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Wings Over Scotland


A matter of clarity

Posted on November 08, 2013 by

Here’s Johann Lamont at FMQs yesterday:

“Let me repeat: the United Kingdom Government has made it clear that defence contracts will not be let outside the United Kingdom and therefore will not come to Scotland if Scotland were outside the United Kingdom.”

And here’s the UK’s Defence Secretary Philip Hammond speaking on Channel 4 News the previous night. See how clear you think he makes that.

Hammond said several interesting things in the short interview (including the implication that in the event of independence the Type 26 contract might be used as a bargaining chip in negotiations with regard to Trident), but what he categorically and very deliberately refused to say was that Portsmouth would have its shipbuilding capabilities restored if Scotland voted Yes. And if it doesn’t, then the Type 26s WILL be built abroad, whether on the Clyde or elsewhere.

Maybe Johann needs to listen a little bit closer.

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102 to “A matter of clarity”

  1. themadmurph says:

    All the lies being spouted about article 346 is infuriating!  They know they are lying. They also know they will not be pulled up about the lies and so they can spout their nonsense to the less well informed.  Thank god for the t’internet, Wings (and others). Roll on a YES vote when people start to realise what the self serving scum are up to!

  2. themadmurph says:

    Apart from anything else, they will have no choice but to build future ships in a foreign country (after we win).  It may not be Scotland, but it almost definitely will not be in the former UK (fUK)!

  3. Lindsey Smith says:

    Sounds a lot like ostrich with head in sand, Hammond was avoiding the glaring question of post referendum naval contracts.  There was NO clear intent to remove the contract from Govan. call me suspicious, but I wonder what nefarious plan they have hatched, that they are not frothing at the mouth over the possibility that independent Scotland will be building “their” navy.

  4. tartanfever says:

    Yet another memo JoLa didn’t receive.
     
    Glad you included the Dineage interview afterwards. Now there’s an interesting point of view.
     
    Twitter all day – ‘Yes we’ve lost jobs because of the independence referendum.’
     
    CH4 news – ‘It’s an economic decision.’
     
    Make your mind up.

  5. Albert Herring says:

    I’m not sure that building “global combat ships” for the Royal Navy is entirely ethical. 

  6. Jimsie says:

    JoLa is not exactly ” in touch” is she?. By the way… Any Questions will be worth a listen on R4 tonight. According to Jonathan Dimbleby it is in Beersdin !

  7. Jingly Jangly says:

    Rab C tried to make his first post yesterday he has made a fast transition from being a luddite to a lurker and now hopefully a poster  but it got stuck in a moderation queue and I did not see it surface so I will repeat the jist of what he said,
    “In the event of a YES vote, Scotland will be dissolving Great Britain, the United Kingdom will remain, therefore they will not be building ships outside of the United Kingdom”
    Remember the United Kingdom was formed in 1603 with the union of crowns, Great Britiain was formed in 1707 with the union of parliaments. Pedantic maybe but probably that’s why Hammond is saying what he is.
     

  8. brian Powell says:

    Weasel words from Lamont. Extraordinary to hear a Labour politician so desperate to carry the cause of Tory Together Party right to the heart of her own constituency.

    Hammond was convinced there would be a No vote; Michael Gove and Cameron said the No vote would be a victory for them. Alistair Darling is the darling of the Tory voters, as shown in the Panelbase poll.
     
    But Lamont is in good company, as it turns out two of the Trade Union Conveners, from Unite and GMB, at Scotstoun where jobs loses have occurred,  were singing the praises of Better Together and how Independence would harm jobs, back in June.

    newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/8296-trade-union-convenors-at-job-loss-shipyard-contributed-to-tory-led-campaign-group

  9. JasonF says:

    The Conservative minister on Question Time last night was effectively saying there was no guarantee of Scotland getting the order even if there’s a No vote.
     
    Others have said similar already, including possibly Hammond.
     
    (The video above is from Wednesday)

  10. Craig P says:

    Beersdin? Is that in East Dumbartonsheer?

  11. DMyers says:

    We don’t think JoLa lets such trifling matters as the truth get in the way of a good ‘debate’, do we? 😉

  12. Lanarkist says:

    They should all just sit down in the same room and get their stories straight. Party by party they cannot maintain the same lies but when they get together the inconsistencies are magnified.

    their game of Entrophy nears collapse.

    Wait until the WP is published and the campaign proper begins in earnest. I do not believe BT will be able to maintain their unity, all hell will break loose when they cut and run for the lifeboats,( built in Scotland of course), and try to salvage their position at the much diminished feeding trough.

    What fun.

  13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The Conservative minister on Question Time last night was effectively saying there was no guarantee of Scotland getting the order even if there’s a No vote.”

    Indeed. But he was also very careful not to say that it definitely WOULDN’T.

    “(The video above is from Wednesday)”

    Amended.

  14. velofello says:

    Is there nothing else happening in the world that this subject has to be debated ad nauseum? A debate over three ships! As stated elsewhere Norway built just in excess of 100 vessels in 2012, and 200 the year before. An independent Scotland will require to build a navy, ships, bases and personnel, I read that as opportunity.
     
     
    The fearmongers will try and talk up the costs and our exposure to risks from whatever country whilst the Scottish navy is developed. Any more exposed than the current lack of the UK naval presence? Greater financial risks than aircraft carrier costs doubling? As for these three frigates being a negotiating chip versus Trident,and all this guff about a UK principle of not building warships in a foreign country, I’m against having foreign nuclear armed submarines foreign owned and manned residing in Scotland, in principle.
     
    A week or so past we had a real crisis on our hands, Grangemouth.

  15. Embradon says:

    Interesting comment on newsnicht re finding a new base for Trident.

    The existing base was built to lower planning and safety standards than would have to be applied now in England or Wales.

    Never mind – its only Scotland – small mischief if they fry.

  16. rabkae says:

    Mr Speaker, the Secretary of State is being somewhat economical with the truth, for it is public knowledge that since 2011 Her Majesty’s Government, together with BAe Systems, have been in discussion with the Ministry of Defence of the Government of India regarding the Type 26 Global Combat Ship, specifically with regard to the feesability of India’s privately owned defence shipyards being involved in both the design and the construction of such vessels. Would the Secretary of State care to comment as to the likely effect upon the preferred location for the construction of the Type 26 Global Combat Ship in the event of Scottish Independence?
    http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/uk-proposes-building-future-warships-with-india-111081100061_1.html

  17. Illy says:

    I wonder if the trident facilities were built to American standards…
    They’re American subs after all.

  18. Davy says:

    It looks like Lamont & Ian Davidson are so far out of the loop they can’t even see the first bend, does Davidson’s Scottish select committee not even get a heads up from Westminster about what is happening to the ship building industry, what a surprise.
    Even with the BBC & MSM doing everything they can to cover our Scottish unionist vile threats of blackmail to the workers of our shipbuilding industry, it does’nt appear to be working. People can see what they are doing and people will not forget what they have tried to do.
     
    Note: Did anyone notice the state Ruth Davidson was in during FM’s questions yesterday, she appeared to being suffering from extreme nerves or was ill ???

  19. Murray McCallum says:

    Simon Pia himself said on Newsnicht several weeks ago that Johann Lamont is not good with figures. A trait she shares with Alistair Darling.
     
    Quite frightening that a future Labour government may once again vastly escalate defence contract spending through incompetent decision making, e.g. re-opening a closed shipyard to build some of the most complex vessels on the planet!

  20. Ananurhing says:

    “If circumstances were to change in the future, and this applies to a whole range of things, not just around Scotland, if circumstances were to change in the future, we would have to deal  with these changed circumstances.”
     
    To me he’s saying, just because things happened a certain way in the past, doesn’t mean that’s the way it’ll pan out in the future. We have to deal with changed circumstances.
    The answer being joint procurement, which avoids putting contracts out to tender. Could Hammond be agreeing with Nicola there?

  21. faolie says:

    Of course they’re going to be built on the Clyde for God’s sake. Apart from the bleedin’ obvious (which Hammond pretty much acknowledged in the interview) that there are no shipyards left in England, after the referendum there will be no need for all this fear and threats because we’ll all just get down to business.
     
    Example: witness Hammond’s gushing over working with a friendly foreign country that’s 12,000 miles away on joint development of the Type 26: goo.gl/H9bL9o

  22. Ananurhing says:

    Davy,
     
    “Note: Did anyone notice the state Ruth Davidson was in during FM’s questions yesterday, she appeared to being suffering from extreme nerves or was ill ???”
     
    I thought she looked quite intimidated. Lamont was outclassed. And Wullie was just, well…..flacid.
    Nicola was really impressive.
     

  23. faolie says:

    Sorry, link didn’t work: http://goo.gl/H9bL9o

  24. Dcanmore says:

    the UK Government are trying to keep all options open to them, typically ham-fistedly though, but it’s clear to see that they’re reserving the decision to either build the Type-26 in Scotland, build them outside Scotland or not build them at all.
     
    Johann Lamont is laughably awful.

  25. Illy says:

    @Ananurhing:
    I heard: “I really don’t want to talk about what will happen if Scotland votes Yes.  I want to maintain as much Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt about that situation as I can.  Mostly so that those damn Scots get as scared of it as I am.”

  26. balgayboy says:

    Reckon the westminster bargaining chip is that if Scotland votes YES you guy’s will still get the T26 build contracts but only if Scotland agrees to keep the Trident for an agreed extended time.
    Considering their claim that a NO vote is a giving according to BT it’s seems kinda strange that Westminster is already hedging their bets!
    The people of Scotland do not need their MOD contracts and certainly not their WMD’s parked in our country.

  27. Indy_Scot says:

    I am not convinced that the bullyboy blackmail threats by Ian Davidson and Labour along the lines of you better vote no or we will take our toys back, goes down well with the Scottish public, and I am sure that the workers of the shipyards will take kindly to being used as a bribe against the democratic right of Scotland voting on the future of our children.
     
    There is no place for this kind of blackmail politics in Scotland. If anyone needed just one reason to vote Yes next year, then this is it.

  28. Illy says:

    I am still wondering why we would talk to Wesminster about Washinton’s nuclear submarines?
    Is it just because Wesminster foots the bill for them?

  29. desimond says:

    An interesting aspect is that England have suddenly woken up to the Referendum…okay it took job losses to ease them from their slumber but awake they now are and that includes their MPs and media. 

    Now while this might see a lot of hand-wringing and complaints about ungrateful Scots, it also presents our arguers with valuable airtime away from the sleekitness of Pacific Quay and the Cringe Crews within Scottish Media.
     
    I dare say English media will have its bias too but i think in pushing its own agenda, it wont be as forthright as hiding the YES campaigns arguments as we see from the Scottish Media up here…which can only be good for the voting watching public.
     
    Jeez…now i have to start watching English news again!

  30. Dcanmore says:

    Trident will be kept in Scotland for at least ten years after 2014. It will then be either decommissioned without replacement or new facilities will readied for warhead storage somewhere near the vicinity of a new submarine dock in England or Wales. That will cost £tens of billiions on top of the new submarine contract and cost of service life.
     
    I think the UK government are trying to put themselves into a decent bargaining position over shipbuilding and Trident. But really all the aces are still with the Scottish Government. What is corrosively eating away at SLAB is they are out of the loop and that is destroying them from within in each passing day because their voice is becoming more and more distant to the average Scot as they continue to lose their grip on reality.

  31. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Hammond may have been unimpressive, the female MP was pathetic and completely exposed. 

  32. KOF says:

    @Jinglyjangly  10:05
    Poppycock! The union of the crowns did not mean a united kingdom, the kingdoms of Scots and the kingdom of England just had the same person as head of state. The UK of Great Britain was only formed by the acts of union of 1706/07.
     
    When Scotland becomes independent, there will be no UK of GB any more. There will be the kingdom of Scotland, the Kingdom of England and whatever NI is.
     
    No ships will be built in the UK, because there will be no UK.

  33. Les Wilson says:

    There is absolutely no doubt that the UK is setting up a chess game, which they hope will give them an advantage in any negotiations that will follow a YES vote. It is a crafty move when they have the backing of Labour to boot. What would put the cat amongst the pigeons would be if the SG guarantee a good order for the yards for the Scottish Navy.That may mitigate the threat of any manipulation of the type 26 as a political pawn.

    The caveat would be just how can SG know what they would get as part of the UK navy fleet ? It would have to be examined by experts and deal on the most likely scenario as Westminster will not speak of it prior.

    As BAE are a profit making company they may see the advantage of working with the Scottish Government to market our shipbuilding abilities in a way that the UK has not fully managed to do.

    If such a case was possible, then it may be in BAE’s interest to award the T26 to Scottish yards in recognition of such a partnership they may see that as a win win for them. Notwithstanding that the Clyde, as all accept, is the best place for them to be built anyway.

    I suspect there will be a whole department working away looking at how they can improve their hand, just in case the vote goes against them. Subsequently we can expect much more of them positioning themselves just in case, they would be stupid not to do this.

    Another issue which has came to light in some UK sources is that there is now a hint of using the T26 as a bargaining chip against the removal of Trident, I am not sure this would work as the SG could simply turn the table and say that if there are no T26 for the Clyde, then Trident will require to be removed much quicker than the UK would want, ie a LOT quicker.

    Perhaps that may secure the T26 but we also need to work with BAE in trying to get more Naval ship building but possibly also with others to diversify the building of all kinds of shipping for all kinds of purpose’s. 

  34. Muscleguy says:

    @balgayboy
    Indeed, that is a good point. Contingency planning is good government but only if the contigencies being planned for are real and plausible (not for a zombie apocalypse for eg). So effectively, after being pushed, he has admitted that Westminster thinks Independence is entirely possible. In contrast to BT’s pubic pronouncements every time a poll comes out.
     
    Deer looking into the headliights would be my assessment.
     
    How are things up the hill? <Waves from the Ferry>

  35. Papadocx says:

    Watch the political answers, that’s the clue!
    YES means yes (most of the time?)
    NO means no (most of the time?)
    Could, should, might, doubtful, not done before, unlikely, possible, etc.  means depending on how things are going. It is on the table! BT politicians never say yes or no. don’t want to be a hostage to fortune, always leave an escape route.

  36. tartanfever says:

    The question I haven’t heard put to unionist politicians or indeed to BAE is if there is a Yes vote and the Westminster politicians stick to their plan of ‘nothing built on foreign soil’ then haven’t BAE just made the most awful economic blunder by closing the Portsmouth yard ? 
     
    To close Portsmouth now only to have to re-open it in a years time when the workforce has disappeared and the yard needs a complete re-fit to be able to build these ships at a cost of tens of millions is surely nothing more than a ransom note to Westminster.
     
    Effectively BAE are saying ‘If you want to build ships on home soil, you’ll have to stump up the cash to re-fit Portsmouth’
     
    It could also be argued that BAE are dictating defence policy to Westminster.

  37. ronnie anderson says:

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  38. Cankert Callan says:

    Can anyone else see a future where we vote for independence. Westminster tries to bribe us into keeping trident for the type 26 contract and we tell them to f**k off, we have our own ships to build, yet end up with the contract anyway? Logistically isn’t it easier having these ships built four hundred miles away from London instead of thousands of miles in India or Australia?

  39. call me dave says:

    There is a meeting of planners and boffins this weekend discussing defence in Scotland / rUK in Glasgow.  Whether the T26 frigates to be built on the Clyde are for the UK or the SDF will depend on the referendum vote.  But some will be built.
     
    If it’s YES then the rUK will probably still build them on the Clyde but try and get leverage by using the contract as a bargaining chip against our bargaining chip Trident.
     
    There is talk that the quick transfer of Trident down South wont be possible.   Where can it go?  Huge expense for the rUK , seat at the top table and all that jazz.  Building in and around a populated area wont be permitted (I know, I know…)  But Trident in the initial years of independence must be seen as a big player in the game.  

    So many problems and opportunities.  But ‘The First Eck’ has played a good hand so far. Sturgeon and Swinney will be at BAE today not just to find out what BAE are going to do but to throw into the mix what might be in an independent Scotland.

    Scotland has emerged in a far stronger position since the announcement than it was before. All to play for.

  40. call me dave says:

    Cankert Callan
    Gee whizzy ! Two posts suggesting a similar theme.

  41. jim mitchell says:

    JL should be more care about lies, look at the state it’s got the Scotsman into!

  42. Richard McHarg says:

    It would make sense for the Scottish Government to get ahead of the game, approach BAE and discuss plans for building ships for a Scottish Navy. 
    They may already have done so.
    The shipbuilders would then know that there is a Plan B, and it would destroy the Unionist threats, while piling huge pressure on them re getting their ships built elsewhere, thus proving that a UK or a fUK navy building programme isn’t the only game in town.
    Things may not be certain, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t bring a little more certainty to the argument.

  43. call me dave says:

    Les Wilson & Dcanmore
    Just saw your posts too.
    Seems we are all thinking in a similar way. TRIDENT .
    😉

  44. desimond says:

    @tartanfever 
    Indeed, was clear when the Man from  BAE said “This is a business decision”. If it was all down to a YES or NO vote then the British Goverment could readily afford 1 year of subsidy to keep Portsmouth afloat until Sept 2014 and really play the political pressure card (as well as picking up the Goodwill factor).

    The fact they havent says it all really.

  45. creigs1707repeal says:

    It has been announced that Portsmouth is to lose shipbuilding capability. But the refit and maintenance at Portsmouth, employing thousands of people, will remain open. All I see is that Portsmouth shipbuilding is being mothballed in lieu of the referendum rsult.

    If Scotland votes NO then Cameron, will take the carrot he is presenting to Scotland back down south with a reversal of the Portsmouth closure and an announcement to close Govan (Scotstoun may remain). Remember, Cameron will have secured the NO result before the 2015 General Election. And reversing this decision in fvour of Portsmouth will win a lot of votes for Tories down south just before the 2015 election. They will use the same shipbuilding carrot twice to win votes. Very clever.
     
    If, however, Scotland votes YES then Cameron might reverse the deicision and return the contract and shipbuilding capability to Portsmouth which is really only mothballed thus far. But the rUK government may, as part of negotiations on Trident, offer the T26 contract to Scotland as a ‘collaborative project’.
     
    The bottom line is, the ONLY way Scotland has any real chance to secure that work from the UK is to vote YES. The need for votes down south will be too graet approaching 2015 for the contracts to go to the Clyde and re-opening Portsmouth will be seen as David Cameron ‘listening to the people’. It’s a win-win for Cameron.
     
    Scotland should not be fooled by any of these political games.

  46. David McCann says:

    Quite simply, other than BAE’s Clydeside operation, no other UK yard has either the design expertise nor the technical ability to build complex warships, which is why over 300 designers  in Scotland are currently working on the Type 26s.

  47. Kenny Campbell says:

    The unionist big guns still blazing the trail on the Herald

  48. velofello says:

    Are there indeed substantial oil and gas reservoirs off Scotland’s west coast? Rumour has it! But offshore oil and gas platforms, supply vessels, and oil tankers sharing the sea with Trident submarines?Isn’t that a bit hazardous? 
     
    Trident, a clear nuclear risk to the central belt of Scotland.
     
    Trident operated and manned by a government poised to term Scotland a foreign country should we vote Yes to independence in the referendum.
     
    Trident potentially holding back the development of Scotland’s western seas oil and gas reserves.

  49. Caledonalistic says:

    It may not be obvious on the surface, but this is one of the surest signs yet that Westminster can see the game is almost up and that a new game is about to begin.  Their next mission will be to convince Scots that our hand isn’t as strong as theirs.  Privately, they know Scotland holds the best card of all – the balance of payments.

  50. frankieboy says:

    She heard. She is telling lies. About this and every time she opens her mouth.

  51. desimond says:

    Apolgies if already posted but has Mr Carmichael had tea with Mr Davidson?

    Speaking after a visit to the Govan yard, Mr Carmichael told the BBC: “There is no question of anybody holding guns to anybody’s head. “What we have got here is a very positive situation. It is an illustration of the opportunities that exist for Scotland and Scotland’s industries as part of the United Kingdom.”It is for those who do not want Scotland to be part of the United Kingdom to explain how life will be for them.”

  52. MochaChoca says:

    Remember, they’re not closing Portmouth shipbuilding yard now, but ‘in the second half of next year’.
     
    By then the outlook for the referendum result will be alot clearer. If a YES is starting to look likely a reversal of the Portmouth decision becomes realistic.

  53. Edward says:

    One thing that I notice that keeps popping up from time to time and it popped up again on Question Time last night and it was this. The often quote mantra that the ‘UK’ has the 4th biggest military budget in the World. Sounds impressive, its meant to be.  BUT then you look at what we the taxpayer are getting in the way of ‘bang for  bucks’
    In terms of military personnel the ‘UK’ is 34th in the World, 87th in the World in terms of Active personnel per 1000 capita
    So what about Navy, in the top ten list , the UK, comes a reasonable 5th http://www.toptensworld.com/2013/10/01/top-10-naval-forces-in-the-world/
    The RAF, in the top ten list, comes 8th, after Turkey and Pakistan http://www.toptensworld.com/2013/08/24/top-10-largest-air-forces-in-the-world/
    How about, biggest army in the world, well the ‘UK’ doesn’t actually figure in the top 10 http://www.therichest.com/expensive-lifestyle/location/top-10-countries-with-the-biggest-armies-in-the-world/
    So the object of the above is to illustrate that the UK, may be spending billions, but what it gets in return is not reflected in the boots on the ground/planes in the air/boats in the water. This is a reflection of the wide scale overspending and wastefulness of the UK’s MOD

  54. Linda's Back says:

    The MSM is failing to stand up for Scotland on this issue
    Check out the balance in to-day’s Scotsman
    http://archive.is/nmBx5
    And how can BBC Question Time can discuss independence last night without any SNP rep on the panel but Nigel Farange was keeping up his record as the most frequent guest of the BBC.

  55. David McCann says:

    @MochaChocka
    See my post above. I could say a lot more, but rest assured Portsmouth is a non starter.

  56. Simon says:

    International arms dealing – just what the people of Scotland want to be involved in. I mean, building warships is international arms dealing isn’t it?

    Especially Global Combat warships. It’s so great to be able to fight Globally. Just defending your own territorial waters is for wimps!

    Scotland needs to start punching above its weight. After all, its print media does and look where that got it!

  57. Illy says:

    “Scottish Independence saves Portsmouth Jobs”
    I could see that headline coming up next year.
    It’s nice that Westminster is trying to get the English on the side of Yes Scotland.

  58. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Brian Taylor’s All-Star Roadshow is in Portree.
     
    ‘Speed bonny boat…’

  59. Oh, dear. Labour top brass isn’t singing from the same hymn book as Tory top brass. Head office will not be pleased.

  60. ScottyC1314 says:

    Can we please have Channel 4 run a state broadcaster (if indeed there needs to be one) in an independent Scotland. This is exactly the line of questioning we should have been getting from Scottish journalists working for the BBC.

  61. ronnie anderson says:

    Ian brotherhood , if yer gonna start signing git by the first three words  SPEED  BONNIE  BOAT LIKE THE BIRD ON  THE  WINGSSSSS

  62. ronnie anderson says:

    MORNING ALL

  63. ronnie anderson says:

    JIST POSTED UP ON YES SCOT AM FAIR KNACKERED IF SOME OF YOU PC GEEKS KIN CUT IT & TRANSFER IT OVER HERE  I WOULD BE MUCH OBLIGED

  64. Max says:

    The important thing to remember there is to be a UK government defence review in 2015. That will ultimately determine how many Type 26 frigates will be built on the Clyde. As with the Type 45 destroyers it is likely that the original requirement for Type 26’s will be significantly reduced due to further government cuts in spending.  
     
    So the question that remains is not if Royal Navy warships will be built on the Clyde, but how many? This number could seal the future of Govan in particular. Do you need two shipyards to build a reduced number of warships for the Royal Navy? 
     
    The only way you secure the future of Govan and shipbuilding on the Clyde is independence and the requirement that a Scottish navy would have for modern frigates. Nicola Sturgeon has said that any Scottish navy would have a requirement for at least 5 Type 26 frigates.
     
    So following a YES vote both iScotland and rUK governments would have to come to an agreement on the combined procurement of Type 26 frigates to be built on the Clyde. 

  65. John Hannah says:

    A bit O/T but the in out eu referendum appears to be being reported in a similar fashion to the indy ref.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24859486

  66. Ananurhing says:

    Trident as a bargaining tool?
     
    I think if we were ever to consider allowing a foreign country to use our facilities, we would have to consider carefully which of our treaty partners we could do business with. Perhaps put it out to tender. The rUK would have to compete with other foreign countries such as the U.S, France, China etc. I’m sure the Chinese would love to have an Atlantic nuclear fleet. Purely for defence of course.

  67. david says:

    isnt it nice to see project fears tactics turned against them.
    IF uk leaves europe we MAY have to reconsider our options….. sweet
    (nissan sunderland)

  68. Atypical_Scot says:

    Like Ineos, BAE have blindsided the UK government, who’s political hands are tied by the referendum. It’s no surprise that no politicians have a concrete stance since BAE managed this domestic downsizing with predatory mastery indicative of corporate inhumanity. 

  69. southernscot says:

    @ Stuart Black
    Thanks for the link. Great article that in the Guardian pretty much sums up my feelings.

  70. Silver19 says:

    Strange that when Scotland votes for Independence we are all of a sudden some foreign country but yet Westminster does not classify our celtic neighbour Rep of Ireland as foreign.

  71. Marker Post says:

    You have to laugh at how quickly Hammond caved. His response to the first question was, “I don’t want to talk about a hypothetical situation”, then he spent the next 7 minutes talking about a hypothetical situation.
     
    The Tory MP Dineage is, like many from the deep South, clueless about Scotland. She actually said, “It would have been better to delay the decision until after the referendum, to dangle the Type 26 as a carrot for a no vote”. Does she really believe 3 patrol vessels is all that’s up for grabs here?

  72. Ananurhing says:

    Balgayboy.
     
    My tongue was so firmly in my cheek, I’m still trying to dislodge it.

  73. Famous15 says:

    If formerUK leaves the EU,Scotland will regretfully gain huge investment and jobs which would otherwise have gone to fUK. We will be forced to sub contract back to them. I would prefer if fUK just remained in the EU as my Scottish cultural reserve would prefer the moderately very wealthy economy we will have anyway. I am not greedy but would not wish the demeaning situation of continuing subsidising fUK because after independence it would be classed as foreign aid and a charity.At the moment we just turn a Nelson’s eye to the subsidy we send and our natural politeness inhibits us from whinging about it.

  74. Muscleguy says:

    @balgayboy
    Well I’m an incomer to Dundee. Born in Ayrshire, raised in the small, Independent country of New Zealand. I agree that together we can make Scotland a great small country. There are small countries that would give their eye teeth for Scotland’s advantages and GDP.
     
    I also agree that Dundee, and it’s setting are wonderful. My NZ ‘hometown’ is Dunedin and Dundee reminds me of it in so many ways. Walking down the West Marketgait once and looking over at Fife I had a strong sense I was walking down Upper Stuart St. in Dunedin and seeing the Peninsula. How could I not feel at home in such a place?

  75. Vambomarbeleye says:

    Ruth might be the bean flicker but Nicola has the balls. The other two are just tit’s.

  76. balgayboy says:

    Muscleguy says:1.30
    Welcome to Tayside my friend. NZ is a wonderful Independent country, we in Scotland are aspiring to the same status.
    Stick with us please.

  77. Feil Gype says:

    ‘ And if it doesn’t, then the Type 26s WILL be built abroad, whether on the Clyde or elsewhere’ …..or not at all. The rUK will have te look hard at what it can afford after we leave. Saying that they wid need new ships te protect the new carriers …well thats if we still have them. They might sell them ana ! 

  78. Illy says:

    I don’t really get the whole “there’s nowhere else to put trident” nonsense.
    I’ve seen pictures of where the MPs work, it’s got a lovely bit of waterside they could use.

  79. rogerthedog says:

    Looks like in the event of a “Yes” the (rUK) Royal Navy will be left with Type 26 vessels either being built in Scotland (foreign country) or India (foreign country). India may well be the cheaper option.
    Do they still make ships in Belfast???
     
    PS, OT
    1603 Union of the Crowns = No change; Kingdom of Scotland simply joins the Personal Union which already exists between the Kingdom of Ireland and Kingdom of England.
     
    1707 Acts of Union = Kingdom of Scotland and Kingdom of England enter into a Political Union to create the unified Kingdom of Great Britain. The Kingdom of Ireland remains in a Personal Union with the Kingdom of Great Britain.
     
    1800 Acts of Union = Kingdom of Great Britain enters into a Political Union with the Kingdom of Ireland to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland. The new state is thereafter simply referred to as the United Kingdom.
     
    1927 Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act = Opportunity missed to fully reflect the withdrawal from the United Kingdom of the majority of the former Kingdom of Ireland. The Union Flag should have reverted to the pre-1801 design and title of the state should have reverted to the Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. The fact that neither of these took place was simply upon the grounds of cost and any perceived loss of stature on the part of the United Kingdom.
     
    2016 Government of Scotland Act = The Kingdom of Scotland is reinstated and the remainder should then revert to the Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland. The Union Flag should revert to Royal use only, (as was the case from 1606-1707), and the flag of the Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland should be the Cross of Saint George. (The Principality of Wales has since the 16th Century been part of the Kingdom of England, Northern Ireland is not a kingdom. The only kingdom remaining in the union between England, Wales and N.Ireland will be England, which will be united with no other kingdom hence the term United Kingdom will cease to be applicable). The Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England & Northern Ireland will remain in a Personal Union under the House of Windsor.

  80. proudscot says:

    Just listened to the Tangerine One’s Big Debate from Skye. The audience seemed quite obviously and at times volubly pro-independence in their comments and applause. A couple of things occurred to me during the programme.
    Firstly, yet again I wonder just who the pollsters actually consult before claiming only around a third of those polled say they intend to vote YES? Most programmes I watch or listen to on TV or radio, seem to suggest from audience contributions and reactions, at least a 50-50 split, and often a majority of pro-independence sentiment.
    Secondly, the Labour spokesperson, Rhona Grant, incredibly tried to claim that Ian Davidson did NOT threaten shipbuilding jobs in his own Govan constituency, when he suggested there should be a “get out” clause, which would allow the Westminster/MoD contract signatories to cancel the Frigates contract and re-award it elsewhere. She obviously hopes that the usual BBC/MSM blackout of such Better Together “foot-in-mouth” PR disasters, would have ensured the Scottish electorate hadn’t actually heard Davidson’s latest pearl of verbal ordure.

  81. ronnie anderson says:

    sTUART BLACK, Thanks for your post re guardian & HARRY BLACK a very sober thoughtful MAN I hope I could be that WISE at 91 yrs old ( doupt it tho ) I would with that MAN many more years of LONGEVITY  HARRY BLACK SMITH sos  A MUST READ FOR US ALL

  82. CameronB says:

    The machinery of warfare is only employed when politicians fail to prevent the interests of capital from resolving market failures the old fashioned way. Otherwise it is expensive waste with no productive benefit to society. A ‘dole scrounger’ of gargantuan scale.

    Is that what the people of Britain, let alone an independent Scotland, want or need.

    I hope the promised written constitution will bind an independent Scotland, to the moral principle of not assisting aggressive imperialism (neo or otherwise). in any way (direct or indirect). Surely it is possible to build an economy which does not rely on enabling the violent death of others, or the threat of?

  83. gedboy says:

    re trident being close to glasgow 
    listen dont worry about it I dont know if yous remember 
    in the news a few years ago at faslane they (and I kid you not)
    they dropped warheads on more than one occasion and a sailor was caught trying to lift a complete missile with a forklift truck
    and what has helensburgh got for protection incase one goes off
    anti radiation tablets in every home
    so if anybody is thinking of buying a house in helensburgh and there is no anti radiation tabs in the asking price dont buy 

  84. ronnie anderson says:

    Mustlegay, As a Dundonian Furriner  Welcome  noo ye need directions tae Clerkies Bakery in HAWKHILL  an mind try the BUTTERYS / FORFAR BRIDIES ( tut tut ) Balgayboy where,s your manners ( the least you can do is meet up an show Mustlegay the delite,s o CLERKIE,S ) n your buyin lol ( git me a couple o Buttery,s as weil

  85. lumilumi says:

    Linda’s Back @ 12.03pm
    The MSM is failing to stand up for Scotland on this issue
    Check out the balance in to-day’s Scotsman
    http://archive.is/nmBx5
     
    Just out of curiousity I looked up the addresses of those Hootsmon letter writers on Google street view. (Craiglea Drive, Dalrymple Crescent, New Cut Rigg and Liberton Drive in Edinburg, and someone from Gifford in East Lothian)
     
    I don’t know how the Dingwall guy (who made the most sensible comment) got through. Maybe because he didn’t include his street address and the staff couldn’t ensure that his house is impressive enough, lawns manicured, hedges clipped and nice conservatory in the back. 😀

  86. Gillie says:

    proudscot says:
    the Labour spokesperson, Rhona Grant, incredibly tried to claim that Ian Davidson did NOT threaten shipbuilding jobs in his own Govan constituency, when he suggested there should be a “get out” clause, which would allow the Westminster/MoD contract signatories to cancel the Frigates contract and re-award it elsewhere. 
     
    This attempt to re-write this small piece of history shows how this issue has become acutely sensitive over the last few days. Scottish unionists cannot go around threatening Scottish jobs in this manner because Scots will vote for independence. 

  87. creag an tuirc says:

    Well, an undecided friend of mine over on Facebook became a Yes today because of this debacle.

  88. Ken Johnston says:

    I made this point over on Derek’s blog.
     
    There was an article on BAE in the Sunday Times business section , I think a bit over a year ago, stating that ship-BUILDING would be concentrated on the Clyde as there was just not enough work around. This was an article on BAE in general, buy, don’t buy. Shares I mean. Remember BAE is mostly an aeronautics firm, with a very large footprint in America. I remember telling a couple of friends, since they get work from the yard guys.
     
    Slightly O/T. On Grangemouth, Milford Haven  refinery in Wales, owned by Murco has been on the market for 3 years, and can’t find a buyer and probably will shut. In spite of any buyer being offered 10’s of millions to take it on. 7 refineries left from18 a few years ago. Did these union clowns ever read the financials before they threatened Grangemouth.

  89. G H Graham says:

    That England will no longer have instant access to naval warship construction yards in its own territory after 2014 is a key indicator of the shocking financial state of the country.
     
    Unable to keep even a single defence contractor busy & too broke to unilaterally finance naval design & development, Westminster is the last institution to be lecturing Scotland about what it can afford post independence. 
     
    And singers of “Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves …” may have to seek someone with a good pen to craft a rewrite.

  90. Seanair says:

    Proudscot,
    I was in Skye earlier this year and was pleasantly surprised at the number of saltires flying  from houses and in particular a huge YES banner in one garden just outsides Portree.
    This despite the bile contained in the West Highland Free Press from yesterday’s man Brian Wilson. Or perhaps BECAUSE OF such bile.

  91. john king says:

    Call me Dave says
    Cankert Callan

    “Gee whizzy ! Two posts suggesting a similar theme.”

    Posted this on Newsnet @ 9.26 this morning

     jdman 2013-11-08 09:26
    Since where the construction of the warships is done is a business decision and not a political one, I would love to hear the English parliaments reasoning should the vote be yes next year as to how they will build those type 26 frigates in a non existent shipyard because they would not allow the tender to come from a foreign country, if they pass the tender (which seems likely as they are the only builders who can fulfill the requirements) to BAE then the only place in the British isles to build those ships is clearly Govan.
    we’ve got them over a barrel,
    you want the ships or not? 
    btw when are you moving that pile of scrap from Faslane?

  92. john king says:

    Balgayboy says
    “Reckon the westminster bargaining chip is that if Scotland votes YES you guy’s will still get the T26 build contracts but only if Scotland agrees to keep the Trident for an agreed extended time.”
     
    I would love to be a fly on the wall at that negotiation, 
     
    I can just see Alex tell them to take their scrap out of Faslane asap and well put you on the waiting list for the t26’s we’ll let you know when there’s a space 
    they wont stand a chance with him. 

  93. ayemachrihanish says:

    ‘I can just see Alex tell them to take their scrap out of Faslane asap and well put you on the waiting list for the t26?s we’ll let you know when there’s a space’ 
    Brilliant!!

  94. gedboy says:

    o/t sorry rev
    there was someone on here a while back saying she hadnt heard scotland the brave 
    go to youtube lookup john mcdermott 
    scotland the brave (with lyrics) the second one down 
    brilliant words to an old song realy makes you feel proud go on I know you want too go go 

  95. call me dave says:

    Cancel independence the boffins have spoken.  Aye right!       But only those selected by the Herald & the Scotsman.
    http://archive.is/O7L1h
     
    We shall see what the whole conference has to say at the end of the two days this weekend.
    This Trident move wont happen overnight whatever the SG says it will take a while and two years IMO wont be long enough, so be prepared to cut ‘The First Eck’ a bit of slack.  There will be much mileage in it for Scotland and pips will be made to squeak.

  96. Jingly Jangly says:

    GH Graham
    What about Jim Mcleans
    “The Queens Navee”
     They say it rains in England
    It fairly makes you think
    God send the rain and make it plenty!
    For if the rain comes pouring down
    That cursed land might sink
    With Nelson, and his Queen’s navee!

    CHORUS His Queen’s Navee
           His Queen’s Navee
           In his mercy now may God decree
           That England be at the bottom of the sea
           With Nelson and his Queen’s Navee

    As it sinks beneath the sea
    And stops the play at Lord’s
    God send the rain and make it plenty!
    They’ll say ‘Come kiss me Hardy’
    We’re running out of birds
    Nelson took them to his Queen’s Navee
    CHORUS

    While the Duke played water polo
    The Scts thought it a lark
    God send the rain and make it plenty!
    To get Cleopatra’s Needle
    And shove it up his Ark
    And send him to hi Queen’s Navee
    CHORUS

    We’ll hunt the Royal flotsam
    ‘Neath cricket cap and crown
    God send the rain and make it plenty!
    And all the floats asunder
    We’ll hold under till it drowns
    Like Nelson and his Queen’s Navee

    CHORUS His Queen’s Navee
           His Queen’s Navee
           In his mercy now may God decree
           That England be at the bottom of the sea
           Like Nelson and his Queen’s Navee.
     
    Sounds a lot better than Rule Britannia to me, and I must say now I have lots of English Friends, its just the British Establishment Im not keen on!!!!
     
    Kof at 10:55
    As I said it was a mates thinking, slimy politicians will use any language rather than say the truth, they have nowhere to build the ships, Portsmouth is a red herring, they only built smalls boats there, most recently River Class. They would not be able to build the type26 without major upgrades which nobody in there right mind would do, the Royal Navy is going to have to accept that the UK is broke and they will have to get their ships built elsewhere. As stated earlier the defence review of 2015 will more than probably cut the numbers required.

  97. gedboy says:

    sorry my last post should have read scotland forever (scotland the brave tune) with lyrics
    sorry
    under youtube music

  98. Wingman 2020 says:

    The ‘Absolutely worst possible scenario’, ‘the fall back plan’ for the UK Government will be to spin Independence (a YES result) as a continuing United Kingdom with just different political arrangements.  

    They will work hard towards an arrangement that looks no different on the surface than now.  The split will be invisible to the outside world. 

    The reality is that many things will not change.  Most of the scare story stuff is fiction.  The only real change is Scotland will control her own levers.  And with that responsibility will come collaboration with her closest neighbour(s) in such things as corporation tax.  

  99. HandandShrimp says:

    I think Hammond made it clear that he saw the Type 26 as a bargaining chip over Trident. A Yes vote will see fast and furious horse trading over a whole pile of things. Obtaining the Type 26 which they want to buy anyway from the Clyde will actually be a relatively small cost to Westminster (BAE and much of the kit going into the ships will be rUK based) but it will have a value to us.
     
    Of course it could be Milliband in charge of the negotiations and Davidson and Lamont will no doubt be demanding that Westminster does everything it can to impoverish the evil separatist Scottish bastards.

  100. Marian says:

    There is far more danger to the shipyards from a Westminster government that is financially broke and duplicitous.

    Westminster has been in discussions with the Indian government since 2011 about a joint venture whereby Indian shipyards build the ships that Project Fear would have us believe could be built in Scotland if it votes NO.

    A far more likely scenario is that post referendum Westminster will have the Royal navies ships built in India with final fitting out of classified specialist equipment only to be carried out at Portsmouth thus leaving no naval shipbuilding at all anywhere in the UK.



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