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Spilt black milk

Posted on May 07, 2019 by

Last week, Norway rubbed our faces in it again.

In just THREE MONTHS, the investment return alone from its national oil fund was around £64 billion – more money than the total annual budget of Scotland, including both Scottish Government spending and money spent by the UK “on our behalf”.

(If you click that link, you can see the value of the fund increase and – less frequently – decrease live in hypnotic real time. We watched it for a few minutes, during which time it added over 220m Krone, or around £20 million.)

That’s like making more from three months’ interest on your bank account than your yearly wage. It’s what Scotland could – would – have had if we’d been independent since the 1970s, because we’ve produced slightly more oil from the North Sea in that time than Norway has. We just gave all ours away.

But we know that that chance has been blown now, and rather than enjoy bountiful interest windfalls we make crippling interest payments on the UK’s debt, to the tune of around £3.5bn a year, while being told we’re scrounging subsidy junkies who should be grateful for having been relieved of the troublesome burden of our wealth.

None of this is any sort of new information, of course, but it doesn’t hurt to remind ourselves regularly of what being in the UK has cost us over the decades – and what it could cost us again in terms of the remaining oil and the potentially even greater resource of renewable energy that our naturally-blessed country sits amid – if we don’t have the courage to take responsibility for ourselves.

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  1. 07 05 19 12:56

    Spilt black milk | speymouth

392 to “Spilt black milk”

  1. Chas says:

    It’s extremely obvious to anyone who works in the oil industry just how much is generated for the uk treasury from it. And the sad truth is that an independent Scotland doesn’t need to be reliant on it. It is simply the 2″ thick icing on a very nice cake.

  2. John Lowe says:

    Norway gets £64 billion. What does the UK get more Foodbanks.

  3. bobajock says:

    Its not the oil (wish it was, it would be easy).

    Its the future, and Scotland needs one that does not have the cesspit called Westminster attached.

  4. Josef Ó Luain says:

    I regret now not asking those unionist protesters in George Square on Saturday what they thought about food-banks, homelessness, low wages and the near destruction of the Labour Movement in Scotland. Next time, instead of just photographing and being verbally abused by them, I’ll be asking questions.

  5. Auld Rock says:

    Aye, there’s never any pleasure in saying, “Well, we warned you,” but what makes it even more galling is that McCrone, Labour & Tories HID the facts from the Scottish people. An act in itself I would contend was just another breach of the ‘Treaty of Union, 1707’.

  6. June Maxwell says:

    On the recent march I witnessed courage by the truckload. But people need a hero to fall in behind, a charismatic, sock-it-to em hero. What we get are milquetoast, concilliatory platitudes, repeated ad nauseum. This never has been, never will be how liberty is won.

  7. Shug says:

    I look forward to call kaye making a story out of this
    Oh no its the bbc and not just any bbc but bbc scotland
    Whining whinging sycophancy on steroids

  8. Douglas says:

    Thanks for the ammunition always helpful.

  9. Mcdenster says:

    Put me on a right Danny Downer reading that. Just as well that Royal Wean popped oot to keep ma pecker up.

  10. Millsy says:

    ”Too wee , too poor , too stupid !”

    Well , now we know why we are ”too poor !”

  11. Dan says:

    Thanks for this one Stu. That is an excellent short, simple, and concise summary of the diabolical way the UK governments over the years have “managed” a resource which should have made life better for so many people.

    Obviously the climate implications of burning fossil fuels are becoming more recognised now (though Scottish oil is a mere drop in the ocean of what is being consumed in the global context).
    I guess under continued UK governance we can expect the same lacklustre management of the renewable energy sector too.
    Scotland really needs to break free from this union that has done and continues to do so little for our people.

    Being from an engineering background I worked in the oil industry for a short time when the West of Shetland development was starting with the Foinavon and Schiehallion fields.
    I’ve witnessed firsthand the incredible technical innovation and design that engineers are capable of. Ranging from electronic control pods packed with rows of delicate electronic cards controlling telemetry of data & mechanical control functions, to large wellhead systems enabling the management of multiple wells and FPSO connections.
    A quick google came up with the following article re. Foinavon which has a pic that will give an idea of how it all works.

    IIRC during my first trip offshore we were putting the very first of the infrastructure onto the sea bed which had to be extremely accurately positioned within tight tolerances so that all flowlines and control cables would connect up properly.

    Sometimes feel the politicians should step aside and let the engineers run the show…

  12. Robert Peffers says:

    As I pointed out in the last thread the disproportionate Scottish, (cough!), “contribution”, to the Westminster/United Kingdom economy is nothing new:-

  13. Sharny Dubs says:

    Squandered wealth on illegal wars and chasing a Tory fantasy utopia.

    Our turn is coming.

    The dream will never die.

  14. Dave tewart says:

    Do the arithmetic folks,
    This is their bank account returning in interest $10,000 a Quarter to each and every person living in Scotland IF we had put the oil money in a reserve.
    That is a projected income of $40THOUSAND a year for every person alive in Scotland.
    I’ve visited Norway, they are spending the capital as well by improving their standard of living and their infrastructure, for their future.
    Be thankful you onionists in Scotland that englandland has control of the spending.

  15. Iain mhor says:

    It is unfortunately, the reason why Scotland is not Independent, why it should be and why it will struggle to be. The burden of the black gold indeed.

    All the while, with every advance, another generation lives in fuel poverty, another generation has coats on the bed. All under the repeated mantra “it will be too cheap to meter”
    Oil, Gas, Hydro, Nuclear, Wind, Wave…
    When Scotland perfects Fusion reactors and the world rejoices – another generation of Scots will still sleep chittering under the jaikets. The eternal Union dividend.
    Aye, when shite is worth money, Scots will be born without arseholes right enough…

  16. Robert Peffers says:

    @Millsy says: 7 May, 2019 at 12:00 pm:

    ” … ”Too wee , too poor , too stupid !”
    Well , now we know why we are ”too poor !””

    True! Millsy, but we also know why we are too stupid.

  17. Liz g says:

    Their problem now is that while they hide the Scottish figures!
    They can’t hide Norway from us

  18. ScottieDog says:

    @Robert Peffers
    I often make the point about debt to folk rather than deficit.

    The U.K. govt balance sheet prior to the city banking crisis was around 0.4 trillion.
    A couple of years later it was in excess of £1 trillion.

    Persistent deficits that accrued that debt were absolutely no problem because it involved bailing out their pals in the city.

  19. Brian Powell says:

    Of course Labour in Scotland colluded wholeheartedly in the theft of all that wealth for the sake of failing across the UK and sometime high office in Westminster followed by sinecures in the HoLs.

    It suited their petty, small minded ambition to point to the Tories and say vote for us Scotland.

    They didn’t intend to do anything simply keep London Labour in power. This is highlighted in giant neon by Ian Davidson MP in Clydeside, who said that a clause should be in every defence contract so that if Scotland voted for independence then the RN ships being built on the Clyde should be cancelled.

    This was his own constituents who would lose their jobs.

  20. Robert Louis says:

    Want to know just how awful it is for a country to control its own oil reserves? Link below, scroll down to the first graph showing the historical growth in value of the Norwegian oil fund since 1998. (The graph is of course in BILLIONS of Norwegian Kroner).. This is what Westminster rule has stolen from Scotland.

    How dare they call us scroungers, or subsidy junkies. They should be down on their freaking knees begging forgiveness. This is what unionists in Scotland defend being stolen from Scots. And aye, it does make me b**** angry. And so it should.

    And of course, as above, the live fund value;

    1 Scots pound equals roughly 11.4 N kroner

  21. geeo says:

    Dan@12.09pm touched on climate change concerns re: fossil fuels, and how Scotland’s oil is not a huge proportion of global supply.

    Iceland have developed a new carbon capture method which turns CO2 into a new solid mineral rock at depths of one mile underground, which makes it unlikely to escape into the atmosphere.
    In Iceland, turning CO2 into rock could be a big breakthrough for carbon capture

    As an indy Scotland uses its oil revenues to transition into countrywide 100% renewable energy sources, carbon capture technology improvements means that we can ‘clean as we go’ until we are no longer reliant on oil for heating/energy needs.

    Scotland could actually be one of the 1st countries in the world who can afford to leave the oil in the ground going forward (Norway has great wealth via oil, but has more export limitations than Scotland, so may decide to extract for longer).

    Can you imagine it, Scotland leaving oil in the ground as WM set a new 95% tax level on all workers to enable MP’s to maintain a reasonable level of expenses and free lunches at WM, while the poor hunt each other for food.

    Utopian Scotland, Distopian England.

    No wonder they are desperate to hang onto our resources !

  22. Cubby says:

    This type of info should be a regular article on Wings IMO. Scotland is being ripped off, lied to, and its resources incompetently managed.

    We get foodbanks and royal babies instead of the revenues. Sadly some people in Scotland are happy with this as long as they can call themselves British Nationalists.

  23. Ian McCubbin says:

    It’s what frustrates the fuck out of me, and tae unionists who want us tae stay wi the shower of charlatans in West monster I try to quote this.
    They either don’t believe it or don’t want to know.

    We are closer now than ever.
    Let’s hope it works.

  24. Wullie says:

    Those who have cheated us and squandered our resources, those who have lied to us, those who have wantonly handed our wealth to another country, those who have ruined or shortened the
    Iives of many Scots. Those who have created such pain and anguish to the most vulnerable in our country. Those who in full knowledge of what was being done to Scotland and were in a position to enlighten our people and radically change the direction of our country but did not do so for their own selfish ends. When Scotland is independent and England has thrown you to the dogs. What then.

  25. Scottish Steve says:

    This depresses me. To think of all that wealth was squandered on Westminster’s tax cuts and vanity projects when it could have been used to better the lives of ordinary Scots.

    We cant change the past but we can change the future. I hope we do so by getting out of this wretched so-called union.

  26. Robert Kerr says:

    We have no Oil Fund

    The Brits pissed it against the wall.

    I wonder what McCrone feels like deep down.

  27. Abulhaq says:

    This week Boris Johnson will be coming among us at a do hosted by the tactile Ross Thomson. Doubtless the merits of the Union will figure.
    Now honestly, what would we want with a fancy sovereign wealth fund….we’d only squander it on major infrastructural projects.

  28. manandboy says:

    I can easily understand why successive Westminster governments keep quiet about this fabulous wealth in Scotland, all taken down to Westminster. But for the life of me, I cannot understand why the Leadership in the Scottish SNP Government seem almost to be in collusion with the UK Government, by similarly ignoring the oil issue.

    Tell the Scottish people about it, SNP, and update them every week.

  29. gus1940 says:

    Over and above the taxes on oil and gas extracted form Scottish Waters of which 100% has over the years has gone straight into WM’s coffers we have the Exploration and Production Licenses.

    Does any know how much WM has taken in Licensing Fees?

  30. Tackety Beets says:

    I’m sure Ken500 will drop past with a link?

    Let’s not forget the attrocious decision by Tony Blair NOT to make any UK investment in Carbon Capture in NE Scotland.

    I wonder where we would be had he decided to support the project ?

    Likewise, let’s not kid ourselves in any investment into Scotland direct from UK.
    Eg Rosyth/Davenport, our roads in north west is nearly all EU investment, etc etc

  31. Graham says:

    I wonder why we don’t have ‘the courage to take responsibility’? Are the Scots any less brave than other inhabitants on the planet? I certainly haven’t seen or heard any evidence to that effect. Must it then be something to do with our conditioning, I wonder? Has this idea of being too poor and too stupid actually sunk into our national consciousness, so that fear is the first reaction to any notion of self-determination? If so, I wonder how we break out of that mindset? Perhaps we should watch Julie Andrews come out of the convent singing ‘I have confidence’; or maybe go on a march along with over 100,000 others. Leastways, with near enough half the population coming to believe that our destiny lies in our hands and not others, we certainly seem to be on the right track. I just hope Chris Grayling and his ilk stay in charge of the train.

  32. Effijy says:

    For some of our Mad Unionists:
    Although an independent Scotland should have been even more
    Wealthy as we have produced more oil than Norway.

    Let’s be fair to unionist and say we have only $1,200,000,000,000 in a UK
    Oil fund and accept the UK has a total population around 12 times greater than Norway.
    That would give the UK £100 Billion oil reserve.

    The question to you Unionist is why has the UK not got this money
    But does have a near £2 Trillion debt.

    Illegal wars, Trident, Windrush payments, casino bank bail outs, sell off of UK
    Assets like Royal Mail to Tory Hedge fund mangers and just general Westminster corruption.

  33. mountain shadow says:

    Breaks your heart doesn’t it?

  34. Corrado Mella says:

    I wouldn’t mind the UK taking all the profits of the Scottish oil, if the fuckers hadn’t squandered them in interminable pointless wars to conquer more oil rich countries and squirreled it away in tax havens but redistributed them properly and fairly throughout the UK.

    The BritNazi Establishment sociopaths have nothing to show for four decades of oil instead.

    The UK is a desperately poor and unequal country, and the fault is at Westminster, Whitehall, Downing Street and Windsor Palace.

    It’s not too late to take the leeches off. It won’t be a land of milk and honey, but no doubts better than the shit we’re wading through now.

  35. Clootie says:

    Every time the sovereign weath fund of Norway is mentioned I flinch. It sums up London rule “live for today and our term in power”

  36. Liz g says:

    Well, just putting this out there.
    We haven’t yet got control of our oil and gas so even starting an oil fund is a wee while away.
    But we do have control of our Water and I’ve seen a thing or two about how Water is going to be more valuable than oil in the future.
    So my question would be… Why can’t we start the processes in anticipation of this now. To make sure we have a Water Fund,home grown workers who are skilled in this industry and that this resource is managed they way we would want it to be for future Scots?

  37. Cubby says:


    Like John Cleese with his don’t mention the war.

    In the UK we have two don’t mentions:

    1. Don’t mention oil revenues.

    2. Don’t mention the fact that if Scotland becomes independent the UK no longer exists.

  38. jfngw says:

    I think I remember a slogan from the seventies regarding the oil, not sure it was SNP or not, ‘Poor Britain’s, Rich Scots’. It now seems more a prophecy than a slogan.

    The inference at the time is it would be greedy of the Scots to take this for themselves, it seems the Scots agreed, then WM helped themselves to it and rebuilt London & the SE. Now after all this investment they tell the rest of the country they support us, and like donkeys some here still believe it.

  39. frogesque says:

    Has anyone fired the starting gun yet?

    ‘Cos all I heard was a popgun firing a crumbling cork and wimpy farts about online abuse from cybernats and the start time of a wee stroll
    L though Glasgow.

    Wake the fuck up, our oil, stolen, our parliament, being stolen and our voices, silenced. And all I hear is bitch and moan, snipe and snide.

    Wake the fuck up and realise being nice to the neighbourhood bully doesn’t work. Independence will NEVER be given to us, we have to take it, nurture it and enable it to grow to a mature Nation that ALL the world can point to and say,”Look! This is how it should be done!”

    Yes, I’m in a fucking fuckity fuck mood today. Losing patience with fair weather folk who can’t be bothered to get off their bahookies and get their hands dirty. We are not in a war but it is a bare knuckle fight to the finish and only one will be left standing.

    In best Loony Tunes parlance,”That’s all folks!”

  40. Craig P says:

    “and what it could cost us again”

    I don’t think there’s any ‘could’, stay in the union and it’s a racing certainty.

  41. Breeks says:

    Abulhaq says:
    7 May, 2019 at 1:11 pm
    This week Boris Johnson will be coming among us at a do hosted by the tactile Ross Thomson. Doubtless the merits of the Union will figure…

    Party for the Vote Leave Oil Thieves eh?

    Wonder if Ruth will be there to make sure Ross Thomson behaves himself and doesn’t steal anything. You know what these dreadful Scotch are like…

  42. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    The potential danger of such a “look back in regret” is that it can too easily encourage the “it’s all too late now” defeatist mentality that we have all encountered. It is an absolute scandal, and the most appropriate reaction is total outrage, but there’s no accounting for those who prefer the spurious comfort of unmitigated gloom.

    Better I think to look forward. As Liz g aptly points out, they can’t hide Norway. I’m thinking of a video or website presentation which is split screen, both sides showing current estimated reserves plus a counter ticking away showing accumulated revenue, one side representing Norway and the other representing Scotland. It shouldn’t take much viewing to convince any reasonable viewer of exactly what-is-what.

  43. Hello in Canada says:

    I’m a long-time lurker. I live abroad now so don’t have a say but still find myself desperately wanting Scottish independence to happen. Regarding oil and the direction of the indy debate in general, given the headlines about cybernats (and the known tactic whereby the media seeks to make the Yes side as unattractive a proposition for those on the fence), do you think it’s time to start looking ahead to an independent Sootland more than focusing on the media (a battle we will never win) – harnessing the collective talent within the Yes movement and turning it into an idea factory for how an independent Scotland could look?

    My feeling is one major newspaper could back indy if the focus moves away from focusing on media coverage and switching to positive stories. There is no doubt to me Scotland will be extremely successful as an independent country but clearly some are nervous about the idea, while being very open to it.

    I think the independent media can take on the task of envisioning that. I would compare it to the way we look ahead to a greener future – with mockups of greener cities, descriptions of how they will work, etc, etc. We paint a vision. I think doing that will also force the No side to try to do the same regarding the union, and we know that won’t be an easy task.

    We need to bring the idea of independence life and put positive images of it into people’s minds to get them excited about it again. Just combatting Project Fear II won’t work IMO.

    There have been great series of videos on other small nations and peoples journeys from no to yes. All of this needs to go onto one website under the banner of a proper campaign.

  44. Hello in Canada says:

    To clarify, I think there is still a place for the Wings fact-check. It’s essential reading for everyone interested in indy.

    I just think there also needs to be stories around how much oil we have, how much it would be worth and what it can be used for in an independent Scotland, not just complaining about UK actions over it or comparing us to Norway.

  45. Breastplate says:

    Robert J,
    that’s a great idea and would love to see it.
    The Unionists must hate it when Norway is mentioned.
    “..but look how much they’re taxed..whinge, moan, whine…”
    Norway? Don’t mention the oil, I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it” as Basil Fawlty might have said.

  46. stewartb says:

    gus1940 @ 1:16 pm

    Re – “Does any know how much WM has taken in Licensing Fees?”

    Check this out::

  47. Abulhaq says:

    @Robert J Sutherland
    Rather than defeatism this sort of stuff ought to make us BOIL WITH ANGER, all the better for the fighting adrenaline.

  48. mike cassidy says:

    And as I’ve pointed out before

    The ultimate irony is that Norway

    has started the slow process of disinvesting in the industry that enabled them to have the fund in the first place

    has started the no doubt painful political process of not pursuing fossil fuel wealth just because its there

    A similarly positioned Scotland could have been well on its way to building a serious renewable-energy infrastructure.

  49. Derek Rogers says:


    Notwithstanding all the fulminations and razzamatazz on this site over the three stooges’ appearance in Sunday’s Herald, those three guys do have a point. All paths to indy lead through a referendum: even UDI (or some variant thereof) will need to be ratified by a vote. It follows that our prime aim must be to win a vote, and that means bringing over to our side those who voted No in 2014. We’re not going to bring them over if we badmouth them all the time and squabble amongst ourselves; we need to talk softer, and sensibly.

    So I’m putting out the idea, for the Rev to consider, that these forums on Wings would benefit from a regime that promoted a quieter and more considered engagement with the issues. You can read the proposal here:

    and I’ve emailed Stu separately.

  50. Colin Alexander says:

    Nicola Sturgeon said we have a climate emergency.
    Renewables are the way ahead. The future is Green.
    Time to also vote Green.

    Tidal, hydro, solar, wind.

    “Denmark’s wind power revolution has been based upon public ownership and planned interventions but is neither a top-down state-driven process nor a grassroots achievement. Instead, it reflects the combination of grassroots social mobilization, state action and a diversified set of public ownership arrangements operating at different geographical scales. While it reflects some important historical and geographically specific factors, it also offers some important insights for developing more sustainable and democratically based forms of economy”.

  51. Artyhetty says:

    I can’t bare to read this, it’s too depressing.

    ‘Oh the oil’ said Britnat ‘better together’ dull as heck back in the 1950’s woman, in that dreadful video the Britnats made in 2014. As if it meant nothing, as if it should never be spoken of. No, not for you Scotland!

    I have said before, I have a book, called, Black and Green Gold’ by the Balmoral group, 2010, it is an insight into how the UKgov started to dismantle and tax to the hilt, the oil industry in Scottish waters. Heck they started dismantling viable fields! Anyone remember Cameron flying up to Shetland to fawn over the oil?

    The oil issue was used against Scotland, in 2014, it was used by the Britnats who fooled many into thinking it was worth nothing, and would somehow make Scotland very very poor should they vote yes to independence in 2014.

    I had labour voting pals say, ‘aye, but it’s dirty’. So it was ‘dirty’ if Scotland gained from any of the revenues, but not when their Labour party and succesive UKgov’s stole the lot, and worse, squandered the massive revenues, while keeping Scotland poor and begging. Others said, ‘aye, but it’s all gone hasn’t it’. Family in England, ‘aye but what would yous do withoot the oil now it’s all gone!’. Oh god, you could go stark raving mad with the ignorance of some people.

    It is dirty, and we see Greenpeace and others slagging the Scotgov if they dare mention Scotland’s oil in a positive light for our economy. But, as I think has been pointed out on WoS, not so long ago, though it brings in Billions, for England’s gain, it is a relatively tiny amount in worldwide oil extraction terms.

    IF Scotland had had, and could now have the revenues from oil in Scotland’s waters, it could be invested in renewables, in people, as they have done in Norway. It is not good stuff to burn at all, but the proceeds, massive, unimaginably massive, have been stolen and squandered by the elite in England’s government.

    Scotland’s abundant resources have been stolen, and are still being stolen.

    Oh and I recently discovered there is an ‘Oil shale’ museum in west Lothian, all about Scotland’s lucrative oil shale industry, which I am sure must have made Scotland very wealthy, not! There was an engineer, Robert MacClaurin I think was his name, who devised, no invented, a way to make energy out of coal, without ‘smelting it’ in other words, he invented clean energy. It was ignored of course.

    Don’t try googling him, nothing comes up but you can read about him on the Oil Shale museums website…it’s all very interesting. If you can’t find the site let me know, but it should come up if you type ‘Museum of the Scottish oil shale industry’.

    I guess it was as is now the case with Scotland’s resources, England’s oil shale industry in Scotland though.

  52. Anytime I mention Norway all I get is that a pint is £9.00. Sometimes I think we are too fuckin stupid.

  53. Allan Watson says:

    One of major factors in an independent Scotland is our assets. Our politicians talk happily about our farming, fishing, tourists industries etc but you NEVER hear them talking about our vast oil and gas resources.

    The tax take is massive therefor WHY are they not talking about this EVERY time they talk about independence.

    Its criminal.

    Sick about hearing on this site about AUOB and lying to the marchers. Like most people on this site I was there on Saturday. thoroughly enjoyed it and appreciate the amount of effort put in to make it happen. To those that criticise the organisers get of your arse and you do it.

    You will not beat the establishment by being nice.

  54. Robert Louis says:

    Manandboy at 113pm

    I agree. It should be a weekly fixture, called something like the Scottish government oil report. In which, the revenue will be listed, always ended with the fact that at present all of this wealth goes to London, and NOT Scotland. Just simple facts, i.e ‘this week xnumber BoE equivalent or whatever of crude oil were extracted, with revenue value of xxxxxxx Scottish pounds. Throughout, it should refer to oil in Scotland, or Scotland’s oil. At the very least, it would create an official record IN SCOTLAND, for all to see.

    Call it the Scottish Government oil report. Every week.

    To this day, many, many Scots still think their is no oil left, or it is ‘rubbish’ oil, or even worse that the money comes to Scotland. Some do not understand that the London government doesn’t sell the oil – the revenue is from taation of oil extraction and licenses. Each week, the Scottish government oil report, could explain how that works, and compare how poorly Scotland has been served by London mis-rule, and how none of the money comes to Scotland.

    They could do regular additional features highlighting Norway, or how Scottish control of oil, could allow us to eventually transition to a completely renewable economy in Scotland, with no further use for oil etc…

    Make it headline news. Irritate the hell out of Westminster. London likes to pretend that Scottish oil doesn’t even exist, whilst squandering it’s revenue on crossrail in London, for londoners – and they are already talking about a crossrail 2.

  55. Robert Louis says:

    Tree of liberty at 356pm

    Aye, heard that one, too freaking stupid for words. Norway the second richest country in the world.

    Anyway, beer prices around the world vary quite a lot, and Norway is NOT the most expensive, see;

    In dollars it is around the same as London.

  56. mike cassidy says:

    Artyhetty 3.29

    BBC produced a programme on this a few years back.

    Fascinating stuff, and an eyeopener for me at least.

    Sadly not available now.

    Even though it has a high rating on the IMDM site!

  57. msean says:

    And here’s what you could have won,Scotland…

    Crazy money.

  58. Cubby says:

    Tree of Liberty@3.56pm

    Heard that one myself a few times. It does show a lack of understanding of basic economics or an excuse not to face the truth.

    The correct response is that it is down to Norways currency being so hard relative to the pound. In the same way that drinks in Spain in the past were very cheap due to the varying strength of the currencies and the exchange rate that was created.

    As the UK pound continues to fall in value an independent Scotland’s pound would increase in value just like Norways currency.

  59. Jack Murphy says:

    Off Topic. This afternoon. BREXIT.

    ” The UK will have to fight European elections, despite hopes from the government a Brexit deal would be done by then, says the PM’s de facto deputy.

    The vote is due on 23 May, but Theresa May said the UK would not have to take part if MPs agreed a Brexit plan first.

    Now, David Lidington says “regrettably” it is “not going to be possible to finish that process” before the date the UK legally has to take part……….”

    BBC on-line:

  60. Cubby says:

    Derek Rogers@3.20pm

    Can I respectfully and in a very nice way point out to you that Scotland as one of the worlds oldest countries is signed up to a union and by definition it can leave the union but it cannot by definition do a UDI.

  61. I am not saying it has yet reached this point, but, in football terms, I fear there is a danger of, if not Nicola herself, certainly some in the SNP’s innermost party management group: “Losing the dressing room.”

    To explain to the non-football lovers among us, this is the point at which, no matter what a manager says or does, things don’t improve, the players have stopped listening.

    But, this is typically Scottish. AS I have said several times before, since the English are refusing to come out and fight, we are doing what the Scots always do – we have started fighting among ourselves. There is now a danger that May’s tactics of keeping-on kicking the Brexit can down the road will win, and we will not get the Independence referendum at the optimum time.

    Or maybe, we have “reached Derby,” victory is within our grasp, but, some at the top are shitting themselves at the prospect.

    I was willing to allow Nicola to wait and see, to hold fire until we knew what kind of Brexit we would get, from a bad one to a catastrophic one. But, within the limited time scale we have left, I fear we may run out of time to get Indyref 2 up and running, and Westminster will have time to further pochle things.

    When May goes, we might get somebody worse. I mean by that somebody competent, and able to unite the Toerags and change the rules to the extent we really are in Hotel California, able to check-out any time we like, but unable to leave.

    Really, the SNP Group at W4estminster should be doing everything in their power to derail things. How about for instance, insisting the Scottish Grand Committee has the right to scrutinise any agreement May brings forward after he talks with the Labour Party. The SG C rejects this, so they have to use the in-built English majority to defeat it – thereby showing those Scots outwith the Independence movement, we really are prisoners in an unfair Union.

    I do not think the SNP, as the Praetorian Guard of Independence, is doing enough. This is worrying.

    We will never have a better chance of freedom, if we blow this one, we are done for.

    If the Scots really are the lost tribe of Israel, we need a Moses figure, now.

  62. geeo says:

    The Tree of Liberty says:

    7 May, 2019 at 3:56 pm

    Anytime I mention Norway all I get is that a pint is £9.00. Sometimes I think we are too fuckin stupid

    At that point, remind them that even a McDonald’s/fast food worker on minimum wage, is earning £15/hour

    And average wages are highest in Europe.

  63. gus1940 says:


    Today’s’long read’ in The Guardian is a horrific history of the Chicago Meat Packing Industry and its atrocious exploitation of its workforce in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.

    It is a harrowing exposure of how things were and often still are in the so-called Land Of The Free and a warning of how The UK would be headed if The ERG and the rest of the loony wing of the Tories ever came to power.

  64. Glamaig says:

    Right theres an election coming up. Suddenly theres a lot of criticism of the SNP flying around from various quarters. Coincidence?

  65. Josef Ó Luain says:

    @ Derek Rodgers

    I don’t know what age you are, Derek, but I know that we’ve been nice for a hell of a long time and its got us absolutely nowhere.
    It’s only reasonable to speculate that, perhaps we’ve been too fucking nice!

  66. Elizabeth Stanley says:

    I’ll continue to vote SNP & ignore any hysteria from the msm.

    Can others check on Stuart’s twitter. He’s not posted at all today which is unusual.

  67. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cubby says: 7 May, 2019 at 4:42 pm:

    … pound continues to fall in value an independent Scotland’s pound would increase in value just like Norway’s currency.”

    Nah! Cubby, it won’t matter a damn what the English Pound does after the United Kingdom splits up – even if it starts to increase in value. I Scottish currency, even if it remains a Scottish pound sterling not tied to the English pound Sterling will be backed by an oil, gas and electricity economy and will shoot up dramatically. To the extent that Prof Gavin McCrone predicted, (in the McCrone report).

    An independent Scotland would find itself with exactly the same problem that Norway has. The Norwegian currency hardens so much that Norway has to ease it back down again by buying, (Usually Euros), that Norway doesn’t need for any other reason than to stop The Norwegian currency becoming over hard.

    So no matter what an independent Westminster does it will struggle. Put it this way – if you were a foreign power, or even a foreign business, and were looking for somewhere to invest your money in, would you choose to invest it, or set up a business in the failing English economy or in the rapidly increasing oil, gas and power backed Scottish economy that was actually prosperous enough to be able to do very well indeed on her other assets and manufacturing industries without the oil, gas and electricity?

  68. Robert Louis says:

    Spcrates Macsporran at 454pm,

    Yip. Good analysis. I too agree, that the SNP Westminster group should be going out of their way to derail and obstruct at every single turn. I thought after that time they walked out, that would happen, but seemingly, no. They ‘play nicely by the rules’.

    ‘nice’ will get you nowhere with westminster. Mr Salmond knew that.

  69. Oil prices are volatile,

    brent crude has been sold at $12pb (1976) to $111pb (2012),

    taken as a whole the average price since 1976 per year is $50pb,

    in 2018 life expectancy in Norway is male 80.6, female 84.3 ,

    in 2018 life expectancy in Scotland is male 77,female 81,

    over three years of Scottish citizens lives have been lost because we have had to live of Westminster handouts instead of using our own wealth to invest in all aspects of social care.

  70. Legerwood says:

    Glamaig says:
    7 May, 2019 at 5:04 pm
    Right theres an election coming up. Suddenly theres a lot of criticism of the SNP flying around from various quarters. Coincidence?””

    No. Time and time again the MSM, and others, set the hare running and SNP/pro-indy supporters take the bait and go coursing after it. Sunday’s article in the Herald being an example.

    You would think by now people would recognise the obvious ‘hares’ and leave them alone but no, of they go.

    If, as has been reported today, the EU elections do go ahead then it is an obvious opportunity to demonstrate via the ballot box how high the support is for the SNP, and by extension, independence.

    But given the reaction to the the article on Sunday and the obvious manipulation on the part of the Herald to get that reaction, and there will be more instances in the coming weeks, then I am afraid that people are going to bottle it again as they did in 2017.

  71. Not Convinced says:

    Clearly it’s time for Westminster to generously extend the Norwegians the benevolent good government that London is so renowned for? The Norwegians would be relieved of the burdens of both self-government and having to manage such an amazing large sovereign wealth fund[1], and I’m sure those good and honest folks down in Westminster would continue to allow them a modest amount of local self-government?

    After all, all Westminster would have to do would be to point to the happy prosperous states that Wales, Scotland & N.Ireland find themselves in and the Norwegians will be beating a path to the door shouting “please take our money!”.

    [1] Actually it’s a pair of sovereign wealth funds I believe? But let’s not quibble over the details!

  72. jfngw says:

    Even more surprising that Norway achieved this without the broad shoulders of Westminster to support them, it’s almost unfathomable.

    We’ve not been lied to have we????

  73. jfngw says:

    Spotted this on twitter_

    Theresa May’s spokesman says the local election results “have given added impotence… ”

    So it looks like they are moving to a flaccid Brexit position.

  74. Robert Peffers says:

    O/T:Without comment:-

  75. Ottomanboi says:

    There is no equivalent of this in Norway.
    Naturally, it’s all Scotland’s fault.

  76. Juteman says:

    I don’t comment these days, but was a regular once. I still read Wings every day.
    The comments now seem to be so full of obvious unionist plants, that it must be a concerted campaign from the British State to undermine this blog.

  77. call me dave says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Thanks for that link. 🙂

    Ex Regio oil!

    Remember this thread:

  78. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Yo, Juteman!

    *high five*


  79. Colin Alexander says:

    Socrates MacSporran

    You suggest we need a Moses?

    Moses led the ancient Israelites in the wilderness for 40 years. He never reached the promised land. (It was Joshua who led the Israelites to the promised land).

    I think Scotland already has a Moses: Nicola Sturgeon.

    Our wilderness is devolution Scotland. 20 years and counting.

  80. Juteman says:

    High five back Ian. :~)

  81. Famous15 says:


    It is in our grasp. Better to stay nice but if you cannot get out and bellow to the moon.

  82. Mad Unionist says:

    We would all be living in luxury detached homes with Philipino servants if we controlled the oil revenue. Three cars per family. No need to work for a living. Then the oil runs out. The oil formed over millions of years only for the English to steal it from what God gave to the Scots who happened to be around when it was discovered.

  83. Colin Alexander says:

    Norway ruled by Denmark, then Sweden, by shared monarchs.

    Sound familiar?

    Now the similarities end:

    How did Norway obtain independence?

    Their parliament voted to dissolve the Union with The Kingdom of Sweden and declared independence. Later confirmed by a plebiscite election.

    Could you see MSPs doing that at Holyrood?

    Too well rewarded by their imperial masters to do that.

  84. Lenny Hartley says:

    Wgd hits rhe spot, i agree with every word he says , im , getting totally scunnered with the SNP leadership and folk lke Smith, Robertson et al.

  85. Famous15 says:

    So a retreat on air passenger duty for Scotland at the edge of Europe. It is arguable that Scotland could easily offset any flight increases and still make economic sense. We cannot so easily give in to the Greens. I have children who need jobs.

    My next big fear is a retreat on Coul Links at Embo. Caithness and Sutherland should be natural SNP territory but it aint. East Sutherland needs jobs for its young people it does not need more “rare” nonexistent flies. A tourist golf trail in East Sutherland brings in the rest of the family to boost tourism for most of the year. Let us try enlightened self interest. SNP hierarchy needs to listen to the grassroots.

    SNP,SNP will continue to be my vote!

  86. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Alexander says: 7 May, 2019 at 7:43 pm:

    ” … Could you see MSPs doing that at Holyrood?”

    Of course not. There’s far too many of the people of Scotland, like you, who are anti-FM/anti-SG and anti-SNP who would rather see Scotland in bondage to a foreign country than see the SNP succeed.

    Scotland’s burden is too many extreme right wing and extreme left wing nutters who really do not want independence for their own fanatical political views.

    No other political party than the SNP has a hope in hell of winning independence but we will get there not because pf you but in spite of you.

  87. Abulhaq says:

    There is much to admire, and be jealous of, regarding Norway and its management of its oil resource sadly however, like most Scandinavians, they are anglophiles with little interest or understanding of Scotland, its culture and history and its quasi-colonial relationship with England.
    They regard the Scottish nationalism as something of a regional ‘grumble’. Given the influence of anglophone media it is not surprising they have this parochial, ‘metropolitan’ English perspective of our independence movement.
    Should we care? I have found more understanding and interest among Algerians, Egyptians and Iraqis, not to mention Germans, French, Italians, Greeks and Argentinians. The world is bigger than Scandinavia, we got loads of sympathetic friends. Global Scotland….may it be soon.

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  89. ScottieDog says:


    There’s a shed loads of work to be done in Scotland without fouling up the skies any more, plenty work out there for our kids.
    P.s I work in aviation.

  90. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert Peffers

    You are entitled to your opinions, Robert, even when you are talking mince.

    I support independence for Scotland.

    I don’t support administrators of the Union, who try to make this rotten Union more palatable to Scotland. I don’t support their British People’s Vote so England decides again and Scotland obeys on bended knees.

    I don’t want to support a party who wants to reform Westminster to make the iniquitous, unequal, unfair, undemocratic Union more MP friendly for themselves and their Union MP chums.

    If Holyrood won’t deliver another indyref or plebiscite election on independence it is nothing more than a sham of democracy.

    It has already been shown to be a sham of democracy when the unelected House of Lords were allowed to overrule our democratically elected representatives over the Continuity Bill and Brexit power grab.

    Shame on all MSPs who accepted that: Tory, Labour, Green, LibDem, independent and no party affiliation. Shame on the Scottish MPs who also accepted that.

    Unionist or pro-independence: none of them should have accepted the unelected and undemocratic Lords dictating terms to the people of Scotland.

  91. jfngw says:


    I think this was a tactical retreat on air passenger duty, the Greens, Labour and I suspect the LibDem’s were planning to vote against any proposals. That would have left the SNP relying on the Tories to make any changes. It would have a PR disaster with the MSM rounding on the SNP.

    Rep Scot gave the hint with the little ‘under Labour pressure’. This has always been an issue for the Greens then Labour just spotted the bandwagon and the BBC duly obliged them with the credit.

  92. Dr Jim says:

    Spain has festivals where people set things on fire or have bulls running through the streets
    In Orkney even they have the Norsemen march with fire and weapons
    Countries all over the world have huge gatherings for example *the day of the dead* with effigys fire and scary but fun stuff
    India is known for demonstrations of all sorts, remember Gandhi, and who caused the trouble around him (The British Nationalists)

    The Independence movement for Scotland the proven most peaceful marchers that have ever been in history are constantly undermined under reported, wrongly reported and now even attempts to put an end to them because *reasons*

    Who do you think is behind removing the gloss and causing the dampener on the Independence march that just went on with once again no trouble by any marchers anytime, and who do you think organised the timing of peoples dissapointment after the march with newspaper articles and TV and an arrest of the organiser because those same powers once again tried to change the rules to create a situation where the organiser felt forced to bend the newly reorganised rules that were invented to cause him no other option but to break those new rules

    So all the Independence folk who are now arguing with each other have just been played and are still being played by those same people and then leave it all to their mixers and online troll types to keep rubbing in the dissapointment but all the while making sure what you’re not talking about how successful the march was and how the Independence movement is growing, they’re making you doubt, they’re making you turn away from the political party that got you here using every snidey trick in the book

    How many times have we seen since the weekend *Oh I’m an Independence supporter but the SNP are rubbish so I’m leaving*

    So who do you think is behind all of your discontent this week……well?

    Not Gandhi is it

  93. Colin Alexander @ 7.11pm

    Actually, if we are going to argue about a Scottish Moses, Wee Eck was closer to the role than Nicola.

  94. Dr Jim says:

    Everything that runs the *British Empire* is centralised in London

    So then why would there be MI5 offices in Glasgow next door to the BBC

    Use the heid folks

  95. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Alexander says: 7 May, 2019 at 8:45 pm:

    ” … You are entitled to your opinions, Robert, even when you are talking mince.”

    Well, Colin, it is like this, it is your opinion that I’m talking mince just as it is my opinion that you are anti-FM, anti-SG and anti-SNP/ Thing is there is more than ample proof that you are indeed ant-FM, Anti-SG and anti-SNP.

    A scan through any topic here on Wings where you have commented is more than ample proof of that fact. Not only that but in spite of asking you why you find it necessary to post such bitter opposition to the only hope that Scotland has to become independence on an open forum where it must be very obvious doing so harms the cause of independence you persist in doing so.

    Even posting links to the email addresses of those you oppose does nothing to stop you harming the movement. Now, Colin, make ne mistake, I do not blindly accept everything the FM/SG/SNP does or says but I would never air my opposition on an open forum but instead complain or criticise where it may do some good – directly at whoever I think is doing things wrongly.

    ” … I support independence for Scotland.”

    Well not only could you have fooled me on that score but you sure as hell have a strange way of showing it.

    ” … I don’t want to support a party who wants to reform Westminster to make the iniquitous, unequal, unfair, undemocratic Union more MP friendly for themselves and their Union MP chums.”

    You are not making any sense there, Colin – who is it you are referring to?

    ” … If Holyrood won’t deliver another indyref or plebiscite election on independence it is nothing more than a sham of democracy.”

    That is downright daft. Who said, “Holyrood won’t deliver another indyref or plebiscite election on independence”?

    Oh! Wait up! That’d be you – for I cannot recall either the FM, SG or SNP saying it. Do you perhaps mean, “If they won’t deliver these things exactly when Coin Alexander demands them”? That seem to be the case from where I’m standing, but hang on a moment and consider this.

    Who is it that are more likely to have the most up to date information of how things actually stand – Colin Alexander on his own or the entire SNP organisation – many of whom are right at the cutting edge and full time employed to be so?

    I’m an old guy who has been involved in the indy movement since it was four men and a collie dug and I cannot envisage a worse thing than the FM calling an indy ref – and losing it. If Nicola is not calling a referendum I’d stake every penny I have that the inside information is that it would be lost or at least far too close to call.

    Then we have the daft idea the elected to Westminster Scots MPs are just too comfortable and don’t want independence. Your daft claims they shouldn’t be doing anything they can that will benefit Scots and Scotland obviously cannot see that not only do they represent ALL the electorate in their own constituencies but everyone in Scotland whether they voted for them or not.

    It is their sworn duty to do so and, just think about it for a moment, what chance do the MPs or MSPs have of converting those who voted against them to voting SNP if the voter perceives them as not working on their behalf?

    There are a whole load of No to Yes videos made and virtually all of them state that they changed because the saw that the SNP had the converted yesser’s best interests at heart. It is the main reason for them changing to YES. Yet here you are saying you want the FM, SG and SNP to act against those who previously voted against them.

    ” … Shame on all MSPs who accepted that: Tory, Labour, Green, LibDem, independent and no party affiliation. Shame on the Scottish MPs who also accepted that.”

    Oh! For the love of Pete that one really takes the whole tin of biscuits. What is it you imagine those SNP MPs were to do? Did you expect them to go in the huff and walk out of the Commons and go home because they were outvoted? What bloody good would that have done?

  96. Sarah says:

    @Ronnie Anderson – see over on O/T, please.

  97. McDuff says:

    Why does the SNP not highlight articles like this and let Scots realise what we could have been if Westminster had not lied about the wealth in our seas which they systematically stole.
    I believe Nicola Sturgeon has no appetite for independence and is terrified at the prospect dealing with the logistics of separation.
    She has no passion and no plan.
    I look at Scotland and Norway and it makes me sick.

  98. Albaman says:

    Interesting topic, and comments, but I’ll give it a pass, this time cause it makes me so angry,
    O.T. just watched B.B.C. Scotland’s Debate Night” on catch-up, once again the B.B.C. Scotland, has the panel stacked so that theUnionist parties have 4 to 1 against the S.N.P. representative.
    The Conservative was allowed to actually lie, and get away with a very selective opinion regarding a Pole on independence.
    Do these thing matter?, of course they do, the wider viewing public will soak the misinformation like a sponge, without realising it is misinformation.
    Rant definitely not over !!.

  99. Simon Curran says:

    Excellent article. Forget whatever happens with Brexit this is one of the main planks for Scotland’s independence, the economic argument. A country rich in oil and natural and human resources but underdeveloped and with swathes of poverty and growing numbers of food banks. Add to that the demographic argument that Scotland’s population has aged and barely increased. Add to that the democratic deficit where Scotland is ruled over time and time again by a party she rejected. How much more will it take, how much more obvious does it have to be for some people?

  100. cirsium says:

    @Hello in Canada, 3.01

    Prof John Robertson already does some of that. Have a look at his website

  101. cassandra says:

    @Juteman 6.59 pm

    No there are not more Unionist plants, there are more independence supporters voicing criticism of the strategy and direction of the SNP which is not the same thing.

    However, rather than acknowledge the legitimacy of the criticism – even after this weekend’s horror show – many SNP diehards still have their fingers in their ears and their blindfolds on.

    The problem is that if you voice any criticism here you are immediately labelled a Unionist plant because those defending the SNP stance cannot argue the points. So they double down and hysterically point the finger.

    Basically if you deviate from a set of agreed terms and viewpoints with any of them or even use words they consider ‘wrongthink’ they accuse and abuse.

    It becomes easier to ridicule and mock them as they cannot argue their point. It makes you wonder how on earth they get on IRL, if they scream abuse at anyone who equivocates or questions the SNP on the doorstep or on a stall.

    There is a disorder called ‘folie a deux’ where a dominant individual creates a suspicious and isolating atmosphere and influences those around. It can descend into psychosis. When more than two are ‘involved it is ‘folie a plusiers’.

    The dominant voice on here decided a while back that dissenters were to to be mistrusted and from there the paranoia set in. Other previously sensible people have now become infected with the madness and now no-one is trusted if they voice a different opinion. There have been attempts to be reasonable and engage but there are a couple of individuals who attack posters no matter what they say, no matter how often they try to make the peace. The atmosphere is poisonous and the main offenders think they are always in the right.

    People will still read the articles but BTL is a circus of misinformation and paranoia. All very sad.

  102. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    McDuff at 10.35

    Utter shite. Another troll exposes itself.

  103. Capella says:

    Hi Juteman – we’re all still here. Fasten your seatbelt because it’s definitely a bumpy ride. There are many unionist concern trolls infecting the site ATM. That indicates that the end times are here.

    But keep calm and carry on. The internet is a very transient experience. A few days later and the theme has utterly transformed.

    For everyone worrying about “leadership”. There is no leadership. It’s up to all of us to influence as many voters as we can. Vote SNP/SNP. It’s the only route to independence. Ignore the siren calls of the unionists. They will fade away very soon, consumed on the bonfire of BREXIT.

  104. mike cassidy says:

    Food for thought.

    In April it is estimated that for the first time

    The USA produced more energy from renewables than coal.

    Soon, renewables will be outcompeting every other energy source, and they will become the only energy source in a few decades.

  105. mike cassidy says:

    By the way

    Its not necessarily old age that will prevent many seeing Scotland become an independent nation again.

    Sweet dreams!

    Iran and the US are inching toward war

  106. yesindyref2 says:

    This is funny:

    Fran Fae Fife
    ? @FranFaeFife

    Oh FFS, @theSNP, Scottish Greens, @NeilMacKay and RISE types, why can’t you just accept that Scottish twitter actually likes @WingsScotland more than they like you? He’s much more interesting and compelling than you are, even if he *is* rude from time to time. Get over it. FS.

  107. Capella says:

    @ yesindyref2 – yes I saw that tweet. So true! People who shun WoS because “language” must have been deprived children IMO.

  108. McDuff says:

    Dave McEwan Hill
    How articulate.
    Here we go again , any and I mean any criticism of Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP and we are all trolls.
    As I have said on this site before I have been an independence supporter for over forty years and a member of the SNP for nearly the same and over that time I have both criticized and praised the party as is my right.
    So I don’t need some arrogant individual to lecture me as to what I can say providing it meets with your approval. Its so called indy supporters like you who hinder our cause with your slavish adoration of everything the SNP says or does.
    Are the members at conference who voted against the SNP`s currency plan trolls?

  109. Derek Rogers says:

    Cubby @ 4:47 pm

    Derek Rogers@3.20pm

    Can I respectfully and in a very nice way point out to you that Scotland as one of the worlds oldest countries is signed up to a union and by definition it can leave the union but it cannot by definition do a UDI.


    Under the rules I’m proposing, your post would be disallowed because it does not address the substantive point, which is how we win a referendum.

  110. Derek Rogers says:

    Josef Ó Luain @ 5:17 pm

    @ Derek Ro[d]gers [@ 3.20pm]

    I don’t know what age you are, Derek, but I know that we’ve been nice for a hell of a long time and its got us absolutely nowhere.
    It’s only reasonable to speculate that, perhaps we’ve been too fucking nice!


    Your reference to my age would be disallowed under my proposed rules (‘playing the man, not the ball’). ‘Hell of’ would be marginal for foul language, and the expletive at the end would have to go.

    I’ll treat our comment as though you’ve done that, and respond. Niceness hasn’t got us ‘absolutely nowhere’: we’ve acquired a Scottish Parliament, put in place a highly competent administration, and struck the fear of God into our opponents. And where are you going to go with your not-niceness? – punch Theresa May on the nose and tell her she must make us independent or, er, something? Join the nutters at the side of George Square last Sunday? A new country needs friends abroad or it’s dead, and a reasonable relationship with its former hegemon. What’s your not-nice plan for achieving that, and for winning a referendum?

  111. Robert Peffers says:

    @McDuff says: 7 May, 2019 at 10:35 pm:

    ” … She has no passion and no plan.”

    So when did you take up mind reading, McDuff?

    What utter claptrap. Nicola Sturgeon has been in the SNP since she was a teenager. She is a qualified lawyer and thus could have been earning far more at that profession than as an elected MP or MSP and probably more than being the FM.

    She is a dedicated independence supporter and how the hell would you know if she has a plan or not?

    In any case if you were a fraction as clever as you perceive yourself to be you would know that the FM is the leader of the Scottish Government and in that capacity she is sworn to work for the benefit of all the people of Scotland and not just those who voted SNP. In point of fact the FM is elected by all MSPs of all parties not like at Westminster where the Prime Minister is legally chosen by the Queen of England but in practice the Queen is, “advised”, by the Privy Council and is usually the leader of the party with the most MPs in an election.

    However, Nicola has two jobs as she was elected by the SNP as Leader of the Party. So, as FM she has teams of Scottish Government legal advisors and as Leader of the SNP has the SNP’s legal teams not to mention that the SNP has many MPs, MSPs and Councillors who are qualified Lawyers not only that but Joanne Cherry is a Queens Council and here’s you not only reading her mind and deciding she has no plan but having the temerity to claim you know better that those professionals who work full time at politics.

    In any case the leaders of the SNP do not dictate SNP policy. The only way SNP policy can be made, changed or dropped is by the delegates sent by branches to National Conference.

    If I am to choose who I believe best qualified to know best how to gain independence I can categorically state it will not be McDuff.

  112. Cubby says:

    Derek Rogers@11.44pm

    I guess this post would not be allowed under your rules either. Never mind I’ll continue anyway since at present your rules do not apply. Now I am trying really hard to be nice to people even when they spout nonsense, get things wrong or just lie and aim to deceive. Now I provided you with some factual information and you are not nice enough to treat it with respect. You Derek are not being very nice.

    Derek your post is pretty rude and full of self delusion. Couldn’t think of a way to say it any nicer.

  113. Dr Jim says:

    If the SNP have a plan I demand to know what it is or, or eh, well, they better have a plan because I’ve got a plan, well I don’t but if I did I’d tell everybody wouldn’t I, Oh well maybe that wouldn’t be a good idea, but still I demand somebody tell me something or I’ll listen to oher people who don’t have a plan, I’m totally frustrated

    Ah well see now you’re getting somewhere in understanding why nobody is going to tell you anything because the world has big ears and big mouths
    Would you tell the local burglar what time you were going to the shops

    It seems as though some people would then complain when they were robbed

    The dissenters play their game and call it legitimate criticism and laugh if you’re daft enough to fall for it

    The British government have MI5 GCHQ The 77th every other political party every newspaper every TV company every *journalist* the Orange Lodge the Loyal loonies, you name it they’ve bought and paid for it

    Yet some folk think the SNP should just *dae sumthin* then say it out loud for all to hear and blab which then allows the *British* to put in place methods to stop the SNP plans which everybody will then say, the SNP should’ve kept their plans a secret

    Christ it’s like trying to teach a dug no tae shake when it’s wet

  114. Robert Peffers says:

    @cassandra says: 7 May, 2019 at 10:50 pm:

    ” … No there are not more Unionist plants, there are more independence supporters voicing criticism of the strategy and direction of the SNP which is not the same thing.”

    … and you know this because … ?

    You are waffling as usual and you always do your very best for the union by voicing and form of criticism against the only government and party that will gain independence. Here’s a straight fact. Before the YES movement began it was the SNP and their membership that brought Scotland lose to independence.

    The YES movement only began after we were nearly there already and AUOB came later still. Thus neither the YES Movement and AUOB really only started up after the SNP got within touching distance.

    What is more there is absolutely no doubt that those who stir up discontent by comments on open forums do so with the express motive to harm the independence movement.

    It doesn’t require a large intellect to work out that if you want to complain about Nicola Sturgeon the best way to do s is either by contacting her directly, contacting the SG directly or contacting the SNP directly.

    Let me put it this way for you – if you bought an item of clothing from a supermarket and it was defective would you complain on an open forum on the internet or at the supermarket’s customer desk? Which method would you think would be most likely to have the item replaced or your money back?

    Furthermore you, in particular, are among the most pernicious offenders. What is your REAL motive, Cassandra? Furthermore why post with a nom de guerre? Why not post under your own name? What are you trying to hide?

    I’m me and I post as me and I’m not shy to say where I live and it’s a fairly small village. Anyone determined to find me could do so fairly easy.

  115. yesindyref2 says:

    So years ago I bought a shirt at Marks and Sparks as I was working away and hadn’t had enough time to do my washing that weekend, put it on next day and went to work. Only to find it wasn’t stitched at the seam at all (I’m not a great morning person so hadn’t noticed).

    So off I went lunchtime to get the shirt swapped, only to be told I’d have to take it home, wash it, and bring it in to get a refund or replacement. Clearly this wasn’t good enough, so with people in the shop and luckily possessing a very loud, very very loud non-shouting voice when required I said:

    So you have sold me a shirt with no seam at all and expect me to wear it at work all day long and wash it and return it to you next day, when you have sold ne totally faulty goods? No [taking off shirt in public] I’ll buy a new shirt and change into it right here.“.

    The manager came rushing over begging me to take a new shirt and change in a private room.

    The moral of the story is – don’t follow THEIR rules if you want to get results rather than a hernia.

  116. Mad Unionist says:

    Dr Jim @ 9:36pm 7 MAY 2019. MI5 have a location in Dundee, there must be a threat. The Muslim members of the suicide Brigade of the Orange Order are numerous in that area.

  117. Breeks says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    7 May, 2019 at 11:54 pm

    She is a dedicated independence supporter and how the hell would you know if she has a plan or not?

    And where the fk is there ANY leadership in that Robert?

    It’s the same tepid impotence and indecision which spawns desperate frustration and exasperation of the exact same nature as that which allowed Farage and UKIP to fillet the Tories, who had paralysed themselves with indolent indifference towards Europe the way the SNP has frozen itself in the headlights of Indy. The Tories misread the signs badly, and we got Farage and Brexit as a result. I firmly believe the SNP are misreading the signs right now.

    People want progress on Indy; material, meaningful progress. Instead we get Pete Wishart planning to stay in Westminster for the long haul, a coordinated attack on Cybernats by SNP voices through the BritNat media, stealing the thunder of another AUOB triumph in Glasgow, and when folks like Peter Bell or Craig Murray dare to suggest we have perhaps missed a turn and lost our way, they are pilloried for it by the SNP attack dogs.

    Right now, if YES decided to politicise itself and formally evolve into a political party, I promise you, not only would it be guaranteed my vote but I would consider such a development to be an absolute godsend for Scotland and our chances at Independrnce.

    How about that for poll question Rev Stu? Should YES become a political party?

    And to all those who’ll smear me as a troll, and not a real Indy supporter, I would also warn them that being considered a troll by the SNP increasingly seems less and less of a stigma in direct correlation to the SNP being more and more of a damp squib.

    The SNP has all but squandered Brexit. Instead of destroying Brexit as the BritNat assault upon Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, and an irrevocable breach and betrayal of the articles of Union, the SNP has addressed Brexit as if it has been a troublesome distraction and a bothersome detour to be negotiated first BEFORE minds can be focussed on Independence. Brexit will have come and gone, and only then, is it back to SNP business as usual on Indy, as if 2016 never happened.

    That’s not leadership either Robert Peffers. That’s supine acquiescence to Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation when presented with an open goal to secure our Independence. That’s not trolling either, it’s fact.

  118. Ken500 says:

    The SNP were calling out the diffidence of the Oil revences being taken out of Scotland by Thatcher in the 1980’s. The SNP were branded weirdo, and fools by M15 etc. Alex Salmond et al. Were branded as trouble maker and ridiculed as lying. The Oil revenues were being taken illegally and secretly by Thatcher etc..The SNP members were mocked by the British Press and Givernment.

    Labour was voted as the mainstay to keep the Tories out because of what Thatcher etc. was doing to Scotland. Destroying the Scottish economy and taking all the Oil revenues south to build up London S/E so they could win votes for the Tories. Fund the bankers who fund the Tories party. The North/South divide,

    The unionists take from the North to give to the South. Empoverishing the north and enrich the south for votes there. There are more votes in the South (pro rata) The Tories were funding the banking crash with public money by not keeping higher collateral demands on the banking system. Keeping better reserves. People were borrowing too much which many could not pay back without difficulties. There was total lack of diligence.

    Gordon Browm. He had no idea of banking but would not take expert advice. The collateral of how much money should be kept in reserves. It was 25% worldwide. US/UK world Gov/banker took it down to 13% half. That caused the bank crash. There was a run in the banks of peopke trying to get their money back. The Govs had to bail out the banks.

    North/South divide. The impoverished Scotland and the North. The Scottish Office colluding with the Unionist to deprive Scotland. There were not open Gov accounts.on the internet. 1980’s No one knew what the UK Gov was doing.. No separate accounts for Scotland from the rest of the UK. Westminster said it was immposiblrv to separate the accounts.

    Computers were just being brought in. 1980’s A click on a computers. Computers now coming into play, New budget technology techniques were being introduced which could comply separate programmes of accounting methods,

    The Barnett Formula was intoduced by Ian Lang so!Thatcher could offshore the Oil revenues take it illegally and secretly to fund London S/E and the bankers (who fund the Tory Party). In order to get votes to keep her in power. ‘This must be keot secret’ on the documents. Written by Thatcher on the documents. It was kept secret. Thatcher shut down every facility for jobs. Van manufacture. the smelter. Decommissioning now has to go to Turkey because there is not smelter in Scotland to recycle the steel.

    The decommissioning breakdown is done in Scotland (Dundee docks etc) A large facilities. It could be bigger if there was a smelter to melt down and recycle the steel. Decommissioning is worth £1Billion+ a year. More economical extraction methods are being introduce. Giant movable barges. Syphons up the Oil separates the Gas. Going back to how the Oil was extracted and taken to shore in massive maritime vessels, The merchant navy msssive tankers transported the Oil worldwide. Merchant Nsvy was a large employer of seamen. Now foreign vessels. Still needs a master and a lst mate. Scotland is a marine nation.

    Until Devolution there was little knowledge if Scotland worth. The accounts were was kept hidden. Now the SNP Gov publish not complete accounts (not available ftom UK Gov) but a incomplete assessment of how Scotland is doing. This is the first time this has happened. The Scottish accounts were keot hidden, secretly by unionists politician and lied about for years. The McCrone Report. Discover by the SNP Alex Salmond.

    For years Westminstrt Unionis claimed it was not possible to complied separate accounts. That is how they were able to take the Oil revenues. They surpressed the infornation and said Scotland was subsidised because they withheld the Oil revenues and the full statistics and value of the Oil revenues. Deliberately left Scotland impoverished. Thatcher. Unemployment 20%. NI (Troubles) Scotland 15%. The only place unemployment was lower than 10% was London. S/E (subsidies). Interest rates were up to 18%. Inflation was up to 25%.

    Thatcher sold of utilities,deregulated world banking bad cause the banking crash. Girdon Brown thought if interest rates were kept at 5% it abolished ‘boom and bust’. It did not. Interest rates are put up to try and stop people borrowing too much. Money which they can’t pay back. Bank/ers were lending people too much loans. Loans they would not be able to pay back. The monies were over borrowed in London S/E and the Midlands. Indirectly by the Oil revenue. Given to the bankers by the UK Treasurery. To lend. ‘Care in the communuty’ Prison. Essential services cut.

    The SNP knew the value of the Oil revenues. Alex Salmond had been a Oil accountant at the RBS he knew the figures and the vast amount of revenues being produced. When the SNP told people. The UK Gov played down the figures and still claimed Scotland was subsidised A lie. So Scotland still voted Labour. To keep the Tories out. For their mismanage. The SNP were discredited by Westminster unionists lies Deliberately not investing in the North or Scotland because they knew they did not need the votes from Scotland to succeed in Westminster majority.

    Now the SNP are winning after Devolution, They are showing how competent they are in managing the Scottish economy and accounts. Funding essential services and major projects. Scotland is doing better. Much better off. Especially than before. A different place the vast improvements. The unionist politicians are just trying to ruin it. There are now published Gov accounts on the internet which can be accessed. Not complete but they give a guide to how Scotlabd could/would be better run Independent.

    How the monies raised could be better. Spent. How the people in Scotland want it better spent to aid the economy, The decisions made in Scotland make more sense. That is self determination. A Democracy. Scotland would be £20Billion better off. Scotland raises £60Billion in tax revenues. Diffentky managed from Westminster ie SNP policies in Scotland would be £20Billion better off. £60Billion + £20Billion. == £80Billion Same as Norway. Norway raises £80Billion in tax revenues a year. Scotland could raise the same with self governance. Different economies but the same amount revenues raised,

    Norway gov makes alcohol prices higher to stop peopke drinking too much and destoying their health. Scandinavian countries keep alcohol prices higher for health reasons. It works. They promote healthy diet. It works in improving health.

    Norway has average higher wages. Double that of the UK. They have higher disposable income (money left) even paying higher taxes. Higher wages (proportion) higher taxes but still left with a higher disposable income.Better off. Higher wages covers the cuts of higher taxes. Still leaves people better off by comparison with other countries, Double the wages. Slightly higher taxes but better essential services. People are still left better off by comparison with other counties/economies, Retain more disposable income.

    Kroner is strong currency. Visitors get little amounts by exchange rates, it appears to be an more expensive cost of living but only for visitors. Who get a lower amount of monies in exchange. Oman is the same, it is because of the exchange rates of each countries. It is not expensive for people who live or are paid there by comparison. It is foreign visitors who find it more expensive. The people’s in the countries can be much better off.

    With countries like Thailand/Asia the exchange favours visitors. The visitor gets more (local) monies from the exchange For visitors the costs are lower.Chinese Yuan has been accepted for international currency exchange to,rival the dollar. The Yuan recognised internationally as stable.

    US dominance in dollar exchange worldwide helps the US dollar value. Keep,up demand for $Dollar. More use brings in more monies use activity for the US currency/treasury. More demand means more fees and exchange expense benefits the US banks/economy. More activity. That is changing. Euro (stable reserve – back up) is becoming more important for foreign exchange. Sterling is a small part of it.

    Many world currencies are not tradeable. They cannot be exchanged for other currencies even in the banks of these countries. These banks that only function in their own countries (unsafe). People cannot use international bank cards to withdraw from cash lines or banks. They do not trade currency. The have to exchange (dollars, Euro, Sterling Yuan etc at separate money exchange bureaus (private) not banks. For the local currency to make purchases or pay for things, The money left over cannot be exchanged in any banks. It can only be exchanged back into $Dollars or whatever in the foreign exchange facilities, Not in the banks. They do not have exchange facilities.

  119. bjsalba says:

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
    Mahatma Gandhi

    We are at “then they fight you” stage – they are no longer laughing. We knew they would fight dirty.

    Do I want the first minister or our justice minister to intervene? Absolutely not!

    SNP and ScotGov are taking the action to Holyrood, Westminster and Brussels at the Governmental level.

    So how do we support them?

    Help get everyone out to vote in the EU elections for SNP or Greens.

    The Yes Movement and AUOB are taking the action to the streets of our cities and to our fellow citizens.

    So how do we counter the action of the British elite trying to suppress us?

    Sign up for every March you can get to.

    And here is another thought.

    Start a fundraiser for Manny? Having a high profile defence would be good.

  120. TD says:

    Breeks at 6:49 a.m.

    People want progress on Indy; material, meaningful progress.”

    Except that roughly half the population of Scotland do not want progress on Indy. That is the problem and that is what we need to change. We need to get our ducks in a row and in the right order – increase support first, then hold Indyref2. I wish it were different, but there is no point in deluding ourselves. Holding an indyref on current levels of support risks losing it, which is the one thing that absolutely must not happen.

    The good news is that things are moving in our direction. The demographic changes are gradually moving things our way as younger people get the vote and older people like me shuffle off. And in the shorter term, Brexit continues to provide a rich vein of recruits to our cause. Sturgeon is playing it right – hold, hold, hold.

  121. Ken500 says:

    The SNP members/representatives said nothing about Cybernats/nuts. At all. They did not mention Cybernats/huts at all. They did not mention Cybenats/nuts, The words were never used at all. They made brief statements about people being nice to each other on the internet etc, one made reference to getting universal messages from Yes/No supporters both which (he) were considered weird by some. The messages claiming he was M15 etc. Not validated. Other (false?) exaggerated? claims. This was true he had been getting them. Goes with teritory. Defence spokesperson. A pretty mild comments. Compared to Williamson behaviour, more than bizarre. Outrageous,

    The Westminster unionists would start a 11WW in a minute. If they could get away with it. No one else will entertain it, The Brexit shambles are an international disgrace. Appalling mess. Westminster unionist Gov is a laughing dtock. Sanctionig and starving people. It’s own citizens. Killing off their own voters, members. Going down sinking into oblivion. Just a bloody disgrace.

    Neil McKay headlines introduced Cybernats/huts to the story. A complete fabrication by the Herald. A mismatch of comments made at different times and places. Out of context. Jus a fraud, The usual nonsense totally taken out of context. Read the original comments. They are just general and quite inoffensive. The usual storm in a teacup. Given far to much kudos and attention Than deserved. A total storm in a teacup. No wonder no one reads the Herald,

    Watching what people say is a national pastime. It’s what people do that matter. Snap do so much good for Scotland. Scotlabd coukd be run so much better Independent, it is a right enshrined in Law but not extended to Scotland by Westminster unionist

    The chance to vote is coming soon. EU Get out and vote. Make Scotland better still. VoteSNP/SNP. Make your voice heard for a better world. Get one other person to vote as well. Whole families. Job done. It is better to fight one campsihgn st a time resources. Every vote counts. Reject the Brexit shambles,

    The SNP members are funding the Campaign. Raising revenues, campaigning, holding meetings, delivering leaflets, folding letters etc. Nice, caring friendly people. Get out and join them. Do whatever you can. You will not regret it but feel better. A bit of exercise for those who are able. There is much to do for those who can. Do what you can. People will feel better for it. Get stuck in. Every little, creates a lot, with like minded people. Every little counts. A laugh and camaraderie. Just like the Marches.

    The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. Coming soon.

  122. Ken500 says:

    Do not do nothing. Nothing achieves or gains nothing. Get out there. Be a better nation. Just vote. SNP/SNP. Do it now. Make the effort. It is worth it. Thank you.

  123. Breastplate says:

    Breeks, I agree with a lot of what you say.
    For those on here who believe the SNP can do no wrong, I also believe that criticism by the SNP of the grass roots support for independence and their distancing of themselves from the grass roots marches (AUOB) is a backward step in the drive for our self determination.

    Now I don’t think for one minute Nicola is anti independence, I just believe she is being given poor guidance at times, it is perhaps time that she got a new strategy team or at the very least one or two of them could be doing with a good boot up the @rse to reboot their programming on independence. Independence first and foremost.

    On other comments about the SNP not washing their dirty laundry in public, well, that is exactly where it should be done.
    This is just my opinion and there is no need to agree with me.

  124. Breastplate says:

    It is immaterial how many people want Indy or not. There is a democratic mandate for a second independence referendum regardless of how many support it. This should take precedence until that mandate expires.
    Once time has ran out on this one, we will need a new mandate.

  125. Ken500 says:

    People are covincing others to vote who sometimes will not bother. Convincing people to go out and vote SNP. Loads of people. Join in convince loads of people as well. Cut the negative criticism it does no good at all. Just depresses people. Join the good fight for what is right. Do not leave it all to others. Convince all families. Just another one other would do it. Call in favours etc. It is easy. Simple. Now is the chance. Take it.

  126. Clootie says:

    I am a SNP member. I will remain a SNP member. However it is time our elected officials accepted that the MSM will distort/misquote/manipulate every interview comment they make. They appear to accept exclusion from TV as the norm but still accept the summons when they know it will be an aggressive managed set piece. They contribute to a dying unionist dead tree newspaper in the at best deluded idea that the article would be balanced.

    The SNP are the best vehicle to unite the YES movement but the elected officials need to focus on their supporters and stop pandering to the media.

    I offer some simple advise. You will never, never win over or receive fair reporting from the MSM. Please stop defending them as the “free press”. They are not. They are owned and directed by Unionist owners. The one exception is the BBC which is controlled by Westminster.

    The YES community and the Internet are your tools so please stop trying to coorie up to the Unionist media.

  127. Dorothy Devine says:

    I read on the Rev’s twitter that someone being smart , I believe a churnalist but I could be wrong, had come up with the statement ‘Not Just lies but unionist lies’

    I think that would make a great banner – followed by several others featuring the sayings of certain MP’s MSP’s the BBBC, and several newspaper pundits.

  128. boris says:

    The AUOB march in Glasgow last weekend was a tremendous success, in spite of disruptive efforts designed to reduce the impact on the Scottish public by Glasgow District Council the BBC and nearly all of the Scottish media outlets.

    Another Scottish Independence referendum is scheduled to be held before the next Scottish Government election referendum and the well practiced and successful tactics of the British secret services and the Unionists will be used against the Yes movement with the intention to neuter Scots.

    The undernoted posts are as relevant today as they were when I compiled them. Worth a read

  129. sassenach says:

    I used to visit this site daily, even have it as my ‘Homepage’, but lately it is no longer the pleasure it was to come here.

    It now involves avoiding various kinds of ‘concern trolls’ and obvious unionist posters intent on killing off our dream.This has, IMO, been accelerating since the author’s court case, until I now find myself very conflated about who is actually ‘genuine’ in their Indy beliefs!

    This site has taught me a lot about constitutional issues, over the years (thanks, RP), but it is no longer worth the effort of wading through the ‘rubbish’.

    However the SNP, to my mind, is the only game in town with respect to Indy, thus I will keep voting SNP/SNP, and convincing others likewise.

  130. Dr Jim says:

    @sassenach 8:49am

    Ditto on all of that

  131. manandboy says:

    The alternative, for those who, publicly, are dissatisfied with the SNP and follow a well worn path for Scots, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory – Ruth Davidson, once a bully….. once a liar….. Me, me, me. The needy poor, the sick, the disabled, anyone in need of help from society, I, the bully, with my solutions and my lies, I’ll sort them out. Join me, you who are privileged and comfortable, and together we will eradicate the needy and enhance the entitled and already successful. Come, vote Tory.

  132. Tatu3 says:

    We knew Westminster would play dirty near the end. Maybe we should all step back and count to 10 , let the mud fall, then fight back.
    Just keep voting SNP for a wee while longer. We’ve come a long way. Don’t give up now, it’s what Westminster want.
    Remember the England/Scotland 6 Nations rugby match? We were losing SO badly 31-0 at half time. But we didn’t give up, we got up and fought back. That’s what we should do now.

  133. Footsoldier says:

    Clootie@ 8:33

    It is important for SNP spokespersons at all levels to appear whenever invited and particularly if live on air.

    Most of them completely fail to seize the opportunity to get out a few killer lines. They seem to think they are there to discuss what they were invited for. They are not, they are there on our behalf to push independence under the guise of the topic being discussed – so cut down the topic detail and get out a few quick quips.

    Watch the Tories, they are brilliant at it, no matter the topic they always get a few “SNP bad” in.

    Perhaps it is time to monitor how our SNP people are doing on the media front. A good example will be today’s statistics on there being 76.2 doctors per 100,000 of population in Scotland against 58.1% per 100,000 in England. Every SNP politician on air should mention this without exception and if they do not ask them why not.

    “Our tax regime with benefits such as free university tuition fees” is helping to retain and attract doctors.” Takes 8 seconds said slowly.

    We need to sharpen our act.

  134. Dorothy Devine says:

    Sassenach, I think you should continue to visit daily , after all it is the Rev’s articles that count , though the many educational additions and well spotted pieces btl are a bonus , but it is WingsOverScotland that is the mainstay.

    No-one has to read the drivel , the pernicious influences of the infiltrators, they are easy to spot and scrolling past is just as easy.

  135. A C Bruce says:

    “We knew they would fight dirty”.

    Sure, we did. It’s just a bit of a shock to find that it’s certain SNP leaders who are fighting dirty against their support, many of whom are SNP’s own voters.

    I’m sure I’ll get over it but I’m still beeling at the “trash” x 2 accusation of Hunter and the nerve of McDonald peppering his remarks with swearing whilst calling out others for using abusive language shows a distinct lack of self awareness and a high degree of hypocrisy. They should take a long, hard look in a mirror.

    You’ve got to laugh at their foolishness.

  136. Robert Louis says:

    So, now Wales are having their own independence march in Cardiff. I like the new plaid leader, he tells it like it is;

    QUOTE “This Saturday, people from all across Wales will come together in their hundreds and thousands to proudly declare that Wales’ brightest possible future is as an independent nation at the heart of Europe.

    “Joining the EU as an independent member would treble our number of MEPs, give us the Presidency of the Council on a rotating basis and a Commissioner, and billions of Cohesion Funding until we are brought back up to decent levels of prosperity.

    “When did Westminster ever offer us that?”

    Perhaps we could do with Mr.Price leading Scottish independence as well. He seems to have real fire in his belly for independence.

    And, I know some won’t like it, but It would be most interesting if Adam Price, the leader of Plaid Cymru attends the AUOB indy march in Cardiff, won’t it?? Maybe a wee lesson for some of the fearties up here.

    The more I hear Adam Price, the more I like him, and the more I think Wales might beat Scotland to independence, with the way things are going up here.

    Quote extracted from this article in Scotland’s only pro independence newspaper, The National- which is worth subscribing to.

  137. Abulhaq says:

    Sites like this provide opportunities to express opinion. If everybody stuck to the party line it would be a dull read. Communiqués from the presidium and politics and politicians on autopilot, no thanks.
    The Cybernat fiasco is an example of politicians with idle brains and overactive twitter accounts.
    The Glasgow demonstration did at least show there’s raw vitality in Scottish nationalism. We need more of the same. Politicians can’t screw that up….surely not?

  138. Robert Louis says:

    Breastplate at 818am,

    Completely agree with you. Especially regarding NS. I too believe she has the wrong people giving her bad advice, and I think recently we have seen clear evidence of that.

    A wee clean out of some of her ‘hangers on’, might be very beneficial.

  139. Dorothy Devine says:

    Alex Salmond was at the very first march I attended in Edinburgh .

    Nicola Sturgeon was at the second march I attended in Edinburgh.

    Keith Brown has been at a couple of the Glasgow marches .

    Where does the idea that they never turn up come from?

    And does it matter whether they do or don’t as we the people are telling them that we the people are readying ourselves for the second independence referendum and keen to get on with it?

    Or do they just read and listen to those ‘ not just lies but UNIONIST lies’ permeating the Scottish/ UK media?

  140. DerekM says:

    The bizarre thing is that all the people of the UK should be angry about this,if not for some greedy politicians this island could be a beacon for modernity instead we have austerity,public spending cuts,privatization of our services and a seriously devalued currency with rising inflation.

    I mean you strike oil and this happens the only conclusion that can be is the people in charge are criminals.

  141. Dr Jim says:

    The SNP are foooling us all they don’t want Independence, they’re in cahoots with the Tories, they’re only managing Holyrood on behalf of Westminster, they’re lying, they’re badly advised, we don’t blame the SNP they’re just getting it wrong, we need somebody else to lead the YES movement, the SNP don’t care about the YES movement, the SNP should be doing more, I’m giving up my membership of the SNP, it’s all hopeless and the SNP are going to let us down

    Says a whole load of anonymous nobodies on the Internet parroting the words of the *British* press who are now congratulating themselves and even fake congratulating the SNP on a weekend’s job done well

    And Strachan’s in the box! he can’t miss! Scotland are set to win the world cup! Oh Noooo! disaster as Strachan misses, Scotland once again snatches defeat from the jaws of victory because of lack of self belief, and England celebrates

    No disrespect to Strachan there, a well known name only used as a demonstrative example

    Maybe Scotland doesn’t deserve Independence until they stop arguing about who should be the rightful king before they even fight the battle eh

    Why not take a leaf out of England’s book, most of the population of that country are stupid, uneducated, don’t know geography, have no understanding of history, can’t count, their favourite programmes are Gogglebox and Royal babies, but when it comes down to it get themselves en mass behind some of the most incredibly incompetent nut case prime ministers the world has ever seen sing rule Britania eyes streaming as they view an overfly by a Lancaster bomber….. and win!

    Scotland’s full to brimming over with clever people who invented the modern world and we’re still doing it
    Maybe that’s the problem, we’re so clever we think too much

  142. stu mac says:

    This time no an article but an excellent reader’s letter in the National:

  143. Clootie says:


    I’m afraid you make my point for me. They do not get a chance to make any key points. It is an onslaught of Unionist claims and demands. Interruptions “…answer the question”. Then we have sound problems, sound sync problems etc, etc.

    They should attend the AUOB marches. They should speak at them. They should create their own forums and media.

    The impact of stating the refusal to give interviews to the BBC and the media due to bias would be powerful.

    The Internet is the answer NOT the unionist media.

    The Environmental pressure groups are way ahead on that lesson.

  144. Abulhaq says:

    @Robert Louis
    In the National article on AUOB Cymru, why was it felt necessary for an SNP spokesman to actually have to say the party didn’t boycott the Glasgow demonstration.
    The art of victory is about timing and knowing when to zip it.

  145. Golfnut says:

    @ bsjalba.

    Scotgov and therefor the SNP as the party of administration are constrained within the devolution settlement which to a degree limits what actions they can take. The same applies to Westminster with regard to the Treaty of Union, Scots Constitutional law has equal standing with English Constitutional law, though you would be hard pressed to find anyone in that place who admitted it. The SNP motion on the People of Scotlands right to choose their form of government was passed without a murmur because they had no choice, just as any UK legislation must pass into English and Scottish law, fitting a square peg into a round hole as someone so aptly put it. Whether Westminster likes it or not, they are as much subject to Scots Constitutional law as they are English.

    As I said though, the SG has further limits set by devolution, though I think like Breeks that some very important milestones in our journey have been missed or perhaps even squandered.

    Whatever constraints apply to the SG, they dont apply to us. The people of Scotland are Sovereign, Westminster confirmed this and it is now recorded in Hansard, and if the people of Scotland are Sovereign, it therefor follows that Westminster can’t be. Sovereignty has to be living and breathing and exercised or as we see currently we let it sit covered in dust, and ignored by the very people who should be terrified of it.

    We the people need to be engaged a bit more in driving Scot Gov forward, petitions demanding action, particularly if directed against our most active opponents or the most vulnerable to Scots Constitutional law. The media and of course the crown fit that bill.
    Demanding a judicial review on what action can be taken against Politicians and the media using lies, distortion and misinformation against the people of Scotland to facilitate the theft of Scotland’s resources and deny us the ability to make informed choices over constitutional matters. Or demanding that the Queen is ordered to appear before the Scottish parliament and explain why she signed the withdrawal bill against our express wishes( kind of puts into perspective the arrogance and stupidity of a English MP refusing the people a referendum,a people who are flexing their Constitutional muscle by engaging directly with the crown) are just 2 options among many that could be used to engage, educate and inform people of their true constitutional rights. It’s not as if we are spoiled for choice on what we engage people with, how about demanding a ruling from the UN on who will actually own trident when we bin this union. Anyway apologies to all for the length of this post.

  146. Footsoldier says:

    Today’s Herald is final confirmation beyond doubt that it has morphed into a Daily Mail broadsheet. Three pages including front page with big headlines saying “indy bad” followed up by a headline attack on air tax cut. To complete the picture the letters page is dominated by anti-indy people with anti- devolution headliner.

    I have no problem at all with the articles and the letters tend to be reasonably fair overall. The headlines are and always will be the critical factor sticking in peoples minds and must be losing them readers from the Yes side.

  147. Footsoldier says:

    Clootie 9:33

    Sorry Clootie we shall have to agree to disagree. Even if 10 to 1 against, there will still be a chance to utter some words.

    Let us say the topic is Trident and a question has been asked of the indy representative who knows they will be outnumbered and shot down “good question – with the UK having the lowest pension in western Europe I wonder about our priorities but to turn to your question …..”.

  148. Robert Peffers says:

    Breeks says: 8 May, 2019 at 6:49 am:

    ” … And where the fk is there ANY leadership in that Robert?
    It’s the same tepid impotence and indecision which spawns desperate frustration and exasperation

    I couldn’t be bothered reading through yet one more of your anti-independence rants, Breeks.

    You are well aware these rants are doing nothing but harm to the independence movement and without doubt that is your reason for doing them.

    You know full well that if you were an real independence supporter who had criticisms of any part of the movement the way to get them to take notice would be to tell them so directly.

    Which is why you do not do so. Instead you rant on an open forum with Wingers as your target audience and not the FM/SG or SNP.

    Your chosen audience is the rank and file supporters of independence who you know are impatient as things are not happening, (yet), that they want to happen and you aim to stir that impatience up.

    Your object isn’t to get to the FM, SG or SNP it is to stir up discontent here on Wings. It is plain you know you could put any genuine worries directly to the FM/SG/SNP who are all easily accessible and your comments on Wings shows you obviously have good communication skills .

    You are obviously not too shy to use those good communication skills. Thing is, Breeks, you are not using them to attempt to change the FM/SG/SNP or you would use them to communicate with those you complain about. Instead you rant here on an open forum where those skill will have most effect upon Wingers and least effect upon the FM/SG and SNP – furthermore you know it and cannot deny it.

  149. Flower of Scotland says:

    @Golfnut 9.42am

    Really good comment! I agree.

  150. Scottish questions at UK parliament 11.30,

    basically a chance for lickspittles,concern trolls and house jocks to attack the SNP and Scotland.

  151. Capella says:

    The Herald chooses to interview Tony Blair to mark 20 years of devolution and makes him their front page headline. Tony Blair is opposed to Scottish Independence. Tony Blair is opposed to Indyref2 but for a PV on EU. This is consistent. He thinks that nations are better being part of a larger unit. He must have been gutted when the Soviet Union broke up. Perhaps the Roman Empire is his role model.

    I haven’t read the full article because I don’t subscribe to The Herald, and never will. It’s the kind of “healthy” journalism Kezia Dugdale would endorse.

    Oh – I nearly forgot – when he was a young man, the political harshness of Nationalists like Alex Salmond prevented him from regarding himself as Scottish. I wish he wasn’t Scottish too. But he is. His birth certificate is in Register House. You can look it up.

  152. Cubby says:

    Robert Peffers@5.36pm

    To clarify my post – probably not as clear as it should have been. I was referring to the current UK pound falling not the English pound after independence. My reference to the Scottish pound increasing in value was after independence.

    I agree with the rest of your post.

  153. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breastplate says: 8 May, 2019 at 8:18 am:

    ” … Breeks, I agree with a lot of what you say.
    For those on here who believe the SNP can do no wrong,”

    So here we go – as expected we get the follow-up on the Breeks load of lies and crap. It’s the way they work together that gives them away. Now this one begins with agreeing with what Breeks says. Except the first bit is a total bare faced lie.

    No one here thinks the SNP can do no wrong but that is the chosen narrative that is going to be their false mantra. How do I know this you may wonder – so I’ll explain it for you.

    Quite obviously, and it has often been a direct claim, they imply that I am in the category of those who, “think”, the SNP can do no wrong. Thing is I have never in my life made any such claim – the claim is only the one these people want Wingers to believe and they push it via multiple commenters.

    Wingers will know that I make no such claims but only that if the FM/SG/SNP are actually doing something wrong then genuine independence supporters will tell the FM/SG/SNP directly what the person with the complaint thinks they are doing wrong and does not act against the cause of independence by complaining about it on an open forum.

    Dripping on an open forum will only give the unionists fuel for their campaign and will not change anything the FM/SG/SNP are doing if indeed it is wrong. Joining the SNP and bringing your complaints up at branch meetings must be recorded in the minutes and acted upon. The FM/SG/SNP are all approachable and their contact details are available so a complaint can be made by anyone. Why then all these false flag unionist agitations of independence supporters on open forums? The answer is very, very obvious. Their target audience is genuine indy supporters and not the FM/SG/SNP. You aim at the target you want to hit – not at another target for doing so cannot score hits on another target.

    So here we have yet another of these people agreeing with breeks and starting off their post with a great big lie – the claim that there are people claiming the SNP can do no wrong is a false claim. No one, least of all me, has made such claims. Saying that if you have a claim, or even a worry, about what the SNP is doing then tell them about it and do not air it on an open forum is not claiming the SNP are always right. In fact it is the opposite as it is telling people to complain where it will get listened to.

  154. DerekM says:

    Ach dont worry Dr Jim the yessers are a feisty bunch but know what they have to do since it was them that chose this path after indyref by jumping into the SNP membership could have gave the SNP a boot after indyref but decided not to.

    Though i do have to question this wait strategy if it is because there is still a chance the UK can revoke A50 and still use its veto to stop us joining the EU as an independent nation then tell us we have to wait until after the EU elections to see what the EU parliament does with UK MEPS.

    At this point they really need to tell us the strategy i fear they are trying to win England for Labour hoping JC will give them the S30 while we are trying to destroy Labour in England since they are the weak underbelly of the British nationalist snake in an attempt to push the tories and labour closer a strategy which is now in full action and will not be stopped the results from the English elections prove it.

    So i would say to the SNP do not try to use Labour please since we intend to dismantle them piece by piece and we did tell you this oh 5 years ago.

  155. Abulhaq says:

    @Capella 10:29
    Blair is like Brown, and many Scots of the background, a blinkered, brainwashed, old school Unionist. He belongs in the 19 century when Scots might speak of England and English exceptional values without any sense of irony.
    As to irony, the ‘county council’ designed to keep the nationalists out which he envisaged when agreeing, reluctantly, to a legislature in Edinburgh has no finer example than the current situation.
    Then he got Iraq wrong too. Teflon Tony, how to get away with murder and prosper.
    Wonder what he thinks of RD

  156. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breastplate says: 8 May, 2019 at 8:26 am:

    ” … It is immaterial how many people want Indy or not.”

    hat’s a downright lie.

    ” … There is a democratic mandate for a second independence referendum regardless of how many support it. This should take precedence until that mandate expires.”

    More lies – Please explain how a democratic mandate, “Runs out”?

    The only way a democratic mandate can, “run out”, is by being initiated and failing , being replaced by another democratic mandate or the government or person getting the mandate being replaced.

    For example a Westminster Government has a democratic mandate to govern until either it gets a vote of no confidence or is replaced by another Westminster government with a mandate to govern.

    … Once time has ran out on this one, we will need a new mandate.”</i?

    So where does it say the current mandate(s), will run out on a certain date?

    I'll tell you when it would most certainly, "Run out", and that is if it is used and either succeeds or it fails. Also if another same mandate was called for and the call failed.

  157. Abulhaq says:

    Euro elections. Big Scottish turnout. All seats held by SNP. Why not?

  158. Muscleguy says:

    And not just the oil. A while back the SWS calculated that if the duty on whisky from the distilleries on just Islay had been returned to the island they could have very literally paved the roads with gold.

    We could start a separate fund with alcohol duties and ciggy tax and sugar tax etc for the express purpose of health promotions, making gyms pretty much free to use for eg, subsidising exercise gear (running shoes are NOT cheap but the use of them saves the NHS millions).

  159. geeo says:

    Robert Louis says:

    8 May, 2019 at 9:23 am

    Breastplate at 818am,

    Completely agree with you. Especially regarding NS. I too believe she has the wrong people giving her bad advice, and I think recently we have seen clear evidence of that.

    A wee clean out of some of her ‘hangers on’, might be very beneficial

    There you go again Robert Louis: “SNP BAD”

    British Nationalism runs right through you like writing through a stick of rock.

    Have you corresponded with Nicola Sturgeon personally to tell her you are concerned about her advisors being crap ?

    Can you publically NAME these advisors you know so much about ?

    Are you forgetting your challenge ?

    When did you last post a POSITIVE SNP comment ?

    Have you actually EVER done such a thing ?

    If you and your fellow Concern Trolls are the standard left at Britnat HQ, indy will be a cakewalk this time around.

    Fooling nobody.

  160. Cubby says:

    Scotland Office Questions in HofCommons

    This farce just demonstrates the contempt Westminster has for Scotland. A chamber full of people loudly talking amongst themselves while at the same time important questions are being asked about Scotland. Totally rude and ignorant. Does speaker Bercow do anything about the noise – no. Does he bellow out the question must be heard or the answer must be heard as per PMQs – no. What message does that send – Scotland does not matter – Scotland is not important enough for me to make an effort to quieten down the din.

  161. crazycat says:

    This crowdfunder for Independence Live is languishing somewhat, if anyone wants to cheer it up a bit:

  162. call me dave says:

    Scottish Questions HoC:
    This morning Radio shortbread ‘live session’ is that normal? Someone will keep me right.

    “Does the Sec of State for Scotland agree with me that Scotland is sh*te and will never be any good until Ruth Davidson sweeps into power and becomes FM”!

    “I thank the right Hon Gentleman for his question and I certainly whole heartedly agree”.

    I paraphrase but that’s it as usual. 🙂 🙂

  163. misteralz says:

    Watched a bit of Dutch telly last night – and I don’t, normally – and it was a programme about some Belgian guys hitchhiking around the North Sea coast. They did the border to John o’ Groats in this particular episode, and did a bit about the oil when they went past Cromarty. Of note was when they asked a local how they felt about Scotland’s oil being stolen by the English government.
    The entire fucking rest of the world can see.

  164. mr thms says:

    The Herald is reporting the Scottish Government is postponing the assignment of 50% of all the VAT raised in Scotland from April this year. It would acrue and be paid in 2020 and would have raised the amount of revenues, raised in Scotland, to over 50%.

    This recent article, from the Fraser of Allander Institute, made the case for its postponement.

    I recall the Scottish Tories, in the Smith Commission wanted VAT to be devolved, but under the EU VAT regime it was not allowed.

    Last year, by a handful of votes (and the support of ALL the Scottish Tory MPs), Westminster voted to leave the EU VAT regime when the UK leaves the EU.

    So putting two and two together should we expect Ruth Davidson to back devolution of VAT?

    If it happens, I doubt there will be a German State, Swiss Canton or Canadian Territory or Province able to match Scotland in raising as much revenues.

    Where all this is leading to is still up in the air, but it would be another power a future independent country would need to have in place.

    Similarly, if the UK goes down the road of federalism, Home Rule and Full Fiscal Autonomy.

    2020 looks likely to be a very significant crossroad for Scotland.

  165. CameronB Brodie says:

    It’s no mystery why a nation that is floating on natural wealth, has growing ranks of families dependent of food-banks.

    The Psychology and Sociology of Fraud: Integrating the Behavioral Sciences Component Into Fraud and Forensic Accounting Curricula

  166. Cubby says:

    PMQs today

    The Maybot by chiding Blackford for not using the title Earl and Countess of Dumbarton has very kindly highlighted (it needs it for some people) that the UK has two monarchies. England and Scotland.

  167. Petra says:

    @ misteralz at 12:32pm …….. ” Scotland’s oil being stolen.”…

    You’ve got me interested now misteralz. Did the local know what they were talking about, lol, and if so how did he answer?

  168. Can I ask a question, does Norway have food banks?

  169. Bibbit Blair says:

    On Bank Holiday Monday, BBC Parliament ran the Election from 1979 in full.

    This was called after a vote of no confidence in Labour Govt which Scottish Labour spin ad nauseum the SNP ennabled 20 years of Thatcher.

    It is absolutely fascinating watch, (with 40 years of Scottish political hindsight).

    The SNP lost 9 seats, down from 11 to 2 seats.

    In 1979, Scotland had 71 MPs.

    Labour got 44; Tories 22 and Libs 3 MPs.

    Margo McDonald spoke from Glasgow studio. She did not stand.

    What struck me was:

    (a) the old lie, Scots must vote Labour to avoid a Tory Govt. From 1979 to date, Scots gets the UK that England votes for. Only in 2017, has N Ireland votes allowed English votes to stand.

    (b) In his resignation speech, Callaghan never once mentioned or blamed the SNP as being the cause of Labour’s defeat.

    (c) Neither Tories nor Labour called themselves the Scottish Labour Party or the Scottish Conservative Party. Plus the Tories never once called themselves the Conservative & Unionist Party!

    The re-writing of history these two charlatan parties have spun on the poor saps in Scotland is remarkable.

    All of them, The BBC, Tories, Labour & Liberals (with the chilling faces of Jeremy Thorpe and Cyril Smith), were clearly cock-o-hoop that the Scots knew nothing of the almost unimaginable wealth on their doorstep, which they kept hidden til a Freedom of Info Request by the SNP in 2002, revealed the full deception of the McCrone Report.

    What British Establishment cover-ups will be revealed, 40 or 50 years down the line, of these historic times, I wonder?

  170. CameronB Brodie says:

    As far as I’m concerned, Westminster lost all moral claims to govern Scotland when it chose to hide the McCrone report.

    Trust as a Social Reality


    Although trust is an underdeveloped concept in sociology, promising theoretical formulations are available in the recent work of Luhmann and Barber. This sociological version complements the psychological and attitudinal conceptualizations of experimental and survey researchers. Trust is seen to include both emotional and cognitive dimensions and to function as a deep assumption underwriting social order. Contemporary examples such as lying, family exchange, monetary attitudes, and litigation illustrate the centrality of trust as a sociological reality….

  171. misteralz says:

    Petra, he was a skipper and a yesser. He knew fine well. 🙂

  172. CameronB Brodie says:

    Given the British state assumes Scotland’s natural wealth is not Scotland’s, can the British state claim to respect the human rights of Scotland’s nationals (see the “Right to Development”)? Spoiler, contemporary British nationalism is incompatible with the principle of universal human rights (see the full-English Brexit).



    This study, commissioned by the European Parliament’s Policy Department for Citizens’ Rights and Constitutional Affairs at the request of the LIBE Committee, examines the added value of developing a democratic rule of law and fundamental rights-based approach to the protection of minorities in the EU legal system, from an ‘intersectional’ viewpoint. It presents the state of play regarding the main challenges characterising the protection of ethnic, religious and linguistic minorities in a selection of 11 European countries, in light of existing international and regional legal standards.

    Minority protection has been an EU priority in enlargement processes as a conditional criterion for candidate countries to accede to the Union. Yet a similar scrutiny mechanism is lacking after accession. The study puts forward several policy options to address this gap. It suggests specific ways in which a Union Pact for democracy, the rule of law and fundamental rights, could help to ensure a comprehensive EU approach to minority protection.

  173. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Scottish Law Society
    Here’s one for your members who place more value on their British nationalism, than on the rule-of-law and the civil liberties and human rights of the Scottish public.


  174. Breastplate says:

    I’m sorry if I’m confusing you but the mandate given to the SNP to hold an independence referendum runs out in 2021.
    Perhaps it is me that is confused, please tell me how the mandate given to the SNP is eternal in your eyes?

  175. Breeks says:

    Robert Peffers, your behaviour is like an angry old style schoolmaster who would submit a pupil to degradation and humiliation in front of the whole class just for the “impertinence” of asking a question you couldn’t answer.

    You use your knowledge for power, and that isn’t meant as a compliment.

  176. Giving Goose says:


    I really enjoy watching the Duchess of Dumbarton sex scene from Suits.
    It’s a real honour for Dumbarton to have such a classy Duchess.
    It’s not just any old Duchess who shags in a cupboard!

  177. Cubby says:


    I enjoyed reading that story. A no nonsense guy – brilliant.

  178. gus1940 says:

    On the day when Scottish Questions takes place at WM it used to be the case that it was shown on BBC2 late on the same night.

    I see no sign of it being shown tonight on either BBC2 or the new Scotland Channel.

    Does this mean that in future it will only be shown live on BBC Parliament immediately before PMQs?

  179. Cubby says:

    Giving Goose@1.59pm

    Now that’s not very nice Giving Goose. We are supposed to be very nice to everyone (according to the Herald. ) especially Royalty no doubt. Never watched suits but I bet the cupboard wasn’t a cupboard in Dumbarton. Was it a walk in cupboard or an Ikea style?

    So just behave yourself – do a bit more grovelling to your betters. LOL – there’s nothing like royalty for identifying the real grovellers in Scotland eg Billy banana boots (oops slipped out of being nice mode – better take more Herald “be nice pills”.) I’m away to get some more pills.

  180. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Scottish Law Society
    Here’s another one for your members who place more value on their British nationalism, than on the rule-of-law and the civil liberties and human rights of the Scottish public. Where was Scotland’s consent to having her natural wealth plundered by a ‘hostile’ state (see the McCrone report)?

    Contested Consent


    It is widely recognized that consent plays a central role in legitimating political authority in liberal democratic states via the contract tradition we associate with Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Hume and others. In this context, consent is understood as a means to secure popular sovereignty and an individual’s duty to obey that sovereign authority. While there is broad recognition of the importance of consent, current interest in the concept is dwindling. The problem with consent has always been twofold: on the one hand, explicit consent is remarkably rare; on the other hand, the notion of tacit consent is so diffuse as to be deemed useless. As a result, most political theorists have moved away from consent.

    In this paper, I demonstrate that the use of explicit consent is on the rise in contemporary liberal democratic states and I juxtapose this rise against the democratic ideal from which it sprouted. In doing so, consent is no longer used to protect citizens from potential abuses of political authority; rather consent strengthens the hand of political authority by dividing the citizen body. In short, it would appear that consent in practice is almost the exact opposite of consent in theory.

  181. Cubby says:


    BBC Reporting Scotland this lunchtime.

    Their report on the number of GPs per head in Scotland stated that Scotland had more doctors (GPs) per head than in England. My first thought was someone is going to get the sack in Pacific Quay for telling the truth. Then quickly I realise no actual figures were given in the Reporting Scotland report. Downplaying the difference by keeping the actual figures secret.

    I think that is a fairly nice and accurate comment. I don’t want the Heralds guardians of niceness complaining.

  182. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Peffers @ 11:03:

    So here we go – as expected we get the follow-up on the Breeks load of lies and crap.

    You don’t seem to realise, but it’s exactly this kind of dismissive and unseemly response – which you are all too ready to condemn in others – which gives rise to the very suspicions you claim are unwarranted. Not to mention your other favourite ploy of telling everyone that if they have any disagreement with the SNP they should stay schtum on here and bring it up “through the usual channels”.

    As it happens, I don’t agree with everything Breeks says. He can at times lapse into something of a moan. But he has a right to make his case. Not least about the importance of preserving our crucial position within the EU. A position that is consistent with the promises that Nicola has repeatedly made to us, BTW.

    There are people on here who are clearly false friends, and Breeks is not one of them. In fact it’s richly ironic, because he of all people takes your own prognostications about sovereignty more seriously than anyone. Which raises the obvious implied awkward question: “if this is so all-important, why is the SNP not pushing it for all it’s worth and making things happen as a matter of some urgency?” And it’s your own inability to address that question that really irks.

    You got dem ol’ Cognitive Dissonance Blues. Not Breeks‘ fault.

    You are far more effective when you quit hectoring people who have as much right to speak their piece as you and instead, as Petra has observed, relate your personal life experiences. Then you are a real asset.

  183. call me dave says:

    Radio Shortbread:

    Aye! More doctors in Scotland per head than the other countries in the UK…but more pressure on these doctors who see >100 in one day! (>100/ day) That’s a lot eh?

    Also less Scottish consultancies than 10 years ago and an ageing population…. and..and there…because you can’t have any good news!

    Mind you this has to be tempered with what I was reading in the cafe, on a left behind Daily Mail, that the ENHS is in a meltdown crisis due to “EU migrant staff leaving in their droves”

    Have we not got anymore ‘not Scotland’s’ oil fields discovered yet? 🙂

  184. Dorothy Devine says:

    Cubby , I don’t think I can stand all this niceness for much longer – go bite an ankle somewhere please!

    P.S I am reading my copy of Barking up the Right Tree as I type , I won’t tell you how it ends!

  185. CameronB Brodie says:

    Scotland’s future is uncertain, whatever direction Scotland chooses, but a future in Brexitania is that of a battered wife. A future in the EU is that of rational self-determination and offers hope for social emancipation and inclusive national development.

    Cambridge Compromise

    This Note contains the recommendation for a mathematical basis for the apportionment of the seats in the European Parliament between the Member States of the European Union. This is the unanimous recommendation of the Participants in the Cambridge Apportionment Meeting, held at the instigation of the Committee on Constitutional Affairs at the Centre for Mathematical Sciences, University of Cambridge, on 28–29 January 2011.

  186. Wullie says:

    If someone could put up the diagram for Scottish sea and land boundary re British Isles adjacent waters. This diagram will certainly open people’s eyes. I have the diagram as a screen shot but do not know how to put it onto a wings site. Other people may have this diagram it’s a hoot and shows how huge Scotland really is.

  187. Dan says:


    Indyposterboy has various info-graphics that are worth saving and printing out.

  188. mr thms says:

    Wullie @ 3:16 pm

    The combined area of Scotland’s landmass and EEZ, is bigger than the landmass of Spain.

  189. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breastplate says: 8 May, 2019 at 1:55 pm:

    ” … I’m sorry if I’m confusing you”

    No your not sorry but I’ll let that pass and you don’t confuse me one bit.

    No it does not – what runs out is the current session of the Holyrood parliament. An election for the next session then takes place. Here is the SNP’s own take on the whole referendum matter. Cut and pasted from the SNP website:-

    “The SNP is strongly committed to giving Scotland a choice on our future at the end of the Brexit process.
    The SNP Scottish Government has a clear mandate to offer the people of Scotland a choice. The SNP has won two elections – the Scottish Parliament election in 2016 and the General Election last year – with an explicit commitment in our manifesto on holding a referendum. The Scottish Parliament has also endorsed that position.

    The Scottish Government will not introduce legislation for an independence referendum immediately. At the end of Brexit negotiations the Scottish Government will set out its judgment on the best way forward, and on the precise time scale of the people of Scotland having a choice on our future.”

    There you go – it isn’t just the SNP that has the mandate but the Scottish Parliament also has it because it positively voted on it.

    Unlike you lot I have no mind reading powers but I do know this, The SNP’s raison d’être is Scottish Independence. Thus no matter if independence is specifically mentioned in their manifesto or not anyone casting a vote for the SNP is endorsing independence. Thus if they gain power or a majority at Westminster then each voter has endorsed them to fight for Scottish Independence.

    Whether you personally like it or not the unionist’s manifesto’s are mostly a pack of lies. They are the promises made to gain votes and promptly discarded by them once in power. One thing, though, is always true of unionist parties – they will always be the Westminster Established unionist parties and, (when Westminster demands it), they will stand shoulder to shoulder to support the Union.

    Note that upon war being declared the first thing to happen is that Her Majesty, The Queen of England, will summons someone, of Her Majesty’s choice, to Her Majesty’s Presence and command that person to form Her Majesty’s cross-party, wartime cabinet. (‘Cept of course it really isn’t Her Majesty’s choice but that of the Privy Council).

    So there you go – if you cast a vote for any unionist, (Westminster Establishment), party you cast a vote for the union and if you cast a vote for Plaid Cymru or the SNP you vote for Scottish Independence.

    BTW: If you cast a vote for Sein Fein then you are voting for a re-unified Ireland. Which is probably the reason they do not bother turning up at Westminster. They have no interest in anything else at Westminster and reunification of Ireland is never on the Order Paper.

    There is the plain truth – if a voter votes SNP they implicitly vote for Scottish Independence. If they vote Labour, Tory or LibDem they voted for the Union.

    If you still don’t get it then remember the words of Ms Thatcher who, (wrongly), opined that if the SNP got all the Scottish Westminster seats they would get independence. Nice idea but untrue. As is the idea that if the SNP contingent just walked out of the Commons and came home it would be Scottish Independence.

    In both instances this would only hold good if the legally sovereign people of Scotland had previously stipulated beforehand they had given a mandate for them to do so and if you haven’t cottoned on yet to that one the key requirement for any method of winning independence is simply that a majority of Scottish voters delegate their sovereignty to their elected representatives for ending the Union.

    Simple really, only the sovereign power has the right to claim to be sovereign and in Scotland that is the people and not either government or the crown,

  190. Dan says:

    I should add that there are multiple pages of great campaigning material to scroll though on that site.
    Hover over the Posters tab, a drop down menu appears, hover over YES Posters page 1, then the other page options will appear to the right that you can work your way through.

    Here’s another example using Malta com pared to Scotland.


    Can’t see what you’re looking for or have an idea about a graphic? Contact him and he may well create one based on the idea.
    He has for me in the past and also made adjustments to existing images to make it easier to print as some of the more colourful imagery can use a lot of ink on a home printer.

    The boy is an absolute legend for the Indy cause!

  191. Colin Alexander says:

    Something positive:

    “Choose Hope over hate”:

    Scottish Green Party manifesto:

    “Now is the time to choose hope over hate and to elect a Scottish Green MEP”.

    “we believe that Scotland’s future should be as an independent nation within the EU”

  192. Dan says:

    Sorry, lost an h off that latter link for some reason.

  193. Cubby says:

    Robert Louis@9.19am

    The Deputy leader of the SNP attended. I saw him myself. Surprised you never saw him.

    Hope this is accepted as the nice helpful comment it is intended to be.

  194. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert Peffers

    The reason Sinn Feinn MPs don’t attend the Commons is because they refuse to swear allegiance to “Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law” (English Law I presume). Their allegiance is to the people of Ireland.

    “If an MP refuses to take the oath or the affirmation to the Queen they will be unable to take part in parliamentary proceedings and will not be paid any salary and allowances until they’ve done so”. ( )

    It can be argued all of Scotland’s MPs and MSPs commit treason against the people of Scotland by swearing allegiance to the Queen instead of to the sovereign people of Scotland.

    I believe Scotland’s politicians should in future refuse to swear such an oath and instead swear allegiance to serve the sovereign people of Scotland, then fight this as a test case that highlights Scotland’s people’s sovereignty if barred from serving the people.

  195. Mac says:

    Just had my account banned at the Guardian for this posting… I am wondering whats wrong with it. Any clues?

    My country has sucked the good years from my bones and rewarded me with a brittle poverty in retirement.

    I paid for Bishops and Lords I didn’t elect and illegal wars that I didn’t support. I fired expensive missiles at foreign families in a rich man’s oil war. I paid for duck moats for dick wads to control me, and bonuses for Bankers to break the fabric of our financial system. I bailed banks that were resold at a loss to me.

    I watched our political system lord over decades of financial and cultural incompetence. A system not fit for the purposes and needs of a modern world, hampered by ancient tradition, debilitated by class stricture and structure. A system choked by nationalistic pomp and circumstance and run by an ossified establishment. It’s a heavy burden for an ordinary man.

    As I struggled to secure a roof and education for my sons, and lived honestly and frugally through each economic crisis, I watched the rich become richer and the poor eke an existence in a corrupt democracy of cash for questions, cronyism, expense scandals, and skimming politicians.

    They sold my railways, energy companies, water and hospitals and I paid tax to private companies to keep them running. They devalued my currency four times, while propping up their cronies in the City.

    All the money I generated over the decades, my personal GDP, was wasted in government ineptitude and inefficiency. My pensions were decimated. The taxes and cost of living crippled me.

    My sons left for London and New Zealand. I don’t blame them; I blame the UK class system. A lifetime of yoke and boot. A lifetime of housing, heating, eating and education, necessities that were costed like luxuries. Democratic rights sold as privilege. And thus the continuation of the extreme Scottish economic immigration that is a great shame on the UK.

    And through these decades, I have had the misfortune to suffer the false promises and prophecies of Scottish Labour. The party that adds insult to injury. The party that are simply a more incompetent version of the Tories, nothing more.

    I had to listen to the lies of Project Fear and currently endure the blitz and bombardment of Westminster propaganda against the slightest ambition in Scotland to change the status quo.

    With Brexit, I voted to Remain, along with the vast majority of my Countrymen. The EU is better for the North. There are economic, political and cultural differences between Scotland and England.

    But we are dragged along by this undemocratic, hegemonic Tory & Labour duopoly, into an embarrassing mess that demonstrates the incompetence and unsuitability of a huge number of MPs for any type of Leadership. And confirms again that Westminster is no longer ‘fit for purpose’.

    And in ten years, little has changed.
    “The parliamentary expenses watchdog tried to cover up data showing 377 MPs, including nine cabinet ministers, have had their credit cards suspended for wrong, incomplete or late claims. The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (Ipsa), set up in the wake of the expenses scandal 10 years ago, initially tried to claim the information should not be released because it could hinder the operation of the expenses system.”
    Guardian Today

    For forty years I travelled and worked freely across Europe. Proud of my heritage and respectful of other countries. And now I am ashamed by a Brexit that is about ‘Southern populist xenophobia’ and the ‘British Establishment clawing back power and control’, both in the mistaken belief in an Empire that collapsed a long time ago.

    And the cherry on the cake? The new Royal Baby has been given the title of the Earl of Dumbarton. A big rock on the Clyde where I was born. Aye right.

    I am deeply ashamed of this United Kingdom in its current state

  196. CameronB Brodie says:

    If the BBC in Scotland weren’t intent on mushroom farming, the Scottish public would be appauled at what the Prime-minister is attempting to do to Scotland. But then the BBC in Scotland wouldn’t be upholding their royal charter, if they were to inform rather than groom Scotland. Time for some EU constitutional and legal theory?

    The interpretation of Article 51 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights: the dilemma of stricter or broader application of the Charter to national measures

    1.1. The Evolution of EU Fundamental Rights: Fundamental Rights as General Principles of EU Law

    In order to understand the discussion about the scope of application of the Charter, as provided for in Article 51 therein, it is necessary to briefly recall the evolution of EU fundamental rights as general principles of Union law since the Charter itself sought to codify the existing fundamental rights framework. A short historical introduction then allows us to put Article 51 Charter in its historical context.

    It is well known that, because of historical circumstances, the original Treaties did not make any reference to fundamental rights: this omission potentially left a serious gap in the protection afforded to individuals and companies in the European territory,1 since the Union institutions had regulatory powers which might have immediate and not mediated effects on the legal situation of individuals across the Member States.2

    National courts, and especially the German and Italian Constitutional Courts,3 became understandably concerned that the Union institutions could escape any fundamental rights scrutiny: the principles of supremacy and direct effect might, if respected to the full,4 render national constitutional guarantees inapplicable to Union rules; and, as the European Communities were not signatories to the European Convention of Human Rights, the residual protection provided for therein would also be inapplicable.

    Given the post-was historical context, it is then not surprising that those constitutional courts entered into a constructive dialogue with the European Court of Justice so as to ensure that fundamental rights would also be respected by the Community Institutions. As a result of this dialogue, the Court of Justice held, in the case of Stauder, that fundamental human rights were ‘enshrined in the general principles of Community law and protected by the Court’.5 Fundamental rights were then considered unwritten general principles of (Union) law, binding all of the European institutions: whilst it was not until the Charter was drafted that the Union equipped itself with its own catalogue of fundamental rights, the political institutions welcomed the case law of the Court of Justice,6 and indeed Treaty revisions gradually strengthened fundamental rights protection in the EU.7

    As far as the identification of fundamental rights was concerned, the Court of Justice relied on a plurality of sources (which also informed the drafting of the Charter): in particular great weight was given to the common constitutional traditions of the Member States8 and to international treaties for the protection of fundamental rights to which Member States were signatories or participants.9 Not surprisingly, the most important Treaty in this respect was the European Convention of Human Rights,10 and broadly speaking the Court of Justice has been willing to respect not only the Convention but also the guidance provided by the European Court of Human Rights.11

  197. Dr Jim says:

    In 2020 the BBC becomes a commercial tax collector with the power to decide how much the *Subscription licence tax* will be or what concessions it will decide to award or not to those who at that time cannot afford to pay for the new BBC tax corporation’s decisions on their finances

    At the moment concessions are paid for as a part of the DWP in 2020 that will cease with the transferring of *power* to the BBC to collect the new *subscription licence tax* to own a television

    The BBC state they cannot afford to continue the at present concessions for over 75s as this will cost them £645 million which they say is the maintainance cost of several of their BBC channels and would within another two years of that cost over £1 billion (Warning Will Robinson Warning Warning)

    The BBC state their position is that they cannot switch off the BBC to those who do not wish to pay for the BBC but they still require the money they have now to fund the BBC which they admit many people in the British Isles don’t want anyway, but that they, the BBC will continue to force this new power upon the British Isles until such time as they develop another funding model

    Given that the BBC claim to be a non commercial corporation (which is untrue) surely this decision to transfer *tax powers* *fund raising powers* *revenue stream* call it what you will has indeed proved the BBC are and will be a private corporation while at the same time claiming to be a part of the British government because they have been awarded tax raising powers

    If the BBC are not part of the British government then they must be a commercial organisation and the ability then for users of the BBC service must be that they can reject this service should they so choose must be brought to legal challenge

    The BBCs funding model from 2020 cannot be the responsibility of the public if the public do not wish it so

    BBC programming in one form or another is *sold* to almost 200 countries worldwide (That’s commercial) the people of those countries do not pay a subscription or a tax to the BBC which means effectively we pay to provide the BBC with the money to make programmes which the BBC then sell on to others, it begs the question then are the people of the British Isles not shareholders in the BBC and should be paid dividends from the profits of what always has been and is now proven to be a commercial company

  198. Cubby says:


    Tony Bliar. What laughable nonsense he comes out with – Alex Salmond stopped him from being Scottish – hard to believe an exUK PM could come out with such garbage – but then maybe not.

    Blair is your classic Scottish Britnat who wanted to be english and succeeded in conning people into thinking that he was English so he could win votes in England – that’s it. Just like he wasn’t a catholic until the day he left no.10. Blair the ultimate fraud and phoney – pretty much like the UK.

  199. Legerwood says:

    For anyone interested here are some figures for the workforce in NHS Scotland

    From ISD Scotland Workforce report for quarter ending December, 31st, 2018, published in March 2019. The numbers are headcount or Working Time Equivalent ( WTE)

    “”At 31 December 2018: • The number of staff directly employed by NHSScotland was 163,848, up 0.2% over the last year. The WTE of these staff has risen by 0.3% over the last year to 140,710.2. While there have been seven consecutive years of annual growth, the rate of overall growth has slowed. There is also variation across NHSScotland with 10 of the 22 Boards reporting a decrease in staff since December 2017.””

    “”There were 5,374.8 WTE medical and dental consultants in post, representing an annual increase of 3.1% (161.1 WTE). There were 7.2% (415.5 WTE) consultant posts vacant, compared to 7.4% (417.6 WTE) at 31 December 2017. Of these vacancies, 254.8 WTE were vacant for six months or more as at 31 December 2018, compared to 260.6 WTE the year before.

    • The WTE of qualified nursing and midwifery staff in post was 44,248.5 representing a 114.1 WTE (0.3%) annual increase. Over the same period, six territorial NHS Boards reported a reduction in qualified staff in post. Of nursing and midwifery posts requiring qualified staff, 5.1% (2,395.7 WTE) were vacant, compared to 4.3% (1,970.5 WTE) at 31 December 2017. 1.4% of posts (635.9 WTE) had been vacant for three months or more as at 31 December 2018.

    • There were 1,783 Health Visitors in post, equating to 1,554.7 WTE. Compared to last year, the number of staff in post has increased by 7%.

    • There were 9,976 WTE qualified allied health professions staff in post as at 31 December 2018, representing an annual increase of 1.9% (185.8 WTE). The number of vacant posts for qualified allied health professions is 513.4 WTE (4.9%), up from 371.7 WTE (3.7%) at 31 December 2017.””

  200. Colin Alexander says:


    Impressive letter but, maybe you should have avoided the term “dick wad”, even though it could also be deemed fair comment.

  201. Dr Jim says:

    Alex Salmond made me not Scottish, paraphrasing Tony Blairs words

    Well successive English governments have been doing that to Scottish people for more than 300 years

  202. Derek Rogers says:

    Mac @ 3.52

    For heavens’ sake, man, what are you complaining about? That post is a badge of pride, and a statement of everything we believe! Reblogging it on htpps://

  203. Ken500 says:

    The Guardian is a disgrace. The only paper of any freedom of editorial. The owners gave up £Millions to make it so. The delete and ban resosdible posts. There attitude to Scotland and Independence was despicable. Trolling Scotland.

    The have £1Billion in reserves and demand money from people. Oxbridge graduates getting wealthy on other people’s poverty.

  204. CameronB Brodie says:

    “Any clues?”
    Good post but the Guardian isn’t really a suitable publication in which to questions the probity of financial over-site in the UK, frankly.

    HSBC and the sham of Guardian’s Scott Trust

    Illicit financial flows: HSBC case study;

  205. Cubby says:


    A sad but true commentary.

    “I am deeply ashamed of this United Kingdom in its current state.”

    The only point I would make is that I would remove the words ” in its current state ” from the above sentence and insert a full stop.

  206. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 8 May, 2019 at 1:58 pm:

    ” … Robert Peffers, your behaviour is like an angry old style schoolmaster who would submit a pupil to degradation and humiliation in front of the whole class just for the “impertinence” of asking a question you couldn’t answer.
    You use your knowledge for power, and that isn’t meant as a compliment.”

    What a right load of tripe that is, Breeks. Mind you it is rather hilarious coming from a someone who has been preaching with the passion of an old style Wild West Gospel bible thumper against the vile sins of the FM/SG and SNP for, … (how long is it now)?

    I’ve done no more than truthfully point out that you have been here on Wings deliberately stirring up discontent for a very long time. Neither can you deny that not only has it been repeatedly pointed out to you that the FM, SG and SNP have all published their contact details on the web and that your complaints on open forums would have little effect, nor cause any changes, while commenting such complaints, (which, by the way are only your own opinions), on an open forum were doing much harm to the independence movement.

    Yet you still continued to do so. That is after attempting to make me seem like the bad guy. Often with downright lies, like the implications I though the SNP were never wrong, something I neither claimed nor implied. I always said to contact them directly which indicates I agreed they were not always right or why would I say to take your complaints directly to them?

    Furthermore this post I’m replying to shows you still would make me the villain of the piece instead of yourself and all the other constant complainers stirring up discontent. Can you wonder the more astute Wingers think you are Brigade 77 or some other unionist plants?

  207. Giving Goose says:


    I’m going to continue being as nice as I can.
    Do you think that we could start a petition to replace the current Duchess of Dumbarton with a new Duchess, one that wasn’t potentially morally corrupting to young people?

  208. Ken500 says:

    Spain population 46.7Million

    Scotland population 5.2Million

  209. Breastplate says:

    You have wasted your time and my time waffling about cr@p I didn’t comment on.

    @Robert Peffers says: 18 May, 2019 at 3:38pm:
    “ I’m full of my own self importance, second cousin to God…. Blaa….Blaa…you’re a troll…blaa….blaa, I’m a genius blaa’re stopping Scottish independence blaa blaa”

    Obviously, I’m paraphrasing but what you say has slightly less gravitas than a lumpy fart.

    So instead of a copy and paste about nothing in particular why don’t you explain to me and the other readers why you believe the mandate we currently have now doesn’t run out.

    I said the current mandate for an independence referendum runs out in 2021 while you claimed this is a lie.
    Tell everyone why you think it’s a lie.

  210. Ken500 says:

    The minor royals will be off to California.

  211. JMD says:

    Mac 3.52

    That they didn’t have the guts to post your comment tells you all you need to know about the Guardian, with its veneer of fake progressiveness. It’s simply a rag for middle class lefties where they can strut their right on stuff and convince themselves that they’re terribly, terribly smart (though at the back of their minds they’re as afraid of real change as much as any rabid british nationalist is) and if only those dumb plebs would vote how their Guardian reading betters want them to.

    But of course we here knew that anyway.

  212. Ken500 says:

    Any Party can get a continuing mandate. Voters just have to vote for it. Put it in a manifesto.

  213. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cubby says: 8 May, 2019 at 2:54 pm:

    ” … Quay for telling the truth. Then quickly I realise no actual figures were given in the Reporting Scotland report. Downplaying the difference by keeping the actual figures secret.

    Had the same thoughts on heads rolling, Cubby, but wherever it was I read it, they did quote the figures. I usually do remember but I read so many things at that time I just can’t tell where it was. Mind you I do know it was not the BBC but was quoting the item as a BBC report.

  214. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    If The Scottish Green Party really believed that the people of Scotland should “choose hope over hate” @Colin Alexander says at 3:40 pm then they wouldn’t have voted to repeal The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012

    Would they?

    Actions speak louder than words.

    Harvie and his mob emboldened the Knuckle Draggers when they sided with the British Nationalist Parties at Holyrood for political point scoring rather than doing the right thing by our communities and amending the Act.

    Lots of trying to split the Indy vote / don’t vote SNP at the forthcoming EU Elections, would that be because the SNP look likely to return 4 MEPs and Her Majesties BritNats don’t want that?

  215. Derek Rogers says:

    Dr Jim @ 3:46

    You say the BBC, from next year, will have the power to collect a “subscription licence tax” (in place of the present licence fee), and set the level itself. This is news to me, and of great concern. But it brings a further thought:-

    Under the Yes movement, the wee shoots of civil disobedience are appearing. Manny Singh’s actions in facilitating the last three AUOB marches are one example (see Gordon’s IndyCar report of yesterday), and the widespread refusal to pay the BBC licence fee is another. I applaud all these (with the caveat that they need to be calibrated not to cause harm to the vulnerable, and to attract rather than alienate potential supporters). And I suspect that civil disobedience will be a ploy that we shall need if (for example) we get no progress on an indyref by the time of the next Holyrood election in 2021, but an SNP majority. I don’t know who would lead this, and the Scottish Government clearly can’t (can they?), but it should be a tactic.

    So, obvs, don’t pay the new [fu*cking] fee. [Expletive deleted – my rules.]

  216. Cubby says:

    Cassandra = dahlia. Now that’s a very nice plant.

  217. Legerwood says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    8 May, 2019 at 4:29 pm
    @Cubby says: 8 May, 2019 at 2:54 pm:
    As usual the full figures for GP numbers plus graphs are on the BBC Scotland news website plus, of course, the mandatory ‘buts’

  218. Cubby says:


    Not trying to harass you or anything like that as I am being very very nice these days but you will have noticed that the Stirling march has been removed from this years AUOB march locations. Is it because of the route that the council forced on the route – I don’t know.

    I asked in a previous post whether or not you were on that march to see if you understood how a council that is anti independence could impact on the march. Care to let me know your thoughts.

  219. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander = bluebells – a very nice plant than is common in Scotland. A favourite of Rangers football club fans.

  220. Robert Louis says:

    Cubby at 341pm,

    I was not at the Glasgow march, but did see keith at the Bannockburn march last year. In the past, I have even met NS at one of the Edinburgh marches at Calton hill, although she didn’t to my recollection speak. That was when the indy campaign was underway.

    I just really question that she cann attend marches for other causes such as gay pride or brexit referendum 2, but cannot see fit to attend indy marches, that’s all. I really don’t buy the tosh about how she is first minister and elected to serve all of Scotland’s people etc… I repeatedly saw Alex Salmond as First Minister, not only attend indy marches, but speak at them – to huge applause.

    Anyway, we might as well all give up this dream of Scottish independence, as, according the Labour MP, Paul Sweeney, London generates all the wealth, and Scotland receives a generous 10 billion fiscal transfer from London, so does rather well.

    Of course I and others here, know all of what Paul has said to be utter baloney. It is old tired nonsense, that has been shown to be pseudo-economic bunkum, over and over again. I do wonder if Paul Sweeney truly believes what he says, or if he just does it to score points against the ‘hated nats’. I do still find it strange that intelligent people in Scotland still think an economy as wealthy, and oil rich as Scotland’s is somehow dependent upon London’s ‘largesse’ and ‘generosity’ to survive.

    I do not doubt for one second that is what London SAYS it does, but of course the figures are not transparent, and as we all know, gers is meaningless, and an exercise in keeping Scots thinking they are too poor for independence.

    I mean, seriously, Paul Sweeney, do you seriously believe the Tories willingly send an additional 10 billion to Scotland every year, just out of some kind of loving generosity or charity?? Think about it. I mean, really. Get a grip, man.

  221. @CameronB Brodie,

    i was always under the belief that the Guardian was owned by a Trust,

    in fact it is a limited company,

    `The Scott Trust Limited is the English company that owns Guardian Media Group and thus the Guardian and the Observer as well as various other media businesses in the UK. In 2008, it replaced the Scott Trust, which had owned the Guardian since 1936.`

  222. Dr Jim says:

    @Derek Rodgers 4:39pm

    I watched the debate in the HOC today, the SNP were furious over the decision to remove the over 75 concessionary reduction enabling the BBC to charge the full £154 odds pushing many thousands of state benefit pensioners into poverty, and of course the meanness behind what the Tories are doing which is to push the collection and responsibility onto the BBC to make it appear as though it’s not a Tory decision like they did with the Waspi women

    When there’s votes involved make it look like somebody else did it,then again the BBC might not do it they might just hike the tax on everybody else to make up the shortfall spreading the cost of reduction between everybody else whether you want to view the BBC or not

    The Tories have given the power to the BBC to act as a tax collector while at the same time making them a private tax collector, like roadside parking clampers it’s blackmail tax with totally dubious legality

  223. Petra says:

    @ misteralz says at 1:39 pm …. ”Petra, he was a skipper and a yesser. He knew fine well. ?”

    Pleased to hear that misteralz. He knew ”fine well” just as the rest of the planet knows … fine well … other than the UK. Minus Westminster that is.


    @ call me dave says at 3:09 pm …. ”Mind you this has to be tempered with what I was reading in the cafe, on a left behind Daily Mail, that the ENHS is in a meltdown crisis due to “EU migrant staff leaving in their droves”

    And yet have you ever noticed, call me dave, that when experts are being questioned on television, as was the case earlier today, Brexit is never mentioned? The ”’expert” doctor who was on this morning went on about doctors working from 8am to 8pm, and so on, and being burnt out. You just wonder if it’s another case of editing out the truth or are they selecting doctors that are Tory lackeys to con their viewers ?


    @ Mac at 3:52pm ….. ”Banned by the Guardian.”…

    The truth, especially when presented in such an articulate and profound way, just sticks in their craw, Mac, in particular when it comes from a Scot.

  224. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Mac @ 15:52,

    Oh, where is heedy when you need him? He used to expound at length about how far from grace his (and my) old paper had fallen. During IR, some of its correspondents did step up to the journalistic mark but the toxic Labourite self-entitlement of the others was quite an eye-opener. A complete betrayal of a proud radical tradition. Since then as far as indy is concerned, it has been overtaken by the same kind of southern exceptionalism as all the others. Just another cornflake/washing powder rebranding tactic of the self-serving English Establishment.

    Little wonder then that reminding it of a bunch of salient home truths wasn’t too welcome.

  225. stu mac says:

    @ Scot Finlayson says:
    8 May, 2019 at 5:04 pm

    That could explain the decline in the quality of the Guardian and its move towards supporting the establishment view (with a pseudo left wing slant) in the last decade or so.

  226. boris says:

    In an illegal and late intervention, only days before the referendum and well within the purgatory period Gordon Brown promised nothing less than a modern form of Scottish Home Rule and as close to a federal state as the UK could be. That was the context for the extensive new powers promised in the Vow. Author’s comment:(Brown’s illegal and heavily promoted by the BBC, game changing intervention was apparently condoned by the Electoral Commission)

    Consultation and a greater role for Scottish ministers on negotiations with the European Union, allowing Scottish Government ministers to speak on behalf of all of the UK at the Council of Ministers in Europe.

    The Scottish Government is to have a role in reviewing the BBC’s charter and the BBC – vilified in the referendum campaign by nationalists – will have to answer to the Scottish Parliament’s committees.

  227. Dr Jim says:

    All this moaning about the FM not fronting Independence marches, I entirely don’t blame her for not doing so, with a hundred thousand people or so milling around all over the place and the threats to her life from Unionist nutters it’s an impossibility to protect her now in those circumstances

    The FM has in the past attended lots of demos and put herself at risk but now the risk is too great for her to be in the street with marchers, the only way she could attend these things now would be to be brought in under protection to a staged area like she did in London and make her speech and leave, and had anyone taken a good look both sides of that stage in the wings were armed close protection officers such is how great the threat is to her life, not from the British government probably because that would make her a Martyr,the threat is from from idiot punters geed up by idiots like Ruth Davidson with her no surrender Ulsterisation rhetoric, I’m not sure if folk realise how mentally unstable Ruth Davidson actually is

    It’s not difficult to kill anyone so why give the Unionists a free gift, of course there are some advocating for that very thing to happen

    For goodness sake Theresa May and the Tories place snipers on roofs and surround their conference venues with legions of armed cops, the days when Scotland’s FM could just stroll down the road with just the public for company are over, it’s too dangerous and right thinking people should already know that

    Would anyone want their own daughter sister or wife in the FMs position to expose herself to what is now a real danger

    I wouldn’t, she’s already given 30 years of her life to Independence how much more does anybody expect or want from her

  228. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says: 8 May, 2019 at 3:08 pm:

    ” … You don’t seem to realise, but it’s exactly this kind of dismissive and unseemly response – which you are all too ready to condemn in others – which gives rise to the very suspicions you claim are unwarranted. Not to mention your other favourite ploy of telling everyone that if they have any disagreement with the SNP they should stay schtum on here and bring it up “through the usual channels”.”

    Oh! For the love of Pete! Not yet another one?

    I’m tired of defending myself today but I’ll point out something to you. The idea of NOT voicing such dissent on open forums is that it is manna from heaven to the unionists and their tame churnalists.

    ” … Which raises the obvious implied awkward question: “if this is so all-important, why is the SNP not pushing it for all it’s worth … “

    Eh! Where did you get the notion that they do not, Robert?

    Do they not always stress the point that they must have a majority? Why do you imagine that Nicola puts so much stress upon mandates from the electorate? A mandate from the electorate is gaining the pledge of the people of Scotland’s legal sovereignty. Let’s try and clear things up a bit, shall we?

    Way back in 1320 the entire area of Christendom was under the rule of law of, “Divine Right of Kings”, or in other words, “The God given right to rule”. The top man was thus the head of God’s Church, The Holy Roman See and the head of that was the Pope, (no sectarianism back then).

    It was under this Rule of Law that the King Edward I of England, was asked to help but he tried to subjugate the Kingdom of Scotland, (remember the Ragman Rolls)?

    For a time Edward did manage to have Scotland under his rule by appointing John Balliol as King of Scotland but Balliol had to. “bend the Knee”, to Edward. That didn’t last long and the problem of who would be king began again.

    Then came the dispute over the crown and the death of The Red Comyn. This didn’t stop King Edward’s attempts, though. Edward influenced the Pope to excommunicate King Robert and this was disaster for Scotland because under Divine Right of Kings the king owned everything and all his subjects which meant all Scotland was shunned are barred from trading with anyone.

    Which brings us to, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, and Scotland, as usual, leading the World into a new form of Sovereignty that many areas of the World are still to adopt. The idea, of course, was to get Scotland out of trouble of the excommunication.

    The Declaration stated that the Scottish Monarch was not sovereign as the people were and being sovereign they could sack the king and appoint another in his place. Furthermore the monarch’s job was Protector of the People’s Sovereignty.

    Thing is that it is only a little before my birth that the Geneva Convention and then the United Nations took up the idea of the people, not either kings or governments, being sovereign.

    Anyway the natural rules are that sovereignty belongs to whoever can enforce it but ultimately the people are naturally sovereign because no power can remain sovereign unless the people allow them to be.

    This is why Nicola insists upon mandates from a majority of the electorate before going for Scottish Independence. Neither Westminster, Holyrood or the SNP are sovereign and the only way Scotland can regain independence is, (to lay it on the line), for the people to reclaim their legal right of sovereignty.

    That is no one can reclaim Scottish independence but the people of Scotland. If you think about it the only party leader in the United Kingdom that doesn’t act like either a dictator or a wannabe dictator is Nicola Sturgeon.

    There you have the point. It is the SNP asking the legally sovereign people to lend their sovereign right to the Scottish Government to hold a referendum on whether the people want the SG to end the union. It is not about getting the people’s permission to end the union.

  229. me thms says:

    Colin Alexander at 3:40 pm

    There are plenty of Green MEPs in the parliament of the European Union.

    I would prefer six SNP MEPs to remind the EU that Scotland wants to remain.

  230. Colin Alexander says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker

    I’m no a rep for the Greens but as I understand it, they voted to repeal the Offensive Behaviour law because despite it being a well-intentioned law, it was judged to be a poorly written piece of legislation that tarred all fitba fans with the same brush.

    It is still against the law to threaten or abuse:

    Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010

    A person (“A”) commits an offence if—

    (a)A behaves in a threatening or abusive manner,

    (b)the behaviour would be likely to cause a reasonable person to suffer fear or alarm, and

    (c)A intends by the behaviour to cause fear or alarm or is reckless as to whether the behaviour would cause fear or alarm.

    But that’s just Holyrood Green whitabootery. I was talking Euro elections.

    I could also do SNP whitabootery, but being positive, I won’t bother.


    There should be a pro-Scotland in EU alliance instead of splitting the pro-indy SNP and Green votes.

  231. Colin Alexander says:


    That’s nice for you if you or anyone else on here is a Rangers supporter or Celtic or Partick Thistle etc.

    I’m no here to have a go at people over their fav fitba team.

    We should all be getting away from mixing fitba with politics.

  232. Petra says:

    @ Cubby says at 4:53 pm …. ”Petra – you will have noticed that the Stirling march has been removed from this years AUOB march locations. Is it because of the route that the council forced on the route – I don’t know. I asked in a previous post whether or not you were on that march to see if you understood how a council that is anti independence could impact on the march. Care to let me know your thoughts.”

    I’ve been really busy Cubby and haven’t heard anything about the Stirling march at all. I had heard that one had been cancelled by AUOB … Inverness? … rather to be held in Oban. Seemingly AUOB’s choice. I wasn’t at the Stirling march so have no idea what the route was like. So no thoughts on that. Neither do I have access to the Meeting Reports relating to any other march than that of Glasgow this year. If you really want such information what about contacting the organisor, Manny Singh, and / or Stirling Council? Sorry I can’t help.

  233. Robert Peffers says:

    @Colin Alexander says: 8 May, 2019 at 3:52 pm:

    ” … It can be argued all of Scotland’s MPs and MSPs commit treason against the people of Scotland by swearing allegiance to the Queen instead of to the sovereign people of Scotland.”

    Aye! Colin and it can be argued that it is a right load of claptrap. The reason it is claptrap is because Scotland has a Queen of Scots and as such she is legally the leader, if not in fact, of the people of Scotland with the duty of protecting the people’s sovereignty. A job she seems to have neglected.

    ” … I believe Scotland’s politicians should in future refuse to swear such an oath and instead swear allegiance to serve the sovereign people of Scotland, then fight this as a test case that highlights Scotland’s people’s sovereignty if barred from serving the people.”

    Not correct, Colin, under such as Robert Bruce the Scots supported the King of Scots as their chosen Leader. If there was to be a rebellion of Scots MPs it would still be illegal because the Scots MPs are delegated to use the people’s sovereignty but would need the people’s mandate in order to refuse to aver their allegiance to the Queen of Scots.

    As they would also need the people’s mandate in order to do. as it states in the Declaration of Arbroath, dismiss the Queen for not doing her job and to appoint another in her place.

  234. Petra says:

    STV reporting earlier on Stevie Chalmer’s funeral. The reporter described the Lisbon Lions as the ”notorious Lisbon Lions”. Is that the norm? Is there a reason for that, that I’m not aware of? I would have thought that she would have described them as being ”famous”, ”fabulous” or whatever, rather than notorious. It can mean popular but is usually used in place of words like disreputable.

  235. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breastplate says:8 May, 2019 at 4:26 pm:

    True colours coming out I see. Hilarious!

  236. mr thms says:

    To avoid splitting the pro-indy vote, it would better for the Scottish Greens to embrace the union.

    If that does not massively increase support for independence to more than 60%, nothing else will.

  237. geeo says:

    Robert Louis @5.01pm

    “I just really question that she cann attend marches for other causes such as gay pride or brexit referendum 2, but cannot see fit to attend indy marches”

    You just cannot help yourself, can you ?

    “SNP/FM BAD” is yet again your British Nationalist mantra.

    Fooling nobody.

  238. remo says:

    @ The Tree of Liberty 1.07

    Norway does have food banks. This information is easy to find on the net. Norway’s food banks seem to perform two functions. They catch the people who fall through the cracks in their system e.g. drug users. I fear there will always be folk who fall through the cracks in any system. Norway, I think, also has agreements about food wastage and the food banks allow companies to redistribute food which would otherwise go to waste. The companies therefore fulfil their duties re. food wastage. Norway’s food banks kill two birds with the one stone. I have heard Britnats using the Norway food bank argument as though it justifies the food banks in Scotland or as though it proves that rich Norway is heartless or failing. It doesn’t.

  239. CameronB Brodie says:

    More on the unhealthy involvement of HSBC in British public discourse. This isn’t news btw, this has been British practice all the way back to the first Opium War with China. Ever felt like you’ve been played for a sucker?

    Death, drugs, and HSBC
    Fraudulent blood money makes the world go round

    Recent reporting on illegal tax evasion by the world’s second largest bank, HSBC, opens a window onto the pivotal role of Western banks in facilitating organised crime, drug-trafficking and Islamist terrorism. Governments know this, but they are powerless to act, not just because they’ve been bought by the banks: but because criminal and terror financing is integral to global capitalism.

    Now one whistleblower who uncovered an estimated billion pounds worth of HSBC fraud in Britain, suppressed by the British media, is preparing a prosecution that could blow wide open the true scale of criminal corruption in the world’s finance capital.

  240. remo says:

    @ Mac 3.52

    Great letter. Please may I copy it and use it as ammunition?

  241. Old Pete says:

    Maybe Nicola could address the rally in Ayr in July, or might she be to busy again. The SNP exist to fight for and regain Scotland its Independence, some of the hierarchy in the party should start to reinforce this. Attendance at the marches would be a good place for them to show this.

  242. Breastplate says:

    That’s right Peffers,
    I get it, you’ve outed me, I’m an evil Unionist troll and you worked that out by your intellectual evasion of my obvious and unfair Unionist question.

    Stick to history Robert, you’re better at that.

  243. Welsh Sion says:

    For information purposes.

    Pawb Dan Un Faner (= All Under One Banner), the Welsh equivalent of AUOB, are holding the first ever rally for Welsh Independence in Caerdydd/Cardiff from 1.30 pm on Saturday 11 May 2019.

    Speakers will include Adam Price AC/AM, the Leader of Plaid Cymru, Ben Gwalchmai from Labour for Independence, Sion Jobbins, the Chair of YES Cymru, Sandra Clubb from Undod (the equivalent of Radical Independence) and the poet Ali Goolyad.

    More info here:

  244. jfngw says:

    When Scotland joined the union it had no debt as a country, England was in debt at the time. After 312 years we are now told the majority of the deficit is due to Scotland and the other two devolved countries and England has virtually no deficit. The success of the union is there to see, Scotland has become poorer under Westminster control (it had no debt, now it is allocated debt).

  245. jfngw says:

    Good grief, here is another politician claiming not to know what words mean. Maybe instead of all this diversity training a course in basic English (although trash used in this context is really an Americanism) is required for all politicians, or even just instructions on how to use a dictionary.

  246. Lanarkist says:

    Mac @ 3.32 Great post on here and in the Gruniad. I see nothing ‘wrong’ with it nor offensive or false, just my truth too, although I am lucky to still have my Son living here in Scotland.
    Only thing I can think of as a reason for banning you and Removing your post is that it contains too much of the truth and the essence of morality, two good reasons for corrupt Media Editors to get the tremors. Can’t be having that now, some might get ideas above their station.
    All aboard!

  247. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Cubby at 3.41pm

    Both Keith Brown MSP and Sandra White MSP spoke at the Glasgow Green rally on Saturday. My MP was in the march

  248. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Flags flags flags. Got a supply of 5ft X 3ft Saltire flags in again including ones with the Euro stars (with sleeve and eyelets). Will post one to you for £4 (p&p included) or collect at the Forward Shop Dunoon. Cheques made out to “YES Cowal” at Forward, 186 Argyll Street,Dunoon PA23 7HA

  249. mr thms says:

    A lot of money to spend on something that is intended to be temporary?

    “The proposed temporary chamber will be similar to the current one, complete with leather benches and an adversarial layout, but will be more accessible.

    Under plans opened for consultation, nearby buildings will be improved and a six-storey office block for MPs constructed at an estimated cost of £1.4bn to £1.6bn”

  250. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Old Pete at 6.51

    Both Keith Brown MSP, SNP deputy leader and Sandra White MSP spoke at the Glasgow Green rally on Saturday. My MP was in the march

  251. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Peffers @ 17:48,

    Oh for the love of Mike returned with knobs on. A little self-awareness would go a long way, but oh no – on and on you blunder, oblivous to what everyone else can see (but not all remark upon). All the while doing a great disservice to the party you claim to espouse by patronisingly alienating potential allies and supporters. Burying your obtuseness under mountains of irrelevant dross doesn’t hide the reality.

    But here’s a challenge for you, Mr Know-it-all: just give us one concrete example of how the SG or the SNP have made any actual practical deployment of your effusive sovereignity theories? Just one practical instance. The Lord Advocate dodged it when he had the ideal opportunity at the SC, and the nearest we got was when a group of freebooters (two of whom happened to be SNP but acting on their own initiative) took the Art.50 revocation case all the way to the ECJ.

    We’ve been forced to endure being serially trampled over by the worst UKGov in living memory yet otherwise not a damn peep. So much for your precious theorising. The SNP leadership are not listening to your blawbaggery. (Probably for good reason.)

    And the bottom line is that you just can’t bear it when anyone reminds us of that staringly obvious fact.

  252. jfngw says:

    If you believe Scotland’s place is in the EU then the only sensible vote is the SNP, no matter how upset they have made some people in the last week, any other vote will be declared as a vote for the union (sorry Greens but that’s the case in these elections).

    If you want out of the EU and independence then you will have to vote for one of the cornucopia of Brexit parties (Lab, Tory, LibDem – they support Brexit above independence, Brexit Party, UKIP). But good luck thinking you have any chance of achieving independence after voting for them.

  253. jfngw says:

    You have to laugh

    I believe the second medal from the right is for bravery during a particularly challenging edit at his production company.

  254. chicmac says:


    An absolute stonker. Copy it on to the WGD comments,ditto Craig Murray’s site, the more folk that read it the better.

  255. jfngw says:

    I wonder if they will be Educating Archie at Eton. The best ever radio ventriloquist act, I never saw his lips move.

  256. jfngw says:

    David Mundell has made it clear there has been no impropriety that resulted in his MP’s credit card being suspended. I believe he is willing to ask Alistair Carmichael to vouch for his integrity.

  257. Petra says:

    @ Robert Louis at 5.01pm .. “I just really question that she can attend marches for other causes such as gay pride or brexit referendum 2, but cannot see fit to attend indy marches.”

    Well over and above the safety issues that have been pointed out by Dr Jim already, there’s also the risk of her being personally castigated by the MSM for any little (or big) altercation that takes place, accidentally but more so deliberately. I can just see it, Nicola Sturgeon’s face plastered all over the front page of newspapers with the perpetrator’s face alongside. The headline reading (or make up your own), ”Nicola Sturgeon leading her bunch of Independence thugs.” On the other hand if anything untoward had to happen at a Brexit or Pride rally it wouldn’t be pinned on her. That’s the difference, imo.

    We are getting ever closer to getting our Independence, so why not let her get on with her job / s and we’ll get on with ours, such as by raising the numbers supporting Independence? The other thing to consider, of course, is that AUOB marches have nothing to do with the SNP at all, hence the name ”All Under One Banner”, which is inclusive of people who want Independence but support / have supported other political parties, including the Tories. Would they want to see Nicola Sturgeon stealing the thunder? Meanwhile every march that I’ve attended has had SNP politicians marching amongst us, not out in front, and that’s good enough for me.

  258. Petra says:

    @ jfngw says at 8:13 pm… ”You have to laugh. I believe the second medal from the right is for bravery during a particularly challenging edit at his production company.”

    You have to laugh right enough, jfngw. All of that regalia alongside a strange looking sporran. Looks as though he’s covering himself for every possible eventuality! Like if I bump into a German, a Scot etc.

    What’s not quite so funny is seeing really poor looking people on the television swooning over a new Royal baby, who’s mother has been wearing one outfit after another each of which costs £thousands, plus the £3 million revamp to their home … and the rest. I just don’t get it. Being brainwashed doesn’t even begin to explain it, imo.

  259. jfngw says:

    Nicola Sturgeon, as First Minister as well as SNP leader, is not going to attend any marches until there is an active independence campaign. The reason she attends Brexit or PV marches, whether you agree with them or not, is because these are active events currently.

    There is no conspiracy here, it is a limitation placed on you if you are First Minister. It may be hard to swallow but that’s just the way things are.

  260. Lenny Hartley says:

    Just read Kevin McKenna’s article in the National May 8th. I have been critical of him in the past , however, he hit the nail on the head with this one. If your reading this , thanks Kevin.

  261. jfngw says:


    It is unfathomable, if I behaved like that I would be worrying about my mental health. Of course I have a feeling it’s not reciprocated and they have the same opinion of these people as Mhairi Hunter has of some of us.

  262. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “whats wrong with it.”? @Mac says at 3:52 pm

    Absolutely nothing wrong with it from my point of view Mac, bang on the money.

    A fine example of “the passion” that The WGD says “that will drive us during the campaign that is ahead”.

  263. ronnie anderson says:

    Is It Archie or Erchie lol

  264. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    OK; this comment may be longer than I anticipate, because I’m addressing a number of points from today’s comments.

    Point 1.
    As an aside, I will point out that it was Winnie Ewing’s victory at Hamilton that created an SNP supporter in this human. I then spent the next two years doodling the SNP logo on my school jotters.

    In 1970, I was able to vote as an 18-year-old. No SNP candidate so, having seen the mess that Labour had made in the previous 4 years, I voted conservative, because there was no SNP candidate in my constituency. (Liberals were quaint but would never form a government, so dismissed.)

    Around 1972, I voted in my first council election. Once again, no SNP candidate so I voted Labour.

    Then came 1974. I was able to vote SNP in both elections that year and have continued to vote SNP at every general election since. When the Scottish Parliament was reconvened in 1999, I was able to vote SNP and have done so at every Holyrood election since.

    In local council elections since 1974, I have voted Labour, Lib-Dem and SNP but I should point out that my votes were cast for the candidates on a personal level, rather than politically.

    I joined the SNP in the early 90s (as a mature student), because working as a DJ, one of my punters was an enthusiastic SNP member and promoter (Hi Mags!) and persuaded me to join at the student rate, £5 annually. I let membership lapse after a couple of years.

    In May 2014, I attended my first “friends of WOS” get-together in Broughty Ferry, organised by Alex Clark, ‘Thepnr’. I think I have been to every WOS get-together since. Pete and I first did badges for the WOS stall at Arbroath Seafest in August 2014, once again, organised and financed by Thepnr. I was one of the WOS observer team, put together by Tartan Tory, at the Angus count in Arbroath, over the night of 18th/19th September 2014.

    I rejoined the SNP around the end of September 2014 and have been a member ever since.

    So I can wear two hats – my SNP hat and my WOS hat. In this current phase (since 2014), I have been a ’Winger’ longer than I have been a member of the SNP. So, which gets priority?

    It should be obvious that not all btl commenters here are SNP members. This is a public forum. therefore there will be non-SNP members posting comments, inspired by Rev Stu’s article on whichever page. Thus, IMHO, it is not appropriate for anyone btl to criticise other btl commenters, because those commenters infer a lack of enthusiasm to “get on with it” on the part of the SNP hierarchy and publish their concerns here.

    Fair enough, SNP members can raise issues at branch meetings but non-SNP members can’t. These commenters toss stuff into the mix here, to stimulate debate. To paraphrase Spike Milligan; “Throw it in the curry”, then we’ll see how it tastes, with a random mixture of ingredients.

    I see a number of long-time WOS commenters being castigated for daring to question the SNP’s approach to the struggle for Scottish independence. Why shouldn’t they question, if they are unhappy because of their perception of the SNP’s “road map” to independence? Why, as Yessers, should they be expected to join the SNP and raise their concerns at branch meetings? Public forum; public discussion. Just keep it clean.

    Point 2.

    Footsoldier made a good point at 10:11 am today, regarding pro-indy (SNP?) people on TV chats.
    “Let us say the topic is Trident and a question has been asked of the indy representative who knows they will be outnumbered and shot down “good question – with the UK having the lowest pension in western Europe I wonder about our priorities but to turn to your question …..”.

    Wouldn’t it be great if SNP and Green MSPs and SNP MPs started using these wee soundbites like that at every opportunity?

    Point 3.

    If a political party campaigns in an election campaign, as the SNP did in 2016, with a manifesto that says,
    the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is “clear and sustained evidence” that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a “significant and material” change in circumstances, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will”, then that party has the mandate for as long as long as there is pro-indy majority in the parliament. If the parliament goes along with that, ‘everything’s alright’.

    Following an election for Holyrood in 2021, if pro-unionist parties have a majority, they can overturn any mandate agreed to by the previous parliament, thus the mandate to have an independence referendum is dead in the water. The 2016-2021 mandate is not forever more.

    Point 4.

    The sovereignty of Scots was reaffirmed in The Declaration of Arbroath. It was not suddenly created with that declaration. Sovereignty was mentioned in the Act of The Clergy in 1309/1310 – “common folk and people” – “plebs et populus”.

    That was the way Scotland had been, constitutionally, for at least a couple of hundred years. As far as I know, there is no older document in existence that mentions “plebs et populus”. It was the way Scots ran things, mentioned in 1309/10 and reaffirmed in 1320.

    (Thanks to Wull for mentioning the Act of The Clergy, a while ago.)

  265. Mad Unionist says:

    Brian, Doonthetoon @ 9.08pm. To put it briefly you dabled in political views and eventually turned your back on the poor and working class. So much for being a mature student. You are now right wing Tartan Tory whose party helped give Thatcher power. You no doubt hide your shame well with your gift of the gab.

  266. Petra and Cubby

    The ‘Stirling’ March – which is actually the annual March to Bannockburn is happening as usual on the nearest Saturday to the actual date of the Battle 23/24 June 1314.

    So, this year the Bannockburn Rally will occur on Saturday the 22nd June. Assemble at 13.00 leave at 13.30 sharp from the King’s Park( Victoria Road) – same start point as the AUOB march last year.
    However, it then follows the route out to the main road (unlike last year) and follows the St.Ninian’s Road, Newhouse, Randolph Terrace, Main Street, Mc Grigor Road, Craigend Road, Barnsdale Road, Newpark Road, Nailer Road, Borestone Place and Borestone Field.

    The first half is different from last year but after Mc Grigor Road, it snakes up through the houses to the Field same as usual.

    Don’t think they expect it to be that big!

  267. yesindyref2 says:

    @Mad Unionist
    I study the work of the unionist at times, and from the way you immediately attack BDTT’s posting, clearly you regard it as a threat. So I recommend everyone reads his posting:

  268. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hello Mad Unionist!

    Your comments are sh!t and will be consigned to the wheely bin of historical trash.

    No offence…

  269. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Y’ken, fae the wye ‘Mad Unionist’ took hud o’ a certain phrase within my comment, “Tartan Tory”, I would suspect it is a bot.

    Mad Unionist – 2 questions:

    1. What is the difference between a duck?

    2. What is the difference between the other duck?

    Take your time to go through your algorithms…

  270. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @BDTT –

    Hear hear, esp to Point 1.


    Mad Unionist – away an take yer face fur a shite, eh?

  271. Eric McLean says:

    @remo 6.39pm

    Thanks. Absolutely. Of course.

  272. Phronesis says:

    London doesn’t really distribute the wealth to other regions. Most of the wealth swirls around its financial district before it’s secretly laundered, it’s certainly not distributed for the benefit of London’s children. Scotland the country (not the region) doesn’t require London’s patronage, it can manage its own economy and wealth distribution, one of many reasons to support an Independent Scotland.

    ‘We can’t afford incremental change when babies are dying and old people are stuck in hospital to despair and die, as if there is not enough money for health and social care. The UK is the fifth-largest economy in the world and so of course it can choose to provide excellent public services and a generous social security safety net if it wants to. All it has to do is stop allowing the richest to continue to extract disproportionate income and wealth by taxing them properly’

    ‘London has the highest rate of child poverty of any English region.
    – There are 700,000 children – or 37 per cent of all children in London – living in relative poverty after you have taken housing costs into account.
    – While poverty rates are higher for everyone in London than nationally, this gap is larger for children than for any other group.
    – There are as many poor children in London as in all of Scotland and Wales’

    ‘The City’s money markets clean up an estimated £90 billion of illicit funds each year’

    ‘London has not become the global capital of money laundering by accident. Money launderers and those financing terrorist activities have two main requirements. The first is a place crowded with financial transactions, in which their own will be easy to lose. The second is a place where those who enable the setting up of companies and opening of bank accounts are prepared to turn a blind eye to who is the owner of a business. Secrecy over the beneficial ownership of companies is the main conduit of money laundering’

  273. yesindyref2 says:

    Seems a good time to throw this in:

    The thousands of ordinary people across Scotland who dedicate their time to helping us gain independence are our greatest asset. Let’s support them, not talk them down: (link to McKenna’s article)

    and the replies on that thread.

    A trio of eejits screwed things up this weekend, and upset a lot of people. One of the 3 has attempted to make some amends, the other 2 in their arrogance, not.

    Quite a few people are now pointing out that we have to work together for the sake of Indy, sh1t happens, put it aside. This is correct, but “SNP Baaaad” silly kneejerks like the usual suspect on this thread don’t help.

    What would help more is pointing out that NONE of the 3 twits stand to lose themselves, one is MD of something Indy and gets paid anyway, 1 is an MP and not up for election, and the other is number 1 on the SNP MEP candidate list and unless SNP support drops below 13% will be elected.

    Not so the 4th on the list, Margaret Ferrier, who WAS on the march, SPOKE on stage, and is an enthusiastic YESser. She is one of us.

    For her sake we should all come together, ignore the trio of SNP self-righteous foolish twits, and help get her elected in the EU elections.

  274. Sinky says:

    BBC National News at 10 fail to point out in their headlines that the position regarding GPs is much much better in Scotland.

    They Mention it later on but no figures to show how much better it is under Scotland’s separate NHS.

  275. Ken500 says:

    @ Phronesis

    ( : > )

  276. CameronB Brodie says:

    Mad Unionist
    That makes absolutely no sense. I could counter by informing you that the Prime-minister is working for SMERSH, and it would contain the same lack of reason and logic as your fantasy.

  277. ronnie anderson says:

    BDTT tell that arseholy that Tartan Tory comes fae Aberdeen no Dundee

  278. Mad Unionist says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 10:11pm. Just watch it Cameron I am David McCullumn alias some Russian name. My pal Napoleon fae Uncle is behind me.

  279. Cubby says:

    Dave McEwan Hill@7.44pm

    Yes and Brown/ White and other MSPs were there last year at the Glasgow march. White spoke at Glasgow Green last year as well.

    Also saw other SNP people at Edinburgh last year.

    So why the obsession with Sturgeon not being there at marches by some peeps. I really don’t care if Sturgeon or other SNP people attend or not to be honest. To my mind it is the people of Scotland stating they want independence. Sturgeon can make her own decisions as to what marches to attend. She attended the Waspi march in Glasgow – so good on her.

    Dr Jim posted some good comments on this earlier.

  280. Ken500 says:

    The SNP members fund the Independence Movement, without the SNP & the members their would be no Independence Movement.

    That is why the SNP Gov is so successful. It is funded by the menbers to make good economic decisions. Ordinary people who care about others and the place that they live in. The funding from the membership allows the Party elected into governance make the right decisions. Without fear or favour. Without having to worry about other factions, They produce a manifesto and try to stick to it. That is why people trust them and vote for them. Not renege on every promise before the ink has dried. The unionist deceitful way. Lie to get elected then renege.

    The absolute Brexit mess is just a scandal. For any politician to carrying on in such a way is disasterous. Appalling behaviour. Lie, after lie, after lie.

  281. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Can we all calm down. We are getting all worked up about peripheral issues and doing the unionist’s work for them by promoting them into damaging arguments.
    Do you think anybody at the bus stop gives a toss about the invented plague of cybernattery?They’ve never heard of it.
    Manny Singh defied the police and the Edinburgh City Council last year then lied bout it. And got away with it. He did the same in Glasgow this year and he has been pulled up. Big deal.
    Why did he do it? To promote himself as a revolutionary. Not helpful. Let’s see what the PF says and does but none of this is useful.

  282. Ken500 says:

    Nicola is FM for the whole of Scotland. There is a code of conduct to follow. This is what she does. Follow the code. She is busy with Govenment affairs. Pretty busy. She is leader of the Party. Two hats. Different roles.

    Once an IndyRef is called she can get more involved.

  283. Cubby says:

    Mad British Nationalist I would like to explain it to you in a simple nice and easy colouring book style as to why you are a Brtish Nationalist but it’s pointless as you are clearly an imbecile on Wings to disrupt.

    That’s as nice as I can be to someone who is clearly posting to offend. Mad British Nationalist is a perfect example of the hypocrisy of the Herald and all those other hypocrites who complain about Cybernats who support independence being offensive. The Britnat Cybernats are by far the worse. They are on regular display on Wings eg Jezza, Danny etc etc

  284. Mad Unionist says:

    Cubby @ 10:30pm. You have to explain your own existence on the Planet Earth and how you evolved from sperm to posting on Wings.

  285. Robert Peffers says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon says: 8 May, 2019 at 9:08 pm:

    ” … It should be obvious that not all btl commenters here are SNP members. This is a public forum. therefore there will be non-SNP members posting comments, inspired by Rev Stu’s article on whichever page. Thus, IMHO, it is not appropriate for anyone btl to criticise other btl commenters, because those commenters infer a lack of enthusiasm to “get on with it” on the part of the SNP hierarchy and publish their concerns here.”

    I’m away back to lurking for I’m fed up wasting my time but before I go let me make somethings clear to you that you probably should have been aware of.

    It is obvious you are having a wee dig at me here so allow me to correct you on a couple of points that you probably should have noticed.

    The first is that I’m very well aware all Wings posters are not SNP members nor was the points I was making just a defence of the SNP, it was a defence of the independence movement. Not once did I ever claim that the FM, SG or SNP were incapable of making mistakes. The point was, and I said it often enough, it harms the Independence movement,

    The second point is that no one needs be a member of the SNP, or anything else for that matter, to communicate their complaints, (or their compliments), directly to the FM, SG, SNP or indeed any MEP, MP, MSP or even councillor of any party. You may not get their private address information but can get them at the respective parliaments or through their party who pass on all communications.

    What is true without doubt is that open criticism, complains or bitter adverse comments on an open forum, especially one supposedly supporting independence, harms the independence movement.

    So just why are certain Wings commenters on here day after day, from morn till night, chipping away at the FM, SG and SNP?

    I wonder what their motive could be?



    Whit could it be?

    Mibbies they want to help the cause because they ken best and the professional polititians are aa gyte? Aye! Richt!

    So I’m awa back to lurking and let you all get back on with destroying both Wings and the push for independence.

  286. paul says:

    If anyone in glasgow is interested in the economic prospects and possibilities for an independent scotland, I would get along to the mitchell library tomorrow night to see bill mitchell and warren mosler expound modern monetary theory.

    Just back from the edinburgh event and it was very heartening.

    Tickets here

  287. yesindyref2 says:

    @Mad Unionist
    At least Cubby actually evolved from sperm …

  288. Dan says:

    Cubby says at 10:30 pm

    “The Britnat Cybernats are by far the worse. They WERE on regular display on Wings eg Jezza, Danny etc etc”

    Corrected that for you Cubby. I understand both have been blocked from posting. The latter bringing the good name of Danny into disrepute and causing me no end of woe just as I stopped lurking and started posting.
    I suppose I should be marginally thankful to whomever it was as they drove me to finally work out how to put up a Gravatar pic.
    Should any tattie enthusiasts want to grow Scottish blue spuds I still have a few spare chitted ones available, though they’ll need to go in the ground soon.

    Good post @ 9.08pm BDDT. It was yourself and Tinto Chiel that pointed me towards Gravatar. Tinto also mentioned he liked spuds, maybe he’ll be lured back by the offer of free spuds!
    Was it Tartan Tory that had the fancy Audi?

  289. Ken500 says:

    Where’s Heedy?

    Come back. Just to say everything is all right.

    The over seventy fives having to pay the BBC licence fee. The Tories will lose more votes. There average member is male over seventy. Another own goal.

    BBC £3.7Billion a year for nonsense. Half pays for the land estate. Enough to help eradicate poverty of the elderly. Elderly women who were denied pension rights because they worked P/T and cared for others. What a way to treat people.

    The Tories milking it until they are voted out. Into oblivion. So others will have to sort out their mess. The usual suspects. The usual total shambles. They could no make a bigger mess.

  290. Mad Unionist says:

    Ken500 @ 10:28pm. Nicola is not needed. Scotland does not need Holyrood. The SNP MPs at Westminster and a few beaurocrats could be administrators of Scotland. We have too many politicians sucking the taxpayer. Most services in Scotland are run by local councils.

  291. yesindyref2 says:

    What is true without doubt is that open criticism, complains or bitter adverse comments on an open forum, especially one supposedly supporting independence, harms the independence movement.

    Bollocks it does. That’s your opinion, others have different opinions, and that’s your problem, you don’t accept that others can have different opinions to yours.

  292. yesindyref2 says:

    I wonder what their motive could be?

    Having different opinions in a non-fucking 1984 world?

  293. jfngw says:

    Good front page in the National, Ruth’s obsession.

    She reminds me of Norma Desmond, believes that the starring role is just round the corner, but the truth is she is yesterdays star and the twinkle has faded.

  294. Dan says:

    Mad Unionist says at 10:59 pm

    “We have too many politicians sucking the taxpayer.”

    Well, there’s an easy way to sort that situation and get the government we actually vote for…

  295. ScottieDog says:

    Glad you enjoyed it. Had to call of but I’m there tomorrow

  296. Hamish100 says:

    Mad Unionist says:
    8 May, 2019 at 10:00 pm
    You nationalists would deny anyhing even the Holocaust to suit your argument.

    Your smear is just that ,a smear. I believe you have crossed a boundary with your scummy lying comment.

    Any decent person will see through your comment for what it is.

  297. Mad Unionist says:

    yesindyref2 @ 10:53pm. Was it your sperm?

  298. Capella says:

    BDTT mentions Thepnr – we haven’t heard from him in a while, nor Tinto Chiel. I hope they are well and just having a break.

    The front cover of The National is a shocking insight into the Tory Party, aka The Ruth Davidson No Surrender Party, election leaflet. Absolutely obsessed with Nicola Sturgeon and the Independence referendum which she is going to prevent.

    Ruth really doesn’t look, or sound, like a well woman.

  299. Mad Unionist says:

    Hamish100 @ 10:00pm. Sore point for you so just confront your history.

  300. jfngw says:

    @Mad Unionist

    Well you have the germination of an idea there. Remove the cost of over 1600 politicians and unelected hangers on in one swoop, just a single cross in a box is needed.

  301. yesindyref2 says:

    Any chance you could put my question about why we can’t start off with parallel currencies – sterlingisation to keep the neoliberals happy, PLUS our own currency mostly as a local currency to start with, building up progressively from day 1? I’ve posted it enough times on The National and a couple of times here.

    My finances are even worse than before, Saturday march used up all my spare 🙂

    So I’ll not be there tomorrow, to be honest, I fall asleep at these things and snore my heid off. Nkkkaww, nkkkaww, shooo. woos woos woos.

  302. Hamish100 says:

    MAD unionist

    I have your reported your smear. It will be for the Rev to decide what to do with your bile.

  303. Ken500 says:

    Paul Sweeney

    Glasgow University 2008 to 2011 – three years?

    MA (Hons degree) Four years?

  304. Mad Unionist says:

    Dan @ 11:03pm. You do not get what you vote for. eg: 2014 and 2016. The clever people decide what the voter voted for! Are you one of the clever people Dan?

  305. jfngw says:

    Just found a transcript that I’ve been informed was originally part of a speech:

    ‘Mirror, mirror on the wall, who will make the fairest First Minster of all….what the ef do you mean not me!’

  306. CameronB Brodie says:

    OK, back on topic. The British state can not claim to respect the principle of universal human rights, as Scotland’s resident population obviously do not have access to their “Right to Development”. And now we have the full-English Brexit, which lays the ground for the constitutionally diminished and entrapped nation of Scotland to be plundered further by Tory crooks in Westminster.

    Human Rights in Natural Resource Development: Public Participation in the Sustainable Development of Mining and Energy Resources


    A new human right of public participation by those affected by natural resource development is set to define major economic developments in the 21st century. It is a fundamental part of the international norm of ‘sustainable development’, designed to harmonise economic betterment and environmental-cultural-social protection for this and succeeding generations. A recognised human right since the 1940s, public participation today is assuming many different legal and political forms — citizen involvement, indigenous peoples’ rights, local community rights, sustainable development agreements, public hearings, consultation, advisory councils, right to information, right to justice, decisional transfers, benefits sharing, and more.

    The right to be heard is a fundamental principle of public law in most of the world’s legal systems, but in practice ranges from being deeply ingrained in some cultures to non-existent in others. Understanding this new human dimension in law and development is now essential not only for lawyers but also for companies, governments, international agencies, NGOs, IGOs, and citizens.

    This book provides the theoretical and practical guidance essential to understanding and dealing with this new development. Its first section lays out the basics of what is becoming known as public participation law — its origins, history, theories, modern sources, and future directions. The second section presents the international legal authorities. The third section analyses the current experience and future trends in over a dozen nations and regions of critical resource development interest, from Africa, Australasia, Southeast Asia and China to Europe and North, Central, and South America.

    Keywords: public participation, natural resource development, sustainable development, indigenous peoples, local community rights, consultation, public hearings, advisory councils, legal authorities, public participation law

  307. Lenny Hartley says:

    Well O/T , was checking up on some WW1 history tonight and google brought up this in reference to one of Victoria the inbreds weans, the Duke of Argyll was an old Scots title, when did it die out to be replaced by a modern(ish) replacement? Probably have read and forgot the reason, remember during the Convenanters war that old crooked mouth got sorted out. rev gonna give me some of yer family history?
    Quote about louise one of Queen Vics weans ) “ Louise died without having children. She married a British commoner named John Campbell, who became the Duke of Argyll. “ Unquote.

  308. ScottieDog says:

    I don’t think you’re far away from what will happen to be honest.
    The two currencies will exist in parallel for sometime. I think warren will probably explain this part of it.
    There are concessions available

  309. mr thms says:

    This report is available for download from Scottish Centre on European Relations

    “The Future of Europe:
    Disruption, Continuity and Change

    6 May 2019

    Strategy report setting out the big future challenges for the EU – and Scotland’s contribution to that European future”

  310. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m thinking years, rather than months though. Perhaps 6 / 8 years or so, so things and people can switch over at a nice leisurely pace. Pegged to start with, can’t work out whether the parallel sterlingisation part would have to end before a switch to a floating Scots pound!

  311. ScottieDog says:

    I actually wrote a letter into the national with that very suggestion. That was before amendment D was adopted which makes the new currency more likely.
    Warren will probably do a good job of describing the change over. The two currencies will coexist for some time I’d imagine. When scotgov starts taxing in the new currency that will create a demand for it. It will be bought with existing sterling thereby building up the government’s sterling reserves.

    You in Glasgow?

  312. Mad Unionist says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 11:21pm. Glad to see dusk has arrived and you have emerged fron the coffin. The British invented human rights for lawyers to make a living. The victims are for profit and forgotten.

  313. Liz g says:

    Paul @ 10 .52
    Thanks for the information xx

  314. ScottieDog says:

    Sorry crossover there.
    The years thing, I’m not really sure what purpose that achieves.
    I have also suggested a mortgage guarantee scheme where the government can offer a one time switch to scotpound denomination where the govt intermediates between the creditors and debtors. Govt guarantees creditors the value in sterling and collects from the debtors in scot£.

    Tim Rideout has proposed a pensions guarantee where pensions will be protected from exchange rate fluctuation.

    A peg is a sledgehammer approach akin to just using sterling.

    As bill mentioned in his blog if we use or peg to sterling, when London coughs we catch a cold.

  315. yesindyref2 says:

    Fraid not, it’s a train trip or drive in.

    Anyways, like I say, I’d be in the land of nod by 7.15, and evicted minutes after 🙂

  316. ScottieDog says:

    Fair enough I could have seen if anything was going spare..

  317. yesindyref2 says:

    It soothes fears, and makes a YES more likely, and if formulated properly, approval from the neoliberalists such as the Growth Commission report got.

    The idea is, if people don’t want to switch savings, pensions and debts to the Scots pound, they don’t have to, both currencies are in use and at par to each other. And that’s why the pain in the butt peg, to make that transition as invisible and easy as possible.

    Then when people have confidence, but more particularly the products are actually there for them, they switch at their own rate until perhaps 90% have switched. At that time, a time limit is put on by the Scottish Monetary Authority / Scottish Central Bank, perhaps 12 months, and that’s it all wrappped up painlessly for the worriers.

  318. yesindyref2 says:

    My take on this is that these things always seem to be all or nothing, my way or the highway, left or right, socialist or capitalist, progressive or frankly retarded, neolib or MMT.


    What is wrong with a bit of compromise between different camps and DO BOTH?

  319. ScottieDog says:

    I’m sure there will be plenty feedback after the event anyway but
    There does seem to be a fear of the new currency nosediving, yet if you think about it, there would be very little of it around to dump (if you’re a speculator) since the only source would be the Scottish treasury. It would find its natural value over time. F it was valued bellow sterling our exports would be more attractive than rUK. Sterling pensions would also benefit from that too.

  320. yesindyref2 says:

    My take on this is that these things always seem to be all or nothing, my way or the highway, left or right, socialist or capitalist, progressive or frankly backwards, neolib or MMT.


    What is wrong with a bit of compromise between different camps and DO BOTH?

  321. ScottieDog says:

    I think you’re trying to appease a group of people that probably won’t vote yes anyway.
    Let’s get the young vote out by asking them what kind of Scotland they want.
    We can easy deal with the counter arguments of the Ronald MacDonalds.

    (Suspect we won’t agree)

  322. ScottieDog says:

    There will be compromise anyway- by both treasuries and central Banks.

  323. ScottieDog says:

    Also remember ‘as soon as is practicable’ can mean anything!

  324. yesindyref2 says:

    @ScottieDog “there would be very little of it around to dump”

    Exactly. To start with there would just be the £5 billion already in circulation, covered not in the BoE after Indy, but in the SCB 100% by Giants and Titans.

    New issue could then be made also covered 100%. Maybe £1 / £2 billion.

    Then the 100% rule relaxed. Effectively repeal of the 1858 or whenever and the 2006 or whenever Banking acts regards local currencies – these would be done on Indy anyway, but replaced by our own equivalent, but perhaps under control of the SMA / SCB.

  325. Hamish100 says:

    Mad Unionist says:
    8 May, 2019 at 11:11 pm
    Hamish100 @ 10:00pm. Sore point for you so just confront your history.
    Wasnt born but who says its my history. Is it not yours then? You slandered the SNP as a holocaust denier. Similar tactics by the right wing in England against Labour. The unionist mask falls off revealing all its ugly tactics.

  326. yesindyref2 says:

    @ScottieDog “Let’s get the young vote out
    What, an extra 2% YES from some idealists? Not enough.

    What IS enough is the 25-30% who like the idea of Indy but are worried they won’t be able to afford it and that the status quo is safer. It’s them the easy transition would appeal to, if done properly. MMT in itself is far too scary for them, and even own currency is a challenge – what about my mortgage, they say? My savings, my pension?

    There will be compromise anyway- by both treasuries and central Banks.

    Hopefully not, not in that sense anyway. I want total Independence, not some or any version of some currency union. Sterlingisation is totally in our control.

    But after that central banks do what central banks do – stabilise the use of currency and currencies for their own country’s purpose. Meaning the BoE would buy say £10 billion Scots Pounds to stabilise trade between the rUK and Scotland, and the SCB would do something similar.

    That’s not as a favour to the other country, just hard cold commercial reality.

    That’s the way I want it, no favours to or from anyone.

  327. yesindyref2 says:

    £10 billion, by the way, BoE (==) SCB (arrow things) represents maybe 20% of the annual trade each way. Seems like a reasonable figure!

  328. Mad Unionist says:

    Hamish100. If you are Scottish then it must be your history. However it is likely you are not Scottish.

  329. chicmac says:

    Mad Unionist.

    Has it not occurred to you yet that if Rev Stu did not think your comments were helpful to indy you wouldn’t still be able to post here?

    Keep up the good work.

  330. Mad Unionist says:

    chicmac @12:57, I am sure the Reverend can do what he wants. I think you are a very silly person for asking the question.

  331. Confused says:

    thank god we had westminster to spare us the burden of this lottery of lottery wins – I for one would only have spent the money on drugs and prostitutes and there are so many more worthy causes than my cock (what I am saying?!)

    – how many bankers children were spared the worse-than-a-holocaust of going to state schools?
    – how many chairs in fake-nonsense at spunkbridge colleges all across england, would never have been endowed?
    – the bbc costume dramas we would never have seen?
    – that extra 6 minutes it would have taken to cross london via underground?
    – her majesty repairing her own roof!

    it is only right and fair that men in top hats should decide for us – I mean – does scotland really need a space programme, or roads with two lanes absolutely everywhere, or more GPs than the rest of the country while we eat deep fried tunnocks tea-cakes and sniff the heroin?

    the english reputation for fair play off a straight bat is legendary – I am sure if a submerged ancient mountain of pure platinum was discovered in kent or oxfordshire, there’d be no little englanders bleeting about “englands platinum” – instead recognising this is UK PLATINUM and would sportingly engage elon musk to create the edinburgh-glasgow-stirling hyperloop

    this is all so tedious. call it soon FGS.

  332. Cubby says:

    Meg Merrilees@9.33pm

    Thanks for the info Meg.

  333. Cubby says:

    Petra@6.06 pm

    Fair enough. Cheers.

  334. twathater says:

    BDTT Point 1 talking sense and diplomacy ,

    BTW I sent 35 emails to various SNP MSP’s and MP,s yesterday including the link to WGD;s post
    Some friendly advice to the SNP leadership

    re the weekends incidents , the heading was

    Please read and reflect the serious message contained within

    I have received 2 responses from these emails

  335. Dr Jim says:

    Front page of The National showing for all to see how mentally unstable Ruth Davidson actually is

  336. Ken500 says:

    Subscribe to the National.

    Give them a boost. Monthly. So if there is any offence it can be cancelled

    Do not clutter up SNP representatives in-box with trivia. It just costs more.

    Do it to the opposition. May at 10 Downing Street, Clutter up the Westminster administration, Let the unionists pay for it. Any of the other ones. The lying unionist hypocrites. Causing all the trouble and complete and utter shambles. The lying unionists. Shameless.

    Join the SNP. Donate. Campaign. Do what you can. Most of all especially vote. SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one other to vote as well. Job done. Do not be distracted by any other factor or fraction.

    On to prosperity, equality and Independence/EU.

  337. Petra says:

    Another brilliant eye-catching National newspaper front page. No wonder the Unionists are trying to shut them down. Don’t let them. Buy or subscribe.


    The ONLY political party that’s going to help us to get our Independence is the SNP. Support them or continue to remain part of the Union. The choice is yours.


    Imagine that poor, wee Scotland has gas over and above oil and renewable energy. Far too much for us stupid Scots to cope with. Big thank you to Westminster for shouldering our burden.

    ‘Total weeks away from start up of one of the UK’s largest gas fields in Scottish waters.’

  338. Ken500 says:

    Mundell once again telling a pack of lies. Liars always get found out.

    Please, please, please folk in the Borders do not re-elect him.

    Thanking you. Do everyone a favour.

  339. Robert Louis says:

    I see The National newspaper has an excellent front page today.

    At what point, if ever, will ANY so-called journalist actually sit down and ask Davidson what any of her policies are, aside from her personal obsession to thwart democracy in Scotland??

    It seems Davidson just doesn’t have ANY policies at all, and the media in Scotland effectively give her a free ride. General election? She wants to stop democracy, EU elections? she wants to stop democracy.

    In ANY other country, journalists would be literally shredding her for her lack of ideas or policies, and for the fact that she is determined to block Scottish democracy. But not here, oh no, in Scotland, the so-called ‘journalists’ call her “mummy”.

  340. ScottieDog says:


    That’s the way I want it, no favours to or from anyone

    It’s not favours. Ensuring cross-border stability favours EVERYONE.
    One you u understand money your realise that the longer we have sterling, the poorer we get.
    Interestingly MMT references Scotsman Alfred Mitchell-Inness’ credit theory of money publication from around the 1st world war.

    But again ‘as soon as practicable’ is fine by me.

    Much of the reserves would be built up from folk buy s£.
    Any solidarity payment sh Joe be in the new currency

  341. Petra says:

    Davidson is the darling of the Scottish Unionist controlled media (99% of our media) now, RL, because she’s their only hope of keeping 5 million Scots, plus our many lucrative resources, shackled to the highly corrupt, uncompassionate, totally inept Union. Too bad for them that she looks and is acting as though she’s now losing the plot. Strange that not one of them have asked her the most basic of questions and that is why was she fighting tooth and nail for Scotland to remain in the EU, because as she said it would be catastrophic for us, but is now fighting tooth and nail for us to be dragged out. Ruth Davidson in appeasing her London masters is quite happy to sit back, with that nasty wee grin on her face, and see thousands more Scottish children, including babies, living in misery. I’m alright Jack, says Dirty money Davidson, as long as my wee Finn gets his three square meals a day and to hell with the rest of you. Ruth Davidson Scotland’s answer to Maggie Thatcher. What a legacy for her boy to live down.

  342. Petra says:

    Professor John Robertson informing the Scots for nought, as the BBC charges for suppressing information and beaming their Unionist bullsh*t right into our Scottish homes. Time to waken up folks and see the light. Support the SNP if you want to break the ties with parasitical Westminster.

    ‘8% of the population but 20% of the electricity production: How Scotland subsidises Britain’s green power achievement.’

  343. ronnie anderson says:

    Morning all . Yesterday I attended Cearc’s funeral on behalf of Wingers in Inverness . Her daughters Emma & Morwenna adorned the coffin with a large spray of flowers / Saltire her Tartan Sash with the many Wings Yes badges & her Hat LoL ( Cearc without her hats noo thats ah no no LoL ) .

    She will be sadly misses on this page by her many many Friends .

    There will be a memoriam service at her cottage on the 20th May at Inverkirkcaid ( i’ll put the address up when i receive it , i hope some of yous can attend .

    RIP Maria gone but not forgotten our lives have been enriched by knowing you . X

  344. Ken500 says:

    Ruth Davidson and her cronies will be voted out. Their time is runnin* out and they know it. Liars always get found out. A complete and utter shambles. They could not make a bigger mess. Absolutely disgraceful. They are illegally killing people.

  345. Dane says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @7:46pm
    Would like to purchase a couple of flags.Can’t remember the last time I used a cheque tho. Can payment be made by bank transfer,which is instant, or even Paypal. I hate them with a vengeance, but functional. If you don’t have a PP a/c, it’s easy to set up. When I used them the charges were 25p +3%. Don’t know how much cheque clearances are.

  346. Hamish100 says:

    Chicmac and mad unionist are online to disrupt to undermine. This will progessively get worse as we approach the EU elections.Shows hiw worried the britnats are

  347. Sinky says:

    Loki in Daily Record jumping on Cybernats bandwagon and bizarrely claiming the SNP should fine those responsible and name names…when most abusers are anonymous and not Snp members

  348. Dane says:

    I know this has been brought up before,but would contributors please stop engaging with the Brit Shit Trolls !!! All they do is clog up the forum, and discourage readers. I don’t come on as often as I would like, as I don’t have the time, or inclination to continually scroll past their shit. Judging by number of posts, they are probably SIU supporters/employees. Remember The Green Ink Brigade. All it does is give them a platform for their unionist agenda.
    Stu must despair.

  349. ronnie anderson says:

    Dan 10.54pm Tartan Tory brought his rallycar down to Arbroath Seafest that Thepnr organised for us in 2014 / Jim Thomson/Bdtt might have photo’s of it .

  350. Abulhaq says:

    Plainly a rising tidal wave is racing towards Ukania, and Scottish nationalism is riding it.
    It’s so high that its approach has yet to be acknowledged by BritState, other preoccupations perhaps. The European elections may be its first ‘inkling’.
    England football is fit though.

  351. Davidson,Rennie and whatshisname the Labour guy have one specific job from their London masters and that is to stop the cash cow of Scotlamd getting away,

    they would be removed in a second if they ever promoted or supported their own country,

    same goes for the media journalists, editors,directors and interviewers they would be shipped out if any sign of defending or advansing their own country,the only policy permitted is SNP are bad and Scotland is sh@t.

  352. Abulhaq says:

    Only if you’ve never clocked the real thing.

  353. Golfnut says:

    @ Hamish 100.

    Mad unionist definitely, Chicmac is Yes Stirling. Apologies to chicmac if I have remembered that incorrectly.

    To many on here are way too quick to label or pigeon hole commentators, debate is good, even heated debate. Closing down debate is counter productive.

  354. Petra @ 7.58am

    Sorry to disagree with you Petra, but, Ruth Davidson is not Scotland’s answer to Maggie Thatcher.

    Thatcher’s principles and beliefs were wrong, but, they wre sincerely-held and followed through on. Truthless falls into the Groucho Marx school of politicking: “These are my principles, and if you don’t like them, I have others,” this is her credo.

    Truthless will fight with every sinew of her body for the Union, then, when Scotland is again an independent country, because she will be abandoned by London – she Mundell (or his successor) and whoever is Prime Minister on Independence Day will be outcasts, as the three people who lost them Scotland.

    With nowhere else to go, she will stay in Holyrood, to lead a right of centre Scottish Conservative Party, but, as a much-deminished figure, she will not last long. I can see her becoming a sort of right wing Jim Sillars, carping from the sidelines in the new Scotland.

    But, she’s nae Iron Lady – more plasticine.

  355. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi peeps.

    “ronnie anderson says:
    9 May, 2019 at 8:40 am

    Dan 10.54pm Tartan Tory brought his rallycar down to Arbroath Seafest that Thepnr organised for us in 2014 / Jim Thomson/Bdtt might have photo’s of it .”

  356. jfngw says:

    I’ve seen the comment on twitter by Jason Michael ‘how is a vote for the Greens splitting the Yes vote’.

    Because that is how it is being framed by the unionists, only when there is a SNP majority is there a mandate. I know it’s not democratic but that’s how they are framing the argument and that’s how the MSM are reporting it.

    If the vote ended up 45% SNP 30% Greens it will be reported as a SNP failure and the independence dream lost.

  357. Archie (not Erchie) says:

    Ronnie A : Harry n Meghan were in touch last week and I convinced them to name baby Sussex ‘Archie’ not Ronnie. Sorry pal!

  358. Abulhaq says:

    It would be a good thing to lose the ‘independence dream’, we need to wake up and smell the rich aroma of independence coffee. It’s real, substantial, to be seized and savoured. Let’s go for it! No more dreaming.

  359. Gullaneno4 says:

    In sport, when you are in a winning position the best tactic is to do ‘more of the same
    Don’t panic, don’t try to forcefully ‘raise your game’.
    Just carry on doing more of the same until you win.

  360. Ken500 says:

    Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Do not deviate in any way. That way the dream will never die. The dream will become a reality. It is nearly over the line. Do not lose faith or ever give up now. It is nearly at the touching line. The blocks are off. One campaign at a time. Two or more campaigns at a time could be lost because of lack of necessary funding.

    The SNP is funded by it’s members. Ordinary people who want a better way and a better world. That is why the SNP can follow on better policies and try to protect the vulnerable. Make Scotland a much better place with better governance.

    Join, donate, campaign. Do everything people are able to. To make the world a better place. Get rid of the unionist hypocrite Westminster liars.

    Most of all get out and vote, SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one other person to vote as well. Job done,

  361. ronnie anderson says:

    Archie ( not Erchie ) thank fek ah wid never live it doon if the sprog wiz cawed Ronnie lol

  362. mike cassidy says:

    Has Fintan O’Toole been reading the postings of the Great Sage Of Kelty.

    So with the author, the editors and the peer reviewers, there are at least 25 super-educated people, most of them professional historians, who read that in 1707 “England . .. also included Wales and parts of Ireland” and did not cry out in amazement. This egregious piece of nonsense got through the intellectual equivalent of high-level airport security screening and set off no alarms.

  363. starlaw says:

    Ronnie Anderson : 10-26

    Wid Airchie no dae. Ah wiz hopin fur Wattie.

  364. Capella says:

    Thinks he’s Archie. 🙂

  365. galamcennalath says:

    mike cassidy says:

    professional historians

    They are a bit like ‘professional journalists’ … a few genuinely inciteful ones plus a load of propagandists and plagiarists.

    Historians repeat the ‘established’ nonsense of previous history-hacks. And it’s all on a foundation of “those who win gets to write the history”.

    I have always been mystified as to why the Scottish Wars of Independence were so called. Surely Wars of Liberation after temporary English occupation should be appropriate. Or perhaps to copy the USSR, the Great Patriotic Wars!

    Regaining independence by throwing out an invader is nowher else called a War of Indy, is it? It wreaks of anglicising history. But that’s what they do, don’t they?

  366. Scott says:

    Looking forward to FMQs today to see what rant the returning Tank Commander will come up with,VAT maybe no it will be independence all over again.

  367. galamcennalath says:

    Guardian … ” Corbyn seeks to make Euro elections about social justice, not Brexit, as he launches Labour campaign “

    Stupid or what? The greatest threat to ‘social justice’ IS Brexit!

    Corbyn is perhaps the Tories greatest asset at this time. No previous Labour leader, and that includes plonker Brown, would have been so ineffective with such ill judged strategies.

  368. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ronnie , you’re a prince among men anyway!

    BDTT and Tartan Tory, superb!

  369. geeo says:

    Davidson easily swatted away at FMQ’s as usual, wait for toodle oo the noo telling us how brave mumsy ruth held the FM’s feet to the fire with her hard hitting questions…

    BBC – telling you the opposite of what you just watched for quite some time now.

    Fooling nobody.

  370. Sarah says:

    @ronnie Anderson at 08.18: many thanks for the information about cearc’s sendoff yesterday – love the hat and badges!! I hope I can get to Inverkirkaig on the 20th so await exact address idc.

  371. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    I see “Bollocks to Brexit” is Vince Fables Party’s EU Election slogan.

    “Bollocks to the FibDems” is my thoughts.

  372. ronnie anderson says:

    Dorothy Devine Dorothy dont pit me oan ah pedestal ah hiv ah loat of craws waiting tae shit oan me lol .

    Sarah as soon as I get the address ( Nana might have it ) I will post it up on the page .

    The tea was at Bunchrew House hotel with Butler service savory snacks tea coffee orange juice & cakes what a spread Aubray Emma Morwenna & Mark were more than welcoming .

    Cactus Ruglonian Ian Brotherhood were quoted in the card .

  373. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    geeo @ 12:21,

    Oh Jeez, they just can’t help it at the EBC, it seems. On the R4 lunchtime news today, we had that creep Swinson assuring the faithful listening public that “The LibDems are the third largest party”. (No qualification provided, no corrective challenge uttered.) So we should vote for them and not the ChangeUK mob whose policies are exactly the same. Oh, and it is the FibDems who lead he way on Remain.


    According to the intro, if we want to say in the EU, that’s our choice. FibDem or ChukkaUK.

    [Further rudeness censored in deference to the cyberniceness campaign.]

  374. ronnie anderson says:

    Robert Peffers Peter Curran doesn’t know who coined the Cybernat word ah think he’s never read WoS lol many Wingers would know .

  375. Sarah says:

    @ ronnie anderson – thank you. I would like to see, and smell, her lemon tree that cearc was telling us about a few weeks ago.

  376. Cubby says:

    Ronnie Anderson@8.18am

    Nice post Ronnie. Not knowing Maria there is not much more I can say.

  377. ronnie anderson says:

    Manny Singh on after Alex Salmond.

  378. ronnie anderson says:

    Cubby Cearc always made it to the Wings Stall when she came down , brought up in Kent/London/Amsterdam/ traveled extensively in the world but chose Scotland as her home , her genes shines out in her Daughters features .

    Aways remembered X.

  379. ronnie anderson says:

    Jumpin jehosiphat The man that never was appreciating society from Westminster , aye their using their Brexit extension wisely the EU will be impressed .

  380. Dan says:

    Cheers BDDT & ronnie re. the Audi.
    From that frontal pic I can’t tell if it’s a shortarse or not. Car nuts will know what I’m on about…

  381. chicmac says:


    I am 100% for independence and have been since the age of rational thought.

  382. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Dan.

    Don’t know if you keep an eye on pages older than 24 hours so I’ll link to this on the front page.

    I knew I had saved a couple of pics and have just found them. I don’t know who took them but they Show Tartan Tory’s Audi at Knockhill.

  383. Dan says:

    Cheers Brian. I normally keep an eye on threads for a few days as there’s often conversations resolving themselves.

    I’ve done quite a few laps of Knockhill myself with my own project. Haven’t quite managed an under minute lap yet, but I’m oldskool and don’t use a turbo!

  384. Brian Doonthetoon says:


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