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Return To Arsehole Mountain

Posted on July 22, 2020 by

The Scottish media is in a total frenzy this morning over the long-delayed publication of the “Russia Report” into alleged interference by Vladimir Putin’s regime in UK politics.

The Herald, Scotsman, Mail, Express and the i all lead their front pages with the story today, and the Telegraph did it yesterday. So we thought you might like to see the entirety of the indyref coverage that’s actually in the 55-page report.

Here it is:

That’s all of it. The whole thing. The total evidence of “Russian meddling” is a single paragraph, so redacted that it doesn’t make any sense, based on a single example of something that had allegedly happened AFTER the referendum, and which was in any event supposedly intended for a Russian domestic audience, not voters in Scotland.

The meaning of the phrase “credible open source commentary” is explained very well by Craig Murray here, but will already be familiar to Wings readers under the name “The Some Arsehole Doctrine”. All it means is “any old rubbish written by some clown that the UK government happens to want you to believe”.

In this particular case the clown is Hugh “Ben” Nimmo, a man incapable of even being honest about his own name, and who was paid £5,000 a month by the UK government specifically so he’d say what it wanted him to say under the auspices of the amusingly Orwellian-named spook bureau “Integrity Initiative”.

(It’s very much like the way the Scottish Government funds womens’ and LGBT groups on the strict condition that they adopt “trans-inclusive” policies, so that the Scottish Government can then say those groups conveniently support its trans policies when it comes to consultations and the like.)

He was aided/puffed up by demented Reds-under-the-bed witch-hunter David Leask – formerly of the Herald, now freelancing for The Times – and his imbecile apprentice Jennifer Jones, literally a random nobody, who between them two years ago penned one of the most infamous pieces of completely evidence-free conspiracy gibberish ever seen in the pages of the Scottish press.

And then in turn that gibberish is cited as “credible open source commentary” and the whole thing operates as a mutual circle of support, in which the media reports that the government said that the media had reported something the government said and that must therefore prove that it’s true.

(We gather Nimmo now performs much the same work of fabrication and innuendo for Nick Clegg at Facebook, persumably for even more money. Nice gig if you can get it.)

The SNP’s response to this tissue of fantasy nonsense, of course, has been to swallow the report and the media’s presentation of it in the most craven way imaginable.

(The report showed ABSOLUTELY NO “links to the 2014 independence vote”.)

The party’s defence spokesman astonishingly even urged his followers to read Leask’s endless paranoid ramblings on the subject.

And those of a bunch of other nutters including Edward Lucas, who in 2018 warned that Russia would poison the England team at that year’s World Cup to prevent them from winning the trophy, as if England ever needed any help to not win a World Cup.

And naturally it’s also been deployed against Alex Salmond:

(We’re not quite sure in what way the SNP intends to exert “pressure” on Salmond over his RT show, given that he’s a private citizen who isn’t a member of their party. It sounds, well, almost like the sort of thing you’d expect the Russian government to do.)

Of course, it IS true that there was direct and overt interference in the independence referendum from political leaders in a foreign country:

But there remains not a single solitary atom of evidence that Russia had any part in it – except for the time when Vladimir Putin, at the apparent urging of David Cameron, said “One should not forget that being part of a single strong state has some advantages, and one should not overlook this”.

The mountain of hysteria that’s overshadowing the Scottish political sphere today isn’t even built from a molehill. It’s built on literally nothing. Not one single material fact. But the media simply presents it as if there is and relies on the fact that nobody will read the actual document.

The Russia report is indeed full of truly shocking scandal, most of which concerns the complacency and recklessness of the British security services and the mind-boggling amounts of Russian money being openly funnelled to the Conservative Party, including its Scottish branch office.

But not a solitary atom of it is anything to do with the indyref, and anyone who tells you otherwise almost certainly has something to hide that they’re desperately trying to distract you from.

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      Return To Arsehole Mountain | speymouth

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    1. John Lowe says:

      They released the Russia Report to hide Monday nights WM Voting.

    2. callmedave says:

      It’s a red squirrel! Diversion alert for gullible Scots.

      Nothing to see here move along while I sharpen my sickle. 🙁

    3. defo says:

      The City of London.
      Money laundering to the World, by Royal appointment.
      ‘We’ll clean anything, for a cut’.

    4. Cuilean says:

      Since the polls showing support for taking back control from the Tories is now at 54%, the old, worn lies & scare stories from 2014 have been resurrected.

      So tired of all of it. Something has to give.

    5. stumac says:

      Massive deflection from story about Tories voting to sell off the NHS

    6. schrodingers cat says:

      pretty blatant lying from the unionists

      you can fool some of the people…. etc

      i’m not sure how much traction this rewriting of history will gain

    7. Colin Alexander says:

      Indyref, the SNP’s “Gold Standard”.

      The indy movement’s Holy Grail.

      There is no fair democratic route to independence as part of the UK.

      As long as the SNP pretend there is, and the YES movement view a UK controlled indyref as the greatest thing ever, we are doomed.

      We could exercise sovereignty by resiling the Treaty of Union: The basis for UK Parliament asserting its “sovereignty” over Scotland.

      We could later vote to confirm an independent Scotland’s constitution: the Baltic Way to independence.

      But, it’s no gonnae happen: the SNP have gone British.

      Scotland is a British colony and that’s no gonnae change under colonial administrator Sturgeon or via any other Scots politicians who vow their allegiance to Purrin Betty, the UK’s Imperial Majesty.

    8. Paul Miller says:

      But remember, if you don’t buy a paper, journalism will die. Is that not what they say?

    9. Frank Waring says:

      Squirrels, dead cats and now the dog in the nighttime……
      One would expect any party that supports Scottish independence to protest, at least a little bit, about such a crude smear.
      If not, one can reasonably ask ‘why not?’

      Gregory : “Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?”
      Sherlock Holmes: “To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time.”
      Gregory: “The dog did nothing in the night-time.”
      Sherlock Holmes: “That was the curious incident.”

    10. Beaker says:

      Russia likes interfering in all sides of just about any democracy. It causes divisions and instability. Not only Russia, you can add the USA, UK, China, France etc to the list of countries that like to mess up someone else.

      Salmond’s an easy target due to his show on RT, especially following the Salisbury nerve gas poisoning. Of course he is no longer part of the SNP but remains linked to them in the mindset of a lot of people who don’t follow politics too closely.

      Anyone who thinks the Russians are lily-white really needs to pay more attention. Ask Ukrainians what they think.

    11. Breeks says:

      Nicola “Sit-on-yer-arse-for-five-years” Sturgeon warns us against complacency…. while Scotland’s sovereign constitution is trashed before our eyes.

    12. Doug says:

      If Russia wanted Scotland to be independent they would have funnelled loads of cash into the SNP coffers not the Tory party.

      It’s been well established that it’s the Right Wing Parties who are happy to accept donations from anyone and everyone and who have the smaller membership which is easier to manipulate.

      Had Scotland voted to leave the UK in 2014 I don’t think there would ever have been a Brexit Ref. There’s a number of reasons but here are a few.

      UK would spend years sorting out Scottish Independence and would likely not have the political capital to spend on another extended debate about trade deals etc with the EU.

      There is no way the Tories would allow a Scotland in the EU influencing EU policy and possible post Brexit trade deals. So even if they wanted to break away from the EU they wouldn’t, just to spite Scotland and likely block our EU membership aspirations.

      Had David Cameron lost the Indy Vote that would have stopped referendums in their tracks for good. Politicians would be scared witless of the voice of the people not constrained by First Past the Post.

      With UKIP in the wings ready to go and of course all their dodgy cash – the best case to gain influence for Russia was for them to support the Union to set up a possible Brexit vote which would be far far more destabilizing.

      Even if there were Russian Troll Farms and so called Cybernats – The huge numbers at Rallies and Marches weren’t made up they were there I saw them. This whole story seems to be to benefit the unionist media and trolls who over the years have conspired to get pro union letters in newspapers every single day without fail, working together to pretend to have greater strength in number. They get to play the victim here and it allows the SNP to ignore those who challenge their lack of drive for Independence as Russian Bots. It’s a nonsense. But it benefits both the Unionists and the SNP High Command right now to accept/peddle this nonsense.

    13. schrodingers cat says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      you can fool some of the people…. etc

      Colin Alexander says:
      the SNP have gone British.

      see, you can fool some of the the people all of the time 🙂

    14. CameronB Brodie says:

      Scotland is left defenseless unless we find leadership that is politically switched-on, and respects the rule-of-law.

      Post-Truth Politics in the UK’s Brexit Referendum
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2336825X1802600305

    15. Breastplate says:

      Beaker,
      As Stu pointed out, the foreign country that constantly interferes in Scottish politics is England not Russia. That England recruits other foreign countries to help just rubs salt into the wound.
      There is absolutely no reason for your Russophobia whatsoever when it comes to Scottish independence.

      Remember, it’s EVEL we have here as well as English votes for Scottish Laws. Perhaps it would be more constructive to focus on the country that is actively trying to harm Scotland rather than an Eastern bogeyman.

    16. Bob Mack says:

      There is some pretty blatant lying from the Unionists, but there is some pretty blatant co operation in avoiding the facts from the SNP.

      What the bell are we missing? What has happened to the whirlwind we were sending to Westminster to stir things up?

      Instead they have become part of the recipe of that place.

      Let me be very clear. We have some good MPs, but we also have some who evidently could not give a toss about the reasons we voted for them and sent them to Westminster.

    17. defo says:

      In other, non squirrel news, devolution is dead.
      It may take a while before the stench seeps out, but it will.
      Where then?

    18. Bob Mack says:

      May I ask everyone on here why you voted SNP?

      What honestly were the reasons they were getting your vote?

      To do what?

      I’d really really like to know.

    19. Ottomanboi says:

      The events of 2020 prove beyond doubt that there is a symbiosis between authority and assholes.
      That turds float is a unwritten law of physics.

      Ginny!” said Mr. Weasley, flabbergasted. “Haven’t I taught you anything? What have I always told you? Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can’t see where it keeps its brain?”
      ? J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

    20. Bob Mack says:

      Btw I mean the Westminster parliment.

    21. Robert graham says:

      It’s ok Colin we see the resident fool with the oh so right on monicker ,

      Why have you been singled out (maybe he is a bit bored eh) he will give up shortly before the shift changes then the other bots gets going for the afternoon shift .

      Aye that’s you Shoruder can’t be bothered checking the spelling or whatever or who you are impersonating today , Are you Ian Blackford in disguise by any chance ? .Just asking like .

    22. cirsium says:

      Good overview, Rev. The list of “expert” witnesses comprises the Head of Integrity Initiative, Christopher Donnelly, agents of influence recruited by Integrity Initiative (Anne Applebaum, William Browder, Edward Lucas) and “ex”MI6 Christopher Steele.

      The circular arrangement reminds me of the preparations for the attack on Iraq. ‘Scooter’ Libby, Cheney’s Chief of Staff, briefs Judith Miller, a New York Times journalist, on “highly likely” Iraqi WMD. Her article is then quoted by Dick Cheney on TV interviews to show that Iraqi WMD are a threat.

      Integrity Initiative prepares the disinformation. Their “experts” brief the Parliamentary Committee. The Committee’s Report is then quoted in the Corporate Media which reports the disinformation as fact.

    23. Dan says:

      @Breastplate at 12.39pm

      Aye, and it’ll be a percentage of Scottish taxpayer’s money that pays for that UK interference in Scottish affairs.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/07/how-to-spot-a-twitter-troll/

      Sort of related, I’ve a hazy recollection Craig Murray produced another blog, probably a couple of years back now, about twitter bots which related to those pushing “Brexit” and tracking their activity. I couldn’t find a link to that article…

    24. Clapper57 says:

      Sky news Russia Report interview Grant Shapps this morning :

      Please note if anyone on here is a spy then you will need to register as Grant Shapps confirmed this morning there could be a Register for Spies…..don’t say you haven’t been warned.

      Please add your name (real name or spy name i.e. Ruski-007) onto this register…. and then and only then… can you legally continue spying….or rather Carry on Spying…….please await further details as to the clocking in/out process when you, as a spy, go out and about on a mission…..Grant Shapps is the Secretary of State for Transport so was appropriate that he, this morning, should state the above as a possible solution to any subsequent interference by Russians and others into UKnotOK…as everyone knows spying is synonymous with transport in a roundabout sort of way….also Highway code and Spy code…Tomatoe…Tomaytoe….etc etc

      Your welcome.

    25. Freshmint says:

      I really think we’re at the stage where if the UK gov genuinely offered Nicola Sturgeon a Section 30 she would decline it on the grounds of concern over Russian interference in the vote.

    26. Confused says:

      if Russia was messin with indy, we should at least try to get hold of some “hypersonic glide vehicles” and S-400s

      – but the allegations are quite clever – the “interference” was the russian media pointing out the rigging that was going on – glaring statistical anomalies, which were never questioned by poultice, or anyone, then the unexplained clairvoyance of wee ruthie

      it is cheating to point out we are cheating

      – chutzpah

    27. Breeks says:

      Just flagging this up… Salmond Inquiry Committee concerned there’s too much redacted information in the Scottish Government’s evidence.

      Make of it what you will…

      https://archive.is/gxrCN

      ”…Ms Fabiani said the committee was particularly worried that material involving the “free and frank exchange of views for the purpose of deliberation”, which is commonly redacted before release to the public, had also been cut out of the committee’s confidential evidence.

      She said: “Please confirm whether information has been redacted that would fall under this exemption before submitting the documents to the Committee.

      “We believe that it would not be appropriate to withhold information from the parliamentary inquiry on those grounds.”

      “We therefore seek reassurance that the Scottish Government did not exclude any information that may be relevant to the Committee.”

    28. callmedave says:

      SHOCK: Sturgeon to let Russian submarines take over in Clyde bases after Indy! 🙂

      https://archive.is/Hfjte

    29. fillofficer says:

      you gorra laff
      if that’s how easy it is for revstu to ridicule a formal report,
      i’m glad i don’t waste any of my cash on the many ‘newspapers’ who treat this crap as legit
      the poor blinkered suckers who lap it up deserve no sympathy
      we truly are doomed

    30. CameronB Brodie says:

      It would appear that everyone is now in on the institutional gas-lighting of Scotland.

      Full text.

      Journal of Social and Political Psychology Vol 7, No 2 (2019)
      Shaping the Modern World With a Stone-Age Brain: The Brexit Referendum and the Moral Foundations Theory

      Abstract
      Decision making is not always a reasoned process. It is often subject to reflexive heuristics. The Moral Foundations Theory is a popular theoretical framework that characterises political decisions by adherence to an evolutionary criterion.

      Based on recurrent ancestral pressures, this model anticipates our species’ tribal history has resulted in a set of intuitive ethics: Care/ Harm, Fairness/ Cheating, Loyalty/ Betrayal, Authority/ Subversion, and Sanctity/ Degradation.

      Focusing on the winning side, this paper analyses official communications, polling data and media coverage to explore how the Leave campaigners intentionally or unintentionally appealed to the public’s moral intuitions. In doing so, it aims to show why evolutionary psychology potentially offers a useful layer of analysis with which to understand contemporary politics.

      Keywords:
      Brexit, evolutionary psychology, UK, European Union, Moral Foundations Theory

      https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/1032/html

    31. Stu hutch says:

      Think it’s the Russians that are saying.the uk goverment rigged the independence vote in 2014.assuming they are saying that they obviously have proof.my guess is they did it at the behest of david Cameron and was to do with the postal votes.remember ruthie was on tv before the count saying it was overwhelming for a no vote.should the snp not be asking for an enquiry about that ?.be interesting to hear Cameron’s reply in public of that.anyway just listened to blackford on pmqs really think we have past the point where we can rely on the snp to do what they were elected to do.

    32. Bob Mack says:

      Oh goody. Just heard the Royal Bank of Scotland is to be rebranded Nat West Group. There goes another.

    33. MorvenM says:

      “…as if England ever needed any help to not win a World Cup.”

      Ouch! That’ll sting. I confidently expect Nicola and Humza to announce that not supporting England in the World Cup is anti-English racism.?

    34. Polly says:

      It was easy to see where it was heading as soon as Stewart Hosie mentioned indyref briefly during yesterday’s press conference. You’ve rebutted it well here but the papers will run and run and some people will believe them, though the real danger is they’ll use it to get at us when any real campaign starts and if any referendum is called, and even any election now will be weaponised that way against support for independence.

      You’re great and many yessers are good at fighting these fires but it needs the SNP to bring out the big fire hose and extinguish it quickly, since they haven’t, like all fires it will grow until it becomes unmanageable. Hosie, despite his name, was too subtle, unable or unwilling to more than sputter in his response to specific questions yesterday and Sturgeon’s tap was shown to be connected to a dry aqueduct. And all the while the votes that passed in parliament affecting devolved NHS and agriculture is ignored by the flames. Those people who say we have to take things into our own hands and we can’t expect the SNP to do everything should criticise them when they don’t do things they should do in times like these. We have no power to call press conferences and call out lies, they do and fail to do it.

    35. MorvenM says:

      My ? should be a wee smiley thing.

    36. F Mooney says:

      Among the best – and that’s a high bar. Get a fundraiser going, because why the hell not.

    37. Vivian O'Blivion says:

      The Party is hoisted by its own petard. Stephen Gethins was a notorious Russophobe in the HoC. Gethins was the first SNP MP to be “allowed” a post on the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. That is to say, the Party put him forward to represent the collective. Gethins was a first time MP with a majority of TWO! FFS! Gethins waltzed straight into a post at the notoriously Atlanticist, School of International Relations at St Andrews Uni. after loosing his constituency in 2019. It’s no coincidence that the “auld haunted barn” that housed the Integrity Initiative was just down the road. The SoIR is a den of junior spooks.
      Oh, and don’t ask about Humza Yousaf’s time in the State Department’s, International Visitor Leadership Program.

    38. Shug says:

      The Russians did meddle they gave money to the conservatives

    39. Shug says:

      Funny his name is Boris and Cummings worked there for a while
      And now he is wandering round a nomber of top secret UK bases
      You could not make this up

    40. L. Campbell says:

      Totalitarians try to out totalitarians accused of totalitarian behaviour in referendum in which totalitarian government, a different one from the totalitarian government actually accused of said totalitarian behaviour, DID interfere in a totalitarian way, and the gullible in Scotland fall for the totalitarian narrative, as they have for the totalitarian trans lobby’s totalitarian agenda. Meanwhile, the possibly (probably) real interference (because that makes a lot more sense) by totalitarians in another referendum, held by totalitarians, has not been publicized and the gullible in Scotland fall for that totalitarian agenda, too, encouraged by an administration which is blind to/colluding in the totalitarian interference in its own backyard.

    41. Alec Lomax says:

      Bob Mack – what was the alternative?

    42. Stoker says:

      Quote from the article above:

      “But not an atom of it is anything to do with the indyref, and anyone who tells you otherwise almost certainly has something to hide that they’re desperately trying to distract you from.”

      What, like the results of 2 seriously important votes that took place at Westminster the night before? 😉 Two serious results Sturgeon has done absolutely zero about.

      Not even called a press conference to alert the public and make it known how unacceptable it was for Scotland, and the devolution process, to be treated in this manner.

      It is well within her power to do so and although she’s a complicit and feeble creature she does have the power and ability to do at least that. Who knows how many more that would have brought to the cause?

      Nah! Far too busy punting extreme minority issues down our throats and feeding the Britnat propaganda beast (media) with millions of pounds at a time. Isn’t it about time she got off her arse and got OUR money’s worth out of that Britnat media and used them for our benefit for a change?

      As they say, all it takes for evil to flourish is for good servants to do nothing. Or something like that!;)

    43. J Galt says:

      Stewart MacDonald is as big a nutter as Leask – that the SNP has such fools influencing it’s foreign policy is another good reason to have left the party until there’s a clearout.

    44. Bob Mack says:

      @Alex Lomax,

      No altenative, but surely you had expectations about what they were going to do when they arrived at Wsstminster?

      I know I did.

    45. Sharny Dubs says:

      What I find depressing is NS assumption that the electorate will swallow this crap.

      She really must have a low opinion.

    46. ScottieDog says:

      David Leask,
      Still the only ‘journo’ I have blocked on twitter. Absolute nutter.
      This will be milked for sometime in part to hide the dismantling of devolution. Of course it will also be used as a stick to beat Mr Salmond should he return to the fray.

      The U.K. govt aren’t pressing ahead with their facist takeover despite COVID19, they are using it in order to press ahead.

    47. CameronB Brodie says:

      Remember, Pablo Picasso was never called an arsehole. 😉

      EU Referendum Analysis 2016:
      Media, Voters and the Campaign
      Early reflections from leading UK academics

      http://eprints.bournemouth.ac.uk/24337/1/EU%20Referendum%20Analysis%202016%20-%20Jackson%20Thorsen%20and%20Wring%20v1.pdf

    48. A Person says:

      A certain type of “liberal”- the kind of person with a portrait of Tony Blair on their wall, who thinks the world was going swimmingly circa 2012- hasn’t been able to cope with the rise of “populism”. You see it in the reaction of “haute remainers” to Brexit and in the reaction of the Hillary Clinton mob to Trump. They just can’t accept that they lost, that people might have had legitimate grievances with the world as it then was, and so they blame it on a Russian bogeyman. I loathe Brexit, but the implication from some that it must be cancelled because Russia is so blatantly anti-democratic it angers me.

      Independence has its roots in similar impulses imo. Whereas England voted for Brexit to get rid of foreigners and America voted for Trump to build a wall, this urge has manifested itself in a far, far more positive form here. Rather than tear down the existing system we seek to build a new, better one. And rather than blame minorities for our problems we are blaming the fact that we are governed by people who couldn’t care less about us. But you get the same hysterical response from the same people. The Scottish Labour types who were doing pretty nicely before the referendum are incapable of handling the political shift, so it’s got to be Putin’s fault.

      In England and America this bollocks has had no effect on support for Brexit and Trump and I doubt anyone in Scotland will be dissuaded from supporting independence, or from considering supporting independence, by such transparently desperate smears. Everybody knows that Britain interferes in other countries’ elections, so to see establishment politicians screeching like Victorian maiden aunts about the horrid Russians just looks ridiculous. And if Alex Salmond wants the support of the Russian government for his views, why shouldn’t he? Plenty of Russian and Saudi
      Money swirling around the Tory party.

    49. schrodingers cat says:

      TOMMY Sheridan has confirmed his Solidarity party is involved in a new pro-independence group set up by a former SNP MSP.

      Dave Thompson fronts the new Alliance for Independence (AFI), which is due to submit its registration paperwork to the Electoral Commission today.

      rock on tommy, we need a hell raiser 🙂

    50. G H Graham says:

      I recently asked Carole Cadwalladr of The Gaurdian, for a single example of how I, as a voter in the independence referendum, may have been influenced by anyone even remotely connected to Russia.

      Silence.

      If nothing else with regard to the 2014 & the phoney Russian connections, the hysteria is profoundly amusing.

      Russian money pumped into the Conservative Party & the British Establishment in London however, is quite the eyebrow raising matter.

    51. Polly says:

      Schrodingers cat says:
      you can fool some of the people…. etc (in response to ‘the SNP have gone British‘)

      Wasn’t it only a few days ago Nicola Sturgeon was interviewed by Cathy Newman and said ‘unlikely…but never say never’ to trying to become PM? I know it was a jokey throwaway line in the interview to a question of where on the ladder of success she could climb next, but many a true word can be spoken in jest.

      And if there is a brick wall fencing us in stopping us getting independence after next year, as you said yourself it’s the end of the road soon, how do any of us know what her next move will be? Is it entirely out of the question she could think of doing as many in England had already asked her and agree to stand candidates in English constituencies? She could phrase it as doing it for independence. Something along the lines of can’t beat them join them, or take them down from the inside. Or as some would think, maybe this is what she wanted all along? And maybe could be the reason she didn’t push independence hard enough? Who knows? The party has already changed significantly under the stewardship it could be unrecognisable shortly. She came in with supposedly left wing surge, compared to some of Salmonds tartan tories, yet her party has become more right wing than before and more hawkish.

      You don’t know her plan any more than we do, but please promise me one thing, should she ever think of doing something like that don’t come here and try to make me believe it’s the one final push for independence. I’d hunt you down and beat the living daylights out of you if you did.

    52. A Person says:

      G.H. Graham-

      Totally agree with your comment. She is a total numpty.

    53. Big Jock says:

      Am I missing something! The yoons won the referendum.Are they complaining that they shouldn’t have won, or didn’t win by a big enough margin.

      Which is it?

    54. A Person says:

      -Big Jock-

      Exactly, maybe we should re-run the referendum right now to make sure we have a result free from Russian interference!

    55. Colin Alexander says:

      Robert graham

      SC is a Sturgeon cheerleader. SC doesn’t like me cos I outed Sturgeon and her SNP cronies as colonial administrators.

      Sturgeon’s 31 January 2020 surrender speech is probably the most shameful, ignominious, craven act of an SNP leader – ever.

      Covid-19 is the latest excuse for betrayal. One of many for kicking the indy can doon the road since 2014.

      ————————————————————————————————————————–

      Anyone think SNP campaigning for re-election as Britain’s colonial administrators in Scotland is cancelled? It’s already started.

      Already, Sturgeon and her woke guard is talking about Holyrood 2021. Already, we are being told: “Both votes SNP”.

      It’s going to be about Sturgeon and the SNP as the Scottish Raj running the Empire in Scotland for Boris and Purrin’ Betty: it won’t be about voting for Scotland’s freedom from British Imperial colonialism if Sturgeon and her man still control the SNP.

      But, if they can hold an election, they can hold an indyref. They could hold a plebiscite election on one policy only: Resiling The Treaty of Union so re-establishing a sovereign Scottish state. But, they won’t.

      Sturgeon’s SNP are devolutionists / colonialists, not freedom fighters.

    56. Kenny says:

      Stu, it is indeed concerning that this is how news is presented today (regardless of how you feel on Russia, on indy, whatever).

      One problem is that Twitter, which is rather like a child’s playground, is a place where all the politicians gather and spread these ideas. It is not like Parliament, where you have Hansard writing down what everyone said and you would not get away with just uttering a couple of sentences or a “meme”.

      Similarly, the SNP defence spokesman tweets a Guardian journalist. Now, the Guardian is 100% against indy. Not only that, the journalist is friends with the “external witnesses” — who all have careers based on having an axe to grind with Twitter and the narrative of “Russian interference”. This would not make them suitable for jury service, so how can they be relied upon in a parliamentary report?

      Finally, committees in parliament do not oversee public enquiries. They produce reports, but only from carefully selected witnesses, not a broad range. This is like only letting a certain section/group of the population vote on a matter: again, it skewers things.

      So what is worse of all, whatever side you take in this debate, is how NOTHING can be turned into an historical “fact”. It is all exactly like the time Winston Smith invented a story of a patriotic hero who NEVER existed in “1984”.

    57. HandandShrimp says:

      In a rare moment of weakness I had radio shortbread on this morning and heard Torcuil speak on this. I use the word speak loosely as I’m not sure what it was he was trying to say. It was more a word salad loosely tossed with a Salmond/SNP bad vinaigrette.

      The big story is obviously that Russia does attempt to influence things, I think the US and UK and others do too. Not really a surprise but what is a surprise is how little a handle our supposedly better together security resources have on such activity and how little the Tory leaders cared.

      It isn’t clear to me which way Russia leaned in 2014 and which way they tried to influence the outcome. Torcuil hedged his bets and said 400,000 votes was too much to swing anyway (although according to my maths 200,000 is the number). However, we do know that Russia favoured Brexit a great deal.

      This is a Brexit story but the rancid pro Brexit organs of the press will not want to discuss that.

    58. Big Jock says:

      Colin- Just a thought.

      Sturgeon has canned indi ref 2 for at least 3 years. Would Boris call her bluff and agree to a section 30 when she least expected it. Nothing in this world is impossible!

    59. Bob Mack says:

      @SC,

      Noticed that about Sheridan.

      The Herald leads lovingly with the story in its first four wodds.

      “Convicted perjuror Tommy Sheridan”

    60. Josef Ó Luain says:

      When their popularity ratings have been in the doldrums, Westminster governments have traditionally played the “enemy-at-the-gates” card. More often than not,the ‘enemy’ in question has been the ‘Russian Bear’. This remains as a serviceable ploy and can still produce the desired effect, if, for a diminishing number of people.

    61. A Person says:

      -Polly-

      Really? I have long thought that NS prefers being the darling of Guardian columnists and Twitter influencers who view her as more “responsible” than the Tories (as if that would be difficult). Very interesting. I believe Pierre Trudeau, prime minister of Canada for sixteen years, went into politics as a Quebec nationalist, so it has happened before.

      —Bob Mack-

      How disgusting. I bet they don’t do “convicted perjurer Chris Huhne for instance. Say what you like about Sheridan but he led the opposition to a supremely unjust tax and contributed mightily to the downfall of Maggie Thatcher. He’s achieved a hell of a lot more than most other politicians have. Also a very charming bloke!

    62. Margaret Wilson says:

      When I was a child the Russians were the big bogeymen at a time when America were expelling people charged with communism from their country. Nothing has changed in terms of rhetoric as far as Russia is concerned. I would suggest that Scotland’s enemy is closer to home and that the U.K. is being destroyed by crooks and comic singers at the heart of the British establishment. As for. MacDonald, he blocked me when I asked him how many countries Russia had invaded compared to America in the last 70 years. Ukraine he replied then blocked.

    63. Big Jock says:

      There is no concrete evidence of meddling in the indi ref. However, the way the truth works is. You plant a suggestion in the media without evidence. The media spin the story. Result there must have been meddling.

      I have now heard several Tories suggesting that there shouldn’t be a second indi ref until it can be guaranteed there is no Russian meddling. You honestly couldn’t make this up. How can you guarantee a third party won’t interfere with something until that something is actually underway! Even then you can’t stop a third party trying to influence a result. This is a false flag created to delay a referendum, and if Yes wins to invalidate the result.

      The dirty tricks have begun.

    64. Juteman says:

      I’m watching ‘Ghandi’ just now.
      What kind of actions can we, the average citizen, take to free ourselves?
      What are the obvious targets of British rule in Scotland?

    65. CameronB Brodie says:

      I wouldn’t mind Scotland remaining in the UK, if Brexit wasn’t happening and Westminster was willing and able to re-design Brexitanian democracy, to take account of the plurality of national identities ignored by Brexit. That will never happen though, as England is unlikely to give up the monarchy, and the Establishment are dug-in like ticks.

    66. Breastplate says:

      C’mon CBB,
      That’s like saying I wouldn’t mind living in a house of vampires as long as they promise not to drink all of my blood in one sitting.

    67. Breastplate says:

      Which strangely enough is where we’re at, to use an American phrase.

    68. Breastplate says:

      Yoonpires maybe?

    69. CameronB Brodie says:

      Breastplate 🙂

    70. Republicofscotland says:

      “CameronB Brodie says:
      22 July, 2020 at 3:10 pm
      I wouldn’t mind Scotland remaining in the UK, ”

      Get a grip of yourself man, 313 years of asset stripping brain draining and cannon fodder for London’s wars,has left the Scottish cringe strong in you.

      Westminster continued to apply the above even after we joined the EU.

    71. Breastplate says:

      Bob Mack,
      I would be happy to place my trust in Tommy Sheridan to genuinely work towards independence.

    72. Colin Alexander says:

      Big Jock

      The UK will never cooperate with Scotland’s escape, unless they thought Scotland will go ahead anyway.

      That was the situation under Salmond. His big mistake was to go the s30 route instead of exercising sovereignty via self-determination.

      He under-estimated the treachery of the UK politicians. He has learned how treacherous they can be, nationally and personally.

    73. Bob Mack says:

      @Breastplate,

      As would I.

    74. CameronB Brodie says:

      Republicofscotland
      There was a mahoosive qualifier that is never likely to transpire. I was thinking speculatively, not scientifically, or with embodied, reflexive, emotional reasoned, self-interest. 🙂

      Social Epistemology
      A Journal of Knowledge, Culture and Policy Volume 32, 2018 – Issue 2
      Systematic Epistemic Rights Violations in the Media: A Brexit Case Study

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02691728.2018.1440022

    75. CameronB Brodie says:

      sorry….emotionaly reasoned , self-interest.

      British Politics (2020)
      Political alienation and referendums: how political alienation was related to support for Brexit

      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41293-020-00134-8

    76. ahundredthidiot says:

      that fat c*nt Barosso defo took a kick-back payment.

      the rest of ’em are just C*nts…..even michaels bitch.

      Unionists – the very bastards of creation.

    77. schrodingers cat says:

      @polly
      you’re gonna hunt me down…………ha ha ha ha ha

      i take it when nicola launches the indy campaign you wont dare show your face here again.

      meanwhile in the real world

      “SENIOR UK Government figures have “fears” about the First Minister’s frequent televised Covid-19 briefings, according to reports.

      As it emerged the Prime Minister had told his Cabinet ministers to visit Scotland more often in efforts to win over voters who are increasingly supportive of independence and the SNP, there were also reports that senior Tory figures are unhappy with Scottish Government briefings airing on the BBC several times a week long after Downing Street’s often conferences ended.”

      nicola is playing a blinder. looking forward to the next opinion poll 🙂

    78. CameronB Brodie says:

      If you know a bit about epistemic injustice, you can understand that Scotland and Scottish culture are victims of systematic “discursive abuse”.

      International Journal of Philosophical Studies, 2020
      The Agent in Pain: Alienation and Discursive Abuse

      ABSTRACT
      My aim in this paper is to draw attention to a currently underdeveloped notion of pain and alienation, in order to sketch an account of the harms of ‘discursive abuse’. This form of abuse comprises systemic practices of violating a person’s vulnerable integrity as a knowing agent. Discursive abuse results in, what I would like to call, ‘agential alienation’.

      This particular genus of alienation, whose broad conceptual origins lie in the respective works of Hegel and the early Marx, involves an agent being robbed of their self-conception as a rational inquirer and participant in a deliberative public sphere. Such alienation causes a particular kind of pain for an agent that often has harrowing material effects.

      KEYWORDS:
      Epistemic oppression, epistemic injustice, vulnerability, recognition, pain, alienation

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09672559.2020.1784534

    79. Willie says:

      London, a city where any murderous drug dealer, or failed state despot can launder their ill gotten gains.

      Take Prince Andrew. The establishment spooks know exactly what this guy was up to, what he did, who he did it with and where. They know exactly who his chums were. Jeffrey Epstein May have been one, or Ghislaine Maxwell another, but there were many more unsavoury characters, who fortunes came from the blood of innocents running down the streets.

      Yes London, the city of criminality, linked to huge offshore network of secretive tax havens. Prostitution, child trafficking, drug murders, modern slavery, they take it all.

      And Prince Paedo, he’s still Betty’s favourite son, and she does have the biggest mansion in town.

    80. callmedave says:

      Today:Corona figures

      Scotland………today…….00…….Total…2491…BBC
      Wales…………today…….01…….Total…1548…BBC
      N. Ireland…….today…….00…….Total….556…BBC
      England……….today……*11 sun…Total.^40906..^UKGov
      ==========================================================
      UK……………today……79……..Total..45501…UKGov

    81. Breastplate says:

      Colin Alexander,
      I believe Alex Salmond was being pragmatic at the time and successfully put the decision of self determination in our own hands, however having said that I don’t believe that he set a precedence in doing so and wouldn’t now be grovelling for a Section 30.
      Of course we may never know but Alex was known for his combative nature and I think he would have revelled in the chance to have a barney with Boris.

      Alex in my opinion wouldn’t have shortchanged the Scottish People as he always acknowledged those who battled for independence before him and referred to himself as standing on the shoulders of giants.
      The SNP leadership is standing on those shoulders and it seems to me that instead of continuing the work of their predecessors they are pissing all over those very shoulders.

    82. John Jones says:

      Beaker
      Why would anyone ask the Ukrainians about Russia?
      Europe’s leading Nazis from before, during and after W.W.2 to the present day.
      Just look at what they are celebrating at the moment, the slaughter of women and children, the concentration camps in their country.
      Don’t even go to the Russian take over of the Crimea after a referendum with an overwelming majority to REJOIN Russia after it was handed over to Ukraine from some drunken president,can’t remember his name.
      Will this happen to Scotland if we ever in the far future get Indy, some SNP leader hand us back?

    83. Republicofscotland says:

      “There was a mahoosive qualifier that is never likely to transpire. I was thinking speculatively”

      Okay Cameron, point taken, speculatively speaking can you give me one, just one really good reason why Scotland should remain in the UK, that Scotland could not achieve itself as a independent nation, a seat on the UNSC aside?

      Now compare your thoughts on that, with what we can achieve tied to this horrible union right.

    84. It’s got to the stage now if you tell the truth you are a spy an enemy of the state Westminster and the media regard the truth as a threat and any one who speaks it also I think the SNP are finished they have lost all people’s trust a new party with A.S. And T.S. C.M. And of course S.C will sweep the board real fighters

    85. Breastplate says:

      Blair Paterson,
      Don’t forget JC.
      Not that one, the other one.

    86. Andrew F says:

      When an odious person of Jewish heritage uses money to influence, it is absolutely unacceptable to attribute that action to “The Jews”, or even “a Jew”. In fact it is absolutely unacceptable to even mention that it happened, except maybe in the most abstract way.

      If an odious person of Russian heritage uses money to influence, it is not only acceptable, but compulsory to attribute that action to “The Russians”.

      Hopefully everyone has seen it, but if not – look up: “Luke Harding Aaron Mate Collusion interview” – absolutely hilarious demolition of Harding as a fraud when he couldn’t point to a single fact to support the book (“Collusion”) he authored and was promoting. In frustration Harding accuses Mate of being “a collusion rejectionist”.

      But on a more serious note….

      “Free Milk”??? Really? I’d bet more people fell for ‘The Vow’ than bought into that.

    87. Beaker says:

      @Breastplate says:
      22 July, 2020 at 12:39 pm
      “As Stu pointed out, the foreign country that constantly interferes in Scottish politics is England not Russia. That England recruits other foreign countries to help just rubs salt into the wound.
      There is absolutely no reason for your Russophobia whatsoever when it comes to Scottish independence.”

      I never said that Russia was the main interference during 2014. But Russia does what it wants. Scotland is not some special place for them. Discord suits them.

      But since you appear to think that Russia is a beacon of democracy we’ll leave it at that.

    88. Casabian says:

      Juteman says: 3:10 pm

      “I’m watching ‘Ghandi’ just now.
      What kind of actions can we, the average citizen, take to free ourselves?”

      “What are the obvious targets of British rule in Scotland?”

      How about Bute House Juteman?

      The biggest Unionist in Scotland resides there.

    89. Sensibledave says:

      MorvenM 1:37 pm
      “…as if England ever needed any help to not win a World Cup.”

      “Ouch! That’ll sting. I confidently expect Nicola and Humza to announce that not supporting England in the World Cup is anti-English racism.?”

      Haha! It doesn’t sting at all! …Not when it comes from folk who’s country never get to the finals of the European Championship … let alone the World Cup! Scottish football supporters will look back at 2020 as the “golden year” (the year when they lost the fewest games!!!!)

    90. Ottomanboi says:

      “I wouldn’t mind Scotland remaining in the UK…”
      Not a comment you’d expect to find on this site…even as a wild flight of imagination or as irony for that matter.
      O the times!

    91. Juteman says:

      @Casabian.
      Awa back under yir bridge.

    92. Breastplate says:

      Beaker,
      I don’t think Russia is a beacon of democracy, I’m merely stating that is not where our focus should be and to be perfectly blunt, Russia is not our enemy, perhaps you think differently. That’s ok if you do, I don’t need you to think the same way as me.

    93. Casabian says:

      Juteman

      Just stating facts my dear man.

      There is no bigger Unionist in Scotland right now than Nicola Sturgeon.

    94. Beaker says:

      @John Jones says:
      22 July, 2020 at 4:16 pm
      “Why would anyone ask the Ukrainians about Russia?
      Europe’s leading Nazis from before, during and after W.W.2 to the present day.”

      Do you know about Germany’s policy for the Ukraine during WW2? There were nazis recruited from many European countries during WW2, including Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Spain, France and Holland to name a few.

      Don’t tar a whole nation based on the actions of a relatively few individuals.

    95. Big Jock says:

      Since 2014 everything has just got Shiter.

      Just an observation.

    96. Clapper57 says:

      Keir Starmer’s spokesman says Nicola Sturgeon should make a public statement condeming Alex Salmond for hosting a show on Russia Today………

      Can someone shoot me please cause I think I am truly at breaking point……..

      They shoot wild horses don’t they ?

      Who will end our misery ?

    97. schrodingers cat says:

      seen on twitter, i dont know if these characters will show up in wordpress though

      ????S J???S?? ?S ? P??? ?????

    98. schrodingers cat says:

      mmm
      didnt work soz

    99. CameronB Brodie says:

      Republicofscotland
      I can’t think of any reason other that to avoid disruption, but given the yoonyaw wasn’t working for Scotland, that argument fails. Then there’s the Brexit elephant that simply can’t be overlooked, due to the threat it poses to our civic society. Though some are trying their best to ignore the long-term peril, and do not appear prepared to defend our national identity from expansionist English nationalism.

      I was being speculative in the broadest sense possible, honest. 🙂

      The implications of Brexit for dimensions of belonging among British-born white residents in England
      https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/media/2873/download

    100. John H. says:

      Somebody should tell Keir Starmer that Alex Salmond is not a member of the SNP.

    101. Breastplate says:

      Sensibledave,
      Yes, Scotland is rubbish at football in international tournaments but amusingly so is England.
      I say amusingly because as the old saying goes ‘misery loves company’.

    102. stuart mctavish says:

      @clapper57
      Not sure about that.
      A public statement condemning Starmer’s role in the incarceration of Assange would be nice though.

    103. Breastplate says:

      Stuart McTavish,
      Can’t disagree with that.

    104. liz says:

      Re the throw away comment from NS about being PM.
      She’s in her element now, she supported Wishart when he wanted to become speaker.

      I’m not saying she was never for indy but I do believe she has lost her nerve and will never deliver.
      There are many reasons why this could be.
      She wants to be liked, Robin McAlpine said that in one of his articles ages ago.

      She now thinks she’s popular UK wide, but that’s only because the media are supporting her at the moment.
      If she ever went for the PM job, they would turn against IMO.

      What now, who knows, I’m still waiting for Joanna Cherry or Alex S to have some input.

      I also see the SG have redacted so much stuff re the investigation, did we ever think otherwise.

      Good news my OH & my brother will vote ISP on the list if we ever get a Holyrood election.

    105. Casabian says:

      The english are doing what the Romans done many centuries ago.

      The Romans would make the Tribal leaders an offer they couldn’t refuse.

      Money, homes, personal protection, transport.

      As long as the Tribal leader agreed to capitulate.

      The English are the modern day Romans and the Tribal leader is Nicola Sturgeon.

      If you find it hard to believe, then stop for a second and take a look around you, you will see a Scotland who has totally surrendered, without a drop of blood being spilt.

    106. Casabian says:

      The Sturgeon supporters on this site remind me of No Voters in 2014.

      I just couldn’t understand what they didn’t see.

      Why didn’t they see that Independence was the obvious choice, yet they still didn’t “get it”.

      The Sturgeonistas of Wings seem to have the same blind spot that those No Voters had in 2014.

    107. Republicofscotland says:

      Clapper57@ 4.41pm.

      The millionaire Knight of the Realm and leader of the Labour party Sir Keir Starmer is urging the British government to review RT’s, UK licence. I think we can all see what’s coming next.

    108. Me Bungo Pony says:

      Support for THE party of independence at 55%; support for independence at 54%; the SNP leader the most trusted politician in the country; Scottish unionists admitting independence is all but inevitable; the Tory PM in a scrabble to visit Scotland to try and bolster the Union …..

      ….. and what do the malcontents cry? “The SNP have failed”; “Sturgeon is a Unionist”; “we’ve never been further from independence”; “down with the SNP” etc, etc. Absolutely bonkers. The main threat to achieving independence now is the destructive negativity of the malcontents themselves.

    109. Dan says:

      Big Jock says: at 4:41 pm

      Since 2014 everything has just got Shiter.

      Aye Big Jock, but “Shiter Thegither” wouldn’t have marketed the Union in such a positive light.
      So they just went with “Better Together”, even though anyone with a brain that had more awareness than a tin of cold spam knew it would be a perpetual shitfest.

    110. Juteman says:

      @Casabian.
      “The English are the modern day Romans and the Tribal leader is Nicola Sturgeon.”
      If you were Scottish, you would know the Romans never conquered Scotland.
      Awa back under yir bridge.

    111. Breastplate says:

      Ok Bungo pony,
      You’ve won me over, so now I’m in the in crowd you’ll be able to divulge when our independence will be arriving?

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      “If you were Scottish, you would know the Romans never conquered Scotland.”

      The epistemic injustice of it. 🙂

      Social Epistemology
      A Journal of Knowledge, Culture and Policy Volume 26, 2012 – Issue 2: Epistemic Injustice
      The Politics of Intellectual Self-trust

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02691728.2011.652215

    113. Damn Rebel B*tch says:

      There has been ‘incredible open source commentary’ suggesting that girls have a ‘higher chance’ of getting pregnant than boys’….

    114. schrodingers cat says:

      @MBP

      hear hear

    115. Confused says:

      someone should do a welsh “homage” titled

      ITS SHITE BEING BRITISH

      choose covid
      choose herd immunity
      choose the highest death rate in europe
      choose tv presenters for politicians
      choose the oxford union as your political model
      choose exorbitant nuclear megadeath for which you do not even have the launch codes
      choose all for me but nought for thee
      etc etc

      – you could put several hundred of these down, but pick the best dozen

      AND WE WERENT COLOMISED BY WANKERS – BECAUSE WE ARE THE WANKERS

      – the worst in history
      graphics of fat bellied footy yobs shouting ING- GUR- LAND …

      I chose not to choose the UNION

      I chose INDY

      needs work.

      But stick something like that on a billboard, see what happens.

      – “colomised” is a new word of mine – it means colonised and sodomised; which seems oddly appropriate

    116. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not just having a laugh, this stuff is of vital significance to all our futures.

      Social Epistemology
      A Journal of Knowledge, Culture and Policy Volume 30, 2016 – Issue 5-6
      Hermeneutical Injustice: Blood-sports and the English Defence League

      Abstract
      Miranda Fricker identifies a form of injustice she calls “hermeneutical injustice”. She argues that each culture has a stock of shared meanings that its members can use to describe their experience.

      Cultures are made up of different social groups, with uneven relations of power between them. In some cases, a culture’s shared meanings will reflect the experiences of more powerful groups, and be a poor fit for the experiences of less powerful members, who are subsequently disadvantaged. This is what Fricker calls “hermeneutical injustice”.

      Here, I argue that her account faces a serious difficulty: it relies on two intuitions about the source of hermeneutical injustice that are in tension with one another, and which cannot be made consistent within her framework. Consequently, her account is both too restrictive (it fails to accommodate cases we think it should) and too permissive (it classifies cases as hermeneutical injustices that we think it should not).

      Keywords:
      Hermeneutical Injustice, Fricker, Epistemic Injustice

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02691728.2016.1172363

    117. Dan says:

      Ahh, good timing Me Bungo Pony at 5.15pm
      I hope that’s not you calling the UK a “country”.

      You never did respond to my last post to you on the reason why we find ourselves at this 54% figure you seem so eager to attribute to the SNP and Ms Sturgeon.

      I see s. cat like your post but they expressed previously that they don’t care how that figure is reached, which seems an odd view to hold because comprehending why 54% feel the way they do would be extremely useful in developing a campaign strategy to increase the figure…

    118. Casabian says:

      Juteman

      I never mentioned Scotland.

      I said it was a tactic the Romans used to buy off the Tribal leaders to keep them sweet.

      The same way the English have bought off Sturgeon.

      If you were Scottish you would have known that Juteman.

    119. David R says:

      They all do seem rather pleased to have found another stick to beat Mr Salmond with. Does highlight the arrogance of our political masters and mistresses that they expect Mr Salmond to tug his forelock and do what they demand.

    120. Breastplate says:

      SC,
      I understand that you would like a plebiscite in 2021 which is probably the best we can hope for at this juncture, when do you think we would need to be told at the latest about this so we can prepare the ground?

    121. Casabian says:

      Me Bungo Pony

      Obviously a regular Sturgeonista who has gone all shy on us.

      Even the rabid Sturgeonites are too embarrassed to even put their own name against supporting her.

      So they go all,,,, undercover.

      Probably that lunatic robbo,, or that other lunatic,,the Cat.

    122. Dan says:

      Does anyone know when The Malcontents new album “Cunning Plan” is being released?
      I hope tae fuck they support The Strongbow Soaked AUOB Radicals on tour coz it would be a beltin’ gig.
      Maybe Craig Murray can get them both to attend Doune The Rabbit Hole once the covid gets tae. 🙂

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      David R
      That’s just the way Britain’s class-bound politics works.

      Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society, Volume 111, Issue 3_pt_3, 1 October 2011, Pages 479–486
      A Critique of Hermeneutical Injustice

      Abstract
      Recent work at the junction of epistemology and political theory focuses on the notion of epistemic injustice, the injustice of being wronged as a knower. Miranda Fricker (2007) identifies two kinds of epistemic injustice.

      I focus here on hermeneutical injustice in an attempt to identify a difficulty for Fricker’s account. In particular, I consider the significance of background social conditions and suggest that an epistemic injustice should not rely on other forms of disadvantage to achieve its status as an injustice.

      Thus reformulated, the notion of epistemic injustice can help us to achieve an even deeper understanding of the relationship between knowledge and privilege.

      https://academic.oup.com/aristotelian/article-abstract/111/3_pt_3/479/1794815?redirectedFrom=PDF

    124. Casabian says:

      I think we can add Juteman to the ever decreasing list of Sturgeonistas.

      Their band does grow ever shorter

    125. schrodingers cat says:

      @breastplate

      if it were me, id keep an eye on the polls (hint, support will increase for yes on jan 1st) I’d wait for the campaign to launch and the tories publish their manifesto, ie no indyref2, no independence etc, then i would publish the snp’s Yes Independence.

      dont give them an excuse to back out of the election, wait till they’re commited

      polls do vary, but there is a confidence point (%)where the snp will commit to it.

      i was speaking with some highhied yins in the snp mid week, they all answered my proposal with the same argument, “ach well you see polls, they can change etc, we canny take the voters fur granted etc.”

      it sounded like they were all reading from the same script 🙂

      good. nicola will continue with the daily virus update for as long as possible, mainly cos it winds up tories and is winning yes converts.

      sure, its pissing off wingers, but hey, so what. for all their hubris, when the die is finaly cast, they will vote snp in the constituency vote.

      job done

    126. Casabian says:

      One day you mad mental Sturgeon supporters will have your own Lightbulb moment.

      And you will cry:

      “By God I get it, I now see why all those thousands of Indy supporters gave up on Sturgeon”.

      And God said, “Let there be light, and there was light”.

      Honest,,,it disnae hurt.

    127. Breastplate says:

      SC, I’ve got to go but I would like to continue this later if that’s ok.

    128. Casabian says:

      Johnson going to contaminate our hallowed ground tomorrow.

      The bastard shouldn’t be allowed out of his car.

      I hope a warm Scottish welcome is planned for the bastard who told us last week that there is no such thing as a Scottish Border.

    129. Kenny says:

      What is concerning is the effect this will all have on democracy: in Scotland, in the rUK, in the USA.

      Any election can have doubt cast over it now (based on absolutely any excuse: Stu showed how ridiculous and non-existent are the claims surrounding indyref1).

      The people perpetrating this scam are actually committing a very serious crime against the constitution. They are attacking the very foundations of our democracy.

      [As I understand, it all began really as a damage limitation excercise after Hillary spectacularly lost to a dreadful person and completely inexperienced “politician” – after cheating the nomination herself, of course.]

      What is bad in our case is that the SNP not just have the cringe (none ever speak out for Scotland), but a double case. They LOST indyref1, then let certain circles attack indyref1 as a case of Russian interference (how come we did not get higher than 45% after being over 50% a week before the vote?) and they lie down and agree with this beating!! The men of 1707 had more integrity (they later tried to vote down the Union Treaty at Westminster and only lost by four votes).

      We really need a constitutional court in the UK. Because those who are creating this myth of Russian interference (without being able to provide ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL!) are actually attacking and undermingour democracy.

      I am surprised that no senior judges or constitutional experts are not speaking out on this matter.

    130. Breastplate says:

      Before I go SC,
      Does having a plebiscite, for instance, entirely dependent on what the polls say?
      If so and the polls are favourable does having a plebiscite then have to be sanctioned by Boris?
      There’s more but later.

    131. schrodingers cat says:

      providing bojo doesnt shut down holyrood and the unionists dont storm out then the election will go ahead.

      the previous victories of the snp have all been less than 50% and have been victories on manifestos demanding indyref2. since bojo has and will refuse a s30, it is fairly pointless going down this route.

      however, we can claim that a 50%+ vote in the election on a mandate for indy supersedes the 2014 result.

      QED

    132. schrodingers cat says:

      @breastplate

      one last point, AUOB have reviewed the covid exit plan and have calculated when they can hold another march.

      i believe there might be a possibility to end the current holyrood session and call an early holyrood election.

      im not 100% clear on if or whether this can actually be done, or indeed it is wise, perhaps its better the folk experience the effects of brext first hand on jan 1st when medication and food supplies start to run out ?

    133. Casabian says:

      I wonder if Johnson will head straight for Little England (Moray) tomorrow.

      There are more Englishmen in Moray than there is in London.

      You smell the place before you see it.

    134. schrodingers cat says:

      Cabasian says:
      One day you mad mental Sturgeon supporters will have your own Lightbulb moment.

      ——————–
      One day you mad mental Sturgeon haters will have your own Lightbulb moment, probably when you wake up and find yer only 2 old men and a dug shivering in a phone box

    135. Andy Ellis says:

      @SC

      Or alternatively the Sturgeonista ultras will be sitting here in 2039 assuring us that just one more mandate will ensure the britnats allow us to hold #indyref2?

      Nary a one of the tub thumping, hard of thinking party loyalists have explained how the yoons will be “forced” to cave in to our demands this side of a “real” generation from 2014.

      We’ll wait….

    136. msean says:

      Is this the kind of thing Tories used to taunt Labour with? Turns out it was actually the Tories all along.

      It would seem to me ,also,that people still automatically think,myself included,that Russia equals communism/socialism etc. They learned capitalism very well in the 1990’s.

      They know what money can buy right enough.

    137. Big Jock says:

      Bungo- it’s no good having 54% support for independence , if your leader doesn’t want it.

      It’s a bit like being a one legged man in an arse kicking competition. We have as much chance of winning independence as he has of kicking an arse. Our leader is in the competition, but everyone knows she has lost before it started.

      The higher SNP support gets the lower our chance of Nicola delivering. Her interest in independence diminishes relative to SNP success. She doesn’t want to upset those who need upset, and she loves adulation.

      But alas blind faith against empirical evidence always trumps for zealots.

    138. mike cassidy says:

      Alex Salmond dealing with the Russian Question in 2014.

      Bonus ball is that its Ruth Davidson who gets a skelped erse

      https://twitter.com/kerrbrookekai

    139. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Big Jock

      Interesting isn’t it…? Sturgeonistas like Bungo and SC already laying the groundwork for blaming “the malcontents” for the failure of the party to grow a pair and deliver indy, whilst remaining safely anonymous as they tout their ultra-loyalist snake oil to the masses.

      I wonder if these well connected folk like SC, who claim to talk to SNP high heid yins, ever actually ask them any difficult questions…?

      Or is it more a case of being so intellectually aligned (or just lacking any intellectual curiosity…?) that their atavistic, knee-jerk response is to reply “how high?” when asked to jump?

    140. callmedave says:

      Scotland amongst the least infected and with the lowest death rate in the world

      https://archive.is/tZQp4

    141. schrodingers cat says:

      @andy

      whatever, regardless, the next holyrood election will be seen as a plebiscite, so relax max, tranquil bill, enjoy yer summer holybobs 🙂

    142. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Honest,,,it disnae hurt.”

      @Casabian 5.56: I see you share the three-comma tic of Jackie/Millennium who was hunted from here for abusive behaviour.

      Also: “There are more Englishmen in Moray than there is (sic) in London.
      You smell the place before you see it.” seems in character too.

      I think if you were standing on Brighton Pier I’d be claiming my £10…..

    143. Andy Ellis says:

      @SC

      Well no….it’ll only be seen (and more importantly accepted by the international community) as a plebiscite if the pro-indy parties aiming for a majority in such an election specifically MAKE it a plebiscite.

      Gaining 60% of the vote will achieve nothing if the toom tabards in the SNP leadership remain wedded to the “Gold Standard” referendum. I’d like to think they had a cunning plan, or were likely to grow a pair in the next nine months, but nothing in the past 5 years suggests that’s at all likely does it?

      I’m not about to give my list vote to a devolutionist party. I would probably vote for Joanna Cherry if she’s the candidate for my constituency, but if it’s Robertson or some other bland gradualist I may just have to spoil my vote.

    144. schrodingers cat says:

      @andy

      spoil yer vote, aye you do that son

    145. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Big Jock (6:38)
      “But alas blind faith against empirical evidence always trumps for zealots”.

      Do tell what this “empirical evidence” is. All we’ve got on this site are rants, whines, and malicious assumptions. I’ll go with the “empirical evidence” of the momentum that has been building for some time now that has seen Independence and the SNP become the majority choice of Scots under Sturgeon’s leadership. It’s certainly not because of the “Malcontents and their Cunning Plan” (sic – Dan. That album is unlikely to trouble the charts).

    146. Casabian says:

      Me Bungo Pony

      You’re not that queen of all Sturgeon supporters, Capella are you?

      She popped down,,,,and you popped up.

    147. James F. McIntosh says:

      If there is a cover up in this gov. enquiry about the Salmond situation then I think that would be another reason to believe that the current Scottish gov. have been under the control of westminster and their civil servants.

    148. Casabian says:

      SNP slogan for 2021 Holyrood elections:

      “Just One More Push,,,Honest!”

    149. North chiel says:

      “ Casablanca says @ 0618 pm “ Bojo up North to boost the morale of his frontline troops facing imminent invasion from the “ dreaded Ruskies ” ? Perhaps the local cooncil could arrange a “ Cultural twinning arrangement “ with Moscow ( in Ayrshire) ??

    150. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      mike cassidy 6:43

      Thanks for that Mike I forgot that one. Her mouth was shut.

      Say what you like about Mr Salmond there are no politicians in Europe who are even close.

      Mr Salmond does it with ease time and time again, I really miss his presence at Holyrood.

    151. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bungo fuckwit says;

      ‘All we’ve got on this site are rants, whines, and malicious assumptions’

      jog on then brit

    152. callmedave says:

      O/T
      Fitba:

      Queens eleven V Motherwell. Just kicking off

      http://www.hesgoal.com/news/64585/Rangers_vs_Motherwell.html

    153. liz says:

      @callmedave and yet NS has extended phase 3 until the virus is at low level!
      She’s milking this for as long as it takes.

    154. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @ahundredthidiot (7:52)

      There needs to be some people on these threads offering sanity to the malcontents.

      The epithet “brit” is obviously baseless, however, the evidence of the anti-SNP bile being spouted on this site would lead those of a conspiratorial bent to question the motives of its perpetrators.

    155. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Liz (8:04)

      It would never occur to you that the Scottish govt just wants to avoid unnecessary deaths and a second spike? Or are you backing Boris’s more cavalier attutude to exiting lockdown? I refer you back to the second paragraph of my last post.

    156. Big Jock says:

      Bungo. Empirical evidence for you.

      4 election wins, 4 majorities. 6 years of power. No referendum.

      But we should give her one last chance to let us down!

    157. Clapper57 says:

      @ Me @ 4.41pm

      BTW in some places they DO shoot “wild” horses but I really meant to say ” They shoot Horses don’t they ? (not sure where the “wild” part came from) obvs I was meaning this in reference to the film of that name ( but made a hash of it).

      Not even sure why I am bothering to add this correction because I am so f**king sick of it all …….

      BTW if anyone is thinking of starting up a business offering soundproof rooms for people to be able to go and scream their f**king heads off in…now would be the time as sure would get plenty customers…also if so can I book a room in advance….for every week from now until next Indy Ref…pretty please…..if not I may do it myself….start a business I mean…oh and obvs use the facilities too.

    158. Big Jock says:

      I think Nicola has spent the years since May said: ” Now is not the time”. Looking for excuses not to talk about or progress independence.

      That’s why the last 3 years have been such a waste. Stopping England leaving Europe was the biggest distraction she could find. I remember being raging when she offered May a watered down Brexit. I thought it was outrageous that Nicola was ignoring that Scotland voted to remain a full member.

      Most of all I was dismayed at her trying to save England. She was technically undermining what the English voted for.

      She should have concentrated on what Scotland voted for. The Covid crisis has bought Nicola more time. But soon Covid will be a problem, but not a crisis.

      Then she will have to fill that vacuum. Well we already know she has the next distraction lined up. The financial meltdown will be her focus. That my friends allows her another 5 year term at Holyrood. She has it all stitched up.

      We should be really angry with her. I believe most yessers are slow boiling pots. We are the ones seeing the truth at the moment. But believe me she hasn’t seen nothing yet.

    159. bscotfree says:

      The SNP wants independence? It seems so contradictory that the party I’ve voted for all my life would betray this core purpose.

      However the past few years have demonstrated that this is exactly what the FM and Co. have done. As Robin McAlpine factually stated on Source recently she can’t conceal it any longer. She has run out of road and the carefully spun self image is looking thinner day by day. I recognise that there are still many SNP supporters who cannot accept this fact, but I think these folk will eventually have to confront this reality and they are going to be very disappointed.

      I will not vote for the SNP again unless the FM is replaced by a genuine leader. Giving my vote to a dishonest party will not help achieve independence. The SNP have become politically like new Labour: promises but no follow through. There are some genuinely good politicians in the SNP but they need to be brave and speak up as it is obvious the party has totally lost its way.

      Is the FM personally compromised or is it purely self-serving career ambition? I guess it is both.

      She is clearly not prepared to take action to protect Scotland from a shambolic immoral UK (English) government and therefore we are currently defenseless against westminster power. Goodbye Holyrood, scottish national health service and much else.

      She has utilised the Covid problem to maximise her own tv public profile. I believe Jeanne Freeman as health minister is more than able to handle Covid briefings.

      The FM is an accomplished talker and has seemingly convinced many independence voters that she is a great leader. To my mind she dosen’t appear to have an original idea in her head and has produced no vision or practical strategy for Scotland’s future. Its a conundrum that this is the person leading the SNP.

      She is determined to continue as FM for another term. Her past public support for Hilary Clinton and her self association with the Borgen TV series indicates to me that she is a very ambitious person with a swelled ego, concealed by a false humility. The careful cultivation of her image continues in the nonsense of her continually tweeting the book she is currently reading. I suspect the truth is that her behaviour is fully self-serving hence her refusal to take any action she perceives as any kind of risk to her personal career. If you have no courage you can’t be a leader.

      There is also the problem of Peter Murrell, the FM’s husband. It is not an acceptable arrangement that he is in post. Power in the SNP appears to be concentrated in the hands of the FM, her husband and their favourites ie. Alyn Smith et al. The evidence shows that if you are part of this group you can do no wrong and are outwith party disciplinary measures. If you are not in that group you can be ignored, insulted, smeared and cast out.

      This brings me to the false accusations against the former First Minister Alex Salmond. He is the person who led the SNP to their current prominance. He has yet to publicise his evidence but I personally have no doubt that he was falsely accused for political reasons. Thankfully a jury saw through the lies, nevertheless it was a despicable thing to do to anybody and is unforgivable in my book.

      We are told politicians care about their legacy. Tony Blair destroyed his when he decided to join the US illegal Iraq war. He has become very rich, however every time I see him pop up I think he looks tormented by conscience. The FM perhaps aims to have a proud legacy but at this point in time, like Blair, she has destroyed her chances in so far as she has knowingly misled and duped all of us who voted for the SNP for independence.

      In short I believe the FM is simply a disgrace.

    160. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Big Jock (8:21)

      How many majorities?? Three of those elections were WM so no possibility of a majority there. The other was a Holyrood election that saw the SNP lose its majority, despite increasing its vote share, because of a vote splitting exercise that saw them lose List seats.

      Sturgeon has always said she would go for a referendum when we could be sure of winning it. In each of those elections the SNP got less than 50% of the vote and polls on independence round those elections showed support in the low to mid 40%s. They were stats (emperical evidence even) that would only guarantee an uphill struggle to win a referendum.

      Only now is momentum starting to move decisively in our direction. Ask the Quebecois what happens if you go too soon.

    161. Davie Oga says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      22 July, 2020 at 6:55 pm
      @andy

      “whatever, regardless, the next holyrood election will be seen as a plebiscite, so relax max, tranquil bill, enjoy yer summer holybobs”

      Not a chance. The SNP will fight the election on asking again for a referendum in order not to spook their soft unionist/devolution voters. Going hard for independence would put their majority at risk.

      Independence will require risk taking, personal sacrifice, and a ruthless determination to see it through in the face of belligerent, aggressive opposition.

      Nothing that has happened over the past six years suggests the SNP’s leadership possesses these qualities. Nothing.

      They pissed Scottish sovereignty down the river with Brexit and parked independence in favour of weido minority causes, and consolidating their power.

      When devolution was being effectively shredded the FM spent her time tweeting wedding and birthday pictures and doing puff pieces in the media.

      The independence movement is leaderless.

      Fortunately, nature abhors a power vacuum.

    162. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @bscotfree (8:44)

      Amid the general madness, one thing sticks out and rings the sanity alarm bells …. “her self association with the Borgen TV series indicates to me that she is a very ambitious person with a swelled ego, concealed by a false humility”. Really??? I mean …. really???

      To quote myself; “the evidence of the anti-SNP bile being spouted on this site would lead those of a conspiratorial bent to question the motives of its perpetrators”.

    163. Big Jock says:

      Death me Bungo, where to start.

      The FM told May she was having a referendum before we left the EU. That was supposed to be autumn 18! She never mentioned when the polls were at 60%. That was dreamed up later on when May didn’t budge.

      I would also add that at 54% or 65% there is never a guarantee of winning. The polls might be taken a year before the vote! Things change ,minds change Covid happens! That argument is for the birds, it’s utter crap.

      If the WM wins don’t count? Why did Nicola state that indi ref 2 would be front and center in GE Dec 19? If WM means nothing, why do the SNP stand in it. Why would we vote. When did winning all the seats at WM become window dressing. Surely a mandate is a mandate with the will of a true leader.

      I am beginning to think you and others are PR trolls for the SNP. You spout verbatim the party line!

    164. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bungo the Rupert says;

      ‘To quote myself’

      oh,son, they were right – you’re officer material right enough.

      now, take your pims and f

    165. Polly says:

      @A Person says: Really?

      No, not really, but after next year we’re really sitting ducks, movement of any consequence will be limited. Who knows if any wheeze will surface since not much is on the horizon so far and if Boris remains implacable where do we go then? Yes, I agree Sturgeon is more comfortable being the darling of the media and abhors bad press, but is she protecting independence or protecting her own reputation. I didn’t know that about Trudeau but the more general point was that hitting a brick wall means parties can and do change, there is prior evidence of that aplenty. What will happen, who knows, except maybe Stuart if he puts his fortune teller hat on :).

    166. Davie Oga says:

      “I am beginning to think you and others are PR trolls for the SNP. You spout verbatim the party line!”

      That’s it exactly. It’s obvious. Normal people have opinions of their own. They may as well be posting from central office.

      My personal favourite is when they
      deny a formal request was made for a Sec 30 despite the letter being published by Scotgov and a majority vote in the Scottish. Ignored, and they did nothing.

      Fucking mandate whores

    167. Bob Mack says:

      @Big Jock,

      Very accurate. I think MBP and others are involved with the party.

      I would not out it past the party to send disrupters just as the Unionists do, because of all the talk on Wings of forming a rival party to offer voters. It is a threat.

    168. Rm says:

      I think the SNP government are resigned to being a devolved overseer bunch of politicians who are not interested in ending the union, probably the opposite they want to strengthen it, the way they were fighting for england to stay in Europe, time for them to step aside for a new vibrant patriotic party which will push for ending the union and will stand up for Scotland no matter what’s thrown at us, something has to happen shortly.

    169. @callmedave,

      Jean Freeman deserves some sort of accolade, probably saved thousands of lives,

      she will never receive the recognition or thanks she deserves from the gutter BBC/Scottish press,

      if we hadn`t been shackled to Westminster and the British Nationalists in Scotland wanting to ape Cummings Herd Death scenario we could have saved countless other lives.

    170. Big Jock says:

      Two things have happened in the last 5 months, which gave the game away.

      Firstly the eagerness of Nicola to tell the world that indi ref 2 was being shelved. She did it a few days after the lockdown! She didn’t have to do that, but she made sure she did.

      Then the infamous interview where she said , Indy ref 2 will have to wait until the economic effects of Covid are over! That my friends is the measure of our leader. She is the master of distraction.

      Bear in mind that the biggest economic fallout is about to happen with Brexit. Boris hasn’t shelved anything. He is a clown, but he doesn’t blink!

      So Nicola tells us she is going to look after our welfare. She is going to do this by allowing Boris to destroy our economy. In other words She is at it!

    171. Casabian says:

      Bob Mack 9.13 pm

      They have already been labelled on here affectionately as:

      SNP Trolls.

    172. Andy Ellis says:

      Still waiting for the Sturgeonite stooges on here explaining how this growing majority translates into a vote, still less actual independence?

      So far….nada.

      It’s almost as though they don’t have an actual plan, which kinda figures because they patently have no clue. Perhaps me and the other “malcontents” are right and they ARE well connected in the party. It would explain a whole lot, right…?

    173. Me Bungo Pony says:

      Big Jock wrote: “I am beginning to think you and others are PR trolls for the SNP”.

      ahundredthidiot wrote: “oh,son, they were right – you’re officer material right enough”.

      Davie Oga wrote: “That’s it exactly. It’s obvious. Normal people have opinions of their own. They may as well be posting from central office”.

      Bob Mack wrote: “I think MBP and others are involved with the party. I would not out it past the party to send disrupters just as the Unionists do”

      And so the descent into madness is complete. The malcontents, with all the political acumen, insight, strategic understanding and paranoia of a 6yo cannot conceive of any normal, rational person disagreeing with their childlike beliefs. There can be only one opinion according to them. Any deviation from it MUST be a dastardly plot to prevent them from bringing their “truth” to the people.

      You really do need to have an inflated opinion of yourselves to believe you are important enough to attract that sort of attention. It’s laughable.

    174. Tinto Chiel says:

      Honest,,,it disnae hurt.”

      @Casabian 5.56: I see you share the three or four-comma tic of Jac*kie/Mill*ennium who was hunted from here for abusive behaviour.

      Also: “There are more Englishmen in Moray than there is (sic) in London.
      You smell the place before you see it.” seems in character too.

      I think if you were standing on Brighton Pier I’d be claiming my £10…..

    175. Bob Mack says:

      @My Bungo Pony,

      Get you express that your opinion is the only valid one and all the rest are wrong.

      Perhaps you need deflating yourself!!

    176. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Bob Mack

      I’m not claiming there is some sort of conspiracy against me. I know I’m not that important. Perhaps the malcontents should lose the hubris.

    177. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit can’t be legally justified through constitutional jurisprudence, it is only justified through authoritarian English nationalism. So the choice is clear, do you support the international rule-of-law or not? Or to put that another way, do your actions support human rights? If the FM is unable to see this, then I suggest she should not be FM.

    178. Polly says:

      @ schrodingers cat says: ‘…ha ha ha ha ha’

      🙂 You better believe it squaddie boy. Since I’m honest, IF, not when but if, Nicola launches an Indy campaign I’ll be straight here the minute I hear of it to cheer her on, and if I’m feeling generous and you’re less obnoxious than usual I might even be gracious enough to smile politely and say you were partly correct. Yes, I saw the National puff piece and heard the complaints for day before it, but it does not a playing blinder move make.

      So high heid yins told you nothing at all really ‘ach well you see polls, they can change etc, we canny take the voters fur granted etc’ so no promises willing to be made about any plan at all. Yet you think in saying that they agree with you to make it clear the election will be a plebiscite for independence even if the polls hold up? It’s like the wizard of oz and nothing behind the big voice, yet you have the cheek to accuse other folk of being fools who are being gulled by smart words. You could be being gulled by prevarication and bad language skills.

      But meanwhile in the real world what happens if 1) the polls don’t hold up? 2) even if the polls hold, Nicola doesn’t take your advice and call it a plebiscite? 3) if your 50%+ vote doesn’t materialise, they get 47% only? 4) she calls it and we get over 50% but Boris is not for turning? If she still dithers then will you come back and grovel?

    179. Davie Oga says:

      Me bungo

      How are the SNP going to deliver independence when a third Sec 30 request is rejected if it is made?

      In your opinion as an educated person clued up on Scottish politics.

    180. Bob Mack says:

      Faith has been known to cause wars. Faith has caused normally sane people to commit the most appalling atrocities. They believe in something greater than themselves and act accordingly either on their own initiative or by direction from others who share that belief.

      That is why faith should preferably be underpinned by evidence.

      I question that faith in the SNP because they have been shown to receive people of their promised intentions. They asked for my vote to promote Independence, to stop me being taken out of Europe, and to ensure they would be strong in Westminster. I didn’t but and voted for them

      This far they have been unworthy of that belief from me, whilst others cling to that faith believing all will be well. It’s a fool’s game, played by clever people to fool the weak.

      Yes My Bungo Pony, I mean you.

    181. Big Jock says:

      I like to think I have given Nicola enough slack to prove my doubts wrong.

      I even believed something different might happen after the last GE SNP landslide. But alas she asked Boris for a section 30. He said no, she said it will not stand. 3 months passed, nothing happened. No plan of action, no plan B, no campaign zilch. Then Covid came along….

      Imagine if Covid hadn’t come along. What would be happening right now regarding independence. I can tell you. The exact same thing that is happening. We would still be on here wondering what Nicola was going to do.

      It’s groundhog day. We are reliving the same year since 2016 over and over again.

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      By not defending Scotland’s legal identity, the party has condemned the poor and the marginalised to suffer deeper social deprivation at the hands of English Torydum. They are also harming the fabric of international law. I assume this is not the party’s intention, so perhaps they are, in fact, getting there legal advice directly from HMG. They certainly appear transfixed by polls, while remaining doggedly uninterested in the constitution, international law, and international human rights.

      I suppose that’s British political culture for you, which is ‘exceptional’ to the core.

    183. I like it when Stewart McDonald says “…folk on all sides losing the heid.” I like it cos I like when the SNP middle class careerists use the odd colloquial Scottish term or word (“heid”) to pretend they’re Scottish through and through, drowning in common sense, and down with the Scottish voters and working class. Gives their damaged-brain communiques that extra added ‘personal’ touch, don’t you know. Hilariously transparent dross.

    184. Big Jock says:

      Cameron. Remember when Nicola told EU citizens to stay and she would make sure they could. They were let down badly. Thousands have left.

      But what about our EU citizenship? In December part of my identity is being removed. It’s profoundly tragic. Yet my First Minister is letting this happen.

      She has let all of us down.

    185. schrodingers cat says:

      @polly
      moi? obnoxious ? 🙂

      So high heid yins told you nothing at all really ‘ach well you see polls, they can change etc, we canny take the voters fur granted etc’ so no promises willing to be made about any plan at all.
      ————-
      correct, i just pointed out that they were reading from a script, read into that what you will

      what happens if
      1) the polls don’t hold up?
      we’re fucked

      2) even if the polls hold, Nicola doesn’t take your advice and call it a plebiscite?
      we still win another mandate for indyref2

      3) if your 50%+ vote doesn’t materialise, they get 47% only?
      were fucked

      4) she calls it and we get over 50% but Boris is not for turning

      not a suitable topic for btl on wings

    186. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Bob Mack

      As I said, a childlike understanding of politics. If you can’t see the trust being built between THE party of independence and the people of Scotland through the actions of the Scottish govt, leading to increased support for both them and the cause of independence, then no one can help you. You go for something when you can be, at the very least, fairly certain of victory not when it is a crapshoot. You may be willing to risk independence on the throw of a dice, I’m not.

      @Davie Oga
      It doesn’t take a genius to work out what options are open to them WHEN that happens. The difference would be (if the malcontents don’t f*ck it up) the SNP would be a majority govt, with over 50% of the vote and support for independence continuing to run at well over 50%. As above, if you can’t see that puts independence closer than ever, then no one can help you.

      As to those demanding the exact plan, I don’t know it, just being a bloke whose been to 3 SNP branch meetings in over 15 years. And I’m glad of that. Only fools tell their opponents their detailed plans before the clash. Then again, look who I’m talking to.

    187. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:
      Faith has been known to cause wars. Faith has caused normally sane people to commit the most appalling atrocities.

      —————

      funny that,
      i seem to be one of few here who hasnt lost faith.

      I also seem to be the only one advising people to avoid conflict

      I wonder why?

    188. Polly says:

      @ Clapper57 ‘Not even sure why I am bothering to add this correction because I am so f**king sick of it all …….’

      I hear you, but thanks for the reminder of the film about the dance contest where they dance until exhausted during the depression era to earn a prize – it’s an appropriate metaphor for what most of us are feeling at the minute. Good film too.

    189. schrodingers cat says:

      @MBP
      Only fools tell their opponents their detailed plans before the clash
      —————–
      DONT TELL’EM PIKE 🙂

    190. Elmac says:

      I used to be an avid reader of virtually every post on Wings and made a comment once in a while. Now I dip in only occasionally to get the drift of what is happening and that does not fill me with hope or inspiration. Most of the comments appear to be mainly concerned with personal vendettas or who, or who is not, a troll. There are a few of the old contributors left who speak from the heart and to the point but they are like ships in a desert.

      I think this blog will survive, it is too important not to, but it needs to recover its core purpose which is as a forum for people who’s prime concern is independence for Scotland and not for those who are intent on scoring petty points against each other, or for those who want to (and are probably paid) to disrupt it. Can we all please bury the hatchet and concentrate on the common ground which is the creation of an independent Scotland at the earliest opportunity. As for the trolls, a pox on them. I would prefer that the Rev blocks them as soon as they are evident but, failing that, they must be ignored to avoid giving them the oxygen of a pointless debate.

      My own feelings on the current situation are that we are in a state of Limbo, partially because of Covid 19, but mainly due to the languid attitude of our Scottish government. If we are to progress towards independence we need an urgent clear out of the SNP hierarchy or a new independence vehicle. The latter will take time but, if we cannot be rid of Sturgeon & co, there is no other way. As sure as hell, Sturgeon, Murrell, and the rest of them are too comfortable with their salaries and positions of power to remember why they are there in the first place and who put them there.

    191. CameronB Brodie says:

      Big Jock
      I just wish the party wasn’t full of so many smug, ignorant, gits, and that our oppressor wasn’t so open to legal defeat.

    192. Big Jock says:

      Maybe that previous statement should be” only fools ask for a section 30 knowing it will be refused”.

      Boris told Nicola he would knock back the request, she requested it anyway. Bear in mind it was the same request May had knocked back. Boris knew he could knock it back, because May knocked it back without consequence.

      What we have is a First Minister who painted herself into a section 30 corner. No ideas, no strategy and no hope.

      The other thing is. Support for the SNP has increased because of Boris , Brexit and the Covid cock up. It’s not because Nicola is selling independence to the public.

    193. Bob Mack says:

      @SC,

      Would you have resigned from the army if the politicians had asked you to go to war on behalf of this country on a matter of ideology?

    194. Elmac says:

      Re Big Jock @ 10.45

      Could not agree more except I would add no intention to “no ideas, no strategy and no hope*.

    195. Bob Mack says:

      @My Bingo Pony,

      That’s politics eh? Lying and deceiving is ok as long as you attach it to politics.

      Don’t ever let me hear you criticising the Tories or Labour again. From your own words comes the excuse they need to deprive Scotland of anything by any means. It’s politics.

    196. Me Bungo Pony says:

      And with every knocked back S30 request, the Scottish govt looks more reasonable while the UK govt looks more intransigent …. and Scots notice. The Scottish govt makes these requests full in the knowledge they will be rejected. They act as reasonably as possible in their interactions with the UK govt simply to highlight that UK intransigence in the face of Scottish reasonableness. It’s working.

    197. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Bob Mack (10:53)

      You appear to be making stuff up. Either that or you are not putting your point across very well.

    198. Big Jock says:

      I have said before. The answer to our problem is very simple. Both Murrel and Sturgeon need to go. Then we can start moving in a different direction.

      Our new leader needs to shake the tree, and get rid of the dead wood. We need radicalism at the heart of the strategy. The gradualists have had long enough.

      We the people need to somehow move the SNP away from Sturgeon. We need enough high heid yins to challenge her leadership. To be honest 7 years is a long time for most leaders these days.

      They all have a natural sell by date.

    199. Bob Mack says:

      @MBP,

      I wrote faith should never be given without some evidence, which you clearly feel is a childlike understanding of politics.

      I prefer to think of it as an understanding of liars. From an adult perspective.

    200. Casabian says:

      Tinto Chiel

      What a Tartan Tory wanker

      You actually looked back to see if somebody else used a comma.

      I mean,,,what a sad fuckin wanker.

      You Sturgeonistas really are the pits

    201. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:
      Would you have resigned from the army if the politicians had asked you to go to war on behalf of this country on a matter of ideology?
      ———–
      unlikely, they wouldnt have allowed me to. then again, i wasnt in the brit army. i would fight for maggie thatcher

    202. schrodingers cat says:

      ouch, i wouldnt fight for thatcher

    203. James Che. says:

      If our referendum was interfered with in 2014, the simple answer to that is Scotland is entitled to rerun that same referendum now,
      We all know that MSM and certain politicians will quickly retract this as not being accurate.
      It is about time that we had a new Independence Party that puts independence first and foremost.

    204. Bob Mack says:

      @Big Jock,

      I have a feeling the Salmond Inquiry might dislodge many from their branches.

    205. CameronB Brodie says:

      When the Scottish government is unable to defend the economic, social and cultural rights of those living in Scotland, because of British constitutional convention, you know you are not living in a constitutional democracy.

      Social Epistemology
      A Journal of Knowledge, Culture and Policy Volume 33, 2019 – Issue 3
      Dismissive Incomprehension: A Use of Purported Ignorance to Undermine Others

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02691728.2019.1625982

    206. By the way. Wrote this a few months ago. This is what you have to look forward to when the NHS is sold to the American parasites to suck us dry like the profit-fundamentalism-obsessed leeches they are. Enjoy!

      https://whorattledyourcage.blogspot.com/2019/11/coming-soon-to-hospital-near-you.html

    207. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Big Jock
      “To be honest 7 years is a long time for most leaders these days. They all have a natural sell by date”.

      And yet she has rarely, if ever, been more popular or trusted. Shall we replace her with Bob Mack instead? Will that get the Scottish public fully behind independence? Or would it be the biggest PR disaster and act of self harm in Scottish political history?

    208. Casabian says:

      Me Bungo Pony,,,,, Tartan Tory…

      You are the quintessential Tartan Tory.

      You seem detached from what is needed here.

      It’s as if you don’t need to go there to find your route to Independence.

      Somehow Sturgeon is going to magically make it happen.

    209. Polly says:

      @ Schrödinger’s cat

      ‘reading from a script’ yes there are a lot of SNP party drones I noticed many of whom either don’t think for themselves or are afraid to step out of line, but are very busy defending the queen bee – but that’s bringing us back into Aristophanes wasp territory again and how best to make people change their minds in voting preference.

      1) the polls don’t hold up?
      we’re fucked

      2) even if the polls hold, Nicola doesn’t take your advice and call it a plebiscite?
      we still win another mandate for indyref2

      3) if your 50%+ vote doesn’t materialise, they get 47% only?
      were fucked

      4) she calls it and we get over 50% but Boris is not for turning

      not a suitable topic for btl on wings

      So your answer is that all four are duds? Because 2) means we are stuck where we’ve been each election so far and 4) doesn’t really bear thinking about and your dear leader would never condone it anyway. So only the perfect independence plan with all skittles lined up will be a strike. We have to have polls continuing to rise, Sturgeon has to agree to say it is a plebiscitary election, we have to get over 50% of the vote, and Boris has to agree to give us the vote – and even then we have to win it. Since you’re being honest answer one more – how much chance of it happening do you reckon? Guess a percentage.

      And ‘the malcontents should lose the hubris.‘ Funny how the two talking about hubris in others show so much of it themselves. 🙂

    210. Casabian says:

      I think those who have come this far and will go no further are your true Tartan Tories.

      I honestly think after Independence, they will become members of a newly formed Scottish Conservative Party.

    211. Dogbiscuit says:

      Stewart Hosie is a foolish piece of work if he seriously believes Russia and not the BBC undermined Scotland. The SNP undermine Scotland by choosing to believe such security service claptrap.
      In the 1980s I remember Russian Ambassadors being regularly grilled by British broadcasters with the same bullshit as they’re trying on today.
      Stewart Hotsy irresistible to British honytraps.
      A fucking durak .

    212. CameronB Brodie says:

      I can’t help myself but I’m sitting here with a social epistemology journal in front of me, as you do, so I thought I’d put it to some use. I thought this one might interest folks, seeing as how there appears doubt as to whether the FM speaks for Scotland.

      Social Epistemology
      A Journal of Knowledge, Culture and Policy Volume 34, 2020 – Issue 3
      Don’t Put Words in My Mouth: Self-appointed Speaking-for Is Testimonial Injustice Without Prejudice

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02691728.2019.1682710

    213. Bob Mack says:

      @Mr Bingo Pony,

      You don’t know me to make anything like that judgement. You only make it from your biased and skewed interpretation formed by yourself because I disagree with you.

      Who needs to look at themselves now? Not me.

    214. schrodingers cat says:

      Polly says:
      I noticed many of whom either don’t think for themselves or are afraid to step out of line, but are very busy defending the queen bee –

      ——————
      i defend her because i believe she is the best chance we have for winning our indy

      as for not stepping out of line…. who do you think has been pushing the idea of an indy list party and tactical voting since 2014?
      i was doing this when you still thought the spice girls were pretty cool.

    215. Casabian says:

      Tinto Chiel

      Another SNP Troll.

      A Sturgeon Luvvie.

      They don’t like their glorious leader being dragged down to the level of the gutter.

      Tinto Chiel thinks that’s for scum like us.

      He us a wee Tartan Tory.

    216. Polly says:

      Me Bungo Pony says:

      ‘Then again, look who I’m talking to.’

      Yes and look who were listening to. You’re not here to win hearts and minds, neither is the party on the doorsteps with the Self ID thing. And you’re not listening to anyone here, so why should anyone listen to you?

    217. Big Jock says:

      The thing that the trust Nicola brigade forget. Is that we don’t have years to get independence. We actually have months.

      This is not a benign government in WM we are dealing with. The process of dismantling Holyrood is well underway. It will accelerate after Brexit. Boris sees a weakness at the heart of the SNP government. He has witnessed Nicola’s stern stare, but it delivered no punch.

      He knows the SNP leader will not act in a confrontation. She will simply make veiled threats.

      If we had 5 years, then I dare say we could take a punt on Nicola’s grafualism. But we don’t, we are staying down the barrel of a gun. We need out in the next 12 months.

    218. schrodingers cat says:

      @polly
      So your answer is that all four are duds?

      no, im not, im merely pointing the democratic options, and my prefered option.

      i dont know how bojo will react to a 50%+ vote, then again, neither do you.

      the question of the suspension of the democratic process isnt a laughing matter, nor is it a pissing contest. it isnt a suitable conversation for a public blog.

    219. Fergus Denoon says:

      Thanks, Stuart.

      The irony of Westminster investigating a country for interfering with a vote because of an interest in a preffered outcome seems to have been lost on most.

      Probably never looked into it because they… obviously, think it’s perfectly reasonable to flood a country with propoganda to manipulate the result.

    220. Bob Mack says:

      @SC,

      You were pushing for a list party that would take no part in the activities of Holyrood, therefore could not influence SNP policy.

      You’re was a different reason rather than what people actually want now.

    221. Gregor says:

      Banana UK’s ‘expert Russian witnesses’ include the actor responsible for the bullsh** ‘Trump/Russia Dossier’ (paid client of Hillary Clinton’s law firm: Perkins Coie): Rogue deep-State CLOWN: Christopher Steele/ORBIS: (https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-scandals/british-court-rules-against-christopher-steele-orders); (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=aW5kZXBlbmRlbnQuZ292LnVrfGlzY3xneDo1Y2RhMGEyN2Y3NjM0OWFl); (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/15/us/politics/steele-dossier-declassified-footnotes-ig-report.html).

    222. jfngw says:

      @Polly 10:34pm

      You forgot to add that there was effectively no prize money, the expenses of the event was deducted from the prize money. I’m sure there is a metaphor for the union in there somewhere.

    223. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Bob Mack
      “You don’t know me to make anything like that judgement. You only make it from your biased and skewed interpretation formed by yourself because I disagree with you. Who needs to look at themselves now? Not me”.

      So you actually think you are better FM material that Nicola Sturgeon and would be better at winning the hearts and minds of the Scottish people? Polly didn’t seem to know the meaning of hubris. I would advise her to look no further than Bob here for a definition 🙂

    224. Dogbiscuit says:

      It’s not surprising the UK Government still employs Christopher Steele easily a poster boy for security services almost Ealing Comedy approach to geopolitics . I hope the Russians keep their sense of humour. To all Russians our idiot politicians don’t speak for the general population.They only speak for fools.

    225. schrodingers cat says:

      @bob
      If we had 5 years, then I dare say we could take a punt on Nicola’s gradualism. But we don’t, we are staying down the barrel of a gun. We need out in the next 12 months.
      ————–

      strangely, i agree with some of this. I think it a risk to wait until april 2021, the power grab will quicken. bojo reads the same polls we do, if he think that we could win a 50%+ majority in april and intends to still say no, I would advise him to move before and shut down holyrood. why wait until we have an actual mandate for indy?

    226. Dogbiscuit says:

      Bungle no fucken you again.

    227. Polly says:

      ‘Only fools tell their opponents their detailed plans before the clash
      —————–
      DONT TELL’EM PIKE ?’

      Only a monumentally foolish party doesn’t encourage their members, supporters and voters of long years standing when they feel despair at the horrendous situation coming down the track to their country. Only arrogantly and egotistically foolish activists harry and deride their peers when their spirit flags. Any battle general has to carry with them and inspire their troops to follow. Where’s your inspiration guys? All I see is belittlement and derision in you.

    228. Bob Mack says:

      @Mr Bingo Pony,

      Leadership is only 50% substance. The rest is PR. Ask Boris!

    229. Dogbiscuit says:

      I think the FBI might be developing an interest in Christopher Steele.

    230. Polly says:

      @ jfngw says:

      You forgot to add that there was effectively no prize money, the expenses of the event was deducted from the prize money. I’m sure there is a metaphor for the union in there somewhere.

      Indeed.

    231. Dan says:

      @Me Bungo Pony

      I see you picked up on my jokey music post but again choose not to respond to my point asking why you are so assured the polls are at 54% because of the SNP, and not because of other factors that have driven them to this level.

    232. Dogbiscuit says:

      Bungly wungly ding dong vote SNP for jam tomorrow.Independence is somewhere over the rainbow.

    233. Big Jock says:

      Here’s a thought.

      It’s possible that this debate and countless others. Could potentially change the future direction of the SNP. Perhaps the rebellion could be the catalyst that changes our future.

      People who suggest it only creates division. May indeed be the ones who are preventing independence by doing nothing.

      Our frustration, anger and call to action. May be the very thing that gets us independence.

    234. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:
      You were pushing for a list party that would take no part in the activities of Holyrood, therefore could not influence SNP policy.

      You’re was a different reason rather than what people actually want now.
      —————–
      actually i have put forward numerous suggested types of indy list parties, from greens, isp, alliance, snp2, even a party of cardboard cut outs.

      the idea is to propose a party that can convince the snp voters to vote for it. why? to get rid of unionist list msps. I dont really care what their secondary aims are, as long as they are indy, they have got to be better than anny wells.

      case in point, you yourself argued on here that we couldnt have 5 indy list parties fighting for the same votes, we need them to unite, agree to stand in different regions etc. This shows you obviously do understand the electoral arithmetic in holyrood.

      so what to do? well, it would be good for say indylive to do a sort of leaders debates (msm wont touch this) of all the new indy list parties.

      that way the indy movement can make their minds up which is the best option. we could crowd fund some opinion polling (not kelly obvs)

      i care not who wins, ill simply back the option most popular with the majority. if thats the isp, great. lets do it

    235. Baxter 1967 says:

      Nicola Sturgeon’s popularity has increased there is no doubt about it. Relative to Boris she seems grounded, dependable and honest. He appears as a bluffer , flamboyant and insincere. Scottish folk are suspicious of politicians or anybody who is showy and full of themselves and are likely to have “ Kent their Faither”. Also helping her is the fact that we have the worst and most useless leaders of the Scottish Tory and Labour parties in history. The fact that support for Independence has increased recently is I believe partly attributable to her but it’s a paradox for me because I think Independence is now becoming less likely under her leadership. Strategically, Sturgeon is a disaster. At each and every opportunity she has lost the battle as has been well documented on this site many times. Totally outmanoeuvred on Brexit. She is a woke fanatic, constantly virtue signalling and when responding yesterday to the flimsy accusations of Russian interference in the 2014 Independence campaign, she needlessly sidestepped by going all woolly on how she was so far politically opposite from Putin – a complete and utter irrelevance yet she had to get that in because she thinks slide rule woke. Her proposed social legislation is lunatic and dangerous and I just wish she would come clean and explain to the Scottish people why she is so hell bent on pursuing such idiocy and chucking loads of cash at useless parasitical quangos led by nutters. If she did it would be the end of her and we could then have a proper leader with the right priorities.

    236. Dogbiscuit says:

      I’m sick of politicians blowing smoke up arses. I’m mildly irritated by their online flunkies constantly insulting our intelligence with specious arguments and promises. It feels distinctly abusive given also the unnecessary restrictions that are being imposed on our way of life To many decisions are being made for us whether we like it or not and we’re slung a load of old codswallop about Russia.
      Mean while we still have a First Minister who is revelling in her imagined power and of course the covid 19 emergency powers act will remain permanently on the statute books and we as a people will never be free again.

    237. schrodingers cat says:

      Polly says:
      DONT TELL’EM PIKE ?’

      Only a monumentally foolish party doesn’t encourage their members, supporters and voters of long years standing when they feel despair at the horrendous situation coming down the track to their country.
      ——————–

      http://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/735916395333543810/

    238. Stoker says:

      Me Bungo Pony wrote on 22 July, 2020 at 10:32 pm @Bob Mack

      “As I said, a childlike understanding of politics. If you can’t see the trust being built between THE party of independence and the people of Scotland through the actions of the Scottish govt, leading to increased support for both them and the cause of independence, then no one can help you.”

      Oh do fuck off you absolute twat. What trust? There’s absolutely no logic whatsoever in claiming, ‘Oh we’re building trust’ at the same time you’re pissing off endless numbers of women (real women for those that don’t want us using that term).

      And eroding the trust of folk like myself who have fought for indy all our lives. And there are many of us. And btw, guess what, most are not “Wingers” so bang goes that pigeon hole. Please, do us all a favour and go talk to your self about building trust, preferably in some wee darkened closet.

      We understand politics only too well. We understand it enough to know Sturgeon & her pathetic band of inexperienced excuses for advisors are having rings run around them. We understand enough to know Sturgeon has lied to us. That she’s being made a cunt of by Bozo & his advisor Cummings.

      Bozo’s trip north is feck all to do with gaining support or anything of the sort, it’s more to do with showing they can trample all over Scotland at will and Sturgeon can do zilch about it. It’s more Etonian boys saying, I’m coming to Scotland, I’ll break your pandemic rules, so let’s see what you’ll do about it.

      No matter what % of public support one carries, if you insist on begging your abuser for approval then you’re not the one to be leading Scotland to take back our right of self-determination.

      If anyone has a childlike understanding of politics it certainly isn’t us. FFS! Trust? Coming from a Queen Nic sycophant is as hilarious a statement anyone is likely to read.

    239. Bob Mack says:

      @Big Jock.

      I concur. I have no doubt there have been many at branch meetings arguing the same thing.

      It is those who follow unquestioningly who are the bigger danger. They are the true destroyer of a party and an ideal. History is littered with such people. Acknowledge the problem and then deal with it.

    240. jfngw says:

      Tompkins displaying the quality of being a professor:

      https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1286054696990519296

      To be quite honest, this made more sense:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UJZF5iRhNg

    241. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Polly
      “Where’s your inspiration guys? All I see is belittlement and derision in you”.

      I’m not here to “inspire”. None of the malcontents would be interested in it anyway. You’ve already made up your minds and refuse to budge from your destructive course.

      I’m happy to debate on friendly terms but that option is not open to me here. Anybody who veers from the Sturgeon/Satan narrative is subject to instantaneous abuse. Just by having a different view point you are labelled a troll/disruptor/5th Columnist/unionist and worse. Do your blinkers not allow you to see that?

      PS Where is the “inspiration” from the malcontents? Agreeing with each other while abusing anyone who disagrees is NOT inspirational.

    242. Stoker says:

      Polly, Lochside and Casabian, youse do not post here nearly enough.

      Some great refreshing comments from you 3 over the past several days or so.
      _______________________________________

      Thought for tomorrow, folks:

      Where is it written that Scotland *must* attempt to take back its right to self-determination in a manner acceptable to London?

      Goodnight, Troops! Sleep well and stay safe! 😉

    243. BScotFree made the best comment here this evening. Superb extrapolation on the FM’s psychology through her cultural consumption. All she ever says she reads is intersectionalist wanky poser shite that nobody in their right mind would read, total PC image-mongering. She’s a wannabe writer, now forcing us to live in her failed fictional Scotland.

      There are at least two posters here I will not read. No interest in their sneering input. As for all this he-said-she-said sub-teenage shite…grow up. A waste of words and time. Which is obviously why the raw stinking meat is dangled (sighing here) for the incensed to attack.

    244. Polly says:

      @ Schrödinger’s cat

      I never thought the Spice Girls were cool. A made up band and a lot of crap.

      Is it stepping out of line punting a list party when you’re anonymous here? You’re not like Mr Thompson and his Alliance party standing up and being counted so don’t take too many kudos for yourself just yet.

      No, lots of thing can’t be arranged here but though I’m willing to wield my baseball bat as much as the next woman, maybe even more so since I do have one and have wielded it before strategically and very successfully, and though ready to man the barricades, no one seriously considers that. So all you’re talking is disrupting a few things here and there, civil disobedience, sit down protests etc.. And really if it comes to that – our having to defend Scotland, independence AND the SNP, well we really are digeridooed. The SNP said they’d protect us, remember that. They’re the ones with the powers. And if they don’t have those powers they should take them. And if not prepared for that they shouldn’t have promised. She promised, many times. If we have to go down the route of protecting it ourselves as you suggest then what the bloody good were they?

    245. Big Jock says:

      Nicola stated that the Section 30 was the Gold Standard.That is her single biggest mistake.

      It left her with no credible alternative strategy. Because she hamstrung herself in making such a statement. She can never take it back.

      In fact she suggested anything other than such may be deemed illegal.

      You would almost think it was deliberate!

    246. CameronB Brodie says:

      Democratic emancipation should be driven from below, or else it risks perpetuating structural, cultural, injustices. Unfortunately, the populist nature of contemporary British constitutionalism is turning Brexitania away from the potential for universal access to justice.

      Social Epistemology
      A Journal of Knowledge, Culture and Policy
      Volume 31, 2017 – Issue 3: Epistemic Democracy, Deliberative Quality and Expertise Guest Editors: Henrik Friberg-Fernros, Cathrine Holst, Johan Karlsson Schaffer

      Beyond the Fact of Disagreement? The Epistemic Turn in Deliberative Democracy

      Abstract
      This paper takes stock of a recent but growing movement within the field of deliberative democracy, which normatively argues for the epistemic dimension of democratic authority and positively defends the truth-tracking properties of democratic procedures.

      Authors within that movement call themselves epistemic democrats, hence the recognition by many of an ‘epistemic turn’ in democratic theory. The paper argues that this turn is a desirable direction in which the field ought to evolve, taking it beyond the ‘fact of disagreement’ that had previously blocked the conceptual road to acknowledging more than intrinsic properties to democratic decision procedures.

      The paper shows how two authors in particular – Joshua Cohen and David Estlund – have successfully lifted the Rawlsian requirement of epistemic abstinence and defends epistemic democrats and the implications of the epistemic turn in democratic theory against various misconceptions.

      Keywords:
      Epistemic democracy, deliberation, disagreement, truth, public reason

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02691728.2017.1317868?src=recsys

    247. Dogbiscuit says:

      I suspect Nicola Sturgeon will be disappointed by next years Holyrood election results. I think she is too remote and far gone from the needs and opinions of voters . Her assault on freedom of speech is enough on its own to turn me off from voting for them.
      Only Tyrants try to shut you up.
      The SNPs attempts to undermine the legal system is a dangerous omen. The Procurater Fiscal in the Salmond trial demonstrated the Roland Frieseler approach to ‘justice’.
      The malign voluntary ignorance of Scotland’s journalists is obscene.
      The collusion between politicians journalists and the security services marks us out as a tinpot little monarchy lying off the North West coast of Europe. A daff ref k frightened little Island surrounded by a self imposed iron curtain.

    248. schrodingers cat says:

      Stoker says:
      22 July, 2020 at 11:48 pm
      Polly, Lochside and Casabian, youse do not post here nearly enough.

      Some great refreshing comments from you 3 over the past several days or so.

      ————

      really stoker? you think these are refreshing comments? you think the wider yes movement approves? dont you recognise a unionist troll when you see one? waken up at the back

      —————————————
      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 11:09 pm
      Me Bungo Pony,,,,, Tartan Tory…

      You are the quintessential Tartan Tory.

      You seem detached from what is needed here.

      It’s as if you don’t need to go there to find your route to Independence.

      Somehow Sturgeon is going to magically make it happen.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 11:05 pm
      Tinto Chiel

      What a Tartan Tory wanker

      You actually looked back to see if somebody else used a comma.

      I mean,,,what a sad fuckin wanker.

      You Sturgeonistas really are the pits

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 9:39 pm
      Bob Mack 9.13 pm

      They have already been labelled on here affectionately as:

      SNP Trolls.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 7:25 pm
      Me Bungo Pony

      You’re not that queen of all Sturgeon supporters, Capella are you?

      She popped down,,,,and you popped up.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 6:18 pm
      I wonder if Johnson will head straight for Little England (Moray) tomorrow.

      There are more Englishmen in Moray than there is in London.

      You smell the place before you see it.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 6:03 pm
      Johnson going to contaminate our hallowed ground tomorrow.

      The bastard shouldn’t be allowed out of his car.

      I hope a warm Scottish welcome is planned for the bastard who told us last week that there is no such thing as a Scottish Border.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 5:56 pm
      One day you mad mental Sturgeon supporters will have your own Lightbulb moment.

      And you will cry:

      “By God I get it, I now see why all those thousands of Indy supporters gave up on Sturgeon”.

      And God said, “Let there be light, and there was light”.

      Honest,,,it disnae hurt.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 5:50 pm
      I think we can add Juteman to the ever decreasing list of Sturgeonistas.

      Their band does grow ever shorter

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 5:41 pm
      Me Bungo Pony

      Obviously a regular Sturgeonista who has gone all shy on us.

      Even the rabid Sturgeonites are too embarrassed to even put their own name against supporting her.

      So they go all,,,, undercover.

      Probably that lunatic robbo,, or that other lunatic,,the Cat.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 5:36 pm
      Juteman

      I never mentioned Scotland.

      I said it was a tactic the Romans used to buy off the Tribal leaders to keep them sweet.

      The same way the English have bought off Sturgeon.

      If you were Scottish you would have known that Juteman.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 5:12 pm
      The Sturgeon supporters on this site remind me of No Voters in 2014.

      I just couldn’t understand what they didn’t see.

      Why didn’t they see that Independence was the obvious choice, yet they still didn’t “get it”.

      The Sturgeonistas of Wings seem to have the same blind spot that those No Voters had in 2014.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 4:57 pm
      The english are doing what the Romans done many centuries ago.

      The Romans would make the Tribal leaders an offer they couldn’t refuse.

      Money, homes, personal protection, transport.

      As long as the Tribal leader agreed to capitulate.

      The English are the modern day Romans and the Tribal leader is Nicola Sturgeon.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 4:38 pm
      Juteman

      Just stating facts my dear man.

      There is no bigger Unionist in Scotland right now than Nicola Sturgeon.

      “What are the obvious targets of British rule in Scotland?”

      How about Bute House Juteman?

      The biggest Unionist in Scotland resides there.

      Casabian says:
      22 July, 2020 at 11:18 pm
      Tinto Chiel

      Another SNP Troll.

      A Sturgeon Luvvie.

      They don’t like their glorious leader being dragged down to the level of the gutter.

      Tinto Chiel thinks that’s for scum like us.

      He us a wee Tartan Tory.

    249. Dogbiscuit says:

      It’s interesting that those in power refer to ‘malcontents’ .

    250. schrodingers cat says:

      Polly says:
      if they don’t have those powers they should take them.
      ———–
      thats not the job of political parties, its ours

      there is at least some realism in your post, you arnt calling for the eu/un big boys to come in and rescue us

    251. Polly says:

      @ Me Bungo Pony says:

      ‘Where is the “inspiration” from the malcontents? Agreeing with each other while abusing anyone who disagrees is NOT inspirational.’

      If that’s the case why do you keep coming back here? Are you a masochist? If you deride everyone here as soon as they dispute something you say I’m guessing it’s no wonder you’ve been to so very few local branch meetings. But we malcontents don’t claim to inspire anyone, we’re at the proverbial end of the tether, the party should inspire us, it did once before, now it expects us to inspire them. So inspire us, strathbungo. Don’t you see many folk here and not here, for I wasn’t til recently, wail silently in desperation at the party and what it is becoming and what it fails to do. Inspire us and we won’t feel so negatively.

      What to know about hubris, since you seem sadly lacking in understanding it and how it works yourself and misapply it to people who show no inkling of it, is that there is always a tipping point for leaders, confidence becomes over assurance becomes arrogance. Once that is reached the momentum is downwards. Sometimes the more you know the more dangerous you become to someone who is hubristic. Then they can become dangerous to everyone.

    252. schrodingers cat says:

      Big Jock says:
      Nicola stated that the Section 30 was the Gold Standard.That is her single biggest mistake.
      —————
      not really, it is the best way. not the only way, their are other options, eg election indy plebiscite

      ——————
      hardly her fault wm wont agree to it, same way they are blaming the snp for russian interference. we know the reverse is true

      same way folk here blame nicola for the wm power grab.

      but put it to you, such unionist propaganda from the msm is wearing thin and is losing its hold on scotland. people no longer believe it

      convincing a majority of scots has always been the long game

    253. schrodingers cat says:

      Polly says:

      If that’s the case why do you keep coming back here?
      ————
      cos this inst your fuckin’ blog

    254. Bob Mack says:

      @SC,

      There speaks an army man. I have gone through many periods of history and I can find no example of an instantaneous uprising among any population who had no political force directing it.

      Even though the people were willing to put themselves in the front line.

      It is indeed the job of politicians to lead.

    255. Clapper57 says:

      @ Elmac @ 10.37pm

      Great comment.

      Have a nice day when the sun comes up.

      😉

    256. Me Bungo Pony says:

      This site is the most angry and abusive site I have ever posted on. Only the Scotsman site was even close.

      The views of the main malcontent posters could easily be mistaken for those of unionists. After all, the goals of malcontents and unionists converge. Unionists want to harm the SNP and Sturgeon because they see them/her as a serious threat to the Union. Malcontents also want to harm the same targets for, in my opinion, misguided and naive reasons. They are therefore the perfect target for a unionist Trojan horse operation. I obviously don’t know if that is happening but it easily could be.

      I never expected to be the subject of this kind of abuse from supposedly pro-indy posters who bizarrely want to take the SNP down when both they and independence are surging ahead in the polls. It is both self destructive and potentially suspect.

    257. Clapper57 says:

      @ Polly @ 10.34pm

      🙂

      Have a nice day Polly…when the sun comes up hopefully….raining today in Edinburgh…another metaphor also 😉

    258. Polly says:

      Hey Cat 🙂 I’m tired but I could still make a better argument than you on this.

      ‘thats not the job of political parties, its ours’

      No it’s not, if people do it it is a revolution, and revolutions never end where you think they will, usually ending with a dictator. And though I don’t much like Sturgeon at the minute I don’t think she’d want that. I’m always a realist, one of the few things we agree on is no one will help us, we have to do it ourselves. But the ‘its Our job to take control’? No it isn’t wed look like a rabble, be condemned ( especially by your dear leader, my god man do you want to show her up with all the guardian readers! ) and vilified. And mobs are unruly as well as the fact Scotland isn’t renowned for it, hence Salmond’s ‘the English riots’ .

      No, a Scottish party, duly elected by the people of the country every election since 2007 to 2020 is more than enough mandate for her to declare on the morning after the next election ‘I am declaring independence due to the lengthy manage my party holds and the country which voted emphatically against brexit the disaster of which we will not be party, we will not allow powers to be stripped from Holyrood and in due course we will have a referendum, which we will control with Eu observers, to confirm this’ They need to lead, that’s what parties are supposed to do, not make us in revolutionaries because they’re scared to act.

      Now goodnight and I’ll take up cudgels with you another time. Sleep well.

    259. Polly says:

      @ Clapper57

      Night Clapper. Sleep well. 🙂

    260. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:
      There speaks an army man.

      ————
      actually no, i served with numerous uda and ira members. both sides had political wings

    261. schrodingers cat says:

      @polly
      No, a Scottish party, duly elected by the people of the country every election since 2007 to 2020 is more than enough mandate for her to declare on the morning after the next election ‘I am declaring independence
      ————

      you only think that cos you aint been further than echelfechan.

      the real world isnt like that. and as far as bullies go, the brit establishment is in the top tier

    262. Polly says:

      @ now Cat, keep your claws sheathed

      cos this inst your fuckin’ blog

      My question was why would someone who criticises all and sundry and feels this is the worst blog – even worse than the Scotsman! – why put themselves through it is what I meant and would be obvious to anyone not deliberately willing to take offence. So don’t put words into my mouth.

    263. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m a bit stunned myself at how easily all this is appearing before me, I didn’t think I still had it in me. Which is nice. 🙂

      Social Epistemology
      A Journal of Knowledge, Culture and Policy Volume 34, 2020 – Issue 5

      Epistemic Neglect

      ABSTRACT
      In most testimonial transactions between adults, the hearer’s obligation is to accord the speaker a level of credibility that matches the evidence that what she is saying is true. When the speaker is a child, however, the adult must often respond by extending a level of trust greater than that warranted by the evidence of past epistemic performance.

      Such trust, which I call ‘hopeful trust,’ is not extended on the basis the child’s extant credibility, but on the basis of their epistemic potential. Hopeful trust communicates to the speaker that she has reason to trust her own epistemic capacities and thereby enables her to do so.

      Extensions of hopeful trust are thus a method of causal construction; by treating individuals as if they are reliable, hopeful trust enables those individuals to become reliable. While not all adults bear the responsibility to extend hopeful trust to children, those who occupy positions of educational authority do. Failure to discharge this responsibility constitutes a distinct kind of epistemic injustice that can take both transactional and structural forms.

      KEYWORDS:
      Trust, hope, education, epistemic injustice

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02691728.2020.1737748

    264. Polly says:

      Cat, the Brit establishment is top tier for bullying?

      Trans rights activists that SNP promote are pretty close second, and you come across that way yourself on occasion too.

      Now talk amongst yourself and try not to be childishly throwing tantrums.

      To all a good night.

    265. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:
      There speaks an army man. I have gone through many periods of history and I can find no example of…
      —–
      as i said, old colonel blink armchair generals…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S7QARslq74

    266. Polly says:

      🙂 night Cameron

    267. Me Bungo Pony says:

      Because Polly, it doesnt put me off. As SC knows, the Newburgh wind turbine debate involved a bloke whose reflexly abusive nature would fit right in here and it didn’t stop either of us putting our own views across. I don’t give in to abusers. Especially those who threaten my lifelong dream of Scottish independence.

    268. schrodingers cat says:

      Polly
      have a cracker

      you aint seen nothin’ yet

    269. schrodingers cat says:

      My question was why would someone who criticises all and sundry and feels this is the worst blog – even worse than the Scotsman! – why put themselves through it is what I meant and would be obvious to anyone not deliberately willing to take offence. So don’t put words into my mouth.

      —————
      because up until 2 months ago it wasnt. it was the best indy blog in scotland. i hope it will be again. a lot of people invested a great deal of time, energy and money to make it so, not all are willing to allow it to be overun by unionist trolls

      you might think that the present clapping squirells around you are your friends but they arnt

    270. PacMan says:

      Me Bungo Pony says: 23 July, 2020 at 12:24 am

      From your postings, I’m taking malcontents as a compliment.

    271. CameronB Brodie says:

      Polly
      Night, night. 😉

    272. Me Bungo Pony says:

      Whatever floats your boat Pac man.

    273. schrodingers cat says:

      Polly says:
      Cat, the Brit establishment is top tier for bullying?
      Trans rights activists that SNP promote are pretty close second,
      —————–

      only in the middle earth you inhabit
      come jan 1st, and medication and food supplies start running out, do you really think folk will give a stuff about yer cause celebre?

    274. Bob Mack says:

      Armchair Generals? I would give my eye teeth for only one of them who was in the SNP hierarchy.

      Alas we have many corporate instead.

    275. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      You really are quite narrow minded and sexist, these GRA amendments would legally undermine biological women and destroy the potential for justice in Scotland.

    276. schrodingers cat says:

      here, cam, did i forget to tell you to…….. today? weirdo

    277. schrodingers cat says:

      @bob
      really? how many infantry units does sturgeon command?

      the only forces that exist are in your head

    278. Bob Mack says:

      When the food supplies and medecine start running out the Scottish people will not look to Westminster. They will look much closer to home. Just like Covid.

      Shortage does not enhance rational behaviour or belief.
      They will turn to those in charge

    279. Bob Mack says:

      @SC,

      No infantry. No mechanised. No logistics. No leadership.

      Well this is going to be the shortest rebellion EVER!

    280. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Tinto Chiel
      Another SNP Troll.
      A Sturgeon Luvvie.
      They don’t like their glorious leader being dragged down to the level of the gutter.
      Tinto Chiel thinks that’s for scum like us.
      He us a wee Tartan Tory.”

      Can you not take a hint, pal? Banned. You’re going to run out of IP addresses eventually.

    281. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat
      Away and play with yourself, or find a ball of wool. Anything to keep you from claiming the spotlight for your opinion and judgement.

      Philosophical Explorations
      An International Journal for the Philosophy of Mind and Action
      Volume 20, 2017 – Issue sup1: False but Useful Beliefs

      On the special insult of refusing testimony

      Abstract
      In this paper, I defend the claim, made by G. E. M. Anscombe and J. L. Austin, that you can insult someone by refusing her testimony. I argue that refusing someone’s testimony can manifest doubt about her credibility, which in the relevant cases is offensive to her, given that she presupposed her credibility by telling what she did.

      I conclude by sketching three applications of my conclusion: to the issue of valuable false belief, to the issue of testimonial injustice, and to the issue of skepticism about testimonial knowledge.

      Keywords:
      testimony, trust, insult, epistemic injustice, Austin, Anscombe

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13869795.2017.1287293

    282. mr thms says:

      The Russia Report is fake news unlike..

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-53500943

      “Royal Bank of Scotland today loses its brand status, to become merely a part of NatWest Group plc

      Customers will notice little change, but the symbolism is big, in repairing the reputational damage from the 2008 crash

      It’s not the only one to have lost either corporate clout or its brand. Clydesdale Bank has only a few months left, as it becomes Virgin Money”

      Looks like the issue of ‘Scottish’ banks in an independent Scotland will be more nuanced, whenever the next referendum happens..

    283. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack says:
      Well this is going to be the shortest rebellion EVER!
      ————

      you only think that cos you lack imagination

    284. schrodingers cat says:

      mr thms

      does that mean rbs and clydsdale notes will disappear?

    285. Corrado Mella says:

      IF any interference happened before or during the 2014 Indyref, its result is null and void.

      IF any interference happened, it’s relevant only if it advantaged the side that won (No) and would have lost otherwise. It would be irrelevant if it advantaged the Yes side, as it lost anyway.

      Ergo, if there was interference, the side that must keech its breeks for the prospect of seeing the result overturned (or at least invalidated, dead and buried for a generation) is the BritNazi Establishment.

    286. iain mhor says:

      Maybe, just maybe, the greatest trick ever played was a referendum.
      Two reasonss – there are a plethora of referendum subjects which could be held, which are not reseved matters, but inderctly would have an affect on devolved matters – but have never been mooted.
      Second, It has always been maintained that Holyrood is the creation of Westminster and only Westminster and its procedures are the legitimate theatre for UK Politics -therefore, only Scottish MP’s are legitimate.

      So if you really, really want to get down and dirty – MSP’s and Holyrood (as has been suggested many times) is no more than a glorified council, councillors and FPTP MP’s are actually your Scottish United Kingdom representatives.

      That gives you the choice – Argue that MSP’s, Holyrood and a referendum, is the true seat and democracy of Scottish politics and its ‘sovereign will’ or, that its MP’s at Westminster and a mere electoral majority, is the political will of Scotland.

      Westminster must have a fantastic budget for ‘pull-ups’ because they’re constantly pishing themselves.

      The rule as set is pretty straightfoward – MP’s and a majority at Westminster – we have been told that umpteen times.

      They pish themselves, because they have managed to engineer the idea, that it would be ‘undemocratic in Scotland’ – You’d need to prove that a majority, in a referendum, actually backed independence – but a referendum can never be held under the rules. Bwahahahaha!
      But who says that is the case – well Westminster would love that to be the case and the SNP want that to be the case.
      Hmm….

      Yes, absolutely, a straight shootout referendum has got to be the closest you can get to deciding ‘the will of the people’ and absolutely, that’s the least contested result.
      But it isn’t allowed under the rules and where, all over the world, it isn’t allowed under the rules – than a win that is allowed under the rules, is internationally accepted as legitimate.

      Where domestically such a thing is not accepted as legitimate, civil war breeds. Your question for today is; of the global, democratic decisions which resulted in civil wars – which do you reckon would have Scots picking up AK47’s?

      Well, for start, despite all the Russian interference (?) I canny nip doon the toon and pick up a couple of grenades and an Ak’47 with ma weekly shop fae Aldi.
      Curiously, a wee dude wi a couple of goats tae his name and no even the price o ma cooncil tax this year, can be tooled up tae fuck…?
      He must have saved up; last I looked, I could afford a few rounds (though Amazon dizny sell them) Mibbe that’s the Russian bit – you get a few rounds, he gets the rifle, if he gets shot – pick up the rifle ?

      Civil war in Scotland will consist of some major tutting –
      Brexit, the stripping of Holyrood’s powers and the selloff of the various NHS, would would, normally, globally, have seen Edinburgh like Mogadishu.

      We’ll clap on a Thursday, but meh… we don’t really give that much of a fuck.

      Yer point caller – Call it and ride it out.
      It’s the playbook of the USA and their poodles, including right now, Westminster – Call it, Do It, Ride it out, they’ll Suck it up – they’re Too soft.

      Anyway, I’m a busy man, gies a shout when we’re independent – I’ll probably not notice for a good while.
      Oh, aye, that’s how it works… wiz there no a referendum, naw? Really? Wiz there no meant to be?
      Aye but we’re independent noo wi the last election.
      Whit the cooncil wans?
      Naw,the ither wan?
      Oh right.
      Anyway, I’m getting ma hair done finally, the hairdressers are open noo – ma roots are a nightmare – see this Covid.
      Aye, I’m hoping I can get a flight oot next month tae see the grandweans.. aye, but ye’ll be in the cooncil queue noo tho eh?
      Eh? How but?
      Aye wi’ the Brexit.
      Aww awa tae fuk!
      Ur we no back in the EU then wi independence?
      No yet naw, they’re still fuckin aboot.
      Diz that mean its gauny cost me a fortune on ma mobile phoning hame fae the Don Bigote?
      Aye, but huv ye got an AK47?
      Is that like ma EHIC caird?
      Naw hahah, ye shoot people wi it…
      Naw, Where dae ye get thon?
      The Russians gie ye thum….

    287. A Person says:

      -WhoRattledYourCage at 10.18pm-

      Just for some light relief-

      My son used to work in a well-known wedding venue and occasionally the tables would have names like “Gaun Yersel” or “Pure Dead Brilliant”. The people at these events would invariably be incredibly snobbish and rude suburbanites.

    288. Breeks says:

      Me Bungo Pony says:
      23 July, 2020 at 12:24 am

      I never expected to be the subject of this kind of abuse from supposedly pro-indy posters who bizarrely want to take the SNP down when both they and independence are surging ahead in the polls. It is both self destructive and potentially suspect..

      You’re either very gullible or just a gaslighting bullshitter. People don’t want to take down the SNP, they want the SNP to stop fucking about and get on with the job it was elected to do and given multiple mandates to do it, which the SNP repeatedly squanders.

      We ‘malcontents’ were perfectly content when YES was marching on the front foot under Alex Salmond, and it’s because we want Independence so ardently that that Nicola Sturgeon’s abysmal lack of leadership is creating such deep rooted anger.

      We want an SNP which stands up for Scotland and protects Scotland Constitutional rights and interests, but the current SNP under Sturgeon capitulate and cave in to Westminster all of their own volition, and squander one opportunity after another.

      It isn’t the malcontents destroying the SNP, it’s the SNP’s dismal and gutless leadership and the stench of rotten conspiracy and collusion. The sooner they are gone, the sooner the SNP can be resuscitated as an organisation worth voting for, rather than an incompetent bunch of incompetent charlatans selling out Scotland.

      Even Northern Ireland with Stormont closed managed to secure a Backstop, International support, and rescued their European Citizenship. Scotland’s “Government” with an emphatic mandate from a constitutionally sovereign electorate couldn’t even negotiate it’s way into the discussions, and gave a Theresa May the green light to negotiate whatever shade of hard Brexit she wanted because she wouldn’t face an IndyRef2 because Sturgeon had telegraphed as much by arbitrarily declaring Scotland’s resistance to Brexit “paralysed” until she knew the details of Brexit. Fucking round of applause for that “statesmanship”.

      Theresa May’s Brexit negotiating team was a total farce, and Michel Barnier just had to turn up to be running circles around the British negotiators. The only success Theresa May’s Government could boost was outsmarting Nicola Sturgeon, who didn’t need any encouragement whatsoever to deliver Scotland bound and gagged, trussed up like hog roast ready for the spit.

      Please tell me why the SNP bothered to host a Westminster debate on the Claim of Right when it was clearly their intention to capitulate the very principle and forfeit all the strength of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty? Were they just being fucking hypocrites? Or why have they altered tac to abandon those principles?

      All they care about is “surging” ahead in the polls to the cheers of gullible idiots , despite the fact their own constitutional illiteracy has robbed Scottish Democracy of it’s sovereign integrity and potency, and they’re surging ahead in polls which Westminster can simply set aside and ignore because the SNP divorced Scottish democracy from Scottish constitutional sovereignty. Fuckwits.

      By my calculations, that’s about as close to catastrophic leadership as it is possible to come, and Scotland now requires emergency remedial measures to restore the Constitutional principles which have survived 300 years of this accursed Union, until the SNP under Sturgeon’s “brilliant leadership” inexcusably and unforgivably abandoned them.

      I would impeach the Scottish Government in a heartbeat for their negligence and inattention to Scotland’s Constitutional integrity. The damage they have done to the Nation’s interests is incalculable.

    289. ‘A Person says:
      23 July, 2020 at 3:26 am
      -WhoRattledYourCage at 10.18pm-

      Just for some light relief-

      My son used to work in a well-known wedding venue and occasionally the tables would have names like “Gaun Yersel” or “Pure Dead Brilliant”. The people at these events would invariably be incredibly snobbish and rude suburbanites.’

      That fits entirely. When Oasis were big in the mid-90s, the people who were the biggest, most vocal ‘fans’ of the band would sit in the pub I lived above in Falkirk, Firkins (now gone) and lustily and loudly sing along to the band’s songs they put on the jukebox. They were all very, very middle class, and a more annoying pack of obnoxious, braying pricks you could not have found. They were exact type of Damon Caesar!rn ironic mocknee ‘Park Life’ whimperers that the SNP is now producing. Cos they think that’s how the gosh-how-awful-Tarquin oiks behave and speak, being, as they are, cut off from any semblance of reality of deprivation. It’s pure condenscension, in a way, but mostly ignorance. And utterly hilarious and transparent, to anybody with half a brain. :p

    290. Sensibledave says:

      CBB 12.34

      You are indeed brilliant Cammy!

      No one else has produced so many comments ignored by so many, and read by so few!

    291. Sensibledave says:

      breastplate 4.51

      Err … semi finals of the World Cup?!? No Misery here matey!

      English football fans are very happy with the team, the way it now plays and the progress It has made.

      I know this ‘cause I is English!

      I do miss the days when Scotland had a competitive team though.

    292. Sensibledave says:

      Breastplate

      … and the kids teams are doing brilliantly too.

      And from a “stats” POV, England’s win rate is similar to a team that is 2nd or 3rd in the Premiership.

      All going very nicely thank you.

    293. Bill McLean says:

      You’re coming across as a baby again Sensible. Tell us please how Boris is going to save – is it the world? is it just this foul union, it it you? is it me? or is it just the usual bullshit? I don’t think we need you to tell us!

    294. Rm says:

      Speaking of arseholes, just listened to brandon lewis on about a bridge from Scotland to Ireland, they can’t afford face masks for hospitals and are trillions of pounds in debt, never heard so much rubbish coming out of someone’s mouth, this is what Scotland is putting up with, SNP politicians have to start speaking out.

    295. Walter Jones says:

      Breeks 4.39am

      Excellent post Breeks.

    296. Oneliner says:

      I hope that Boris sheds some light when he visits us today. It’s a pity I don’t have his itinerary.

    297. schrodingers cat says:

      Breeks says:
      Even Northern Ireland with Stormont closed managed to secure a Backstop, International support, and rescued their European Citizenship. Scotland’s “Government” with an emphatic mandate from a constitutionally sovereign electorate couldn’t even negotiate it’s way into the discussions, and gave a Theresa May the green light to negotiate whatever shade of hard Brexit she wanted because she wouldn’t face an IndyRef2 because Sturgeon had telegraphed as much by arbitrarily declaring Scotland’s resistance to Brexit “paralysed” until she knew the details of Brexit. Fucking round of applause for that “statesmanship”.
      ————————-

      except the dup negotiated fuck all. the ROI with the backing of the EU enforced the GFA. thats why NI is still in the CU/SM.
      even yer new isp couldnt have negotiated a deal with treeza.

      you are beginning to sound like the black knight from monty pythons holy grail “only a flesh wound guv”

      how can nicola be impeached? the uk doesnt have a constitution, such laws of impeachment which do exist in the uk derives from ancient constitutional convention in england. not scotland

      you’ve been watching too much fox news

    298. Walter Jones says:

      schrodingers cat 12.04am

      What a weirdo you are.

      You actually took the time to copy and paste every post from a contributor?

      I think you call that Stalking.

      There is something really really creepy about you Cat.

      An old Scottish term comes to mind:

      “There is a want with you”

    299. Bill McLean says:

      Oneliner – there will be no light – only somthing that rhymes with it! I suspect there will be sheds involved though!

    300. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Elmac (10.37) –

      Just a swift one to acknowledge your comment.

      Quite a few of us aulder Wingers are still reading, even if we don’t contribute much.

      One of these days the roasters, ego-rubbers and chronic farters will clear off and we’ll be able to have a decent discussion again.

      In the meantime, we should take heart from Tinto Chiels’s example – if the more malicious of the pests are reported then Rev does deal with them.

      😉

    301. Effijy says:

      Bradan Lewis on TV attempting to defend the laundered money stolen
      From Russia by the friends of Putin.

      One Russian has given the Tories £1.7 million so far.
      We know about wee Ruthless getting £20,000 from them
      and some Russians have given very nice wee jobs to Tories.

      Lewis says it’s all fine as they were able to buy British Citizenship?

      We have asylum seekers coming in who fear execution in the homeland.
      Although many are deported it seems you cannot be deported if you are
      A millionaire thief looking to buy a passport from a corrupt regime.

      Doesn’t sound like we are all in it together as equals does it?

      But let’s be clear, if you are Alex Salmond standing up for your sovereign nation
      and being ganged up against by all London Based wealthy parties to put you out
      Of work and destroy your reputation, you have no right to take a part time job with
      No strings attached presenting your own TV show interviewing the widest range of political viewpoints.

      One group is corrupt willing to stop democracy and punish the innocent and the other
      Is trying to earn a living legally while defending democracy.

      PS Wish I know from which stone Bojo the Clown was going to crawl out of today.
      I’d ensure he knew my thoughts about him.

      I expect he will be surrounded by police and agents and kept completely away from any members of the public and enthroned in a room with happy clappers with more money than sense or some poor
      Employees locked into their canteen to sit like dummies or be fired by their right wing boss.

    302. Big Jock says:

      The beginning of the troubles for Nicola. Soon this will be a tsunami – https://www.thenational.scot/news/18600671.joanna-cherry-calls-fm-publish-indy-scotland-policy-papers/

    303. Sinky says:

      the Union being discussed on BBC Radio Scotland Morning Call at 9 a.m.
      Contact details

      Sms 80295

      Email morningcallscotland [at] bbc [dot] co [dot] uk

      Facebook http://www.facebook.com/bbcradioscotland

      Twitter @bbcradioscot

      Email morningcallscotland [at] bbc [dot] co [dot] uk
      .

    304. Walter Jones says:

      English media telling us Johnson will visit that wee town called Scotland today.

      End of report.

      No details of places or who he will speak to.

      You can bet your bottom dollar that he will be surrounded by House Jocks and Butchers Aprons.

      Blackford is the SNP spokesman today.

      I’m sure he is on Valium or something, because every time I hear him he has to be the most uninspiring politician I have ever heard.

    305. Effijy says:

      This red herring that the Tories have pulled out of the Irish Sea,
      As N Ireland is being allowed to live within the EU, as requested
      and Scotland is not, there would have to be border posts with custom
      Checks.

      How could that happen when Boris says the UL has no borders?

    306. Contrary says:

      Well. We could be missing the point here – we know for sure that Westminster DID illegally interfere with the 2014 referendum, and the report shows us that Westminster is bought and paid for by Russian money – so maybe that’s what they’re saying: that there WAS Russian interference through their stooges at Westminster – maybe we do need an investigation? If I was carrying it out, I would start with the known quantities, the breaking of purdah, the weirdo made-up news reports by the BBC, and follow the money trail to see if it lead to Russia. Or any other nation. (Open minded, me).

      And that Leasky news report is interesting for its wording – GAME Twitter…. Where else have I heard the meme GAMING the system? Hmmm, now where was it? I wonder if it’s a favourite phrase of the integrity Initiative? GAME, GAMING, very similar, and not really a usual Scottish phrase, is it. Implying a not-necessarily illegal activity but in some way morally wrong – negative connotations, but mild so everyone can use it and be influenced by it. So I wonder where the proposal to create a political party in Scotland suddenly turned into GAMING the system meme that everyone is so fond of came from? (Evidence from credible open source material)

      FKs sake, are we so easily led?!

    307. Oneliner says:

      Further to the lack of clarity surrounding Boris’s ‘state’ visit.
      I have always been comfortable with my friends knowing my whereabouts, present or future. I am not aware of any enemies (fatal flaw, I know) but it is they who I would want to ‘keep guessing.’

      So that’s it, basically – the future of the union – ‘keep guessing’. I for one, am bored of mindgame politics.

    308. Effijy says:

      F*** me, Ian Blackford on Sky condemning anyone who appears on RT?
      He then goes on to day politicians should stick with broadcasters they can
      Trust like SKY?

      RT is a legal TV Station that has to follow UK broadcasting regulations.
      They provide jobs and different points of view to the other providers who
      Sit in Westminster’s pocket.

      The Tories condemn those not working but Alex Salmond shouldn’t be working
      The Tories say they believe in democracy but want to stop anyone with differing
      Points of view?

      The UK really makes me sick to the stomach.

    309. Big Jock says:

      Boris is throwing money at Shetland and Orkney. A bribe in the event of independence to try and keep them British. As we already know. Most of the oil is in those waters. Divide and conquer!

    310. Sinky says:

      Radio Scotland Covid and the Union phone in at 9 am 0808 592 9500

    311. Walter Jones says:

      Blackford has told Sky News that no SNP representative should appear on RTtv.

      And that they should stick to trusted broadcasters like Sky News.

      Jesus, has Blackford never heard that Sky News reporter James Mathews run Scotland into the ground?

      So there you have it, Blackford is ordering ALL SNP politicians to totally avoid appearing on the Alex Salmond show or any other show on RTtv.

    312. Sensibledave says:

      Bill

      … a bit touchy this morning Bill? I was merely responding to Breastplate’s obvs misunderstanding of the state of England’s National Football team. I know it irks you to see us doing so well! Some things are more important than politics and, for further evidence, we only need to see that the mighty and glorious West Ham united now sit safely in the Premiership (for at leats one more year).

    313. Big Jock says:

      Who cares about English football. Move on , it’s boring!

    314. Walter Jones says:

      Big Jock

      Here here regarding english football.

    315. ahundredthidiot says:

      Personally, I think RT is a bit of a joke – but no more or less than the rest of ’em.

      Worrying though, very worrying, is if the SNP are being whipped into not speaking to them.

      Is the SNP now joining that particular conspiracy theory? – not one I buy, but hey ho, it’s a free country (I think….)

    316. Walter Jones says:

      If Scotland is being forced to pay to watch foreign football, then nay I suggest Spanish football.

      Why are we being forced to pay to view english football?

    317. Bob Mack says:

      Delighted to see Joann Cherry focusing on Indy in the National. She is saying what a lot of us are feeling, that time is running out to bring an intransigent Boris to heel and pave the way for Indyref2 ,before it’s too late.

      She knows the leadership are asleep at the wheel,and she is one smart lady.

    318. Famous15 says:

      Howsa about instead of or in addition to writing here y’all writing to the Papers on this and Indy.

      NOT you 77th. You “stand easy”.

      Keep the message simple and best keep NS and AS out of it for now.

      Simple message is the “strength of the UK” is throttling us and we are paying the UK too much for not much. The UK are borrowing unwisely.

      Further it is normal for a country to be independent and not many if any of the countries having gained independence in the last century are crying out for a hug from,and a return to the bosom or teat of their former colonial power. NOT ONE!

    319. Bob Mack says:

      @Dave,

      The mighty and glorious West Ham, with a Scottish manager who saved them from relegation,

    320. Fireproofjim says:

      Big Jock
      Don’t worry about the oil around Orkney and Shetland.
      If the islands separated from Scotland, under international maritime law, they would only have a commercial zone of twelve miles of sea. Just like the Channel Islands.
      There are no oil fields within twelve miles of Orkney or Shetland.

    321. Big Jock says:

      I once heard a conversation on Talk Sport go like this. An irate English football fan bemoaned the lack of English managers in the Premiership.

      The presenter said yes remember the days when we had Dalgleish, George Graham and Graham Souness. That to me sums up why the English and their media are so despised by Scots. They claim every other nation as their own.

      England is Britain!

    322. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian B 8.28: to prove your point, it was in fact one of those “aulder Wingers”, who has spent memorable times in Jamaica 😉 , who noticed that particular punctution trait about two months ago and mentioned it to me.

      Btw, Milquetoast Ian Blackford was very poor on Radio 4 this morning: Nick Robinson steam-rollered him with ease.

    323. Big Jock says:

      I will never understand why so many Orcadians and Shetlanders would rather be run from London than Edinburgh or Scotland. A lot proclaim their Viking heritage , but then vote to be run by England.

      At any level surely Scotland is as much part of their heritage as Norway. Baffling!

    324. Walter Jones says:

      Boris visit to that wee toon called Scotland,

      He will probably FLY into RAF Lossiemouth, meet the House Jocks, then Helicopter over to Shetland, helicopter back to Lossiemouth.

      Jump into to plane and back to London.

      He will fly over the top of all of Scotland’s major cities.

      Unionist coward.

    325. Robert graham says:

      Why are the front bench of the SNP at Westminster so opposed to RT ,
      anyone here have any proof on any instances of Russian State Propaganda being pushed on RT I haven’t come across any of the brainwashing tactics the English government backed up to their shame the SNP reps in Westminster have been condemning,
      maybe Blackford agrees Nicolas daily updates should also be abandoned , who the duck is he working for ? If it’s us he’s making a great job of bloody hiding it
      I have watched Alex’s show on RT since it started he bends over backwards to make sure he avoids any direct condemnation of the English government , he has a wide variety of guests with opposing political opinions and gives them time to give their opinion on various subjects, what has Blackford to fear ? , does he fear Alex is he or was he aware of the vendetta against Alex , it looks like he would rather be seen as opposing RT and agreeing with a right wing English government than being seen as neutral about Alex’s involvement it’s hard to figure the man out .

    326. Bill McLean says:

      A”bit touchy” – Sensible grow up! I couldn’t tell a fooball match from lacrosse and could care less! It just surprises me that someone who decides they are “sensible” thinks it important enough to brag about a game! Self-praise used to be no recommendation. I remember my Dad many years ago talking about West Ham when he was forced to walk from Fife to London for work – I thought it was something you ate in London. So just grow up and do try to live up to your own assessment of yourself1

    327. Gary45% says:

      A wee question to the Yoons.
      WM idiot on LBC this morning, muttered some garbage about the benefits of a strong “onion” during the crisis. Scotland getting 4.6 billion in Barnett monies.
      I am sure WM has spent 360 billion so far, does that sound like a fair distribution? as the “normal” is 8-10% to Scotland.
      Equal family? Delusional Yoonery.

    328. Robert graham says:

      Idiot on about – RT a bit of a joke how so I ask ? .
      Or ar you Blackford in disguise ? .
      Just Asking.

    329. Dan says:

      @Me Bungo Pony

      I see you are choosing to avoid answering my question to you.
      You seem awfy quick and tediously repetitive in calling folk “malcontents” if they differ from your one trick pony view, which rather stifles any debate.
      This is a Scottish political site so there will be a range of views expressed from numerous individuals.
      It’s not helpful stating that anyone adding their constructive criticism of the SNP’s policies or strategies is attempting to destroy the Party.

      You say you’ve been to just a few Branch meetings over the years. Do you actively campaign on the doors? Some of us do and it helps if we have a straightforward message and aren’t having to defend crap policies the electorate don’t want that our Party seems intent on implementing at this rather inappropriate time in the greater scheme of things.

      Being an activist I am very interested in understanding why the polls are where they are as it helps greatly knowing what motivates folk to hold the views they do.
      I’ve often stated Health is the easiest subject to discuss whilst out campaigning because everyone at some point either directly or indirectly requires themselves, their family, or their friends to use the free at point of need services we currently have.

      You mention you work in a lab for the NHS(Scotland?). If you are still working and not furloughed due to covid, would you raise the matter of the recent votes in Westminster with your colleagues to see if they are aware of the implications of said votes highlighted in the previous article on here?

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/sailing-away/

    330. Gary45% says:

      Sounds like James O’Brien is talking about Scottish Indy, show starts at 10 am on LBC.

    331. Baxter 1967 says:

      Let’s imagine this conversation today
      Boris: Well Nicola having been round your lovely wee country speaking to your folk I now sense that a section 30 is the right and proper democratic thing to bequeath. However in the best democratic spirit I sense your folk are seriously worried about your Gender Recognition Act , which I of coursed binned in my government.
      If you bin yours I’ll hand over a section 30. Deal or no deal?

      My guess would be no deal.

    332. Walter Jones says:

      I wonder if the people of england think that we all live inside RAF Lossiemouth?

      Because the english media never name the actual town or city in Scotland, they just call the place “Scotland”.

      So maybe our english neighbours think Scotland is a town surrounded by a big fence and a runway running through the middle of it.

    333. Effijy says:

      Do you remember the uprisings in Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 1950’s and 60’s
      When Westminster raged at Russia for not giving these nations independence and full control
      Of their economies?

      Do you remember when the Soviet Union was breaking up and Westminster rejoiced that satellite
      Nations like Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia rightfully took their Independence, as they always should have, well that were the morals an idealism of our government for generations and when it comes to Scotland, forget all that crap.

      We control you, we will bless you dry, you will do only what we say and we will remove the small powers that you do have!

      It’s all about the money.

    334. Republicofscotland says:

      So the British nationalists messiah Boris Johnson is in Scotland today, he’s to meet with the military (probably planning anti-independence ops) and his Scottish branch manager Jackson Carlaw.

      He has no plans to meet with Scotland’s First minister, I suppose Johnson doesn’t want to be booed at again outside Bute House as he was the last time he visited Scotland, still its a bit cheeky for the head of a foreign state to sneak into another country without meeting that country’s own head of state to push an agenda that’s detriment to that state. Press reports say that Johnson will also give a talk on the possibility of a Celtic bridge. Look out for some announcements of investments in Scotland by Johnson, you know the kind, given by one hand and taken away later by the other hand.

      Tomorrow Johnson will be in power as PM for a whole year, a year laced with mistakes, gaffs, financial negligence, poor pandemic management, and bigoted and racist off the cuff remarks.

    335. mike cassidy says:

      Re Russia

      Its time to accept the SNP leadership is now part of the establishment

      And if this enables a few digs at Alex Salmond

      They probably see that as a political bonus

      https://twitter.com/MrMalky/status/1285971166868525056

    336. Effijy says:

      Good Morning TV showing Boris heralding the new trade deals available
      By explaining how we can now import Australia’s favourite biscuit, the Tim Tam.

      They are nice biscuits fine but do we need biscuits to travel 12,000 miles?

      Will this journey help the environment, will it make biscuits cheaper?

      Could a better deal for down under biscuits be done as part of a 28 nation EU agreement?

    337. Republicofscotland says:

      Senior Tory government figures are concerned about Sturgeon’s daily Covid-19 briefings on the BBC, even though they’ve been scaled back, that they might be increasing the support for Scottish independence. The Scottish Tory branch are furious as well, particularly Murdo Fraser.

      Fraser, never directly elected as a MSP said it was absolute nonsense, that the BBC should continue to broadcast the sessions.

      Well Murdo Scots contribute close to £300 million pounds a year to the BBC through tv licence fees, yet in coverage we get no where near that in return. Scots watching those briefings which most people think are useful in these very stressful and worrying times, is small beer compared to what the media covers on non Scottish subjects.

    338. Big Jock says:

      Walter – The English view Scotland as a region like Yorkshire. In fact many don’t realise just how big Scotland is. 2/3 the size of England. They don’t understand that as a nation we have several very distinctive accents. They just think we all speak like Jimmy Krankie.

      In fact if you view Scotland including it’s islands and sea borders. It’s actually bigger than England and more geographically distant.

      In other words. They haven’t a clue about us.

    339. Big Jock says:

      Boris takes all our oil and whisky revenues and then gives us some pocket money, as if it’s England’s gift to Scotland.

      When will people wake up!

    340. Republicofscotland says:

      Johnson really does loathe us Scots, in this unearthed 2001 Telegraph column by Johnson, he derides and mocks Scots, our language, and devolution. Johnson also rails at free personal care for the elderly and no tuition fees.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18599995.boris-johnsons-views-devolution-clear-unearthed-column/

    341. Walter Jones says:

      Bug Jock 1915am

      That is why they tilt their weather maps.

      They suffer from a massive inferiority complex.

      They recently done a geographical survey with people in England regarding where they thought the Scotland/England border was.

      And the majority pointed to the border being across the Clyde/Forth valley.

      They couldn’t believe the Scottish border was way down there on the Solway Firth.

    342. Big Jock says:

      Walter – I worked for an insurance firm and was trying to arrange a recovery of a truck for a client. I told the English recovery call centre agent the truck was in Inverness. She told me she had a garage in Ayr :” Is that near Inverness” she said.

      Best one was an adjuster booking a flight from Aberdeen to Shetland. The person who approves expenses questioned why he needed a flight, as the Shetland isles were showing just above Wick on her map. Why couldn’t he drive and get a ferry. She didn’t understand that she was looking at an insert transposed onto the map to fit it.

    343. Colin Alexander says:

      A challenge must come to Sturgeon’s control of the party and indy movement. Or it’s time to walk away from the SNP and pull the Persian rug from under their feet.

      The only way to do that is make it clear, give the SNP clear warnings, we won’t vote for them if Sturgeon remains in charge.

      If Sturgeon won’t go, we must boycott the SNP at the ballot box. Give our votes to those who will fight for independence.

      Will that get us indy? No. But, rewarding those who are happy to have Scotland as a colony is the last thing you should do.

      “But, that’ll let the Britnats in”, says those who just don’t get it.

      The Britnats are in. They’ve always been in. Devolution was always Blair’s con.

      Westminster rules: Westminster’s rules.

      The only difference now, is Boris’ Tories aren’t bothering to pretend Scotland has democracy, as they have the measure of Sturgeon’s SNP: weak as water.

    344. Sensibledave says:

      Bill

      …. it wasn’t me that raised the subject of the England Football!

    345. Walter Jones says:

      Have the English Establishment got shares in this food outlet Pret de Manger?

      What is it with this place, why is it mentioned so much?

      I have never been Inside one, I don’t even know where one is.

      So why does it get so much free publicity?

      And why are the english finding it so difficult to understand the lastest rules in face masks.

      You would think they were the first country in the world to introduce thus law

      Or are they just thick?

      Also heard the Royal Albert Hall might not open again.

      No more flag waving englanders singing Land of Hope and Glory.

      What a bummer!!!

    346. Mike d says:

      Big jock 9.07am and walter 9.09. All the years i’ve lived in england, i’ve never ever once watched an english football match, live or on telly, not even remotely interested…..over hyped,overpaid sh**e.

    347. Colin Alexander says:

      But, no indy party can deliver indy through the British ballot box. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.

      Westminster rules by the Crown in Parliament. MPs exercise the power of the English Crown. Few of those MPs are elected by the people of Scotland. So, they’ll always be outnumbered, outvoted. That’s the way it’s designed to be.

      The ballot box can help establish the will of the sovereign people of Scotland but Scotland has to exercise and assert sovereign power.

      Reject and denounce the “sovereignty” of the English Crown and UK MPs over the sovereign people of Scotland. Assert the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

    348. Mike d says:

      Travelled regularly to the east end of glasgow though.

    349. Willie says:

      I under note a piece by Iain Lawson that very constructively comments on the need for debate on the logic of a list party.

      THAT LIST VOTE DEBATE

      Is a really difficult topic. My view is that this is understandable. There is much to debate. Strong arguments complicated by what seems to me to be very low tolerance by some to listen or attempt to listen to the “other side”. It is further complicated by timing. What might seem logical and sensible at this moment might change in the months between now at next May. Those potential changes could change the argument in a significant way. One of the interesting things about that point, which is made most often by those who support the “both votes SNP” argument is that it’s always made in a way that suggests SNP support could. well fall away. I would argue that what evidence I can see at the moment suggests things could well change between now and next May, but in the SNP’s favour, allowing even more political dominance than the mid 50’s currently being enjoyed.

      Let’s start with the obvious. Anyone who expects the SNP to accommodate another list Party-is living in cloud cuckoo land. That is not how politics work. No Party endorses another that could prove a rival at some future stage. Secondly the electoral rules would rule out any such list Party contesting the election if there was the slightest evidence of collusion between two different Parties. So the SNP will do everything it can to stop the development of any new pro Indy party and will, as usual, contest every list seat available. Both votes SNP as a strategy suits the SNP. It leaves them as the uncontested main pro Indy party in the Parliament, probably forming the Government, despite the fact that the electoral system was specifically designed to stop that happening.

      It would be wise at this stage to highlight just how incredibly unusual the politics of Scotland are. You would struggle to find any Country, anywhere in the World where any Party, in a multi Party system, enjoys public support over so many years, at the levels that the SNP have enjoyed. The more so that they have been in Government for the last thirteen years. It truly is quite remarkable and testament to what good quality Government has been delivered. The question therefore is not is both votes SNP good for the SNP , IT CLEARLY IS, THE QUESTION IS WHETHER IT IS GOOD FOR FURTHERING INDEPENDENCE?

      Here the arguments are not so clear. The fact that this argument now rages suggest that a level of dissatisfaction exists over how the SNP have progressed the Independence issue since 2014. The Plan A tactic expecting Westminster to crumble in the face of mandate after mandate seems to be pie in the sky. Polls show conclusively that voters do not believe it will ever happen. Worryingly for the SNP the same polls show that same opinion even amongst SNP voters alone. The leadership thus far seem prepared to ignore this and are very hostile to considering alternative strategies. This has led to considerable dissatisfaction amongst the grassroots Yes campaign, comfortably existing both within and out with actual SNP members themselves. I would argue that this is the overwhelming reason that this list vote argument has emerged. In my view it is the SNP themselves who are responsible for it doing so.

      Another criticism I have is that the SNP, despite the huge number of elected MP’s and MSP’s seem to suffer from very poor communication with the grassroots of their own Party and wider YES movement. Again I think this is another main reason the list vote argument has emerged. If you want to keep people on board you need to expend a lot of energy and work communicating to them why they should and listening to their opinions. This has not been done. Argue amongst yourselves why, but it is a fact. They have been looking for a lead on how they should take the Independence campaign forward. It has not been delivered, indeed many question if any such strategy exists?

      You will have realised by now how complicated this argument is and we have not got to the really complicated bits yet. The argument is not the same in every part of the country. A good two votes SNP strategy can be justified in the borders. In the entire central belt it would likely be just throwing your list vote away to use it on the SNP based on current polls which suggest the SNP will win virtually every constituency seat thereby devaluing any SNP lists votes to a meaningless level. SNP list votes would be effectively futile.

      A further serious and complicated factor is which list Party offers the best vehicle likely to be successful in gathering sufficient votes to get to the level where their winning seats starts displacing Unionist MSP’s in significant numbers?

      At this stage it is probably easier to state what will not work rather than pick a fovourite.

      A myriad selection of list parties all claiming to be the best placed to win seats will only dilute the votes between so many none will reach the threshold to win any.

      An overtly left wing RISE equivalent is a non starter as was evidenced by the results last time.

      Any list party requires good candidates, quality leadership, preferably with some experience and be well funded with a reasonable organisation in each area.

      I think all the above creates the case for YES SCOTLAND itself to take on the task. I know it was disbanded as a national organisation but many individual yes organisations exist across the country that could quickly reform a National Yes Scotland. Under the leadership of a nationally known figure, Alex Salmond or Lesley Riddoch for instance, could give it the recognition and brand name known to the public to be successful, highly successful. Such an organisation could quickly attract the required funding. This is by far my favoured route, indeed I think it is the only route that will succeed in any serious way. It would be for instance the ideal receptacle to collect the list votes of the 40% of Labour voters who support Independence but are reluctant, for whatever reason, to vote SNP.

      So where I stand is I would welcome the opportunity to having a credible alternative home for my second vote BUT it does not yet exist. I think the situation is fluid and the case both for and against could change dependent on the political standings in Scotland. Late Autumn would be my choice for such a Party to emerge, having some organisation already in many parts of the country offers this luxury to YES SCOTLAND rather than any other that would be starting from scratch.

      What tempts me? The recognition that Unionists gamed the electoral system from the off. It delights me to think that the game could be turned back on them. The thought that not just having a small pro Indy majority but a very large one would have great weight internationally in strengthening the case for Independence and chances of international recognition for whatever measures are needed to overcome Westminster’s refusal to countenance any referendum route.

      I apologise for not dealing with the Greens as an alternative route. People know who they are and what they have done with the list support they enjoyed from Indy supporting voters last time round. People can determine if they did enough to justify that support again.

      Likewise the lack of comment on ISP reflects my lack of knowledge about them. I think they will need to become much better known urgently and convince many about adequate levels of funding and personalities involved before any level of confidence can develop about their prospects. If anyone in the ISP wants to send me information that they think might help convince me I am open to considering it.

      So the only thing I can say is this, it needs a serious alternative to emerge before there is any real chance of it being successful. That has not happened yet.

      I hope it does, it would energise and focus minds within the SNP about how best to further Independence as a by product and that would be very welcome as well.

      Presented with an electoral pro Indy challenge it would be logical for the SNP to triangulate that challenge away by toughening up on their own Independence strategy and that would be a win for Scotland into the bargain.

      A word of caution to SNP SUPPORTERS who support a twin vote SNP Strategy, be careful with your language and your insults. It is not clever to suggest that those who take a different view are thick, or somehow ("Tractor" - Ed)s to the cause of Independence. The votes you are threatening when you do this are their first votes that are currently going to the SNP. You endanger that by your own intolerance. You would be wise to recognise that, by all means debate, but without the smears and insults.

      If we can all manage that then it’s a welcome debate as far as I am concerned.

    350. Republicofscotland says:

      A very good article by Joanna Cherry on how we go about obtaining independence. Cherry points out that the British government could abolish Holyrood anytime they wanted to, but that would increase the support for independence. Instead they intend to emasculate Holyrood post-Brexit no deal.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18600671.joanna-cherry-calls-fm-publish-indy-scotland-policy-papers/

    351. Breastplate says:

      Sensibledave,
      I apologise for suggesting England have been underachieving like Scotland for decades and I’m grateful for pointing out the success of reaching the semi final of the World Cup and destroying tournament big guns on the way there like….er, I’ll come back to you on that.

      I’m also sure that they will reach such dizzy heights again so once again I accept that you are correct and that England aren’t quite as crap at Scotland.

    352. Breastplate says:

      Panama!
      I knew it would come to me.

    353. Breastplate says:

      And Columbia, you guys beat them as well.

    354. Sensibledave says:

      Breastplate

      … as the saying goes, you can only beat those that are put in front of you (unless your Scotland then, seemingly inevitably, you wont).

      Anyway I accept your apology and I am pleased that I have another “convert” as I carry on with my mission to educate and inform.

    355. robbo says:

      Walter Jones says:
      23 July, 2020 at 9:55 am
      I wonder if the people of england think that we all live inside RAF Lossiemouth?

      Because the english media never name the actual town or city in Scotland, they just call the place “Scotland”.

      So maybe our english neighbours think Scotland is a town surrounded by a big fence and a runway running through the middle of it.

      —————-

      You still don’t get this trolling game do you.Whether you be a brit nat, a yoon or Scottish dawn.

      Most of the married personnel don’t live on the base either,never have done ya tumshie. The singly’s are just there for good time like any other base. Most of them don’t give two hoots about indy either.Many love it there,That’s the Scots,Welsh and the English personnel,which doesn’t go much above 2-3 thousand.I was one of the Scots one’s in the 80’s based there and spent most of my time in ruks with fishermen cos they were paranoid about their women falling for good looking blokes who didn’t smell of crabs!

      So shut the fuck up and go back to your lair ya clown.

    356. Daisy Walker says:

      @ ‘mr thms says:
      23 July, 2020 at 1:30 am
      The Russia Report is fake news unlike..

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-53500943

      “Royal Bank of Scotland today loses its brand status, to become merely a part of NatWest Group plc

      Customers will notice little change, but the symbolism is big, in repairing the reputational damage from the 2008 crash

      It’s not the only one to have lost either corporate clout or its brand. Clydesdale Bank has only a few months left, as it becomes Virgin Money”

      Looks like the issue of ‘Scottish’ banks in an independent Scotland will be more nuanced, whenever the next referendum happens..’

      During Indy ’14 I took a ball point pen to £5,£10, and £20 notes and at every face I drew a speech bubble saying ‘I’m Voting YES’…. the Queen was particularly supportive.

      Course these new plastic notes will need a different type of pen… I might start now actually – YES for our NHS

    357. Walter Jones says:

      Robbo

      You seem to be Mr Angry this morning.

      Did somebody steal your favourite Nicola Sturgeon poster?

      You come across as quite abusive sir.

      I hope the Rev is keeping an eye on your angry outbursts.

      Is it because you and the rest of the Sturgeon supporters are fighting a losing battle?

    358. defo says:

      Has there been a sighting of the Lesser Spotted Dick yet?

    359. Walter Jones says:

      As far as I know, the Lossiemouth area is inhabited by foreigners.

      Not many Scots around.

    360. Ottomanboi says:

      Big Jock 10:15
      There are bits of England that used to be Scottish.
      We’d like them back Boris? As you don’t give a fig about them anyway.
      We might have a Scotia Irredenta movement.
      Worth a punt next time BritState threatens to grab Orkney & Shetland.
      Think we’ve had enough of polite politicking.

    361. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I cannot help but think, what we really need today is – that Boris Johnson, while up here, should threaten to close-down Holyrood, unless the SNP government becomes more Union-minded.

      Maybe, just maybe, a threat to their nice little earners there could persuade the “Scottish” Labour, “Scottish” Conservative and “Scottish ” Liberal-Democrats to realise, London is their enemy, not the SNP, and they should perhaps be a bit more-independent thmselves, like agreeing to a Holyrood-run Referendum.

      Even after independence, there will be a place for political parties, other than the SNP, in an independent Scotland. If Holyrood is closed and it’s back to London rule – the opposition party members at Holyrood are immediately unemployed, not just the SNP members.

    362. CameronB Brodie says:

      defo
      Is that you on the wind-up again, prick?

    363. Famous15 says:

      Boris made Orkney great again.

      Aye right!

    364. Beaker says:

      @Alec Lomax says:
      23 July, 2020 at 11:19 am
      “People’s front of Judea syndrome.”

      I thought it was the Judean People’s Front…

      Is Boris still up here? I thought Gove might be here as well given the drizzle. Hard to tell the difference when he speaks. How about inviting both of them to the next AUOB march? Would be interesting.

    365. defo says:

      No Spammy, but if it bothers you, feel free to paranoiaway.
      Since your just up… apparently BJ is on Scottish soil today.

    366. Walter Jones says:

      What does Scotland need England for?

      What have they got that we need to survive?

      I’m sure we could build any factory or office block or clothes factory that England says it exports to Scotland.

      Independence would create so many jobs around Scotland, from infrastructure to banking.

      The list is endless.

      So when the english tell us we need them to survive, ask them to explain exactly what they have that we couldnt have for ourselves.

    367. CameronB Brodie says:

      defo
      It’s just that you’ve already shown your hostility towards me, so I thought you were just being true to form.

      Philosophical Explorations
      An International Journal for the Philosophy of Mind and Action Volume 21, 2018 – Issue 3
      Self-knowledge, belief, ability (and agency?)

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13869795.2018.1426779

    368. K1 says:

      Tinto, me n that friend spoke of this months ago, I also am one of the auld commenters who reported it yesterday…oh…and it’s back again for those who don’t notice these things, it’s trying awfy hard to disguise it’s punctual tick though…without success. 😉

    369. Big Jock says:

      Walter I asked my unionist father in law what England had. His answer with a straight face was:”London”.

      I rolled my eyes in despair!

    370. Oneliner says:

      @Mike d

      Yeah, Shettleston Juniors were always good value.

    371. Effijy says:

      Serial Liar Boris says he will give the Scottish Islands.

      Why that’s is 10 times the wealth that Boris himself has
      and it’s not as if Scotland has many islands?

    372. Effijy says:

      To follow on from Boris giving our islands access to
      Another £50 Million of Debt.

      There are 900 Scottish Islands who can share in it, if it ever existed?

      London’s St Pancras Railway Station has spent Circa £850 Million
      On its refurbishment.

      Sound equal and fair to you?

      Are you in it all together?

    373. CameronB Brodie says:

      Just the ticket. Full text.

      Philosophical Explorations
      An International Journal for the Philosophy of Mind and Action
      Volume 12, 2009 – Issue 2: ACTION, RESPONSIBILITY, AND BELIEF

      Introduction: responsibility for action and belief

      Research on moral responsibility and the related problem of free will is among the liveliest areas in contemporary analytical philosophy. Traditionally, these problems have been dealt with in connection with actions and decisions. More recently, they also have been extended to beliefs, and this extension has thrown some more light on the more traditional concerns….

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13869790902838456

    374. Willie says:

      Where is the Toxic Turd today.

      Smuggled into some secure military base or other secret location to be surrounded by a selected audience and tame journos, we’ll have to wait till tonight till we get the media releases about how well received Hiding in some military base surrounded by selected audience and tame journalists we’ll have to wait till tonight to hear BBC’s reports on the Turd’s visit.

      A taster this morning was a ‘Union Bridge ‘ over to Ireland. That’ll be as real as the 13 frigates on the Clyde. And meanwhile Scotch whisky sales to the USA have slumped by -30% due to the Turd’s pal Donald putting a 25% import tax on whisky.

    375. dakk says:

      Probably not much currency in defending Russia or RT in trying to convert soft NOs to YES.

      I’m sure Scot gov know Vladimir Putin and the Russian state are no threat to Scotland.

      Very much unlike the English state has always been.

    376. A Person says:

      “The Union Bridge”. Man, if I was a Tory I’d be sitting in a padded room screaming at Johnson.

      It would be nigh-on impossible to build and if it was, would cost tens of billions. For what purpose? To link us with the nutters of Ulster (I’m married to one, so I know what they’re like!!)

      All anyone up here will see is that posh buffoon swan about and talk about building a big toy. Just an utter, utter arse.

    377. Ottomanboi says:

      “My friends, as I have discovered myself, there are no disasters, only opportunities and indeed, opportunities for fresh disasters”.
      Boris Johnson.

      It is a true saying that “One falsehood leads easily to another”.
      Cicero

      Beware of Englishmen, even when bearing gifts.
      After Virgil.

    378. defo says:

      A small Scottish island.

      “I see we’re in line for getting some of our money back from London Dougal ”

      Dougal, eyebrow lifted to Smithesque heights.
      “What’s rule no.1 when dealing with the Tory Hamish?”

      Hamish,reflexively.
      “Ask for cash. Up front”

    379. Gary45% says:

      LBC presenter on now talking about Indy. Two presenters on the trot, the yoons must be bricking it.

    380. Ottomanboi says:

      Johnson made promises to the people of N England, high speed trains, Northern Powerhouse etc.
      Now we have promises to Orkney/ShetlandHebrides and a bridge to Ireland.
      Whose money? Covid has probably eaten up all the spare cash and the full reckoning hasn’t been calculated yet. Print some extra dosh? Ya’ll need a ocean of notional ink bro….

    381. Bill McLean says:

      Sensible at 1033 sorry for my late response but I knew you wouldn’t disappoint – very weak reply. “It wasn’t me Sir – not your sensible boy”. I read similar rubbish from you about sport a few weeks ago. Laughed so much i’ve forgotten the detal!

    382. jfngw says:

      At least Boris Johnson’s handlers are on the ball, just make sure his plane only has a back door.

      https://twitter.com/bridgesforindy/status/1286266764628832256

    383. Gary45% says:

      Tory Bowie on at the end of the LBC segment, lying about “once in a generation”.
      A lying Tory?!
      No surprise.

    384. Sensibledave says:

      Bill

      … as always, where appropriate, and when I can be bothered, I will stick up for my country folk, my country and our football team … when I spot lazy sideswipes based upon jingoistic BS!

    385. CameronB Brodie says:

      Is that the Tories looking to bend the law again, to suite themselves? Not that much of a surprise.

      Philosophical Explorations
      An International Journal for the Philosophy of Mind and Action Volume 12, 2009 – Issue 2: ACTION, RESPONSIBILITY, AND BELIEF

      Power and moral responsibility

      Abstract
      Our moral responsibility for our actions seems to depend on our possession of a power to determine for ourselves what actions we perform – a power of self-determination. What kind of power is this?

      The paper discusses what power in general might involve, what differing kinds of power there might be, and the nature of self-determination in particular. A central question is whether this power on which our moral responsibility depends is by its nature a two-way power, involving a power over alternatives or a freedom to do otherwise.

      Criticism is made of various attempts to understand self-determination in one-way terms, whether as a capacity for rationality (McDowell) or as a form of voluntariness (Frankfurt). It is argued in particular that Frankfurt’s arguments to show that moral responsibility does not depend on a freedom to do otherwise beg the question against his opponents.

      Keywords:
      moral responsibility, freedom; rationality, voluntariness, action, blame

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13869790902838480

    386. Tinto Chiel says:

      @K1: yes, whackamole syndrome as expected from our wee pal but as Tony would say, “Wotyagonnado?”

      Miffed we haven’t received our Alert Reader badges, actually.

      @Ottomanboi 11.26: Scotia Irredenta as far south as the Rere Cross on Stainmore? Any views? 🙂

    387. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Tories represent out-dated and anti-social beliefs, but will do all in their powers to maintain inherited privilege. It’s just their nature.

      Full text.

      International Feminist Journal of Politics
      Volume 22, 2020 – Issue 1
      Centering knowledge from the margins: our embodied practices of epistemic resistance and revolution

      Introduction
      The histories and knowledges of marginalized communities are the histories and knowledges of the majority of the world. The creation, curation, and dissemination of these knowledges by scholars and activists of marginalized communities require significant forms of courage, resistance, and allyship.

      How do Indigenous, feminist, queer, and anti-caste scholars and activists ensure that the rich and textured histories of our peoples get told with nuance? How do we work within our own communities and with allies from other communities to build a significant corpus of marginalized knowledges?

      How do these knowledges come to be translated, exchanged, or consumed online without their rich diversity and plurality being co-opted or simplified?

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14616742.2019.1701515

    388. Willie says:

      Ah ha, the Toxic Turd is surfacing in Orkney.

      Maybe they are going to get a ‘ Union Bridge ‘ too.

      And there we have it folks. Unicorns, frigates, gian causeways, the Tooth Fairy cometh

    389. Walter Jones says:

      Big Jock

      England have NOTHING that Scotland couldn’t have herself.

    390. Bill McLean says:

      Sensible at 0206 – I hope you are not accusing me of any of those “lazy sideswipes”. I don’t care enough about your comments or country to be that bothered but I am with you that we should all stick up for our country, that is if we are allowed to. To me your country is the same as every other country – sometimes to be respected, others times not! “Sensible” you are not – but you are typical of a type, and bragging is not a nice look for a grown up!

    391. Iain More says:

      The ("Tractor" - Ed)s are getting desperate and the SNP are being craven again.

    392. Iain More says:

      There were irregularities in the vote – 800,000 feckin postal votes in a country the size of Scotland, postal votes heavily in favour of a No Vote and the SNP is sill cravenly silent on the issue.

    393. Me Bungo Pony says:

      see you are choosing to avoid answering my question to you.
      You seem awfy quick and tediously repetitive in calling folk “malcontents” if they differ from your one trick pony view, which rather stifles any debate.
      This is a Scottish political site so there will be a range of views expressed from numerous individuals.
      It’s not helpful stating that anyone adding their constructive criticism of the SNP’s policies or strategies is attempting to destroy the Party.

      You say you’ve been to just a few Branch meetings over the years. Do you actively campaign on the doors? Some of us do and it helps if we have a straightforward message and aren’t having to defend crap policies the electorate don’t want that our Party seems intent on implementing at this rather inappropriate time in the greater scheme of things.

      Being an activist I am very interested in understanding why the polls are where they are as it helps greatly knowing what motivates folk to hold the views they do.
      I’ve often stated Health is the easiest subject to discuss whilst out campaigning because everyone at some point either directly or indirectly requires themselves, their family, or their friends to use the free at point of need services we currently have.

      You mention you work in a lab for the NHS(Scotland?). If you are still working and not furloughed due to covid, would you raise the matter of the recent votes in Westminster with your colleagues to see if they are aware of the implications of said votes highlighted in the previous article on here?

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/sailing-away/

    394. Me Bungo Pony says:

      Ignore the above post. It published before I could modify it.

    395. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Dan
      “I see you are choosing to avoid answering my question to you”.

      I’m not. I just reckoned I’d already answered it in other posts.
      —————————
      “You seem awfy quick and tediously repetitive in calling folk “malcontents” if they differ from your one trick pony view, which rather stifles any debate”.

      “Malcontent” is simply a catch-all and accurate description of most of the site’s population. It means “a person who is dissatisfied and rebellious”. It is neither meant as slur or a compliment. It’s just a thing.
      —————————
      “This is a Scottish political site so there will be a range of views expressed from numerous individuals. It’s not helpful stating that anyone adding their constructive criticism of the SNP’s policies or strategies is attempting to destroy the Party”.

      I don’t see much “constructive criticism”. It is mostly a visceral hatred of Nicola Sturgeon, a desire to (at the VERY least) give the SNP a bloody nose and a reflexly abusive response to anyone who disagrees. All with the, to me, bonkers assumption it will get us independence quicker. It won’t. It would put independence off the table for decades; perhaps forever.
      ——————————
      “You say you’ve been to just a few Branch meetings over the years. Do you actively campaign on the doors? Some of us do and it helps if we have a straightforward message and aren’t having to defend crap policies the electorate don’t want that our Party seems intent on implementing at this rather inappropriate time in the greater scheme of things”.

      I am not a “joiner” kind of person. I only joined the SNP because unionists were slagging off their flagging membership at the time …. ironically. As to unpopular policies, every party has that problem. Ask the Tories. If everyone got a party that just represents their particular issues and concerns and nothing else….. there’d be millions of parties.
      —————————–
      “Being an activist I am very interested in understanding why the polls are where they are as it helps greatly knowing what motivates folk to hold the views they do”.

      The polls are where they are now because the SNP have been governing competently and, despite what is claimed here, highlighting the problems of the Union while standing up for Scotland as best as can be done in the “real world” (not the blogosphere) and not hectoring the electorate about it. Covid has played its big part but only because Nicola Sturgeon has played a blinder through it. Covid does not intrinsically lead to a surge in support for the SNP and independence. Just look at Tory England’s problems. Her (annoying for some on this site) more than competent, apolitical handling of the issue has gained her a lot of trust with the Scottish people. It has seen them view the SNP with more confidence and, on the back of that, be more receptive to the idea of Scottish independence.
      ——————————-
      “You mention you work in a lab for the NHS(Scotland?). If you are still working and not furloughed due to covid, would you raise the matter of the recent votes in Westminster with your colleagues to see if they are aware of the implications of said votes highlighted in the previous article on here”?

      They are already aware of them. As I said on the previous thread, I ensure they get a copy of “The National” to read each day and am happy to discuss the issues with them while avoiding the aforementioned hectoring (as much as possible). Most are already Indies so the conversation will often veer towards that topic.

      I don’t like being abusive or strident. I feel this site tends to bring it out in people. You mention the stifling of debate. What can be more stifling than abusively shouting down anyone who has the temerity to believe Nicola Sturgeon is doing a good job and that, with independence seemingly closer than ever, it is madness to both try to remove her and weaken the SNP? To me, the comments on these threads are a godsend to unionists (several of whom are no doubt posting on it). We shouldn’t be bickering among ourselves and threatening to cripple the movement just as things are finally coming together.

    396. Polly says:

      @ Me Bungo Pony says:
      23 July, 2020 at 12:38 am
      Because Polly, it doesnt put me off.

      So you now keep coming back to a blog where you say people are vile, where you disagree with most comments, which you say makes you feel abused by posts people write in response, where you’ve already stated you have no wish to try to inspire folk who are desperate for inspiration but where you will keep coming to spend time, keep making posts similar (and as abusive as those which you criticise) to those you’ve already made and which seem to have had no traction with anyone much beyond your pal the cat, that seems the sum of your intention. You keep implying posters who used to post no longer do so because of negativity, yet they still read posts – yet if you deplore the negativity why not encourage them to post to alkalinize ones like mine if that’s the case?

      So either you’re a masochist, a misguided optimist who believes that continually needling people of different views will by the act of attrition wear them down and wither them away, or you want to bring out the worst responses from people here so you can say how vile they are. Well I’m not vile, in fact I’ve always been one of Sturgeon’s preferred squeaky clean sort and I’m more than happy to debate anyone on ‘friendly’ terms – but I’m here now, though not an old hand, I’m on the vile side now (and Stuart is obviously the vilest) and the disrespectful comments you’ve made apply to me and I take exception to them. But I still welcome your arrival, or revanche if you’re an old hand, since debate is always healthy and should always be open.

    397. Polly says:

      @ Cat 🙂 what can I say to all your posts?

      For me, apart from Stuart who I know is real since I saw him on Salmond’s show and know he took Dugdale to court, you might not be real or who you say you are. I don’t know you from Adam, so can only go on what you say and how you say it here to judge. And you seem to me to be all over the place: you love making an entrance throwing smoke bombs yet want to PERSUADE us to back a plebiscitary election; you supposedly want us to back a plebiscite ( which you wanted before ) yet don’t realise views have changed so your argument is redundant; you criticise anyone contesting GRA yet later admit you knew little of it when you did so; you shout down anyone criticising Sturgeon telling us all she’s playing a blinder and will show us all how wrong we are yet talk in dark terms of having discussions not fit for btl in public forum for doing ‘stuff’ when she fails; you throw out insults or quick snappy comebacks (I was a big man when you still loved the spice girls) which have no relevance to the person you’re addressing and don’t counter their specific arguments but which show everything to do with your own mode of rebuttal and your personality; you say you studied philosophy and prefer the sophists yet your abilities with rhetoric leave a lot to be desired and your argumentary style does nothing to convince; you tend to fire up quickly about things people say or usually only what you think people say (eg. Asking a question which you assume means F off) yet if other people are angry you patronisingly tell them to calm down; when you do fire up you either misunderstand or misrepresent what people say (being generous I’ll say you misunderstand) yet you expect people who can see and debate clearly through their own annoyance or anger to put their trust in your shady ‘not to be talked about btl ‘ type activities if when time comes? Man, you’re a walking bag of contradictions as much as Sturgeon is. You’re not Sturgeon in disguise are you?

      As for the ‘do not talk about btl ‘ activities you’ve mentioned more than once, if I was planning to be a revolutionary I wouldn’t put my faith in you, but any talk of things like that would draw the fire of authorities yet you’re encouraging wingers to ensnare themselves in it? To even hint at such a thing here, and on more than one occasion, but here, which is considered already the most extkreme form of independence support to some – do you want Stuart’s voice shut down permanently? And on that point you’ve not been here for some time, when did you leave? Why did you stop posting? Why did you come back? You said you’ve been in the army, I believe you also said for six years? Coincidentally it’s been six years since indyref. You claim you hate the army and certainly got out quick enough, but look at the optics – someone with army experience, even if low grade and insignificant, talks in covert terms of meeting up with others if we can’t secure independence by democratic party politics or legal means, to discuss away from public forums what we can do to bring about what we want – trying to turn us into the scottish republican army – that’s what it might look like and even if you mean mild civil protest not condoned by SNP, that can easily be wasted by mobs turning up to cause trouble in our name, or easily infiltrated by agents provocateurs, and none of us are for that, especially your dear leader Sturgeon in whom you say you place such faith. So, no, I don’t know you from Adam and I don’t trust you as far as I could throw you. No offence intended or implied, of course.

    398. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Polly

      That was a “mixed message” reply 🙂

      just to make a couple of points;

      Posting specific replies to specific points being made by other posters may be rather repetitive, however, they are similar in nature because the posts being replied to are similar in nature. My posts are no more repetitive than those of the “malcontents”.

      That none of the “malcontents” are being swayed by them right now is no reason to stop trying. If that was the case, the cause of independence would not have grown as it has and the SNP would still be on about 7-8% of the vote.

      I have never implied posters have left this site because of the negativity. You must have me mixed up with some one else.

      I don’t know what “alkalinize” means in this context. I assume it is predictive text doing its own thing but cannot work out what the real word is.

      ——————————-

      “So either you’re a masochist, a misguided optimist who believes that continually needling people of different views will by the act of attrition wear them down and wither them away, or you want to bring out the worst responses from people here so you can say how vile they are”.

      None of the above. I have never described anyone on this thread as “vile”. Nor implied it. And what is the point of “debate” if the only view allowed is the majority view of the current site population. I would suggest that is not real “debate” at all …. it is just a support network.

      I’m here by accident. I’ve only posted on here a few times before because I never saw the point with literally hundreds of replies normally already posted before I get here. Especially as I assumed they would generally reflect my own pro-indy views. I was shocked to read the views being expressed at the weekend and felt compelled to counter them. That does not make me a troll, a 77th Brigade agent, a unionist or any other of the nonsense thrown at me.

      ———————

      “But I still welcome your arrival, or revanche if you’re an old hand, since debate is always healthy and should always be open”.

      Agreed.

    399. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Polly,

      Thankyou from the heart.

      You have written two first rate BTL posts (a few segments before this one).

      The cat is like whack-a-mole and seems to have a health issue which, perhaps, is best left alone. Anyone who fills 25% of a thread with up to 100 BTL posts of low or no calibre, soon becomes a pariah. A troll that wastes time and resources of those who want to work towards Scottish Independence.

      You have MeBungoPony (anagram Yoon Pub Menu) down to a tee.

      I struggle sometimes as there are clearly passionate YES supporters on here, who have been split into two camps: Sturgeonite and non-Sturgeonite. I land in the one covered by the thesis of this website’s owner Stuart Campbell who I believe has Nicola’s number…

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-betrayer/

      What bewilders me is that few folk seem to have recognised the disarmingly obvious…

      The British a State have played a blinder. They have infiltrated the SNP in order to protect Brtish Empire assets.

      Having witnessed hundreds of years of the British State fight to keep its Empire, often by bloody carnage, is it any surprise with 11,000 employees in the British security services whose raison d’etre is to PROTECT the British State and its assets (such as Scotland) goes on to infiltrate the SNP and cause such havoc?

      Thankyou Polly for calling out the “Yoon Pub Menu” 77th Brigade squaddie (aka MeBungedUpPony). Whilst the shatcat just seems to be a lost soul with a dozen DSM-5 manual disorders craving attention.

      Please, please, please let Alex Salmond publish his book soon.

    400. Me Bungo Pony says:

      @Al-Stuart

      Take off the Tin Foil hat, make yourself a nice cup of tea, grab a biscuit (chocolate is best) and relax. In this instance at least, they are not out to get you.

    401. Polly says:

      @ Me Bungo Pony

      I’ve read again and, you are correct, you never used the word vile. Since you’re choosing to be strictly literal I’ll try to follow suit. You said ‘DUMB AS F**K’ more than once finishing with ‘There! Glad I got that out my system.’ Yet reiterate again ‘as I previously said, DUMB AS F**K.’ And again ‘malcontents are DUMB AS F**K.’ So the first, second and third abusive post was by you not to you. On only your 7th post you started it, so it’s not the site which brings it out. Leaves you no room to complain of feeling attacked. For a while afterwards people were still answering you politely and in detail about why you were wrong, it was only when you kept going with the abuse and derision a minority stopped caring how they responded to you and I don’t blame them. ‘The level of delusion on this thread is remarkable’, ‘said every delusional lemming on this thread’, ‘the descent into madness is complete’, ‘childlike understanding of politics’
      And so you continued. It’s entirely unsurprising I made the error of thinking you actually used the word itself. I retract and rephrase; the condescending and distasteful words you did use merely conveyed that sentiment in spades.

      And having gone back to check that I realise it wasn’t you who talked of previous posters who had deserted the site due to negativity. Being very tired the previous evening I made the mistake of remembering it as being you. I apologise for the error, but my point remains. If you deplore negativity then i would encourage you to be more positive in the way in which you engage since your present course is entirely destructive, obviously not conducive to winning people to your side (as you say you want) even the cat at times is far more persuasive. And yes, the word I meant was alkalinize, as in evening out the acidity (as you no doubt see it) in the present posts.

      Also I said nothing of posting repetitively, the comment was on your failure to vary your argument with each response, not trying to adjust to your audience in media parlance, which usually has more success, that, and not talking down to them helps. The responses to you were varied, most tried to counter your argument from a few directions while you kept beating the one furrow, that obviously makes it more repetitive especially when the derisive word malcontent is constantly applied.

      A couple of other things I noticed though on checking your posts for the word you didn’t say, I noticed what you did say. You said ‘I’ve been arguing for independence for decades’ yet also ‘I wax lyrical on the benefits of independence’ but only if the subject comes up and ‘been to 3 SNP branch meetings in over 15 years’. Having taken no part in the hard graft of active campaigning/leafleting etc., well not unless the weight of carrying all those Nationals into work every day has bowed your back or given you a hernia, you feel compelled to say ‘no reason to stop trying. If that was the case, the cause of independence would not have grown as it has and the SNP would still be on about 7-8% of the vote’. But stop trying what? By your own words you seem not to have done much practically, except hope that snp would win when you voted for them twice. That gain in support you boast of did not come about from anything you did or did not give up doing, it came from some of the posters on this site, and because of people like them who did the hard graft and leg work you obviously wouldn’t. You should be thanking them for years of loyal service not castigating them as you have because they’re flagging now. They’re the real deal, as is Stuart, people who put themselves on the line and make sacrifices for the cause – you certainly haven’t. You did little more than I have done in simply voting for the party, going to a few meetings/marches and contributing financially to snp/yes sites – but saying that, I’ve not seen you say you contributed except presumably through being an snp member for a period, or gone to meetings/marches so perhaps you’ve done less even than me, for all you’re a lifelong supporter. ‘I wont waste all those years of toil’ – not your toil, bud

      By the bye, ‘To foist my views on them would be counter productive’ is a course you chose to take with unionists but think hectoring will work here with yessers, which is interesting in itself and instructive of how you view media bubbles. And ‘You’ve already made up your minds and refuse to budge from your destructive course’ yet your ‘I’m not giving up’ is clearly a war of attrition, so my second guess was entirely correct despite your denial.

      You say media bubbles aren’t real life yet you’ve expended quite the amount of time/energy in the last week reading/posting here. The posters on the site are small in numbers, not enough in themselves to make a difference list voting for another party, so you must believe these people, this blog, is very widely read and has great influence within the independence voting public throughout Scotland or you wouldn’t spend such time; despite saying certain posters are guilty of hubris, you rather confirm there’s some basis for it if they are.

      By your own admission your preferred method of gaining independence is for supporters to follow your method which consists in always carrying the National, only occasionally waxing lyrical about independence and only when the subject comes up, voting always snp x 2, and getting on with painting and talking about huts and their colours and leaving the party and actual activists to fight for and to get you your independence when they can, while you expend energy hectoring those same people on the internet. Had some posters here followed your practice the 8% would never have risen at all.

      Also,
      That Newburgh turbine site you say was toxic, and filled with ‘nutters’ who posted your address to encourage nasty things to you yet you also say the only thing nasty to happen was to the girlfriend of your opponent and her car being vandalised, pretty obvious which side was really most toxic in that scenario however the man behaved online, and given I’ve now fully evaluated your own contribution online here I’d warrant a lot of any toxicity was emanating from your less than good self.

      ‘Wow, so many people to reply to!’ And ‘I go out for the afternoon and come back to this’ Your too obvious delight at being given an opening to continue your war of attrition means though I stand by the belief genuine debate should always be open and welcome I personally won’t be responding to you again. Had I not been so tired previously to realise the first abuse was yours I would not have responded to you at all or not in the half encouraging way I did. To keep responding now is too much like giving a abusive malcontent (which is obviously what you are here, to throw your own epithet back at you) what it wants, and what it enjoys too much. So I’ll be behaving to you as as snp has done to a lot of us.

      Irresolute princes to avoid present dangers follow a neutral path and are generally ruined. So let’s wait and see how correct old Mac really is before recommending him or talking about anyone playing blinders.

      One last quote ‘There! Glad I got that out my system.’



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