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Mummy’s back

Posted on May 11, 2019 by

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    1. 11 05 19 08:56

      Mummy’s back | speymouth

    484 to “Mummy’s back”

    1. Fergus Green says:

      I believe unwanted Tory election leaflets can be returned to this address:

      Scottish Conservative Central Office
      67 Northumberland Street
      Edinburgh EH3 6JG

    2. Dorothy Devine says:

      That smoochety wee face captured brilliantly Chris!

    3. jimnarlene says:

      I can imagine Hamish’s thought bubble… “Aye, right!”

    4. Baldeagle58 says:

      Absolutely brilliant Chris!
      You’ve really captured ‘Truthless’ Davison so well in that picture. That should be on billboards throughout the country….. or at least in her Edinburgh constituency!

    5. mumsyhugs says:

      A nice wee show of dumb insolence from Hamish there!!! :):):)

    6. Kevin Cargill says:

      In the race to be Scotland’s top politician she certainly got the wooden spoon!!

    7. Capella says:

      You’ve captured domestic godess Ruth perfectly. Reminds me of a Janey Godley sketch about the big soup pot and aw the Sandras.

    8. Morgatron says:

      Shes wearing that butchers apron well. What ever shes cooking up ,its sure as hell making us all sick. Just like the press coverage of this vacuous arsehole , the union and her oven are empty.

    9. Marcia says:

      I think there was a typing error in the title – should read 333.

    10. Ken500 says:

      Soon to be gone. Awa with Ruth. Delusional.The Tories going down, down big time.

      Madonna’s latest stunt losing her billions of customers. What a freak.

    11. Ken500 says:

      Thick as mud.

    12. Ken500 says:

      Time for canvassing. Big time

    13. Chris Cairns, that cartoon is unfair. Maw Broon hisnae let hersel go that much.

    14. Calum McKay says:

      Six months off work, three years as leader and still no policies!

      Davidson and her party have no vision for Scotland’s future, are in utter chaos, have no leadership and are firmly back to their old position of being the “nasty party!”

      What is Davidson for other than a media created poster girl for unionism!

    15. galamcennalath says:

      Excellent. Davidson’s problem is she can huff and puff all she likes, she has no say in what happens. And after this EU election the Tories in Scotland are going to begin the slide back into obscurity again.

    16. McBoxheid says:

      Do as you’re told! I demand it! A very British attitude. An attitude that less and less in Scotland are listening to. How’s that working for you Ruth? Did you not engage in the National Conversation, Ruth? Or did you only read the Tory Bulletins and Dispatches from Mayhem?

    17. Truth says:

      Captured the raging under-bite perfectly.

    18. auld highlander says:

      Her armband is missing.

    19. Giving Goose says:

      I think some blood stains on the pinny would not be amiss.

    20. Hamish100 says:

      Where’s the sash that mammy wore?

      My dislike for Toryism knows no bounds.

      As for the butchers apron wish there was a simple law of Scotland stating the Saltire will fly from all buildings with any others adjoining set lower.

      Edinnburgh castle comes to mind. The. Military occupation continues.

    21. Muscleguy says:

      Go jump out the window of your room Hamish and flick the Mooth the bird as you hare off into the free distance.

    22. Bob Mack says:

      Puts Joan Crawford in the shade.(Mommie Dearest)

    23. Abulhaq says:

      Maw Yoon, giean it laldie???
      Ukania, untamed.

    24. Republicofscotland says:

      Ha ha, good one Chris.

      Meanwhile James Doran SNP MSP tells of the multiple death threats he’s had from unionists. I wonder if STV or the BBC will cover that.

    25. Effijy says:

      The Daily Hail stepping up its Anti-Scotland/ SNP attack today.
      Seems that SNP are Rocked as 2 people outside the party claim
      The SNP MPs Law and Cherry have had complaints of bullying against them.

      I tried to wade thru their multiple pages of crap, unlike most will, we both vigorously
      Refute any claim and who would fight any such claim in court if necessary.

      So made up rumour from made up source may not be substantiated but let’s keep
      Throwing mud for the pensioner readers and our Jack Booted readers.

    26. Republicofscotland says:

      Labour/Tory Customs deal will severely damage Scotland’s economy. We must leave this unequal union as soon as possible.

    27. starlaw says:

      Perfect Chris.

      Ye wull dae us yoor telt . . . or else.

    28. Dr Jim says:

      Hamish is being *allowed* to read, her lot usually prefer burning books

    29. Spice Girls reforming?
      Supermom replacing Ginger Spice as Nippy Sweetie Spice?
      You have been telt, Scotland We Tories won the election. We got 13 MPs,you only got 35.
      38% of us voted Leave (but not me or Mundo The Michty) and you Remain lot only got 62%, so back in your boxes, or we’ll launch a gunboat from Faslane and steam up the Clyde and place Glasgow under martial law, and straddle Mons Meg at the Castle, and read the Riot Act, while a battalion of England’s Finest march to Holyrood and arrest the Ring leaders.
      You are a subjugated nation; you have been warned.
      Any more talk of Independence by you lot will not be tolerated.
      I’ll update you over the next few days when I appear on HIGNFY, QT, and the Great British Fuck Off.

      Put me off my square slice this morning, Cairns; I hope you’re happy you callous bassa. Well done.
      I fully expect MRS C to be interviewed by Scoop Hutcheon of the Herald Britland, cataloguing your bullying and harassment at work now.
      They’ll get you for this vile trolling. You’ve gone too far, blaspheming Mother Ruthesa.

    30. Republicofscotland says:

      Best wishes to those taking part in the AUOB march in Wales today. The Welsh Dragon is stirring.

    31. Dr Jim says:

      @Jack collatin 11:23am

      Nailed it

    32. Foonurt says:

      Colonial Davidson.

    33. manandboy says:

      Well done, Chris! Another belter.

      Ruthie – Scotland’s very own Arlene Foster.

      Underneath, Arlene has a beating, drumming, marching heart. While Ruth Davidson simply has a heart of stone, hewn from the rock of the merciless Tory Imperial Establishment.

    34. Abulhaq says:

      When you hold all the cards, as the Independence movement certainly does, there is no longer any need for circumspection, discretion and politeness.
      Turn up THE VOLUME!

    35. jfngw says:

      Sorry can’t stop seeing an image of Peggy Mount now, you need to be of a certain vintage for this I suspect.

    36. Robert Peffers says:

      Sumbdy report yon afu cruel wummin tae the RSPCC Children Lions 1st.

      That’s a right belter, Chris.

    37. Cubby says:

      Excellent toon.

      Truthless Davidson just another lying Britnat trying to put the lid back on Scotland.

      You’ve nae chance hen.

    38. Achnababan says:

      Veering a little off topic but BBC have story about Glencoe Massacre that’s quite detailed but forgets to mention, even once, that the massacre was carried out on the order of the British Governmen by British troops. Only says the massacre was carried out by ‘troops’. Bias by omission again!

    39. jfngw says:

      BBC pull Have I Got News For You at last minute when top brass at BBC realise that Nigel Farage has not been booked hence breaking the commitment that he will appear on every BBC programme with any political input this week (and every week some may think).

      Remember the more of us that turn out on the 23rd May the less likely this arsehole will have a representative in Scotland. And it is important to turn out as the low turnout allowed David Coburn to be elected last time, don’t be a Coburn type enabler (I know he is not standing but the alternative will be the same).

    40. Breeks says:

      Definition of Democracy: A form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

      Ruth Davidson.. self proclaimed “Democrat”, and person elected to office to serve those who elected her.

      Definition of a Referendum: A referendum is a direct vote in which an entire electorate is invited to vote on a particular proposal.

      Now join the dots, and ask yourself what right, calling or authority Davidson thinks she has to arbitrarily ration Scotland’s access to democracy? What a brazen fking liberty. She has such a jaded and crass appreciation for what democracy is, that she should be impeached on the grounds of her stunning lack of self awareness.

      Join more dots together… If Davidson and the BritNats are so certain the Constitutional issue was permanently settled in 2014, then why are they too spineless and cowardly to face up to the electorate a second time?

      The simple truth is the BritNats operate to different standards from the rest of us. Democracy is only democracy if they get their way. All that matters to them is winning. A corrupt media is fine, so long as it favours them. Dark money and influence is fine, so long as it favours them and buys the influence that suits them. Bigotry and sectarianism is fine, because it favours them and enhances their footprint. Electoral Fraud is fine, because the fines are dwarfed and swept away by the benefits of dubious victory. The whole rotten system is fine, because it’s their rotten system, bought and paid for by their rotten Establishment, fuelled by the deluded BritNat exceptionalism which convinced itself in the 18th Century that the rest of the world should pay for its upkeep and privileges.

      Ruth Davidson’s the next First Minister don’t cha know? Must be true. I heard it on the BBC. Don’t know about First Minister, but she’s a shoe-in to be Scotland’s First Pierre Laval.

    41. robertknight says:

      Brutally appropriate ‘toon.

      (Still recon a Trunchbull likeness exists)

    42. jfngw says:

      Wow! Just had a look at Murdo Fraser tweet and replies, need a break now, there is only so much madness I can take. Someone called Historywoman sees to be particularly, how can I put it, challenged.

    43. galamcennalath says:

      Achnababan says:

      BBC have story about Glencoe Massacre that’s quite detailed but forgets to mention, even once, that the massacre was carried out on the order of the British Governmen by British troops

      Perhaps because it wasn’t? It happened 15 years before the Union. The Massacre was one part of the struggle to put William II on the Scottish throne, which was opposed by Jacobites. Battle of Killiecrankie etc..

      Also, the Massacre was a tit for tat killings as ‘payback’ for earlier raids into Perthshire. Yet more evidence that violence begets only further violence.

      However, it is even less likely that the BBC are going to use the phrases “Scottish Government” and “Scottish troops”.

    44. Clootie says:

      …but still people vote for her!

    45. galamcennalath says:

      jfngw says:

      Historywoman seems to be particularly, how can I put it, challenged.

      Clearly a bot. Couldn’t possible be a real human. Just an early example of a poorly coded BritBot.

    46. Confused says:

      a quickie, to raise the eyebrow …

      – this is why satire is so difficult. you make an outrageous joke, then someone says it all sincere

    47. Ruth and Arlene are not WM MPs.
      Yet they both get invites to No 10, and are the most bizarre ‘allies’ imaginable.
      Ruth is damned to eternal hell fire in Arlene’s world, and Ruth should be shouting from the roof tops about the DUP’s mad cult religion, anti gay, anti Woman’s Right To Choose, God created the world 4000 years ago at half past two on a Wednesday nonsense.
      Ruth has no morale compass; she’ll sup with any fascist racist bigot, just for more dosh and power, with little work involved.
      Davidson is not ‘the boss’ of the Blue Tory Dirty Baker’s Dozen in Scotland. They are WM MP’s, ‘Big T’s’ their boss, but Toodle Oo The Noo and the media lap dogs perpetuate the myth that Davidson is a de facto member of May’s Cabinet, a lady in waiting to land the Big WM Prize.
      Next step will be Baroness Honorary Colonel Davidson of Morningside, and a seat in the Cabinet as Viceroy of Scotland.
      It looks like we are heading for Corbyn and his Commies betraying their International Socialist principles (don’t laugh at the back there) and voting for a Blue Tory isolationist Fortress England. Did the red neck Northern Labour Leavers really vote for a Tory Brexit?
      No one’s asked.
      If you got inside Davidson’s head and spoke, your words would echo hollowly in the vacuum.
      She really is as shallow as a fruit fly’s belly button.

    48. Terence callachan says:

      Nicola Sturgeon went to London to support the second brexit referendum.
      We know SNP have said that there will be another Scottish independence referendum if Scotland is taken out of the EU.

      I am of the opinion that if brexit does not go ahead and that is distinctly possible , we can kiss goodbye to another Scottish independence referendum anytime soon.

      I believe the SNP will not support another Scottish independence referendum if brexit is cancelled and will say that their mandate to call one was only if brexit took Scotland out of the EU.

      I’m a member of SNP and support Nicola sturgeon as leader but I used to think we were heading for another Scottish independence referendum no matter what but that is clearly not the case and is explained by Nicola sturgeon going to London to support the call for a second brexit vote or as they call it a people’s vote.

      It struck me as strange at the time that Nicola sturgeon did that knowing that Scotland did not require another brexit vote and knowing that another brexit vote in Scotland would not do anything other than reject brexit again but then it became clear to me that Nicola was attending that London gathering of remainers trying to prevent brexit not for Scotland but for the whole of the UK.

      She firmly believes in political protocol and is leading us down the road of trying to persuade Westminster to give more powers to the Scottish parliament in the hope that good governance by holyrood will persuade more and more people to vote SNP, the chances of enough people doing so to make another Scottish independence referendum inevitable in my lifetime are slim.

      Who else is there to get behind for Scottish independence ?

      Scottish independence in my opinion will only happen in my lifetime if brexit happens.

      Re..a recent discussion with and about Craig Murray I say..

      Craig Murray in my opinion is very clever, honourable and a real asset to Scotland .
      I do not agree with the people who have been rather rude and aggressive towards him in my opinion they do not appear to have much knowledge of his achievements or his political leanings but that kind of behaviour is not uncommon here.

    49. Dr Jim says:

      @Historywoman is professor Jill Stephenson professor emeritus of Edinburgh University who taught among other things modern German history and is part of the discredited Scotland in Union propaganda Tory machine along with Murdo Fraser Pamela Nash and Labour’s Ken Mackintosh among others

      A professor emeritus it should be noted is an honorary title bestowed upon retirees, it in no way bestows intellect, intelligence or good manners, all of in which the retired professor does not excel

      I have heard her described as a complete and utter Frootloop, a description with which I cannot disagree

    50. Famous15 says:

      A frootloop who regularly fouls the pages of our disgraced Scottish press.

    51. CameronB Brodie says:

      See, with affirmitive action, it is possible for even intelectually challenged authoritarians to fund a purpose in modern life. Keeping the image of empire going, maintaining inherited privilege and defending London’s despotism over Scotland. She is simply performing as a modern day British nationalist, i.e. a bit of a fascist.

      Fear and Anxiety Drive Conservatives’ Political Attitudes
      Can brain differences explain conservatives’ fear-driven political stances?

    52. Dr Jim says:

      Scotland has become rather popular among England’s academic and archaeolgical boffins these days, and many of them can be found on most days traipsing around Scotland digging holes and unearthing documents from antiquity with puzzled expressions of bewilderment on their faces as to why so much of Scotland’s history has been erased

      Perhaps asking some actual Scottish people instead of making pointless documentaries pretending Scotland’s past has been *lost* in the mists of time and nobody knows why

      Ith a mythtery ith a mythtery?

      No it’s not Scotland’s scholars and clergy were educated in Maths Latin Greek and many other languages and cultures a very long time before some other countries, and we still are

      It’s no mythtery where Scotland’s history’s gone, well much of it anyway

    53. robertknight says:


      Hysterical in every sense.

    54. Robert Peffers says:


      Got this on the Record’s on-line version:-

      Quite hilarious in a kind of threatening way.

      It begins with reports of the form of abuse political figures get on-line and it holds up as example Joanne Cherry’s, (taken seriously by police), death threat and goes on about how particularly females are abused on-line.

      Here, though, is the hilariously stupid thing about it. It ends up on the theme of curbing those, “Vile Cybernats”.

      Can you believe these idiots from the Record?

      Are they seriously attempting to have their readers believe it is Scottish independence supporters sending on-line death threats and rape threats to the SNP’s Joanne Cherry?

      You couldn’t write that if you tried – but the Record can.

    55. galamcennalath says:

      CameronB Brodie says:

      Can brain differences explain conservatives’ fear-driven political stances?

      Interesting paper.

      (Some of us do look at your links if they appear to be inciteful. 🙂 )

      I have always felt that the human race divides in two. Those who fear change, lack empathy, often self centred. And those who are outward looking, embrace the opportunities of change, and care about their fellow humans and the wider world.

      This appears to manifest itself in politics along a ubiquitous fault line!

      Just suppose Tories have an oversized amygdala! A quick brain scan would reveal their political persuasion!

      There is a counter argument. Or, perhaps just an effect with interferes with the over simplistic model. That is, most conservative traits are shown by older people. I don’t subscribe the the idea that people become conservative with age. I put the xenophobic, anti-change, ethnically elitist, attitudes of many older people to be a product of their earlier life experiences. Unlike myself, and other older folks on here, they swallowed the BritNat propaganda of their youth totally!

      Why did they succumb? And continue to be influenced by it? Consider, younger people today just don’t buy it, for the most part.

    56. Cactus says:

      Ahhh, the sun is shining within the Southside Festival


      The People are in the sun…

      Merlot bottle nummer 2 aye like aye heh!

      The Wuden Spoon for mooth

    57. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s a long time since I was use cognitive science and evolutionary psychology, but you’re pretty much spot on about society being divided into liberals and conservatives.

      Are Conservatives Less Likely to be Prosocial Than Liberals?
      From Games to Ideology, Political Preferences and Voting


      Do political preferences reflect individual differences in interpersonal orientations? Are conservatives less other-regarding than liberals? On the basis of past theorising, we hypothesised that, relative to individuals with prosocial orientations, those with individualistic and competitive orientations should be more likely to endorse conservative political preferences and vote for conservative parties. This hypothesis was supported in three independent studies conducted in Italy (Studies 1 and 2) and the Netherlands (Study 3).

      Consistent with hypotheses, a crosssectional study revealed that individualists and competitors endorsed stronger conservative political preferences than did prosocials; moreover, this effect was independent of the association between need for structure and conservative political preferences (Study 1). The predicted association of social value orientation and voting was observed in both a four-week (Study 2) and an eight-month (Study 3) longitudinal study.

      Taken together, the findings provide novel support for the claim that interpersonal orientations, as measured with experimental games rooted in game theory, are important to understanding differences in ideology at the societal level. Copyright © 2011 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

      Key words: social interaction; personality types; attitudes

    58. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 11 May, 2019 at 1:42 pm:

      ” … Clearly a bot. Couldn’t possible be a real human. Just an early example of a poorly coded BritBot.”

      ‘Fraid not, galamcennalath, that, “bot”, is what passes as a highly regarded academic at one of Scotland’s well known universities. Strikes me, though, that there is at least one afu shooglie screw in the cranium of said academic.

    59. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 14:10,

      While I’m somewhat sceptical of Angus Robertson’s “sunshine and flowers only” strategy, since you just have to expose and call out BritNat lies and manoevrings to win, @Historywoman does rather prove his point from the other side.

      I seriously doubt her OTT public bile has won anyone over to the cause of her sanctified Union. Very much the contrary, in fact.

      We need more like her! =laugh=

    60. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 15:08,

      (I think it was a joke, RP. I’m sure he knows.)

    61. Breeks says:

      I quite often use the NewsNow website for a snapshot of breaking news. I like the way stories can be filtered by country, Brexit etc…

      When you look at Scotland, you detect a degree of anger at the hypocrisy of the BBC pulling HIGNFY because Heidi Allen was on it, but not pulling Question Time because Farage was on it.

      Thing is, access the story through “England” and you see tumbleweed. There is mention of HIGNFY being pulled, but of BBC’s double standards for broadcasting Farage? Not a word.

      I hope we have a plan for what happens when Farage’s Brexit Party wins the lion’s share of the EU seats. Guy Verhofstad will certainly have his concerns vindicated and status enhanced, and perhaps Donald Tusk’s tireless patience and forbearance will lose ground. If it was possible for the UK to make itself even more toxic in the eyes of Europe, I think that man Farage has surpassed all expectations.

      IF May’s Withdrawal Agreement fails to be approved, we are sailing into very dark uncharted waters, with a rash of freshly elected populist Brexiteers threatening to derail the tranquility of the EU Parliament. Populism will have a firmer foothold in the EU Parliament, and I think European opinion will quickly harden to contain it. The UK was given a way out of a Nuclear-Winter Brexit, but snubbed it, and instead sent in Nigel Farage with instructions to burn the house down.

      Where are we in all of this? To whom does Scotland’s plight actually matter? Bloody good question, but I hope we have a Plan B alternative to negotiating a pleasant Section 30 Agreement with a Westminster Parliament and BBC Propaganda Service, both radicalised and unhinged by desperate Europhobia and flag waving populism. (We do have a Plan B, don’t we???)

      Europe, in due course, will have all the evidence it needs to prove Brexit populism has NOT been extinguished by a period of calm reflection and introspection. Yes, the Brits ARE just mad enough to go though with this. The UK won’t get a Withdrawal Agreement and later Free Trade Agreement, but a summary Hard Brexit and something close Quarantine Arrangements for the foreseeable future. Depending on Ireland, there are probably a few sanctions inbound too.

      You know by now this is the point when I begin to rabbit on about Constitutional Sovereignty, but I’ve said it all before. We have an escape strategy. More fool us if we don’t use it.

      Rev Stu hit the nail on the head a few days ago. Those of us who want Scottish Indy sooner rather than later/never might yet have Farage to thank for getting it… provided we are ready to jump decisively when the time comes…. We are ready to jump decisively aren’t we? Plan B IS Operation Triple-jump-mandate isn’t it?

      We hop out of Brexit, skip the Referendum, and Jump the fence to Freedom.

    62. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think you were actually describing the personality type that has been labeled the “old fashioned personality”.

      The Old-Fashioned Personality


      It is noted that the authoritarian personality theory of Adorno et al. is now seldom referred to in race relations research and that the scale used to operationalize the theory (the Fscale) is a very poor measure of what it purports to measure (right-wing authoritarianism). The Fscale does have many correlates, however, and the work of Pflaum is referred to support the contention that the F scale in fact taps an old-fashioned orientation. A large correlational study by Kline and Cooper is reinterpreted in this light and it is shown that when pejorative assumptions are discarded, the old-fashioned person would appear to have many potentially admirable characteristics. The new understanding of what the F scale measures is also shown to be helpful in making sense of the findings from many other studies.

    63. CameronB Brodie says:

      I could go on and on but that would just annoy some. 😉

      Open to diversity: Openness to experience predicts beliefs in multiculturalism and colorblindness through perspective taking.


      The present research examines the influence of personality on ideologies about diversity in society. In two studies (N = 668), we test whether Openness to Experience predicts beliefs in multiculturalism and colorblindness, and whether these relationships are mediated by perspective-taking tendencies. In Study 1, Openness positively predicted multiculturalism but negatively predicted colorblindness through ethnic perspective taking – findings that were independent of empathy, age, gender, and race/ethnicity. In Study 2, we attempted to replicate and extend our findings by using different measures of multiculturalism and colorblindness and a more general, interpersonal operationalization of perspective taking.

      Results indicate Openness positively predicted both multiculturalism and colorblindness through interpersonal perspective taking (also independent of age, gender, and race/ethnicity), suggesting the pattern of findings varied as a function of perspective-taking type. Implications for the complexity of the Openness dimension and future research directions are discussed. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2019 APA, all rights reserved)

    64. sassenach says:

      Indy march in Cardiff, not a single mention can I find on BBC news site???

      Best wishes Welsh marchers, may it be the first of many.


    65. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says:11 May, 2019 at 3:14 pm:

      (I think it was a joke, RP. I’m sure he knows.)

      Yes, Robert, I also assumed it was a joke. However, I am always aware there are far more readers of Wings than there are commenters and, going by the statistics, I concluded there would at least be some who nether knew it to be a joke nor knew who, “Historywoman”, actually was.

      Mind you I had no mind to enlighten them further by giving, “Historywoman”, the oxygen of publicity.

    66. sassenach says:

      Just changed they get a mention “HUNDREDS march in Cardiff” – typical playing the numbers down!!

      But a new ‘front’ is opening!!

    67. CameronB Brodie says:

      @History Woman
      If you’re not prepared to seek professional help, at least help yourself.

      Testing Trait-State Isomorphism in a New Domain:
      An Exploratory Manipulation of Openness to Experience

    68. twathater says:

      Chris a very apt representation of a belligerent self absorbed vacuous BULLY , we have all experienced her kind ,

      The only ones who are convinced ??????? (are they ) and are trying to con the Scottish public are the presstitutes who are SHAMING their profession , the dribbling sycophantic mutterings of toodle oo the noo after FMQ’S was boak inducing , the whole of the SP were on the steps in the garden hall for a photo op but all toodleoo could say was OH LOOK THERE IS RUTH or was it mummy

    69. jfngw says:

      The BritNats are now in terror, they have no argument, except to contradict the arguments they used in 2014. Their strategy now is to paint the Yes movement as grotesque, nasty people, unfortunately they are being helped by many high ranking people in the SNP. They are either being played or are content with the current situation.

      We are now at the stage where Tory & LibDem’s are using a mailshot that went wrong as proof of how the SNP can’t run a country they are already running. Poor old Murdo, he doesn’t even know that the SNP office staff don’t run the Scottish Government civil service, no wonder he can’t get anyone to vote for him as a directly elected MSP.

    70. CameronB Brodie says:

      Want to understand History Woman and those who perceive political ideology as sacred religion (see (white) British nationalism and the full-English Brexit)?



      The goals of the study were to examine whether fundamentalism and authoritarianism could be distinguished by the Big Five factors of personality in American, Romanian and German samples, and to determine whether fundamentalism and authoritarianism could be distinguished by factor analysis in any of the three cultures.

      The results in all three cultures indicate that fundamentalism and authoritarianism have virtually identical personality correlates. In all three cultures, the two constructs were indistinguishable via exploratory factor analysis and could only be distinguished via confirmatory factor analysis, although direction-of-wording effects dwarfed the differences between fundamentalism and authoritarianism.

      The findings suggest that researchers should view fundamentalism as religious authoritarianism, and should therefore be cautious when making inferences about religiosity from research on fundamentalism.

    71. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@2.10pm

      She is also referred to as ” Batshit Jill”.

    72. Welsh Sion says:

      Republic of Scotland
      et al.

      anks to everyone for their best wishes and support.

      AUOB Cymru March today on the BBC – More authentic news later …

    73. Cubby says:

      Alistair Darling has come out of his crypt and announced he is not convinced by the SNP currency plans for an independent Scotland. Someone should ask him what he would be convinced by. What would he recommend. Or is Scotland the only country that can’t have its own currency.

      Also perhaps ask him about all the broken promises of Better Together. What a brass neck that guy has. A brassneck seems to come as standard for Britnats.

    74. Welsh Sion says:

      Good to see so many saltires, too.

      Thank you, Scotland / Diolch yn fawr, yr Alban.

    75. Capella says:

      Another wee rash of smeary allegations against SNP MPs. Chris Law and Joanne Cherry both complained against.

      Joanna Cherry accused of bullying staff, according to the Times:

      Chris Law accused of not stopping bullying of staff says BBC:

      Stu posts a link to a 2011 article in The Scotsman where Iain Gray attacks “vile poison” of SNP politics .

      Evergreen themes.

    76. CameronB Brodie says:

      Funnily enough, Critical Theory was invented as a weapon against cultural authoritarianism, which is another CORE issue. It’s a funny old world. 🙂

      RUNNING HEAD: Factor analysis of RWA corrected for acquiescence

      A bias-corrected exploratory and confirmatory factor analysis of right-wing authoritarianism: Support for a three-factor structure


      The factor structure of Right-Wing Authoritarianism (RWA) remains a contentious issue. Although designed to measure three underlying attitude clusters, aggression, submission and conventionalism, many items are deliberately double- or triplebarrelled, to capture the covariation of the three clusters in a unidimensional scale.

      Additionally, although the scale is balanced, there is an item-direction bias in the clusters; aggression items are pro-trait, and conventionalism items are con-trait. Subscale structure is therefore potentially confounded with acquiescence bias.

      Although RWA as a unitary construct has been an effective tool for exploring prejudice, it would be useful in many cases to measure its underlying components directly. Proposed solutions to this problem include creating short-form scales as subsets of the original scale, or modifying items to simplify and un-confound the structure.

      We present convergent evidence of an underlying factor structure by considering one-, two- and three-factor solutions to the uncorrected scale and then using an indirect method to correct for acquiescence bias. Before and after correction, factor analysis supported a three-factor solution. Confirmatory factor analyses also support a three-factor solution compared to a one-factor solution.

      Key Words: right-wing authoritarianism, factor analysis, social dominance,

    77. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 11 May, 2019 at 3:15 pm:

      … Where are we in all of this? To whom does Scotland’s plight actually matter? Bloody good question, but I hope we have a Plan B alternative to negotiating a pleasant Section 30 Agreement with a Westminster Parliament and BBC Propaganda Service, both radicalised and unhinged by desperate Europhobia and flag waving populism. (We do have a Plan B, don’t we???)”

      I would speculate, Breeks, that you, more than most, know full well the FM has already placed in the public domain that there will be a referendum with or without Westminster’s, “Permission”.

      That being so it is sad you still persist in attempting to undermine the FM, the SG and the SNP with these long negative diatribes. We need every vote we can muster yet you persist in this negativity. Why?

    78. Dr Jim says:

      Liberal Democrats, our moral guardians who would point out the mistakes of others over posting some mailshots as evidence of failings of governmental competence have just reinstated David Martin Scott Steele, Baron of Aikwood KT, KBE, PC

      This is a man who covered up the peodiphilic activities of others and admitted to it yet the Liberal Democrats feel that because he’s one of them and a *noble* gentleman it’s all good

      Lord save us all from the guardianship of Willie Rennie Jo Swinson, Vince Cable and the morals of their chums

      Of course we Cybernats are vile if we mention the foul proclivities of Unionists as they (The Unionists) demand immunity from the insulting truths we hurl at them, because apparently it demeans us?

      What a Scotland we live in now where the right the just and the truthsayers are berated and attacked as the wrong doers

      It’s a Trumpstopian new world

    79. Dan says:

      Cactus says at 3:00 pm

      “Ahhh, the sun is shining within the Southside Festival


      The People are in the sun…

      Merlot bottle nummer 2 aye like aye heh!”

      Lucky you! Sun’s oot here too, but I’ve had the sound of a stihl saw and cement mixer to contend with all day whilst the builders work on the neighbour’s hoose!
      Now I like an eclectic range of music but the din in my garden is worse than even the hardest of hard house German industrial techno.
      I cracked open the Merlot earlier to help calm things down.
      Talking of calming things down. If this Historywoman is at the extreme end of the unionist spectrum, might it be beneficial for all that she is be-friended by someone towards the other end of the scale to temper and rein in her feelings in a Yin-Yang / Good-Evil / Dark-Light sort of things?
      I could be just the guy for the job! Has someone got a pic?

    80. OFF TOPIC

      Every time I log onto Wings, I make a point of having a swatch at the Rev’s twitter feed, on which there is always a fair amount of comment on trans-gender issues.

      Being a “Baby Boomer,” this sort of stuff does little or nothing for me, can we maybe not agree – if a person has a penis and testicles, “She” is a “He”, regardless of how “She” self-identifies.

      If you want to bat for the other side – get rid: simples.

      And, I wonder, will trans-gender “women athletes”, who have had the operation, be required to join Caster Seymenya & Co, by having to take testosterone-reducing medication?

    81. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says: 11 May, 2019 at 3:59 pm:

      ” … What a brass neck that guy has. A brassneck seems to come as standard for Britnats.”

      I heard it, on good authority, Labour can no longer afford proper Brass Necks any more and they only issue brass plated cast iron necks to newer Labourites these days.

      They work just the same, are just as hard, but are prone to crack up under stress.

    82. yesindyref2 says:

      @Welsh Sion
      From that: “Speaking ahead of the Cardiff event, Plaid Cymru leader Adam Price said that people were “waking up” to the idea that independence was normal.

      That’s the thing, Wales has a long way to go, but could do it faster than dear old Scotland. Go for it!

    83. Dr Jim says:

      Many thousands of people from England Tweet Scotland’s First Minister begging her to be Prime Minister of *the country*
      I’m sure most of these people consider their asking as flattery towards the FM but it does expose the inbuilt arrogance from down south that they should have what they want and ignore Scotland as somehow a lesser entity to them not requiring the best representaion it can get

      If I could point out to these kind people that to real Scottish people the country we live in is rather more important than the country we don’t and Scotland’s First Minister has not and has never had the slightest notion of being a political figure in England, because folks English politics is a foul and corrupt place and our FM is diametrically opposed to the westminster system and everything contained theirein, and that is why she remains in Scotland to make sure we don’t fall into the same category

      But thanks all the same

    84. Patrick Roden says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland:

      you said “While I’m somewhat sceptical of Angus Robertson’s “sunshine and flowers only” strategy, since you just have to expose and call out BritNat lies and manoevrings to win, @Historywoman does rather prove his point from the other side.

      I seriously doubt her OTT public bile has won anyone over to the cause of her sanctified Union. Very much the contrary, in fact.”

      This is a very good point and something we all need to have a good think about.

      I do think however, that the SNP need to be challenging the MSM far more, and if they did, perhaps the Rev wouldn’t have to fill the vacuum that people like Angus has left.

    85. Robert Peffers says:

      @Welsh Sion says: 11 May, 2019 at 3:59 pm:

      ” … Adam Price’s Speech at the March:”

      Good speech, Welsh Sion and good to see the Welsh Dragon coming out breathing some fire. I’m sure the flames will improve with use. More than a few Westminster bottoms need a good scorching.

    86. HYUFD says:

      Welsh Sion The same Wales that voted to Leave the EU just like England and the same Wales where Plaid has never won a Welsh election unlike the SNP? Remain voting London is more likely to be independent than Wales though neither are likely

    87. Clootie says:

      HYFUD determined to re-write history by ignoring the colonisation of Wales.

    88. Hamish100 says:

      fud -that was then , this is now and the future is still to be.

      Grow up.

    89. Cactus says:


    90. jfngw says:


      But was it not Alistair Darling (and the crypt-kickers) that told us the we could not use the pound. Alistair and the Currency Monster Mash, his simple belief is Scotland should not exist as there is no viable currency option. He is the definition of the forelock tugger, he will say anything to remain in the HoL’s, a true man of the people, not the common people obviously.

    91. jfngw says:

      Wales was just made England’s Lebensraum, I remember the Welsh being unhappy about this in the 60’s/70’s as they tried to highlight this colonisation.

    92. boris says:

      Unionist politicians of the Labour Tory and Lib/Dem party’s cast scorn on anyone raising the spectre of state control of the BBC in Scotland but finally the evidence is in the public domain.

      It is a tale of secret agents and surveillance that could have come straight out the BBC Scotland’s classic spy drama “Whisky Galore”.

      But the difference is that genuine spies are involved and they are operating behind the scenes at BBC Scotland.

    93. euan0709 says:

      I believe Wales is almost colonised. A bit like Galloway and Scotland North of Glasgow.
      It appears that the population of Wales is now 30 per cent English incomers. Perhaps it was those incomers that tipped the balance towards No ?

    94. Giving Goose says:


      Davidson already is Pierre Laval.
      She is in good company, along with the other Pierre Lavals such as Willie Rennie, Jim Murphy and basically all politicians from the Red, Blue and Orange Tory Party.

    95. Robert Peffers says:

      I was browsing around YouTube getting things like fringe meetings at the recent SNP National Spring Conference and I came across a fringe meeting with Alyn Smith. His speech, as usual was top notch but what really struck me was that this, “Fringe”, meeting was crowded and far better attended than the main meetings of the recent Tory Party conference.

      Now just what does that tell you

    96. Simon Curran says:

      The same Alistair Darlin IIRC rather late in the day finally admitted that Scotland could use sterling after all.
      Cubby’ s question from earlier is pertinent, what currency could Scotland successfully use? Or is Scotland such an economic basket case that it will always need propping up by England? And if England will always need to prop Scotland up then how come no English based party is wanting independence from the spongers up north? And if Scotland will always be some poor, what does that say about 300 odd years of this great and glorious union?

    97. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I put the following question on Twitter last night:

      ‘Regardless of what age you are, do you feel you will see Scotland becoming independent within your lifetime?’

      Right now there have been 2,953 votes cast.

      Yes 90%
      No 10%

      That seems, on the face of it, very encouraging, but some of those who voted ‘No’ have taken the time to explain why. I’ve omitted the names of the tweeters in case they would not like them appearing here, but some will be familiar to Wingers and I’m as sure as I can be that some have commented here in the past.

      The reason I’m dong this is because I believe these voices and opinions should be heard, especially here. The argument that expressing any form of negativity somehow empowers the ‘enemy’ is bogus. Whether we like it or not, the great power of social media comes from the ‘social’ element of it, and so the distinctions between discipline, privacy, secrecy and outright paranoia are impossible to draw with any certainty. Commenters who are barred from here – or are made to feel unwelcome – can pop up elsewhere within minutes.

      Most of us accept that there are provocateurs, and some folk are just, by nature, gloomy glass-half-empty whinging mood-hoovers. But they are still entitled to have an opinion and – more importantly, perhaps – they also have a vote.

      Some of these folk would get short shrift if they posted such comments here. Why should they? We all get down from time to time, we all get jittery and doubtful. That’s allowed, isn’t it? And isn’t one of WOS’s greatest assets the community spirit which has grown over the past seven years? Shouldn’t we be inviting fellow travellers to share their concerns and help them?

      Perhaps I’m coming across as hopelessly naive, but that’s my take on it all – I don’t detect any malice or mischief in the following quotes. I hear genuine worry, sometimes very moving, heartfelt concern that the prize is falling away from us.

      No. My daughter’ll see it but can’t see our current leadership disentangling themselves from British political party shenanigans in the near future. Any1 who thinks independence’ll be gained by trying 2play the game in London hasn’t been paying attention2 British colonial history

      We have joined in the game of monopoly and they have all the top places and all the money already and we are playing by their rules that they change at will. Tough gig.

      We’ll gain independence when the people charged with delivering it cease trying to save the country we’re wanting to be independent of .

      It really really pains me to say it but NO, i no longer see Indy in my lifetime, recent events have led me to feel this but it is what it is ?

      No I don’t. And I’ll tell you why. Despite it all, we have MP’s who aren’t focused on it. Some may argue (bring it on) but the facts are that they are posing around, pissing about & caught up in Brexit & Cybernat name calling.
      That’s my view. Something. Radical needs to happen.

      I want so much to press yes. I don’t think it will be allowed to happen. Too many external forces with the potential to sabotage a fair and honest referendum. If it doesn’t happen this time then not in my lifetime.

      Not with the current wishy washy approach. We have the right leader but the softest message. It needs ramped up.
      We are also succumbing to Westminster & Media politics; that style won’t achieve independence.

      I said no….but I truly hope we get Indy I just think SNP have gotten too cosy in Westminster

      Hopefully now that #peoplesvote have stabbed them in the back theyll finally learn a lesson re cosying up to Westminster. But i doubt it.

      I’ll never forget SNP big-wig faces at an interview for an SNP job at WM – puzzled looks when I stated I thought the party’s grassroots via social media was a strength/asset, and PANIC when I said that of course we/they were all working hard so they could leave WM asap!

      Looks like when Eck left he took all the courage with him.

      Not unless the SNP grow a spine anytime soon.

      Tough Q, all hinging on different scenarios turning out.
      I being a pessimistic auld git said No, cos i feel playing by UK rules only gets you UK outcome.

      No. I have a life expectancy of five years (chronic condition), and the SNP just isn’t showing sufficient sense of urgency to deliver within that timescale.

      Feel now, after last weekend, that the heid bummers no longer pursue independence, but rather a form of devo max which I do not believe will ever be available to us. Really feel despondent and disillusioned.

      I used to, and I do want it to happen, but I feel its slipping away. I see the way in which many are accused of being x/y/z by elected members of SNP and despair that I’ll ever see it now.

      I don’t think we will, sadly. Independence would be incredible but people are gullible and too easily swayed by unionist propaganda, and SNP ain’t aggressive enough in challenging lies. Even if we did somehow get a YES vote, the Westminster establishment would never let it happen

      Sadly I think there just too many rule britanna arseholes that will vote no regardless, added to that those who believe all the lies they are being told, hopefully one day and I’m here to see it, but I think our chance came and went.

      I have wanted Independence for Scotland all my adult life, but sometimes as currently, I feel despondent at the lack of cohesion amongst the movement, everyone especially the SNP, must learn to tolerate and work together toward our ultimate goal, otherwise it will not happen.

      When the SNP doesn’t include an unconditional referendum in its manifesto and doesn’t put independence front and centre at the GE … you have to ask … are they any use to us?

      We have to give credit where it’s due and the SNP have had this up and running for over half a century, but they must not arrogantly think that they own the movement and must listen to the wider voice, for if they’re complacent it will not serve them or Scotland well.

      I didn’t vote because there’s no option for don’t know/not sure but that would be my answer. I’m bloody hopeful cuz I’m only 26 but honestly atm with the issues within the SNP and the determination of the British lot to stop it by any means I’m worried.

      I would love to vote Yes, am an ardent Indy supporter but am now not confident we will see it in the next 20 years.I really hope i am proved wrong but i think the SNP need to take the gloves off and use everything to their advantage.I am 57 and hope to live at least 20 more years

      Too many Scots simply don’t have the critical thought to grasp that they are being played Westminster and the British Establishment. Scotland will become independent by default, because the English with vote for breaking up the UK before them.

      I said no because I don’t believe the UK will allow it. They will resort to anything, there’s no dirty truck they won’t use. Too many people with too much to lose.

      If you want to see the original comments in context, and/or vote or pass it on –

    98. Effijy says:

      Cubby says:
      11 May, 2019 at 3:59 pm
      Alistair Darling has come out of his crypt and announced he is not convinced by the SNP currency plans for an independent Scotland.

      No I’m sure that the Champagne Socialist Lord Darling, proclaimed Trotskyite, will be delighted to demean his country, Scotland, in order to live in his tax payer Flipped £Million House and Lord it up in his drawing room wearing his Ermine Cloak.

      After bailing out the corrupt UK Casino Bankers with Tax Payers money he landed a nice wee part time job with one that gives him £50K a year and has a £250,000 annual bonus.

      Can’t think for the life of me why he thought he might fit in this following profile:

      Trotskyism is the theory of Marxism as advocated by the Russian revolutionary Leon Trotsky. Trotsky identified as an orthodox Marxist and Bolshevik–Leninist. He supported founding a vanguard party of the proletariat, proletarian internationalism and a dictatorship of the proletariat based on working class self-emancipation and mass democracy.

      He has obviously been a Tory or MI5 Plant in the Labour Party and boy does that job pay well.

      Stoat / Ermine (Mustela erminea) A male stoat is called a ‘dog’
      The stoat, also known as the short-tailed weasel or simply the weasel.

      Lord Darling you are indeed a Stoater!

      No danger of you relocating back to build an Independent Scotland.

      May Self-Constipation be with you!

    99. jfngw says:

      @Simon Curran

      There is little point actually worrying what Lord Darling of Roulanish says, he is an uber unionist and will say whatever is required to keep Scotland under another countries control, he is a patriot, just not a Scottish one.

    100. Terry callachan says:

      Robert Peffers …3.15pm

      Your point about Nicola sturgeon saying there will be a Scottish independence referendum with or without an A30 agreement from Westminster is true but it’s only true if Scotland is being taken out of the EU against its will ( as per the mandate )

      If brexit is cancelled or simply doesn’t happen there will be no Scottish independence referendum for the foreseeable future and at present that is unfortunately a real possibility , so many of us have been thinking that a Scottish independence referendum is coming soon no matter what happens with brexit and that is simply not the case.

    101. Dan says:

      Goodness me. That was an eyeopener. I just had a scroll down the content of Historywoman’s twitter feed.
      I think there’s little benefit in attempting to soften her views as she’s already an extremely useful tool in assisting folk decide which side of the Scottish Independence question they should be on!
      Between her own tweets and the retweets they seem just a wee bit extreme and angry. Not a great advert for the ProUK side.
      I’ve no idea how those folks have the time to sustain that sort of relentless output. Do they ever tweet about other stuff they do in life…

    102. Gary45% says:

      Bon Dias Troops.
      Leave out the freepost on the return envelope, they have to pay for the postage. Then again it’s the lying scum Tories we are referring to.
      Nice One Chris.

    103. Republicofscotland says:

      Quite a few pictures of the Welsh AUOB here, go on Wales you can do it.

    104. HandandShrimp says:

      Incredible air time given to this charlatan. Jackson was all but invisible for the last 6 months and no sooner is the mad colonel back and we get wall to wall second coming of the messiah. A more blatant media hype and bias it would be hard to imagine this side of one of Saddam Hussein’s elections.

    105. Sarah says:

      BBC news online, Welsh politics, report headline “Welsh independence rally brings huge crowds out in Cardiff”.

      The report itself contains an estimate of “2000”.


      2000 for Wales = huge. 100,000 plus in Glasgow = 30,000 and a no-big-deal shrug response. What is it that causes the EBC to take such a different line?

    106. Cubby says:


      “What is it that causes the EBC to take such a different line?”

      Oil, gas, trident and whisky?

    107. Effijy says:

      Sarah says:
      11 May, 2019 at 6:04 pm
      BBC news online, Welsh politics, report headline “Welsh independence rally brings huge crowds out in Cardiff”.
      The report itself contains an estimate of “2000”.
      2000 for Wales = huge. 100,000 plus in Glasgow = 30,000 and a no-big-deal shrug response. What is it that causes the EBC to take such a different line?

      That’s easy England does have to subsidise Wales as thy have strangled its economy.

      Scotland’s resources goes straight into the pockets of England’s rich. Cant let that go now can they.

      Both situations are money boosts for England, dump Wales and imprison Scotland’s wealth.

    108. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Cubby @ 15:59,

      Now that the younger brother of the Rev. I.M. Jolly – Jolly Jr. – has emerged from his ermine-lined coffin to pronounce that we can’t possibly have our own currency, just ‘cos, I’m giving up any hope of indy and taking up daisy-farming instead.

      Or alternatiely inwardly mocking the abject futility of such empty pronouncements and eagerly anticipating a Bitter Together 2 that rapidly crumbles under the weight of its own shameful broken promises.

      Guess which.

      We need more satire. Much more satire. These clowns truly deserve it.

    109. Dr Jim says:

      @Sarah 6:04pm

      The mostly pensioners of Scotland must under no circumstances ever be allowed to know what the rest of us know because if they do find out the real truth England and its dreams of Brexit Independence and all the lies in between and before will surface and the pensioners might vote Yes and without Scotland England becomes a shadow of itself and its econonmy shrinks to embarrassingly low levels and only London survives

      Whereas Wales has little to no effect on the economy of England and at the moment unfortunately for them they’re subsidised by Scotland’s wealth redistributed as part of the glorious UK

      No offence to Wales but they’re not quite ready yet, but good on them for making the noise and let’s hope the people of Wales get behind the idea, and who knows

    110. Sarah says:

      @ Cubby and Effijy: I’m shocked at the difference in EBC reporting. So blatant.

      I shouldn’t be shocked by now, I know. It is scandalous though.

    111. dakk says:

      Nice one Chris.

      Davidson has a face that not even an offspring could love surely.

      No oeudipus complex likely to be an issue with that particular mummy is there?

      Oops there goes that creepy trashiness in me again.

      I had better shove that rod back up my arse in case I upset Gus , Alyn,and the Herald luvvies.

    112. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Sarah @ 18:21,

      Think of it as a reverse compliment. No disrespect to Wales, but it’s the departure of Scotland they truly fear. When we bail, their golden goose is gone.

    113. Dr Jim says:

      We probably should start a count of how many SNP MPs and MSPs will be in line for the smearing over the next year

      Women smearing men, women smearing women, trans people smearing everybody, what do we think one a week? per month maybe? they like saving them up for Fridays so the papers can get a whole weekend out of the smearings

      And that’s not even counting the supporters the members the jannie the cleaner the folk in the post room

      Liberal Democrat paedophiles are all good though, they’re noble apparently and actually legally guilty but you know what SNP stands for in Westminster ……………

      *Shall Not Pass*

    114. Robert Peffers says:

      @Simon Curran says: 11 May, 2019 at 5:35 pm:
      ” … The same Alistair Darlin IIRC rather late in the day finally admitted that Scotland could use sterling after all.”

      Well, Simon, if you really want the whole, and brutal, truth I’ll lay it out for you in detail right now. You may not like it but it is the truth.

      As a secondary schoolboy I had a really brilliant history teacher and I took an interest in that part of Scotland’s history that concerned the formation of the United Kingdom for by coincidence I had also filled in my Sunday afternoons at Speaker’s Corner at the Foot of The Mound in Edinburgh. I was inspired by some great Scottish Nationalists of that era.

      So I’ve been telling Scots the truth about many things to do with the Union ever since and here are just a few of the relevant things I’ve been telling anyone who would listen ever since.

      The union was constituted by the Treaty of Union and thus the Treaty of Union is the Written Constitution of the United Kingdom. The Treaty of Union states that the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England have incompatible legal systems that must remain forever independent. That both kingdoms will use The Pound Sterling as their own currency and that Scottish Banks have legal right to print their own banknotes, (a.k.a. Promissory Notes).

      Now both kingdoms must have been equally sovereign independent kingdoms in order to sign up to an International Treaty. here are only two kingdom’s as partners in the United Kingdom but the United Kingdom includes four distinct countries and three of those comprise the Kingdom of England.

      Now here are a few supplementary truths:-

      The Bank of England that became a part pf the Union in 1707 did NOT belong to the Kingdom of England and its full title was, and is, “The Guvnor & Company of the Bank of England”, it did NOT belong to the Kingdom of England because it was then a private company and called the Bank of England because the Crown/Government of England banked with it. Just as you probably refer to the bank you bank with as Your Bank. However, in 1946 the Bank of England was nationalised by the United Kingdom and is thus as much Scotland’s as it is England’s.

      So there is the plain unvarnished truth but here is the twist in the story – On 30 of April 1707 the Westminster Parliament of the Kingdom of England was permanently dissolved as it had sat and formally dissolved itself. Thus the Kingdom of England Parliament ended forever on that date. There has been no legally elected Parliament of England since that date.

      However, due to the Scottish people rioting in the streets, and who would have lynched the parliamentarians if they had caught them, the old Scottish Parliament was only Prorogued, (temporarily dissolved), and the ending was only made public by town criers round the streets of Edinburgh.

      When the Holyrood Parliament was opened for its first session Winnie Ewing, a very astute lawyer and MSP, reconvened it not just opened it. So Holyrood is legally the old, reconvened Scots Parliament and legally elected as such.

      So here is the truth – Westminster is not the parliament of England and when the union disunites England doesn’t have a legally elected parliament because the United Kingdom Government has just disunited but Scotland has a legally elected parliament.

      Westminster no longer rules and in any case England doesn’t own the Pound Sterling it belongs equally to both kingdoms. The Bank of England also belongs to both Kingdoms so The indyref 1 threats to prevent Scotland using the pound were utter rubbish as was the threats that the Bank of England belonged to England and could prevent Scotland having a say in the economy.

      So there is the brutal truth the Scottish electorate were just too ill informed and stupid and believed what the Britnats told them to believe – and guess what? They bloody-well still are.

      Brainwashing and propaganda still rules.

    115. Mac says:

      Stick with me in this post, as what I am going to say has the potential to offend some people. To offend anyone, is not my intent. I merely want to explain where I am coming from in terms of argument and personal belief.

      First, I am an Atheist. What I call an assertive atheist. But I will not come knocking on your doors, pushing my beliefs, nor will I fight in (anti)holy wars or attack Mosques, Churches, Kirks or Synagogues. You will not find me marching past your place of worship playing a loud instrument, shouting ‘Fuck the Gods’. Nor am I interested in drawing cartoons of your deity.

      Why would I?

      Science, quantum theory, space-time, logic, rationale, anthropology and Occam’s Razor are more my ‘cup-of-tea.’

      Technically, I was brought up Protestant, although I did spend some time in a Catholic primary school. (Believe or not, I can still recite the books of the Old Testament by heart.)
      I am not at all a footie fan, simply because of the whole Catholic / Protestant nonsense. I hated all that primeval, tribal crap from a young age.

      Now the offensive part. My personal beliefs. My internal thinking, that I generally don’t share, out of respect for people’s ‘sensitivities’. If you do get wound up about ‘people disrespecting your beliefs’ I suggest you turn away now.

      I believe that Religion of any description, is primitive, delusional, superstitious nonsense, has no place in a civilised world, and certainly not in politics or education.

      And I know that this is going to be considered extreme by some, but I consider that the indoctrination of children into any religion, is nothing less than child abuse.

      Controversially, I believe that Atheists are generally smarter people, than narrow minded, extremists or bigots. The Orange Lodges and the Vatican disgust me equally for their extreme views, manipulation, control and abuse of others.

      I can argue for days, perhaps weeks on ‘Why there is no God’, but this is not the purpose of this post. It’s not to argue for Atheism against religion. Or why the Bible and Koran are historically inaccurate.

      In my decades, I have learned that there is no value in debating ‘God’ with a deeply religious person who has been indoctrinated since an early age. They have belief or faith. They will never listen to rationale argument or logic. There is no point in me wheeling out all the Atheist arguments that have been posed by better thinkers than me. Live and let live is my credo.

      My wife is Orthodox and gets ‘great comfort’ from the tranquillity of a Church. Good luck to anyone who finds peace in this world. My young Indian colleague genuinely believes in Ganesha, a deity with a trunk. Both probably sleep better than I.

      The point is, our personal beliefs are sacrosanct (pardon the connotation). Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and all others, including the Great Spaghetti Monster (if you don’t believe me, look it up) and we Atheists. No one has the right to tell any of the others that they are wrong. Much less the Shia versus Sunni, or the Catholic versus Protestant bullshit.

      So, my first argument, is that we all should leave our personal beliefs behind us when we are trying to build a better community, a better country, a better Scotland, and a better world.

      It’s clear that Catholics suffered severe discrimination in Scotland over the centuries, and that history is locked into the today’s Establishment (Royalty, Judiciary, Elite, Banking, Masonic Lodges, and government). This has to change.

      A society cannot be fair and progressive where there remains ‘threads’ of the past that are denied, yet still used to control. Westminster is an anachronistic representation of this past, we only have to look at the ‘5th of November’ to see how the threads of the past are inextricably woven into our culture.

      The point I am getting to, is that the UK is trapped in time, in the past, it has hardly moved on. It was denied a proper revolution to bring about some step change. And Westminster politics is a big part of this historical madness. (Yes Ruthie, I include you and the Orange Order in this madness)

      Bigots are the minority, unfortunately, they often make the biggest noise.

      How happy I was, to see Wales start to wake up and call for Independence. How much happier I will be to see Catholics, Protestants and Atheists leaving their religious differences aside and aligning to fight for a better Scotland. To continue as now, is to allow the UK Establishment to use you to maintain control.

      Break Westminster, and the religious divide in Scotland will disappear overnight.

      My second argument is this. Much as it is impossible to change a religious mind, it is impossible to influence a member of the Establishment of any benefits of Scottish Independence. Darling and his ilk are in permanent denial.

      Take May, she genuinely believes we are all unreasonable separatists trying to destroy the status quo. She cannot put herself in our shoes. She cannot assimilate our beliefs; she cannot empathise with us in any respect. (I use May as example, but I could equally have used Boris Jonson or an English Banking friend of mine, who just ‘cannot get it’.

      Like religion, the Unionists suffer massive cognitive dissonance when we raise any counter argument to the status quo. (So, if my atheist views upset you, you might understand how we irritate the Establishment)

      And now the end, finally. The point is that there will become a time for Scotland to take her Independence. Freedom never came easy to any colony and we need to stop kidding ourselves that independence will ever be a free gift from the hegemonic Westminster Establishment.

      Make no mistake, Scottish or Welsh independence are both a Revolution of sorts. As long as people like Darling tweet about currency and the impossible, we know that we are indeed at war.

    116. Colin Alexander says:

      UK Union “democracy”:

      Unelected House of Lords blocking the Continuity Bill passed by the elected Scottish Parliament.

      Democratically elected Scottish Parliament voted to allow another Indyref.

      Scotland is told by the UK Govt: No, you’re no having one.

      The UK Govt don’t want another indyref cos more and more people see Scotland’s future as an independent country.

      That’s no the final story: Scotland shall be free of this undemocratic Union.

    117. Abulhaq says:

      Independence is rather like that holiday you look forward to until the time you have to get the visa, do the packing, hang around at the airport…..the older you get the more bother, so I’m told.
      With an ageing population Scotland is rather like that.
      It’s the weakness Unionist’s like to stoke.
      The enigmatic English expression “never look a gift horse in the mouth” applies now.
      Time we had action, not posing, from the ‘movers and shakers’.
      Brexit or no Brexit, there is a rich harvest to be gathered.
      The Scottish propensity for clutching defeat from the jaws of victory is the lingering spectre at the feast. Time we laid this psychological ghost.

    118. A C Bruce says:

      “The point is that there will become a time for Scotland to take her Independence. Freedom never came easy to any colony and we need to stop kidding ourselves that independence will ever be a free gift from the hegemonic Westminster Establishment.”

      Which is why I will never understand the Scottish Government going cap in hand asking for a S30 order from the very people and institutions which are trying to keep us tied to them.

      *Robert Peffers, if you’re lurking, please don’t tell me I’m a dope for not understanding all of this and repeating that you do.

    119. Pete says:

      Still waiting for the offensive bit.
      Very tame stuff IMO

    120. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Mac @ 18:35,

      Frankly, I don’t see the point of bringing religion into the issue of independence at all. A temptation particular to zealots. It only offers the opposition yet another diversionary stick to try to beat us with. Confusion is their only remaining weapon. So why bother?

      There is absolutely no advantage to us in doing this. No advantage whatever.

    121. Achnababan says:

      galamcennalath at 1.36pm says referring to the Glencoe Massacre:

      Perhaps because it wasn’t? It happened 15 years before the Union. The Massacre was one part of the struggle to put William II on the Scottish throne, which was opposed by Jacobites. Battle of Killiecrankie etc..

      Yes G’lath in terms of historical detail you are sort of right but in terms of the big picture, the massacre was a proto British project and ‘teaching the Jacobite Highlanders a lesson’ was seen by the British party in Scotland as an essential measure to secure the political Union. It was planned and orchestrated by leading supporters of the British party in Scotland and they exploited local animosities to get the job done. Very clever, very British.

      Bets to avoid Wikipedia – it generally provides superficial accounts of complex histories and can easily be subverted. Try the work of Historians instead, For example,

      Ferguson, William. “The Making of the Treaty of Union of 1707” Scottish Historical Review 43, (1964), p. 89-110.

      Or an easier read there is of course Prebble’s excellent book

    122. Pete says:

      Dr Jim
      Some way back you mentioned about Nigel Farage being on QT and Heidi Allen being pulled from HIGNFY.
      First of all QT is a political programme on which the BBC tries to give balance but, from a Brexit point of view consistently stuffs the panel with Remainers. On Thursday there were only 2 Leavers, Farage and Mills so I find it difficult to see what complaint you can have bearing in mind that Brexit is THE topic of the moment. Despite the fanaticism of the people on here, very few people in the UK are the slightest bit interested in the ins and outs of Scottish Independence.
      Regarding the other programme, it is entertainment and, at election time it is probably correct to keep politicians off it.
      Hope you can agree as you always appear to be a bit more reasonable than some others.

    123. ronnie anderson says:

      Welsh Sion all the bestest to your Welsh compatriots

    124. A C Bruce says:

      Well captured, Chris.

      That expression and the UJ are just as horrible in cartoon form as in real life.

      They both give me an unpleasant chill.

    125. chicmac says:

      On one of those ‘move to the country’ shows this week, as part of setting the scene, North Wales being the area, they showed a video clip of Snowdon. The presenter described it as the ‘highest mountain in Wales AND ENGLAND’ (my emphasis).

      How does that sit?

    126. ronnie anderson says:

      Am no wan fur Cricket but watching John Butler on the bat I might become ah cricket fan ah said ah cricket fan no a Englandish fan of cricket lol.

    127. Legerwood says:

      Terry callachan at 5:48 pm

      Even if Brexit is cancelled the mere fact that it happened, and in the process laid bare Scotland’s lack of clout in this Union, means that there is still a case for indyref 2 because all the main players who pushed for Brexit will still be in place and will, sooner rather than later, start to push for it again. A situation that will mean constant turmoil and uncertainty.

      If Brexit is cancelled it is also highly likely that the UK’s previous position in Europe will be weakened not least because of the constant agitation from certain quarters for another attempt at Brexit.

      The Scottish Government has exploited Brexit to maximum effect by using it to demonstrate to the people of Scotland that their wishes, to stay in the EU is ignored. And ignored no matter how reasonable and workable the proposals put forward by the SG. Proposals that would protect Scotland’s economy but have been dismissed out of hand by Westminster.

      People in Scotland have not been blind to that behaviour.

    128. Welsh Sion says:

      Thanks for all the good wishes – returned with interest. (Fuds, excepted.)

      BBC report ‘hundreds’ marching in Caerdydd/Cardiff today for indy.

      The Guardian describes the crowds in ‘thousands’.

      Draw your usual MSM/’state broadcaster’ conclusions.

    129. Welsh Sion says:

      chicmac @ 7.27 pm

      I get your point, but actually it’s quite pleasing to know that nothing in England reaches the heights of yr Wyddfa/Snowdon (1 085 m / 3560 ft.) We already knew this – and in fact on a clear day, I can see said peak from my bedroom window, 2 miles away.

      Note the grammar: In Cymraeg/Welsh, we say ‘in Wales and England’ in English, they say, ‘in England and Wales’.

      Incidentally, you will all recall that we are no longer tied in ‘union’ with said Eastern neighbour since 21 December 1993 – Welsh Language Act 1993 Sch. 2: Repeal of the Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542 aka ‘the Acts of Union’.

    130. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@4.11pm

      I’d like to see an MSP or Sturgeon put a question/point to Willie Rennie about Steels reinstatement at FMQ’s.

      Steel should be in jail imo.

    131. Dr Jim says:


      You’ve got the wrong guy Pete, wasn’t me, I’ve never made any reference to Heidi Allen or HIGNFY for as long as I can remember, I don’t even watch it

    132. yesindyref2 says:

      Wow, talk about censorship. It looks like every posting I ever made (as dadsarmy) on UKDJ has been deleted.

      Last article I commented on was this:

      where I pointed out several errors, specially ones back to 2014 when there were no SSNs (Astutes or Trafalgars) based at Faslane, contrary to the claim in the article:

      So where does this claim come from?

      It appears to originate back in 2014 when Alex Salmond said:

      “The navy does not have a single major surface vessel based in Scotland. The largest protection vessels stationed in Scottish waters are those of the fisheries protection vessels run by the Scottish government. It is absurd for a nation with a coastline longer than India’s to have no major surface vessels. And it’s obscene for a nation of five million people to host weapons of mass destruction.”

      This is a curious statement in my opinion and in my view, it seems to be tad disingenuous as many of the vessels based in Scotland are submarines and not “major surface vessels” as Alex Salmond was keen to stress but are smaller patrol vessels and submarines. Making a distinction like that ignores the most capable anti-surface warfare vessels in the British fleet, the nuclear powered (not armed) submarines.

      Why would anyone, when discussing how well Scotland is defended, want to discount the submarines?

      perhaps because they were based at Devonport NOT Faslane?

    133. Robert Peffers says:

      @Abulhaq says: 11 May, 2019 at 6:50 pm:

      ” … The Scottish propensity for clutching defeat from the jaws of victory is the lingering spectre at the feast.”

      Of course you are right, Abulhaq.


      That is if you are set upon keeping up that great, “Scottish propensity for clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.”, and that is most often brought about by jumping into the fight, battle, match or whatever all full of a great enthusiasm for the fight and ending up the bedraggled losers because you went in too soon and without proper preparation.

      How many here remember Ally MacLeod? football player and manager. Best known for his time as the Scotland national football team manager, including their appearance at the 1978 FIFA World Cup.

      Not a bad left winger on the field. Not a bad manager at club level and not even a bad manager at international level but he was really great at snatching defeat from victory. at that level.

    134. Lenny Hartley says:

      Mac as a Pastarafarian i take exception with you lumping us in with inferior religions such as Islam and Christianity. Joking aside I am a Pastarafrian btw , i think thatany body who believes in Talking Snakes needs their heids looked at.

    135. yesindyref2 says:

      Just in case of any more funny junk, yrtis

      Quite shocking actually, and rather futile. Several of the posters there know me, and I can communicate elsewhere …

    136. Cubby says:

      Terry callacham@5.48pm

      Material change in circumstances e.g. Being taken out of the EU against our will. Note EG means for example.

      Last time I looked Terry Callachan wasn’t deciding whether there would be an indyref2 of not.

    137. Hamish100 says:


      you seem to think QT is pro remain . Really?

      You can google on line and get the list of attendees at all QT Programmes. You will find that you are wrong.
      Of course QT is supposed to be more than just Brexit however important. Explain why the 3rd Largest party is continually overlooked from QT and its sister programme Any Questions compared to when the Lib dems were in 3rd spot. When in coalition with the tories we had both parties representing 1 government.
      Still I am sure you are fair minded and accept the facts as presented.
      Still I am sure we will have the usual imported luvvie from down south next time QT is in Scotland to tell us how much loved we are and to do as we are told.

    138. Robert Peffers says:

      @A C Bruce says:11 May, 2019 at 7:06 pm:

      ” … *Robert Peffers, if you’re lurking, please don’t tell me I’m a dope for not understanding all of this and repeating that you do.”

      o.k. I won’t tell you. You seem well enough aware of it all by yourself. Mind you it would be much easier to do if you didn’t keep stirring up discontent. I wouldn’t mind if there was firm evidence that we stood a great chance of gaining independence by having a decent majority support.

      Need i remind you that just before the actual ballot YES was reportedly in the lead – then they counted the votes and it wasn’t. Yet here we are again getting ready to do that same mistake all over again and numpties railing against the leaders and calling them all sorts of losers and fearties and worse.

    139. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here the link to Nicola Sturgeon’s tweet this morning.

      It says ‘It’s time for independence, Scotland. #ItsTime’

      Please have a swift gander at the replies and consider the similarity to the selection I copied from that poll (@5.36, above).

      The concerns being aired are real, and people are telling them to the FM directly.

      There may be some who enjoy being teased, aye, but this cannot go on for much longer.

    140. A C Bruce says:

      RP @ 8.11

      You can’t resist.

    141. ronnie anderson says:

      Lenny Hartley Kin ah hiv extra sauce oan mine lol

    142. Cactus says:

      Boss, ah cannae comment…

      We good?

      Aye ahm

    143. Pete says:

      Dr Jim
      My sincere apologies.
      It was jfngw.

    144. Dr Jim says:


      It’s cool

    145. Pete says:

      Just checked and between 2017 to the present there were 303 Remainers and 153 Leavers.
      The leavers includes Conservatives who voted remain but who then recanted and came out for Leave such as Liz Truss and Jeremy Hunt.
      Don’t know where you got your data?

    146. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 11 May, 2019 at 7:14 pm:

      ” … Frankly, I don’t see the point of bringing religion into the issue of independence at all.”

      Well really I wouldn’t expect you to, Robert. Yet the entire history of this bloody Union, (and I use that term advisedly), is, besides being steeped in blood, bound up with religion and religious bigotry. It still is and will remain so as long as the United Kingdom is a monarchy. don’t you understand what a monarchy is?

      ” … A temptation particular to zealots.”

      Now that one really is hilarious?

      ” … It only offers the opposition yet another diversionary stick to try to beat us with.”

      Whatever makes you imagine they need any excuse, Robert?

      Have the unionists not already, without any urging from the independence movement, called in the support of not only the Orange Order but the Ulster Unionists?

      ” … Confusion is their only remaining weapon. So why bother?”

      Whatever gave you the idea that others, besides yourself were confused?

      So it looks very like I’m going to have to prove the point – yet again. Here is the second article of Union from the Treaty of Union – you may like to study it and then attempt again to argue that religion and sectarianism is not at the centre of the union:-

      “II. ‘That the Succession to the Monarchy of the united Kingdom of Great-Britain, and of the Dominions thereunto belonging, after her most sacred Majesty, and in default of Issue of her Majesty, be, remain, and continue to the most Excellent Princess Sophia, Electress and Duchess Dowager of Hanover, and the Heirs of her Body, being Protestants, upon whom the Crown of England is settled, by an Act of Parliament made in England, in the twelfth Year of the Reign of his late Majesty King William the Third, entitled, An Act for further Limitation of the Crown, and better securing the Rights and Liberties of the Subject. And that all Papists, and Persons marrying Papists, shall be excluded from, and for ever incapable to inherit, possess, or enjoy the imperial Crown of Great-Britain, and the Dominions thereunto belonging, or any Part thereof. And in every such Case, the Crown and Government shall from Time to Time descend to, and be enjoyed by such Person, being a Protestant, as should have inherited and enjoyed the same, in case such Papist, or Person marrying a Papist, was naturally dead, according to the Provision for the Defcent of the Crown of England, made by another Act of Parliament in England, in the first Year of the Reign of their late Majesties King William and Queen Mary, entitled, An Act declaring the Rights and Liberties of the Subject, and settling the Succession of the Crown.”

      Today we still have a Protestant Queen on the Thrones of both kingdoms in the Union and Westminster using the Ulster Unionists to take both kingdoms out of Europe.

    147. cirsium says:

      @Ian Brotherhood, 5.36

      Good post – thanks for showing these comments. The line which keeps going through my head at the moment is Elvis Presley’s “a little less talk, a little more action”.

    148. Dorothy Devine says:

      I really love the saltire but have always been a sucker for a dragon and it was great to see them fluttering in Cardiff .

      Well done wee Wales!

    149. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Firstly, I have to say that Mr Cairns’ caricature skills are coming on leaps and bounds. He must be sticking in at his homework!

      Hi Welsh Sion at 7:37 pm.

      You typed,
      “I get your point, but actually it’s quite pleasing to know that nothing in England reaches the heights of yr Wyddfa/Snowdon (1 085 m / 3560 ft.) We already knew this – and in fact on a clear day, I can see said peak from my bedroom window, 2 miles away.”

      It was just your mention of “2 miles” that inspired this comment.
      There is a mountain (a Munro) in northern Perthshire called Schiehallion. It is quite famous, as can be seen from the Wikipedia page. Here’s a quote:

      “The Schiehallion experiment
      Schiehallion’s isolated position and regular shape led it to be selected by Charles Mason for a ground-breaking experiment to estimate the mass of the Earth in 1774.[8]
      The deflection of a pendulum by the mass of the mountain provided an estimate of the mean density of the Earth, from which its mass and a value for Newton’s Gravitational constant G could be deduced.
      Mason turned down a commission to carry out the work and it was instead coordinated by Astronomer Royal, Nevil Maskelyne. He was assisted in the task by mathematician Charles Hutton, who devised a graphical system to represent large volumes of surveyed heights, later known as contour lines.”

      The distance from Schiehallion [h 1,083 m (3,553 ft)] to Dundee Law [h 174 m (571 feet)], direct line of sight, is 44.4 miles.

      Here is confirmation:

      On a clear day, Schiehallion can be seen with the naked eye from Dundee Law. A pal, Neale Elder (who is an occasional Winger), managed to capture a pic of Schiehallion from the Law on a clear day.
      Schiehallion is the snow-covered triangle at the top, in the distance, centre-left.

    150. Republicofscotland says:

      Yesindyref2 @19.45.

      I tried umpteen times to comment on the UKDJ, without success. I’m pretty sure its monitored by the British states online propaganda 77th brigade stationed at Denison barracks.

    151. Dan says:

      Euro Guy getting telt in case folks missed it.

    152. Welsh Sion says:

      Dorothy Devine.

      Thank you. If you look closely you’ll see y ddraig goch and the Saltire together in Caerdydd/Cardiff, today!

      (Video included in link)

      Organisers say 2 000+ present!

    153. Robert Peffers says:

      @A C Bruce says: 11 May, 2019 at 8:20 pm:

      “RP @ 8.11
      You can’t resist.”

      I didn’t tell you what you asked me not to tell you but I will if you want me to.

    154. A C Bruce says:

      RP @ 9.13

      Nah! You’re alright.

      I don’t want to know how it ends. I’ll wait for the surprise!

    155. Cubby says:


      “Despite the fanaticism of people on here……..”

      Gratuitous all embracing insult. Not many can insult so widely in so few words.

    156. DerekM says:

      @ Welsh Sion

      Congratulations on taking your first steps towards independence today 🙂

      I noticed a shift of focus by the spooks towards you guys today so you definitely have them worried.

      What to expect well to start with you will be tagged as vile nationalists,your movement will now be searched for posts online that can be used to back the vile nationalist smear against you,there will also be a lot of fake Welsh indy accounts created attacking the English so you can get hit with the old Anglophobe and nazi smear.

      But do not be disheartened by this you must focus on getting the truth to your people ,you guys need to find yourself a brave fearless if a bit crazy Welsh Rev Stu to debunk the lies in your country.

      We will do our best from here to help you take down the British nationalist snake that is Labour.

      Man its a pretty sight seeing the Dragon awaken 🙂

    157. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Terence callachan at 2.04

      I have no idea where you draw some of your conclusions from. Mostly from the trolls on this and other sites I would imagine (unless you are one of them).
      Please keep up
      The FM has just said “the time for independence is now.” She has just announced that we are starting the biggest independence campaign ever. Independence is not reliant on Brexit and she never said it was. She just said Brexit makes independence even more neccessary.
      Our manifesto said “a material change of circumstance SUCH AS being dragged out of the EU against our will” was one reason and referenced an evident majority desire for independence among Scots as another starting gun.
      We can do without our “supporters” doing our enemy’s work for them and repeating unionist distrotions.

      Craig Murray indeed writes very well. He’s terribly good at understanding what a crowd in front of him wants to hear.
      He has an argument with the SNP however which appears to colour his views.
      The latest reliable poll has the SNP getting four of the six Euro seats. But I suppose we won’t be happy till we are guaranteed all six?

    158. manandboy says:

      We all prefer something we can rely on, well, you can rely on this by Ian Dunt:-

      “Like Robocop, she (May) has three prime directives: 1: Survive internal and external political threats. 2: Negotiate the deal. 3: Pass it. There are no more directives. She just does this over and over again.

      Her tactics are similarly unchanged. They are to say anything and do nothing. Whatever is required to survive the day, she will say it. But that has no particular bearing on her future behaviour. It’s so simple and obvious, but it has genuinely flummoxed people, because we still contain within us the last vestigial traces of our liberal naivety. We simply don’t think prime ministers lie directly to us. This one does. Relentlessly.

      “In a complex and fraught debate, these are the two things you can rely on: That things hardly ever change and that the prime minister will say anything to stay in power and then go back on it later. The second makes the first harder to perceive. It creates moments where we assume news has happened, only to later discover it has not.”

    159. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 20:43,

      I don’t understand how you can at times be so obtuse. History is all very well, I’m a devotee myself, but it does absolutely f-all to convince ordinary voters in the present day to move to indy. It is already as clear as daylight that come IR2 (or whatever transpires), the BritNat response will be to obfuscate and confuse, adding any possible diversions they can to distract people from the basic fact that they have absolutely nothing to offer.

      Yet you would help them out by wanting to add more. Help ma boab! Give another raft of my-way-or-highway useful idiots a reason to tweet that the SNP is failing them and they are voting for some other party. I mean, just how daft can you get?

      It’s just as well that the SNP leadership don’t pay the least bit of attention to your perverse tactics. But it does go some way to explain the reaction of to some of what they encounter online.

    160. Hamish100 says:

      How quick you count. I have another figure 62%.

      How many times did a SNP representative appear as a 3rd party.

    161. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “Second Brexit referendum would be doing SNP’s work, Boris Johnson claims”

      “Johnson was among a series of potential leadership candidates who were “discouraged” by the Scottish Tory leader, Ruth Davidson, from attending the Scottish Conservative conference in Aberdeen last weekend due to concerns their appearance could distract from her return from maternity leave.”

    162. Cactus says:

      Cool Rev, ahm gonnae take some thyme to think

      Heading west soon



    163. A C Bruce says:

      “And let us be in no doubt the damage the nationalists would do. They would not only destroy the oldest and most successful political union in the world, they would destroy the very concept of Britain.” Boris Johnson, The Guardian

      Apparently, we’re in the most successful union in the world. I’ve never noticed. It feels more like Hotel California.

      Well, no S 30 from BoJo then.

    164. Cubby says:

      Lenny Hartley@7.52pm

      “Talking snakes” and talking burning bushes. I guess LSD has been around a lot longer than some might think. Or was it just the mushrooms.

    165. DerekM says:

      This drawing is disturbing gives me the shivers lol

    166. Cubby says:

      A C Bruce@10.17pm

      “Apparently, we’re in the most successful union in the world.”

      Very true for London and the south east of England. Not at all for everyone else.

    167. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @cirsium (8.48) –

      Cheers aplenty.

      Good to see your name popping up there. I haven’t been around much lately so you may have been posting regularly for all I know! In any case, it’s nice to see a familiar name when so many have fallen away.


    168. mr thms says:

      It would be brilliant if Scotland can send more MEPs to the parliament of the European Union than the Conservative Party can muster for the whole of the UK.

    169. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I believe, the turnout for the EU election in 2014 was around 29%. That low turnout allowed Coburn to sneak in.

      This time, in a fortnight, we have to get the pro-Indy vote out to the max. I read somewhere, that something like a 42% turnout would give the SNP at least four seats, possibly five, with the other parties fighting over what’s left.

      There is our target.

    170. geeo says:

      @DMH 9.49pm

      Good to hear about that polling re: 4 EU SNP Seats.

      Sits rather nicely with WM voting intentions from opinium latest poll (no idea how reliable they are)

      New Opinion poll shows a Tory and Labour wipeout in Scotland with the Lib Dems gaining 1 seat:

      SNP: 53 (+18)
      LD: 5 (-)
      LAB: 1(-6)
      CON: 0 (-13)

    171. jfngw says:

      Sunday Mail worried that Labour will lose their MEP have decided the best bet is to support the Greens in the hope of Splitting the Remain parties vote. Does anyone believe the Sunday Mail are Green supporters, what next The Spectator telling you to vote Corbyn?

      Are there no depth these creatures will not sink to try and keep Scotland controlled by another country.

    172. Dr Jim says:

      Remember when the FM would Tweet about Independence it made the news, in fact anything she Tweeted tended to make the news

      Now nothing, absolutely nada

      We’re all thinking the same thing aren’t we

    173. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “Nigel Farage is potentially only a few percentage points away from becoming Prime Minister in a snap election.”

      “It’s certainly conceivable that if Britain hasn’t left the European Union by the time the election is held, Nigel Farage could end up leading a sizeable group of Brexit Party MPs in the House of Commons.”

    174. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Agree with you @Brian Doonthetoon

      Scotland has to get the vote out for the SNP in the EU Elections.

      Only apathy (like GE2017) and splitters (think Green/RISE etc.) can stop 4 SNP MEPs getting returned (5 would be amazing and very unlikely but the GE 2015 results show that this is not an impossible task).

      Looks like FaRadge Brexit Party returning MEPs at the expense of Tories & Labour south of the border.

    175. CameronB Brodie says:

      The British state can try all it might to keep hold of Scotland, but time is running out for those who would dominate Scotland. A people will not be kept captive by maladministration of “bad” law.

      Openness to Experience

      Confronted with the choice, the American people
      would choose the policeman’s truncheon over the
      anarchist’s bomb.

      An intellectual is a man who doesn’t know how
      to park a bike. Attributed to Spiro T. Agnew

      Their ethics are a short summary of police
      ordinances; for them the most important thing
      is to be a useful member of the state, and to air
      their opinions in the club of an evening; they
      have never felt homesickness for something
      unknown and far away . . . Søren Kierkegaard (1936)

      This chapter is arguably misplaced. It was assigned to a section on cognition in a book on individual differences in social behavior. Yet Openness to Experience is not a cognitive disposition, nor is it a dimension of social behavior. McCrae and Costa (1997) argued that Openness must be understood “in both structural and motivational terms.

      Openness is seen in the breadth, depth, and permeability of consciousness, and in the recurrent need to enlarge and examine experience” (p. 826). This description makes Openness fundamentally an intrapsychic variable, associated with such esoteric phenomena as chills in response to sudden beauty (McCrae, 2007), the experience of déjà vu (McCrae, 1994), and homesickness for the unknown.

      Yet, as the Editors understand, these characteristics of mind have profound consequences for social behavior at all levels, much of it mediated by cognitive processes. Openness affects social perceptions and the formation of social attitudes, the choice of friends and spouses, political activity and cultural innovation. All these connections were pointed out in an earlier review (McCrae, 1996); this chapter can be seen as an update.

    176. Cubby says:

      Farage and Boris in charge at Westminster = no deal or hard Brexit = independent Scotland = united Ireland.

      So all you glass half empty Independence supporters – cheer up.

    177. Lenny Hartley says:

      Cubby, its a miracle i tell ye!

    178. Ian Brotherhood

      Very aware I have not been posting much recently but to be honest my feet are scarcely touching the ground just now- very busy.

      however, always try and keep an eye on the discussions. and enjoyed the march last week.

      Latest opinium poll is amazing.Will be leafletting locally next week so not much chance to clock in then either. Keeping the flame burning and doing my best to convert friends/colleagues and relatives to Yes, Remain.

    179. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 22:54,

      Amen to that.

      I found it encouraging that Gina Miller’s pro-Remain mob are getting 100% behind the SNP for this. Nicola’s strategy seems to be earning some payback. Link (thanks to Welsh Sion in the previous thread):

      That source could prove useful to any of you trying to “unlock” any pro-Remain soft-no’s of your acquaintance…

    180. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Hey (woke) boi, where you been?

    181. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Ah gots a big won here bawss, juss lemme keep reelin’ him in with dis. Pat me on da head bawss, pat me on da head.

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      I’ll assume you’re attempting to wind me up there. Are you still hostile to different cultures then? Care to explain your reason for supporting Scottish independence?

      The Psychology of Intellectual Humility

      Psychologists have been interested for many years in people’s tendency to be unjustifiably certain of their beliefs. Early work on this topic began in the aftermath of World War II with research on the authoritarian personality, a constellation of characteristics that includes the conviction that one’s own beliefs and attitudes are absolutely correct and that those who disagree are misguided, if not evil (Adorno, Frenkel-Brunswik, Levinson, & Sanford, 1950). Because authoritarianism was associated specifically with right-wing political views, Rokeach (1960) developed a measure of closed-mindedness that was independent of particular beliefs, initiating work on the construct of dogmatism (see Duckitt, 2009).

      Later, research on this topic was complemented by work on the personality trait of openness, which includes, among other things, the willingness to consider new ideas, values, and actions (Macrae & Sutin, 2009). Other characteristics associated with open- and closedmindedness that have attracted attention include need for cognitive closure (Kruglanski, & Webster, (1996), the “quest” religious orientation (Batson & Schoenrade, 1991), attitude correctness (Petrocelli, Tormala, & Rucker, 2007), belief superiority (Toner, Leary, Asher, & Jongman-Sereno, 2013), and social vigilantism (Saucier & Webster, 2010).

      The recent emergence of scholarly interest in intellectual humility falls squarely in this family of psychological constructs. To understand a construct, psychologists generally want to know, at minimum, three things: (1) the nature of the core or defining phenomenon, (2) cognitive, motivational, emotional, and behavioral features of the phenomenon, and how they relate, and (3) the factors that influence the phenomenon – both situational factors that cause the phenomenon to occur in particular situations, and personality characteristics that reflect differences in the degree to which people manifest the phenomenon. This review examines each of these topics.

    183. Capella says:

      I see from Stu’s twitter that the Mail on Sunday is backing The Scottish Greens in the EU elections. But they don’t back the Greens in their English sister paper. What a cynical bunch of liars they are.

      According to the Gina Miller advice site, the Greens will not win any seats, even with tactical voting. However, the SNP could win 4 seats with tactical voting. But possibly not if voters switch to Green.

      Then again, maybe Trinity Mirror have developed a passion for the environment.

    184. Patrick Roden says:

      “Ah gots a big won here bawss, juss lemme keep reelin’ him in with dis. Pat me on da head bawss, pat me on da head.”

      Sounds like pretend Nationalist is doing a textual ‘blacking up’

      Racism comes natural to British Nationalists so his reluctance certainly isn’t as a Scottish Nationalist, he’s clearly a reluctant BritNat.

    185. Dr Jim says:

      The Sunday Mail on the side of the Greens, if you believe this then men from Mars get to vote
      They know the Tories have lost it and Labour have lost it so it’s look for the slow people who’ll fall for this hoping to split the SNP vote so’s maybe somebody else will get a seat, anybody else, but stop the SNP from getting more

      Oh the pain Sunday Mail, the pain

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ve been posting on UKDJ for a couple of years. And presumably now there’s not one single posting of mine left on the forum.

      Not to worry, I’ve always been politely restrained posting about UKDJ here, The National or on the Herald, as I was able to post directly on UKDJ.

      Now I don’t have any such etiquettical restraint.

      And that last article was total mince, political garbage, just anti-SNP for the sake of it, and attacking Salmond for no good reason at all except the blog owner is a total numptie and has mush betweeh the ears. He doesn’t like Labour either, and both of those greatly reduce his capacity for fair comment about anything to do with defence that involves Scotland, or the Labour party – or unions, like the GMB.

    187. Liz g says:

      Reluctant Nationalist @ 12.18 & 12.30
      You put those two post into context now or I’m reporting them to the Rev
      As stand alone posts they are disgusting
      You have half an hour..
      Please disengage with this clown till this gets sorted
      Sometimes it’s hard to see stuff when yer caught up in the conversation
      I’m not telling ye anything, I hope you wouldn’t tell me..

    188. Liz g says:

      It should read
      Wouldn’t hesitate to tell me

    189. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Capella @ 01:07,

      Well, quite. Shamelessly exploitative and cynical.

      Time for Stu to do another north/south side-by-side comparison article, p’rhaps…?

    190. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g and others
      This is the measure of RN:

      @ Yesindyref2

      If Stu can’t back up your shitslinging paranoia with IP address proof, don’t drop my username again when I haven’t rattled your cage. Unless you’d like a knitting needle through your tear duct.

      It should have been banned long ago.

    191. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      No problem Liz, I only respond if I see a need, but I see yesindyref2’s got a handle on him. Violence and intolerance don’t strike me as characteristics of an indy supporting personality. More like a far-right troll, tbh.

    192. Liz g says:

      Thank you… The half an hour was up!!
      So it’s now in higher hands than ours… I hope we are agreed to be leaving it, to give the Rev time to deal or not xxx

    193. defo says:

      It’s no a spoon she needs, it’s a plunger!

    194. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 2.00am
      I certainly missed that one…
      But we need to shut up about it now or it gives the Rev more work to do clearing out all the comments relating to the subject to make the thread make sense.
      He’s been reported let’s leave it there for a day or two…
      Please…. 🙂

    195. andiebean says:

      T’was last Monday, all was well until I switched on the radio and heard her voice. I cringed inwards. I convulsed. I almost wished it was Richard Leonard talking instead!

      Can we corral this woman and make her permanently pregnant?

      Poor wee bairn Finn getting fed lies from the moment he has been born!

    196. Dr Jim says:

      Good morning everyone, the sun’s shining and it’s a lovely day in Glasgow so why not don’t listen to the radio, don’t watch the TV, don’t buy a newspaper, go out get some sun and avoid Sunday propaganda day

    197. Dorothy Devine says:

      Good morrow to you Dr Jim!

      I have already been out for a pleasant birdsong concert walk. My hip and knees appear to be behaving , much to my surprised delight!

      I have no intention of reading any newspaper nor of gracing the TV with my presence – it is too beautiful a day to get angry!

    198. Ken500 says:

      Now’s the time. Now’s the chance.

      Stop the yapping and complaining. Start campaigning. Just get out there,

      Campaign. Join, donate. Do anything folk can do.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get on other person to vote too. Simple.

      Just do it. Get out there.

    199. Sinky says:

      Thought it was April Fools Day when I read that Ian Murray has joined his like-minded friends Stephen Kerr and Alastair Carmichael in calling for a Secretary of State for the Union to, amongst other things, protect the UK single market and strengthening devolution.

      Exclusively in Scotland on Sunday or SoS for the Union.

    200. Effijy says:

      Yet again the gap between the richest and average UK worker has grown dramatically.
      56 years in a row the number of UK Billionairs and Millionairs has grown.

      Labour, Tory or Lib Dem Pack Governments beat the drum for the rich and beat the hell out of the workers.

      Millions living in poverty, Food Banks having to hand out millions of meals to UK citizens to reduce cases of starvation, NHS undermanned and resourced, care for the elderly in the community at breaking point but London made the money laundering capital of the world, loopholes for the rich to hide money off shore, and Billionairs like Branson, Dyson and Ratcliffe moving abroad to stop UK tax all together.

      Obviously a nation generates a finite amount of money in any year so the greater the percentage the rich get automatically means those at the other end get less.

      Ratcliffe seems to have 18,000 Million and being in later years could afford to spend a £Million each and every day of his life and yet he wants more, he wants it tax free, he wants to reduce the income of the many.

      It’s just sick and it’s proof of UK governments through the decades being parties of the rich, for the rich, by the rich.

      Any vote for any of the Westminster parties who have created this is an endorsement for it to continue.

      Political leaders plotting to remove pensioners bus passes and free TV licenses while reducing corporation tax. Not in my name London.

      Did you see that Camel just pass through the eye of a needle?
      The rich already live in the Kingdom of heaven and leave hell for the rest.

    201. mr thms says:

      Treat the elections to the parliament of the European Union as a second referendum.

      Several SNP MEPs and a high turnout is the best outcome, as it would help Scotland to achieve a differentiated agreement with the EU during the ‘transitional arrangement’ after the PM’s Withdrawal Agreement gains the approval of the UK parliament.

    202. Footsoldier says:

      BBC Scotland still not out of bed with Sunday papers – c’mon wakey wakey!

    203. Pete says:

      Your socialism which you espouse just doesn’t work.
      People like Ratcliffe, Dyson and Branson have built world famous businesses and created huge numbers of jobs in the process. We should be encouraging them, not taxing them out of the country.
      I’d love to see more billionaires and trillionaires. They create prosperity.
      Take a trip round Grangemouth and see what Ineos has achieved. It could produce even more jobs and wealth if the SG wasn’t so hung up about fracking. We have to import gas from the US rather than produce it ourselves.
      Corbynism May sound great on paper but is a disaster in reality. Take a look at Venezuela and Cuba. Basket cases. I’ve been to Cuba and it’s not great.
      You talk about food banks but, if most of the people using them would adhere to the rules they wouldn’t get sanctioned. Not rocket science.
      Take a look at modern Scotland. The obesity is horrendous. Most folks could do with less not more food.

    204. Ian McCubbin says:

      Cool cartoon.
      Why can’t she just stay away from politics?

    205. Hamish100 says:

      Curtice on BBC again!

      The failed Lib dem candidate cannot but help run down the Scots Parliament. It would have been expected to have better turnout. It would have been expected…….. Of course anyone can say I expected.

    206. Capella says:

      Joanna Cherry hits out at ‘smear campaign’ and calls for SNP unity:

    207. gus1940 says:

      Farage on Marr AGAIN.

    208. Cactus says:

      That’s 33 times in a row that Ruth has insulted Scotland

      Have ye a cool Sunday, summer is here

      Euro campaigning has begun

    209. Ken500 says:

      Radcliffe gets money worldwide not just in Britain. Only a relatively small amount of business is done in the UK. Imported fracked gas from the US. Landed at Grangemouth. UK policy. An international. Company. Most of the business is done abroad. Worldwide. Tax evades. Supports Brexit so he can tax evade.

      The Tories are wasting £Billions in Hinkley, Point, HS2. Trident dumped in Scotland illegally and secretly. A total waste of money. The rotten contaminated hulks dumped in Scotland at Rosyth.

      The Tories have cut investment in renewables Cut tidal projects, banned onshore turbine in the rest of the UK. Stopped invest in solar, wind and wave. The cheapest, the best, non dirty or dangerous. Instead importing US fracked Gas.

      A total waste of money. Putting up the balance of payments deficit and the debt. Instead of investing in home grown renewables. CCS projects cut by £Billions. Scotland is losing out on £Billions. The EU are making investments in CCS. Scotland is losing out £Billions because of Westminster interfering appalling policies. Damaging the Scottish economy and holding it back. The Tories have cut Oil & Gas production in Scotland. Taxed at 40% since Jan 2016. Instead it is imported putting up the balance of payments deficit and the debt.

      The EU wants to stop tax evasion in the EU/world. They are taking measures to do it. The reason for Brexit. Farague and the rest of the crooks. Farague should have been put in jail long ago for fraud, embezzlement, extortion and gerrymandering.

    210. gus1940 says:

      I don’t suppos mthat The Mail On Sunday coming out in support for The Greens has anything whatsoever to do with trying to stop people voting SNP in the Euro Election.

    211. Hamish100 says:

      Oh dear the BBC advertising campaign supporting Dugdale and the Smith Trust. Don’t they survive with government money from the UK?

      Whole radio programme last week sookin up to the unionists now we have a whole segment on tv with Brewer. Looks like the stranglehold on BBC Scotland by Labour continues.

      Now we have Henry McLeish. M

    212. Breeks says:

      Ian McCubbin says:
      12 May, 2019 at 8:21 am
      Cool cartoon.
      Why can’t she just stay away from politics?

      I don’t think she’s there for the politics. She’s an Establishment mouthpiece; a necessary component for channeling our attempted indoctrination and subjugation. I don’t think that qualifies as political activity by literal definition.

      Furthermore, her primary “policy”, or rather advocacy, is arbitrarily preventing a referendum, and this is the very antithesis of democracy. I suspect that also struggles to qualify as political activity.

      Ruth Davidson is partaking in colonialism, not politics.

    213. Ken500 says:

      There is no gas to frack in Scotland. Ran out in the 1960’s onshore. There is coal in abundance in Scotland/UK. Black gold. The Tories reneged on all the CCS projects at Longannet, Fife and Peterhead Gas. After £Millions were spend to enable implementing them. Tory wasters. The EU are going ahead with CCS. Scotland is once again missing out £Billions because of Westminster unionist interfering mismanagement. The imbeciles.

      The ComDem spent £Billions building coal plants in the North of England. near Clegg’s former constituency. They gave Nissan £Billions to invest/build electric cars in the N/E of England. A bribe. Now reneged upon. Nissan pulling out and the factories closing, losing thousands of jobs because of Brexit.

      The Tories are going down big time. Farague is being promoted. Will come to nothing as usual? Just a load of nonsense. There is lack organisation. Just does not have the skills. Farague is an alcoholic Alcoholics make poor decisions without proper, total abstinence, rehab counselling. Lie, after lie, after lie. So they can drink, lie and embezzle. Not happy people but depressed. Alcohol is a depressant. Then they want depressant drugs. Bad for many people. A vicious circle of abuse. MUP helps cut down.

    214. Hamish100 says:

      Looks like McLeish wishes to neuter the Scots parliament to prevent any 1 party being in charge?
      I wonder who he is referring too?
      Too much Indyref 2 being talked about.

      Looks like McLeish is back to being a devolution person. Don’t think he ever changed.

    215. Famous15 says:

      Make no mistake.European Parliament Elections.

      Look for the SNP symbol and put one clear X in the box.

      No more,no less.

    216. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim says:
      12 May, 2019 at 7:21 am
      Good morning everyone, the sun’s shining and it’s a lovely day in Glasgow so why not don’t listen to the radio, don’t watch the TV, don’t buy a newspaper, go out get some sun and avoid Sunday propaganda day””

      Dorothy Devine says:
      12 May, 2019 at 7:30 am
      Good morrow to you Dr Jim!

      I have already been out for a pleasant birdsong concert walk. My hip and knees appear to be behaving , much to my surprised delight!

      I have no intention of reading any newspaper nor of gracing the TV with my presence – it is too beautiful a day to get angry!””

      Very good advice from both of you. Beautiful morning here too
      Time to chill, enjoy the day and leave the pot stirrers to their cooking.

    217. Ken500 says:

      Davidson is finished in Scotland. Davidson is a liar. Liars always get found out. The lying Tories are going down big time. The Tories could be finished. Politics are realigning in the UK. The homogeny is finished.

      The unionists contaminated the electoral process in Scotland with no mandate, illegally. They changed the electoral voting system. Damaging the Scottish economy. Changed FPTP to PR without authority. To let the 3rd unionists in without authority. The voters cannot get them out even though they can’t stand the sight of them. A total disgrace.

    218. Graeme McCormick says:

      Her way round the smacking ban

    219. Hamish100 says:

      BBC radio labour paper review. Clegg and others given free reign to attack the SNP Andy for that matter The National newspaper. Low circulation for the nationalists. It’s pro Independence. Clegg see everything through his Ulster Unionist eyes. BBC allows full publicity for the Sunday Mail and the Record.

      BBC allow free reign. Clegg now ensconced in Dundee, supports Marra Labour from Dundee and has news media links. Disgraceful. Worse than usual. Why now?

      They wish to undermine the SNP vote at the EU elections. Vote green. Vote to help labour through the back door.

    220. Interesting piece on Professor John Robertson’s excellent ‘Talking Up Scotland’ blog.

      He refers to an opinion poll which forecasts the complete wipe-out of the blue and red Toerags in Scotland, leaving the SNP with 55/56 MPs with the Lib-Dems on 3/4.

      I think hysteria among the London-centric parties is about to go nuclear – look out for even more SNP Terribly Baaaadddd!! headlines, and smear stories on prominent SNP figures.

      I think we are winning.

    221. galamcennalath says:

      A new political party, formed only days ago, and with one policy which is to commit social and economic hara-kiri, is leading the polls in England.

      To say politics in England is broken is a massive understatement. The population is so disenchanted, so disallusioned, that they would vote in large numbers to move from mess into utter chaos. Their antiquated FPTP system can’t cope with a many party scenario, so the Brexits might actually win a GE.

      Just think about that, Scotland. None of this is our doing, nor our wish, we should be out of it and doing our own more sensible thing.

    222. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 11 May, 2019 at 10:01 pm:

      ” … I don’t understand how you can at times be so obtuse.”

      There is an obvious answer to that but I’ll let it go at least for the moment.

      ” … History is all very well, I’m a devotee myself, but it does absolutely f-all to convince ordinary voters in the present day to move to indy.”

      Now the answer to that is quite simply that you are wrong. I really couldn’t count the number of people I have been speaking with about politics where I could literally see the lightbulb above their head flash bright when the truth of some particular current matter became clear to them. For starters how many members of the public have even heard the term, “The remembrancer”? That one starts wheels going round.

      ” … It is already as clear as daylight that come IR2 (or whatever transpires), the BritNat response will be to obfuscate and confuse, adding any possible diversions they can to distract people from the basic fact that they have absolutely nothing to offer.”

      Indeed so, Robert, that is indeed the, (cough!0, historic reaction.

      ” … Yet you would help them out by wanting to add more. Help ma boab! Give another raft of my-way-or-highway useful idiots a reason to tweet that the SNP is failing them and they are voting for some other party. I mean, just how daft can you get?”

      Says he while attempting to convince me that it must be his way, or his faction’s way and other people’s way is all wrong.

      … It’s just as well that the SNP leadership don’t pay the least bit of attention to your perverse tactics. But it does go some way to explain the reaction of to some of what they encounter online.”

      Are you for real? I’m the one who is being repeatedly accused, (wrongly), on this very blog of saying the SNP can never do anything wrong. Which, by the way, I have never done.

      I have always only said that if anyone has any doubts or complaints to take them directly to the FM, the SG. the party or the elected person directly where it has more chance of getting paid attention to than airing it on an open on-line blog where it will undoubtedly gladden the hearts of the unionists.

      Not once have I ever said they should not hold a different view or not complain. Tell me this – if ASDA sold you a defective item would you have it exchanged by complaining on a blog or by taking it back to ASDA’s wee counter for complaints in the store?

    223. geeo says:

      I see farage is booked for Andrew Marr today.

      Imagine that huh, who could have guessed !!

    224. Clydebuilt says:

      Mail on Sunday supporting the Green’s

      Unionist’s are using The Green’s as the last hope to reduce the enormous vote coming down the line for the SNP.

      Unionist supporting parties can’t damage the SNP so all that’s left is splitting the Independence vote!

    225. Lenny Hartley says:

      Gus1940, its the Sunday Mail thats supporting the greens not the Mail on Sunday, one is a batshit yoon rag and the other is a batshit yoon rag.

    226. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      I too have been to Cuba @Pete says at 8:18 am

      Castro instigated Universal Education and Healthcare on gaining power.

      The economic situation is down to over half a century of US Imperialism and punitive sanctions.

    227. Colin Alexander says:

      We already had 56 SNP MPs out of 59 .

      To avoid sounding negative, I invite anyone to tell me what that achieved in practical terms at Westminster between 2015 to 2017?

      Which votes did the “Strong voice for Scotland” win in the Commons on ANY Govt legislation?

      What legislation did the UK Govt back down on because of the SNP 56?

      I don’t know of ANY but willing to learn, if anyone could tell me.

    228. HandandShrimp says:

      Had a brief listen to the paper review on radio shortbread where David Clegg spent an inordinate amount of time desperately trying to revive the SNP civil war/bullies/smell of wee wee spin. I think he may have been reading this through medium of gerbil entrails.

      I turned the radio off. We live in difficult and pivotal times with an election looming. We deserve better.

    229. Ottomanboi says:

      The subtext of the European elections is national sovereignty.
      ‘Engxit’ is not our fight.

    230. Baldeagle58 says:


      ‘Britain’ = England

      …… at least according to the British State Broadcasters News last night.
      The news reader was doing the lead in to a report on a World Arts Competition being held in Vienna when he said that artists from throughout the world would be attending ‘including artists from ‘Britain’, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland’.
      Now consider this….
      He was reading from a script that someone at the BBC news wrote.
      Presumably, it was proof read by another staff member before being approved for broadcast, and yet nobody picked up on this, or saw anything wrong with it!…
      ‘Artists from ‘BRITAIN’, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland’.
      So, it’s as I always suspected and has now been confirmed by the British State Broadcaster itself…
      The next time you hear them talk about ‘Britain’, they really mean ‘England’.
      Britain = England and England = Britain…..

      Feel free to share. 🙂

      Bring on IndyRef2!

    231. Cactus says:

      Morning Dan, how do ye do, twas a smashing day yesterday, aye that Historywummin is quite a roaster, anyone that’s a part of the SiU is a stinky poo 😉

      How’s things going in the garden, are they stihl sawing away

      Another LOVEly sunny day in Scotland

    232. Liam says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      I have no intention of reading any newspaper nor of gracing the TV with my presence – it is too beautiful a day to get angry!

      Well said.

      What’s the point of living in the most beautiful place on the planet unless we get out and enjoy it from time to time?

    233. Jock McDonnell says:

      Farage kicking butt on Marr.

    234. Ottomanboi says:

      The sooner Britain and its variants is binned the better.
      Britons: an ancient Celtic people, all the rest is political fiction.

    235. ronnie anderson says:

      Farage giving Marr a hard time on Bbc coverage of the political situation .

    236. Iain mhor says:

      A few have mentioned MEP seats recently, so I just thought I’d ask for some enlightening words on why Scottish MEP seats are important?

      There is only 1 Member state of the EU and that is the UK, so any vetoes, negotiations, deals and legislation ad-infinitum are brokered under the aegis of the UK.
      MEP’s are elected “regional” members to the EU Parliament, whose brief is to engage in the shaping of EU legislation. The UK sends 73 “regional” MEP’s, of which only 6 represent Scotland. Collectively, the 73 represent the UK and collectively they aspire to enhance EU legislation for the UK’s benefit. Individually, they may seek some accord for their pet regional brief, but that surely is only going to meet with success, if not opposed by the remainder of the 73.

      Can anyone explain how the relationship of the 73 at the EU Parly is any different to the 700 or so MP’s at Westminster?
      In the UK Parliament it’s 650 v 70 Scottish MP’s (thereabouts) and in the EU parly it’s 67 v 6.
      Am I really to believe that Scottish MEP’s have autonomy or power to negotiate deals on behalf of Scotland? I seriously doubt it.
      The best to be hoped, is where Scotland’s input aligns with the other UK reps – or perhaps via alliances with other countries regional members, along the lines of:
      “Lets all vote for more money for our hill farmers, Scotland’s MEP’s will back you up” – “Hooray! We got that through”…”But where is your cheque monsieur l’Ecosse?” – “Och, nae worries guys, they are just signing the cheque over to the actual UK Govt, then I’m sure they’ll hand it over to Scotland any day – any day now, you’ll see…”

      If our participation at the EU Parly is really just another mirror of Westminster, surely it doesn’t matter if we send six “Indy” MEP’s to the EU Parly? They will be outgunned and outvoted and even on the few occasions the stars align, the ultimate arbiter of any deal is the UK – I dare say Scottish MEP’s may contribute some aspirational speeches, but that butters no parsnips.
      Other than using the Euro Elections as some poxy, proxy for an Indy vote it serves little purpose, much like Scottish “regional” MEP’s. Perhaps someone can change my mind.

    237. Breeks says:

      Hate to say it, but Farage is absolutely wiping the floor with Marr. If it was boxing match, the ref would be stopping it. Marr clinging to the ropes asking desperately irrelevant questions from a prepared list. Utterly rattled.

      I loathe Farage, but the BBC got its arse booted there…

    238. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says:12 May, 2019 at 10:07 am:

      ” … I don’t know of ANY but willing to learn, if anyone could tell me.”>/i>

      No one can tell you anything, Colin, After all, in your mind, you know best and everyone else is wrong.

    239. ronnie anderson says:

      Robert Peffers

      Ah the democratic HoC where every member has competed in a election in every Town & City for a seat in the democratic MOAP’s, that is of coarse with the exception of the Remembrancer his seat is reserved by the City of London . Not for him the swearing in of the oath of allegiance like the plebs representatives.

    240. jfngw says:

      The MSM and particularly the BBC have been in ‘bring down the SNP’ mode since 2015 after they thought they had killed them in 2014. The smears are now coming thick and fast.

      We should be careful about bigging up the 4 seats at the Euros, if it is only 3 the MSM will run it as a disappointing result. We should be highlighting the 3 then if we get 4 claim it as an overwhelming success.

    241. Ottomanboi says:

      @Ian mor
      The six seats may be paultry but all held by the SNP would be highly symbolic of Scotland’s unique status; a stateless state.
      Symbolism in European context is powerful. Don’t be so literal.

    242. jfngw says:


      I think it is pretty much impossible to win all six seats with the EU elections voting system. It would be like winning all the constituency and list seats at Holyrood. Four is pretty much the max, unless the other parties receive virtually no votes.

    243. geeo says:

      Coco @10.07am.

      Well, coco, they highlighted the blatant democratic deficit at WM, and how WM is against the best interests of Scotland.

      That is what they are there for, and they do a great job in that regard.

      It is a selfless task, being abused/ignored/over ruled, but they take it so Scots can see for themselves that WM and the Union does not work for Scotland.

      If Davidson/Leonard and Rennie are telling the truth, and people in Scotland (including YOU, coco, the faux independinista) really do not want an indyref, then you really have to ask, why has the SNP won 91/118 Scottish Seats at WM in the last 2 General Elections ?

      A vote for the SNP is a vote for independence, as the very reason they exist, is to facilitate an independent Scotland, which kinda blows a hole in the unionist argument of no appetite for indyref2.

      So there ye go, coco, the faux independinista/green supporter.

      Now, lets ask what the point of YOU is, here on Wings ?

      “SNP BAD” and …..thats about it huh ?

    244. jfngw says:

      Conflicting opinions I see of Farage on Marr, those on here seem to think he done well, many on twitter thinks he did badly. Never watch it as I don’t rate Marr as an interviewer.

    245. geeo says:


      Being realistic, 3 seats will be a great achievement, 4 would be in the realms of the 56/59 WM Seat result to be honest.

      6 is impossible as you say.

    246. Robert Peffers says:


      This is, at the present time. right on topic as it is the Scottish Parliament’s anniversary and here is Winnie Ewing’s full speech that RECONVENED the Scottish Parliament. It bears listening to again:-

    247. Breeks says:

      I wouldn’t necessarily rule out the Brexit Party. It’s not a pleasant notion, but neither was Coburn worming his way into Europe on a Scottish ticket at the last EU Elections courtesy of BBC manipulation and false agenda.

    248. Dan says:

      Colin Alexander says at 10:07 am

      “We already had 56 SNP MPs out of 59 .

      To avoid sounding negative, I invite anyone to tell me what that achieved in practical terms at Westminster between 2015 to 2017?

      Which votes did the “Strong voice for Scotland” win in the Commons on ANY Govt legislation?

      What legislation did the UK Govt back down on because of the SNP 56?

      I don’t know of ANY but willing to learn, if anyone could tell me.”

      The latter part of your post seems to imply that in your view 56 out of 59 MPs had little influence in Westminster.
      Therefore to return to the question in the former part of your post, in “practical terms” it’s an excellent example of highlighting the limited influence the Kingdom of Scotland’s approximate 10% share of politicians have within the UK construct. It perfectly highlights the democratic deficit of the Union.

      I notice you are pushing for folk to vote green. I could ask what significant influence have the Green Party achieved in Westminster.
      In the UK context, that is where all the significant powers are held (eg. energy) that may assist steering our society towards a more environmentally sound existence.
      It’s my view that it needs a conscious shift in our population so that as individuals we take personal responsibility and embrace better environmental choices.
      I know of university educated folk that are horrified by global the plastic pollution issue, yet they don’t have the gumption to recycle their own waste into the correct bins… Last I heard it was knocking on for £100 a tonne for my local Council to put general waste into landfill, yet those same folk will whinge about the impact of Council’s having to cut services due to a lack of funds.
      And don’t ask me about the green voters I know jetting off around the planet. Does voting green somehow capture the carbon emissions of an aircraft…

    249. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Ronnie Anderson

      FFS Ronnie, you are one of the senior and most-respected contributors to Wings.

      You should know, it only takes seconds to look it up: the City Remembrances is an employee of the City of London, who has the right to observe parliamentary proceedings from within the chamber.
      He is not an MP
      He does not have a vote
      He can influence and speak to MPs, government and opposition.
      But, he is nothing but a high-powered lobbyist, albeit with perhaps better access to the power-brokers. Stop making him out to be anything else.

      He doesn’t have a vote in parliament.

    250. Ken500 says:

      Marr and Farague are crooked liars. Fleecing the public. Appalling farce. People are starving unneccessariky because of them. A couple of low life liars. Milking the public purse.

    251. Footsoldier says:

      Henry McLeish on the Scottish Parliament “It’s in its infancy… In the stock of things, Westminster has been on that site in some form for nearly 1,000 years – we’re just on the foothills of building a new Scotland, a new parliament,……”

      I would like HM to explain the 1000 years of Westminster. Clearly he has forgotten about the 1176 years since the first Scottish King Kenneth MacAlpin and the fact that Scotland was an independent country before 1707.

    252. Dan says:

      @Cactus at 10:17 am

      Garden is braw. All 45 (symbolic Scottish number) of the tatties I planted a have come through.
      Planted out the runner beans and corjettes this morning. Last week was just too chilly to risk them getting hammered by cold rain and winds.

      It was tranquil here this morning but with it being a dry sunny day the neighbours are now firing up their engines for the start of the lawnmower grand prix!
      Think I’ll head out on my mountain bike to get away from the noise and see if I can forage some scran for munching later.

    253. galamcennalath says:


      I think the best we can hope for would be 3 SNP and 1 Green

      UKIP will collapse putting a seat back in pot. Similarly Lab certainly won’t get two seats again.

      Possibly it will come down to differential turnout. Dissenchanted Lab and Tory may not turn out. Then there’s the wildcard of the Brexit party sucking up right wing and Leave votes.

      We’ll find out soon!

    254. Iain mhor says:


      Ta, well that’s one reason I suppose, ‘ambassadors’
      Though our continued participation as mere “regional” ambassadors hasn’t apparently produced much support from other EU members, nor the EU itself. Even during this Brexit debacle, Scotland is invisible – Member State or Non-Entity, appears at first to be the EU mantra, rightly or wrongly. However, they are not backward about courting other countries on their Eastern borders, so I’m not wearing all the “We don’t comment on domestic politics” nonsense.

      Scottish MEP’s may well enjoy their ‘symbolic’ status at home and the political prisoners in Spain are really enjoying enduring their symbolism as well I’m sure. But symbolic status at the EU Parly?
      To misquote Monty Python:
      “It’s symbolic of our struggle against oppression!
      …it’s symbolic of our struggle against reality”

    255. Robert Peffers says:

      Anyone who missed the Marr show – here it is:-

    256. Republicofscotland says:

      Usual tosh from Brewer on the “Scottish” Politics show. Having a go at Ian Blackford, whilst giving Dugdale and Catherine Smith all the time in the world to discuss the John Smith thingy at UoG.

      The latter is surely the unionist/establishment talking to itself.

    257. DerekM says:

      @ Colin

      What did it do well by us sending down lots of SNP MP`s to keep the brits busy it gave us a chance to infiltrate political movements all over this island while you idiots were busy trying to discredit this site.

      Going quite well dont you think though we have to admit England has kind of got out of control we underestimated the level of political idiocy,though it is nice to see them move away from the two party voting rut.

      Funny thing is the brexit mob will soon split as well as even now the more intelligent of them are starting to call themselves English and call for indy for England and the britnat brexit clowns are attacking them lol

      I have no problem with England wanting to be independent or them leaving the EU i wish them all the best, but they have to understand these two desires are joined together and if they want these desires then the UK must end.

    258. gus1940 says:

      Lenny H

      Sorry for the slip of the keyboard – of course it was The Sunday Mail.

      On the subject of Batshit Jill she appears frequently as a talking head in documentaries on the Nazi Era.

    259. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic. A couple of headlines from newspapers in England:

      …………….The Sunday Telegraph…………………….

      “Brexit Party beats Tories in general election poll”.

      …………………..The Observer……………………..

      “Poll surge for Farage sparks panic in Tories and Labour”.


    260. schrodingers cat says:

      Footsoldier says:
      Clearly he has forgotten about the 1176 years since the first Scottish King Kenneth MacAlpin

      Kenneth MacAlpin was crowned Rex Pictorum and during his reign he was only ever refered to as king of the picts

    261. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Colin Alexander at 10.07

      It makes the exact argument for independence,you doughball.

    262. Hamish100 says:

      Colin Alexander
      I don’t know of ANY but willing to learn, if anyone could tell me.
      I don’t think you are but I will tell ye.

      You are diverting conversation from the absolute fact the in the EU election. Vote SNP

    263. Hamish100 says:

      Farage attacked Marr because he has no manifesto but didn’t like being asked about the infamous poster on immigration. The lies over the Turks invading the EU, the bus millions.

      He’s a banker in the true sense. Self centred self gloating friend of Trump and the neo cons waiting to privatise the NHS in favour of insurance companies, Climate change denier, pro no regulation on important public safety issues such as chlorinated chicken, GM modified food and the rest.

      Still his 2 boys are wise enough . They have their German/ EU passports. Remember that as you stand in a Queue at an airport or port that many brexiters have dual nationalities- Very Brit patriotic. Shysters all

    264. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Robert Peffers at 10.59
      Thanks, Robert.
      A prophetic speech by Winnie. We owe her so much. She kept the flame burning.

    265. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @Ian mhor

      The HOC is a bullring full of snorting, snarling pigs, drowning out any attempt at discusion by the SNP MPs. It’s a disgrace to democracy.

      6 SNP MEPs would only be a small part of the UK contingent of 79 MEPs and could, without doubt, be out-voted by the other “English” MEPs on a particular subject should they so wish.

      The Scots’ MEPs are there to promote the wishes of the people of Scotland, to be active on their behalf. Taking part in the EU Parliament debates as Scottish representatives of the People of Scotland.

      Behind the scenes they lobby for Scotland, inform, build contacts, look for EU financing and, very important, create trust in Scotland’s wish to stay in the EU when it votes for independence.

      We’ll fight for Europe – you fight for us.

    266. Hamish100 says:

      BBC invite you on tele to discuss Brexit. Within minutes change subject and now have this headline

    267. Petra says:

      It’s a beautiful day here too, so yes chill out, turn off the television / radio and read no newspapers except for the Sunday National. The only newspaper that supports Scottish Independence.

      Eleven days to go until the EU Election. Get out there in your droves folks and vote for the SNP.


      ‘Latest poll predicts SNP up 18 and complete extinction of Tory and Labour MPs in Scotland.’


      You must be feeling GREAT today Welsh Sion. The beginning of the end of Labour / Westminster rule in Wales (and with the latter in Scotland).

      And when Leonard, et al, complain about the SNP here in Scotland refer them to the Labour party’s record in Wales:- ”Wales remains the poorest country in Western Europe.”

      And remember they, Labour, nearly achieved the same outcome here in Scotland until the SNP took over the reins, so good luck to Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Independistas. Fight to pull your country out of the Westminster mire. And I just love your flag by the way, Welsh Sion. Nearly as bonnie as the Saltire, lol.

      ‘UK: Protesters march for Welsh independence in Cardiff.’

    268. Petra says:

      Still no sign of last weeks Sunday Politics Scotland programme with Brewer / Rennie on youtube, just snippets of the show, however you can sign in here to watch the wee hypocrite and fly man (if you want to breach your chill out vow, lol).

      Rennie who states categorically that the Libdems won’t form a coalition with the Tories at Westminster, but splutters, stutters and gets angry when asked later if they’ll form a coalition with Dirty Money Davidson (could pool their dirty money).

      You can see that’s their plan to oust the SNP at the next GE (so let’s not go there), however the Libdems will need help to ”repopularise” their party in Scotland and that’s where the BBC will come in. Look out for seeing more of Rennie’s mug on the BBC over the coming months, as per last weeks FMQ’s.

    269. Robert Peffers says:

      Just to clear up the posts about, “The Remembrancer”, Wingers might like to read this:-

      Anyway here are a few odd facts – draw your own conclusions.

      The Queen cannot enter the City of London without their permission.

      Some laws passed by the United Kingdom Parliament do not apply in The City of London.

      The City of London has its own armed forces, (more ceremonial that fighting).

      The City of London has its own Police Force.

      The City of London has its own Lord Mayor and corporation.

      Finding out good information about the City of London is very, very difficult – now why would open and honest information about a 1.2 Sq Mile in London city that has kind of actual check points for entry/exit be so hard to find?

    270. Confused says:

      fracking is about the single dumbest environmental vandalism that is possible (its not just steam they pump down there)

      – arguably justifiable in the huge empty wastes of america, but not in crowded little islands – to frack while you can pump is mental (and to pump when you have wind and wave is also dubious, but for now we persist)

      fracking will collapse at some point – the fracked wells deplete more abruptly than normal ones – it needs lots of loans, hence the love of wall st – but it is predicted fracking will be the trigger for the NEXT financial collapse

      – this is why the english, i.e. the city are so keen on it – they sell debt, that is their main activity; inflate the next bubble

      ratcliffe is just a fucking weasel – hes worth 20B then still dodges taxes and whines like a bitch if he doesnt get his way

      – iscotland needs to nationalise grangemouth – or build a competitor next door to it, and give it nothing

      – the circumstances of his wealth also need some explanation, or a good story made about them; he and a group of investors get together to buy out something really fucking valuable for cents on the dollar from other people, experienced industry people, who simply did not properly value these assets

      … hmm … something smells fishy to me, its not all good luck, timing and risk-taking – the oil industry is notoriously full of astute people who know the value of everything down to the cent – anyone want to sell me the forties field for 20K and a packet of spangles?

      bransons dad gave him 100K in 1970 to start a record company … as you do – as do a lot of rich kids – most piss it up a wall, lose it at the tables, or snort it away – he actually did something with it, but again luck turned a trick for him – mike oldfield, the musician without a deal

      james dyson is like a monument to OCD – who the hell would make their lifes work redesigning the vacuum cleaner? – 700 odd prototypes he made … thats impressive, but its also pathetic, like being a level 120 wizard on warcraft

    271. Footsoldier says:

      schrodingers cat 11:53 am

      “Kenneth MacAlpin was crowned Rex Pictorum and during his reign he was only ever referred to as king of the picts.”

      Still regarded by most historians as first Scottish King:

    272. Welsh Sion says:

      Tony Blair endorses the Nats?!

      “Who to vote for if you’re on the anti-Farage side of the ledger. There are unequivocal remain parties – Liberal Democrats, Change UK, Greens, SNP and Plaid Cymru. If, because of Labour’s equivocation, you simply won’t vote Labour, then vote for them.”

    273. Pete says:

      Jockanese wind Talker
      Cuba has just introduced food rationing.
      Yes, it’s a great socialist utopia!!

    274. Robert Peffers says:

      @Socrates MacSporran says: 12 May, 2019 at 11:04 am:+

      ” … He does not have a vote
      He can influence and speak to MPs, government and opposition.”

      Aye! Socrates, neither does The Speaker of the House of Commons, (except in one very special and rare occurrence), but look at the influence the speaker has on the proceedings. For example when he only allowed one SNP MP to speak on a vital matter for Scotland while allowing the unionists to talk the matter out.

      I have pointed out other matters that show, “The City”, has other, “special”, powers. Scotland can well do without these people with special powers.

    275. Dorothy Devine says:

      Welsh Sion , kiss of death???

      I see that the ‘new’ Scottish channel fails to impress , the SNP’s fault of course.

      Isn’t it interesting that they can give viewing figures , or lack of them for the Scottish 9 but not for Misreporting Scotland or any of their political drivelling programmes.

    276. Welsh Sion says:

      Petra @ 12.38 et al

      Thank you again.

      But don’t forget – and it is very easy to do so – of the two national parties I belong to, Plaid Cymru (b. 1925) is actually older than the SNP (b.1934). Also, if you let by the exceptional bye-election in Motherwell in 1945, Plaid also obtained Westminster representation earlier too (1966 over 1967). And my argument has always been PC is older than the SNP, but the SNP is maturer … 😉

    277. mr thms says:

      # Colin Alexander @ 10:07 am says

      “To avoid sounding negative, I invite anyone to tell me what that achieved in practical terms at Westminster between 2015 to 2017?”

      A very important period.

      I imagine the tripartite (between EU/UK/Scotland) negotiations on the funding for, and the timetable for the implementation of the Smith Commission agreement were…. complex?

      It is a little known fact that the Scotland Act 2016 can also facilitate the sharing of powers between the Scottish and UK governments after Brexit.


      Many of the powers a future country would need to have in place, such as income tax and benefits will be implemented by the end of the parliament.

      Many of the devolved and reserved powers a future independent country would need to have in place before joining the EEA/EU are being returned to Scotland after Brexit, some will be shared with the UK government and I also expect reserved powers such as VAT and immigration which could not be devolved before Brexit under EU law, to now come to Holyrood.

      Was the Scotland Act designed with Brexit in mind?

      The UK government and the EU are very keen for their Withdrawal Agreement to gain the approval of the UK parliament because the ‘transitional arrangement’ will not only facilitate an orderly Brexit, it would also facilitate an orderly succession.

      Although they cannot show it, the Scottish government will be happy for WA to pass.

      Voters in Scotland now have to demonstrate their is a big majority for remaining in the EU. Their support will strengthen the SNP’s fight for the ‘differentiated arrangement’ described in Scotland’s Place in Europe

      As the UK government works its way through Article 50, remember Part 5 does says
      a ‘country’ that has left can rejoin under Article 49.

      During the Scottish referendum, a claim was made that an independent Scotland would need to rejoin the EU under Article 49.

      Another coincidence?

    278. Socrates MacSporran says:

      <i.Robert Peffers

      I take your point about influence etc in Westminster.

      The problem is, for over 300 years, the Scots we send down there have not exactly worked too-hard to augment these influences and influecers. To a certain extent, the SNP has – who will ever forget Wee Eck halting a debate with a point of order, and being absolutely skewered for it by the combined armies of Unionism.

      But,to my mind, they have been too-ready to play by their rules, instead of bending or blatantly driving a coach and horses through the stupider rules.

      For instance, I have been saying, since the EU referendum, the SNP should have been using EVEL against WEstminster, by repeatedly calling sittings of the SGC (Scottish Grand Committee) and using their inbuilt majority to pass SGC resolutions which the Unionists would then be forced to vote down.

      They have not adequately challenged Westminster practices which have the likes of Fluffy saying the Act of Union saw Scotland taken over by England.

      England never fights fair in politics – why should Scotland?

    279. Tam Fae Somewhere says:

      Dorothy Devine:

      What if the Scottish 9 viewing figures are higher than Reporting Scotland’s figures?

      They could be for all we know as the BBC never disclosed the Reporting Scotland figures.

    280. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says:12 May, 2019 at 10:48 am:

      ” … the exception of the Remembrancer his seat is reserved by the City of London . Not for him the swearing in of the oath of allegiance like the plebs representatives.”

      Aye! ronnie, as I’ve pointed out in another comment – while, “The City of London’s Man sits unelected in the HOC the Queen cannot enter the City Of London without the express permission of the City of London Lord Mayor”.

      Now it very well may be symbolic as they claim.

      What, though, does it symbolises? It is where the real power in the United Kingdom rests – and it isn’t with the electorate, the Crown, the Crown’s delegated parliament, (of England), it is with the massively rich international banking families of, “The City”, and going back for centuries.

      The Remembrancer”, sits close by The Speaker but sits symbolically higher than the speaker. They are great ones for their symbols, so they are but while Holyrood can get through many more bills in a session Westminster is pushed to pass a small handful and that includes having to get past the Lords.

    281. Mac says:

      It’s time.

      We need to go after IndyRef2 now, this is the right time, regardless of any risk. We should not fear failure. In this current political environment, it is better to try and fail, than to wait. Because it puts another ‘stake in the ground’, it tells the rest of the UK and the Globe that Scotland isn’t finished fighting for ‘hope over fear’.

      The world is watching England and Farage. Now is the time to tell the world that Scotland still wants out. It’s great publicity for the Scottish brand. Now is the time.

      England Remainers are drowning in this Brexit madness, and many will support, if not look to move to Scotland. Now is the time.

      Project fear will not be as effective as last time. People see the lies from last time, and the lies told by the Brexiters. ‘Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.’ Now is the time.

      Regardless of the IndyRef2 outcome, there is nothing to fear except missed opportunity and failure to move forward. We should not be concerned that Ref2 is a ‘last chance’. It’s not. It’s just another battle. Farage’s England will guarantee Ref3 or Ref4 as necessary.

      Yes, Nicola, you are correct. Now is the time.

    282. The Dog Philosopher says:

      Confused @ 1.06

      Just to add, I noticed that Ratcliffe has just become the new sponsor of the former SKY cycling team. Which means that when they start winning big cycling competitions Team Ineos will be beamed into our homes with much pomp and circumstance.

      There is some irony here in that the continentals already viewed SKY with some suspicion with regard to the use of chemicals.

      So it goes.

    283. Jack Murphy says:

      Welsh Sion said at 1:24 pm:

      ” Tony Blair endorses the Nats?!

      “Who to vote for if you’re on the anti-Farage side of the ledger. There are unequivocal remain parties – Liberal Democrats, Change UK, Greens, SNP and Plaid Cymru. If, because of Labour’s equivocation, you simply won’t vote Labour, then vote for them.” ”

      Followed by a Guardian link.

      Here is the Tony Blair piece Archived:

    284. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye @Pete says at 1:28 pm think that has anything to do with external interference from the US and remember Scotland has food banks while Norway has a Sovereign Wealth Fund despite our oil and gas extraction being slightly higher than theirs.

    285. ronnie anderson says:

      Socrates MacSporran

      My point in that post is that the so called MOAP (democratic lol) with the exception of the Unelected Remembracer who as RP says has a lot of influence in his appointed position by the City of London more so than any democratically elected politician .

    286. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain mhor says: 12 May, 2019 at 11:19 am:

      ” … Ta, well that’s one reason I suppose, ‘ambassadors’
      Though our continued participation as mere “regional” ambassadors hasn’t apparently produced much support from other EU members, nor the EU itself.”

      Claptrap! What do you call this:-

      and this

      As to Spain and Catalonia – The EU cannot openly speak out against, or openly act against, a member state but the EU acts by compromise, consensus and democracy. Which is why those EU states where the Catalonian leaders sought refuge, (including Scotland), did not turn extradite them to the Spanish authorities but put them through their own courts and did not find them guilty. It is also why Spain ruled that those former Catalonian leaders could stand in the Spanish Elections.

      There simply is no way that the EU will openly show outward disapproval of any member state but that doesn’t mean they do not act. Just as they show great support for Scotland and disapproval for Westminster within the EU debating chamber itself but there is no official statements made against the UK as the member State.

      Scotland has many friends in the EU and there is also loads of bullshit from the Westminster’s propaganda outlets. For heaven’s sake I posted on Wings at the time it was bullshit when Barrosso was being quoted as claiming Spain would veto any Scottish Application for EU Membership.

      In fact the Spanish Prime Minister made a public statement that Spain would not veto a Scottish application. I also pointed out at the time it was claptrap that an independent Scotland would have to join the back of the queue and also have to use the Euro.

      The reason being that there was/is no queue to join the EU. What prevented applicant states from immediate entry was/is because they did/do not meet all EU laws, rules and directives. As to having to join the Euro – a third of existing EU states have never adopted the Euro.

      The unionist liars will tell you any lie and you won’t see or hear any other story in the MSM or UK Broadcasters.

    287. HandandShrimp says:

      It is a measure of how much Blair despises Farage that he will endorse all the pro remain parties including the SNP. Weir’s head must have exploded.

    288. Capella says:

      @ Petra 1.28 – I’m old enough to remember the Cuban Revolution and watched, on our primitive black an white TV, Fidel Castro defeating the American stooge Batista, who fled to Florida with his gangsters where they continued to fight to overthrow the republic, aided and abetted by the CIA, of course. They have struggled to restore their casinos and strip clubs ever since.

      Cuba today has survived 50 years of American blockades and sanctions. America still retains a base in Cuba. It’s called Guantanamo Bay.

      So when American presidents sneer at all those shithole countries like Cuba, Venezuela, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Palestine, Lebanon,… remember how they became shithole countries and who is responsible. Cuba, like Scotland, may well have foodbanks. But the prepetrators live in luxury apartments in New York and Washington and London.

      Just wanted to make that clear.

    289. ronnie anderson says:

      Socrates MacSporran The Remembracer can stop any debate whereby its against the interests of the City of London that said , most people are of the opinion that ( other than staff ) are elected to the chamber , thats a eye opener when out campaigning.

    290. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m going to claim a bit of credit for having started this, as I did it in The National before anyone else that I could see, having noticed people saying they wouldn’t leaflet, vote or campaign because of stupid Alyn Smith and his “SNP war on cybernats”.

      Pretty sure *every* constituency in Scotland owes @MargaretFerrier for her help in some by-election shenanigan or other. We certainly benefited from her down in Leith. We all need to be out campaigning for every vote in the EU elections to return the favour and win that 4th seat!

      For anyone still with a grudge against the terrible trio, forget it, think of Margaret Ferrier. It’s not selfish Smith who suffers, he’s home and dry anyway as first on the list. It’s Margaret Ferrier who would suffer, a hard worker who *was on the AUOB march*.

      Vote SNP in the EU elections even if you hate the party, loathe them, detest them, can’t stand the ground they walk on, think Sturgeon is the pudding of the chieftain race.

      My postal vote is going off tomorrow. One X against the SNP.

    291. Republicofscotland says:

      @Pete 1.28pm.

      The most rampant capitalist country the USA, has millions of people in poverty who cannot afford medication or health insurance.

      Lets not forget the plethora of folk living in Obamavilles, now called Trumpvilles. Socialism might not have all the answers, however I recall Michael Moore take a dozen or so sick Americans to Cuba in one of his documentaries.

      Where they received free medication from the Cuban health service, that they couldn’t afford to buy back home in the States. Some of them felt so humbled by the experience they cried.

      Cuba might not be a utopian society, but their healthcare system puts people before profit unlike the USA.

    292. CameronB Brodie says:

      I would imagine any economy would struggle to provide for social needs, if the US of A was ditermined to destroy said economy. No?

    293. Moonlight says:

      I cannot make any definitive statement about whether or not Scotland has support in the EU at National level.
      But I can say that I have recently spoken with both German and Spanish people. They are clearly well informed about Scotland’s position re the EU and are overwhelmingly supportive of our desire to remain, they expect that Scotland will be independent and welcome in the EU in the very near future. The Spanish are keen to point out the diferences between Scotland and Catalonia and seem to know the historical background.
      It is the English people in these discussions who say we can’t define our own future, must do as we are told because it was a “National” vote. When asked to expand it seems to be about “reasons”??
      So, it may be that the various governments and establishments can say nothing, but I think that if their populations have a view it will be reflected up the line.

    294. Iain mhor says:

      @Graf Midgehunter

      Ta, for the input – so pretty much a sinecure as ‘ambassadors’ for a couple of decades then, which is fair enough.
      But other than a couple of seats being abolished (I believe there were originally 8 for Scotland) it’s pretty much same old, same old. Same faces, same party share – a couple of Tories, a couple of Labour and a couple of SNP (give or take the odd Liberal and for some reason Scotland currently has a UKIP MEP) I’m just wondering why, after two decades, it’s suddenly important to try and return 6 SNP MEP’s, where it was never a big issue previously.

      Certainly I don’t remember any great campaigning on the MEP front, not from the SNP and not from the wider YES movement. If there was any ‘campaign’ I don’t recollect it having any particular association with “Indpendence” for Scotland. It appeared only to ever be a an election to pass a couple of nondescript civil servants to the Euro Parly.
      Had it been important for the Independence movement then surely we would have managed a campaign and at least one more MEP and for them to have a much higher profile. Until Alyn Smith’s trending speech, who knew who he was? Betcha most couldn’t say who Scotland’s other SNP MEP is, far less the other Scottish Unionist MEP’s.

      If, after two decades, Scottish MEP’s are now to somehow be invested with a far higher profile and integral to the campaign for Independence, then certainly.that is an interesting development.
      Why now though, what are they going to be doing differently now? What is their new ‘role’ and is this not a bit late in the game? Suddenly it’s important when the positions are all abolished (pretty much) …ahh I think I may have answered my own question. It’s suddenly important because they’re out of a job this year?

      Yeah Ok I’ll vote, because the Unionists are going to market it as poxy proxy, but not because I think it’ll help achieve Indy.

    295. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 12 May, 2019 at 1:23 pm:

      ” … “Kenneth MacAlpin was crowned Rex Pictorum and during his reign he was only ever referred to as king of the picts.”
      Still regarded by most historians as first Scottish King:

      Wee bit of common sense on that score. The name, “Picts”, was a generic name coined by the Romans for the many tribes in that area we now call Scotland. What the called themselves no one has the slightest idea for, “The Picts”, had no known written language.

      Far as we know the Picts were the aboriginal, (small ‘a’), north Britons, but were really all the one race of people who had a tribal, (clan), system.

      The Scotii were one of those tribes. The latest on them is that Scotii artefacts from digs on inaccessible Scottish Islands and sea stacks predate those from Ireland and that signifies that the Scotii were actually not really from Ireland as once thought.

      More than likely they were tribes that mainly inhabited the areas all around what we now call The Irish Sea. As the land at that time was, “The Great Caledonian Forest it makes sense that the people would be seafaring as that was easier and faster than hacking their way through impenetrable forests. The seas and rivers were the superhighways of their day. So the Scots weren’t from Ireland but both Scots and Irish were Pictish tribes around the Irish sea shores.

      Until the advent of the Vikings and Norsemen the Picts would thus have been the Original North Britons but whatever they were they were they became the inhabitants of what became Scotland. So King Kenneth was indeed the King of Scotland.

      As the national bard of some foreign country once wrote, “What’s in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet”. Y’know, some of those foreign gadgies weren’t all too bad.

    296. yesindyref2 says:

      @Iain mhor
      The way I see it is that it might not help to achieve Indy, but it wouldn’t do any harm. But if 6 pro-EU MEPs could be achieved, it reinforces that Scotland wants to stay in the EU, the 62% Remain vote, and gives 6 MEPs to use influence WITHIN parties such as the Verts/ALE – Group of the Greens/European Free Alliance – to which the 2 SNP MEPs belonged, and who had their conference in Glasgow to show solidarity last year I think.

      And perhaps some influence with the S&D – Group of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats in the EP – of which David Martin was a member, and even ALDE – Group of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe if a LibDem is elected.

      Every little helps, and perhaps it would make it more likely to achieve some sort of transition for an Indy Ref vote while Scotland applies formally in our own right.

      But yes, it might be a meaningless gesture. Shrug! It’s only an X.

    297. Petra says:

      @ Jack Murphy at 2:03pm (and Welsh Sion) ……. “Tony Blair and EU Election voting.”

      Isn’t it just amazing, ironic, that Bliar who should be behind bars for the part that he played in decimating Iraq, leading to the formation of Daesh, the refugee crisis and ultimately the EURef Brexit decision, in the main, is now advising everyone as to what to do next? He in fact has encouraged the rise in support for Farage along with the BBC and those pulling the strings from behind the scenes. Many activists, prior to IndyRef1, tried pointing out online, and elsewhere, that we could end up with someone far worse than a Tory leader calling the UK (Scotland) shots, such as Farage, and it now looks as though our dreaded prediction could come true. If ever there was an example, another one, as to why we have to get out of this sinister Unionist madhouse, this must be it.


      @ Welsh Sion at 1:38pm …. “Plaid Cymru.”

      Thanks for the info WS. I’m embarrassed to say that I don’t know too much about the party, historically, at all. I’ll rectify that, of course, when I get a little more time.

    298. Petra says:

      @ Capella at 2:34pm ….. “Cuba.”

      I think that you’ve got me mixed up with “Pete”, lol, Capella and yes I agree with every word in your post.

    299. Clootie says:

      The old arguement from 2014 still holds true ” if all YES supporters work to win over ONE person to Independence we will win”.

      Keep working on those family members, work mates, etc

    300. Petra says:

      Vote for the SNP in the forthcoming EU Election by remembering what the party has done / continues to do for Scotland and that includes SNP politicians such as Alyn Smith and Angus Robertson who have unselfishly worked their backsides off unstintingly, over many years, for us all: our Independence cause. Angus Robertson also additionally supporting Independence for Wales now.

    301. Republicofscotland says:

      Robert peffers @3.24pm.

      Sorry to interrupt Robert, looking on a few sites,McAlpin is traditionally known as the first king of Scotland, even though he may not have had the whole of Scotland under his reign.

      Its a similar situation to that of Aethelstan, who is generally thought to be the first king of England.Æthelstan

    302. Capella says:

      @ Petra – sincere apologies – you’re right, it was Pete who posted some nonsense about Cuba. I did think it out of character for you. So glad you put me right on that.

      I won’t bother posting it all again as it would probably be a waste of time. Pete doesn’t strike me as the kind of person for whom facts are of much interest.

    303. Scotspatriot says:

      Really enjoyed reading this thread today. Some wonderful contributions on here . Cheers !!

    304. Footsoldier says:

      Robert Peffers: I did not say Kenneth MacAlpin was referred to as King of the Picts, that was Schrodinger’s Cat. I said Kenneth MacAlpin was generally recognised as the first King of Scots by most historians.

      It was all in the context of Henry McLeish babbling on about 1000 years of Westminster as if Scotland had not hitherto existed before devolution.

    305. Pete says:

      Yes you’re right.
      The countries you mention are shitholes.
      However, like most socialists you live in the past and find reasons why places are shitholes rather than finding solutions like ‘mixed economies’ where capitalism is encouraged.
      You know, people like me and I know plenty more might well be attracted to independence if there weren’t so many devotees spouting socialist and ‘progressive’ dogma.
      To be fair to AS, although he comes over as a bit sleazy, he always struck me as being friendly to business and wealth creators unlike the present FM.

    306. Sarah says:

      O/T Have I missed the Rev’s fundraiser? I keep seeing people refer to it on his Twitter but I haven’t seen a fundraiser opened.

    307. CameronB Brodie says:

      Henry McLeish is famous for his skill of sitting on fences. He is a small “c” conservative and “emotional” British nationalist i.e. he is motivated by fear. I don’t think he identifies as being British though, unlike Prof. Hassan. 😉

      Exceptions That Prove the Rule—Using a Theory of Motivated Social
      Cognition to Account for Ideological Incongruities and Political Anomalies: Reply to Greenberg and Jonas (2003)

      A meta-analysis by J. T. Jost, J. Glaser, A. W. Kruglanski, and F. J. Sulloway (2003) concluded that political conservatism is partially motivated by the management of uncertainty and threat. In this reply to J. Greenberg and E. Jonas (2003), conceptual issues are clarified, numerous political anomalies are explained, and alleged counterexamples are incorporated with a dynamic model that takes into accountdifferences between “young” and “old” movements.

      Studies directly pitting the rigidity-of-the-right hypothesis against the ideological extremity hypothesis demonstrate strong support for the former. Medium to large effect sizes describe relations between political conservatism and dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity; lack of openness to experience; uncertainty avoidance; personal needs for order, structure, and closure; fear of death; and system threat.

    308. Capella says:

      @ Pete – Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Palestine, Venezuela, Brazil, are all current. Iran, China and Russia are in the future. Any country endowed with rich natural resources (like Scotland) will attract the baleful attention of the oligarchs.

      “He who forgets the lessons of history is doomed to repeat it.”

      I fear you have a perpendicular learning curve ahead of you.

    309. Robert Peffers says:

      @Socrates MacSporran says: 12 May, 2019 at 1:42 pm:

      ” … The problem is, for over 300 years, the Scots we send down there have not exactly worked too-hard to augment these influences and influecers.”

      Let me put it this way, Socrates. That problem you speak of is actually a whole lot of problems that begin with there not being a written constitution that a Scots MP can call out, “Point of Order Mr Speaker”, and hope to get other than told, “Sit down, that is not a point of order”. How does an MP then contest anything? Any attempt sees a call for the Sergeant of Arms, to escort The Honourable member from the chamber. They make things up to suit themselves.

      … To a certain extent, the SNP has – who will ever forget Wee Eck halting a debate with a point of order, and being absolutely skewered for it by the combined armies of Unionism.”

      Exactly my point. However, Just what did that actually achieve?

      Answer is nothing whatsoever.

      I believe though, that what Eck achieved by going by the book when he skewered William Waldegrave over claims Scotland was subsidised were mince was potentially far more effective but was then sabotaged by the SMSM and the rest of the Westminster propaganda machine.

      Allow me to point you to a report of the incident that very few Scots have ever heard about. Here is a reference:-

      So the myth that Scotland was subsidised by England was, according to the reports of the time exploded, “Once and for all”. Better still it showed Scotland subsidised England and the rest of the UK yet even today there will be claims that Scots are subsidy junkies.

      Now I can forgive Englanders not knowing the real score but in spite of guys like me periodically telling the truth to Scots the whole thing might not ever have happened.

      Now do you see why the SNP finds it totally unproductive making unproductive useless gestures like their more recent mass walkout from the Commons chamber?

      If a genuine, and brilliant, piece of parliamentary wizardly by Alex Salmond can be completely buried and forgotten all over the United Kingdom and particularly throughout Scotland, what is the point of empty gesture politics?

      ” … the SNP should have been using EVEL against WEstminster, by repeatedly calling sittings of the SGC (Scottish Grand Committee) and using their inbuilt majority to pass SGC resolutions which the Unionists would then be forced to vote down.”

      You jest – of course?

      For heaven’s sake Fluffy made this statement and later admitted it before the TV cameras on Scottish National TV and it hardly raised a tiny ripple across the sea of despondency that is Scotland’s electorate.

      They will happily march as AUOB to show support for someone else to do something but where other countries would be marching upon Westminster with pitchforks at the ready your average Scot has forgotten the insult immediately.

      Here is what Fluffy claimed:-

      “The Treaty of Union Extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom”. Here he is on TV admitting it on camera:-

      What does it take to get them to march and protest at something like those two examples I quotes above?

      One irrefutably exploded the Englander claims that England subsidises Scotland and the other claims Scotland is just part of England and that it says so in the Treaty of Union.

      Both can be very easily proven to be insulting lies and yet activists knock doors, get faced by such pish and cannot show the claimer they are talking pish and you think the elected representatives should put themselves in the firing line – for what exactly?

      Just two examples from over the years and I’ll tell you something else – how many times have I got it in the neck here on Wings for doing no more than telling it like it really is?

      How many days go by without someone claiming the SNP are not doing their job right but how many of those claimants have supported the party when things, and there have been many, like those two examples I have just quoted occur?

    310. Undeadshuan says:

      Papers saying Farage on track to beat other parties, maybe even at Westminster.

      His policies apart from no deal are privatising the NHS, payback his US backers perhaps?

      Looser gun laws and more racism, UK will become the 4th Reich if he ever gets into no 10.

    311. Republicofscotland says:

      Pete @4.21pm.

      Sorry to burst your bubble Pete, but most countries are now a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Cuba for instance was for awhile back there before it backed Maduro in Venezula opening up to the USA market once more.

      Iran was also a open society to capitalism until US intervention in 1953. The likes of Syria and Libya did and still to an extent (post US sanctions) do business with Russian/Iranian firms.

      No one could class China as a socialist country now, where capitalism is now a driving force, so much so that the Chinese government frowns at capital (personal) leaving the country.

      Socialism, with the right mixture of capitalism, can be a force for good.

    312. Legerwood says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      12 May, 2019 at 2:41 pm
      “”I’m going to claim a bit of credit for having started this, as I did it in The National before anyone else that I could see, having noticed people saying they wouldn’t leaflet, vote or campaign because of stupid Alyn Smith and his “SNP war on cybernats”.””
      No where in the article published in the Sunday Herald a week ago did Angus Robertson, Stewart MacDonal or Alyn Smith say, infer or imply that the SNP was declaring ‘war on cybernats’. The headline was all the work of the Sunday Herald and bore no relation to the content of the articles and most especially the quoted comments of Messrs Robertson, MacDonald and Smith.

      The headline was designed to provoke a response, to show dissension and it succeeded. The Sunday Herald played people and got them dancing to the Sunday Herald’s tune. Not just the membership but bloggers, columnists and elected representatives took off after the hare set coursing by the paper.

      In the article Mr Robertson and Mr MacDonald used phrases such as ‘small minority’, ‘fringe groups’ and ‘small but unrepresentative groups of people’ and made clear these small minorities were not representative of the Yes movement as a whole. They also made clear that the Unionist side had similar abusive Unionist Ultras. No where in the article did they tar the entire Yes movement with the same brush as some have claimed quite the opposite.

      Mr Smith’s main contribution in a sidebar to the main article warned of ‘false flags’ and overall was similar in tone and content to one of Mr Murray’s posts a day or so ago.
      It is also worth pointing out that Mr Robertson had made remarks along similar lines directly to SNP members at a fringe meeting at the SNP’s Spring Conference and this was reported in the Herald -see link- in an article that garnered 37 comments.

      And many of the points they raised have been raised on the threads on WoS – dont be abusive, false flags etc – on an almost daily basis

      The Sunday Herald does not support independence something people should remember when they see inflammatory headlines that are not supported by the content of the article.

      In short people you were played and in a classic response to that realisation rather than admit it you keep the pot boiling in an effort to justify the initial knee jerk reaction.

    313. Iain mhor says:

      @Yesindyref2 3:31pm

      Thanks for that.
      The Netherlands with 26 and Belgium with 21 MEP’s are smaller Nations than Scotland. I wonder how many MEP’s we envision for Scotland as an Independent Member State?
      Norway (not an EU member state) has around 16 delegates to represent them via EEA/EFTA so Scotland is pretty much a provincial backwater region within the EU under the aegis of the UK. But we know this.
      I have possibly made it to read that I consider our MEP’s ‘pointless’ which is not really my intention, I’m sure they do work on Scotlands behalf – it was more to do with why we never pushed for a full house of ‘Indy’ MEP’s in the past.

      Even at that, MEP’s are not neccessarily a requirement to send delegates to the EU. Any country may do that, even if not a member, or associate member, diplomatic ‘ambassadorial emmisaries’ and lobbyists do so all the time – in greater numbers and with more clout than Scotland’s 6 (or is it 2..) Perhaps Scotland is disbarred from ‘3rd party’ delegations as we are coffined within the UK regional representation?
      Or maybe there always has been independent Scottish delegations seperate from our MEP’s lobbying at the EU I am ignorant of. I recall the clandestine group agitating for Scottish devolution. There is Scotland Europa group (even CoSLA) there is the (I think) European Economic & Social Committee and probably a few other psuedo, quango type Scottish groups I’d need to look up. Collectively their delegate numbers dwarf 6 MEP’s I’m sure.
      Anyway, pointless or not, as these elections may be, I’ll still put a x in the box as ever.

    314. geeo says:

      1st it was splitters, telling folk to ‘vote green’ in the EU elections (anything except SNP as per unionist agendas).

      Now it seems we have ‘expectation failure’ where folk are promoting this idea that SNP MEP’s will/should win ALL 6 Seats on the 23rd May.

      Then, lo and behold, anything less (probably 3, POSSIBLY 4) will be deemed as ‘failure’ by the SNP.

      In the real world, it is really difficult to win even 3 seats at this election in Scotland.

      So for the starting expectation to be, or even hope to be, 6 seats, is frankly, for the birds.

      3 seats from 6 will be a great result, 4 will be a phenomenal result.

      There are no expectations from the party to win 6 seats, nor even 5.

      3 seats is where expectations sit, with an eye on a fourth, if the stars align on the day.

      That was certainly the view of my SNP MP, Martyn Day.

      Quietly confident of 3, dreaming of 4.

      5 and 6 – no chance.

    315. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 12 May, 2019 at 4:16 pm:
      ” … Robert Peffers: I did not say Kenneth MacAlpin was referred to as King of the Picts, that was Schrodinger’s Cat. “

      Sorry if you thought I was critical of your post, Footsoldier.

      It wasn’t – it was by way of a general bit of information on the thread. The thing about history is that archaeology is finding out things that were not possible not so long ago. It used to be just folks grubbing around in the soil and coming to, (often wrong), conclusions. It has become very much more scientific and sophisticated these days.

      Even stuff dug up long ago is being found stored for many years in museum cupboards and storage cellars and re-evaluated with modern scientific instruments.

    316. Sarah says:

      Wings fundraiser opens tomorrow!!

    317. Legerwood says:

      Sorry forgot the link in my post @ 5.26 PM

    318. Colin Alexander says:


      You’re a swine so you are: for making me feel guilty regarding Margaret Ferrier.

      And I believe it’s been mentioned previously that Sandra White SNP MSP spoke at the AUOB Glasgow Green rally.

      As I’ve said before on Wings, Sandra White is an SNP MSP I’ve always respected. No airs and graces. No “us and them” with her. A genuine person, not a political carpetbagger.

      I’m still cheesed off with Alyn Smith. Now I am in a dilemma.

      I’m away to find a coin.

      Heads SNP. Tails Green.

    319. yesindyref2 says:

      You’re flogging a dead horse, and here’s why. All three of the turgid trio endorsed the Sunday Herald article with its headline “SNP declares war on cybernats” with a link to it, and an inclusion of it INCLUDING ITS HEADLINE:

      None of the three mentioned the march, not once, not at all.

      There’s no point in you or others constantly defending it and trying to make out it’s our fault for having been caught, personally the SH article itself and its headline left me cold (i.e. I couldn’t care less, could give a stuff. not a monkey’s etc etc, get my drift?).

      What got me and the others was that the stupid trio of total contemptuous dunderheids RETWEETED IT and thereby endorsed it and its headline, don’t you get it Legerwood? Don’t you understand?

      So either they knew fine what the headline of the article was that they were asking for a retweet or #buyapaper, or they’re illiterate and thick as mince.

    320. Colin Alexander says:


      It landed heads.

      Okay, I’ll try no to think of Alyn Smith: I’ll vote SNP.

      Congratulations on changing my mind ( you and a 10p coin).

    321. yesindyref2 says:

      @Iain mhor
      iScotland should have 13 MEPs. By population:

      Ireland 4,838,300 (11)
      Scotland 5,425,000 very close to
      Slovakia 5,443,100 (13).

      Yes, some of us will hold our noses, ignore the 3 SNP politicians who showed contempt for us by RTing the Herald, ignore the knee-jerk defenders of anything and everything SNP even if they crapped in our letter-boxes they’d defend it claiming it wasn’t crap it was, errr, something, manure maybe, ignore them, and do what’s right, or what we think is right.

      The knee-jerk SNP defenders really don’t seem to get the point. Vote SNP to elect Margaret Ferrier even if you’re really really pissed off with Alyn Smith as many still are – and Angus Robertson, and that other guy.

    322. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain mhor says:12 May, 2019 at 3:14 pm:

      ” … I don’t recollect it having any particular association with “Indpendence” for Scotland. It appeared only to ever be a an election to pass a couple of nondescript civil servants to the Euro Parly.”


      It has always been of importance to Scottish independence, Iain Mhor.

      BTW, we don’t send Civil Servant to the European Parliament – we send MEP’s. The European Parliament has it’s own, paid, civil service. It is called the European Commission and they are, “Commissioned”, i.e. paid workers who have absolutely no decision making powers. They carry out the day to day running of the EU, and offer advice and do research for the MEPs.

      So if they are EC they are not elected to the EU they are employed by the EU.

      ” … Until Alyn Smith’s trending speech, who knew who he was?”

      Well not you, obviously/ Matter of fact I, several times, posted links to Alyn’s updates here on Wings.

      Sometimes I despair when I read Wings.

    323. CameronB Brodie says:

      Surely Alyn Smith, Angus Robertson, and that other guy have no bearing on whether folk support self-government for Scotland? They may piss folk off but they are a blink of an eye in the history of a nation. As with any society that has their right-wing under the control of law and order, Scotland’s trajectory is to progress, regardless of circumstances. Isn’t that right, Scottish Law Society?

    324. Robert Peffers says:

      @Republicofscotland says: 12 May, 2019 at 4:00 pm:

      ” … McAlpin is traditionally known as the first king of Scotland, even though he may not have had the whole of Scotland under his reign.”

      Well there is a wee problem that we tend to not twig when we are talking Scottish History. Where were the borders of Scotland at the particular time we are thinking about at any particular time in history?

      Scotland’s border with England was sometimes as far south as Teeside and I suppose this was true in other airts and pairts.

      Remember that Strathclyde was once a lot bigger than the current Strathclyde and under different rule. So I suppose King Ken probably did rule what was all of Scotland in his day.

    325. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Scottish Law Society
      As I suggested, any society that has their right-wing under the control of law and order, tends to progress ‘progressively’. I hope your members who have yet to chose where their loyalty rests, will keep this thought in mind when considering their moral foundations. I assume that is what their deliberation will consist of, anyway.

      Self-Determination and Secession Under International Law: The Cases of Kurdistan and Catalonia


      Under international law, minority groups that qualify as “peoples” have the right to self-determination: the ability to freely determine their political fate and form a representative government.[4] The principle of self-determination can be traced back to the end of World War I, when the losing powers, Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire, were stripped of their colonies and when several new states were created out of the territory of these former empires.[5]

      Using this newly-articulated principle, in 1920, the Swedish-speaking people of the Aaland Islands, an archipelago of about 300 small islands that had been incorporated into the recently-created state of Finland, insisted on holding a plebiscite in order to express their will as to whether they wished to separate from Finland in order to unite with Sweden. The Aalanders’ claim was ultimately resolved by a committee of jurists within the League of Nations, which determined that the Aalanders did not have a right to separate from Finland because “[t]he separation of a minority from the State of which it forms a part . . . can only be considered as an altogether exceptional solution, a last resort when the State lacks either the will or the power to enact and apply just and effective guarantees.”[6]

      The theory of self-determination, as justifying the secession of a people from its existing mother state as a matter of last resort only, in situations where the people is oppressed or where the mother state’s government does not legitimately represent the people’s interests, has remained constant throughout the 20th century development of international law. Two United Nations’ declarations, in addition to the United Nations Charter itself, have addressed the issue of self-determination—the 1960 Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and the 1970 Friendly Relations Declaration.[7]

      Both declarations, however, envisioned self-determination leading to secession as a matter of last resort only within the decolonization paradigm: here, both conditions for a right to self-determination were met insofar as colonized peoples were oppressed and their colonial governments did not adequately represent their interests. Both declarations also confirmed the importance of the principle of territorial integrity of existing states, [8] and thus embraced the idea that self-determination could lead to the territorial disruption of existing states only in extreme instances of oppression or colonization.

      It may be argued that international law subsequently developed to embrace the principle of self-determination in a binary form, as entailing rights to internal or external self-determination depending on the circumstances. Peoples who do not fall into the category of colonized or oppressed groups may exercise their right to self-determination through internal means, such as free association and autonomy. Peoples who are oppressed or colonized, however, have the right to external self-determination, which they may exercise through secession from their mother state.[9]

      This view of self-determination was confirmed in 1998, in the Canadian Supreme Court opinion regarding the proposed secession of Quebec from Canada, where the Court held that all peoples are entitled to various modes of internal self-determination, but that only some peoples, such as those subjected to conquest, colonization, and perhaps oppression, may acquire the right to external self-determination through remedial secession.[10] Today, it may be concluded that international law bestows on all peoples the right to self-determination, but that the right to external self-determination, exercised through remedial secession, only applies in extreme circumstances, to colonized and severely persecuted peoples.

    326. Effijy says:

      STV doing their bit with SNP Bad Story, SNP Bad Story and SNP Bad Story.

      Ian Blackford saying that parliamentary standards body will look at any allegations against SNP Members, it isn’t his place is positioned as he doesn’t care and doesn’t want to know.

      The Parliamentary Standards body has a look at Liar Carmichael slandering our First Minister, spreading lies across the media, denied he was involved in the lies, and then sat and watched £1
      Million being wasted on a public Inquiry.

      They found that he had done no wrong?

      Keep your MPs job that you acquired by deception
      No suspension, no fine, no imprisonment as it was all in he good cause of keeping Scotland’s resources in Westminster’s pocket.

      No doubt the Standards Committee will pass the death sentence on Joanna Cherry is they discover she asked someone to empty the bin.

    327. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. I think having one’s legal personality enforceable amended by a government which you have no influence over, is a state worthy of self-determination.

    328. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Prime-minister is abusing constitutional law in order to strip Scotland’s nationals of our legal EU personality. That is serious, authoritarian, shit.

      Anne Peters, Beyond Human Rights: The Legal Status of the Individual in International Law

    329. CameronB Brodie says:

      I mean seriously authoritarian shit. That’s how useless the un-written British constitution is. It is nothing more than a charter for English despots, apparently.

      The Legal Protection of Personality Rights
      Chinese and European Perspectives

    330. Petra says:

      Great post Legerwood (5:26pm) and it just makes me wonder how many people actually read the Herald article or conversely how many people have actually been influenced by the “cherrypickers” on line. On sites like this in fact.

      And then I read on and find a post describing three highly intelligent key SNP politicians as being “contemptuous dunderheids”, that are “illiterate and thick as mince.” Three SNP politicians who have worked their socks off for us, for years now, seeing their past history of hard work on our behalf being wiped out overnight, by certain individuals who sit on their arkie doing nought to help us achieve our dream. Yes others complained about them too but have now moved on and are promoting the SNP once again, but not the “pot stirrer” it would seem. Keeping it all going until another SNP politician is picked up by their radar.

      You wouldn’t even find the most fervent of Unionist supporting journalists describing these politicians like that, just as others too have been discredited too over time, and yet in the midst of trying to do well in the forthcoming EU Election and in the subsequent IndyRef2 a supporter of Independence continues to go on and on undermining our chances of achieving both.

      Bottom line is this:-

      Our only means of getting our Independence = supporting the SNP at least until such time as we achieve our objective.

      The main way of losing IndyRef2 = Individuals constantly dissing Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP.

      It’s not rocket science.


      Angus Robertson:-

    331. yesindyref2 says:

      Jesus wept, are people really that thick?

      1). If you think the SNP can do nothing wrong, vote SNP.
      2), If you think the trio did something wrong but forgive them, vote SNP.
      3). If you think the trio are compelte and utter arseholes, two of them are not up for election and the other is home and dry, so VOTE SNP.

      And what are some people arguing about? Whether or not the Herald article is blah blah blah.


    332. schrodingers cat says:

      The name, “Picts”, was a generic name coined by the Romans for the many tribes in that area we now call Scotland. What the called themselves no one has the slightest idea for, “The Picts”, had no known written language.


      in 1606, james 6th, looked for a name for his new united kingdom, the kingdom of england and the kingdom of scots, he dug out the history books and chose the roman name Britannia.

      question, what did the scots and the english call themselves before they became britons?

      the same can be said for the formation of pictland, from a plethora of tribal kingdoms, eg fife, fortrenn, fidach, fotla, ce, circinn, cat and cruithne. I would add caledonia, mannan, lennox and miathi to this list.

      the point being robert, what did the people of fife call themselves before the became part of the kingdom of the picts,

      simples, they called themselves fifers. when the rulers looked back in history, just like james the 6th, for a name for their newly created and amalgamateded tribal lands, they chose a latin name….. Pictland

      btw, it is often said that the scots called the picts Cruithne but recent work by and Prof Frazer (From Caledonia to Pictland: Scotland to 795) and Prof Woolf (From-Pictland-to-Alba-Scotland-789-1070) Show quite clearly that Cruithne was a term the irish used for all the tribes in pictland including the dalriadan scots.

      Cruithne is just the q celtic equivelant of Briton. so in that sense I agree with you robert. but the creation of Pictland started with MacAlpin, indeed he spent 20 years conquering fife, from clackmannan to fife ness. Within 3 generations, the macalpin dynasty united Dalriada, (argyll)fife, miathi(stirling and mentieth), caledonia (perthshire), fotla(Atholl) and angus into a single kingdom and subsequently Constantin II mac Áeda (died 952) was the 1st to be referred to as the King of Alba (roughly the dukedom of Albanie)

      Throughout this time, the kingdom of Fortrenn continued and remained successful eventually conquering all north of the mount, marr, buchan, ce (banffshire), fidach (ross, cromarty and lochaber) and perhaps even the cat (caithness and sutherland) This territory came to be know as murray(moray)

      once strathclyde and the rest of the AngloSaxon (scots/lallans) speaking lowlands were incorporated into the Kingdom of Alba, Canmore looked back in time and chose the name Scotland (land being anglosaxon word).

      I would argue, that Malcolm Canmore is the 1st scottish king

    333. yesindyref2 says:

      for the sake of Margaret Ferrier, 4th on the SNP list for the EU elections, and who was on the march and an innocent victim whether you think Angus Robertsonb and Alyn Smith’s piss is champagne as some do, or that they’re arrogant thick naive arseholes taken in by the MSM as others do. The conclusion is the same – vote SNP.

      Jings, some people are so stuck up their own backsides.

    334. CameronB Brodie says:

      Self-government is natural. It is hard to describe anyone objecting to this fact as being a “liberal”. More like a numpty.

      Protection for Rights of Personality in Scots Law: A Comparative Evaluation

      Readers are reminded that this work is protected by copyright. While they are free to use the ideas expressed in it, they may not copy, distribute or publish the work or part of it, in any form, printed, electronic or otherwise, except for reasonable quoting, clearly indicating the source. Readers are permitted to make copies, electronically or printed, for personal and classroom use.


      When the United Kingdom Parliament adopted the Human Rights Act 1998, and the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) became directly enforceable in the United Kingdom, the British government announced that it was doing no more than bringing “human rights home”.1 And although a member of the Scots judiciary notably predicted a “field day for crackpots”,2 his judicial brethren north and south of the border were on the whole more sanguine. In an address to the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) shortly after the Human Rights Act had come into force, Lord Woolf reported that the transition to a Human Rights culture had all gone “remarkably smoothly”, primarily because “the values to which the Convention gives effect are very much the same values that have been recognised by the common law for hundreds of years.”3….

    335. geeo says:

      Coco @6.09pm

      Fooling nobody, full of the proverbial brown stuff.

      You have never voted SNP/Yes in your life you utter fraud.

    336. schrodingers cat says:

      but the creation of Pictland started with MacAlpin,

      argh, for an edit function, should read Alba, not Pictland

    337. Colin Alexander says:

      You take your eye off the ba’ for a minute and others do your job for you.

      I feel I’ve been made redundant, now that Yesindyref2 and others have been criticising the SNP, but saying (for now), it’s still better to vote for them.

      There are 73 UK MEPs, even if every Scottish MEP was SNP, that’s just 6 UK UK “regional” MEPs.

      Incidentally, the SNP MEPs sit with the Group of the Greens/European Free Alliance

      “The European Free Alliance (EFA) Group in the European Parliament currently includes representatives from Scotland, Catalonia, Galicia, Wales and Latvia”.

      A certain SNP MEP, who I won’t mention, called for international observers in the EU elections, is that going to happen?

    338. call me dave says:


      I hear and obey! 🙂 Calm down I know it’s difficult.


      Colin A. = Nicola. I claim my £5 🙂

    339. thomas says:

      @ schrodingers cat

      Dont think i agree with you regarding malcolm canmore being the first scottish king.It was during the reign of constantin mac aeda , around 900ad , that the anglo saxon kingdoms to the south refer to us as scottas and scotland.

      The embryo of the kingdom of what was to become scotland was being formed in the period between 875 and 900 ad roughly , after the great army of the scandinavians crushed the picts in battle and caused the near collapse of the pictish kingdom.

      Similarly the embryo of the english kingdom is also coming together due to the depredations of the scandinavians at the same time.

      The realm and modern boundaries of both the scottish and english kingdoms wouldnt be settled for centuries yet , at one time the scottish kingdom would have its border as far south as the river ribble in the north west of england and the tees in the north east before the modern border was settled by treaty in the 13th century.

      As for the lallans anglo saxon lowlands what evidence is there for your assertion?

      There is no doubt at one point the south and south east of scotland was under the influence of northumbria , post 7th century till around late 9th start of the 10th , but by the late 10th century early 11th , there is very little evidence to suggest the survival of any amount of english speakers in scotland.

      The english language retreated from scotland at this point , and was re introduced around the 12th century as king david normanised and started feudalising scotland , and it is during this time that the power base of the scottish kings move from the north of the country to the south , and dun eadin , which beforehand was of very little importance in contemporary sources , becomes the burgh of edin and english speakers introduced into the south and east of the country.

      The old myth that scots is somehow a unbroken decent of the anglo saxon of northumbria is exactly that……a myth.

      English was re introduced into scotland in the 12th century as part of normanisation , (along with other germanic languages like flemish)and the scots dialect takes root then.

      Probably something like four centuries later before gaidhlig is being eclipsed as the lingua franca of the majority of scottish people around the 16th century.

      So prior to this most scots wouldnt have used the term scottish or scotland for our country.

    340. Breeks says:

      In the Sunday Times…

      “Fears of talent exodus over BBC Scotland slump”.

      The BBC’s new £32m Scottish channel is in turmoil with disastrous ratings and behind-the-scenes tensions threatening to alienate some of the broadcaster’s best talent, it is claimed.”

      “Talent exodus”. Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

    341. Cubby says:

      If anyone thinks Mr Alexander is an independence supporter I think they should go away, have a lie down, a wee sleep and plug their brain in when they awake.

      I can only hope that the prick Pete is not an independence supporter.

      Whether you are a thick git like yesindyref2 said or a very intelligent nice person vote SNP. It really is that simple.

    342. yesindyref2 says:

      Whether you are a thick git like yesindyref2

      That too Cubby, that too &#128526:

      Absolutely c-c-c-ccaa-lm.

    343. yesindyref2 says:

      😎 semi-colon not colon

      oh well

    344. twathater says:

      Not to stick up for Cubby , yesindyref 2 there was also a said at the bit you are quoting , so it wasn’t really as you are reading it , but I agree with you on all the bits re Margaret Ferrier and the 3 amigos

    345. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks, I know, I was misquoting to take the piss out of myself 🙂

    346. Robert Louis says:

      Yesindyref2 at 739pm

      I agree. I posted earlier today, buy my posts vanished (I think). In essence, I’ll be voting SNP at the EU elections regardless. Firstly because Alyn Smith gets through anyway (pretty much), and secondly, because Independence is too important. Thirdly, because a strong showing by the SNP at the EU elections sends a clear and very important message. Fourthly because a Tory cabinet minister today said the EU elections were effectively a referendum on brexit. Fifthly, I simply could not stand the gobsh*te Davidson the next day, cooing about how the SNP didn’t improve their vote.

      By every measure of what is important to me, I would be a fool not to vote SNP. I voiced my many concerns over the past few weeks, and hope to god, that somebody at the top was actually listening. But we either move on, or we get stuck, just short of independence. I still think the leadership has some serious issues to address – they really need to cut the section 30 cr*p – but I’ve stated my case already.

      Now, I will vote for them. Let us hope they do not take my vote for granted. We need action, and soon. A strong showing for the SNP will help achieve that.

    347. schrodingers cat says:


      I suppose its a question of how you define scotland, for me, it is when the rough boundaries of present day scotland come into being. for me, that is when the lowlands are incorporated into the kingdom of alba.

      nb, lowlands here is refers to area below antonine wall,

      From 600ad to the 950ad edinburgh it was part of the Anglian Kingdom of Northumbria,
      Northumbrian dialect of Old English was spoken and its name acquired the Old English suffix, burh”.

      During the tenth century its northernmost part, which had Lothian, came under the sway of the Kingdom of Scotland. The 11th century Chronicle of the Kings of Alba records that “oppidum Eden”, usually identified as Edinburgh, “was evacuated, and abandoned to the Scots until the present day.” This has been read as indicating that Lothian was ceded to the Scottish king Indulf who reigned from AD 954 to 962. Thereafter Edinburgh generally remained under the jurisdiction of the Scots

      strathclyde remained a separate kingdom until malcolm canmore, the last king of strathclyde conquered macbeth and incorporated it into the kingdom of alba

    348. TJenny says:

      Sarah – ‘Have I missed the Rev’s fundraiser?’, it’s tomorrow Stu tweeted. After the shit year he’s had, let’s all dig deep down the back of the sofa to show him we are all still here and highly supportive of him and his efforts for indy.

    349. Hamish100 says:

      Either way Berwick should be returned to Berwickshire or Lothian. It is a Scots toon.

    350. @schrodingers cat

      any chance of some links to primary sources for the versions of our history you descibe,


    351. dakk says:

      Creepy, cowardly piece of crap or trash that I am,I shall still march with gusto to the booth on the 23rd to place my x for Scotland and the SNP.

      Anything else would be damaging to Scotland’s aspirations.

    352. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “‘mixed economies’ where capitalism is encouraged” and “being friendly to business and wealth creators” you say at 4:21 pm

      @Republicofscotland is correct when they say at 5:25 pm “Socialism, with the right mixture of capitalism, can be a force for good.”

      But all that is mostly academic in Scotland as without Independence we will NEVER have a Government with full control of all the economic levers required.

      Indy 1st then you can vote for whichever party’s economic policy floats your boat.

    353. Terry callachan says:

      To legerwood 7.30pm 11 May ….I agree but continuation could be a long time .

      To cubby..8.04pm 11 May …
      1) what other material changes since 2014 can you refer to that would instigate anorher Scottish independence referendum ?
      2) Agreed, I won’t be deciding when indyref2 will happen
      3) nor will you.

      To Dave mcewan Hill 9.04pm 11 May….
      1) I don’t see any material change other than brexit that would be used by SNP as reason to have indyref2 you appear to think there are , can you tell me what those other material changes are ?
      2) I’m disappointed that you think I’m doing the work of the opposition ,I disagree with you, I would never ever do that but I am realistic and I know very well the sneaky traits of England’s Westminster and how good they are at fooling people, they have already done a fabulous job of fooling lots of Scottish people into voting for English political party,s they are masters of deception.

      We are on the same side
      My hope for Scottish independence is becoming desperate, I think about it every day, more than fleeting thoughts too ,my day to day life is affected by it because of the anger that builds in me because of the repeated onslaught of English propaganda and their insulting demeaning of Scotland.
      I refuse to say “British” because “British” is just a con, a trick to make Scottish people think they are part of something that doesn’t actually exist.
      There is only England when you scratch the surface of everything called British.

      In my lifetime I would dearly love to celebrate Scottish independence .

    354. Stravaiger says:

      @Schrodinger’s cat

      One of the quirks of this site is that the name A.l.b.a is automatically replaced by the word Caesar!, which is why your recent posts are affected. A bit crazy really that what is arguably the native name for our country, derived as it is from Albion, a name which once described all of mainland Britain until the post-Roman invasions, should be banned on a pro Scottish Independence site.

    355. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Aye, both 100% correct @Robert Louis says at 9:23 pm & @Yesindyref2 at says at7:39pm

      Maximise the SNP Vote on the 23rd.

      No ambiguity of the Pro EU and Pro Indy message this will send to the SNP Government, UK Government, The EU and the rest of the world.

      Anything else will be twisted as a “defeat for…, an example of “No appetite for…” etc. etc. by the British Nationalist Media.

    356. Phronesis says:

      Vote SNP in the EU elections to uphold Scotland’s democratic right to remain in Europe, keep supporting pro- independence sites, keep marching for independence , debate, write poetry and speak up for Scotland the country, its institutions. We are defending Scotland’s democracy together, her wonderfully inspiring civic nationalism, that has the ability to collectively rationalise, to look at evidence, to change minds when circumstances change.

      The disUnited Kingdom’s political apparatus has morphed into a 3 headed gargoyle ‘Brexit Lite’, ‘Brexit Ultra’ and its talking head ‘Brexit Party’. Brexit Party’s Monsieur Farage and Ms Widdecombe (dearie me) are ‘hankering after the glory days’ presumably when the lower orders knew their place. Has Monsieur Farage forgotten the 70s & 80s when Scotland’s manufacturing industries were wiped out and entire communities decimated by WM policies? That was not the work of the EU.
      Independence for Scotland is normal, necessary and inevitable.

      ‘Roll on four decades, & with old colonial families hankering for the glory days, coupled with an imminent European Parliament cut-down on tax-avoidance by the super-rich, & bo-oom! you’ve got the self-interest dream-team that masterminded Brexit. Of course, the democratic rights of 17 million voters had to be fooled & manipulated, but luckily the old ‘blame the immigrants’ carpet was safely tucked in Enoch Powell’s cupboards, & was rolled out to great fanfare by the Leave-dominated press. In essence, all the crap the British are experiencing right now is to preserve a few family fortunes’

    357. Legerwood says:

      yesindyref2 @ 6.04 PM

      Yes, I get it but I do not think you do.

      They were quoted correctly in the article which said what they wanted to say, and in the case of Angus Robertson, what he had said directly to members of the SNP at the Spring Conference.

      There was nothing in what they said that has not been said on this site one way or another times without number.

      Tweeting about the article I guess they thought people were savvy enough to distinguish between the emotive and totally incorrect title chosen by the Sunday Herald and what they had said in the article.

      Clearly they overestimated people’s ability to ignore the obvious provocation and with the benefit of hindsight they should have pointed out the clear disconnect between title and their quoted comments which were not dismissive or critical of the wider Yes movement but of the small minority occupying the fringes of the movement.

      At the same time they also criticised the Unionist side and its failure to even address these issues.

    358. Dan says:

      Hamish100 says at 9:40 pm

      “Either way Berwick should be returned to Berwickshire or Lothian. It is a Scots toon.”

      Hud on a minute Hamish. That’s crazy talk. Just think of the extra fuel burning and resultant environmental damage the arithmetically challenged east of Scotland drink smugglers will create, if they’ve to travel further to reach England to get round the minimum alcohol pricing policy in Scotland!

    359. David says:

      The mother’s March in London today has had a lot of media coverage. My st have been a large March? No, 2,500! How many in Glasgow last week? No call coverage.

    360. yesindyref2 says:

      You snarling, vicious, nasty and vile cybernat you!

      X marks the spot, where the SNP will be found.

    361. Sarah says:

      @TJenny. Thank you. Time to let the moths out of the wallet! Any bets on how soon we’ll reach the Rev’s target?

    362. schrodingers cat says:

      Scot Finlayson

      I did link you to 2 books by fraser and woolf, the 2 formost historians in early scots history (woolf is a yesser too, and english)

      thing is, a lot of scottish history is being done at the moment and rewriting much of what we onced believed

      eg, the point about the scots calling the picts, Cruithne, this is a much repeated statement for the last 100 years, however, woolf reviewed all of the source and showed that this was not the case. His findings are supported by pretty much every historian of this period

    363. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 20:25,

      Well, one way of looking at it may be that those staffers who are willing to give the full gamut of Scottish opinion half a chance are getting pissed off and may bail, leaving the hardline Labourite media mafia firmly in charge again. Which was the latter’s plan for this ghetto channel all along.

      Their backs are to the wall, and they are desperate enough to be willing to bring the whole edifice down rather than concede anything worthwhile.

      Small consolation as it may be, I’m looking forward to the point when some insider really “spills the beans”. The first cracks are already showing.

    364. TJenny says:

      Sarah – dinnae ken. I’m thinking this year’s might be a biggie though, as it’s gonna be one last (hopefully) humungous drive for indy.

    365. yesindyref2 says:

      Ummm, you know I’m joking, right?

    366. TJenny says:

      Ooh – Stu’s tweeted a teaser ‘not long now’ – wonder if the fundraiser’s going live at 00.01? (Shivers in anticipation). 😉

    367. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Can we please stop now rubbing salt into the wounds of what is generally regarded as a poorly-timed and maladroit diversion from what was, by all accounts, another wonderful and uplifting demonstration of popular support for independence. Recognise that it was deliberately instigated by a churnalist whose name is now mud. Period.

      The timing is not acccidental, just as the Daily Heil’s sudden conversion to Green politics is not accidental. It’s because this EU election is a de-facto dual-purpose referendum that the Little Corporal and her Col.-in-Chief in London can’t stop, despite all the empty bluster.

      So save your energies for getting out the numbers from all quarters for the SNP in just over week’s time. It’s going to humiliate the Tories and their potential Corbynite enablers.

    368. Petra says:

      Ready, steady, go! This could be the last one before IndyRef2. Dig DEEP, Wingers, to help Stu to get us over that 50% line.


      Stu:- “Not long now, folks.”

    369. dakk says:

      @yesindyref2 says:
      12 May, 2019 at 10:59 pm
      Ummm, you know I’m joking, right?

      Aw you ruined it.

      Was enjoying feeding my persecution com!ex.

    370. yesindyref2 says:


    371. HandandShrimp says:

      Voting SNP on the 23rd is an absolute no brainer…unless one happens to be a swivel eyed Brexiteer. If the latter is the case then there are a number of parties vying for your vote.

    372. Meindevon says:

      The annual fundraiser is upon us again it would seem.

      Could this be why there has been a big media anti Cybernat thing going on? Had the media got wind of it?

      Let’s hope this year will top them all and show Westminster and Ruth Davidson and Richard thingy that we will not be going away or getting back in that very cramped wee box. Ever.

    373. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Terry callachan at 10.15

      The mandate policy said “SUCH AS”. “SUCH AS” That is all. It did not preclude anything else and it also referenced evidence of a majority support of Scottish people as a just reason.

      I find it absolutely incredible with polls showing us taking three and perhaps four of the six EU seats and taking again between 51 and 56 of the Westminster seats that some people seem to think we are not doing well. They are swallowing Unionist rubbish and don’t seem to know it.
      And then they repeating it.

      Every voter who votes SNP knows exactly what the SNP is for.

    374. TJenny says:

      Meindevon – my thoughts exactly. Let’s really sock it to them.

    375. Petra says:

      From Professor John Robertson:-

      ‘Nigel and Gordon come together as fresh out of the jungle Kezia is adopted by the McDynasty show.’

    376. Iain mhor says:

      @Robert Peffers
      I appreciate the response. I think I still stand by my impression that our MEP’s (laudable as their work may be) have for two decades been largely anonymous. Yes, you (and I’m sure many others) are well appraised of their works. I wasn’t – a regrettable omission – but again, why the high profile push now and why would a couple of MEP’s be more important than all the other Scottish delegations to the EU?
      I don’t think that has really been addressed – what exactly is so vitally important about Alyn Smith’s contribution (and the other SNP dude – who I still bet the majority here couldn’t name without looking him up)

      Ok, they do work on Scotland’s behalf and all praise for it. So do very many other ‘anonymous’ delegates to the EU, who are not MEP’s, yet outnumber them and no-one is asking me to get right behind them, to support them, to raise their profile.
      So, I still think the deal is: The EU elections are a poxy proxy, therefore let’s get behind our ‘Indy’ leaning MEP’s (ie the SNP candidates) fair enough. But I’m not wearing that they are front and centre for achieving Independence, nor that it has been anything other than a two decade sinecure within the UK – hence the high profile ‘we’re important suddenly, for reasons…like wur oot a job!”

      Despite your best intentions here (much appreciated) I’d hazard Scotlands MEP’s are very much well down the scale of importance to the Independence movement. They can’t affect it because (by even your admission) the EU cannot and will not. If Scotland had no representation whatsoever at the EU Parly, then we voted for Independence and asked to be a member, (or continue to be a member) of the EU – Scotland would not be rubbered, or have it’s membership expedited any more or less, just because it had a couple of regional UK MEP’s knocking about the place beforehand.

      Don’t panic though, I’ll still vote for “our” candidates. But as a few have suggested, it’s not for the pretty speeches…

    377. chicmac says:

      @schrodingers cat

      “I would argue, that Malcolm Canmore is the 1st scottish king”

      I cannot agree there. Malcolm was obsessed with continued expansion of the kingdom of Scotland southward as had been the recent history of his predecessors.

      He was, obviously, a Scottish King but he was also one with territorial ambition.
      He was, after all relocated to Northumbria as a child following the death of his father, King Duncan, and rewon the Scottish Kingdom with Northumbrian help.

      Northumbria at that time was a moot territory, as clearly indicated in the Domesday Book (an inventory basically) drawn up by the Norman French invaders in c 1090 where Northumbria and Cumbria were not included in their reckoning.

      Malcolm was thus well versed in Northumbrian English and knew the area well so if anything had even more ambitions in that direction than his predecessors.

      However, despite all his efforts, which included seven (give or take historical classification) attempts at invasion and, of course, the marrying of a ‘Northumbrian’ princess after his wife died (apostrophes because Margaret was actually raised in exile in Hungary and he may well have had better Northern English than she did) he failed to do so.

      He could be called the first King of Scotland who failed to extend the borders beyond the present day.

      As part of his political rather than military ambition to annex Northumbria he also promoted the use of the Northumbrian English language within Scotland. It should be noted that this form of English had already undergone very significant change due to Scandinavian influenced shifts in the North of Angleland (Danelaw et al) and so was significantly different from the English of the Bernicians who had moved into SE Scotland 4 or 5 hundred years earlier.

      Arguably, had Malcolm not been so territorially ambitious, English, as we know it, may not have existed (or even at all).
      The court bardic tradition in Scotland later to become the Makars, was to develop into such a powerful literary influence that they helped the Northern Scandinavian shifts ultimately win out over the highly conservative West Saxon and Kentish versions in the far South which retained much of their Germanic origins.

      Of course, the usual SE mythos only takes up the story that London English spread Northword only after the time that it itself had adopted those ‘Northernisms’. (around the time of Chaucer).

      Both Chancery English and Caxton had come under attack for introducing ‘Scotch’ words. Caxton for including many of the Parisian French words in use in Scotland.

    378. Petra says:

      Who in their right mind wants to remain part of this “Union”?

      Westminster, suffering from memory loss – aye right, seems to forget that they r*ped and pillaged India when it was one of the richest countries in the world and then walked away leaving it poverty-stricken and divided. Just one example of their exploitive, divide and rule tactics, the world over, and now applying to Scotland of course.

      Maybe someone at the Treasury should consider tallying up what they actually owe India, inform the Home Office, and then deduct from that figure this woman’s medical bills. Better still get one of their “experts” to outline how much Indian migrants actually contribute to our economy. That’ll be a shocker. Not subsidy junckies?

    379. Cubby says:


      “Not to stick up for Cubby”

      And why not. What’s wrong with doing that Mr Twathater? LOL

    380. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Iain mhor @ 23:53,

      This is the typical insular British viewpoint. Why is their work largely unknown here? Well, for the very same reason that Nicola and the others back home are often strangely absent from media coverage. The self-blinkered media doesn’t want people to know! Lying by omission when not just plain lying about “straight bananas” and suchlike.

      This attitude of “what does it matter anyway, shrug, shrug” is the obverse of the coin whose reverse is the “not democratic” Big Lie pushed by Farage and the little coterie of far-leftoid green-ink letter-writers to The National. But for all their twisting, the Faragists certainly understand the importance of turnout – that’s how they managed to get that parasite Coburn elected last time.

      What you are also missing is the influence we can exert over on the Continent where, funnily enough, much power resides and where it actually does matter. People over there in positions of influence are now beginning to register us as distinct actors who are on their side. They are paying attention as never before to what people like Nicola are doing and saying. A good result in the upcoming elections will resonate even more. At the moment it’s all virtual, granted, but it may well swing things for us one of these days.

      Not to mention that it will also signal the democratic deficit that the Wee Corporal is so fond of defending back here. This result should be a big slap in the face for her that the media won’t be able to spin away.

      Don’t be fooled or complacent, this election matters, it really does.

    381. twathater says:

      Cubby 12.52am I try to be fair and impartial as long as everyone supports indy ,so aye stick up for ye Cubby and yesindyref2 , sigh

    382. CameronB Brodie says:

      The full-English Brexit has only happened because the rule-of-law isn’t particularly healthy in Britain (see fraud and the City of London). Time for a bit more Social and Political Psychology?

      Social Cognition and Democracy: The Relationship Between System Justification, Just World Beliefs, Authoritarianism, Need for Closure, and Need for Cognition in Hungary


      This research was aimed at examining just-world beliefs, system justification, authoritarianism, and cognitive style in a nationally representative sample (N = 1000) in Hungary, and at relating these phenomena to various demographic and political variables to find out whether the findings in Hungary would differ from its Western counterparts. According to system justification theory, there is a psychological motive to defend and justify the status quo. This theory has been tested several times in North American and Western European samples. The core finding of our study was that Hungarian people, unlike people in Western democracies, did not justify the existing establishment.

      There was strong pessimism with regard to the idea that the system serves the interests of the people. Members of disadvantaged groups (people with low economic income and/or far right political preference) strongly rejected the system. System justification beliefs were moderately related to just world beliefs, and there was a significant relationship between some aspects of need for closure (need for order, discomfort with ambiguity, and closed-mindedness) and authoritarian beliefs. Need for cognition was only related to one aspect of need for closure: closed-mindedness. The voters of right-wing parties did not display higher levels of authoritarianism than the voters of the left social-democrat party. The role of demographic and political variables, limitations, and possible developments of this research are discussed.

      Keywords: just-world hypothesis, system justification, cognitive style, need for closure, authoritarianism

    383. CameronB Brodie says:

      Anyone ever wondered what happens if you combine psychoanalysis with post-colonial theory? It might be worth considering given the full-English Brexit is an expression of England’s post-colonial malaise.

      Psychoanalysis, Colonialism, Racism

      ….This essay explores the prospects for a psychological contribution to postcolonial thought through the mediation of psychoanalysis. It does not attempt to deconstruct or historicise postcolonialism itself, at least to any significant extent, further than to state the need for a postcolonial theory of the subject that incorporates an understanding of affective and ‘subjective’ issues – precisely the area with which psychoanalysis is primarily concerned.

      The positioning of psychoanalysis as a progressive, critical approach is not, however, a particularly secure one. The central difficulty is the way psychoanalysis has frequently aligned itself with conformist and even ‘repressive’ tendencies that reproduce colonial and at times racist tropes, often in the context of psychological individualism, but sometimes in an explicitly political manner (Jacoby, 1983; Frosh, 1999). This is despite the existence of a contrary urge in psychoanalysis, especially reflected in the ‘critical theory’ tradition that made use of it in the 1950s and 1960s (e.g. Marcuse, 1955) but also in the work of several followers of Lacan (Stavrakakis, 2007) and some British social reformists (Rustin, 1991).

      The tendency of American ego psychology to give prominence to ‘adaptationist’ perspectives has been widely noted and has been criticised both by political radicals (e.g. Jacoby, 1975, 1983) and by Lacanians (cf. Roudinesco, 1990, p. 175: ‘According to [Lacan] such a psychological science had been affected by the ideals of the society in which it was produced’). The adoption of a strong anti-homosexual bias by orthodox mid-wentieth century psychoanalysts has had particularly damaging consequences for the practice and reputation of psychoanalysis as a whole, even though recent attempts to reconcile psychoanalysis and queer theory are beginning to bear fruit (Frosh, 2006; Campbell, 2000).

      Psychoanalytic assumptions about the nature of a ‘civilised’ mind will be briefly discussed below; but overt forms of racism, notably antisemitism, have also on occasions been evident in its institutional practices (Frosh, 2005, 2012). Most relevantly, colonialism is a deeply problematic issue for psychoanalysis, because it is engrained in much psychoanalytic thinking and terminology, and this has effects on contemporary theory and practice in ways that are not always recognised. For example, as discussed further below, psychoanalysts often draw on the language of the ‘primitive’ to refer to ‘unreasoning’ elements of people’s psychic lives.

      Thus, a notion that someone might be evincing a ‘primitive fantasy of destruction’ is a very familiar one, but what is not acknowledged is that this terminology not only has its roots in a colonial opposition between ‘primitive’ and ‘civilised’, but it also reproduces this division ‘unconsciously’ when it is employed. This is to say, the terminology is full of associations that position some ideas as ‘civilised’ and some as ‘primitive’, reinforcing a developmental scheme that is heavily inflected by assumptions about the relationship between seemingly irrational and rational thought processes – and in particular who might ‘own’ them.

    384. CameronB Brodie says:

      OK, that was perhaps a little technical as a taster of post-colonial thought. 🙂

      Postcolonial Thought and Social Theory


      Postcolonial thought is an intellectual approach that recognizes the importance of empire and colonialism in the making of the modern world, including the constitution of modern culture and knowledge. Although postcolonial thought has resonated strongly in the academic humanities, this book explores its implications for social science and, in particular, social theory and sociology. After introducing the respective histories of social theory and postcolonial thought, the book discusses the various waves of postcolonial thought, beginning with the first wave of prominent thinkers and authors, such as W. E. B. Du Bois, Frantz Fanon, Aimé Césaire, Amilcar Cabral, and C. L. R. James.

      After examining this history, it discusses the second-wave of postcolonial thought, including the work of prominent authors such as Edward Said, Gayatri Spivak, and Homi Bhabha. The book presents the postcolonial challenge to social theory, and charts various strategies for crafting a postcolonial social science. Although some scholars suggest that postcolonial thought and social science are incompatible, this book explores points of convergence as well as difference, and argues for a third wave of postcolonial thought emerging within social science.

      Keywords: Postcolonial theory, postcolonialism, empire, colonialism, social theory, historical sociology, critical theory, cultural studies

    385. Breeks says:

      Iain mhor says:
      12 May, 2019 at 11:53 pm

      … again, why the high profile push now and why would a couple of MEP’s be more important than all the other Scottish delegations to the EU?

      Do you think Ireland is happy to have 11 MEP’s lobbying for Irish interests during Brexit negotiations between Europe and Westminster?

      Ireland has 11 MEP’s, all backing Ireland. Scotland has 6, and unionists outnumber Nationalists by 4 to 2, and one of them as a UKIP rat. In a parliament of 750, we have 2 MEP’s advocating Scottish Independence in Europe, and yet we scratch our heads why Europe doesn’t charge to our rescue and defend Scotland’s interests with the tenacity it defends Ireland’s. Do the arithmetic people.

      Even if Scotland had a sovereign veto in Europe, like normal nations, we Independentists wouldn’t even be in command of it because we’d be overruled – with half our say and representation cancelled out by the human slug ex-Ukipper. If we can get 3 MEP’s at least we have parity. I doubt the system will conspire to prevent us getting 4.

      But why do these elections matter? Well, to be cynical, if the SNP doesn’t do well, Nicola might put IndyRef2 back on the back burner again… We need to massage Nicola’s confidence it would seem.

      But more seriously, the whole business of Scotland’s relationship with Europe is like Scotland’s “proxy” relationship with its oil. We sit back in despair and misery and let others squander away our wealth, opportunities and life chances. That’s what the United Kingdom does for us. Haven’t we all had enough? Let’s change the regime here. I’m sick of the shitty bum deal we get… and our deep seated complacency about it.

    386. Petra says:

      It looks as though Guy Verhofstadt has forgotten all about Scotland.


      Professor John Robertson:-

      ‘The Scottish Fishing Industry holds strong.’

    387. @schrodingers cat,

      my own thoughts are that there is a difference between King of Scotland and King of Scots,

      the Scots were a displaced nation before arriving in Caledonia and subduing the Britons,Gaels and Picts to found a home for their nation and calling it the land of the Scots or Scotland,

      so the first King of Scots goes back a long time before the first King of Scotland.

    388. Ken500 says:

      Get involved. Do everything folks can. Join. donate. Campaign. Get out and vote. Get one other person to vote as well. Job done.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

    389. Ken500 says:

      Prince Charlie’s got as far as Derby. Betrayed. The Jabobite risings. Against Westminster rule. Opposed in Scotland.

      Gunpowder had been invented. Uprisings cruelty put down in Scotland. Illegal occupation, cruelty and lies. The Clearances. Migration. Sheep and deer estates. Poverty and cruelty. The Westminster appalling unionist imbecile, 40million disaporia.. Scotland strikes back. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence, You know it makes sense. Get one other person to vote as well.

      People in Scotland overtaxed to pay for Westminster illegal wars, For centuries. Scotland revenues and resources wasted and mismanaged by imbeciles at Westminster. They could not make a worse mess. A total shambles, Brexit.

      The Declaration of Arbroath and the Enlightenment changed the world. For such a small population,

      Scottish invention changed the modern world. TV, telecommunication and the internet.

      China, ‘Scotland the land of invention.

      ‘Britain a small island with no Empire and no influence’.

    390. Robert Louis says:

      Great front page in ‘The National’, newspaper today. Well worth buying, our only pro indy newspaper in Scotland.

      It is clear, England is going further down the sewer, and Scotland needs a way out. Make it clear Scotland does not want brexit in ANY form, only one way to vote on 23rd May, SNP.

    391. thomas says:

      @ schrodingers cat

      If scotland isnt defined until its modern boundaries come into force , then that would mean scotland and england didnt come into being until the 13th to 15th centuries which to be honest is absurd.

      Instead of worrying about modern boundaries , i think about it as an expansion of the embryonic kingdoms such as the scottish one expanding from its original pictish heartlands in the late 9th early 10th century , and the english one from its wessex heartlands slightly after.

      Why is so much emphasis put on the lowlands of scotland by yourself? The lowlands is a modern scottish term for an area that has only become important in the modern era.

      The traditional and ancient powerbase of scotland wasnt south of the antonine wall , but north of it.

      Similarly the majority of the people lived north of the antonine wall until the industrial revolution.

      “edinburgh” as a palcename didnt exist in the time you mention. The northumbrians pushed north in 638 ad and burned a wooden stackade to the ground which was known as dinas eidyn. There is no mention or evidence of settlement by anglians at this point.

      After 638 ad , the area of dinas eidyn was on the periphery of the anglian region , of which the majority of the popualtion were british celts controlled by the anglian army and elite from bamburgh.

      200 years later the anglian kingdom of northumbria ceased to exist . There is not one piece of evidence to show dinas eidyn became edinburgh in this period. The contemporary evidence shows it is of little to no importance barely mentioned on the periphery of the anglian controlled region.

      The majority of people in the area would have still spoken p celtic , indeed the oldest literature in the welsh language comes from south east scotland around this time , and palce names like “penicuik” show the britons long survived under the rule of the angles.

      So if the majority of the people were still p celtic speaking , why would a briton call dinas eidyn edinburgh?

      Oppidum edin was taken by the gaelic scots in 950ad.There are no records showing dunedin as it became was of any importance till king david turned it into one of his burghs which was when the burgh was affixed to edinburgh in the 12th century.

      Lothian , which mustnt be confused with the modern council area wasnt ceded to anyone.

      The english who had been an expansionist military society since they came to britian in the 5th century didnt cede land to anyone , it was taken from them by the scots and the word ceded was put in later to save face.

      The aggressive scottish southern expansion continued throughout the 10th to 12th centuries , with parts of what is now northern england being then part of scotland.

      The idea there was all these english speaking northumbrians waiting patiently to be conquered by the scots and incorporated into the scottish kingdom ,in an age when there was no geneva convention , slavery ,rape pillage and wanton slaughter was carried out daily with glee is yet more modern fantasy.

      There is not one piece of evidence except very loose interpretation of modern placenames which in many cases dont go back beyond the 12th century records to say any english speakers survived in any numbers the gaelic expansion into the south east of scotland.

      Malcolm canmore didnt conquer strathclyde.Strathclyde was a vassal state of constantin mac aeda of scotland in the early 10th century , with many gaelic speakers living in strathclyde. Its last king was owain the bald who fought with malcolm the second at the battle of carham when the scots routed the english , and after strathclyde became part of scotland.

      the kingdom of strathclyde at the time was reduced down to roughly modern lanarkshire.

      Sorry mate , but i think you are wrong to think scotland didnt exist in the 10th century , just not with the boundaries as we know it today.

      ….and all this lallans speaking anglo saxon lowlands south of the antonine wall is nothing more than modern fantasy.

      The english language in any of its forms was nothing more than the jargon of peasants in a few vilages in a tiny part of the scottish population at best in south east scotland.

      Its doubtfull any survived the early medieval period mentioned , and the english dialect of scots takes root post 12th century , it becomes tha language of the state in the early 15th century when it replaces gaidhlig as the language of adminsistration , and the majority of the scottish population wont speak it till around the 16th century.

      There seems this desperation of places like edinburgh university to spin modern origin myths regarding the english language in scotland.

      or that scotland is somehow unique in having more than one language spoken within its modern boundaries historically……it isnt.

    392. DerekM says:

      Dancing squirrels and Russian bears everywhere did somebody call indyref2?

      Dear people of England you know how we mad Scots say that the tories and labour are two cheeks of the same ugly butt well the libdems is where the crap comes from and if you spin that butt around regardless of gender you will find Nigel.

    393. Terry callachan says:

      To Dave mcewan Hill..1139 hrs…

      Yes the mandate may say “such as “ but my question was, what do you think the “such as “
      IS , right now ?

      As I said earlier I cannot see anything other than “brexit” being used by the SNP as a reason for implementing indyref2 and I wondered if others could think of other things SNP would use as a reason for bringing forward indyref2.

      You mention a majority of seats for SNP as a reason to go for independence but we had that not long ago when we had 56 of 59 MP,s being SNP in Westminster ? and that didn’t bring indyref2.

      Personally I think a majority of seats in Westminster and holyrood will not jolt SNP into indyref2.

      I think only a majority of voters voting for SNP will bring that on. ( or brexit ).

      Personally I think having more SNP MP,s voted by the people of Scotland into Westminster and Holyrood is reason enough for indyref2 we should ignore the List MP,s who are not actually voted into holyrood by the people but are gifted the job by their political party.
      And I think as long as we have that kind of majority we should hold a Scottish independence referendum every two years as long as that majority holds and as long as the number voting in favour of independence does not decrease.
      Why not ? It’s our country , we can decide these things ourself.

      I’m interested though in what other material changes people such as yourself have seen that will bring on indyref2

    394. Ken500 says:

      Kenneth McAlpine. Small population. Alba/Scotia

      The Picts. The Viking, the Danes invasion. Intermingled heritage.

      David 11. Queen Margaret. Letters still exist written/replied to the Pope. Historical documents.

      The death of Alexander 111. Fell off his horse at Kinghorn . Galloping to get back to his 2nd (France) wife. Edward 1 the Hammer of the Scots. Balliol. Toom Tarbard ‘ empty jacket. Puppet.

      People in Scotland taxed to to pay Edward’s his illegal wars in France. Normandy. Conscription. ‘Raggyman rolls’. Historical documents still exist, A record of lists draw up for ratepayers to tax, The Scots revolted, William Wallace. – Robert the Bruce. Had lands in Scotland and England. The Aberdeen Common good Fund gets contributions. Legacy.

      Royal families intermarriage. To retain privileges and wealth. English, Scottish, French, Danish (Norwegian Viking). Intermarried for land and monies. A foot in both Courts for land and favour. Primogeniture. 1st choice male line. Male dominance.

      In Scotland the Clan line when down through the female line.

    395. Dorothy Devine says:

      Fundraiser launched!

    396. A C Bruce says:

      Why the surprise about Guy Verhofstadt backing the Libdems in the EU elections?

      He’s been the Leader of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats in Europe for about 10 years; long before Cameron’s gamble.

      It would probably be more unusual if he didn’t back them.

    397. Ken500 says:

      The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won. Fighting two campaigns at the same time could lose both. Lack of resources. One campaign at a time. Sweet Jesu. The SNP is funded by it’s members. That is why the SNP Gov can carry out good policies for Scotland. Without fear or favour.

      The unionist councils muck up all the time. Let the people dowm. They are a disgrace. Wasting public monies like there is no tomorrow. Not funding essential services properly. Cuts to social care and rehabilitation. Borrowing and spending on grotesque monstrosities of no value. No one wants. Empty, shops offices and hotels. Costing £Milions/Billions. A total waste of public monies. Overcrowded schools and lack of affordable homes. £Billions borrowed and wasted. The unionists are a disgrace. They have no shame.

      The Unionist Parties funded by illegal political interested groups. Jeopardised and corrupt. The Westminster unionists imbeciles. Brexit total mess. A total muck up. Disgraceful.

    398. Breeks says:

      Petra says:
      13 May, 2019 at 6:46 am
      It looks as though Guy Verhofstadt has forgotten all about Scotland…

      Can you blame him? What interface have we ever given him to interact with us? We didn’t fight Brexit, instead “Scotland” proposed a Soft Brexit Customs Union. When Westminster excluded Scotland from Brexit negotiations we ran to Court to defend powers removed from Europe being moved to London, no such dispute of Brexit itself. Fact is the Scottish Government has been lukewarm and indecisive about Brexit and Europe since 2016, and only moved from Soft Brexit to formally adopt an anti-Brexit strategy around Christmas last year, and even that anti-Brexit stance seems contradictory at times, frequently placing Scotland in a post-Brexit political landscape that sees us out of Europe but still in the UK.

      I said from the beginning, we should have embraced our Constitutional Sovereignty in 2016 and set up a rolling program of EU Summits and pro European festivals here in Scotland, to encourage greater interaction with European nations, leaders and people, and provide facilities for their accordant international news broadcasters to bypass the UK news suppression and provide a steady stream of data and pro Indy, & pro European video footage for social media to feast upon.

      But no, fk it, let’s just wait and see what turns up…

      If I had to guess, I would guess Guy Verhofstad thinks Scotland’s heart is in the right place, but after 3 years, the Scottish powers that be can’t deliver any decisive swing in the opinion polls to backup our Pro EU majority with the Pro Independence majority needed to make it safe.

      Since our sovereign Remain mandate, we have had a perfect window of opportunity to forge our own progressive future in Europe, but now we stand perilously close to missing that opportunity altogether. What can Guy Verhofstad do to help Scotland when Scotland won’t even help itself?

    399. Ken500 says:

      The ConDem/Libs caused Brexit. They are shameless. They went in with the Tories and are responsible for the EURef. Total charlatans and liars. Evel without a doubt, They covered up child abuse. They are responsible for austerity. Sanctioning and starving people. Cameron/Clegg cuts to NHS, Education and Welfare. £Billions of unnecessary cuts to essential services. The tax revenues take had increased £95Billion a year.

      Clegg liar now being paid £Millions by Zuckerberg to tax evade and lie. Losing £Billions for world essential services. Increasing poverty and inequality. LibDem hypocritical liars.

    400. Dan says:

      @A C Bruce says at 8:20 am

      I posted a link to one of Guy’s tweets on Saturday earlier in the thread.

      Was surprised nobody picked up on it.
      Breeks regularly raises the issue of Scotland raising our profile in Europe, and it seems he’s absolutely right to continue to do that in light of that tweet.

      @Petra, do those links not archive?

    401. stu mac says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      12 May, 2019 at 9:32 pm

      strathclyde remained a separate kingdom until malcolm canmore, the last king of strathclyde conquered macbeth and incorporated it into the kingdom of alba

      Not as clear cut as you make it sound. That last king of Strathclyde may or may not have existed and may or may not have been the same Malcolm that was the son of Duncan.,_son_of_the_king_of_the_Cumbrians

    402. A C Bruce says:

      Dan, I missed your tweet but saw the tweets to Verhofstadt saying he was mixing up Britain with England including 1 from Mike Russell pointing out he was wrong and that SNP was the strongest remain party. Also tweets saying similar about Plaid in Wales.

      Another from S McKenzie (I think it was her), the Councillor in Oban I think, who posted a pic of Nicola Sturgeon reminding him of her existence and our remain vote.

      However, his allegiance is to the Alliance he heads up and it would be remiss of him if he didn’t try to increase their presence in the EU Parliament. He doesn’t want Farage et al back in the EU Parliament; they will cause mayhem. His party may do well as Labour and Tories aren’t campaigning.

      Plus the UK’s stated aim is to leave; Donald Tusk puts the probability of revoking Article 50 notification at no more than 30%.

      Personally, I’ve got a bad feeling we’ll get to October and the UK will ask for a further extension due to the deadlock.

    403. Ken500 says:

      Return SNP EU candidates to help Scotland stay in the EU. Standing ovations for SNP reps in the EU Parliament. Standing up for Scotland and the EU. Scotland has great ties with the EU. Mr McAllister in Germany. Merkel’s right hand man. Told Cockburn where to go. Look up the internet/twitter. Google it. The auld alliance French. Spanish/Scottish exiles. Duel nationality. Italian links. Food, drink and music. Celebrated. Scottish/Italian masons cut the stone for the Sydney Bridge. NE of Scotland. Aberdeen granite. Emigrated to build the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

      Scottish ties with Russia/Norway and Scandinavia. Historical links Eastern European countries. Oil & Gas, Exports etc.

      Scotland needs migrants. Scotland depopulated by Westminster unionists, People from Scotland have migrated all over the world. They had to because of Westminster unionists deplorable policies. The Clearances. The Oil revenues stolen. The chronic mismanagement. Fishing, Farming, Oil and Gas sector totally mismanaged because of Westminster unionists.Thatcher’s corruption. The Tory/unionist liars. They have not got a clue. People are dying because of them.

      Kept illegally secret under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq War, Lockerbie, Dunblane kept secret for 100 years,

      Scotland gets more from the EU than from Westminster.The EU costs Scotland nothing and brings benefits. Westminster unionist just take, take, take from Scotland. £Billions lost that Scotland needs for the economy. Westminster unionist total corrupt mismanagement. A bunch of imbecile dunces. Westminster liars and charlatans.

    404. DerekM says:

      @ Terry callachan

      The biggest material change i have seen except brexit is the back door sell off of the NHS something we will use in indyref2 ,it has always been a winning vote for any party that can convince the public its in safe hands and why we see so much nonsense by the yoons trying to tie SNP bad to anything SNHS.

      Of course the reason westminster wants to sell it off is so that responsibility does not fall on them,they excel at removing accountability from parliament and themselves.

    405. stu mac says:

      @Scot Finlayson says:
      13 May, 2019 at 6:52 am

      the Scots were a displaced nation before arriving in Caledonia and subduing the Britons,Gaels and Picts to found a home for their nation and calling it the land of the Scots or Scotland so the first King of Scots goes back a long time before the first King of Scotland.

      Sorry, that’s nonsense. “Scots” was a name given by outsiders to Irish tribes/clans who spread from the North of Ireland across the Western coasts and Islands of what is now Scotland. They intermingled/conquered the local Picts (a name given by outsiders also) and formed a kingdom which they called Dalriada in their own language. Of course various groups had what we call sub-kings but we don’t know whether there was one “Scots” king or several. We just don’t know enough and some of what we know appears to be legend, not history. There’s even some argument about whether the “conquest” of the west happened or whether areas in the NI and W Scotland through trade, migration and intermarriage eventually formed the Dalriada kingdom by relatively peaceful means. It was this kingdom which eventually took over Pictland and took the name Alba and only much later called themselves Scots.

    406. Robert Peffers says:

      This might be of interest on this thread:-

    407. Petra says:

      “What interface have we ever given him (Guy Verhofstadt) to interact with us?”

      What about Scotland being only one of two countries in the UK that voted to remain in the EU and with a higher percentage vote than NIreland to remain?

      And why do you constantly play the SNP blame game and the “I know better than the experts, Breeks?” When it comes right down to it, and if you’re so smart, you’ve had three years to set up, say Pro-European festivals, but have rather decided to sit on your backside in front of your computer, carping from the sidelines, saying “fk it, let’s wait and see what turns up.”

      Nicola Surgeon has done everything in her power to halt Brexit from pre- EURef debates, producing a white paper outlining the devastation Brexit would create for Scotland through to demanding another vote for the people, no doubt in the hope that remain will win. She has also had to consider the fact that a majority of sovereign Scots won’t vote for Independence and therefore has had to cover our backs by attempting to implement the Continuity Bill, proposals for a differentiated deal for Scotland to the whole of the UK remaining in the CU and SM. If she hadn’t done that, that would be another blooming complaint from people like you. She’s also interacted with other EU nations and leaders, had talks with key EU individuals and set up Scottish Offices in France, Germany and Denmark plus trade offices around the World. We also have no idea what’s been going on behind the scenes.

      And most of all Joanna Cherry QC SNP MP (plus 5 other Scots) was at the forefront of the legal case that’s enabled the UK to revoke Article 50 altogether. I didn’t see any English politicians, such as Vince Cable, put their property / personal finances on the line to achieve that outcome. Has Mr Verhofstadt forgotten about that?

      I also wonder why we don’t see a swing towards an Indyref2 majority. Maybe it’s not so much to do with Nicola Sturgeon not working her butt off to get us our Independence, but lies more with the Unionist media and their cronies constantly castigating and undermining Nicola Sturgeon.

      Just thinking too that maybe we should forget about the EU, as GV seems to have forgotten us, and focus on joining EFTA. That may help to “swing the vote.”

    408. Breeks says:

      Further to my 8:34 post, I would go further and proffer the argument that Scotland could and should have used its constitutional leverage to put the UK Government into a vice back in 2016, with the Irish Backstop on one side and Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty on the other.

      Between the two, we could have delivered circumstances conducive to a United Ireland, an Independent Scotland, and brought about the collapse and humiliation of the Populist Right Wing Westminster Government, which would brought English and UK Constitutional reality to the fore two, maybe three years ago, and with both Ireland and Scotland safe inside Europe, the English and Welsh could be having their current existential crisis on their own time, but hopefully would have come to their senses before formally leaving Europe at all. Had we done so, Scotland and Ireland would be the Celtic Cousins and darlings of Europe for successfully defusing the toxic dirty bomb of Brexit with no casualties except the Brexit Xenophobes who who brought the UK to the brink of the Abyss.

      I am not anti Nicola Sturgeon, but I am very much anti pandering to the right wing populist agenda of Westminster, which damages more and more people the longer it survives, and treats our own Nation and our Constitutionally Sovereign rights with absolute contempt. Our unforced compromises over Brexit sail dangerously close to a virtual appeasement, but worse, unsuccessful appeasement.

      If Nicola holds a different philosophy, then so be it. She’d The First Minister, I’m nobody. But for all that Scotland has been prepared to be reasonable, accommodating and willing to compromise, what, anywhere, at any time, has actually been achieved by it?

    409. A C Bruce says:

      “I didn’t see any English politicians, such as Vince Cable, put their property / personal finances on the line to achieve that outcome”

      They didn’t put property, etc., on the line but they were worried they would lose and be liable for hundreds of thousands of pounds in expenses. One of the original pursuers dropped out because of that possibility.

      Jo Maugham, QC, who led the group, then undertook to shoulder the liability should the Scottish case to Revoke Article 50 be lost.

    410. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 13 May, 2019 at 6:03 am:

      Iain mhor says:12 May, 2019 at 11:53 pm:

      … again, why the high profile push now and why would a couple of MEP’s be more important than all the other Scottish delegations to the EU?
      Do you think Ireland is happy to have 11 MEP’s lobbying for Irish interests during Brexit negotiations between Europe and Westminster?”

      Rather a disingenuous argument, we aren’t daft. You are attempting to compare apples with oranges.

      There is no comparison to be made. Ireland has 11 MEPs and a veto because Ireland is a full member state while Scotland, at the moment, is treated as a region of a member state. thus can be outvoted by the other regions in that member state.

      Ireland has exactly the same vote as has Germany or France as a member state and if outvoted simply uses the veto.

      Scotland, at the moment, is comparable to Northern Ireland not Ireland and that is just another reason to end the United Kingdom by disuniting from the Kingdom of England.

    411. Dr Jim says:

      Daniel Hannan Tory MEP to Boulton on Sky news

      *The trouble with the EU is they’re not a country but they’re acting like one, this is our country* meaning the UK

      Not much you can say about that mentality is there?

      Except everything

    412. Dan says:

      DerekM saysat 9:19 am

      “The biggest material change i have seen except brexit is the back door sell off of the NHS something we will use in indyref2 ,it has always been a winning vote for any party that can convince the public its in safe hands and why we see so much nonsense by the yoons trying to tie SNP bad to anything SNHS.

      Of course the reason westminster wants to sell it off is so that responsibility does not fall on them,they excel at removing accountability from parliament and themselves.”

      When speaking with folk I regularly highlight the ongoing threat to our free at point of need Scottish National Health Service.
      Virtually everyone I speak to has not heard of the Naylor Report.
      Discussing health services are one the most simple ways to begin to have conversations with the public. Everyone requires access to doctors and hospitals at some point so they are more likely to listen and engage in conversation.
      A few wee vids on the subject folk may want to watch and share.

      2 minute vid by Dr Bob Gill

      2minute chunkymark vid from last year.

      Lastly, an 11 minute vid from a lad that explains it a bit further and has edited in footage of Theresa May discussing the Naylor Report.

    413. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 9.48 am

      I agree with you. I do not think for one moment Gov has forgotten Scotland. He came over in his capacity as the leader of the Liberal Democratic group in the EU Parliament.

      He also represents the European Parliament in the Brexit negotiations and, as such, is well aware of Scotland’s position and its ambitions for Independence and continued EU membership.

      The trade hubs which the Scottish Government have set up in Berlin Brussels and now Paris as well as helping to boost trade give Scotland a constant presence in Europe.

      Thanks to these initiatives by the SG and the work of MEP’s such as Alyn Smith Scotland has a much higher, and better understood, profile going into indyref2 than was the case in indyref1. As such it is much harder, if not impossible, for the Unionist side to misrepresent Scotland’s position to the EU re Independence.

      Thanks to all the hard work by the FM and other ministers a network of contacts has been established that will be beneficial to Scotland during the indyref campaign and beyond.

    414. robertknight says:

      ‘s about time the electorate in Scotland saw the Tory and Labour parties for what they are – two ends of the same turd.

      Time we flushed them away.

    415. Dr Jim says:

      This is not a Boris Johnson premiership this is a Nigel Farage premiership

      Think of that

    416. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      13 May, 2019 at 10:06 am

      Rather a disingenuous argument, we aren’t daft….

      Not daft no, just pretty good at missing the point.

    417. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      My goodness. Another SNP civil war.That’s three this week already.

    418. A C Bruce says:

      “My goodness. Another SNP civil war.That’s three this week already.”

      Vibrant debate and passion. Makes for a lively political scene.

    419. Petra says:

      Breeks you’ve surely missed your calling. It’s around seven years now since the commencement of Indyref1 negotiations and five years since we lost the Ref. You could have been well on your way to being a Consitutional expert by now or had a seat on your neighbourhood council moving on to become a Councillor or MP. That’s the route to take when you’re so unhappy and dissolutioned with the Government in your country. More so when you think that you know better than them. Prior to the SNP being in power we had the Labour Party ruling the roost giving you an even greater incentive to sort them all out. Instead you’ve decided to sit on the sidelines complaining constantly about Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP. You’re not in the “know” therefore have no idea if Nicola Sturgeon has actually considered some of your suggestions, taken advice, and been told that they’re not legally feasible.

      What we do know is that she’s informed us that she will be holding Indyref2. What we have to do now is simple, no convoluted ideas necessary, and that is to convince more Scots that she knows what she’s talking about, that she’s extremely honest and totally capable of running a newly Independent country. If we can’t do our part, worse still constantly attempt to discredit her in line with Westminster politicians / the Unionist controlled MSM, we can forget about getting out of this Union at all, imo.


      @ Dan at 10:16am ….. “NHS”.

      Totally agree with you Dan. Highlighting Westminster’s plans to fully implement the privatisation of the NHS, with the knock on effect for us, is the way to go to convince people to support Independence. Polling results show that concerns about the NHS top the bill (always in the top three on the list) with concerns about the economy, pensions and so on trailing way behind. I also get the impression (no proof right enough) that this could be a key area to focus on that could help change the minds of many of the elderly No voters, in particular the slightly better off.

      And thanks for the links.

    420. yesindyref2 says:

      Instead you’ve decided to sit on the sidelines complaining constantly about Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP

      As opposed to sitting on the sidelines complaining constantly and usually snidely about Breeks, me, and a whole load of other Indy supporters posting on Wings.

      Kind of reminds me of Jezerna Rosa somehow.

    421. CameronB Brodie says:

      Time for some psychological science from the continent, to better understand the yoon/cybernat divide?

      Intergroup Reconciliation between Flemings and Walloons: The Predictive Value of Cognitive Style, Authoritarian Ideology, and Intergroup Emotionsome psychological science?


      Testifying to the gap in fundamental research on positive intergroup outcomes, we investigated reconciliation attitudes in a non-violent intergroup context (i.e., the linguistic conflict in Belgium). By incorporating both important predictors of negative outgroup attitudes (i.e., individual differences in rigid cognitive styles and authoritarian ideologies), and important predictors of reconciliation (i.e., intergroup emotions), we aimed to contribute to a more comprehensive theoretical framework for the analysis of intergroup relations. We recruited one Flemish (N = 310) and one Walloon (N = 365) undergraduate students sample to test the proposed model. Structural equation analyses with maximum likelihood estimation were conducted using the Lavaan package.

      In both samples, similar patterns were found. More in particular, the need for cognitive closure appeared to be the basic predictor of right-wing attitudes (i.e., right-wing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation) and essentialist thinking, which were then associated with less outgroup empathy and trust, and more outgroup anger. Furthermore, outgroup trust and empathy were positively related to reconciliation. Interestingly, some differences between the Flemish and Walloon sample were found, such as the direct effects of need for closure and social dominance orientation in the first sample, and the non-significant effects of essentialism in the latter sample.

      Considering the ongoing public and political debate about the linguistic conflict in Belgium, these findings shed a new light on how individual differences relate to specific outgroup emotions, and how these are associated with important intergroup outcomes in the face of intergroup conflict.

      Keywords: reconciliation, cognitive style, authoritarian ideology, intergroup emotions

    422. geeo says:


      Agree with that post.

      As i keep reminding folks, in 2014 the SNP Delivered a means for us to take our independence.

      WE let THEM down by voting No in 2014.

      People need to remember that, and also remind themselves, that rather than get all huffy and slag off Scottish voters, they immediately re-grouped and found us another means of gaining an indyref mandate in pretty quick time.

      I would be pretty pissed off if i had done that and at the point of executing said mandate, the very people i have helped, started to turn on me.

      You really have to question the motives of people turning on the SNP at this point in proceedings.

      Like it or not, Independence without the SNP is a fairy tale.

    423. yesindyref2 says:

      @geeo “WE let THEM down by voting No in 2014.

      You and Petra might have voted NO in 2014, personally I voted YES, same as I did to Devo in 1997 and Devo in 1979.

      But it’s good you’ve come over to suporting YES since 2014, it needs another 5% or more to do so.

    424. CameronB Brodie says:

      Want to understand the political sociopaths elite who have brought us the full-English Brexit?

      Economic Attitudes, Social Attitudes and Their Psychological Underpinnings – A Study of the Finnish Political Elite

      We investigated the relation between economic and social attitudes and the psychological underpinnings of these attitudes in candidates (N = 9515) in the Finnish 2017 municipal elections. In this politically elite sample, right-wing economic attitudes and social conservatism were positively correlated (r = 0.41), and this correlation was predominantly driven by those on the economic left being socially liberal, and vice versa.

      In terms of underlying psychological processes, consistent with dual process models of political ideology, the anti-egalitarian aspect of social dominance orientation was more strongly associated with right-wing economic attitudes, and the conventionalism and aggression aspects of right-wing authoritarianism with social conservatism. Our results show that even in a non-United States context in which the masses organize their political attitudes on two independent dimensions, these dimensions are moderately aligned among certain parts of the political elite, and that the political attitudes of the political elite can be traced to underlying psychological motivations.

      We argue that equality concerns could play a role in explaining why the left-right and liberal-conservative dimensions are more strongly aligned among those on the left and those more liberal.

    425. Dan says:

      This older article on Grousebeater’s site from 2016 listing SNP achievements is well worth another look at and sharing widely.
      It’s full of ideal content to assist campaigning.

      Being reminded of this sort of stuff is just one of the benefits of being signed up to YES group emails.
      I’ve stated this before, but for any Indy minded folk reading in that aren’t currently aware of their local YES group, look them up and get signed up to their comms or even offer to assist them in some capacity.

    426. geeo says:


      Thats right, play at trying to be a smartarse.

      Thats your style recently.

      Doesn’t suit your pro indy boasts though.

      If ‘WE’ (Scots) didnt vote No in 2014, why are we not independent ?

      Still, at least you managed to avoid an “SNP BAD” post for the first time in a while, eh ?

    427. yesindyref2 says:

      @geeo “smartarse
      It seemed from your posting that you had voted NO, when you said:

      WE let THEM down by voting No in 2014.

      maybe you should make it a bit clearer. I don’t know how you voted in 2014, there have been a lot have moved from NO to YES – the Rev has a whole series of them on this site. For all I know you (and Petra) could have been two such people.

      I personally certainly let nobody down, I voted YES, so if you feel YOU let anybody down, less of the “We” thanks very much, I’m not guilty of anything.

    428. Terry callachan says:


      Good example, I’m so appreciative of a free NHS , I think a huge majority of people will always want to protect it from privatisation .
      You mentioned grousebeaters work in another post, grousebeater has provided excellent examples of how much more privatisation of NHS work is being done in England .

      The new assistance from the Scottish government to young people wanting to get on the housing ladder is a winner as well I think because so many young people in Scotland are still living with mum and dad because rents are ridiculously high and deposits for buying a house out of reach.

    429. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 09:48:

      Just thinking too that maybe we should forget about the EU, as GV seems to have forgotten us, and focus on joining EFTA. That may help to “swing the vote.”

      Re Verhofstadt, I think you just answered your own question there. Such ambivalence will get us nowhere fast. Not with the-powers-that-be in Brussels, but even more importantly not with ordinary voters here at home either. Look at the right old mess Labour have got themselves into with their ambivalence over the EU, Is that something we should have the faintest notion of emulating?

      On the contrary. The evidence is mounting steadily, for those willing and able to see it, that some such pusillanimous triangulation actually pleases nobody. An attempt at a UK-wide compromise has been confused and conflated for far too long by some with a longstanding and entirely distinct Scotland-only policy. But I’m glad to say that for this election the SNP has come out clearly 100% for Scotland staying in the EU, which is where our true interests lie. Just as it is so evidently for Ireland.

    430. Petra says:

      Ever thought that one person who voted yes, if they did, can go on and put dozens of potential Yes supporters off by running Nicola Sturgeon, SNP et al, down to the ground on an extremely popular public site a regular basis? That kind of cancels out their so-called own Yes vote, don’t you think?

      As to “complaining about a whole load of other Indy supporters.” I respect and admire the VAST majority of people who post on here, however I’ve got no time for people who seem to be undermining our cause, especially when I’m spending hours every day in an attempt to convert people. It’s one thing complaining about posters on here versus the First Minister of Scotland. She’s the person who’s in a position to get us out of this hellhole, not you Yesindyref2, much as you seem to be full of your own importance.

    431. yesindyref2 says:

      “Ever thought” that making non-directional and continual slurs against fellow Independence supporters puts you in the exact category that your 3 amigos were talking about:

      “cowards”, “creepy”, “snarling”, “vicious”, “nasty” and “vile”

      don’t you think?“. Indeed. How many of those are you?

      Why don’t you just CEASE AND DESIST?

      I’ll very happily leave you alone if you leave me alone – same goes for the others whose sole purpose seems to be to get at Independence supporters, instead of making positive and useful contributions towards Independence.

      In my view, you are a complete waste of space Petra, totally negative.

      especially when I’m spending hours every day in an attempt to convert people

      What, to NO? You’re enough to put a Saint off voting YES.

      much as you seem to be full of your own importance.

      Well Petra, that seems to be a self-defeating argument, because if I’m not actually that important, why do you fucking bother with me?

      Leave me alone, you 77th brigade troll.

    432. Petra says:

      @ RJ at 4:14pm ….. “Guy Verhofstadt / EU.”

      It was more of a tongue in cheek comment, RJ. Maybe I should have clarified that. I’m actually a fervent supporter of the EU (outlined in many posts) and “fond” of Guy Verhofstadt. Additionally 62% of Scots voted to remain in the EU not EFTA, so who would be daft enough to muddy the waters now? Not me, lol.

    433. Petra says:

      Losing the plot, Yesindyref2, and some amount of projection going on there? I’ll leave you alone when you leave Nicola Sturgeon alone. Deal?

    434. geeo says:

      Yesindyref2, you have been full blown SNP BAD for around a week now, yet you have the temerity to deride others ?

      When i wrote “we” let the SNP down, only an idiot or someone with an agenda, could possibly think that meant ANYTHING OTHER THAN “WE” as a collective.

      55% No 45% Yes 100% backs up that statement.

      I voted Yes, and converted dozens of others by discussion and using facts provided on here, but you know what ?

      Maybe i could have worked harder, converted a few more to Yes, and that makes me frustrated even more by the No vote.

      What i have NEVER done, is denigrate the ONLY political party which can facilitate a 2nd chance to vote Yes.

      If i posted the “SNP BAD” shite you have promoted these last few days, and Yes lost by a few votes, I would hate myself and worry that I was responsible for losing indy because of my negative actions.

      Others seem less concerned.

    435. yesindyref2 says:

      Losing the plot, Yesindyref2, and some amount of projection going on there? I’ll leave you alone when you leave Nicola Sturgeon alone. Deal?

      Who do you think you are? You’ve insulted Craig Murray up to the eyeballs, a good man who actually goes on marches and contributes to the cause of Independence unlike yourself, you’ve had a go at Rev who owns the site, and you think you have a right to tell people what they can or can’t post?

      You’re really stuck on yourself, call the fire rescue service, they’re used to dealing with people who’re superglued to themselves.

      And your interpretative and literary skills are nil. Remind me again, what was in the last post where I had a go at Nicola Sturgeon as you imply?

      For your information, Angus Robertson, Alyn Smith and Stewart Macdonald who I DID have a go at, are NOT Nicola Sturgeon! Perhaps you should go to specsavers …

    436. yesindyref2 says:

      Bully for you, now fuck off.

    437. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      13 May, 2019 at 5:47,
      I’m somewhat surprised at how hard you’re taking this business, badly-judged and mistimed though by general agreement it certainly was. You’re usually fairly laid-back in general (far more than yours truly! =grin=).

      Please put the blame squarely where it belongs: Neil Mackay. He set this whole thing up for whatever dubious motives and is no doubt enjoying the continuing aggravation. Focus your evident anger on the planner. He should be a complete no-go area for any SNP from now on.

    438. Dan says:

      @Terry callachan at 4:02 pm

      I should have added that the Grousebeater link I posted at 3.10pm has been recently updated so definitely worth another read if folk skipped it thinking it was old.
      I was rushing as it’s been a busy day helping a neighbour attend doctor’s appointment and picking up prescriptions.
      Interestingly when I was at the chemist I asked the pharmacist if they had heard of the Naylor Report and they only had a vague recollection of hearing the term and knew nothing about its content. Before leaving I mentioned they should consider checking it out.

    439. Terry callachan says:

      So many fall outs and insults on here.
      Generally we are all Scottish independence supporters.
      Not all Scottish independence supporters are SNP supporters but that’s okay.
      People should be allowed to differ.

      I personally don’t really care if someone likes the SNP or likes Nicola sturgeon if they support Scottish independence , I happen to think SNP are fab but I don’t always agree or understand their tactics , that’s okay too ,perhaps their tactics are sometimes shrouded in secrecy or I just miss the picture, it matters not a great deal.
      Scottish independence is what we all want.

      It’s easy to get involved in a spat on here but we should all make more effort to accept differences exist legitimately amongst Scottish independence supporters.

      I’m going to try harder to be more understanding.
      Anyone else with me ?

    440. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 17:47,
      me @ 17:59,

      Whoops, that last posting went off somehow before I was finished.

      I would just like to add that I don’t share your evident personal enthusiasm for CM, I’m afraid, because it seems to me that of late he has been assiduously spreading FUD in general, and anti-SNP bile in particular, among the ranks when what we need more than ever right now is the very opposite: resolute common purpose. So I can well understand the disapproval of the likes of Petra.

      It’s actually very strange behaviour from someone who wanted to be an SNP representative anyway. Bitter personal affront or something deeper I don’t know, but he needs to be bigger than that. I reckon the SNP knew fine what they were doing when they passed him by.

    441. Dr Jim says:

      Generally speaking the people who *offer* friendly “constructive criticism” to others in a profession aren’t in the profession they’re offering the “constructive criticism” about, but always tend to know better because *they know what they like* (music art film politics)

      When the people involved in the profession don’t accept the “constructive criticism” of the *offerers* the *offerers* immediately become angry intemporate *unconstructive* critics hell bent on the destruction of those they made the offerings to because they feel rebuffed by those they claimed they wished to befriend by those offerings

      Now fully expecting criticism from those same people claiming they don’t criticise *unjustly* *without cause* with *good reason* and so on, ad infinitum signifying nothing but exposing everything about the uninformed critic

      Why do people listen to critics?: Reinforcement of the same views they themselves hold but don’t understand they have until they’re told they have them by people who they believe are the same as them, but just a little cleverer, not too much, because that becomes arrogance and you get hammered for that too

      Fickle bunch us human race

    442. yesindyref2 says:

      Indeed, but perhaps the two whose only purpose seems to be to attack fellow Indy supporters would also be better focussing their attacks on Neil Mackay. Frankly their only contribution seems to be accusing people of being “SNP Bad”, rather than engaging in sensible debate. They’re a waste of space and energy.

      As for the 3 amigos though, you only have to look through posts on the National, the number of upvotes they get, and threads on twitter to see how widespread the anger is at the 3 amigos – and even on this thread, and the current one. Probably 1 in 4 or even 1 in 3 activists are similarly pissed off. Most of the top bloggers were highly critical.

      Hence my angle on the EU elections – vote SNP regardless, as it’s not the 3 amigos suffer by witholding an X on the ballot sheet, or campaigning, it’s Margaret Ferrier, who was on the march. I think it’s a successful angle, elsewhere I’ve had people saying “I see your point”.

      For some reason that seemed to make the 2 supposed Indy supporters – Petra and Geeo – very angry and then they attacked me. You have to wonder why. Perhaps they’d prefer if those people didn’t vote SNP in the EU elections – agents provocateurs in other words.

      Well they’re not going to get away with their fakery, not on my watch.

    443. Dan says:

      Terry callachan says at 4:02 pm

      “The new assistance from the Scottish government to young people wanting to get on the housing ladder is a winner as well I think because so many young people in Scotland are still living with mum and dad because rents are ridiculously high and deposits for buying a house out of reach.”

      While I am waiting on my tea cooking. Housing is an interesting subject. House prices are still very high. What will a bank lend as mortgage these days? 3 times salary it used to be.
      There’s virtually zero chance of any local in my area getting halfway near the price of a house based on that figure.
      There have been a couple of estates in my area selling up recently. Tenants in the rented estate houses / cottages have been having a torrid time wondering if they will or will not be able to stay in their current rented properties.
      Some of these tenants worked on the estates but owners altered the business plan as they wound up their involvement in running the estate, so these jobs came to an end, making a mockery of tenants getting the opportunity to buy the house as their tied job ended. Plus based on their wage they wouldn’t have been able to get a mortgage for the purchase price anyway.
      So the folk are cleared off the land and the houses are sold off for top dollar to wealthy folk or as holiday homes.

    444. geeo says:

      Yesndyref2 has lost his marbles !!

      He shreeks “SNP BAD” and has spent all last week pouring bile at 3 SNP/Yes people who are clearly beyond reproach regarding pro indy credentials, yet here he is, calling people who pulled him up for it “supposed” indy voters, who want folk to NOT vote SNP in the Euro elections and must be “agent provocateurs” according to the person shreeking “SNP BAD” all week on a YES forum.

      Mind you, he likes The Herald and thinks ‘uncle’ Tom Gordon and David Leask, are good journalists.

      As Petra says, some amount of projection going on there.

    445. Legerwood says:

      Dan says:
      13 May, 2019 at 6:04 pm

      If you want info on NHS Scotland then the Information Services Division (Scotland) is a good place to go ( They publish weekly reports every Tuesday on the Publications section of their web site. All the reports have a summary section so you do not have to wade through the full reports.

      If you check it out on a Tuesday then you will probably be able to identify what the Unionists will be screaming about on the Wednesday. You will also be able to see how they have misrepresented the stats.

      Also worth pointing out to people that student nurses/midwives get their fees paid AND get a bursary as well as a dependents allowance if the qualify. The intake of nurses into uni has increased by 50% in the last 6 years from 2,400 in 2012/13 to 3,700 or so in 2018/19.

    446. geeo says:

      If anyone can find one post where i have posted an “SNP BAD” comment, I will never post on here again.

      While people berate our political route to indy on here, I help rid this place of the trolls and hardcore abusers/disruptors.

      Agent Provocateur indeed !!

    447. CameronB Brodie says:

      One aimed at countering closed-mindedness and authoritarianism.

      Open-minded inquiry


      This is a brief guide to the ideal of open-minded inquiry by way of a survey of related notions. Making special reference to the educational context, the aim is to offer teachers an insight into what it would mean for their work to be influenced by this ideal, and to lead students to a deeper appreciation of open-minded inquiry. From assumptions to zealotry, the glossary provides an account of a wide range of concepts in this family of ideas, reflecting a concern and a connection throughout with the central concept of open-mindedness itself. An intricate network of relationships is uncovered that reveals the richness of this ideal; and many confusions and misunderstandings that hinder a proper appreciation of open-mindedness are identified.

    448. yesindyref2 says:

      I help rid this place of the trolls and hardcore abusers/disruptors

      I used to think so, but no you don’t, you fill the threads with accusations against anyone who has a point of view you don’t like. Without making any useful contribution.

      You use the most abuse of anyone, and cause most of the disruption. Basically you’re a bully, just like your tag-team pal Petra. If you suspect a troll, report it to the Rev. Here’s some tips for you:

      1. Write as if an undecided voter is reading.
      2. Play the ball, not the man (or woman).
      3. Show other commenters some courtesy.

      As for your post just before it, you’re obsessed with me 😍

      Sorry, I’m taken, you’ve got no chance.

      Hope that helps, have a nice day.

    449. geeo says:

      @yesindyref pontificated: “Here’s some tips for you:

      1. Write as if an undecided voter is reading.
      2. Play the ball, not the man (or woman).
      3. Show other commenters some courtesy.

      What he practises:

      yesindyref2 says:

      13 May, 2019 at 5:49 pm

      Bully for you, now fuck off.

      Fooling nobody.

    450. yesindyref2 says:

      You really really are obsessed, see a doctor! Get help!

      Here’s what you mistyped:

      Yesindyref2, you have been full blown SNP BAD for around a week now, yet you have the temerity to deride others ? (and some other crap)”

      here’s what I replied:

      Bully for you, now fuck off.

      Short and sweet, to the point, and totally merited.

      I give myself 10 out of 10. You? Not so much.

      You’re getting boring now though. Isn’t it time for your tag-teamer to jump in and get ignored?

      *fx: tap tap, I’m getting impatient, I need another laugh 🙂

    451. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. “open-mindedness”. This is a state of being that the BBC in Scotland is desperate to frustrate. Fir example, can the BBC in Scotland honestly claim to have informed Scotland about the likely consequences of the full-English Brexit?

      A Guide To Be Radically Open-Minded (in times of exponential change and innovation)

      ….The big challenge comes when we are dealing with great ideas that radically push our mental framework to a direction we might not feel comfortable with. Some of those great ideas might threaten the way we see the world, and therefore require a mindset willing to accept that what we believe might not be true. To keep up with the world’s pace of innovation and the ever-increasing level of complexity, not only do we need to look around, observe and be curious in order to find the most powerful ideas, but we also need to look at the lenses through which we see the world, because they might not be suitable for the existing reality. Those “lenses” are the equivalent to our mental framework.

    452. Hamish100 says:

      Personally I would say kiss and make up but I might be accused of some misdemeanour.

      For what its worth- The MSP’s, ex MP’s should recognise that they were patsy’s to the Herald. Answer? Don’t give the Herald interviews until they get the message. However, I fear they don’t care anyway and will produce snp bad stories. So lets not give them the oxygen of publicity. This is something we can do. No interviews. We know more bad snp stories are being prepared as we speak, Support our friends in the National.
      Next support a Vote for the SNP in the EU election. Don’t be diverted.

    453. Dr Jim says:

      The forces that would deny Scotland its Independence are working overtime right now with makey uppy stories of SNP civil wars and all the usual tales of incompetence and lying

      One of the latest inventions is the case of Joanna Cherry QC SNP MP, the tale goes that SNP headquarters, meaning the FM is not supportive of Ms Cherry who is being subjected to death threats and smears, this is nonsense and a complete fabrication, in an interview with the FM she stated quite catagorically her support and personal opinion that Ms Cherry is an asset to Independence the SNP and the group at Westminster and is highly valued and regarded but that at the moment the focus of the SNP is to win the EU elections

      The SNP will not waste its time on British contrived innuendo and smears on its members right now and take their attention away from the task at hand

      There are many people who make and have made plenty of money out of being fake supporters of Independence, some of them careerists only interested in theselves and couldn’t care less about Independence or their country but it’s a good bandwagon to jump on to get recognised, some of them British nationalists intent on subversion

      This WOS website is an example of something that brought a great deal of attention to Scottish Independence but now is suffering from the barrage of negativity piled upon it from the British Nationalists many of whom are part of the pretendy aforesaid Independence supporters

      Many will believe WOS is a bad thing now because of the amount of bad publicity it attracts and many will believe the opposite, as there is no way to count the numbers of those turned off by Wings or indeed turned on by Wings it will continue to be a subjective argument until the current fundraiser is over, then and probably only then by acclaim will a reasonable assessement of *popularity* or its usefulness as a political driver of the case for Scottish Independence it actually is

      The Scottish media would have you believe WOS is bad for Independence, that in itself probably makes the case for WOS not against
      Unionist politicians detest WOS, again making a positive case for reading it
      There have been a couple of minor SNP figures also against WOS but that was most probably down to the fact they were friends of the late political figure Kezia Dugdale which caused far more annoyance than it actually should have because the people who do count have still said nothing even though the media and other political opponents used evey trick in the book to make them denounce WOS they still have correctly said nothing

      The SNP are the threat to the British, they always have been, long before any internet bloggers came along or infiltrators of the Independence movement and the SNP will still be standing when all of this current concentration of badness is over

      Britishness is dead and the British know it, it’s just the writhings and flailings of what’s left of it striking out in every direction hoping for a last breath of life to remain, and after it…

      The SNP will still be standing and the pize will be won, a free Scotland, then we’ll see a change of attitude from the British and all of its organs of dictatorship

    454. yesindyref2 says:

      @Hamish100 “Next support a Vote for the SNP in the EU election.

      I held my nose, thought of the deserving 2nd, 3rd and 4th on the list SNP candidates, put an X in the SNP box and it’s in the post, same as my wife’s with the same vote (she does it for me as her country Ireland was independent decades ago).

      I daresay Alyn Smith will do his penance by working harder 🙂



    455. Dan says:

      I get this site has some seriously committed contributors btl.
      Pity that commitment doesn’t include the self awareness to recognise just how many valued commenters have been effectively chased off by the hardline “troll hunters” and “my way or the highway types”.
      This is a site relating to Scottish Independence, not solely an SNP site. The two are obviously inherently linked. The SNP are a broad church so there will be a fair spectrum of views held across its diverse membership, supporters, and the wider Indy movement that comment btl.
      That being the case some tolerance of others’ views and open discussion should be the prevailing characteristic here, or it’ll just becomes an uninspiring desert btl.

      EG: I recall Daisy Walker who regularly posted informed and thoughtful content “getting the treatment” in early March.
      They amongst other things brought up the question of why certain SNP office windows didn’t take the opportunity to use these highly visible spaces to promote the good and competent achievements the SNP have made.
      They pushed this idea quite regularly on here and even researched to find out if this would be allowed.
      In my view that’s just an individual’s honest attempt to exert pressure for a beneficial result and it was constructive criticism of the SNP.
      You know what, whether it was down to them pushing this on here or not, low and behold a prominent window suddenly was used for just that purpose.
      I don’t think they’ve posted since a spat on here in early March coz they were deemed “SNP Bad”…

    456. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      I was at the ‘Friends of WOS’ stall at Glasgow Green on 4th May. I did meet yesindyref2 (again) but I can’t recall meeting geeo. I met Craig Murray (again) but missed cubby. I did say ‘hello’ to Ian Brotherhood but I missed saying ‘hello’ again to David and either Sophie or Sarah Johnston, the three of whom I have met previously, at the YES Bar, Glasgow Green and Holyrood.

      We’re all ON THE SAME SIDE!

      Why the hell are you tearing bits out of each other – that the WHOLE PLANET can read?

      Some of you have to wind it in a bittie. The cause of Scottish Independence does not benefit from public bickering and point-scoring (as R Peffers has alluded to).

      Rant over…

    457. Petra says:

      @ Dr Jim at 8:38pm …… “and the SNP will still be standing when all of this current concentration of badness is over. Britishness is dead and the British know it.” ….

      Brilliant post Dr Jim. One of your best ever. We knew it would be far from easy to unshackle ourselves from this Union and there will no doubt be even worse to come before we actually achieve our objective, but we WILL WIN. Freedom is within our grasp now.

    458. Dr Jim says:

      @Dan 9:04pm

      Perhaps some confusion may have existed Dan, most genuine SNP members or supporters will tell you if you want to ask the SNP something or indeed inform them of something the best way is to contact them and there are various ways of doing it and honestly you’ve a good chance of a reply, WOS is a talking shop of people chatting about what they think and often arguments will occur because no one on this website can influence anything in any political party so it becomes a personal issue instead of a political issue

      As I outlined further back in the thread there is no such thing as constructive criticism, it just doesn’t exist on a personal level because in conversation the person or people you’re talking to remove the word constuctive from their minds and it just became criticism , which nobody likes

      Constructive criticism only works when the parties involved are equally informed and agree to it beforehand, most people are not equally informed or indeed informed at all, they’re just guessing so it becomes one opinion against another without full grasp of all the facts and that invariably leads to the rows we see between often genuine folk who mean well but are frustrated by a lack of information on things that no political party on earth will ever tell them of

      It’s the main reason WOS survives, hundreds of thousands of people guessing and arguing over stuff they don’t know so they take to social media and shout at the air hoping for an answer, and if you want a real answer go to the source instead of Me Tam and the Baams on WOS because we’re all just guessing

    459. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      I like your postings normally. but this:

      there is no such thing as constructive criticism, it just doesn’t exist on a personal level is answered by this from the Rev’s rules:

      2. Play the ball, not the man (or woman).

      There should be no personal criticism, none at all. Zero, nil, zilch, nada, zip. Comment on the comment itself, not the poster. Whether by name, or by allusion as some do in their cowardice. Yes I know, see 2 above.

      and this I’m afraid from you:

      and if you want a real answer go to the source instead of Me Tam and the Baams on WOS because we’re all just guessing

      is answered by this.

      3. Show other commenters some courtesy.

      something sadly lacking by many, including you on this occasion.

      We ARE entitled to our views, and you should respect that too.

    460. Dr Jim says:

      Pick a fight with somebody else Yesindyref2 or better with nobody because by your own words you are condemned when you say *We ARE entitled to our own views* I never said at any time that anybody wasn’t and it is you who have just contravened the very words you accuse me of, it’s bad behaviour and you know it

      You deliberately misinterpreted my words for the row you are seeking and if people are giving you a slap on this site it’s for this very reason

      I will not reply to you further on this so your only follow up will be to demonstrate clearly what others have opined you’re doing

    461. CameronB Brodie says:

      I hope folk don’t think I’m pouring oil on to troubled water. This is aimed at those who would deny Scotland a voice in her future.

      The relationship between need for cognitive closure and political orientation: The mediating role of authoritarianism


      As regards the relationship between cognitive style, authoritarianism and politics, no secure conclusion can be drawn and the debate is still alive. This contribution explores the relationship between need for closure, authoritarianism and political orientation. One hundred and seventy-eight Italian participants were administered the Italian version of the Need for Cognitive Closure scale, an Italian version of the authoritarianism scale and a measure of political orientation. Results show that both need for closure and authoritarianism are associated with a right wing political orientation, and that this relationship is linear. Moreover, authoritarianism seems to mediate the influence of need for closure on political orientation.

    462. Dan says:

      Dr Jim says at 9:33 pm

      “As I outlined further back in the thread there is no such thing as constructive criticism, it just doesn’t exist on a personal level because in conversation the person or people you’re talking to remove the word constructive from their minds and it just became criticism , which nobody likes

      Constructive criticism only works when the parties involved are equally informed and agree to it beforehand, most people are not equally informed or indeed informed at all, they’re just guessing so it becomes one opinion against another without full grasp of all the facts and that invariably leads to the rows we see between often genuine folk who mean well but are frustrated by a lack of information on things that no political party on earth will ever tell them of.”

      This thread is well on so a bit OT.
      Hmm, no such thing as constructive criticism… Then how does education and enlightenment work if folk have no ability to be receptive to new facts, ideas, reason, insight, and skills that they didn’t previously have knowledge or experience of?
      Crikey, all those years I wasted at school, college, apprenticeships under the guide of teachers, lecturers, and journeymen to “learn” me things I must have already known!

      And what a waste of my time broadening my horizons by travelling to experience and assist in different cultures and societies, ranging from seeing the excesses of financial wealth in the USA, to broken abandoned boys rocking in their own piss in orphanages in post Ceausescu Romania, and a myriad other experiences in between.

      I feel I’ve made a huge mistake in my life if after all my endevours to become a more decent, knowledgeable, social, and empathic entity it’s all wasted because we now live in a fixed paradigm because ego and snowflakeness have stalled progressive societal developments…

      I should never have left Plato’s cave. Stuck in this bloody body of a coagulation of stardust on a bigger lump of stardust for near a half century (earth years). Let me be free of all this pish so I can return to being intergalactic compost…

    463. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      Ah! That clarifies things. Your postings seemed to be non-directional, but you have made it clear that your comments were actually aimed at me, without having the courage befgore your response, to actually name me.

      No, I wasn’t trying to pick a fight with you, I wanted to see if you were trying to make some sensible peace, or were joining the bully gang of two. Clearly it was the latter.

      Shame on you.

    464. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks for that, but the decision is always where best to spend time, what best to do, who to do it with. And when there are some people who want to restrict open debate, to insult, to denigrate, to make false allegations, what’s the point in doing that? This thread is off the main track otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered.

      There are many have tried to post on Wings, and given up.

      No wonder.

    465. yesindyref2 says:

      42. And don’t forget the towel.

    466. Dan says:

      yesindyref2 says at 11:17 pm

      “42. And don’t forget the towel.”

      Indeed, though my post was more in solidarity with Zog – The Dancing Fool, in Kurt Vonnegut’s Breakfast of Champions.

    467. Angus says:


      Are you trying to close this site down

    468. Petra says:

      Stu my posts are still in moderation. I can’t find anything wrong with them. What’s the score?

    469. yesindyref2 says:

      Ouch. Had to look that one up.

    470. cassandra says:

      Keeping the last call thread clear of this nonsense but have a look at @Cubby 12.21 pm over there. ‘Cubby’ posting to ‘Cubby’.

      So, Cubby, you thought no one would notice you were posting to yourself? And then a post from @geeo at 12.37 pm trying to cover it up.

      A mighty faux pas there.

      How many other names apart from ‘geeo’ do you post under? Always thought you and ‘geeo’ were identical in your postings and you always high five each other.

      The vigilante(s) unmasked. What an absolute walloper.

    471. geeo says:

      Away ya gibbering clown ‘cassandra’.

      That ‘connection’ only exists in your one brain cell head (being generous there).

      You are actually hilarious

    472. Hamish100 says:

      Is it true or false? Facts please

    473. geeo says:

      @hamish 100.

      This is the exchanges which ‘cassandra’ equates to me being a Cubby ‘multiple’ account…!!

      …. ……

      Cubby says:

      14 May, 2019 at 12:21 pm


      Let’s be clear. No matter the results in the EU elections the Britnat media will spin it as a bad result for the SNP, the Scotgov and for Scottish independence. All this talk about the SNP (from Curtice and others) sweeping the board/ winning 5 or 6 MEPs is just setting the scene to say SNP failed again.

      So anyone posting comments on Wings like “winning all seats” is just plain ignorant or more likely imo following Curtice’s line to set high expectations then say SNP Failed. So why would an independence supporter do this – thick or a phoney independence supporter?

      The SNP won the 2017 GE – what does the Britnat media say – Truthless Davidson won it.

      The Britnat media are strangers to the truth – and that’s a fact.


      Then this:

      North chiel says:

      14 May, 2019 at 12:23 pm

      As regards the link to the “ Scotsman” at 1155 , I note that Professor Curtice is “ bigging up” the SNP “ record result “ forecasted. However, at no time does he mention seats in the article for the good reason that he knows well that 3 seats would be an outstanding result for the SNP under PR and his “ record result” headline implies more than this. Therefore , he can thereafter return to the “ Scotsman” with a post election “ analysis” “ playing down” the SNP result. ( propaganda in the making).

      Then my post (@12.37pm).

      geeo says:

      14 May, 2019 at 12:37 pm

      @Cubby and North Chiel re: EU elections.

      I posted this on last thread, and is relevent to both your excellent comments.

      geeo says:

      12 May, 2019 at 5:50 pm

      1st it was splitters, telling folk to ‘vote green’ in the EU elections (anything except SNP as per unionist agendas).

      Now it seems we have ‘expectation failure’ where folk are promoting this idea that SNP MEP’s will/should win ALL 6 Seats on the 23rd May.

      Then, lo and behold, anything less (probably 3, POSSIBLY 4) will be deemed as ‘failure’ by the SNP.

      In the real world, it is really difficult to win even 3 seats at this election in Scotland.

      So for the starting expectation to be, or even hope to be, 6 seats, is frankly, for the birds.

      3 seats from 6 will be a great result, 4 will be a phenomenal result.

      There are no expectations from the party to win 6 seats, nor even 5.

      3 seats is where expectations sit, with an eye on a fourth, if the stars align on the day.

      That was certainly the view of my SNP MP, Martyn Day.

      Quietly confident of 3, dreaming of 4.

      5 and 6 – no chance.

      Curtice is a pish dribbler, setting up ‘SNP failure’ propaganda for later as you guys said.

      He is fooling nobody, except those happy and
      willing to be fooled.


      Which part of this post (me @ 12.37pm) looks like a ‘covering up’ of me being Cubby, rather than an agreement that Curtice and the media are propagandist tossers ?

      Delusional mentalist with Cubby/geeo obsession at work, do not disturb 🙂

    474. Ken500 says:

      Good programme about Scotland Glasgow, Dundee etc. V&A.

      Alex Massie – Carlton Rock. Gave £400,000 to Labour. Willie Young Labour. ACC Labour connection.

      ACC Labour/Tory imbeciles. Ruining the City.

      Alex Massie now gives donations to the Tories.

    475. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ken500 @ 08:59,

      You have evidently confused Alex Massie (writer) with Alan Massie (businessman).

    476. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Stu my posts are still in moderation. I can’t find anything wrong with them. What’s the score?”

      Your comment’s been up for ages and ages.

    477. Petra says:

      Oh right. I checked the three posts that were in moderation on a number of occasions and then gave up. See them now. Thanks.

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