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A question of values

Posted on May 16, 2017 by

We were intrigued to hear Labour activist Duncan Hothersall tell radio listeners this morning that his party’s opposition to independence was rooted in “Labour values”, and most specifically by his assertion that “nationalism and socialism are opposites”.

So we thought we’d take a look back at our last Panelbase opinion poll, which we conducted in February, and see what the values of Unionists were.

We were able to do that because we’d asked a number of social-attitudes questions which weren’t related to the constitutional issue. And studies on the Brexit referendum had shown that the best indicators of whether someone had voted Leave or Remain were their demographics and wider social views, with a particularly strong correlation between voting Leave and wanting the death penalty brought back.

And as it happened our own poll mirrored those findings. Remain voters in Scotland opposed the return of hanging by a margin of 14 points – 36% in favour, 50% against – while Leave voters overwhelmingly backed the return of the rope by a margin of 48 points (66 to 18). That’s a huge 62-point gap.

(We already knew it wasn’t party political, because every party in Scotland supported a Remain vote, yet all saw substantial proportions of their voters back Leave.)

So we weren’t all that shocked when comparing the poll responses from Yes and No voters turned up some similarly wide social gulfs. Slightly curiously, the death penalty wasn’t one of them (Yes voters backed it by +8 points with No voters only slightly higher at +14), but elsewhere Scotland was very much a nation of two tribes, divided on independence lines over things that were nothing to do with independence.

 We ranked the questions in order of the size of the gap, biggest first.

80 POINTS: NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Yes voters opposed retaining Trident by -35, No voters backed it by +45.

75 POINTS: THE MONARCHY
Yes voters: opposed by 10 points. No voters: support by 65 points.

63 POINTS: VOTES AT 16
Yes voters: support by 29 points. No voters: oppose by 34 points.

59 POINTS: NAMED PERSON LEGISLATION
Yes voters: support by 18 points. No voters: oppose by 41 points.

57 POINTS: ARMED FORCES SPENDING
When asked if Scotland should reduce military spending and divert the money to public services, Yes voters backed the proposal by 17 points, whereas No voters opposed it by 40 points.

52 POINTS: ENGLISH VOTES FOR ENGLISH LAWS
Yes voters: opposed by 4 points. No voters: support by 48 points.

41 POINTS: THERE IS TOO MUCH IMMIGRATION TO THE UK
Yes voters: agreed by 7 points. No voters: agreed by 48 points.

39 POINTS: THERE IS TOO MUCH IMMIGRATION TO SCOTLAND
Yes voters: disagreed by 12 points. No voters: agreed by 27 points.

38 POINTS: WORKFARE
Asked if welfare claimants should have to work a full-time week in return for their benefits, Yes voters disagreed by 25 points, No voters agreed by 13 points.

35 POINTS: PRIORITISING RENEWABLE ENERGY
Yes voters: agreed by 71 points. No voters: agreed by 36 points.

32 POINTS: NATIONALISE RAILWAYS
Yes voters: agreed by 64 points. No voters: agreed by 32 points.

(Even the smallest of those is a big difference. The EU referendum vote in Scotland is generally considered to have been a thumping victory for Remain, but it was still only 24 points, lower than any of the margins above.)

So the values of Unionism are apparently monarchy, weapons of mass destruction, militarism in general, denying the vote to young adults, refusing to protect children, opposition to immigration, second-class Scottish MPs, forced labour for the poor and (relative) resistance to clean energy and public ownership.

And we know what you’re probably thinking at this point, but we checked, and it wasn’t a case of the No figures being distorted by Tories. There were no cases where there was a significant difference between the views of No voters as a whole and the views of Labour voters – the biggest discrepancy we found was nine points, on the monarchy, but the Labour voters were still in favour by 46 points.

The truth of the matter is that socialist values simply now belong, beyond any rational dispute on the basis of the facts, to the Yes side.

That’s by no means to say that the SNP, or even the wider independence movement, are intrinsically socialist. But those who believe in traditional “Labour values” – those embodied in the old Clause IV – have almost all moved to independence, presumably believing it a far more plausible route to enacting those values in Scotland.

It seems that Scottish Labour would rather hang by the neck than keep up with them.

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    1. 16 05 17 18:56

      A question of values | speymouth

    2. 17 05 17 08:04

      Ruth shows her patriotism by demonising half her country - Autonomy Scotland

    169 to “A question of values”

    1. Dave says:

      Bit confused as to what Labour in Scotland has to do with socialism.

    2. Robert Roddick says:

      Looks like Hothersall like too many Labour supporters have never heard of Kier Hardie or RB Cunninghame Graham.

    3. gordoz says:

      Oooooft –

      Right in he hardstaines ! Incisive as ever Rev.

      Home truths always hurt! but Labour new this for years
      Jimmy Hood et al just a shame numpties like Dugdale have no sense if smell regarding coffee etc.

    4. TheStrach says:

      Good. The sooner Not Labour shuffles off its mortal coil the better.

    5. winifred mccartney says:

      Well Jeremy C was CND all of his life but when push came to shove he bottled it and did not impost the whip for the renewal of Trident. He has now bottled it on the democracy of the free world with his opposition of another indy ref voted for by the democratically elected Scottish Parliament.

      He would rather join his other turncoats and sit in the HOL. His real labour values have been kicked out in the labour shadow cabinets lust for power and he, like labour in Scotland, deserve all that is coming to them.

      Would it not be better to die with your principles in tact than give them all up and die anyway after being used and abused by the tories.

    6. Cuilean says:

      My 20 yr old (a student) has a provisional summer job with a fast food chain – but has to work an initial 6 hours shift FOR NOTHING to ‘see how it goes’ and, only ‘if that works out’, will there be a job.

      I don’t know about you, but in my day that was called slave labour & against the law. Seems anything goes now, as people are so desperate for any menial work, and the employers all have the upper hand, with a like it or lump it ‘Sports Direct’ attitude to workers. Beelin’.

    7. galamcennalath says:

      The Rev says

      … no cases where there was a dramatic difference between the views of No voters and the views of Labour voters …

      That really is quite astonishing. Residual Labour voters in Scotland have views which are virtually indistinguishable from Tory voters on issues beyond the constitution.

      That will also put them at odds with most of the policies of the party they profess to support, Labour.

      There is now no such thing as a centre left Unionist, although some Labour politicians might claim otherwise.

      Surprising clarity!

    8. Walter Scott says:

      Labour would prefer to die in trench fighting against a Scottish independence that could deliver on their “labour values” But instead they destroy themselves supporting the right of the most extreme rightwing Tory government in living memory to rule without bothering to heed labour’s values. Labour are like the lost tribe. Nobody trusts them & nobody’s listening to them

    9. Proud Cybernat says:

      Nice one Rev. DH skewered. (Didn’t want to say ‘kippered’).

      YES = Progressive.

      NO = Aggressive.

    10. Robert Graham says:

      Corbyn & Mayhem being advised by the branch offices no doubt , and very badly at that , probably as in colonial days westminster took the view that the local agent knew best and acted accordingly .
      Thats why its a farce the monkeys are debating with the first minister and the Organ Grinders are safely back at headquarters ,
      This means they can say whatever they like and get away with it unquestioned by our media , just like the Vow its an Orphan no one wants to claim it , these debates are the same total pish .

    11. Donald MacKenzie says:

      One day historians will, I’m sure, give serious academic study as to why a once powerful political movement committed suicide in a most open and transparent way. It was provided with all the information it needed to set itself in a direction that would have kept in the forefront of politics in Scotland, but chose to ignore all that and pursue an alternative path against the wishes of its rank-and-file support.

      Fascinating. Wonderful, but fascinating.

    12. K1 says:

      It is precisely because Labour shed their ‘socialist values’ that huge swathes of Scotland’s population now back the SNP. Labour even if they had a snowball’s chance in hell of returning to power down south would have to revert tae Blairite form…JC is not the new messiah…he’s just a very public hypocrite.

    13. Morgatron says:

      A marvelous article Stu. Just superb.

    14. jimnarlene says:

      @ Proud Cybernat.

      Yes=Progressive, No=Aggressive. Spot on, as clearly the articles conclusion shows.

    15. donald anderson says:

      Great British Labour values.

    16. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Excellent information. Well done.
      I was quite depressed today as I sat at in a room full of YES supporters who don’t seem to understand why the Tories and their friends are banging on about no referendum. It is because they know that if we start a referendum now from our high forties position our army will win it. They are shitting themselves

      But my friends had all reacted the way the unionists want. We don’t want another referendum now/soon.

      I assured my friends that id the unionist knew they would win they would be shouting bring it on. All sort of assumptions were trotted out.

      Our old NO folks need to be allowed to die – never a though that they will be replaced by other old folks.

      Our young folks will win it for us. I remember the explosion of young supporters in the sixties. A majority of the survivors of that explosion will have voted NO.

      The economic collapse following Brexit will win people to independence. Will it not as readily win them to a dependency position?

      We will never have this opportunity, this open door, again. And all of Europe will egg us on.

      Many days I wish I was Irish.

    17. heedtracker says:

      SLabour’s two pronged attack, block independence, win middle England vote that seems to decide all UK elections. Bomber Blair and Crash Gordon won that middle England over, until Murdoch, BBC etc decided Gordo was out. Looks like a long time in the wilderness awaits.

    18. One_Scot says:

      The hard fact of the matter is, ‘Scottish’ Labour has no reason to exist any more.

      The SNP protects Scotland and the working class, while the Tories undermine Scotland by defending the union at any cost.

      Scotland has become SNP v Tories, and there can be only one winner, which will hopefully be an Independent Scotland.

    19. Dr Jim says:

      Labour values are what they think will win them votes this week until they’re proved not to then Labour values will become a whole new set of Labour values which will turn out to be valueless

      It’s a bit like telling folk their opinions are shit on a regular basis until those folk get fed up being told stuff and they switch off listening to this weeks new opinion they were told was OK last week by another guy

      The trouble the Labour party have is how do you hide the fact you’re just the same as the Tories without the people finding out the truth
      Well the answer is in the 21st century you can’t, the folk Jeremy’s waving his red book at are nearly all dead and the younger smarter people will wave their Technology Tablet with all the information on it right back at you shouting
      Heard it!

      We can all be sure of one thing though we’ll have learned a valuable lesson so the Labour party will in the end have had Value!

    20. Mike says:

      Corbyn is probably the one party member left in labour who isn’t a Red Tory Blairite.
      Labour in Scotland are all 100% pure Red Tory Blairite. Without a doubt they would rather lose to the Conservatives than the SNP to the point of voting Tory in order to allow it to happen.
      The GE in Scotland will be a test on how many labour and Lib Dems decide that anti SNP tactical voting is more important than party choice or political policy choices.

      As long as the SNP doesn’t lose any of its vote to any of the yoon parties it wont matter how many seats they lose to tactical voting. The Yoons wont be able to successfully spin tactical seat wins as anything other than a stagnation in support of the Yoonion and not a resurgence against Independence.

    21. Al says:

      This is very interesting indeed.

      It can be argued that Yes is also now the home of liberal values. Does your analysis also hold true for Liberal Democrats? Is there any appreciable difference between the social attitudes of the remaining Liberal Democrat voters and No voters? Or, in view of their more advanced state of collapse in all but a few pockets of the country, has their sub-sample become too small to draw any statistically sensible conclusions?

    22. Hamish100 says:

      Labour – Scottish edition has given up in regaining Tory voters back to their ranks so they go in ever decreasing circles wondering who to blame. The leaders are unionists so they can’t blame their yoony pals.

      Hothersall really is a complete twat on the radio. More please BBC.

      I should say he is just a twat.

    23. Shinty says:

      Cuilean – I was completely gobsmacked when I recently found out about this. Our local hotel is zero contract hours, they also bring in new school kids/others who will work an entire wedding reception or event, only to be told and the end of the shift, thanks but no thanks.

      I honestly could not believe this was happening so I looked it up – it is of course completely illegal.

      You can as an employer ask a potential employee to attend a trial/training session BUT the employer cannot be paid for this work.

    24. Macart says:

      Something Labour forgot a very long time ago.

      Social justice and socialist values don’t belong to anyone. The common weal, fellow feeling, simple human decency and compassion have been around a lot longer than any political party or dogma. They don’t wear rosettes. They don’t owe anyone a vote and they can’t be bought.

      You either have them, or you don’t.

    25. Paul D says:

      Cuilean @ 16 May, 2017 at 5:20 pm

      Unfortunately, not that uncommon it seems. My GF had to do a 4 hour shift at a data entry company for no pay on the same basis. Needless to say, neither she or the 5 other people got the supposed job.

    26. Bob Mack says:

      The problem with Scot Lab is that it has lost it’s way.
      It no longer has a moral compass Everything it does is based on fear and loathing fanned by anger. With that recipe you are inevitably making wrong decisions and assumptions.

      Great article Rev.

    27. Dan Huil says:

      I think britnat newspapers would hold near-exact figures as the No group.

    28. Bill McLean says:

      We need to be out of the UK mess soonest. Waiting for Brexit will just be too late – and that will mean forever!

    29. Ian McCubbin says:

      These reasons from the good analysis here are why in October 2014 I joined the SNP.
      It does seem it was a eureaka moment for many that year. I hope more see it now and come on board.

    30. JGedd says:

      Exactly what my own experience told me about present day Labour voters.

      People like myself moved to voting SNP not on a tide of nationalist sentiment but because we came to see that the values of social justice could only survive in a separate Scotland. From this poll, evidently that is what opponents of indpendence also think which is why they are so against a separate Scotland and determined to maintain the Union and so preserve right-wing domination.

      As Stuart says, it is like two different tribes and the residual Labour vote is essentially a Tory one. It actually gives me a shiver of apprehension to see the differences demonstrated so starkly. Wonder if it bothers Kezia at all?

    31. Marco McGinty says:

      A blatant lie in the Tory Party Election Broadcast that recently aired on STV;

      “In the most recent elections, it was the Scottish Conservatives, not Labour, which took on the SNP and won.”

      Eh, hold on!

      SNP seats won – 431
      Tory seats won – 276

      1-0 to the SNP

      SNP first preference vote – 610,454
      Tory first preference vote – 478,073

      2-0 to the SNP

      SNP first preference vote share – 32.3%
      Tory first preference vote share – 25.3%

      3-0 to the SNP

      SNP regions where largest party – 19
      Tory regions where largest party – 7

      4-0 to the SNP

      So, the Tories didn’t come ahead of the SNP on anything whatsoever, but they somehow believe they won the election!

      Deluded clowns!

    32. Robert Louis says:

      I have on many occasions tried and tried seriously, to consider all the arguments and work out WHY Labour in Scotland are so stuck in this anti independence dogma, and I just can’t understand it. I really have tried to look at it from their perspective, outwith my own views.

      I have seen all they have written and said on the matter, but when you get down to hard facts it just makes no sense.

      For example, just imagine if Labour had sided with the YES side in 2014, leaving the Tories to fight the NO campaign by themselves. Scotland would, I do not doubt, be independent by now, and it is a very distinct possibility that they would in some form of coalition be running Scotland, implementing policies which on a daily basis their chums in England could show voters down south, and shame the Tories.

      Indeed by now Labour would be seen as the heroes of Scotland, and may have re-taken the vote share they lost to the SNP.

      Instead, they sided with and actively supported (including speaking at the Tory Party conference) the Tories in their NO vote. Who benefited from that NO result? The Tories in London? Oh yes, very much so. Did it benefit Labour in Scotland at all? NO, not at all. Indeed it directly lead to them losing all bar one of their Scottish MP’s and being relegated to third place. behind the Tories in the Scots Parliament. All that the anti independence dogma of Labour has achieved is to literally destroy Labour in Scotland. They have now even lost control of Glasgow council.

      No matter how you look at it, no matter how you consider the benefits and losses, the stance by Labour in Scotland to oppose self determination for the people of Scotland (incidentally, they support self determination in every other country around the world) is just absurd. It has done nothing but made them an object of hate by their former voters.

      Now, here in 2017, on the brink of ten or more years of extreme hard right Tory rule from London, and the catastrophic brexit madness, they still oppose Scottish self determination, and now even oppose the idea of a democratic vote on the matter. None of those matches a socialist perspective. None.

      So, the question I have always asked myself since 2014, is this, just why do labour in Scotland oppose Scottish self determination? It makes no sense at all.

    33. ROBBO says:

      It would be very interesting to find out how the figures were broken down in age groups. I suspect as a pensioner many of my lot still find it difficult to move with the times. Strange as from a generation of the ‘Dylan- Times they are a changing’ they seem to have conveniently forgotten these days when ‘new’ progressive thinking challenged old traditional values that seem to stubbornly linger on within the Unionist parties mindset.

    34. jfngw says:

      Had to laugh at the Dugdale clip on Rep Scot, she cannot endorse Corbyn’s manifesto because she basically disagrees with all of it. This left her to fall back on the only thing she has left, no independence referendum, so opposing a vote that has already happened is the policy then.

    35. Alan McKinnon Findlay says:

      I pay a £5 a month for this sort of stuff; great value

    36. K1 says:

      Robert Louis, is it not simply the case that there is in fact no ‘Scottish Labour’ party? When you factor that simple fact into your reasoning it becomes very obvious that the Labour Party and the Conservative Party are ideologically ‘unionist’. This is why it was so easy for them to join forces with the Tories during the ref campaign. Many more Scot’s woke up to this reality back then, the GE result confirms this, with the complete wipeout of Labour MP’s bar one, from Scotland.

      The constitutional question and the subsequent long campaign ensured that as many people in Scotland become cognisant of the reality of ‘who’ Labour really ‘work for’ in Scotland. There is no Scottish Labour Party. There is only Labour, PLP. They and they alone make the decisions in terms of policies as they relate to the region called Scotland. They are unionist to a tee.

    37. galamcennalath says:

      Compare SNP’s achievements in the last 10 years ….

      https://www.snp.org/record

      …. with Labour’s Holyrood administrations before them. Can anyone remember anything significant the actually did?

    38. Capella says:

      IMO “conservatives” are driven by fear. They fear poverty, starvation, crime, foreigners, intruders, snoopers, spies, Russia, change.

      So they want a “big daddy/mummy” to protect them and their hoard from all the bad people out there. Hence the massive weapons, the army, the monarchy, the death penalty, prisons, police, secret societies, bossy politicians, index linked securities.

      But they don’t want to pay for that from their meager hoard. Somebody else must be made to pay. The poor, the vulnerable, the disabled, children, immigrants.

      Would it not be kinder to provide counselling for the chronically frightened Unionist voter?

    39. Dr Jim says:

      @galamcennalath at 7.13 pm

      They built 6 houses

      I mean that’s got to go down in history

    40. jfngw says:

      @galamcennalath

      They handed lots of money back to WM, as the infrastructure in Scotland was apparently almost on a par with the SE of England. Well it must have been or why else would they do it, perhaps we can ask one of the Scottish Lords from the period to answer.

    41. K1 says:

      They’d be unwilling to ever seek counselling Capella. Another characteristic is their overweening arrogance that they are ‘right’ about how they view the world and it’s everyone else that’s ‘off their heads’. So nae luck bar a complete nervous breakdown or some personal event that triggers a massive reassessment/awkakening will ever alter their outlook.

    42. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath – off the top of the head, yes. Labour introduced the Right to Roam legislation (Land Reform Scotland Act 2003), set up the Cairngorms National Park http://cairngorms.co.uk/ and introduced Wildlife Protection law (2006 I think).

      I’m sure there will be other instances. So not all bad.
      But, as a branch office, they seem very limited to whatever Westminster deems appropriate.

    43. Rock says:

      The only Labour value is to gain power, no matter how much rightwards they have to move.

      Complete liars and hypocrites, the whole lot of them.

    44. Cuilean says:

      The chain is ‘Tony Macaroni’, if you are interested.

      So if you are eating out there (or any of these other large chains any time soon), ask your waitress/waiter if they are working their first (last)? and therefore unpaid shift!

      What a hellish country the UK has become, and no-one seems to care. Would Theresa May or her husband Philip work six hours for nothing? No, but they are the top 1% or ‘The Capitol’ President Snow to all our Katniss’s and Haymitchs. We are District 12, in this dystopian reality or possibly District 13 (the one which ceased to exist).

      There are no UK workers rights’ and that is still while we are IN the EU.

      The odds are never in your favour but spare a smile or secret tip for your waiter, it may be the ONLY pay they get for their first (last) shift.

      Actually, if ‘Tony Macaroni’ don’t pay my child after a 6 hour shift, they’ll be heading for the local small claims court where they can explain to any Scots Sheriff why they don’t owe their worker any remuneration for their labour. That’ll be interesting.

    45. Capella says:

      @ K1 – you’re probably right, as in
      A Tory is a Liberal who’s been mugged and a Liberal is a Tory who’s been arrested.

      But Project Fear was obviously aimed at conservatives of all Parties. They are terrified of losing their money and security and, in England, being overrun by foreigners.

    46. Robert Peffers says:

      I’ve been telling anyone who would listen that they are all the one lot at in the Establishment at Westminster. Someone else, the other day, compared them to be like those rather bad Hollywood formula gangster movies where the NYPD would use the Bad Cop vs Good Cop game to get the bad guys to confess.

      I compared them to the big families still prevalent when I was a boy. You went to visit your pal who was one of those big families and it was pandemonium from breakfast to bed time as there was always someone in an argument, or even a fight, with someone else.

      Yet if an outsider fell out with a family member they ganged up on the outsider.

      So that’s us in Scotland and thus our elected representatives at Westminster are the outsiders that the Establishment all gang up on. Their Scottish Branch offices are just like those big family’s cousins who were called upon as reinforcements when one big family fell out with another big family of outsiders.

    47. ScottishPsyche says:

      This thing that is Slab, what is it? What are they?

      Each supposed clever move is only designed to outmanoeuvre the SNP. Every policy seems to contradict the last.Their supposed ideological purity is contaminated and polluted in the quest for power. Everything they say they used to stand for is diluted, distorted and unrecognisable as they cling on to the Union.

      Well, Slab, sell your soul for the Yoon vote, the rest of us will get on with making a better Scotland.

    48. Fairliered says:

      Labour and tories are just two cheeks of the same arse. The only difference is the angry orange boil on the tory cheek; which needs to be lanced on 8th June.

    49. Al Dossary says:

      @Cuilean,

      There is a certain company, heavily involved in the construction and commissioning side of the offshore oil industry who do something similar each year.

      AMEC / QEDI every year hold 3 or 4 recruitment fairs across the UK. Usually there is one in Scotland and 2 or 3 in England. What happens at these fairs is that time served, qualified tradesmen travel at their own expense to the event. Once there, they partake in a multiple choice “Trade Test”, and complete some training.

      There is no pay received for this, but unless you are prepared to attend their “induction / trade test” then generally you will not be considered for their scopes of work offshore.

      To compound the insult, someone from Wick for example may have to make the journey to Glasgow, Newcastle or Teeside just to attend the day on the hope hat they may or may not get a call for the job I the next few months. No pay or expenses are given for this trip worthy of John Candy / Leslie Nelson proportions.

      Contrast this to their system some 15 years back where you would travel to Aberdeen for a trade test and induction. You received a return train fair, a days pay and were more or less guaranteed a job if you passed the test.

    50. JGedd says:

      So the values of Unionism are apparently monarchy, weapons of mass destruction, militarism in general, denying the vote to young adults, refusing to protect children, opposition to immigration, second-class Scottish MPs, forced labour for the poor and (relative) resistance to clean energy and public ownership.

      These are the values of the residual Labour vote and the reason why they want to keep the Union. It is essentially a right-wing vote.

      Like many others I left Labour because they no longer stood for my values and I believed that those who went on voting Labour were quite sanguine about giving up those values.

      I came to believe that the only way to have a society built on social justice was to be independent. Evidently those who wish to preserve Scotland in the Union do so for the opposite reason. Horsestall and Kezia must know that, but keep on paying lip service to an ideaology which no longer exists in SLab.

      It is like two different tribes, split not on ethnic lines but on differing sets of values. When I look at what our opponents wish for Scotland, they scare the bejasus out of me.

    51. K1 says:

      Corri Wilson SNP MP (ex) for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock’s crowdfunder is struggling somewhat, finishes tomorrow morning with only £800 of the £4,000 she needs to fund her re election bid…can we spread the link to help her oot? She only has PayPal as form of payment on the site but can accept donations, her email is provided on the page so can be contacted if people preffered to help out by sending funds by other means. (She may well have met her target, if those other means have bypassed the crowdfund, there are no indicators on the page to suggest this though)

      bhttp://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/corri-wilson-snp?utm_source=Projects+Funding+Now&utm_campaign=8d40cde201-HYPERP_TUES_2017_05_16&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0b7853e26e-8d40cde201-200101301

    52. Fireproofjim says:

      Another blind spot of the No voters is their disbelief that small countries in Northern Europe are richer and happier than the UK.
      I tell anyone who will listen about my experiences in Denmark, Sweden, Norway and other similar countries, and that they are all about the same size as Scotland, but most No voters just look blank and don’t see the connection between prosperity and independence.

    53. Breeks says:

      I have a much more immediate question of values.

      What kind of values does it require to promote the 2014 Referendum result as a legitimate result which we should all respect, when it was “won” by a sustained and prolonged deluge of biased propaganda, wilful distortion of the truth, flagrant manipulation of the Independence narrative, the smearing and character assassination of CyberNats and pro YES advocates like Alex Salmond.

      In flagrant disregard of Purdah, a former U.K. Prime Minister was paraded on our TV screens to put the fear of Gord into our pensioners, supported by the notorious Vow which promised so much and delivered less than nothing.

      If anyone had sought win a tendered contract using the tactics and ethics of the Better Together campaign and its BBC propagandists, you’d be jailed for dishonesty, corruption, and grossly inappropriate interference with due process.

      I like to think that had the pro-Independence YES side been responsible for such a catalogue of grossly inappropriate distortion of relevant issues, then me, as a Yesser would forever-after be mortally embarrassed even to refer to the tragic injustice of such wanton and undemocratic impropriety. I would feel morally obliged to support a full audit and correction of all improprieties before a complete rerun of the entire affair again.

      I don’t care if Unionists want to bring back hanging or buy a tank for every soldier in the army. First and foremost they have profited handsomely from confounding and cheating Scottish democracy and haven’t the dignity or grace to acknowledge the handling of the referendum and supporting debate was a complete farce and a tragedy. I cannot find it within me to respect the 2014 result as anything greater than con-job it was.

      The odious 2014 actually has been respected, in that there hasn’t been a undemocratic UDI to overturn it. But I haven’t respected it. I feel cheated and bereaved, and consumed with simmering black rage whenever some Unionist trumpet tells me to respect the legitimacy of a NO result which was stolen by the mendacity of the BBC.

    54. Glamaig says:

      O/T has anyone noticed the new pound coin has a rose, thistle, leek and shamrock together on the same design and there is only one design, no separate Scottish/English/Welsh designs?

      Assimilation is the plan…

    55. Bob Mack says:

      It is important to remember that Labour never achieved an overall majority until 1945. Since that time there have only been 3 occasions where their majority did not need Scottish MP’s. Wilson and Blair (2), who both had majorities over 100.

      The loss of Scottish MP’s therefore is an existential threat to their control over the whole UK without forming coalitions.

      I think this is why they are so determined now to keep Scotland. It is self preservation rather than the preservation of rights. In trying to keep it they are losing it.

    56. stu mac says:

      @Robert Louis
      ============

      If Labour had even honestly been supporting a proper federalist policy they might have gotten somewhere. However they were anti-any extra powers for Scotland until the last minute when panicked into offering more devolution. But their actions afterwards in reneging on every promise means no one would believe such an offer now even if they made it – what do you mean they did?

    57. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      What Stu is picking up on here is a dark seam in the mindset of people that the Tories are now seriously attempting to tap into and mine. The EURef first opened the can of worms but now it’s gone much further. The Tories are trying to divert people from thinking about their personal well-being (the whole UK) and about independence in particular (Scotland). It’s a “hearts and minds” struggle for control of the agenda, using Brexit as the lever.

      Labour has always been a coalition between working people, many of whom frankly have never been “progressives” by any stretch of the imagination, and more middle-class bien pensants who aimed to help their less fortunate brethren while ensuring a very nice share of the pie for themselves, thank you very much. The glue that once held them together was mutual advantage coupled with a large dose of arrogant self-entitlement.

      Now, however, after all these years of unrelenting self-defeating austerity plus continued self-advancement for the privileged few, that glue is dissolving. The independence issue exposed it first, but now Labour’s hold on its remaining more-reactionary elements is also being threatened, in this case by their “Better Together” fellow Unionists.

      Given their blinkered manifesto stance, “Scottish” Labour’s slow-motion suicide is probably unstoppable now. (A pity, but better to just get it over with now, I suppose.) However, this still presents a dilemma for the indy movement as a whole.

      Leading from the front, Nicola has (rightly) promoted progressive values across the board, and not merely our evident economic self-interest in remaining within the EU, but how effective this will be in attracting the remnants of Labour’s crumbling support when they are also being seduced by far less noble causes, remains to be seen.

      It’s not just the remnants of Labour that are at stake either. There is an atavistic segment of pro-indy support as well. Deny it as they may, this is mostly to be found among the “Yes-Leavers”, and is the reason why the polls haven’t moved forward by now as much as they might otherwise have done. Whatever their other beliefs, can these people be convinced that their material self-interest is still best served by independence, despite the various temptations (as identified by Stu) being dangled in front of them now by the Tories?

    58. Big Jock says:

      It’s breathtaking arrogance to speak for other people like us on what we value. It’s because we value these things that we desire independence. We realised a long time ago that you can’t have social equality while tied to a right wing country.

      Duncan wants socialist Scots to wait for England to decide it agrees. They have had 100 years of toying with socialism but right wing wins 9 out of 10 times.

      Scotland can be different but it’s impossible under the union. Duncan needs to grow up and stop being so selfish. Perhaps he is reluctant to accept his home nation England is a lost cause.

      You don’t speak for me Duncan…ever!

    59. Gaelstorm says:

      Time to stop bothering with red tories and focus on the real ones.

    60. heedtracker says:

      “But Project Fear was obviously aimed at conservatives of all Parties. They are terrified of losing their money and security and, in England, being overrun by foreigners.”

      Cappella, if Labour DO win June 8, Scotland could become a tax haven for high income English tax dodgers.

      Holyrood’ tax PAYE powers don’t have to go up.

      Never going to happen but if England does actual decide to give JC a go…

    61. Artyhetty says:

      re;Glamaig [at] 9 [dot] pm

      Yep, noticed that, all in it together, no difference between Eng,Scotland, NI, or Wales, all one happy ‘stable and strong’ togetherness of up s**t creek without a paddleness, pooling n sharing, same coins. What was that Boris? A £ spent in Glasgow, that new, all in it together £ coin, worth nowt unless it’s lining the pockets of the rich in the south of Eng.

      DrJim@7.33

      Too right, Labour kept Scotland poor and begging, still do and it would be ten times worse if ever they were at the helm again. Red tories. They sent back over a £billion 2006(?) remember to London UK, Westminster, because they, ‘couldn’t think of anything to spend it on’ in Scotland. Utter gits for that alone.

      Labour and Lib dems doing deals with tory councils to keep SNP out, Argyle and Bute? I hope they rot in hell.

    62. ben madigan says:

      labour’s opposition to independence is rooted in its being the British Labour Party. It does what it says on the tin.

      Didn’t someone (Johann lamont?) once tell us in all truth that the scottish labour party was just a branch office?

      It’s worth remembering that all Unionist parties are “blind and deaf” to any alternatives to the Union as it stands.

      Only overwhelming support for SNP will break through that barrier and make them listen to us

    63. mogabee says:

      Oh dear, Dunkie Hotdogstall will be absolutely beelin’ at this. Sure he’ll be furiously penning a piece for labour hame as we speak!

      An American friend sums it up perfectly… ;D

      “Boy, that guy has a real poker up his ass about nothin’ in particular”.

    64. Poor quality treatment noted here about ‘training sessions’ without pay or travel expenses.
      However, this is while we are in Europe, so surely the advantage of being a member doesn’t benefit in these cases. Out of Europe via Brexit would certainly not be better. That’s a puzzle.

    65. Thepnr says:

      labour in Scotland first sent an MP to Wesminster in 1910, in fact that year they sent two MP’s. From then on their share of the vote and the number of MP’s elected steadily increased.

      By the time of the General Election in 1929 for the first time ever they had the majority, sending 36 from 71 MP’s in Scotland to Westminster.

      After WW2 they consistently had in excess of 45% of the Scottish vote peaking in 1966 at 49.8%. Their greatest achievements though in terms of MP’s was in the Tony Blair years 1997 and 2001 where 56 out of 2 MP’s in Scotland were from the Labour party.

      Even as recently as 2001 they managed to get 42% of the Scottish vote and sent 41 Mp’s to Westminster.

      I predict that after June 8th 2017 they will have NONE. It’s no mystery to me as to what could have caused this to go so badly wrong for them.

      They’re dead and buried as a party, lets focus on the Tory scum now.

    66. Thepnr says:

      56 out of 72 it should have read, drat.

    67. Ian Brotherhood says:

      It’s about time we started making arrangements for June 3rd Glasgow march.

      Curious to see what size the Friends of WOS contingent will be for this one…

      🙂

    68. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      If at first glance it seems somewhat depressing to contemplate some of the vile stuff we are up against, as this article highlights, it’s not all as bad as it seems.

      While some issues (eg. hanging, Brexit) are clearly wholly reactionary, others (eg. the monarchy) can at least in part be described as reflecting a deep need for stability and continuity. (Hence Mayhem’s minder’s non-accidental choice of slogan.)

      This seems to be a trick that at the moment we are missing. Mayhem is attempting to present her party as the most-attractive “continuity” option when in fact the very opposite is the case. An independent Scotland remaining in the EU is a far more realistic option for continuity, which is precisely why many former “no” voters have since changed their minds.

      Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that it’s a desire to retain the blessings of the social-democratic welfare state that we inherited from our forefathers, coupled with an understanding that we need to share those blessings more equitably all round, that lies at the very heart of most indy supporters. Yet are we carrying that message as successfully as we could to the faint-hearted “no’s”?

      I suggest that the actors on the political stage (ie. the SNP and Greens) need to make far more of this “continuity” argument than heretofore, and also relentlessly expose the Mayhem Gang’s complete fraud in that respect.

      We are the protectors, it’s the Tory-led Unionists who are the reckless wreckers.

    69. CameronB Brodie says:

      There is no such entity as Scottish Labour, there is only British Labour in Scoland.

      What sort f progressive political party would support the democratic deficit and denial of inaleable human rights enjoyed by Scotland? That’s right, Scotland’s very own enclave of sub-Tories, a.k.a. British Labour in Scotland.

    70. Capella says:

      @ heedtracker – Nicola is considering raising the top rate of tax. A Labour win in England might be the ideal time to do it.

      There’s no date on this news item – Lords axe Holyrood powers over Scottish renewables. But it looks current and outrageous.

      http://www.scottishenergynews.com/lords-axe-holyroods-power-over-scottish-renewables/

    71. heedtracker says:

      Capella says:

      I think the Lord’s reached up and hoiked away Green energy powers almost instantly they won 18 Sept 2014. Its because they have no power, we’re told.

      Jezza winning would be an extraordinary one but the English aint listening now. The Dear Leader is strong stable and there would probably be a coup, if Jezza did win.

    72. Thepnr says:

      @Capella

      I think that was in 2013, Newsnet Scotland had an article about it.

      http://newsnet.scot/archive/fury-after-unelected-peers-strip-power-from-scotland/

    73. meg merrilees says:

      Capella

      I did a search and came up with this.
      Sounds like it could be our article…

      http://newsnet.scot/archive/fury-after-unelected-peers-strip-power-from-scotland/

    74. Clootie says:

      People with values created the Labour Party. The label “Labour Party” is not the source of those values. The modern mini has absolutely nothing in common with the original. The name was kept in order to maintain sales though nostalgia.

      Labour simply pulled off the same trick. They became the Red Tories and dumped the values but kept the badge.

      Jimmy Reid is often quoted for the simple phrase “I didn’t leave the Labour Party, they left me!”

    75. Meg merrilees says:

      Snap! Thepnr

    76. Capella says:

      @ Thepnr -@ heedtracker – you’re right it was 2013 so old news. Still outrageous though.
      Illustrates how an unelected body of priveleged troughers can strip powers from Holyrood without any democratic process at all. Medieval.

    77. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood

      re AUOB I will be attending the meeting in Avante Garde 34/44 Kings St Glasgow this Sat 20th. I’ll post up on Sat/ Sun with any new information.

    78. crazycat says:

      @ Capella @ 10.08

      No, it’s not current – I remember it from the Coalition.
      Actual date 20/11/13.

      https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2013-2014/0133/en/14133en.pdf

      (Unless there’s been a repeat, but it would be odd if the Amendment had the same number.)

    79. crazycat says:

      Should have added – it’s on page 9 of the pdf.

      I’m not sure why it’s being tweeted now (except as an example of what they’re capable of), but as soon as I saw the tweet I knew it was familiar.

    80. Juan P says:

      Check this yoons twitter feed.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/Paulkenne_1909

      Ticking all the boxes. Sèems particulary fearful of foreigners.

    81. Capella says:

      @ crazycat @ meg merrilees – gosh you are all quick off the mark! Thanks for the correction. I have a vague memory of this but not the detail. It does seem totally out of order in a modern democracy.

    82. crazycat says:

      Ah, last to arrive at the party, again 🙂 !

      At least we all agree.

    83. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @RonnieA –

      Good stuff mister.

      Very much looking forward to this one – should be a belter!

      😉

    84. Thepnr says:

      I love it when we all search for the “truth” and help expand our knowledge. Doesn’t matter who’s first, it only matters that we provide the links and encourage others to read.

      Wings is the best resource for the truth that the Yes movement has and it’s thanks to its contributors as well as the main man.

      PS I think the Tories are losing ground both in Scotland and England. Will wait and see though, I won’t get carried away that’s for sure.

    85. Capella says:

      @ Thepnr – WoS has turned us all into political news analysts. It’s the first place I go to to find out what’s happening. The comments are always enlightening.
      It makes the MSM seem dull and static.

    86. heedtracker says:

      Capella says:
      16 May, 2017 at 10:25 pm
      @ Thepnr -@ heedtracker – you’re right it was 2013 so old news. Still outrageous though.
      Illustrates how an unelected body of privileged troughers can strip powers from Holyrood without any democratic process at all. Medieval.

      But why would the Lord’s go after Green energy powers in Scotland and Holyrood?

      Landed gentry slowly appreciating the vast and limitless energy revenue potential, on their chunks of Scotland?

      There’s probably no greater horror for our imperial masters than losing total control of their lands.

      It happened after WW2, when an actual socialist Labour UK gov came to them with an actual tax bill, death duties was the method of tax and look at how it freaks out the tories today. Crash Gordo bottled it totally but he was a red tory.

      Its why the National Trust was set up, gentry kept their properties and lands, plebs pay for the upkeep and get to visit.

    87. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ronnie A –

      Is that an open meeting or what?

    88. Robert Peffers says:

      @CameronB Brodie says: 16 May, 2017 at 10:04 pm:

      “There is no such entity as Scottish Labour, there is only British Labour in Scoland.
      What sort f progressive political party would support the democratic deficit and denial of inaleable human rights enjoyed by Scotland?”

      Well said CameronB but if you have not grasped the main implication of that fact it is this. London Labour in Scotland would not be able to be viable if they were separate from their London masters. They do not have a large enough membership and the unions are UK wide so their contributions go to Westminster as does the Co-op sponsored Labour MPs.

      London Labour in Scotland are terrified their financial support will see the elected members having to stump up to keep the likes of Kezia in the style to which she has become accustomed.

      Mayhap an SNP drive to have union members withdraw their political levy from Labour would see them off for good.

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 16 May, 2017 at 10:08 pm:

      @ ” … There’s no date on this news item – Lords axe Holyrood powers over Scottish renewables. But it looks current and outrageous.
      http://www.scottishenergynews.com/lords-axe-holyroods-power-over-scottish-renewables

      There’s a panel top right that quotes dates as May & April 2017, Capella.

    90. Phronesis says:

      Whose values should Scotland vote for-is it really that complicated?
      Which political movement is trying to strengthen Scotland’s resilience and which political movement is doing everything to limit Scotland’s ability to be a resilient country. There are many policy suggestions in the common resilience framework that could be adapted to any environment (urban or rural) in Scotland- Glasgow is one of the 100 global resilient cities. For example,

      ‘Provision of essential resources required to meet a person’s basic physiological needs. Supports Livelihoods and Employment: Livelihood opportunities & support that enable people to secure their basic needs. Opportunities might include jobs, skills training, or responsible grants & loans. Ensures Public Health Services: Integrated health facilities & services, & responsive emergency services. Includes physical & mental health, health monitoring & awareness of healthy living & sanitation…

      Promotes Cohesive and Engaged Communities: Community engagement, social networks & integration. These reinforce collective ability to improve the community & require processes that encourage civic engagement in planning & decision-making… Important economic factors include contingency planning, sound management of city finances, the ability to attract business investment, a diverse economic profile & wider linkages…

      Enhances and Provides Protective Natural & Man-Made Assets: Environmental stewardship, appropriate infrastructure, effective land use planning & enforcing regulations. Conservation of environmental assets preserves the natural protection afforded to cities by ecosystems… Diverse & affordable multi- modal transport networks & systems, ICT & contingency planning. Transport includes the network (roads, rail, signs, signals etc.), public transport options & logistics (ports, airports, freight lines etc.)’

      http://www.100resilientcities.org/resilience#/-_/

      A political movement that is incapable of acknowledging Scotland the country and wants to spend money on weapons of mass destruction, destroy the interwoven elements of the welfare state, fails to reform corrupt financial institutions, increases the inequality gap and child poverty rates, upholds social and economic segregation, mismanages our vast natural resources, systematically dismantles our manufacturing infrastructure (the list could go on of UKOK destructive policies that have often disproportionately and adversely affected Scotland) stands for division and vulnerability and should not get anyone’s vote.

    91. Thepnr says:

      Labour in Scotland are just the starter. The Tories will be main course and Independence the desert. Enjoy your dinner.

    92. Capella says:

      |@ Robert Peffers – yes but the news item itself is from 2013, which several eagle eyed commenteers have pointed out above!

      @ heedtracker – George Monbiot has an article on how the Tories have scuppered community owned energy projects.

      As ever, the landed gentry rake it in:
      The rich have been encouraged through amazingly generous incentives to install biomass boilers so inefficient that they don’t meet the official definition of renewable energy, under a scheme which encourages as much waste as possible. The bigger the boiler and the more fuel you burn, the more money you are given. So rich people now run their oversized boilers at full steam, and leave the windows open to cool the house. The returns are astonishing: 20, 30, sometimes 40%.

      http://www.monbiot.com/2015/01/23/a-state-licence-to-rob-the-public/

    93. heedtracker says:

      @ heedtracker – George Monbiot has an article on how the Tories have scuppered community owned energy projects.

      Its just staggering. How the UK rich and powerful have been able to steal everything of any intrinsic value, that belong to everyone, is also just spectacular.

      But its also all been a fascinating display in how to convince the vast majority to vote tory to do it, as in look at today’s English public rage at JC’s planned renationalisation of English water, or the way the Royal Mail was looted, with nary a peep from us plebs.

      And its all just another massive display of why we have a multi billion quid “state” broadcaster, everywhere. Or people really do like it this Thatcherite way.

    94. Iain More says:

      I think that most of Labours MPs would disagree with him since according to them socialists are unelectable, well at least in most of Ingerland they are. Whereas English Nationalist can get away with being bigots and racists and abusive to bairns.

    95. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      I like George Monbiot’s writing, but don’t share his enthusiasm for nuclear power.

      The scheme described in the paragraph you quoted (the Renewable Heat Incentive) is of course the GB equivalent of the one which brought down Arlene Foster and her government earlier this year.

    96. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 23:30,
      crazycat @ 23:40,

      What? There’s a monstrous equivalent of that NI extravagance operating in GB as well…? Seriously?

      If so, how come I’ve never heard of this before? How come that heads haven’t rolled?

      I know, I know…. =sigh=

    97. Capella says:

      I don’t agree with nuclear energy either but some environmentalists advocate it, through despair probably.

      Monbiot’s good at ferreting out the massive amounts of public money shovelled into the bank accounts of already wealthy troughers. Sometimes their lordships slip wee amendments into bills which just happen to benefit themselves at our expense. I think if the average voter was aware of the vast wealth these thieving barons siphon off they might well get the pitchforks out.
      Which is why the MSM won’t tell them.

    98. Chick McGregor says:

      I don’t support the Tories because of what they are.

      I don’t support Labour because of what they are not.

    99. Capella says:

      Lord Dacre (Daily Mail) criticised the green levy but still rakes in plenty from his renewable energy scheme in his estate in Ullapool. Not that his newspaper will tell his readers about that. Too busy raging about BREXIT and immigrants.

      https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2016/aug/04/paul-dacre-energy-daily-mail-hydro-power-plant

    100. ben madigan says:

      @Thepnr who said “PS I think the Tories are losing ground both in Scotland and England”

      tend to agree – whether they lose enough ground remains to be seen.

      might suit the tories. They’d off-load the brexit hot potato on to poor old JC

    101. crazycat says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland

      There is an RHI here – I investigated it when I was replacing my wood-burning stove, but it only applies to boilers, not stoves, and they were not what I intended to get.

      I thought that there was an upper limit, though, unlike in NI, and also unlike what Monbiot describes. The limit was based on the number of inhabitants, house size, expected consumption – all of which seems reasonable. Maybe it’s been changed; I was looking several months after the Monbiot article was published.

    102. Thepnr says:

      @Chick McGregor

      Post on Off Topic you might like.

    103. crazycat says:

      @ RJS

      Alternatively, the limit might apply to domestic installations but not commercial ones.

    104. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 23:57,

      We should also be grateful to Andy Wightman for adressing the unsatisfactory situation of estate landowning in Scotland.

      His efforts to throw a spotlight on that must surely be having an effect, since some big landowning interest appears to be trying to use the old time-honoured lordly way of dealing with troublesome upstarts – bludgeon them with the law.

      He has a public crowdfunding appeal ongoing to defend himself against that, surely deserving of whatever anyone can spare…

    105. Meg merrilees says:

      Here’s an interesting little;e clip of the Q&A session after tRuthless’ Orwellian speech.

      This is her commenting on Army veterans using foodbanks…

      https://twitter.com/ptr_yeung/status/864189318394511360

      Astonishingly, she says ‘As a veteran myself…’

      Second point:

      My sister phoned tonight to announce that she was so excited about the Labour Party’s new manifesto that she would most probably vote Labour now, like back in the old days…

      She thought it was a good idea to nationalise the water supply until I mentioned Scottish Water; and then reminded her about tuition fees – already scrapped here, prescription charges -already scrapped here, hospital parking – free here, bedroom tax – mitigated here.
      In fact she quickly realised that a lot of the ‘new’ Labour ideas are already in place here because of the SNP.

      I did remind her that in fact if she did vote for Scottish Labour she could be putting her own tax up because they want to put a penny on income tax for everyone.

      Then I mentioned Kezia – now, my sister really isn’t interested in politics AT ALL and doesn’t know who’s who or what’s what – but even she said,
      “Ah!, yes, Kezia, I’d forgotten about her! Oh well, I guess I’ll be voting SNP after all”

      I wonder how many other ‘oldies’ in Scotland will vote Labour on the back of nostalgic memories of the ‘good old days’ and could it eat into the tory vote?

    106. Capella says:

      @ RJS – Andy Wightman certainly does frighten the right people and, as you say, they are trying to ruin him financially. If bankrupt he can not be an MSP.
      I’ve chipped to the crowdfunder and will do so again if necessary.

      @ meg merrilees – I wonder too whether Labour might revive enough to split the Unionist vote. The tactical voting plan might evaporate.

    107. Gregor says:

      On the subject of values, I recently challenged the BBC through the BBC complaints system (before BBC corruptly sanctioned me and blocked my ability to lodge complaints for apparently sending too many complaints since the first Scottish Independence referendum) to provide any examples of core ‘UK values’, given that the BBC Charter clearly states that the BBC is supposed to represent the UK and British values are a current mainstream topical issue. Interestingly, the BBC steadfast refused to provide any examples and asserted that UK values are not part of the BBC remit. Core values underpin civilised democratic society. How on earth can the BBC function as a (so called) national service provider, if it refuses to recognise UK values and their fundamental importance.

    108. Still Positive says:

      Just watched a couple of videos on FB re the NHS in England which, of course, affects our budget.

      Really scary that Jeremy Hunt seems to be in favour of Kaiser Permanente which is a truly invidious US company.

    109. boris says:

      I am compiling an article on Miles Briggs, the Tory candidate for Edinburgh South West. I’m nearly there but need to get confirmation of his birthplace Born 1983 but where? I am thinking possibly Lisburn, Northern Ireland or Carlisle. Can Anyone give me a pointer??

    110. winifred mccartney says:

      Its win win for the tories – if they get big majority they can do what they like and they will. It will not be pretty especially for Scotland but if labour win they will get the poison chalice and the blame for the devastation after we leave Europe and then the tories will be in again for the next 20 years. As I say win win for the morphed ukip now called the Conservative party. It would almost be better for the tories do win in England and be made to take the blame for all that comes along and maybe by then Labour could be in a better place cause they could not be in a worse one.

    111. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Is it just me, or, does anyone else think, the more Dippity Dug and TRuthless try to sell the unsellable Unionist policies of their parties: thefastertheyspeak-withfewerandsorter-pausesforbreath-asthewordscome-tumblingoutinatorrent.

      This, in my exerience is a sure sign, they are lying, they know they are lying, but simply carry on regardless.

      Both of them are shitting themselves on a daily basis.

    112. Juteman says:

      The more exposure Der Ruther gets, the better. I get the feeling that Scots are starting to see through her bluster.
      Her anger is just below the surface, and she can’t handle pressure.

    113. Robert Louis says:

      Just a reminder, as we are in the midst of lots of anti referendum hubris by both the Blue and red Tories right now.

      Just last year in the Scottish Parliament elections, both Labour and the Tories stood on platforms opposing another indy referendum. The SNP stood on a platform of holding one, if it became necessary, due to being taken out of the EU against our wishes.

      This was THE major point of discussion across the media in the run up to the Scots parliament election. It was debated endlessly.

      Labour and the Tories lost the election. The SNP won, and formed the Scottish Government. THAT is democracy.

      Now, we see both red and blue tories trying to usurp that free and fair democratic decision made by the people of Scotland, by nefarious means.

      Their is a pro independence majority in the Scots Parliament, and the unionists lost. That is democracy.

      The Scots Parliament voted on and decided to go ahead with another referendum. THAT is democracy.

      The unionists lost the election AND the parliamentary vote, but now want to re-write the rulebook to suit themselves.

      Let’s never forget those cold hard facts, among all the oncoming anti referendum nonsense as part of the UK election.

      Meanwhile, down in Englandshire, the land of mad queen Theresa, I can only assume the Tory party strategists are having kittens right now. It would seem their ‘strategy’ (if you could call it that) is faltering. I’d laugh my socks off if the Tories were returned with an even smaller majority (or even lost) than they have now.

    114. Juteman says:

      As I’ve said before, it could be that the election was called to enable Labour to win.
      The establishment knows that a Yes vote would be harder to win with a Labour government in Westminster.

    115. Smallaxe says:

      Nana, Good Morning, the sun is shining.Thank you for Your Links.
      Kettle’s on. Peace Always.
      🙂

    116. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Ta much Nana. Just in time for brekkie. 🙂

    117. heedtracker says:

      Juteman says:

      The establishment knows that a Yes vote would be harder to win with a Labour government in Westminster.”

      BBC r4 vote tory Today show, John Humphries kicks off their vote tory BBC day with, “tories will enjoy reading today’s newspapers, tory ones at least…”

    118. Breeks says:

      Ruth Davidson speaks as a “veteran” of the reserved armed forces???

      She was in the TA.

      That’s like introducing yourself as Allan Quartermain, big game hunter, just because you’ve sat on the back of a buffalo.

    119. Hamish100 says:

      Dugdale just can’t say on GMS that she wants a Scottish nationalised railway. It has to be British. She doesn’t get it.

      Dugdale getting free ride.

    120. Nana says:

      Meant to say re the skwawkbox article above, posted it so you could all see the man holding the fake news sign behind Kuenesberg.

      But ain’t it funny how labour and their pals were cheering on the bbc bias during our referendum.

      Suck it up labour, you helped create it.

    121. The Isolator says:

      Just listened to the completely unhinged Dug on GMS.Are “Scottish Labour” contesting this election and if not wtf are they doing launching a manifesto?

      Ridiculous state of affairs,not even close to democracy at large.

    122. ScotsRenewables says:

      Re. Nana’s link
      Judge overturns block on Scottish wind farms

      In 2014 the RSPB succeeded in stopping 4 big offshore wind projects in firths of Forth and Tay with their usual vague and unproven assertions about bird mincing.

      The Court of Session in Edinburgh yesterday handed down a ruling in support of the Scottish government, which awarded planning permission for the developments in October 2014 and had appealed against the decision in favour of the RSPB. Their ruling basicly said the original judge was bang out of order and had seriously exceeded his remit.

      No doubt the old fart was a fully signed up member of this dangerously over-influential superannuated twitchers fan club.

      Sad that these projects have been delayed for so long. Hopefully construction will commence shortly.

    123. call me dave says:

      Gary on radio shortbread decides to give deluded Dugdale much more latitude than he offered Sturgeon on Monday.

      I gave up counting the amount of ‘no referendum’ mentions from Dugdale.

      However Gary listed five main Corbyn pledges and it turns out the SNP have already, even with limited power, done it in Scotland.

      “So why vote labour”? asks Gary.

      “No referendum” says she… 🙂

      Morning all!

    124. McBoxheid says:

      I did the political quiz on Isidewithdotcom a few weeks ago. It was interesting in that if I did the vanilla version, choosing one of the given answers except something else, I was 87% SNP, but when I redid it choosing to use the something else and writing my own beliefs into the box that popped up, I was only 53% SNP. It seems that what I wrote was ignored in some way as the result came back instantly.

      I think that most people answer these type of surveys by choosing the option that is closest to their beliefs to save them thinking what to write. With political polls it is nearly the same. When you only have choices that you don’t agree with completely, you tend to choose the one that suits you best. Otherwise you choose the don’t know option.

      Most political questionaires, don’t express everyones views and are to simplistic or leading. A bit like the American choice for president, people chose what they thought would do the least damage, as neither were good for their country as they saw it, or they didn’t vote at all.

      I think that is why polls are becoming increasingly unreliable, as they are written by people with an agenda and not from a neutral POV.

      It’s like asking:

      Do you like chocolate?

      A Yes
      B No
      C Something else
      D Don’t know

      The option offered for those that want C will be totally unsatisfactory as a means of looking at what they really like. Also, a fair few will tick D anyway because it is a statistical given in multiple choice type questions.

    125. call me dave says:

      Jings! Two Lib/Dems on shortbread now, Mather and Green, waffling cheerily about their manifesto and chances in Scotland.
      They have vast quantities of money to burn apparently …investment galore in Scotland.

      “It’s about the kind of society we want to live in” they chirp

      I think they stole that one from Sturgeon. 🙂

    126. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood 10.59 Yes AUOB meeting on Sat at Avante Garde is open to anyone its on AUOBs page.

    127. Ken500 says:

      Just change the electoral system to FPTP. Get rid of all the Tory/Unionists. No more nonsense. Labour are funded by Unionists. The SNP is the only Party funded by it’s members. So can do the right thing.

      Westminster is spending £Billions in HS2, Hinkley by the sea, Heathrow and Trident. All a total waste of money. There are more credible alternatives. Two tidal barrages (one at the Humber) would produce more electricity and cost half as much.

      HS2 will cost £Billions. There will be a two tier rail system to Manchester.10mins quicker and more expensive which will make journeys throughout Britain take longer. Changing trains. Not a through journey. Not enough passengers.

      The rail times for equivalent journeys in the North and Scotland take longer. Ie from London to Birmingham. Takes 2hrs? From central belt to Aberdeen 2.30 hours. That needs improving. There is work going on in Scotland on the railways. To reduce journey times. 30 mins between Glasgow/Edinburgh. Other works. The rail service is quite good but it could be improved. With a faster service it could compete with air flights and is a more frequent service. It can be easier, and less hassle, to get on an inter City train

      Estates/farms are run like businesses. If they make money they pay tax. Corporation tax etc. Many if them do not make money. Many estates have land but no money. They are mortgaged to the banks. That is how the owners get money remortgaging, Many woukd like to sell land off to pay off their debts. Land is exempt from tax to keep farms together. Larger farms produce more.

      If Scotland was Independent. It would have a central bank. The land is mortgaged to the banks. The bamks would be under the control of the Scottish Gov. The landowners would be repaying interest in the mortgage. That is an indirect land tax. To tax the land would put up the price of land. Making housebuilding, food etc more expensive. Land costs £5000 an acre. With planning permission it is worth 20 times as much. It is what is on the land that is of value. A house, a farm or a building. That is already being taxed. Stamp duty. Council tax. Corporation tax.

      Why are pensioners outwith Edinburgh not allowed to use their off peak (bus) travel passes on the Trams. They paid for it. Prices on the Trams should be higher £10 return. Edinburgh, the wealthiest City in Scotland has subsided transport.

      Brexit is starting to bite. Independence in the EU before Scotland is dragged out against it’s will. The UK Union costs Scotland £20Billion a year, The EU costs nothing and brings £Billions of benefits and investment. The EU is investing £Billions in renewables, CCS, decommissions etc in Scotland.

    128. McBoxheid says:

      ScotsRenewables says:
      17 May, 2017 at 8:32 am

      Re. Nana’s link
      Judge overturns block on Scottish wind farms

      No doubt the old fart was a fully signed up member of this dangerously over-influential superannuated twitchers fan club.
      _______________________________

      You have shown your ignorange here ScotsRenewables. I agree that renewable energy is the way forward, but care needs to be taken as where it should be placed. The RSPB are not only into protecting birds, they look at it wholistically and try to protect the environment. A protected enviroment supports many forms of life, including plants, mammals and birds.

      In particular they look at things like endangered habitats that are beneficial to rare plants and animals such as at sites like the Forsinard Flows. They also look carefully at the enviromental impact of projects such as the Forth wind farms and they disagreed with the decision because of the impact on migration routes.

      Wind farms kill birds. On a migration route, it can have a catastrophic effect on marginal species using those routes.
      Where possible, such sites can and should be avoided. If species are lost, they are lost forever. That has an impact on many other species here and abroad which may suffer as a result.

      BTW, not all bird watchers are twitchers, neither are they all old farts. Many are young people, many don’t twitch at all.

    129. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Breeks

      Thank fek Ruthie babe never wore ah Davy Crocket hat or she would be regaling us on her defence of The Alamo .

    130. Arabs for Independence says:

      Boris @ 05.56

      Miles Edward F Briggs from Lancashire 1983

    131. Dr Jim says:

      Every politician employs a method for getting their message across to the public
      In the case of Kezia Dugdale it’s the Mosquito Method which is the high pitched seemingly unswattable rapid buzzing around your ear accompanied by the fear from the recipient of this technique that she’s going to get in your eyes

      Ruth Davidson employs the Bad Parent technique of shouting, thumping something, waving her finger and threatening go to your room retribution if you dare defy her

      These are not good techniques for anybody in any line of work to use because people don’t like it, and in the case of politicians that’s why they don’t vote for you

      Ya pair of Arseholes

      And the crap policies of course, and Unionism, and well everything really

    132. Arabs for Independence says:

      Boris @ 05.56

      Miles Edward F Briggs from Lancashire 1983

      Preston and South Ribble District

    133. call me dave says:

      Not in favour of blood sports so have turned away from the shortbread Dugdale Q/A. Sqeamish 🙂

    134. sassenach says:

      Good God, Kezia is still spouting “£15bn deficit” on GMS just now!!
      Will she never learn?

    135. Dr Jim says:

      I don’t claim to be knowledgeable on birds but one would think that if a bird can spot a tiny scrap of food from hundreds of feet in the air and swoop down avoiding trees telephone wires and even traffic to collect that tasty morsel

      It’s quite likely it’s not going to miss a massive windmill in the sky and bump into it unless there’s something wrong with that bird
      I’m told birds are very adaptable (pigeons)(budgies)(parrots)(bloody seagulls)

      I’m just guessing mind

    136. ScottishPsyche says:

      Dugdale’s tone is so patronising. It is as if she is speaking to a P1 class.

      How does she know what Scotland wants?

    137. Dan Huil says:

      Britnats’ voices same to be increasing in shrillness and painful pitch. By June 8th only dogs will be listening.

    138. Giving Goose says:

      Call me dave @ 850

      What “Mather” was on?

      Cheers

    139. Dr Jim says:

      Kezia spouting Labourdygook numbers about deficits adding in the square root of a Bunny Rabbit and Bobs yer auntie

      (Fact)

    140. T.roz says:

      Ken500

      How do you work out that a land tax would increase the value of land?

    141. Legerwood says:

      Breeks @ 8.17

      I don’t know the specifics of Ms Davidson’s service with the TA but I do know that units of the TA did serve in Iraq and probably Afghanistan.

      A young girl, early 20s, who worked in my department was in the TA. When the Iraq war started her unit was put on standby to go to Iraq and then deployed to Kuwait. She went with them and, as a driver, and drove trucks into Iraq with supplies for the forces. Not an easy job and not without its dangers – roadside bombs etc. She served in Iraq/Kuwait for at least 6 months.

      The TA also supplied medical support at various times.

      As I said, I don’t know what Ms Davidson did in the TA but the TA has seen service in recent war zones and I am sure anyone in the TA who served in those wars does have the right to be called a veteran. Whether that applies to Ms Davidson remains to be seen but don’t denigrate the TA because you want to get at her.

    142. Bob p says:

      Liebor in England are finished. England is becoming a right wing fascist country,who love their dear leader.

    143. Fred says:

      “I am a weekend sodger the world is feart fae me!
      I fought a hundred battles but aye been hame fur ma tea!”

    144. call me dave says:

      @giving goose
      Hi always seem to miss the first names so I’m not certain maybe the woman was called Siobhan Mathers but would not go to the bookies on it. Apologies if wrong.

      PS:

      Been on the road so missed most of Deputy Dugdale’s stint, I expect that the day did not go well for her on shortbread Q/A

      Jeremy!… Jeremy!… Jeremy!…oh wait wrong film.

      Google ‘Rollerball’.

      Sunny in Fife

    145. McBoxheid says:

      Dr Jim says:
      17 May, 2017 at 9:27 am

      I don’t claim to be knowledgeable on birds but one would think that if a bird can spot a tiny scrap of food from hundreds of feet in the air and swoop down avoiding trees telephone wires and even traffic to collect that tasty morsel

      It’s quite likely it’s not going to miss a massive windmill in the sky and bump into it unless there’s something wrong with that bird
      I’m told birds are very adaptable (pigeons)(budgies)(parrots)(bloody seagulls)

      I’m just guessing mind

      ______________________________
      Dr Jim,
      migratorary birds follow the paths their parent use or follow magnetic lines, wind patterns, etc an inbuilt ability to instinctively find the route of migration. Passerines migrate at night, so they arrive at an obstacle and look to avoid it or might not see it until far to late. If a wind farm is strung right across their route, it is very difficult to find a way around it. They might end up so off course that they get lost and fail to complete the usual route and end up somewhere unsuitable.

      The turbulence coming off a massive wind turbines is also damaging to most birds, as by nature they are hollow boned to be light enough to fly. A larger bird then breaks a wing, a smaller one may be sucked it, both fatal.

      I’m not sure if birds will be able to learn where these windfarms are, but I am hopeful that some may learn from a near miss and pass it on by changing their route. This won’t include juveniles that fly separately, using instinct.

      Birds of prey migrate during the day, as do other large birds, because they use thermals created by the sun’s energy to gain height. Unfortunately, over water there are no thermals, so the choose the shortest route to cross bodies of water. They gain enough altitude to make the crossing, but no more than necessary as it costs energy, (their fat reserves) to do so. As the Firth of Forth is quite wide in places, they have to decide where to cross.

      If the wind turbines are in the wrong place for the various migrant birds, then many will be killed, either by the blades or by the turbulence. Over time, it may be possible for some of them to learn to avoid them, but in the the short term, many will be killed. The Bass Rock has the world’d largest colony of Northern Gannet. These and any Auk populations need to feed daily and they follow the fish or sand eels they eat. They turbines may well cause a problem with this. Any parent being killed by a turbine means that the brood will fail as the chicks will be predated when the single parent goes fishing, or they will starve as one parent cannot catch enough to feed their offspring and themselves.

      It certainly isn’t a black a white issue, but I think care has to be taken to protect our natural environment and there are other more suitable sites for wind turbines/wave turbines than these from an environmental POV.

    146. schrodingers cat says:

      i dont doubt ruths service record, however, what i do take umbrage with is politicians, soldiers and the general public trying to take credit or justify their beliefs on the back of other peoples endevours

      when i was a soldier, we called this type of hyperbole, “licking the sweat off dead mens balls”

    147. Giving Goose says:

      Call me dave.

      Thanks for that.

      Siobhan Mathers is just another wanna be professional politician.

      Actually her parents are from the Irish Republic and I wish someone would ask her why Independence is good for Ireland but not for Scotland. Do her Irish relatives want to give up their hard won independence for London rule?

      I also wonder whether she still has her Irish passport.

      I’m sure there is a whiff of hypocrisy around the fact that Siobhan has dual nationality. Handy when Brexit happens, don’t you think? Or will she be giving up her European citizenship with the rest of Scotland? I think we should be told.

    148. crazycat says:

      @ McBoxheid at 9.09

      I agree with you absolutely, but as a life member of the “dangerously over-influential superannuated twitchers fan club”, I did find ScotsRenewables’ turn of phrase extremely funny!

    149. boris says:

      Arabs for Independence 0915

      Thank you for the heads up on Briggs.

    150. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      @Breeks at 8:17am and @ Legerwood @ 9:48am.

      Reservists made up1/3 of UK deployed armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. Regulars were cut by defence review after defence review and the TA bulked them out. Especially in the Corps like the RAMC, QARANC, RE, RLC etc. The TA Field Hospitals basically took turns at rotating into Iraq mid 2000s.

      Remember that this was pre-Chilcott.

      So yes there are ‘Veterans’ among the TA (some are friends of mine).

      Like their contemporaries in the Regular Army some members of the TA were injured physically and mentally by their experiences and still suffer hardship as a result.

      I can’t speak for tRuthless as I don’t know her service history but the Unionist military community would disown her if she is not a veteran as she has claimed and I suspect 32 Signals Rgt would strip hoof her Honorary Colonelship.

      Maybe Veterans for Independence could pick up this and run with it?

      Would make a good WoS expose Rev.!!

    151. Dr Jim says:

      Again on the bird thing I just read a whole lot of maybes and mights, I’m not having a go here but has there been actual evidence, and if there has one would have thought if indisputable the judgement would have gone the other way so whatever objections there are must be disputable or must be thought to be so little as to make no appreciable difference to the affect on wildlife because as we know the Scottish government are pretty keen on these issues and wouldn’t normally go against scientific evidence

    152. Liz g says:

      McBoxheid @ 10.26
      Wow thanks for all that information.
      Just goes to show how a lack of the right knowledge can leads to taking up a position that you wouldn’t normally do.
      Normally I would have agreed with Dr Jim about the birds probably being able to avoid the turbine’s?.
      But now I can see what you are saying and it looks like we have to be very careful where we allow these wind farms to be sited.
      I had always just assumed that the threat to the birds was the excuses that the NIMBYS invented.
      Ye learn something new everyday…..

    153. Phil Robertson says:

      Once again rather than deal with something that matters to everyday life such as education or health services, you meander off into an esoteric discussion about nationalism and socialism. And to compound matters you use the sort of bogus logic that Enoch Powell was so fond of.

      You take the views of unionist voters to characterise socialist voters. On what evidence do you think that the unionist corpus sees itself as socialist? That is the basic flaw in the your logic.

      Further your numeracy is as wonky as ever. On the first one you mention, the gap in the percentages between the two groups in support of hanging is 30%. The “62-point gap” is figment of your arithmetic imagination – you are effectively adding in the gap twice.

    154. Breeks says:

      Jockanese Wind Talker says:
      17 May, 2017 at 11:07 am
      @Breeks at 8:17am and @ Legerwood @ 9:48am.

      “Reservists made up1/3 of UK deployed armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. Regulars were cut by defence review after defence review and the TA bulked them out. Especially in the Corps like the RAMC, QARANC, RE, RLC etc. The TA Field Hospitals basically took turns at rotating into Iraq mid 2000s.”

      I’m not a veteran JWT, but I was in the TA myself, as a Para. I signed up to see if it might suit me as a career choice. I gave it a decent go, but decided it didn’t. During that time, I rubbed shoulders with a handful of genuine Falklands veterans who were regular NCO’s at Depot, or directly attached to TA units. There were also some guys went S type, where TA squaddies sign on for a year as regulars, and if they can cut it, stay on as regulars. So I do completely understand where you’re coming from with regards to blurring the line between regular and TA service, and the respect that sometimes goes with it, but very often doesn’t.

      (I also recall how jealous 1 Para were about being stuck in NI for the duration, and not getting bragging rights to call themselves Falklands vets like 2 and 3 Para. Bragging rights and battle honours were big issues in the intense inter-battalion rivalries).

      I also did my jump training at Brize Norton beside regular RAF flight crews, TA and Regular SAS troopers and Royal Marines, some of whom I am sure we’re regular veterans too. Sounds impressive to leave it hanging as a statement, but the truth is I simply spent a fortnight on an RAF airbase training to jump out an aircraft. Not that the SAS guys would tell you of course. If somebody tells you he’s ex SAS, there’s an extremely high probability he isn’t. The Troopers I met wouldn’t tell you they were SAS, even marching along with a beige beret on their head.

      When I hold up my all too brief “military career” beside the lives of these guys, despite earning my beret and wings, I still wouldn’t be at all comfortable even calling myself a full-on soldier, never mind even daring to call myself a “veteran”. I was in the TA for a bit, and that’s the whole story, cover to cover.

      Don’t misunderstand, if circumstances had required it, (and in the Gulf wars for many TA soldiers circumstances did), if I’d been called upon to go and fight, I would have gone and done my bit without complaint on grievance. But only then, after I had actually seen active service first hand, might I just begin to think of myself as a veteran. And it wouldn’t be a general purpose “utility” veteran, it would be a very prosaic veteran of a particular campaign or action. And even then, I still wouldn’t be promoting or advancing myself as a veteran. It would just be what others might be calling me.

      I suppose being called a veteran is just like a medal. It’s not the ribbon or piece of base metal that matters, it’s what you actually did to lay claim to it.

      Ruth Davidson was a TA signaller for 3 years and came out with a sore back and a misguided belief she’s a veteran, which she now wants to exploit for political capital. I suspect genuine veterans, and friends and family of genuine veterans will be receiving that particular message loud and clear.

    155. Jack Murphy says:

      Nana said at 7:46am:
      “…….https://grumpyscottishman.wordpress.com/2017/05/15/dundee-courier-dont-buy-this-rag/……..”

      I completely agree–don’t buy this Tory Ruth Davidson Courier Rag.

      A couple of months ago my Gran who lives near Dundee was stopped in a Dundee street by a Courier reporter,and asked her opinion on something the Dundee SNP Council was proposing to debate the following week.

      Gran knew absolutely NOTHING about the proposal,and the Courier reporter then proceeded to explain in anti-SNP narrative what the Council was proposing,ending—–“What do you have to say on the Council’s proposals”?

      Gran told the Courier reporter to take a hike and walked away.

      If you want to keep up to date on Births,Marriages and Deaths—-the Courier is the paper to buy. Otherwise just move on and save yourself a wee fortune…..

      PS. It’s from the same Stable as the Press & Journal. 🙁

    156. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Agreed @Breeks says at 12:30hrs.

      You’re Aberdeen I think? Were you, (for your brief spell with the Airborne) with A Platoon 15 Coy 4 Para? I knew a few guys who were.

      Davidson’s false ‘veteran’ claims need to be publicised for a climb down and apology.

      This is a vote loser for the Tories especially among the older WWII generation.

    157. Song 42 says:

      @Nana.
      Thanks so much for the links 🙂 – very much appreciated.

    158. Douglas says:

      Thanks Stu,
      It shows a big mountain to climb.

      Although it is nice to know that YES voters are progressive, doesn’t it also show how big the task of changing from NO to YES is for many of the Unionists? It is so embedded in their world view.

      I think we have convinced the Progressives, how do we convince the Reactionaries?
      The pool of Progressive NO voters seems to be almost empty now.

      We mustn’t compromise on the values. It means that we need to chip away at their reactionary values. Unless we work to change their views on these issues , we will simply reinforce the dog whistle of the Unionists (‘see those YES supporters, if they win there’s no chance we’ll get back to hanging’ etc.)..

      Maybe there are enough progressives to convert nice and get us over the line but we do need to work on convincing NO votes that there is a better way on all of these issues.



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