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Wings Over Scotland

The meaning of power

Posted on May 09, 2019 by

We see that giving you chores to do and calling it a present” is back:


As we’ve been pointing out ever since it was first mooted, the “assignation” of VAT receipts to the Scottish Government is neither a power nor a gift, but a trap. Holyrood will not have the ability to alter VAT in any way, and nor will it be given “control” of any new money. The cash in question is currently part of Holyrood’s block grant, and calling it an “assignation of VAT receipts” is nothing more than giving old money a new name and sneakily cutting Scotland’s budget by the back door.

And by non-trivial amounts:

Everyone’s always known it was a terrible and unworkable idea dreamed up in order to make it LOOK as though Scotland was being given new powers without actually doing it, and now that the only sensible and responsible course of action possible has been taken, the media and opposition can leap on it as a failure of the Scottish Government and proof that independence couldn’t work.

VAT, of course, is fundamentally a function of the economy, and Holyrood doesn’t control the Scottish economy, so it was always a con even in principle. But the main reason the plan is so complex and unworkable is precisely BECAUSE it’s being attempted under devolution rather than independence.

As with delayed welfare administration, the problems arise because the new proposals have to be half-integrated with the UK system, which is obviously far more complicated and difficult than simply having arrangements that only have to worry about Scotland.

In an independent country, companies would have to make Scotland-specific VAT declarations and all the figures would be known. Benefits wouldn’t be all tangled up in a mess of conflicting responsibilities where one government is spending its time and money trying to undo the impact of decisions of another government, as with the bedroom tax. Devolving only PARTS of things is the least efficient and most wasteful approach conceivable.

It’s a bit like, say, trying to leave the EU but while still retaining all the access and privileges of membership. And we all know how that’s working out.

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    519 to “The meaning of power”

    1. geeo says:

      Bang on cue post, rev.

      Nicola just destroyed willie rennie on this very issue, since he was the only one dumb enough to bring it up.

    2. yesindyref2 says:

      The worrying thing is it seems both Murdo Fraser for the TGories and James Kelly for Labour would have been stupid enough to jump for it, as both of them are criticising Mackay for turning it down with the uncertainty of Brexit.

      Please don’t ever let them become the Scottish Gvoernment.

    3. handclapping says:

      As the Trojans said – always look a Westminster gift horse in the mouth

    4. johnj says:

      Murdo Fraser and James Kelly speaking with one voice. says it all really.
      How sad for Scotland and democracy.

    5. Baldeagle58 says:


      Does anyone have a link to todays First Ministers Questions from Holyrood?
      My browser at work doesn’t support Broadcasting Scotland’s HTML5 Video format! 🙁

    6. Millsy says:

      Beware Westminster bearing gifts – tell them to stick their VAT proposals in David Mundells pinny !

    7. Welsh Sion says:

      Baldeagle58 @ 12.43 pm

      Does this help? (Tried to not choose BBC Parliament for you.)

    8. Dr Jim says:

      Following FMQs Scottish *journalists* pretend not to understand words

      There’s a lot of this going around

      Whatever happened to the film of Bryan Taylor training *Journalists* on how to *get at* the SNP

    9. OFF TOPIC

      Sacking Danny Baker seems a bit extreme. Maybe withholding his OBE would have been enough of a punishment.

    10. geeo says:

      @Dr Jim 1.08pm

      As i said on previous thread..

      BBC – telling you the opposite of what you just watched for quite some time now.

      Fooling nobody.

    11. North chiel says:

      Impressive performance by our FM again in the chamber . “ The mooth” and other branch office “ leaders” “telt “ once again . Of course “ toodle -oo -the- noo “ had to give his “journalist chum” the last word on our government supposedly handing back “ powers” to Westminster . As stu rightly says these supposed “ powers” are just the latest Tory “con” trick “ assignment “ of the Barnet formula designed to trap the Scottish government into accepting “ uK treasury estimates of VAT revenues accrued in Scotland. Personally , I wouldn’t trust the U.K. treasury to calculate the square root of 1accurately and you can be sure that any “ estimates they produce” will always favour themselves and not Scotland. The sooner we have a treasury in Scotland with a Scottish Chancellor the better for our country going forward.

    12. Republicofscotland says:

      In other words independence is required full stop.

    13. Petra says:

      @ Geeo at 12:30pm …”Nicola just destroyed Willie Rennie at FMQ’s.”

      I wonder how many people watched that in comparison to the BBC Reporting Scotland news at 1:30pm?

      Brian Taylor discusses the VAT scenario (basic and confusing) at Holyrood and then shows footage of wee Willie Rennie giving it SNP Baad laldy re. policing, education, delaying dealing with devolved benefits, etc, etc, and then saying that the SNP are handing a new power back. Crammed it all in. Then we return to a BrianTaylor impersonation of Nicola Sturgeon explaining, BBC style, Nicola’s response to wee Willie. No sign of Nicola at all. Still managed to slot in a comment from an SNP politician that had nothing to do with VAT at all and Nicola’s response to him.

      We should all get on the phone and complain to the BBC about the manipulative bias, propaganda, that we’re being subjected to day after day. Better still just cancel your TV license.

    14. Republicofscotland says:


      Yes BBC Shortbread news showed Willie Rennie’s attack on the FM, but then failed to show Sturgeon’s excellent fact laden riposte, I wonder why?

    15. Clydebuilt says:

      Petra @2.06 pm

      Giving air time to a Unionist then having one of their Journalists give their version of a statement by the FM. is definately a tactic the BBC are using . . . . Happens frequently on The BBC’s radio Scotland

      Notice it especially on Drive time . . . . Hard to remember the last time I heard an SNP representative between 5pm and 6pm (peak audience).

      There’s many layers to their propaganda.

    16. Del G says:

      johnj says:
      9 May, 2019 at 12:43 pm
      Murdo Fraser and James Kelly
      Or, tweedledumb and tweedledumber.

    17. Ken500 says:

      More Westminster unionists nonsense. Vote them out. The lot of them trying to hold Scotland back. £20Billion Scotland loses out a year because of these lying psycho bastards. Scotland would be on par with Norway and raise £80Billion in tax revenues.

      The Westminster unionist imbeciles have not go a clue. A bunch of parasites. Vote the lot of them out. The absolute appalling shambles. The Brexit mess. They are a world laughing stock. Get rid of the lot of them.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one other person to vote too. Job done.

    18. Dr Jim says:

      I remember when the British press never allowed you to hear the voices of Northern Irish politicians like Gerry Adams and voiced them over using actors just in case you were sucked into their evil web of not what the *British* liked

      The *British* hate censorship except when it’s them applying it (for our own good you understand)

      The big mothers are taking care of us

    19. Yerkitbreeks says:

      Cancelled my TV license post IndeRef – no problem with news websites are mainly free :

      PS you will need to get rid of cookies on a regular basis

    20. Graeme McCormick says:

      The worrying thing is that we walked into this. The agreement following the Smith Commission was a poison chalice. Income tax on earnings and now Vat.. the Scottish government should have walked away from this. Perception of a failure accept responsibility is not a good place to be in politically.

      It is wrong to suggest that we can’t take control and over ride these challenges. If the Scottish government introduced an Annual Ground Rent which replaces all U.K. and Scottish taxes then Scottish UK taxpayers can be reimbursed by the Scottish government through the Fiscal Agreement block grant.

      That puts the Scottish government in complete control of the Scottish economy on its own terms. If the U.K. try to interfere with the Block grant the Scots affected jump for Independence

    21. Capella says:

      @ Baldeagle58 – I like to go direct to the Parliament webcast. Not mediated by the BBC or anyone else.

    22. Abulhaq says:

      Between too early and too late, there is never more than a moment.
      Franz WERFEL
      Austrian-Bohemian novelist, playwright, poet.
      That moment is fast approaching.

    23. Ken500 says:

      It is recognise the VAT revenues have been under estimated for years. GERS. Compared to Ireland etc they are too low. It has been known for years. Another Westminster absolute con from the criminals,

      Iraqi war, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years. Warmonger Blair. Conmen everyone.

      Scotland overtaxed to pay for illegal wars, Trident, HS2, Hinkley Point and the rest of the Westminster unionist mismanaged policies. Tax evasion, financial fraud. Costing Scotland £Billions.
      Farming, fishing, Oil & Gas sector mismanaged. Losing Scotland £Billions.

      Lying Westminster sycophants. They haven’t got a clue. Imbeciles. .

    24. Jack Murphy says:

      Scottish Parliament TV.


      Session has now been archived and available to view here:

    25. Ken500 says:

      It is estimated Scottish VAT revenues would be £7.5Billion+ on par with Ireland.

    26. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Taylor’s livelihood depends on him performing in accordance with the BBC’s royal charter. So he’s just doing the job he’s paid to do, i.e. boost British nationalism. He’s not a journalist, he’s a booster and conman.

      @Brian Taylor
      I appreciate you may be a bit lacking in legal theory, so you can be forgiven for not appreciating the full-English Brexit is an attack on Scottish culture and the international rule-of-law (see Treaties of Union). Not only was the Brexit vote criminally compromised, the act of Brexiting breaks the moral law justification of Westminster’s legal authority over Scotland. So what I want to know is, are you a rational liberal or something else? Remember, the force of legal reason is derived from moral law.



      There are two key ‘moments’ in the history of international society which provide the historical context for understanding the main obstacles to reconciling self-determination with international law and order. The first symbolic moment is the Westphalian settlement (1648) that inaugurated the modern system of states based on the principle of territorial sovereignty.

      The second is the French Revolution (1789), when the concept of national self-determination was promoted as a democratic ideal of representative government, theoretically applicable to all humankind.[2] According to the political thought of the Enlightenment, governments should be based on the will of the people, not the monarch. People not content with their government should be able to secede and organise themselves as they wish. This strain of political thought meant that people were no longer mere subjects of the monarch, they were now citizens of the nation-state.

      From its inception, the concept of national self-determination was a threat to the legitimacy of the established order, and remains so today. However they are defined, there are simply many more nations than there are states, and there are no juridical processes available to redistribute humanity according to the principle of national self-determination without a severe disruption to the territorial integrity and rights of existing states.[3] In short, the society of states is at an impasse.[4]

      Contemporary international society is an evolution of the European society of states, which, in turn, grew out of what was regarded as the universal Christian society of medieval Europe. This pre-modern idea of international society was conceived by the natural law thinkers of the period as a universal society of humankind bound in their relations with each other by moral laws derived, in part, from the natural law tradition, but also from the traditions and customs of Empire and Church in Christian Europe. The transformation of Christian international society into European international society was an outcome of the changing structures of political power in Europe and the intellectual challenges of the period.[5]

      The Reformation weakened the political and moral legitimacy of the Universal Church and the Holy Roman Empire, and subsequently also challenged the idea of a single moral authority in the political community. At the same time, the notion of political sovereignty and a conception of the state exercising exclusive jurisdiction over a territory and its inhabitants were becoming clearer. According to the conventional interpretation of international society, the Westphalian Peace Treaties constituted for the first time an international society in which the criss-crossing relations between diverse feudal conflict-units and the hierarchical claims of Empire and Papacy were, at least in Europe, superseded by formal relations between modern sovereign states.[6]

      Central rulers consolidated their exclusive sovereignty by controlling the instruments of foreign policy; namely, the armed forces, diplomacy and treaty-making.[7] International relations came to be institutionalised in permanent embassies, coordinating international affairs through regular diplomatic intercourse. This intercourse was governed by binding diplomatic protocols, which were discussed at regular multilateral congresses.

    27. Breeks says:

      Clydebuilt says:
      9 May, 2019 at 2:21 pm
      Petra @2.06 pm

      Giving air time to a Unionist then having one of their Journalists give their version of a statement by the FM. is definately a tactic the BBC are using…

      Quid pro quo. Don’t give the BBC an interview, just a terse written statement. We release pro Indy arguments by trusted channels and social media, and stick to our agenda, not theirs.

      And most importantly, tell EVERYBODY why it’s happening, especially foreign and EU news broadcasters, and of course give them a direct source for legit political commentary and reactions.

      Start treating the BBC with the respect barge pole it deserves.

      We’ll be getting rid of the BBC anyway, so let’s act like we actually believe it, and start the preparatory arrangements for an alternative media now… even if we’re still too mealy mouthed and fearty to actually broadcast anything. The BBC will only get official footage with somebody else’s matermark in the corner… ideally IndyLive or PhantomPower.

      They want to vet what’s broadcast, quid pro quo. We’ll have a say in what gets broadcast too.

    28. Capella says:

      I listened to the John Beattie media revue on RScotland. They have noticed that the BBC broadcasts English events as if they were of UK wide interest e.g. the Local Authority elections, which didn’t even happen in every English LA but dominated the news as if they had.

      However, their discussion on how journalists are mistreated and murdered, especially in Russia and Mexico and the Middle East failed to mention Julian Assange.

    29. jfngw says:

      If the LibDem’s come calling for an EU vote just ask them a simple question. After Brexit EU or UK, they have to make a choice, they will prevaricate and try to tell the lie that UK & EU is still an option.

    30. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s one for (t)Ruthless, Scotland In Yoonion and all the other neo-fascist organisations who are opposed to Scotland exercising the right to self-determination.

      The Struggle for Self-determination in Scotland and Bougainville

      This paper analyses and compares elements of the political, economic and socio-cultural environments of Scotland and Bougainville as they relate to their respective self-determination movements. While the geographic and socio-economic environments of the two are literally a world apart, the paper argues that the drivers of nationalism and ideological goals are similar.

      The paper accordingly contends that Scotland’s successful referendum in 2014 provides a useful case study to identify aspirational structures, strategies and processes that could apply to the forthcoming referendum on Bougainville, planned to be conducted before 2020. Drawing on the lessons from Scotland, the paper highlights the potential opportunities for a legitimate, democratic and violence-free referendum on Bougainville within the next three years.

    31. jfngw says:

      It’s strange the unionist are worried about a power that gives no power to Holyrood but could be used to reduce our budget but are totally unconcerned about the raft of powers we do want but are being repatriated to Westminster, despite the Scots voting for these powers in a referendum..

    32. CameronB Brodie says:

      Honestly folks, I’m not being unkind when I suggest (t)Ruthless is a bit of a thick fascist.

      Universal Recognition of Inalienable Right to Self-Determination Most Effective Way of Guaranteeing Fundamental Freedoms, Third Committee Told

    33. Shug says:

      So who makes the broadcast decision at the bbc
      Is it brian taylor or is there an arch manipulator behind him

    34. geeo says:

      @petra re: BBC skewed reporting of FMQ’s.

      Typical BBC tactics, however, by posting the ACTUAL exchanges over social media, we can PROVE the BBC bias to people.

      Not ideal, but it is where we are due to biased state media propagandists.

      The Rennie exchange has been sent to everyone on my contacts list on my phone, for them to SEE the actual exchange before the news reports on tv.

      That way they get to realise what they are watching is a steaming contradiction of the real exchanges.

      That way it is THEM seeing the bias, rather than me lecturing them.

      They usually pass it on to their contact lists and via their social media.

      I have enlightened a fair few this way, directly and indirectly, in the last few years.

    35. call me dave says:

      As many are advising cut the Shortbread radio and tv out and watch FMQs live and without interjections from others.

      Hear Sturgeon speak!

      Watch and draw your own conclusions… say goodbye to that guy
      ‘Toodle-ooo-the-noo’ who puts his foot in her mouth.

      Remember the poison in the pestle and the chalice from the palace now its a ‘rat in the vat’ Scotland won’t swallow that… surely!

    36. call me dave says:

      FGS! The missing link… 🙁

    37. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      The pellet with the poison is in the vessel with the pestle. The chalice from the palace has the brew that is true.

    38. mr thms says:

      I posted a link to what the Fraser of Allander Institute said about the assignation of VAT on the last thread.

      I always wondered how it would work in practice as the process is unfathomable.

      The really good news is the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party and the UK Tory government should now have no hesitation in devolving VAT AFTER Brexit.


      The Scottish Tories on the Smith Commission wanted VAT to be devolved but under the EU’s VAT regime it was against the law and last year the contingent of Scottish Tory MPs, helped pass a motion to leave the EU’s VAT regime after Brexit. Lucky that they did as it was only passed with a handful of votes.

      Who would have thought the two referendums are linked.

    39. Colin Alexander says:

      Holyrood, who cares?

      Power lies at Westminster.

      Holyrood is nothing more than British Empire rule administered in Edinburgh by the SNP.

    40. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Brian Taylor
      re. the media’s power to shape public perception and political opinion, here’s some homework for you lad. Remember, Britain is a yoonyawn of equal nations, bound together by international law.

      Sovereignty, International Law and Democracy


      In my reply to Jeremy Waldron’s article ‘Are Sovereigns Entitled to the Benefit of the International Rule of Law?’, I draw upon and in some ways expand Waldron’s important contribution to our understanding of the international rule of law.

      First of all, I suggest that Waldron’s argument about the international rule of law can be used to illuminate how we should understand the legitimate authority of international law over sovereign states, but also how some of sovereign states’ residual independence ought to be protected from legitimate international law.

      Secondly, I argue that the democratic pedigree of the international rule of law plays a role when assessing how international law binds democratic sovereign states and whether the international rule of law can and ought to benefit their individual subjects.

      Finally, I emphasize how Waldron’s argument that the international rule of law ought to benefit individuals in priority has implications for the sources of international law and for what sources can be regarded as sources of valid law.

    41. Bill Hume says:

      Oh fuck, Colin’s back.

    42. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander @4.07pm

      “Holyrood who cares”

      Obviously not you Mr Alexander. Now that is a very simple Britnat comment. So why not just give it a rest and come out of the closet, leave the rest of the phoney independence supporters behind and come out into the the light grab a few bluebells and make an honest Britnat of yourself like your pal Mad British Nationalist.

    43. call me dave says:

      My better half just filled in a survey from Populus:

      All about Theresa V Amber Rudd etal for PM and Brexit with links to Corbyn making her look weak etc.

      Nothing about Scottish independence question or Ruthie!.

      I never ask what she wrote! 🙂

      I never get a survey now after a couple I did in 2013 /14 ish

    44. Cubby says:

      Funny how the Britnats want to devolve all manner of bits and pieces of complicated areas but don’t seem to want to devolve the relatively simple powers over the media. Funny that!,,,

      Britnats – full of lies and deceit.

    45. CameronB Brodie says:

      If we are talking about power, Britain is the voluntary political yoonyawn of the previously independent states of Scotland and England. However, British constitutional law considers Britain to be a “unitary” state, which it is clearly not (see education, healthcare, religion, law, ect.). There is no such thing as British law, only the assumed supremacy of English legal doctrine, which is the “moral law” that justifies the existence of the British state. The full-English Brexit takes a big, smelly, dump on the moral law and the British constitution. Supporting the full-English Brexit is to support the erosion of law and order.

      What is sovereignty?

      Sovereignty can be understood as the authority of a state to govern itself, and determine its own laws and policies. In the case of the UK, we also have the idea of parliamentary sovereignty, which holds that Parliament is the highest source of authority make laws without restriction.

      Whilst sovereignty in the first sense may be the starting point for all independent states, sovereignty in the second sense is not. Many states’ parliaments are constrained by requirements of a written constitution, and a constitutional court which can review, and annul laws which conflict with the constitution.

      On one level, the UK’s sovereign law making powers, centred on its Parliament, are challenged by its membership of the European Union, as the UK is constrained in its actions by the agreements it has entered into and laws made under the EU Treaties. These laws have primacy over the laws of the member states.

      However, this pooling of sovereignty, and restriction on Parliament’s powers has been voluntarily entered into by the UK. Indeed, parliamentary sovereignty is seen still to apply as it is an Act of Parliament that gives EU law its force in the UK. Parliament could revoke that law – though that would leave the UK in breach of the terms of EU membership.

      Finally, the fact that the UK is able to leave the EU is a clear indication that it remains ultimately a sovereign state.

    46. David McCann says:

      Scottish Parliament TV.
      ALWAYS go to the source!

    47. JMD says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      9 May, 2019 at 3:35 pm
      “Honestly folks, I’m not being unkind when I suggest (t)Ruthless is a bit of a thick fascist”.

      Why do you feel you have to use the word “unkind” and worry if someone might think you are being “unkind” in describing her as a thick fascist?

      Do you actually think she’d worry about being “unkind” to you and your kids futures? She couldn’t care less if your kids ended up rummaging through the bins for food as a result of WM policies. Actually her and her ilk would sit back and have a laugh watching it.

      Davidson flags up a lot of indicators of sociopathic personality disorder and don’t the worthless trash of the “Scottish” media love her for it.

    48. mr thms says:

      Why it was the right decision

      “How will Scottish VAT assignment be calculated?”

    49. CameronB Brodie says:

      True that but I choose to rise above, or try to anyway. 🙂

    50. Legerwood says:

      I got an election leaflet from the Brexit Party today – delivered by post. Wonder where the money is coming from?

      Also saw this quote from Rachel Johnson, BoJo’s sister and a candidate in EU elections for Change UK I think.

      Of the Brexit Party she said: ‘they are like Burger King – the home of the Whopper’!

    51. frogesque says:

      Devious, duplicitous, perfidious Albion.

    52. Ken500 says:

      Davidson is just a liar. 20% of people are on the spectrum and have additional needs. The Tories insult them, their careers, families and friends all the time, Total lack of knowledge. They need support in the community. Sometimes can’t work but need consideration.

      Davidson is a compulsive, habitual liar, Along with the rest of them. Often young folk need, take time to settle into occupation. At less they get a job @and into work. Unlike Davidson who has been troughing all her life on public money. A total waste of space. A disgrace. The ConDem/Tories cut £6Billion a year from education from 2015 to 2020. Put up fees in the rest of the UK to £9,000. Davidson is a dunce.

      The SNP Scottish Gov had to mitigate it. Davidson is a compulsive habitual liar. The Tories are going down big time. Good riddance. The Brexit mess is a scandal. The Tories/unionists are a world laughing stock, Scotland has one of the best educational system in the world. It would be even better if it was not for the Tory/unionists cutting funding all the time. Interfering. Wasting Scottish resources and revenues. Costing Scotland £Billions in lost monies.

    53. CameronB Brodie says:

      Of course, I appreciate there is no internationally agreed model of the “rule-of-law”, but the full-English Brexit undermines any “universal” notion of “legal personality”.

      Subsequently, Scotland’s resident nationals better get used to being second-class subjects of the old English Crown in the new state of Brexitania.

      Developing Rule of Law at National Level Falls under State Sovereignty, Speakers Tell Sixth Committee, as Debate Continues

    54. Ken500 says:

      The only one confused is Brian Taylor, An obese waste of space. Try slimming it and cut the cake along with all the rubbish reports. Another total liar.

    55. Macart says:

      Neatly done and well said Rev.

    56. boris says:

      About 140,000 Government Procurement Cards (GPC) are in circulation. Any any bills lower than £1,000 a month are not routinely audited.

    57. Dan says:

      @Legerwood at 5:13 pm

      I also got the Brexit Party election leaflet delivered by the posty today.
      It was personally addressed to me and I asked the posty if everyone was getting them delivered and they said yes. Presume everyone that is on the Electoral List.
      Did wonder where the money was coming from too for a new party, but iirc all parties get one mailshot at election times?
      There seems to be some scan-able logo on the leaflet that links to an App so clearly they have considerable organisational backing in place to set this up.

    58. twathater says:

      Yesindyref2 @12.32pm As you say about kelly the grip and murdo the turd , if liebour tolly or the lib dumbs get anywhere near power we’re all Donald ducked, anyone stupid enough to vote for these cringing corrupt chancers has no concept of history

      These are the self same ar**holes who have crippled our country , at FMQ’s earlier that liebour thingy whatsisname was BOASTING about the amount of affordable housing built during liebour’s last term in office , he mentioned 25000 ,even if that were true 25000 over their term of 13 years is absolutely Lillian gish

      I know that the figure of 6 is often mentioned but does anyone know the exact number

    59. Clydebuilt says:

      BBC Radio2

      16.00 News . .Lead Story SNP Launch Euro Election Campaign hear The FM speaking

      BBC Radio Scotland

      17.00 News . .Lead Story Bullying at NHS Highlands, . .,. As of 17.35 no mention
      . . . . . . . . . . .. of SNP EU election campaign

    60. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      It was 6 houses in total all in Shetland @twathater says at 5:31 pm

      Lying is second nature to BritNats especially as they know Bog Brian and the rest of the MSM will never call them out.

    61. twathater says:

      Thanks for that JWT @ 5.44pm if that is truly the case it should be highlighted and shoved up their noses at every opporchancity

    62. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think the key political issue re. affordable housing in Scotland, is how will the full-English Brexit support the continued recovery of Scotland’s housing sector? I can’t see how it will avoid replicating the harm of the 2008 financial crash, which suggests the full-English Brexit represents poor governance, from a Scottish perspective. Well, that’s Tory policy for you, ill-conceived, short-sighted and lacking in any ethical consideration.

      Housing in Scotland: a key political issue

      Scotland is the second largest housing market in the UK, accounting for around 30% of the UK’s land mass and accommodating around 10% of its population. Here, we review how the Scottish market compares to the rest of the UK, looking at how it has fared in recent years and the range of different housing practices and policies operating in the country.

      The outlook

      The housing market in Scotland continues to recover from the effects of the financial crisis. First-time buyer volumes have returned to almost pre-crunch levels – although they have been supported by the various government support schemes. But there is political uncertainty across the UK and it is perhaps even more pronounced in Scotland, where a second independence referendum may be on the cards.

      Housing Statistics for Scotland – New House Building
      New House Building in Scotland

      Housing Statistics for Scotland – Public Authority Housing Stock
      Public Authority Housing Stock

      Housing policy in Scotland since devolution: divergence, crisis, integration and opportunity.

    63. Legerwood says:

      Dan @ 5.31 PM

      I think you are right, parties do get 1 free mailshot but the Brexit Party have been really fast off the blocks and that suggests serious money and not from members’ subs either.

      It will be worth keeping an eye on them, and the Tories who seemed to send more than one of their leaflets via the postal service.

    64. mr thms says:

      For everyone who did not see the speech..

      Nicola Sturgeon’s EU election launch address

    65. Craig Murray says:

      The BBC’s bias against the SNP is simply endless. The organisation has to be broken up completely and replaced on Independence.

      I hope Stu will forgive me for reminding people here to watch the Alex Salmond show in 15 mins on RT – a retrospective on my life this week. Geeo and others were saying a couple of weeks ago on here they had no idea who I am or where I came from. Well, this is your answer.

    66. gus1940 says:

      Bad news – Farage is on QT again tonight.

      Good news – so is Anna Soubry – she will have a good go at him.

    67. mr thms says:


      Under Fiona Bruce, QT has become a great advert for independence.

    68. Capella says:

      The National are doing a “Who’s on QT tonight” feature. Worth a read and also worth subscribing to keep numbers up 🙂

    69. Auld Rock says:

      I know it’s a bit ‘off-topic’ but it does relate to honesty and equal treatment. So can someone tell me just how Farage and his ‘BritNats’ are given so much ‘air-time’ by the EBC and to a lesser extent by ITV? And why is it that the Fib/Dems are now getting so much prominence, surely it can’t be anything to do with the 500 odd seats that they took in last weeks English locals? You can enlighten me at*

    70. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ll be voting SNP at the European election, as the surest means of securing my EU citizenship. Retaining my EU legal personality is my only hope of ever living under an ethical system of government. The full-English Brexit points to the ‘quality’ of British nationalism and democracy, which are not worth saving, frankly.


      1. Introduction

      This paper sets out a number of practical mechanisms for setting and institutionalising high standards of ethical conduct integrity and good Governance for elected officials and civil servants, based on the experience of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the UK, Korea, Morocco and Ethiopia. In summary, the introduction of relevant Codes of Ethics and Conduct, to be effective, needs to be supported by a range of other mechanisms, training, and leadership by managers and political leaders alike. Examples of such mechanisms are given.

    71. geeo says:

      Craig Murray @6.14pm

      At no point have i ever cared who you are and where you ‘came from’.

      Get over yourself.

    72. Dan says:

      @Legerwood at 6:11 pm

      Aye, it will be interesting to watch. I don’t imagine that dark money tree is ever out of season.

      I’m almost intrigued enough to want to scan the logo on their leaflet just to see what it would do.
      Then reality bites and there’s just no way I want be exposed to any of that toxic garbage, it’ll be the next evolution of data harvesting and personalised algorithm propaganda a la Cambridge Analytica, real Black Mirror stuff!

    73. Hamish100 says:

      Legerwood says:
      9 May, 2019 at 5:13 pm
      I got an election leaflet from the Brexit Party today – delivered by post. Wonder where the money is coming from?

      I received one through my door today too. Ayrshire. I am returning it to the sender in an envelope. I hope I have a stamp.

    74. geeo says:


      Was there not a suggestion of returning such bumff wrapped in a brick in a nice padded envelope so it costs more for the leaflet originators ?

    75. Clootie says:

      Every “gift” from Westminster has only one purpose and that is to weaken Scotland. We have no control when Westminster manages the issue for us, on our behalf, via their determined calculation or any variation of that trap.

    76. Hamish100 says:


      you may say that I couldn’t possible comment!!

    77. HandandShrimp says:

      Farage occupying his safe seat again I see. The BBC are almost entirely responsible for the oxygen of publicity that awful eedjit has enjoyed over the years. They were the midwife of Brexit.

    78. Dan says:

      @Graeme McCormick at 2:34 pm

      I’ve attended one of the talks you have given on the Annual Ground Rent concept and I found the subject to be very interesting.
      A lot of my reasons for becoming engaged in the Indy movement was because of the seemingly endless corruption we have to endure in the UK construct which we are unable to do anything significant to stop.
      As you say, you can’t take the land offshore so dues will be paid.
      The talk you gave was last year so it included later revisions from the original idea, such as to include the universal wage / pension over and above general public expenditure.
      Can I ask if you have found there to be growing interest in the AGR concept?

    79. Cubby says:

      Craig Murray@6.14pm

      I don’t do hero worship never have and not about to start now. Tried to say that in a nice manner.

    80. Capella says:

      @ Craig Murray – thx for the heads up – I am interested and also I like to support Alex Salmond’s show on the Kremlin funded Putin personal broadcaster.

      No idea why Cubby and geeo feel the need to be rude. I thought you were taking the Be Nice tablets, Cubby. Have you run out?

    81. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi geeo.

      Craig Murray… from Wikipedia:

      “Craig John Murray (born 17 October 1958)[1][2][3] is a British former diplomat turned political activist, human rights campaigner, blogger and whistleblower.

      Between 2002 and 2004, he was the British ambassador to Uzbekistan during which he exposed the human rights violations of the Karimov administration. This led to conflict with his superiors in the Foreign Office until finally he was removed from the post.[4][5] Specifically, Murray complained to the Foreign Office repeatedly that intelligence received by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) from the Uzbek government was unreliable because it had been obtained through torture,[6] a fact later confirmed by European investigators.[4][7]

      Subsequently he became a political activist, campaigning for human rights and for transparency in global politics as well as for the independence of Scotland. In 2007–2010 he was the elected Rector of the University of Dundee. “


      “At the University of Dundee, to which, Murray said, he barely gained admission to read Modern History, and “made a policy decision not to attend any lectures”. Instead he “read voraciously” to teach himself, and graduated in 1982 with an MA (Hons) 1st Class.[8] At Dundee University, Murray remained active in Liberal then Liberal Democrat politics. Murray was elected President of his University Students Union as an avowed Liberal.

      Having already been on the Students’ Representative Council, Murray became President of Dundee University Students’ Association, elected to this sabbatical office twice (1982–1983 and 1983–1984), an occurrence so unusual that the university court (the highest body) changed the rules to prevent him running a third time.[8] He spent seven years in total at the university, he had to re-sit one year for not attending tutorials, compared to a normal four years for a Scottish first degree.[8] “

      Craig Murray is a ‘decent bloke’. I may not agree with his downer on the SNP hierarchy but it is possible to have a reasonable blether with him, as yesindyref2 may testify, as we both had blethers with him at Glasgow Green on Saturday, at the WOS stall.

      I think he sees himself as ‘one of us’, ie a Winger. Why else would he drive from Edinburgh to Glenrothes last year, to attend a ‘Friends of WOS’ get-together?

      Unless, of course, he was on a spying mission…

    82. A C Bruce says:

      Craig Murray at 6.14 pm.

      I watched you on the Alex Salmond show. I enjoyed it very much – although some of the details were harrowing – and I’m looking forward to seeing you both on next week’s show to find out what happened next. At least we know you survived ‘perfidious albion’.

    83. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Reading my previous comment re: Craig Murray, I realised I forgot to point out something that was intended, when I started to put together the comment.

      He may live in Edinburgh now, but due to his connection with Dundee, a lot of Dundee Yessers see him as “Oor Craig”, wahrts an’ a’…

    84. Craig Murray says:

      Geeo at 6.50pm I did not say that you cared who I was. When you stated that you did not know who I was, I took it you were expressing contempt. I was hoping that if you watched the Alex Salmond show, you might find your contempt is misplaced.

      Cubby at 7.32pm it is good to avoid hero worship, and certainly I am no hero, having made many mistakes in my life. I am a bit prone to hero worship myself. I would walk through fire for Alex Salmond, for example, and probably faint if I met Sean Connery.

    85. ronnie anderson says:

      Manny Singh on after Alex Salmond.

    86. ronnie anderson says:

      BDTT wee correction there at 7.42 Mr Craig bused from Edinburgh to Glenrothes to meet up with the Wingers & held a conversation at every table , I drove him back to Granton with Quine Fae Angus & Ruglonian chatting with him all the way .

    87. Petra says:

      @ Shug at 3:43pm ……..”So who makes the broadcast decision at the BBC.”

      Shug I’ve got this vision of a top secret “war cabinet” consisting of representatives for the monarchy, MI5, MI6, GCHQ, the Tories, the BBC, newspapers, 77th Brigade, experts in relation to all social / economic issues, top propagandists, psychologists, etc, etc.

      They sit round a table and come up with their ideas for keeping the Union intact, from infiltrating sites like this, to pushing the Royal family / war movies down our throat, endorsing the Union Jack on Scottish products, attempting to stymie our economy, no doubt paying to keep newspapers afloat, the BBC supporting journalists across Scotland, creating more poverty in Scotland and so on. It also wouldn’t surprise me to find out that they’ve even considered bribing key Independence bloggers. The list is endless and they all, each expert, in this pyramidal cabal has a particular job to do. They in turn give piecemeal orders, in an attempt to obscure their plans, to their lackeys with their instructions flowing down the chain of command. People like the BBC’s Brian Taylor are at the bottom of the slimy heap, imo. And who makes the decisions for the BBC? Probably through a joint effort of the top dogs.

      Right now they see Davidson as being the only person, the front, in Scotland that they reckon could oust Nicola Sturgeon hence promoting her at every turn, whilst discrediting and excluding Nicola Sturgeon in a multitude of ways; with one example being witnessed earlier today. Ruth Davidson has announced that she’ll be the next FM. Willie Rennie slipped up on Brewer’s on Sunday when he wouldn’t answer GB when asked if he’d get into a coalition with the Scottish Tories. So over and above all they get up to, including behind the scenes, look out for them now going into overdrive in their attempts to “popularise” Rennie before the next Scottish GE.

    88. A C Bruce says:

      I don’t know Craig Murray but, from what I have read about him, he is a man of integrity and honour and faced a rather nasty UK establishment when he blew the whistle on rendition and torture in Uzbekistan when he was UK Ambassador there. People were being tortured and information passed to both the CIA and MI6. Yeah, that’s the UK government for you they sub-contracted torture so they could keep their hands clean. The torture story told to Alex Salmond was stomach churning.

      He was ostracised and called a liar in the House of Commons (by Jack Straw) and his character blackened. He lost his job, his income, his marriage and he was psychologically damaged because he told the truth. Later it was proved that he was not lying.

      How many of us would have found it easier to turn a blind eye?

      Whether we agree with him or not regarding his views on how Scotland achieves normality, I think he has a lot of knowledge useful to Yessers.

      He’s got my respect for what it’s worth.

      Part 2 is next week.

    89. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Sorry Ronnie. I thought he drove but you mentioning you drove him back, enlightened the memorybockers.

    90. yesindyref2 says:

      Indeed. Craig Murray is a decent normal human being – as I found out much to my surprise 😎

      As normal as any of us are, right enough. Anyone for tiffin?

    91. CameronB Brodie says:

      Will tiffin be available in Brexitania? Will the full-English Brexit actually happen? Should it be allowed to happen?

      Brexit is not the will of the British people – it never has been

      The referendum vote for Brexit was clear: the electorate was 46,501,241, Leave was 17,410,742 and Remain was 16,141,241. The UK public actually did not, does not and will not want a Brexit in the foreseeable future. Adrian Low makes this argument by analysing the post-referendum polls and demographic trends.

      The difference between leave and remain was 3.8 percent or 1.3 million in favour of Leave. However, in a close analysis, virtually all the polls show that the UK electorate wants to remain in the EU, and has wanted to remain since referendum day. Moreover, according to predicted demographics, the UK will want to remain in the EU for the foreseeable future….

    92. Gfaetheblock says:

      Any chat about the SNP mail shot issue today. Folk in my village have all got SNP mailshots with incorrect names on them, some to other neighbours, some to unrecognised names. One neighbour got 10 letters. Seeing on twitter reports of the same in dalgety bay and Kilmarnock.

      Looks like a significant mail merge issue, expensive and embarrassing mistake.

    93. Terry says:

      Craig Murray is ace. He’s courageous, intelligent and an all round great Indy fighter. His breadth of knowledge on the British state’s involvement in foreign affairs in particular is akin to Lesley riddoch on the Scandinavian countries.

      His blog is well worth a read. It’s Number 9 in the top 10 political blogs in the UK. Wings is at 3. Looking forward to seeing him with Alex later tonight. The two of them are massive threats to the ongoing union.

      Mind you I’m beginning to think the two of them are being eclipsed lately by the tories. Their actions are inadvertently hastening the end of the Union. Huzzah!

    94. geeo says:

      @Craig Murray 7.59pm.


      You said this: “When you stated that you did not know who I was…”


      I have NEVER STATED THAT to anyone, never mind YOU.

      Got it now, ckear enough ?


      Again, get over yourself.

    95. Petra says:

      Ooops missed a bit:-

      ‘Political activities

      ”According to his blog, Murray joined the Liberal Party in 1973, refounding, with two others, the defunct North Norfolk constituency Liberal party. Murray wrote to the Liberal leader Jeremy Thorpe to request a candidate. Thorpe’s private secretary, Richard Moore, read the letter and volunteered himself to be the candidate. On arrival in Sheringham, he was surprised to find his sponsor was 15 years old. Moore (father of journalist Charles Moore) fought North Norfolk in both 1974 elections, the first Liberal to fight North Norfolk for several elections.

      Murray became President of the East Anglian Federation of Young Liberals. Aged 16 he was elected to the National Council of the Liberal Party to represent the Eastern Region of England…

      At Dundee University, Murray remained active in Liberal then Liberal Democrat politics. Murray was elected President of his University Students Union as an avowed Liberal.

      Murray remained a member of the Liberal Democrats until 2005. He has continued his opposition to the War on Terror, twice standing for election to the House of Commons. At the May 2005 general election he stood as an independent, in Blackburn, Lancashire, against his former boss, Jack Straw, then the MP for the constituency. He polled 2,082 votes (5.0%) and came fifth out of seven candidates.

      Following the United Kingdom parliamentary expenses scandal, Murray stood for election in the July 2009 Norwich North by-election under the slogan “Put an honest man into Parliament”. He polled 953 votes (2.77%), which placed him sixth out of the twelve candidates.

      Murray rejoined the Liberal Democrats, according to his blog entry on 22 March 2010. By September 2011, he had left the Liberal Democrats again, as he objected to policies pursued by the coalition government, and joined the Scottish National Party.”..


      @ Craig Murray says at 7:59 pm …. ”I am a bit prone to hero worship myself. I would walk through fire for Alex Salmond.”…

      And yet you take every opportunity to run down Nicola Sturgeon (and SNP others) his protege, friend and successor and in doing so boot Alex Salmond, ”the architect of the SNP’s rise to power” right up the backside. If you thought so much of him you’d think you’d do your absolute utmost to help the man realise his dream.

    96. Craig Murray says:

      Geeo at 8.44pm

      hmm, now I am going t have to search through thousands of comments to find it. Oh well. I shall be back. Expect you to buy me a pint if I am right.

    97. Craig Murray says:

      Petra at 8.46pm It is no secret at all I was in the Liberals, later Lib Dems, from 1973 to 2011. I left in 2011 and joined the SNP.
      Consider the possibility that I know a little more about what Alex thinks currently than you do. I take it you didn’t bother to watch his programme either?

    98. David says:

      Ledgerwood the Brexit party money Nigel refused point blank to say where a 100 thousand pound donation came from said donor would be inundated with journalists will reveal donor after election

    99. boris says:

      Information recently released under the Freedom of Information Act revealed that since the 2015 General Election 377, MPs’, (1,114 suspensions in total) have had their gold credit cards suspended for claiming for disallowed items, failing to pay back ineligible expenses or failure to provide receipts.

    100. call me dave says:

      Hmm! Shortbread web site:

      Sturgeon says…No Brexit

      Leader of the SNP says… No Brexit

      I thought she was First Minister of Scottish Government.

      Oh well. 🙂

      They can’t help it can they

    101. Petra says:

      @ Craig Murray says at 8:52 pm …”Consider the possibility that I know a little more about what Alex thinks currently than you do.”

      Really Craig? Pretentious as ever. It’s a bad idea to presume to know everyone that Alex knows or what he currently thinks about you, Nicola Sturgeon and the Independence movement.

    102. Cubby says:

      Capella @7.40 pm

      No I am still taking the “be nice” tablets. You get them from the Herald you know.

      Sorry if you think I was being rude. It’s a statement of fact that I don’t do hero worship. It’s probably my personality trait of bearing a grudge when Mr Murray called me out WRONLY for not posting that I disagreed with Mannie Singh being charged. Particularly after I then pointed out to him where and when I had posted that I had said I did not agree. He then ignored it. Doesn’t go down well with me. So it seems he got it wrong and did not have the good grace to say so. Is that not also rude.

      Hopefully this post has been received in a nice way as intended.

      Yours in niceness.

    103. Petra says:

      I posted something at 8:12pm from my IPad. It’s still showing up on my IPad as being in moderation following Ronnie’s post at 8:09pm. Not long, no links or taboo words. However it’s not showing up on here. Any idea how that could happen?

    104. jfngw says:

      @call me dave

      As Nicola Sturgeon was launching the SNP Euro election campaign it is correct not to use the FM title. On this occasion the BBC is correct to differentiate when she is talking as FM and when as party leader.

      They often get it wrong but not on this occasion. It’s important that when we criticise them it is for legitimate errors or else it just looks like we are howling at the moon.

    105. geeo says:

      @Craig Murray.

      Fill your boots, you pretentious arse.

      You are wrong, get over yourself.

      No wonder the SNP ditched you huh ?

      (I made THAT comment before)

    106. Mad Unionist says:

      I note Mr Murray has been interviewed on RT the Russian Government funded TV Chanel. And we have Salmond and Gorgeous with shows on this Chanel. I am sure they are confident that the Gulags that did not exist have been dismantled.

    107. call me dave says:


      That’s correct there I must be more careful when distinguishing between National policy and Party events. 🙂

      Thanks for pointing that out…I don’t need the nice pills. 🙂

    108. Capella says:

      @ Cubby – point taken.
      However – to err is human, to forgive divine. (Alexander Pope, Essay in Critcism).

      I am so glad you are still taking the tablets. The tone of this commentariat will improve immensely. Pity geeo doesn’t have any. Gratuitous rudeness is so sad.

    109. Craig Murray says:

      Petra at 9.11pm,

      Of course I do not know everyone who Alex knows. You and he may be great pals, and I am sure many Wingers have the privilege of knowing Alex as he is very approachable.
      I do however know that I had two very lengthy one on one conversations with him about a fortnight ago on precisely the topics you list. So yes, I do believe I know what he thinks.

    110. A C Bruce says:

      “pretentious arse”

      He came across as unpretentious, down to earth and brave.

    111. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Mad Unionist at 9:32 pm.

      You typed,
      “I note Mr Murray has been interviewed on RT the Russian Government funded TV Chanel.”

      I further note that he has not been interviewed on the UK Government’s funded TV channel, aka ‘the BBC’.

      Back to you to justify that anomaly.

    112. Giving Goose says:

      O/T – The Sturrock report on NHS Highland.
      David Alston resigned as chairman in Feb 2019 after presiding over the chaos.
      Alston took the LibDems out of coalition with the SNP in Highland Council in 2015.
      Alston then became Chairman of NHSH in 2016.
      A cuckoo in the nest IMHO bringing the NHS down due to political hatred of the Scots Gov.

    113. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the full-English Brexit. 😉

      Brexit! Means! Brexit!
      1. Scotland/North Korea Swap

      Scotland: fiercely pro-EU, spent most of the 500 years before the Union of Crowns in alliance with the French, politically a bunch of gay-hugging pinko commie socialists, but unfortunately indispensible to England because the Royal Navy nuclear deterrent is based at Faslane.

      North Korea: fiercely independent, not even remotely an ally of France, has nukes and Juche ideology (which is pretty similar to British Conservativism, or at least British Conservativism minus the carpetbaggers and disaster capitalists), similar crinkle-cut highland landscape to Scotland.

      A quick look at the big picture (which, according to the proponents of Brexit, is the only picture that matters) indicates that North Korea is a really good fit for England’s requirement for a poor northern neighbour they can bully into tagging along on any world conquest junkets—at least compared to Nicola Sturgeon’s wee LGBT-positive social democratic Scandinavian wannabe nation. So we propose to swap Scotland for North Korea. (How? Oh, the experts can figure out how to do it. Don’t bother me with details, details are for nerds.)

      With North Korea’s votes, the Brexit arm of the Conservative party will have a baked-in majority in event of any attempt to re-run the referendum, plus a new happy home for the Royal Navy Trident missiles, a nuclear test range in the highlands (slightly leaky, one previous owner), and a whole bunch of party cadres to turn loose on any pinko back-sliders in exchange for a daily bowl of nettle soup and a moldy turnip.

      (Quite what South Korea will make of their new kilt-wearing Buckfast-drinking northern neighbours is anybody’s guess, but who cares? This isn’t about them, this is about England.)


      (Coincidentally, the key to rebuilding the British computer industry!)

      Support for Brexit correlates with a number of social issues: support for reintroducing the death penalty, selling goods in pounds and ounces, banning CFL light bulbs in favour of filament bulbs, blue passports, permitting smoking in pubs and restaurants, and reverting to the pre-1971 non-decimal currency….

    114. Petra says:

      I doubt Alex divulged too much to you Craig. You had a great track record when confronting Westminster however since then you seem to have lost most of your day to day credibility and come across as being a bit of a loose cannon and blabbermouth. Alex’s not that daft.

    115. Colin Alexander says:


      I can confirm, someone I know also received an SNP mailshot from the SNP: Signed Nicola Sturgeon.

      Right address, stranger’s name.

      I’m also told people online were also saying the PO Box address was a debt collection agency.

      At least the mail shot talked about the EU.

      Nearly made me want to switch back to SNP but, I’ll stick with the Greens.

      They never slagged off the Yes movement.

    116. Ken500 says:

      More unionist fraud, The lying imbeciles. Ruining public service and not funding essential services, Wasting public money like there is no tomorrow, Then trying to blame the SNP. Total lying charlatans. Liars always get found out. The lying unionist psycho bastards. Vote them out.

      Vote every unionist out in Scotland. Do the world a favour.

    117. Mad Unionist says:

      Doon The Toon @ 9:37pm. You would have to ask Mr Craig that question.

    118. Craig Murray says:

      Petra at 9.44pm,

      Your venom is really unpleasant. I was not interviewing Alex or pumping him for information. He invited me to dinner. And far from being a loose cannon, I am refraining from telling what he said.

    119. Legerwood says:

      David says:
      9 May, 2019 at 8:55 pm
      Ledgerwood the Brexit party money Nigel refused point blank to say where a 100 thousand pound donation came from said donor would be inundated with journalists will reveal donor after election””

      If what I read is true, and these days who knows, he is also going to reveal his policies after the election too.

      Not sure he has got the hang of this democracy/election thingy yet.

    120. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Sadly I believe you may be correct @Giving Goose says at 9:40 pm

      “A cuckoo in the nest IMHO bringing the NHS down due to political hatred of the Scots Gov.”

      NHS Grampian has Dame Anne Begg on the Board another British Nationalist with a grudge against the SNP (she lost her seat at Westminster in the wipe out of 2015).

      She also campaigned alongside the National Front in Aberdeen during the Indy Ref.

      IMHO everything and everyone in Scotland is considered acceptable collateral damage in the defence of the ‘precious Union’ to the British Nationalists.

      And it is all enthusiastically reported on the BBC and in the Dead Tree Scrolls as “Scotland shite, ‘cos EssEnnPeeBaad”.

    121. Ken500 says:

      C. Murray deletes and bans but claims to believe in free speech. Hypocrite?

      Some good comments on his blog. Some ridiculous.

    122. Robert Louis says:

      As many above point out, the interview with Craig Murray on Alex Salmond’s show, was really very interesting. Their are so many things that we could learn from him I think.

      Looking forward to part 2 next week.

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      Is that balloon, Brian Taylor, even aware of the threat that the full-English Brexit represents to Scotland’s economy and social cohesion?

      Racism, Crisis, Brexit


      This article offers a conjunctural analysis of the financial and political crisis within which Brexit occurred with a specific attentiveness to race and racism. Brexit and its aftermath have been overdetermined by racism, including racist violence. We suggest that the Leave campaign secured its victory by bringing together two contradictory but inter-locking visions. The first comprises an imperial longing to restore Britain’s place in the world as primus inter pares that occludes any coming to terms with the corrosive legacies of colonial conquest and racist subjugation.

      The second takes the form of an insular, Powellite narrative of island retreat from a “globalizing” world, one that is no longer recognizably “British”. Further, the article argues that an invisible driver of the Brexit vote and its racist aftermath has been a politicization of Englishness. We conclude by outlining some resources of hope that could potentially help to negotiate the current emergency.

      KEYWORDS: Racism, crisis, Brexit, empire, Englishness, neoliberalism

    124. jfngw says:

      Michael Gove is livid with the Scottish Government for being too far ahead of him on environmental issues, and they are doing it deliberately.

      Remember we are now drinking and recycling for independence, I never knew it would be so easy, although I’m now spending a lot more time in the bog.

    125. Craig Murray says:

      Ken 500 at 9.54pm,

      I am no more responsible for the comments on my blog than Stu is for the comments on this blog.

      A tiny number of people are banned from my blog, mostly for racism, and there are clear comments rules that lead to deletion, but less than 2% of comments are deleted. Do you have a specific complaint? have you been banned?

    126. CageyBee says:

      Got my personal Brexit party leaflet today. ripped my name out of and returned it along with 5 copies of the national and a very old Iscot mag. I may have underestimated the postage as I only had 1 2nd class saltire flag stamp left

    127. CageyBee says:

      Got my personal Brexit party leaflet today. ripped my name out of and returned it along with 5 copies of the national and a very old Iscot mag. I may have underestimated the postage as I only had 1 2nd class saltire flag stamp lef

    128. CageyBee says:

      oops sorry duplicate post have col and co got a hold of my pc?

    129. Ken500 says:

      Mr Murray went into a huff when he wa# chosen as a candidate. He publically, openly tore up his membership. For some cheap publicity. He could not stand in line. There were (too) many good candidates, Many had campaigned for years. Waited their turn and stood in line, as they should. Did not expect any favours. Just were reasonable members making up the numbers.

    130. Ken500 says:

      @ Yes

    131. Ken500 says:

      Someone said not to send back the Tory leaflets. It gives them some idea for canvassing. It gives a gauge of how many people can’t stand them.

    132. Craig Murray says:


      I have no idea why today is random attack on Craig Murray’s character today. I was turned down not in a vote of party members – I was nominated in 13 constituencies – but by the central candidate approval panel. They do not operate on the principle of “Buggins’ turn”, there is no queue to jump. I received a wrtten explanation that the panel refused me because they were not convinced of my commitment to party discipline.
      In which they were undoubtedly right as I am not really a believer in discipline being the most important quality in a person. My experience in the FCO taught me that. As you would know if you, Petra and Geeo would take half an hour off attacking me and actually watch today’s Alex Salmond show.

    133. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT. That Michael Gove is your typical Tory, thick and chauvinistic. Now OK, the EU’s environmental policy framework may have needed improvement, along with the Common Agricultural Policy, but that is no reason to refute the “Precautionary Principle”. Michael Gove is an IDEOLOGICAL EXTREMIST AND SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED ANYWHERE NEAR LEGISLATIVE POWER.

      Science for Environment Policy
      The precautionary principle: decision-making under

    134. CageyBee says:

      Ken500 says:
      9 May, 2019 at 10:12 pm
      Someone said not to send back the Tory leaflets. It gives them some idea for canvassing. It gives a gauge of how many people can’t stand them.

      I routinely send all my junk mail back to source suitably weighted so hopefully they have to pay the excess postage charge

    135. Petra says:

      @ Craig Murray says at 9:51 pm … ”I was not interviewing Alex or pumping him for information. He invited me to dinner. And far from being a loose cannon, I am refraining from telling what he said.”

      I didn’t infer that you were interviewing Alex Salmond or pumping him for information at all. Where did you get that from? You say that you are ”refraining from telling what he said”, however you have just done far worse than that on here by insinuating what he had to say about Nicola Sturgeon. Very manipulative, imo. More than anything, I doubt that Alex will be impressed with that.

    136. Robert Louis says:


      Ignore the naysayers. Their comments sound like they didn’t actually watch your interview. Their are a few on here, who seem to spend their time trying to stir it, accusing people of all kinds of things. Ignore them.

    137. Essexexile says:

      The individual who called me a c*nt and told me to f*ck off after my first few innocuous comments because he saw Essex in my profile name and decided he knew everything he needed to know about me.
      He got a warning for it, rightly. Racism should not be tolerated on these political blogs as you say Craig.

    138. yesindyref2 says:

      Thou shalt not take the name of the SNP in vain
      Thou shalt not worship at the feet of false Sturgeons
      Thou shalt not whatever the shallnots decide you shallnot shallnot

      Here endeth the lesson

    139. Cubby says:


      I have no problem with people making mistakes. I have a problem when they are not big enough to admit to it when it it is 100% clear they are wrong ( yes that’s you Mr Murray ).

      “I am so glad you are still taking the tablets. The tone of this commentariat will improve immensely”

      I’ll try and say this as nicely as possible. You comment is a bit rude – gratuitously even. I’m sure the Herald will have some of their pills left if you hurry on down to their offices. I’m afraid I’m going through my own supply at a fast rate.

    140. Craig Murray says:

      Petra at 10.25pm

      So what did you mean by:

      “I doubt Alex divulged too much to you Craig. You had a great track record when confronting Westminster however since then you seem to have lost most of your day to day credibility and come across as being a bit of a loose cannon and blabbermouth. Alex’s not that daft.”

      Why would he invite a loose cannon and a blabbermouth to dinner? I find your entire attack peculiar.

    141. Petra says:

      I had to laugh at some woman? who was being interviewed on the BBC about the sacking of Danny Baker / the Royal baby chimp tweet.

      After tweeting an apology, in which he called the tweet a “stupid unthinking gag pic, but not racist”.

      She stated that ”ignorance isn’t a defense.” Looks as though the law in England is different right enough.

    142. Cubby says:

      I’ll really really have to take a lot more be nice pills now as the poster from down south who promised he was finished posting on Wings is back.

    143. Robert Louis says:

      I see Michael Gove is greeting because the Scottish Government are introducing a bottle deposit scheme before he does in England. No matter what his party, that is just so freaking childish. An adult would say, Scotland is leading the way, and perhaps we can learn from them, but Gove just moans and greets like a wean not getting it all its own way.

      Honestly, the Tories really are toxic in everything they do and everything they think.

    144. Mad Unionist says:

      CameronB Brodie. If Gove is thick then he must set a standard with voters. He is Scottish.

    145. Craig Murray says:

      Cubby at 10.30pm,

      I am sorry, I genuinely get confused about the multiple things I am being attacked for. It is 100% clear I am being wrong about what?

    146. Petra says:

      I’ve invited loose cannons and blabbermouths to dinner but I’m extremely careful of what I say to them / in front of them, so that argument doesn’t hold water.

      Anyway we are going around in circles, so night, night Craig. Last post from me. This is an Independence blog not the Craig Murray Admiration Club.

    147. jfngw says:

      @Craig Murray

      I enjoyed the interview, it always interesting to hear others experiences. I may not always agree with everything you write, it would be slightly stange if I did but I am willing to listen to others points.

      I look forward to the detractors on here being interviewed by Alex Salmond, I’m sure he is booking them now.

    148. Capella says:

      @ Cubby – I wouldn’t touch The Herald with a barge pole. Not even for their Nice Pills, which seem to be less effective at night. Be careful in case you become dependent. You’re welcome.

      I’ve just watched Craig Murray’s interview on RT and thought it was an excellent introduction to the series. Look forward to part 2 next week. The behaviour of the British Government re torture and rendition is truly appalling.

      If Alex Salmond is interviewing all the top 10 political bloggers then we ought to see Stu appear sometime.

    149. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s taken me a bit of time, but I have decided Neil Mackay is NOT a unionist. He’s just one of the control freaks that thinks he’s doing good by controlling the plebs to his way of thinking, same as the trio of stooges and the trashcan. Sadly there’s a fair number of them in the Indy movement.

    150. CameronB Brodie says:

      To be honest, I’m beginning to get a bit fed-up with folk attacking one-another. Come on folks, we’ve a job to do.

      The Mass Psychology of Brexit

      Madness, Nietzsche wrote, is rare in individuals, but in groups it is the norm. Britain today is like a child that has been not only abandoned but literally dropped by its parents. It has broken into two different social groups, two politics, two worldviews but also, beneath the surface, two divergent ways of reorganising what psychoanalysts call an object world. (Object relations theory is Britain’s unique contribution to psychoanalysis.)

      In England – the propulsive force behind Brexit – we are dealing with the psychology of a favoured, even chosen people. When ‘God is decreeing to begin some new and great period,’ Milton wrote in Areopagitica, ‘what does he then but reveal Himself … first, to his Englishmen?’ And in The Tenure of Kings and Magistrates, he wrote that ‘we have the honour to precede other nations who are now labouring to be our followers.’ During the centuries in which Britain maintained its global empire, this sense of being special did not rest on a simple identity.

      The British Empire looked alternately towards the European continent, where it sought to maintain the balance of power, and towards the seas, where it reigned supreme. This dual perspective began to weaken when a second type of empire – Ellen Meiksins Wood called it the empire of capital – replaced the earlier one, especially during the Thatcher years. With Brexit we are dealing not with empire and loss alone but with two different forms of empire: the older, racially organised, colonial empire and the newer, City-centred, Americanised empire….

    151. Robert Louis says:

      Michael Gove,

      One of the Tory parties ‘house jocks’.

    152. Cubby says:

      Congratulations to English football for making European Football history. 4 premier league teams in the two major European Finals.

    153. yesindyref2 says:

      Vive la différence!

      But not just as in sex, in all things really. By the way, did we ever get an answer from the mad guy to that duck difference question?

      And note carefully, that’s very different to saying “By the way, did we ever get an answer to that duck difference question from the mad guy?” much to BDTT’s relief I expect!

    154. Petra says:

      Farage on QT getting loads of support from the audience. Surprise, surprise. I wish someone would ask him what his party’s policy is on privatisation of the NHS (along with Trump). That would be a real eyeopener for them. Another case of folks being duped.

    155. Hamish100 says:

      Gove is a britnat, first and foremost. Just like Blair.
      Somewhere lagging behind is Scotlands interest.
      Englands interest is not necessarily in the best interest of Scotland.

      Scotland has to shut up in the british nat world.

    156. Petra says:

      Nigel Farage has taken over that show as Fiona Bruce sits back and allows him to shout his head off over everyone else, especially Anna Soubry. Another BBC farce. That’s the BBC that seems to have a ”soft spot” for Nigel.

    157. Cubby says:

      Craig Murray@10.35pm

      Please see my post at 9.33pm. You are the one who attacked me (totally unwarranted) in the first place. So stop lumping me in with others who have their own point of view.

      Capella is right my patience is starting to wear thin – the “be nice” pills are starting to wear off.

    158. Gfaetheblock says:

      Cheers colin, googled the return address and it does come up as a debt collection firm.

      Looks like the SNP are confirming via the sun

    159. Mad Unionist says:

      Petra @ 10:55pm. The Scottish NHS cannot be privatised unless a Scottish government does it with the approval of the electorate. You are talking mince.

    160. Craig Murray says:

      Cubby at 11.01,

      Your post is 9.13, not 9.33, not that it matters.
      I apologise for accusing you of refusing to condemn the arrest of Manny Singh. I had evidently not read your comments closely enough. I am glad you condemn it.

    161. Cubby says:

      Capella @10.46pm

      Perhaps you need to remember that you were the one who criticised me in the first place. Complaining to someone about being rude in a rude manner is not a good look.

      As regards the Herald haven’t bought one of them for decades and don’t plan to ever. Never trusted the Sunday Herald either – didn’t buy it.

    162. geeo says:

      @Craig Murray 10.14pm

      And again…

      I have not ‘attacked’ you, i have told you firmly you are talking pish about me, and i called you a pretentious arse because you are too up yourself to admit you wrongly identified me as someone who said something you attributed to me.

      Not just me by all accounts.

      Just stop mis-representing people, apologise and fucking move on.

      You were on the telly, so what ?

      How does anything you say on that show change my beef with your mis-representation of things i NEVER bloody said ?

    163. CameronB Brodie says:

      Mad Unionist
      Does that mean the full-English Brexit does get allowed to happen without the approval of the Scottish electorate?

    164. Mad Unionist says:

      Petra. You are most certainly a Scottish Nationalist fundamentalist anti democratic fud who wants continuous elections until you win. At least Pinochet just killed the opposition and ended it.

    165. Petra says:

      I don’t normally reply to you MU, however firstly I’ll point out to you that I didn’t mention the Scottish NHS at all. QT is being broadcast from England. The audience I was referring are English and the NHS I was referring to is English.

      Then again if we remain in this Union, as the NHS is further privatised in England our Barnett sweety money will be cut which will impact on our SNHS. And of course, with the way things are going, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that Westminster will claw back devolved areas or as some say try to shut down Holyrood altogether. In other words you are talking ”mince” on here, as per usual.

    166. CameronB Brodie says:

      Another wee snippet for those who don’t click links.

      The Mass Psychology of Brexit

      ….The Tory Leave mentality that precipitated Brexit drew on the long-standing tradition of English exceptionalism. The best description I know of this mentality, Fintan O’Toole’s Heroic Failure, characterises it as ‘the transformation of a screw-up into a demonstration of character’. Examples include the Charge of the Light Brigade, Sir John Franklin’s doomed attempt to find the Northwest Passage in the 1840s, and Dunkirk. In each case, the British character is seen to rise above self-inflicted disaster through studied indifference, and thereby to manifest its inner superiority. Theresa May’s blind, stubborn, quasi-suicidal determination to enforce the referendum is another instance….

    167. Robert Louis says:

      If England’s NHS is privatised, but Scotland doesn’t want to, their is a major problem. The Scottish block grant, is linked to English public spending, and NHS spending is a huge chunk of that. Thus, if England no longer uses taxpayers money for NHS, then the Scottish block grant will be correspondingly dropped. Therefore, QED, even if Scotland chose not to privatise, the cut in the block grant would be so large, they would have little choice and would essentially be forced to follow England’s privatisation.

      Never trust a Tory. Or one of their mad unionists.

    168. Craig Murray says:


      My recollection is that you stated in a comment a couple of weeks ago that you do not know who I am, other than through my comments on this blog. I was merely mentioning that comment to suggest that people on this blog who don’t know it might be interested to see Alex’ retelling of my story.

      I did not accuse you of saying something awful, like you think all Belgian people should be crucified or something. I cannot quite understand why you are so upset about this. Your initial response that you do not care who I am was unpleasant and uncalled for.

    169. jfngw says:


      That would be interesting, all I have ever seen of Stuart Campbell is a few edited snippets chosen at the discretion of the BBC. A full interview where he gets to give his perspective on things is something I would definitely watch. Probably another two or three bloggers that I would be interested to hear from as well.

    170. yesindyref2 says:

      Mad Unionist isn’t an anagram of “Mundellisation”.

      I’m just saying, like.

    171. Mad Unionist says:

      Petra @ 11:14pm. The English NHS is none of your business. Try getting the waiting lists down in Scotland! There is no chance of the English NHS being privatised but do carry on with your boring untruthful crap. You should be campaigning to tax the rich, land reform and electing a Labour Government.

    172. Cubby says:

      Craig Murray @11.08

      the matter is closed as far as I am concerned. Your apology is accepted but please note I never asked for an apology just a recognition that you were wrong. Everyone makes mistakes as you kindly pointed out with my error re the posting time.

      Your in niceness.

    173. Dan says:

      @yesindyref2 at 10:30 pm

      Haha, tough gig in here tonight and I had to do a double take over what you wrote as earlier I spent a couple of hours at the local community farm planting loads of onions and shallots! Tedious finicky work teasing out the seedling from the trays and carefully embedding them in the soil. Doing that for any length of time would drive one demented and earn the title Mad Onionist.
      It certainly brings to light just how much effort it takes to produce the food we eat and where it comes from.

      I’ve been out all day so missed this plastic bottle deposit thing.
      Does this mean I can now earn a wage from cleaning along the roadside tidying up the mess twats have made throwing away their rubbish?
      Hope it’s done by weight then I can take a holiday off the back of the plastic mess BT / Openreach and their contractors left when they were installing the ducting for the fibre broadband in my area.
      My local council whinging about lack of funds when they could have chased the culprits for a large fine for corporate fly-tipping.
      See all these rules and regulations that we need to follow to hold a march, yet everyday loads of rules and regulations are not adhered to or upheld by those in authority.

    174. Mogabee says:

      I also watched Alex Salmond show, as always, and really enjoyed the relaxed interview with Craig Murray and can’t wait to see and hear the next instalment.

      I’ve struggled over last few days since the Herald and Mackay debacle so easing myself back into commenting!

      Not much to add to Stu’s article as we all remember how much of a trap the ‘so-called powers’ were judged to be from the Smith commission.

      I also recieved a letter today from SNP asking for money but addressed to someone I’ve never heard of and no idea why as they usually have a well-oiled machine in regard to mailings. Is this an accident or malicious? Haven’t a scooby. 😀

    175. Petra says:

      ‘A&E hospital waiting times (in England) hit worst level since NHS records began, figures show.’


      ‘NHS Scotland approaches perfect efficiency as cancelled operations due to capacity reasons plummet close to zero!’


      ‘After SNP policies Scotland has 30% more doctors than England BUT BBC Scotland find a Stoneyburn wifie who….’

    176. Capella says:

      @ Cubby – I thought your comment at 7.32 was rude, in the straight forward dictionary definition.

      offensively impolite or bad-mannered.

      synonyms: ill-mannered, bad-mannered, impolite, discourteous, impertinent, insolent, impudent, cheeky, audacious, presumptuous, uncivil, disrespectful, unmannerly, ill-bred, churlish, crass, curt, brusque, blunt, ungracious, graceless, brash, unpleasant, disagreeable, offhand, short, sharp;

      I thought it worth pointing out in view of your niceness campaign. Only trying to help. 🙂

      geeo’s at 6.50 is even ruder but then geeo often is, for no obvious reason. IMO

    177. CameronB Brodie says:

      Mad Unionist
      You really do spout total mince, but that is why you are here, eh? You’re not a very convincing “center-left Glaswegian”, frankly.

      Government must end the squeeze on public health spending warns new BMA report
      Government must end the “squeeze” on public health spending as services deteriorate, says new BMA report

    178. Petra says:

      ‘NHS privatisation soars as private companies win 70% of clinical contracts in England.’

      …”The news follows a forecast by the International Monetary Fund that the NHS may have to be privatised if the UK is to meet its budget deficit by 2025, a suggestion refuted by the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt.”..

    179. Dr Jim says:

      Much of England is very angry with Scotland for not wanting the same kind of Independence as they want to impose upon Scotland

      Because as we know Scotland is part of *the country* and if we in Scotland don’t want the same kind of Independence as England does then we don’t love them anymore because we’re racist, or other names

      Scotland by and large don’t want to leave the EU, we rather like different folk (but we’re racist) Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are happy, as are most of us with more immigration (but we’re racist)

      The SNP keep trying to encourage EU citizens to stay in Scotland, they even offered to pay the UK charges that were going to be imposed on them (but we’re racist)

      Had the people of Scotland had their heads screwed on correctly in 2014 and voted YES to Independence this English Brexit nonsense vote would never have taken place because England can’t afford to Brexit without the assets of Scotland to sell to other countries in lieu of trade negotiations (but we’re racist)

      Post Brexit the only part of England that can afford to be “Independent” is London but it’s quite likely they’ll have to build a wall around it to keep out the poverty stricken rest of England, and you know what, it’s quite likely they will… because they’re racist!

      Any country that comes up with and implements a policy called *the hostile environment* is racist, bigoted and every other name you can apply to them

      Scottish Independence should and will be seen as a beacon of light emanating from the British Isles if our government get this right

      Not one single person on this blog or any other can make one iota of difference with what they say to how it happens except for their vote

      Do Scotland and ourselves a favour by getting this Independence thing first then row about the implementation part of it once we’ve got it, I’m quite sure there’ll be loads of voices political and others to choose from at that time

      At the moment there’s lots of folk we like and lots we don’t but rowing with them is meaningless and achieves nothing, trolls will troll Unionist plants will decieve pretendy supporters will lie but again it all means nothing the only thing and power we have right now is our vote

      Use it and we’ll get what we want, and you know what I bet much of the rowing goes away when we do

      Power rests with the people but we’ve got to take that power first by sending England a message *Scotland doesn’t want what you want, goodbye and good luck*

    180. CameronB Brodie says:

      In case folk haven’t already twigged, Mad Unionist is full of it. Still, that doesn’t mean he isn’t useful. 😉

      Privatisation and independent
      sector provision of NHS healthcare

      Executive summary

      NHS providers and commissioners are facing unprecedented financial pressures. Every area where spending is increasing needs to be rigorously evaluated. Independent sector provision of NHS healthcare has increased every year for the past five years. More attention needs to be paid to whether it provides value for money, comparable quality and safety to NHS patients, as well as what its impact is on other NHS services.

      We surveyed BMA members on their opinions of independent sector provision of NHS healthcare. This report uses these results, as well as data from a number of privatisation indicators, to make eight recommendations regarding independent sector provision of NHS healthcare. Not all the recommendations are new but, given that England now spends nearly £7 billion per year on independent sector provision of NHS services, many are long overdue.

      The report shows that there are still a number of unknowns with regard to the independent sector provision of NHS healthcare. The recommendations are a starting point for understanding the effect that using independent sector providers of NHS care has on the NHS as a whole, as well as outlining exactly how important it is that independent sector providers are held to the same standards as NHS providers when providing NHS care.

      Key points:

      –– The BMA supports a publicly funded and publicly provided NHS. We believe that the NHS should be the preferred provider of NHS services and that commissioners should be given full autonomy …..

    181. CameronB Brodie says:

      Though privatisation does not necessarily imply a reduction in spending, any reduction in health care spending in England can be expected to have a knock-on effect on Scotland’s block grant. So Scotland would most likely be forced to follow English political interests and practice, again.

      Behind The Jargon
      Privatizing the English National Health Service: an irregular verb?


      This article explores different stakeholder perspectives of “privatization” in the English National Health Service (NHS). Much of the academic literature makes empirical claims about privatization on the basis of absent or shaky definitions of the term, resulting in much of the debate on this issue largely being a “nondebate”, where opponents talk past rather than to each other. We aim to throw light on privatization by applying the lens of the “three-dimensional” approach (ownership, finance, and regulation) of the mixed economy of welfare to the views of key voices within these debates.

      These stakeholder perspectives are political (parliamentary debates), public (opinion polls), clinical provider (British Medical Association and Royal College of Nursing), and campaigning groups. We argue that in terms of grammar, privatize seems to be an irregular verb: I want more private sector involvement: you wish to privatize the NHS. The term privatization is multidimensional, and definitions and operationalizations of the term are often implicit, unclear, and conflicting, resulting in conflicting accounts of the occurrence, chronology, and degree of privatization in the NHS. Stakeholders have divergent interests, and they use “privatization” as a means to express them, resulting in a Tower of Babel.

    182. Capella says:

      @ CBB – not worth bothering with IMO. Scroll on by.

      I think I may have done enough pastoral work on here tonight to last the rest of the year.
      Off up the little wooden hill to bedfordshire now.

    183. Dr Jim says:

      Quick Michael Gove says Scotland are trying to be Independent quicker by recycling our bottles and cans

      Now if we’d known that the queues would have been oot the door at Asda

    184. carjamtic says:

      Ahhh Them Glory Days

      The Reds, The Blues, spending their time living in the past, preserving their name and all the time leaving ours in shame.

      So synchronised, like tandem cyclists, speeding along effortlessly….unfortunately they’re facing each other and nobody is looking ahead, there’s a fall coming.

      No need to spike the wheels, just stand back and enjoy the panoramas.


    185. CameronB Brodie says:

      “@ CBB – not worth bothering with IMO. Scroll on by”

      I’ll take that the way I hope think it was meant. 🙂

    186. Ken500 says:

      @ Exile

      The one who told other people to get lost up and comes here for a wind up. Offending and swearing at many others. Doing nothing but causing trouble. Once again. Always criticising Alex Salmond. Not fit to lick his boots. The one who did more for the NE of Scotland. The only place without a by pass road. Appalling congestion. The AWPR after waiting 40 years and £Billions of Oil revenues going south. To fund Essex.

      Kettle black.

    187. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Dr Jim, most of us are not happy with MORE immigration, so please stop spouting shite. Thanks!

    188. yesindyref2 says:

      I had to read it twice 🙂

    189. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      O/T Peter Bell has an excellent article on the timely topic of keeping our eyes on the prize:

    190. Dr Jim says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist

      Sorry that upset you but numbers say we do


    191. Cubby says:


      Thank you very much for trying to help me. You are clearly a very nice person.

      Nice time you look up a definition perhaps try satire.

    192. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Dr Jim, please show me the ‘numbers’ that ‘say’ most Scots want more immigration. If you can’t do that, I would be satisfied with proof that most Scots are happy with current levels of immigration and for you to retract the use of ‘more’.


    193. Ken500 says:

      The ConDems cut the NHS £4Billion a year from 2015 to 2020, £20Billion. They described it as saving? Cameron who got voted in to support the NHS and rabbited on about how his family had used and depended on it, Cameron just bought a £8,000 Jacuzzi for his second £Million home,

      May has had to put more back in for the A&E at breaking point. The only reason it survived the winter in the rest of the UK was because there was no major flu outbreak.

      The Tories have killed off the elderly in England. 17% more have died than expected. They are killing off their voters. Life expectancy has stalled and lowered. Not increased as expected.

      Nicola and the SNP Gov increased SNHS spending from £11Billion+ to £12.5Billion. Social care means people can stay in their own homes rather than residential care or hospital. Social care £60+. Residential care £600 a week, Hospital care £600 a day.

      MUP saves the SNHS costs. Alcohol costs social care a day hospital care and earlier death.

    194. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      The full-English Brexit was driven largely by racism. England voted to Leave and Scotland voted to Remain. Ergo, England has a problem with racism that Scotland does not appear to suffer from (to the same extent anyway). Why not piss off to England if you’re so against multiculturalism? Scotland needs migration, do you think your prejudice takes preference?

    195. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Reluctant Nationalist @ 00:05,

      A curious and unsubstantiated assertion re popularity. People do keep voting SNP knowing full well the party’s policy on the matter, and not least because of the proven economic and social advantages.

    196. Cubby says:

      Farage on Question Time – again.

      BBC = Brexit Broadcasting Corporation

    197. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      (O/T In light of the recently=mentioned difficuties Firefox was having with add-ons, something seems to have been fixed now, because I just got Ghostery back.)

    198. Ken500 says:

      Most of the candidates are nominated by the branches. Mr Murray must have just been unlucky, unlucky for some 13. Then decide in an unfortunate pique to tear up his membership form. In a blaze of publicity. Did the central committee do th right thing?

      Said, Hello at the Green. Did not hold it agin. Or really skeekit. The central committee might know. Tearing up the membership is not a good sign to reapply. Burning bridges. Like the stories and the conspiracy theories on the Blog. Some good information. Some weirdos too but that gyns with the territory.

      Many people contributed to the Appeal against the manky Mail, including SNP members. Heart and convictions in the right place? Or just controversial. Auld Lang Syne.

    199. Capella says:

      @ CBB – I was replying to your previous comment about MU (while avoiding naming)- not aimed at you! If’s been a long night.

      @ Cubby – Prefer dry laconic wit 🙂

    200. CameronB Brodie says:

      I know, I was only on the wind-up. 😉

    201. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. Someone needs to invent an irony font.

    202. Cactus says:

      The meaning of power…

      Is to vote for Scotland in OUR European Elections

      Crackin’ debate on here, cheers

    203. Confused says:

      bella boy, mike small is having a whine on his site about someone said a bad word or something

      – this guy is a cringing ponce and I wish he would fuck off
      – the hit-rate to shit-rate on bella is pretty low at the best of times and when, occasionally, you get a good one, its not him writing it

      by contrast wings is – all killer, no filler – and the seethe from bella is obvious

      for the record grousebeater tweeted some banal information about his dad … shocking stuff … a minister and divorced, the kind of revelations no one can ever recover from

      – small also recently changed the comments policy because his pisspoor articles were getting savaged BTL

      – what a whining coward; for a guy whos started some shit at times, hes a weak-piss-prick when anyone gives it back to him – and now hes playing the victim card

      – whats the internet equivalent of tearing ones clothes

    204. Still Positive says:

      Alex Salmond show on RT with Craig Murray is a good watch – part 2 next week.

    205. Dr Jim says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist

      62% of Scotland voted to remain in the EU so if you voted for that you agreed to immigration because that was and is the Scottish governments policy and if you’re pro Independence for Scotland that’s the long term plan, not just of the SNP but the Greens as well and Labour and the Lib Dems will agree with it too if they’re still called that

      I can completely understand if it’s not your position, that’s your position and you’re entitled to it but the majority of the Scottish parliament agreed that position post Independence
      so you’d have to vote for some other party who doesn’t want immigration or be against Independence if you don’t want that and at the moment only Ukip and the Nigel Farage party would be against that, or maybe the Tories, but post Independence not so much I don’t think

      If every immigrant left Scotland tomorrow the country would collapse the NHS would cease to function overnight, it’s happening in England right now, it wouldn’t have but England used a greed model instead of a productive model so are overpopulated with the wrong skill needs, that’s why they do have a problem

      If Scotland has no inward immigration the NHS within 10 years would be overun with elderly patients and insufficient working age population to sustain the economy of the country to pay for it and you can’t just wait for old folk to die reducing the numbers even more

      These are undisputed facts, our population is unbalanced because our young people are not having children at a rate fast enough to combat the growth of the elderly living longer
      Scotland requires around 7 million people to self sustain because of the size of the economy

      We probably need around two or three more new towns, it’s not as if we’re full up, we have 31.000 square miles most of it empty

      Scotland is already made up of immigrants from all over the world who just became Scottish, if we don’t grow to a reasonable level we shrink and die

    206. Cactus says:

      Pocket rockets a comin’ soon to ye…

      Scotland has the power

      Return control

    207. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Massively predictable but no, not ‘ergo’, brodie. Re-read the request, please.

      I suggest that maybe, perhaps, if it’s not too much bother, you ‘piss off’ to England, you nasty little monkey, and stop trying to annoy the good people of Scotland.

    208. Graham says:

      Independence is normal.

      Its coming soon.

    209. Cactus says:

      Hey folks, it’s a Friday!

      Tune IN to Indy LIVE Radio later today for The Norrie Hunter Show

      (today’s guests include George Gunn from Yes Caithness)

      The Norrie Hunter Show, LIVE, from 11am to 2pm

      “#IndyLiveRadio early days of a better radio station”

      Or tune IN NOW for “LOVE hurts”

      NOW trending…

    210. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      A “nasty little monkey”. That the best you got, Mr. PhD in Psychology? Sure you’re not just prejudiced and bigoted?

      Prejudice and the Brexit vote: a tangled web


      The decision of the UK public in July 2016 to vote to leave the European Union was greeted with surprise within the UK and across the world. However, should we really have been surprised? Surveys of attitudes towards freedom of movement to the UK over the last 10 years have suggested an increasing negativity regarding immigration, and many debates before and after the vote have raised the issue of whether prejudice played a role in the outcome of the referendum.

      It is only within the last 12 months that a number of research study findings have started to provide a more coherent, data-informed evidence-base suggesting that voting behaviour in the referendum may have correlates to prejudice personality styles, nationalism, Islamophobia, and implicit/explicit prejudice.

      We argue that recent evidence suggests that levels of prejudice towards ‘others’ was a factor in the Brexit vote and that the attitudes underlying this vote must be explored in greater detail through cross-disciplinary scientific research, with legitimate concerns recognised and fallacies challenged.

    211. Cubby says:

      Well if it is ok not to be nice about a TV show I would just like to say:

      BBC your English Question Time programme has now degenerated into a bunch of shouty idiots shouting and being rude to each other. Now unwatchable.

      Fiona Bruce is also useless.

      Hope these comments get pass the “nice police”.

    212. Cubby says:


      I hope that not a new film your talking about. I’ll be very disappointed if it is.

    213. Cactus says:

      Cheers tae ye’s again everybuddy for the last few days talk, brilliant

      It was and continues to be SO necessary

      Vote for Scotland on the 23rd

      Intelligent conversation

      LOVE ing it

    214. CameronB Brodie says:

      Another wee snippet from above.

      Prejudice and the Brexit vote: a tangled web
      Complexities of the Brexit vote and prejudice

      ….We have known for a number of years that attitudes toward immigrants and immigration have been changing. For example, Abrams and Houston (2006) found that attitudes toward legal migration in the 2005 National Survey were largely positive, with 48% of their respondents reporting being positive about legal migration and 19% negative (but see Meuleman et al. 2009, for differences across a wider European perspective).

      Less than 10 years later a Migration Observatory survey of the perceived costs and benefits of migration showed a dramatic reversal of this figure, with 53% reporting negativity and 21% being positive about immigration, although this appears to have softened somewhat since the referendum vote (Blinder and Richards, 2018). During this time the UK has experienced, along with much of the world, the fallout from the global banking crisis of 2008.

      It has also experienced a number of years of ‘austerity measures’ implemented by successive governments to balance the books as a result of that crisis. Whether expressly felt or simply perceived by people, there can be few in the UK who have not been aware of this over the last 10 years. Realistic conflict theory (Campbell, 1965) suggests that, at a time when concern over jobs, wages, and resourcing of social facilities are seen as critical issues in society, competition with outgroups for resources will impact upon people’s attitudes. It must also be recognised that this is not purely a UK issue, with these concerns being voiced across much of Europe (e.g., Ceobanu and Escandell, 2008; Ponce, 2017)….

    215. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Dr Jim, I thought you were going to go that route, and ignore my request for proof of your claim that most Scots wanted ‘more’ immigration – and nor is it surprising the length to which you’ve gone to garishly over-dramatize the effect of cutting immigration; people like you will never stop, and never care for the effects of your lies, despite some form of sensible immigration policy being all that’s wanted.
      But, since this sick game is played by the very rank and file of the political party, it’s not as if you can be seen as some sort of 77th type. You’re just the piss on the astroturf.

    216. Cactus says:

      In summary, once again:

      “In an independent country, companies would have to make Scotland-specific VAT declarations and all the figures would be known. Benefits wouldn’t be all tangled up in a mess of conflicting responsibilities where one government is spending its time and money trying to undo the impact of decisions of another government, as with the bedroom tax. Devolving only PARTS of things is the least efficient and most wasteful approach conceivable.

      It’s a bit like, say, trying to leave the EU but while still retaining all the access and privileges of membership. And we all know how that’s working out.”

      The meaning of power.

    217. Dr Jim says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist

      Well I did attempt to be as polite and helpful as I possibly could and did mention that what I said may not be to your particular tastes but judging by your reply it looks as though you only required an answer so that you could engage in an argument of the usual foul and abusive type typical of your ilk so i’ll say goodnight to you so that you can pursue your anonymous cowardly internet attacks and abuse from the safety of wherever you are upon some other decent human being

    218. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      Now why would you try to play down England’s problem with racism?

      <bWhat does Brexit mean for Black and Asian Britain?
      Where does race and ethnicity play out in the Brexit debate? These issues were explored during the latest event held by the Mile End Institute at Queen Mary University of London.

      No deal Brexit: potentially “dangerous”

      Sunder Katwala, Director of independent thinktank British Future reflected on the potential for a no deal Brexit which he described as “dangerous” and would lead to a “blame game” against the EU and potentially other groups including ethnic minorities.

      Katwala also argued that like others, there was apathy amongst voters from ethnic minorities which Remain failed to acknowledge. “The Remain campaign was a textbook example of “cosmopolitanism without diversity,” he said.

    219. Cactus says:

      Try a shot on the roulette, tiers of cylinders like

      Middle column gamble

      8/11 + 30/33

    220. Cactus says:

      Ah LOVE 2 PLAY zero & and the splits, frequently

      It’s excellent when it comes IN


    221. Cactus says:

      Zero, that is

    222. Dr Jim says:


      You lead a rich full life

    223. Cactus says:

      Howde Dr Jim, ah try tae aye ah dae aye, and to you 2

      23 to go until we for Scotland IN Europe again

      Ah pure LOVE voting Dr Jim 🙂

    224. Cactus says:

      That’s the general idea with richfullness aye

      We inspire each other, we brainstorm, we hand around each other a flame

      Passa round the torch

    225. Cactus says:

      The meaning of power… is to regain control, of Scotland

    226. Cactus says:

      Can ah PLAY ah song 2 please please:

      You’ve been…

    227. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scotland can’t afford to and mustn’t allow racism to flourish. I’m pretty suer I’ve already posted about the “Ubuntu principles”.

      The secret to social cohesion lies in your perception | Joan Akob | TEDxUKZN

    228. Cactus says:

      How we all HOLDing up y’all, it’s tough frae the top eh aye hehe!

      The future of Scotland is unfolding upon us, make sure YOU vote for Scotland on the 23rd of May ’19 (that’s 13 days away), dinnae vote for any of them ukUnionist parties naw, let’s keep Scotland in Europe like, 62% per cent of us said so, SO what’s the percentage for independent European Scotland up 2 NOW? Glasgow voted 68% REMAIN, SO there ye go

      Europe is cool

    229. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist
      I’ll “nasty little monkey” you.

      The principles of Ubuntu: Using the legal clinical model to train agents of social change


      For the past few decades, the legal clinical model has been used as a tool to teach law students the art of practising law. Typically, this model focuses on providing law students with an opportunity to work with clients and to handle legal cases in a safe environment, and often in slow motion. Although the legal clinical model has a number of advantages in assisting students to safely transition from law students to lawyers, it falls short in stressing the importance of using the law as a tool to achieve social justice within our society.

      The purpose of this paper is to propose that the legal clinical model be revamped to train law students to become not just lawyers, but agents of social change. Although we hope this article will be of relevance to a broad international audience, the critique focuses mainly on legal education in the United States.

    230. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist
      So you consider me a menace to society? Well, that’s debatable but you’re certainly a bit of a clown, at best.

      U B U N T U
      A Person is a Person Through other Persons

    231. Willie says:

      Absolutely bang on Cactus at 2.32am.

      Voting SNP in our droves at the European election in 13 days will strengthen Scotland’s position immeasurably.

      A vote in the high sixties or seventies will send a message to Europe and Westminster. It will be a mark of where Scotland stands, written in the indelible ink of an election.

      So let us all send a message the forthcoming Thursday but next and vote SNP.

    232. Willie says:

      And whilst Westminster and it’s compliant fake news media outlets will do everything it can to dilute and censor the message that there is demand for independence and change, the MSM will be unable to hide a clear election result.

      And yes, just think how they tried to ban the Indy march in Glasgow last Saturday, how the march organiser has now been reported by a Police for convening an illegal march on a charge that could deliver 3 months in prison and you realiset the importance of sending a clear and unambiguous message.

      So for anyone wanting to help make change and have our voice heard there can only be one choice.

    233. Fergus Green says:

      In common with others who have posted above, I was thinking about sending unsolicited leaflets back to the Tories. can anyone confirm that the address below is still current?

      Scottish Conservative Central Office
      67 Northumberland Street
      Edinburgh EH3 6JG


    234. Dorothy Devine says:

      Dr Jim at nearly midnight, round of applause form me.

      Some of the rest of you get a clip round the ear for personal attacks and not taking the Heralds’ be nice’ tablets – though being nice can e a it wearing.

      Cactus , why do you not have bags under your eyes the size of suitcases like mine? See if you could bottle it you’d make a fortune – and you’re worth it!

      R.J Sutherland thanks for the Peter Bell perspective.

    235. Petra says:

      My comment is still awaiting moderation from around 8:10 last night!

    236. gus1940 says:

      On QT last night Farage confirmed that he is a scary, smug, arrogant, arrogant fascist demagogue

      What was even more scary and depressing was the applause for his rantings from the audience.

    237. Breeks says:

      Please keep posting here Craig Murray.

      I generally do agree with you and believe you make a very valuable contribution to the cause. I wonder how many other people here would reject accolades from Queen Elizabeth and tell her straight it’s because you’re a Scottish Nationalist…

      Even setting politics to one side, you have a very rare distinction of having seen the black heart of British Establishment, had the courage and integrity to call it out, and more or less survived to tell the tale.

      It’s true, I find it unnerving at times, because some of what you say “sounds” so fantastic and incredible it’s a comfort to believe it’s all a conspiracy theory,… except it isn’t. It is invariably well argued, well substantiated, well documented and a well grounded and principled challenge to the Establishment’s despicable and immoral conduct. It’s a bona fide alarm bell.

      When Scotland does become independent, if we expect to avoid the pitfalls of this less than perfect world, it will be because our naive politicians stepping up to rolls in Government will be fully briefed by Scotland’s own streetwise civil service advisors who have their finger on the pulse of what is actually happening behind closed doors and beneath the headlines.

      With the Establishments anti-Russian Novichok conspiracy, with the scandal of the White Helmets in Syria, and of course the demolition of Julian Assange, you have stood out as a vitally important alternative narrative, and furthermore, you are as likely to be an outspoken critic of the Israelis as an outspoken critic of Saudis or Shia Muslims. It’s the despicable misconduct you attack by first principles.

      I know the term loose cannon is usually derogatory, but sometimes it’s simply the nature of the beast. Some people may indeed see you as a loose cannon, but I don’t. You are an accurate, powerful and long ranged cannon that is fixed very firmly on the gun deck of the Fleets Flagship that will forever stand firm on civil decency and honest humanity… what’s more, I don’t think you could change even if you wanted to.

      Maybe you are too hot to handle for the SNP. I suppose that’s their prerogative. That might be a deficiency in the SNP, but that too is their prerogative. However, it is my earnest hope the SNP finds a way of listening to you, even if they’ll never admit it.

      For the detractors I would say this… For every one Craig Murray who would stand firm against the British Establishment, there is an indeterminate number of “Empire men” still in the Establishment system who will look the other way when the British are up to no good. Craig Murray is a rare phenomenon and every inch the “Rebellious Scot” who made our Nation what it is. Sadly, the cankerous cynicism and sneering contempt he has to put up with has also been a factor in making our Nation what it is. Think about that.

      Please people, please bring back YES. It was such a fine tall ship with enough sails for everybody from whichever direction they blew.

    238. Les Wilson says:

      yeah, death by a thousand cuts are their real intention.

    239. Abulhaq says:

      What’s good for the US is good for the world….blah blah
      What’s good for England is good for Scotland….blah blah
      We need to break free from this pathetic anglosaxon conceit.
      Scotland must have its unique place in the world.
      Useful idiots no more.

    240. Tony O"neill says:

      Well said breeks.

    241. Capella says:

      @ Petra – re your missing comment – you could either email Stu and ask him to fix it. Or copy and paste and post again but change some words so you don’t get told you’ve already posted it. Probably post again is better as the thread has moved on.

    242. HandandShrimp says:

      BBC coverage of SNP EU election launch

      SNP Trojans launch evil campaign proving they are still pro independence.

      Not much of a coverage but I suppose we got a mention.

    243. Abulhaq says:

      The linked image is so dishonest.
      Saving the British state from quitting the EU is not your day job FM, INDEPENDENCE is, as is securing a majority for that.

    244. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – I agree. I do take issue with Craig’s attacks on the SNP leadership. He may be right, but I have no reason to think Nicola Sturgeon is anything but genuine. She is by far the most competent and respected politician in the UK. The SNP would be mad to ditch her, which is why suggestions to do so come across as sabotage. It’s exactly what the Integrity Initiative would want.

      But Craig is a very astute and persuasive speaker and writer with great experience and the courage to spell out what is wrong with the Empire. I do hope he continues to post here.

      I think Alex Salmond has been very shrewd to do a series on internet political bloggers. Well done Alex.

    245. Graeme McCormick says:

      Dan says:
      9 May, 2019 at 7:23 pm
      @Graeme McCormick at 2:34 pm

      Hi Dan

      Ive now made over 40 presentations of my AGR slides and they have developed into an Alternative Growth Commission report to include UCI and the effects of robotics in the future. Ive shown it to three government ministers and several MSPs and MPs . Everywhere I go there is interesrt in it. I’m encouraging SNP members who have viewed it to press their MSPs and MPs to consider it carefully Email me on t1feu [at] hotmail [dot] com for the most up-to-date copy of the slides.


    246. Sinky says:

      After news that HMRC failed to classify one third of MSPs as Scottish taxpayers and estimated that 30,000 higher band taxpayers had failed to identify themselves as Scottish taxpayer shows that Gers and GDP figures should be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

    247. Abulhaq says:

      Brave New World of US global capitalism.
      Registered Democrats?
      Why we need a stronger politically and economically ‘non-aligned’ Europe.

    248. Ken500 says:

      Get out and vote SNP/SNP. Get one other person to vote as well. Donate, campaign do anything to succeed. Get out there and contribute to victory. EU elections. Now. Do not both with detractors.

      Vote out every Unionist in Scotland, Yes,

      One campaign at a time to victory.

    249. Welsh Sion says:

      Not one ‘Scottish’ newspaper (bar the National) leads with the launch of the SNP’s Euro Elections campaign. Quoi de neuf ?

    250. Capella says:

      @ Cubby – on behalf of the nice police I would like to confirm that it is perfectly acceptable to be rude about the BBC. In fact it’s compulsory.

      What I do object to is being rude about prominent independence supporters, even if these supporters are themselves rude about even more prominent independence supporters. It’s not a good look.

      If there is a strategic advantage in being rude to each other I’m afraid I don’t get it. Airing our dirty linen in public achieves nothing IMO.

      Arguing amongst ourselves is exactly what the Integrity Initiative would want us to do. So let’s disappoint them.

    251. Abulhaq says:

      @Capella 08:51
      There is no doubting Ms Sturgeon’s competence, it is a question, in not a few minds, as to whether that competence is being used in the ‘right direction’.
      Critiquing initiatives is not sabotage. The stakes are high, all or nothing is now the situation.
      The British state is in a political quandary, opportunities galore!

    252. A C Bruce says:

      Breeks @ 7.55.

      I think Craig Murray is an asset, has a lot of knowledge about governments and diplomacy and what they will accept in how a colony, vassal or mug state recovers its independence.

      It was like Cynics Incorporated on here last night.

      I can understand why some people don’t agree with the FM’s gradualist approach. I think most countries which became independent didn’t have a referendum (except confirmatory, perhaps) or ask for a S30 – or equivalent – to break away from the bigger state. In fact, breaking the law of the bigger state is expected as the UK Government pointed out in its submission to the International Court at the Hague about Kosovan independence in ?2009.

      National Assembly anyone?

    253. Abulhaq says:

      @Welsh Sion 09:13
      Caught it on ITN, got 7 secs….WOW!

    254. Breeks says:

      Capella says:
      10 May, 2019 at 8:51 am

      @ Breeks – I agree. I do take issue with Craig’s attacks on the SNP leadership. He may be right, but I have no reason to think Nicola Sturgeon is anything but genuine. She is by far the most competent and respected politician in the UK…

      I can’t speak for Craig Murray, but being sincere and genuine doesn’t exclude the possibility of being wrong or not seeing the wood for the trees.

      All we are getting is Battle Plan Enigma, and wait until we see the whites of their eyes.

      What gives me hope is Ian Blackford assertion that Scotland will not be removed from Europe, which lies at uncomfortable odds with the patchwork quilt of Post-Brexit strategies and determination above and beyond the call of duty to stop Brexit happening.

      If the SNP wants to stop people scratching their heads wondering WTF we’re meant to be doing, I hate to break the news, but the buck stops at Leadership. Currently, that’s the missing component.

      Can anybody tell me definitively WHY we are trying to stop Brexit? Or more succinctly, why does it appear saving the UK from Brexit is the primary strategy and saving Scotland from the UK is playing second fiddle?

      Given the circumstances we find ourselves to be in, isn’t that the question we should ALL be asking?

    255. Capella says:

      @ Breeks @ Abulhaq – I do accept that the leadership is playing a waiting game. It is clear to me that if they call an Indyref too soon then Westminster will simply park BREXIT to spike the Independence guns. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if that is why BREXIT is taking so long. How to achieve it without allowing Scotland a golden opportunity to break free.

      I’m probably just more patient than some 🙂

    256. stu mac says:

      @Abulhaq says:
      10 May, 2019 at 9:10 am
      Brave New World of US global capitalism. Registered Democrats? Why we need a stronger politically and economically ‘non-aligned’ Europe.

      Another reason why we need a stronger politically and economically ‘non-aligned’ Europe.

    257. Colin Alexander says:

      Holyrood – Definition:

      A pretend parliament, so Scotland’s politicians are bought off, giving a pretence of democracy whilst real power remains at Westminster.

      Westminster – Definition: common reference to UK Parliament.

      UK Parliament – Definition: Crown, Lord and Commons. Asserts and exercises sovereignty over the people of Scotland on the basis that the monarch of The Kingdom England is sovereign. That monarch then loans that sovereignty to UK Parliament to exercise on their behalf.

      A concept and legal status of “sovereign monarch” that is alien to Scots constitutional Law and Scotland’s constitutional traditions.

      Crown – Definition: The unelected monarch. Sovereign in English Law. Includes UK Govt who exercises Crown power, such as “Henry VIII” powers. Though Henry VIII was King of England, never a king of a United Kingdom.

      Lords- Definition: Unelected robber Barons, Anglican Bishops, Life peers and hereditary peers, who rule over Scotland’s parliament without ever being elected.

      When the unelected Lords crushed the Holyrood Continuity Bill.

      Democracy died in Scotland.

      With the ripped up devolution settlement, and Brexit power grab by Westminster, democracy was cremated..

      Now we’re told: No ! You can have democracy, only when Westminster permits it.
      You’re imperial masters have spoken. Bend the knee.

      The time for colonial government at Holyrood is over.

      Time for a real Parliament of Scotland that serves the people of Scotland. That answers to the people of Scotland, not to unelected “vermin in Ermine” robber barons.

      Why should Scotland be independent? Democracy. So, we can elect politicians who serve Scotland and we can build a better, more prosperous, fairer nation for all.

    258. Lenny Hartley says:

      Breeks @0755 re Craig Murray, very well said. I am uncomfortable on his attacks on the SNP Leadership however he is entitled to his opinion and may have a point, time will tell.
      For what its worth, i think Nicola Sturgeon is 100% commited to Independence , she is getting more Intel than anybody else on the Yes side, im confident that she will take the right and successful course to Indy.

    259. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – it’s possible that the SNP leadership is not trying to stop BREXIT, nor trying to save the UK. Another explanation is that they are trying to save Scotland from BREXIT and the UK.

      The UK was supposed to exit on 29th March. The Tory party is imploding and the Labour Party ditto. The EU elections are in 2 weeks. If the SNP do well then it demonstrates, to fellow Scots as much as anyone else, that we endorse staying in the EU – even if England and Wales leave.

      A massive “we hate the SNP” campaign, waged mostly online, at this stage is very damaging to that prospect. Coincidence?

      Don’t forget that the II achieves its aims by demoralising their opponents and causing them to stay at home and not vote. Let’s not help them do that. Vote SNP/SNP and encourage everyone elses to do the same.

    260. Sinky says:

      Has anyone heard or seen on TV news bulletins that the EU tactical vote drive by Gina Millar is to vote SNP in Scotland as the best option for Remain voters?

      Thought not. Yet the BBC continues with its wall to wall coverage of Nigel Farage which have Ukip a seat in last Euro elections.

    261. Dan says:

      @Graeme McCormick at 8:55 am

      Thanks for responding Graeme, and good to hear the idea is getting further exposure.
      It sounds like you are still giving talks. If that is the case I’d highly recommend folk reading this consider getting Graeme along to their local YES or SNP group to see his presentation.

      We know the MSM will not inform us of many interesting subjects and ideas that threaten the status quo. Local YES groups can begin to raise awareness of alternatives.
      I attended the excellent 1st Gathering event in Stirling last year. One of the discussions group subjects was about creating new, and developing existing YES groups so we can continue to reach the wider public, giving them the opportunity to attend talks and events that may open their minds as to how Scotland could do things differently and in a more beneficial way.
      If you’re already involved with a local YES group then consider asking more receptive to the idea of Indy folk to sign up to the group’s email correspondences, or if you’re currently not involved, then have a search around for your nearest group and ask to be included in their comms so you’re kept informed of events you may want to attend.

    262. TD says:

      Breeks at 9.29 a.m.

      “Can anybody tell me definitively WHY we are trying to stop Brexit”

      You ask a lot if you are seeking a definitive answer. But I have one or two suggestions.

      First, we are in the UK and if Brexit happens, we will probably be in the UK at that time. If I am made to choose between being in the UK and the EU or being in the UK outside the EU, I would choose being in the UK and the EU. Both options are distasteful, but at least if the UK is in the EU, the excesses of the rabid right are curtailed a bit.

      Second, when we do become independent, if the UK is in the EU there is every likelihood that Scotland will continue in Europe with no break. This is not what we were repeatedly told in 2014, but guess what – we were lied to. The EU would not throw Scotland out – if they did they would need to throw England out as the other half of the now defunct UK. On the other hand, if the UK leaves the EU before we leave the UK, we will need to go through some sort of application process. I think we would be fast-tracked, but better to have continuity of membership.

      Third, looking to the future when Scotland is free of the UK, it will be much better for us if England is in the EU. If it is not, life will be harder for our exporters sending goods through England to mainland Europe. It will be similar to the Irish border problem, but hopefully without the threat of violence. Better if England stays in.

      Fourthly, while I do not want to be in a union with England or to be governed by them, I do not wish England any harm. We do have many ties with England and many of us have friends or relatives living there. Brexit will be so damaging to England – never mind Scotland – that I would not wish it on them. So I hope it can be stopped.

      So not definitive answers – just a few suggestions.

    263. A C Bruce says:

      “Third, looking to the future when Scotland is free of the UK, it will be much better for us if England is in the EU. If it is not, life will be harder for our exporters sending goods through England to mainland Europe.”

      Eek! We’d open up our own ports and make use of Prestwick Airport for freight too surely. No more long freight treks down the full length of England.

    264. Derek Rogers says:

      @ Breeks at 9:29 am

      All we are getting is Battle Plan Enigma…If the SNP wants to stop people scratching their heads wondering WTF we’re meant to be doing, I hate to break the news, but the buck stops at Leadership. Currently, that’s the missing component.


      Absolutely agree, and Wee Ginger Dug agrees too. One set of signs – those observed by Craig Murray – suggest that independence could be postponed indefinitely; but other interpretations are possible. We need to look at what is happening, and think about it objectively.

    265. Clydebuilt says:


      ” a we hate the SNP campaign at this time is damaging”

      Agreed, so has Robertson or Smith made any statements to distance themselves from the article or their own (supposed) statements? Have these guys done anything to rectify the situation? I read MacDonald’s piece in the National didn’t like,it but at least he felt the need to say something.

      SNP EU Election Campaign

      Has anyone heard any mention of the launch on BBC Radio Scotland. . . . BBC Radio 2 covered it yesterday afternoon in news bulletins.

    266. TD says:

      A C Bruce at 10:30

      “We’d open up our own ports and make use of Prestwick Airport for freight too surely. No more long freight treks down the full length of England”

      If that is so easy, why isn’t it happening now? The only direct ferry to Europe ceased operations last year – presumably because it was uneconomic. Prestwick is used for air freight now – but on a limited scale. The reason is that it is cheaper to use road freight through England. If that becomes difficult or expensive, the additional costs of alternative routes would be borne by our export businesses. And if all our imports had to come by direct ferry or air freight – guess what – prices would rise.

      It is vital that our links to Europe through England are maintained. If we are in Europe and England is out life will be more difficult. These difficulties might be mitigated by trade deals or custom arrangements, but it will be much simpler if both Scotland and England are in the EU.

    267. Breeks says:

      Capella says:
      10 May, 2019 at 9:35 am

      @ Breeks @ Abulhaq – I do accept that the leadership is playing a waiting game. It is clear to me that if they call an Indyref too soon then Westminster will simply park BREXIT to spike the Independence guns. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if that is why BREXIT is taking so long. How to achieve it without allowing Scotland a golden opportunity to break free.

      I’m not deaf to that possibility Capella, but how do you square Nicola’s softly softly approach with Ian Blackford’s red line on sovereignty? Don’t you see an incompatible narrative that’s internal to the SNP?

      To be blunt, if Nicola is saying nothing to keep the BritNats guessing, isn’t Ian Blackford blowing that strategy out the water by telling the House explicitly that Scotland will pull the constitutional rip cord if Brexited against our will? And vice versa, isn’t Nicola Sturgeon leaving Ian Blackford out on a limb by adopting a different interpretation of sovereignty?

      Do you at least see the contradiction?

    268. TJenny says:

      From twitter: Tories hold Haddington Council seat in by election. Boo. ;-(

    269. A C Bruce says:

      Re: freight through England.

      The ports were closed and most freight then did the long journey through England. Thatcher’s idea? Makes Scotland dependent on England and the English count our exports as theirs. A nice little ruse which makes our country look awfully poor and they can pockle the GERS figures though we’ve cottoned on to that – well some of us have at any rate.

      Why therefore would an independent Scotland continue carry its freight through England to the Continent? Not very independent that. We would open up our own ports thus providing employment for our own people. I’m sure England would be happy to lose our freight from its roads.

      I don’t expect the Irish will take its freight through England either once England has left the EU hence that enormous ferry it has had built.

    270. yesindyref2 says:

      Prestwick being on the great circle was a hub for freight, but the UK Gov screwed things up, so the likes of Fedex who had a base at Prestwick, moved it to Stanstead. iScotland could change this back, though the current “climate emergency” kneejerk wouldn’t help.

      Dispute between the US and UK, Scotland gets fucked. So what’s new there.

    271. Republicofscotland says:

      On Craig Murray.

      I think he’d be an assest to an independent Scotland, his years in the FCO, and his broad knowledge on Maritime law (Scotland’s surrounded by the stuff) would be invaluable to our nation.

      Some people though just can’t handle constructive criticism.

    272. Capella says:

      @ Clydebuilt – I’ve just scrolled through Alyn Smith’s twitter account and didn’t see any distancing to the “cybernat” affair – he has a tweet link to the Herald article.

      However, it is clear that he is trying to prevent Troll and Bot accounts from damaging the YES movement. It’s in that context that his comments in the Herald should be seen. See this thread:

      Of course they have been used by Neil Mackay to enrage the YES movement. Is that a surprise? I’m surprised so many people oblige the unionist press and throw the toys out of the pram, on cue.

      He and his colleagues, including Angus Robertson, are on a relentless campaign trail for the EU elections. Margaret Ferrier and Christian Allard join them as do other SNP MPs and MSPs. Possibly they believe that campaigning fr the SNP is the best use of their time? I agree with that. Everything else is secondary to be filed in the “deal with when we are independent” file.

    273. manandboy says:

      We all have the capacity to say things in the ‘heat of the moment’ which we later regret, for a variety of reasons. But this is only one example of how emotion does interfere with our ability to think clearly, particularly so, when feelings are running high, or when we are under pressure, or under sustained attack.

      This is manifestly the environment the Independence movement finds itself in. But, again, this only highlights once again the strategic need to control the emotions, to stay calm, keep our nerve, manage the pressure, and as far as is humanly possible, and think clearly.

      It should never be forgotten, but it gets forgotten in Scotland, that the English Establishment is on a slippery slope, like never before, and is faced with the imminent possibility of political and social disruption resulting in radical change in the power structure.

      Brexit has released an avalanche of forces in England which is still moving downhill at pace, with no sign yet of it’s energy dissipating, nor where or how it will end. The forthcoming EU elections, if they happen in the UK, will only add to the shambles and mayhem which currently passes for political governance south of the border. In such circumstances as these, the Yes movement would have to be certifiable were it to make any big strategic decisions any time soon. And yet many think that way, as evidenced on these pages.

      And so we carry on, even though the tyres need some air, the radiator has a wee leak, causing the engine to overheat, the brakes could be better and the steering is a bit loose, and Ruthie’s battering the windscreen with a hammer. But at least there’s plenty of fuel in the tank. We hope.

    274. TD says:

      A C Bruce at 10:59 a.m.

      The choice of route for importing or exporting goods is determined primarily by cost and speed. At the moment, in terms of goods going to or from Europe, the vast bulk of Scottish goods go by road and ferry across the Channel. That is because road freight offers the best combination of cost and speed.

      If Scotland is independent in the EU and England is out of the EU and as a result road freight becomes more expensive or slower, then of course, that will change the calculus and it may well be that more freight will go through Prestwick and direct ferries might start up again. But it will be more expensive. Hence my statement that it would be better if England stayed in the EU. I can’t make it any simpler.

    275. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – no I don’t see Nicola’s and Ian’s statements as contradictory. Ian Blackford would not be so adamant about us not leaving the EU against our will in the HoC if his position was not endorsed by Nicola Sturgeon, who is the leader of the SNP. I am certain I have heard Nicola say the same (but can’t be bothered searching for clips ATM).

      The most important demonstration of the will of the Scottish people now is electing all the SNP candidates to the EU on 23rd May – less than two weeks away.

      Ruth Davidson understands that, which is why she has circulated a leaflet making exactly that point. The EU elections are between the SNP and the Unionist parties. The result will determine the next stage of the BREXIT talks.

      Vote SNP/SNP.

    276. Giving Goose says:


      Theo Usherwood, LBC radio’s political correspondent said something along the lines that it was a 2 horse race in Scotland between the SNP and Farage’s Falange.
      It was an acknowledgement that voting SNP in Scotland is the only way to stop Brexit.

    277. Dan says:

      @TD & AC Bruce

      I’ve read about recent and ongoing development work at Scottish ports such as Dundee, Montrose and Rosyth.
      A quick search suggests the works may be for specific activities relating to oil / renewable industries at Montrose and Dundee, and agri-business at Rosyth.
      I wonder how big our conventional container handling ports would actually need to be to cope with Scottish requirements.
      The big ports down south in England have to handle freight volumes for the entire UK population, where as Scotland’s population is roughly a tenth of that figure so proportionally our ports wouldn’t need to be capable of handling such large volumes.
      The economic effect of currently having all this infrastructure and jobs located down south is another factor too.
      There used to be a commenter on Wings a while back who seemed very knowledgeable about port activity and export / import matters. He didn’t post often but when he did it was interesting reading.
      I can’t recall his name though and I lost links to his posts when my old PC expired…

    278. A C Bruce says:

      TD @ 11.12

      A lot of things will change once Scotland is independent, methods of moving freight will probably change too.

      And we might even, like Norway, having a burgeoning shipbuilding industry again which would be quite nice, don’t you think, for a country almost surrounded by sea. Then we can actually use those ships to transport our exports and imports like a proper, independent, country. Makes sense, don’t you think.

      But thanks for making it simple for little ole me. Maybe I’m more imaginative than you. To me, independence means doing it our way not continuing to depend on England.

    279. A C Bruce says:

      Thanks for the information, Dan.

      That sounds really interesting. When I have time, I will try to look further into this.

    280. Terry callachan says:

      Probably the best explanation of why so many people in the Scottish independence movement are unhappy about the SNP

      Well done Robin McAlpine

    281. galamcennalath says:

      I have always been convinced that maintaining the UK is much more important than delivering Brexit.

      While many English Nationalists would ‘sacrifice’ the union, the Establishment will want to maintain their UK before all else. IMO they would delay, abandon, or go very soft on Brexit to thwart Scottish Indy.

      If Nicola were to declare a date for IndyRef2, the next thing we would hear is Brexit being pushed beyond they date. Despite the howls of über EnglishNats, everything would focus on the UK union.

      Everyone of every persuasion knows the UK union is at its most vulnerable because of the full and very English Brexit. I have no doubt the upper levels of the SNP know this is probably the best chance ever for independence. Getting timing right is a bu99er of a decision to have to make. And patience isn’t easy.

      I for one still have faith in Nicola. The caveat is ‘still’.

    282. TD says:

      Indyref2 at 11:05

      I am quite sure that when Scotland is independent, companies like Fedex will revisit their arrangements for moving freight and it could well be that they re-establish their Prestwick hub. But air freight can never substitute for road freight in terms of volumes of goods transported. Air freight is horrendously expensive and is only suitable for high value goods that are needed in a hurry (and preferably do not weigh too much).

      Direct ferries to Europe could be re-established, but if they are it will cost more to use them than sending goods by road. How do we know this? Because even when there was a direct freight only service from Rosyth to Zeebrugge freight companies chose to send their trucks to Dover and across the Channel leading to the demise of the service. It did not prove economic to provide the ferry service at a price that could compete with road freight. If the freight companies incur extra costs that will affect every one of us and slow our economy down.

      It is therefore of strategic importance to Scotland both now, within the UK, and in the future when Scotland is independent in Europe, that England remains in the EU. So the SNP are absolutely right to do all they can to prevent Brexit.

    283. yesindyref2 says:

      The problem is there are (genuine) people who won’t put leaflets around now for the EU elections, are leaving the SNP, won;t bother voting, so it’s not something Smith and Robertson can just “leave until we’re independent”. By having endorsed the Herald article and NOT distancing themselves after, they’re doing real damage to the SNP EU election campaign.

      Which doesn’t affect Smith, he’s all right Jack as he’s number 1 on the SNP list.

      A bit of a shame for Margaret Ferrier who is number 4 on the list, was in with a chance, and WAS on the march and I think stage afterwards. Smith gets his arrogant stupidity, Ferrier suffers not him.

    284. Welsh Sion says:

      AbdulHaq @ 9.24 am

      That’s seven seconds more than Plaid Cymru got! 😉

    285. yesindyref2 says:

      I sent a package via Fedex some years back, to Kuwait. Picked up, taken to Glasgow, then Edinburgh, then Newcastle then Standted by road. Then by air. Delay – 1 day. With Prestwick back in hub operation, that’d be 1 day less others could compete with me to get there first. Didn’t matter to me, but could and would to high-tech, games and life sciences. And air freight isn’t that expensive really, not for a few hundred kilos. I had some from India years ago. Container loads, yes. Send / receive by sea.

      As for the likes of Southampton, yes it’s cheaper to go from there, same thing went for Ireland. That hasn’t stopped stupid Ireland from reducing the freight through the UK and increasing their direct freight to France and Belgium over the last few years. Stupid Irish, eh!

    286. Capella says:

      @ yesindyref2 – if there are people who will not canvas for the SNP in the EU elections because of an article in The Herald, then they are not “genuine” supporters at all. We all know how mendacious the MSM is.

      But people who genuinely disagree with the policies of the SNP should join a political party whose policies they agree with.

      If that means the SNP lose the EU elections, lose the next Holyrood elections and lose the next Westminster elections then so be it. That will be the will of the Scottish people, who are sovereign.

      If that happens we can conclude that we really are too stupid to be independent.

    287. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella “@ yesindyref2 – if there are people who will not canvas for the SNP in the EU elections because of an article in The Herald, then they are not “genuine” supporters at all. We all know how mendacious the MSM is.

      They are genuine [1], and it’s not so much the Herald article as that the stupid 3 endorsed the article with tweets and links, and Smith even with a #tag buyapaper.

      Only Stewart MacDonald made a half-hearted attempt to distance himself from the “cybernat” headline, and as some have pointed out, the brainless trio are all cybernats themselves, as is the trash operator.

      [1] Why oh why do people have to say “they’re not genuine” because they have a different point of view? By my calculations there’s only one single genuine Independence Supporter in the whole of Scotland, and that’s a dug.

    288. Colin Alexander says:


      If the SNP leader or deputies came out censuring A. Smith and Angus Robertson etc and condemning the article that smears the Yes movement and online bloggers I’d vote SNP in the Euros, but nae chance when the smear remains.

      I’m no coming to the SNP’s heel like a skelped dug after that slap in the face to all Yessers and bloggers.

      Stu Campbell, Paul Kavanagh, Craig Murray, James Kelly et al and especially the greater YES movement have done more for the cause of Scottish independence than Alyn Smith has ever done on the EU gravy train.

      If the SNP bomb in the Euros, the fault lies squarely with Smith, Robertson and the other arrogant SNP politicians.

      I’ll be voting pro-indy. Scottish Green Party.

    289. Dorothy Devine says:

      Capella , a round of applause for you too!

    290. jfngw says:

      You only get one vote in the Euro elections (unless you are in NI). As I have seen people proclaim vote SNP/SNP then you risk having your vote voided if you put more than one vote.

      Just one cross beside the SNP candidate is all that is required.

    291. CameronB Brodie says:

      Looking at the full-English Brexit from the perspective of the legal clinical model, I fully endorse every effort made to stop England self-harming. Scotland is geographically and culturally linked with England, and will suffer as a consequence of England’s avoidable misfortune.

      Brexit: the implications for health and social care

      Brexit has major implications for health and social care in England. Here we look at some of the latest developments that could impact the health and care system in England.

    292. A C Bruce says:

      “Just one cross beside the SNP candidate is all that is required.”

      Sorry, can I just say its a cross against the SNP party name; there won’t be candidate names on the voting paper.

      Seats will be then be assigned via the d’Hondt system.

    293. Cubby says:


      Cactus live on Indylive radio right now.

      Cactus you come across very well on radio. Cactus is Mr Sensible – nothing like the wild sweary man some posters complain about. Good on you Cactus.

    294. yesindyref2 says:

      f the SNP leader or deputies came out censuring A. Smith and Angus Robertson etc and condemning the article that smears the Yes movement and online bloggers I’d vote SNP in the Euros

      Would ye, aye?

    295. Cubby says:


      No argument from me.

    296. CameronB Brodie says:

      More from the clinical legal model perspective on the process of the full-English Brexit. IMHO, Scotland better choose to become independent soon, or English cultural exceptionalism will undermine Scotland’s public health. Marvelous.

      Brexit: EU legislation expected to apply or be implemented in UK pre-Brexit and during transition: tracker

      EU legislation in the UK after Brexit under deal and no-deal scenarios

      The way in which EU legislation will apply to or be implemented in the UK after Brexit, and the extent to which it will apply or be implemented, will differ depending on whether or not the UK and the EU conclude a withdrawal agreement before the UK leaves the EU on exit day:

      In a no-deal scenario (meaning no withdrawal agreement and no transition period), once the UK has left the EU, EU law will no longer flow into the UK legal system under the European Communities Act 1972 (ECA 1972) and the UK will no longer be obliged to implement EU law in domestic law. Provisions in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (EUWA) will retain most existing EU law in UK law after exit day by creating a new body of retained EU law, and the UK would decide whether to mirror any post-exit developments in EU law in domestic law by amending that body of retained EU law. For more information, see Practice note, Brexit: Article 50 and the withdrawal process: Exit day for purposes of EUWA.

      If there is a transition period, the draft withdrawal agreement text provides that most EU law (including as amended or supplemented) will continue to apply to the UK during the transition period, which will run until 31 December 2020, unless extended. During the transition period, the UK will therefore need to continue applying and implementing EU law that falls within the scope of the withdrawal agreement. The government has indicated that the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill will save the effect of parts of the ECA 1972 for the duration of the transition period, and the EUWA will be amended to take the snapshot of retained EU law at the end of the transition period instead of on exit day.

      For more information, see Practice note, Brexit: transitional arrangements: Application of EU law to UK during transition, Legal basis for transitional arrangements in UK law and Practice note, Brexit: transitional arrangements: Duration of transition period and extension.

    297. Welsh Sion says:

      For info.

      20 years after the opening of the National Assembly for Wales, an opinion poll as to what Welsh people think of the status quo. (I was not asked.)

      Independence – 12%
      More powers to the Assembly – 27%
      Leave as now – 25%
      Fewer Powers to the Assembly- 4%
      No devolution – 15%
      Don’t Know – 17%

      Sources: YouGov/ITV Cymru Wales, 1 025 Welsh adults, 6 May 2019

    298. Legerwood says:

      Breeks @ 10.47 am
      “” To be blunt, if Nicola is saying nothing to keep the BritNats guessing, isn’t Ian Blackford blowing that strategy out the water by telling the House explicitly that Scotland will pull the constitutional rip cord if Brexited against our will? And vice versa, isn’t Nicola Sturgeon leaving Ian Blackford out on a limb by adopting a different interpretation of sovereignty?

      Do you at least see the contradiction?””


      There is no contradiction and Ms Sturgeon has not left Mr Blackford out on a limb or was I mistaken when she said at the conference that there was going to be an indyref before the end of this parliament?

      There seems to me to be an awful lot of people on here working themselves up into a lather and once more, as in 2017, fail to turn up to vote in support of the SNP and thus demonstrate beyond doubt the appetite and support for independence that exists within Scotland and the people of Scotland.

      In 2017 Ms Sturgeon set out the need for a 2nd referendum and that was endorsed by the Scottish Parliament. Then May called a gE thus giving the people of Scotland a chance to show they endorsed the SG and Holyrood on the issue of an Indyref.

      And what did the people do? Stayed at home because the word ‘Independence’ was not said day and daily like a child’s catechism by the SNP. Thus they handed the Unionists the bragging rights to ‘victory’ and undermined the position of the SNP with regards to a second indyref because the Unionists could point to the result and say people do not want it.

      And it looks like people are going to do it again.

      Short version – people are cutting of their nose to spite their faces – again.

      If people had really been paying attention then they would know just how much groundwork the SG has done in preparation for a second referendum.

      As to Ms Sturgeon repeating Ian Blackford’s mantra I think you may find she said it at the rally in London if I remember correctly.

    299. yesindyref2 says:

      Just got my postal vote in, it’s got 8 parties in alphabetical order with their 6 candidates listed, with just one box per party, and then two independents with the one name listed, one box each, total 10 boxes.

    300. Capella says:

      @ yesindyref2 – I didn’t say people are not genuine supporters of the SNP if they have different opinions. I have different opinions over some issues.

      I said they are not genuine supporters if they will not vote or persuade others to vote for the SNP in the EU elections – and advertise that far and wide.

      Has Stewart MacDonald’s “half hearted attempt” been well received by the “don’t vote for the SNP” advocates? If not, that may explain why the others have decided to keep calm and carry on.

      As for Mharie Hunter calling people “trash”. That is totally unacceptable IMO.

      @ Dorothy Devine 🙂

    301. Dr Jim says:

      You tell Westminster what you’re doing or planning they’ll alter or change the rules so you can’t

    302. Jeff says:

      Why rely on south of the border ferry links only? Should there not be plans being made right now for a massive port on the site of the now demolished Cockenzie power station in East Lothian, to facilitate freight, ferry and cruise ship access. Cockenzie also had/has a rail link for coal trains to enter, so it would be so easy to have freight train access also, and a railway station/ferry terminal for foot passengers.
      All of the European countries on the north sea coast have multiple ferry/freight ports (Ijmuiden, Rotterdam, Antwerp, Oostende, Calais, Le Havre etc etc etc) why would we want to be any different?

    303. jfngw says:


      What is the return address, it’s not to returning officer Davidson is it?

    304. jfngw says:


      It depends on your attributes, some of us don’t have the interpersonal skills to persuade people. I tried it with a couple of friends in 2014, I think I had the opposite effect of what was intended.

      Some people are good at talking to people and some us are not quick enough when thrown a random question we don’t know the answer to. Being a canvasser is actually a skill as with anything in life, if you are not good at it it may be better to pass.

    305. yesindyref2 says:

      The Local Returning Officer
      North Ayrshire Council
      Cunninghame House
      KA12 2SA

      Same as for the past 18 years I’ve had a postal vote, including the one Gibson won by 42 votes to give the SNP a 1 seat majority in 2007.

      Chances are it’ll be posted in a Post Office where the owner is a YESser.

    306. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Scottish Law Society
      Given the full-English Brexit was significantly shaped by racism, here’s some homework for your members who have yet to ditermine whether they are rational liberals or supporters of the New Right and (white) British nationalism. Do these members perhaps consider Article 50 to be “good” law? Are they perhaps due some re-training?

      American Law: An Introduction

      This chapter explores the relationship between law and social change. Law can affect behavior and promote social change in a number of ways, including the use of sanctions or, more subtly, by channeling behavior through default rules and other “nudges.” The law may also hold back social change by locking older patterns of race, sex, and class into place. A large part of this chapter is devoted to the role of the law in race relations, from slavery to affirmative action. The final part of the chapter looks at a number of recent examples of law and social change, including cohabitation, surrogacy, and same-sex marriage.

      Keywords: social change, default rules, race, slavery, affirmative action, cohabitation, surrogacy, same-sex marriage

    307. A C Bruce says:

      Jeff @ 12.21.

      Quite right. Our own links to the continent like a normal country.

    308. jfngw says:

      A C Bruce

      I take your point but the candidates names are on the voting paper, in their party preference order I assume. I did look at a voting paper example before my comment, are you one of the pin head dancers?

    309. Dr Jim says:

      Fiona Bruce said that Nigel Farage’s poster was ancient history, that must make Scotland’s referendum positively neolithic

      Funny how some people measure time, the way they tell it Scotland’s referendum just happened but good old Nige’s behaviour is a thing of ancient history

    310. Stravaiger says:

      I think I’ve said this before, but I’ll spell it out more directly. The FM is saying all the right things, if looked at from a European perspective. Brexit is never going to be cancelled, and even if it was it would not be because of anything the FM or a wider Scotland did. We know that. She knows that. What the FM or the SNP says isn’t always directed at us.

    311. jfngw says:


      My postal vote comment wasn’t supposed to be taken seriously, it was a throw away joke, obviously not a very good one.

    312. A C Bruce says:

      jfngw @ 12.35

      Nah. My dancing days are over.

      I made the remark in case some people got the wrong idea and thought they had to vote for the candidate rather than the party. Our different voting systems can be confusing.

      Apologies for stepping on your toes; I hope it doesn’t hurt too much and you recover soon.

    313. Capella says:

      Tasmina has an article in The National:
      “While the MSM promotes hate, pro-indy bloggers do great work”

      There are some glimmers of light. One is the authority by which online commentators take apart the crude dog whistling of much of the media powers-that-be. More and more people are searching for the truth online and with Wings, Bella Caledonia and Craig Murray (to name but three of a number), we see independence supporting information sites dominating the web. I yield to no-one in my condemnation of bad online behaviour and since I have been the target of much abuse I really do know what I am talking about. However, you would have to be buttoned up the back not to appreciate the value of some of these contributions and I puzzle at the motivation of those who don’t.

      Now Tasmina is SNP and, like Angus Robertson, lost her seat at the last election. Yet here she is praising Stu and Craig. So now everyone can start voting SNP again as balance has been restored.

    314. Capella says:

      The previous comment wouldn’t post with the link to The National. No idea why. So to read the whole article you will need to go to the online site. Worth it.

      @ jfngw – I’m no good at canvassing either so I agree, if you’re not comfortable don’t do it. I am good at stuffing envelopes though and making encouraging comments and circulating good articles.

    315. schrodingers cat says:

      Haddington and Lammermuir by-election. 1st prefs;

      Con – 2212 (35.0%, +6)
      SNP – 1866 (29.5%, +3.5)
      Lab – 1359 (21.5%, -12.2)
      Lib Dem – 774 (12.2%, +5)
      UKIP – 108 (1.7%, +1.7)

      looks like labour support in scotland is collapsing

    316. jfngw says:

      @A C Bruce

      Totecters, it never hurts, I am not offended. My point was to ensure people did not vote more than once. It states this clearly on the form but not everyone always reads them. I have read numerous examples of people not using ballot forms correctly, it is as you say because every type of election in Scotland seems to use a different method.

    317. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Scottish Law Society
      And here’s one for your members who are unable to find it within themselves to support rational liberalism. Perhaps they simply need to re-connect with their former youth.

      Understanding the Negative Effects of Legal Education on Law Students: A Longitudinal Test of Self-Determination Theory

      Longitudinal studies suggest that law school has a corrosive
      effect on the well-being, values, and motivation of students, ostensibly because of its problematic institutional culture. In a 3-year study of two different law schools, the authors applied self-determination theory’s (SDT) dynamic process model of thriving to explain such findings. Students at both schools declined in psychological need satisfaction and well-being over the 3 years.

      However, student reports of greater perceived autonomy support by faculty predicted less radical declines in need satisfaction, which in turn predicted better well-being in the 3rd year and also a higher grade point average, better bar exam results, and more self determined motivation for the first job after graduation.

      Institution-level analyses showed that although students at both schools suffered, one school was perceived as more controlling than the other, predicting greater difficulties for its students. Implications for SDT and for legal education are discussed.

      Keywords: self-determination theory; well-being; legal education; bar performance; psychological needs

    318. jfngw says:


      My local branch were only really looking for canvassers, if there was some background stuff I could do then that would be fine.

      I’m a mixed bag, I vent my frustration if things don’t look to be moving forward. But I do occasionally post positive thing, or cringey assides at least (some take them seriously).

    319. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Scottish Law Society
      Ans just a smidgen more suggested homework for your members who simply can’t kick the habit of reactionary, right-wing, (white) British nationalism.

      Justice, Legitimacy, and Self-Determination:
      Moral Foundations for International Law


      Commitment to justice for all persons. It provides a probing exploration of the moral issues involved in disputes about secession, ethno?national conflict, ‘the right of self?determination of peoples’, human rights, and the legitimacy of the international legal system itself.

      The author advances vigorous criticisms of the central dogmas of international relations and international law, arguing that the international legal system should make justice, not simply peace, among states a primary goal, and rejecting the view that it is permissible for a state to conduct its foreign policies exclusively according to what is in the ‘national interest’. He also shows that the only alternatives are not rigid adherence to existing international law or lawless chaos in which the world’s one superpower pursues its own interests without constraints.

      This book not only criticizes the existing international legal order, but also offers morally defensible and practicable principles for reforming it. After a Synopsis and Introduction, which discusses the idea of a moral theory of international law, the book has four parts: I: Justice (3 chapters); II: Legitimacy (3 chapters); III: Self?Determination (2 chapters); and IV: Reform (2 chapters). The book is one of the titles in the Oxford Political Theory Series.

      Keywords: ethno?national conflict, foreign policy, human rights, international law, international legal system, international relations, justice, legitimacy, moral foundation, moral theory, national interest, reform, secession, self?determination

    320. yesindyref2 says:

      I know. Yours was a deadpan joke so I gave it a deadpan reply 🙂

    321. Clapper57 says:

      Well well well…would you believe it.

      Remember last year the People’s vote darlings coming up to Edinburgh to seek our support for another vote on the EU …well as we all predicted they ain’t no friend of ours..because…

      The @peoplesvote_uk has printed millions of leaflets urging people to vote for People’s Vote parties and included @UKLabour in that description, but NOT @theSNP or @Plaid_Cymru…..I mean UK Labour….hello …have I missed something…

      On the leaflet in bold are the UK Labour- Lib Dems- Greens- and Change UK….stating vote for one of these parties and wipe the smile of Farage’s face….REALLY…that is the only choices they think we have in UKOK….is this one of those …except for viewers in Scotland leaflets…..SNP please take note…await with bated breath the Scottish versions…am sure they are being produced too…..or perhaps they think we , in Scotland, already have our own solution.

      See this is the thanks Nicola gets for talking at their London rally….one way traffic….why am I NOT surprised that they have betrayed her and us….what a bunch of you know what’s.

    322. mr thms says:

      With regard to earlier posts on the subject of freight.

      Air, road and shipping is mentioned.


      “Scottish rail freight is set to benefit from up to £25 million of ring-fenced funds to help strengthen the industry over the next five years.”

      With regard to the election for the parliament of the EU I will be voting SNP.

      I can see Scotland rejoining the EU under Article 50 part 5 during the ‘transitional arrangement’

    323. schrodingers cat says:

      corbyn in talks as he doesnt want to be seen to be responsible for blocking brexit

      corbyn wont agree to anything and be seen to be facilitating a tory brexit

      treeza warns that these talks are time limited

      corbyn cant piss in the pot or get off either.

      end game very very soon

    324. A C Bruce says:

      jfngw @ 12.50.

      Re: not everyone knowing how to use voting forms.

      At the last council elections, I was walking out of the school, after voting, and a woman stopped me and asked me how to fill in the voting form. I told her that she should number the candidates according to her preference and directed her to the officials at the desk for further help.

      I was shocked because she was a middle aged lady and she didn’t know how to vote. I wondered if she had never voted before. Maybe the different, more complicated systems we have now puts some folk off voting. FPTP was simple but so many people remained unrepresented in parliament.

    325. A C Bruce says:

      mr thms @ 1.06.

      Thanks for that information.

      The worst thing that ever happened re: transport in the UK was the short-sightedness of the Beeching railway cuts. It’s quite shocking to look at a map of the present railway network and compare it to before the cuts. Line after line disappeared.

    326. yesindyref2 says:

      Re the voting thing, any “spoiled” paper is passed on for further inspection, and if the intention of the voter is clear, the vote does count.

      I’d guess if people did a 1, 2 for say the SNP and Greens, it would be taken as a single vote for the SNP as the intention is completely clear and unambiguous.

      But yeah, for the EU EP election just put an X against the SNP 🙂

    327. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is why I think Tory fan-boy, David Torrance, is a dick, with his degree in psychology and doctorate in philosophy and shit. Honestly, I’m glad I wasn’t awarded honors, as British academia appears to produce some right dodgy wanks.

      A Self-Determination Theory Approach to Psychotherapy:
      The Motivational Basis for Effective Change

      The application of self-determination theory (SDT) to psychotherapy is particularly relevant because a central task of therapy is to support the client to autonomously explore, identify, initiate, and sustain a process of change. In this article, the authors discuss the experimental work, field studies, and clinical trials representing the application of SDT to the domain of psychotherapy.

      Evidence supports the importance of client autonomy for the attainment and maintenance of treatment outcomes. In addition, intervention studies suggest that therapist autonomy support enhances the likelihood that treatment gains
      will be achieved and maintained. The authors discuss some of the processes involved in enhancing autonomy, including the role of awareness, the importance of exploring and challenging introjects and external regulations, attention to need-related goal contents, and therapist attitudes required for a therapy approach that is process- rather than outcome-focused.

      Keywords: psychotherapy, self-determination theory, motivation, autonomy

    328. HandandShrimp says:

      Given the SNP were recognised in a recent poll as the most pro Remain party one can only assume that the People’s Vote crowd don’t know what they are talking about or are being guided by Jim Murphy.

    329. Capella says:

      Just received my ballot papers along with a homily from Willie Rennie “just make it stop”. Let’s stop the division and damage. Good luck with that Willie. You had your opportunity in the coalition. Blew it.

      As others have said, you just put your cross in the one box – the SNP box.

    330. schrodingers cat says:

      lots of blood letting on social media this past week.

      I think jealousy is the root of much, re stu, he uses some ripe langauge sometimes but then again so does janey godley. I dont see the abuse that people claim he indulges it, just the forensic take down of unionists.

      its sad, many of the people he defended, eg khaleesi etc, now turn on him. it must be tiring

      re craig murray
      I dont buy into the conspiracy side of his arguments about the snp being infiltrated with mi5 agents etc, not impossble i’d admit, but seeing shadowy figures in the dark could be a trick of the light but his own life experience has schooled him to be wary.

      I think that not being selected as an snp candidate has coloured his world view. btw, I think that craig, like stu, is much more useful to the indy movement being outside of the snp, politicians need to be more guarded but sometimes what needs to be said needs to be said by someone, eg kezia is a liar etc. and thats why we need both craig and stu.

      we are currently re aligning in the yes movement. the snp is turning to fill on indy and we will also need to re align.

      no more different hats for different occasions, if you are yes and also an snp member, wear both badges
      if you are snp and also an yes supporter, wear both badges

      time to stop hiding in the shadows

    331. starlaw says:

      Jeff says 12; 21

      I have posted about this before but never considered Cockenzie I was looking further south. You are right! I also proposed we ask for EU help to build a motorway link between this port and Stranraer opening up the Dumfries and Galloway regions to commerce.

    332. cassandra says:


      You are doing a decent job defending the various schisms and contradictions going on at the present time in the SNP.

      I would take issue with your comment about TAS @ 12.45 though. To compare her to Angus Robertson on the basis of them both losing their seats is somewhat disingenuous.

      He is regarded by some as SNP royalty having joined at age 15, she was always treated with suspicion having changed parties.

      Also, crucially, he is ex BBC. She has gone rogue with Salmond on RT which has been condemned by Stewart McDonald, one of the 3 amigos.

      Out of curiosity, how would you feel if the SNP hierarchy said that supporting Wings was incompatible with being a member?

      I ask because it has been brought to my attention that the SNP hierarchy will be examining the online activities of those who identify as members of the SNP and appear to be vocal supporters of those with ‘undesirable views’. As they have now decided to own the problem of on line nastiness, they are keen to be seen to rooting out the problem. There is support from the vocal TRA element within the SNP youth wing.

      Does anyone think that is a reasonable stance, in any way whatsoever?

    333. Welsh Sion says:

      Clapper 57 @ 1.05 pm.

      Quite right. See their website. 64 forthcoming ‘local’ campaign events listed – ALL in England.

      I notice there is also a new Gina Millar vehicle promoting ‘tactical voting’ at the Euro elections. According to their own figures, 3 SNP MEPs are projected under ‘normal’ rules, and 3 if you vote tactically (!) (For Plaid Cymru, it’s projected 0, but tactically we can expected 1. Adam must be delighted. 1 PC MEP = no change in Cymru.)

    334. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dundee has/had a deep-water, roll-on-roll-off facility, which Forth Ports felt surplus to requirements, I think.

    335. schrodingers cat says:

      @Welsh Sion

      good luck with the yescymru auob march in cardiff tomorrow

      fellow wingers on twitter, please help get out their message

      i believe the griffin is beginning to roar

    336. starlaw says:

      Transport Ive been reading posts about Prestwick and Air freight Scotland, don’t forget we also have a long runway at Leuchars and Lossiemouth which an independent Scotland could use.

    337. Footsoldier says:

      Tories retain Haddington and Lammermuir constituency of East Lothian Council.

      Con – 2212 (35.0%, +6)
      SNP – 1866 (29.5%, +3.5)
      Lab – 1359 (21.5%, -12.2)
      Lib Dem – 774 (12.2%, +5)
      UKIP – 108 (1.7%, +1.7)

    338. A C Bruce says:

      I don’t swear much myself but don’t object to Stuart’s ripe language. He’s a blunt, plain speaker who doesn’t dress up what he writes. It used to be thought of as a positive characteristic but everything is so p.c., these days.

      You know where you are with people like that. Better that than those who smile and say what they think you want to hear who then stab* you in the back at the first opportunity.

      *metaphorically speaking, of course.

    339. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi CameronBB.

      You can see it’s still there. Zoom out to get your bearings but watch and no’ trip over the rigs!

    340. Footsoldier says:

      Jeff @ 12:21

      It is a very important point you make Jeff but these sort of things tend not to be of much interest on here where arguong about minutiae is much preferred.

    341. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brian Doonthetoon
      Wow, glad I don’t suffer vertigo. 😉

    342. Capella says:

      @ cassandra – I don’t believe in SNP royalty. There are good effective politicians and there are not so good IMO. I focus on the good because that way lies independence.

      Out of curiosity, how would you feel if the SNP hierarchy said that supporting Wings was incompatible with being a member?

      I would resign. I can still vote for independence and vote for the SNP without being a member. But I can’t keep myself informed if I don’t read WoS. Nobody has the right to tell me what to read. Kezia Dugdale tried to make the SNP ban the reading of Wings and failed. Kezia Dugdale is a failed politician.

      The SNP isn’t a cult. It’s the most effective political party in the UK.

    343. Welsh Sion says:

      Thank you, cat @ 1.51 pm.

      I actually married into the Griffin family – literally! But therein lies another story and one involving an ex-Foreign Secretary, too …

      PS I don’t think we usually refer to our red fire-breathing creature as a griffin. It’s rather a draig/dragon.

    344. robbo says:

      All these posts about freight import/export etc.

      Can you imagine Michael Gove ? He would have an apoplexy if Scot Gov started putting millions into sea/rail/airfreight infrastructure.Now that would be fun to watch.Those peskie separatists he would say-how dare they steal our exports allocated to England in GERS .

      Lets get it started ScotGov – get those ports sorted now and sea and air terminals started and see the yoons squirm!!

      Our exports would triple

      Our logistics companies would save a fortune on road freight going south- think of fuel costs-road tax-vehicle wear and tear- freight costs going via English ports. Also save on carbon footprint and reduce emissions in line with current policy.

    345. A C Bruce says:

      robbo @ 2.19

      Gove would be spitting tacks. I would pay to see that sight. He was nearly apoplectic at the 20p deposit and return scheme which he connected to independence! I’m still trying to figure out the connection; I guess it’s just another example of Scotland going it’s own way.

    346. mr thms says:

      #A C Bruce @ 1:21pm

      You are welcome.

      The Scottish Government website’s News section is a great source of information.

    347. rob says:

      SNP can’t manage a maildrop at the moment, so running the country looks a long way off.

    348. schrodingers cat says:

      @Welsh Sion

      My gran was a griffin from blaenau ffestiniog, i visited there a few times, nice place, i think, low lying clouds made it difficult to see 🙂

      The Welsh Griffin comes from a given name Gruffydd, which is a composition of the words Griff, which meant dragon, and udd, which meant Lord.

      the name probably came from heraldry, but re draig/dragon, all languages change through time, welsh is no exception

    349. boris says:

      Sandy Brindley, from Rape Crisis Scotland, who has been representing the woman, slammed the Tories’ handling of the complaint. She said:

      “This is why women are reluctant to come forward with sexual harassment complaints. In our view the Scottish Conservatives need to urgently change their approach to investigating sexual harassment complaints. This is not about party politics, it’s about ensuring that anyone experiencing sexual harassment feels able to come forward and expect fair treatment if they do.”

      Campaign groups warned that the Conservatives’ procedure was “inappropriate” and will deter women coming forward with harassment claims.

    350. misteralz says:

      Jeff at 1221, you’re forgetting Den Helder, Groeningen, Emden, Hamburg, Kiel, Esbjerg, Oslo, Stavanger, and so on and so on… But yes, Scotland is a freak of the North Sea coast for its utter lack of big ports!

    351. Capella says:

      Stu’s posted a link with access to the Tasmina article in The National. Worth a read IMO:

    352. Robert Peffers says:

      @A C Bruce says: 10 May, 2019 at 11:25 am:

      ” … But thanks for making it simple for little ole me. Maybe I’m more imaginative than you. To me, independence means doing it our way not continuing to depend on England.”

      O.K. I said I was going back to lurking and I am, but I cannot let that one go by without just showing how imaginative you really are – and how forgetful.

      The Chunnel may terminate on the British side of the Channel but it doesn’t belong exclusively to the Kingdom of England alone.

      It was built with United Kingdom taxpayer’s money and thus belongs partly to the Kingdom of Scotland. As does all the extra infrastructure necessary for the traffic volume that uses the Chunnel.

      Which raises the little question that, after the United Kingdom disunites, if England wants to preclude Scots from use of what they are legally part owners of Will Westminster choose to prevent Scottish access or choose to buy out Scotland’s share of the United Kingdom assets that Scots have paid for?

      Now I’m away back to lurking. BTW: Certain Wingers are doing a great job of showing up the FM/SG/SNP enemies for what they really are.

    353. A C Bruce says:

      RP @ 2.53

      They can buy out Scotland’s share of the immovable Chunnel.

      If France stops it up at the French end after Brexit – and who’d blame them if they did, it must be tempting – it would be a white elephant anyway.?

    354. A C Bruce says:

      The question mark was meant to be a winking smiley.

    355. Robert Peffers says:

      OT/But perhaps of interest to such as Yesindyref2.

      This reference was posted upthread by Capella. Some folk just do not pay attention and thus jump to wrong conclusions.

      Jings! I can’t even get peace to lurk.

    356. yesindyref2 says:

      While not neccessarily binding as it’s not signed / ratified by the UK, this is still used for a guideline:


      Article 11 Passing Of State Property Without Compensation
      Subject to the provisions of the articles in the present Part and unless otherwise agreed by the States concerned or decided by an appropriate international body, the passing of State property of the predecessor State to the successor State shall take place without compensation.


      Article 14 Transfer Of Part Of The Territory Of A State
      1. When part of the territory of a State is transferred by that State to another State, the passing of State property of the predecessor State to the successor State is to be settled by agreement between them.
      2. In the absence of such an agreement:
      (a) immovable State property of the predecessor State situated in the territory to which the succession of States relates shall pass to the successor State;
      (b) movable State property of the predecessor State connected with the activity of the predecessor State in respect of the territory to which the succession of States relates shall pass to the successor State.

      but note also:

      Article 15 Newly Independent State
      1. When the successor State is a newly independent State:
      (a) immovable State property of the predecessor State situated in the territory to which the succession of States relates shall pass to the successor State;
      (b) immovable property, having belonged to the territory to which the succession of States relates, situated outside it and having become State property of the predecessor State during the period of dependence, shall pass to the successor State;
      (c) immovable State property of the predecessor State other than that mentioned in subparagraph (b) and situated outside the territory to which the succession of States relates, to the creation of which the dependent territory has contributed, shall pass to the successor State in proportion to the contribution of the dependent territory;
      (d) movable State property of the predecessor State connected with the activity of the predecessor State in respect of the territory to which the succession of States relates shall pass to the successor State;
      (e) movable property, having belonged to the territory to which the succession of States relates and having become State property of the predecessor State during the period of dependence, shall pass to the successor State;
      (f) movable State property of the predecessor State, other than the property mentioned in subparagraphs (d) and (e), to the creation of which the dependent territory has contributed, shall pass to the successor State in proportion to the contribution of the dependent territory.

      So that’s pretty clear I think, regards the Channel Tunnel which is immovable!

    357. yesindyref2 says:

      Note carefully too, that’s about property not debt, the two are dealt with separately.

    358. yesindyref2 says:

      But perhaps of interest to such as Yesindyref2

      Already saw it, but note the date – May 1. The march for those of us 102,311 on it, was May 4th, the “cybernat” Herald article on May 5th, and the stupid indefensible endorsements from the stupid trio including the stupid Alyn Smith, made without any regard for the election chances of Margaret Ferrier, 4th on the SNP list of EP candidates, were also on May 5th.

      May 4th and May 5th are AFTER May 1st in the calendar.

      This may be of interest to such as Robert Peffers:

    359. Moonlight says:

      Remember TIR. “Transports Internationaux Routiers” That should take care of transit through a non EU England.

      Dundee has a huge wharf on the Tay. This has road and rail connectivity. To my mind an excellent container port. Simple loading-unloading equipment could be procured quickly, with more sophisticated equipment to follow. It would require the SG to direct Forth Ports, no doubt with a suitable bung. Any doubt, just nationalise it and sort out the details later.

      As for Ro Ro, given that an England outside of the EU and smarting from the afronts given to it by Scotland could be obstructive, perhaps the EU could be persuaded to subsidise ferry charges, at least for while, for freight and traffic to and from Scotland and Ireland.

      Governments of independent sovereign nations have these powers and can and do use them.

      O/T How the EU sees the Westminster farce, surprisingly by the BBC

    360. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tell you what, as nationalist ideologies go, British nationalism is pretty crap. I mean, what sort of methodological nationalism worth it’s salt, chooses to piss off a significant cultural minority who happen to inhabit the naturally wealthy bit of the state’s territorial claim?

      The full-English Brexit highlights the need for Scots to do more to defend their human rights from English exceptionalism and Westminster’s abuse of constitutional power.

      People in control of their own health and care
      The state of involvement

    361. Abulhaq says:

      the English are fine until…then the eyes glaze, the mouth goes autopilot and the perceived poor relation gets the politico-cultural, psychological put down treatment.
      The UK ‘culture’ is 95% an ‘anal retentive’ property thing. Title to your country? Ours of course, by right of conquest old things. Ay sahib, anything else you fancy?
      England does not do ‘sharing’.
      *Try finding out who owns what, a right royal maze of deadends.

    362. Colin Alexander says:


      What role does Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh have with the SNP?

      I thought she got the boot from the role of National Women’s and Equalities Convener?

    363. Welsh Sion says:

      2.38 pm @Cat, Thank you for letting me know of your family details and appreciation of Blaenau Ffestiniog. (Not everyone does!) You will know of course that English ‘nan’ derives from (Northern) Welsh ‘nain’ – esp. as you had one from that part of the world.

      Good on explaining the origin of Gruffudd (although some claim it’s cryf ‘strong’ + ffydd ‘faith’.) Personsally, I think it could go either way.

      Anyhow, we can exchange Welsh linguistics matters maybe someday face-to-face. You will recall that I work professionally in Cymraeg (my 1st language) as the only accredited translator for CIoL in that language here in Middle England.

      I’ll tell you more about the Griffin-Johnson connection then, too! 😀

    364. crazycat says:

      @ Welsh Sion

      I’m a fan of Blaenau Ffestiniog too – I’ve been there a whole twice! I saw my first raven there (stuffed, in a museum – I now have them in my back garden) and on the second occasion went down the slate mine. That was a while ago; I should try to go back.

    365. Mac says:

      What’s the most recent poll in Scotland for Brexit? I imagine the South has shifted towards Remain, and likewise Scotland may have a bigger Remain percentage than 2:1

      Does anyone know?

    366. Capella says:

      @ Colin Alexander – you’re not often right but you’re wrong again.

      I don’t usually respond to your comments. I don’t usually read them. But since you address me personally I will advise you to go and check these matters out for yourself. It’s not hard.

    367. Colin Alexander says:

      For those who spend wasted time having digs at Craig Murray, did youse watch Craig on the Alex Salmond show?

      Craig is a man of integrity. He turned down awards from the Queen on principle as a Scottish nationalist and republican.

      He was a big shot in the Foreign Office, and could have been an even bigger shot, for the British Empire. But he went from that to poverty. Lost everything. Ruined by the Evil Empire.


      Because he spoke out against torture. Torture which the UK and USA Govts turned a blind eye to or even encouraged.

      Craig Murray is one of our greatest assets in the independence movement. He should be appreciated, not deprecated by those who claim to want Scotland’s freedom.

    368. Clapper57 says:

      @ Welsh Sion @ 1.42pm

      Well apparently they, the PV peeps, have now stated there are separate leaflets for Scotland and Wales …but STILL mentioning LABOUR…apparently Labour past the PV’s test as anti Brexit party….assuming sitting on the fence and mixed messages equate to Remain now…who knew?

      Tis little wonder we are not all basket cases with mixed messages we in Scotland and Wales receive from our southern friends und enemies….one side saying we are all UKOK….but PV peeps make distinction between nations…but Labour pro remain…once again I must say…REALLY !!!

      Have a good day

    369. Robert Peffers says:

      @CameronB Brodie says: 10 May, 2019 at 2:05 pm

      ” … Wow, glad I don’t suffer vertigo”.

      Err! ‘scus me! Vertigo is NOT fear of heights, Cameron.

      Try, “Acrophobia”, and check out what vertigo actually is.

    370. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Capella

      Wikipedia is wrong.

      Since May 2018 Stewart Hosie has been the SNP’s International Trade Spokesman.

    371. Welsh Sion says:


      Can’t say any of my colleagues or myself have received any work to translate the PV peoples’ work (nor indeed Gina Millar’s stuff) into Welsh … yet. But not holding my breath.

      – Indy supporting Remainer
      – Member of SNP and Plaid Cymru
      – Professional Trilingual Translator since 2006

    372. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Peffers
      Thank for the correction Robert. OK, I might actually have a touch of acrophobia, which leads to the symptom known as vertigo, i.e. the sensation that you, or the environment around you, is moving or spinning.

    373. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 14:53,

      Just for the record, the Chunnel was not built with taxpayer’s money as you state. One of the conditions that Thatcher insisted upon at the time the project was agreed with Mitterand was expressly that it would be wholly privately-funded. (Partly free-market dogmatism, partly a wish to avoid the UKGov being embroiled in a white elephant, if that was what transpired, I assume.)

      The public share offer was taken up enthusiasically by small investors, especially in France. (Which created an interesting situation when the concern, despite always being robustly profitable, went into financial meltdown from escalating debt repayments due to the original construction costs, but that’s another story and object lesson.)

      Currently it’s wholly owned by a publicly-quoted French company largely controlled by the creditors. I know all this for a fact, since me and the missus still own a bolt in the thing somewhere.

      None of which says anything about the appropriate shareout of government fixed assets on indy.

    374. Robert Peffers says:

      @A C Bruce says: 10 May, 2019 at 3:05 pm:

      ” … it would be a white elephant anyway.”

      Believe it or not it isn’t the only, “White Elephant”, that Scotland is part owner of as one part of the two partner United Kingdom.

      The old Royal Palace Westminster Parliament of the United Kingdom used as the home of the British parliament, was largely destroyed by fire on 16 October 1834. It was then designed and purpose rebuilt and funded by United Kingdom taxpayer’s money.

      Also the Bank of England has never belonged to the Kingdom of England. The BofE was just a private banking company that the English Kingdom Government banked with. It continued as a private company after the Treaty of Union until 1946 when it was nationalised by the United Kingdom Government and is thus as much Kingdom of Scotland owned as it is Kingdom of England owned.

      As is, of course, the Pound Sterling which was agreed by the Treaty of Union as the two kingdoms joint currency. So much for there being an rUnited Kingdom after the two kingdom’s disunite and so much for England refusing Scotland the use of the Pound or England, as the BofE, controlling both independent kingdom’s economies without any Scottish influence as we own part of the BofE.

    375. CameronB Brodie says:

      Feel as if the world is spinning around you? Does the full-English Brexit scared you because it highlighhts the lack of control you have over your life, living in Scotland? Time for some more cognitive neuropsychology?

      The ‘‘sense of agency” and its underlying cognitive and neural mechanisms


      The sense of agency is a central aspect of human self-consciousness and refers to the experience of oneself as the agent of one’s own actions. Several different cognitive theories on the sense of agency have been proposed implying divergent empirical approaches and results, especially with respect to neural correlates.

      A multifactorial and multilevel model of the sense of agency may provide the most constructive framework for integrating divergent theories and findings, meeting the complex nature of this intriguing phenomenon.

      (c) 2008 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

    376. Abulhaq says:

      Being of the generation that has never seen Question Time, TV what’s that!
      However it does seem Faridge and the state channel are having an abnormally promiscuous mediatic liaison. A new paraphilia for the literature?

    377. Mac says:

      If I recall correctly, the Government Buildings in Whitehall for example, are a major UK asset.

    378. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Welsh Sion @ 13:42:

      I notice there is also a new Gina Millar vehicle

      Yes, there was a short article about that in today’s National. Very unequivocal re Scotland, vote SNP. No ifs-or-buts. (Likewise for Wales, of course.)

      That’s a very welcome intervention. I have a suspicion that previously their financial support went to the FibDems, some of which leaked into Scotland in 2017 for the UKGE and was used to print that vast surfeit of leaflets attacking the SNP. An own goal from Gina Miller’s POV, I should think.

      This latest intervention, the article and others like it should be very helpful in unlocking support from previous “soft-noes”. Pass the info around. As we know, once people have overcome the initial unfamiliarity barrier, they usually don’t look back.

    379. Ian Foulds says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      10 May, 2019 at 4:26 pm
      Robert Peffers
      Thank for the correction

      Thanks chaps.

      Every day is a school day.


    380. jfngw says:

      Anyone that doesn’t want Brexit should not even consider the LibDem’s in Scotland. Their pro EU credentials are conditional, they only support staying in the EU if the UK stays, otherwise they are as Brexit as Nigel Farage.

    381. Gary says:

      ALL of the ‘new powers’ granted were, in essence, Westminster giving us the rope with which to hang ourselves.

      Nothing was given completely, we were being sold a pup, a con. These measures were to convince the unwary and unthinking that REAL power was being granted when it was not.

      Scotland already spends vast amounts offsetting the adverse affects of Westminster Policy. And even a Labour Government, as we know from past bitter experience, will REFUSE to overturn even the most cruel of Tory punitive policies in Scotland or elsewhere in the UK.

      People would be angry if they knew. But Westminster can rely on our press to keep this under wraps or worse, report it as an ‘SNP Bad’ story…

    382. Ken500 says:

      The Channel tunnel was totally under estimated by £Billions. £Billions over budget. Just like HS2 and Hinkley Point. A total waste of taxpayers money. While people are being starved to death. Scotland has to pay for it. Cameron’s stout in the trough once again. The British Chinese consortium of hedge fund troughers wasting public money like there is no tomorrow. The Tory slush fund.

      Cameron just bought a £8,000 hot tub for the £Million second home. People are dying because of illegal austerity. Cameron facilitated the appalling EU Ref. The lies and deceit. The lying VOW. The purring Tory Queen. Wasting taxpayers money like there is no tomorrow. Interfering in Gov matters. Being paid for it when the Tory Royals are supposed to be impartial. Killing off their own citizens.

      £Billions of Scottish revenues secretly and illegally taken to fund London S/E. ‘This must be kept secret’, written by Thatcher on the Gov documents. One of her ministers resigned because of it. Complete and utter fraud and embezzlement.

      The Cross rail project £Billions. Now totally over budget.

      CCS now abandoned in Scotland by the Tories and their sychophants. Losing Scotland revenues. EU countries are benefitting, Promised £Billion CCS project in Peterhead reneged on by the Tories. Longannet £Billion CCS project reneged upon by the Tories. The Tories are lying psycho bastards.

    383. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      cassandra @ 13:40,

      I had previously given you some credit for standing up for free discourse on here, but after this latest snide offering I can see that you have nothing positive to offer, and are merely cynically trying to exploit any differences that may present themselves.

      What a pity. Just another miserable negative Coco collaborator. Can’t you find something more productive to do with your life…?

    384. Robert Peffers says:

      @CameronB Brodie says:10 May, 2019 at 4:26 pm:

      ” … OK, I might actually have a touch of acrophobia, which leads to the symptom known as vertigo.

      Err! No. You have it the wrong way round. If you suffer Vertigo, (and believe me I know), it may lead to you having a fear of heights, acrophobia.

      Vertigo is a feeling of actually physically spinning when you are not spinning.

      Thing is vertigo attacks are not a permanent condition, in the sense that they are not ever present but usually suddenly just begin for no apparent reason. Which is the reason sufferers of vertigo then go on to have a fear of heights. The vertigo causes a sufferer to lose balance and then to fall.

      Hitchcock has a lot to answer for, but to be fair, the film does indeed explain the correct condition in the first few minutes but most folks don’t seem to pick-up on the explanation.

      Oh! And another we factoid, looking down from even a modest height can trigger vertigo and thus lead to acrophobia.

      It’s amazing what alert readers can learn on Wings.


    385. Abulhaq says:

      The conventional wisdom goes when the Scots are gone, they’re gone. Done, dusted, so long was nice to know you, or not.
      However, after 300 hundred miserable years of bondage there has been a build up of shared assets to which the Scots have generously contributed, at home ie England and abroad.
      Think, for example, of all the trappings spawned by imperial government.
      The Brit embassy in Paris is rather nice or the one in Washington and then there are all those neat overseas territories.
      When the time comes, we must demand our pound of flesh. No squeamishness now.

    386. Ken500 says:

      Misogyny. Praising Craig Murray but criticising Tasmina, Tasmina makes a great contribution to Alex’s RT show and the Independence Movement getting people on side..

    387. CameronB Brodie says:

      Talking about stuff what we own. 🙂

      Cognitive neuroscience of ownership and agency

    388. galamcennalath says:

      jfngw says:

      LibDems in Scotland … only support staying in the EU if the UK stays, otherwise they are as Brexit as Nigel Farage.

      Yes, definitely. They would undoubtedly prefer to stay with the UK rather than stay in the EU with an iScotland.

      For all BritNats the UK Union is their primary concern. It’s some EnglishNats who would accept the UK breaking up if it meant England gets BREngExit.

      Tories, Labour, and LibDems cannot be trusted to put Scotland first especially concerning Brexit. Any Scot who opposes Brexit and votes LibDem (or even Lab) in the belief that’s a vote against Brexit is away with the fairies.

    389. Ken500 says:

      The LibDems covered up child abuse. Cable knew. LibDem liars. A disgrace.

    390. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is leading-edge cognitive neuropsychology and stuff, fill your boots. 🙂

      The Senses of Agency and Ownership: A Review

    391. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 10 May, 2019 at 4:38 pm:

      ” … Just for the record, the Chunnel was not built with taxpayer’s money as you state.”

      Cheers for that correction, Robert, now that you have done so I do have a vague recollection of reading that info somewhere a long time ago. I don’t have many memory lapses but that certainly is one of them. Thank you again.

    392. Ken500 says:

      Farague is a crook. He should have been put in jail years ago. For gerrymandering and covering up expenses. Not submitting accounts etc. Embezzling £Millions of public money to illegally fund a political Party. A total misuse of public funds. The Tory anti EU grandees hsve protected him for years. Along with the Hedge Funds. Farague makes money for them and the corrupt pollsters by illegally manipulating elections results. A total lying fraud. Misrepresenting the EU for years but embezzling public monies from the EU. A total charlatan.

    393. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I’m just ruminating on yesterday’s front page of The National, which features the Little Corporal’s frowning phizog together with a litany of her monomaniacal utterances over indy, and the image I can’t get out of my head is of a bag lady mumbling obsessively outside the entrance of Bute House, and through whose august portals, despite her obsession, she will never pass.

      And I’m thinking how wise it was for Nicola to let that “no-no-no to indy2” phase dissipate. In the context of the EU elections, the Tory monomania is a busted flush. Not least given The Great Leader’s former enthusiastic support for Remain. Oh, sweet karma! Even Brian Taylor is finding it all too hard to swallow and gloss over.

      Maybe she would have been wiser to put vaulting ambition aside for a while, stay on maternity leave until Brexit is done-and-dusted, and let somebody else take all the blame. Enjoyed the company of her kid in his/her best young years.

    394. CameronB Brodie says:

      I appreciate that folk might not see the relevance of cognitive neuropsychology, but that’s what the folk in lab-coats use to study human AGENCY. The full-English Brexit takes a big smelly dump on what little AGENCY Westminster affords to England’s equal partner in yoonyawn, i.e. Scotland. This is an unhealthy state of affairs, frankly.

      New frontiers in the neuroscience of the sense of agency


      The sense that I am the author of my own actions, including the ability to distinguish my own from other people’s actions, is a fundamental building block of our sense of self, on the one hand, and successful social interactions, on the other. Using cognitive neuroscience techniques, researchers have attempted to elucidate the functional basis of this intriguing phenomenon, also trying to explain pathological abnormalities of action awareness in certain psychiatric and neurological disturbances.

      Recent conceptual, technological, and methodological advances suggest several interesting and necessary new leads for future research on the neuroscience of agency. Here I will describe new frontiers for the field such as the need for novel and multifactorial paradigms, anatomically plausible network models for the sense of agency, investigations of the temporal dynamics during agentic processing and ecologically valid virtual reality (VR) applications.

      Keywords: sense of agency, connectivity, temporal dynamics, virtual reality

    395. Robert Louis says:

      Yesindyref2 at 329pm,

      If I recall correctly, the Vienna convention was cited as reason for UK to be free of the EU, by no less than the Tory attorney general, in the HoC just a few months ago.

      Clearly, of course whilst hte Vienna convention must be observed for England, when it comes to Scotland, they will ikely shout that they haven’t signed it.

      Such is English exceptionalism.

    396. CameronB Brodie says:

      Yep, a year is a long time in the cognitive sciences. I remember reading the groundwork to this a quarter of a century ago.

      The myth of cognitive agency: subpersonal thinking as a cyclically recurring loss of mental autonomy

    397. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jeff says: 10 May, 2019 at 12:21 pm:

      ” … Why rely on south of the border ferry links only? Should there not be plans being made right now for a massive port on the site of the now demolished Cockenzie power station in East Lothian, to facilitate freight, ferry and cruise ship access.”

      Not really. There were already plans drawn up some time ago for a much better and probably much cheaper container type facility at Rosyth.

      Rosyth is a fairly deep water port. It was able to accommodate the RN’s giant aircraft carriers after all. If anyone knows Rosyth Dockyard they will know what I’m talking about here. To the east of the dockyard proper there was the old oil storage tanks area. A large area with a great many oil storage tanks that, as the yard was now run down as a naval base, such an area was no longer needed.

      It was, though, adjacent to the rail link that served the Dockyard and was accessible by road also. It was also already served by electricity and other services and the normal port services of the yard are more than adequate for example cruise ships.

    398. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 17:28,

      You’re welcome RP. I find that memory improves wonderfully whenever you’ve been burned! =laugh=

      Re the discussion, the unique situation of Getlink (as it is now called) does raise the possibility of an iScotland government buying access to the fixed link for our goods traffic, if it were ever thought necessary.

      (I’m reminded in that regard of the recent behind-the-counter purchase by the Dutch government of additional shares in the KLM-Air France consortium after the largely-French management started mooting a reduction of services to Amsterdam. The Continentals still take a very strategic view of transport and energy assets, and rightly so.)

    399. CameronB Brodie says:

      I know I keep banging on about human AGENCY, but who will if I don’t?

      The relation between the sense of agency and the experience
      of flow


      This article investigates the relation between people’s feelings of agency and their feelings of flow. In the dominant model describing how people are able to assess their own agency-the comparator model of agency-when the person’s intentions match perfectly to what happens, the discrepancy between intention and outcome is zero, and the person is thought to interpret this lack of discrepancy as being in control.

      The lack of perceived push back from the external world seems remarkably similar to the state that has been described as a state of flow. However, when we used a computer game paradigm to investigate the relation between people’s feelings of agency and their feelings of flow, we found a dissociation between these two states. Although these two states may, in some ways, seem to be similar, our data indicate that they are governed by different principles and phenomenology. (c) 2016 Published by Elsevier Inc.

    400. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      “Coco” ?

      Go tell Angus Robertson and the rest that that’s how you talk about people online. Ask them to support you like you support them. See how far you get.

    401. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jeff says: 10 May, 2019 at 12:21 pm:

      ” … Why rely on south of the border ferry links only? Should there not be plans being made right now for a massive port on the site of the now demolished Cockenzie power station in East Lothian, to facilitate freight, ferry and cruise ship access.”

      By the way, Jeff, what is wrong with Grangemouth?

      And I quote:-

      Blockquote“Grangemouth, Scotland’s largest container port, opened on May 7 1966 with the Sea-land freight service launching the first weekly transatlantic container shipping route between Europe and the United States”

    402. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 17:57, etc., etc.,

      The real question, Cam, is who on here besides you cares? And whether any of it takes us even one millimetre closer to independence? Seriously.


    403. Lenny Hartley says:

      I see A Smith tweeted not to trust anything on RT on that Link that Auld Bob gave above, no mention of the BBC then Alyn ?
      Saw this today about sums up Smith and co

    404. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Colin Alexander @ 17:58,

      You’re wasting your time, Iago. Go find something more productive to do with our life. It’s precious.

    405. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      I thought you’re a scientist Robert, not got an enqueuing mind? I’m following a scientific educational program geared towards the de-colonisation of the society. Shall I tell the Royal Town Planning Association that they don’t have a clue about stimulating ethical democratic participation, because Robert Sutherland doesn’t see the relevance of my posts?

    406. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 18:07,

      That should be “your life”. But in an odd way it also works as it is.

    407. schrodingers cat says:

      i managed to avoid all of the ructions between yessers this week, it has to be the biggest flounce i’ve ever seen. I think i am mellowing a tad in my old age and i am much less confrontational than I used to be. wings nights out etc were difficult cos i could never remember if i had already insulted the people i was speaking too.

      btw coco, did I forget to tell you to fukc off today ? 🙂

    408. CameronB Brodie says:

      This stuff may appear to be me showing-off but I’m actually trying to develop Scotland’s ability to think it’s way to freedom.

      Our illusory sense of agency has a deeply important social purpose

      Chris Frith is emeritus professor of neuropsychology at the Wellcome Trust Centre for Neuroimaging at University College London. He is interested in the relationship between the mind and the brain, studies of perception, belief and will. His latest book is The Cognitive Neuropsychology of Schizophrenia (2015). Both he and Uta Frith are Fellows of the Royal Society, the British Academy, and the Academy of Medical Sciences.

    409. Clapper57 says:

      I see Monica Lennon and Murdo Fraser highlighting error in SNP mailing breaching data protection…

      However let’s put this into perspective …serious it may be but against Windrush Scandal and Iraq fake war…well perhaps they should both step back and remember…those who live in glass houses should not throw stones…but I doubt either will relate to this as they are part of the collective ‘Do as I say not as I do’ party formerly know as Better Together UKOK.

      Bearing in mind Windrush and Iraq fake war are just two massive shit shows that can be attributed to their respective parties and most certainly do not represent an exhaustive #YoonPartyBad list for either party.

    410. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 18:17,


      Liz g solved that problem a wee while back by fining me a couple of drinks at the next get-together. And I generally agree with her about things and wasn’t anywhere near full throttle! (Honest.) And CamB is a true gent and didn’t give me a poke in the eye at the last one. =grin=

    411. Dr Jim says:

      BBC Scotland accused of embezzeling £332 million from the Scottish licence payer and using it for their own purposes

      Does that even it up any

    412. Robert Peffers says:

      Right on topic – Oh! Yes it is!

      Look folks, I’ve posted this before on this thread and I cut & pasted it from a Capella comment on this thread.

      It shows that this whole storm in a teacup about the apparent Alyn Smyth and the other two supposedly getting at Wings and such like is utter mince wrapped up in SMSM newssheets:-

      Go read his twitter thread as it explains the whole matter.

    413. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      No promises about the next one like. 😉

    414. Mac says:


      I doubt anyone will disagree with me, that Scottish Independence supporters come in all shapes and sizes; but like any radical change, independence has a greater tendency to attract the visionaries, the eccentrics, the mavericks, the passionate, the dreamers, the idealists, rather than ordinary, habitual, settled, stable and conservative people. Think of the CyberNats as ‘Early Adopters’.

      So of course, to the established order, many of us are ‘weird’ or ‘fanatical’. We are not content with today. We see the possibilities of tomorrow. We seek a new order. And this makes many uncomfortable. Especially as we generate a Zeitgeist that has a hunger for ‘truth and change’.

      The SNP need this Zeitgeist like the battlefield needs the roar. They need the energy that can be felt by the people. We are to independence as the bagpipes are to the charge. Elections are not won on facts alone. Independence will not be won on facts alone. Facts are not sacred in the MSM, as we all have come to learn.

      However, the SNP need to demonstrate that they are a political force to be reckoned with. And they only way they can do that is to use emotional intelligence. To engage positively. To act responsibly. To listen. To try to bridge. To share ideas and to be honest, open, logical and respectful.

      If this means they have to distance themselves a little from the day-to-day arguments on the street (read online) this is fine. The SNP have a difficult job to do. They need to keep the respect of our neighbours in the EU. And they need to ascend above the sad sneers and jeers of derision of their more powerful enemies in Westminster.

      In fact, the SNP adopting exemplary behaviour, is a necessity and a ‘brand advantage’.
      Firstly, we all know that the slightest mistake or excuse the SNP give them, the Unionists are blowing out of proportion and spinning it.

      Secondly, Scotland is different. Leave aside the global Scottish Brand and consider for the moment the brand that is being built around ‘inclusive politics’, ‘fairness’ and ‘balance’. People have ‘re-engaged’ in Scotland. They want to participate in repairing their communities and taking civic responsibility.

      Contrast the SNP civility and tolerance, with the populist, xenophobic, right-wing politics that continues to emerge all over the civilised world, including the South. Normal people despise and fear these extreme right-wing ideologies.

      And we should give no excuse for anyone to compare Scottish Independence to nationalism. They do try to use this label of course, but it’s up to us to ensure that our angry or careless words cannot be interpreted as anything more than passion for change and self -determination.

      There are many politicians in the UK who are dysfunctional. Politics also attracts some ‘weirdos’. And a dysfunctional personality has no place, representing others, leading and influencing important potentially divisive issues.

      Yes, that’s harsh.

      So best I list the values of a great politician would look like and ‘if the cap fits’! (Honesty and integrity, calm, thoughtful, listening, caring, supporting, transparent, balanced, centred, confident, bright, emotionally intelligent, humorous, able to communicate and credible). Yes, I repeat, harsh. But how do you think Westminster got to the mess it is in today?

      There has been some recent debate regarding the possibility and plausibility of undercover agents operating online, as SNP members, and in some of the YES organisations. This should be in no doubt in anyone’s mind. Perhaps you can recall the number of times undercover officers were uncovered in such groups as ‘Reclaim the Streets’ and instances where undercover officers fomented issues by inciting the riots themselves.

      The aim of these paid trolls is to anger and destabilise. So, ignore them. It’s the most effective weapon against false flags and plants. Focus on retelling the positives. And debate only with the reasonable, rational and the intelligent. Once you get a sign that they are ‘cuckoo’, ignore, block and move on.

      The online behaviours are different from five years ago, where it was important to win an argument in case there were undecideds listening. Now it’s about planting alternative ideas and opinions. And leaving them to germinate.

      We should never underestimate the power of marching, blogging or canvassing. All have their place in change. You cannot cage ideas.

      However, none of us are beyond criticism. Including the SNP. Constructive criticism will keep the Indy movement healthy. Destructive criticism is another subject.

      My only beef with the SNP is that they play ‘Westminster rules’. They should always be respectful, but they need to challenge the rules that favour the old order. For example, it should be made clear at every opportunity that Westminster is morally wrong to drag Scotland out of the EU and that Scotland is sovereign. Legal arguments should be advanced and promoted, until it is understood by every intelligent person that there is credence in this position.

      We have been fighting as junior partner, for too long. We seem to have forgotten that we are in a Union. And Westminster needs reminding again and again.

      There are a number of changes happening in the South. Their own Zeitgeist is shifting. And Brexit has been the main trigger for these:
      1. There is a growing intolerance for discriminatory or threatening online behaviour.
      2. There is an increasing feeling that Westminster is not fit for purpose, UK is unfairly London Centric, and the duopoly system of Labour / Tory is broken.
      3. English federalism is beginning to be attractive.
      4. Brexit is a huge mistake. But worse, the UK is divided forever. Brexit has destroyed the United Kingdom. It simply hasn’t been recognised yet.

      So, major change is coming. We will end up out of the EU. But the UK will never return to any semblance of normality without a major remake of the political arena and a decent constitution.

      We can only hope that Scotland show the way to recovery as an independent, forward looking country, that didn’t allow or encourage populism to win votes.

    415. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      I mostly disagree with Robin McAlpine, but he hit the spot on that one.

    416. CameronB Brodie says:

      Another cracking post Mac.

      The Psychology of Trolling Explains Millennial Outrage

    417. Bob Mack says:


      Thanks for that Mac. Much to think about in that posting.

    418. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindy2ref re Robin McCalpine’s blog post, yup me too, not much I agree with him but that one nailed it.

    419. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Mac @ 18:51,

      A fine and very thoughtful posting. Covers the bases well.

      I just wish that the SNP politicals seemed to be more au fait with what’s happening online beyond the snake pit that is Twitter. They give the impression at least of being surprisingly unaware of the very positive contribution in general that sites like this actually make.

    420. Clapper57 says:

      @ Mac @ 6.51pm

      Great post Mac.

    421. Lanarkist says:

      Man and Boy 11.10am
      Playing catch up!

      Beautiful, really powerful, thank you!

    422. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi CameronB Brodie at 4:26 pm.

      You typed,

      “Robert Peffers
      Thank for the correction Robert. OK, I might actually have a touch of acrophobia, which leads to the symptom known as vertigo, i.e. the sensation that you, or the environment around you, is moving or spinning.

      I used to be fine with heights. In fact, back in the 80s, when was in my 30s, I applied for a job, based in Forfar but administered by the Scottish Office, looking after TV and radio transmission masts, which can be up to 1,200 feet high.

      I was selected for interview in Edinburgh but didn’t get the job. The idea of having to climb a 1,200 feet ladder didn’t bother me – at that time.

      However, in the past decade or so, I have found that observing from heights makes me uncomfortable. An example: I now work in the Jaquie Wood Cancer Centre at Ninewells Hospital. It’s a 5 story building, running from Level 5 to Level 9.

      Where my discomfort stems from is that there is a stairwell at either end of the building. Now, it would be fine if the bottom of the windows were at waist height but the windows extend from floor to ceiling.

      So, when you looking out of a window on Level 8 or 9, you are seeing the ground below. I’ve stopped looking down as I pass these windows. I don’t know if “dizziness” covers it but “discomfort” certainly fits.

    423. Craig Murray says:

      Mac at 6.51pm I agree with most of what you write. And you are undoubtedly correct – there will be MI5 assets, and possibly even officers, infiltrating both the SNP and the wider Yes Movement.

      But your view of their methods is limited to the role of agents provocateurs. Yes, those will exist, whose method is to try to move the movement towards violence to discredit it.

      But there is another type of agent, agents of influence, long term sleepers. Their method is to move the SNP into a safely Establishment agenda – pro-NATO, right wing economics etc. They would help influence the leadership and conference to right wing
      policies and might, for example, denounce the most effective pro-Independence campaigners like the owner of this blog in the MSM as cybernats.

      With the hidden hand of the state giving them a fair wind, you would be surprised how high in a party such agents of influence can rise.

    424. stewartb says:

      Completely O/T!

      There may be a few ‘anoraks’ out there with my (non specialist) interest in international law and the emergence of new independent states, and especially how the UK government has addressed this matter in recent history. I read somewhere (perhaps BTL here) about the UK government’s position on the legality of Kosovo’s declaration of independence. However I never had the actual source to review – until now!

      Below is a link to the formal written submission of HMG to the International Court of Justice in 2009. It is a fascinating read -at least for me it is!


      While the submission asserts that the UK’s opinion on Kosova sets no precedent (and clearly Scotland is NOT Kosovo), it does however include some interesting statements by HMG e.g.:

      “Para 7.1:

      (a) International law does not address the legality of declarations of independence per se. Accordingly, the Declaration of Independence by Kosovo is not incompatible with international law.
      (b) In any event, the Declaration of Independence by Kosovo was in accordance with international law.”

      Well that’s clear!!

      Earlier in this submission HMG states:

      “Para 6.71: The Court is not asked to review the individual acts of recognition noted above. It is asked whether the unilateral declaration of independence by the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government of Kosovo is in accordance with international law. …… The following points are emphasised:

      (1) The question concerns international law, not the law of the predecessor State or the law applied in Kosovo prior to the declaration. All unilateral declarations of independence are by definition contrary to – or at least not provided for under – the law of the predecessor State.

      (2) The competence of the constitutional authority of the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government to issue and implement the Declaration of Independence is not before the Court. It is significant, however, that:

      (a) the Declaration evidently had the strong support of the people of Kosovo: it reflected the will of that people substantially declared;

      (b) following a careful investigation of options, it was specifically envisaged and foreshadowed by the Ahtissari Report;

      (c) it was not condemned or criticized by any United Nations organ;

      (d) it was an internal act in no way inconsistent with any peremptory norm
      of general international law;

      (e) far from a concerted policy of non-recognition being adopted against it, Kosovo?s independence has attracted numerous recognitions by other States.”

    425. Craig Murray says:

      Stewartb – Yes. The key arguments are actually at paras 5.5 to 5.7:

      5.5 Consistent with this general approach, international law has not treated the legality of
      the act of secession under the internal law of the predecessor State as determining the effect
      of that act on the international plane. In most cases of secession, of course, the predecessor
      State?s law will not have been complied with: that is true almost as a matter of definition.

      5.6 Nor is compliance with the law of the predecessor State a condition for the declaration
      of independence to be recognised by third States, if other conditions for recognition are
      fulfilled. The conditions do not include compliance with the internal legal requirements of
      the predecessor State. Otherwise the international legality of a secession would be
      predetermined by the very system of internal law called in question by the circumstances in
      which the secession is occurring.

      5.7 For the same reason, the constitutional authority of the seceding entity to proclaim
      independence within the predecessor State is not determinative as a matter of international
      law. In most if not all cases, provincial or regional authorities will lack the constitutional
      authority to secede. The act of secession is not thereby excluded. Moreover, representative
      institutions may legitimately act, and seek to reflect the views of their constituents, beyond
      the scope of already conferred power.

      I analyze it here.

      It was part of the subject of my speech at the AUOB march.

    426. stewartb says:

      Craig Murray @ 8:12 pm

      Many thanks for the these additional pointers.

      And this, from para 5.7 is an absolute cracker!!!

      “Moreover, representative institutions may legitimately act, and seek to reflect the views of their constituents, beyond the scope of already conferred power.”

    427. Eric McLean says:

      Rosa, is that you?

    428. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dan (O/T).

      If you’re dipping in…

      RE: Tartan Tory’s Audi.

      See my comment in “Spilt Black Milk”:

    429. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Craig Murray (8.02) has raised an issue which will surely draw accusations of tinfoil-hattery etc.

      It seems scarcely credible that anyone could even doubt that the British State has long-since infiltrated every organised group with the potential to present the slightest threat to The Establishment. But such characters appear, like clockwork, in response to any suggestion that the intelligence services are capable of such chicanery.

      And if one dares to even attempt to provide examples? That’s when the white noise of mockery is cranked right up and the original fact is lost.

      That fact is that the British State has been countering subversive behaviour for centuries and is extremely fucking good at it. None of us should be surprised at so-and-so being ‘exposed’ as a mole, sleeper, ‘Deep Throat’ or whatever-else thirty, forty years hence. No-one is exempt.

      (What if I was an MI5 asset? How would you know one way or t’other? Think I would admit it?)

      Let’s just wait and see what follows this comment.

      FWIW, I had the good fortune to bump into Craig Murray while walking down High St towards the Green last Saturday, and he told me a cracking wee story about Alex Salmond (which I will not divulge!) but it underlined the point I’m alluding to – the intelligence services are over us like a rash and we’d all do well to remember that, no matter what company we happen to find ourselves in.

    430. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. contemporary British nationalism, the full-English Brexit and Scotland’s apparent state of helplessness.

      Destroying Sanctuary: The Crisis in Human Service Delivery Systems
      Authoritarianism, Disempowerment, and Learned Helplessness

      Rarely does the subject of power and abusive power come up for open discussion in social service environments and yet it is a critical component of any organizational setting. As communication breaks down, errors compound and the situation feels increasingly out of control, organizational leaders become more controlling and authoritarian. Under these circumstances, workplace bullying is likely to increase at all levels and organizations may become vulnerable to petty tyrants.

      As the organization becomes more hierarchical and autocratic there is a progressive and simultaneous isolation of leaders and a “dumbing down” of staff, with an accompanying “learned helplessness” and loss of critical thinking skills. The organization and the individuals in it become highly risk-avoidant.

      Efforts to empower workers may pay only lip service to true participatory processes. Although the importance of organizational democracy has long been recognized, true efforts to implement workplace democracy have often become forms of bogus empowerment and bullies are given license to intimidate other people.

      Keywords: power, control, learned helplessness, risk avoidance, centralized control, authoritarianism, leadership, bullying, toxic leaders, petty tyrants, workplace democracy, bogus empowerment

    431. Essexexile says:

      How on earth has the Yes movement, at THE moment of political opportunity got itself bogged down in messy disagreements with itself about online etiquette and gender politics.
      As stumbling blocks go, they are pretty shit ones. All this talk of MI5 agents and Unionist plants, if the indy movement continues to lunch itself they’ll be laid off quicker than Cubby can type ‘concern troll’! (that’s a joke by the way, I return to WoS hoping for a more amicable debate).

    432. CameronB Brodie says:

      Now we’re getting somewhere. More on the ‘mechanics’ of contemporary British nationalism.

      Polities Change, Oppression Remains:
      on the Psychology and Politics of Oppression

      While both postindustrial and emerging states face economic, cultural, and political changes, the constant of oppression remains. Economically and culturally marginalized groups continue to endure untold degrees of suffering. From a moral point of view, it is imperative that social scientists attend to the needs of the oppressed.

      This paper examines the dynamics of oppression in postindustrial and emerging states from both a psychological and political perspective. The reality of oppression may be understood from various levels of analysis, from the macrolevel of global economic and political structures, to the microlevel of internalized psychological images of inferiority. A comprehensive analysis of oppression will emerge only from an interdisciplinary approach that integrates the political with the psychological. Otherwise, efforts to reduce conditions of oppression will be inhibited by limited perspectives that neglect either the internal or external domains.

      We explore some of the psychological mechanisms accounting for oppression, such as learned helplessness, internalization of hegemonic self-rejecting views, and obedience to authority. Some of the political mechanisms accounting for oppression in emerging countries include the oppressive structure of international financial systems and internal colonization. We conclude by outlining the process of conscientization necessary to overcome conditions of oppression at all levels of analysis.

      KEY WORDS: oppression, consciousness raising, emancipation, social theory, psychological oppression, political oppression, empowerment

    433. PRO-LOCO says:

      On the general point of “are VAT revenues consistent and predictable for resourcing” a fixed budget (?)- the answer is “No”. Apart from issues such as quarterly returns, repayments returns on a monthly basis, the non-quantifiable nature of revenue raised from partial exemption( very important to Scotland because of the large financial, education and healthcare sectors), variability of the effect of tax avoidance, there is also the problem of liability decisions which retrospectively alter the revenue raised – almost inevitably to the detriment of the revenue. On occasion, decisions reached , after the revenue has been raised and accounted for have adversely affected revenue raised by billions in any one year. A pro-rata adjustment to the UK tax base of a one billion £ adjustment would require Scottish budgets to be adjusted by ( £1b * 50%= £500m * 8.7% =)£40.375 Million)
      This was an amount that had the opposition in the Scottish parliament posing ‘serious questions’ because it represented an underspend of the budget.
      Without a general underwriting of the risk posed by false accounting(tax evasion), historic liability (successful tax avoidance) tax point accounting, and future UK budget tax law revisions ( eg reducing the VAT rate at a time after a Scottish budget takes effect), amongst other risks – there can be no confidence* (within a wide range of outcomes) of a specific amount of VAT being raised in any one year.
      I appreciate a lot of this is a bit tech-speak outwith of the tax population – but is well known within HMRC circles.

    434. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon says:10 May, 2019 at 8:00 pm:

      ” … I don’t know if “dizziness” covers it but “discomfort” certainly fits.”

      Unlikely to be dizziness. Your balance is done by your inner ear and dizziness is caused by problems with your inner ear. I’ll keep it as short and simple as I can.

      There are hair like bits in the inner ear and if these get damaged it affects your balance and causes dizziness. Many things can cause such damage but things like explosions, gunfire or extreme loud noise is the usual. Ear infections are also possible.

      I used to work on maintenance on the Dockyard big cranes and then after moving to the Radar Bay I had the occasional job of going out with the pilot cutter and boarding capital ships, (Breeches Buoy and really hairy), then as the ship sailed up the Forth I climbed the maim mast, unbolted the radar aerials and lashed them down to the mast to let the ship pass under the Forth Bridge.

      Atop a ships mast is hairy even on the calmest day as it swings about as the ship rolls. I had no fear of heights.

      After being subjected to a ships guns while working in what was effectively the gun base I suffer Meniere’s Disease, (inner ear damage), this cases Tinnitus and Vertigo.

      In your case it sounds just like you are not being exposed to heights very often so you should be able to improve your uncomfortable feeling by just practicing being in high but safe places and toughing it out.

      By the way I’m still not frightened of heights and the dizziness of Vertigo is treatable by medication, (SERC), but I found, a couple of years ago that, like you, I felt uncomfortable with heights. So I deliberately exposed myself to the heights at every opportunity and the uneasiness went away. I wish the Tinnitus would do the same – but it doesn’t.

      Believe me if you did have Vertigo you certainly would be in no doubt about it. I cannot even go up or down in a lift or I end up falling on the floor and it takes at least 30 minutes, and often throwing up, before things get better. It feels like acute sea sickness or like being too long on fairground rides except it doesn’t clear up in minutes.

    435. boris says:

      New powers were formally committed to in the heavily promoted Unionist “Vow” made in the last few days before the 2014 independence referendum.

      The Smith Commission Panel subsequently agreed to a full devolution of abortion law, the creation of a separate Scottish Health & Safety Executive, lotteries, asylum and a much greater say in the governance of the BBC.

      Devolution of income tax personal allowances, bands and rates, employers’ National Insurance contributions, inheritance tax, the power to create new taxes without Treasury approval and a raft of other taxes were also agreed.

      But all of the foregoing changes were axed, in the final day, at the instigation of Unionist parties, without explanation.

    436. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi R Peffers.

      Thanks for further info.

    437. Robert Peffers says:

      @Craig Murray says: 10 May, 2019 at 8:02 pm:

      ” … there will be MI5 assets, and possibly even officers, infiltrating both the SNP and the wider Yes Movement.”

      You can say that again, Craig. We had them in the party way back when I was a schoolboy., (and that wasn’t the day before yesterday). Not only that but we knew they were watching us and there were indeed also agents provocateurs too. We were regarded as the lunatic fringe and that was the work, even back then, of the Broadcasters and SMSM.

      I’ve never had the slightest doubt that what you were exposing was very true but then I spent 50 years as an Industrial Civil Servant with the MOD.

    438. Robert Peffers says:

      @Craig Murray says: 9 May, 2019 at 7:59 pm:

      ” … I am a bit prone to hero worship myself. I would walk through fire for Alex Salmond, for example, and probably faint if I met Sean Connery.”

      I wouldn’t faint if I met Sean Connery, (again), and I’ll give you a wee smile. As a schoolboy in Edinburgh my parents were not exactly poor but there was very little excess cash floating about and I wanted a new bicycle. So I Got myself a paper round. It covered a bit of the Fountainbridge area any a lot of the tenements around Toll Cross and the Meadows.

      In the mornings I often spoke with the guy why delivered milk around parts of my paper round. He was well known around the area and we called him Big Tam.

      Yes, you got it in one, Craig, Sean Connery was Big Tam the milkman.

    439. Craig Murray says:


      Thanks. Yes, my dad knew him too. My dad was born and grew up in Johnston Terrace. Sadly I have never met him. But Connery actually quotes me in his book “Being a Scot” and I just felt very proud that he knew I existed.

    440. Ken500 says:

      The SNP/Independence is still winning.

      That must annoy M15, the Westminster unionist imbeciles and the rest.

      They could not make a bigger mess. The Brexit absolute shambles. Westminster unionists are the laughing stock of the world. The Tories waiting to get voted out. So someone else can clear up their usual mess. No one wants the poison chalice.

      The LibDem caused this mess. ConDems. Just a bunch of sleekit liars.

      Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

      That will annoy the Westminster unionists liars. M15. Keeping their lies and corruption under the Official Secrets Act. Warmongering liars, Killing their own citizens. Shameless,

    441. Ken500 says:

      VAT in Scotland has always been recognised to be estimated too low. £6Billion, Compared to eg Ireland £7.5Billion.

    442. Ken500 says:

      Have some people not got a Blog. Where to go.

    443. Essexexile says:

      I agree totally that Westminster unionists are a laughing stock. Heck, I think even they are finally starting to realise what a complete shit storm they’ve created in their handling of Brexit.
      I don’t agree with you about the libdems. Misguided probably, naive certainly but ‘sleekit liars’ no.
      And, just keep on voting SNP / indy, yes I agree (not that I can of course but I can help influence those who can). I just wish the SNP would make themselves a more attractive target for undecideds. Prattling on about the rights of defendants to self identify with whichever pronoun they wish is hardly a ‘call to arms’ for independence is it? At the risk of complicating the basis of the SNP’s thinking on gender identity, I do wish they’d grow a pair of bollocks

    444. Terry says:

      @craig Murray.

      Great interview with Alex yesterday. Really looking forward to the next instalment. There’s not many that would put their careers and indeed life on the line. You did. (Plus you are dead smart ?)

    445. Clapper57 says:

      BBC pulls tonight’s episode of Have I got News for you…because of EU election rules…because Heidi Allen, who was on show,is leader of a political party or some other shit excuse ….however Nigel Farage…LEADER of a political party (also fielding candidates in EU elections) was on BBC QT last night….I’m stumped at what distinction is…since neither shows are actual serious political shows..more comedy…one satire and one laughable ( not in a good way)…

      Still….I’m sure It’ll be Alright on the Night….obvs Heidi was assumed to be The Weakest Link or Pointless by the BBC…Take Your Pick….perhaps they preferred Nigel’s Catchphrase..or perhaps they think he is a Mastermind…tempted to swear but instead will just type Blankety Blank.

      I’ll get my coat…3 2 1

    446. mike cassidy says:

      You don’t need to be paranoid to think they’re out there infiltrating and subverting.

      It looks like some of them are even going to get away with rape.

    447. ScottieDog says:

      @Robert Peffers
      “In the mornings I often spoke with the guy why delivered milk around parts of my paper round. He was well known around the area and we called him Big Tam.

      Yes, you got it in one, Craig, Sean Connery was Big Tam the milkman.”

      Love that Robert

    448. Essexexile says:

      Clapper 57.
      It was probably because hignfy had some unfortunate exchange about Freddie Starr that was suddenly in very poor taste.
      Farage is a shoo-in for QT with useless Bruce as Chairperson (Christ, she really is shit at the job isn’t she?). Only ageing, angry gammons (of all denominations) watch QT and most of them think Nige is ace. So it’s hardly surprising that the BBC keep booking him is it?

    449. Dr Jim says:

      In a study by Loughborough University they found that one in four right wing Conservatives are liars and post fake information on the internet (mostly men)

      Reported by Sky news 10:30 pm press preview 10/05/2019

      So there you have it more than 20% of Tories are liars, it’s official and nice to have what we all knew, confirmed

    450. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@11.05pm

      Always thought it was a lot higher than 20%.

    451. Clapper57 says:

      @ Essexexile @11.04

      Hi Essexexile, not sure though….was it not deemed MORE offensive to have Farage on last night Lol…..certainly was in my opinion..the height of bad taste….but then suppose that’s the BBC all over…what they deem offensive and public deems offensive is poles apart….and they do it deliberately !

      Have a good evening…what’s left of it.

    452. Cubby says:

      Wings well established plants.

      Cassandra = dahlia – a beautiful plant.

      Colin Alexander – the bluebell – a plant found naturally in Scotland.

      Essexexile = Japanese Knotweed – a menace throughout England and very difficult to get rid of.

    453. Roughian says:

      VAT we once had HMRC speak at a trade association I was in. When asked about collecting from cash shops, he replied. We estimate a figure, if they pay we up the figure next time. If they pay we up the figure and keep doing that till they complain then we know we’re close to what they should be paying.

    454. HandandShrimp says:

      Out of curiosity, what is the data protection issue with the mail merge cock up?

      The SNP have sent out an election leaflet to voters. The leaflet contains no personal information. It could have simply been addressed to the occupier. The fact that some have a random name on them (mine was fine) doesn’t disclose anything personal to anyone. It may have someone’s name on it but it doesn’t have their address or any other details. What can one do with a random name other than sing “that’s not my name”?

      An embarrassment certainly because no one likes to make mistakes but a data breach? What am I missing?

    455. Dr Jim says:


      They didn’t study all the Tories, probably because the other 80% of them lied that they were Tories and only the 20% they did test admitted they were Tories, that probably makes hunners o thoosands and thoosands and thoosands o the buggers

    456. Capella says:

      @ HandandShrimp – well I’ve not got mine yet. So that’s what I’m missing. Has it been sent to someone else? Don’t know. All I’ve had is a bleat from Willie Rennie about “please make it stop”. No.

    457. Colin Alexander says:

      As the old adage goes: Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.

      I was of the view that by mass membership of the SNP the leadership and politicians would be held to account. That has not happened.

      Bloggers like Craig Murray especially were beginning to reflect the same unhappiness and concern, such as I have regularly expressed for quite a while now, that the SNP leadership have bedded in as administrators of devolution and enjoy too much the role of being Westminster big players in British politics. The SNP have grown comfortable and content as the respected administrators of the Union in Scotland.

      Other Bloggers, such as Stu have also expressed their own doubts about the SNP’s commitment to putting indy first or expressed serious doubts about what plans and preparations the SNP have in place when their mandate is ticking down day by day.

      Thus, the SNP have attacked them to undermine them.

      The SNP not only want to “lead” the independence movement, they want to control it too. Not just to prevent bad behaviour that damages the reputation of the independence movement. That control includes the silencing or ridiculing of dissenting voices, such as online bloggers who dare criticise the lack of progress towards independence.

      The SNP don’t control AUOB and the bloggers. They don’t control the marchers for independence. So, they are undermining them, even if that means undermining independence.

      No person and no party is bigger than the cause. That cause is Scotland’s democratic freedom. The SNP should remember that. The SNP are a means to an end, not an end in itself.

      IF the best the SNP have to offer is a devolution dead-end: an indyref which won’t be held without Royal Assent, in a UK that that’s already made it clear it won’t give Royal Assent, then we will find another road to independence with or without the SNP’s leadership’s approval.

    458. Clapper57 says:

      @ HandandShrimp @ 11.41pm

      Hi I believe they addressed it to actual person but posted to a different person’s address …also salutation was the person’s first name ….Willie Rennie’s salutation was Edna…LOL….big Jessie would have been better for him. ( so not addressed to occupier).

      So your name could have been on address line but leaflet was posted to someone else’s address…..assume but not sure people named were members of SNP…not 100% sure if that is the case though…

    459. Dr Jim says:

      The Brexit party says Nicola Sturgeon isn’t Scottish so don’t vote for her, she’s actually British (that’s the made up nationality the English invented to make us think we’re all the same except we’re not when it comes to voting or respect or well anything really)

      No! says the Brexit party Nicola Sturgeon being British means she’s a EU puppet, they say

      Nicola Sturgeon joined the SNP 30 years ago when they were’nt anybody, she could’ve joined the Labour party if all she wanted was to be a pocket lining puppet

      If Alex Salmond had joined the Labour party it’s likely he would have been a prime minister

      Puppets? Nah!

    460. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Of course we are infiltrated. We have always been infiltrated. At all levels most certainly. SNP has always been aware of infiltrators and has often decided to leave them exactly where they are as that is less damaging (and more instructive) than trying to put them out.

      We are dealing with a very clever and well practiced enemy. How can you be sure we are not dealing with an actual infiltrator whenever we meet somebody complaining about infiltrators and directing suspicion against others?

      I can think of several people who fit that bill.

    461. Robert Peffers says:

      @Essexexile says: 10 May, 2019 at 10:49 pm:

      ” … I do wish they’d grow a pair of bollocks”

      Oh! for God’s! Are you for real? just for example Nicola Sturgeon gets masses of threats including death treats yet she walks around among crowds giving selfies with folks.

      Joanne Cherry just had death treats considered by the police to be serious enough to need police escorts and you think them far too timid? Whatever else they are it is not lacking in courage.

      What is more anyone with a modicum of common sense knows that the worse possible thing that the SG could do just now is to call a referendum – and lose it.

      There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the SNP and the Scottish government and the people they have working full time plus the SG’s legal officers and team plus the party’s employees, legal teams and experts are a damned site better informed and have a great deal more and better information than commenters on on-line blogs going on gut feelings only.

      When the time is right and there is enough evidence of there actually being a decent majority for independence there will be a referendum or perhaps some legal bid none of us have even considered.

      Now why would a responsible leader of the SNP blab their plans to anyone outside a very closed circle of trusted people? Look round about you, here on Wings even.

      There’s a daily torrent of people like you running down the First Minister and anyone else they can dream up and get the slightest excuse to threaten to resign the party, not vote for the SNP or threaten not to vote on anything to help the cause but only too ready to do anything they can think off to help out the unionist cause.

      You do not win independence by acting against the only party in Scotland with a chance of winning our independence. What is more many of us are here today that have campaigned for 50, 60,70 and 80 years from the days when we were lucky to meet another independence supporter outside of a branch meeting in several months and people thought us demented loonies.

      Who was it got us this far? It sure as hell wasn’t the YES Movement or AUOB for they didn’t exist until recently.

    462. Essexexile says:

      Well. If we’re playing that game my old sage (Salvia officinalis), you’re a Common bindweed (Convolvulus arvensis). Virtually resistant to all control measures and has a low, creeping habit which smothers everything.
      You won’t beat me in the garden sunshine, believe me.

    463. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. honest Tories. You what? There’s no such thing.

      Exploring the Relationship Between Honesty-Humility, the Big Five, and Liberal Values in Swedish Students


      Previous research on the Five-Factor model (Big Five) reports a relationship between personality traits and liberal values, and the trait Agreeableness has demonstrated the strongest relationship. The HEXACO model offers a complement to the Five-factor model with an additional sixth trait of Honesty-Humility.

      Previous research on the Honesty-Humility trait has reported mixed results with liberal values, and this study set out to resolve this. The work presented here explored the relationship between the Honesty-Humility trait on facet-level (Sincerity, Fairness, Greed-avoidance and Modesty) and liberal values (equality for women, minorities, and socio-economical groups).

      Data from Swedish students (N = 202), known for their individualistic and liberal mindset, were sampled. There was an overall positive correlation between Honesty-Humility and the strength of liberal values (r = .36), and Honesty-Humility predicted liberal values beyond Agreeableness. We discuss these results in terms of the significance of traits and values in a culture that promotes both individualism and equality.

      Keywords: honesty-humility, HEXACO, Big Five, greed-avoidance, liberalism

    464. Dr Jim says:

      Don’t like the SNP? don’t like what they’re doing? phone this number 01313485634 they can help

    465. Essexexile says:

      I’m absolutely not running down the FM. She is a world leader in waiting, no question and I trust her judgement totally. But her advisors, not so much. There are some within the party, on the coat tails of elected representatives, who have their feet under the table and are pushing their personal agendas regardless of any effect it may have on undecideds. I’m not a member of the SNP so don’t have a say in party policy, but as a supporter of indy I would urge them to work out what their priorities are.

    466. CameronB Brodie says:

      My animosity towards the Tories isn’t blind intolerance, it’s informed by philosophy and leading-edge cognitive science and stuff.

      The closed mind: ‘Experience’ and ‘cognition’ aspects of openness to experience and need for closure as psychological bases for right?wing attitudes


      Openness to Experience and Need for Closure (NFC) are dispositional variables related to social?cultural right-wing attitudes. The present study investigated their joint effects. Factor analysis revealed an ‘experiential’ dimension with high loading openness items, and a ‘cognition’ dimension with high loadings for most NFC items and about a quarter of the openness item set.

      The experiential openness items were weakly related to right-wing attitudes, demonstrating little predictive value. Conversely, the cognitive openness and NFC items were powerful predictors of right?wing attitudes, and also played an important role in integrative models, both as a predictor of authoritarianism-based racism and as a mediator of age related increments in right?wing attitudes.

      It is concluded that right-wing attitudes should be primarily understood in terms of (motivated) cognition, and to a smaller extent in terms of experiential openness. The distinction between ‘experiential’ and ‘cognitive’ openness is critically assessed, and it is asserted that because cognition is a multifaceted construct openness contains more than one cognitive dimension. Copyright © 2010 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

    467. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers

      They aren’t complaining for our benefit Robert, they can’t change our minds, it’s the wider audience they seek, unfortunately this successful website now offers free access to do that, but with that success comes the risk of it’s own downfall sad to say

    468. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tories are largely driven by fear, prejudice and greed, obvs.

      Allport’s Prejudiced personality today:
      Need for closure as the motivated cognitive basis of prejudice


      In the long history of psychological research on prejudice, Allport?s (1954) book The Nature of Prejudice is undoubtedly the foundational work, advancing ideas that remain highly influential and relevant to date. Guided by the seminal ideas of this leading scholar, we illustrate how contemporary psychological research has accumulated evidence for a basic, motivated cognitive style underlying prejudice in its different forms. Specifically, we demonstrate that Allport?s classic conception of this basic cognitive style is exceptionally well captured by the “modern” construct of need for cognitive closure (NFC), and we review the recent evidence for NFC effects on racism and sexism.

      Integrating Allport?s writings with contemporary research, we also show that the effects of motivated cognition on prejudice are explained (i.e., mediated) by essentialist thinking and authoritarian ideology. Finally, we discuss recent evidence indicating that, in contrast to Allport?s pessimistic predictions, intergroup contact is especially effective in reducing prejudice among people high in NFC. It is concluded that recent research on NFC provides a solid empirical basis for Allport?s hypothesis that a general motivated cognitive style lies at the basis of prejudice.

    469. Clapper57 says:

      @ Cameron B Brodie

      “Tories are largely driven by fear, prejudice and greed, obvs”

      Hi Cameron….Tories are also largely driven by chauffeurs…..really sorry could not resist.

      Have a good day tomorrow …as too late to say have a good evening….also as it is 12.32am it is today so if I wish you good day tomorrow do I mean Sunday nope today as in Saturday….see I am not as stupid as wot I seem to be…

    470. Petra says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill at 12:03am …….. “We are dealing with a very clever and well practised enemy. How can you be sure we are not dealing with an actual infiltrator whenever we meet somebody complaining about infiltrators and directing suspicion against others? I can think of several people who fit that bill.”

      Spot on Dave. I can think of several people too who fit the bill and are so “clever and well practised” that they are duping people big time. Wakey, wakey folks. Time to remove the scales from your eyes and start thinking outside of the box.

    471. CameronB Brodie says:

      Clapper57 🙂

    472. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Colin Alexander @ 23:51,

      Someone said something more interesting recently.

      What power actually does is reveal.

      (And in that light, we can all observe for ourselves, thank you, the vast difference between the Mayhem Gang and the SG. Not to mention your predictable take on the latter and your ever-eager blindness to the former.)

    473. yesindyref2 says:

      It wasn’t SNP members, I think it was those registered for postal votes.

    474. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ all, 12 days to go till we return to Voting for Scotland IN Europe again. Aye Dorothy and Willie, we just got tae keep on powering on, the key is coconut oil and lots of water, cheers Cubby, glad ye enjoyed the show… ahm ah mahn of many hats 😉

      THIS is your dress rehearsal for Indyref2:

      What will the turnout for Scotland be for Europe

    475. Clapper57 says:

      @ yesindyref2 @ 12.39am

      Cheers…I know nothing…Lol

      Hope you are feeling better.

      Have a good day.

    476. Hamish100 says:

      Dave McEwan Hill and Robert Peffers. I agree with you both.
      I’m doomed i tell ye, doomed

    477. Essexexile says:

      Please, name names. We want to know who the ‘several people’ you can think of might be.
      Nobody here is it? Not Cubby, surely. He doesn’t know enough about gardening!

    478. yesindyref2 says:

      Worth pointing out by the way that while the three amigos who retweeted the link to the Herald “cybernat” article, never said a dickie bird about the 102,311 person March at the time or afterwards, Sturgeon DID at the time as a retweet of this:

      WATCH ?: Thousands of people in Glasgow are taking part in a march for Scottish independence. The event starts at Kelvingrove Park and will end with a rally at Glasgow Green later this evening.

    479. yesindyref2 says:

      Getting there 🙂

      Been taking it a bit easy. Can’t really afford to as this is the time I make money (or not as the case is at the moment), but I can’t make money if I put myself back in hospital!

    480. Clapper57 says:

      Hi Cubby I am sorry if I offend you, not intentional, but you MUST admit that Essexexile’s comment re Petra’s post on ‘plants’ and his post stating “Not Cubby, surely. He doesn’t know enough about gardening!”…was hilarious.

      Really sorry but I laughed and laughed as it was so so funny.

      Now that was a punchline.

      See we can have a laugh on here….I bet you laughed too Cubby.

    481. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      When Scotland is finally independent, do we think that our government will not be the target for all sorts of attempts at influence, from the overt all the way down to the shady? Just like all the rest. So what’s new? So what difference now?

      I was reminded recently that one of the favourite tactics of the late-unlamented Stasi was not to lock everyone up, since there wasn’t enough jail space anyway, but instead to sow discord and raise mutual suspicions among the opposition. A version of divide-and-conquer. So when I see anyone deliberately raising the issue amongst us to sow suspicion, I clock it. Fools and knaves.

      I’m just an engaged citizen doing my civic duty and exercising my democratic rights. There isn’t a thing I would say on here or elsewhere that I wouldn’t say direct to someone from MI5 if I knew who they were. Seems to me the only people who worry about that are the ones who are not what they pretend to be.

      As for public policy post-indy, that will be in the hands of the electorate, using a grown-up plebiscite fit for the 21st century. The only grumblers and nay-sayers are those who wish to impose something else, because they fear that their minority preferences will fail to prevail.

    482. CameronB Brodie says:

      Want to understand how your oppressor’s mind works? 😉

      The 12 Item Social and Economic Conservatism Scale (SECS)


      Recent years have seen a surge in psychological research on the relationship between political ideology (particularly conservatism) and cognition, affect, behaviour, and even biology. Despite this flurry of investigation, however, there is as yet no accepted, validated, and widely used multi-item scale of conservatism that is concise, that is modern in its conceptualisation, and that includes both social and economic conservatism subscales. In this paper the 12-Item Social and Economic Conservatism Scale (SECS) is proposed and validated to help fill this gap. The SECS is suggested to be an important and useful tool for researchers working in political psychology.

      Social dominance orientation and right wing authoritarianism

      A final approach to measuring conservatism has been to assess conservatism indirectly, by using scales that do not directly measure political conservatism, but rather beliefs, cognitive styles, and dispositions from which conservatism can be inferred. A common example of this is Social Dominance Orientation (SDO) [34], which reflects an individual’s endorsement of intergroup hierarchies and inequalities and correlates strongly with political conservatism (e.g. [34, 35]).

      Given this strong correlation it is then possible to infer greater endorsement of conservative ideology. An important concern remains, however, that conservatism is still theoretically distinct from SDO. As reflecting individuals’ endorsement of intergroup hierarchies, social dominance is clearly related to conservatism. Importantly, however, SDO is not synonymous with conservative ideology for it remains possible in principle for one to be a ‘principled conservative’ who is opposed to equality based on beliefs in equity, fairness, and responsibility rather than prejudice. As such, one cannot take scores on SDO to represent political conservatism per se.

      Another example of this approach can be seen in the use of Right Wing Authoritarianism (RWA) [36]. RWA is a personality and ideological variable that taps willingness to submit to authorities, support of social conventions and norms, and hostility towards those who do not adhere to such social norms, and has been consistently associated with conservatism. However, as with SDO, it is not always possible to correctly infer political conservatism from high RWA scores. At a practical level, the relationship between conservatism and authoritarianism depends on the context: an authoritarian in Cold War Russia was likely to support the Communist Party and so be anti-capitalist, while authoritarians in the U.S. at the same time were likely to be opponents of communism.

      Further, as Stenner [37] argues, authoritarianism and conservatism are distinct because authoritarianism focuses on aversion to difference across space (i.e. diversity of people and beliefs at the present time), while conservatism reflects aversion to difference over time (i.e. change). As such, there is no logical connection between the two, even if they often co-occur in practice.

      In addition to such logical errors between inferring political conservatism from a measure that explicitly taps a construct related to – though distinct from – support of conservative policies and political parties, there are also broader philosophical and ethical issues. Measuring conservatism in this way is an example of what is known in philosophy as a “thick concept”: a concept that has a descriptive content but that also has a negative evaluative load. In measuring conservatism through measuring SDO and RWA, the concept (‘conservatism’) acquires an evaluative load, since both SDO and RWA are conceptualised as measures of discrimination (SDO), aggression, and faulty reasoning (RWA). As such, to define conservatism based on these negatively laden evaluative concepts is to exhibit a value judgement on the nature of conservatism.

      Despite difficulty in practice, it is often accepted that objective science should be as value-free as possible [38], such that our scientific theories and methods tap ‘objective’ concepts that are not unduly value-laden. It is important, then, that our methodological operationalization of conservatism should be as neutral and value-free as possible, through assessing participants’ support of ‘conservative issues’ and support for conservative political parties and leaders. Conservatism in this operationalization may be associated with RWA and SDO, but that association is a further empirical step rather than one that adds value to the concept.

    483. Clapper57 says:


      Glad you are feeling a bit better.

      Please take care…you are one of the good guys.

      Take care.

    484. chicmac says:

      @Mac 6:51 pm

      Many good points.

    485. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’ve tapped another mother-load. 🙂

      The Personality Bases of Political Ideology and Behavior

      [t]he influence of any doctrine or idea depends on the extent to which it appeals to psychic needs in the character structure of those to whom it is addressed. (Fromm, 1941/2011: 65)

      System Support and Political Participation

      Empirical research has also investigated the associations between personality and public support for the overarching socio-political systems as well as political participation. The psychological underpinnings of system legitimization have been explored by System Justification Theory, which posits that people have a tendency to support socio-political systems, even if it works to their disadvantage (Jost and Banaji, 1994; Jost and Hunyady, 2005).

      Although political ideology tends to be associated with system-justifying tendencies, with conservatives showing higher system justification than liberals (Jost, Nosek et al., 2008), we review work on the personality correlates of political ideology and support for political systems separately. One’s attitudes toward the political system can be expressed in more active ways, by participating in politics.

      Political participation can take various forms, ranging from institutional (such as voting) to non-institutional ones (such as protests; van der Meer and van Ingen, 2009), which can further range from individualized (e.g., consumer boycott) to collective ones (e.g., demonstrations; van Stekelenburg et al., 2016).

      All of these activities assume political engagement within the norms of the wider political system. We will discuss them broadly under the umbrella term of political participation, although at times we also specifically address radical or
      disruptive actions that go beyond the acceptable norms (e.g., violent riots; Jost et al., 2012; Tausch et al., 2011).

    486. Cubby says:


      No problem. No offence taken.

      Of course the pratt from Essex is only demonstrating his English exceptionalism in thinking, without knowing me, he knows more about gardening.

      Just like all Britnats he breaks his promises.” I’m finished with Wings I’m gone.”

    487. CameronB Brodie says:

      Would folk please try to hold judgement on others until they’ve got sufficient evidence on which to draw firm conclusions?

      Neural correlates of maintaining one’s political beliefs in the face of counterevidence


      People often discount evidence that contradicts their firmly held beliefs. However, little is known about the neural mechanisms that govern this behavior. We used neuroimaging to investigate the neural systems involved in maintaining belief in the face of counterevidence, presenting 40 liberals with arguments that contradicted their strongly held political and non-political views. Challenges to political beliefs produced increased activity in the default mode network—a set of interconnected structures associated with self-representation and disengagement from the external world.

      Trials with greater belief resistance showed increased response in the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex and decreased activity in the orbitofrontal cortex. We also found that participants who changed their minds more showed less BOLD signal in the insula and the amygdala when evaluating counterevidence. These results highlight the role of emotion in belief-change resistance and offer insight into the neural systems involved in belief maintenance, motivated reasoning, and related phenomena.

    488. Petra says:

      Why are people STILL keeping the pot boiling with last weeks news? We’ve got 12 days to go to the EU Elections whereby we really need to back the SNP to the hilt and yet the constant griping and undermining of the party goes on and on and on. What about giving us all a break and start promoting the party instead to improve our chances of actually doing well in the Elections? Not too much to ask for, is it, on a pro-Independence site?

    489. ronnie anderson says:

      Dave Mc Ewan Hill its irrespective how many infiltrators there are within the Yes movement if we all vote SNP their bullshit propoganda is useless .

    490. CameronB Brodie says:

      Perhaps I’m a virus that isn’t genetically programmed to make important political decisions? Now where might I have heard something like that before?

      The genetics of politics: discovery, challenges, and progress

      For the greater part of human history, political behaviors, values, preferences, and institutions have been viewed as socially determined. Discoveries during the 1970s that identified genetic influences on political orientations remained unaddressed. However, over the past decade, an unprecedented amount of scholarship utilizing genetic models to expand the understanding of political traits has emerged.

      Here, we review the ‘genetics of politics’, focusing on the topics that have received the most attention: attitudes, ideologies, and pro-social political traits, including voting behavior and participation. The emergence of this research has sparked a broad paradigm shift in the study of political behaviors toward the inclusion of biological influences and recognition of the mutual co-dependence between genes and environment in forming political behaviors.

    491. Molly says:

      Robert Peffers , I’ve learned a lot from Wings and from seeing things from a different point of view so can I gently point of while yes the SNP is the vehicle to get us to Indy, the YES movement has played just as important a part in “ getting us to this point.”

      The whole point of Indy surely is because we can all see things that can be improved, we can all see we’ve started from such a far back place we’re desperate to see the changes and we’ve all invested time,effort, heart and soul so wanting the SNP to be a bit more radical or bold or even feisty is not a criticism, it’s activism. It’s pushing the party you support in the direction you want them to go.

      Yes to keep it legal and above board but wanting some of the MSPs to be a bit more proactive is not running them down, it’s demanding more from them and why shouldn’t we ? We’re not just voting for a one trick pony by supporting the SNP,we want change.

      The day Kenny Mcaskill gave his press conference announcing the release of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, was probably the day, I really believed the SNP could get us there.

      A decision that had huge global implications but I stopped the car and listened to Kenny Mcaskill complete his announcement. We were no longer in Kansas anymore.

      Well whether the rest of the World agreed with that decision or not, obviously people in Scotland got it ,given what followed.

      I can’t be the only one fed up reading about raptor persecution, crazy planning decisions and quangos who take responsibility for heehaw ,to name a few things.

      These matters can still be addressed while we continue to move for Independence and no I don’t expect Nicola to have to sort them out personally but then we don’t vote just for Nicola Sturgeon do we?

      The Yes movement is/was successful because its people coming from all walks of life who want a better Scotland . The vote was reckoned to be what 28% when we started and it’s precisely because people in the Yes movement could either see or came round to being able to see what an Independent Scotland could be that its stayed and flourished and that’s because people are constantly challenging and creating new ideas.

      Even Alex Salmond had to challenge the party to be able make progress.

      I listened to the WGD tonight and Elaine C Smith was being interviewed. She made a good point, the SNP need the YES movement and the YES movement needs the SNP .

      And I’m not being cheeky but someone I used to know, used that same argument they’d been in the party since Adam was a cowboy and I’ll say the same as I said to her, that may be,you’ve put the time in but we’re still no independent yet and everyone’s vote is equal however long you’ve paid your dues

    492. CameronB Brodie says:

      Nailed it. There’s nothing like a bit of science. 🙂

      Cognitive ability, ideological attitudes and prejudice

      The association of cognitive ability with right-wing ideological attitudes and prejudice: A meta-analytic review.


      The cognitive functioning of individuals with stronger endorsement of right-wing and prejudiced attitudes has elicited much scholarly interest. Whereas many studies investigated cognitive styles, less attention has been directed towards cognitive ability. Studies investigating the latter topic generally reveal lower cognitive ability to be associated with stronger endorsement of right-wing ideological attitudes and greater prejudice. However, this relationship has remained widely unrecognized in literature.

      The present meta-analyses revealed an average effect size of r = -.20 (CI 95%: -.23 to -.17; based on 67 studies, N = 84,017) for the relationship between cognitive ability and right-wing ideological attitudes, and an average effect size of r = -.19 (CI 95%: -.23 to -.16; based on 23 studies, N = 27, 011) for the relationship between cognitive ability and prejudice. Effect sizes did not vary significantly across different cognitive abilities and sample characteristics. The effect strongly depended on the measure used for ideological attitudes and prejudice, with the strongest effect sizes for authoritarianism and ethnocentrism. We conclude that cognitive ability is an important factor in the genesis of ideological attitudes and prejudice, and thus should become more central in theorizing and model-building.

    493. CameronB Brodie says:

      Know your vileness. 😉

      The Science of Swearing

      ….Considering the persistent need for an expert to consult for the above issues, it is odd that swearing expertise is weighted so differently when swearing is viewed from the perspective of psychological science. While hundreds of papers have been written about swearing since the early 1900s, they tend to originate from fields outside of psychology such as sociology, linguistics, and anthropology. When swearing is a part of psychological research, it is rarely an end in itself.

      It is far more common to see strong offensive words used as emotionally arousing stimuli — tools to study the effect of emotion on mental processes such as attention and memory.

      Why the public-versus-science disconnect? Is swearing, as a behavior, outside the scope of what a psychological scientist ought to study? Because swearing is influenced so strongly by variables that can be quantified at the individual level, psychological scientists (more than linguists, anthropologists, and sociologists) have the best training to answer questions about it. Another explanation for the relative lack of emphasis on this topic is the orientation of psychological science to processes (e.g., memory) rather than life domains (e.g., leisure activities), a problem described by Paul Rozin. Arguably, a more domain-centered approach to psychological study would better accommodate topics such as swearing and other taboo behaviors.

      Regardless of the reason for the relative lack of emphasis on swearing research per se inside psychological science, there is still a strong demand from outside the scientific community for explanations of swearing and associated phenomena. To give the reader a sense of the work that we do as psychological scientists who study swearing, let’s consider some of the common questions we’re asked about swearing.

    494. Clapper57 says:

      @ Cubby @ 1.21am

      Cheers..glad you did not take offence…as no offence was intended….I just saw the funny side of what he said…which I am sure he meant it to be funny….based on both of your previous comments re comparison to types of plants.

      Have a good day

    495. yesindyref2 says:

      Why are control freaks who might like to mind their own business and post something useful for a change, rather than spend post after post criticising genuine Independence supporters like Craig Murray, me, others (I wonder why, is this person a pretendy Indy supporters a fake, a plant like poison ivy, a troll, a member of the 77th?) unable to read and understand other people’s postings, like this one:

      The problem is there are (genuine) people who won’t put leaflets around now for the EU elections, are leaving the SNP, won;t bother voting, so it’s not something Smith and Robertson can just “leave until we’re independent”. By having endorsed the Herald article and NOT distancing themselves after, they’re doing real damage to the SNP EU election campaign.

      Which doesn’t affect Smith, he’s all right Jack as he’s number 1 on the SNP list.

      A bit of a shame for Margaret Ferrier who is number 4 on the list, was in with a chance, and WAS on the march and I think stage afterwards. Smith gets his arrogant stupidity, Ferrier suffers not him.

      Do you get it? No? If SNP members don’t go out leafletting, doorknocking, because they’re pissed off with Smith and the other total numpties, it’s not Smith and the total numpties who will suffer, it’s the other MEP candidates, particualrly including Margaret Ferrier who is in with a chance at 4th on the list, or was until the sheer and utter stupidity and appalling bad timing of Smith and the other idiots pissed off the very people who would be canvassing on behalf of all the MEP candidates?

      Do you need someome to spell out to you the damage that has done, don’t you read twitter threads? Don’t you read articles by nearly every single pro-Independence blogger?

      Or do you know fine and don’t want people like me to try to show people that it’s not Smith and the other tosspots they’re punishing by NOT campaigning in the EU elections, as they’re safe and Smith is absolutely certain at number 1 on the MEP candidate list to be elected, it’s enthusiastic YESsers like Margaret Ferrier who DID go on the AUOB march?

      Are you a troll, the very thing you’ve accused msot wingers of being?


      Are you, troll?

    496. schrodingers cat says:


      I’m a huge troll, but i dont work for mi5 or the britnat establishment. a bunch of incompetent tosspots, their 77th brigade the most useless of the lot going by quality of their trolls on here and twitter.

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