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The dead carrot sketch

Posted on January 17, 2021 by

There’s literally nothing about this that isn’t toe-curlingly embarrassing:

The only challenge is knowing where to start.

Firstly, we suppose, there’s the small fact that the entire bloody SNP is supposed to be an “independence taskforce”, all the time. The party wasn’t formed as a vehicle for Nicola Sturgeon to swan around doing selfies while tinkering ineffectually with a few administrative chores handed down to it from Westminster.

Secondly there’s the revelation in the tissue-thin article that this “taskforce” in fact consists of one person, (identity yet to be revealed), who will work with “existing staff and strategists”, if for some inexplicable reason they hadn’t been doing so already.

But mostly it’s that we’ve heard all this before.

We heard it four and a half years ago when “Nicola Sturgeon pulled the trigger on an emergency independence referendum”. That’s one slow trigger.

We heard it again nine months later when she “called” the new vote.

We heard it two and a half years ago when we were told Boris Johnson becoming PM would bring about the second referendum. (SPOILER: he did and it didn’t.)

We heard it two years ago when she told us to “get ready” for indyref 2.

Shortly afterwards we were told the big “showdown” was imminent:

Almost immediately there was an accompanying “new campaign”. We haven’t yet been able to establish whether a “taskforce” was assigned or not.

Maybe there wasn’t, which would explain why a month later the new referendum had been put back to “within the next two years”.

There are still 15 weeks of that left, technically, but of course we already know for certain that that deadline won’t be met and it won’t happen before the election. Even though she specifically told us it would be.

And that it was “inevitable”.

Although that soon slipped to “likely”:

But no matter – we had a “new vision” and a “path to victory”.

And so we apparently entered “the biggest ever campaign to make the economic case” at that point, and to develop a “credible” plan on currency. Anyone know how those went? Those things are now undisputed by anyone, yeah?

We were told that the 2019 election was the important one.

And that indyref2 absolutely had to happen in 2020.

Because, quaintly, apparently there was going to be a Labour government that we’d be able to hold to ransom.

Demands were issued in advance. People can’t refuse demands, can they?

When yet another SNP landslide arrived, the opposition was ordered to “unite” behind indyref2. (SPOILER: they did not unite behind indyref2.)

But Corbyn’s complete crushing in the election hadn’t put Holyrood off, and it duly voted a second time for another indyref, with no more effect than the previous time.

Meanwhile a microscopic virus was already riding towards Nicola Sturgeon’s rescue from Wuhan in China – the first confirmed cases had already reached the UK as Holyrood voted. But even as COVID-19 took hold, on the day Scotland played its last international sports fixture in front of a crowd, we were assured, absurdly, that the vote would be happening that year:

By the time the country had already endured several months of social distancing and self-isolation, the timetable had been grudgingly pushed back to “autumn 2021”, even though there couldn’t possibly be a referendum by this autumn even if Boris Johnson handed us one on a plate the day after the election in May – assuming that there IS an election in May.

And quietly the promises underneath the big shouty rabble-rousing headlines were being downgraded to “well, we’ll have some sort of a plan within six months, honest”.

And almost a year after the election in which we were told (once again) that an SNP landslide would make it impossible for Westminster to refuse, Westminster was still refusing, apparently blissfully unaware that their 100%-successful attempts to block a new vote were “doomed to fail”. (At some unspecified point in the future.)

Because somehow it’s always the NEXT election that really matters.

It’s always the NEXT election Westminster won’t be able to resist.

Seemingly because we beat Israel and Serbia on penalties at football.

The cold hard fact is that the current leadership of the SNP has no more clue how to achieve a second referendum today than it did in June 2016. But it does, apparently, have a limitless supply of carrots to dangle in front of the endlessly gullible donkeys who take every headline in The National as a statement of fact.

There’s little sign yet of the donkeys growing weary of the carrots, garnished as they are by a series of polls whose Yes majorities, by an extraordinary coincidence, date from almost exactly the day of the first coronavirus lockdown (and, funnily enough, the day Alex Salmond was acquitted of all charges at the High Court in Edinburgh).

The faithful, of course, attribute those polls not to the pandemic but to the incredible leadership and personal strategic genius of Nicola Sturgeon, despite the inconvenient fact that she’d been First Minister for over four years by the time the virus showed up without her strategic genius having budged the polls by so much as a millimetre.

Should she somehow survive the two inquiries into the Scottish Government’s conduct over the Alex Salmond affair – which this site still considers an implausible outcome – and lead the SNP into another victorious election and yet another indyref refusal by Westminster, it’ll be fascinating to see if the carrots still retain their allure.

Because from here, readers, they’re starting to smell pretty rotten.

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    1. 17 01 21 13:57

      The dead carrot sketch | speymouth

    345 to “The dead carrot sketch”

    1. Ross says:

      The National is a comic. People don’t buy papers solely by political persuasion but even if they did you want quality, not sycophancy.

    2. PeterS says:

      So – the same old can gets kicked even further down the road!

    3. Ian McCubbin says:

      I went on to some of Facebooks independence posts and all the Nica fan club denouncing nyone who criticises her or suggests she lied to Alex Salmond inquiry.
      Of course she did nt. They will still believe the call to Indyref 2 again.
      Fortunately a few sensible thinkers agree with your views Stu.
      I outlined in emails all your points with a friend who was sceptical about NS.
      Her conclusion NS has been working for Westminster all along.
      I neither agreed nor disagreed with her view.

    4. Effijy says:

      Rather than one anonymous leader for campaign number 10,
      couldn’t we have all the MSPs, MPs, Civil Servants, COPF and the
      Lord Advocate work as the Independence task force?

      Unless this new person, who will need to be Ms Speirs or a Trans
      representative have all the powers of Superman, sorry, SuperTransPerson,
      then they will be another fart in the wind.

    5. Morag says:

      I pulled that out of my letterbox this morning and I swear my toes actually curled.

    6. kapelmeister says:

      Ain’t no sunshine ’til she’s gone.

    7. Stoker says:

      They really are taking the piss aren’t they. Perfect example why this useless c@nt Sturgeon should NOT be allowed to hold both posts as Scotland’s First Minister & leader of the Scottish Neverever Party. Get her out &/or appoint Cherry as SNP leader & chief strategist for indy. Preferably someone who believes an S30 isn’t the answer. Someone who actually *WILL* protect Scotland and our sovereignty/rights.

    8. P says:

      Sometimes the truth hurts – a lot.
      There’s no mistaking the messages conveyed by those front pages though.
      And now there’s a Keith Brown led task force to play pretend ffs?

    9. Dan says:

      There’s been a typo by The National, should read:

      SNP MaskForce – Stuffin’ wilted carrots intae auld Mars Bar wrappers tae disguise them and make them appear mair tasty tae the punters.

    10. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I assume this “Taskforce” will be as effective as the Rebuttal Unit led by Keith Brown has been!

    11. McHaggis69 says:

      Here is my own view.

      SNP win in May.
      Indy2 vote will be in the manifesto.
      The FM survives the current ‘issues’ (everything that follows depends on that).
      As the covid19 pandemic gets (somewhat) under control towards autumn, the FM signals s30 request.
      PM bats it away.
      SNP enter into about 2 years worth of legal wrangling with WM.
      All the while, with the pandemic over and brexit problems fading, polls begin to shift back to people’s comfort zone.
      Referendum 2025.
      ‘Yes’ loses by 51% to 49%.
      Back to square 1.

    12. Mac says:

      Just an aside but the National is owned by the same group that owns the Herald. So I am very cautious about relying on it.

      Yes I think it is targeted / marketed at YES voters but I don’t believe it is really ‘for’ Independence. There is a big difference between the two.

      The National will subtly undermine independence as best it can and then outright betray independence when it matters most, as her ‘sister paper’ the Herald did. A lot of people used to think that was a pro independence paper as well, pre 2014.

    13. Doug Bryce says:

      The choice is simple. SNP or unionist party.

      Fwiw : I believe delaying IndyRef2 makes independence more likely

      1) post Brexit support for independence rising
      2) the Brexit deal gives clarity there need not be a hard border after independence. Northern Ireland has now set important precedent.

      The worst outcome for Scotland would be rushing IndyRef2 then losing narrowly again.

      For sure, now Brexit has happened, the SNP now need to be forceful on issue. Would love to see claim of right properly tested in constitutional court of law.

    14. Wee Crabbit Bas says:

      More tissue-thin articles inside the comic, in between the digital subs ads, puzzle pages and fitba. Subscription patience wearing thin.

    15. Marie Clark says:

      Well their”TASKFORCE” launch in the National to great fanfare, has seemingly not impressed anyone.

      If the SNP read the BTL comments, they won’t be happy bunnies. “We’ve heard it a’ before”, “Why have you no done this four or five years ago” etc.

      They also seem to have lost touch with the yes movment. We don’t need to be “Fired up”, we’ve never gone away, where the hell have you been a’ this time though. Same auld song, same ba’ being kicked into the long grass.

      They really do think that we’re stupid.

    16. Lorna Campbell says:

      Only a plebiscitary election with the Manifesto main policy being, in the event of a win (seats, not votes, which is the essence of our electoral-based democracy) that we open negotiations with Westminster immediately thereafter. Nothing else will hold water now. It has been that fkucg second referendum that has been the problem since 19 September, 2014. We never needed a PRE referendum. We don’t need a PRE referendum. Either in domestic or international law.

      The first one was possible only because Alex Salmond managed to negotiate one with Westminster, otherwise there would not have been one. Having the ‘gold standard’ S30 Order/Edinburgh Agreement in 2014 made sense then, but there was never the slightest chance of getting a second like that. Not a snowball’s chance in hell. An advisory referendum is no better, and can be struck down because, again, we would be handing the initiative to Westminster.

      There are now only two ways to go: a plebiscitary election, or the Treaty route. Either or both will involve confrontation with Westminster; they will involve haggling and horse trading (because we cannot wish away the Treaty which is a two-way partnership between Scotland and England); and we will need to have the best – the very best strategists and constitutional experts on board. Not the well-paid people who squat in the SNP and have done absolutely nothing thus far. We need new blood, fresh expertise, and we need it from the people who deal day in, day out, with constitutional law as it is affected by international law.

      Above all, we need to stop listening to those who tell us the Treaty no longer exists or that it is wholly in England’s favour. Those are self-serving lies. LIES. We need to raise a middle digit – in the nicest possible way – to both Unionists and the puke-inducingly faithful within the SNP and the wider YES movement who whinge that a plebiscitary election is not possible. It is not only possible, it is the only constitutional route other than the Treaty that Scotland has within its grasp.

      The SNPG has the power NOW to hold a plebiscitary election – no court cases, no down on bended knee before Johnson. Likewise, the Treaty is ours as much as it is England’s. Enough of the acquiescence. No more vague promises of jam tomorrow. Action NOW. Get that policy right at the top of the Manifesto for May so that no one is in any doubt about our intentions, and, if we win, we are independent. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.

    17. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “SNP enter into about 2 years worth of legal wrangling with WM.”

      This bit isn’t very plausible, since after the Keatings case the legal issue should already have been settled one way or the other.

    18. Dave M says:

      The National is a waste of time. Their headline is on an almost weekly rotation cycle, and the journalism is wafer-thin. They have some good columnists, but the four pages worth of letters are full of the same seven or eight names each day. It was an utterly wasted opportunity.

    19. David Wardrope says:

      I wonder if this new task force will begin to deplete the £500,000 ring-fenced indy fund.

    20. AnneDon says:

      On 31st January 2020, Nicola Sturgeon gave a speech which made it clear she was not planning an independence referendum, despite the claims made the month before in the General Election. She knocked the wind out of Yessers in a way no unionist had ever managed.

      By March last year, before the pandemic arrived, there was still no sign that the SNP spring election had been organised.

      There is no plan. There is no strategy.

    21. stonefree says:

      As I quickly went down the Comic list I notice on the Scotsman the McGarry picture, £25,000 for dipping the till??
      And thought why is she not in the upper echelons of the SNP hierarchy? The skill set is there.
      I have little doubt , the Sturgeon Group will be rattling the cans to “continue the fight and struggle for independence”
      Instead of this pish, How about the MPs and MSPs throw 10% of their salary into the Sturgeon tub

    22. Stoker says:

      @ Mac on 17 January, 2021 at 12:15 pm

      Yes! Very true and most of us are aware of The National and have our serious doubts about it, and justifiably so, but someone within The SNP/ScotGov are always feeding them these lines in the first place so from that perspective we cannot blame that rag. This stinks to me of someone testing the waters or just feeding more fake hope.

      I’ve also just been informed on Twitter that the new apparent ‘Plan-B’ is to head for a 2026 Plebiscite. They can feck right off with that one. IF true that means the can is being kicked further down the road and it requires we keep those Murrell b@st@rds in power meantime. Don’t think so!

    23. Iain Donald says:

      A perfectly accurate summary of the SNP under Nicola Sturgeon and her ilk. They need to go before it is too late (which is coming at us fast).

    24. Bob Mack says:

      “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity” Martin luther King.

      Nicola has such a following. They will ignore this evidence and proclaim she is working on it behind the scenes. All is in hand.

      The task force will face the same fate as most royal navy boats these days. Leaky and mostly in dry dock for repair.

    25. robertknight says:

      Anyone got a needle and thread?

      I think one of those buttons Nicola Sturgeon thinks I have up the back of my head is coming loose… stuffing all over the place!

    26. Muscleguy says:

      The interesting thing about the first poll graph is that DK’s hardly move, perhaps gone up very slightly at the end there. At first reading it’s Noes becoming Yes directly, except the lumpiness of the DK line compared to the other two strongly suggests a No – DK – Yes trajectory.

      Towards the end of my National subscription a couple of years ago now I found myself constantly castigating them in the comments for expectations management on behalf of the SNP with occasional Green interleaving.

      Things have not improved. We complain about BBC propaganda, we seem to have a propaganda outlet of our very own. There’s feck all actual properly investigated news in the National, just endless opinion pieces. It’s a printed collection of blog pieces with some sport attached, not much more.

    27. Effijy says:

      The year 2021 was identified in 2014 as the period where the
      Scaremongered pensions would have departed in significant
      Numbers and the pro independence youth become eligible to vote.

      We have the perfect storm with the lying adulterer as PM who makes it
      Clear he hates Scots, Blacks and Muslims.

      We see every aspect of the Vow Broken

      We see all the Brexit promised broken

      We have had 10 years of Tory Austerity

      Complete incompetence and corruption with Westminster’s handling of Covid.

      Labour is shredded.

      EU citizenship ripped from us against our will.

      What else do we hope for the show why we must be rid of Tory Westminster rule?

    28. John says:

      See that plan B which could be a plebiscite in 2026, give your 2nd vote to an indy list party. Can call snap election any time for a plebiscite election, keep voting the same SNP1 and SNP2, you will get the same, carrots.

    29. Annie 621 says:

      They obviously don’t practice
      ‘being in the now’

      It’s easier to fool..
      and so on.

    30. And spouse says:

      I think at the next March (if it happens) AUOB should officially invite, in an open letter, all SNP MSPs to March along and also to have NS give a speech.

    31. Peter A Bell says:

      When waiting becomes the strategy all you do is wait. Your whole organisation comes to be geared to waiting. All your advisers and managers are thinking only in terms of ways to justify waiting- because that is the strategy.

      Pretty soon, waiting becomes the only thing you’re capable of. Because while you’ve been waiting your ability to act has atrophied.

    32. And spouse says:

      And if they dinnae accept, get Big Eck for the speech.

    33. Josef Ó Luain says:

      @ Doug Bryce

      All major decisions in life, to whatever extent, are a gamble.

      No gamble, no gain, or loss. Stasis of the will carries no chance of loss or gain nor, indeed, odds.

    34. Muscleguy says:

      @Doug Bryce

      Your optimism is replaced, Brexit will soon become yesterdays news with folk struggling to get by with Covid and job losses. It will fade into normality. I can see the sot Yessers sinking back into DK very easily.

    35. Prasad says:

      The 15 most notable lies of Donald Trump’s presidency

      ‘The most hucksterish lie: That plan was coming in two weeks
      Trump’s big health care plan was eternally coming in “two weeks.” So were a bunch of other plans and announcements.
      Trump is, at his core, a huckster. Every moment of his presidency was a chance for him to sell someone on something, whether or not that something actually existed. And if they asked when they could actually see the magic elixir he said was being brewed just over there behind the curtain, he would just have to delay them until they forgot about it. ‘

      https://archive.vn/pa9Mi#selection-3291.0-3307.351

    36. Bob Mack says:

      Stagnation,

      Thats the very word.

    37. Kat says:

      Don’t get me wrong I like carrots ? but even donkeys can be stubborn. So unless the SNP actually name the date, not just a vague year to be confirmed by Westminster, they will NOT be getting my vote. ?

      Especially not with all their woke nonsense & totalitarian leanings. They’re starting to make the Tories look liberal FFS.

      I’ll be paying this task force no heed but I will be paying close attention to the Labour leadership contest though. Who knows maybe they’ll get it right this time lol. ?

    38. Liz says:

      It’s a fucking insult to our intelligence. No more support from me until either, Sturgeon goes or plebiscite HE21.

      Still far too many, oor Nicola types

    39. Tannadice Boy says:

      The SNP use the words Independence referendum as a ‘Power of Affirmation’ and will continue to use this tactic because it has worked successfully for them in the past. Tell them they are standing on the edge of a political edifice and you will be laughed at or ridiculed. So until they fail at the ballot box they will keeping do it. The grand old of Duke of York and his 10000 men springs to mind. I wouldn’t back a penny on an Independence referendum happening during the next session of Parliament under the current leadership.

    40. Doug Bryce says: “The choice is simple. SNP or unionist party.

      WRT action & outcomes on independence, the SNP’s record under Sturgeon leadership is indistinguishable from that of any yoon party. A vote for a Sturgeon-led SNP in the May election will be a vote to preserve the Union, not to end it.

      To labour the point, the SNP under Sturgeon is a Unionist party and its policy in government will be pro-Union. Currently there is no* pro-independence party fielding candidates on the constituency ballot in the 2021 Scottish Parliament election.

      The only way that will change is with the ouster of Sturgeon and her crypto-Unionist cabal.

      *(No, I wouldn’t trust the Greens constituency candidates as far as I could throw them.)

    41. kapelmeister says:

      Peter A Bell @12:43

      “Pretty soon, waiting becomes the only thing you’re capable of.”

      Exactly so Peter. And the nice salaries keep flowing into their bank accounts.

      Or, to put it another way. They also self-serve who stand and wait.

    42. Dan says:

      Marie Clark says: at 12:19 pm

      They also seem to have lost touch with the yes movement. We don’t need to be “Fired up”, we’ve never gone away…

      Exactly, since 2014 the Yes Movement has grown and developed in many ways.
      There’s been massive commitment (by unpaid volunteers) given to the real Indy Taskforce by the diverse grassroots activists that include a highly skilled range of folk.

      There are YES Groups up and running all over Scotland, and YES Hubs setup in many towns too.
      The Indy Bloggers, and the likes of Colin Dunn with his excellent campaign material continue to be produce the goods.
      The numerous AUOB marches managed to get turnouts that reached a significant tipping point in terms of proportion of societal engagement.

      The above effort by the grassroots in engaging and campaigning with the electorate since 2014 is probably a factor in why the SNP have become so electorally successful.
      Pretty much all the above are funded when required by donations from within the YES Movement. I wonder just how many well paid supposedly Pro-Indy politicians have donated to their local YES group to help them sustain their existence over the years of can kicking we’ve had to endure.

    43. Alison says:

      As a “secret plan” more carrot waving is distinctly underwhelming.

    44. G H Graham says:

      What is it going to take for the faithful to shake themselves out of their transcendental state?

      It is obviously beyond any doubt now that Sturgeon has absolutely no interest in independence. She may have had an ambition to forever alter Scotland’s constitutional status some years.

      But post Salmond, that wistful aspiration rapidly evaporated when she adopted & embraced the role of Chief Nanny Of State, mostly unimpeded by a woeful opposition of deadbeat, bench warmers led a by a revolving door of ineffective careerists.

      Quite unwilling & totally incapable of rebuilding a 21st century post industrial, diverse economic model, able to adopt/develop new value streams & technologies, she chose instead to focus on “soft” visions; identity politics, the “me too” movement, gender woo-woo policies, thought crimes, 2-for-1 pizzas, baby boxes, smacking, fags & re-branding benefit schemes to make poor people feel more positive about their poverty.

      A scan of those immediately around her reveals a team of people anointed with Mickey Mouse degrees, gender studies certificates & awards for not being nasty to other people; except towards Alex Salmond of course.

      And the results of their collective, socially re-engineered, nanny state is laid bare for all to see; schemes in her own constituency still blighted by chronic joblessness, poverty & crime & national transport infrastructure when compared to neighbouring countries like Norway, Iceland & even the Faroe Islands, decades behind.

      Rare attempts to dabble with industrial sectors are invariably tainted with whole scale failure: fabrication yards, ferries, trams, etc. The QFC bridge; a rare exception when it should be casually normal.

      The time has already passed when she should have either extracted Scotland from the UK or ceased & desist from blaming Westminster for holding our country back.

      She can’t have it both ways; she either puts up & shuts up or settles up & leaves.

      Personally, I’m sick of eating carrots.

    45. Livionian says:

      The depressing thing is that if she is forced to resign and I pray she will) I don’t see anyone else in the current Hollyrood group of SNPs who will be a much better replacement for us. Surrounded by yes men/women (and soon to be transwomen).

      Does anyone have an idea who would be best placed to fight for independence if she does get made to go by the end of this parliament? Obviously it unfortunately can’t be a Jo Cherry type

    46. Helen Yates says:

      And we ask ourselves how we could have been fooled by Labour for so long.
      it would appear we never learn.

    47. Flower of Scotland says:

      @AnneDon 12.28

      I agree totally with you. I changed after that speech. I knew for certain we were not getting a referendum now or anytime in the future. That was the time to do it and Sturgeon let us all down!

      My mind is clear now in that Sturgeon has to go, resign or be kicked out because of the shenanigans she presided over with the harassment of Alex Salmond.

      When Sturgeon goes the really good politicians in the SNP that weren’t involved, will take over and we can quickly get on with achieving Independence for Scotland.

    48. Astonished says:

      Keith Brown and the “New” NEC better come up with something much better than this nonsense.
      .
      .
      What about suspending peter murrell, letting us know where the ring-fenced money was spent, stopping yusuf’s stasi bill, expelling the woke who use the term TERF and making the election in may a plebiscite on independence ?

      If the above is done and seen to be done then you might just unite the party.

    49. Stuart MacKay says:

      What’s more fun, Christmas Eve or tidying up all the wrapping paper and washing all those dishes?

      A large part of the SNP and their support seem to want to live in Independence Eve on a permanent basis. You get points for virtue-signalling, points for getting all riled up at the injustice but that’s as far as your determination or intellect get taxed. No rolling up the sleeves and getting down to the business of creating and running a country which is way harder than spending the little budget currently granted by Westminster.

      They’re like little dogs that get all excited at whatever but after that it’s time for a nap.

    50. Christian Schmidt says:

      Discuss: Will Wales be independent before Scotland?

      (While support is just 25%, and the biggest party opposed, at least Plaid Llafur Cymru doesn’t seem to be a rabbit Unionist party, and in all probability will be again in coalition with the Welsh Nats in a few months.)

    51. Bob Mack says:

      “Heaven is the place where the donkey finally catches up with

      his carrot. Hell is the place where he tries to catch it”

      Russell.

      Do you want heaven or hell?

    52. FFS this campaign has been launched more often than the QE2.

    53. solarflare says:

      It’s an extremely accurate and concise summary of the current state of affairs.

      It has become doubly frustrating that the SNP position seems to be that we have to wait and see what happens with Brexit and Covid before doing anything about independence, whilst simultaneously highlighting why Brexit and Covid reinforce the case for independence. That being the case then, not trying to do more DURING Brexit and Covid just makes no sense. One suspect that after them both there will merely be another big thing that comes along that requires the focus “before independence”.

      Whilst the unionist vote in Scotland is relatively evenly split between the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems versus the Yes vote almost entirely swallowed up by the SNP, then there seems no real impetus for the SNP to do anything other than ride the election-winning bandwagon.

      The status quo Yessers say that the SNP need to have a majority to prove that Scotland wants independence. But we know that no Section 30 order is going to be forthcoming regardless, therefore it does not matter one jot whether there is an SNP majority or merely a pro-indy majority at Holyrood to therefore consider next steps.

      Indeed, I think it would greatly benefit the Yes cause if we could match up the unionists party for party – a third pro-Indy party winning a substantial number of list seats, for example, along with SNP and Greens, to show that actually SNP does not equal indy and vice-versa and that Scottish politics is not merely the unionists all lining up to take potshots at one pro-Indy party, but actually as a whole is split down the lines on this and the only way to resolve it is to put the specific question to the people.

    54. Flower of Scotland says:

      @G H Graham 12.56

      Good piece but the Queensferry Crossing was Alex Salmond,s wonderful baby, so you can’t even credit Sturgeon with that!

    55. Hatuey says:

      Doug Bryce: “The choice is simple. SNP or unionist party.“

      In other words, “who else yae gonnae vote fur? Mwahahaha…”

      People just won’t vote, which is a third choice. A lot of people do okay within the present system and as much as they want independence it isn’t the end of the world for them if it doesn’t happen. They’ll just stay at home; still wanting independence but with no realistic chance of getting it, they’ll reconcile themselves to waiting.

      And there’s a lot of people who don’t do okay within the present arrangement, the poor, unemployed, etc. Statistics show this demographic has less qualms than others when it comes to not voting. Confidence in politics and politicians in this category is rock bottom anyway.

      And who is going to go out and talk all these “non voting” types into voting? I couldn’t guess at the percentages, but it looks like a high number of activists – those who usually knock on doors etc. – have lost confidence in the leadership.

      Of course, all of this assumes things will stay as they are now, polls, leadership, covid-19, etc. None of these things are very predictable at the best of times.

    56. Xaracen says:

      “The worst outcome for Scotland would be rushing IndyRef2 then losing narrowly again.”

      “Rushing”? Really?
      Should have read the article.

    57. Robert Louis says:

      Excellent article, which sums up how I felt on reading the headline today.

      What really puzzles me, however, is that for folk who supposedly want Scottish independence, the SNP seem ever so reluctant to actually make even the slightest effort to achieve it. And I just don’t understand that. 18 polls in a freaking row showing a majority for independence, all those SNP MPs, MSP’s and councillors, yet still Sturgeon cannot seem to bite the bullet.

      To any sane observer, she looks like an utter coward. Feart to do anything, without first asking London’s ‘permission’.

      Even without independence, the Scotgov should be fighting fire with fire. The 100 million GBP which westminster has stolen from Scotland, as part of its ‘unity’ fund, for example. If England’s First Minister, Boris Johnson, allocates money to a specific region or council, then the Scotgov should immediately act to remove an equivalent of Scottish government funding from that council or region. That way, it is clear, it is the democratically elected government of Scotland which will allocate funding, not the colonial imposters in London. But, alas, the SNP leadership will do no such thing. She will whine about how unfair it is, but DO NOTHING.

      I am sick and tired of waiting for the scotgov to start asserting its OWN powers, regardless of what London says or wants. If the SNP do not make the election in May a vote to immediately end the union, and commence negotiations for EU re-entry and an independent nation, then they simply will not get my 1st vote. My second vote is already going to ISP.

      Many think the same way. It is utterly pointless electing the SNP again, without hard guarantees, since we know from experience they will NOT hold a referendum, despite promising one. We might as well boot them out of power, in the hope they finally get a grip on just WHY we kept electing them. Mibbes then they might freaking well listen to indy supporters.

      As for this new announcement – grade A recycled p*sh.

    58. Bob Mack says:

      @Solarflare,

      I agree. A broader party front for Independence is absolutely essential for many reasons.

    59. John Jones says:

      Carrots are supposed to be good for you, even improve your eyesight.
      Doesn’t seem to be working for the Nicolites, they can’t see the rubbish being served daily,
      Indyref2? Ask them to hold their breath until it is passed that’ll sort out all the sycophants.

    60. Big Jock says:

      It’s really important to understand that independence can’t happen with Nicola in charge.

      Her approval ratings could be 90%. But she doesn’t want independence anymore. She just goes through the motions every 12 months. We need shot her as soon as possible.

      Hopefully she will have to resign. I will not vote for another 5 years of her administration. The SNP are stale. We might have to wait till 2022 with a new leader. But at least we will know they actually want independence.

    61. Jimmy Mac says:

      It’s starting to look as if Sturgeon is deliberately trying to throw the May election. It will allow her to resign with ‘honour’ because she’s done what she can but the people let her down. Then she’s on to pastures new at the UN or whatever.

    62. Garrion says:

      “The party wasn’t formed as a vehicle for Nicola Sturgeon to swan around doing selfies while tinkering ineffectually with a few administrative chores handed down to it from Westminster”.

      If we could just have this on a billboard across from Bute House.

    63. Robert Louis says:

      Christian Wright at 1253pm,

      Exactly. In many ways the SNP are pro union, because they simply will not push for independence. Thay talk about it, but do nothing.

    64. frogesque says:

      I smell an election in the offing.

    65. John Digsby says:

      @Doug Bruce

      I’d say the Northern Ireland precedent is that a harder border will be needed in indy Scotland, especially if we rejoin the EU. The whole point is that a new border with paperwork and checks has been introduced between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same between the rest of the UK and the EU. Some of this is teething troubles, but the paperwork and checks are real. So indy will mean a border with checks- I think we have to live with that.

      @Lorna Campbell
      The error in what you’ve written is that while the Treaty is real (and indeed declares itself to be ‘forever’!) the parties to the Treaty no longer exist – there is no English Parliament, which was replaced by the Union Parliament, and Holyrood is a creation of the Union Parliament, and is not the same as the one that signed itself into extinction.
      This is one of many reasons why legal scholars don’t think of the Treaty of Union as being a treaty in the modern legal sense.

    66. kapelmeister says:

      Wishart’s now saying on twitter that we’ve been telling people to wheesht for division. How clever, eh folks?

      The only Yes keyboard player is Rick Wakeman.

    67. Confused says:

      the SNP’s enthusiasm for independence matches that of Elton John on his wedding night

      – to the German woman.

      i.e. a vagina-owner, if “woman” is too ambiguous these days

      will scottish nationalists also be abandoned evening after evening, with a pot noodle and a vibrator?

      “birth of a nation”? – not if you prefer the ‘rong-un

      the SNP leadership is a repository for the sterile, the pointless, the masturbatory

    68. Captain Yossarian says:

      The UN do employ some spoofs. To employ someone who has single-handedly wrecked the world-wide reputation of a Nation’s legal profession and judiciary….well, that would surprise even me.

    69. susanXX says:

      Independence Taskforce my arse, just another excuse to fanny around the issue and put wokeist placepeople (joke) in place. SNP must do better.

    70. Cath says:

      All the energy in the independence movement. And yet everything to move us towards it hinges on a tiny power cabal who’s main aim has been stitching up Salmond, trying to get rid of Cherry, silencing Wings (which produced the only decent piece of campaign literature in 2014, one which actually shifted opinions), bashing groups like Commonweal and creating really nasty division by having a misogynistic squad of gender zealots abusing SNP members and voters alike. It’s not even energy squandered; it’s actually SNP cliques working to destroy it. But yeah I’m sure their “Taskforce” and “Tsar” will change all that.

    71. James Che. says:

      Simple question, to snp. have you used up the last mandate we gave you, if not use it, then your numbers will go up in next election. If not…..

    72. Bob Mack says:

      @Kapelmeister,

      Don’t let Wisharts bravado confuse you. He shows every indication of being concerned that the Indy movement or at least large sections of it are moving ahead outwith SNP control.

    73. solarflare says:

      The other thing is – and I’m borrowing this line from another article I read recently (can’t remember exactly who but may have been Grousebeater?), so kudos to whomever it was for putting it so succinctly – is this:

      You cannot ask for a mandate for a secret plan.

      So essentially unless the SNP manifesto is crystal clear about whatever Plan B is (and I’m not expecting it to be), then we can safely assume there is no real plan B other than at the very best (!) pushing it to the next election.

    74. Derek says:

      “The only Yes keyboard player is Rick Wakeman.”

      Trevor Horn latterly, too…

    75. birnie says:

      Money talks. If SNP branch treasurers were to withdraw to their branch accounts the considerable amounts of subscription funds held by HQ “on their behalf” this would deprive party HQ of the liquid means to waste resources centrally while keeping monies for local expenditure within the wider party and at the same time hopefully encourage a mending of ways.

    76. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Don’t let Wisharts bravado confuse you. He shows every indication of being concerned that the Indy movement or at least large sections of it are moving ahead outwith SNP control.”

      He’s absolutely shiteing himself at the moment. His entire Twitter feed is just a neverending onslaught of abuse against me, Martin Keatings or anyone actually doing anything.

    77. Ottomanboi says:

      I believe the colloquial English for this kind of behaviour is
      Pricktease
      A person who likes to lead others on with hints that they could possibly have sex, even though there is no intention of ever engaging in such.
      Honestly FM, pull the other one!

    78. TruthForDummies says:

      From Chris NcEleny on Twitter.

      The plan is to transfer staff to a task force so their pay comes out if the ‘ring fenced funds’. Clearly The finds don’t exist but In an accountant trick existing staff pay will be put against the fund.
      The NEC must have decided this yesterday
      Looks like the new NEC is as bad as the old NEC

      https://twitter.com/chrismceleny/status/1350777150073409536?s=21

    79. holymacmoses says:

      It will be interesting to see the Indyref2 ring-fenced finances come back into the public domain with this announcement:-)
      From ‘National’ on 28th October 2020 Andrew Learmonth writes
      However, the SNP treasurer, insists that there is £593,501 in the “Referendum Appeal Fund” which is ready to be deployed “instantaneously”.

      A quotation well kent by Mr Wings and the readers of the
      ‘only truly true newsheet in the West’

    80. NellG says:

      Love the bloated swine riding the donkey. First Class!

    81. holymacmoses says:

      Although, do hope that Sturgeon find a better communications expert to lead the ‘Independence’ campaign than the people (or person) who ‘coached’ the witness in the Holyrood Inquiry. The Yoons aren’t nearly as generous as the board have been on getting people to ‘correct’ the things they’ve got wrong.

    82. Lorna Campbell says:

      John Digsby: they do exist; they simply do not exist as independence nation states. How could they? How could any two independent nation states going into a Union remain the same? Legally, they still exist and they still exist as they were prior to the Treaty. A Treaty is an international contract between states. In law, if one party abuses the contractual obligations in any shape or form, the other party has the right to withdraw.

      Human rights would never permit a ‘former’ condition within an Article to take precedence over modern-day legal principles. You cannot bind a country like that forever. These are facile lies that we are told all the time. They are LIES. The Treaty is still extant and it is still challengeable. What is wrong with the Scots? If the wee lairdies – most of the lawyers – in the HoL want to renegotiate the Treaty as an Act (an Act comes within domestic law, not international law, as a Treaty does, and the Acts of Union in no way affect the Treaty of Union unless we were to renegotiate as an Act – biiiiiiigggggg mistake), why do you think they might want to do that? Shall I tell you? Because they want to shaft us all over again. Baaaaaahhhh.

      No one has ever commissioned legal scholars to challenge the Treaty. The Treaty has never been ‘sound’ in law. Cameron had two eminent Professors, Crawford and Boyle, report on the Treaty in 2013. Putting aside the fact that we lost in 2014, the report, despite saying that Scotland no longer exists, but England does (completely and wholly untenable to even the most dim English Nationalist mind) was quietly shelved because, I have no doubt, it threw up distinct possibilities that England might not be the natural successor of rUK, that Scotland might challenge and win back all her Treaty assets prior to 1707.

      It is acquiescence, and nothing more, that has been the position adopted by successive Scottish administrations, including the SNPG. Mind-numbingly chilling acquiescent acquiescence to everything that Westminster spits in our direction. I suggest you read the late Professor of Public Law, David Walker, one of our finest constitutional minds, and not a nationalist or SNP supporter, to my knowledge) on the continuing relevance of the Treaty, and his warning to beware any renegotiations. His findings and conclusions were backed by Professor Ian Campbell, latterly of Liverpool, another constitutional lawyer, international lawyer, and judge. We might have to crowdfund a challenge to the Treaty if the SNPG refuses to do so. Meantime, a plebiscitary election is well within their powers to enact NOW.

    83. Tom says:

      spouse at 12.43pm: “AUOB should officially invite, in an open letter, all SNP MSPs to march along and also to have NS give a speech”.

      Possibly a good idea, but only if they’re all at the back of the march and none of them (including the FM) are invited to speak. Instead, they should be ‘invited’ to listen to others who (unlike the SNP) are still actively driving the case for indy.

      Otherwise, any march would be turned into a ‘we love Nicola rally’, like that one in George Square not organised by AUOB, but by her more-reliable friends at The National.

      Incidentally, did The National cover the recent Robin McAlpine Source/Wings article? I hear that it didn’t, but as I stopped subscribing to both print and digital editions some time ago, I can’t be sure.

      But it’s interesting that Bella didn’t, nor Scot Goes Pop. In some quarters there seems to be a conspiracy of silence over the corruption being exposed at the top of the SNP and Scottish government. Which is to to be expected from the MSM, but from indy-supporting blogs and (possibly) The National too?

      Do we want to be part of an independent nation run by corrupt politicians supported by an uncritical and often fawning press? Isn’t that why we want away from Westminster politics and media?

      Not sure I do. Maybe I’ll just vote Tory in May and help bring this whole grizzly business to an end. Only kidding. I think.

    84. Bob Mack says:

      Courtesy of Roger Daltrey “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss”.

    85. Derick fae Yell says:

      solarflare says:
      17 January, 2021 at 1:46 pm:

      “You cannot ask for a mandate for a secret plan.”

      The quote is from Barrhead Boy on twitter.

      Little known fact: it is possible to overdose on carrots

      hypercarotinemia – you heard it here first

      “Carrot man: a case of excessive beta-carotene ingestion

      Randy A Sansone 1 , Lori A Sansone

      Abstract

      In this case report, the authors describe a 48-year-old male who complained to his primary care physician of abdominal discomfort and yellow/orange skin discoloration. Physical examination was normal except for some mild mid-abdominal discomfort (no observed skin color changes). An abdominal CT scan indicated a colon that was full of stool. Laboratory studies indicated elevated liver enzymes. Upon further questioning, the patient reported ingesting 6-7 pounds of carrots per week to facilitate his dieting effort. The patient was diagnosed with constipation, hypercarotinemia, and possible vitamin A toxicity. Following the cessation of excessive carrot ingestion, his liver enzymes normalized within 1 month.

    86. Beaker says:

      I noticed on Twitter that the spirit of Quasimodo is alive and well, albeit from a Scottish perspective.

      Any criticism of Sturgeon is met with the cries of “The Polls! The Polls!”

    87. SilverDarling says:

      Has Pete Wishart done anything in the years he has been at Westminster?

      As mentioned he is now telling everyone to be quiet as we are nearly there, wherever that is. This pish about division is getting really tiresome. You have to have division to get anything done otherwise we are stuck in the status quo forever.

      He also bemoans people funding campaigns to to get stuff done because if it doesn’t work those poor people have wasted their money! The whole point of the s30 court action is to determine stuff that our elected representatives should have clarified years ago. If they did their job instead of leaving it to ‘unqualified people’ maybe we would be negotiating our Independence now.

      His attitude is to leave everything in grey, and have nothing legalised or formalised because that opens up discussions he would rather not have – if we do need a s30 how do we ever get one if the UK government continue to make it within their gift exclusively? If we don’t need one, what next?

      Everyone of the SNP who sits on their arse waiting for the soft nos to make the decision for them is a disgrace. Meanwhile we are being destroyed economically, culturally and socially as a nation.

      It would make you weep.

    88. solarflare says:

      Derick fae Yell says:
      17 January, 2021 at 2:06 pm
      solarflare says:
      17 January, 2021 at 1:46 pm:

      “You cannot ask for a mandate for a secret plan.”

      The quote is from Barrhead Boy on twitter.

      ——-

      Thanks – and my apologies to Barrhead Boy – couldn’t remember where I read it so incorrectly attributed it, d’oh.

    89. carjamtic says:

      It could have been such a pretty house,with such a pretty garden, but the current occupants have managed to get stuck in a toxic terra infirma, of entirely their own making and yet again they ask for my assistance to get back to the terra firmer.

      Yes, it still could be a Pretty House
      and
      Yes, it still could be a Pretty Garden

      Hmmmn, I need to think this one over, meantime, they should desist from aimlessly thrashing around any more, it’s not helping, trying to blame others and offering carrots (and not even purple ones).

      (The UK gov. is in a similar situation but for them the answer is easy, fuck off, the Zombies and Orcs have already arrived and they are unsavable, they are on their own.)

      As you are refusing to take responsibly for any of this, it could take awhile, will let you know in 2/3 weeks if you are worth saving, but although as I clearly stated out to you quite some time ago, don’t ever call me ever again, I do recognise the movement North, of the walking dead and that is the dilemma you have put me in.

      #thanksalotyouabsolutekinmorons

    90. stonefree says:

      @ Lorna Campbell at 12:22 pm

      I agree

      @ John Digsby at 1:24 pm

      @ Doug Bruce
      Re the treaty
      The treaty is forever as you say,
      I would say it is merely a contract.
      Consider that the 1999 version is the Mk 2 version( I was never sure of the rhetoric of the “adjourned parliament” I think of it as an “administration”
      If one thinks of it as a contract, then England has broken the contract many times,
      The mere dissolving of the Scottish and English Parliaments in 1707(yes I know) was the first then the forming of the Great Britain Parliament and the later United Kingdom of Great Britain Parliament
      Would be two to start with,the English part is still preserved within Westminster.
      Why not take it back to the simplest form?

    91. George Rutherford says:

      They’ll be holding an all night party over at the Wee Gingerbread Man’s website after they see these headlines.

      I am waiting on just one of them coming over here and telling us she really really means it this time.

      She’s promising indyRef2, we’ll be lucky if we see an election in May.

    92. Colin Alexander says:

      If possible, never judge a politician or political party by what they promise to do.
      “Jam the morra” is for mugs and clairvoyants.

      Judge them by what they have done:

      The Holyrood major manifesto commitments were broken. Under Sturgeon the SNP broke the promises on indyref2 and stopping Scotland being dragged out of the EU. They broke the promise that the SNP would begin a major campaign on independence beginning in the summer of 2016.

      Arguably, the SNP have instead undermined the restoration of Scotland’s national sovereignty:

      1. Nicola Sturgeon abandoned the red line that the people of Scotland voted Remain and so Scotland’s democratic will must be respected in a Union of equals.

      2. Continually promoting the idea that Scotland needs permission from Westminster for self-determination with the mantra of a s30 order or it won’t be legal.

      3. The SNP Scot Govt have been actively attempting to defeat the Forward As One legal case. The Scot Govt / Lord Advocate is / was a Defender of the case on the same side as the UK Govt, opposing the attempt to legally establish that the Scottish Parliament has the power to hold an advisory indyref without a s30.

      4. The prosecution / persecution of pro-independence supporters such as: Alex Salmond, Mark Hirst, Craig Murray, Manny Singh etc.

    93. Strathy says:

      They needed a pre-election campaign vote winner/distraction from the inquiries combo for a big news splash.

      This was the SNP’s big thinkers’ best idea.

    94. Saffron Robe says:

      It was the “Game On” headline that sickened me the most. Although The National used to have some really good writers and contributors, and may still do, the editorial line is tightly controlled by the SNP hierarchy. To that extent it is Scotland’s “Pravda”. (Interestingly, of course, ‘pravda’ means ‘truth’!)

      An independence task force? Would that be a task force set up to locate the missing ring-fenced money? More like a farce force in the SNP’s case! To paraphrase Stoker’s suggestion – the Scottish Neverland Party indeed!

      And I would agree with Confused. The SNP are to independence what masturbation is to procreation!

      John Digsby says:

      “…there is no English Parliament, which was replaced by the Union Parliament.”

      I would respectfully disagree John. Your sentence should read:

      “…the English Parliament became the Union Parliament and exists (as the English Parliament under the guise of the Union Parliament) up until this day.”

    95. ahundredthidiot says:

      I have heard the politically correct woke faction of the SNP is asking for the reference to ‘slaves’ to be removed from Rule Brittania.

      Not without solution, they themselves have offered;

      Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the Sea,
      Scots, never, never, never, shall be Free.

    96. Sweep says:

      You missed out the picture of the Bridge.

      You know? The one I’m offering cheap to the Sturgeonistas?

    97. holymacmoses says:

      Lorna Campbell

      If the wee lairdies – most of the lawyers – in the HoL want to renegotiate the Treaty as an Act (an Act comes within domestic law, not international law, as a Treaty does, and the Acts of Union in no way affect the Treaty of Union unless we were to renegotiate as an Act – biiiiiiigggggg mistake), why do you think they might want to do that? Shall I tell you? Because they want to shaft us all over again. Baaaaaahhhh.

      The Scottish legal system has been lying to the Scottish people and to some extent the Unionists since the 45.
      R L Stevenson wrote to Henry James complaining bitterly that ‘people don’t read’ and that was in late 1880’s

      Stevenson averred that he wrote truth as fiction – he was narrating ‘real histories’.

      People should read and understand ‘The Master of Ballantrae’

      Stevenson and Baxter (his best pal in Edinburgh) were both lawyers.
      Stevenson calls the book a ‘mystery’ but years of academic reading in Universities have maintained that the book is a simple explanation of the ‘split’ in the Scottish consciousness.
      Whereas the book is, in fact, a masterclass on ‘tone’ and how it fools people into ‘not listening or reading carefully’ . BUT within the narrative is the true history of how Scotland was lied to and by whom.
      The heirs of Scotland end up in the back kitchen of an old house with no family or friends to speak of.
      The question to ask is ‘where does the narrator (McKellar) end up and how has he reached that place..
      Stevenson drops many clues along the way with ‘mistakes’ in dates as early as the flyleaf , names dropped incorrectly as early as the first 20 pages. The book tells the reader exactly how Scotland got to be ‘the puir relations’ in the union.
      Knowing exactly where one is, on an historical chart/map, enables us to mark the accurate position and from there be able to chart an objective course instead of the continual misdirection of WM and Holyrood

      Scottish literary history is full of gems – but people don’t read it. Some people study it – and that simply extends the myths and obfuscates the truth. Novels are for reading and understanding not studying as if they were a textbook

    98. Morgatron says:

      Groundhog day.

    99. Willie says:

      The sooner Sturgeon, Murrell and some of the others go to jail for criminal conspiracy the better.

      This headline in the National is just pap.

      There can be no move forward with people like Sturgeon and her ilk in place. They are poison and a poison that must be removed. All SNP candidates take note. Sitting quietly is not an op5ion.

    100. Liz says:

      @stoker could you send us a link to that tweet

    101. stonefree says:

      Re The Ringfenced Money,
      Yes Scot from stuff on this site was and is a dormant company folk paid into that company, yet there are NO account save the DCA ones, the money should have a paper trail to that company, if only to say money came in .
      If it was paid into the the SNP account .
      That to me says money laundering and fraud.
      If the money was paid in by people in the belief it was for a specific purpose , again that to me stinks, and seems to be mis-represantion
      The company has existed since 2012 the Directors are Scott Martin and Blair Jenkins, Martin is the COE
      What the hell does anyone need a CEO in a dormant company?

      I wonder if some of the money was used to pay for “services” (steady at the back)….clerical assistants and the like , canvassers? the odd latte? a weekend away ?

    102. Mist001 says:

      This has nothing to do with actual independence but everything to do with getting gullible independence supporters onside so they vote the SNP back into power in the Holyrood elections in May.

    103. kapelmeister says:

      Stonefree

      “I wonder if some of the money was used……..the odd latte? a weekend away?”

      LOL.

      Or perhaps Max Bialystock’s excuse for unaccounted for money.
      “I don’t know. I took a Turkish bath.”

    104. James Che. says:

      I think sadly that is the way we are going to have to do it, we move on from waiting for the snp.
      When it comes to debating the ending of the treaty of the union, I see nor read any thing in that treaty that includes rules or process of ending the treaty,
      Here is a list of some of the treaties that have related to Scotland in the past, that are no longer active.
      Treaty of York, 1237.
      The treaty of Perth, 1266.
      The treaty of Corneille, 1326.
      The treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton, 1328.
      The treaty of Vincennes-Edinburgh, 1371.
      The treaty of Westminster-ardtornish, 1462.
      The treaty of fotheringhay, 1474.
      The treaty of Ayton, 1497.
      The treaty of perpetual peace, 1502.
      The treaty of Rouen, 1517.
      The treaty of Berwick, 1526. ( second).
      The treaty of Greenwich, 1543.
      The treaty of Edinburgh 1560. (Not ratified)
      The treaty of Suza, 1629.
      The treaty of Ripon, 1640.
      The treaty of London, 1641.
      The treaty of Breda, 1650, ( solemn league and covenant)
      The treaty of the union, 1707,

      Treaties are only valid or legal if no changes, or alterations have taken place to that particular treaty, the treaty of the union 1707 would no longer be valid due to the alterations between Scotland and England over the centuries. Including the latest internal market bill.
      The treaty of the union does not specify/ give specific instructions by way of agreement on the side of England or Scotland on the ending of the treaty,
      I was looking for clauses that would help and hold true as a guidance if the treaty of the union were still intact and currently valid,
      However this treaty does not seem to have these in the same way that the EU and Brexit treaties have, there is no article 50, etc, etc,

    105. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Think I’ll just wait half an hour and pop off over to the little red animal to watch them all jostling for position at the forefront of the taskforce attack..!

      S30 is old hat now … it’s SUPER S30 with the turbo beg..

      Boris won’t be able to say NO anymore – by Easter we’ll be free.

      Halleee fucken loolya 🙂

    106. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Tony Kaye was also a Yes keyboard player, before and after Wakeman.

      In February 2018, Yes headlined Cruise to the Edge involving original keyboardist Tony Kaye as a special guest, marking his first performances with the band since 1994.”
      (Wikipedia)

    107. James Che. says:

      Auto correct is determined to change correct spelling to incorrect, by assumption. My apologies.

    108. Craig Murray says:

      Stu,

      I haven’t been able to phone you for over 24 hours – straight to out of service message. Last time we spoke we joked about speaking again unless the police came and confiscated your phone. Now I am concerned.

    109. Frazerio says:

      1) I read that headline and thought ‘The SNP DONT have an indy taskforce????? This article rams home that point and then some. We are being trolled.

      2) I read the ‘a wee lassie says’ post on Scotgoespop & genuinely thought it must be some sort of wind-up. Basically says we need the soft No’s to win and soft No’s will only vote Yes if Sturgeon is leader. As an exercise, insert any name you like into that blogpost in place of Sturgeon and the utter absurdity of the logic should become plainly apparent (eg Tony Blair, Donald Trump, Kevin Keegan etc). Mr Kelly would see this as me comparing Sturgeonn to Trump. No, I’m comparing blind loyalty to blind loyalty. We are being trolled.

      3) I looked at Mr Kavanagh’s latest post (Yes times eighteen). For years I thought he was the greatest ‘opinionator’ on the Indy side. It is galling to read his more recent output. He basically says if you disagree with me or want to be negative, then go away, which is an incredible position. His website, his rules I suppose. He then goes on to argue that the “thrice woe faction” (which seems to mean people with critical faculties) “will just keep asking what use is it voting SNP if Johnson keeps saying no”. He then says this is “the wrong question to ask”. He goes on to argue that if the SNP dont do so well in May “All we will hear from the media and the anti-independence parties will be that the voters of Scotland dont really want independence and that is the narrative that will become entrenched”.

      I have had to recalibrate my incredulity scale. What exactly has the narrative been then Paul? Where and when exactly has that not been their entrenched position?? What on earth has happened to your once peerless point of view?

      We’re very well aware how ill-served we are on the Yes side by the MSM. But when stalwarts of online Yes media are slipping so badly, the importance of this sight has probably never been more acute.

      Thank you Mr Campbell, keep on keepin on.

    110. Mia says:

      Doug Bryce says:
      17 January, 2021 at 12:17 pm
      “The choice is simple. SNP or unionist party”

      This is an incorrect assertion and misleading. In fact it brings a deja vu of when labourites would tell us until we were blue in the face that either Scotland voted for labour or we would be responsible for a UK tory government. Same sht, different toilet.

      Today, the SNP under Sturgeon has all the hallmarks of being nothing more than another unionist party doing the dirty work for the British state. Evidence for this? Plenty. Here are some examples:

      1. Their attempt to permanently remove Salmond from Scotland’s politics and with him that “annoying” RT programme and the possibility of this man leading us again to independence.
      2. how the british establishment appears to be “oblivious” at the potential crimes committed in that quest to get Mr Salmond and how they are looking the other way while Sturgeon’s gov desperately stops the evidence for the conspiracy reaching the public eye. If they really wanted rid of Sturgeon, they would have done so already. They have had plenty of opportunities.
      3. the easiness with which this FM handed over to Westminster Scotland’s rights, powers and assets
      4. the easiness with which this FM has adopted English convention and just watched while our popular sovereignty got shafted. I don’t remember Sturgeon’s government even commemorating the anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath
      5. The bogus S30 and the way her government has attempted to kibosh Martin Keating’s case
      6. Her having absolutely no intention to fulfil a single democratic mandate, only to let them expire so she has an excuse to ask for another one and continue kicking the can down the road
      7. the easiness with which this FM is coming up with excuses and delays to stop us exercising our right to self determination
      8. At all times she has always have far more consideration for the views of the no voters than those of the yes voters who put her party where it is today
      9. The way she has been leading us on for over 5 years.
      10. The way she has turned around and attacked yes supporters when they did not tow her line
      11 Her Covid “strategy” consisted just in adding a few cosmetic differences to Westminster’s one. There was never any meaningful departure from Westminster’s line.
      12. Every time she is in hot water and subjected to enormous scrutiny by the yes supporters themselves, along comes a unionist party to give her a lifeline of credibility. Here is an example for you:

      The national published 9 hours ago the news of the new “taskforce” putrid carrot to create the pretence they are doing something. If you look at the comments, you will see that these news isn’t generating the kind of response they would have hoped from yes supporters.

      Well, about an hour ago, right on cue, along come the unionist parties to Sturgeon’s battered credibility rescue. We now have another article in the same newspaper under the title: “Unionists fume at SNP for setting up new independence taskforce”

      Is this second article a reflection that the unionists are taking this taskforce seriously at all and actually give a sht about it?
      Of course not. It is just to add to its credibility. Classical example of propaganda strategy. They know the “taskforce” is just window dressing, like most people reading this blog know. What they are attempting is to give to it credibility by pretending they are worried about it. This stinks at coordination and this strategy has been deployed far too many times recently for not noticing, particularly every time the white elephant of an indyref “soon” hits the front pages.

      I wonder what the “sudden” and rather convenient exit of Leonard was trying to distract from. I am sure it was nothing to do with labour itself.

      Why will Labour never support independence?

      Because the day they do, the credibility of Sturgeon’s SNP as “the” pro indy party will disappear and the UK will become ungovernable. How can labour possibly reconcile support for independence in Scotland with England’s need to keep control of Scotland’s resources to survive economically?

      The way to destroy the smoke and mirrors that passes for politics in Scotland is by releasing 2 new pro indy parties, one in the list and another in the constituency aiming to a plebiscite for independence election. In other words, giving the electorate a real choice. We already got one, the ISP. We just need another one running in the constituency seats. That will show Sturgeon’s SNP for what it is: another unionist party that only looks vaguely pro indy when it is compared to labour, libdems and tories.

    111. Saffron Robe says:

      The SNP are to independence what masturbation is to procreation!

      Or in other words, a bunch of wankers!!!

    112. kapelmeister says:

      Saffron Robe @3:51

      More onanist than unionist then?

    113. Iain More says:

      Saffron Robe says:
      17 January, 2021 at 3:51 pm

      “The SNP are to independence what masturbation is to procreation!

      Or in other words, a bunch of wankers!!!”

      That’s no fair to wankers as they are actually getting a stiff one, the SNP arent even doing that, well the Wokists would be offended and you would end up in court charged with Rape.

    114. Dan says:

      @ Saffron Robe

      Well I guess someone has to rub some life into that poor limp carrot…

    115. Iain More says:

      To quote last paragraph.

      “Should she somehow survive the two inquiries into the Scottish Government’s conduct over the Alex Salmond affair – which this site still considers an implausible outcome – and lead the SNP into another victorious election and yet another indyref refusal by Westminster, it’ll be fascinating to see if the carrots still retain their allure.”
      ———————————————————

      Where is the peg on the donkeys nose? The carrot lost its allure for me years ago. It is now just rotten and stinking.

    116. Liz says:

      Craig Murray any response?

    117. cirsium says:

      @G H Graham, 12.56 and @Stuart Mackay, 1.02

      Good descriptions of the epic failure of the SNP governments under Ms Sturgeon’s leadership to prepare Scotland for independence.

    118. Saffron Robe says:

      I think you are right Iain. It’s being a bit unfair on honest wankers!

    119. Ellie says:

      If the taskforce is interested, I have a good recipe for Carrot (&Ginger) soup. I’m willing to share.

    120. Andy Ellis says:

      This is the independence equivalent of tantric sex.

      It’s increasingly obvious that absent some political earthquake which results in the overthrow of the gradualist prospectus before #HR2021 elections, we are stymied until the 2026 elections at the earliest. If, as Angus B MacNeil observed the fall back plan is going to have to be making #HR2026 elections plebiscitary, doesn’t it behove us to put the following question to all prospective pro-indy MSPs:

      “In the event Westminster refuses to grant a Section 30 Order for #indyref2 in the duration of this Holyrood parliament, do you guarantee to campaign to make the next election for Holyrood a plebiscitary election, whereby a majority of votes for pro-independence parties is regarded as de facto independence.”

      Finding out which ones say they won’t do this, or those that refuse to answer, will be a good indication of who not to vote for.

      https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1350607097537449984

    121. Saffron Robe says:

      What did one SNP snowperson say to the other?

      Can you smell carrot?!

    122. paul says:

      @kapelmeister
      The only Yes keyboard player is Rick Wakeman.

      Rick nand oliver Wakeman
      Tony Kaye
      Geoff Downes
      Eddie Jobson

      So the band has four more yes keyboard players than the SNP.

    123. paul says:

      Should be Rick and Oliver Wakeman

      So thats 5 nil to the rock artistes.

    124. Republicofscotland says:

      I think we in here know fine well that they’ll not be an indyref whilst the lying fish Sturgeon is in charge of the SNP, but there are still plenty of gullible mugs out there, WGD for example, who actually believe that Sturgeon and Murrell will lead us to independence very soon, they won’t.

      The indy carrot as you say is wheeled out like clockwork any time there’s an election on the horizon, however each time they lie their f*cking arses off, more and more folk begin to realise that Sturgeon is a fraud, but we’ve still got quite a few Sturgeonistas to convert to the truth, that the Sturgeon is a charlatan, a fraud, an egotistical monster who has duped Scots time and time again, but hopefully not for much longer.

      Her name will go down in Scottish history, as the woman who sold Scotland out.

    125. paul says:

      @Mia

      11 Her Covid “strategy” consisted just in adding a few cosmetic differences to Westminster’s one. There was never any meaningful departure from Westminster’s line.

      It looks awfully like front running for westminster. The PM says ‘ladies first’ to the junior member of Cobra, using her to see how the kite will fly.

      Which is why we,despite lower per capita numbers, we now have the most restrictions.

      The ones implemented this weekend strike me as very low margin in terms of health outcomes.

    126. Craig Murray says:

      OK Stu cancel that worry – just seen evidence of you posting elsewhere so you’re not down the pokie

    127. Chris Downie says:

      I can just picture them setting up a stall at Glasgow Barras some time in the near future… “Roll up, roll up, get yer Krankie’s Karrots here, fer wan mair mandate! Quality, man.”

    128. Dan says:

      Andy Ellis says: at 4:27 pm

      This is the independence equivalent of tantric sex.

      Ach, well there’s nowt worse than premature ejockulation…

      @ ROS

      Aye, brings a whole new meaning to Clockwork Orange.

      The field behind ma hoose still has aboot 20 acres o’ the orange fookers in it. I’m sick o’ eatin’ them, but I guess some will still have true faith in the new orange order.

    129. X_Sticks says:

      For those interested here’s Ian Blackford bigging up Dani Garvelli. You couldn’t make it up. I despair.
      https://twitter.com/Ianblackford_MP/status/1350845755595100162?s=20

    130. Bob Mack says:

      @Frazerio,

      Im trying not to be unkind ,but there are major differences between here and Paul Kavanagh blog. Even though you contribute on here,Stu is just as likely to still tell you to eff off if you really overstep the line.

      Paul made the mistake of becoming hostage to his paying readers out of necessity for himself. He now finds it almost impossible to criticise their world view.

      He is effectively trapped as long as they financially support him. I know I did when he asked. Such a shame.

    131. Dan says:

      The second of a pair of articles setting out potential policies and positions in an Independent Scotland.

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/01/17/section-two/

    132. Ron Maclean says:

      @ Colin Alexander 2:42pm
      ‘Judge them by what they have done:’

      Or the company they keep – Westminster, Sturgeon, Murrell, Swinney, Wolffe, Evans, Jack.

    133. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I suspect because the common enemy of both Blackford (personal animosity at being suspended by AS in 2000) and Garvelli is A Salmond (and Independence) @ X_Sticks says at 5:02 pm

    134. Effijy says:

      Tory Douglas Carswell, who firmed vote leave and joined UKIP,
      Has immigrated to the Deep South of America, home of racial abuse
      and inequality.

      He has joined a right wing Mississippi think tank.
      Some of the organisation’s views would make Brexiteers blush: last spring it sued the city’s mayor for banning the public carrying of firearms.

      What a lovely fascist loss to those in London ruling over Scotland.
      Scotland – The UK’s Black man!

    135. Inverclyder says:

      Maybe we’ve already had Indyref2 and the high heid yins in the SNP kept it a secret!

    136. Effijy says:

      Bojo’s Britain just short of 90,000 Covid Registered deaths
      with another 20,000 excess deaths to his tally.

      Although claiming the daily Covid deaths today have almost halved from Friday’s 1,200 plus
      they seem to hide the true numbers on Sunday and Mondays.

      To put to the test I predict over 1,000 new deaths on Tuesday.

      Still showing those Europeans how to kill off people with the highest daily and
      historical death totals.

      Another 10,000 dead for Valentine’s Day looks likely.

    137. Republicofscotland says:

      In my opinion co-opted union loving Scots run through every layer and strata of Civil Scotland today, each one is effectively a BritNat/unionist gatekeeper. Their house and jobs and very lifestyles depend on the status quo remaining in place in Scotland.

      I recall years ago visiting the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum in Glasgow and walking through the section displaying armour from all periods including Jacobite swords. Years later I found out that the Jacobite swords were removed from display because they had writing on them which referred to a free and independent Scotland.

      With the likes of Bridget McConnell (wife of ex-FM and die hard BritNat Jack McConnell) heading up Glasgow Life, and her being a Scottish cultural administrator, expect Scottish culture that shows any form of independence for Scotland to be continually suppressed.

    138. paul says:

      Should be Rick and Oliver Wakeman

      So thats 5 nil to the rock artistes.

      Forgot Patrick Moraz

      6 nil to the band

    139. Andy Ellis says:

      @Republicofscotland

      British nationalists in Scotland aren’t going to disappear after indy I imagine. Doubtless there will be a hard core of “bitter einders” calling for a restoration of the union. Many more however will keep their own council and, like all those shy Margaret Thatcher supporters, never admit that they used to be yoons.

      It won’t take long before Scottish unionists will be as rare as folk in the Republic of Ireland wistfully calling for the restoration of London rule.

      The more vocal britnats will either leave in disgust or go into self preservation mode and tell us they are now converted.

      I don’t know about anyone else, but it’s never going to get old telling them “you lost, get over it”. 🙂

    140. iain mhor says:

      “Firstly, we suppose, there’s the small fact that the entire bloody SNP is supposed to be an “independence taskforce”, all the time”

      This.
      Always this.
      The Alpha & the Omega.

    141. Wee Chid says:

      I thought that carrots were supposed to help you see in the dark? With the amount digested by the “Sturgeon Loyal” you would think that they had seen the light by now.
      Looking at all those headlines makes me so bloody angry at those who can’t accept that they are being conned. How did they get to be so gullible?

    142. kapelmeister says:

      For both the SNP leaders and that newspaper, indy is not a definite goal, but something that exists as an idea, and that’s how they would like to keep it.

      So I’ll start calling that journal The Notional.

    143. Davie Oga says:

      Somewhere in Bute House there will be a list.
      Sat – New Poll
      Sun – New independence Taskforce
      Mon – Covid
      etc. etc.

      Anything to distract

      None of which changes the facts.

      1) There are no plans for a referendum, let alone any plans for independence, currency, EFTA talks etc. Under the current circumstances, a government who intended to deliver independence would have a permanent representative/ Minister liaising with EFTA on regular basis.
      Thanks to the “we will not be dragged out” vote con, Scotland will have to apply to rejoin the EU. Any one who thinks it will be a quick road back is either lying or delusional. Immediate transition to EFTA will be necessary in the face of English intransigence or obstruction after a democratic event.

      2) The current Scottish government is a criminal enterprise. Thanks to collective responsibility under the 2016 Ministerial code, Nicky and The Gimps will surely go down together, unless some of them develop a brain or a spine.

      Anyone who thinks there will be a majority in May is deluded in the extreme. I would rate it as a national psychosis comparable to winning in Argentina 78. In the month leading up to the election there will be a daily dose of ” Sources say the NS may finally be charged with perverting the course of justice today” and on and on.

      People don’t vote for corrupt criminals awaiting a charge. If they lose 20% percent of the nationalist vote through abstentions, alternatives, plus the fact that 40% will never vote SNP anyway, there is no way they can pick the rest of the votes needed for a majority in a three way fight with Lib Lab for soft unionists.

      SNP will be lucky to get 42-43 percent. If it dawns on the majority of the population that they are voting for a psychologically damaged criminal, then all bets are off.

      I mentioned it on another thread. Politicians think they can control events to suit there purposes. Events have other ideas.

      In June 1993, Kim Campbell was the most popular Prime Minister in Canada history, leading a majority government.

      In November 1993, Kim Campbell led a bankrupt party with 2 MP’s that dissolved in the subsequent months.

      The wages of corruption.

      There is more likelihood that Sturgeon end’s up sharing a cell with one of the brave and stunning males she has put in women’s prisons than her ever deliverering another majority.

    144. Beaker says:

      Carrots don’t help you see in the dark if your head is up your arse.

    145. Breeks says:

      X_Sticks says:
      17 January, 2021 at 5:02 pm
      For those interested here’s Ian Blackford bigging up Dani Garvelli. You couldn’t make it up. I despair.

      Mind blowing.

      You tell yourself Blackford touring Scotland with Mhairi Black in tow after the drag act in the primary school carry on was just extremely poor judgement, or the tour dates were already booked.

      I’ve tried to defend Blackford for at least mouthing the words about Scotland’s Sovereignty, but it seems those castigating him as a blowhard were calling it right.

      Faith in the SNP was never especially high, but it is now tail spinning in open free fall.

    146. Davie Oga says:

      Pete Wishart and his brother were part of the original Big Country lineup before joining Runrig. They managed to get a slot supporting Alice Cooper on the UK shows of his world tour (early 80’s), but Alice sacked them because they were too “weird”.

      When someone who once sacrificed a chicken on stage sacks you for being weird…

    147. James Che. says:

      Lorna campbell, you have a good grasp of the treaty of the union then and now,
      And this is what I do not understand regards all the legal minds in the snp, not one of them put out this angle for the people to run on, when it was considered in courts, they tried to halt it.
      This reminds me of those whom sold Scotland for English gold in 1706-1707. (Supposedly, personally I feel the signituries whom signed the treaty made a personal contract with England, and it was in kept secret behind their closed doors, confirmed by whom the payments went to. they got payed for it,) no connection to the people and nation of Scotland,
      Now in 2021 it over three hundred years later looks like history is repeating it self,
      And once again they do not and would not dare to test it out with the Scottish people any more than they did in 1707. If negotiations are going on between Scotland & England again , it would be as illegal now as it was in 1707.
      I have always felt that the treaty of the union was one of the biggest scams ever presented on the Scottish people, leading them to believe it was real, and that it was [they] that had entered the contract, not the signatories on the treaty.
      That viewpoint aside, we the people need to look at what to do and who is failing us, and how we go forward in ensuring and announcing legally the 1707 broken treaty no longer has any merit or teeth to it, there has to be a compilation list of when and how the treaty has been broken, I have snippets that I have read, but that is not enough alone, but by all of us working together, we could add to this,
      and never let us be beholden to such a Wiley snare in the future, we cannot and should not rely on politicians,
      However it must be totally legal, we do not want to create further problems for Scotland and its people,
      OT And just for fun, I dreamed that Scotland became independent in 2023. I hope it is more than subconscious wishful dreaming, ?

    148. kapelmeister says:

      Expect a puff piece by Garavelli soon about Blackford, as gratitude.

    149. David Holden says:

      All this concern over what is happening over on WGD blog is a bit strange. It is a bit like all those people that sit through Mrs Brown’s Boys so they can moan about how shit it is the next day. If you don’t like what the zoomers in dugland are saying don’t read it. Simples.

    150. AM says:

      A couple of years ago I slagged off this writer for what i considered to be a campaign of false arguments and denying someone the benefit(the current FM) of doubt, Innocent until proven guilty. For over a year now I have known that this writer was absolutely correct in starting and maintaining that campaign. Along with others – Gordon Dangerfield, CM, BH Boy, Iain Lawson, Robin McAlpine, MHirst and many ordinary concerned Scots it is clear that without their efforts there would be precisely no chance of us every attaining our independence. And all at considerable risk to themselves and their reputations.
      I apologise. I am in your debt and I owe you for the work you do on our behalf.
      I was one of the hundreds of SNP members who paid their fee for conference for the single purpose of removing as many of the single issues frauds, identity rights cultists and slimy careerists from the NEC as possible.
      My fear now and it is fear. Is that this establishment corruption, the persecution of Alec Salmond and his friends and supporters will continue and that the truth will not come out.

      Keep it going

    151. twathater says:

      And to all those that say voting anything other than snp is just a vote for yoonionists , as Stu is forever pointing out where is the integrity and honesty within the snp when they continually reheat this same old pish to CON the electorate and it is a CON , they have had at least 6 years to convince and PROVE to the wider electorate (that includes no voters and DK) that Scotland NEEDS independence to survive , yet what have they done to EDUCATE people ( NOTHING )

      As a corrupt meaningless party who have LIED consistently to their supporters they DON’T DESERVE my vote and they won’t be getting it , and anyone who accuses me of letting the yoonionists into power only has to look at Sturgeon’s antics and corruption and realise that we already have unionists in power under the guise of the snp badge

    152. Bob Mack says:

      @David Holden,

      Wbat the hell has it got to do with you what we read ?

    153. Republicofscotland says:

      Andy Ellis @5.47pm.

      Indeed Andy, they won’t disappear after indy, I often wonder if the BritNat parties at Holyrood will still aid and inform Westminster after Scottish independence is obtained, afterall their funding comes from their head offices at Westminster.

      The only other topsy turvey Kafkaesque symbiotic relationship, if you want to call that between two other countries that I can think of that compares to Scotland and England is that of Israel and the USA, though in that instance Israel via its well placed politicians, powerful business folk and potent lobbying groups, who drain the USA taxpayer of its wealth and the country of its assets, Israel is the beneficiary from the larger country.

    154. Stuart MacKay says:

      Bob Mack,

      Paul made the mistake of becoming hostage to his paying readers out of necessity for himself. He now finds it almost impossible to criticise their world view.

      There are only a few loud voices on his blog. Everyone here would recognise the names. I’d be surprised if the majority (any) were paying subscribers.

      He is in a bit of a hole since the commentary morphed from “Tories Baaad” to “Anyone who says a whisper against Nicola Baaaad” and he went along with it. In earlier posts he touched a lot on what the effects of Tory rule from England meant to poor Scots, particularly in the east end of Glasgow. He could go with that and use the examples to show how an independent Scotland would be in a position to fix things. That way he could keep his optimistic market slot with a slight change to “Tories Baaad, Independence good”.

      The only problem is that he tied himself strongly to The Irrational and hence to the SNP. This was probably by choice and it made sense at the time until Murrell-Gate reared it’s ugly head.

      He should have a night of the long knives – clear out anyone bad mouthing anyone except Westminster and post a blog talking about building on hope and optimism; outline his vision for an independent Scotland and move on from there.

    155. Lorna Campbell says:

      HolyMacmoses: I mostly agree with your analysis of Stevenson. Almost all of Scotland’s literature confronts and exposes the two sides of Scotland’s psyche. Burns used the metaphor, too, as did many others, to show how we are our own worst enemy. The master of Ballantrae is, indeed, a gem in that it gives us a very clear insight into what has happened to us, and why.

      When the likes of Fletcher of Saltoun railed against the Treaty, he was not actually railing against what the Treaty itself had done, but what England and our own sycophants would do. He knew that, Treaty or no Treaty, the perfidy that England had always shown, would surface very quickly, aided by our own toom tabards. The jurist draftsmen of the Scottish Articles of the Treaty did try to “cover all bases”, as our American cousins would say, but it was always going to be a difficult task. I think they did their best in difficult circumstances but were defeated by the absolute determination of the English MPs to see the Union as an English conquest.

      However, that does not change the character of the Treaty. It is still extant. It will still be required to be part of any Union withdrawal negotiations with England, and it is still covered by international law. It is the will to understand it and have it ‘sound’ in law and laid before the Floor of the General Assembly of the UN as evidence of Westminster’s utter perfidy that is entirely lacking, not its efficacy or the reaffirming of words such as ‘forever’ that cannot be forced because they are now contrary to basic human rights, to the UN’s anti colonialism stance and to everyone’s right to self-determination. We are still a nation, albeit no longer a nation state, and the Treaty is still ours as much as England’s, but it is only in its international character that it is of any value to us. If we trade that in for domestic legal coverage, we hand it gratis to England. The old English parliament does not exist in law, any more than the old Scottish does. De facto, it has carried on, illegally, ultra vires, under the cover of the British parliament.

    156. Lothianlad says:

      This post particularly shows clearly just how awful sturgeon has been . In 2015 56 mps elected. Westminster in death grey zombie appearance is given defibrilation by sturgeon when she insists, ” this result is Not about independence “!!

      WTF is that woman on.??

      Westminster and the Yoon media shell shocked at the support and Mandate the people gave the SNP, and sturgeon plays it down like a mild council ward win.

      It is beginning to dawn on many people now , highlighted by the posts on wings, that sturgeon is working for, or at the least, being worked by, the British state!

      She must be removed, but she is hanging on as much as she can, to damage the indy cause.
      The indy cause is being set up to take the fall for the horrible corruption she is part of.

      Maximum damage to the indy cause by the Yoon media is the plan when they eventually print, report the corruption she is involved in.

      This is to swing the the polls back in the unionists favour.
      The strategy is damage the SNP and you damage independence.

      The brit state have their best hope operating g at the top of the SnP Scottish government.

    157. Effijy says:

      Update on Peoples Action on Section 30

      Good Evening Folks –
      I hope you are all safe and well.
      This is your friendly reminder that we’re 4 days away and counting from the case calling before the court of session.
      I shall contact you all in the coming days with the details for listening in for all those who wish to monitor proceedings.
      Call to action
      The fundraiser has been trundling along since it was re-opened, but I think it’s time to call everyone to action to put the pedal on the floor and send a clear message to the Tories at Westminster (now that xmas etc is over) that we’re in this all the way. I’d, therefore, very much appreciate it, if you would push hard on the fundraiser approaching the 21st.
      http://www.crowdjustice.com/pas30

    158. MaggieC says:

      Beaker @ 6:01 pm

      “Carrots don’t help you see in the dark if your head is up your arse. “

      Best comment of the day I would say . LOL

    159. Robert Hughes says:

      Kapelmeister – Can we then refer to the Sunday edition of that journal as The Fictional ?

    160. Alec Lomax says:

      twathater: how’s things at the SIU ?

    161. Saffron Robe says:

      Andy Ellis says:

      “This is the independence equivalent of tantric sex.”

      Andy,

      I don’t think the SNP hierarchy are engaged in tantra which is a very powerful discipline. If they were then they would have given birth to an independent Scotland a long time ago.

      I think they are hoping independence will come about by immaculate conception!

    162. Republicofscotland says:

      These are two fabulous articles on Iain’s very informative blog, they give me hope for a future independent Scotland.

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/01/16/section-one/

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/01/17/section-two/

    163. Terry says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      17 January, 2021 at 12:23 pm
      “SNP enter into about 2 years worth of legal wrangling with WM.”

      This bit isn’t very plausible, since after the Keatings case the legal issue should already have been settled one way or the other.

      Which is why they have tried to block and derail it at every opportunity – It will cut short their troughing time by two years. “Damn that martin keatings,” say the Murrells and the Troughers. “And those pesky 10,000 indy supporters who have funded it!”

    164. Papko says:

      “nverclyder
      Maybe we’ve already had Indyref2 and the high heid yins in the SNP kept it a secret!”

      That’s the kind of thing I think about.

      Reading through that catalogue of Front pages (which the Rev very sedulously put together).

      I do wonder how many more calls to arms the Scottish people need, or if they don’t actually need them or have any intention of using them.,

      They just need to know that they are there?

      If you see what I mean, For example if “we never vote Tory but get Tory” and this has been going on for the last 70 years.

      Does it not show that its does not bother us very much that we “get Tory” as we never doing anything about it when we do.

    165. David Holden says:

      @ Bob Mack Read whatever you like but just don’t inflict your moans on the rest of us. If you go on the Dug site you know exactly what you are going to get so don’t complain afterwards.

    166. Davie Oga says: ‘Pete Wishart managed to get a slot supporting Alice Cooper… but Alice sacked [him] because [he was] too “weird”.

      When Alice Cooper is weirded by the weird doings of another, it is weirdness indeed.

    167. Intractable Potsherd says:

      The usual apologists, “wheesht for indy” merchants and gradualists are a bit quiet today, aren’t they?

    168. John Digsby says:

      @Lorna Campbell

      The Parliament of England does not exist, that’s all I was saying. And the current Scottish Parliament is no such thing (if Westminster went mad and repealed the Scotland Act,it would cease to exist)

      I think the efforts here to discuss the Treaty are academically somewhat interesting, but are of no practical import. The realpolitik is that the Treaty is irrelevant as a matter of international law. It hasn’t been lodged at an international body, so it is essentially a piece if domestic legislation.

      I think agonising over a 300 year old document that has since been revised is a waste of time

    169. tricia young says:

      Effigy,

      Pledged, hope Martin can achieve our goal.

    170. robertknight says:

      Just bunged another £25 in the direction of Mr Keatings – a Just cause.

    171. John Digsby says:

      @stonefree

      There is no English Parliament. It was dissolved and the Union Parliament now exists.

      If you think the Treaty is like a contract, then who are the parties to it and how do they complain? A contract, like a modern treaty, has exit clauses and rights of redress. This document clearly does not.

      And from a legal principle, the Union Parliament is a Parliament of both English and Scots (and others obviously), so are they the competent authority to modify the treaty, or some non-exustent parliaments who signed it? And if the Union Parliament is competent, then how can Westminster have breached it?

      This may all have some fascinating answers, but it is scratching the surface of what we assume vs. what is a matter of law, and so is unlikely to really go anywhere in practical terms.

      Focussing on other routes like a plebicitary election is much better use of time, imo.

    172. David Holden says:

      Any of you still in the SNP know if members get to vote who goes on the list as that is what it looked like before Rhiannon took down her twitter account as if she was asking for a vote. We may need another good guys list for who gets to stand where on the list to try to hold the wokies at bay.

    173. That Daily Record headline is telling. It looks like even they were wanting her to get on with it. Might they have jumped across to the right side if she had?

      We’ll never know as here we are well over 4 years later and she’s STILL arseing around.

    174. IWhoRattledYourCage says:

      I just remembered a headline from long ago aboot a ‘swine odour task force’in America. Their ‘task’was to investigate why pig farms stink so much. Stuck in my mind cos I thought Swine Odour Task Force would make a great, fun, absurdist punk band name. I think the contemporary SNP task force parallel here is pretty obvious.

      http://www.mtcnet.net/~jdhogg/ozone/odor/swineodr.html

    175. Andy Ellis says:

      Just noticed this roaster who purports to be an @womenforindy board member on Grouse Beater’s twitter timeline:

      https://twitter.com/Suzemclaughlin/status/1350600865493753858

      Is it any wonder the movement is unable to make substantive progress with pieces of work like this supposedly on our side? Women for Indy – the movement which “gifted” us Natalie McGarry remember, and appear unable to run a whelk stall let alone progress the case for independence or the rights and interests of women.

      Most of us would cross the road to avoid nutters like this, still less campaign shoulder to shoulder with them. Can you imagine the kind of Scotland these kind of people would usher in? Is that what most Scots want?

    176. John Digsby says:

      Just to comment- I’m not expressing a view that your views on the Treaty are wrong, but even a couple of days reading shows this is a legal quagmire and is highly uncertain. And I fo not know to which court any rendyvcoukd be sought, nor how long it would take

      Also, simply renouncing the treaty will cause legal chaos- it won’t be as simple as repealing the Act of Union (for the sane reason the Act of Union for Ireland remained on their statute book fir 61 years after independence)

      My point is that it is probably a vastly harder slog than the other routes already discussed

    177. Big Jock says:

      It Martin Keatings wins his case, Sturgeon will have nowhere to hide!

      Why do you think the SNP were so desperate to block Martin’s case. Because he would expose their ruse. They have no intention of doing anything for five years. But their excuse will crumble if the Section 30 is in legal terms uneccessery.

    178. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      Andy Ellis, you have to ask yourself why there is a ‘women for indy’ branch anyway. Straight separatism. Not fans of men, eh? That zoomer you linked to can’t even spell ‘misogynist,’ (misspells it in her idiotic tweet) which is both ironically hilarious, and aboot the measure of these annoying clowns.

    179. Derek says:

      @paul says:
      17 January, 2021 at 4:29 pm

      Rick nand oliver Wakeman
      Tony Kaye
      Geoff Downes
      Eddie Jobson

      I stand corrected! Wrong Buggle…

    180. BJ says:

      Pete should be ashamed to admit that for twenty years his constituents have been returning him to Westminster to supposedly speak for them in their bid for independence but he’s now a liability and a failure, dump him. It might just sharpen up some others!

    181. Andy Ellis says:

      @WRYC

      I don’t actually have a problem with interest groups as such, it’s more about the kind of zoomers that seem to parasitise most of the indy ones? A bunch of low voltage second raters on a good day in most cases: either that or outright extremists, whether YSI, WomenforIndy, LGBTQWERTYforIndy.

      Sheesh…a parcel of rougues doesn’t have to be 18th century and bought for gold it seems? ?

    182. Pixywine says:

      How long is a length of string and is a carrot fetish a recognised psychosexual disorder?

    183. Beaker says:

      I don’t think it is necessarily a carrot that is being dangled. Perhaps it is a parsnip identifying as a carrot. Not necessarily donkeys either, more likely asses.

      I’ll go away now… 🙂

    184. MaggieC says:

      Andy Ellis @ 8.00 pm ,

      The Suzanne McLaughlin that put up that tweet stood for selection as an Snp Candidate for the Constituency of Glasgow Kelvin for this election in May but she wasn’t selected by the members .

      She also addressed the rally that the National held in George Square just before the Dec 2019 General Election , also her partner is / was ? Richard Walker who is the editor of the Sunday National .

    185. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      Andy Ellis, I like the fact she’s a National columnist. It’s all very indie-orientated. And explains everything.

      This is pretty funny. The Sunday Post is getting nippy! What would Francis Gay think? 🙂

      https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/chris-deerin-hardboiled-and-boiling-over-a-good-cop-a-bad-cop-and-a-fed-up-fm/

    186. DaveL says:

      A carrot taskforce eh? They’ll be along at the allotment with about six hundred thousand quids worth of spade rake wheelbarrow and pack of seeds. Given that it’s still winter it’ll be declared ‘now is not the time’.

      Gradualists everywhere will agree avow and declare with pride that winter cabbages have self identified as carrots and that indy is imminent but keep it quiet…secret plan an all that.

      Meanwhile over on the classifieds:

      Carrot for sale.
      Works well but tired. Enjoys walks on the beach, a good book and quiet evenings in etc. Still in original box. Reason for sale, getting a cabbage.
      Contact Peter Rabbit
      SNP Jacksons Close Edinburgh
      No time wasters.

      Aye ok…I’ll my coat.

    187. Checks notes says:

      David Holden says:
      17 January, 2021 at 7:50 pm
      Any of you still in the SNP know if members get to vote who goes on the list as that is what it looked like before Rhiannon took down her twitter account as if she was asking for a vote. We may need another good guys list for who gets to stand where on the list to try to hold the wokies at bay.

      From decisions taken at NEC 21 Jan 2021 “To remove the requirement for online nominations for those taking part in regional list ranking ballots. All approved candidates who have come forward will be put before members in a regional ballot during February”

      They’ve scrapped the nominations that caused so much bother last time. Good guys list going to be needed again

    188. Alf Baird says:

      John Digsby @ 7.40

      You state that “..the Treaty is irrelevant as a matter of international law.”

      And you have had this confirmed by which court? Please inform us which court has decided as you say?

      Some might argue that Scottish courts only exist today because of the existence of the Treaty?

      “Article 19 provided for the continuation of Scotland’s separate legal system.”

      What makes you so sure that a Scottish court would judge the Treaty that protects its very existence to be “irrelevant”?

    189. wee monkey says:

      And Boris cuts the purse strings.

      The outrage shall be almost overwhelming in it’s hypocrisy.

      I mean it’d not like the SNP/scot gov have ever been interwoven with fraud in it’s recent lifetime….council funding to the tune of £150 million not delivered; covid testing limited to produce “we’re better than england” stats…

      Eh..

      Eh…

    190. Hugh Jarse says:

      Deep down I think we all knew what the National was.

      Still worth having though.
      I’d miss my daily picking up a couple of copies to place at eye level, (Usually ower the piles of the Hail and Redcoat), and so would my local RS McColl staff.
      🙂
      …….
      Task force !
      Beyond even satire now.

    191. wee monkey says:

      And Nicola tries to wash the blood from her hands [and those of covid Jayne]

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-care-homes-probe-delayed-by-snp-poll-fears-claims-robert-kilgour-3svmx85vn

    192. wee monkey says:

      Hugh Jarse says:
      17 January, 2021 at 9:18 pm

      Quote

      Task force !
      Beyond even satire now.”

      I’ll have you know nicola chairs the “Scottish Aviation sector Covid Recovery task force”.

      A task force of one. No doubt inoculated too 😉

    193. BJ says:

      In avoiding the traps being set for him….The truth the whole truth….etc. I think it’s ridiculous that this has turned into a Merry dance for the man who was found innocent and I suppose the whole sorry scenario could be called dirty dancing.

      Donald Trump, as well as all the other troubles he has brought on his own head is now being asked to pardon members of the mob last week and their defence is TRUMP TOLD US TO DO IT!

      So what happens now? Does Trump pardon them and admit he incited all that violence and takes the consequences or does he throw them all under a bus and let’s them swing for it all? Makes you wonder what their judiciary, police, MSN and civil servants will do that is right.

    194. Dan says:

      50 millennia from now…

      Possibility of lockdown easing

      The now fossilised “Carrot of Destiny” is ceremonially placed where the Stone (now eroded to dust) used to be

      Location of ringfenced Indy fund yet to be established

      Now two mandate seasons per year

      Wishart having left politics supplements his income by modeling footwear for Barbour

      Questions remain on the worth of Both Votes SNP

      Blackford still mumbling “Scotland won’t be taken out of the EU against its will”

      The Notional’s latest poll shows surge in support for Indy

      Jeggit finally wins world chess championship

    195. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      BJ

      Trump will only pardon those that will help keep the grift going. He will not care two hoots about the dafties who stormed the Capitol in his name.

      Trump does things for Trump, no one else .So aye they’ll be thrown under the bus. No chance he’ll do time for them.

    196. Bob Mack says:

      @Dan,

      Lol !!

    197. Big Jock says:

      I will take Stu’s word for it.

      Sturgeon will not survive the Salmond sleaze cover up. For that I am grateful.

    198. Saffron Robe says:

      When is a carrot not a carrot?

      When it’s a mushroom, kept in the dark and fed on shit!

      Dan says:

      “50 millennia from now…”

      And transscientists finally confirm that pigs can indeed fly…

    199. Elmac says:

      So it has come down to them and us. Them being those who believe the SNP hogwash and us who have had the scales lifted from our eyes. At least that is how we see it. The sad fact is that we are all on the same side of the fence, we both want independence for our country. In our view the divide is due to the myopia of the Ginger Dug faction who fail to see the corruption, lies and apparent embezzlement of funds at the heart of the Sturgeon government. No doubt they feel that we are creating conspiracy theories where none exist.

      I find it difficult, to say the least, to bring myself to vote for the SNP on the constituency or list ballots until Sturgeon et al are gone. However if Sturgeon were to make the 2021 HR vote a plebiscite for Indy I might be prepared to swallow my revulsion of her and her cabal and vote SNP on the constituency ballot one last time. I would vote ISP on the list.

      Regrettably, I doubt she will make the forthcoming HR vote a plebiscite, in which case myself and my extended family, who have voted SNP for very many years, will not vote SNP on either ballot. If no alternative independence party is available we will vote for any independent candidate who we feel will do most for our area.

      Sad times. For an ever increasing number of independence supporters it is either put up or shut up time for NS. I trust her as far as I could throw her rotund husband but I sincerely hope she will see the writing on the wall and try to escape the retribution which will undoubtedly follow when the truth of the SNP shenanigans finally comes out, as come out it must. Go now NS and try to retrieve some modicum of dignity or be hounded out and risk jail time for ahat you and yout hubby have done.

    200. MaggieC says:

      WhoRattledYourCage @ 8.53 pm ,

      I had already seen that link to the Sunday Post elsewhere but it’s bloody good . I won’t say anymore in case anyone else hasn’t read it yet .

      The last line is fantastic , LOL .

    201. Colin Alexander says:

      In the Forward As One case, if the Court of Session ruled the subservient colonial parliament required a s30 order, the pressure for a Holyrood plebiscite election would increase.

      If the Court of Session ruled it’s within the competence of the colonial parliament to hold an advisory indyref without a s30, it destroys Sturgeon’s excuse that they require a s30. It would increase criticism of Sturgeon and the SNP regarding their previous insistence that a s30 was required.

      It would increase pressure on the SNP to name the day of indyref2 but, Sturgeon’s SNP always want to always kick that can down the road till sometime after an election. Forevermore.

    202. solarflare says:

      Elmac says:

      The sad fact is that we are all on the same side of the fence, we both want independence for our country. In our view the divide is due to the myopia of the Ginger Dug faction who fail to see the corruption, lies and apparent embezzlement of funds at the heart of the Sturgeon government. No doubt they feel that we are creating conspiracy theories where none exist.

      ———

      Even If (and I agree it is a big IF) you could somehow see past the corruption and lies part the evidence laid out by the Rev in this post basically shows that:

      At absolute best the SNP want independence but have no idea how to achieve it
      At worst they simply don’t want independence.

      So almost regardless of the whole Salmond shenanigans (again, appreciating that shouldn’t be ignored, but is just one symptom of the whole ungodly malaise), a new plan or vehicle seems an imperative.

      The “softly softly” approach to try and convert soft No voters into Yessers over a period of time might have been a good idea but it has take so long the SNP has likewise slowly changed to be a party of devolved government rather than a true raison d’etre of achieving independence.

      Indy for them has just become the handy hook on the back of the door that the whole election bandwagon hangs off.

    203. osakisushi says:

      “The Dead Carrot Sketch” must surely win some sort of Best Headline in 2021 award!

    204. Hugh Jarse says:

      Prentice must have considered the possibility that he’s the cut off. At the time of deciding to get Salmond probably.
      Next LA promises?

      The pasty for Wolffe.
      🙁

    205. Red Craig says:

      wee monkey says:
      17 January, 2021 at 9:26 pm

      “And Nicola tries to wash the blood from her hands [and those of covid Jayne]

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-care-homes-probe-delayed-by-snp-poll-fears-claims-robert-kilgour-3svmx85vn

      You don’t get away with that Yoon troll. The deaths in the care homes rest firstly at the doors of the owners resident in Brit Offshore Tax havens and secondly at the doors of those who put profits before lives of the residents of those care homes. Kilgour and his ilk should be in jails but that wont happen.

      Oh and I have a family member who works in Anderson’s in Elgin. That is a not for profit care home and it has yet to have any Covid 19 deaths or cases. So fuck off Yoon troll!!! You cant blame Sturgeon for this. You can blame her for the failure to deliver Indy but not for the care home deaths.

    206. Saffron Robe says:

      John Digsby,

      The Treaty of Union is the root of our current problems. Just because the roots of a plant are not immediately visible doesn’t mean to say they don’t exist. To get rid of the weed we need to pull it out by the roots, which means dissolving the Treaty of Union.

    207. Big Jock says:

      Saffron it’s not really a question of can we end the union. It’s actually a question of will. The current leader has zero interest in independence.

      The ship of Thesius, is what the SNP has become. A ship with every component part stripped out and replaced. It is no longer the same ship. So unfortunately we might have to build a new one.

    208. Robert Louis says:

      The treaty of union is simply a written agreement between two parties (Scotland and England). Like ALL treaties, it may be annulled or ended by either party. The utterly absurd notion that somehow the treaty of union is magic, and means it can never, ever, ever be ended is hogwash, pure unionist thinking.

      If England wanted to end the treaty of union, they simply would. The idea of somehow Scotland is different is a classic case of deep-rooted feelings of somehow Scotland isn’t really a country.

      Their is no other document which means Scotland is part of the union. None.

      All we need is a Scottish government prepared to do it, following a suitable democratic vote. That is all that is needed. Sadly our current FM is a weak coward, not prepared to stand up for Scotland’s constitutional and democratic rights.

      The treaty of union is not written in tablets of stone, it isn’t ‘special’ or have some kinds of special powers. Unionists like to make Scots think the union treaty is different, but it really, really isn’t.

      Either party can end ANY treaty. In the case of Scotland, we would immediately cease being run or controlled by Westminster. Once it is done, England has no claim over Scotland, unless they decide to use military force to annexe Scotland – but that is as likely as Boris Johnson joining MENSA.

    209. Aunty Flo says:

      Beaker

      If all this Scottish government corruption and criminal activity continues, then with any luck the cries of “The Polls! The Polls!” to which you refer may become “The Polis! The Polis!”

    210. Alf Baird says:

      Colin Alexander @ 10.30

      A more relevant court case could have been brought to establish if a majority of Scotland’s democratically elected MP’s may lawfully withdraw Scotland from the UK union, as it began, and as a number of Tory Prime Ministers acknowledged.

      If the answer to this question is yes then Scotland is already independent.

      If the answer is no then the Treaty must be deemed worthless, Scotland having the constitutional status of a colony, and any protection of the Scottish legal system afforded by the articles of the Treaty is likewise non existent – i.e. there is no such thing as a Scottish court.

    211. John Digsby says:

      There’s been a few spirited replies to my comments, which I appreciate. And I acknowledge that this is all rather untested – indeed, that’s my point

      My responses would be that:

      * there are at least two other documents that give rise to the Union, which are the two Acts of the Scottish and English Parliaments, as well as any revisions subsequently made by the joint Parliament. None of these can be ignored, and all will need careful undoing to achieve independence.

      * When I say it isn’t an international treaty, I meant in the narrow sense that it isn’t lodged at an international body like the UN. If it were obviously a treaty of this type, then presumably Scotland exits it using the Vienna Conventions (though doing it this way induces legal chaos)

      * Article 19 binds the Union Parliament not to undo the Scots legal system. It does not create it – it merely preserves what existed prior. The treaty isn’t irrelevant – I’m saying that I do not see how it helps at an international level

      * The fact is that all of this is highly speculative, and I can find countless legal opinions to support my point, and indeed to support every point others have made here. At the very least, this should convey that it isn’t the slam dunk people profess it to be – at best, it would be veryblong, drawn out and painful, and in my view (and that’s all it is), it is a process the general public are going to find bemusing without a public vote confirming independence first. So in all events you come back to the ‘simpler options’ of a plebicitary election etc.

    212. Hatuey says:

      Alf: “If the answer to this question is yes then Scotland is already independent.”

      …assuming those who voted were aware of those implications, then yes, it could be a possible route. If there was ever any assumption that a majority vote for the SNP would trigger anything like that, though, I haven’t heard it discussed since the 1980s, and since then we have entered into a new devolved relationship.

    213. John Digsby says:

      @Alf

      I agree with the sentiment that it would be good to establish which body, if any, can represent Scotland’s side of the Treaty.

    214. Beaker says:

      @Aunty Flo says:
      17 January, 2021 at 11:18 pm
      “If all this Scottish government corruption and criminal activity continues, then with any luck the cries of “The Polls! The Polls!” to which you refer may become “The Polis! The Polis!””

      Like that one, going to save it for later 🙂

    215. Hatuey says:

      Has anyone given a thought to what Tory and Labour politicians in London might think about the Salmond scandal? They most definitely will know about it, at least as much as we do.

      I imagine it’s been the source of a lot of speculation and chatter. Nothing like it has ever happened in British politics and even if a lot of them dislike Salmond (which I don’t believe btw), I can only imagine they’d take a very dim view of all this.

      They must think our politics has gone medieval and, as much as I generally don’t care what they think, it is quite an embarrassment. Like it or not, our politics is in the gutter today.

      Assuming the impact of all this is negative on perceptions of Sturgeon and the SNP leadership down south, and I think they’re probably appalled, are they likely to worry about upsetting anyone when they refuse her a section 30? It’s highly likely this will motivate them to be even more rejectionist and dismissive towards us.

    216. Lorna Campbell says:

      Alf: I would tend to agree with you, but, if, after a plebiscitary election in which the independence side (all parts of it together) won, an Westminster still refused to negotiate our withdrawal, we would have to use the Treaty. We would simply have to use it or enter into armed conflict with rUK to establish our rights. I agree that intransigence on the part of Westminster would tend to suggest that they could ride roughshod over the Treaty, but it would be up to us not to acquiesce again in our crushing.

      I do wish people would not confuse the Acts with the Treaty. The Treaty is the fundamental international agreement that the Acts ratified (and expanded to an extent). You cannot bind two countries by a domestic Act. Acts are domestic legal instruments and cannot change a Treaty which is grounded in international law. It is the Treaty that underpins the UK of GB, not the Acts. The Acts did the job of translating the Treaty into domestic law. Of course, they too, would require to be repealed come independence, but they are not the primary source of the UK of GB’s political authority.

      There can be no breaking the Union completely without resorting to the Treaty, if only at the negotiation stage. Cameron understood that in 2013 when he commissioned the Crawford and Boyle Report. The Scottish lawyers in the HoL understand that when they call for the Treaty to be negotiated as an Act, thereby sleekitly reducing it to domestic legislation within the remit of Westminster. Unless we understand what we have, we are going to do badly in any negotiations if we ever do regain our independence because you can bet your bottom dollar that Westminster will know every nook and cranny of the Treaty and try to shaft us all over again. I do wish people would stop listening to the siren voices telling us the Treaty is defunct and useless. It is far from it, and a half-decent constitutional lawyer could bring evidence that it is not. So much of the groundwork has already been done for us.

    217. Big Jock says:

      Lorna. The UK has already breached the more recent Great Britain and Ireland Treaty. It clearly states in that. That no country can have different or advantageous trading rights within the UK.

      I am surprised nobody in the SNP has threatened legal proceedings over it. Then again I’m not really surprised.

    218. Saffron Robe says:

      Many excellent and thoughtful comments regarding the Treaty of Union.

      I would concur with the general consensus – where there’s a will there’s a way!

      Unfortunately, as Stuart’s article makes clear, the SNP just don’t have the will, regardless of what they might say.

    219. Liz says:

      Robert Louis @ 1.12

      With regard to the unity fund – I won’t hold my breath that anything much comes north of the border any time soon.

    220. shug says:

      If there is anyone in the SNP thinks there will be no indyref2 till 2026 they must be on drugs. If we do not exit the UK soon there will be nothing left worth saving.
      Manufacturing on any scale is gone farming and fishing is next.
      In any case Westminster will have disposed of Holyrood by then.
      Indyref2 has to be this year.

    221. vlad (not that one) says:

      @John Digsby 23:22

      (Re Treaty of Union approach)… The fact is that all of this is highly speculative, and I can find countless legal opinions to support my point, and indeed to support every point others have made here. At the very least, this should convey that it isn’t the slam dunk people profess it to be – at best, it would be very long, drawn out and painful, and in my view (and that’s all it is), it is a process the general public are going to find bemusing without a public vote confirming independence first. So in all events you come back to the ‘simpler options’ of a plebicitary election etc.

      Exactly, well said. If the Scottish electorate were to take a deep breath and democratically choose independence by whatever means might be available, that would be the end of the matter.

      Just a moderate pile of housekeeping matters left to sort out, but nothing to worry about, legal folks should be delighted to take it upon themselves to sort it out.

      For my money, I am a Yesser.

    222. Saffron Robe says:

      I’ve just read Chris Deerin’s article in the Sunday Post. What a good read, with a real BOOM BOOM moment at the end as MaggieC says.

      I think when NS gives evidence in her defence it will be a case of “knowledge makes a bloody entrance” and she will need a time machine to make sense of her timelines and cover up her double-cross!

    223. Davie Oga says:

      Hatuey,

      Probably appalled, and a lot sound advice to never find yourself alone with The FM and her Chief of Perjury when they are in London. Always have witnesses, preferably female, if you have to deal with them.

    224. twathater says:

      @ Alec Lomax 7.19pm twathater: how’s things at the SIU ?
      A lot better than at the SNP

      Alec I notice you come on to Stu’s site occasionally and drop yir wee snide comments , I also notice you NEVER engage with the conversation or the post , is your real name Peter by any chance and do you use whatsapp

    225. twathater says:

      @ saffron robe 7.27pm, I think they are hoping independence will come about by immaculate conception!

      You’ve spelt that wrong SR it is immaculate CORRUPTION

    226. Saffron Robe says:

      Big Jock, your allusion to the ship of Thesius really got me thinking. It is not the components of the ship which have changed – we the Scottish people, the grassroots movement, remain the same – it is only the people at the controls who have changed. Replace Nicola Sturgeon with Alex Salmond for instance and we are right back on track. This may also explain why Nicola Sturgeon is so afraid of Alex Salmond.

    227. Davie Oga says:

      The NEC met and Peter Murrell is still Chief Executive.
      Just like the old NEC?

      The new treasurer has access to the books,
      Where is our money?

    228. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      The Groundhog Carrot Fae The SNP sketch

      This Above The Line article is almost as good as Monty Puthon’s Dead Parrot sketch.

      This page’s URL page link with all these newspaper front pages should be used as a standardd response to the Sturgeonite McWokeist Trolls on Twitter, Farcebook, Wee Ginger TrollHostage and Scot Goes Pfft.

      I can see only one answer to this chronic 7 year long Sturgeon Bourach.

      Alex Salmond is going to have to come out of retirement and head up the LIST Indy Party (LIP).

      The inertia of political machines are such that the SNP are LIKELY to win a lot of seats for Holyrood in May 2021.

      Alex and a dozen REAL SNP MSPs from the LIP party stand a very good chance of being elected.

      Alex needs to then hold the Sturgeonite MSP’s Feet to the fire and demand IndyRef2 or tell Nicola she will NOT be First Minister.

      A wee bird tells me this may already be part of the plan.

      ——

      Stu., Craig Murray left you a message at 3.28pm today. Here it is just in case you missed it…

      “Stu.,

      haven’t been able to phone you for over 24 hours – straight to out of service message. Last time we spoke we joked about speaking again unless the police came and confiscated your phone. Now I am concerned.”

    229. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Thank you Chris Deerin and the Sunday Post…

      https://archive.is/5x1aw

    230. paul says:

      twathater says:
      18 January, 2021 at 1:30 am

      @ saffron robe 7.27pm, I think they are hoping independence will come about by immaculate conception!

      You’ve spelt that wrong SR it is immaculate CORRUPTION

      I think the secret plan is a stork will deliver it via bute house chimney.

      Handy if they’ve just put in one of those flame effect fires.

    231. twathater says:

      @ Andy Ellis 8pm Thanks for that link Andy went over to have a looksee WOW what a disturbed rant for a political candidate this lunacy magnifies how untouchable these twats feel and illustrates the calibre of people Sturgeon feels at home with

      Well worth a look to see the type of people we would be voting for to start our journey after independence and the BRAVE new leaders who will represent us
      QUESTION where is it again they will be building the new gulags or is this one of the secrets not to be divulged

      https://twitter.com/Suzemclaughlin/status/1350600865493753858

    232. Breeks says:

      vlad (not that one) says:
      18 January, 2021 at 12:36 am
      @John Digsby 23:22

      (Re Treaty of Union approach)…

      ……Exactly, well said. If the Scottish electorate were to take a deep breath and democratically choose independence by whatever means might be available, that would be the end of the matter.

      Aye, well, the Catalonians and Spanish Constitution can probably put a hole in the bottom of that particular row boat.

      It’s disheartening to hear YES people so dismissive of Scotland’s sovereign constitution. Sovereignty is THE difference between a vote that counts and a vote that doesn’t. It’s a right which should not be surrendered lightly.

      If sovereignty is really nothing more than “speculation by countless legal opinions”, aren’t you remotely curious why the ambiguous uncertainty still remains ‘uncertain’ after 300 years, but funny how it’s a convenient uncertainty about Scottish Sovereignty which is invariably exploited by Westminster and Unionists, who choose to interpret the ambiguity in a way which empowers them, while amongst Indy supporters, there is a forlorn willingness to interpret the constitutional ambiguity to affirm their belief they are powerless.

      Funny how that “Convention” of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty works isn’t it? Create a lie which empowers you and weakens your opponents.

      So crack on chaps! Well said! Hurrah! Ya! Boo! Sucks! To Scotland’s 1320 Constitutional Sovereignty, and all hail the colonial sovereignty of Section 30 of the 1998 Scotland Act. Sovereign capitulation is such an infinitely smarter strategy than “the Treaty of Union approach” eh?

      There are two types of colonialist. Those who do the colonising, and those who capitulate and acquiesce to being colonised. Scotland suffers greatly from a gross excess of both, and both are enemies of Scotland which the Declaration of Arbroath would see “driven out”.

      I prefer to count myself as one of that hundred who will never, under any circumstance relinquish Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty to anyone, and for as long as I live.

    233. TJenny says:

      Al-Stuart – Thank you for posting the archived link to Chris Deerin’s Sunday Post article. Superb, and what a sting in the tail.

      https://archive.is/5x1aw

    234. susanXX says:

      Independence Taskforce? We’ve gone well beyond that stage. The SNP really ARE out of touch with the Yes movement. Shame on them trying to rein us in and manage our expectations.

    235. John Digsby says:

      @Breeks

      The Spanish Constitution expressly forbids secession. There is no equivalent in UK law, so the Catalonia situation doesn’t arise.

      For whatever its myriad faults, the UK helped arrange the 2014 vote and there is no reason to think it wouldn’t have abided by it. The fact is, we collectively bottled it and the people of Scotland voted to stay in.

      The people of Scotland are sovereign, but in respect of of international recognition the same could be argued about most peoples when they express their right to self-determination. The issue isn’t that Scots aren’t sovereign, it is finding a means of that popular expression

      Without popular expression, dissolving the treaty is legally questionable (and because it would cause legal chaos isn’t something you’d want to do willy nilly) as there are no exit clauses for mere politicians to exercise.

      So I am not arguing against Scottish popular sovereignty. I am not arguing that the treaty, or its implementation, would not need unpicking (though this took Ireland 61 years). I’m saying that on its own, the treaty is not a route to independence – the will of Scots must be demonstrated somehow first.

      This obviously could be a S.30, but we all know that’s not imminent. So a plebicitary election is all I can currently think of – the issue is not having a government in Scotland willing to take that risk.

    236. Grey Gull says:

      Hatuey@11.49
      The politicians down south certainly do know about the inquiry and what’s going on. I saw a clip the other day of Jacob Rhys Mogg taunting Tommy Sheppard about it in Westminster. Sorry I don’t have a clip to share but JRM was loving every moment and there was no response from Tommy Sheppard.

    237. Grey Gull says:

      Couldn’t find the video clip but here is what JRM said in parliament last Thursday in response to Tommy Shepard’s question

      “ Once again, the hon. Gentleman repeats his question, and I will therefore repeat the answer: it is very clear that the people of Scotland made their views clear in a vote in 2014, which was said to be a generational vote. That was the democratic mechanism that they had, the democratic mechanism that was used, and the democratic mechanism that was accepted by the Scottish National party at the time.

      What is going on in the SNP is interesting, is it not? I thought the hon. Gentleman might want to tell us a bit about that—about the rows between Mrs Sturgeon and Mr Salmond, with one accusing the other of not being entirely accurate in her evidence to the Scottish Parliament’s Committees. I thought he might be asking for a debate on that. Would it not be interesting to understand all the shenanigans that are going on—the accusations of forgetfulness, of money being spent, and of breaches of the ministerial code? Not a word of that: just the old complaint that the referendum in 2014 was not a valid referendum. It was: it was authoritative, and it was a once-in-a-generation vote. That is absolutely right, and we see the benefits of the Union. The figure I have previously given for UK taxpayers’ support for Scotland has gone up: it is now £8.6 billion. The strength of the United Kingdom is helping Scotland face this pandemic, and that is why the United Kingdom is so strong and is to the advantage of all its people……..”

    238. Captain Yossarian says:

      @Grey Gull – I remember it was Nicola Sturgeon who taunted all at Westminster about the Westminster expenses scandal and so what goes round comes around, as they say.

      The Westminster expenses scandal coincided with an upturn in support for Sturgeon and that will not have escaped folk like JRM.

    239. Robert Hughes says:

      re Chris Deerin’s ( excellent ) article . Could this be the start of a new literary genre – Holyrood Noir ?

      I can easily imagine someone like Peter Mullan as the shabby but sharp as nails, chain-smoking outsider PI in any film version

      ” Right hen , spare us the ” resiled ” pish , we know you’re up to your daft wee mask in the Salmond fit-up , how aboot savin us aw time n jist ´fessin-up eh ? “

    240. Alf Baird says:

      John Digsby

      “we collectively bottled it and the people of Scotland voted to stay in”

      Most Scots did not bottle it. It did not help that perhaps over a quarter of voters did not have a Scottish national identity or ‘sense of belonging’ to begin with, thanks to a local government residence-based franchise being used for a national referendum. Most Scots voted Yes, while most folks holding to other national identities voted No to reject the offer of Scottish nationality and Scottish citizenship, as might be expected.

      Does nobody pay attention to Scotland’s census? It is people who vote after all, and perceptions of our national identity are critical when it comes to constitutional matters – more especially on an issue such as the national self-determination of a defined ‘people’, i.e. the Scots.

    241. Robert Hughes says:

      Alf – This is the truth that dare not speak it’s name – that most native Scots voted YES in 2014 – for fear of being labelled/libelled ” Blood and Soil ” Nationalist .
      And why it will always be very difficult to win a referendum with such a broad franchise as the previous one .

      Not sure what the solution to this inherent handicap could be , but exploration of alternative routes to Independence is an absolute essential , as yourself , and others have been advocating

    242. Republicofscotland says:

      FFS, I’m beginning to get really pissed off with this party.

      Its rejected a motion calling for the party to set up an advanced working group to achieve independence

      The NEC’s even rejected the motion for a Plan B, by Chris McEleney and Angus B. MacNeil.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/19018288.snp-nec-votes-motion-indy-strategy-working-group/

    243. Breeks says:

      John Digsby says:
      18 January, 2021 at 7:55 am
      @Breeks

      The Spanish Constitution expressly forbids secession. There is no equivalent in UK law, so the Catalonia situation doesn’t arise…

      Jeezo. It doesn’t arise BECAUSE Scotland has Constitutional Sovereignty! Scotland has a Constitution which enshrines sovereignty upon the people, and it’s a Scottish Constitution which neither England nor the United Kingdom can wield, or alter. If they could have, they would have, but they CAN’T.

      That also means Scotland wouldn’t ‘secede’ from the UK, because Scotland couldn’t secede from the UK because the UK is NOT, and never has been, our mother country from which we’d be tearing ourselves away from. The UK is a bipartite Treaty between two sovereign equals. If either Nation left the Union, there would be no secession, no seceding State, no Continuer State, just the simplicity of no more Union existing between two constitutional equals.

      If that wasn’t true, if Scotland ‘seceded’ from the UK, you would create a seceding Scottish Nation and a Continuer UK Nation, ( not English). That is NOT correct. If and when the UK splits, nothing is created, but the sovereign components which formerly comprised the Union re-emerge as separate constitutional equals, – Scotland and England.

      It is furthermore the reason why Independence cannot be declared by what convention describes as a controversial UDI, because a UDI creates a Nation by establishing a Nation, but Scotland IS established as a nation. It’s boundaries are known and largely undisputed. It’s Laws are known and largely undisputed. It’s origin, it’s papal recognition, it’s chronology and provenance as one of the oldest Nations in the world is beyond dispute.

      Scottish Independence is not about the ‘creation’ of a Nation, Scottish Independence is marked by liberation, a divorce, freedom delivered by the long overdue death of ONE treaty, and a Treaty so routinely abused by one signatory to the Union Treaty that the Treaty currently hangs by a thread.

      Scottish Independence is also NOT a ‘modification’ or adjustment of the UK, it is the END of the UK. The UK will no longer exist. To discuss Independence as a secession is simply wrong. No ifs, no buts, WRONG.

      These are FACTS. Don’t do the work of the Unionists by lending credence to false and contrived legitimacy of the 1707 Union, which instead of resolving the defining issue of incompatible respective sovereignties between Scotland and England, but born out of colonial expediency and necessity, created an unwritten “convention” of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty as a workaround solution to a Constitutional “Union” which was, is, and always will be impossible.

      Scotland MUST get it’s head around these issues, or we will lose Scotland forever to the manipulative sophistry and delusion of what the United Kingdom properly is, and what it is not, and we lose all to the grasping colonialism of Westminster, our would-be sovereign usurper.

      Scotland simply doesn’t fit the English mould of sovereignty. Scotland is the oil, England is the water, and UK Treaty of Union is the glass beaker holding both together, but by their very nature, the oil and water are constitutionally incapable of becoming joined. Scottish Independence is currently tapping the glass with a hammer…

      Those of us who want Independence MUST rally to the defence of Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution. We can make do and mend, improvise as needed for everything else, but forfeit that sovereign Constitution and we are in desperate trouble.

    244. stonefree says:

      @ wee monkey at 9:26 pm

      Kilgour has his own agenda, he wanted money to pay for PPE, for his carehomes or the SG to provide them, originally he posted articles as a Private Care Home body I think he had about four articles in the Herald and National
      Care homes are/were notoriously bad payers
      I believe he gave £90K to the Tories
      That would have bought a lot of PPEs

      I would think he’s crapping himself , reasoning that care home might be bought over

    245. Famous15 says:

      Is it true that Donald Trump accidentally executed a hundred prisoners he meant to pardon?

    246. Effijy says:

      For pity sake tell Lord Snooty for once and for all
      a politician’s opinion was that the referendum may be once in a lifetime!

      It wasn’t a bill passed in Holyrood, it isn’t part of any legislation, it isn’t
      part of our constitution.

      That retort is less than pathetic from someone who revels in a £30k per annum education from Eton.

      Perhaps he could understand the situation if a fellow toff translated it into Latin for him.

      Now if was dumb enough to say the words from a politicians mouth must become fulfilled then Boris
      is to be found dead in a ditch since failing to leave the EU in October 2020.
      The Tory guarantee to wipe out U.K. debt within 5 years of the 2010 election can now erase the 2 Trillion debt they built up before Covid arrived, or perhaps the Vow that would see Scotland the most
      Powerful devolved parliament in the world would then mean they need to stop stripping the most important 24 powers we have and we would receive the powers that are ours to be returned from the EU.

      Where is the voice of the SNP.?
      Where is the desire to fight back and defend your country?’
      Where is their road to Independence?

      I’m seeing and hearing nothing of any substance from any of them!

    247. Breeks says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      18 January, 2021 at 9:44 am
      FFS, I’m beginning to get really pissed off with this party….

      Archived copy so all can read… https://archive.is/DhSiA

      SNP seems like some leviathan oil tanker heading for the rocks, and there’s nothing going to turn it around.

      Every chance the SNP gives itself becomes another chance to shoot itself in the foot.

    248. Achnababan says:

      Alf And Robert just above on national identity.

      The SNP have shied away from this issue for fear of being slurred by the blood and soil nationalism trope.

      Understandable, but what I don’t understand with the SNP is the nature of their engagement with this issue…. they seemed to have buried national identify 6 foot under!!

      Identity is the bedrock of all nations … it is the fabric upon which the nations of the world are built and the world is run.

      Yes by all means we should welcome New Scots (my wife is one) but we should be promoting what Scottish means to all – old and new! My wife has become a keen Scots speaker and cooks/bakes often from Scots recipe books

      It is not our DNA that makes us Scots – it is our strong commitment to egalitarian values especially in education and health, our distinctive languages, our sense of humour etc etc… make us Scots.

      To do nothing is to accept colonisation —- and I dont just mean by another nation but also be the corporations that actually want to mess up the concept of identity (and then extinguish it), so that they can sell more ‘stuff’.

      Global corporations think the world is too diverse and complicated and this hurts their profits – well I am of the opposite mind. Loss of culture is as undesirable than the loss of a species and both have a common driver – corporate greed and corrupt politicians.

      We can fight back -speak yer ain language as much as possible and teach it to New Scots. Buy local whenever you can. Demand better wages and working conditions from super rich companies and look after your own health more.

      Stop cringing and get up off your knees!

    249. avocado devil says:

      … slightly OT but i just got a party political letter from the nicholas turgeon love-me party about covid. included is a helpful leaflet entitled ‘GET THE RIGHT CARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE’ (not my shouting). it contain gems of wisdom like ‘tooth pain: go to your dentist’, ‘suspected heart attack: try A&E’.

      this is what NS’s ‘100% attention’ has given us; but ‘she’s doing very well, look at the polls….’

      However, i was amused by ‘flashes and floaters: see your optometrist’.

      OK I’ll get my coat….

    250. Ellie says:

      Avocado, A wee bit of humour is appreciated in these bleak times. But don’t forget your hat!

    251. Breeks says:


      Ellie says:
      18 January, 2021 at 10:38 am
      Todays Kevin McKenna column (archived).
      SNP: Independence Taskforce: SNP dreams up a new way to dupe supporters

      Best quip I’ve seen in response to the SNP’s Task Force was somebody saying “We thought we already had an Independence Task Force, it was called the SNP”.

    252. Ellie says:

      Best quip I’ve seen in response to the SNP’s Task Force was somebody saying “We thought we already had an Independence Task Force, it was called the SNP”.

      I think the SNP need to heed such comments and get back to their real day job.

    253. Ellie says:

      Breeks,sorry above reply to you. I meant to italicise only your comment – my basic HTML skills rusty. soz

    254. George Rutherford says:

      Famous15
      AYRSHIRE NOB
      Brian doon The (I’ll talk about anything other than Sturgeon Bad) Toon.
      Liz g

      Go on,,,say just one bad thing about Sturgeon,,, just one.

      If not, then geez awe peace and stay on the Wee Gingerbread Man’s website, where you all get a free tattoo of the Sun shining out of Sturgeon’s arse.

    255. holymacmoses says:

      paul says:
      18 January, 2021 at 2:32 am
      twathater says:
      18 January, 2021 at 1:30 am

      @ saffron robe 7.27pm, I think they are hoping independence will come about by immaculate conception!

      You’ve spelt that wrong SR it is immaculate CORRUPTION

      Personally I think Sturgeon et al aim for
      ‘immaculate misdirection’

    256. ben madigan says:

      as was promised/threatened some days ago!

      Lorries used to transport British shellfish have parked on the roads near Downing Street after experiencing delays getting into the EU due to new Brexit rules.

      At least 10 lorries were parked up, with one carrying the slogan “Brexit Carnage”
      “so far the lorries have remained closed”

      https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-shellfish-lorries-park-near-downing-street-as-new-rules-cause-severe-delays-at-eu-border-12191385

    257. Liz says:

      Re the McKenna article. Thats twice now I ‘ve seen it suggested this task force will be used as an excuse to explain the missing £500k.

      FFS could the current SNP admin be any more corrupt

    258. Alf Baird says:

      Robert Hughes @ 9.41

      Yes, it may reasonably be argued that the dilettante, irregular and poorly understood ‘civic nationalism’ approach of the SNP actually helped to thwart Scots our independence in 2014.

      ‘Civic nationalism’ requires those holding to other national identities to hold a sense of belonging and hence allegiance to the nation/people in which they now live. This is understandably a difficult decision for those residents/settlers who still primarily hold to their own national identity and who in large numbers took the opportunity in 2014 to reject the offer of Scottish citizenship, and who in the process also actively prevented the self-determination of their host people and nation. This No vote on the part of those still holding to other national identities therefore seems rather more a xenophobic act and rather less one of demonstrating any ‘sense of belonging’ to a Scottish people/nation.

      As post referendum research concluded, residence is recognised as a very weak marker of national identity (Bond 2015), which helps explain why all other countries restrict national referendum votes to the ‘nationals’ of the nation concerned, with any residence based franchise only tending to be used for local elections.

      National identity (the basis of which is culture and language) is clearly always going to be a critical factor in any vote on national self-determination.

    259. NellG says:

      In struggle to believe any party is this out of touch or incompetent by chance.

      It’s obvious to me this is the narrative the British state have opted for as a means to destroy the SNP and movement from within. The plan is currently being executed to near perfection. The only missing piece was to land Alex in jail by removing him from the picture entirely.

      It’s human nature not to be too harsh on people just for being totally useless, you may even feel some empathy, however, being exposed as a Unionist infiltrator would be counter productive and galvanise the movement. Hiding behind a mask of incompetence is the cleanest solution and one designed not only to remove support but also any real scrutiny.

    260. Boaby says:

      Alf baird 11.40 am. A very sensible on the money post alf, of which no doubt you will be pilloried for. One of the main reasons in my personal belief, why Scotland sadly will never become independent. And no amount of persuading and cajoling will ever sway some people.

    261. Benhope says:

      The comments above about national identity remind me of how the English and Welsh Covid press conferences always display large union jacks and Welsh flags behind the speakers. When Nicola speaks, not a Saltire to be seen. Totally sums up the attitude of the current SNP leadership. Are they ashamed to display any Scottishness?

    262. Robert Hughes says:

      ” National identity (the basis of which is culture and language) is clearly always going to be a critical factor in any vote on national self-determination.” . Indeed Alf .

      The question then is how does one define ” Native ” ? One generation of Scottish familial residence , two , three ?

      In principal extending the franchise to any resident irrespective of how they ( sorry ! ) identify is a generous well-intentioned gesture , but one that may ultimately cost us our liberty .

    263. Xaracen says:

      “Brexit Carnage”

      Maybe supplemented by “You broke it, you bought it!”

    264. Famous15 says:

      I see you trying to sneak in the blood and soil nationalism.

      If you cannot argue the obvious case for independence without excluding those you would exclude from suffrage on the basis of ethnicity then you are lost.

      I am not now a member of the SNP as I cannot abide the FM and her policies. (Shhhhh do not tell Mr Rutherford.

      I believe the Treaty of Union is a live agreement and the result of an election with the winning and majority party having independence first and foremost in its manifesto would be sufficient.

    265. Alf Baird says:

      Achnababan @ 10.32

      Aye, national identity is always foremost in cases of national self-determination, as you imply.

      Another national identity cannot be forced on those who do not want it, which is imperialism and colonialism. Oppressed peoples will always tend to reject an imposed national identity, much as independent minded Scots are doing by casting off a British identity and its associated imperial and colonial oppressions.

      As you say “Identity is the bedrock of all nations … it is the fabric upon which the nations of the world are built and the world is run.”

      Very much related to this, Frantz Fanon referred to the importance of ‘national consciousness, which is not nationalism, and is the only thing that will give us an international dimension’.

      In this the (Scottish) culture and language of a people is so vitally important, as they form the basis of national identity and hence give us our national consciousness also. We aw ken why the British state haes aye refused tae lairn Scots bairns oor ain Scots langage! For the oppressor does not wish to elevate a minority language and culture, and in the process strengthen that national identity.

      And as even Cambridge Analytica might acknowledge, people vote on the basis of emotion, and we will struggle to find a stronger emotion for any people than their ain national identity.

    266. Effijy says:

      I was researching what happened to the Brexit
      Divorce payment of £39 Thousand Million.
      It sees a great deal of it was paid last year during the
      Covid crisis?
      A further £18,000 Million is going to be paid this year, although the
      EU said it could be paid over 30 years.

      With the highest levels of debt since world war 2 in place before the incredible
      debts added by Covid and the vast sums given to Tory supporters for unknown PPE supplies
      why would Westminster be so keen to hand out Billions to the EU that they don’t have to at present?

      Also read a good news story that Scot gov is distributing money to councils that
      will help self employed taxi drivers who have have no support up to this point.

      Although this is a good story in itself, U.K. media has to ask thick as mince Tory
      Douglas Ross to comment and he isn’t happy it’s taken a week to be launched?

      Wonder where is comments and vote went when the Tories where against free school meals
      for the poorest kids in England.

      Ross, the Tory Party and U.K. Media are a cancer that needs to be excised from Scotland immediately!

    267. Pixywine says:

      I can truly honestly say I did not notice Richard Leonards departure. Or was it Leonard Richard? I’m not sure now.

    268. Colin Alexander says:

      Alf Baird said:

      “A more relevant court case could have been brought to establish if a majority of Scotland’s democratically elected MP’s may lawfully withdraw Scotland from the UK union”.

      Truth be told: it is the SNP, with the full ( or should that be fool) support of the independence movement, which has denied the people of Scotland the opportunity to end the Union via the ballot box, by their insistence that you MUST first elect the SNP into power. THEN the SNP MIGHT allow the people an indyref.

      That screw has been tightened even more by Sturgeon’s SNP, who has now made it: The SNP might allow you an indyref if the UK Government is also agreeable to it – which they aren’t.

      While the SNP and indy-movement have been celebrating having a subservient colonial parliament, Scotland went from a small minority of 71 MPs out of 635 UK MPs in 1979 to currently 59 out of 650 MPs. In percentage terms, in 1979 Scotland had 11% of UK sovereignty. Now, Scotland has 9% of UK sovereignty. The plan is to reduce that even further. Scottish MPs are now also second-class MPs because of EVEL.

      Scotland, constitutionally, is arguably in a far worse position NOW than it has been for the last 50 years.

      Opinion polls and a single lost indyref has not won Scotland anything. The real situation is the total screwing over of Scotland helped by the SNP and backed by the independence movement’s hero worshipping of Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon and the complete acceptance of SNP gradualism first installed as policy by Alex Salmond’s SNP, which has been a disaster for Scotland.

    269. shug says:

      John Digsby
      There may not be a law banning secession at the moment!!

    270. Robert Hughes says:

      Famous 15 – no one is trying to ” sneak in ” anything , least of all Blood and Soil Nationalism .

      The points people like Alf and Breeks are making are entirely legitimate , I only wish they were more widely known and discussed .
      Our infamous ” Cultural Cringe ” is also apparent when questions of national identity are mentioned . About time this changed

    271. Tom says:

      from Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine this morning:

      “… and what of the women? They are shockingly absent in this. Two women let down by a complaints process that was meant to support them and the only time they get a mention is when it is politically convenient for the First Minister or her spokespeople to deflect criticism from her and back onto Salmond.

      I am heartily sick of hearing Sturgeon repeat the poor woman playbook that she is being punished for the behaviour of a man.

      I am offended by her batting off attempts at scrutiny over whether she lied or not with a reminder that this is about Salmond and not her.

      I am appalled by the claim that her chief of staff allegedly revealed the name of one of the complainants to someone who used to work for Salmond but at the time was no longer in government, never mind politics.

      I am flabbergasted by a permanent secretary who didn’t consult the women complainants about mediation, took their case to the Crown over their heads and presided over a ridiculously cursory investigation into who, among a very tight circle of names, could possibly have leaked the details of the complaints against Salmond to a tabloid newspaper, potentially opening the women up to exposure.

      And I am angry that a parliamentary committee that seeks to get some justice for complainants, by getting answers as to why this all went so horribly wrong, is frustrated in its attempts to scrutinise the key protagonists by obfuscation, memory loss, legal privilege and accusations that they are the ones exploiting the complainants for “political purpose”. ”

      To be fair to Mandy Rhodes, the above is just an extract (for the pleasure of Wingers) from her full article, so check out the full piece here:

      https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,what-about-the-women?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Holyrood%20Morning%20Roundup%2018%20January%202021&utm_content=Holyrood%20Morning%20Roundup%2018%20January%202021+CID_065c8177de75c0d6e038a728874d714d&utm_source=Email%20newsletters&utm_term=What%20about%20the%20women

      James Foley on Source (Common Weal) is particularly interesting this morning too, explaining why (as I understand him) the SNP hierarchy and Tories need one another to keep the Yes movement at bay:

      https://sourcenews.scot/source-direct-breaking-free/

    272. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I think that a 5 year residential qualification for referendums would be fair.

      I would hope to see more referendums (like Switzerland) in an independent Scotland. “People’s choice” an’ thah’…

    273. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Plenty of us here have had our differences over the pandemic. And that’s allowed, right?

      I hope we can at least agree that scaremongering really isn’t required – folk are scared enough as it is.

      So why does the FM, in response to a question about vaccine take-up by care home staff, use the expression ‘anti-vaxx forces’ in her answer? (She just did it there, at 12.44)

      Nicola Sturgeon has repeatedly personified this virus, as if it’s a cartoon villain waiting to pounce on the unwary. Difficult to imagine how frightening that kind of imagery is for someone who is alone and has no family or friends to discuss it all with. And this ‘anti-vaxx forces’ patter just intensifies the fear, as if any and all criticism of govt strategy and/or dodgy ‘science’ can simply be ignored.

      It’s disgraceful behaviour.

    274. Colin Alexander says:

      We cannot turn back the clock. The indy movement / SNP have gone with the line that Holyrood represents the democratic will of the people of Scotland. So be it.

      So, trying to be positive, I see the Martin Keatings / Forward As One case as making the best of a very bad situation.

      I recognise Alex Salmond, the SNP and indy movement have previously deserved a lot of credit for talking up Scotland and Scottish independence.

      But, my main point is: SNP gradualism / subservience, fully backed by almost all of the wider indy movement has been a disaster for Scotland.

    275. John Digsby says:

      @Breeks

      We’ll have to agree to disagree. You can shout as much as you like about sovereignty and all that, but this is a contentious legal area, marked by ongoing debate on all sides. You present it here in a simplistic, “this is obvious” fashion, but there isn’t a definitive view on it that is actionable in law today.

      You ignored much of the restvof what I wrote, but I am not arguing that the Scottish people aren’t sovereign. But a sovereign expression of a desire to quit the Union cannot arise from some disputed and convenient interpretation of a document. First we must reach a position where that will can be expressed (and no, this doesn’t mean section 30) – after than, the technicalities of untying the treaty can be considered.

      My objection is to folk here claiming that we can use the treaty to somehow bypass all the ongoing nonsense and prevarication. It can’t.

    276. John Digsby says:

      @Colin Alexander at 1pm

      This reflects my view entirely.

    277. David Sharpe says:

      We can chat here or anywhere else till doomesday, the only viable solution is either to get rid of the crooks running the SNP, or start a new independence party without them and let them die a natural death, and disappear into the oblivion waiting for them.
      This cannot go on any longer, its gone beyond farce, scotland is fast becoming a police state where our rights are being eroded by the day by, and they are getting away with it because society has developed a sheep mentality and that works to their advantage.
      Long live democracy and freedom, down with big government and give the power back to us, The People !

    278. David Sharpe says:

      Get rid of the crooks or start a new independence party that contains people like alex salmond, all the yapping in the world will not change one little thing.
      Action is what we need, not blethering to each other about the same old stuff, time will fix the crooks for good, but time is against us, they will get back into power if we allow them to run the SNP as their own private political party
      Time to get rid of them one way or the other, peacefully of course

    279. Lex mclean says:

      I think you’re being a little unfair. Getting rid of a political rival can take time. Not everyone has ready access to novichok.

    280. Robert Hughes says:

      Ian B @ 12.51 . Totally agree . It has – quickly – got to the point where ANY questioning of the Sars Cov2 governmental response is dismissed as being ” Anti-Vaxx/Conspiracy Theorising ” , this can’t be healthy .

      Also agree about NS , her maximising the fear quotient is completely unnecessary and damaging-though she’s hardly alone in this- and consistent with her unimaginative collusion with every ” accepted “- ie politically expedient , perception of reality

    281. TruthForDummies says:

      Post on BarrheadBoy sums up how completely useless NS has been. Is she just stupid and the worst strategist it the world or is she following orders. It’s one or the other

      https://www.barrheadboy.com/a-guest-post-by-denise-findlay/

    282. Alec Lomax says:

      David Sharpe – go ahead and start a new independence party.
      What’s stopping you?
      Best of luck with that.

    283. Bob Mack says:

      If the Treaty and Acts of Union were irrelevant and

      unchangeable you should then ask yourself first and foremost

      why they are trying to bring in a new one to supercede it in

      Westminster right now. Simple enough answer.

    284. PeterV says:

      Nicola Sturgeon gets harder to look at by the day

    285. Meg merrilees says:

      Breeks @ 9.46

      At Last! someone else who believes that Scotland would not be seceding if we gain Independence.

      I have argued this many times on this website and heartily agree with your explanation.

      The Kingdoms of Scotland and England were equals and both signed a voluntary agreement to form one united Kingdom.

      When that Treaty breaks then there will be two equal Kingdoms of Scotland and England once more. The UK will no longer exist but Britain will. There will be no ‘Remainder of the UK’ as Wales and Northern Ireland are constituent part of the Kingdom of England.

      When two consenting adults who have voluntarily married each other there is no ‘remainder of the partnership’ upon divorce – both parties regain their independence and their freedom.
      John Digsby:

      Do not talk of secession as it does not apply – and referring to a previous post you made, the Treaty of Union is an International Treaty, the fact that it is more than 300 years old does not lessen its power nor its legality.

    286. Davie Oga says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      18 January, 2021 at 12:51 pm
      Plenty of us here have had our differences over the pandemic. And that’s allowed, right?

      “I hope we can at least agree that scaremongering really isn’t required – folk are scared enough as it is.

      So why does the FM, in response to a question about vaccine take-up by care home staff, use the expression ‘anti-vaxx forces’ in her answer? (She just did it there, at 12.44)”

      I’m not anti vaxx in the slightest. I’ve lived in countries where there are limited
      vaccination programs. My wife’s sister had polio as a child and the effects are still there 40 years later.

      Neither my wife or I will take the vaccines. They are experimental. The regulatory approval contravenes decades of received wisdom regarding trials and testing.

      For example. There have been zero studies on the effect of the vaccines on fertility. Zero studies on any effect over a couple of months. Madness.

    287. James Che. says:

      There are many people on here that are fighting hard and looking for ways to achieve Scottish independence, and judging by the last surnames of a good number of these people, they come from other countries, I have to presume that they moved here at some point or some generation,
      Most over the years have stayed loyal and faithful to the cause of an independent Scotland,
      This has very little to do with them speaking dialects from around Scotland or speaking Gaelic, it is a believe, believe that Scotland has the right to be independent and not under control of another country, it is born of a believe not to be subservient to another, or suppressed, that is the fight of nations all over the world, and they have chosen to join our fight and support us here in Scotland
      These people metaphorically fight shoulder to shoulder with you, and any one of us that try’s to make this an issue of you weren’t born here so, by definition are not with us , you don’t speak like us, your foreign, has got to have their head examined,
      I have not got enough hands and feet to count the amount of Scots born here, whom have betrayed their fellow Scot, how about those in the snp for a start, people whose names go way back into Scottish history, are right now avoiding helping their fellow Scot break the chains,
      Make your mind up to keep The old ones whom would gladly exchange your freedom for some silver and fame compared to your new compatriots.

    288. Lorna Campbell says:

      James Che: those treaties fell into desuetude because their circumstances changed so drastically that they wee no longer viable. The UK of GB still exists as it was formed according to the Treaty. The Treaty is still extant. Cameron? HoL? Of course it could become a long-drawn out affair to use it, but use we will have to when we negotiate our withdrawal or how on Earth do you plan to wrest what are Scottish resources, land, sea, assets from Westminster. International law and the Treaty must come into play. There is no way round that. None.

      As for achieving independence, yes, a plebiscitary election is perfectly feasible, and only if Westminster refuses to negotiate, should we use the Treaty. A request to extradite matters in the interest of Brexit and our holding nuclear weapons on our soil would be honoured, believe me. No one wants to see Scotland and England descend into open conflict. Please stop thinking abut what we might not be able to do and start thinking about what we might be able to do if we try.

      Vlad: we cannot get round the Treaty. It will come into play in the negotiations if we ever get that far. There is no way round it because it still underpins the UK of GB. Our sovereignty is only actionable insofar as we can use it. Trying to use it without any back-up will allow Westminster to stamp all over it. Saying something without having any evidence is pointless. We ceded a great deal of our sovereignty to Westminster, in any case. All of it? Or just some of it? As soon as we are independent, whatever we ceded returns to us as the sovereign Scottish people. But, and here’s the rub, we need independence first. A plebiscitary election, if the FM has the cojones to call one, and which is in her power NOW to do, is probably all that is now left to us to kickstart the process, then use the Treaty after that if there are difficulties with Westminster in recognizing our independence and negotiating with us. Another referendum is a dead parrot.

    289. Meg merrilees says:

      John Digsby @1.16

      Have you actually read the details of the Treaty of Union? You would realise that England has already breeched two articles of that Treaty. So it is arguable that the Treaty is now broken and both parties are free to walk away.

      1: Article 6 – regarding the different conditions now applying to ports in Northern Ireland directly against the article stating that all ports within the UK will operate under the same regulation (my words) – a condition that will be further exaggerated when W/Minster votes for free ports within the UK. This is the reason why David Mundell and Ruth Davidson stated they would resign if there was a ‘border’ in the Irish sea as it would breech the Union.

      2: Article 18 – by removing Scotland from the EU against our wishes they have disrupted the daily life for everyday Scots which again breeches the Treaty as the Parliament of Great Britain is able to legislate for certain aspects of trade across the UK but expressly NOT when it affects the private rights of people in Scotland.

    290. Breeks says:


      John Digsby says:
      18 January, 2021 at 1:16 pm

      … But a sovereign expression of a desire to quit the Union cannot arise from some disputed and convenient interpretation of a document.

      Then we must agree to differ, because there nothing to dispute. I cannot reconcile Scotland’s forced Brexit as anything but colonial subjugation, and thus Scotland’s Brexit is a material breach and violation of the Treaty of Union. That’s not conjecture, it’s fact.

      We thus have, or rather we had, our ticket out of this Union, with or without any democratic mandate, although it happened to be ‘with’, and with an emphatic 62% mandate at that.

      When it comes to sovereignty, democracy is overrated. Sovereignty is a legal distinction that is constant and permanent. Democracy is an ephemeral snapshot in time which decides a thing today that it might decide differently tomorrow.

      Fickle Democracy is the very poor and distant cousin of grim and humourless sovereignty. Unfortunately in this misguided 21st Century Scotland, democracy gets by far the better billing.

      Democracy gets the better the billing, but democracy which isn’t underpinned by sovereignty quickly runs into problems, such as when a colonial usurper of sovereignty strives to introduce conditions, obstructions and vetos upon that sovereignty, such as we see in the Section 30 of the Colonial Scotland Act.

      Suddenly your sovereignty isn’t ‘yours’ anymore. You have squandered your greatest strength, and your democracy is just an opinion poll which can simply be ignored, as in Catalonia.

    291. Stuart MacKay says:

      Colin Alexander

      I don’t see Martin Keatings court case as the best of bad situation. Rather it’s a significant step of wrestling the initiative for independence away from the rigor mortis that grips the SNP under Sturgeon.

      The outcome of the court case is almost a win-win situation for independence as if the motion is rejected I’d expect an attack on the Treaty itself to be mounted. I bet Martin has the scent of blood in his nostrils and it’s the next obvious target.

      How the SNP can’t see the long-term damage they are doing to themselves but either doing nothing or worse opposing what’s going on is beyond me. They make themselves more irrelevant by the second.

    292. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      For the people getting so hung about vaccines. I have one question or two.

      1. Did you get your kids vaccinated for MMR ,polio etc as a kid. Did your parent s get you vaccinated?

      2. What harms did it cause in you personally with getting one of above.

      ‘Anti-vaxxer’ is a shortened term for people against, that’s all.

      ‘I’m no taking the jab because it’s a world conspiracy to take away my basic rights and my liberty and injecting us wae a mind and genetic change enhancing DNA and tracking device’ doesn’t really flow off the tongue , does it?

      Going for a lie down now for an hour. Incoming

    293. James Che. says:

      Lorna Campbell, thanks for the reply and explanation, much appreciated,
      I can see from the comments on here, that a lot of people needed some clarity on this, that is why it is going to be important for us all to iron this out. It needs constant discussion, and I bow down to your own and breeks knowledge.
      I have always maintained that this will inevitably have to be the outcome, there can not be an absolute independent Scotland without this,
      Mentioning past treaties above I suppose was for the purpose that treaties are made with good faith at those times, but were broken for one reason or another making them invalid and mute, but nothing is forever, and I can recognise that the continued abuse of the 1707 treaty is/ has followed in the same vein,
      I like youself and others have this faith, that Scotland will become independent again, but god help us if the Scottish government do the negotiations on or behalf, it would be worse than the Brexit mess.

    294. Gfaetheblock says:

      David oga

      By your own words and beliefs, you are an anti vaxxer. Your actions will prolong this pandemic and endanger lives. Good luck to you and your wife trying for a family though.

      (And emergency use is appropriate in an emergency, the vaccines are safe and effective, more data will come out as we deploy further, adverse events post a month are vanishingly small and we have many clinical trials that have this data now, but if you want to get and spread a horrible virus, you be you)

    295. Davie Oga says:

      Gfaetheblock says:
      18 January, 2021 at 2:27 pm
      David Oga

      Thanks for the kind words re family.

      There are no studies on the effect of the vaccines over a period of six months, one year, 2 years etc. because they didn’t exist.

      I have already had the virus and I would bank on my immunity being stronger than anything provoked by vaccination.

      Why should I risk being injected with an experimental vaccine that is of no benefit to me or anyone else?

      I hope you have you a safe clinical trial.

    296. Breastplate says:

      Ian B,
      Agreed, it’s not helpful to label people who have legitimate concerns over vaccinations that have not been tested.
      I’m not sure how many different companies have made different vaccines now (I haven’t checked) but they were all in a race to be first. That they have appeared all around the same time, certainly makes me wonder how awesomely coincidental that is or did some companies cut corners to claim their kudos and stake in the market of the new Snake Oil bonanza.

      Vaccines that have varying degrees of success and also presumably differing side effects.
      Side effects that are known yet also side effects that are unknown.

      So yes, I’m an anti this vaxxer, but let’s not shorten the title as I am against untested Covid 19 vaccine. Who in their right mind, wouldn’t be?

      But let me clarify further still, I don’t want an untested vaccine (I think that is a perfectly reasonable standpoint) however, if others do wish to roll the dice on an untested vaccine then they should be allowed to fill their boots.

    297. Davie Oga says:

      Why would anyone believe what Sturgeon says about Covid anyway. She lies about everything else.

    298. paul says:

      An inkling of thinking from mark hirst:

      I think alarm bells started when “a source close to @JohnSwinney
      ” (I’ve been told it was Andrew Wilson) told a Scottish sunday newspaper “ultimately nationalists are going to have to reconcile themselves with something less than full independence.”
      Has that view gone? Doubt it.

      “something less than full independence” includes zero independence.

      The predictive abilities of that character wilson are something else.

    299. PeterV says:

      Nicola telling us the english army are on their way to save us.

      And as if to prove the point, BBC Scotland run with it on the lunchtime bulletin.

      They interview Major Humpty Dumpty from the the royal scots dragon gaurds (hope I spelled that correctly), and with the broadest of all englander accents, tells us he is going to save Scotland from this terrible english Covid Virus.

      If I see an english army sojur on Scottish soil then I won’t be long in telling him to get his stinkin arse off of Scottish soil, and take yer equally stinkin butchers Apron with you.

    300. Gfaetheblock says:

      Breastplate

      What vaccine hasn’t been tested? All that are in use have been through full phase 3 testing and signed off by a range of regulators from various jurisdictions.

      This is depressing

    301. Robert Hughes says:

      Lorna C – as per , thumbs-up ( virtual ) emoji

    302. James Che. says:

      Graetheblock, what’s with this wokery msm, naming shaming and blaming, diatribe, each to their own. Your body is personal and as far as I know still private and not owned by government.
      Speaking of the 1707 union treaty, Scotland under article xviii, private right must come into play if the treaty is to be true.

    303. Stuart MacKay says:

      Paul,

      Do you have a source for that from Mark Hirst?

      Independence

      The state or quality of being independent; freedom from dependence; exemption from reliance on, or control by, others; self-subsistence or maintenance; direction of one’s own affairs without interference.

      There’s no “full” or “less”. It’s black and white. You are or are not.

    304. Breastplate says:

      Ayrshire Rob,
      The term anti vaxxer is used pejoratively because you have no sound argument for injecting an untested substance into your body.
      You completely dismiss people who have had numerous vaccinations and are happy to have their kids vaccinated by tried and tested vaccines as anti vaxxers.

      The best argument you have is to trust the corporate pharmaceutical companies, that’s it, nothing more.

    305. Jack Murphy says:

      Thanks Robert Louis for starting your comment at 11:07pm yesterday:

      “The treaty of union is simply a written agreement between two parties (Scotland and England). Like ALL treaties, it may be annulled or ended by either party. The utterly absurd notion that somehow the treaty of union is magic, and means it can never, ever, ever be ended is hogwash, pure unionist thinking….”

      Well said, and the more people here in Scotland take that on board the better.

    306. holymacmoses says:

      Definition of independence Definitions.net
      https://www.definitions.net/definition/independence#:~:text=Wiktionary-,independence(Noun),means%20for%20a%20comfortable%20livelihood.

    307. PeterV says:

      Regards vaccines.

      The Pfizer vaccine is a two dose vaccine, with the second meant to be taken within 21 days.

      But for some strange reason, the UK, including Nicola Sturgeon, have decided to extend this second vaccine to be taken THREE MONTHS after the first jab gas been given.

      Pfizer said they have not tested for a three month gap between jabs.

      They are more or less disowning the UK and telling them they are on their own.

      Then add into the mix the english Virus, which nobody knows if any current vaccine will kill.

      And as for the two bob Oxford vaccine,
      Well that is as useful as an ashtray in a motorbike.

      Sturgeon is becoming less and less convincing with her Covid Sermons on the Mount.

      I wonder if other things are playing on her mind?

    308. Achnababan says:

      A thocht for the day… has our nicola made a secret agreement with Boris to hold of the indy ref till 2026?

      This would explain a’ thing!!

    309. Hatuey says:

      Breastplate, I have a challenge for you. This ought to be easy for you though. So here goes. No googling.

      Q) you and many others have repeatedly claimed that the vaccine is “untested”. Can you tell us, specifically, what parts of the normal testing regime have not been adhered to with say the AstraZeneca vaccine?

      Please give all due respect and attention to the word specifically. And just to inspire you further, I’m publicly calling you out as another crank who doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about.

      I await your prompt and detailed response.

    310. Gfaetheblock says:

      David oga

      Of course their are no two year studies, the virus is not 2 years old, would you suggest that we have lockdown or mass death until we do a two study? Why do we need a two study? What reference do you have for these being needed?

      So, your qualifier for being anti vax is you have the virus, so good for you but that is not a position most of us are in thankfully.

      I will be first online when I get my shot, because i know that it has been through clinical trials that have been concluded that the vaccines are safe and effective and I have done everything I could do to not get or spread it to date and will continue to do so.

    311. Gfaetheblock says:

      James che

      I believe in science and data led decision making. When people are lying and putting conspiracy theory bullshit out, they need called out. People health is at stake here.

    312. Colin Alexander says:

      Stuart MacKay

      If you view the SNP as colonial administrators with self-interest for various reasons such as personal ambition and other agendas separate from independence such as transgender rights, then the actions of the SNP do make sense.

      If the SNP achieved independence, the reason for the SNP is gone.
      If it became clear the SNP cannot achieve independence, again it’s support and so it’s grip on power might evaporate.

      The SNP rely on pro-indy votes for colonial power, so for as long as they can maintain a pretence that some day they will deliver independence, they effectively have jobs for life and can work on their their own agendas.

    313. Xaracen says:

      Actually, it is the UK that is the child of a mother country, in fact two mother countries, Scotland and England, so describing Scotland regaining its independence as ‘secession’ gets the term exactly back-to-front, and thus is entirely typical of the ignorance of the unionists.

    314. Hatuey says:

      There’s a bunch of people in the water and many will drown unless we do something. We have these life-belts that definitely will save a lot of them; they’ve been very thoroughly tested and work in 95% of cases. We have the potential to save thousands of lives but nobody has tested the long term effects of the material used with regards to allergies and sensitive skin.

      Those questioning the safety of this vaccine are arguing that we should stand and watch thousands of people drown and die. They dress this up as a moral argument, but it’s the opposite – immoral and a measure of nothing more than their disregard for human life and stupidity.

      You’re entitled to your opinions. I’m a great believer in free speech. But that works both ways and I too have the right to free speech; in this case that equals the right to call you stupid cunts.

    315. Andy Ellis says:

      The anti-vaxxers and sceptics on here should be given exactly the same amount of credence we would give to the kind of roasters who would cross a bridge which has been condemned by a panel of structural engineers as unsafe, or fly in an aeroplane which had not been certified as safe to fly.

      Sadly, it seems the ascientific nutter fraternity are rapidly spamming BTL threads here to tub thump their woo woo beliefs. It behaves reasonable posters who believe in science and oppose faith based magical thinking to call them out for their unreason before they become as toxic to the BTL discussions here as Spameron Brodie of ill fame used to be before Rev Stu lost patience with his idiocy.

      These are the kind of people who would have refused to give their kids the MMR vaccine because they’d hear it caused autism. No amount of evidence or clarification will satisfy believers in such truthiness. They are functionally indistinguishable from Trumpists insisting the US elections were fraudulent. Covid anti-vaxxers are as bacteriologically dangerous as they are intellectually and politically challenged.

      As others have pointed out people are free to believe such woo woo if they like: they aren’t free however to endanger everyone else with impunity, any more than Typhoid Mary Mallon was in the 1900’s.

    316. PeterV says:

      “Pfizer said in a statement that there are “no data” to demonstrate that a single dose of its coronavirus vaccine will provide protection from infection after 21 days.”

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.axios.com/pfizer-single-dose-data-716702dd-324f-42b9-b88d-07df43ca198a.html

    317. Davie Oga says:

      Gfaetheblock

      I’m not anti vaxx. I’ve had all recommended throughout my life. My 2 year old daughter has had 4 lots of jags.

      I’m anti this vax.

      Given the amount of medicines recalled years later over safety issues and the well documented behaviour of the pharmaceutical industry in putting profit before well being, I have made a decision that it is not worth the risk take it.

      I only mentioned that I had the virus (spent a month in my room basically) because the discourse is changing to pressurise people into the vaccination. I don’t consider myself “lucky to have had it”. Wife and daughter had no real problems with it- she’s 10 years younger than me (sexy as fuck too, lol). I’m still nearly 2 stone underweight, have no taste, and tire very easily.

      The debate is being framed as black and white, good and evil. Blinky has already started with her “anti vaxxer” shite today. You do it yourself. You’re a good caring person because you are going to get the jag to protect yourself and stop the virus spreading. People who won’t will be branded as selfish evil etc.

      My plans for the next couple of years are to lay low, avoid groups, grow my own food, teach my daughter and ride my wife. Stay alive, keep healthy and watch it play out. Something not right about all of it.

      My body. My choice.

    318. Davie Oga says:

      Andy Ellis

      That’s a fair point. Plenty of places to debate vaccinations, very few places to talk independence in an open manner that Stu has provided here.

    319. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Davie Oga, Andy Ellis, Hatuey –

      Rev hasn’t written any leading posts about this stuff. Closest I’ve seen to an ‘editorial’ stance was btl – he’ll correct me if this is wrong but what I remember is that he’s all-for vaccination but has his reservations about the haste of this roll-out.

      Craig Murray has written of similar concerns.

      Are they raving ‘anti-vaxxer’ ‘stupid cunts’ too?

    320. Alf Baird says:

      Xaracen @ 3:29

      “Actually, it is the UK that is the child of a mother country, in fact two mother countries, Scotland and England”

      We might also think of the UK as a wayward child which has gotten rather too big for its boots. This aspect also occurred to me some time ago with the realisation that the UK is not the superior party here, the superior parties in the UK administrative arrangement are the kingdoms of Scotland and England.

      The UK Gov is merely an administrative entity established by and acting on behalf of the superior parties to the Treaty, which remain Scotland and England – neither nation was dissolved, both still exist, as we see in many aspects of national and international life.

      Westminster is merely a shared parliament used for the passing of legislation on behalf of the superior parties, Scotland and England. This UK administrative arrangement depends on a sharing of sovereignty by the signatory parties to the Treaty.

      And as with all Treaties they may lawfully be ended when they are no longer in the national interest of any of the signatory parties.

    321. Gfaetheblock says:

      David of

      disagreement aside, good luck with your recovery, I have gone through post viral fatigue before and this virus scares the bejeaus out of me

    322. 100%Yes says:

      If we need a new Independence taskforce then there is no need for the SNP, Wouldn’t it be a better idea for the Leader of Scotland to just simply writing to the PM outlining a request for a section 30 order to be granted by a certain date and if it isn’t grant sating that Scotland will remove itself from the treaty of Union.

    323. Boaby says:

      Re the vaccine comments, my brothers 86 year old mother in law who lives in england just had her 2nd Pfizer jab 3 weeks apart last wednesday. Despite her having diabetes and heart probs, everything ok so far. His 77 year old neighbours just had theirs on saturday. Think he has a date in march for his 2nd one. I have an open mind on it, but i dont know what the alternative is.

    324. Alf Baird says:

      Paul @ 2.50

      “something less than full independence”

      A common feature in postcolonial literature, I think this is what Frantz Fanon described as the dominant National Party bourgeois pampered elite seeking to make its own “accommodation with colonialism”.

      What we might also call ‘independence as defined by the private school sector’, i.e. in the interest of Scotland’s privileged meritocratic elite, those of the same culture who made money out of slavery and who sold out the Scottish nation in 1707 (Ross 2008).

    325. Breastplate says:

      Hatuey,
      I’m completely in the dark with what tests have been completed and which haven’t but I’m absolutely positive that there is no data on long term effects. How could there be?

      As I’ve said before, I’m quite happy for people to roll the dice on their chances of having no ill effects.
      What separates us is our faith in the pharmaceutical industry. Allow me my cynicism as much as you allow yourself to have faith in them.

    326. paul says:

      Stuart MacKay says:
      18 January, 2021 at 3:01 pm

      Paul,

      Do you have a source for that from Mark Hirst?

      https://twitter.com/Documark/status/1350919763581685765

    327. Liz g says:

      Some great posts about the 1706/7 Treaty of Union.
      FWIW here’s my tuppence worth…

      The importance of the Treaty cannot be underestimated.
      It IMHO has always been the argument we should have been having.
      The Treaty is the foundation document of the UK Parliament sitting in Westminster.
      Therefore there’s a fair few unanswered questions beyond “how” it ends.
      E.G…
      Which of the two countries involved is indeed the *Contunuer* state ?
      TheTreaty is silent on this, therefore the claim that it’s going to be England is just a claim and a theory being pushed.
      Scotland has never conceded that England is the Continuing state …. Surely that’s a matter for negotiations.
      As is many of the presumed Union assets that England seem to be claiming .
      One glaring example being the Union Flag/ Jack ( I know , but it makes exactly the point I’m trying to demonstrate ) which is …. why is it assumed it’s Englands to use ?
      It’s an internationally recognised brand and ( for a wee while at least ) there will still be a Union of Crowns, so why are we to give it up ?
      Should it not be on the table too?
      After all they’ve stuck it on all our stuff anyway!
      Follow that logic to all the Treaties , Territory and International Trade Agreements then it has to be asked..
      If Scotland is ending the Treaty that allows the U.K. Parliament to exist what ever is left is not a U.K. Parliament there are no other Kigdoms on these islands . Therefore Englands Parliament is the body negotiating with Scotland , why is it assumed that Englands has certain assets and rights as a given?…

      What the Treaty is not silent on is that Scottish Law is equal to English Law and again we must not allow the distraction of a Supreme Court to lead us to thinking its ruling on British Law .
      That Court can only rule under the equality of Scottish and English Law as the Treaty demands and unless the Treaty is changed the Supreme Court can do nothing else.
      That Parliamentary Sovereignty they all bang on about is a Theory and only a Theory.
      The Westminster Parliament is bound by the Treaty of Union it does not and can not sit above its foundation document.
      That’s why they always speak of new ACTs of Union and never a New Treaty when they mention a new Union.

      We “the Yes movement ” are no looking for new laws/ acts were looking for Treaty change and that’s the one thing that never comes out of the mouths of federalist advocates.
      To change the Treaty would open it up to scrutiny and negotiations and that’s what they don’t ever want to do.
      To write a new Treaty and offer it to the people’s of Scotland and England to sign up to is never proposed.
      And when ( if we ever get one ) a third question on the ballot is proposed ….we should NOT ask them to define how federalism will work , but rather ask if they are actually proposing a new Treaty between the two Kingdoms ?
      That will shut down the federalist nonsense in one sentence.
      They are not and they can not alter that Treaty and risk Scotland ( or the English voter for that matter ) refusing to sign back up.

      While I’ve rambled on long enough 🙂 ….one last thing …
      The – Forever – part of the Treaty actually means for the life of the Doccument and not till the end of time itself as some claim..
      A ridiculous notion as it is not now nor ever has been a “Gospel” allegedly handed down by a deity, yet some would like to have us believe that’s exactly what it is.
      Maybe we should think of it as a sentence ( no really a stretch there ) if someone is put in jail forever they are only kept there as long as they are alive and not for all time
      While it’s a live document the terms and conditions apply…. strike down the Treaty and Acts of the UK Parliament ( which technically won’t exist but that’s England Problem ) will no longer have the force of Law in Scotland !

    328. Stuart MacKay says:

      Colin Alexander

      Yup. I flip-flop between hope and reality with regards to the SNP’s objective/purpose. Lately, almost all the coin tosses have come down for reality: the party has lost the will and/or ability to deliver independence and might even be actively working against it.

      This is based purely on deeds not words, sadly.

    329. Breastplate says:

      Boaby,
      I wish them all the best and to answer your question, for them there probably isn’t a viable alternative.
      It seems logical that in weighing up risk factors, people should choose the option with the least amount of risk.

      The elderly are the group which are very much at risk form Covid and it would be reasonable to accept they could benefit from the vaccine.
      The same argument would be difficult to make with the younger generation.

      So when we have people btl demanding mandatory vaccinations for everyone, it is very hard to take them seriously.

    330. Alf Baird says:

      Liz g @ 5:09

      An excellent synopsis.

      As you rightly say, a treaty can never be cast in stone for eternity for the simple reason that its relevance and import is inevitably bound by time and circumstance.

      And whilst the age-old argument of ‘alliance-determinism’ assumes both effective international law and honorable alliance partners, “experts in international affairs would count these among the most naïve hypotheses imaginable” ( Hamilton and Herwig 2004).

    331. Davie Oga says:

      Gfaetheblock says:
      18 January, 2021 at 4:32 pm
      David of

      “disagreement aside, good luck with your recovery, I have gone through post viral fatigue before and this virus scares the bejeaus out of me”

      Cheers pal

    332. Xaracen says:

      Alf Baird @4:20pm

      Your expansion on my comment provides an excellent perspective. Thanks!

    333. Hatuey says:

      Ian Brotherhood, it might interest you to know that my moral compass isn’t calibrated to meet Rev Stu’s standards. Yours shouldn’t be either.

      You are responsible for the judgements and decisions you make in the world, not me, Rev Stu, or anyone else. I know for some a responsibility like that can induce what’s commonly called existential nausea, and I’m sorry if that’s uncomfortable for you.

      I’m entirely comfortable with everything I’ve said on the subject. Are you? It doesn’t seem like it.

      I’m happy for people not to take the vaccine, I’d be happier still not to discuss it, but when they start promoting ideas about vaccines that could literally result in deaths, I reserve the right to call them stupid cunts. Let me assure you, I’ll apply that standard universally.

    334. Ron Maclean says:

      The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties entered into force in 1980. It does not apply retrospectively and therefore does not apply directly to the Treaty of Union.

      It notes that the principles of free consent and of good faith and the pacta sunt servanda (agreements must be kept) rule are universally recognised.

      It says that disputes concerning treaties should be settled by peaceful means and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law. It refers to the Charter of the United Nations, self-determination of peoples, prohibition of the threat or use of force and affirms that the rules of customary international law will continue to govern questions not regulated by the provisions of the present Convention.

      The Vienna Convention has been in force for more than forty years, long enough to be used to exemplify customary international law in contentious cases like the Treaty of Union where international law does not provide specific guidance.

      Using the Convention as a guide to international best practice should not affect a country’s progress towards acceptance internationally after a declaration of independence.

      For example – Article 60 of the Convention; Termination or suspension of the operation of a treaty as a consequence of its breach

      ‘1. A material breach of a bilateral treaty by one of the parties entitles the other to invoke the breaches as a ground for terminating the treaty or suspending its operation in whole or in part.’

      Article 33 covers the settlement of disputes.

      The Convention describes procedures to be followed in the event of termination by a party to a treaty but they do not include referendums, s30s or any requirement for permission from the other party to the treaty.

      In 1960 the UN ratified the Decolonisation Resolution. Scotland was not classed as a colony because it was incorporated in Great Britain by the Act of Union 1707.(Baird 2020). The Decolonisation Resolution is more than sixty years old and should be revisited in the Scottish context. There’s plenty of evidence (Baird 2020).

      The Resolution says that ‘all peoples have an inalienable right to complete freedom, the exercise of their sovereignty and the integrity of their national territory.’ It goes on to say that ‘Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.’

      Resolution 74/113 adopted by United Nations General Assembly on 13 December 2019 includes;

      ‘Reaffirms once again that the existence of colonialism in any form or manifestation, including economic exploitation, is incompatible with the Charter of the United Nations, the Declaration of the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.’

      With proper leadership a way forward would have been agreed a long time ago.

    335. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ian B 4.14pm

      We know Stu tends to err on the side of caution, as we saw with Spameron. It took along time and a lot of provocation for him to finally be banned. Irrespective our personal views and differences on this issue, the point is (as Dave Oga noted above your post) that we as an audience will (again?) end up seeing BTL discussions and every thread being diverted into discussions about the merits or otherwise of vaccines.

      I’m not saying the issue is unimportant, or that it shouldn’t be discussed. The point surely is whether this is the place? It’s EXACTLY the same principle as Spameron Brodies diversion and wrecking tactics. I’d hoped we’d moved beyond it.

      If folk want to bloviate about their hot (generally ill informed and woo-woo) takes on virology, why don’t they post them in the O/T thread, or better yet take it somewhere else?

      As Dave Oga pointed out, we have few enough forums. Surely we can avoid this one now being swamped with vaccine denier agitprop instead of Spameron Brodie’s Google mining?

    336. Hatuey says:

      Andy, I didn’t find CameronB in the least bit annoying. I actually liked him. There was a complex and subtle humour in a lot of his comments.

      Generally nothing annoys me that gets said on here. BTL is mostly just daft people talking on the Internet (and yes, I include my own contributions)…

      And the anti-vaccination stuff doesn’t annoy me either, not really, not per se. If people are spouting anti-vaxx propaganda, though, I reserve the right to respond (unless I too get banned).

      I can’t distinguish right now between someone who encourages people not to take the vaccine and someone who promotes self-harm. Nearly all the science tells us that the vaccines are generally safe (accepting that none are ever entirely safe) and that they have the potential to save millions of lives.

      The so-called science that tells us the vaccines are unsafe hinges on this idea that they are untested. It isn’t true. They have been thoroughly tested.

      Many millions across the world have been vaccinated over the last two months… very, very few have suffered serious side effects. We can only guess how many thousands they have already saved.

      Their safety hasn’t been assessed over a prolonged period but there isn’t any universal testing condition that requires you need to wait say 5 or 10 years before a vaccine can be declared safe.

      Even if there was, we can’t afford to wait 5 or 10 years. People are drowning, as I said before, they’re drowning right now. Death will not wait 5 or 10 years. About 600 people per week in Scotland are dying right now because of coronavirus. I’d rather they didn’t, and I don’t care how old they are.

      The thought of this lockdown crap continuing for 5 years isn’t pleasant to me either. And the more people that decline the offer of a vaccine, the longer all this will last.

      Just a few weeks ago they were posting links to a guy called Yeadon who said London and other places hit hard in the first wave had achieved herd immunity and that the pandemic was basically over for them. How stupid…

      Their timing couldn’t haven’t been worse; two weeks later the second wave came along and started breaking records in London. This is an example of the sort of science that underpins their propaganda.

      We should be shouting and screaming for the vaccine and asking Sturgeon why we are behind the rest of the UK… instead we have this madness.

    337. James Che. says:

      The highly intelligent debates on here by everyone, re the treaty of the union, runs ever widening circles around the legal team of the snp and Scottish goverment,
      Many of you looking at the whole picture in a more thorough way that I could have ever imagined or hoped to imagine, I for one have learned a lot.

    338. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hatuey (11.13) –

      ‘About 600 people per week in Scotland are dying right now because of coronavirus.’

      That is just outrageous – where is your source?

      Here’s the latest data from National Records of Scotland.

      Please show us how you got 600 deaths per week from this.

      https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/statistics-and-data/statistics/statistics-by-theme/vital-events/general-publications/weekly-and-monthly-data-on-births-and-deaths/deaths-involving-coronavirus-covid-19-in-scotland

    339. Saffron Robe says:

      Ian, it is impossible to bring coherence to a mind comprised of discombobulated thoughts.

    340. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “AYRSHIRE NOB
      Brian doon The (I’ll talk about anything other than Sturgeon Bad) Toon.
      Liz g

      Go on,,,say just one bad thing about Sturgeon,,, just one.”

      George/Frank/whichever name/s you’re using today: take the hint. If you carry on creating these accounts just to harass one poster in particular, I’ll pass all your email and IP addresses to the police to see what they think of it.



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