Willie Rennie, suicide bomber
Ever since May 2007, one of the strangest aspects of Scottish politics has been the poisonous hostility of the Scottish Liberal Democrats to the SNP. The parties sit very close to each other on the political spectrum, and the SNP are sympathetic to some key Lib Dem policies – most obviously a local income tax – which the Lib Dems stood no chance of implementing in coalition with anyone but the nationalists.
(The Lib Dems are also still officially a party of federalism, committed to far stronger devolution than Labour or the Tories.)
Yet a succession of leaders have treated the SNP as little short of pure evil. Nicol Stephen, Tavish Scott (especially) and now Willie Rennie appear to regard Alex Salmond’s party with undisguised hatred, for no immediately obvious reason, and the idea of any sort of co-operation on any issue about as unthinkable as Barack Obama announcing a treaty of friendship with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
In this site’s view, that approach was at least as responsible for the Scottish Lib Dems’ humiliation in 2011 as the UK party’s Westminster coalition with the Conservatives. Most people had expected the Lib Dems to form a coalition with the SNP in 2007, and when they refused we suspect that middle-ground Scottish voters no longer saw the party as serving any sort of practical purpose.
But the reduction of the Scottish Lib Dems to a tiny, embarrassing rump of just five MSPs, without a single constituency on the entire Scottish mainland, has given them a useful role in the service of the anti-independence campaign: that of cannon fodder.
Because the Lib Dems surely have no further to fall in Scotland. There’s no serious challenge to them in their Northern Isles stronghold, and PR means they’re all but guaranteed a few list MSPs, so they have literally nothing to lose. That means they can selflessly charge the nationalists’ guns, certain to be mown down gruesomely but sacrificing themselves in the hope of smearing some mud on the enemy’s uniforms.
That nihilist mindset would explain most of the Lib Dems’ behaviour of the last five years, from Stephen and Scott’s wilful and needless self-exclusion from power in 2007 to the Qatar poster fiasco and the grim, Somme-like determination with which the party plugged away at the absurd witch-hunt against the extremely honourable Martin Sime. And it’s also just about the only reason we can think of for Mr Rennie’s latest kamikaze assault on the SNP.
At the Lib Dem conference this week, Rennie launched a bizarre attack on the Nats on the grounds of their alleged links to the rather right-wing English Democrats. The evidence for this claim is so shaky it prompted Scottish Lib Dem member Andrew Page to post an urgent request for clarification on his excellent A Scottish Liberal blog. We highly recommend you read the piece now if you haven’t already, as it expresses the legitimate concerns about Rennie’s speech better than we could, and from a much more unbiased viewpoint.
As yet the only response has come from Lib Dem activist and blogger Caron Lindsay, who latterly appears to have taken on the position of Willie Rennie’s official parrot, faithfully and unquestioningly repeating her leader’s views on any subject. (She aggressively defended and continued the attacks on Martin Sime when almost no other Lib Dem would have anything to do with them.)
Despite much pious posturing, though, Lindsay’s blog adds absolutely nothing concrete to shore up Rennie’s original allegations. When challenged (by Andrew Page, ourselves and others), she was unable to support Rennie’s claim that the SNP and English Democrats had been “attending each other’s conferences”, pointing only to an extremely vague, undated, alleged meeting of some unnamed representatives of the two parties in Edinburgh. Similarly, when asked to produce the oddly-specific number of 11 tweets from the English Democrats that SNP MSP Angus MacNeil had allegedly retweeted in a five-month period, Lindsay has so far declined to do so.
(It is, of course, entirely normal for Twitter users to retweet comments they don’t agree with – we do it regularly ourselves, including a number from lunatic Labour councillor James Docherty this week alone. Many include disclaimers to that effect in their bios. But Lindsay repeatedly downplays the content of the tweets anyway, which implies that she knows they’re so trivial publishing them would embarrassingly shatter her entire argument. It’s hard to think of any other possible reason for withholding them, given that they appear to be the main plank of evidence for the allegation of links.)
[EDIT: The retweets have finally been revealed – see comment #2 below.]
With this string of overheated and hysterical smears, Willie Rennie is rapidly becoming a laughing stock in Scottish politics (we use the present tense generously). But from the wider perspective of the No camp, that’s no great loss. For as long as his position grants him media exposure, he’s a useful idiot who can be sent out to be riddled with bullets while his generals stay safely behind the lines, in the hope that a lucky shot or stray ricochet might do some damage in the nationalist trenches.
As we’ve noted before, we’ve voted Lib Dem ourselves at every election for the last 20+ years. The party is full of brave, principled, decent people. But right now, those people are – at every level and in every part of the UK – lions led by donkeys.
“Rennies official parrot” .. love it :-0 Another bird to add to the penguin that defeated a LibDem candidate in the 2012 elections. Actually its sad to see, I think many people like me actually *respected* the LibDems for all these years when they were under-represented and ignored. Not now though. They’ll never get that sentiment back, not in my lifetime.
Since posting this article, and after more pressure from me, Caron has finally published the tweets. They are as spectacularly inoffensive as you almost certainly imagined.
—————————————–
16 February 2012
English Democrats @EnglishVoice
Cameron hints at further devolved powers to Scotland should they vote to remain in the Union…as for the English, not a word was heard!
Retweeted by AngusBMacNeilMP
2:31 PM – 16 Feb 12 via Facebook • Details
—————————————–
English Democrats @EnglishVoice
Scottish independence would be good for Liverpool, Alex Salmond says in Roscoe lecture – Liverpool L http://fb.me/16vSaFf1n
Retweeted by AngusBMacNeilMP
9:28 AM – 15 Feb 12 via Facebook • Details
—————————————–
English Democrats @EnglishVoice
Congratulations to the English Darts team who have just won the Darts World Cup
Retweeted by AngusBMacNeilMP
10:35 PM – 5 Feb 12 via Facebook • Details
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18th January 2012
English Democrats @EnglishVoice 13h
‘NO’ to Scots MPs Voting on English Matters http://fb.me/xNlGm8qN
Retweeted by AngusBMacNeilMP
—————————————–
16th January 2012
English Democrats @EnglishVoice 16 Jan
Amid the talk of Scottish independence, it’s now time to answer the English Question – Telegraph http://fb.me/12FpaNnge
Retweeted by AngusBMacNeilMP
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14th October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
OFGEM reports that energy suppliers profits have risen from £15 per customer in June to £125 today…the energy… http://fb.me/KujmFf3x
2 hours ago
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13th October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
As Alex Salmond warned only last year, voting for one of the LibLabCons will destroy the English Health Service. http://fb.me/FoExxTLY
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11th October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
Scottish independence will reinforce our social union http://fb.me/11BKPEM5h
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10th October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
Alex Salmond: The days of Tory PMs telling Scotland what to do are over http://fb.me/1gwUEwujV
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3rd October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
Brian Monteith: Scots unlikely to care much about conference – Scotsman.com http://fb.me/LUzDCT4C
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3rd October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
“If printing money (quantitative easing) produced wealth then counterfeiting wouldn’t be illegal”
Copying them has shattered her entire embarrassing argument.
Who would have thunk it?
The very definition of a poltical pygmy charging about making a fuckton of noise so people will notice him. And do you know what I say – let him. The more oxygen people like him get to vent their spleen, the more Scots, includiing the all important un-decideds, will get sick of his bigotry and hate. The more surreal the rants, the more easy it will be to convince people that the union has ran it’s course. It will also be more difficult for the unionists to make a positive case when they have so brilliantly undermined their own platform with their beligerent imbecility.
I wonder if any SNP MSPs have been in a taxi driven by someone with rascist opinions or bought a newspaper from a homophobe? I hope Wee Willie is on the case.
Five years ago there was hope that the ED would be a progressive voice in British politics, but, unfortunately, like all English nationalist groups, they have swung to the idiot right. It is a shame as there is a proud history of radicalism in England which is denied a voice.
The LibDems had a fantastic opportunity to push for their federalism dream during the 2007-2011 minority SNP government. Their downright refusal to cooperate with the SG, who at that time were agreeable to a second question on FFA, even though it risked diminishing a vote for independence disappointed many of their own supporters. They blew it big time. Their subsequent refusal to support another second question, in the 2014, has shown them up completely. The LibDems had the opportunity to play an historic pivotal role in the developing Scottish constitution. Sadly, now that they have been outed as all-or-nothing unionists, a diminished, marginal future as a small party of protest is the best they can look forward to. They may not even achieve that. A huge price was paid to save the union, and in the long term it will prove to be futile.
Hmm … I dunno … that retweet of congratulations to the English darts team is absolutely crippling to Angus’s reputation ;-0
O/T im confused,my wee pal universiality jist got a doin aff a big lassie the other day.Its no that,i know the lassie she used to be my neibor,she stied doon fae me her name is labour.Aye thats her,shes got 2 big brothers No comment & tory cuts.Whit a fuckin family they ur,aye her i told you a widdnae go in the lift wae.Her that cried rape,she wisnae even oan a fuckin date.Listen here is ma bus im gawn doon tae see universiality shes in an awfy state.That labours sayin it wisnae her, but shes a bigger liar than her brother tory cuts.Will let you know mair efter ive seen universiality cheerio.
Luigi is on the money, the 2007 election was the time when the LibDems could have pushed their federal platform, working with a gradualist SNP. I like many others would have been delighted to see that happen. I can only conclude from then – and now – that the LibDems are in no way serious about federalism, other than spawning endless commissions over decades.
Seriously, how is this allowed? Why is it fine for politicians to slander each other and no come back other than back-stabbing but if it was about someone else they could sue for misrepresentation? The problem with modern politics is the amount of lying!! OK, so all politicians lie, its part of the job description, but if nothing is ever retracted and they are allowed to continue on mindlessly how is the uninformed public (i.e. the people who don’t make the effort to read political blogs), supposed to know what is really going on.
Humppphhhhh.
Yes, I was always sympathetic to the “Liberal” party – never really kept the same interest once they absorbed the SDP – the “Orange book” was a defining moment in the decline of traditional Liberal values. I finally lost all interest in them as a party and as a policy maker after their point-blank refusal to work with the SNP in 2007. Given that their respective manifestos were 90% identical in principle (if not in implementation) there should have been a clear opportunity to work together.
Shame, there are many intelligent Liberals – can I ask them to join us in changing our country for the better?
Wow, Angus retweeting a bunch of tweets that link to newspaper articles about Alex Salmond and Scotland, as well as a few statements which are factually true. Clearly this proves the SNP are colluding with racists and showing their true colours as Nazis.
Oh wait, no it doesn’t.
What an idiot. All the same, I’d better make sure I never retweet anything by a Lib Dem ever again, lest people think we’re somehow in cahoots.
“Seriously, how is this allowed? Why is it fine for politicians to slander each other and no come back other than back-stabbing but if it was about someone else they could sue for misrepresentation?”
http://wingsland.podgamer.com/how-politicians-are-licenced-to-lie/
Talking of suicide, I see the BBC are at it again showing an animation of Ally McCoist committing suicide by leaping through a plate glass window at Ibrox. It’s reported on the front page of the Sun.The clip was shown before the screening of the game v Motherwell, they are saying that it wasn’t meant to cause offence. Don’t know how it was meant to have been taken then, perhaps a bit insensitive?
Have nominations for the Pulitzer Prize closed yet? Move over Bernstein and Woodward, possessed of the fearless endeavour which uncovered those tweets, Caron Lindsay must be in with a shout.
The subject guy is a tube and is graciously treated with polite disdain in the Scottish Parliament out of protocol. Most of the people watching FMQ or reading his bizarre comments do so with a “what is this numptie saying now” and looking for some humour. A straw boss comes to mind. Just another talking head with nothing to contribute to the future of people of Scotland. Totally irrelevant.
Hang on… Liberal Democrats… English Democrats… the names are 56% identical. They are obviously in cahoots! 😉
By Jove!
This suicide bomber is equal to a penny banger, the only collateral damage this damp squib can do is to decrease the no vote and increase the YES vote. This is to easy.
Just a reminder:
Last year (15 polls) combined:
42% Yes
15% unsure/thinking about it
43% No
Since 1998 (42 polls) combined:
43% Yes
14% unsure/thinking about it
43% No
I don’t see any real change from the long term over the past year.
Anyhoo, now that Devo max (~3 in 10 on top of the ~4 in 10 for independence) is soon to be written off for all to see, we should soon return to something like 1998 values which would have delivered (if there had been a referendum) ~6 in 10 for yes, as per Y-Y in 1997.
Helpfully posted this on Caron’s blog as she seemed under the impression polls showed majority support for the union. If that really was the case, there would not be mass panic in the unionist ranks. In fact, we probably wouldn’t have a referendum coming never mind 51% vote share for independence advocating parties in 2011.
Thanks S-S. But doesn’t that mean that despite the flurry of anti-independence MSM/BBC/Olympics/Royal stuff etc. that there has been NO impact on the underlying pro-independence voting public.
So, the panic in the pro-dependency parties is understandable. It can really only move in favour of YES as more people become aware of the reality of the lies/propaganda that they have been subjected to. It will not change the votes of the ‘died-in-the-wool / my dad etc party-till-I-die brigade, but should convince those who do want more power to come over. I know that the referendum should be ABOVE Party politics, but the Lib/Lab/Con alliance will badger away at it being all about AS and the SNP, so party affiliation WILL come into play.
The McCrone report, and other information about the perfidy of Westminster (note: NOT the English) needs to be in the public domain. Most people will not look for it themselves, but a short summary of McCrone, plus links etc. may convince the undecided. Of course, not only McCrone but a simple analysis of GERS, the evidence from OECD type calculations etc.
I do not think that even a “Royal birth” in 2014 will make a difference. Kate can sleep easy tonight 😉
Aplinal. Yes. I don’t see the great year of britishness etc has had any measurable impact within normal poll to poll variance.
Right now, using those values, I would be much happier going into the referedum wanting a yes than a no. You have the unsures largely on side; just need to get over the nerves.
We won’t see any major shifts until devo max is put to bed. That looks to be quite soon – i.e. it will be confirmed there is to be only one question.
Also, as we approach referendum day in autumn 2014, we shall be not far off the 2015 GE so manifestos for UK parties missing the elusive devo max/more powers should be readily available.
Scottish_skier:
If the polls start to move as you suggest, the level of panic would be suffice to split the Scotish Labour party wide open. In contrast to your data, however, I have noticed that the BBC-sourced political experts continually remind us that support for independence has peaked at 30% and/or has been at the 30% level for ages and a day. “People just don’t want independence”. Personally, I have always been highly suspicious about this (consider the variety of questions/options set – levels of opinion just don’t behave in this way). Perhaps a few tricks have been played. However, a number of people I have spoken to are convinced by the 30% figure. I am fed up with the “People just don’t want independence” response.
Scottish Skier, how do you reconcile your figure of around 42% in favour with this “static on 30%” stuff that’s always being trotted out? Is it different polls, different questions, or what?
Also, I note you refer to Westminster voting intentions showing over 40% for the SNP. I’ve seen that too, but then when polls are discussed somehow the figures being shown are the other way round, with Labour said to be well ahead of the SNP.
Something doesn’t compute. A bit like last Saturday’s rally attendance figures.
@luigi
They are interpreting polls in the way they want to see them. They are also using Yougov which went out of step with all other polls for Y/N when the SNP won in 2007; something to do with their weighting methods/the change in PPVI (SNP vs Labour). Ignore Yougov.
I only have one out of 15 polls over the past year which has 30% Y. That’s because hardcore Y = 35%. You then have a ‘softore’ Y up to at least 43%, probably 45%. That’s why the SSAS gave what appeared to be odd answers in this respect. These softcore are not ‘anti-UK’ as such, but very anti-westminster so tend to say odd things like ‘I don’t want complete, full, seperate sail off into the distance independence but I want Holyrood to run everything’, even though the latter is independence. They’ll no doubt vote yes though. Then you have your FFA/Devo maxers which take the total up to ~70% who say ‘no’ to independence in a straight Y/N Q because they are the softer-softcore Y. They want all but complete independence but again don’t like the idea that independence is somehow all ‘seperation’ and stuff. It is Westminster that is what they don’t like, not the concept of a good relationship all the home nations and shared governance of some aspects. This lot will be won over when devo max vanishes and independence shapes up to look like it but with bells on (initially).
Personally, I’m happy for the unionits to shout the 30% figure. People don’t vote based on what polls are saying, they make up their own minds. Polls do not influence votes. If they did at all, it might get some nervous people to think ‘well, what’s the harm in voting Y, probably won’t win anyway’. I’m all for that.
I loved it back in the council elections when the SNP did not match 2011 % share and the unionists were shouting about how the honeymoon was over. The results showed that people just voted for independents at council level in many rural areas (H&I particularly) as they always have done but still supported the SNP nationally as a general way of looking at it. Of course since then we’ve had a good few Holyrood polls and of course the SNP are on the same share or better than they were in 2011, i.e. exactly as the election data showed; the ‘missing %’ of the SNP share relative to 2011 equalled the independents share.
The panic tells you that the unionists (ones with half a brain anyway) know all the above to be true even though they won’t say it. If only 30% Y was realistic, we’d not even be having a referendum.
Scottish_skier, thanks for the detailed explanation – much appreciated. It’s a complex and a difficult one to sell to the man and woman on the street, but I guess it will not persuade many people either way. Personally, I would be overjoyed if we achieved >60% yes in 2014. Anything less, and it could lead to bad feelings and possible legal challenges. I have always considered a narrow yes or no victory to be inconclusive in that regard. With >60%, there can be no argument about the result.
@luigi
Yes, it is a rather complex picture. It will become more clear cut when the electorate come to fully appreciate that there will only be one question and that no more powers will be forthcoming if they vote no. The whole devo max thing is muddying the waters but it serves a purpose; i.e. namely to say if you want those powers that devo max offers, you’ll need to say yes in 2014. Otherwise, accept the status quo.
I predict >60% Y in 2014. Similar as for 1997 Y-Y. You only need 1/2 to 2/3 of the devo maxers to say Y and your solid majority is achieved.
If we are really lucky, the Tories will help by proposing to abolish the Scottish parliament if elected in majority at the 2015 UKGE if there is a ‘no’ vote in 2014. That would probably be a little obvious though 😉
Devo Max has been about getting folk interested and used to the idea of Scotland having vastly more powers than it does now. You never appreciate what you have until it’s gone, and for many, having spent the last wee while thinking what it would be like having everything but foreign affairs and defence moved to Holyrood, the union just isn’t going to have the same appeal as it did before they’d thought about a more powerful Holyrood.
It was a genius tactic. I can hardly believe the unionists were so thick as to fall for it. Except for the fact that many of them are, well, as thick as the mince Yo-hann Lamont speaks..
O/T, but i hope someone more eloquent than myself can answer that other Willie (Bain) on Left? Foot Forward! What a heap o shite!
http://www.leftfootforward.org/2012/09/scotland-fiscal-union-foundation-of-future-growth-and-fairness/
Doug
But, but, but…
I thought that the MSM were saying that AS had been boxed into a corner with the Yes/No option?
🙂
The funny thing is that it is actually they, in their eagerness to corner AS (and believing their own wishful thinking), that are boxed in. However, the longer the illusion is held the worse it will be for them. Things are changing so rapidly in Scotland (what a stonking week this has been!) that if you’re not close to the ground you won’t know what’s going on. Thanks are due to Rev Stu. this week though, it’s been one of the best.
I’m already treasuring my memories of Saturday. Of walking with such a happy friendly crowd down to Princes Street, with passers-by smiling and waving and giving us the thumbs-up. Of shouting “YES” so “the people in the Northern Isles can hear us”. Of a girl coming round with a bag full of tablet, dishing it out to everyone in the arena. Of lying back on the terrace as the sun began to dip towards the castle ramparts, shouting at someone to get his bloody placard out of the way, it was interfering with my tan.
I feel something changing.
@Juteman
Willie Bain says the following:
“The reason fiscal union works in the United States is that Washington is able to boost demand, and support less affluent states by redistribution of resources. Virginia, for example, received $590 billion, and Florida nearly $300bn, in fiscal transfers from the federal government between 1990 and 2009. It works for Scotland within the United Kingdom too, which provided net transfers from the UK government to Scotland of some £75.8bn between 1999 and 2008.”
He helpfully provides a link to where he gets these figures from and lo and behold its this document from the Scotland Office (which is the pre Neal Alsen era).
In other words he is showing the figures for Scotland not including ANY north sea Oil and Gas Revenues OR any corporation Tax…
According to Willie bain we only raised between £29 billion and £45 billion in taxes per year.
Thats been debunked for 5 years now!!!
I think they are back to saying we are “Too Poor”.
“Thanks are due to Rev Stu. this week though, it’s been one of the best.”
Cheers! It’s been a whopper for hits, too – on course to be the biggest ever, bigger even than any of the Rangers-heavy weeks when we were getting thousands of views from unusual places.
@Scott M.
Come on man, it’s really simple:
Scotland’s economy is doing really well within the union, but economically Scotland is a basket case so needs subsidies. There is no oil left, but the huge amounts of oil that remain need UK government/stability/support to properly develop and produce. Likewise, Scottish renewables are a waste of time – nuclear is the answer. However, like the oil, to properly develop this huge potential natural resource requires UK expertise and support. Then there’s e.g. whisky; you can’t run a country on whisky – it’s small fry – but this massive global export/revenue generator would not sell worldwide if it was not for British overseas influence. And so on…
I thought the pro-union position was as clear as day.
scotland being independents lies in gods hands ? and iam sure william wallace would not vote for it ?…knowing scotlands freedom and blessed history would be at the mercy of the satanic eussr nwo of those unelected baffoons in brussels ?…praise the lord …vote ukip.scotland
I have never trusted the Lib Dems, always seem like tories who have difficulty admitting it. I am not surprised by the increasing rubbish that comes from them as stated above they have nothing to lose thus cannon fodder for the Union within the MSM.
The libdems have not a lot left but smear and fear as they face electoral oblivion. Hopefully in an independent Scotland, we vote them out permanently and new parties rise.
@PPGC
UKIP have the wrong party name. It should really be something like rUKIP-ExSco (rest of the UK Independence party, excluding Scotland) as they don’t have a single elected representative in Scotland and polled less than the Scottish Senior Citizens party at the last election; bit embarrassing really. Changing the name would go some way to save blushes.
Cammy boy has no intention of taking the UK out of the EU. Today’s fun just to get UKIP voters on side until he wins the election and can forget about the EU issue for another 5 years.
An independent Scotland could choose to leave or remain in the EU. I think you’ll find those who support independence have both pro and against EU camps.
ASSISTANCE REQUIRED
I was looking for the article written by Niall Alsen called “The Great Deception” but the page on which it resides is now reading an error sign.
Do any wings readers know of its location as google seems to draw a blank.
Odd really given that it totally debunks the claims Willie Bain just made on left foot forward and has just up and vanished.
If you have the url, try the Wayback Machine.
Is this it Scot?
http://www.electricscotland.com/business/THE_GREAT_DECEPTION_FINAL.pdf
Excellent response on LFF, Scott.
Cheers.:-)
The SLD Crack Suicide Squad
@Scott Minto
You might find it linked somewhere from the SDA’s site….some facsimile might even be in that site too. Also, there’s oilofscotland.org – the site is a total mess to look at, but it might just have what you’re after.
Scott Minto is it not Aslen rather than Alsen.
http://www.scotsgait.co.uk/index.php/forum?func=view&catid=12&id=9720&view=entrypage
http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/obfuscation.htm
@Adrian B
The exact article. Thank you.
@Cynical Highlander – Also thank you for the version you found.
Scott,
John Jappy is also a good source:
http://inchbrakie.tripod.com/snpdingwall/id24.html
Newsnet Story has other links in comments from memory, article is also worth a read.
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/4235-would-an-independent-scotland-be-financially-sound