Tidying up
Right, as promised, one last piece of admin. (This post will be removed in due time.)
We left yesterday’s piece and the associated poll up for two full days to make sure the people who don’t read Wings at weekends saw it and had the chance to vote in it too. But in truth it was pretty obvious how the vote would go from about 20 minutes in.
Like, that’s not even a little bit close.
So the remainder of the Wings Fighting Fund will be used to commission occasional opinion polls until it runs out or until (ha) a second indyref becomes a reality, whichever happens first. However, almost everyone who gave a reason for voting “Oppose” (and quite a few who voted “Support”) said they did so because they wanted me to keep the money for myself.
That wasn’t offered as an option in the poll, because I’m not the SNP or Kezia Dugdale – that money was donated and meant to be used to in some way further the cause of independence, not buy me Lamborghinis (at the time of writing my 17-year-old Mini is still doing stellar service) or country cottages.
However, lots of people in the comments also expressed a desire for a final fundraiser to mark the closure of Wings Over Scotland as a politics blog, as a sort of redundancy package. It IS traditional to give a retiring employee a carriage clock or a gold watch or some such, and as it happens there’s a thing I really want but haven’t bought because the price is so absurdly extravagant, so if readers would like to get it as a farewell gift gesture that’d be very lovely.
It’s this hilariously high-tech jacket. It’s got graphene and electric heaters and stealth pockets and all sorts of nonsense, so it’d be ideal for staying toasty while out feeding the swans and squirrels in the fast-approaching winter.
(The three families of swan babies are nearly all fully-grown now and they’re always hungry, while the patter of tiny squirrel paws is imminent if this pic from the park last week is anything to go by.)
Any excess cash raised will go, as always, on crisps, Sherbet Dip-Dabs, fruity gins, and badger food for these goons.
And of course on the foxes (currently six).
And this magical vanishing dick, who bangs on the glass with his beak at teatime if there are no suet pellets on the ledge, or knocks stuff over if the window’s open.
And lastly and absolutely leastly, these complete arses.
Click the pic below, or the poll one at the top of the page, to go to the fundraiser if you want to kick in a few quid for the going-away present. Don’t worry if you don’t – people usually donate in expectation of a good or service, not for one they’ve already had or just to buy somebody some ludicrous parkwear. I have other coats.
And that’s about it. It’s been quite a ride, gang. Hopefully we’ll meet again one day, in the future of a better land where the Wicked Witch is no more and there might actually be a chance at independence. Until then, eh?
RoS @ 2.33
Alastair Jack refuses to say if Scotland is a nation – FFS
even the BBC considers we are a Nation: there are ‘Nations’ i.e. Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland and Regions i.e. South East, North, North West etc. within the BBC.
Why do we have Scots Law, The Church of Scotland and Scottish Football team and a separate Education system.
We don’t have Manchester law, Cornish education, a Yorkshire football team nor the Church of the South East – but we do have Welsh and N. Irish football teams.
What a massive own goal!
Shows you how they are thinking- maybe they are taking this ‘levelling up’ notion too far.
I wouldn’t be surpised if (T)Ruthless has a hand in this.
Ach well, Ian Blackford told us yesterday that we have the ‘Claim of Right’ so we must be OK – trouble is, the Scottish pretendy Government don’t act as if we have the ‘Claim of Right’, they act like we are England’s lapdog.
Meg merrilees says:
10 October, 2021 at 5:20 pm
Ach well, Ian Blackford told us yesterday that we have the ‘Claim of Right’ so we must be OK – trouble is, the Scottish pretendy Government don’t act as if we have the ‘Claim of Right’, they act like we are England’s lapdog.
—
Despite the constant denigration of Scotland by English MPs, the SNP leadership seem to be more concerned with protecting their own image than effecting positive changes for Scotland.
They are under the guillotine trying to fix their hair, to paraphrase Thea Gilmore.
This company of surely which the Scottish government and Glasgow city council must know about, wants you to open up your house in Glasgow, to someone coming for the COP26 meeting in November in Glasgow.
If this is the case, then surely all restrictions with regards to Covid must now be quashed, and you must now be able to get a face to face appointment with your GP, and a reasonable time to be seen at A&E and the removal of Covid passports.
Unless of course its do as I say and not do as I do when it comes to Covid rules.
https://www.humanhotel.com/cop26/
Meg @5.20pm.
Meg.
I listened to Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford talking yesterday at Glasgow Green, and I wasn’t impressed he reeled off the same old speel of Johnson must listen to the people of Scotland rhetoric, it was cringeworthy in my opinion.
Blackford is way, way out of touch with the people of Scotland, I half expected him to be grabbed by the collar and ran off the Green, but folk were too polite, a failing if you ask me.
If Blackford is the benchmark in this Scottish government and it looks like he is, then the SNP are not the vehicle to independence for Scotland, there’s no urgency, no energy, no steely determination from Sturgeon or Blackford on pushing for independence, infact its we the people who have more grit and determination on the indyfront.
As for Alastair Jack, that’s just his political opinion, it means nothing.
Our route out of this rancid union, however its being blocked by Sturgeon.
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/10/10/a-plan-for-actionand-the-path-to-take/
The “Fat Banker” will only be interested in what his cut will be here- nothing else matters for the humble crofter!
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/uk-s-big-five-banks-set-to-pay-out-7bn-in-dividends-as-their-earnings-soar/ar-AAPlp9j?ocid=msedgntp
Hey Stu, how is Craig coping??
Well, well are we surprised ?.The jiggery pokery begins.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/rishi-sunak-to-save-billions-by-counting-imf-cash-as-aid-for-poor/ar-AAPlrhH?ocid=msedgntp
Nobody has explained why Blackford went to that demo when he hasn’t gone to any before?
I wish Rev. Stu would chip in on this question. It’s puzzling.
Hatuey @ 10:02 pm
“Nobody has explained why Blackford went to that demo when he hasn’t gone to any before?”
Guilt? Shame? Nicola telt him tae go? Whitivver, the luik on aw thay patriotic Scots fowk’s faces telt us aw we need tae ken: SNP – yer teas oot, unless ye dae this, swith lyke: https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/10/10/a-plan-for-actionand-the-path-to-take/
https://www.bitchute.com/video/77qYeeFKrq1Z/
I came across this interesting speech by Dr Peter McCullough.
Alf, of course he at least had Nicola’s approval and was possibly instructed to go. But why?
They’ve been shunning and undermining the grassroots since 2015. Now, out of the blue, he wants to hang out with us in Glasgow in the pissing rain.
There’s something going down.
Hi Hatuey.
Could it have been that the resurgence of Alex Salmond, the formation of Alba and the continued support for marches and rallies, has caused Sturgeon to reassess her jaiket on the shoogly peg, so a token appearance was deemed necessary?
Hatuey says:
10 October, 2021 at 10:02 pm
Nobody has explained why Blackford went to that demo when he hasn’t gone to any before?
I wish Rev. Stu would chip in on this question. It’s puzzling.
Said without an ounce of enthusiasm, but I wonder if he fancies Sturgeons job, and has begun to sense her days are numbered.
Don’t laugh. We all know we need and want Joanna Cherry in that roll, but Joanna seems to be the Antichrist in the eyes of the Transgender arseholes, whereas a challenge from Blackford might wrong foot Sturgeon’s Pretorian Guard long enough to bring down the pharaoh.
On the face of it, Brian, I don’t think Sturgeon’s position is shoogly. Not in the short term. If it is then it involves something we don’t have sight of. Maybe she has had enough or something is going to unravel… it’s possible but she looks as impervious as ever.
As for your suggestion, Breeks, I wish it was true but Blackford doesn’t strike me as that type. He must know that in the eyes of SNP members and the public at large he isn’t seen as leader material… no?
My best guess, which I’ve been contemplating over the last few days, is that we might be going into a General Election sooner than anybody thought and the SNP got wind of it. They seem to be talking about independence a lot these days, or at least more than they normally would, and they tend to only do that when there’s an election in the pipeline.
Boris has only been in the job a couple of years but with the economy ready to tank a General Election in the spring of next year isn’t a bad idea. If he loses, he leaves Labour to deal with the mess; if he wins, well, he’d pretty much have a mandate to do anything.
All guessing but Blackford’s appearance at that demo was distinctly odd. Something triggered him.
Hatuey,
There’s an even simpler explanation. Kirsty Blackman is gunning for his job so he’s testing the waters to see if a switch to Alba is feasible. 😉
Hatuey says:
11 October, 2021 at 2:45 am
As for your suggestion, Breeks, I wish it was true but Blackford doesn’t strike me as that type. He must know that in the eyes of SNP members and the public at large he isn’t seen as leader material… no?
Neither was Douglas Hurd. I’m thinking of Thatcher’s downfall, where Douglas Hurd entered the Leadership contest on the basis there was support for “anybody except Heseltine”, but only after Thatcher was doomed.
When Sturgeon’s toxicity is terminal, there will be factions of the SNP who will be “Anyone except Cherry”, and Blackford and Robertson will fancy their chances as Major and Hurd.
I confess, I care less and less each passing day. I think ALBA is on a much better trajectory, and ironically, Holyrood might even be the first ship to go down with its Captain.
I truly wonder how long SNP members can look out the window and believe everything is fine. I think the ground is already moving beneath them, and the next UK General Election will be a plebiscite on Indy whether the SNP likes it or not, with Sturgeon’s roll peripheral and seen as a liability.
Things might not get worse but they’re definitely never going to get any better, http://robinmcalpine.org/why-is-everything-going-wrong/
McAlpine’s take on why the Scottish Government has incompetence built into it’s very fabric is going to make interesting reading. No, changing the leader is not going to make any difference.
re the somewhat mysterious appearance of Blackfraud @ SHOCK ! HORROR ! an actual grassroots rally …..various plausible explanations above : I’m inclined towards BDTT’s .
Thing is, when we’ve formed such a negative opinion of any individual or group – rightly negative in the case of NSNP – it’s difficult to concede they might be , finally , doing something right , albeit for the * wrong * reasons
Is it possible the Pleadership realise their position is untenable and unsustainable and are reaching out to the wider Indy movement to demonstrate they are actually serious about confronting the UK State’s intransigence ?
I know , even as I was writing that I couldn’t really believe it was credible : still , not impossible either
COCKUP26 Glasgow…latest.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/19638229.nicola-sturgeon-deliver-ted-talk-ahead-cop26-climate-summit/
She will also tell us of the true meaning of life and of how she’s become a goddess.
Refresh your inner sceptic.
TED talks bollocks….
Ottomanboi says:
11 October, 2021 at 8:29 am
COCKUP26 Glasgow…latest.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/19638229.nicola-sturgeon-deliver-ted-talk-ahead-cop26-climate-summit/
She will also tell us of the true meaning of life and of how she’s become a goddess.
Refresh your inner sceptic.
TED talks bollocks….
Sturgeon talks bollocks at TED . O dear , she’s going to share her * vision *……Christ ! cannae wait for THAT momentous revelation
What this is really about is her trying to grab a wee bit of the spotlight and appear important in the face of her and ScotGov being totally sidelined IN OUR OWN COUNTRY by the * big players * in the COP(out) League .
Scotland effectively reduced to making the tea whilst paying for the banquet it’s excluded from .
Ian “A dozen or so marches and 5 years too late” Blackford.
Did Mike Russell rock up in that horsebox?
UK COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report: week 40:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1023849/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_40.pdf
Stuart MacKay says:
11 October, 2021 at 8:09 am
Things might not get worse but they’re definitely never going to get any better, http://robinmcalpine.org/why-is-everything-going-wrong/
McAlpine’s take on why the Scottish Government has incompetence built into it’s very fabric is going to make interesting reading. No, changing the leader is not going to make any difference.
Sturgeon is doomed, because there will acolytes of Sturgeon reading articles like that, and turning themselves into contortionists to protect Sturgeon from blame.
But as I look around, there has been a massive change in the political landscape, where people are now much more open and committed to Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.
I’m telling you, back in 2014, Brexit 2016, nobody wanted to listen to discussion about Constitutional Sovereignty, and that was a massive blunder in our Independence strategy. Unless and until Scotland’s people have a sound grasp of Constitutional principle, then they are just not ready for the end-game of Scottish Independence. But it is fantastic to see that change of awareness now beginning to happen.
There won’t be a Section 30 debacle to frustrate a Plebiscite General Election, because there won’t be a colonial Scotland Act in the way, (nor indeed, a village idiot First Minister agreeing to it). Forget the puppet show of Holyrood, Scotland’s sovereign Constitution will be the mechanism which facilitates turning the UK General Election into a Plebiscite, and more and more people are about to start realising that…
Thing is, once the penny drops about Scotland’s latent Nation status, Constitutional Sovereignty and the Scotland’s Popular Sovereignty enshrined with the Scottish people, then you cannot grasp those revelations without also realising what a stupid, unconstitutional liability Sturgeon’s Leadership has been, with one lamentable capitulation after another, and dangerous unconstitutional precedents being set with Sturgeon’s incompetent acquiescence.
Sturgeon’s Brexit capitulation, and her own “overruling” of the emphatic democratic will of Scotland’s Sovereign electorate should have seen Sturgeon’s political career hung from a gibbet in 2016. The Salmond stitch up, the jailing of Craig Murray, the abandonment of Independence, the abuse of Cherry,… it’s really quite a charge sheet these days.
But Sturgeon’s unforced concessions have done more strategic constitutional damage to Holyrood than any other facet of Scottish politics I can remember. In her gutless, (and I think clueless), subservience to Westminster and abandonment of Scotland’s Constitutional rights, Sturgeon has driven a sizeable wedge between Holyrood and Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution. She has made Holyrood peripheral to events.
Once Scotland’s YES juggernaut is marching down the Plebiscite UK General Election route, the route I believe ALBA will take it, then I suspect Holyrood will be seen by many as little more than a Colonial Outpost designed to assimilate Scotland’s Sovereign integrity. After Indy, it will go, with all the other instruments and mechanisms of Scotland’s subjugation, and be replaced wholesale by Scotland’s “Provisional Government” elected in the Plebiscite. The building might remain, (oh god, must it?), but not the Institution.
Judging by her most recent remarks, I think Joanna Cherry might be reading that script too. I hold Joanna Cherry in very high regard, and this “setting about her” by the Trans Taliban frankly feels like a political war crime for which heads are eventually going to roll. The same might be said about Alex Salmond’s stitch up too.
But we are not out the woods yet. While I believe Sturgeon is hopelessly incapable of furthering the cause of Scottish Independence, like the proverbial loose cannon, (and as shown quite graphically with her narcissistic “both votes SNP” strategy), she can yet divide and sink the Independence cause, and bedevil the campaign for decades.
The sad truth as I see it, is that if Sturgeon had a shred of integrity and any genuine faith in Scottish Independence, she would be horrified at the damage she had done to the cause, and never dare to show her face in public.
There is a story to come out about Sturgeon. Correction, make that two stories. The story she’ll write about herself, and the story others will write about her… and truthfully, I won’t give a flying fk about reading either.
Don’t be fooled by Blackford. He’s stringing people along on Independence. The SNP need to be able to distract their voters while they get on with the real business of implementing UN mandates Tyranny love and hate speech laws. Has anyone noticed that most so called “hate speech” drips from the mouths of politicians. They are not “Liberal” nor “progressive”. They are the complete opposite.
Fuck off.
ROBERT HUGHES.
Yes, a sprat pretending she’s Godzilla.
Smoke, mirrors and tons of blarney.
Few are fooled.
In..inde..indep..tell me what was put here to do again?
Oh, I remember, get a nice job in some alt.state NGO.
https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2021/10/11/the-economic-vandalism-of-brexit/
Wee niggle… (Not with Prof Robertson), the Business for Scotland graph shows Exports per Head for the UK minus Scotland.
Fine, except… Minus Scotland, the UK ceases to exist. There is no UK, the UK has reverted to being two “K”. Call it the former UK, or the rest of Britain, or the rump UK, but calling it the UK is the wrong outright definition.
Yes it’s pedantic, but it’s a small nitpick which belies a dull perception of Scotland’s true status, and indeed, a weak appreciation of what the United Kingdom actually is. Worse still, it lends credence to the incorrect Unionist / BritNat notion the UK would somehow be a Continuer “UK” State, and Scottish Independence thus an act of secession. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
The UK is comprised of two components, that is, two Constitutional Equals. There’s no such thing as a duet with one musician, nor is there a UK Union with only one sovereign component after the other has left.
Globalist financiers just love small states.
https://archive.ph/l8QeN/again?url=https://www.thenational.scot/politics/19638015.george-kerevan-crisis-lebanon-cautionary-tale-indy-scotland/#comments-anchor
Lebanon has been a play thing of the US and its neighbours since the French quit. It is fundamentally dysfunctional thanks to communal «loyalties» and then the arrival of first Palestinian then Iraqi and Syrian refugees, a petrie dish for breeding corruption.
I do doubt an independent Scotland could ever get as bad. However, being in a political union with a country whose capital is a major site for casino capitalism, property speculation and the laundering of funny money we might take heed.
Alf Baird.
The Celtic Place Names of Scotland, by W J Watson, is a book I have read from cover to cover and re- on a regular basis,
I like history in varying aspects and when I travel around I take this book with me as references to places I pass, I look up the name in the book if they are mentioned.
The variety of the Scots language is rich in its diversity and descriptive explanation.
I was in education when the revival of the welsh language was at its height, and they succeeded to a larger extent by the method they used. In education,
They reversed the English speaking taught method) and replaced the word English with Welsh.
The English lesson was taught in in welsh, the questions were asked in welsh, but you answered in English,
Same for all the other classes.
The teachers spoke Welsh in the corridors between lessons or break time.
Even gymnasium and sports was instructed in Welsh.
English was not allowed to be spoken as a first language.
If you did not know the Welsh language in Wales, to bad,
They were serious about keeping the language and culture.
Robin McAlpine’s first in the series on failure in government, http://robinmcalpine.org/why-is-everything-going-wrong-1-control/ is a bit dry but it’s probably worth a read if only to better understand the current situation and what it means for the future, specifically indyref2.
From the article:
(Policy) is a strategic process, not a presentational one.
And that I believe gets to the core of problem:
Ben Macpherson (Minister for Social Security and Local Government): Now that the Universal Credit is being removed we really need to step up and provide the extra help that working families need.
Nicola Sturgeon (turns to one of the army of Special Advisors who attend cabinet meetings): What do the numbers say?
SPAD: Well, our focus groups show, in key constituencies of soft-No voters, that the Universal Credit top-up is not seen as effective and removing it would make them more like to vote SNP and not Conservative in a future election.
Need I go on?
Breeks .
This is probably one of the biggest underlying cause of why Scotland is so fed up with the British attitude,
Simply said Britain/ uk started with two kingdom countries joining in a treaty.
One country ( England ) had a Parliament run roughly on the mechanicism it runs on today.
A botch up of believes, conventions and no written constitution, ready to sabotage there own words of trust and signatures to break any treaty if the treaty began to equalise the parties involved or favoured the other half as time passed.
The phrase, “ Welshing on a deal” is a big misnomer.
It should be called Englishing on a Deal,
For this is more accurate when studying political history,
We could also include “ sly as a fox “
“Deviant”as the Devil.
“Highly astute” in benefiting rich politicians, but not the people.
Would any country nowadays trust the their word,
I think their reputation is not only going before them, but has caught them up and is biting them in the bahookey.
Their pretence that has lasted for 300 that the Scots were included in the Treaty of the Union is falling apart legally.
In other news, an interesting article on Unherd today about Melbourne, which has just “celebrated” 252 days in lockdown.
Such a shame that the frequent contributors who used to post BTL here about how Scotland should have been emulating Australia and New Zealand, are no longer interested in this site.
They could have posted short apologies for being eejits.
The three estates in 1706 &1707, did not have untrammelled sovereignty in Scotland as Lord Cooper stated in the court of sessions in 1953.
When the treaty was signed in 1707 only the barons and elite in Scotland were compelled to adhere to the treaty of the union, and they were the same ones that received financial payment from England’s politicians in England’s parliament.
Henceforth we find that the Scots have the right to choose their own government “ The of Scotland Claim of right”
Most Scots do not know they are not in the treaty of the union.
It is a scam by English Parliament on Scottish people.
The demo I could not have gone anyway I only knew about it because I saw comments here. Can anyone say who the speakers were what sort of numbers attended .I have not seen anything on TV news were the cameras there were news organizations told etc.
Hi David Ritchie.
Your answers here:-
https://www.thenational.scot/news/19637259.yes2indee-march-ian-blackford-pledges-indyref2-legislation/
The English politicians offered us a devolved government.
And Scots voted for it NOT KNOWING THAT THEY WERE NEVER IN THE TREATY ORIGINALLY.
And Westminster certainly was not going to broadcast it.
But Westminster did know and was aware of it as the debate on it was taken up by Lord Cooper in 1953,
Thus the devolved government was deliberately set up to stymie the Scots.
To try capture them as they had not managed to do in 1707.
It is up to us the people to choose a new government. Preferably not devolved, but a sovereign people’s parliament.
We do not have to follow the the devolved government guide lines or Westminster’s according to our legal position
We simply arrange a people’s official vote ourselves to choose a new government. Legally.
If this is ignored by the devolved government,
We simply return the favour.
Breeks 11:39 am
This subject has been done to death previously Breeks. In summary:
1. Its a name – not a description (think Greenland, Ivory Coast or Poppy or India, etc)
2. It is up to the folk of a country to decide what they want to call their country.
3. If Scotland was an independent, it would have bug*** all to do with Scots, what the rest of us decided we want to call ourselves.
Finally, why would you care one jot?
Its that old Stockholm Syndrome variant again isn’t it.
Breeks
PS
Btw, given the comments previously on nativism, etc, what would Scotland call itself after Independence – when a large % of the population are not “Scots”? Three-quarters Scotland?
Thus the Scots have spoken and chosen their right to self determination.
It would be interesting to say the least to take this legal position and watch them try legally re – arrange the treaty of the union signatures of the three estates that did not hold sovereignty over Scots and Scotland in 1707,
to fit their 300 year narrative in context of the treaty after Evel laws was introduced by Cameron,
After the Brexit vote,
after Maggie thatchers comments,
after Lord Coopers court of sessions debate.
And after them being well aware the Scots were still sovereign, but not informing the Scots of their legal position when offering a devolved government vote to Scots,
They have omitted evidence and obfuscated the laws and legalese of the Scotland and England treaty verses the legal facts to the Scots.
HOW MANY SCOTS KNOW THEY WERE NOT IN THE TREATY OF THE UNION?
HOW MANY SCOTS KNEW THAT THE THREE ESTATES DID NOT HOLD SOVEREIGNTY OVER THE SCOTS AND SCOTLAND IN 1707?
HOW MANY SCOTS ARE STILL IGNORANT THEY ARE INDEED STILL SOVEREIGN AS THE DECLARATION Of ARBROATH STATES?
James Che
Ffs! HOW MANY SCOTS VOTED RELATIVELY RECENTLY TO BE PART OF THE UNION???
Sensible Dave.
True A lot of us wonder how many Scots voted to stay in the union,
You can’t opt to stay longer in the union if you are not in it in the first place would be logical thinking.
Breeks @ 9.20 a.m. You raise a good question: Do we really need to continue with the Holyrood building after independence? We don’t, and I certainly hope we won’t.
I would like to see the Scottish parliament move to a more central location in Scotland. That could mean Inverness or Perth. Inverness might be better geographically, though Perth, with Scone nearby coupled with ancient kingship associations, might claim greater historical precedent.
If it was deemed necessary to keep the parliament in the Central Belt, then it has to be neither Edinburgh nor Glasgow. Stirling is, in that case, the obvious place.
Wherever it is, let it be a proper and appropriate Scottish-style building. There were good such plans submitted to the original competition. These specifically Scottish submissions by highly reputed Scottish architectural firms were overlooked (or came in second, or further down) by the judges.
That is to say, by the Dewar-appointed placemen and placewomen, or whatever they now are – he/ she/ it(s) – who judged the competition. Like his pal, Kirsty Wark, for instance.
What made the likes of Kirsty Wark competent to judge such matters? No wonder nobody managed to cost it anywhere near correctly, just picking a hopelessly inadequate figure out of thin air.
What should be done with the Holyrood building? One wag said to me: ‘Turn it into a sauna; given the goings-on in the place, that’ll save them the bother of having to apply for a ‘change of use’ for it!’
More seriously, we do need a competent second chamber to scrutinise legislation. Just look at some of the (very) ‘bad law’ that Holyrood has put on the books! According to what I hear from those who know about these things, much of the legislation has been ill formulated, open to all kinds of interpretations, and misuse, and often almost impossible to apply r implement.
I wouldn’t mind there being a second chamber in Edinburgh, but not the main parliament. The functions and functioning of that second chamber would have to be clarified, of course, and well defined. I suspect it would not have to meet all the time, in which case the building could also be used for other events and purposes besides. Serious, not frivolous events and purposes – so, that too would have to be defined.
I am half way there with you’re thinking Wull, but one of the best overseers of Scottish democracy is the Scots themselves.
It should be a Sovereign Scots people’s Parliament, whereby the people are in that position of overseer of the Parliament.
I am pretty sure most people in Scotland would not have agreed to taken parents rights away, and replacing it with gender education.
Removing Women’s rights by the back door of slapping new invented laws over the top of them.
or the mocked up mucked up inquiries after the AS and Craig Murray incidents.
Nor would the Scots people have agreed to the intrusion of privacy into their homes and family conversations by agreeing to the hate crime bill.
People in power usually succumb to being bought and corruption,
But a nation are generally not so.
As to where our new Parliament should be?
I once read that Rannoch Station is the centre of Scotland.
Does any one know if this is correct ?
Maybe over half of England are not english, there are Americans, Irish, muslins, french, Scots Welsh, Viking’s polish, Romans’ Italians and Chinese, Norman’s and much more especially after recent migration and immigration before Brexit and afterwards,
But I think England would still call itself England and the English would still call themselves English.
I do not see why either England or Scotland need to change their names
@ Wull and Breeks , Breeks stop getting us all excited posting alternative measures that Nikla would brick herself at ,it is greeeaatt that many more people are becoming aware and enlightened re our sovereignty and the power that is within it if we should choose to wield it
Regarding AS and the ALBA party this is exactly the time that Alex should be DECLARING VOCIFEROUSLY what sovereignty means to a SCOT and to that end he again should DECLARE VOCIFEROUSLY that EVERY forthcoming election that ALBA participates in will be on a Plebiscitery basis , that way EVERYONE will be aware of what they are voting for even the yoonionists and there can be no ambiguity regarding the outcome , THAT ALONE would force ("Tractor" - Ed) Sturgeon and Paddy the freak to show their hand or as they say in Govan shit or get aff the pan
The time for niceties towards your enemies is past , if ALBA wants independence and power they will HAVE TO get down and dirty and EXPOSE the REAL TRUTH of what is happening in Scotland and who is responsible for the clusterfuck affecting Scots , it is NOT just WM to blame it is also Sturgeon and her incompetent coven of clowns
James Che @ 4.57 pm. I agree with you there. You make me think: could a ‘second chamber’ have various different functions, not always fulfilled by the same people? Could it then have a membership exceeding its seating capacity (for instance, by two or three or even four times that capacity)? Some would be elected for one kind of parliamentary business, others for another. But all would have oversight responsibilities in regard to the other parliament, and the legislation it puts forward.
They would not all sit at the same time (physically impossible anyway), and they might not have permanent salaries (other than a ‘sitting allowance’, perhaps, each time they meet). But what we could aim at is a real variety of voices being heard. It could be a condition that some members have NO Party affiliation. There could even be sittings reserved to such members!
This is just imagining things, from the top of my head. Other people could imagine many other things. Use of the imagination is a necessary starting-point: the nuts and bolts of actually making something systematic, and workable, can come later, or rather in the process.
My point would be that there has to be a means to wrest control of the political process from the kind of so-called ‘professional politicians’ who, all too often, turn pout to be self-serving troughers. We talk about having a ‘people’s assembly’ as if that would be an extraordinary thing, and in practice it never actually happens (or, if it did, it would very likely turn out not to be such). Isn’t a ‘people’s assembly’ precisely what a parliament is supposed to be anyway? On a permanent, stable basis.
There must surely be mechanisms available to make parliament approximate to that ideal far better than it currently does. (As an aside, I have always thought that one such mechanism might be to peg each full-time parliamentary representative’s salary at the level they were earning before they elected, with a not excessively high upper limit. Of course, you have to work out a system for that, to make it implementable. But such should not be beyond the powers of common sense.)
@ Wull I have long echoed Breeks position of a second chamber for a Scottish govt to comprise of ordinary working people who would hold the politicians feet to the fire irrespective of party loyalty
I have also ranted endlessly for a proper,real recall law that puts constituents in control NOT political parties , it is reprehensible , disgusting and outrageous that these supposed representatives of the people when found to have breached any or all of their conditions of employment can act contrite or not and still remain in their jobs , examples such as grooming children are ignored and apparently rewarded by large salaries and expenses
That things like that can be acceptable indicates the total and utter contempt these arseholes hold for the electorate
Rejoice fellow Scots! I’ve found a redeeming positive aspect of Scotland’s ageing, shit feared, non-risking taking, and anti-revolutionary demographic,…
Just got an ace car insurance quote from SAGA…
Only 120 green queens a year for being an excellent low risk but old driver… So I’m a bit 🙂 and 🙁
O/T Craig Murray’s cell number is now G3/38.
This is his 71st day in prison. What nasty s..ts they are in COPFS who put him there. How I wish they get their come-uppance.
Re the daft comments of a second chamber in Scottish Politics. Would it not be better to get a first one that actually works?
Wull says:
“What should be done with the Holyrood building? One wag said to me: ‘Turn it into a sauna; given the goings-on in the place, that’ll save them the bother of having to apply for a ‘change of use’ for it!’
—————-
The building is not that bad in my opinion, it’s modern and would fit in very well in the Med. countries. It needs a warm environment.
I think it would be ideal in an independent Scotland as a Modern Art Gallery, like say The Scottish National Gallery for Modern, Contemporary Art.
Full of paintings, sculptures and other “Works of Art” from home and abroad. Regular changing exhibitions.
In the middle of Embra it would be a magnet for tourists and art lovers from all over the world.
Less “Tat” and more open to the modern world of which we’re a part.
RE: second chamber.
In an independent Scotland, I wouldn’t be averse to this.
Primary chamber: as the Scottish parliament is now, 129 MSPs, a combination of FPTP and regional.
Secondary chamber (overseeing, able to veto), 59, as per the Westminster constituencies, FPTP.
Of course, this all depends on what kind of a constitution we Scots will vote for post-independence.
Oh ffs. What next?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-launches-smear-test-drive-without-mentioning-women/ar-AAPnVD1?ocid=msedgntp
The only smear they’ll end up with robbo, is likely to be brown, with red flecks.
;-(
Pre ops needn’t apply ?
I’d make all these “trans”
womengo for a smear test.If they can handle a metal duck jammed up their cock without crying they’re a woman?
Fuck them. Play them at their own game.
“Dan says:
11 October, 2021 at 7:11 pm
Rejoice fellow Scots! I’ve found a redeeming positive aspect of Scotland’s ageing, shit feared, non-risking taking, and anti-revolutionary demographic,…
Just got an ace car insurance quote from SAGA…
Only 120 green queens a year for being an excellent low risk but old driver… So I’m a bit ? and ?”
I must be ancient; my motorbike insurance is less than that…
@Scott (11.17) –
I don’t know if things have changed, but almost 30 yrs ago I went to GP because I suspected I might have a wee infection ‘down there’.
He said he’d take a swab, and that involved me sitting on the edge of the bed while he stuck a *DRY* ‘Q-tip’ several centimetres into my dick. When he pulled it out it felt like I was being disembowelled. Then he said ‘okay, we’re doing great, just one more’ and he did it again, whereupon I blanked out and he had to prop me up until I came round. He then made me sit in the waiting room for ten minutes before I could leave. I had to pause twice on the ten-minute walk home, to throw up.
So, yes, if that’s what a ‘smear test’ for transwomen might look like, I’d be very interested to see what kind of uptake there is.
Ian Brotherhood says:
12 October, 2021 at 12:01 am
@Scott (11.17) –
I don’t know if things have changed, but almost 30 yrs ago I went to GP because I suspected I might have a wee infection ‘down there’.
—
I’m still waiting on ma baws dropping back into place after wincing when reading about the q-tip. That should have been a general anaesthetic job. Did you pump his wife or something?
Coincidently, a friend of mine went to his GP almost 30 years ago with the same suspicion and walked out with a script for Redoxon. Good stuff that was. The tickling & burning sensations disappeared quite quickly, or so my friend said.
Neither of us know if things have changed.
I feel sorry for that ian blackford,some of his best friend;s
are nicola sturgeon
Here we go again Scotland’s world cup qualifier against the Faroes buried on Sky while on “Scottish telivision” we are treated to England v Hungary.
Is there any other country in the world with an ounce of self respect who would tolerate this.
All part of the plan.
There was talk back in the day, (can’t remember if it Devolution or Holyrood), but somebody observed the Scottish Parliament could be convened in a field if it was necessary.
I know, I know, I know, that’s not practicable, but it would be a nice way to weed out pompous charlatans lured into politics by all the trappings if your Parliamentary “seat” was a bail of straw. (If they still actually make the little squares ones you can sit on).
The only fly in that ointment is Local Authority Planning Committees routinely do meet in fields, and they are prone to all kinds of shenanigans, and I’m not at all sure there’s much pomposity being filtered out either. Ah well, back to the drawing board…
But for once however, Chas the Grinch is right. It’s more important what the Parliament does, and the Constitution it lives by, rather than the building (or field) where the session takes place.
Well I never … ‘The Scotsman’ actually doing a story on the Picts.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/follow-in-the-footsteps-of-the-picts-across-the-highlands/ar-AAPnPHD?ocid=msedgntp
No Fight Club: file under ‘pissing on emasculated male psychologists in Edinburgh.’ 🙂
https://whorattledyourcage.blogspot.com/2021/10/no-fight-club.html
IMO I don’t think a UK GE is on the cards, too many things are getting sticky for BJ.
Having won over the “Red Wall” areas last time there needs to be tangible improvements in their living standards, otherwise a lot of new tory MPs are going to be put up against the wall next time. They played a big part in BJs “win”. No PM wants losses so why would BJ chance his luck in an uncertain situation.
So I don’t think Ian the Blowhard or Sturgeon’s cabal are being influenced by it, they have other problems looming up before their eyes.
More and more folk are starting to realise just how weird and useless the “Sturgeon SNP” have become. They can’t hide their strange gender woo woo policies, lack of any distinct infrastructure success, cowardly failure to use the Indy mandates presented on a plate, too much kow-towing to WM.
That can’t have escaped them and I think it’s starting to dawn on them that their “Untergang” downfall could be nearer than they thought. The pact with the Greens just made thing worse.
ALBA and the YES movement haven’t collapsed or gone away. On the contrary..!
It seems to me, this was a panic move by Nikla and the blowhard was sent in to try and stem the tide. They needed a mug so they got one of their biggest to do it.
The noose round Niklas neck just got a bit tighter. 🙂
Were ScotGov nationalist instead of devolutionist the operations of media companies in Scotland would be a matter for very close investigation. Maybe it’s been warned of «consequences» should it do so.
What people daily see and read influences opinion, therefore virtually output has subliminal unionjackery all the way through, rather like those neat union flags on food store products.
Not there by happenstance.
There are good ideas of a future Parliament and how there should be a second chamber full of ordinary people to hold the politicians feet to the fire.
Some excellent new thinking on how things should be changed.
The commons down south was meant to be for lower classes of the upper class,
However there is to much residency of each political sitter and thus it turned into a different branch of landed gentry,
Perhaps the second overseer chamber of ordinary people should be select from the public in a manner similar to the old jury selections,
And perhaps any lobbying to the parliament should be done first through this second chamber so we can ascertain whom are trying to hold and have influence over our government,
We would know whom ideas &influencers are for such things as gender issues, and sex education, age discrimination and extremism before it ever get to politicians
As to the Parliament itself, there should be a shorter time period they sit in office as this would knock out career politicians,
If they were good at working for the people and country they would soon be voted back in, but this would put paid to the likes of the murrells and and other politicians whom lose touch with reality and the people sitting smug year after year.
Three of the first subjects besides the above I would like to be addressed,
Is decentralisation of the police force back to local manned police stations, with bobbies back on the street, getting to know the people communities,
The second issue would be localised incentives to reinstate local town shops and businesses.
apprenticeships for the young to middle age in trades. Bring life back in to the towns and cities away from big cooperations.
Reducing the size of local council areas so voting is fairer,
Whereby the public have access to these offices directly and councillors can be kept in check,
Ours here are as corrupt as any career politician,
This would be a good start, to righting some of the corruptions in our midst from unaccountable.
I still tend to think the overall parliament should be called and enacted as the “sovereign Scots people’s Parliament” just to deter it from going crooked through dis- association of the people as the snp have done.
James Che (sic):
“HOW MANY SCOTS ARE STILL IGNORANT THEY ARE INDEED STILL SOVEREIGN AS THE DECLARATION Of ARBROATH STATES?”
Do you have another version of the DofA? It seems to differ from the one everyone else knows, in which the turncoat, murderer and usurper Robert the Bruce attempts to suborn the pope’s agents in Scotland in order to help him renege on the previously agreed and accepted appointment to the Scots throne, by offering up the country’s sovereignty to the selfsame pope of Rome. Bit like the current desire to “rejoin” the EU. Funny that.
an Brotherhood says:
12 October, 2021 at 12:01 am
@Scott (11.17) –
I don’t know if things have changed, but almost 30 yrs ago I went to GP because I suspected I might have a wee infection ‘down there’.
He said he’d take a swab, and that involved me sitting on the edge of the bed while he stuck a *DRY* ‘Q-tip’ several centimetres into my dick. When he pulled it out it felt like I was being disembowelled. Then he said ‘okay, we’re doing great, just one more’ and he did it again, whereupon I blanked out and he had to prop me up until I came round. He then made me sit in the waiting room for ten minutes before I could leave. I had to pause twice on the ten-minute walk home, to throw up.
So, yes, if that’s what a ‘smear test’ for transwomen might look like, I’d be very interested to see what kind of uptake there is.
Brings back unfond memories, a small cocktail umbrella was used in the 1980’s, without warning thankfully.
Like being kicked in the nuts and having had a small cocktail umbrella dragged out of your japseye.
Clean as a whistle it turned out,yet the truth demands terrible invasions.
I wouldn’t like to see a petri dish after a swab from the warm, damp seats the NUSNP lounge on.
John macnab.
As it turned out for the Scots in history, it fell in their favour.
That’s what counts really.
Do you not like the result?
This Guardian (tedious) long read is a classic of the cancel type.
https://archive.ph/hORVA/again?url=https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/12/africa-slaves-erased-from-history-modern-world
No mention of this.
https://www.fairplanet.org/dossier/beyond-slavery/forgotten-slavery-the-arab-muslim-slave-trade/
Or of this under researched field.
https://www.academia.edu/13201133/Indigenous_Slavery_in_Africas_History_Conditions_and_Consequences
History is never so good guy bad guy as the new order would have you believe.
There were/are «dirty hands» everywhere. Certainly not something you should beat yourself up about.
The idea of having ordinary people in a second chamber has unforeseen benefits.
Most people in the electorate are not aware of the politics that goes on behind closed doors, and most politicians would like it to remain so,
This is why most Scots for 300 years did not know that the three estates that irregularly sat as a stand in Scottish self elected Parliament did not hold sovereignty in Scotland
The English nor the Scottish devolved Parliament did nothing honest to inform the Scots, even during the talks of a devolved government or the Scottish referendum 2014, or during the Brexit vote that they were still legally detached from England due to the Scottish Parliament not holding the sovereignty of Scotland in 1706/1707.
Not a whisper of the elephant in the room for 300 years.
It is about time we Scots did get involved with what happens to us, our country,
It is time for us to know politics and the hidden truths,
James Chay:
It’s spelt ‘McNab’; differently from the novel by Buchan. How did it fall in favour of the “Scots in history”? What is, or was, the result, as you see it?Do you side with the nobility and the agents of an alien and imposed church? Do you consider the following two excerpts from the text to be the sentiments of a sovereign and independent people?
“…the whole community of the realm of Scotland send all manner of filial reverence, with devout kisses of his blessed feet.”
“To conclude, we are and shall ever be, as far as duty calls us, ready to do your will in all things, as obedient sons to you…”
Breeks.
The way decisions were made in times past in Scotland was often in a field or more often on top of a notable hill,
When you read old history place names of Scotland, some of the names remain unchanged to this day,
And it certainly brings a smile to ones face when you imagine wish fhart or Mr & Mrs M sitting in the rain sleet or snow on a cold stone, with no fancy heating.
It might wake them up a bit and blow the cobwebs of insanity out their ears. 🙂
@James Che
Where in Wales did you go to school?
PhilM?
I will ask my mother the next time I see her, as she would know the correct welsh spelling, she spoke welsh as her father was welsh, and her mothers side being Scottish.
Did you encounter the welsh revival of their language,
I was in Wales at the time period that Wales itself was going through an awakening and upheaval, when houses were still being set on fire,
I remember trying to learn the welsh language, and all these years on I remember one or two words.
But my younger brothers and sisters picked it up a lot easier due to their youth,
I suppose what didn’t help myself much was being dyslexic,
I was struggling In Scotland before I moved from scotland to Wales,
However as time has passed and there are such things as computers and spell checkers, synonyms readily available life has become easier if not perfect,
I enjoyed my time in Wales, they were very similar to Scots in outlook and nature.
Friendly and cautious,
I still have an antique toy an old welsh lady gave me that I treasure to this day.
There is no such thing as too much democracy.
Democracy and popular sovereignty start at the local level where there is assumed knowledge and competence, not with remote parliaments where paradoxically there may be neither.
An independent Scotland might embrace the concept of «subsidiarity» e.g. the federated Swiss model, as a counter to the growing trend of anti-localism and centralization.
The list system of our parliament was supposed to be used to bring in ordinary citizens from outwith politics,
citizens who had real life experiance outside the white middle class uni `educated` establishment bubble of politics,media and academia,
citizens from industry,manufacture,health services,housing,agriculture and fisheries,
but instead we got the dead beats of politics,
would a second chamber not ultimately be misused as another place to stack full of unelected hingers on.
Don’t know whether to laugh or cry at this… https://archive.is/06Ty4
On the one hand, it’s a profound indictment of “influencial” women if Sturgeon tops the list, but it will also incense the Trans Taliban that Sturgeon is actually called a woman. Ha! Ha! Ha! How dare they!
If you wanted to talk about actual influence, when Joanna Cherry contested Boris Johnson’s right to prorogue the Westminster Parliament, Joanna used the Scottish doctrine of popular sovereignty to secure victory over Johnson and the whole UK Establishment, outstripping the jurisdiction of the UK’s Supreme Court in the process, and forcing Johnson to reopen Parliament on the basis that Scottish Government served sovereign people, and thus, could not remove itself from scrutiny by said sovereign people.
Thus an unwritten convention allowing the UK Prime Minister to open or close Westminster on a personal whim was taken apart by Joanna Cherry, and the whole top down Westminster Establishment, including the Queen, (and incidentally at a time when the flag waving UK Parliament was intoxicated by Brexit), was compelled to respect a Scottish Constitutional doctrine which doesn’t exist in England. Not bad “influence” for our Joanna Cherry.
In UK terms, I would rank Joanna Cherry as one of the most objectively influential people in the whole UK, if not the world. Not with any patronising backhanded compliment “that she’s just a woman”, because there’s not a man born who could have done any better.
In contrast, the only apparent influence Sturgeon commands is over the Crown Office and Daily Record, and that’s nothing to be proud of. Oh, and occasionally making half the YES community reach for a sick bucket.
Ottomanboi.
Something similar along my line of thinking,
Parliaments, politicians and local society communities have become separate over the years,
Leaving most people with no justice or hope,
Scot finlayson.
Yes that has been what has happened in politics
That is why picking ordinary people from everyday life would be a solution,
Provided it was done in such a way as to keep the people changing in the second chamber instead of elected,
Such a system could work if it was a proper selection process took place, such as the old juries system were selected, but, and only a suggestion, say once a month
Less likely hood of going corrupt.
Breeks.
Astute point made on Scottish sovereignty.
James
“The idea of having ordinary people in a second chamber has unforeseen benefits.”
yeah right … I would observe that the average “ordinary person” doesn’t have the ability to read, comprehend, assess and make judgement on just a couple of paragraphs of serious text – let alone a long white paper or whatever. It would come down to party politics and people voting for or against something on the basis of the “headlines” from the major parties.
It will never fly matey.
The Scots are not ignorant by any means, but they have been by passed as to the realities of their country and politics,
It would be interesting and most inspiring to see them take up the gauntlet you throw down at their their intelligence.
Breeks
Def ( or maybe ” Deaf ” ) laughter ….
” Posting about the report, the team wrote: “As a brand we are inspired by women every day and strive to empower women through self-love, both in our products and messaging.”
Sturgid’s idea of ” empowering women ” = rendering the category Women redundant by making it easier for any knob to call themselves one .
” Self-love ” . Way back in the days before narcissism became the State religion such a concept would have been frowned upon , now it’s de rigueur amongst our political class .
Maybe a little less ” self-love ” and a good deal more genuine concern for and commitment to the perennially disadvantaged – whatever their gender/sexual orientation- rather than solely for atomised , selective , minority interest groups would result in radical change for society in general
James 2.59
… for clarity, I wasn’t aiming my comments at Scots. The same applies to lay folk across the world.
As an old codger that is still holding down a reasonably difficult job, I note that many in business are unable to focus and concentrate on reading a pretty standard commercial contract (in order to be able to point out issues, problems or where changes are required.
Clearly I do not share your optimism about the capabilities of “ordinary” folk … and I certainly wouldn’t want to have to rely on them as a revising chamber.
James Che
Btw, I remember being on Wings when MPs voted to have EVEL legislation.
Numptie after numptie popped up raging and shouting about the inequality of it all and how laws could be passed by the ENglish MPs that would affect Scotland – without SCottish MPs having a say.
I spent hours trying to explain to the loonies that any new law presented on the floor of the HoC – could only pass after the whole house had voted by a majority – just like any other law.
If folk can’t even grasp that ….
Clock ticking on bid to save Burns and Scott works for the nation.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd8v14jz3m9o
Only £15m needed, so where’s the Lottery cash or Alister Jack asking for it on our behalf?
Rising gas prices Industry screaming for help Uk Government ministers not speaking to each other Fuel shortages supermarkets facing shortages a UK budget that will hit everyone Politicians worldwide with no clue what to do. A Pandemic and a UK budget on the way that might be one of the hardest in living memory I think we are heading for a worldwide crash .And it looks as if Donald Trump is going to run for President again he is reported to have already raised 100 million dollars and Boris on holiday to make things worse he will be back.
David Ritchie
… never mind! In the brightside, the mighty English football team take to the pitch tonight to (hopefully) confirm their rightful place in the World Cup. COYE!
Loathe as I am to agree with “Sensible Dave” he probably has a point with respect to trusting the man on the Clachaig omnibus…..
Bi-cameral legislatures are a rarity in small nation states, whether in Europe or more widely in the world. The Danes abolished their second chamber some time ago. A decent committee system ought to be enough: not that I’d hold the current devolutionary Scottish parliament as a great example of that given the Salmond inquiry, but you have to hope a post independence Scottish parliament wouldn’t be as full of sentient party political spam as the current version.
If there IS a real desire and majority for a second chamber, I think it should be similar to the Seanad Éireann. They have 60 senators, and though I don’t like the fact the Taoiseach just gets to appoint 11, and that university graduates from 2 universities get to vote 6 in, the “indirect” nature of it appeals more.
The other senators are elected from various “vocational panels” (administrative, agricultural, cultural/educational, industrial/commercial & labour).
Quite a nice touch is that if a majority of senators and at least a third of the Dáil petition the President to state that a Bill is of “great national importance” he can decline to sign the Bill until it is either referred to the people for decision in a referendum, or by the Dáil after a new election.
Scotland still pushing towards NetZero…
It’s totes green as fuck transporting offshore windturbine bases that are made in China to Scotland.
There’s 100 destined for a windfarm off Montrose. Apparently they’re shipped 5 at a time on boats to Scotland, so just the 20 boat trips to get em all here.
There’s a couple sitting in Dundee docks at the moment as got damaged somewhere along the line.
So for whatever reasons we can’t build them here, but we do have the ability to repair whatever damage they sustain during transit.
Boats use a shitload of fuel, so on the eco vibe…
Has anyone tried to build a harness for a whale or seal and train them to tow barges laden with goods that require maritime transportation.
If you can coerce them to do gymnastic displays in a enclosed pool by giving them a fish every now and then it suggests this idea could have
legsfins.Sensible Dave says:
12 October, 2021 at 3:12 pm
Clearly I do not share your optimism about the capabilities of “ordinary” folk … and I certainly wouldn’t want to have to rely on them as a revising chamber.
Andy Ellis says:
12 October, 2021 at 4:38 pm
Loathe as I am to agree with “Sensible Dave” he probably has a point with respect to trusting the man on the Clachaig omnibus…..
—
Why?
15 ordinary people form a jury in Scotland.
A similar citizen’s assembly, rather than the party poltics and posturing cults of personality in charge now, would be welcomed by many.
2020,
`A number of North Sea oil fields will be facing a swifter end to their economic life due to the recent oil price drop, according to a leading petroleum economist (Professor Alex Kemp, of Aberdeen University),
The average operating costs in the North Sea is $15 per barrel, with most still covering that with the price now roughly down to $25 due to the coronavirus wiping out global demand.
Prof Kemp (the expert) expects oil and gas prices may continue to drop in the coming months before a “modest” increase towards the end of the year.`
Brent crude is now at $83 per barrel so if you take away operating costs of $15pb (according to expert) that`s $68 million dollars every day of Scotland`s natural resources going down to London every day.
@Scott 6.30 pm
Because running (or even just temporarily helping to run) a country =/= sitting on a jury. I sat on a jury a few years ago and it was an interesting experience. The case was long, complicated and had similarities with Alex Salmond’s recent case. The verdict was in the end the right one and the system worked well, but that doesn’t mean I’d entrust the running of a country to a similarly qualified group of citizens.
This isn’t 5th century Athens, we’re not expecting citizens to pitch up outside Holyrood and organise a direct democracy by choosing black or white pebbles from a jar. Citizens assemblies make for good soundbites, but I suspect would be terrible practical politics. I think there are other ways of fostering more engagement like strengthening the right of recall, ensuring any second chamber reflects interest groups other than political parties, greater use of referendums on the Swiss model etc.
With luck a post indy Scottish parliament would contain more than just the current tired old wine in new bottles.
Sadly I have my doubts were about to find out anytime soon. Perhaps our children or theirs will have more political courage than the current generation.
Just writing a birthday card for Craig Murray.
If anyone missed it, his birthday is on the 17th October, and the current (new) address is:
157095 C Murray
G3/38 H M Prison Edinburgh
33 Stenhouse Road
Edinburgh EH11 3LN
@Sensible Dave,
Yeh we get to watch the England game on Scottish Television,
like we got to watch the England game on Scottish Television on Saturday,
what`s the chances you lot would be happy watching Scotland being forced down your throat while your own team was playin a couple of crucial games.
We also get to watch the cricket which is about as entertaining as you lot playin football.
Andy Ellis says:
12 October, 2021 at 6:52 pm
—-
What a daft cunt you really are.
Only juries that YOU sit on are capable of reaching the right decision? All juries and similar citizen groups in the future are shite by default im your mind.
Only a future system that’s more or less the same as now can fix the issues, but only if ordinary folk take the places of the current politicians.
Circular arguments from you as per usual.
Tell us all again about that time you cut up your SNP membership card, it’s always a right laugh when you mention it as a distraction.
Or as a former politics student, you could regale us with what you actually learned at Lancaster Uni, not what you think you believe.
Faroes match.
The crichd link tonight keeps buffering. Found a better one at:-
http://www.hesgoal.com/news/88935/Faroe_Islands_vs_Scotland.html
Scot Finlayson says:
12 October, 2021 at 7:10 pm
We also get to watch the cricket which is about as entertaining as you lot playin football.
—
True fact: Scotland has more club cricketers than England. (% of population v same)
@Scott 7.20 pm
Sheesh..you really are a nasty waste of DNA aren’t you? Does it ever occur to you to interact with what people actually say, not write your brain farts down?
Juries IN GENERAL are a good thing, nowhere did I say or infer that only those with me sitting on them were capable of making correct decisions you utter zoomer.
Small groups of randomly chosen citizens making judgements on cases in a court are not the same thing as governing a country. Only a simpleton could think make such an intellectually lazy assumption. It’s like trying to explain small and far away to Father Dougal with you at the best of times.
I learned at Lancaster University enough to get me a fully paid studentship at St Andrews University, Scott. It was a while ago right enough, but what I learned at both still fresh enough to make a reasoned case for my arguments, rather than throw rhetorical shit around like you because it’s easier to cal people “daft cunts” than to formulate anything even close to a case.
ffs . At ened of half there .
McTominay cross should have been inside the keeper, not outside. Hope he doesn’t regret that. Might even have scored or dykes was there to tap in anyhow.
Scotland making it hard work as usual. Nowt changes I suppose.
Get McGregor and Nisbet on Clarke ya bam.
Nowt ticking at moment.
Well, that was weirdly interesting.
Watched the whole of the first half at
http://www.hesgoal.com/news/88935/Faroe_Islands_vs_Scotland.html
with no buffering. During half-time, I had to refresh the page 4 times, because of buffering.
Second half now on – and no buffering!
@BDTT: you’d be better off with more buffering, frankly.
McTominay in particular very poor. Changes have to be made.
Hi TC.
See you Saturday?
Aboot time Clarke.
McGregor should have been on ages ago.
scored yas
@BDTT: probs, if God spares me and I can get my wee black Chanel number oot o’ Pullar’s 🙂 .
@Tinto Chiel –
Please be aware that your pronouns may be checked against your particulars before admission.
😉
@ Ian B: never you mind about my particulars, you dirty boy 🙂 .
A right “scraper” in The Faroes, innit?
Africa does not deserve this shit.
https://archive.ph/6dU3k
FU, UN!
@Andy Ellis 6:52 pm
You nailed that argument Andy.
Myself, I prefer a certain level of tested, qualified expertise in the people who repair my car, prescribe my contact lenses, or (God forbid), adjust my ventilator in the ICU.
The idea that politics is so easy that any numpty can do it doesn’t convince me. In fact, looking at the record of politicians of all parties and none over the past 30 years, I have concluded that there is a lot of sense in the hereditary principle. From concert pianists, through athletics, to chess, many of the best practitioners started when they were still in primary school. I can’t help thinking the best kind of politicians are those who grow up with the craft, not those who come into politics because they have failed at everything else.
But to get back to the hypothetical Scottish system of government, put in place by a hypothetical set of politicians after a hypothetical referendum or rebellion. I’m thinking there are plenty of ready-made, off-the-shelf working solutions we can copy from other countries around the world.
The example you give at 4:38 pm looks good to me.
@Ottomanboi: not quite in the Kissinger Nobel Prize for Peace category but not far off.
In the New World Order, it doesn’t matter how corrupt, stupid or unprincipled you are, there will always be a safe billet for you, with oodles of cash.
At last – we now know beyond any doubt that the SNP are not interested in independence AT ALL.
This morning, live on the BBC’s ‘Today’ programme, around 8.00am, Sir Geoffrey Donaldson – N.Irish Unionist politician (he kept repeating that he ‘is a Unionist’) freely admitted that the Tories have breached Article Four of the 1707 Treaty Of Union which basically states that no port in the United Kingdom should operate at any disadvantage from any other port in the UK – the very point that David Mundell and Ruth, now Baroness Davidson said they would resign over if it took place.
He goes so far as to say that the PM has to tell Europe that the Treaty of Union is more important than the EU protocol and the Good Friday Agreement.
When it was pointed out to him that he was breaking the law by not complying with the N. Ireland protocol, his answer was ‘I am a Unionist’
So we have a Unionist politician, live on the BBC, telling ‘the whole country’ that the Treaty of Union has been broken – so WHY does NO-ONE from the SNP stand up and say that ‘the game’s a bogey’ and announce that the union is over since the Tories have broken it themselves.
JOB DONE – Scotland is free.
Since I became a proud ‘blood and soil’ nationalist, my team hasn’t been beaten. And for the first time since about 1978, I am actually enjoying watching international football. I’ve even made a few quid on bets.
Anyway, I’ve been contemplating nationalism and what it all means…
You’re walking along a railway line and you find two guys tied to the tracks, one Scottish and one English. You hear a train coming and aren’t sure if you will have time to untie both. Which one do you untie first?
Andy Ellis says:
12 October, 2021 at 8:19 pm
Who said any citizens assembly would be a small group like a jury? Only you. Form it the same way was what I said.
Scots Law doesn’t need a permanently assembled legislature in order to function. They cause bad laws to be created anyway as they always need to be seen to be making laws.
[Nobile Officium can take over in times of unexpected crisis as is, but not many people understand the concept. ie Court of Session can self-id as an English Court then trans itself back to Scotland’s Supreme Civil Court.]
All the structures are in placed already for Scots sovereignty to be excercised.
A written constitution and we’re good to go, rather than arbitrary laws imposed by professional ideologues. The Claim of Right Act made that point quite clear.
Your salad days were then, Andy. Your bus pass days are nigh. Will you publicly cut that card up on twatter if you get the urge?
Does anyone know how the Mighty Magyars got on against the three leopards.
England 1 Hungary 1
Hatuey says:
12 October, 2021 at 10:25 pm
Since I became a proud ‘blood and soil’ nationalist, my team hasn’t been beaten. And for the first time since about 1978, I am actually enjoying watching international football. I’ve even made a few quid on bets.
You’ll be robot dancing all the way to Qatar as this rate H .
In my case , since becoming a born-again imaginary blood n soilist a wart I had on my thumb has disappeared n my acne is a whole lot less blotchy .
Incredible
@Hatuey –
I would untie the English dude.
That way, we get an enthusiastic convert, and a martyr.
😉
Meg merrilees @ 10:14 pm
“the Tories have breached Article Four of the 1707 Treaty Of Union”
Maist savvy Scots fowk kent that the ToU was breached when the Brexit treaty was signed. But the irony still, of a NI Unionist having to inform the SNP that Scotland’s ToU has been breached. This follows the irony of a Welsh Labour FM telling the SNP that Scots are sovereign, not Westminster. Don’t SNP MPs know of the treaty or Scottish sovereignty? Clearly not, for if they did we would already be independent. National liberators the SNP aint.
Alf
All we need now is the Irish Taoiseach to tell the SNP what a backbone is and how to grow one
lol @ “a wart I had on my thumb has disappeared n my acne is a whole lot less blotchy”
Yo, Ian… I’d leave them both and switch to slow-mo on the iphone 🙂
I was hoping Andy Ellis would answer my question, or even Rev. Stu.
The terms of the political union were breached hundreds of years before brexit.
The Act of the Scottish Parliament that enshrined the articles of union into Scots Law has been amended numerous times by pieces of legislation laid at Westminster.
Many articles repealed, such as a permanent ledger was to be kept of revenues produced by Scotland and contribution toward England’s debt. That would make interesting reading if lawfully updated.
All the inherited freedom of movement to all points within “Crown influence” long gone. England loved the notion pre 1707. They loved East India Company more, because it arbitrarily took control of Scotland’s trade the same year.
Of course there weren’t any learned women representing Scotland in the Commons way back when to seek remedy.
PS Good luck finding online copies of the Acts of Parliament at Westminster that actually amended the Act of the Parliament of Scotland that allowed the union in 1707.
They are referred to, but for some reason aren’t available via uk gov websites…
Union with England Act 1707
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7?view=extent
Even the original as enacted has been struck from the online record for some reason.
The Claim of Right Act 1689 is published in all its glory.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1689/28?view=extent
Hoppy Humpday, Fandandls.
Perhaps the Member for Wanting To Be The Speaker can enlighten us on the details of these treaty amending Acts on Twatter etc, if he still reads btl comments.
@Hatuey 10.25 pm & 12 am
“Anyway, I’ve been contemplating nationalism and what it all means…You’re walking along a railway line and you find two guys tied to the tracks, one Scottish and one English. You hear a train coming and aren’t sure if you will have time to untie both. Which one do you untie first?”
“I was hoping Andy Ellis would answer my question, or even Rev. Stu.”
The good Reverend can doubtless speak for himself, but since you posed the Sophie’s Choice question Hatuey, it’s only fair that you tell us what you would do?
Scot Finlayson 7:10 pm
@Sensible Dave,
You wrote “Yeh we get to watch the England game on Scottish Television, like we got to watch the England game on Scottish Television on Saturday,”
That’s amazing! You get to watch top class international football for free?!
what`s the chances you lot would be happy watching Scotland being forced down your throat while your own team was playin a couple of crucial games.
You also wrote “We also get to watch the cricket which is about as entertaining as you lot playin football.”
I actually have some degree of sympathy if you watched last night’s game. Boring, negative stuff. Grealish paid the price. He insisted on trying to be creative, attack, make something happen, etc … so he was hooked off!
https://twitter.com/search?q=%22Stay%20in%20Germany%22&src=trend_click&pt=1448160820379242496&vertical=trends
Off topic thread… These are British folks talking about Germany.
Meanwhile, we have the army driving ambulances, that is when they’re not driving HGV’s, shops cannot keep their shelves full, fuel supplies have experienced shortages, energy prices in an oil producing / renewables nation are about to sky rocket, perishable crops are rotting in the field, our farmers and fishermen are facing ruin, even our sea birds are starving, Westminster foreign policy is destabilising the Far East risking war with China by sailing Royal Navy ships as acts of provocation, provoking tension with French to the point they’re threatening blockades, and threatening to tear up the Irish Protocol which threatens to bring back violence to Northern Ireland and global outrage at the UK’s infidelity. At home, the poor are facing more austerity and poverty, kids in queues at food banks, while the Tories outdo themselves to line their pockets, Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution has never been more compromised and imperilled, and Scotland has just suffered the actual colonial subjugation of Brexit forced upon it by another country contrary to the emphatic democratic will of the sovereign Scottish people…
Yet that useless fk, dunderheid Sturgeon, does NOTHING for seven fucking years, says she has time on her side to choose the best time to push for Independence, as she sits back and marvels at the next ladyboys parade while plotting who’s the next critic in line to be stitched up and sent to jail.
How I DETEST this Toom Tabard imbecile, even though she’s apparently the most influential Toom Tabard imbecile in the world.
What the fuck is wrong with you Scotland? Have you been drugged or just taken leave of your senses?
HATUEY
One solution to such quasi Jesuitical casuistry might be to attempt to stop the train.
Independent…but not quite though.
https://archive.ph/6TIbe
Britannia still keeping the right, the power to interfere in its sphere.
Effectively, why the multinational EU, warts and all, is a serious alternative to continuing British hegemony.
Ottomanboi @9.57am.
Yes this Professor Wyatt, says that economically the as he calls it NUK (meaning new UK ) would suffer without the closeness of Scotland, keeping Scotland tied to Sterling would be madness in a independent Scotland, but the Professor has no problems with it, no surprise as to whose interests he has at heart here.
No Scotland would be better served with our own currency and our own central bank, as for some sort of military alliance to protect our waters, would that include the 6,000 miles of stolen seas that Westminster appropriated from Scotland.
No a clean break is required, and remain on friendly term yes.
Hatuey asks “ Which one do you untie first?”
You really do go from the sublime to the ridiculous Hatuey. (shakes head in despair)
What exactly are you trying to achieve by perpetuating this question – particularly with regard to foisting it on others to answer?
” What the fuck is wrong with you Scotland? Have you been drugged or just taken leave of your senses? ”
Yes Breeks , drugged by 7 years of an ever-increasingly vapid and contorted personality cult , * leaders * that couldn’t lead a parched horse to water and even if they could the river has now all but dried-up .
* They * have taken our senses without our leave . Nothing will change until the people of Scotland , or at least a sufficient number of them , take their sense/s back and chase those fckn useless pretenders out of any and every position of power they currently , fraudulently hold . Let it be soon
We don’t even need to hold an indyref, and I’m sure Sturgeon knows this as well, Westminster has broken the Treat of Union on multiple occasions, from stealing of 6,000 miles of Scottish waters, to the Internal Market bill impinging on devolved matter, and a hundred other incidents over the centuries, the Treaty of Union has been broken and must be voided.
Infact the Treaty of Union wasn’t even a democratic process, it should not have legitimacy in this modern age.
All Sturgeon has to do is call back our MPs from Westminster hold a grand assembly and declare the Treaty of Union nullified. There would be nothing Westminster could do about out as the people of Scotland are sovereign and we have empowered our politicians to carry out our will, no referendum is required, no S30.
“Pro-independence Scottish MP’s withdraw from the 1707 Treaty of Union
When the Treaty of Union was negotiated and ratified in 1707, it was to be a Union of equals between Scotland and England. Scotland retained its own legal and educational system, and under the terms of the treaty the UK Parliament could not interfere in Scots Law. Scotland did not renounce its sovereignty, which had been legally established in the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320, the Claim of Right in 1689, and reaffirmed numerous times including by the UK Parliament as recently as July 4, 2018.”
“Previously, this was essentially the view held by Margaret Thatcher and politicians of all political stripes, that if in a general election Scotland elected a majority of pro-independence MP’s to the Westminster Parliament, this would constitute a mandate to dissolve the Union. This has now occurred in three general elections: 2015, 2017, and 2019. Based on this view, this incontestably represents three mandates in a row to withdraw from the Treaty of Union. Nothing in the unwritten UK constitution prevents this method to achieve independence from being employed.”
In reality we can leave this union when we want to, Sturgeon knows this, however she has put her own agenda ahead of the people of Scotland.
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/10/10/a-plan-for-actionand-the-path-to-take/
“Which one do you untie first?”
If either of them were trans, I’d untie him first … no wait a minute, I’d untie her first … er … I’d first enquire what his preferred pronoun was, then … no, I mean her preferred pronoun, or is it cis? …. oops, too late!
Ottomanboi, good answer. It’s difficult to stop trains though and your decision would surely lead to the worst outcome.
To answer Andy’s question, it’s easy for me, I’d untie the nearest guy first. I’m a blood and soil nationalist but I’m also a rational optimist and would hope to untie both in time.
Fred, just stfu.
@RoS 11.09 am
Winning a majority of MPs either at Westminster or Holyrood isn’t likely to be accepted by the international community as a mandate for independence unless the parties concerned stood specifically on that prospectus.
What British nationalists believed and said in the days before Holyrood is neither here nor there. The assumption before devolution was that the only way a pro-independence party could possibly win a majority of Scottish Westminster seats was if they also enjoyed a pretty convincing majority amongst the voting public.
As we saw in 2015, the SNP won 56 of 59 MPs on 49.97% of the vote. Even if they’d had >50% it wouldn’t have been accepted as a mandate for independence by British unionists or by the international community.
You’re right: we can leave the union when we want to, but we need recognition and that’s only going to happen if we convince the international community it’s the clearly expressed will of the majority. A referendum is only one route. Plebiscitary elections are just as valid, and given current circumstances probably more likely. The fact that people like Joanna Cherry are coming on board with the idea of more radical action than just asking permission for a S30 Order is encouraging.
We need to ensure Alba is has a plan and is fully committed to bringing about circumstances in which there is an alternative when the britnats – as they inevitably will – refuse to “grant” another referendum.
The game’s afoot when that refusal comes. Whether the Scottish people have had the sense by then to ensure the SNP are either prepared to act, or have been swept aside, remains to be seen.
“Winning a majority of MPs either at Westminster or Holyrood isn’t likely to be accepted by the international community as a mandate for independence unless the parties concerned stood specifically on that prospectus.”
Andy Ellis.
Assuming you are correct and it is an assumption at this point, then the next GE should be seen by the SNP government as plebiscite election, in which if a majority of independence minded MPs are returned to Westminster from Scotland, that signals a dissolving of this union.
Considering the mandates and the snp and Scottish government enough reasons to end the treaty of the union as being reneged upon by Westminster it should have happened by now.
due to the fact their have been a number of lawyers and trained solicitors in the snp over a long period of time and some dodgy solicitors, we can see that the sitting snp over the last number of years has became quite content in retaining attachment to the union in the same way the commissioners supposedly representing Scotland were in 1707.
For any solicitors worth their certificates of qualifications would not only have been educated in the treaty of the union for legalese purposes of correct applications in a legal or court cases.
It never ceases to amaze the uneducated ordinary Scot in Scotland whom are not fit to sit in a second chamber of a new parliament due to possible lack of intelligence that we can see the points whereby the British Parliament have broken and reneged on the Articles of the treaty of the union.
It also never ceases to amaze the uneducated Scot that Lord Cooper in 1953 in the court of sessions pointed out a a very large legal discrepancy as to wether the 1707 treaty of the union inactment should even exist.
THE convention of the three estates… [did not hold untrammelled sovereignty in Scotland in 1706 and 1707 respectively by law]…it did not hold legal autonomy over Scotland or the sovereign Scots to enter into any treaty joining Scotland with England by law.
It appears that the secrecy of negotiations surrounding the treaty in 1706 And the signing 1707, had the purpose of hiding this illegal manoeuvre to Scotland and its people.
However it was signed, and England’s parliament and monarchy agreed financially recompense to those who put their signatures to the sale, the convention of the three estates, being included.
The legal position of the Scots and the country of Scotland today remains as it was before the treaty was signed.
But for those surnames that signed the treaty of the union in 1707, they were and are in receipt of financial recompense through fraud. And today would be beholden by England to repay this back, probably with 300 years of interest.
However it could be argued that any assets or land gained since the treaty was signed could not be included in the repayments, as they belong to the Scots in Scotland,
But where are the lawyers of Scotland?
even a basic lawyer could contest the treaty of the union as fraudulent.
Even NS and JC would have read Lord Cooper in the court of sessions in 1953. In their training as lawyers and solicitors.
If the snp really had the purpose of independence of Scotland on their agenda there are many happy horrendous incidents to pick from since 1706,
That even us uneducated Scots could see as illegal manoeuvres by England’s And the construction of the British ( questionable )parliament.
James Che. says:
13 October, 2021 at 2:10 pm
Considering the mandates and the snp and Scottish government enough reasons to end the treaty of the union as being reneged upon by Westminster it should have happened by now.
Exactly. And there should now be a stewards enquiry / impeachment process into why it hasn’t.
If not now, then when? Is Sturgeon waiting until they start shooting us before she’s finally ready to get off her arse and do something?
She’s already squandered the outrageous colonial subjugation that was Brexit. She is an absolute liability to us all.
If she can’t make hay in that baking sunshine, then she needs to fk off and make way for somebody who knows what they’re doing.
What do we do?
As far as can be seen the snp have also reneged on their promise to the Scots, of if we give them a mandate they will have the authority from the people to obtain legal independence through a referendum ( their choice and method),
However after the Scottish people have given mandates to the snp, they did not acted upon them.
This is where we are, but not where we stay,
Waiting for the next election will inevitably follow the same pattern,
If we vote for the snp, nothing will be done,
If we do not vote for the snp then unionist parties will be elected, and we will become further entrenched into an illegal union.
This is not a variable choice,
This is not a legal choice of options to self determination or sovereignty of our country and people.
This is a managed strangle hold on Scotland.
There is a third option.
That is for the people of Scotland to chose a new people’s parliament to govern us.
We have the legal right to do this, even according to Westminster,
Alba have enough experience to guide us along this route and with a few good honest Scots lawyers for independence, we can follow a legal path out of the devolved government and away from the bogus treaty of the union..
Breeks.
The snp nor the devolved government are going to hold any enquiry or impeachment against themselves,
We only need to check out the AS supposed inquiry by the Scottish devolved government to know the results before the inquiry starts without telepathy.
The devolved government strangle hold and corruption of politics is there for a purpose.
But the Scots themselves have the right to self determination, the claim of right, the right to question the original setup of the treaty of the union, as the only other ( Party) country involved at that time.
The right to sovereignty,
And the right to question why the British Parliament considers itself as inheritor to a treaty of two countries.
Why the British Parliament has altered and broken some of those acts in the treaty by their actions.
Legally we have to wake up,
We have been pretty dormant as if drugged for the best part of 300 years.
James 2.56
You wrote “But the Scots themselves have the right to self determination”.
At the risk of stating the obvious, Scots “self-determined” that they want to be part of the Union. I would then observe that there is no evidence that they have changed their mind.
Is it only “yessers” that have the right to self-determination?
@RoS 1.31 pm
A majority of MPs isn’t enough on its own unless it is won by a party with a clear majority of votes cast AND a clear pre existing mandate. Both are required. The international community simply won’t recognise any purported claim based on e.g. 56 of 59 MPs being from a pro indy party when it rests on < 50% of votes cast.
The international community doesn’t care about dancing on Scots and English dancing on the head of pins about the Treaties of Union, Claims of Right or the Declaration of Arbroath. They might be colourful history and useful background information, but in the end it wouldn’t matter if none of them had ever existed in terms of gaining recognition. If there was a dispute with the britnats and they tried to “do a Madrid” on us, then the colourful background can’t hurt as supporting information, but the international community will be much more impressed with a decent majority, in response to either a clear referendum question, OR if the referendum route has been blocked by britnat intransigence, a majority in a plebiscitary election which clearly had independence as its stated outcome.
Like some others my view has long been that all pro Independence parties must now state that henceforward ALL general elections to Westminster and Holyrood will be regarded as plebiscitary by default.
Sensible Dave @3.36pm.
The “union” is unfit for purpose, it was brought about by deceit corruption in a non democratic process, and England has been impinging upon and breaking the rules of the Treaty of Union ever since.
How can Scotland be held in a union that was created in this manner in the first place, it can’t we can leave and should have dissolved the union in 2007 when the SNP first came to power. The need for a referendum, never mind a S30 is an illusion, that many Scots have bought into.
Scots never ceded their sovereignty to England, in what was meant to be a union of equals, our Scottish parliament wasn’t abolished it was just recessed, we can leave this union in an official capcity at the next GE, as long a s a majority of independence minded MPs are elected, we already have a majority of independence mind MSPs and have had so for years.
If Sturgeon and Harvie didn’t have their own nefarious agendas planned out for Scotland we could’ve declared the union dissolved on May 7th, and there’s not a thing Westminster could’ve done about it, as the sovereign will of the Scottish people, never in doubt, via its MSPs that they voted for would have returned an independence minded majority.
Thankyou Brian doon the toon read Ian Blackford speech on the link you provided. Thanks.
“They might be colourful history and useful background information, but in the end it wouldn’t matter if none of them had ever existed in terms of gaining recognition.”
Andy Ellis.
Its not colourful history as you put it, its fact, the sovereignty of the people of Scotland is fact The Claim of Right is not some historical fairytale its real, and acknowledged by Westminster, you’re buying into, as have many folk, Westminster’s game of deception, that we cannot leave this union without playing by their rules.
A prime example of this is say Northern Ireland, of which some might not know that it can hold a reunification referendum every SEVEN years, its written into the GFA. Meanwhile the Scottish Secretary of State Alistair Jack is adamant that Scotland cannot have a referendum until another twenty-five years have passed, that is just his political opinion it has no basis in law.
“A majority of MPs isn’t enough on its own unless it is won by a party with a clear majority of votes cast AND a clear pre existing mandate. Both are required. The international community simply won’t recognise any purported claim based on e.g. 56 of 59 MPs”
Again just opinion, I don’t recall Boris Johnson getting over 50% of the vote to take him to Downing street. As for the international community, I see no reason why the EU maybe not Spain, though Spain, would love to see the UK weakened wouldn’t welcome a independent Scotland, again giving its financial and economic centres a boost against London’s Square Mile.
Scotland is the elder of the two nations in this voluntary union, though Westminster is trying to keep Scotland trapped in this union using not consent but force of law, we can leave without Westminster’s consent but we need a FM who isn’t spineless and gutless at the helm to do so.
@ Sensible Dave 3.36 pm
There would be nothing to stop Scottish unionists post any future indy campaigning to rejoin the UK. Doubtless if the brexiteers had lost the referendum they’d still be banging on about leaving, and similarly lots of folk on the UK would happily campaign to rejoin if the EU were mad enough to let the UK back in. They may have a slightly different opinion in Brussels about Scotland applying to join post indy though? ?
Got an NHS no reply text yesterday my GP surgery was very short of Clinical and Admin staff and were only dealing with medical emergencies .Thats what we are dealing with.
Professor Chris Whitty (2010) re.Ivermectin:
“…The drug has proven to be safe. Doses up to 10 times the approved limit are well tolerated by healthy volunteers [5]. Adverse reactions are few and usually mild…”:
https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/202/1/113/888773
The second chamber has to be filled with the man and women from the population of ordinary people,
There should be no politician or political party any where near it to corrupt it.
Infact it genuinely would be the chamber for the people,
The corruption we have seen and the dictatorship displayed while ignoring voted mandates needed the people to have a voice,
We needed us to have a voice,
What we do not need is to fill it with is more politicians and political parties on the career make to a good pension.
We do not want to copy the Westminster system that has been instilled, implemented and imposed on so many countries around the world.
The people need to oversee politicians, not false inquiries set up for the purpose of no results.
Andy Ellis says:
13 October, 2021 at 3:45 pm
The international community doesn’t care about dancing on Scots and English dancing on the head of pins about the Treaties of Union, Claims of Right
—
What a charlatan you are, Mr Ellis.
Why would the ‘international community’ not care about the Claim of Right Act 1869?
An Act that is currently still in force.
An Act that legitimises the right of the monarch to wear the crown of Scotland, and the terms attached.
Claim of Right Act 1869 >> https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1689/28
@RoS 4.10 pm
1) “..you’re buying into, as have many folk, Westminster’s game of deception, that we cannot leave this union without playing by their rules.”
No, I’m not. I’ve never thought or said so. There are multiple ways of leaving the union. However, the current devolved administration and the SNP government in particular are wedded to the “Gold Standard” S30 sanctioned referendum route.
If they change their minds and advocate a “non agreed” referendum, they either have to challenge the britnats in court and win a case that says the devolved government is “allowed” to hold a referendum, or hold a “wildcat” referendum, with all the attendant risks of legal challenges, vetos and non-recognition that would entail.
A Scottish government with the political courage and support could alternatively pursue a different route: plebiscitary elections, withdrawing MPs and calling for a constituent assembly, declaring UDI etc. depending on the circumstances and the support it had. The only route which is realistic in the short to medium term is plebiscitary elections, and even that assumes that the SNP is somehow purged of Sturgeon and her cultists.
2) “Again just opinion, I don’t recall Boris Johnson getting over 50% of the vote to take him to Downing street.”
Perhaps so, but it’s an opinion with some basis in reality, not just wishful thinking. The international community doesn’t deal well with change, particularly cases of contested self-determination: ask the Catalans, Kosovars and East Timorese. It’s a simple category error to compare a UK government in our political system being able to govern with < 50% of the popular vote, and gaining international recognition for a declaration of independence with < 50% of the popular vote.
I agree that the EU is likely to welcome a Scottish application to join the EU and fast track it if and when received. The Spanish view will be predicated on the UK government having at least acquiesced in the process however: remember they still refuse to recognise Kosovan independence as it was the result of UDI and sets a precedent for Catalonia and the Basque Country. Whether Madrid could face down the rest of the EU if most of the rest were in favour is a different matter.
It's not just an FM with a spine and some guts we need….it's a similarly equipped electorate!
@Scott 5.35 pm
They simply don’t…whether it was from 1869 or 1689. If the majority of Scots voted for a socialist republic it’d make as much difference. The international community cares as much for the Scottish Claim as Right as it does for the Spanish government’s assertion that Catalonia needs the permission of the rest of Spain to exercise its self determination. It won’t base its decision as to whether Scottish independence should be recognised on the Claim of Right, but on the same general rights and principles that apply to any people taking into account the circumstances.
The only ones that really count in cases like Scotland, Catalonia and Quebec are having a clear positive vote, in response to a clear question and preferably not having it contested.
In the end any self respecting people takes its independence, it doesn’t act. If those they are trying to take their independence from them put obstacles in their way, there is a process to go through before the international community will agree to over turn the status quo. Recent history provides plenty of examples of how not to do it. Chippy Scots turning up at their doorstep and whining that they’re a colony and the nasty britnats won’t “give” us a referendum isn’t going to cut it.
Andy Ellis says:
13 October, 2021 at 6:16 pm
—
Domestic law is an irrelevance?
Do tell us more about that…
Are you working for the 77th, MI5 or any other ‘secret agency’?
[You’re assertions are built on foundations of sand, so that’s a fair question.]
” ask the Catalans, Kosovars and East Timorese.”
Andy Ellis.
We are none of the above we are one of the oldest sovereign nations in Europe.
“If they change their minds and advocate a “non agreed” referendum, they either have to challenge the britnats in court and win a case that says the devolved government is “allowed” to hold a referendum, or hold a “wildcat” referendum,”
I’m not advocating holding a referendum, that’s exactly want Westminster wants for us to play by their rules, wildcat, illegal, etc listen to their language, taking our independence isn’t illegal or wildcat its for us to decide in the manner we choose.
I don’t know of another treaty in the world where one party has to ask the other parties permission to leave, and so it is with this treaty.
@”Scott” 6.21 pm
Sheesh…you’re boring. Anyone who doesn’t agree with your woo-woo view is working for the 77th, MI5 or another secret agency huh?
It’ll be news to them I’m in their employ no doubt. Still, others insist I’m a Sturgeonite stooge or a gradualist and not a real Alba member, or not a “real” nationalist.
You’re just another in a long train of snivelling anonymous online grievance chimp and abusers who likes to throw their shit around in lieu of anything interesting to actually say.
I to note that there are those fighting opposing a change to a new way to do Scottish governance or that the people should participate more in the politics of their country to be more of a real democracy.
And indeed those whom tell us to forget Scottish history of no account .
Or that documents from Scotland’s past would not be interesting to the wider European communities.
Interesting also that we are compared by those same people whom tell us our past doesn’t count for tuppence,
To Catalan, whom apparently does not hold written a treaty with Spain or England.
We are being told we must recognise that we are in the treaty of the union but we should forget our past history,
That in itself is a contradiction of terminology
@RoS 6.31 pm
The international community doesn’t care about how old our nation is, only about the situation now. Most currently independent countries had no history of being independent, even though some of them have been around as long or longer than Scotland as peoples in the countries they now inhabit. They don’t prioritise who can have independence and be recognised on the basis of if they were independent in the past: if they did the UN would have about a few dozen members, not nearly 200.
We don’t need anyone permission to leave. The treaty isn’t relevant. We become independent the same way as every other country.
Andy . get what you’re saying but ….
You speak about the ” International Community ” as if it was some monolithic , immutable entity rather than what it actually is : a nebulous , ever-shifting collection of individual people , States , institutions subject to their own persuasions and pressures .
Is the International Community the same today as it was say 20/10 or even 5 years ago ( when the Catalan Ref was held )
If Scotland is not ” allowed ” a referendum – and let’s hope it’s not , at least if the screwball Cult is still in place and * leading * us into it – what other recourse would we have than to take matters into our own hands one way or another ?
If a coherent case – and Christ knows , even you wouldn’t disagree we have a solid case I’m sure – was presented to whatever body we consider the most authoritative – the UN probably , I believe there would be a good chance of it being accepted as legitimate grounds to declare Scotland Independent .
I to note that there are those fighting opposing a change to a new way to do Scottish governance or that the people should participate more in the politics of their country to be more of a real democracy.
And indeed those whom tell us to forget Scottish history of no account .
Or that documents from Scotland’s past would not be interesting to the wider European communities.
Interesting also that we are compared by those same people whom tell us our past doesn’t count for tuppence,
To Catalan, whom apparently does not hold written a treaty with Spain or England.
We are being told we must recognise that we are in the treaty of the union but we should forget our past
That in itself is a contradiction of terminology
Perhaps we are only supposed to remember history that is selected for us
Opps seems to have been a hiccup, and I posted twice, apologies for that,
I would presume legally according to Obita Dicta Lord Coopers declarion in 1953 in the Court of Sessions ,
That the old parliament of Scotland, “the three estates” did not hold sovereignty over the Scottish people or Scotland therefore were illegal in their position of signing the treaty of the union with England’s parliament.
Andy Ellis says:
13 October, 2021 at 6:32 pm
—
I sought your comment on domestic law and you ignored me, yet I’m the one that never discusses thee issues? Hahaha. What a fud.
I asked a legitimate question re ‘secreta agency et al, with qualifying reason supplied, yet you took the defensive approach as per usual with the accompanying drivel, or redundant information as it’s known. I wasn’t accusing you of anything but stupidity.
[I didn’t actually expect you to deny membership or admit such, but the question remained honestly asked.]
I must be hitting a nerve, my comments are either going awol and strangely doubled.
Or the Internet is playing up.
Anyone else having problems?
All
…. I note that no one has answered the question I posed at 3.36 …. The bit about self determination …. The bit where Scots self determined that they wanted to remain part of the Union.
You waffle on about treaties signed by lairds and lords 300 years ago and choose to completely ignore the result of the referendum in 2014 as if it never happened!
Catalonia, Quebec and Scotland are three completely different cases. They cannot be compared. The legal situation – AND HISTORY – of each of them is separate and quite different from the other two. History (including precedent, including law and legal realities that came into existence in the past, and still applies) is ALWAYS relevant in deciding legal cases, and ALWAYS relevant in all matters of constitutional law.
There is a legal basis to the UK, otherwise it is an entity that does not exist in law (including international law). That legal basis defines the entities that united did so, the terms that apply to each and to both of them, and how they relate to each other within their Union.
The European Union needs to be told – and it needs to be presented to them by competent (constitutional and other lawyers who are empowered to speak for Scotland – that it did not enquire sufficiently into that basis when it negotiated Brexit with Westminster. Instead, it made assumptions about the nature of the UK based on English propaganda that had no basis in law (which portrays the Union as if Scotland was incorporated into England, which it never was). The EU therefore ended up making various arrangements for Brexit with Westminster which went clean contrary to the terms of the Union, and which therefore – at least as far as Scotland is concerned – invalidates these arrangements and all that goes with them.
The argument then goes on to say that therefore Scotland never actually left the European Union. The entity that left the European Union was in fact the English (or maybe English and Welsh, and Northern Irish) members of the Union (although Donaldson – probably quite correctly – will be quick to point out that NI cannot be included there either). When the EU sees the legal arguments for this view, and judges in their favour, the next step will be for them and the (post-independence) Scottish government to agree that Scotland does not have to reapply for EU membership. How could she if, in fact, she (Scotland) never left it in the first place? Scotland would not be ‘re-entering’ the EU or ‘re-applying’ to join it: if her exit was null and void from the start, because assumed on the basis of a false legal premise, then she (Scotland) has always legally remained part of the EU and, from then on, simply continues to be such.
I want Joanna Cherry to argue this case. No doubt she will be aided by a good team composed of other competent lawyers, and possibly other advisers, all or most of whom she will probably be best able to handpick for herself. I think she would win the case hands down.
Scotland has to plan ahead, and start acting as if independence is just around the corner. That means planning for what happens immediately after independence arrives, or is acquired, by whatever means achieve it. This needs confidence, a bit of swagger (not too much – just enough!), and no more of all this dithering around in dizzying circles with all these ifs and buts and preposterous preconditions, and kicking cans down roads and into woe-begotten cul-de-sacs. Just be confident. Keep going forward. Don’t be deflected. Smile at the deflectors, ignore them, walk on, keep speaking up independence as if it’s almost there, conveying to all and sundry our straightforward confident that it really IS going to happen, no matter what.
That’s nothing more than the reality. Treat it as such. Act accordingly.
And plan.
And with regard to the constitutional issues – get Joanna onto the case. It’ll have to be well argued. She is just the person for it. Exactly the right person.
How unusual to see an expert in foreign affairs use terms like “international community” in the literal sense, rather than the normal codified sense… I suppose it works both ways.
We should assume the US will continue to be hostile to Scottish independence, at least until it succeeds. Biden though doesn’t straightforwardly fit into the usual mould when it comes to Britain and the so-called “special relationship”.
@ SenileDave at 7.22pm
Nobody has answered that post of yours because you’ve clearly forgotten that it’s been answered numerous times over the years.
Maybe the terms “democratic events since 2014”, and a “material change in circumstance” might help you get back in the room of reality.
But don’t take my word for it. Even Ruth knows what constitutes a mandate for a second referendum.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-simple-ruth/
Given the force’s at play behind Project Fear my Sensible fellow, 2014 wasn’t exactly kosher, and 45% was a real achievement.
All the same, I woke on the 19th cursing my countrymen.
Fear, money, and a lifetime of indoctrination won it for the baddies.
🙁
” We are being told we must recognise that we are in the treaty of the union but we should forget our past ”
Excellent point James .
We know the cliche , ” History is always written by the winners ” , by the same token the use of history , the acceptance of it’s relevance to any given present political situation , can , it appears , be determined also by the winners .
“You waffle on about treaties signed by lairds and lords 300 years ago and choose to completely ignore the result of the referendum in 2014 as if it never happened!”
Dave.
You conveniently missed out that we were lied to by the unionists in 2014, a vote for indy is a vote to leave the EU, now look at the mess we’re in. No never again, we’ll take our own future into our own hands.
Oh and its not waffle the treaty really was signed in the basement of a shop on the corner of a Edinburgh street whilst outside the public rioted. In effect the Treaty of Union was a forced treaty and universal suffrage wasn’t included so the treaty was undemocratic to begin with.
Off topic but an important report into the way life in Uk and Scotland is going right now. I am on YouGov poll panels and this report from CAB comes from one of their very recent polls.
https://www.cas.org.uk/news/over-14million-people-scotland-ran-out-money-payday-last-year
RoS
Put simply, you do not have the unilateral right to decide what did and didnt happen in 2014! The result was the result for whatever reason and the was the “self determination” by Scots.
I have no issue with another indyref, good luck to both sides, …. But this one eyed, biased revisionism that I keep reading really is just silly. Pretending you lost only because the other side were “liars” is the stuff of fools. The unionists were told that NS was going to be Scotland’s saviour …. Now we learn, from the same people, that she’s almost the devil incarnate ffs.
Robert Hughes.
More eloquently spoken than I, 🙂
RepublicofScotland.
Of course it can be said that if the three estates in 1707 were not in the legal position of holding ultimate sovereignty of Scotland and the Scots.
Not only is the treaty of the union null and void,
Therefore the question in 2014 referendum was irrelevant,
If you don’t get in the bath, there is no point in voting to get out the bath.
“Pretending you lost only because the other side were “liars””
Dave no one is pretending everyone and their dog knows that the unionist lied, and here’s a taste of the lies by the ENTIRE unionist media establishment.
If Scotland became independent we’ll need to bomb their airports-If Scots choose independence they won’t get the BBC (If only it were true)- If Scots choose independence they won’t have protection from attacks from outer space-Scottish independence will lead to the Balkanisation of Western Europe-Scottish independence means you won’t get your pension-Scottish independence means you won’t be allowed to use the pound.
There’s a million more lies that spewed out of every orifice of unionist politicians and lickspittle unionist media reporters and presenters. The 2014 indyref was the biggest onesided deceitful propaganda event, against Scotland (which included the entire Civil Service, working for the union which was meant to be neutral under the guidance of Sir Nicolas MacPherson, now working for the betrayer Sturgeon) since the covering up of the McCrone Report and the stealing of the 6,00 miles of seas.
Is it any wonder that in hindsight we now realise that another referendum will just be a rerun of the above, no thank you. We’ll declare our independence at the grand assembly in our Holyrood parliament, Westminster has no say in it whatsoever.
Now all we need is an FM whose not a treacherous b*stard.
Wull.
If Joanna cherry and all other good lawyers were to argue that the treaty of the was not legally binding due to the three estates not having untrammelled sovereignty of power to enter into a treaty with England in the first place,
That the the treaty of the union was factually a treaty between the commissioners and the three estates,
Which were not sovereign commissioners over all of Scotland and the Scots in 1706 or 1707.
We go back to reset.
Leaving only those names and families that signed the Treaty fraudulently in leu of payment back to England’s parliament.
That is all that needs done.
That would be only one ace we hold,
We also can state when and what points in the articles they have reneged on the treaty of the union that both sides are supposed to adhere to if the treaty is to considered binding by both parties.
The third fact is that the treaty of the union if held to be binding belongs to two countries, one being Scotland and one being England with Wales,
England do not get to state that Scotland cannot withdraw from the treaty if we find they have altered the original treaty making it a bi-partite treaty. ( Robert pheffers, commentary, wings over Scotland )
Or that Scotland is no longer considered as a equal entrant to the treaty of the union.
There is a whole can of worms for Scottish lawyers for independent Scotland can challenge happily.
With a good chance of winning,
However the kickstart challenge will not start with the legal fraternity, it will need the sovereign Scots and perhaps Alba to kick start these by us acting on our own behalf, as sovereign Scots,
We need to start with chosen a new people’s government, “ claim of right “
All those opposing this obviously do not believe in the claim of right or the right self determination for people. There no believe in Scotland and the rights of its people,
It would filter through as the establishment of prevention,
And as the status quo needing to retain its hold over Scotland.
What if the sovereign people of Scotland don’t want Independence?
Ayeright says:
13 October, 2021 at 9:41 pm
What if the sovereign people of Scotland don’t want Independence?
Then so be it.
But as sovereign people, it is permanently their prerogative to change their minds without external interference, without constraints on holding as many referendums as they like, or being indoctrinated through a rigged and biased media monopoly skewing the political narrative.
How will we find out what the sovereign people of Scotland want?
Well said James Che at 0925 pm & Breeks at 1004 pm. The treaty of Union is in disrepute. With Northern Ireland remaining in the SM/C/U the “UK” single market is breached . Also , how can in an equal partner “ Union” , a subservient devolved Parliament be established for one partner ( Scotland) , without the exact equivalent P/R devolved parliament being established for the other joint partner ( England) ? This renders the so called Union a farce . It’s time the REAL INDEPENDENCE political leadership called out this farcical situation out and championed the case for withdrawing forthwith from this 1707 “ Union Treaty” .
Wull @ 7.36pm I wouldn’t go holding my breath waiting on Joanna Cherry fighting and challenging WM on the Sovereignty or COR issues or even the numerous breaches of the Treaty Of Union
As Breeks has said many times she won her case on the prorogation issue with Bozo the clown , but I personally think that she has just sat back down on her arse to enjoy her salary and pension
I cannot understand people like Cherry and Salmond having been put through the emotional , mental and physical wringer by Sturgeon and her tartan taliban troops to not be interested in exacting some form of revenge on the pervert cabal yet still we have JC remaining within the NSNP although the cabal has willfully and deliberately denigrated and demeaned her character by physical threats , slanderous accusations and her publicly orchestrated sacking
Salmond was subjected to the most vile spurious accusations which could have resulted in him receiving a prison term which may have resulted in his death and still the accusations are constantly regurgitated to keep him vilified although judged innocent, He indicated that he had information that would destroy Sturgeon yet he has not produced it
Meanwhile Scotland and Scots suffer at the hands of the narcissistic lunatic
I have to ( reluctantly ) agree Twathater .
Loathe as I am to criticise two of the strongest figures in the Independence movement , their reticence in attacking the Cult head-on ,rather than ripping it to shreds and – in JC’s case – leaving the wreckage , in Alex’s case revealing everything he knows , is puzzling and frustrating in equal measure .
There may be reasons for this restraint which we are unaware of – maybe they’re waiting for the most opportune time – IMO right now , before the Cultists do any more damage , would be good – but , unlike the Great Pretender , we don’t have * time on our side *
Ayeright says:
13 October, 2021 at 10:39 pm
How will we find out what the sovereign people of Scotland want?
By referendum, a constitutional liberty which our Colonial oppressors wish to subjugate and deny us.
RoS
… you do make me laugh. You wrote “I We’ll declare our independence at the grand assembly in our Holyrood parliament, Westminster has no say in it whatsoever.”
… more importantly, you’ve made certain that the people of Scotland have no say in it.
WHy don’t you just cut to the chase and say that you will, by force, impose your politics/aims/objectives on everyone else.
If folk rise up against the undemocratic process – are you going to shoot them? I’m just trying to get the full picture here.
Breeks
… the “colonial masters”? You are taking grievance politics to a whole new level Breeks.
A quick reminder of recent history …. in 2014, the people of SCotland were asked whether they wanted Scotland to be an Independent country or remain part of the Union with Westminster remaining the senior parliament.
The people of Scotland (not England, Wales or NI) democratically, freely, chose the latter.
Now if that is what you mean Colonial masters subjugating and oppressing folk – then I think you need to have a read of a dictionary.
If the only voices you hear on the subject are here on WIngs, then I suggest that you have become “radicalised”. The loonies wind each other up convincing each other that they are oppressed and being denied their rights. Meanwhile, the results of indyref1 and general elections are completely ignored because they don’t fit with the fiction that you have created in your head – that you now believe to be true.
Its proper psycho stuff matey.
Is this all about «independence», from whom exactly, or ending a political, unitary state treaty arrangement that no longer serves the interests of one of the parties?
Viewed from the latter perspective the SNP leadership has a very good case, however, it seems rather reluctant to drive the coach and horses at full speed through the arrangement.
The British state is existentially «tired», there really is no excuse for this leisurely trot.
Cui bono?
Senile Dave says: at 9:00 am
“A quick reminder of recent history …. in 2014…”
Another quick reminder that you may want to get with the
timesfucking program and recognise more recent hisory.Dan
What more recent history would you like to cite?
The Rev, produced a graph (the Rev, not me) showing the results of all the opinion polls from before indyref1.
Those polls do not show a majority in favour of Independence.
That’s recent history matey. You need to deal with the actual facts – not some la la land version of something you would prefer to see.
The ONLY reason that Scotland is not an independent country is because SCOTS have not voted for that outcome.
As I may have mentioned before, I don’t mind whether SCotland is, or isn’t, Independent. I do mind the ridiculous portrayal of my country as colonial oppressors. Scots have what they voted for. It’s called democracy.
Final reminder that Friends of Wings is having a wee social in Glasgow this Saturday.
If you want details of venue, email me ianbhood@gmail.com
Won’t be as busy as previous events, for obvious reasons, and there’s no telling when (or if?) there’ll be another.
None of us know how much longer this space will be open to us, so, just in case it suddenly becomes unavailable, I’d like to say farewell to all the great folk I’ve ‘met’ here, and in person, as a direct result of WOS.
Looks like I’ll be going off-radar anyway, and won’t be commenting much, if at all. Hopefully this period of hiatus will be a battery-charger for a lot of us, and who knows? perhaps ‘events, dear boy’ will surprise in our favour for a wee change. God only knows we deserve a wee break, in more ways than one.
Thanks for everything Stu, and all of youse, friend or foe. It’s been a real education, with more than a few laughs and tears along the way.
As Smallaxe used to say, Love and Peace, Always.
XXX
😉
@ Sensible Dave says: at 9:38 am
“I do mind the ridiculous portrayal of my country as colonial oppressors. Scots have what they voted for. It’s called democracy.”
If you are such a democrat, then why aren’t you spending your time campaigning in and for England to implement better more representative democracy for your fellow English folk.
If you had accomplished that improvement in democratic process for your country rather than spending years of your time on here, it would mean England would have more proportional voting systems and wider electoral franchises like we use here in Scotland.
If that was the case then we all may not be in the shite situation we are in.
It’s not a great look coming on here spouting your shite until you’ve got your own house in order.
Dan
… so now you want to start dictating to the English what sort of democracy we should have?
We have the one we have – because folk are happy with it (or they haven’t seen anything they want more). We were offered Regional Assemblies, in a referendum, they were overwhelmingly ruled out.
BTW Why do you care?
Sensible Dave @ 9:00 am
“Its proper psycho stuff matey.”
You are absolutely right, colonialism leaves a very deep and damaging ingrained psychological impact on an oppressed people, in this instance the Scots. The relevant definition explains this:
“A colonial mentality is the internalized attitude of ethnic or cultural inferiority felt by people as a result of colonization, i.e. them being colonized by another group. It corresponds with the belief that the cultural values of the colonizer are inherently superior to one’s own.”
The psychologist Frantz Fanon referred to the condition as ‘a disease of the mind’, Albert Memmi the ‘depersonalized self’. This relates to some extent to what we know as the Scottish ‘cultural cringe’. Here Purves noted that Scots who, due to (Scots) language deprivation and other oppressions, develop ‘a schizoid personality’; thus a people lacking in confidence with a feeling of being more an observer in life rather than a participant, and with those holding to the supposedly ‘superior’ culture making most of the important decisions on their behalf.
So yes indeed, colonialism is “proper psycho stuff matey.”
“more importantly, you’ve made certain that the people of Scotland have no say in it.2
Dave @8.49pm.
Dave.
The Scottish public will be represented via the MSP/MP that they voted for, voting in the grand Assembly, I thought that even you would’ve realised that, apparently not.
Alf
Ah! The victimhood runs deep with this one!
Based upon the definitions and explanations you have given, I assume you have decided that it is only those that have differing political opinions to you – that are the ones that are “internalising attitudes of ethnic or cultural inferiority”?
RoS 10.28
Oh dear!
As a reminder, you wrote ” We’ll declare our independence!”
Do you not see a problem with that RoS?
The SNP as usual are bitching about Westminster this and Westminster that, without actually doing anything significant, like say leaving this union. This time we have SNP MPs railing at the now revealed plans to slash the number of Scottish MPs at Westminster, whilst England gains another ten MPs from the plans.
Sturgeon knew well in advance what Westminster intended yet her acolytes at Westminster are finger pointing yet again to adhere the gullible masses to her party. We should be independent by now Brexit should’ve been the final straw, and the polls constantly showed a 50+ support for leaving this rancid union, but no, the NEW SNP are not for Scottish independence, this we know now, no more votes for the NEW SNP for me its ALBA for me come hell or high water.
Alf Baird says:
14 October, 2021 at 10:19 am
“A colonial mentality is the internalized attitude of ethnic or cultural inferiority felt by people as a result of colonization…”
Don’t point that inferiority complex at me thank you very much, unless of course I imagined the Unionist Tory Government promising to deny the sovereign people of Scotland “permission” to hold a referendum.
That’s straight up colonial subjugation right there, by any objective criteria or description with no inferiority complex in sight. What would you call it if not unconstitutional colonialism?
Your toxic Unionist media monopoly is further colonialism, just as Holyrood’s encroachment over Scotland’s Constitutional Rights is objective colonialism in harsh reality.
The only “defective” internalised attitude I can see is amongst those subservient individuals who don’t recognise their own oppression.
I wouldn’t take your lead from known trolls either Alf, best policy is don’t feed the trolls. Their aim is disruption, and that is their only aim.
It always amazes me when people with polar opposite views correspond to each other, on sites like these, trying to change the other’s point of view. It simply will not happen and is a waste of energy and time. Accept it!
On another note I see that the major retailers are warning that there may be a shortage of toys and gifts this Xmas time.
I sniff an opportunity here and with my entrepreneurial flair now offer Wings Over Scotland readers the chance to purchase T Shirts suitably emblazoned, on the front, with some topical messages.
I offer you-
Nicola Loves a French Fancy
John Swinney is a Babe
Katie says 2+2=5
Humzah is Chutzpah
Scotland the Gullible
All adorned on the back with the flag of North Korea being the state that Mrs Murrell aspires Scotland to be.
Sizes range from small, medium, large, extra large and fat bastard size. The latter recently modelled by that fine figure of a man Mr Blackford. All shirts are lovingly fashioned from high quality cotton, grown solely from the lush cotton fields on the outskirts of Cumbernauld. Woven through the fabric is a special thread, designed by NASA Scientists, which is guaranteed to keep the wearer warm in temperatures below -25C. Especially handy for the Scottish winter which is fast approaching.
My sales team will be available to take your order by phone. All major debit and credit cards accepted. As soon as we have your money all orders will be despatched the same working day. Honest.
Alternatively, you may wish to order online. Simply log in to scamsrus@hotmail.co.uk and place your order there, As our Company received a grant of £5m from a helpful young lady at the Scottish Government’s Finance Department, I can’t remember her name but it might have been Katie, we are able to exclusively offer each garment at the bargain price of £40 each, or two for £100. Should you wish to purchase all 5, they can be yours for £300.
The garments will be suitable for wear at weddings, funerals, a night at the Bingo or simply to impress your pals in the pub.
This is a limited time offer only and you are advised to get your order in whilst stocks last.
Meanwhile Tory donor Malcolm Offord who bought his way into the house of Lords, and the Scotland Office, meaning he’ll has a say on Scotland, has agreed on his new title Offord will be known as Lord Offord of Garvel.
This is a prime example of why the Treaty of Union must be quashed, and it must be via a grand assembly at Holyrood that the union is finally crushed, Westminster must have absolutely no say whatsoever in any of it, it we the people via our politicians we elected that need to end this onesided farce for good.
Sensibledave,
Surely it is obvious to even you that England is the dominant partner in this Union, what England wants England gets.
I’m pretty sure as a little Englander, if you were in a Union with Germany, France and a host of other European nations with the perception that they were telling England what to do, even just a little bit, then there would be a massive campaign to leave such a Union.
England doesn’t like Johnny foreigner telling them what to do.
As long as Scotland is in a Union with an unkind and uncaring dominant partner who constantly interferes in her life, then because we have no self determination, we get to blame England for absolutely anything and everything.
The solution is to let go, retract your claws from Scotland, it’s time England stood on its own 2 feet and stopped being a parasite to other nations, you know it makes sense Dave.
Sturgeon must be salivating like Pavlov’s Dog right now if she’s read that the imbecile ex-Tory minister who had to resign (Matt Hancock) has landed a cushy well paid job with the UN.
After Sturgeon is finished destroying Scotland’s chances of leaving this union, and our economy is finally trashed, and Westminster has reduced Holyrood to nothing more than a talking shop, Sturgeon will fly off to sunnier shores and land a top notch well paid job at the UN, whilst we’re left wallowing in unionist shit.
So Sturgeon has given a pre-COP26 talk, at Ted Talk, she gave on in 2019 as well, Sturgeon will also head North to the Artic Circle Assembly and give a talk there as well, however Sturgeon cannot bring herself to talk at a AUOB march, that speaks volumes to me.
Meanwhile the war criminal Tony Blair’s former Chief of Staff Jonathon Powell has said that the UK cannot keep hold of a Scotland unwilling to stay in the union, and don’t we know it.
“Born to cringe?” – an interesting piece on peterabell.scot – includes a poem/video ‘I’m no havin’ children’ by Len Pennie.
Breastplate: 10:53 am
You wrote “Surely it is obvious to even you that England is the dominant partner in this Union, what England wants England gets.”
i’ll paraphrase for you … “surely it is obvious to you that there are more UK citizens living in constituencies in England than in Scotland”
…. Yes!
You wrote “I’m pretty sure as a little Englander, if you were in a Union with Germany, France and a host of other European nations with the perception that they were telling England what to do, even just a little bit, then there would be a massive campaign to leave such a Union.
England doesn’t like Johnny foreigner telling them what to do.”
Paraphrase: If everyone in Scotland who voted in the EU referendum had voted to Remain – then I, as someone who voted remain, would have had my wish. However, folk in Scotland had previously voted to remain part of the UK. They then had the exactly the same one person, one vote, as I did. When all the votes of the UK were added up I lost – and we left the EU.
You wrote “As long as Scotland is in a Union with an unkind and uncaring dominant partner who constantly interferes in her life, then because we have no self determination, we get to blame England for absolutely anything and everything.”
To paraphrase … as long as voters in Scotland vote to remain part of the UK, then each Scot has exactly the same power as I do in England.
You wrote “The solution is to let go, retract your claws from Scotland, it’s time England stood on its own 2 feet and stopped being a parasite to other nations, you know it makes sense Dave.”
… for some reason matey, the majority of Scots prefer the status quo than the thought of being governed by those that declare as Nationalists.
Why is that?
Sensibledave,
“ … for some reason matey, the majority of Scots prefer the status quo than the thought of being governed by those that declare as Nationalists.”
For some reason, even though I’ve explained this to you on numerous occasions, you fail to understand that the majority of Scots would like to live here in an independent country.
If you don’t believe me, let’s have a referendum to see who is correct. Simple really, just like you.
P.S.
Please don’t hark back to 1066, 1690, 1945 or 2014.
Sensible Dave
I’ll try to answer the question you posed at the end of your post at 12.03pm.
The reason a majority of Scots seem to prefer rule from England to living in an Independent Scotland is – they are totally unaware of how they are being ripped-off on a daily basis by Westminster.
Not enough Scots have taken the time to see past the lies of the Unionist parties and the pro-Unionist press and the Scottish branch of the English Broadcasting Corporation. If the scales ever fall from their eyes, Independence will happen.
They also have an SNP government in power which is not in the least interested in pushing for Independence.
If the Daily Record and either one of the two Scottish broadsheet newspapers was suddenly to come out for Independence, and started telling the truth about how Scotland is being held back by England – Independence would happen very quickly.
But, I canot see that happening any time soon, while I also cannot detect someone inside the SNP willing able to overthrow the Murrells and get Independence back front and centre where it should be.
But, there again, we Scots have always been our own worst enemies. Until that changes, we will be a vassal state to England.
Sensible Dave is “indahouse” with his mindfucking cognitive dissonance field and his scattergun english exceptionalism … some correctives, pepper and salt it as you wish
the 1707 UNION WAS ILLEGITIMATE from its very beginning – mobs roamed the streets of Scotland trying to find the tr41tors who had done this to them
the TREATY HAS ALSO BEEN BROKEN many times by the english – by right we should have dissolved it and reverted to the originator nations, Scotland and England
– and no, the treaty did not “dissolve” Scotland and England and replace them with a “United Kingdom”; that is utter twaddle
By the normal rules, as used by the UN, the 2014 REFERENDUM WAS WON BY YES; instead they decided to let all the fucking English living in Scotland a VOTE AS WELL AS THE NATIVE BORN SCOTS !!! – how mental is that? That is how we lost – perfidious Albion, yet again. They did a number on us – they claimed anyone who wanted to strip the English of their vote was a RACIST!
Anglos in Scotland voted for the UNION by a margin of 80:20 – they may also have fiddled the POSTAL VOTE (flip 200K postals and claim all the pensioners voted for you)
IF, “IF” you wanted to create a political union FAIRLY, which consisted of two differing populations sizea, you don’t do “one man one vote” – you need to have an upper house with equal representation (50 senators each) over a lower house based on population (like America did – the new states did not want to be ruled by “back east”); NO ONE in UK politics, even “thinkers” like BROON has suggested this. A union based upon the old celtic notion of “an annual marriage” might also be used.
IF THE BREXIT VOTE had included all the polish plumbers, was decided on a knife edge, and it subsequently turned out the polish had almost all voted one way … half of england would have went absolutely nuts and would have been calling for a re-run, with the poles excluded
– as for THE “FAIR MINDED” ENGLISH, they should all have ABSTAINED on principle from the 2014 indyref, but hey … things no englishman has ever said : “it’s really none of my business so I will keep my nose out of it”. Hypocrisy, double standards – as english as cricket on the village lawn, and buggery in the public schools.
THE ENGLISH IN SCOTLAND are overwhelmingly middle class and from the south east; this makes our middle class, “half english” and the other half, largely in sympathy with them anyway, hating their own countrymen for being horrible working class oiks. The indy movemnet is also a hidden “class war”. Since the middle class run things, day to day, and have a “force multiplier” about them, their wealth, their activism – the “point of no return” for us is not when the english are 50% + 1, it might be a mere 100K away. The middle class in general, are doing okay-to-great, and will fight anything which might upset their little picnic; as our Great Leader said “make us independent oh lord, but not yet”
RACISM is a hidden reason for many English coming to Scotland, especially the Highlands; as notorious historian David Irving once said of living in Inverness “it reminded me of England 40 years ago” (before Windrush); hightailing it to “porridge-wog” land because the green and pleasant land got a bit too “ethnic” is real brass neck. The non racist English who come here do so because they think it is “a Tartan Brighton” – Pride Marches and kilts.
The MIDDLE CLASS LIBERAL ENGLISHMAN promoting freedom of speech, free markets, human rights and social democracy … is not merely the enemy of all Scots, but the enemy of the entire human race; do not ever buy what he is selling, and if you cannot see the scam, it is because you -missed- it. Devolution, Federalism, the VOW, equal partner in the union, the Barnett formula, fiscal transfer, parliamentary sovereignty, ex regio, carbon trading, public private partnerhsip, eat yourself thinner, borrow your way out of debt. Stop listening to liars and thieves and it is alright to hate them, not for being but for their – attitudes, opinions, values, accents, condescension, sharp elbows, narcissism, entitlement, inflated self worth, shitty culture and cowardice.
Breeks @ 10:44 am
“Don’t point that inferiority complex at me thank you very much”
My apologies, the caveat should have been that not all of the oppressed people suffer from the colonial mentality ‘condition’, which helps explain why some 1.6 million of us are confident about running our own affairs.
More from that other project fear.
«COP26 could spark Covid surge in Scotland, public health expert warns» headlines the National.
The «expert» in question.
Linda Bauld whose professional specialisms are
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=4ZQ6RbMAAAAJ
A public health admin. functionary not an «expert» in virology or even epidemiology. During the Covid scam the term expert has become empty jargon.
Words emptied of meaning are symptoms of the pernicious, totalitarian virus.
A few pointers.
With the argument that Scots voted to stay in the uk in 2014.
We are not sure that the overall majority of Scots did vote this way, due to the high influx of Eu voters that were allowed to vote in the 2014 referendum, whom are now back in their own countries.
We also had quite a high number of people registered here in holiday homes that do not live here that had access to the electoral roll,
Along with civil servers employed by Westminster in Scotland.
So in reality we cannot be sure that is how the Scots alone voted.
I would support a more regulated voting population system whereby we can be assured that at least the people whom live here consider Scotland their home on a longer time scale only
Or perhaps only Scots by birth in Scotland are considered as Scots voters.
Either way, so many people voting in 2014 actually not being Scots people or defined by long term residency in Scotland. A good portion were transient voters.
It could be argued that if only Scots or long term residents of Scotland voted in 2014, the Scots would have voted yes,
Since 2014 a larger majority of fishing and farming communities have had a sharp shock as to how Westminster has treated them since 2014, as have many others who thought Westminster would look after them,
The true terminology of what Scots or long term Scottish residents voted for in 2014 is obscured behind short term residents on a large scale which deflected the accuracy of the Scots chosen to answer.
Again when we study the question asked in 2014, we observe That the wrong question may have been asked.
The question should have asked?
Do the Scots want to join to England in a treaty of union?
As this is something the Scots and there kingdom of Scotland have never been asked to vote on,
@wull – 13 October, 2021 at 7:36 pm
“The argument then goes on to say that therefore Scotland never actually left the European Union.”
“When the EU sees the legal arguments for this view, and judges in their favour, the next step will be for them and the (post-independence) Scottish government to agree that Scotland does not have to reapply for EU membership. How could she if, in fact, she (Scotland) never left it in the first place? Scotland would not be ‘re-entering’ the EU or ‘re-applying’ to join it: if her exit was null and void from the start, because assumed on the basis of a false legal premise, then she (Scotland) has always legally remained part of the EU and, from then on, simply continues to be such.”
Your post ties in with a few posts of a few days ago when people were discussing the wording of the Independence Referendum question.
As long as people like you continue to pretend that Scottish Independence is the same as being ruled from Brussels, savvy Scots are never going to vote for it.
At least have the guts to be open and honest about what you want, and clear in the language you use to describe it. Scots have not been waiting 300+ years for their freedom, only to see their country immediately handed over to new masters.
From The Scotsman.
“the same criticisms levelled at the Conservative government apply to the SNP government” resulting in “one of the most important public health failures the United Kingdom has ever experienced” according to the cross party report.
“ It is incumbent, therefore, on the Scottish Government to fully engage with the difficult questions the report poses and supply a meaningful response now.
“Avoiding this in favour of delaying the day of reckoning to the conclusions of either a Holyrood inquiry or the public inquiry should rightly be judged as a bid to evade to avoid legitimate scrutiny on the government’s biggest public health failures.”
https://archive.is/63rta
For all that, The Scotsman is going remarkably easy on Sturgeon, given the death toll. We were failed badly and thousands died as a result.
Those who didn’t question the “herd immunity” strategy at the time ought to be asking themselves some questions too; it was premised on thousands dying, unnecessarily, albeit at a rate the NHS and morgues could cope with. That was the priority, the NHS and morgues.
By going along with that strategy, Nicola Sturgeon failed Scotland badly. By not saying so at the time, by not criticising that strategy, whatever the reason, those we rely on for balanced insight, information, and guidance, failed us spectacularly too.
History will wonder where all the good guys were in March 2020.
John Main,
Regarding being run by Brussels, nothing was forced on the UK from Brussels that the UK didn’t already agree to, sanction or ratify.
The EU is far from perfect and I’m open to Scotland joining EFTA but the Ukanians shouldn’t get to blame all their ills on Brussels, especially now we are out.
Again we can observe by studious study the the commissioners, barons and titled gentry in 1707 did not hold sovereignty of Scotland or Scots.
They were not ever in a legal position to enter the Scots or Scotland into a treaty with England.
However they did sell England a bridge and got payed recompense for their fraudulent efforts,
A bit like receiving stolen goods.
James Che 1.20
Whilst many different questions could have been asked in the indyref, you really would need to be one-eyed, nut job to infer that confusion, misunderstanding, misinterpretation could have resulted from the question “”Should Scotland be an independent country?”
In your view, it was the wrong question. However, it was the question that was asked. Scottish voters answered the question. No one else.
The treaty of the union is bust,
It is in tatters.
From its very conception to the Acts that have been broken by Westminster/ British parliament,
Westminster has two options to hold its falsified position.
The first is to beat the Scots up and imprison them and the Scots politicians as political prisoners is a democratic Britain?
The only other hope left for the British Parliament now, is to offer a rigged referendum when they think their demise is near.
We have the option to not agree to the terms.
Sensibledave,
I think the question is fine, it was the choice of answers that should have been changed to Yes and Aye.
That would have solved the problem of you coming on this site to proclaim Scotland couldn’t afford to be independent and that we were just a waitress in a cocktail bar when England met us.
Pots and kettles, holier than thou and subliminal anti-Jewish racism of «New Order think».
https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/10/12/sally-rooney-and-the-bigotry-of-the-bds-movement/
Boycott English, the language of globalization, modern capitalism and wokery?
Ah me ol’ Boob dish, but I have never, ever proclaimed ” Scotland couldn’t afford to be Independent”.
Quite the reverse, I would have thought an issue like independence for a country, transcends issues like borrowing, deficits etc.
To be honest, I can’t quite fathom why most scots dont want independence – but its not up to me is it.
I rather suspect that its a combination of things … including the somewhat extreme character that is so often displayed by many “Nationalists”. You only have to read above to see what many folk here think about their fellow countryfolk.
“For all that, The Scotsman is going remarkably easy on Sturgeon, given the death toll. We were failed badly and thousands died as a result.”
Hatuey @1.27pm.
Indeed, Sturgeon made a complete pigs ear on handling the pandemic, pushing countless folk into care homes which caused many deaths, yet the unionist media give her a fairly easy time of it, of course the unionist media which vehemently opposes Scottish independence, has been given £3 million quid of Scottish taxpayers money by Sturgeon to help keep it afloat, that’s akin to Priti Patel giving a boat load of immigrants the keys to her house.
Sturgeon is in bed with those who’s job it was to destroy Scottish independence, such as Sir Nicholas MacPherson and Murray Foote.
Sensible Dave.
Thank you for you’re polite interaction, much appreciated, no sarcasm intended.
I still hold by what I suggested. The question in 2014 was a faux question,
The Scots in the past or in more recent present day have never voted to join in a treaty of union with England.
The commissioners that signed the 1707 Treaty of the Union were not sovereign in their capacity over Scots or Scotland,
Therefore acted illegally in signing the treaty of the union between Scotland and England.
This legality goes over the head of most unlearned people.
We were asked in a referendum if we wished to remain in the created entity of the uk,
First if the treaty is to be believed the treaty of two kingdom countries did not include other countries like Ireland or other dominions, that later came under the terminology of Great Britain,
In the supposed treaty we are in, of the union the two countries only by name of signature should have been on the referendum ballot paper,
The question should by default have been “Do you want to remain in the treaty of the union of Scotland and England “
The later Britain did not exist in 1707. And Scots never entered into a treaty with them.
So the question in the referendum should have been in line with the treaty of the union contract of 1707. (Which never included the Scots by default)
Second point,
The people living in Scotland in 2014 included in the referendum vote were EU nationals, english, french, my American neighbours whom voted No, I may add, etc etc.
The 2014 referendum on Scottish independence was voted on by an amalgamation of individuals from around the world, whom happened to be in Scotland at the time. This should never have been so,
This meant the result was not the voice or opinion of the Scots saying NO, but a result of opinions from around the world temporarily living in Scotland in 2014.
Sensibledave,
“Quite the reverse, I would have thought an issue like independence for a country, transcends issues like borrowing, deficits etc.”
Quite right, I’m glad to see you’ve learned some things in the years you have been visiting here.
It would be helpful to your cause to explain why Scotland should stay in this Union, oops I forgot, you don’t have a cause and you don’t care what Scotland votes for and that you don’t really know why you visit here instead of the extreme tiddlywinks website.
“The only other hope left for the British Parliament now, is to offer a rigged referendum when they think their demise is near.”
James Che.
I certainly don’t want a referendum, and definitely not one ran by Sturgeon. Another indyref would just be a rerun of 2014 with all the lies and deceit spewing out of the unionist media, its politicians and its bought and paid for so called celebs. We must learn our lesson from 2014, that it cannot be a fair fight, from the captured Electoral Commission, to IDOX, to unionist councils in Scotland refusing to participate in another vote.
no the grand assembly is the way to do it.
James Che. says:
14 October, 2021 at 1:12 pm
A few pointers.
With the argument that Scots voted to stay in the uk in 2014.
We are not sure that the overall majority of Scots did vote this way, due to the high influx of Eu voters that were allowed to vote in the 2014 referendum, whom are now back in their own countries.…
Even supposing they did, even supposing a YES vote was thumped, it’s hardly a vote of confidence in their Union that Unionists have been running scared of a second referendum ever since 2014. They’d rather sell democratic integrity down the river than face a rematch of 2014.
If they were at all confident of victory, even with Sturgeon doing her best to burn down YES movement, they wouldn’t be so scared of putting it to the test. To “allegedly” be confident of victory but not willing to put it to the test is simply cowardice.
I forget who it was said it, Barrheadboy I think, but someone quipped back in 2014 /15 that they’d respect the result of 2014 Referendum once the Unionists respected all the promises they’d made to win it.
My own perspective is similar. The amalgamation of bias in the media, the bare faced lies we were told, the breaking of Purdah rules when they were in a panic, the indoctrination, Project Fear, – all of it taken together meant that the 2014 Referendum actually determined nothing, not a god damned thing. Even those people who reluctantly conceded to respecting the vote knew very well the referendum had settled NOTHING.
The thing that puzzles me, RoS, is that very few people in positions of influence criticised anything at the time. When American health care professionals were told Britain was going for a “herd immunity” strategy they thought it was intended as a joke of some sort. Nobody thought it was a joke here.
Now you have snub-nosed retards on here saying things like “where are those who advocated for a New Zealand approach now?” We’ve to forget the death toll, for some odd reason, forget the thousands that needlessly died, forget everything.
The UK handling of coronavirus proved to me that the people of this country were capable of being talked into anything by the authorities. We have learned nothing from history’s darkest chapters. It was like a Milgram experiment and we all just did what we were told, regardless of the very obvious fact that doing so would cause hundreds of thousands to suffer and die.
You mention nursing homes and the elderly. One of the most shocking aspects of all this was the way ordinary people were basically convinced (by the media and politicians) that older people dying in high numbers was okay. Even on here you had people say stuff along the lines of “yeah, well, 400 died today but most of them were old people”, as if old people’s lives had zero value.
All of this came from the top.
Breastplate 3:25 pm
You wrote “It would be helpful to your cause to explain why Scotland should stay in this Union, oops I forgot, you don’t have a cause and you don’t care what Scotland votes for ….”.
You are correct! I don’t personally have a preference.
However, I observe that the majority of voters in Scotland keep indicating they want to stay in the Union.
On the broader issue, I have explained umpteen times why I pop in here. I have a mission to educate and inform and share my wit and insight with those that could benefit. Also, as a blessed relief to the echo chamber stuff that is repeated time and time again – to the point where, for example, RoS believes that the indyref didn’t happen, or he was robbed, or nasty westmisnster types did him over, or something.
I agree with you on everything in you’re last comment, regards not wanting a rigged referendum from uk or with NS handling it,
But may be a bit cautious on the word assembly. Until I learned more about the legalities of the word “ Assembly “ in connotations with a legel right to Assembly, gatherings and others.
It is perhaps more within your knowledge than mine, to discover wether this could take place say during pandemics, or other national emergencies of a country. Or wether the right to assemble can be banned.
Rather prioritising as a people’s parliament, which would be able to continue most of its day to day running of business.
I may have jump the gun here, and would be happy to learn more from you on the above thoughts.
Only a suggestive caution on how we frame and name ourselves above parliament
Breeks Comment at 4: 30 was meant for you.sorry I missed you’re title.
“But may be a bit cautious on the word assembly. Until I learned more about the legalities of the word “ Assembly “ in connotations with a legel right to Assembly, gatherings and others.”
James che.
The assembly idea the gathering of our MPs and MSPs at Holyrood was floated by Craig Murray and Alex Salmond as a way out of this odious union. There’s nothing technical or vague about the idea, call back our MPs to Holyrood, hold a vote MPs and MSPs, if the majority of them vote to leave this union declare independence there and then.
Everyone will have been represented in the vote for we the people democratically elected the MPs/MSPs voting at the grand assembly.
Regarding the football I am told Scotland were on SKY. Its probably a contract thing for big money. And on BBC Red Button changes to the the number of Scottish Westminster constituencies because of population changes mean Scotland will lose two MPS England will gain ten. Prof Linda Bauld has warned the COP event in Glasgow could be a Covid disaster for Scotland.
Breastplate, Breeks, et al
I rather suspect one of the reasons for the general er, negative views with respect to things “English”, is the recognition that a majority of folk in England (not me though) decided they wanted out of the EU.
They said they wanted their freedom, they wanted to make their own laws, they wanted to run their own affairs and they didn’t want a distant parliament running the show – and they didn’t seem to care that they might be a few bob worse off as a result, or have to show a passport going to France, or lose the right of free movement in the process.
They did it anyway – clearly, for them, it was the principle of the thing?
Is that the spirit that you looking for your fellow Scots to show?
Breeks .
I must admit democracy has a different meaning when sitting in the arms of uk governance to the claim of right, or the right of a people and nation to have self determination which I may add Britain signed up for in its day.
(Refusing the other half of a treaty holder) permission to vote on wether they wish to remain in the treaty does make the uk seem like a treaty hugger rather than a tree hugger,
It reminds me of Gollum in Lord of the rings.
ITS MINE ……Alllllll…..Minne.
James
I’ll ask again. Is it only Yessers that have the right to self determination?
Dave @5.11pm.
Dave I don’t believe you even know the meaning of your self-determination comment. No voters wouldn’t touch that comment with a barge poll.
Here it is.
self-determination
[?s?lfd?t??m??ne??(?)n]
NOUN
the process by which a country determines its own statehood and forms its own government.
“the changes cannot be made until the country’s right to self-determination is recognized”
synonyms:
autonomy · independence · self-government · self-rule · home rule · self-legislation · non-alignment · freedom
I am of the mind that I wish ms Sturgeon would hold a referendum on the GRA and HCB and open up the franchise to people or groups of people worldwide who have a vested interest in the outcome of a GRA vote , the vote if passed would ensure a better quality of life and a more civic understanding of the day to day pressures that people who are sexually confused and oppressed would be able to relate to , it may also encourage people from other countries to emigrate to Scotland and would go a long way to address the long established shortage of labour and the low population numbers
It could also lead to a stratospheric rise in our tourism industry with lots of our Scots born and our NEW SCOTS joining in civic pride and launching a challenge to Bangkok to see who has the most and nicest LADYBOYS , that would save certain politicians from all parties from having to leave the reservation
IMO if they can adopt a franchise for one situation they can surely carry on that tradition for others , and who could possibly complain about a country that has civic nationalism at its very heart and who believes in equality for ALL
RepublicofScotland.
It is excellent that AS&CM are thinking outside the normal politics box. And we need a good few more like them including lawyers and legal fraternities.
But here is my reasoning for caution.
When the mp and MPs we have sitting at present, have changed from independence supporters to marigold supporters.
Withdrawing that lot from Westminster and having a vote of those MPs and MPs would guarantee we stayed in the union.
We have never seen them make a move to join marches or make genuine defining legal challenges on Brexit, breaking the act of the treaty of the union, etc,
They are chameleons to being spoon fed by the bigger branch office.
They have changed their coat to many colours.
AS & CM must by now realise that the words honest or nice cannot not related to the present sitters that cheat to hang on to pretty pensions and freebies, the right finger in the glove of the British state in smaller branch office.
Do any of us trust the snp? the greens, ? the Tories, ?the Labour Party? In the devolved government to vote for independence for Scotland if they can be bribed with ermine and gold.
Sensible Dave.
What are you actually asking and in what context,
I do not remember saying anything in relation to you’re question, so you will have define what you would hope to put across,
I dont care about jobs, free speech and all that shit…but i so lurv planet Earth.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/19647924.cambo-youth-activists-confront-shell-ceo-ted-talk/
Another case of the unacceptable other.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/19647694.snp-msp-john-mason-attended-anti-abortion-vigil-glasgow-hospital/
Thou shalt not have opinions opposed to mine…or else i’ll get hysterical and break down and it’ll all be your fault, so shut up!
Confused @ 12.52
‘kin brilliant post . 100% nailed
RoS
… you mean the sort of self determination where folk vote in a referendum vote to decide how they want their state to constituted and governed?
… you mean just like indyref?
Losing a democratic vote sucks, we’ve all experienced it. But democracies function on the basis of the consent of the losers. You don’t like the result and refuse to accept that you were democratically outvoted … that’s the difference.
“But here is my reasoning for caution”
James Che.
We’ve been cautious long enough, its time for action, independence will never be given we’ll need to take through being proactive.
“Do any of us trust the snp? the greens, ? the Tories, ?the Labour Party? In the devolved government to vote for independence for Scotland if they can be bribed with ermine and gold.”
No I don’t trust the SNP or the Greens at present, however with a strong willed indy minded SNP FM such as we had in Alex Salmond at the helm, they’ll keep their mouths shut, SNP MSP and MP troughers will do as they are told to keep their generous salaries, just as they are doing now.
As for the Greens they’ll jump into bed with anyone who has power so they’ll be onboard, the Tory, Lib/Dem and Labour branch offices at Holyrood are offshoots of London HQs, they are snakes in the grass spies in the Holyrood camp so to speed they’ll never come around to Scottish independence, because if they did, their London bosses would replace them in a jiffy, they are effectively registered agents of the state at Holyrood.
Sadly Sturgeon in my opinion is also a snake in the grass, a British state asset in the top job, her modus operandi isn’t one of delivering Scottish independence, her unwelcome and unpopular GRA, and HCB policies are designed to divide Scotland not unite it, and the attempt to falsely imprison Alex Salmond who has Scottish independence at heart, and has form on delivering an indyref, was an attempt to further damage the indy cause.
Under Sturgeon’s tenure the COPFs has been turned into a witchfinder generals office, it remit to seek out indy bloggers and those who oppose the SNP’s unpopular policies and prosecute them firstly using Police Scotland, and then the compliant judiciary that put Craig Murray in prison the only person to be jailed for jigsaw identification and in this case there was no clear cut evidence that he did so, only a very keen reading of the law by a judge who is now pushing for more juryless trials in Scotland.
@Hatuey – 14 October, 2021 at 1:27 pm
“History will wonder where all the good guys were in March 2020.”
A few of them were on here Hatuey, pointing out that just like with every other infectious disease since the dawn of time, the only exit was herd immunity.
And here we are now, largely escaped from the worst excesses of Covid, thanks to herd immunity.
I am not one with much time for either BJ or NS, but even I will accept that they are not to blame for Covid. You need to look much further afield, half way around the world in fact, to find the culprits.
It is just more evidence of a deluded inability to face hard and unpleasant facts that you still choose to blame innocent parties for Covid while allowing those who caused it a free pass.
Aye everything is just peachy eh ? ,
Nothing major going on ? ,
just a healthy discussion about a event that won’t happen or be decided for years and that’s of course if the only party that that might be capable of organising a Indyref2 can be forced against their will to acually call one .
A few people on here are leading the distraction exactly the same way the media are ,a method that’s practiced by our media and every other outlet all over the world and it works , the organisation that was in overdrive during 2014 and the people it employs haven’t went away they have just focused on something that requires immediate attention and what’s the best way of closing down discussion ? . Ignore it , don’t mention it ,keep the discussion focused on , well focused on anything that doesn’t involve the one thing that’s been prominent for the best part of 2 years .
Sometimes It’s like watching a sinking ship and the crew are talking about painting the fkn lifeboats , anything apart from the approaching fkn rocks , are all you people fkn brain dead ? This winter will be used to cover the biggest deception in history and the topic is the number of painters that get a vote on the colour of the fkn boat .
@Robert Graham
“This winter will be used to cover the biggest deception in history and the topic is the number of painters that get a vote on the colour of the fkn boat.”
Happy to admit to being deceived. I don’t know what you are on about.
In other news…
Been catching up on my recorded “Pointless” programmes (now up to 20th September), which raised an interesting question.
Why are there so many purely black and white creatures?
We have magpies, penguins, killer whales, raccoons, skunks, giant what-not moths and so on.
Why has evolution made black and white so important?
Brian Doonthetoon says:
14 October, 2021 at 9:06 pm
In other news…
————–
Camouflage dear Brian camouflage’s. Predator’s don’t see them in dark.
What predates a killer whale?
And you’re gonna say, nothing, because the camouflage works!
https://www.infowars.com/posts/police-scotland-characterize-calling-a-woman-nice-buying-her-dinner-as-pre-cursors-to-sexual-violence/
Apparently if you look at a girl on the bus or say nice to a girl now you are a rapist. Isn’t Scotland swell. I’m so proud Scotland is making American news for all the right reasons, NOT. (That was a not joke, not sure if it works in text).
With regards to indyref2 debate. Would it not be easier to push for SVSL? Scottish Votes for Scottish Laws? That way Scots MPs can vote on a declaration of independence without English MPs being allowed to vote on it. EVEL already happens even if they did scrap it. Only fair Scotland gets a turn at it. They had about 6 years of it. Our turn.
Brian Doonthetoon says:
14 October, 2021 at 9:46 pm
What predates a killer whale?
Brian Doonthetoon says:
14 October, 2021 at 9:48 pm
And you’re gonna say, nothing, because the camouflage works!
——–
Lol well yes! But they’re an apex predator themselves. Humans are probably above them- although not in a square go like.
Sharks are known to attack them, but usually the shark will come off worst barring a bit of luck.
Dave Richie
Re the football, you are right it is all about contracts and money. So is it not a bit odd that Sky with all its cash hasn`t secured the much more lucrative England games but has instead gone for the much less profitable Scotland games.
I am convinced that the plan is for anything Scottish to be buried less it in any way promotes independence. This country has no proper dedicated Scottish television channel. Why???
In Yorkshire there is Leeds tv which is proper professional channel concentrating on news from Leeds and Yorkshire while also showing American programs etc. Its a city and we are a country.
The part time television in Scotland is an outrage and is deliberately designed to be parochial and demeaning.
The Scottish public are in a coma or they they just don`t care anymore.
John Main @ 1.22 Please note that ‘Independence in Europe’ was the clearly stated objective of Alex Salmond and the SNP in 2014. It wasn’t a new idea then (and isn’t now): the SNP had adopted it as its official policy many years beforehand, and always promoted it. That was the prospect held out to us at the time of the Independence referendum. All YES voters in 2014 knew that, and most (not all, but most) were fully behind it.
David Cameron and the Better Together ‘No’ Campaign also knew it, and they knew it was a winning idea. That’s why they did so much to make it seem as if an independent Scotland would automatically be excluded from the EU. Including getting dud European politicians to spread the same nonsense – the guy from Portugal whose name I forget, whose job was coming to an end but who wanted Cameron’s support so he could hang onto it or get some other thing to do which would keep his pocket healthy.
Anyone who thinks the member states of the EU are simply ‘ruled from Brussels’, without having any say in the formulation of policy or any power of veto, obviously knows nothing at all about the EU, or the way it works. In fact, anyone who says things like that has probably (almost certainly) swallowed hook, line and sinker all the simplistic, anti-European propaganda spread by Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings before, during and after the Brexit (misinformation) campaign.
It is nonsense to say that the members of the EU are not independent nations. If they weren’t, none of them would have a seat at the United Nations, or on the many other international bodies. If Scotland were a member of the EU in her own right, she would sit on all such bodies. At present she doesn’t, because, on account of the Union, and despite the limited powers that have been devolved to Holyrood, she is ultimately ruled from Westminster (which has, of course, a built-in English majority which invariably outvotes the far fewer – and about to get still fewer – Scottish MPs).
So if you ask me whether I would prefer Scotland to be a member state within the EU or, alternatively, to be ruled by Westminster, it’s a no-brainer – the answer is obvious. All this has little or nothing to do with courage, and everything to do with common sense.
The EU is not perfect, for sure. It may indeed be true, as has been said, that even in 2014 one-third of SNP members were opposed to (or not fully convinced of) the SNP’s ‘Independence in Europe’ policy. That means two-thirds of them were convinced, and don’t forget actual SNP members were far smaller then than they became post-referendum (when they rose dramatically, only to decline again when began to see through Sturgeon, who despised so many of them and drove them away with some of her behaviour and her kick-the-can-continually-down-the-road inertia).
The EU, for all its faults, remains a concert of independent nations, and has all kinds of mechanisms for fostering authentic cooperation between them, and freedom for each. Most Brexiteers never informed themselves about this, and never understood it. Instead, they listened to the lies the top pro-Brexit campaigners fed them.
The EU, thankfully, is nothing like the United Kingdom in its structures and internal ways of working. Sure, there are disagreements among the member states, and there are and will be battles to be fought there too. One battle that will not need to be fought, however, is that of one nation in the Union dominating and exercising ultimate control over any and/or every other nation in it. Whatever else it is, the EU, thankfully, is NOT the UK.
John Main: “…just like with every other infectious disease since the dawn of time, the only exit was herd immunity.”
Haven’t you heard of say small pox? (wiped out through a global vaccine program)
Of course, there are other diseases we have successfully mitigated against without vaccines.
Another one of those angry, shouty, dullards that knows everything — common sense, right?
Brian Doonthetoon says:
14 October, 2021 at 9:06 pm
Why has evolution made black and white so important?
I dunno is the short answer, though most camouflage is designed to break up an outline and confuse recognition.
That was the thinking with Dazzle camouflage painted on ships in both WW1 & 2. It’s effectiveness was not proven, but probably because radars and detection equipment had moved beyond visual recognition.
There are better camouflages, like the pictures you see of owls or moths against a tree bark, which perfectly match the background, but the camouflage fails instantly if it moves.
I think black and white camouflage is less about not being seen like ‘static’ camouflage, and more about screwing with depth and edge perception and throwing off targeting for a critical second or so for a predator to make a kill or a prey animal to escape. The black and white / broken edge takes the brain / eyeball more time to process.
If you look at the Oryx or Okapi, it only has black and white stripes on it’s arse and back legs, where pursing predators are most likely to be processing target information as they try to “make the tackle” and bring it down.
“Wull says @ 1029 pm “an eminently articulate and perceptive post . Basically England’s ruling classes couldn’t bully & dominate the EU as they currently do as regards the “ United” Kingdom . Consequently , as they were unable to “ run the show” they left and “ took their ball with them” Democracy is not for them ( never has been) , back to being “ Imperial masters “ of “ Greater England”
Wull @ 10.29
Good post and defence of the ” Independence within EU ” policy , one I – broadly – agree with .
As you say …..the comparison between the constraints on Scotland via the Union v the ( hypothetical ones ) via EU membership do not bear scrutiny : they are not seriously comparable
That said , it is still very much informed/governed by a privileged , top-down , entrenched Neo Liberal worldview and populated by a high % of Euro Troughers more concerned with enjoying the generous salaries and * perks * than doing anything significant for the people they’re supposed to represent .
It also has excellent thinkers and genuine advocates for serious reform like Yanis Varoufakis within it and – with more like him – COULD , eventually , live-up to it’s ideals of fair-minded cooperation and solidarity whilst acting as a bulwark against the predations of Corporate Capitalism .
Long , long way to go before that is a reality , but as the cliche has it…..” better to be inside looking out than outside looking ( wistfully ) in .
* Probably *
Identifying the pandemic origin isn’t the world priority:
“Covid: New WHO group may be last chance to find virus origins”:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58905945
RE: camouflage.
A reasonable explanation, Breeks.
Jamie 9:55 pm
Sorry mate, I really dont mean to be condescending, but your comment shows how out of touch and completely misinformed, many people are on the subject of EVEL.
You need to understand that EVEL laws are different in the HoC only in that there is a stage where English MPs can have a debate on their own, without the rest of the House there.
Other than that, issues declared as EVEL laws progress in the same way as any other.
Something only becomes law – after full votes, by all MPs, representing all parties and constituencies. EVEL laws can be thrown out by the House, just like any other law.
So James, you need to ask yourself, how did you get this so wrong?
Scotland has Holyrood (where English MPs can’t vote on anything), England has EVEL, where they get a “talking shop” stage, where they can then subsequently be outvoted by all MPs.
Only a one-eyed, brain dead zealot, could interpret that as being “unfair” to Scotland.
So now we have Pete Wishart complaining that a Tory has bought a peerage and a cabinet post in the Scottish office that allows him to influences what happens in Scotland, Wishart forgets that he wants to be the Speaker of the House of Commons, is there really any difference between Offord and Wishart, both are troughers who want to influence what happens in Scotland.
The only difference I can see between them is that Offord is openly a nasty lying bag of shite, who wants to keep Scotland in this union, whereas Wishart is deceptive about it.
The biggest f*ck up in years Brexit, has saw the English government do a U-turn on EU HGV drivers, though so far only twenty or so drivers have been stupid enough to come back to the UK and pass the processing test. Now the English government wants to allow 800 EU butchers back in to the UK for seasonal work as thousands of pigs are due to be killed and burned as they are to big for market.
One wonders what else those numbskulls at Westminster will do a U-turn on with regards to the EU, they’ll be no U-turn by Sturgeon on pushing her unpopular GRA policy, as for independence there’s as much chance of that happening under Sturgeons tenure as there is of the English government attracting a 100,000 HGV drivers to the UK.
Yet again the SNP wheels out another mouthpiece to tell us how bad life is due to Brexit, this time its Business Spokesperson Stephen Flynn.
Yes we know, we’ve know since before 2016 that Brexit would be an unmitigated disaster, and Sturgeon knew as well and did f*ck all to save Scotland from its impacts, though she did try and save England from itself.
Meanwhile Shettleston MSP John Mason has been attending a anti-abortion gathering outside the Southern General hospital in Glasgow aka the QEUH hospital, Mason whose constituency is on of the poorest in Scotland said the gathering was vigil, but in reality it must go down as protest.
Stick to helping your constituents Mason, women who choose to have an abortion have it tough enough without nutters like you staring at them outside the hospital before they go in to make the life changing choice.
The SNP have already made women and girls lives tougher with their coming GRA policy, now we have a SNP MSP protesting outside a hospital with women in mind.
Cherry picking.
O Palestine….why is there such a preoccupation with this «question»? Copts in Egypt, Berbers in the Maghreb, the seeming resurrection of Islamic State in Syria, the travails of my dwindling ancient community in Turkey and Iraq, systematic «cancelling» through demolition of Armenian and Greek religious sites in Turkey, the ongoing wars in Yemen, the Ethiopia-Eritrea genocidal conflict to cite but a few merit little attention it seems.
This too https://www.aljazeera.com/where/south-sudan/
Both Palestinian entities are mired in corruption, not unusual for the region, but receives little comment and the money and virtue signalling tears continue to flow into the great mouth sustaining the problem.
RoS
… you are like a broken record mate!
I get that you didn’t want to leave the EU. However, somewhere in your head, there must surely be a tiny area of “reasonableness and logic” that allows you to accept that not all problems are “because of Brexit”?
From the transport industry web site: “A recent report by Transport Intelligence highlighted the fact that Britain is not alone in Europe when it comes to HGV driver shortages. Data from 2020 shows Germany short of 45,00-65,000 drivers, while in Poland, whose population is just over 50% of the UK’s, the number is almost 124,000 – noticeably higher than the 100,000 UK figure referred to by the RHA”.
Have a quick search online RoS. Find the pictures of the container ships all anchored outside ports in the USA because they cant dock, because the ports are full and the supply chain can’t cope.
It is probably/likely that our situation has been exacerbated by Brexit, but you swivel eyed ramblings just demonstrate your confirmation bias.
There is a world wide supply chain problem as a result of demand following the pandemic RoS.
Germany, Poland, USA – didn’t Brexit mate. You come across as a bit of a loonie.
Just some thoughts.
Christ its going to be unbearable living in Glasgow come next month with the city flooded by protestors dignitaries and 7,000 police officers from England. In addition we’ll have secret service personnel from the four corners of the globe armed and staring at Glaswegians from behind newspapers on street corners.
Add in that half the roads in the city will either be under certain restrictions or shut, along with helicopters buzzing overhead 24/7 it will feel like Glaswegians are living on an army base for the few weeks that COP26 is in the city, I haven’t even taken into account the dignitaries jaunts around the city to take in the sights that will have an armed entourage that will clear their way to where ever they want to go.
Its not s if any of the countries will meet their CO2 reduction targets after the COP26 is over, the Paris meeting proved that. I can only hope on a domestic matter, that Sturgeon isn’t allowed to showboat at the conference, if not, that will annoy her ego more than Alex Salmond being found not guilty.
RoS
… from the cityam web site:
“The UK has muscled out its rich nation rivals to top the table for economic growth this year.
Britain’s economy will expand 6.8 per cent this year, a faster rate of growth than any other G7 country, according to the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
Despite trimming its forecasts by 0.2 percentage points, the UK will grow nearly two percentage points faster than the Eurozone and 0.8 percentage points quicker than the US.”
….. you can choose to completely ignore stuff like this RoS, that is your right. You can freely use phrases like “unmitigated disaster” if you wish.
Similarly, I can observe that you really don’t know what you are talking about. Facts versus Ramblings and all that.
I would suggest that you perhaps need to broaden your range of reading?
City A.M., the self-styled ‘London’s Business Newspaper’ is hardly built on a granite foundation of objective reality either.
Cenchos
OK Matey … give me the correct numbers from your ultra reliable, non partisan source.
Or is it that you don’t have any?
Is it that the data doesn’t fit your warped narrative – so it MUST be rejected? The data is from the IMF ffs!
None so blind, and all that …
Sensible Dave says:
15 October, 2021 at 10:47 am
Cenchos
————-
So do you think they’ll be a couple of UK pounds sterling to pay off some debt by any chance?
Can’t wait till February 22 – tik tok
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicspending/bulletins/ukgovernmentdebtanddeficitforeurostatmaast/march2021
Cenchos
….
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/WEOWORLD
Knock yourself out matey!
I wont hold my breath waiting for an apology.
Robbo
I take it that accept the data and accept, given the data, that the UK economy is not an “unmitigated” (synonyms: absolute, unqualified, complete) disaster” and that RoS is an idiot?
… And that you now want to move to the subject of borrowing?
You really need the UK to do badly don’t you. You really want an unmitigated disaster don’t you.
Then, you believe you might be better placed to achieve Independence for Scotland?
…I’m not sure that is a strategy that is going to happen, is logical, or going to work fella!
There seems to be a distinct lack of “brains” around today here on WIngs.
The Russians tried it. Made everyone poor – to try and make them grateful for the stuff they received from the state.
Anyway, I’m off for break for a few hours – but I’ll be back to see what rubbish you have been spouting.
Sensible Dave says:
15 October, 2021 at 10:59 am
Cenchos
….
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/WEOWORLD
Knock yourself out matey!
I wont hold my breath waiting for an apology.
————
See if you manage to work the wee cursor and go left to that wee poor country you said couldn’t survive without the UK a 100 years ago IT’S NEARLY DOUBLE THE UK.
Fill yir boots Dave- so we’re on a par with Burkina Faso , Cote d Lvoire, Uzbekistan- well done!
RoS: “I can only hope on a domestic matter, that Sturgeon isn’t allowed to showboat at the conference…”
Get ready for Global Sturgeon, the voice of progressive America…
She’ll be on TV and sticking her fat little working class nose in at every opportunity.
And I can guarantee she has spent several thousand pound on new outfits, including a little green suit of some sort.
She’ll go down a treat. Anyone that openly sells their country down the river, as she has, is going to be well liked by that shower.
Setting aside the absence of real power, brains, and a top lip, she’s basically Tony Blair in a skirt.
Don’t be surprised if she commits to making us eat nothing but insects by 2023. That’s the sort of attention-grabbing shit she does. We pay the price.
Robbo
Oh dear! the brain is small, nasty and full of “grievance” in this one!
Its like you will only be happy when your country is doing poorly.
Hey ho!
Sensible Dave says:
15 October, 2021 at 11:21 am
Robbo
Oh dear! the brain is small, nasty and full of “grievance” in this one!
Its like you will only be happy when your country is doing poorly.
Hey ho!
————
Just giving you the figures Batman. Hey ho !
Sensible Dave
So you never answered the question. Will there be a couple of pounds UK sterling to pay some debt off?
Scotland’s oil and gas and renewables won’t last forever you know!
Robbo
Hey mate, I’ve spent time in the past here, trying to have reasonably sensible conversations with folk.
Before I answer, could you do me a favour and answer a couple of questions?
Are you aware of any global economic impacts that might have affected borrowing in most developed nations over the last eighteen months?
In the current economic climate, what % of GDP do think should be applied to reducing borrowing?
… maybe I will agree with you and we can avoid a scrap.
So that everyone can see the real statistics, (Easy to follow), here are the IMF datasets for the UK, EU and Germany:
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/GBR
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/DEU
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/EU
Senseless Dave says:
“The UK has muscled out its rich nation rivals to top the table for economic growth this year.
Britain’s economy will expand 6.8 per cent this year, a faster rate of growth than any other G7 country, according to the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
Despite trimming its forecasts by 0.2 percentage points, the UK will grow nearly two percentage points faster than the Eurozone and 0.8 percentage points quicker than the US.”
————————-
UK 6.8 % is nearly as much as Romania with 7 %. That’s nice. 😉
6.8% sounds a lot but from what baseline, e.g. Covid.
UK 2020 minus -9.8% 2021 plus 6.8% = diff. – 3.0%
EU 2020 minus -5.9% 2021 plus 5.1% = diff. – 0.8%
DE 2020 minus -4.6% 2021 plus 3.1% = diff. – 1.5%
BTW Dave, thanks for letting us keep all the lorry drivers who won’t be going back to the UK, they are helping us to cope better with the transport difficulties here. Got to keep those silly little shelves full..!
Not forgetting the animal vets and butchers that we need to avoid having to cull thousands of pigs, cows etc..
Oops, nearly forgot the doctors, carers and nurses missing from the 4 NHS services in the UK. They seem to be happier now working where they are appreciated.
As for the academics, teachers, researchers, oh dear, where have they all gone to..?
Hospitality, restaurants, hotel folk… am I missing someone??
Brexit, the biggest fuck up in modern UK history.
Graf
…could you do me a favour and let robbo and Ros know that the IMF figures are correct please.
Its hard to defend a position where my figures are both right and wrong – depending upon who is reading them.
Once you have an agreed position, I will respond. 🙂
Asking questions seems to be flavour of the week. Here’s one doing the rounds, with various versions:
What’s the difference between a flying pig and Nicola Sturgeon?
Graf Midgehunter says:
15 October, 2021 at 12:52 pm
Brexit, the biggest fuck up in modern UK history…
First “Country” in history to impose Economic Trade Sanctions upon itself…
@wull – 14 October, 2021 at 10:29 pm
“Please note that ‘Independence in Europe’ was the clearly stated objective of Alex Salmond and the SNP in 2014. It wasn’t a new idea then (and isn’t now): the SNP had adopted it as its official policy many years beforehand, and always promoted it. That was the prospect held out to us at the time of the Independence referendum. All YES voters in 2014 knew that, and most (not all, but most) were fully behind it.”
Noted, and I also note that you will never, EVER, dare to question if that was a bad call. Just as you will never, EVER, even to this day, ask if an honest campaign for a free, independent, sovereign Scotland could have got a majority for Yes. My own view is that it could have then, and still could now.
You are so enthralled to the European dream that you are prepared to put Scottish Independence in second place behind it.
“It is nonsense to say that the members of the EU are not independent nations.”
They will have control of their own borders then. Freedom of movement must be a myth put about by Brexiteers and Tories.
“One battle that will not need to be fought, however, is that of one nation in the Union dominating and exercising ultimate control over any and/or every other nation in it.”
Indeed, it is two nations, France & Germany. France gets freedom to pursue its agricultural interests, which is why everybody who ever goes there marvels at the range, diversity and quality of its artisan food stuffs, and muses over how this could be possible, given a supposed EU-wide “level playing field”.
Germany gets to peg the Euro at the optimum rate for its export industries, thus growing ever more rich, powerful and influential. Smaller countries are unable to devalue their currencies, so in fact subsidise Germany whilst their own populations dwell in poverty and unemployment. Think Greece.
And if Germany decides, unilaterally, to import 1 million new citizens, then thanks to freedom of movement, every other EU country does too. And if Germany decides to close its nuclear power stations and import Russian gas instead, then every other EU country must adjust to this new geopolitical and economic reality.
“Whatever else it is, the EU, thankfully, is NOT the UK.”
True. However unlikely it may seem, the people of Scotland still have a democratic say in the makeup of the UK HoC. They never had much idea of what was going on in Brussels, let alone any say.
Sure, the middle classes had a great time with cheaper, easier holidays, dirt-cheap plumbers and joiners, and complication-free gap year travelling for their university-attending offspring. All the working classes ever saw was dwindling wages and spiralling rents as the “race to the bottom” caused by imported low-cost workers priced them out of work and affordable accomodation.
Hatuey says :
“[Sturgeon will] go down a treat. Anyone that openly sells their country down the river, as she has, is going to be well liked by that shower [world leaders attending COP26].”
That’s the world in a nutshell, that is.
Most people on this site realise that the Scotland presented to the world is an illusion maintained by media and judiciary control, that behind the screen the good are punished and the corrupt are promoted, that the truth in most aspects of our government is the exact opposite of what it seems. If the majority can be so comprehensively bamboozled in their own back yard, how much easier to do it in international affairs?
Face facts folks. There are people in this world with the power to control ALL and ANY narrative for as long as they want. No lie is too big when it is repeated 100 times a day by TV, radio, newspapers, film, Facebook, Twitter, Google search results, and your friends and family who have fallen for it.
That’s the lesson we should learn from Sturgeon. Suspect EVERYTHING you are told.
It looks like every organ grinder and their monkey will be at COP26 next month, even Jeremy Corbyn the socialist English PM that never was,(the same media machine demonised him, successfully, as it did the 2014 indy movement) will be attending his own made up COP26, where he’ll give three speeches in Glasgow and one in Edinburgh.
Wisely China’s premier Xi Jingping has said he will not be attending the circus in Glasgow come November, it wouldn’t surprise me if the West attempted to arrest him as Canada did with a CEO of Huawei on trumped up charges. Yesterday some ex-MEP from the UK urged the Scottish government to arrest the Iranian premier if he shows his face at the COP26, don’t be surprised if other notable dignitaries fail to show at the COP26.
Just read the breaking news that Conservative MP Sir David Amess has been stabbed multiple times whilst holding a surgery.
No doubt details will emerge over the next few hours and one hopes Mr Amess will survive and recover from this awful attack.
From a democracy perspective, and given the previous murder of Joe Cox along with other incidents I do think this will engender consequences where our elected representatives will become even less accessible than they are at present.
There are a lot of loon balls out there notwithstanding a significant distrust of elected politicians. This is bad news today whatever way it tumbles out.
“Setting aside the absence of real power, brains, and a top lip, she’s basically Tony Blair in a skirt.”
Aptly put Hatuey, as Tony Blair’s alter ego is Miranda, what male (sorry person with a dangly bit, I must be politically correct) name must Sturgeon, use in her split personality, I wonder?
Sensible Dave says: at 12:59 pm
“Graf
…could you do me a favour and let robbo and Ros know that the IMF figures are correct please.
Its hard to defend a position where my figures are both right and wrong – depending upon who is reading them.”
——————————–
What you were doing was boasting about how good the 6.8% figure was, a figure for this year.
You were not boasting the fact that the UK GDP fell last year by nearly 10%, another “Worldbeater” type of number.
So even with a good number this year you are still way behind other economies in recovering.
BTW silly Dave.
I forgot all the rotting fields of England where the farmers are busy plowing the unpicked veggies back in or the fruit that wasn’t picked goes to waste. The Vegans are in tears.
AS for the foodbanks….
Just discovered that a lot of the great and the good who are attending the Cop26 extravaganza are staying at the Gleneagles hotel. To transport them to and from Glasgow a fleet of Tesla electric cars have been obtained. I assume that they have been hired rather than bought?
A slight problem has arisen in that Gleneagles does not have any or enough charging points for the cars. The solution-hire a bunch of diesel generators!
https://archive.is/Z23By
This is the kind of unconstitutional slight of hand which gets my goat.
The argument runs whether Holyrood has the power to right it’s own legislation, or whether that erodes the “apparent” sovereignty of Westminster.
It is arguable, that the Scotland Act does make Holyrood a subordinate assembly to Westminster, but the Scotland Act, while it may be the small ‘c’ constitution of a devolved assembly, IS NOT the Constitution of Scotland, which enshrines sovereignty upon the Scottish people.
Westminster, and Westminster’s Supreme Court, is exploiting Holyrood’s wretched constitutional incompetence, and using it as a beachhead in Edinburgh, whereby UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, (the unwritten convention of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty), is encroaching over the Scottish Constitutional doctrine of popular sovereignty. Scottish Popular Sovereignty, which has it’s constitutional birth certificate in the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath, and NOTHING since has ever once removed sovereignty from the Scottish people, who thus REMAIN sovereign.
It’s also debatable whether I have the power to “right”, or rather spell “write”. Lol
Disappointed.
I was expecting the clip of Robert Winston on Question Time to be up here.
Come on, Rev – write something on it!
Graf
You are so far up yer own a**e and you just make S**t up!
You wrote “What you were doing was boasting about how good the 6.8% figure was, a figure for this year.!
No. I didn’t boast, I responded with factual information that disproved the idiot that wrote that Brexit is/was and “unmitigated” (i.e. synonyms: complete/total/unqualified/ absolute) disaster.
You wrote “You were not boasting the fact that the UK GDP fell last year by nearly 10%, another “Worldbeater” type of number.”
You are correct on that point, I didn’t boast there either.
With regards to the rest of your stuff Graffy, its not my role to defend everything that might be wrong with the country or the world.
What i do know though is your strategy has failed and continues to fail and is forecast to continue to fail in the future (You know what they say about keeping doing the same thing and expecting a different result?)
Slagging off your neighbouring country, its folk, its place and relevance in the world – is your right.
Evidentially though, everyone else (including a majority of your countryfolk) have the right to listen to what you say …. and then discard the stuff as the ramblings of a nasty zealot.
…. which, I would suggest, despite all your nasty stuff, is why more folk in Scotland prefer to remain part of the UK … than to let the likes of you anywhere near the reins?
It is interesting to watch/witness a loony zealot going about his business though.
Toodle pip.
Another SNP lickspittle Drew Henry MP finger pointing on how bad Brexit is for Scotland and the UK, the SNP Westminster group are now so embedded in the House of Commons that they are giving themselves titles, Henry is now the Shadow SNP International Trade secretary.
Christ this lot are an embarrassment to Scotland.
Meanwhile our FM Sturgeon is encouraging men to watch a new campaign video aimed at tackling sexual violence in Scotland, this is the same FM whose GRA policy will allow MEN to self-identify as women, and allow MEN into women and girls safe spaces, including women’s prisons.
The irony of the situation is surely not lost on us.
Meganser
“What’s the difference between a flying pig and Nicola Sturgeon?”
…. the flying pig didn’t ever fool millions of people in to thinking that it knew what it was doing?
… The flying pig knew that the Scottish economy was being kept afloat by English tax payers?
…. the flying pig said it would allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU?
… The Flying pig was English and he watched his football team play in the world cup?
I did not know until I read Douglass Ross is still an MP. Does anyone know if he is claiming two wages one for Westminster and one for Holyrood. The Scottish Government has asked for Military help for 2 Healthboards
The SNP ran Glasgow city council are spending millions on cycle lanes in the city, but twice help close down a vital foodbank in the city’s Govanhill area, ironically its situated in Sturgeon’s constituency.
https://archive.is/gPE1t
Sensible Dave.
The answer is: the letter ‘f’.
The braindead at Castlegray Skull aka Ten Downing street, are beginning to realise that Brexit is mother of all f*ck ups, and are now allowing EU drivers (those that still want to come to the UK) to do multiple drop offs and picks ups in the UK.
The numbskulls are attempting to mitigate a disaster that they caused in the first place and expecting us to applaud them for doing so.
Not content with allowing the UK Border Force, to physically repel boat loads of immigrants heading for the UK, in which if immigrants die the Border Force personnel will most likely be immune from prosecution, Priti Patel now wants those who seek entry to the UK to undergo bone scans to determine their ages, so see if they are lying about it.
What next from Patel, must immigrants seeking asylum in the UK wear a yellow badge to distinguish them as well.
Merganser
haha! Very Good! I was right too though!
@ Willie 1.52pm , without condoning or excusing the attack on that conservative MP no one knows the situation behind the attack , again I will say I am NOT excusing it , but people have a breaking point and maybe something has led to the person feeling so frustrated and angered by the corruption and lies of this government aligned with treating people abominably like trash , maybe the person and their family were homeless or the £20 UC uplift being removed was the final straw which caused a mental breakdown
People have to accept responsibility for their actions and the impact it will have on others which has been sadly and totally missing for decades , eg thatcher and Blair they have destroyed many lives with their greed and debauchery yet have NEVER faced any kind of punishment , on the contrary they became richer and lauded
I can make no judgement on the circumstances which may have caused the attack , but as my old mother used to say “you have to walk a mile in someone’s shoes to appreciate their viewpoint”
Chas says: at 1:58 pm
“Just discovered that a lot of the great and the good who are attending the Cop26 extravaganza are staying at the Gleneagles hotel. To transport them to and from Glasgow a fleet of Tesla electric cars have been obtained. I assume that they have been hired rather than bought?
A slight problem has arisen in that Gleneagles does not have any or enough charging points for the cars. The solution-hire a bunch of diesel generators!”
Have you got a source for that info? I linked to a tweet about that a week or so back but would like to see genuine confirmation on various aspects.
EG. Are the VIPs really traveling to COP26 form Gleneagles when the more environmentally sound practice would be to stay nearer the Glasgow venue rather than have to travel extra miles.
Is the use of 50 Teslas correct.
Is the diesel generator charging points correct.
If they are actually staying at Gleneagles and traveling to Glasgow then rather than using a load of cars they should practice what they preach and use the train.
The line from Glasgow to Perth is electrified as far as Dunblane so the train could be propelled by clean renewable leccy power. Plus a stop order could be put on the train if Gleneagles Station is not a scheduled stop on the timetable.
Twathater
“I can make no judgement on the circumstances which may have caused the attack , but as my old mother used to say “you have to walk a mile in someone’s shoes to appreciate their viewpoint”
I see you twathater. You are despicable excuse for a human being.
Dave.
Despicable you say.
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-despicable-tories/
One wonders how many Tory politicians paid their respects to those who died at the hands of their evil ideological austerity policies. None I’ll wager.
http://calumslist.org/
My first and only response to anything you have commented on on WOS Whateverdave I don’t know what you think I said but as usual you are anything but sensible ,your presumed interpretation of my comment leads me to interpret yours as deliberately misconstruing the comment PROVING you are nothing but a stupid self opinionated Arse
Twathater
Normally I don’t disagree with you comments but your half hearted non-condemnation of a vicious and evil murder was beneath contempt.
It appears the murderous thug was motivated by some twisted religious terror motive and the police have already handed the investigation over to the anti-terror people.
Whatever the opinions of the victim, who appears to have been well liked by everyone, he has a right to express them unmolested.
It’s called democracy
*IMPORTANT* Last-minute change re FOW gathering tomorrow –
We can’t access the private room (upstairs) before 7pm.
Sorry if that causes a problem for anyone. (We have to stay downstairs until upstairs bar has staff.)
😉
“…renewables won’t last forever.”
Nice one Dave.
@Republicofscotland – 15 October, 2021 at 1:47 pm
“Wisely China’s premier Xi Jingping has said he will not be attending the circus in Glasgow come November, it wouldn’t surprise me if the West attempted to arrest him as Canada did with a CEO of Huawei on trumped up charges.”
Well let’s see. Tens of millions dead worldwide. Tens of millions still alive worldwide but struggling with long-term health problems. Trillions of dollars wiped off the economies of most countries and tens of millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of third-world citizens hurled back into destitution and reduced life expectancy.
These charges “trumped up” enough for you Republic?
@Republicofscotland – 15 October, 2021 at 4:10 pm
“Not content with allowing the UK Border Force, to physically repel boat loads of immigrants heading for the UK, in which if immigrants die the Border Force personnel will most likely be immune from prosecution, Priti Patel now wants those who seek entry to the UK to undergo bone scans to determine their ages, so see if they are lying about it.”
Well, let’s see. Perhaps if the bone scans can determine if it is just politicians who will be at risk of being murdered, and not nice people like you, they could be justified after all.
What exactly happened to you, Republic, to make you so bitter and twisted? I think maybes some posh kid beat you at durbs when you were 9 and 50+ years later, you have still not got over it.
I thought by now you might have realised that you are to the cause of Scottish Independence what a steaming turd in the doorway is to an up-market restaurant.
Breeks – 15 October, 2021 at 2:01 pm
Sorry pal, but just about had it up to here with people banging on about Scottish Popular Sovereignty, the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath, etc, et fkn cetra.
Just for once, tell me how:
1) All of the above enables me to tell Covid zealots that I will go hill walking when they say I must stay locked down at home.
2) All of the above enables me to tell Council busybodies that I am not going to spend £500 quid on fckn smoke alarms I neither want nor need.
3) All of the above enables me to tell Green eedjits that having just shelled out for a new diesel car, I have no intention whatsoever of replacing it with a battery driven, high-tech, low-range, un-maintainable nightmare of a vehicle, having spent my lawfully earned and taxed money on a legal vehicle with the expectation of running it for 15 years.
Cos here’s the thing. If Scottish Popular Sovereignty and the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath give me diddly squat rights or control over the minutiae of my everyday life, then it’s a waste of fkn breath.
And you need to find a new hobbyhorse to climb onto.
Take your time, I’m waiting.
Main @8.37pm.
Main, you can’t blame China for all the deaths surrounding Covid, surely even a sad old git like yourself can see that, and why would the Chinese premier come to a hostile environment, where the host along with the US and and Australia are provoking war.
As for you siding with Patel, I’m not in the least surprised, you come across as old bigot at heart.
Sensible Dave says: at 2:33 pm
Graf
You are so far up yer own a**e and you just make S**t up!
You wrote “What you were doing was boasting about how good the 6.8% figure was, a figure for this year.!
No. I didn’t boast, I responded with factual information that disproved the idiot that wrote that Brexit is/was and “unmitigated” (i.e. synonyms: complete/total/unqualified/ absolute) disaster.
It is interesting to watch/witness a loony zealot going about his business though.
Toodle pip.
————————–
Silly Dave, we could almost hear you panting with joy that you had something factual and big to rub under the Scots noses.
Look at that number, 6.8% it’s huuuge isn’t it, bigger than all those G7 countries. You didn’t bother to put it context to the past where the loss before was just as huge.
Even huuuger in fact.
Or as you’ve already told us a couple of times, you are here to help us, to educate us, to show us Scots the truth about how the English are so concerned for us.
Or as you say in the Southeast, ya pompous git.
Brexit is a HUGE disaster.. 🙁
Alba weekly update, basically why we can’t wheesht and wait.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ctRB4oqtVT4
‘mon the Alba.
Hope dies last, they say.
Twathater@ 4.59. Who knows twathater what was in the mind of the indididual who set out yesterday to murder this individual.
Police have now released information to say that the incident was terrorist, that the I dividual involved was of Somalian origin and that it related to radical Islamism.
And if so what can you say. Maybe this is now the society in which we live. A reflection and a response to policies. A reflection on the ever increasing level of disparity between people, classes, and the government.
A tragedy yesterday for a family losing their Father, a wife losing her husband, and wrapped up with the symbolism of a murder inside a church.
For whatever reason not a symbol of a society at peace with itself. And most certainly something that I’m sure will even more so make the political classes going forward more remote.
But who knows. An islamist plot, a discontented citizen, a murderous loon ball. I guess we’ll never find out the true reason.
We have of course the experience of the Irish troubles, or the Dirty War as it was called by some and how that played out. Aside of that, we also now have the experience or should we say cognisance that we didn’t have any of these so called Islamist attacks until after the UK had invaded Iraq. And next will it be a more home grown discontent for other reasons.
Ah Twathater, who knows.
Just another sad day in an ever more unhappy UK where extreme violence is part of the cost of doing business.
Aye Willie it is sad as you say that this is the world going forward
TBQH if I lived in any of these countries that are bombed to shit and my family were killed or injured I would be looking for someone to blame
I also cannot stomach hypocrisy and I cannot understand that anyone who purports to follow a christian doctrine can support a tory government and especially this tory government who excel in pouring misery and scorn on the weakest in society
Yes Twathater you reap what you sow.
There you go folks . Behind the scenes the word ‘Mother’ has been cancelled.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/scotland-s-civil-service-deletes-mother-from-maternity-policy-after-stonewall-pressure/ar-AAPzN9e?ocid=msedgntp
I hope someone from the Wings collective can help me here. I am trying to recall the name and author of a novel I read some years ago.
It started with an encounter on a road in the Pyrennes and involved a Scottish businessman realising, for us to gain Independence, we need a true pro-Independence popular newspaper in Scotland, telling the truth about how London is conning us.
He then starts such a paper and, immediately the problems arise.
I cannot for the life of me remember the book’s title. Hopefully someone on here can help. Because, quite honestly, I think that is the breakthrough the Independence movement needs.
Once we get the likes of the Daily Record, in pro-Independence Scottish hands, exposing the lies and double dealing of the Westminster cabal, and the same haibts in the SNP – then we just might hasten Independence.
But, for as long as the current pro-Unionist media stranglehold endures, Scotland is doomed. The activists and the knowledgable are already on the pro-Indy sites – the vast majority of the population doesn’t really care, because they have been fed lies and don’t know the reality.
Once we change that mentality – we win.
Sensible dave, what I mean by Scottish Votes for Scottish Laws is that Westminster Scottish MPs should vote on if Scotland should become independent or not. This was accepted for decades. Just as Scotland has no right to vote on English only matters England has not right to vote on Scottish only matters.
It is time for SVSL and a vote on Scottish independence in Westminster by Scottish MPs now.
@Socrates: isn’t it “The Douglas Affair” by Alistair Mair?
Robbo @ 8.04
” Leslie Evans, the permanent secretary, told workers that climbing the rankings was a priority, even making entering the top 100 a formal objective as part of her internal performance review.”
There , in one short paragraph , is everything we need to know about the priorities of NSNP and it’s Civil Service lunacy enablers .
The grovelling acquiescence to the Stonewall Protection/Extortion racket.
What a fckn scam , they invent some bullshit ” Equality Index * then effectively blackmail companies and institutions to adhere to it . And the most ridiculous part is those companies and institutions , rather than telling the new Gender Politburo to fuck right off,tamely,willingly,enthusiastically, go along with it
Sturgeon and Evans . The funeral directors of Independence dreams and instigators of social nightmares should be remembered as the biggest criminal duo to come out of Edinburgh since Burke and Hare
Robert Hughes says:
16 October, 2021 at 9:03 am
Robbo @ 8.04
Yup. The two main saboteur’s. 4 more years of this lot is scary for independence, but that is their plan. Make them unelectable- let Tories in and we’re fucked. Tories will remove all routes to Indy.
SOCRATES MAC SPORRAN
Not about newspapers which are on the way to the museum but intention, motivation and leadership.
Need leaders with the balls to say that «unionists eat babies» and are prepared to engage in a bare knuckle fight to smash the union and the globalist/corporatist «controllers» who oppose popular democracy.
Extreme perhaps but leaves no shadow of doubt.
Scottish nationalism is just that bit too «tea and scones».
<Tinto Chiel @ 8.57am
Thanks TC – that definitely rings a bell with me.
@Socrates: I’ve never driven The Switchback since reading it 😉 .
When some fruit-loop dried to force AS off the road a few years back, the book instantly came to mind…
Jamie @8.25am.
Jamie with your avatar in mind you might want to read about the Scots/Palestinian doctor fitted up by MI5 and held in a squalid shithole prison in Northern Ireland.
https://archive.is/kI6Sq
Robbo @8.04am.
Robbo.
This woke stuff is getting out of hand, in my opinion the word mother is almost universal, how dare they try and remove it. Maman. Madre. Mamma. Mam. Amá. ‘Um. Mama. Eomma. Amma. Mama. Mamay. Maa.
Was John Main the guy that made out he was the Wolf of Wall Street when he first started coming on here?
He’s come along way since Wall Street, eh…
@ Socrates Macsporran, Tinto Chiel: thanks for the book details and the info about someone trying to drive AS off the road. We have been in a scary place for some years, haven’t we?
The route out is for someone to become leader of the SNP who will restore internal party democracy and re-direct party efforts towards making the party’s only objective the restoration of Scotland’s nation status.
How do we do this? We need to find some principled member[s] who are prepared to stand for leader at the Annual conference – but time is running out. Anyone would do but several would be better – to share the heat – and including a well-regarded and well-known figure. This would ensure a wide debate that the mass membership couldn’t miss seeing and learning about problems being caused by current leadership.
How many Wingers have asked an MP/MSP/prominent member/any member to stand? It must be done now or there will be another rollover of the current leader and pals for another year which means more crushing of free speech and liberty, more lies, more personal attacks, more insane legislation, more barriers to independence.
And getting a major newspaper to come over to Yes would help – pity about the Scotsman eluding AS’s grasp that time a few years back.
@ Rev – One other move that might help would be if Wings, Grouse, Believe in Scotland, Ian Lawson, Barrhead Boy, ISP, Alba etc etc liaised with NowScotland on a joint promotion of a petition to Holyrood demanding they action the Scottish Sovereignty Research Group’s Plan for Action.
Thankfully outside of the Scottish parliament the people inside it can
still be referred to as the Mother Fu*kers who sanctioned the demise
of the word Mother for the sake of lost souls who demand they be the
centre of attention.
I had sympathy for their plight but now that my government has denied the
laws of nature and start reality to appease them, I am against them.
God and the bible must be next to be attacked as a from Adam’s rib he made woman.
Obviously the great creator of the universe did consult Adam or the LGBT groups to
see if his penis was actually a vagina.
Million dying of treatable diseases, drinking contaminated water, air pollution, metal illness,
and Covid. Millions going hungry and cold but we need to spend time removing Mother’s Day?
Robbo @8.54
There is so much inconsistency in this announcement. The new phrase no says:-
“you must be the spouse or partner (including same-sex partner) or the pregnant woman”.
Surely they have to alter the last word to pregnant person
Then, they may have removed the word mother but have they still accepted to call the Policy their ‘Maternity Policy’ derived from the latin word ‘Mater’ or ‘MOTHER’!!!!!
(NB: no more than 5 exclamation marks as I don’t want to be chased with HAMMERS!)
How absolutely stupid, inconsistent, uneducated and utterly crass!
Surely it would have to become a ‘Parenting Policy’.
But then, to be consistent, if you are not the biological contributor to the creation of this new human can you actually be called the Parent?
Maybe, to be absolutely inclusive and absolutely consistent, the sentence has to say that ‘you must be the ….
‘Parent, Acting Parent, Surrogate Parent and/or Donor Parent, Spouse or Partner ( or same-sex partner) of aforementioned persons’ Policy regarding the time off work available after the appearance of a new human child of unassigned sex or gender.
Maybe Lord Winston and his remarks on ‘Question Time’ TV will become a benchmark around which ‘normal’ people can begin to fight back against this folly.
This rabbit hole has a long way still to go.
@Ottomanboi 9.50 am
Sadly I fear you’re right. The Yes movement has always seemed to have an almost monomaniacal focus on being relentlessly positive. Whilst positive campaigning and messaging may have its place as part of an overall strategy, I think the failure in 2014 and the lack of significant progress since shows that it just doesn’t work.
I’m not sure I buy the argument that we can’t win due to the fact the MSM are overwhelmingly hostile. The relentless “happy-clappy” positivity, twinned with a failure to actually start creating Scottish institutions, based in Scotland for everything that wasn’t explicitly ruled out by the devolutionary settlement, makes further progress a hostage to the existing Westminster controlled process.
A people which is led by an independence movement in hock to one dominant irredeemably gradualist political party isn’t going to see progress in any reasonable timescale. If the Irish Parliamentary Party had seen off Sinn Fein, Ireland would probably still be part of the UK.
I now have my doubts the majority of Scots are “politically hungry” enough to bring about independence in the short to medium term. That may change in the event of some economic or political crisis in the next few years, but frankly from what I’ve seen since 2015 in particular, I have my doubts even that would result in a sudden upsurge in support for independence.
The only practical means to advance the cause of independence is to build up a more radical alternative than the devolusionist SNP, and advocate for the gradual ratcheting up of demands so that in every policy area except defence and foreign policy the movement starts to build up the institutions and structures necessary for statehood, and simultaneously ensure Alba and other more radical parties than the dysfunctional SNP ensure that every election form now on is plebiscitary.
It may take some time to come to fruition, but I don’t see it as taking any longer than trusting that the SNP will somehow get lucky and manage to construct a pro-independence majority by asking nicely is we’re allowed #indyref2. The britnats wet dream of delaying the next referendum until at least 25 years pass from 2014 is looking increasingly likely unless the SNP is defeated. They’re as big an obstacle to independence as the britnats and MSM.
Not much interest expressed here (except for Willie) on the brutal murder of Sir David Amess by a Somalian immigrant/asylum seeker.
These people are a definite danger to our society, be they only a handful of radicalised young folk, but an even bigger danger is the homegrown cult of the Alphabet People and their supporters in Holyrood, who’s numbers multiply daily.
Let us hope Scottish Independence, which I supported strongly under Alex Salmond and resigned from under Sturgeon when I saw her direction of travel…..is not a case of “out of the frying pan into the fire”
Rev has left the building, how many here will throw in their lot with the destroyers of Scottish society?
Meg merrilees says: at 12:59 pm
“…new human child…”
Hate Crime Klaxon!
The way things are going that wording has potential for mis-speciesing. Who can say the “thing” will actually Self ID as a newly formed human child.
ANDY ELLIS.
It may well have been the shock of 1916 and the British response that kicked many in Ireland out of dream time and provoked the realisation that things had to change.
Sadly, shocks do not always deliver. The failed «Arab Spring» is a case of that. A lack of a plan may have had something to do with that also a naïve belief in the power of social media among the «westernised» elements.
The SNP is certainly not into shock tactics and takes a suppressing view of any that dare to think outside its narrow optic. In that respect it falls far short of being «democratic».
There is also a pervading view that the SNP government must be the government for all, even those who voted for alternatives. In the British state context that is a real novelty where effectively the winner takes all.
Independence demands nothing less.
Happy clappy nats….no thanks.
With all those world leaders going to be in Glasgow at the same time I just hope we dont have a terrorist attack. The MP who was murdered terrible thing to happen whatever the excuse turns out to be.
“I’m not sure I buy the argument we can’t win due to the fact the MSM are overwhelmingly hostile. The relentless “happy-clappy” positivity, twinned with a failure to actually start creating Scottish institutions, based in Scotland for everything that wasn’t explicitly ruled out by the devolutionary settlement” Ellis 09.50
Not only is this waffle base opinion (‘happy clappy’ insulting), set against the evidence, it’s actually a recipe for getting rid of the SNP. Is Alan Smyth writing this nonsense?
The route perspective must change on how Scotland becomes recognised as independent.
The perception that it can only be obtained through the snp sitting in a devolved government must change too.
NS is a globalist in everything but the stolen name of snp.
The net being thrown over Scotland and its people by the snp and green coalition is one that is taken place in all countries across the world from Nz,Canada, America. Germany,
France etc.
The gender issue is a world politics.
The retracting of free speech is a world view in politics
The destruction of economies and supporting businesses and structures is a world view in politics.
Thus the little country of Scotland is thrown into chaos with a deliberate arrow for the benefit of global politics of a build back better global plans mantra that you every leader quoting from Boris Johnson, joe Biden Nicola sturgeon, Canada, Australia, etc.
We have to recognise that although NS is in our sights, she is a brain washed puppet in a club of many hypnotised cult leaders.
We are not fighting a small peanut like sturgeon. She is mere smoke and mirrors, a front image, a puppet,
The copied mantras, the copied speeches, the copied green deals, the cancel culture, the copied gender issues, the copied approach to ensure the police are distrusted by the public, the copied covid disaster policies. The reduction of free speech, the ignoring of human rights,
The world wide policies that create poverty for people,The minimum wage as maximum wage ,plans, the stirring up of hatred that sets one citizen or culture against another, the BLM against the white male priviledged, the tearing down of statues and dismantling history, the blocking of public access to their parliaments or political buildings for varies reasoning,
ARE ALL WORLD WIDE EVENTS. GLOBAL EVENTS.
The same disasters and policies by each Country that are supposedly ran as independent from each other are beyond the coincidence of statistics, for it to happen in parallel years and same century. For many members to be sitting on more than one seat.
And for all those leaders to go to the same meetings, conventions, on climate change, on world wide health etc displays a correlation beyond our full comprehension.
So what is the real Tiger tail we hold?
It is not just NS that’s for sure,
It must be something akin to 89% of politicians whom benefit to 90% .
It is a world wide virus that seems to to have started in a political parliamentary laboratory and infect mainly politicians and no one has found a vaccine against it continued spread,
So I suggest we find a different method of fighting this deadly disease that is having a detrimental effect on populations
Physical protests around the world are not the answer, unless you want to be beaten up or shot at on government policies and orders.
Attempting to change the percentage of rotten politicians with good ones may be the answer long term. except access in to these high places at the moment is blocked with manipulated control by the virus infected politicians.
I would suggest that we we will never win independence for Scotland if we are wanting to join the virulently infected politicians and live in the same building.
“ Edinburgh’s Nike conference Covid outbreak: Nicola Sturgeon denied it, but now we know there was a cover-up…”
“She claimed that talk of a cover-up was “complete and utter nonsense”. She also denied it in parliament… it should also be remembered that misleading parliament is a breach of the ministerial code.”
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/edinburghs-nike-conference-covid-outbreak-nicola-sturgeon-denied-it-but-now-we-know-there-was-a-cover-up-ian-murray-mp-3417927
Yet again they give her an easy ride on the Nile Conference cover-up and on her handling of the pandemic in which over ten thousand Scottish people needlessly died.
They protect her because they trust her not to push for independence.
Scottish politics has never been so fraudulent.
With the military being brought in to help two Scottish health boards GP Surgeries not doing face to face consultations. So called minor operations being cancelled restricted visiting and care services in crises how about a conference to sort that out.
“Just imagine if a Westminster government minister had covered up an outbreak like this in England. They would not still be in their job.”
Hatuey.
Ian Murray was doing okay in that report on how devious Sturgeon is, until he blurted out the above bollocks. He must have been wearing his manky Union Jack suit, and singing God Save the Queen whilst penning the article.
So our attention seeking FM has met with Iceland’s PM following her Artic Circle speech on Thursday, she’s also met with US Senator Lisa Murkowski, to discuss how Scotland and Alaska can work together, given our shared oil and gas heritage.
Sturgeon has also spoken with the EU Commissioner for Environment Oceans and Fisheries, she has been a busy little bee, she can travel half way around the globe to speak to anyone that will listen, but she can’t drag herself along to a AUOB march in her own country, but she can easily attend Pride marches in Scotland, what treacherous wee b*stard she is.
@Grouse Beater 2.25 pm
As opposed to your opinion you mean Gareth? What is it you’re actually taking issue with in my comment? Presumably you disagree with my “waffle based opinion”, but you seem to be coming up short providing any reasoned alternative. Perhaps that shouldn’t be too surprising from someone happy to talk about “indigenous” Scots right enough, or someone who has made hay about how badly he was treated by the SNP, while doling out the same to those with the temerity to disagree with his “waffle based opinions”?
So let’s hear it Gareth, what is it you are disagreeing with exactly?
Do you disagree that the 2014 campaign was “happy clappy” and that it should have used negative as well as positive campaigning?
Do you really think that having Scottish MSM which is overwhelmingly hostile means we can’t win, and if so…how long is it going to take for that to change?
It will presumably be news to Alan Smyth that he agrees with me, but there again you appear much more willing to play the man than the ball Gareth. Disappointingly you’ve just turned in to another of the BTL zoomers in here who can’t actually construct a coherent case, they just feel free to other anyone who disagrees with them as either MI5 or 77th Brigade infiltrators or SNP stooges or not “real” nationalists at all, depending what flavour of moon howler is flinging their rhetorical shit around.
That’s probably an indication I’m doing something right.
Akenaton mentions not much on here about the Mp murdered by the Somalian refugee.Sturgeon was only a few weeks ago,virtue signaling “lets let 350 K, refugees into Scotland, that have the same backward ideology.Most Scots dont have Villas in Portugal to escape to in retirement ,Or castles ,like the Dundee Msp with the Socialist values.
North Ayrshire has been short listed for a UK nuclear fusion energy plant, and the local SNP MP Patricia Gibson is delighted about it.
Gibson added that she’s glad her constituency has made the short list for the development of green clean fusion energy, when did nuclear energy become green I ask?
Dr Ian Fairlie, an expert in radiation and radioactivity, stated that fusion reactors routinely release radiation into the atmosphere via cooling water for the reactor which contaminates ALL areas down stream and down wind.
Scotland doesn’t need nuclear reactors, and I’m pretty sure Scots don’t want them either, but the SNP does want them.
Meanwhile Sturgeons possible replacement (Angus Robertson) when she finally jets off to a new well paid position having left Scotland on its knees and at the mercy of Westminster, has said.
“He told The Times: “There is no point becoming a sovereign state unless you are wanting to do something with the powers of statehood, the powers of international relations, the opportunities of diplomacy and co-operation.”
https://archive.is/P2oSi
nuclear fusion isn’t fission, but it still sounds bogus; Sabine is a proper physicist and knows her onions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ4W1g-6JiY
Confused says:
16 October, 2021 at 4:17 pm
nuclear fusion isn’t fission, but it still sounds bogus; Sabine is a proper physicist and knows her onions
No Internet to watch the vid Confused… but Nuclear fusion has been done, but the problem is it takes more energy in to make it happen that the energy it produces, so it’s nett minus energy… But the theory is very good, it’s just big problems making it work.
Having a bad day for Internet. Had none at all since yesterday pm…. Sigh.
@Breeks
yup, that’s what she says (Sabine); but worth a look for the technical angle.
Dan@1.30
Yes, I did think before I wrote that phrase that it is probably already outdated!
Apologies for failing to cancel the italics after the first usage and losing my train of thought half way through.
I suppose now one won’t be able to “mother” someone?
Will no one be able to be a “father-figure?”
And how do we describe Gin – “birth parent’s ruin?”
Just like being stuck in Groundhog Day, Mike Russell in the National today, yet again waffles on about every subject except independence and how we can ditch this union.
Horse Box Mike’s focus of attention this week is for the millionth time the BBC and how its a Westminster propaganda machine. This is old, old, antiquated news that everyone and their granny knows about, yet Russell feels he needs to repeat how the likes of Question Times stacks the audience with unionist mouthpieces.
One of these days Russell will pen something on independence that won’t be the usual garbage that’s emanates from the SNP HQ on a daily basis, or maybe not.
I am so jealous of your badger friends! I am selfishly hoping you start to do a wandering blog with lots of awesome nature pictures like the ones above, let’s face it, humanity is a bit of an arsehole species on the whole, but nature is the truth in it`s most beautiful form. All the best wherever life takes you, Rev.
The independence for Scotland has a need now to stop beating the politicians drum of mantras,
To stop being so involved as a sidelined observer going for an ever distant referendum that may turn into a plebiscite or maybe not kicked into the long grass,
It is another version of wait an see.
Andy Ellis says:
16 October, 2021 at 1:10 pm
I’m not sure I buy the argument that we can’t win due to the fact the MSM are overwhelmingly hostile.
…
The britnats wet dream of delaying the next referendum until at least 25 years pass from 2014 is looking increasingly likely unless the SNP is defeated. They’re as big an obstacle to independence as the britnats and MSM.
—
Hahaha
More contradictory drivel.
Many supporters of the old SNP were social conservative, they were even referred to as “Tartan Tories”. This was of course a Labour slur but the fact remains that Scotland has always been socially conservative except for the period when the political left and the trade unions ruled the central belt….and the less said about that the better. It is not good policy to alienate conservatives who believe in Independence and I see quite a lot of that on this forum. We are not all “Tory Scum”
@akenaton
Agree.
Opposing the anti-science GRA, and the sinister, unidentifiable Hate Crime bill IS conservative.
The Tory brand was put beyond the pale here for those who got the shitty end of Thatchers stick.
James Che @ 2.36 pm Well said – I agree with just about everything you say there. The NS Party (Neuterize Scotland Party) is a small cog in a much bigger international machine. Welcome to the Post-Modernist World, where nothing at all is any longer what it once was. That is, where everything is up for grabs, and consigned to perpetual change (including changing – transmogrifying – itself from one thing into another).
There is no such thing as a specific thing any more: no essences exist, they have all been abolished. Words no longer mean what they say. We all fell through the looking-glass, and no amount of backward-flipping will ever get us back to where we once were. Anyway, backward flips have been outlawed.
All foundations – including all foundations in reality, and all of reality itself – have been bulldozed, and there is absolutely nothing to put in its place, except absolute nothingness. Total non-existence. And that goes for Scotland too – what are you talking about, the NSP will be saying before its present so-called ‘term of office’ has ended – didn’t you hear about what happened? It doesn’t exist any more. And if you keep saying it does will put you in a mental asylum, or a prison, or send you for ever to a perpetual retraining / re-education camp.
Welcome to the Post-Modern global agenda. No it’s not a nightmare. It’s just that everything, including the ground you walk on, has been swallowed up into an ever-evolving black hole of essence-free non-existence. Don’t try to escape – there is no way out. All exits are covered. And you can’t think yourself out either – thinking in this maelstrom is impossible, and even if it wasn’t it’s a capital offence – so there! And by the way, chromosomes don’t count either: they have been outlawed as a vile fabrication. Long live the Lie! Which lies? Our Lies, the only ones that count. Reality is what we say it is, and you had better agree, otherwise our newly invented reality will hit you very very hard where it hurts very very much – you won’t recover! No way! No chance!
It’s not ‘You never had it so good’. It’s not even ‘You never had it at all!’ it’s just … You’ve had it! And you’d better believe it.
This is the end of reality as you knew it, and the beginning of the new reality that our political masters – globally, of which the former Scotland is but a small dot – are inventing for us.
Anybody able to start a satirical magazine? Maybe ‘Scotland the What?’, … but that’s an old one. Or should it be ‘Scotland the Not?’ Or just ‘Scotland the Knot’?, or ‘Scotland all tied up in Knots’? Or is that too much like ‘Holyrood Bondage’, or something or other that some very strange people get up to in the not-so-beautiful House of Bute, which must surely be one of the features on the ‘Haunted Edinburgh Trail’. No doubt promoted by ‘Visit Not-Scotland’, or something like that …
The Non-stop Nightmares, Day and Night, here we come …
Forgot to say, this ex drinker hopes all are having a lovely time tonight, and Mr Ellis popped in to show you what perfection looks like.
😉
Defo
@ Republicofscotland at 3:48 pm
Patrica Gibson is an arse,she is a third rate primary school teacher, with less sense than her pupils.
Re Hunterston, it is about ten years beyond it’s life expediency ,the life of the plant is I believe long over due , Brian Wilson manage to get the life extended, only to get a very well paidjob immediately after leaving Westminster within the Nuclear field
“According to one’s point of view, he is either credited or blamed for doing more than any other politician to “keep the nuclear option open” through the early years of the Labour government, when many of his colleagues were determined to kill it off once and for all in Britain”
The extensions to life don’t appear to have come from engineering work of building but from recalculation of “measurement”
Hunterston is about 60 years old, One potential problem is most of the ownership of the plant is foreign, so when it does shut I would have little confidence in the owners cleaning it up……there in lies a problem for Scotland
“Gibson added that she’s glad her constituency has made the short list for the development of green clean fusion energy, when did nuclear energy become green I ask?”
And there you have it , she is thick
“Dr Ian Fairlie, an expert in radiation and radioactivity, stated that fusion reactors routinely release radiation into the atmosphere via cooling water for the reactor which contaminates ALL areas down stream and down wind.” It a coincidence that Fairlie that’s where Hunterson is
Patsy is a world class chancer, when she got elected , All she could go on about was how wonderful Westminster was, and how she was honored to be there ( used to be SNP didn’t want to be in the place)
I questioned her election at the SNP hustings as a potential fix , and there is still the complaint over that and another of her alleged groping in 2018/19, and that was covered up until February 2021
I wonder if she actually is the procurement officer for Kenneth as has been said before
And there we have Andy Pandy who didn’t have any interest in indy in 2014 and didn’t return to Scotland till 2018, he now tells us how the 2014 ref should have been handled and the reason we lost it , the happy clappy king of civic nationalism now says there was TOO much happy clappy and that has to change
Just like the statement he always uses “we lost the ref because we couldn’t convince enough Scots to vote for it” irrespective of it being pointed out numerous times that SCOTS did indeed vote for indy .
He Now rubbishes the opinion that the MSM were hugely instrumental in manipulating the vote against indy
FFS the vow , the pensions , Broon interventions , the queen , obama , BOE , celebrities , EU arseholes ,the pound
The MSM didn’t publish anything about those things and many others not even during purdah
Yeah Andys NOT a brit nat or 77th brigade he is a happy clappy or maybe not fervent supporter of independence unless you don’t do what Andy wants then he will ACTIVELY WORK AGAINST INDEPENDENCE
@Hugh Arse 10 pm
From your contributions we assumed you were still on the brew anyway.
Happy to help!
@Scott 6.56 pm
I know that dealing with you is generally like trying to explain the difference between “small” and “far away” to Father Dougal Scott, but at least try not to be proud of your ignorance in such a public forum, huh? You’re just embarrassing yourself.
There is no contradiction except to people whose lips move when they read. The fact the vast majority of the Scottish MSM is unionist is a bad thing. It would be better if it were balanced, but that’s never going to happen. Obviously it would help the independence movement to have fairer more balanced media coverage, but…(and it’s a big but, think of the following being written in big capitals in the red crayons you probably favour Scott if that helps get it through to you peas sized brain OK?) the idea that it was the MSM that led to the defeat in 2014, or that it isn’t possible to win until we have “freindly” MSM is for the birds.
Not having ANY friendly media (not even a second rate SNP comic like the National) didn’t stop the movement adding 20% to its support between 2102 and 2014. Tin foil hat wearers pushing the “it woz the yoon MSM wot dun it” line are no more convincing than the usual suspects pushing the colonisation and nativist bullshit.
@twathater 3.25 pm
As I was living in Sussex at the time of the #indyref2 campaign, I’m not sure how far it would have advanced the cause for me to be campaigning there you utter plank. Being a civic nationalist doesn’t mean you can’t point out the flaws you perceive with the campaign. I always said the campaign was weak: I’m hardly alone in that. Of course it will be no huge surprise to any reasonable folk to see moon howling nativists in here attack any Scot who had the temerity not to live here express an opinion. I seem to recall the yoons used that argument a whole lot against folk like me and Rev Stu for having the absolute gall to live in Bath rather than Bathgate.
I’ve never said the MSM didn’t have an impact. You just made that up in the way you nativist extremists usually do. What I said is that it didn’t lose us the referendum. The fact that not enough Scots – ALL Scots – voted Yes is what lost us it. thankfully regressive blood and soil nationalists like you remain a spittle flecked minority in the movement, which is just as well because if any of you get within miles of power and influence we can kiss independence goodbye for generations.
“Nativist extremists”
Bolt ya radge.
Andy Ellis @ 8:40 am
“Being a civic nationalist”
The supposed liberal idea of ‘Civic nationalism’ refers to people from other nations and cultures who identify themselves as ‘belonging to a nation’ in which they now reside (Nash 2001).
Civic nationalism is arguably self-defeating in the case of Scottish independence for we know that perhaps as many as half of ‘No’ voters in 2014 “would not understand themselves as subjectively Scottish at all” (Bond 2015). This relates to voters coming from other nations/cultures and ‘extraction’ who held/hold the greatest propensity to vote No.
Moreover, Scotland cannot offer its national citizenship to anyone until after independence anyway. All ‘No’ voters by implication are clearly rejecting the offer of Scottish citizenship which independence provides, or any sense of belonging to a sovereign independent Scottish nation.
The concept of ‘civic nationalism’ therefore seems premature, and of doubtful help to the cause of Scottish independence, and indeed this and an irregular local government franchise based on residence is likely the root cause of the continued loss of Scottish sovereignty in 2014.
Ah Andy E you were doing so well there , mounting an , at least coherent, defence of your earlier comment : then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like ” …..regressive blood and soil nativist/spittle flecked minority ….”
If you object to being called a 77th Brigadist/covert Yoon ( for the record I don’t believe you’re either of those things ) it may help if you refrain from using such loaded , Nazi-era terminology
If it wouldn’t distract everyone from ripping holes in each other too much, Ronnie Anderson asked me to post this here, as I’m the only one who can embed pics:
“”at the Wingers do tonight, Craig is missed and at the forefront of our minds – the current jeopardy for his health, the injustice of his conditions, and his anticipated release – we send this message of solidarity to him and his family”
Andy is right when he says we were too “happy clappy” in 2014.
Leave Shakespeare in a room with a broken monkey and he’ll be right twice a day…
We were not too Scottish. Cambridge Analytica proved that. For all that we pretend to be rational when we vote, most of all we are driven by emotion and feelings, particularly those that relate to identity.
We need to be angrier next time, and more Scottish. Talk from a Scottish standpoint about the way those Londoners have fleeced us and treated us like shit, that sort of thing…
Women let us down quite badly in 2014. I’m not sure how you’d address that, though. Maybe if we could assure them that they’d still be able to watch Strictly and that Bake-Off type junk… crapping all over their rights isn’t likely to help, that’s for sure.
@Robert Hughes 9.58 am
If you don’t think that blood and soil nationalism is regressive and quite distinct from the civic nationalism that indyref1 was widely agreed to be a poster child for Robert, I’m not sure what to say to you.
Similarly, if you you’ve seen and read the bullshit and abuse spouted by some of the absolute roasters posting BTL here about indigenous Scots and how “we wuz robbed”, I can’t really help you.
As for your tone policing advice, I’ll give it all the consideration it deserves, OK? Meanwhile, try turning your righteous anger on some of the muppets who have been soiling the BTL comments on here with their 77th Brigade / covert yoon mantra.
Rev @ 10.03
Nice one, not very nice for Craig to spend his birthday in prison, mores when he’s innocent.
Meanwhile the Tories don’t want any input from the EU as they re-write the Human Rights Act for the UK.
“DOMINIC Raab has given fresh details about how he plans to prevent alleged interference from Strasbourg in UK matters as part of the Tory overhaul of the Human Rights Act.”
https://archive.is/SjQAN
Here’s the thing Andy – the thing you seem singularly unequipped to process
Of course ” Blood and Soil Nationalism ” is a regressive idea/worldview , it’s just that NOT A SINGLE PERSON here is espousing such a worldview .
Your determination to conflate those with the – not exactly controversial – view that Scots should be the ultimate determiners of what happen in and to their own country with Nazi Fascism is , well , a bit daft .
” Tone police ” . Christ mate do you ever think in anything other than hackneyed soundbite cliche ?
You,like anyone else, are free to use whatever language you choose , my point – which I thought was pretty obvious – is you can’t complain about being accused of what you’re not whilst doing precisely that to others
@stonefree – 16 October, 2021 at 11:32 pm
Your credibility when accusing others of being “thick”, “arses”, etc. is nil, zero, nought, void, nada, when you don’t yourself know the difference between “fusion” and “fission” within the context of nuclear power generation.
Maybes a bit more thought and a little less bile next time, eh?
Rev/Ronnie
A stark reminder of what we should be thinking of.
@Alf Baird 9.57 am
I wouldn’t expect you to do anything other than attempt to write off the concept of civic nationalism as both premature and of doubtful help to the cause of independence Alf, but neither would I accept that your analysis is correct or even persuasive. Your quoted definition (“‘Civic nationalism’ refers to people from other nations and cultures who identify themselves as ‘belonging to a nation’ in which they now reside”) is just one sound bite trying to encompass something complex. It is as arguable as your assertion – for that is all that it is – that civic nationalism is self defeating in a Scottish context.
If it is indeed true that half of 2014 No voters do not in fact subjectively understand themselves Scottish at all but (presumably?) British, that must include a very large number of native born Scots, not just “New Scots”. Just over 2 million people voted No in 2014. It therefore cannot be the case that “This relates to voters coming from other nations/cultures and ‘extraction’ who held/hold the greatest propensity to vote No”.
Putative citizenship of a future independent Scotland is a matter for the Scottish people and government to decide post independence. The outlines of how it might look were set out in the White Paper before 2014, and were widely accepted as reasonable and followed the same pattern as analogous places like Ireland. There isn’t currently any direct linkage between citizenship of a future independent Scotland and who is eligible to vote in a referendum, because the majority don’t support franchise restriction.
Both Scottish born unionists voting No, and “New Scots” voting No will face a choice in the event of a future Yes vote. They will – unless the previous plan is changed – be free to choose to retain their UK citizenship (assuming the UK agrees, which there’s no reason to think they won’t) or to take Scottish citizenship. I suspect that many (the majority?) of opponents of independence will accept the result, even if they don’t like it.
As for your repeated assertion that civic nationalism and a franchise based on residence rather than blood “is likely the root cause of the continued loss of Scottish sovereignty in 2014.” it remains very much an arguable point. The loss in 2014 is attributable to a whole range of factors, and it certainly isn’t evident to me that the reasons you assert were that important, never mind central to the loss. More to the point, it isn’t an argument that enjoys any significant traction in the movement generally or in any of the pro-indy parties, despite the number of people in here who support it.
@Andy Ellis – 17 October, 2021 at 8:32 am
“Tin foil hat wearers pushing the “it woz the yoon MSM wot dun it” line …”
They are also quite likely to be the same ones who like to come on here and start banging on about Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will.
Yet there was never a propaganda campaign in our history to match the one launched prior to the Brexit vote. “Project fear on stilts” as it was called. Everybody, from the TUC, CBI, organised religion, charitable bodies, up to and including the saintly Obama himself was trotted out to tell us how we had to vote to stay in the EU.
But that is all brushed under the carpet by those who have refashioned the “too wee, too poor” argument and hope we won’t notice. We are now told that Scotland genuinely wanted to be in the EU. We are now told that Scotland was not influenced in any way by that propaganda campaign.
Seems fckn obvious to me that nobody can rationally claim that a propaganda campaign worked for one referendum but had no influence on the other.
So let’s say the propaganda campaigns did work, and at levels sufficient to overcome the “natural, unbiased” results for both referenda. I have no problem with this interpretation, as the past 18 months has made it very clear to me that the average voter is quite unable to resist government deceit and propaganda.
In 2014, the natural vote for Yes for Independence was turned into a No. Sorry Andy, the tinfoil hat wearers win this one.
In 2016, the natural vote for Yes for Brexit was turned into a No in Scotland.
So there we have it. Scotland wants to be Independent, and wants no part of the EU slomo train wreck. When stripped of the baggage of interference, lies, propaganda and malfeasance, the people have spoken.
Is this how to do it?
https://archive.ph/w4Wq8
Scots Nats might learn from these tens of thousands of «radicalized» English & others who’ll be coming to Glasgow with deliciously mischievous intent.
NB: English police being brought in too. Those Scotch are awfa rough!
Wonder if Niccy’ll get nicked?
Hallo hen, no surrenda!
John Main @10.48am.
John, knowing the difference or not, surely what Dr Fairlie said still stands.
“Dr Ian Fairlie, an expert in radiation and radioactivity, stated that fusion reactors routinely release radiation into the atmosphere via cooling water for the reactor which contaminates ALL areas down stream and down wind.”
@Robert Hughes 10.45 am
Here’s the thing for me Robert, either you have reading difficulties which we can make due allowance for, or you’re simply being disingenuous and claiming that things which have happened aren’t true.
Of course “blood and soil nationalism” is a loaded term: it’s MEANT to be provocative. That’s why people who have been using it, including Stu Campbell and myself, have used it. It’s specifically because we’re horrified that a section of the independence movement is content to jettison civic nationalism in favour of a more regressive alternative which is specifically aimed at moving the 2014 goalposts and disenfranchising sections of the Scottish demos on ethnic nationalist lines.
The determination of some in here (thankfully a small, unrepresentative and regressive – if noisy and frequently foul mouthed – minority) to conflate their minority view that only “born Scots” or those who have been here 5 or 10 or 15 years should be the ultimate determiners of what happens in their “own” country with the views of the whole movement is more than daft, it’s delusional.
Whether you’re one of them is your own affair. If so you and others who share the approach can bridle all you like at being labelled regressive and supporters of blood and soil nationalism or nativism, but it remains fair comment as far as I’m concerned. I’m beyond tired of those advancing their regressive platform clutching their pearls and getting their panties in a bunch for being called out for it.
They’ve been banging on about this for months now, and still nary a one has come within a country mile of engaging with, still less answering, the original challenge issued by Stu Campbell in his twitter thread in July, yet they’ve felt free to pollute the BTL comments here with their nativist snake oil. No wonder the movement is stuck in an electoral cul-de-sac and Stu has given up in disgust.
@John Main 11.18 am
“In 2014, the natural vote for Yes for Independence was turned into a No. Sorry Andy, the tinfoil hat wearers win this one.
In 2016, the natural vote for Yes for Brexit was turned into a No in Scotland.”
Bullshit mate. Yes lost because it’s arguments weren’t strong enough to convince enough of the electorate concerned, which was RESIDENCE based, not ethnicity and blood line based, which was what everyone then accepted, and the vast majority still do.
The loss was overwhelmingly to do with not making an economic case, and fears about being out of the EU. The tin foil hat wearers remain where they were, because they haven’t demonstrated their case, nor explained what impact on the movement embracing blood and soil nationalism would have had. They can assert all they like that restricting the franchise to “born” Scots would have resulted in a Yes victory, but it’s just as arguable it would have turned swathes of those who voted Yes off.
There was no natural brexit majority in Scotland: there was always a minority of around 30% of SNP supporters who were anti-EU, whether left wing anti globalist opponents of the neo liberal world order types, or old style socially and economically conservative tartan Tory, cultural nationalist types. They weren’t even representative of their party, never mind the country.
The polling evidence doesn’t support your last paragraph at all. Within the margin of error, support for indy or the union is still pretty even. The movement – and particularly the SNP- has utterly failed to capitalise on the brexit shit show or Covid to significantly increase the numbers for Yes. If you think the overwhelming majority of Scots who voted to remain in the EU has somehow reduced since the brexit referendum to supporting staying out in the event of independence, I’ll need to see evidence. Personally I’d be quite happy to stay outside and take the Norwegian option, but I’ve seen nothing that persuades me the Scots electorate in general agrees.
I see this year and throughout the covid era, that the MSM are being enthusiastic advertising Scotland as the place to be if want a break, or wish to buy a castle, or wish to set up or buy a hotel businesses, a place for air b&b, a place to come with caravans and campervans during covid lockdown, even trying to promote Scotland through best photographs of Scotland in their newspapers.
A cover all angles promotion of Scotland for those living outside of Scotland.
Interesting concept.
Surely it is time for us to separate ourselves from the politician virus.
@Hatuey 10.08 am
“Andy is right when he says we were too “happy clappy” in 2014.
Leave Shakespeare in a room with a broken monkey and he’ll be right twice a day…”
Thanks for the damning with faint praise…! 🙂
Hesitant as I am to even venture an opinion (*coughs*) due to my outing as (delete to suit appropriate moon howling attack line) 77th Brigade / MI5 / a Sturgeonistsa stooge / not the right *kind* of nationalist / having had the temerity to live in England in 2014 and have a view……..
I recall discussions during the indyref1 campaign, including a few with those involved, which discussed the positive versus negative campaigning “thing”. Many of those pushing the “we have to be relentlessly positive” line thought that alone could push us over the 50% threshold. They pointed to the “problem” that the movement had with women, and assured us that positive campaigning played better with them, and would increase our vote share with them more than negative campaigning, being confrontational or running attack ads in response to Project Fear. Similarly, it was widely thought that younger voters – especially first time voters – would tend to be influenced by their parents, so the happy-clappy stuff would play well.
My view at the time, particularly after doing some research on the use of both positive and negative campaigning during Obama’s campaigns, was that you needed BOTH to fight Project Fear and expose the weaknesses in the British nationalist case: we needed to counter the risks of independence with the risks of staying in the union, to show that there were opportunities available to us with independence that weren’t available if we stayed in the union, or which would be greater if we took the leap of faith and voted Yes.
From memory, a higher % of men ended up voted Yes than women. Whether they were driven more by emotion and feelings – particularly those of identity – I don’t know. It seemed that the primary factors in securing a no vote were to do more with economics, whether we’d be worse off, what currency we’d use, whether we’d be out of the EU, what would our deficit be etc. Those were the issues Project Fear kept banging on about, and to a large extent they worked: the Yes campaign always seemed on the back foot about them, and never laid a glove on the No campaign about the state Scotland was actually in.
Dear Rev. Stu, I sure do miss you and it looks like aliens have infected this site with far too much to say for themselves.
Thank you and the lovely Ronnie for the photo and reminder that Craig is languishing in a cell – thanks to a judiciary which should hang its head in shame.
I’m off to read two less infected websites
Spotted this in Saturdays paper Angus Robertson said this the case for a second referendum is helped by the Good Friday agreement .He says that by electing an SNP Government committed to a second referendum the Scottish people have shown their support for another vote. He says agreement gives the Secretary of state for Northern Ireland the power to hold a border poll if they consider the majority of voters want one.Specified a seven year wait between one vote and the next. The referendum was in 2014 it is now 2021 seven years have passed and the Scottish Government is working on a timetable for holding a referendum in 2023 and there is no question of Nicola standing down.
Wull.
9:59.
Do you think this is the point where they are trying to re-educate us into a new world thinking cult.
You know………
Do not recognise you’re old way of thinking,
do not recognise you’re family values,
do not recognise you are a Scot,
do not recognise you are a man or a woman,
do not recognise that the hate crime bill interferes with the private rights in Scotland as stated in the the treaty of the union.
Do not recognise that you’re believe system holds any reality of thousands of years practice.
Do not believe in Scottish justice,
But believe it or not their are those here that openly admit they here to re- educate us, if not by persuasion, then by name calling, or verbal brow beating a Scot in their home land.
Do not forget we have been banned from thinking, wearing our own national dress, speaking our own language, had our people thrown out of their homes and burned down, Scots have been shipped abroad into indentured slavery, simply for being and acting like a Scot in Scotland before now.
The re-education of the Scot in Scotland is not new,
But for those trying these tactic in the modern era and for a second time around. You will find there is no friendly welcome Mat on our doorsteps inviting you in.
You will never find the Scots so aware that we have a sitting prime minster ruling Britain that let his thoughts be expressed by republishing someone’s poem that thought it appropriate to exterminate the Scots.
If not by violence for all the world to see colonialism, then by breeding them out.
It’s not that you are are Scot that had the temerity to live in England,
It’s that you no longer act or think in a Scottish way.
For a start no one in Scotland would throw that much verbal abuse at their fellow Scot unless they were drunk and looking for a physical fight.
Nor would any Scot tell another Scot they were here to educate them.because they were knuckle draggers, thick etc, without expecting a bloody nose.
You may have returned to Scotland, but you do not think like a Scot any longer.
Oh dear ….here’s yet another thing Andy
Has anybody here ever suggested rounding-up Jewish/Slavic/Homosexual/Gypsy/Communist or other deemed * degenerate * people,or creating a Lebensraum-let’s say in Yorkshire – or talked about purifying the Scottish race ?
THAT is what Blood and Soil Nationalism represented .
I’ve conceded previously that Civic Nationalism is a coherent position : but no more so than other positions .
The problem for us is we tried that in 2014 and lost – spare me the * we need to convince more Scots * , enough WERE convinced but were outvoted by a minority of native Scots ( I can feel you * bridling * at that concept , is there another term for people born in Scotland ) and non-native ( bridle time again Andra ) residents .
Personally , I’m fckn sick of * honourable * failure , the ” ach we tried , better luck next time ” mentality . ( A ) if we lose another Referendum – with the same franchise as 2014 we almost certainly will – there may well never be a * next time * . ( B ) there is absolutely nothing dishonourable about the – to repeat – uncontroversial idea that Scots have the ultimate right to determine their destiny .
No , this does not mean only Scots could vote in any future Referendum : it means there has to be some criteria to ensure Scots are not , again , denied what they voted for .
I’ll let others , more qualified than me , determine what that criteria might be
This was in Saturdays paper Angus Robertson believes the Good Friday agreement sets a precedent for a new Scottish referendum .He says it gives the Secretary of state for Northern Ireland the power to hold a border poll if they consider a majority of voters want one . Specified a seven year wait between one vote and the next The last ref was in 2014 seven years ago He said that by electing an SNP Government committed to a second independence referendum the Scottish people showed their support for another vote .He said they are working on a timetable to hold a referendum in 2023.And Nicola will not resign before the next election.
OK, time for some muck-raking…
So, what exactly is the difference between Civic Nationalism and “Blood and Soil” Nationalism?
Take for example a sensible policy on increasing taxes on second homes specifically to make more available for residents. Is this nationalism of the Blood and Soil or the Civic type? Same again for promoting Scots or Gaelic? Isn’t that just stoking the divisions between immigrants from near or far and the so-called natives. What about ensuring a fair set of opportunities for people born here, regardless of their parents’ origin, in preference to recruiting people outwith the country?
Either stance seems well equipped to frighten the soft-noes. Granted, Blood and Soil when taken to the extremes of our Germanic or Slavic cousins is to be guarded against at all costs. However there’s no history of that in Scotland that I’m aware of.
How uncivil can Civic Nationalism get when sooner or later you have to make decisions that strengthen the country? Or, is it all about giving free access to everything including natural resources – much like the current SNP administration, for example?
I’m not trying to be cute or troll, though clearly I am. All I’m reading so far is a lot of insults, plenty of heat but very little light.
@Republicofscotland – 17 October, 2021 at 11:29 am
‘John, knowing the difference or not, surely what Dr Fairlie said still stands.
“Dr Ian Fairlie, an expert in radiation and radioactivity, stated that fusion reactors routinely release radiation into the atmosphere via cooling water for the reactor which contaminates ALL areas down stream and down wind.”’
Maybes you could post a link to that Republic? I am quite happy to accept I got it wrong, if you can provide any evidence I got it wrong.
Meantime, I am going to rely on the fact that nobody has managed to get any practical working fusion reactor going anywhere in the world, so anybody’s claims about routine contamination, no matter how much of an expert they may be, can be nothing but mince.
Tell you what though, not only would the first group to get nuclear fusion working be all over the MSM for weeks, it would be an ideal startup technology for Scotland to get heavily involved with. Cheap, copious, clean energy that would make the North Sea oil and gas bonanza look like a paraffin lamp compared to a halogen floodlight.
@ Rev and Ronnie Anderson: many thanks for organising that cake to mark Craig Murray’s predicament and letting us know about it. I hope the Wingers get-together was enjoyed by all.
I hope too that Craig has been swamped with emails, cards and letters.
Perhaps Keith Brown will respond to the Justice campaign letter requesting he release Craig due to the covid outbreak on Craig’s corridor – not holding my breath, however.
@James Che 1.08 pm
I wondered how long it would take the low voltage lightbulb of the nativist contingent to flicker into life, and here we have it. First James was sure I was some kind of infiltrator in Alba, now I no longer “think or act in a Scottish way”.
So presumably Scottishness is like a holiday sun tan that sloughs off after exposure to foreign climes, rendering poor unfortunates thinking or acting in a foreign way.
Michty me: if the blood and soil nativism and regressive ethno-nationalism wasn’t bad enough, now we have to think and act in Scottish ways? Is there some kind of test I can swot up on to make my thought processes and actions Scottish enough for you James? Must I wear a kilt for a certain number of days per year, or memorise passages of Burns perhaps? Shall I effect not to be bothered by the poor performance of national sports teams whilst banging on endlessly about not being able to watch them live on terrestrial TV?
As you can imagine I’m very keen to know what it is is I need to do in order to be considered Scottish enough by an online no-mark and snivelling coward hiding behind his online anonymity so he can throw rocks at people who point out the Emperor has no clothes.
If you’re an example of Scottish thought James, the country is in considerably more trouble than I thought. God help us all if you’re the kind of person who thinks they’re qualified for public office.
@Andy Ellis at 11:58 am
With respect Andy, I am unconvinced you have absorbed my argument.
I started by posing the question, “do Project Fear campaigns influence voter’s choices and hence referenda results?”.
Having personally decided that they do, then I reason that we are allowed to discount the results of both referenda that were subject to such campaigns, meaning that both the 2014 and the 2016 results were suspect in Scotland.
If you believe that Project Fear campaigns have no influence, then you have to accept that Scotland is fcked: no stomach for Indy and no route to get back into the EU.
What you are not allowed to do, by the laws of logic and reason, is argue that Scotland was so influenced by Project Fear in 2014 that it “wrongly” voted to remain in the UK, yet was miraculously totally immune to Project Fear in 2016 and “correctly” voted to remain in the EU.
Not saying you apply this selective logic in support of the positions you are scrambling to uphold you understand, but plenty here do.
“If you think the overwhelming majority of Scots who voted to remain in the EU …”
I guess perception is all Andy. Of those who turned out to vote, a majority did indeed vote to remain in the EU. But if you add those who did not vote to those who voted to leave, the Remainers were trounced.
So not really an “overwhelming majority”.
John Main says:
17 October, 2021 at 10:48 am
@stonefree – 16 October, 2021 at 11:32 pm
One is joining the other dividing,
as for the plant I referred to the actual life of the plant
as for the actual site that Gibson spoke of it is not Hunterson but she has now corrected it to Ardeer ( it is not the first time the SNP have got locations wrong in the area,) and the prospect of 2000 jobs, it become slightly more complex as that site is filled with very questionable materials
The recent escapade over the ex-Shell site and waste disposal on that site where a school is supposed to be built
Simply put they are paying to dollar for a contaminated site , and then buying another site to dump that contamination on , school gets built ,but the waste has not been dealt with , it’s just moved, to be dealt with in 25 years time
As for the thick comment, well is it better I say “not the brightest”?
I’ve seen her in action there is nothing beyond the “Sturgeon Hymn Book”
@Robert Hughes 1.11 pm
We’re just going round in circles Robert.
“Scots have the ultimate right to determine their destiny.”
Yes they do: ALL Scots, not just those who were born here. After all these months neither you nor any of the other advocates for ditching the 2014 precedent have succeeded in explaining why it is necessary, why we should do it now, and whether it’s a good look.
I accept that the franchise reduction charabanc encompass a range of opinion from “we need to have a period of 24 months residence, but otherwise the 2104 precedent is fine” to out right zoomers insisting you have to have been born here, or lived here for 10 years (or apparently if we listen to James Che having to “think and act in a Scottish way”) before you get a say, but in the end you’re all singing from the same regressive, blood and soil hymn sheet.
The outcome of any such plan would be politically disastrous and electorally self defeating.
In the end your “it means there has to be some criteria to ensure Scots are not , again , denied what they voted for” apologia simply amounts to moving the goalposts to ensure a Yes victory. It’s morally wrong, a huge risk to putting together a pro-Yes majority and will go down like a lead balloon in terms of securing international recognition.
The reason Stu Campbell’s words resonated in his original discussion of the topic of franchise change is that a large number of people in the movement – and those abroad whose support we seek – will be horrified by any such change, and will see the kind of Scotland it which will result as a very different kind of place than the one on offer in 2014. We’re supposed to be making easier for people to vote Yes, not harder. Franchise restriction is the very opposite of what is required.
Stuart MacKay.
I had not thought of it in that way,
But you are quite correct,
No one would expect the people of England to drop their English language because of non speaking people coming into their country,
And no one would expect the English custom of Morris dancers to not wear their traditional old costumes or the pearly kings and queens to stop wearing their traditional garments either,
The welsh have their traditional costumes, as do all other countries. European or eastern, the same with languages
Remember bj attitude to women wearing burkas.
However the Scots were banned from their native customs and language and attempts at re- educating them has been on going through the centuries.
English speak English.
Welsh speak welsh.
And Scots speak Scots…….. eh no that continued language was banned long enough to miss generations.
Andy Ellis says: at 3:51 pm
“We’re just going round in circles Robert.”
That’s some classic dog returning to its own vomit shiz right there… 😉
You swerved this previously on a couple of occasions so I will ask again: What defines “permanent” in the “permanent residence” status regularly mentioned in the various voting franchises other countries utilise? That’s details of franchises which you have listed in your previous comments?
@John Main 3.47 pm
First off, the most glaring thing comes at the end of your post: we can discount those who don’t vote. Those who fail to register a preference don’t get to greet over the result, and nobody else gets to lump those too lazy to participate in with one side of the vote and declare it as a slam dunk that there is therefore no majority. Unless the turnout is so low that people feel uncomfortable with it, that’s not an argument anyone can take seriously, so just don’t do it. Turnout in both the indyref and brexit referendums was high, so nobody can realistically argue they aren’t representative.
I didn’t say Project Fear had no influence: I’m sure it did have an influence, it’s just that the vast majority of people don’t make up their minds on the basis of one issue, whether in elections or referendums.
Like so many others in here, you’re adept at putting words in peoples mouths that they never uttered:
You wrote: “What you are not allowed to do, by the laws of logic and reason, is argue that Scotland was so influenced by Project Fear in 2014 that it “wrongly” voted to remain in the UK, yet was miraculously totally immune to Project Fear in 2016 and “correctly” voted to remain in the EU.”
That’s not what I said: Yes, I do believe the 2014 decision was wrong, because I’m a Scottish nationalist (even if James and his nativist mates think I’m the wrong *kind* of nationalist). Project Fear may be part of the reason, but I actually said other reasons were more pivotal. The reasons for the differential Scotland/UK brexit result are also many and various. Euro scepticism had shallower roots in Scotland because it was and is heavily identified in England with little Englanderism, small “c” conservatism, and antipathy to immigrants.
Someone in this conversation is certainly scrambling John, bit it sure ain’t me. Anyone who can come out with the tired old tripe of adding no voters to the number who voted leave in Scotland for the brexit referendum and declare that there was no majority can’t really be trusted to argue in good faith.
When in Rome do as the Romans’ do,
Ie, adjust to the customs, their food, their view of the world etc, adapt to the culture, language and traditions,
It’s not wise to bulldoze through all these things with out pausing for thought of how the locals will may well perceive an intruder. Wether you are in Iraq or Germany, England, Poland, France or Scotland. To antagonise and verbally abuse any of the natives people of any these countries would endow you with the same response.
When in Rome……………….
@Dan 4.06 pm
It’s possible I may have missed the odd post in the tsunami of nativist bullshit and allegations that I’m an MI5 plant / Sturgeonista shill / not Scottish enough Dan.
The answer to your question was in the detailed responses at the time, from memory with links to the learned papers quoted. I recall in one of the earliest responses some months ago actually reproducing the list in a BTL post here, which was (stun us with another) totally ignored.
Doubtless it didn’t fit with the nativist narrative that “no other country allowed people who weren’t born there to participate in referendums” (the opposite is true) or alternatively that residence criteria were the norm (they aren’t) and that residence criteria should be extended (the few that there is evidence for are usually relatively short). Of course when that didn’t work the spurious post independence citizenship criteria was wheeled out, as though that was some slam dunk response.
Since you’re in learning mode, here’s the link:
https://www.catedraferratermora.cat/docs/Posts/Who-is-entitled-to-vote.pdf
(Section 8, table 3, Pages 44-46.)
Go do!
Putting words in people’s mouths.
James is quite well aware that turn and twist belongs elsewhere.
I am still waiting for an apology for supposedly calling you an entryist,
Those words did not come out of my mouth,
You accused me of them.
I waited for you to apologise to me for falsely putting those words in my mouth for nearly a month now.
But you are never wrong and we can all see that is your position.
I always knew whom said that as others did,
But you’re so angry and aggressive,
Most times I ignore relating to you directly
I never mention you’re name now so you don’t get angry.
Whatever you respond to has not been specifically directed is abstract in person from my own point of view, is for you’re conscience to bite.
James Che
> However the Scots were banned from their native customs and language and attempts at re- educating them has been on going through the centuries.
It’s clearly still continuing – whether it’s out of malice or simply habit is open to question.
I’m of the same opinion as the Rev. Overt nationalism is unhelpful in the current climate – it’s too easy a target. However at the same time there needs to be some way of redressing the balance so that people get a chance to make their own minds up on the issue of independence.
Maybe the debate need to be reframed as “Ban the BBC”. Then at least both sides could agree and we’d get an outcome that benefited all.
BTW I just added Len Pennie’s You Tube channel to http://www.voices.scot/. You can’t watch these videos without seeing that Scots should be an every day language, maybe even the official language of the county. Denying that in preference to the blandness of international English seems a poor choice indeed.
I’d have added the link to Pennie’s You Tube channel but the post got put into moderation when I tried.
Residential status is easily established by where your Covid passport was issued. If you had both jabs in Scotland you had to have been registered to a medical practice north of the border and present for both, or all three, jabs under the Scottish NHS. Not perfect but simply to administer. Not contentious at all.
I’ll get my coat.
“Maybes you could post a link to that Republic? I am quite happy to accept I got it wrong, if you can provide any evidence I got it wrong.”
John Main @3.11pm
My point John wasn’t whether they exist or not, my point was that Dr Fairlie pointed out that they will produce radiation and radioactive byproducts.
https://www.ianfairlie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-not-the-answer-to-our-energy-needs/
@James Che 4.36 pm
I just don’t trust you James. You’ve been proven wrong and apologised in the past and I accepted in good grace. I picked you up on the other allegation at the time and you certainly didn’t deny it at the time: indeed as I recall you doubled down on it. Entryist may not have been the exact word and I didn’t bother or indeed think to screen shot the exchange, but the allegation was definitely made by you that I was essentially joining Alba under false pretences.
The reason it stuck in my mind was that it was around the same time as Gareth Wardell had made spurious and totally unfounded allegations that I’d contacted Stu Campbell about him, which had absolutely no basis in fact. Like you he lacked the courage to own his mistake, retract and apologise.
People will tend to react badly when some snivelling anonymous coward on the internet makes allegations about them online James. You purport to be an Alba member, one who has been asked to join the party by Alex himself and who has thought of standing for office. So far – assuming you’re not just a fantasist who made that all up – you’re not making a great impression by traducing a fellow party member. Doubtless the party will have a view on that: perhaps I’ll ask at the branch meeting on Wednesday. Let me know what branch you’re in and we’ll see what the outcome is shall we? After all, if you have nothing to fear……
Andy’s taking the divorce well…all alone in his ivory tower, getting high on the smell of his own shite.
Rev Stu has retired, yet despite that obvious gap in the market Andy’s own blogs lie dormant as he writes screeds of drivel btl here…mainly stuffed with redundancy, but always projecting.
He’s like those blokes from the Fast Show; Dave that’s always contradicting himself, Sussex Tony and black, black, black. He’s probably got a fat arse anaw, so he’s like that female bloke from the show too. And this week he’ll mostly be eating his own bile. He’s a Colin Hunt.
Embdy know where his coat is?
HAPPY BIRTHDAY CRAIG MURRAY and Many Happy Returns of the Day.
@Scott 5.20 pm
Aw mate, you seem a wee bit obsessed with my posts and my background. You rarely seem to post about anything else, and most of your interactions with me are just sweary barely verbal rants. It’s more than a bit creepy. Mebbe hae a wee rest and a drink or two and go and do something else until the red mist clears, eh?
Of course since you’re such a critic of my blogs and output here, you could always go and spend time on your own blog and stun us with its incisive wit and detailed analysis?
Or maybe not.
Throwing your shit around like the grievance chimp you are seems more your style.
Andy Ellis says:
17 October, 2021 at 5:45 pm
Of course since you’re such a critic of my blogs and output here, you could always go and spend time on your own blog and stun us with its incisive wit and detailed analysis?
—
Bingo!
Well done for highlighting the point I was making.
Your blogs are shite.
Your btl comments are shite.
I was only guessing that your wife said cheerio, but thanks for the confirmation.
I don’t get angry at your ramblings, I laugh at them. I even splatter my coffee on occasion.
I gave up lilac wine years ago, maybe you should do it today….ya fanny.
@Stuart MacKay 2.49 pm
“Either stance seems well equipped to frighten the soft-noes. Granted, Blood and Soil when taken to the extremes of our Germanic or Slavic cousins is to be guarded against at all costs. However there’s no history of that in Scotland that I’m aware of.”
I know you to be one of the (few remaining?) more thoughtful posters BTL here Stuart, who is at least open to having a discussion and is not an obvious troll, abuser or moon howler. You question is valid, even if – given the past few months exchanges on here – bound to prove somewhat……let’s say incendiary. 🙂
With respect to your general point, I think most people would accept that there IS a difference between the civic nationalism that was proposed by the Scottish and Catalan independence movements in recent years in particular, and the kind of ethnic or “blood and soil” nationalism represented by say the more recent populist and right of centre governments in Poland, Hungary, Austrai etc, or by AFD in Germany, the Front National / Le Pen in France or even UKIP and the brexiteers in the UK.
We could spend many hours and much ink discussing the differences in policy positions, philosophies, history etc, but I think we can all safely say we’d know one of either type when we got to know what type of nation and society they were trying to construct. Perhaps the debate does generate more heat than light: such debates often do, and social media tends to magnify rather than shrink differences.
I don’t think increasing taxes on second homes, promoting Scots or Gaelic, or trying to prioritise the availability of opportunities locally before looking abroad are necessary incompatible with being a civic nationalist, or with the policies that could and should be espoused by civic nationalists generally. The devil would lie in the detail. Many countries have limits on second home ownership, higher taxation for them or even a secondary market with higher prices for those who are not local.
The proximate cause of the debate here over the past few months related specifically to plans to ditch the 2014 precedent and restrict the franchise used then for one which potentially deprived 20% residents of their say in any future referendum, on the basis that non-Scots born voters had swung the 2014 from Yes to No. For many (tho’ not I accept all) in the movement that’s a pretty fundamental change, and not one that is for the better.
Coming on top of everything else that has happened in the past few years (the implosion of the SNP, the attempted fit up of Salmond, failure to exploit brexit, GRA reform, the HCB, the jailing of Craig Murray and others, the failure to make any progress on #indyref2, the othering of gender critical women in the movement and abuse of prominent figures like Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine amongst others) it’s perhaps not surprising that some have just decided to give up, or at least decelerate and disengage until there seems to be more clarity about what direction the movement is heading.
It certainly doesn’t feel the same as it used to, and its hard to fault Stu Campbell and others for deciding to just do something else instead. I have a suspicion when this place finally pulls down the shutters folk will find other avenues. Hopefully they still lead ultimately to the same destination, but I think if the past few months in here have shown me anything it is that I’d sooner be circumcised with a rusty Stanley knife than accompany some of the pieces of work who have been posting below the line here on that journey, and I don’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut if we are all supposed to want the same thing in the end.
No legal reason why Scotland cannot just withdraw from the Treaty of Union.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/nicola-sturgeon-urged-to-pull-out-snp-mps-from-westminister-to-force-indyref2/ar-AAPDeiV?ocid=msedgntp
However that treacherous shit Sturgeon will never do it.
@Scott 5.55 pm
Way to prove my point bud.
– sweary non verbal rant: check
– post has nothing to say about any issue under discussion but is entirely devoted to abusing me: check
– creepy obsession with my moribund blog and slagging off my contributions here: check.
– signs off with “ya fanny” or similar: check
It’s probably the meths not the lilac wine you had to give up. The wife will have a chuckle at your inanities later. She’ll think you’re creepy as fuck too.
Andy Ellis says:
17 October, 2021 at 6:18 pm
I think most people would accept that there IS a difference between the civic nationalism that was proposed by the Scottish and Catalan independence movements in recent years in particular, and the kind of ethnic or “blood and soil” nationalism represented by say the more recent populist and right of centre governments in Poland, Hungary, Austrai etc, or by AFD in Germany, the Front National / Le Pen in France or even UKIP and the brexiteers in the UK.
We could spend many hours and much ink discussing the differences in policy positions, philosophies, history etc, but I think we can all safely say we’d know one of either type when we got to know what type of nation and society they were trying to construct. Perhaps the debate does generate more heat than light: such debates often do, and social media tends to magnify rather than shrink differences.
I don’t think increasing taxes on second homes, promoting Scots or Gaelic, or trying to prioritise the availability of opportunities locally before looking abroad are necessary incompatible with being a civic nationalist, or with the policies that could and should be espoused by civic nationalists generally. The devil would lie in the detail. Many countries have limits on second home ownership, higher taxation for them or even a secondary market with higher prices for those who are not local.
The proximate cause of the debate here over the past few months related specifically to plans to ditch the 2014 precedent and restrict the franchise used then for one which potentially deprived 20% residents of their say in any future referendum, on the basis that non-Scots born voters had swung the 2014 from Yes to No. For many (tho’ not I accept all) in the movement that’s a pretty fundamental change, and not one that is for the better.
I have a suspicion when this place finally pulls down the shutters folk will find other avenues. Hopefully they still lead ultimately to the same destination, but I think if the past few months in here have shown me anything it is that I’d sooner be circumcised with a rusty Stanley knife than accompany some of the pieces of work who have been posting below the line here on that journey, and I don’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut if we are all supposed to want the same thing in the end.
—
You’ve already told us that you only want a referendum on your terms or else you’ll campaign for ‘No’.
Surely breaking away from the brexiteers is a noble cause?
Part-time investors should be subject to ‘special rules’, no? Market manipulation isn’t to be encouraged, I’da thunk…
Precedent isn’t in Scotland, merely a guide.
Knock yourself out on that last point.
@Scott 6.45 pm
1) “You’ve already told us that you only want a referendum on your terms or else you’ll campaign for ‘No’.”
I said that in particular circumstance I would yes: that’d include if the movement in future stood on a platform of, and somehow managed to achieve, a referendum which significantly restricted the 2014 franchise. Most people will have red lines about any number of issues Scott: I’ve heard quite a few women recently start to cast doubt on whether they could vote for independence under the SNP due to GRA/TRA and self-ID for example. Unconditional support may be something you’re prepared to give: it’d be entirely unsurprising given your output.
2) “Surely breaking away from the brexiteers is a noble cause?”
It’s an added advantage to be distanced from and in a different country from, the kind of brexiteers, little Englanders and UKIPers I was seeing more and more of before I left England certainly, but I’m not personally in favour of Scotland joining the EU post indy anyway. I think we should go for the Norway option.
3) “Part-time investors should be subject to ‘special rules’, no? Market manipulation isn’t to be encouraged, I’da thunk…”
No idea what you’re on about. It may have made sense to you…..
4) “Precedent isn’t in Scotland, merely a guide.”
The presupposition will be that #indyref2 would be on the same terms as #indyref1. It’s much harder – though by no means impossible – for the britnats to wriggle out of granting it on the same terms as they did in 2014. Of course, it could be argue the “change of circumstances” line works both ways. Trying to negotiate a change in the franchise will of course be pounced on by eager britnats as an example of those nasty ethnic nationalists trying to move the goalposts and queer the pitch. Even if they were inclined to agree, the negotiations on the Edinburgh Agreement would tend to suggest they’d demand something in return.
It’s a moot point anyway, because we aren’t getting a referendum anytime soon.
The SNP officials are absolutely hopeless when the TV media
attack them with stats.
Humza was battered with poor Ambulance response times in Scotland.
Why not arm yourself with the performance in Tory England.
Have a look at how great Bojoland are doing.
A paramedic working in London told BBC News he had encountered patients left waiting up to 12 hours for an ambulance in the last week.
One patient in London with a broken leg had to wait outside at night for six hours before an ambulance arrived to collect him, he said.
On another occasion, paramedics were called to attend to a young man with Covid-19 whose oxygen levels were “so low”. He was given oxygen when they arrived – but that was eight hours after the ambulance was called.
Incidents such as these are “dangerous” and the service is “on its knees”, the paramedic added.
London 999 calls as high as Covid first wave peak
Ambulance service records busiest day ever
The figures also show that at one point on Monday this week more than 700 patients were left waiting for an ambulance to arrive in London when none was available.
Different statistics obtained by BBC News highlight the number of hours spent waiting to offload patients at hospitals half an hour after ambulances arrived at hospitals in the South East.
Andy Ellis says: at 4:32 pm
“It’s possible I may have missed the odd post in the tsunami of nativist bullshit…”
LOL I’m afraid I find that a little hard to believe when you’ll use virtually any opportunity to engage in creating your own tsunami to flood btl discourse, with everything bar actually discussing what you think should define permanent residence.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/tidying-up/comment-page-1/#comment-2678484
https://wingsoverscotland.com/tidying-up/comment-page-2/#comment-2678661
Anyway, just why would campaigning for Indy have to be the exact same as last time anyway? Everything has changed with established powers showing their corrupt hands in manipulating the electorate to bring us to where we find ourselves today, using the likes of Cambridge Analytica et all.
And closer to home the carrot dangling for votes on the premise they were Indy mandates by the current supposed political wings of the Indy Movement, who are now busy foisting policies onto the electorate that we don’t want. Whilst they’re also attempting to remove all threats to protect their cosy gravy train existences as seen with Craig Murray’s incarceration, along with so many other Pro-Indy voices being hounded.
Too right things will be different, and they need to be too, coz when someone shows you who they are, best believe them.
The fact that Whitehall was running Project Fear, kinda negates ANY notion that Indyref 1 was even remotely ‘free and fair’.
Sir Nick was given the in-house recognition for his efforts, and Betty bumped him up to a K,Grand Cross no less!
Stepped down to a few nice little earners, notably British Land.
This is what the enemy looks like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Macpherson
/cunt.
@Andy Ellis – 17 October, 2021 at 4:11 pm
@John Main 3.47 pm
“Someone in this conversation is certainly scrambling John, bit it sure ain’t me. Anyone who can come out with the tired old tripe of adding no voters to the number who voted leave in Scotland for the brexit referendum and declare that there was no majority can’t really be trusted to argue in good faith.”
Actually Andy, I am happy to concede this one to you. However, I still believe that your original use of the phrase “overwhelming majority” was and is unjustified by the numbers.
Perhaps you are scrambling when you accuse me of declaring there was no majority? To repeat, I took exception to your phrase “overwhelming majority”.
@John Main 9.10 pm
Oh come on, 62% to 38% with every single one of the 32 council areas voting Yes?
You’re honestly going to cavil at that being described as overwhelming?
Away and give yourself a shake.
First I am waiting for my apology for you’re lying about me.
1st apology I’m waiting for from you, I did not call you an entryist. That was your lie.
2nd apology I am waiting for, I did not purport to be an Alba member, that was you’re lie.
3rd apology I am waiting for from you, is that you admit that I was gracious to apologise for to you, and you accepted that apology graciously, both sides done publicly on this site, copied and kept by myself.
So I am waiting for your apology for saying I didn’t apologise, because that is also a lie.
4th apology I am waiting for is , upon your confusion over a public apology having been made you now are accusing me of being a coward for not making that apology, that you admit I did make.
@Republicofscotland – 17 October, 2021 at 5:18 pm
Thanks for the link. That certainly clarifies that we are discussing nuclear fusion. I still don’t get the connection with Hunterston though. If there is a link showing that EDF is touting that site for a potential fusion reactor I would be interested in that.
Incidentally, the following sentence from Ian Fairlie’s article deserves scrutiny:
“In short, nuclear fusion would not provide cheap, clean, safe or healthy energy and would reduce the funding available for safer and cheaper renewable energies.”
Scotland is awash with turbines (onshore and offshore), hydro-electricity schemes and electricity distribution infrastructure and we are constantly being told that these new renewable generators are now in fact cheaper than the fossil-fueled sources they replace (just like how we were told at the start of the hydro boom post-war that the dams would provide electricity “too cheap to meter”).
Given how cheap all this new electricity is supposed to be, why are prices to consumers going through the roof?
I hope Craig’s birthday goes well within his limited scope. And that he knows a lot of people are thinking of him,
@Andy Ellis – 17 October, 2021 at 9:22 pm
@John Main 9.10 pm
“Oh come on, 62% to 38% with every single one of the 32 council areas voting Yes?
You’re honestly going to cavil at that being described as overwhelming?”
Sure am Andy. To remind you, the question in 2016 was:
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”
The question in 20xx will be something like:
“Should an Independent Scotland apply to pool its sovereignty with and surrender many of its long-waited-for freedoms to the European Union”.
Different times, different question. Hopefully different (prouder, stronger, self-confident, self-reliant) people and a different answer.
@Dan 7.11 pm
I don’t honestly give toss what you believe Dan given some of what you come out with on here. You and your other muckers here are hilarious: either I’m being attacked for not answering every point they ever make, or I’m being criticised for posting too much. Make yer fecking minds up. At least my contributions are in general apropos or in response to someone else’s comments or a direct reply, not just pointless shit flinging from no-marks like Scott and others like him.
A second indyref doesn’t HAVE to be on exactly the same terms. Are you having reading difficulties or did you just hit the vino collapso a bit early? The presumption still has to be that any new indyref – however unlikely it seems right now – will likely be on the same terms.
It won’t matter which side attempts to introduce changes to the 2014 pattern, the other will try to take advantage. Thus britnats will resist attempts to disenfranchise what they’ll see as “natural” No voters. Pro indy folk will resist attempts by Westminster to change the question, or dictate timing or try to exclude 16 & 17 year olds.
If things have changed that much, it would tend to support the argument to discard the referendum route altogether and use plebiscitary elections instead. I have my doubts things will be that different. What the lumpen Scottish electorate seem to have shown us – and particularly the SNP loyalists – is that they lack political judgement and political balls. I definitely think we can believe they’ve shown us who they are.
Can anyone supply a date that Catalan and Spain signed a treaty of union between themselves.
@James Che 9.25 pm
On reflection I do actually apologise WRT number 2 on your list: I now recall on your prompting that you said you had not yet decided whether to join any party, so I do apologise for for asserting otherwise. I may have confused the exchange when I think you said your wife was a member.
As for the rest, no apologies are going to be forthcoming, because you did make such an allegation, and doubled down on it when challenged. You apologised for something else entirely which you got wrong, and I did accept your apology for that, which is why it’s so odd you’re making a meal of admitting your error on the other – much more serious – lie.
That’s what makes you a coward and demonstrates you have no sense of decency James.
Andy Ellis says:
17 October, 2021 at 9:38 pm
@Dan 7.11 pm
I don’t honestly give toss what you believe Dan given some of what you come out with on here. You and your other muckers here are hilarious: either I’m being attacked for not answering every point they ever make, or I’m being criticised for posting too much. Make yer fecking minds up. At least my contributions are in general apropos or in response to someone else’s comments or a direct reply, not just pointless shit flinging from no-marks like Scott and others like him.
—
Of course you give a toss, Miss Ellis.
If someone agrees with you, they’re your pal.
If someone calls you out, you become a petulant child.
You get criticised for having no coherent position on anything other than ‘it’s Fandandy’s way or no way’ and are verbose beyond rationality when projecting all your chips.
You need your hole, obviously. It’s obvious why you can’t get it.
@ Andy Ellis at 9.38pm
Gonnae jist respond with what you understand permanent residence means. If we can get that oot the way it might allow things to move along.
Now in the mind of some, I’m jist your average great un-washed moonhowling un-educated natavist roaster, but even with such impediments I’ve still manged to locate something that may assist you in manifesting the Andy Ellis definition of Permanent Residence.
Permanent – Lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely.
Residence – The fact of living in a particular place.
As for claiming victimhood on you posting too little or too much; Maybe if you engaged in jist a wee bitty less o’ the shit hurling yersel, and actually answered the more relevant points in folks’ posts, that would ease any anxiety and positively progress discussions.
I never did apologise for two things, simple due to the fact I did not say both,
I apologised for saying it in error. The same day.
You have taken a month to retract and apologise for what you accused me of.
Either we are both liars or both made an error and we both accept that graciously,
Stuart MacKay “Scots should be an every day language, maybe even the official language of the county.”
Stuart, I’m not having a go, but Scots IS an every day language. I’m hearing this argument more often these days, particularly from people who are part of the Academic or Middle class who have this romanticised vision of the country being united under ‘wan mither tongue’.
If you or anybody else isn’t hearing it, it’s simply because you’re not spending enough time with working class people like me.
The likes of Alf Baird, part of the academic class i refer to, are guilty of promulgating a myth that we’re losing our identity and language -and this is the dangerous part – due to an agenda set by our supposed oppressive English colonial masters.
Of course, as you can imagine, the type of people who are looking for excuses to be subjugated victims are all lapping it up.
Language is always undergoing a process of evolution anyway, and it’s inevitable that Scots will change – but not through the kind of colonialism finding traction here and on other Indy sites.
If the last 18 months has shown us anything its that 21st century colonialism takes the shape of multi-billion dollar Corporations – and it’s the American English being pushed by the likes of Big Tech in particular that will structure how our language develops.
BTW, I’m all for your suggestion to make Scots ‘an’ official language of Scotland – just not ‘the’ official language.
Couldn’t agree more with Fred re the romanticisation of Scots language by the establishment. . I was a postgrad at Glasgow Uni when SNP lickspittle Alasdair Allan (Sturgeon’s henchman when she was hanging around the SRC), pretended to run the student council. He proudly got his masters in “auld Scots”. Which was of great interest to the chuntering classes. There followed a hilarious commentary from a bool mouthed TV News anchor (Now there’s an Americanism we’ve adopted). ‘ “A weel Kent boay or some such” . Allan then went through an excruciating routine of talking like a jakey in a Greenock pub. My dear departed mum declared that she used to “get us telt ” when we spoke like that”. I am not arguing for the suppression of our language, However, the laughable flummery of Allan a man with all the commitment to essential Scottish identity of a passing tourist buying a Russ Abott Scotland wig was something to behold.
” Yes they do: ALL Scots, not just those who were born here.”
Ah ! the magical alchemy wherein anyone who passes North of Greta Green can become Caledonians . Ach aye the noo n’aw that .
Lets call them Trans-Scots .
ALL notions of * identity * are essentially vaporous , none more so than the one we call ” me ” : but good luck getting the majority of non-native residents in Scotland to consider themselves anything other than the nationality they were born with/into
Dorothy Devine says:
17 October, 2021 at 12:45 pm
“Dear Rev. Stu, I sure do miss you and it looks like aliens have infected this site with far too much to say for themselves.”
Well said, Dorothy, couldn’t agree more!
Except I wouldn’t be so polite …
What was once a bastion of considered debate, insightful comment and humour has descended into a testosterone-laden, insult-hurling, ego ridden sh*t show amongst a few ignorant numpties who need to get a life.
Rev, you say ‘This post will be removed in due time.’ – respectfully, might that time be now?
@ Dan 11.07 pm
You seem to have a bit of thing about me doing your homework for you and defining what is meant by permanent residence. Anybody can reproduce dictionary definitions of the words mate. The hard thing is doing the research and showing what it is about the residence criteria the nativists in this debate are going to change isn’t it?
So fill your boots. Let’s have that debate about which people who could vote in 2014 you are proposing we deprive of a vote the next time round, and on what basis. As others have noted, the franchise used in 2014 was pretty widely accepted, so it’s incumbent on those pushing for change to show why a residence based criteria, or franchise based on electoral registers, should now be changed to using blood lines, birth place or “x” years length of residence, which has not been used in other independence referendums.
We hear a lot about excluding students, second home owners or people who aren’t “permanent residents”, but if someone moves here for work – or moved here a few years ago – are you honestly saying that you’re going to be looking in your crystal ball and predicting if they’re really “permanent” enough? How would such a scheme work, who would police it and pay for it? Apart from the well rehearsed arguments from Stu’s original Twitter thread that nativist still haven’t come within a country mile of answering, even if we accept there’s a case to be made for proposing minor changes, isn’t it using a sledgehammer to crack a nut?
Of course I don’t expect those who are convinced of the nativist argument to accept that it’s morally wrong, counter productive electorally and terrible politics visually to dump civic nationalism, but it’s not even clear that they really have a realistic scheme or have identified those who voted last time that they nor want to exclude, or that the game would be worth the candle even if they could do so.
On the importance of the oppressed (i.e. neither taught in schools or given authority) Scots language as a determinant of independence, socio-linguistic prejudice, cultural division of labour, and resultant Scottish Cultural Cringe:
https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2021/08/15/scotland-in-the-21st-century-8/
//www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/scotland-s-civil-service-deletes-mother-from-maternity-policy-after-stonewall-pressure/ar-AAPzN9e?ocid=msedgntp
I’m really hopeless at this so I hope it works.
Looks like we no longer have a Scottish National Party more a Stonewall National Party -though I can’t remember voting for it.
Dorothy Devine.
Thanks for that info.
Here is some thing else that is being deleted from the National library of Scotland,
The word colonialism.
They are rearranging the vocabulary so as not to hurt people’s feelings, about slavery.
The world has gone crazy.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
17 October,at 10:03 am
“If it wouldn’t distract everyone from ripping holes in each other too much,…..”
———————–
Aunty Flo says:
Dorothy D
“Dear Rev. Stu, I sure do miss you and it looks like aliens have infected this site with far too much to say for themselves.”
Well said, Dorothy, couldn’t agree more!
Except I wouldn’t be so polite …”
———————
I agree entirely with all three of you.
All the yards an’ yards of comments about “blood an’ Soil”, who gets to vote, referendum residency. It’s just a soul destroying death by a thousand details of millimeters.
How to kill off a thread in one long excruciating, mind numbing torture.
There won’t be a referendum.
The SNP don’t want one, BoJo/WM won’t give either, it’s a blind alley to a dead end and thankfully other bloggers and a lot more of Scots are beginning to grasp the fact that a Ref. isn’t going anywhere.
It’s Scots Sovereignty and the use of it by a truly SCOTTISH Government with a steel backbone and the knowledge of how to wield the pen.
Robert Hughes.
You could be on to something there,
There are a few conversations that need to be held and discussed in Scotland on how we gain independence.
The voting franchise,
From a logical point of view, one of those first discussions should be on weather the Scots ever entered into the treaty of the union,
For the Scots never voted to join the treaty.
And it is a big elephant in the room.
Now I hear a lot of voices saying that is because we did not have voting in 1707.
All that doors is re- affirm the facts,
That Scotland never voted to join.
Some would suggest by twisting words and history that is what we voted for in 20014,
But by logic and reality of facts this was not the question put to the Scots in 2014.
We talk about ending the treaty of the union as if it had included us,
But by historical fact we can not find a voting franchise of any sort for the Scottish people in 1707. We can find no historical mention of records that the treaty was anything other than a business deal with the commissioners.
The commissioners did not hold sovereignty over Scotland in 1707.
The commissioners did not hold sovereignty over the Scots in 1707.
So we need to recognise who exactly entered into a treaty of union with England in 1707 if it was not the Scots or Scotland.
As it is recorded in quite a few documents, historical notes by historians and poetry, the Scots did indeed vote indirectly but publicly.
They Scots rebelled and there were riots of in the streets and protest against joining the treaty of the union in 1707,
The commissioners had to run and hide for cover, from a large crowd
That in of it self is a good indication of wether the Scots or there kingdom of Scotland was in agreement to joining a treaty with England.
However on the evidence provided by both Scottish and English historians and historical records from that time period, we find no defining indication that could record the Scots as joining the treaty of the union,
In fact the opposite occurs, as there was no vote, ( ie) “ No evidence “. That the Scots and their country of Scotland had agreed to be joined.
And second, that the Scots rebelled against the proposition of a treaty of the union with England.
@ James Che
Indeed, I’m not convinced that back in 1707 a democratic process and franchise which embraced the tenets of civic nationalism was utilsed in the establishing the will of the Scots as to whether they should enter into the Union.
Was there even a single mandate from the Scots? Ye ken, Gold Standard stylée.
And even more importantly in matters of self-determination, jist what did the external interests of the wider international community make of the process?
Stuart McHardy article on suppression of opposition to the Union over many years.
https://archive.is/XbMUb
It cannot be understated that there is a treaty of union,
We certainly can observe this from historical records,
A precise question, brings a definitive answer.
Who signed the treaty of the union, = The Commissioners, The Barons and churches of the three estates.
So an accurate answer.
The Three Estates are signed into a treaty of union with England.
James Che
You are heading in completely the wrong direction James.
You wrote “From a logical point of view, one of those first discussions should be on weather the Scots ever entered into the treaty of the union,For the Scots never voted to join the treaty. And it is a big elephant in the room.”
… any strategy the assumes the re-education of “the people of Scotland” and the the revisionism required to achieve that – is dead in the water from day 1. Obviously, the only people that would be the slightest interest in that – are the Yessers, who already want Independence.
… implicitly, you seek to “rule out” the outcome of the 2014 referendum – where, in recent times, the people of SCotland voted to be/remain part of the UNion. In comparison to all of the intellectual discussion about 300 year old treaties – that decision trumps everything – and any attempt to argue otherwise stinks of anti-democracy.
The answer is simple James (and frankly, no other alternative can/will work).
You need to convince a majority of the voters in Scotland of the benefits of Independence – then you will get it. If you don’t you won’t.
Now I see why Dave’s back!
Alternatives to the Fix 2 need keeping outside the Overton window.
Were the three estates elected into their position by sovereign Scots and their kingdom of Scotland in 1706 or 1707 legally as representing Scots = NO.
Were any of the Scottish Commissioners elected to their position by the sovereign Scots and their kingdom of Scotland in 1706 or 1707 as representing Scots = NO.
Did the three estates elect themselves as independents actors = YES.
So did Scotland and the Scots hand their sovereignty to the unelected commissioners = NO.
By thoroughly digging into history and records we discover that only the commissioners acting independently from the Scots and the rest of Scotland entered themselves into a fraudulent treaty
James
… you are not even convincing Wings regulars that you are right – you have no chance with the rest.
But what do I know eh.
Oooh! Oooh!
Seems if you’re stuck in a tight spot, miles from home, needing a wee drink of water and there’s no water anywhere except in a burn, just sook it through your graphene coat and you’ll be fine….
(Just kidding. I’ve no idea if it works. Straight away I see one potential problem sooking water through a waterproof coat, but I’m just having a giggle, so it’s fine).
https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202100240242/
The Treaty of the union exists,
It exists for England’s parliament to be joined in union with the the independent unelected commissioners whom signed the treaty in 1707.
The independent commissioners acted for the independent unelected three three Estates.
Neither of which held sovereignty over Scotland or the Scots in 1707,
As Lord Cooper states in the court of sessions in obita dicta 1953.
The Three Estates did not hold untrammelled sovereignty in 1707.
The results of records, of history, of historians, of a Court of Sessions Finds that the Scots were not in the treaty of the union for many reasons,
And that is the gap in history that the parliament of England and the three estates of Scotland backfilled with propaganda,
https://grumpyscottishman.wordpress.com/2021/10/18/when-someone-wants-all-that-you-have-guest-post-by-lorncal/
As others have referred to in earlier posts, the sovereignty of the Scots in their country has remained throughout.
It has survived the treaty of the union,
It has survived the devolved government
It survived the 2014 referendum.
For none of the above even exists in English legalese or Scots law legalese , or can take place or effect without a vote from the sovereign Scots in Scotland to the agreement of 1707. Which no evidence can be found.
The treaty of the union did not incorporate/ include the sovereign Scottish people as Lord Cooper pointed out in 1953.
The penny drops when we question the reason for the “claim of right” in writing by the English Parliament to the Scots,
The question arises again when the treaty of supposed union details and articles are read,
And why Scots law had to remain.
And why the British monarch can wear the Scottish crown but cannot be king or queen of Scots.
As stated by a monarch herself.
The rest has been gap filled propaganda for 300 years. And every variety of unionist under the sun will attempt to dismantle the facts.
But will be unable to provide evidence or proof that the Three Estates held untrammelled sole sovereignty over Scots or Scotland in 1707.
Graf Midgehunter says:
‘All the yards an’ yards of comments about “blood an’ Soil”, who gets to vote, referendum residency. It’s just a soul destroying death by a thousand details of millimeters.
How to kill off a thread in one long excruciating, mind numbing torture.’
This thread, or this institution, or whatever word you use to describe WoS, is on life-support because it is leaderless.
And this planet and everything in it is all about leadership. Deterioration in quality is what happens when anything is devoid of leadership. There is no control, no direction. It is every man for himself.
But Wings pales into insignificance when compared to the complete breakdown of any semblance of national pride or cohesion, such as we have right now in Scotland.
We cannot have a strong, just, prosperous, united, magnanimous, independent country, a country at peace with itself, without genuine leadership.
Sadly, inspirational leaders don’t come around too often, and we have none on the horizon. Until we find one, I fear the corollary may be similar to that of the late 13th century, when one leader did emerge, only to be sold out by the establishment, and we continued to tear each other apart for some time thereafter.
Dorothy
Absolutely, I’d hate to get stuck in a lift with these posters.
And i’m ashamed there are so few reactions to the rev/Ronnie post re Craig.
Trying to source which queen stated that, and see if that is correct. Or more propaganda.
Ebok,
I feel the same way,
There will always be obstacles in place, and as in the past there are those that would gladly oppose or create divide to maintain no way forward for Scotland and its people whom have every right to object with the crazy new promotion of all things seeming to harm parents women and children. And the safety of men whom seem to be a targets just as much.
We can only hope that if we cannot get past the divide then we have to question the origins of the beginning more thoroughly,
In support of Barrheadboy, I heartily support that some people are using their heads to push independence on the world stage when the opportunity presents itself on a tablet.
Not just talking shops, moaning and groaning but actually taking action. Civil disobedience, mass informal gatherings, Saltires everywhere, talk to foreign TV teams…..!
Make yourself big and loud. 🙂
https://www.barrheadboy.com/a-once-in-a-lifetime-opportunity/
Dan.
There is definitely nothing democratic regards the origins of the treaty of the union.
And nothing democratic in either parliament for not being openly honest about how the Scots as sovereign people never became legally encapsulated into the treaty of the union.
Ebok says: at 1:11 pm
Graf Midgehunter says:
‘All the yards an’ yards of comments about “blood an’ Soil”, who gets to vote, referendum residency. It’s just a soul destroying death by a thousand details of millimeters.
How to kill off a thread in one long excruciating, mind numbing torture.’
This thread, or this institution, or whatever word you use to describe WoS, is on life-support because it is leaderless.
And this planet and everything in it is all about leadership. Deterioration in quality is what happens when anything is devoid of leadership. There is no control, no direction. It is every man for himself.
———————-
Ebok
I absolutely agree with you.
We Scots have Sovereignty. We have the process of how to achieve our independence back, right in front of our eyes by using our Sovereignty to take the decisions for ourselves and to tell – NOT ASK – WM what we are going to DO.
But we do not have the leadership, the champions of Scotland who are willing or have the guts to stand up for Scotland and show everyone the way forward.
WE are truly in the grip of a “Vichy” group of collaboraters.
collaboraters. sorry collaborators
LukeWarmDave lays waste to Nicola Sturgeon’s credibility in his latest video on twitter, https://twitter.com/DaveLukewarm
If you’re not into twitter then head over to http://www.voices.scot where you can see the video from the YouTube channel – sorry for the shameless plug (not really) but this post would be cast into moderation if I posted the link directly.
Independence at ANY price? No way, I for one have no wish to live amongst the Stureonistas who have appeared all over Argyll, or the deranged members of the GreenTartan Scottish administration.
To compound the felony these people want to pass our freedom over to the tender mercies of the ECJ.
We must be sure that our independence includes a strong government dedicated to freedom of speech and thought, protects our women and children and is capable of inspiring a moribund population to achieve greatness…..It will take a decade to achieve even if we rid ourselves of the Holyrood parasites. We have a whole population to set free.
Graf Midgehunter.
Thanks for the link,
Absolutely delighted with barrheadboys idea, it is brilliant to extend it to the independence supporters anywhere and everywhere on the routes or around airports and in Glasgow itself.
On the borders etc.
Let us turn Scotland into a “withdraw from the treaty of the union”, and Scottish independence in those weeks.
Cameras catching uncontrolled friendly Scots. 🙂
Stuart MacKay says: at 2:42 pm
…. sorry for the shameless plug (not really)… 🙂
I’m not shameless and I think everyone should have the link bookmarked as a source of Blogs and interesting articles concerning Scotland and its Independence.
https://www.voices.scot/
How small is Scotland?
Who said we can’t be equal partners…?
https://twitter.com/limpet67/status/1449816014141542402
Graf Midgehunter
Thanks for the compliment, I’m glad you find it useful.
Originally the idea was to gather the indy bloggers in one, easy to find place and hopefully encourage more people to blog. That’s still the basic idea but now I’ve added youtube channels and people like Len Pennie it’s become more of a “media outlet” like Munguin’s New Republic than a ragged collection of blogs. In my more fevered moments I have the idea that it would replace The National as the place for indy news. Not exactly a high bar to clear but I’d consider it progress.
I’ve managed to block out some free time to work on it and add new features. For example, I’ve just added a “What’s New” page where you can see what’s being added (or removed), https://www.voices.scot/news/ Hopefully it will look a bit more polished in the near future
Sturgeons witchfinder generals the COPFS, have already paid out £35 million pounds of Scottish taxpayers money to Rangers FC individuals for malicious prosecutions, which is a speciality of the COPFS, the figure is expected to climb well over the £40 million mark.
Look out for million more of taxpayers cash being paid out due to the maliciousness of Sturgeons COPFS.
“It was reported in August that New York based Duff and Phelps is seeking a £120m pay out from the Crown Office for reputational damage, after initially suing for £60m.”
Graf Midgehunter @3.40pm.
That image in the link includes Wales, Wales should not be added to show the difference in size between Scotland and England, which if Wales is removed shows that there not much in it landmass wise between Scotland and England.
Aye ROS, no body is saying much about the hundreds of millions being shelled out in compo for the iciois actions of the Police and the COPFS.
If we just don’t talk about it then everyone will be happy in our wee jokey country.
Carol Monaghan MP has complained about the abuse she has recieved on Social media resulting in her using a safe house.This stuff has to end
We are now officially governed by lunatics.
@ Graf Midgehunter & ROS
For folk suffering with the BBC weather map image of Scotland burnt into their retinas from years of too wee propaganda, it’s also useful to highlight the actual land AND sea areas of Scotland and England, what with so many resources lying in our waters.
https://indyposterboy.scot/asset-rich-scotland/
Some peoples criticism is read as abuse , I just wonder how folk are supposed to voice their disgust , anger and disappointment without having someone calling it on line abuse.
I was reminded of a certain Scottish comedienne whose on line abuse could not be found despite major effort.
I heard Dominic Raab saying that Mps should not have to put up with abuse – my nasty thought was that he was a deserving cause as is the rest of the cabinet.
–
@ Stuart MacKay: I have your Voices for Independence on my favourites. It is excellent. Thank you.
At one time I couldn’t miss a day without reading the comments on Wings from excellent informed posters. Now it’s just an embarrassment to the majority of Independence supporters and to those no longer here that made it what it was.
It’s now a site infested with trolls, egotists and the ignorant. Sad to see the demise of a once great site that changed the campaign for Independence with its forensic analysis of the media.
Official Spokesperson for the majority, and our dear departed. ^
Happy passport day peeps.
Hi everyone,
Probably completely off topic but my partner and I have been writing and producing an independence song on the laptop in the front room for a few weeks now.
We wanted to try and cheer up, and hopefully inspire, everyone given all the negativity around these days!
We are a couple of not-very-technically-minded pensioners, so bear that in mind before ripping the song apart!
Anyway, the song is called “The Dream Shall Never Die”.
You can click the following link: m.youtube.com/watch?v=wglb8ufH_MQ
Let’s know what you think. Cheers. And feel free to share – assuming you think it’s worth it.
Sorry, the link thing doesn’t seem to work. I’ll leave out the m. thing and try again!
youtube.com/watch?v=wglb8ufH_MQ
I give up….
DJ says:
19 October, 2021 at 1:19 am
Hi everyone,
Probably completely off topic but my partner and I have been writing and producing an independence song on the laptop in the front room for a few weeks now.
We wanted to try and cheer up, and hopefully inspire, everyone given all the negativity around these days!
We are a couple of not-very-technically-minded pensioners, so bear that in mind before ripping the song apart!
Anyway, the song is called “The Dream Shall Never Die”.
You can click the following link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wglb8ufH_MQ
—-
That is superb. What a voice.
Hi Scott,
Thank you so much for your comments! It’s really appreciated. And many thanks for fixing that link.
I liked it too DJ, and it actually did cheer me up.
It’s a great start to the day having a nice wee bowl of YES in the morning.
The Queen of England and her First Minister doing their stuff for the rich folks network.
https://archive.ph/rmy5t
Johnson & Gates get intimate over the jellied eels.
Niccy, what you done today for Scottish independence?
Feck that, whaurs ma invite!
DJ – well done! Very nice song and video.