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A funny kind of Unionism

Posted on June 20, 2018 by

In all the excitement of the torching of the devolution settlement, we forgot to mention a curious piece of data from our recent poll of English voters.

Of all the people south of the border who would gladly throw Scotland and Northern Ireland under the bus (and more to the point, out of the UK) in order to ensure England left the EU, by far the most willing were the voters of the only UK party which expressly identifies itself as standing FOR the Union – the Conservative And Unionist Party.

More than half of Tory voters were happy to ditch Scotland for Brexit (54% vs just 27% who weren’t, an exactly 2:1 margin), while supporters of the other two main UK parties didn’t think it was worth losing Scotland for – especially the Lib Dems, whose opinion we’re sure wasn’t coloured by the fact that Scotland provides a third of its current MPs.

And the Tories were almost as happy (this time by 52% to 28%) to wave goodbye to Northern Ireland, although this time Labour and Lib Dem supporters were – albeit very narrowly – with them. Poor old Northern Ireland.

Which means that the Tories in Scotland and Northern Ireland – both of whom are the groups in their respective countries most devotedly attached to their “fellow Brits” in England – are clinging to a nation from which their own Conservative colleagues would drop them like a ticking time-bomb out of a hot-air balloon at the first inconvenience.

Imagine for a moment being a Scottish Tory, knowing that only Labour and Lib Dem supporters in England would miss you if Scotland was independent, while your own party’s supporters enthusiastically waved you “good riddance”.

And worse yet, imagine being a Unionist in Northern Ireland, endlessly and violently proclaiming your undying and passionate love to a country that basically wants nothing to do with you, and would gladly toss you overboard solely in order to make more room to take a shotgun to its own hull.

Like one respondent to an extensive Lord Ashcroft poll published yesterday who put their opinion regarding the people of Northern Ireland and the potential obstacle they pose to Brexit quite bluntly:

And yet nothing seems able to dent the plainly-misguided conviction of the Unionists of Scotland and Northern Ireland that they’re cherished and beloved Celtic cousins in a partnership of equals, rather than the ugly, unwanted mutant stepchildren their English brethren openly and unambiguously regard them as.

It’s a mystifying and tragic tale that someone would make a Hollywood movie out of, if only it wasn’t so creepy and sad and all the protagonists weren’t so horribly unlikeable.

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    274 to “A funny kind of Unionism”

    1. Former vegan god says:

      inadequates the lot of them

    2. Marcia says:

      The love from these Tories for Northern Ireland is just lovely and the DUP still prop up the most dysfunctional government. Even been had DUP?

    3. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Seems all we need to do now then is create a series of difficulties to the progress of the Brexit Bill through WM, and the southern Leaver mob will be positively howling for the UKGov to let us go.

      A win-win all round, it would seem. =grin=

      (Except for the poor benighted BritNat fools here, of course, who would finally discover what their supposed “chums” really think of them.)

    4. Sinky says:

      Interesting stuff. I wonder how much coverage BBC TV / STV/ MSM will give to Guy Verhofstadt at Brexit committee says no opposition to ScotGov single market membership proposals on European side

      So 547 days after it was published, guyverhofstadt has confirmed that ScotGov’s proposals for mitigating the impact on Scotland of UK’s exit from EU – by whole UK staying in the single market and some form of a customs union – would face ‘no opposition’ in Brussels.

      UK Gov wants this for NI but not for Scotland which also voted remain

    5. Arbroath1320 says:

      I’m curious … has anyone built up their courage enough yet to enter the office of the Great Dictator and inform her that her United Kingdom is not as “united” as she wants everyone to believe. 😉

      Has anyone been able to locate the great Colonel, saviour of the universe ground she walks on and inform her of what high regard Scotland is held in by her compatriots down South yet?

      No doubt Messers Corbyn and Leonard are already planning a coup to take over rUK as a result of this news.

      As for wee Willie … well I’m guessing he’s too busy crying over spilt milk to be bothered doing anything else. 😀

    6. Effijy says:

      You see the majority of the English, especially the Tories and Daily Hail readers want to return back to the days of the Empire,
      no matter what it takes.

      They could reintroduce slavery, they could take back their colonies and throw out the indigenous people or kill them like they did back in the good old days.

      England can again steal all the resources from North America, the Caribbean, Africa, India, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, etc

      Westminster sanctioned the murder of over 10,000,000 people to ensure that the rich in England and their politicians were great.

      Everything from using captive Aborigines for target shooting to giving diseased Clothing and Blankets to Woman and Children.
      When that didn’t work during the Boar War, they starved them to death.

      I think the real issue in world war 2 was the Germans suggesting that they were the superior race when it was England all the time

      Even English History books have been altered to show how they won the war?

      As anyone outside of Dan Snow’s version of events would know, the Germans were well on course to win but for the 26,000,000 Russian war dead and America’s involvement with troops and 60 year loan deals, Victory belonged to England.

      Can’t wait for us returning to No NHS, No Workers rights, No Welfare for the sick and disabled, and no pensions.

      Just how great New England could become, no one can estimate.

    7. Bill Hume says:

      Dear Rev, forgot my arse. You were saving the good bit for last.

    8. Artyhetty says:

      I remember seeing the huge new brass plaque on the tory branch office, in Edinburgh with ‘unionist’ added to it, a couple of years ago. Brass neck indeed.

      Scotland, you must be so confused, with the pushing and shoving and pulling and pooling, but definitely not sharing UKgov, Tories and Labour, and Libdems opportunists’ hate/love for you.

      Either continue to be controlled to your detriment Scotland, by your next door nasty scheming, thieving neighbour, or keep that get out of jail card at the ready, to be put on the table when the chips really are down.

    9. Arbroath1320 says:

      Sorry for going O/T so early peeps but I think this news just confirms what a lot of us believe lies at the heart of the Tory party.

      Whilst I’m O/T I’m hearing AUOB are having some problems with the TORY council of Bannockburn over this Saturday’s march, which I’m hearing is anticipating over 6 figures in attendance numbers.

      Apparently the first route put forward was rejected due to road works on the route. The second route was rejected because it would cause a lot of congestion. The council has suggested a third route that has a lot of “up hill down dale” to it which due to the number of wheelchairs expected has been rejected by AUOB I believe. I understand they are currently talking to the police, who in turn are talking to the council, in order to try and get a reasonable route acceptable to all in place for Saturday.

    10. Bob Mack says:

      For the majority of English folk, Brexit overides everything.

      For Westminster the need for Scotlands income overides the English public.

      Who will win. Holyrood must use every conceivable tactic to delay and frustrate Brexit. The English public will do the rest. Besides ,when Brexit does come, that will evidence itself sadly.

    11. Yerkitbreeks says:

      How we have moved on with opinion polls such as this – and even some MSM articles.

      A natural progression l guess- necessary for wider readership.

    12. Welsh Sion says:

      Effijy @ 1:20 pm

      You mention how “the English alone won the Second World War”.

      Don’t we **** well know it! How many times do they resurrect those John Mills et al stiff-upper lip films of English derring-do (often against incredible odds – almost proto-Ramboesque in nature)? And then the heroics of the “English” Royal Air Force chappies who secured the Battle of Britain or were the heroes of the Dambusters (who incidentally practised their bombing techniques in my backyard in Eryri/Snowdonia)?

      Sure, these types existed. But they also needed the help and resources of other nations: Those other countries of these North Atlantic Ocean Islands, the Empire (that was), and many from Eastern and Central Europe (think Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and so on) who also fought in RAF colours.

      It makes you wonder what they put in their tea and what else they drink. I remember an otherwise fairly well-educated English Primary school teacher expressing shock at my dad being based on the Isle of Dogs during WWII and witnessing the doodlebugs smashing into London on a daily basis.

      “But he was Welsh!”

      She was astounded that anyone outside her home country had fought the Axis Powers. Is this what she instils into her young charges? .

      Back to the initial point of this thread. It would seem that the Northern Irish Protestants have been bellowing “No Surrender!” for decades, when in fact the rug could and would be pulled from under their feet at any time by their fellow-Brits. Wouldn’t that go a long way in showing the futility of future commemorations of the Battle of the Boyne and such stuff, and “the sash me Father wore” could at long last be consigned to the bin – along with the racist ideology it indulges in?

    13. Janet says:

      Yup, I’m with the view that a Jocko threat to Brexit is just dandy! English public opinion might very well demand indy!

    14. Arbroath1320 says:

      Eu (withdrawal) bill currently going on in the House of Commons.

      Wonder what, if any, fireworks we will see today. This is the House of Commons debating the EU (withdrawal) bill after its return from the House of Lords who on Monday gave the Tories another kicking on Monday night hence the HoC debating some parts of the bill again today. 😀

    15. Bill Hume says:

      Sorry Janet, I’m with Wee Ginger on this one. There is no magic bullet…..we need to do this ourselves.
      See y’all at Bannockburn (whether the council agrees the march route or not).

    16. Dr Jim says:

      You try to be nice eh, we invented the Telly for them, we gave them Penicillin, Tarmac for their roads, Chloriform, provided soldiers to die first before they did, I mean umpteen things we’ve done for the ungrateful Bastirts and what do we get

      Possibly Independence so to be fair we can’t thank them enough ….thanks England, thank you, thank you, thank you

      Now we really know England can be our best friend…well after Indy of course

    17. Luigi says:

      It’s the old Uncle Tom position – completely devoted to a system that will forever treat you like a piece of crap.

      The conservatives have never been true unionists – more like hardcore, self-centered british nationalists who play the union card when it suits them. And yet they would never admit it.

      The Labour and the LibDem parties are the true unionists. And yet they would never admit it.

      All parties play the Scottish card when it suits, despite the fact that they are all clearly anti-Scottish. And yet they would never admit it.

      So we have self-denial and deception all round, with the British nationalist tory branch office calling itself the Scottish unionist party; and the unionist Labour and LibDem branch offices just calling themselves “Scottish” parties.

      It’s a funny old world. 🙂

    18. Colin Alexander says:

      As I’ve said repeatedly: we only have to achieve the democratic mandate of Holyrood representing the sovereignty of the people of Scotland. We don’t have to frame it as “independence” v the union.

      Instead: Holyrood v Westminster having the final say.

      A union where Scotland can exercise her sovereignty within that union won’t be accepted by the ruling Establishment in England.

      That has already been proven by the devolution clawback.

      A union of equals would be rejected by the ruling Establishment in England.

      The Union would be ended – by the ruling class of England.

    19. Ken500 says:

      Everyone in Britain and elsewhere have been lied to by UK unionist politicians. Completely above the staton of their ability. Promoted above their capibility. They use the secrecy of the Official Secrets Act to get away with murder. Many of them should be in jail. They are above the Law are seldom censored. There is no deterrent to their behaviour. They break the Law with impunity.

    20. Ken500 says:

      It’s not if May and her government goes it’s when. The waiting game.

      The House of Lords can only block a Bill twice. Then it is voted in. The HoL should have been abolished long ago. It is not democrstic. Appointed. Not elected or representational. Full of people over retirement age. Not representational of the society being funded by public money. Making decisions over people’s lives. Getting away with murder. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Embezzlers. Flaunting the Law with impunity.

      Brexit Lawson – HoL member. Lives in France. Has taken French citizenship. French passport. (Joint) Tax evader? Does not pay tax?. Illegally votes in the HoL over Brexit matters and other people’s lives. To be a HoL member must be a British resident citizen paying UK taxes.

      Many union supporters, support the Union but do not want to pay UK taxes. Evade taxes. They want the UK rule but do not want to pay the taxes. Hypocrite.

    21. Fred says:

      U wouldn’t expect a majority of the glish having a great affection for the sweaities but preferring the monkeys on Gib to Ruth & her Unionist crew! deariefuckinme!

    22. Clapper57 says:

      @ Ken500 @ 3.20pm

      Absolutely Ken spot on…they even dragged out Coke head Sewel to defend the indefensible….watched his wee piece on telly and frankly if they hadn’t stated his name I would never have recognised him…without his Bra on !

    23. vagabondo says:

      The result is not surprising if one considers that the Conservative and Unionist party was an amalgamation of the (mostly English) Conservative Party and the Scottish (Liberal) Unionists.
      You polled English voters, not Scottish Tories. Also the Unionists in question were concerned with retaining the 1800 Union with Ireland and against Irish Home Rule. They traditionally took no position on the 1707 Union with England.

    24. Ken500 says:

      Rajoy has returned to his former job as property register, at a small seaside town popular with tourists. After being Ousted as Spanish PM. Retired from public life.

    25. Arbroath1320 says:

      Dominic Grieve’s Amendment B to the EU (withdrawal) bill has been defeated by 319 AGAINST 309 FOR. One question rises to my mind here … how many Labour MP’s voted WITH the Tories to defeat Dominic Grieve (Tory) amendment B? 🙂

    26. Maolbeatha says:

      Odd how some cannot see their place in the world and see themselves as all powerful giving the belief they can do anything. The world owes them everything.

      While others cannot see their potential and fear their future.

      Conditioning is a funny thing.

    27. Donald Bruce says:

      Some more bad news for Scotland’s renewable energy. Due to lack of financial support now being shown by the UK government they are moving the next development stage of tide energy from Scotland to Canada. If the Scots Tories have any backbone now’s the time to get on with their day job. Go on your knees to your masters and ask them to support Scots industry.

    28. Arbroath1320 says:

      Just a wee amendment here.

      I got the figures slightly wrong on the vote, it was in fact:

      Ayes 303

      Noes 319.

      ach what’s six wee votes between friends eh? 😉

    29. Sinky says:

      Another Westminster Power Grab.

      UK Crown Estates have just sold Fort Kinnaird Retail Park in Edinburgh for £167.3m to M & G Estates. This was meant to be devolved under the latest Scotland Bill.

      The management of the Crown Estate in Scotland and its revenues are both reserved under the Scotland Act 1998 with the revenues going directly to the Treasury. The Scottish Law Commission gave guidance as follows: “The constitutional aspects of the Crown and the management of the Crown Estate are reserved matters.

      However, the Crown’s prerogative functions are not reserved nor is property belonging to the Crown. The Crown’s interest as proprietor of the foreshore and sea bed and the public rights held by the Crown in trust for the public are therefore not reserved”.

      Questions should asked on how much of the £167 million is coming to Scotland.

    30. Arbroath1320 says:

      Apologies … AGAIN!

      I have just read this from Sam Coates at the Times on Twitter.

      Utterly sickening.

      THIS is voting Tory produces in 2018!

    31. twathater says:

      Watched daily politics earlier ( I know , I know , will suffer later ) much talk about how 20 billion for NHS will be raised , tory twats saying OAP”S don’t pay NI but millenials do which is unfair , example quoted by tory twat , Sir Alex Ferguson , my how the brit nats cannot hide their hatred of the Jocks even when they supported their bitter thigether

      Also do they not remember us auld gits paid NI all of our working lives , yet now when we are being paid the WORST pension in Europe and having to work longer they want more blood money . FFS don’t target tax avoiding and evading non doms or corporations , footballers and their clubs , celebrities or BBC employees , go for the big money pensioners after all they are nearly deed and are easy targets

      Sir Alex you are JUST a JOCK same as Sir BILLY it will never change you will never achieve english status , are you comfortable with just being a house slave

    32. Arbroath1320 says:

      Not all Scottish football players/managers are … erm … Scottish twathater. 😉

    33. Welsh Sion says:

      Arbroath1320 says:
      20 June, 2018 at 4:07 pm

      Dominic Grieve’s Amendment B to the EU (withdrawal) bill has been defeated by 319 AGAINST 309 FOR. One question rises to my mind here … how many Labour MP’s voted WITH the Tories to defeat Dominic Grieve (Tory) amendment B?


      Here you go, my friend. Click on the images to make ’em bigger.

    34. Welsh Sion says:

      Six Tory MPs – Ken Clarke, Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston, Heidi Allen, Antoinette Sandbach and Phillip Lee rebelled.

      Four Labour MPs backed the government and six other Labour MPs abstained, as did Kelvin Hopkins, who sits as an independent after having the whip withdrawn.

    35. Arbroath1320 says:

      Looking at that Sion either Dominic Grieve, the initiator of amendment B they were actually voting on either voted AGAINST his own amendment or abstained. What a shower of useless twats they all are!

      Looking at the number of total Labour MP’s there appears to have been 12 Labour MP’s who abstained. The vote would still have been lost but it would have sent shock waves heading Feartie’s way I’m sure.

    36. PhilM says:

      O/T Just about buy a flag on Amazon for Saturday’s march when I noticed the following at the top of the page:

      Best selling!
      England flag £1.81

      Top rated!
      Scottish Lion Rampant flag £2.99

      Lowest price…
      Great Britain flag £1.17

      £1.17!!! Cheap but not at all cheerful.
      I’d rather be sick eating 117 white mice or lose my teeth chewing on a 117 penny chews. I mean…what is this unwanted flag of ghouls made of…the floor detritus from Trump’s yearly visit to the barbers?

    37. Maolbeatha says:

      Odd that one group of individuals convince themselves of their superior nature by self aggrandizing themselves to such a degree they believe they are capable of anything.
      Another group are persuaded of their worthlessness via the same source.

      Odd thing conditioning.

    38. twathater says:

      Arbroath 1320 @ 4.52pm

      OMG can the Jerm not get anything right , lots of Scots and Welsh correcting the UK country myth to no avail , they need Rob Peffers to show them the truth , second thoughts Robert don’t bother they’re to far gone

    39. Robert Peffers says:

      ” … Sir Alex you are JUST a JOCK same as Sir BILLY it will never change you will never achieve english status … “

      Why would anyone be surprised? In 1694, before the Treaty of Union, the London Scot, William Patterson, set up the private subscription scheme to bail out the English monarchy/parliament as they were going broke because of fighting wars due to, “The English Navigation Acts”:-

      These acts,(there were several), were also applied to Scotland. William Patterson was secretly employed by Sir Robert Harley, the English spy master as was his friend and colleague Daniel Defoe.

      Then in 1706/7 London Scot, William Paterson was in Edinburgh setting up the disastrous, “Darien Expedition”:-

      That bankrupted the wealthy landowning Scottish parliamentarians in order to bribe, blackmail and threated the Scottish Parliamentarians into signing, “The Treaty of Union”, that got us into this benighted United Kingdom.

      These parliamentarians were what Robert Burns called, “Siccna paircel o rogues in ae nation”.

      By 1706/7 both Paterson and Defoe were in Edinburgh working hard to force through the signing of the Treaty of Union. Letters from Defoe reporting back to Sir Robert Harley are still held in the English archives to prove these claims are true – but you will not have been taught that in your Scottish schools as true history.

      These London, or at least London orientated Scots have always been the bane of Scotland. We cannot blame the Westminster Establishment alone for Scotland’s misfortune for these would be Englishmen/women have always been acting against Scotland’s best interests.

      We will never be free of them but, by reclaiming our independence we can then pass laws that would make such actions against Scotland illegal and enforceable under international law.

      There will always be Fergies, Connollys and Davidsons around who would sell their grannies into prostitution to curry favours from the Westminster Establishment. The solution to ending such intransigence rests in the hands of the legally sovereign peoples of Scotland. All it needs is a wee cross by each of us on a wee bit of paper.

    40. Andy Anderson says:

      Brexit!! reading the latest info about it from the EU, the better papers and some internet blogs they seem to think that we are in for a hard Brexit or a complete crash. The EU has already started planning for the latter scenario. May is in for a tough time at the EU meeting in a few days time.

      Businesses that trade with the EU are suffering already as contracts have started to go elsewhere. Banks, car manufacturers etc have started to move.

      All this sad as it is will help the indy cause as the crap bites. Whether this is early next year or a year later it is inevitable. Today in parliament they are attempting to allow the Parliament to cancel Brexit if early next year the crash option is a likely event. May is asking Labour Brexiteers to help beat that motion. Corbyn says abstain.

      As for the sentiments of our English friends south of the border who cares. If they help us great.

      On to Stirling!!!

    41. Welsh Sion says:

      PhilM @ 5:25pm

      Just remind them that Great Britain is solely a geographical concept and that it has no flag …

    42. Bill Hume says:

      Andy Anderson @ 5:49pm….

      “Corbyn says abstain. ”

      Says it all, really.

    43. Legerwood says:

      Arbroath1320 says:
      20 June, 2018 at 1:31 pm

      “”Whilst I’m O/T I’m hearing AUOB are having some problems with the TORY council of Bannockburn over this Saturday’s march, which I’m hearing is anticipating over 6 figures in attendance numbers.””

      Bannockburn does not have a Tory Council. It has a Community Council which, like all Community Councils, is apolitical.

      Negotiations about the route are with Stirling Council which is an SNP-Labour coalition.

      From what I have seen of the route it is not particularly ‘up hill and down dale’ as some are suggesting.

    44. Ken500 says:

      May + the Tories Nearly defeated. Labour/unionists voted with the Tories or abstained. Some do not want to defeat the Tories. Close. 6 Tories? voted against her.

    45. Brian McHugh says:

      English Tories see the Union as England.

    46. Naked Pedro says:

      Hahaha, you really couldn’t make it up!!
      The sad, blinkered BritNats in Scotland and NI are so deluded, they really do believe that they are better off and cherished within a united UK!

    47. cearc says:

      Welsh Sion, 2.01,

      ‘It makes you wonder what they put in their tea…’

      I was told by a genuine ex battle of britain pilot that it was dexedrine. Not necessarily in the tea but bowlfuls were on the tables in the mess along with the sugar bowls. They took a few, had some tea, put a handful in their pocket and set off for the next flight.

    48. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: AUOB Bannockburn.

      Over the past month, I have seen three different procession routes. It now looks like AUOB are in negotiation with Police Scotland regarding the route and PS will take their (PS’s) recommendations to Stirling Council.

      Onnyhoo, hope to see Wingers congregating at the WOS stall at Bannockburn. That goes for you as well, Ian Brotherhood…

    49. Shinty says:

      Too much shite on here regarding the AUOB march/rally on Saturday – FOLKS, please get your facts right before posting – and don’t post some random shite you found on FB until you’ve checked the facts. (Just like the Rev. and others have taught us)

      BDT – I’m not referring to you here btw, just the previous rubbish about 4 miles – when it’s half that. Now it’s apparently all uphill, but ofcourse it’s not. Anything to prevent this being a successful and well attended march.

    50. mike cassidy says:

      Cearc 7.22

      It wasn’t called ‘blitzkrieg’ for nothing.

    51. mjack says:

      So basically we need to keep winding them up till they actually ask us to leave?

    52. Effijy says:

      A few hundred more unnecessary deaths in Tory NHS England:

      Can you just imagine if this happened in Scotland, but Shhhhhhh!

      They want you to have thousands of deaths by neglect too, well until they can fully privatise it.

    53. Clapper57 says:

      Someone show Douglas Ross this poll….oh and remind him he is Scottish and represents a Scottish constituency….Douglas Ross referred to Scotland as “Them” when questioning Guy Verhofstadt about Scotland getting into the EU.

      When Red card Ross sees poll he’ll be like yes chaps WE are going to sacrifice THEM for Brexit what…..will soon be singing this to his adopted fellow countrymen………….

      Oh, oobee doo
      I wanna be like you
      I wanna walk like you, talk like you, too
      You’ll see it’s true someone like me
      Can learn to be like someone like you

      He would probably sing it more King Billy style as opposed to King Louie.

      Douglas Ross the embodiment of a Monkey ….or in this case Orangutan ….in a blue rosette.

    54. Macart says:

      They don’t really understand unity or union. A shared sense of entitlement yes. I suppose they also share a sense of who they consider ‘lesser than’, but unity? Not so much.

      The political union is simply legalized assimilation, expansion and theft. A means to an end for an establishment that doesn’t care about flegs or loyalty. An establishment that created both Scottish and NI unionists to suit their own ends. To divide the unity of a perceived threat. That establishment can and will throw them under a bus to suit those same aims of self interest.

      Even in the teeth of this fairly damning Ashcroft poll and the result from commons, these same folk would sell their own to preserve an elite and an order that’s literally sold their futures before their very eyes.

      The establishment should take a bow for a job well done.

    55. Glamaig says:

      Robert Louis says:
      20 June, 2018 at 8:35 pm

      The march at Bannockburn on Saturday.

      That says start at Broad Street. The map I saw yesterday said start at Kings Park.

      Anyone know which it is?

    56. Bill McLean says:

      Would someone clarify and confirm the route for the march to Bannockburn on Saturday? The one linked to by Robert Louis at 8.35 PM is not the one previously posted. This latest starts at Broad Street where as earlier routes started at King’s Park!

    57. Meg merrilees says:

      Arbroath 1320

      Just a slight correction to your AUOB post

      Bannockburn does not have a Tory council it is strongly SNP.

      Stirling Council has 23 elected members across 7 multi-member wards. Currently the Council is made up of 9 SNP councillors, 8 Conservative councillors, 4 Labour councillors, 1 Independent and one Scottish Green. The administration is a SNP-Labour partnership, with the SNP’s Scott Farmer as Council Leader.

      So I guess it’s a bit of a struggle to get things voted through sometimes.

      It is perfectly possible to change the route and I’m actually ashamed of the route they have chosen for us – all on back streets.
      Coxethill Road, in the middle of the march is a very steep hill. It would actually be simpler if they just let us use the main road as the OO does.

    58. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Naked Pedro

      Welcome to Wings.

      Dude put some strides on I mean seriously!

    59. louis.b.argyll says:

      Going through the, gulp, new members survey with the Scottish National Party, looks like they’re asking the right questions..

      That’s right, I’ve joined at last.

      Thought I’d jump on board one of the latter bandwagons.

      Several family have been members for years- so kinda left them to it, for a couple of generations, knowing my tuppenceworth was worth just that but taken at face value, part of the discourse.

      Feels good, recommend it.

    60. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      We’ll post a 5ft x 3ft Saltire (with sleeve and eyelets)to anybody in the UK for £3.50.

      Cheques (made out to “YES Cowal”) to The Forward Shop, 186 Argyll Street, Dunoon, PA23 7HA

    61. Bill McLean says:

      I really wish AUOB would have a look at their homepage and their forthcoming events for 2017. I repeat 2017. Will someone sort out this route for Saturday and if it’s still under negotiation with the police or council at least let us know!!!!!!!!!

    62. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye, Aye it appears that’s another domino officially down folks:

      “Withdrawal Bill passed by the Lords so will now become law in current form. That includes controversial elements on devolution which has led to row between @scotgov and UK government”

    63. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      As I typed above…

      AUOB is negotiating with Police Scotland re the route of the procession.

      IE, they are bypassing any council input. Police Scotland will put their recommendations to the council. Its a “wait and see” situation.

    64. Meg merrilees says:


      re ‘All this shite’ which we are supposedly deliberately posting to prevent people from attending the March on Saturday

      Perhaps now you’ll understand that there are different printed versions of the route for Saturday being circulated.
      The flyer that was given out at the Glasgow march has the Stirling march starting up near the Castle and that has an extremely steep, cobbled downhill section at the beginning, and a steep hill upwards in the middle plus it works out as nearly 4 miles.

      The route published in The National today, begins at the King’s Park, measures 2.2 miles and is mostly on the level except for the steep uphill section, but there are concerns from AUOB ” we were trying to avoid the areas they want us to go through because we anticipate a significant counter-demonstration or two. We did request a change of route because public safety is being breached by placing the movement in the back streets of Stirling” ..
      The police are trying to work out a compromise route.

      No- one is trying to put anyone off attending, we’re just trying to give out advice and of course, people can join and leave as and when they want, or as and when they can cope with the demands of the march. In fact here have even been posts helping folk to know where toilets, food, refreshments and cash machines can be accessed, local bus routes and bus-stops.

      We just have to wait for a little bit longer and the finalised route will be updated online by the National.

    65. Sarah says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill: I’d like one for the Inverness march, please, and will post a cheque tomorrow. My Yes saltire is very frayed now.

    66. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      As long as I know where to post it to, Sarah.

    67. Terence callachan says:

      Part of the problem is that there is a misconception that English people only make up 8% of the Scottish population but it is in fact 18%
      Nearly a fifth

      I would think that the percentage of English people in Northern Ireland is much smaller

      The fact is that it is crazy and undemocratic to allow England ,English people or its parliament Westminster to decide if Northern Ireland leaves EU or joins Eire and it is likewise crazy and undemocratic to allow England ,English people or its parliament to decide if Scotland leaves EU or leaves UK
      Northern Irish votes for northern Irish questions is essential
      Scottish votes for Scottish questions is essential

    68. Sarah says:

      @Dave M H – I’ll include my address with the cheque. I just thought I’d give notice of my order in case you sold out!
      Many thanks.

    69. Bill McLean says:

      Brian Doonthetoon – thanks for that bit of clarity!

    70. Tinto Chiel says:

      In 2011 , 8.68% of people living in Scotland were born in England, as far as I can see. I can’t imagine this has increased by 10% in seven years.

      Thepnr has told you all this before Terence Callaghan, yet you persist.

      Why is this?

    71. Habib Steele says:

      I’ve just watched the Ghandi film starring Ben Kinglsy. Then I watched a couple of hourse of a 5 hour long biography of Ghandi porduced by the Indiian government. Peaceful non-cooperation was Ghandi’s strategy. How can the Scottish government and Parliament, and farmers, fisherfolk, producers of food and drink, the SNHS, etc. engage in non-coperation with the English government of the UK? We need someone to lead our nation in non-cooperation. Will the SNPO Government do it? Would the Scottish Parliament’s Unionists support it?

      How can we inform and engage the support in non-cooperation of the people who don’t have internet, and depend on the MSM to keep them ignorant? We must gain their support!

      I recently read an article about how some South America countries responded to American tariffs a few years ago. I can no longer find the article. It told of how those countries did not respond by retaliatory tarriffs; they threatened to undermine USA drug manufacturers’ patents by producing their own versions of the drugs. In the face that threat the USA backed down.

      The point is that, in the case of Scotland versus the English Government, it may be better not to retaliate directly, but to hit back at some area which they consider important and which will force them to back down. I don’t know enough to have any idea of in what area to retaliate; perhaps some of your readers will have some ideas.

    72. joannie says:

      The founder of NI unionism died a disappointed man. Here he explains why …

      “I believed all this. I thought of the last thirty years, during which I was fighting with others whose friendship and comradeship I hope I will lose from tonight, because I do not value any friendship that is not founded upon confidence and trust. I was in earnest. What a fool I was. I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into power. And of all the men in my experience that I think are the most loathsome it is those who will sell their friends for the purpose of conciliating their enemies, and, perhaps, still worse, the men who climb up a ladder into power of which even I may have been part of a humble rung, and then, when they have got into power, kick the ladder away without any concern for the pain, or injury, or mischief, or damage that they do to those who have helped them to gain power.” – Edward Carson.

      He’d sought to keep NI at the heart of the British Empire, only to find that the Tories only ever played the Orange card to get themselves into power. As soon as Carson and his colleagues had outlived their usefulness they were sidelined and NI was treated like a second class dominion, less important even than the Irish Free State.

      This is the fate of any Scottish or NI unionist who trusts the Tories. They will always backstab their supposed allies when it suits them.

    73. Clapper57 says:

      @joannie @ 10.03pm

      Joannie… on and well said. NEVER trust a Tory.

      Have a good evening…what’s left of it lol.

    74. joannie says:

      Thanks Clapper57, and you have a good evening too!

    75. Hamish100 says:

      Look like the weather is dry for Saturdays march.??

    76. Thepnr says:

      @Terence callachan

      Part of the problem is YOU Terence callachan deliberating spreading disinformation. You are a LIAR and have been given evidence of the facts from the most recent census here on Wings on numerous occasions.

      Wings is a website dedicated to debunking lies spread by the media we do not need posters like you doing the very same thing btl.

      For everybody else here is a link to the official number of English born people living in Scotland at the time of the last census which was 8.9% and definitely NOT 18%.

      The above link will eventually time out I have found, you can though just find it again by choosing the options from the four buttons.

    77. Jason Smoothpiece says:


      Welcome to the team sir thank you for coming on board.

      Every new member sends out a message.

    78. Ken500 says:

      Percentage of people from the rest of the UK. 9%. Less : –

      Non voters 30%? Non eligible children under 16/18. People whom are sick or in hospital or the elderly who can’t manage to get out and vote. SNP/Independence voters.

      9% – 1/3 non voters = 6%. 1/4 (25%) SNP/Independence voters. = 4.5 % 1/3 illegible children etc. = 3%.

      3% less ill people in hospital etc. 1/3= 2%

      Ie 2% of voters from the south are unionists voters.

    79. Sinky says:

      Another great front page in The National tomorrow. Strange that neither story EU support Indy Scotland smooth entry or Crown Estates scandal features on BBC TV or STV news coverage.

    80. Simon Curran says:

      @Terence callachan
      Don’t assume about ‘English’ voters. Three of us used to play football together, none of us born in Scotland, all had Scots parents, none of us considered ourselves English but we might be by your definition.

    81. Hamish100 says:

      Is someone called Terence Callachan allowed to vote? Sounds a bit Irish to me.

      I wish some of the disturbed posters recognise the fact that if you live here you can vote subject to certain residency conditions as before. Folk choosing to live here are welcome.

    82. Ken500 says:

      Stirling centre is not that big. Everyone will easily find out where it starts from. Even on the day. Just give a bit of extra time. There possibly will be sign posts etc. It would be easily caught up. It does not move that quickly. Cut through to join in. It will be quite visible by all reports. Huge? Mobbed.

    83. Chick McGregor says:

      The only thing equal in the Union is that they don’t deserve us and we don’t deserve them.

    84. ronnie anderson says:

      AUOB . Stirling/Bannockburn .

      Still no breakthrough with the Stirling Council but the route will be finalised by Friday . I will post it up on Wings/ of Sovereign Scots/Spider Principle /English Scots For Yes

    85. Footsoldier says:

      Misinformation on the Stirling march route? Where does one go for definitive information? Logic would suggest the AUOB website

      Unfortunately it is more than 1 year out of date which suggests to me a lack of co-ordination somewhere. Basically “All Under One Banner but ignore our website”. The website should be taken down or kept up to-date.

      I really do not know which information to believe on the March route, times and starting point. Someone id doing a good job in confusion.

    86. Chick McGregor says:

      OT VAR in the World Cup. Some minor issues but overall I think it is producing the fairest ever World Cup finals.

      Wish we had VAR for Scottish politics, what am I saying? We already do with Wings and WGD. 😀

    87. Ken500 says:

      What’s the Crown estate scandal?

    88. Thepnr says:

      Good for you Ronnie. I know the organisers are doing their best but I can only imagine the opposition to this march from certain quarters.

      The route is unimportant being there if you can is, put it this way once you get to Stirling it will be impossible to miss with the throngs of happy marchers all heading in the right direction and there’s only one direction we’re heading.

      The road to Independence so look out your Saltire and be there.

    89. Sinky says:

      Ken 500
      When Crown Estates foreshore were devolved under latest Scotland Bill 2 years ago UK Gov retained Fort Kinnaird, purely to avoid devolving a key asset so the UK treasury could sell it off and keep the £167 million it was worth to Scotland.

      Now been sold to private London based property speculators.

    90. Chick McGregor says:


      We’re booked on the Kirrie bus but I did my back/hip in with some gardening, hefting bags of groundcover bark and gravel, so not sure yet, despite the wonders of voltarol, if I will be able to make the march or be deposited at the Bannockburn site.

    91. Valerie says:

      Interesting exchange on Scottish Committe who were questioning Guy Verhofstadt.

      What a snidey, nasty arse this Tory is.

    92. Thepnr says:

      @Chick McGregor

      No need to do the March Chick, join Ronnie et al at your leisure and help with the Wings stall. At least you’ll get a cup of tea I would hope while you wait 🙂

      Joking aside, would love to see you there and I’m absolutely certain you’ll be glad you came as there is a special atmosphere when thousands of like minded folk get together.

      Joyful even!

    93. jfngw says:

      Now that the Lords have passed the bill we now have


      MP’s from England have now effectively taken legislative control of all devolved parliaments whilst banning non English based MP’s from any voting on English matters.

      What they have doing is negating the voting rights of the devolved Nations, MP’s from England will determine what laws they consider valid in these Nations. If this is not the definition of vassal states being run on colonial terms then what is.

      This was always the plan, hence the massive increase in Viceroy Mundell’s department.

    94. ronnie anderson says:

      Thepnr quite right just be there you’s won’t miss the march . As I said in my last post the route will be made available on Friday

      Footsoldier Yes the web page needs updated but im in contact with AUOB movers & shakers , there’s nothing new in late notifications of routes it happened in Glasgow & will no doubt happen with other Councils trying to dictate routes numbers ect

    95. Meg merrilees says:


      The National will print an up to date map online as and when it is settled and hopefully on saturday morning too.

      I would think we will know very soon; and that Forth Valley Police will have to provide up to date information.

      See Ronnie Anderson’s post @ 11.04 just before yours.

    96. Still Positive says:

      Will anyone have an update or the best place to park?

    97. Gary says:

      Seems the only ones really behind the union are the politicians??

    98. Still Positive says:

      Me @ 12.28 or should read on.

    99. ronnie anderson says:

      Still Positive I’ll update all the information as I receive it on Friday

    100. Ken500 says:

      They could have defeated May and stopped the chaos 12Sept 2017. If Labour and the opposite had voted against. . Evel vote.

      Why are ten votes unaccounted? Or are the voting accounting reports wrong?

      319 + 303 = 622. (6+ 1 abstained) = 629. 4 tellers (2 to each side) = 633. 7 Sun Fein =

      Total 640. There are 650 seats in the House of Commons. Are they vacant seats (by-election). Or people sick. Or absent.

    101. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ and have an excellent Thursday Wingers.

      Just 2 days now remaining to go.

      We’re a coming for ye.


    102. Cactus says:

      C’est vrai.

    103. Luigi says:

      Ken500 says:

      21 June, 2018 at 6:25 am

      Total 640. There are 650 seats in the House of Commons. Are they vacant seats (by-election). Or people sick. Or absent.

      They didn’t make it out of the bar in time.

    104. Ken500 says:

      In the UK migrants and refugees are treated really badly. Just as bad as in the US or worse. They can be unlawfully detained for years in detention centres. Badly run with extremely poor conditions. Neglected. Or deported illegally. UK citizens who have a lawful right to stay in the UK. Under the cover of Brexit,

      Westminster unionists policies are illegally throwing people out Scotland. Westminster has changed the goal posts of people’s settlement. Changed the rules and the Law. Then illegally throwing people out of Scotland because of Brexit. Scitland voted No to stay in the EU.

      Scotland is half empty. Not densely populated because Westminster unionist policies have illegally depopulated Sccotland. People have had previously had to leave Scotland to get a job and prospects etc. Emigrate. 40 millions diaspora. Westminster centralist economic policies depopulated Scotland and took the equivalent of £Billions and resources, illegally and secretly. out of Scotland. Kept it secret under the Offical Secrets Act. They still do by gross poor mismanagement. They are still illegally throwing people out of Scotland, quite unnecessarily. Damaging the economy. It is disgusting. A total disgrace.

      May imposed these policies while at the Home Office. Acted illegally causing pain, misery, stress and expense to people. Illegally detaining and deporting people out of the UK. Coarse and wicked. Caused havoc at the airports etc by cutting staff and poor management. Then blamed other people. No empathy or sympathy for the chaos the Westminster unionists and criminals have caused worldwide. May and her collegues fiddled the figures. Included foreign students who were not permanent residents. Did not include people from Britain who had gone to settle in Europe or overseas and taken residency/citizenship often for financial reasons.

      Illegal wars have increase migration into Europe caused by UK, US (France). They just want to turn their back on responsibiity and blame other people. Cowards who blame the victims. It is costing £Trilions of extra spending and expense throughout Europe and the world because of their illegal actions.

      It was the Obama administration policies that Trump inherited. Detaining people for processing through the system. They are not detained indefinitely by Law. in some States they are not detained while their claim is processed. In some States they are deported. Depending on States interpretate legislstion of Federal policies. Some border States try to help these people according to public opinion and pressure. Putting pressure on their representativevand officials. They are more humane Some do not. Some people in the US ignore the affects of poor US policy on the world. Ie causing migration.

      Brexit will be a disaster. Another attempt by Westminster ignorant incompetents to ruin the world economy and cause a recession. With disasterous affects and result for the UK, and especially for Scotland. It is just unbelievable what the Tories/unionists are doing this to line their and their cronies pockets, illegal tax evading etc. They are making money out of Brexit. Misusing and abusing public money. Tanking the economy. Beyond belief.

      Every person in Britain has lost £1000 a year already. Prices have gone up and wages have stagnated or not risen with inflation. The Tory/unionist are sanctioning and starving people causing more expense. They have cut welfare benefits causing more money to be spent on other vital services as a result. Costing more. Cut taxes for the wealthiest plus illegal tax evasion. Meaning less money raised. The majority of people have less disposible money to spend because of the rise in the price of basic essentials, goods and food costs. A squeeze on their finances. Causing greater unequal stress for those who are least well off. The old, the sick and the more vulnerable.

      The Scottish SNP Gov and elected representatives are doing well to try and solve this problems in the existential circumstances of Tory unionist incompetence, ignorance and total intransigence. Scotland voted Yes to stay in the EU to benefit the Scottish economy and protect people’s basic rights. Scotland’s wishes are being totally ignored and overruled illegally by Westminster. Trying to take rights and powers away that Scotland needs to run the economy more successfully. In line with EU good governance and respect for others.

    105. Breeks says:

      Everybody should check the route on Friday night or Saturday morning.

      But let’s be relaxed about it … the YES parade might just have to manoeuvre itself into the correct position like disciplined and well ordered schiltrons…

    106. Ken500 says:

      Alcoholics and drug abusers in Westminster make poor decisions. They should be drug and drink tested. Like in the real world. Debarred or take responsibility and go for proper treatment and counselling. At least 10% of them are alcoholic or drug abusers. It is obvious from looking at them. They have a certain pallor, Rambling on half cut. ‘Psycho bastards’. Their own description.

      Many of them should be retired. Not fit for purpose. Especially in the HoL. Unelected despots. A disgraceful situation making decisions over people lives. Most of their behaviour is appalling. They would not get away with it in the real world. They would be disciplined. Greedy and self interested. Pompous and privileged. Unaware and selfish. Self entitled. Getting away with murder. All most of them care about is their own remuneration and an easier life. £2Billion+? cost of administration.

    107. Tinto Chiel says:

      “What a snidey, nasty arse this Tory is.”

      Agreed, Valerie but it’s all they can do, by their fruits shall ye know them, etc.

      Loved the way Douglas’ cunning plan allowed Verhoftadt to emphasise Scotland’s ease of entry into the EU should it be independent.

      Must be turning into my dad ‘cos I could hear myself saying, “Sit up straight and don’t slouch, laddie” when he began his question.

      Ross struggles to hold his wee fleg up the right way as he runs the line.

    108. Capella says:

      This deserves wide circulation – an article by Lisbet Rausing who owns the Corrour estate. Shows how an intelligent and well informed Swedish landowner understands the tragic loss of habitat and people in the Highlands and works to overcome some of the damage.

      A short history of Corrour Estate

      by Lisbet Rausing

    109. Ottomanboi says:

      Clydesdale and Yorkshire banks are acquiring Virgin Money although savers with the latter it seems have heard zilch from them above that.
      However, the new merged set up will carry the now supposedly ‘venerated’ Virgin name, a total rebranding. Clydesdale issues banknotes. These have national images such as King Robert de Brus/the Bruce.
      Will the beardie leer of Sir Branston replace him? He will be getting £15m a year for the use of the Virgin name in the deal so why not.
      For my generation the names Branston and Virgin mean virtually nothing. Up to date, trusted? In whose estimation? Worth 15m a year?
      Of course it’s a cultural de-Scoticisation, again. The Scottish government needs to tidy up the Scottish banking sector. We need a central bank, that’s certain.

    110. Breeks says:

      I wonder which is the more nauseating. A minute long video of Donald Trump or Theresa May.

      I’m hedging towards May, but can’t be absolutely sure since I haven’t been able to stomach a full minute of either yet.

      May’s body language and expression screams that she’s lying through her teeth and just saying what she thinks people want to hear. Trump’s demeanour also oozes with disingenuous smarm, but you can feel curiously disarmed by the brazen, almost sincere way that Trump doesn’t give a shit that he is lying.

      What remarkable times we live in. If we humans were ants in the forest, the other woodland creatures would be looking at us and wondering WTF we were thinking. Sadly we are not ants in the forest, and if woodland creatures stop to look at us they usually end up dead.

    111. Macart says:

      The franchise is residence and the principle of inclusion is both admirable and sound.

      Seems to me that the ONLY nationality that a few folk constantly bring up on a number of sites for exclusion is English. It’s the only one I’ve ever seen mentioned in this context. How about people of Irish origin? French? Australian? American? Ghanaian? Chinese? Thai? Syrian? Especially that last one given St Andrew’s background.

      Just to be clear? We’re all immigrants. All our families come from somewhere else, no matter how far back. DEAL WITH IT. Being a Scot is a state of mind and a way of living. NOT AN ACCIDENT OF BIRTH. This is about how we wish to be governed and how we wish to interact with the global community.

      You want more people originally from England to vote YES? You go out and convince them that by moving to Scotland they have a way out and better chance for themselves and their children. Give them a reason.

      We lost last time out because we were a day late and foot short. This constant bullshit of not enough old people voted for indy, not enough farmers, not enough fishermen, not enough new Scots. We didn’t have the resources of the other team and didn’t convince enough people in time.

      That’s kinda up to us to change that. They’ve seen the other shoe drop in the last four years. A LOT of those people are now approachable and those that still aren’t? You don’t waste resources or time on. You politely move on.

      You win by being in the majority. You don’t win by rigging the majority and creating second class citizens within your own borders. That stores resentment and a really bad day coming further down the road. Ask UK gov how that’s worked out for them as a tactic. World spanning empire to isolated xenophobic island/pariah off the north west coast of the continent in less than a century. Divide and rule is a short-termist and short sighted strategy which leads ultimately to misery and ruin.

      I don’t care where you come from. If you want to be a Scottish citizen and want a government of your own that is well within arse kicking distance? If you want a country that gets the government it votes for rather than a government foisted upon it which the majority of its electorate didn’t vote for? Then you are more than welcome so far as I’m concerned.

    112. Capella says:

      @ Ottomanboi – I read that in Douglas Fraser’s article on the BBC Scotland bit of the website. What I don’t understand is – if CYBG have bought Virgin Money, why do they have to pay Richard Branson to use the name? Why not just keep Clydesdale Bank and save £15 million a year?

      Douglas doesn’t elaborate on this strange case of the tail wagging the dog.

    113. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Ken500bot: “Scotland is half empty.”

      >start response
      Norway’s even worse. They have the same population as us, but with nearly five times the amount of land. How on earth do they manage? Must be some sort of black magic.
      >end response

    114. Liam says:

      Ken500 says:

      21 June, 2018 at 6:25 am

      Total 640. There are 650 seats in the House of Commons. Are they vacant seats (by-election). Or people sick. Or absent.

      mostly Sinn Féin.

      They have 7 seats and refuse to attend parliament or vote on bills.

    115. Dorothy Devine says:

      I’m with Macart!

    116. Iain mhor says:


      A figure of speech I know, but Scotland’s a lot more than half empty. You could drop 4 times the current population into Scotland easily and it would still be ’empty’ There would be no destroying of the ‘Wilderness’ even at that.

      Wilderness: An uncultivated, uninhabited, and inhospitable region – synonyms : wilds, wastes, uninhabited region, inhospitable region, uncultivated region, badlands –
      a neglected or abandoned area.

      Yup, pretty much.

    117. robertknight says:


      Your second last paragraph is exactly what the those who voted No in 2014 voted for. Over 2 million voted to delegate responsibility for making the major decisions affecting Scotland to those MPs elected by English voters.

      This isn’t a situation sprung on the unwitting people of Scotland, but one that 55% wanted, and until and unless the 55% wake up to the fact that there is an alternative, then the situation will not change.

      Even then, should the balance of public opinion tip in favour of Yes, the UK Govt. in the current climate is not remotely likely to ever grant another Section 30 Order to conduct a referendum. If the Scottish Govt. ever tried to hold one without obtaining the authority to do so from Westminster, it’d be bogged down in the courts for years or a Catalonia scenario would play out – power devolved is power retained.

      The only option left would be for the SNP to stand for election to Holyrood on the simple, single manifesto pledge that if a majority of SNP MSPs are returned to Holyrood at the next Scottish election, then a Scottish Grand Committee would be formed and negotiation be entered into with the UK Govt. to repeal the 1707 Acts & Articles of Union.

      No other issue would feature in the SNP election campaign and it in effect becomes a referendum – without the need for Westminster’s say so.

      The SNP would either succeed, or face annihilation, a ‘Nuclear Option’ if you like. Should the latter occur, then perhaps Scotland will deserve what it gets and the SNP can shut up shop. Last week showed how innefectual our SNP MPs are in reality – through no fault of their own, the Power Grab marches on.

      Years ago a person of some international standing, I believe they were from a newly independent commonwealth country in Africa but their name escapes me, was asked about the prospects for Scotland becoming an independent state. There response was to say that they thought it unlikely as the people of Scotland hadn’t suffered enough.

      Perhaps a Hard Brexit will change that.

    118. ronnie anderson says:

      Breeks Schiltrons is it , contrary to what a march should be People displaying Group Banners should hang back from the people in front otherwise people can’t see their banner especially Banners with a written message

    119. Ken500 says:

      Sinn Fein seats were included in the total. Go back. 7 Sinn Fein seats are included in the 640. They also get £Millions in ‘short’ money (Westminster) remuneration and expenses. Recognise the principle of non attendance. They have principles and then there are others.

    120. Breeks says:

      Macart says:
      21 June, 2018 at 8:42 am

      ….We lost last time out because we were a day late and foot short. This constant bullshit of not enough old people voted for indy, not enough farmers, not enough fishermen, not enough new Scots. We didn’t have the resources of the other team and didn’t convince enough people in time…

      Splitting hairs maybe, but I don’t think we lost in 2014, we just didn’t win. Sound delusional I know, but look at it the other way. Unionism “won” but won what? Their perfidious campaign and propaganda carried the vote but settled nothing. Four years later, just four years, and the definitive Constitutional question is galloping towards us again. What kind of victory was that?

      Even now, when polls, if they are to be trusted, put Unionism ahead, why are Unionists so afraid to put the issue to a vote? Why do Unionists fight to prevent a referendum happening rather than fight to win it? They are meant to be ahead. What “remarkable” confidence they have.

      They don’t want another referendum because they know better than we do all the shenanigans that went on behind the scenes, all the buttons that were pressed, deals that were done, and souls that were sold in order to win in 2014. They unarguably won the battle in 2014, but squandered such resource to do it. They lied, and got caught.

      It is us Independentists who are steadily winning the war. They can see our strength beginning to muster and have nothing left to meet it. They are spent, but we don’t relent until we win.

    121. Ottomanboi says:

      It’s the Virgin brand name, it appears it is ‘trusted’, which implies there’s a trust problem with that of Clydesdale and Yorkshire names. The Virgin name is still used on trains and planes even though Branson has nothing to do with the operating companies. Pocket money for venerable old gent? May enable him to finally get into space.

    122. Robert Kerr says:


      My understanding of the Battle at Bannockburn was the use of MOBILE shiltrons,

      This was new tactically and a winner.

      Hopefully the mobile shiltrons on Saturday shall be as effective.

      Space is important. Look to the Orangemen with bands separating their groups of followers.

      Hope to be there.

    123. Breeks says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      21 June, 2018 at 9:03 am
      Breeks Schiltrons is it , contrary to what a march should be People displaying Group Banners should hang back from the people in front otherwise people can’t see their banner especially Banners with a written message

      Nah, all I meant Ronnie was YES marchers will go wherever they’re told in good order and high spirits.

      The good order back in 1314 was schiltron formation. The good order in 2018 will be peaceful orderly parade order, all banners and flags on show.

    124. Ken500 says:

      A Catalonia situation is not likely to develop. If people keep on comparing Scotland and Catalonia/Spain Independence movements, as exactly the same. It could lose Scottish independence votes. Frighten people. People like stability. It has to be considered the differences of the comparison of both movements. Historically, culturally, politically, legally. sovereignty, freedom, rights resources, weather, diet, life style, administration, autonomy, population, wealth federalism, relationships with others, EU membership etc, Freedoms rights or otherwise, self determination. voting rights and exclusion, inequality and or cohesion. Secrecy and lies.

    125. Macart says:


      Fair summation. We didn’t lose the debate to be sure. We just didn’t convince enough people in time.

    126. ronnie anderson says:

      Breeks I would hope they follow the instructions to walk 4 abreast & elongate the march, its like herding cats for stewards , am just waiting on Paddy Mc Ginty bringing his goat along lol.

    127. Andrew Innes says:

      I rather suspect that the bulk of Conservative voters in Scotland aren’t really Conservatives.

      They’re either “Leave” voters, or tactical anti-SNP voters who’ve succumbed to the relentless barrage of Unionist propaganda. Point being: I doubt they feel any particular affinity towards English Conservatives.

      Irish Loyalists on the other hand? Well, I feel kinda sorry for them, to be honest. Do they really not realize how few sh*ts England gives about them?

    128. Dr Jim says:

      Used to be polls were indications as to how opinions were changing now they’re used as manipulative tools for informing and directing opinion and that ceases to give them credibility

      The question who was asked, what was asked, when was it asked, how was it asked, was it online, was it telephone, what was the postcode

      When you start having to analyse polls to that degree to make sure they were unbiased in their approach you must know that the polling system is deeply flawed as with the people who use them to direct a voting outcome because we know they do it

      Ban Polls during elections and maybe we’ll get folk making their own minds up instead of the powers that be directing them how to vote in order to be on the *winning* side

    129. Fred says:

      @ Capella, thanks for the Corrour link, interesting stuff!

      Enjoy the longest day!

    130. Ken500 says:

      The non accounted 10 votes. Is it the LibDem. Did did they abstain again?There is not mention of them. Yet they claimed to support full EU membership.

      What a mess. Chaos. They do not have a clue what they are doing. Just disgraceful.

    131. Abulhaq says:

      The Mother of Parliaments is a haggardly old strumpet. How can we possibly contemplate spending any more years in this insanitary, anglocentric, Unionist cohabitation. We must get Britannia off our backs before we collapse under the dead weight of this political has been and possible international pariah.
      End our colonial thraldom!

    132. Liam says:

      Sorry, You’re right,
      Ken500, I missed Sinn Fein in original post.

      The Speaker? Would he count for one? He is an MP and one of the 650 total – or is he the ‘abstained’?

    133. HandandShrimp says:


      I think the 10 abstentions were Labour (possibly force of habit than intent). Pretty sure 11 Lib Dems voted.

      Talking about Lib Dems, heard one on the radio having some ill defined rant about the SNP post Brexit farming policy. His complaint seemingly that it took one and a half years. Given we still don’t know what Brexit will entail it seemed a strange pointless rant. The NFU spokesperson by comparison was very chipper.

    134. Dr Jim says:

      Aaww! UK not happy because they feel the Irish have *turned* on them and are siding with the evil EU instead of doing what the lovely Brits want

      Because the Irish do have such a lot to thank the Brits for

    135. Ken500 says:

      ‘Half empty’ A figure of speech. For comparison. Depended how full people want to be? Not to be extinguish and debilitated by illegal outside interest of ignorance and imposition. With unequal and unfair representation of intransigence and malice.

      In 1707 Scotland was 1/4 (25%) of the British population. Today it is 1/12. With a different demographic composition by comparison.

    136. Ken500 says:

      The Labour 6 + 1 Independent abstinence as reported has been accounted in. There is no account of the LibDems. There is ten of them? They must have abstained. Yet they claim to support full EU membership. One of them Scottish Rep has actually voted to support Wales. Not for powers that were being taken from Scotland. Wales voted for Brexit. Incomprehensible.

    137. Fireproofjim says:

      March to Bannnockburn
      It’s inspiring and great fun. Forecast sunshine. What more do you want.?
      I just hope that the “Tory scum” banner is lost this time. Be positive. Make friends not enemies.

    138. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says:

      polls … now they’re used as manipulative tools for informing and directing opinion

      Abuse of polls and misunderstanding them is a symptom of a wider problem.

      For democracy to operate you need to develop a politically sophisticated and informed population.

      For democracy to be systematically undermined you to maintain a politically gullible and poorly informed population.

      The UK has a completely unbalanced private media and state broadcaster which is little more than a propaganda machine for the state. I don’t believe we have arrived at this situation by accident, it’s by design. Too many people can’t understand how politics can effect their lives. That suits the establishment just fine,

      Example Brexit. How could Leave win with no vision, no plan, no manifesto? Mass manipulation was used callously. Even people who believed they knew what they were voting for, mostly didn’t.

      The UK practises classic social mushroom farming – keep them in the dark and feed them bullshit.

    139. UK Gov giving £400,000,000 contract to Capita for fire and rescue of UK forces,

      Capita share price has dropped to a tenth of what it was 5 years ago,

      Capita is the next Carillion.

    140. Ken500 says:

      Speaker right. No vote. Total of (seats) Rep 649. 4 tellers (two from each side) no vote but have been included. That leaves 9. LibDems? There is no mention of them.

      Never trust a Tory. Psycho bastards. What a mess. People can’t take more of this. They will not take Much more. They will start revolting. Thatcher all over again. It is so insulting to people’s livelihood and existence. Worrying people and creating anxiety. Depressing. What a disgusting Westminster unionist Gov. Useless.

    141. Abulhaq says:

      Catalan nationalism is historically largely cultural and linguistic, Scottish nationalism is described as ‘civic’. There are some flaws in both. The former tends to have more visceral, ‘cross party’ ideological appeal but can founder on utilitarian matters. The latter lacking an overarching principle can become bogged down in divisive party political arguments over practical ‘bread and butter’ and social issues. We know how Unionists have made hay with those.
      A combination of the two, cultural muscle driving reasoned praxis? There is certainly a place for a greater ‘cultural dimension’ to the Scottish case.

    142. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Dr Jim at 9.50

      With you entirely. There are places in which polls are forbidden in run-ups to elections.
      They are no longer primarily honest indicators but the weapon of whoever commissioned them. It depends on the question ,the method and the chosen contactees. When the polling companies gave themselves the power to “weight” polls they abandoned credibility.

      The polls had Clinton winning, Tmay winning by miles,labour lansdslide at English council elections last yearetc etc etc.
      They did not have us getting 46 seats in 2007, getting an independence majority in the Scottish Parliament in 2012,getting 96 seat out of 99 (I think they had us getting about 75) and so on.

      Our supporters who reference “the polls” in urging caution do us a serious disservice. Most of the time,either by error or design,they underestimate our support.

      Look as though we may be approaching 3 – 4% of the Scottish population as members of the SNP. We have the army.They have the media.

      It is imperative that our army becomes visible. Public large scale identification is a huge tool. Marches do the job to an extent but every supporter should have car stickers, window stickers and flags up in their garden.

      I am actually startled at the moment. Our little SNP branch has 20 new members as of this morning and more coming because others have sent off the forms to HQ.

      Let me copy again James Maxton’s great speech which should be shouted out every time today’s pathetic Scottish Labour party tries to prevaricate or abstain.

      “Give us our parliament in Scotland. We will start with no traditions. We will start with ideals. We will start with purpose, with courage. We will start with the aim and the object that there will be 134 men and women pledged to 134 Scottish constituencies, to spend their whole brain power, their whole courage and their whole soul in making Scotland into a country in which we can take people from all the nations of the earth and say : this is our land, this is our Scotland ,these are our men, our works, our women and children: can you beat it?

    143. galamcennalath says:

      Crush time approaching for TMay.

      ” Ireland’s deputy premier has warned the UK there will be no Brexit withdrawal deal without an agreement on the Irish border. …. Mr Coveney added: “Let’s be very clear – there will be no withdrawal agreement, no transition agreement and no managed Brexit if the UK don’t follow through on their commitments.” “

      He refers of course to the commitment to have NI in customs union and regulatory alignment with the Rep, as signed on to by the UK on December.

      A backstop with no conditions such as timelimiting is needed. The UK side keep saying their magical future trade deal will be so wonderous that the backstop won’t kick in. Everyone else say, “ok, but let’s have the backstop just in case”, while knowing the alternatives are fantasy.

      So, how does TMay guarantee an acceptable backstop AND appease the DUP and other über BritNats? She can’t. Impossible,

      I rather like seasalt popcorn, myself.

    144. Thepnr says:


      All twelve Lib Dems voted against the government, you are right in that the speaker and the four tellers do not vote.

      Another 23 either abstained or were absent, the complete list of all 650 MP’s and how they voted can be seen on this link.

    145. schrodingers cat says:

      re polls

      some polls ask deliberately compromising questions, designed to give a skewed response. stu campbell showed this in his last post concerning english attitudes towards military intervention

      “if you frame military intervention against others as a legitimate and routine foreign-policy option, even the most blinkered person finds it difficult to perform an about-face the very next minute and say the same rules shouldn’t apply to themselves”

      then there is the deliberate misrepresentation of the data. both sides are guilty of this
      30% yes
      30% no
      30% dk

      ergo 60% are against independence, ?

      yes supporters are currently doing the same when they say, we started indyref1 with only 30% support……..

      its bollox. snp won the he in 2011 with 45%, and yes got 45% in indyref1. 2011 was a genuine tipping point where voters did shift en mass to snp/yes.

      voters in scotland are conservitive with a small c, and take time to change their opinions, (die off and replaced with new young voters?)

      dismissing deliberately skewed polls and headlines leaves us with genuine data. different polsters use different techniques, eg, landline telephones, weighting corrections etc and as such they do produce different results. but the differences tend to be minor.

      what we can take from their results is TRENDS eg, their data may show differing numbers of support for yes, but all of them show TRENDS of small increases in support for yes.

      I see trends on social media, nos turning to yes, snp membership increasing, brexiteers marginalised and much less vociferous, personal anecdotes are not genuine polls but the signs of these trends are unmistakable.

      the uk media are not our friends, but the bad brexit news, job losses, incompetent wm government, abstaining labour mps, etc is designed for uk consumption and as such, it isnt hidden from scottish voters.

      so, for now, we wait, probably only a matter of a few weeks now, we keep the scottish constitutional question OFF the table until the brexit deal hits the table like a wet salmon on a mongers block. the £ will tank, the economy will crash and business leaders across the uk will say, WTF! directly into the uk media’s microphone for everyone in scotland to hear.

      then we will ask,
      “should scotland be an independent country”

      i am not clairvoyant or a seer, but when this happens, i am banking on the polls showing a trend towards YES, we only need a swing of 5-10% to make this dream a reality.

      20 years ago, this day was only a fantasy, what better place to see it happen than Stath Mhelin?
      schiltroms at the ready.

      where we get the mailed gloves and pikes is anyones guess 🙂

    146. Thepnr says:

      Chris Deerin looks to be getting closer and closer to making the jump over to the Independence side it seems. This is the most supportive article I’ve ever read from Chris Deerin.

      A big pat on the back from me for it’s honesty.

      As the global far right rises, the SNP is offering an inclusive nationalism

      “You don’t have to want Scottish independence to appreciate today’s SNP as a significant emblem of decency, progressiveness and social conscience. This is all the more important when one looks glumly around the world and even, sadly, to Westminster. Scottish nationalism has grown up, and it has grown up well.”

    147. louis.b.argyll says:

      Jason Smoothpiece says 10:37 pm

      Welcome to the team sir thank you for coming on board.

      Every new member sends out a message.

      Cheers Jason, like I said, feels like relief to join after so long

    148. Jeff says:

      Missed the one in my home town Dumfries so travelling to Stirling on Saturday. Is it King’s Park assemble? One site says that and another says Broad Street?

    149. Meg merrilees says:

      Heard Rees Mogg on the radio this morning stating that the UK is leaving the EU that Bill has been passed in Parliament so we have now left the EU. The Continuity Bill has been passed and that now means any bill passed after this is subsidiary.
      Basically everything is now under the control of the UK.

      Thought the Supreme Court still has to decide on the S.Gov Continuity Bill in July.

      When asked about the deal that had been brokered by the ‘Rebels’ that the Speaker should decide if a Motion should be debated in Parliament, he said that was already the case and that the Remainers are deluding themselves if they think they have still got a way of impeding Brexit.

      Lied to again by TReeza it seems! It can’t end well.

      Worried they might now try to legislate to call any Indy ref 2 illegal. The Union is over and I think it ended the day that Mundell stood up in WM and said ‘Scotland is not a partner’.

      Showdown time very soon for Ireland too.

    150. Meg merrilees says:


      Ronnie Anderson – read up the thread a bit- will post the correct route on this site on friday. Stiull in negotiations with the Police and council for various reasons.

    151. Luigi says:

      Macart says:

      21 June, 2018 at 9:30 am


      Fair summation. We didn’t lose the debate to be sure. We just didn’t convince enough people in time.

      And starting off from such a low base, we came bloody close!

      Next time we start on 45%+

      No wonder the British nationalist media is panicking.

    152. schrodingers cat says:

      And starting off from such a low base, we came bloody close!

      Next time we start on 45%+

      i rest my case

    153. Famous15 says:

      Richard Leonard at FMQ conflating the tragedy of Alzheimers disease with the responsibilities of government .Tragically not eating is a symptom.

    154. Thepnr says:

      Seeing as Nana is on holiday, here’s another link which provides food for thought. Initialy published in the Financial Times and now picked up by RT.

      Is there any threat to renewing Trident implied here?

      ‘Shock waves’ at MoD after PM questions UK’s role as ‘tier-one’ military power

      While not clearly defined, a “tier-one” power is deemed by the MoD to be a nation that maintains an independent nuclear deterrent and a navy, army and air force capable of being deployed anywhere in the world.

    155. BALDEAGLE says:




    156. Macart says:


      Yes. Yes we are. 🙂

    157. alistair x says:

      Bannockburn march, a little info.
      for stallholders, use the Borestone place entrance, saves you humping kit any distance, some parking in the side streets round about.
      Booze and grub,i checked the three places nearest the field, two I found march friendly, THE ANCHOR, pub snacks(they have three microwaves) and THE KING ROBERT HOTEL, huge lounge, easily take 2 hundred people, 2 beergardens, large restaurant and function room, which they will open up if needs.
      hope this helps

    158. Fergus Green says:

      Anytime I see someone posting in block capitals, I make a point of not reading their posts.

      If I had a hammer 🙂

    159. Fred says:

      @ Fireproofjim, “Tory Scum!” to “Tories Come!”

    160. Breeks says:

      galamcennalath says:
      21 June, 2018 at 10:39 am
      Dr Jim says:

      polls … now they’re used as manipulative tools for informing and directing opinion

      Abuse of polls and misunderstanding them is a symptom of a wider problem….

      My pet hate about polls is the presumption that if you’re behind in the polls you might as well go home and stop trying. Being behind in the polls is when you try harder, spend more, say and do more to affect a change in those polls. Isn’t that what politics is fundamentally about? This “wait until we’re winning until we fight” philosophy is just bizarre frankly.

      And another pet hate is this love affair with democracy which seems to mesmerise us. There are two big flies in the democracy ointment… First, our democracy is a complete sham given the extent to which the monopolised Unionist propaganda media is free to manipulate public opinion, and secondly, our Constitutional emancipation from the Union is a question of Sovereignty, not democracy. The Union was not created by democracy, nor does it make any allowances for democracy, and nor does it require democracy to clarify the ambiguous nature of our Sovereignty. We are, or are not sovereign by definition, not Electoral popularity.

      If you like, Sovereignty lies beyond the jurisdiction of democracy, so holding Sovereignty in abeyance until there is a democratic majority to back it, demonstrates a fundamental failure to grasp what sovereignty actually is. A NO vote is as sovereign as a YES vote, so your ballot cannot thereby be the means of determining whether you are, or are not sovereign.

      What determines whether you are, or are not sovereign, is whether the result of your ballot, whether that’s a YES or a NO result, is respected or can be overruled. By all means, let’s win a YES referendum, and then perhaps people might realise why it is Sovereignty, not democracy, that ultimately matters.

    161. Dr Jim says:

      FMQs the journo bit:

      Once again almost totally removed from what actually happened in conversation (apologies)scripted conversation written by Toodle oo the Noo which a new lady journo couldn’t remember so Toodles had to keep feeding her the words, and Grandmaster Davie Clegg of the Daily Record who was almost fair (almost) in his judgements, new for him

      Most importantly though it was the case of Baad SNP but not SNP Mark McDonald that was the issue and likely will be the main issue for the rest of the BBC day

      One last observation Richard Leonards use of personal cases of tragedy that are nothing and no way connected to the Scottish government but as to somehow associate the government as part of is despicable deplorable and downright slimy brown toad scummy politics and I hope I’m not the only one who noticed his behaviour

      When politicians sink to the depths of using these tactics to aggrandise themselves they demean the offices they hold and therefore do not deserve to hold those offices
      We all know any human tragedy is of great sadness to the relatives of that tragedy but when a politician weaponises it in Parliament for a vote or a point over opposition it is the lowest form of the use of position and says much about the user

      So voters is Richard Leonard, a man who has no policy or political argument in order to make a case the kind of man you want to represent you because I’d be lining up with everyone else’s barge pole to shove him well clear of me and out of politics altogether

    162. Cubby says:

      FM questions today. Toodle loo the noo had a journalist clegg from the record and one from the Daily Mail. I am amazed a journalist from the Daily Mail has the nerve to show her face on the telly. A Britnat chat show. These journalists had the nerve to stand there moralising about the ex SNP MSP who got suspended from the Parliament for a month. Both of them lie and deceive on a daily basis. A pair of hypocrites.

      This media rubbishes everybody and everything in Scotland except for, surprisingly enough, the media. No exposes on the telly or in the papers about all the lies and misrepresentation that goes on. Bloody hypocrites the lot of them.

    163. Dr Jim says:

      Using a fact to create a lie:

      The Britnat “journalists” use this one all the time and once again we see that the latest “truth” is that Ruth Davidson is the most popular politician in Scotland, and Yes she is

      But only amongst Tory voters of which there aren’t many you lying Britnat Twonks

      It’s like saying I’m the most popular man in my house, there’s only F…..g me in my house so of course I’m the most F…..g popular

    164. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      What a shame.

    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      The colonised mind is a pathetic state of being. Colonial aphasia helps sustain the imperialist outlook and traditions that help to maintain social inequality and ultimately undermine the well-being of the marginalised.

      Theresa Enright: Postcolonial Melancholia

      Review by Theresa Enright, Arts and Science, McMaster University.

      In an era where ‘multiculturalism’ has come under attack from all ends of the political spectrum, and ‘cosmopolitanism’ is often equated with a bourgeois worldliness, Paul Gilroy offers a rather unorthodox defense of both ideologies. Situating his analysis in a not-so-post-colonial Britain, Gilroy examines various projects of living with alterity, suggesting that the best vision for a world free of racial hierarchies can only be achieved with a candid look at colonial histories. Stressing the continuum of colonial racial logic in contemporary British culture and politics, Gilroy proposes a “remaking of the nation’s relationship with its imperial past”(xii) as a map to a more dignified and peaceful future. He attempts to detonate the violent and oppressive colonial definition of race based on false axioms of human worth, opting instead for an ordinary grassroots solidarity, what he terms ‘conviviality’.

      Fanonian ambivalence: on psychoanalysis and postcolonial critique,%20D_Hook_Fanonian_%20ambivalence_2013_Hook_Fanonian_%20ambivalence_2013.pdf


    166. galamcennalath says:

      A realistically pessimistic appraisal of TMay’s likelihood of avoiding a cliff jump Brexit.

      “Theresa May has to stop avoiding making decisions, or the EU will make them for her …. The UK government’s fundamental choice is thus clear. Either it opts to stay in the whole single market and whole customs union, or it divides its internal market. …. May will almost certainly fall if she attempts either a sea border or soft Brexit, which is why she will strenuously attempt to avoid both. But while she can defer her confrontation with reality, she cannot escape it.”

    167. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      What a damn, damn shame.

      Well, tomorrow’s a new day.

    168. Scottish Steve says:

      I’ve often said that the story of unionism in Scotland and Northern Ireland is a tragic one of unrequited love. Seems this little poll proves that.

    169. Referendum1707 says:

      Always been a bit baffled as to why even people as stupid as oo members/supporters can actually believe that they’re valued citizens of the so-called union. They’re only “valued” in so far as they have potential to act as troublemakers and useful idiots but that’s not the same as them being actually respected in any way.

      When was the last time one of these knuckledragging oafs was invited to a dinner party in Belgravia or at one of the the Rothschild estates? The English ruling class wouldn’t be seen dead touching any of them with a bargepole.

      As for polls I have a feeling that you could have English troops on the streets here and polls would still be showing 47/48% indy support. Whatever happens, continuity bill power grab or whatever it never seems to change, it’s always at the plausibly high 47/48% and I’m not saying that that’s not actually how it is but I am saying that I don’t know and perhaps more to the point I have doubts about whether polls showing clear majority support for indy would ever see the light of day. I don’t have these doubts because I think that support MUST be higher, but more because the major polling organisations are part of the WM establishment fabric and therefore unreliable.

    170. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain mhor says: 21 June, 2018 at 8:57 am@

      ” … There would be no destroying of the ‘Wilderness’ even at that.
      Wilderness: An uncultivated, uninhabited, and inhospitable region.

      Oh! Wise up, Iain. There isn’t an inch of Scotland that isn’t man made.

      The original habitat of what became Scotland was, the virtually impenetrable, “Great Caledonian Forest”. The aboriginal people, (small A), were the Stone Age, “Hunter Gatherers”, who stuck to the coasts as the many remnants of Shell Middens round Scotland’s shoreline proves.

      That was the older percaption and is still, probably wrongly, taught in schools today. An mateur archaeologist discovery at Howick in Northumbria blew the myth of the Hunter Gatherers preceding the first Stone Age farmers right out of the water.

      “The site at Howick was discovered when amateur archaeologists found flint tools eroding from a cliff edge 3km south of Craster on the Northumberland coast. The discovery prompted an investigation by ARS Ltd and the University of Newcastle which took place in the summers of 2000 and 2002.
      The main feature on the site was one of the best-preserved Mesolithic huts so far discovered in Britain. The radiocarbon dates from the hearths inside the hut have shown that it was constructed around 7800 BC (cal.), making Howick the earliest occupation site in Northumberland, and also a key site for our understanding of Stone Age settlement across Britain. In addition to the Mesolithic hut, a cemetery consisting of five Bronze Age cists was found on the site.”

      The site at Howick is a large settlement and subsequent work showed it had been built upon over a considerable time and several layers deep. Thus it had been built upon several times at different times. So consider this, the Ice age saw the ice retreating back towards the Pole and thus Howick would have experienced an ebb and flow of the ice.

      The logical conclusion is that the inhabitants would have followed that ebb & flow over a long period of time. The point is that Stone Age farmers made settlement but Hunter Gatherers lived Mainly from the sea and were wanderers and the Stone Age early farmers were settled to raise crops.

      It was the birth of farming that saw the start of clearing the forest to make way for crops. So without the hand of mankind Scotland would still be covered in dense forest. All evidence points to Scotland’s barren wilderness being due to the, “Clearances”, of the population in the Highland’s and Southern Lowlands.

      The clearance of the population to make way for razing sheep saw the sheep preventing the forest taking back the land and it allowed for greatly increased herds of deer that made sure the Highlands and Southern Uplands became the barren wilderness’ they are today. If you walk through most highland glens you will come across many old stone ruins of former habitations but there is another, lesser known, sign of former human settlement.

      You will find, among the wild heather and clumps of bracken, patches of stinging nettles and these signals where humans have lived. Nettles are a sign of nitrogen rich soil and that comes from the former inhabitants disposal of human waste matter and that’s why it is patchy and not widespread throughout the Highland’s and Southern Uplands.

      So there you go, all that Scottish, “Natural Beauty”, is man made for if it had not been so Scotland would still be a large forest.

      In point of fact the Highlands could be returned to a state where it could naturally support a much larger population on its own natural resources.

    171. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dorothy Devine says: 21 June, 2018 at 8:56 am:

      ” … I’m with Macart!”

      Aye! But the two of you are not alone together – there’s quite a crowd around you.

    172. gus1940 says:

      Interestiung article on BBC WebSite re a proposal for a Pump/Storage Generation system on Loch Ness.

    173. gus1940 says:

      Interesting article on BBC WebSite re a proposal for a Pump/Storage Generation system on Loch Ness.

    174. Sunshine says:

      Dr Jim 1.55pm.
      Haha, you reminded me of the old saying that my mother used to say to me or my brothers when we were getting stoppy “You would cause a row in an empty house!”
      Old Scottish sayings, you just can’t beat them. I had better go and wipe this smile from my face!?

    175. Thepnr says:


      Another very good article from WGD, he’s had a lot of those recently and if anything his writing is getting better and better.

    176. Macart says:


      All the right notes and in the right order. 🙂

    177. Thepnr says:

      Is this a realistic possibility of where Brexit is heading?

      Brexit: Government eyes Ukraine-style association agreement with EU

      The idea of an association agreement was first proposed in talks by Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s Brexit coordinator. The Belgian liberal MEP, who visited Westminster for discussions this week, says the “flexible” system would help avoid creating “a nightmarish web of agreements made up of over a hundred bi-lateral treaties” as currently exists between the EU and Switzerland.

      Might be a possible face saver that could be fudged as a good deal if they can also sort out the issue of the NI border.

    178. Thepnr says:

      Link to the article.

    179. louis.b.argyll says:

      The Tories and their MANAGEMENT STOOGES on UK HEALTH TRUST BOARDS, flew over the cuckoos nest themselves this time.

    180. galamcennalath says:

      Thepnr says:

      Is this a realistic possibility of where Brexit is heading?

      Brexit: Government eyes Ukraine-style association agreement with EU

      Might be a possible face saver that could be fudged as a good deal if they can also sort out the issue of the NI border.–European_Union_Association_Agreement#Provisions

      Looks like “fudged” would have to be the key element here.

      I doesn’t look ‘soft enough’ to solve the NI situation. However, if TMay accepted the type of backstop the EU want, then perhaps a lot of fudging over the transition period might align the whole UK sufficiently to resolve NI.

      But that may be the issue. The Ukraine deal appears to work on the assumption, intention even, that they will move ever closer to the EU, while Brexit is all about gradually moving away from the EU on regulations etc..

      TMay has to shift position and soon. Fudging and propaganda from the ever-loyal media may allow it. However, is the über right English Nationalist element ready to accept moderation and compromise?

    181. Thepnr says:


      Good point on the fact that the agreement between Ukraine and the EU is about a gradual coming together whereas Brexit is the opposite. Funny though that Guy Verhofstadt should suggest such an approach.

      @ronnie anderson

      I wish The National wouldn’t use headlines that sound as if they could have come straight from the Daily Express.

    182. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Nobody else on here have the curiousity to find out that Chris Deerin is the new director of the neoliberal/libertarian thinktank Reform Scotland, to which The National gave uncritical exposure only a couple of days ago? An ex-partner of ‘communication consultants’ Charlotte Street Partners who only exist to serve the richest? Lo-and-behold here he is (no, I don’t know why that would matter to anyone) to cheer us up by saying that he’s warming to independence.

      If you found Deerin’s alternative reality a little hard to swallow, where the ever-increasing majority of Scots opposed to more immigration are magically transformed into a tiny minority of fruitloops to be ignored, and would like to learn a little more about the type of people (apart from Sturgeon) who wrap themselves in the cloak of righteousness to guilt-trip you for not wanting Scotland to become a multicultural cesspit, then read this, written a couple of weeks ago:

      Macart and Thepnr, grow some balls and stop baiting me into doing this. It makes me want to vomit.

    183. louis.b.argyll says:

      It must be cheaper to dope your residents than it is to increase staffing and training levels.

      Who put capitalists in charge of everything? Thatcher.

    184. Dan Huil says:

      Juncker told the Irish parliament on Thursday he was stepping up preparations for a breakdown in talks, and even drafting plans aimed at keeping the peace in the north of Ireland.

      I still think it’s going to be a No Deal.

    185. galamcennalath says:

      Thepnr says:

      Funny though that Guy Verhofstadt should suggest such an approach.

      Perhaps he’s offering a life line – putting something new on the table which can be spun as ‘good’.

      TMay has to shift from her current position too, though. Time limited backstops and magical customs agreements won’t solve NI, and therefore won’t even make the negotiating table.

    186. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      The Journal of a Tour to the Hebrides, with Samuel Johnson, LL.D. by James Boswell

      October 1773

      “We talked of a violent contest which was then carrying on, with a view to the next general election for Ayrshire; where one of the candidates, in order to undermine the old and established interest, had artfully held himself out as a champion for the independency of the county against aristocratic influence, and had persuaded several gentlemen into a resolution to oppose every candidate who was supported by peers. ‘Foolish fellows! (said Dr. Johnson,) don’t they see that they are as much dependent upon the peers one way as the other? The peers have but to oppose a candidate to ensure him success. It is said, the only way to make a pig go forward, is to pull him back by the tail. These people must be treated like pigs.'”

    187. Stravaiger says:

      Quoting Johnson merely makes our point for us. You are blind to it, thinking it makes your point instead.

      You don’t get it. You’ll never get it. That’s basically the problem.

    188. Fred says:

      Johnson had Jacobite sympathies in the past, he set off to meet the army at Derby but fortunately for him, got lost. He had a pension from George II so watched his step. Boswell’s father Auchinleck was a Whig, didn’t approve of Johnson & thought he was a bad influence on his son.

    189. louis.b.argyll says:

      As for Boswell & Johnson, you’d get a more genuine sentiment of the nation from Skinner and Baddiel.

    190. Dorothy Devine says:

      Mr Peffers, and thank goodness for that marvellous crowd!

      Hope you are feeling fine – or as fine as possible.

    191. Dr Jim says:

      All the Twitter trolls are screaming about the FM for NOT making a legal ban on fracking that would have been challenged legally in court (AS IT WAS) and would have resulted in a defeat for the SG, so instead of agreeing the SG using the planning powers effectively banning fracking was a brilliant plan by the SG, they somehow seem happy that fracking is NOT going ahead but wish it was so they could have complained about her not being smart enough to use the planning powers

      If you have a political argument against Independence and or the SNP that’s one thing but when you hate for no other reason than you’re just wrong and can’t stand the idea of being wrong so won’t give in to reason no matter what then what sort of example must you be to any offspring you may have to live a co-operative life with others of differing views and opinions

      Everything that can’t or won’t adapt to change becomes extinct, British Nationalism in all its forms is dying out in Scotland and judging by my Amazon £1.99 Chinese watch doesn’t have long to go

    192. Robert Peffers says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist says: 21 June, 2018 at 7:52 pm:

      “The Journal of a Tour to the Hebrides, with Samuel Johnson, LL.D. by James Boswell
      October 1773.

      You do realise who and what Boswell was, Reluctant Nationalist?

      Boswell was born in Blair’s Land on the east side of Parliament Close behind St Giles’ Cathedral in Edinburgh on 29 October 1740. He was the eldest son of a judge, Alexander Boswell, Lord Auchinleck, and his wife Euphemia Erskine.

      As the eldest son, he was heir to his family’s estate of Auchinleck in Ayrshire. In 1769 he married his cousin Margaret Montgomerie, and in 1782 he became the 9th Laird of Auchinleck.

      He quite obviously was a great hero worshiper of Samuel Johnson and Johnson, (mostly referred to as Dr. Johnson), was an English writer, of English literature. a poet, essayist, moralist, literary critic, biographer, editor and lexicographer. He was a devout Anglican and a generous philanthropist. Politically, he was a committed Tory. The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography describes Johnson as “arguably the most distinguished man of letters in English history”.

      Boswell’s kind are the curse of Scotland and have blighted Scotland since ever there was a Scotland.

    193. Fred says:

      ” I am a Scotchman but cannot help it!” 🙂

    194. Fred says:

      “That is something a great many of your countrymen cannot help!”

    195. Ghillie says:

      Dr Jim @ 9.49 pm Well said.

      Nicola Sturgeon’s and the SNP’s political acumen in the handling of the fracking threat is awesome.

      The lack of knowledge and understanding demonstrated by the ‘opposition’ is not.

    196. stewartb says:

      Re- James Boswell. This from The Telegraph written by Charles Moore on 16 May 2011;

      “On this very day, in 1763, a chance encounter took place which changed the face of literature. In Davies’s Bookshop in Russell Street, Covent Garden, the 22-year-old James Boswell was introduced to the 53?year-old Samuel Johnson. Boswell recorded the meeting in his journal.

      Knowing Johnson’s “mortal antipathy” to Scots, he (Boswell) begged Davies not to tell Johnson that he was one, but Davies ignored him and revealed “Bozzy’s” origin; so Boswell said: “Indeed I come from Scotland, but I cannot help it.” To which Johnson replied: “That I find is what a very great many of your countrymen cannot help.”

      The cringe has existed for a very long time – indeed since at least the Union – amongst some our country’s people.

    197. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I see some folk on Facebook noting that they are getting glossy Tory leaflets at the moment.
      Worrying (- or not!)

      I think if Jeremy goes as leader of the Labour party we will have General Election. The establishment wouldn’t like the possibility of Corbyn winning but there are many in the labour Party that they would quite happy to be PM.

      I there is a GE we should fight it on the single issue of independence. It is every bit as legitimate as a referendum if we get a majority of the vote. But we should fight it as an Independence Coalition with some seats given to the likes of Lesley Riddoch,Carolyn Leckie, Paul Kavanagh etc.

      But I think if we announce that we will fight on that basis there will not be a General Election

    198. Phronesis says:

      Scotland has grown up, is well adjusted and will not have symptoms of separation anxiety as it leaves the dysfunctional family of nations that’s needed intensive psychotherapy for some time but is now beyond help. Sometimes a clean break can be therapeutic and healing.

      Trump is not the leader of the free world- who would want to hold his hand?

      ‘The current policy in the United States of separating “extremely young children” from their asylum-seeker or migrant parents along the country’s southern border “always constitutes a child rights violation”, the UN human rights office, OHCHR, said on Tuesday
      Since last October, “several hundred” youngsters – including a 12-month-old infant – have been separated from their families while their parents serve out prison sentences for entering the U.S. illegally, or wait in detention while their asylum claims are processed… the policy had begun in January 2017 when the newly-inaugurated President, Donald Trump, issued two executive orders related to migration’

      Meanwhile in Scotland the rights of children and young people are embedded in its democratic ideals and institutions – no cages or enforced separation of infants and young children from their families. It’s quite a selection, the mark of worthy government and a nation in waiting;

      -Getting It Right For Every Child (GIRFEC) ensures that anyone providing support puts the child or young person and their family at the centre.
      -Improving Maternal and Infant Nutrition Framework (2011)
      -The National Parenting Strategy: Making a positive difference to children and young people through parenting (2012)
      -The Early Years Collaborative coalition of Community Planning Partners
      -The Early Years Framework (2009) is an approach which recognises the right of all young children to high quality relationships, environments and services which offer a
      holistic approach to meeting their needs.
      -National Practice Guidance on Early Learning and Childcare (2014) sets the context for high quality Early Learning and Childcare
      – The Child Poverty Strategy (2014-2017) continues to promote and support good mental and physical health and wellbeing among children and young people

      -Curriculum for Excellence (2012) aims to ensure that all children and young people from 3-18 in Scotland develop the attributes, knowledge and skills they will need to
      flourish in life, learning and work.
      Valuing Young People (2009) focuses on ensuring that all young people have the support they need to achieve their potential;
      -Youth Justice strategy for Scotland (2015-2020) focuses on improving life chances and developing capacity and improvement.
      -The National Youth Work Strategy (2014-2019), developed jointly by the Scottish Government, Education Scotland and YouthLink Scotland.
      -Developing the Young Workforce – Scotland’s Youth Employment Strategy (2014)

    199. call me dave says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Quite a conundrum! 🙂

    200. John Young says:

      Hope the start time of our march in Bannockburn will be changed to 14 mins past 1pm.

    201. Chick McGregor says:

      To paraphrase Samuel Johnson:

      Votes: A con which in England is used to elect Red or Blue Tories but in Scotland has supported the People’s Party.

    202. Still Positive says:

      John Young @ 12.04

      Although AUOB do a wonderful job I wonder if they missed a trick not starting it 16 minutes earlier or if they are planning for those gathered some other way of getting the crowd energised.

      We shall have to wait and see.

    203. Dr Jim says:

      MOD Britnats are making a big fuss about being skinty broke and Grande Britannia not being a Teir one big bomby bullety power anymore and they’ve only just noticed they’re ten years out of date with that idea because you can now take down entire countries with a laptop and that leaves them vulnerable to clever countries who have laptops

      Lots of countries have laptops now, so I bet I know what you’re thinking Britnat punks are you Teir one powerful or Teir two powerful, it won’t matter because I’ve got a laptop and I know how to use it

      Britnats! what a load of dunces

    204. Dr Jim says:

      Some Labour MSPs admit Scotland is being shafted by Westminster but the party still refuse to back Independence for fear of it being the end of Labour in Scotland

      Once again self interest party before people and country

    205. Cactus says:

      Today is now the day before tomorrow.

      UK Unionism bad.

      It ain’t funny.

      X is good.


    206. sinky says:

      Daily Mail that bastion of truth railing against SNP gov and treatment of FOIs.

    207. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Rev Stu, we trust you’re enjoying your holiday, if you’re free tomorrow and in the neighbourhood…

      Come and join us, at Bannockburn 🙂

      Cheers Wings.

    208. Breeks says:

      John Young says:
      22 June, 2018 at 12:04 am
      Hope the start time of our march in Bannockburn will be changed to 14 mins past 1pm….

      I say what you did there 😉

    209. Breeks says:

      I give up. 6 words and I can still make a typo.

      I saw what you did there…

      This English language just isn’t going to catch on.

    210. Dr Jim says:

      Bampot Yoons running out of ideas and accusations now
      apparently Scottish Independence is all about a deal between Alex Salmond and the Pope

      They’re into Monty Python land now and here was me thinking we were being sold to Vladimir Putin for sex slaves
      What’s the Pope going to do with us then, sounds a lot more boring than the Putin thing

      What about being traded to Sweden or Norway, Denmark even at least they’re all better looking than us
      They could swap us for Mexicans, it’s warm there

      Yoonworld a place where they make up even more shit than me

    211. Ottomanboi says:

      @Dr Jim
      That old chestnut about Scottish independence being a ‘Papist plot’ appears to work for some.
      Dan Browne might produce a pot boiler on the intrigues.

    212. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Gove and Mundell at the old BritNat classic of “divide and conquer” yesterday.

      “Michael Gove promises Scottish farmers ‘special treatment’ after Brexit”

      However the Heed’s other favourite newspaper the ‘Neo Facist Voice of the North” isn’t toeing the BritNat Parties line surprisingly:

      “Michael Gove fails farmers over funding review”

      Scotlands Brexit Minister Michael Russell sums it up best:

      “…believing that would take a massive collective “suspension of disbelief “, to quote Coleridge.”

    213. Ottomanboi says:

      The Scotch cringe is a strange thing, those with the worst of it may choose to label themselves ‘proud Scot’. Proud Scot for home consumption, wee courin timrous beistie when on the make in England.

    214. Robert Louis says:

      Seriously, are people in Scotland still coming out with the ‘home rule is Rome rule’ nonsense? Aside from it having been stolen straight out of the DUP bigotry handbook, it only take a second to realise what utter tosh it is. It originally related to the bigotted view that the Government in Ireland was effectively told what to do by the pope. In the sense that if N.Ireland became part of Ireland again, they would be rule by catholics and the pope. It was bigotted, wholly unfounded stupid nonsense then and it is even more bigotted nonsense now.

      Does any sane person think that once Scotland becomes independent, the Pope is going to fly in from Italy and take over as First Minister. I mean seriously anybody suggesting that is just a stupid liar.

      Centuries ago, Popes were like kings in Europe. Nobody even remotely thinks that now. That was centuries ago that last happened. For anybody in the Labour party to say that, they should be ridiculed and pointed out as the utterly stupid bigotted liars they are.

      It is a stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid thing to say. ‘Home rule is Rome rule’….don’t be so f****ng dense.

      And then the Scottish branch office of British Labour wonder why nobody votes for them anymore. Morons.

    215. Ken500 says:

      If people want better governance, equality, fairness and prosperity for Scotland. Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. It is not about nationalism at all. It is about making the place where people live a fairer, better society. Game on. Just get out and vote. Simple.

      Mark McDonald Is not a sexual predator in any way shape or form. He would not knowingly harass anyone. That is complete and utter lies. He has not made anyone ill or hurt anyone intentionally. He is a mild manner congenial person who is a team player and totally works for the good of the community and improving people lives.

      The way he has been portrayed by the media and others who have engaged in a non accountable anonymous malicious campaign, with little right of reply. It is an absolute disgrace. Deplorable. The way he has be pilloried by some ignorant individuals is scandalous. He and his family need all the support they can get In exception struggles in daily life.

      Mark MacDonald is a devoted family man which everyone knows as he goes out and about in the community. The work he has done for autistic and additional needs families and others is absolutely amazing in raising awareness etc. People on the spectrum often do not recognise some constraints of social contacts. They can behaviour in what can be suggested in a mildly deviant way. Without the necessary understanding of tolerance and benefits of inclusion and diversity.

      Many people have the ability of different of the norm talents. A proportion in society which should be publicised for easy understanding. Not people ending up without proper proportionate provision. Or proper, essential diagnosis confirmed for necessary required support.

      Mark MacDonald sent a few misguided and inappropriate mild for offence text or e-mails. This happens a millions times a day. There should be more diversity training in society for more understanding. Lacking in many areas of public life and wider society. That is why a campaign to raise awareness should be supported.

      When the inappropriate content of the text/e-Mail was pointed out he realised it had been taken in the wrong context and apologised and made regret. Millions make mistakes of a text, e-mail content every day. One of the hazard of the internet.

      He made correct apology, realised and admitted his mistake. It is not appropriate to be too familiar, when in a position of public service, with constituents or others. It can be taken in the wrong context, as was intended, and can be used for malicious or other purposes.That has to be seriously taken into consideration. Be made more aware. That is no excuse to pilloried anyone with false accusation and expression. When the advantages of good deeds and intention far outweigh any bad intention. A common mistake.

      To suggest that Mark MacDonald is a sexual predator in any way, shape or form is not only misleading but totally inaccurate. Malicious. It is based on a probable interest in trying to discredit the SNP for other purposes. Or by those of just ignorance. Injustice. That is not an excuse. Most aspects of this matter have been taken totally out of proportion of any offence given or intended. Why did anyone not just text back, ‘Get lost, That is inappropriate’. The message would have been notified without going all around the houses. Or running to the Press anonymously with ill intent. Not natural justice. No right of defence. Mark MacDonald has support in many quarters. Disgusted st events.

      Screen saving a mildly offensive e-mail for future use. When it could have taken as a back handed compliment. Or a misplaced attempt at humour. What motive? To hold on for calculated intended grievance later. Petty and contriving. Who is the victim here? A witch hunt. From people who like to be offended, to be offended, to be offensive. What standards of abbreviation of speech and discussion. Or calculated for affect, Full of pomposity and outrage about a few misguided lines. Full of self importance. Some of the staffers.who know their rights, remuneration and status down to the letter. Less anyone forget it. Get a grip, and get over it. The so arrogant and inherent sense of self importance.

      Malicious bullying MSM ‘reporters’ and others probably shagging everyone in sight, having affairs and cheating on expenses peddling complete and utter lies which are killing people. They could give it a rest and get lost. Stop offending people with their malicious complaint and vicious lies. Arrogant self obsessed minions, low calibre of intent. No ambition, always down to the lowest denomination. Twisted Misinformation and misreporting. They do not care who they offend, insulting people’s. Intelligence, causing annoyance.

      Some nice, mild mannered guy who would not dilberatel offend anyone.Making a mountain out of a molehill. Rotten burghs and holes. A minefield of corruption. Set off the fireworks. Banging the landscape. Like rabbits in a warren. The political warren of Holyrood. Bubbling under the surface ready to reach a climax of climate change, like a volcano.

      The ones giving most offence, telling lies and killing people are the Press and media in collusion with corrupt unionists politicians. No word or report of that. Or it could horror of horrors let that criminal, embezzlers Young in. Young and his cronies have destroyed the City. An appalling mess of corruption and mismanagement. One thing there is complete strength of feeling in the City is the absolute corruption of the unionists mismanagement and misappropriation. Supported by the sychophant lying Press who bear responsibly the situation. They are corrupt as well. Keeping the SNP. the largest Party in the adminstrstion out of power and office. So unionists support by a two job Tory can ruin the City,

    216. Robert Peffers says:

      @stewartb says: 21 June, 2018 at 10:44 pm:

      ” … The cringe has existed for a very long time – indeed since at least the Union – amongst some our country’s people.”

      First of all it existed long before the union, stewartB. It was the London Scot, William Patterson, who was the undercover English agent who engineered the subscription scheme that bailed out the Westminster Establishment that led to the formation of the Bank of England. Then he was in Edinburgh engineering the disastrous Darien Scheme and later was involved in the bribery, coercion and blackmail used to engineer the Treaty of Union.

      As to Boswell, note that while he was trailing along like a subservient poodle hero worshiping the Englander back in Scotland were Scottish Makkars like Sir Walter Scott, (who also pandered to the southern neighbours), Robert Burns, James Hogg, Adam Smith and many other great scots who were leading us into the modern World we know today. Scotland led in all things that were to forge the modern World.

    217. Dr Jim says:

      Holding on to Scotlands powers for 7 years is a big fat giant huge *LIE*
      They can never return these powers because Scotland could change them back again, so it’ll never happen and I’ve said this time and again HOC Parliamentary rules clearly state *One government cannot bind the next* that means every time a new government takes office it can do what it likes irrespective of promises made by the previous administration even if it’s the same political party who wins

      Ask Jacob Rees Mogg if you don’t believe it

      Scotland, you have been warned and told this by Mr Rees Mogg, open the lugs and hear what they’re saying

      Eh and don’t be holding out hope for Corbyn, he’s a populist chancer prepared to say and do anything for a vote
      he’d sell his Mammy for a hammer and sickle badge while he sips pink champagne in his kitchen where you don’t see him do it, he’s no different to Trump or the Tories he just hides it under his old tweed jacket

    218. Ken500 says:

      The Tories took £Millions of CAP money given to (poorer pro rata) Scottish farmers by the EU for equality, The Tory minister gave it to the wealthiest farmers in the south, who were not in such need of support. When protests were made the ignorant, incompetent Tory minister actually quoted the words. ‘Better together’, in the refusal to adjust and overturn the decision. Return the money for the purpose it was given. In order for farmers, in the higher proportional need of support to produce good quality produced food up to the EU ethical standards. To prevent starvation in Europe and the world.

      Scotland as part of the UK (distribution) receives the lowest CAP payment of any EU country. If Scotland was Independent measures could be taken to improve the farming and fishing industry and give support. The Westminster unionists have been mismanaging fishing and farming in Scotland for years since 1928. Blatant mismanagement of the farming and fishing (Oil & Gas) industry. Which hinders growth, Brexit and taking control of powers (under EU protection and directive) away from Holyrood will damage the Scottish main, major industries further. Gross mismanagement from Westminster unionists. Appalling diversive behaviour.

    219. Ken500 says:

      Scotland is secular. The Churches are losing members faster than a sieve loses water. Declining influence. The Churches have privileges above the Law. The equal employment Laws social laws of equality and discrimination etc. Disproportionately supported by public money. Wealthy institutions of private property.

    220. Famous15 says:

      Mark Macdonald is guilty of naivete.He wanted to appear one of the in crowd but did not have the street smarts.A seasoned sexual predator would laugh at him being pumished as a true manipulator would bot have acted so immaturely.

      In other aspects of his life;family life;community life he was exceptionally hard working.

      I have investigated many complaints for a large organisation and those causing real harm are difficult to bring to justice.Macdonald was like a lamb to the slaughter.

      If only his childhood had not been so sheltered and let me quess was his sexual guidance given by a maiden aunt?

    221. Luigi says:

      O/T: Heathrow runway

      If any SNP MPs are reading ths, I hope you are not still intending to support the UK govt. on the vote for a third Heathrow runway. The British Nationalist media will make hay with it. Do a Heathrow runaway. 🙂

      Regardless of the sense or nonsense of a third runway, this is not the time to help them out.

      Withdraw your support right away. And when the media come thundering down with their SNP Bad howls, just calmliy explain why (last weeks WM shenanigans), thereby gaining more air time for the power grab scandal and reinforcing the powerful message made last week.

      This is not the time to ease off the pedal. Keep the pressure on.

    222. Robert Peffers says:

      Just reading a BBC text service report that the Westminster Establishment have spent £2.5 Million on, “Commons Gagging Clauses”.

      These are titled, “NDA’s”, (Non-Disclosure Agreements). and are used for what a House of Commons spokesman describes as, “Used to resolve employment disputes under certain circumstances.”

      However, the truth is that there were 53 departing members of the House of Commons’ Service signing contracts that paid them not to disclose information about the Commons. That information is being used to silence them from disclosing the facts they were leaving the service after being subjected to bullying and/or harassment.

      So, as usual, the elected members are getting away with criminal behaviour and the tax payer is being fined instead of the guilty persons.

    223. Ken500 says:

      Gove and Mundell are incompetent, ignorant Tories. Not fit for purpose. Promoted above their station. Using membership of a political Party to line their pockets. A political Party lying and acting illegally. Embezzling £Billions of public and using it on wasteful, projects of no value or business case. Cutting funding for essential services. Illegally Killing people. Getting away with murder with impunity. They should be put in jail. They are not fit to stand for public office. Just muck up, the world economy.

    224. Thepnr says:


      I totally agree, I have no idea why the SNP supported a 3rd runway at Heathrow anyway and very much doubt that Scotland would benefit from it.

      The could have argued for more flights directly to North America and Asia from Glasgow and Edinburgh rather than having to fly via Heathrow.

      That would benefit the Scottish economy and be more convenient than more congestion at Heathrow where it’s not unusual to circle for half an hour before having a slot to land. Take-off is also more prone to delays while waiting for a “slot”.

    225. Dr Jim says:

      Russian Police are hunting UK football fans who performed Nazi salutes

      I never knew we had a UK football team out in Russia in fact I never knew there was such a thing as a UK football team

      So which football team would that be then?

    226. Welsh Sion says:

      Robert Peffers says:

      22 June, 2018 at 9:34 am


      And then the “Scottish” Daily Mail has the gall to launch a campaign against the secrecy of politicians etc led by a photo of your FM who seems to indicate she is encouraging secrecy. (See the front page of today’s SDM with Nicola Sturgeon’s index finger pressed to her lips.)

      What of the secrecy surrounding the leaving of Paul Dacre as DM boss? Were we ever told why he left? I think not.

      In other news, the Scotsman leads on an alleged SNP underspend of £453 million. In an age of austerity, where every penny counts to condemn underspending is absurd. Nay, even hypocritical. You can all imagine the condemnation handed out to the SG by the Scotsman and its political friends if it OVERspent by £453 million, can’t you?

    227. HandandShrimp says:

      Looks like Alex Gallagher has forgotten to take his Bob Martins (again).

      That is one Alex Jones of a Tweet.

    228. Chick McGregor says:

      I expect Heathrow will lose a lot of Euro-hub tourist traffic to Ireland and Amsterdam after Brexit as well as, of course, business class because of relocating HQs.

    229. Bill Hume says:

      Ah, it all makes sense now.
      Post Brexit….no aircraft at Heathrow…..England left with expensive, useless third runway.

      Scotland becomes independent.

      Prestwick still operational….mmmmm.

    230. Highland Wifie says:

      You are spot on about the problems with supporting another runway at Heathrow. Not only is it unnecessary to create all that congestion in London airspace but it gives Scottish travellers a constant headache in trying to organise long distance flights out of Scotland.

      Living in the Highlands you get used to having to go to Glasgow or Edinburgh to fly but despite there being some direct flights you often have to go via London, Amsterdam, Paris,wherever.

      Thought if I had to go via London I could try Inverness, but having recently been trying to book flights to North America I can confirm that it is impossible to find any flights from Inverness that will connect with transatlantic flights without an overnight stay.
      Just one of the many things that will surely improve when we have full control of the Scottish economy.

    231. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says:

      UK football team

      The veil slips regularly. Underneath a little political correctness, the London Bubble folks still believe in their hearts that ‘Britain’ = England = UK.

      This is just one more example, but it’s everywhere. What was it Corbyn said, “nations and regions of England”?

    232. Phronesis says:

      Scotland has grown up and will not suffer separation anxiety as it leaves the dysfunctional family of nations that’s needed intensive psychotherapy for some time but is now beyond help. No amount of analysis can correct the irreparable harms, a clean break will be healing and restorative.

      In Scotland the rights of children and young people are embedded in its democratic ideals and institutions – no cages or enforced separation of infants and young children from their families. It’s quite a selection, the mark of worthy government and a nation in waiting;

      -Getting It Right For Every Child (GIRFEC) ensures that anyone providing support puts the child or young person and their family at the centre.
      -Improving Maternal and Infant Nutrition Framework (2011)
      -The National Parenting Strategy: Making a positive difference to children andyoung people through parenting (2012)
      -The Early Years Collaborative coalition of Community Planning Partners
      -The Early Years Framework (2009) is an approach which recognises the right of all young children to high quality relationships, environments and services which offer a
      holistic approach to meeting their needs.
      -National Practice Guidance on Early Learning and Childcare (2014) sets the context
      for high quality Early Learning and Childcare

      – The Child Poverty Strategy (2014-2017) continues to promote and support good mental and physical health and wellbeing among children and young people
      -Curriculum for Excellence (2012) aims to ensure that all children and young people from 3-18 in Scotland develop the attributes, knowledge and skills they will need to
      flourish in life, learning and work.
      Valuing Young People (2009) focuses on ensuring that all young people have the support they need to achieve their potential;
      -Youth Justice strategy for Scotland (2015-2020) focuses on advancing the Whole System Approach, improving life chances and developing capacity and improvement.
      -The National Youth Work Strategy (2014-2019) was developed jointly by the Scottish Government, Education Scotland and YouthLink Scotland.
      -Developing the Young Workforce – Scotland’s Youth Employment Strategy (2014)

    233. Andy-B says:

      “Makkars like Sir Walter Scott, (who also pandered to the southern neighbours)”

      Im pretty sure Sir Walter Scott headed up a campaign that fought for Scots to keep their own Scottish pound, he won that campaign. I read that story in the National newspaper.

      I also resd in the National, that Sir Walter Scott rediscovered Scotland’s Honours in 1818, in my opinion he did have his good points as well.

    234. orri says:

      Apparently the overspend is down to more money coming in from taxation than expected. Probably flushes GERS down the toilet if there’s been an endemic underestimation of revenue raised in Scotland. VAT might be a major discrepancy in the past given previously the Treasury would have been happy to accept it all being from wherever the HQ was.

    235. cearc says:


      Expanding Heathrow, one of the foggiest airports in the world, grand idea.

      Which airport would you choose for shipping goods, Heathrow in its fog trap with even more flights to be rescheduled or Prestwick?

      Of course our MPs shouldn’t vote for it though that would be a conflict of interest seeing as we own Prestwick.

    236. Footsoldier says:

      There is still some confusion on the precise details of tomorrow’s Stirling march. I am being asked by others and I cannot say for definite

      Also on Wings no one seems interested in taking up my point which I have recently raised over 3 times.

      There should be one single source of information from which others including Wings, The National can reproduce. Logic suggests the AUOB website should contain precise information which I have repeatedly stated is out of date. The question is why has it not been updated? It gives an extremely bad impression. If it is no longer in use it should be taken down rather than leaving it out of date.

      Many prospective marchers will not read The National, be on Facebook or visit Wings.

    237. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Agreed that SNP MPs should withhold backing of Third runway at Heathrow as part of their withdrawal of cooperation due to Westminster riding roughshod over Devolution.

      Also withhold support for it until Westminster returns:

      The £176 Million stolen from Scotland via the Crown Estate sale off of the Fort Kinnaird site:

      The £160 Million of farm subsidies destined for Scotland from the EU but stolen by Westminster:

      I don’t mind the SNP backing a 3rd runway at Heathrow as long as Scotland gets the appropriate Barnett Consequencials as opposed to hee haw due to Westminster claiming “National Infrastructure Project status”

      That would be worth an estimated £1.4 Billion to Holyrood, think of the infrastructure projects the Scots Government could complete with that kind of money.

      Also leaves Post Brexit London with a massive white elephant if Freedom of Movement ends.

      Just those 3 items equal £1.736 Billion which should be in Derek McKays departments hands

    238. Welsh Sion says:

      Dr Jim says:

      UK football team


      Well, it most certainly wouldn’t be called “United”, would it? 😉 (Unless it’s “The Damned United”).

    239. Macart says:

      Wishing everyone attending Stirling tomorrow a great day out. I’m going to be out of it for a while, but hopefully not too long.

      All the best folks.

    240. galamcennalath says:

      “Holyrood will not give consent to any further Brexit legislation until the “broken” devolution system is fixed, Scotland’s Brexit Minister has said.

      Michael Russell said the Scottish government no longer trusted UK ministers after they pushed through the Brexit bill last week.”

      Reasonable response.

      What will be interesting, will be if Lab and LibDems continue to also refuse consent. A true test of their priorities.

    241. Tatu3 says:

      With regard to the “UK football fans” above, I see in the Sky News article that they also refer to “UK police”.
      Is there a “UK police”?

    242. cearc says:

      Highland Wifie,

      Much more likely to get a good flight from Schipol via Inverness. If you book the two flights entirely separately you can save on the APD as the dutch charge is lower then the english.

    243. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Dr Jim at 2.23
      Not backing independence will kill Labour in Scotland

    244. orri says:

      Yoontic football hooligans could be from NI, Scotland or anywhere else in the UK.

    245. Highland Wifie says:

      Thanks for that cearc. Will look into it.

    246. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Best bit in your archived BritNat Broadcasting article is putting TEMPORARY in inverted commas (we all know what that means @galamcennalath says at 10:51 am

      We all know what that means 😉

      “Westminster effectively wants to keep “temporary” control of 24 of these powers when they return to the UK after Brexit,…”

    247. galamcennalath says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says:


      That will be WM permanent ‘temporary” unlike Scotland’s temporary presence at WM. 😉

    248. Proud Cybernat says:


      Brexit-related job losses in UK (thus far) = 128,433:

      And this is just the tip of the iceberg. We have to cut ourselves loose from this economic disaster being inflicted upon us.

      FFS Scotland – save yourselves!

    249. Ken500 says:

      Consequentials of Heathrow Airport. It is being built with borrowed money. Scotland has to make interest payments on it. The interest payments over time could be much more than £1.4Billion? The Scottish Gov could use the (higher) amount saved from paying interest payments (on the overpriced) wasted white elephant. To improve railways in Scotland lower journey times. Making journeys north and south quicker. To rival air flights times. So more people could take the train a easier journey, comfortable and more pleasant journey. The Scottish gov could have the funds to subsidise any (less) essential fight slot times at Heathrow.

      Heathrow is wasted money white elephant. Congested, connection hub. Too big, time wasting experience. A nightmare. People can miss their flightsc because of the congestion, More could be invested in the railways or ferries.

      Heathrow is being built to benefit London S/E and will add to the congestion, especially at busy times.

      Scotland could improve ferries links, railways and direct flights from Scotland. With the (extra) money saved on interest payments on the money which will be borrowed to fund the expansion of Heathrow. More repayments over time than the benefits of the consequentials of Heathrow expansion?

      What happened to the reduction of APT was that ever resolved?

      With Brexit the will be a decreased in the needs for flights from Heathrow and other hubs. There will be less travel connection because less people will be travelling between Europe/world . There will be no need for expansion of Heathrow.

      Direct flights from China now from Scotland introduced,

    250. Robert Louis says:

      It seems the rationale for the SNP supporting the Tory Government on the extra runway at Heathrow, is they have been told their ‘should’ be more slots for flights to scotland made available. Honestly, I did think the SNP leadership were smarter than this.

      Their were plenty of landing slots at LHR for Scottish flights, but with the demise of BMI, those slots eventually got swallowed up in ‘deals’. Take off and landing slots at LHR are much more precious for long haul traffic, that is why the slots disappeared from Scotland in the first place. The same will happen again. Do the SNP really believe Anybody in Heathrow management worries about the number of slots to Scotland?? Sniff the freaking coffee lads (and lasses).

      Like others above, I also agree that the logic of it is also flawed. Much better for flights direct from Scotland, than having to trudge down to the hell hole called Heathrow, only to get on a plane to fly back over exactly where you came from, on the way to the USA or Scandinavia.

      If anybody gave it even a moments thought, and if this were even remotely close to a UNITED kingdom, then Westminster would say, no, Heathrow and its airspace are already overfull, let’s either expand Gatwick, or build a new super transport hub further North – you know the kind of thing that could join up with the super duper overpriced HS2.

      Their is also another reason they should not vote for Heathrow expansion, which many people are unaware of. When things go wrong at LHR, you know tech problems, strikes or secuirty etc.. and their are delays. In such circumstances, the very first thing BA does, is cease all its ‘regional (that’s scotland, btw) flights, to help them cope etc.. to cater for their Long haul and European flights (as they are more profitable and carry much larger financial liabilities if cancelled/delayed. Seen it happen there many times. Scotland gets dropped first. Always.

      Scotland needs direct flights, not more flights via Heathrow. Why should we need two flights, when one could do.

      The other reason they should not support the government in London, is well, pretty obvious really. London Stealing Scottish assets then selling them, destroying devolution, and stealing Scottish powers, and wholly undermining and ignoring the wishes of the Scottish people, the Scottish Government and the Scottish parliament. Oh, and forcibly removing the people of Scotland from the EU, against their very clearly expressed wishes.

      I will be very disappointed if the SNP do support the Tories on the extra runway. They should be doing ANYTHING to mess up the Tories. Make them suffer. Stop being ‘nice’.

    251. Ken500 says:

      There flights to the US East coast to Boston? from Scotland. That do not involve an overnight stay. Shorter flight time. Via Ireland over Iceland? Takes less time. There are flights from Manchester to US (with connected flight/rail from Scotland) to Florida that do not require an overnight stay,

      Liner/flight can be better convenient, pleasant environmental journey if the time is available.

    252. Ken500 says:

      Scotland pays loan repayments on the money borrowed to fund Heathrow. Might cancel out consequentials funds over time. Might be better to oppose Heathrow and use the money saved from loan repayments to improve transport links in/for Scotland. North/South divide.

    253. Ken500 says:

      Any Gov can negotiate with the airlines or airports pay a premium to gain slots for essential fights. Only a small amount necessary. Cost effective. Especially if there are reasonable relevant alternatives. Other forms of transport. Rail/bus/road.

    254. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Very good point @Ken500

      “Scotland pays loan repayments on the money borrowed to fund Heathrow. Might cancel out consequentials funds over time.”

    255. North chiel says:

      The Heathrow expansion is nothing other than down to pure greed .Ensuring that the international
      traveller “ gravy train” continues to be centralised in London to the detriment of anywhere outwith “ the moneygrabbing metropolis “ . An international looking Scotland should strengthen links with our “ European friends” ie Amsterdam , Frankfurt, Dublin, Paris, and not be compliant in another “London/home counties centralised construction bonanza” almost entirely for the benefit of the Tories and all their construction company cronies & shareholders . ( viz HS2 and Nuclear power station deal).

    256. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 22 June, 2018 at 9:49 am:

      ” … I never knew we had a UK football team out in Russia in fact I never knew there was such a thing as a UK football team
      So which football team would that be then?”

      I may be wrong but isn’t there a UK football team, (of Englanders), at the Olympics, Dr Jim?

    257. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 22 June, 2018 at 10:41 am:

      “There is still some confusion on the precise details of tomorrow’s Stirling march.”

      Aye! Footsoldier. Have you considered that may be because the route is still being decided due to circumstances that AUOB do not control?

      ” … Also on Wings no one seems interested in taking up my point which I have recently raised over 3 times.”

      Ablins yon micht be because you didn’t read Ronnie Anderson’s several comments about those circumstances that are not under AUOB control.

      The original planned route was turned down by the local council due to work on a major bridge and their proposed alternative was considered unsuitable by Police Scotland who were discussing the matter with the local council and thus AUOB could not tell anyone what they, themselves, didn’t know.

      AUOB are not those you need to be overly critical with.

      ” … There should be one single source of information from which others including Wings, The National can reproduce. Logic suggests the AUOB website should contain precise information which I have repeatedly stated is out of date.Many prospective marchers will not read The National, be on Facebook or visit Wings.”

      Just why are you being so critical of AUOB, Footsoldier? When it seems the fault is yours for not reading the updates posted by Ronnie Anderson here on Wings

    258. Luigi says:

      RE: SNP support for Heathrow’s cash runaway:

      Based on promise of more connection to Scotland? Aye right.

      C’mon SNP, surely you are not that naive. You already know WM can’t be trusted. Heathrow’s cash runaway will cost Scotland dearly, and benefits? Aye, right. Don’t be daft. 🙂

    259. gus1940 says:

      I was, to say the least, surprised to hear that The SNP are backing the 3rd runway at Heathrow.

      Surely nobody is naive enough to believe that one of the reasons for it is to provide more flights to Scotland.

      Given the SNP’s intent to cause as much trouble within the rules as possible at WM – let’s start with a volte face on the runway.

    260. gus1940 says:

      Re who is paying for the 3rd. runway I thought that Heathrow had been privatised.

      Surely the runway is not being built with govt. i.e. taxpayers’ money.

    261. Thepnr says:

      Test, just tried a long post no sign of it yet.

    262. Thepnr says:


      It looks like the taxpayer, i.e us will be paying for it, the SNP have already voted previously in support of a 3rd runway I dearly hope they will not do so in this last crucial vote.

      Theresa May is facing a fresh crisis after her international trade minister quit in protest at the proposed expansion of Heathrow days before a crunch vote on the issue…

      The proposed £14bn Heathrow expansion is almost certain to get the backing of the Commons. Conservative MPs have been told there is a three-line whip to vote in favour, while Labour has given its MPs a free vote…

      May joked with reporters at a press conference on Thursday that her foreign secretary would be supporting “global Britain” in a different way.

      “The government is absolutely committed to increasing airport capacity at Heathrow,” she said. “This is important, it is part of our future as global Britain and the ambitions we have as a trading nation for the future…”

      “To use taxpayers’ money to support a private company to become more like a monopoly to grow and stifle competition everywhere else in the country seems nonsensical. To have a strategy that centres on London at the direct expense of connections for the rest of the country also seems wrong,” Greening wrote.

      If the MPs approve the statement, the next stage is a public consultation and judicial review, after which the government can then give planning permission, known as a development consent order.

    263. Highland Wifie says:

      Boston flights good for north east corner of US but involves another flight if going to Washington area. Others all good options depending on where you’re starting and where you’re going. No ideal option for winter trip unfortunately. More options in the summer.

      Inverness to Schiphol flight leaves lunchtime and gets in too late in day for any good transatlantic options. Back to the drawing board!

    264. Gary says:

      Well, it saves them having to get off their arses and actually find ‘news’ stories to report on…

    265. Meg merrilees says:

      Dr Jim. @ 10.18

      bit late for a reply, however, listening to my radio this morning, I discovered that the Windrush people settled in England and that they came here to help rebuild England after the War and that was from the child of a Windrush ‘settler’.

      Later there was an article about a Welsh woman who was a suffragette, who, it seems has been forgotten though she herself publicised Emily Pankhurst and co. in her lifetime because it was all happening in England.

      Seems Fluffy might be right now – we’re just past of the United Kingdom of England and have you noticed recently, the weather forecast at 6pm on the radio talks about North Britain?

      Lots of coverage of Mundell’s visit to the Glasgow School of Art and it is written about three times in the article that the UK government is standing by to help out…

      Propaganda – don’t you just love trying to spot it!

    266. Richard says:

      Can I just ask about these polls please? How many people were selected? How were they selected and how did you ensure that you got a selection from across the whole of England and from across the classes? How did you KNOW that they were English? Or were they just people who reside in England and vote in England? Thanks.

    267. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Can I just ask about these polls please? How many people were selected? How were they selected and how did you ensure that you got a selection from across the whole of England and from across the classes? How did you KNOW that they were English? Or were they just people who reside in England and vote in England? Thanks.”

      We ensure that by using a professional polling company who know what they’re doing.

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