The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

Tidying up

Posted on September 28, 2021 by

Right, as promised, one last piece of admin. (This post will be removed in due time.)

We left yesterday’s piece and the associated poll up for two full days to make sure the people who don’t read Wings at weekends saw it and had the chance to vote in it too. But in truth it was pretty obvious how the vote would go from about 20 minutes in.

Like, that’s not even a little bit close.

So the remainder of the Wings Fighting Fund will be used to commission occasional opinion polls until it runs out or until (ha) a second indyref becomes a reality, whichever happens first. However, almost everyone who gave a reason for voting “Oppose” (and quite a few who voted “Support”) said they did so because they wanted me to keep the money for myself.

That wasn’t offered as an option in the poll, because I’m not the SNP or Kezia Dugdale – that money was donated and meant to be used to in some way further the cause of independence, not buy me Lamborghinis (at the time of writing my 17-year-old Mini is still doing stellar service) or country cottages.

However, lots of people in the comments also expressed a desire for a final fundraiser to mark the closure of Wings Over Scotland as a politics blog, as a sort of redundancy package. It IS traditional to give a retiring employee a carriage clock or a gold watch or some such, and as it happens there’s a thing I really want but haven’t bought because the price is so absurdly extravagant, so if readers would like to get it as a farewell gift gesture that’d be very lovely.

It’s this hilariously high-tech jacket. It’s got graphene and electric heaters and stealth pockets and all sorts of nonsense, so it’d be ideal for staying toasty while out feeding the swans and squirrels in the fast-approaching winter.

(The three families of swan babies are nearly all fully-grown now and they’re always hungry, while the patter of tiny squirrel paws is imminent if this pic from the park last week is anything to go by.)

Any excess cash raised will go, as always, on crisps, Sherbet Dip-Dabs, fruity gins, and badger food for these goons.

And of course on the foxes (currently six).

And this magical vanishing dick, who bangs on the glass with his beak at teatime if there are no suet pellets on the ledge, or knocks stuff over if the window’s open.

And lastly and absolutely leastly, these complete arses.

Click the pic below, or the poll one at the top of the page, to go to the fundraiser if you want to kick in a few quid for the going-away present. Don’t worry if you don’t – people usually donate in expectation of a good or service, not for one they’ve already had or just to buy somebody some ludicrous parkwear. I have other coats.

And that’s about it. It’s been quite a ride, gang. Hopefully we’ll meet again one day, in the future of a better land where the Wicked Witch is no more and there might actually be a chance at independence. Until then, eh?

Print Friendly

    1749 to “Tidying up”

    1. Ron Maclean says:

      Excellent interview with Gareth Wardell (Grousebeater) on and

    2. Hugh Jarse says:

      Didn’t someone go to the bother counting up CBB’s offerings here, as a way of getting Stu to bin him?
      The usurper.

    3. Hatuey says:

      Was the interview with the famous Grouse Beater a real interview or was it concocted for artistic reasons?

    4. Tannadice Boy says:

      My Granny was born in Eire and emigrated to Scotland when she was 3 for her parents to work in the Dundee Jute Industry. I can apply for an Irish passport and hence Irish citizenship.(Under the Foreign Births Register).If I relocate to Eire I can vote in a future Irish Reunification referendum. If I relocate to Northern Ireland as a British passport holder I can vote in a future Irish Reunification referendum. A lot of academic work on the franchise for an Irish Reunification Referendum has been done. Their general conclusion don’t deviate too much from the normal franchise. Anomalies are inevitable. Will I do any of the above?. Does anybody move to a different country solely to have a vote in a referendum?. Perhaps but it is penny numbers.

    5. Mia says:

      “Your usual over-long an ill thought out contribution”

      Darling, take a close look at yours. It is not exactly the salt of the earth full of credible evidence (two-worded soundbites like civic nationalism are not evidence) or, heaven forbid, short and sweet!

    6. Pixywine says:

      Fluoride in the water supply is basically a chemical attack on your health. That First Minister is a proper don’t give a fuck radge.

    7. Andy Ellis says:

      @Scott 4.19 pm

      Only those that deserve it.

      It’s hardly my responsibility that the lunatics appear to have taken over the asylum BTL recently, but whack a nativist mole is easy.

    8. Pixywine says:

      Andy is a “Communitarian” a modern incarnation of a Communist. He has appointed himself Commissar for right thinking correct attitudes and flicking light switches on and off until the big scary Chimaera goes away.

    9. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tannadice Boy 4.36 pm

      Of course it’s penny numbers, but the Blood and Soil Boko Haram desperately want to fluff their “we’re being swamped and denied indy by all these in-comers” narrative. When people see through that. all that’s left is regressive nativism and references to them not being Scottish enough – including of curse those in their own camp opposing their regressive views.

      Few things are as difficult to kill as a bad idea sadly.

    10. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Hatuey 4.22 pm

      “I can’t believe The Reverend would be comfortable with the way you quote him like that, Andy. You’re starting to remind me of Nicholas Witchell.”

      Doubtless the Rev will be along directly if he agrees with your take on it.

      Of course it’s always possible that he might find your claim to foresight of what he is and is not comfortable with as problematic, or perhaps more so. I don’t think the quote I used is in any way misconstruing Stu’s fairly plainly expressed opinion on the matter.

      He is also on record as saying he wasn’t going to get drawn in to the debate further, so it’s possible that he’ll lose his temper of course. Given this is probably the WoS ‘last hurrah’, I don’t think anyone is really going to lose too much sleep on the matter.

    11. twathater says:

      NO Hatuey he has already STATED THAT HE WOULD ACTIVELY WORK AGAINST INDEPENDENCE if the franchise were changed

      That IMO indicates his dedication and belief to the indy cause , PLUS his total deliberate avoidance although it has been pointed out to him by myself and others many times that SCOTS DID VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE IN 2014 BY 53% and were unapologetically defeated by the 72% of incomers votes , the VERY PEOPLE Andy Pandy wants to GIVE the vote to again , JUST to ensure we are unapologetically defeated again

      Andy should take heed of the Albert Einstein saying ” The definition of INSANITY is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”

      So either Andy is insane which I have pity for him , OR he is a unionist intent on defeating independence AGAIN

    12. Hatuey says:

      Fantastic response, Andy. I question the way you keep bringing Stu into this and you respond with 3 points that all being Stu into this.

    13. Was watching a documentary apparently Anthony Blunt at the end of the war retrieved documents concerning the alleged links of the Duke of Windsor to the Nazis they wont be released until 2037.

    14. Andy Ellis says:

      @Scott 4.19 pm

      Scotland is vanishingly unlikely to change the franchise, so you’re unlikely to see an improvement in your numbers there.

      Also, your analysis (I know that’s pushing it in your case, but bear with me…..) is still flawed. Even the 3 cases quoted don’t really fall within the nativist Taliban sweet spot of imposing the commonly mentioned 10 year residence criteria, or five years. Montenegro asked for 24 months. Lithuania excluded Russians (most of whom were post WW2 immigrants planted by the Soviet regime to “pacify” the Lithuanian SSR) unless they renounced their Soviet/Russian citizenship, which a significant number duly did so they could stay in Lithuania. And Timor l’Este isn’t a great match for Scotland except to the “Scotland as colony” die hards.

      Still, if you think 18.75% is an impressive number, fill yer boots….obviously nothing I say will convince you otherwise. I bet you were a Liberal Democrat in a former life. 🙂

    15. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 5.28 pm

      I know shocking isn’t it, quoting the owner of the blog in defence of a point he’s openly stated in his own BTL comments…….

      Good grief man, get a grip.

    16. Andy Ellis says:

      @twathater 5.12 pm

      45% of Scots voted Yes. you don’t get to separate the sheep from the goats on your blood and soil interpretation of who is Scottish enough. If you can’t persuade a majority of the voters of your case, your case is shit. You don’t get to move the goalposts and queer the pitch because “indigenous” Scots are too frit to take their own independence.

      For all you know, changing the franchise will decrease the Yes vote. It obviously bothers you hugely that there are people like me who would actively campaign against changing the franchise, and would vote No if you and your moon howler mates ever succeeded in winning your argument.

      Luckily that’s vanishingly unlikely, because your don’t have the support or the political smarts to change people’s minds.

      Insisting fellow nationalists like me are actually unionists just makes you look unhinged, not that it’s a huge surprise given the quality and content of your output. If your case is that strong no doubt you will prevail. Like I said before, if the nativist Taliban were right, this huge increase in unionist voters flooding in to Scotland since 2014 would have had a negative impact in the % of people supporting indy right?

      I’m sure you’ll be providing the evidence for that directly, huh? (cue tumbleweed)

    17. Andy Ellis says:

      @pixywine 4.44 pm

      Is there no conspiracy theory charabanc you won’t jump on, or throw yourself under?

      Fluoridation of water? Really? Sheesh. If blut und boden, climate change denial and being a Covidiot weren’t bad enough, now it’s fluoridation.

      Whatever next?

      With that track record I’d have thought you’d be a fully paid up rainbow-haired sturmjugend too…or is TWAW just too woo-woo even for you?

    18. crazycat says:

      @ Twathater at 5.12

      SCOTS DID VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE IN 2014 BY 53% and were unapologetically defeated by the 72% of incomers votes

      You keep stating this as if it were a fact – in capitals, no less, but it really isn’t.

      The figures of 53% and 72% come from a single study, and are percentages of the people in the study, not of the electorate as a whole.

      It’s not clear that the study was properly representative (it was an academic study, not done by a polling company with BPC standards to meet) and in any case, the sample was far too small to be statistically significant.

      Consequently, the figures you give could be exactly right, over-estimates, or even under-estimates – no-one knows. The two groups in the study that yielded those figures were “people born in Scotland” and “people born in England”. There was no question about birthplace on the referendum ballot paper.

      Additionally, birthplace as the single criterion for being a Scot or an incomer is a blunt instrument which ignores ancestry, temporary residence abroad of parents, and several other factors.

    19. crazycat says:

      @ Andy Ellis at 6.03

      Fluoridation of the public water supply is unnecessary; universal medication without consent; not a substitute for proper dental care (which can include the use of fluoride-containing products for those who want them).

      If the recent statements of the CMOs of England, Wales and Scotland are to be believed, it’s not a conspiracy theory either, but something likely to happen in the near future.

      You have some good points to make; it disappoints me (and no, of course I don’t expect that to matter to you) that you seem unable to make them without invective.

    20. James Che. says:

      If you want to move to Scotland.

      Here are some excellent suggestions on how to socially integrate with the local indigenous Scots.

      1) Do not call the Scots liars or accuse them of lying.

      2) Do not tell Scots you are here to educate them.

      3) Do not call Scots tub thumpers.

      4) Do not tell Scots they are misguided nationalist.

      5) Do not call Scots knuckle draggers.

      6) Do not call Scots moon howlers.

      7) Do not attempt to threaten Scots with “ I have reported you to rev stu, or “ I have not reported you to twitter yet” conversations.

      8) Do not call Scots conspirators in theory, ( conspiracy theorists)

      9) Do not tell a Scot they would be confused if you poured water in their wellies.

      10) Do not tell Scots they are Roasters.

      11) Do not call a Scot, creepy, or stalker, when the information is out there in publically and available to everyone.

      12) Do not refer to Scots as dogs returning to their vomit.

      13) Do not call Scots native Taliban.

      14) Do not attack dyslexic Scots for composition of writing difficulties,

      15) Do not call Scots snivelling online cowards.

      16) Do not tell Scots they are not logical and lack mental capacity.


      These insults would not be acceptable to the nation and indigenous people of any country, and Scotland is no different in that respect.
      The antagonism shown in the above comments towards the the Scottish people, this display of hatred , this racist commentary toward the Scottish people, is Hate speech in all its glory……..and now illegal in Scotland.

      We may be able to use this hate crime bill after all 🙂

    21. Republicofscotland says:

      “THE bitter fall out between Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond is to be turned into a TV show, reports say.”

      Bitter fallout my arse, one tried fit up the other to send them to prison for a very long time.

      Trust the Sturgeon arse licking National newspaper to frame it as a bitter fallout.

    22. Dorothy Devine says:

      James Che , I’m only making a wild guess mind ,but I think I have a name to whom all those comments could be attributed!

    23. robbo says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      3 October, 2021 at 3:46 pm
      @robbo 11.16 am

      Me ,Brexiteer? – get a grip you idiot.

      More absolute waffle without addressing folks concerns on a cart blanche franchise where everyman and his British bulldog will exploit without hesitation. England are not independent either but you’re letting them dictate terms. A recipe for another disaster akin to 2014.

      To not even address the residency issue is like going into a battle without any bullets- just firing blanks.

      There’s no reasoning with you- the typical “Harry Enfield” character. You don’t wannae do it like that, you wannae do it like this.

      Good luck wae your campaigning pitch next to “Manky Jakit” I’m sure he’ll be excited with the help of another absolute zoomer waving the Union next to him.

      Am done even talking about this shite because they’ll be no Ref under NS on favorable terms for us.

    24. James Che. says:

      Dorothy Devine.


    25. Gregor says:

      An interesting study recently published…

      “Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States:


      At the country-level, there appears to be no discernable relationship between percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases in the last 7 days (Fig. 1). In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million people. Notably, Israel with over 60% of their population fully vaccinated had the highest COVID-19 cases per 1 million people in the last 7 days. The lack of a meaningful association between percentage population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases is further exemplified, for instance, by comparison of Iceland and Portugal. Both countries have over 75% of their population fully vaccinated and have more COVID-19 cases per 1 million people than countries such as Vietnam and South Africa that have around 10% of their population fully vaccinated.”:

    26. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Someone will correct me if I’m wrong…

      The bill for the 2014 referendum had to be agreed in the Scottish and Westminster parliaments, right?

      And then, after it was all done and dusted, the Act was repealed, right?

      So, if there’s another referendum, the terms, including the franchise, have to be drawn up and agreed, ‘debated’, passed etc before enactment is possible. Right?

      So, in effect, we’re back to square one, blank canvas, it’s all up for discussion etc.

      This idea that the franchise is somehow ‘fixed’ and that we’re talking about amendments to it is fundamentally flawed. Right now, there is ‘no’ franchise. It’s not carved in stone. It has to be established as part of the new process, whenever that gets underway.

      Is that the current position, or not?

    27. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis

      I think it is only you who chooses to liken people you disagree with to pigs. From any other contributor, I would shrug it off as robust banter, yet you insist on your virtue-signalling “civic nationalism” and you insist you are in Rev Stu’s corner.

      In some of his recent posts on Barrhead Boy, Rev Stu explains just which sections of the community are most likely to be adversely affected by the “blood and soil” nationalism you claim to abhor. Some of these people would react very badly indeed to being compared to pigs.

      Andy, you need to take a step back and some time out to get your thinking straight. I suggest that if you really believe that the Scots Indy cause is of interest to all residents of Scotland, then you should stop hurling insults that are only humourously acceptable to the group that I would describe as indigenous Scots.

    28. Breeks says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      3 October, 2021 at 4:51 pm
      @Tannadice Boy 4.36 pm

      Of course it’s penny numbers, but the Blood and Soil Boko Haram desperately want to fluff their “we’re being swamped and denied indy by all these in-comers” narrative. When people see through that. all that’s left is regressive nativism and references to them not being Scottish enough – including of curse those in their own camp opposing their regressive views.

      Sorry Andy, but that’s bullshit.

      Without meaning to be inflammatory, when it comes to Transgenderism, a Transwoman remains a biological male, and sex, except in extraordinarily rare conditions, is binary, irrespective of what the Trans Taliban might say.

      When it comes to Nationalism, or what you deride as “nativists”, suddenly there are all different shades of Nativism, and if you don’t like it, you must be a Terf Blood and Soil Nativist!!

      Well no, that argument isn’t going to fly, because your Nationality is just as binary as your biological sex.

      Citizenship is different. It can be fluid, a bit like gender; you can have multiple citizenships, some are automatic entitlement, some occur by Naturalisation, some can be negotiated, and some can be revoked. Citizenship is non-binary.

      Nationality is binary. Your Nationality is determined by where you are born, and cannot be altered. Where you are born is a singular occurrence which cannot be changed after the event. You cannot be born in two places at once.

      Only Scottish Nationals, those people physically born in Scotland, are thus sovereign citizens. It is their birthright, and it’s as indelible as there Nationality. The two are inseparable.

      All this contrived guff about “nativism” and blood and soil Nationalism simply reveals a level of wilful denial that I’m sorry to say, is comparable to some Transgender nutter insisting that a male body given enough cosmetic surgery magically becomes a female body, and anybody who disagrees is a bigoted Transphobe.

      When the Scottish people, that is, Scottish Nationals, want to hold a Constitutional Referendum on Scotland’s future, NOBODY besides Scottish Nationals gets included in the franchise. There is nothing bigoted or fascist about it, it’s simply a literal and objectively neutral definition being used decisively.

      Having a Nationality is the same deal as having a Nation. If you’re queasy about one, then you’re queasy about both. Scotland’s Constitutional Independence is literally, by definition, an existential matter for Scottish Nationals. If you insist on conflating this Constitutional Referendum by including citizenship as qualifying criteria, then you threaten to compromise the entire validity of the whole ballot, because whatever conclusion it arrives at can no longer be considered as the will of a constitutionally sovereign people.

      That’s not regressive nativism as you would call it, it is understanding the difference between Nationality and Citizenship. You are simply blurring the lines deliberately in much the same way a Transactivist demands we blur the distinction of biological sex to accommodate their neurosis.

    29. John Main says:


      I expect the answer is that most people have bought into the myth that being vaccinated protects you to the extent that you can throw all caution to the winds.

      I now expect many posters BTL here apologising for their previous insistence that the unvaccinated pose an existential threat to society and should be treated like sub-human scum.

      Haha, I crack me up.

    30. Pixywine says:

      Andy Ellis. Shift change at 10:00?

    31. Scott says:

      Gregor says:
      3 October, 2021 at 7:23 pm

      An interesting study recently published…

      “Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States:


      If Iceland has a population of 400000+, it can’t really ever have cases per million in any useful sense, especially since the US counties are given the courtesy of being judged per 100000. (Iceland has seen a reduction in case numbers since the study took place that invalidate their inclusion…they’ve had 3 short-lived ‘spikes’ in daily cases since the start of the pandemic and the latest was slightly less ‘severe’ than the 1st and significantly less than the 2nd of Nov 20202.)

      Statisticians are boring, cycloptic bastards; The actuarial cohort I ‘studied’ alongside weren’t always that way…I blame the lecturers (Prof L Patterson was one, until he defected to Edinburgh Uni from Heriot-Watt)

      The most important finding comes at the bottom of the article. (Similarly in published opinions of the Judiciary in both Civil & Criminal cases here in Scotland)

      I’ve taken the liberty of copying and pasting it below, paragraphed for ease of reading. (My italics and bold, author’s grammar and punctuation)

      [In summary, even as efforts should be made to encourage populations to get vaccinated it should be done so with humility and respect.

      Stigmatizing populations can do more harm than good.

      Importantly, other non-pharmacological prevention efforts (e.g., the importance of basic public health hygiene with regards to maintaining safe distance or handwashing, promoting better frequent and cheaper forms of testing) needs to be renewed in order to strike the balance of learning to live with COVID-19 in the same manner we continue to live a 100 years later with various seasonal alterations of the 1918 Influenza virus.]

    32. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 7:28pm and Breeks 7:49pm
      Hold on guys, International Law dictates that in a referendum, divergences to the normal franchise could rendered the result null and void if the 2 countries have not agreed these divergences in advance. And the divergences are considered competent. It would really be helpful if you considered the franchise debate for the Irish Reunification Referendum. A competent divergence might be in Eire prisoners can vote but in the North they cannot. If both countries agree a mechanism to address this, then fine. If you deviate from the normal franchise say for a Scottish or General Election for the Referendum without legal justification ie Scottish born voters only and the agreement is not sought of the other party . It won’t hold up. The last thing I want is to win a 2nd Indy Ref but lose it in court. The SG and UK Government’s sorted this all out in 2014.

    33. Scott says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      3 October, 2021 at 7:28 pm

      Someone will correct me if I’m wrong…

      You aren’t, brurr.

      As with everything within the jurisdiction of Scots Law, everything is treated on its own merits at the relevant time

      If/when the time comes for a future referendum, the case-specific ‘rules’ have yet to be written and given assent by the Crown of Scotland (via Presiding Officer, First Minister and Secretary of State for the UK Government in Scotland)

      Any legislation laid at Westminster under English Law that allows this referendum is meaningless and just for show.

      All elections etc are held, and the results verified in Scotland ONLY because Scots Law allows it, WM can’t take that right away…the Court of Session wouldn’t allow it.

      Also, private referendums are legal, which is what I hope our host was alluding to when he mentioned some intermittent polling activity.

      I like your enthusiastic style of reasoning & engagement, Mr Brotherhood. Welcome back, ‘we’ missed you.. ?

    34. Scott says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 7:28pm and Breeks 7:49pm
      Hold on guys, International Law dictates that in a referendum, divergences to the normal franchise could rendered the result null and void if the 2 countries have not agreed these divergences in advance. And the divergences are considered competent.

      It’s you that should hold on, and relax.

      Franchise differences already occur, so there needs to be a look under the bonnet for effective precedent. Handily enough, the EU referendum franchise laws, mandated in England, show that you CAN exclude those who’ll most likely ‘skew the numbers’.

      We don’t need permission via English Law to claim our rights.

    35. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Tannadice Boy (8.20) –


      I think I understand your point, but I’m not suggesting that the Scottish govt unilaterally tinkers with the franchise. (As if this current mob would even consider it!) It’s a given that it would have to follow the Edinburgh Agreement pattern, as ‘Gold Standard’ etc.

      My point (and I apologise for any clumsiness previously) was that the Scottish Referendum Act was passed (i.e. given Royal assent) in 2013. It was then repealed on Jan 1st 2015.

      So, if we ever get anywhere near the stage of another Edinburgh Agreement (which seems vanishingly unlikely so long as Bojo is in place) then everything has to be done all over again, and that includes the franchise. Everything, e.g. whether or not younger adults keep the vote, prisoners serving less than 12-months, etc.

      It may be ‘distasteful’ to some, but confronting the residency issue has to be done again. And that surely requires discussion, clarification, and some kind of confirmation before the process can be completed. (Didn’t Alex Salmond, in a post-referendum interview, admit that this was one of the most difficult things to address when ‘Scotland’s Future’ was being finalised?)

      Whichever way those details pan out in the end, the discussion simply has to happen – for anyone (and I’m not accusing you of this) to then start hurling charges of ‘nativism’, ‘blood & soil’ etc at anyone who dares suggest there be changes, is beyond the pale.

    36. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 9:00pm
      I would agree a new franchise can be agreed but it will probably be tweaking at the edges rather than fundamental divergence from the normal franchise we have for ordinary elections, as the Irish are finding out. The further divergent you are the greater the risk of legal challenge, including from individuals. Ditto for tinkering around with the residency issue but it should be debated and the arguments developed for possible minor changes. If only we had Alex Salmond as our FM.

    37. Hugh Jarse says:

      “If you are serious about improving women’s safety, the starting point has to be having a justice system we can have confidence in and also a justice system that does not systematically let men who are guilty of rape walk free,” she said.

      She being Ms Brindley. The wholly bought shill for She/her.
      Has she been over the pond for reprogramming?

      When people can pick and choose which verdicts are acceptable, and do so with impunity, where justice?

    38. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Tannadice Boy (9.15) –

      ‘If only we had Alex Salmond as our FM.’

      Kin right. But then, he’s an honourable person, and resignation must’ve seemed, at the time, the only option. I don’t know anyone who would’ve batted an eyelid had he stayed where he was but hey-ho, I maybe move in strange circles, being a moon howler.

      And it’s worth considering that Alex, in his new role, has decided that our nation should be a republic and doesn’t actually need the monarchy. That wasn’t the position in 2012. Many of us suspected, at the time, that this was his ‘pragmatic’ side coming to the fore, that he simply couldn’t risk frightening Madge-loving horses. So, it’s not as if he isn’t beyond making radical changes to the case as presented in Scotland’s Future’.

      But then we come full-circle, cause he ain’t in charge. More’s the pity…


    39. crazycat says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood at 9.43

      I don’t think it’s Alex who has decided – the Alba conference voted for a republic, and he, as just one member among thousands, has to abide by that. All that can be concluded is that, if he doesn’t like it, he doesn’t dislike it enough to stomp off in a huff.

    40. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 9:43pm
      I was hoping Stu would begin his polling soon with the remainder of the funds. On January 16th 2015 he published a poll called dividing lines. It was more of a perceptual mapping of socio cultural differences Scotland and rUK. It was about the Monarchy, BBC, EU etc. It would interesting to repeat that exercise now and compare. Has Scotland moved?. Alex thinks so. Let’s find out. Perhaps Stu will allow such suggestions. If you read the last comment from Stu in that article about the EU it was very prescient.

    41. radgie gadgie says:

      Andy Ellis:
      “Fluoridation of water? Really? Sheesh….. conspiracy theory …. woo-woo …. etc …”

      From a meta study by Harvard School of Public Health, entitled “Impact of fluoride on neurological development in children”

      […] They then analyzed possible associations with IQ measures in more than 8,000 children of school age; all but one study suggested that high fluoride content in water may negatively affect cognitive development.

      The average loss in IQ was reported as a standardized weighted mean difference of 0.45, which would be approximately equivalent to seven IQ points for commonly used IQ scores with a standard deviation of 15.* Some studies suggested that even slightly increased fluoride exposure could be toxic to the brain. Thus, children in high-fluoride areas had significantly lower IQ scores than those who lived in low-fluoride areas. The children studied were up to 14 years of age, but the investigators speculate that any toxic effect on brain development may have happened earlier, and that the brain may not be fully capable of compensating for the toxicity.

      “Fluoride seems to fit in with lead, mercury, and other poisons that cause chemical brain drain,” Grandjean says. “The effect of each toxicant may seem small, but the combined damage on a population scale can be serious, especially because the brain power of the next generation is crucial to all of us.”

    42. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian B.

      When Alex Salmond resigned after the referendum, I think we all assumed he was doing the honourable thing, ie, he had failed in his mission to gain independence, so felt the need to move aside to let someone else take the reins.

      I think we all assumed that Sturgeon had been under his mentorship for long enough to be reading from the same page, so we weren’t worried about her taking over.

      Subsequent events have proved how wrong we were to believe that she would pursue independence with the same enthusiasm as Alex Salmond.

      The Wings get-together on 22nd November 2014 always sticks in my mind. It took place on the evening of her appearance at The Hydro. Remember how “buoyed” we all felt?

      Turns out we were being fed placebos.

    43. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @crazycat (10.04) –

      Aye, you’re right. ‘Decided’ was the wrong word. We can only ever wonder whether he was biting his tongue or hiding a smile when that went through!

      @BDTT (20.27) –

      Yes, we were. But we won’t be that daft again.

      Anyway, I’m off to my scratcher. Reckon youse will make it to Glasgow on the 16th? Still to thrash out the final details, but should be Dows, as before ( the bug permitting, of course…)

      As Bugger The Panda used to say, Nytol!


    44. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      What’s happening in Glasgow on the 16th of Septanuary?

    45. Robert Hughes says:

      Reading the comments since my last perusal ( appox 12 hours ago ) struck again and in full agreement with Hatuey’s observation earlier about the quality of the conversation/s here of late .

      How for some people BTL here has been * taken over * by ……y’know * Lunar Howling Natatavistic Bloody Soilers from planet AnTiWaxxx * – that mob : but , like H , I disagree . It’s still – as far as I can tell- the best , most stimulating BTL around . Hands down .

      For which …..I really hope there can be some kind of continuity amongst the commenters here when the * final * curtain is drawn on WOS

    46. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Hughes.

      It could be, that if Rev Stu doesn’t delete any pages, this page, eg, could continue with an ever-changing topic input, reflecting what is “news” at any given time.

      Of course, that would need certain contributors to refrain from attacking commenters, rather than their typing input.

    47. Pixywine says:
      New South Wales Gladys Berijerkov has been forced to resign under investigation for corruption. That is she gave big covid contracts to her mates. I once suggested to a doctor on here that she should perhaps follow the money on what looks to me a cushty little earner for the ruling class.
      We need good carpenters.

    48. Quebec referendum,

      voter franchise limited to Canadian citizen plus at least 6 month residency in Quebec,

      To become a Canadian citizen, most applicants must

      be a permanent resident
      have lived in Canada for at least 3 out of the last 5 years (1,095 days)
      have filed your taxes, if you need to
      pass a citizenship test
      prove your language skills in English or French.

      `moon howlers spittle blood and soilers i didnae mean this and a didnae mean that and you wrong moon howlers`.

    49. Confused says:

      In 2014 we were all about being the “good guys”, no going negative, embracing all (- and no one had really looked into these voting rules from other places, a minor issue) and we just assumed it would be “all right on the night” (the english are a fair minded people, right?) and anyway – there were tons of “other things” to worry about more pressing. If we lost, and the english had voted 50:50 – that is on us, but they didn’t, it was about 80:20 – we fell short by a narrow margin and would have won without them, i.e they absolutely fucked us, the ingrates – but why was this??

      because the “New Scots” are all themselves BLOOD AND SOIL LITTLE ENGLANDERS

      So, how many “blood and soil little-englanders” would you import, allowing a defacto veto on scottish independence, in order to satisfy the vanity of your moral narcissism? How many scottish futures would you sacrifice to your fake “civic” nationalism? Is it a “price worth paying” to see the lives of your fellow Scots go down the shitter? – just so you can feel good about yourself, in your little middle class clique, full of anglo-scum and proud-scots-but? You are not merely a tr41tor, but the worst kind – you do it for free.

      Altruism is all very well but can become pathological. As for magnanimity, the time for that is for when you have won. Not before. We are “the ragged kilted philanthropists” giving away all we have, before we even have it. Since when was giving your enemies (that is what they are) control over your destiny a good idea? It is black nonsense from Satan’s arse – and anyone who would promote this “on a point of principle” using moralistic arguments and emotional appeals, is not to be trusted.

    50. Hatuey says:

      Some interesting news breaking tonight on the world of offshore banking. Described as the biggest ever leak. Squeaky bum time…

      That’s a developing story if there ever was one.

    51. Scott says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      4 October, 2021 at 1:19 am

      `moon howlers spittle blood and soilers i didnae mean this and a didnae mean that and you wrong moon howlers`.

      Hahaha…quality burn.

    52. twathater says:

      @ Crazycat 6.13pm you posted —————–
      “You keep stating this as if it were a fact – in capitals, no less, but it really isn’t.”
      Also ————————–

      “Consequently, the figures you give could be exactly right, over-estimates, or even under-estimates – no-one knows. The two groups in the study that yielded those figures were “people born in Scotland” and “people born in England”.

      Albeit that the figures I posted many times have not been verified by professional attributal polling organisations , what would be the point of a world renowned university conducting a poll of voters relating to indyref of “people born in Scotland” and “people born in England” to produce spurious or fraudulent figures which they published and apparently later removed

      Was the removal due to the truth being unpalatable and embarrassing for some , I personally have no reason to challenge the veracity of the report although it gives desperate others a reason and excuse to question the validity of the research

    53. Robert Hughes says:

      BDTT @ 11.43

      I hope so , though not sure if Stu would want to keep this page running without his oversight , which would require his time and involvement .

      Maybe he would be willing to let someone else take-on that role ?

      You always seem like a fair-minded person , would you be up for the gig – if it was offered ?

    54. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert.

      Due to working ‘n’ stuff, I can only look into WOS now and again.

    55. Robert Hughes says:

      Hi Brian .

      Aye , I get you : probably the same for most of us here . Quite a commitment of time and energy required . Not to mention patience !

    56. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      An intersting read at “YOURS FOR SCOTLAND” this morning, regarding Rosyth – Europe ferries.

    57. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      An “interesting” read, even…

    58. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Loads and loads of comments, all arguing the toss about who’s qualified to vote..!

      Well I’d first like to know when or even if this mythical Referendum is ever going to take place?

      I don’t want one because it would be rigged from top to bottom by WM and the present cosy SNP.

      It’s a “Rogues Banquet” for losers.

      For me, it’s a Plebiscite route or as a second line of attack, the Constitutional way. Both limit the amount of any interference from WM.(They’ll still try of course.)

      As for Scottish Citizenship, if you don’t have an independent country called Scotland first, how do you prove to the World that you are a Scottish citizen? Who issues the passports or ID cards, birth certificates etc.?

    59. crazycat says:

      @ Twathater at 2.52

      I’m not saying that the authors of the academic study reported their findings incorrectly.

      I’m saying that you cannot validly extrapolate their findings from a tiny sample to the electorate as a whole.

      Therefore, when you state that “53% of Scots” did xyz, you cannot know if that is correct. It might be, but you cannot know.

    60. Al-Stuart says:


      Maybe it is time to “Tidy Up” and close down. At least until the Murrell’s have had their collar’s felt by the Metropolitan Police (Livingstone’s McKeystone Cops and/or the disreputable Scottish Clown Office ain’t got the courage to do it).

      Today I started agreeing with Toryboy Douglas Ross, so definitely time to drop politics. They are mostly impotent naval-gazers.

      The Tory “MacKay’s Law” seems the best of a bad lot in the political SPAM menu oozing out of the excremental anus that is Holyrood. The Scottish Executive have done fuck all useful since Alex Salmond left.

      Better still would be cautioning and charging perverted deviant middle-aged men who groom young schoolboys. Instead, in Sturgeon Orwell’s Scotland, when a deviant is found out, they are rewarded and paid tens of thousands of pounds by Nicola Sturgeon’s crooked toxic regime from taxpayer funds.

      Bring on this new Mackay’s Law…

      Better still, beef up some RECALL laws so we, the electorate can get rid of deviant and crooked troughing politicians with the same sort of immunity those rogues have.

      Sturd geon is enough to make you puke and it’s only Monday morning.

    61. holymacmoses says:

      Hatuey says:
      4 October, 2021 at 2:02 am
      Some interesting news breaking tonight on the world of offshore banking. Described as the biggest ever leak. Squeaky bum time…

      That’s a developing story if there ever was one.

      I’ll be surprised if the BBC reports anyone from the UK on from the list

    62. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “NO Hatuey he has already STATED THAT HE WOULD ACTIVELY WORK AGAINST INDEPENDENCE if the franchise were changed”

      Me? When did I state that?

    63. Dan says:

      Archived link to Guardian – Pandora Papers article.

    64. Dan says:

      @ Rev Stu

      FYI the “he” in that comment was referring to Andy Ellis rather than yourself.

    65. Sensible Dave says:

      Ron Maclean 4.25

      … so I followed your advice and expected to read a sensible, thoughtful discussion on the subject of scottish independence.

      A couple of paragraphs in I read “….administration facing a far-right Tory government”.

      Far right?

      A little further on, the discussion quickly moved on to UDI and the (totally false) equivalence with the situation on Rhodesia/Zimbabwe back in the day. I noted that it wasn’t discussed that Scottish independence has minority support in Scotland – but had overwhelming majority support in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe at the time.

      …. at which point, I knew I was wasting my time.

    66. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT (10.54pm) –

      Our mutual friend in Airdrie can give you details – don’t want to write any more here in case, for whatever reason, it has to be postponed.

      Put it this way – pies and sausage rolls will be ordered imminently…


    67. Robert Hughes says:

      I wonder what will escape from this particular Pandora’s Box – not Hope anyway , we can be sure of that , if the revelations from the Panama Papers are anything to go by . A wee bit of moral outrage followed by ……eh ….SFA .

      I see the delightful Blairs – who could give even the Murrell Beard n Merkin duo a few lessons in avaricious self-interest – have been named as beneficiaries of the financial elite Spider’s Web of dodgy tax * avoidance * ( read ” Evasion ” in reality ) arrangements . Though , as ever , it will likely result in precisely zero consequences

    68. Ron Maclean says:

      @Sensible Dave 10:45

      That’s a pity. Perhaps you don’t know enough about Grousebeater or Scotland. Perhaps you don’t want to.

    69. Ron Maclean says:

      @Sensible Dave 10:45

      There are opportunities for comments on both blogs. I note you haven’t commented on either – not under the pseudonym ‘Sensible Dave’ anyway. I’m sure both would welcome your opinion. They might even help improve your understanding of matters Scottish and perhaps reduce your need to carp from the sidelines on this blog.

    70. Breastplate says:

      There is majority support in Scotland for Scottish independence and if you believe there isn’t, we should have a referendum to see who is right, anything else is just speculation.

      Anyway, why are you still feigning disinterest regarding Scottish self determination, why aren’t you feigning disinterest on a knitting forum or advanced Klingon grammar site?

    71. James Che. says:

      Graf midgehunter.

      You have a good point in you’re last lines.

      If the snp are still in power, if a mystical independence vote ever happened!

      Then nothing will be changed unless the people in the present driving seat have their steering wheel wrenched from their hands before then,

      It brings us back to Grouse Beaters and Rev Stu’s comments, although from slightly different perspectives, they do meet in the middle when it comes to the present occupiers SNP and greens,

      We need the heat to be felt under their collars, we need to keep the pressure on them wether it is parents protecting their children, put the pressure on MPs and councillors,

      woman’s rights, trans rights, are not an equaliser position for the snp and greens, apply the pressure to local MPs and councillors as there are plenty of women young and old whom this effects.

      the hate crime bill being seen as prejudice toward a certain section of the uk, Scots and private rights while we are still in the treaty of the union,

      If local petrol stations having no petrol for you’re car, it brings inaccessible travel to appointments for hospital, to the doctors or dentist, being able to travel to work or take you’re children to school if you live where there is a poor public service. Put the pressure on the local councils and local MPs.

      Another pressure is to force local councils and MPs to separate cyclists travellers from the roads of traffic for the benifit of both, make them put their money where theirs mouths are.

      Make local councils and MPs fix the appalling roads and pot holes across Scotland. And open up the side roads and bridges they have closed over the last few years to save money, so make them put their money where their mouths are if they want to go green,

      Apply pressure to the snp and greens for energy prices being so high while we live ( Scotland) in the land of the turbines.

      Apply pressure to the snp and greens to create local jobs to save employment travelling if we are to lead the green charge in Scotland.

      The problem with the present snp and greens is that they have not got plans in situ to replace what they are taken away,

      While others would be contentious with the treaty of the union, and the Scotland act.

      Which I believe is also in the setting up of the devolved government.

      The hate crime bill, parental rights, women’s rights, covid and separating you from your families, etc are all under this,

      You will find it in research by

      Private Rights, Scotland,
      Then search for citizen advice page, where they quote Article 8,

      It appears to be updated in 2021.

    72. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ian B , 16th of this month? Bugger won’t be back in time .

    73. Sensible Dave says:

      Ron Maclean & Breastplate

      I absolutely know, based upon my experience here on wings over the last 8 years or so, that little would be gained from me entering the fray there.

      Years ago, I observed that the SNP was an unhealthy cult where dazzled apostles slavishly followed their leader unquestioningly. I was seriously abused for that (but I didn’t mind!). I said that MS Sturgeon wouldn’t call for indyref2 before Brexit (she didn’t – but I was abused anyway, but I really don’t mind) and if she left until afterwards, she will have missed the boat. Everyone abused me and argued with me that that would never happen – it did (but I really don’t mind).

      BTW, I have also said that Alba will go nowhere with AS as the figure head (unfairly or not, he is too tainted and vulnerable) … it hasn’t.

      Rather than shouting “far-right” at anyone with whom you disagree with (laughable really) – or trying to compare British colonisation in Zimbabwe with the outcome of a democratic referendum of Scottish voters, perhaps it might be worth spending some time convincing no voters of the positives of independence – rather pandering to the converted with that sort B*****x and faux grievances?

    74. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dorothy –



      If it goes okay (i.e. people behave themselves and we get no unwelcome guests) then we may well do another one.

      Other ways of getting together – will keep you posted.


    75. Sensible Dave says:


      …and btw, I have never feigned disinterest. Quite the reverse. I am ambivalent as to the outcome – but very interested in the process.

      Democracy is the only way Scotland will become independent. Reading stuff from loonies trying to sell/justify UDI is the exact, absolute, opposite of democracy. What is meant by UDI in this case is something along the lines of “we can’t get the majority to support our views legitimately – so we’ll do it by force. To paraphrase, “to hell with democracy and basic human rights – folk will do what we tell em’ – and get what we give ’em!”

      I’m sure that will end well.

    76. James Che. says:

      Officially and legal there is a separation between governments and political parties officiating UDI.

      And the people chosen self dertermination.

    77. Dorothy Devine says:

      Thanks Ian.

      Hope it is an undiluted success!

    78. Ron Maclean says:

      @Sensible Dave 2:29pm

      I followed a common practice on this site and tried to draw attention to a post which I enjoyed. You didn’t enjoy it. That’s fine. I’ll leave it at that.

    79. Hatuey says:

      So, thanks for the clarification, Stu, you didn’t say you’d “ACTIVELY WORK AGAINST INDEPENDENCE if the franchise were changed” and Andy Ellis was matter of factly wrong to suggest that, just as he was wrong to pull you into a debate that you expressed a desire to keep out of…

      It’s all pretty moot as long as Monsters Inc. are running the show, of course.

      Am I being too optimistic to hope that the Pandora Papers may have a Scottish dimension?

    80. Robert graham says:

      Deaths in Scotland attributed to the Flu
      2016 – 56.718
      2017 – 57.827
      2018 – 58.292
      2019 – 57.692
      From official Scottish statistics

      Deaths in Scotland attributed to the plague
      Total deaths since March 2019
      The best part of almost 2 years


      YOU WORK IT OUT because it fkn baffles me .

    81. Breastplate says:

      I think you will find that Andy Ellis is wrong about very little, if anything.
      I think Phil Collins explains it best in one of his songs, “ ‘Cause Jesus he knows me and he knows I’m right”.

      I hasten to add that I do find Andy’s unshakable belief in himself, both exasperating and entertaining in equal measure.

      I’m off now as this particular moon howler is off to revisit some vomit, no rest for us wicked nativists.

    82. The Pandora papers are going to be good what is coming out so far might not be illegal but it shows how the mega rich and friends can manipulate the system to hide their money.

    83. Benhope says:

      Just noticed that the price of oil has shot up to nearly $82 a barrel for Brent crude so the price at the pumps will be going up again.
      The price of gas is also sharply up to nearly $6 a unit from about $2 six months ago. Electricity prices will correspondingly be rising again.
      All Scotland`s energy riches heading south as always. What a bitter pill to swallow !!!

    84. twathater says:

      Stu as DAN says at 10.34am the comment and quote that I posted re “actively working against independence” was in response to a statement Andy Ellis made against a franchise alteration and was intended to highlight to others his conditional support to independence which IMO is desultory

      I am aware of your opposition to such and respect your beliefs, you have been prescient in the history of WINGS and the independence journey even when others were denigrating and demeaning you for your stance on women’s rights and safety in the opposition to GRA , and the EXPOSURE of Sturgeon the betrayer which many can now see for themselves

      Your withdrawal from the war (because that is what it is) will only bolster the enemies belief in its superiority and hinder the continuous battle to enlighten and educate people by exposing their duplicity , lies and corruption

      I disagree with your stance on the franchise which as you say is moot anyway because even if Sturgeon is granted (hell freezing over) a referendum it would be so compromised and rigged by WM aligned with the gross and total incompetence of Sturgeon and her circus of freaks to persuade or convince people of the NEED for independence

    85. Has anyone ever said the franchise should be limited to Scots born,

      as far as i am aware most folk would just like a residential qualification like all other countries,

      which seems to be what numpty heed is also sayin,

      so what is numpty heed on about.

    86. Republicofscotland says:

      The SNP’s Kirsty Blackman calling for Joanna cherry to be kicked-out of the party. The wokerati already control the once independent minded SNP party, so Cherry’s days will be numbered for speaking out in this now Stalinist party.

    87. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      In other news…

      On Friday afternoon, I did a shop at Tesco Riverside, Dundee.

      On my way out of the car park, I noticed there was no queue for fuel (unlike the previous week!) and vacant pumps. So I pulled in to a pump and filled up with diesel – just over £30.

      The reason I filled up was because it was my “new” vehicle and it was the first time I had fueled it. What I do is set the trip meter to zero when I fill the tank then, when I top up the tank, I have the mileage I’ve done since last fill-up and the amount I’ve just put in so can work out the mpg.

      Looks like the panic buying has ceased up here but is still rampant in the SE of England.

    88. Dan says:

      @ ROS at 7.07pm

      I’m sure the “decent” folk using what remains of “democratic” process within the SNP will nominate great candidates for the Party’s upcoming NEC elections, and we’ll be back on da Indy train in no time…

      Reviews post before submitting…

      Crikey, I’ve really got to stop drinking the strong stuff!

    89. Hatuey says:

      Robert Graham, your data makes no sense. I can’t tell you there’s been nothing like 57k flu deaths per year in Scotland, if that’s what your data is supposed to imply.

      You might want to provide a source/link.

    90. Hatuey says:

      RoS, I’d love to see them kick Cherry out of the party. They won’t though, for obvious reasons…

    91. Scott says:

      We’ve survived every pandemic [ ], even the permanent ones like influenza & common cold.

      And that’s all I’ve got to say about that.

    92. Scott says:

      “I then went into a meeting so I didn’t see what happened next but I understand a police officer had been following them, and I gave a statement later.” -IDS

      Iain Duncan Smith is a grass. Pass it on.

    93. Hatuey says:

      You, of course, mean the survivors survived, Scott, which is tautological in the extreme. By the same absurd logic, all the smokers I meet are alive, even the other older ones… so much for smoking killing you.

      We also survived the Late Devonian Extinction.


    94. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      If you’re pasting a link into a comment, make sure you have a space immediately before and after it.

    95. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I think the ‘upper management’ have realised that kicking Cherry out of the party would do more harm than good.

      If she remained as an independent MP or joined Alba as their third MP, she would be unconstrained by the SNP rulebook, which she appears to be sticking to – at the moment.

      Her patience must be on a shoogly peg though.

    96. Breastplate says:

      David Mitchell on tax avoidance.

    97. Scott says:

      Hatuey says:
      4 October, 2021 at 8:02 pm

      You, of course, mean the survivors survived, Scott.

      Yeah, the entire ‘human race’. Wasn’t that obvious?

      Alive people not being dead isn’t a tautology.

      By your logic, all smokers should drop dead after their first fag.

      By the same logic, we didn’t survive any extinction event, because it was formulated and operated from Impulsiveland, Opposite World. The Universe. IDT INDT

    98. Hatuey says:

      I have no idea how you can say the entire human race survived when those that died didn’t.

      And I really doubt if you would say such things if you were dead.

    99. Dan says:

      @ Scot Finlayson at 6:19 pm

      Indeed, discussions on what residential status qualifies someone to vote on Scotland’s future is certainly where I have been coming from on this subject. And not at all to do with Scots born only getting to vote.
      Aye, tighter eligibility conditions no doubt involves exclusions, but allowing short term / transient students or workers temporarily residing in Scotland at the time of the vote, or allowing second home owners the option to determine Scotland’s future always seemed to me to be a bizarre situation.
      The other factor that enfranchising all these different groups of people is that it also creates the conditions for emotional wedges to come into play during the campaign to influence folk’s voting choices.
      EG. Groups of students from different parts of the UK form friendships during their years at a Scottish Uni, second home owners from down south get on well with their Scottish neighbours, both these scenarios can be leveraged on as Better Together clearly did.

      The trouble with the btl discussion on here has been that he who is always right has persistently attempted to polarise the discussion so that anybody suggesting deviation from the previous franchise is a blood & soil moonhowling natavist roaster.

      Andy has posted screeds of responses, which may to some have become rather repetitive and tedious, but by doing so for quite such a protracted period it has actually provoked ongoing thought and focus on the subject. And that ongoing discussion has over the past couple of days produced quite a lot of good stuff.
      This comment
      by Rev Stu’s over on the Fighting Bears blog post states:
      However, the idea that I’m advocating a free-for-all were there to be one is dishonest nonsense. The 2014 vote ALREADY HAD qualifying requirements for citizenship, residency etc. If you want to tweak those around the edges, do something about students and so on, no argument from me.

      And a couple of days ago Andy made this post on voting franchises used elsewhere which contains quite a lot reference to the term “Permanent Residence”

      I remarked twice on this permanent residence matter to stimulate further discussion, but uncharacteristically for such an enthusiastic poster, Andy did not respond…

      To me, the definition of what determines “residency” is the simple crux of the issue.

      Basics like a Scottish tax code, or passport / driving license, and car / house insurance declarations all confirming permanent residence of a voter at the same address as they are on the electoral roll could all be used to confirm or support what constitutes “Permanent Residence”.

    100. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Aye, tighter eligibility conditions no doubt involves exclusions, but allowing short term / transient students or workers temporarily residing in Scotland at the time of the vote, or allowing second home owners the option to determine Scotland’s future always seemed to me to be a bizarre situation.”


    101. Hatuey says:

      Well, I always assumed the eligibility criteria was set by the Electoral Commission and that it applied in the 2014 referendum pretty much as it applied everywhere else, except in respect of 16 and 17 year olds who were allowed to vote.

      Accordingly, I believed it was possible to be deemed resident in more than one home/constituency and thereby have votes in each.

      Am I completely wrong about that? If so, who do I blame for this bullshit?

    102. Hatuey says:

      Okay I just took one look at this document and now I feel sick.

      You know what… fuck it, let them have the oil. I refuse to read that junk.

    103. Scott says:


      You clearly don’t understand the meaning of my original words.

    104. Hatuey says:

      We are in agreement, Scott. 100%.

    105. Hatuey says:

      Facebook, instagram, and WhatsApp all down. Shares in Facebook have fallen by about 5%.

      I’m not sure how exactly but I’d be willing to bet that anti-vax moon howlers were involved.

      Let’s cross live to our Royal Correspondent for an update…

    106. Dan says:

      @ Rev Stu

      Re. Second Home owners getting to vote.
      Maybe not officially but the system is lax.
      It was made very difficult to check for issues during the 2014 Indyref. Iirc that electoral roll had 4.2 million on it and was immediately scrapped after the vote, and a complete new roll created for the 2015 May GE which had only 3.5 million, Obviously the different GE franchise explains some of the reduction.
      It was however impossible for the man in the street to cross check between the two rolls though because at a library you could only access excerpts of the current roll for a few areas at a time, and you had to know the specific polling area code the specific address you wanted to check was in. You could not copy any details for data protection reasons, just take basic notes, then as soon as the new roll was released you could no longer access to check the old one so you had no proof to escalate an issue.

      But you can witness examples when you know an area very well and have access to the electoral database.
      EG. Why would a second home owner from England at a property that definitely is not their permanent residence be included as a postal voter on a GE franchise?
      They should only be eligible for Local Authority Elections.
      I tried to flag this to a contact in SNP at the time but they couldn’t give a fuck.
      Now the individual might be calling the holiday home property their primary residence for personal tax reasons, but calling it their main residence for personal tax reasons is not the same as them actually living there and it being their permanent residence.

      The Electoral Commission changed their info page probably around 2015 on how to and who is responsible for monitoring for and reporting electoral fraud. Not unexpectedly making it more difficult for a private citizen to raise concerns.

      Political Parties have access to electoral roll databases and if they had any savvy they should be constantly analysing changes between updates like a hawk for various reasons.
      In the scheme of things second home voter fraud may not be that significant, but that aspect alone does not mean close scrutiny of the overall electoral roll should be neglected.

    107. Alf Baird says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell @ 9:14 pm


      With a local government/municipal residence-based franchise, if one registers as resident at an address, one gets a vote, no matter one’s nationality, or one’s national allegiance, nor indeed one’s primary residence if it be elsewhere. Such a fine scheme intended to diminish one’s naitional sovereignty, what!

    108. Mutters says:

      By the way these photos are really great. New career in wildlife photography?

    109. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “With a local government/municipal residence-based franchise, if one registers as resident at an address, one gets a vote, no matter one’s nationality, or one’s national allegiance, nor indeed one’s primary residence if it be elsewhere.”

      Not in the referendum.

    110. Grouse Beater says:

      “Not in the referendum.” Stuart Campbell 12.22am

      The sweeping statement was always Wing’s Achilles heel.

      Who was eligible to vote?

      Most people over the age of 16 who live in Scotland were eligible to vote. As with other UK elections, to get a vote you had to register in advance. Unlike other UK elections, 16 and 17 year olds were able to vote in the referendum.

    111. Alf Baird says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell @ 12:22 am

      “Not in the referendum.”

      Actually Yes it is: a LOCAL GOVERNMENT residence-based franchise was used in the Scottish NATIONAL referendum AND is also used in all Scottish NATIONAL elections for the Holyrood parliament.

      However this Scottish local government franchise is not used for UK ‘national’ elections or referendums – for these a British NATIONAL franchise is used.

    112. Robert Hughes says:

      Just one example of how eligibility was abused in the IndyRef – from personal experience ….

      An English couple – friends of mine – broke-up just before the Ref , the female ( remember them ? ! ) left Scotland and moved back to England but so Anti-Independence , despite no longer living here she came back to vote NO , which she was able to do still being on the electoral roll .

      Not sure of the legalities involved – having physically left Scotland was she still eligible to vote ? but morally , was it fair that she was able to vote against the interests of the majority of Scots who did vote for Independence ?

      There are a multitude of examples of how the rules were bent to favour the outcome against YES – pressure being exerted on employees of fiercely pro-Union estate owners and businesses for example

      BTW the man in the couple referred to also voted NO .

      Are these the kind of people we’re obliged to persuade to vote YES in any future IndyRef ?

      Good luck with that

    113. Tannadice Boy says:

      The continuing debate about Colonialism and the franchise is not welcome to me. Putting a million votes onto the Yes vote is the priority. Answers to questions raised by the public in 2014 that have not been adequately dealt with since, is the priority. Clear strategic and tactical leadership for the Yes movement is a priority and so on. I said before, we are going up the wrang dreel but because I am obviously colonised in my thinking. I will rephrase, we are going up a deadend old boy. (Spoken with an Edward Fox accent). Anybody else interested in winning a second referendum?

    114. Dan says:

      The wind is a bit calmer this morning so Scotland is currently exporting 2GW to England unlike the 5GW a day or so back.

      Alert readers will recall I highlighted the addition of the new Norway interconnect gauge on the GB Grid page a few months back. Link below, scroll to right to view the Euro gauges.
      Since then it has occasionally supplied power in what looked like a testing mode during the completions stage. It does however now appear to be settling into a more consistent mode of supplying power to England in a similar fashion to the other French, Dutch, and Nemo (Belgium) Euro connections.
      Checking the coloured traces for those connections on the box below the Euro gauges shows consistent importing of leccy to England. The solitary Green trace line showing power being “exported” from England is a connection to Ireland, but that leccy is basically just flowing through England rather than being created there.

    115. Robert Hughes says:

      Tannadice Boy

      To restate …… No one – to the best of my knowledge – is advocating a purely ethnic-based franchise for any future Ref ; assuming there ever is one .

      Like others , I’ve come to believe another Referendum is not the optimum route , but should that be only one on offer , no permission is required to hold one .

    116. Breeks says:

      People are still missing the distinction.

      A referendum on Independence, a Plebiscite, or simply a reaffirmation of Sovereignty, is a Constitutional matter, because it affects the status of the Scottish Nation, which in turn has ramifications for other Nations… By definition, it is international, a resolution between nations.

      If you hold the same referendum, plebiscite, reaffirmation of sovereignty as a matter of Domestic Governance, it is a matter internal to the UK, and opens the door for Westminster, our rogue sovereign pretender, to assert clauses and conditions such as Section 30 of the Scotland Act, in fact the whole Scotland Act, which is nothing but a colonial bridgehead.

      The franchise is profoundly different between a Constitutional vote and a Domestic one.

      A Constitutional Vote in Scotland should properly be restricted to Scottish Nationals alone, and the franchise for holding such a vote should not be confused with a domestic franchise, which many people are currently doing.

      Think about it… Why are you extending a vote on the Constitutional integrity of Scotland to foreign nationals? And don’t be queasy about the term foreign nationals, because that’s what people not born in Scotland are.. their nationality is NOT Scottish.

      By all means, for internal matters relating to the running of Scotland, have your domestic voters franchise as liberal and inclusive as you like,.. give people’s pets the right to vote if you want, – it doesn’t affect the integrity of the nation. It’s domestic, internal, and has no impact abroad.

      This all goes back to my personal bugbear that Scotland needs to sit down, do it’s homework, and establish beyond all ambiguity what Scotland’s Constitutional status actually is, how that status has been compromised by the Treaty of Union, whether that compromising of Scotland’s Constitutional integrity is actually lawful or an act of colonial insurrection, and what Scotland physically needs to do to resurrect it’s rightful status as a sovereign Nation, end the Treaty of Union, and secure International Recognition for Scotland’s Sovereign Integrity.

      I’m sorry, but to sit debating the domestic voters franchise on a hypothetical referendum which Westminster proposes to veto, simply screams out loud you have already missed a whole cascade of constitutional points of order, have yet to grasp what sovereignty actually means, and you have essentially forfeited Scotland’s Constitutional rights already.

      Scotland MUST go back to basics, purge it’s Constitutional status of all UK and Westminster colonial encroachment and bogus unwritten conventions, and define itself from first principles so the critical path to Scottish Independence is 100% understood by all parties.

      I’ve said it before, but the first Nation which needs to recognise Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty is Scotland itself.

      Such is the weight of colonial ballast designed obfuscate that fundamental reality, that maintaining that belief will feel like an act of blind faith rather than reality, but Scotland IS a Sovereign Nation. That fact is reaffirmed in all kinds of ways, from The Claim of Right to the mere existence of Scots Law, but the UK sophistry quickly rears it’s head as soon as ambiguity can be introduced, and Scots are thus indoctrinated to believe their sovereignty is unique amongst sovereignties, and that Westminster commands it.

      What a wonder to science Scotland really is… oil without the revenue, and Sovereignty without the power. You’d think after 300 years of this shit, Scotland would at least begin to recognise the pattern…

    117. Hatuey says:

      On the specific question of second homes and eligibility to vote in 2014, I’m no clearer.

      In the old days we simply did a show of hands. It worked fine until arms dealers like Burke and Hare came along ?

      I’m an optimist though — I believe that life in Scotland is going to get so bad that the people will eventually wake up.

      If there is hope, it lies in the proles…

      Oh fuck.

    118. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Robert Hughes 9:17pm
      I didn’t have to look very far. Further up this page. Breeks 3 October 2021 7:49pm.
      “When the Scottish people, that is, Scottish Nationals want to hold a Constitutional Referendum, NOBODY besides Scottish Nationals get included in the franchise”
      His definition of Scottish Nationals, “only Scottish Nationals, those people physically born in Scotland..”
      In terms of winning a second Independence Referendum. I feel like Tigger, I’m the only one.

    119. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Breeks.

      Just picked this up from Twitter.

      Makes interesting reading. The Law Society of Scotland web site, 2007.
      “On the 300th anniversary of the 1707 Union, an argument that its legal basis is often misunderstood and that its reconsideration would be far from simple”

    120. crazycat says:

      @ Dan at 10.59

      [the 2014] electoral roll had 4.2 million on it and was immediately scrapped after the vote, and a complete new roll created for the 2015 May GE which had only 3.5 million, Obviously the different GE franchise explains some of the reduction.

      The electoral roll is replaced every year. This used to happen in February; I’m not sure whether that is still the case.

      It also used (a long time ago) to be the case that registration could not be changed during a year; nowadays a person who moves house can transfer his/her registration straight away.

      The big change that occurred when the 2014 roll was replaced by the 2015 one was the introduction of Individual Voter Registration. That had already been introduced in England and Wales during 2014, but delayed in Scotland because of the referendum. It was predicted that this would reduce the number of registered electors (though you are of course right to point out that the GE had a more restricted franchise) because people might not realize they were no longer being registered by the head of household but had to make their own applications.

    121. James Che. says:


      Thank goodness there is someone else that recognises what sovereignty actually is and means,
      And be able to distinguish our actual position, from the other and how important is Scottish constitution,

      Our sovereign right as the only other signatory to the treaty of the union should be enough to have explained the situation,

      You have been more eloquent in the explainable,
      There is a difference in voting franchises, internal domestic voting, and uk elections.

      If we have to ask permission from England for the Scots to have a vote in Scotland on the right to self determination, on the claim of right, we literally are throwing our sovereignty away like a game of catch ball.

      We are a colonised country, if we have to ask
      We are sovereign people if we act ourselves.

      Without doubt you unravel this better than I.

    122. Ottomanboi says:

      The demographic quandary.
      Scotland has an ageing population. People of my post millennial generation are not interested in the tiresome and dull politics dished up by any of the political parties. Also, few seem in my estimation personally self-reliant enough to understand the meaning of the term «independence» let alone the terms «nation» and «culture».
      Their ignorance of the outside world beyond that of anglo saxon digital media is alarming.
      That only leaves «the old» who mostly care about mortgages, pensions, health, security and safety. The generation that drives the fear in Covid culture.
      Not much «change» will come from that demographic either. .
      So as you sow etc.
      Also suspect that the populace is grown tired of the decades of independence chatter which has become mere soporific white noise.
      Sometimes it takes a discomfiting seismic shock to the entire system to snap people out of their slumber and that takes a deal of imagination and daring; not exactly the Zeitgeist in 2021.

    123. DJ says:

      Breeks, you sum it all up precisely. But where are the leaders to take us to the promised land? Nowhere. They are too busy enriching themselves with the percs of Westminster power and privilege. And you know what? The majority of Scots don’t give a damn. Pathetic. Even cowardly.

    124. Graf Midgehunter says:

      I don’t want a referendum. Full stop.

      When AS fought for and gained an SNP majority to govern Scotland, being a real LEADER he saw an opportunity to free Scotland from the English chains. So it was, let’s have a referendum..!

      WM at that time never thought that the Scots would ever get near voting YES. Cocky, arrogant Davie Cam, went along with the play line until the last few weeks before the date, when they then fully realised, the northern ba**ards are gonna pull it off.

      The rest with the VOW and you‘re our pals is history.

      Under the circumstances at the time it was a bold move by AS, it was a demonstration of what Scotland could do when it has a leader who knows what leadership means.

      A referendum now with a fully wake WM would end up playing by English rules in the English system, it’s a stable wide, open door for WM and their best pals in the MSM to obfuscate, rig and steer it to the WM required result.

      Alternatively, does anyone here still think the SNP with the Sturgeon cabal will go anywhere near one.

      NO is a certainty in advance and I see no reason whatsoever why we should grovel on our hands an‘ knees to beg for what is our birthright.

      We’re in a blind alley to nowhere and as long as we are „citizens“ of the UK, all this talk about who gets to vote in a referendum, whether ethnicity, settlers, Scottish citizens etc. is just cobblers.

      It’s just keeping the great unwashed busy and away from the real question, which is Sovereignty of the people.

      Are we or are we not Sovereign?

      Bannockburn, the Declaration of Rights, Claim of Rights, education, Scottish Law etc. supports our Sovereignty. It was a recognised international fact.

      In 1707, the infamous „Gallery of Rogues“ sold off the country but they didn’t and couldn’t sell off its Sovereignty.

      The crux of our problem is that we do not have a leader/leadership/Government which recognises this very fact and thus uses it as a basis for asserting ourselves in this so called Union.

      On the 30 Jan. 2020, the WM Government dragged Scotland against its clearly outspoken will out of the European Union. It was a crystal clear and blatant breach of the Treaty of Union.

      The Scottish Government, as the representatives of the sovereign Scottish people, should have terminated with immediate effect (3months notice?) the T.o.U.

      No fkn referendum, no begging bowl from tubby Ian Blowhard.

      IOW, Sovereignty is there but no one to wield the sword.

    125. James Che. says:

      Brian doonthetoon.


      I had read this law society article two years ago,
      If you go back to my comments over the previous year and the beginning of this year,
      You will find that I was of the opinion that the treaty of the union was the biggest scam on Scottish people in history by England’s parliament and monarchy and a few merchants and land owners. Including the churches.

      This treaty has loop holes the size of Great Britain itself.

    126. Robert Hughes says:

      Breeks @ 9.32

      I understand and agree with your distinction between a Domestic and Constitutional voter franchise

      However , pragmatically , ( much as I’m beginning to dread the prospect under Sturgeon ) a Referendum is – marginally – more likely than any of our putative leaders adopting the approach you advocate . Has even Alex Salmond indicated he would do so ? If he has I stand corrected

    127. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Robert Hughes 1:17pm
      Marginally?. From the SNP Road map published in January 2021. “A referendum must be beyond legal challenge to ensure legitimacy and acceptance here and abroad”
      A referendum is the only game in town. The mandate has been established. A draft section 30 is sitting waiting. The UK Government has implicitly agreed to another Referendum by arguing now is not the time. I would support your view that if Sturgeon leads a 2nd IndyRef we probably won’t win. However we should be developing our case independently of the SNP. She will go at some point and we should be ready.

    128. Grouse Beater says:

      Referenda Franchise Flawed – What About the Question?

      Ready contributions here and other sites on how best to organise the franchise for the next referendum, there is general agreement the next – should it ever appear – must be better thought through.

      Just as important is the question on the ballot paper.

      Social scientists agree the most *neutral* question is the one used in 2014: “Should Scotland be an independent country? Yes or No?” (It omitted independent ‘again’.)

      But was it the best question to ask?

      According to research, had it asked: “Do you agree Scotland should be independent? Yes or No? – Salmond’s first choice in 2014 – Yes would have topped 50%.

      Now, there’s a thought.

    129. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Grousebeater.

      I was just about to post this comment but refreshed the page first and saw yours.

      There’s a quote in the article from Pamela Nash, chief executive of the anti-independence Scotland in Union group, which I just have to correct for her. She said,

      “The people of Scotland don’t want another divisive referendum any time soon and the SNP should drop its constitutional obsession and focus on what really matters to people.”

      What she should have said, to be factual, was

      “The people of Scotland want another referendum soon and the SNP should drop its obsession with gender self-ID and focus on what really matters to people, like independence.”

      No thanks required…

      Academics find choice of Indyref2 question could ‘change the course of a nation’s history’

    130. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “What she should have said, to be factual, was

      “The people of Scotland want another referendum soon”

      Well, the actual reality is that about half of the people want another referendum and half of them don’t. As Angus MacNeil perceptively noted, if you take the number of people who say they want one in 2-5 years, and then ask the question again 2-5 years later, you get pretty much the same number saying they want one in 2-5 years.

    131. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Aye, Rev Stu.

      Nowt as queer as fowk…

    132. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says: at 2:50 pm

      Aye, Rev Stu.

      Nowt as queer as fowk…
      The SNP is stuffed full of queer fowk who are transing to weird.. 🙁

    133. What would happen if an MP of any party put down a motion to abolish the Lords.

    134. wull says:

      Graf Midgehunter says:
      5 October, 2021 at 12:32 pm

      When AS fought for and gained an SNP majority to govern Scotland, being a real LEADER he saw an opportunity to free Scotland from the English chains. So it was, let’s have a referendum..!

      Allow me to differ, Graf. I may be wrong, but I don’t think that is a correct interpretation of what happened. I don’t think it was an ‘opportunist’ move on the part of AS.

      Let me rephrase your statement to make it more in accordance with what really led AS to call the referendum. According to my perception and/or memory, I think it was this:

      When AS fought for and gained an SNP majority to govern Scotland, he was delighted but also as surprised as anyone else with the result. He had promised in his manifesto that there would be a referendum on Scottish independence if the SNP gained a majority at the Holyrood election. Being a man of his word, he therefore knew right away that he would have to fulfil that promise. He had not expected the majority, and he did not at first believe that he stood any real chance of winning such a referendum, but he would have to try. The way the polls were at the time of his election victory, the chances of a pro-independence majority in the referendum were very low indeed. Among the few things in his favour were i) the fact that he could pretty much determine the timing of the referendum (although it did have to take place within the new term of the Holyrood parliament) and, ii) if Cameron refused it, the British state would obviously be acting undemocratically and this would annoy the Scottish public and bolster support for the independence cause. AS played his cards – which were few, and poor – extremely carefully and very well. But it was only half-way through the campaign, or in its later stages, that he really began to believe that he could actually win it. Always a betting man, he knew from the beginning that gaining the victory was very much a long shot, but circumstances meant he had to be up for it, and the remarkable thing is that he very nearly gained the day against all the odds.

      He also knew that the enormous swell in pro-independence numbers during the campaign was not due to him alone, or to his SNP, but to many others as well, including, by no means least, Stuart Campbell personally and his Wings website. My view is that AS was bounced into the referendum by his own success in the 2011 election. He had not expected that. I suspect in the run-up to that 2011 election his own expectation would have been to get a good enough result to remain in power between 2011 and 2016, but without an overall majority. He would then have governed in such a way over these 5 years in such a way as to grow support for independence considerably, in view of repeating the referendum promise in the 2016 election. He would then have gone on to win both the 2016 Holyrood election and the subsequent referendum. In which case Scotland would already have been an independent country since – let’s say – 2018.

      It wasn’t just a gung-ho ‘let’s have a referendum..!’ on his part, as you suggest. AS was and is a much more canny and savvy – and realistic – political operator than that. Although he did a magnificent job in growing the pro-independence vote between 2011 and 2014 (with the help of many friends, and even of the mistakes made by many foes), the truth is that the referendum had come just a little bit too soon for him, and for all of us.

      If he resigned in the aftermath of the referendum result, it was because politically he was always an honest and honourable man, a quality that is – alas – extremely rare in modern politics. With AS, he always did what he said he would do. Even when it was not always to his own advantage. Indeed, even when he had to change a policy for the sake of the credibility of the cause (and of his Party), not only at home but also internationally, he always did it up front, in full public view, and in full accord with and respect for the norms and procedures that were incumbent upon him.

      The one clear-as-daylight example of this is when he had to change the SNP standpoint in regard to NATO. He also fully respected the decision of the two SNP MSP’s who in conscience could not go along with that change and resigned the SNP whip. He knew that they too were acting honourably, and he said so, and thanked them for everything they had done for the SNP cause over the years.

      Compare that to the trashing and smearing, and lying and vicious and underhand vindictiveness that has been going on in the treatment of other people under his successor. Even, indeed especially, in the treatment of highly committed pro-independence supporting people. And in a fashion that is more and more brazen, and growing exponentially.

      Frankly, it beggars belief. How people cannot or will not see through it almost makes you despair. I have Unionist friends who never liked Alex Salmond (I am putting it mildly) but who watched the Holyrood stitch-up, and were absolutely aghast by the way he was fitted up and by the torrent of lies and corruption that poured out of some well-known mouths.

    135. The Facebook shutdown just shows how reliant some people are on them .It was World wide Might be time to break Facebook up. Having said that I dont know anyone who even noticed I only saw it on the BBC news.

    136. Brent crude at $81.26,

      1,000,000 barrels being lifted from Scotland`s waters evey day,

      that`s $81,260,000 today, of our national inheritance, going down south while we have foodbanks.

    137. Graf Midgehunter says:

      wull says: at 3:43 pm

      Graf Midgehunter says: at 12:32 pm


      You’re perfectly correct with the real story line as apposed to my minimalist, write it down quick before I wander on to the real thrust of my comment which was to get away from a referendum and start using our Sovereignty as the main weapon that we have. 🙂

      You did write it much better than I ever could..! 😉

    138. Robert Hughes says:

      Tannadice Boy @ 1.48

      I meant ” marginally ” as in the chance of ANY serious effort to progress our cause is marginal under the present regime .

      In turn , I agree with you that we should be building the case despite Sturgeon’s prevarications .

      The problem , as I’m sure you’re aware , is getting through the paralysis NSNP have brought about to reach the ” ordinary ” Independence supporters who only read The National and hear the Tourettes-like repetitions of the Tectonic Platonists : ” What the prisoners see and hear are shadows and echoes cast by objects that they do not see “

    139. Breastplate says:

      If we’re supposed to live in a democracy then we should be obligated to listen to the democratic Will of the People.
      Right now, we have some of the populace openly saying they want to block everyone and anyone from hearing what the democratic will of the People actually is.

      It seems to me, that the people who want to silence Scotland’s voice should be given no credence whatsoever.
      And a boot up the arse.

    140. wull says:

      By the way, Graf, I do agree with many (not quite all, but many) of the other points you make in your post.

      The reason the UK, as invented in 1707, has never been able to have a written constitution is because there are actually two different and quite distinct constitutions operating within it. Nobody wants to face up to this fact sufficiently to spell it out in writing. In fact, if it had to be written down, it would give the game away. The very English game, that is.

      The English want to believe that the English constitution bears sway over the whole of the UK (or English-and-Welsh constitution insofar as – disputably and controversially [and I don’t really want to support it] – insofar as Edward I and especially Henry VIII succeeded in incorporating Wales into England), when in fact it doesn’t. It also pretends to the whole world that such is the case, when in fact it isn’t.

      The English constitution is the one that says that the monarch, more precisely (when you strip away the legal fiction) the-monarch-in-parliament is sovereign over the people. Which, insofar as the monarch;s function is to be a rubber-stamp, means the parliament bears sway over the people, and the people are subject to it (and ultimately, thus, of the monarch). They are essentially subjects, subjected to ‘the crown’.

      The Scottish constitution is the one that says the people are sovereign. Yes, Scotland is still a monarchy, but Scottish kings 9and queens) are essentially elective, even when a hereditary element is allowed to play a part in their election or selection. This was probably always the case in practice, and it has certainly been absolutely and legally explicit, as the Scots’ basic (indeed foundational) constitutional principle, since Robert Bruce was brought to the throne. His is the key reign which transformed the principle from an unwritten assumption into something explicit, something which was legally set out and written down, and cannot be controverted.

      For those who continue (quite irrationally!) to doubt this, I’ll prove it beyond all doubt one day. Or, if I don’t, someone else will.

      The sovereignty of the Scottish people has been repeated again and again in the course of Scottish history, and was even recently endorsed by Westminster.

      These two constitutions – the one that ‘constitutes’ England as a political entity and the one that (likewise, but in a distinct and clearly different way) constitutes Scotland – are in fact radically incompatible. That is why they cannot be written down in a single constitutional document.Such a document would have to make the difference explicit, and open to view, and the English – or, more particularly, the English establishment – do not under any circumstances want that to happen.

      If it were to happen it might unwind some of the wool that has been applied to the eyes of their own English ‘subjects’, thus undoing the film with which the English establishment has blinded them to the way they are actually governed (not to say to the way they have actually ‘subject-ed’ them). That includes swallowing up the leaders of every movement that threatened to liberate people from their blindness and expose the truth of what is actually going on, by incorporating its leaders ever so subtly, but rapidly, into their own shabby little feather-nested, get-rich-quick, club.

      The sad thing is that, ever since the Union, so many Scots have fallen for the same trap. Scots who started out well, but ended up being self-servers rather than servants of Scotland. If, today, the most pitiful of these sell-out toady creatures are to be found slithering around in the upper ranks of the bloated SNP, they unfortunately stand in a long (and entirely dishonourable, unworthy and shameful) line of ‘tradition’.

      They existed even in Bruce’s day – those for whom their lands on both sides of the border were more important to them than the liberty and freedom of the Scottish people. Robert Bruce was very definitely NOT one of them. He sacrificed all his lands in England for the Scottish cause, and quite deliberately so. He very much wanted others to do the same, and tried his best that this would happen. Circumstances did not allow it, however. If he had had his way, the course of Scottish history would have been quite different, without the complications of self-servers with interests, self-interests, especially financial ones, on both sides of the border. Interests which were more important to them than the good and well-being pof their fellow Scots.

    141. Breastplate says:

      I agree with what you say, except for the referendum coming too soon. I believe it didn’t come soon enough or that we didn’t have more of them.

      This nonsense about having a referendum once in a blue moon is mind numbing stupidity on behalf of the voting public.
      It suits the politicians just fine though because those charlatans would quite happily pick up their wages without any elections of any sort if they could get away with it.

      There is no reason why we can’t have a referendum as often as is practicable.

    142. Pixywine says:

      Prepare to be entertained.

    143. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Robert Hughes 4:21pm
      We would appear to be in agreement. What we need is leadership of the Independence movement. During the last campaign for Independence, all sorts of groups supporting Independence sprung up out of nowhere. Example ‘Arabs for Indy’ (football reference). I wore their badge and give them a donation. I think the same phenomenon will happen again. But the movement is fractured and in stasis because of the lack of leadership. We also need to build a better case. I don’t want to stand on the street again and be asked about the currency etc. There is one person stopping a credible referendum and it ain’t Boris Johnson.

    144. Scott says:

      Pixywine says:
      5 October, 2021 at 4:59 pm

      Prepare to be entertained.

      Yeah, watching folk who can’t get their hole filming themselves talking is sooooo entertaining.

      What’s more effective, the written word (eg THIS site) or some cunt rambling on and on to make NO POINT WHATSOEVER?

    145. twathater says:

      @ Breeks and Wull when things are put into normal layman’s terms situations and the bastardising of those situations become clearer less obscured and the deliberate obfuscation also becomes more apparent

      Breeks has highlighted on many occasions why our constitution IS our pathway to independence and like wull has elaborated in detail why there is NO UK written constitution THEY CANNOT COMBINE THE 2 INDIVIDUAL CONSTITUTIONS THEY ARE UNCOMPATABLE, either Scots would have to give up their sovereignty or Lizzy and WM would have to give up theirs

      NOW comes the hard question ” if common or garden laymen (sorry breeks and wull” can understand this obfuscation WHY are our government with many who BOAST of their legal prowess and our learned professionals deliberately ignoring this anomaly and a path to independence

      I have stated numerous times that I cannot understand why Joanna Cherry a renowned and respected QC MP although maybe not a constitutional expert , does NOT investigate and challenge this route to resiling the TOU

    146. Hugh Jarse says:

      Easy answer there twathater, she can’t.
      You play the party line, more or less.
      Or else.

    147. Pixywine says:

      Scott. The guy has a good looking girlfriend. That is a Mark 1 Woman.

    148. Pixywine says:

      Scott. Thanks for reposting the link. You’re most helpful.

    149. Scott says:

      Pixywine says:
      5 October, 2021 at 6:07 pm

      Scott. Thanks for reposting the link. You’re most helpful.


      It’d be easy to take that as an implication that you get paid to promote these videos.

      1. Post a video with any accompanying comment being, in effect, “watch this”. (In the same way that you post links with fuck all comment…)

      2. Claim you’re only the messenger when asked ‘what’s your point, caller?’

      I think you’re a narsehole and a nidiot.

    150. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tannadice Boy 5.00 pm

      Seems to me the movement now isn’t the same as the movement in 2012-14? I’m sure when (if?) there is another indyref campaign a lot of interest groups will spring up just like last time. As to leadership, I was never that impressed with the one dimensional happy-clappy relentlessly positive focus of Yes Scotland. It had it’s place no doubt, and I’m even inclined to agree with the likes of Susan Stewart that the positivity played well to certain demographics.

      As you rightly point out though, the campaign failed to get the message across on issues like currency, EU membership, “the financial black hole” etc, and always seemed to me to be on the back foot. There’s a place for negative / attack campaigns, as well as for positive / “let’s have a group hug” campaigning. Despite the growth in the Yes vote, I don’t think Yes Scotland laid a glove on Project Fear’s doom laden “the sky will fall” playbook throughout the campaign.

      Like many, ‘m not convinced there is going to be another referendum any time soon. Perhaps a campaign for plebiscitary elections would be different, but given the atomisation of the #indyref1 broad church, I’m not sure what form it will take.

      Perhaps it will take some crisis (whether within the SNP or externally due to brexit?) before the scales fall from the eyes of all the Nicola cultists. At the moment we can but hope.

    151. Robert graham says:


      Scott fantasies about you for some reason maybe it’s a fettish thing ,is it a job requirement because he or she seems to spend a unnatural amount of time following you ,Now you have your very own Stalker aren’t you lucky eh .

    152. Scott says:

      Robert graham says:
      5 October, 2021 at 6:55 pm

      I’ve replied directly to the whiner on only 2 or 3 occasions.

      If someone directs a comment at me, I’ll nearly always respond.

      You also are a narsehole and a nidiot.

    153. Clavie Cheil says:

      I now live in a village where the predominant accents are English and their voting intentions are predominately “No”. At the last count there were 15 holiday homes empty for most of the year and all of them were on the voters roll. There were another 8 airbnb homes on top of that owned by 8 absentee owners, all on the voters roll. Out of a grand total of some 33 individuals, 30 of them are No voting Tories or Kippers.

      I also live in Nation where the SNP are now infiltrated to its roots by Transgenderists and pussy whipped men who hate Scotland and the very concept of Independence with a passion.

      I am not going to see an Independent Scotland in my lifetime as long as the tractor Sturgeon is FM and she is propped up by a coven of man haters. Nor are we going to be Independent when absentee property owners for one are allowed on the voters roll. There will be thousands of them coming now that they cant so easily carry their poison to the EU. They will be used to balkanize Scotland if we ever get another Referendum. The swamping of Scotland has already begun.

    154. wull says:

      Clavie Chiel @ 7,51 pm. I absolutely see the logic of all your points. Everything you say is indeed well under way, under our very noses. However, rather than despair, these points are the very reason why we must not give up. Instead, we have to work and act with greater urgency and intensity than ever. That includes ousting the present perfidious incumbents – these seat-warmers and pocket-fillers – pretending to govern in Holyrood and filling in their bloated expenses claims at Westminster.

      Breastplate @ 4.42 I absolutely agree with you that ‘there is no reason why we can’t have a referendum as often as is practicable.’ What I said about the 2014 referendum coming too soon was not opposed to that fact, but simply in regard to our chances of winning it.

      If AS had not been obliged to hold the referendum during his 2011-2016 mandate, but had won his majority in 2016 instead, I think he would almost certainly have gone on to win independence for Scotland in 2017 or 2018. Moreover, with a very decent, even substantial majority.

      While it is true that there is not, and never should be, any legal or other obstacle to holding a referendum at any time whatsoever, it seems self-evident that if you are intent on winning one you need to choose the moment for it as prudently and carefully as you can. Timing is important in politics: there are moments that are propitious for some given thing, and moments that are not, or which are only less so.

    155. Southernbystander says:

      There’ll be (even) more English coming to Scotland if independence ever happens. Opening the franchise to the whole of the UK would probably secure a Yes vote these days. Never happen obvs.

      The real problem, that does not need saying, is that not enough Scots want independence. The evidence that ‘native Scots’ actually voted 53% Yes in 2014 is slim and flimsy and clutching at straws basically (and in fact now withdrawn from the uni site it was on – try finding the actual evidence / study and not just the report in some tabloid). And no amount of ‘colonised mind’ explanation will change that either, ‘cos it’s bollocks dressed up in fake academic clothing.

      People generally know their own mind and to say they don’t is arrogant. Their minds need changing with solid policy plans and a campaigning to promote them i.e. proper work that the SNP seem incapable of and people on here have zero interest in.

    156. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Clavie Cheil.

      You typed,
      “I am not going to see an Independent Scotland in my lifetime as long as the tractor Sturgeon is FM and she is propped up by a coven of man haters.”

      Not just “man haters”, Clavie Cheil.

      Her coven also hate women who refuse to bow to their cultist psalm book. Blackman, an SNP MP, retweeting that Cherry, a fellow SNP MP, should be expelled from the party? And no disciplinary action against her? Dissing a fellow MP? Crap condoned by the leadership.

      I’m glad I got out of that toxic party.

    157. Hugh Jarse says:

      Don’t bite ^

    158. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Clavie Cheil 7.51: coincidentally, I’m just back from a break on a Scottish island, staying with old friends who own a B&B.

      Recently, incomers have proposed a buy-out of the township there so that they can sell off the common grazing to enable lucrative “development”, which would, of course, mean the building of more housing quite beyond the wallets of local people and would in turn increase immigration to the fragile culture and economy of the island. For the many locals who have sheep and cattle who need this ancestral pasture, this would be a disaster, of course.

      The proposal was narrowly defeated by the indigenous, historical population (could they be termed “nativists”?) but it will probably only be a matter of time before further incomers tip the balance in a future vote.

      As Confused, I think, said somewhere up thread, these predominately English people are the real blood and soil types, quite beyond persuasion by the articulation of coherent arguments for independence (even presuming that that were possible given the almost completely opposition of the MSM to independence) and people who are extremely unlikely to vote Yes in any putative future referendum. I am convinced of this, having met a few of these sharp-elbowed, materialistic folk, who seem to think living there should be like dwelling in an outpost of the Home Counties.

      Any idea that such people will ever be open to reasoned argument in sufficient numbers to swing a referendum is simply unfounded, bearing in mind that in 2014 70% of the 400,000 English voters were Noes.

    159. Hugh Jarse says:

      Maybe we should have a rrreferendum clause.
      If ye canna roll yer arrrs, you’re voided.

    160. Hatuey says:

      The biggest problem isn’t the franchise. It isn’t the question. It isn’t Boris, refusal of a section 30, or even Nicola.

      The biggest problem is media access. Alba and everybody else should devote themselves to cracking that nut alone. Everything follows from that.

      Since we can’t force the BBC etc. to provide airtime or discuss things honestly, we need an alternative strategy. Technology-wise, I don’t think there’s ever been a better time to bypass the MSM.

      I have no idea why platforms like YouTube aren’t being used better for this stuff.

      You could literally build and run a global news agency from a mobile phone and broadcast to just about everybody on the planet free of charge…

      Unless something is done on this front, giving Alba and other pro-Indy voices a real platform, we are just a bunch of morons with a crap hobby.

    161. Andy Ellis says:

      @Clavie Chiel 7.51 pm

      “The swamping of Scotland has already begun.”

      @Southernbystander 8.26 pm

      “The real problem, that does not need saying, is that not enough Scots want independence. The evidence that ‘native Scots’ actually voted 53% Yes in 2014 is slim and flimsy and clutching at straws basically”

      OK, folks….let’s just talk numbers. No to-ing and fro-ing, it’s beyond obvious now in here that it’s just not worth trying to change entrenched positions in here on this particular issue. But somewhere out there the data exists about whether Clavie or Southernbystander’s take on this is right, doesn’t it?

      1) 4.28 million registered voters May 2021 elections.
      2) 4.28 million registered voters for 2014 indyref.
      3) 3.62 million votes cast in indyref1 (85% turnout).
      4) Scots born electors…? 83%?
      5) 157,400 foreign nationals registered to vote (Dec. 2020) – excludes Irish and Commonwealth citizens.
      6) 2011 Census (yeah..I know…the figures will be updated soon…)
      4.9 million people in Scotland born in the UK (93.4%).
      4.4 million 83.3% of all Scots born in Scotland.
      459,000 born in England
      369,000 people born outside UK.
      7) How de we know the net figure over a number of years of those who leave, against those who enter, and how do we know what way any net gain will vote?

      So…imminent swamping?
      Swamping over [X] years?
      Manageable numbers that should be easily outweighed by any reasonable campaign/decent pro indy campaign?

    162. Dan says:

      Let the sowing of the seeds to grow carrots to dangle for a “Meaningful” Mandate begin…

    163. Hugh Jarse says:

      It’s the narrative that you need to influence H, words are power.
      Sovereign is a good one.
      Agency another.

      Fear, fact not fabrication, spake in the right way, with a convincing solution provided, is a winning tool.
      You do remember Project Fear
      In another reality, it would be a dawdle for a well funded, msm friendly party to dethrone She/Her.
      She has provided more than enough Flo job type ammunition. GRA, the Cult, ‘Hate’fucking crime, dirty deeds…
      A dawdle!

    164. Dan says:

      UK citizens’ priorities…

      Tories gonna be changing the Human Rights Act, yet it’s fucking Holby City and cunting Bake Off that are trending…
      Aye, who needs rights when you can melt yer napper watching inane utter shite on the telly…

    165. Robert graham says:

      Apparently this SNP Government has spent £ 600.000 on a Domestic Identity APP who’s purpose is frankly baffling ,

      Does this in any way protect the public from the Plague ?

      Can the bug read a QR Code ?

      I would urge everyone to email their SMP MSP and ask them to explain why they are spending your money on a useless piece of government surveillance that will never be withdrawn and has no benefit to the health of the public

      Now £600.000 quid where have I seen that figure mentioned before ? I wonder slight of hand ?

    166. Hugh Jarse says:

      And if it’s Fear you want to utilise, victory being the goal, punting the idea of total assimilation, in short order, becoming nothing more than a cheek on the Little Satan’s (hi RoS) arse…the end of Scotland as a nation.
      Nothing left but a half empty shortbread tin.
      Englands lebensraum.

      Or autonomy. As part of Europe.
      Ie take yer pick, but take too long to decide, and you’ll lose the choice.

    167. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dan: the

      Covert Human Intelligence Bill

      Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

      Online Safety Bill

      Counter State Threats Bill

      which are all likely to be enacted during this parliament (will establishment tool Starmer oppose them in any way?) will effectively indemnify state agents from prosecution for illegal acts, make demonstrations almost impossible, shut down sites such as this and criminalise whistleblowers and anyone deemed to be an enemy of the state, all under cover of the Covid emergency and its emergency legislation.

      Och, don’t worry, it’ll be fine……

    168. Jamie says:

      I am curious, what words in my comments are making them await moderation?

    169. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Tinto Chiel says: at 8:56 pm

      @Clavie Cheil 7.51:

      “As Confused, I think, said somewhere up thread, these predominately English people are the real blood and soil types, quite beyond persuasion by the articulation of coherent arguments for independence (even presuming that that were possible given the almost completely opposition of the MSM to independence) and people who are extremely unlikely to vote Yes in any putative future referendum. I am convinced of this, having met a few of these sharp-elbowed, materialistic folk, who seem to think living there should be like dwelling in an outpost of the Home Counties.

      Any idea that such people will ever be open to reasoned argument in sufficient numbers to swing a referendum is simply unfounded, bearing in mind that in 2014 70% of the 400,000 English voters were Noes.”
      This is a perfect reason and example of why a referendum is doomed to fail.

      Scotland has been and is still being open to be plundered. Even if Scotland was not technically a colony, it is now being very rapidly colonised by a population which is 10 times larger than we are. Scotland is half empty, property is relative to England cheap, we’ve top services, fresh water, etc. etc..

      We can’t allow ourselves to be marginalised any further by big elbows from down south.

      There is a threshold after which we’ll never be able to have enough people to vote for our independence.

      No referendum – a plebiscite or the constitutional way and time is rapidly running out.

      England is in the middle of the takeover of Scotland.

    170. Dan says:

      @ Tinto

      Ach, will ye nae quit it wi postin’ aw that boring trivial buzz kill stuff. I’ve got a totes semi watching someone on the telly trying to make a basa fish and chocolate meringue quiche served with a deconstructed onion ring and a strawberry coulis dip.

      @ Jamie

      The word 5ett1er5 will get yer post held in moderation.

    171. Jamie says:

      Graf midgehunter, I would not say Scotland is half empty in terms of available property. There is a massive housing shortage but there is a massive amount of land for sale that can have houses built on them.

      Interestingly the land prices have increased 5x in the past two years as it was something I was tracking as I was previously interested in buying land and building a house until that happened now plots of land just a few years ago that were 20k are now 100k. Presumably land banking from wealthy elites.

      I imagine though that most people who move to Scotland from down south are buying regular properties that are up for sale though. I don’t think the numbers coming up will increase the No vote a lot more than it already is. It is already substantial 400k so 2 or 3k every ten years is probably not going to do too much damage.

      However, the franchise ideally needs sorted as 400k is still a lot.

      Dan, if 5ett1er5 is going to cause it then I imagine one or two others I used might too. The german word and the slang for Scot in England probably too?

    172. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Jamie says: at 12:33 am

      Graf midgehunter, I would not say Scotland is half empty in terms of available property. There is a massive housing shortage but there is a massive amount of land for sale that can have houses built on them.
      As long as they keep their hands off and away from Culloden I’ll be happy enough.

    173. Hatuey says:

      Jamie; “I am curious, what words in my comments are making them await moderation?”

      Could be attitude or tone, squire… Try saying things in a more jolly fashion.

      Either that or you touched on one of the 657 thousand subjects that ScotGov transformed into legal minefields.

      Reality is strictly off-limits.

    174. John Main says:


      “2 or 3k every ten years”

      You’re avin a larf.

      More like 2 or 3k every ten weeks.

    175. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis 9:58 pm

      Some good points there Andy.

      Meantime, south of the border, Boris is telling the English to learn to live without mainlining cheap, low-skilled, immigrant labour, and to learn to educate, train and pay indigenous, local workers better.

      Moon howling, or simply a policy that will materially improve the lives of the low paid?

    176. John Main says:


      “morons with a crap hobby”

      Don’t be too hard on yourself 🙂

    177. Ottomanboi says:

      The Balticization of Scotland is a likely possibility. The largest ethnic and most «assertive» group in these islands is English/British.
      As was the case with Russians in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuanian the majority will adhere to the status quo. Once settled in Scotland that adherence is unlikely to change significantly. Also, an older, politically conservative demographic may find Scotland more attractive than a younger one. A declining birth rate among Scots exacerbates the situation.
      The SNP and others have much to do regarding the historic one sided benefits of that mésalliance, the Scoto-English Union.
      All rather basic strategy really. Off with the useless covid masks and on with, to quote an «anonymous» UK government official, the «bare knuckle fight».
      Not a fight for those of a cautious or nervous disposition.

    178. Dan says:

      Arse! Only is Scotland, a country surrounded by oil and gas fields…

      Looking to source some pukka super-unleaded fuel as ma local toon’s dry at aw the pumps.

      Prepared to trade some mega low carbon footprint organic grown beetroots for some.

    179. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Dan 11.20: that gave me a laugh this morning.

      Could I enigmatically suggest that Rennies could be the answer, in more ways than one 😉 ?

    180. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 8.47am

      In looking around last night for back up figures relating to emigration versus immigration specifically relating to Scotland it was interesting that one of the papers that came up was produced by Migration Watch, which from memory is a right wing think tank with let’s say “sceptical” views about immigration. Interestingly the figures and graphs it produced didn’t split out the numbers of immigrants from the rest of the UK, presumably because they regard them as not being “foreign”?

      They seemed to be making much the same point as yours, that we should be encouraging more young Scots to stay here not leave for the rest of the UK or further afield, and that we should be making more of an effort to encourage Scots in the diaspora to return. Of course, that might be seen as just a modern day version of the old Australian “whites first” immigration policy, so Migration Watch’s proposed solution may be somewhat loaded by their ideological underpinnings or a priori assumptions about:

      1) whether immigration is necessary (I.e. do we accept that it is required due to an ageing population, to provide workers for jobs we can’t fill, to stop our population shrinking if that’s seen as a bad thing in itself);

      2) what scale of immigration is required if you accept it IS necessary;

      3) where should the immigrants be allowed to come from; and

      4) under what “terms and conditions” should they be allowed.

      I’m not making any value judgements about the above by the way. It just strikes me that at least some of the concerns being posited bu those complaining about floods of immigrants from the rest of the UK do seem to chime with those of the political right on immigration in to the UK as a whole?

      I wouldn’t trust the Tories and their insistence that the wondrous new post brexit global UK is somehow transitioning to a high wage, high skill economy now that it is “unshackled” from the supposed chains of the EU, particularly not when they’ve just plunged a third of a million folk in to poverty by reducing their £20 emergency Universal Credit uplift.

      I suppose I just want to see the receipts for the claims that we are being swamped, and particularly that it is by immigration from England, and that if this is demonstrated, does it automatically renders any future referendum pointless given the relative proportion of native born Scots?

    181. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis

      Thanks for your reply.

      I can’t see anything to disagree with in your post, TBH, but I would just add that I have long been convinced of the argument that no country can have both a lax immigration policy and a generous benefits system.

      So your comment about Universal Credit is perhaps more linked to immigration policy than you realise.

      For what it is worth, my bottom line is that immigration should never be allowed to negatively impact on the opportunities and living standards of the indigenous population. All proposals should be weighed against that fundamental premise and rejected if disadvantages are identified.

      The disadvantages when Indy is being discussed are, I think, unarguable, but that doesn’t seem to be many other poster’s views, so hey ho.

    182. Hatuey says:

      Thanks for the breakdown, Andy.

      So, according to you, 459 thousand voters in Scotland were born in England.

      And it is understood that only about a quarter of those voted “yes” in 2014.

      Give or take, that means the Unionist vote started with an advantage of around a quarter of a million votes which changing the terms of the franchise would instantaneously negate.

      Without intending to, I think Andy Ellis just made a great argument for changing the franchise.

    183. TheBuchanLoony says:

      Women won’t wheesht…
      NHS ‘gaslighting’ patients over trans women on female-only wards, nurse claims

    184. Dan says:

      Re. Internal migration.

      Simply observing overall national migration stats in isolation fails to deal with the aspect of how migration flows can impact specific local areas, as highlighted in several of the pages in this report.

    185. Tannadice Boy says:

      On a day when the Scottish Government is on the wrong end of another Supreme Court judgement it reminds me that the SNP Road map is the only way ahead for a second referendum. Avoiding legal challenge has to be central to the cause. Let’s take Grousebeaters good point from yesterday. If the wording on the question of the referendum including agree then Yes would have won. The Unionist response the question should be remain or leave aka The EU vote which would have lowered the Yes vote. My point, each side will try to advantage the conditions to benefit their own side. So the best we can hope for is exactly the same question. Same argument applies to the franchise. Folks we need to look at this from the correct side of the telescope. Take Papko, who said he voted No and has seen no discernible improvement in the Yes side case in seven years. I would agree with that sentiment. I have seen little effort to address the fundamental shortcomings in the Yes case. The same doubting questions are still to be resolved. Independence is not inevitable but a second Independence Referendum is inevitable. Activists need to grab the initiative from the SNP and start developing a better case.

    186. Republicofscotland says:

      In what’s becoming a authoritarian state (Scotland) Justice secretary Keith Brown wants to add misogyny to the HCB, however there’s no mention of misanthropy or misandry being added to the HCB.

    187. Ron Maclean says:

      Excellent post ‘Then What’ on

    188. Ron Maclean says:

      Now that the myth of our sovereignty has again been confirmed and an independence referendum is unlikely under current conditions, shouldn’t we be preparing without more ado to act as soon as possible as proposed by Stuart Campbell in Wings Over Scotland?

      “We believe that the Scottish people are sovereign, and we hereby announce our intention to declare Scotland independent and submit that intention to the will of the people in this election for their approval.
      Accordingly, if the Scottish National Party should secure more than 50% of the constituency votes in this election, we will consider that a clear mandate to withdraw from the Treaty Of Union, declare Scotland to once more be an independent state, and seek recognition from the international community on the basis of Chapter 1, Article 1 of the UN Charter, the right of all peoples to self-determination, that self-determination having been expressed by this vote.
      Should the UK Government wish, we are willing to confirm that mandate via a referendum, to be held no later than three months from the date of the election, on the same question as that used in 2014. If no such referendum is requested or conducted, the declaration of independence based on the election result will automatically be considered to stand.
      Upon the secure establishment of independence, a new general election will be called immediately.
      With regard to other policies, our current positions on all issues remain unchanged, and all future legislation will be brought before the Parliament, debated and voted on in the normal manner.”
      Wings Over Scotland – SNP Manifesto – 14 October 2020

    189. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 10.24 am

      Well, they’re not my figures they’re from the last census as I stated. Without some pretty in depth polling none of know how many of the 459K from 2011 are still in Scotland now, nor do we know how many of those who are still here may have changed their minds to support indy, even if they were opposed before?

      “It is understood…” in your post is the operative term I think, as has been pointed out before the split between No & Yes voters is based on 1 poll. It seems logical that the majority would probably be against independence, but I still think it’s a stretch to say there were “X” votes and that is what cost is victory in 2014.

      Naturally I don’t agree that this is a sufficient argument in favour of changing the franchise, as it still falls foul of the original objections raised by Stu Campbell. Even if it can be definitively proven that the numbers / assumptions are more or less correct, I don’t think everyone is going to accept that the correct response is to change the franchise.

      It also doesn’t answer the question of whether the change could be self defeating, or indeed can it ever really address the counter factual of what the 2014 result would have been if the franchise had been more restrictive. Even in the apparently unlikely event of another referendum any time soon, the calculus of how the electorate at that point will vote – and indeed how it has changed with respect to e.g how EU citizens will be likely to vote then as opposed to 2014, is hard to judge.

      If the % of English born voters in Scotland who would vote No has reduced since 2014, say for example due to brexit or general disapproval of Tory government, then it shows the inability of native Scots to secure a convincing pro indy majority in an even starker relief. The YouGov poll in your link says 49% of those born in Scotland voted Yes, so presumably if the franchise had been restricted to them the result would still have been No, or would have been on a knife edge even if residents of “X” years had been included, since an extra 2% would be around 72,500 votes from the 3.62 million who voted in 2014?

    190. Republicofscotland says:

      For someone who supposedly doesn’t curtsey to the royals, Sturgeon is bent over quite bit here.

    191. Hatuey says:

      Andy, the “split” isn’t based on one poll. It’s based on a YouGov survey and also a Lord Ashcroft survey. I based my calculations on the YouGov data which, if anything, understated support for the Union. All of that was explained in the link.

      If your second last paragraph is an expression of pure speculation, and it is, your final paragraph is a heady mix of confusion, bad math, delusion, and denial.

      You do understand that a binary choice is zero sum, with direct implications for vote share — i.e. a gain for one side translates to loss for the other, and vice versa?

      The evidence is clear and no amount of waffle will change it; adjusting the franchise will remove the 250 thousand vote structural advantage that the Unionist side starts with.

    192. James Che. says:

      Those that were soft NO’s in 2014 have had plenty of time to research, to think it out, to watch Britain in free fall over Brexit, EU, Irish border, Human rights and how NHS failed and has not recovered yet.
      To watch our buildings deteriorate,
      To watch councils deliver less services while council tax increase. Etc.
      Under the snp/ greens and the Westminster Scottish devolved government.

      If anyone is not convinced for Scotland to try go it alone by now, to take ownership and full control of their own governance, they never will due to not wanting the status quo to change unless it benifits themselves first.

      A Question is the most important phrase that some suggest should be asked in future, but perhaps for the soft NO’s they should first ask
      How is the average is person doing under Westminster rule.

      Because predicting in a crystal ball that Scotland and its people cannot look after themselves,

      Held in contrast to how Britain is actually being run for the rich, ( Pandora’s papers) wars, food banks, lack of HGV drivers, fuel shortages, bare supermarket shelf’s, prolonged downfall of economy, lack of work with real wages, people homeless and no help for most except a minimum wage = as standard wage,
      the bad attitude to covid health vaccines and passports and paying NHS doctors to only deal with Covid, while all borders around Britain remained open and politicians where caught not wearing masks, bbq’s with no self distancing, and runs to test your eyesight,
      Lies to fishermen and farmers,
      Grenfill tower cover up, stadium disaster cover ups, police abusing power against certain people, and women,
      Hidden money and donations, tax avoidance for the rich,

      Westminster juggles with Scotland on a deliberate basis on which governing body does a dirty deed on its people first,
      You just wait six months to a year for the policies seesaw to work on both sides of the border.

      The whole of Britain is a farce, A big Joke.

      Scotland needs to break the old mould and pretty quick.

    193. James Che. says:

      Sorry meant to insert: Panama and Pandora papers.

    194. Hatuey says:

      As I understand it, the loss at the Supreme Court today concerned the SNP’s desire to enshrine the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into law so that local and public authorities were legally compelled to comply with international standards on the rights of children.

      That sounds like the sort of thing that most people would instinctively agree with, but interpretation of these UN conventions always leaves a lot of room for manoeuvre when it comes to interpretation and implementation.

      Up until now, and presumably henceforth since they lost, the Scottish Government has had to make do with issuing guidance. Maybe, then, within that guidance we can glean an insight into the Scottish Government’s thinking, intentions, and priorities in pursuing this at the Supreme Court…

      “The following principles are good practice recommendations shaped by the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child (UNCRC)…”

      I think I see where they were hoping to go with this.

    195. I see in todays paper the Tories are that upset at the treatment Boris got at the the hands of the BBC who expected our PM to actually answer questions that Nadine Dorries is threatening to change the Licence Fee. Also the EU competition Commissioner wants Facebook broken up after Monday. She thinks they are to powerful .The Secretary of State for Scotland thinks another Indy ref should be in 25 years .Someone should ask is that now official policy. Maybe time to do research into how Alec Salmond got David Cameron to agree to a ref .That would involve talking to them.Then there is the fallout from a certain bunch of papers .Should add its the Licence fee system the Tories are threatening to change.

    196. Hatuey says:

      David Ritchie, we don’t need to do any further research. Salmond got an independence referendum because he won an overall majority on a clear mandate. In other words, he argued for independence — something Nicola hasn’t done seriously since she took office.

      I was reading recently that Scottish Labour had a double digit lead in the polls just two months before the election of 2011. Salmond turned that around and went on to win a majority by arguing for independence.

      The Tory position on a section 30 would vaporise in seconds if they faced a party that argued unambiguously for independence and won a majority on that basis. Sturgeon hasn’t done that and she never will.

      Instead she has committed to stopping things that are essentially unstoppable, Brexit, Covid, etc., and came up with slogans that are essentially meaningless, “I’m with Nicola”, “Stronger for Scotland”, etc.

      Everything changes dramatically when Sturgeon goes, providing she can be replaced by someone who is sincere and clear on independence. Of course, that’s why the BBC and Boris love her and give her an easy time.

    197. Graf Midgehunter says:

      David Ritchie says: at 3:36 pm
      “Then there is the fallout from a certain bunch of papers.”
      It will be the same as with the Panama Papers.

      Headlines for a few days, proof that the Queen, politicians, rich folk etc. have been fiddling with tax havens and are just getting richer.

      Apart from that NOTHING will change in the UK.

    198. Cenchos says:

      If Sturgeon loses her £50 bet with D Ross, she’ll claim it on her expenses.

    199. Grouse Beater says:

      “Salmond got an independence referendum because he won an overall majority on a clear mandate.” Hatuey 4.01pm

      Hatuey: this might interest you and others discussing sovereignty.

      PS Thank you and others who have quoted from my work in support of their argument and did not lift out one sentence from it to suggest all the rest is bunkum. May I take this opportunity to wish blood and soil nationalists well. Their steadfastness while on guard duty to stop unionist graffiti artists from spray painting our history is remarkable.

    200. Robert Louis says:

      And so, today, England’s pretendy ‘supreme‘ ‘court’ decided that laws passed in Scotland by our democratically elected parliament can be removed on a whim by Westminster. No matter if every single MSP of every party voted for them. THAT IS COLONIAL RULE.

      And what are the SNP doing about this??? sweet b***er all. As usual.

      My goodness, if the Scottish government do not immediately respond by calling an independence referendum, or even just declaring the treay opf union to be at an end, as it is now materially damaging Scotland’s interests, then their is no hope for Scotland. Oh, and we can then all clearly see that Nicola Sturgeon is nothing but a cowardly colonial enabler.

      When, when, when will the SNP finally wake up and realise the days of asking nicely for a referendum are long gone. London will simply say no. Sp, it is time to press ahead with independence by every other means.

      I am truly sick of watching Scotland getting right royally f***ed by England’s racist, murderous Tory thugs on a daily basis, whilst all the SNP do, is sit on their hands and whine.

    201. Veritas says:

      Round & round it goes.
      All the tired old arguments for Indyref 2.
      Does anyone truly believe it will happen within the next 10 years or at all?
      And if it did , what is the invitation- welcome to Sturgeons Scotland?
      What will that look like? Because regardless of what you might think or want to think – she will be in charge- total control.
      So what’s she selling?
      You may buy the new woke mantra which trumps old style economic activity.
      Who needs a job when you’re happy?
      Why bother working at all when we can all get a Universal Income?
      We won’t have to pay for it because we won’t have capitalist bollocks like a bank – we’ll just borrow it.
      We’ll all have the choice to be who we want to be-boy/ girl/ man/ woman and any shade in between- think of the fun that will be in a few years time.
      You may be unperturbed that there is no currency plan or national bank or any sizeable industries which are Scottish owned.That’s because Nicola has a better plan- we’ll be rejoining the EU & sticking the begging bowl out there.Might take a few years & we’ve already toned down the Catalan support so fingers crossed on that.
      Of course the world loves us & would never seek to exploit us- not even nasty Westminster because once we’re independent they’ll be really nice & helpful to us.
      You may believe that Nicola & her band of acolytes have all the answers but nasty old Westminster/ Boris have silenced & scuppered them.
      You may believe that Scotland’s traditionally greatest asset ie the education system,has never been in safer & nurturing hands and that we can look forward to a flowering of intellectual growth.
      We’ve all seen the investment that the SNP have made in trade apprenticeships over the last 15 years-just look at how easy it is to get tradesmen now that the Poles have gone.Or let’s just stick it out till we rejoin the EU- easier than doing something about it.
      You may believe that our infrastructure is in safe & efficient hands- look at all our new hospitals, our ferries our airport our tram system and soon the railways will be brought under government control and they’ll be great too.
      And just look at the improvements to the NHS?
      What about our Police – they’ve definitely got better under Nicola.
      And look how we’ve got on top of drugs,tackled petty crime- because( and this is genius) a lot of the stuff that used to be thought of as criminal simply isn’t in the new Scotland.
      Why bother with petty stuff like rape,domestic violence serious assault, housebreaking etc when people are misgendering some poor unfortunate-
      The Courts are also much more attuned to the people’s needs & how to protect them.Nicola, after all is THE embodiment of the people’s will- we voted SNP and they all agree with her- on everything it seems, so that’s nice and simple and handy that the judges agreed with her too when they got their jobs.
      So that means that everyone will be free in Scotland to speak their minds & not worry about it- not like Boris & all his political correctness.
      Ok the roads have a few potholes but why should we repair them when wee Paddy & the Greens have a better solution- just get rid of the cars.
      And just think of all those world class politicians we’ll get back in Holyrood- Ian Blackford is just the kind of leader who would unite & lead Scotland if Nicola were to retire to France- her mission accomplished. Or what about Humza ( for it is HE) ?Just think of him at the helm-no?
      Well we’ll have loads of snouts to fit in the trough so it’ll be no bad thing for the Scottish people if there are a few more Regulatory bodies set up & a few more SPADS hired- we can’t lose that talent
      Yeah let’s get that our to the people now!
      How can it lose?
      It’s not about a flag & soil for most Scots- it’s about all that shit listed up there.
      If the logic is that you get Indyref 2 then start thinking about what you’re asking people to vote for then that’s really clever- Baldrickesque.

    202. Tannadice Boy says:

      Just when I thought a good political discourse was developing with respect to contributors trying to agree a way forward.
      The inflammatory and intemperate language creeps in. As a Scot living in 2021 trying to weave a way through the political and legal obstacles we face. I feel surrounded on three sides. On my left flank is the blood and soil brigade, on my right flank is the inertia, incompetence of a Scottish Government and to the centre is an intransigent UK Government that thinks nothing is wrong in Scotland. Where is that elusive Scot with a reputation for fairness and reasonableness?. You must be out there surely?

    203. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Hatuey

      1) “Andy, the “split” isn’t based on one poll. It’s based on a YouGov survey and also a Lord Ashcroft survey. I based my calculations on the YouGov data which, if anything, understated support for the Union. All of that was explained in the link.”

      Two polls is hardly conclusive evidence, particularly if one is from Ashcroft who is understand not part of the British Polling Council as his organisation only does work on his own account and doesn’t perform its own fieldwork. It does seem that some of his work is highly regarded, but perhaps that’s why it hasn’t been widely captured elsewhere as I think a lot of outlets will tend to favour BPC members. I can’t see anywhere in the analysis in the link that the YouGov survey understated support for the union, but perhaps I just missed it?

      2) “If your second last paragraph is an expression of pure speculation, and it is, your final paragraph is a heady mix of confusion, bad math, delusion, and denial.”

      Of course it’s speculation: it could hardly be otherwise. None of the points made are particularly outlandish or strange however. Had a different franchise been part of the 2012-14 campaign, it’s quite possible it would have had an impact on the eventual result, and that may just as easily have been a negative impact as a positive one.

      It’s hardly contentious surely to say that the same might happen in the event the franchise for a future referendum is changed? The number of votes gained as a result would have to be offset against the number of people it persuaded to vote the other way. The scale of either change would be difficult to gauge without detailed polling which isn’t often done in such situations, as we’ve seen.

      3) “You do understand that a binary choice is zero sum, with direct implications for vote share — i.e. a gain for one side translates to loss for the other, and vice versa?

      The evidence is clear and no amount of waffle will change it; adjusting the franchise will remove the 250 thousand vote structural advantage that the Unionist side starts with.”

      Yes, I understand quite well thanks. The evidence simply isn’t that clear: any putative benefit of amending the 2014 franchise model has to be set against the potential losses it would cause, and take cognisance of the changes in circumstances between 2014 and any new referendum.

      Do you really think there won’t be any such changes? EU citizens for example might not have had reason to vote differently due to some change that happened in the intervening period? You can say that it’s a zero sum game all you like and insist that changing the franchise results in an automatic 250K vote gain with absolutely no downside, but that doesn’t make your truthy assertion factual.

    204. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve just watched “Landward”.

      Why is it that Scots are not, on the whole, in favour of eating lamb?

      Our fields and hills are covered with them. There are no air miles involved in getting the meat into the local butchers and shops.

      Our kebabs are made of lamb mince! Nothing like roast leg of lamb with gravy, tatties and a veg of your choice. Yorkshire pud works with that as well. Or lamb leg steak with mushrooms, onions and chips.

      Save the planet! Save our farmers! Eat local lamb!

    205. Chas says:


      I am with you 100%.

      Yet some people say ‘Don’t worry, it will all be fine’?

    206. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Chas at 9:07 pm.

      You typed,
      “Yet some people say ‘Don’t worry, it will all be fine’?”

      This is what was in the back of your mind…

    207. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon 9:07pm
      And you can throw on some of Dan’s organic beetroot.

    208. Chas says:


      Not sure why you state ‘This is what was in the back of your mind’?
      If you think you are telepathic you are sadly mistaken.

    209. Dan says:

      @ Tannadice Boy

      Only if you’ve got some super-unleaded to trade. Proper stuff, not the shitty ethanol crap from the supermarkets…
      I’m not parking up my various machines over the winter months with crap fuel in them that will clog up and corrode the fuel systems.

    210. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Och Chas, chill out. Don’t be so paranoid. It was a humorous interjection.

      Bet you don’t eat lamb.

    211. James Barr Gardner says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      6 October, 2021 at 9:07 pm

      Why is it that Scots are not, on the whole, in favour of eating lamb?

      For a great many years a favourite of mine and my family were gigot chops, with the bone in it ! Boy scouts used to convert the bones into a woggles. This weekend I will undertake a safari to find the elusive gigot chops, hopefully they still exist including the bone ! This time garlic will be used when cooking them !

    212. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi James Barr Gardner.

      You have reminded me why my lamb stew doesn’t taste like ‘wot my Mum used to make’.

      She used gigot chops for her ‘Irish Stew’. I haven’t seen the term ‘gigot chops’ in years.

      Also, have you tried to buy ‘mutton’ to make soup?

    213. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Dan 9:32pm
      You made me laugh this morning. And humour has been in short supply of late. I am afraid I do not have any of the good stuff either petrol or the whisky. Using the premium unleaded from Tesco as a compromise. Signed up to own Go Sober in October but doing it myself for my own specific cancer charity. So no good whisky at all. Roll on November.

    214. Dan says:

      @ Tannadice Boy

      Aye, it’s good for the health to have a chuckle and a smile, so I try to pack in as many as possible before the powers that be start taxing them. They seem to tax most things that folk like. 🙁
      Good luck on yer dry month ahead. Could be a tough one as you follow Scottish Politics. Just hope you don’t suffer like Frank Drebin in Airplane, with his “Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit…”

    215. robbo says:

      Chas says:
      6 October, 2021 at 9:07 pm

      I am with you 100%.

      Yet some people say ‘Don’t worry, it will all be fine’?



      Everything is just great in “Dear Old Blighty”

    216. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Tannadice Boy.

      Check out ‘Highland Park’ (Orkney) and anything with ‘Jura’ on the label.

      They are eminently palatable with a lump of ice and the ‘Jura’ for being a Hebrides malt, is not over-soaked with peat. Not like that ‘Laphroaig’ which Rebus swears by and I think tastes like stuff you would pour into your toilet bowl for hygiene’s sake.

    217. Hatuey says:

      Thanks for the link, Grouse Beater. And thanks for the well wishes since I now am happy to be called a “blood and soil nationalist” if advocating a change to the franchise means you are to be described in such terms. I might just make that label my very first tattoo.

      Now, then, Andy, when I said the YouGov survey understated support for the union, I meant relative to the Ashcroft survey which seemed to suggest support was higher amongst voters from the rest of the UK (rather than English as you put it).

      You seem to be casting doubt on the usefulness of tried and tested survey research methods which seems desperate but I won’t be defending those methods here.

      You agree your second last paragraph was speculation and that’s good of you. I could speculate in the other direction and suggest that playing the so-called nationalist card could result in increased support for independence. It worked for the Brexiteers.

      You say “any putative benefit of amending the 2014 franchise model has to be set against the potential losses it would cause…”

      Yes, and again, there would be potential benefits. And, again, it worked for the Brexiteers. It isn’t speculation to suggest that we would still be in the EU had they used the same franchise you are demanding that we continue to use (the one we used in 2014).

      With the following you leap of the speculation train and buy a one way ticket to Bonkersville;

      “EU citizens for example might not have had reason to vote differently due to some change that happened in the intervening period?”

      What in actual name of actual fuck does that actually mean in an actual country that isn’t even actually in the EU?

    218. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Dan 10:02pm
      Ha ha that’s one of my favourite scenes. You have to laugh. Nae bother so far on the sober October. Finding I am getting some jobs done. Babysitting tomorrow so that’s another free day. Easy!. Hope you find the good petrol for your machines.

    219. Hatuey says:


    220. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon 10:07pm
      Hi Brian,
      Get thee behind me Satan for tempting me. I am off the bevy man. At least for a month. Still hoping for a Dundee FC recovery. Anyway I am off to bed. Babysitting a one year old is like going ten rounds with Dick McTaggart.

    221. Dan says:

      With all this talk of sheep, petrol engines, and moon howling it reminded me, is it not about time for a remake of an old film…
      Only change could be the two lads use an E bike instead of a reeky 2 stroke Suzuki GP125 to keep the eco warriors happy, and the title gets an Ellis inspired tweak… 😉

      Restless Natavists

      Few mins of the original.

    222. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Brilliant, underrated film, Dan.

    223. Davie Oga says:


      “Think about it… Why are you extending a vote on the Constitutional integrity of Scotland to foreign nationals? And don’t be queasy about the term foreign nationals, because that’s what people not born in Scotland are.. their nationality is NOT Scottish.”

      OK what about someone born to a Scottish parent in one of the many countries that consider nationality a purely ethnic issue?

      Scottish people are ethnically distinct and related by blood. That’s what makes someone Scottish by the majority of international comparisons, not their place of birth, how long they’ve lived anywhere, what they fucking identify as, lol, or any other made up shit by politicians and civil servants. Scottishy type people are related and happen to generally occupy a piece of land commonly referred to as Scotland.

    224. Pixywine says:

      Some entertainment from the Left.

    225. Pixywine says:

      It’s amazing how long people can string out a completely academic subject in the face of real politic. Well done Andy Ellis for setting the narrative. Do yoy keep dogs?

    226. Breeks says:

      Davie Oga says:
      7 October, 2021 at 12:27 am

      OK what about someone born to a Scottish parent in one of the many countries that consider nationality a purely ethnic issue?

      Their nationality is not Scottish. That is determined by their place of birth, and that’s one of those binary issues people struggle with.

      If you want to include these folks in what is a purely Constitutional vote, that means extending the franchise to include Scots Nationals and Scottish Citizens, and you’ve given yourself the task of defining what a Scottish citizen is, and you’ve introduced a non-sovereign faction of the electorate into a Constitutional vote where sovereignty is all but essential.

      Having introduced citizenship as a qualifying criteria, you have set a precedent for UK citizenship to be qualifying criteria, where a No voting citizen refuses to recognise Scotland as a distinct Nation, and recognises no British citizenship besides UK citizenship… Thus it is arguable that all UK citizens would be eligible for a vote.

      So, if you’re going to open up your franchise to accept citizenship as qualifying criteria, you’re also going to need some mechanism to close it down again so UK Nationals demanding a vote don’t get one.

      Scotland is NOT like other nations. Scotland’s people are Constitutionally Sovereign by birth rite, which is not the norm. If that binary concept was better understood by Scotland’s Sovereign people, then the Union would never have existed.

      I would be the first to admit that such a draconian franchise would be very unpleasant on Scottish people who are Scottish in every possible respect except being born here, but Scotland’s Constitution has become so garbled, degraded and distorted by the Treaty of Union and UK Colonialism that Scotland needs to proverbially switch itself off and on again.

      That switching off and on works for computers, because it resets the computer to it’s starting point , and the computer reboots it’s operating systems, hoping to detect or avoid the rogue routine which caused the problem.

      That’s exactly what Scotland’s Constitution needs too. A reset to it’s barest essentials, it’s founding principles, and thereafter, a very careful “reboot” of the subsequent layers of Constitutional principle. I’d be the first to agree that process might be pretty rough, with lots of us having to exit our comfort zones, but Scotland has to rediscover itself.

      It’s a process we need to go through, but we’ll never be able to hold that conversation with ourselves while the BBC is screwing our heads with it’s indoctrination and false narrative, and while Scotland is besieged by UK colonialism. The tendrils of such colonialism are currently everywhere.

      It is my firm conviction, maybe you would call it paranoia, that UK Colonialism has ALWAYS being playing the long game to assimilate Scotland completely and to such an extent that Scotland no longer has any Legal Personality left.

      That “Long Game Colonialism” was handed a Constitutional gift from the heavens when “Sovereign” Scotland acceded to having a Devolved “Parliament” in Scotland’s Capital City, masquerading as “Scotland’s” Government, when all the time, Holyrood represented a colonial bridgehead which helped embed the notion that Scotland’s Government was subordinate to Westminster.

      The great “Con” of Scotland didn’t begin with Sturgeon seven years ago, (although Sturgeon was perhaps Westminster’s second great gift from the Heavens). The real Constitutional War over Scotland has been ongoing since 1707, but the establishment of a crank, token “Parliament” Holyrood in 1998 handed Westminster the upper hand, and they’ve been surreptitiously tightening their colonial grip on Scotland ever since.

      Do you begin to understand that? Holyrood’s fealty to Westminster should mean it automatically forfeits it’s right to represent Scotland. Holyrood is “their” colonial puppet government, not Scotland’s defender of Constitution and Sovereignty. Holyrood is the colonial pup we bought, hook, line, and sinker back in 1998, and we currently have the nauseating absurdity of an SNP First Minister setting one unholy and unconstitutional precedent after another.

      Is it by accident or design that Scotland’s Independence movement stands choked behind the bottleneck of a pretendy Devolved Assembly masquerading as our Government which turns on Scotland’s people and says they can’t even have a Referendum without Westminster’s approval? If you believe it’s by accident, then you are a fool.

      The pain is, it didn’t have to be this way.Holyrood could have been “won”. Scotland could have played the same Constitutional games with Holyrood which Westminster has been playing. Holyrood could have been “ours” and a fortress grown strong on defending Scotland’s Sovereign integrity, not a Vichy puppet assembly which bends over and presents it arse to Westminster for yet another butt#*!%king.

      Let Sturgeon’s only redeeming legacy be that she exposed Holyrood for the cowardly and grovelling colonial outpost it is, – a Unionist Establishment designed to keep Scotland enchained and imprisoned by Devolution, a stopgap ushered in the 1990’s to shore up a crumbling Union. – “Their” stopgap. Not Scotland’s.

      Scotland needs defibrillated, a jolt from it’s stupor, and to seize hold of it’s Constitutional Sovereignty before it’s too late and beyond resurrection. This is a state of emergency, and only a small number of us are event alert to the danger.

    227. Breeks says:

      Dan says:
      6 October, 2021 at 10:29 pm
      With all this talk of sheep, petrol engines, and moon howling it reminded me, is it not about time for a remake of an old film…
      Only change could be the two lads use an E bike instead of a reeky 2 stroke Suzuki GP125 to keep the eco warriors happy, and the title gets an Ellis inspired tweak… ?

      Restless Natavists

      Few mins of the original….

      Steady now… Great film, but these days to keep millennials happy it should carry a Pete Wishart health warning. “May contain nuts”.

    228. Robert Hughes says:

      ” Scotland needs defibrillated, a jolt from it’s stupor, and to seize hold of it’s Constitutional Sovereignty before it’s too late and beyond resurrection. This is a state of emergency, and only a small number of us are event alert to the danger. ”

      Stand clear …….ZAP ! …..still flatlining doctor …..again …..ZAP ! …………….heartbeat restored . Nurse , take the patient back to the ward .

      Who will be our unshakeable , frank Zapper ?

      Brilliant post Señor Pantalones

    229. James Che. says:

      People born in Scotland, and therefore Scots by birth cannot solely have the right to vote for the legal position of self determination ( IF) others born somewhere else or EU nationals, and people whom have moved here want a vote too.

      That would defy the statement,” The right to self determination “. For Scotlands people legally.


      It is the Scots, “ Scottish people “ that have the “Claim of right”

      That is what is in writing,

      The bendy rules that the electrol process in Great Britain follows perhaps deliberately prevents a indigenous population like Scotland from being able to vote on the “right to self determination.” When flooded with people born out with of their country.

    230. Tinto Chiel says:

      Historical note: Restless Natives was written by Ninian Dunnett, son of the long-standing editor of The Scotsman when it was a newspaper, Alastair Dunnett.

      I’d forgotten how dangerous the bike chase through Embra looked. What would Health and Safety say now? Pity the saltire got arrested.

      @Breeks 8.36: a searing post, one to be handled by the SNP with asbestos-lined tongs.

    231. James Che. says:

      By following the present voting franchise, the people born in Scotland as indigenous Scots are overthrown, seriously out numbered and out flanked by those not born here, making it a free for all vote,

      This cannot comply with Europe’s interpretation of “Right to self determination” for any people, in their birthright country, including Scots in Scotland,

    232. John Main says:

      @Breeks 8:36

      If only a small number of people are alert to the danger that Hollyrood is intended to be the destination stop for Scottish autonomy, not a request stop on the route to Indy, then WTF have most people been doing and thinking these past 21 years?

      That purpose was baked in from Day 0. Considering that the Labour Party made this clear at the time, and that all their deliberations are still online and easy to find, it’s hardly a big secret.

    233. James Che. says:

      The first footsteps to any legal vote in Scotland for The right to self determination,
      For the “ Claim of right “. must be arrived at by identifying whom is a Scot. Whom has the birth right to call themselves a Scot.

      Thus will follow whom has the right to vote in a Scottish independence vote.

      For these are recognised as Europe’s rules
      And the treaty of the union itself is an international Treaty,
      Which GB hangs on too and wishes be considered by every other country around the world.

      But that Treaty only ever originated with two countries, The kingdom of England and the kingdom of Scotland as signatories.

      The English Parliament and the Scottish Parliament ratified it.

      This treaty in itself recognises the two distinguished counties and people, as did the Alien act, that referred to the Scots people as different from their own.

    234. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Regardless of how much we may disagree about franchise-related stuff, it’s a fair bet that there’s more discussion happening here than at the highest levels of the Scottish government.

      And that, surely, tells its own story.

    235. James Che. says:

      Wether this is the correct root to follow is surely up to Scotland,
      It could be the first criteria perhaps in sorting the wheat from the chaff.
      To be recognised as a more indigenous population.

    236. James Che. says:

      9:57 am

      Replace counties, Insert Countries,

      Spell checker can also be a hinderance.

    237. DJ says:

      Ian Brotherhood: completely agree. Too much talk and no action, which will see the desire for independence as something less than a footnote in history. I truly fear for the future of our country. Will it even exist in 10 years time? I wonder. The event horizon is looming large.

    238. Hatuey says:

      Does one need to be able to see the moon when one howls, or is it enough to know it’s there?

      I agree that Holyrood was designed to thwart independence and democracy, rather than facilitate it, and that it is a monument to neo-colonial subservience, as Breeks explains. To interface with it is to validate and confirm the pretence of the master’s dominion…

      I’d close it tomorrow, if I could, and think there would be more dignity and honesty in a direct colonial relationship that didn’t require us to play charades and bow.

      Most so-called democracies and their institutions are fake though, and most rest on some allegation that the people are in charge and are sovereign, providing they play by rules that some old rich guys threw together so many centuries ago.

      Sovereignty really does lie with people, here, there, and everywhere, but you don’t need a claim of right or a parliament to confirm it. It’s foundations are inalienably found in the majority will of the people.

      All that’s required anywhere is for a majority to stand up and say “we the majority tell you to fuck off in the name of the people who live in this place”. And fuck off they must.

      If the Claim of Right has any value or meaning, it’s because it confirms what I have said above.

      The key to everything for them is to prevent us talking to each other and sharing these truths, cheif amongst them the truth that 90% of Scottish people would be much better off if the country was independent and run along fairly honest democratic lines.

    239. Breeks says:

      If you’re finding this franchise stuff difficult to get your head around, I find it easier to imagine you’re not talking about Scotland or Scottish people.

      Say, just for example, you were talking about Aboriginal people in Australia, or First Nation Americans in the US or Canada lodging a Constitutional claim on either Independence or secession of some part of their homeland… Do you feel that the Western colonial influences should be included in the franchise, or do you feel inclined to be more sympathetic to the rights of the indigenous people?

      Even if you believe that subsequent generations of immigrants who have made their homes in these places should be entitled to having a say, don’t you think that’s for the colonised people to determine?

      In such a profoundly black and white Constitutional Context, I’m not at all sure the arguments are strengthened by asserting that citizens introduced to a country through colonialism should have the same rights as the people who’ve been colonised.

      Add in intermarriage and the assimilation of cultures, and not only are you muddying the waters about ethnicity, you’re diluting the case and cultural distinction which empowers a Nation to assert itself as a Nation. .. Hmmm… How can I make that argument clearer…How can you argue that Scots are entitled to be an Independent Nation if they are so intermingled and culturally assimilated that you can no longer distinguish Scot from non-Scot”?

      This ISN’T blood and soil “nationalism”, these are the cold, dispassionate arguments which distinguish one nation from another. What actually makes a French person French? Why is it possible for some people to claim Irish Citizenship, but not everyone? These factors, these clinical rules if you like, are the determinants in reaching decisions, not making arguments.

    240. Scott says:

      For those that are interested…

      British Nationality Act 1981 defines who is and isn’t a ‘British Citizen’.

    241. Ron Maclean says:

      From: The Interactive Consultation Constitution For Scotland –

      Section 1.6. Citizenship: All persons, including adopted children, who were UK citizens immediately prior to independence, and were born in Scotland, or were legally resident in Scotland at independence, will become citizens of Scotland.
      Section 1.7. All persons with a grandparent of Scots nationality have the right to be citizens of Scotland.
      Section 1.8. Parliament will enact laws to regulate the acquisition of Scottish citizenship by adoption, marriage, descent, or naturalisation, and to specify the manner in which citizenship may be lost or renounced.
      Section 1.9. Laws concerning the conditions under which dual citizenship with other states may be held and the acquisition or renunciation of citizenship must not unfairly discriminate in terms of sections 2.1 to 2.3.
      Section 1.10. Residency visas will be made available to immigrants in the interests of national requirements at the time as prescribed by law. Residency visa holders will be eligible, subject to Government consideration, for Scottish citizenship after five years of continuous residency within the country and such further requirements as to residence as may be prescribed by law.
      Section 1.11. All immigrants will be issued with an Entry Pass. The category of Entry Pass issued will vary according to status as prescribed by law.
      Section 1.12. Citizens, resident, and on the electoral register, are entitled to vote in all national elections and referendums upon reaching the Age of Legal Capacity, except for persons under guardianship due to severe mental incapacity as defined by a specific medical or judicial certification.
      Other draft constitutions are available.

    242. Breeks says:

      Scott says:
      7 October, 2021 at 11:11 am
      For those that are interested…

      British Nationality Act 1981 defines who is and isn’t a ‘British Citizen’.

      Shock horror. Colonial Government demands that it dictates the terms of it’s colonialism and citizenship, and dutiful ‘subjects’ like Scott roll over and obey.

      Meanwhile in Scotland, the people remain Constitutionally sovereign.

      I want to say ‘defiantly’ sovereign, but we know we are led by too many spineless cowards for anything as edgy as defiance.

    243. Breeks says:

      Are you frightened yet?

      Chris McEleny arrested….

    244. Scott says:

      Breeks says:
      7 October, 2021 at 11:25 am

      Shock horror. Colonial Government demands that it dictates the terms of it’s colonialism and citizenship, and dutiful ‘subjects’ like Scott roll over and obey.

      Are you on glue?

      I only posted that link for information purposes, not as a ‘fuck you’.

    245. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Breeks says:

      „It is my firm conviction, maybe you would call it paranoia, that UK Colonialism has ALWAYS being playing the long game to assimilate Scotland completely and to such an extent that Scotland no longer has any Legal Personality left.“

      A long game indeed which has taken over 300 years to reach a point where the English wet dream could be near.

      Until 1707, bloody battle and some subterfuge was the usual method used by the English to try to take permanent control of the Scots. James VI was just a hickup in the system for England and soon rectified.

      Technically Scotland wasn’t „bought“ as a colony but as an „equal partner“ however to be slowly but surely plucked for the English harvest.

      1715 and in particular 1745, any pretense of a partnership was dropped and the real, hard colonisation of Scotland started.

      Scotland wouldn’t even have been allowed to have a devolved “Parliament/Assembly” were it not for the EU at the time having a strange bout of democracy. Recognising that the Scots (and others) had no real voice in the UK they „insisted“ that WM/Blair „grant“ Scotland its own House of Representatives.

      Of course rigged and chained to an iron ball.

      As Breeks says: „The great “Con” of Scotland.“

    246. Breeks says:

      Scott says:
      7 October, 2021 at 11:40 am
      Breeks says:
      7 October, 2021 at 11:25 am

      Shock horror. Colonial Government demands that it dictates the terms of it’s colonialism and citizenship, and dutiful ‘subjects’ like Scott roll over and obey.

      Are you on glue?

      I only posted that link for information purposes, not as a ‘fuck you’.

      What Scotland’s colonial oppressor says is not for information purposes. Catch up with the program Scott. 😉

    247. Scott says:

      Breeks says:
      7 October, 2021 at 11:57 am

      What Scotland’s colonial oppressor says is not for information purposes. Catch up with the program Scott.

      I’ll decide the reasoning behind MY comments, stop being a narse.

    248. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Hatuey says: at 10:39 am

      “I’d close it tomorrow, if I could, and think there would be more dignity and honesty in a direct colonial relationship that didn’t require us to play charades and bow.”

      That’s what we had until 1999. We voted for MPs to sit in Parliament at WM. Were part of Government, had Minister posts.

      We were good old fashioned “House Jocks.”

    249. Stuart MacKay says:


      Kicking and punching you say? Well, in that case there should be substantial damage to both the door and Cllr. McEleny.

      A quick photo of the door should be sufficient to determine the difference between a loud knock and assault on a defenceless piece of wood.

      No prizes for guessing what actually happened.

    250. James Che. says:

      If language defines wether a people are indigenous to their country as part and parcel of the inclusiveness,
      then we look to other countries for confirmation of our ever developing language of the Scots. And recognised country.

      Here below are some well known acknowledgements from BBC, dictionaries, and MSM newspapers that define Scots language as being different from British or from English language as recognised by England and America.

      BBCAmerica, 2014,
      Daily Record, May 2020.
      The Scotsman, April 2020.
      The National 19 Feb 2021.
      The press & journal 30th Nov 2020.
      The Herald 20th Nov 2019,

      You will also see a definitive description of Scots, Scots language, and people in the following literature.

      TheGreatbritish mag: Co .uk
      Cambridge dictionary.
      Oxford dictionary.
      And Miriam- Webster.

      It is without doubt in the mind of our nearest neighbour and across the pond that Scots are of a different, culture, and language than the rest of the English side of Britain,
      That imposition of being treated as a colonised country where we we banned from using our old languages in schools, and had it emphasised/ imprinted on us in the 20th century’ as children by the British education system to pronounce our words differently or be detained after school, or given lines to write over and over until a Scots speaking child succumbed to speaking the queens English as it was called.

      The “ Claim of right “ is important “ and is Scots sovereignty indeed helpful.
      The right to self determination of a nation and its people also holds importance,

      The colonial attitude to retrain the local Scots children through the education system to be assimilated has lasted for hundreds of years by force of children by adult teacher bullies on vulnerable children, away from the safety of their parents.

      This is still happening with the gender issues today.

      Scotland and its native Scots must stop the colonial attitude from both government and its Scottish branch.

      You are sovereign,
      You have you’re own old language, and new developing language. A mix or blend of old and new according to imposed history That still needs interpretation by those outside of Scotland that do not understand it.
      This new blend of Scots language does not diminish those speaking Gaelic, the north east of Scotland always was slightly different,
      And the highlands was always different from the lowlands,
      And sea farmers is different from land farmers and crofters, but they were all Scots according to those whom did not live in Scotland,

      It is time that the Scottish people became recognised as belonging to the land of Scotland as sovereign indigenous people whom were coloniased.

    251. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Was having a look at the Covid stats for Germany this morning, so I had a quick look at the UK ones.

      Daily new cases UK 39,851 DE 7,982
      Deaths/day UK 143 DE 56
      Deaths since begin UK 137,295 DE 94,027
      Fully vac. UK 67.2 % DE 65 %
      Full vac from 12y UK ? DE 73.1 %
      Population 62 mill 82 mill

    252. Hatuey says:

      Graf, “That’s what we had until 1999”.

      It was equally shit and cost much less.

      The only reason they built a Scottish Parliament is because they knew we were close to telling them to fuck off.

      I don’t feel any better represented or happier now than I did when Ian Lang was running Scotland on behalf of London. Actually I feel worse — Ian Lang wasn’t a vicious science-denying fruitcake who pretended he was Moses as he threw our heroes in jail.

      The only argument for Holyrood that carries any weight is that it could serve as some sort of platform or stepping stone on the way to independence. Salmond succeeded in that regard, but we can’t know where he or we would be today if we pursued independence by other means.

    253. Breeks says:

      Well, well, well… More info… I wonder who called the cops…

    254. James Che. says:

      If you can’t beat them,

      Sully their name and an attempt lock them up.

    255. Hatuey says:

      “claims he was seen kicking and punching a close door on Greenock’s Kelly Street while shouting and swearing…”

      Maybe the door identifies as a jigsaw. Are they going to invoke “The Procedure”? Interesting that The Record broke the story.

      Brrrrrrrrrrng Brrrrrrrrrrrrrg

      “Kelly Street Concierge, how can I help?”

      “Hi. My name’s Judith, I’m calling from Holyrood…. Would it be possible to talk to the door, please?”

      “Hold the line…”

    256. James Che. says:

      Are they that scared,

      That new tactics are if you can’t beat them?
      Lock them up as political prisoners under dodgy accusations.

      Oh they are not new tactics, silly me.
      There just bias tactics of power.

    257. Thanks everyone who responded. Great Alex Salmond show today.

    258. Republicofscotland says:

      Women protest outside Holyrood today, on the GRA impinging on their rights, and parents aren’t pleased that transgender education in schools will be embedded Scotland is the first country in the world to do so.

      This is very revealing, why go outside Scotland for analysis, the only reason I can see is that to do so, helped push the percentage who agree with the GRA up. The SNP government must’ve been afraid to keep the whole thing in Scotland the way it should’ve been, because it would’ve reflected badly on their very unpopular GRA agenda.

      “The protest came as the Scottish government released its analysis of 17,058 responses to its second consultation on GRA changes, 45% of which came from outside Scotland.”

    259. Breeks says:

      Dan says:
      7 October, 2021 at 2:07 pm
      @ Breeks

      Re. McEleny

      How bizarre… look forward to more details emerging.

      Glad somebody archived the pages…. 😉

    260. Dan says:

      Sigh… This is just taking the piss now.
      And especially when I was attempting to build up motivation to complete my tax return…

    261. Where does everyone say hello?

      In the Scottish hi-lands…

      (Thanks Alexa!)

    262. Robert Hughes says:

      WTF relevance do ” 45% of responses ” from outside Scotland have to issues concerning ( in both senses ) people in Scotland ? Who were the people consulted and what form did that consultation take ?
      Ah well at least ( my funny ) Vic Valentine is happy . Gonna be a big Pronoun Party tonight .

      Maybe there’ll be another international consultation about changing the name to Scottish Nominative Party . Though the word ” Scottish ” might be deemed a bit racist .

      Glad the ” Greenock Incident ” has been downplayed by Polis Scotland . Of course not without first be disseminated by the ALBA-Bad fuckwits

    263. Alf Baird says:

      James Che @ 12:50 pm

      “If language defines wether a people are indigenous to their country as part and parcel of the inclusiveness,
      then we look to other countries for confirmation of our ever developing language of the Scots. And recognised country.”

      Aye, oor ain braw langage – helps forge our national identity and explains why the oppression brought about by enforced Linguistic Imperialism represents a key driver of any ‘peoples’ quest for independence. Most peoples in self-determination conflict are linguistically divided and the Scots are a clear example:

    264. Sensible Dave says:

      Ian Brotherhood 10:02 am

      You wrote “Regardless of how much we may disagree about franchise-related stuff, it’s a fair bet that there’s more discussion happening here than at the highest levels of the Scottish government. And that, surely, tells its own story.”

      It truly does Ian. It shows that even on a platform as clear in is aims as Wings – that there is a huge range of views on the subject. And, those range of views are being voiced by Scots.

      So, to be clear, folk in England are not talking about the “franchise” for an indyref2. As the polls show, folk in ENgland are generally ambivalent on the subject of scottish indpendence and even more ambivalent of the franchise questions.

      Whilst people like the Rev (whose credentials for theb independence cause are beyond reproach) holds different views to others here that are equally vociferous on the subject – but from an entirely different stand point – then there is clearly a big issue to resolve within.

      You can’t blame the English, Westminster, Johnson, Tories, colonial masters, etc – just Scots.

    265. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ Sensible Dave (5.09) –

      You’re right, and I do blame Scots, especially those amongst our ‘intelligentsia’ who either choose to avoid the issues (because they’re doing quite nicely, thanks) or just can’t be bothered.

      Three minutes walk from my home is the Ayrshire coastline, and I can stand there and see the water beneath which there are massive reserves of oil and gas. And yesterday, our energy supplier informed us, by text, that our monthly bill is to increase by £90. That’s £90 on top of the £160 we already pay.

      We’ll manage, because there are four of us in the household, all earning more or less, so we’ll just have to forego a treat here and there. But what of those who are already subsisting, and are having £20 ‘vanished’ from their income? What about the pensioners who will die before this winter is over? Prices are going up while the size of the products shrinks. They’re cutting the salami at both ends as it is.

      There’s no point in blaming Tories. They were aye beasts and always will be. But that’s long understood. What I don’t understand, and never ever will, is how someone like Nicola Sturgeon can continue to issue pious rhetoric about dastardly Tories while pursuing a policy agenda that is of next-to-no interest to the majority of Scots.

      What we voted for, over the past twenty years, couldn’t be clearer. And we’ve never felt further from achieving it than we have in the past two years or so.

      FWIW, I don’t regard myself as ‘racist’, or a bigot, in any way, but I probably am to some people because I support Joanna Cherry and Women Won’t Wheesht, and I do support changing the franchise to exclude the absentee landlords, and chancers with an agenda which revolves around keeping the choicest parts of Scotland’s land, and the best jobs, for themselves.

      They ‘own’ us. That’s their outlook, and it’s pointless denying it. This is the same territory that Alasdair Gray waded into, what, a decade ago (?) and look at the stushie it caused. But he was simply telling the truth that so many Scottish writers and artists daren’t. The fact that some take a fit of the vapours when they hear ‘blood and soil’ doesn’t diminish the reality on the ground. Whether or not this is about ‘colonialism’ isn’t for me to say – we already have enough ‘experts’ on that particular word.

      Bottom line – I don’t want to be part of a movement that hasn’t the balls to confront ‘unpleasant truths’. If we can’t even acknowledge the problems, let alone deal with them, we don’t deserve to be independent.

    266. Meg merrilees says:

      Breeks and co

      If Chris McEleny has been mistakenly cited as causing an affray then he should sue the hell out of the Daily Record and anyone else who has quoted this mistake for damaging his reputation and bringing the ALBA party into disrepute.
      Go for the jugular of the person who notified the Daily Record.

    267. Andy Ellis says:

      @sensible Dave 5.09 pm

      Unusually I tend to agree with much of your post: still, even a broken clock is right twice a day, huh? :-p

      The past few months – and particularly the franchise change debate – have been a bit of an eye opener. Perhaps it was to be expected after the earlier (and perhaps more visceral and I’d say politically significant?) debate about self-ID, GRA reform and what many of us see as a regressive and misogynistic attack on women’s rights.

      Your closing remark is right sadly, and many within the movement have been saying the same. It feels strange in some ways to find yourself on the other side of debates from people you’d generally considered had a similar outlook. Assumptions can be wrong of course, and perhaps in the years after 2014 it was a continuation from the indyref1 “big tent” approach and glib the “eyes on the prize” mantra.

      Issues like franchise change and the “Scotland as colony” narrative may both be moot given there is hardly likely to be any significant progress on independence in the next several years, but (like gender woo) they do have the potential to atomise the movement and impact on the eventual campaign, what policies people support, and what kind of “better nation” people want to see.

      After witnessing the descent of the SNP over the past few years, its othering of people who wouldn’t uncritically accept the TWAW mantra, the attempted fit up of Alex Salmond, the abuse of Joanna Cherry and others, the failure to act on #indyref2, I often wondered how I’d be able to campaign shoulder to shoulder with those supporting them, particularly hard core Nicola cultists.

      Constructing a future majority isn’t going to be easy but I have my doubts that the future campaign is going to be much like the last one, or even the few years immediately after. I don’t have any answers, but agree there are big issues to resolve. Perhaps something unexpected will happen, but it’s difficult to be optimistic at present, so on that at least I even agree with Ian Brotherhood.

    268. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Robert Hughes 4.58: yes, a world-wide consultation is a great way of pochling the vote.

      At the moment the SG is consulting on this in various island communities:

      On the face of it, it could offer up to £50,000 per family to encourage them to stay in or relocate to such communities. I would hope that any responses would choose that the money should be used to retain the local population rather than to attract people from outwith these islands, since one big problem is that the indigenous youth often simply cannot afford house prices or rents and eventually have to move away: a perennial problem, as we all know.

      However, given the woke/globalist nature of our “Scottish ” Government, it did cynically occur to me that responses to the “Ethnicity” section of the demographic question might suggest to it that the existing island communities were “painfully white” or “not sufficiently diverse” for its new “unicorn and rainbow” vision of Scotland and so the locals would be the last persons liable for some financial help.

      Cue further weakening of the autochthonous population? A few years ago I would never have thought our government would do such a thing, but now I hae ma doots, Poindexters.

      I hope Kate Forbes and other island MSPs are watching the responses closely and are aware of the overwhelming local need for affordable housing so that communities can retain their skilled and educated young people.

    269. Robert Hughes says:

      Ian B @ 6.00

      100% . To add insult to injury , the apex of the Class-System that * fanny dancer * Sturgeon was so graciously greeting the other day ,the parasite-in-chief Betty Dos , in * our * Parliament , is to be compensated for a fall in profits caused by ,oh guess , the fuckn Pantomimedemic : what a leveller down that is proving to be eh ?

      At a time when the * common * man/woman is being assailed on all sides by sky-rocketing energy bills , job losses/uncertainty and social shortages of various kinds , these scourges of society are being offered – and accepting – * compensation * for not making their usual shitloads of cash, and * our * beyond contempt , utterly useless representatives are unable or unwilling to maximise the outrages – of those to whom they’ve handed the power to determine our fate – to our advantage , by driving home constantly why Scotland is being savaged not solely by the current vicious clown show in WM , more fundamentally by our subservient position within the dysfunctional * marriage * that is the Union .

      As you say , it’s infuriating that the SNP/GOV’s only response is faux-outrage and empty rhetoric , and then doing fuck-all about it . They are for sure more contemptible than the Tories – once cunts always cunts – and are failing on just about every front

    270. Hatuey says:

      Of course, many people in England are every bit as colonised as we are. They’re getting fleeced too, by the same people, and no doubt sick of watching rich outsiders buy up their homes, land, and everything else worth having, just as we are.

      The one thing we have in our favour is our nationhood. In an international system based on nationhood, being recognised as a nation is quite a big deal. The downtrodden of England’s poor regions must envy us.

      Nobody worth listening to denies that Scotland is a nation, not even vile Tories. It’s time to capitalise on that nationhood and if that means we are nationalists then so be it.

      Independence is nothing without a nation — it doesn’t make sense — just as a nation is nothing without a people.

      We are the people of the nation of Scotland. And I refuse to apologise for that in a country where I can’t buy a carton of milk without Union fucking Jacks on it.

    271. Robert Hughes says:

      Hatuey .

      * Thumbs up * .

      Of course people in England are as subject to the deprivations of our ruling class as we ourselves are , but too many there are happy enough to vote Tory : bizarrely believing it’s in their interests to do so , and not really giving much of a fuck about anyone else .

    272. Tommo says:

      The ‘attempt’ by the SNP/Nicla to pass unlawful legislation (Struck down by the Supreme Court) is probably carefully considered as it ;
      a) Winds up her base like poking a swarm of bees and
      b) Provides her with a cast-iron excuse for not holding a ‘Wildcat’ referendum which ( I believe their polling probably shows) they would lose-and the raison d’etre of their whole publicly-funded circus would be gone
      Just a thought -and yes I am for the Union (However I am sad if this website is to be discontinued as it does at least show arguments I would not otherwise have heard)

    273. Robert Hughes says:

      ” Depravations “

    274. Alf Baird says:

      Hatuey @ 8:16 pm

      “Of course, many people in England are every bit as colonised as we are.”

      One might equally argue that this is not the case and, moreover, what happens in England is arguably a matter for the English. We need to consider here the wider impacts of colonialism in which a peoples’ culture and language (and hence their ethnicity) is intentionally made inferior in order for a dominant colonial power and culture to exploit them and their resources, and resulting in:

      – a cultural and ethnic division of labour favouring the dominant culture and language (Hechter)
      – using the colony to serve primarily the needs of the ‘mother country’, leading to under-development of the colony
      – socio-linguistic prejudice becoming institutionalised
      – a meritocratic elite and cultural hegemony favouring the dominant (Anglophone) culture/language
      – resulting in institutionalised inequality of the ‘subordinate’ ethnic group (i.e. the Scots)
      – leading to development of psychological conditions, e.g.: internalised racism among native population (Cultural Cringe’); schizoid personality (lacking confidence); colonial mindset (acceptance of deprivation and oppressions etc as ‘deserved’)

      This is no doubt why the UN continues to describe colonialism as ‘a scourge’, i.e. a form of punishment and oppression on a people, and calls for its ending through self-determination independence – which is their ‘inalienable right’ and should not necessarily be confused with contemporary perceptions of what may or may not be considered ‘democracy’.

    275. Robert Hughes says:


      It’s just as likely their ” polling probably shows ” they would win .

      You no doubt have your reasons for believing we’re Better Together – though what they could be is mystifying to me – but you must be aware – from reading here if nothing else – that many people consider the current SNP/Gov an aberration and a perversion of how we envision an Independent Scotland .

      Someone said above a reason to be apprehensive about Independence is the prospect of the Sturgeon regime having carte blanche to continue their demented policies . I think that’s nonsense : in the unlikely event we became Independent under Sturgeon she would suffer the same fate as Churchill , the great Saviour of the Nation – kicked-out on his arse in the post-war

    276. Robert Hughes says:

      ….General Election

    277. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      The problem that we Yessers have is that we are reading the input on here daily. Therefore, we are up to speed with all that is wrong with the SNP, both party and government. Even Sensible Dave gets it.

      However, the average bloke or wifie on the Fintry bus is blissfully unaware of what’s going on, because The Courier or Tully doesn’t tell them.

      We, as Yessers, have to be more proactive in taking the truths to those who get their info from the MSM.

      There really has to be a rise in the number of Yes stalls, and so on, nationwide. Indyposterboy’s graphics could go a long way to inform.

      The “ordinary people” have to be shown that the struggle for independence hasn’t gone away, despite Sturgeon’s utterances. That’s where the pro-indy marches come in as well. Let the public see!

      That’s why my son and I will be in Glasgow on 6th November, to take part in the AUOB section of the COP26 protest march.

      As Yessers, we have to be visible.

    278. Hatuey says:

      Alf: “We need to consider here the wider impacts of colonialism in which a peoples’ culture and language (and hence their ethnicity) is intentionally made inferior”

      I don’t think it is necessarily intentional. I don’t see how you can dominate anyone without imposing your culture, your values, and a bunch of other things on them. It goes with the uniform, like a by-product of what you are really doing (fleecing).

      At best you could argue that cultural and ethnic domination is a predictable and useful consequence of what they do. But I don’t think anyone in British history held that as an end in itself — the end was and is economic plunder.

      It’s important to to bear in mind what comes first, though — the economic exploitation. The ethnic, cultural, racial superiority stuff comes second and is typically used to justify the exploitation; it essentially stops when the economic exploitation stops.

    279. Hatuey says:

      Robert Hughes: “too many there are happy enough to vote Tory : bizarrely believing it’s in their interests to do so , and not really giving much of a fuck about anyone else”

      I think a lot of people are really doing that out of disgust with the Labour Party. They feel like they’ve been marginalised and stabbed in the back by the party that’s supposed to look out for them.

      Most of us here, I’d imagine, can relate to that.

      Of course, a lot of people in England are pretty well off and vote Tory instinctively as the party that is most likely to keep taxes down, protect their wealth, and protect the sources of their wealth (the status quo).

      That happens in Scotland too but there are simply fewer people up here in that category, for obvious reasons.

    280. John Main says:

      @Robert Hughes 9:14

      Poor analogy with Churchill there. He was kicked out on his arse in 1945 but he was back in 1951.

    281. sarah says:

      @ BDTT “we Yessers have to be visible..”.

      Absolutely right. And if we can make Nicola Sturgeon so invisible as to allow some indy SNP MSPs room to act, even better.

    282. Tannadice Boy says:

      No worries folks it’s all sorted. Nicola Sturgeon has given as a rare insight into her strategic masterplan. “She has time on her side”. Doubling down on Angus Robertsons mistake last year. 55,000 No voters are dying every year. We just have to wait. (I know it’s from the FT). But sell that message on the street. No positive vision, no energising of the masses, no plan for the betterment of the people of Scotland. Zilch, nada, nowt, ad infinitum.

    283. John Main says:

      @Hatuey 9:55

      You are over complicating things. You can’t exploit anybody or anything against resistance without a superior something, usually superior power or force. The superiority comes first.

      There are not many people who continue to believe themselves superior when the so-called inferior has just given them a bloody nose.

      Interesting discussion on whether the English themselves are colonised. I can’t believe I am the only poster here who ever spends an evening watching commercial TV channels. Anybody who does that would have to be blind to not see the evidence of external cultures, values and concerns that permeate the ads.

      No doubt in my mind that the forces of multi-national neo-liberalism are re-shaping England, as well as Scotland.

    284. Tommo says:

      Robert Hughes-You make a valid point but I agree-your current lot are an ‘aberration and a perversion’ in any rational world. The idea, however .that you can sort things out if they become the governors of an independent nation is -in my view-fanciful; you can’t control their excesses as it stands
      That said I’m grateful for your courtesy; as the son of an Argyll mother, a father from Carmarthenshire- and fluent Welsh speaker-you may understand why the Union is important to me .
      Anyway, fare well

    285. James Che. says:

      Alf Baird.

      School Education is an area that this colonialism certainly took place in the 70s, 80s and so on which included the next generation of my family,

      Excluding Scottish words in the class room was normal, excluding local Scottish history in school History was also normal, and then you can guess the attitude in what was the English class.
      Geography was usually about where the battles that Scotland had with England in which Scots lost the battle.
      But we did get history on the Battle of Britain, 1st world war, battles with France an Spain etc,

      I notice with the third generation and with the influx of advertising Scottish holidays, staycations, adverts for farms and big estate lands for sale, and the large increase in new ( British? ) housing market names that have appeared in Scotland
      The new nuance is to teach newcomers and holidaymakers during Covid, what is left of the Scottish language and sayings,

      Scotland is under stages of colonialism,
      Perhaps there are others here whom are old enough to remember how bias teachers taught Scottish education.

    286. James Che. says:

      Update on family health..

      3 deaths in our family this month, one funeral tomorrow.
      All double vaccinated.
      Two of them died with kidney failure

      Lived in different parts of Scotland
      Two were in-laws.

      Mum an still hanging in there. No vaccine taken,

      Sister-law now Ill and still had no further medicine from doctors for a constant month long cough,
      She has had double vaccines and on waiting list for CT scan.

      The purpose of putting this on here is for public record keeping,

    287. Robert Hughes says:

      John Main

      Yes he was : my point was that his status as war leader didn’t prevent him losing when you would have thought he had the best chance of winning , amidst the euphoria of having won the war . More accurately , the relief that the war was over

      That he was reelected a few years later is down to the social/economic conditions at the time – as always . And maybe also to the inherently * conservative * nature of the electorate

    288. Hatuey says:

      John Main, we are talking about ‘ends’ not ‘means’. It goes without saying that the coloniser has the means.

      You say “superiority comes first” but in the case of the English colonies in India it didn’t. For the first 100 or so years, right through the 17th century, the British presence and role in India was negligible.

      If they considered themselves superior, they kept quiet about it as they went around the country scrounging. And actually one of the big problems they faced almost immediately was that they didn’t really have anything to offer in trade and so they had to pay for everything in silver which caused quite serious problems for England.

      The idea that England went around the world blasting its Empire into existence is revisionist fantasy. That’s true of Scotland’s relationship with England too which, as you know, was consummated with a treaty not an invasion or a fight (and I’m aware that some believe that Treaty was signed under duress but it’s difficult to reconcile that position with the role of Scottish nobles who showed no sign of acting under duress as they filled their boots).

    289. Breeks says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      7 October, 2021 at 6:13 pm

      If Chris McEleny has been mistakenly cited as causing an affray then he should sue the hell out of the Daily Record and anyone else who has quoted this mistake for damaging his reputation and bringing the ALBA party into disrepute.
      Go for the jugular of the person who notified the Daily Record.

      True, but given recent events, I would want to establish whether this was a “mistake”, or another political hatchet job stitch-up, but the story broke too early in the press first, before the conspiracy / police case was fully hatched and trumped up evidence put in place. It might be construed that the Press didn’t get the Vietnam WhatsApp memo, or maybe there was a different Lord Advocate and COPFS who didn’t “get the message”.

      I’m also curious to know whether the particular close door in question was covered by video surveillance. It would seem from comments that Chris was unaware of any police investigation, which seems oddly inconsistent with his later arrest… if the arrest actually happened.

      Something very strange going on, but without more info, there’s a high probability of drawing 2+2=5 conclusions.

      Chris McEleney also seems fairly quiet about this.. All very strange.

    290. Hatuey says:

      James Che, sorry to hear of your losses btw. Your tribe is having a rough old time.

    291. Sensible Dave says:

      Hautey 10.06

      You wrote “Of course, a lot of people in England are pretty well off and vote Tory instinctively as the party that is most likely to keep taxes down, protect their wealth, and protect the sources of their wealth (the status quo).”

      … spoken like someone who hasn’t got a clue!

      Politically, there appears to be a difference in “politics” between the “English” and other countries in the Union. Of course, folk like you seek the easy (insulting?) explanation that, in effect, the “English” vote an act of pure selfishness. It is my observation that most folk vote on the basis of what they believe is best for the country – and that often comes down to the historic right/left positioning.

      Corporation Tax is a good example. Folk want the government to receive more Corporation tax receipts. In simple terms, in knee jerk fashion, the “left” think the way you achieve that is to put up Corporation Tax rates.

      Then we have the facts! Prior to covid screwing things up, over the last 10 years, Corporation tax receipts have been increasing dramatically – in a background where Corporation Tax rates have been reduced!

      It works. It absolutely, undeniably works.

      So, given that the objective of the government is to gather more Corporation Tax, the policy is a huge success. But “lefties” can’t accept that. They love to do the easy “Tory greedy” stuff – completely ignoring the actual results. They grandstand on the “tax the rich” “soak business” mantras – because that suits their political agenda which is about division, class wars, etc.

      In the end, every single penny a government spends is sourced from businesses. The Corporation tax graphs over the last 10 years show that if you reduce tax rates – you get more tax.

      Don’t take my word for it. Go and look it up yourselves.

      … just one small example of a different way of thinking – that is, perhaps, more prevalent in England than Scotland?

    292. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Robert Hughes & tommo

      In the good old days I think most of us assumed that immediately post indy the SNP would probably still be in a fairly dominant position. If the past few years have shown us anything it is that it’s been a huge strategic mistake for the movement to put all its eggs in the one SNP badged basket.

      Surely one of the biggest things to look forward to post independence is a recasting of the Scottish political environment? Holyrood post indy is likely to be a much different place than it has been as a devolutionary platform. The SNP will face a lot more competition and the prospect of significant sections of its support spinning off to other parties. Good!

    293. Sensible Dave says:

      …. Continued

      For those that can’t do the research themselves ….

    294. Robert Hughes says:

      Tannadice Boy @ 10.24

      Yes , this is the visionary masterplan …. “I’ve got democracy on my side?.?.?.?if they think it’s about playing a waiting game, I’ve probably got time on my side as well.” . Note the identification of our entire aspiration with she/herself …” I’VE got ” . The only pronoun that matters to her – I .

      Nothing else required . The Grim Reaper ( being a * Nationalist * , obviously ) will be the salvation of the Dim Gatekeeper and only harvest the lives of Unionists . Genius .

      Great , that’s THAT sorted . In the ( interminable ) interim let’s turn Scotland into a laughing stock fit only for middle class ” New Scot ” home bargain hunters , unhinged gender ideologues and passengers on the gravy train to * Independence * nb a location twinned with Nowheresville .

      Just when you think NSNP have reached the nadir of deceitful incompetence , they go and prove you wrong . They have a way reaching hitherto unknown depths of uselessness .

    295. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Friends of Wings gathering, Glasgow, very central venue. Sat 16th October. From mid-afternoonish until late.

      (Not giving venue name until nearer the time, although it’s all booked for sure.)

      No tickets etc, just let us know, right here, if you’re planning to attend, and then turn up on the day. Bring a bag of crisps or nuts if you like.

      If you prefer, you can email me ianbhood [at] gmail [dot] com



    296. Robert Hughes says:

      Andy @ 8.20

      Indeed . I find it almost impossible to believe we’ll become Independent under the present regime – it will only happen – if it ever does – despite Sturgeon , not because of her , and if so , yes , we would expect to see other Parties competing to take us forward

    297. Pixywine says:
      If only the BBC cared enough about “balance” to regularly feature the other side of a raging debate that has passed over many heads.

    298. Ottomanboi says:

      The English/British imperial destiny was set on its course by that fateful treaty. It brought the troublesome Scots officially within England’s political sphere allowing them to forcefully pacify the country, divide it and rule it and during the 18th and 19th centuries re-educate, with much local help, the population to their subordinate status. Good practice for dealing with the Mughals and the milch cow India.
      The French, Portuguese and Dutch all might have «taken» India but they did not. The venality of the English approach won over even that of the Dutch, who also played very dirty.

    299. Pixywine says:

      Given the widening chasm between rich and poor do the political class have any idea what they are bringing about? The latest outrage from Westminster being a proposed 20,000 a year pay rise for MPs. They live like Marie Antoinette.

    300. Republicofscotland says:

      No Police Scotland complaints, no complaints either from the SNP ran Glasgow city council, no threats of time moving or anything like that, about tomorrow’s indy march through Glasgow, maybe its because Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford is speaking at the event.

    301. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Robert Hughes 8:45pm
      You are pushing against an open door with me. I find the whole thing very sad almost montypython-esqe.

    302. Alf Baird says:

      Hatuey @ 1:22 am

      “John Main, we are talking about ‘ends’ not ‘means’. It goes without saying that the coloniser has the means. You say “superiority comes first” ”

      As historian Prof Tom Devine established, much of Scotland’s nobility and elite was already heavily anglicised by the late 1600s post the Union of the Crowns in 1603, and many held estates and titles in both Scotland and England, with marriage also a common feature between the elites of the two nations, and with education for sons of Scots noblemen also occurring in England.

      By the time of union in 1706-7 the supposedly’ superior’ Anglophone culture of much of the Scottish nobility/elite would already be favourable to alliance with England, so long as individual interests were protected. Many of them had by this time cast aside much of the vulgar ‘Scotticisms’ as Hume proudly stated, the aspiration to become English gentlemen in speech, dress and manner more or less complete.

      Post union the Scottish bourgeoisie subsequently followed suit, helped in turn by the creation of Anglophone ‘colonial’ (private) schools and by a public education system which to this day still considers the Scots language as invalid/inferior (and hence not taught) which serves to perpetuate socio-linguistic prejudice against Scots speakers; and therein lies the root of our inequality, as well as the main divide in the Yes/No vote, which is cultural and linguistic, two key factors in development of national identity and national consciousness.

      So yes, as John Main suggests, in Scotland ‘the superiority comes first’, and it did, and it will persist until Scotland is truly independent. Which reflects Fanon’s view that independence and hence decolonization is primarily about a people reclaiming their ‘moribund culture and rusted tongue’, and casting out the imposed oppressive culture… and its language.

    303. robbo says:

      Sensible Dave says:
      8 October, 2021 at 8:21 am
      …. Continued

      For those that can’t do the research themselves ….


      Spiffing old chap., lovely jubbly. Now where’s my f’king GIRO

    304. Breeks says:

      Alf Baird says:
      8 October, 2021 at 9:45 am

      …So yes, as John Main suggests, in Scotland ‘the superiority comes first’, and it did, and it will persist until Scotland is truly independent. Which reflects Fanon’s view that independence and hence decolonization is primarily about a people reclaiming their ‘moribund culture and rusted tongue’, and casting out the imposed oppressive culture… and its language.

      Aye, but show me a colonised Nation with so much Constitutional protection for it’s people, enshrined in documents and treaties which still physically exist, underwritten by centuries of provenance, vibrant good will towards Scotland from abroad, yet a nation which does so little to defend these existential constitutional rights? Nowhere throughout history has any nation so embraced it’s own colonisation, and you only need to look as far as Sturgeon to see it actually happening today.

      Pass me the sick bucket when you’re done with it.

      But! Before we deride ourselves and despair at our inaction, I would also point out that nowhere throughout history has any Nation been subjected to the sophistication of the Unionist monopoly on broadcasting, and the daily indoctrination of the Scottish people across all media platforms. We are digitally anaesthetised on a daily basis, and our pro independence narrative flounders without gaining traction because it is deliberately starved of exposure and unfettered debate or discussion. That is a new phenomenon peculiar to our age.

      Defend your Constitutional rights Scotland, or lose them. Sadly, the vast majority of Scots don’t know what their constitutional rights actually are, hence the befuddled frustration and feckless stagnation. People don’t know where to mount their attack when all routes seem hopelessly compromised. The indoctrination runs very deep.

      I seem to have had a comment go astray, so apologies if it appears and I’m repeating myself, but Scotland needs to start building the case for Independence outside and removed from Westminster, and Westminster’s puppet assembly, Holyrood.

      Scotland must muster it’s strength under it’s Constitutional Banner, and begin to discredit and repulse all colonial encroachment which has imprisoned Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.

      Don’t start mumping and grumping about voting franchise… Sovereignty is a point of law, it’s not about winning a popularity contest. Scotland being sovereign by definition means Westminster isn’t, and no amount of shady unwritten convention can make it otherwise.

      Scotland, I’m my opinion, needs Joanna Cherry burning down the false house of cards masquerading as Westminster’s “Parliamentary Sovereignty”, and all it’s innumerable unwritten Conventions. Since 1320, Scotland has it’s own Sovereign Convention, and it IS written down, it has the statutory recognition of it’s day, it has centuries of undisputed provenance, and it has reaffirmed it’s existence and primacy every time the Claim of Right has been contested.

    305. Robert Hughes says:


      Hmmm , I’m getting a bit fed-up listening to J Cherry ( rightly ) complaining about the treatment she has received , and the support she hasn’t received , at the hands of the Cult yet choosing to remain inside that now beyond redemption Party .

      Why ? Is she playing a similar waiting ( for Godot ) game ?

    306. Alf Baird says:

      Breeks @ 11.22

      “Scotland, I’m my opinion, needs Joanna Cherry burning down the false house of cards masquerading as Westminster’s “Parliamentary Sovereignty”, and all it’s innumerable unwritten Conventions.”

      The majority of Scotland’s supposedly ‘Nationalist’ MPs and MSPs have been given innumerable electoral mandates to assert Scottish sovereignty yet have thus far refused to do so. They will probably not do so until they are able to sufficiently differentiate between a peoples’ ‘inalienable right to self-determination (and hence decolonisation), and whatever the prevailing ideals of ‘democracy’ may or may not be.

    307. Hatuey says:

      Alf, true as all that is, the anglophone culture and language as you describe was not imposed on us by England before 1707. The situation you describe suggests some Scottish people voluntarily embraced it, just as in earlier centuries French was widely embraced across Europe.

      As the nation state system hardened, naturally within states there was a hardening of stuff like culture, language, customs, standards, etc. Some countries opted to have more than one official language, for example, but most — I would guess for reasons of convenience and clarity — elected to have one and elevated it above all others, making it the official national language.

      If I was asked to create a country out of a bunch of disparate territories where people were all speaking different languages, celebrating different things, taking holidays at different times, applying different standards, etc., etc., the first thing I’d plan to do is homogenise them so that we were all on the same page.

      I wouldn’t relish doing that since I know nation states are fake constructs and are prone to terrible behaviour, but, if I had to make a country, I don’t know how else you could do it.

      I know you are ‘all in’ with this stuff but we can’t sacrifice historical accuracy at the altar of Marxism just because it’s more fun or suits our politics. In Scotland we were burning witches right up to and beyond 1707 — is that the sort of cultural trait we are to mourn.

    308. Hatuey says:

      Sensible Dave: “folk like you seek the easy (insulting?) explanation that, in effect, the “English” vote an act of pure selfishness.”

      Lol. Go Google “rational choice model”.

      A dunderheid if ever there was one.

    309. Hatuey says:

      Ottoman: “The English/British imperial destiny was set on its course by that fateful treaty.”

      Your sequencing is all wrong though. England was well established in India before 1707. Blueprints are generally supposed to come before construction begins, not after.

      I think the big appeal for England with the Treaty of 1707 was stability, allowing it to direct funds away from military force towards its navy. They were basically using “ship loads” as a unit of measure by 1707, in terms of trade and success, comparing themselves with Portugal and other European countries.

      We underestimate the importance of trade back then when we suppose it was all about power and empire. For most people it was about making a living, tea, sugar, spices, textiles, and a bunch of other things that people in Europe craved.

      As the English were importing all those much sought after things throughout the 17th century, Scotland was exporting its famously impoverished people to the world.

      I know it doesn’t sit well but it’s a simple statement of fact that the vast majority of Scottish people were much better off after the treaty of 1707 than they were before it.

    310. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Breeks says:

      “Defend your Constitutional rights Scotland, or lose them. Sadly, the vast majority of Scots don’t know what their constitutional rights actually are, hence the befuddled frustration and feckless stagnation. People don’t know where to mount their attack when all routes seem hopelessly compromised. The indoctrination runs very deep. ”
      It’s not so much that the vast majority of Scots don’t know what their constitutional rights actually are, I’m afraid the vast majority don’t even know that they HAVE constitutional rights.

      Being colonised and that is what we are today, means accepting a superior authority to rule over us. We become subjects and not citizens.

      Apart from Bannockburn and Culloden, maybe also the Stone of Scone, most folk won’t even know what the Dec. o. Arbroath or Claim o. Rights is. Errrh.. smokies?? Errrh guaranties?? My fridge is broken..

      They don’t need to, they have a coloniser to look after the difficult things. The house Jocks do the rest.

      Sovereignty is the baseline, the foundation, the rock which glues together the people of Scotland into a Nation.

      Sovereignty never left us, it was put to sleep, so it’s about time to wake it up and use it.

    311. James Che. says:


      Many Thanks Hatuey.

    312. Chas says:

      This Colonialism/Constitutional rights ‘debate’ is boring.
      I would suggest that at least 95% of all Scots have no interest whatsoever. As soon as I see the big C word in a post I swiftly move on to the next one. I suspect I am not alone!

    313. Republicofscotland says:

      Tory James Brokenshire has died he should be remembered in Scotland for his horrible decisions against immigrants wanting to live and work in Scotland,when he worked at the Home Office.

    314. Breeks says:

      Robert Hughes says:
      8 October, 2021 at 11:33 am

      Hmmm , I’m getting a bit fed-up listening to J Cherry ( rightly ) complaining about the treatment she has received , and the support she hasn’t received , at the hands of the Cult yet choosing to remain inside that now beyond redemption Party .

      Why ? Is she playing a similar waiting ( for Godot ) game ?

      I really don’t know.

      When Cherry was fighting the Article 50 case, and then Boris Johnson’s unlawful prorogation of Parliament, she seemed to be championing Scots Law, and using it to good effect. The next obvious step in that process is to start defending Scotland’s sovereign Constitution.

      Why that hasn’t happened is a genuine puzzle to me.

      It might be that rather than praise and encouragement for her stellar achievements, all Joanna got for her trouble was abuse and undermining by Sturgeon’s Trans Taliban, and consequently Joanna’s confidence took a nosedive. It’s a mightily lonely path you tread when you take on the Establishment, and I suspect you feel even more vulnerable once given that Establishment a bloody nose.

      Joanna Cherry should have been hailed as a true heroine defending Scotland’s rights, but instead we get the halfwit parasites in the SNP’s NEC orchestrating her downfall. What a fucking disgrace.

      So I don’t know. Maybe the screws have been put on JC the same way as all the other pro-Indy high flyers, just a different type of screws.

      What I also wonder is whether Cherry and others staying in the SNP represents a strained belief the SNP can be salvaged if brought under new Leadership, but that needs credible people to still be in the SNP… and that’s a pretty short list these days.

      So if not Joanna Cherry, maybe we need to look towards Gordon Dangerfield, or somebody else, or maybe the Lawyers for YES organisation which I think Joanna Cherry helped set up.

      Hell’s Bells, maybe we phone up the Chagos Islanders and ask who their lawyers were…

    315. James Che. says:

      There needs to be a serious debate about our sovereignty and the documents and provenance of sovereignty within Scotland.

      It is a subject that needs transferring from us to others,
      It is a subject Albe should carry high and relate to its members.
      It should be done by the snp, but they seem to prefer owning it to themselves.

      And this leaves just the grassroots of independence to relay how important sovereignty of the people in Scotland is today when a government seems to be going rogue on its very own people.

      Scottish Parliament wether devolved or not is not sovereign over the Scottish people,
      Nor did the treaty of the union capture it.

      However the Scottish people whom do not understand its significance are indirectly surrendering a people’s treasure box.

      If a book or leaflet on any subject is needed for Scotland and its people.
      This is it.

    316. Ottomanboi says:

      Stability, of sorts, was implied by my ref. to the treaty. The politics may still have been rocky but the cultural implications were not. England, locally, was the top dog and all were required to cower before the new master.
      The English were in India centuries before along with the Portuguese, French, Dutch and «Arabs» but were rather second rate traders. The establishment of the BEIC, modelled on the Dutch version, changed that.
      The notion that Scotland was bankrupt prior to the Union is propaganda. Trade was growing despite English attempts at embargoes. The aristos, having made bad speculative investments, chose an English bale out that put their country up for sale.
      England, let us remember, was in competition with the French, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese it was not in the major league until the end of the 17th century and it was India that made England rich.
      England’s forte is buccaneering privateering. Their casino brand of capitalism reflects that.
      The very quick buck rules.

    317. Republicofscotland says:

      A excellent two-page article by Joanna Cherry in the National today regarding constitutional matters, who’d have thought that the Good Friday Agreement allows Northern Ireland to hold a reunification referendum EVERY seven years, with a 50%+1 result to make it official .

      Yet we have the likes of Gove, Johnson and the Scottish Secretary of State, Alister Jack, (the latter chastised by Professor Tom Devine for not knowing that the border between Scotland and England actually has a function) repeatedly state that Scotland cannot hold another independence referendum for at least twenty-five years, and that a 60% winning margin is required.

      It is also very interesting to note that the UK Supreme Court is not an English court its a UK construct, with the current president and deputy presidents positions held by two Scottish judges

    318. James Che. says:

      Is that Scottish judges in name only, or do the actually uphold Scots law and Scots sovereignty over parliament I wonder.

    319. James Che. says:

      Interesting history.

      Queen Anne around the time of the treaty of the union claimed to be queen of Scotland,
      However she could not claim to be queen of the Scots..

    320. Republicofscotland says:

      Cherry also notes that the relationship within this union, has changed from one from consent, to one based on forced law.

      Cherry states that if we cannot get Westminster around a table to thrash out the negotiations on the next indyref, that will allow the Scottish electorate a vote on constitutional matters, then the next step would be take it into our own hands at the next election, albeit a general election or Scottish election, however the most important aspect before this is to lay the groundwork.

    321. sarah says:

      O/T Chris McEleney: does anybody know the truth about his arrest and being charged, as reported by the Greenock Telegraph 5 hours ago?

      Surely not another COPFS or SNP-inspired arrest of an independence supporter?

    322. Republicofscotland says:

      James Che @1.51pm.

      According to Cherry, the UN Child Rights bill rejected in part by the UKSC, should have no bearing on another indyref, however Cherry did add that the turning down of the UN Child Rights bill in part, introduced by the majority of the Holyrood elected chamber of MSPs was a very keen and strict reading of the law, and that such a keen and strict reading of the law, again, at the UKSC, would undoubtably thwart this particular route to Scottish independence.

    323. Meg merrilees says:

      Perhaps Joanna Cherry believes in trying to change things from the inside – after all, if you leave ‘the club’ you’re hardly likely to be invited back to the discussion table!
      She tried that by getting elected to the NSNP NEC but their malpractice and corruption proved too much even for her.

      Now you have the amazing spectacle of one NSNP MP calling for her to be ejected from the party and no other MP’s thinking that is out of order. What a bunch of scaredy cats! – or are they mesmerised by money and apparent power?

      Worryingly, Nickla,(she/her) seems to think that she has time on her side regarding the next referendum. How wrong can you be?
      There will never again be such disarray down south as there is now. Get your opponent whilst they are distracted, not when they are focused on you!

      She/her seems happy enough to be told to get ‘back in your box’ Scotland by the pretendy Supreme Court – THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES!!!
      Welcome to England’s modern colony – North Britainshire.
      Do as you are told Scotland.

      “Bow to your Imperial Masters”.

      I wonder if delegates travelling to COP 26 will be met by a cyclist playing the Star Wars sound track very loudly up and down Buchanan Street? – great memory from 2014.

    324. Pixywine says:

      Dr Hilarious face is a picture. He looks caught in the act.

    325. Ottomanboi says:

      If there are going to be any demos at COCKUP 26 in Glasgow, this is a very good reason.
      Popular sovereignty and national independence are all at risk if these neo-corporatist, new world order schemers have their way.

    326. The last Sonnet written by Mary Queen Of Scots to her brother in Law Henry 111 of France on the eve of her execution has been found its very sad reading. On the BBC news website there is a story of the Highland clearances Ullapool museum is conducting a 2 year dig at two sites the museum describes the clearances as brutal. I would love to see more research and publicity on this .

    327. twathater says:

      I have been openly vociferous about Joanna Cherry’s failure to use her apparent extensive legal knowledge alongside others to challenge the refusal of the clown and his circus to agree to a referendum ,

      WHAT is behind the LACK of challenge , are we REALLY sovereign ??, is pervert Sturgeon stopping her ,is she aware of a greater threat to our freedom , is SHE compromised in some way ,is a challenge untenable , is she happy just to trough it like the rest of the craven COWARDS , Does she care that Scotland is being R /aped of our resources and food banks are multiplying , does she care that our children , pensioners and families are facing dire times

      WHY won’t she MOVE , or why would someone subject herself to ongoing and continuous threats and harassment from perverts and deviants without some form of revenge being utilised ,WHY won’t she join ALBA away from the t raitors and fight alongside AS to DESTROY Sturgeon and her lies and corruption

    328. John Main says:

      In other news, the Jackdaw gas field development in the North Sea has been knocked back.

      People will have little choice but to buy gas this winter, but for reasons that escape me, our governing elites prefer that the jobs and profits go abroad. Extraordinary virtue-signalling when you consider that with gas prices at an all-time high, our governing elites stood to rake in considerable revenues that would help fund the usual good causes they supposedly care so much about.

      Maybe they prefer to raise these revenues by screwing more out of the little people.

      Hell, they could even have ring-fenced the revenues to help fund the transition to renewable energy. Not one extra therm of gas would have been burned as a result of doing that and ordinary people would have been further along the road to renewable, affordable, environmentally-friendly energy.

      But no, gas will be burned, but not our gas. Jobs will be created, profits will be earned, and taxes will be raked in. But not our jobs, our profits, or taxes that will benefit us.

    329. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Doreen A. Milne (28th Sept) –

      If you’re still interested in attending the Friends of Wings gathering in Glasgow on the 16th, please email me for details.

      ianbhood [at] gmail [dot] com


    330. thomas says:


      Is that hatuey the new labour unionist sitting on here trying to tell us scotland was better off after the union than before it?

      Christ that man talks some fecking cac.

      Read any historin , including unionists of the period , and they will tel you the opposite , how scotland joined the accusrsed union with england ,and as michael lynch points out , the economy went into freefall for the next 9 decades.

      As for darien…….copied and paster from mad jock mcmadds site……

      Myth number one – Scotland was bankrupt in 1707.

      Well , no, it was not.

      The Burghs were cash rich and the Scottish economy in the decade prior to 1707 was growing at 2.5% per annum according to research by the historian Michael Lynch. So who was bankrupt? Well that was the Scottish land owners who had mortgaged their lands to fund the Darien Scheme and if they had not been bailed out by Westminster, the Burgh middle classes would have taken control of Scotland – something the English Government could not allow. The ‘Whig’ English Government had also been buying off the Jacobite Lords in Scotland to ensure the Hanoverian succession at the cost of a £1 million a year ( £1 billion in today’s money). Further the Jacobite Lords were playing the ‘we could ask the French for help’ card which meant ‘Horse Guards’ had to keep English Regiments on the Scottish Border that were needed by Marlborough in continental Europe to prop up England’s war against France.

      What actually happened was the incoming Tory Government of the day decided they were not gaining anything as Defoe quickly reported that most of the ‘Jacobite Lords’ were unlikely to support James’ VIIth claim on the thrones of Scotland and England so shifted the bribes from the ‘Jacobite Lords’ to the Tory inclined Scottish Lowland Lords who were in trouble with their Darien mortgage repayments coming due and being in danger of defaulting – the ‘parcel o rogues’ of Burns poem. The English Parliament needed the Union to secure their Northern border once and for all and created pressure to persuade the Scots that ‘Union’ was a good idea – one of which was siding with the Spanish to ensure Darien failed and another passing laws to exclude Scottish traders from all England’s colonies by imposing excessive duties.

    331. thomas says:

      The Parasite attacks:

      Within 2 years of 1707 the Scottish economy, which had been growing by 2.5% per annum in the decade prior to 1707 was in free fall and by 1710 had collapsed and was stagnating. The Burghs saw their industrial and trading base wiped out, as their export markets were closed and the influx of cheap English goods (while the quid pro quo of trade with the English colonies was blocked by the East India Company through tariffs and trading restrictions). The impoverishment of the Burghs meant the increasing poverty of their inhabitants with numerous riots against the Union continuing. The Jacobite Lords were also unhappy with the loss of their ‘Jock Gelt’ and the stability that England had thought it had gained on its Northern border was once more threatened by the Jacobite’s in Scotland. Even the supporters of the Union who were now ‘commissioners’ had woken up to the pig in a poke they had bought into and the 4th Lord Selkirk, in attempt to head off the Jacobite unrest and powder keg of the grinding poverty in the Burghs, sought to have the Treaty annulled in 1714 but was ‘talked out’ by English MPs. The Commissioners learnt they were very small fish in a large shark pool and now England had what it wanted they were there to be humoured and bought off for their silence.

      For the next 70 years Scotland was derided by Westminster at every turn – Dr Johnson spoke for most London intellectuals and Westminster politicians deriding ‘Scotch’ mannerisms and attitudes at every turn – the idea of the ‘Scotch’ heading for London on the ‘make’ and being whiny, a chip on the shoulder and dependent on English largess has a long and tedious history. Yet the growing English Empire was increasingly dependent on these whiny but far better educated ‘Scotch’ to run their colonies. The sphincter tightening events of 1745-46 changed attitudes in London and Westminster to some extent but the real impact of the ’45 rebellion was to turn Scotland into a defacto colony run by a ‘viceroy’ in London. A state that did not alter until 1999 and one the current coalition are trying to re-impose with Calman minus. As Westminster now thought of Scotland, when it did, in colonial terms it is not surprising that breaches of the Treaty of Union came thick and fast, all to the detriment of the Scottish people and Scotland’s economy but sold as for the ‘greater good’ of Empire.

      Because of the grinding poverty in Scotland the emptying of the land began, first in the central and southern areas with the likes of the 5th Lord Selkirk encouraging landless tenants and others to take ship to Canada where he funded the creation of the ‘Red River Colony’ ; now Manitoba. The first and main clearance that occurs in Scotland is by and large forced on the Scots by the crushing of their economy, loss of income and is voluntary, though encouraged by land owners by offers of free transport, this in turn leads the major landowners to shift land use to more profitable inhabitants – the woolly maggots – a move which comes to a head early in the next century with the violence of the Sutherland Clearances.

      The transition of the Scottish language has been better covered in a series of features in Newsnet but there are some linguists who consider the deliberate Anglicisation of Broad Scots was part of the process of colonisation as the middle and professional classes in Scotland became very aware that without the ‘Queens English’ they were not going anywhere in UK society very fast – the plum jobs went to Scot’s who could speak with ‘bools in their mooth’. The Scotland of Victorian times was epitomised by the romantic novels of Walter Scott and the paintings of Landseer and to this day many English folk still claim to find the Scottish accent unintelligible – often ironic when the comment comes from some one havering in an estuarine Essex accent. One social impact on this overt attack on Scottish culture was the increasing insularity and parochialness of the bulk of Scots – represented in their reactionary nature to any change – the ‘aye beens’. This resentment towards the languages of Scotland – both Gael and Lallands – is still alive and well in the letters columns of Scotland’s media but why anyone would want to talk like Malcolm Rifkind, who sounds as if he has a permanent poker up his fundament, I just do not know.

    332. thomas says:

      As for scotlands language and the anglicisation we have suffered to the extent most scots dont know their own language , alf baird has it spot on , and one day , someone will write scotlands native language history , and english that we speak today plays a small part in that.

    333. Tenruh says:

      Joanna Cherry was elected on a SNP ticket and has a loyalty to the public who elected her under that banner. She should be applauded for her loyalty

    334. Republicofscotland says:

      “Ullapool museum is conducting a 2 year dig at two sites the museum describes the clearances as brutal.”

      david Ritchie @4.41pm.

      David, indeed they were, though they were described as “improvements” by the land owners the Sutherland clearances began with removing families that had often served the landowners ancestors for generations sometimes in battles. At first the Highlanders were allowed to remove items furniture, goods and even timbers from their homes, but as the clearances began to pick up pace, the those put in charge of evicting them, such as the notorious Mr Sellar, began burning the Highlanders homes the minute they arrived on the scene to evict them.

      This led to several old and sick folk lying in their beds to die in the ensuing fires, a few were dragged or carried out by neighbours or relatives, most did not survive the night. What’s more the church ministers took the sides of the land owners representatives they were effectively henchmen, the Highlanders were deeply religious and looked to their clergy men for guidance and advice on what to do.

      Many of those evicted who had nothing had to sleep on the land (shoreline) that wasn’t fit for farming they ate cockles and whatever they could scavenge. Those who were lucky enough to possess a cow, mixed cows blood with oats and fried it to sustain them. The notorious Mr Sellar was tried in Inverness Sheriff court in 1816 for his zealous actions on evicting Highland families but was cleared of all charges, he was removed from his position so as not to further inflame the Highlanders nature, and replaced with a Mr Loch.

      Many Highland families took up offers to head to the new world such as Canada, Australia and the USA, land owners representatives paid their fares, crammed into sloops many died making the journey, others died when they got there, as they didn’t know how to eck out a living in these new strange lands.

      There’s a good book on the subject called Stories of the Highland Clearances by Alexander MacKenzie, that shows the human side of the clearances and just how painful and brutal they really were.

    335. Alf Baird says:

      twathater @ 5:23 pm

      “I have been openly vociferous about Joanna Cherry’s failure to use her apparent extensive legal knowledge”

      And you are not wrong. Unfortunately, she seems not to be an expert on constitutional law. If she were, she micht ken a wee bit aboot how treaties are ended, and also about a peoples ‘inalienable right to self-determination’ and decolonisation, as opposed to being wedded to polite political ideals of what democracy may or may not be, and dependent on altering the national culture of ‘No’ voters with economic assurances.

      We all thought we were electing Nationalists but the SNP MPs are clearly not Nationalists, or not nearly Nationalist enough. Scotland needs ‘bona fide’ Nationalists to stand for election, a majority of Scotland’s MPs who are prepared to tear up the Treaty of Union, chuck it on the floor of Westminster, an bring oor ain sovereignty hame. That should have been the commitment of all Nationalist candidates selected to stand for election, but was not.

      Until our national representatives really understand what colonial wretchedness is, Scotland will remain in constitutional limbo-land, eventually perishing.

    336. Dan says:

      @ Tenruh

      She, along with all other SNP MPs were also elected for the SNP in the 2019 GE running with a manifesto that stated:

      Let’s put Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands, and escape from Brexit.

      Alert individuals may have noticed neither of these headline terms have been met…
      Such a breach of trust and contract by her Party, especially in her Edinburgh Constituency that voted strongly to remain in the EU, may in some minds (and remember she represents everyone in her constituency, not just SNP voters) justify her making a move.

      Archived version for posterity seeing as the NuSNP do like a bit of deleting of history…

    337. Pixywine says:

      The SNP are Globalists. Nationalism is anathema to them. The SNP have sold their arses to the likes of Tony Blair.

    338. Tinto Chiel says:

      @RoS 7.31:

      “What’s more the church ministers took the sides of the land owners representatives they were effectively henchmen, the Highlanders were deeply religious and looked to their clergy men for guidance and advice on what to do.”

      For an excellent fictional account of the Church’s perfidy to its flock and its craven submission to the landowners, “And The Cock Crew” by Fionn MacColla is required reading, even today.

      Or should that be, especially today, given the even more parlous state of the Highlands, undermined this time by great secular, economic and cultural forces?

    339. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If you haven’t already seen it, here’s Alex Salmond’s latest Alba update.

      “…what we can do now is to mobilize a popular pressure, of legal initiatives, of international initiatives, on the right of Scotland to self-determination.”

    340. Dan says:

      Retro Scottish film nicht suggestion to follow on from a couple of days back’s Restless Natives Nativists.

      Local Hero

      NB. To confirm, when entering film choice ensure you select “Local Hero“, and do not make the regrettable mistake of accidentally choosing the soon to be released Scottish film biography about a long serving, comfy baffie wearing MP, running the film title “Vocal Zero“.

    341. Chas says:

      Oh dear. More long boring posts about what happened hundreds of years ago.
      Grievances, real or imaginary, will get us absolutely nowhere and simply perpetuates the loop and stranglehold that Sturgeon has the country in.

    342. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dan (8.41) –

      Blackford’s appearance onstage tomorrow could end up being a very short horror story.

      I can’t believe he’s agreed to do it. He can’t possibly be expecting a warm welcome.

    343. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi IanB.

      Why the secrecy about the venue for the friends of WOS get-together on the 16th?

      In the past, they were always well publicised prior to the event.

    344. sarah says:

      @ David Ritchie, Republic of Scotland and others: Ullapool Museum have a facebook where their findings of the Clearances of 1819 and 1820 are reported, including video reports of this week’s dig.

      We have had two talks and a walk this week on the subject at Clachan Lochbroom, the old parish church, across the River Broom from Inverlael, because the minister Thomas Ross allowed some of the cleared families to stay on the glebe. It is thought that they did bring their roof timbers but the dig at the clearance sites will show if the houses were burned instead.

    345. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT (8.56) –

      In case any mischief-maker tries to ‘cancel’ it.

      Remember what happened at The Counting House in April 2014?

      The serious intelligence services, 77th etc will already know what’s planned, but it’s the casual troublemakers we should be wary of.

    346. Scott says:

      Dan says:
      8 October, 2021 at 8:41 pm

      Retro Scottish film nicht suggestion to follow on from a couple of days back’s Restless Natives Nativists.

      Local Hero

      Two sooperb filums.

      Comfort and Joy is another ‘cult classic’, iimss.

    347. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi IanB.

      But there have been umpteen successful get-togethers since April 2014. Dundee and Glasgow in May 2014, Edinburgh (2), Helensburgh, Aberdeen, I organised three in Invergowrie, why the paranoia over this one?

      Do you “know” something?

    348. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT (9.21) –

      No, I don’t have any ‘inside’ information.

      But I do believe we’re as well being wary. Some of the same people who attended the previous gatherings you mention are no longer ‘friends’ of this place, and have made that very plain.

    349. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi IanB.

      I see your point.

    350. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Whichever way it pans out, a couple of us will probably have to be ‘on the door’ anyway, same as before.

      There’s a few characters – who used to post here! – I wouldn’t let in. I’m sure you know who I’m thinking of, and you could probably add others!


    351. James Che. says:

      Their are plenty of personalities that suggest forgetting Scotland’s horrific past,
      Without working out for themselves or future scots.

      There is a reason clocks work, why timelines work,
      That what you did yesterday, creates the present and the future,

      It’s all very well to miss out time if it doesn’t suit, or you do not want to know the warning you got from the tax man last month that you ignored is why your in court today,

      Time matters and yesterdays history is part of the timeline that has us the Scottish people in the position where we are today
      If history is of no consequence, not important, is of no relevance, good NS and the devolved government can be ignored, it didn’t happen, no need to go on about it aye.

      Quite a lot of Scots would like to ignore the past decision on the hate crime bill for Scots, or Ruthie appalling rape clause, or splitting mother and father into a multi faceted gender whereby men with penises get to go in kiddies toilets and spaces.

      Of corse those that don’t like history might want to ignore this too.
      What has happened in history counts as it effects people’s lives today.

    352. sarah says:

      VERY O/T fao GROUSE BEATER: That photo on your twitter is NOT An Teallach. An Teallach is south of Lochbroom and that photo is up in Assynt. Possibly Suilven?

    353. Papko says:

      Was just thinking:
      Wouldnt it be great if all the Board Legends came back for one last post, in this the last thread.
      Robert Peffers
      The Rock
      Dr Jim

      who else? where did they go?

    354. James Che. says:


      It is sad that some can no longer be with us,
      While others are here but do not comment,

      I was here and voted yes, at that time but I was not so worldly wise to all of Scotland’s hidden details,

      Stu’s wee blue book, Robert pheffers, breeks and a good few others helped considerably in my education along the years,

      Another excellent educator is, Scotland’s History Tours, Bruce Fummy, on YouTube.

      Not sure I spelt his last name correctly, but the rest should find you the site,

    355. Hatuey says:

      The humiliating failure of Sturgeon’s Indy strategy is now obvious to everyone and if the humble crofter isn’t jeered tomorrow I’ll be amazed. The SNP leadership is a pathetic spent force that depends on unionists at BBC Scotland for its survival.

      In Scotland we won’t blame Boris for the shortages, the rising cost of living, the unemployment, and the general economic collapse that is now inevitable. We know who to blame — those who promised us a referendum and a way out, took our donations, and done exactly nothing to deliver.

      We have a truly frightening winter ahead of us, people. All the signs suggest the economy is heading for a major meltdown, the likes of which nobody alive has ever seen. The NHS has already collapsed, even if nobody wants to admit it.

      Are the Scottish people going to suffer quietly like good slaves? I don’t think so.

    356. Breastplate says:

      Some of the people you mention have went totally WGD and there is no known cure for that.
      The affliction consists of mulling around insisting something important is going to happen imminently and cussing people who think otherwise.

    357. Breastplate says:

      They have also developed an allergic reaction to Alex Salmond.

    358. Breastplate says:

      I tried to send an email but it didn’t work, have you got an alternative?

    359. James Che. says:


      Sorry spell checker changed you’re name to parkour,

      My apolgies

    360. Breastplate says:


      “Are the Scottish people going to suffer quietly like good slaves? I don’t think so”

      I would have to disagree and say that they undoubtedly will.

    361. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Breastplate (11.04) –

      Just checked the inbox, nothing from you there.

      In case I mistyped, it’s

      ianbhood [at] gmail [dot] com

      Or you could get me on Twitter @ianbhood


    362. Dan says:

      Ian Brotherhood says: at 8:44 pm

      Blackford’s appearance onstage tomorrow could end up being a very short horror story.

      I can’t believe he’s agreed to do it. He can’t possibly be expecting a warm welcome.

      Ach, he could always create his own warm welcome by torching his wife’s gas guzzling RangeRover in an impulsive act of environmental activism.
      Such an act would (if you overlook the noxious acrid pollution produced by burning a near three tonne “car” filled with allsorts of superfluous plastic shite and unnecessary electronic gadgetry for the aspiring lazy and gormless twats) be an inspirational statement of intent in helping Scotland go NetZero by removing one fuel burning car from our roads.
      He is a man of words and action after all, you’ll recall he was a leading figure in helping Scotland remain in the EU…

    363. Dan says:

      In addition: Alert citizens will have noticed that the increase in obesity levels and the bingo wing contagion directly coincided with the addition of extra “luxury” gadgetry fitted to our vehicles.
      Who would have thought doing away with keep fit window winders, coupled with losing the the aerobic gym like activity of tummy crunches and arm extensions as you repetitively reached over to try to keep the medium wave radio station in tune, would have such a catastrophic impact on the physical characteristics of our nation, and turning so many of us into Barbapapa like entities.

    364. Hatuey says:

      We will soon find out, breastplate. I sense that a lot of people are struggling and very pissed off as it is.

      Could Sturgeon and the British Government have handled the pandemic more badly if they tried?

      Could Sturgeon and the British Government have done less to shield Scotland from the negative impact of Brexit if they tried?

      These are the sort of questions that we will all be contemplating this winter as we watch the economy go down the swanny along with the NHS.

    365. Scott says:

      Dan says:
      8 October, 2021 at 11:51 pm

      and turning so many of us into Barbapapa like entities.

      When I was 4, I wanted to be a Barbapapa; shapeshifting looked cool.

    366. Breeks says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      8 October, 2021 at 7:31 pm
      “Ullapool museum is conducting a 2 year dig at two sites the museum describes the clearances as brutal.”
      …, such as the notorious Mr Sellar, began burning the Highlanders homes the minute they arrived on the scene to evict them.

      I wouldn’t call myself an expert, but the traditional Blackhouse was built entirely from materials available locally, stone, earth, peat, turf and thatch, but the wood for roof trusses, sometimes whale bone, was a rarer commodity.

      It seems to me the most sinister aspect of burning houses and destroying these components in particular would put the houses beyond repair, because there’d be no structural members for a roof.

      Everything could be replaced except perhaps these larger lengths of wood, which was in short supply, and often little more than driftwood recovered from the beach.

      All the rebellious stoicism in the world couldn’t conjure up replacement materials. Not only were homes destroyed, but they were put beyond repair.

      The movie Black 47 has a depiction of an Irish house having it’s roof put it, and the family subsequently freezes to death, or at any rate dies from exposure. It’s a bleak movie, but very poignant.

    367. Effigy says:

      I’m in Hungary and pleased to find out that the mighty Austro Hungarian Empire
      was never a joint venture as Austria being the stronger nation forced the Hungarians
      into much they would never have condoned or vetoed.
      They alway wanted independence and control of their own country.
      Unfortunately they had to endure the brutality of Russian control for 45 years but independent
      and proud are the Hungarians of today.

      Our day will come!

    368. Pixywine says:

      Dumb Jocks

    369. Andy Ellis says:

      @Effigy 5.10 am

      Austria may have been the stronger partner and dictated terms, but the Hungarians were never averse to forcing their will on minorities within their own territory were they? Pre 1918 Hungary comprised only around 55% ethnic Hungarians. I doubt the Slovaks, Romanians, Serbs, Croats, Slovenes and Italians ruled by Hungary probably thought they were being forced too.

      If anything modern Hungary stands in stark contrast to the kind of values most Scottish nationalists would like to see in the early days of a better nation. Perhaps “Hungexit” will follow Polish “Polexit”, since it seems the deeply unpleasant and regressive Polish regime is on a legal and constitutional collision course with the EU?

    370. Dorothy Devine says:

      Breeks , thank for that I have been trying to remember the title for the last few months – something to do with old age .

      Black 47 is indeed black and all those with an interest in the glorious British and their helpers should view it.

    371. Ottomanboi says:

      Austria-Hungary aka Österreichisch-Ungarische Monarchie/ Osztrák–Magyar Monarchia was quite a different entity from the UKGB. Hungary, at a nominal 43% of the population, retained its parliament and monarchic symbols within a proto EU type arrangement of checks and balances between the various ethnicities including Czechs, Slovaks, Bosnians, Italians etc.
      Wiki covers the subject in detail.
      Hungary was not comparable to Scotland in any way.

    372. Ottomanboi says:

      I am intrigued, what are those values «most Scottish nationalists would like to see in the early days of a better nation».
      Sounds like a recipe for a deal of flouncing, virtue signaling. Very much what we already have.
      The Poles and Hungarians are doing «their own thing», what independence is actually about.
      Like it or lump it…..

    373. Breeks says:

      Not really much to add… except much of this could have been written a couple of years ago, if not longer, and in certain places, it was…

    374. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Breeks (9.12) –

      Thanks for that link. Powerful stuff.

      Blackford in the frame again. He’s in for a hard time this afternoon. Won’t be a big surprise if he has a positive lateral flow test and takes to his bed.

      ‘One of the main attractions of an independent Scotland is a withdrawal from the sewer that runs beneath the Westminster Tories. Another attraction is this: that it provides an opportunity to ensure that the present high command of the SNP never again get to spit poison at women who seek to uphold the truth.’

    375. Breeks says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      9 October, 2021 at 8:55 am

      Black 47 is indeed black and all those with an interest in the glorious British and their helpers should view it…

      Aye.. The lead character is an Irish Ranger, but the poignancy is that I’m sure I’ve read somewhere that there were Highland Regiment veterans from the Battle of Waterloo who returned home to find their families forcefully evicted and gone… I need to track down a source for that. It was a while ago I read it.

    376. Andy Ellis says:


      I quite understand that they are “doing their own thing”, that they have broad support in their own countries for doing so and that they are fully entitled to do so. I’m lumping the descent of the Polish and Hungarian regimes in to xenophobia and populism, just as I’ve had to lump it over the decision of English brexiteers to leave the EU, or Scottish unionists to stay in the UK, but I don’t have to like any of them.

      Perhaps to you the values of civic nationalism are just virtue signalling and flouncing to you and others, but if the alternative to the kind of Scotland that was being advanced in the 2012-14 indyref1 campaign is the kind of society being promoted by Law and Justice in Poland or by Fidesz or Jobbik in Hungary, I think I know which pattern I’d prefer.

      I suspect the Polish government may find that their attempts to declare fundamental provisions of the EU Treaties unconstitutional in an attempt to bolster their hollowing out of the independent Polish judicial system won’t end well for them or the Polish people. Of course, as you rightly point out, as an independent nation the Poles are free to do what they want, just as the UK was free to blow both its feet off with a no-deal brexit.

    377. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 10.51 pm

      “Are the Scottish people going to suffer quietly like good slaves? I don’t think so.”

      I’m genuinely intrigued: what is it you think the (presumably?) invigorated and enraged Scottish people are going to do after the coming winter of discontent?

      The dire prediction brought to mind the End of the World sketch from The Secret Policeman’s Ball.

      Seems to me that’s wishful thinking on the same level as the “Nicola has a cunning plan” line frequently espoused by the WGD Loyal?

    378. Dan says:

      @ Andy Ellis

      Took a look back over some past polling figures re. Views on immigration.
      As an aside, maybe it’s just me but do wonder about the phrasing of the question, especially so after years of the MSM and BBC broadcasting negatively on the immigration subject by giving the likes of Farage so much coverage and a regular platform.
      Would a more neutral way of asking be: “What are your thoughts on immigration?” – With the response options being Too much / Not enough / Don’t know, thus stimulating the individual to consider those options rather than responding in a confirmatory manner to the way the actual question was phrased.

      Yes voters: agreed by 7 points. No voters: agreed by 48 points.

      Yes voters: disagreed by 12 points. No voters: agreed by 27 points.




      Agree: 69%
      Disagree: 24%
      Net agreement: 45


      Agree: 71%
      Disagree: 23%
      Net agreement: 48

      Scotland/rUK gap: 3 points

    379. Andy Ellis says:

      @Dan 10.06 pm

      Doubtless the question, and the way it is couched, can have an influence. As others pointed out earlier in the week there are indications that the original question to be used in 2014, changed after intervention from the Electoral Commission, may have resulted in a different outcome.

      Perhaps if the question asked pointed out that with an ageing population the only way to ensure provision of services and a tax payer base to fund them post indy is by encouraging immigration, more of the (what shall we call them?) nativists might abandon their hostility to immigration? It’s relatively easy to skew the result if there’s no context: people can see issues with an influx of immigrants, access to services, pressure on local housing or education, and concentrate on the negatives or their subjective experience, but they’re never presented with (or are purposefully deaf to?) the positives of immigration.

      On a subjective level, I saw and heard a lot of it living in the SE of England in the run up to brexit with people becoming more and more comfortable with expressing regressive and often bigoted views about immigration – largely from Easter Europe and the Balkans in my area – whilst happily employing Polish tradesmen, Albanian car wash workers, and Lithuanian field hands. We’re seeing the results of pandering to UKIP style xenophobia and bigotry about immigrants now in the UK aren’t we?

      I realise it’s not a popular view amongst some in here (and evidently from the polling you reference amongst many of the population in general) but if you read some of the stuff that’s been posted in here recently about restricting the vote to “nationals”, promoting the Scots language, how to remedy our “colonial” status and ancestral cringe etc etc., it chimes a lot more with the ideological foundations of Faragism and similar political movements now baring their teeth on the continent than with the kind of inclusive progressive nationalism we were all supposed to be pushing for in 2014, and insisting was nothing like the “bad” nationalism which was used as a stick yo beat us with by Scottish and British unionists.

    380. Republicofscotland says:

      Breeks @3.48am.

      Sounds like an interesting film I’ll look out for it, one of the more well known evictions took place in Ross-shire, the eviction agent was a Mr Taylor, who was well versed in the brutal game of evicting the tenants.

      In one eviction in Knoydart Taylor and a group half drunken constables beat the now known as Greenyard women half to death with truncheons, after the women encountered them on the road to hand out the summons to evict the tenants the women refused to take the notices of evictions, they were beaten with such ferocity that parts of their scalps came away in the constables hands, one woman was heavily pregnant at the time.

      A few folk who were evicted were given small parcels of obscure unfit for farming land at raised rental prices, they then subdivided this land over and over giving ever smaller subdivisons to other homeless Highlanders, how they would pay the rent on this unfit for farming land is another matter with no income whatsoever.

      I mention this because a similar thing happened in Ireland in the 19th century, which eventually led many the poor eating grass, and later being found dead.

    381. John Main says:


      So the MSM and the BBC have been broadcasting negatively on immigration?

      Man, Dan, what you been smoking?

      Tell you what, though, instead of whining about imaginary media bias, here’s a good forum for you to list the advantages of immigration, just for my own enlightenment. Given that the raisin d’etre of this site is Scottish Indy, make sure to highlight in particular those benefits of immigration that advance that cause.

      Take your time, I’ll wait.

    382. Hatuey says:

      You are cautious person, Andy, and all your expectations are based on an assumption that future patterns of activity will closely correspond to those we have seen in the past. There’s no room for progress and development in an outlook like that, even if it works most of the time.

      Scotland has never been in a position like this though. The Tories crossed clear political lines when they told us, in effect, that they don’t give a fuck how we vote, we aren’t getting a referendum. For that and other reasons, the political situation in Scotland has never looked so bleak and so tense.

      All of that political pressure is being stoked and will be stoked further by wider factors like Brexit and, most importantly, the terrifying economic situation we are heading into. It isn’t just me, some Internet bampot, saying it — economics experts everywhere are expecting the UK economy to collapse dramatically in the next few months.

      Add it all up and you have the sort of conditions that that exist before stars are born. Everybody assumes the Scottish people will shuffle along quietly and miserably on the long march to independence, following granules on a road prepared for them by Westminster and the SNP.

      My understanding of where we are is based on two critical things; 1) support for independence is massively underreported and has the potential to increase dramatically, and 2) humble and meek as we may seem, there are limits to the shit Scottish people will put up with.

      What do I think the Scottish are going to do when unemployment starts shooting up, the cost of living goes through the roof, inflation and interest rates soar, they start losing their houses, and they realise there’s a simple way out of this mess? I think they’re going to demand independence.

    383. Alf Baird says:

      Andy Ellis @ 10:44

      “restricting the vote to “nationals”

      That is precisely what every other country does in order to protect its sovereignty.

      “promoting the Scots language”

      Most countries actually respect and teach their indigenous languages, which together with our culture is what gives us our national identity/national consciousness. This is prevented in Scotland by colonialism and Cultural & Linguistic Imperialism.

      “how to remedy our “colonial” status”

      That is the aim and purpose of independence.

    384. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Andy Ellis 10:06pm
      As Disraeli said, “Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics”. I will bring a personal insight about the Scots views on immigration. During the 2014 campaign I was caught out, by the number of times I was questioned on immigration. But it was the way, I was asked. Always when nobody else was around. Like a secret question. Until Alex Salmonds intervention on tv to say in an Independent Scotland, we would use the Australian points systems for immigration. I swotted up on this system and felt more comfortable when questioned. This system is now used by the UK Government. The irony for me is that the Scots emigrated to the corners of the world. I have relatives in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. And it wasn’t due to the Highland Clearances. A few of them emigrated post 1945. We can try to hide it but immigration attitudes should be researched and understood in Scotland as well. Anyhoo missing Chris cartoon this morning and Stu’s wit. The end of an era.

    385. Dan says:

      Andy Ellis says: at 10:44 am

      Perhaps if the question asked pointed out that with an ageing population the only way to ensure provision of services and a tax payer base to fund them post indy is by encouraging immigration, more of the (what shall we call them?) nativists might abandon their hostility to immigration? It’s relatively easy to skew the result if there’s no context: people can see issues with an influx of immigrants, access to services, pressure on local housing or education, and concentrate on the negatives or their subjective experience, but they’re never presented with (or are purposefully deaf to?) the positives of immigration.

      I suspected something along those lines would be your response with the inevitable dig thrown in.
      However, I’d like to add that with our ageing population and the requirement to ensure provision of our services and a taxpayer base to fund them; The important point is that we would actually need an immigration policy that has the ability to control the amount and importantly the type of immigrants coming to stay here.
      Having an open door policy to all cedes the necessary mechanisms required to influence the demographics in a direction that is ultimately positive to sustaining our society.
      As the polls highlight a degree of alignment in the cross-society views folks hold, it would seems a no brainer to develop and promote a sensible immigration policy like many other countries have.
      It is not blood and soil to hold a view that sensible control of immigration policy is required.

    386. vlad (not that one) says:

      @ Sarah 22:22
      Re picture on Grousebeater’s twitter: Stac Pollaidh on the left, Suilven in the centre. Photo probably taken from An Teallach.

    387. Gregor says:

      An interesting Covid 19 development:

      “Delta does not appear to make children sicker; Secondary immune response stronger after infection than after shot”:

    388. Andy Ellis says:

      @Dan 11.27 am

      I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone sane advocate a totally open doors immigration policy, but whatever the policy of a post independence Scotland is (and I for one hope it bears little relation to that of the current UK government which appears entirely relaxed at the prospect of leaving folk to drown in the English channel) that is a rather different issue to the treatment of who you include in the “demos” for the purposes of a vote in a referendum on self determination.

    389. James Che. says:

      Re- immigration.

      As far as I understand from MSM and locals to where immigration is happening in England in boat loads.

      It follows this pattern.

      Our Coast guards and RNLI patrols often go to meet the young mainly Male immigrants, while a good perportion arrive without help onto England’s shores.

      Often with out masks and often without two vaccines.
      Then they are supplied with food and shelter,
      Then any free nhs medical care and help they may need,
      Then they are given an allowance, I belief it is around £200.
      They are not all subject to a points system as some just disperse into England unchecked.
      Proportionally it averages 90 % young men to 10% women.

      My son , his wife and my grandchildren are economic migrants to NZ from Scotland.
      He has contributed a lot to NZ in return,
      He has won best worker of year three years consistently, he has worked his way up from shop floor to being a boss of that shop floor.
      His wife had qualified as teacher in Britain before they moved, however NZ would not recognise the qualification standard, so she re-trained in NZ.
      And has been a NZ teacher for a while now.

      They left Scotland as his wife could only obtain work on low pay, in shops or pubs after qualifying as a teacher in Scotland.
      My son could only get low paid work working on building sites and eventually low paid work in a shop in Scotland.

      I often wonder what would happen if the government in Scotland met my family on the shores and welcomed them back home to Scotland as migrants , with the following criteria in place,
      no testing for covid, gave them free housing accommodation , free food, free nhs care, no council tax payments, no bbc license to pay, plus he and his wife could contribute to Scotland through high qualified work certification.

      This would have a drastic effect in re populating Scotland with their own young Scots. And many thousands of Scots may return home with their families.
      Whom would need immigration from other foreign countries should the same help be available to Scottish born Scots.
      Population explosion?

    390. Dan says:

      @ Andy Ellis

      Immigration policy and discussion on eligibility criteria such as duration of residency period prior to being enfranchised to vote in specific democratic processes are indeed separate issues.

      So probably best not to attempt to conflate folk discussing electoral franchise criteria with being anti-immigration…

      Perhaps if the question asked pointed out that with an ageing population the only way to ensure provision of services and a tax payer base to fund them post indy is by encouraging immigration, more of the (what shall we call them?) nativists might abandon their hostility to immigration?

    391. Republicofscotland says:

      Effigy @5.10am.


      Once I traded comment online with a Hungarian person, and got an overwhelming feeling of resentment and anger mixed with national pride at the amount of land Hungary forfeited after WWI and the Treaty of Trianon.

      Are Hungarian feelings still running high on this matter?

    392. James Che. says:

      My son and his family are one of the many indigenous Scots that have left Scotland’s shores as a economic migrant,
      Their four sons could have been born in their home land.
      But we import other people’s sons from other countries instead.

      This is why there is a decline of age group population in Scotland.

    393. Grouse Beater says:

      Your essential weekend reading:

      ‘The Killing of Sister Joanna’ –

    394. James Che. says:

      I believe the taliban seed growing originated in Westminster through their policies, they must be importing the thought to scotland,

    395. Robert Hughes says:

      Whatever we here think about immigration into Scotland – whether pro or anti – a significant % of Scottish residents ( not necessarily only Scots per se , though including a sizeable % of that cohort ) are totally opposed to Independence purely because they perceive – accurately or not – it would mean a large influx of foreigners. A perception given credence by the SNP over a number of years .

      I know , have met or heard from many with this attitude .

      We may be appalled , embarrassed , whatever , by such attitudes , that doesn’t change the facts . The idea of unrestricted immigration post-Independence is a net vote – YES- loser .

      Personally , having lived , worked , socialised with people from all over the world I can honestly say I have no particular angst about or antipathy to Scotland being – genuinely – multi-cultural – AFTER – Independence . Different cultures CAN enrich our own: with one giant caveat …… if we’re all still toiling under the depredations of the Capitalist/Neo Liberal political system/worldview – and all the indications are things are imminently about to deteriorate drastically ( as Hatuey predicts )- the prospects of harmonious co-existence between Scots and non-Scots residents become even less likely .

      Again , we may not like or agree with it but it’s nonetheless true , when any given people are suffering hardships in their own country the tendency is to start resenting any immigrant population

    396. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 11.08 am

      I’m a realist and a pragmatist. I’m not sure either of us really know enough about each other to make judgements based on the limited experience of BTL comments and interactions here. I don’t think I am saying that future behaviour will always align with what happened in the past, still less that such continuity is desirable. I’m open to occurrence of unexpected events.

      Tories are as Tories do. They are quite happy to hide behind the mantra of: “we’re not saying you can NEVER have another referendum, we’re just saying you can’t have a LEGAL one whenever you want it”. That allows them to chose the timing for a referendum that suits them, placate the little Englanders at home (“Look: we told the uppity Jocks that they can’t dictate terms to us, just like we told the uppity Europeans and the EU to sling their hooks”), whilst presenting it to the outside world as allowing the Scots to vote, just not unilaterally and without conditions.

      It is possible that we are approaching some kind of crisis as you think. Assuming that happens, I’m not as sanguine as you appear to be that it will necessarily result in an outcome which is positive for the pro independence movement. It may well do the opposite. I’m not convinced that the outlook now – or even in 6 or 12 months time – will fit your “the political situation in Scotland has never looked so bleak and so tense” prognosis

      I don’t buy the concept that pro independence support is massively underreported, sorry. Nobody thinks polling is infallible of course, but if it were true, we’d know about it: to believe otherwise requires a leap of faith which just isn’t justified by any actual evidence I’ve seen. You may be right that the patience of the Scots people will snap, but I continue to have my doubts. Time will tell. I’ll happily eat crow if there is some kind of mass movement which sweeps us to the sunny uplands of independence on a righteous wave of indignation.

      A full blown crisis of the type you outline may bring about the results you outline: perhaps it will take something as bad as that, but I’m not convinced.

    397. James Che. says:

      Black fhart speaking is not saying anything new, empty rhetoric. Long mandates to go on forever and ever for snp.
      Withdraw you’re MPs and end the union on the basis of treaty that has been broken,

    398. Andy Ellis says:

      @Dan 12.41 pm

      “So probably best not to attempt to conflate folk discussing electoral franchise criteria with being anti-immigration…”

      Or to pretend that nobody discussing it is?

      Happy to help.

    399. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis 10:44

      Immigration is not “the only way” to ensure ongoing provision of services and a tax base.

      By making that false statement near the start of your post, you build the rest on foundations of sand.

      How about “progressive” tax system reforms? How about looking at other countries such as Japan, which encourages seniors to continue to contribute labour and services for as long as they are willing and capable? Happier and healthier seniors and reduced social services demands.

      No role for automation in Scotland? I guess all the pundits predicting major job losses soon, due to AI and automation, need to speak with you to get their ideas sorted.

      Seems to me Andy, that you want to live in a utopian multi-culti future, and are now scrabbling about, looking for a vehicle you can hijack and drive to that destination. Seems obvious to me that Scottish Indy is not that vehicle, because certainly right now, the two are mutually incompatible.

    400. Tannadice Boy says:

      @John Main 1:49pm
      Good points you have made. I would add that both Canada and Australia operate a differentiated regional points based system, to get the resource to where it is needed. The only thing stopping that from happening in Scotland is a dysfunctional relationship between the SG and the UK Governments. Empty hoose springs to mind.

    401. Ottomanboi says:

      Japan, the not quite so rosy story.
      Japan bought into the American globalist model having abandoned the older principle of economic self reliance. The Chinese did not.

    402. John Main says:


      From the article you link:

      “Campaigners admit the scale of poverty in Japan is dwarfed by that in many nations — even among other developed countries.”

      I don’t think the current post-Covid situation in Japan disproves my assertion. Immigration is not THE ONLY way to address issues such as an ageing population. Japan has some good ideas in that regard.

      Other countries encourage child birth by acknowledging that one of the major, if not the major, deterrent to having kids is the cost. Policies can be derived that help to mitigate that.

    403. robbo says:

      Here we go again

      Scotland game not on the fecking telly(unless you pay for it), but the England game gets shown on STV.

      Why the fck do we put up with this shite man!

    404. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 1.49 pm

      OK, agreed. My assumption was that, all other things being equal, we weren’t going to move overnight to the nirvana you describe. I’m all in favour of many of the things you describe. Encouraging seniors to work longer and automation are a great idea, but if you think they’ll somehow mean we can live in splendid isolation with no immigration, I have some magic beans to sell you.

      I’m not the only one in the movement – or even I suspect within Alba – who finds the prospect of the kind of Scotland being promoted by some (and yes, of course I accept that it’s not everyone, and they’re not all nativist bigots) unattractive. Describing what seems to me a fairly mainstream position as: “you want to live in a utopian multi-culti future” makes you sound like the kind of knuckle dragging Faragists who got the UK – and sadly by extension all of us thanks to the failure of the SNP – where we are today.

      For what it’s worth I’m pretty sure that it isn’t me, or those who broadly share my views who probably still represent the majority in the pro indy movement, who have tried to hi-jack the drive to our shared destination. Perhaps they’re just different destinations?

      Some of those in here and more broadly in the movement who support the nativist narrative and “Scotland is a colony” advocates have convinced themselves not only that their vision is right, but they are the majority. Maybe they’re right. Time will tell, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it if I were them.

    405. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Robbo 3:10pm
      The only solution is to make Scottish Uefa and FIFA qualifiers a Category A broadcast event. Sky will usually outbid terrestrial TV broadcasters for the other Categories (Except in the case of the England games where ITV outbid Sky).If only we had a Scottish Government interested in fitba and capable of negotiating an amendment. Apparently not. Anyhoo good luck to the team. Kick off 5pm, Sky’s perogative.

    406. Dan says:

      Out of interest, for those mentioning automation, in what areas do you think this is beneficial to individuals and our society? Humans by design do actually have to move about for our musculoskeletal systems to remain in their optimum state, or we will just waste away or endure the negative health aspects that a sedentary lifestyle induces.

      EG. The rows of expensive automated bank machines that now fill our banks that are rarely used, whilst the queue for the one remaining human teller is a dozen long.
      That move did away with the bank jobs for individual humans that allowed them to earn a wage. By choosing to move to automation, pretty obviously against the wishes of the bank customers, the money that would have gone to individual workers now flows straight to big companies that supply the machines.
      Aye, you could say “But the folk now have jobs building and maintaining the automated machines”, but the energy involved in harvesting the minerals and producing the myriad componentry to build them then recycle them as they are inevitably upgraded isn’t that eco sensible. Plus much of the building of the machines will be automated too…

      Likewise the impending move to automated vote counting for next year’s elections will again remove work which earned wages, and individual participation and engagement in our democratic process, and that money will now flow to private company coffers to pay for the machines, when there was absolutely nothing wrong with the previous system that utlised humans to do the job.

    407. Andy Ellis says:

      @Alf Baird 11.16 pm

      1) “That is precisely what every other country does in order to protect its sovereignty.”

      Not for independence referendums it isn’t. It simply suits you to talk about what already independent countries do to divert from the fact you’re not comparing like with like.

      You’re entitled to your own (wrong) opinions Alf, but not to your own class of facts.

      2) “Most countries actually respect and teach their indigenous languages, which together with our culture is what gives us our national identity/national consciousness. This is prevented in Scotland by colonialism and Cultural & Linguistic Imperialism.”

      How long is it going to take for this cultural renewal do you think Alf? I’m all for promoting exposure to and teaching of Scots and of Gaelic. I’d strongly advocate a big increase in resources devoted to both, but experience in Ireland promoting the Irish language would suggest it’s not something you can expect to show results very quickly.

      The number speaking Irish as a first language is only around 170,000 and only around 10% of Irish people use Irish daily or weekly, and even fewer (around 4%) are regular, active speakers. That’s despite decades of government support for Irish language from the state.

    408. robbo says:

      Tannadice Boy says:
      9 October, 2021 at 3:31 pm
      @Robbo 3:10pm

      We’re the only country in the whole fecking world that would allow this to happen.

      I don’t care who outbids who but in my country I want to see MY country play at sports they’re competing in ,whether it be fitba or tiddly winks!


    409. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis 3:11

      Hold the magic beans for now Andy, I don’t want to live in “splendid isolation with no immigration”.

      I do want to live in a society where the Scottish dog wags the immigrant tail, not the other way about.

      And yes Andy, your position may well be “fairly mainstream”, but I would be most surprised if it would not be, after decades of spinning and nudging to bring that about. Don’t tell me that pressure came from ordinary Scots. It was imposed from above.

      Just how insecure our elites feel about how well your “fairly mainstream” beliefs have grafted may be gauged by the relentless and never-ending propaganda that is broadcast to us, as they seek to brainwash us into believing that we are too underpopulated, or populated with the wrong kinds of people.

      But TBH, whilst I have my views on this subject, and you have your views, and we can perhaps agree to differ, the bottom line is, which view is most relevant within the context of the Scottish Independence debate?

      I believe it to be a no-brainer to say that mine is.

    410. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Robbo 3:47pm
      I agree with you. We need the SG to approach Nadine Dorries to argue an amendment to the Category A leglisation for Scotland qualifying games. I don’t think the political will exists in the SG. Suits the Doon Hauden narrative. Anyhoo I will be watching with a crate of diet cokes. First time in ages I will watch a Scotland game without a beer or two. I would wire you 20 quid if I could, for you to watch the game in the pub. That’s where I would rather be!.

    411. sarah says:

      @ vlad [not that one] at 11.41: I think we’ve cracked it between us!

      Stac Pollaidh, Suilven etc, as you say, but taken from Ben Mor Coigach, not from An Teallach. We wouldn’t see the base of Stac Pollaidh from An Teallach, I don’t think.

    412. James Che. says:

      This is how to interpret if you’re country is colonised by logic.

      Scotland) Can we have a referendum to be independent and have the right to self determination please ?

      Answer from Westminster colonial master NO.

    413. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 4.08 pm

      It doesn’t help if your view is more “relevant” if it remains a minority one.

      I’m not sure “ordinary Scots” hold the views you think they do, or who qualifies as an “ordinary” Scot. I’m even less sure that you speak for them. We can perhaps agree that there have been decades of spinning and nudging, but we are where we are.

      We can obsess about the past, and how hard done by we were as a nation, or that we wuz robbed etc. but the fact is that we need to construct a majority. I’ve still heard or seen nothing that convinces me that some of the suggestions being put forward BTL here bring us closer to independence: quite the opposite in fact. Of course, I’m only one person and we can agree to disagree. The point is you have to convince a majority of Scots – including “ordinary” Scots – that your approach is right, and mine is wrong.

    414. Ottomanboi says:

      Will we ever hear the end of this «Auld Sang»?
      Somehow doubt we’ll ever run out of verses in this universe of the shit scared of something nasty «out there».
      Is this an age thing?

    415. James Che. says:

      Westminster). You can have one when we decide,
      Scotland) can we have one when we decide.

      Westminster, NO.
      Scotland) But we have not asked for many, in Fact only 1 in three hundred years,
      Westminster) we are the master colonial race and country, and we say NO.

      That’s appears to be logic in deciding if you and you’re country are colonised.

    416. Dan says:

      As stated previously. Having a majority of a minority wins you the super stellar prize of fuck all.
      And if you can’t convince some of the majority to come over and build the minority into being the new majority with what you are current selling, then you may need to yield your position and develop a new marketing strategy and product line that folk actually will support.

      It’s not rocket scienz. But for some obscure reason the leaders of the political arm of the supposed Pro-Indy side who should be on the ball and building support, have instead decided to set out their stall with a lot of controversial and divisive shite that folk are put off by and therefore won’t buy.

    417. sarah says:

      @ BDTT at 4.24: many thanks for the link to the Scotland game – getting a much better connection than usual. [Pity about the Israel goals..]

    418. Republic of Scotland thanks when I posted that I was watching a programme about Hitler and the Nazis evicting Jews

    419. Andy Ellis says:

      @ James Che 5.08 pm

      Your logic is flawed. British nationalists may by and large be politically regressive, but they’re not stupid. Their case rests on their interpretation, which however much we dislike it is widely accepted, that they aren’t saying we can never have a referendum (evidence: Edinburgh Agreement & 2014), they’re just saying that it’s a negotiated process. To them a devolved parliament (which remember they don’t accept is sovereign in the sense pro-independence think the people of Scotland are sovereign), can’t act unilaterally.

      Being “a people” and being sovereign is a state of mind in the end. Every people is entitled to self determination, but the right isn’t automatic and it isn’t unlimited. In particular, it isn’t that easy to exercise for non-colonies which nobody in the international community accepts we are, whatever Alf Baird and his acolytes say.

      Even Thatcher accepted that the Scots had the right to self determination. If we don’t accept the British nationalist position that they have no selfish interest in keeping Scots (or Northern Irish) people in the union if the majority vote for independence, then we’re in a totally different ball game. I’m just no buying the line that we’re uniquely incapable of freeing ourselves from a voluntary union, when you see what others in much less promising situations like the Baltic States and former Yugoslavia have achieved.

      We’re not still in the union because we’re being held against our will, it’s because our people lack the political balls to take it by voting overwhelmingly for it rather than asking.

    420. Sir Pete Bottomley the longest serving MP thinks the 82thousand pounds salary is not enough he thinks it should be 100thousand the same as a GP in England .Sorry we need GPS more than Politicians

    421. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sarah.

      crichd have been streaming that channel since this morning, totally glitch-free.

    422. Apparently the FM has told the Financial Times she needs to retain a degree of flexibility over the timing of a second referendum because of the pandemic. Over to you guys haha

    423. James Che. says:

      The past has influence, and many Scots were not taught their own history through the British education system.

      Certainly their is a large piece of Scottish history and culture that has had its slate wiped clean with a bit of deliberation.
      And those that shout forget it, it’s in the past are part of that British and new nuance of people tearing down statues across Britain

      Trying to erase history and invent a new story to suit to the minds that cannot face or cope with reality………..
      Forget history, forget history, tear history down, whom are the very same people whom do not want to know THERE were MILLIONS of under privileged white slaves in the colonies from Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England.

      These were poor white under privileged people set up to loose in courts on trumped up charges so they could be indentured as slaves to recolonise the new worlds.

      Selective history is not history, it is a small section of history, but the real picture was larger and vastly different,
      Remember history in it completeness, in its records before it is reinvented by only one history story teller,
      Every Scot should know their past history as should every country,

      Like many a person in Scotland it would be absolutely thrilling to saying let’s ignore the treaty of the union, it’s past history,
      What happened in the past doesn’t count today.

      If that is where we are,
      GO Scotland. We don’t need to beg the colonial master any longer, history is in the past and to be ignored.

    424. Joanna Cherry has said if the SNP achieve a majority of MPS at the next General Election that should be a mandate for Independence .She said a constitutional precedent exists from when Irish Nationalist politicians withdrew from the UK to form their own Provisional Government after the 1918 election .She said that prompted talks that led to the birth of the Republic of Ireland .

    425. James Che. says:

      Interesting to note a book on Amazon by author Stanley Johnson. Boris Johnson PM father.
      THE VIRUS, July 2015.

      In fact he wrote other books including about world population problems,

    426. James Che. says:

      My own chosen read for today was the famous Lord Cooper, 1953 in the court of sessions, whereby he declared,
      As the Scottish Parliament had never exercised untrammelled Sovereignty, it could not pass it on to the English Parliament.

    427. Breeks says:

      David Ritchie says:
      9 October, 2021 at 6:19 pm
      Joanna Cherry has said if the SNP achieve a majority of MPS at the next General Election that should be a mandate for Independence .She said a constitutional precedent exists from when Irish Nationalist politicians withdrew from the UK to form their own Provisional Government after the 1918 election .She said that prompted talks that led to the birth of the Republic of Ireland .

      Sounds a lot like ALBA’s Plebiscite Election idea… big thumbs up from me.

      Joanna Cherry will also add a lot of weight and credibility to the notion.

      However, on the subject of Irish precedent, there is also the sobering Irish precedent from 1916, when the seven signatories of The Proclamation of the Irish Republic ended up being executed for their part in the Easter Rising, and “daring” to call themselves the Provisional Irish Government…

      We should be well read and doubly prepared for Westminster’s reaction…

      On other news… is there a news blackout on the YES2 Rally in Glasgow? I wasn’t there, obviously, but I haven’t heard a word about it, positive or negative.

    428. thomas says:

      @ Andy Ellis 3.34pm.

      You wrote…

      “The number speaking Irish as a first language is only around 170,000 and only around 10% of Irish people use Irish daily or weekly, and even fewer (around 4%) are regular, active speakers. That’s despite decades of government support for Irish language from the state.”

      Why do you think that is then Andy?

      The reason irish is in such a mess in ireland , and thats despite the republic being independent for a century , is that since independence ,at best , all irish governments have pursued a half hearted , simplistic attitude to language revival , and at worst , its been a deliberate policy behind the scenes to be seen to try and do something about irish while deliberately wanting english to remain the common language for economic reasons.

      They teach irish in schools , as a second language , without providing any use for it , which in turn has led to generations of people growing up hostile to the language as being worthless.

    429. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Well, that was some second half!

      Scotland 3 Israel 2.

      Well done the boys!

    430. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Breeks.

      Today’s march/rally.

    431. Tannadice Boy says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon 6:58pm
      Agreed, great game. Great result. Yessir I can boogie..

    432. sarah says:

      @ BDTT – great coverage thank you, no stopping and starting, and then a win as well!!

      Is this channel always available? My husband has been using cric-free but it is hopeless.

    433. thomas says:

      Brilliant! well done scotland !!!

    434. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT (7.01) –

      Thanks for that link.

      Wanted to see Blackford’s speech.

      And now I have.


    435. Andy Ellis says:

      @thomas 6.50 pm

      I know why it is. The Irish government’s commitment to the Irish language may indeed be half hearted, and resources have certainly played a part particularly in the early years of the Republic, but at least they’ve tried unlike with Gaelic in this country until fairly recently.

      I know quite a few Irish folk from anglophone backgrounds who have learnt Irish, and others who are trying. Using Irish day to day – or Gaelic in this country – is of course a choice. Governments can help by making resources available, supporting teaching and making Irish available and accessible for day to day use in their business, having primary and secondary medium education in their national languages. I’ve started learning Gaelic myself, and it’s not easy. I doubt I’d want to take on learning Scots as well, but if folk want that available as an option I think it should definitely be supported.

      Attitudes to Irish in Ireland have changed somewhat, even over the past few decades: a lot of young people take pride in learning and using it, even if they aren’t and will never be fluent. Trying to reinstate Irish or Gaelic as languages which are used by significant numbers of people in Scotland and Ireland is (sadly) not something that will happen quickly. It isn’t that long ago historically since 20% of the Scots population spoke Gaelic: now it’s around 1%.

      I doubt it would be much easier to “re-instate” Scots as an everyday language either: it’s not as if we have a great record in promoting any languages, and there are only so many hours in a school week. I applaud anyone advocating it and supporting it, but we shouldn’t fool ourselves that it’s something we can achieve quickly. I don’t think we can afford to wait for some airy fairly cultural renaissance of the Scots language, or the withering of the Scots cringe.

      We have the wherewithal to become independent now, or in the next few years – what we lack is the political courage it seems.

    436. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Serves you right, IanB!

      Hi Sarah.

      crichd appeared over the past year. It seems “to work”.

      Click on the football in the top menu for what they have available.

    437. Pixywine says:

      There is no “pandemic”. Scourgeon is Gaslighting again.

    438. Tinto Chiel says:

      Thomas @6.50: “They teach Irish in schools , as a second language, without providing any use for it , which in turn has led to generations of people growing up hostile to the language as being worthless.”

      You summed it up nicely.

      Of course, in Sturgeon’s globalist government, there has never been promotion of either of Scotland’s surviving historical languages. In fact, there seems virtually no awareness of Scottish culture or history at all in its pronouncements since Alex Salmond resigned.

      But keep them unicorns and rainbows a-comin’.

      That’ll do the trick…..

      ‘Twas a sad day I left the croft.

    439. Ian Brotherhood says:

      A wee note to say thanks to those who’ve contacted me via email to say they’re interested in coming to the FOW gathering next week.

      It’s encouraging that these are all new faces who’ve never been to FOW ‘socials’ before.

      If you want to attend – or maybe you can’t, but know others who may be interested – please don’t be shy about contacting me directly. It’s just so that we can get an idea of numbers.

      Blackford’s performance today was dire, almost fearful, and the faces of those in attendance said more than he ever could about the current state of the relationship between the SNP hierarchy and the Yes movement generally.

      ‘Darkest before the dawn’ seems apt, particularly at this time of year. The fight has to continue, and we all know that it’s most effective when it’s based on interaction between real people, in real places. This ‘online’ stuff is all well and good but we have to make the most of the chances we have to meet one another before there’s another lockdown.

      FOW is unique – no other non-party grouping has ever had such successful, well-attended gatherings. It started as a direct result of people using this place as a forum, and it will surely continue, long after Stu pulls down the shutter.

      So, please, consider joining us next Saturday, in central Glasgow, if only for a wee while. We’ll be there from mid-afternoon until late. And it won’t be all sitting-about, grim-faced, talking about this ‘politics’ stuff. We have a laugh and make friends. That’s what it’s all about.

      Finally, and most importantly, if you are coming – don’t forget to bring some nibbles!

      ianbhood [at] gmail [dot] com

    440. Scott says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      9 October, 2021 at 7:35 pm

      I doubt it would be much easier to “re-instate” Scots as an everyday language either: it’s not as if we have a great record in promoting any languages, and there are only so many hours in a school week.

      I took French & German at high school in the 80’s (‘O’ Grade + Higher). Also had the option of learning Spanish anaw.

    441. Meg merrilees says:

      BDTT @ 7.01

      Thanks for the link but Blackford lost my interest when he said indy ref will be in 2023.


    442. sarah says:

      @ BDTT: thanks again, Brian. I hadn’t thought to click on “Football”! I’m afraid my husband will now be permanently glued to his laptop – he exclaimed that he’ll be able to watch Argentina v Uruguay tomorrow…

    443. Hatuey says:

      Well, Blackford spoke. If I have any admiration for him turning up and doing so, it’s only because he had the nerve to stand there and go through that tired old routine again.

      He might have mentioned the missing ring-fenced cash that many in the crowd contributed towards. I know, small change to a wealthy banker doing politics for a hobby, but important to ordinary people desperately hoping for change of a different sort.

      But why was he there? Why? Why? Why?

      A thousands times — why?

    444. Benhope says:

      Regarding Scottish culture and education.

      I was educated in the fifties in the north of Scotland and was a decent pupil, (not student) and managed to achieve the qualifications to go to university.

      In my 6 years in secondary school I think we had a different Shakespeare play inflicted on us every year in the the so called English curriculum. I really hated every one of them and absolutely failed to connect to the language.

      Later in life I read the works of Neil Gunn and Lewis Grassic Gibbon. What a difference it would have been to read about catching salmon, surviving great storms at sea and the travails of farming in the Mearns. Most of us pupils could have related easily to these stories and learning would have been so much more interesting.

      I wonder if any teachers here can say if the Shakespeare plays are still a mainstream of the curriculum in our schools? I look back at so many wasted hours. I guess that is how colonialism works. Our teachers were happy to enforce English culture on us all.

      Perhaps so similar to the Ministers of the Kirk supporting the landlords during The Clearances.

      As many here have said multiple times, control the media and you control the population and if you control the education of our children you have a good head start.

    445. Hector says:

      This march today was damp, dreich and uninspiring! We need to rebuild the movement after Covid and we need to understand that we are not in Barcelona. Yes needs to move indoors over the winter, lets have some big,noisy and inspiring musical/cultural/entertaining events with all our favourite and inspiring speakers. Move indoors till May, if we need to crowdfund it, so be it.

    446. Hatuey says:

      Hi Hector. Do you really put the atmosphere today — or lack of it — down to the weather? Moving indoors won’t change the leadership.

      The movement is broken. Its heart is broken.

      Vide Cor Meum

      “While thinking of her
      A sweet sleep came over me
      I am your master
      Here is your heart
      And on this burning heart
      Your heart
      (she) obediently fed
      Then I saw him leaving in tears
      Joy became bitterest lament
      I am in peace
      My heart
      I am in peace
      See my heart”

    447. Breeks says:

      I’ve got a weird and imperfect theory about English language.

      I get what people say about colonialism trying to assert its language as dominant, but my pet theory is that it’s not just linguistic oneupmanship, but English language is perhaps unique and goes further in helping the colonialist, precisely because English is such a powerful, deep, and articulate language.

      English is so expressive, that even the most express and unequivocal statement can still be open to interpretation, and all too often this latitude allows people to win an argument solely with their superior command of English language rather than even being remotely right.

      Perhaps the most graphic illustration of that is the First Nation Americans describing the white man as speaking with a forked tongue, which we interpret rather shallowly as just telling lies, but I think the deception was a lot more sophisticated than simply lying. English language gave the colonialists the capacity to write treaties, deeds and agreements which appeared to say one thing, but the language could be twisted to become ambiguous and open to interpretation.

      People were looking for trouble in the small print, but the deception wasn’t in the small print, it was hidden in plain sight, in the subtle complexities of English language.

      My theory runs that part of the reason the British Empire was so, forgive me, “successful”, was because treaties and agreements people signed in good faith with the British were actually linguistic tar pits, where objective argument and reason was easily bogged down and bushwhacked by the sophistry and deception that was an intrinsic part of the English language.

      The “gift of the gab” if you like, wasn’t merely good salesman’s patter, but actually having a higher command and agility when it came to the subtleties of English language. Agreements were very easy to get into, but thoroughly intractable to get out of.

    448. Scott says:

      Breeks says:
      10 October, 2021 at 2:57 am

      Perhaps the most graphic illustration of that is the First Nation Americans describing the white man as speaking with a forked tongue, which we interpret rather shallowly as just telling lies

      I interpret it as ‘speaking with a lisp’.

    449. Andy Ellis says:

      @Scott 10.02 pm

      “I took French & German at high school in the 80’s (‘O’ Grade + Higher). Also had the option of learning Spanish anaw.”

      I did German Higher and German and French O Grades in the late 70’s: I don’t remember Spanish being an option at my school, but in comparison with most other countries I’ve talked to folk about, we’re just not that great at the promotion of other languages or encouraging kids to become fluent in something other than their mother tongue.

      Perhaps it’s inevitable: we “lucked out” in some respects as English has become the global language, particularly in business and to an extent in science. A lot of my European friends were studying a second language at primary school, and are exposed to English on TV, in music and in films on a daily basis. How many of our kids can communicate in French, German, Spanish or any other language, still less have the time or inclination to be learning Gaelic or “re-learning” Scots?

      I’m not sure I agree with Breeks’ take on why English came to predominate and has become the global language. I’m not sure it would have taken much to change in the 18th century for French for example to have become dominant if they’d managed to defeat the British and exert control over India and America.

    450. W I N G S ! ! !

      come back

    451. willie says:

      Breeks @2.57. You do indeed make a striking comment when you refer to British treaties as ” linguistic tar pits ”

      And the most recent example of that is the deal struck with the EU over Northern Ireland border arrangements.

      Or what about the ” sacred vow ” not so many years ago to be followed up with legislation.

      Two examples but as history shows if you believe anything the British say you deserve all you get. They understand one thing and one thing only and that is force, brute force.

    452. Ottomanboi says:

      Even when the British empire was at its zenith French was the international language in diplomacy at least. It was considered relatively neutral and free of ambiguities as well as carrying more cultural kudos than English. Until WWI German was the language of science.
      The wars in Europe ineluctably led, by default, to the rise of American English. The UK’s joining the EU promoted English within the Brussels bureaucracy. Since leaving that is beginning to change.
      French is predicted to be the top language in Africa in the coming decades as more African states employ it as an auxiliary.
      Indigenous African languages suffer from neglect at the higher registers in most states. Kiswahili is a notable exception.
      In the UK the teaching of «foreign» languages is experiencing decline.
      Except for holiday Spanish, ¡qué!
      German, the most widely spoken language in the European Union, is considered «too hard» and boring by students and lacks competent teachers.
      My short experience of the British of my post mil. generation is one of insularity and proud of it. Do not dare to tamper with such natural ignorance.
      Scots, Gaelic, Arabic etc all Greek to them

    453. Grouse Beater says:

      “We’re not still in the union because we’re being held against our will, it’s because our people lack the political balls to take it by voting overwhelmingly for it rather than asking.” Andy Ellis 5.53pm

      Bollocks from chancer Ellis.

      He parrots SNP bilge: the people are the problem. Scotland does not need a referendum. There is no UN or international rule stating independence must only issue from a referendum. This is a myth promoted by Nicola Sturgeon, her craven we-can-do-nothing ‘Gold Standard’until we have everybody voting ‘Yes’. Moreoever, the SNP was given a landslide victory which the SNP ignored. That victory alone was all that was needed.

      Scotland’s sovereignty remains intact. Stop listening to the waverers, the wafflers and the wankers!

    454. Tannadice Boy says:

      I have read a good number of posts promoting the use of violence to gain Independence. Usually behind a 60 year old piece of work written at the height of the Algerian War of Independence (Frantz Fanon The Wretched of the Earth 1961). I am not surprised there has been complaints about MI5 from these proponents. If I worked for the security services I would be all over them like a cheap suit. The Algerian War of Independence was also a civil war. So you can work out what would happen here without too much imagination. In my view a dangerous development. Compare to the gold standard of 2014 Independence Referendum. Anybody get hurt then?. We fell short of persuading enough Scots. And we have done very little to address their concerns since. I will keep the rotors of the helicopter spinning, just in case, at Edinburgh Airport. Because if you have been involved in a fire fight on the streets you wouldn’t want to do it again.

    455. Davie Oga says:

      The chronology of events went as follows

      The people of Scotland voted for a party that promised a second referendum if there was a material change of circumstances.

      The FM of the government that this party formed formally requested a Sec 30 order from Downing St which was refused.

      Said FM and government did nothing.

      Everything since then has been a merry go round of malevolence and incompetence. Scotland is now no closer to independence than the day after the referendum, possibly further away.

    456. Alf Baird says:

      Breeks @ 2:57 am

      “English language is perhaps unique and goes further in helping the colonialist, precisely because English is such a powerful, deep, and articulate language.”

      Gies a brek.

    457. Republicofscotland says:

      Grouse beater @10.05am well said.

      I’m for the Craig Murray Alex Salmond route out of this rancid union, immediately call back our MPs from Westminster hold a grand assembly at Holyrood have a vote our MPs and MSPs, if yes wins declare independence there and then.

      Everyone who votes will have been represented in this grand assembly vote via the MP or MSP they voted for voting on their behalf.

      The real problem is how to compel Sturgeon to do this, we the people of Scotland are sovereign not Sturgeon, we elected her to carry out our bidding not her agenda. What about say a declaration where we get Scots to sign it and hand a copy to the UN and our FM making it clear as day that we don’t have the luxury of time as she puts it, and that we want the grand assembly held. The UN copy would state that we want to end this treaty of union and that we as a sovereign people have the right to do so without Westminster’s approval or intervention.

    458. Alf Baird says:

      Breeks @ 12:57

      “Perhaps the most graphic illustration of that is the First Nation Americans describing the white man as speaking with a forked tongue, which we interpret rather shallowly as just telling lies”

      Aye, oor doun-hauders appen thair mooths an deceit fa’s oot.

      And the same goes for any colonial and imperial oppressor imposing their bully language and hence marginalising and destroying indigenous languages (and peoples/nations) to facilitate their exploitation, no matter whether it is English, French, Spanish, Russian or whatever. This is all noted in the established theories and literature on Cultural and Linguistic Imperialism, and postcolonialism.

      England’s longstanding colonial domination and exploitation of the Scots is nothing new and should not come as a shock to anyone. But please refrain from describing the oppressors language as ‘articulate’ because that really does indicate a colonial and prejudiced mindset.

    459. Ottomanboi says:

      The mindset of all or nothing re independence is the motivation behind the «completely eliminate the virus and then we can go back to normal» rhetoric. That version of normal will, of course, never come back because viruses don’t pay heed to politicians fantasies.
      Neither is the likelihood of another SNP Westminster landslide with herself in charge.
      The shelf life for politicians ought to be short.
      More brand choice please.

    460. James Che. says:

      In the English language Apparently the description of “twist into nothing = conventions.”

      And the description for “its not real” = a vow”

      The English description for “we own everything = Treaty”

      And the description for indentured = Scots.

    461. thomas says:

      @ Andy Ellis 7.35pm.

      Andy , i was picking you up on your earlier post which seemed to me to be suggesting that despite irish government support for irish as a language , it is still dieing and im suggesting to you why that is.

      Im saying the irish governments past and present have given lukewarm support to irish.They left the language in the hands of volutary groups for decades , despite the hard work and commitment of hundreds of great people , unless irish was made compulsory in every day life for irish people ,(outwith the school environment) the language was next to worthless or at best a plaything for academics with no real use to millions of ordinary irish.

      Scotlands linguistic situation is different mainly in the fact most scots dont know their own native language due to centuries of brainwashing.

      All the old canards duly get trotted out to divide and conquer.

      In my opinion gaidhlig was scotlands native language. It was the common tongue , spoken over all of what is now modern scotland by the 11th century , even as far as north cumbria and the river tyne in England , and since the advent of the macmalcolm dynasty in the 12th / 13th centuries , its has gradually been replaced as the language of the court , of administration and of the people in a process that took centuries .

      We are where we are today though , and while i agree with alf baird on the importance of scotlands native language and culture going forward , i also agree sadly its something that has to take a back seat till independence.

    462. David Caledonia says:

      We had england playing a wee diddy team live on ITV as if anyone in scotland was interested

      Scotland playing Israel…………….. nothing on ITV and all scotland was interested

      This is the union we are in

    463. David Caledonia says:

      Ta Ta

    464. Andy Ellis says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Being described as a chancer on here by someone who made unfounded allegations about me on here which he has signally failed to withdraw or apologise for strikes me as somewhat ironic. Nobody who knows me, or has any grip on reality, can accuse me of spouting SNP bilge.

      You seem to forget Gareth, I was one of the people who very publicly supported you when the SNP subjected you to a kangaroo court, who resigned from the party as a result and even posted pictures of my membership card cut in to pieces. And now I’m an SNP stooge? Are you for real? At least try to have some passing acquaintance with reality, even if I’ve given up hope of you exhibiting any class or moral courage to admit your mistake and apologise for it.

      I agree that Scotland doesn’t necessarily need a referendum and that there are other routes. I’ve argued the case for plebiscitary elections. I’ve pointed out the problems with Craig Murray’s plans and other half baked routes to independence. Joanna Cherry’s recent pronouncements about using a majority of pro indy MSP’s is a great start, but it won’t go anywhere without the support of pro-indy parties and we all know she isn’t speaking for the majority of her party sadly.

      A landslide victory of MPs in Westminster means nothing if it isn’t based clearly on >50% of the popular vote. Similarly, a majority in Holyrood as a rationale for self determination will only be accepted if it is in response to a clear mandate before the vote that a majority of MSPs will be taken as clear authorisation to declare independence. Neither the SNP nor the majority of Scots have signed up for that.

      So yes Gareth, in this instance the people are the problem.

      As a wise man once said”

      “If you want their votes, fucking well persuade them. If you can’t, your case is shit.”

    465. Andy Ellis says:

      @thomas 11.30 am

      I agree the support was lukewarm and could have been much better. Lip service was paid to providing conditions where the language could develop out of the Gaeltacht and be widely used every day to the extent that most Irish people could be comfortable in the language, if not fluent.

      I remember my supervisor at uni telling me about his time in Ireland and the fact that mot government jobs supposedly had a minimum Irish language requirement, but that it was widely flouted and “gotten around”.

      As you say, the situation in Scotland is somewhat different, but we face many of the same challenges.

    466. thomas says:

      @ Ottomanboi 9.53 am

      Totally agree with your post.

      Thats what english is essentialy , a half french hybrid language that had a pr stunt make over in the 14th century ,where French became Inglis , as the norman french elite in england tried to galvanise the saxon peasants to fight for them against their fellow french in France , and then the norman french elite in scotland followed suit and in the 15 th century applied the same pr stunt make over to “inglis” in scotland and called it scots.

      American english keeps the language as the worlds foremost economic language for now at least.

      The trouble with scotland is we have had an elite for centuries desperate to ape the manners and customs of England along with their language , which now seems to be getting replaced by the manners and customs of america.

    467. Grouse Beater says:

      “I agree that Scotland doesn’t necessarily need a referendum and that there are other routes.” Ellis 11.48

      But that doesn’t stop you vomitting contradictory waffle.

    468. thomas says:

      @ Andy Ellis 11.55 am

      Without a doubt Andy.

      Language revival from everything i have read is difficult , but not insurmountable .

      As much as i admire the irish , i think they are probably the worst example of how to proceed in reviving a native language for the various reasons , and more , given.

    469. James Che. says:

      A long time ago I believed a lot of things in good faith,
      That the Snp were the answer to Scottish independence.
      That NS was as faithful to the Scottish people as AS.

      That a voted mandate given was enough of a foundation stone for the snp.
      That they could withdraw their MPs from Westminster, ( Brexit ) being one of those good reasons.
      That NS was friends with AS.
      That our Scots law was good.

      That women were women,
      That parents had voice and were the main protectors of their children not the state.
      That police were fair and not bias or rainbows and unicorns.

      I have had so many believes turned up side down over the last few years in what could only be described as a country that the great enlightenment once came from . Where most modern day inventions first saw the light of day,
      Where people used to have honour of there word.

      But NS and spouse changed the face of SNP beyond recognition, and has progressed to changing people, family identity, and the purpose of courts, law and order.

      I no longer believe that that particular vote mandated politicians are the answer for the Scottish people, especially through a rigged devolved government,
      This awakening revelation of (they do not work for us ) started early on in aftermath of 2014 referendum when the snp rhetoric and stalling became obvious.

      For independence only has one door left now to be trusted,
      and that is the Scottish people.

      It is the Scots people that hold sovereignty.
      It is the Scots people that hold the “ Claim of Right “ to choose a new government,
      It is the Scots people that hold the “ Right to self determination” in legislation
      It is the Scots people that hold the “declaration of Arbroath” over monarchy.

      And it was the Scots as people that were never incorporated into the treaty of the union. Due to the the Scottish Parliament not have untrammelled sovereignty in 1707.

      On the legal side of law the devolved government could NEVER do UDI without the Westminster government imprisoning them as they did in Catalonia, for the Scottish government swore fealty to the crown.

      We did not.
      Somewhere along a very short time line.
      We the people need to take our sovereignty and use it.

      We can declare ourselves sovereign from the devolved government and the Westminster government.

      For that is the right of people to self determination.
      For that is the Claim of Right put into operation
      We choose a new government or assemble.

    470. Andy Ellis says:

      @Grouse Beater 12.03 pm

      Feel free to point out what it is you assert I’m contradicting myself about Gareth.

      Unlike you, I’m not above admitting when I’m wrong and apologising. I’m all ears.

      There again, unlike you, I don’t make unfounded allegations about people on line and then petulantly refuse to withdraw them after it’s pointed out I was wrong. You never did provide this evidence you said you had of me contacting Stu Campbell about you. Why might that be?

      Either you have the evidence and aren’t providing it when asked, or it doesn’t exist, or it does exist but relates to someone else entirely.

      None of them are a particularly good look and nome of them reflect well on you.

    471. Andy Ellis says:

      @thomas 12.04 pm

      That may be a bit harsh on our Irish friends! I’m not sure how many other people have tried and succeeded in “reviving” a language? Welsh and Breton, despite declines in both, still seem to be doing better than Irish and Gaelic and it can hardly be said Breton gets much (any?) support from the French state I think?

      Most of the major languages in Europe had several distinct dialects before being standardised on one “acceptable” national one which was then imposed.

      I remember watching a BBC programme years ago about languages and their evolution that had Mary Marquis (who was on Reporting Scotland in my youth) reading the news in Scots as linguists thought it “would have been” had Scotland continued outside the UK. Scots and English would presumably be a bit like Norwegian and Swedish or Danish – although none of the Scandinavians I know have much of an issue understanding the other Scandinavian languages…except Icelandic maybe!

    472. Hatuey says:

      Anyway, that was the best game of football I’ve seen in years.

      And I made a few quid with a correct score bet.

      For a few fleeting moments it felt like a bad marriage rather than a colony, Nicola was merely an underachiever, and I robot-danced on the sunlit fields of spring…

      Life is a musical.

    473. Merganser says:

      Nicola Sturgeon: ‘I’ve got time on my side’.

      Me: ‘Don’t you know that time is not my friend, I’ll fight it to the end’

      Heaven help my heart.

    474. Alf Baird says:

      thomas @ 11:30 am

      “We are where we are today though , and while i agree with alf baird on the importance of scotlands native language and culture going forward , i also agree sadly its something that has to take a back seat till independence.”

      As the Scots language is a fundamental determinant of our national (Scots) identity it cannot be disregarded. Language forms the basis of our national consciousness which is what gives us the desire for nationhood in the first place.

      The Scottish independence ‘battleground’ and divide is in large part linguistic, reflecting the same divide for all peoples in self-determination conflict. The 2011 census recorded just 1.6 million people who said they speak Scots. I expect the delayed census till 2022 will show further decline. As Scots speakers decline so does their national consciousness, and so will the desire for independence. Which is the purpose of colonial assimilation, and cultural and linguistics imperialism, the latter continually active whilst Scotland remains in the UK, whilst the teaching of the Scots language tae aw Scots bairns in oor schuils is aye prohibited.

      So no, the Scots language is never “something that has to take a back seat till independence”, though it will continue to be marginalised by a mostly unionist Anglophone meritocracy, resulting in ongoing socio-linguistic prejudice which is at the root of our inequality.

    475. Hatuey says:

      Alf, serious question… have you ever tried robot dancing? I find it helps sometimes.

      It would be easier for a robot to dance through the eye of a needle than it would be for a nationalist to enter the kingdom of Marxism.

      True that.

    476. Hatuey says:

      Merganser, I hope you drop by more often.

      ScotGov eats broken hearts for breakfast. They wash them down with mugs of tears.

      We are in one of those eras where nothing progresses. It only take a handful of selfish bastards for history to stop.

      You’ve just got to wait it out.

    477. Ebok says:

      Ottomanboi @ 11.02 am

      ‘More brand choice please.’

      Well, here’s a novel idea: all politicians battling for Scotland. All MSP’s working together to make Scotland what it can be, should be.
      The trouble is, of course, party politics. Like the oldest and most successful con since the dawning of mankind, party politicians insist that it is only by following their doctrine we’ll get it right.

      But all political parties have been infiltrated and are controlled to at least some extent by self-serving interests and look where we are now. We are on a wing and a prayer that ALBA can make an impact, but this really is, for me, the last chance saloon for party politics.
      Politics is, after all, mostly about collecting revenues and re-distributing these revenues in a fair and equitable manner. All that is required is to have the power and the means. Why do you have to be affiliated to a political party to do that? I’d settle for ANY 129 honest, hardworking, reasonably intelligent Scots, who are prepared to work together to get us out of the cesspit we find ourselves. It would certainly be a vast improvement on the 129 PARTY politicians we have right now.

      So, no, I don’t want more brand choice, I want better priorities – independence, elimination of poverty, education, drugs action – from politicians who know the meaning of integrity.

    478. Clavie Cheil says:

      Disaster For Sturgeon last night. Scotland won in injury time. It was the last thing that ("Tractor" - Ed) wanted.

    479. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      “Nicola Sturgeon overruled Covid aides in ‘cover-up’ over outbreak at Nike conference in Edinburgh”

    480. Ottomanboi says:

      The rule «if you don’t use it you lose it» applies to language as much as to physical snd mental health.
      It is so easy to be lazy. A French witticism goes «English is an easy language to speak badly» another is «what is not clear is not French».
      Languages develop when in contact with others. That was the case of English and until circa 1600, Scots. Both expanded, in their particular ways, vocabulary and syntax as a result of contact with European cultures.. English continued to develop as the language of the burgeoning British state, Scots was stopped dead by the same. The Anglo-Scottish dialect is a mere shadow of the «real thing». By design? The promotion of English through the education system was certainly a feature of old style imperialist, Unionism.
      Language planning is at the heart of matter of restoration. The SNP has it seems a rather hands off attitude to matters deeply culture, I doubt that the term «language planning» will signify. In a nationalist context it really ought.
      Language is not merely a utilitarian system of communication it is a portmanteau of historic and unique ethno-cultural signs of infinite human variety. There is by the way no such thing as a «primitive language» the classic resort mode of those promoting linguistic and cultural uniformity.
      «Minority languages» also throw a subversive wrench into the works of the Globalist machine.

    481. Republicofscotland says:

      The man that’s supposed to represent Scotland in the tory cabinet doesn’t even believe Scotland is a nation, let alone represent it.

    482. Republicofscotland says:

      Johnson gets HIS priorities right.

      “As the UK contends with fuel, food and gas shortages – and millions of families face being plunged into poverty after having their benefits cut – the Prime Minister has decided its time for some R and R in a “luxury villa” near Marbella.”

    483. Ottomanboi says:

      Totally agree, political «consumables» that fail the what’s on the label test should be binned and never recycled under a new brand. That, however, is in the hands of the consumer.
      Independence isn’t a secret ingredient, it’s what the marketing ought to be about; boldly displayed.

    484. Pixywine says:

      Its good to look behind the headlines.

    485. Pixywine says:

      The reason Sturgeon covered up a “covid outbreak” is because she knows its overblown exaggerated fear porn.

    486. Scott says:

      Pixywine says:
      10 October, 2021 at 3:26 pm

      Crowder is a fucking fool.

      As are you.

      But then I’m just a dumb Jock…

    487. Alf Baird says:

      Ottomanboi @ 2:30 pm

      “The rule «if you don’t use it you lose it» applies to language as much as to physical snd mental health.”

      Aye, a people without their own language is a people without their own identity, and this also opens them up to colonial exploitation and marginalisation by supposedly ‘superior’ cultures and languages imposed on them.

      Loss of language and then loss of identity tends to follow loss of sovereignty, as we see with the Gaelic and Scots languages. Loss of language therefore undermines a people’s sense of identity, belonging and place. A language is inevitably going to be lost when it is no longer taught, which is the aim of Linguistic Imperialism.

      We might remember that language is a human right and according to the Council of Europe reports on minority languages the Scots language shuid bi taucht tae aw bairns in Scotlan’s schuils, an hit isnae ony prablem at aw tae dae, an shuid hiv bin duin bi thon daeless SNP Meenisters lang afore noo.

      Diversity is extensively protected for birds and animals in our society, but not it seems for certain ethnic groups of people, such as the Scots.

    488. Pixywine says:
      Its insane in the 21st century having to self censor for fear of being silenced by Wojiki.
      Scott. Looks like you’re my case officer. Can you come up with an argument and not an arse full of mindless invective?

    489. Watched England game on STV what happened to showing Scotland. First time I have seen a woman ref in charge great and she put up no nonsense Scotland were on Radio Scotland .VAR used in both games is that a first .Sorry Chas the clearances are a part of history I dont remember being taught about. Watched World at War today the battle for Caen place blasted to rubble Camera caught a boy walking along the road he saw something on the road bent down picked it up rubbed it on his arm and put it in his mouth and walked on out of camera shot. So natural I said out loud to the tv hope you made it son.

    490. Pixywine says:

      Scott. When I refer to “Dumb Jocks” I mean people like you who can’t see the woods for the trees. You have a losers reach.
      A fellow dumb Jock.

    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

    ↑ Top