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If you can’t hold on, hold on

Posted on November 24, 2018 by

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    279 to “If you can’t hold on, hold on”

    1. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Jeez do we NEED hope and aspiration, especially at this time.


    2. Morgatron says:

      It is nearly here, i can see it on the horizon . Though Im starting to feel and look like the old git, its just not for me , its for our children. Wonderfully inspirational Chris.

    3. jimnarlene says:

      Nicely done.

    4. uno mas says:

      That´s Robert Peffers at the front L/H/S.

      Is it not?

    5. Big Phil says:

      And everyone has a smile just like when we march,we must be the happiest downtrodden people in history. MON EH HAMISH . 😉

    6. Kangaroo says:

      Crrikey, I just went to performance of Law Miserable last night here in the Shoalhaven. This just reminded me of that performance. An elite, fraternity, liberate viva La France viva l’Ecosse

    7. Clootie says:

      Timing is everything. For the generations to come we must win this time. I cannot understand why anyone would trust Westminster now!

      However the reality remains. It is only our fellow citizens holding us back. What other nation would hesitate to take a different path never mind one with our resources and people.

      This time!

    8. Luigi says:

      Aaah, the last short time before the battle – always the longest.

      Hold! Hold!

      It’s coming.:)

    9. We are all heading in the right direction, convert one folks just convert one, then we will have something to smile about.

    10. Breeks says:

      Something very creepy about May’s pictures when she’s on BBC 5Live… I don’t know if the fish eyed lens and halo effect was contrived, probably not, but take it together with her dancing, increasing stoop and bizarre movement, I’m beginning to think Theresa May might be physically turning in to Gollum… Give the ring to Frodo Theresa.. It’s time to let it go!

      Sigh, Sadly too, Nicola is turning into Treebeard, with a morbid aversion to doing anything too hasty, … although a decision is expected any day now on whether Unionists are Orcs.

      But hope remains, while the company is true….

      Aye… let’s hope the ECJ can come to the rescue.

    11. carjamtic says:

      Nice Chris

      As voters now come face-to-face with the harsh reality of Brexit,false barriers are disappearing/collapsing/crumbling,more and more folk are deciding to do the right thing and who can blame them.


    12. starlaw says:

      Well done Chris … that’s how I feel cant wait for the starting gun but know why we must, the end game has begun.

    13. wull2 says:

      Is the lies finally coming out.
      Is company’s now realising they have also been lied to by the top people
      Is that there last tactic now, get all the Bad/Good news out at the one time while something else is going on.

      Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.

    14. ahundredthidiot says:

      NS needs to exhaust all options and not be drawn out too early. She must be in a position to say – when the question is asked (and it will be) – ‘we tried that, and that, we tried all of that, and it was all in vain’…….then come in heavy with our own Campaign Brexit FEAR!!! – You! – Old Person! – you are going to DIE POOR!! Brexit will empty the Country of resources, talent and money.

      Threaten their future pension payments by refusing to guarantee them under the new British Regime. Only then will people swithering in the middle, who are flipped by the currency question to No, be able to find the courage to vote Yes.

      We live in a country full of self serving cowards and unfortunately we need to win a sizeable majority of them over to Yes. We might not like what we have to do over the coming months. Anyone valuing principle over what needs to be done and how we need to do it can feel free to take a seat at the back.

      It is time to fight dirty. Promise them money. Promise them security. Promise them prosperity in the EU as an Independent Scotland. Smear the British Regime as Liars, incompetents and buffoons. Offer to give with one hand and pummel the british regime with the other, day in and day out until the message gets through. Refuse to engage with the Regime Media and do it the hard way, town by town, village by village.

      Whatever it takes – because Scotland must now be won.

      And it needs to start with a steady hand, ready, but waiting, clear on what lies ahead and having confidence in NS to blow the whistle when the time is right.

    15. dramfineday says:

      Auld gits for indy…… that’s me

    16. Ian Mccubbin says:

      A good omen well done. I read it as soon it will be normal to be part of an independence Scotland movement.
      Dunkeld and Birnam branch out on streets of Dunkeld today our day of action. Might print of the cartoon and staple it to the stall

    17. Dr Jim says:

      The green ink SIU gang are filling up the National’s comment section now with fake concern garbage and pretendy real people

    18. galamcennalath says:

      Very fitting for the day of action.

      Get out today and make ourselves as visible as possible.

    19. Ottomanboi says:
      This sort of identitarian social engineering is becoming an obsession with the SG; London libertarianism in tartan drag. Sturgeon & co have totally lost the independence plot. They seem quite happy to be just ‘devolved’.
      In this particular survey only 49% were Scottish residents. What % of those supported this initiative? Massaging the data? Scotland is actually a socially conservative country. Ask your friends and neighbours Nicola?
      Scotland’s answer to Varadkar isn’t as popular as she once was either.
      Stronger for Scotland?

    20. Thepnr says:

      Something good is always worth waiting for.

    21. ronnie anderson says:

      The Quickening’s just gon ah wee bitty slower /& Patience is ah pain in the erse / Brexit is fluid Week by week Hour by hour / I’ll come when it comes / Teresa’s presidential utterances show desperation .

      Anybudy up fur ah dance Quick quick slow ,or in other words ah Foxtrot ( nae reference tae Britnats wie skitters ) .

      Well put together Chris .

    22. Ian says:

      Scotland tends to celebrate it’s history of innovation. rUK tends to celebrate it’s industrial heritage. The former merges the past, present and future while the latter only looks back. It’s pretty clear which one should do well going forward.

    23. mumsyhugs says:

      @ 9.05

      Totally agree with you. I think sometimes some folks forget NS is FM for all of Scotland regardless of political persuasion or none. At the end she has to have the overwhelming evidence to show that’s she’s explored every possible avenue and surely that’s what she’s been doing. Of course we’re impatient!! But just hold on – we won’t be “Les miserables” for much longer!

    24. X_Sticks says:

      Good shout Chris, there is a light on the horizon. We just need patience and fortitude to get us to the light.

      I see that Broadcasting Scotland’s crowdfunder needs a push. They are at 42% of their target with only two days to go. They have been doing some very good stuff, their Full Scottish is a weekly must see. They’ve had some very interesting debates and guests.

      They have the making of a studio based Scottish TV channel that can provide an alternatice to the britishstate shite we are fed from London.

      Please give then whatever support you can. Every wee donation of subscription will make a difference.

    25. mumsyhugs says:

      Btw Chris – whit happened tae “Wee dugs fur independence”? Our 4-legged friends have walked miles in support of our cause! 🙂

    26. Dr Jim says:

      Independence is for most of us a normal natural thing to do, it allows for freedom of governance, choice of economic and social futures leading to possible prosperities Scotland has never had but, the people who oppose these things for Scotland don’t think that way, the people who oppose Independence don’t actually oppose Independence they oppose us and that’s a different thing

      Just like in Northern Ireland the people who support the DUP will go to any lengths including self harm to oppose anything that could lead to the reunification of Ireland, those people in Scotland who oppose Independence are of the same mindset but in the opposite direction

      Theresa May’s *deal* has nothing to do with prosperity for anybody or closeness to the EU, Theresa May’s deal is all about clinging on to the ownership of Scotland and if Northern Ireland is to be sacrificed at the end of it then so be it because Northern Ireland is worth nothing to a broke UK and moreover an even bigger financial burden than it is now, the DUP know it and I’d bet my house Nicola Sturgeon knows it too and that’s why the delay in calling any Indyref because it’s more than a little likely the next phase in the pursuit of Independence for Scotland will be monstrously harder than the first attempt

      Westminsters powers that be are well aware of how nearly they lost last time and they are not prepared to be caught napping again, Alex Salmond took them by surprise, Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t have that advantage they can see her coming and they’re preparing, and in that preparation if Westminster are happy to ditch a whole province in order to protect their ownership of Scotland that should inform and warn us of how serious they are about keeping hold of their most lucrative financial and strategic asset

      The weaponry deployed to prevent Scotlands democracy is going to be massive and hugely more fierce than last time, Westminster will threaten everybody with everything they have and that includes business, broadcasting, Unions and no doubt a whole host more things I haven’t even thought of

      There will be no free and fair debating, no equal time allocations of TV, no truth whatsoever in every statement they make because they’ve just learned from the Brexit argument people don’t care about the truth, they respond to grand lying gestures much more easily plus they make for better press and TV coverage

      Like Farage did they will employ hatred, sectarianism and scaremongering to the maximum to get themselves over the line and Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP knows it

      So while many are keen to chide the First Minister for being slow or cautious it’s important to remember those people are not standing in the First Ministers wee tartan shoes with the weight and responsibility of the whole country on their back to get this right

      I wouldn’t want to be her would you?

    27. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 24 November, 2018 at 9:36 am:

      Anti-SG,anti-Nicola Sturgeon. anti-SNP, anti-Scottish pish.

      Did your Westminster leadership instruct you to comment here on Wings?

    28. Douglas says:

      We will win but only if we do not become mirror images of what we are struggling against.
      If we fight dirty are not honest then we will probably loose.

      Openness and optimism will win.

      In some ways, I think those who voted NO last time are better and more forgiving people than me.

      They wanted to believe that ‘British fair play’ is real rather than an oxymoron.
      They wanted to believe that Scotland is a valued partner.
      They wanted to believe that the U.K. could change.
      They gave the U.K. one more chance.
      The U.K. could have saved the Union if they had taken note of it’s ‘near death experience’ and mended it’s ways. They didn’t and by returning to ‘business as usual’ they have sealed the fate of the Union.

      There must be no ‘I told you so’ or disparagement.
      We must be welcoming and inclusive (the biggest test of our patience and values will be our attitude to Scots who say NO all the way to the end of Union).

      If Scotland is re-born through dirty means (or worse, violence) that is how Scotland is will be. We must not follow that path.

      The British fear Ghandi far more than Braveheart. They know how to deal with aggression, lies and even violence -it is their stock and trade. They cannot handle openness, forgiveness and inclusivity.

    29. Marie Clark says:

      Ah, great stuff Chris. HOPE, yes I’ve plenty of that. It’s damned hard having to hold at the moment, but, we’re a’ ready when oor wee Nicola fires the gun. We have to win it this time, it’s disnae bear thinking aboot if we don’t. We all want to leave a better country for our children and grandchildren, not the absolutely atrocious future that brexit will bring.

      Auld gits for indy, yes I’m one of them.

    30. Conan the Librarian says:

      Auld gits for independence!

    31. Conan the Librarian says:

      @ Marie Clark

      I’m an auld git!

    32. Marie Clark says:

      @ Conan the Librarian, aye, I suspect that there’s a lot more of us auld gits for indy lurking around. Nice to have some company.

    33. brace yerself agnes !!!

    34. Shinty says:

      Dr.Jim – well said.

      Indyref2 will be no walk in the park. England CANNOT afford to lose Scotland. Perfidious Albion to the core.

    35. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim @ 10.11 am
      Douglas @ 10.14 am

      Excellent both of you. Totally agree

    36. Robert Alexander Harrison says:

      England is going to lose us there own lot are now saying mays breaking up the union with this Brexit deal one way or another England has killed itself we have a chance but we got to do it soon or we go down with them come on Nicola call indyref2 soon.

    37. misteralz says:

      Y’know, I reckon one of the best things we could ever do for our side is finding reams of Better Together’s old propaganda and plastering it everywhere. Remind everyone of what they promised. It hits harder now.

    38. galamcennalath says:

      Douglas says:

      The British fear Ghandi far more than Braveheart. They know how to deal with aggression, lies and even violence -it is their stock and trade. They cannot handle openness, forgiveness and inclusivity.

      Totally agree.

    39. cearc says:

      Yep, definitely need ‘Auld Gits for Indy’ badges.

    40. orri says:

      The Outlaw King should have been outlawed as formenting common sense in the scottish people.

      It plays fast and loose with history but rings true.

      According to the history where we are The Bruce had already aligned himself with Edward 1.

      The response to the death of Wallace might not have happened in the way shown but the reaction of the English may well have caused a rebellion. Showing that there comes a point where even those with the most to lose might have their fill of the way their countrymen are being treated.

      The death of Edward is to early as it took place after the first English defeat so might have been from a broken heart. Edward II may have refused to learn from it in an attempt to better his dead father.

      Banockburn seems to have been a repeat of the same error of not knowing the lay of the land and attacking a prepared possition.

      Some complaints have been made of it being boring and slow with not enough emphasis on battle. Ignores the fact that that slow boring campaign led to victory. Wallace’s led to a romantic defeat.

      The original Braveheart was Robert the Bruce. Bravery is not the same as stupid or foolhardy. William the Conqueror pulled the finest of Englands warriors out of a superior possition through his favorite tactic of feigned retreat. It’s still celebrated by them. Don’t rush to defeat in your eagerness to win.

    41. TheBuchanLoony says:

      All week the BBC and MSM has smirked and said Spain does not have a veto on tomorrow’s agreement regarding the Gibraltar situation…today they have just realised that if Spain does not turn up in Brussels tomorrow then there can not be an EU agreement…there is frantic UK/Spain negotiations in Brussels at this moment…keep watching for another Theresa ‘compromise’!

    42. Flower of Scotland says:

      Agree Chris, but we still have to keep pushing. We can’t sit back and twiddle our thumbs.

      Nicola Sturgeon is a very astute politician, but we must let her and our NO friends know that we Scots do want Independence!

      We need to keep talking about it. Keep the call on social media.

    43. Phronesis says:

      Brexit has merely turned up the heat on an independence movement that has been simmering way since Indyref1. This is an educated, outward looking democratic movement that will reach its final destination,independence is normal.
      WM has created several constitutional crises-the key ingredients are political ignorance and hubris. A very heady mix of toxic rhetoric and deceit- and no amount of dancing to Abba, pomp or ceremony can undo the demise of the UK.

      ‘UK politics is effectively consumed by English divisions over Brexit, divisions which will not disappear when and if Brexit happens. And, given Scotland’s pro-EU outlook, Scotland’s simmering constitutional and political disconnect to the rest of the UK will surely continue too’

      ‘According to Matts Braun of Södertörn University, visits by Prince William and his wife, also sent to Sweden by the FCO on a royal charm offensive, changed nothing and the clumsy handling by the government of “the Brexit negotiations so far have strengthened Swedish support for EU membership.” Until Brexit Swedish diplomats “had British diplomats as preferred first partners for consultations. This era has gone. The position of the UK for Sweden will be different whatever the outcome of the negotiations and then it will not matter that Theresa May dances to ABBA’

    44. Robert Kerr says:

      Another recruit here. “Auld Gits for Indie”! is for real!

    45. Ken500 says:

      Independence coming soon.

      May has negotiated a ‘deal’ that will cost more with less rights. There still be migration but more red tape, expense and bureaucracy for business.

      The Tory/unionists are in a complete mess. They do not know which way to turn. Labour are useless. A complete shambles. Another GE soon. An increased SNP majority. Then another IndyRef.

      The adulterer DR reporting someone’s ‘fling’. Total hypocrites. The lying VOW fooled some people again.

      May did not let unaccompanied migrant children into Britain. Evel person.

      How can anyone ‘enjoy’ Christmas when people are being sanctioned and starved. It is despicable. There is absolutely no need for it. Or austerity cutting funding for public services. The Westminster unionists were elected to protect. The tax revenues are up. There is absolutely no reason for cutting Scotland’s budget. The Tories are a disgrace.

      Some fisher folk and farmers are reaping what they sow. Let down again by the Westminster Gov. Some people never learn.

    46. Les Wilson says:

      Whatever happens now and I think it will be a cliff fall.
      The end of the English Empire is finally coming to an end.
      It’s last colony and it’s cash cow will be gone.
      It is going to be very hard for England to keep it’s head above the rising waters of debt and despair from that point.

      However, desperate people do desperate things, we need to keep our eyes and ears well open.

    47. Robert Kerr says:

      I am an European! How dare the English take that from me!

      I have worked in The Netherlands, Italy, Spain and France and visited on business Norway and Austria. Amazing change of attitude especially in France when they find out I am Ecossais not Anglais.


    48. Marcia says:

      Robert Kerr

      “Another recruit here. “Auld Gits for Indie”! is for real!”

      Speak for yourself – Maturing nicely for Yes.

    49. schrodingers cat says:

      hows about

      miserable auld basarts fur indy?

      i’m in

      it only takes two to start a revolution 🙂

    50. Dan Huil says:

      Front/right chiel says, “Comb over tae oor side”

    51. Daisy Walker says:

      I’m 49… can I be an auld git too?

      Great cartoon Chris, catches the mood right enough.

      Re Nicola Sturgeon and the People’s Vote. We’ve been saying long enough that we need to speak to and convert the No Voters. I think Nicola’s current position is doing exactly that. She not speaking to the Yes movement (we’re in the bank so to speak) she is speaking to the No’s and representing them and their concerns over Brexit. And because it’s UK wide, as is the pressure for the Peoples Vote, the Brutish media are broadcasting it (for the moment).

      If you look at it from that position, she is playing an absolute blinder.

      Every Yesser is an ambassador for Scotland and for Scotland’s Independence. We said that last time out, now we face the biggest threat to our country since WW2 – and make no mistake, the economic ruin from Brexit will cost lives.

      As a country, we need our former No Voters – the bulk of them – to have confidence in us, in their country and in themselves, and we need all the shoulders tae the wheel.

      And yes, the auld empire will play extremely dirty, there is no doubt. The Ghandi method is the only one that works.

      Peace and love.

    52. handclapping says:

      We can’t have a referendum until we know what the “status quo” is that we are comparing independence to. Nicola can’t call indyref2 until Theresa has finished faffing around with Brexit.

      Blaming Nicola is playing Westminsters game Theresa’s the one you should be giving laldy

    53. ronnie anderson says:

      We’re streets ahead LoL .

    54. handclapping says:

      Marcia … 🙂
      Its ‘old git’ for me

    55. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I like the notion of Auld Gits For Indy, but, have decided, after following that link which the esteemed Mr Anderson posted, to apply to join Coffin Dodgers For Indy – that’s more my style.

    56. birnie says:

      For this auld git, it’s really personal.

      After brexit there is a serious risk that my Finnish daughter-in-law may not be able to live in Scotland; my Helsinki-resident Scots-born son may not be permitted to remain with his wife in Finland; my young school-age grandchildren born in Finland may have to grow up without one or other of their own parents!

      For so many reasons, the Scots/European connection is vital – socially, economically, educationally – and rapid independence is the only safeguard.

    57. Josef Ó Luain says:

      That thin line between Linea in Spain and Gibralter in the U.K. may become million-mile gulf come Sunday evening.

    58. Proud Cybernat says:

      Some what happened to ‘Awesomely handsome Scotsmen for Indy’?

      Nice 1 Chris.

    59. manandboy says:

      Hindsight – the average person’s PhD.

    60. DerekM says:

      Lol great work Chris as always it about sums it up everybody is looking for somebody else to start things off well i say who better than the wingers.

      I agree the yes movement needs to show a little patience as do the SNP though we wingers do not i suggest we do what we do best lead from the front of the yes movement regardless if they like it or not.

      Rev if you have something up your sleeve mate now is most definitely the time,let us use it as a launch pad for indyref2 let us drive the narrative and get it out there before the official kick off this time.

      Oh and what ever you do have up your sleeve please reprint and republish the wee blue book as well,if we need a fundraiser for it it will be worth it even though its 4 years old it shows just how much lies they have told in 4 years would be a most excellent comparison tool to use.

    61. ronnie anderson says:

      Socrates MacSporran awaiting to approve your application no preamble required as with other yes pages .

    62. geeo says:

      There is a growing use of the following phrase by British Nationalists re:fishing.

      “Aye, but the SNP will keep an indy Scotland IN the hated CFP”

      They go awfully quiet when you ask them this..

      “So…..BT were lying when they claimed an indy Scotland would be OUT the EU ?
      Or does that no longer suit the britnat narrative”?

      As i keep telling these british nationalists, if you want to revise history, best wait a bit longer than 4 years, as some people still have a functioning memory.

    63. call me dave says:

      Very inspiring Chris!

      A wee spot of hope and cheer in these uncertain times.

      Empty Brexit seat at the table from Spain likely.
      Spaniard in the works!

      Linky thing for the curling final for those that are interested.

      Scotland v Sweden begins at 13:00hrs

    64. Davy S says:

      This time the Yes campaign needs to make it clear to voters from the outset that virtually all the media is against Scottish independence and will produce lies and misinformation to undermine the case. There are so many examples from the last indyref and since that must be highlighted. This time there will be no holes barred for them as they will be more desperate than ever to undermine us.

    65. ronnie anderson says:

      Josef O Luain Wee correction its La Linea

    66. Capella says:

      @ ScottieDog 9:03
      Uk govt using ‘independent’ think tanks to steer opinion…

      A couple of links about this anti-democratic use of right wing “think tanks” here. Apologies, I can’t remember where I came across these – one is an article by George Monbiot written in 2012 i.e before The Guardian became a right wing rag and GM was forced to recant:
      “A rightwing insurrection is usurping our democracy”

      The other is a remarkable thread by @StillDelvingH: “Who funds the IEA, the TPA, the ASI &co? You know, the RW ‘free trade’ thick tanks advocating tax havens, “freedom” (no regulations like […]” #Trump #Brexit #fakenews #PoshTrump

      Corporate millions being poured into manipulating Government and the public. Something which will affect any election or referendum.
      What a pity that so much money and effort isn’t put to good use for the benefit of all.

    67. Geordie says:

      Nice one Chris, expresses the true hope and positivity of the Indy movement. You know, I could rest content if I knew for certain that we would be Independent in 20 or 30 years.

    68. Ken500 says:

      May plans to introduce 11month visas. ie use people and then throw them out before they can complete 5 years residential status. Like Jersey,

      Increasing red tape, expense and bureaucracy for business. May ‘negotiated’ deal. More money for less rights. A complete waste of time and money.

      It would be better to stop illegal wars causing the worse migration crisis since the 11WW. Costing Europe £Billions and ruining the world economy. Spending £Billions on redundant weaponry for absolute despot monarchies and apartheid States. An absolute disgrace.

      People could stay in their own place instead of bombing the world to bits and illegally sanctioning people. The UK/US appalling policies. If the £Billions had been spent on trade and aid, the world would be a better place. The unionist Parties are appalling.

      Spain supports Scottish EU menbership and will veto the May Brexit proposals.

    69. Capella says:

      An excerpt from George Monbiot:

      Soon after it (The Adam Smith Institute) was founded (in 1977), the institute approached “all the top companies”. About 20 of them responded by sending cheques. Its most enthusiastic supporter was the coup plotter James Goldsmith, one of the most unscrupulous asset strippers of that time. Before making one of his donations, Pirie writes, “he listened carefully as we outlined the project, his eyes twinkling at the audacity and scale of it. Then he had his secretary hand us a cheque for £12,000 as we left”.

      From the beginning, senior journalists on the Telegraph, the Times and the Daily Mail volunteered their services. Every Saturday, in a wine bar called the Cork and Bottle, Margaret Thatcher’s researchers and leader writers and columnists from the Times and Telegraph met staff from the Adam Smith Institute and the Institute of Economic Affairs. Over lunch, they “planned strategy for the week ahead”. These meetings would “co-ordinate our activities to make us more effective collectively”. The journalists would then turn the institute’s proposals into leader columns while the researchers buttonholed shadow ministers.

      Soon, Pirie says, the Mail began running a supportive article on the leader page every time the Adam Smith Institute published something. The paper’s then editor, David English, oversaw these articles himself, and helped the institute to refine its arguments.

      As Pirie’s history progresses, all references to funding cease. Apart from tickets donated by British Airways, no sponsors are named beyond the early 1980s. While the institute claims to campaign on behalf of “the open society”, it is secretive and unaccountable. Today it flatly refuses to say who funds it.

      Pirie describes how his group devised and refined many of the headline policies implemented by Thatcher and John Major. He claims (and produces plenty of evidence to support it) either full or partial credit for the privatisation of the railways and other industries, for the contracting-out of public services to private companies, for the poll tax, the sale of council houses, the internal markets in education and health, the establishment of private prisons, GP fundholding and commissioning and, later, for George Osborne’s tax policies.

      Pirie also wrote the manifesto of the neoliberal wing of Thatcher’s government, No Turning Back. Officially, the authors of the document – which was published by the party – were MPs such as Michael Forsyth, Peter Lilley and Michael Portillo. “Nowhere was there any mention of, or connection to, myself or the Adam Smith Institute. They paid me my £1,000 and we were all happy.” Pirie’s report became the central charter of the doctrine we now call Thatcherism, whose praetorian guard called itself the No Turning Back group.

    70. yesindyref2 says:

      There’s a couple of articles in The National about EU citizens, already gone, or thinking of leaving. One says they must know by the end of December, and unless Brexit is cancelled or a 2nd EU Ref is called, I agree. There’s a time to Hold and it’s been that, then it’s time for the Tough to get going.

      We don’t want to lose the EU zitizens here – or their YES votes!

    71. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      I think (and hope) the National keeps a handle on them, and bars the odd one or two – and they are definitely odd. One or two are genuine people though, or at least, posted in the Herald during Indy Ref 1 under the same name. One or two fakers.

      No, I did say “fakers” 🙂

    72. wull2 says:

      I am an auld git fighting for the young people of Scotland.
      It is too late for me, but not my grandchildren.

      Until we are independent.

      Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.

    73. PacMan says:

      The inescapable fact about the constitutional debate is that one part of Scottish society is desperate for change and the other is happy with the way things are. How do we get those who are happy with the status quo to vote yes at a future indyref?

      To do that, of course there needs to be positive and hopeful message but to shift attitudes there may be need for some of the negative tactics that the British nationalists use but this should only be done for the no-voters own good.

      By doing this for their ‘own good’, I mean too many Scots are blinkered and frankly in a siege mentality against even the notion of independence due to the lies, deceit and manipulation of the British establishment to the point where they would beggar themselves economically if it means clinging to this notion of Britishness.

      With myself, I am normally an open-minded person and listen to reason but at times I can be pig-headed and cling to my position no matter what when I get it in my head to do so, even when I am wrong. At these times, family, friends and work colleagues have had to tell me bluntly, cajoled me and frankly manipulate me like for instance not telling me things as ‘I don’t need to know’ and lying.

      Most of the times I have come around and seen the sense of these actions although I may not agree with how these individuals have went about it but at other times, especially in at work, I see the Machiavellian motives of these individuals which was resulted in losing trust and respect in them.

      If these tactics are to be used to get no voters onboard for their own good, it can only be down from the moral high ground. Brexit is probably the best chance to get independence but for it to work, it means Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish government has to exhaust every option available within the current system before the option of independence can be delivered to the Scottish people. I know that doesn’t sit well with some indy supporters but it needs to be done.

      Once every option is exhausted and independence is the only option then it means we go in to that campaign with our hands cleans and on the moral high ground. Of course the only way to win it is to be positive but there are times when we need to play dirty and frankly need to give some no voters a metaphysical kick up their backsides to shake them out of their pig-headed stupidity and get them to vote the way that is ultimately for their own good.

      To be honest, I’m that great at writing and hopefully I have explained enough to what I am trying to get across.

    74. Capella says:

      Kremlin backed RT has more on think tanks and the media

      Anonymous blows lid off huge psyop in Europe funded by UK & US

      In a document dump on November 5, the group exposed the UK-based ‘Integrity Initiative’, said to have been established by the ominously titled Institute for Statecraft in 2015.

      The main objective is “to provide a coordinated Western response to Russian disinformation and other elements of hybrid warfare.” The Institute for Statecraft is affiliated with the NATO HQ Public Diplomacy Division and the Home Office-funded ‘Prevent’ program, so objectivity is, of course, at the forefront of their work.

      Also see Dirty little secret: ‘Think tanks’ are among top culprits in media disinformation crisis

      BTW great cartoon Chris – cheers me up on a driech Saturday. Old – yes; git – hope not!

    75. Dr Jim says:

      Immigration benefits to Scotland:

      Because of the aging population and a lack of local reproduction a 3% reduction in Scotland’s working age population will lead to the emptying of the highlands and islands by 2040 Mike Russell said

      Don’t tell me the UK don’t know what they’re doing

    76. Referendum1707 says:

      O/T but this might be interesting. Haven’t had time to read the article or comments btl however I did notice that it’s authored by one Bernard Connolly of the Spectator which seems to go against the grain of the headline which appears to suggest that the Scottish electorate has something to be pissed off about concerning developments since indyref1.

      Maybe if someone has time to have a look at it they could report back about it. ZeroHedge is a US based site so there may well be some degree of ignorance about the reality on the ground here but if there is ignorance there it won’t be the wilfully ignorant crap you get from britnats.

    77. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Ronnie Anderson

      I applied to CDFI under my own name, rather than as Socrates (my pen name) and have been accepted. Looking forward to contributing and, thanks for having me.

    78. Lenny Hartley says:

      Im officially a coffin dodger, maybe a bit young , but ive had a few episodes where i nearly was in one. So i qualify on that rather than age ??

    79. Cactus says:

      SO has anybuddy worked out Cairnstoon Hamish’s body language and stance…

      Have ye a further pondering look and thinky.

      Me thinks me knows.

      Do you..?

    80. Artyhetty says:

      Excellent image.

      Scotland is on a positive, life affirming path, and is a welcoming and varied tapestry. Not a narrow, monotone, insular looking one that the Britnats want Scotland to be, and are doing their damndest to bring it about.

      On the subject of Europe, if anyone is interested, I notice the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland have some lectures coming up, one about ‘Scotland and Europe: Politics and National Borders’. On 15th Dec, I think takes place at National Museum of Scotland. Guest speaker prof T.Devine.

      Have a look online, you have to book but it’s free.

    81. Terence callachan says:

      Good luck Socrates macsporran

    82. Cubby says:

      Where have all the British Nationalists gone.

      Where have they gone.

      Where oh where are the Britnats to tell us the oil will run out next year.

      They have been saying the oil will run out since the 70’s when it was supposed to be finished in 1985.

      They are liars, thieves and cowards.

      The Scottish Britnats are all of the above but are also a bunch of tractors. They are complicit in the looting of Scotlands resources for the benefit of another country. It’s like a national exercise in self harm by these Scottish Britnats.

    83. Terence callachan says:

      To PacMan..
      I understand your theme, it’s a good one, but it will not work in Scotland, there will always be Tory voters who will not vote for independence and Labour and Lib Dems who will not vote for Scottish independence but yes there are some who will and can be persuaded but they are a small group.
      By far the biggest troubling group that stopped Scottish independence in 2014 were English people who will not only vote against Scottish independence but will vote tactically shifting between Tory labour Lib Dems in order to keep SNP out, they are a huge number half a million voters and most of them will return to live and work in England and nearly all of them will retire in England.
      They are the real problem, we have been colonised and our politicians appear content to allow this usurpation from within to continue.

    84. Gary45% says:

      Dr Jim@2.06
      We’ve noticed this in the Highlands for years, although the present situation is not helped by Southern Daily Heil Tory “NO” voting retirees, moving to the Highlands and Islands for the better way of life the current Scottish Government are providing which is way better than down south.(But will NEVER vote SNP)!! go figure.
      The continued purchasing of houses for holiday homes (where locals simply have NO CHANCE of competing against said buyers) is also a main factor for the destruction of the local community, houses empty for large parts of the year, causes local amenity’s to simply go out of business.
      I have always found it strange that the media never addresses this issue. Is there something in the Scottish water that makes us Scots age quicker than the rest of the UK? (A Westminster Government would cause that right enough).
      This is a touchy subject, but one that has to be addressed.
      Scotland is open for all, so this is simply not an anti South rant, but something has to be done or Northern Scotland will become a wasteland or playground for the “Establishment”, (some parts already are.)

    85. Sunshine says:

      I just can’t understand all this support for the ‘hold’ option. The reason for the SNP is independence, not to try and broker a better Brexit deal. Name a date, let people have hope and strike while Westminster is fighting on other fronts. People are committing suicide because of sanctions. Use the mandate!

    86. Liz g says:

      Referendum 1707 @ 2.07
      It’s just an apology for a no deal/clean Brexit..
      Mentioning standing up to the EU just like “WE” had to stand up to Napoleon…
      The link to indy ref 1 is pretty thin,and makes the claim that the threats to Scotland were justified.Without actually demonstrating why.
      If no wilfully ignorant (and I think it is) it is nevertheless Completely Ignorant.
      The Comments are no much better,there’s even one fool who mentioned that the oil price was no a good thing to factor into the Scottish economic argument…..WTAF…
      Basically it’s a crock of shit.

    87. Terence callachan says:

      Today I went for a cup of tea in the M&S cafe in Dundee
      I wore my “vote for Scottish independence badge” on my coat
      Alongside it I wore a smaller CND badge
      I received a couple of smiles as I passed people
      I received a couple of stares whilst I enjoyed my cup of tea ,it was old ladies that stared and younger men and women that smiled.
      Does it mean much ? Not really but I’m proud to show that I want my country to handle its own affairs and stop this rediculous situation where we allow another country to control our wealth and control the way we live and just give us pocket money with instructions saying what we should and should not spend it on.
      Ludicrous ,people get a life,take control show some responsibility and show a good example to the young people of your country.

    88. Gary45% says:

      Terence callachan@2.40
      Nice One.

    89. Ian Foulds says:

      Clootie at 8.06

      Indeed this is all about our future generations and good call on it is only us who hold ourselves back. Should be our cry to all in Scotland.

    90. Sarah says:

      Lots of good comments here today – for peace, for determination, for auld folk like me [and seemed like a majority of us that beautiful day in Edinburgh – it was also my birthday]. That doesn’t mean that I’m wholly convinced on “holding” but at least it is cheering to see what a decent bunch Wingers are.

      As for the curling, neck and neck in the 9th end, and Scotland has the hammer in the 10th. I can’t bear to watch!

    91. HYUFD says:

      Sunshine So what is the SNP strategy for people unemployed and claiming benefits but refusing to apply for jobs then if not a sanction, a benefits increase?

    92. HYUFD says:

      Terence Callachan Of course 60% of French speaking Quebecois voted for independence for Quebec from Canada in 1995 too, it was only those who did not have French as their first language who ensured Quebec stayed Canadian. However if English speakers want to live in Quebec and English people in Scotland why should they not get a say in its future?

    93. Referendum1707 says:

      Liz G 2.40

      Ok that sounds like a definitive enough answer! Like I said though I haven’t actually read it b/c was in a rush and thought it might nave been interesting due to the “questioning” nature of the headline.

      Anyway, from the previous thread –

      “Cherry says:
      24 November, 2018 at 12:41 am
      I’m so angry at this blatant attempt to once again plunder our resources. I like most on here have family living and working in England, so my venom is not aimed at English folks. There has to be a case here for us to actually put this anger to use and collectively take this to the police. Surely we have cause to report those responsible with theft, if we can prove the deliberate agenda of lies to withhold the truth of the existence of this oilfield to the Scottish people, in order for the English government to gain financially and deliberately cause confusion to the Scots as to whether we can be financially viable as an independent country. Is it not time we fired across the bow of the good ship brexit, we are the sovereign people let’s start to get off our knees and fight these bastards…Time for us to make some noise!

      Golfnut says:
      24 November, 2018 at 8:24 am
      @ Cherry.
      A petition demanding a Judicial revue would be very effective at highlighting the mendacity of the UK establishment and there acolytes in Scotland.

      It could be done on line of course but I think would be much more effective if it was taken door to door or set up stalls on the high streets.

      Just a simple question.

      Should Politicians, media, Civil service involved in undermining the democratic and Constitutional process to facilitate the theft of Scotland’s resources and hide Scotland’s wealth face criminal charges.

      I’m sure there are charges that could be brought, the judicial revue would determine which were most appropriate.”/

      Anyone think some legs could be put on this? I don’t see why not, if, that is, you care about justice for Scotland.

    94. Liz g says:

      Sunshine @ 2.36
      I thing the idea is to jigger Westminster along to an actual decision.
      Aye, it means putting out some reasonable proposals from Scotland.Not to do so would leave the Government open to accusations of just sitting back and waiting to name the day.Which would translate into not governing for all of Scotland!
      A Scotland that sadly is still in the UK,so therefore a Scotland who must have a thing or two to say about Brexit.
      And so far what we/Nicola have been sayin,sounds pretty dam ok….. not our fault if they don’t listen,is it? ut the one thing they cannot accuse us/Nicola of is, just coasting.

      Westminster,even now,is not committed to anything yet.
      Clearly Westminster will move to protect their Treaty arrangements when we/Nicola name the date.So the more avenues that are closed to them the better.

      They have too much leeway to respond to Indyref2 right now..
      Up to and including taking the position that cancelling Brext is a price they are willing to reluctantly pay to save their precious,precious Union.
      If they are not going to Brext, if they really need to cancel this thing,then they shouldn’t get to use us as their excuse to do so!
      That,I think, is why we wait!

    95. Confused says:

      That Zerohedge article that talks about Brexit and Scotland is just wordy bollocks.

      The guy’s trying to talk about two things at once and getting it mostly doubly-wrong.

      It pains me to think these guys can make a good screw spraffing out such crap. It’s a mishmash of churning factoid technical-jargon-ality. Prick’s probably on low 6 figures, easy.

      Is there a clear idea in it? – Does anyone give a fuck? ZeroHedge – Zero-FUCKS more like.

      I normally like Zerohedge when it does negative criticism – it can really pull apart nitty-gritty financial stuff. They also give you people like Taleb, who is always good value.

      The trouble with that site is when it is proposing the positive – they are all extreme free market nutcases, Austrian school/mises – so “the market” solves all problems.

      In this point of view, a hard brexit just means that Britain will spontaneously re-organise its economy – stand well back and wait for British smartphones and flat screen TVs … as if. What’s really going to happen we all know – following on from yesterday – they are going to pump the NEW oil as fast as they can to keep their scams running. Maybe fracking as well, but only in the “Norf” – not in their own backyards.

    96. PacMan says:

      Terence callachan @ 24 November, 2018 at 2:28 pm

      Thanks Terence. I do ramble a bit when writing and afraid that I don’t get across what I mean. TBH, I am trying to articulate about recent events but ongoing ones as well.

      I get what you are saying about the demographic and political split of Scottish society. Some people are not going to be won over no matter what. Another inescapable fact a democratic society is run by the consensus of the majority which needs to be accepted by the minority. For indyref to be won, then a majority needs to be built. Can that be done by bypassing the groups you mentioned?

      The common thing I had heard throughout the last indyref was sneering and cynicism that indy was a pig in the poke and people who were sold on it were soft in the head. Sure, a positive and hopeful message is good but there needs to be a sensibility to it. Lets be honest about it, those who voted No did so for a number of reasons, one of them being the ‘affect on the economy’ i.e. personal greed.

      Will there need to be an element of that in the next campaign? If so, such things it needs to be done with a bit of credibility as well as a theme that is different from the BritNats because if we are offering the same then what is point? There is no doubt that Scotland has significant natural resources that can transform it but it needs to come from the taxes of hard working Scots. If a vision of a country having high skilled, well paid jobs that an independent Scotland can be presented to ordinary working class Scots and yes that includes dyed in the wool working class Rangers supporting ones then maybe we can win them over?

      To get this group over from their current position to indy involves what I had mentioned in my previous post but it also involves putting the boot in the BritNat politicians. They want to play dirty with their lies and deceit then the indy movement needs to take the gloves off. However, it needs to be done sensibly as the stairheid rammy between NS and Johann Lamont turned off voters.

      Politics is a dirty game and if you seriously want to win in it then you need to play by those rules. However, you need to be right in doing this in order to justify this. As I had mentioned, NS and the Scottish government is doing the right thing, even though it is painfully frustrating for us at the bottom. If Brexit results in a second indy ref then those at the top of the indy campaign can come into the fight with their hands clean and if they need to fight below the belt, they will have the right to do so.

      I’m trying to get across that we simply can’t imitate the BritNats but that doesn’t mean that we can’t employ some of their tactics just because they are using it if that means winning over voters in order to build the majority required for independence.

      I don’t really know much about politics and only commenting on my experience and what I got from those whom I’m certain voted no at indyref1.

    97. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Referendum1707 @ 14:07,

      I have to concur with previous posters on this article. Among other nonsenses, the author postulates:

      What about the threatened biblical plagues that will supposedly be visited on us if we leave without a deal? Why were these blood-curdling threats not made in the Scottish referendum?

      He obviously hasn’t a clue about what was said to us by BT in IR1. All carefully orchestrated by No.10 with business folks.

      Now those same folks have been strangely quiet in the media over Brexit. But here’s the thing: you can be sure that they have been busily funding the so-called “Peoples’ Vote” campaign.

      And what most people don’t seem to comprehend either is that for many big businesses, Brexit has already happened. They couldn’t afford to wait forever for the WM Establishment to sort out its multiple confusions, and have already begun enacting their plans on the Q/T. No scary stories, just plain hard-headed actions, all heading for the lifeboats.

      Check the small print of whom you are dealing with. Just f’rinstance, eBay uk isn’t located here any more – it has quietly relocated to Germany. Easyjet’s planes are registered in Austria. I could go on.

      We in Scotland have been manipulated into an artificial stasis while significant events on the ground are quietly stacking up around us without our knowledge or approval.

    98. call me dave says:

      Spanish PM Pedro Sanchez received assurances from the UK government over Gibraltar, and dropped his threat to boycott the summit.


      Scotland win Gold at the curling. Good game too.

    99. yesindyref2 says:

      Jings, not pretty but a win, yay!

    100. JLT says:

      I’m now at that stage …biting at the bit. Hopefully (?!?!) …it’s not too long now.

      So determined to get in and round Unionists so we can those ‘debates’ …especially now that their 2014 arguments all lie in tatters with no credibility left.

      As Wendy Alexander once said ‘…bring it on!!!’

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      I see yadda yadda yadda is back again, boring yadda.

    102. Andy-B says:

      Nice on Chris.

      Hope over fear always.

    103. Alba woman says:

      Fortune favours the Brave……

    104. Referendum1707 says:

      Confused 3.08

      I used to go to ZH quite a lot before I found WoS etc and back then it was better than it is now. Sometimes when you’re on there btl now you could be forgiven for thinking you’d accidentally landed on some nazi redneck thing, it’s like all blacks are criminals all browns are terrorists and it’s all the Jews fault.

      However it’s not all like that and you can still find some good articles and comments.

    105. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Alexander Harrison says: 24 November, 2018 at 10:31 am:

      ” … come on Nicola call indyref2 soon.”


      What is the point of calling a referendum if the odds say you will lose it?

      If we did lose another referendum it would not be the end of the quest for independence but I sure as hell would never live in an independent Scotland.

      The people with the most insightful information of the matter are, without doubt, the SG and SNP. Leave it to the experts who have brought us to the point of success.

      I’ve been supporting Scottish independence now for 70 years. No one is more desirous of living in an independent Scotland than I.
      Yet I will NOT be telling Nicola, the SG or the SNP to mindlessly charge at the enemy, like a bull at a gate. until the leadership asks us to when they, not the infantry soldiers, think the time is right.

      What is the point of opening fire upon a well armoured charging enemy force when they are still out of range of your guns?

      I am deeply suspicious of those who are urging such a premature action. Just whose side are they on – do they want us to lose?

    106. Luigi says:


      BritNats are ramping up the pressure on Nicola to go too soon. They are really rattled.

      Who is the mole in the National?

    107. Luigi says:

      From Independence Live:

      Ellen Joëlle Höfer responds to today’s front page of @ScotNational. “This headline does in no way reflect any of the statements made by any of the people within this article. This headline is very populist and it is very polarising.” #Gathering2

    108. Cubby says:

      The Maybot sells out Gibraltar.

      Is there anyone she has not sold out trying to get this deal through.

      Britnats now fighting each other not only in the British isles but in the Mediterranean.

      Britnats don’t just lie and deceive Independence supporters they lie and deceive each other. The worse Britnats are as always the Tory Britnats. They are just monsters – killing people and ruining lives. M. Gove the Christian monster.

    109. Robert Peffers says:

      @Flower of Scotland says: 24 November, 2018 at 11:08 am:

      ” … we must let her and our NO friends know that we Scots do want Independence!

      If there is anyone in the United Kingdom who is not yet aware Scots want independence they are either unconscious, in an induced coma or so bloody out of their minds on drugs or booze as to be as good as in a coma.

    110. Collie says:

      Who gives a fuck about the BritNat No Voting bastards of Scottish Rugby?

    111. Robert Kerr says:

      Pedro Sanchez shall learn soon enough how perfidious albion can be.

      Read the Reuters report and it is fudge!

    112. Ken500 says:

      The EU citizens voted NO the last time. So it should should no skew the vote, if some leave.

      Holiday home owners should not have a vote. In UK the main residence is the principal address for eligible vote. The Councils should not be issuing voting or polling papers for second home owners, outwith Scotland.

      It just takes 5%.

    113. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 17:02,

      It’s eminently sensible to bide our time, as now, until a situation clarifies, provided there is a clear (and principled) plan of action and – above all – a definite willingness to put it into action.

      What I find depressing is the pernicious notion from some that we can somehow afford to wait forever. We can’t. If we don’t catch the tide when it’s at its height, we’ll end up beached and regretting another lost opportunity. We are in danger of being hobbled by the hesitant “60%-ers”, those who seem to want to wait for an event that will never actually happen of its own accord.

      I get the distinct impression that there are some who are waiting for a trumpet to sound, the heavens to open, and mile-high letters in the sky declaring “Peffers, the time is now”.

      Instead we have this damnable chicken-and-egg situation, in which the only way we can possibly reach the necessary majority is after we launch a campaign, so if we wait for the majority first we will never achieve it.

      It’s the old saying: you have to speculate to accumulate.

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      Wales are going to take a lot of beating in the 6 Nations.

      @ Collie says: 24 November, 2018 at 6:15 am (helping-out-murdo)
      Fuck all the No Voting bastards of Scottish Rugby

      @Collie says: 24 November, 2018 at 5:23 pm
      Who gives a fuck about the BritNat No Voting bastards of Scottish Rugby?

      Seems to be a one-track divisive theme here.

      Bark off Collie.

    115. Collie says:


      You come across as a BritNat who’s bedroom is covered in posters of your fellow BritNats the No Voting Hastings brothers.

    116. One_Scot says:

      Lol, here we go, might crack open a few bottles. 🙂

    117. yesindyref2 says:

      Your only contributions have been the likes of “fucking English navy” when I talk about defence, and now “No Votin bastards” When I mention rugby.

      You are a troll.

    118. Bobp says:

      Collie 6.15pm. You also forgot the Mcgregor brothers, colin and ewan.

    119. Breeks says:

      From Rev’s Twitter feed, and the Independence Live link, it seems that our European friends are getting all kinds of abuse following headlines in the National that EU citizens are going to up sticks and leave if they don’t get a Referendum soon.

      The anger, quite rightly seems aimed at the National, partly because the headline isn’t true, but also because it has launched our EU friends into the direct firing line. Nice one National!

      It’s all very well for us to say “If you can’t hold on, hold on”, but these friends from Europe who have chosen to make their lives here in Scotland have a lot more riding on Brexit than we do. Don’t for one moment think I’m underplaying the catastrophic effect of Brexit on all of us, but they get that Brexit like we all do, but a heap more heartbreaking calamity heaped on top.

      We have 125 days to save Scotland from Brexit. I think it’s tortuous enough waiting myself as a Scot by birth, but I can only imagine the layers of despair if you are a European citizen faced with losing their home and career here in Scotland as a consequence of xenophobic UK Immigration policy.

      I bet I could guess what these folks would like for Christmas, and it isn’t mince pies and turkey.

      125 days left. Yet Mum’s still the word eh?

    120. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Collie @ 18:15,

      Well, pal, you come across as a street drunk looking for a fight.

      Not a good look for a supposed supporter of independence. You’re very trigger-happy with the “BritNat” accusations as well, which might make us wonder what propels you to be so egregiously divisive.

      I suggest you acquaint yourself more thoroughly with the house rules, or your sojourn here may be brief.

    121. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindy2ref Wales are good but not as good as Ireland, dont know how Engerland or France are doing but I fancy a Celtic 1 and 2 with Scotland getting at best six points for wins at home over Italy and France.

    122. Essexexile says:

      Yesindyref2 at 4.18
      Winning ugly is a sure sign we’re improving. Our line out was a horror show today and the way the Pumas broke through our defence several times late on was a bit heart in mouth.
      A better team would have punished us of course but we did enough on the day, and I’ll raise a wee dram to that.

    123. Legerwood says:

      Mrs May certainly seems to have coneded quite a bit on Gibraltar although you might not realise it from the BBC’s anodyne report.

      From The Guardian report on the Gibraltar deal.

      “”On the eve of Sunday’s special Brexit summit, the British ambassador to the EU, Sir Tim Barrow, wrote to concede that Gibraltar would not necessarily be covered by a future trade deal with the EU.

      “The development gives Spain a veto over Gibraltar benefiting from a future trade and security agreement between Brussels and the British government.

      “The Spanish leader, Pedro Sánchez, reacted immediately, claiming the UK would now have to open talks on “joint sovereignty” of Gibraltar, over which Spain has had a claim since the military dictatorship of Francisco Franco.
      Sánchez said: “Once the UK has left the EU, Gibraltar’s political, legal and even geographic relationship with the EU will go through Spain …

      “Spain will be a fundamental pillar of the relationship between Gibraltar and the EU as a whole.

      “When it comes to the future political declaration, the European council and the European commission have backed Spain’s position, and backed it as never before.

      “In these fundamental future negotiations, we’re going to have to talk about joint sovereignty and many other things with the UK.”

      Don’t think the people of Gibraltar will be to happy.
      Joint sovereignty, not exactly taking back control.

    124. Liam says:

      Robert Kerr says:
      24 November, 2018 at 11:14 am

      Another recruit here. “Auld Gits for Indie”! is for real!

      What’s the lower age limit?

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      I’d put Wales and Ireland equal at the moment, though Wales are nearly 4 points adrift in the world rankings. But Scotland are still developing, and could challenge.

      The team’s played better rugby and lost, but being able to win is a part od the quality of the team. Still, Scotland are 7th in the world rankings, with 3 or 4 sins rather than just 1, could have been challenging for the top 4.

      So it’s all to play for in the 6 nations.

    126. PacMan says:

      Robert Peffers says: 24 November, 2018 at 5:02 pm

      @Robert Alexander Harrison says: 24 November, 2018 at 10:31 am:

      ” … come on Nicola call indyref2 soon.”


      What is the point of calling a referendum if the odds say you will lose it?

      If we did lose another referendum it would not be the end of the quest for independence but I sure as hell would never live in an independent Scotland.

      The people with the most insightful information of the matter are, without doubt, the SG and SNP. Leave it to the experts who have brought us to the point of success.

      I’ve been supporting Scottish independence now for 70 years. No one is more desirous of living in an independent Scotland than I.
      Yet I will NOT be telling Nicola, the SG or the SNP to mindlessly charge at the enemy, like a bull at a gate. until the leadership asks us to when they, not the infantry soldiers, think the time is right.

      What is the point of opening fire upon a well armoured charging enemy force when they are still out of range of your guns?

      I am deeply suspicious of those who are urging such a premature action. Just whose side are they on – do they want us to lose?

      In my posts to this thread, I have been trying to articulate a feeling I have about how the road to indy needs to go. You can call it being more ruthless or clinical. This doesn’t sit well with me because it isn’t what I am and what I stand for but in politics there are certain realities that needs to be adhered to and things that need to be done if you want to win.

      There is no doubt that the British establishment is at it’s weakest and it is tempting to strike now but as all know the British establishment works at it’s best when it’s back to the wall so it would be foolhardy to do anything now.

      Besides, NS is the leader of the SNP, the Scottish National Party, the only national party of Scotland. If that means anything and her government has to abide by the wishes of the whole of the Scottish people. At this present time that means keeping Scotland in Europe and doing everything necessary to ensure that happens. If that fails then independence in Europe is the only option. To exploit a situation for narrow party ideological gain is simply not an option if NS and the SNP is to go into a future indy referendum and hope to win it.

    127. Collie says:


      Call me what you like,,but one thing I am sure of and that is you are a fuckin BritNat luvvin bastard.

    128. yesindyref2 says:

      Screwed that up, 3 or 4 wins rather than just 2. Imagine complaining about winning “just” half the games.

    129. yesindyref2 says:

      People can check out themselves what is basically an attempt to stir up anti-English feelings, or be divisive considering that some of the team at least, do support Indy. You’re not even very good at it.

      Just google “collie says:”

    130. Collie says:


      My last post got deleted,,,I must have been a little too honest

    131. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      2019 – so we will be away to England & France – and at home to Wales & Ireland & I think Italy.

    132. Essexexile says:

      Collie, I’m trying to spot you in Chris’s cartoon.
      I’m looking for a face contorted by hate glaring with suspicion at those around him.
      No, can’t see you. Must be with the other lot.

    133. Collie says:

      The No Voting BritNat bastards of Scottish Rugby don’t deserve any time spent on them in these pages. Just ask Gavin Hastings what ge thinks of Wings Over Scotland and it will prove my point.

      He will say that him and the majority at the centre of Scottish Rugby support staying in the UK,, no matter what.

      Which is why I rightly describe yesindyref2 as a BritNat luvvin bastard.

    134. Cubby says:


      Great post on the rugby.

    135. Davy says:

      Question :- at 60 do I qualify as an “old git for indy” or just a ‘git’.

      this is a request on behalf of my wife, and everyone else that knows me ?

      My wife’s opinion will be biased.

    136. Cubby says:

      Methinks sensibledave has come back from the dead as a collie dog.

    137. ben madigan says:

      PacMan who said: “There is no doubt that the British establishment is at it’s weakest and it is tempting to strike now but as all know the British establishment works at it’s best when it’s back to the wall so it would be foolhardy to do anything now.”

      Nice recipe for doing nothing – on the one hand . . . and on the other hand . . .

      compare and contrast with Ireland’s Liberator motto (19th Century).

      “England’s difficulty is Ireland’s opportunity”

      Look where Ireland stands now – she has taken her place among the nations of Europe

      Where stands Scotland now?

    138. Cubby says:

      Davy @8.43pm

      Definition of git: An unpleasant or contemptible person – surely not.

    139. Robert Kerr says:

      Further re Gibraltar weasel words

      “The British ambassador to the EU, Sir Tim Barrow, wrote to concede that Gibraltar would not necessarily be covered by a future trade deal with the EU”.

      “necessarily” is the new “normally” as per Sewel Convention.

    140. Lenny Hartley says:

      Collie, my dug is a Collie and comes over as far more intelligent than you.
      Yesindy2ref is a yesser through and through, I know him, you come over as a Brit Nat Troll.
      Btw I support Scotland at every sport they play including Rugby a game which I have spend the last seven hours watching and enjoying.
      When your shift ends why dont you go onto catch up and watch a game or two, or is it too complex for you to understand?

    141. Tinto Chiel says:

      You can only laugh when someone calls yesindyref2 a Britnat troll.

      He’s been posting here and elsewhere at length for ages.

      Desperate stuff.

      Mind you, his jokes are crap 😛

    142. Robert Louis says:

      Man, some seriously idiotic trolling going on. Seem the 77th brigade/GCHQ assume our heads zip up the back.

      Can’t they at least attempt to be subtle?? I hope they aren’t getting paid much.

    143. Ghillie says:

      Chris =)

      What a lovely picture you paint 🙂

      And true. I see courage, love and hope.

      It looks like Hamish is holding out his hand to someone…

      Is she called Freedom 🙂

    144. galamcennalath says:

      ” Brexit: High Court to rule if referendum vote ‘void’ as early as Christmas after Arron Banks investigation

      Exclusive: Judges poised to fast-track explosive legal challenge after Theresa May’s ‘failure to act’ on growing evidence of illegality “

      Then there’s ECJ case which may say that Westminster can unilaterally cancel Arcticle 50.

      The whole fiasco could melt down and simply disappear!

      The English Nationalist and hard cord Brexiteers won’t like that one little bit.

    145. Ghillie says:

      Or is Hamish being greeted by the rest of the World?

      Uplifting message Chris 🙂

      As the thepnr says, good things are worth waiting for =)

    146. manandboy says:

      Opinion polls are part of British propaganda. When oh when are people going to catch on.

      An opinion poll is like a half-price sale – no one can resist it.

      Please, wisen up. If you wanted to con the public, what better device than an opinion poll. People automatically believe them. A propagandists dream!

    147. Robert Louis says:

      So, to round off her madcap schemes, whilst ignoring everybody, Theresa the dictator has agreed to sell out on just about everybody, except ‘England’ – and herself.

      Scotland – sold out by Theresa

      Fishing rights – sold out by theresa

      The DUP – sold out by Theresa

      Her own party – sold out by Theresa

      Parliamentary democracy – sold out by Theresa

      Seriously, that women will be remembered as the person who sold out everybody to save her own political skin. But she doesn’t care, because she won’t have to suffer the consequences, what with her banking and investment millionaire husband. As the disaster of brexit kicks in, Theresa will be sunning herself somewhere nice, with her money stashed in anonymous foreign accounts.

      All of us will be left with her mess, Theresa May is 61 and her husband, 62. Both will likely retire soon, and will never have to accept ANY liability for their terrible, terrible actions against so many people.

    148. Iain says:

      I think that the hour to strike is coming soon, Nicola will see the opportunity and seize it.
      England is obsessed with Brexit and can see nothing else, pity it won’t come.
      Brexit is dead but the media won’t see the obvious.
      Hopefully Scotland and Northern Ireland will be blamed for the collapse of the project.
      English nationism and their fear of foreigners will triumph and we will be free.

    149. Robert Louis says:

      And further to my comment above, NOW Theresa has sold out Gibraltar (where 99% voted to stay in the EU).


    150. jfngw says:

      Still having a laugh at those unionist claiming that Scotland would be a minority voice at the EU top table. They fail to notice that at least we would be at the table, unlike the UK were there is no Scottish representation even invited to the table, and any input at the HoC by the largest Scottish party (actually the only Scottish party there) is met by jeers and woofs.

    151. Cubby says:


      I always knew you were a Britnat troll it just took that mild mannered nice guy to point out all the evidence I had been blind to. I now realise if you support the Scotland rugby team you are without doubt a Britnat troll. It’s just so bleeding obvious. The evidence is overwhelming. How on earth did I miss it. You have blown your cover.

      Stop posting on Wings you Britnat.

    152. Cactus says:

      Kindly have ye a closer look in at CT Hamish frae above:

      Hamish stands halfway now at the top of the hill, but do you see that there are NOW Yes Peoples ‘beyond the barrier’… we have NOW passed halfway point of the journey! Hamish represents an independent Scotland, all we have to do is put a Saltire in Hamish’s hand and watch as the camera angle rises, draws in, as Hamish spreads his Wings and soars over a free Scotland.

      “Aye say, young lady to the right of Hamish, Yes, please place it within the paw.”

      Alike the Candle of Hope, give Hamish something to hold on to.

      It’s one heck of a roller-coaster ride, Caesartists!

      Less than 6 days remaining to go.

    153. jfngw says:

      Tories in Scotland of course love the union, because even though Scotland hasn’t voted Tory since the 1950’s, Scotland has had a Tory government for around 60% of this time. It the sort of democracy that appeals to them, it doesn’t much matter what Scotland votes for, the will of England will be imposed.

      It’s a bit like the MSP list system, no matter by how big a margin you are rejected by the electorate, you will still be there.

    154. Terence callachan says:

      To PacMan…
      Well said , I take your points well, we are on the same side.
      Looking forward to more of your opinions and comments here on WOS

    155. Terence callachan says:

      To HYFUD…
      The language spoken is not sufficient to qualify you voting in an election anywhere in the world
      So no
      Speaking English is not all that is required by Englands Westminster if you apply for a passport I guess you were not aware of that.

    156. Hamish100 says:

      Collie dug

      You protest too much I think.

      You’re a ukipper

      Ps penny for the swear box. Give to charit like a foodbanks

    157. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ 10.00
      Beautifully put my friend.

    158. Robert Peffers says:

      @PacMan says: 24 November, 2018 at 8:00 pm:

      ” … There is no doubt that the British establishment is at it’s weakest and it is tempting to strike now but as all know the British establishment works at it’s best when it’s back to the wall so it would be foolhardy to do anything now.”

      Great post, Pacman, but I’ll add something to it. Most people do not realise just how massive and ruthless the Westminster Establishment really is. It is a lot more than just the Westminster Parliament.

      It includes the whole of the Civil Service, the Whitehall ministries, the armed and security forces, The police and the English legal system, the upper strata of the English education system, The City, (financial sector), of London, the Established Church, (C of E), many so called, “independent”, Think tanks and the English monarchy and aristocracy plus, of course, the Bank of England plus the government owned and funded BBC but, via the wealthy financiers, the Establishment also controls the press and so called independent broadcasters.

      If you have doubts about all this Google, “The Remembrancer”, and wonder who that person sitting near, but above, the Speaker of the House of Commons and who is never mentioned in Hansard or anywhere else for that matter.

      The, “City of London”, is a city within a city and is treated more or less like an independent city state.

      This is a formidable foe for indy to confront – yet we are, (very slowly), overcoming it.

      We must, though, get a clear majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to delegate their legal sovereignty to the SG in order to make our legal claim of independence be accepted by the international community and international law.

      No other organ is there to further Scottish independence. Only a Scottish Government and, with luck, also a SNP majority of Scots MPs at Westminster can win Scotland’s freedom.

      Make no mistake the Establishment will have sleepers planted within the SNP and throughout every organisation that is fighting for indy. Maybe even here on Wings, or should that be probably right here on Wings.

    159. Breeks says:

      galamcennalath says:
      24 November, 2018 at 9:34 pm
      ” Brexit: High Court to rule if referendum vote ‘void’ as early as Christmas after Arron Banks investigation

      Exclusive: Judges poised to fast-track explosive legal challenge after Theresa May’s ‘failure to act’ on growing evidence of illegality “

      Aye, but a whitewash of UK Propaganda in Scotland is fine, Davidson’s knowledge of postal ballot results in 2014 is hunky dory, BBC driving a horse and cart through Purdah Rules is fine, and Dark Money which ousted Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson is no cause for concern,… but wait, something funny about Brexit??? Hellfire! Let’s take it to the High Court and void the result!!!

      Is there enough room in the Dock at the High Court for all of Scotland’s “failure to act”?

    160. Breeks says:

      Sleepers planted at the SNP Robert? Aye, plenty sleepers there right enough.

    161. Cactus says:

      Scotland’s going over the top…

      Scotland is Stallone:

      Nobody owns Scotland but us.


    162. Legerwood says:

      Parliament flexing its muscles in the continuing saga of Cambridge Analytica and Facebook.

      Parliamentary Committee has seized internal papers from Facebook.

      Carol Cadwalldar reporting in the Guardian

      Just what May needs on top of the court case and police investigation of Banks.

      Wheels coming off.

    163. Epiphyta says:

      Robert J. Sutherland @ 3.38:

      what most people don’t seem to comprehend either is that for many big businesses, Brexit has already happened. They couldn’t afford to wait forever for the WM Establishment to sort out its multiple confusions, and have already begun enacting their plans on the Q/T. No scary stories, just plain hard-headed actions, all heading for the lifeboats.

      I haven’t posted here in some time, but am still reading, and wanted to confirm this. My spouse’s employer announced internally at the beginning of this month that the London offices would be closed when the lease ends in March, with operations and personnel already moving to the Paris and Lisbon locations. (They’re also closing offices in the US and shifting to the Canadian locations.)

      We had so hoped for a move to Edinburgh or Dundee. Perhaps it will happen yet – I would be proud to live in an independant Scotland.

    164. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 24 November, 2018 at 5:56 pm:

      ” … It’s eminently sensible to bide our time, as now, until a situation clarifies, provided there is a clear (and principled) plan of action and – above all – a definite willingness to put it into action.”

      And what makes you imagine, for it is in your imagination, that the one and only political party in Scotland whose raison d’être since its inception in 1934 has been independence for Scotland and whose leadership are not just placemen and women put there by a corrupt establishment.

      Most of the SNP people elected to serve have taken a cut to their incomes to serve. For example Nicola was a practising lawyer and Alex Salmond a very successful economist and journalist. These people, like many of us here, are lifelong supporters of Scottish independence and have devoted their lives to the cause since their teens.

      The simply are not in it for either easy money or because they have failed in their previous choice of employment. It is insulting to compare them with people from Establishment parties who got into Holyrood from the list chosen by their London unionist parties.

      These people know what they are doing and, to date, have done it well.

    165. Cactus says:

      Hey Liz g howde do xx 😉 ahm getting intae oor Scottish Season 2018/19.

      It all begins and goes through to…

      – St Andrew’s day / night (2018)
      – Scottish Santa day / night (2018)
      – Stallone day / night (2018)
      – Hogmanay / Auld Lang Syne (2018/19)
      – First footing (2019)
      – Burn’s day / night (2019)

      It will be part of our Winter Festival 20XX when we are independent internationally.

      Exciting 2018 times!

    166. Thepnr says:


      Interesting development and one worth watching. Thanks for the link.

    167. Robert Peffers says:

      For those who think nothing is getting done, have a wee scance at this:-

    168. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ 11.25
      I’m doing good friend Cactus, how bout you?
      Exciting 2018 times indeed….. but 2019 is when it all takes off… what say you Cactus??
      We Scocts know.. that thing that Westminster disnay…
      Even, The wee weans Ken the the difference between Auld Nick & Auld st Nick…
      This is crucial…. Aye? We don’t get confused like Westminster do!!

    169. yesindyref2 says:

      @TC “Mind you, his jokes are crap ?

      Now that hurt, that REALLY hurt!

      @Cubby “Stop posting on Wings you Britnat.

      Revenge is sweet as they say 🙂

    170. HYUFD says:

      jfngw Not entirely true, the Tories won a majority in England in 1964 and February 1974 but the UK elected a Labour government

    171. Legerwood says:

      People’s Vote, People’s Vote. I am really sick of hearing that phrase you know, like it was Badgers that voted the last time.

      Then it struck me just now why the don’t/won’t call it what it is, a referendum, an EU referendum because then it would be EUref2 (actually EUref3 but whose counting) and EUref2 sounds awfully like Indyref2.

      No way can they let those pesky Scots think a second Referendum on independence 5 years after the first is OK. Especially so when your pushing for a second EU referendum 2 years after the last one. Certainly creates a precedent doesn’t It?

      Best to avoid the R word and go with People’s Vote.

      Right, that’s me for the night.

    172. Cactus says:

      Aye aye ahm groovily grand Liz, ah watched The Two Towers (aussi in Jedi audio) thru last night too, did the shopping the day, got the dishes done, put on and out a Lovely washin’, went for a walk, had a power-shower and here aye am drinking red wine with you fine people, ahoy!

      Yeah, by 2019 (and thru), the iQuickening should crystallise.

      How do ye think the meeting will go for May ra day?

    173. yesindyref2 says:

      The UKSC ruling on the Miller Appeal isn’t couched in everyday language. But the essence I think was that the EU Ref was advisory, not legally binding, but politically could not be ignored. The effect of this was that there was no (Royal) prerogative of the Ministers, it was for Parliament to enact the withdrawal, and authorise the Article 50 invocation. Bear with me!

      The thing is the EU referendum was legislated for by the UK Parliament, so it was the UK Parliament that had the right and political duty to enact the result.

      In a similar way, Indy Ref 1 was legislated for by the Scottish Parliament, and therefore it would have been for the Scottish parliament not Ministers to implement the result if it was a YES vote. But it would also not be for the UK Parliament to implement OUR side of the neccessary legislation, only their own. So in effect Indy Ref 1 was advisory, the Edinburgh Agreement was coincidental, a EYS would ahve made it the duty of the Scottish Parlaiment to implement Independence.

      And now we come to Indy Ref 2. If it takes place it is advisory, and for the Scottish parliament, not the UK Parliament to enact in the case of a YES vote. And that is regardless of whether “authorised” or not via a Section 30 Order.

      There’s some pretty obvious conclusions from that.

    174. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ 11.58
      Oh they (EU) will nod the deal through….
      I would….then the fun starts…yay..

      Remember what Rose was told “there’s not enough lifeboats for everyone aboard “ but Scotland’s boats are swung out and ready to go.. and it’s all of us first!!

      Red wine eh…. me too great minds think alike…lol

    175. Cactus says:

      Aye, let the fun begin!

      Every night is movie night now, next film is Jo Nesbo’s “Headhunters” with Norwegian audio and subs. New popcorns please hehe.

      A thriller of a story about survival.

    176. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 12.17am

      Excellent post. ( for a Britnat ). Ha ha

    177. Stevieh says:

      Hi all not sure if folks are interested or not but thing on clearpoll re should mundell resign. Suggest we all vote our personal preference ahem ahem ahem

    178. Grouse Beater says:

      Lot of flag waving going on, Chris. Very unhealthy!

      You’re essential weekend reading:

      Taming Power – and the SNP:

    179. Iain mhor says:

      Catching a red-eye.
      Anyway.. As Hyfud (sorry, you’re taking it in good spirit, or naive about it..)
      As HYUFD is here to stay, may I enquire again your stance, purely from a logical standpoint.
      England and Scotland were ‘dissolved and/or ‘extinguished’ and the Kingdom of Great Britain replaced them. Is that it? Or a variation on that theme?
      I actually am genuinely interested.
      Not to initially argue against such a thing having happened, merely to make sense of your position.
      Without a frame of reference, your posts are all over the place like a mad wummins shite.
      I have enquired previously, but to no avail.

    180. Al Dossary says:

      @Ian mhor, 3:52am

      Why even engage the troll? Just leave him and his opinions to float in he ether and scroll on by – I know I do and have done for weeks. If I want to read bat-shit crazy right wing, xenophobic opinions then I will go to somewhere like conservative home or the daily Heil.

      Almost I replied one time, but my head overruled and common sense prevailed.

      Who knows, maybe he will eventually start to thik that he has been ghost-blocked and give up.

    181. sandy says:

      Just watched EBC news @ 06.00 hrs. Who or what the hell is “lord Caithness”. Where the hell was that hatched from?
      God, who ever you are, please give us strength.

    182. Sharny Dubs says:

      Ald Git for Indy,
      Grumpy chapter.

    183. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 24 November, 2018 at 11:47 pm:

      ” … jfngw Not entirely true, the Tories won a majority in England in 1964 and February 1974 but the UK elected a Labour government.”

      So England got red Tories instead of blue Tories there are three unionist parties at Westminster and you cannot shove a RIZLA paper between any two of them. They, together, are the political wing of the Westminster Establishment and all are anti-Scottish.

      The Westminster Establishment of all colours buried the McCrone report in the Westminster vaults and robbed Scotland blind.

      Not to worry, though, we will be free of Westminster and poor deluded English/British nationalists like you, (and you will be poor after the union ends and England, (The Kingdom), has to love within their own means), finally are forced to accept the truth.

      Scotland is a net exporter of food/drink, fuel and power while England are net importers of all three commodities and after Brexit, “The City”, will dissolve and spread itself throughout the World. There is no longer a need for financial services to live cheek by jowl in these days of fast and reliable on-line communications.

      A World benefit kicked off by Scottish born people forced out of their native land by Westminster policies in the past. Telegraph, telephone, radio/TV/radar, electronics and transport innovations were heavily influenced by the Scottish inventors and discoverers.

      Now the Westminster evils of the past are coming home to roost in London. When Theresa drives the Westminster bus over the White Cliffs of Dover the end is in sight.

    184. manandboy says:

      The British Government and ‘Covert Operations’, go hand-in-hand. But, with the Scottish Independence Referendum in 2014, which would have resulted in England becoming bankrupt, the British Government decided, out of respect for the Scottish people, the Scottish government, and the SNP, that they would not interfere with the vote in any way, but would allow Democracy to run its course unhindered.

      That is the official version of what happened on September 18, 2014, the day Scotland freely and without any coercion or external influence, voted to remain a Colony of the British Empire, with full permission for Westminster to just continue to take at their leisure, any and all of Scotland’s natural wealth, including 500,000 barrels of oil per day – and everything else besides.

      Many believe that current voting security measures are perfectly adequate for Indyref2. This includes the deputy leader of the SNP.

      Not that it’s important or anything like that.

    185. wull2 says:

      To me the EU know what they are doing.
      I also hope the deal goes through, time will make it clearer.

      Until we are independent.

      Vote SNP, SNP/SNP or YES, nothing else.

    186. Brian Powell says:


      Although Scotland didn’t vote Tory but got Tory, Labour in Scotland was happy to go along with that for a wee turn in No10.

      They were willing to put Scots through it, have assets removed, have industry destroyed, but keep the votes.

      How stupid are we?

    187. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2 aka the britnat troll lol , all referendum for UK must be advisory as the Parliament is Sovereign not the people, In Scotland as you know the People are Sovereign therefore I presume outcome different? Robert Peffers?

    188. Breeks says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      25 November, 2018 at 12:17 am

      “…..And now we come to Indy Ref 2. If it takes place it is advisory, and for the Scottish parliament, not the UK Parliament to enact in the case of a YES vote. And that is regardless of whether “authorised” or not via a Section 30 Order.

      There’s some pretty obvious conclusions from that.”

      No, no, no, no….

      If you have a referendum, any referendum, even a UK wide referendum, and that referendum illicits a definite resolve amongst the people of Scotland, who are sovereign, then you cannot casually dismiss that referendum as advisory, and equally casually, grant it ascendancy to overrule the Sovereign will of the people. To do so is to accept your subjugation.

      We CANNOT have it both ways. We are Sovereign people in our own land, OR we are subjects in a land ruled by a Sovereign power that isn’t ours. If we are one, we CANNOT be the other.

      That overruling of Scotland’s 62% Remain majority, whether it is sugar coated in terms like “advisory” or “UK-wide”, constitutes UNCONSTITUTIONAL SUBJUGATION and far from seeking out conciliatory compromise, we should be defending our sovereign constitution, OUR sovereignty to the death.

      If we ever want a referendum in Scotland to be non binding, or advisory, then the referendum would need to be predicated with that before it was held, because without that distinction being clear, the default setting for Scotland will always be that the will of the people is sovereign.

      Scotland chose to remain in the EU, and whether Westminster, or Holyrood, like it or not, any other outcome is an act of unconstitutional subjugation.

      “Advisory” is Westminsterspeak for “we’ll decide, not you”. And they know where they can shove it.

      You don’t see them jumping up and down and running to the Supreme Court to declare the 2014 referendum “advisory” do you?

    189. manandboy says:

      The hope of Independence for Scotland has still to overcome several major obstacles.
      1. A divided electorate
      2. Widespread British identity throughout Scotland?.
      3. A completely one-sided Unionist Media aggressively hostile to Independence, to the FM, the Scottish government, the SNP and the Yes Movement.

      But, in addition, bear in mind,
      4. English determination to keep its very lucrative Scottish colony.
      5. England is in a life or death situation over the breakup of The Union. They are desperate. Anything which will maintain the Union is welcome.
      6. England is financially in dire straits, starting with £2 trillion in debt.
      7. Westminster has the ability and the motivation to rig a referendum.

    190. Ken500 says:

      Thanks for that Grouse Beater 3.08am

      Great to see you back again. One of the best writers in Scotland/EU.

      Don’t let the bastards get you down.

      It will not be long now.

    191. Brian Powell says:


      You missed ‘Labour in Scotland willing and actively working to sacrifice Scotland for a chance at being in No10’ from your list.

    192. Exiled says:

      I am an economic exile and this cartoon caused my eyes to fill with tears – saor Caesar!……

    193. HYUFD says:

      Iain Mhor The Queen’s full title is Queen of ‘the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland’. England and Scotland therefore by definition came together to form that United Kingdom. Indeed the first union of the crowns of England and Scotland came about under a Scottish King, James VIth of Scotland and 1st of England after Queen Elizabeth 1st of England died without issue

    194. Golfnut says:

      @ Manandboy

      ‘ Westminster has the ability and the motivation to rig a referendum ‘

      Just one of the reasons why I don’t believe we will see a referendum this side of Dissolution of the Treaty of Union.

      It’s notable I think that the SNP/SG rarely reference a referendum, almost all of that comes from the Britnat side.

      I think Nicolas letter to May regarding a Section 30 order was another of those box ticking exercises, as we know, and probably expected, it was ignored.

      Scotland has 3 major weapons in its armoury.

      Scots Sovereignty, both individual and collective.
      Scots Constitional law
      The Crown

      I may be wrong, but I believe this is the route the SG will take.

    195. Ken500 says:

      May gives concession to everyone, except Scotland. NI wants to stay in. In not out. Gibraltar will be in not out. Out deal will be vetoed. No compromise for Scotland. 26 powers to be taken. Scotland will be Independent. Scotland has to vote for it. GE etc. Not being taken out of the EU against it’s will.

      The EU benefits Scotland more than any UK Union. £Bilions have been taken from Scotland. Secretly and illegally by Westminster. Thatcher. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion costs Scotland dear.

      Scotland still has to pay loan repayments on debt not borrowed or spent in Scotland. £Trident and more on Defence. High Tory tax on Oil & Gas sector. 40% since Jan 2016. When the price had fallen 75% taxed at 62%. Fishing ruined by Westminster policies. Farming CAP money intended for poorer Scottish farmers taken and given to wealthier farmers in the south. Cuts in renewable funding. Hinkley Point a total waste of time and money.

      Scotland exports £30Billion+ (without Oil) £11Billion to the EU. Gets EU/ECB investments in renewables etc. £5Billion? Overseas. The rest to the rest of the UK. Scotland will lose more out of the EU. With a lose of powers.

      The May ‘deal’. It costs more for less rights. 11month visas – using people. They have to leave before they can get 5 year residential rights. Like Jersey. (7 years).

      More red tape, bureaucracy and expense for business.

      May is evel.

    196. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers The Tories and Labour won a comfortable majority of seats in both 1964 and February 1974.

      Of course you have then moved onto an anti England rant again ignoring the fact that while England would be hit by leaving the EU given 44% of English exports go to the EU Scotland will be even more hit by leaving the UK given 61% of Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK. London is of course the UK and one of the global centres of IT and media and on-line communications so even looking past its place as a global centre of financial services it is perfectly fit for the 21st century economy

    197. Colin Alexander says:

      There should be a picture of Nicola Sturgeon waving the Union flag and declaring:

      “I shall save the UK from Brexit ruin”.

    198. Cubby says:

      I see the Britnats trolls are back peddling their lies.

      Britnats lie and they lie all the time about almost anything.

    199. orri says:

      The advisory bullshit is simply that. The AV referendum shows you can create laws that come into effect should certain conditions be met. In that case the referendum result being in favor.

      Also a Section 30 transfers the power to enact legislation relating to reserved matters to Holyrood.

      Given that then it’s entirely possible for Holyrood to enact legislation that says Scotland will be independent if a referendum result supports it.

      That does not mean that Holyrood couldn’t enact legislation that says Scotland will be independent without “permission” of Westminster.

      Arguably all that means is that there’d be a dispute between Holyrood and Westminster over the extent of the latter’s territory. Technically Holyrood might claim command over any MoD assets and personnel in Scotland seeing as they are sworn to the Crown and not Parliament this avoiding the technicality that they’d be in someone’s sovereign territory without consent.

      It doesn’t mean that there’d be an immediate war. Spain and Gibraltar spring to mind. Westminster would quickly accept our independence if there’s any hint of international arbitration that in that case they would lose opening that can of worms.

      So, Section 30 useful to allow Holyrood to change the rUK constitution in a Yes vote to exclude Scotland. Not needed if Westminster is at all rational.

    200. Bobp says:

      Golfnut 10.23am. I sincerely hope Scotland goes down that route, because any indyref2 will 100% be rigged by an accummulation of bbc lies, postal voting, unionist incomer voting, Scotland too wee/ poor/ stupid/ sh**e. Blah blah blah. Indyref2 would just be a rerun of indyref1. WM will hold on to their golden goose by any means possible.

    201. Cubby says:


      I think these two words can be used against Britnats like garlic with vampires.

    202. orri says:

      Obviously someone is ignoring the legal position regarding the Queen’s titles within Scotland. She can call herself what she likes. That includes of Great Britain.

      It also ignores the trend to refer to royal by their Scottish titles when the are in Scotland. In the Queen’s case that’s all she gets avoiding argument about whether she’s really the second of not.

      Note that the hospital doesn’t use a number in its name.

    203. Terence callachan says:

      You say 61% of exports from Scotland go to the rest of the UK but of course a large proportion of that 61% is then exported overseas from England and claimed as an English export.
      Once Scotland is independent we will export more to England then we import and we will keep records and accounts for all Scotland to see ,we will no longer have this nonsense we have at present where England keep all the records but don’t show them to us.
      Enjoy Brexit ,Englands independence ,isolation.
      Be careful where you are there is likely to be trouble ,police maybe even the army on the streets to deal with protests and Brexit rage.

    204. Hamish100 says:


      If folk want to pursue a little Englander attitude to the world so be it. There is no compunction on Scotland to follow the lemmings over a cliff.

      Scotland will negotiate reasonable terms with England in due course. We will not be told what to do.

    205. HYUFD says:

      orri Like there was such international support for Catalonia over Spain? The Spanish government simply sent armed guards to tackle and arrest Catalan nationalists after they held an unofficial referendum and then tried to declare UDI and dared the international community to do anything. The international community did nothing effectively beyond expressions of concern

    206. Kangaroo says:

      EU have endorsed the Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration took 38mins

      Donald Tusk on Twitter apparently. Sorry I got it from eure website so no link as I dont do twatting.

    207. Cubby says:

      Tony Blair on Marr show tells the truth:

      “Me coming in as leader of the Labour Party and then suddenly deciding I’ve become a Conservative”. Perhaps I’ve quoted him out of context but heh ho.

      Marr show full of mad right wing politicians and journalists.

    208. HYUFD says:

      Terence Callachan A minority of Scottish exports may go through England rather than to England but that does not change the fact that in the event of independence those goods would no longer be able automatically to go through England (thus raising costs for Scotland as Scotland is further away from the Continent) and there will be the prospect of tariffs on the 61% of Scottish exports that go to England once England leaves the single market

    209. Bobp says:

      TC 10.51am. Terence I cant really see any trouble down here if this deal goes through. Little englanders talk the talk, but cant walk the walk unlike those nasty french whom they so despise.

    210. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 Brexiteers said the same about negotiations with the EU. I am no Little Englander, I voted Remain and back the Union but you cannot dictate terms to a larger economy as the UK is finding out and as an independent Scotland would find out

    211. PacMan says:

      ben madigan says: 24 November, 2018 at 8:47 pm

      PacMan who said: “There is no doubt that the British establishment is at it’s weakest and it is tempting to strike now but as all know the British establishment works at it’s best when it’s back to the wall so it would be foolhardy to do anything now.”

      Nice recipe for doing nothing – on the one hand . . . and on the other hand . . .

      compare and contrast with Ireland’s Liberator motto (19th Century).

      “England’s difficulty is Ireland’s opportunity”

      Look where Ireland stands now – she has taken her place among the nations of Europe

      Where stands Scotland now?

      Firstly, every countries independence movement is different and our circumstances is nothing like the way Ireland had went. To use parallels is being dishonest.

      I am not suggesting a sort of Scottish Ghost Dance. I am saying while it is tempting to exploit the situation which the British establishment has got itself into now, it is a high risk strategy that IMHO will backfire. You just need to look at Mundell & co. I had no doubt they would ever resign but they tried that card and their bluff was called. Similarly if NS & the SNP were to try something now, their bluff would similarly be called and what exactly would they then do?

      The only strategy at a political level anyway is to exhaust all options and if Brexit does end in Scotland being pulled out of Europe then we go for another indyref.

    212. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      Well, that comparison doesn’t need our Sovereignty, but it’s a bonus on top, as effectively we have told our Parliament what to do, whatever it wants itself. We have said “You are the form of Government we want, now get on with it“.

      My comparison is from the point of view of the UK – and perhaps international outlook. Yes indeed, Scots Law and Sovereignty are different. It’s a win-win.

    213. Terence callachan says:

      To Robert Peffers…
      Well said the SNP politicians do know what they are doing, they did get into it for the right reasons, they want and believe in Scottish independence and have sacrificed a lot for it unlike the politicians in the British nationalist political parties who change their tune so often and are in it for the money.

    214. PacMan says:

      Terence callachan says: 24 November, 2018 at 10:05 pm

      To PacMan…
      Well said , I take your points well, we are on the same side.
      Looking forward to more of your opinions and comments here on WOS

      Thank you for your kind words Terence. I’ve being on this site for a while but there are so many posters who know more than I do and articulate it far better than I ever can. I just post from time to time when I have something on my mind and hopefully I don’t ramble so much 🙂

    215. Ken500 says:

      May the Lame Duck PM. What a shambles. The Tories could not make a bigger mess. Labour are useless. The Tories have caused the worst migration crisis in Europe with the illegal wars. They are sanctioning and starving people. At home and abroad.

      The EU can’t wait to get rid of the Westminster unionists trouble causers.

      They could not even take in 3,000 children. Orphaned by UK/US.

      The Tories are evel liars. Trying to ruin the Scottish/world economy.

    216. Les Wilson says:

      HYUFD says:
      Scotland buys much much more from England than the English buy from us. The stats you quote are very wrong, it is rigged that way of course for the benefit of England, thus it has always been. So GTF.

    217. galamcennalath says:

      Clair Oil …. it’s just one more thing among many since 2013. Virtually all BritNat assertions, promises, threats, offers, etc etc have turned out to be the opposite of their initial state.

      That will give us a huge asset for IndyRef2. No matter what BT2 presents, there will be recent real world events which undermine them.

      Almost makes you ask … what is there left to make their case against Indy?

      There are tactics still available to them, and most involve playing dirty.

      So far, spending vast sums of dark money on their online campaigns has proven both effective and unchallenged, they will try this with IndyRef2. For one thing.

    218. Ken500 says:

      Scotland exports £30Billion+ (without Oil) £11Billion to the EU. + grants and EBC investments. £5Billion? overseas. The rest to the rest of the UK £15Billion. More to the EU and overseas + EU grants and investment. The EU costs Scotland nothing and brings benefits. The UK union costs Scotland £Billions. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion costs Scotland £Billions.

      £Billions have been taken from Scotland illegally and secretly. Thatcher – McCrone Report etc. Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

      Westminster unionists are corrupt, ignorant hypocritical liars. Concessions for everyone, except Scotland. Taken out of the EU against it’s will. 26 Powers to be taken. Totally unaceptable.

      ‘A sad moment and a tragedy’

      The Tories are a bunch of bastards. Lying, nasty hypocrites. An absolute disgrace. A total shambles.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

    219. PacMan says:

      Robert Peffers says: @ 24 November, 2018 at 10:33 pm

      Thank you Robert as well for your kind reply.

      I whole-hardheartedly agree with your comment. Britian as well as most other countries around the world are run by money-men whose reach, directly and indirectly, are in every sphere of society.

      It would be foolish to underestimate them even when they are in disarray. My personal opinion is that major change in a society occurs when a series of circumstances happen that creates a perfect storm which forces the money-men to change their stance due to it being in their best interest. Brexit is this perfect storm and if done correctly then the money-men could well put their support behind indyref2 or at least hedge their bets which would be as good.

      I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory but I’m getting cynical in my old age and sadly see everything being motivated by money. My hope is that, if done properly, an independent Scotland can at least
      put forward a different view that Common-wealth is as beneficial to individuals as personal wealth.

    220. Nana says:

      A few links

      Join Corri Wilson and her guests Indycar Gordon Ross and Nathan Sparling, interim CEO of HIV Scotland for another in depth examination of the week’s news.

      EMBATTLED David Mundell has trousered almost £40,000 in donations from a Singapore-based businessman who hailed the last recession as a “massive wealth-building opportunity in disguise,” the Morning Star can reveal.

      Share it widely

      Thread by @GuitarMoog: “Dear @theresa_may, Thank you for your letter. From the very first sentence to the very last, it is a tissue of revisionism, wilful misdirect […]” #SacktheBrexitDeal

    221. HYUFD says:

      Les Wilson In absolute terms the EU also buys more UK products than the UK buys EU products but not in percentage terms, in percentage terms a far higher percentage of UK goods go to the EU than EU goods go to the UK and in percentage terms a far higher percentage of Scottish goods go to England than English goods go to Scotland

    222. Les Wilson says:

      Just to add to my previous, it is England who would suffer more if Scotland was independent, and if a hard border were in place they would suffer much more. Thousands of English jobs would go.

      Scotland is England’s cash king in so many ways, many of them underhanded and sneaky. These would all cease to exist in an Independent Scotland hence their fanatical need to keep us bound.

      Cry in your milk,as the last nail holding the remants of the English Empire together expires,and Scotland breaks free.

      In the years following Independence much more of the English subterfuge will become clear, and exposed to the world, the things they have done to Scotland. They are pariahs of a magnitude yet to be fully examined.

    223. Nana says:

      Can someone let me know if you can see the second lot of links as I’m getting this message again

      Your comment is awaiting moderation

    224. Ken500 says:

      The rest of the UK is 11 times bigger on the question of trade. Of course there will be a difference,

      Scotland’s imports and export are more balanced than the rest of the UK. Scotland has less of a trade deficit. Scotland is self sufficient and in surplus in food and energy etc.

      The rest of the UK has a large trade deficit and a massive balance of payment deficit. Leading to more debt.

      If Scotland was Independent there would be more trade with the EU and overseas. Less with the rest of the UK because of tariffs. The rest of the UK needs Scotland’s food and fuel exports. Or they will have to get them elsewhere at higher costs and transports cost.

      No wonder May is trying to cling in to Scotland. For food, fuel and energy. Parasites.

    225. Hamish100 says:

      Fuddily duddily – Scotland is the Same distance from the EU before or after brexit. What your implying is England would punish Scotland and here I thought you guys loved us. Xxx

    226. Ken500 says:

      Nana – that often happens for no reason. The comments do appear a bit later.

      Thanks for all your efforts.

      What a sad day for the EU. 40 years of shared history. Really sad.

      The Tory/unionist are a disgrace.

    227. Cubby says:

      Les Wilson@11.36am

      This English Britnat Tory is not here to discuss – just disrupt. He is a flat earther – it matters not one jot what set of facts/evidence you put to him he has his own preferred information set. He carries around a bucket of sand to stick his head in while at the same time humming rule brittannia. He did of course promise to stop posting on Wings but like all Britnats, lies and broken promises, are their stock in trade.

      Clair Ridge.

    228. orri says:

      It’s not just about the goods. It’s also about alternative sources. A lot of the things the UK export to the rUK are only built in the UK because it’s part of the EU.

      In some areas of manufacture they rely on parts imported from the EU. If tariffs are introduced that will increase both the cost of production and the cost to the EU consumer. At that point it might be more beneficial to move production to the EU unless staff costs can be drastically cut. Or Sterling depreciated enough to keep Euro costs as they are now.

      It’s all a matter of what the goods are. For instance in the unlikely event of Wales becoming independent there’s places in England that would either have to continue buying water or go thirsty.g

      Scotland sells food and energy to England that England can’t do without. Yes they could go elsewhere. Or they could swallow their pride. All this balance of trade does is raise the question of how much the rUK would need trade with Scotland to continue. And who benefits more from that trade.

    229. Andy-B says:

      Well all I can say is that the Scottish Politics show on the BBC on Sunday, should be renamed the Scottish Tory show, as it was all about them.

      No change then.

    230. Ken500 says:

      Lying trolls once again.

      The rest of the UK manufacturers and produces less. Relying on financial services. They will evaporate on Brexit. Financial firms moving to EU for access to markets. The EU negotiated world deals.

      The Tory/unionists are a disgrace. Sanctioning and starving people. Illegal wars etc costing £Billions.causing mass migration.

      Sky MSM spinning lies.

    231. Nana says:

      Thanks Ken, I thought I’d managed to fix the problem by removing the first letter for a video link which I missed first time. Stu will sort it and hopefully I won’t get hammered 🙂
      Check back later for the missing links

      Scots Tory in £435,000 Brexit ‘dark money’ row facing questions by MPs

      Will not archive

      Parliament seizes cache of Facebook internal papers

    232. Dr Jim says:

      Politics Scotland with Gordon Brewer filled with Tories congratualting themselves on destroying the country and the BBC congratulating hem for doing it with grit and determination which apparently we all have to admire Theresa May for

      Then we have two of the usual suspects Herald newstwats who admire Thersa May enormously for her tenacity and determination to see this load of crap through and no matter what happens that nobody knows about because the Tories have done what they usually do and kicked the problem further down the road till the end of time the Herald newstwats are totally convinced as is the BBC that the SNP would be much worse and they know this for a fact because they just do

      No Scottish government representatives who actually do know what’s going on were invited on to the programme

      Well because they’re Baad aren’t they

    233. HYUFD says:

      Les Wilson 61% of Scottish exports depend on the English market and all the Scottish jobs which go with it. Scotland threatening England, a far larger economy, is even more absurd than the UK trying to threaten the EU, also a bigger economy than it is.

    234. Hamish100 says:

      Fuddily duddily

      Should have added that if Scotland remains in EU we have a trade deal with England. Would England pick a fight with the EU? Brexit has neutered Englands negotiations plus we have the, Oil, agriculture, renewables. Tourism, nuclear weapons, its people.
      Whas likes us!

    235. Breeks says:

      Brexit Deal signed, but Lithuanian Prime Minister reveals EU now dreads an further UK referendum, a UK General Election, Theresa May’s resignation, House of Commons rejecting Deal, or UK Government collapsing in disarray. But no worries, all the acres of uncertainty and unknown variables wrapped up and parcelled and delivered to 10 Dining St.

      So let’s recap, within minutes of Brexit Referendum result, the EU was referring to its Constitutional framework to address the issues raised by Brexit, and have stuck to their clear agenda throughout, having compromised essentially on absolutely nothing. They have ignored petulant threats of war, financial default, and peurile insults as toe curling as Farage or the statue of May built upon the cliffs of Dover. The EU has pigeon holed its various uncertainties which are entirely unpredictable due to the fractious incompetence of the UK government which didn’t even seem to know what it wanted, but has stood rock solid and immovable in defence of Members Interests over Ireland, and essentially bound the UK to respecting a formal Treaty of International Law.

      Then we have Scotland. “Aye, lets just wait and see”.
      Constitutional Framework? What Constitutional Framework?
      Compromise? Hell YES! There is NOTHING we won’t compromise on.
      Insults and stitch ups? Turn the other cheek… unless the insult and mischief comes from one of us.
      Stand up for EU members Interests? No chance. We won’t even stand up for our own.
      Bound to respect an International Treaty? We’re not even acknowledged as our own Interlocutor.
      Acres of uncertainty and unknown variables hung like a noose on EVERY Pro-Independence initiave.

      But don’t worry, everything is fine coz Nicola is pure dead brilliant so she is. Just wait and see….

    236. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 The instance Scotland votes for independence it goes from being a partner in the Union to a foreign country and England will treat it with exactly the same way as the EU has treated the UK. Once out of the club there is no need to deal with the party leaving the Union in any way other than that which best serves the remaining members interests

    237. HYUFD says:

      Ken500 Interesting too see nats now opposing ‘mass migration.’ Looks like the Scottish Nationalists are not so different from the English Nationalists after all!

    238. orri says:

      Either England comes to trade terms or England can starve, ration water and cry itself to sleep in the dark due to, if it’s lucky, needing it’s meagre energy capacity to keep its industry running.

      Or England can impose a military dictatorship in a Scotland that has voted for independence.

    239. HYUFD says:

      Hamish100 If an independent Scotland stays in the EU it only gets the same trade deal with the EU the EU has with the UK ie still out of the single market with England. If the UK ends up with No Deal with the EU that also means Scotland if independent would end up with no Deal with England and hence with tariffs on Scottish exports to England, Scotland’s largest market

    240. galamcennalath says:

      I see at the EU summit they are making clear that the Withdrawal Agreement is the one on offer and isn’t to be tweaked. Fair enough given the ridiculous UK red lines and inability to actually decide what it wanted.

      Of course the notion will be promoted that it is this WA or none which is the choice before MPs. That isn’t true, but when did the truth act as an impediment to Tories!?

      Anyways, May’s WA Bill may pass WM if Tories decide to back her and some Labour MPs rebel.

      If it does pass, the IndyRef2 must follow. It’s a blind Brexit erring to hard. That is clear Andrew unacceptable.

      However, if it doesn’t pass, then May will probably resign and one way or another MPs will stop a no deal Brexit, IMO. General election? There really should be.

    241. Breeks says:

      Final thought… Michel Barnier might be out of a job now.

      Maybe we should crown fund a wee pickle money and see if he negotiates for good causes freelance.

    242. Sinky says:

      Politics Scotland has former Tory spin doctor to comment on Tory fisheries sell out then later no commentator to inform viewers that SNP has consistently tried to amend CFP but UK Government refused to negotiate this with EU

    243. schrodingers cat says:

      dont usually post links to unionist newspapers, but this is an example of scottish exports to england.

      why cant scottish salmon fly from prestwick?

    244. orri says:

      An independent Scotland would join EFTA or the EU accepting the requirements of either rather than spending months throwing tantrums at not getting a better deal than the preferential one it already has.

      An independent Scotland would implement the full restrictions on Freedom of Movement so as not to be overloaded with unemployed rEU citizens just as the rest of the EU does. Rather not doing so and allowing resentment to fester for political gain.

      We’d probably implement ID cards just like the majority of the free world rather than insist on a situation that only works by imposing some kind of secure compound arrangement on the entire state.

    245. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      There are no “remaining members interests” when a union/treaty is dissolved, because there is NOTHING remaining to be a member of.

    246. HYUFD says:

      Brian Doonthetoon Inevitably if a Union is dissolved by a smaller member, as would be the case if Scotland left the UK, or a smaller member leaves the Union, as is the case with the UK leaving the EU, if the smaller departing member wants a trade deal minimising tariffs on its exports to the larger member it will have to largely accept the terms set by the larger member it was formally in a Union with

    247. Robert Peffers says:

      @PacMan says: 25 November, 2018 at 11:33 am:

      ” … I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory but I’m getting cynical in my old age and sadly see everything being motivated by money.”

      No, Pacman, it most certainly is not a conspiracy theory it is stone cold fact. I mentioned, “The Remembrancer”, a little up-thread and that is an outward sign of the actual facts. The best place to hide something is in plain sight where it becomes an unimportant part of the scenery. So it is with, “The Remembrancer”.

      This person sits in the Commons and in the Lords but is never mentioned in reports. This goes back to the very birth of the Westminster Parliament. He sits in an elevated position close by the Speaker of the House of Commons. The elevated location is to show his importance is above that of the Speaker:-

      How many members of the public even know this unelected person sits in a position of authority in the parliament of the United Kingdom? Bear in mind that even Her Majesty the Queen of England is only legally allowed into the Commons by invite from the Commons but the Remembrancer of the City of London sits there by elected Speaker of The House who is not only an elected MP but is elected to the post by the MPs.

      He has a budget of Millions and a large staff at his command – now just what are that large staff employed to do? Remember he is not employed by the Government but by, “The City of London”, (a.k.a. The London Financial Sector).

    248. marsfries says:

      The EU27 have ratified the deal. They have also been very clear that Westminster can forget about renegotiating the deal as it stands, so May, the Brexiteers and Jeremy Corbyn alike can forget about dragging the EU27 back to the negotiating table. Quite right, too. I predict a no deal after a lot of hemming and hawing from the English government.

    249. Referendum1707 says:

      Dr Jim 11.56

      You don’t have to watch these programmes to know what they’ll be like, so why do you watch them in the first place?

      If masochistic Yessers could try restraining themselves from tuning in to them their viewing figures would probably tank by another 20+%. Not that we’d ever hear about that of course, but they’d know that it was further confirmation that their propaganda isn’t working as well as it needs to. (for them)

    250. Bob Mack says:

      Trade deals with England ? I’m sure that given England is a country who has to import half of its total food supply that the English public would sit and happily starve to get back at Scotland. Na me neither. Food is one of the main controls of a population. No food gives you riots. Want to talk energy supplies as well ?

      Sitting in the dark with no food is not I think on the wish list of the average Englander.

    251. Robert Peffers says:

      @HYUFD says: 25 November, 2018 at 10:27 am:

      ” … The Tories and Labour won a comfortable majority of seats in both 1964 and February 1974″

      Of course they did, HYUFD. They are, “The Establishment”, and together they form a supposed two party legislature = similar to the same type of arrangement of the USA. It matters not which of those two parties win the election for both are wedded to the wealthy Financial Sectors of the, “City of London”.

      ” … Of course you have then moved onto an anti England rant again”

      Oh! No I have not. I’ve never been anti-English not indeed anti-any other foreign peoples in the World. I’m anti-the Westminster Establishment and have every sympathy with the people of all three countries of the Kingdom of England.

      You are simply following the diktat of your leaders in the unionist cabal that is The Westminster Establishment and far extends beyond the Houses of Parliament.

      ” … ignoring the fact that while England would be hit by leaving the EU given 44% of English exports go to the EU”

      No, I’m not ignoring anything, HYUFD, You are.

      In the first place you show your true colours with that reference to, “England”, and that 44% you claim to be English Exports. How much of those, “English”, exports are Scottish, Welsh and N.I. exports that are just passing through England on their way to the Chunnel or cross Channel shipping or via English Airports?

      How much of it is raw materials or produce that came to England from the rest of the UK to be processed or even just packaged?

      The United Kingdom Government’s accountancy is bent and if adopted by a private firm would result in criminal prosecutions.

      For example 70% of The UK Gin is produced in Scotland and 100% of the UK’s Whisky is Produced in Scotland and England has no parliament so claims the figures for the UK as English.

      Just as their oft claimed bullshit that, “English Taxpayer’s”. subsidise Scotland. This is total crap for the Scottish average per capita GDP is normally higher than both that of England and of the United Kingdom as a whole. That means of all four United Kingdom countries the average per capita GDP of a Scot is the highest in the United Kingdom. a.k.a. We are the highest taxed per capita in the UK and thus we subsidise every other country in the UK.

      It isn’t English tax payer’s money it is only a percentage of the per capita tax that the Westminster treasury extracts from Scotland. And that is without the oil & gas revenue that id NOT credited as Scottish but as being from, “United Kingdom Extra-Regio Territory”, and thus is wrongly assumed to be, “English Tax Payer’s Money”, but is United Kingdom Tax Payers Money and we only get a rather smaller percentage of it back than we pay in.

      Why you persist in your pack of lies is beyond belief and please stop conflating opposition to Westminster misrule as being anti-England. Westminster is the United KINGDOM, Parliament. England, (either counter or kingdom), has no parliament. It is thus not possible for anti-Westminster Establishment to be ant0England – unless, of course, the mindset of the person conflates England as the United Kingdom.

    252. yesindyref2 says:

      HIFUD “In absolute terms the EU also buys more UK products than the UK buys EU products but not in percentage terms

      As always you talk shite. The EU SELLS more to the UK than the UK exports to the EU, teh UK runs a heavy NEGATIVE balance of trade, with only Scotland and Northern Ireland of the “regions” having a positive balance of trade.

      The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2017, UK exports tothe EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were£341 billion (53% of all UK imports).

      Jings, surely you embarrass even yourself with your total wrongness?

    253. HYUFD says:

      Bob Mack Most English food and energy does not come from Scotland but from England, Wales or elsewhere in the world.

      Most Scottish exports do go to England

    254. HYUFD says:

      Robert Peffers Corbyn Labour is far more anti financial services than the SNP, Salmond even worked for RBS.

      List of UK countries by GDP per capita England £26,160; Scotland £23,685; Northern Ireland £18,584; Wales £18,002

    255. HYUFD says:

      Yesindyref2 Thankyou for confirming my post. As I said EU exports to the UK of £341 billion are more than UK exports to the EU of £274 billion. However percentage wise EU exports to the UK of 16% of total EU exports are less than UK exports to the EU of 44% of total UK exports

    256. Cubby says:

      Hey flat earther why don’t you just pissof like you promised. Your a lying Britnat Tory thief.


    257. yesindyref2 says:

      What you said dickwad was “In absolute terms the EU also buys more UK products than the UK buys EU products

      that is totally the opposite of:

      As I said EU exports to the UK of £341 billion are more than UK exports to the EU of £274 billion.

      Can’t you even understand your own postings? Or can’t you stop lying, even to yourself?

      Dover House – can we get someone more intelligent please, you insult us with your current offering.

    258. Cubby says:


      Another excellent post. That’s why I don’t bother putting any points to him. He is just a total plonker who pitches up here just to disrupt with all his lies and misinformation. I’ve seen him post the same stuff after it has been shown to him it is wrong.

      He has proven to me he is not genuine – just another lying Britnat troll of the worst kind – an English Tory who thinks he owns Scotland.


    259. yesindyref2 says:

      When he came on Wings he said he wanted to put the case for the Union, which would have been interesting to see what he’s got, but instead of that he’s only interested in spreading disinformation, misisnformation and outright lies. I wouldn’t mind if he was a decent Unionist, he’s actually a flag troll Unionist instead!

    260. Bob Mack says:


      To be concise, you either don’t know the actual figures or you are simply a liar.

    261. HYUFD says:

      Bob Mack Show me the figures then that say that England gets most of its food and energy from Scotland? You can’t as they don’t.

      Scotland does however send 61% of its exports to the rest of the UK

    262. Mogabee says:

      Two old friends, both male over 60 and strongly opposed to first indyref have now told us they will vote yes next time.

      I am gobsmacked, and know for sure we truly are living in changing times!

      As for those who STILL think they can ‘persuade’ yessers to vote no by misinformation are living in their own wee world. Come on, join us to rebuild this country and make it something to be proud of ALL the time and not just when singing Flower of Scotland… 😀

    263. Colin Alexander says:

      The Scot Govt / Yes campaign never called Indyref as void when Devo-max was put back on the table after being ruled out, and despite the clear bias of BBC etc because:

      1. Their own canvassing probably showed they had failed to get enough support for YES, so the polls weren’t rigged. It was the campaign that was rigged by the SNP and UK Govt.

      2. The SNP pretended they were campaigning for indy, when Devo-Max was what the SNP offered in indyref1.

      The SNP campaigned for indy (lite). Only some of the people on here would regard an economy and currency run for the benefit of England, but including Scotland, would be real independence.

      In indyref1 the the Scot Govt were working on the premise of continuing UK-wide shared institutions, not only currency / economic policy.

      I believe Nicola Sturgeon / and many in the SNP still see- and also want – Scotland’s future as part of the UK or under UK economic / political union for many years to come.

      That is why NS is so desperate to save the UK from Brexit. It’s not a bluff or to look good for No voters, it really is about saving the UK including Scotland from Brexit.

      I’m not claiming NS is an all out unionist. But, I do believe she and many in the SNP have settled for a goal of home rule or devo-max.

      Any indyref, if ever held again, will be about putting pressure on Westminster to increase devolution.

      I’m not saying all the SNP have completely sold out to the Union. But many have become very cosy and settled as administrators of devolution and what bothers me most is that they aren’t being honest about that.

    264. yesindyref2 says:

      I see another of the wad has arrived.

    265. Cubby says:

      Bob Mack @3.40 pm

      He is just another lying Britnat.

      Talking about lying Britnats I see coco is back with his stunning analysis of all things SNP.

    266. Colin Alexander says:

      Unlike some others today, I don’t think certain posters are unionist trolls pretending to be indy supporters.

      I think there is a lot of ego involved, and they just can’t take it when anyone has a different point of view, and so they resort to abuse like big weans.

      Everyone else is labelled a troll or unionist if they don’t agree with them.

    267. yesindyref2 says:

      You don’t even agree with yourself.

      When you first came on Wings it was to push the idea we should have a referendum on Devo-Max not Independence, now you’re falsely claiming that’s what the SNP are after, Devo-Max.

      I am an elephant, I do not forget.

    268. Colin Alexander says:


      I did think the Scot Govt should have kept Devo-Max as an option for the vote. (With a legal agreement of what Devo-Max meant).

      I also pushed the idea of a confederation – NOT a federal UK. Where the Scottish Parliament, not Westminster exercises Scotland’s sovereignty as equal partners with rUK.

      I now accept, whilst theoretically a good idea, as was indy-lite theoretically a good idea. The reality is, it would be unacceptable and unworkable due to the UK’s ideology of political domination over Scotland.

      For the same reason, I think full indy is now the only way forward. Devo-Max or Indy-lite with shared currency are now unworkable.

    269. yesindyref2 says:

      Fair enough. But you come across a bit wacko with your attacks on the SNP.

      After Indy Ref 1, I went into how the SNP had fundamentalists “Indy or nothing”, and pragmatists “We’ll take what we can get and build on it”. What I was told and accepted, was that most in the SNP were both.

      And the thing is that while working for Independence, the SNP and particularly the FM are right to always keep the door open for new powers, perhaps immigration being a recent demand. The thing is, it ain’t no secret that the more powers Scotland gets, the less it works for the UK.

      So, it’s a slower path to Indy, but a more certain one.

      But yeah, me too, I want Indy this time, there’ll not be such a good chance for years. And I strongly suspect Sturgeon & Co fully realise that.

    270. wull says:

      Well said Grouse Beater. Everyone of good will, who consults this site with a right intention, should read your article. So I post the reference again here, for those who missed it:

      Grouse Beater says:
      25 November, 2018 at 3:08 am
      Lot of flag waving going on, Chris. Very unhealthy!

      You’re essential weekend reading:

      Taming Power – and the SNP:

    271. Bob Mack says:

      Hi fud, let’s do this slowly. England already imports 50% of its total food supply. That means it is 50% short. You follow?
      The EU provides for 30% of that shortfall, whilst the rest of the world makes up the remaining 20%.

      Concentrate now. That means if no deal then food available for us is only 70% of that required to feed the populous.
      Got it?

    272. HYUFD says:

      Bob Mack Even under No Deal there would not be an end to food imports, though there may be more checks on imports and some tariffs which makes food imports more expensive without a trade deal

    273. Cactus says:

      Have another close-up gander ye Wingers..:

      Internationally independent Scotland will be excellent, Yes!!

      Dinnae listen tae the grumpy people, like.

      Jist whistle while ye work Monday 925 people:


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