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Wings Over Scotland


Trying Not To Think About Time

Posted on July 12, 2022 by

A quick schedule for the future.

BEFORE CHRISTMAS 2022

According to Joanna Cherry, we should expect some sort of outcome from the Lord Advocate’s referral of proposed indyref legislation to the Supreme Court by no later than the end of this year.

Possibly the SC will refuse to adjudicate on the matter at all, but more likely is that they’ll rule against. Both outcomes are the same in practice – if they refuse, we already know the Lord Advocate doesn’t believe a referendum to be within Holyrood’s powers, so she won’t grant permission for the legislation to go ahead.

There is, of course, a theoretical possibility the Supreme Court will rule in Holyrood’s favour – we estimate the probability at <1% – in which case we can all start preparing for a referendum in spring 2024 (we know there’s no credible prospect whatsoever of it happening in October 2023) and the rest of this article is irrelevant.

But let’s be honest. That isn’t happening. So what then?

JANUARY 2023 – NOVEMBER 2024

Absolutely nothing.

The SNP will, of course, now be insisting that the next UK election is going to be a plebiscite on independence. But in practice that doesn’t mean anything. At the turn of 2023 that election will still be two years away, which is an eternity in politics, and most people will be far too busy working out which of their limbs and organs to sell to pay their gas and electricity bills to care about a far-off election.

(“But we need independence to get us out of this terrible situation!”, the SNP will regularly squeal, while doing nothing whatsoever about it. They COULD collapse the Scottish Parliament the day after the Supreme Court’s ruling and trigger an instant plebiscitary Holyrood election – giving them a better chance of winning because 16 and 17-year-olds would have the vote – but they won’t. They’ve already told us their plan is to wait another two years for some secret reason.)

So everything will be pretty much the same as it’s been for the last six years. The SNP will get on with their key policy agenda of putting men in women’s toilets, and maybe occasionally putting out some dry, waffly “paper” that almost nobody will read. Every few months they’ll announce another “big push” in the ever-feverish National.

(Amounting to nothing but a press release and the creation of yet another imaginary “taskforce” which will never be heard of again.)

The general public, and certainly all sane people, will yawn and shrug and say “Get back to us when the actual election happens”. Any sort of momentum will be non-existent, because there’ll be nothing to create it around.

NOVEMBER-DECEMBER 2024

A general election campaign begins. We already know the Unionists aren’t going to play ball with the plebiscite idea, so there won’t be any big indy debates on TV or in town halls or wherever, because Unionists won’t participate and what do you think the BBC and ITV are going to do, give the SNP 90 minutes of free airtime against three empty chairs? Broadcasters will treat the election as a normal one, because in all technical senses it is. The rest of the UK will only be interested in Labour vs the Tories, in which Scottish issues are an irrelevant sideshow.

(Because they both have the exact same policies on the constitution.)

Frankly this site is still highly sceptical that the SNP will actually run on a one-line manifesto in 2024. They’ve been pretty cagey and vague in what they’ve said about it thus far. But even if we assume they do, we’re currently 28 months away from that fight beginning in earnest.

All we’re saying, readers, is “even if you somehow still believe that the SNP’s indy masterplan is serious in intent, get ready for a very very long period of boredom”.

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    178 to “Trying Not To Think About Time”

    1. Milady says:

      I doubt the next PM, be it Sunak or whoever, is going to wait the full 5 year term to have an election, I think it will be sooner than 24/25 and Sturgeon will, once again, be utterly unprepared. She is so dogmatic and has zero strategic nous. The SNP needs multiple plans and, most importantly, fleetness of foot. Sadly any plan they actually have is teetering on 5 inch stilettos and likely to fall over in a slight southerly breeze. It is so dispiriting.

    2. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘…a very very long period of boredom”.’

      Sobering thought.

      Might do us all a lot of good.

      😉

    3. Elizabeth Hagan says:

      Having just read an article on the “thought police” within the SNP and their agenda, I for one am quite happy that a referendum will not take place. I do not want to live in an independent Scotland under their political woke ideology.

    4. stonefree says:

      I wonder when the persona of Sturgeon will implode? I’m sure it will,
      She has lied for so long ,That will be having an effect,the buggering about for eight years,Can anyone be sure it is only that time? Or has it been longer?
      It’s clear that the dossers within are the same as her.
      That is an odor now permeates Scotland

    5. ScottieDog says:

      Indeed, the media will absolutely play down a plebiscite election and so there will be little discernible increase in turnout – probably less due to voter ID.

      Mind you when the de-facto leader of the YES campaign announces a referendum then sits down to read a book, it should be obvious what their intentions are,

    6. Shug says:

      I do hope conference give her a hard time

    7. Andy Ellis says:

      As our Irish cousins say: “If I was going there, I wouldn’t start from here.”

      It’s all to play for I suppose, and as you say 2 years is a long time in politics. Though not that much has changed in Scotland over the past 24 months. 🙁

    8. Soda says:

      Today i plan to get a haircut, see my aging father as its his 83rd Birthday followed by pottering around in the garden.
      For the rest of my remaining holiday from work, the wife and i will go away for the night tomorrow to essentially get away from the kids for a bit, eat and drink as much as we can and totally think about this whole sorry mess as little as possible as its just far too depressing.

      I write this because i have absolutely nothing to add other than to say that at this rate i will be celebrating my own 83rd before there is any realistic chance of gaining our independence.

      So just so fucking depressing…

    9. Merganser says:

      I had a nasty dream last night about it being election day. Everyone was voting SNP. Everyone I asked ‘why are you doing this’ said the same thing: ‘It’s because I don’t want independence. Look at their record since 2014. They will keep us safely in the Union’.

      Glad to wake up. Then I started thinking about it.

    10. stonefree says:

      @ Milady at 12:29 pm

      Unfortunately She has nothing, she has no plan never mind more that one, She has for so many year been out of her depth, Throwing money at the wall has been her way of covering up,
      What permanent damage has really been done?
      A lot more than we can imagine

    11. Monica Worley says:

      Disbanding the ScotParl and calling a Holyrood plebiscite is exactly what they should do, not only because of the franchise difference between that and WM GE. Cutting out the 16-17 year olds from a vote on indy has got to be up there with the most stupid ideas ever. But not a chance they’ll do this as it would put their control of Scotland at risk.

    12. Shug says:

      I see the SG is planning to divert attention by removing not proven from courts. Yes it will be good to align hundreds of years of judgements with our masters in England
      Anything else is paying for a headline and suggests doubt in our wonderful legal system.

    13. James Che says:

      Elizabeth Hagen.

      She isa claus swabb baby along with trudue an lenski, there fore prolonging Scottish independence as long as possible until the big boys take over Scotland.

    14. Peter A Bell says:

      What happens next? That’s the big question. Even if Stu Campbell was being far too pessimistic and the things that he says won’t happen did happen and the things that worked against Nicola’s Wizard Wheeze actually worked as sort-of-planned, that still leaves the question – what happens next?

      Follow any of the even vaguely possible scenarios and in every case, you end up at a point where the Scottish Parliament will be required to do something it is not permitted to do.

      Suppose, for example, the referendum goes ahead and there’s a 65% Yes vote and despite the fact that it is no more than an opinion poll the Scottish Government decided to treat it as if it was a real constitutional referendum, what happens next? What’s the Scottish Government’s next move?

      In this scenario, the Scottish Government might demand that the UK government enter into good faith negotiations on a post-independence settlement. Once the then British Prime Minister and every other British politician stops laughing, the Scottish Government will be told to GTF. Maybe come back in a decade or twelve.

      What happens next? The Scottish Government has publicly taken the position that the will of the people of Scotland as expressed in the pretendy referendum must be honoured. What are they now going to do in order to honour the will of Scotland’s people by restoring independence?

      All that’s left is #ScottishUDI.

      Take another scenario. The Scottish Government decides that it won’t be a pretendy referendum at all. Maybe somebody has laced their coffee with some substance, but they come over all bold ‘n’ that and say that since the British Prime Minister has wiped their arse with the Section 30 request and the UK Supreme Court has told them not to be silly, they’re going to make it a REAL constitutional referendum after all. The old ‘hung for a sheep’ philosophy. If they’re not allowed to have any kind of referendum but are determined to have one anyway, what’s the point in making it a pretendy referendum? Might as well go the whole democratic hog.

      What happens next? Well, for it to be a proper constitutional referendum – a true exercise of the right of self-determination – the referendum will have to be authorised by… well… somebody! Westminster ain’t going to do it. So it’ll have to be the Scottish Parliament. This means the Scottish Parliament has to assume the necessary competence. The Scottish Parliament, at the urging of the Scottish Government, has to assert its com[etence in constitutional matters in defiance of the entire apparatus of the British state.

      Effectively, this is #ScottishUDI.

      All other scenarios lead to the same place. There is only #ScottishUDI!

    15. Blind Squirrel says:

      “Collapsing the Scottish Parliament the day after the Supreme Court’s ruling and trigger an instant plebiscitary Holyrood election” in October 2023 is almost certainly being considered by the Holyrood Yes majority as it is lawful and would wrong foot the unionists as they would be unprepared. However it will be dependent on two things:
      1. Is there enough momentum to win our independence
      2. Is there enough support to win our independence
      Cos when it comes on top…
      YOU gotta make it happen!

    16. Stuart MacKay says:

      What is the situation going to be like in a couple of years when there’s been a further 8 rounds of price increases for energy. The SNP are flailing around today. What state will they be in once people have had two more years of misery. Somebody is going to suffer for this and you can be sure it won’t just be the Tories.

    17. ColinTKirk says:

      The arc of Sturgeon. YAS! ‘mon then, ready, well we are waiting, too slow, open goal, well that was a bit incompetent, you serious? jeezo, WTF, ooft nasty, you phuqing liar, [redacted][redacted]
      Will never forgive her.

      Sure as day Gove tipped her off on the Tory plot to bin Johnson, giving safe cover for her announcement, knowing any Indy plan was heading straight down the cludgie, overtaken by events again.

      Over promised and under delivered on every soundbite headline. NewSNP operation has been all about keeping agitating Jocks in their box, managing the sheeple, keeping power. A Newlabour playbook painted yellow.

    18. James Che says:

      ” If i was going there, I wouldn’t start from here”.

      Totally correct .

      I would withdraw all our MPs From Westmonster, close the devolved parliament doors
      And reinstate the REAL Scottish parliament that we sine die three hundred years ago, as sovrereign Scots,
      Call an election to get rid of global woke NS snp and greens.

      Tell them we are ending the treaty of the union,

      And let them follow us with cap in hand,

    19. ScotsRenewables says:


      Blind Squirrel says:
      12 July, 2022 at 1:11 pm
      “Collapsing the Scottish Parliament the day after the Supreme Court’s ruling and trigger an instant plebiscitary Holyrood election” in October 2023 is almost certainly being considered by the Holyrood Yes majority as it is lawful

      I think you will find it takes a two thirds majority in Holyrood to disband the Parliament.

      This was one of the big arguments for creating a ‘supermajority’ of pro-indy MSPs.

    20. Republicofscotland says:

      What if Labour forces and wins a VONC against the Tory government because Johnson won’t stand down immediately would that bring a GE closer than two years?

      Still I think Sturgeon will use it to make sure her MP numbers will rise via Scots voting for them thinking that the GE will be used as a plebiscite when it won’t. she can then say I tried but Westminster said no, the die-hard Sturgeonites and those that don’t know the reality of Sturgeon and what she’s like, will just shrug their shoulders and say oh well, we’ll get another chance in 2026.

    21. Gordon Keane says:

      We see that UK Govt. has asked the Supreme Court to throw out the case by SNP.
      Gordon Brown will be so proud of himself with his openly anti Scottish creation in London!
      However, SNP should never have gone to that Court at all.
      Its way past time SNP got serious about Independence. And playing by London’s rules is not being serious about it.
      We would hope others will force the First Minister to get serious, otherwise, we get nowhere, and her own reputation ends up in ruins.
      Scotland can’t afford any more of these delays.

    22. James Che says:

      Peter Bell.

      You are not thinking like a Sovereign Scot at all. You hand your Sovereignty over like NS.
      If you are wanting independence of Scotland from the treaty of the union.
      REMEMBER THAT THE TREATY OF THE UNION HAS THE SCOTS CLAIM OF RIGHT IN IT.

      As a Scot that is Sovereign with the claim of right you can choose a new govetnment.
      No stipulations are made in that claim of right that it has to be done via westminster at all. Nor were there any clause as to when or how,

      The mentality of the starting point and the finishing line is up to the Scots.
      Either the treaty is correct or is it all a pseudo lie?

    23. Andy Ellis says:

      @Scotsrenewables

      From memory when this was discussed before, I thought the process was that e.g. the SNP/Green government “resigned” and no other party or coalition could form a government or elect a new First Minister, then the Presiding Officer was obliged to call fresh elections within “X” days, and it was only a couple of weeks, I think?

      I’m sure I remember seeing chat on Twitter involving Tricia Marwick…?

    24. 100%Yes says:

      See me me I used to be SNP, all we are doing is voting for SNP MP/MSP and councillor’s for them to keep their life styles within the British state.

      The SNP aren’t going to fight for Scotland the way there fighting for tans gender rights, who would have thought 1 person could have cause so much damage and get away with it.

    25. JockMcT says:

      Absolutely fkn depressing for sure. We simply cannot wait for sturgeon and the cabal to act. It will never be in our interest anyway. UDI it is, what’s left..? Before long Rees Mogg and co will be coming for us to assimilate us lock, stock and barely smoking barrel.

    26. Republicofscotland says:

      James Che @1.33pm.

      I agree but Scots are not the French or Sri Lankans, we only do happy clappy flag waving marches.

    27. Breeks says:

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.scotsman.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fuk-government-seeks-to-have-independence-referendum-bill-thrown-out-by-supreme-court-3765173

      “UK ministers confirmed they have now lodged an initial response with the court, where their lawyers will argue the bill is “premature” as it has not passed through the Scottish Parliament”.

      For those not paying attention, that’s precisely how Martin Keatings case was spiked; because it was hypothetical without the legislation in place.

      Nicola Sturgeon falls over the trip wire which Nicola Sturgeon set for Martin Keatings.

      I suppose it’s “green” to recycle your trip wires….

    28. Republicofscotland says:

      Yeah Breeks its here as well.

      “THE UK Government has lodged papers with the Supreme Court arguing that the Scottish Government’s bid to legislate for a second independence referendum should be thrown out.

      The papers make clear the Tory government’s view that an indyref2 bill would be outside the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.

      The UK Government is asking the Supreme Court whether a ruling would be premature given that the Scottish Government’s referendum bill has not yet been submitted to, or passed by, parliament.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20273120.scottish-independence-uk-government-asks-supreme-court-bin-indyref2-case%2F

    29. Mr Logic says:

      @ Republicofscotland, there’s less chance of Labour winning a VONC in Westminster than there is of Shagger Boris telling the truth.

      The timing of the next General Election makes no difference. As does the result. Whoever forms the next government in Westminster isn’t going to allow indyref2.

      Which suits Sturgeon and her coven just fine. They can continue playing pretendy government, collecting huge ministerial salaries and passing laws to pardon 17th century witches, the women who didn’t get the vote until 100 years ago, etc.

    30. sarah says:

      There IS an answer to getting rid of N Sturgeon. And it could be done today.

      BUT it depends on several SNP MSPs [and MPs] threatening to, even better actually do, renounce the whip and sit as independents.

      Surely there must be some who see how awful she is and realise that for independence, and their own careers perhaps, she and her clique have to go?

    31. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I think you will find it takes a two thirds majority in Holyrood to disband the Parliament.”

      No, it doesn’t.

      If the government steps down and no alternative government can command the support of Parliament – which the SNP and Greens could ensure by voting against any proposed one – there is no government and an election is triggered.

    32. Peter A Bell says:

      James Che

      Maybe you should have read my comment.

    33. Andy Ellis says:

      No, it doesn’t.
      If the government steps down and no alternative government can command the support of Parliament – which the SNP and Greens could ensure by voting against any proposed one – there is no government and an election is triggered.

      This makes it even more inexplicable that any nationalist government worth its salt wouldn’t just hold a gun to Westminster’s head and give them the ultimatum that unless they honoured the 2014 precedent, then plebiscitary Holyrood elections would follow immediately thereafter.

      Perhaps the clue was in Sturgeon loudly distancing herself from the appellation “nationalist” as though it was a dirty word?

    34. Peter A Bell says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      12 July, 2022 at 2:14 pm
      “I think you will find it takes a two thirds majority in Holyrood to disband the Parliament.”

      No, it doesn’t.

      If the government steps down and no alternative government can command the support of Parliament – which the SNP and Greens could ensure by voting against any proposed one – there is no government and an election is triggered.

      Whoah there! How could the SNP and Greens vote against it when there is no parliament sitting? It is the POs role to try and determine if an alternative government can be formed. The final say lies with the monarch. The danger with this ‘collapsing parliament’ notion is that it gives the British parties an opening to form a ‘Grand Alliance’ and propose to make a government out of that. If it is even remotely viable, they’ll away with it. No election! The British parties enabled to do untold damage. Maybe not such a good idea?

    35. North chiel says:

      NS now realises she has been financially “ cornered” by the “ Tory government “. The Brexit “ philosophy “ was always a means of grabbing back financial powers from the EU which over the years redistributed funding to the more disadvantaged areas of Europe , and Scotland did very well over the years from this policy ( think of the massive benefits gleaned by the Highlands& Islands from infrastructure funding for instance). The Tory hierarchy were secretly seething as the watched “ their financial contribution” ( their money) being handed back to Scotland year after year . Now they have what they always wanted full control of “ their money” once again and now that they have the “ full purse strings” again , NS will have to “ dance to the Tory tune” .
      She has been snared by this and of course the “ Barnett formula income tax trap” together with the inability to borrow to finance Capital expenditure ( you can’t build a house without a mortgage / unless of course your a Tory millionaire) . With the fixed block grant controlled by Westminster there is no possibility of Holyrood in the medium term being able to finance the huge public expenditure requirements of government exacerbated now by demands from this sector for inflation proof pay rises . Notwithstanding , the collapse of Scottish exports to Europe ( again the Tories had “ gamed this” into the Brexit equation ).
      In effect , the present day “ British establishment “ are now resorting to the same dastardly financial tactics to “ strangle the Scottish economy” as they employed prior to the “ forced union” using the “ navigation acts” .
      Consequently , even NS now realised the realities of what the British establishment and 12 years of Tory rule have “ engineered . As I said before , the “ British establishment/ Tory hierarchy “ are always numerous steps ahead of the game” when it comes to strategic long term planning . They have now completely outmanoeuvred the flat footed academic non strategic NS & her “ government “ . She really needs to “ up her game” considerably to at least attempt to “ compete” with the “ Tory hierarchy” on the constitution & Independence “ .
      Perhaps some advice from her eminently “ more strategic thinking predecessor “ would be beneficial .
      Radical and importantly “ unpredictable “ action is required to at least attempt to “ wrongfoot” the “ Britnat establishment “ The sovereignty of the people of Scotand should be front & foremost . Our forefathers fought and died to retain our sovereignty, their heroism then is surely in stark contrast to our cowardly political leadership of the present .

    36. Bob Mack says:

      It is of course set up to fail as Breeks notes above.

      Cue moral outrage—-?- but little else.

    37. Roger says:

      Apparently Labour is going to call a vote of no confidence in Boris. If he loses, there will have to be a general election – even calling the vote would give Boris an excuse to call a general election and get his own back on the Tories for doing him down.
      All fun and games and the change of the SNP standing on a one line indy manifesto in 6-8 weeks time?
      I wouldn’t hold my breath.

    38. Mike Fenwick says:

      With the image of a casino chip with the word Scotland on it, I offer this as a post appearing on social media:

      ONE DAY … are we all waiting for just that ONE DAY???

      Why are we gambling with our country’s future by using just ONE day?

      We wait … and whether it is a referendum or a plebiscite – it will take place on ONLY ONE day!

      Just one bet. Win or lose!

      One spin of the wheel. All or nothing!

      No matter our efforts – might we fail by betting SCOTLAND on just ONE DAY, whenever it comes? Then what????

      “The Declaration of a Sovereign Scot” initiative is asking you to consider an alternative.

      An alternative which will use – EVERY DAY – until Scotland’s independence is regained! No waiting! And you won’t be alone, at every rally more and more Sovereign Scots ar becoming involved!

      It involves the use of International Law and avoids Domestic Law, with S30, and Supreme Court decisions etc etc.

      In Stage 1 (Repeat Stage 1 only) – it involves nothing more than a piece of paper and a pen – and these two questions.

      Will YOU exercise your Claim of Right as a Sovereign Scot and sign YOUR Declaration?

      Will YOU help establish – a LEGACY – one which – if necessary – all future generations can adopt and build on.

      The start of – A LEGACY – NOW and EVERY DAY from NOW!

      That is why a copy of each signed Declaration from our generation is currently being kept – to help create that LEGACY.

      This is still Stage 1 in this initiative (I want to re-emphasise that – I repeat this is still Stage 1 only) – it is an open invitation for all Sovereign Scots to participate.

      It ain’t complicated – the blank Declarations, and the pens have been and will be supplied at every rally. It simply awaits YOUR decision – will you sign?

      Faites vos jeux!

      (PS: I very recently started to reach out to Yes Groups to see if they wanted to participate so that those who cannot attend rallies have the opportunity to take part, for example at local Yes Stalls.)

      Ends … for background and more info head here:

      https://www.facebook.com/X2-113742180011217/

    39. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @North chiel (2.21) –

      ‘She really needs to “ up her game” considerably to at least attempt to “ compete” with the “ Tory hierarchy” on the constitution & Independence “’

      Doesn’t seem likely if, as evidenced by her own ‘Top Ten books’ of 2022, she spends a great deal of her time reading pish.

    40. footsoldier says:

      Some very interesting scenarios on here but I do worry that 8 years of inaction by the SNP in selling the case, means we are on a hiding to nothing.

    41. Dave Llewellyn says:

      “They COULD collapse the Scottish Parliament the day after the Supreme Court’s ruling and trigger an instant plebiscitary Holyrood election,”

      At least that plebiscite would have the 16-17 year olds voting.

      Westminsters does not include them as they are unable to vote in a Wesdtminster election.

      How many more percent wouuld YES need inn a Westminster plebiscite to a Holyrood one. Any statisticians out there.

    42. 100%Yes says:

      If I’d been told that going into the 21st century it would have resulted in us all going back to the twelfth century I’d stayed in the twentieth century.

    43. Willie says:

      Interesting listening this morning to the pitch from prime ministerial candidates and universally that pitch is to deny Scotland any referendum or plebiscite.

      Indeed the rhetoric is actually much more vile than that with talk about fighting the nationalists to keep their great country together. This is no gentlemanly politics but out and out aggression against a neighbouring state – and it doesn’t take much imagination to realize annexation by whatever means is the agenda. The English people demand nothing less it seems.

      Listen to their words and reflect. These people are hostile and dangerous. They are our enemy. Hate is in their words.

    44. Dan says:

      @ Dave Llewellyn

      Re. Younger persons voting intentions stats. It is apparently still slightly pro-indy leaning, but not as much as some may think.
      See Appendix in the following article.

      An interesting facet of today’s poll is that the SNP habitually claim massive youth support for indy, but in fact the 16-24s the party obsessively pursues are only very narrowly in favour…

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/progress-update/

    45. Ruby says:

      All we’re saying, readers, is “even if you somehow still believe that the SNP’s indy masterplan is serious in intent, get ready for a very very long period of boredom”

      That sounds um …. boring! Is there nothing we can do to liven things up?

      I’m no good with boredom I’ll just end up in trouble.

    46. Andy Ellis says:

      Article 46 (Choice of the First Minister) of the Scotland Act 1998 says that if the FM resigns, Parliament has 28 days to nominate one of its members for FM.

      Article 3 (Extraordinary general elections) section 1(b) says the PO shall propose a day for holding a polling parliament has not nominated a FM within the period required under Article 46.

    47. Ruby says:

      Willie says:
      12 July, 2022 at 3:06 pm

      Interesting listening this morning to the pitch from prime ministerial candidates and universally that pitch is to deny Scotland any referendum or plebiscite.

      Indeed the rhetoric is actually much more vile than that with talk about fighting the nationalists to keep their great country together. This is no gentlemanly politics but out and out aggression against a neighbouring state – and it doesn’t take much imagination to realize annexation by whatever means is the agenda. The English people demand nothing less it seems.

      Listen to their words and reflect. These people are hostile and dangerous. They are our enemy. Hate is in their words.

      Do you think the English people really do? Is it because they believe Scotland is part of their great country England.

      Don’t forget our First Minister’s message Willie ‘Be kind!’

    48. Astonished says:

      If we don’t get independence by 2023 – as promised. I predict an enormous backlash.

      Folk will NOT turn out to vote for a westmonster SNP MP that doesn’t deliver. And once the yoon money stops who is going to pay all the transcult their wages ? The SNP would collapse.

      I know it will take much longer than necessary however that is the price we all have to pay for the capture of the SNP by yoons and the transcult.

      The only way to stop this is a revolt by SNP MPs and MSPs. And frankly they are far too cowardly.

    49. Ruby says:

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fnation.cymru%2Fnews%2Fengland-should-declare-independence-from-wales-and-scotland-argues-peter-hitchens%2F

      England should declare independence from Wales and Scotland argues Peter Hitchens

      How about instead of sitting around being bored we help spread the word in England?

      Challenged online on what currency England would use, he said that it would continue to use the pound, and “I suspect that without all those subsidies it will be stronger and our credit better than now”.

      Time for English folk to be encouraged to ask questions. Scotland is holding you back. Ask your politicians why they don’t want to give us a section 30.

    50. Bruce says:

      “They’ve already told us their plan is to wait another two years for some secret reason.)”

      There are a number of international positions due up in next 2 years everything from NATO secretary to positions with organisations you have never heard of.

      Peter Murrell is 60 in 2024 and private pensions can be taken then.she has 10years as FM, 7 in cabinet and 8 as MSP for a very large pension. time to move on

      while all the activists think she is wonderful.

    51. The Two says:

      The only minor disagreement I have is that, unless someone straps a rocket to Labour’s polling numbers in the interim, no Tory PM is going to wait til Nov/Dec 2024 for the next election. Winter votes aren’t popular given our weather, it’s much more likely they’ll move it back to May/June 2024.

    52. James Che says:

      Peter Bell,

      May be I did misconstrue what your comment was.
      However all we hear for years is the reasons and excuses for not doing independence or taking an evasive long route arse back to Front supreme court attempt by the Snp.

      1) Identify the problem,
      2) find a real solution.
      3) Act upon it,
      4) leave others to bring the court cases,

      PROBLEM.

      1) treaty of the union between Scotland and England.

      SOLUTION.
      2) March, wave flags, email and GMail, write on social media, write as many responses as possible to articles, hang the message out of your windows, have on your car, let the visitors and tourists see the message, but most of all bombard all The Snp with messages visually direct with the message.
      WITHDRAW OUR MPs FROM WESTMINSTER! END THE TREATY OF THE UNION NOW.

      Who will see or hear you if you stay at home quietly. Or only hold a march three times a year,

      Do you not want the tourists to see or hear you?

    53. Wally Jumblatt says:

      So, it’s Sturgeon’s football as ever.
      Gotta kick her out of the game.
      You’ve got two years to do that, nothing else is going to happen in these two years. Might as well focus on all the ways she can be driven out.
      Liar
      Fraud
      Incompetent
      Corrupt
      Mendacious
      Lazy
      Nepotist
      Woke
      Hypocrite

    54. Hatuey says:

      The next couple of years are going to be anything but boring.

      I was in Morrisons yesterday and food prices are rocketing. It’s about £4 for a litre of crud vegetable oil. The price of all the necessities of life are going up dramatically, not just fuel and energy.

      Some advisor to the Bank of England was on the radio talking about inflation a couple of weeks ago. I’ll never forget how he put it; something to the effect that we don’t need to worry too much about inflation because “the economy will do the heavy lifting…”

      What he meant by that was that people will become so poor that demand will fall and prices will naturally stabilise. He has a point. In the poorest parts of Africa and Asia, etc., food prices have historically been remarkably stable.

      What he’s really forecasting is a rise in food poverty. And he didn’t say it but I can only assume a collapse in demand will have grim implications for the wider economy and unemployment — hyperinflation always results in mass unemployment, as far as I understand it.

      I see that Dutch police recently opened fire on protesting farmers. I suspect we are going to see more of that sort of thing.

    55. twathater says:

      @ Gordon Keane 1.28pm are you the Gordon Keane from Business For Scotland , if so do you not have any sense of irony ,you have constantly bigged up and supported sturgeon and her morons , you have opposed anyone who has exposed her constant FAILURES , if you are the BFS guy YOU are just as much to blame for her inaction as the rest of her apologists and sycophants

    56. twathater says:

      Rev on your last post I asked your opinion on Sara Salyers , SSRG , and SALVO’S intention to move FORWARD with the COR , I asked why you have never done any articles on it , did you believe it was a route out of the maze or like some commenters on here think it is ancient twaddle , I and I suppose others would like your opinions , I say suppose because I am not presumptuous enough to speak for the majority

    57. msdidi says:

      https://twitter.com/ScottishIndyPod

      Scottish Independence Podcasts
      @ScottishIndyPod
      ·
      Jul 10
      How much taxpayer funded heating support are you getting for your 12 homes Mr Sunak?? Brilliant questioning from Siobhain McDonagh #slipperySunak

      great wee clip from twitter page but I don’t know how to share the actual clip

    58. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      12 July, 2022 at 4:29 pm

      The next couple of years are going to be anything but boring.

      I was in Morrisons yesterday and food prices are rocketing. It’s about £4 for a litre of crud vegetable oil. The price of all the necessities of life are going up dramatically, not just fuel and energy.

      Did you spot a lot of security tags?

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fpropermanchester.com%2Ftrending%2Fsupermarkets-putting-security-tags-on-cheese-and-more-everyday-items%2F

      During this time of boredom I might take my camera to the supermarket and create a series of photos of food with security tags.

      No doubt I’ll end up getting into trouble being banned from the supermarket & charge with the hate crime Lurpakophobia!

    59. Ruby says:

      msdidi says:
      12 July, 2022 at 4:53 pm

      great wee clip from twitter page but I don’t know how to share the actual clip

      I just right clicked on the video & selected ‘copy video address’ and got this:

      https://twitter.com/i/status/1546198235198496768

      That seemed to work so I tried it again on:

      Siobhain McDonagh let’s the cat out the bag re Sarwar.

      https://twitter.com/i/status/1546828342317432842

    60. George Ferguson says:

      @Hatuey 4:29pm
      ‘..more of that sort of thing’. I hope not Hatuey you have to believe there is a solution through the ballot box. That would require honest politicians acting in the interests of the people and not their own interest. There is a disconnect between Holyrood and the Scottish people. I have been concerned recently about the nihilistic approach to Scottish politics. Meanwhile we strive to improve the public services in any way we can. Difficult against a scorched earth policy. Where do I start on the latest research. For example, A and E waiting times worsening without any background context or analysis. Humzas rota commitment is 5 years too late and undeliverable as it stands. They are all leaving you know. I would like to say but.. however I can’t. The new paradigm we have to live with is a very much reduced SNHS. Are the Scottish Public ready for that?.

    61. Christopher Pike says:

      I don’t know why any of you want independence. An independent Scotland under this SNP administration would be an identity politics obsessed, woke nightmare. It would be a particularly hostile environment for straight, white males – unless you happen to grovel and approve of “the message”.

      Independence isn’t going to happen, get over it and find a new hobby. The best Scotland can hope for is some kind of increased form of devolution.

    62. Dan says:

      It’s always interesting to read a new article on Gordon Dangerfield’s site.

      https://gordondangerfield.com/2022/07/12/with-thanks-to-the-frontline-feminists/

    63. Breeks says:

      Christopher Pike says:
      12 July, 2022 at 5:40 pm

      Independence isn’t going to happen, get over it and find a new hobby.

      If Unionists actually believed that, they’d be jumping up and down desperate to hold a referendum, but instead they’re running away, scared shitless.

      Not one of them, not a single solitary one of them, (yourself included Mr Pike), can articulate a positive case for the Union. All you have in your “political” arsenal is to never hold the argument you know you’re going to lose.

      Not so much a land of hope and glory is it? It’s more a combination of cowardice and grubby UK democracy.

      But hey, we know how much the Unionists like a fairy story.

    64. Republicofscotland says:

      “Independence isn’t going to happen, get over it and find a new hobby. The best Scotland can hope for is some kind of increased form of devolution.”

      Is that you Nicola?

    65. Bob Mack says:

      @christopher Pike,

      Now I know why you were on Star Trek.

    66. Breeks says:

      https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1546833204174372865

      Ok, this is quite serious.

      Dr Philippa Whitford is giving us until the end of the decade to mend our evil ways or she’s going to burn the planet, and I don’t think she’s bluffing.

      All those millions of people pulling their hair out because the SNP won’t do anything, just be careful what you wish for…

    67. Daisy Walker says:

      Out today, and yesterday, doing the Alba Indy stall and leafleting, advertising Thursdays event (7pm Royal George Hotel, Perth) with Alex Salmond… its free, and all welcome.

      What did not show up in the council elections, and what isn’t yet showing up on the ‘media’ radar, is the change in attitude.

      Things are bad just now, and away to get worse – these 2 things are agreed upon by all and sundry.

      So what’s the cure – labour?… under Stammer – don’t wake me up so that I can laugh. More life (and use) in a fish supper.

      The Tories? under a new leader – meet the new leader – even more useless than the old one.

      Neither of these 2 political parties have ANYTHING resembling a plan (other than to steal the family silver while they can).

      Nothing.

      I hated Thatcher, but in fairness to her, she had an economic plan (a wicked one I’ll grant you) that had a structure and an ethos behind it.

      Both leading parties at WM appear to have a policy of ‘lets just lurch from one thing to the next’.

      As the energy robber barrons fleece us and the food prices get higher.

      I cannot see the WM party in power (whether Labour or Tory) surviving the next 2 years.

      England’s cities will riot. Their Police are already cut to the bare bones and demoralised. The Army would make a bad situation worse, and their middle class are starting to notice the price squeeze ( new sensation for them ).

      Betty is on her last legs, and Charlie might just be the ‘nice guy’ who can keep the Royals going, but I doubt he’s got the oomph required to get some statespersons into Westminster to clean up this mess.

      So, as for Scotland, Nikla stated ‘no ifs, no buts’… and we kept her to it. And now she has started the firing gun (admittedly she appears to have used a water pistol) but she fired it… and she legitimised a plebiscite election.

      I’m not letting her, or the SNP back out of either, ‘no ifs, no buts’. And unlike 2020, when they could justify sitting on their hands and doing nothing, due to Covid… no such excuse is available now, and the cost of living crisis is going to kill very soon.

      If the SNP Party wants to sit on their hands and do nothing, Indy Campaigners like me, whether in Alba or not, will be spending the next 1, or 2, or perhaps 4 years, ENSURING that everyone in Scotland knows our country’s true wealth. And what the plan is for Indy.

      This is my country and I’m not going to shut up, not going to give up, and I’m not going away.

    68. Saffron Robe says:

      North chiel says:

      “The sovereignty of the people of Scotland should be front & foremost. Our forefathers fought and died to retain our sovereignty, their heroism then is surely in stark contrast to our cowardly political leadership of the present.”

      That is very true, North Chiel. I can’t help thinking our ancestors would be broken-hearted at the current state of Scotland and the paucity of our present-day leadership after the immeasurable sacrifices they made for their country.

      Willie says:

      “This is no gentlemanly politics but out and out aggression against a neighbouring state – and it doesn’t take much imagination to realize annexation by whatever means is the agenda.

      “Listen to their words and reflect. These people are hostile and dangerous. They are our enemy. Hate is in their words.”

      The very same occurred to me, Willie, after listening to the rhetoric of the Tory leadership challengers and reading the newspaper headlines. The language used is clearly indicative of Scotland being seen by them, and portrayed to the English public, as the enemy. Alas, was it not ever thus? And now we have a leadership who refuse to fight back and instead lie down in supplication.

    69. robertkknight says:

      Can’t help but be downbeat… Sturgeon will be doing the usual in taking a knife to a gunfight on Scotland’s behalf – with the blessings of the Brit Establishment of course, who’ll simply get the popcorn out and wait for the SNP to disappear up it’s own gender-neutral arsehole, taking the Yes movement along with it.

      Welcome to ‘Quebec-sur-Mer’, aka Sturgeon’s Scotland.

    70. msdidi says:

      Thank you Ruby
      So easy when you know how!

    71. Mark Boyle says:

      Bob Mack says:
      12 July, 2022 at 6:31 pm

      @christopher Pike,

      Now I know why you were on Star Trek.

      I thought it was the bloke who wrote those dreadful teen books which were Sweet Valley High if they had Stephen King as the ghost writer!

    72. William Russell says:

      I believe the Tory leadership candidates. If they say it will be at least 10 years then it will be at least 10 years and the SNP whatever they say will go along with that like the good little Brits they are.

    73. Daisy Walker says:

      One of the things missing in the ’14 referendum was the ability to shout out a Scottish rallying cry.

      We were too frightened of being accused of being anti-English. It was the cringe in one of its many formats.

      But let us be clear here, Scotland’s Independence struggle, is not to get clear of Welsh rule, or rule from Northern Ireland.

      This is about ending England’s rule in Scotland.

      It may have been the correct policy for that referendum, but not the up and coming Indy vote.

      And that is partly why, our written Constitution and our Legally standing Claim of Right could well be vital this time out, and provide a suitable and responsible rallying cry.

      The People of Scotland are Sovereign.

    74. Gordon Keane says:

      In reply to twathater above,(4.40 pm)
      this Gordon Keane is not the one you may have read or heard from Business of Scotland.
      I didn’t know there was another person with same name. As I write poetry, I sure hope folks don’t confuse me with my namesake!!
      And this Gordon Keane is more of an ALBA person, tho it has to be said, many of us hoped for beter from ALBA.
      Still there’s time yet for ALBA in due course.

    75. robbo says:

      In the meantime while oor Nick is searching for her balls to call a referendum.

      Now don’t be alarmed folks. Apparently it’s not possible to be normal. A picture of a man and woman with 3 kids is homophobic.

      You can’t have pride in your own wee family noo. You have to be queer only!

      https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/outrage-as-straight-pride-poster-promoting-normal-people-shown-pinned-to-scots-church-door/ar-AAZuiyl?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f8c79dc9a70045bebd60f68d2623fec9

    76. PacMan says:

      Just an opinion, but my perception of the political parties is one of being them stuck in the past.

      The Tories are stuck in the eighties, Labour is stuck in the nineties and the SNP is stuck in 2015.

      All the Tories want to do is to cut taxes and to cover themselves in foreign policy glory. That worked in the Eighties but now there isn’t enough North Sea Oil or nationalised industries to sell off to pursue that economic policy and of course the public is rapidly losing interest in the conflict that isn’t allowed to be discussed here.

      Labour wants to have that 90’s Things can only get better moment, riding in on a wave of optimism after a long period of Tory misrule but that isn’t happening because Sir Knight of the realm doesn’t have any presence and they have no ideas to the current problems that we are facing.

      As to the SNP, nothing more needs to be said. It’s the same old broken record since 2015 and even if another referendum isn’t held next year, I fear the SNP party faithful will again get whipped up in a frenzy with Tory bad spin and forget they have been marched down the hill again.

      They are going to be swept away by current events but it’s hard to see which party can ‘reinvent’ themselves in time to adapt to the extreme circumstances we are having. It does feel that Westminster will be limping from one crisis to another in the coming years regardless of which party is in charge.

    77. Breeks says:


      Daisy Walker says:
      12 July, 2022 at 6:43 pm

      I hated Thatcher, but in fairness to her, she had an economic plan (a wicked one I’ll grant you) that had a structure and an ethos behind it.

      You know what I think is really scary? Back in the Thatcher years, yes she was off her trolley, but the UK had some standing in the world. I would think twice about calling it integrity, but it commanded some respect.

      But nowadays, the world is a completely different place.

      We now have BRICS, not through any obvious camaraderie, but because for the last 30 years, Brasil, Ruszia, India, Chiina, and South Africa have all been watching the West’s scorched Earth foreign policy at work throughout the Middle East.

      UK Tories might have a wry about giggle about Theresa May’s dancing or the latest shaganigans Boris Johnson has got up to, “What’s he like, eh?”, but out there in the real world, it’s about as funny as a Susan Calman happy hour. The UK’s reputation is in free fall.

      The UK right now is an International laughing stock throughout Europe, it is despised and ridiculed in wider circles than Europe, and furthermore; right now the same world is watching the US look dangerously unstable, led by a President with obvious problems of senility, and what feels like a powder keg just waiting for one mass shooting to go too far and a full scale civil war breaks out.

      “IF” the West chooses now to exert some muscle over events in Ookraine, frankly, I think they could badly misread what the consequences will be. Just look at the farce of sanctions, which crippled Western Europe, and the US buying Russian oil through India as middleman. Sanctions? Farce. 1- nil Mr Putn and US Intelligence sleeping on the job?

      It doesn’t really matter whether the US has better kit than the Rus, or vice versa, because merely “thinking” they do is enough for things to get out of hand.

      This sending of weapons to Europe is moderately amusing to the Rus while they’re blowing it to bits, but if that changes, if Western weapons start causing the Rus to take serious casualties, the Rus are going to have a sense of humour failure, and “somebody” is going to get a punch on the nose. Do the arithmetic, and ask yourselves who that might be.

      The problems in Europe need to de-escalated, urgently, and a trickle of weapons or the negligible effect of having slightly better trained cannon fodder will not change the outcome, but it could be a spectacularly counter productive strategy.

      And who does Scotland look to for our leadership? The Global Statesmanship of Hilary “No Fly Zone” Sturgeon, backed by Curly Moe and Larry, alias messers Smith, MacDonald, and Doogan…

      I have such sky high aspirations for an Independent Scotland, I really do, but Jesus H Christ, how the fk did these dunces ever get to the front of us? It feels like Scotland is falling at the first fence. The most beautiful and creative project in the world held in abeyance by the fuds in Team Nicola.

      Apologies for the language.

    78. PacMan says:

      @ Breeks

      India is allowing it’s exporters to pay with rupees rather than USD:

      https://www.livemint.com/opinion/online-views/rbis-rupee-move-an-early-but-important-strike-against-dollar-dominance-11657619716989.html

      The immediate impact of the Reserve Bank of India’s decision to permit settlement of international trade payments in rupees might be to facilitate ongoing trade with Russia and open a window for Sri Lanka to import desperately needed fuel, food and medicines from India on the strength of a rupee line of credit that India could offer. In the longer run, it is one more step towards, one, the use of the rupee as a global currency, and, two, diversification of the settlement of global payments away from the US dollar. It is a welcome move that speaks of India’s confidence that its overall foreign exchange earnings and reserves are large enough to afford the luxury of allowing some exports that do not earn foreign exchange.

      According to the RBI, the mechanism for settling international trade payments in rupees is as follows. One or more banks from a country that is happy to settle international trade payments in rupees and use its export surplus, if any, to make capital investments in India, should open a Nostro account with an Indian bank that is also an authorized dealer in foreign exchange. A Nostro account is what one bank opens in a foreign bank, to hold funds in the local currency.

    79. PacMan says:

      I had been posting over the weekend about the motivations of Shinzo Abe murder but I had been caught up with things and had only looked into it now.

      Allegedly Abe had been promoting a church which the killers mother had made a large donation to and subsequently went bankrupt.

      I really love the uniqueness of Japanese culture and a bit part of that uniqueness is it’s oddness but as seen with this, that quirk can have it’s darker side.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Fabe-killing-suspect-unification-church-mother-member-rcna37569

      The mother of the man arrested for the killing of former Japanese leader Shinzo Abe is a member of the Unification Church, the church’s Japan head said on Monday.

      Tetsuya Yamagami, an unemployed 41-year-old, was identified by police as the suspect who approached Abe and opened fire during a campaign speech on Friday, an attack that was captured on video and shocked a nation where gun violence is rare.

      Yamagami believed Abe had promoted a religious group to which his mother made a “huge donation,” Kyodo news agency has said, citing investigative sources. Yamagami told police his mother went bankrupt from the donation, the Yomiuri newspaper and other media have reported.

      Tomihiro Tanaka, president of the Japan branch of Family Federation for World Peace and Unification, known as the Unification Church, told reporters at a briefing in Tokyo that Yamagami’s mother was a member of the church. He did not give her name.

      Tanaka declined to comment on her donations, citing the ongoing police investigation.

    80. crazycat says:

      @ Gordon Keane at 7.28

      Don’t worry – the person who runs Business for Scotland is called Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp.

    81. Ruby says:

      msdidi says:
      12 July, 2022 at 7:16 pm

      Thank you Ruby
      So easy when you know how!

      It was a great video I loved it when she said
      ‘It’s easy to be a philanthropist with other people’s money’

      So glad you replied to me as I wasn’t sure if I was banned or not.

      On The Herald or maybe it was The Scotsman you would get banned and you wouldn’t know. Nobody would tell and and everything looked normal except your posts weren’t uploaded so you were the only person who could see them.

      I could be banned pretty soon but just before I am I want to say that I didn’t see the following post which was posted at the end of the ‘Catch 2022’ at 12.45 when I had moved onto
      ‘The Trouble with remembering’

      It’s only thanks to Scott that I knew of this post:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      6 July, 2022 at 12:48 pm

      Andy Ellis, Ruby: if either of you ever mentions the other by name (including any “clever” ways of doing so indirectly) again in any context whatsoever you’re banned. Clear? Not comment deleted, not pre-moderation, banned.

      I have HAD ENOUGH of this fucking playground shit.

      I was posting away thinking I was being very good by not saying ‘see you next Tuesday’ but then this new post from the Rev Stu was brought to my attention.

      I haven’t been banned yet so maybe I’ll get another chance to show that I am willing no matter how difficult it might be to follow the rules.

      What if I do some press ups?

      Drop and give you twenty?

    82. Big Jock says:

      I think we all agree that Sturgeon’s tactics were deliberate and predictable.

      Make sure the Supreme Court are ruling on a theoretical referendum. Make sure it’s the year after the Scottish election. Then suggest a GE plebiscite instead of Scottish. That way she doesn’t have to do anything other than wait. She’s good at waiting.

      By the time the GE comes along ,it’s another 2.5 years into her term. Leaving her only a year to hang on.

      As Stu says. She isn’t even going to use the GE as a plebiscite. It’s just paper talk, and she lacks the grit or gumption to fo so.

      So we are where we have been for 8 years now. Another 2 and it’s a decade. She really has conned so many people so many times. A whole decade of ducking and diving.

    83. Derek says:

      Dave Llewellyn says:
      12 July, 2022 at 2:51 pm

      “How many more percent wouuld YES need inn a Westminster plebiscite to a Holyrood one. Any statisticians out there.”

      The same, I suppose; >50% of votes.

    84. James says:

      omg,been away for months.
      nothings changed, Scotland is still a mad version of Disney land.
      Stu your too good for this,I admire your talents, but surely even someone with all your capabilities can only take so much.

    85. PacMan says:

      Big Jock says:
      12 July, 2022 at 8:53 pm

      Make sure the Supreme Court are ruling on a theoretical referendum. Make sure it’s the year after the Scottish election. Then suggest a GE plebiscite instead of Scottish. That way she doesn’t have to do anything other than wait. She’s good at waiting.

      A rather extreme and very expensive way of being a jobsworth?

    86. Mark Boyle says:

      Daisy Walker says:
      12 July, 2022 at 6:43 pm

      I hated Thatcher, but in fairness to her, she had an economic plan (a wicked one I’ll grant you) that had a structure and an ethos behind it.

      I disagree. Thatcher’s history is one of the most historically revised of any Prime Minister in British history, both pro and anti, and both for reasons of contemporary political agendas.

      I reread Jonathan Coe’s “The Rotter’s Club” last year and it is a prime example of the narrative of the late 70s/early 80s being changed for the sake of a better story, where Thatcher represented a group of ruthless people who “meant business” (no they didn’t, they were clueless gimps praying for Ali Bongo, Paul Daniels or anyone to pull a magic economic rabbit out of the hat and make everything better), unions were honourable people (two words: Andrew Cunningham) and The Clash was the most important band of all time (RATFLMFAO!)

      In this world of selective memories, people forget that for the first term in office, “the Iron Lady” was lampooned in the Evening Standard as Jemima Puddleduck, forever losing her way and gullible to any slick talking snake oil merchant. There was a good reason she had the Tories at third in the polls (unprecedented for a governing party) until a combination of the Falklands War and Peter Tatchell saved the Tories and sank Labour where the SDP had failed to.

      Eventually she latched onto parroting Sir Keith Joseph’s half arsed ideas about “social economics”, which was little more than monetarism devoid of any pity or compassion (eg. Joseph wanted Liverpool effectively run down to a fold as no longer of use). This did at least lead to the fun exchange in the Commons where Thatcher – in an attempt to defend her shut everything, cut everything policies as any sort of coherent plan rather than ad hoc government by the seat of one’s pants – said she was a fan of Enoch Powell’s papers on monetarism, only for the member of South Down to rise and icily retort, “A pity the Right Honourable Lady did not understand them.”, much to his old friend Michael Foot’s merriment (Powell remembering only too well Joseph’s “beliefs” – like Roy Hattersley’s – tended to be in line with career political expediency). Outside of that, she just did what Ronald Reagan’s advisors told her to do economically – it doesn’t take any talent to be another’s puppet.

      Her marked failure to help the IT revolution in this country in particular when Britain had a clear and for a time near unassailable lead, handing it over by default to the governmentally doped US and Japanese firms, knocks for six any claims that she had anything approaching a coherent economic plan. Margaret Thatcher represented little more than the politics and economics of Hyacinth Bucket. It says it all about how bad things were then that the alternatives in opposition somehow managed to be even worse!

    87. Saffron Robe says:

      Lenin: “There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience.”

      Sturgeon: “There are no morals in politics; there is only procrastination.”

    88. Andy Ellis says:

      Rousseau: “Those people who treat politics and morality separately will never understand either of them.”

    89. Kcor says:

      Any discussion of the independence issue should begin with the fact that the SNP leadership, MPs, MSPs and above all the biggest betrayer in Scottish history, do not want independence.

      They are doing very well out of the current arrangement.

      Any noises they make, and window dressing they do, has the sole purpose of fooling their gullible independence supporters.

      Any discussion on independence should completely ignore the betrayers and their fake actions and only be focused on any alternate ways of seeking independence, involving independence supporters who have nothing to do with the SNP.

      PS. Does anyone have any idea when Joanna Cherry is going to abandon the gravy train she is on to actually start fighting for Scottish independendence in the real sense?

      Fat good it did to Scottish independence to get the UK parliament reconvened.

    90. Ruby says:

      Dan says:
      12 July, 2022 at 5:47 pm

      It’s always interesting to read a new article on Gordon Dangerfield’s site.

      https://gordondangerfield.com/2022/07/12/with-thanks-to-the-frontline-feminists/

      Thanks for that Dan.

      Everything so far is very clear. This is what I understood as transgender/sexual. I had the out most of compassion for people suffering from gender dysphoria.

      Now I haven’t a clue what trans means and any compassion I did have is disappearing fast.

      I look forward to Gordon’s further articles.

      As it stands I believe those claiming transwomen are women are fuckin’ insane.

    91. Mark Boyle says:

      Ambrose Bierce: “Politics: A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.” (yes, from The Devil’s Dictionary)

      Niccolò Machiavelli: “Politics have no relation to morals.” (The Prince)

      And finally, very apt considering the madness Holyrood intents to force on everyone or else under pain of cancellation …

      H L Mencken :”The worst government is often the most moral. One composed of cynics is often very tolerant and humane. But when fanatics are on top there is no limit to oppression.”

    92. Derick fae Yell says:

      Mao was correct about where power resides

      Unfortunately

    93. And Spouse says:

      Just read yours for Scotland and also came across this one from Shauna boy. Anyone else think Alex Salmond would have let this happen, when he was in charge?

      https://t.co/47ZdiyPO1Q

    94. North chiel says:

      “ Breeks says at 0640 pm “ wow yes yes yes , Dr Phillipa taking to task the “ Mealymouthed “ Britnat state Media propaganda lackeys “ head on” ! Step aside NS and IB , this is exactly how our “ leadership” should deal with these bought & paid for ( by our taxes) establishment mouthpieces. More of this please Dr. Phillipa this is exactly the type of “ leadership” required from our independence representatives on a daily, weekly, monthly and if necessarily yearly basis until the English ruling classes get the message “ loud & clear .
      Now sit up & take notice Iain Blackford & Nicola Sturgeon !!

    95. John Main says:

      @Mark Boyle says:12 July, 2022 at 9:04 pm
      “until a combination of the Falklands War and Peter Tatchell saved the Tories and sank Labour”

      Any predictions for the future?

      What is the combination of the Ukraine War and Sir Kier Starmer going to do for the Tories?

      Doesn’t history repeat itself? I can’t recall if we are due comedy or tragedy this time around.

    96. John Main says:

      @Breeks says:12 July, 2022 at 7:44 pm

      “The most beautiful and creative project in the world held in abeyance by the fuds in Team Nicola”

      Oh get over yourself Breeks.

      It’s a movement for the independence of a rather uninteresting and negligibly important small country on the outer fringes of Europe; the declining and decaying continent of the 21st century.

      It’s bad enough when the English come over all exceptionalism.

      Let’s focus on feeding and heating Scots in Scotland with the provision of secure jobs and affordable homes. Decent public services, and maybes some first-world infrastructure are all viable and aspirational objectives.

      Forget the lighting of shining beacons of hope on a hill somewhere. That’s already been done.

    97. John Main says:

      @Ruby 8:43

      Where’s the difficulty in following the rules?

    98. John Main says:

      @Hatuey says:12 July, 2022 at 4:29 pm

      “What he’s really forecasting is a rise in food poverty”

      Any ideas on the cross over point between (say) food poverty and child obesity, Hatuey?

      The most recent stats I can find for Scotland (December 2021) suggest just under 30% of children are at risk of being overweight or obese.

      Still, the figure for adults is around 65%, so no wonder the dice are loaded against the kids before they have hardly started.

      This is the kind of stuff that interests me. For every scaremongering, hysterical, hyperbolic poster like Hatuey, you can find a diametrically opposed view. You just need to look.

    99. Ruby says:

      John Main says:
      13 July, 2022 at 4:26 am

      @Ruby 8:43

      Where’s the difficulty in following the rules?

      Whit rules?

      https://twitter.com/i/status/1546773858597814274

    100. Mark Boyle says:

      John Main says:
      13 July, 2022 at 4:23 am

      Forget the lighting of shining beacons of hope on a hill somewhere. That’s already been done.

      And that was Gondor calling for aid!

    101. Republicofscotland says:

      Derick fae Yell

      Mao also said this.

      “Don’t wait untill problems pile up and cause a lot of trouble before trying to solve them. Leaders must march ahead the movement, not lag behind it.”

      Are you f*ckin reading this Sturgeon.

    102. Republicofscotland says:

      Radio news last night, they’ll be no VONC challenge from the Labour party, or it won’t be upheld, due to Johnson will eventually stand down so no snap GE.

      Meanwhile Daddy Bear says the Tories hold the the devolved nations in contempt, I agree, however its not the Tories that’s stopping Scotland from dissolving this union, its his party that’s holding Scotland in contempt as well.

      Its not the Tories that have lied for years about holding an indyref, it wasn’t the Tories that imprisoned Craig Murray or tried to fit up Alex Salmond, nor was it the Tories that harassed Mark Hirst, Marion Millar, David Lewellyn nor called for Manni Singh to be reported to the police for setting off a AUOB rally one hour later than originally scheduled.

      It wasn’t the Tories that wasted countless mandates nor was it the nasty Tories that made it very difficult to point exactly where the 600K “ringfenced” indyfunds are right now, given by Scots to help fund an indyref.

      It wasn’t the nasty Tories that introduced the HCB or the coming GRA, nor did the Tories ban us from demonstrating outside OUR Holyrood parliament via the SPCB.

      I loathe the Tories but at least they’ve got the guts to remove a terrible leader in Johnson, the spineless and gutless SNP MSPs and MPs are so self serving that they’ve kept their mouths shut as Sturgeon fulfils her own twisted and warped agenda, ahead of what we elected her for which is to dissolve the union.

      Sturgeon has succeeded in fracturing the indy movement with her lies and deceit, she squealed in delight when the Alba party failed to win any seats at the last Holyrood elections saying Their dead, Their Dead, referring to the Alba party.

      Sturgeon doesn’t give a monkeys about Scots or independence.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fpolitics%2F20274650.alyn-smith-tories-will-still-hold-devolved-nations-contempt%2F

    103. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If we have this huge expanse of boredom in front of us, why not try to sort out some of the most obvious problems facing the Yes representatives?

      You know, currency, royalty, franchise etc…

      Let’s set aside the currency one and just say we’ll be using the Scottish pound and that’s that. The ‘royalty’ one is the stuff of nightmares. Just for argument’s sake, let’s agree that that one won’t be dealt with until Madge has passed on.

      But this franchise business has been more divisive than any other topic here lately, so why not have a serious go at it. It can’t be swept under the carpet indefinitely.

      I’m not neutral on this and I can’t imagine that many of us are, especially if we’ve read the exchanges between Andy Ellis and Mia. But it’s also hard to see where there can be any meeting of minds.

      Please have a look at the link below. It’s about how to go start the process of getting a British passport. I had no idea it was so complex. You need to be a British citizen. But that’s not straightforward. How do you know if you are or not? That’s what the site is for – to help people check the basics before they start the process of applying for a passport.

      If Scotland becomes independent we will have our own passports, right? So we’ll need an application process similar to the one outlined in the link. And that process will have to address the issue of citizenship.

      Right now there must be many Scots who don’t own passports (for all sorts of reasons) and they’d have to go through this process to get one. So why not make it mandatory for citizens to make passport applications before a certain date? That’s not to say they would ever have to pay for a hard copy if they’ve no use for it, but having completed the process enfranchises them. (I know there will be ‘civil rights’ objections to this but what’s the difference between producing a passport number and, say, a National Insurance number?)

      How would the Scottish passport application process look different from the British one?

      (Another obvious benefit of this process being so thorough is that it could gather a lot of the information that the most recent census failed to get.)

      Discussing something as basic as this may help us resolve the franchise issue. Because one thing’s for sure – we have to get it sorted, with every t crossed and i dotted, otherwise we’ll never stop arguing about it and the unionists will milk it endlessly (as we would too and rightly so).

      https://www.gov.uk/check-british-citizenship

    104. Republicofscotland says:

      I agree with Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford, whoever becomes the next Tory leader, Scotland will still lose.

      However its not the nasty Tories that’s holding Scotland back, its the SNP that’s stopping Scotland from leaving this union and going on to fulfil it potential. Self serving tossers like Blackford will always put their interests ahead of the nations, as do the other SNP MPs and MSPs, who I collectively call the Three Wise Monkeys.

      Like I’ve said the Tories are nasty and should never be voted for by Scots, but its a sad day indeed when the Tories can remove a horrible leader, but the SNP’s MPs and MSPs keep their ugly faces stuffed into the taxpayers trough whilst their maniacal leader pursues her own agenda.

      And what of the SNP MSPs that stood down at the last Holyrood elections, I don’t recall even one coming forward and whistleblowing on what’s actually going on within the party.

      Ron L Hubbard would’ve be proud of Sturgeon as she runs a tighter ship than his Scientology cult. Surely there must be one MSP with a spine, or are they utterly self-serving, by their tactiness on what’s going on within the party both apply I think.

    105. Breastplate says:

      IanB,
      You are exactly correct.
      Having Scottish passports would go a long way to understanding who should get a vote or not.

      As I’ve said before on here, there will be restrictions on who votes, it’s necessary.
      Ask yourself why it’s necessary and it comes back to what I was talking about the spirit of every rule regulation or law being more important than the written word.

      We all agree that restrictions are needed but why are restrictions needed, for what reason are they needed?

      Forget the blood and soil nativist remarks from some people, they’re just mindless attacks because they find it difficult to see perspectives different from their own.

    106. Breastplate says:

      Also Ian,
      Some countries allow dual nationality, I don’t think that would be a good idea for Scotland, certainly not initially, anyway.
      I think if you are really concerned for Scotland’s welfare then that’s hardly a big ask.

      It’s probably a major reason why it’s reserved.

    107. Breastplate says:

      On the currency.
      It will 100% be Sterling for a transitional period because it has to be.

      It’s not what we are going to use, it’s for how long? And that will be the same length as a piece of string.

    108. Republicofscotland says:

      So Sturgeon the betrayer of Scots and leader of the SNP cult, found it necessary to tweet about the japes surrounding the race for Tory leadership. I suppose she’s airing her views on the nasty Tory hopefuls safe in the knowledge that her pathetic and totally obedient SNP MPs and MSPs at far to craven and self-serving to even contemplate speaking gout against her, and her failure to deliver us from the union.

      How can one party be so jam packed with spineless and gutless cowards, too afraid or self serving to speak up to save their own country. If the nasty Tories can remove their maniacal leader why can’t the SNP MSPs/MPs do the same for the good of Scotland. What’s wrong with those people have they no self respect or honour.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20275323.nicola-sturgeon-slams-tory-hopefuls-jape-nadhim-zahawis-expense%2F

    109. tamson says:

      If the new Tory leader can generate any significant bounce in support they’ll go for a snap election, relying on the RW press to run a “steady as she goes” narrative and tearing into Labour on women’s rights.

    110. Scott says:

      “4. Specific rules applicable to referendums held at the request of a section of the electorate and to popular initiatives (where they are provided for in the Constitution)

      a. Everyone enjoying political rights is entitled to sign a popular initiative or request for a referendum.

      b. The time-limit for collecting signatures (particularly the day on which the time-limit starts to run and the last day of the time-limit) must be clearly specified, as well as the number of
      signatures to be collected.

      c. Everyone (regardless of whether he or she enjoys political rights) must be entitled to collect signatures.

      d. If authorisation is required in order to gather signatures for popular initiatives or requests for a referendum on public thoroughfares, such authorisation may be refused only in
      specific cases provided for by law, on the basis of overriding public interest and in accordance with the principle of equality.

      e. Payment from private sources for the collection of signatures for popular initiatives and requests for referendums should, as a rule, be prohibited. If permitted, it must be regulated,
      with regard to both the total amount allocated and the amount paid to each person.

      f. All signatures must be checked. In order to facilitate checking, lists of signatures should preferably contain the names of electors registered in the same municipality.

      g. In order to avoid having to declare a vote totally invalid, an
      authority must have the power, prior to the vote, to correct faulty drafting, for example:

      i. when the question is obscure, misleading or suggestive;

      ii. when rules on procedural or substantive validity have been violated; in this event, partial invalidity may be declared if the remaining text is coherent; sub-division may be envisaged to correct a lack of substantive unity.”

      [Source: Venice Commission of the Code of Good Practice on Referendums https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD(2007)008rev-cor-e ]

      Let’s get signing our requests.

    111. Mark Boyle says:

      tamson says:
      13 July, 2022 at 10:54 am

      If the new Tory leader can generate any significant bounce in support they’ll go for a snap election, relying on the RW press to run a “steady as she goes” narrative and tearing into Labour on women’s rights.

      Can we please quit with the “snap election” pish?

      Why would a party with an eighty seat majority go to the country when it hasn’t even served half of its statutory maximum term of office?

    112. Republicofscotland says:

      No snap GE.

      “BORIS Johnson has blocked Labour’s bid to hold a vote of no confidence in the Tory government.

      Keir Starmer’s party planned to table the motion on Tuesday with a vote to follow on Wednesday in the hope of stopping the now caretaker Prime Minister from holding onto his post until September 5, when it has been announced a new party leader will be in place.

      But Downing Street has now told Labour they will not give Starmer time in the House of Commons for the debate and vote to go ahead.

      A senior Labour source told the Mirror: “The Government is refusing to give us time for a vote of no confidence in the Commons despite all the conventions that this should be granted.”

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20274064.boris-johnson-blocks-labour-bid-hold-no-confidence-vote%2F

    113. Republicofscotland says:

      Sturgeon repeatedly refuses to take up homeless charity’s offer to come to Glasgow and see just how many folk and homeless and hungry. The SNP ran Tammany Hall (City chambers) has done very little to alleviate the problem.

      Of course Sturgeon the betrayer had a a wee spruce up of city around the time of the COP26 where she swanned about like the belle of the ball.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heraldscotland.com%2Fnews%2Fhomenews%2F20275647.charity-criticises-first-minister-turning-down-series-invites-witness-plight-homeless%2F

    114. Hatuey says:

      Couldn’t eligibility to vote be determined with a simple blood test? If cholesterol levels are above a certain threshold, you’re good…

      Maybe we could test for “aliens”, like that scene in the movie The Thing when he heats the bit of metal up and sticks it in the blood samples.

      I’m easy either way.

    115. Dan says:

      @ Hatuey

      For the bantz, probably best oor Scottish credentials are checked with both a blood and soil test.
      The price of butter these days may mean oor cholesterol levels could be dropping. But if you’ve traces of haggis and deep fried mars bar in yer poo yer still okay for a vote.

    116. Andy Ellis says:

      But this franchise business has been more divisive than any other topic here lately, so why not have a serious go at it. It can’t be swept under the carpet indefinitely.

      I’m not neutral on this and I can’t imagine that many of us are, especially if we’ve read the exchanges between Andy Ellis and Mia. But it’s also hard to see where there can be any meeting of minds.

      The franchise for voting in a self determination referendum and citizenship of and the franchise in a future independent Scottish state are two different things. Conflating the two doesn’t help resolve the disagreement about whether the self determination referendum franchise should be inclusive and residence based, or exclusive and nativist based, it’s just cart-before-horsery.

      The retrospective application of Scottish post-independence citizenship criteria to the self-determination franchise would be anomalous. Restricting the franchise using nativist criteria like birth, ethnicity or very lengthy residence periods has only been used in cases which are clearly related to de-colonisation such as Timor L’Este and New Caledonia. Doing so in Scotland would make it an outlier, since most self determination referendums since World War 2 have used inclusive residence based criteria for the actual indepence votes, irrespective of future citizenship of the new state. A couple have imposed limited residence criteria of up to 24 months.

      The “planned” citizenship criteria that would have been used had Yes won in 2014 are already known. I don’t recall a lot of discussion or disagreement about them at the time or since. From memory the Scottish government proposed an “inclusive model of citizenship” which meant British citizens living in Scotland, Scottish-born British citizens living outside Scotland, people with Scottish parents or grandparents, and people who had lived in Scotland for at least ten years at some point in their life would be entitled to claim citizenship.

      It is therefore possible that significant numbers of Scots (whether native Scots unionists or “New Scots” from the UK or rest of the world) would either not take up Scottish citizenship, or opt for dual Scots and UK citizenship, assuming both countries were content for them to do so. Obviously, if one or both countries made it hard or impossible to have dual citizenship, that would mean some people had a hard choice. For the record, my personal view is that an independent Scotland should not in general allow dual citizenship.

      Disenfranchising large numbers of “New Scots” from the self determination vote, as some nativists want to do (whether all of them by restricitng the vote to Scots born residents, or just certain cadres by imposing residence crieteria of “X” years) has implications. It would mean that post independence you’d potentially have a large number of people (up to 20% of the electorate depending on what flavour of nativist you are) who had not been allowed a say in whether the country they lived in and called home became independent, but now had to choose what citizenship they should opt for. Doubtless many of those advocating a nativist franchise would seek to exclude most if not all of these New Scots.

      The process and application of passports isn’t the issue, it’s the agreed criteria that count surely? I can’t find figures for Scotland, but the ONS analysis of 2011 census figures suggests 20% of folk in England and Wales don’t have a passport, so presumably it’s likely to be similar for Scotland. Post independence, those without passport who qualify for Scottish citizenship would simply apply for a new Scottish passport if that’s their preference in accordance with whatever criteria/process was developed.

      Those with existing UK passports would be able to “trade them in” …or “up”?…for shiny new Scottish ones. Folk in the diaspora with Scottish parents or grandparents would be able to apply, similar to the pattern in Ireland. Permanent residents in Scotland with “other” passports would also be allowed to apply for citizenship according to agreed criteria.

    117. sarah says:

      O/T: Alba MPs escorted out of Commons, tweets Joanna Cherry in last 20 minutes.

      Anyone got any more detail? It sounds as if Alba were speaking the truth and standing up for Scotland – no-one likes that at Westminster.

    118. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Are you ‘British’ or ‘Scottish’?

      Let’s imagine that you have two passports, one of each. The plane you are on is hijacked. A ‘terrorist’ walks down the aisle with a wee box and all the passengers have to put in their passport. You suspect that the hijackers are probably people who regard the US and Britain as evil.

      Which passport do you put in the box?

    119. Hatuey says:

      Dan, how does the soil test work? I live in a flat.

    120. Scott says:

      FAO Ellis

      Gibraltar had a referendum in 2002 on the question of UK/Spain joint sovereignty.

      Those eligible to vote in the referendum:

      1. Resident Gibraltarians registered in the Register of Gibraltarians under the Gibraltar Status Ordinance.

      2. Resident British Overseas Territories Citizens by virtue of a connection with Gibraltar.

      3. Other nationals who have been ordinarily resident in Gibraltar for not less than 10 years immediately preceding Referendum day.


      Gibraltar, like New Caledonia, is on the list of Non-Self-Governing Territories.

      But, Self-determination referendums are ducks, so franchise restriction is normal.

    121. James says:

      Ellis just keeps on farting the same old tune…
      His Way or No Way.

    122. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Just to be clear – I made that 9.54 suggestion for discussion in good faith. It wasn’t intended to score any points or cause mischief.

      Any responses using the word ‘nativist’ will be ignored.

    123. Dan says:

      @ Ian B

      Need more info as could go either way.
      EG. If your described scenario is plucked from BBC headline style leanings, and the “terrorist” was just a slightly disgruntled individual who happened to be a Scottish Nationalist, then I’d have put my* UK passport in the box.
      * But I don’t actually have a passport the noo so fook knows how I would have got on a plane in the first place.

    124. Andy Ellis says:

      We all agree that restrictions are needed but why are restrictions needed, for what reason are they needed?

      Forget the blood and soil nativist remarks from some people, they’re just mindless attacks because they find it difficult to see perspectives different from their own.

      You and some others might agree that restrictions to the 2014 pattern franchise are needed, but you certainly don’t speak for everyone. Writing off criticism of changing the franchise precedent already used as mindless attacks may reinforce your self-belief in the righteousness of your cause, but it doesn’t help solve the argument. Perhaps Ian Brotherhood is right and there will never be any meeting of minds on the issue: if so, it is down to those on each side to argue their case and convince the movement as a whole which is the correct path.

      Nativists claim that restrictions are needed because the 2014 result was swung from Yes to No by the votes of non-native Scots, which was unfair and contrary either to what happens elsewhere (which many would argue is simply factually wrong) or a sign of Scotland being a colony (which many don’t accept as a fair representation) or simply democratically/morally indefensible (which again, many would take issue with and respond that substituting a exclusive nativist/ethnic franchise for an inclusive civi/residence franchise is much worse).

      It simply isn’t true that disagreements necessarily denote being unable to see the perspectives of others, or being mindless. I’m quite aware of other perspectives and why they think restrictions are needed, I just think they are both morally wrong and politically counter productive. I’ve routinely been denounced by nativists in here for not being a “real” nationalist, or being a unionist plant etc. That hardly speaks to those doing the othering being able to see the perspectives of others or having open minds, does it?

      A lot of heat has been generated, but not it seems much light. Whether the nativist or civic nationalist approach has most support within the movement remains to be seen, and isn’t exactly provable either way absent moves towards an actual vote which few of us expect.

    125. Andy Ellis says:

      Just to be clear – I made that 9.54 suggestion for discussion in good faith. It wasn’t intended to score any points or cause mischief.

      Any responses using the word ‘nativist’ will be ignored.

      Interesting approach to “good faith”. Tone policing because you object to the appellation nativist on the one hand, but being entirely relaxed about people being othered as not being real independence supporters etc because they disagree with your minority view.

      No wonder the movement is spinning its wheels….

    126. Confused says:

      Passing laws to stop rich outsiders just coming in, buying everyone out, then once with sufficient numbers and bloc voting, add local political power to their economic power, so they become entrenched – is possible, you know.

      – NOT YOU SCOTS!! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

      Whitby-ans. Stout yeomen, true born englishman, with rights and freedoms from magna carta. That’s who.

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10913519/Whitby-votes-END-second-home-ownership-2-111-votes-favour-just-157-against.html

      Apparently “NEW WHITBYANS ARE WHITBYANS” is not a “thing” down Whitby. They are not having that, a bit like Don Logan in that gangster movie.

      Who knew it was possible to do this? People getting together and “voting” for “laws” to protect them, which are then passed and enforced by some “legislative body” (?) – how is this possible? You vote for people who then do what they want and don’t listen to you. And referendums are just, wrong; voting on issues, is just wrong, you need to vote for a “representative” who is better than you and decides what it is you need. This is why they get the big bucks. Pete Wishart has 200IQ. Nikki is smarter. And Peter M claims he “always beats the chaser …”

      – this is probably racist or something. I mean both sides are Anglo-Saxons, probably, but accusing folks of racism is never wrong and usually works. Southerners are the New Blacks. Troublesome people from the south you say? … never heard of that, myself.

      Actually, this dangerous outbreak of “populism” has no legal weight whatsoever, so, turned out nice again, at worst a “speed bump” for planning applications. You see the “referendum” was merely advisory … (somewhere Nikki has a brainstorm)

      Who are these people who think their “democratic” rights trump the power of money and the right to private property? Are they communists? People with money can do what they like, these are our values, it’s from the Glorious Revolution, bill of rights, code of hammurabi, somewhere.

      The second home candidates can always come up to Skye, Applecross, Lochaber. No opposition there. Dougie V and the Landward team will even do a bit on you.

      In related news, englanders have discovered the south is a big flood plain and the coastline is crumbling into the sea.

      – one solution would be to move to “higher ground”.

      Top men are looking into this.

    127. Andy Ellis says:

      Contents of email just received from Alba:

      Boris Johnson has no democratic legitimacy to deny the people of Scotland a choice on our own future. For saying that we were today kicked out of the House of Commons. Therefore, we shall now return to Scotland to concentrate our time on a summer campaign for independence.

      Westminster has no intention of listening to Scotland. To regain our independence we must press our Claim of Right and bend whichever UK Government is in power to the will of the people of Scotland.

      A National Convention for independence must now be convened. It should be made up of all of Scotland’s elected Parliamentarians to pursue Scotland’s independence with democratic determination and legitimacy.

      ALBA Party do not intend to sit at Westminster and play their game. We intend to use all the time and resources available to us to help Scotland regain its independence as an immediate priority.

      Help us today by spreading the word to your friends and family by posting your support for ALBA Party on Social Media and urge others to join us on our quest towards independence.

      Tweet your support by clicking here.

      Yours for ALBA,

      Neale Hanvey MP
      ALBA Party Westminster Leader

      Kenny MacAskill MP
      ALBA Party

      Alba Party
      http://www.albaparty.org/

    128. Robert Louis says:

      Well done Alba party, for calling out the colonial boorishness and contempt shown to Scotland by England’s wee parliament in Westminster.

      Just a pity that their is NOBODY in the SNP willing to do the same. I am astonished at just how little anger the SNP have shown over what is being done to Scotland.

      In the history of a country, their does come a time, when quite literally, enough is enough. Let’s see even more civil disobedience. Let’s see England’s colonial parliament find denying democracy to Scotland to be a headache.

      London just doesn’t care. And why should they? The SNP are still all sitting in the English parliament, nodding politely, and occasionally whining ‘it;s no fair’. No doubt they tutted at the behaviour of ALBA, such is their grovelling indulgence of Westminster.

      London has nothing but contempt for Scotland and its people, and they certainly don’t care about the SNP OR Nicola Sturgeon.

      Sick of English colonial abuse of Scotland, just sick of it. At what point, does a country like Scotland say, NO MORE!

      We do not NEED ‘permission’ from England to hold an independence referendum, we just need politicians with a bit of fight in them, like Kenny and Neale today. The Scottish claim of right is intact, and enshrined in Scots law and the treaty of union.

    129. Dan says:

      Quiz time. Who said this : “Tightening the criteria in ways that excluded temporary residents is a no brainer…

    130. Robert Louis says:

      Wholeheartedly agree with setting up Scottish convention for independence. It is now urgent. Really, really urgent.

    131. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Nativist’ is a synonym for ‘xenophobe’.

      It is a slur and there’s no place for it in any civilised discussion.

    132. Republicofscotland says:

      On the Labour VONC blocked by Johnson…well.

      “Government tables no-confidence vote in itself after blocking Labour bid.”

      https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/government-tables-no-confidence-vote-in-itself-after-blocking-labour-bid/ar-AAZwVjT?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=70926c4fd02646f5b2eb1c1297002f6d

    133. robbo says:

      What a prick that Hoyle is. Look at the venom in his face. I’m surprised he didn’t ask for them to be hung, drawn and quartered. Fucking disgrace to have to listen to that Corby toady.

      https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1547180896800890882?s=20&t=vK5D6WgC3V0IgEIWzNXGWQ

    134. Scott says:

      Dan says:
      13 July, 2022 at 1:17 pm

      Quiz time. Who said this : “Tightening the criteria in ways that excluded temporary residents is a no brainer…“

      Andy Ellis, btl on ‘Remembering Pete Wishart’

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/remembering-pete-wishart/#comment-2696244

    135. Mark Boyle says:

      Oh Homeless Project Scotland, you silly people.

      You can almost guarantee a certain skeleton in its closet will be on the front pages of The Voice Of Sturgeon before the week’s out. 🙁

    136. Bind Squirrel says:

      @ Peter A Bell 12 July, 2022 at 2:20 pm
      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      12 July, 2022 at 2:14 pm

      Wings says: “If the government steps down and no alternative government can command the support of Parliament – which the SNP and Greens could ensure by voting against any proposed one – there is no government and an election is triggered.”

      Peter A Bell says: “How could the SNP and Greens vote against it when there is no parliament sitting?”

      Not sure who is right here but whether or not is triggers an immediate vote the end result is the same. We take charge of the very next election. In fact the British delaying it will only result in a more motivated and momentous independence campaign.

    137. Andy Ellis says:

      Andy Ellis, btl on ‘Remembering Pete Wishart’

      So what? Nobody has to accept things are carved in stone. I think it’s entirely sensible to enact common sense measures that might enjoy broad support to close off obvious oddities like students having 2 votes, or people with multiple homes. For the generally trivial numbers involved it seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but that’s nativism for you….

      I’ve also said I could personally be persuaded to have up to 24 months as a residence criteria, because it seems proportionate and there’s a precedent for it in other referendums. From memory Stu Campbell also supported common sense basic changes despite having a similar outlook on the whole issue.

      Even in the unlikely event there is another referendum, it’s overwhelmingly likely to be held on the same franchise as 2014, whatever the nativists think. You’ve always represented a small fringe with regressive views on this particular issue, if not on others, and will – thankfully – continue to do so.

    138. Breastplate says:

      Ffs Ellis,
      When you read words, try to understand them.
      You have already conceded that restrictions are needed unless you’ve change your mind and you believe anybody from anywhere can vote in Scottish elections and referendums.

      Again, I’m not writing off criticism, I like to differing views.
      I was writing off gratuitous attacks from people who can’t deal with other perspectives.

    139. Hatuey says:

      Doesn’t it feel weird having your views on Scottish independence represented in Westminster… Alba with only a couple of MPs has done more in a few weeks than all those colonial SNP asswipes have done in 7 years.

      We should be talking about blood and oil, not blood and soil.

    140. Scott says:

      “I’ve also said I could personally be persuaded to have up to 24 months as a residence criteria (sic), because it seems proportionate and there’s a precedent for it in other referendums.” – Andy Ellis

      There’s a precedent of 10 years residence from Gibraltar referendum of 2002.

      There’s a precedent of 20 years from New Caledonia referendum of 2018.

      As said previously, you’d actively campaign against independence if the franchise isn’t to your liking.

    141. Republicofscotland says:

      A slightly longer version of Hoyle doing all his antics, as MacAskill and Hanvey stand up for Scotland, whilst Blackford and his SNP MPs cower like timid mice at the thought of actually backing a real indy party’s MPs.

      https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20275820.pmqs-alba-mps-escorted-commons-major-disruption%2F

    142. Dan says:

      @ Hatuey

      Hey, I’m still talking gas on the other thread… 😉
      All input to add to the discussion and expand folk’s knowledge is welcome…

    143. James Che says:

      Ian Brotherhood.

      Ellis still name calling Scots nativist is indeed a a slur. And he knows it while hopeing it is going under Rev Stu’s radar.
      Scot Are a race of ethic minority in their own country of Scotland called Scots,

    144. Republicofscotland says:

      Weak Pishfart, calls standing up for Scotland (Hanvey and MacAskill today PMQs) embarrassing and awful.

      No doubt Pishfart thought Hoyle did a brilliant job, after all Pishfart longs to be Speaker of the House.

      https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1547200035565322240

    145. Breastplate says:

      Well done to Kenny MacAskill and Neale Hanvey.

      The SNP MPs should be getting themselves chucked out of there at every opportunity and causing as much mayhem as possible, the snivelling cowards that they are.

      We really need to leave this so called “Union” for good.

    146. Breastplate says:

      James Che,
      It was more the personal attacks rather than the general name calling he didn’t like.
      Presumably because it became a tit for tat procession of inane comments.

    147. Blind Squirrel says:

      Oops I meant:

      Not sure who is right here, but whether or not it triggers an immediate vote, the end result is the same.

    148. Breeks says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      13 July, 2022 at 2:16 pm
      A slightly longer version of Hoyle doing all his antics, as MacAskill and Hanvey stand up for Scotland…

      Seems like ALBA has got a pair, but the SNP don’t.

    149. Effigy says:

      The Guardian has some interesting pieces today.

      It claims the U.K. Covid Death stats just topped 200,000?
      Gov figures seldom updated these days show 181,000?
      The Excess Death Total is apparently approaching 110,000?

      The Tories tell us how well they managed Covid?
      Expect up to 20,000 Deaths we were told at the outset.

      Well approaching 300,000 deaths doesn’t fall into the Well Done category.
      It’s the highest death toll in Europe and deaths per million of population well above countries
      like France and Germany.

      Next they list some of the Tories friends making massive profits from PPE contracts although they had no experience in the field and £9 Billion wasted on unusable garbage provided.

      The cost of this farce and the interest on it will be paid off by your Grand Kids.

      Let’s keep the clown who got us here in power because he says so?

    150. James Che says:

      Boo Boo Boo To the SNP not walking out of westminster, for not backing Alba.for not backing the Scots.

    151. James Che says:

      Daddy bears, ” coming together and standing united” speal didn’t last long, after the AOUB march did it.

    152. lothianlad says:

      Well done ALBA!!!
      SNP – Hang you heads in shame! Better still Fuck off and make way for a real party of Independence!
      History will judge these cowards as the new parcel of rogues in a nation!

    153. James Che says:

      Breeks.

      Opps I didn’tbrealise playground mentality of name calling and branding was still ok.
      Goes to show ,

    154. Effigy says:

      Hoping someone can highlight this story

      I’ve tried my MP, Trade Union and even Martin Lewis but all too busy.

      I use my own car and fuel to visit my employer’s clients.
      For the first 10,000 miles I claim 45p per mile.
      After that I get 25p.

      I was shocked to discover these were the rates set by the Tories for HMRC way back in 2011
      This was to cover fuel, vehicle depreciation and things like Insurance, tyres, exhausts, servicing, MOTs etc.

      At 30 miles per gallon and 4.55Litres in a gallon I’m paying £199 per litre.
      That’s around £9.00 per gallon when I get 30 x 25p = £7.50 from my employer the maximum HMRC allow.

      No pay rise in 4 years, double digit inflation and I now give money to pay for my employers business miles.

      There must be hundreds of thousands who face this.
      Do they threaten to resign, do they demand a company vehicle and fuel card and leave it at work.
      Do we need more vehicles on the road?

      Next it’s back to bring your own coal to work for the office boiler.

    155. lothianlad says:

      Weak Pishart – The personification of the groveling house Jock!
      Obviously he’s competing with Bullshit Connelly to be the house of Winsor’s favorite court jester!

    156. Republicofscotland says:

      So when did promoting the family unit become disgusting, ridiculous and outrageous.

      https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/straight-pride-poster-glasgow-church-24472280

    157. Breeks says:

      The protest they were thrown out over….

      https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1547202777100713985?cxt=HHwWgoCwyc6u4vgqAAAA

      @JNHanvey
      : “Why should we respect the rules of the Commons when Westminster will not respect Scottish democracy?”

      @KennyMacAskill
      : “Scotland’s voice will be heard & the people of Scotland will prevail. It’s time for independence.”

      ALBA standing up for Scotland. – As usual.

    158. lothianlad says:

      I was beginning to think of differences between weak pishart and WGD…… I couldn’t think of any real differences except, pishart has a handsome Westminster salary, WGD bleats whilst shaking the charity can!

    159. James Che says:

      When we leave the union, perhaps we could leave the snp down south in the failing westminster.

    160. lothianlad says:

      what a loathsome individual weak pishart is! To think what the SNP has done to Scotland under sturgeon, when we should be Independent already, is sickening!

    161. lothianlad says:

      “When we leave the union, perhaps we could leave the snp down south in the failing westminster”.

      Seems like they will be happy with that!

    162. Breeks says:

      ALBA might have a miserable share of the vote, but they’ve got 99% of the heart.

    163. Hatuey says:

      Scott, what you find out quite quickly with Ellis is that he just makes stuff up. People on here are pretty lazy when it comes to validating basic facts. I’ve read your last few posts carefully on the franchise stuff and you’ve basically destroyed the foundations of everything he has said on the subject.

      But please don’t assume that means I’m on any particular side in that debate or that I even give a fuck about it.

      I’m not inclined to argue about the terms of a referendum that probably won’t happen, or at least looks unlikely to happen in the next 5 years, just as I’m not inclined to argue about what might qualify you as a citizen in a country that doesn’t even exist.

      Anyway, if you have a look at what he says about international recognition and the UN stuff, you’ll find that is also a pile of crap.

    164. lothianlad says:

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/07/12/this-is-intentional-sabotage/

      Read this from Ian Lawson to see just how serious the SNP are about independence!

    165. Robert Hughes says:

      ” Doesn’t it feel weird having your views on Scottish independence represented in Westminster… Alba with only a couple of MPs has done more in a few weeks than all those colonial SNP asswipes have done in 7 years.”

      Correct , H .

      Imagine ( it will take a Borgesian imagination to do so ) every SNP MP doing likewise , every fckn day ; inviting , relishing , the f’naw f’naw faux outrage , disrupting constantly the idiotic bollocks that passes for WM politesse until that shithouse gets the message – * wur no playn yer game anymer * .

      Instead we have Iggy Blackfraud n the Stooges – personified by Scotland’s longest-serving parliamentary worm Wishart – glued to their seats , no doubt tut tutting that two of their fellow Scottish MPs have shown a bit of defiance and ” fuck this ” spirit

    166. Ruby says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      13 July, 2022 at 9:54 am

      If we have this huge expanse of boredom in front of us, why not try to sort out some of the most obvious problems facing the Yes representatives?

      You know, currency, royalty, franchise etc…

      I agree with the idea of doing something rather than sitting around being bored.

      With regard to the franchise how much control do we have over that?

    167. James Che says:

      Republicofscotland.

      Family values plummited when the NS and the snp turned globalist following every extreme ideology that wreaks havoc on people and citizens around the globe.

      These are ideologies of the rich and they do not work.

      For instance over the last four or five years all gas and oil sources were being closed down and dismantled in Scotland to bring all energy to be provided by a very few big industries, then they picked a fight with one of those providers. ( deliberately)?

      Brexit and its purpose an food shortage supplies seem to be working along the same lines in britain,
      Lockdowns work towards that same goal,
      Westminster is playing its part after WEF meetings. NS is part of that system after meetings in America.

      We are meant to only observe what is in front of us, the small problems like party gate, the leadership contestants, are given subjects to occupy us, gossip, coronation street soaps style in westminster.

      We need to leave before britain finishes. Taking Scotland with it.

    168. Ruby says:

      https://twitter.com/i/status/1547184297659998208

      https://twitter.com/i/status/1547184297659998208

      Now you’re talkin’!
      Well done to these guys!

      I wonder if John Main will be asking

      Where’s the difficulty in following the rules?

    169. sarah says:

      Unbelievable. Speaker asks if the House agrees to suspend the Alba MPs. SNP say nothing.

      What a despicable bunch they are. I had thought Joanna Cherry, Douglas Chapman and Angus Brendan Macneil were better than that.

    170. James Che says:

      Lothianlad.

      It is time to ditch the SNP.
      Time to ditch the devolved government that is passing this nonsense.
      It seems the SNP do not believe in Scots Sovereignty of freedom to Choose.

      When you observe what has happened to other bloggers it begins to make sense, they are either caving in or going woke..

      These global subjects of using, one set of people as the enemy to the other.

    171. Hatuey says:

      Is it a whole year since the police opened their investigation into the missing indyref funds?

      I suppose, when you think about it, there’s a certain convenience in stating that the next general election will be treated as a referendum… certainly it blurs the lines.

      I think I’m starting to see how this politics game works…

      Vote Labour if you want socialism.

      Vote SNP if you want independence.

      Vote Conservative if you like the status quo.

      Vote Green to save the world.

      They’re all just taking the piss.

    172. Bob Mack says:

      SNP. Self nurturing parasites.

      Well done Alba. If the speaker was having to throw the SNP out every day we might get somewhere.

    173. James Che says:

      We need to separate ourselves from this globalist wokeness that lies within the leader parties in Scotland, it will bring Scotland to its knees in a short period of time.
      Unless the people do something,

      We cannot tie ourselves to the Scottish devolved government its civil servants and the snp any longer. And I do not understand how Alex’s is so naive for such a experienced politician to want to have such a strong connection to the SNP.
      We all have observed how pally old nick is with monarchy with perverted Epstien aquaintences such as the Clintons as well, with the picture of her sitting smiling with Mr Gates,
      The snp sitting all friendly an happy in Westminster.
      These people connections are the snp’s connections,
      That should tell you and I all we need to know about the snp, the devolved government and how they work us.
      Civil servants are what they say on the tin, servants that are civil to the establishment that pays their wages
      It is time for a “alternative ” government, detached from the devolved government, not just a alternative party.

      And to ensure that it never ever again in Scotland falls under a dictatorship, or can be manipulated to serve a few at the top,
      It has to be what it says it is.

      [ THE SOVEREIGN SCOTS PEOPLE’S ASSEMBLY]

      The title name will always help keep checks and balances in the future.

    174. McDuff says:

      At last an independence party with some testicles. We need lots more of this rebellious behaviour unlike the SNP cosy Goldilocks brigade. I agree with other posters who condemned the SNP for their silence thus siding with Unionist Westminster rather than screaming support for their independence brothers.

    175. Ruby says:

      When I watched the video of the speaker
      https://twitter.com/i/status/1547180896800890882

      ‘I thought OMG that guy is going to have a stroke.’

      https://tinyurl.com/4zhakk84

      I think the speaker maybe having a stroke. If you go to the end of the above video (about a minute from the end) you will hear him slurring his speak and mispronouncing words.

      He says Kenny Maskill.

    176. twathater says:

      @ breeks and north cheil i’m sorry I cannot join in your celebrations of Phillipa Whitford , our education and health systems are abysmal and no attempts at diversionary attacks on englands services alters that , WHY do snp politicians continuously attempt to cover up their governmental incompetence by pointing out that england’s or Wales’s incompetence is worse than ours, HOW is that meant to reassure anyone , our shite government is better than your shite government , or our shite politicians are better than your shite politicians , big fucking deal

      Whitford alongside Cherry and the supposed good guys in the Scum Nonce Party ???? have sat there in silence and allowed a dangerous deviant and her minions to lay waste to our country , instead of showing ANY INTEGRITY or HONESTY and exposing the corruption and lies they have drawn their plentiful salaries and expenses and cowardly sat silent

    177. Breeks says:


      twathater says:
      13 July, 2022 at 6:06 pm

      @ breeks and north cheil i’m sorry I cannot join in your celebrations of Phillipa Whitford , our education and health systems are abysmal and no attempts at diversionary attacks on englands services alters that …

      I agree. She did well enough in fairness, but I just posted the link because I got a giggle at the end when she said if we don’t change, the planet “gets it”…lol

    178. Stoker says:

      Scott says on 13 July, 2022 at 2:10 pm
      “I’ve also said I could personally be persuaded to have up to 24 months as a residence criteria (sic), because it seems proportionate and there’s a precedent for it in other referendums.” – Andy Ellis

      “There’s a precedent of 10 years residence from Gibraltar referendum of 2002.

      There’s a precedent of 20 years from New Caledonia referendum of 2018.

      As said previously, you’d actively campaign against independence if the franchise isn’t to your liking.”
      —–
      Anybody putting conditions on whether or not they’ll support Scotland taking back its right of self-determination is seriously suspect in my book. You either do or you don’t.

      Furthermore, ‘Hatuey’ doesn’t miss and covers the whole of the nails head with his/her comment further up thread at 3:24pm on 13/07/22.

      Ellis repeatedly called for ‘The Rev’ to just call it a day and shut this site down. What serious independence supporter would want the greatest ever pro-indy resource shut down and access to those wanting to learn denied? He has since been constantly agitating to get his wish granted.

      As my old granny used to say, “He’d start a fight in an empty hoose.”
      —–
      Scott, are you ‘The Sneaky One’? 🙂



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