On their fat behinds
By now Wings readers will likely have already seen today’s events in the House Of Commons, where Speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle completely lost his rag at Alba MPs (and Wings contributors) Kenny MacAskill and Neale Hanvey for protesting against the UK government’s refusal to respect Scotland’s mandate for an independence referendum.
‘Get them out’ demand Tory benches as Speaker Lindsay Hoyle orders ALBA MPs Neale Hanvey and Kenny MacAskill out of the chamber for heckling Boris Johnson. #pmqs pic.twitter.com/RiADdSwKZA
— Phantom Power (@PhantomPower14) July 13, 2022
Every one of the SNP’s MPs, meanwhile, sat meekly on their hands and didn’t squeak a single word of protest even as the Speaker flagrantly disregarded the House’s rules and subsequently improperly suspended the two Alba members for a week.
The Standing Orders of the House Of Commons with regard to “naming” MPs (the step that precedes their suspension) are very clear.
The Speaker may order Members from the House for the remainder of the day, OR in the case of more serious offences he may “name” them, which attracts more severe penalties. He may NOT, however, do both, as Hoyle did today. It’s either-or.
The reason for this is that in the event of being named, Members are entitled to object and trigger a vote of the House (not only the named Members can do this, any MP can). But if they’ve already been ordered out, as happened today, they’re deprived of their right to contest the matter.
All of the SNP’s MPs know (or certainly should know) this, but not one of them rose to defend the proper procedures of the House, let alone their former colleagues. Instead they sat silently and looked the other way, some of them visibly smirking.
It was in fact left to the Tory chief whip to do Hoyle’s job for him 45 minutes later (after the Speaker had misnamed MacAskill “Kenny Maskell”). Only one of the dozens of SNP MPs present (Angus MacNeil) then said “No” to the suspension.
A starker, more dismaying illustration of the state of the supposed party of Scottish independence, whose representatives are now very comfortably and cosily ensconced on Westminster’s well-padded benches, would have been hard to contrive.
Someone should raise a Point of Order.
Thanks Stu for the fine detail on this outrage. It is now even worse than I had thought. Shame on all the settled in SNP careerists for not calling a point of order on Lyndsay Hoyle.
Westminster is not a parliament its a boys club with dubious rules for the in party to play how they want.
Time well past for Scottish Independence MPs to leave.
I thought cherry and MacNeil were “good guys” – obviously not good enough, shame on each and every one of the SNP members.
Angus Macneil did raise some kind of protest.
Would now be an opportune time to invite all to hear Alex Salmond speak, tomorrow, 7pm The Royal George Hotel, George St, Perth – entry is free.;)
Incidentally, been out doing leaflets for same in Perth, very good response, and 2 former No voters, very firm Yes now.
Should the SNP politicians decide to continue sitting on their hands, they will be left beind, by the public. The ground has shifted.
PS Dundee Annie is brilliant. Big thank you to her, Denise and Jackie for the helping hand.
How come one of the Speakers lackies did not inform him of his error, before they kicked out.
And Spouse
Would that be the SNP MPs?
I think Angus McNeil said ‘No’ there was one ‘No’when the Speaker named them (I think)
Think it is pretty clear most SNP MP’s have “settled in” to Westminster, so even if by some miracle they did manage to get another indy ref and then go on to win it they would be more concerned about the impact on rUK than getting the best deal for Scotland in any negotiations that were to follow
Shame the manny didn’t use that kind of energy and insist the Prime Minister answered questions.
Never seen that pillock so animated.
No surprises about the collaborationist SNP members’ behaviour.
You could not get a clearer example of the futility of their presence in the Westminster cesspit, nor of the fact that they are now quite clearly, and proudly, active agents of the evil British State.
We really have been stitched up by this careerists collaborationist scum.
I’d like to think that some in the SNP like Cherry and MacNeil will be raising this and calling for Hoyle to be subject to some sanction for the flagrant abuse of his position?
The SNP – or at least the few of them left with any principles – could soon bring the business of the House to a stop if they chose to do so.
But, but, but wasn’t the Speaker’s understudy there to keep Hoyle right?
Don’t tell me Mr Wishart was asleep at wheel and missed his moment in the spotlight.
He’ll be so disappointed if he’s passed over for promotion AGAIN. I mean he’s so settled in he’s part of the furniture down there.
On a more relevant note that Wishart,… just imagine the headlines and where we’d be tonight if Joanna Cherry, Angus MacNeil, Dr Philippa Whitford and a few other SNP foot soldiers had got to their feet and walked out…
Nae surprise. Wet Pishfart’s subsequent Tweet.
“It was pretty embarrassing and looked awful. What the SNP are doing is delivering a process that will deliver our independence. I think even the most hardline Albists recognise that.”
Aye right, cosy feet Pete’s been “delivering” for 21 fucking years. Delivering for his superannuated pension and fuck all else.
Oh, too bad. What should be more concerning is that the government of the UK is presuming to give directions to the Supreme Court. It is also of concern that there is a Supreme Court in the UK that seemingly can make decisions outwith the Scottish legal system.
The terms of the Act of Union have been chipped away and this has been accepted.
Instead of acquiescence to the breeches of, diminution of, the terms of the Act of Union these changes should have been grounds for secession?
In any event is exerting such influence not embracery?
Hoyle needs sacked for that. Disgraceful behavior not becoming of any MP in hoose of shitstir.
I see he had a teachers pet standing next to him – it wis him it was him. She even said at one point MacAskill had gone before he did that order shit. Wee teachers pet said Hanvey is hear , Hanvey is hear, wee clipe.
Bring back wee Bercow- least he wis fairer.
Things must surely be obvious now to even the most devoted disciples of L Ron Sturgeon. Her rancid cesspit of a party are not fit for purpose.
The Irish party to a T pre 1916. Don’t expect anything from the vast majority of the SNP MPs. If they were going to rebel, they’d have done so already. Their own welfare/promotion takes precedence, and, I’m sorry to say, even for the ones who occasionally show some backbone.
Geezo . Jist seen that Blackford on the news there trying to get up and walk oot fur a pish, could hardly move the man. His belly gets bigger every day. Too much grub and port he’s consuming oan oor bucks.
Forgot tae add that his carer next tae him is nae much better. Thon Oswald is a fair lump o a she/her/he/him tae.
Congratulations to two men standing up for Scotland in Europes most corrupt parliament with
a pathological narcissist and sexual predator as a criminal Prime Minister.
Yet again Westminster rules do not apply to Scots.
The creep Hoyle hasn’t even bothered to learn the names of Scottish MPs they are so insignificant to his deluded English cabal.
Sitting Normally Pays- SNP.
OMG I thought that speaker is going to have a stroke!
link to tinyurl.com
It maybe he is having a stroke. If you go to the end of the above video (about a minute from the end) you will hear him slurring his speech and mispronouncing words.
He says Kenny Maskill.
The speaker’s unbelievable outburst of anger is attracting a lot of comment.
It’s like the trump cult all over. All scared to show disloyalty to the hive queen, lest she show her wrath. We must not rely on SNP to deliver. Good on Angus though!
Did Wishart not want to be speaker?
I bet he would have been even angrier than the creep Hoyle at these Alba upstarts!
Proof if any more is necessary that the SNP has morphed into corrupt turncoats who would betray their country for the prawn sandwiches
History will kot be kind to those SNP members who put self gain before country.
Thats just how sturgeon wants it.
SNP are the COLABIRATORS
Lothianlad,
Betrayed their country for prawn sandwiches. How true.
Not only did the SNP not stand up for Scotland, they are now saying it’s embarrassing to do so.
The whole fucking house was worse than a chimpanzees tea party and their calling Alba MPs embarrassing.
When will the intellectually challenged on Paul Kavanagh’s carnival of whimsy see the fucking ring in their noses?
We’re not going to get anywhere by excepting the status quo, the SNP should walk out as well.
Is this our time to go to Bute house and demand an early Holyrood election so the people can have their say on the constitutional question, this is within the FM and her government competence.
I suppose the SNP are too high-faluting to drink tap water these days. Only the finest vichy water for them.
From a Unionist……the SNP MPs at Westminster do not want independence, as they would immediately be out of a job. They all know they would struggle to get half their current salary in the real world. It snouts in troughs. If you are serious about Independence you need to destroy the SNP or at least the Murrell dynasty.
I think the animals in Westminster has only show us how good the EU really is.
This puts into context how easy it would be to end a mankit union treaty – simply for most of Scotland’s national representatives to get chucked oot thon mankit pairlament – an no come back.
@ David Beveridge at 5:57 pm
L Ron Sturgeon. ,,Hubbard had this thing about keeping follower’s grubby secrets for his own purposes
The SNP is now in that same compromised position that Labour finds itself in in relation to its grassroots. Every now and then somebody or something crops up that reminds them of their treachery, reminds them of the cause they’re supposed to be fighting for, and the ordinary people they have sold down the river — and how do they respond? You seen it today.
Anyone that thinks they’re going to use a General Election as a plebiscite on independence isn’t paying attention. I’ve never seen Scottish MPs that looked so comfortable sitting in the the House of Commons.
SNP politicians are the new imperial masters. Call the guy with the rickshaw, we have a new gig for him.
They have become the very thing they used to despise. Sadly Scotland has always been sold down the river to improve the lifestyles of leaders. History repeats yet again.
Well done to Kenny and Neale for standing up for Scotland. Small actions can have powerful effects and they showed how our constitutional rights strike a raw nerve with the British establishment. As for the SNP MPs, a bunch of snivelling cowards quite at home in the cesspit of Westminster.
Pete Wishart smirking.
Chicks don’t want the keyboard player in the band.
Even Nicola thought she was too cool to attend his 21 year banquet.
MacAskill has done well today. Things to love to see. Hoyle can stick his gothic cesspit up his arse.
Let’s bring their house of cards down on a weekly basis as much as possible. On yourselves lads.
At least Scotland now knows exactly where the Scottish National Party stands. Alf Baird, however, has already made it clear that this type of behaviour is to be expected. The next chapter, though, will be extremely interesting. Independence is just around the corner.
Thought it was very noticeable that they all (up to and including the media) avoided saying that it was MPs from the Alba Party who protested.
They seem scared to say the name.
Scottish MPs they said but I never once heard Alba
Remember the SNP line for the 2015 General election when Sturgeon claimed they would ” shake things up” at Westminster.
Compare and contrast with their performance today folks.
There you have the sad truth when they allow fellow Indy supporters to be removed from the chamber without protest. Indeed Wishart feels it was justified.
I know sturgeon is under the complete control if the british secert service, but what do they have on ALL the mps, msps councillors and paid staffers?
Is it fear, greed, cowardice, self gain??
Why have they morphed into unionists? Is there noone left like Neil and Kenny?
Many SNP members will be moving to ALBA, the SNP are now the house jocks and there to pretend to want independence. The people will have watched the SNP do nothing and be disgusted. Delighted to see you back REV. How’s the time and how’s the hour, ALBA need to keep this up, if they do they will be recognised as t(e true Independence Party .
My goodness. The SNP really have become the nothing party. The sit on your hands and whine party. The doff your cap to London party. The ask permission party.
Today confirmed it for all to see. With the exception of Angus Macneil, not one of them stood up to support Scotland’s democratic rights and the Scottish claim of right enshrined in scots law, and the Scottish consitution.
Instead, I see the likes of John Nicolson actually mocking Neil and Kenny, two genuinely HONOURABLE Scots who today actually stood up to Westminster dictatorship over Scotland and our democratic rights.
If only we would all just sit down and wait for London to see sense, eh John? I mean we wouldn’t want to cause a fuss, whilst Scotland’s entire democratic rights are literally trampled on by a bunch of fat English Tory pr*cks.
Wake up SNP members. Your party has no fight in it. It will not stand up for Scotland.
I want to thank the Alba party for what they did today. The lack of outrage from the SNP at how London is on a near daily basis shafting Scotland and denying basic human democratic rights, is shocking.
We can see them all, the SNP FEEBLE 44. Politely doffing their caps, nodding and laughing along to Scotland-haters in the cesspit called the house of commons. Doing nothing, but living it up in Old London town. For London’s gold, and all that.
I have no doubt that Kenny and Neale’s constituencies are targets #1 and #2 for the SNP in any forthcoming general election.
Due to the lack of MSM coverage, it is up to the pro-indy grassroots in these constituencies to spread the word that if independence is to be achieved, then the current MPs must be re-elected. That has to start ASAP.
The lack of embarrassment displayed by the SNP MPs today was an embarrassment. What is their priority – independence for Scotland, or compliance with Westminster’s varying rules?
A message to the SNP from a man that’s long dead,
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
SNP have just lost more members after that weaseling
Keep it up Neal and Kenny, we need you to do it again and again. Make every PMQ,s disrupt ion filled. Please don’t stand up at the same time you must spread it out to make them go through the process for each member.
The SNP should be disrupting every PMQ,S but they have become British it’s very sad to see.
Sir Lin-say, Hailing from the inbred capital of Europe, when we were in it, the armpit twilight zone of the UK that makes Royston Vassey look normal. Too harsh I hear you say, maybe so – flashbacks to another time.
p.s. Knighted for what? Not this performance.
I don’t know if I am just being dense in my failure to find out myself but does anyone have a list of which SNP MPs were present at PMQs today?
I would hate to write to my own just to find out they weren’t there.
“I don’t know if I am just being dense in my failure to find out myself but does anyone have a list of which SNP MPs were present at PMQs today?
I would hate to write to my own just to find out they weren’t there.”
It may be in Hansard.
Angus MacNeil, I am VERY reliably informed, was going to defect to Alba at the same time as Hanvey and MacAskill, but shat his pants at the 11th hour.
Points of order in advance of PM questions should have been mandatory simply because the PM who turned up to answer them appeared to resign in disgrace as recently as last week.
If speaker not willing to apologise yet, maybe the threat of a defamation action in a Scottish court could persuade him – especially if the obligations upon the chair (precision, integrity, impartiality, etc) prohibit a protected speech defence of the sort that might normally be available to MPs.
The SNP have left the battlefield, they have become part of the problem the Quisling vichy colonial administration of Scotland will not get my vote again.
@Vivian O’Blivion 13 July, 2022 at 5:32 pm
Was Pete not there when the SNP walked out in 2018?
How embarrassing it must’ve been for those nice, middle-class drudges to be shown-up by two of their rowdy countrymen, particularly so in a room full of politely spoken English people! Such a loss-of face for them; they’ll never be able to live-it-down in the subsidised bars, restaurants or tea rooms.
There’s no such a thing as bad publicity. Well done, the Alba disruptors, if only for showing-up the unbridled arrogance of the likes of Hoyle.
Alf Baird says:
13 July, 2022 at 8:24 pm
This puts into context how easy it would be to end a mankit union treaty – simply for most of Scotland’s national representatives to get chucked oot thon mankit pairlament – an no come back.
Spot on Alf. I was thinking the exact same thing. If the SNP had anything resembling a spine, today could have been “the day”.
The day Scotland’s MP’s cited an undemocratic outrage as the reason to walk away from the Racket of Union.
The day Scotland took it’s first steps as a free Nation in 315 years.
It was that easy. It remains that easy. But we elected sheep when we thought we were electing lions.
Hmmmmm….
link to twitter.com
Not just Twitter.
The events in Westminster slipping off the front pages very quickly everywhere….
You cannot hope to bribe or twist,
thank God! the British journalist.
But, seeing what the man will do
unbribed, there’s no occasion to.
Under the new campaign code of conduct, saying someone in the SNP “shat their pants” is a violation of Rule 3,008, section 89 and Schedule 28CC, sub-clause 11 (a). If the violator agrees to undertake a six-month course of re-education at a location at least fifty miles distant from the “shatee” heretofore aforementioned, a period of probation will be unilaterally agreed between the party and the probationer, after which the party will make a final decision at a time of the party’s choosing on the potential renewal of individual campaigning rights (subject to a binding ratifying vote during lunchtime at a future party conference).
No surprise on both fronts.
Hoyle detests the Scots/SNP. He made that crystal clear even back when he was Deputy dug to Bercow.
He’s a boring arrogant barsteward too & a closet Tory.
He should’ve admonished the feckwits shouting for them to be removed but he lets that side of the chamber act like fecking hyenas.
SNP: Spineless barstewards. Nothing surprises me anymore. You state ‘they should know’ My money’s on that they don’t. Most of them are Sturgeons stutterers & in a role way above their paygrade.
It’s recorded now – it’s already true that over 50% of Scottish voters voted in favour of parties supporting a referendum on Scotland’s future in or outside of the UK. The will of the Scottish electorate is for another referendum.
All credit to Kenny and Neale – two extremely fine MPs. Westminster house rules were tinkered on the day just to name them. Their voices were raised for us and heard, their letter to the Prime Minister is now on record. Scottish Sovereignty has been asserted yet again in Westminster.
A good day’s work. Respecting ALBA.
Mark Boyle says:
10 July, 2022 at 10:57 am
Charles Hodgson says:
10 July, 2022 at 1:24 am
When the moment came, and they were seeking to implement vaccine passports – the issue of all our lifetime’s and the imposition of complete authoritarianism – you were nowhere to be found were you Wings?
Shove your trans-activism up your delicate arse, you cowardly fucking cunt.
Not as cowardly as some no mark posting under the nom de plume of some long dead Z-list actor …
That’s my real name you total cunt. DM me for a meet-up some time. You’ll be eating your future meals liquidated through a straw, Boylie.
DM me – LMAO
Gotta love a keyboard warrior, especially one so moronic he asks people to DM on a forum with no DM function.
He forgot to mention that he’s a former member of the internet SAS, wins at all the internet sports, goes on month long internet holidays to the Maldives where he impresses all the girls with his foot long internet schlong.
Hoyle behaving like a typical “ Britnat lagerlout” within the “ Westminster arms” . Such a pity a certain Mr Eric Joyce wasn’t still in residence.
And it is from this lack of alliance between SNP and Alba that will be Nicolas downfall. Not to mention i believe NS is a Westminster bought woman. As much as I want independence I don’t see this woman achieving it without scotlands electorate,s TRUST.
Breeks: “Spot on Alf. I was thinking the exact same thing. If the SNP had anything resembling a spine, today could have been “the day”.”
Remember when folk on here used to laugh at the Labour Party for endlessly sitting on their hands/abstaining instead of fighting back and quote the old saying “and a shiver ran round the chamber, looking for a Labour spine to run up”? Look what the SNP has become under Sturgeon and the Skye Windbag: utterly spineless and disgusting.
And what an out-of-control, shameful performance by the speaker. He behaved like a thowless supply teacher with a drink problem trying to control the bottom fourth year class on a hot Friday afternoon.
As David Hannah said above, it’s nothing but a gothic cesspit down there, a squalid sump in which the SNP seem quite happy to wallow for their short money while real fighters for independence are abused by a braying horde of spittle-flecked xenophobes.
Now having slept on it….
I think ALBA played a blinder yesterday.
They’ve shown the courage to face down the Establishment and challenge the status quo. It’s perhaps not very scientific, but trawling around Twitter and BTL comments, the actions of Kenny MacAskill and Neale Hanvey are being favourably received in good ratio.
Perhaps just as significantly, it’s difficult to “ease the squeeze” of fitting a cigarette paper between the opinions of Unionist critics and “usual” SNP curmudgeons. They were both outplayed by ALBA.
Clearly, the SNP thinks all those Westminster seats are just for sitting on. Take a step back however, see a broader perspective, and this is much more than a “stunt”.
By so brazenly challenging the House in this way, ALBA has cleverly positioned itself very well as a prominent voice in any future challenges to Westminster’s hegemony. If (or should that be when), the fight moves outside and beyond the realm of Westminster (and Westminster’s Scotland Act), ALBA have booked their ringside seats.
Not “the” leading voice perhaps, but “a” leading voice in any future Claim of Right / SALVO initiatives, and any Constitutional Grand Assembly drawing its authority from the red sovereignty of the people rather than the white sovereignty of Westminster.
I’m very happy with that positioning, because it feels just about right.
Full respects to Kenny MacAskill and Neale Hanvey, and all due credit and compliments on their initiative…
…but ssshh! Let me whisper,… the Jedi inside me is sensing the Salmond is strong in these two.
I don’t think the current crop of SNP in Westminster actually are intelligent enough to know the rules.
Reading that Wishart said, ‘delivering a process which will deliver a referendum’ is total ‘New’ Labour speak. Mamdy and the war criminal would be proud. Even patricia Hewitt said public services shouldn’t be talked about like pizzas!
«GET THEM OUT!»
@TC (9.09) –
Hear hear.
SNP taking a real pasting, on Twitter at any rate. Sir Lindsay released a self-serving Tweet that has been roundly rubbished by all respondents. (Many replies are from SNP members praising Alba.)
One of the SNP’s worst days in a long time. It’s fitting that it happened because they were doing what we’ve all become used to i.e. absolutely nothing. But they’ve taken ‘doing nothing’ too far this time and abody can see it.
Hell mend them. Twittery rumours saying that Alba’s membership now exceeds Scottish Labour. Wouldn’t be too difficult shonuff, but one step at a time. Next, the Tories.
😉
Well the non action of the SNP yesterday will surprise no one here. It’s been obvious for a long time now that the party under Sturgeon, does not want independence in any shape fashion or form. Yesterdays display just proved that. Yet the sheeple still follow on bleating about Westminster. In the name of goodness waken up.
Well done Kenny and Neale, doing what is needed. The disgrace of the rest of the SNP sitting there either silent, or worse still joining in the shiriking spoke volumes to folk who were watching on up here. Hoyle was apoplectic, I thought he was gonnae blaw a gasket. Foaming at the mouth and tripping over his words. Disgraceful behaviour from the speaker, he should be complained about for not following the rules.
If it wasn’t for MacAskill & Harvey, no mention would have been made of Scottish independence in parliament yesterday. No mention would have been made of the mandate for a referendum. And no mention would have been made of Scottish people in an oil rich country suffering fuel and food poverty.
We can go further. How many SNP supporters watched that and realised Sturgeon’s approach to all this is utterly useless? How many thousands quietly admired what they saw and are now planning on voting for Alba? Dare we suggest a few even renounced their SNP membership and joined Alba? I think so.
This is how politics is supposed to work. You argue for the things you believe in and in doing so inspire others. Do enough of that and you generate support, create momentum, and success is more or less guaranteed — guaranteed because you can’t lose when you fight for the things you truly believe in.
For the first time in years it feels like we have a dog in the race.
I think or SNP MPs should be collectively known as “The Hues Corporation”, given their unwillingness to rock the boat…
Said I’d like to know where, you got the notion
To rock the boat, don’t rock the boat baby, don’t tip the boat over
Rock the boat, don’t rock the boat baby
With a bow to Oliver Brown.
«A SHIVER RAN THROUGH THE SNP BENCHES LOOKING FOR A SPINE TO RUN UP»
The old put downs are the best.
Hatuey says: at 10:34 am
“How many SNP supporters watched that and realised Sturgeon’s approach to all this is utterly useless?”
It looks like at least two.
link to barrheadboy.com
Plainly Britannia simply cannot cope with those who wave her rules…
MORE PLEASE!
This must be how Jack felt when he woke up, rubbed his eyes, and looked out the window to see a huge beanstalk…
I always wondered what became of the cow.
😐
“but ssshh! Let me whisper,… the Jedi inside me is sensing the Salmond is strong in these two”.
Another fantastic quote from the breeks!
@ Ian Brotherhood at 10.15: the rumour I saw on TheIndyNinja twitter was that Alba membership has passed the Conservative Scottish membership. I can’t find on Google what that figure is but have a hazy memory that it was reported somewhere as around 8,000.
The Labour membership in Scotland per google was 16,467 in February 2021.
Barrhead boy’s latest post reports on personal stories of people leaving SNP yesterday. All very heartening.
@sarah (12.16) –
Alba seems pretty sharp at updating members via email so maybe we’ll get some solid figures soon.
😉
Thanks for the link Dan.
Very interesting read.
I have to own up and say I hadn’t given the Alba MPs much thought all my focus was on the SNP.
It was a brilliant surprise to see them taking action.
I’m guessing it might have been a surprise for many for some a very pleasant surprise for others a anger inducing shock!
How is the speaker? Has he had a stroke?
@ Ian B: hope so. This kind of thing is making everything look a lot more hopeful. The Salvo/SSRG initiative gives facts to help the new Yes activity and I’ve just seen on Sara Salyers’s twitter David Henry reporting an SNP group have booked a stall at the SSRG Conference. Now that is a very good sign indeed – the “leadership” will be beginning to worry. 🙂 🙂
In the event we end up with ‘Sturgeon’s de facto referendum’ do you think she could dictate that only a vote for the SNP counts as a YES vote?
Kenny MacAskill is a highly respected lawyer and upholds the high standards expected of that profession. To do what he did yesterday was, I suspect, completely foreign to his persona. A supreme act of selflessness for the cause.
Pure dead brilliant.
Lothianlad @9:26pm
The MPs inaction is learned helplessness created by endless micromanagement from on high. The end result is a group of people who are unable to think or act for themselves lest they be found wanting and be cast into the wilderness. I doubt they’d get off their seats if the House of Commons was burning down unless they got permission from the leadership. Exhibit A, ladies and gentlemen, the lawmakers who will deliver our independence.
On a more serious note, this indicates very much a top-down organisation. While that’s just the way the Dear Leader want it, it’s also likely to lead to the destruction of the SNP once she departs as it simply can no longer fend for itself.
Action speaks louder than words we need more of this, I joined Alba shortly it was formed I was so proud of Neale & Kenny yesterday
Yesterday Neale Hanvey and Kenny MacAskill raised the bar. For the first time for many years we saw Scottish MPs in action. They raised questions as well.
Q1 What’s the point of independence?
We don’t know. For the last eight years the most basic questions haven’t been addressed. Corruption, Currency, Economy, Energy, EU membership, Borders, Poverty and so on. That leaves –
Q2 What’s the point of Nicola Sturgeon?
Oneliner said this morning:
” Kenny MacAskill is a highly respected lawyer and upholds the high standards expected of that profession. To do what he did yesterday was, I suspect, completely foreign to his persona. A supreme act of selflessness for the cause.
Pure dead brilliant.”
Well said,I second that.
Worth repeating it.
Rev stu.
Very appropriate, connection to Orwell for the snp, the pigs at the trough.
Alf Baird,
Total agreement with you comment, the snp could have nailed it yesterday for Scotland, As it is high praise to Kenny and Neale with great respect and Angus Macneil..
Stuart macKay,
I respectfully disagree with you.
It is not learned helplessness by the snp, it is pure greed with power dictatorship they have learned,
“Scotland sold by another parcel o modern day rogues”
Scotspine,
I am sure your name is Scots pine, but when said the way its wrote its a Scot- spine, do you have any for the snp, or would you not bother 🙂
Breeks 9:40am
True. I was reminded of Salmond interrupting the budget statement.
You don’t interrupt a budget statement.
Oh really? Watch me. LOL
In a sea of rabble-rousers you got to find a way to be on record.
Like a Newspaper retraction, does the Speaker just mumble a quiet apology when no-one is there or does he have to make a loud declaration of apology to a full house given the audience and attention on yesterdays improper eviction?
Hopefully The Alband of Brothers demand a massive apology.
Mark Boyle couldn’t spot a joke if it crawled into his mouth and shat down his throat.
Probably a trans-species, and would really enjoy that though.
What did he type his braggadocio on I wonder? His blue-toothed cervical cancer spots?
The offices of the SNP are called the Scottish devolved government. And NS has access to bbc to spout her fake Scottish independence mantra just now where she is suggesting to the next new prime minister she would be willing to compromise,
That is not news, she has compromised Scotland since she came into her devolved sub station Englands government office in Scotland.
This devolved government needs to go, it actually compromising Scots Law and the Scottish constitution through the back door,
It bows down to a supreme English invented court, that is not agreeable to the terms of the treaty of the union..
The Scottish devolved government under NS,s SNP are ignoring the Sovereignty of the Scot as Does Westminster.
The Tory master is lying down in his devolved bed waiting for the snp mistress to climb in next to him on the other side.
I For one do not wish to have the SNP or NS negotiating Scotlands future with her bedfellow.
“this indicates very much a top-down organisation. While that’s just the way the Dear Leader want it, it’s also likely to lead to the destruction of the SNP once she departs as it simply can no longer fend for itself”.
A very accurate assessment Stuart
Jack Murphy says:
14 July, 2022 at 1:23 pm
” Kenny MacAskill is …..
Pure dead brilliant.”
Well said,I second that.
Worth repeating it.
Same here.
If memory serves, Kenny MacAskill was Justice Minister who took the decision to release Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, in the very teeth of bitter and scathing opposition from Westminster and the USA.
It was absolutely the correct thing to do, not just on grounds of human compassion, but the growing body of opinion that Megrahi was an innocent man. Scots Law and Justice Minister standing firm on principle with tremendous integrity in the eyes of the world, not least in the eyes of moderates in Middle East.
Pity help Megrahi if his fate had been left to the toadies in today’s NuSNP.
People scoff that an Indy Scotland could be a big player in International Relations, but with men the caliber of Kenny MacAskill, Scotland already has been.
The SNP are animal farm the movie! You can see MPs like Anne McLaughlin and Pete Wishart are more interested in £££ than independence in the clip itself. They absolutely detest Alba as they know Alba MPs will put them to shame. Unfortunately the SNP has been took over by the gravy train and Nicola is happy to play along as they are all quids in!
I genuinely believe Pete Wishart and Anne McLaughlin will want to be elevated to the House of Lords in the next 5 years.
See Nicola is now offering a compromise in return for Indyref2
Wonder what that will be:
We need to get at least 65 percent or higher of the electorate yes
Devo max on the ballot
Never another vote/thereafter incorporated union
She gets to stay queen for ever
Would like to send them all a white feather but I don’t have enough pillows
Shug.
Aye shug as I said above, she has done nothing except compromise Scotland since she came into office,
Today is Bastille Day, will Scots have to storm their very own Bastille, and remove our very own Marquis de Sade. Okay de Sade was moved from the Bastille the day before the storming in the French Revolution of 1789, but you get the point.
So the gazillionaire through marriage Rishi Sunak is the frontrunner to become the next Tory PM, Sunak drinks his tea out of £180 quid mug, and owns at least four homes, like the other OxBridge. Eton and Bullingdon boys/girls clubs for the ultra privileged who go on to enter government, Sunak is in touch with what the average person on the street needs and wants, as Howard Hughes was in his recluse stage.
I would think anyone still attached to the snp will by now know they will pretty much be associated in Scotland as “the shame on you party” …to be boo, d an hissed at. perhaps some may even shout SNP out, Snp out, when on their marches, like they used to shout about the Tories.
Fame can quickly turn into infamous, especially if you’re on the wrong side of Scottish history.
Republicofscotland.
Rushi Sunak is trying if not already to tie free perscriptions to retirement pension age.
Lovely man, taking from older people and those that are ill to cover the Nhs bills that they over spent on, by handing contracts to their friend,
He will sit as the possible new prime ministers feeling quite content at his desk sipping out of his £180 mug,
Knowing he has just fleeced the poor and vunerable mugs. To pay for his lifestyle.
As BJ did building a treehouse for the same price as most peoples homes.
NO signs of dissent for the troughing SNP MPs who sniggered and sat quietly as the real party for independence MPs (Alba) stood up for Scotland yesterday.
Word has come down from the betrayer that SNP MPs are not to act in solidarity with the REAL indy party’s (Alba’s) MP’s. Sturgeon the betrayer has called the Alba MPs standing up for Scotland in the HoC yesterday “gesture politics” what treacherous b*stard she turned out to be.
Her gutless and spineless MPs will obey she that must be obeyed and keep their mouths shut and their snouts in the trough, a vote for the SNP is a vote for the status quo.
Its was Madame Ecosse’s (Winnie Ewing) birthday a few days back, god only knows what she must be thinking when she looks at what the SNP has become under the tenure of the Sturgeon.
Ian Lawson has a fairly good description here on what Scotland has become whilst the betrayer is in charge.
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
A link would be nice for my 4.33pm comment.
link to 12ft.io
James Che.
I think the majority of the candidates are pushing tax cuts mainly for the rich, as this is likely to meet approval with the well to do Tory membership.
I must admit I’m pretty disinterested in this three-ringed media circus, for it doesn’t matter who resides at Number Ten Scotland will still be treated with disdain.
1971Thistle says:
14 July, 2022 at 10:35 am
I think or SNP MPs should be collectively known as “The Hues Corporation”, given their unwillingness to rock the boat…
Chapeau!
Repulicofscotland.
Scotland was treated with disdain ever since those that did not own Scotland or the Sovereign Scots set a for sale sign up on the Scottish border,
One day when people genuinely question the reality of that pseudo treaty, Scots and Scotland will become free once more.
And boy are the Scots owed compensation big time,
At this point in time I tend to agree with Alf Baird with regards colonialism from Westminster over Scotland and the Scots,
For only a master slave owner can tell a people of any nation that they have no choice on wether to be free from a/the master that says he has ownership and control of their freedom….
Well said James che @0221 pm . Her opening gambit is to indicate “ compromise “ . There is an old transatlantic ( I think) saying “ never give a sucker an even break “ . I am pretty sure the Britnat hierarchy will view this as a potential surrender before proceedings even commence .
Scotland has been “ compromised “ since 1707 .
The SNP have completely lost any credibility.
I never thought I’d see the day when I’d mutter “f***ing idiot” whenever I see an “SNP Stronger for Scotland” sticker on a car.
I could list a catalogue of other expletives to describe the SNP, but what’s the point…
Scotland is stuffed, and the SNP can get stuffed. Last one to leave be sure to turn off the lights.
The SNP continues to put party before country. Perhaps our only hope is that Sturgeon has painted herself into a corner with her promise of indyref2 next year and realizes for her to renege on that promise would mean the end of Sturgeon [in Scotland] and the end of the SNP. It could be that party self-interest [and not an actual interest in independence] will see Sturgeon and the SNP actually doing something radical on independence in order to ensure their own survival.
I know, I know, straws just grasped.
Charles Hodgson says:
14 July, 2022 at 7:18 am
Charles Hodgson says:
10 July, 2022 at 1:24 am
When the moment came, and they were seeking to implement vaccine passports – the issue of all our lifetime’s and the imposition of complete authoritarianism – you were nowhere to be found were you Wings? Shove your trans-activism up your delicate arse, you cowardly fucking cunt.
Mark Boyle says:
10 July, 2022 at 10:57 am
Not as cowardly as some no mark posting under the nom de plume of some long dead Z-list actor
That’s my real name you total cunt. DM me for a meet-up some time. You’ll be eating your future meals liquidated through a straw, Boylie.
Charles Hodgson says:
14 July, 2022 at 2:01 pm
Mark Boyle couldn’t spot a joke if it crawled into his mouth and shat down his throat. Probably a trans-species, and would really enjoy that though.
What did he type his braggadocio on I wonder? His blue-toothed cervical cancer spots?
Top bants, bro. Real edgelord, bro; ‘cos threatening people with violence – internet or otherwise – is always ‘just good clean fun’ and just a “joke” – even if the law says otherwise.
Not for the first time in this individual’s instance:
Charles Hodgson says:
11 September, 2021 at 4:17 pm
Andy Bell-End Ellis
I ain’t an “anonymous coward” or a “tin-foil hat wearer”, you c*nt. Any-time, any-where.
Charles Hodgson says:
11 September, 2021 at 4:31 pm
YOU are what is wrong with Scotland – nay, the world – right now, you puffed up f*cking fascist coward. I KNEW you’d chicken out. Offer remains open nonetheless, pansy. “Squawk!”
Charles Hodgson says:
11 September, 2021 at 4:34 pm
For avoidance of doubt – above again directed at Cockroach Ellis.
Charles Hodgson says:
23 September, 2021 at 9:19 pm
Would Andy Ellis come over so smug and smarmy with a mouth full of teeth?
So here we are, twelve days on from He Who Must Be Obeyed issuing the following proclamation:
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
2 July, 2022 at 11:16 am
MARKER
From this point in the thread, any more personal attacks will see the comments deleted and the attacker placed on the pre-moderation list. No exceptions.
Which was elaborated on for those who
couldn’t wait to call his bluffrequired elaboration as follows …Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
2 July, 2022 at 11:28 am
“Would you be able to define what you mean by personal attacks?”
It means personal attacks. Comments based on who someone is rather than what they said. So talking about “Ruby and her posse” would qualify, and so would “behaving like an absolute cunt”.
And to absolutely no one’s surprise has proven to be, in practice, found wanting.
Ergo, no surprise it has got to the stage where someone with form for making threats of physical violence has done so yet again, confident our Loving Lord and Master will issue blusters and final warning galore with Shouty Words In Bold before doing utterly hee-haw yet again.
Were this my own website, I’d be mortified. But it is not, so … oh dear, never mind!
If Stu’s happy to let it remain the Wild West and care nothing for the old adage of being known by the company he allows himself to keep, that’s his lookout – for his reputation and that of “Scotland’s most read political website”. I dare say his detractors will be delighted with his tardiness to basic online ‘housekeeping’.
But one final thought. Isn’t it remarkable how all these over-the-top episodes in the Comments section always happen with remarkable inconvenience just at a point when his Alba Party buds stand perhaps to do well out of recent events in the big kids’ news? Anyone might be tempted to surmise it was on purpose and therefore perhaps some preemptive counter-measures might be called for.
But my guess is that is about as likely to happen as Sturgeon’s Indyref2 or Rangers going two domestic matches without being awarded a penalty.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
6 July, 2022 at 12:48 pm
I have HAD ENOUGH of this fucking playground shit.
Then do something about it.
It’s one thing to accuse Sturgeon, Blackford, etc. of being all mouth and trousers, quite another when you’re found wanting over far more trivial matters.
And if you choose, Stu, to have one of your legendary “fits of temper” and ban me for having the audacity to disagree with your non-actions aloud, then ta-ta, farewell, good luck, I’ll get over it somehow.
When it come to wheels and bogey separation, Sir Lindsay Hoyle has previous.
I recall Alex Salmond raising a point of order after Joanna Cherry had been cut dead by one of his (Hoyle’s) procedural gaffes. He did not respond well.
Not so much a ‘Speaker’, more a ‘Squeaker’
Interesting point that Scottish MPs’ workloads are effectively reduced compared to English MPs due to the devolution of certain powers to the Scottish Parliament for MSPs to then deal with.
link to caltonjock.com
North chiel,
I have to suggest that I can not be the only one exasperated at the sleeping agents in the devolved government since 2014.
I can not be the only one whom thinks there was and is something terribly amiss when we study the treaty and how Westminster attach no importance to the words of agreement. Or how they have changed the terms and terminology of what is supposed to be an international treaty.
I have firmly come to the conclusion that only the signitories actually on the treaty are signed up to it Literally.
That the Scots and Scotland are to be admired for having such patients with Scam artists.
“ Dan says @0614 pm” , where is the England Act 1998 ? devolving the exact equivalent powers to an a PR English Parliament ? How on earth under the Act of Union , can a “ supposed “ UK Parliament devolve powers to Holyrood without devolving the exact equivalent powers to an English Parliament ?
This “ subsidiary “ devolved Parliament has compromised the sovereignty of the Scottish people .
Withdraw “ Independence “ elected MP’ s from what is now the Defacto English Parliament , now a “circus big top “ with Hoyle as “ ringmaster”
Stuart MacKay: “On a more serious note, this indicates very much a top-down organisation. While that’s just the way the Dear Leader want it, it’s also likely to lead to the destruction of the SNP once she departs as it simply can no longer fend for itself.”
This came home to me shortly after Blackford had led the parliamentary SNP out of the chamber in protest four years ago (sounds completely impossible now). At the next branch meeting, the rank and file members like me were rather excited by this show of defiance and backbone but a few office-bearers and our own milquetoast MP were pretty lukewarm about the whole thing.
The latter actually said that reaction “on the doorstep” (that mendacious phrase usually used by politicians who have no real interest in engaging with the proles and so rarely bother to listen) had not been “very positive” (how could she know?) and that it was not the kind of thing which could be done often. When it was pointed out to her that it had added 5,000 new SNP members in jig time there was an excruciating tumbleweed hiatus while some bums squeaked on seats and feet shifted uneasily.
I think we all got the message then that the leadership was not interested in exploiting Erskine May and disrupting that gruesomely corrupt old Gothic pile as Salmond (an EM expert) would have done and that it was not happy with the walkout.
Who knows, maybe Blackford even had had his knuckles rapped, which might explain his feeble parliamentary behaviour since then?
.
MR Lindsay Hoyle is an overpromoted piece of troughing careerist “businessmen” who infest the local coooncil, then await buggins-turn to climb the greasy pole.
You get a bent whiff off of Lindsay Hoyle and understandably so. That failure of a Speaker is the dirty sperm of the brown-envelope thieving utterly odious scandal-ridden cash-for-questions grifter, Mr Doug Hoyle MP.
link to independent.co.uk
The hypocrisy of Gammon Faced Lindsay Hoyle is evident in his loss of bearing and loss of dignity, becoming evidently incontinent in his enthusiasm to bend, then break the rules of Erskine May to SHOUT SHOUT SHOUT to throw his weight about throwing true men of honour out of that cesspit chamber. Mr Lindsay Hoyle showed his true colours.
Hoyle should face CHARGES of bringing the Office of the Speaker into DISREPUTE.
Both Hoyles are/were ignorant greedy political careerists. Sperm of the older, channeling his dodgy old man via a hysterical display of incompetence that should disbar Hoyle Jnr., from being Speaker.
Also, that fake knighthood should removed from his pompous yappy mouthed scrawny neck.
Fortunately Hoyle Junior has only a few miles left in him before he becomes the ex of exes. As has been said, “there is nothing more ex than an ex MP.”
Hoyle senior was bent and was part of the cash for questions scandal. The sooner that place is rid of the name Hoyle the better. No honour between them.
@ Tinto Chiel (7.24) –
‘Who knows, maybe Blackford even had his knuckles rapped…’
He may even have had his baws skelped, but some of his colleagues probably regard that as a perk.
Ian Brotherhood says:
14 July, 2022 at 8:20 pm
He may even have had his baws skelped, but some of his colleagues probably regard that as a perk.
—
There’s too much smut & innuendo btl, so moving on.
Quiz time:
1. Who said ‘Eh’ve got a castle’, in a high-pitched voice?
2. Who dragged a ewe out of
@Ian B: continuing in this vile vein, those members might be disappointed to have the whip withdrawn as a disciplinary measure.
Sorry, I’ll get my leather coat with matching studded gauntlets 🙂 .
I hate painting kitchens (not a metaphor): mofftaemapit!
@Scott (8.43) –
I give up.
Know why the SNP will never get my vote ever again, as a man? Read the interview here below with her last October in Vogue, where she talks about her ‘husband’ like a 1950s man would talk about a woman, and wonders aloud why the halfwit Johnson doesn’t even want to be in the same room as her. Incredible lack of self-awareness.
link to vogue.co.uk
Then note her saying she does not even want to shake a man’s hand. And then let me tell you a wee brief true story. The manhater put in a hush-hush visit to the workplace of a male friend of mine recently to get photos of herself pretending to care. She met my pal and grabbed his wrist, sort of pulling on it instead of shaking his hand.
He made nothing of it, until I pointed out her Vogue quote to him. She wasn’t joking about not wanting to shake a man’s hand. She is a female supremacist who genuinely despises half the population. Not wanting to shake a man’s hand has fuck all to do with germs, and everything to do with the weird wee creep being Howard Hughes levels of batshit crazy.
Certainly made sure she got a photay shaking Biden’s hand, though, eh?
I bet Alex Salmond rues the day he ever met her. She’s the worst thing that ever happened to this country.
Ian Brotherhood says:
14 July, 2022 at 9:05 pm
@Scott (8.43) –
I give up.
—
You’re not allowed to, it’s forbidden.
@Mark Boyle 5.54 pm
Oh yeah….I’d forgotten about the threats of violence. As you say, mouth and trousers stuff I reckon. Between the cunt calling, the constant othering of anyone disagreeing with them as not “real” independence supporters, and the frankly just plain creepy stalkers amongst them, a small cadre of wallopers certainly do seem to have driven this place up the cul-de-sac of stupid.
Half a dozen comments in what…three and a half hours.
With everything else that’s going on, and the subject of the post, I guess that tells its own story, huh?
O/T: the questions of franchise and the SSRG/Salvo work were raised at this evenings Perth Wee Alba book event. However I was disappointed with the answers.
Alex treated the franchise question as if it was purely a question of the need to include immigrants [i.e. not born in Scotland] in the vote – citing the 72% Yes vote by Asians. That is a useful piece of data BUT of course the point of the question was surely about the fact that the 2014 franchise was a local authority franchise rather than a General Election one and thus allowed second-home owners and transitory students from England [and elsewhere] to vote on a constitutional matter. There could have been discussion about the different franchises used by other countries on constitutional matters.
Eva Comrie answered the SSRG/Salvo question as if it were a general one about how various groups can contribute to the campaign whereas I am sure that the question was made in order to share the news about our existing constitution that was preserved in the Treaty of Union and which gives the Scottish people power over all politicians. It is a pity that this opportunity was lost to gain a wider audience for Salvo/SSRG’s work – I was watching via Independence Live.
Apart from that it was another good event. Alex spoke very powerfully and convincingly about how Westminster Nationalist MPs could create so many difficulties that a s30 would have to be agreed. He also said that in the past he had never doubted that fellow SNP members were totally committed to the cause. He admitted to having had a blind spot about this when the party became far more successful – he now realises that some have their own agenda and they think that independence is just something that would be good at some point but not their driving concern. Who can he be thinking of, I wonder?
Hi Tinto Chiel at 9:00 pm.
You typed,
“Sorry, I’ll get my leather coat with matching studded gauntlets ? .”
Surely, you’ve not ditched the leather crotchless balaclava?
You Lanarkastrians can disappoint…
@ Sarah 9.50pm that breakdown of the meeting is truly disappointing , it appears once again that politicians don’t listen and are only interested in THEIR interpretation of what matters , it appears Billy the unionist connolly was right ,anyone who wants to be a politician should automatically be barred from being one
Hey Rev, just thought I’d say hi, what a Summer we’re having eh?!
The guys did good.
twathater says:
14 July, 2022 at 11:05 pm
@ Sarah 9.50pm that breakdown of the meeting is truly disappointing , it appears once again that politicians don’t listen and are only interested in THEIR interpretation of what matters , it appears Billy the unionist connolly was right ,anyone who wants to be a politician should automatically be barred from being one…
Lots of people are talking about the same thing, but coming at it from different directions.
SALVO are calling it a Convention of the Estates, ALBA call for a National Commission, but whether it’s called a Grand Committee or a Constitutional Convention, it amounts to the same thing…
It’s the “body” which will represent the Constitutional Sovereignty of Scotland, and draw it’s authority from sovereign realm of Scotland and Scotland alone.
In some respects it will act like yet another Parliament, but don’t be put off by the word. It needs to secure Legal Personality in order to speak directly to foreign governments and be respected as the primary voice of Scotland’s Sovereign Nation, or at the very minimum, be taken seriously enough to formally dispute the conventional view of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty.
Alf Baird and SALVO refer to creating a Liberation Movement, and again, I think it’s different words for the same thing, the “mobilisation” of our Sovereign argument and the creation of a body to do it.
The answer is staring us in the face. Our enlightened ancestors knew it all along.
What actually is Scotland’s 13th Century “Community of the Realm” if not the same thing as their YES movement? Political, but more than any political party, supported by institutions and public bodies, but ultimately an all inclusive grassroots organisation.
Scotland’s Community of the Realm IS Scotland’s YES Movement armed with a sovereign Constitution.
All the components are there, but still jumbled up. We are lacking the clear focus of our ancestors, but I feel that clarity is coming back to us. Our Nation is reawakening from it’s 300 year long induced coma. It’s a little groggy and disorientated, but the vital signs are strong.
It’s maybe not the exact fit for Scotland’s situation, but in 1944, the transition from Vichy French Government back to sovereign French Government was achieved through the establishment of the Provisional Government of the French Republic 1944-46.
Special note of caution however… There is another parallel. Ireland’s Proclamation of the Republic in the 1916 Easter Rising. All seven signatories to the Proclamation were eventually executed by the British.
@twathater
Doubt AS seriously thinks that France prevents its Islamic community from voting* so, the question having been expressed awkwardly, suspect he probably jumped straight to the hammer that settled the argument when the referendum was run (under local election rules in accordance with EU legislation) the first time around.
Easy way to test for integrity (if still considered necessary) would be to make Boris/Penny’s job even easier by using the SALVO Claim to disband the UK in September – and give Scottish nationality to all our Hong Kong citizens in advance of the confirmatory defacto GE (with double the MPs and double the votes per elector) next year 😉
*Curiously enough France does(/did this year) make it extraordinarily difficult for its students to vote by post (convoluted digital application that required to be registered in person with police in advance – only for admin to fail to confirm its approvals with all the respective mayors (returning officers) in any event)
That is a useful piece of data BUT of course the point of the question was surely about the fact that the 2014 franchise was a local authority franchise rather than a General Election one and thus allowed second-home owners and transitory students from England [and elsewhere] to vote on a constitutional matter. There could have been discussion about the different franchises used by other countries on constitutional matters.
Ay, there’s the rub, eh…? Perhaps the reason Alex Salmond’s response disappointed the nativists is that he realises that the plans of the more extreme proponents of nativism would disenfranchise around 20% of those who voted in 2014. The optics of that for a civic nationalist movement are obvious to most of us, as is the potential for it it to rebound on us electorally.
Hard as it might be for nativists to accept, the mainstream movement – including Alex Salmond – can see that franchise restriction plans are electoral poison. Doubtless the usual suspects will be out in force telling us that much as they respect Alex, he’s wrong on this one, much as they did in response to Stu Campbell’s original fisking of their regressive narrative.
How many votes from transitory students and second home owners do folk actually think there were in 2014? Are we honestly saying that it’s worth disenfranchising the many “New Scots” who voted Yes in 2014, and will vote Yes in future, to exclude those groups?
Can you guarantee the number of those (presumably mainly No voters) you’re excluding by moving away from the 2014 franchise, isn’t exceeded by the number of Yes votes you’re losing?
Unless you’re one of those arguing for the exclusion of everyone not actually born here, or the imposition of ridiculous residence criteria like 10 or 20 years – which the extreme fringe are definitely doing – it still looks like a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
What other countries have used “different franchises”? It’s already been shown that the vast majority of other self determination referendums since WW2 used residence based franchises similar to that used in Scotland in 2014. A few imposed residence criteria of 24 months.
Unless you’re accepting the false narrative that Scotland is a colony, you simply can’t compare our situation with cases of de-colonisation, or territories the UN regards as officially Non-self governing, however hard some folk try to insist Scotland is just like New Caledonia, or Gibraltar. The UN isn’t buying it, and neither is anyone else with a sense of perspective and basic grasp of history.
Iain Macwhirter in The Herald:
link to heraldscotland.com
Who cares who can vote? Who cares about the question ?
Stu set it out. It ain’t gonna happen.
That is the very bottom line, and until we are led by someone who heads a group with real fire in their belly for Independence, that’s how it’s going to stay.
McWhirter in the herald sharpening up his scaremongering for the Union.
Labour will have a bit of a dead cat bounce but Sir Keir hasn’t grazed the chin of the worst
Prime Minister and government in years.
Stars like Abbott, Nando and Thornberry couldn’t run a bath.
We need SNP to attack. No prisoners and no English rules.
How but independence makes Scotland self sufficient in oil, gas and electricity.
You can be the Europeans you want to be and not a poor Englandshire.
No longer to suffer a Tory oaf you openly declares he hates Scots and he controls you.
Do you want to stay with a foreign government that you haven’t voted for in 70 years.
Do you want to put billions into Englands HS2, their Nuclear plant that will serve them, pay for Tory supporters Track and Disgrace and Billions on their unusable PPE.
Never forget Labour ending final salary pensions, selling off our gold reserves on the cheap
their £50 Billion PPI schools and hospitals that will cost tax payers over £300 Billion with interest. How Blair and Brown became multi millionaire socialists.
How Brown lied thru his clunking teeth about an independent Scotland becoming the only European country that wouldn’t have pensions, blood transfusions or organ transplants.
Really? How pathetic for a fellow Scot to insult his own nation as being too stupid to do what we and every other country already do.
Pour their own McCrone report down their throats.
How they have lied about our oil running out in every decade in the last 50 years.
How every single aspect of their Vow was broken
How Westminster are willing to break every and any law and break any agreement they have signed.
Stand up or continue with a Tory heel on your throat forever.
Tom says:
15 July, 2022 at 8:00 am
Iain Macwhirter in The Herald:
link to heraldscotland.com
MacWhirter is a lazy timeserver who copies his column either from Wings or from the comments sections of the Herald.
He didn’t even have the wit to point to the elephant in the room all the other newspapers for “grown ups” (Times, Telegraph, Guardian, Scotsman, Press & Journal) managed: that the last party which tried stupidly to make a Westminster election a “referendum” on something else on their say-so was the Lib Dems on Brexit – the result was not merely their slaughter at the polls to almost single figures in seats, but their leader humiliatingly losing her seat – something Sturgeon of all people ought to remember considering her Tracy Flick in “Election” style celebration at the news.
They’ll be fuck all left of our country if there ever was a referendum anyhow.
Who the fuck gees the twats authority to sell our land to big hedge funds under our noses and in plain site?
link to msn.com
Add in the oil, the wind generation ,wave stuff etc. What’s gonna be left?
All this carbon credits stuff is a scam. Bernie Madoff would have loved this one.
Wonder how many shares the fat controller and his chums have in these companies.
link to scotsman.com
It’s bad enough oor oan current Scottish “Government” bunging unionist papers millions of quid to help them…
So here’s that Herald article archived to say giving them direct page hits.
link to archive.ph
And here’s the Scotsman article archived.
link to archive.ph
Sturgeon: “I did not pay much attention to the protest”
No, i’m sure you didn’t, you don’t pay much attention to anything other than your self, Ms Skanky.
In other news John McLellan says SNP/Green referendum plan is a charade. link to archive.ph
We really need to be in Sturgeon’s face about all of this. She’s using us and her position for her own agenda. And she’s squandering open goals, deliberately, opportunities all previous SNP leaders would have given anything for.
She’s also humiliating Scotland every time she begs for a show of democracy from Westminster. Coming across as embarrassingly desperate saying things such as she’s willing to possibly compromise on the conditions of a referendum etc.
A country that holds most of the power cards is being humiliated, embarrassed and led by a self-serving desperate turncoat. And her inexperience is on show for the world to see. She’s long since past her best-by date.
Mark Boyle @ 8.41, I’m afraid that comment is beneath your usual standard…
The Lib-Dems did not try to make that or any election a single issue referendum on Brexit.
The elephant in the room with regards to Macwhirter’s ridiculously bad article is the presumption that Scottish voters will flock to Labour because, under Starmer, Labour will have a fighting chance of winning.
Hatuey says:
15 July, 2022 at 9:39 am
Mark Boyle @ 8.41, I’m afraid that comment is beneath your usual standard…
The Lib-Dems did not try to make that or any election a single issue referendum on Brexit.
link to theguardian.com
“Lib Dems pledge to revoke Brexit without referendum”
link to news.sky.com
“Lib Dems agree to cancel Brexit without 2nd referendum if they win next election”.
Etc!
Mark’s direct link to the Guardian archived.
link to archive.ph
Ellis,
“ Hard as it might be for nativists to accept, the mainstream movement – including Alex Salmond – can see that franchise restriction plans are electoral poison.”
This is completely inaccurate.
Alex Salmond knows there has to be franchise restrictions, that’s exactly why they were used before.
If you want to argue about changing the restrictive franchise that has already been used, then please do but try at least to get the foundations of your argument correct.
So to clarify, there will be a restrictive franchise, we have already used a restrictive franchise, we need to use a restrictive franchise, it is absolutely essential that we use a restrictive franchise.
People are debating, not whether we use a restrictive franchise or not but whether that franchise is restrictive enough.
@Andy
After 10+ yrs of project fearty, biggest problem with the new Scots you champion might be less the concern about whether they’re the best of the best from the old country (or simply better than us period), and more putting the Maskill nonsense to bed and rediscovering the enjoyment of their ripping the proverbial straight from the introduction – ie from Tugendhat to Captain Morduant and the sas Sunak all the way to embracing Bad-enoch or Ms Truss in a French way.
1. How many votes from transitory students and second home owners do folk actually think there were in 2014?
2. Unless you’re one of those arguing for the exclusion of everyone not actually born here…
3. What other countries have used “different franchises? – Ellis
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1. I don’t care how many there were, it’s the principle. Such people should not be entitled to vote in a self-determination referendum.
2. “electoral registers must be permanent or refer to a register that is constantly updated (population register or register of births, marriages and deaths)” – Council of Europe Code of Good Practice On Referendums.
3. Gibraltar had residence of not less than 10 years (2002); New Caledonia went further with 20 years. Both referendums were legal and recognised by the ‘relevant parent states’ and wider international community
It is perfectly lawful to use Scotland’s National Records to compile the franchise.
It is also perfectly lawful for those meeting residence criteria to be added to that list.
@ Breeks re….Lots of people are talking about the same thing, but coming at it from different directions.
SALVO are calling it a Convention of the Estates, ALBA call for a National Commission, but whether it’s called a Grand Committee or a Constitutional Convention, it amounts to the same thing…
It’s the “body” which will represent the Constitutional Sovereignty of Scotland, and draw it’s authority from sovereign realm of Scotland and Scotland alone.
In some respects it will act like yet another Parliament, but don’t be put off by the word. It needs to secure Legal Personality in order to speak directly to foreign governments and be respected as the primary voice of Scotland’s Sovereign Nation, or at the very minimum, be taken seriously enough to formally dispute the conventional view of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty.
Alf Baird and SALVO refer to creating a Liberation Movement, and again, I think it’s different words for the same thing, the “mobilisation” of our Sovereign argument and the creation of a body to do it.
The answer is staring us in the face. Our enlightened ancestors knew it all along.
What actually is Scotland’s 13th Century “Community of the Realm” if not the same thing as their YES movement? Political, but more than any political party, supported by institutions and public bodies, but ultimately an all inclusive grassroots organisation.
Scotland’s Community of the Realm IS Scotland’s YES Movement armed with a sovereign Constitution.
All the components are there, but still jumbled up.
Hello Breeks, I’m with you on this one, especially re it all be jumbled up, and many words to describe the same thing.
I suspect that our Community of the realm, has in reality been superceded and overtaken by our systems of Government and electorial representation.
To create an additional body to do what has already delivered 6 Mandates over 8 consecutive years appears a duplication.
But if we look again at what Powers the Claim of Right convey upon us, the people, it says we have the power to sack Governments, Kings and Queens, High Court Judges when they fail to uphold their duty of protecting the people of Scotland and the country, and – with regards the Treaty of Union – if they attempt to alter, amend or dismiss – any part of the Claim of Right with regards the Sovereignty of the Scots.
In order for that to work, the ONLY way for that to work, is – like putting the horse before the cart – that the power to serve notice on those breaching our laws and call them to tribunial – must be in the hands of the people – not our elected reps, not our lawyers, not our Attorney Generals – you, and me, and Mrs McGinty down the street.
So we stand now, with 6 Mandates in our pocket, and a British Government instructing its lawyers to stand in the way of Scotland revisiting the issue of its Governance via a Referendum and threatening our Claim of Right, and a porposed new Treaty of Union sitting in the HoC to over rule all Scotlands laws and take power all to England.
Those 6 Mandates are the ‘gold standard’ over anything a Convention of the Estates could produce in terms of evidencing majority public mood.
The bottleneck is when our elected reps fail to act with the power the Claim of Right empowers them with.
But it doesn’t only empower them… it SPECIFICALLY empowers us, otherwise it would be no power at all, and all that would be required would be to nobble our elected reps to do sod all.
We are potentially in a very powerful position, in that we, the people, could serve legal notice to end the Union.
I hope I’m making sense.
Luckily the act – for it to have meaning at all – foresaw this
Mark, I don’t need to click your links. The libDems simply never contested the election on a single issue. It didn’t happen and no amount of links or quotes will change that.
And I don’t know why you are using that non-example to trash the SNP idea of standing on a single issue. It’s odd. Most people support the plebiscitary election idea.
@ twathater and others: My comment at 9.50 p.m. last night was swiftly followed by some second thoughts but the system seized up and my second thoughts never appeared – a pity as it would have saved some of the other btl responses! Apologies.
First, it was only two of the answers that I would have liked more detail in. And the format wasn’t a debate so in-depth discussion wasn’t possible. The over-riding impression from the evening was that Alex Salmond has the drive and the answers to the current inaction [and incorrect policies on e.g. energy] of the SNP. The audience too seemed to think he has.
Second, Eva Comrie isn’t a politician- her motivation for independence is that it will make it possible to improve the lives of the majority of people who are currently struggling/likely to struggle.
Third, Alex was stressing another very important point in his reply on the franchise – it was that there would have been a bigger Yes vote if we had got even more people onto the register. He said that one of the most useful things activists can do now is getting people onto the register AND at the same time, get them to apply to be postal voters.
We may look on in absolute disgust at this man his face contorted with hate bawling and threatening but it is the phyical manifestation of something bigger.
At a stroke this thug, and I use the word appropriately, together with his chamber of English MP’s showed how much they hate Scotland and its people’s right to choose their future.
Yes Sturgeon may be compromised. The analogy of her being Scotland’s colonial leader, like similar leaders in India and elsewhere in the past is a good one.
However, Sturgeon and her clique is not the independence movement and these two ALba MP’s getting to their feet was a dagger into the heart of the English who would deny Scotland its rights to choose. That is why the English MP and their speaker resorted in such unbridled hate and fury.
Scotland does have the right to choose and the English know it. That is why they wanted to shut these two ALBA MPs down.
But the message is out and the outright hatred against Scotland by English MPs and the English establishment is no clear to see, and this was a very public example of it for all the world to see.
So they’ve binned a S30. For many a S30 was not the route to independence. Plebiscite and claim of right trumps that and now with the rejection of the request for an unconstitutional S30 the game moves on.
Stu Campbell is absolutely accurate to point out the parliamentary procedures that could and should have ensued. How the removal of the two MP’s in the way that they were was not in his power, and how the SNP sat on the fat arses doing nothing – some even smirking.
Yes Sturgeon and many of the clique are Vichy fifth columnists but things are changing, and it is people who can and will change it.
And why did Johnson refuse a S30. Well I think the calculation by the Westminster government was that even with all of the tools of the establishment and a rigged referendum it would be lost.
Well we’ve now moved on – and a plebiscite, claim of right is not something that the English MPs and their fifth columnists can resist. And their hatred to us. Well that is something we can all now see.
Sixty four countries have left England’s grip – and Scotland could be next.
Comments have been made about Sturgeons newfound enthusiasm about independence.
The thought has occurred to me that if her gamble of using the next UK general election on a single issue of independence fails, she can just shrug her shoulders, say the public needs to be convinced of independence and carry on as usual.
It does seem a win, win situation for her, regardless of the outcome.
What was the point of the protest when there was so much noise no one knew what was going on then they got thrown out before the BBC had gone live I had to rely on the studio to say what had happened
1. I don’t care how many there were, it’s the principle. Such people should not be entitled to vote in a self-determination referendum.
You’re on record as saying only those born in Scotland should be eligible to vote. Not many would agree with such an extreme nativist position, and of course it’ll have next to zero support more broadly in the movement. Indeed it would doubtless cost us votes.
2. “electoral registers must be permanent or refer to a register that is constantly updated (population register or register of births, marriages and deaths)” – Council of Europe Code of Good Practice On Referendums.
And your point is caller….? What was wrong with the 2014 precedent? So it enfranchised some students and second home owners. Big deal…..
As noted by the person present at the Alba meeting, Alex seemed more concerned with increasing the number of people on the register, which seems entirely sensible. The same goes for increasing the turnout: 85% was pretty good in 2014, but the Quebec indyref in 1995 had a turnout of 92.5%. The only comeback one of the nativists had to that the other night was they thought the number was bogus. Just shows they have no real argument,
3. Gibraltar had residence of not less than 10 years (2002); New Caledonia went further with 20 years. Both referendums were legal and recognised by the ‘relevant parent states’ and wider international community
Gibraltar is not Scotland. New Caledonia is not Scotland. Both are non self governing territories recognised as such by the UN. Scotland isn’t. However often you try to use these examples as comparisons, it becomes no more convincing.
It is perfectly lawful to use Scotland’s National Records to compile the franchise.
Nobody said otherwise. Go do! The Catalans compiled a register specifically for their indyref. The difference between them and Scottish nativists is they didn’t try to disenfranchise 20% of the people in Catalonia, because they are civic nationalists, not blood and soil ethnic nationalists.
The Catalans also provided a facility for Catalans abroad to register to vote: will you be advocating for that too? Seems to follow logically from the nativist narrative after all: if you were born in Scotland, and would be entitled to citizenship post independence, shouldn’t you get a say?
It is also perfectly lawful for those meeting residence criteria to be added to that list.
That’s great: what residence period are you proposing to use then? Because the vast majority of non-colonial referendums had no period of residence requirement at all, and a couple asked for short periods like 24 months.
We know that lots of the nativists in here are proposing periods like 10, 15 and 20 years, which nobody uses, except in the non-analogous colonial cases you think are slam dunk proofs. The nativist franchise restriction turd, however lovingly polished, remains just a turd.
Further to the franchise question.
The Act of the Scottish Parliament that created the franchise for 2014 ceased to have effect on 1st January 2015.
It’s an ex franchise, but I feel there’s a need to highlight that even though the two Governments agreed on the franchise in the ‘Edinburgh Agreement’, Scottish Ministers retained the power to amend it, via amendment of the local government franchise.
Those days are past etc.
European Council & their Code of Good Practice on Referendums is today.
Unashamedly bumped again: link to venice.coe.int
Claim of Right Act 1689 is also today. Search legislation dot gov dot etcdot
Hatuey says:
15 July, 2022 at 12:03 pm
Mark, I don’t need to click your links. The libDems simply never contested the election on a single issue. It didn’t happen and no amount of links or quotes will change that.
So your answer is “lalalalalalalanotlisteningnotlistening!”?
Par for the course round these parts, but never mind.
For the record, it should also be noted that the Fib Dems – as well as dishonestly running up a series of fake “other” parties to contest Tory marginals whose sole purpose was to print and post anti-Tory leaflets and thus double the de facto spending of the real LibDem candidatures (see Guido Fawkes for full details of this subterfuge) – also created the Unite To Remain alliance, where the LibDems, Greens and Plaid Cymru only stood one candidate on a “Return to the EU” ticket in in 49 English constituencies and 11 Welsh.
The LibDems and their apologists can rewrite history as much as they want. The historical record however does not lie – in particular that their tawdry alliance only won one seat and lost another!
‘Iain Macwhirter: Sturgeon may have created the SNP’s biggest disaster in 35 years’
Where would that leave Indyref2? Unionists will say: you’ll have had your referendum and you lost. It was anyway a huge ask to expect the SNP to win more than 50% of the votes in the next general election.
I keep coming across these suggestions that it will only be votes for the SNP that count.
[…] Enough has already been said about the behaviour of the Speaker, who was so apoplectic about Scots asking questions about Scottish democracy that many members (not Tories, obviously) feared for his health. For those who want to see what democracy in Westminster is like, have a look at this. […]