminster is the parliament of a two kingdom united kingdom but it operates as if it were the de facto parliament of the Kingdom of the country of England, (not even the parliament of the Kingdom of England).
There has been no parliament of England since 1 May 1707 when the union began.
Yet Westminster has devolved powers as if the country of England is the legally sovereign power and the three other countries, (including the only actual legal partner in the United Kingdom, Scotland), were dominions, (dominated by), the country of England.
The proof of that is the use of EVEL to exclude all others from interference in what Westminster deems to be England only matters.
Scotland the country will stay in the EU on its own terms as per its democratic right to do so. The ‘Nostalgic Brits’ and ‘Rural Concerns’ do not speak for Scotland.
‘we mapped voter sentiment by creating a classification of Westminster Parliamentary Constituencies. We find there are four distinct clusters: Domestic Liberals; International Liberals; Nostalgic Brits and those with Rural Concerns. By focusing on the topics of the petitions signed within each Constituency, we provide insight in to the views which shape political debate, for example the two liberal clusters were generally more anti-Brexit while the Nostalgic Brits and Rural Concerns were far more conservative in their views’
https://popgeog.org/2018/11/21/mapping-brexit-votes-using-novel-e-petition-data-and-machine-learning/
The marine coastline has been given no consideration at all, another reason for Scotland to remain in the EU and protect its unique marine ecology.
‘For example, the management of marine biodiversity after Brexit is uncertain. While some attention has been paid to commercial fisheries, including a recently-launched Parliamentary inquiry, the future of marine habitats and species has received almost no press. The UK’s marine biodiversity is beautiful, productive, and unique. Our marine species and habitats support a wealth of essential ecosystem services, including commercial fisheries, and deserve as much consideration as our economy, immigration, and trade systems.
The marine ecosystem does not recognize political boundaries. Mobile species, such as fish and cetaceans, swim between European economic zones, and therefore require transboundary management measures. It is unrealistic to manage UK waters in isolation.
International collaboration is required to address transboundary challenges’
https://www.britishecologicalsociety.org/marine-environment-brexit/
There is a good chance that the Scottish fisherman end up with a worse deal than at present – unless Scottish independence saves them. The UK will be in a weaker position than Heath was in the 70’s. Bertie Armstrong ( why don’t people like him just wear their sash all the time so everyone can see who they really are) will of course still just blame the SNP.
Fishermen – like turkeys voting for Xmas when they vote for the Tories.
schrodingers cat Corbyn backs permanent Customs Union membership for the UK, Hammond is apparently urging May to shift to that if she cannot get her Deal through and the Commons could vote for that, an amendment to stay in the Customs Union lost by just 307 to 301 votes in July with 12 Tory rebels voting with Labour to stay in the Customs Union
Cubby Leaving the Common Fisheries Policy requires leaving the EU and not going back, so the SNP would have to commit to back Brexit if they want to back Scottish fishermen
The SNP Government sensibly doesn’t waste time anymore arguing about GERS figures apart from noting that they in no way represent the sort of spending an independent Scotland would make.
Terence Callachan Except while 61% ie a majority of Scottish exports (even excluding those in transit) go to England a majority of English exports do not go to Scotland.
@Cubby
Sorry if I didn’t make things clear enough. Yes Scotland’s resources are vast and are as you say removed with little in return – I alluded to that point when talking about exports.
But money moves resources. The pie I refer to is the supply of £s. We deal in fiat money since the end of the gold standard in 1971. Fiat money is simply created by double entry book keeping (the creation electronically of an asset and liability). It is costless to create – not something you will hear from britnat economists.
Economist John Kenneth Galbraith remarked “The process by which money is created is so simple that the mind is repelled”. This thinking is very much discouraged by the mainstream media.
The real underlying wealth is a nations sovereign food, energy and resources. We have the resources but we need a central bank to create our own fiat money supply and a treasury which can tax in that currency. The act of taxing disciplines the populace to use the currency.
It’s laughable the utterly arrogant nonsense being spouted going forward how “England will have the whip hand” – even with Scotland in a large trading bloc like the SM and a London facing trade tariffs. Apart from anything else, think about energy. Think about what London is doing not what it is saying. If anyone is in doubt, just look how willing London is to help the Saudi’s incinerate Yemeni babies for some of the black stuff.
I believe it is crucial to make people understand what money actually is, and what it’s not. When you understand the first principles, everything else become much easier to understand.
Here is the resident Britnat Tory from England’s explanation of why there is no written constitution for the UK. The Westminster parliament can change it at any time in the future so there is no point in writing it down. Don’t hurt yourself laughing now.
Cubby True, no Westminster Parliament can bind its successors.
Intellect we are up against…
Me: You name me any scenario where WM refuses a Section 30 or tries to delay it, which does not breach the Treaty of Union, ending that Treaty ?
Name one ?
Lochside: “Anytime”!
Dear god !!
poor fuddillly
He’s trying so hard. Obviously on time and a half. Trouble for the uv-nokippers /british nationalists is that they have been found out.
Shot themselves in both feet and hopping to the cliff edge. They are not believed in any shape or form.
The young voters see through them, the previous No’s but pro EU have changed allegiances.
Yes to Independence, No to Brexit
Robert Peffers@9.23pm
Great post as usual. Please keep on making the point that it is Westminster who do not respect the Union. It is Westminster who by introducing EVEL disrespect their precious Union.
Am I correct in saying that the crest in the front of the podium that Theresa May has been using (on the telly) shows the Lion and the Unicorn to represent the two kingdoms and the shield between them the four countries.
mr thms says:
26 November, 2018 at 9:11 pm
The UK government owns 62% of RBS.
Most of the bank has been rebranded for different parts of the UK. The biggest being England’s Nat West…””
…..
RBS was not rebranded as Nat West in England. Nat West was a large bank with most of its branches in England. In the late 1990s it got into difficulties. Bank of Scotland launched an unsuccessful takeover bid for it in 1999.
RBS then successfully bid for it in 2000. The Nat West name was kept but it was fully a part of RBS. After the crash RBS was told to sell off some of the Nat West branches – about 300 odd down south and around 6 in Scotland. Various bids were put in but not sure who ended up buying them.
The resident Britnat Tory English plonker is like the annoying drunk in the pub that no one wants to talk to but keeps trying to but into your conversations. After a while your patience wears thin and you end up telling him to fuck off.
So fuck off you prick.
schrodingers cat @ 19:09,
Unlikely as it may currently seem, I have a gut feeling that Mayhem will win her upcoming Withdrawal vote in the HoC.
The Tories will all rally to her if only to save face. The Remainers will console themselves with the thought that it’s better than the likely alternatives. The no-deal-ers won’t want to be branded as renegade back-stabbers, will be content for the moment just to drag us all past the point of no return, then wait their chance to take over.
As for Labour, confused and divided as you rightly observe them to be, some like Kate Hoey are themselves ardent Leavers and will vote with the Tories, and I can see sufficient of the rest funking the issue and abstaining (their default position on pretty much anything these days) to allow Mayhem to squeak her squalid sell-out through.
All despite my aging Nostrodimmus(TM) Mk.1 crystal ball finding this prediction hard to lock on to, even after the occasional helpful dunt. (It keeps telling me that the future isn’t what it used to be. =sigh=)
Not that it makes any difference really. Bad deal or no deal, it’s a bust. Even Leavers are slowly beginning to realise that they’ve been conned, merely used to instigate a right-wing “Henry VIII” quasi-coup “in the name of the people”.
In a couple of weeks we’ll finally be able to prove to their dwindling numbers in Scotland that they have just become eminently disposable pawns in the vassal state’s abused and neglected vassal state.
“In a couple of weeks we’ll finally be able to prove to their dwindling numbers in Scotland that they have just become eminently disposable pawns in the vassal state’s abused and neglected vassal state.”
I’m not sure the penny will drop that easily. The media are uniting behind May. The Farquharsons, massies etc and the rest of the neoliberal (non dom, billionaire) funded agencies are in overdrive. People might have to endure the pain first. Hope I’m wrong.
P.s you’ll hear lost about the “U.K. single market” and the narrative that most of our trade is domestic. It’s a bit like saying your carrying capacity is limited with one arm tied behind your back. The question should be – how’s that setup benefiting the majority in Scotland?
Cubby,
Sorry, not following. Who are you having a go at now?
Hamish100 Not necessarily, even in the even of No Deal Brexit, by far the SNP and Yes campaigns best chance for winning an independence referendum, Yes is not guaranteed to win. Panelbase for example has it No 52% Yes 48% in the event of an independence referendum after the UK left the EU without an arrangement on future trading arrangements.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/no-deal-brexit-pushes-scots-to-break-from-the-uk-shows-poll-5kkpfb2dv
Scottie Dog@9.36pm
No problem with you explaining some aspects of economics. I did realise your post was about money etc. I have a good understanding of economics fiscal and monetary. The UK did of course abandon the gold standard on two earlier occasions in the last century.
I just couldnt resist using the pie statement.
Cubby I would prefer an English Parliament to EVEL but obviously English MPs should only vote on English only laws, Scotland has its own Parliament at Holyrood to vote on Scottish only laws
Essexexile@10.08pm
not following your post. Try and make more of an effort to communicate.
Britnats lie and the resident Britnat on Wings is one of the biggest liars.
Hae a swatch at this and check out the Unlucky 13.
Not representing their Remain Voting Constituents (or unconfirmed, do not wanting their views known publicly yet).
Not archived so functionality works.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/how-will-your-mp-vote-on-theresa-mays-brexit-deal
Looks like Zoomer Bojo Fanboy Ross Thomson making an official play for Mundells job by being a loyal cap doffing lickspittle.
It is now being reported that Trump has said the Brexit deal as it stands may mean that it makes a trade deal with the US is unlikely.
Another wheel comes off.
Italians brought us great cafes ice cream and spaghetti when they came to Scotland
Indians and Pakistanis brought us our new national dish of curries and yummy kebabs, they also keep their shops open till all hours to make a living and serve us at the same time
Chinese people brought us the flavours of the Orient
Poles have been working in our country since I was a boy and flew more Hurricanes in the BOB than English pilots
All of these people have benefitted Scotland and so much so we call their children Doctor or Nurse now and a whole host of other professions, they are our people, they work, they live have families pay tax the same as all of us, my own Doctor for thirty years was Syrian
While we attempt to keep all of our people here in their homes in Scotland the go to phrase for the troll brigade is that Scotland is anti English and yet the only people who are anti anybody are in England because they want to throw our people out if they don’t comply with some made up loophole the English government can find to get them out or they wouldn’t have tried throwing out so many of the Windrush people out under the cover of darkness, and kept on doing it even after they were found out
We have detention centres in Scotland holding people without charge that our own government can’t even enter
What kind of government is it that won’t allow people to work while their claims are being *processed* what kind of government forces people to the point of starvation and homelessness, what kind of government has mobile vans plastered in posters reading if you think someone’s illegal phone this number to contact our *hostile environment* advisors
The reason they always go to the anti English rhetoric is because they’re anti everybody who’s not them so it’s the first thing they accuse others of because it’s who they are
Whereas in Scotland we’re anti arsehole, and if the cap fits
I have a nightmare!
That one day soon the corrupt Tories will offer yet another £Billion bribe to the Catholic Hating DUP to pass the Brexit Bill.
I fear that MI6 will have been used to gather evidence on the Red & Blue Tories who are peodos, sex pests, general deviants or closet homosexuals.
Vote for Brexit or your lives are changed forever.
I fear a glut of Knighthoods, OBE’s, MBE’s etc will be offered to dissenters who will vote for Brexit for purely personal gain.
I fear the threat of deselection and expenses fraud will see many MPs change their Brexit stance.
The Tory backers can offer very lucrative seats on the Board of their companies if they just change their tune on Brexit.
Ruthless corruption is the Master of Westminster!
Bribes and threats are powerful weapons that numb the mind and pierce the heart of those who would tread the path of righteousness.
HYUFD says:
26 November, 2018 at 9:33 pm
“61% ie a majority of Scottish exports go to England”
Right, can you please tell us how much of that 61% corresponds to:
a) Scottish items that are heading for countries abroad but that have to leave the UK via an English port and that would leave from a Scottish port should Scotland be an independent country
b) Scottish produce that is “exported” to England only to be prepared and packed and then to be shipped back to Scotland to be sold in Scotland’s supermarkets -again these “exports” would not need to happen should Scotland become an independent country as the “preparing and packing” will no doubt be done in Scotland retaining jobs, salaries, taxes etc that would be recycled into the Scottish economy instead.
Now, you claim that a majority of England’s exports “do not go to Scotland”. How are those “exports” calculated? I ask because I could confidently say that over 90% of the UK products I buy via internet come from England and the reason is because there is not a Scottish alternative. Also, in the supermarkets, the overwhelming majority of the UK produce is from England. So what I see does not tally at all with your “percentages”.
In any case, your “percentage of exports” doesn’t actually tell us much. We know that England exports around 60 bn to Scotland. While Scotland exports around 50 bn to England. 60 bn is around a 50% of the eyewatering deficit of trade of goods that England currently has, so it is by no means insignificant. On the other hand, it is the current gerrymandering of England MPs in the cabinet what will determine the future relationship of England with the EU and most probably with Scotland. So if England is prepared to lose those 60 bn in trade with Scotland, then presumably will be losing as well all the current trade that England has with the world by using the current EU trade agreements. Now, you don’t seem to mention any of that, I wonder why, because you may actually find that when you realise that most of the external trade (if not all, actually) that England does currently is by taking advantage of the EU trade deals, you may find that the 60% of trade that Scotland may lose with England is nothing compared with the percentage of trade, external and internal that England will lose. I though it was pertinent to point this out to you, as you seem to be looking just to a tiny section of reality and not to the whole picture.
Now, part of the whole picture is the fact that independently of the percentage of trade that England does with Scotland, its stake in Scotland’s economy is simply enormous and the clues are screaming around you. You cannot just look at “trade”, you have to look at the whole thing. I mean, how much revenue do English ports get from the export of Scotland’s produce? How many salaries and the taxes from those salaries the export of Scotland’s produce is generating in England? How much revenue do the distribution centres and the packing and preparing sites in England get from Scotland’s economic activities? And what about salaries? The taxes from those salaries? What about corporation tax for each and every shop/business/etc that operates in Scotland but has its hq in England? And where do those business operating in Scotland with HQ in England pay our VAT? How many jobs are all those insurance companies, energy companies, telephone companies etc are creating in England due to the economic activities in Scotland? Where does our DVLA tax go? Our NI? Have you had a look recently to our supermarkets? I have a particular interest for knowing where the products originate from, where they are packed and where they are distributed. I was amazed to find out that in the supermarket where I shop, the overwhelming majority of UK produce comes from England. But what amazed me even more is to find out that Scotland’s produce comes with packaging from England!
As I said, you are not really looking at the whole picture, far from it. England has an enormous stake in Scotland’s economic activities and it stands to lose far more than Scotland does, hence May’s desperation to protect “the internal market”. In fact, Scotland appears to be kept deliberately as a consumer in this “UK internal market” so England benefits from all the jobs and the revenues that come with them. It doesn’t take to be Einstein to realise that this marked unbalance between where the economic activities take place and where the jobs are generated and the revenues paid will quickly dissipate in an independent Scotland. I think that is one powerful reason for England MPs to oppose viscerally to independence.
@Cubby says: 26 November, 2018 at 9:36 pm:
” … Here is the resident Britnat Tory from England’s explanation of why there is no written constitution for the UK. The Westminster parliament can change it at any time in the future so there is no point in writing it down.”
His problem, and he is not alone, is that the United Kingdom does have a written constitution and it is very, very precise – but they don’t want you to know that.
The United Kingdom’s Written Constitution has the sovereign authority and the royal seals of two monarchies attached to it.
It was written in 1706/7 and is titled, “The Treaty of Union”. Unfortunately it has never actually been enforced by the Westminster Parliament that acts, not as a United Kingdom Government, but as the de facto parliament of country of England yet no parliament of the country of England has sat since 30 April 1707.
If you do not believe me ask yourself two questions, “what is the purpose of EVEL”? and Where is the elected as such Parliament of the Country of England?
legerwood
Whats the song? ” No wheels on my wagon….”
Effigy
You’re right though, it’s what they do, checkbook and honours democracy
‘The Campbell is coming.’
Professor John Robertson: “My view is that he’s the least trusted political reporter at Pacific Quay, for good reason.”…
https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/11/26/the-campbell-is-coming-as-glenn-campbell-returns-to-the-frontline-is-he-the-most-awoke-unionist-at-the-bbc/
……….
@ Cubby at 9:53pm …
Falling right into the tr*ll trap with that post, imo. Why not just ignore them instead of constantly encouraging them?
Essexexile
no If you are referring to the comment about the drunk in a pub then no it is not you I am referring to. I never thought you were a resident Tory English plonker. Just someone into grammar.
I am referring to the guy who loves to see his initials fuddillity all over Wings. You know the BLOCK CAPITAL initials. The guy who posts non stop misinformation.
Effigy @ 10.21
Then rest easy my friend because…
A Tory Nightmare has not the power of Dr MLKs dream..
Building a Country where the content of yer character always matters more…
Is a Dream that can never die!!
It’s just our turn to take it forward is all!
BREAK: Donald Trump says Theresa May’s Brexit deal sounds like a good deal for the EU and it means “the UK may not be able to trade with the US”.
the right wing is swinging behind no deal
The only country on the entire planet that can’t be Independent is Scotland
Y’see how insultingly stupid that makes them
schrodingers cat
Farage has been on the phone to his pal, then his pal phones Boris and says OK pal it’s in the bag big Donny’s sorted it
#Legerwood @ 9:52 pm
Hi Legerwood thanks for your reply.
I noticed the rebranding of RBS banks for the different parts of the UK some time ago. It is not something you expect from a multinational UK bank.
https://www.rbs.com/rbs/news/2017/10/natwest-brand-takes-centre-stage-at-banks-iconic-250-bishopsgate.html
“250 Bishopsgate, one of Bishopsgate’s most iconic buildings and home to RBS in London since 2007, has been rebranded from RBS to NatWest.
This change marks the bank’s continuing implementation of the branding strategy announced last year, which is about refocusing the strong customer brands back on their core markets in the UK and Ireland. This means NatWest in England and Wales, Ulster Bank in Ireland and the Royal Bank of Scotland in Scotland.”
My contention is that the ‘branding strategy’ RBS is pursuing has more to do with the dissolution of the UK following Brexit..
Aw this typing about ‘legal tender’ and stuff.
Here’s a quote from the link further down…
“Today the Bank of England is the central bank of the UK and as such is the sole lawful issuer of legal-tender banknotes in England and Wales. In Scotland and Northern Ireland certain commercial banks are authorised, most recently under the Banking Act 2009, to issue banknotes alongside the BoE.
Scottish and Northern Ireland banknotes are fully backed with Bank of England banknotes, coin or interest-bearing accounts with the Bank of England. The bank’s own website notes:
“Today, the combined circulation value of notes issued by the authorised banks in Scotland is in the region of £3.5 billion.
In accordance with the terms of the 2009 Act and the associated Banknote Regulations and Rules, issuing banks require to fully back their notes at all times with ring-fenced assets held partly in Bank of England notes and UK coin and partly in deposits held at the Bank of England.
This, of course, means that holders of banknotes issued by the Scottish banks receive the same level of protection as that provided to holders of Bank of England notes.””
And here’s the link, from May 15, 2014; an article written by Scott Minto:-
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-pounds-in-your-pockets/
And from that page, a btl comment…
“I forgot to say that these three banks already have exact reserves to cover those banknotes in circulation at the BoE, and all they would have to do is withdraw their deposits and ship them to Glasow or Edinburgh to sit in their own vaults to cover the bankotes aleady in circulation – and to print whatever allowance over 100% they were allowed to do (by the Scottish Government presumably).
Beware the sequel to the Great Train Robbery!”
HYUFD
Hired Yoon Uttering Falsehoods & Delusion.
Hype Your Union’s Fascist Destination.
Hideous Yob’s Unrealistic Fabrication Debunked.
@ Maria F at 10:52pm ….
Excellent post Maria.
…………………
If you think it’s bad now it can surely get worse. I see (online) that many previously staunch Tory supporters are now saying that they’ll be supporting UKip in future. Can you imagine being ruled over by UKip or a UKip coalition, such as Tory, DUP, UKip, in the months / years to come?
Time to call it a day. Get out now.
Thanks Robert Louis
Petra @10.26pm
Very good advice. Advice I have given out to others myself in the past. I do try to ignore this particular diddy but the blatant lies do get right up my nose. I do not engage in a discussion with him – hence I do not use his name – just throw out insults. Pointless I know.
England angry with Brexit is now turning its attention to Scotland.
Here on wings we are seeing the start of their campaign against Scottish independence
They are so worried now that their shrinking influence is dawning on them
They don’t have any new insults no new lies just the same old idiotic drivel
They will put up a border between England and Scotland haha there are already two nobody uses
They fret that Scotland will not have a currency and claim that we will therefore be the only country in the world without a currency-AS IF-they are laughable.
They say England will not trade with Scotland as punishment I suppose for stopping them ripping us off but to be honest most of the stuff I see that they put the Union Jack on is Scottish stuff anyway and I’ve always wondered why I can only buy English Cornish salt or English Malden salt in Scottish supermarkets but then again is it any wonder when we look at the rest of their behaviour.Scotland has its own Hebridean Salt ,Orkney salt ,Shetland salt etc and after Scottish independence it will replace the English stuff on the supermarket shelves.
English cheese English ham will be replaced with good Scottish cheese and Scottish ham there is so much English stuff that we will dump and replace with our own superior Scottish goods.
A new deal will have to be made for all the oil ,gas ,water, electricity that we send from Scotland to England but the new deal will be different it will require England to pay for it.
Scotland will have its own passport too and it will be BLUE.A Scottish BLUE.
Scotlands railways will be nationalised all the best railways in the world are nationalised you cannot have competition when there is just the one train going to a destination at a particular time ,we now have the worst possible service that could be thought up as we see every day in this mess that Westminster have created.
Scotland will not have a House of Lords ,that will save a fortune why pay people £300 a day plus food drinks transport and all the other perks and insider information to people who either sleep at their work or leave after 5 mins attendance .
Scotland will have a choice we may join the EU ,we may not, we in Scotland will decide that for ourselves.
We in Scotland will make our own decisions about immigration we will not do what England does we will not separate parents and children ,we will not deport people who have a right to live here we will be fair open and honest unlike Westminster and it’s home office.
There will be no Scottish wind rush.
No Scottish paradise papers
No Scottish Cambridge analytica
No Scottish Nigel farage
No Scottish BBC
Scotlands housing will be superior it will be available to all no more holiday let’s preventing our young folk from living in their home town
Scotlands land will be returned to Scottish ownership there will be no more cruel hunting of defenceless animals
There’s so much more
Time for bed
Goodnight
Trump says Theresa May’s Brexit deal will make it difficult for the UK to trade with the US.
Every cloud has its silver lining, as they say!
Only the most swivel eyed right wing loons actually want a TTIP style deal on steroids !
MariaF Those are the raw figures ie 61% of Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK. I turn the tables, can you prove most of that 61% is just Scottish exports passing through England in transit to abroad or to be packaged? If not then my figure stands. Scotland’s market to England is bigger than that to the rest of the world combined. England though only sends a minority of its exports to Scotland.
Of course if England is used it is because it is most likely to be closer to the ultimate destination on the continent. If they could not travel through England that of course raises the transport costs
Brian Doonthetoon@10.41pm
Excellent post. For many a year I used to fly on an almost weekly basis from Scotland to many airports in England but, particularly London, on business. I always had to get B.of England notes at the airport. People in England just would not take Scottish notes. In Scotland, of course, BoE notes are accepted with no issue. So much for the one country fantasy. So much for the family of nations. It is England that behaves as if Scots are foreigners with a foreign currency.
Where is the British currency for the country of Britain. Or to be more exact where is the UKOGBANI currency.
There is one change that will make me refuse English notes – Thatchers ugly mug on them. That is just not acceptable.
Terence Callachan Most Scottish landowners are Scots, just rich Scots. If you are going to ban grouse shooting and deer stalking and fishing that is half the Scottish rural economy gone
Galamcennalath@10.50pm
If we ever get our meat from the USA I will be going vegetarian.
61% + said Remain.
hfud and the tories say No.
We should all go home and be quiet.
Brexiters are worried they are still up at 11pm
Independence or Brexit
Just in from a community meeting in Pollokshields/Govanhill.
Nicola Sturgeon attended the meeting which had a few hundred in attendance. Nicola stayed to the end and then posed for photographs and talked to reporters.
We are so privileged to have a person of such quality taking us forward. Nicola is a class act and is the chosen one who will lead us to Independence.
We are not worthy Nicola.
God bless you Nicola,,,and here’s wishing you good health for the up and coming Campaign.
Dr Jim Bavaria, Naples, Flanders, Venice, Texas, the Maharajah states etc all were at one time independent countries
@ Maria F
An aspect of creating difficult trading conditions between Scotland and England which you have highlighted superbly is of course the employment transferred to England which should really be based in Scotland. Civil service employment is always highlighted, we pay handsomely for the service with no benefits accrued. One that isnt, is the oil industry. Some 300,000 thousand people are employed in England, thousands in planning in London of course, but manufacturing for the industry is a huge employer. Not forgetting the 8 refineries supplied by Scotland’s oil. I don’t think hard borders and difficult trading links are going to help employment in South Britain.
For any lurkers who are undecided or thinking of voting YES, please read all postings by HYUFD carefully, but with a very large pinch of salt. If you vote NO, that’s what you’re voting to share a supposedly equal Union with – someone who hopes that the rUK would try to impose massive tarrifs on Scotland if we went Independent, for example. Who would cut off the rUK’s nose (their trade with us) to spite our faces.
Is that what you want to be ruled by? To make your decisions?
Terence Callachan@10.47pm
Missed an important one. Trident no more. Plus a short term extremely expensive rental agreement for using Scottish waters until it is removed.
Yesindyref2 By definition given the UK is leaving the single market there will be at least non tariff trade barriers between England and an independent Scotland, if it leaves the customs union there would be tariffs too unless and until any England-Scotland FTA were agreed
hyfud
Wasn’t the east coast of England Danish and the south coast norman French and then there were the romans….
Is that why little Englanders hate foreigners because they are of that ilk. Farage, boris……….?
Just askin.
Collie@11.06pm
Good post. A pleasant change. Please try and remember that Independence supporters come in all forms with a range of experiences and interests. Even rugby fans can be Independence supporters.
@HYUFD
That’s the spirit lad. Now, from your croft, tenement or peat bog in Epping at the end of the Central line to London and Dover Hosue via the Jubilee line, with your once a year trip to Edinburgh, how abouf if you give us all a lecture on our customs here in Scotland, our dialects and languages, our economy and our history?
I can’t wait!
Yesindyref2@11.08pm
You make a very good point.
It would be like the abusive partner saying please stay we are family, I love you, but if you try to leave I will kick the living daylights out of you.
Hamish100 says:
26 November, 2018 at 10:23 pm
legerwood
Whats the song? ” No wheels on my wagon….”
……………….
Aye, and the spares are held up in customs because they come from Germany, or wherever we no longer have a trade deal.
@Cubby
Ummm, I think “the chosen one” and “We are not worthy Nicola” kind of gives the game away.
Point taken Cubby
Yesindyref2
What a total wanker and waste of space you are ya fuckin prick.
And that’s me in a good mood, you should see me when am really angry,,dickheed
Cubby Fine, remove Trident, just hope Mr Putin is not eyeing up all that oil you claim to be so proud of!
@Legerwood
There’s a strange thing with suppliers, that they (we) sometimes work to full capacity, and if any sale is more difficult than others, well, it gets put to the back of the queue. Same thing is it becomes less profitable, or even not profitable at all.
Cubby As Brexit proves divorces never go smoothly and are frequently bitter
Reminds me of someone, was it Danny and/or someone else like that?
Hamish100 Well I myself have Norman and Huguenot ancestors so am part French myself yes, I have never been anti French and do not hate foreigners
HYUFD
Just Independent Scots?
Ooops.
“Donald Trump says Brexit deal ‘means UK may not be able to trade with US'”
Waddya think HIFUD? Is he bluffing?
Anyways, back to work for me.
@Cubby says: 26 November, 2018 at 10:43 pm:
” … Very good advice.”
It is demonstratively utter claptrap.
” … Advice I have given out to others myself in the past.”
And that was a blinkered load of claptrap too. Not to mention self delusional claptrap. You spout what you personally deem to be advice but which is in fact contrary to the whole ethos of not only Wings but the entire Indy movement.
Our primary raison d’être is to vote for independence supporting parties. Our secondary, but most important raison d’être is to convert non-indy minded people to support indy.
You cannot do that by not engaging in debate with them. Failure to do so will result in stalemate and an abrupt end to any hope of independence for our country.
I’ll engage in debate with anyone from Her Majesty herself to the latest immigrant to our country/Kingdom. It may not convert them but the mere fact I engaged with them provides an opportunity to make the path to independence the norm and not, as it was when I first supported indy and we were regarded by the majority as the lunatic fringe – now we could well be the majority and the unionist becoming the lunatic fringe.
Even if the person engaged with on an open forum is never going to become an indy supporter there is every chance that someone reading the exchange of views might just say to themselves about what is commented, “Here, that guy has a point”, and thus proves that even if he/she is not converted they at least have just one little bit more information than they had before reading, or overhearing it.
The most converts I ever got at one time was in a local co-op when I was got at by a real ultra-unionist. This guy was really aggressive and was shouting out loud with much anger and I had said nothing to him. He just didn’t like the YES badge on my hat.
Anyway I answered his many claims with reasoned argument and would not be browbeaten. He eventually stormed off in high dudgeon. To my great surprise I was surrounded by other customers telling me that he had been needing , “telt”, for a long time. Several others told me they had learned a thing or three.
In fact I spent some time answering more questions. Did it make converts? I don’t know but it sure as hell made quite a few think about the subject and that helps to make independence the norm and not the threat.
Yesindyref2
You are either a full blown lunatic OR you are sitting at that computer of yours sooking away at bottles of cheap wine.
Get off of my case dickheed,,,you have been warned sunshine.
collie
Calm down dear, calm down.
@Collie
We have minimum pricing on alcohol, here in Scotland.
@ Yesindyref2
People lie when telling the truth has consequences. In Scotland after this union is binned, the angriest people are going to be former no voters.
@HYUFD says: 26 November, 2018 at 10:59 pm:
” … MariaF Those are the raw figures ie 61% of Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK. I turn the tables, can you prove most of that 61% is just Scottish exports passing through England.
No, HYUFD, of course we cannot because a great deal of it stays in England. The Grid Connection charges for example and Scotland has been a net exporter of electric power to England since 1946 when the first cross-border grid line ran from the Portobello power station into England. Then we have between 95% and 98% of what the UK claims as UK oil & gas that is extracted from territorial waters under Scottish jurisdiction.
100% of Scotch is made in Scotland and the bulk of it claimed as English exports along with 70% of UK Gin that is produce of Scotland. The bulk of Scottish Salmon also leaves the UK and is classed as English exports and that is just for starters.
By far the most telling statistic is that even including the above the fact remains that the kingdom of England countries are net importers while only Scotland in the UK is a net exporter.
You blether pish and lies here on Wings every time you comment. However, we must thank you for your contribution for it provides opportunity to prove you are a fraud and spout arrant nonsense.
Robert Peffers@11.38pm
Hey I am honoured it took a lot time for me to get the famous Peffers utter claptrap. In fact I got the blinkered claptrap and the self delusional claptrap as well. Seriously, I have a lot of respect for your posts but I have to point out you did recently say yourself you would no longer be engaging with the resident Britnat English Tory plonker who tells lies all the time. So you make a strong case for your point but even you can get fed up. Even you can spout claptrap by your own well made argument. No one is immune to claptrap but you are the best at spotting it.
In summary, it is always a bit of a conundrum whether to engage or not with Britnat diddies but I have done so extensively with this particular diddy and just got fed up with his flat earther lies. It was pointless he just ignores facts evidence. Keep on posting your good stuff and keep on convincing people of the case for independence.
Hyufd @1131 pm , if Mr Putin is “ eyeing up “ oil, I can certainly think of a small European Independent country ( with a border with Russia , and no nuclear weapons) , with vast quantities . However, I am quite sure that the huge quantities of Russian gas exported to Germany would indicate that he is not really short of hydrocarbons at the moment.
Yesindyref2@11.32pm
Danny was binned for being aggressive and the excessive use of course language.
There should be a rule that you will be binned if you post a certain number of lies within any one calendar month. That could control the posts of a lot of Britnats. Although I suspect Mr Peffers may be on to say “utter claptrap”.
Or get binned if you get claptrapped by Mr Peffers on so many occasions per month.
But is it utter claptrap if you know what you are posting is utter claptrap. Now that sentence sounds like something essexexile might post. Hidden meaning with hidden meaning.
Cubby @ 12.01
Ah … Yer an “amyture”Cubby…
It’s…UTTER PISH….yer lookin fur.
The HYFUD is a boring bugger right enough, naebody here will blame ye if ye disengaged…
The conversation wi Simon is going nowhere anyway… never was really and we’ve all demonstrated in one way or another Simon Simply talks…UTTER PISH…but I think even oor Robert has refrained from that Title…as I suspect the Simon,Simply didn’t even hit that bar?? (Avoiding a pity party I think)
Wee shame really…but naebody forced him here!
You have to laugh at Britnat English Tories from down London way going on about Trident. They would shit themselve going to bed at night if it was berthed up the Thames say near Canary Wharf.
Collie@12.16am
I am very disappointed in you. I thought you were turning over a new leaf.
Yesindyref2 Well as long as the UK stays in the Customs Union it obviously will not have its own trade deals as it will have those done by the EU, so President Trump is correct on that. However as the SNP backs staying in the Customs Union they can have no complaints on that
Cubby I was brought up in a county with a nuclear power station
On oil the sea boundary is not the same in international law as the land boundary. None of the points you make refute the fact that a majority of Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK, that does not mean that no Scottish exports go elsewhere but a majority of them go to the rest of the UK
RE.Cubby @ 12.22
We all make the point of Trident relocating to the Themes,as a ” how would the people who order it to the Clyde like to actually work next to it every day”…but… Can the Themes actually accommodate Trident… I’ve never seen it considered.But the Themes is is a big ass river…. Anybody know for sure???
North Chiel Putin is the type who will never be satisfied and will push for as much as he can get away with, indeed Russian submarines have been spotted off the West coast of Scotland
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2174749/multiple-russian-nuclear-powered-submarines-are-being-hunted-by-the-royal-navy-off-the-west-coast-of-scotland/
An excellent post from “Maria @ 1032 pm”. I previously worked for a “U.K.” company with a London HQ. Whilst a significant proportion of revenue earning “ operations” was from Scotland, the vast proportion of “ admin functions “ was headquartered in London. These reserve admin functions ( including HR, Payroll, Health& safety, training, legal & accouns, IT, vehicle management and other departments) . The “ devolved” admin work as such was minimal . Consequently , the “ Scottish operation” had to pay for this “ admin overheads” via money transfers on a monthly basis. The point being that our “ profitable local operations” had to pay for London admin costs which were proportionally significantly higher than if these admin functions were locally based ( ie. significantly higher office costs, staffing costs etc.) . These over inflated admin charges significantly reduced our bottom line Net Profit . My own calculations indicated that we could have provided the necessary admin functions locally at between 40-50 percent of the Centrallised pro rata costs imposed.
My further point being that these admin functions would have produced local jobs for local people and would have made a significant contribution to the local economy. Now if you think of the number of UK company’s operating in Scotland in a similar manner ( and there are certainly many hundreds in the oil& gas sector) , then you can see why London want to retain all the admin functions centrally ? Following on , is it little wonder that Whitehall and its vast army of tens of thousands of civil servants wish to hold on to all aspects of the reserved functions of Scotland’s government?
It’s ranting like a desperate madman now sitting in its room looking up all the stuff it doesn’t know just so it can rush to fill up the thread with itself and looking sillier and sillier and proving itself to be exactly what everybody knows it to be
A hater and a credit to its delusional British Nationalist type justifying the case beyond any fathomable doubt for Scottish Independence and the need to rid any country of this
“ Hyufd @ 1251 a.m., I have news for you Sir, . Russian subs were regular visitors to Norwegian territorial waters back in the 1970’s during “ the Cold War”
Putin is probably just checking out Islay for a holiday home for when he retires. Cameron probably recommended it. He probably said you can pop over and visit me on Saturdays on Jura and we can have a pint together. Roman like Islay when he visited.
Had a fun time mass blocking zoomers on facebook today.
After debunking and educating the donkey squad.first, obviously.
Not for their benefit, for the benefit of those left behind to read their shite.
“Im pro indy,but not really”, squad…!
……………
Lesley Riddoch excellent on Scotland tonight earlier, didn’t miss and hit the wall, even the other guest, not exactly a pro YESSER had to agree with her, but then, as if prompted, quickly spew out gibberish about how leaving the union would be “even badder/worserer” than leaving the EU, oh dear, not enough time to response lesley…oh dear…imagine that huh ?
As Stu says, “pretending to be stupid”
Thats fine, it is their right, what they do not have the right to do, is to lie to others.
What will journalism look like in an indy Scotland is anyones guess, when 99% of their reason to exist, stopping indy, has dismally failed in that goal.
Oh wait….who cares.